Here are the I/V pairings: I---V 1--7 2--6 3--11 4--4 5--12 6--9 7--2 8--1 9--5 10--8 11--3 12--10 It will become apparent that they cannot be any other.

The intent of the puzzle was not to get us to follow clues (i.e., from A to B to C to D) to a treasure site, but to determine which clues we should be looking for. We were taken to A and B and C and D for a reason, but not to dig. Ever wonder why you always end up on an "overlook" when trying to follow a path? Ask yourself the question when you get there... "What am I overlooking?"

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Here are the I/V pairings: You cannot tie a verse to an image with any certainty, rather you must tie each to a city. They can only then be paired.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: 1. These prove a constant, clues are predictable. If you think you have correctly interpreted the count or clock in an image, there is another clue to confirm you are correct (and you can accurately predict what it is). Likewise, if you can identify the jewel, you can accurately predict a count or a clock in the image. 2. These are found in many of JJP's paintings outside of the book, and they mean nothing to this book (e.g., https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8e/61/80/8e6180009c20a103fb2cf6a67136421f.jpg ). 3. The type of character does not give a clue, but the fairy is always a clue. A predictable one at that. *edit: I take this back. the type of character is a clue, too. a confirmation clue, and a predictable one. At a distance in space, at a distance in time Count on the spheres/circles, count on the clock the clock Fairy secrets come in twos. This and that. Women and men. Entrance and exit.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Ask yourself the question when you get there... "What am I overlooking?" from stone to stone to stone to stone from person to person to person to person from sign to sign to sign to sign from gate to gate to gate to gate from column to column to column to column from direction to direction to direction to direction from building to building to building to building ...

You don't need any of this to start out, but it's there. Cleveland was proof of concept. The poet (pindar) and the artist (apelles) come together in one place - the wall, shown in the image. You weren't supposed to figure that out at the time, though. You were just supposed to eventually be able to dig it up. Moving to Chicago, you needed to start to evaluate what was important in the previous puzzle. Was it columns, statues, roads, walls, people, words? The puzzle seems to work in much the same manner as Cleveland (i.e., follow the description of things), but we know that Chicago is just a bit different. In Chicago, the intent was never to get a person to actually dig up the casque here. It was to make it as nearly easy to get to the spot as in Cleveland, but slightly more difficult by moving the usage of the clues a bit to the more abstract. Chicago's image was a city on broad shoulders, a windy city Chicago's poem was Sandburg - Chicago Poems, Windy City, City of the Broad Shoulders They come together at Sandburg's A fence... shown in the image. Get THERE, and BP gave it up.

Progressively, the puzzles get more difficult. The verbatim clues disappear - both image and verse - and very quickly. You start believing you are still being told where to go, in detail, but it's because you are following the wrong clues. Eventually though, if you know what you are looking for, you need no direction at all, and the verse and image can lead you in completely the wrong direction.

When you do know what you are looking for, clues and their placement become predictable. You have to be playful, though. Pandora Longfellow Rosetti Red Cross The poet and the painters come together at the compass rose. Do you see it?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: When you do know what you are looking for, clues and their placement become predictable. You have to be playful, though. The poet and the painters come together at the compass rose. North of this Take steps in this area In the area of direction In the middle Pass that Face this Put your back to that Feel at this Directions... look for directions. Where are there directions?

Do you wonder why more and more and more parks in each city become plausible? Do you wonder why more and more and more spots in each park become plausible? Why this park over that? Why this spot over that? Sure that looks like a circle from the image, sure that looks like a square from the image. Sure that verse seems to describe this, sure that verse seems to describe that. Who am I to argue about interpretation? As the puzzles get harder, the manner of determining where to go becomes more and more necessary and less and less evident. You may think you got the Greek gardens by using the obvious clues, and you did. Same with Chicago, somewhat. But BP obscured the way he wanted you to get there. You have to start figuring this out as the obvious clues drift away.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: North of this Take steps in this area In the area of direction In the middle Pass that Face this Put your back to that Feel at this Directions... look for directions. Where are there directions? I will call a bit of BS here. You are clearly speaking about Boston and I simply don’t buy the vagueness of your statements. You, me and anyone with an imagination can connect the verse/poem with just about any location if we try hard enough. I’ve read through dozens of your posts before you edit/scrubbed them and you are just as guilty as anyone of doing this. (For more than one site in Boston alone.) Where does the painter give you anything compass rose related? JJP is a fantastic artist, when looking at his work there is no need for visual interpretation. His image “confirmers” are beyond question. Pray tell, what has the artist given you to land at the Compass Rose?

Spiritr wrote:: reading through dozens of his posts was one thing, understanding what he wrote in his post was another... I would love to understand. This is exactly why I posed the question. Everything he has said is wonderful, lovely and a great way to think about the puzzles. I am simply asking him to back up his statements with proof or at least new information. The exact thing he would have required before his previous temper tantrum. Never mind though, I suppose I would need a press pass like yours to figure it out.

BINGO wrote:: I will call a bit of BS here. You are clearly speaking about Boston and I simply don’t buy the vagueness of your statements. You, me and anyone with an imagination can connect the verse/poem with just about any location if we try hard enough. I’ve read through dozens of your posts before you edit/scrubbed them and you are just as guilty as anyone of doing this. (For more than one site in Boston alone.) BINGO wrote:: Where does the painter give you anything compass rose related? Pray tell, what has the artist given you to land at the Compass Rose? BINGO wrote:: JJP is a fantastic artist, when looking at his work there is no need for visual interpretation. His image “confirmers” are beyond question. Not really sure how to respond to this. Sure, I removed a bunch of posts... it had to do with Renner, not whether I perceived the connections to be correct or incorrect. And yes, lots of it was me trying to connect a verse/image with about any location, same as the rest of the board. How is that working out for everyone? I've been here about a decade, and others twice that. How many times does it take to try and fit a round peg in a square hole before you realize it ain't productive. These posts are not meant to be vague, but divulging all at once is impossible. And, understanding all at once is just as unwieldy. A decade of searching can't be explained in a few posts. Your assumption is there's a simple answer. It's not that simple as you've seen. Rosetti Red Cross The compass rose behind Pandora It's not just about identifying what the artist gives you... bowman, lady of lakes, horses, columns, lions, jewels, walls, numbers, flowers, fairies, etc... it's what he gives you that is productive for finding the site. The same goes for the verses. Who decides what the image confirmers are? Is the war memorial woman an image confirmer? Could it be another statue? Is the building in the box BU Castle? Could it be another building? Is Ponce one? You sure that's ponce? Are the greek columns one? You sure they are the ones at the head of the garden? Who decides which image confirmers are important? Why was it not buried by the cup in the Italian gardens? Why was it not buried by the Great Lakes or Bowman statues?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Who decides what the image confirmers are? Is the war memorial woman an image confirmer? Could it be another statue? Is the building in the box BU Castle? Could it be another building? Is Ponce one? You sure that's ponce? Are the greek columns one? You sure they are the ones at the head of the garden? Who decides which image confirmers are important? Why was it not buried by the cup in the Italian gardens? Why was it not buried by the Great Lakes or Bowman statues? Honestly, I’ve been all over Boston everyday for the last 5 years and I don’t buy a single image match that people have come up with and hold as gospel. Columbus statue, war memorial, 2c structure, electrical box/ pipe on the bridge, Leif Ericsson statue are all a joke in comparison to the Chicago fence, the Bowman, the Cleveland wall, all of the other known and undisputed image “confirmers”. To me, anything less than that is a case of visual interpretation. I’m not saying that you are wrong, I’m simply asking for the evidence.

BINGO wrote:: I would love to understand. This is exactly why I posed the question. Everything he has said is wonderful, lovely and a great way to think about the puzzles. I am simply asking him to back up his statements with proof or at least new information. BINGO wrote:: Honestly, I’ve been all over Boston everyday for the last 5 years and I don’t buy a single image match that people have come up with and hold as gospel. Columbus statue, war memorial, 2c structure, electrical box/ pipe on the bridge, Leif Ericsson statue are all a joke in comparison to the Chicago fence, the Bowman, the Cleveland wall, all of the other known and undisputed image “confirmers”. To me, anything less than that is a case of visual interpretation. With all respect, your frustration is not with the lack of information being presented, it's with the lack of understanding, as you stated. I do aim to give you the ability to put it together, but I must first present it. That being said, you can lead a horse to water... Good, than you can see already that the image confirmers disappear, much like anything truly meaningful in the verses. What would make you think that you need these to solve a puzzle, then? Many have looked for 20+ years... just one more to find the right one, right?

There are major and minor artists and authors. Think Rossetti and Copley.

Unknown: Any chance that all of this research and general knowledge has produced a third (or possibly fourth) casque? Not that I am aware of Bingo. But wouldn't you agree than knowing where and how to look for those elusive things is better than digging random holes on hunches, hoping to get lucky?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: There are major and minor artists and authors. Think Rossetti and Copley. https://imgur.com/a/WsZlLsK Pandora portrait by Rosetti. I don’t have a copy of the Copley fairly painting on hand but I’m familiar with that as well. The Red Cross Knight? Next?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Not that I am aware of Bingo. But wouldn't you agree than knowing where and how to look for those elusive things is better than digging random holes on hunches, hoping to get lucky? I’ve dug my fair share of holes with very little to show for it. I have never put a shovel in the ground without having a reason for doing so. Either my own bad theory or one that belongs to someone else. Getting lucky has never been part of the equation for me. I think most people would benefit from actually venturing out and testing their theories on the ground. It is much easier to do research and make endless connections than it is to dig holes.

BINGO wrote:: https://imgur.com/a/WsZlLsK Pandora portrait by Rosetti erexere wrote:: I really love the Pandora's Box motif. A painting of Pandora from 1881 shows her with long red hair. This really gels for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box Now, that's very good. Erexere, you were so close...just needed to scroll down a bit...!

While we are doing some deep literary diving, let’s check out this little tidbit. In it, you will find the names Longfellow, Copley and Rosetti. It’s even edited in 3 volumes! Will this help get us to a casque?

Saint Monica and Saint Augustine, Scheffer.

And here I was thinking "him of Hard word in 3 Vols." was a pun for (John D.) Rockefeller Senior, Junior or 3rd. ... :-)

Unknown: Need one of these? Unlikely. There is enough pressure built up to do the job just fine. It's just a matter of time.

More likely it’s the hero of a novel or a mention about the novel’s author. The three volume novel was the standard back in the early print days. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-volume_novel

jayheedan was right, i just broke that clue via his suggestion. takes some six degrees to get to the answer but it took me like 2 mins after i clicked on that link.

if anything my previous reading is the secondary clue, with this being the primary.

Which Clues do you think BP wanted us to use... The ones we argue about or the ones nobody argues about?

one that nobody have never ever even thought about.

there are lots noone look at...the angel in st augustine...or the guy in thought (a philosopher)...or the guy holding two round objects...or the wilma looking head in NO...the fish/duck looking thing in NO...what is probably trotsky in nyc...etc

Unknown: If you haven't learned it, you're not moving on. Similarly, if you hold on to it past the point when it's no longer useful, you're not moving on either.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Match an image with a verse. Match a poet with a portrait. So, you're suggesting that each image has a painting, each verse has a poem, and these provide a consistent clue to the image/verse pair. For Boston, you've suggested Rossetti's Pandora , and Longfellow's Masque of Pandora ...? For Houston, you've given the hint "columns in the desert". Would the poet be Melville, perhaps In The Desert ...? There must be thousands of paintings with columns though. Likewise, "woman floating over water" is pretty vague for NY. You've paired I9, generally thought to be based on a Rembrandt self-portrait, with V5; but Poe seems the likeliest poetic link for that verse, and I haven't been able to connect them. You've matched I1, thought to be Virgin of the Rocks, with V7, which mentions Twain, but I haven't been able to find a poetic connection with him, or anyone else (except Rossetti again). It's an interesting idea, but I think I'm happy to let someone else do the legwork...

I had a feeling that this thread was a preemptive strike for a big development. Did old JM steal your information to dig up casque number 3/4? We wouldn’t want you to not receive the credit you deserve.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: For Boston, you've suggested Rossetti's Pandora , and Longfellow's [i]Masque of Pandora[/i I assume that the Lanlord’s Tale by Longfellow is the poem/poet combo that he is alluding to. Verse 3 has a pretty distinct line that parallels that poem.

Unknown: Did old JM steal your information to dig up casque number 3/4? Not that you asked me, but I'll offer that most of the information "old JM" has from me was given to him freely. If he used any or all of it to dig up a casque, good for all of us. But if you don't mind, I'll wait for "old JM" to weigh in before I comment further.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Not that you asked me, but I'll offer that most of the information "old JM" has from me was given to him freely. If he used any or all of it to dig up a casque, good for all of us. But if you don't mind, I'll wait for "old JM" to weigh in before I comment further. With all due respect, that question was directed at the OP. I have a feeling that his take might be slightly different than yours. The overall tone and even the title of this thread is in poor taste imo. I don’t know, nor do I care if JM found a casque or if it is just an advertising ploy for their brand. Either way, the tone and delivery of this thread is childish.

Unknown: With all due respect, that question was directed at the OP With all due respect Bingo, my post was not directed at you. Carry on.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: don't worry, I'll keep bumping it with new info for you all. also, feel free to ask questions, and i will answer truthfully without intent to misguide.

Unknown: I don’t know, nor do I care if JM found a casque or if it is just an advertising ploy for their brand. Near as I can tell Bingo, the only person who is suggesting that a third casque has been found is you. No mention of that has been made on the podcasts (quite the opposite), and near as I can tell, the pictures you posted are not in the public domain. And, most telling, the people who are in a position to know are not talking. Clearly you are trying to provoke a response, based on incomplete information. Why is that?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Near as I can tell Bingo, the only person who is suggesting that a third casque has been found is you. No mention of that has been made on the podcasts (quite the opposite), and near as I can tell, the pictures you posted are not in the public domain. And, most telling, the people who are in a position to know are not talking. Clearly you are trying to provoke a response, based on incomplete information. Why is that? I’m not even a member of the Facebook group and I’ve received 3 texts this morning with that photo. I’d say someone is alluding to something. Fake news or not, even private groups on Facebook are as close to the public domain as one can get. I am simply asking the question if this is what this thread is really about. I apologize if I haven’t fellated the OP during the process.

Unknown: I’d say someone is alluding to something. I'd say that's probably true. But your issue should be with the people who are sending you the texts and the pictures, not 421. I get that you don't agree with his style (and for the record, I agree that the ad hominem attack is gratuitous and counter-productive), but he has made it clear what he is doing in this thread: posting information that will ultimately move the puzzle along. Isn't what this Forum is for?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: posting information that will ultimately move the puzzle along. Isn't what this Forum is for? I completely agree. Let’s quit the performance, cut through the BS and start doing just that. So far, I’ve seen no new information provided. Historical paintings, poetry and literary references have been thought to be inspirations for each image and verse and it has been discussed in many places here on q4t. Let’s hear how everything threads together and we will have the remaining casques excavated before the weekend.

Unknown: So far, I’ve seen no new information provided. Then you aren't paying attention. Forget about the why and trust me when I tell you that this thread will move the puzzle along, in due time. Probably not to your satisfaction though, if you think that anyone is close to digging up Casque #3 (or beyond).

BINGO wrote:: I assume that the Lanlord’s Tale by Longfellow is the poem/poet combo that he is alluding to. Verse 3 has a pretty distinct line that parallels that poem. Oh, maybe. For a minute I thought there might be a masterplan to consolidate the image/verse matches on the Wiki. (I expect JM & co are just having some fun with Trilling's spare casque.)

Unknown: Its something that seems to have been overlooked recently by post EU searchers including JC, I'm not sure I agree that it's only the post EU searchers that are overlooking basic puzzle methodology, but that remains to be seen. I do know that JC is Josh, and JM is John, and that 421's beef (such as it is) is with the latter. FWIW.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (I expect JM & co are just having some fun with Trilling's spare casque.) I tend to agree with you. I just thought it was perfect timing to pour a little gas on the fire that people are afraid to talk about...

Ok, I'll start over and try to add something productive to this thread. I have little knowledge and interest in any of the other puzzles aside from Boston. So, I will do my best to follow along and fill in what I can with the things related to Boston. Feel free to correct me if I am on the wrong path or not making the proper connection. Sound fair? Rosetti Painting of Pandora (Clearly an inspiration of Pandora's box in Image 11) Copley Painting Red Cross Knight (Similar to the Fairy in Image 11) This is a crude compass that I fashioned out of image 11. I used the stone ring behind Pandora as the outer edge of the compass and then aligned the center of that ring with the single star in the image, creating True North. (Assuming the star represents Polaris/North Star) I am a land surveyor, so with any compass, True North and Magnetic North should be clearly noted. The difference between the two is called declination. In Boston, the angle between True North and Magnetic North is just under 15 degrees to the West. (Notice how some of the lines seem to match up outside the ring?) Doesn't mean anything at this point, but I thought it might be applicable to 421thrasher's original teachings. Let the lesson continue without any further disruption. I'm sorry.

Thanks Bingo; both you and 421 have contributed a lot to Boston, and I find this the most interesting puzzle at the moment.

BINGO wrote:: Ok, I'll start over and try to add something productive to this thread. I have little knowledge and interest in any of the other puzzles aside from Boston. So, I will do my best to follow along and fill in what I can with the things related to Boston. Feel free to correct me if I am on the wrong path or not making the proper connection. Sound fair? Rosetti Painting of Pandora (Clearly an inspiration of Pandora's box in Image 11) Copley Painting Red Cross Knight (Similar to the Fairy in Image 11) This is a crude compass that I fashioned out of image 11. I used the stone ring behind Pandora as the outer edge of the compass and then aligned the center of that ring with the single star in the image, creating True North. (Assuming the star represents Polaris/North Star) I am a land surveyor, so with any compass, True North and Magnetic North should be clearly noted. The difference between the two is called declination. In Boston, the angle between True North and Magnetic North is just under 15 degrees to the West. (Notice how some of the lines seem to match up outside the ring?) Doesn't mean anything at this point, but I thought it might be applicable to 421thrasher's original teachings. Let the lesson continue without any further disruption. I'm sorry. In addition to the Red Cross Knight is Copley's rendition of Paul Revere. https://imgur.com/a/1bYuvEK https://imgur.com/a/S0lix65

BINGO wrote:: Ok, I'll start over and try to add something productive to this thread. I have little knowledge and interest in any of the other puzzles aside from Boston. So, I will do my best to follow along and fill in what I can with the things related to Boston. Feel free to correct me if I am on the wrong path or not making the proper connection. Sound fair? Rosetti Painting of Pandora (Clearly an inspiration of Pandora's box in Image 11) Copley Painting Red Cross Knight (Similar to the Fairy in Image 11) This is a crude compass that I fashioned out of image 11. I used the stone ring behind Pandora as the outer edge of the compass and then aligned the center of that ring with the single star in the image, creating True North. (Assuming the star represents Polaris/North Star) I am a land surveyor, so with any compass, True North and Magnetic North should be clearly noted. The difference between the two is called declination. In Boston, the angle between True North and Magnetic North is just under 15 degrees to the West. (Notice how some of the lines seem to match up outside the ring?) Doesn't mean anything at this point, but I thought it might be applicable to 421thrasher's original teachings. Let the lesson continue without any further disruption. I'm sorry. BINGO - Looking at your compass, I notice that the something in the wall at right that some interpret as 112 (degree symbol) - looks like it may lie at approximately 112 degrees, clockwise from your true north. I haven't checked it with a compass. Might that be a clue? What in the painting lies on the 112 degree line? Does it point to anything in particular? (Eyeballing it, looks like it might go right through the jewel)...Anyone?

I might be pursaded to buy into the each v/p having been based on a famous literary work/painting. Not sure how that would help though unless the park in question was at an intersection of this famous poet and that famous painter. I find it really hard to believe that we would have to copy or flip or rotate, intersect compass lines and or duplicate and overlay ect to find a casque. Seems like a rabbit hole conspiracy theories. Yes the “more expensive gems were designed to be more difficult,” but more likely that would have been by way of more obscure literature clues and probably less visual clues. Coupled with the fact that a lot of landscapes have changed in four decades and a lot of confederate and “offensive” statues/monuments being removed some may never be found; on purpose anyhow. Do you think Preiss worked so closely with JJP enough to have him duplicate such complicated components into the art works? Did JJP say that he burned more than just photos? I suppose its possible but at this point I’m not a believer since two have been found with out such methodology...even if they were “easy.”

maltese falcon is 1000% in there but not via that clue. i mean, searching for a jewel encrusted falcon? how could it not, hell...even the black bird (is to the maltese falcon what high tension is to vertigo) is referenced. thats not the three volume novel youre looking for.

The lane that has no turning. It must be remembered that the sea is a great breeder of friendship. Northern lights. The Citadel, a night wind-swept and bound about with glee. One more flight of a wingless bird.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: The lane that has no turning. It must be remembered that the sea is a great breeder of friendship. Northern lights. The Citadel, a night wind-swept and bound about with glee. One more flight of a wingless bird. Gilbert Parker Ary Scheffer -full disclosure, I’m not making a connection with this one.

What was the connection on the last one?

parker wrote about the plains of abraham in the seats of the mighty. i dont recall if i saw a scheffer painting, but you are taken to the museum of fine arts to see the dutch golden age painting exhibit, where you learn it was the dutch golden age artists who influenced the golden age of painting in montreal after which you are taken through the beaver hall exhibit. tbh scheffer relates much more to the nola puzzle via his fate being tied to the orleans monarchy, and having painted a famous portrait of lafayette.

you can also get a hint about the reading of the of him in hard words in 3 vols clue for nyc from parker via mrs falchion (itself released as a 3 vol novel).

jayheedan1 wrote:: What was the connection on the last one? All of the lines are quotes and titles of works from Gilbert Parker. All have strong Canadian ties. All are similar, if not direct, lines from verse 5. The painting is of Saint Augustine and his mother Saint Mónica by Ary Scheffer. Other than a connection to St Augustine Fl., that connection misses me.

Unknown: Other than a connection to St Augustine Fl. What else are you looking for? The puzzle has at least 5 steps, and this is Step #1A. Don't over-think it. (12-X)^2

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: What else are you looking for? The puzzle has at least 5 steps, and this is Step #1A. Don't over-think it. (12-X)^2 I admit that I am probably under thinking it. All that I am saying is that I don’t see the connection from that particular painting to The Secret. I am doing my best to forget everything that I’ve learned from forums and the internet over the last 5 years in order to follow along with this thread. Flushed the accepted pairings, flushed the known solves, flushed all of Josh’s posts. Clean slate. How does someone with a crisp copy of The Secret in 1982 connect that painting to the hunt? Honest question.

BINGO wrote:: How does someone with a crisp copy of The Secret in 1982 connect that painting to the hunt? Honest question. They don't. They find Cleveland and Chicago's Polaroids and easy clues with literal path/descriptions. They don't connect the painting until they start to realize what to look for, and have lost the ability to do anything with certainty. You clearly wouldn't be doing that with a fresh copy of the book in 1982.

or the absence of internet lol

Unknown: or the absence of internet The internet has certainly made research easier in many ways, but people were able to do research just fine with the tools they had at their disposal back in the day. Hard as that is for some to believe.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: The internet has certainly made research easier in many ways, but people were able to do research just fine with the tools they had at their disposal back in the day. Hard as that is for some to believe. i see zero evidence of this claim, other than perhaps its attributable to preiss.

Unknown: i see zero evidence of this claim Zero? Didn't your high school have a library?

sure, but how many people you know are adept at doing library research. especially as deep as you must go in these puzzles...thats a lifetime of work right there lol.

after making my own puzzle for niagara, i realized that solving them is worlds more lengthy than actually making them...as they tend to lay themselves out as long as you can fashion good clues.

took me about 2 weeks to design a good puzzle, i just need an artist to collab with. i know many artists (as im a musician) but not sure any have the qualifications im looking for. theres an artist in st augustine (a tattoo artist) that would be absolutely ideal imo. if i were the podcast peeps, id employ her to make the painting

you can see her art in the coffee shop by the macdonalds.

JoshCornell wrote:: took me about 2 weeks to design a good puzzle, i just need an artist to collab with. i know many artists (as im a musician) but not sure any have the qualifications im looking for. theres an artist in st augustine (a tattoo artist) that would be absolutely ideal imo. if i were the podcast peeps, id employ her to make the painting Sounds like a plan. You could get a backup on your butt for safekeeping.

or YOU could...

Hirudiniforme wrote:: They don't connect the painting until they start to realize what to look for, and have lost the ability to do anything with certainty. Sums up my current mental state. You have my undivided attention.

Unknown: Sums up my current mental state. Don't worry, you are in good company. Pretty much everyone (and I do mean everyone) has reached these roadblocks at one time or another, and most of them quit in frustration. The problem is that most of the roadblocks are of their own making, and they don't even realize it. Which is not to say the puzzle isn't full of them; it most assuredly is. The difference is that if they are part of the Preiss' design, then he also gave you a way to get around them. Or so I choose to believe.

yea, the verse lol.

Unknown: yea, the verse Ironically, the verses are also the biggest roadblock. That's Preiss.

Here ya go...St Augustine and St Monica of Hippo -> Hippodrome de Montréal . ( Google maps ). (*edit* Oh, not called that until 1995. Probably not then. I give up.)

Unknown: St Augustine and St Monica of Hippo - Seems like a tenuous connection to me WR. If this really is Step #1, then I suspect we are looking for more basic connections, even if they are hard to find. Like Abroad in America, for example. Hard to find perhaps, but not hard to understand. At all.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Seems like a tenuous connection to me WR. If this really is Step #1, then I suspect we are looking for more basic connections, even if they are hard to find. Like Abroad in America, for example. Hard to find perhaps, but not hard to understand. At all. Yeah but...we actually have no idea if/how/when this painting actually relates to anything remember... It's just a very abstract game without any rules.

Unknown: It's just a very abstract game without any rules. You've just described most people's understanding of the puzzle. Have some faith.

JoshCornell wrote:: theres an artist in st augustine (a tattoo artist) that would be absolutely ideal imo. if i were the podcast peeps, id employ her to make the painting Wow, just wow. They track down a casque from the original sculptor. Then they work with the original artist's son to create the painting and you think they should use a tattoo artist in Florida? Who should they have write the verse, one of the musicians (barkers) that you play your guitar next to in the subway? Please, go play Pat-a-cake with a maple tree somewhere.

This came out privatly a few months back (I have no doubt the theory originated with 421). I tried to form some connection with Keats, Remington, and st augustine... but I couldn't. I had better luck with oscar wilde who wrote "the grave of Keats" Was that your though as well?

BINGO wrote:: Wow, just wow. Now now. This is the post-#JoshToo generation.

Unknown: I have no doubt the theory originated with 421 This^.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: This^. Well... it's true. It's a good comprehensive theory, and he deserves credit. Someone messaged me on Facebook awhile back taking about the remington painting, and a the Rembrandt (which was common knowledge) they told me the every painting was inspired by another painting, and every verse was inspired by a poem... but they couldn't expand on that. It was obvious that it wasnt their idea.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Here ya go...St Augustine and St Monica of Hippo -> Hippodrome de Montréal . ( Google maps ). (*edit* Oh, not called that until 1995. Probably not then. i give up.) dont feel bad at all...that is very much a spot in the puzzle. youd get there via either george stephen or the statue in dorchester square.

dont stop there btw the goods are deeper

Hirudiniforme wrote:: They don't. They find Cleveland and Chicago's Polaroids and easy clues with literal path/descriptions. They don't connect the painting until they start to realize what to look for, and have lost the ability to do anything with certainty. You clearly wouldn't be doing that with a fresh copy of the book in 1982. shecrab wrote:: ...confirmed by old emails, where Preiss said he thought the casques and locations would all be found in very short order. ... One hand says, Preiss claimed that the puzzles easy and were expected to been solved quickly (probably why I read Priess was planning a follow up book and/or solutions book) The other hand claims, as the puzzles became harder they are supposed to change format forcing outside the box thinking, using obscure paintings and not well known poems, all this without the internet. An individual would have to have access to a well stocked library to find such clues. How does St Austine and his mother painting even resemble image 9? Or did I miss something from step 1 to step 1A?

the puzzles are not easy if you need to use a library, however, once you pick up on the model, they arent that hard...only with all the changes and new shit and what not make it confusing. these puzzles are long as hell...but you dont need to do everything (obviously) to find the treasure. its more a matter of putting in the time and doing the work...takes up your life lol

if you DO do everything though, its all very clear.

Unknown: Preiss claimed that the puzzles easy and were expected to been solved quickly He never made any such claim. While it would have been to his advantage to have his target audience think the puzzles were easy, what he actually said was that he was afraid that the puzzles would be solved quickly (presumably before he sold enough books) and his publisher would be mad at him. The difference is subtle, but again, that was Preiss.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Hall of 100 columns. IRAN

Unknown: Or did I miss something from step 1 to step 1A? I'm sorry, I'm not being consistent. Step 1 is matching an Image to a city. It's pretty easy for puzzles like Chicago, New York, and New Orleans as examples, even if you don't live there, but then it gets progressively harder. Fortunately, Preiss starts including other clues to get you past this hurdle, while simultaneously making the simpler clues harder to find, or removing them entirely. No one who has even the most basic understanding of this puzzle argues this point anymore for most of the casque cities, even though they aren't 100% sure we have all the cities correct. So, Step 1A would be to find the easiest cities using the most basic clues, and Step 1B would be to figure out the rest, using the same or similar methodologies that follow the progression. This thread is about Step 2, and the assumption is that the same methodology that we applied to Step 1 would apply to Step 2. Which is to say there is a way to know which Verse goes with which Image. And that the way will not be consistent over all 12 puzzles, but will change as we move from the easy ones (2A) to the harder ones (2B), but in a logical manner. I'd say that the fact that most reasonable people no longer argue about most (but not all) of the Verse/Image connections suggests that this is true as well. My guess is that by the time this thread has run its course, only unreasonable people will argue that the commonly accepted Verse/Image/City connections aren't correct. Everyone else will be able to move to Step 3, which is finding the correct park.

Meanwhile: The most important thread in the last 10 years is being ignored because...?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Meanwhile: The most important thread in the last 10 years is being ignored because...? How about giving us the fast burn option where we can look at the theory in its entirety, since I hope most here are educated adults, so we can decide if this thread has any merit or if it just non sequiter walkthrough.

Unknown: How about giving us the fast burn option where we can look at the theory in its entirety, IOW, just tell me the answer and I'll tell you if you are correct... As someone who seems to be still in doubt that the Verse/Image/City pairs that most reasonable people are using are correct Jay, I would think you would welcome the chance to explore how the initial steps work on your own, using the clues 421 chooses to divulge. It is a puzzle after all. I'm sure that is what other people are doing with the information, even if they choose not to share what they are finding here. No one has called BS yet, which should indicate something. But that's just my opinion. It's 421 who said that he would answer the questions.

And yet I have asked questions, 421 hasn’t answered... I do appreciate other interpretations and theories, I have even expressed a wanting to believe in this theory. I do not like vagueness and being mislead, if the intent is to do so on purpose. The vibe of this thread is that it isn’t a work in progress theory where 421 is asking for feedback or additional research, but as a complete fully polished theory that has led 421 and/or group to a casque(s) site. But we can only have in pieces or maybe I’m wrong? Idk cause the posts are to vague and what is posted seems to have nothing to do with anything. Even as they relate to each other. Makes fact checking and confirmation difficult. Just asking for some clarity.

Unknown: And yet I have asked questions, 421 hasn’t answered... Did you consider that he might be waiting for others to chime in and get the discussion going? You are not being mislead Jay. And if you don't like the "vibe" that's on you, not 421. It's on all of you. Full disclosure: I know for a fact that others have some of the information that 421 is posting, because I gave it to them myself. Some of them even still post in this forum under a recognizable handle, although not all. If the purpose of this forum, and those involved with the hunt in general is to truly move things along, this is the perfect opportunity to reclaim that lofty goal. Otherwise, it's just talk.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: If the purpose of this forum, and those involved with the hunt in general is to truly move things along, this is the perfect opportunity to reclaim that lofty goal. Otherwise, it's just talk. it seemed more from the original title of this thread that rather than move things along, this thread was to **** John, has that goal changed? That didnt seem very "lofty"

Unknown: has that goal changed You tell me Matt. Or were you unable to get past the title of the thread?

I'd like to think all the threads are working towards moving it along. which is why I was taken aback by the original title and purpose of this thread. It didn't seem to be aiming for "moving things along" as much as trying to cause problems. But I have no desire to hijack this thread so please carry on.

Unknown: I'd like to think all the threads are working towards moving it along. Unknown: It didn't seem to be aiming for "moving things along" as much as trying to cause problems. Unknown: But I have no desire to hijack this thread so please carry on. I'd like to think that too. Unfortunately, I know better, and so do you. You are confusing the problems of a few people with problems in the general sense. To that end, the information being presented will not cause problems as you imply. It will solve them. I'm done as well. Thank you for confirming what I have known to be true for the last six months. Carry on.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I'd like to think that too. Unfortunately, I know better, and so do you. You are confusing the problems of a few people with problems in the general sense. To that end, the information being presented will not cause problems as you imply. It will solve them. I'm done as well. Thank you for confirming what I have known to be true for the last six months. Carry on. actually I have seen huge progress on several casques in the last few months. I am not confusing anything, I don't imply the information will cause problems, I always welcome new information I suggested since the title of the thread was **** John, that I didn't think it was a good goal for a thread. I considered that a problem in the specific sense But since the thread title has been changed I am totally ok with it.

ive made more progress in the last 3 days (full puzzles not necessarily directly pertaining to the treasure hunt) than probably everyone else (minus travis) collectively since this was released lol. including 1 of 3 of the most important clues in the book (arguably the most important clue)...which ironically you have to figure out first to find lol.

Unknown: maltedfalcon wrote: I have seen huge progress on several casques in the last few months Unknown: Josh Cornell wrote: ive made more progress in the last 3 days (full puzzles not necessarily directly pertaining to the treasure hunt) than probably everyone else (minus travis) collectively Gotta love the irony. For reals.

If we could get back to the topic of poems and paintings, that would be great! 421 or Ren, how was a poem selected to sync with a painting/verse/etc. in your opinion?

Unknown: how was a poem selected Unknown: You cannot tie a verse to an image with any certainty, rather you must tie each to a city. They can only then be paired. Just to be clear Karleen, 421 said he would answer the questions, so I will defer to him in this thread. I'm providing color commentary, if you will. But if you read back, you will see that he said: So those are the connections you should be looking for. I will allow that NY is one of the hardest puzzles, at least with regard to these first few steps. As you know. But it becomes easier through process of elimination. (12-X)^2

Unknown: including 1 of 3 of the most important clues in the book (arguably the most important clue) So, make the argument Josh. That's what this thread is for. And since I am in the asking mode, if you could type it all out in a Word document before you post it, as opposed to piecemeal, it would make it a lot easier for all of us to follow your train of thought. Thanks in advance.

thats not necessarily true...you could identify the palm tree formed by the shadow of the faeries palm in charleston painting. so thats out.

prove to me you know whats going on and ill share with you

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Just to be clear Karleen, 421 said he would answer the questions, so I will defer to him in this thread. I'm providing color commentary, if you will. But if you read back, you will see that he said: So those are the connections you should be looking for. I will allow that NY is one of the hardest puzzles, at least with regard to these first few steps. As you know. But it becomes easier through process of elimination. (12-X)^2 Then, it appears, I'm confused. I was intrigued by the famous paintings referenced--and I recall that it had been discussed previously(ie - the remington)--and, an artist myself, I had difficulty pairing any artist with image 12(unless seurat, with the pointillism). If we are discussing the validity of the image to verse pairings only, please disregard my ignorance. km

im not telling you for a reason, mainly cause there is a plethora of trolls here who i have zero respect for. i get that people dont want me and travis to be right cause weve only been in the game since jan for me (later for trav)...im not obligated to hand you guys the keys. but if you show me that you get it...ill reveal all to you or if you give me a place to sleep in san fran...ill tell you all you want to know lol.

Unknown: If we are discussing the validity of the image to verse pairings only... If you are trying to solve this puzzle, it helps to KNOW that you are using the correct Image/Verse/City pairings. That is what is being discussed as a necessary first step. And to put an end, once and for all (for all but the most stubborn, unreasonable, or disingenuous among us) the nonsense that all ideas are good ideas until a casque is found. Some may find this trivial, but to them I would say that the steps being discussed here are the same steps used throughout the puzzle. So understanding and applying these principles to whatever step you happen to be on would be a good idea, IMO. In your case Karleen, you are on record as saying that you are sure that the NY casque is in Prospect Park (Step 3). I would ask you to consider how you KNOW that, and whether those reasons can be applied to at least 5 other puzzles, without ambiguity.

Unknown: but if you show me that you get it...ill reveal all to you I don't get it Josh, specifically what you think is (are) the most important clue(s) of the puzzle. That's why I asked. But if you don't want to share, that's fine. As you said, you are under no obligation. Carry on.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: If you are trying to solve this puzzle, it helps to KNOW that you are using the correct Image/Verse/City pairings. That is what is being discussed as a necessary first step. And to put an end, once and for all (for all but the most stubborn, unreasonable, or disingenuous among us) the nonsense that all ideas are good ideas until a casque is found. Some may find this trivial, but to them I would say that the steps being discussed here are the same steps used throughout the puzzle. So understanding and applying these principles to whatever step you happen to be on would be a good idea, IMO. In your case Karleen, you are on record as saying that you are sure that the NY casque is in Prospect Park (Step 3). I would ask you to consider how you KNOW that, and whether those reasons can be applied to at least 5 other puzzles, without ambiguity. Thank you. To clarify, I did say Prospect Park or the periphery. Enjoy your evening.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: So, make the argument Josh. That's what this thread is for. And since I am in the asking mode, if you could type it all out in a Word document before you post it, as opposed to piecemeal, it would make it a lot easier for all of us to follow your train of thought. Thanks in advance. Speaking of ironic , This thread by definition of the title is specifically all about the slow spill, To ask Josh to put his whole theory in a word doc before posting "as opposed to piecemeal" is a good idea, but are you asking 421 to do the same or are you just singling out Josh?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Gotta love the irony. For reals. The difference being , I have seen, not I have made... probably threw you with that subtlety.

Unknown: To ask Josh to put his whole theory Unknown: The difference being , I have seen, not I have made... Not his whole theory Matt, just what he considers "the most important clue(s)" of the whole puzzle. The Word document was just a suggestion because as you know, when it comes to Josh, "spill" is the operative word, not "slow". He declined, so any further discussion on this tangent is moot. Without evidence, it's a distinction without a difference. Unless you are willing to back up your statement with some facts, it is just an opinion, same as Josh's.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I don't get it Josh, specifically what you think is (are) the most important clue(s) of the puzzle. That's why I asked. But if you don't want to share, that's fine. As you said, you are under no obligation. Carry on. the most important clues tell you how to do the puzzle.

but you wont realize that unless you figured out how to do the puzzle lol (hence the irony)...

Unknown: but you wont realize that unless you figured out how to do the puzzle Imagine a spiral, instead of the circle you have described, and I think we agree.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: The lane that has no turning. It must be remembered that the sea is a great breeder of friendship. Northern lights. The Citadel, a night wind-swept and bound about with glee. One more flight of a wingless bird. To clarify, the image and verse here were not meant to be linked. This is simply two different clues. One for Montreal. One for St. Augustine.

maltedfalcon wrote:: it seemed more from the original title of this thread that rather than move things along, this thread was to **** John, has that goal changed? That didnt seem very "lofty" The goal of this thread is to spread information. This, in turn, f*cks John. And you. And others who have attempted to hide information and mislead others.

burnstyle wrote:: This came out privatly a few months back (I have no doubt the theory originated with 421). I tried to form some connection with Keats, Remington, and st augustine... but I couldn't. I had better luck with oscar wilde who wrote "the grave of Keats" Do tell.

burnstyle wrote:: I had better luck with oscar wilde who wrote "the grave of Keats" Thy name was writ in water

BINGO wrote:: Thy name was writ in water I asked BS. We all know the quote and where it appears... but BS seemed to have some luck connecting Wilde with St. Augustine as opposed to Keats. "I tried to form some connection with Keats, Remington, and st augustine... but I couldn't. I had better luck with oscar wilde who wrote "the grave of Keats" Why did Wilde connect to St. Augustine better than Keats?

Just trying to contribute and stay on topic.

BINGO wrote:: Just trying to contribute and stay on topic. Me too

An interesting pattern...

keats takes you to the lamia. obvs. (llambia house)

Unknown: keats takes you... Sure, why not? And hundreds of other places throughout the United States and Canada by exactly the same logic. That is, there is a connection we can make between something in the Image or Verse and something we find in North America, so that's what we are meant to do. Limiting those connections to specific cities is only slightly more useful given that what we are ultimately looking for is buried 3' underground, but it's a start. But that assumes we can agree on the connection being made, which is rarely the case. Until it is, which quells the argument and moves the puzzle forward. Which is what this thread is all about. This takes you to that, and nowhere else. IOW, this thread is not about possibilities, but eliminating possibilities. (12-X)^2

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Why did Wilde connect to St. Augustine better than Keats? I don't know really. I was in a situation where I didn't really understand the theory or method behind the information, just that there was a painting that linked to the city painting (remmington as best as anyone has put forth) And an author. Keats never really made sense... it doesn't seem to go back to anything related to St. Augustine (within the puzzle) that I could see. Wilde did however with the theme of Dorian Grey. That's the best I could put together without knowing what I was looking for, or why. *edit, though with your monica painting and Wilde being sort of, obsessed with confessions, I assume that is the connection you are drawing?

https://www.bartleby.com/126/36.html

burnstyle wrote:: Thy name was writ in water——it shall stand: And tears like mine will keep thy memory green, As Isabella did her Basil-tree. Any of those around town?

thats the link, not the clue.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Any of those around town? Well now... That is interesting.

So. If you are talking about the mule sculpture: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-waymarking- ... 23f074.jpg Afaik, that sculpture has been locked away since the park was made... you cant get close to it. But the connection is interesting. I'd say it could be coincidence, but these puzzles seems to have far too much in common to be a coincidence. Like each park having a reference inside it to another park in the puzzle, and each park having lat-long cords nearby (though some of them are incorrect) I still cant quite see how this relates to a dig site (though I do understand ren said this is only for establishing a city) This is an interesting rabbit hole to fall down, thank you for starting the conversation.

Unknown: I still cant quite see how this relates to a dig site Establishing a dig site is Step 5. And we may never get there for some or all of the puzzles (because Chicago*). But for now, we are still on Steps 1 and 2. I'm glad to see that we are finally making some progress. Truly. *And please, for the love of God, please don't anyone say that the Chicago puzzle resolves to a precise dig spot. It does not.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: *And please, for the love of God, please don't anyone say that the Chicago puzzle resolves to a precise dig spot. It does not. I'd agree with that as well. Those guys got pretty lucky with Byron still being alive, I'm sure that thing would still be in the ground had he not been. So my only two questions are How would someone in 1982 come to make these connections and where do we go once we have made them. There has to be some sort of rule right? or a guideline? Because without one, or without context of some sort, how would anyone just picking up the book know that they are traveling down the correct path and not just making stabs in the dark that result in coincidences? For instance, That poem references isabella and her basil, of which there is a painting, and due to the name (I am assuming) the statue on st george street. It's interesting that the painting is in a museum in boston by the BBF, but how would someone in 1982 know that was important if they had no concept of the puzzle as a whole? If we didnt already know where the cities and verses go, how would we KNOW that this information is helping us?

burnstyle wrote:: Well now... That is interesting. Is that still located at the Hispanic Gardens in St Augustine?

BINGO wrote:: Is that still located at the Hispanic Gardens in St Augustine? Yes https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Ge ... 81.3122049

cause part of the puzzle is telling you how to do the puzzle. everything is reinforced, so if you arent finding reinforcement youre probably way off. or guessing randomly.

Unknown: Those guys got pretty lucky with Byron still being alive Or the rest of us got pretty unlucky with BP's untimely death, and the fact that we were 20 years too late to the party. I'll let 421 address the rest of your questions George, but my response should give you some indication of what I think.

burnstyle wrote:: For instance, That poem references isabella and her basil, of which there is a painting, and due to the name (I am assuming) the statue on st george street. It's interesting that the painting is in a museum in boston Maybe I have it mixed up, but the Isabella and her pot of Basil painting by Hunt is a depiction of a scene from a Keats poem. I believe that one is located in England. There is one in Boston, by Alexander. Similar title and scene, but very different. Please correct me if I’m off on this.

burnstyle wrote:: how would someone in 1982 know [what] was important if they had no concept of the puzzle as a whole? burnstyle wrote:: If we didnt already know where the cities and verses go, how would we KNOW that this information is helping us? They wouldn't. They would "just make stabs in the dark that result in coincidences." You wouldn't. You wouldn't know it was helpful until you started floundering to connect verses and images, and you were forced to look outside the "box." When you go back and find that all cities for all verses and images can all be determined by literature and art, you would KNOW that the information is helpful. The nice thing about art and literature is it is stable and eternal. How do you reconcile that cleveland takes very little effort to solve, chicago only slightly more, and montreal is literally impossible? Don't the puzzles seem to be progressing from literal into oblivion? How much would you really need if you knew what you were looking for? How much do you really need to know to find a casque? An image/verse pair. A city. A park. An area of the park. An X.

Fenix wrote:: ...perhaps we need to uncover something that is fundamentally different than what people have accepted as template findings in the other verses/images. Fully agree.

burnstyle wrote:: So. If you are talking about the mule sculpture: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-waymarking- ... 23f074.jpg Afaik, that sculpture has been locked away since the park was made... you cant get close to it. But the connection is interesting. I'd say it could be coincidence, but these puzzles seems to have far too much in common to be a coincidence. Like each park having a reference inside it to another park in the puzzle, and each park having lat-long cords nearby (though some of them are incorrect) I still cant quite see how this relates to a dig site (though I do understand ren said this is only for establishing a city) This is an interesting rabbit hole to fall down, thank you for starting the conversation. I was hoping he was talking about this.... https://www.isabelasbarcuba.com/ ....so I could grab a cohiba, montecristo or padron, if I visit. Would be good to have, while looking around.

Mister EZ wrote:: ....so I could grab a cohiba, montecristo or padron, if I visit. Would be good to have, while looking around. Their house cigars are nice, and free when you buy a beer. 10/10 would recommend.

So if we accept the premise of this post so far, and we use this information to narrow down a city painting and a verse, where do we go from there? If I use all this to get to st aug, I still find myself sitting at the fountain of youth looking for a tree. Where do I go from here?

Unknown: How much do you really need to know to find a casque? A city. An image/verse pair. A park. An area of the park. An X. Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Step 4, and Step 5. The interesting thing about the last step is that you could fit all the information Preiss needed to know about Steps 1-3 in 3 or 4 well crafted sentences, and everything he needed to know about Step 4 in a few more. Or about the same amount of space reserved for the job on Page 220 of the book. Try it for Chicago or Cleveland if you don't agree.

burnstyle wrote:: So if we accept the premise of this post so far, and we use this information to narrow down a city painting and a verse, where do we go from there? burnstyle wrote:: If I use all this to get to st aug, I still find myself sitting at the fountain of youth looking for a tree. Where do I go from here? it's not really "narrowed down," it just is what it is. after you have done this successfully, choose a city to go to where you know one is, and start looking around. You probably start digging a shit ton of holes. Sooner or later you realize, the verse, at least in the manner believed, doesn't seem to really pinpoint anything. So, maybe you start working on another puzzle. Maybe you reassess the past. Maybe you call JJP and ask if there is a casque in FOY. Maybe you realize you are missing something. The book was pretty clear about not wanting you to dig random holes.

Unknown: You probably start digging a shit ton of holes. Nobody in their right mind digs a "shit ton of holes". Unless they have no other choice.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Nobody in their right mind digs a "shit ton of holes". Unless they have no other choice. or they are maltedfalcon LMAO

Unknown: or they are maltedfalcon Maltedfalcon fits into the broad second category that I mentioned. Digging up a casque may not be the only way to move the puzzle along, but it certainly is the surest. You have to assume BP knew this about the puzzle he constructed, and included "The Treasure" pages in the back of the book for that reason. Otherwise, we would have been instructed where to send the key if/when we found it, and nothing else.

burnstyle wrote:: So if we accept the premise of this post so far, and we use this information to narrow down a city painting and a verse, where do we go from there? If I use all this to get to st aug, I still find myself sitting at the fountain of youth looking for a tree. Where do I go from here? burnstyle, I would ask...."Why do you find yourself looking for a tree?" Fenix stated, and I agree for whatever that's worth: ...perhaps we need to uncover something that is fundamentally different than what people have accepted as template findings in the other verses/images. I realize many others have the verse line about the base of a tree as their key clue. But if you read the verse in a different segmented form, searchers for St. Augustine can get away from that "template". Instead of this: Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree. ( many people seem to be reading this section with a period after tree ) How about this segment: Behind bending branches and a green picket fence, at the base of a tall tree you can still hear the honking. As you know, I believe these lines in the Verse refer to the daily canon firing inside FOY next to the wooden Watchtower (tall tree) and not a location of the casque. Remember burnstyle, you helped me see some clues differently and get "away" from my original spot inside the Castillo and I thank you. Now maybe I get you or some others "away" from a tree.

This thread now has over 2,000 views, all in the last 10 days. To put that in perspective for our little corner of the internet, not counting the legacy threads (Image/Verse) fewer than 10 new threads have achieved that distinction. And only 2 in the last 6 months, both of which are essentially irrelevant and have dropped to Page 4 and Page 5, respectively. IOW, 2,000 is a lot of views for us. Now most of that could just be 421 manically clicking away in the dark, like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction". But somehow I doubt that's the cause for all those views. No, people are reading, and wondering. Hopefully they are researching, and thinking, and talking. And trying to figure things our for themselves. If you are one of those people, good for you. It's a puzzle. And it's fun. But I feel compelled at this point to tell you that there are others, besides 421 (and let's be honest, me) who have had some or all of this information for over 2 years. And neither of us, and none of them have a casque to show for it, as far as I know. Not only do the puzzles get harder, but the Steps get harder as well. There is seemingly no end to the rabbit holes you can go down on the internet, and the paths you can do down in the parks in search of those elusive 2' x 2' patches of ground. But, there are still 10 puzzles to solve, and there are still 10 casques to be found, some of which (in whole or in part) may still be exactly where Preiss put them almost 37 years ago. And hopefully, by reading this thread, you are in a better place to move things along, and perhaps even find one of them. Happy hunting.

MrBackstop wrote:: As you know, I believe these lines in the Verse refer to the daily canon firing inside FOY next to the wooden Watchtower (tall tree) and not a location of the casque. Remember burnstyle, you helped me see some clues differently and get "away" from my original spot inside the Castillo and I thank you. Now maybe I get you or some others "away" from a tree. Ok cool, but that watchtower was built 5 or 6 years ago. There was nothing there before that. I'll try to find an exact date for you.

Construction began on the cannon firing exhibit in 2010 https://imgur.com/ebBzbIK Construction of the watchtower in 2013 https://imgur.com/a/YWLHOps

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: But I feel compelled at this point to tell you that there are others, besides 421 (and let's be honest, me) who have had some or all of this information for over 2 years. And neither of us, and none of them have a casque to show for it, as far as I know. This statement infers that "The others" were trying to apply this information actively to the hunt. I don't think that was/is the case. Personally I just don't see how this would help the first purchasers of this book (the people that BP worried would solve the hunt almost overnight[or at least too quickly]) The only progress that has happened so far, has been people simply, totally familiar with their local hunts... you only see these associations after huge amounts of google searches and multiple people collaborating So while the associations are real and there, I think they are artifacts of the construction of the puzzles, and while that let BP have a full and robust prose and beautiful imagery, It's interesting, but I don't think it leads anywhere. Like the rest of the book, I consider this, rubrum clupea pallasi still if someone else can use this to go forward and make progress, I cheer you on.

Unknown: This statement infers that "The others" were trying to apply this information actively to the hunt. I know some were Matt. The reason that most of this information is no big deal to most of the others is that none of them seriously think that we don't have the correct City/Verse/Image connections. They have moved on to Step 3, and beyond.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Personally I just don't see how this would help the first purchasers of this book maltedfalcon wrote:: The only progress that has happened so far, has been people simply, totally familiar with their local hunts... maltedfalcon wrote:: you only see these associations after huge amounts of google searches and multiple people collaborating maltedfalcon wrote:: So while the associations are real and there, I think they are artifacts of the construction of the puzzles It wouldn't have. They would have focused on the easier aspects of the puzzle... Cleveland, Chicago, follow a path to an end point, follow a road from a building to a park. They would've started coming up dry pretty quick. If you mean the Chicago finders, true. The guys who found it in Cleveland used the internet and were not from the area. One just found the spot pictured on the internet, and sent the other to dig it up (who was on his was to Philly to dig, btw). Where else has there been progress? Legion? Not if you know what you are looking for. You mean to tell me that each verse and image is BASED upon a work of literature and art, and they are just artifacts of construction with no meaning?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Playbill I think this is a good example of what Matt was talking about. Let's say you are a dude living in Idaho in 1983, and you just bought a copy of the secret. How are you supposed to know what the 1980 lost colony playbill looks like? And if that is integral to the puzzle, why would Byron choose something for inspiration that changes year to year, and would have been last used 2 years before the book came out? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I've just been curious about this theory for awhile, but I can't get anyone to explain the method they are using.... which makes the information shared seem like random shots in the dark with no connection to anything else. The closest I've come to anyone explaining it is Josh... and he still leaves huge gaps out, because of that his theories seem crazy to most people. This is the first time anyone has tried explaining in depth, and I appreciate it. I hope it ultimately helps everyone.

burnstyle wrote:: Let's say you are a dude living in Idaho in 1983, and you just bought a copy of the secret. How are you supposed to know what the 1980 lost colony playbill looks like? And if that is integral to the puzzle, why would Byron choose something for inspiration that changes year to year, and would have been last used 2 years before the book came out? You know what never changes or goes away (with the exception of Alexandria)? Art. Literature.

Unknown: Let's say you are a dude living in Idaho in 1983 A dude in Idaho would be SoL with regard to this puzzle, regardless of whether he could connect the playbill to Roanoke. Nobody was traveling any great distance to search for a casque when the prize was worth, on average, about $850. He might convince himself that there was a casque buried in Boise, and send in a solution to BP (Visual Publications or otherwise), but would have gotten no response, and he would have promptly forgotten about "The Secret" altogether. The reason this theory works, and the only reason anyone should pay attention to it is because in 2018, it is predictive. That is, what comes first and is easy to find informs what comes later and is hard to find. And that's true no matter where you live.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Would this count as art or literature? I would say neither, this is local ephemera, the kind of stuff BP probably collected when burying the casque and then sent on to JJP. like a map of golden gate park or a brochure for the FOY or Castillo.

Unknown: I'm missing something here... where in the Montreal image is the covered-over second flower? The answer to your question can be found on the bottom of Page 113 of the Image 9 thread (which is currently near the top of Page 3). It's a screenshot from the Expedition Unknown episode about "The Secret", and shows the original, unedited painting for Montreal.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: The answer to your question can be found on the bottom of Page 113 of the Image 9 thread (which is currently near the top of Page 3). It's a screenshot from the Expedition Unknown episode about "The Secret", and shows the original, unedited painting for Montreal. Thank you! The uncovered original is very interesting, there being fleurs-de-lis on the Montreal and Quebec flags, etc. The coverup doesn't even cover the tips of the top three petals of the fleur-de-lis. If the original painting didn't have the coverup applied to it, then it was probably done in the pre-press stage of production. (MHO, I agree with the wiki that the coverup looks like a part of the Habitat 67 apartments.)

Kalessin wrote:: The uncovered original is very interesting, there being fleurs-de-lis on the Montreal and Quebec flags, etc. The coverup doesn't even cover the tips of the top three petals of the fleur-de-lis. If the original painting didn't have the coverup applied to it, then it was probably done in the pre-press stage of production. (MHO, I agree with the wiki that the coverup looks like a part of the Habitat 67 apartments.) Now that you have come to conclusion on if... WHY the cover up?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Now that you have come to conclusion on if... WHY the cover up? I know it's got to be something more sinister than a reconsideration before going to final print that they felt a fleur-de-lis might be a little too obvious to use as clue for the Montreal cask. E: Did the fleur-de-lis throw the progression of difficulty all askew?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Now that you have come to conclusion on if... WHY the cover up? IMHO, because it made locating the image in Montreal just a bit too easy, a golden square (mile) with a fleur-de-lis in it. Habitat 67 is quite a bit more obscure, and also reinforces the Expo '67 theme. If the left-hand flower in Image 7 is also a fleur-de-lis, then it might make sense to not have two images with such. Which is one reason why I think that Milwaukee was supposed to be the easiest location to find. That rebus isn't obscured in the least.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: I know it's got to be something more sinister than a reconsideration before going to final print that they felt a fleur-de-lis might be a little too obvious to use as clue for the Montreal cask. Is there a reason it couldn't be just that?

Kalessin wrote:: Which is one reason why I think that Milwaukee was supposed to be the easiest location to find. That rebus isn't obscured in the least. Kalessin wrote:: Milwaukee was supposed to be the easiest location to find The rebus has nothing to do with the burial location (other than it is in that city, which is no help at all once there). Correlating an easy to determine city with an easy to determine dig spot is clearly flawed. and yet nobody can make heads or tails of the last lines at the base of the ravine, unlike Chicago and Cleveland.

Kalessin wrote:: Is there a reason it couldn't be just that? No. But there is a reason it wouldn't be just that.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: The rebus has nothing to do with the burial location (other than it is in that city, which is no help at all once there). Correlating an easy to determine city with an easy to determine dig spot is clearly flawed. and yet nobody can make heads or tails of the last lines at the base of the ravine, unlike Chicago and Cleveland. Allow me to be more specific: I meant to say Milwaukee was supposed to be the easiest *city* to find. And maybe: The Milwaukee rebus appears with an obvious image of Milwaukee city hall, might imply one should look for city-indentifying buildings in other images. As have been found.

Unknown: might imply one should look for city-indentifying buildings in other images. As have been found. How many? Three for sure, maybe four. Certainly no more than that before the arguments begin. And in my experience, once the argument begins, it's time to look to something else.

at 421 see my montreal solution...i explain that. he made the puzzle better by covering up the fleur de lis.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: The rebus has nothing to do with the burial location (other than it is in that city, which is no help at all once there). Correlating an easy to determine city with an easy to determine dig spot is clearly flawed. and yet nobody can make heads or tails of the last lines at the base of the ravine, unlike Chicago and Cleveand. umm you really need to catch up on things...we know the location...i know the exact dig spot...

Hirudiniforme wrote:: No. But there is a reason it wouldn't be just that. IMO it confuses the image. If you show me a fleur-de-lis I'm going to automatically assume it's NOLA.

Coverups do make it harder... I think I see your point. If we assume the purple circle on the St Aug flag was placed after the painting was made, and its covering up the fort, it would be placed there to make the image harder. The fort is far too iconic, it would make matching that painting to a city a cinch.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: How many? Three for sure, maybe four. Certainly no more than that before the arguments begin. And in my experience, once the argument begins, it's time to look to something else. water tower city hall transit building fort sumter st nicholas church the castillo so at least those there is also the castle in boston i thought that was identified but i dont keep up really with that one so maybe that one is arguable but basically 8 with identifiable buildings

maltedfalcon wrote:: there is also the castle in boston Let the argument begin...

Unknown: Let the argument begin... Thank you Bingo. But that's what happens when you are beholden to a theory that basically falls apart after the first two puzzles.

maltedfalcon wrote:: water tower city hall transit building fort sumter st nicholas church the castillo so at least those there is also the castle in boston i thought that was identified but i dont keep up really with that one so maybe that one is arguable but basically 8 with identifiable buildings Also the face of the Statue of Liberty I don’t think anyone argues about But then we have the written references to physical buildings and land masses as well The ones most agree about: Three stories of Mitchell St Charles hotel/Lafayette square Fence and fixture Look north at the wing to achieve by dauntless and (I)(u)ncoquerable Etc. Then there are the others most don’t know or largely disagree on: There’s the spout! Giant pole/stone walls door Grey giant/isle of B Etc.

Unknown: Also the face of the Statue of Liberty I don’t think anyone argues about Funny thing about that, especially if you are looking for works of art to tie an Image to a City. You know, so you don't go looking for these things in Boise. Step 1B

There's also a possible, very shadowed, Coit Tower in SF image 1, standing on its squared-off base...

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Funny thing about that, especially if you are looking for works of art to tie an Image to a City. You know, so you don't go looking for these things in Boise. Step 1B That's true, however in 1982 there were around 250 replica Statues of Liberty around the United States at least 3 besides the original were located in NY NY. There are actually 2 SOLs 30 feet tall each in Buffalo NY Alabama has a 36 foot tall one. and to be clear there is one 10 hours north of Boise, Liberty pier, on lake Pend Oreille, but it was installed in 2003.

Kalessin wrote:: There's also a possible, very shadowed, Coit Tower in SF image 1, standing on its squared-off base... i think the nose when flipped upside down is a better match for coit. there is something ghostly in that section you posted, i was asking for a zoom of exactly that before (so thank you) but it doesnt seem to have made anything more clear (oh well...)

Unknown: That's true, however in 1982 there were around 250 replica Statues of Liberty around the United States C'mon Matt, now you aren't even trying. And with each post like the one above, and with all due respect, your credibility on here sinks a little lower.

maltedfalcon wrote:: That's true, however in 1982 there were around 250 replica Statues of Liberty around the United States at least 3 besides the original were located in NY NY. There are actually 2 SOLs 30 feet tall each in Buffalo NY Alabama has a 36 foot tall one. and to be clear there is one 10 hours north of Boise, Liberty pier, on lake Pend Oreille, but it was installed in 2003. the ones in buff are on top of a building

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: C'mon Matt, now you aren't even trying. And with each post like the one above, and with all due respect, your credibility on here sinks a little lower. oh dang, you got me. Just playing. obviously you start on the Liberty Island, Take the Ferry to Battery Park go up alongside Central Park and then turn at St Nicholas. Just like Chicago, Cleveland, Charleston, St Augustine and San Francisco

oh dang, you got me. Just playing. obviously you start on the Liberty Island, Take the Ferry to Battery Park go up alongside Central Park and then turn at St Nicholas. Just like Chicago, Cleveland, Charleston, St Augustine and San Francisco[/quote] Possibly New Orleans, & Milwaukee The weird ones being Boston,Roanoke, Houston, & Montreal So you are saying that things repeat across verses, first obviously but then as the puzzles get more difficult the methods fade and disapear. is that a good summary? and that there are physical methods, Literature methods and Artistic Methods to follow across the range of puzzles that start obviously and then fade away. Sometimes in the image there are iconic images, but perhaps it fades away so far it appears in the verse in some puzzles rather than the image. regardless it is from these associations that we can firmly nail down the cities/image/verse/combinations. Is this what you are saying?

Unknown: obviously you start on the Liberty Island, Take the Ferry to Battery Park go up alongside Central Park and then turn at St Nicholas. Notwithstanding that there is nothing obvious about it, then what? You've taken me (and everyone else) to Central Park.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Notwithstanding that there is nothing obvious about it, then what? You've taken me (and everyone else) to Central Park. No I certainly did not, I said beside central park, in no way did I say in. is this a match? no it is not. The clues do not lead you to central park.

Unknown: I said beside central park, in no way did I say in. Neither did I Matt. I said "to". So now that we have established where we are (adjacent to but not in CP), and we are supposed to turn, which way do we go? I remember, but since this is the "Spill Thread", you should spill. By the way, this discussion gets to the heart of Step 3 (finding the Park), so I'll assume that all your previous questions about Steps 1 and 2 are moot. You are already past that point.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Neither did I Matt. I said "to". So now that we have established where we are (adjacent to but not in CP), and we are supposed to turn, which way do we go? I remember, but since this is the "Spill Thread", you should spill. By the way, this discussion gets to the heart of Step 3 (finding the Park), so I'll assume that all your previous questions about Steps 1 and 2 are moot. You are already past that point. well it is the slow spill... actually I am at St.Nicholas You can go left or right on 97th... LOL I know where I want to get, I just am having trouble getting there. So currently I am Statue of Liberty, Battery Park, St. Nicholas, (Magic happens *poof*) dig site... sadly not a park... but I so want to figure out the Magic. so absolutely not moot.

Unknown: well it is the slow spill... Fair enough. However, here is what you have revealed so far: 1) We are meant to begin our journey at the SoL because... 2) We are meant to travel to something else because... 3) From there, we are meant to go someplace else because... 4) We are meant to end up in a place that isn't even in a park because... 5) And once there, we are meant to dig because... I'm sorry, but that's damn near Josh Cornell territory. There has got to be an easier way or the New York puzzle is unsolvable.

JoshCornell wrote:: i think the nose when flipped upside down is a better match for coit. there is something ghostly in that section you posted, i was asking for a zoom of exactly that before (so thank you) but it doesnt seem to have made anything more clear (oh well...) The shape I outlined (though my top yellow outline is a little vague and wandering) is at roughly the same scale as a number of the hidden buildings in other images. The image files that I'm using are the ones I think most people are using, the hi-res scans, so you should be able to zoom in on them yourself. I used MS Paint for the image editing.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Fair enough. However, here is what you have revealed so far: 1) We are meant to begin our journey at the SoL because... 2) We are meant to travel to something else because... 3) From there, we are meant to go someplace else because... 4) We are meant to end up in a place that isn't even in a park because... 5) And once there, we are meant to dig because... I'm sorry, but that's damn near Josh Cornell territory. There has got to be an easier way or the New York puzzle is unsolvable. I actually said, hmmm based on how Chicago,Cleveland work and how Charleston, St Augustine and San Francisco, Possibly New Orleans, & Milwaukee seem to work, It looks to me like you start at SOL because it is in the image like, the water tower, the transit building, and Fort Sumter, The Castillo, Golden Gate Park, Louis Armstrong, and City Hall In 1981 the SOL ferry only went to Battery Park (no other stops) Then there is 10 ways out of Battery Park (well more if you count subways) but then the next identifiable marker is St. Nicholas's Church on 97th between 5th and Madison. So a very logical continuation, and reason to be here. This is where I am trying to apply the ideas you are putting forth to seeing if I can go forward. You are correct there is no point in speculating further until I get past this spot... If you can make this easier please do.

Unknown: If you can make this easier please do. I could tell you that I think you are making mistake after mistake after mistake in an effort to reverse-engineer the puzzle so that you can justify a dig spot. In essence, going from the hardest thing to figure out (Step 5-Dig Spot) to the easiest thing (Step 1-City). But that's just an argument waiting to happen, so I'll pass. I'll repeat, this is the Spill Thread. So instead of saying "like Chicago, et. al.", perhaps you can show exactly how Chicago works, and then apply those same principles to five other puzzles in exactly the same manner. Then we would have something to talk about. All of us.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I could tell you that I think you are making mistake after mistake after mistake in an effort to reverse-engineer the puzzle so that you can justify a dig spot. In essence, going from the hardest thing to figure out (Step 5-Dig Spot) to the easiest thing (Step 1-City). But that's just an argument waiting to happen, so I'll pass. I'll repeat, this is the Spill Thread. So instead of saying "like Chicago, et. al.", perhaps you can show exactly how Chicago works, and then apply those same principles to five other puzzles in exactly the same manner. Then we would have something to talk about. All of us. My Iconic Image theory hasn't changed, there is a whole thread about it. I don't want to argue about any particular dig spot. I want to apply the knowledge you seem to be slowly spilling to my iconic image theory in order to improve it. one of the biggest drawbacks of my theory is not every picture has an iconic image. from what I am gathering about your ideas, that makes sense then. as they get difficult the methods would become harder to do and then stop altogether? correct me if I am wrong.

Unknown: I want to apply the knowledge you seem to be slowly spilling to my iconic image theory in order to improve it Don't try to improve it, or modify it, or anything else to it besides taking it out to the woodshed and killing it with an ax. It does not work with any consistency and believe me, I've tried. And it leads to seriously flawed thinking, like assuming the map of GGP is not a map that works like all the other maps, but an iconic starting point for a path to another park altogether. But, that's my opinion and I'm willing to be proven wrong. But first, I need to know what I am arguing against and you seem unwilling to make even the most basic argument in defense of your current theory. Four21 has had some serious success with this thread, at least as far as getting people interested. Perhaps you should start fresh, and start a new one of your own. Put the theory out there again for everyone to review and see what comes of it. Just a thought.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Don't try to improve it, or modify it, or anything else to it besides taking it out to the woodshed and killing it with an ax. It does not work with any consistency and believe me, I've tried. And it leads to seriously flawed thinking, like assuming the map of GGP is not a map that works like all the other maps, but an iconic starting point for a path to another park altogether. But, that's my opinion and I'm willing to be proven wrong. But first, I need to know what I am arguing against and you seem unwilling to make even the most basic argument in defense of your current theory. Four21 has had some serious success with this thread, at least as far as getting people interested. Perhaps you should start fresh, and start a new one of your own. Put the theory out there again for everyone to review and see what comes of it. Just a thought. Great idea! I will do just that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Fair enough. However, here is what you have revealed so far: 1) We are meant to begin our journey at the SoL because... 2) We are meant to travel to something else because... 3) From there, we are meant to go someplace else because... 4) We are meant to end up in a place that isn't even in a park because... 5) And once there, we are meant to dig because... I'm sorry, but that's damn near Josh Cornell territory. There has got to be an easier way or the New York puzzle is unsolvable. gray peak man

Unknown: gray peak man Yeah, I get it Josh. 1)We are meant to start our search at Gray Peak because... 2)From there, we are led to another place because... 3)We repeat Step 2 an indeterminate amount of times because... 4) Eventually we end up in Fort Hamilton, or Fort Hamilton High School, or The Hamilton Quicky Mart because... 5) And then we dig. Somewhere. Because. As I used to tell Erexere (no offense intended E), who used a similar methodology for a while, the puzzle can not depend on highly subjective connections that only one person at a time can see. If everyone can't see what you are trying to show, then what you are trying to show is most likely wrong. This thread is about showing people things that everyone, including kids in Boise Idaho, could have seen initially. Unfortunately for that kid, eventually the puzzle gets granular and only kids in certain places (or who would have been willing to travel there) would have been able to solve for X. And while this is no longer true today, it isn't entirely false either. But we are getting way ahead of ourselves.

I never understood the fixation on Hamilton high. One random wiki commenter said byron went to school there, so all of the sudden its his simple roots? Can we drop it now that we know he didnt go to school there?

Also, thank you 421 and ren for opening this conversation and sharing your ideas. It's really helping me understand the method behind the ideas of some vocal people... who without knowing the method they are using, just sound kind of crazy. I'm curious, now that we can apply a work of art to the painting and find a city, we can use either something in the verse that calls out something in the painting to match a verse to a painting, or use a line from lit to match a verse to a city. But where do we go from there? What is step 3? Comminities between the two that form a pattern? Why include the lat long, maps, and rebus if the point is to have us find these matches?

If we are to use paintings to identify a city what is the use of the lat and long coordinates in each image?

Unknown: Also, thank you 421 and ren for opening this conversation and sharing your ideas. The ideas, as everyone has to know by now, are communal. However, the idea to share them in this way was all 421's. Whatever his motivations, the results speak for themselves. Four21 answers the questions, by agreement, but since this information is already out there, Step 3 is using the methodology(s) we find in Steps 1 and 2 to isolate the Park. Quite simply, there is a way(s) to KNOW we have the correct City (Step 1) and there is a way to KNOW we have the correct Image/Verse/City connection for almost all of the puzzles.* So, it follows that there should be a way to KNOW which Park we should be looking in for the Treasure Ground (Step 4) and within that, the dig spot (Step 5). And that none of that information, with the possible exception of Step 5, is subjective. *I will allow that since this is a progressive puzzle, we may not be able to KNOW the last few combinations until we get further along with the easier puzzles, by design. Which ones are these you ask? Well, as I said, 421 answers the questions but I would say that they are the ones that we still argue about. So this might be a case where you don't need me, or 421 at all. Which is really the whole point of this thread. To get everyone involved again.

Unknown: what is the use of the lat and long coordinates in each image? C'mon people. Time to get involved. Surely someone here can answer this question besides me and 421.

jayheedan1 wrote:: If we are to use paintings to identify a city what is the use of the lat and long coordinates in each image? I think there are different sets of city confirmers used in each image -- not every image will have the same set. You can find the co-ordinates (except for Milwaukee), or spot an iconic piece of architecture (except for New Orleans and perhaps Houston and Boston), or spot a map image of a state (FL, Ohio). My examples aren't meant to be exhaustive here.

burnstyle wrote:: ...now that we can apply a work of art to the painting and find a city... Wait, what...? So, there's that St Augustine picture; if it's being suggested that it's a match, or a clue, then I don't buy it. There's a slight resemblance of pose, but I could find a similar match for anyone from Greta Garbo to Mickey Mouse. Was there something else?

probably a better match

Mickey Mouse? Where?

Kalessin wrote:: I think there are different sets of city confirmers used in each image -- not every image will have the same set. You can find the co-ordinates (except for Milwaukee), or spot an iconic piece of architecture (except for New Orleans and perhaps Houston and Boston), or spot a map image of a state (FL, Ohio). My examples aren't meant to be exhaustive here. So we have a map, or coordinates and or iconic structures pointing to a city but “fairy secrets come in two” so the painting/city pairing must be redundant or something imagined?

maltedfalcon wrote:: probably a better match ...yes, and quite possibly a reference, but the picture is just called "Spanish Conquistador". I don't see how you're going to look at the image and think of that painting and go straight to St Augustine. Sorry if I've missed the point, but most of the posts in this thread are so gnomic that it's hard to know what the point is. I still have no idea where Ary Scheffer comes into it, and I think we're a long way from establishing that each image links to a city directly via a work of art.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Wait, what...? So, there's that St Augustine picture; if it's being suggested that it's a match, or a clue, then I don't buy it. There's a slight resemblance of pose, but I could find a similar match for anyone from Greta Garbo to Mickey Mouse. Was there something else? Honestly, I'm not sold on this method, I think the matches to the park in the verse, the map in the image, and the lat and long stand on their own and don't need anything else. I'm going with the theory and conceding that point because I'm curious how this method works over all the puzzles and how connections are being made. It's interesting, whether it is correct or not.

at rabbit it also used to look like the bay around foy, when you consider there has been hurricanes and sea level rise.

burnstyle wrote:: It's interesting, whether it is correct or not. Aha, fair enough.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: C'mon people. Time to get involved. Surely someone here can answer this question besides me and 421. LOL! Nice! I like this one, thumbs up for Erpobdelliforme. Instead of saying you don't know, you actually did the opposite, and yet nobody could proof you wrong because you basically said nothing! Brilliant!!!

Unknown: I think the matches to the park in the verse No wonder you are not sold. You are still trying to use the clues meant for Steps 1 and 2 to solve Step 3. The verse leads you in and out of Lake Park, where we have found...nothing. The verse leads you to FoY Park, where we have found...nothing (well,except an irate owner). The verse leads you to the overlook in Fort Raleigh, where we have found...nothing. The verse leads you to the Children's Zoo in Houston, where we found...nothing. Not even confirmation that we had found the correct park from BP. It only gets less reliable from there. As a matter of fact, the only place where the verse seems to work is in Chicago, since the Cleveland verse just leads you around the park, not to it. Just a thought, but it might be time to kill this theory with an ax as well.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: ...yes, and quite possibly a reference, but the picture is just called "Spanish Conquistador". I don't see how you're going to look at the image and think of that painting and go straight to St Augustine. . Because at the time of the construction of the puzzles and for the decade before, Florida and St Augustine in particular had been pushing the spanish historical narrative as part of a massive drive to attract tourists Images like this appeared in Time, newsweek, Life and National Geographic, not to mention Disney shows on TV All designed to attract people to come visit. All advertising for the Castillo and st Augustine included many images like this.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Just a thought, but it might be time to kill this theory with an ax as well. Which will probably be true as soon as the new alternate theory produces a better result.

Unknown: Instead of saying you don't know, you actually did the opposite Let me be clear then: 1) Four21 answers the questions. 2) The above does not mean that I can't answer the questions, just that I probably won't. 3) Both 421 and I know the answer to the question asked (which is why I said "besides"). 4) It is my opinion that others on here (and "at large") can answer it as well. If I am wrong about that, see #1. 5) You use a lot of exclamation points, when none are really warranted. Hope that helps.

Unknown: Which will probably be true as soon as the new alternate theory produces a better result. Once again, confusing Step 5 with the others. At least you are consistent Matt. Let me ask you a question. Imagine for a minute that you are brand new to the puzzle, and the only thing you have, besides the book, are the two articles about how the casques was found in Cleveland and Chicago. What is the singular, most important take away you would have about finding them?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: C'mon people. Time to get involved. Surely someone here can answer this question besides me and 421. 6) There is no six 7) *points at fox* hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1081#p11966

At the risk of getting blasted by the Yodas on the forum, if Fairy Secrets come in twos, why can't a particular symbol, image, number mean 2 things to the puzzle? For example, maybe 74 isn't just the longitude for NY but, perhaps, another confirmer? Perhaps that church looks like St. Nicholas church but it confirms something else having to do with St. Nicholas?

Unknown: 7) *points at fox* Fair enough. Credit where credit is due. Thank you Fox. So, while I am making lists, here's another one: 1) New Orleans 2) Cleveland 3) San Francisco 4) Houston 5) Chicago 6) Charleston 7) Roanoke 8) Boston 9) Saint Augustine 10) New York 11) Montreal 12) Milwaukee Order is important, although not absolute. Thoughts?

I personally think this is a better match for St Augustin. Using a Spanish Conquistador, palm tree and a map.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Fair enough. Credit where credit is due. Thank you Fox. So, while I am making lists, here's another one: 1) New Orleans 2) Cleveland 3) San Francisco 4) Houston 5) Chicago 6) Charleston 7) Roanoke 8) Boston 9) Saint Augustine 10) New York 11) Montreal 12) Milwaukee Order is important, although not absolute. Thoughts? Well....I wasn't just trying to give fox credit....I was pointing out, that just like the logical (?) pairings, the lat / lon connection has been around for a long, long time. As far as the order...not necessarily the order you presented, I see a progression from Montreal, down the Eastern Seaboard, across the Gulf to NOLA and Houston. Then, jumping to 3 spots close too JJP's home. Followed by a single spot in the West coast.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Because at the time of the construction of the puzzles and for the decade before, Florida and St Augustine in particular had been pushing the spanish historical narrative as part of a massive drive to attract tourists...Images like this appeared in Time, newsweek, Life and National Geographic, not to mention Disney shows on TV All designed to attract people to come visit...All advertising for the Castillo and st Augustine included many images like this. OK, but hang on; isn't it a bit like looking at a picture of a horse, and saying, "aha, George Stubbs painted a horse. I think this is a clue for...horses!" I can imagine that JJP might have picked up pictures of Spanish Conquistadors as reference images. But I can't see how knowledge of that particular image is useful to solve the puzzle. (I'm not saying you necessarily think it is.) *edit* OK, I can imagine a Universe in which someone looks at that figure on horseback and thinks, "Hang on, that looks familiar - oh yeah, it's that picture by Remington, what's it called - Spanish Conquistador ...now, they appear in promotional material for St Augustine; I guess that's where the casque is." But it's a very distant Universe; it's several dimensions away from the one I inhabit. This isn't a dig at you MF; just trying to understand the theory behind this thread.

Unknown: if Fairy Secrets come in twos, why can't a particular symbol, image, number mean 2 things to the puzzle? Who says it can't? As long as those two things don't contradict each other within the established methodology (which the Board Yodas are still trying to noodle out), my sense is that in many cases, they probably do. But there is always going to be a primary purpose for any clue set, IMO. For example, a map can indicate the presence of a casque (IN Ohio, IN Florida, etc.), or it can serve as an iconic starting point for the journey (begin in Charleston, but go to Sullivan's Island). But in order for the puzzle to be truly objective, it can't do both.

Unknown: Well....I wasn't just trying to give fox credit....I was pointing out, that just like the logical (?) pairings, the lat / lon connection has been around for a long, long time. Duly noted. But as I said EZ, credit where credit is due. And Fox deserves all the credit here. As to your second point, most of the information being presented has been around for a long time. What's happening now is an attempt to take this information and look at it in a new ways. Because the old ways clearly have limitations.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Once again, confusing Step 5 with the others. At least you are consistent Matt. Let me ask you a question. Imagine for a minute that you are brand new to the puzzle, and the only thing you have, besides the book, are the two articles about how the casques was found in Cleveland and Chicago. What is the singular, most important take away you would have about finding them? Ah! Thank you for asking! I would take away this...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: OK, but hang on; isn't it a bit like looking at a picture of a horse, and saying, "aha, George Stubbs painted a horse. I think this is a clue for...horses!" I can imagine that JJP might have picked up pictures of Spanish Conquistadors as reference images. But I can't see how knowledge of that particular image is useful to solve the puzzle. (I'm not saying you necessarily think it is. OK, I can imagine a Universe in which someone looks at that figure on horseback and thinks, "Hang on, that looks familiar - oh yeah, it's that picture by Remington, what's it called - Spanish Conquistador ...now, they appear in promotional material for St Augustine; I guess that's where the casque is." But it's a very distant Universe; it's several dimensions away from the one I inhabit. This isn't a dig at you MF; just trying to understand the theory behind this thread. no worries! yes but it wasn't just isolated to the remington. you have to look at it in perspective- more like this...

Unknown: Ah! Thank you for asking! I would take away this... Um, you (Maltedfalcon) might, but the normal reader probably wouldn't. Neither the Terminal Tower nor the Water Tower factored significantly into the original finds. They are just artifacts (your word, not mine) of the puzzle's construction. In both cases, the actual hunt pretty much started AT the park. BTW, how's that new thread coming along? Looks like you're off to a good start.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Um, you (Maltedfalcon) might, but the normal reader probably wouldn't. Neither the Terminal Tower nor the Water Tower factored significantly into the original finds. They are just artifacts (your word, not mine) of the puzzle's construction. In both cases, the actual hunt pretty much started AT the park. BTW, how's that new thread coming along? Looks like you're off to a good start. you didnt ask about the orignal hunt you asked what a new reader would take away now. and all of this info is out there now. Excellent, thank you for asking , working on assembling it all, there is a lot please be patient. BTW I never said thread.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Neither the Terminal Tower nor the Water Tower factored significantly into the original finds. They are just artifacts (your word, not mine) of the puzzle's construction. '' Also beg to differ, is the water tower or the terminal tower, something that JJP used to inspire the painting, or are they included as actual clues in the hunt this is the question. Is the fact that Chicago's image is based on Grant on the $50 a clue? it was grant park after all, or is it just a guideline for the painter. certainly nobody put together the grant connection before the casque was found, but certainly a chicago native recognized the water tower as a chicago indicator.

Unknown: you asked what a new reader would take away Here is the set-up: "Imagine for a minute that you are brand new to the puzzle, and the only thing you have, besides the book, are the two articles about how the casques was found in Cleveland and Chicago." And here is the question: "What is the singular, most important take away you would have about finding them?" You are entitled to your own opinion, but mine is that there is no way that a new reader, armed with only those two articles is going to come up with anything close to your "Iconic to Park" theory. What they are going to conclude I would hope, is that even if you KNOW you are in the right place, and even if you KNOW that you have all the clues, and even if you have BP assisting you, the casque is still a pain in the backside to dig up. So much so that lack of progress on Step 5, especially in 2018, counts for almost nothing IMO.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Here is the set-up: "Imagine for a minute that you are brand new to the puzzle, and the only thing you have, besides the book, are the two articles about how the casques was found in Cleveland and Chicago." And here is the question: "What is the singular, most important take away you would have about finding them?" You are entitled to your own opinion, but mine is that there is no way that a new reader, armed with only those two articles is going to come up with anything close to your "Iconic to Park" theory. What they are going to conclude I would hope, is that even if you KNOW you are in the right place, and even if you KNOW that you have all the clues, and even if you have BP assisting you, the casque is still a pain in the backside to dig up. So much so that lack of progress on Step 5, especially in 2018, counts for almost nothing IMO. 1st 'cause I keep having to scroll up and down could you repost your list of steps? 2nd There is a huge number of people brand new to the puzzle, and I am constantly flabbergasted (10pts - word use) by how fast they work through the puzzles coming up with "original" theories (even though other people were there before ) analyzing them, discarding them and moving forward. It's like watching the last 20 years in fast forward. I seriously expect them to soon blast past where we are now and start digging up casques. 3rd yes it is a pain in the ass to finally & specifically locate. - so instead of just a shovel, we will need to be able to apply things like ground probes, GPR, Sonar, EMI, EMS, boroscopes and other remote sensing tools to help locate them, it is the 21st century after all.

If I were new to the hunt and only had the two articles and the picture and verse (book? Or are you suggesting there are clues in the rest of the text?) I would surmise that the picture identified a city and gave visual confirmers that I was in the right track. The verse was the path guide to find the visual clues and eventually the casque.

karleen wrote:: At the risk of getting blasted by the Yodas on the forum, if Fairy Secrets come in twos, why can't a particular symbol, image, number mean 2 things to the puzzle? For example, maybe 74 isn't just the longitude for NY but, perhaps, another confirmer? Perhaps that church looks like St. Nicholas church but it confirms something else having to do with St. Nicholas? let's say 2 is what we wanted to achieve, using X as unknown variable, in this case: the confirmer 1X+1X=2 , 1+1≠X understand?

Spiritr wrote:: let's say 2 is what we wanted to achieve, using X as unknown variable, in this case: the confirmer 1X+1X=2 , 1+1≠X understand? I think this is essentially what I was saying but it seemed to me that people were applying the "comes in twos" idea to two different puzzle images.

No, I think most people just apply it as "1 Picture + 1 Verse = 2" What most people didn't realized or ignored was 12÷12=1, but this "1", should come in 2s, in this term: X², or 2 X/X

Spiritr wrote:: No, I think most people just apply it as "1 Picture + 1 Verse = 2 Its split about 50/50

jayheedan1 wrote:: If we are to use paintings to identify a city what is the use of the lat and long coordinates in each image? Kalessin wrote:: I think there are different sets of city confirmers used in each image -- not every image will have the same set. Kalessin wrote:: You can find the co-ordinates (except for Milwaukee), or spot an iconic piece of architecture (except for New Orleans and perhaps Houston and Boston), or spot a map image of a state (FL, Ohio). This is a fundamental question, and one of the best. The coordinates are used are to help you figure out the city. Like other clues, once you notice them, they seem to appear in every image (except milwaukee). The problem is, like other clues (think buildings), the numbers get tentative pretty quickly. Soon, we don't really know how to interpret them... are they even numbers? You start ending up in St. Louis. vancouver. Then, you get to image 10 with no coordinates at all. What do you do when you aren't sure anymore? Do you think BP wanted us to just start digging random holes? What if you only thought you were following the coordinates, but they could drift away and you wouldn't be lost as long as you had figured out what you were really following? This is surely not to say that the coordinates are not helpful, just that that are not able to be used in a deterministic manner until you know what you are looking for. For example, once you knew you were looking for port cities, a shit ton of possible coordinate combinations were eliminated for the vague coordinates. When chicago and then cleveland was solved, people might logically start looking in cities that start with the letter C. What if charleston then popped? Would they be right? What if everyone gave up on finding any other way to solve the puzzle, calling it E territory when someone said, "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't just be looking for C cities. Maybe we are doing something in a way we think we are supposed to, but the real reason we are going there is more hidden? Maybe we aren't supposed to be going A to B to C to Dig." Could the more apparent clues drift away and you still know what you are doing? Could BP and JPP start to betray you with their words and images, or make them so arguable in interpretation and connection, and still expect you to find the casque? Think cleveland, then think montreal. Has not everything meaningful disappeared by that point? What if BP no longer had to tell you where to dig, and JJP no longer had to show you? Would BP tell you if you had gotten all the clues on puzzle #1 or #2 that was solvable? We know he wouldn't. In fact, he lied to Brian. Back to a point about the coordinates... once you know you are supposed to not just be using them, but going to port cities, you job is much less. This is the same with the images and verses, once you know what you are looking for in each of them, pairing them is easy. However, as seen, the coordinates are not deterministic... Something else allowed you to be sure, and BP never told you what it was. Just because there is a NA column in Houston or a Preservation in NO, do these clues confirm you are in the right city? What does? If something needs to be confirmed, it is not fact. A confirmer then is only additional evidence. One thing does not confirm the other, they are both just pieces of evidence. There is plenty of evidence in many pictures, and in many verses. Building a preponderance of evidence, i think, is what people mean when they say "confirmer." Evidence is useless when you need to dig a precise 8-inch hole in North America. What you are seeing is multiple types of clues that initially can be used, but eventually disappear, and you are unable to continue with any certainty. Pieces of the images and verses become so vague, they become meaningless, so much so that you can be in one city or another and the clues still make sense. Fairy secrets come in twos. One of the clues Erpobdelliforme shared with [NO NAME], and that [NO NAME] may have talked about on Renner's podcast, was a theory about the moons. See the first image with it's 11 moons - 5 on each side of one big one. The five on each side can be paired in progressively smaller pairs, and there is one unpaired BIG one in the middle. The BIG one = it can be done, it is what it is. The progressively smaller pairs = things are disappearing, becoming less whole. The 12th is nowhere to be found. Think of the jewels. circles... from precise to blob... a half circle. squares... from perfect to blob... a diamond. Think of the count. clocks... progressively less clear the time. spheres... progressively less a sphere. Think of the flowers. Stems... No stems... Think of the images. Men... Women... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JHH6iwgIek

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Wait, what...? So, there's that St Augustine picture; if it's being suggested that it's a match, or a clue, then I don't buy it. There's a slight resemblance of pose, but I could find a similar match for anyone from Greta Garbo to Mickey Mouse. Was there something else? It's a backdrop for the rest of image, manipulated with things imposed onto it. The city on the shoulders was a backdrop, things imposed onto it. The virgin of the rocks was a back drop, with things imposed onto it. The forest city is a backdrop, things imposed onto it. Persepolis is a backdrop, things imposed onto it. Pandora is a backdrop, things imposed onto it. Monica is the backdrop, with things imposed onto it. When you see the backdrop, it is what is is. Finding the backdrop is made manageable once you know what you are looking for.

Fenix wrote:: This is so true. man, if you have ALL the clues (beyond the treasure hunt...you are a God King...lol)

image ten does have coordinates though, they are in the ground. the 44 is extremely visible to the left of JJP's initials...

i can tell you with absolute certainty that preiss wanted us to map the puzzles out before making any attempts to dig.

JoshCornell wrote:: image ten does have coordinates though, they are in the ground. the 44 is extremely visible to the left of JJP's initials... I might argue that you can see anything you want to in the brown lines that make up the ground. Remember that BP published the images in a trade paperback size, but in 2018 we're able to use high-res scans (technology that was in its expensive infancy in 1982) and zoom in at will. When published, as editor and designer, he must have felt that the images as they appeared were sufficient to find the treasures. (If he didn't feel that way, he probably would have published a larger-sized folio of the artworks for an additional eight bucks, available by mail-order.)

or...you're missing something...

Congratulations. The first person to read this will be this thread's 3,000th view. As I said when we hit 2K, that's a lot of views for this little community. Maybe someone is obsessing over it.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Congratulations. The first person to read this will be this thread's 3,000th view. As I said when we hit 2K, that's a lot of views for this little community. Maybe someone is obsessing over it. I think it's more that this conversation progresses rather than people treating each other like crap, so thanks for that. I think Yoda Forum would be a great band name.

JoshCornell wrote:: image ten does have coordinates though, they are in the ground. the 44 is extremely visible to the left of JJP's initials... I see a cross in a box there, not "44"....

*smacks head* a cross in a square makes a 44 you know, so you are seeing the correct thing, you just arent looking at it right lol.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Congratulations. The first person to read this will be this thread's 3,000th view. As I said when we hit 2K, that's a lot of views for this little community. Maybe someone is obsessing over it. or someone just turned on a bot to notify them when the thread changes.

JoshCornell wrote:: *smacks head* a cross in a square makes a 44 you know, so you are seeing the correct thing, you just arent looking at it right lol. I have no idea what those lines are regardless whatever it is, Josh got you down cold on this one, hahahah

Unknown: or someone just turned on a bot to notify them when the thread changes. Wouldn't that be the very definition of "obsessive'?

JoshCornell wrote:: *smacks head* a cross in a square makes a 44 you know, so you are seeing the correct thing, you just arent looking at it right lol. No, it doesn't. And, yes I am. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Am I now in.....'peril'...?

Spiritr wrote:: I have no idea what those lines are regardless whatever it is, Josh got you down cold on this one, hahahah Translating this and every single post you've made so far; "Hurrrrr. Derp!"

Fairy secrets come in twos. Here is a sovereign people who build palaces to shelter their heads for a night! Edwin and Edwina named after him. Lat Long

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Fairy secrets come in twos. Lat Long In a rectangular plot...

Seems to be a bit cherry picking going on. That line in verse four was for the rectangular planter box seen in image four at the Greek gardens where the casque was actually buried in. Seems like your implying that the coordinate bounding box was only for Chicago and Cleveland. Or that maybe these “two” have some sort of relation. Almost every image has a lat/long bounding box, care to elaborate?

BINGO wrote:: IRAN This isn’t even a painting or drawing. I searched for a painting with desert columns, columns, iran, araby etc. couldn’t come up with anything. Did I misunderstand that each picture was based off a painting? Or can it be any anything will work?

jayheedan1 wrote:: Seems to be a bit cherry picking going on. Unknown: That line in verse four was for the rectangular planter box seen in image four at the Greek gardens where the casque was actually buried in. Unknown: Seems like your implying that the coordinate bounding box was only for Chicago and Cleveland. Unknown: Or that maybe these “two” have some sort of relation. Unknown: Almost every image has a lat/long bounding box, care to elaborate? I just posted a picture. You are correct. I only showed you chicago and cleveland. No, they CLEARLY have "some sort of" relation. No need... you just elaborated yourself.

jayheedan1 wrote:: Hall of 100 columns. IRAN img This isn’t even a painting or drawing. I searched for a painting with desert columns, columns, iran, araby etc. couldn’t come up with anything. Unknown: Did I misunderstand that each picture was based off a painting? Or can it be any anything will work? You mean Persepolis ? Are you implying that the location isn't the basis for the background of the image? You sort of misunderstood. The basis of the image is evident once discovered, and it becomes very important. Is it important in cleveland and chicago, no. Does it become more necessary?

WhiteRabbit wrote:: OK, I can imagine a Universe in which someone looks at that figure on horseback and thinks, "Hang on, that looks familiar - oh yeah, it's that picture by Remington, what's it called - Spanish Conquistador ...now, they appear in promotional material for St Augustine; I guess that's where the casque is." This isn't a dig at you MF; just trying to understand the theory behind this thread. Share the clues. Goodness first.

jayheedan1 wrote:: This isn’t even a painting or drawing. I searched for a painting with desert columns, columns, iran, araby etc. couldn’t come up with anything. Did I misunderstand that each picture was based off a painting? Or can it be any anything will work? You can't search with just keywords, what if the name of the painting is not in english? or what if the original painting doesn't have these columns or desert but JJP replicated it to this theme. But you are def looking at the right direction, Arts, I'm with you on this one.

Search engines translate into English or whatever language the searcher is using. Again I thought keywords were the whole point, ie nickname of each city, painting of St Augustine and his mother etc...

jayheedan1 wrote:: Search engines translate into English or whatever language the searcher is using. Again I thought keywords were the whole point, ie nickname of each city, painting of St Augustine and his mother etc... what keyword would you use for that Selfie with Beret & Turned-Up Collar?

Spiritr wrote:: what keyword would you use for that Selfie with Beret & Turned-Up Collar? Hahahaha and here I thought you were being serious. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Po ... -Up_Collar

huh? of course I know what that one is, but I'm saying if you don't know, what keyword would you use based on image9, like...man crossing fingers? man with big nose?

I googled the string: Dutch portrait man hat painting” and it came up

really.....then maybe my google is different, because i don't see it, but anyway, you get the idea, which I think is correct

jayheedan1 wrote:: Did I misunderstand that each picture was based off a painting? Or can it be any anything will work? Florida is based off a drawing

What if we were not supposed to go so far down the rabbit hole? Maybe we should be "under thinking it"? Regards, Mac

Unknown: What if we were not supposed to go so far down the rabbit hole? Maybe we should be "under thinking it"? Respectfully, there is at least one more option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KndSVsY5HWM

I get the thought process, but wondering if opening pandoras box has lead us too deep and past what we should be seeing vs. seeing what inspired their creativity? Just my two pennies... Regards, Mac

For example... what if one was able to determine a park by researching clues within it and match them to an image and from there determine a dig spot. Just trying to look at things from different perspectives, thought processes and angles. Regards, Mac

That is where I have been headed. Too many shoe horned theories. Too much denial against things that could be true. Stop me if I am not understanding fully, but I understand this to be more about throwing away a lot of information and looking at things differently than have in the past. A new way of seeing. Regards, Mac

Unknown: what if one was able to determine a park by researching clues within it and match them to an image No what if required. This is exactly how they found the casques in Cleveland and Chicago. So it's natural to assume that this is the methodology we are meant to use. The problem is that it does not seem to work too well for some of the other puzzles, and it doesn't work at all for the rest. At least, not with the same certainty we had for the first two. And this is true whether you are talking about the path we take to get to the park, or the visual confirmers we find when we get there. IMO, of course.

NO, if you hold up a casque right now telling me you used a different method I use, I'll say you're full of shit and that's fake. for at least couple weeks, and then I'll say you're not telling the truth about the location and method.

Unknown: if you hold up a casque right now telling me you used a different method Once again, confusing Step 5 with Step 3. At least you guys are consistent.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: No what if required. This is exactly how they found the casques in Cleveland and Chicago. So it's natural to assume that this is the methodology we are meant to use. The problem is that it does not seem to work too well for some of the other puzzles, and it doesn't work at all for the rest. At least, not with the same certainty we had for the first two. And this is true whether you are talking about the path we take to get to the park, or the visual confirmers we find when we get there. IMO, of course. Agreed. I was attempting to look at a puzzle differently than I had been. On a very simple level that was succesful on the 2 that came up. With that said I have only been looking at 1 puzzle. Maybe I will just lurk this thread as I dont seem to understand what is trying to be accomplished. Probably from my lack of time and knowledge of the other puzzles. Regards, Mac

Unknown: fish "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Don't teach a man to fish, and feed yourself. He's a grown man. And fishing's not that hard." Ron Swanson

Unknown: go fishing when you can't find the fairy secrets.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Don't teach a man to fish, and feed yourself. He's a grown man. And fishing's not that hard." Ron Swanson “Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.” - Terry Pratchett

Fenix wrote:: Do you have any 2's? Do you have any hands? A couple. But so do all men, and woman. They use left ones to get married. Some statues and paintings have hands. They can all be open and closed, and be used to show motion... like a 12 step process of going from clasped to opening arms to arms extended. Rodin has a sweet display at Legion in SF of hands... The Secret. Why do you ask?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: In a rectangular plot... The lat/long found in the Chicago painting seem to give you a rectangular grid that surrounds the city. I haven’t been to the actual recovery site, but it doesn’t seem that the casque was found in a rectangular plot. (I very well could be wrong) On the other hand, the Cleveland painting doesn’t give you a clear rectanglular grid from the lat/long. But the casque was clearly recovered in a rectangular plot. Is this the direction you were going with this comparison?

After spending the day slowly working my way through this thread, I am am left wondering, what have I learned that is a new way to approach the puzzles, and the answer is, nothing. This 5 step program is just a way to frame what I’ve been reading and what any other reasonably intelligent person would consider: Start macro, go micro. The easiest puzzles allow us to start micro and search for nano. Hell, a lucky google search led Brian directly to the X. The idea of art and literature as inspiration is surely nothing new. The link of flower/clock/stone is also common knowledge at this point. I’ve never considered the 11 moons as some sort of indicator for the other puzzles. I like this theory and will give it more consideration. I don’t agree with the thought that the jewels become less obvious through the images. They all seem blantent to me. They seem as though they are painted very much like they will look in reality. Type of cut, etc... The flowers do vary by the overall theme of each image. I see this as a painter blending them in with the unique qualities of the painting and not meant as a clue other than to verify match with clock and stone. There are paintings with more than 1 flower, however IMO it is obvious which is The Flower and which is a clue for the location. As I focus mainly on Image 3 Verse 11, I am intriguided by the idea stayed that every Fairy is very intentional. I have not been able to find an image match for this fairy. I don’t understand the ranking list of locations, can you explain your criteria for ranking? The thing that has thrown me the most in this thread is the algebra. I don’t understand how solving for X in any those equations helps whatsoever. This is my first post here in Q4T, my name is Brad and I am happy to entertain ideas, learn, play devils advocate, etc.... in civil discourse. My main goal is to be a part of a team working to further the hunt, which I currently don’t feel this thread has done, at least not to the extent the original authors are claiming they intend it to. So I ask, please help me see what I have have not yet been able to with the information given thus far.

P.s. I should have started that comment with, “Thank you for taking your time to help others by sharing your ideas and helping us seek your understanding by thinking on our own rather than simply laying it all out at once.”

The fairy in image 11 pretty well matches a female figure in an John Singleton Copley painting, "The Red Cross Knight". It's certainly not his most famous painting -- probably the most familiar image to Americans is his portrait of Paul Revere. The painting belongs to the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC. From the chapters at the beginning of "The Secret", the Fair Folk immigration origin for Boston is Italy, and one thought is that fairies from the origin cities are what appear in the images, so in theory it's an Italian fairy. More info here: hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/862 ... mmigration A four-leaf clover appears in one of her wings, which could well be a slightly-disguised symbol for the Boston Celtics NBA basketball team. The Celtics logo at the time, which is still in use) features leprechaun with three-leaf clovers on his vest. Sports logos do appear in some of the other images, for example, in the Chicago image, there's a Bulls logo in a medallion hanging on the side.

You mean jack black revere?

DOOMer77 wrote:: After spending the day slowly working my way through this thread, I am am left wondering, what have I learned that is a new way to approach the puzzles, and the answer is, nothing. This 5 step program is just a way to frame what I’ve been reading and what any other reasonably intelligent person would consider: Start macro, go micro. The easiest puzzles allow us to start micro and search for nano. Hell, a lucky google search led Brian directly to the X. The idea of art and literature as inspiration is surely nothing new. Unfortunately, it appears that the OP(s) have abandoned the thread before they weaved everything together. Personally, I was hoping to learn something new or at least a new way to look at the information that we have. Personality conflicts and long standing grudges seem to have taken precedence over progress.

Unknown: I am am left wondering, what have I learned that is a new way to approach the puzzles, and the answer is, nothing. I know right? And yet some people are still wondering about the commonly accepted City/Verse/Image connections. One possible explanation, as you have noted, is that they are not "reasonably intelligent". Works for me.

Unknown: commonly accepted City/Verse/Image connections you got a very good point here, it's commonly accepted by common people based on guesses, and imaginations. Not intelligence .

Unknown: it's commonly accepted by common people based on guesses, and imaginations. Once a thing becomes common knowledge, people tend to care a lot less about the science behind it. They just accept it and move on with their daily lives. This thread is for the skeptics, knowing full well that no matter how clearly things are laid out, there will always be those that doubt. Either because the truly don't understand, or because it serves some purpose not to understand.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Once a thing becomes common knowledge, people tend to care a lot less about the science behind it. They just accept it and move on with their daily lives. This thread is for the skeptics, knowing full well that no matter how clearly things are laid out, there will always be those that doubt. Either because the truly don't understand, or because it serves some purpose not to understand. yes and no, this thread is not for skeptics, at least not for me. Things were clearly laid out in the way as it was designed. there's no "doubt" about it, no one truly understand the purpose. Yet already made countless assumptions over it, that's how it become commonly accepted, as time goes, when believe become belief, there's no room for discussion anymore.

Spiritr wrote:: yes and no, this thread is not for skeptics, at least not for me. Things were clearly laid out in the way as it was designed. there's no "doubt" about it, no one truly understand the purpose. Yet already made countless assumptions over it, that's how it become commonly accepted, as time goes, when believe become belief, there's no room for discussion anymore. Correct!! The world is, in fact, flat! (Silly, unknowing scientists. Sheesh.) Thanks for enlightening us and throwing down with the naysayers.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I know right? And yet some people are still wondering about the commonly accepted City/Verse/Image connections. One possible explanation, as you have noted, is that they are not "reasonably intelligent". Works for me. Responses such as this lead myself and others to abandon entertaining that the intent of this thread is to help further the hunt. I would like to believe otherwise, but I am finding it difficult. May I ask that, if you aim to assist, that you do so by answering the questions I posed. Also, the group is clearly not ‘picking up what your putting down’. Can you illustrate the idea in a different manner?

DOOMer77: In my opinion, your first and subsequent post(s) were well thought out and presented with intelligence. While I can't speak for 421, it's also my opinion that the original intent of this thread was to show newcomers, who just dive in ignoring previous work, why the commonly accepted City/Verse/Image connections exist. It then started to head towards 'extra' info, with some collaboration, conjecture and debate...which is what has happened here for more than a decade. Still, I'm with you: Hopefully, more of that occurs. If not, I'm okay with it, as it is. *See recent posts , asking if anybody has checked Montreal, WI....either that poster is serious (because the person didn't bother to think it through, ignoring this thread and everything posted about image 9) or that's a new account created by an old poster, trolling for responses.

^+1 anything positive or near truth will be ignored enlightenment usually turns out to be abasement

Unknown: May I ask that, if you aim to assist, that you do so by answering the questions I posed. You only posed one question: "can you explain your criteria for ranking?". I could, but I doubt that will satisfy the group. It will just lead to arguments about the relative importance of one set of clues over another. Or more trolling. Suffice to say that just as it is harder to identify certain cities (for certain), and harder to know which Images go with which Verses (for certain), the same is true for deciding which are the easy puzzles and which are the harder ones. It may seem obvious, but after 35 years of futility, it clearly is not. How hard would Milwaukee have been if there was in fact a big tree at the base of the ravine with a big letter "G" carved into it? How hard would St. Augustine have been if Preiss had, in fact buried the casque at the base of a tall tree in the Fountain of Youth Park? How hard would Roanoke have been if there was something, anything really that fit the description of "last touched or first seen standing" at the overlook? These certainly seem to be some of the easier puzzles, but are they really? With all due respect Doom, we aren't trying to satisfy the group. Or solve the puzzle for them. We are simply trying to get the group to agree that there is a logical and methodical way to solve the first two steps, and therefore there should be a logical and methodical way to solve for Step 3, and beyond. And pointing out that this will be harder for some puzzles than it is for others for reasons that even we still don't understand. I guarantee that some people are already working the problem. That is, some people are, in fact, "picking up what we are putting down".

Okay. Confirmed there is no intention to help further the hunt as previously expected. Thank you.

that's not true either, it really depends on your comprehensive ability.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: ...How hard would Roanoke have been if there was something, anything really that fit the description of "last touched or first seen standing" at the overlook? These certainly seem to be some of the easier puzzles, but are they really? Just a thought The suspected Thomas Hariot trail that leads to the beach (mica/driftwood) is not a dead end at the overlook but the trail is a loop. There are many signs along the trail, because of the way the trail loops it could be one of these trail signs that is at the entrance/exit (first seen / last touched). If the signs were in the 80’s like they are now they look tall enough and wide enough to dig “under.” Or possible something else similar at the entrance/ exit of this trail. https://www.nps.gov/fora/planyourvisit/maps.htm https://mobile.twitter.com/FortRaleighN ... 2016648192

The trail (renamed from Dogwood Trail) seems to have been there since 1960, without modification....not sure about the interpretive signs along the path. https://archive.org/stream/culturallandscap002010/culturallandscap002010_djvu.txt But, it is and has been a National Historic site. Would be like digging at Fort Sumter, Jackson Square or similar park. Here's some info and Maps contained in a Land Protection plan from '83...no plans at that time to alter the trail: Click Here

Unknown: Or possible something else similar at the entrance/ exit of this trail. Or something in or around the Watergate, or even the Elizabethan Garden proper. Or in or around the Waterside Theater. Or in another part of Fort Raleigh entirely. At various points, all these ideas have been discussed and dissected. In many cases several times. There is a very simple and logical way to interpret Verse 11, and it leads us step by step from the Wright Brother's Memorial to the overlook on the Thomas Harriot Trail, where we can "look north at the wing". And where we would have had no problem digging to our heart's content in 1983 if we could only just find the LToFSS. And where people are still digging to this day, hoping to get lucky. If it was there, this is one of the easiest puzzles to solve IMO. But if it's not, and never was, well then, game on.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: There is a very simple and logical way to interpret Verse 11, and it leads us step by step from the Wright Brother's Memorial to the overlook on the Thomas Harriot Trail, where we can "look north at the wing". And where we would have had no problem digging to our heart's content in 1983 if we could only just find the LToFSS. And where people are still digging to this day, hoping to get lucky. If it was there, this is one of the easiest puzzles to solve IMO. But if it's not, and never was, well then, game on. I'm still confused by what steps are which. I went back through the whole thread. and I can't find them listed. would you please just list them 1 1a 1b 2a 2b 3 4 5 What are you saying is each step that needs to be taken. I know one is identify the city and another is identify the verse but which is which and what are the others?

Need help. I have tried several times to upload my images to share however I get a message either too large or forum quota has been met. How can I upload without an issue with this?

use imgur or a photo sharing site. upload your photos there copy the url they supply and post it inside a img element like this [img]PASTEYOURURLINHERE[/img]

Thank you.

I'm new and find the boards confusing. Never heard of The Secret until last Sunday when they showed the NYC search on TV. I was fascinated and posted my take on the New York image and I assume this is the New Orleans Board ?!

Unknown: I'm still confused by what steps are which...would you please just list them Sure Matt. Just keep in mind that there is nothing in the book that indicates how many steps it takes to solve a puzzle. So, this is just a convenient way I use to keep information organized. And I imagine (but obviously can't prove) that Preiss did too. Step 1-Identify the City/Image Connection: A for the easy ones, and B for the harder ones. Step 2-Make the City/Verse Connection: Again, A for the easy ones and B for the harder ones. -You now have a list of cities (with their corresponding Images) and a list of cities (with their corresponding verses). Wed the two and you have one master list of 12 cities, 12 verses, and 12 images. No guesswork or speculation necessary. At this point, you have narrowed the search area (originally 9.4 million square miles) to an aggregate area of about 1,200 square miles, more or less. -Also, most of the work described above could have been done by anyone with access to a decent sized library. So, up to this point, it still can be considered an armchair treasure hunt. Step 3-Identify the Park Step 4-Identify the Treasure Ground Step 5-Identify the Dig Spot -Interestingly, it does not seem like you needed to complete Step 5 to earn the jewel. A specific and detailed description of the Treasure Ground (what Preiss called the site) and how you got there seems like it would have been sufficient to get Preiss' attention. But, it should be abundantly clear that if you want to claim a jewel today, you need to logically and objectively work your way through all five steps. There is simply no other ethical way to solve the puzzle, IMO. Or, you can use Fenix's method:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Step 1-Identify the City/Image Connection: A for the easy ones, and B for the harder ones. Step 2-Make the City/Verse Connection: Again, A for the easy ones and B for the harder ones. -You now have a list of cities (with their corresponding Images) and a list of cities (with their corresponding verses). Wed the two and you have one master list of 12 cities, 12 verses, and 12 images. No guesswork or speculation necessary. At this point, you have narrowed the search area (originally 9.4 million square miles) to an aggregate area of about 1,200 square miles, more or less. -Also, most of the work described above could have been done by anyone with access to a decent sized library. So, up to this point, it still can be considered an armchair treasure hunt. Step 3-Identify the Park Step 4-Identify the Treasure Ground Step 5-Identify the Dig Spot Thanks I seriously could not find them going back through the thread.

Unknown: Thanks I seriously could not find them going back through the thread. You're welcome. I alluded to them on Page 7 of this thread, and you should re-read that post if you truly want to understand what I'm trying to say about the methodology. Hope that helps.

Yve wrote:: I'm new and find the boards confusing. Never heard of The Secret until last Sunday when they showed the NYC search on TV. I was fascinated and posted my take on the New York image and I assume this is the New Orleans Board ?! Welcome to Q4T -- our forum site is for many hunts, so at least you've found the right sub-forum. With "The Secret" section, there are many threads. A long time ago, we had isolated discussions: 12 for the images and 12 for the verses. Over time, ideas merged and discussions became cross-posted, then branched out, then more people joined. We now have several discussions just about the methods and theories, and so you won't find a single place just for your New York location. This thread you are reading now is one of those brainstorming areas, where examples are pulled from all over for analysis and interpretation. If you want to return to basics, you would be siding with the old-timers who are fairly certain that Image 12 and Verse 10 pair up and lead to NYC -- look for the threads with those topic names. However, feel free to dive in anywhere and consider other pairings. Evalute the clues for yourself, and keep in mind how the passage of decades has changed the terrain.

Unknown: However, feel free to dive in anywhere and consider other pairings. Agreed. In addition to NY, there are 11 others ( 2 of which are already solved) from which to choose. You can find those pairings on Page 1 of this thread. Good luck.

Fenix wrote:: Ah shit, I haven't been rick rolled in quite some time! Renovator, I think it works more like Step 1, list off birth stones Step 2, cultural link Step 3, what City has a good connection to step 2 Step 4, find a site thats fitting Step 5, ...

Unknown: I think it works more like That's fine E. You are welcome to classify the information in any manner that you see fit. As long as you are consistent, the results will speak for themselves.

Unknown: strike 13 wrote: why is it slow anyway Cross posted from the image 1 thread. Four21 answered: There is a somewhat tangential strategy involved that prompts it to be slow. The primary strategy of the thread is to release a lot of information, mostly fact, with little-to-no opinion. The tangential strategy is the AKA portion, which involves waiting for opportune times to post it. Erpobdelliforme answered: I'm pretty sure this question was addressed in the thread Strike. But in case it was a casualty of the purge, the short answer is to give people a chance to figure things out for themselves*. It's still a puzzle, isn't it? *Note: I am not now, nor have I ever claimed to have all the answers. And I have retrieved the exact same number of casques as most of the posters on this forum, which is to say the the next one I dig up will be my first. All I am saying is that there has to be an objective, logical way to solve this puzzle, and the next person who can put all the steps together is the person most likely to find Casque #3, or lead someone else directly to it. *Note to White Rabbit: This belongs in the "Slow Spill" thread. And now it is.

Unknown: Bingo wrote: Check out the slow spill thread. It might have something related to Dickens. If not now, maybe later when the time is right. Cross posted from the "Clues in the Book" thread. For this particular clue, the time will be right when someone resolves the clue and decides to share. But I'll bet that the resolution (that almost all of us agree to) will tie Verse 10 to New York in some direct way. Because while the clues may be hard to find, they are not hard to understand once you find them. And by now, we all should have a pretty good idea of how the literary clues work in this puzzle.

Saw the Expedition episode at gym with no sound last night and have spent a good 6-8 hours since reading up through here and the wiki and a few other places on them. Unfortunately none of them are hidden in my state, but we do have a big annual hunt here and I enjoy every few months going and reading through all the old solutions. I'm curious with the amount of tension/bickering going on if the more reasonable folks expect that one or two of the casques (Milwaukee, San Francisco, or New Orleans likely) are going to be found in the next couple months or not. Would be really cool to see some still out there hidden and that they weren't stumbled upon with construction and just tossed aside in the last 35 years.

Unknown: I'm curious with the amount of tension/bickering going on... The tension that you speak of is by design, and has nothing to do with the rest of your question. What goes on in this forum these days has very little to do with the progress being made toward solving one or more of these puzzles, and should in no way be taken as indicative of what is happening elsewhere. For the most part, it's just a few frustrated people trying to make themselves relevant, while doing their level best to make this place irrelevant. Unfortunately for them, they can't erase all the good information contained in these threads. The best they can do is make it harder to find. With regard to your actual question, this thread alone should be proof that the puzzle has a logical and methodical construction, and progress has been made, and continues to be made on figuring out exactly what that is. Which will lead to where these things are, or at the very least, where Preiss buried them 37 years ago. I am on record as saying that of the 10 remaining, at least 6 sites are still more or less intact. And if the casques are still there, we will find them, or evidence of their existence eventually. Or possibly sooner.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: The tension that you speak of is by design, and has nothing to do with the rest of your question. What goes on in this forum these days has very little to do with the progress being made toward solving one or more of these puzzles, and should in no way be taken as indicative of what is happening elsewhere. For the most part, it's just a few frustrated people trying to make themselves relevant, while doing their level best to make this place irrelevant. Unfortunately for them, they can't erase all the good information contained in these threads. The best they can do is make it harder to find. With regard to your actual question, this thread alone should be proof that the puzzle has a logical and methodical construction, and progress has been made, and continues to be made on figuring out exactly what that is. Which will lead to where these things are, or at the very least, where Preiss buried them 37 years ago. I am on record as saying that of the 10 remaining, at least 6 sites are still more or less intact. And if the casques are still there, we will find them, or evidence of their existence eventually. Or possibly sooner. You think the Charleston one was buried under the statue that then backhoe and new slab would have destroyed, or that one still out there?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I am on record as saying that of the 10 remaining, at least 6 sites are still more or less intact. And if the casques are still there, we will find them, or evidence of their existence eventually. Or possibly sooner. I think (and these are merely my speculations, based on where I think things are and how many people are working there.) San Francisco - intact- will be found within the year New York - intact will be found within the year Houston, possibly intact (30% chance) Location will either be confirmed, through parts or is totally unrecoverable. Milwaukee- intact, will be found within the year Boston - no idea Roanoke - no idea St Augustine - small chance it will be located within the year Charleston - pretty good chance it is still intact. Montreal - no idea New Orleans -Not intact. - More research needs to be done.

very probable nola still there charleston gone, roanoke gone, montreal is there, i dont see why it wouldnt be. houston is there but its gonna be hard to locate for sure.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I think (and these are merely my speculations, based on where I think things are and how many people are working there.) San Francisco - intact- will be found within the year New York - intact will be found within the year Houston, possibly intact (30% chance) Location will either be confirmed, through parts or is totally unrecoverable. Milwaukee- intact, will be found within the year Boston - no idea Roanoke - no idea St Augustine - small chance it will be located within the year Charleston - pretty good chance it is still intact. Montreal - no idea New Orleans -Not intact. - More research needs to be done. LOL, you serious???

Spiritr wrote:: LOL, you serious??? Totally - your opinion differs?

I believe someone will find them someday, "Luck" is unexplainable, that's why we have lottery winners and miracles, right? but logically speaking....no, I don't think so.

BUMP Can’t let this fall off the front page. The author(s) have work to finish and promises to keep.

Unknown: The author(s) have work to finish and promises to keep. Yes (we) do. And you'll be happy to know that (we) are hard at work, trying our best to fulfill those promises. Wouldn't want to disappoint our loyal fan(s).

right on point Erpobdelliforme I'm a(translator) btw

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Wait, what...? So, there's that St Augustine picture; if it's being suggested that it's a match, or a clue, then I don't buy it. There's a slight resemblance of pose, but I could find a similar match for anyone from Greta Garbo to Mickey Mouse. Was there something else? Scroll down to the park entrances map - it should be an eye opener. - https://www.nps.gov/ever/planyourvisit/ ... enters.htm

Unknown: it should be an eye opener. Dayum. Five big red arrows. One of them surely points to the correct dig spot. Or alligators...

Unknown: jayheedan1 wrote: If it were such a highly valued thread with all the information more members must be using it; that or it’s pretty useless. I hardly see why you have to push it on every other thread. I’ve bit tongue the last few times you done it but it’s starting to make you look desperate. By your reasoning “everything you need” is in the book there’s no need to look at the slow spill thread. If the solves are all but solved, less the bury site, please post on your coveted thread. Or maybe your channeling Priess and don’t want to give out your solutions because you’ve dug up the casques then reburied them for other to find again? Idk personally it seems like the most purposely misleading thread on the secret board to me. Sorry to rant but it’s past getting old, please I’ll ask you nicely or beg you to leave that thread in that thread. Cross posted from the St. Louis Compilation Thread: Anyone else feel like they are being "purposefully" misled?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Cross posted from the St. Louis Compilation Thread: Anyone else feel like they are being "purposefully" misled? Nope, not me.

If we examine the verses - I believe they are talking about a tree - specifically an Everglades Cypress tree - one of the few trees that can actually grow in standing water. Near men with wind refer's to the air boats that people travel the water ways in the Everglades with - they look like a skiff with a giant fan on the back essentially wind powered - "rose" the tree grew. I know everyone is hooked on the "Wind Rose" navigation device at the FOY. - but that hasn't gotten anyone anywhere in 30 years - it might be time to expand our search horizons. Maybe the Lat/Lon numbers simply designate a state and not a tightly boundary'd box. I think we all need to keep really open minds and spend less time ridiculing and insulting one another - it's a terrible way for adults to treat each other.

Air/"wind" boat - hxxp://seaexcursions.com/everglades/

Goldengate wrote:: That's all well and good, but in every translation of the Japanese book's "hints" section, Preiss himself described it as a marine navigation instrument -- or something to that effect. There is no doubt that the Japanese translation's unique hints hold valid clues directly from BP that had never before been discovered. In some ways, they confirm theories, in others, they challenge long held "settled" beliefs. Definitely worth listening to the special edition of the podcast and I know somebody here actually transcribed that segment. Here is what my translator (the person in Japan who re-discovered this edition) pulled from BP's hints: L4 wind rose He was said that this "wind rose" should be considered in relation to navigation technique. (It is written in the nuance of marine navigation technique in Japanese.) I would think the word "technique" would mean 'a way of doing something' and not refer to a noun/device. Thoughts?

I have listened to the Japanese podcast and I think the navigation technique is negotiating the waterways of the Everglades in a "wind powered boat". Honestly I was not overly impressed with the Japanese translation - it all seemed kind of basic to me - and I think when he translates the verses of the casques that were already found he makes a couple of mistakes - I am pretty sure the Japanese guy said M&B are famous names - we all know they are not.

Unknown: I would think the word "technique" would mean 'a way of doing something' and not refer to a noun/device. Thoughts? I interpreted the japanese hint as something to eliminate the ambiguity of the translation given the multiple English meanings of the word "rose". I.e. he is telling us it isnt a kite, or something like that if we use rose as the past tense of "rise", or some generic interpretation of something that rises with the wind. Given the other direct verse matches, I feel it just solidifies this is specifically the FOY wind rose. Between first chapter, silver, limestone, salt, SELOY, I find it a stretch to think it would be anything else. The Japanese hint seems to lock that down pretty directly.

MERLIN wrote:: I am pretty sure the Japanese guy said M&B are famous names - we all know they are not. What? Seriously? The Japanese hint said they are names of famous composers. Mozart and Beethoven are chiseled in the wall of the Chicago symphony building a stones throw from the treasure ground. Granted the Chicago crew, to my understanding, never caught that clue, interpreted it as "man and beast", and found it as such, but it is now without a doubt Preiss crafted the verse using Mozart and Beethoven as the M and B.

MERLIN wrote:: I am pretty sure the Japanese guy said M&B are famous names - we all know they are not. Here you go. M & B set in stone. I would say Mozart & Beethoven are quite famous. Japanese translation nailed it. Also take note of the shape encircled in green, even down to the "X" going through the center...

The way the Chicago crew used it found the casque - I believe that is what matters.

MERLIN wrote:: The way the Chicago crew used it found the casque - I believe that is what matters. What matters is having as much additional information as possible about Preiss' specific intentions and his method of crafting verses. As I mentioned above, I am well aware the Chicago crew didnt require the intended interpretation of the clue to uncover the cask, but knowing for certain thst Preiss was using Mozart and Beethoven is a good piece of confirming information about this clue, if one was not inclined to believe existing information about Preiss saying it meant Mozart and Beethoven years later.

This is a testament to the power of a rock solid image match. You can completely misread the verse, but the image match keeps you in the right area.

BINGO wrote:: This is a testament to the power of a rock solid image match. You can completely misread the verse, but the image match keeps you in the right area. Exactly. Image verifier and verse meet in one image. Solving The Secret 101...

BINGO wrote:: This is a testament to the power of a rock solid image match. You can completely misread the verse, but the image match keeps you in the right area. So what image match are we looking for in Florida?

Scrappy929 wrote:: Exactly. Image verifier and verse meet in one image. Solving The Secret 101... So are we saying the image of the horse and bowman are completely worthless - irrelevant to the search?

MERLIN wrote:: So are we saying the image of the horse and bowman are completely worthless - irrelevant to the search? I believe the exact opposite is being said.

MERLIN wrote:: So are we saying the image of the horse and bowman are completely worthless - irrelevant to the search? No. It is another example of an image verifier. "And to Congress, R is known." The Bowman is right at the corner of East Congress Parkway before you enter the park.

So again - what "image verifiers" should we be using for Florida"? The last verse mentions tall grass - the Everglades is described as "a sea of grass"

MERLIN wrote:: So again - what "image verifiers" should we be using for Florida"? The last verse mentions tall grass - the Everglades is described as "a sea of grass" I can't speak to image 6 image verifiers. Maybe something can be found in the image 6 thread or may have been mentioned on the podcast. I've been spending a majority of my time on image 1. I am having a hard enough time finding image verifiers for that one. Something someone mentioned recently on a thread is right on point... an image verifier will not look similar... it will be exact. We can usually find many things that look similar. Using both of the solved images, we know that we need exact, and it shouldn't even be questioned when it is found. Good luck on image 6.

Scrappy929 wrote:: I can't speak to image 6 image verifiers. Maybe something can be found in the image 6 thread or may have been mentioned on the podcast. I've been spending a majority of my time on image 1. I am having a hard enough time finding image verifiers for that one. Something someone mentioned recently on a thread is right on point... an image verifier will not look similar... it will be exact. We can usually find many things that look similar. Using both of the solved images, we know that we need exact, and it shouldn't even be questioned when it is found. Good luck on image 6. I like what you've been discussing but I have to wonder about the exactness of what you would see. With the two "easiest" (not my word) casques being found and the more expensive jewel cities having a more difficult puzzle we have no way to know the level "exactness" in the cities where they've not been found.

karleen wrote:: I like what you've been discussing but I have to wonder about the exactness of what you would see. With the two "easiest" (not my word) casques being found and the more expensive jewel cities having a more difficult puzzle we have no way to know the level "exactness" in the cities where they've not been found. Yes. Those 2 seem “easiest” since the image verifiers are very evident. Some of the other puzzles seem to be lacking obvious image verifiers like the 2 solved ones, making them much harder. Or, some of the identifiers we might have been able to confirm, may be lost due to time. Once the next one is solved, we may know more. There definitely seems to be quite the difference between the puzzles... just adding to the overall puzzle.

Behind bending branches and a "formerly" green picket fence - https://i0.wp.com/floridarambler.com/wp ... .jpg?ssl=1

Scrappy929 wrote:: Here you go. M & B set in stone. I would say Mozart & Beethoven are quite famous. Japanese translation nailed it. Also take note of the shape encircled in green, even down to the "X" going through the center... The image match is pretty interesting. The wiki for image 5 has that symbol down as matching to a old removed facade of a building (sullivan center 1 south state street) which is about 5 blocks away from the treasure site, but this is more attractive because it matches the start of the verse (and is still there for us to look at). I always though that (at least for treasure map style verses like Chicago) there should be an image confirmer where you are supposed to start and perhaps at every step along the way, Byrons' way of confirming you are on the right trail. Without the image confirmer its pretty hard to follow successive cryptic verse clues (though verse 12 seems far less cryptic than rest...). And of course, in the case of Chicago they found a mistaken verse+image match to start the trail that works even better than the real one (since the image match is so clear and it gets you right where you need to be). They are both pretty good matches to my eye, but the wiki one is dead on. I wonder which one is correct?

dosethree wrote:: The image match is pretty interesting. The wiki for image 5 has that symbol down as matching to a old removed facade of a building (sullivan center 1 south state street) which is about 5 blocks away from the treasure site, but this is more attractive because it matches the start of the verse (and is still there for us to look at). I always though that (at least for treasure map style verses like Chicago) there should be an image confirmer where you are supposed to start and perhaps at every step along the way, Byrons' way of confirming you are on the right trail. Without the image confirmer its pretty hard to follow successive cryptic verse clues (though verse 12 seems far less cryptic than rest...). And of course, in the case of Chicago they found a mistaken verse+image match to start the trail that works even better than the real one (since the image match is so clear and it gets you right where you need to be). They are both pretty good matches to my eye, but the wiki one is dead on. I wonder which one is correct? The one I posted is correct, and I can say pretty confidently that it is the one intended for the clue. The one shown on the wiki is similar but the one where M & B are set in stone is exact. Notice the "X" going through the center on both the image and the one on the building. The one on the wiki does not have the "X." Not to mention, it is right above M & B... the first line in the verse. This was supposed to be the first clue to let you know that you were on the right path. We know now that, even though the first line was not interpreted correctly, they were still able to make it to the next verse /clue and continue with the solve. I agree with you that we would think that we need an image verifier from where we are supposed to start. Based upon the two solved puzzles, that should be the case. However, it seems that the remaining puzzles might or might not follow that theory. We can conclude though, we may not necessarily have to have all of them... maybe just a couple others that would get us where we need to be. Some of these image identifiers may be quite small as in the case of the above image. We would hope that even if we are missing one or two that may be lost to time, that the other ones in the image remain. Although, the one or two that may be missing could be the ones most needed or even the only ones.

You say it it worked for the two solved ones but did it work for Cleveland? Cleveland didn't didn't really take you on a journey, as it more described the area around the park and then the dig spot, "In between two countries" doesn't have an image match I'm aware of. "As the road curves" might be a match for the curvy tail of the centaur, but it doesn't seem like the same level of image match if that's what you're referring to? Or maybe the "backwards" order of verse 4 is significant and "seek the columns" is the "start" with a sweet image match In the case of Boston (verse 3/image 11) which seems very trailesque we haven't really found a good image match at the suspected starting point of the Boston Public Library (closest is perhaps the Trinity Church for the castle in Pandora's box) though the area hasn't changed much. edit: specifying verse number

dosethree wrote:: You say it it worked for the two solved ones but did it work for Cleveland? Cleveland didn't didn't really take you on a journey, as it more described the area around the park and then the dig spot, "In between two countries" doesn't have an image match I'm aware of. "As the road curves" might be a match for the curvy tail of the centaur, but it doesn't seem like the same level of image match if that's what you're referring to? Or maybe the "backwards" order of verse 4 is significant and "seek the columns" is the "start" with a sweet image match In the case of Boston (verse 3/image 11) which seems very trailesque we haven't really found a good image match at the suspected starting point of the Boston Public Library (closest is perhaps the Trinity Church for the castle in Pandora's box) though the area hasn't changed much. edit: specifying verse number "Beneath two countries" "As the road curves" On this "curved road," you can see the back of the Italian Gardens, which has the lion & fountain... very prominently centered in image 4. Image verifier... So, not really a line 1 start here image verifier but the second line gets us on the road and then we see our image verifier. Verse 4 can definitely be read backwards for certain lines. In the Japanese translation, it is even stated that one line may go with the previous line or the subsequent line. As you walk the path from where you start, you see quite a few image verifiers. However, in reality with this particular puzzle, you could actually just go straight to the wall and completely miss everything else. If I am not mistaken, please correct me if I am wrong, I believe Brian & Andy stated in the podcast that when they got there, they went straight to the wall and then looked around to verify. However, I believe they had already identified everything so there was no real need to start at the beginning once they got there. More like a, "let's have a look... oh yeah... this is it!" This one was not as much of a journey as Chicago, but it still leads you to the columns, think Greek, ... solution. If you were to walk this particular path from "Beneath two countries..." to the wall, it is only about 0.2 miles. The Chicago path from M & B to fence & fixture would be about 0.4 miles. The 2 solved puzzle verses seem to pinpoint a dig spot very precisely. The others, maybe not so much... yet to be seen. The theory is that they should... Guess we'll see when the next one is brought back to daylight.

those sign weren't there in 1979, Parkgate was called Pollock Dr., East Blvd was Upper Dr., MLK Dr. was called Lower Dr. it was NEVER Euclid Ave.

I think the coast may be clear. Let's fire this thread back up.

BINGO wrote:: I think the coast may be clear. Let's fire this thread back up. +1

Hey all, I was reading one of the older posts on this thread about the paring of the images and the verses but I am still confused if there is a proper method to doing so or is it like everything else, a best guess? How certain are we that the current order is correct?

NYCNative wrote:: Hey all, I was reading one of the older posts on this thread about the paring of the images and the verses but I am still confused if there is a proper method to doing so or is it like everything else, a best guess? How certain are we that the current order is correct? I believe that is/was one of the major points that this thread was trying to get across to everyone. The OP began to share information, while not exactly new or unknown, but was being interpreted and shared in a very new way. Personally, I was put off by this thread in its early stages, but I have become very interested in how it all weaves together. Hopefully, the author(s) can bring this thing to the finish line.

I think the point of this thread was to point people in a direction, and let them get to the end on their own. But there just wasn't enoug information for people to create a path... if that makes sense. I agree though. The information and conversation was good. I wish it would continue.

Ill ask again...what exactly is being spilled here? The title of the thread implies that solid information is known and proven by a few and they are attempting to slowly share it here? what is that point? if you know it, spill it.

strike13 wrote:: Ill ask again...what exactly is being spilled here? The title of the thread implies that solid information is known and proven by a few and they are attempting to slowly share it here? what is that point? if you know it, spill it. Not meant to be read in a jerk tone...I am just genuinely curious

What was supposed to be spilled was the method of how the verses matches with the images, from what I gathered. I haven't read anything that helps and everyone is always so cryptic. I guess the point is that nobody knows how to match the verses with the images correctly.

I have no idea what's going on here, but my opinion on whether a consistent method for linking verses to images is no, none exists. What seems to be a verse link for one doesn't seem to work for others. The Greek puzzle for starters would make quick sense given theres some Greeks mentioned in verse 4, but then theres also those mentioned in verse 3, so maybe that's all we can hope for as one approach or another is likely going to have options, or be more vague as difficulty increases. That leads me to the concept of difficulty itself. Any job becomes immensely difficult when the wrong tools or no tools at all are being used. I think it is necessary to figure out what tools are needed for each puzzle. Finding these tools may includes looking at word definitions, grammar, quotes, acrostics, homophones, synonyms, historical events, art and architecture, cultural bias and interesting departures from the norm or a common perspective of Man, because I believe the fair Folk went for something uniquely fitting to whatever traits that would be expected of them. Ultimately, I think a foundation of reason for every hint is packed tightly into each puzzle creation.

NYCNative wrote:: I was reading one of the older posts on this thread...

burnstyle wrote:: I think the point of this thread was to point people in a direction, and let them get to the end on their own. But there just wasn't enoug information for people to create a path... if that makes sense. I agree though. The information and conversation was good. I wish it would continue. The primary intent of this thread was the "AKA" part, and that is now complete. Very, very complete. Satisfyingly complete. The remainder of the spill, and it's secondary intent, will be a deluge. A few sentences will be all it will take, and then anyone could go and solve the puzzles that remain. The timing must be right, and I must have JJP's blessing. I'm working on that. If he won't bite, it may go with me to my grave, and I'll end up cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Kang wrote:: +1 You two will be the first to know.

dosethree wrote:: The image match is pretty interesting. The wiki for image 5 has that symbol down as matching to a old removed facade of a building (sullivan center 1 south state street) which is about 5 blocks away from the treasure site, but this is more attractive because it matches the start of the verse (and is still there for us to look at). I always though that (at least for treasure map style verses like Chicago) there should be an image confirmer where you are supposed to start and perhaps at every step along the way, Byrons' way of confirming you are on the right trail. Without the image confirmer its pretty hard to follow successive cryptic verse clues (though verse 12 seems far less cryptic than rest...). And of course, in the case of Chicago they found a mistaken verse+image match to start the trail that works even better than the real one (since the image match is so clear and it gets you right where you need to be). They are both pretty good matches to my eye, but the wiki one is dead on. I wonder which one is correct? Could they both be correct? Could neither be correct? Do you think it matters? What role did it play in the Chicago solution? What role does it play in your understanding of the Chicago solution today? Did it matter to the dudes that were given the information by Preiss needed to dig one up, or to Preiss in order to give them that information? Would Preiss include things if they didn't matter?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Could they both be correct? Could neither be correct? Do you think it matters? What role did it play in the Chicago solution? What role does it play in your understanding of the Chicago solution today? Did it matter to the dudes that were given the information by Preiss needed to dig one up, or to Preiss in order to give them that information? Would Preiss include things if they didn't matter? As you try to reconcile your answers to those questions, ask yourself this... How pissed would you be if your solve relied on it being one of the objects, and Preiss said, "No, you're wrong. It's this other one," and then gave the casque to someone else. Better yet, what if it's one on the other side of the city that you haven't yet found?

Indeed it is a strange-disposèd time: But men may construe things after their fashion, Clean from the purpose of the things themselves.

Et tu Thrasher? (God bless the internet. In 1982 I'd need to be as smart as Byron (and Thrasher) and just know stuff. Oh, the humanity...).

Unknown: Et tu Thrasher? Welcome to the D Zone.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Indeed it is a strange-disposèd time: But men may construe things after their fashion, Clean from the purpose of the things themselves. At least I know what kind of salad I am having for lunch now!

Is it possible 421, that there could be more than one piece of classic Art referenced in an image? I completely see the meaning of The virgin of the rocks in the foreground for SF, but the background I see a lot of inspiration from a Chinese classic by Qu Ding called "Summer Mountains" https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1973.120.1/ This particular painting seems to contain some interesting references such as the idea that viewers are meant to identify emperor like images within the mountains that overlook their subjects and that the month for SF is June (height of the "Summer" months) is referenced in the clock. I've tried following this thread (have actually gone though it 3 times) but in areas its difficult to follow due to missing sections and sections where Josh C interrupts it.

bbi wrote:: Is it possible 421, that there could be more than one piece of classic Art referenced in an image? I completely see the meaning of The virgin of the rocks in the foreground for SF, but the background I see a lot of inspiration from a Chinese classic by Qu Ding called "Summer Mountains" https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1973.120.1/ This particular painting seems to contain some interesting references such as the idea that viewers are meant to identify emperor like images within the mountains that overlook their subjects and that the month for SF is June (height of the "Summer" months) is referenced in the clock. I've tried following this thread (have actually gone though it 3 times) but in areas its difficult to follow due to missing sections and sections where Josh C interrupts it. Sure, why not. In fact, we "know" there is more than one art clue in puzzles. We also "know" there's more than one lit clue in others, right? This looks like that, right? This reads like that, right? Just keep guessing what palencar and preiss meant for us to see (or one of them tell you), and eventually we'll figure it out, right? Just keep drawing numbers and digging holes till you get it right. I'm not saying your wrong. Quite the contrary. I'm saying you're right. A publisher would definitely front a bunch a money for a puzzle like that, right? Or maybe, that's not the puzzle the publisher fronted money for, it's just the one everyone's trying to solve.

I sincerely enjoy it when 421 and Reno discuss the actual puzzle. So, where are we with all of this? Have we reached a specific step? Was there a hint dropped that we missed? Let's get this back on track!

Hold up. There's a puzzle? That sounds cool, what's it about?

forest_blight wrote:: Hold up. There's a puzzle? That sounds cool, what's it about? Honestly? It's an exercise in learning to eliminate all distractions, rejecting all the bait, no matter how tempting, and a test of your ability to stay focused on that which matters. (which certainly explains a few things around here).

Got it.