A friend of mine suggests Washington DC for this verse. "Where white is in color" may be the famous cherry blossoms. "After circle and square" may have something to do with the Mall (I'm not sure why). "Look north at the wing" may refer to the White House. "By dauntless and inconquerable" may refer to what is inscribed on a plaque, statue or monument. --Johann

Personally, I wonder if that "By dauntless" is supposed to be taken another way. As in "Near the 'Dauntless'". A Coast Guard ship named "Dauntless" was berthed near Miami until 1993 (in other words, that is where it was when "The Secret" was published). There was also a WWII warplane called the "Douglas Dauntless".  I wonder if any are sitting around in some park or air museum? Now, all we need is a synonym for "inconquerable determination."  Like, is there a ship called "Resolve"? And where is it?

Orville and Wilbur Wright were good (though somewhat on and off) friends of aviation pioneer Octave Chanute, and they first flew in December.  Thus, I read the first two lines as a reference to the Wright Brothers. Unfortunately, there are so many references to a statue unveiled last year and their famous flight around the Statue of Liberty, that I can't find mention of any older statues of them (might expect in their hometown of Dayton, Ohio or at the Air and Space Museum in D.C.).  They are buried in Dayton. Also potentially relevant:  August Herring was a competitor of theirs, and the verse mentions August.  The verse also mentions a wing.

Verse 11 Pass two friends of octave In December Ride the man of oz To the land near the window There's a road that leads to Dark forest Where white is in color With two maps After circle and square In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. "After circle and square" may refer to the overhead view of the area.  There's definitely a circle. hxxp://www.nps.gov/wrbr/indepth/wrightmap.htm

cool!  amazing how the authors seem to have anticipated the google age, in which simply substituting an i for a u makes 'dauntless and inconquerable' almost impossible to find - now we're getting somewhere. . . could this be the circle, square, July, and August (7th and 8th Ave.)?

wow, last time I checked in, I passed right by this thread.  This, to me, is a DIRECT HIT.  I will definitely start looking into this V.  Great find SC9.  :o

Unknown: Pass two friends of octave In December Ride the man of oz To the land near the window I have a confirmer that we're near Kitty Hawk. You can take a ferry out to Cape Hatteras to begin your travel, and there is a ferry named Baum. The man who wrote "The Wizard of Oz" was Frank L. Baum. OK, so the ferry is named after Thomas Baum, but still!  You are riding "the man of oz", right? hxxp://www.ncferry.org/FerryVessels/hatteras/ I'm researching the routes now to see if it leads to "the land near the window". BTW, North Carolina is a major source of the mineral mica, and its coastline would probably have plenty of driftwood. EDIT: damn!  This ferry boat was built in 1995. Time to research what routes were in use in the early 80's. blah.

There is a Baum Site listed on the National Register of Historic Places: hxxp://www.arch.dcr.state.nc.us/sites/baum.htm

After further investigation, it seems that the name Baum is popular in that area of the state.  The entire ferry system was created by a man named Baum!  Additionally, the bridge between the Outer Banks and Roanoke Island is named the Washington Baum Bridge. Now, if instead of ending at Kitty Hawk or the Wright Memorial (where it might be illegal to dig), perhaps we start there.  "Ride" the Baum Bridge over to Roanoke Island, where the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens has a plaque with a quotation about a "dark forest".  The Gardens also has both a square and a circle.  (Of course, it is probably just as frowned upon to dig here too.) Oh, and the history of Roanoke was made into a play called "The Lost Colony", written by P. Green.  Related to the mystery of Roanoke is a myth about a White Doe.  If the myth was incorporated into the drama, could you say that "white is in color" (green)? Food for thought, that's all.

Don't know if this means anything, but looking around for data on Roanoke Island, I found this: hxxp://www.wvculture.org/history/agrext/roanoke.html There was a man named Octavius Pickering who assigned his land rights to men named Camden and Bailey (friends of Octave). Perhaps there's something named after these people in the area. wilhouse

Unknown: Orville and Wilbur Wright were good friends of aviation pioneer Octave Chanute, and they first flew in December.  Thus, I read the first two lines as a reference to the Wright Brothers. wilhouse, i had forgotten spacecraft9 started us out with this find.  (My buddy Leftbrained just now pointed this connection out to me.)  I am really liking the links to Roanoke, and am posting some close-ups of Image 3 in that thread to confirm. I'm just not certain whether to *start* at Kitty Hawk and go to Fort Raleigh or *end* at the Wright Memorial. Any indication from the two (count 'em, two!) solved verses whether they proceed in a linear fashion from a general location in the associated image?  Or is the image more of a collage of various clues along the way?

John White was one of the main settlers sent to Roanoke Island. hxxp://www.encyclopedia.com/html/W/White-J12.asp He was an artist, and produced some of the earliest paintings of the New World.  Perhaps if one of his paintings is on display somewhere, you could say that "White is in color."

hey cat, where did you find the info about the plaque mentioning Dark Forest?  Seems to me parks are prized property now that 2 of the 12 have been found in parks.  This could be VERY promising. here is a nice layout of the area: hxxp://www.outerbanks.com/elizabethangardens/map.htm

Unknown: could this be the circle, square, July, and August (7th and 8th Ave.)? If so, then "In December" must refer to 12th Ave.

Unknown: hey cat, where did you find the info about the plaque mentioning Dark Forest?  Seems to me parks are prized property now that 2 of the 12 have been found in parks. hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/garde ... .aspx?id=1 sorry if i forgot to post that earlier.

Ooh!  And look, on the main map, the circle and square are clearly shown. hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/garde ... spx#mapkey

I'm also convinced that the brickwork near the roof links this verse with Image 9 (the checkboard pattern on the guy's shirt upsidedown).

"There's a road that leads to Dark forest Where white is in color" It seems that the dark forest reference is clear but what is the white in color?  There is a local legend of Virginia Dare roaming the area as a White Doe: hxxp://www.icw-net.com/tales/mantwdoe.htmbut what about it being in color?  The statue of Virginia Dare in the garden is white and it is surrounded by the colors of the plantlife....?..... would the Elizabethan Gardens be considered off limits in the rules...page 219 - paragraph (c) "any public or private flower bed"

"is in color" is sometimes a phrase for "is in bloom". is there a plant that has white blossoms nearby? gardenia, magnolia or such? wilhouse

Unknown: With two maps After circle and square In July and August hxxp://www.nps.gov/wrbr/indepth/wrightmap.htm it has been suggested the circle and square refer to the layout of the garden, but July & August. I dont see how it applies but both July & August hold great meaning with the Elizabethan Garden... .......On July 13th, 1966 the new Gatehouse is completed and opened as the new entrance to The Elizabethan Gardens. .......On August 18th, 1955 The Elizabethan Gardens were dedicated and opened to the public.  The Elizabethan Gardens has a ceremony and formally opens on August 18, 1960 Virginia Dare's birthday.

"To the land near the window" another definition of window: A means of access or observation: St. Petersburg was Peter the Great's window onto the Baltic. Maybe this area is a window to the ocean?

our window? "From here, the piney path leads directly to the shore where a delightful gate opens to the sea. " hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/garde ... aspx?id=16

it was our hope that one could see the Wright Memorial wing from that shore, or at least the beacon on its top at night.  The verse doesn't say that one needs to see the "wing", though, just to turn to face its direction.

The "gate" is on the shoreline facing the barrier islands and by the looks of a map at expediamaps.com, depending on how tall the monument is, I suppose it may be conceivable to see it.

Just in case your search comes up empty on this one (and I apologize for bringing in a different state) the L.Frank Baum Oz Museum is in Chittenango, NY (Mr. Baum was also born here). I am not exactly suggesting that this pic go with NY, but perhaps there is another clue in the name Chittenango or something. Chittenango competes for Wizard of Oz tourists with Kansas City, Liberal and Sedan, KS; Grand Rapids, MI; Aberdeen, SD; and Chesterton, IN...just something I found that maybe someone might find a hidden clue in.

Just another dumb thought to toss out in the mix.  Could the "man of oz" be Frank Oz of Muppets fame?  Watched the end of The Muppet Movie with my son and the name Oz in credits made me think of this hunt.  Think he may also have been the voice of Yoda.  Oh well...back to the hunt.

great to see all the new participants after Egbert's press. . . I noticed an earlier post to this page is now missing, so to fill in a few blanks and in the spirit of collaboration (which I really think is the only way we'll solve these) I offer this review of earlier posts plus a few new thoughts linking V11 (and possibly also P3) to Roanoke Island: Pass two friends of octave In December A reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial, Kill Devil Hills, NC.  The Wrights were friends of aviation pioneer Octave Chanute and they first flew on December 17th. Ride the man of oz Possibly a reference to Washington Baum bridge (L. Frank Baum wrote The Wizard of Oz) which connects to Roanoke Island.  Possibly also a reference to a ferry to Roanoke Island  (the Thomas A. Baum Ferry was built in 1995, but there could have have been an earlier ferry bearing his name?  The NC Ferry web site says "In 1947, the commission purchased the ferry operation of T.A. Baum, who operated a route that ran across Croatan Sound and linked Manns Harbor and Roanoke Island. This became the first route of the N.C. Ferry System." To the land near the window maybe something --sylvania (as in a window sill)? There's a road that leads to Dark forest the official Elizabethan Gardens' web page ( hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org ) says: A large bronze plaque embedded in the entrance wall bears this inscription by Inglis Fletcher, a noted author: “Down the centuries, English women have built gardens, to the glory of God, the beauty of the countryside and the comfort of their souls. The women of The Garden Club of North Carolina, Inc. have planted this garden in memory of the valiant men and women who founded the first English colony in America. From this hallowed ground on Roanoke Island, they walked away through the dark forest and into history. 1985-1951” Where white is in color John White was governor of the 1587 Roanoke colony, and grandfather of Virginia Dare, but more famous for his watercolor paintings. With two maps After circle and square Possibly a reference to the sunken garden - hxxp://www.outerbanks.com/elizabethangardens/map.htm In July and August A path beckons From the Outer Banks' Elizabethan Gardens' web page ( hxxp://www.outerbanks.com/elizabethangardens/ ): Meandering paths will beckon you to the woodland and wildlife garden, alive with beautifully colored Monarch butterflies, or to the 16th century gazebo with a fantastic view of Roanoke Sound where you may gaze out across the waters which brought the first English colonists to this spot over 400 years ago. (different flowers bloom in different months, not sure what lines the path to the gazebo) To mica and driftwood mica is common in NC, this page shows some nice driftwood: hxxp://www.angelfire.com/nc/dewsers/eg2.html Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing my only thought is that the first part of the word gazebo is gaze (first seen?) Look north at the wing looking from the gazebo north would be Colington Island, which has the distinct shape of a birds wing hxxp://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=M7 ... country=us another web page ( hxxp://colingtonharbour.org/the_history ... arbour.htm ) says “From the air, Colington Island resembles a verdant butterfly with a tattered right wing, resting on shoals inside the barrier islands,” but the bird-wing resemblence seems more striking to me.  Also possibly relevant – Wright Brothers Monument, Kitty Hawk, Buzzards Bay, Eagleton and roads named Eagle, Sandpiper, Sea Gull, Swan, and Raptor on Colington Island all due north of Elizabethan Gardens) And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal the Wright Brothers Monument inscription includes ACHIEVED BY DAUNTLESS RESOLUTION AND UNCONQUERABLE FAITH my guess that this goes with P3 is based on it being one of only a few not confirmed to go with other verses, the English theme and knight's armor relating to the first settlement of Roanoke and Fort Raleigh, the map of Roanoke Island in the wall, and the things that could be red flower petals relating to the gardens. Now, is anybody in the group from NC??

First of all... hello to everyone from a Secret newbie!  I've been lurking on the boards for a couple months now, trying to decipher the clues in the hopes of contributing. After sharing some theories with Catherwood via AIM a few weeks back, I decided to take a trip down to NC for the weekend.  I found nothing new to confirm P3, (I've always thought the "land by the window" is referring to the outline of Roanoke island by the window in P3).  However, I did find some definite confirmations of the verse.  Including at least 1 new one. I didn't bring back a casque, but I think I know where to find one.  I have to rush to work now.  More details and pictures to come... -Travis

that's great!  will look forward to the pics and insights one other link to P3 I forgot to mention is the horse's head on the armor possibly pointing to Nags Head, NC (between WBNM and Roanoke)

interesting tidbits from a national geographic story back in March... A group of archaeologists and historians met in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, earlier this month to launch the First Colony Foundation to raise money for new archaeological excavations in the Fort Raleigh park. They plan to start digging into one of the United States' most enduring historical puzzles early this summer. ...i wonder if they went through with the excavation? In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand. (Park Service staff did not excavate the objects, but suspect they could be related to Hariot's work.) ...could it be?? maybe?? nahhhhh... but it would be interesting to see if we could get ahold of those gpr results in details. hxxp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... olony.html travwv - any updates or developments in your search? After reviewing this thread and the verse I'm quite convinced that the casque is there (somewhere in the Fort Raleigh Park near the gardens)

Unknown: In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand. (Park Service staff did not excavate the objects, but suspect they could be related to Hariot's work.) travwv - any updates or developments in your search? After reviewing this thread and the verse I'm quite convinced that the casque is there (somewhere in the Fort Raleigh Park near the gardens) Hello everyone! I know it's been ages since my last post.  Been busy so I thought I should check in.  After my trip to Ft. Raleigh, I made several attempts to contact the National Park Service via e-mail.  I had conversations with several employees, unfortunately the "Resource Manager" who apparently has authority over the park has not responded to any of my e-mails. SoonerFan, your post is very interesting!  The spot where I am convinced the casque lies is indeed sandy, and it also happens to be on the trail named after Thomas Hariot! Armed with the information in your post, I will make an effort to contact the NPS again.  If they won't arrange a dig, maybe they'll at least give me access to that GPR data. At any rate, to rejuvenate interest in this verse, here are some pics from my trip to tide you over.  Everyone should find the last 2 especially interesting! hxxp://mason.gmu.edu/~jparsley/secret/pic1.html

travwv, glad to see your still on the case for the NC treasure. Looking forward to reading about your find in the Roanoke Daily Herald soon.

Thanx for the pix Trav.  I can see why the 2d to last pic would interest us but I think I must be missing what is found in the last.

Fox, I believe it's just another confirmer of the verse that I found on the path to where the casque may be...and one that no one had yet found  ;) "Where white is in color With two maps" There were plenty of references and paintings by John White in the vistitors center, but I didn't understand the "with two maps" until I found that marker in pic 4. As it stands, thanks to everyone's great detective work on the verse, I think I can place match nearly every line in the verse to something at/on the way to Ft. Raleigh! -Travis

Greetings from a brand-newbie to The Secret and treasure hunting in general.  The current thinking really fits in well with the verse.  I haven't been to the Thomas Hariot Trail (or the Elizabethan garden gate access) yet, but the phrase "Under that which may be last touched or first seen standing" could refer to something that is touched by the sun.  If there's anything tall on/near the beach, it would be the last thing touched by the sunset and first seen with the sunrise.

welcome to the hunt Nodon... that is an interesting way to look at that phrase.  i like the sun interaction.... Nice

Trip Report to the Outer Banks of North Carolina Several weeks we visited the Outer Banks – primarily to sightsee, but why not try for a casque?  For those who want the 10-second version – nothing found, but still some possibility. For those who want the longer version – read on!  Shoot me a message if you can’t read the links – they should work, but things happen.  Also, some of my narrative have been discussed elsewhere, but I wanted to string it all together. We traveled south on Hwy 158 from Virginia, crossing the sound onto the Outer Banks. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/1.jpg I don’t have anything new to add to the first four lines of the verse, so I’ll continue to assume that it refers to the Wright Brothers and crossing the Washington Baum Bridge which crosses from the Outer Banks to the island of Manteo, home of the Roanoke colony. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/2.jpg “There’s a road that leads to Dark forest” – The initial colony at Roanoke failed and all the colonists disappeared.  A play dramatizing these events, “The Lost Colony”, describes the disappearance as the colonists “walked away through the dark forest into history”. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/3.jpg “Where white is in color” – John White was the governor of the Roanoke Colony and also an artist who painted in watercolors. “With two maps” – perhaps a reference to a trail marker in Fort Raleigh National Historic Site, location of the Roanoke colony hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/4.jpg hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/5.jpg “After circle and square” – located within, but separate from, the National Historic Sight are the Elizabethan Gardens (see white section in hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/4.jpg ).  The map of the gardens shows a circle and square – several in fact. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/6.jpg “In July and August” – jumping back over to the National Historic Site is a plague.  The original picture wasn’t so great – and neither is my attempt to enhance it.  But the first line says “On this site in July-August 1585”. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/7.jpg “A path beckons To mica and driftwood” – at this point we can jump back to the Elizabethan Gardens and follow the path indicated as 16 on the map. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/6.jpg Here’s the path itself. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/9.jpg Or we could jump off the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/8.jpg Either way, we come to roughly the same spot, within 50 feet or so.  I’m assuming that the path is beckoning towards the beach – certainly driftwood is there.  Mica is a silicate, sand is a silicate.  Keep in mind; I’m neither a chemist nor a geologist. “Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing” – I was really hoping to find something that was tall because I was thinking of last touched by the sun (at sunset) or first seen standing (at sunrise).  But, there wasn’t anything that stood out that fit the description.  Instead we find hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/10.jpg looking west, hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/11.jpg looking east (it’s a theater that shows “The Last Colony”), and the beach side of the gate from the Elizabethan Gardens (no ribbing about the finger!) hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/12.jpg “Look north at the wing And dig” – standing on the beach, looking at the Sound, is north.  There’s been discussion elsewhere about “the wing” but I can’t verify it.  However, I couldn’t just leave – instead I dug around two trees on either side of the beach side gate.  Didn’t get a thing but it made me think about the changes in the landscape here over the last 20+ years.  Here’s some erosion that’s taken place over some unknown period of time. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/13.jpg This wouldn’t be complete without some references to image 3: Coat of Arms of John White – hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/14.jpg Island of Manteo – The line extending northward on the image would suggest that I should have looked further east than the “x” on the map.  If the line means anything. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/15.jpg Pea in a spoon – Further down the Outer Banks is Pea Island.  The shape of the Outer Banks could (very) loosely be considered spoon shaped. Entrance gate to the Elizabethan Gardens –Unfortunately, not very similar to the arch in the image. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/16.jpg Incomplete set of armor – when John White returned to find Roanoke vanished, he did find his armor rusting on the ground. They didn’t wear the full suit of armor, so the image may represent White’s left-behind armor. Struts on armor – some of the older trees in the Elizabethan Garden have support wires on the older branches. hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/stumilam2/The%20Secret/17.jpg Or it could represent the struts on the Wright flyer. Once again, not successful but fun.  I’m pretty sure I won’t be in that area again – hope someone else can build on this.  Good luck - stu

Stu, Thanks for sharing your pictures and thoughts.  Looks like you had fun!

Well folks, as I live in North Carolina, I am thrilled that there is a high probability of a casque in my neighborhood (two, actually, counting Charleston). It sounds like everyone has the location pretty well nailed down except for that final, crucial detail. "Under that / Which may be last touched / Or first seen standing." I agree with the theory that this refers to the tallest thing around, probably a tree that was blown down by one of the many hurricanes that passed through the area in the last quarter-century, and we need to dig on the north side of where it was. If no living tree stands out as tallest, the only way we will ever find this casque is to (a) find photographs of the beach near the Elizabethan Garden or (b) take a metal detector. Option (b) is probably easier, but may require a permit of some sort. I wonder... is that section of beach approachable from somewhere *other* than the Garden? Somewhere that a guy carrying a shovel wouldn't look suspicious?

The beach is accessible from the national site - which surrounds the Elizabethan Gardens.  To get to the beach, you can either hop off the Harriot trail (the beach is just over a berm at one curve of the trail), or you can get to the beach from the theater.  Once on the beach, you can walk up the beach, passing by the Gardens (with the closed off gate) and keep going. When I was there in late March/early April, the beach had a few people close to the Harriot trail approach, but it was empty further up.  I dug (with my hands, no shovel) near a tree near the Garden's closed off gate.  Every now and then, someone would pop their head up on the Garden side, but because of the scrub & trees, they couldn't really tell what I was doing.

I'm still rooting for someone to find the treasure there.  From the description of the Cleveland dig, I don't think merely digging with your hands is going to get you deep enough, and I don't think a metal detector would be of any use.  Rather than sneaking around, it may come down to becoming fast friends with the groundskeeper.  What about the idea of getting a long rod to probe the ground?

I think the place to dig would be right under the center of the gate opening.  The verse just mentioned the path beckoning toward the driftwood.  Then the gate is the last thing standing at the end of the path.  It's also the first thing seen as you come back into the garden.  I would guess the "look north at the wing" is just further confirmation that it's at the shore.

Hey, that gives me more hope! Good thing I own a shovel...

All right - go to someone!  Unfortunately, i'm moving from Md back west as we speak, so I'm not headed back to Manteo island in the foreseeable future. Not sure how many folks have been to the Elizabethan gardens - i got the distinct impression that if someone is not there to appreciate the gardens/flowers/trees/etc., then they are probably not welcome.  No offense to anyone who works there or knows someone that works there, but the ladies running the Gardens don't seem to brook any nonsense.  Like catherwood said, maybe the maintenace or groundskeeping.

just a synaptic twitch.... but what would happen if you buried the probe of a common fish finder...? Does it become underground sonor? Or does it become junk?

Probably means nothing but I came across this while perusing my new dictionary of symbols.  I'm sure there are more meanings to each but these are what has been mentioned numerous times thru out the first few pages of the book. Circle & Square = Heaven & Earth.... What it means or if it ties in with the V, I do not know.  Is there a church nearby?

There's various ancient-looking statuary - but I can't recall any tie to Julius & Augustus Ceasar.  In the sunken garden are four statues - Apollo, Diana, Venus, Jupiter - Roman gods (at least V. & J.). Totally unrelated, but something I didn't catch while I was there back in March, was the Ancient Live Oak in the gardens.  Apparently, this oak has been there since the founding of the colony back in 1585.  Guess I shouldn't have carved "The Secret" in it when I was there!  just kidding.

I believe I might drive out to Roanoke this Saturday to do a little reconnaissance. I plan to take my camera and copies of V11 and P3. Any requests or advice?

Good luck forest - if I could do my trip over again,  i'd (a) spend some more time around the Garden Gate to the beach, (b) talk to someone at the Gardens to see if they have heard rumors of the treasure, and (c) look closer at the pic of what looks like Manteo island and compare it to the actual map - the line on the pic that extends northwards might be important.  I don't think I was in the place that corresponds to the line on the pic. Unrelated to the secret, don't forget the good seafood, if you are into that.  And there are some cool shipwreck remnants as you follow the beach south.

The most amazing thing about this hunt for me is it is all about the find. People who are in it for the money or fame soon lose interest. Hear hear! I've got my printouts, my maps, my Coppertone, my bug spray... and heck, I'll even toss my shovel in the trunk on the .1% chance inspiration strikes and no one is looking.

Now, if only there weren't a hurricane hurtling toward Manteo...

Not for nothing, but the Gazebo is made without nails.  EJ Bandfield's MY TROPIC ISLE talks about a structure built from mica and driftwood, tied together without nails. "Which may be last touched or first seen", haven't got a clue.  Definately look around the Gazebo though.  Good luck.

I spent my day at Roanoke and only just got back. It was a terrific trip (sorry, no casque!), and I'm tuckered. I will post the full story soon, hopefully tomorrow. Not much new to add, but I do have some observations that reinforce the existing Roanoke theory. More later...

This is the first of a few posts on my Roanoke trip. Before you read on, I recommend that everyone go back and read spacecraft9's post of 9/13/04 and nodon's post of 4/24/05. I drove out on Saturday morning, crossing into Roanoke via the lower Rt. 64. Some maps don't show it yet (including Google), but there are two bridges to Roanoke Island from the west. Passing up several opportunities to eat, I shot straight for the Elizabethan Gardens. Take a self-tour: hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/selfmap.jpg It's a terrific place, only a few acres but very well maintained and tranquil. Full of statuary. Not many people there yesterday. I wandered around for a while taking pictures, but saved the best for last, heading for the Water Gate that leads onto the beach. The gate was locked. A gardener (later I discovered her name was Margaret) was there, raking debris off the path. I said hi, and something about me must have said "treasure hunter" because she commented that someone with a metal detector could probably find loads of stuff out on that beach. Maybe it was the 4-foot shovel I had slung across my back (just kidding). I asked her if it would be okay to walk out onto the beach; she said it was probably not a good idea to do it from the Gardens. So, back to the Gardens for more photography. Ready to leave, I ask another gardener (Diane) if there was a way to get onto the beach, but she didn't know of anywhere nearby. Then I asked if there was anyone there who had been there at least since 1982. She replied Gary the gardener (not there that day). When she asked why I had all these questions, I told her. Once we got past the initial "okay, this guy's a crackpot" look, she became intrigued with the idea of the verse-and-picture combination leading to a treasure, and caught treasure fever as she tried to figure out what could be meant by Under that / Which may be last touched / Or first seen standing . She led me to a "staff only" area of the grounds where she showed me an old postcard she'd found, showing trees on the beach. Margaret showed up and pointed out that those trees were not near the Gardens at all. Now all three of us are excited about cracking this nut, so Margaret takes us down a path to a little-used trail behind the restrooms that only the gardeners knew about, and we make our way to a point where the barbed-wire fence surrounding the gardens isn't so difficult to cross. We went beachcombing for a bit, speculating about this and that with no hard theories forming. We traded contact information in case inspiration struck, and they insisted that I contact them if I decide to return and dig. Official permission from the administration apparently isn't necessary as long as we have Margaret and Diane on our side! After that I wondered around Fort Raleigh for a bit and then ate dinner at a good seafood restaurant on nodon's suggestion. Sauteed crab meat, mmmm... I wanted to visit the Wright Brothers National Memorial, but they were closing the gates when I got there and I was too tired to look for a back entrance to sneak through.

I want to add some thoughts to spacecraft9's wonderful post of 9/13/04, in the same style. Pass two friends of octave In December Ride the man of oz To the land near the window I agree with those who have pointed out that lines 1 and 2 refer to the Wright Brothers National Memorial, line 3 refers to the Baum bridge or ferry (doesn't matter which), and line 4 refers to Roanoke itself, and definitely links Verse 11 to Image 3. There's a road that leads to Dark forest The phrase "dark forest" appears in the bronze plaque on the front wall of the Elizabethan Gardens. As far as I can tell, it appears nowhere else. Word for word, the plaque reads: THE ELIZABETHAN GARDEN Down the centuries, English women have built gardens, to the glory of God, the beauty of the countryside and the comfort of their souls. The women of the Garden Club of North Carolina, Inc. have planted this garden in memory of the valiant men and women who founded the first English colony in America. From this hallowed ground on Roanoke Island, they walked away through the dark forest , and into history. 1585 - 1951. ..."dark forest" being a metaphor for death, since no European ever saw them alive again.

Where white is in color With two maps Here is a "rephotograph" of nodon's marker. It took some hunting, but I tracked it down in a beach overlook off the Thomas Hariot trail. Of course, after fighting with barbed wire in the Elizabethan Gardens, I found at least three spots that led directly to the beach from the Hariot trail with no impediment, this being one of them. Nodon said this earlier, but I forgot, and I think the ranger on duty would have tackled me had he seen me carrying a shovel in the direction of the Fort Raleigh earthworks in broad daylight. The ranger on duty suspected that the markers had been placed there in the 1970s, well in anticipation of the 1987 quadricentennial of the colony. The Hariot trail itself, he said, had been cleared in the 1960s. The problem is that the marker isn't really in color. It's white-on-brown. And the depicted engraving is by de Brye, not White. Whereas de Brye did turn many of White's watercolors into engravings, we can only speculate that this one was based on a map by White. Here is an account of this engraving: hxxp://www.virtualjamestown.org/images/white_debry_html/white.html#s33 The Visitor Center does have a small museum area with some of White's watercolors. It could be that the first of these lines refers to White's paintings in the Visitor Center while the second line refers - separately - to the map marker and has nothing to do with White.

After circle and square My favorite theory is that this is a reference to the Sunken Garden, a large circular fountain surrounded by a larger landscaped square. Around the fountain are statues of Venus, Jupiter, Diana, and Apollo. In July and August There is a water fountain near The Mount in the Elizabethan Gardens with the name "Augusta" on it. I don't think it has anything to do with our casque, but I thought I'd throw it out there: The Lost Colony is performed June through August now, but was it limited to July and August in 1982? Perhaps we should look into this. But the most convincing theory is nodon's, that this line is a reference to the 1896 Fort Raleigh marker, which contains the phrase "On this site in July - August 1585..." in its first line. A path beckons And look, here's a path beside the 1896 marker, beckoning. This is the path that leads to the theatre, the Hariot trail, and Fort Raleigh. I agree with everything in spacecraft9's post with one exception. I don't think A path beckons refers to the passage on the web page, unless it was transcribed from an old tourist brochure (possible?). This was probably written for the web page, and makes reference to the gazebo built in 1981, scarcely a year before Preiss would have visited. To mica and driftwood Your guess is as good as mine, but there is plenty of driftwood on the beach.

Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing These are the lines giving everyone headaches, because we think they are the ones that precisely determine the spot to dig. I have a theory that even I don't believe, but I'll relate it just in case. If one sits on the bench at the beach overlook and stands, the first thing you see over the fence (or perhaps over encroaching vegetation in 1983?) is the left-most of these posts: It might also be the last one you would touch if you were wading and using them as hand-holds. Look north at the wing The Wright Brothers Memorial is visible from this point. Unfortunately, that would mean the casque is buried on the north side of the leftmost post, but that would put it underwater. And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. i.e., you're standing on it, so dig.

Some general comments... I have come to the conclusion that there are just as many clues pointing to the Elizabethan Gardens as to Fort Raleigh, immediately adjacent to the east. I think Dark forest refers to the plaque and After circle and square probably refers to the Sunken Garden. But Where white is in color / With two maps may refer to a marker on the Thomas Hariot trail in Ft. Raleigh and In July and August refer to a stone marker near the fort site. Both locations empty to spots on the beach that are mere yards from one another, where one may Look north at the wing / And dig . The interior of the Gardens belongs to the Garden Club, and I'm sure I could solicit their full cooperation if I were to present convincing evidence of a spot to dig (like Wilhouse and the Children's Zoo). However, the beach is part of a National Park, and there is no way we could convince them to let us take a ground-penetrating radar device onto land that is protected for archaeological reasons. I took lots of other pictures, mostly of trees, paths, statuary, etc. if anyone cares to see them. But nothing jumped out at me.

One more thing. If anyone else decides to make this trip, do it in April when the azaleas are in bloom and the mosquitos are less bloodthirsty.

Lots of great pix and information FB...thanks!  It seems quite apparent we have the correct "general" location (Roanoke) and now have to hone in on the target.....Eliz Gardens or the fort?  hmmmmm. One idea I have had and seem to keep coming back to when thinking of "Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing" is a tree.....probably the tallest of several trees in that area and the farthest away.  When approaching the trees....you will, of course, see the tallest one first.  Just another twist on this part of the V. thanks again for the walking tour FB.

Yes, that's my favorite theory too (hence the "tree" postcard) but photographs of the beach area are scarce. The only tall trees on that part of the beach are pines, and they go up and come down quickly, as trees go. There are cypress trees elsewhere on the island.

Unfortunately, the northern shore of Roanoke Island is eroding at an alarming rate. A 1972 study determined that the "shoreline on the northern end of Roanoke Island receded more than 900 feet between 1851 and 1970 because of erosion, with 158 feet of loss occurring between 1903 and 1971." That's 2.3 feet per year. If the beach is eroding at the same rate today (which I don't believe is the case), that means we've lost about 53 feet of beach since The Secret was written (!). hxxp://www.nps.gov/fora/pdf/fora_ah.pdf Concrete blocks were put in place around 1980 to prevent erosion around the Waterside Theatre (where The Lost Colony is performed) and the Dough Cemetery, but neither of these actions served to protect "our" area of the beach. Jetties, pilings, and groins have been built to protect various parts of the beach since the early 1940s, but it is unclear what good this has done. The crude wooden jetties currently extending into the sea from the shoreline just outside the Elizabethan Gardens and Fort Raleigh appear to be the same ones built c. 1950 (see nodon's photos), so with any luck there hasn't been much erosion there in the last 23 years. However, signs of erosion are clear. For example, the ground surrounding some of the pilings of the fence around the Gardens has been almost completely eroded away. These pilings would have been sunk several yards from the bank at the time of the fence's construction. What puzzles me is the purpose of these posts sticking up out of the water: Unlike jetties, which extend perpendicular to the beach, these lie in a line parallel to the beach, and are of different heights. Also, what could these sawn-off posts have been in 1982? Something clearly related to to that / Which may be last touched / Or first seen standing ? A sign of some kind? If so, then the verse would point to the spot directly between the posts. The verse does say Under , not Beside , and there are only so many things the casque could be buried Under . Just trying to apply a little logic here.

How about the bench?  This could work in a multitude of ways.  First off....something could definitely be buried under the bench.  Whether it has been there all along is another matter however.  Secondly,  "First seen standing".... What is the first thing you see when standing up from sitting on the bench?  I know, quite a stretch....but unfortunately, it seems like stretches are all we have got at the moment. Just thought of this as well.  Who were the colonists that first arrived in this area?  Maybe there is a legend or a log of their arrival that specifically mentions "a something" that was first seen as they approached. ????????????????????

Forest--- Where is this bench located?  Is it to the left of the gate to the beach?  It's so hard to navigate virtually around these treasure sites when you haven't visited them!

Is there now (or could there have been at the time of the casque burial) a sign in Braille ?  If so, it would explain the "last touched or first seen standing" line. Drew

Fox : It indeed could be the bench. But you see the same things standing as you do sitting down - namely, the fence rail, the ocean, the beach, and vegetation. Perhaps matters were different in 1982. My little fantasy is that those two sawed-off posts once held a sign which would make everything we've been wondering about seem obvious. Like, oh, a paragraph with the phrases "first to see" and "last touched" in it or something similar. I have a sub-fantasy in which the sign itself has been left, forgotten, in the back of a storage shed on the premises. As you can tell, I lead a rich fantasy life. The story of the Lost Colony can be found in many places, including here: hxxp://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc.us/nc/ncsites/english1.htm intrigued : The overlook is a few yards to the east of the Water Gate (to its left, if standing on the beach facing the island). It's at the point in the map below where the Thomas Hariot Trail draws closest to the beach. Here are some maps of the Elizabethan Gardens and Fort Raleigh and a satellite photo with important landmarks noted: hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/selfmap.jpg drewsmith : There could have been, and I hope there was! I will be writing to an administrator soon to ask some questions.

It will be very interesting to find out to what degree Braille was used at that time in any of the park areas.  It also makes me wonder about the rather strange positioning of dots throughout Image 3.  I can't quite figure out if they point to abbreviations (such as "NC") or something else.  But considering how much they are present in that image, I don't think they're entirely random. Drew

New here and a fellow NC'er.... I know there's some concern about erosion shifting/displacing the casque, but wouldn't it almost be safe to say that Preiss when placing them took these facts into consideration? And also into consideration that the images/verses possibly wouldn't spawn any immediate results? He did after all protect the casques in boxes, seems like he considered them being there for years.

It is difficult to say. Preiss is on record as saying he thought they would all be solved within months.

This last weekend we had stopped into fort raleigh and the elizabeth gardens on our way to hatteras. Forest blights pictures/observations are excellent and complete.  I don't have much to add, other than a few thoughts or ideas. "after circle and square"--- if you look at the map of fort raleigh--could it just be the parking areas??--they are sort-of circle and square.   which then you would look for Nodon's 1896 marker(in july and august) that forest blight had photographed next to the path that eventually leads to the beach and bench area.(mica and driftwood) like forest blight had said-- things have changed a bit.  those sawn off posts(what they were used for) at the bench/beach overlook area could be the missing key to clarify things. I like the idea of being buried under the bench.-- but again, like someone had said,- was the bench always right there in that spot? and we had checked out the elizabeth garden gate area.(by the beach)  It seems that there is a solid cement foundation all around that gate area about 3-4 inches down.-- unless it is cemented over- it isn't under the gate. sixer

Unknown: You had asked several months ago regarding the vintage of the signs located along the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail at Fort Raleigh National Historic Site. Most were designed and placed along the trail by 1985, in time for the 400th anniversary of the Roanoke Voyages. They were designed with assistance from the Harpers Ferry Wayside Design and planning office for the National Park Service. My apologies for the late response, but this is the ideal time for taking care of your question. Please feel free to email or contact me for any other questions and comments you may have. Unknown: I have consulted someone who had worked here years ago, and here is an additional note to share with you: All the present nature trail waysides were designed by a student intern in the late 70's named Ken Johns. There was no involvement by Harpers Ferry Center, and they were in place by 1982. There was once a very handsome dual post sign for the Thomas Harriot Nature Trail near the trail entrance. It seems to have been removed, perhaps due to rot. Hope this will help fill out the answer I had given earlier. The only other improvement to the spot would be the erosion control logs, holding back the soil near the water upon which the bench and posts rest. I do not know of the record or information of that kind of work to share with you. Unknown: I wish there was a warmer lead to find Ken, but that goes back so many years that it may have left our institutional knowledge. I'll ask one or two local people, but unfortunately I probably won't be able to locate him for you. I'll check, but if you don't hear back soon it means I can't find what you need to contact him. Happy holidays to all. I have been in contact with an official at Fort Raleigh on Roanoke Island regarding those signposts on the Hariot Trail overlook. Recall that I am of the opinion that whatever these posts once held may prove to be the key to this riddle. He responds (12/9/05): and (12/13/05): I am looking for Ken Johns. I've also made an inquiry at the Harpers Ferry Center about the contents of their old markers. I'll report if I find out anything. Followup:

Followup re Harpers Ferry Center: They sent me a large mail tube last week marked "Fort Raleigh." In it were three cellophane transparencies of material that had been on park displays in the 1980s. One was a life-size rendering of a White/DeBry woodcut of a Native American; another of a European (possibly Sir Walter Raleigh); and a third consisting of labels meant to overlay a large map of the Sound. None had any obvious links to our verse. Just wanted to let you know that this angle has been pursued to death. I wanna know what was on that sign!!

Any lightposts or lighthouses in that area?  Last touched, first seen?? Did the brothers aim at a certain target on their maiden flight?

I changed my mind on this one.  Based on the angle of the picture, it is difficult to tell if those posts go horizontally along the coast or vertically out into the sea from the coastline.  Perhaps last touched and first seen relates to the posts as the tide changes.  I noticed the varying heights of the posts and based on all other evidence, this place seems right.  Over the last 25 years, could tidal changes be so significant as to be unpredicted by the author.  Is IN conquerable IN the ocean.  53 feet of lost beach. and the size of those posts, seems to indicate it might be under the post closest to the beach.  Just a thought. Coach

They run parallel to the beach, their purpose unclear since I don't think they would pose much of a hindrance to further erosion.

Another followup re the Harpers Ferry Center. The tube they sent contained more than 3 cellophane (?) transparencies. I took some admittedly bad photographs before sending them back. I do not think these will be helpful, but for completeness' sake I post them here: hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/fr1.jpg hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/fr2.jpg hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/fr3.jpg hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/fr4.jpg The reason I sought these out was on the remote chance that they represent what was on the missing sign from the Hariot Trail overlook. These, I fear, were used as templates for larger illustrations in the visitor's center. Have we hit a dead end here?

Your work is well appreciated.  Don' give up.  That verse must be there!

Found a 1956 Fort Raleigh National Park Service manual on ebay - bought it on the off chance of some useful information.  No luck, but there were a couple of pictures.  The granite marker (which is clearer than the one I posted a year ago), and a 1956 map of the area. I was really hoping to see something interesting at the beach where the pier supports (or whatever they are) are showing up now.  But nothing was noted on the map in 1956, so can't tell if there was anything there in 1982, or what is remaining in 2006.  And we thought a 24 year old mystery was tough, try 50 years! I'll be scanning in the manual over the next week - shoot me a line if you'd like a pdf of it.  Or even the larger marker picture.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up already, but that marker above does say "in July - August," which is in Verse 11.

Unknown: Not sure if anyone has brought this up already That would be nodon

Did any connection between mica and driftwood turn up?  Driftwood of course is common, but hardly eternal.  Mica while rare?, is used in windows. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mica Seems this is a step missing from this path of the dark forest (or it is no longer there) Nice work but I do not see any image connection that sticks.

After circle and square In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing --------------------------------------- After circle and square indicates that you have to go beyond the gardens as was tried. A path beckons in July and August from what I have seen the actors lead the audience to the theater for the Lost Colony play To mica and driftwood mica refers to glitz and glitter (razzle dazzle)-theater drfitwood refers to the theater itself (see photo) UNDER THAT  (directions on where to dig)  the stage itself Which may be last touched Or first seen standing This is also called the Waterside Theater for its location This stage would be the last touched if someone was getting on a boat and leaving the island behind the stage from the beach. Also, this is the first seen standing if someone was arriving at the island on this spot of the beach. Behind the stage there must only be so many areas that are digging assessible and not under water.  I assume that looking North at the Devil Hill would help select the spot.

Unknown: mica refers to glitz and glitter (razzle dazzle)-theater drfitwood refers to the theater itself (see photo) Unknown: This is also called the Waterside Theater for its location This stage would be the last touched if someone was getting on a boat and leaving the island behind the stage from the beach. Also, this is the first seen standing if someone was arriving at the island on this spot of the beach. Unknown: Behind the stage there must only be so many areas that are digging assessible and not under water.  I assume that looking North at the Devil Hill would help select the spot. To play devil's advocate... This is a pretty big stretch, I think. There is no shortage of actual driftwood on the beach west of the stage. The stage is locked up at night and there are people there during the day. I don't think it is quite remote enough to bury a casque in. The beach itself, though, would be ideal. But this would apply to any location on the shore. Behind the stage, and for some distance in either direction, the beach is covered by large rocks to prevent erosion. Aerial views through Google Earth will show you what I mean. It's treacherous to walk on them.

Assuming that Goggle Earth was not around in 1982, but it is a great shot and great thought provoker.... Look at this which is proably the medium used for this book.... hxxp://www.nps.gov/fora/about.htm Can the reference to circle and square refer to the theater parking and not the garderns. If this were the case, you would be searching too far west.

I'll buy that as a possibility. But I think the Sunken Garden is a better match, since they are a true circle and square whereas the parking lots are only approximations.

But as the verse saids, you are not looking at the actual areas, just their representations on a map.

Following the link about the play, the right side of the stage has a repesentation of the boat as a mast which actually moves on and of the stage within the production. This mast, at its resting position, is between the stage and just beyond the parking lot area. Could this be "last seen standing"? You can see it on your goggle earth.

See behind the scenes.... a photo of behind the stage (but from the left side) hxxp://www.nps.gov/fora/images.htm I am still wodering about the last part of the verse and if it was written in describing either their sailing vessel, their voyage, or just the lost people.

BINGO. The last lines describe the "wing" you are looking North at. see...... hxxp://shop.store.yahoo.com/nc-historic ... ndunf.html The title is from the inscription on the Kitty Hawk momument.

spacecraft9 noted that the lines refer to the Kitty Hawk monument in 2004. It has also been noted that one can see the Memorial itself from the beach on Roanoke. There are many, many good findings in earlier pages in this thread.

Seems so long ago....

Photo of the poles in the water... this is early 1960 after the second theater was knocked down. Nice shot of shoreline. hxxp://www.outerbanks.com/lostcolony/hi ... y-06.shtml

Nice find! I'll bet the protective rocks were placed there after the reconstruction, which would have been years before the casque was buried. Even if the verse didn't point us to the beach west of the theatre (I think it does), remember that the beach would have been much easier for BP to access than the theatre. It's lonely out there, and sand is easy to dig in.

You still need a virtually unmovable reference point in which to key off of. Byron would have made sure of that. The path to the Dark Forest to me is the walk from the box office to the stage.

While driftwood may be very common on the beach there, mica would not be... Its uses are in paint and heat resistant insulation - electronics.. sounds like amniotronics and lighting. hxxp://www.mii.org/Minerals/photomica.html Not your common variety garden material.

forest_blight wrote:: It's lonely out there, and sand is easy to dig in. Also easier for Mother Nature to dig in tho.  Wouldnt erosion be something BP would think about when burying a casque?

Yes, if he thought the hunt would last more than a few months, which he didn't.

Bumping this thread up as the summer is a nice time to see an outdoor play.... "A path beckons to ... "Mica and driftwood" in July and August mica - to represent sand driftwood - to represent the stage The part to complete... "Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing" Well... here is "first seen standing"... Lost Colony: A Symphonic Drama of American History: Product details Lost Colony: A Symphonic Drama of American History by Green, Paul Rate it Product detailsCompare pricesReviews & ratings In 1937, "The Lost Colony, Paul Green's dramatic retelling of the founding and mysterious disappearance of the Roanoke Island colony, opened to standing-room-only audiences and rave reviews. Since then, the beloved outdoor drama has played to more than 3 million people, and it is still going strong. Produced by the Roanoke Island Historical Association at the... More Waterside Theater near Manteo, North Carolina, "The Lost Colony has run for more than sixty summers almost without interruption. (Production was suspended during World War II, when the threat of German submarines prowling the coast made an extended blackout necessary.) The model for modern outdoor theater, "The Lost Colony combines song, dance, drama, special effects, and music to breathe life into shadowy legend. This rendering of the play's text, edited and with an introduction by Laurence Avery, brings this pioneering work back into print.

"Under that Which may be last touched" Interesting phrase that holds the clue to the final spot..... DAY TOURS This is a unique, up-close look at our theatre, costume shop, scene shop and prop rooms which the general public rarely have the opportunity to see. Your tour starts at the Fort Raleigh National Historic Site Visitors Center (The Lindsay Warren Visitor Center) where a Park Service Ranger addresses the significance of Fort Raleigh for its historic preservation, archaeological treasures, and educational importance. Before you leave The Visitors Center, you will see a short video entitled “Roanoke: The Lost Colony”. After a short tour through the park leading to the Waterside Theatre, the Park Ranger will then turn your group over to a Lost Colony Guide for the remainder of your tour. Your guide will continue with a narrative about the historic significance of the “hallowed ground” of Fort Raleigh and answer questions about The Lost Colony production as well as the theatre, grounds, costumes, props, actors and characters from the show. EVENING TOURS Discover the magic of ‘backstage’ each evening prior to the show by being one of the first 50 people to purchase a $3 ticket for our backstage tour. The Costume Shop is the highlight of the tour as your group mingles among the many and varied actual costumes used in the drama each night. [glow=red,2,300]You will witness this area bustling with activity, as costumers, wardrobe personnel and stitchers are busy putting final touches on last minute garment changes.[/glow] As you move on to the scene shop and prop rooms you can see actors and technicians at work and watch as dancers warm up for the show. You will have the opportunity to see up-close stage combat and uncover the art of illusion. The tour begins promptly at 6:30pm at The Lost Colony Box Office and ends at 7:30pm. Groups wishing to attend the pre-performance tour must register and pay the $3 per person in advance of the attendance date and the group number will not be limited to 50. Cost of all tours is $3 per person RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED Contact The Lost Colony Marketing Department at (252) 473-2127, ext. 225 Large groups may be divided into two or three smaller groups at the discretion of the tour guide. -I wonder what ornates the outside of the Costume Shop? Could it be a replica of the found suit of armor?

I have placed all my Roanoke pictures in my Webshots account. Perhaps you guys can spot something I couldn't: hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/quantpsy/ One thing I noticed while uploading was that the bench in IMG_0813 (in the Elizabethan Garden) bears a pattern much like that on the knight's pectoral in Image 3:

This V vexes me more than any other. Two new thoughts: After circle and square ... We (or at least I) suspect that the Artist used shapes to represent numbers in Images 1 and 11 (number of sides). Why not, then, in the verse as well? "After circle and square" could mean "After 1 and 4" or "After 14." Could that be meaningful? I wonder if the education stops along the Hariot trail were once numbered. There are several signs along the way explaining points of history or Native American culture. In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig In other words, if you're standing at the casque site, you will see three things: (1) a path that goes to the beach, (2) the "wing," which we take to be the Wright Brothers Memorial, and (3) "that which may be last touched and first seen standing." Numbers 1 and 2 can be seen only from a limited number of spots in the area we've been considering. The most logical one is that lookout on the Hariot trail. It's remote enough for BP to bury something uninterrupted, and it's not in danger of immediate erosion. What could be "last touched or first seen standing" at that lookout? Well, this bench: If you read V11 to mean "Under the object that, upon standing up, is the first thing made visible and the last thing you touch," it's the bench. Thoughts?

hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/280688 ... 3633gIuNGM From your  Webshots: FB, How long has that "fallen tree" been lying next to the gazebo?  Driftwood?  I wonder if it was placed there by design.  Is it on the north side of gazebo and would you have to move it with dauntless and inconquerable determination to dig? I'm just thinking that they would have made things like the gazebo out of mica and driftwood back in those days.

It does not appear in photographs of the Gazebo right after its construction in April, 1981. It would have been placed there by design. There is lots of driftwood on that part of the beach, and it would have been a simple thing to lug that fine example up from the beach, which is mere yards away. I will point out that the gazebo could itself be what is last touched and first seen standing, if you squint real hard. It was being built right about the same time BP was burying flower pots all over the country (1981), is certainly standing, and if you look at the word "gazebo" you'll see that it is "first seen" ( gaze = see?).

An alternative interpretation of circle and square . If you examine the 1896 stone tablet at the head of the trail in Fort Raleigh, it reads: "On this site, in July-August, 1585 (O.S.), colonists, sent out from England by Sir Walter Raleigh, built a fort, called by them..." Wait, back up. "O.S."? What does that mean? Why not A.D. for anno domini ? I found out that O.S. stands for "Old Style," and was sometimes used to distinguish dates on the Julian calendar from those in the Gregorian calendar before the latter was universally adopted. But to BP, who might have been standing there wondering the same thing as he scribbled "use July-August in V11" in his notebook, "O.S." could be riddled as "circle and square."

Under that I take this to be X marks the spot, yeah?  I wouldn't think it's the gazebo itself.  Going back to 81' and BP's notebook, the use of the word "or" is odd.  Odd first because it doesn't belong there.  Second because maybe the two lines, if reversed would give it away. First seen standing now leave out the "or" and it's not standing anymore . May be last touched after burying the "flower pot" and on to the next locale never to return ! Another idea way outside the box.  Could BP have put it on top of his casque, with or without permission? It maybe just me, but if I lived down there, I'd be poking around the driftwood.  Hey, it's been 25 years!

DUDE! DIG UNDER THE BENCH, DIG UNDER THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude! I'm like, in Kansas right now. YOU dig!

Dude, ain't got no benches in Kansas?  Way too funny.

forest_blight wrote:: This V vexes me more than any other. . What could be "last touched or first seen standing" at that lookout? Well, this bench: If you read V11 to mean "Under the object that, upon standing up, is the first thing made visible and the last thing you touch," it's the bench. Thoughts? I'm with you.  When this locale first popped up on these boards some time ago, I liked it.  Liked it then, like it now.  It is indeed remote enough for BP to do his thing w/out nosey people wondering what the heck he was doing.....and... to me, it just LOOKS like a spot BP would choose. do we have a definite P for this V yet?  any of our non-committed P's have what looks like a bench in them?  I say, if anyone is close enough to this site, do some serious poking (if not digging) around this site.  Next person there should at least take several photos of the area looking in every direction. casque #3, here we come......

Fox, I am 100% sure that P3 is the proper one for this V. "The land by the window" being the outline of Roanoke Island beside the window in P3 nails it.

ahh, land by the window...cool tie in.  always thought this referred to something near the actual site, not in linking P with V.  Time to go over this image with a finer toothed comb and see if anything stands out.  All other P's have had either a famous building (both Cleveland & Chicago had one, as well as the Milwaukee City Hall) but where is this one?  Cleveland and Chicago also had very prominent as well as exact items depicted in the P that was at or on the path to the casque.  Does this P have anything "exact" from this site, the park this site is located or even the nearest city?  We have to find it....

In researching some ideas about V11, I discovered some intresting facts about the Loblolly Pine tree, which is found in abundance within the National Historic Site, as well as on Roanoke Island: The Loblolly Pine is a pioneer tree, meaning it is one of the first trees to grow in a field. FIRST SEEN STANDING The bark is thick,scaly, and dark grey:  It closely resembels the scaly art work of the pedestal, wall, and floor in P 3. hxxp://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLand ... y_pine.htm Perhaps the casque is buried under a Loblolly tree that MAY BE LAST TOUCHED as you leave the forest for the beach, whereupon you would have an unobstructed view of the "wing" to the north. Also, this would coincide with BP's penchant for burying the casques under or near trees, as is strongly suspected.

Like this one? That's a very good idea, Kato. I'll tuck that away.

Exactly so.  That particular tree is a very good candidate. On the edge of the forrest, and not quite on the beach.

I still think we need to find something concrete (not literally) to tie in the possible P with the locale. on another note however...and getting back to the P's somehow linking with one another....did you know that the 1st European to sail to the shores of NC (Cape Fear) was none other than Giovanni da Verrazzano....whom the Verrazano Narrows Bridge was named after...

Fox, the picture of Roanoke in P3 is concrete enough for me. Thematically, it's the English picture, and Roanoke is all about early English settlement (Lost Colony, Elizabethan Gardens). V11 is strongly tied to both Roanoke and P3, and P3 is strongly tied to Roanoke both thematically and via the outline of the island. It's a strong case. If you mean tying P3 to something proximal to the casque... well, there you have me. There must be something , but I don't know what it is, and it may be gone by now.

forest_blight wrote:: If you mean tying P3 to something proximal to the casque... well, there you have me. There must be something , but I don't know what it is, and it may be gone by now. That, my friend, is exactly what I mean.  Just look at the 2 casques that have been found...their pix contained exact replicas of things nearby. I too am feeling a bit

still mulling over the wording of this V: "To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing..." when worded this way...I again think of the bench which may have had driftwood underneath it when BP was around.  Also, last night I kept thinking over the "first seen standing" section of this V.  We may be taking this all wrong.  What if it isnt "what" that can be seen standing...ie.. a tree, pole, something-or-other, etc.. but what that can be seen when "you" stand from the bench?  Is that old gate leading to the beach visible from the bench.....or more importantly, visible only from a standing position by the bench? we just Have to find something on site which is depicted in the P!!!

What you see when you stand up from the bench is pretty much what you see when sitting down - the rail, the weeds, the ocean... The foliage may have been different in the early 1980s. The gate is not visible from the bench, even though it is not far away, off to the left (west) if you are looking seaward.

Ok, I'm sorta lost here, where the heck is the Thomas Harriot trail? From the WBM, we cross the Washington Baum bridge, then we go to the entrance of the Elizabethan Gardens, THEN WHAT? Help me out here, by the way my dad lives in Virginia Beach, 50 miles away from the casque, I am sending him a letter with the P and the V, and an explanation. I am trying to give him exact directions. Help

forest_blight wrote:: This V vexes me more than any other. Two new thoughts: After circle and square ... We (or at least I) suspect that the Artist used shapes to represent numbers in Images 1 and 11 (number of sides). Why not, then, in the verse as well? "After circle and square" could mean "After 1 and 4" or "After 14." Could that be meaningful? I wonder if the education stops along the Hariot trail were once numbered. There are several signs along the way explaining points of history or Native American culture. In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig In other words, if you're standing at the casque site, you will see three things: (1) a path that goes to the beach, (2) the "wing," which we take to be the Wright Brothers Memorial, and (3) "that which may be last touched and first seen standing." Numbers 1 and 2 can be seen only from a limited number of spots in the area we've been considering. The most logical one is that lookout on the Hariot trail. It's remote enough for BP to bury something uninterrupted, and it's not in danger of immediate erosion. What could be "last touched or first seen standing" at that lookout? Well, this bench: If you read V11 to mean "Under the object that, upon standing up, is the first thing made visible and the last thing you touch," it's the bench. Thoughts? I have your answer FB, well actually nodon has it, you asked if the Thomas Harriot trail was numbered, well it still is, check this out hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/s ... cret/9.jpg This would explain the AFTER CIRCLE AND SQUARE meaning 14, BOOM! nailed it.

Thanks for digging up that pic, reg. That photo is actually from the Elizabethan Gardens next-door to the woods where the Hariot Trail is found. According to a recent tourist map of the Gardens, 16 (from the photo) is the trail that leads to the Water Gate, and the Gazebo (17) is indeed off to the west of it. 14 is the stone "patio" just north of the fountain, and 15 (which would be after circle and square if that means 14) is the grassy area between that patio and the foliage separating the Gardens from the beach. Now I wonder if the points of interest in the Gardens were numbered 25 years ago. That's a pretty long time!

From over at Tweleve: Hello all!!! (night owl 2704) Just thought I would let everyone know that my daughter and a friend will be travelling to Manteo in search of this Casque this weekend.  After much research and thought and more research and thought I think that the Casque is under that marker.  I even spoke with a professor in Greensboro who is an expert in this area (The Lost Colony, Virginia Dare, the Thomas Hariot Trail, etc.) and he agrees with my findings.  He told me that the Hariot Trail was actually "opened" officially over 20 years ago.  About the same time as The Secret was published....keep fingers, toes, eyes crossed.  We need all the luck we can get.  They are leaving for the area tomorrow afternoon and will probably start hunting Saturday.  I'll keep everyone posted.  Let's hope for the best.  Vitta Back to top

I have a lead on the the first line. I have been looking for a verse to match up with Salt Lake City (Painting 11). Pass two friends of octave It seems we need something or someone that is two of eight (octave). There are a lot of statues and "landmarks" in Temple Square. In looking for something representing two of anything in Temple Square, I came across the following picture of statues of brothers Hyrum and Joseph Smith. On a hunch, I wondered if they were brothers in a family of eight children. But I never got that far. I came across a reference to both Hyrum and Joseph being two of the "Eight Witnesses", "who signed a statement stating that they had seen the golden plates which Joseph Smith, Jr. said was his source material for the Book of Mormon". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses

I strongly believe the match of Pass two friends of octave to Hyrum and Joseph Smith ("Two friend" matches to two brothers and octave matches to well known history group of eight witnesses) is the breakthrough for this verse!

This verse seems to follow a logical step by step travel from one spot to the final spot, similar to Verse 8 for Milwaukee. If we have a possible solve for the first line we can look for the step in the next line or lines. It seems to me that line two and three are connected. The second line of the verse: In December “December”, of course, does not likely mean the month December. That would be too simple. Thoughts I have so far are: 12 End or completion, maybe as in end of a life or a season Cold The third line of the verse: Ride the man of oz “Ride” seems like a good word for travel, move or walk. The story The Wonderful Wizard of Oz seems to have only four main characters that could be a “man of Oz”: The Wizard The Scarecrow The Cowardly Lion The Tin Woodman hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz So with these two lines together what are we looking for?

Sonoran wrote:: This verse seems to follow a logical step by step travel from one spot to the final spot, similar to Verse 8 for Milwaukee. If we have a possible solve for the first line we can look for the step in the next line or lines. It seems to me that line two and three are connected. The second line of the verse: In December “December”, of course, does not likely mean the month December. That would be too simple. Thoughts I have so far are: 12 End or completion, maybe as in end of a life or a season Cold The third line of the verse: Ride the man of oz “Ride” seems like a good word for travel, move or walk. The story The Wonderful Wizard of Oz seems to have only four main characters that could be a “man of Oz”: The Wizard The Scarecrow The Cowardly Lion The Tin Woodman The original story has a lot more characters than just these four. Not to mention the fact that the original "Man of Oz" could be L. Frank Baum himself, the author of all 14 of the Oz books, as well as The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus --notable for being a famous "December" character. So the Man of Oz might indeed be Santa Claus, Baum, TikTok (another prominent male Oz character) or the Nome King--or some other character in one of those numerous books. Or Santa  Claus . Here are synopses of all the Oz books: hxxp://www.halcyon.com/piglet/books1.htm There's another interesting fact: The original story, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, was set in Kansas, but Baum based it on drought-ridden South Dakota, where he was living at the time (in Aberdeen). If one is attempting to tie in this V to image 11, which can ALSO be tied to the Dakotas, then this might clinch that association. There might be a train, or route, or ferry, or other conveyance--even a sleigh?--that means "ride the man of oz," but I'm inclined to believe this means something different indeed. For one, the whole sentence reads: ride the man of oz To the land near the window First, "OZ" is not capitalized. That disturbs me. Why isn't it? If he's indeed talking about the land of Oz, then it would need to be capitalized as a proper noun. It's not, so that means maybe it doesn't mean a place. What else could it mean? Well--consider the 'legends' about how Baum's "Land of Oz" got its name: (a) that the author's filing cabinets were so marked--A-M and O-Z. (not true.)  Or that it means Ounce. (also not true). or that it was becasue of the fantasy and the exclamations from readers: "AAAHs" (also not true.)  What about OUR assigned relationships to "oz?"  the one that comes to mind is, of course, Australia. A man of oz might be an Australian. "Ride the Australian..." might make some sense in context. The "land near the window" puzzles me more. A conveyance might or might not have a window--cars or trains do, but boats have portholes and sleighs are open. A road or route has no windows.  This statement is very cryptic.  It seems to follow the theme of Santa Claus, however--if you take the meaning of "ride" as "follow along behind" as in "he rode my coattails."  And of course, in the very famous poem about St. Nicholas, the first glimpse of Santa that is seen is through the window that papa opens when the clatter arises on the lawn. Next, you have mention of a road--which would make the idea that 'ride the man of oz' meant follow a road or route--why say it two ways, when you don't need to? There's a road that leads to dark forest , is the next line, and that's once again referencing the Santa Claus legends--that St. Nicholas was a traveling monk, or priest, who wandered the dark forests of Holland or Germany from village to village bestowing gifts. then: where white is in color Snow is white. And Christmastime is the most colorful time of the year for one so obsessed with white! White is definitely "in color" in December at Christmas. The reference to July and August might also indicate that one would have to WAIT until those months, (when it was warm? When the tide went out far enough? when something wet dried up? when the SNOW melted?) to access the path to the casque. Perhaps that means it's up a mountainside or in a mountain pass where the snow might be too deep to access at other times of the year. That could mean in the Mountains, or in a wilderness area, or perhaps only during a time when tours were conducted. It might indicate a monument where one can only see something in a certain way during those months. My two cents worth anyway.

Sorry for any confusion this causes...but I posted a pic of what I thought was the castle on the box in Image 11, tying this image in with this verse. I was incorrect--the castle in question could not have been the one depicted, because it wasn't there until 1985, even though the rest of the park it's in was there from 1971. Sorry if you saw it. I've removed the pic and the posts.  oh well...back to the drawing board....

shecrab wrote:: The original story has a lot more characters than just these four. Not to mention the fact that the original "Man of Oz" could be L. Frank Baum himself, the author of all 14 of the Oz books, as well as The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus --notable for being a famous "December" character. shecrab wrote:: First, "OZ" is not capitalized. That disturbs me. Why isn't it? If he's indeed talking about the land of Oz, then it would need to be capitalized as a proper noun. shecrab wrote:: Next, you have mention of a road--which would make the idea that 'ride the man of oz' meant follow a road or route--why say it two ways, when you don't need to? Good point shecrab . I like adding the author L. Frank Baum to the possible "man of oz" list. It seems that the lesser known characters in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz should be  second choices in our matching efforts. But if we run into a wall later those characters seem like a good place to look. Very interesting. I never noticed the missing capitalization. I'm not sure what to make of it. I don't think it was a mistake though. The angle I take on this repeating of traveling references is that this is another travel verse (like Milwaukee). Start one place, move here, and then move here. So, as you may be eluding to, these should be separate events of movement.

This is an angle on Ride the man of oz line. These "Cowardly Lions" are on the sides of the Joseph Smith Building, a little ways from the " two friends of octave ". "Ride" I believe means travel or travel to. Since the row of lions continues around the building, this could connect us to the next stop/ verse line if we were to follow the lions. The next line is To the land near the window . I haven't looked into this yet. I'm not sure what is next to the Joseph Smith Building yet. I am having a difficult time getting my bearings in Temple Square. Good maps have been hard to find. If I find a good one, I'll post it. Is the window really a window? I doubt it. But maybe, this simply means the windows between the lions. The more I think about it the better lion windows fit.

I have had no success solving There's a road that leads to dark forest . But, if I may, I'll jump ahead in the verse a little. For " With two maps " Turtle found a great match while searching Flickr. I like this one alot. This is the Church Office Building in Temple Square. An interesting point on this building is there seems to be two world maps on two opposite sides of the building. One side is on the street and one side is toward the center of Temple Square. So we have a choice of sides to travel on. Close Up

I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What about the clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk? Doesn't the weight of the evidence overwhelmingly suggest North Carolina?

definitely FB, that shape in P3 is definitely Roanoke Island, which is the land near the window. We just need to figure out the last part of verse 11. -regulus

forest_blight wrote:: I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What about the clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk? Doesn't the weight of the evidence overwhelmingly suggest North Carolina? Good question and thanks for jumping in Forest . I think you are right; the verse lines are a clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. Verse 11: To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination The Kitty Hawk Memorial inscription: IN COMMEMORATION OF THE CONQUEST OF THE AIR BY THE BROTHERS WILBUR AND ORVILLE WRIGHT CONCEIVED BY GENIUS, ACHIEVED BY DAUNTLESS RESOLUTION AND UNCONQUERABLE FAITH Where I disagree is the use of these literary links. I think we have to be careful when using literary quotes for a location solve. As far as I know the literary references and quotes in the verses have not taken us to a location. If they have or if they ever do, will it be coincidence or a pattern (part of the formula) to rely on for solutions? I think we should at least play out this line of thinking to Salt Lake City, especially since this verse has stalled elsewhere. I am hoping we can take this verse to some kind of resolution, whether a dead end or a perfect match to Salt Lake City. Any help would be great! Let me review what we may have so far for a Salt Lake City solution. This verse seems to be a step-by-step traveling verse. Like Milwaukee it starts one place and leads to the final location. Pass two friends of octave Statues of Two brothers Hyrum and Joseph Smith are members of the “ Eight Witnesses” In December The brother’s life has passed as in “December of life”? Twelve of something (lions)? Ride the man of oz Walk to the lions on the side of the Joseph Smith Building. To the land near the window There is a sidewalk next to the windows between every two lions. There's a road that leads to Take the sidewalk either left or right? Probably left since that is where the world maps are. Dark forest Where white is in color Not sure what these lines mean. With two maps Two huge world maps are on the side of the Church Office Building After circle and square Those maps again? Both maps are circular as our planet and have prominent latitude and longitude lines creating square boxes throughout. In July and August Sounds hot. High sun. A path beckons To mica and driftwood This sounds suspiciously like “step on nature” and “over rock and soil” from Verse 8. Seems like a park reference. Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. The direction so far seems to lead toward Brigham Young Historic Park. I have no idea what to do with these final lines. Here is a picture of the Church Office Building (“two maps”) with Brigham Young Park in the background. Good Hunting. Sonoran

regulus wrote:: definitely FB, that shape in P3 is definitely Roanoke Island, which is the land near the window. We just need to figure out the last part of verse 11. -regulus I have no doubt you guys have nailed Painting 3 down to Roanoke Island. But for Verse 11, for now, I'd like to explore the merits of Salt Lake City. What do you think?

Unknown: I have no doubt you guys have nailed Painting 3 down to Roanoke Island. But for Verse 11, for now, I'd like to explore the merits of Salt lake City. What do you think? It is V11 that screams Roanoke -- clue after clue fit into place. The only solid link we have between P3 and Roanoke is because of that land near the window line in V11 . To my mind, the only thing pointing to Salt Lake City is that tenuous 112 in P11. But if you believe that, you have to toss out the clear 42 and 43 references in the image (her cuff and sash), because SLC is not between latitudes 42 and 43. It is between latitudes 40 and 41. And since when is there driftwood in Utah??

forest_blight wrote:: And since when is there driftwood in Utah?? Forest , I think this is in riddle form. Mica =rock Driftwood =soil or maybe trees Work with me here guys.

go ahead and try, but i'm stickin' to Roanoke for now, everything points to it, the whole P, and the whole V. Washington Baum Bridge, Baum, the dude who wrote Oz. yeah.

Unknown: And since when is there driftwood in Utah?? I have to review the Roanoke Island stuff, but I'm with you--I don't believe this fits SLC at ALL. The two brothers of eight children? These are BROTHERS--not "Friends" (of Octave.)  The 'man of oz' is not the Lion--he wasn't even a MAN. Especially when there are a lot of other MEN from OZ you can use! (He was only a man in the movie because it's really hard to find a talking lion.) The "land near the window" isn't a sidewalk near the window--it would be silly to call it that. Really. After circle and square--is probably referring to XXX circle and XXX square--as in Lafayette Square and Johns Circle...STREET or PLACE names. Not the latitude and longitude squares and the circular maps. Again---that is really reaching. This is probably the only thing I could say is true! There is driftwood in Utah. I've seen it.  But so what? There's driftwood everywhere.  Remember, the American Southwest used to be a great inland sea. There is not only driftwood, but shells, fossils, sea sand, and lots of other 'sea' items in the deserts. But Salt Lake City andTemple Square are not deserts. I really think this whole idea is waaaay off track.

I went back over the ideas first proposed for this V and it convinces me even more that the SLC idea is very very VERY far off.  The "dauntless/unconquerable" and the "dark forest" and the "friends of octave" all point directly at the Wright Brothers. The "land near the window" might be Roanoke Island, but it also might be something else-- but I cannot believe it ISN'T part of Image 3, which is the only image with a clear window besides Image 11, and which has many possibilities for "lands near" said window in all the oddly shaped cracks in the masonry. I spent a lot of time trying to find similiarities between the lat/longs I found in that image and lands they represented. (Incidentally, those numbers I found are:  41, 86, 48, 116, 95, 45, 91, 75, 74, 79 and 55.) The 'man of oz' could indeed mean Baum, but think about this as well: if this v is connected to I3, then the biggest clue may be right in front of our eyes: The Tin Man -- the suit of armor . Additionally, the arms on that armor are attached to the body by STRUTS--same thing that prop up airplane wings.  His arms are extended like WINGS--as if he was flying.  AND, the garnet, the jewel for that image is from ENGLAND. The chart in the book says that North Carolina is where those fair folk migrated to. As for the "last seen or first touched" thing, here's another interpretation, which, as far as I can tell, wasn't considered before: AN AIR STRIP. Last seen, when you look out the airplane window--your last glimpse of the ground you just left--and first touched, when you land. There is a 3000 foot "First Flight" airstrip at the WB memorial. Circle and square...are both drafting tools. The airplane the Brothers flew made the first complete circle ever made by a flying maching in the same area. (That was not the first flight--it was later on.) And the first airplane that flew was white--had white fabric wings... "where white is in color." (I don't think the v refers to White's watercolors.) As for mica and driftwood, that pretty much sums up the geography at the area--and for most of the upper eastern United States. Mica is prevalent in the Carolinas, northward to New England, and throughout the Great Lakes plains areas, and westward to the Ohio River valley, where the Hopewell indian tribes used it to make ornaments. In fact, in the entire USA, the biggest and ONLY mica production is done in this area. There is NO mica found in the west. Mica was and is used as a substitute for glass--to make greenhouse windows--"under mica and driftwood" might refer to a greenhouse, or other glass-roofed structure--tent, gazebo, etc. Too many connections not to be this area...just too many.

Sonoran wrote:: Where I disagree is the use of these literary links. I think we have to be careful when using literary quotes for a location solve. As far as I know the literary references and quotes in the verses have not taken us to a location. If they have or if they ever do, will it be coincidence or a pattern (part of the formula) to rely on for solutions? First, I agree that we need to be careful with the literary quotes.  I think we may be getting misguided with the fact that we have found some passages in very obscure books using tools that were not available in 1981.  The author is quoted as saying he thought the casques would be found fairly quickly.  I don't think he ever intended on us having to match up quotes from a book that would not have been widely available, unless there were hints or pointers leading us to that book.  However, this is not a literary quote.  It matches something that was etched on a monument, which brings me to... Second, go back and review the solutions for the two that have been found.  Verse 4 (Cleveland Solve) - Socrates, Pindar, Apelles -->  These names in the poem were found etched on a monument near the dig site and were used as part of the solve.  Verse 12 (Chicago Solve) - Where M and B are set in stone -->  If I remember right Mozart and Beethoven were found etched on a building near the dig site and used as part of the solve. With this being the case on solved casques, I don't think you can just dismiss the matching of lines from this verse with the Kitty Hawk monument.  I'd have to go back and look, but for the solved verses, I think the references were basically the starting point for which to journey to the dig site.  For this verse, it appears that the same holds true.

Very wise comments, 2fast.

Did I read a website wrong?  I thought I just saw that the Kitty Hawk monument was built in 2003.  Couldn't find info to verify on another site. Does anyone know?

Nono!!!  The big 60-foot monument (that holds the inscription) was erected on Kill Devil Hills dune long before 2003. As far as I could find, it was put up shortly after the Government stabilized the dune at Kill Devil Hills in 1927 --they had to keep the dune from migrating, and when they finally decided to do that, they also put up the monument. It was there in 1963 because that's when the airstrip was added to the site, and one of the buildings. There was a Centennial celebration in December 2003, to mark the 100th anniversary of the flight, and at that time a smaller OBELISK was erected, like the one that used to be there but was moved to Kitty Hawk. There was a newspaper article that talked about that celebration and the smaller monument. In fact, this large monument is visible for miles and miles--as the only thing 'standing' on the beach. Could this be the "first seen standing" thing? The big monument sits right on the dune...it would be fairly easy to dig around it. Here's the info from Dayton's library: hxxp://home.dayton.lib.oh.us/archives/w ... 20009.html Also...could this be "after circle and square" ?  The big circle is the circle around the big monument. Note that after the circle and the square, is the airstrip.

Unknown: In fact, this large monument is visible for miles and miles--as the only thing 'standing' on the beach. Could this be the "first seen standing" thing? I strongly believe the monument is the "wing" we are supposed to look north (from Roanoke) and see. It is visible from Roanoke - I've seen it. And I can verify that the monument has been there for a long time. My 4th-grade class took a field trip there in 1984.

regulus wrote:: I have your answer FB, well actually nodon has it, you asked if the Thomas Harriot trail was numbered, well it still is, check this out hxxp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/s ... cret/9.jpg This would explain the AFTER CIRCLE AND SQUARE meaning 14, BOOM! nailed it. i'm gonna rephrase the verse just for a sec... there is a place, with two maps after circle and square (this would be the place with the bench and posts and sign and view.) ok so we're here now,  where to now? In July and August A path beckons (there is a path). To mica and driftwood (to the beach) Under that (dig under that) Which may be last touched (which "MAY" be last touched by the sunrise) Or first seen standing (???) Look north at the wing (look north at the Wright Brothers Memorial) And dig (and get that casque!) so when it is phrased this way that means that we have to go somewhere from the bench/sign area.  This is not the end yet. thoughts?  we're pretty close to this one. i don't think that the marker is gone yet. -regulus

I had posted this on the V5 thread.  Haven't seen it here yet. (maybe I have) Trying to get out of Fort Raleigh and stay in Kitty Hawk for this one.  Hard to do.  But maybe the path that leads to Dark Forest is actually the Virginia Dare Trail which is Rte 12 that starts at the Wright Memorial Bridge and goes south, passing the two friends of octave and ends at the Washington Baum Bridge down by Whalebone.  The line ride the man of oz takes us to Manteo though.  Can anyone see otherwise?  Can we avoid going over that bridge and stay east with this verse?  We need a visual of that church-like window in image3.  Don't know if we'll find one at Fort Raleigh.  Shecrab, that last touched or first seen idea is pretty cool, what about the Standing bit though?

Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Under that which may be last touched might refer to the edge of an airstrip, or perhaps the END of an airstrip, at the place where the plane begins its run down the strip. There is usually a light or marker at that point. On the Kitty Hawk airstrip, there are four white granite stones marking the lengths of each of the first 4 flights. Under that which may be last touched, is the strip itself--note how grassy and easy to dig in it would be!! Or first seen standing--could refer to the first granite stone.  The first one seen standing. Turn north toward the "wing", the memorial, and DIG.

yes... try it! but what about the rest of the book, don't we have to be on roanoke island?  after all it IS the land near the window... maybe someone should post a rundown of the verse, of what we have so far. -regulus

Pass two friend of octave In December Speaking of the first few lines, as I just posted on the V3 thread, these lines have to be the most prominant of all the verses considering my post from above (11-22-07).  I'd like to explore that gazebo in the Elizabethan Gardens a little more.  The verse, I believe, takes us there line by line when you get to mica and driftwood .  I think the gazebo was constructed from such materials. Which maybe last touched or first seen standing will always sound like a fallen tree to me, or a knocked down tree (touched).  Like it was left there never to be moved again.

boogieman wrote:: Pass two friend of octave In December Speaking of the first few lines, as I just posted on the V3 thread, these lines have to be the most prominant of all the verses considering my post from above (11-22-07).  I'd like to explore that gazebo in the Elizabethan Gardens a little more.  The verse, I believe, takes us there line by line when you get to mica and driftwood .  I think the gazebo was constructed from such materials. Which maybe last touched or first seen standing will always sound like a fallen tree to me, or a knocked down tree (touched).  Like it was left there never to be moved again. The challenge in all of the verses is to know what to be taken verbatium and what to be taken symbolically  or as a synonym. MICA, I firmly believe, was used to represent sand. Driftwood, is what it is - scrap lumber. The verse references to summer hours of the long running play. I still firmly believe that the 'eyes on the gorund' should look at spots behind, around, the waterside theater stage.

boogieman wrote:: Not for nothing, but the Gazebo is made without nails.  EJ Bandfield's MY TROPIC ISLE talks about a structure built from mica and driftwood, tied together without nails. "Which may be last touched or first seen", haven't got a clue.  Definately look around the Gazebo though.  Good luck. This little tidbit (MY Tropical Isle) goes well with the Lost Colony.  I think I found it on the Project Gutenberg, which has alot of BP's things on there.  Another literary reference?  I forget where I read that the gazebo at the Gardens was built without nails.  That was 2 1/2 yrs ago. I'll have to search again.  Trohn, I believe that the verse could be using mica and driftwood symbolically or as a synonym for the gazebo.

boogie - there are nails at least in the flooring of the gazebo, and maybe the walls as well. I remember looking for nails when I was there, since the issue had recently come up before I visited.

Has anyone taken a mosey down the Freedmen's Colony trail and taken pics?  I understand it's entrance is marked near the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens and I've read that there is park at the end.  The First Light marker wasn't dedicated until 2001, but I'm wondering if there are any other statues, maps or references that might fit with our verse. Also wondering how many maps there are in the visitor's center and if any are numbered...thinking of the circle and square possibly meaning one and four or fourteen.

I might have it!!! Under that which may be last touched (by the sunset)  or first seen standing (in the morning, sunrise).  The flag!!! I don't know if it's an american flag, or a flag dedicated to the lost colony or what!  But the flag is lowered at night, unless illuminated, and it's the first thing standing in the morning! Sorry if this has already been mentioned... Anyone know of any flag poles there?

regulus wrote:: i'm gonna rephrase the verse just for a sec... there is a place, with two maps after circle and square (this would be the place with the bench and posts and sign and view.) ok so we're here now,  where to now? In July and August A path beckons (there is a path). To mica and driftwood (to the beach) Under that (dig under that) Which may be last touched (which "MAY" be last touched by the sunrise) Or first seen standing (???) Look north at the wing (look north at the Wright Brothers Memorial) And dig (and get that casque!) so when it is phrased this way that means that we have to go somewhere from the bench/sign area.  This is not the end yet. thoughts?  we're pretty close to this one. i don't think that the marker is gone yet. -regulus Is there a flagpole near here???

The flag idea is a good one, reg. I don't remember if there were flags in the Ft. Raleigh area, but there could have been. There probably were one or two at the visitors center.

Yes, that's nice thinking on the flag idea.  I can't recall seeing any in photos, except possibly above the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens I think, but will be keeping it in mind. I'd like to share a photo with you all and get your opinion but I've never done this before so please bear with me if I don't get it right.  It's a picture of a rather large sign on the Thomas Hariot Trail.  I can't tell where it is located, could be at the beginning or at the end but thought it might be a clue to the missing sign by the beach.  Maybe not, but here goes....

To all who have visited the site, I have a question. When you are standing at the Virginia Dare trailmarker what can you see from that spot around you?  Can you see the entrance to the Eliz. Gardens?  Anything at the Waterside Theater in the distance?  The headquarters building?  Really trying to think outside the box and wondering if just because a trail beckons does that mean we have to follow it?  What if we stood at the marker and looked for that which may be last touched or first seen?

ferrymaiden - where did you find that figure??? That sign no longer exists, but I would love to take a gander at the source of the figure. And that is a good idea about the Dare marker. I can't remember what is visible from that spot. It is right next to the visitor's center, if I remember. Ft. Raleigh is quite close to it, not too far behind it. Trouble is, you can't see the "wing" mentioned in the verse anywhere except from the beach, if we interpret it to mean the Wright Brothers memorial.

Have I found the missing Hariot sign????? Ooooooh, I really do hope so! Forest blight, I thought for sure you were going to come back with one of your own fabulous pictures and show us all this sign is still standing.  Are you our only pair of eyes out there?  I captured the image out of a pdf I found on the internet and saved to my computer a while back.  I didn't think of it til now. It's from an administrative history of the fort raleigh site done in 2003.  Honestly the only picture in it I thought was relevant to the hunt is this one.  These reports are rather boring but maybe you can find the doc again at the national park service site (nps.gov).  I think there was a photo of the visitor's center and the fort but there was nothing else about the Hariot Trail in it.  Trouble is, since it's from a pdf and such low resolution, I can't enlarge it to read it and that is disappointing. You make a good point about the wing.  Although I do think there is an excellent chance the casque is at the end of the Hariot Trail, since there is little else to confirm this for now and some great ideas coming from the gardens, I wanted to delve further into the other path inside the gardens that also beckons to the "gaze"bo and then the beach. To me the shape of the front gate entrance looks a little like the "belt" or bottom portion of the suit of armor in the illustration upside down.  If someone tells me I can stand at the marker and see the EG gates from that spot, then I think the poem will still make sense to pursue it this way.  Anyone else know more about what we can see from that marker?

Ferrymaiden:  From the DARE marker you can see the ruins of FT. Raleigh directly in front of you and slightly to your right.  You cannot see the Waterside Theatre because of the dense forest, but if you could it would be in front of you on your right, past the ruins of Ft. Raleigh.  You cannot see the Elizabethian Gardens either because of the trees, but from this point the Gardens are to the left and the entrance is perhaps 500 feet away and slightly behind you.  You also cannot see the entrance to the Hariot Trail, but you would come to it eventually after passing the ruins of Ft Raleigh on your right. As I and others have pointed out before, you cannot look north at the Wing unless you are clear of the forrest, and on or near the beach itself.  You cannot see the Wing from the Hariot Trail or from anywhere else inside the forrest.  You cannot see the Wing from the bench, even if you stand on it ( due to the dense foliage blocking your view).  Thus, as has been pointed out by Forrest Blight, you have to move toward the beach from the bench area to find whatever "may be last touched or first seen standing."  The path to the beach from the bench area is very short, perhaps only 15 feet.  I cannot account for what this area looked like in 1982, so perhaps you could see the Wing from the bench area back then.  But today you can't due to dense growth which runs right down to the beach.

ferrymaiden - My eyes are no longer out there, I'm afraid (I live in Kansas now). I seem to recall that you *could* see the Wing from the lookout on the Hariot Trail without going past the railing. You just had to squint and know where to look.

A park service ranger told me a couple of years ago: "There was once a very handsome dual post sign for the Thomas Harriot Nature Trail near the trail entrance. It seems to have been removed, perhaps due to rot." He also told me (now confirmed by this photo) that the trail was originally blazed in the 1960s. He was sort of young, so if he remembers the sign from personal experience, it would certainly have been there in 1981-ish. Clearly, we need to find out what that sign said.

The document doesn't appear to be online anymore, but I have my tricky ways and was able to unearth it. It's posted here , at least for awhile. According to the document, the Hariot Trail was created c. 1960. The name was suggested by Albert Bell. Incidentally, there are bells in P3.

That's the correct document, Forest blight.  Can you remind me what website it is on?  Are you having any better luck reading the sign?  I am hoping there is some magic technology someone can apply to the image.  So I guess this wasn't the sign at the beach afterall - bummer!  But it is great we know more about it now. Kato - I am eternally grateful for your description of the site! It really brought the place to life for me and has helped to rule out many distracting ideas.  I do agree that being able to see the "wing" on the wright monument is important. In fact, the line "look north at the wing" is the reason I do not believe the casque is buried directly under the bench on the Hariot trail.  That is such a small area to explore it seems to me.  If it were under the bench, wouldn't it be unlikely the author would feel it necessary to give this as an additional instruction whether we could see the wing from there or not?

The document is not in its former location. I found it at webarchive.org and simply reposted it at my own site, for us to use. The link is in my previous message. On a tangent... why "mica"? Sure, it might be a component of sand in some parts of the world, but is that really the first thing that leaps to mind when one is near a beach? Heck no! My current theory is that there was some sort of marker or plaque, similar to the ones talking about "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" in the Fountain of Youth Park. Maybe it was even mentioned in the 2-post sign? Can we ever know?

These are all great ideas everyone, and I think we are getting close in terms of the verse.  You can confidently follow the verse from its origin (The Wright Memorial) to Roanoke Island, to Ft. Raleigh National Historic site, to a "path that beckons" which may be the Hariot Trail itself, or the path from the Hariot Trail to Albermarle Sound.  The problem I am having is trying to reconcile Image 3 to fit these ideas in order to find the specific casque location.  The Chicago and Cleveland Images had specific landmarks or markers in their renderings that led to the casque sites.  Not so in Image 3.  I know Image 3 matches with verse 11 because of the map of Roanoke Island, the longitude and latitude, and the Elizabethian (English) theme.  But I cannot find specific markers or landmarks (so far) in Image 3 that verifies the location or area where the verse seems to lead.  There are a lot of trees out there , but little else.

This was my first confirmation the casque is on Roanoke Island.  Notice the road network in the map and how similar it is to the shape of the fairy.  Some might think it a stretch, but I'm sticking with it.  I began looking at the fairies this way when I noticed the fairy tendrils in the fort sumter pic also look like a distinct piece of the coastline there.  Some believe they have found the right location to dig there and it sounds incredibly convincing, but I don't think they've found a rendered confirmation like you are looking for, Kato, in that pic either.  I am also looking for this unmistakable sign and want it to be something obvious like the red skirt or the pillar.  Things that still haunt me:  the cross, the four leaf clover and the "S" on the suit of armor, the bubbles, the part of the wall that looks like a drawing of a mountain, and in the verse, the map (why is it mentioned before the marker?), the circle and square and the mica (thanks for bringing that up, forest blight).  Still researching and having great fun with this!  BTW, Kato, are you in that neck of the dark forest?  From your description it doesn't sound like it is very deciduous.

I have read that the TH trail "rolls through a maritime forest and emphasizes the natural riches found on the island that the English hoped to exploit for riches rather than adapt for survival."  Wasn't mica one of those important riches? Forest Blight, can you supply any more photos of the signs along the trail and/or their text?  It might help get me thinking.

My photographs of Roanoke can be found here: hxxp://travel.webshots.com/album/550878737WxeMst

Ferrymaiden:  Not From North Carolnia, but I have vacationed on the Outer Banks every summer for the past 12 years. I have been to Ft. Raleigh numerous times year after year in search of this elusive casque.  I have asked locals and National Park Service employees questions, have paid attention in great detail to the general area while looking for landmarks or markers,( from Image 3) and have followed the route from the Wright Memorial to the national Historic Site dozens of times in search of clues.  I have tested all my theories and have probed in places inside Ft. Raleigh where I concluded the casque might be.  No luck so far, but I intend to keep on trying.

Oh Geez, looks like this just got a little harder....the aftermath of another fire.  Thank god we can rely on members for photos!  FB, thanks for the link I am purusing them now. Here's what I found about mica: North Carolina is blessed with an abundance of granite.  You'll typically find quartz, feldspar, mica , and hornblende folded into it. If granite has the right physical properties, it can be cut into block and used for monuments. Guess which monument is made of this North Carolina glittery material? Yup!  It's the Wright Memorial!

I think that it just means the beach... he couldn't just say beach, so he said driftwood, but the mica part... I don't know.  So... once we cross the Baum bridge, what leads us to the Elizabethan Gardens?  The Road that leads to dark forest??? -regulus

reg - the "dark forest" reference is explained in the 3rd and 4th photos in the album linked to above.

Still love this as our site.  Can someone please oh please find out what was on the 2 posted sign if that was what was there?  I think that may just be our key ingredient needed...

fox, I've been trying. No one seems to remember. The intern who placed trail markers throughout the trail in the 1970s (Ken Johns) has such a common name that I couldn't track him down. I can't find photos, either. I'd give my right ar... well, maybe a pinky toe to find out what was on that sign.

Speaking of plaques...I've read that there is a plaque dedicated to Albert Bell located somewhere at the waterside theatre but have been unable to find any pics or details yet....Still getting familiar with the area with all of your help and now I need to know - are there any plaques on, at, or near the actual earthen fort itself?  In photos, I just keep seeing the same sign over and over asking folks not to climb on it.

FB, maybe you can find a message board of some sort for cities/towns around Ft. R, post the picture, and see if any locals can help identify it.

good plan!

Wait... making me do the work is a good plan?? I thought this was armchair treasure hunting! I drove all the way out to Roanoke Island to take pictures and got about 50 mosquito bites to show for it. Your turn!

Wow, 50 mosquito bites is worth a medal in my book - and a casque!  You've certainly earned it!  Maybe it was the skeeters that just carried the lost colony away one day... Forest Blight, I really enjoyed looking at your photos and it is thoughtful of you to share your detective work.  I can practically see myself walking down the trail and landing on the beach now thanks to your efforts.  I hope you were able to get a rough idea where those old trees were standing on the beach, they still seem like a good lead next time you go.  If I recall you were working with the gardeners there.  Is the rest of the park service staff working with you as well on this? Was really hoping to get a better idea from the photos where else to look but it seems almost anything stationary like the beach gate and garden statues have concrete pads beneath them not conducive to digging.  Mica makes me think of radio towers, I wonder if there are any in sight?  I'd sure like to have a contact with someone there at some point but I hesitate because I don't know who best to talk to over the phone to ask such zany questions about the site. FB, you were there in 2006, right?  I have a feeling some things have already changed since then.  Here are two photos of what looks like the interior of the earthworks.  One is from 2003 the other is 2007.  Looks like they took down signs?  I thought your image 0836 was of this sign at first, but it seems shorter. Kato, I'll bet you've seen alot of such changes over the years.

Forgot to add, it's entirely possible the sign is just around the corner in the bottom photo and it's just a perspective difference I'm seeing.  That's the difficulty of hunting this way.  It's also a good example of something I'd like to call and ask a regular contact, that and a zillion other things, so I don't mislead anyone.

ferrymaiden - what casque? I never found a casque! Hope springs eternal... I think the two photos you show were taken with the same perspective (see the trees in the distance?), and that the sign is missing in 2007. I don't remember if it was there in 2006, and I can't tell if that sign is the one I photographed. I did buddy up with a couple of park employees while I was there, but we didn't communicate afterwards. It was fun at the time - they got excited about the hunt, and showed me a secret way to the beach from the Gardens that (mostly) avoided gates, brambles, and fences. At Fort Raleigh, I spoke with the park ranger on duty (Rob Bollings of the NPS), but I doubt he remembers me. I also spoke with a lady at the Elizabethan Gardens who gave me some very skeptical "who is this nutcase" looks as she smiled and nodded.

Ha ha!  That is too funny FB - most of my friends and family already give me that look when I tell them what I'm doing.  I'm hoping to avoid it from total strangers.  I really admire your brass. I'm curious what protocol and channels everyone would follow for digging here given this is a state park?  Anyone know if the Elizabethan Gardens is privately owned?  What are the rules on that and does anyone think this might keep a casque from being buried there? If it's already been discussed, I'd appreciate a direction to the link, thanks!

Ferrymaiden: Believe it or not, Ft Raleigh National Historic Site hasn't changed that drastically during the years I have been visiting there. In fact very little. They groom the paths, and clean the parking lot, but it looks pretty much the same to me as it did 10 years ago.  Also, I hate to keep repeating this, but if the bench itself or the bench area is close to where the casque is buried, then why doesn't the bench appear as a marker or landmark in Image 3?  Especially if the casque is under the bench as some here theorize.

Kato - the bench is wooden. I think it unlikely that it has been there - exposed to the elements (including hurricanes and flying sand) - 27 years ago, yet completely unharmed.

Forest: You are right of course, the bench was probably not there in 1982.  Even if it were, I don't see how it could possibly be, " that which can be last touched or first seen standing."  The area in the immediate vicinity of the bench could be where the casque is buried, but again where are the markers in Image 3 that correspond to this area?

Unknown: Never trespass or hunt on private property without permission. Treasure hunting is strictly forbidden in certain areas, such as (but not limited to) National and State Parks, Monuments, Military installations, etc. If you are not absolutely certain of the legality, check before hunting! Is this true?  Or only in the case of metal detecting?  Why have the park employees who helped with the hunt at this site not mention this?

Totally true, You can't even letterbox in National parks or State parks, The official response to letterboxing ( www.letterboxing.org ) is to remove and destroy any letterboxes. Do not get caught doing any unauthorized digging in a national park. Its against the law to remove or even move any buried object without permission. if a casque was in a national park, even if you knew right where it was, the amount of red tape required to get permission to dig it up would make it impossible to get.

So finding the casque here is going to be impossible?  I had no idea.

I disagree that it is impossible. You just have to build a relationship with the park administration and they are usually happy to help out if you promise not to mar the landscape, and ask them to be present at the dig. From their point of view, BP illegally buried nonbiodegradable garbage on park property, and you'd be helping them locate and remove it.

Forest Blight, that is very encouraging.  Thank you for that perspective.  I wouldn't want to do anything illegal or harmful to the site and that is a very good idea about asking a staff member to be present.  I do hope you will get to go back and dig again soon. BTW, I feel pretty confident that the sign in your photo album is indeed the sign I was questioning as missing earlier at the earthworks.  I didn't realize it is called "Lane's fort".

You would think... That does make sense logically. but bureaucratically, it wouldn't happen. The  thought process would be if it is there then leave it. searching for it would cause damage. Leaving it there will cause none. What happens if you are injured, while performing a completely illegal act (digging in a state/national park) that some ranger gave you the ok to do. there is not a ranger who would go out on that limb. You will find the answer to a request like that is a blanket and uniform no. If you found something of tangible or intangible value  buried in a state or national park, it belongs to the state or federal government, and you would not be able to get permission to remove it from the park, While a state park could be different from state to state, In California, they would be as strict as in a national park, and in a national park they are governed by federal laws, and they don't allow any leeway. I live near the American River. The american river riverbed is federal property.  A local artist created, little porcelain sculptures and placed them in the river. - hundreds of them. people started finding them and taking them home. - a lot of people knew they were an "art" project. but some people didnt, One guy went down to the river and collected about 100 of them and took them back to his shop and put them on display. the newspaper wrote it up highlighting the "mystery" of where they came from. The paper mentioned the possibility they were old, The next day the FBI visited this guys shop, arrested him and confiscated all the pieces. When it turned out that they pieces were all less then 6 months old, everybody thought the issue would go away and the guy would get off. Turns out the law they arrested him on makes no difference between old/new/valuable or not. Simply the act of removing something from federal property was the issue. He ended up not gettting any of them back and having to pay a fine. I think the artist got "warning" about littering. If one of these is in a national park, I seriously suggest leaving that one...

That's a very interesting story.  But don't treasure hunts often lead the public to state/federal parks?  Tokens in A Treasure's Trove were found in state parks and national forests (and publicized) But because those were found in knotholes in trees above the ground, I assumed that it was only digging that might be a problem, not removing...hmmmm

I truly think you will have to go on a case-by-case here. Not all Federal lands are off-limits to such activities. We have an entire river valley in my state that is Federal park land, but you can do quite a number of things you might not be able to do at, say, the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone. It depends on whether the ecology would be damaged, not on a blanket Federal prohibition. For instance, in Utah's Arches National Park one is not even allowed to WALK on the land, lest it disturb the desert's "Biological Soil Crust." In our federal park nearby, there wouldn't be anyone to stop you if you wanted to dig a hole or bury a puzzle piece. It's simply not patrolled except near the tourist stops. It would be extremely easy to bury almost anything there--even something relatively large.

That is true, rules differ. there is a park in tennesse or georgia or arkansas... where you are encouraged to dig for diamonds, and take home what you find Not sure if it is state or federal though feel free to ask and prove me wrong...

State park. Arkansas. hxxp://www.craterofdiamondsstatepark.com/

I've always thought it would be fun to go to a dig for diamonds site. Anyone know if the official rules are posted anywhere?

here is the nps website of the Administrative History if you want to take it off of your personal site hxxp://www.nps.gov/archive/fora/pdf/fora_ah.pdf

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  I was wondering if the official rules of The Secret have been put on this forum anywhere along with all the other scans.  I haven't got the book and would like to read those too.

Here they are: hxxp://kspot.org/trove/rules.jpg

Well, it's been a few days and in that time I have flown to NC on unrelated business.  I was able to make an impromptu trip out to Roanoke Island, a 5 hour drive each way from where I'm staying but worth it just to see the site first-hand.  Unfortunately, I only had less than 2 hours at the EG the first evening and the same at the Thomas Hariot Trail the next morning. Shecrab you were right.  Just so happens there was an official archeological dig taped off along the Thomas Hariot trail when I arrived and on a nearby tree a warning was posted and it states very clearly that no unauthorized excavation or disturbances of the property of any kind are allowed at Fort Raleigh under penalty of a $10,000 fine or up to a year in jail.  Sorry to all I did not have a camera so I can't provide a photo but believe me it was very clearly spelled out.  I guess the question remains...is the beach a part of the national park?  I don't know what the rules are for beaches in NC. I probably won't make it back to this site and don't think the risk is worth it to me now anyway.  But I had a great time and for those who are still interested in seeing it for themselves, I can report that there was virtually no one at the gardens near their closing time and no one on the beach early morning before the gardens opened but later it got pretty crowded.  The beach is very nice and I did find little pieces of granite (mica?) at the waterside theatre site.  And the water line along the beach is made of a striking black sand.  Perhaps this is a reference to mica as well.  And as Forest Blight has already warned - Bring Your Bug Spray!

oh ferrymaiden, no camera! still, you've seen the sights everyone has talked about, so maybe something different will come to you, some idea we haven't heard before. i'm sorry your trip was disappointing, the warnings and all. i admire your adventurous spirit!  and thank you for telling us!

I'm excited to be able to contribute here.  If anyone else is in the area, please go and snap a photo of the dig and the sign and post it for us.  You can't miss it.  It's on the TH trail and it's a very large square hole surrounded by yellow tape.  The notice is on a tree next to it.  That is the only new photo I think I could have added to the great ones already shared here and the only thing I am disappointed about. This was my first attempt to a real site for the purpose of treasure hunting and it was very exciting for me, especially that feeling that I already knew the area and where I was going thanks to everyone's photos.  You were all truly there with me in spirit. The best thing about that is I had very little time to look and knowing the area in advance helped me save alot of time I would otherwise have spent on maps and such just to orient myself.  Instead I was saying, "Oh, there's that statue...and there's that bench!"  The place seemed smaller to me than on the maps I've seen also. I didn't see anything physically new that hasn't already been discussed but the experience was still informative.  Having gone through the gardens myself, it occured to me that if BP buried his treasure today, he would have needed a large shovel and it would have been very difficult to get one into the gardens because you have to pass through the small gift shop to get in and out, it is only open during the day, and there is barbed wire on the chain link fence around the site.  If he buried it within the gardens, he probably would have had to bring the shovel in to the beach area and toss it over the fence, then go back around through the gardens to retrieve it.  At night I don't see how he could have done it so that isn't a very strong case for me that it is buried in the gardens.  But I do see it would be possible to dig at night outside the gardens. If only I hadn't seen that darned notice posted.... Thanks to all of you who have made this such a rich experience!

Perhaps this post above from ferrymaiden will give Bigmattyh an idea of why we keep at this hunt. wilhouse

I am vacationing to Washington DC in one week.  I am planning on taking a trip to Roanoke Island, right now the chance of that is about 90%.  So, if i do go, what should I look for?  I'll take pictures of everything of course. All I know is, I have to pass the WBM, and cross the Baum bridge into Roanoke Island, then do I head straight for the northern coast??? Could someone post a walkthrough of the verse to where we end up?  I'll try out my flagpole/flag theory. Thanks! -regulus

regulus i cant help you with the walk trough, but here is an older version ,of the layout of the park i think early 90s. from stuff i have read, the history folks have only, messed with the fort and they dug in the north end. if i was a betting person, i would think on the trail to the garden. maybe the last marker before the garden. seems i read someplace those are the same. sorry i cant be more helpful

Just a quick question. Does anyone live close to Salt Lake City or have any plan on being in the area in the future?

Pass two friends of octave -pass the WBM In December - they flew in december Ride the man of oz - cross the Washington Baum bridge To the land near the window - To Roanoke Island There's a road that leads to Dark forest - There is a road that leads to the Elizabethan Gardens Where white is in color - there are water color paintings??? With two maps - that area with the bench that has the sign with two maps on it??? After circle and square - 14?  1 and 4??? actual circles and squares??? In July and August - That's when they landed??? there was a sign saying this??? A path beckons - To mica and driftwood - Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing - Underneath a flagpole??? Look north at the wing - The WBM is visible And dig - DIG!!! To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. - confirmer HELP!!!!

Yes reg - that's the theory. The only significant stumbling blocks are "circle and square" and the final "dig" location. "Where white is in color" = John White was a Roanoke colonist whose maps and paintings are found everywhere in the park area. "In July and August" = stated on the first line of the 1896 Virginia Dare marker.

just so i know i'm clear on where to go... I take highway 158 to 64 (virginia dare trail S) (which is also the washington baum bridge???) then make a right onto S US Highway 64(now on the island). here is the part that confuses me, take a right onto National Park Dr.?  Then what?  Is that the "road that leads to dark forest(the elizabethan gardens)? i'm leaving on Wednesday!  Early morning, so could someone post by tomorrow!? -regulus

Yes, reg - your directions are correct so far as we know. I would guess the road that leads to "dark forest" is 64 itself. The Gardens and the Ft. Raleigh Park are immediately adjacent, so you can park at either one (for free) and simply walk a few minutes to the other. Take a camera and a copy of The Secret , coat yourself head to toe in insect repellant, and have fun!

great! thanks!  however, i don't have a copy of "The Secret" i just have copies of the Verses and Images.  Which should be sufficient, unless there are clues in the story???

You may want to stay a few more days and talk to some of the historians there. They may be helpful in confirming the location of the image and the verse that goes to it. If we get a definat verse match and general area of this image the Canadian image is definately Image 11 and the city is Quebec City, Toronto or Sault Ste Marie

as far as we know reg...the rest of the book is simply fluff.  There were a couple of things that raised some eyebrows but I believe the majority here feels that the P/V is all that is needed. Have a great time and take LOTS of pix.  As we always say to the fortunate soul treading ground perhaps holding a casque, "You never know what you did not see but one of us picked out in your pictures." dang, did that make any sense?  Just take lots of pix and have a blast.

regulus, long long time ago, i saw a map of the gardens and i remember a circle and square in that map, don't have time to look now for that certain map, maybe someone has it already. i am still hooked on the lost colony part because of chief wingina in the picture. good luck and have fun!

slappybuns wrote:: regulus, long long time ago, i saw a map of the gardens and i remember a circle and square in that map, don't have time to look now for that certain map, maybe someone has it already. i am still hooked on the lost colony part because of chief wingina in the picture. good luck and have fun! On the map, posted of the area, the circle and the square were the two parking lots - adjacent to the Theater Box Office.

and please poke right behind this: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461741232/ because the shape reminds me of the belt

Trohn wrote:: On the map, posted of the area, the circle and the square were the two parking lots - adjacent to the Theater Box Office. (Trohn) and please poke right behind this: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461741232/ because the shape reminds me of the belt (slappy) Might want to look for a path that beckons to the beach behind the theater.  Something on the path may be last touched or first seen standing.  Know which way is north so you can find the wing.

There was some question earlier about the sign on p. 62 (document p. 81) of this publication . The photo was taken in June, 1963, and thus might have been there in 1981. I was dying to know if the sign mentioned "mica and driftwood" (if it did, I would be basking in your communal adulation right now). So I did some digging, of the non-shovel variety. So far as I'm able to determine, the sign says this: THOMAS HARIOT TRAIL This trail honors a naturalist with Lane's colony. It leads by gentle grades among wooded dunes to the sound shore before returning to this path. Walking takes 15 min- utes, but you can enjoy an hour spent here. You can learn more of the colonists' history and iden- tify plants they found and used as described by Hariot in his Briefe and True report .

I'm going to throw my 2-cents worth in here for a moment. It has to do with Mica. Mica is not Sand. Sand is largely silica. I am not saying that mica can't be a small component of the beach sand around this area, but geologically, they aren't the same.  I have had a problem with mica being used to represent sand (or sandy soil) ever since it was first mentioned here. Truthfully, I can't take issue with mica being a part of this state location --but not in the manner that it must represent the BEACH or the SAND. As a point of fact, North Carolina is one of the country's leading producers of mica--but this is mined in the mica mines in the mountainous regions of the state--and not on the beach nor on Roanoke Island. The mica mines are far inland. I don't know why, then, there would be any mention of mica on the Hariot trail sign.

Its been ages since I have been to the area, kitty hawk, nags head etc.,, but I seem to remember the the inland side of the islands (not the ocean side) the sand in the beaches had tons of mica flecks... little shiny squarish flat specs. but I havent ever been to roanoke so I dont know for sure...

Unknown: I don't know why, then, there would be any mention of mica on the Hariot trail sign. I don't know either, shecrab, but wouldn't it have been a coup if it had mentioned mica? Or someone named Mica, or an organization whose initials were M.I.C.A., or something ? Still, your point is a good one. Driftwood I can understand. You have only to walk to the beach and you see it everywhere - not just the usual wood and garbage that washes up on any shore, but honest-to-goodness driftwood - old conifer logs of the sort that artists like to gather and use. The real deal. But mica? This is truly a mystery. Mica was all over the place where I grew up (foothills of the NC mountains), but sheets of transparent rock aren't exactly common on the coast. I can see BP mentioning mica as a cagey hint about beach sand (mica is a component of ocean sand, but not a prominent one). But once he says "driftwood" he's given up all pretense at cageyness and inserted a direct reference to the beach.

I will probably be slammed for this as fitting the solution to meet the clues, but keep in mind this was versed in 1980-something.....  low tech times (by today's standards) I did think, and still think, it is possible that Mica is another word for sand in the context used. But consider that BP wants to lead us not to a general area, but a specific area.  Mica and driftwood. Mica is a large component in electronics - compacitors, wiring, etc.. Once at the Path to the Dark Forrest, the only electronics in a short distance is the innner workings of the stage and the theater - wiring, hydrollics, sound board, etc... Instead of sand, mica was used to represent 'high-tech' (maybe) Walk to behind the stage (or to the operational off-stage area)

Although I can't refute the uses of mica in electronics, it isn't something that's exactly common knowledge, either. I don't think when one says "Mica" one immediately thinks about electronics. That's just an added bonus. So I'm kinda iffy on this one. I liked the idea of maybe "mica" being something other than the mineral---maybe initials, a name, etc.....

Here is the sign (photo taken June, 1963), for anyone who's interested...

No Mica, OR driftwood. Hmmm.

My own The word "mica" is thought to be derived from the Latin word micare, to glitter.  Could Mica just be referring to the glittering ocean itself?

i found this about regents park and primrose hill which could refer to queen elizabeth (the statue) because of it (regents park)  being a Royal Park: "Fed, a visiting American academic, is 'walking along the Regent's Canal above Camden Lock on a glowing June day', preoccupied with thoughts of Rosemary. Another American visitor, Vinnie, has rented a flat in Regent's Park Road and visits the Zoo. 'An early-afternoon shower has sluiced the dust from the still-shiny leaves and the mica-flecked paths, and has lent the air a scented freshness.' Seated on a bench and musing on her life, she too becomes preoccupied with thoughts of her lover (p.205-215)." MCCAFFERTY, REGIS okay probably, nothing......just throwing it in the pot and this: "Albert "Skipper" Bell began clearing and doing preliminary work on the site." just added that for the bells in the image regulus have you gone yet?  can't wait to hear from you!

i'm back!  and I have a story!  I'll tell it tomorrow, i gotta go to bed, it's about midnight my time. I didn't find the casque, but I found the location where it was, or still is!

lol, i could strangle you regulus!!  my chances alone at the computer are few and fleeting nowadays! and to wake up to this cliffhanger! aaaarggghhh  i hate waiting!! can't wait to hear everything!

hope you have some serious pictures to confirm your idea. lets see some more exact matches like we did in cleveland and chicago. i cant wait to hear your story! looks like tossing and turning all night for me too. argh

not sure how long I can do this.........

I give up.........

I feal the same way about STL but if he has something concrete that ties image 3 to the roanoke island area it will help alot. I will update the omage verse match thread soon to show how it is all likely to fit together. I am sorry to say though if he has somethung definate it basicly eliminates Boston.

regulus, did i miss your post?  please, tell us what you found! i can't wait to hear your story! please!!!!!

regulus wrote:: i'm back!  and I have a story!  I'll tell it tomorrow, i gotta go to bed, it's about midnight my time. I didn't find the casque, but I found the location where it was, or still is! He must have been really tired as it has been a week now. I remember that regulus did this to us once before when he claimed to have found the Milwaukee casque and then later said he was only joking.  I'm detecting a pattern here, he promises something and then doesn't deliver.  But even so I am still anxiously awaiting his story.........whatever it turns out to be.

digger, I already said that I "did not" find a casque in Roanoke.  I am a procrastinating 17 year old.  I went there, followed the verse and came up with a different location than the previous hunters. I believe the casque to be buried underneath the stone bench... I didn't take a picture of the bench, but someone here has.  The white stone bench, which is after circle and square (if we let that mean the sunken garden) if you follow the numbered marker in order.  Under that which may be last touched or first seen standing, could mean... under your butt (which is last touched if you stand up), or first seen standing.  When you first see the bench, you are standing.  The bench is first seen standing.  So under your butt OR under the bench.  Plus, the statue in the P, has its arms outstretched to represent flying, but its wrists are bent down as if it is resting on a bench.  Plus the stomach of the statue matches the symbol on the bench... and in the P, the jewel is underneath the symbol... so I dug down 20 inches underneath the center of the bench, but couldn't go any farther. The path that beckons to the beach, the verse says that there is a path that beckons, but it never says to go down it.  You can see the wing from the bench if it was in December, like the Verse says, in December ride the man of oz.  Even in the winter, the digging would be easy, because it is just sand under the bench. I really think that it's there!!! Sorry for the wait!!! -regulus

Thats it?  That is what we have been waiting a week for?  Forest Blight has submitted this possible solution several times over the past several months.  I myself, on May 28, 2008, said that I agreed with Blight on this location.  Or, is this even the bench you are referring to since it does not appear to be stone?  I do not recall any other pics of any other benches posted here...even if there were, why not take pics of your visit?  Would love to see this "symbol" on the bench matching the P.  Would love to see the area around this stone bench.  I'm just not too sure about this visit of yours.  I think pretty much everyone on these boards who has searched/dug at a possible location has submitted photos of their adventure, yet you didn't think to photograph the bench you dug under because you 'thought' it had already been posted?  This just doesn't seem to add up to me..... You are a "procrastinating 17 year old" who is able to travel to 2 cities that are 817 miles apart from each other on a whim to search for a possible location of a worthless treasure?  Man, I would love to meet your folks.  I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to believe this.  If I am wrong, I will gladly step aside and eat my hat....

i have seen the pictures of the bench on here, but i hadn't realized it was stone.  i do like the riddle part of "under that which may be last touched" , being your butt, lol. i don't remember anyone saying the bench had that symbol. could the cask have sunk lower than 2 or 3 feet?

He may be referring to this bench in the Elizabethan Gardens: hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/2965555820091493633WTiAea?vhost=travel ...which, as I've mentioned, does have a symbol from the armor on it. I like the butt interpretation reg - clever.

slappybuns wrote:: i have seen the pictures of the bench on here, but i hadn't realized it was stone.  i do like the riddle part of "under that which may be last touched" , being your butt, lol. i don't remember anyone saying the bench had that symbol. could the cask have sunk lower than 2 or 3 feet? my guess is it is buried behind as was the cleveland casque. its much easier to dig behind (then under a stone bench) the newly turned earth would be less noticeable. The symbols is a clincher for me as the two found ones had an image in the painting that you could reach out and touch from the site of the casque. Fox, dont be too hard on him, the first time I went to Goldengate park to dig, I forgot my book, broke my camera and didnt even come close and the people I was supposed to meet didnt show and I only had 15minutes available to dig before I had to leave. - very frustrating.... When traveling with family you are at the mercy(whim) of other peoples schedules, they try to humor you, but it only works for so long.... I really think he's on to it here. I missed the symbol on the bench too. whether he went or not (im sure he did) I think he's gotten closer to a casque then I have. Remember even the guys in Chicago, knew where to dig before digging and almost missed it. last touched and first seen on a bench would be the back of the bench, you see the back of the bench as you approach it. when standing you put your hand on the back of the bench to help yourself up (at least those of us with bad knees....)

maltedfalcon wrote:: Fox, dont be too hard on him, the first time I went to Goldengate park to dig, I forgot my book, broke my camera and didnt even come close and the people I was supposed to meet didnt show and I only had 15minutes available to dig before I had to leave. - very frustrating.... When traveling with family you are at the mercy(whim) of other peoples schedules, they try to humor you, but it only works for so long.... Yes, I get what you are saying.  My apologies Reg... [me sheepishly stepping aside] I forgot all about this bench and yes, I too think that he is onto something here.  Where in the park is this bench?  Can the "wing" be seen from here like the other bench close to the beach?  If so...lets dig all around this thing.

Here is another stone bench in the gardens... Looks like they may be all over the place.  I wonder if this one has any of our symbols on it as well.  This one is also backed right up to a nice area of plantlife, ideal for cover while digging a hole

yes, it is covered by many plants

Reg:  Are you saying that you can only search and find the casque in December because thats when you can see the Wing from the bench?  Have you visited the site in December to verify this? I doubt that this casque or any other was only ment to be discovered during a tiny window of the year.  Personally, I think the reference to December in the verse ties in nicely with the Wright Brothers flight on December 17, 1903. Does anybody know positively that you can see the Wing from the bench in December?  I know for a fact that you CANNOT see the Wing from the bench during the summer months.

My memory is already hazy, but I don't think it's possible even to see the water from where that bench is, much less the memorial. Even when you're right at the beach, you really have to squint and know where to look.

true, it would be very ridiculous if you had to dig in a certain season.  However, it just says gaze north... yes at the wing, i think that it's just telling us that you need to be south of the wing... and it's just a confirmer.  Now, if I knew that I should have dug in back of the bench!!! Darn! By the way, I didn't go to DC just for Roanoke Island, Roanoke wasn't even the main reason... it was just a side trip.  I went to DC to see the sights, monuments, and history... ever since I saw the movie, National Treasure, I've wanted to go there. -regulus

i'm pretty sure that there is only one bench of the kind I'm speaking of.  There are multiple stone benches, but not multiple stone benches with a backrest with a symbol on it.  Which matches the bottom half of the symbol on the Armor's chest.  With the jewel right underneath it, symbolizing that the jewel is under the symbol.

regulus wrote:: I went to DC to see the sights, monuments, and history... ever since I saw the movie, National Treasure, I've wanted to go there. -regulus I've heard unsubstantiated reports that the Declaration of Independence is missing....oh my, you didn't.......... Meet me in Boston, I know where the occular device is hidden.

oops, of course the device is in Philly....my mind is still sold on a casque being in Beantown...

regulus wrote:: i'm pretty sure that there is only one bench of the kind I'm speaking of.  There are multiple stone benches, but not multiple stone benches with a backrest with a symbol on it.  Which matches the bottom half of the symbol on the Armor's chest.  With the jewel right underneath it, symbolizing that the jewel is under the symbol. not sure maybe this is what your talking about

the stone symbol is the one on the bench, yes... but the one on the armor, no.  Lower, the armor's abdomen, contains the bottom half of the symbol.

regulus are you going back?

no, the reason I was able to make a trip there was because I was visiting relatives in DC, and seeing the sites.  I don't know of any parents that would drive their son 1,000 miles to Roanoke to look for a treasure with no cash value.  Which is not the way I see it, it's just the way someone who isn't as intrigued by Mr. Preiss' work may see it.  The treasure, to me, has much value! Look's like someone else is going to have to dig this one up!!! Also, didn't BP also write comedies???  that might give some support to the "under your butt" theory. -regulus

regulus wrote:: no, the reason I was able to make a trip there was because I was visiting relatives in DC, and seeing the sites.  I don't know of any parents that would drive their son 1,000 miles to Roanoke to look for a treasure with no cash value.  Which is not the way I see it, it's just the way someone who isn't as intrigued by Mr. Preiss' work may see it. directed to me? Not as intrigued by BP's work..??..  I was the one who got this whole ball of wax rolling again after many years of intrigue.  I started these threads and I am the one who is always saying "Who cares if there is no treasure...we just want to crack this 20+ year old hunt".

link to trip post hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=971.210 and it makes for what ever not sure. would like to see more pics if you have them thanks

NO!! no! i just meant some random person!  Not you Fox!!!  I look up to you and everyone here! you're the ones who narrowed all the cities down! I'm just here to help finish the job!

slappybuns wrote:: i think: V11 Pass two friends of octave In December                                            ......................is NC 12 This makes great sense, NC 12 or the Virginia Dare Highway ( a reference to Roanoke) starts just before Kitty hawk and passes by the Wright brothers memorial (2 friends of Octave December = 12. A problem with the man of oz, is the Ferry with the Name Baum wasnt put into serviice until 1992... leaving the bridge as an option... if this verse theory is going to work out...

According to wikipedia and NCDOT, Baum's ferry system was in operation before 1947: "In 1947, the Commission purchased the ferry operations of T.A. Baum, who operated a route that ran across Croatan Sound and linked Manns Harbor and Roanoke Island. This became the first route of the N.C. Ferry System." On the other hand... "The Thomas A. Baum was built at the Steiner Shipyards in Bayou La Batre, AL and was delivered to the North Carolina Department of Transportation on June 13, 1995 . It is powered by two Detroit Diesel 12V71 DDECs each rated at 500 HP." Still, it's a good point. At issue is whether there was any visible reason to connect the name "Baum" to the ferry between the years 1947 and 1995, specifically c. 1981. I have e-mailed a couple of people knowledgeable about Roanoke's recent history to find out. I'll let you know if I find out anything.

there is still the  washington baum bridge, it was built in 1928.........i know, doesn't quite fit the word "ride", unless he means ride in a car, lol " new infrastructure tied the island to other areas, Roanoke Island became less remote. In 1928 the Washington Baum Bridge was completed, linking Roanoke Island to the Outer Banks beaches. Two years later the Wright Memorial Bridge was constructed to tie those beaches to Currituck from the north. New roads were built from Elizabeth City and Manteo, and as the automobile became more popular, boat usage declined somewhat. Today around 4,145 residents make their home on Roanoke Island." hxxp://www.insiders.com/outerbanks/main-overviews5.htm

maltedfalcon wrote:: This makes great sense, NC 12 or the Virginia Dare Highway ( a reference to Roanoke) starts just before Kitty hawk and passes by the Wright brothers memorial (2 friends of Octave December = 12. feeling a little slow here today.  I understand the 'December' part equals 12...but could you please explain how '2 friends of octave' equals NC?   D:)

"Pass two friends of octave / In December " means "Pass the Wright Brothers Memorial / on NC Route 12 ."

boogieman wrote:: I had posted this on the V5 thread.  Haven't seen it here yet. (maybe I have) Trying to get out of Fort Raleigh and stay in Kitty Hawk for this one.  Hard to do.  But maybe the path that leads to Dark Forest is actually the Virginia Dare Trail which is Rte 12 that starts at the Wright Memorial Bridge and goes south, passing the two friends of octave and ends at the Washington Baum Bridge down by Whalebone. I took this sign to be December . Anyway, has anyone noticed that the entrance to Fort raliegh has a circle driveway and a square parking lot.  just to the right of that on the map is Dare Ave.  Along that road is John White Blvd.  At the end of Dare Ave and beyond the square parking lot is the beach, facing north.  Wondering if any of you ventured down that path yet? (path to mica and driftwood?) I am assuming that the sign with July and August would be in the circle area of the entrance.  Correct? hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&i ... 6&t=h&z=17

boogie - I remember the marker being located about where the yellow "X" is: Maybe I'm a little off. If I am, it's maybe a little deeper into the woods, a smidge closer to the Fort.

Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave?  Surely you can see the wing clearly from there.... In verse10, I believe you are suppose to go to the grey giant (WTC), Statue of Liberty, and then the Verrazano over the slender path. In verse11, I believe you are suppose to go to the Wright Memorial and read the inscription, see that sign, then follow the road to lead us to the dark forest.  Get out of your car, read the sign with July/August and notice the circle and square. The hunt for the casques is suppose to be fun.  Says it right in the book.  What more fun can you have than going to all these places?

Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave?  Surely you can see the wing clearly from there.... superman vison i want some too

I would like to share my opinions... I think positively that this first part of the verse is done, and lead us to Roanoke... (as exposed over this thread) Pass two friends of octave In December Ride the man of oz To the land near the window There's a road that leads to Dark forest Where white is in color With two maps After circle and square In July and August Here is where I see more options (Dare Av, Fort Raleigh, Elizabethan Gardens, Harriot trail, others?) all of them ending in the shore (most likely to see the wing in wright memorial) A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig To achieve Let me to show you a new one "path" I think no mentioned before: Pear Pad Road and what is remarkable over this path? ok: Have a pear shape and I link inmediatly with de Pea-spoon There is a very small familiar cemetery hxxp://files.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/cemeteries/dough01.txt with graves hxxp://www.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/photos/dough1.html (possible reference to mica?) This path ends in the shore So, this cemetery could explain the cross in the pic3. At the end of the Path, there is a odd objet in the shore and " may be the last touched " I think We need more clues from pic in order to determine the exact spot to dig. I hope one of you might explore this area soon...

i was at the fort first time 83,91,2004, i can not remember being able to see to kills, as it is 3-5 miles away from where fort is. thats looking across the sound to kills. link to a look see for size of plane and monument hxxp://gallery.timaltman.com/v/trips/ob ... 9.JPG.html click next four or five times. so maybe v-11 is not the v for pic. unless you start at fort and work your way to kills

The only problem with the Pea Spoon theory is that BP did not have these aerial views when he wrote the book. I find it difficult to believe that he had ANY aerial views, in fact.The satellite pics that Google earth and other programs use now were not in use then by ordinary folk like us. Anything that relies on aerial views to match up with parts of the images I am suspicious of automatically--unless it's something that could be seen from the top of a tower. Unfortunately, the road shapes that Eljayo has shown us cannot. Also---the "two friends of octave" was thought to be referencing the idea that the Wrights were friends of Octave Chanute , not anything to do with Route 12, though "friends" is a term applied VERY loosely here. They met, that is certain...but friends? I doubt it. This makes me doubt the match of this v. and p. 3. And I do not believe one can see the memorial from Roanoke Island either--it would be lost in mists on the nicest days, even if it were tall enough to be seen from that far off, which it isn't. This is one of the reasons I began to doubt the whole solution.

Unknown: The only problem with the Pea Spoon theory is that BP did not have these aerial views when he wrote the book. I find it difficult to believe that he had ANY aerial views, in fact.The satellite pics that Google earth and other programs use now were not in use then by ordinary folk like us. Unknown: Anything that relies on aerial views to match up with parts of the images I am suspicious of automatically--unless it's something that could be seen from the top of a tower. Unfortunately, the road shapes that Eljayo has shown us cannot. Unknown: And I do not believe one can see the memorial from Roanoke Island either--it would be lost in mists on the nicest days, even if it were tall enough to be seen from that far off, which it isn't. This is one of the reasons I began to doubt the whole solution. As I said before.... no needed aerial photos, just a road map. but again... I have aerial pic since 60's available in any geographical book. Let me ask you... why this road is called "pear pad" is a recent name (post google aerial images?)? I don't think so... this road have a pear shape and surely named long time ago. Its possible to see the shore line from Roanoke (see FB pics) and I think is only a confirmer that you are in the right spot (monument at north) ... no need to see the monument clearly

boogs wrote:: Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave? Ha! I wish I could, but I didn't put it there. If you visit the park, you'll see a clearing with a gigantic, vivid, bright yellow X on the ground. shecrab - you can indeed see the memorial from Roanoke. It's small on the horizon, yes, but its elevation is such that if you know where to look, there is no doubt about it. There seems to be some confusion over the Route 12 reference. It is only the word "December" that was suggested to reference Route 12. The "friends of octave" part was thought to be strictly a reference to Octave Chanute. If one drives along Route 12, though, one passes quite close to the Wright Brothers (friends of octave) Memorial. As to whether they were friends, from wikipedia we have: "Chanute was in contact with the Wright brothers from 1900, when Wilbur Wright wrote to him after reading Progress in Flying Machines. Chanute helped to publicise the Wright brothers' work, and provided consistent encouragement, making several visits to their camp near Kitty Hawk. Chanute freely shared his knowledge about aviation with anyone who was interested and expected others to do the same. This led to friction with the Wright brothers, who wanted to protect their invention with patents. The friendship was still impaired when Chanute died in 1910, although Wilbur Wright delivered the eulogy at Chanute's funeral." From other sites, we have letters back and forth between the Wrights and Chanute: hxxp://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/i/Wrights/library/Chanute_Wright_correspond/Chan-Wright-1900.html hxxp://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/inventors/i/Wrights/library/Chanute_Wright_correspond/1908/Chan-Wright-1908.html From yet another site, we have: "The Wright Brothers received their copy of Octave Chanute’s book personally from the author, who became both their friend and advisor.  At their invitation, Chanute visited the Wrights at Dayton, Ohio, and Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and it was Octave Chanute who, at a meeting in December, 1903, of the American Association for the Advancement of Science announced to the world that the Wright Brothers had flown in an heavier than air machine. Wilbur Wright wrote: 'If he (Chanute) had not lived, the entire history of progress in flying would have been other than it has been, for he encouraged not only the Wright Brothers to persevere in their experiments, but (his) private correspondence with experimenters in all parts of the world was of great volume.  No one was too humble to receive a share of his time.  In patience and goodness of heart, he has rarely been surpassed.  Few men were more universally respected and loved.'" From another we get: "Chanute was a mentor to Wilbur and Orville Wright and very influential in the early days of flight exploration." These were from the first 6 hits when I searched Google for "Octave Chanute" along with "Wright." I'm sure I could find more.

FB, I know...I found those also by googling. However, as I said earlier, I'm a bit of a WB buff--and have a few books at home, and have visited the family homes, and quite a few other locations. Also, I've got a personal bio/account, (autographed, no less!) by a man named Fisk, who was a personal friend of the family (mentioned in the will). It's odd, but if these accounts on google are correct, you'd think there'd be a mention of Chanute in that book--it's not 100% comprehensive, but it's definitely a good personallized account and talks about many of the people who knew the Wrights--and there isn't. Chanute was not present at the first flight in December. I realize they knew each other.  But their friction was significant.  Chanute did not even meet them until after the first flight, sometime in 1904.  Instead, they kept writing, but soon began to disagree over details of the newspaper accounts and other things--and in fact fell into a long period where they did not speak or write at all until 1908. (That would make sense in the light of what I have read and why he isn't mentioned in any of it.) As for the latter correspondence, it appears that Wilbur did feel that their relationship had been a friendship, because he calls it that.  However, they never really reconciled before Chanute died. I don't think it was for lack of trying on Wilbur's part, though. So I dunno whether I'd say they were friends--maybe--maybe not. I guess it's how you look at it---and when.

As to whether or not Chanute was, strictly speaking, a friend of the Wrights... we may be reading too much into the word and overthinking it. They knew each other, they were all famous, and all a part of aviation history. I am comfortable using "friend" for that. As to whether the reference to Chanute is too obscure for BP to have known about... I have concluded by this point that NO literary reference was too obscure for BP to have unearthed. Plenty of examples!

shecrab wrote:: The only problem with the Pea Spoon theory is that BP did not have these aerial views when he wrote the book. I find it difficult to believe that he had ANY aerial views, in fact.The satellite pics that Google earth and other programs use now were not in use then by ordinary folk like us. shecrab wrote:: Also---the "two friends of octave" was thought to be referencing the idea that the Wrights were friends of Octave Chanute , not anything to do with Route 12, though "friends" is a term applied VERY loosely here. They met, that is certain...but friends? I doubt it. Long before google earth and the internet, there were these really neat paper things called maps. State Parks are infamous for having these.  ie: This one does not show Pear Pad Rd but I am betting there is one around that does. They may have not dined together every weekend but I think there is plenty of information out there that suggests that they met and were acquainted with one another.  To be a 'friend' does not necessarily mean to be best buddies with. FRIEND: hxxp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/friend I think we are trying to split hairs here.  Let us suppose that BP chose 'somewhere' {used very loosely} around Kill Devil Hill / Roanoke to bury one of his casques.  A solid confirmer to this site would be, of course, the WB themselves.  BP learned that O & W knew Mr. Chanute personally, liked the fact that Mr. Chanute had a unique first name, used lower case to make it a little more challenging......&.....viola.... he gives us "Two friends of octave".  Everything {well, almost} else in this V SCREAMS we have the [W]right location...especially "By dauntless and inconquerable"!!! Why are we even arguing this????

I really am not sure how much more clear this has to be.  Yes, before saying it, the Memorial reads (u)nconquerable instead of (i)nconquerable.  Why?  Not sure, maybe it was BP's choosing or perhaps just his mistake.  The 18th & 19th lines of this V read: "To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable" Is there a reason why BP chose to use the word "achieve" in this puzzle?  Yes...because that is what it says on the Memorial. ""In commemoration of the conquest of the air by the brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright conceived by genius [glow=red,2,300]achieved by dauntless [/glow] resolution [glow=red,2,300]and unconquerable [/glow] faith." They achieved their goal {flight} now let's achieve ours {our casque}. How much more concrete, well in the case of the Memorial, granite can this V be?

hmmm, never saw these guys before.  Wonder what they are doing hanging out in the E Gardens...

Hmm, I wonder what those gnomes are admiring!

That would be Fair to ask

Gnomes & Fairies...

fox wrote:: hmmm, never saw these guys before.  Wonder what they are doing hanging out in the E Gardens... One of them have a fork... maybe looking for a pear (inside yellow circle?) over a pear path (pear pad rd) in red

if that peaspoon is for pea island, what is the other object?  there's not much east of pea island.  i saw where the boiler from a wreck is still above water, east of pea island and south...... hxxp://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... ref=slogin

"Which may be last touched Or first seen standing" Using the new insite from Eljayo - this does describe a Cemetary. 'Last touched" would be the grave (by the deceased) 'First seen standing' would be the grave marker when one is walking up to it. I suspect that taking the proper path to mica and driftwood would bring one to a grave site - probably marked with a figure on a pedistal. Face North, with the maker between you and the beach - and thats a good spot (no chance of it being random)

BP is explicit about casques NOT being buried in cemeteries.

Thinking about this, the cemetery, the pear an peaspoon in pic 3 is not "blue aura highlighted" (sorry about this words invented by me) so i think is just a confirmer that "you are in the right place" Maybe the key is that odd object lie in the shore (seem like a spoon too)... what is this? I would like to be there but...

forest_blight wrote:: Ha! I wish I could, but I didn't put it there. If you visit the park, you'll see a clearing with a gigantic, vivid, bright yellow X on the ground. you can indeed see the memorial from Roanoke. It's small on the horizon, yes, but its elevation is such that if you know where to look, there is no doubt about it. Good one FB.  What I should have asked was if anyone who had been there, checked out the beach at the other side of the square parking lot at the end of Dare Ave.  I think this part of the beach would be considred outside of the Historical Site.  So, did anyone?  I can't get a look off of local.live.com

I did not go there. Good question though.

Found the attached document: hxxp://www.nps.gov/archive/fora/longrange2001.htm Nice piece of government burocracy. Look down about 3/4s of the way... It talks about signs along the trails describing the indians and settlers use of natural resources and earth friendly materials. I would bet that one of those signs has 'mica' and 'driftwood'

fox wrote:: Long before google earth and the internet, there were these really neat paper things called maps. State Parks are infamous for having these.  ie: Fox, there is a very defined circle and square in that map. (i'm probably beating this up too much)

I am well aware of the circle and square on that map.  I was stating that the "spoon shaped" road that was mentioned was not on this map. Didnt you like my idea I posted under P3 thread

Ahhh. I hear ya.  I like eljayo's thinking.  Only I don't know if you can dig in there.  I posted on v3.  Like that spot too.  Can you dig there?

Unknown: Why are we even arguing this? Hey...I'm NOT arguing. I'm only stating the obvious (to me) which is that there is more than one verse that fits a casque in the same area!  You can AS EASILY (not EXCLUSIVELY!) use V. 11 as you can the other verse for the same general area and the SAME PICTURE. Until a casque gets dug up or identified, I'm putting MY money on the other interpretation. Split hairs or not.

Trohn - I looked closely at all of those markers, hoping to see some mention of mica, but alas...

Elljayo:  Please see my post of February 12, 2006 in the Image 3 thread .  I clearly and specifically mention Pear Pad Road, and its possible link to the image near the spoon because it looks like a pear pad cactus to me. A pear pad is a cactus, and the one in Image three looks to me like a pear pad shorn of thorns.  I made this observation in 2006 when I visited the site, as well as the cemetery.

Thanks Kato, I didn't see your post. What do you see at the end of the road? this road ends in a circle road (cul-de-sac)... It's possible to see the WB monument from this circle? (i like this spot... look like the pea) What is that object on the shore like a spoon? stones? wood? Where is the cemetery located? Do you have any pics?

Eljayo: Yes the road does end in a cul-de sac.  To the right is the cemetery, which is very old and seems to contain the remains of just two families.  Past the cemetery is the beach, but it is inaccessable from this location.  The reason is that the cemetery and environs are on a bluff, which rises about 25 feet above the beach, and is tangled with brush and large rocks which were placed there to curtail erosion. You cannot get onto the beach safely from the bluff.  From the bluff you can look down the beach all the way to Waterside Theatre.  There is lots of driftwood at this end of the beach, and you can see the "Wing" very clearly from this location as there are no obstructions at all.  I also think that the cross in Image 3 has to do either with the ships mast used at the Waterside theatre, or as you postulate, the cemetary at the end of Pear Pad road.    Sorry, no pictures.  The road is a paved surface, and is about 300 feet from the beach.

i may have time to go to N.C. at the end of september, ill be in chesapeake va. for 8 days, and if i can squeeze, a 70 mile ride in, about the middle of my stay, ill go to the park, and see what i can see. so ive been looking, and thinking about v11 and v5,. so far this is all ive come up with. any suggestions would be great and that bench, will be the first thing i look at, and dig at from what i understand, 2 foot or more of sand could be there/ ie hurricanes tropical storms, and just the wind blowing sand for 20+ yrs ...................................................................................... v5 not ruled out yet to me, and i did  find a west baum, street/road near the sight of FFA, just south west of the memorial, and landing strip the line, ..........lane two twenty two......... may be saying, 2 lane, lane 20, and lane 2 see below, there is a left and right traffic pattern yes i know iffy, just trying to cover the bases ya know Runway Information RUNWAY 2 Gradient:  0.1% Traffic pattern:  LEFT Markings:  nonprecision, in good condition Obstructions:  15 ft. road, 486 ft. from runway, 19:1 slope to clear HAS +15 FT ROAD 125 FT R; 0-200 FT FROM THLD. 80 FT PLINE 1700 FT FROM THLD. Runway 20 Gradient:  0.1% Traffic pattern: RIGHT Markings:  nonprecision, in good condition Obstructions: 34 ft. trees, 1089 ft. from runway, 4 ft. left of centerline, 26:1 slope to clear hxxp://www.airnav.com/airport/KFFA i thought of hang gliding too, not exactly wingless ie; one large wing hxxp://www.kittyhawk.com/info/history.cfm .................................................................................................. always thought v11 was the v to p3, but again just trying, to cover all bases ya know anyway, near the circle square, and grave marker, is a path that has not been followed at least i found no mention of it, could have missed that discussion though, and the other path/trail has been checked, as it goes to the garden. sorry no map to show of the other path/trail anyway pause vids at times indicated, to see what im talking about i think i remember a marker/sign, was there to indicate where the circle square/ earthworks are last visit was 2004 i think, maybe 2003 circle and square...look/pause at 42 seconds hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSmuj6twbtY i dont remember this marker at all symbol on armor at the marker/ grave stone and the july and august reference i think this is near the circle square ie: earthworks look/pause at 3 minute and 53 seconds hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM6exVR_zXI To the land near the window has this line, been resolved as to what its saying a house has windows, and i found this hxxp://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lon=-75 ... atum=nad83 from this link hxxp://www.topozone.com/states/NorthCar ... ure=Island

I think a strong connection betwen p3 and v11 is "Ride the man of oz" (cross the bridge) "To the Land near the window" (in p3 the shape of Roanoke isle is beside the window). cw, if you've the oportunity to go there, try to get some pictures at the end of pear road. It'll be appreciate.

i hope you are able to go cw!  i think you will need to spend a couple of days right there at the elizabethan gardens and lost colony. it just hit me ( duh) that BP mentions Image 3 itself in this verse.   "to the land near the window"  (the shape of roanoke island beside the window in  Image 3)....wonder if this could be another thing he does in other verses, like in verse 7 where it says "in jewel's direction", could be from GGP shape to the jewel in the image. this is what forest_blight has for the roads for verse 11 (from p. 18 of the General Questions thread) V11 Pass two friends of octave In December (NC 12) Ride the man of oz To the land near the window There's a road that leads to (almost certainly Hwy. 64) Dark forest

cw is now slapping self on head and expressing a BIG DUH! thanks slappy, have been trying to work that line out, since i read the V way back when. good idea about the other verses too nothing like a clue, right in your face, and in the open then your sure to miss it eljayo if i can fit the ride to the park in ill take the pics is this a place i should give attention to? if i get there

Unknown: "Yes the road does end in a cul-de sac.  To the right is the cemetery, which is very old and seems to contain the remains of just two families.  Past the cemetery is the beach, but it is inaccessable from this location.  The reason is that the cemetery and environs are on a bluff, which rises about 25 feet above the beach, and is tangled with brush and large rocks which were placed there to curtail erosion. You cannot get onto the beach safely from the bluff.  From the bluff you can look down the beach all the way to Waterside Theatre.  There is lots of driftwood at this end of the beach, and you can see the "Wing" very clearly from this location as there are no obstructions at all.  I also think that the cross in Image 3 has to do either with the ships mast used at the Waterside theatre, or as you postulate, the cemetary at the end of Pear Pad road.    Sorry, no pictures.  The road is a paved surface, and is about 300 feet from the beach." YES! It seem to me if you follow the v11's instructions you will end at the cul-de-sac of pear road where you can see the wings monument. Kato already was there, but don't have pics: So... If I could be there, first sight surelly would be this place. (see previous thread to read more about other details).

Simple in concept. I like it.

it's been awhile since i looked at all the pictures of the elizabethan gardens, but i remember thinking that the only thing that kind of looked like that girdle in the image was queen elizabeth's skirt.......and she was called the virgin queen...........last touched? or first seen standing........she's standing  ;D hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/justinkauk/3787870728/ but then i liked the theater too, because it has wings, and it's right by the beach...last touched and first seen standing ( you have to walk in) definintion wing:Theater. a. the platform or space on the right or left of the stage proper. and that whole suit of armor (in the image) reminds me of that chief wingina....(sorry, been a long time, something like that), and that line having the word "wing" and the chief's name being "wingina (whatever), and i like that bench that someone had posted, because it reminds me of the old riddle about what do you have when you sit down but lose when you stand up....... (your lap) i guess just 'cause it's a riddle too........ guess between us and your own ideas, you're gonna need to be there the whole eight days............ and the gate.. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/hikerpark/2846411437/ or is it a riddle about your feet?  last touched (putting on your shoes) but first seen standing?

I think if I'm given the opportunity to know the answer to only one question after I die, it will be what "may be last touched or first seen standing."

Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing for some reason i keep thinking a play on words seen/scene wing/part of theater standing/last touched/ curtian under that? just putting it out there

lol, forest_blight!  it's soooooo frustrating wow, that's a good thought cw!  scene, seen..... that means  you're gonna have to watch the whole show to see where they start scene one and the very last scene! ...maybenot because "north' would be the left wing right?    i really like that cw, i hope that's it!!!!! i was just looking again at the map of roanoke in the image, and it has that line coming off the top of the island..........wouldn't that be where the theater is? always before, i had thought circle and square was the parking lot and the garden at elizabethan gardens, but, i read where elizabethan gardens are made of geometric shapes.....so the verse says "after" circle and square, then the "in july and august" which is "lost colony" theater, i believe, because they only do that in the summer.. i'm excited about this cw!

If the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens is the "window" in I3 After circle and square...A path beckons To mica and driftwood #9 the Mount and Well Head is a circle with #11 the Sunken Garden being a square the path #13 the Walk to Water Gate from hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html If Walk to Water Gate is the one with the bench at the end that we've seen in several posts, then the theater is not North it would be East. The wing to the north would likely be Colington Island. It looks rather like a bat wing, and pairing this v with I3, there is a bat shape with one wing under the wrist of the arm on the left side of the image.

I've been contemplating the months mentioned in the verse. I've been wondering why December and July & August are mentioned but not other months. Thinking about the months, December is at the end of the year and in winter or a cold time, where July & August are near the middle of the year and in the summer or a warm time. What else ties in with these opposite times of the year... Then it hit me... Birds migrate South for the cold months and North for the warm months. Then I look at the phrases containing the months and the surrounding lines as directions. Pass two friends of octave  (pass the wright brothers historical area) In December      (heading South to, or South of this area) Ride the man of oz To the land near the window    (Cross the bridge with the name Baum) After circle and square (Elizabethan Garden's  Mount&Well Head (circle) and Sunken Garden (square)) In July and August  (head North to , or North of this area) A path beckons To mica and driftwood (the Walk to Water Gate (path))

slappybuns wrote:: and i like that bench that someone had posted, because it reminds me of the old riddle about what do you have when you sit down but lose when you stand up....... (your lap) Under that  Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig I would poke under and to the north side of that bench.

i think that bench has been dug around many times by now cormac that's a different look at "december" cormac, pretty neat but i'm still convinced that's for highway #12, and "july and august" are summer months when they only do the "lost colony theater" cw's "scene"..........just makes me feel, that's it......somewhere around the theater, probably behind it on the beach side. i hope, i hope, i hope

"That which may be last touched Or first seen standing...." That sounds like something tall ! The memorial...a lighthouse... a bridge..an arch? Just thinking out loud here... AP

forgive me but i am on my cell right now. i think the months have been explained. as for the wing, i believe the wright memorial is north of our bench. the treasure may not be directly under the bench but i would be willing to bet it is nearby.

i believe the casque is hidden at the water gate my thinking is Pass two friends of octave In December wright bros Ride the man of oz baum bridge To the land near the window roanoke near window in p3 There's a road that leads to  Dark forest the path after the parking lot, with the start of the interpretive signs Where white is in color john white With two maps sign that has map of gardens and map of fort site and paths/trails After circle and square this area hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey11.html In July and August when the play plays A path beckons To mica and driftwood the path to water gate # 13 hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html Under that may be the gate its self, as it does not open at least it didnt use to Which may be last touched the water gate as everyone tries to open it/me included Or first seen standing the water gate Look north at the wing And dig just in the direction of the wing and i think that would be the left hand pillar of water gate or the right pillar under the gate and under the gate near pillar/s is where to dig hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey13.html i could never figure out what, the keys were for till now, keys open locks, such as the one on the water gate, and where the jewel is in pic3 looks a lot like the entrance gate hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey2.html hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey1.html whoops forgot a link,you can see where water gate and theater are hxxp://www.icw-net.com/aa_SiteObjects/a ... dsmap1.jpg

cw0909 wrote:: In July and August when the play plays All Ok... just one detail... Plays start in June... hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQO6U6w2pTc

cw...that is pretty much exactly how I take it also.  There is too darn much for it NOT to be in the E Gardens.  It is near that darn gate & bench my friends.  Mark my words...

eljayo wrote:: All Ok... just one detail... Plays start in June... hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQO6U6w2pTc was just thinking about that so maybe in 80-81 it was at a different starting time or it could just be a clue for the grave marker that says july august july fouth opened and august roosevelt attended i dont remember a marker/sign stating that but prob is one anyone know for sure North Carolina's Paul Green penned the production, which was a unique combination of drama, song, and dance, while Roanoke Islanders set to work building the magnificent Waterside Theatre on the very spot where the colonists settled. On July 4, 1937, The Lost Colony opened to a packed house, despite the economic hardship of the Great Depression. The show was intended to run only through the end of that summer. But when Franklin D. Roosevelt attended on August 18, 1937, the nation's eyes were fixed on the production, assuring that there would be subsequent seasons hxxp://www.thelostcolony.org/History.htm

The Water Gate: I agree, I agree, I agree. I have even probed near this Gate on three separate occassions, from both sides.  But where in Image 3 is the Water Gate or its envrions depicted?  I can't find it in the Image, and I would think that it would be as clearly depicted as the fence post in Image 5 is (Chicago Casque) since the Water Gate is also a distinctive marker.  I agree with Fox, the casque is near this Gate. Somewhere.  But the clues have to line up, from the verse, and from an Image.  How do the clues in Image 3 get us to the Water Gate?  The verse seems to lead there, but Image 3 is a conundrum.

kato i noticed that too, ill have the pic and v with me, so maybe ill see, something there from the image i know there is a half suite of armor, dont remember where, maybe the visitor center forgot to mention the bells,would those be wedding bells i think they still have weddings there whoops sorry forgot one more thing, where the bench is the bench with engraving is in the woodland childs section hxxp://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 0444awrFyr

cw0909: The half suite of Elizabethan armor is inside the visitors center, along with lots of other artifacts that may be germane to Verse 11 and Image 3.  This Verse and Image pairing is a little bit like the Japanese film Rashomon, where the same event is examined from diametrically different positions, with widly disparate interpretations.  Good hunting.

kato, did you poke in the middle of the gate? what if those last lines have more to do with the treasure than just to make you think of the Wright brothers?  "to achieve by dauntless and inconquerable determination".............Dare?  the statue, the road? dare –verb (used without object) 1. to have the necessary courage or boldness for something; be bold enough: You wouldn't dare! –verb (used with object) 2. to have the boldness to try; venture; hazard. 3. to meet defiantly; face courageously. 4. to challenge or provoke (a person) into a demonstration of courage; defy: to dare a man to fight. dauntless Synonyms: 1. undaunted, daring , indomitable, brave, courageous. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/hikerpark/2847235218/ looks like she is on a column and maybe that word "may" means she "possibly" last touched or stood here, lol

kato did you try the outside of the gate i just dont see B.P. walking around the gardens with casque and shovel in hand or maybe this line has a double meaning if he did to achieve by dauntless and inconquerable determination A Matter of Perspective though p3 seems to indicate, inside looking out and not outside looking in the key on the right, in p3, has a odd shape on the top of it. i looked at the garden map that was posted, thinking maybe it was the shape of the area, where casque is buried,could be the map is not detailed enough

How about a what if.... What if... "A path beckons To mica and driftwood" is just referencing what you should see from the dig spot. this phrase does not actually say " take the path that leads to mica and driftwood" What if...  BP gave us an "X marks the spot" on I3 ? In the bottom left an object hangs at the bottom of a very long string which could be pointing to a spot. BP does mention maps in the V and maybe you need a map to compare to the image. I've marked an X on the park map and on the section of I3 where they could match up. Also, if you look on the map below the X I've marked, you see a small pillar just "after circle and square" I can not find a picture of this pillar online , and I wonder if it matches the on in I3 that supports the armor.

both really good new theories. i really like the new take on the lines leading to 'dare' and perhaps her statue. she was the first born in the usa.

cw, remember the found ones were in cultural gardens or parks.  BP was sneaky, i believe i read where he'd sneak in at night, or use maintenance clothes and stuff like that, i'm sure he wasn't obvious about it. cormac, i do like the map idea, i'm just not finding a good map of these gardens, they used to have one, and i'm sure i saved it on my old computer, but i can't seem to find that one again. i like the thought of the shape of the park somewhere in the image. here's something at the overlook: hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey12.html i've been thinking those bells could  be for "sound", like "roanoke sound" (the waterway) thanks fox  ;D  , i really like Dare too, but we gotta get the hunters liking it, lol ...........ooops, you are a hunter, maybe you can get up there? when they say "elizabethan garden theater" are they talking about the waterside theater with the lost colony? look at this: he Diary of Adam and Eve – The Elizabethan Gardens Theatre, (252) 473-3234. Tuesdays at 2:30 p.m. in July and August. from this site: hxxp://www.roanokeisland.net/recreation/

I did poke around on the outside of the gate, which is on the beach and accessable from the National Historic Park.  I also don't see how BP could have possibly buried the casque inside the Gate, which is of course inside the Elizabethan Gardens. Too many people.  But,he would have had much more privacy on the beach.  The Gardens are always full of tourists who love to gaze out over the Gate.  From the outside of the Gate there is an unobstructed view of the Wright Memorial (the Wing).  All you have to do is look at it and dig.  My probing could have easily missed the exact spot.   Keep the ideas coming guys.

found this map below interesting, notice the circle, square, on the left side of map, i see a path to the beach. the only part of the park, i ever checked out was, to the right of the employ housing. looks like you could drive there and park, then walk up the path/trail has anyone ever been there an overview map of digs hxxp://firstcolonyfoundation.org/archae ... map_01.jpg from here hxxp://firstcolonyfoundation.org/archaeology/ backside of lost col theater hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... heater.jpg hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... heater.jpg bench decorations, check out the leg of the bench could there be something from pic on one of the other benches too hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/cryptonaut ... 015762198/

cw0909:  The area that you are asking about on the first map you reference is a residential street within the National Historic Site called Pear Pad Road.  It is a cul-de sac with some residential homes on it, as well as the maintence yard for the Historic site.  There is a very old cemetery just to the north side of the cul-de sac.  If you walk into the cemetery you will soon come to a windy height the overlooks the same beach that the Sea Gate faces.  The Theatre complex is about one quarter mile up the beach from this location, with the Sea Gate at about the half way point.

wow cw, that picture of virginia dare, you could jump that fence, and look it has the curve that is in the picture on that trellis/arbor thing! you were looking at the bench, but i saw virginia dare! hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/cryptonaut ... 015762198/ umm, that trellis/arbor thing isn't quite the same, sorry, it was b4 first cup of coffee.  ;D  :-[ i guess those arches in the image is the gatehouse i like your maps cw. another idea for "july and august" could be #7 and #8.......and in the tour map.....that's the tea garden and queen elizabeth statue, not sure if that has always been the case: hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html but from then you head toward the beach, and virginia dare is thataway  ;D

slappy if this sleuthing involves, jumping fences, boy are we in trouble. im 50 something and a bad back,so my fence jumping days are over....LOL ive left a message for the garden folks, to send me a detailed map, we will see im thinking, this will have to take, at least 2 days in park, to look around, probe, dig? the old cemetery is DOUGH, couldnt find much though, hxxp://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/ ... anteo.html dough maggiee meekins crypt hxxp://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/ ... scrypt.jpg wasnt their someone that lived near and was working this image? if there was pm me, id like to hook up and talk while there, even a phone chat would work, while im there or whatever

eljayo wrote:: •There is a very small familiar cemetery hxxp://files.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/c ... ough01.txt with graves hxxp://www.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/photos/dough1.html (possible reference to mica?) So, this cemetery could explain the cross in the pic3. At the end of the Path, there is a odd objet in the shore and " may be the last touched " I think We need more clues from pic in order to determine the exact spot to dig. I hope one of you might explore this area soon... I just love cyclic thinking of "The Secret forum"... Pear Pad road again... we all can find new things revisiting old threads. Please cw.. when you visit roanoke, do not forget to take a look around pear pad road, and i will give you an exact location to search... Try to find this tombstone: hxxp://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/dough_manteo/unknown.jpg (take a picture of the other side) and look at the wings direction(wright monument). Next step: go out of the cemetery to the shore follow wings direction (all us know there is not a casque) and then... well you know...  :mop  ;). Kato says there is a bluff, but may BP was able to dig there or close...

lol cw! i'm sorry, i just get excited and want someone to go find these things!  but you know, even the digging is going to be hard, seems you have to go like 3 or 4 feet deep, and then 3 or 4 feet wide, that's bad enough without jumping fences and running from the law........... kato,  do you live there?   have you gone the route of getting the park people involved? has anyone? forest_blight? didn't you live near there?  eljayo, you seem to know the area, did you live there, or are you still close by? i just can't get excited outside of the garden, like the cemetery and pear pad road.....i'm not convinced. Image 3 has the stylus devil, and he's cultural........and to me, the elizabethan gardens fits that, for the english (queen elizabeth) or americans (virginia dare) and even native americans with the lost colony. i wish i could meet you cw, but it's like 7 hours from here or more, i've seen the wright brothers and "the lost colony play", but it was years before i'd ever heard of this hunt.  we didn't go to the elizabethan gardens.  and if i'm remembering right, it was dark when i saw the play, so i didn't see much of that area. matter of fact, i don't think we saw the museum or anything, we just went to see the play.

if it's the sea gate, and looking at it from cw's point of view, being inside the garden it would be the right side of the gate looking out into the sea, because that's the only one shown in the image clearly, don't you think? or clearer anyway.  but since the jewel is "over" the ball of the gate column (in the image), maybe it's on the outside of the garden, but still the one on the right from inside. lol is that the side you probed on kato?

eljayo  i like the grave stone ideas, will look at that area too. i mentioned this to a friend, asked what could it mean.. first seen standing, may be last touched his reply was stairs or rail on the stairs, he is a carpenter i did not mention ....under that....just to see what answer i would get hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/289951 ... 4452LrINli from the same album from above link, i dont remeber seeing this hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 4452GWkFrT the album for the above links, from one of kyvannguyen albums hxxp://travel.webshots.com/album/573844551GsIIRR kyvannguyen albums, i did not look to see if kyvannguyen, has albums for other places we are looking, kyvannguyen has 10pgs of albums hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/kyvannguyen?start=0

Slappy:  I vacation on the Outerbanks every August, so I have had plenty of free time to search for the casque.  I have probed on both sides of the gate: BUT not very extensively from the inside, which is of course private property and completely forbidden.  Thats why I think BP used the Elizabethan Gardens for clues in the verse ("dark forrest") but did not bury the casque inside the Gardens themselves.  Outside of the Gate is another matter.  I have probed in front of the Gate, and to each of its sides, but without any real sense of how close or how far away from the Gate the casque might be located.  The beach is usually deserted though,so one could probe extensively without being bothered. One other observation I would like to make:  As the verse 11 takes you from the Wright Brothers Memorial to the Baum Bridge, (a distance of approximately five miles) I would expect to detect or locate markers from Image 3 along the way. The markers would reenforce the idea that you are following the correct pathway.  Likewise, when you cross over the Bridge to "the land near the window," I would also expect to find markers from the Image somewhere in the five mile distance from the Bridge to the "road that leads to dark forrest," which I presume to be the entrance to the National Historic Park. But: I have driven this route countless times looking for these markers and have never located any. Logically, the markers should be spaced out along the way as you follow the verse.  All the markers in Image 3 cannot be inside the National Historic Site.

kato, i'm not sure why you say the gardens are forbidden?  , no scratch that, i know why you say it, but i don't know why you think BP would think it.  the cleveland and chicago ones were in the same kind of parks......i believe.  he didn't ask for permission, he was sneaky.  and maybe in 1982, the place wasn't so busy. i'm not sure about markers in the image, every image and solve might be different, but, to me, the verse is clear in getting to the gardens and lost colony.  of course, i'm not there and don't know the area like you do. i'm glad you get to spend time there, i think that's the only way these are ever gonna get solved, by  someone who knows the area.

kato when are you going back to OBX, or maybe you went already do you have pics of Egarden and park to share thanks

The 3 markers on the tombstone -> -Markers are circled shape -Markers A and B are together. -Markers ABC form an arch looking down The 3 markers on image 3 (tombstone) -> -Markesr are circled shape too -Markers A' and B' are together. -Markers A'B'C' form an arch looking Up I'm trying to figure out what is in the other side of the tombstone... In the border of the cemetery are a bluff... By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. Make sense to me if we have to dig on a bluff (or close to)

I keep hearing "inside the gate" and "outside the gate", but doesn't the v say "under" Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Having to dig under that fence from either side with the fence locked would certainly require "dauntless and inconquerable Determination"

who are the "not conquerable" ones?......the indians? to achieve, to a chief..........lol maybe indian chief manteo, instead of chief wingina or wanchese has this one been shown b4: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jps246/3563412162/ it has "july and august" on it are the trees that had the letters "cro" and "croatoan" on them  still around somewhere?......last touched "The only clue to the fate of the "Lost Colony" was the word "CROATAN" carved in the bark of a tree near the gate of the fort, and the letters "CRO" carved on another tree stripped of bark. What had happened to the colonists? " hxxp://www.trivia-library.com/a/mysteri ... rginia.htm and what happened to the trees?

Cormac wrote:: I keep hearing "inside the gate" and "outside the gate", but doesn't the v say "under" Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Having to dig under that fence from either side with the fence locked would certainly require "dauntless and inconquerable Determination" have thought about that and, it would have, had to been dug at an angle, which would make it harder to find, i would think at one of the pillars or center of gate from this post Re: Verse 11 « Reply #317 on: August 10, 2009, 07:06:07 pm » Look north at the wing And dig just in the direction of the wing and i think that would be the left hand pillar of water gate or the right pillar under the gate and under the gate near pillar/s is where to dig hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey13.html

"The post and the tree bearing the carvings have long since vanished, " hxxp://www.hometowntales.com/forum/view ... hp?f=8&t=9 no one laughed at my " to achieve",  "to a chief" ......and i'm kindof serious  :) but how about this............"which may be last touched"......................something lost. .............and then with cw's " scene" for "first seen"...........the lost colony play and even "to mica and driftwood"........ "waterside " theater what do ya think? plus, "look north at the wing and dig" , i still like chief wingina , maybe somewhere you look "up"  (for North)  at chief wingina maybe a "sign", or "ceremonial pole" or "sculpture" or just a picture  of him around the visitor center museum since that's where the armor is, or maybe just a sign with "the lost colony" i hadn't noticed that looking like a bell beside the suit of armor before: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461771523/

slappy all things are possible at this point maybe that armor is telling us, it is around the visitor center seems there was an engraving, or a plague, with a pic of some guy in armor or maybe it was just the armor. dont know memory is bad LOL see the funny 2 pointed, weapon in upper left hand corner of this pic, looks sorta like the thing hanging, from the armor guy in p3 hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/46 ... 059739991/ the start of that guys lost colony set hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/se ... il/?page=4

and you'll be there soon! i like somewhere around the visitor center.  can't wait til after your visit and your thoughts, or hopefully your hunt

Another view of the gate

this very first picture of forest_blight"s has the crest shaped like a gravestone (upside down) and the cross: hxxp://travel.webshots.com/album/550878737WxeMst

working on my plan of action have a Q about the visitor center does anyone remember, if their were older photos, of the Egarden there, or were they in the garden, i  remember seeing some, just not where are the bells for this.....may have been discussed sorry if was The Roanoke Island Historical Society leased 10.5 acres to The Garden Club of North Carolina for the proposed gardens. Albert "Skipper" Bell began clearing and doing preliminary work on the site. 2007 Restoration of The Elizabethan Gardens begins. .............should i send an email, to see if they found, something odd from the time line hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/timeline.html could the armor man be the map, so to speak

The EG keeps a bunch of old photographs and documents, but not in the gift-shop building at the gate. In another building on the grounds, where the offices, costumes, etc. are kept. See images 0827-0830 on my webshots album for Roanoke. hxxp://travel.webshots.com/album/550878737WxeMst

the last thing you could touch would be the entrance gate, (when you leave) and the first thing you see when you get there (standing, getting out of the car) right? possibly, lol

thanks FB ill put them in a photo program, and see what i can see you wouldnt happen to remember, a date on them would you slappy thought of that, would require some stealth you guys got that bail $$, right  :rofl sorry didnt mean to post map here, if you want ill move it later

The Gazebo photos date to April, 1981, when it was built. The EG plans probably date to 1952-1953.

cw0909 wrote:: could the armor man be the map, so to speak I resized your image, cropped the picture to give me a straight vertical line from the middle of the entrance to the water, then adjusted  it slightly to match the angled line below the arm and matched Doing this put the chest cross thing right in the center of the  sunken garden. Interesting.

thanks chad, thats what i was thinking, just didnt think, to overlay from the other 2 finds i think, the casque was just a few feet, from the the reference point in pic seems easy enough to sneak around, early morning hours, or late day, to get the job done out side of the Egate. not to sure about inside the gate though

i like that map, good job! don't forget your poker cane thingie cw! if you get caught just call slappybuns at 1-800-NOT-HOME

it'd be a lot easier if you got a bulldozer! wilhouse

im trying to find things, on the armor man, that match the garden the key on the right of pic, seems to be a KEY, cause of the unusal top of it, why 2 loops, see the red arrow E gate in 2008 hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/258255 ... 5447bYGAtk trees are smaller in 2003,and 2002 hxxp://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 0444MQjqpS hxxp://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 0510SaKOKM closed hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/116066 ... 6789mShmBp good veiw of the crest, the right and left side scroll thing, sorta looks like the armor mans, bands on his arms hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 5088YGOUZA nice view of sea gate hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 3953CFcTzn kinda looks like the face mask, only on the mask the circle of dots, and the 4 points are seperated on the mask/face shield hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/268617 ... 1022WLHnfy pots, i think they are in the garden, not out side of the gate, kinda looks like the pot armor man is in, at least it is the closest ive seen hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 0573QbcScD hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/104346 ... 9578zTfHRx ways to get in garden when closed [ may have been an easy task in 81 ] foot holds in walls.low walls, chain link fence hxxp://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 2423koWWVQ hxxp://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1370 ... 0573MdBUdt if you get caught just call slappybuns at 1-800-NOT-HOME

those pots are the closest i've seen also ,cw! obviously we think of "key" and "gate" but also it could be "admission."..........maybe it's where you pay to get in? and a synonym for key  is "chief" , i still like my chief wingina i wonder if the 2 keys just mean "cay" (a small low island, key)  for roanoke island...............and since it's pronounced either "k" and "key" that could be the reason for the "krazy Kampus..." words in the fair folks

cw, another point for it being by the elizabethan entrance is the coat of arms above the entrance door: hxxp://www.landscape-america.com/elzibe ... index.html taking the word "wing" to "feather" to "crest" to "coat of arms" key--door-entrance

slappy im going to look at this area too, but not outside of door, to many changes can and do happen there hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/116066 ... 6789mShmBp will be looking out side of here, but more inside where pots are, those pots are the closest ive seen from the 1500, or more photos ive look at, now if i could fig which pot, and where around pot to probe hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/104346 ... 9578zTfHRx hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 0573QbcScD i was thinking more a..... coat of arms/armor and the scroll things, on the crest look like the bands on the armor i like the wing word association too coat of arms hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/ful ... 5088YGOUZA the points ive picked to concentrate on are below, and the pear rd area also the pear rd, ill look at b4 Egardens open

cw, circle  queen elizabeth too,  just in case you know, what with the "order of the garter"  and all i like that, "coat of arms/armor" idea, as in the image, it could be a "coat", lol his right finger is pointing, so i would check that side, "inside" the gate, don't you think? when is it you get to go?  soon now right?

bad news i was in a car accident, tuesday morn 9-8-09, and it has thrown, my already bad back out. this happened on the job, while transporting clients, no clients in van i had dropped off last client, about 8 min, b4 i was rear ended, im doing 25 he is doing 35-40 mph, we are both in motion, no braking involved till the crunch. at least i did not hit the car in front of me. this is the 3rd rear end accident, for me in the last 7yr. in the last 2, i was pushed into oncoming traffic, and hit again. lucky this time, was in curb lane and 50 ft from a 5 lane intersection at all 4 points, could have been worse i guess. yes he was on the F phone, just like the last 2 Xs im off work for 2 wks, that SUCKS. i love my job. i work with intellectually disabled adults. feeling better now that ive ranted, not really now i need therapy, for the next several wks, so no traveling. sorry guys maybe later in the yr wonder if i can sue for the loss of fun time LOL

Bad news cw... I hope that the therapy makes you feel better

you could always catch a ride cw but i suppose any digging would be out of the question. lol  .    get some much deserved rest and get well soon my friend.

oh cw, i'm so sorry!  you have a right to vent and thank you for letting us know! i wish there was someway we could really help you, and i'm sorry now that i made that joke about if you needed help you could call me at "not home"..........i really would have bailed you out if you had needed help. hope there are lots of people to help you through all this!

Sorry to hear you've had an accident, CW.....get better soon!!

thanks guys

I hear Hot Tubs are very therapeutic... so are Margaritas.... ahem... so I hear... Hope you feel better soon.

Then you definitely can't go wrong with a hot tub full of margaritas wheeeeeeeeee

fox wrote:: Then you definitely can't go wrong with a hot tub full of margaritas wheeeeeeeeee aahhh have a return to work, next week, super lght duty, hoping 4hr days therapy starts soon, hoping to be on the road again, o to speak

well work has been, and therapy, is going prob till 2nd week of oct thinking i will not get to chesapeake,va to help moms cuz, so wont get my day at the park any time soon. was thinking around feb. or april check out my new probe, a buddy made for me, he might go with would have took a pic but cant find the memory card for camera

If you don't have a friend who can make one, you can buy almost the exact same thing at Home Depot for $20 in the pipe area.  I have two (I bent one in the hard Zoo dirt). wilhouse

thanks willhouse, good to know so im guessing the weld at the T isnt as strong as it could be is it like a spot weld

cw, maybe the sand in NC won't be so hard on your probe k, guys, i'm in austin, tx, old computer died, and still unpacking, but i'm back, hopefully.  and hopefully i can recover all my old notes

wb slappy! i too am hoping to one day be off my cell phone and back on my computer. viruses suck

a little off topic i have an e machine, its made by gateway the athlon processors is a great processor check this link for refurbished, ive been using mine for 2yr, has win win home vista premium installed on it, 3.4 gig. something processor 2 gig ram, bocoo programs installed. happy with my machine link to similar hxxp://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... S445-10038

I saw this on the tweleve site posted from OBXMom....thought it was interesting. hxxp://tweleve.org/verses/16281-verse-11-a-4.html I work on Roanoke Island, and used to work for the Elizabethan Gardens. I think the "last touched...first seen" clue refers to the "Croatan Tree" that used to stand in the gardens. When the colonists disappeared, the only clue left behind was the word "Croatan" carved into a tree (hence, the "last touched") The tree used to stand in the gardens until a storm damaged it about ten (?) years ago. Believe it or not, a tree service was called in, and the tree was cut down, and CHIPPED!!! (You would think the part with the carving would have been saved and preserved in a display!) The storm was before my time at the gardens, but several people showed me where it used to be. I love the idea about July and August and the statues. The statues are located in the "sunken garden." The "sunken garden" is the central formal garden. It is a large square, with a circular fountain at the center. The statues are in the four quadrants between the fountain, and the boundaries of the square. One path leads directly towards the water. Two other paths go sideways and then both go towards the water. The fourth path leads away. I personally, have examined all three paths where they meet the water. From all three areas, you can look north and see the wing (the Wright Brothers monument across the water). I couldn't find any distinguishing marker from which to dig! At the time, I was an employee, and digging was quite frequently in my job description. (But if I'm not mistaken, in NC, all beaches are public property to the high tide mark.) The only concearn I have is that there has been alot of erosion over the last ten years. I confirmed this with a second generation gardner who used to work there.

Thank you m220m. That is very interesting indeed! AP

m220m wrote:: I work on Roanoke Island, and used to work for the Elizabethan Gardens. I think the "last touched...first seen" clue refers to the "Croatan Tree" that used to stand in the gardens. I like this.  If one stands at the site where the Croatan tree was, can one see the wing?

It's a good theory: "last touched" because it was the last thing the colonists presumably touched before disappearing into history, "first seen" because White and his men saw it upon arrival at the former colony, and "standing" because it's a tree. When I visited Roanoke in 2005, one of the gardeners took me to the spot where the "Croatoan tree" once stood. I dismissed the claim as ridiculous, because there's no way it could have been the same tree, but I didn't want to be rude, so we kept walking. I did take a picture of the spot, though. It is now an unassuming garden patch. I can't remember precisely where it is, but I suspect this photograph I took may help someone on-site:

Follow-up. No, I don't think you can stand at the tree's former location and look over to the wing.

Cool, thanks for the info.

Posting for Fox, as he's too busy being a TV star to post himself now  (lol). "I really like the 'Croaton' being what is last touched. Does it really matter that we can't see the wing? Maybe that is our spot to dig since it begins, "Under that. . ." Maybe we just find the north side of where it once stood and dig? " wilhouse

There is considerable inconsistency in online sources on this, but it seems that CRO was carved into a tree near the settlement entrance and CROATOAN was carved into a palisade / fencepost. There is an oral tradition of the tree's (former) location, but I have not seen any hard evidence. You'd think that if this incredibly historically significant tree survived into modern times -- or even if some mischief-maker carved CROATOAN into a tree in the 1930s -- there would be some photographic evidence of it, from tourists if not official sources. I have not seen a photograph of this tree. Can anyone find one?

I'm liking this theory more and more, the more I think about it. I really wish I could remember where that patch of garden was located, but I *think* (wishful thinking?) it is near where the path leads from the main part of the Garden to the Gazebo, which overlooks the sound toward Kitty Hawk (a path beckons...). So the idea would be to dig immediately north (i.e., the seaward side) of the former site of the Croatoan tree. X marks the spot. Now all we need is a gold bug and a string. Thinking practically, we need harder evidence. With photographic evidence of the exact spot where the tree in question stood, we'd be in a good position to get permission to dig from the owners.

i often have to remind myself how long ago this book and hunt were developed.  Researching 'croatoan' now, i find this: In 1998, "The Croatoan Project," an archaeological dig sponsored by East Carolina University, discovered the first material connection between Roanoke and the Croatan. And think of how long ago that project happened!  Could we contact anyone about where they dug? Even later investigations have been published, and yet they are also years old at this point: hxxp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... olony.html If you can put up with the banner animation which slowed down my browser, click thru to the second page and read this: "In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand." Would that not have been cool if that were our casque?!? "(Park Service staff did not excavate the objects)"

Forrest:  Are you saying that you remember the Croatan or CRO tree was located inside the Elizabethan Gardens somewhere near the Sea Gate?   I like this idea very much, but you would think that there would be a marker or plaque today indicating where this historical tree once stood.  In my travels and research through both the Elizabethian Gardens and the National Historic Park I have never come across any markers or plaques referring to this tree.  In addition, the Visitors center in the National Historic Park has little information about the tree itself, or where it may have been located in the forrest. Also , if the tree was still intact in 1981 when the casque was buried, then there has to be some record of where the tree was located.  If it was felled by a hurricane or other means after 1981, I would think that at least a local newspaper would have reported on it.  The tree  is after all, a significant historic artifact, and its loss would have been newsworthy.

Kato, that's exactly my point, and why I am so suspicious of this story I was fed. But even if the tree wasn't the *real* CRO tree, there might have been *something* there (if the gardener is to be believed) that motivated BP to bury the casque there. And yes, that is my memory of its location, but it is fading after 5 years. Anyone who goes there now can take my photo with them and confirm the precise spot.

This does sound logical now take it to the next  step Lets say its a tree, whether or not original wouldnt matter only that BP chose to use it. In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Look north at the wing And dig If its a tree then by saying look north at the wing and dig. would indicate to me the casque is buried north of the tree. if you were on the south side of the tree and looked north you would see the tree... So back to the tree looking north dig.

My point exactly.  Thanks for posting that for me wilhouse.  If the fabled tree...or one that the gardens claimed to be the tree were located....just get on the north side of the tree and dig.  Right there at the base of the tree. If that is not possible, than perhaps when gazing north, you would see an obvious spot to dig.

I see only one problem in all of this regarding a tree:  if the tree we seek is inside the Elizabethian Gardens, then digging the casque out from under it is going to be a problem.  It has be noted by others in this thread that the Gardens are privately owned and operated.  Permission to dig seems sure to be a problem, unless your proofs are full proof and point to the exact location without doubt.  Otherwise,I don't think permission to dig in the Gardens will be forthcoming. The other thing that bugs me is whether BP would have buried the casque inside the Gardens at all, considering they are privately owned and would get all kinds of people upset if treasure hunters just started digging up the place. As a result, I have tended to shy away from the Gardens as the treasure site, and feel it is more likely that the casque was buried on the adjacent public lands of the National Historic site.  Less people, more acerage, more privacy, and presumably easier to dig up without having the local police respond.  Still, it is surley illegal today under Federal law to dig up and remove anything from the National Historic site as well.  Who knows what artifacts may be disturbed, etc.

I wanted to avoid this verse and image 3. Now it's nabbed up what's left of my brain. I'm finding some ridiculous chess references.  The T-shaped knight looks chess piece like on that pedestal. I decided the line "to mica and driftwood" was too innocent.  Mica is a common component of plaster.  Looking at spots around the Roanoke area I had to wonder if Rodanthe (flower petals) could be alluded to as "the Rodin" (pronounced like Rodan).  Auguste Rodin would use plasters in his sculptural career.  I viewed his work often at the Jordan Schnitzer museum on the Oregon campus.  It's probably too elaborate to consider Rodanthe = "Rodin, the".  The next couple named areas along the road are Waves (driftwood?) and Salvo (meaning simultaneous cannon fire).  On the west shore is a T-shaped harbor called Blackmar Gut.  This reminded me of the brave and aggressive chess gambit opening (1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3...) the Blackmar-Diemer.  Is that ridiculous, plausible? Then I start to see things.  A feature north of this harbor looks like the belly (gut) and legs portion of the fairy turned 90 degrees counterclockwise. I might venture a guess about where to dig:  "Look North at the wing and dig", perhaps you must stand at the south side of the telephone pole, looking north and dig on that south side.  See this streetview image of the Blackmar Gut harbor looking westward. Notice now the similarity of the knights propped arms to this particular Telephone pole.

yes I do see that similarity, but what are the odds that in 1981 that pole or a pole with the similar support or power requirements stood there. was there even anything building, bench, pole in that spot back then?

The odds are certainly something.  Poles are replaced very infrequently.  Storm damage and time are the main considerations here.  Lines have probably been replaced, but utility poles tend to be very well treated with that pitchy black preservation stuff.  There is going to be a code stamp on the pole itself.  I found a historical record on the site that might support little having been changed since the 50's.  Will try to find that later.

Dark forest Does that simply refer to Roanoke?  Roan - dark (tan) color + "oak"? Malted, that pole is leaning, what if that is because BP dug a big hole there!? What if, Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing, Is having to do with 'touched with a ten foot pole?' or 'reach out and touch someone' might fit the pole or telephone idea?

Does that simply refer to Roanoke?  Roan - dark (tan) color + "oak"? Well certainly the next lines do where white is in color... with two maps after circle and square. Also it says look north at the wing. not toward the wing. So from wherever you are you need to see "the wing" whatever that is...

I imagined the wing as the soth pointing part of the telephone pole.

I always thought this was our wing.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well certainly the next lines do where white is in color... with two maps after circle and square I don't get those lines.  How do they work?

There have been several theories about these: 7  Where white is in color 8  With two maps 9  After circle and square I think lines 7 and 8 go together. John White drew color pictures of the Roanoke area, including color maps: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roanoke_map_1584.JPG ...so this is yet another instance of BP's clever wordplay. White's paintings and drawings can be found all over the place there, including on markers stuck into the ground (some of them with "two maps" on them). Line 9 may go with the line after it. Or "circle and square" may represent "1 and 4" because of the number of sides on these shapes (a trick he has used elsewhere).

Wow, that is staggering and juicy at the same time.  I was looking right at that map earlier and didnt even consider its maker.  John White was Virginia Dare's grandfather.  His work is huge in Outer Banks history and not without contreversy.  Wonder where all those marker signs you mentioned were located in 1980.

Pretty sure they were located where I saw them -- the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail (from which one may "Look north at the wing / and dig..."

which also has a square parking lot next to a traffic circle

Here is a photograph of a sign that might be the "Two Maps". It is located on a "Path" that begins in the northwest corner of a "Square" parking area accessed from a traffice "circle".

Hi Paul - thanks for your great research on this trail so far. So, this sign... ...is at (1) on this map. I was wondering about interpreting the verse something like this: There's a road that leads to Dark forest The road out of the parking lot Where white is in color In the place where there are White watercolours With two maps These two, or another two...I guess these could pass as maps, or the maps could have been in the Visitor Center. Where's this one BTW...? After circle and square Parking lot In July and August Monument A path beckons To mica and driftwood Maybe the same as the "road that leads to dark forest" - the road out of the parking area...? Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Not known. I was playing with ideas like "stone post"... last - last post touched - touchstone first - first post standing - standing stone I guess the stone pillar in the pic has made me biased.  ;) Look north at the wing And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal Kitty Hawk confirmer for the general area - perhaps also something else which might be "wing-like". (I don't suppose there is/was some kind of barrier arm round here...?) Another very random idea...crown/king/parking...? You mentioned the gazebo - I was quite keen on that at one time, used to ramble on about it here but I've always been a bit dubious about burying things behind a ticket barrier, and I'm starting to prefer the area around the visitor center and the road leading out of the parking lot. What kind of terrain does it pass through...? Are there any walls, fences, stone pillars to be seen round here...? (Re: your query about month / birth flower / birthstone, it's not known how these fit into the solutions, and they might not. They weren't used for the first two, although they're an interesting possibility. I quite like January/Janus/God of doorways.)

I think "two maps" is more likely to refer to something like this:

Do you know the physical location of this sign. I have not found this one inside Fort Raleigh NHS. Thanks

It is at the beach end of the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail, in the Ft. Raleigh park. This is the spot from which you can look north and literally see the "wing" of the Wright Brothers memorial with the naked eye, if you know where to look. I think the casque is here somewhere, and I'd give a lot to know what those two sawed-off posts once supported.

This is well away from the quotes though, Forest - there are other signs and White watercolours including maps at the Fort Raleigh Visitor Center....

There's a road that leads to Dark forest Where white is in color With two maps After circle and square In July and August A path beckons I find a lot in this verse that seems... oddly ordered. "There's a road that leads to / Dark forest" I totally get, since there's a road that leads to the plaque on the EG's front wall that contains the words "dark forest" on it. However, "Where white is in color" would lead us instead next-door, to the Fort Raleigh visitor's center. "With two maps" could refer to the location of the "two maps" mentioned in the previous line, or it could form a part of the next, separate part of the verse "With two maps / After circle and square." This would put us back in the EG or in the parking lot, depending on your persuasion. But the next lines "In July and August / A path beckons" puts us now behind the Ft. Raleigh visitor's center with that memorial stone.

Excuse me for a moment, I can't recall where I read that White drew a map with a feature that other maps didnt have.  It was a false cape or something.  It isn't there now, but geographers discovered proof that it was there at some point and White was the only one to have accurately mapped it.  Maybe that instance was the reason for the "two maps" reference...there's HIS map and then there's someone elses.  Anyone come across that reference?

forest_blight wrote:: It is at the beach end of the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail, in the Ft. Raleigh park. This is the spot from which you can look north and literally see the "wing" of the Wright Brothers memorial with the naked eye, if you know where to look. I think the casque is here somewhere, and I'd give a lot to know what those two sawed-off posts once supported. I'm with FB on this one.  This is 1 of 2 spots I believe the casque to be....the other being out at the gate.  Ah those infamous sawed off posts....indeed, what did they once support?  Probably one of our visual confirmers in the I.

OK, if y'all like this place, can you put a cross on a map so we can see where it is and how you get there...? The thing that strikes me about the final wing quote is that Kitty Hawk is a pretty obvious local landmark, so by the time you've got to Roanoke and figured out the Wright Brothers reference in the first line, it's not going to be a "wow" moment, a revelation, at the end. It's not like you're going to think: "OK, so I've solved all these obscure references to local signposts and monuments, and...hang on...look north at the wing! It's Kitty Hawk!" It's too obvious to be used like that. I see it as a "rumble, brush and music hush"-style overview. Otherwise, why not just skip straight to the last line and ignore the rest? This place has no image matches either, and I'm definitely not buying the "maybe there used to be" argument. There are loads of maps. The water gate makes more sense to me than this place at the moment if you want a beach location, but I'm told it's off limits. I'd still like to get a photo of it from the beach side.

WR, this location has been discussed to death, repeatedly. There are maps galore if you trawl back through the posts. It is at the northwest corner of the Fort Raleigh NHS, just east of the Water Gate at the Elizabethan Gardens. Past the wooden rail is a steep, brambly descent to the beach interrupted by a rusty fence to keep tourists way from the protected beach. On their lunch break, some EG groundskeepers showed me a way to the beach through the woods where we could slip between fence wires and sink our toes in the sand. So the beach is only as "off-limits" as you let it be. What really draws me to this particular spot is that there was a path (the Hariot trail) "beckoning" me toward driftwood (a.k.a., the beach), so I took it and wound up at a place where I could quite literally look north at the wing (the Wright Brothers monument being a stylized, art deco wing -- see pictures). I feel strongly that if there is a casque on Roanoke, it must be on the very northern tip within spitting distance of the beach itself. There are lots of trees there, so the only place one could look north toward Kitty Hawk is right there at the beach, like at this overlook. I am not often given to wild unsubstantiated theories (who among us is?), but I make an exception for this spot. It's an ideal location to bury a casque, and I think whatever sign or info-display those posts supported in the 1980s had some of White's color maps on it and some supportive text that would finally explain the  "under that which..." stanza that has plagued my dreams for 8 years. If I ever meet St. Peter the first thing I'm asking him is what the hell those words mean.

Thomas Harriot (Hariot) was an astronomer who made the first moon maps using a telescope he called a "Dutch trunk." This is from one of the sites that discusses the trail: Perhaps the most intriguing attraction is the most understated – the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail. Named after a scientist on Grenville’s expedition, it’s a nature trail with a twist – signs along the way point out what the explorers survived on in the absence of supplies from England. The trail leads to a peaceful soundside beach, the perfect spot to ponder the challenges the colonists faced

forest_blight wrote:: I am not often given to wild unsubstantiated theories (who among us is?) Unknown: Perhaps the most intriguing attraction is the most understated – the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail. Named after a scientist on Grenville’s expedition, it’s a nature trail with a twist – signs along the way point out what the explorers survived on in the absence of supplies from England. The trail leads to a peaceful soundside beach, the perfect spot to ponder the challenges the colonists faced. lol. OK, sounds cool. What do you reckon Paul...? I like the fact he was an astronomer...are these telescopes...? Your goal Goal...goalposts...between two posts...?

WhiteRabbit wrote:: lol. OK, sounds cool. What do you reckon Paul...? I like the fact he was an astronomer...are these telescopes...? Your goal Goal...goalposts...between two posts...? The black meatal objects are small cannons. They are replicas of small guns that would have been mounted on the ships that brought the settlers to the New world. They have a special name that I need to look up. I will get back to you with that. Over the next few days I will photograph the beach area outside the Water Gate and along the beach inside the park. Keep in mind that the Wing can be seen from just about every spot along the edge of the park. I have discovered an intersting alignment using the two maps (that I found), the Dare monument, and the wing. Standing at the two maps location the dare monument is visible to the south, and just over a dune is the wing to the north. just west of that line, and looking toward the beach is a palisade type wall that surounds the theater. I am going to try and match the image to anything,,, something allong that wall. More news in a few days.

welcome paul and im looking forword, to the info you get from your walk around the pk,hopefully something will click and say dig here

cw0909 wrote:: welcome paul and im looking forword, to the info you get from your walk around the pk,hopefully something will click and say dig here Thanks for the welcome! I will be in the park until after Easter. So... if you have any ideas to investigate feel free to let me know and I will be your eyes. Best regards!

(Cheers Paul.) More random ideas...circle and square on the bells...clappers...audience...? First seen standing, last touched (emotionally) Still waiting for my copy of the Lost Colony play via an inter-library loan...

Don't discount that there is also a prominent "circle and square" in the Eliz. gardens themselves. And a path that wanders into the woods right next to them. And see my rant in "Image 9" about the verses not being linear.

As long as you are wandering around the area Paul, get together with as many staff members as you can and find out once and for all what the 2 posts once held.

...and any chance you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of the play...?? I'm dying to know if it sheds any light on "last touched" or "first seen standing"...

a topo of Fort Raleigh National Historic Site, im not sure which tower paul is talking about hxxp://tinyurl.com/7dc4n98

WR -- I've read the play cover to cover, and nothing Secret-related leapt out at me.

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I noted what looks like a pallisade with a cross above it. (See photo) Has anyone explored the connection to the pallisade that is around the Waterside Theater? ...sounds interesting, but I don't have much idea what this area looks like. Would it be possible to take a few photos in a circle from your "two maps" location so we can see what you're seeing...? I'm particularly interested in the possibilities of the circle and square you suggested around the parking lot. (Are you saying it's still possible to see the wing this far inland...?) There are plenty of circle and square hints in the image. Each casque held a key. This key is hanging off a circle. I've only just noticed what looks like a second metal object hanging to the left of it above. Might the three connections to this keyring represent three junctions from the circular road? dauntless and inconquerable Dauntless, or daring, reminds me of Dare Ave which runs alongside this circle and square. Unfortunately Google maps has no access to these roads.  :-[

Only have a minute and wanted to add to the "things hanging." Hanging off a horizontal line to the right of the window is Roanoke Island (the land by the window). Just to the right of the island, and the only other thing hanging off that line, seems to be the Hariot Trail.

..and the key on the right appears to be attached to a magnet. If the right hand is raised this would pull the string and then the key would fall onto the handle of the spoon and flip the pea. Hitting the larger bell?

wk wrote:: ..and the key on the right appears to be attached to a magnet. If the right hand is raised this would pull the string and then the key would fall onto the handle of the spoon and flip the pea. Hitting the larger bell? Sounds very Rube Goldberg.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Only have a minute and wanted to add to the "things hanging." Hanging off a horizontal line to the right of the window is Roanoke Island (the land by the window). Just to the right of the island, and the only other thing hanging off that line, seems to be the Hariot Trail. Sounds interesting but we'd need the pics. I'm not doing all the donkey work for you.  ;)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Sounds interesting but we'd need the pics. I'm not doing all the donkey work for you.  ;)

I see that similarity.  Is that park boundary a physical wall?

erexere wrote:: I see that similarity.  Is that park boundary a physical wall? I went over to Dare Road. The road that runs next to the park. I spent some time looking around. The park has a chain link fence running along it's boundary. There is very little space bettween the fence and paved road. on the other side is a row of houses. Same at the end. There are four houses that seem to own the beach access too. I saw nothing that I could link to the image or verse. I will post some photos I took along the water front and near the Water Gate behind the Elisabethan Gardens. Cheers to all!

forest_blight wrote:: On their lunch break, some EG groundskeepers showed me a way to the beach through the woods where we could slip between fence wires (Thanks Hirudiniforme, I see what you mean.) P ass two friends of octave I n December R ide the man of oz T o the land near the window I'm drawn to this TRIP, or RIP. Tripwires...? Does the fence look anything like this Forest...? (Without the bells obviously.) Notice how the equal spacing between the wires is continued in the wall design. There's just too many weird shapes in this image. This one reminds me of a doorbell.

BINGO!? These are old fashioned glass insolated wire resistors from a telephone pole.

I should have taken a picture of the fence -- I don't remember much about it. I vaguely remember it being made of horizontal wires and us slipping between some wires while another person held it. But that might have been one of my many other misdemeanor trespass adventures.

I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there's nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious "last touched" is a flag. ("Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.") I guess that might also pass for "first seen standing". I wondered about the flagstones or "flags" that appear in the image....I always had this idea about one of the casques being buried under a stone slab. From Hirudiniforme's pics I can see how the path to mica and driftwood could lead naturally on from the Fort Raleigh "circle and square". If I was on Roanoke I'd definitely want to walk the Hariot Trail and look out for wire fences like this with a view of the wing, especially for any leaning posts or paving slabs. Any chance of taking an afternoon off Paul...?  :)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there's nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious "last touched" is a flag. ("Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.") I guess that might also pass for "first seen standing". I wondered about the flagstones or "flags" that appear in the image....I always had this idea about one of the casques being buried under a stone slab. From Hirudiniforme's pics I can see how the path to mica and driftwood could lead naturally on from the Fort Raleigh "circle and square". If I was on Roanoke I'd definitely want to walk the Hariot Trail and look out for wire fences like this with a view of the wing, especially for any leaning posts or paving slabs. Any chance of taking an afternoon off Paul...?  :) I will have some photos done in the next few days. I wll try to look at all these recent posts and see if I can come up with something for each idea.

Thanks Paul. I see the Nature Trail has a series of signs with quotes from Hariot's Briefe and True Report . I'd be interested to get the texts from these. (I wonder if the missing sign was one of them.) Here's the frontispiece to Hariot's report. The column...? The hanging bells? The book was illustrated by Theodor de Bry . I imagine BP could have obtained a copy. The same illustration seems to have been used as the title page for de Bry's "Grand Voyages", and a higher resolution version can be seen here . I wonder if any of the signs in this area show Theodore's illustrations, or even that particular image.

at this link is a pic of a Hans Schultes counters, or jettons,the symbols on the reverse,look like the ones on the armor,close to bottom of pg hxxp://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... /hh16h.htm from the same article a 1960 map hxxp://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... hh16g1.jpg

do we think BP,knew for sure he was on NHS land,if he did this narrows the size of the acreage,that he buried the casque, to only 335 acres,instead of 838.24,i think from reading this pdf,it would have been much easier,to bury the casque,back in 81-82,in fact you prob could today without much prob,from what ive read,below is where i got the acreage figure,a very informative read there is a current map of area,with markers marked,in the pdf help with measuring the area,there is a survey,tab with a drag box,drag the corners the Egarden and fort pk hxxp://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=2002 1961: Public Law 87-147 Public Law 87-147, issued on August 17, 1961, authorized the NPS to acquire additional lands (approximately 125 acres) to be administered as part of Fort Raleigh NHS. In doing so, the law further defined the purpose of the site: “to preserve, as part of the Fort Raleigh NHS, lands historically associated with the attempt to establish an English colony on Roanoke Island…” 1990: Public Law 101-603, 104 Stat. 3065 Additionally, this law authorized the expansion of the land area of Fort Raleigh NHS by approximately 335 acres to a total authorized acreage of 512.93 acres. This new authorized boundary defines the area from which the NPS may purchase lands from willing owners if funds are available. As of 2008, the NPS had purchased approximately 202 additional acres beyond the site’s 1960s-era boundary; the remainder of the authorized acreage is owned by the State of North Carolina (18.09 acres) and by private owners (129.39 acres). The state property, managed by ------------------- Archeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA) Protection of archeological resources is a concern for the park’s known and yet-to-be known cultural resources. Relic hunting has been witnessed in the park, which distracts from the archeological record. This illicit activity detracts from the park’s ability to perform its legislated mandate of conducting “research on the history and archeology of the historic site and the associated peoples and events.” 24-Hour Park The superintendent’s compendium currently allows for Fort Raleigh NHS to be accessible on a 24-hour basis, which invites violations of federal and local laws. It is recommended conducted by the Roanoke Island Historical Association the North Carolina Department of Transportation, borders the US 64/264 highway corridor at Weir Point. Much of the privately owned acreage has been or is being developed into housing subdivisions (Heritage Point, Croatan Woods, etc.). Copies of the Secretarial Order and Public Laws are provided in Appendix B. hxxp://www.nps.gov/hfc/pdf/ip/2010-05-1 ... cument.pdf

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Thanks Paul. I see the Nature Trail has a series of signs with quotes from Hariot's Briefe and True Report . I'd be interested to get the texts from these. (I wonder if the missing sign was one of them.) Here's the frontispiece to Hariot's report. The column...? The hanging bells? The book was illustrated by Theodor de Bry . I imagine BP could have obtained a copy. The same illustration seems to have been used as the title page for de Bry's "Grand Voyages", and a higher resolution version can be seen here . I wonder if any of the signs in this area show Theodore's illustrations, or even that particular image. I have posted a number of photos for all to see. click on this link and enjoy. Any comments and/or suggestions would be nice. I am happy to be your eyes in the field. Maybe we will find this thing. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 176347805/

Fantastic, thanks Paul!  :) Considering the spoon in the image, I was interested to see one of the signs mentions " spoon leaf Yucca"... Four21thrasher previously mentioned the stuff, but I hadn't seen it written down. The sign looks quite faded, but I'm wondering if the weird spiky red design in the picture might be the leaves...? "Spoonleaf Yucca for clothing"...

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I have posted a number of photos for all to see. click on this link and enjoy. Any comments and/or suggestions would be nice. I am happy to be your eyes in the field. Maybe we will find this thing. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 176347805/ Here is a link to the Hariot report. It is a modern english version. I will look for the origianal. hxxp://www.nps.gov/fora/forteachers/tho ... report.htm

the other side of gate hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 176442943/ thank you paul

Thanks a lot, Paul. The images are great; and, they a great contribution to the Internet as pictures of the signage were previously unavailable. One of the signs - the Cedar sign - caught my eye with its mention of breadspreads(?)... "first touched, last seen standing"... WR - I like the yucca as clothing idea.

...I also like Erexere's insulator idea a lot...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: ...I also like Erexere's insulator idea a lot... You cant help but notice that great comparison.  Even in 1981 that style of insulated resistor was antique.  Wherever this place is, its remote enough and historic enough that they didnt get around to updating their wires much...its been long enough now It would be unlikely they are still around.  At least it supports my Telephone Pole theory. As for Roanoke, I dont support that as a location for a casque.  I see it as a clearly outlined image like the Terminal Tower in Cleveland, just a ways down the "road" from the treasure ground.  In this case its a ferry ride and a small drive to Rodanthe where we find the belly of the fairy.

erexere wrote:: As for Roanoke, I dont support that as a location for a casque. I know, but the rest of us do, and there's someone who's actually there, so it's worth focussing on for a while. I like the insulators as that's something you could get under, as the verse describes. Glass...mica glass...dunno. Worth looking out for those things though. The whole image might represent a telegraph pole.

Yeah, the new flood of pictures and research is great.  I tried to understand the connections to that area better but I cant get convinced.  Its not that i have other ideas getting in the way.  The only part that i like is the bead on Kill Devil Hills FB talked about. My big question is where does the window come in?  The window behind the cruciform has to fit into place.  Any windows around there?  Maybe a little roadside vendor of antique junk or a museum building that looks out east towards KDH?

Now you've got the book, study the nationality angle. Roanoke is closely associated with the English. KDH and Rodanthe aren't.

More importantly, "pass two friends of Octave" (the Wright Brothers), "ride the man of Oz" (ride the Baum ferry), "to the land near the window", which is the outline of Roanoke island... It's a very good fit.

bigmattyh wrote:: More importantly, "pass two friends of Octave" (the Wright Brothers), "ride the man of Oz" (ride the Baum ferry), "to the land near the window", which is the outline of Roanoke island... It's a very good fit. Yes, really good fit. WR, the English connecton I get but it doesnt mean Roanoke has to be the home of a casque.  I think the ferry to Roanoke is the start of the journey and establishes a crossing over to Outer Banks hiighwaaay 12 where you can look North at the wing as you go south to Rodanthe.

um....in the interest of accuracy, The Baum Ferry was not built or delivered to the state of North Carolina until 1995 and it does not run to Roanoke Island. The TA Baum ferry runs from Cape Hatteras to Ocracoke, well south of Roanoke Island. The ferry LINE in North Carolina was operational in 1947, when the NC Highway commission bought the T.A. BAUM's ferry COMPANY . At that time, the single ferry ran from Manns Harbor to Roanoke Island. Today, no ferry connect Roanoke I. with anything. Instead, there are two bridges--one of which is probably the same as that first ferry route. The correct Baum item is the Washington-Baum Bridge--which connects the outer banks to Roanoke island on the other  (East) side of the island. The route is US 64--this route connect Roanoke Island to the Mainland via the Virginia Dare Memorial Bridge. .

Unknown: I like the insulators as that's something you could get under, as the verse describes. Glass...mica glass...dunno. Worth looking out for those things though. The whole image might represent a telegraph pole. This has a lot of merit, although there is no such thing as "mica glass". Perhaps you meant "isinglass". Either way, mica is primarily used as an electrical component and insulator, so seeing those bell-like objects as electrical insulators is actually a leap of logic I can get behind. I saw that figure's outstretched arms in two ways: (1) as wings. Especially wings on an older airplane, i.e. the Wright Flyer. I also saw them as a "bridge" from one "outer bank" to another (the borders of the image itself.) This is the only image that has any object sitting "outside" it's own borders. The telegraph pole  is a very good idea as well. They also resemble a mast, which doesn't have to mean a mast ON a ship. The mast is actually only the vertical part--the boom is the part that crosses it. Any long tall structure with a boom can be a mast. I also thought that the objects you call insulators were bells--it made sense to me because Bell is a well-known aviation firm, though they are better known for their helicopters than anything else. So, BTW, is IMP Group Ltd., a Canadian Aerospace manufacturer. That little imp dangling under the carnation... The spoon with the pea:  Pea Island is part of this area in the Outer Banks.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: ...I also like Erexere's insulator idea a lot... I looked at every power pole along Dare Raod and inside the park. No glass insulators. That does not mean that back in 1981/2 there were none, just not today!

Fantastic work Paul, thanks for the pictures.  It is great having feet on the ground at this location.  Now, if only, you could poke around and see what "used to be" on those 2 cut down posts at the overlook.  This sure looks like a prime spot for a casque.l

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I looked at every power pole along Dare Raod and inside the park. No glass insulators. That does not mean that back in 1981/2 there were none, just not today! Unknown: the gate swung on its rusty hinges. Being at last touched Hmm, that's a shame. Still, with all those hanging wires... ...and cross-like shapes... I still like this idea. Any telegraph poles with diagonal supporting struts...? Are there any telegraph poles at all visible along the Hariot trail...? Here's another possible telephone hint. (Erexere - don't tell anyone, but I got that idea from P179. Check it out.) Taking another look at that top image, another thing that strikes me is how it resembles a series of uprights with a loop on top, and the key is one of them. Could be telegraph poles, or something completely different, like the posts of a wire fence...or even that water gate. - Great Expectations First seen standing would be "gait". (Very random, just throwing it out there.) It's great to get a picture of it from the other side at last, and I see it has a wire fence. I suppose you could look for a match in the brickwork. (Not saying there is one.)

shecrab wrote:: They also resemble a mast One of the signs is for "firre trees fit for masts of ships, some very tall and great".

I see why people like that sign with its two maps, including one by White. Can I just confirm, that Paul's photo... ...shows this specific sign...? (There's no other copy...?) And can we be sure that those sawn-off stumps didn't look the same in BP's day...? Maybe the picture shows them as they are. Are there any other distinguishing features...? Fences, poles, steps, wires...? It would be interesting to get a better overview of this area, and that railing. Perhaps it has goalpost potential ("your goal"). Is there any way you could dig under it...? You could make "last touched" / "first seen standing" fit just about anything you wanted really. The log that lies across it would be "first seen standing", and I've always had an idea that "last touched" might be a pun on "touched by a last" (as used for shoemaking, see below), which could be leather, wood...might make more sense if the museum had an exhibit about footwear or something. A key is hanging off this unidentified shape. A last ...? As Thomas explained, "There is Shoemake well knowen, and vsed in England for blacke"

erexere wrote:: Yeah, the new flood of pictures and research is great.  I tried to understand the connections to that area better but I cant get convinced.  Its not that i have other ideas getting in the way.  The only part that i like is the bead on Kill Devil Hills FB talked about. My big question is where does the window come in?  The window behind the cruciform has to fit into place.  Any windows around there?  Maybe a little roadside vendor of antique junk or a museum building that looks out east towards KDH? I went over to Jockey Ridge State Park the other day. I found a referance to mica that might help. The sand all around the OBX is filled with minerals including a soft type of mica called Biottie. That might lock in the mica and driftwood. With the mica refering to sand. I also looked up mica and noted that the Latin form means grain perhaps as in a grain of sand.

Paul Kitchen wrote:: With the mica refering to sand. erexere wrote:: My big question is where does the window come in? Unknown: The name of muscovite comes from Muscovy-glass, a name formerly used for the mineral because of its use in Russia for windows. I'm sure that's right. A path beckons To m ica Tom - Thomas Hariot...? Here's the White map from that sign. Maybe we've overlooked an image match. Brainstorming... Ride the man of oz To the land near the window We know this means Roanoke, but perhaps it means more. The "man of oz" is Baum, from "tree". I keep thinking "mica" might connect with "window". "Common mica" is also called "Muscovite". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite Does this sign have a glass front...? Looks like it might... Could "the land near the window" mean the ground near a glass-fronted sign...? Does the "two maps" sign look like it might ever have been glass-fronted...?

Maybe youre on to something. After circle and square, could refer to the eye, which is a circular view, to the glass or map which is a square view.

erexere wrote:: Maybe youre on to something. After circle and square, could refer to the eye, which is a circular view, to the glass or map which is a square view. Help me here. What would you suggest I look for. I allways feel that each clue needs to lead to a physical thing or another clue that leads to another clue or physical thing. And, on and on and on......

Hi Paul, Most of us believe we're looking for "confirmers" -- visual clues near the casque site that are painted somewhere in the image. For example, there might be some object -- or something on a sign -- near the burial site that has some detail from the suit of armor, like that "baseball" pattern on the left shoulder, or the hook hanging off of his right arm.  Or there could be some distinctive, clear outline in the stonework (although that might be harder to spot!).  We don't know what it'll be until we see it.  The image is all we have to go on. This is the pattern that the other successful hunts took, so it's likely we'll see something like it in this one, too. Thanks for joining in the hunt with us!

Paul Kitchen wrote:: What would you suggest I look for. I allways feel that each clue needs to lead to a physical thing or another clue that leads to another clue or physical thing. And, on and on and on. More sign brainstorming... Determination Your goal This isn't from the Kitty Hawk quote. Does it have a message...? Maybe the goal is "Determination", or: Determine nation Your goal ...in this case, the "nation" is England. Ride the man of oz The man of oz is Baum, meaning "tree". How do you ride a tree...? In a dugout. ************************************************ As shecrab recently said, these verses aren't necessarily in a logical order. The verse and the image will probably contain clues for the general area, and clues for a very specific spot, but it's not easy to tell which is which. The line which most accurately pinpoints the location might be some cryptic hint in the middle of the verse, or even at the beginning. The Hariot Trail seems to hold a lot of possible clues; almost too many. It seems to me there are various lines which could be interpreted as a cryptic hint for this or that sign. The question then is, is it practical to dig there, is there any obvious reference point like a wall or fence or pole. Is there a "site confirmer", a picture of something specific close to the dig spot (which might possibly be disguised or hard to identify), and does the location seem to fit the instructions in the verse in a general way. At the moment, the "overlook" is the only point where most of us have seen an overview. Can you see the "wing" from near any of the other signs...? I don't think that should be regarded as absolutely essential, but it's definitely a strong indicator. Alternatively, can you see something like a telegraph pole, even in the distance...? The cross shape and hanging wires seem to be a dominant idea in the image. In terms of "site confirmers" in the verse, hints for a specific place given in the verse, I quite like the "window" idea and panes of glass...if any of these signs have panes of glass...? That's something that appears in both the verse and the image. (Thanks for your help and patience! It's much appreciated.)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: More sign brainstorming... Determination Your goal This isn't from the Kitty Hawk quote. Does it have a message...? Maybe the goal is "Determination", or: Determine nation Your goal ...in this case, the "nation" is England. Ride the man of oz The man of oz is Baum, meaning "tree". How do you ride a tree...? In a dugout. ************************************************ As shecrab recently said, these verses aren't necessarily in a logical order. The verse and the image will probably contain clues for the general area, and clues for a very specific spot, but it's not easy to tell which is which. The line which most accurately pinpoints the location might be some cryptic hint in the middle of the verse, or even at the beginning. The Hariot Trail seems to hold a lot of possible clues; almost too many. It seems to me there are various lines which could be interpreted as a cryptic hint for this or that sign. The question then is, is it practical to dig there, is there any obvious reference point like a wall or fence or pole. Is there a "site confirmer", a picture of something specific close to the dig spot (which might possibly be disguised or hard to identify), and does the location seem to fit the instructions in the verse in a general way. At the moment, the "overlook" is the only point where most of us have seen an overview. Can you see the "wing" from near any of the other signs...? I don't think that should be regarded as absolutely essential, but it's definitely a strong indicator. Alternatively, can you see something like a telegraph pole, even in the distance...? The cross shape and hanging wires seem to be a dominant idea in the image. In terms of "site confirmers" in the verse, hints for a specific place given in the verse, I quite like the "window" idea and panes of glass...if any of these signs have panes of glass...? That's something that appears in both the verse and the image. (Thanks for your help and patience! It's much appreciated.) Thanks for all the help and advise. I feel very good today becasue I met the right person to gain access to the achives here in the park. My goal is to look at anything I can that might show how the park looked in 1981/2. I know that there is a lot of interest in the old sign that might have been at the overlook. I will dig into that and anything else that might help. Also, I met a team of treasue hunters today! Great fun to have talked with them and share ideas. Thanks for the book!!!!! Stay tuned for more help. Also, please let me know if there are any other things I should be looking for in the achives. Best regards to all!

hi paul,when you have time,could you get pics of the wall,on the right of this pic and the end of that wall,that is on the right,im wondering if it cuts off inside at a 90 or a 45 degree angle,and the length of the wall,as it goes toward the ocean,the entrance to the garden reminds me of the armor mans belt this pic gate and wall hxxp://www.bayislandphotography.com/keyword/elizabethan%20gardens#!i=1141022136&k=kNtN5&lb=1&s=XL entrance hxxp://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge ... o_600x.jpg fixed link

Just did a search to check, nobody seems to have mentioned yet that the image looks similar to a man in a chariot.  C_hariot trail?

erexere wrote:: Just did a search to check, nobody seems to have mentioned yet that the image looks similar to a man in a chariot.  C_hariot trail? I have been asked to post photographs of the wall around the Eleizabethan Garden. They are posted @ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 176347805/ When facing the entance to the garden the wall extends out in both directions the left side runs about fourty feet then turns 45 degrees back away from the front wall. It is plain and can only be accessed on the outside of the gardens. The wall extending to the right also runs abour fourty feet before turning right at 90 degress and extends out about sixty feet. Both sides of the wall can bee accessed without entering the gardens. The right side walls include the iron gate and wall plaque that has the qoute concerning the "Dark Forest".

Four21thrasher posted up a comparison between the Hariot Trail and a shape in the image, but on the only other map I've seen it looks different. Has it changed, or is one of the maps wrong...?  ??? (It might be interesting to see what is at the point where Four21thrasher's map intersects with the line it's hanging from.)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Four21thrasher posted up a comparison between the Hariot Trail and a shape in the image, but on the only other map I've seen it looks different. Has it changed, or is one of the maps wrong...?  ??? (It might be interesting to see what is at the point where Four21thrasher's map intersects with the line it's hanging from.) The image on the left is exactly like that in the current park information. I do not know where the image on the right came from, however, it is a better representation of how the trail actually lies on the land. I think you are right that The Secret image does look like one or both of those pictured, but more like that on the left. I examined Harriot Trail again today. It does seem to loop, coming out at about the same point. I will be in the achives on Wed. so I will look for older documents, from 1981/2, that might show the trail then. I will also be looking at the armor that is there. Apparently, some armor was on display in the late 1970's/early 80's. I have lots of work to do! Best regards to all!

So what is under that armor?  Ive thought it was a giant flower with red petals.  Theres already a white flower depicted...why a second flower?  Or is it the red fabric of clothing, drapery, theater curtains, a parachute, balloon?

Paul Kitchen wrote:: The image on the left is exactly like that in the current park information. I do not know where the image on the right came from, however, it is a better representation of how the trail actually lies on the land. I think you are right that The Secret image does look like one or both of those pictured, but more like that on the left. I examined Harriot Trail again today. It does seem to loop, coming out at about the same point. I will be in the achives on Wed. so I will look for older documents, from 1981/2, that might show the trail then. I will also be looking at the armor that is there. Apparently, some armor was on display in the late 1970's/early 80's. I have lots of work to do! Best regards to all! Great, thanks Paul. I found that other map here . I like the Hariot Trail, and info about the "missing sign", if that's what it was, would be interesting. But there's not going to have been anything on it that would tell us where to dig, and there's already enough reason to consider the overlook a possible dig site, so in a way it's not all that significant. The key is finding somewhere that looks plausible/practical and looking for possible visual confirmers at a spot where you could plant a spade. I was wondering if it might have been possible to dig under that rail...does it extend much further...? I'd be interested to see some more photos of this area next time you visit...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I like the Hariot Trail, and info about the "missing sign", if that's what it was, would be interesting. But there's not going to have been anything on it that would tell us where to dig, and there's already enough reason to consider the overlook a possible dig site, so in a way it's not all that significant. That missing sign could be very significant, depending on what's on it.  Best case scenario, the text says something about "last touched" or "first seen" or something to that effect.  Maybe an element or two from the image as site confirmers.

So what though? You can't dig up the sign. If there's somewhere to dig at the overlook, the clue for that is in the pic, and it's something else. So the sign could have more clues - well, there's enough clues already. Whatever it said is irrelevant.

Again, this is pointing out the obvious, ad nauseum, but the only confirmed casque locations we know about had literal visual confirmers at the dig site (the wall and the fence).  If there was something on that sign that matches something in the image, that's important.  If it doesn't, no big deal -- we can cross it off the unresolved issues list. But hey, if you have all the answers, go dig up the casque already.

Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in the possibility that there might once have been a sign there, but look what we've got already... After circle and square In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood It looks as though this could have taken you from the circle and square of the parking lot, past where the "In July and August" monument used to be, to the Hariot Trail. Where white is in color With two maps Look north at the wing And dig The two solved casques were pinpointed by the verse rather than the image. I don't think we can assume they all are, but either way, I don't see how the sign (if there was a sign) could help to pinpoint this. Sure, there might be some visual confirmer, but like I say, I think there's sufficient grounds already. I think it's very unlikely to shed light on "that which is last touched or first seen standing". Sure, it's worth trying to find out, but it's not the only thing to consider. At the moment I'm more interested in the idea that the visual confirmer could be the railing (or some other feature at this location we haven't seen, like a wire fence), since unlike the sign, that could indicate an actual spot to dig. It's a minor point. I just didn't want this thread to get too hung up on stuff that's not there, like some others have been...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: It's a minor point. I just didn't want this thread to get too hung up on stuff that's not there, like some others have been... I'm with you there. Anything that helps us to reconstruct the world of 1980 at least has the potential to be useful.  I think it's at least a relevant tack to take.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in the possibility that there might once have been a sign there, but look what we've got already... After circle and square In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood It looks as though this could have taken you from the circle and square of the parking lot, past where the "In July and August" monument used to be, to the Hariot Trail. Where white is in color With two maps Look north at the wing And dig The two solved casques were pinpointed by the verse rather than the image. I don't think we can assume they all are, but either way, I don't see how the sign (if there was a sign) could help to pinpoint this. Sure, there might be some visual confirmer, but like I say, I think there's sufficient grounds already. I think it's very unlikely to shed light on "that which is last touched or first seen standing". Sure, it's worth trying to find out, but it's not the only thing to consider. At the moment I'm more interested in the idea that the visual confirmer could be the railing (or some other feature at this location we haven't seen, like a wire fence), since unlike the sign, that could indicate an actual spot to dig. It's a minor point. I just didn't want this thread to get too hung up on stuff that's not there, like some others have been... I was not able to get into the achives today. It was a sunny warm day that baconed for a bicycle ride, rather than an aftenoon in a gloomy room. I will try for Friday. I am not sure about the Harriot Trail location. If I understand this correctly, the only two finds have been close to something rather solid and long lasting. There is nothing like that around the trail. I have walked it frequently looking for any clue to link the image or verse, with no luck so far. I will keep looking everywhere. Who knows, I might just find the "Force" one day and discover something!

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I have been asked to post photographs of the wall around the Eleizabethan Garden. They are posted @ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 176347805/ When facing the entance to the garden the wall extends out in both directions the left side runs about fourty feet then turns 45 degrees back away from the front wall. It is plain and can only be accessed on the outside of the gardens. The wall extending to the right also runs abour fourty feet before turning right at 90 degress and extends out about sixty feet. Both sides of the wall can bee accessed without entering the gardens. The right side walls include the iron gate and wall plaque that has the qoute concerning the "Dark Forest". thank you paul for the pics,i was hoping that there was a place in the wall, that looks,like the wall near the floor, behind the armor man,every time i look at it,it reminds me of a coped cut of baseboard,that hasnt been set in place yet,and the little blob on that part of wall bugs me,like something stuck to the wall are there any paths that run next to these walls hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 294915521/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 9294915521 hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 ... 9294915521

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I am not sure about the Harriot Trail location. If I understand this correctly, the only two finds have been close to something rather solid and long lasting. There is nothing like that around the trail. 2/12 isn't really enough to draw any firm conclusions. Anything that was there in 1982 and is still there now is long-lasting though, and fair game...a wire fence, a sign, a railing... Quick recap. Here's how I'm seeing this at the moment. Pass two friends of octave In December Wright brothers Ride the man of oz To the land near the window Roanoke There's a road that leads to Dark forest Elizabethan Gardens Where white is in color With two maps The overlook on the Hariot Trail. After circle and square In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood After the parking lot, the Hariot Trail Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Dunno Look north at the wing And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable View of the Wright brothers monument Determination Your goal Dunno The overlook is my favourite at the moment. Might "goal" be the railing? Pretty low goal though. More a hockey goal. I feel this "goal" might be key.

Dude, that goallie idea is slick.

This part still gets me...just like everyone else but...... "Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing" Is there ONE thing that is either touched last or standing up......such as a tree or something that can be touched or stands?  (OR)  does the "standing" refer not to the object to be touched but to you the hunter who is standing?  Now that we are standing, we can now see that which may be touched. Wow, that really doesnt make much sense does it?

its a seat if you were sitting the seat was the last thing you touched when you get up and its the first thing thats uncovered when you stand up

The bench?

fox wrote:: The bench? Nice job Maltedfalcon.  I see a bench next to that dock just past the last telephone pole on Myrna Peters Rd. in Rodanthe.

...random brainstorming... I wouldn't have thought it would be something that could be too easily repositioned. b e l ast t ouched o r first first letters...blto...bolt...? I think someone previously suggested the CRO tree...maybe just any tree though, referencing this mystery...now a beam, or log (goal=a log)...

In response the random brainstorming: you cannot seriously pick out only a few words and anagram their first letters. That isn't logical or sensible. As tempting as it is to do that, it's so random and can be manipulated so much that it makes it almost impossible NOT to find something you want in any group of sentences. In further response: That which may be last touched: the end of the trail--it's touched last because you're there at the location you need to be at. or first seen standing: Meaning you cannot see it SITTING DOWN. You would only see it if you STAND UP. Something that is in a depression or hollow--or behind something ELSE.

I still like the idea of this being a pun on a shoemaker's last... The costume resembles a Roman soldier's red leather skirt. Perhaps what is last touched and first seen standing is something made of leather - which may be touched by a shoemaker's last, and first seen standing while it's still alive. Flying helmets are also often leather. (There's a newspaper article featuring a leather flying helmet and a watch on display at the local airport museum - see here .) Worth keeping an eye open for leather anyway (and museum references to leather or Romans).

Here are those telegraph poles again, on display at the airport museum... I've always been interested in this place - you could certainly "look north at the wing" from somewhere south of it. Paul, if you get bored one day maybe you'd like to take a look round. I'd be interested to see if there was anything about goals there. hxxp://www.darenc.com/airport/museum.htm Here's that article about the "dropped watch" that's framed and on display there. How many Roanoke exhibits involving planes and watches can there be...? (Erexere...what connects 1500 to a horned figure...? See P210.  ;)) Interesting that this article describes a jewellery box containing the watch being dropped into the boat harbour. There's a road that leads to Dark forest A path beckons To mica and driftwood This airport has Driftwood Rd going past it. That has to be worth a look. It would be interesting to see what this area is like.

shecrab wrote:: In further response: That which may be last touched: the end of the trail--it's touched last because you're there at the location you need to be at. or first seen standing: Meaning you cannot see it SITTING DOWN. You would only see it if you STAND UP. Something that is in a depression or hollow--or behind something ELSE. You dont touch the end of a trail you look at it or (you dont even do that because you are facing away from it.) on a bench The last thing you touch when you stand is the seat you were sitting on.  The thing that becomes visible or only can be seen once you stand is also the seat where you were sitting. Bringing in a depression where something is hidden is a possibility I thought the same thing. but that becomes really iffy and only works in one exact spot. so now not only are we looking for an exact spot in a depression, we are looking for an exact spot where we can only view the depression while standing there.... its buried under a bench.

maltedfalcon wrote:: The thing that becomes visible or only can be seen once you stand is also the seat where you were sitting. Actually I think you'll find you can see a bench while you're sitting on it. But don't take my word for it. Give it a try.

Yes, I agree that "May be last touched, and first seen standing" is a bench/seat.  Its nice and compact logic and gives a definite unmoving spot to dig. The problem now is which one. The path to Mica amd Driftwood is the path to the Theater (made of wood and sitting right on the beach) The Theater does have many many seats, but probably none of which can be dug under. Then we get to which bench on which path. The one in which we can look North and see the Wright Brothers Monument with a clear sight line. There can be only one of those.

...yeah, and I could pick it up with one hand.

The verse is using an opposite to make its point of where to dig. The opposite of standing is sitting.  Its a rather crude try at a play on words.  The better play on words which is only implied is 'seat': That is both which is last touched and what is first seen after sitting.

OK, yes, I agree that the overlook is the most likely spot, the bench is attention-grabbing, and the words could possibly be taken to mean a seat. Somehow this particular wooden bench doesn't look a likely dig spot to me though. Where under the bench, exactly...? In the middle...? Why...? BP couldn't have literally dug under it without moving it, so do you imagine him dragging it out the way, digging a hole, then dragging it back...? Did he reposition it exactly after he'd finished digging the hole? Could he assume no-one else would ever move it again...? The ground under it looks pretty solid too. that which may be...first seen standing We've considered "that which is first seen when you stand" (eg seat) and "that which is standing when you first see it". But this could also mean "the first thing you see when you stand up (from the bench)". I still like the railing, which is fixed, is right in front of you when you stand up, has softer ground, and even a possible image match - though I can't explain why it should be "last touched" in a simple and convincing way. I'd like to see the other end of it.

My vague memory of the bench is that it was fastened to the ground in some way, and anyway too new-looking to have been there in 1981. Maybe I'm wrong.

Here's Paul's pic of that sign. Is there a drop from the sign to that sandy area...? Did you consider digging behind the sign itself, Forest...? Or let me rephrase that - why the !@?#! didn't you turn this place over while you were there?  ;) Re: the "Graveyard" on the sign...last touched - grave...? There are enough hints in this pic for people to have researched some local cemetary in the past... * * * * * Introductory randomness... From the English section of the introduction: " Right gladly did all that company hear the news of a new haven in the West, and right swiftly they embarked therefor." Right and right = the Wrights. "Therefor" - very weird word. There four. You say, hey, we need casque-finding evidence before we can adopt such usages. I say - well, get a spade and take a look. A discovery based on such radical reasoning would be revolutionary. Progress = hypothesis + experiment One of the more distinctive and eye-catching visual details on the sign is those boats. "At lengthe wee fownd an entrance vppon our mens diligent serche therof"

Unknown: Did you consider digging behind the sign itself, Forest...? Or let me rephrase that - why the !@?#! didn't you turn this place over while you were there? Because I'm an armchair treasure hunter, WR! Seriously, I just took a day trip from Chapel Hill to see what I could see, not get arrested and fined for vandalism. My biggest regret isn't not digging, it's not taking mosquito repellent. You may doubt all you like, but I am certain mosquitoes ate the Lost Colony.

Unknown: My biggest regret isn't not digging, it's not taking mosquito repellent. You may doubt all you like, but I am certain mosquitoes ate the Lost Colony. Lol  :D

WR,i like the rail idea, Under that Which may be last touched ----- the rail,most people are inclined to,rest their hands,forearms on it the MAY BE,could be you touched the rail,after you sat,instead of b4 EX. hxxp://www.louisfuqua.net/leaningonrail.jpg hxxp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2FJOB7E0dng/T ... G_0260.JPG Or first seen standing ----- when you walk up the path,maybe the rail comes into view 1st,as the bench may have been where the stumps are EX. hxxp://www.indonesiateakfurniture.com/t ... re-set.jpg hxxp://img.ehowcdn.com/article-page-mai ... 00x800.jpg utube of island wood @ 3:44,starts view of a rail,maybe the rail hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlraPcV4Hg4 older imgs i think hxxp://www.roanokesound.com/photo-galle ... oke-island maybe the grave stone cross looking things mean this hxxp://www.graveyardoftheatlantic.com/History.htm

cw0909 wrote:: WR,i like the rail idea, Under that Which may be last touched ----- the rail,most people are inclined to,rest their hands,forearms on it the MAY BE,could be you touched the rail,after you sat,instead of b4 EX. hxxp://www.louisfuqua.net/leaningonrail.jpg hxxp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2FJOB7E0dng/T ... G_0260.JPG Or first seen standing ----- when you walk up the path,maybe the rail comes into view 1st,as the bench may have been where the stumps are EX. hxxp://www.indonesiateakfurniture.com/t ... re-set.jpg hxxp://img.ehowcdn.com/article-page-mai ... 00x800.jpg utube of island wood @ 3:44,starts view of a rail,maybe the rail hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlraPcV4Hg4 older imgs i think hxxp://www.roanokesound.com/photo-galle ... oke-island maybe the grave stone cross looking things mean this hxxp://www.graveyardoftheatlantic.com/History.htm Here are my thoughts on the recent posts about the Harriot Trail and the railing at the lookout. I have looked over this area in great detail. The tide comes right up to the edge of the dune at this point. In fact the rail is loose and in danger of falling into to sea! If the casque were north of the rail, it would have been lost to the sea a long time ago. The errosion along the north of the island is very bad. The island was actually a 1/4 of a mile longer, to the north, 400 years ago. As to recent comments about the cemetary in the park. I read the book "The Secret". On page 219 it specifically states that "any cemetery" does not hold any treasure. That's a good thing. I have been busy looking at a mountain of photographs in the park Museum Resource Center. However, so far I have had no luck finding anything dating back to 1981/2 that has shead any light on anything. Keep thinking and I will post anything that might help. Regards, Paul.

Paul Kitchen wrote:: Here are my thoughts on the recent posts about the Harriot Trail and the railing at the lookout. I have looked over this area in great detail. The tide comes right up to the edge of the dune at this point. In fact the rail is loose and in danger of falling into to sea! If the casque were north of the rail, it would have been lost to the sea a long time ago. The errosion along the north of the island is very bad. The island was actually a 1/4 of a mile longer, to the north, 400 years ago. As to recent comments about the cemetary in the park. I read the book "The Secret". On page 219 it specifically states that "any cemetery" does not hold any treasure. That's a good thing. I have been busy looking at a mountain of photographs in the park Museum Resource Center. However, so far I have had no luck finding anything dating back to 1981/2 that has shead any light on anything. Keep thinking and I will post anything that might help. Regards, Paul. I have noted that there are quite a few flag poles in the park. I was wondering it the "Which may be last touched or first seen standing" might be a flag pole. The flag is lowered at night (last touched) and raised in the morning (first seen standing). An comments would be helpfull. I continue to look at everything I can that might help. I just passed the 5000 photographs point! But still no luck on the old sign by the overlook.

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I have noted that there are quite a few flag poles in the park. I was wondering it the "Which may be last touched or first seen standing" might be a flag pole. WhiteRabbit wrote:: I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there's nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious "last touched" is a flag. ("Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.") I guess that might also pass for "first seen standing". I wondered about the flagstones or "flags" that appear in the image. Seems possible... Any resemblance between the flagpoles and the cords/loops in the pic...?

actually where flagpole would not work - You cant put it under a flagpole. you could put it at the base or in front of but under would not work Also that would then mean you would also need a direction (north from, behind, in the direction of an object of twains attention, etc, but he says under. however a flag would certainly work, The most obvious direction would in the direction of the prevailing wind from the flagpole. Still if you got there on a day when the wind was blowing from another direction you would never find the casque. Railing or bench still seems to me to be the best bet.

hi paul,could you tell me what signs,markers, are at the blue points, i marked on the insert of this map of the trail,and is there only one trail in the park the line look north to the wing,.......could it be a wing of the theater you sound like you would like to dig something LOL, id feel the same way if i was there,as much as you are. hell i would prob have dug and probed the whole park,by summers end,LOL trail map https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... VAcpw/edit

cw0909 wrote:: hi paul,could you tell me what signs,markers, are at the blue points, i marked on the insert of this map of the trail,and is there only one trail in the park the line look north to the wing,.......could it be a wing of the theater you sound like you would like to dig something LOL, id feel the same way if i was there,as much as you are. hell i would prob have dug and probed the whole park,by summers end,LOL trail map https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... VAcpw/edit Hi, I am sorry because I do not see any blue points on your map. It does not seem to open correctly and shows very little detail of the park. Please give me more details of the locations and I will try to help you out. Regards, Paul. Further, I am looking at the Waterside Theater very closely. I think that the "Which may be last touched or First seen standing" is a flag pole. There is such a pole in the theater that has a sandy area just to the north of it. And, I can see the wing of the Wright Brothers National Monument. I am also looking at the flag pole in front of the park visitor center. Just north of it is a possible spot. But I cannot see any wing. There is more to look at there. The third possible flag pole is right in the middle of the earthen fort. It is in line to see the wing, but through thick brush. Maybe thirty years ago it could be spotted. I am not ready to dig yet. But, perhapes soon. Who knows what might pop up and make sense.

Unknown: Wash Woods was an unincorporated town located on the coast of the Atlantic Ocean in Princess Anne County in the extreme southeastern corner of Virginia. The site of the former town is currently located within False Cape State Park in the Virginia Beach area. According to popular legend, the community was developed by survivors of a shipwreck in the 16th or early 17th century.  The village’s church and other structures were built using cypress wood that washed ashore from a shipwreck. Around the turn of the 20th century, the area was still inhabited. Wash Woods was home to a United States Coast Guard lifesaving station, a grocery store, two churches, and a school. Three hundred people once lived there, working as fishermen, farmers, hunting guides and manning lifeboats. I recalled an earlier idea about a "false" cape, not sure if it had to do with the actual town of False Cape, but it had to do with a spot White mapped accurately when other cartographers made maps without the cape feature.  Apparently the cape WAS there at one point.  I'm still looking for the story of that detail. Anyways, was reading this about False Cape, Virginia and something about an Irish settlement that built itself from driftwood caught my attention: So the town was named "Wash Woods".  Isn't it standard practice to sort your wash into "lights" and "darks"?  Perhaps "Dark Forest" is a reference to the area where this town once stood? Could "land near the window" simply be referring to "port" as opposed to "starboard"?

erexere wrote:: Could "land near the window" simply be referring to "port" as opposed to "starboard"? I would have to say no. If I followed that association, it could just as easily mean "port" land... Oregon.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I would have to say no. If I followed that association, it could just as easily mean "port" land... Oregon. Ugg.  I don't want to go there.  I'm merely considering that a window IS a port, and so is the land side of a ship seen as the definition of the ships port-side or left. Just thinking about what this means in the most general sense.  I'm not pointing fingers or making word associations.  This is only a defining mention. I must also point out the alternative, where the Roanoke Island is the land depicted near the window of image 3.  Perhaps that is all that might be in reference too. There looks like three big references to the Wright brothers.  Friends of Octave, the wing, and the inscription on the memorial with "dauntless".  That's a lot of focus on one place.

hi paul not sure if this link will work for you,the other link,has a toolbar for zoom or just click the 2nd pic and select slide,if you cant see it ill try something else https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... 671444_0_0 use the view drop down https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... VAcpw/edit

trying something else scroll down to 2nd img https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... sent?pli=1

Paul's travels have now taken him onward...looks like he's presently in Missouri. hxxp://www.fulltimeit.com/index_files/Page339.htm I got in touch with the curator at the airport museum though. He's ruled out the museum exhibits as the place postdates the puzzle, but he's interested in the north locations and is planning a research trip to the Outer Banks History Center ...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Paul's travels have now taken him onward...looks like he's presently in Missouri. hxxp://www.fulltimeit.com/index_files/Page339.htm I got in touch with the curator at the airport museum though. He's ruled out the museum exhibits as the place postdates the puzzle, but he's interested in the north locations and is planning a research trip to the Outer Banks History Center ... You are correct. We have started our travels west and currently are in Valentine, NE for a few days. I have suspended my hunt for "The Secret" tresure. However, I will return to Fort Raleigh in April of 2013 and pick up where I left off. I know that the Part Service will be getting some ground penetrating radar equipment in the next year. So, once I have an X on the gorund we will be able to check the spot before the dig! I have some spots in mind, but they will have to wait until next year. PLease keep me posted with any new developments. Best regards, Paul

Paul Kitchen wrote:: I will return to Fort Raleigh in April of 2013 and pick up where I left off. I know that the Park Service will be getting some ground penetrating radar equipment in the next year. Now you're talking. Enjoy your wanderings and get yrself back here in 2013...

Unknown: a. The first or foremost position. b. One occupying such a position; a leader Under that Which may be last touched Or first I was thinking about these lines and wondered about "lead". The lead can mean the first... ...and lead is sometimes used to line coffins. There's also the unexplained plumb-line... ...and the line: A path lead s I reckon it might be worth checking the area around the overlook and the water gate for lead pipes, cladding, or similar. "Seen standing" might indicate upright/vertical. (I was listening to The Gold Bug on the radio yesterday. The buried treasure is found using a plumb-line.)

I remembered incorrectly that Octave not Octavius was the Wright Brothers friend.  If it was Octavius, it wouldve helped my case. I wonder how this might compare with other verses.  Hard = Harding, Glass = Glassel, and now Wood = Woodward might all apply as well.

Given a rough understanding of the general area around the Wright monument and the Roanoke Island, the notion of taking the oine "December" to mean "State Highway Route 12" seems very possible.  December could mean lots of things, but hwy 12 is the main road that ties most of the Outer Banks together.  Looking for a fit in verse seems natural. This is just a tactic.  Applying and repeating the tactic to the line "July and August" doesnt fit the area being there isn't an obvious choice of road 7, 8, 7+8=15, or 78, or something less obvious and even less likely.  Instead I suggest a new tactic, more obvious and slightly tricky, July and August are months named after Roman Emperors.  Is there a Ceasarian relationship to this area or a Romanesque name somewhere?  Maybe a Roman Numeralish idea: July = 7 = VII and August = 8 = VIII...or 15 = XV or 78 = LXXVIII...Aand on to even less likely variations. Could be the two lines give a contrast between Winter and Summer.  Why supply us with a seasonal difference?  Is there a specific relationship to tourism or Ferry Routes? The use of the word 'ride' in the man of oz line seems less likely the bridge and more a Ferry, since you don't "ride" a bridge.  One would ride a "beast of burden", and a bridge does bear much weight...either bridge or ferry might work.  It might be an off reference to. Slavery as well.  The Wizard of Oz did deal with the subject of enslavement.  Perhaps a look into Civil War history might prove fruitful.  Fort Raleigh then applies.  Roanoke and the Other Banks were major points of contention for Union and Confeflderate forces.

erexere wrote:: This is just a tactic.  Applying and repeating the tactic to the line "July and August" doesnt fit the area being there isn't an obvious choice of road 7, 8, 7+8=15, or 78, or something less obvious and even less likely.  Instead I suggest a new tactic, more obvious and slightly tricky, July and August are months named after Roman Emperors.  Is there a Ceasarian relationship to this area or a Romanesque name somewhere?  Maybe a Roman Numeralish idea: July = 7 = VII and August = 8 = VIII...or 15 = XV or 78 = LXXVIII...Aand on to even less likely variations. This would make sense if the line were not a quote from the Virginia Dare monument that the preceding lines just lead to (hwy 12 is Virginia Dare Trail). Perhaps the juxtaposition of the way we interpret the months (i.e., December is a highway; July and August are a quote on a marker) is what is meant to be "slightly tricky." Notice how they both come together to mean Virginia Dare, however.

I see your reasoning.  I think Virginia Dare is one of the widest and most popular associations with the area next to the Wright Brothers.  The monuments themselves might be used as merely popular references.  They might not be useful as markers for close proximity to the casque.

erexere wrote:: I see your reasoning.  I think Virginia Dare is one of the widest and most popular associations with the area next to the Wright Brothers.  The monuments themselves might be used as merely popular references.  They might not be useful as markers for close proximity to the casque. I agree... but with a comparative line like, "Seek the sounds / Of rumble / Brush and music," it must be nearby. Frankly, this is why I cannot accept Rodanthe/Pea Island.

I jumped to a conclusion.  Rodanthe is far away.  Until we recognize a good reasoning for going so far from the confirmed markers, Roanoke itself seems like a best bet. My frank opinion is that Roanoke and Pea Island are both "lands near the window". They are both represented by picture clues near the central window background of Image 3. My instincts about the memorial inscriptions being worked into verse as multipurpose clues.  First purpose is to orient our attention to these popular structures like the Terminal Tower or the M and B set in stone.  The second purpose is working it into a theme of sorts.  We shouldn't force our thinking into a limited view like where it says "look north at the wing", and we already recognize the Wright Memorial as THE wing because the "friends of an Octave" and "dauntless and inconquerable", but as a theme it might be that a perfectly obvious object like a certain telephone pole has a horizontal timber across a vertical pole, which makes it look like it has two arms and thus wings. I've recently come to think the image looks like an antique telephone. Look at this, although it's stylized, it still has some typical components and design of the antique phone with a single post connected to a yoke and then the handset across the top: etymology of telephone: tele-(far) + phone (sound).

Seriously, does it look like a phone?

No.

I found a better visual match to the Crossley CR93.  There are two smaller arms that match the shape of the belt. Some other random bits of informatiin I found:  phone named a "potbelly" which resembled a kind of stove reminded me of the ptbelly fairy.  Mica was used in the manufacture of the diaphragm transmitter of an old candlestick type phone. I also found a significant bit of Civil War history.  A Colonel Augustus Romaldus Wright and the Chicamacomico Races.

Yeah, well it I found a better visual match... the crucifixion of Jesus, which occurred, as prophesied, only after Augustus (Octavius) called a census to prompt his birth. It must be in Bethlehem.

I am being reasonable at least.  The Civil War account of forces is fascinatiing.  Historical markers to support the record are prominent in many places.  Telephone poles representing easy-one-step crucifixions abound.  There might be a shortage of Judges however...oh wait, there's the airfields where "Pilates" surely take to their wings on a regular basis.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Here's Paul's pic of that sign. I just noticed (put 2 + 2 together) the title of this sign is Four Hundred Years of Coastal Geography , and the text on the sign is marking it from 1590. Does that mean that the sign wouldn't have been in place until 1990?

Good point.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Good point. Do we have any confirmation to say otherwise?

maltedfalcon, I've been thinking about the use of the word 'ride' in 'ride the man of oz' and it seemed most natural to apply it to some vehicle like a bus, ferry, or train.  The fact is the ferry system's originator was T.A. Baum.  The Bridge sharing the same name as that is as applicable although one doesn't "ride a bridge" itself.  My interpretations are only guesses, but I do like the "beast of burden" idea as it identifies with a pack animal, which would suit a horse or "nag" relation along with the image 3 horse shaped head in armor relating also to Nags Head, which fills the gap between Kill Devil Hills and Roanoke. The point of Pea Island National Wildland Refuge hasn't really been brought to light as well as people are trying to report.  All thing's considered, Pea Island and Roanoke aren't very far from each other.  Either spot might be on the way to the other or both might just be points of interest along a greater path.  This is largely uncertain ground.  We need to study the verse much more closely and understand the themes, if any, involved.  So far, I'm probing a few ideas, 1) telephones, 2) Wright(s) - Orville/Wilbur and possibly a lateral Civil War Colonel named Augustus Wright and perhaps something to do with the homonym "right", 3) flight - also refers to fleeing and "Refuge" with regard to the Pea Island area means "a place to flee back to", 4) Knight - heroism, 5) freedom - keys. The line "where white is in color" seems surely about John White, but there is something about the use of the word 'color' as it could possibly refer to a "skin complexion" or "covering/concealment".  Anyone have any guesses where something white is concealed?  Or perhaps a distinction between the seasonal uniform colors for the Navy where there is a contrast between Summer and Winter (possibly a reason for using December in one line and July and August in another).

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Do we have any confirmation to say otherwise? Yes. Consult my post in this thread on Dec. 23, 2005, which comes close to answering the question. Miraculously, all my images and maps still seem to be active even though geocities folded some time ago.

forest_blight wrote:: Yes. Consult my post in this thread on Dec. 23, 2005, which comes close to answering the question. Miraculously, all my images and maps still seem to be active even though geocities folded some time ago. Thanks, FB. As many times as I have read over this thread, I don't think I went back that far. Glad to know no wrenches have been thrown. I was feeling a bit distraught. Back to happily speculating and contemplating.

hxxp://chicamacomico.net/The-Mirlo-Rescue.htm Im thinking July and August = Ceasar = Sea Sir.  Was it that the six recipients of the Grand Cross (American version) be called Sir or Knights?

forest_blight wrote:: Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing If one sits on the bench at the beach overlook and stands, the first thing you see over the fence (or perhaps over encroaching vegetation in 1983?) is the left-most of these posts: ... Unlike jetties, which extend perpendicular to the beach, these lie in a line parallel to the beach, and are of different heights. It might also be the last one you would touch if you were wading and using them as hand-holds. Your post really got me thinking... Preface all this with the fact that I am a total subscriber to the casque being located  near the "two maps" sign now. Your sharp description has given me a few new thoughts: What do you make of the plumb line (surely a clue rather than an arbitrary image) when paired with a verse within which the most tantalizing clue is the "under that..."? plumb line (NOUN) - a line with weight attached: a line to which a weight is attached to find the depth of water or to verify a true vertical alignment -Could it be tied to that left-most post sunk under the water and sand? -Could it be at a point in a line created by tying a string to the left-most post and moving toward the beach in a) a direct north/south direction? b) the beach in a direction perpendicular to the posts? -Could it under the "X," which might be seen as a spot to the right of the path  as you walk/look up towards the rail/overlook? Whoa... Right turn... I was just researching the inlets on the maps because the sign said, "Today, only one [inlet] would appear on White's map" (i.e., it is the last one that can be touched). I came across this while searching the names of the inlets from the map so I could determine which one was no longer there: " inlet of Chacandepeco, which is Algonquian for “that which is deep and becomes shallow. " This inlet is one listed on Hattaras. Makes me think that this could be an obscure transformation of our verse, or that one of the other inlets on the map translates to "that which is last touched or first seen standing" directly. Then it really could be under that which may be (is) last touched or first seen standing. Perhaps we just drop a plum line from the inlet under the sign to the ground... perhaps it's directly under the sign!? hxxp://www.lost-colony.com/cultural.html has the names and translation of the villages on the map, but not the inlets (e.g., Aquascogooc: A place to embark or where a place for disembarking exists ).

421, you're idea about plumb lines got me thinking more about the 'last touched first seen standing'. I've been working the telephone idea and haven't yet addressed the "lines" connecting things in the image.  The insulators are hanging like bells from a plumb line.  This idea wants to go somewhere.  How about a truly simple idea:  A LINE. People are seen standing in a line .  Distant people are "touched" with a phone call through a phone LINE .  AT&T BELL had a slogan around 1980 if you recall, "Reach out.  Reach out and touch someone." I think it must be that the casque is located beneath a physical phone line. Or, Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Could be connected to a sinking ship.  In the event of a shipwreck, a Surfman standing watch on a lookout will first need to observe the distressed vessel.  At that moment he initiate rescue protocol, signal the other men and hopefully make it to survivors.  Is the lookout structure the last thing touched before attending to an coastal emergency? No...nothing I've come up with for these few lines has a perfect or satisfactory feel. *sigh* How about a tree...as in a stand [of trees].  The word 'stand' has its less ocommon usage.  Something to consider.  The sayings "I wouldnt touch it with a ten-foot-pole," or "I wouldnt touch you if you were the last on the planet" come to mind.  A telephone pole was first seen as one of a stand of trees.  If it is the last telephone pole in a particular line of poles like the end of a road, it would be last touched with every phone call to the house on the end..  Hmm.  That pole at the end of the road in Rodanthe does fit that description. Maybe it fits from sitting at the bench at the end of Myrna Peters Rd.  The first telephone seen standing is the last touched when the nearest phone rings.  Phone booth neaby?

If your square peg doesnt fit your round hole, get a bigger hammer.

maltedfalcon wrote:: If your square peg doesnt fit your round hole, get a bigger hammer. The Secret didn't come with an instruction manual, nor did it come with specifications on the size of Preiss' hammer.

I again want to make a play for Rodanthe.  The history of this area is very significant.  While the Wright Brothers' event is cited for December, the Mirlo Rescue revolving around this site happened in August. I have no idea how stable the sand would be here 2-3 feet down.  Thoughts? You know, you should hang a plumb line off the south wing tip, that would be a great place to dig.  I don't think you'd have any problem getting permission to dig on the beach.

The sand on a beach, however deep is not stable, sand moves on a beach. think of it as very thick water.  If it was buried in the sand it is no longer there. Even the planted dunes over time will move,  Especially after storm surge.

You may be right.  I figure a bad storm has no problem shifting the first few feet of sand.  The pole is still there, si maybe that's a good sign.

maybe but after living near a beach I know if things like that fall over they just come out with an auger truck , drill a new hole and stand it back up. phone poles, street signs, etc...  Is not like things like tat are cemented in.

This seems silly, but I thought about the idea of making a gesture combined with the Wright brothers theme and I thought this cheerleading position resembled the shape of the lookout pole.

Hi everyone, You might remember me from my posts last year around this time. I am a volunteer working for the National Park Servcie here at Fort Raleigh National Hisotric Site. Last year I tried to be your eyes on the gorun here. So, now that I am back I would like to continue the hunt. I am a little behind on the lates news and ideas so I will get busy doing the reading. However, if there is any news I should now right away please send me a message. I might have access to ground penetrating radar equipment this year. If you have a suggested "X" within the National Park I will see if I can survey some of them. I have my own ideas and will survey them if I can get my hands on th equipment. Please feel free to comtact me with your thoughts. Best regards, Paul

With two maps Simple meaning, something with two maps. or "with two" might be meant in terms of having an alternative, i.e. one or the other, so "with two choices".  The word "whether" can be substituted as to mean "with alternatives".  Whether is an easy homonym for "weather", so in convoluted terms, "with two maps" could mean "weather maps". Is there a weather monitoring facility to be included in this casque search? Found this just now, hxxp://www.nps.gov/caha/historyculture/ ... bureau.htm It mentions several weather stations.  One I like in particular is/was at Wash Woods.  I hypothesized awhile ago about the lines about White and in Color having to do with "clothes washing", I know it sounded silly at the time, especially considering the entrenched local history of John White, but it's still good logic to consider ANYTHING in general as fair game when it comes to these riddled lines.  Clothes washing is an every day task, or weekly in my case, and it is customary to sort your items into lights and darks with respect to colors. The line about through "Dark Forest" might be linked to this thought process, since "darks" are colors in washing terms.  Forest = woods.  Wash Woods seems at least possible in this sense.  Back to my research... Interesting find, check out this link [url=hxxp://www.townofmanteo.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={5A211597-89B7-4C62-93B6-DBD279FDE8A9}] Manteo Weather Tower [/url].  The flag colors from this tower are either white or colored.  White means fair weather, color and shape, triangles, squares, could indicate rain or storms.  I don't see a "circle in square" flag among the choices.  It's usually a combination of triangles or squares with black squares in the center for different storm indicators.

Unknown: "a large bluish-green object, flat as a buckwheat cake, and rolling along on its edge like a cartwheel." This find deserves its own post and will translate as a wildly different idea relating to Ride the man of oz .  Although this is just a character in a story and not an actual man, and is described more as a villainous monster and object, here is the description from a quote citation: Here's the cover of the book featuring the mass produced Scalywagons, o Note the way in which the O's are drawn, looking very similar to the O/I's on the armor in image 3 with one larger one smaller, minus the Z in the large one. The name of this villain is Bell-snickle, of no relation to the Christmas folklore, Belsnickel. What grabs my attention here the most is the noteworthy account connected to Rodanthe history.  Rodanthe celebrates Old Christmas and also has a Belsnickle like character "Old Buck".  The line "In December" certainly calls some attention to the possibility of Christmas relatedness.  "Dark Forest" calls attention to the German wood, Die Schwartzwald or "Black Forest".  Belsnickel is of German origin.  Belzen/Pelzen+Nicholas.  Pelzen or pelt means a fur skin but alternatively means to wallop or drub, also to gallop, or run.  To ride the man of oz makes even more sense.

Paul - welcome back. My favorite spot for GPR would be between those mysterious wooden posts at the ocean-front overlook on the Hariot trail.

Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Choosing to touch something last could be described as "stalling". The word 'stable' literally means "a standing place", Latin: stabulum. It's possible that this is a description of a barn style structure, a stall/stable. Does that look like a typical barn stable?  Does this also look like a barn?

Hi Paul - there's been zero progress on Roanoke in your absence, we've been saving it all for you.

forest_blight wrote:: Paul - welcome back. My favorite spot for GPR would be between those mysterious wooden posts at the ocean-front overlook on the Hariot trail. I would have to agree wholeheartedly with fb here. Have we ever definitively found what those posts were used for? i would say use that radar all around this area.....and also down by the beach gate. These 2 sites seem to be the best contenders for me.

The architectural term for that barn style roof with two slope angles on each side is called a gambrel.  Gambrel originates from the word for a horse's leg.  Last touched or first seen standing as a riddle for a barn even makes more sense when including the idea that legs are indicative of standing and there is a horse motif worked into image 3. The Chicamacomico Life Saving Station doesnt actually have a gambrel for a roof but it does have a a gambrel shape worked into its stylized area above the doors and below the roof apex. In the months of June July and August only are beach drills performed for tourism at Chicamacomico LSS.  The Breeches Bouy Rescue Drill involves shooting a small cannon with a rope line attached over to a ship mast from land.  A rope pulley system is then used to rescue people.  This idea of ropes and pullys to save people might be the reason image 3 has line suspensions on the arms of the armor. hxxp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeches_buoy

I will get started soon. The keeper of the equipment has changed and I need to butter up the new person. Once greased, off we go! LOL!

Looking more carefully at the line Ride the man of oz Bell-snickle, a villain of oz, described as a monster wearing bells on it's ears, blue and green in color, rolls along on it's edge like a cartwheel Belsnickel, a Christmas gift-bringer, described as wearing a heavy fur pelt covering his entire body (armor?), has a mask and a long tongue, acting in a good or bad way depending.  Belsnickel is the combination of German word pelzen and Nicholas.  Translation, "pelzen" = pelt. Comparison of the words ride and pelt: Ride, To tease or ridicule. To harass with persistent carping and criticism. Pelt, To hurl (insults) at (a person). Seems that teasing or ridiculing isn't at all far off from pointing out a persons shortcomings. So, taking the word ride at one of its less common dictionary definitions to understand the line in a previously unconsidered manner, Pelt instead of Ride, the man of oz. or A homonym for a character in oz that involves a pelt? "Belsnickel" (Bell-snickle - the man of oz) In December the month with Christmas "Belsnickel", a pelt wearing figure at Christmas time.

A few years ago I found the name of a summer employee who helped clear the Hariot Trail in the late 1970s, but it was such a common name (I forget what it was; it's in the archived posts here) there was no hope of locating him. The park had no records of what was there. So unless we locate someone's old vacation photos of that area, there's no telling. no one buries posts like that for no reason -- they must have held a sign of some sort.

To the land near the window land: come to shore window: a time period for beginning and finishing something I'm still biased towards a Rodanthe solution, but even so this makes for a good example.  The rescue drills performed in July and August at Chicamacomico LSS, called a Beecher Bouy, involves firing a small Lyle Gun which sends a rope line out over the shore to a ship in distress.  During this window of rescue passengers are brought to shore.

Fact checking and follow up on the Manteo Weather Tower, it was ran by a man named Alpheus Drinkwater and he was responsible for broadcasting the first telegraph of the First Flight. We have a fairly good case for telephone poles given the perfect match of the object on the line in image 3 with the glass insulators for lines.  Combined with the Wright Bros. clue at the beginning we might have good cause to look for a specific telephone pole.  The large pole used in the Beecher Buoy drills looks very telephone pole like, which is why I'm inclined to consider it a candidate.  I didn't know until yesterday that it was regularly used for drills in July and August that rigged it with lines.

forest_blight wrote:: A few years ago I found the name of a summer employee who helped clear the Hariot Trail in the late 1970s, but it was such a common name (I forget what it was; it's in the archived posts here) there was no hope of locating him. The park had no records of what was there. So unless we locate someone's old vacation photos of that area, there's no telling. no one buries posts like that for no reason -- they must have held a sign of some sort. Forest, do you still have the pics you took of the site? I followed the links from 07 or so and they were no longe working. Another question, has anyone really taken shovel to that bench? It would be the most viable spot right now but then again few of us have been there.

There's a road that leads to Dark forest There's not much alternate word meaning to do on the first part, except "leads" could be an indicator of something like the tethers attached to the head of a horse: 1. A long narrow leather strap attached to each end of the bit of a bridle and used by a rider or driver to control a horse or other animal. Often used in the plural.  If this line is indicating a horse related idea, then let's consider the following line and consider where in horse related terminology the word 'dark' or 'forest' might come into play. 'dark horse' comes up in the dictionary as a little-known person or thing that emerges to prominence, especially in a competition of some sort or a contestant that seems unlikely to succeed. The only road that I can see fitting the picture is that of highway 12 through Nags Head Woods. In consideration of the choice to use 'dark' if it meant utilizing it as a hint to anything befitting an unlikely success, I would think it applies to the doubts of whether the Wright Bros. could fly their craft, or perhaps the story of the Mirlo Rescue, an incredible rescue that achieved the highest of honors in our nations history.  The "Mighty Midgetts": midget as a reference to an usually small person works well with the term 'dark horse'.  There are other unlikely yet great historic events related to the Outer Banks.  I happen to think the Life Saving Stations are the best candidates, specifically the Chicamacomico location, for this verse/image pairing. An afterthought, it might be worth mentioning that the Munchkins of Oz were portrayed by midget actors.  I would consider whether the reason for mentioning the man of Oz is the result of Preiss considering that we should travel the Washington-Baum bridge or is it his Oz-based take on the more historically significant Mirlo Rescue.  Figure in the alternate meaning if the word ride and its well known that midget's are often pelted or ridiculed.

To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. To achieve, is about succeeding.  A "dark horse" is an unlikely success. A goal, Looks a lot like the lookout I've been proposing.  It's specifically designed for practice drills that require the simulation of a ships mast.  The ships mast with sail is alternatively referred to as a "wing".  Looking north at this wing and digging seems like a really good idea.

I use to think this was a bench, something you see when standing but once sitting you don't look directly at it.  Now I think its a football goal. Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing In overtime, the defending (making a stand - standing) loses the game when the opposing team has possession and succeeds in making a field goal kick.  When the teams are in position and the referee makes the signal to resume game, the defenders goal is the immediately or first vulnerable to being scored on, and should the ball touch the goal post but still pass through, then the condition of being last touched is met, since that scoring event signals the end of the game.  The answer to this riddle has to be a football goal post or in this case something which looks very similar, having a center post supporting a cross bar with extending upward on either side.

Where white is in color Blackbird is featured on the White album.  Blackbird = merle = Mirlo. The Mirlo Rescue.

Mica and driftwood are pieces of shipwreck.  Its Preiss' way of speaking about historical events in this region of the Outer Banks.  Mica is latin for "crumb" or bits and pieces of a ship aka flotsam and jetsom.  Preiss couldn't just say 'pieces of shipwreck' or this casque might be too easy.  Calling it mica and driftwood is just good enough to get people thinking about beaches.

rookhunter wrote:: Forest, do you still have the pics you took of the site? I followed the links from 07 or so and they were no longe working. Those had been posted on webshots, I think, but I removed them after a few years. Sometime soon I will find them and post them at my own website. UPDATE: Found 'em: hxxp://www.kspot.org/trove/roanoke/ .

My favorite part of this Munchkin theory is that the practice drills in June-August actually require launching the buoy line through the practice mast exactly as if making a field goal.  I'm thrilled, but then I wonder how much sandy soil will need to be dug and if its even remotely possible to find a casque after several major storms in the past three decades.

Fact relating to Wright Bros. Monument: three of the five witnesses of the First Flight were men of the Kill Devil Hills Life Saving Station.  They were responsible for the man power needed to drag the Flyer to the top of the hill.  The historic plaque at the Kill Devil Hills Life Saving Station (restored in 1986 and later relocated) describes the event and includes the names of the Surfmen. Its a decent theory and by no means a stretch to consider that this verse, identifying with the Wright Bros. First Flight, also relates to other men at the neighboring Life Saving Station at Chicamacomico, the Midgetts. It is also no stretch of the Imagination to consider that midgets relate to Oz or that a suit of armor minus the legs doesnt at least imply shortness.

I thought of how the football goal post is really just an example of something that looks like a ship mast.  The last thing touched may be a ship mast in the event of sinking.  Imagine the crew scrambling up it to avoid drowning.  The mast to a ship in distress would first be seen standing and once nearly completely sunk, it would be last touched before the sailor would need to swim for anything else that might keep him afloat.

wow, I just reviewed the entire thread carefully and I have to agree it's there under the  bench. The interpretation of the digging line "Under that which may be lat touched or first seen standing" is spot on. Benches will always first be seen standing and is the last thing touched when sitting down. If I wasn't 2000 miles away I would go dig myself. I hope someone gets a chance to dig. In the sand I bet the box is intact.

hi paul kitchen,nice to have you back, forest blight has put up some imgs and in this one hxxp://www.kspot.org/trove/roanoke/IMG_0844.jpg of the (bench and rail) if you are standing behind the bench looking out to sea, and look down at the back leg of the bench on your right, you can see what looks like a sawed off square post,keep looking to the right down at the 2 round sawed off posts, it looks like another sawed off square post. paul when you have time could you rake around that area and see if 2 more square posts are there, im thinking an old wood bench with the legs buried may be what those square sawed off posts are from, thank you going to try and add a link to img https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VtiYo ... sp=sharing FB imgs he put up thanks FB hxxp://www.kspot.org/trove/roanoke/

Trohn wrote:: ...the right side of the stage has a representation of the boat as a mast which actually moves on and off the stage within the production... I don't see how you could possibly dig a hole under the bench. It's fixed in place isn't it? How are you going to get a spade under that? I'd like to see some more pics around this area. The "last touched" is reminiscent of the Croatoan tree. Was this a fir tree...? "Pine" and "fir" seem to be used fairly interchangeably, and I think there are plenty around the place. Given Preiss' tree fixation maybe it's "firs seen standing" - what Thomas called: "Firre trees fit for masts of ships". I quite like the ship's mast interpretation of the image. It would be interesting to see what the one used in the production looks like. Pine trivia: Loblolly (as seen on the Hariot Trail sign above) means "low, wet place". The word "low" appears upwards in the verse initials (and in the English section of the introduction). W hich may be last touched O r first seen standing L ook north at the wing Is there a pine by the bench? Or maybe that railing is pine...? (The railing could also be "first seen standing" as a tree.)

Weisshassen!  You're back! I love the loblolly speculation.  It was brought up long ago.  Nothing came of it. I keep looking for spins on "oz".  I feel there's room for a two or three supporting nudges in the right direction relating to Baum's universe.  Why is the "oz" NOT capitalized?  I say little "o" for little people.  Sweet, subtle, simple.  (Shecrab made that observation if I recall).  The Loblolly sparks something in my imagination about the Munchkins of the Lollipop Guild...bit that's a very minor spark if anything. In a scenario of a sinking ship, the square of the mast is first to be swallowed by the sea, after that the circular crow's nest...and then the top is last touched...*glug glug*. I go with mast interpretation because it is most directly interpreted by image.  It goes solidly with the glass insulator of a telephone or telegraph pole, something not discussed with the Roanoke-centric theory.  I say find the "mast", find the casque. The bench looking north at the Wright wing is highly dissociated from verse or image.  I'm first going to consider a perspective of some significance over a randomly associated idea.  But apparently thats just me.

I love that any piece of wood would have been first seen standing. So what is the last piece of wood you touch at the location of the park? a railing, a gate? WhiteRabbit, dig the hole directly behind the bench and then widen it once you have reached the proper depth. it would be pretty easy, but I think you're right its not under the bench. my bet is the railing.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I love that any piece of wood would have been first seen standing. So what is the last piece of wood you touch at the location of the park? a railing, a gate? WhiteRabbit, dig the hole directly behind the bench and then widen it once you have reached the proper depth. it would be pretty easy, but I think you're right its not under the bench. my bet is the railing. It looks like a drop off and sand under the railing. Perhaps Mr Paul can get better pics of the area. Further pics of the bench would aloe in order. I would love to know how hi it sits off the ground and how is it secured to the ground. Cement? Bolts? something else?

rookhunter wrote:: It looks like a drop off and sand under the railing. Yep...I was wondering about the other end, but I don't know if it continues beyond what can be seen in the pic. if not, I'd be tempted to go for the spot between the middle and right post, using the "goal" idea. (The pic also shows the gem between two pillars. The idea of using the pic for locating a spot is unproven of course, but you never know.) Perhaps this section of railing could be represented by the strut underneath the arms.

Does Roanoke have waves on its shores?  Being shielded (armored?) by the barrier islands is a factor. I'm looking at the wave shape in the armor piece in image 3 and the line about a path beckons.  In accordance with following the exactness of words, I think looking for "waves" is critical. Additionally, Im critical of how a bar across a path to the beach is in any way beckoning...its warding or impeding.

when it is windy there are definitely waves. but they are not directly from the ocean. but ocean waves  can also reflect around the ends of barrier islands into the inland waters.

I have yet to do some research on this, but I'm putting it down anyways. Speaking with a book buff today, I was told about a theory that Baum chose Oz as a reference to the ounce unit oz. because it had something to do with his position on the silver vs gold standard.

The first line: Pass two friends of octave Initially this serves to focus on the Wright Bros. Monument, since the brothers were friends of Octave Chanute of French origin. Later, at the site of the casque, the words 'friends' and 'octave' have new application.  Octave means "eighth", which may be represented as the fraction 1/8th.  Friends in French is the word 'ami'.  The fraction is a thing smaller than the whole and I suspect it's interpreted as "small" or "little" which might be an application of the french word 'petit(e)'.  A petit ami might apply to friends in a romantic relationship.  It is taken to mean "my little friend".  I don't know French, so I'm probably butchering this interpretation, sorry.  I'm trying to relate the idea that the USSLS of Chicamacomico as home to the Midgett family and the term 'petit ami'.  Maybe there's another way to look at it.  I'm just spouting my ideas.

Popularly known as the “Breeches Buoy Rescue Reenactment,” the large mast structure that looks like a football goal post literally passes friends from the platform across the beach and down to safety.  The first line about passing two friends of octave has dual applcation, first to recognize the Wright Bros and then last to connect to the casque spot at the site of the summer drills.

I have family going to the Outer Banks today for vacation. They said they would go to Roanoke and dig if I give them a good location. As of now I was going to tell them to dig under the right side of the overlook post where it's flat. Not sure if Preiss would put it right on the path you use to get to the beach. I'm not too thrilled about the bench being the spot unless someone gives good reason. I also doubt it's on the beach due to the possibility of water erosion and the casque being lost. If anyone has any other ideas please share. They only have time for one site but even if they don't find it at least we can possibly rule out a spot.

Deuce wrote:: I have family going to the Outer Banks today for vacation. They said they would go to Roanoke and dig if I give them a good location. As of now I was going to tell them to dig under the right side of the overlook post where it's flat. Not sure if Preiss would put it right on the path you use to get to the beach. I'm not too thrilled about the bench being the spot unless someone gives good reason. I also doubt it's on the beach due to the possibility of water erosion and the casque being lost. If anyone has any other ideas please share. They only have time for one site but even if they don't find it at least we can possibly rule out a spot. The best reason I can come up with is to eliminate possibilities. I strongly believe its under that bench given the posts in the picture. If you are going to dig there, might as well try out all the possibilities. At the very least take tons of pics, especially of the bench. (under it, on the side, the legs, etc) Good luck! you will be making Secret history!!!!

Has that bench always been there? If so, in that same spot? Is it the same bench that has always been there? If its ever been replaced, visual confirmers may be lost.

Deuce wrote:: Has that bench always been there? If so, in that same spot? Is it the same bench that has always been there? If its ever been replaced, visual confirmers may be lost. I suspect from the photos that the bench is fixed on that location with cement or some other anchoring method. It also looks well weathered but nothing is known for sure.

I know benches in some climates get rotated every 10 years.  Outdoor benches get really beat up in coastal conditions.

Being on a coast with possible windy conditions and hurricanes I would also think the bench would have to be attached to the ground somehow. That's a good thing. There would have to be something in the ground for the bench to connect to. I don't see them replacing the ground supports just to replace the bench. So we can assume that if that bench has always been there, it's been in the exact same location for the last 30 years. Lets just hope it's not on a concrete slab!

I recommend against just waltzing in with a shovel and digging. The park is federal land; it and the beach immediately adjacent to it are under special protection as archaeological sites. Be prepared to pay a hefty fine (and maybe do some jail time) by digging without permission. Just sayin'.

Yeah you're right. I wonder how Preiss buried some of the casques without being caught. He had to know we would have issues with digging on these private lands.

Does someone need to be bailed out of jail?

Ha. We should all donate a little money to a special account. That way if one of us gets into some trouble digging, we can have our fines paid for. That or pay off the one who catches us.

Deuce wrote:: Yeah you're right. I wonder how Preiss buried some of the casques without being caught. He had to know we would have issues with digging on these private lands. Preiss used disguises, he knew there was a risk. Maybe that's why he buried in the winter when it wasn't tourist season.

rookhunter wrote:: Preiss used disguises, he knew there was a risk. Maybe that's why he buried in the winter when it wasn't tourist season. I always pictured him wearing a parrot on his shoulder and an eye patch digging in the middle of a a summer's day.

Unknown: I remember well when there were only a handful of homes in Rodanthe at all and Mirlo Beach really was just a dream. lol ("dare to dream the impossible dream" was on their sign when they first started.) Cask 3 Verse 11 Rodanthe I found a picture of this sign along Highway 12 near the Chicamacomico Life Saving Station, I'd like to know how long it's been there or if it had been there since 1981 and did it then have the words "Dare to dream the impossible dream" written below "MIRLO BEACH"? The part that interests me most is the link it might have to the line of verse, "Where white is in color" Since "With two maps" follows, it's easy to consider the connection it might be making to John White, the colonist/cartographer and grandfather to Virgina Dare -interesting that the sign contains the word "Dare".  Had the line capitalized the word as "White", then it would be a sure fit for John White, but as it's lower case, I would prefer to prioritize finding something which is actually the white in color.  This sign above uses white letters to spell the word "MIRLO" which is the word for a blackbird, which makes it more interesting since we have some letters, white in color, spelling a word for a blackbird, named for it's color. I haven't given any thought to the connection this might have to Don Quixote.  Something to consider.  "Dream the impossible dream", The Quest. e: briefly looking at the lyrics from the Man of La Mancha, there's a line from Aldonza saying "These ridiculous...things you do!" and then towards the end of song, Quixote says, "That one man, scorned and covered with scars, Still strove, with his last ounce of courage, To reach the unreachable stars!".  The mention of "ounce of courage" and "ridiculous" actions of Don Quixote may fit the "Ride the man of oz" line, translating it to mean "Ridicule the man of courage" since oz could be ounce. The Wright Brothers memorial words, "In commemoration of the conquest of the air by the brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright conceived by genius achieved by dauntless resolution and unconquerable faith," may be a good parallel to Don Quixote's faith-filled and determined quest to reach for the stars. ee: ooh, another idea just jumped to mind.  There's a common question about dreaming in color.  Some people claim they only dream in black and white.  Perhaps to those people, it is an "impossible dream" to dream in color. eee: found this from someone who writes this as if they remember the early days of home building in Rodanthe,

forest_blight wrote:: It's a fair point. But the verse says "Ride the man of oz / To the land near the window." But you are assuming that verse 11 is associated with the image. I am asking, in general, because I've found verse 10 to be almost as equally viable. Do note, I still have a specific spot on Roanoke that I truly believe is the location, but I am just doing some tangential (dangerous!) research in the meantime.

You are right, I am assuming that. I am open to other ideas, but it would take a lot of evidence to convince me otherwise.

What?!?  ???  With the references to the Wright brothers with a word for word quote from the memorial, besides inconquerable of course, how can you consider a different verse? That would almost require casque in hand. I have no doubt that we have the correct verse/image match. Anything else is a waste of time. Just saying.

forest_blight wrote:: fox, I've been trying. No one seems to remember. The intern who placed trail markers throughout the trail in the 1970s (Ken Johns) has such a common name that I couldn't track him down. I can't find photos, either. I'd give my right ar... well, maybe a pinky toe to find out what was on that sign. I found Ken, and am currently having exchanges with his friend, a ranger at the park until 2006. Will have news regarding the chopped-off posts today, I think! Update (I'll keep probing): The lopped off posts are supports for the old trail bench, which was just a halved log placed horizontally between the posts. They probably date from the 1960s. The present teak bench was a gift to the park from Colonial Dames or Colonial Daughters or some group like that. There was a little plaque on it, but the lettering may be worn away now. They also gave the bench at the beginning of the trail. There was probably a trail marker at this spot earlier. There were little aluminum signs with screen printed text. The message was probably something similar to what is there now, but probably without the drawing. I think there is something shown of London Bridge with grisly heads on pikes. The earlier signs were more about the botany, present signs more about the ecology. I can't recall exactly when the present trail signs were installed. The signs themselves were fabricated by some place out west-Utah or something. Chief of Interpretation Bob Woody ordered them. They seem to hold up well. hxxp://www.whitedoeinn.com/innkeepers.htm - I'll work on contacting Bob (plumb? ) and see if he has additional insight too.

This is my current understanding... any body else's differ?

I like the highway 12 idea. Could be a double meaning since the first flight was in December.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I found Ken, and am currently having exchanges with his friend, a ranger at the park until 2006. Will have news regarding the chopped-off posts today, I think! Update (I'll keep probing): The lopped off posts are supports for the old trail bench, which was just a halved log placed horizontally between the posts. They probably date from the 1960s. The present teak bench was a gift to the park from Colonial Dames or Colonial Daughters or some group like that. There was a little plaque on it, but the lettering may be worn away now. They also gave the bench at the beginning of the trail. There was probably a trail marker at this spot earlier. There were little aluminum signs with screen printed text. The message was probably something similar to what is there now, but probably without the drawing. I think there is something shown of London Bridge with grisly heads on pikes. The earlier signs were more about the botany, present signs more about the ecology. I can't recall exactly when the present trail signs were installed. The signs themselves were fabricated by some place out west-Utah or something. Chief of Interpretation Bob Woody ordered them. They seem to hold up well. You found him?? Well done! How did you do it?? A lot of the current trail markers are about botany, or rather the colonists' likely agricultural activities, etc. As for heads on pikes... they would be seen standing, and I certainly wouldn't want to touch them.

Im convinced this has nothing to do with Oz.  The "oz" is meant to mean "one" although it is presented as "ounce".  The idea to use oz is very clever.  Ive been really enthusiastic about perceiving image 3 as an elaborate jousting dummy.  It serves as a hint about Don Quixote and his horse Rocinante.

Block and tackle is a conclusion Ive drawn from the objects suspended by lines in image 3 and the ending line of verse "your goal" as a football clue.  Football gear is just like the jousting dummy, armored head to torso but not the legs.

Has anyone noticed a detail from the film footage of the first flight where the off-duty men from Kill Devil Hills LSS are pulling a rope together?  Its rigged to a big lead weight thats being hoisted up a skeletal tower as the potential energy source for the Wright Flyer's take off launch from the track on the hill. Thats a perfect reason for having a bunch of objects hanging from lines in image 3. I discovered theres a certain theme interconnecting some elements.  Oz, of the Wizard of Oz, is an inventor, he utilizes the form of flight that preceded the Wright Bros... the hot air balloon.  The theme for this puzzle is the suspension of objects and the inventions for that purpose which transports people from one place to another.* *George W. Manby

Hey all! I went to Roanoke Island to poke around. No finds but it was fun! The bench is sadly not connected to the ground. I was able to easily move it. I did find an odd wooden post buried in the ground near the bench. I'll post pictures soon'

Dropping a note here on a theory I've developed about a sign that references Dare, presumably in connection with John White's grand daughter, and the Man of La Mancha song The Impossible Dream. The only reference I could find that helps date the sign as pre-existing is at hxxp://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g6 ... olina.html I think it relates well to the First Flight, where the Wright Brothers in their dauntless courage reached for the skies and realized their dream for the impossible. I also think "Man of oz" relates in an odd way to "Man of La Mancha" in the sense that Don Quixote was so small in a sense. I spent a fine weekend on the coast reading an early printing of Don Quixote. It's a fantastic book. I'm not discounting the relationship to Baum's Wizard of Oz, but I think there's ample room for discussion on how this all fits together, since nobody has a casque in hand to say otherwise.

erexere wrote:: the hot air balloon. actually it was a hydrogen balloon

I assumed hot air since that's the visual in my mind...maybe the latest James Franco version. I don't recall reading the word "hydrogen" in the original printing of the Wizard of Oz. The hot air balloon idea also involved something discussed by other members here about the Verse 5 "wingless bird ascending". They were probably considering the hydrogen balloon and specific variants including the Zeppelin. Thanks for you're correction.

I've really been thinking a lot about "mica and driftwood." I always wanted this to mean "the beach" (i.e., sand and driftwood), but it never felt right that BP would have two words pointing to the beach, especially when he uses words so carefully. Plus, sand isn't really mica,right? I was very interested in the uses of mica for a while, and I tried to find portions of the palisade that used joint compound. I wondered about its use as a fire retardant and how the theater had burned so many times. Recently, I came across a small building on the beach that is sided with asbestos... Would that count? What are your thoughts on "mica?"

always thought of mica, as in stone maybe a sandstone building, or wall hxxp://www.mcmonaglestone.ie/_fileUploa ... os_012.jpg hxxp://www.houzz.com/photos/2439073/Ren ... iladelphia

Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the "CRO" tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly "under that". Too simple?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the "CRO" tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly "under that". Too simple? four- I like literal interpretations. Absolutely not too simple. It would be worth a probe if the age checks out... While I'm not sure about the age of the tree prop, do you or anyone know if that gate has for sure been dug at from the beach side? Dug down enough, and forward possibly to be actually under the gate? Can we for sure rule this out? To me, that is something that is last touched (i.e. when you leave somewhere the last thing that you do is close a door). And the first thing (structure?) seen standing to anyone approaching the beach there (let's say by boat) would be the gate ( hxxp://www.carolsorgen.com/sampledet.as ... ampleId=69 ). I don't know. I like this area, and it would be the secluded, back part of the park. And to me, the column that is holding the suit of armor looks similar to one of the gate columns.

cw0909 wrote:: i think this is the plaque, does anyone know what it says To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Beach...beech...? . . . . . . . . . Here's a couple more pics of the Bell plaque.

Has anyone ever noticed that the clappers on those two bells are a "circle and square"...?

forest_blight wrote:: Has anyone ever noticed that the clappers on those two bells are a "circle and square"...? I didn't, but I know someone who has and happens to think they actually match a certain device used by the coast guard.

I just thought they looked like wind chimes.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the "CRO" tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly "under that". Too simple? Simple is good! Where is the CRO tree prop located? I've seen close-up shots of it, like the one below from Flickr, but then I can't find it when I see the big, open shots of the theater . Is it something on wheels that gets rolled out for certain scenes, or is it hidden by other scenery most of the time?

Last line analysis: Your goal. = something that looks like a goal post or a net.

Was just thinking about the word 'octave' in the first line, generally attributed to Octave Chanute, but I wondered if oct-ave could work as a hint for 8th Avenue or even 10th Ave, if there were any justification for looking at the puzzle that way. I don't think 'octave' takes such usage here, but I thought I'd share the idea anyhow.

MrSeabass wrote:: I think it's interesting, but looking at historical aerial imagery, 8th and 10th avenues barely even existed in 1983. The first line is strongly confirmed to be Octave Chanute as the connection to Kitty Hawk/the Wright Brothers is what establishes the verse. Also since all other visual landmass clues point to Roanoke Island and Fort Raleigh specifically. No other interpretations will help this one unless it deals with that area in particular; of all the ten remaining sites (besides St. Augustine) this one is the best candidate of narrowing down the area where it can be buried at. Not to give you a hard time, but its clear to most that very little of anything is "strongly confirmed". Some people maintain a strong prejudice for a particular link, and others remain open minded to a fault that the only confirmation of anything will come not until the next casque is actually pulled from the soil. In as much as we generally agree the word 'octave' is attributed to Octave Chanute, and by association place an interest in the Wright memorial, that doesn't fully release us from exploring any additional motivation in why the line was written in that way. The first word, 'pass', is interesting. Does it only suggest movement beyond that historic marker, or can it also suggest something in connection with the last word of verse? "Pass...goal". I'd be tempted to run down a team sport oriented perspective. For what reason, I'm not completely sure, but I do like the sense of football, since 8-man is something 'octave' could apply. The armor could easily relate to the shoulder pads and harness of a football player. Actually, this reminds me a lot of the character Wez from Mad Max (1979), who had a big red mohawk, wore football gear, and had a weapon strapped to his gauntlet. Its a fun thought... "man of oz" = man of Aus. Mad Max is Australian right?

Oh, most of everything people have put forth is wrong. Yes, most of my ideas are wrong and yes, the Mad Max, man of Aus is stupid, but it was funny. What do you have that works?

Unknown: If I have nothing to contribute, then I do not bring it up. I've never claimed that anything works. Thank you MrSeabass. I was a little low on irony today.

MrSeabass wrote:: if all we see are the fruitless crazy ramblings of someone so obviously missing the forest through the trees. This then must be the proper way to do an ad hominem attack, Thanks, I will make a note.

MrSeabass wrote:: If I have nothing to contribute, then I do not bring it up. I've never claimed that anything works. Nice attempt at an Ad Hominem. I don't have anything against you. I don't even mind trying to understand your point of view. If I had the freedom to delete the majority of my posts, I would, since they've not met the standard for being discussion worthy or I've moved on to something more preferable. All I hope to see out of these forums is that an idea, even one that don't seem worthy at the time, falls in line with the right circumstance and graduates to become a concrete part of a casque discovery. I've had many and continue to have conflicts with folks here, but that doesn't cause my ego any injury and I'm not here to hurt anyone's feelings. I've learned a lot of respect for people in the process and found it valuable to know their criticism and see what kind of theory they're working at. Surprisingly, less people are on the same page than it might seem. Sometimes, we must have differences, because some pieces of the puzzles are missing or there are categorical elements that have yet to be tested. In the four years that I've been challenging my own assumptions, I believe there's been real progress by many of the folks here. They've been testing the ideas shared in forum. It may be that nothing I've dredged up has anything to do with that progress...and that's okay with me; I'm just happy to offer my support and represent my struggle to meet Byron's challenge in the best way that I know. I'm sure you have strong opinions about something in how these puzzles work. You should share more so we can understand where you're coming from. Claiming something works isn't exactly a claim that something is correct. I see it more as an idea that you might have about the puzzle and how some verifiable evidence supports it. For example, you feel sure that the word 'White' represents John White, grandfather to Virginia Dare, and you've followed some interpretation to a place near the Dare memorial, therefore you might conclude that the Dare memorial works for your idea. Discovery is a more interesting process when you've worked out your ideas to some extent and then stop to consider whats going on in the context you've landed yourself in. I had my own idea about the puzzle that involved a Dare reference. I think the Wright memorial is important to the puzzle. It represents the achievement of flight through determination and faith. I saw the roadside sign south of Roanoke as you enter Rodanthe and it said "Dare to dream the impossible dream". Thats a quote from the 1965 song The Quest, used in Peter O'Tool's Man of La Mancha. Its essentially the same message as the Wright memorial. See the lyrics and you'll understand. The sign obviously is a nod to Virginia Dare and I verified it was pre-existing to 1981 and so there is a possibility for a connection. There is no certainty that we move into or past Roanoke as one might travel along hwy-12. The verse says "theres a road that leads to dark forest", which may suggest Roanoke and the Lost Colony, but does that mean we TAKE that road or simply note that it is THERE as we continue a journey south towards Pea Island and beyond where we might encounter this Dare sign? Its an idea that works for me at the moment. I have found a practice structure shaped like a large T, known as the Chicamacomico Wreck Pole. That works because it echoes the visual of an armored practice dummy. The Wreck Pole is a dummy ships mast used for practice drills in July and August. Its at the end of Laura Ln next to Midgett Dr. I still like the idea that man of oz is a reference to a Munchkin or midget.

Unknown: You should share more so we can understand where you're coming from. This. Surely you have more to offer than telling erexere how stupid you think his idea are. I mean, we already know THAT.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: This. Surely you have more to offer than telling erexere how stupid you think his idea are. I mean, we already know THAT. R....you dog.

Unknown: In commemoration of the conquest of the air by the brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright conceived by genius achieved by dauntless resolution and unconquerable faith. Unknown: Let this duenna come and ask what she will, for I will effect her relief by the might of my arm and the dauntless resolution of my bold heart. The Wright Brothers memorial words, From Don Quixote, Vol. II, end of Chapter XXXVI, Viginia Dare (American), born August 1587 Miquel de Cervantes (Spain), lived 1547-1616. I'm taking note of the contemporary timeline. It was because of the mounting war with Spain that John White left the Roanoke Colony. He returned 3 years later to learn of the Colony's disappearance.

Rocinante, the name of Don Quixote's horse, has an interesting connotation. It basically means "putting an old nag up on a pedestal." Someone who is past their prime being elevated to a grand status, such as Don Quixote himself.

There are three possibilities. Go to the secret wiki and it explains it all. 1. a tree from 1500's (at the base of it) "first seen standing" 2. The croatan tree at the waterside theater. 3. At the gate in the Elizabethan Gardens. "go to the land near the window - there is the shape of roanoke island

Hi all, first post. I found what I think is a new reference to "July and August." This YouTube video shows a sign directly outside the Waterside Theater with "July and August" on it. This new information probably won't help in finding the casque, but you never know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rED8Dl_xk

What a great find! Is that sign still there? Was it there in 1981?

I have no idea about the date, but here's a screenshot of the youtube video. Thanks, Cleveland Steve.

forest_blight wrote:: What a great find! Yep. Nice one.

Cleveland Steve wrote:: Hi all, first post. I found what I think is a new reference to "July and August." This YouTube video shows a sign directly outside the Waterside Theater with "July and August" on it. This new information probably won't help in finding the casque, but you never know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rED8Dl_xk I also found this out In July and August there are visible meteor showers and if you look at picture 3 you can see meteor showers.

Welcome! Here is a link to an article which I think supports why I find it acceptable to consider the Life Saving Station 30 minutes south of Roanoke. This connection has value as it relates to the men who helped Orville and Wilber get their plane off the ground that day. https://www.uscg.mil/history/articles/i ... le_men.asp

I use to think the writing on the Wright Monument was quoted exactly in the verse, but after taking a closer look I see only a strong similarity, which doesn't mean it's not intended to be evidence of that monument for some particular role it plays in the puzzle, but it does lead me to wonder why Byron wrote it exactly as he did. I've found a road sign at Chicamacomico that says "Dare to dream the impossible dream," which is clearly inspired by two things: a person (Virginia Dare) + a song (The Quest aka Dream the Impossible Dream). This is among many brilliant moves by Byron Preiss in which he takes a moment to appreciate the meaning of a recognizable line from something he deems fitting for the theme or context of his particular puzzle. In Charleston he uses the Treasure Island line "Of all the romance retold" to effect as a key reference to bird mating call lingo known as "drumming," because the drum is a key component of that puzzle. In Houston he quotes Melville's "what we take to be our strongest tower of delight falls gently," because that page of the book also talks about the Fates (Three weird sisters) as it relates to death. I see a perfect opportunity there for Preiss to have taken only a moment to consider the Atropos sculpture in Herman Park and then pull out a favorite line in a book he once studied by Herman Melville. I think Preiss made a similar, fun connection when he worked his mojo in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. He already knew the Don Quixote stuff. He recognized the sign along the road and thought of the song. It's a song about pure determination. It's about finding the strength to reach the unreachable goal. That kind of meaning aligns precisely with the language used on the Wright memorial, because those brothers accomplished something nobody else before them could, First Flight. It's an awesome achievement and right up their with the idea of Don Quixote. Being a literary person, Byron had to jump at the opportunity. A couple days ago I posted that link to a 1977 local news article where it mentions both a woman named Baum and the life saving station workers named Midgett. How could Preiss or anyone literary NOT think of the Munchkin's of Baum's land of Oz? Another perfect opportunity. The verse and the painting represents the task of leading a searcher to a spot 30 minutes south of Roanoke where a large road sign with the name of John White's grandaughter Virgina Dare has been cleverly worked into a well recognized song line from 1965: the sign for Mirlo Beach, where we dare to dream the impossible dream [in color]. That's a thing right? People often talk about dreaming in color or black and white. The word "Mirlo" sounds like the dark-blue colored wine grape, and is also a name for the "blackbird". Check this comparison of verse to monument to song: This is the original Wreck Pole:

MrSeabass wrote:: https://youtu.be/OZeHq7J9aHM Of course I could be wrong. I've cited facts from which I've drawn conclusions. I'm brave enough to share an idea. MrSeabass, you're intelligence isn't in question, but rather than cite facts of you're own, or draw different conclusions from the facts I've shared, you convey only as much as to say "I am wrong" or "I am stupid". I could say you're also being brave, but in actuality you're being a typical coward like a lot of people who troll on the internet. They aren't brave enough to explain their position. They demonstrate disatisfaction at every turn and they distract for their own purposes rather than show the world they are worthy of any respect by making any sense or contribution of their own.

Nope, not mad. Just using sentences and feeding you of my own free will.

erexere wrote:: ... rather than cite facts of you're own, or draw different conclusions from the facts I've shared, you convey only as much as to say "I am wrong" or "I am stupid". I could say you're also being brave, but in actuality you're being a typical coward like a lot of people who troll on the internet. They aren't brave enough to explain their position. They demonstrate disatisfaction at every turn and they distract for their own purposes rather than show the world they are worthy of any respect by making any sense or contribution of their own. And I've been doing neither. I just have one question... Say I believe your theory... Why is it any better then the Elizabethan Gardens or Fort Raleigh or Nags Head? Or for that matter, why is Fort Raleigh or Nags Head or the Elizabethan Gardens any better than your theory? Think about that for a while. From my perspective, with the information you / you all have, all plausible theories are equally plausible. Why are they equally as plausible? Why couldn't the casque have been in the Italian gardens in Cleveland? Why can't the Milwaukee casque be in Oregon? Why can't 2 + 2 equal 22, despite the various evidence we have that it might be true? There's subjectivity, and there is plausibility, and there is evidence... and then there are facts. Did you ever find that Comey quote about puzzles? Did Preiss make a completely subjective puzzle and expect us to figure it out?

E... while I think your ideas are absolutely ridiculous, I am more on board with "looking for a new way to solve these puzzles" than you think. I can truly appreciate the fact that you are bucking the "Cleveland - Chicago" paradigm. I think you may be one of only a handful that are.

I havent followed up on the Comey ref. I will get to it soon. Yes,my theories are ridiculous. I dont how he would avoid visual subjectivity aside from very plain symbolism. This stuff ranks higher in the range of complexity as it borrows from literary interpretation and it seems impossible for anyone to know whats what unless they have home court advantage.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Who are the "you all" included in this grouping of yours?

Merlot Brougham wrote:: Who are the "you all" included in this grouping of yours? Myself, and anybody who has posted since I became a member, and many who posted before that. Nobody has been able to PROVE a theory correct, only argue that it is correct. What would you need to PROVE something correct?

Unknown: What would you need to PROVE something correct? A few more casques would be a good start. Because as it stands right now, we can't even agree on how the Cleveland and Chicago solves inform the rest of the puzzles. Or even if they do.

Cleveland Steve wrote:: Hi all, first post. I found what I think is a new reference to "July and August." This YouTube video shows a sign directly outside the Waterside Theater with "July and August" on it. This new information probably won't help in finding the casque, but you never know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rED8Dl_xk Hey Cleveland Steve! Another fellow Clevelander here! I just got re-interested in The Secret after we decided on going back to the Outer Banks for vacation in 2017. I was on the board a while ago (10+ years) but just came back. I also just got the book for a penny on Amazon. It's not what I was expecting at all. But anyway, I started researching this one again, and I apologize if this has been discussed already. Carolina Designs realty has a blog on their web site about OBX history. I e-mailed the author and asked him if the Washington Baum Bridge was so named in 1981. He said it was named thus in '62, so "Ride the Man of Oz," IMO, refers to the bridge... Or... I also contacted the NC Transportation Authority about ferries named Baum, and there indeed is one that is still in service, and has been since the '70s. And it used to go to Roanoke Island.

Jockey's Ridge State Park , established by Baum in the mid '70's seems like a good fit for "Ride the man of oz".

erexere wrote:: Jockey's Ridge State Park , established by Baum in the mid '70's seems like a good fit for "Ride the man of oz". Jockey's Ridge is at Milepost 12 on the South Croatan Highway ("In December...")

splumer wrote:: Jockey's Ridge is at Milepost 12 on the South Croatan Highway ("In December...") if I'm not mistaken I think that the point of saying December here is helpful in connecting the first flight date to the puzzle.

There are 6 lines of the verse talking about the WB Memorial. Why so many?

erexere wrote:: if I'm not mistaken I think that the point of saying December here is helpful in connecting the first flight date to the puzzle. ... You are not mistaken.

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but has anyone looked into Coronado Island outside San Diego as a possibility? There are a ton of L Frank Baum connections there and several possible parks.

I was thinking about that "Ride the man of oz" line this afternoon...most of the posts seem to agree that this is a reference to L. Frank Baum, who wrote "The Wizard of Oz", but could it possibly be referring to the actual character of the Wizard instead? According to the internet, which is never wrong, he was a conman from Omaha, NE and his actual name was Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs. Are there any "Diggs" or "Oscars" out there, or possibly even a "Wizard", which could somehow be ridden to the land near the window? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_of_Oz_(character )

Do we have any linguists here? I'm looking at this verse and the word "inconquerable" is curious. I know this word was used long ago, but fell out of favor for unconquerable. The dedication on the Wright Brothers monument uses the word Unconquerable. Is this just a grammatical error or does it refer to something other than the Wright Brothers?

JamesRenner wrote:: Apologies if this has been discussed before, but has anyone looked into Coronado Island outside San Diego as a possibility? There are a ton of L Frank Baum connections there and several possible parks. I lived in San Diego for a long time, I was never able to find any probable links to either verses or images.

gManTexas wrote:: Do we have any linguists here? I'm looking at this verse and the word "inconquerable" is curious. I know this word was used long ago, but fell out of favor for unconquerable. The dedication on the Wright Brothers monument uses the word Unconquerable. Is this just a grammatical error or does it refer to something other than the Wright Brothers? Bump

Thought I would bring this verse up again. A while ago, I thought it had the best chance of being solved since it was a clear walkthrough the Elizabethan Gardens. Just to review: Pass two friends of octave In December (Kitty Hawk/Wright Brothers) Ride the man of oz (take Baum ferry service) To the land near the window (to Roanoke Island ‘image to verse’) There's a road that leads to Dark forest (Elizabethan garden, plaque at entrance with words “dark forest” to describe garden) Where white is in color With two maps (?Map of garden with white color and black background) After circle and square (pass the sunken garden) In July and August A path beckons To mica and driftwood (one of the paths to the beach behind the sunken garden) Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing (???) Look north at the wing And dig To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal. The tricky part of this walkthrough has been the final part. It’s frustrating because there is not much past the sunken garden besides the gate and the gazebo. Neither really seems to fit specifically with last touched or first seen standing. Also, I recall the park had maps (in black and white) in the area but I can’t seem to find one (or two) specifically for the garden. Thoughts?

davinci4 wrote:: I recall the park had maps (in black and white) in the area but I can’t seem to find one (or two) specifically for the garden. I kept a local copy of a map of the gardens, and I assume I got the original image from someone here. My file is dated 2014, and it's going to be a pain to find the original post, and the original link might even be dead by now, so... give me a few mins and I'll upload my copy... Here ya go! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 769101310/

catherwood wrote:: I kept a local copy of a map of the gardens, and I assume I got the original image from someone here. My file is dated 2014, and it's going to be a pain to find the original post, and the original link might even be dead by now, so... give me a few mins and I'll upload my copy... Here ya go! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 769101310/ Thanks! ....too bad on this one. Reading some of the other posts, it’s likely is was buried under the watergate and probably got washed away. Some very compelling arguments regarding the gate, one even mentioned an old latch that had a resemblance to the armor in the image (haven’t seen the pick yet). ..wonder if the “wing” may have referred to the gate since it is doubled-winged.

White was the artist who did the images on signs around the park.

So what is the consensus on this one? With shore line erosion at the watergate, it seems that this casque is not recoverable. Time to put this one on the shelf in the ‘solved but not recoverable’ category?

MrSeabass wrote:: Not yet. Barrier island erosion was well known for a long time, and even if nobody anticipated the future hurricane damages and land erosion, I would want to believe BP would be smart enough to bury something in an area with a better chance of stability and protection. Most of the other burials and their proposed solutions place objects largely within a barriered park or otherwise within the boundss of man-made constructs. Putting something in the ground that is largely only bounded by the ocean... I would doubt that. Have to remember that things like the water table had to be considered too when it came to burying near the coast. Too close/to deep and you hit water. That’s a great point. I agree. He spent so much time crafting these casques you would think that he would have buried them in a relatively ‘stable’ area. I wonder if the gates were open at one point. I am picturing one ‘wing’ of the gate opened with the casque buried under it just adjacent to the “path that beckons.” Would be great if someone had older (1980s) pictures of the watergate they could share. A detailed analysis of the area on the ‘garden side’ of the watergate might provide vital clues. There seem to be more pics of the ‘shore-side’ available.

davinci4 wrote:: He spent so much time crafting these casques you would think that he would have buried them in a relatively ‘stable’ area. This is one of Paul Kitchen's pictures of the Water Gate from the beach side, from, maybe, 2013 or so...? I don't think BP could have anticipated the thing falling into the sea back in 1982, when he must have imagined them being found within a few years. (Still, there's been no definitive posts about image matches or "last touched or first seen standing", so it might still be knocking around somewhere.)

“Still, there's been no definitive posts about image matches or "last touched or first seen standing", so it might still be knocking around somewhere.” That’s very true. The optimistic in me wants to the think it was buried on the ‘garden-side’ of the gate by the posts. WhiteRabbit, there was someone named Mateo who claimed there was a latch on the gate that matched a piece of the suit of armor. Are you familiar with any images that would corroborate this finding? One other thing that may warrant discussion. That fact that it was buried “under” something seems curious if we are talking about the gate.

davinci4 wrote:: WhiteRabbit, there was someone named Mateo who claimed there was a latch on the gate that matched a piece of the suit of armor. Are you familiar with any images that would corroborate this finding? ...no, I've only seen the usual images with what looks like a chain and padlock...

Yes. The latch. Probably what Mateo was referring to, hardly a match to anything in the painting. ..I really like your idea of the knight pointing downwards to the casque with archway being a representation of the water gate. The last part of the verse implies that you are on the shore (looking north at Kitty Hawk), hard to see any other object (besides the gate) being a fit. Also, not many other objects in that area besides a bench and the watergate itself which Preiss could have used as a marker. Over the years, I have been getting away from image matching at the burial sites and focusing more on the verses. The two that have been found seem to have strong markers at the casque (perhaps the reason why they were found), I am just not convinced they all work that way. This one, in particular, seems to be a pretty convincing solution even without any markers.

I'm a newcomer to the world of Image 3 and Verse 11, but I had the opportunity to visit the Air & Space Museum in DC this morning. No new information from their awesome Wright Brothers exhibit, just wanted to share these photos to corroborate what others had already pulled up.

To the land near the window I have not found this line discussed much. I see this as a way marker for Roanoke Island. So many others are mentioning other areas as alternatives. I don't see it as possible. Many searchers before me have studied these images and verses for years and years. Their hard work cannot merely be tossed aside. Here's my view (see what I did there?) of this line: The window is the Oregon outlet which is where the boats go from the Sound to the deep ocean waters. "To the land" refers to Roanoke Is"land". This line lets us know that we need to go to Roanoke Island which is near the Oregon inlet. I bring this up because others are talking about the possibility of the casque being buried on the Outer Banks at Nags Head or the Wright Bros. monument. Keep this in mind, the lands of the Outer Banks aren't land "near" the window,....they are lands that create the "window". The island of Roanoke is "near" the window while the outer banks isles ARE the window. Thoughts?

I have found 3 new hidden clues in the image......I'm pretty sure I have solved this puzzle.

MERLIN wrote:: I have found 3 new hidden clues in the image......I'm pretty sure I have solved this puzzle. It's in Roanoke, Alabama? Roanoke, Illinois...? Would you believe Roanoke, Indiana? How about Kentucky...or, Louisiana....? ? Texas or Missouri....? ? ? (West Virginia...?) </Maxwell Smart> hxxp://www.placesnamed.com/r/o/roanoke.asp

Unknown: It's in Roanoke, Alabama? Well crap. No wonder I can't find it. Good news for our friends in 'bama, though. Roll Tide.

Mister EZ wrote:: It's in Roanoke, Alabama? Roanoke, Illinois...? Would you believe Roanoke, Indiana? How about Kentucky...or, Louisiana....? ? Texas or Missouri....? ? ? (West Virginia...?) </Maxwell Smart> hxxp://www.placesnamed.com/r/o/roanoke.asp https://youtu.be/l6i-gYRAwM0 12 seconds in he tells you where the casks are buried.

Unknown: I'm pretty sure I have solved this puzzle. In all seriousness, my understanding is that the next podcast is going to feature the Roanoke puzzle, so your timing couldn't be better. You may want to reach out to them Merlin.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: https://youtu.be/l6i-gYRAwM0 12 seconds in he tells you where the casks are buried. So that's what JM looks like....

The reason we know it's gotta be in Elizabethan Gardens is because the Park says its not. https://elizabethangardens.org/the-secr ... sure-hunt/

Unknown: because the Park says its not They don't say that at all. They are saying they are not involved. If it is there, it's because Preiss put it there without their knowledge or permission. The thing you need to ask yourself is do you think he would do that? And before you answer, consider the phone call he would have received from the fine ladies of The Garden Club of North Carolina the very first time someone was caught digging surreptitiously in their gardens, looking for buried treasure.

Honestly I can’t believe he would have buried them anywhere public or private in this day and age; probably why Michael Stadther put tokens in tree knots when his book came out. Guess the 80’s were a much different time.

Unknown: Guess the 80’s were a much different time. They were. But my guess is that the phone call he would have received back then would be just as scathing as the one he would receive today, were he alive. It would have just been a little more expensive to place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV__vRQ8fC0

We wish you the best in your search but rest assured the search does not include The Elizabethan Gardens. In my world, that's exactly what they are saying. I was just trying to have a little fun with the comment and the fact that they mention the Search on their website.

What's the chance of Hurricane Florence flooding causing the casque to be unearthed (perhaps during cleanup)?

Elcid wrote:: What's the chance of Hurricane Florence flooding causing the casque to be unearthed (perhaps during cleanup)? Knowing our luck - it will probably create a sink hole and suck it down 80ft. further.

MERLIN wrote:: Knowing our luck - it will probably create a sink hole and suck it down 80ft. further. Now that's funny right there.

Elcid wrote:: What's the chance of Hurricane Florence flooding causing the casque to be unearthed (perhaps during cleanup)? already travelled there...it was at the tree on the raised bit on the right hand side of the beach at the end of the rightmost path at the end of dare avenue leading to the beach. and you are 1000% correct...its gone. despite the fact trees are shown intact on googlemaps, when i went there in late february of this year every single tree less that one stripped tree in the middle of the middle of the beach were overturned. it would have been on the west side of that tree, but the root structure was as wide and expansive as the canopy, so it def unearthed it and it was washed away in the sea. | i did the whole thing and can explain whole solution. i made some videos but the camerwork is terrible lol

theres a picture here on the forum somewhere might be under anus905 if it wasnt deleted by mark perry.

Josh, where was your dig site on Roanoke Island?

JoshCornell wrote:: already travelled there...it was at the tree on the raised bit on the right hand side of the beach at the end of the rightmost path at the end of dare avenue leading to the beach. (and would have been on the west side).

i literally just explained it above...lol...

JoshCornell wrote:: already travelled there...it was at the tree on the raised bit on the right hand side of the beach at the end of the rightmost path at the end of dare avenue leading to the beach. (and would have been on the west side). I'm pretty sure you mean left side.

no, right side by the houseish

Fenix wrote:: Should we be paying more attention to inconquerable? I have a very hard time believing that this was just a "typo". Think about Byron's accolades, etc. Would he really screw up this word that is carved in stone? Inconquerable is not even a word....it had to be intentional. Should we be looking for a clue in conquerable? Era, queen, on erable, etc etc etc.... I've been wondering that for a while. Did some research, came up empty. However, inconquerable is an old timey word and was used.

Fenix wrote:: My mistake there....maybe he just changed it. Strange but possible. I found some usage but it was relatively obscure, so I stopped looking. There may be a solid hit out there though.

Fenix wrote:: Should we be paying more attention to inconquerable? I have a very hard time believing that this was just a "typo". Think about Byron's accolades, etc. Would he really screw up this word that is carved in stone? Inconquerable is not even a word....it had to be intentional. Should we be looking for a clue in conquerable? Era, queen, on erable, etc etc etc.... its written on the west side of the monument in kdh, and so tells you to dig on west side of the tree, at the end of right path at end of dare ave (now overturned)....like ive been saying...

the word inconquerable...oh wait youre right it is un...doesn't change anything...just reinforces the reading already espoused. makes the clue way cooler though lol.

JoshCornell wrote:: the word inconqurable... Bullshit artist

JoshCornell wrote:: the word inconquerable...oh wait youre right it is un...doesn't change anything...just reinforces the reading already espoused. makes the clue way cooler though lol. Actually, and to the earlier point it says "Unconquerable"

dizalot wrote:: Actually, and to the earlier point it says "Unconquerable" i love how you read that sentence before posting *bravo*.

dude you need to take a nap or lay off the fucking meth...youve gone full blown troll. doesnt look good on you dawg. if you think i feel bad or guilty or wrong for pointing out how much of a birdass you are...well, i want you to know...i dont. at all.

JoshCornell wrote:: dude you need to take a nap or lay off the fucking meth...youve gone full blown troll. doesnt look good on you dawg. if you think i feel bad or guilty or wrong for pointing out how much of a birdass you are...well, i want you to know...i dont. at all. Who's the troll here?

you are gman. you are. my existence isnt trolling you.

JoshCornell wrote:: you are gman. you are. my existence isnt trolling you. Okay, tough guy. If this is true, stop claiming that you have solved everything and produce a casque. Then your bullshit just might be accepted on this forum.

Goldengate wrote:: It began the day after the Expedition Unknown segment aired and Josh arrived claiming to have solved the puzzle in a week. Yes, there have been other savants who go on about miraculously "solving" one or more casque locations -- but considering Josh's five accounts (three purged and banned), he has posted over 3,000 times... in ten months. I'm as guilty as many others who have repeatedly called him out on the trolling, but that tone and tenor he brought here when he joined was the beginning of the slide. Those 3,000 posts (roughly 2,000 mercifully purged by our moderator) have buried much of what was good about this nearly 20 year old forum, which IMO remains the most important resource on The Secret. You're not alone, Fenix, we've lost several great key searchers, veteran and newcomers alike who are done with his trolling and bullying and have found other forums like Facebook where Josh has been permanently blocked. Those forums are not perfect, they still attract the "I solved it all in one day" crowd... but nothing approaches the toxicity he's brought to bear on this group. I don't think all is lost, I think the vigorous debate, semi-respectful virtual hair pulling and fair discussion can return. But as long as this troll continues to swamp every conversation, I think we all know that simply won't be the case. Until something can be done about it, the forum has become Josh's personal sounding board -- which is exactly what he wants... and that's a shame. Agree GG.

Fenix wrote:: If anybody knows of a place where there is a group of people working together to solve these puzzles without all the drama, please let me know. I'm interested if you will have me. Well said. If you find that place, please pm me. I would love for the opportunity to join.

gManTexas wrote:: Okay, tough guy. If this is true, stop claiming that you have solved everything and produce a casque. Then your bullshit just might be accepted on this forum. or what gman? you wanna piece of me? you wanna piece? *tips hat* *puts up chaplin dukes* *does a little dance* i float like a buttafly...i sting like a like a bee...you wanna piece? you wanna piece of me?!

gg must be writing my biography.

BINGO wrote:: Well said. If you find that place, please pm me. I would love for the opportunity to join. here

Spiritr wrote:: isn't it what this forum is for??? Read the entire post at the top of this page made by fenix. Maybe that will help answer your question. Maybe reading it out loud while looking into a mirror will help it sink in a little better.

Goldengate wrote:: It began the day after the Expedition Unknown segment aired and Josh arrived claiming to have solved the puzzle in a week. Yes, there have been other savants who go on about miraculously "solving" one or more casque locations -- but considering Josh's five accounts (three purged and banned), he has posted over 3,000 times... in ten months. I'm as guilty as many others who have repeatedly called him out on the trolling, but that tone and tenor he brought here when he joined was the beginning of the slide. Those 3,000 posts (roughly 2,000 mercifully purged by our moderator) have buried much of what was good about this nearly 20 year old forum, which IMO remains the most important resource on The Secret. You're not alone, Fenix, we've lost several great key searchers, veteran and newcomers alike who are done with his trolling and bullying and have found other forums like Facebook where Josh has been permanently blocked. Those forums are not perfect, they still attract the "I solved it all in one day" crowd... but nothing approaches the toxicity he's brought to bear on this group. I don't think all is lost, I think the vigorous debate, semi-respectful virtual hair pulling and fair discussion can return. But as long as this troll continues to swamp every conversation, I think we all know that simply won't be the case. Until something can be done about it, the forum has become Josh's personal sounding board -- which is exactly what he wants... and that's a shame. Well said. I used to spend hours a week here pouring over the new posts and enjoying the theories (even the off the wall ones) that were offered. Now I check in every once in awhile just to make sure nothing major has happened I just couldn't take the excessive posting. I hope someday the "old times" will return, or if not that I'll somehow be let in on the "secret" of the other forums.