I very rarely post here but I thought this topic deserves some attention as it emphasized several times in the book. Reading various proposed solutions, I am still surprised that there is some disagreement as to which images/verse pairings are correct. The book instructs us to FIRST match these together and then proceed with finding the casque. Here are the proposed pairings (Image/Verse): 1/6: “below the bar that binds” refers to the jail bars in the mountain 2/5: “weight and roots extended” the tree branch with the fort Sumter ‘weight’ hanging on it 3/11: “land near the window” Roanoke island outline next to the window 4/4: “seek the columns” columns in the image 5/12: “fence and fixture” fence in the image 6/9: “base of a tall tree” palm tree in image 7/7: “sounds from the sky” grandfather clock with night sky 8/1: “perspective should not be lost” painting is a perspective drawing (only one of the twelve) 9/2: “gnomes admire” refers to the jewel, direct book reference 10/8: “cast in copper” copper key in image 11/3: “all the letters” A/Z depicted in left column in image 12/10: “the gray giant” Statue of Liberty image with gray robe Thoughts? Other ideas?

So are you trying to say the Statue of Liberty is the Grey giant, again?

Yes. That is what I believe matches the image and verse together. Going one step further, its “shadow” is likely the outline of Manhattan where the instructions begin to find the casque.

Unknown: Statue of Liberty is the Grey giant What, you never heard of verdigris? Don't be so negative NYC. Embrace the possibilities.

Love it.

well... at least you got Chicago & Cleveland right...

wow

davinci4 wrote:: Yes. That is what I believe matches the image and verse together. Going one step further, its “shadow” is likely the outline of Manhattan where the instructions begin to find the casque. Highly doubt that. We already collectively agree about the verses, but the statue of Liberty is the Grey giant seems unlikely, and the outline of Manhattan I completely disagree with. If this was a jigsaw puzzle, you would be smashing pieces into each other to fit to make something like this theory work. Between wiki and that episode of Exp. Unknown, people have already started with a huge bias. If the first part of your solves is off, the rest of it is as well. Food for thought.

davinci4 wrote:: I very rarely post here but I thought this topic deserves some attention as it emphasized several times in the book. Reading various proposed solutions, I am still surprised that there is some disagreement as to which images/verse pairings are correct. The book instructs us to FIRST match these together and then proceed with finding the casque. Here are the proposed pairings (Image/Verse): 1/6: “below the bar that binds” refers to the jail bars in the mountain 2/5: “weight and roots extended” the tree branch with the fort Sumter ‘weight’ hanging on it 3/11: “land near the window” Roanoke island outline next to the window 4/4: “seek the columns” columns in the image 5/12: “fence and fixture” fence in the image 6/9: “base of a tall tree” palm tree in image 7/7: “sounds from the sky” grandfather clock with night sky 8/1: “perspective should not be lost” painting is a perspective drawing (only one of the twelve) 9/2: “gnomes admire” refers to the jewel, direct book reference 10/8: “cast in copper” copper key in image 11/3: “all the letters” A/Z depicted in left column in image 12/10: “the gray giant” Statue of Liberty image with gray robe Thoughts? Other ideas? Wait, image 11...What letters in which column?

Finding the right site is your first priority. Use whatever pairing may fit that location, but weave the clues together properly or you'll end up with an unraveled assortment of guesswork.

“Wait, image 11...What letters in which column?” This one is actually quite clever. On the second panel on the left side (below her right elbow).There is the letter “Z” which is flipped 90 degrees, sort of looks like an “N”. There are two letter “A”s one upright and one upside down that touch the diagonal of the flipped “Z”. I hope that makes sense. Wish I could take credit for that observation. I believe it was on the Wiki before it was completely redone.

davinci4 wrote:: “Wait, image 11...What letters in which column?” This one is actually quite clever. On the second panel on the left side (below her right elbow).There is the letter “Z” which is flipped 90 degrees, sort of looks like an “N”. There are two letter “A”s one upright and one upside down that touch the diagonal of the flipped “Z”. I hope that makes sense. Wish I could take credit for that observation. I believe it was on the Wiki before it was completely redone. How is two A's and an N "all the letters?" Is this the ancient language, Nannanan? Don't get me wrong, I love this one because its a cool theory that explains a lot of stuff, but... it's two A's and a N. A branch is not a root, there are trees in other paintings, the statue of liberty is green, etc. I'm going to look into it, because its fun to think Preiss made this clear association. As it stands, though, about half of these really don't sell me. A few of them are really good though, so this idea may have legs

drunknerds wrote:: How is two A's and an N "all the letters?" Is this the ancient language, Nannanan? I think the A/Z panel was the way they artistically referenced “all the letters” (A to Z). While I think most agree that this image/verse pairing is correct, I didn’t see any other portion of the image that could be paired with the verse (I.e. there is no “green tower of lights” or “coliseum with metal walls” in the image).

drunknerds wrote:: How is two A's and an N "all the letters?" Is this the ancient language, Nannanan? Don't get me wrong, I love this one because its a cool theory that explains a lot of stuff, but... it's two A's and a N. A branch is not a root, there are trees in other paintings, the statue of liberty is green, etc. I'm going to look into it, because its fun to think Preiss made this clear association. As it stands, though, about half of these really don't sell me. A few of them are really good though, so this idea may have legs Thanks for the feedback. I am trying to picture someone in 1982 looking at this book for the first time. How would they have known which painting goes with which verse given the number of possibilities. The instructions included with the paintings seem to imply that there was a method to match them without having to solve the entire image/verse.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: "cast in copper" works two diff ways in the puzzle...but both relate to lincoln...on the one hand, if you follow the red herring designed into the first 7 clues of the puzzle...it takes you to lincoln park (the wrong park)...otherwise, on the right path...it focuses you towards lincoln memorial drive, which takes you to lake park (the correct park). Since you won't tell us your sure solves....please enlighten us about the red herring path that the first 7 clues lead you on.

davinci4 wrote:: I think the A/Z panel was the way they artistically referenced “all the letters” (A to Z). While I think most agree that this image/verse pairing is correct, I didn’t see any other portion of the image that could be paired with the verse (I.e. there is no “green tower of lights” or “coliseum with metal walls” in the image). I get what you're saying: A-Z is a common way to reference every letter... There's an A... and theres a shape that rotates to form a Z. As individual statements (call them "trees"), those make perfect sense. What I'm saying is that if you backup and look at those trees as a whole forest... you're pointing at 2 A's and a N and saying that's somehow representative of all 26 letters.

drunknerds wrote:: How is two A's and an N "all the letters?" Is this the ancient language, Nannanan? I think the A/Z panel was the way they artistically referenced “all the letters” (A to Z). While I think most agree that this image/verse pairing is correct, I didn’t see any other portion of the image that could be paired with the verse (I.e. there is no “green tower of lights” or “coliseum with metal walls” in the image).[/quote] I get what you're saying: A-Z is a common way to reference every letter... There's an A... and theres a shape that rotates to form a Z. As individual statements (call them "trees"), those make perfect sense. What I'm saying is that if you backup and look at those trees as a whole forest... you're pointing at 2 A's and a N and saying that's somehow representative of all 26 letters.[/quote] While I don’t really agree with the theory, the N can easily read as a Z. I actually think that is less of a stretch than convincing yourself that this are actually supposed to be A’s

8/1: “perspective should not be lost” painting is a perspective drawing (only one of the twelve) What exactly is a "perspective drawing"

Doghousereiley wrote:: 8/1: “perspective should not be lost” painting is a perspective drawing (only one of the twelve) What exactly is a "perspective drawing" While true, the same could be said for Images 1, 6, 10, and arguably 4 and 11 that show perspective.

gManTexas wrote:: While true, the same could be said for Images 1, 6, 10, and arguably 4 and 11 that show perspective. I am glad this one was brought up. There is a YouTube video of a gentleman who I believe had the correct solve for the Houston image. He was able to line up elements at the burial site in the zoo with incredible detail to the painting. The video does a side by side comparison and it is quite remarkable. There is an excellent Wikipedia on perspective drawings. I believe the artist painted this image from the perspective of a photograph at the burial site as seen in the video (one-point perspective). Coincidentally, a perspective drawing was also used in one of my all time favorite hunts, Treasure: In Search of the Golden Horse, to pinpoint the exact spot to dig.

I would love to see the video of the Houston solve if you have a link The wiki solve has many failings and not all of the verse is addressed

Doghousereiley wrote:: I would love to see the video of the Houston solve if you have a link The wiki solve has many failings and not all of the verse is addressed Me too. Link please!

I like "under the long palm's shadow" as the connector for image 2: Her palm makes the shadow of a palm tree

gManTexas wrote:: Me too. Link please! Can anyone help here? I can’t seem to find it. I believe it was the solution proposed by user “wilhouse” who had done extensive digging there and even had contact with Preiss.

Unknown: Can anyone help here? No doubt you are talking about James Renner's interview with Wilhouse. It used to be on Renner's blog ( hxxp://twelvesecretkeys.blogspot.com/ ) but has been removed. My understanding is that Wilhouse will be featured on Episode 4 of the "Shhh The Secret" podcast.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: No doubt you are talking about James Renner's interview with Wilhouse. It used to be on Renner's blog ( hxxp://twelvesecretkeys.blogspot.com/ ) but has been removed. My understanding is that Wilhouse will be featured on Episode 4 of the "Shhh The Secret" podcast. That’s too bad. Hope they repost it at some point. Looking forward to that episode.

DaVinci I'm falling in love with this theory of yours. Here's my stab: image 1: Verse 7 "At Stone Wall's Door" Image 2: Verse 6 "Beside the Long Palm's Shadow" Image 3: Verse 11 "The Land near the window" Image 4: Verse 4 "Seek the columns" Image 5: Verse 12 "Fence & Fixture" Image 6: I don't know. "Tall tree" feels like it applies to a few other images Image 7: I don't know. I don't like sounds from the sky because another verse references night which I think fits better Image 8: Verse 1 "There's the Spout!" Image 9: No clue Image 10: Verse 8 "Cast in Copper" Image 11: Verse 3 "All the numbers from 9 to 5" Image 12: I don't know So that leaves images 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and verses 2, 3, 5, 9, 10

drunknerds wrote:: DaVinci I'm falling in love with this theory of yours. Here's my stab: image 1: Verse 7 "At Stone Wall's Door" Image 2: Verse 6 "Beside the Long Palm's Shadow" Image 3: Verse 11 "The Land near the window" Image 4: Verse 4 "Seek the columns" Image 5: Verse 12 "Fence & Fixture" Image 6: I don't know. "Tall tree" feels like it applies to a few other images Image 7: I don't know. I don't like sounds from the sky because another verse references night which I think fits better Image 8: Verse 1 "There's the Spout!" Image 9: No clue Image 10: Verse 8 "Cast in Copper" Image 11: Verse 3 "All the numbers from 9 to 5" Image 12: I don't know So that leaves images 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and verses 2, 3, 5, 9, 10 Excellent! I really like your 8/1 pairing better than mine. “The spout” fits perfectly with the water/tornado under the genie.

Whoa, this made me realize something: That's why the Palm in St. Aug has no shadow. Preiss' probably realized people were going to see "in the long palm's shadow" and immediately marry the passage with the verse. This holds water even if the Da Vinci theory doesn't pan out.

drunknerds wrote:: Whoa, this made me realize something: That's why the Palm in St. Aug has no shadow. Preiss' probably realized people were going to see "in the long palm's shadow" and immediately marry the passage with the verse. This holds water even if the Da Vinci theory doesn't pan out. Very clever my friend.

Image 11: All the numbers from 9 to 5. Drunknerds, can you explain this? I don’t follow. And yes, I’m a little slow as well.

BINGO wrote:: Image 11: All the numbers from 9 to 5. Drunknerds, can you explain this? I don’t follow. And yes, I’m a little slow as well. well then maaaybe it is dolly parton gmantexas hahahaha!!

strike13 wrote:: well then maaaybe it is dolly parton gmantexas hahahaha!! Lol, I was waiting for someone to notice that little gem from drunknerds....

gManTexas wrote:: Lol, I was waiting for someone to notice that little gem from drunknerds.... My slowness was aforementioned. I didn’t get it. Guilty as charged. Shame, shame, shame.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: magnolia ave (where the live oaks are) used to be called the "Avenue of Palms" I'd missed the "Avenue of Palms" idea; that's interesting. Although, this postcard showing the Avenue doesn't look like Magnolia...not sure where that was.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I'd missed the "Avenue of Palms" idea; that's interesting. Although, this postcard showing the Avenue doesn't look like Magnolia...not sure where that was. I think that was what is now Williams st. But I'm not 100% positive. I'll check for you.

I think drunknerds makes a great point here. Palencar was meticulous with his paintings and his omission of the shadow would seem to have been done intentionally. If true, then White Rabbit’s solution (long palm = tennis) would also seem to be true. If Preiss used the shadow of a tree as a marker (a la Masquerade), then time of day and year (or distance from the tree base) would also have to be given to pinpoint the burial spot. The area (‘shadow’) next to the tennis courts at LaFayette Park seems to make a lot more sense, especially when you factor in other parts of the solution.

I've been think we need to focus on the pairings. Let's keep it up. Good work guys I think we're on to something. The pairings may be like a zebra puzzle where there is no way to match all but you can figure the last few by elimination or other clues in the book.

Something I probably should have mentioned in my initial post. We were discussing the Twain reference elsewhere and made me think of it. Knowing what I have read and understand about Byron Preiss, he had a tremendous amount of respect for history and literature. It would just seem ‘inappropriate’ to not have the allusions in the verses to various historical references fit with the city (and country) of origin: -Sullivan’s Island (Edgar Allen Poe) -Roanoke (Wright Brothers) -Boston (Longfellow) -San Francisco (Robert Louis Stevenson) -Canada/Montréal (Sovereignty) -New Orleans/Mississippi River (Mark Twain) -Brooklyn (Gershwin)

drunknerds wrote:: DaVinci I'm falling in love with this theory of yours. Here's my stab: image 1: Verse 7 "At Stone Wall's Door" Image 2: Verse 6 "Beside the Long Palm's Shadow" Image 3: Verse 11 "The Land near the window" Image 4: Verse 4 "Seek the columns" Image 5: Verse 12 "Fence & Fixture" Image 6: I don't know. "Tall tree" feels like it applies to a few other images Image 7: I don't know. I don't like sounds from the sky because another verse references night which I think fits better Image 8: Verse 1 "There's the Spout!" Image 9: No clue Image 10: Verse 8 "Cast in Copper" Image 11: Verse 3 "All the numbers from 9 to 5" Image 12: I don't know So that leaves images 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and verses 2, 3, 5, 9, 10 I agree - I think we've just been going the way people have been going and this needs to be revisited. I think verse 5 can fit with several of these.

I would like to strike "cast in copper" from the list too. I don't think the key is copper and, even more importantly, Preiss published graphic novels. He definitely knew that any color-based clue had a good chance of not translating after the printing process.

I love “there’s the spout” in the Houston image. I think the ‘gray giant’ is a pretty simple correlation to the large gray figure in the image (edit my post to leave out SOL, since this really belongs in the interpretation/discussion of the image). Would love to know any other ideas to pair the SF, NO, Milwaukee images. I still like the ‘the bar that binds’ for SF (Stonewalls door works well too) but I am not crazy about ‘sounds from the sky.’ A fun experiment would be to have someone with no knowledge of the hunt be given the images and verses. It would be interesting to see how they would pair them.

At the place where jewels abound = diamonds in the sky? I'm gonna tunnel NO from verse 2 because of that Sarmiento quote.

drunknerds wrote:: At the place where jewels abound = diamonds in the sky? I'm gonna tunnel NO from verse 2 because of that Sarmiento quote. That works too!...sounds like we are all pretty much on the same page with the exception of pairing NO and SF (and perhaps throw Montréal into the mix). One angle to consider, which I keep going back to, is the possible reference to Edwin Booth. There has yet to be any mention of him anywhere other than SF which would narrow down the other two verses. Some feel this could be a reference to Edward Blyden. Certainly possible, but there is no marker or memorial of him in any city being considered unless I am mistaken. Agreeing on the most likely ‘Edwin and Edwina’ reference would put a lot of pieces in place.

Seek the columns, is a good way to pair V4 to either P8 or P4.

davinci4 wrote:: That works too!...sounds like we are all pretty much on the same page with the exception of pairing NO and SF (and perhaps throw Montréal into the mix). One angle to consider, which I keep going back to, is the possible reference to Edwin Booth. There has yet to be any mention of him anywhere other than SF which would narrow down the other two verses. Some feel this could be a reference to Edward Blyden. Certainly possible, but there is no marker or memorial of him in any city being considered unless I am mistaken. Agreeing on the most likely ‘Edwin and Edwina’ reference would put a lot of pieces in place. I was going to argue about that Edwin and Edwina in SF comment, but it seems you then made my exact arguments. Abroad in America has two quotes mentioned in The Secret verses... (at least)

drunknerds wrote:: I was going to argue about that Edwin and Edwina in SF comment, but it seems you then made my exact arguments. Abroad in America has two quotes mentioned in The Secret verses... (at least) Respectfully disagree-- I personally think those Google keyword searches which turned up the "connection" to "Abroad in America" have had us all running in circles for the past ten-plus years. I'd like to see people keeping an open mind toward the Image/Verse pairings... at least until one of us turns up the next casque! Here are the pairings that I'm currently looking into: Image 1 - Verse 6 (Robert Louis Stevenson statue, China's historical references within the verse, etc.) Image 2 - Verse 5 (bias alert...) Image 9 - Verse 1 (Montreal's Citadel, Friendship fountain nearby, lion statues within walking distance, etc.)

davinci4 wrote:: A fun experiment would be to have someone with no knowledge of the hunt be given the images and verses. It would be interesting to see how they would pair them. Yes at the time we started, we didn't v7 was paired with New Orleans image While San Francisco was paired with v6 St Louis obviously went with image 9 and v2 boston was v3 as long as I can remember But Image 11 was Salt Lake City. and houston was quickly determined to be v1 from the train. v11 was definitely kitty hawk but which image and 12 was always NY with v10 as the leading match. But with a lot of work we got it straightened out.

davinci4 wrote:: Something I probably should have mentioned in my initial post. We were discussing the Twain reference elsewhere and made me think of it. Knowing what I have read and understand about Byron Preiss, he had a tremendous amount of respect for history and literature. It would just seem ‘inappropriate’ to not have the allusions in the verses to various historical references fit with the city (and country) of origin: -Sullivan’s Island (Edgar Allen Poe) -Roanoke (Wright Brothers) -Boston (Longfellow) -San Francisco (Robert Louis Stevenson) -Canada/Montréal (Sovereignty) -New Orleans/Mississippi River (Mark Twain) -Brooklyn (Gershwin) Arguably Mark Twain has a much better connection to San Francisco than New Orleans. Now if you were talking about the Mississippi and Hannibal Missouri, I would agree, but Mark Twain's New Orleans links aren't anywhere near as famous as his San Francisco links. Yes, he spent time there, but he got famous in CA. And RLS, was an SF resident. his only links are around portsmouth square and then the quickly fade out. Also your Roanoke Wright brothers link is non existent. two totally different areas especially if you are trying to connect, via history or literature and curious about canada/montreal soverignity, Isn't that from a Sarimento quote? lastly Assuming Gershwin=Brooklyin could have disastrous, limiting effects.

travis uses sarimento in New Orleans (i havent gotten that deep yet)...so there is def something to Sarimento being a part of puzzles for sure...another big one is Pindar.

i can tell you that the montreal puzzle takes you through the entire history of Confederation.

JoshCornell wrote:: travis uses sarimento in New Orleans (i havent gotten that deep yet)...so there is def something to Sarimento being a part of puzzles for sure...another big one is Pindar. I thought you had these all figured out...

prob better to use Peel and Jean Drapeau for MTL though, as they are the main drivers of the puzzle.

ive done all the treasure hunts im still working on all the complete maps...ive done new orleans around through lafayette. the first location ive written 12 pages of essay about and still going lol. travis is using the deep and layered clues to try and find the treasure whereas im using the path of least resistence. i argue the hard clues take you to the larger part of the puzzle...he thinks you need to use the hardest clues to find it. one of us is def right. (in NO, he's only doing NO and St Aug). I have the benefit of having already finished most of SF. i keep switching back and forth...ive started the essays for mtl, sf and no (in an attempt to catch up with travis). ive got charleston pretty well mapped out in my head, just need to do the work. and because so much talk goes on round st aug, ive developed a lot of the hard clues for that (like the entire flag).

maltedfalcon wrote:: Arguably Mark Twain has a much better connection to San Francisco than New Orleans. Now if you were talking about the Mississippi and Hannibal Missouri, I would agree, but Mark Twain's New Orleans links aren't anywhere near as famous as his San Francisco links. Yes, he spent time there, but he got famous in CA. And RLS, was an SF resident. his only links are around portsmouth square and then the quickly fade out. Also your Roanoke Wright brothers link is non existent. two totally different areas especially if you are trying to connect, via history or literature and curious about canada/montreal soverignity, Isn't that from a Sarimento quote? lastly Assuming Gershwin=Brooklyin could have disastrous, limiting effects. Hi Malted. I may have more of a simplified view of this hunt. Bare with me here: With regards to the Twain reference, I always pictured Preiss standing in Jackson Square, looking at various sites then creating a clever reference to each (Cafe De Monde, Cabildo, Jax Brewery, Artillery, Natchez Steamboat). When I picture Mark Twain, I think more of his works (Huckleburry Finn, Tom Sawyer) which take place in the South, including the Mississippi River, than the author himself. This is one reason why I have always paired this verse to NO. I recognize that the Twain had ties to CA (?SF) among other states, just not what I picture when I think of Mark Twain. Slightly different view on RLS, since he had strong ties to SF and a monument named after him there. Again, I could picture Preiss standing in Portsmouth Square coming up with a clever way to start his riddle. Or staring out at Kitty Hawk as buried the cask at the Watergate. The lack of consensus on the “sovereignty” reference always baffles me. Since sovereignty is a concept typically applied to nations (and no state in the US is sovereign) and Canadian sovereignty is a huge cultural issue there, I can not see this verse being paired otherwise. Not to mention the “gnomes” which I feel directly ties to the book reference. The counter argument to all these points has been “Abroad in America.” I am with JamesV on this one though. I just don’t think that finding these references was the means (THE KEY) which Preiss intended to solve these riddles. He could have just been reading this book when he wrote the The Secret and found a few choice phrases to incorporate. Again, I am just not sure some of these proposed solutions pass the ‘80s litmus test’ with the in depth use of google, aerial maps, Wikipedia etc. Of course, no cask has been found yet at any of these locations so keeping an open mind to all solutions.

my understanding of "Image to Verse Pairings" both XII(12) and IIII(4) somehow magically touched the "light" I believe each image contain a Roman numeral number corresponding to the correct Verse. seems a bit off topic, but I don't wanna start a new thread with the same subject.... any input?

theres an X in milwaukee to left of 44 which is to left of JJP initials. i dont see any 8's though, unless the cloak counts as an 8 as opposed to 7.

Spiritr wrote:: my understanding of "Image to Verse Pairings" both XII(12) and IIII(4) somehow magically touched the "light" I believe each image contain a Roman numeral number corresponding to the correct Verse. seems a bit off topic, but I don't wanna start a new thread with the same subject.... any input? It’s not a bad idea except that there were never any numbers assigned to the images or verses. These were created for potential solves to avoid confusion.

theyre numbered as theyre laid out in the book, so it would make sense...

JoshCornell wrote:: theres an X in milwaukee to left of 44 which is to left of JJP initials. i dont see any 8's though, unless the cloak counts as an 8 as opposed to 7. maybe this?

personally dont really like the V...but thats just me lol.

JoshCornell wrote:: personally dont really like the V...but thats just me lol. yea I kinda feel like I'm forcing it too.....

update solution: YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A IMAGE after looking at the images over and over , it seems like the images were the #1 distraction and looking back at the Cleveland and Chicago finds, basically just do as the Verse said the image were just a index, the real map is the Verse.

The images are distracting. The blending of clues presented as photographs to the artist are as much a guide as the background artistry is a misguidance. The verse is a map of equally good/bad guidance as well, since there's a huge interpretation component, depending on what latitude in language was according to the author's plan. Usage. Plain words sneaking by as proper nouns or vice-versa. Idioms. Definitions. Acrostics. Anagrams? Quotations. Synonyms. Homophones. Scary and unsettling as it all may be, there's also the possibility the puzzles were poorly designed or the necessary landmarks have been altered or destroyed over time.

Spiritr wrote:: update solution: YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A IMAGE after looking at the images over and over , it seems like the images were the #1 distraction and looking back at the Cleveland and Chicago finds, basically just do as the Verse said the image were just a index, the real map is the Verse. I completely agree. The images may get you to a general area and the verses tell you exactly where to dig. Image confirmers are only useful if you have a strong solve with the verse to back them up. Would like to see more action on the verses.

davinci4 wrote:: I completely agree. The images may get you to a general area and the verses tell you exactly where to dig. Image confirmers are only useful if you have a strong solve with the verse to back them up. Would like to see more action on the verses. and this might be the reason why we never see a second edition this according to him was supposed to be Easy, but what he realized later down the years is, when you write the Verse but have someone else do the illustration, you simply created this "bug" in the game.

what I meant was from 1982-2015, ok

Two other challanges as well, assuming you have a correct solve: 1) getting permission to dig (one reason I am excited about SF) 2) The logistics of unearthing the cask assuming you have narrowed it down to a couple of feet (even with probing and GPR)

erexere wrote:: Seek the columns, is a good way to pair V4 to either P8 or P4. In Verse 7, there is also "High posts are three" which could suggest the three posts in the foreground of P8, but not suggestive to P4 Then take a look in Verse 6, "Between two arms extended, below the bar the binds," could have suggested P 3, because well the armor literally has it's two arms extended and bound by bars. But that pairing is in direct contradiction to Verse 11, "Ride the man of oz, to the land near the window." Was that red herring intentional? Or do the images somehow relate to each other? They are side by side to each other in the book. If (P2) is Charleston, SC it is "below," what most believe is (P3) Roanoke, NC. So that seems to suggest multiple verses can link to multiple pictures. Taking it further, P 1 and P 12 are both out man out being the bookends of the pictures and they both uniquely have the arched top.

Spiritr wrote:: update solution: YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A IMAGE this is so incredibly false its not even funny...just look at charleston, where you MUST use the purely visual clues on the fs pendent to solve the puzzle.

keep in mind that when the book was released the pairings werent evident so he uses clues that can apply to multiple locales. take high posts are three for example...fits perfectly for mtl. with the cross and two towers in the cemetary. this happens alot...look at clock from milwaukee i posted. or consider the blocks in front of houses in NO, like the raised block in houston painting. these are attempts to trick you.

davinci4 wrote:: I very rarely post here but I thought this topic deserves some attention as it emphasized several times in the book. Reading various proposed solutions, I am still surprised that there is some disagreement as to which images/verse pairings are correct. The book instructs us to FIRST match these together and then proceed with finding the casque. Here are the proposed pairings (Image/Verse): 1/6: “below the bar that binds” refers to the jail bars in the mountain 2/5: “weight and roots extended” the tree branch with the fort Sumter ‘weight’ hanging on it 3/11: “land near the window” Roanoke island outline next to the window 4/4: “seek the columns” columns in the image 5/12: “fence and fixture” fence in the image 6/9: “base of a tall tree” palm tree in image 7/7: “sounds from the sky” grandfather clock with night sky 8/1: “perspective should not be lost” painting is a perspective drawing (only one of the twelve) 9/2: “gnomes admire” refers to the jewel, direct book reference 10/8: “cast in copper” copper key in image 11/3: “all the letters” A/Z depicted in left column in image 12/10: “the gray giant” Statue of Liberty image with gray robe Thoughts? Other ideas? drunknerds wrote:: DaVinci I'm falling in love with this theory of yours. Here's my stab: image 1: Verse 7 "At Stone Wall's Door" Image 2: Verse 6 "Beside the Long Palm's Shadow" Image 3: Verse 11 "The Land near the window" Image 4: Verse 4 "Seek the columns" Image 5: Verse 12 "Fence & Fixture" Image 6: I don't know. "Tall tree" feels like it applies to a few other images Image 7: I don't know. I don't like sounds from the sky because another verse references night which I think fits better Image 8: Verse 1 "There's the Spout!" Image 9: No clue Image 10: Verse 8 "Cast in Copper" Image 11: Verse 3 "All the numbers from 9 to 5" Image 12: I don't know So that leaves images 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and verses 2, 3, 5, 9, 10 If this theory holds by the key lines from verses we are looking for the following representation in the images. verse 1 - Theres the spout! A whistle sounds. (Not sure it's buried in any image. Some suggests this could be represented by the Jinn's tornado and or baseball stitching/train tracks in image 8 ) verse 2 - Gnomes admire, fayes delight, the namesakes meeting near this site. (whose namesakes is the question... Satchmo/pops/L.Armstrong or the name of a Faye and a Gnome? Sounds like an intersection of namesakes.) verse 3 - face the water, your back to the stairs, feel at home - (the double circle, sitting area that is represented in the image 12 as the globe holder) not sure something like that has a name, Preiss could have referenced in a verse. verse 4 - In a rectangular plot, beneath the tenth stone, from right to left. Beneath the ninth row from the top, of the wall including small bricks. (the planter and wall where Egbert dug it up seen in the archway of the image 4) This verse also notes "seek the columns" seen at the bottom of the image, which of couse marks the entrance to the trail that leads to the wall. verse 5 - White stone closest. (A stone the shape of the opal in image 9? or a stone that has one of those Montreal flowers engraved in it lying around somewhere, other possibility is the white mountain/iceberg in image 6?) verse 6 - Between two arms extended, below the bar that binds. Beside the long palm's shadow. (in image two the fairy's arms are not extended but crossed, and not sure the daisy, pine branch or nose/pole would be an image of a long palm.) Maybe something to do with the lion's nose? or something to do with image three on the opposite page near the armor's torso? verse 7 - Giant pole, giant step. to the place were the casque is kept. (Seems like a pole or step should be in one of the images.) Back in 2003, many speculated, "High posts are three" was a reference to Tranquility park in Houston. Which could be represented in the three foreground columns of image 8. One of the three is different, could that be the "giant pole," the other two could be a match for the main fountain's columns. Image 8 is also speculated to have the "footprint" in the trees on the top right. Tranquility park also has a replica for Armstrong's foot print on the moon with his one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, quote. A remix of the verse line "Giant step?" Esp. if you interpret Preiss' email saying he didn't remember burying a casque in Hermann park, but it wouldn't be a waste of time to dig there, i.e. if you don't find a casque there you can then rule it out as a possibility. Just a thought to consider. verse 8 - On a proud, tall fifth (birch tree), at its southern foot. (speculated to be the five birch trees in the cape of the lion/woman in image 10.) verse 9 - Behind bending branches, and a green picket fence, at the base of a tall tree. (suppose the closes to a picket fence is the asters in image 6, it also has a tree in the image. Is that enough to go on?) verse 10 - Take twice as many steps east as the hour. (though all the images are linked to an hour, does such a direct line imply an image that has an actual clock/watch in it?) From the middle of one branch of the v. (Sounds like a fork in the road or path in a park) Look down and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil. Or gaze north toward the isle of B. (Whatever B isle it is, is it likely to be outlined in the image like Roanoke is?) verse 11 - Under that Which may be last touched or first seen standing. Look north at the wing (The wing we know is the Wright bros. monument which is a pillar in the shape of a wing.) If the last touched first seen is a Croatan tree/fallen log. Not sure i'm seeing it in the image. verse 12 - is your clue, fence and fixture too. (which was the three post fence seen in image 5. Was the jewel supposed to represent the square metal wall mounted "fixture" box the casque was found near?)

What is a perspective painting ? for Houston

the book DID NOT instruct you to match the verse and image like that you should first figure out the location from the image, go there, and start looking at the verses to see which one fits your surroundings. again, YOU DO NOT pick a line or a word from a random Verse and pair it with objects you see in the image, and claim "it must be it!". NO! Doing so will waste you another 30 years.

It merely says to pair one verse with one painting. I didn’t read instructions on how to do so anywhere. I really doubt image 3 would have been matched to a city if not for the verse line, Go to the land near the window. Vice versa if we went to the Wright bros monument as gleaned from the verse I don’t think there would have been an actual land by a physical window lying around the monument, save for in the image.

jayheedan1 wrote:: It merely says to pair one verse with one painting. I didn’t read instructions on how to do so anywhere. I really doubt image 3 would have been matched to a city if not for the verse line, Go to the land near the window. Vice versa if we went to the Wright bros monument as gleaned from the verse I don’t think there would have been an actual land by a physical window lying around the monument, save for in the image. NO it didn't just Merely said to pair(wed) one verse with one painting. Maybe your book was missing a page, too bad then. If you really doubt image 3 would have been matched to any city with out the verse line. You still DO NOT go to the land near the....what? window? And instead, I'll give you a 100% correct solution to your doubt, it's called Remainder Theorem. If you want to skip this, fine, then just go by the rule, find the sight of the painting, then you may pair it with a verse that most fit your sight. Not the other way around. you could be wrong about the order of pairing, but you can't go wrong with the Remainder Theorem.

Hi All. Thought I would jump in on this discussion. This was an original theory before it was removed from the wiki. The idea here was that there were too many possible verse-image combinations (90 if my math is correct). The reader would had to have been given some direction as too which image matched with which verse before proceeding forward. We know a lot more now, especially since two have been solved. Given the number of combinations, though, it would have been impossible in 1982 otherwise without some clue to help the reader match them up. One interesting note, other than the clues provided, a prior user had mentioned the relevance of the omitted shadow of the palm tree in the Florida image, as not to be confused with ‘the long palms shadow.’ This observation may help support this theory regarding image-verse pairing.

Unknown: 90 if my math is correct One hundred forty-four originally. With Cleveland and Chicago solved, at least with regard to which Verse pairs with which Image, we are down to 100 unique combinations. With each definitive match, that number becomes (12-X)^2 where X is the number of solved puzzles.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: One hundred forty-four originally. With Cleveland and Chicago solved, at least with regard to which Verse pairs with which Image, we are down to 100 unique combinations. With each definitive match, that number becomes (12-X)^2 where X is the number of solved puzzles. Yes. You are correct... Pairing image/verse would have been impossible without some clue that links the two at the onset of the hunt (‘ at the armchair), before one ever considered going into a city and exploring. So there perhaps is some consistent methodology to solving each puzzle. Step#1: pair the image/verse Step#2: identify the city (coordinates/rebus provided in painting) It also appears that each verse (either a description of a place or a city walkthrough) has a line (or two) that correctly identifies the cask location, ‘X marks the spot’ if you will. We can save that discussion for another post.

Unknown: Step#1: pair the image/verse Step#2: identify the city (coordinates/rebus provided in painting) I'd argue that you have this backwards. Finding the city for the easiest puzzles is the first step, and that for the most part is done with the Image. Once you have that, matching that city to a Verse is Step #2, and that's what 421 is talking about in the other thread. Step #3 is identifying the Park, but that truly is another discussion. Keep in mind that the puzzles are progressively harder, so it's possible that you solve the easiest one in its entirety before you even get past Step #1 for the hardest one. As we have seen.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I'd argue that you have this backwards. Finding the city for the easiest puzzles is the first step, and that for the most part is done with the Image. Once you have that, matching that city to a Verse is Step #2, and that's what 421 is talking about in the other thread. Step #3 is identifying the Park, but that truly is another discussion. Keep in mind that the puzzles are progressively harder, so it's possible that you solve the easiest one in its entirety before you even get past Step #1 for the hardest one. As we have seen. +1

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: One hundred forty-four originally. With Cleveland and Chicago solved, at least with regard to which Verse pairs with which Image, we are down to 100 unique combinations. With each definitive match, that number becomes (12-X)^2 where X is the number of solved puzzles. No. There were originally 78 pairings. In combinatoric mathematics, that's 12 things taken 2 at a time with repetitions allowed. There are now a total of 55 pairings. That's 10 things taken 2 at a time with repetitions allowed. If you take image 1 and pair it with each of the verses, you get 12 pairs. If you take image 2 and pair it with the remaining eleven verses, you get 11 pairs. Continuing like this means you simply add up 12 + 11 + 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 78 original pairs. Likewise, 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 55 remaining pairs.

no one use excel? =COMBIN(10,2)

Unknown: If you take image 1 and pair it with each of the verses, you get 12 pairs. If you take image 2 and pair it with the remaining eleven verses... Step One gives you twelve pairs, but you haven't eliminated anything. Therefore, Step Two also gives you twelve pairs, not eleven. Twelve times twelve is one hundred and forty-four. But you are missing the point, as even 78 unique combinations is untenable.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Step One gives you twelve pairs, but you haven't eliminated anything. Therefore, Step Two also gives you twelve pairs, not eleven. Twelve times twelve is one hundred and forty-four. But you are missing the point, as even 78 unique combinations is untenable. Hi Misinsti. Thanks for the input. ..Yes. I think we can all agree given the number of possible combinations that matching them would have been an overwhelming (near impossible) task without some direction given by the author. If I recall, the Cleveland find came out of google searching “Pindar, Socrates” and I am not clear what clue the Chicago group used to pair the image and verse together. I give both groups a lot of credit though. The only reason I keep bringing up this subject is that there still is a lack of consensus on which images/verses match 35+ years later.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: One hundred forty-four originally. With Cleveland and Chicago solved, at least with regard to which Verse pairs with which Image, we are down to 100 unique combinations. With each definitive match, that number becomes (12-X)^2 where X is the number of solved puzzles. The number of combinations is 1 of 12 with 1 of 12, then 1 of 11 with 1 of 11, etc. This is 12!, or 4.8 x 10^10 combinations. Yes, that’s a lot. With two solved, it’s “only” 3.6 million. (12-X)^2 is four when X=10, which any beginning algebra student knows would be wrong.

Unknown: (12-X)^2 is four when X=10 Unknown: which any beginning algebra student knows would be wrong. Now you've got it... Ohhh, maybe not. Perhaps it would help you guys to know that I have an almost infinite amount of patience when it comes to this puzzle. It comes in handy sometimes.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Step One gives you twelve pairs, but you haven't eliminated anything. Therefore, Step Two also gives you twelve pairs, not eleven. Twelve times twelve is one hundred and forty-four. But you are missing the point, as even 78 unique combinations is untenable. I guess the only way to convince you is to list all 78 pairings. 1/1 1/2 1/3 1/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 1/8 1/9 1/10 1/11 1/12 (12 pairs) 2/2 2/3 2/4 2/5 2/6 2/7 2/8 2/9 2/10 2/11 2/12 (11 pairs - 2/1 already included in previous pairings) 3/3 3/4 3/5 3/6 3/7 3/8 3/9 3/10 3/11 3/12 (10 pairs - 3/2 and 3/1 already included) 4/4 4/5 4/6 4/7 4/8 4/9 4/10 4/11 4/12 (9 pairs - 4/3, 4/2, and 4/1 already included) 5/5 5/6 5/7 5/8 5/9 5/10 5/11 5/12 (8 pairs - 5/4, 5/3, 5/2, 5/1 already included) 6/6 6/7 6/8 6/9 6/10 6/11 6/12 (7 pairs - 6/5, 6/4, 6/3, 6/2, 6/1 already included) 7/7 7/8 7/9 7/10 7/11 7/12 (6 pairs - etc.) 8/8 8/9 8/10 8/11 8/12 (5 pairs - etc.) 9/9 9/10 9/11 9/12 (4 pairs - etc.) 10/10 10/11 10/12 (3 pairs - etc.) 11/11 11/12 (2 pairs - etc.) 12/12 (1 pair - etc.)

mlsinstl wrote:: I guess the only way to convince you is to list all 78 pairings. 1/1 1/2 1/3 1/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 1/8 1/9 1/10 1/11 1/12 (12 pairs) 2/2 2/3 2/4 2/5 2/6 2/7 2/8 2/9 2/10 2/11 2/12 (11 pairs - 2/1 already included in previous pairings) 3/3 3/4 3/5 3/6 3/7 3/8 3/9 3/10 3/11 3/12 (10 pairs - 3/2 and 3/1 already included) 4/4 4/5 4/6 4/7 4/8 4/9 4/10 4/11 4/12 (9 pairs - 4/3, 4/2, and 4/1 already included) 5/5 5/6 5/7 5/8 5/9 5/10 5/11 5/12 (8 pairs - 5/4, 5/3, 5/2, 5/1 already included) 6/6 6/7 6/8 6/9 6/10 6/11 6/12 (7 pairs - 6/5, 6/4, 6/3, 6/2, 6/1 already included) 7/7 7/8 7/9 7/10 7/11 7/12 (6 pairs - etc.) 8/8 8/9 8/10 8/11 8/12 (5 pairs - etc.) 9/9 9/10 9/11 9/12 (4 pairs - etc.) 10/10 10/11 10/12 (3 pairs - etc.) 11/11 11/12 (2 pairs - etc.) 12/12 (1 pair - etc.) Your mistake is that each of the first-image-used/verse pairings must be paired with EACH of the matches for the second image used. For example, if we start with I1/V1 as a match, it gets EACH of the eleven remaining I2 matches. Then I1/V2 gets eleven pairings matched with it. This, alone, is 12x11=133 possibilities. It’s already more than 78.

mlsinstl wrote:: I guess the only way to convince you is to list all 78 pairings. 1/1 1/2 1/3 1/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 1/8 1/9 1/10 1/11 1/12 (12 pairs) 2/2 2/3 2/4 2/5 2/6 2/7 2/8 2/9 2/10 2/11 2/12 (11 pairs - 2/1 already included in previous pairings) 3/3 3/4 3/5 3/6 3/7 3/8 3/9 3/10 3/11 3/12 (10 pairs - 3/2 and 3/1 already included) 4/4 4/5 4/6 4/7 4/8 4/9 4/10 4/11 4/12 (9 pairs - 4/3, 4/2, and 4/1 already included) 5/5 5/6 5/7 5/8 5/9 5/10 5/11 5/12 (8 pairs - 5/4, 5/3, 5/2, 5/1 already included) 6/6 6/7 6/8 6/9 6/10 6/11 6/12 (7 pairs - 6/5, 6/4, 6/3, 6/2, 6/1 already included) 7/7 7/8 7/9 7/10 7/11 7/12 (6 pairs - etc.) 8/8 8/9 8/10 8/11 8/12 (5 pairs - etc.) 9/9 9/10 9/11 9/12 (4 pairs - etc.) 10/10 10/11 10/12 (3 pairs - etc.) 11/11 11/12 (2 pairs - etc.) 12/12 (1 pair - etc.) If that first line is image 1 with 12 verse parings and the second line is image 2 with 12 verse parings....then... Image 1/ verse 2 is not the same as image 2 / verse 1. 1/2 <>2/1 in that case....so, you can't remove 2/1 from the count, just because 1/2 was in the first line. The same is true for every subsequent paring that you removed.

I feel like there could be more discussion about the possible combinations than the solves.

jayheedan1 wrote:: I feel like there could be more discussion about the possible combinations than the solves. So, you're saying, (12-x)^2 is correct?

I’m saying what does knowing the permutation of 12 help anyone find a casque. In this since any of the generated numbers are meaningless.

jayheedan1 wrote:: I feel like there could be more discussion about the possible combinations than the solves. It’s a math thing. You have to have some knowledge of statistics to understand the issue. The ones who don’t are the ones creating the discussion.

jayheedan1 wrote:: I’m saying what does knowing the permutation of 12 help anyone find a casque. In this since any of the generated numbers are meaningless. And intimidating...or intoxicating,

Lies, damn lies, and statistics is the only thing I remember my stats professor saying. hxxp://caloriesproper.com/hey-cico-im-p ... tatistics/

Unknown: So, you're saying, (12-x)^2 is correct? Are you saying it's not?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Are you saying it's not? Dude....you need to lighten up. No. I was trying to joke with the guy who was saying that talking about the number of combinations was off topic for this thread. (It is off topic. So the hell what?)

Hi All. Just read this in another thread about a special clue in the Japanese translation: “Before you go reading the poems, look at the pictures. Then, taking all of the numbers in the poems, you can then put them into different combinations and join them with a picture." Does anyone know where this clue was in the Japanese book?

davinci4 wrote:: Hi All. Just read this in another thread about a special clue in the Japanese translation: “Before you go reading the poems, look at the pictures. Then, taking all of the numbers in the poems, you can then put them into different combinations and join them with a picture." Does anyone know where this clue was in the Japanese book? Page 247 of the Japanese edition, right after the last verse. The special hints section starts on page 234. See thread here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=210#p144716

never tried this...but for charleston...the circles in top of butterfly wings make an 8th and there are two and the eighth is referenced twice (one explicitly, the second veiled in clue that is uncovered in harken to the words of a patriot, 1840).

there are two symbolic triplets (that are connected) in the sf painting which could be related to the three. (there may actually be three)

2 bells 2 keys (also a 4 in the floor, possibly also in wall y/4 thingy...ie 2 squared = 4 or 2 x 2 = 4) because there are 2 twos

haha so good. 2x10x9=180...the triangle via euclid/geometry for cleveland

im thinking for st augustine its the flag pole man and horse (1 of each), as you find hidden numbers in the three combined (best guess anyways)

JoshCornell wrote:: haha so good. 2x10x9=180...the triangle via euclid/geometry for cleveland That almost works. You would be including the ordinal numbers. However, there is a 7 in verse 4 that you have not accounted for. I like the thought process though.

not quite sure on nola but top right there are 15 squares partially illuminated with 3 full squares present in middle of triangle this might be forcing it but if its designated by illuminated squares there are 3 columns illuminated on left that are illuminated down to 7 = 21? (in this case you would remove bottom right partial square (shadowed) for top left minutely partial square in 4th row (lit))

Scrappy929 wrote:: That almost works. You would be including the ordinal numbers. However, there is a 7 in verse 4 that you have not accounted for. I like the thought process though. shit, youre right, my bad.

houston 8 objects (including djinn/spout) 4 pillars in background, 2 with animals and shadow on main pillar (with top) making the 9

mtl fingers (X) + squares (2) = 12 in reverse 2 squares 2xX=20 x made of 2 fingers = 2

mw we have 3 3 92 200 100 3 high points = city hall + marquette hall (upside down) 100 = key, ball, ball all i got atm

boston all takes place in the arch 11+1 = 12 on left 12 + crack + 4 + 1 = 18 4 + 1 = 5 on right

nyc three alone would be water droplets...but three twice seems to imply 6 (window on right makes a 6)

that was relatively easy...lol... those mw ones though...i dunno...def a bit harder.

key doubles as both a 1 for 100 and a 9 for 9 2(balls) for 92

so 200 on milwaukee is cane +key = 2 00 (balls)

alternatively you could use cane flower millstone for 100 and key ball+ball for 92 but youd still have to double the key as a 1 to make the 200 either way. i think original way i had it works best.

my best guess at 1913 is in the flower petals...starting on left (9 o clock) 1, 4 + (3 as 1) 1 + 4 = 9, 1 (ignore underneath one), 3 = 1913 i think thats all of em.

oh cleveland still...

Hi All. Sorry I am little late but just getting caught up on the Japanese translation. I haven’t seen this mentioned yet. One of the biggest debates we have had was to the significance of “Abroad in America.” The clue regarding the interpretation of the “sovereign palace” (V2) would seems to imply that, while the book is quoted, the interpretation was not to be derived from the text itself. In fact, the translator says ‘don’t go lookIng for this book in a library.’ Then goes on to talk about how an Encyclopedia would help one interpret it. In my opinion, this helps put an end to the “Abroad in America” debate but I am sure some will disagree.

Thank you for that insight, davinci4.

davinci4 wrote:: Hi All. Sorry I am little late but just getting caught up on the Japanese translation. I haven’t seen this mentioned yet. One of the biggest debates we have had was to the significance of “Abroad in America.” The clue regarding the interpretation of the “sovereign palace” (V2) would seems to imply that, while the book is quoted, the interpretation was not to be derived from the text itself. In fact, the translator says ‘don’t go lookIng for this book in a library.’ Then goes on to talk about how an Encyclopedia would help one interpret it. In my opinion, this helps put an end to the “Abroad in America” debate but I am sure some will disagree. the quote is still important but its originally taken from sarmientos travels in america anywways...so... (finished japanese clue about sounds from the sky requiring listening devices too...its so good.)

This significance of “Abroad in America” has been debated extensively on this board. It has been fundamental in both pairing verses and potential solves. Does the Japanese hint for V2 change anyone’s opinion?

davinci4 wrote:: This significance of “Abroad in America” has been debated extensively on this board. It has been fundamental in both pairing verses and potential solves. Does the Japanese hint for V2 change anyone’s opinion? What was the Japanese hint again?

davinci4 wrote:: Hi All. Sorry I am little late but just getting caught up on the Japanese translation. I haven’t seen this mentioned yet. One of the biggest debates we have had was to the significance of “Abroad in America.” The clue regarding the interpretation of the “sovereign palace” (V2) would seems to imply that, while the book is quoted, the interpretation was not to be derived from the text itself. In fact, the translator says ‘don’t go lookIng for this book in a library.’ Then goes on to talk about how an Encyclopedia would help one interpret it. In my opinion, this helps put an end to the “Abroad in America” debate but I am sure some will disagree. This is what I was referring to from the Japanese translation.

gManTexas wrote:: What was the Japanese hint again? See translation notes here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=285#p145285

davinci4 wrote:: This is what I was referring to from the Japanese translation. Honestly, I think something got lost in translation here. It's difficult to take something that is quoted almost verbatim and attribute it to something else. Now, that's not to say it couldn't have another meaning when applied in the puzzle, but it seems like it places us in NOLA. Maybe we have to consider either people involved with the hotel or the time period or something like that.

I completely agree. It definitely could still refer to New Orleans but for a different reason other than its context in “Abroad in America.” Although I would say it wouldn’t be the only literary reference that has nothing to do with the location. “The strongest tower of delight” from The Ambiguities is based in upstate NY and authored by Herman Melville who has no ties to Houston, TX.

davinci4 wrote:: I completely agree. It definitely could still refer to New Orleans but for a different reason other than its context in “Abroad in America.” I'm with you there.

Here is the Google translation for the complete sovereign people hint. "This is a quote from a famous book Now. Let’s turn over the quote dictionary!"

maskit wrote:: Here is the Google translation for the complete sovereign people hint. "This is a quote from a famous book Now. Let’s turn over the quote dictionary!" That doesn't seem very helpful as a hint. Anyone care to venture what that is supposed to mean?

davinci4 wrote:: I completely agree. It definitely could still refer to New Orleans but for a different reason other than its context in “Abroad in America.” Although I would say it wouldn’t be the only literary reference that has nothing to do with the location. “The strongest tower of delight” from The Ambiguities is based in upstate NY and authored by Herman Melville who has no ties to Houston, TX. yea, but its hermann park...

it means you are supposed to attribute it to sarmiento...by finding the quote in a dictionary of quotes...so...something we've already done...

gManTexas wrote:: That doesn't seem very helpful as a hint. Anyone care to venture what that is supposed to mean? See this thread dated 27 Aug 2007: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=953&p=66998&hilit=sovereign#p66992 Abroad in America: https://books.google.com/books?id=OZABA ... %22&pgis=1 Good find for those back in that thread!

Scrappy929 wrote:: See this thread dated 27 Aug 2007: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=953&p=66998&hilit=sovereign#p66992 Abroad in America: https://books.google.com/books?id=OZABA ... %22&pgis=1 Good find for those back in that thread! I'm already aware of the quote and the ties to New Orleans. I meant the hint itself to "turn over the quote dictionary". Maybe easier to attribute the quote that way?

yes, exactly. he's telling you HE GOT IT from a quote dictionary. but thats it's from a more famous book...the former an easier route to get to the latter.

This is my first time posting. I'm taking the plunge. (I've never posted photos on a board, so I hope I linked the pics correctly.) I listened to the Japanese translation podcast recently, and was struck by the final clue suggesting that (and I'm paraphrasing) one should study the paintings, then look at the numbers in the verses to find a match. I was looking at the Houston painting, concentrating on the area near the the top that seems to have a pretty clear "2" hidden in the branches. flipped the picture over and focused my attention when I saw this https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769120725/in/dateposted-public/ There seems to be a "9" and an "8" near the 2. There are other numbers in the Houston verse, but "nine eight two" really jump out at me. (The other numbers are 3 and 4. I can find a 3, but I haven't found a clear 4.) I decided to look at the New York, since there is only one number in the whole verse - 3. I've stared at the New York image for long enough to know there is a "3" on the tip of the bird's wing at the top of the painting. https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440792/in/dateposted-public/ I moved on to Boston. The Boston verse has one cardinal number, "five," and two ordinal numbers, "eighteenth" and "twelfth." I only looked for the cardinal number five, which is right in the middle of the painting. https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121075/in/dateposted-public/ As far as the ordinal numbers, there also seems to be an "18" in the woman's sleeve just above the "5" (although it's not perfectly clear), and there is a rather obvious "12" in the area near the white flower that may write out "1122." I decided to stick to the cardinal numbers only. That said, here are a few others I tinkered with. Chicago; cardinal numbers 10 and 13 https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440602/in/dateposted-public/ Charleston; cardinal number 2 (I didn't look for 1913, since, while technically a number, it's a date, and not a number used in a counting sense.) https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121285/in/dateposted-public/ Cleveland; cardinal numbers 2 and 7; ordinals tenth and ninth (did not look for these) https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440892/in/dateposted-public/ Montreal (may be a bit of a stretch); 2, 20, 2, and 12 https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440892/in/dateposted-public/ These were the only ones I found, so far. Again, some may be a stretch. Feel free to pick them apart!

notsoclevr wrote:: This is my first time posting. I'm taking the plunge. (I've never posted photos on a board, so I hope I linked the pics correctly.) I listened to the Japanese translation podcast recently, and was struck by the final clue suggesting that (and I'm paraphrasing) one should study the paintings, then look at the numbers in the verses to find a match. I was looking at the Houston painting, concentrating on the area near the the top that seems to have a pretty clear "2" hidden in the branches. flipped the picture over and focused my attention when I saw this https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769120725/in/dateposted-public/ There seems to be a "9" and an "8" near the 2. There are other numbers in the Houston verse, but "nine eight two" really jump out at me. (The other numbers are 3 and 4. I can find a 3, but I haven't found a clear 4.) I decided to look at the New York, since there is only one number in the whole verse - 3. I've stared at the New York image for long enough to know there is a "3" on the tip of the bird's wing at the top of the painting. https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440792/in/dateposted-public/ I moved on to Boston. The Boston verse has one cardinal number, "five," and two ordinal numbers, "eighteenth" and "twelfth." I only looked for the cardinal number five, which is right in the middle of the painting. https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121075/in/dateposted-public/ As far as the ordinal numbers, there also seems to be an "18" in the woman's sleeve just above the "5" (although it's not perfectly clear), and there is a rather obvious "12" in the area near the white flower that may write out "1122." I decided to stick to the cardinal numbers only. That said, here are a few others I tinkered with. Chicago; cardinal numbers 10 and 13 https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440602/in/dateposted-public/ Charleston; cardinal number 2 (I didn't look for 1913, since, while technically a number, it's a date, and not a number used in a counting sense.) https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121285/in/dateposted-public/ Cleveland; cardinal numbers 2 and 7; ordinals tenth and ninth (did not look for these) https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440892/in/dateposted-public/ Montreal (may be a bit of a stretch); 2, 20, 2, and 12 https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440892/in/dateposted-public/ These were the only ones I found, so far. Again, some may be a stretch. Feel free to pick them apart! Welcome to the hunt! This is pretty good stuff.

My apologies. I obviously need to learn how to link pics better. They were all out of order in my original post.

Okay, hopefully I got the links correct this time. Houston: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440462/in/dateposted-public/ New York: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121075/in/dateposted-public/ Boston: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440602/in/dateposted-public/ Chicago: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769120725/in/dateposted-public/ Cleveland: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440892/in/dateposted-public/ Charleston: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/46631440792/in/dateposted-public/ Montreal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/45769121285/in/dateposted-public/

I think notsoclevr is definitely on to something. I've been thinking about pairing the image/verses through the numbers ever since the japanese translation, but got sidetracked and am now back to it thanks ! The 982 is quite a visual confirmation I think, so I dug into the other images and though you can find almost every number in every image... I think I've got quite a nice match for image 7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/gjYXyDfQrUAtv952A (I'm not getting the picture up here, sorry, you'll have to do with a link...) we're looking for fifteen twenty-one and three Since this image is quite similar to Masquerade I thought that might be a clue. So I followed the hands and feet and eyes... The hands point to 10 and 5 , that makes our FIFTEEN the eyes point at 9, on a clock this could be 21.00 , that could be our TWENTY-ONE and the arm of the clock is at THREE So that puts all three numbers we're looking for within the clock (the feet are at 4 and 5 which would be 9 (or 14+15 = 29), but I have no connection to the verse for that...) (picture of the maquerade book)

mariska wrote:: (the feet are at 4 and 5 which would be 9 (or 14+15 = 29), but I have no connection to the verse for that...) notsoclevr wrote:: Montreal (may be a bit of a stretch); 2, 20, 2, and 12 Feet are actually pointing to 4 and 4:30 (pointing to the dot between 4 and 5) 2-22 is a better fit for Image 1

Just listened to new podcast. Excellent discussion in last 20 minutes about puzzle methodology. In particular, the idea of pairing paintings to the verses. It has been discussed before, but there had to have been a way to match each painting to each verse without having to pair all 12 of them. Each painting (besides Milwaukee) has coordinates hidden, but what then? It would be interesting to know why the Cleveland seekers chose their particular verse and Chicago as well.