36. An Evening with John Jude Palencar

by | Mar 17, 2021 | 0 comments

An Evening with John Jude Palencar

 

Join George and Bradley as they talk with John Jude Palencar, the artist behind the infamous paintings in Byron Preiss’ treasure hunt The Secret. Are the cities correct? How did Byron bury Cleveland? Is there a method to this madness? Dive in and find out.

 

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George Ward
Bradley Bradley Stop messing around but on your butt on your professional podcast hat we only got one shot to get this right I have no idea what I’m doing. I shit I wonder what this button does that’s pretty cool. Any more buttons

Bradley Hodges
resume does not like my nice webcam. So it’s using my laptop’s webcam. So I apologize for the low quality.

George Ward
You can change

John Jude Palencar
from from the one side. It’s highlighting your dimple.

Bradley Hodges
Yeah, it’s my good side. Yeah.

John Jude Palencar
Trying to Alright, get my heights already here. Last time I did this with Josh I was I had the character the camera on a brick because I thought they wanted a long shot. But then that okay was in a basement or something.

George Ward
Yeah. So, so somebody released a tweet today that said, we think that they’re going to do two more secret episodes. And expedition unknown.

John Jude Palencar
Haven’t heard anything? Whether he began or not, I don’t know. You know, it’s, it’s whatever, I think serves the story that they’re trying to. They’re trying to write I think we got a you know, a great time. He did so many things in such a short time for that Brooklyn episode where they presented the award to Jason Jason was his name Yeah. Jason group at Yeah, one the who didn’t win, but who discovered the Boston treasure and I mean, he flew down from Boston then and then he went to New York, you know, I was coming in and the other two guys from Cleveland or Brian, Brian and end and then they brought the other two guys in from Chicago. So that was a pretty pretty cool production that they were able to do and photograph it there. We had to be very careful with the historical society there because the art I mean, I left like a camera bag on a table on a head leather on it. So they were concerned that my camera bag didn’t damage the leather table. I mean, everything was like antique and hold. It was like something that I kept it niemals library.

George Ward
But that was like the perfect finale to that whole series like first episodes just an introduction to the hot second episode, you try to find a cast and you can’t third episode, you find a cast. So you get the Chicago guys the Cleveland guys, Sandy, the kids you all together to meet up?

John Jude Palencar
Yeah, I think I think it was fine. The thing I found just kind of funny as well, what was the name again? Prove Jason. Jason’s Right. Um, fashion was was kind of, I don’t want to say he was luxury Jack’s, but he was selling him and saying, you know, people are just overthinking this thing. And then I point out how it spills Boston across the bottom of the page, you know, and it’s like, see, maybe you went over thought that part a little bit too much. So it was it was a neat episode. And I think what I liked about it is that, as I mentioned, I don’t know where the, the treasures are, or where they’re buried separately, and I knew where Clevelands was, and that was it. That’s the only one I wanted to. But that’s when Jason was going over some of the clues ignited some of my memories of the, of these packets of information that Byron was sent to me. And so when you see that cover, and you see the the those things hanging, every other has a name for them, but the panels of fabric that are hanging off her sleeves, the the shapes in there are the shapes of the flags on the wire inside that’s across the bay from the, from that ball field. And I had mentioned nicely as I mentioned to other people in the past that mentioned this to Josh about, you know, somewhere in some construction sites, some guy’s going to run across one of these and I know what he has, but they got Jason beat him to it and it couldn’t have been the timing on that. I mean, it is it does read kind of like a you know, kind of like a movie and stuff. So it was a pretty exciting I thought you know, but you know, it was it was kind of kind of an interesting thing with all the all the symbolism that was involved and how they they walked through. You know, the parks there and I’m trying to think where else in the arc of the hair did mimic the way he caught the

baseball diamond. Yeah, the baseball diamond

and I’m trying to think what else that they had there they had the, the sculpture or against the building to it. kind of Byron was notorious for doing that. Pick those words off that that building and what people have to remember, well, I can’t really aid them in their, their treasure hunts directly, because because of legal reasons. You know, you have to think like Byron, how he had to bury them. He had to be. And Jason may have mentioned this, about you, he had to be in and out very quickly, you know, he had to be able to go in into clandestine type fashion and dig a hole very quickly and put the treasure box in there.

George Ward
Now you were with him, right when he was buried in the casket in Cleveland, in the Greek cultural gardens was that kind of like what it was like, he just ran in dug a hole. And then he was out super quick.

John Jude Palencar
What I remember about the Cleveland treasury, he was very quick. And I was I was operating as lookout. And when I went back there to see where he had buried, I cannot tell where he buried it. And he had just, he had just dug that hole. There was not even any fresh, dark, darker dirt because of the moisture from him digging down. It was just like, like, nothing had happened. Wow, it was like it was pretty, pretty magical. And I mean, the this is done in a different time, I’m sure like, you have to, you know, I don’t want people damaging places, digging up digging up things without permission. I mean, in some areas, if you look cross eyed into a tree, they’re gonna rescue it, you know. So I think those were different times when Byron was burying these treasures. And when you when you think about it, you know, there were things were much more relaxed, or even though there was an environmental movement, and there weren’t as, as many as you know, protect our parks kind of ordinances and rules and laws, you know, we could hitchhike around the country back then. And you could try to kind of camp out along a river and nobody would really kind of say anything, you know, and,

George Ward
like, like, that’s a good point, though. It wasn’t much different time back then everything was a lot safer. People didn’t really pay as much attention in the parks. Now, like what searchers are running into is, say you live in New York and you want to solve the puzzle in San Francisco. Yeah, you fly over there. But how do you get tools? Like how do you take a six foot shovel through TSA? Like how did Byron do that?

John Jude Palencar
You know, he a lot of times he flew to some places, and he had you know, he had this little shovel with Him. And sometimes it was a larger struggle. Sometimes it was a little military shovel, treated the Boy Scouts, no, no, that type of shovel. So

George Ward
Sandy told a story about that. Like after one of the after their first date, he pulled out this little foldable shovel and went on buried.

John Jude Palencar
It’s funny to that she because I remember when he first started seeing I was and I would actually I didn’t realize that I was hanging out with Byron about the same time that he met Sandy. And so I would stay at his apartment there. It’s sometimes I had use of his apartment when he was when he was away, which was great because it was almost like having my own apartment in your face or pretending was what he would call if I were if we were there together. You know, I was down on the couch. And he would we would go out to dinner and stuff and get back in about I think it was around 12 At night he called Sandy who was a publicist for Bantam Books at the time, I think and she was working out of her out of the west coast office in San Francisco. So it was calling her religiously every night like at 12 o’clock at night. You know, I’d go out on his balcony and have a smoke and stuff anyone over here with the grits. He was so gracious to let me stay at his place. There. But those were the good old times it was New York was interesting. It was you know, it was taxi driver, New York with all the steam coming up, the Steam Store comes up on the pipes here. But there was a certain danger and rawness to New York City at that time. It was very colorful, very, you know, you always see something interesting happening on the streets there. every once awhile when I post something, I want to thank you guys to George Ward and my son kid for being the surrogates for my Facebook page that I don’t really, I access, I can see what everybody else sees. But allow me to post my things and sometimes related messages and things.

George Ward
You’re very welcome. So, John, one of the biggest questions that searchers have right now. Everybody sort of wants a copy of this book. They want a copy of the first edition book because the pictures are vivid. It’s really valuable. It’s kind of rare, but

John Jude Palencar
I’m at my house by the way. And the Japanese edition I found my Japanese edition Finally,

George Ward
well, you can sell them if you want to influx of cash because they’re kind of expensive.

John Jude Palencar
I owe the knotch I had I don’t have much left, you know from that from these times. You know, I mean, I am still trying to find the preliminary drawings anyway. So go ahead you were.

George Ward
So the thing that people can get their hands on anybody can go to Barnes and Noble and buy one of these like $15 reprint copies of the books from from iBooks. The biggest question that everybody has is, can you use those like can you see everything in the images that you need to see to solve the puzzle?

John Jude Palencar
I would always say high res is better, higher resolution is better if the printing is not up to snuff, or if they’re printing on an inferior stock. It it may impinge on some of the some of the visual clues maybe some of the tinier ones. So I must clean up the paper stock in that version I’ve never seen once I can’t really make an accurate assessment on all that’s okay.

George Ward
That’s okay. Don’t want to get that money, huh? Yeah, well, the thing I

John Jude Palencar
guess I get enough things in by some of the people who were still don’t believe I don’t know where the treasures are, they somehow Are. Still don’t believe me. So they send me their solutions. I just got a FedEx the other week and say, This poor guy has like, spent money on a FedEx delivery. And I’m like, Dude, I don’t know where they are, you know, you. You’re better off contacting John Colby. And I think it’s pretty tower press over there. In the in the Hamptons. So anyway, that I think Hi, all I can say in the general statement, the higher resolution, the better. Okay, sometimes, it seems like there’s some pretty good scans online, you know, and most books, magazines, if they’re high res, they’re only printed to a maximum of 300 dpi, 350 dpi, for actual physical print, and that’s even back then on, on the stock that we use, and we did use a uncoated stock on the inside of the book, the cover too, was a little discouraging, because that cover is so big, that I painted all these details in there. And when they put it even on the cover, which is one of the larger reproductions of the book, is the cover. Something’s really shrunk, shrunk down all the little reflections and the iris of the ice has disappeared. And, you know, the tear ducts and things like that aren’t shown. That’s why when Joshua thing you said there’s so much sharper and different in real life is because I would always kind of go beyond what the the printing was. Then any bit now. And I also worked larger, usually you try to work towards what size reproduction, it’s going to ultimately end up being. But I had this I have this view of like I sell to collectors that collect my work. And you know, some of my paintings are good enough to you know, not that I put them over a fireplace mantel, but their, you know, their fireplace mantel worthy as far as size or have God forbid if they they match their couch or something like that. Back to their couch. But so yeah, some of them have more detail than even we were able to capture and, but the crucial things were there. Okay, so I think like I said, I can’t I can’t comment on the the new version. It seems like people on Amazon are complaining about it from what are some of the comments that I hear from some of the the buyers or purchasers of that book. And that’s one of their main complaints that some of the mechanic, the mechanical production pages are kind of offset within the book. And that the, the the reproductions aren’t quite up to snuff, you know that they need to be a little bit better. So but that’s what I’ve, I can’t even see.

George Ward
They’re literally, the easiest way to explain them to you is there they seem like they’re scan on a regular scanner, and then print it out on a laser printer, like their dog and

Bradley Hodges
muddy, very dark. Yeah.

John Jude Palencar
I don’t know if they’re taking them down a local Kinkos or not.

George Ward
So another thing that irritates new searchers is, we often refer to these paintings by city. So we’re talking about painting number one, we refer to it as the San Francisco painting. And that irritates people. Because some people think that’s in like Peoria, or wherever, are we able to name any of them? I know, we’ve got Castle hat, we’ve got medieval scarecrow. But are there names for any of the others?

John Jude Palencar
No, I’ve never really titled them. And I always thought that’s, that’s up to the, to the people seeking the treasure. I mean, whatever. You know, what am I trying to say? And that outline, whatever legend you’re trying to use for your own treasure, salt is up to you. I know, notice a lot of them, like you said, are being identified by city. But I’ve gotten some things that people that have sent me or they’ve mailed them to me. The common knowledge of what city that may be sometimes it’s a different city. Yeah. And it’s a different city. And they’re entitled to that. I mean, that’s the whole the whole thing here of activating people’s brains and researching, you know, history and whatever it takes to get there. And they’re entitled to their own opinion.

George Ward
So I guess the next question, I guess the biggest question is Um, are the cities that are commonly accepted? Correct. We’ve tried to work this out for a while we know that, that Byron confirmed New York had a cast. So you confirm Houston had a cast, Sean Kelly confirmed Montreal had a cast. And Sandy Sandy confirmed it on a video that’s on YouTube. She confirmed San Francisco and you confirm Milwaukee? The only cities that are left are Charleston Roanoke, New Orleans and St. Augustine. Or any of those Correct?

John Jude Palencar
I don’t know. I think I think they are. I think they are. I mean, I’m trying to remember, we have the UFC, I think they are I think, I think they are they’re pretty they have a couple of the things that I see I’ve seen people post online, they seem to be going in the right direction for the right cities for the right image. Some of them are very obvious. Yeah. There’s other signs, but they’re, they’re pretty much you know, people been working on this for a number of decades. Now. So I think they discerned the general geographical location.

George Ward
Nice. Okay, well, that’s super helpful. That’s, it’s interesting, because it took so long to do that. It didn’t really Yeah, it really wasn’t. No, it was, like 2000. Was it five? I think it was 2005 when Robert Fox found the latitude and longitude coordinates and painting. Yeah. And that was when, like, everything just sort of changed for the secret. We all of a sudden, really, yeah. What was it? When did this happen? 2005 I think it was 2005. It was after they found Cleveland. Right? Okay. He found the latitude and longitude coordinates, which looking back on it as the simplest thing. You know, it’s like one in Africa that. And then once that happened, we knew what cities went with which paintings but we didn’t know which verses went, you know? Which leads me to the next question is, that seems like a simple thing. And if we can’t even figure that out, are we doing this puzzle wrong? Have we? Have we sort of brute forced ourselves in the middle of the puzzle? And Skinner?

John Jude Palencar
I’ve mentioned, I mentioned, I don’t know, finishes to Josh, I’ve talked to a few people in this. I mean, here’s not something that’s gonna bake your noodle, as the Oracle would say, is that the, you know, the first painting the last painting, or arches, and they’re both coastal paintings? Yeah, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of means does that mean that they’re, that these paintings go in a chronological order from west to east, or east to west, you know, or to do west to east of the east to west back? And then somehow, there’s another kind of flip thing? So

Bradley Hodges
yes, so I, I mentioned, when we did, we do meet ups in different different suspected cities, with the community and just a lot of fun. And during our San Francisco meetup, we had a conversation about the moons in the background of the painting. The fact that there’s 11 moons, this is your first painting, and my interpretation of that, which is probably way off base, it’s just my interpretation of the art was that these 11 moons are the other 11 worlds that you’re going to go to throughout your journey in the secret.

John Jude Palencar
I know are they different? Like that’s another thing I was trying to think. Yeah.

Bradley Hodges
But that’s, that was kind of my my interpretation of it. And I enjoy thing. Give it that way. Yeah.

George Ward
I feel like John’s just gonna have fun going. I don’t know, man. I can’t.

Bradley Hodges
Oh, yeah. The puzzle would honestly be ruined for everybody. If it was just one thing.

John Jude Palencar
I can’t remember some of the stuff that Byron and I taught. I mean, we worked on this thing. I was still a senior at Columbus College of Art and Design. And I started the first initial paintings, I think it may have been the boom with a dragon on her robe. I’m not gonna say any locations. And I think Castle hat was in there was was kind of second I had then moved, I moved, I went back, I went with my tail between my legs back to my parents house, set up my studio in the front living room. And started to complete the series in there. So we had worked Byron, I had worked on this for so long, and it discussed so many different angles. And I in fact, I think I was still working on stuff while he was varying these things. And he’d call back and I think he would have an idea on something and then I’d say, hey, Byron, what about this and he’d say, go with that. And he’d say, I’ll send you a you know, a packet in the mail and I get some photos and he said, put this in, put that in, but do this, and I try a few things to disguise things and then we would go From there, you know, and I can say that, and just we just went on for a year, I remember flying into New York a couple of times, and we had a, we had a good time, we had a meeting with the writers and with Jo Ellen was there and John poured and Sean, Sean Kelly Ted Man. Yep. Those guys were funny because one of them had just come off the movie, I think, Animal House or was starting it. And another guy was working for National Lampoon. So you know, there was always some good one one liners there and, and that and so I forgot to do what your question was, I’m starting to get off on a tangent here. I’m kind of going back to my memory to the city and these restaurants around the corner, some corner restaurant on the east side, you

George Ward
know, honestly, forget my question. I’d rather the story now,

John Jude Palencar
you know, eating food and talking about stuff. And then a lot of what Byron and I did, the other people would be kind of, they were working on their part of the book. So Byron, work with them. And then he would come to me, and then we would work together privately, even from over 10 or pariatur. Lloyd over to Africa, who else was in there?

George Ward
So it seems like from all the people that we’ve talked to about this book, and I think you’ve said something similar, it seems like Byron treated this sort of like the US government treated the what is the SR 71 blackbird, where everybody sort of knew their part. Yeah.

John Jude Palencar
Yeah. Well, they didn’t know what their part was. They knew they were building a prep, they didn’t know what it was for. I always have this feeling. And this is just my own. My own curiosity that somehow the front part of the book is tied in. With the treasure part, it seems like there’s like when you’re looking at the book, there’s two parts, you have your field guide to the fair people and the contemporary versions, like the tougher werewolf or the maitre demon type of graphical terror tears, this is when we had typewriters and computers. And so, but there’s something there was something about that, I remember bringing up by I said, Byron, let me just discard this other stuff. For just this, let’s do a treasure book, let’s make it more elaborate. Let’s make it more like, like kick Williams masquerade, which was one of the inspirations for the secret. And he said, No, this has got to be in there, we have to do this part. So now, whether the book company was saying, look, it’s got to be more than just this little 12 page thing, you know, it’s got to be bigger so so he came up with this broad Ted Man and and the writers and Byron has kind of this conduit, you know, publisher that coordinated like herding cats, I guess you could say, in a way. And then we had this other part of the book, but I always thought somehow how we wrote these things, and some of the, the names on this and how he worked with these guys, if he somehow has hidden something in there. I mean, this is going to be another thing Baker noodles, and maybe there’s some code in the actual writing after he, after he edited it, you know, like the first letter of every third word, you know, you know, some kind of like, you know, Enigma machine type type thing going on. So, that was one of my, my getting back to the SR 71. But yeah, we he would only give me certain parts, he knew the whole thing. And everybody knows the story, the SR 70 ones, each manufacturer got a different part. They even created a company to buy titanium from the Russians, who they ultimately ended up using the plane to spy on itself. You know, that they use for the whole on that. But yeah, it was kind of like that. So like I tell people, I don’t know where they are. Cleveland was the only one. Like I said, I acted as lookout. I didn’t even know what side he buried under me when Andy and puts us the other guy’s name and Ryan, Ryan Ryan found it. They went to the one side and then he went to this. I didn’t even know what side he buried. He buried it. So he was very crafty.

George Ward
Yes, it seems so consumed. So yeah, it’s so we’ve often pointed out it’s kind of weird that that book, the back part of the book is not written like a regular book. It’s instead of one page. It’s there’s two columns of text on each page, which is odd, like no other books really written like that. So there has to be some sort of reason.

John Jude Palencar
You’re right there, isn’t there? Yeah. There’s not actually paragraph paragraph. It’s two. It’s two columns. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The

Bradley Hodges
formatting is very unique. Yeah.

John Jude Palencar
Yeah. Now you have li Alex J. The designer about that.

George Ward
Yeah, Alex says he doesn’t remember Alex.

John Jude Palencar
I think Alex is a mason or something like that. You know, he’s put some things in knots.

George Ward
Oh god, you’re gonna get us in trouble.

Bradley Hodges
Talking about seek clues being possibly in other places. during your interview with Josh gates. Recently, you talked about your, your artwork with all of the trees and the box and kind of your in the background. And that really sparked a fire in the community. Talking about all of your works and where there are kids hidden to the secret and everything. So if you wouldn’t mind expounding upon that comment from the show and maybe helping us,

John Jude Palencar
I have to think about it. It’s Danny Ethan esteem, that’s stupid. No, I think I’ve paid homage to Byron and subsequent work. Some of my paintings are, I guess, you could say are autobiographical. There have been times that I do hide things in them repeatedly. I sometimes even swear at people in some of the small highlights. Or give people the finger or say hi, and there’s different things that are actually written in there. But there are also other visual and illusionistic symbols that are in the, or in the images. I remember.

Right about the time I was working, finishing up with a secret, I started working for Time Life books, and we worked on a series of books called the enchanted world, they were done about 10 of the 16 volumes. And so they’re books on dragons, and ghosts and night creatures and wizards and witches, I think was the first book. And one of the books was Mythical Beasts was one of them. And it was a painting of a Minotaur, which coincidentally which I thought Josh would bring this up. The image I did to the Minotaur appeared in the movie, the second Bill and Ted movie villains journey. Yeah, and it’s in the seance scene. And if you look in the seance scene, and she opens up the page book, there’s a scored figure in there, it’s actually a minotaur is it but they took they took it as a demon. And so it’s in black and white on the page of this magical book. And Bill and Ted are like circling the table. And the other is his mom or something that says read this book for the stands for that is. And in that knows of that Minotaur when I did this for Time Life Book, I put a a uterus with fallopian tubes, an egg in there. And I told them after the fact I told the art director, publisher, everybody and they were like, Are you kidding? And they were like, and then it’s like the thing you can’t unsee what you see. So Subsequently, I started hiding things and, and then I did another book of dragons. And the back of the anatomy of the dragon on the back, I put a lady part. And they didn’t see it at first. And until I pointed it out, then of course they cannot see it. So and they met, they still continue to hire me. So it was funny, because then I would start hiding stuff in and this is kind of an offshoot of the things I used to do early on, you know, in high school. And there was a book called Sexual sublimation in advertising or something like that. Some guy had these really far out theories that every advertisement you see, had hidden genitals and all kinds of stuff in anything. And so I read that in high school I was I think he’s stretching in this one, but, you know, you’d look in the bubbles of a of a, you know, a pint of beer or something. And there would be some word symbols or something in there. Sometimes the guy really stretched it. But with that, and just I’ve always liked symbolic paintings, the paintings, agronomists, Bosch and bregal. And a few other DaVinci are not to Vinci. But Salvador Dali was another very early influence in his, his way of do doing illusionistic things. So for example, like the hallucinogenic Toria door, you know, you can see a man’s face and the Venus de Milo is buddy. And so all these things kind of combined. And I think one reason one of the, when Byron and I first met, I had a one top student award at the Society of Illustrators student competition. In New York, I got a scholarship to Paris, France, and to study at the illustrators workshop there. But Byron had seen my work. And I think that put him on to some of the symbolic thing for the secret because he saw that I had some kind of symbols and things in there and hidden things hidden and he picked up on it. He’s a pretty smart guy, he could really kind of zone in on something. And I actually signed my first job with him a contract. There. I met with him in New York before I flew to Paris, France that year. And so it was I was often on running with him. But yeah, so getting back to your symbolic thing. Yes, there’s many symbols hidden in my stuff. And some of them may relate to the secret. Some of them may not some of them are personal, autobiographical. You can in fact, if you even look at the, the long they’re called pan when they panel the yarn on the HP Lovecraft pieces, you know, there’s plenty of things that are in there, some of them Our personnel some of them are to do with the store he now a lot of those were that was in the anthology of HP Lovecraft work. So if you look at those covers, some of those are symbols from the stories, but some of them are some of my things, the mucin reverie cover for Charles de lint that’s directly kind of related to the secret a little bit, I could see a little box here and a little, a little figure there, you know, kind of going off and trying to think if there’s any shovel in there, I don’t think there’s a shovel on that one. But, you know, I have to still keep the mystery going. I think, you know, I in Stein said, the most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious, and I think it’s true, there’s something that tickles your brain, you know, or you, you see something that you know,

that can’t quite see just yet, but it gets your curiosity up. And the pursuit of the solution is sometimes extremely beautiful thing to do, and to experience. So

Bradley Hodges
I really appreciate you expounding upon that. You mentioned a little bit earlier that somebody sent you a FedEx box, and that you receive all sorts of things in the mail letter. Kind of thing. Yeah. So why don’t we touch on maybe crazy people or people that are overly enthusiastic to contacting you and sending you things? And

John Jude Palencar
crazy and crazy, I think some of them are maybe frustrated? I don’t know. i My understanding is, is that the new version of the book has a form in back to center solve in it. And they that’s John Kobe’s responsibility to respond to those. And I don’t know if he only responds to the positive ones. And maybe nobody has solved anything. You know, I don’t know where they are that close. They send me stuff. And I don’t know how I can help legally I am. Since the property of the book has been purchased by another business entity that contracts, intellectual property, everything involved with this book is under brick tower press and John Cobis. Umbrella since he purchased virus properties after his his untimely death. And so I can’t really say anything, so can when people send me comments that I’ve had them call my house, I’ve had them send me packets in the mail. You know, you can find out where anybody lives nowadays, I guess on the net, which I have. I don’t know how to respond to them at first, and I could respectfully call them and stuff and some of them don’t believe me, they think lying. I think too, because I I’ve kind of dangling things in front of people’s faces as far as some of the clues and the symbol stuff and everything. But that keeps it interesting, I think. And I think you always have to keep hope alive. And I think some of these people have to realize that I I can’t help them both legally. And I just don’t know where the treasures are. I mean, I’ve said that repeatedly. I can remember like when I talked about Jason crew pet and the Boston treasure that was salt. When he started mentioning some of those things I remember, you know, I can go back to a few fragments of conversations I had with Byron, for a packet that he sent me remember now the photo of like, oh, Viner inside and stuff. And I remember telling him, Byron, I can’t put this vote. And if I put it in, if people are gonna know right away, what we’re talking about, you know, so I said, How about this? So I put in the suggest cycles, how do you say that? substituents Yeah, that were the little kind of fours or whatever the tiny flags are, and still make it look like some type of Celtic design and work it in with the spelling of boss and also, you know, there’s, there’s a number of things where you were close, and things are blended, that I had completely forgotten about, you know, and it was very, like I said, a very fluid, he was off doing his thing. And we were talking, I was thinking I was sending him work, he was very treasures, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on and, and on top of it. It was you know, 40 plus years ago, you know, I challenge anybody to remember all these little kind of intimate details of how you’ve done something, you know, from 40 years ago, I can remember big things about certain things. But like I said, I remember the one time I got I was burning clues in my kitchen in Columbus before I moved home and I remember almost getting sick to my stomach. I had so much smoke in the apartment and in my kitchen. Because I had a steel bucket there I was burning these things in and I actually got like, nauseous and thank God nobody called the police because or the fireplace because there’s a lot of smoke coming out of my kitchen window. And we didn’t have fire this was before Oh, smoke detectors. So that was one episode where, and with those clues being burned, my memories went out with a lot of those too. So

George Ward
I like to tell people this. You and I, we don’t talk often but we talk a decent amount. I live in St. Augustine, there’s a cast in St. Augustine and that cast was not on my mantle. If you won’t give me a clue, I don’t know that you’re gonna give random other people a cliff. So like, I don’t know.

John Jude Palencar
I can’t I can’t do that. I mean, I

George Ward
will, it would ruin the puzzle. Like, what’s the point of a puzzle?

John Jude Palencar
Like, you know, I was joking around with Josh and then he sent me that beautiful shot of I don’t know if you saw that. I have the uncensored shot. But I came up with some clues for him. And I just, you know, I hit did I get a ring? And he was like, going with it. Like, oh, shit, I better stop this because I want to. And sure enough, I got that. That picture. It’s with the sound man like and Brian is a camera guy. They’re a great group of people. I mean, when they were here at the studio, they they just very professional. We had a good time. We I mind maybe a minute and a half on that episode, that first episode and I’m trying to think it’s like they were here for like six hours. We had coffee and doughnuts and we’re hanging out having a good time. Popcorn, I forget what else we have. He seems like well, my neighbor’s didn’t know what the heck was going on. Because it’s like a three try hit up like a panel, box truck. And there was a van and all these people piled. There were two producers standing outside the studio. Dark coats on it look like FBI agents or CIA. I think they probably thought that guy finally got busted. He’s probably got a grow operation in that building out there and back there because they were just legalized. Exactly. I just got I gotta I just got contacted, I have to respond to them. I got contacted by a medical group operation here in Ohio. They want me to come up and maybe work, collaborate with them on some kind of corporate identity thing, that stuff. And it’s probably from seeing the work in the secret because they did a review of this book at the Toronto Star when it was first came out in Toronto and the guy like in my workday, headshot art, so I can I can see. It’s a fair, it’s a fair assessment, you know,

Bradley Hodges
it would need to be in crushed velvet and blacklight responses. Yeah, right. Yeah.

George Ward
Put one of these paintings on crushed velvet. That’d be great. That’s the prince use itself. Do you? Do you have a favorite of these paintings? I know, you’ve said that they’re your earlier work. And they’re not your favorite paintings that you’ve ever done, you know, overall, but out of the 12 Do you have a Do you have a favorite?

John Jude Palencar
Favorite? Gosh, I do like the castle, half painting. And

George Ward
you’ve used that on T shirts and promos, and

John Jude Palencar
I should give any one of those. Those were those were put on a t shirt. I was artists guest of honor at Balticon was it Balticon? Yeah, cuz I did another one in Norwescon. They use Oh, no, they use another one from another one of the the strange but true stare toilet tails.

Yeah, those were put on there. I think we’re trying to think what else they run buttons to I think

I saw I gave. I was a little sad. But I gave secret button to Josh gates. After we did our thing in Boston, I want to have a little special remembrance of it. And it was a button that Byron gave me. But I realized Byron gave me too. So I just found another one. I wanted Josh Gates has one. And he had handed these out. When I think the book was done, but while we were working on it, too, we had a top secret stamp that said the secret. So every time I did something, whether it was a drawing, or at the back of the painting, it’s stamped it with this rubber stamp that sent the secret so everything had a stamp on it. And that was kind of a kind of a cool thing. I think I get off the track here again, guys. No, no.

Bradley Hodges
We really saying we’ll have that stamp.

John Jude Palencar
No, it’s got to be around somewhere. I know. I didn’t I didn’t get rid of it. I know. The

Bradley Hodges
reason we asked you is because we recently came into possession of a piece of memorabilia that hasn’t stamp on it. And we’re trying to have the stamp reproduced just so we can have fun with it. Yeah. As a piece of memory for it. But we had one made but it’s a little different. Yeah, it came out horribly wrong. Ours was I

John Jude Palencar
think it was New Times Roman or something like that.

George Ward
Yeah, it’s a it’s it’s that simple script. It’s there’s nothing special about it. Really well. I

John Jude Palencar
mean, I had a couple you know, I would test it out and stuff and a lot of times that near the end it was just like hey, but somebody’s got like two Three times on the back of the painting or the drawing whatever it was, you know, became part of that whole whole thing.

George Ward
It irritates stamp makers, because it’s in reverse. Right? It’s just a big blob of ink. And they’re like etching, this is going to be a pain in the ass and they can’t really,

John Jude Palencar
yeah, I can see, I don’t know where mine is, I have to look for it. I know, I didn’t throw it out. I did find the one button though, which I was happy because I, I mean, I wanted Josh to have it because I think you know, just the promotion and being able to keep what Byron did a lion and how the community like, you know, we’ve we’ve talked about how it’s brought people together and relationships, and maybe the marriages, and friendships and things like that. And I think that’s a cool part of this whole thing. As long as you don’t damage anything, you know. And like I said, you know, get permission to dig if you have to. Yeah, we do have a good, good location.

Bradley Hodges
So you George and I are a prime example of the friendship. illustration. You were just speaking go. Yeah, that’s how that’s how we ended up meeting and we’ve become very good friends since

George Ward
at two o’clock in the morning in the middle of Fort Raleigh National Park. And then me and Rachel, we’ve decided that we can’t wait for a cast anymore. I don’t know if I told you that. Bradley. We’re gonna get married sometime next year. The end of next year. Oh, wow. That’s

Bradley Hodges
exciting. Yeah,

George Ward
I can’t I can’t do and I was talking to John about something too. Like, if I find something, if I find a cast, everybody’s just gonna say I cheated. So it’s like, I can’t I can’t really even dig anymore. So yeah. tainted? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, so next year, we’re gonna get married. We’re gonna make John come though, you’re gonna have to fly down to Florida,

John Jude Palencar
this pandemic thing is going it’s been Oh, it is. Because I gotta, I hopefully have a like I supposed to be teaching at a university on the east coast here. And the fall, I’m going to be visiting. visiting artists there. So

George Ward
let’s see. Speaking of that, your your number one fan, Linda Spalding, whom? I know I know, you know that name. For that name for she she asked if you have any. If you you have any traveling shows, or you’re you’re gonna have your paintings traveling around anytime in the near future?

John Jude Palencar
Well, right now I have two like I said, I I may have a solo show here, in 2020 22, in on the east coast, but I want to make sure everything goes right here. Because so things are so tentative, with the universities and teaching and how they’re setting things up. It looks like, you know, things are gonna get close back to normal by the time we fall rolls around. Yeah, everybody gets their vaccines. And I mean, we’ll still be walking around with a bunch of outlaws with masks on and stuff. But I think I think there’ll be more relaxed until they get down to a certain case count, I think I think in Ohio, here, they want to lift all restrictions, once we get down to so many cases per 100,000 people, we get below a certain amount, then they probably think they got another run. But you know, now they’re talking about the new variants. But who’s to say, you know, people say things all the time. And even though a lot of people have passed away because of this, we’re still being where they said we would

George Ward
you’ve often told me that Byron’s goal in writing this was that he wanted to write it in a way that a handicapped person in a library could could solve the bug and could find the treasures. And even in the back of the book, the form kind of insinuates that that should be the case, that someone without going to any of these cities should be able to figure out the exact spot and then explain it in a way that fits, you know, in a paragraph. But the thing that we’ve never been able to figure out is what age group he was looking at, was he was he targeting children? Did he think children could sit in a library and and figure this out? Or was it more geared towards adults? Do you know what age group Byron had in mind when he was writing this book or what age group it was marketed towards?

John Jude Palencar
You know, it’s funny because usually when you when you do a book proposal, and Byron was also was called the book packager, you know, he was the kind of central hub to coordinate authors and writers and you know, he would work with Arthur C. Clarke or Ray Bradbury, but he’d bring in an illustrator and every get everybody to work together. And usually when you do that, you have a target audience that you’re trying to direct that book toward, but this I think, you know, I think it was a little bit older audience may be mid teens and up and if you notice, the first treasure was found by some young teenage boys, but it also speaks to a little bit older crowd because I mean, when you have a character called the Tupper werewolf, I think a housewife could, at the time without sounding sexist or anything could could identify with that, or a typographical tear. And I’m trying to think, you know, record collectors, we tried to hit on everybody in that field guide section of the book. And I think it was anybody from, like I said, teens and probably young adult and up, that would, that would be a fan of the book, I think he saw the appeal of Katt Williams a masquerade book. And that went over from little kids all the way. And in fact that, you know, some of the illustrations are very colorful, and almost like children’s book type illustrations anyway, so that book appeal to a vast variety of people. But I’ve come to think that we never really talked about

what the target audience was, it was all about constructing these paintings, at least from my point of view, and

working with these clues, and how diabolical we could be, as far as how, how clever and how we could change it up so that one solve would not a clue a treasure would be solved in exactly the same way as another, even though there was a framework for making

George Ward
wood, wood, the seasoned artists, the now John Palin car, if you had to do this, again, what what would you have done differently if if the seasoned artists did it rather than the young John valance,

John Jude Palencar
I would have spent more time on some of the some of the covers and put more in there, I think I, I would have probably we wouldn’t need a little bit more time to I think, to really, to really make make them even deeper, the both the verses in the clues. Now by by that I mean, you know, maybe more resolution on a clues that would that would take a person step by step, and maybe by the solving of one clue would lean on to, to another clue. And that’s kind of what has happened in indirect way. I mean, Andy, and what’s his name again, if Brian, Brian, and Brian Xin, and others,

George Ward
and he’s gonna get a kick out of this, because everybody remembers.

John Jude Palencar
We’re staying at the same hotel there in New York. Before we went over to Brooklyn, and it was like, we could have dinner together, they didn’t let us know we were there together, we could have a great time we have a lonely, like, really had such one or Jahad champions. Anyway, um, what was your question? Again, you were talking about

George Ward
what would you do differently?

John Jude Palencar
I would have done even more complex paintings and would have egged Byron on to do even more detailed verses so that they were just more just more details such things that would maybe have also been, which may maybe meant some misdirection in there or misdirection with a good reflection that got you off into another area. And like I said, that did happen with, with Andy and Brian, you had there was, it took the Internet to solve that actually, believe it or not, yeah. I don’t know if people know the story behind that. But by them typing in the words for the one verse, it pointed them to the general area, and then things started to fall into place. And so even then, after all those years, and they were, how many years after that, they finally took the internet and a vast amount of knowledge to kind of find to pin that down what those words actually meant. So and I didn’t even know that he Byron was looking around. I didn’t see him looking at that stuff. When he was writing it down. It was like, he had that little book is, you know, like the Indiana Jones book with the little rubber bands strapped around it, you know, and little notes in there and little diagrams and stuff. And I hate

George Ward
the fact that it’s been 40 years these are unsolved and your response to that question was I would make them harder. Yeah.

John Jude Palencar
By making them harder you make it easier. What do you get? It’s like you know, who knows what virus bookcase? You know, I don’t know. What is this? Yeah, that’s it.

Bradley Hodges
You’re diabolical youngster

George Ward
to be breaking into John’s house soon.

John Jude Palencar
It’s not it’s not. It is not by race book. It is not. Okay. So.

Bradley Hodges
So the inside joke that George was touching on earlier was it’s you might say that Andy is more charismatic than Brian. So everybody remembers Andy’s name and not so much Brian’s but Brian was the one that was really into the puzzle. Yeah, just kind of tagging along as

John Jude Palencar
Andy was eating that summers what was Andy’s last name?

George Ward
Abram Abrams.

John Jude Palencar
Abrams. Okay, yeah. Can I remember zoom because invaders in Zim are nice like cartoon. That’s why I remember. Right.

George Ward
I love that John Palancar just referenced my favorite comic artists. Yo On Vasquez, I love it did this thing called Johnny the homicidal maniac before invaders in all areas.

John Jude Palencar
I didn’t know that. I’m looking at some questions here to from, there were a couple of questions about like, you touched on becoming human because of the, the, there was a guy who was telling you about the human geometries and such, because he does chainsaw carving. You know, I do that because I work you know, I work from imagination from from life and from my own photo reference, you know, that’s, I work from anything that I can get that’s that I have control of from the from the start. So if I have a model come over, you know, get your drawings from life, and then I can take photos and work from both bottle come back over just now. It’s a little bit different, though, with the COVID stuff. But

George Ward
Bradley John can read the Facebook page. Yeah,

John Jude Palencar
that’s why I’m right. No, no, I copied and pasted these in there from last time. These are hidden clues and other paintings. Yeah, she called it Nightwatch. Yeah, that was when a show that was music revelry by Charles Berlin. There are many things hidden in these paintings. So just whether they apply to the secret or not, is up to your interpretation.

George Ward
Kids hold told a really nice story about that painting. He said it was it was odd because it was such a beautiful painting, but he didn’t think it had ever been shown or maybe it was only shown once or twice. He said it just hung at the top of your staircase.

John Jude Palencar
No, actually it was it was showing up the Society of Illustrators in New York and it actually won an award called the Hamilton King Award, which is they say it’s for the best illustration done by a member of the Society of Illustrators for that year. So nice big metal on a big Lucite block and stuff. They it’s presented at the they only give out once a year. And it’s, I’m in with a really good group of illustrators. And it’s presented at the President’s dinner where they have the Hall of Fame inductees. You have people like Norman Rockwell in there and it’s the why of Maxwell Parrish. JC Leyendecker can go through a whole list of are we done and Parker and Mark English peak, Bertie Fuchs? A lot of these people don’t are some of the people actually studied with Paris, France. Yeah, it’s, it was a very kind of a special thing so that it hangs off. It’s only been I mean, I think I was in the camp Museum of Art Show. I think that you guys went to

Bradley Hodges
No, no, I don’t think that there.

John Jude Palencar
Oh, okay. No, that and then it was at this site. It’s been shown at a couple of conventions, I think I don’t think it’s been at any art school. So I’ve done I’ve done some exhibitions at some art, schools and universities tos.

George Ward
He just figured it was very personal. He said you paint a lot of things and then you hang them up and they’re personal and no one ever sees them.

John Jude Palencar
Yeah, that’s right now until you know I get like the venue to show them and then I like I do the camera thing and they picked what they wanted to show it that and they bought one of them for their permanent collection there and oh, what they bought I think they got the for their acquisition. They got a with one of the three covers for a I’m trying to think Churi priests was the author. They were there were the it was about gold. So the old South actually was called not flesh nor feathers. And it was trying to think so that one’s got some symbols in it.

George Ward
Is it on display there now.

John Jude Palencar
They bring it out every once in a while they brought it up. Every once in a while they do what they show a works from their permanent collection. So they bring it out there it was brought up in the last one. And it was at the show. It was one of the three covers at the at the show with Kenny when you guys were there. But they bring it up occasionally. Hopefully they hang it right next to their Andrew Wyeth and Jamie life. Museum, by the by the Andy Warhol, the Andy’s

Bradley Hodges
speaking about award winning art and shows. Unless I’m wrong, I think the last exhibition of your watercolor painting that. Yeah, that’s going to be in it’s the American watercolor society, their 150/3 International exhibit exhibit. And it’s in Martinsville, Virginia starting March 12 through May 1 Unless that has changed.

John Jude Palencar
Yeah, I think some I heard different things. They’re still advertising the show that it’s during. I heard that some of the other venues canceled, but then I heard that because of the pandemic. But it seems like it’s moving through. I was I felt very honored and privileged, especially to winning the gold medal on that show and being it’s the first time I ever entered the American watercolor society and they’re, they’re a heck of a organist Station they’ve been around for as you mentioned 153 years this show has been going on and they’ve shown work by I think the lander wife and Winslow Homer John Singer Sargent and it’s a very respectable some of the new maybe modern crowd would think it’s you know, kind of old hat and you know, nothing but full of a bunch of Sunday painters but I can assure you it’s not there’s some very accomplished artists in there my high school art teacher is a a distinguished fellow of the American watercolor society and my good friend Dean Mitchell is also on the board of directors or anything can be distinguished fellow I think he’s a they call it the dolphin award dolphins dolphins plotter I guess so those both those guys are is karate training good friend from college are both in there to you know, I didn’t even know what at the time they weren’t on the jury so there’s nothing direct or anything. Anybody think that you know it’s like George finding the treasure for some it’s not like that. So

George Ward
I hate the fact that I’m essentially this board from this now. Yes.

John Jude Palencar
Yes. You your your castrated your your treasured gonads have flown off on air buddy

Bradley Hodges
group has been removed. That’s all right.

John Jude Palencar
Oh, really? I mean, because that’s what it because somebody would see that same exact spelling cap. Yeah, I can’t get it.

George Ward
I’ve got I got one, dig left. I started a little while back, and I didn’t get it complete. And I’m gonna finish that because I have documents that I’ve been doing it for two years. Hopefully we’ll find something that’s my last shot.

John Jude Palencar
Well, you have to you have to get somebody else to pick it up.

George Ward
Yeah, yeah. Well, I got a team. Questions.

Bradley Hodges
I have I have two more than I would like to touch on.

John Jude Palencar
And and all this stuff out about the soundtrack stuff? Oh, no, not at all in every bit of it.

Bradley Hodges
Because I spent too much time on it. But my questions are kind of intertwined. So for those of us that are big fans of your work, John, the only opportunities really, really have right now to buy your work and have it in our home is either going out and finding the book that you did the work for and buying the book. Or in one case, we found that you did artwork for a video game. And so we go out and buy the video game.

John Jude Palencar
Oh my gosh, I don’t think I don’t even have a copy of that. I don’t think I have a high res JPEG of it from America to there. I think bindeez owns at any two I think nice.

Bradley Hodges
So my questions were going to be just as far as video game goes is have you done artwork for any other video game? No,

John Jude Palencar
I there’s so many good people out there doing it. A lot of them are doing it digitally. And it translates really well to the to the covers. A few my friends are doing some, but I haven’t done many. I think the last one I did was that ridic thing. But then before that, there was I did like a Marshawn game. And it was done for Electronic Arts. And that whole thing is kind of weird how those I know a number of art directors that are involved in that business. One of them actually bought a painting when I was a guest visiting artists at the Laguna College of Art and Design. And he works for was it Red Star games or something like that or so.

George Ward
Think I found your Mazon game?

Bradley Hodges
I bet say it should be difficult for us to locate that.

George Ward
It’s kind of like it looks like it’s got like a dragon and a bird. Yeah. Oh god. Wow. So yeah, I have to buy a Mahjong game now.

Bradley Hodges
Same here. I just I just bought Dragon World the old Commodore game jumper or did the art for that.

John Jude Palencar
You know it’s funny I saw that guy work it’s very crude. And when he I mean Byron was really see there’s another thing with Byron he was always reading we if we went to the Friars Club, which he was a member of and we would go there and go up to the buddy how health club on the fifth floor. And women are only allowed up to the third floor second floor. Is there a bunch of naked old guys walking around on the fifth floor? Getting you know doing a steam or getting a rubdown or they’re working on the weight room I get on this Byron was always reading how do they get the fight sorry trail dry you story what No. Oh, Parag oh and Dragon World. Yeah. I think it from Dragon worlds up to the buddy How

George Ward
will you just want to talk about spam and that’s fine. Dry you now

John Jude Palencar
He was he was a very nice guy though. Very, very respectful very

George Ward
thorough. Very thorough.

John Jude Palencar
Yeah. Yeah, no but spent always made sure you had your fruit juice in this in the sauna give you juice.

George Ward
I tried to get parar to talk about that to talk about making the digital art back in the 80s. And he will

John Jude Palencar
say when I went to Byron, we would we would go there, but when, before we would go to the friars, I got there. I was office and I, a lot of times I would check in because I sometimes I’ve seen other publishers live in New York, and I’ve seen this place, we’re working together, but then I’m going off other places. Sometimes we go into the museum or whatever. And so we would, but I dropped by his office to check in and he had this guy in a back room. He was a young guy, and he was writing code. And I remember I said, so look, this is how much I got so far. And it’d be like a kind of really pixelated dragon flying around with like a really pixelated bolt bolt of lightning coming down or something like that. And I’m like, Oh, wow, that’s really neat. You know, it’s a great game. We were still in the age upon. Yeah, it wasn’t even Full Metal Gear or metal jacket or anything like that. It was like, pre this, you know, Byron was. That’s what I want to say. Because he was always reading at the Friars Club, he was always ahead of the curve. And when he was doing these games, he was ahead of the curve on that a lot of people were doing and he did Fahrenheit 451 I think with Ray Bradbury, and he did the dragon worth his own book. He did Treasure Island. This guy designed these games in a little back office working on a Mac computer, you know, in early, early Mac,

George Ward
you know, and we recoated all those games and you can play them on our website for God’s sake. Yep.

Bradley Hodges
No, there’s so much.

John Jude Palencar
Really so I mean, he was ahead of so he was doing that and and I you know, he got into the dinosaur thing. And I think that inspired Spielberg to do the, you know, to do the Jurassic Park movies because Byron said this book is a really neat look at dinosaurs. We’re going to reveal all this information about him. And he was really happy because he got I don’t know three spreads on Life magazine, you have to understand Life magazine was this was the place to be a huge magazine. So that when you opened up a spread in it, you had 20 inches of you know, you had front of front of whoever was looking at the magazine The I think he had three spreads in there. William stop was the artists that worked on that book. Bargain was on the morning show with you know, Jean shallot who used to be a film critic at the time and NBC or ABC I can’t remember so he was getting a lot of press with this with this book. So he was always and then you know, Spielberg years later does this Jurassic Park thing and he was always ahead of the curve so this you got on your tablet the video games and you know it’s he was always reading and that’s what he would do a lot of his reading on the bike at the back to the Friars Club on the buddy how health club on the fifth floor.

George Ward
So I guess final question, and then we’ll let John go get worse. Yeah,

John Jude Palencar
go work. You organize my studio?

Bradley Hodges
What do you you said you don’t have a copy of this. Would you like me to send you a copy?

John Jude Palencar
No, no, that’s okay. That’s okay.

Bradley Hodges
I don’t mind some opportunity to give back

John Jude Palencar
I don’t have a games I don’t have I don’t have any game consoles here by Sunday while the game consoles they have the whatever the latest Sony is they have that you know they have them hooked up they play online they got their headsets on they swear at each other you know there

Bradley Hodges
oh yeah, this is this is one thing that your son kit and I have in common very much so is the video game franchise doom. Oh, yeah, I have a huge collection of doom memorabilia. And him and I send each other things are pretty right here.

John Jude Palencar
A nice cabinet. And I can see I can only see a little basketball bobbleheads in there too. Oh, yeah. There’s a couple. Okay,

Bradley Hodges
yeah, but uh, George, you were mentioning you had to find a

John Jude Palencar
white dude. I did make it to the end of doom. And the only reason why I played it because we were in between homes when you’re renting a home and so we had satellite TV where we were in the unit that we got from dish unit had a built in Doom game in Doom wasm in the unit so we can I played it all the way to the ends I saw the bloody rabbit or whatever the heck was it I really we played it on a small wireless keyboard that came with the what if he had substituted for we get a remote control that came with the dish unit so you can use the different arrows and stuff wasn’t even a game whatever you call it controller, that’s awesome. Wow. So it was I Yeah, and then I got to see I get to obsessive about stuff. It’s like I am with my art I can keep on working you know I can or am I read music I can be down there for seven or eight hours. am I wasting coming up yet? I say no. I still am working down here you know? So if I In the studio the same way and I will be the same way. I mean, I played Dr. Mario, I don’t know how many levels I got in that state Forget it. You know, I It’s like, I get the OCD clicked on there. And I keep getting blinders on and I will character something that’s like, right, we’ll work out something to like, Master confidence. So yeah, that’s why I don’t get your urine.

Bradley Hodges
Fair enough in game stuff. I

John Jude Palencar
think too. I think it’s a real distraction with young people today and I think you should quit it. I think

Bradley Hodges
I don’t qualify as young anymore. So I’m okay. Yeah, I’m good.

John Jude Palencar
I haven’t I’m not into that I would obsess too much about I mentioned the music thing. I’m into the I’m kind of a technology whore. You know, I mean, me like that stuff. And I wouldn’t when it deals with music, and it’s funny, because in my art, I’m all traditional. And in my music, I’m all digital. It’s, it’s kind of, you know, that’s where I am more with the technology? And are they still think we can? Painting? Right? The old way is kind of, you know, my students call me Obi Wan Kenobi. To talk about the old ways. So I still think there’s something honorable, and something kind of primordial about working traditionally, than the arts, you know, with paint, and canvas, or pen or paper and watercolor. That can’t be replaced by some of these digital artists working on the screen. I mean, what they’re doing is beautiful, you know, the, the the special effects and the art that they can do, but I think some of them are missing out now, by getting so much into the digital realm through the games and through the the art that there’s that they’re missing, that they’re, they’re missing, activating a different part of their brain than what’s been activated by the technology.

George Ward
So my last question, it’s, it might not even make the cut, I don’t exactly know how to ask it. The secret kind of the secret kind of accomplish something that aren’t generally doesn’t accomplish generally, when you experience are you experience it in a 2d way. You look at it at a book or you look at a painting and you appreciate it, you appreciate the way it makes you feel you, you sort of take the story that the artists want to wants to give you the secret you experience in the real world. You take you take the secret and you go out to different parks, you experience adventures with your family, things like that. It just makes people experience the art in a different way. I was curious if you thought of that when you were creating the secret. And now as sort of a seasoned artist, how does that make you feel that you’ve you’ve your art sends people out to experience the world that way? No cheese,

John Jude Palencar
I don’t know, when I was working. I didn’t think any of that. At the time, it was just like, trying to do something cool, something that was a little mischievous. And just try to be clever and trying to do a good piece of art. And they kind of vary in quality. That’s why if I had a chance to do it again, they’d approach them a little bit more. Spending one more time. As far as now it’s like, in one way, it’s like, you know, this is back 40 years from now I’m on to other things here. So I feel in one way this is kind of pulling me back but you know, I can appreciate what it’s done for some people you know, where it’s, it’s maybe frustrated some people it’s created friendships like with you guys. And I think that’s that’s a good part. People have learned a little bit about history. Jason crew, Pat lost 40 pounds. I gotta get on his program because I’m kind of middle aged Kenneth. Set too long at the easel I guess you could say. And so I mean, it is neat to know that people have learned a little bit, have gotten friendships. And it’s astounds me that here Here I am talking about one of the earliest projects I’ve ever worked on, that has garnered this much attention. I mean, when I think about it, I had worked through I mean, I worked for American Greetings at age 19. And I worked there and they bought some of you in my high school work for their corporate collection. And then, you know, I freelanced for the studio. There in art school, you know, I did stuff for Procter and Gamble and NCR and huffy bikes and things like that, and a number of other major commercial, very kind of commercial, the ugly underbelly of commercial art, I like to call it and then my first really kind of more artistic stuff that I got through New York. Byron was the first person to ever contact me out of out of New York. And we worked out in the distance stars project and then The secret was the second project we worked on. And then I had already started doing stuff on in New York. So it’s, it’s, in one way amazing to me, that’s something I did that long ago has kind of come back to haunt me, I guess. But it’s also gratifying to see people engaged in the pursuit of treasures are using their brains and trying to figure this stuff out. You know, along the way, you know, having good friendships and relationships and going out to good dinners and experiencing some of these places. Aside from just looking for the treasures, you know, that there’s, there’s a whole nother series of orbits that are around the, the core of this, of the of the, of the books.

George Ward
So, all right, well, we appreciate your time. I don’t want to hold you up anymore. Unless there’s anything you want to say to the secret community.

John Jude Palencar
Not just these treasures, get permission don’t take without permission. I do not know the treasures do not send me any more things, please. Just you know, and hunt safely. Have a good time. Don’t be evil. Be good. Pika. Be excellent to each other man. You gotta you got to you got the St. Augustine one. I mean, you have the? Yeah, you guys. Yeah.

George Ward
So there is there’s one thing, Bradley, this is gonna be fun. There’s John, there’s one thing we’d like to do to our podcast guests. Bradley and I are in a position where the community likes to come to us for advice. And we’ve been hit in this a lot. So we know a lot of things. So we’d like to ask our pod, we’d like to give our podcast guests a chance off air, not recorded to ask us one question that we will answer, honestly. So do you have any question about the secret that you would like to ask us be? Yeah,

Bradley Hodges
it’s, it’s hilarious, because it’s you

John Jude Palencar
know what? Who is? Why haven’t you guys done one yet?

George Ward
We’re, we’re morons.

Bradley Hodges
I’m not smart enough to say simple as that. I couldn’t see a home plate that was in front of my eyes for years. That’s why

George Ward
I’ve lived in Augustine my entire life. And I don’t even know where to start this puzzle.

John Jude Palencar
I forgot that. I even forgot about See, I forgot that the sleeve thing. And I remember I think Byron st do that. I’m like worried does that all work? I said, You think here and he does networks. So they’ll have the home plate on the sleeve. And I see it’s like one of those. It was very fluid back and forth and stuff like that, you know, so. But if Byron and I were doing it, this time, we would definitely use the internet, the internet would be part of it. In fact, he would probably hire a couple of digital guys, along with somebody like me that do print and within the printed pennies, there would be some kind of clue to go to a URL that would then open up to additional clues that might take you back to the book or to somewhere else that you would find something you know, it could be really, that can be really cool. Too bad. You know, it’s like, anyway.

George Ward
But yeah, to answer your question, we love this thing. We’ve been working like I said, I live I’ve lived in the city my entire life. I don’t even know where to start. Like I have a I have a secret tattoo. I have no idea where to start. Like I’m just an idiot when it comes to this puzzle. Oh,

John Jude Palencar
I don’t think you are. I think you’re smarter than you think they are that you’d like to meet me. But

George Ward
well, that’s a nice compliment. Thank you. It hasn’t let me find a cast though. I still can’t solve this puzzle. And thanks for taking time out of your day to do this interview. I know. You’re a busy man. And hopefully, hopefully you had a good time. I know we enjoyed it. And hopefully everybody out there watching enjoyed it. Maybe we got some questions answered for you. helps you sort of narrow down your solutions or your ideas. Hopefully it helped out a little bit. If you wouldn’t mind, throw a comment down below. Subscribe to the videos. We don’t we don’t post stuff often on Facebook or on YouTube, but when we do, it’s usually pretty cool. So hit the subscribe button if you want. Check out the rest of our videos. Whatever you’d like to do. Bradley Bradley hit a button plays out Chase man, we’re gonna get you some cooler buttons.

Hosts & Guests

George Ward

Bradley Hodges

John Jude Palencar

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