I couldn't find a thread for verse 9, so I am posting it here. The first chapter Written in water Near men With wind rose Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking Shell, limestone, silver, salt Stars move by day Sails pass by night Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls.

I was just looking around at this verse and something struck me. Some think Salt Lake City is image 11, but no verse has been matched. Check out this connection to verse 9: Shell, limestone, silver, salt Silver Island Mountains Utah Salt Lake City, Utah Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, which are covered with limestone and shells. Here's a good link:  hxxp://www.utahpictures.com/Silver_Island_Mountains.html OK, it's a stretch and probably won't help. wilhouse

that actually doesnt seem like much of a stretch at all right now.  Maybe it is time to do a little more digging around SLC and this V.  Nice find

Unknown: The first chapter Written in water Near men With wind rose "Written in Water" is an art book of architectural paintings done in watercolor.  I don't know if it was around in 1982. hxxp://shop.store.yahoo.com/artbook/390707887x.html A "wind rose" is one of those compasslike symbols on a map, with "N" for North at the top.  You sometimes see big decorative ones put into walkways and promenades.  Are there any in your SLC? I'm tired.  I'm going to bed.

Shawn, I saw that book, but it was published in the 90's. I am very familiar with a wind rose, I find it hard to believe it has that context here, but who knows. wilhouse

possibly also "windrows" Main Entry: 1wind·row Pronunciation: 'win(d)-"rO Function: noun 1 a : a row of hay raked up to dry before being baled or stored b : a similar row of cut vegetation (as grain) for drying 2 : a row heaped up by or as if by the wind 3 a : a long low ridge of road-making material scraped to the side of a road b : BANK, RIDGE, HEAP

here's a stretch, there's a Mrs. Chapone (chapter one) in Vanity Fair by William Makepeace Thackeray wilhouse

ok, we all know what a wind rose is: hxxp://paintcafe.sympatico.ca/en/propos ... rose_vent/ therefore, it is logical to assume that "Near men with wind rose" are navigators/sailors.  This also ties into "first chapter written in water".  The V sounds more and more like the city needs to be on a coast.

"Here lies one whose name was written in water "  what John Keats requested be written on his grave stone. There's also some ambient gothic music by the same name.  English poet fellow - wrote 'Ode on a Grecian Urn' in 1819.

nice find neVar.  Although, if Keats wanted that on his gravestone it would be the Last chptr instead of the first lol  ::)

It is not known where Keats came up with this phrase but is believed to be from Philaster Act 5, Scene III. "...Your memory shall be as foul behind you, As you are living; all your better deeds Shall be in water writ, but this in marble; No chronicle shall speak you, though..."

"The first chapter Written in water" Based upon what has been tossed around so far, it appears that the first step is to find something with John Keats' name on it.  After all, according to him, his NAME was "written in water."  I couldn't find anything in Salt Lake City other than a bed & breakfast place with a room called a "John Keats." I haven't checked the other cities.

Just looking for windroses: hxxp://www.mollycarpenter.com/delawarecompassrose.html hxxp://starbulletin.com/1999/07/12/mill ... tory8.html hxxp://seattlepi.nwsource.com/safeco/im ... ssrose.jpg hxxp://www.robinson-iron.com/pages/hechtgardens.html hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... locks.html + numerous other windroses mentioned but not shown in and around NY.

Salt Lake City uses a directional system to name most of its streets: north, south, east, west. The point of origin for this convention starts at Temple Square, where the Brigham Young Monument stands.  There was/is also a "Meridian Marker" which signifies this fact.  I wonder if there might be something near this point which resembles a wind or compass rose. The BY monument also portrays an Indian and a trapper, so there certainly are "men" there. "Stars pass by day" could definitely be the planetarium near the site, but what do people make of "Sails pass by night?" Also, there could be some type of fountain on the grounds with an inscription relating to something in the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

Unknown: "Stars pass by day" could definitely be the planetarium near the site, but what do people make of "Sails pass by night?" Well, the obvious would be the sails of sailboats or large masted ships.  Like 2 ships in the night?  Now, thinking outside of the box.....alternative definitions of sail: 3. A wing; a van. [Poetic] Like an eagle soaring To weather his broad sails. --Spenser. 4. The extended surface of the arm of a windmill. -wings in the night?  vans in the night....?.....ie delivery vans making their rounds as the city sleeps? -back to our favorite windmills .... but why in the night? & even more outside of the box.....SALE: The exchange of goods or services for an amount of money or its equivalent; the act of selling. An instance of selling. An opportunity for selling or being sold; demand. Availability for purchase: a store where pets are for sale. A selling of property to the highest bidder; an auction. A special disposal of goods at lowered prices: coats on sale this week. sales Activities involved in selling goods or services. Gross receipts. what that has to do with passing in the night is beyond me...Wall Street?

Just to put a spin on things: "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" One way to make a good concrete is to burn shells to get limestone, then add more shells. The first photograph ever taken was created using salt and silver nitrate. These are still the basic chemical ingredients that create photos. Also, salt and silver nitrate are 2 of the 4 main components in the bronzing process. Concrete movie theatre? Concrete bust? (photo, depiction, image of) Bronze bust? Bronze movie theatre? lol

just in case this helps- The points on a windrose like the points on a compass N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW. are labeled also but it depends on the lanquage you use. Italian, (most common usage- from north, clockwise) T, G, L, S, O, A, P, M for Tramontana, Greco, Levante, Syroco, Ostro, Africus, Ponente, Maestro Latin, (alternate names in parenthesis) Aquilo, Wutrurus, Agestes, Phoenix (euronotos), Austerus, Africus(Vulturnus), Faviounus, Circius or Greek Boreas, Caecias (Thracias), Eurus, (burus), Apeliotes, Notus, Libs(lips), Zephyrus, Corus (skirion, Aparctias) I think its interesting how many of the wind names are words we are familiar with but had no idea where the word came from

rereading the posts in this V and noticed many of the posts re: the wind rose (most of them by me  :-/ ) were that of the common compass rose. as Falcon explained above.....here is a site that may be a little more helpful than others I've posted lol hxxp://web.uflib.ufl.edu/cm/africana/windrose.htm ...and a good history on the windrose can be found here: hxxp://www.antiquemaps.co.uk/chapter10.html

ok now i have only been looking into this since i read about Egbert's find (congrats by the way) and it may sound ignorant but i believe that verse 9 goes with image 6. i think this mainly because it says "the first chapter written in water near men"  now in the image there is a water mass in the back ground and a man on a horse standing on top of a rock. then you have "behind the bending branches and a green picket fence at the base of a tall tree" now in the image there is flowers of some sort at the base of the rock and since it is by a mass the flowers would bend and the flowers could reprecent a green picket fence that bends in the wind and the rock at it seems to be could be sort of like a tall tree. that is all i got like i said it may sound ignorant but i have a strong feeling that i am right. does anyone else have a feeling about this.

Anything is possible until the casque is found Rabbit.  Keep the ideas flowing and welcome to the hunt.

Yes it seems that anything IS possible....Welcome and good idea! It seems that any direct coorelations between verse and picture have been red herrings but you never know.

there maybe more linking Image 6 to Verse 9 the man sitting on his horse ontop of the rock he is wearing French style armor maybe meaning somthing related to Christopher Collumbus. Now a common missconception is were he landed he first landed in Cuba which is close to Florida and the French occupide Florida for a long time. also in Verse 9 it says "Years pass, rain falls". Now Florida has the highest rainfall in the country this might be realted to that. Also "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" all can be found in Florida and the rock that the French man is standing on could be made of limestone. lastly the clouds in the background in Image 6 are storm clouds relating to the whole "years pass, rain fall" part which points even more twoard Florida. so basically the French man, the clouds, and the shell limestone silver salt all could point to Florida.

Unknown: i think this mainly because it says "the first chapter written in water near men"  now in the image there is a water mass in the back ground and a man on a horse standing on top of a rock. Now, if you continue on with the flow of the V,  it would state:  "near men with wind rose".  This too, could be referring to Columbus and his men as Rabbit talked of in later entry.  Men with wind rose would definitely be sailors of yesteryear. It may be a stretch but.... could the symbol on our conquistador's flag be that of a wind rose?...or that of just a simple "rose" flapping on the banner in the "wind"?

St Augustine Florida  Fountain of Youth Archeological Park P6 + V9 The first chapter This appears on the left hand page of the "book" sign on their front gate Written in water refers to The Fountain of Youth history Near men With wind rose A little tougher--There are two statues on the property one of the Timucuan Chief and one of Ponce de Leon.  There is a Goose/Duck pond that splits them (on the park's yellow site map, the duck pond looks like a wind rose).   In real life, it might be a stretch.  There is also a wind rose exhibit there near a Spanish ship model with miniature Spaniards on it.  There is tile near the Spring House that is a wind rose pattern and inside life size models of the indians and Ponce. Behind bending branches And a green picket fence The branches may refer to the archway of trees just outside the park entrance or may refer to  trees further back in the property near the Ponce statue heading back toward the monument (which is monolithic in shape).  There has been a fence near monument off and on through the years, as it often get blown out to see.  On the archeological site map the fence is depicted running east-west, most of the time the fence run arond that backside curve of the monument.  There is also a wooden fence near the entrance to the park that has been there longstanding and "has always been green" to some of the employee's recollections. At the base of a tall tree Here is the kicker--There are many tall palms, locating the right palm is (to me) the remaining mystery.  I think that the final clue to this is how the rock and the tree line up in the bottom of P6.  The rock is in the water (and reflected there) the tree is not reflected and indicates that it is some distance behind the rock.  There is an angled line between the rock and tree (you will need an original book picture to see this + a mag lense, but it is there).  I do not think that its a random mark, but tells where to dig if the alignment is right.  Unfornately, they dredge the coastline every 12 years and dump anything heavy along it (parts of walls, bricks, rocks etc) to help prevent erosion.  It is the only area of the park with significant water and I think the clues lead us out to that area beyond the monument.  22 years later--its gone.

You can still hear the honking There is a duck/goose pond at the park.  The reference to "you can still..."  seems to indicate some distance from the pond.  Again, I think this puts it out near the coastline. Shell, limestone, silver, salt There are exhibit markers.  One talks about how shell & limestone are fixed together to create "Coquina"  which is what much of the buildings and monuments in St Augustine are made from.  One exhibit is a Silver salt cellar, actually found near Ponce de Leon's marker near the Fountain of Youth.  It is displayed in the Spring house.   However the sign has recently been taken down,  I supplied a sign on line for this. Stars move by day Sails pass by night There is a planetarium at the park. They run a celestrial navigation program inside that simulates you being on a Spanish ship at night and how Ponce would have used the stars to navigate his way to the new world. Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops This line is a mystery to me.  He may be referring to all the small white lights that light up St Augustine at night, or the bridge lights that can be seen from the end of the park over the marshy coastland.  Or it may be a simile for moonlight (big white shiny rock) in teardrops (salty water=ocean), like that depicted in P6, the final part of the clue. Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls. At the coast line is a heavy protected marshland, there is nothing there but tall grass, much like that depicted in the flowers in P6.  Nothing is changing out in this area or has changed for years. Pictures attached [img]URL[/img]hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/stercox

I think that the verse leads you down to the east part of the park near the water's edge,  the flag acts as a map following the old retaining wall around the outside of the monument to a place where you would be able to see the rock in the water seen in P6.  When you align the rock and the tree, there is an angled line down from the tree that would indicate where to dig (you need an original book to see this).  So much of this area has changed over 20 years.  Every 12 years they dredge the marsh area shoving up debris and dumping in bricks, stone, and other junk to help prevent erosion.  The old retaining wall has fallen off into the sea due to erosion.  If I'm right about the rock/tree alignment then the rock is gone.  There a lot of tall palms in the park, at least a dozen down in that end.  But which one.  Many have been lost to hurricanes.  The real disappointment of the trip was that even if everything looked perfect--They will NOT let you dig there EVER.   If I'm right about this place--I fear that the casque is not recoverable.   All the employees there were very helpful and I am still corresponding with them to see if we can dig up any information or old pictures of this area from the early 1980s.  I have alot of pictures of the area that I am still going over.  There is a lot of vague imagery in the big black rock that doesn't fit anything.  What do you all think???

I think your in the right place. Perhaps if you can get some photos and prove it is not there any more  you can email them to Preiss and see if he will relent and at least tell you if you are correct. wilhouse

just a quick google search led me here: hxxp://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/histarch/menendez_02.htm the caption "Fountain of Youth excavations during Spring 2000" make my heart sink.  Good Luck.

I honestly don't believe Preiss would bury the casque in this kind of park.  There must be some where on the outskirts, in a more out of the way area, that fits... wilhouse

Stercox, excellent work!  You are in the right area.  I have just a couple of thoughts to share: The symbol on the flag (see your album, photo 4) is an overhead view of the monument (see photo 5, upper left-hand corner). I think the "green picket fence" is the one in the background of photo 6.  I'm guessing the fence near the park entrance is too high for a traditional "picket fence"? Hopefully the casque is still there and undisturbed.  Good luck!

The symbol on the flag is the (monolithic) monument or marker out by the water, YES.  Its one of the key pieces of information that sold this site for me.   The green fence that you see in my pictures was just recently put there. There have been fences out along the monument over the years, in different positions,  to help protect the monument against wind from the coast.  They have not always been painted green however.  They get blown out to sea, every few years and are replaced.  I am trying to work with my contacts at the park to see where fences were on the property in the early 80's.  There are a number of wooden fences at the park right now and they have all changed over the years.  The one fence that I refer to is the one that the employees say has been there behind the ticket gate and gift shop.  I don't have that pictured in the album.  They remember this always being green.

Stercox, your investigations remind me a lot of what I am going through at the CZ.  I rely a lot on people's memory too. What I have found though is that regardless of how insistent people are, you need a photo or something of that time frame to ensure that it is true. You might check with a local library or the PR department for old photos.  Explain to them that you are trying to compare what the present site looks like to what it looked like 20 years ago. I am sure they will be helpful. wilhouse

thanks for the advise--will check with some resources I have.

I think you've got it, Stercox!  Well, at least the right area.  BTW, did you notice that the Silver Salt sign mentions a "casque"?  lol. As for the exact location, would you have been permitted to dig in the place where you thought the casque would have been?  If not, then that is probably not where it is buried. I see the angle to which you refer between the tree and the rock.  However, I do not think that it tells you where to dig.  I think that the picture gets you to the general place (which you have found), but then the verse tells you exactly where to dig. Nice job!

I find the verse describes the actual park well.  But as directions to the dig site,  the verse seems to be really haphazard,  definitely not linear.  Many of the match ups to the verse are in different parts of the park.  To be honest, I was out there in gale force winds, without another sole in site, anyone could bury anything out there without too many people noticing.  I still am quite stumped by the rock--palm tree image in the lower right corner, it just seems to tacetly imply THIS IS THE TREE.  The reason I felt that the line helps let you know where to dig is that if "at the base of a tall tree" is the final clue to the dig site, that would give me 360 degrees of digging to chose from.  The line may help to define where, and why put it in the picture anyway??  I don't think it's a random mark.   Could it be possible that this particular puzzle is different from the two that have been found.  There is little in the picture as far as landmarks to get you to fountain of youth park, and the verse lines are the thing that really sealed the deal as far as the right place.  Once there I really thought that the imagery in the rock and within the picture itself would be obvious.  Not so.  I feel like there is still 15 acres and 3 feet of dirt between me and the casque.  Oh to be that close....

Have a nice Memorial Day weekend everyone. I for one should come back feeling rejuvenated . Pine

I spent almost all day thinking about / studying Verse 9 and Image 6, with zilch to show for it. But I agree that stercox has the general location nailed in the Fountain of Youth Park. If I am ever down that way, you can bet I will stop in and spend a couple of hours wandering the park. But I question the assumption that the rock is a literal representation. I didn't think that area of the coast was known for large outcroppings of rock, but rather for swampy, flat marshland. Am I mistaken?

Flat and Marshy, No rocks at all.  I think that rock is "impressionistic" at best, it offers up a few clues (like the 82 longitude) but I think that's about it.  It really reminds me of the corroded spanish cannons in the park.  The dig site and all the confirmers of the site are in the verse.  I'm still working on this one with contacts down in the park, but it is frustrating.  From my interpretation of the verse, I am convinced that the last marker, the tree, no longer exists because of hurricanes.  I know that this is the right place--and the casque isn't going anywhere.  Lately, there have been archeologists in the park this summer.  But the HOT SPOT (where I think the treasure may be) is not near where they usually do their field work.  Oddly enough, you can't even excavate for building a new house in St. Augustine without an archeologist clearing your site first. They're that serious about it.

Have you made the local archaeologists aware of the situation? I can imagine they would jump at the chance to help you locate the casque if (1) you explain the situation to them and (2) narrow down the likely burial spot to a reasonably searchable area. Ground-penetrating radar is probably standard equipment in such investigations. Plan B: show up at midnight with wilhouse's back-hoe, a mag-lite, and a few buddies. I just chuckled at a thought. Wouldn't it be hilarious if the artifact display case at the park contains "fragments of a mysterious 16th-century concrete urn, retaining some of its original paint, containing a key fashioned in the Spanish style, discovered at a depth of approximately two feet..."

Hey, being displaced because of the hurricanes, trying to keep up with the links and do things with the family...  I just read this link and am getting ready to take my boys to the "Falls of the Ohio".  I did some research on the falls and I hope this helps with this link.  I just read that Limestone is a sedimentary rock that fossils are often found in and that salt is often found there.  I also read and liked the idea about the site being near a planetarium...Anyway just thought that I would put the thought out there that he may be talking about fossils.  Just a thought about the fossils, though .

Tried to post this poem that I found earlier, so if it posts twice, sorry.  Still doing web searching and found the following poem. Here is the land where life is written in water The West is where the water was and is Father and son of old mother and daughter Following rivers up immensities of range and desert thirsting the sundown ever Crossing a hill to climb a hill still drier Naming tonight a city by some river a different name from last night's camping fire Look to the green within the mountain cup look to the prairie parched for water lack Look to the sun that pulls the oceans up look to the cloud that gives the oceans back Look to your heart and may your wisdom grow to power of lightning and to peace of snow —Thomas Hornsby Ferril, 1940 Thomas Hornsby Ferril was poet Laurraeate for Colorado til his death.  There is tons more information on him.  Hope the poem helps someone.

I the spirit of giving this Thanksgiving I submit my theory for review. Pic 6 and Verse 9 go together.  The FL imagery in the pic seems too obvious to ignore. Verse Nine: The first chapter Written in water (first explorers to N. America) Near men With wind rose (sailors/explorers/sea) Stars move by day Sails pass by night Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops (These suggest a lighthouse to me.  Showing Boats how to navigate at night with "treardrops" of light) If Pic 6 goes with this verse I think Ponce de leon Inlet lighthouse hxxp://www.ponceinlet.org/index.html might be a good place to start. At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking (This is the tallest lighthouse in the nation, and it looks like ships still dock nearby (honking sound)) Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls (tall grass = cattails?) Looking at the pictures of the light house the place is surrounded by a picket fence built to keep wild pigs out - but it is white in the pictures.  Was it green years back?  Possibly, looking at the historical pictures the surrounding structures on the property have green trim.  And one of the articles says there is still a green cabinet in the lighthouse from a previous owner. I live in FL, but the lighthouse in 400 miles away.  If you guys are convinced or have any potential pointers, I might make the trip up that way. what do ya think? jay

jayheedan wrote:: At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking (This is the tallest lighthouse in the nation, and it looks like ships still dock nearby (honking sound)) According to the website In 1982, a new tower balcony replaced the crumbling one, and the light in the lantern was restored to active service...The Ponce Inlet Lighthouse is now a private aid to navigation.

i know i havent been on in a while but i still havent stoped searching now i did fine were the flower in image 6 is located and one of it common areas of growth is in the panhaddle of florida so im still sticking with the florida idea

Sabatia bartramii thats the name of the flower and it grows in watery areas

Hi, new to this forum and first post for me.  I believe that the Ponce De Leon (Mosquito) lighthouse is the right location....but trying to figure out where it is in relation to that.  Any one in FL want to work together on this?  Drop me an email

Howdy bigtd35, and welcome to the Q4T board. Sorta in response to your question, but more broadly, everyone on this forum is working together -- not just on this one, but on all of them.  There are plenty of disagreements, but the goal is to support the discovery of the casques. So you know, this is not like ATT.  We don't play the "I have a hunch but I'll only share it privately...." game.  Everyone here's pretty much wide-open with the ideas. Have a good time. Pine

Pine Tree- You should emphasize, in all good fun, that the goals is in fact to disagree, so that all theories are thoroughly criticed. After the scrutiny, the answers will emerge. Too bad its taking over twenty years though. We must be good at disagreeing

Trohn wrote:: We must be good at disagreeing No we're not!  lol

I disagree!

bigtd35 - While all ideas are scrutinized and argued against (sometimes vehemently... and mostly by me), it's all in a "devil's advocate" spirit to separate wheat from chaff. By the same token, all ideas are entertained, because until someone has a casque in their greedy claws, all ideas are equally correct. The same principle underlies the practice of science, by the way. Popper and Lakatos would thoroughly approve of the way we conduct ourselves here.

AND

ok then  lol  you guys are a hoot.

Unknown: Shell, limestone, silver, salt Stars move by day Sails pass by night Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops Returning to the business of Verse 9... Perhaps it would be far too obvious to use the word salt in the verse for Salt Lake City, but the limestone still works for Utah.  "Stars move by day" could be a planetarium in any city, but the old Hansen Planetarium in SLC is constructed of limestone of a type containing tiny shells. "Sails pass by night", well, they have a marina on the Great Salt Lake, and sailboats are a common enough there. Here is a picture of the marina building: hxxp://home.earthlink.net/~travel179/images/UT022.JPG Can you imagine the moonlight reflecting off those teardrop -shaped domes? I am convinced that Image 11 has the exact longitude/latitude for SLC, and it is just a matter of matching a verse to it.  I will be working on this one for now. (returned to add this) -- that photo is elsewhere labeled as the Saltair (one word) Pavillion or Palace, not the marina itself, but a building within view just a few miles up the coast.  There is an amusing description of the history of the site here -- Saltair III opened in 1982.

I want to offer up thw following thought- "Near Men"  is a defintion of Monkeys.

Near Men With windrose.......... ????  OR ??? hmmm...

Not that I don't find humor, Fox, I do but wind rose is not a compass, it is a map of historical wind frequencies... like the kind used at The National Hurricane Center convientietly located in the middle of Miami.

Unknown: but wind rose is not a compass, it is a map of historical wind frequencies... That is true, but wind roses are also an early form of compass rose found on maps, used as navigational aids. They often bear N, S, E, W designations. Here are some examples unearthed by Google:

Interesting. Who knew.

Hi Guys, Been awhile since I've posted I know, but I have been working on the V9 P6 relationship for like a year or two now off and on around school.  I actually just came across this particular thread and was able to see the pictures of St. Augustine and The Fountain of Youth State Park.  We too had it pinned down to St. Augustine but a different park. Looking over the reasons for the Fountain park I give them credit, and in fact our park is only a bout a block or two down the road, a few of the lines I couldnt acount for Stercox found good relations for (particularly the stars moving by day line). I do kind of wish we could just squish them together. So with all that said I will now outline our ideas and experiences.  Sadly I dont have a way to post pictures, is there someone I could send them to? In one of Stercox's photos you can see a giant cross in the background.  That cross comemorates the Nombre de Dios park, a park that celebrates the location that Ponce de Leon created the first chapter of the Catholic Church in America.  There are artworks depicting them creating the first chapter of the church while still standing in the water after first disembarking.  So this is what we attributed to "The first chapter written in water". For the "near men with wind rose"..more or less connected to the Nombre de Dios park is the park or Our Lady De la Leche. It houses the first shrine to Mary on American soil, and surrounding the shrine is a cemtary. within the cemetary there is an old old fountain in the shape of a windrose. a bit of a stretch granted but it's all we could come up with. Ok, "behind bending branches and a green picket fence at the base of a tall tree you can still hear the honking".... There is a grove of trees for bending branches, the fence is missing but we have been looking for old pictures (the St. Augustine historical society wasnt much help at all, in fact they sort of blew us off), the tall tree we are almost certain is that huge cross. and as for the you can still hear the honking, the road is just out of sight but is still audible. Shell limestone silver salt.  Aside from the coquina (a mixture of shells and sand and limestone) that is used all over St. Augustine they were also known for their silversmiths. The silver could also be the sunlight glinting on the water? from a poets perspective anyway. Stars move by day sails pass by night. I like the planetarium for this. we couldnt come up with a very viable explanation at our site. Even in darkness like moonlight in teardrops. we tend to stick this with "sails pass by night, even in darkness like moonlight in teardrops" and indeed at night the white sails did look something to that effect passing across the dark water of the bay. "Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls." We tend to agree, nothing much happens in the area of the bay outside these two parks besides years passing and rain falling. One thing i do have to add though, the white rock in the picture looks startling similar to an aerial view of a small island that is directly across a small channel from both these parks. It could be leading us to that island itself instead of to either of these parks. Our original notion was that this all lead to the dig site near the coast next to the huge cross, but we have begun think that perhaps it is leading us past it. like maybe the green picket fence is the small channel.  (maybe theres a large white rock on the island?) Let me know what ya think.  I'm sure I have left out some details and if any of note come to me I will post them.  As a final note I will say we have had a blast working on this, taking weekend excursions to St. Augustine, walking around the town till like 4 am b/c we had no where to stay etc.  Wouldnt give any of it up for the world, the casque would just be icing.  (P.S. if you arnt 21 you can't stay in St. Augustine, not even at a campsite, without having parents present. RE-DIC-U-LOUS, I was 19 at the time and about had a coniption when they told me I needed my parents there) -Guyra

Guy-- I loved visiting St. Augustine too, great little town.  I like your thoughts and have visited that area near the cross also--its such an awesome landmark.  Been looking at this one for almost three years now, have visited a couple times and still working the angles.  I think at least we are both in the right area. I do not discount the FOY park, although many do--because you can't really dig there--yet--but I am still partial to that park.  My original theory was similar to yours, in that, I felt that the clues were dragging me out toward the coastline.  I have since changed my mind--that coastline is an erosive mess.  I have seen the island that you talk about--anything is possible at this point--I had never thought about traveling across the water--I guess it never felt right to me.  Have you tried to go out there??  I am also haunted by the rock--tree combination, my personal theory is that this is a fine tuning clue, I believe that the tree pictured is actually "the tall tree" and is the final landmark--that the orientation of the rock--tree, when found, will give you the "Eureka! That's It!!" that we are looking for.  But I am pretty sure that the tree no longer exists due to hurricane damage.  And there are very few rocks in that area.  I think that the rock looks like coquina.    Your interpretaton of the clues are much more symbolic and poetic than mine--I have taken them more literally.  But, until a casque is found--all theories are more than possible.  I am however convinced that St. Augustine is our place for P6/V9 and not on the west Floridian coast.  We just need to keep at it--and luckily being 44 years old--I can visit again without having to bring my parents.

Guyra, ""There are artworks depicting them creating the first chapter of the church while still standing in the water after first disembarking.  So this is what we attributed to "The first chapter written in water"." That is brilliant! Stercox, "I am also haunted by the rock--tree combination, my personal theory is that this is a fine tuning clue, I believe that the tree pictured is actually "the tall tree" and is the final landmark--that the orientation of the rock--tree, when found, will give you the "Eureka! That's It!!" that we are looking for." I have to agree with you here.  One thing that always bothered me about that combination makes a lot of sense now...  why isnt the tree reflected in the water when the rock is?  It is because they arent together..literally.  It may be that you have to line the two up while standing near the dig site.  You know...walk around the tree {which is on land} until you see the rock/island behind it.  This could be the way to tell you which side of the tree to dig at. Keep up the great work you two... looks like another casque may be ready for some Florida sunshine after 20+ years underground.

Unknown: I have to agree with you here.  One thing that always bothered me about that combination makes a lot of sense now...  why isnt the tree reflected in the water when the rock is?  It is because they arent together..literally.  It may be that you have to line the two up while standing near the dig site.  You know...walk around the tree {which is on land} until you see the rock/island behind it.  This could be the way to tell you which side of the tree to dig at. Fox-- I agree.  Except my thoughts about this run in reverse... There are a lot of curious findings in that drawing--as you noted, no tree reflection.  Also, if you look closely there is a small shadowed line running from the mid trunk or the tree  leftward down toward the ground, disappearing behind the rock.  I'll throw it out there what I really think this all means:  I think that this part of the picture is nestled into the larger picture for composition sake but the major elements are to be divorced from the rest of the picture and are important to finding "X marks the spot".  The elements are:  the orientation of the rock in the water, the tree with line.  There are very few rocks in that area--I think that this rock is likely coquina and man made (sharp edge, flat top).  The water although drawn to look like its on the coastline is not ocean.  The water is calm and offers clear reflection with algae even.    I think that the rock was some kind of base centerpiece in a larger fountain, made out of coquina and showing erosion.  Standing or kneeling beside this fountain would give you the perspective of rock in calm water, even algae growth. The size of the reflection itself, creates the look that the rock is very large, because the assumption is the body of water that it is in is very large (the reflection nearly travels to the "shoreline" in the P6).  I propose that the rock is not that large, because the body of water is not that large, that is, its only fountain size.    Now put a tall tree some distance behind that fountain. Its reflection in that same water would not be there.  The rock would appear much larger and closer, the tree smaller and at a distance.  Why do this?  Because this alignment pinpoints the tree.  The shadowed line in that view directs you to the left side of that tree to its base.    Dig here.  BTW--I think the line is BP's shovel handle leaning against the tree.  Can I prove this--NO--its just one of my pet theories I have.  In my recon to St Augustine, at least in my hot spots for possible dig sites--the trees are gone anyway due to hurricanes.  So for what its worth ($0.02).

Wonder why this one hasn't been nailed down to a few square by now... hxxp://www.getaway4florida.com/moreinfo ... &ClassID=3 hxxp://www.getaway4florida.com/do/attra ... 5&pageno=2 Let's take another look....

hmmm. 11 Magnolia Ave.  Those are not magnolias in P6 are they?

you gotta love the first sentence in Trohn's 1st link above. "The Nation's first chapter in history begins at Ponce de Leon's Fountain of Youth. "  Sounds like a first chapter written in water to me....  If this park isnt the site...it sure has to be part of the trail leading to our casque.  The casque is nearby folks...lets get it. If I am not mistaken..the flower(s) in P6 are asters, not Magnolias.

Now if we can find a plaque with that "first chapter" idea . . .

you guys already have found a plaque with the words "First Chapter" on it, its on the entrance to tha tplace

yup...gotta agree w/ reg here johann...perhaps you missed it...but, where are those photos of the park entrance w/ those words on it?  I can not seem to find them anymore.

fox wrote:: yup...gotta agree w/ reg here johann...perhaps you missed it...but, where are those photos of the park entrance w/ those words on it?  I can not seem to find them anymore. The entrance to the park has the plaque describing the "first chapter" but it is probably displayed elsewhere in the park. The exit has flags/banners of a simialr design and color as that of in Image six.  It is likely they also are elsewhere in the park. I have not got a good solid photo of them to post for comparison. The "old Senator" feet from the FOY park doees not have a green picket fence around it. From the park's gate to the actual park, you have two blocks of tree lined streets (Magnolias most likely) that have many many bending branches. In the park itsel, besides the 'well', you have a globe (for displaying of the explorers and the lands around the world) and you have "Navigators' Planetarium" where the stars are displayed from the time of the landing at St Augstine.  (stars move by day) The park is on the Intercoastal.  I wonder what part of the park is east, looking overe the water?

Oops.  My bad.  Sorry, y'all.

no prob Johann...even the best of us slip up occasionally

P6 + V9.  Please see my posts from January 22, 2005 for both the P6 and V9.  One of the links will take you to my photos of the park and some very enlightening information if you have not seen them before. There is more than just a gate sign (The First Chapter)  to validate this as a hot spot.  I am convinced that the FOY Archeological park is our site, always have been.  I have been working on this match up for nearly 2 1/2 - 3 years.  I have visited the site twice, respectfully broached the topic and was not permitted to dig and actually been told if anyone tries to dig they'll be arrested.  OUCH!  Through a lot of interviews with park staff and historical research,  I have narrowed down the dig site to a small area.  My original thought about the clues took you out by the water--I no longer believe that, the theory has been revised.  However, the bulk of the theory is presented in my 2005 posts.    The problem has always been gaining permission to test out the theory I've developed over the years because of the nature of the park--It is on family-owned,  private property and historically (archeologically) significant.  Through patience and diplomacy over the last couple years along with a convincing argument (they must not have found me to be a complete lunatic), I have found out recently that I will have my best chance to see if the theory is right later this month.  The relationship with those in authority over this park is very tenuous (they may balk if too much attention is drawn to this --they do not want it to be widely known that "some treasure" could be buried at their park in order to prevent mayhem and random digging--and that is very understandable)-- but they are excited about the possibility of a casque being there and are willing to help play in the dirt.  I will be down there with my treasure hunting buddy mid to late March.  I think if you look over my earlier posts from 2005 you will get a good feeling about this park, like I did.  I usually hate all the cloak-n-dagger stuff, but I do not feel that I am in a position to blab about this too much without putting this opportunity at risk.  However, in the spirit of this board,  I felt I should tell everyone about these recent developments.  This may be another Milwaukee--I hope it is not--the burden of proof is to find it--But whatever the outcome, I will post what I have after the trip.  Above all,  I want to keep the relationship with this park on good standing for the future.  Finally, in my search I found that in 1982 it would have been very easy to access the park and bury the casque.

You're the man Stercox!!!  You're doing the right thing.  Make us proud laddy!!! ps: Hey, can you drink from the fountain and make yourself young again?  Let me know if it works.

Thanks Boogie-- I already drank from the fountain and it made me a girl....

Stercox, I always thought you were a man too (I guess it was the avatar)!  Well, loads of luck! Quite coincidentally, my wife made plans for a family vacation in St. Augustine in several weeks, so I was going to check out the area myself.  I was also going to try and convince Siskel and his family to join us.  I guess we will either be visiting the site where Stercox found a casque, or will have a good time digging with our kids. I am very excited for you!  If for some reason you do not find it, it would be appreciated if you could share your latest thought processes afterwards.

Unknown: it would be appreciated if you could share your latest thought processes afterwards. Sir Eg, It's really your fault that I got started into this mess--reading the Plain Dealer one day and saw a lawyer in a pink shirt looking mighty happy--- BTW--Thanks. Plan on it.  Sounds like I need to change my avatar though--I just picked one that was handy at the time I registered--it had a fat face with glasses (like me) and was a type of digging animal--go figure.

Thanks for the update Stercox. I know you have been working this angle for a while. Years pass, rains fall, casques hide.

Stercox, just reread your documentation from 2005 and reviewed your photos. On the 'yellow map' there is only one depiction of a fence and that is between the gift shop and the ticket booth. just to the left of the spring. and you confirmed that that has always been green. good luck and I will see if I can spot anything for you

stercox wrote:: Thanks Boogie-- I already drank from the fountain and it made me a girl.... yuck... Keep me away from that water!!!! LOL  Hey, sorry bout that.  You go girl!!!

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but I haven't heard any really great interpretations of the last line.  Of course, I don't know what wonders Stercox has worked up, so there may be a good solution yet. Reading it for the first time in a while, the word 'rain' jumped out at me. Has it been considered that this could be a homophone for reign or rein? Reign falls = Some political power/ruler loses influence/dies/etc? Rein falls = Some sort of throwback to the horse in image 6? Just a thought.  Good luck Stercox.

Unknown: Years pass, rains fall, casques hide. Just got back from St. Augustine dig.  Sad to report that the casque was not found.  Here's the story.  I started looking at P6 back in the fall of 2004 and always felt that it was a Spanish conquistador, likely Ponce de Leon.  I researched St. Augustine back then as it fit the immigration theme that was being developed and the Spanish theme for the hunt.  There were several additional clues (really dropped hints) in the book's preface on pg 22 and pg 30 as well.  During my research,  I ran across some images of two signs within the park on some travel website.  The signs mentioned shell, limestone, silver salt , even in that order.  I had visited the Fountain of Youth park as a kid and remembered the Planetarium there.  The pieces started coming together.  Further research kept confirming the FOY park and I planned a trip in January 2005.  Unfortunately, one could never dig there because the park is private property and an archeological site.  At first, I thought that the clues pulled you out to the coastline and on that trip we found much more to confirm the park as the hiding place, but the clues blew through our coastline theory.  I made another trip to St. Augustine in summer of 2006.  This time we tried to firm up our thoughts and lock in on it.  Still no digging was allowed.   During these visits I became friends with one of the staff members, Jenny.  She has been a vital person in the efforts to find this casque.   And my hat is off to her.  We have bounced ideas back and forth and her interest and excitement about this hunt has been contagious.  Jenny has been the catalyst in brokering some dig time with the owners of the park.  We planned another trip this March to test out our theory: Start with P6: There is not much to get you to the FOY park.  But not much is needed, since it is hinted at in the book and is a famous place.  There is Ponce de Leon.  The longitude 82 in the big rock.  Although, St. Augustine's longitude is 81+, using 81 would have put you in the Atlantic Ocean, so I believe that BP used 82, close enough.  I do not see a clear latitude in the picture.  The flowers form a rough sketch of a spanish galleon.  A solid confirmer is the schematic symbol on the flag and even the shape of the flag itself.  The symbol is found on an archeological site map found at the park.  It symbolizes an obelisk monument out by the coastline. Much of the big rock imagery seems to be subjective.  I've been looking at this for years (and so have you).  Even those who see the park everyday have ideas about the imagery, some of it is really good, but not everyone will agree in what they see in that big rock.  I believe there are many loose confirmers.  I have not seen anything concrete that will lead one to a specific dig site.  And maybe its not meant to.  I will say, that we have found no utility for the rock--tree combination in the lower right of P6.  And it may be important??! Now V9: The first chapter This is a literal clue and a confirmer.  These exact words are used on an entry gate sign at the FOY park Written in water Allusion to the history and lore of the fountain (water) of youth.  The two lines are seen in juxtaposition at the FOY gate at the entry to the parking lot.  No changes since BP's time.   These lines can be interpreted to say "The first chapter of our nation's history was written at the Fountain of Youth". Near men With wind rose The verse is a little disordered.  The next six lines, starting with Near men localize the dig site.  You will not see these clues until you work your way back to the Planetarium.  There within the vestibule of the Planetarium you will find a display of a wind rose , another literal confirmer, meaning the words wind rose are used.  Across from the wind rose is a replica Spanish ship with men on the deck. Near men with wind rose can be interpreted to mean "Near the planetarium vestibule". Behind bending branches On Magnolia avenue running in front of the park is a well known and impressive tunnel of branches that line that street.  And behind those bending branches is the FOY park. And a green picket fence The park has several picket fences and they are all green, some recently repainted.  No changes since BP's time.  One of the fences runs perpendicular to the outside wall along Magnolia avenue.  The wall runs N-S and the fence runs E-W.  This begins to create a boundry.  And inside that boundry is the Planetarium. At the base of a tall tree There are hundreds of trees in the park.  But when you can identify the boundries of the search you start to eliminate many of them.  There are Live Oaks, palms, pines, elms etc.  I always thought we would be looking for a palm tree given P6.  But I don't see the clues leading us there (I could be wrong--since I did not find it).   It would have had to have been a mature tree  (to be tall) and near the vestibule of the Planetarium.  How does one eliminate further trees in this area? You can still hear the honking In the early 80's, and during BP's time, the park had a goose pen behind and slightly west of the planetarium.  Nearly a dozen  geese there (only 3 out on the actual goose pond at the time).  In a single line of verse, you can eliminate many trees now that are within the sight line of the goose pen.  This arrangement eliminates all but one tree.  The tree is within 6 ft of the Planetarium vestibule wall (on the other side of the wall hangs the wind rose).  The tree is out of sight line of the goose pen, but you could easily still hear them honking.  This tree died several years ago and on one of our trips we could find where the park had ground the stump. The area around the Planetarium has not changed since BP's time.   You will find it looking the same today as it did then, except for the loss of two live oaks and the goose pen which is now gone.  One oak was taken down in a hurricane (but was within the sight line of the old goose pen), the other oak is our proposed tall tree. When we found out it was an oak and not a palm tree, our hearts sunk.  We knew there would be a heavy root system making digging in this area very difficult.  And the fact that it was not a palm kept nagging at us--and still does.  But we followed the clues.  The next several clues function as confirmers and lead you from the park entrance back to the planetarium. Shell, limestone On a sign found very near the entry.  The words shell and limestone are found literally in this order on a sign describing the coquina structures there. Silver, salt On a sign found within the Spring house.  The words silver salt are found literally in this order on a sign describing a casque found at the FOY left there by the Spanish. Stars move by day Sails pass by night The planetarium runs regular shows all during the day,  showing you how sailors used the night sky to navigate.  There is a ship mast and sails within the planetarium that gives you the perspective of being on the deck of a ship looking up into the night sky.  More on this later. The last stanza... Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls. This last part of V9 is very cryptic, poetic and subjective.  I always felt that it referred to the planetarium--the look of the small lights used to simulate stars in the darkness of the planetarium, just like the brightness of moonlight but the size of a drop.  Tall grass may be a reference to the wetland grasses at the coarstline or the bamboo in the area--who knows.  Years pass--The discovery globe program's script talks about "eons and eons passing..."  the Planetarium script talks about "Columbus coming to the new world in 1492 ....then Ponce de Leon in 1513 ".  Rain falls--During the Planetarium program a thunderstorm is simulated right after the discussion of the years. Good guess--but subjective.  I have come to find out that these last few lines are very, very important and that they hold a solid literal confirmer that will marry this verse (V9) to P6, for even the toughest skeptics among us.  It is unlikely to be a coincidence and may impact how we look at other verses in this hunt.  The discovery of this clue is not mine, but my friend Jenny's.  About 3 days before we left for the dig, Jenny emails me this.... S ails pass by night E ven in darkness L ike moonlight in teardrops O ver the tall grass Y ears pass, rain falls SELOY ...is the name of the old indian village that the FOY park sits on.  There is a sign at the park referencing this.  A major acrostic clue!!  And it was right in front of us all the time!!  Just goes to show you, new clues can be found even when you've studied it for years. THE DIG We arrived in St. Augustine late Friday night and ate dinner with the owner and Jenny and her husband Jay.  The owner relayed to us how easy it would have been to bury a casque here in the early 80's.  There was no security and there was only one lamp lit for the entire 15 acre park.   We discussed the plan of attack.  The owner set up very specific rules for us.  He does not want publicity or it to become public knowledge, unless it's found and he would like to see it found.  He does not want other people digging randomly in the park--it is after all a protected archeological site.  He does not want this discussed with any employees because they may go around digging on their own.  The archeologists were not present working in the park, otherwise we could not have dug that weekend.  We had to wait for the park to close before digging which left us about 3 hours hours before dark.  We had to put the site back the way we found it and we had to get this accomplished before security arrived for the night.  It was all very clandestine.  And so, we dug.   Looking at the clues the six instructional lines starting with Near men create  north (fence), east (planetarium vestibule), south (goose pen), and west (bending branches, Magnolia ave) boundaries.  Using the sight line from the goose pen and the fact the tall tree needs to be near the vestibule, we dug at the base of a ground up stump from a dead oak tree.  I might say that roots are the bane of my existence!  (Milwaukee De ja vu).   Three of us dug on two different nights.  We dug until our hands were bloody stumps.  Thank God for Advil!!  We gave it our best shot but it was not recovered.  And I cannot say how discouraging it is to say those words out loud.   The root system is complex and creates an extensive network at varying levels at the base of that tree.  They begin about 1 1/2 feet down.  It is a hard wood and difficult to chop and clear.  Plus we had time (and energy) constraints.   Conclusion:  It is there under the roots or it is close by but requires a slight change in the interpretation of the verse.  Certainly, every tree near the vestibule could be dug up, but it would need to be done in stages and the others are live trees (roots again).  We plan to go back soon.   We've worked hard to diplomatically maintain a positive respectful relationship with the owner. And I'm going to say this as delicately as I can and without intention to offend---The owner will likely only deal with me in brokering further digs as we were the first to ever broach this with him. I do not want to sound like I am trying to grab this one exclusively.  It is actually his wishes.  But this is a team effort and I recognize that.  He now feels comfortable with this that I am able to go public and post all of what we have found there in the hopes that the Q4T Brain Trust will collaborate, as we always have,  in finding it.  I don't think that he is opposed to having future small teams with us to come to the park to dig if a dig site sounded solid.  He actually is quite excited about the casque being there (and has looked for it himself) and thinks that it would make a great story and bring postivie publicity to the park.  Above all, this relationship must be maintained in good standing--or the opportunity to find this casque could be lost forever. SUMMARY If you believe that the FOY park is the casque site, then there are some interesting insights found with this particular puzzle that may apply to other P/V match ups. * Many of the clues are found inside buildings and not exclusively outside--and these are literal confirmers, not just allusions to what the buildings hold.  Ex.  "Seek the sounds of rumble brush and music hush" in V12 alluding to the ART building near the dig site in Chicago as opposed to "Silver, salt" or "wind rose" which are literal words used on signs within the building exhibits.  If you do not go into the buildings you may not find these. * The acrostic clue used here--SELOY.  There may be other word puzzles within these verses we have not considered before (other acrostics, anagrams, etc).  This opens up a whole new realm of potential discovery. * You need to really go to the sites to see them up close and personal.  You can only get so much on-line. If you are close to one of the prospective sites, then GO-- and  photo-document it as thoroughly as possible. * Digging for these is tough work!  Ask Egbert and Siskel, Ask Wilhouse, Ask Forest Blight or Pine Tree.  Ask others that have dug.  Plan carefully and don't kid yourself--permission will likely be needed for every dig and you should try to get that permission or you could blow it for future attempts.  And for God's sake--get a lot of help!  OUCH! IMAGES P6 V9 St. Augustine :  I have posted the confirmers and views of our dig in this Webshot album.  It starts with  P6 and then follows the order of V9. All photos are tagged with captions. See for yourself. FOY Tour :  I have posted all the photos I have of inside the park from three visits for you to look at.  The Webshots Rearranging function is not working right now for some reason--so they are only loosely arranged into areas of the park.  I will continue to try to organize them when this function is working again.  I've tagged all of these with identifiers too, but orientation may be difficult until they can be reorganized.  Sorry. hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/stercox And in Trohn's famous words.... Enjoy!  Let the discussion begin!

Something to consider...that the walls of the planetarium are the same color as the rock in the image and the walls have designs in them.  Perhaps the shape of the rock in the image is a design on the wall of the planetarium and further narrows down the search location to being in front of it.  The picture in the webshots album "P6 V9 St. Augustine" that is titled "Stars move by day" has one such design about 4/5 of the way up that could be interpruted to be the rock.  Perhaps you find the design and orient yourself so that you see a tree (palm?) in the distance that lines up as in the image. Just some thoughts.  Wish I could help with the dig when you go again, but it looks like its about a 9 hour drive for me.

a most impressive use of this verse!  I'll have to let go of my other pet theories for it. The Avenue of the Palms could be the only palm tree reference, not an actual tree. Could the fountain be the rain that falls?

Stercox... Since the casque was not found at the Planetarium, it has occurred to me that maybe some of the other numbers in the image were germane...like the 8 in the rock. What about number 8 on the map--the Indian Burial? The rock head does look much like a Seminole Indian profile. Also, there is a small device on the conquistador's flag--it's a small square inside a large circle. Is there anything like this anywhere in the park? Maybe an obelisk, inside a garden spot? Or a post inside some circular layout? Just some thoughts. I, too, think this is an impressive decoding. Especially potent is the acrostic SELOY.  That would confirm for me that you are in the correct location. Also---what about looking for the jewel where the jewel actually IS in the image? i.e., on the INDIAN'S HEAD. Does this mean anything to you? I'm not able to see anything more with the pictures and image. Ck

Stercox... Great job... great finds...  keep at it. One thing I noticed, the 'small marker' (photo 117 of the FOY tour) looks exactly (and the same angle) of the 'island rock' with palm tree. (even the shadows match up) So, if this is true, this identification should be in sight of the burial location (not necessarily at it). After your first tour and photos, I have always thought the 'green picket fence' would refer to one inside the grounds as opposed to just the one lining the property.  (i could be wrong - but the 'behind bending branches' would take you into the park) I like to think that verses would try and move you and the clues would not be repretitous. Just my two-cents.

Let me add my applause to the general accolade for stercox. Great job!! SELOY nails it for sure. I think Trohn may have a point. While the marker isn't an exact match, I wonder if one could set a camera on the ground (at approximately the point I marked in red), aimed at the 11:00 position, and get a shot that looks very similar to the island-rock in P6. Is that a palm tree?

Having gone through more of your photos, I see there IS an obelisk and it IS a small square base within a large open circle, like the banner device. Maybe you could follow the banner the conquistador is holding as if it were a path, and the jewel will be at the end of it....or perhaps where the bottom of the flagpole rests--use it as a pointer and the jewel will be roughly where it is in relation to that? ck

Wow. Ma'am !  Brilliant, Stercox.  Not that you need any more confirmers, but look at this..... edit; You can still hear the honking Think this is the key and puts your dig site right on the money. Not to be funny, but, maybe BP killed that tree by chopping some roots. Done that myself in my own yard, accidentally.  Yet, under a tree with roots still bothers me.  Can't really see BP digging there because of that.  I saw in one of your pics a telephone pole.  Might there be one nearby? It would have been a tree at some point.  Just scratching my head on this one..... edit:Here is the pole I saw.  Hoping there is one near your tree stump. hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/21 ... 0493Qbjvfd

stercox - I wonder if the place to dig should be the east side of the planetarium entrance rather than the west side. The verse says Near men with wind rose , not Near wind rose with men . Geese are loud critters; you might still hear them even if you were on the opposite side of the building from them. There's a tree over there, too, and it's still standing. Regardless of which side is correct, the verse is not very specific about the exact spot to start digging, which obliged you to dig up a ton of square footage. One explanation for the verse's lack of specificity is that BP expected the puzzles to all be solved in short order. Once a person found the approximate area, where BP had dug would still be obvious. Another explanation is that we are missing some vital clue that would tell us more precisely where X is. A liberal interpretation of the verse is that the casque is buried somewhere in the park, under a tree and within earshot of the geese (not necessarily out of sight of them, though). Behind bending branches / And a green picket fence could simply mean anywhere behind the fence and trees, i.e. most of the park. Something else in the verse or pic would then nail the spot. Let's assume Trohn is right for a moment (but only for a moment; I don't want him to get the wrong idea) and the small marker is our rock. Then that palm tree behind it would be the tree at whose base we'd need to dig - a palm tree to provide a tangible link between pic and verse. Other interpretations are possible, of course, I'm just trying to think outside the box.

No.  The palm tree by the marker should not be the place to dig  (it is not a large enough tree to stand out among other trees)  It should be used as a line of sight from the burial spot. I have a nagging question (Forest.. you know what's coming) Where is the horse?  We have the men, we have the wind rose - where is the horse?? I agree with Stercox, that the specifc spot should be as the interpretation of "Like moonlight, in teardrops Over tallgrass Years pass, rain falls" I have imagine that the green picket fence would be a more specfic spot confirmer, but with this location - it could be a toss up. "like moonlight in tear drops" ---> silver salt Wow, it only gets tougher the closer you get The first chapter Written in water        ENTRANCE Near men With wind rose          ONE (OR MANY) OF THE PONCE STATUES Behind bending branches      MAGNOLIA STREET And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree      WHY USE THE TERM 'BASE' AS OPPOSED TO FOOT, SOUTH, ETC...? You can still hear the honking    PASS THE GOOSE POND/ GOOSE PEN/PARKING LOT Shell, limestone, silver, salt        SALT CELLAR Stars move by day                  PLANETARIUM Sails pass by night                  DISCOVERY GLOBE Even in darkness                    FOY SPRING Like moonlight in teardrops Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls.

the old guy's 2 cents ( added to f.b.) is using a clock theory, north being 12, the amount of digging might be reduced 12-fold, thus tying the clock with the wonderstone and the pic. just an idea.

Trohn wrote:: And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree       WHY USE THE TERM 'BASE' AS OPPOSED TO FOOT, SOUTH, ETC...? Funny how we've been talking lately about getting stuck on one idea....Guilty! There may be something, something that may be at the base of a tree that the casque could be buried in.  Can't see BP reducing his hands to bloody stumps digging under a tree (through roots) to hide a casque.  Unless, the tree doesn't have roots.

I worked at the park for about 7 years and met Stercox and she introduced me to this puzzle! I introduced it to one of the owners of the park and finally after years of reminding him, Stercox and company got the chance to dig. Wish we would have found the right spot. I do have a few things to add. Very little has changed at the "fountain" since the time of B.P.. This year, things are being changed-painted-renovated-some displays moved or removed. For now, all the scripts for the show remain the same, what you hear today is the same as in B.P.s time. The park used to have many more flowers-it used to house a small botanical garden (where the rock with palm tree is) and things were blooming constantly. Of particular note-beautiful bearded iris around the Seloy marker and dwarf azaleas all around the tiered base of the Indian Statue. There used to be very tall oleanders growing on the path down to the Ponce statue that were described as bending and like walking through a tunnel. As to the poem, I agree with most of Stercox's ideas and might add (if even for humors sake) that near men with wind rose could have been the men's room and smells associated with it. After all, B.P. was a young college age man who did have a sense of humor. Things that bother me about the poem are...at the base of a tall tree...is it really a tall tree, something made of wood, or perhaps a tall statue? Is it just a marker you pass by or it it where you dig? The last lines of the poem still are a puzzle to me...Why OVER the tall grass, how tall are we talking...is the tall grass related to the tall tree? There are stands of Bamboo and Cane in the park and I would guess you could call an Iris plant's leaves a kind of tall grass. I Like the rain (reign) falls idea since this was the area where the Spaniards first encountered the Natives and this was the Chiefdom for the Timucua tribe, and this is where their reign ended. I am glad to see so many people working together on this one and hope it gets found. One more thing, the picture is too hard to decipher, I cant tell you how many days I walked around that park and looked for things to match up! I think some of this picture might have mirror images in it. (before you try it, make sure you arent going to scratch your picture with a sharp edge.) By placing a mirror across the jewel from left to right, I see a magnolia cone, if you have been around magnolia trees, you know they are kind of like pine cones with a woody stem. At the bottom of the picture I see the palm tree and the rock as the Bridge of Lions, which is a draw bridge, that is open. The bridge is viewable from the far end of the park. I wish I could put pics up for you but only have a little webtv and it doesnt have that capability. Stercox, tell me again how much you hate roots and why they call it armchair treasure hunting?!Good luck to all and keep those good ideas going, I think you are all brilliant!

Okay, I'm going to ask this again, then shut up... What about the obelisk? From the satellite pic of the park I saw, if I have the obelisk pinpointed as I think is correct, then I saw that the edge of the park against the water sort of looked like the edge of the banner the spaniard is holding. The obelisk is on a square base inside a big circle--like the device on the banner. I hate to keep hammering on about this, but no one has even said whether this might even be a good idea. My idea for this is in a couple posts back. ? ck

shecrab - stercox said, in her long post: "A solid confirmer is the schematic symbol on the flag and even the shape of the flag itself. The symbol is found on an archeological site map found at the park. It symbolizes an obelisk monument out by the coastline." She also mentions this resemblance - and also the resemblance of the flag's outline to the shoreline - in her webshots album "P6 V9 St. Augustine." The obelisk itself (or near it) is a favorite location for the casque for at least one member I know of. The suggestion that one follow the flag like a path is new, however, and I like that idea. Does the flag match the shoreline closely enough that one could follow it like a path? What's at the end?

Welcome Sawdusty! It is nice to have you here. I hope you stay awhile and help us crack this nut.

If you followed the banner along it would most likely be along the shoreline and if that casque was buried along the shoreline, then it is gone! Hurricanes and storms have washed away feet (not inches) of the property in this area and the owners are just this year getting permission to construct a seawall to prevent further erosion of the property. As a matter of fact, almost all the property south from the duck pond is flooded after any strong storm or hurricane. It would be helpful if anyone knew the time of year that BP buried these casques and if there were any storms at that time.

I want to remind old and new (welcome) that while BP has been cryptic and puzzling, his solution(s) - the number of solutions we have is up for interpretation- that a tree is a tree is a tree  (always has been) Milwaukee    (proud tall fifth) Fort Moultrie    (lone member of a forest to the south) St Augustine.      (base of a tall tree)

Perhaps "you can STILL hear the honking" assumes that the geese are no longer in sight.

forest_blight wrote:: shecrab - stercox said, in her long post: "A solid confirmer is the schematic symbol on the flag and even the shape of the flag itself. The symbol is found on an archeological site map found at the park. It symbolizes an obelisk monument out by the coastline." She also mentions this resemblance - and also the resemblance of the flag's outline to the shoreline - in her webshots album "P6 V9 St. Augustine." The obelisk itself (or near it) is a favorite location for the casque for at least one member I know of. The suggestion that one follow the flag like a path is new, however, and I like that idea. Does the flag match the shoreline closely enough that one could follow it like a path? What's at the end? I apologize if my post sounded irritable...I did not read that the banner had been a confirmer. Anyway, I wasn't necessarily thinking that the shoreline might be a place to bury the casque, only that it might be used as a sight-line for the casque by pinpointing it better--or by maybe following it it would lead somewhere else? And--the other thing is that the banner's FLAGPOLE might point to the location---in relation to the shoreline, (banner) and the obelisk (device on banner.) The base of the 'tall' tree might indeed mean the flagpole--oir that might be where the tree IS. If you look at the image, the jewel is sort of at the "base" where the flagpole sits--it's on the head, which is the 'base' where the horse and spaniard are. I think that the artist put the jewel in the picture approximately where it might be found.  :) Thanks for the clarifications on my question too. ck

johann - I think that was stercox' assumption all along, and the reason for digging in that corner, which was just out of sight (but not out of hearing) of the geese. A more liberal reading indicates any place within earshot of the goose pen, whether they were still in sight or not. But I agree that it's more likely that one could not see the geese from the burial site. Besides the planetarium, what are some other things that would obscure the geese from view but not from hearing?

johann wrote:: Perhaps "you can STILL hear the honking" assumes that the geese are no longer in sight. Can the verse be used as a guided walk through the park (like in Houston) and make one pass the goose pen to get to the final location?? I tried this and didn't come up with anything really good.

How long has the duck/goose pond been there and is it between the spring/discovery globe/and the Chief??

Thanks for the welcome here and I hope to hang around long enough to see this solved! I dont live far away from the park so can go and check theories if needed, can't do any digging since I have to get around with a cane and can't operate a shovel and cane at the same time. Will have to wait for Stercox and the digging team to come back for that. Hope to see some of you on her next trip!

#35 of 117.. That tall(er) "tree" sure has a base.  what exactly is that, a lamppost?

#42 of 117.. is that Trohn's stone tablet thingy behind the palm tree in this pic?  if not, what is it?  an oddly shaped white thing next to a palm tree is intriguing.

Trohn, There were only two green picket fences that we could identify for sure during BP's time, one near the planetarium and the other if you stood and looked at the Ponce Statue, facing the water, the fence would be to your left and ran from the gift shop to the water line. There was no fence at the water behind the Obelisk at that time. Now there are some metal gates at the park too that could be called "picket fence" if you think about it and they could have been painted green at one time. The fence from the gift shop area has always been in a huge brushy area that appears to have been kept brushy from old photo's I have seen.

What if Ponce represents the Men with wind rose ?  Near him, behind the bending branches, at the base of the tree right behind the wall in stecox's pic that I linked for Fox just moments ago? Stercox, I know you are tired.  Wake up, we need you. edit:  whoa. there was a green picket fence by Ponce?

67 of 117.. This pic shows: * a set of 3 to 4 cement steps (left..leading up to indian statue) *a tall tree behind or surrounded by a stone walled area (base of tree?...design on stone area similar to rock in P6?) *a palm tree how would access to this little grassy area be to BP trying to bury something?

Forest blight, funny you should mention tree roots, because after the first day of digging I did look up some information to find out how fast tree roots grow...not alot of help out there and found a little info on palm tree roots, according to what I read, they do not get big, just shoot out a little and can be cut off when transplanting the tree. I don't think the roots of palms grow out very far.

boogieman wrote:: What if Ponce represents the Men with wind rose ?  Near him, behind the bending branches, at the base of the tree right behind the wall in stecox's pic that I linked for Fox just moments ago? edit:  whoa. there was a green picket fence by Ponce? The pic again: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2297612860064740493zdxdTS

If I were putting on a treasure hunt similar to this.... #89 of 117 would, in my mind, be an ideal spot.  Standing at a very prominent spot in the park (PDL statue) and looking away, one sees a lone palm tree.  Things by themselves seem to stand out much more than one of many.

Boogieman, I drank from the water at the fountain of youth and it made me a girl too!!!My husband is a master carpenter so we can call him saw man.

Sawdusty wrote:: Trohn, There were only two green picket fences that we could identify for sure during BP's time, one near the planetarium and the other if you stood and looked at the Ponce Statue, facing the water, the fence would be to your left and ran from the gift shop to the water line. There was no fence at the water behind the Obelisk at that time. Now there are some metal gates at the park too that could be called "picket fence" if you think about it and they could have been painted green at one time. The fence from the gift shop area has always been in a huge brushy area that appears to have been kept brushy from old photo's I have seen. If you look at the yellow map, I am interested in 'area D' One would walk from the entrance, past the spring, past the duck/goose pond on the right, to ponce statue, and then turn and face south - looking at the  'small marker' in the distance with the palm tree behind it. Then you would notice as you slightly orientate yourself a quarter turn that the bay/ocean is behind the 'small marker' and the 'pond' is in front of it. Now look up, and ponce is facing the same direction as the image. Walk backwards, without losing this orientation, and you hit the green picket fence. Turn around and that is your tall tree.

I think what we need is a better map, with all these landmarks indicated, and everything drawn to scale. Like we have for the Children's Zoo in Houston. I am sad about Bitsy's demise, but my pick for "most likely spot" is, at the moment, directly under her.

Boogieman, the picture of ponce that you were looking at, to the left and at quite a distance, would have been a green picket fence but quite hidden by huge brush and trees.

The only way I can see Stercox's pictures is if you post a link so I would really like to see the one you were talking about Fox..67 of 117?

#67 of 117 hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/22 ... good-times

Thanks 2fast for the pic! This picture shows the blue roofed building "the first encounters building". To the right of this building you would see a hugh stand of bamboo and then the Indian burial grounds. Behind the large tree you see the tiered planter base for the statue of Chief Ariba. There used to be dwarf azaleas planted there. The chief had a long spear with an arrowhead at one time but that was broken during a hurricane. This was considered to be the "center of the park" when I was a tour guide because it is in front of the springhouse and discovery globe and is where you would bring all the guests when they were finished with the planetarium so you could direct them as to what to see next. The bench is relatively new, before my time, a guide told me a couple had been sitting on the bench had just got up and a branch from an old tree snapped and landed on the bench and crushed it just after they had left. Never liked going out under the trees on a windy day after that.

Sawdusty wrote:: Boogieman, I drank from the water at the fountain of youth and it made me a girl too!!!My husband is a master carpenter so we can call him saw man. Geez... 0 for 2.  Well, when I get down there, I'm drinking from it too.  Maybe then I'll be smarter. (and prettier)

I'm with boog.  I'd put it right behind the wall to the left of the Ponce statue.  Didn't walls figure into previous finds?

Unknown: Didn't walls figure into previous finds? Yes. And fences!

forest_blight wrote:: Yes. And fences! And horses....

Love It!!   Lots of good ideas floating around.  I know that its hard to orient yourself and the webshots rearranger is still not working.  This may help give you a better sense of the different areas and of scale that the park's yellow hand drawn map does not.  I have added the green fences, ones I'm definitely sure about, Sawdusty--so glad to finally see you on these boards!!!!!!!! I could not remember the orientation for the fences near and round the gift shop that well, so its my best guess.  Do I have it right?  Been really busy since posting all that mess and trying to get caught up at work.  I'll join in the discussion tomorrow.  Thanks all.

Stercox, just read this whole thread again and, besides us working together and all, this one's all yours!  I'm shocked that it took some of us this long to jump in.  I hope we can help you solve the last bit of it.  BTW, this last map is awesome.  thanks. I like your first thoughts on this from your 2005 posts, towards the coastline . Now, I won't say I'm right here, but I like it.  And since you've been there with Sawdusty, how about this: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/68771462@N00/349813947/ edit: I like the tree on the right, but the one on the left would do as well, with that mysterious red marking at the bootom of the wall.

Ok, just playing around with trying to analyze and compare the sat. image with P6.  Take a look at this: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/15615105@N00/445708803/ For those that are trying to use the jewel to pinpoint a location, this analysis could lead you to what appears to be a large tree (labeled "1") that is near Ponce (based on the layout in stercox previously posted picture).  Is this indeed an existing tree that is offset from the rest a little bit?  Is it in any of the photos in the webshots album?

Hey, pretty good 2fast!  Could be that tree, or it could be Ponce...

Here is a link to an album on flickr that has some photos of the park at some different parts and/or different angles...some of them are interesting. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/68771462@N ... inofyouth/

Sawdusty wrote:: To the right of this building you would see a hugh stand of bamboo and then the Indian burial grounds. Bamboo == tall grass?

Boogieman, that looks like an oak to me....Stercox, your favorite thing...more huge roots!! With the orientation of the tree, you might get lucky and have a lot of the roots growing out toward the water, though it is saltwater.

let me try it this way...salty water

I try to put myself in the author's shoes for a minute. You are a young college age man in a strange southern town at night, carrying around a shovel and going to dig at a very very dark park full of hugh tree roots and noisy animals. I think what ever place he picked would have been easy to get to, easy to identify and hopefully not full of big tree roots in order to place the casque. You go to your spot, dig your hole, drop it in and take a last look around, and get the heck out of there before you get caught! He may have used the daylight hours after the park closed and before dark or early in the morning before the park opened, he would have the advantage of the light but a greater chance of being discovered.

Sawdusty wrote:: Boogieman, that looks like an oak to me....Stercox, your favorite thing...more huge roots!! With the orientation of the tree, you might get lucky and have a lot of the roots growing out toward the water, though it is salpregnant fisher. (Love these filters) I was thinking there would be less roots against the stone wall, in line with the base of the tree. Yes, one is an oak, the one on the right, but the one to the left is a palm. Behind bending branches though, makes it the oak. I'm guessing here, but would you be able to see the geese or pond from behind the wall? hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/68771462@N00/349813947/

This picture looks like it is taken from the back of the ponce statue. At this angle, the duck pond would be directly in front of statue itself.

And now that I'm taking the time to look back through all the recent posts and links, I think the person who took the picture in the following link was standing within feet of the casque site, looking SE... hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/68771462@N00/349744340/ ...and I think this picture from Stercox shows the casque site.  I would be near the base of the scraggly trees by the tabby wall.  There used to be a fence across this view. hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/20 ... 0493qzPJfr This one too, beneath the taller of the trees on the right: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/26 ... 0493hMaSmh

hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/208956 ... 0493wCCONH Dam! That must have been rough.  I sweat looking at it.  I wish that it didn't have to be so secretive. Maybe those digs could have been avoided.  Or yet, we probably wouldn't be this close without them.  Again- You know how we like to talk each other out of ideas. Anyway, I respect the silence, you never know who is lurking on this site waiting to dig. Pine Tree, welcome back old timer.  Love your ideas.  You should get down there and give the girls a hand. (You're a dude, right?) 50/50 chance you're going to be digging twice. i think Fox should change his summer plans to New York and join all of you.  The Fountain of Youth will make you young again!!!!! (just stay away from the water LOL)

Ya know, it turns out that a hole full of roots in St. Augustine looks a lot like a hole full of roots in Milwaukee, doesn't it? Yes, I'm a, um, "dude". Speaking of roots, you know that tall palm tree just SE of the PDL statue that looks so tempting?  When we went in 2005, i brought in some long probe rods (easily hidden in the frame of a big honkin' double jog stroller) and surreptitiously tested the ground all around it.  Roots galore, all over the place.  Very hard to find any clear sand. Pine

niteowl9 wrote:: Bamboo == tall grass? i love this man!  (I lived with bamboo in the backyard many years ago, it does grow like weeds, and has green leaves that look like blades of grass while living)

Maybe thats because bamboo IS a true grass!

Pinetree- welcome back to the hunt de jour. everyday, we travel to another remote location, and have a virtual tour I like all of your thoughts and as Stercox indicated, she started looking at the coastline as well, but I think (in a huge area such as this) BP gave us a few clues on how to narrow it down. The green fence can not be a narrowing down clue, since there are at least three long green fences at various places in the park. I think he selected 'near men' to be the narrowing down clue.  The men in the park are: Ponde de Leon Chief Tumucuan 1st Encounters Also, I think that his phrasing (and our scouring of the site) indicates that no statue has a 'wind rose' with them... so we must read the next line as "near men" and "also near a wind rose" There is a (sort of) wind rose on top of the planetarium.  Or as indictaed, the duck pond is in the shape of a wiind rose. I am using the image of the flag (with the obelisk design) as a reference to orient oneself at the site. The flag pole being a survey's line of sight.  The casque being a few degrees south of the line of east/west from the obelisk.

Do we know what the sign saids in this photo? hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/25 ... 0493uUWaOY

Trohn - there is an ACTUAL WIND ROSE inside the planetarium. This has to be the wind rose referred to in the verse. There are even MEN near it. Can't we say that part of the puzzle has been solved and move on to less certain parts?

Unknown: ...there is an ACTUAL WIND ROSE inside the planetarium. This has to be the wind rose referred to in the verse. There are even MEN near it. Unknown: I know that several portions of this differ significantly from Stercox's theory, especially as pertains to the Planetarium. Forest wrote: That's what I meant when I wrote: It's just that I'm not certain that "near" means "really, really near" as opposed to just "also in the FOY park", like the "silver, salt" stuff. Pine

The first chapter      Entrance Written in water Near men With wind rose Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking    Goose Pen Shell, limestone, silver, salt    Ponce Cross/Springhouse Stars move by day    Planetarium Sails pass by night    Discovery Golbe Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops    midpark fountain Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls.

I am getting ready to go to the park and check on a few things..Trohn, the white sign was not there during BP's time if that is the one you are talking about.

More high quality photos of the park. Note the purple flowers... hxxp://www.sunandseabeachweddings.com/F ... youth.html

I am also going to visit St. George st to look for the fountain that got transferred there. I believe it is this one but I need to get better pictures. hxxp://www.oldestwoodenschoolhouse.com/

An interesting note: There are 82 petals on the asters in P6, by my count. 82 is also depicted in the rock, and is one of the bounding longitudes for St. Augustine. If this is the fountain that was moved, it bears a passing resemblance to the pattern on Ponce's flag: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jcanen57/154304866/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mary-heather/183883630/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/docblade/68006254/ There is another large fountain further south (on King St.) that has roughly this shape. For neither fountain is it possible to say that the curved parts form a circle, however. This looks like your fountain, SawDusty (ha! get it? Fountain of youth ??): hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/fallingpants/329808630/

forest_blight wrote:: An interesting note: There are 82 petals on the asters in P6, by my count. 82 is also depicted in the rock, and is one of the bounding longitudes for St. Augustine. If this is the fountain that was moved, it bears a passing resemblance to the pattern on Ponce's flag: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jcanen57/154304866/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mary-heather/183883630/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/docblade/68006254/ There is another large fountain further south (on King St.) that has roughly this shape. For neither fountain is it possible to say that the curved parts form a circle, however. This looks like your fountain, SawDusty (ha! get it? Fountain of youth ??): hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/fallingpants/329808630/ Forrest- That fountain...... Rain Falls!!!

Just got back from the Fountain and from St George St. Forrest...LOL..I do believe that the last fountain picture you showed is the correct one. Only the top was changed. If I remember correctly, the fountain outside the planetarium had the girl and boy with umbrella sitting on top of the pedestal that is currently holding the cherub. Fits pretty good with years pass..rain falls. Took a lot of pictures of trees and monuments together and as soon as I get them developed, will send them to Stercox to include in the collection so that if we get more bad storms and lose more trees, at least we know where the big ones are now! More later.

Trohn and SawDusty - If that fountain was right outside the planetarium, I'll bet it WAS the source of "rain falls." Where, precisely, was the fountain located back then?

Here is a much better shot of the fountain: hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/1463580330063331622kwfRAY

OK, so that fountain used to be at FOY and was relocated?  I missed something. And the rain falls was right by the Planetarium.  OK. FB, you are convinced the site is there somewhere, by the planetarium? We are going to need three teams down there. (i know, i know. Quietly)

just the top part of the fountain got moved. The fountain is located between the green picket fence and the entrance to the planetarium. See first picture of Beautiful Fountain/garden area. hxxp://www.sunandseabeachweddings.com/F ... youth.html

It would be so wonderful if that fountain had a sign or plaque of some sort that mentioned years passing...

See, you just made me think of something, there was a sundial mounted on a pedestal between the springhouse and the globe...had the saying about..grow old with me..the best is yet to be..same as at the giftshop.

Yee Haw, this is getting fun. We need a map.

Pine_Tree wrote:: Yee Haw, this is getting fun. We need a map. It is still going to be at the 'base' of a 'tall tree' I wish they would preserve me when I get moved

Unknown: FB, you are convinced the site is there somewhere, by the planetarium? I'm pretty certain, but ya never know for sure 'til you dig up a flowerpot.

Ya know, these pics Stercox took are excellent, but like she said, you have to go to the park to get the real deal.  Same with Sawdusty's memory, brilliant, and if a few more brains (and hands) could get down there, hash it out, then my my.... Maybe the green fence that got blown away is the key.  It was by the goose pen right, Sawdusty? If it wrapped around the back of the planetarium, and to the Globe,(eons and eons passing), then the "rain" falls, at the "base" of a tall tree can be the X. Wondering, did the goose pen have water?  Sprinkler?  Just outside the pen behind the fence. Standpipe, firehose, a well.  Fountain?  Anything that could rain water down on the geese?  I can see BP safely digging there.

If you walk out of the planetarium and walk out to the fountain of the girl/boy with umbrella, behind that is the green picket fence then the little road to the exit and beyond that is a hugh stand of bamboo. So..... Over the tall grass (bamboo) Years pass, rain falls (youthful fountain with umbrella) Sounds good to me anyway! No fence back behind the goose pen, fence was down by the water and up to the gift shop through the trees. Dont know how they watered the geese, There was no water source or pond behind the Planetarium, just a pen. That will be on my list of questions for the ower after he gets done with spring vacation. Other fence is in front of planetarium. Sure wish all of you could come down here and walk this out. Got the pictures back and they are on the way to Stercox. You can never have too many pictures.

Thanks SD.  You clarified alot for me.  I was looking for some kind of water fixture after looking at the Chicago find pic by Loph.  A fence and a fixture.  Take a look. hxxp://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1152 ... 2872spwhMX

Since most of us can't make it to FOY, another option might be to take enough photos for me to create 360º images of certain areas. If you'd like to try it just stand in one spot and, keeping the camera level, take a photo, turn slightly to the right making sure that part of the image overlaps the previous image, take another photo, and repeat until you return to the original image (take that one again, just in case).  You should end up with 12 to 20 photos for each panorama.  Use a low resolution (640X480 is fine).  Email them to me and I'll put it all together. I know that seems like a lot of work, but it would really give the rest of us a better feel for the area.  Single photos are fine, but I always wonder what is behind the photographer. Here are some examples -- hxxp://users.crocker.com/~bclews/

Here is Stercox's photo from the planetarium looking at the Umbrella Fountain.... and see the picket fence. hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/27 ... 0493tXsKEY Is it brown or green or has it chnaged?

In Stercox's photo of the umbrella fountain, that is original green picket fence!

Nice work Stercox (and everyone else too)!  Sawdusty, you are being a huge help!   :app) I still plan on taking my family to St. Augustine in a couple of months (probably mid-June).  Unfortunately, Siskel will not be able to make the trip.  I am reading and absorbing everything, though, to prepare.  I will put my 2 cents in when I think I have something to contribute.  It would be wonderful to meet any of you while I am there. All of this assumes, of course, that the treasure will not be found before then!   ;) Reading the verse, it seems to me that the exact location of the treasure is "behind bending branches and a green picket fence, at the base of a tall tree."  With so many people talking about different locations, things moving, trees not being there anymore, etc., it is difficult to figure out if there is an exact spot that phrase in quotes describes.  Sawdusty and Stercox (or anyone else) --- is there such a spot?

Egbert- Here is such a spot... just inside of Magnolia Avenue. hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/200402 ... 0493SRSlSE And this corner is across the street from the Men's Rest Room (not saying that that is what the verse means, but it is a fact) And to get to this spot, without jumping the fence, one would have to pass all of the approriate landmarks (get to the end of the other side of the picket fence) and then double back to the Magnolia street wall. and here is the view from the planetarium looking at the fence corner and the wall and magnolia and the bedning branches hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/27 ... 0493QYfvXe

Can someone tell us what the street name is that is perpendicular to Magnolia Street (parallel to the picket fence that takes you into the park) ? hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/283765 ... 0493UOGQqw (and leads you to the old palm avenue

"like moonlight in teardrops" hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/21 ... 0493ZorICN This wall, the material, the many many small tiny shells reflecting the sunlight, I think this is what he is referring to with this mysterious phrase. Teardrops being very very small oval salty drops and the moonlight being the silvery reflections. So, if this is the case, we have in the planetarium grounds, the inside NW corner where the coquia wall meets the green picket fence...under the magnolia trees and in besides the tall grass. And the image six (like in Cleveland) does have the jewel imbedded in stone.

Nice trohn.  Like that too. Even in darkness!

Don't think there is a name for the road running along the green picket fence. It is just takes you to the exit to the park. I like the picture of the planetarium and the tabby wall (man-made coquina) It is like a big moon rising over the wall. Be glad to have Egbert come to visit the Fountain, the more eyes the better! Hope to see you while you are here.

Hello Everyone!  Been off the board this week--had to get caught up at work.  Are we having fun yet?   I hope at this point that there are very few doubters that BP came to the FOY park and buried a ceramic pot 3 feet under the ground there. Reading through all the great ideas and thoughts here--the first thing that struck me is... ...the place to dig should be the east side of the planetarium entrance rather than the west side…but my pick for "most likely spot" is, at the moment, directly under her ...in my mind, be an ideal spot.  Standing at a very prominent spot in the park (PDL statue) and looking away, one sees a lone palm tree…I like either this statue or around the obelisk ...without losing this orientation, and you hit the green picket fence.  Turn around and that is your tall tree… And this location behind the fountain, has enough room between the base of the fountain and the east side of the tree, for a hole. I'd put it right behind the wall to the left of the Ponce statue. I like the tree on the right, but the one on the left would do as well…Could be that tree, or it could be Ponce... ...the owner of the park, his pet theories are at the Indian Statue, at the Seloy marker, or against the wall of the park near the planetarium For me, I think it might be at the big magnolia tree just inside the picket fence near the planetarium. ...then I would look for the casque between the base of the tall tree and the low tabby wall…I would be near the base of the scraggly trees by the tabby wall…A first alternate would be just south of the fence position Who said, "Great minds think alike"?? It seems the closer you get, the tougher it gets.  If we are persistent, smart and maybe a little lucky this one can be found--I am sure of it!  We have a lot going in our favor.  The park has not changed that much in nearly 25 years.  We have a definite P and V match up, with certainty.  We have identified much of the confirmers in the verse (save the last cryptic stanza).  We can dig there, albeit quietly.  We have Sawdusty to recon and check things out (when possible).  We have all your brilliant minds working on it.   This can be done!!  WE're due!  I have had many of the same ideas that you have had at some point or another in looking at this, some I dismissed--not because they are wrong--but because I thought I found something better at the time.   First if there are pictures that you feel need to be a part of the webshot album, email them to me and I will add them, so we have a centralized database of images for future reference.  Also, the best map of this park right now is probably the aerial view I created a couple days ago.  There is no better map.  I will also update that as new information comes to light.   Now to dig in...

Unknown: Here is such a spot...So, if this is the case, we have in the planetarium grounds, the inside NW corner where the coquia wall meets the green picket fence...under the magnolia trees and in besides the tall grass. Unknown: Can someone tell us what the street name is that is perpendicular to Magnolia Street (parallel to the picket fence that takes you into the park) ? Trohn, This NW corner would be really suspect I think for two reasons:  (1) Not out of view of the goose pen (although admittedly--I could be making too much of BP's choice of wording hear vs see in the verse)  (2) That NW corner is where the electric comes into the park, its underground and exactly from that corner to the planetarium per the owner.  We had to find out about the underground lines before we dug near the planetarium.   Now if I remember right, the owner told us that they had trenched the area they were going to lay the power lines in--This was done a [few] years back, I believe well after 1980-81.  So the power lines were not there in BP's time--but they are now.  And there would be trenching in that area which would be really bad for us if the casque is there and disrupted.  Plus it would be ill advised to dig there now.  I do like the fact that you are finally up near the planetarium though.   ;) Like S'dusty said--this road is really an exit drive out of the park, it is on park property.  Everything behind the coquina wall running along Magnolia Avenue (which is most of Magnolia avenue) is on the park proper.  This wall on Magnolia avenue is the park's west boundry.

Unknown: Perhaps the shape of the rock in the image is a design on the wall of the planetarium and further narrows down the search location to being in front of it.  The picture in the webshots album "P6 V9 St. Augustine" that is titled "Stars move by day" has one such design about 4/5 of the way up that could be interpruted to be the rock.  Perhaps you find the design and orient yourself so that you see a tree (palm?) in the distance that lines up as in the image. 2fast-- I thought about this on our second trip down.  I took a bunch of pictures of the outside walls and looked them over and over and really did not find anything conclusive.  You will be glad to know that the owner has also thought about this idea as well and we talked about it at the dig.  Which brings us to back to the utility of the rock--tree combo and how do we interpret this image.  Should we take it to mean we are looking for that tree pictured?  Or is it an artistic symbol of Florida?  Are we looking for an alignment of water, rock and tree??  I did have a theory that the fountain in front of the planetarium could be the source of the water.  But how does that all fit in?

Unknown: One thing I noticed, the 'small marker' (photo 117 of the FOY tour) looks exactly (and the same angle) of the 'island rock' with palm tree. (even the shadows match up) We took that picture of the small marker trying to make it fit the rock--tree image, because the look of the small marker reminded us of the rock as well.  This is way out by the coast.  There was nothing in the verse that confirmed this area and we eventually, let it go.  As I understand it S'dusty has taken the more angled picture at the 11:00 position of this small marker with the tree--so we'll see what that looks like.  Again do we worry about the water?

Unknown: Maybe you could follow the banner the conquistador is holding as if it were a path, and the jewel will be at the end of it....or perhaps where the bottom of the flagpole rests--use it as a pointer and the jewel will be roughly where it is in relation to that? Unknown: I too think that we are missing an important piece to the puzzle which (in my humble opinion) is hidden in the large rock of P6. Shecrab & Fox-- I agree.   I have always thought that Ponce's position, the flag, that he is elevated (albeit on a horse), that the pole, the obelisk symbol lining up right where the obelisk is, the  image of the flag flailing out like the path does running south along the coastline toward the small marker just screams that there is a map here and the jewel is pictured where it will be found.  If that asumption is true--then the westside of the park is mapped out in the big rock.  Now I've always felt the big rock is subject to interpretation---like one of those psychological ink blot tests they give people ---"And what do you see now?"-- that's it---the "Rorschach Rock"!! But on this third visit a new little theory started to be developed--mostly based on the owner's interpretation of the rock imagery.  It is possible that the big rock is a symbolic map of the park.  Meaning, there are images in there that symbolize the things in the buildings.  Examples would be the stone cross found in the Springhouse, or the head dress on the chief, or the silhouette of an indian grave, or the dome of the planetarium--all of which an argument can be made that these images are in the Rorschach Rock.   The images are loose and still subject to interpretation--but a symbolic map may be the ticket--and the jewel is the literal "X marks the spot".

Unknown: I wonder if the place to dig should be the east side of the planetarium entrance rather than the west side. The verse says Near men with wind rose, not Near wind rose with men. Geese are loud critters; you might still hear them even if you were on the opposite side of the building from them. There's a tree over there, too, and it's still standing. Forest-- After about the 100th root we hit with our shovels--obviously other thoughts start entering your mind--right after the one-- "We're not gonna find it"--you've been there--you know what I mean.  We did consider the other side.  I don't know if I agree that its under Bitsy--and I'm not sure we could dig there any more than we could dig near powerlines--maybe even more so.  But I do like the Magnolia tree on the east side--it does fit the verse nicely and is isolated due to its proximity to the planetarium vestibule.  [Did I say, I hate roots.]  I'm in the process of dumping my pre-conceived notions and taking a step back--maybe some counseling or hypnosis will help. I really did like the west side because I felt the verse You can still hear the honking created an extraordinary line that when crossed moved you from seeing to hearing.  I will say that there are areas around that original oak tree that still fit my original theory but have not been dug yet.  And certainly eastside is a hot alternate!

Unknown: Can the verse be used as a guided walk through the park (like in Houston) and make one pass the goose pen to get to the final location?? I could never make it work either.

Unknown: Can someone tell me if there is a green fence to the north and east of Ponce, on the way to the obelisk but to the left?? There is a fence that possibly ran from the gift shop all the way down to the coast that was at least in part a picket fence.  It would have been green like the others.  Sawdusty checked this out and I think that Pine also saw this same fence on his trip.  It would nearly run the entire length of the North border of the park but is found in very heavy brush.  Sawdusty is going to verify this with the owner.  Do you remember it Pine??  If it gets confirmed--I'll add it to the aerial map.

Unknown: haven't figured out why he is depicted on a horse, unless it is part of the mythical global puzzle... It never bothered me.  There are a lot of things in the images from Cleveland and Chicago that were in there as part of artistic composition only and really didn't contribute to finding it.  I did think that the horse elevated Ponce (as he appears that way in his statue).  The bigger question is---How important is it in this hunt to consider the direction Ponce is looking?  He is facing North or left in P6 using the flag and pole visual match up with the park's pathways as a directional.  What I find more interesting in P6,  is he is looking down--down into a deep hole.   Does it mean anything?  Just soley based on this part of the picture, one could make an argument to dig around North or left of the Ponce statue (but I never felt that this uses all the clues available in the verse or even within the P6).  Maybe it means, when we find the right tree, we should dig North or left (after all "at the base of a tree" is really a 360 degree dig).  Maybe its all about artistic composition afterall??

Unknown: ...fence shown on the Archaeological Site Map and I’m obviously hoping this fence was green.  This fence stretched roughly east-west, just south of the low enclosure, and some trees and bushes are evident in the overhead view. Pine-- I remember asking about that very fence with one of the staff old timers--I thought he told me that it never ran that direction that he knew of,  although it is on the archeological site map that way.  I also found out that they have had many fences out there and they keep getting blown out to sea during hurricanes.  Maybe Sawdusty can verify the fence seen on the archeological map for us. My original thoughts were much more in line with yours--meaning, its out near the coastline--but then two things drug me back toward the west side of the park--the wind rose find and the goose pen.  It seemed to me that most of the verse clues kept taking me back to the main park area.  Good thing is--if we play our cards right--we should be able to check out most theories, east park or west park.

Unknown: Near men ---->  could be referring to the two statues at this part o the park (Ponde and the Chief) With wind rose --->  (besides the obvious reference to the explorers) I think I read/saw someone post that the duck/goose pond is in this shape. This would absolutely narrow the searching area, if true. A couple years ago, when researching what was available to look at on-line, I thought the same thing.  But when we got there I did not feel that the duck pond looked at all like a wind rose.  It does appear to be like one on the park's yellow map they sent me, but in reality the duck pond has only three squiggly arms radiating from the center, not 4, to represent the cardinal directional positions (it may be difficult to see that from the pictures).  It would have to be a Salvador Dali interpretation to really meet the elements for a wind rose.  And when I found the "wind rose"  the statues became less of a factor for me.  I still believe, and its my humble opinion, that using the constructs given to find the previous casques (that is, the picture gets you to the park, the verse gets you to the casque site, and verse tells you where to dig with a visual confirmer from the picture [the wall pictured for Cleveland, the fence and fixture pictured for Chicago]) that at the very least, we should be looking in the west part of the park.  Nearly all the verse identifiers are in this part of the park--but what is the final visual confirmer?  The tree?  The rock--tree--water combo??  Surely others could be right---the obelisk symbol and the Ponce statue make a very convincing final visual confirmer for another area of the park but the verse clues lose their punch for these areas.  I guess the good thing is all are in play and that together we should decide clearly on our hot spots for the next opportunity to dig.

Unknown: There may be something, something that may be at the base of a tree that the casque could be buried in.  Can't see BP reducing his hands to bloody stumps digging under a tree (through roots) to hide a casque.  Unless, the tree doesn't have roots. Boogie-- This is one of the reasons that I had HOPED for a palm tree--I think that the dig would have been much easier.  And I'll say the same for future digs--but I don't know if isolating ourselves to palm trees is the right thing to do.  There are not much in the way of planters--and certainly nothing permanent (like that found on the backside of the wall in Cleveland).

stercox - the reason I asked about the root-ball of a palm tree earlier was because BP would have had just as much trouble digging around an oak as you did. If it is buried at the base of a tall tree, and there are lots of palms around, ceteris paribus it is more likely to be under a palm tree. Also, I would be more inclined to describe a plam as a "tall tree" than an oak or a magnolia, whose width tends to obscure their height. Not to mention there is a palm tree - with what looks like a line drawn from its trunk the ground beside it - in P6.

Unknown: #42 of 117.. is that Trohn's stone tablet thingy behind the palm tree in this pic?  if not, what is it?  an oddly shaped white thing next to a palm tree is intriguing. Fox-- That white object is a garbage dumpster.

Unknown: If I were putting on a treasure hunt similar to this.... #89 of 117 would, in my mind, be an ideal spot.  Standing at a very prominent spot in the park (PDL statue) and looking away, one sees a lone palm tree.  Things by themselves seem to stand out much more than one of many. Fox-- I loved that isolated palm myself, even probed around it a bit, just to check it out on my first visit.  I don't think we would be allowed to dig out there though--its in the middle of the archeological dig sites.  BTW the archeologists are there quite often during the warmer months.  When they are there--we will likely be prohibited to dig anywhere in the park.  At least it was that way previously--we'd have to check with the owner.

Also, the reason for the flag may be a simple reference to the historical fact that Ponce claimed "La Florida" for Spain in what is now St. Augustine. It is Ponce "planting a flag" for Spain, which nails St. Augustine as the location for the P6 casque. 2¢

forest_blight wrote:: stercox - the reason I asked about the root-ball of a palm tree earlier was because BP would have had just as much trouble digging around an oak as you did. If it is buried at the base of a tall tree, and there are lots of palms around, ceteris paribus it is more likely to be under a palm tree. Also, I would be more inclined to describe a plam as a "tall tree" than an oak or a magnolia, whose width tends to obscure their height.  Not to mention there is a palm tree - with what looks like a line drawn from its trunk the ground beside it - in P6. Yes, I agree.   I have been giving palm trees a lot of thought today and reading through all the posts helped shift my thoughts....a little.  I had subconsciously centered my original theory around the planetarium, falsely thinking that this "centering" was being clue-driven by Near men with windrose .  I like Pine's thoughts about " Near may not mean Near, near".  I do not mean to say that I have given up the idea that it's some where close to the Planetarium--but it may not be as close as I had originally thought.  There are a couple problems that have been nagging at me:  (1) The roots are killer if its any other tree than a palm,  (2) The final visual confirmer just seems like it should be the P6 palm tree, (3) Where do you dig at the base of a tree--without knowing what side to dig on--it becomes a 360 degree dig, (4) The word choice of You can still hear the honking would seem to create an important distinction between seeing the geese and hearing them that I cannot shake.  Some of my original conclusions may still be right.  But how does one get around this problem? If we take Near to mean in close proximity to the Planetarium as opposed to right next to the planetarium vestibule, then the Near men with windrose becomes a "You're getting warm..." type of clue. If we center the goose pen and keep the goose pen at our back, we no longer see it but you can hear it.  This perspective will open up many other possible tree locations in the area.  Not only that but keeping the goose pen at our back--it will tell you where along that base of that tree you should dig when you find the right one.  In this view, we're not eliminating trees, but it could be helpful in finding a palm that fits this idea and I have one in mind...... hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2469791660064740493drBoEx?vhost=good-times This tree always impresses me each time I see it--its tall and straight and reminds me of the P6 tree.  It sits isolated just a short ways behind the planetarium and it would have been behind the goose pen as well as you move south.

One problem is they lost a bunch of other palms in this area during recent hurricanes.

We were back out at the park today taking some more pictures and had walked out to the area behind the planetarium and Jay said "You know, it really could be back here too!" If you stop and think about it, you could line up the bamboo at the restroom, the green picket fence, the umbrella fountain, the planetarium, and keep going back behind the building. There would have been other trees back there that are now gone and may have given him the cover he needed to be out of sight of the goose pen. It could be the tree!

Good luck with the finish. I think we have done just about all of the observing from the pictures and the verse connections without being there. The one thing I would say about the final spot, I would want to be facing East. Also, did I see a picket fence behind (south) of the burial grounds?

Whew!  Since Stercox first posted after the dig, this thread has almost tripled in length. And I believe if this were 82' or 83', you would have found it the first time. I too think all the possibilities have been discussed, so there is no reason to rush. With Sawdusty's eyes and ears, we'll know if the park is going to change. Stercox, Pine Tree, and Egbert, let us know when you are going for the final dig and then we'll see how many more can join you, (quietly).  I don't know if I'll be there or not, but it would be nice to shake hands with all of you. (bclews- I'm going to send you some pics of JPJ Park in Brooklyn pretty soon so you can do your magic. Thanks)

Trohn wrote:: Good luck with the finish. I think we have done just about all of the observing from the pictures and the verse connections without being there. The one thing I would say about the final spot, I would want to be facing East. Also, did I see a picket fence behind (south) of the burial grounds? I see the wooden fence you are referring to.  I think that is a fence that separates the park's public spaces from employee only areas that have storage sheds. equipment, etc.  Its painted brown--don't know if it was always that way.  S'dusty can verify this with the owner. Why facing East?

Facing East. It appears to be the orientation of the image.

I had a thought about your orientation and casque dig site. I am thinking that the palm/rock in the lower right is probably a marker of some sort. I liked the idea that the small marker was the same shape as the rock , and that there was a tree in the pic too...but something about the exposed area of that small marker didn't feel right to me. But what about this: maybe the 'rock' in the image is a 'negative' space rather than a solid object? I mean, what if there is a space roughly that shape and orientation near a palm tree?  It's not possible to tell from the pictures--they may or may not have the correct orientation. But I went over the Chicago and Cleveland solves again, and I noticed that he took a lot of liberties with space--the Ohio and Terminal tower clues in the Cleveland picture are 'negative' spaces--not solid. There is a 'florida-shaped' negative space on the right side of the P6--could that also be 'park-shaped' or could there be another negative space somewhere in the image that might help pinpoint the casque? ck

This may have been mentioned before, but I haven't saw it so... If you look at the reflection of the rock in the water, it is doesn't appear to be a mirror image.  It is close, but if you trace it you will see that there are differences.  Perhaps we are looking for something that is in the combined shape of the rock and its reflection.  Or perhaps we find the perspective that gives you the reflection and that is the perspective used to find where to dig. I think the rock is the key and is the only thing keeping this casque from being found.

shecrab wrote:: could there be another negative space somewhere in the image that might help pinpoint the casque? Nice idea.   Thanks, SC.  I will have to give that some thought...

2fast4u2c wrote:: Perhaps we are looking for something that is in the combined shape of the rock and its reflection.  Or perhaps we find the perspective that gives you the reflection and that is the perspective used to find where to dig. I think the rock is the key and is the only thing keeping this casque from being found. Also a nice thought.  Sawdusty has always thought that it looked like the Lion's Bridge off in the distance from the coastline.  I have thought about finding the perspective to get a similar reflection, that when aligned right would give you the tree you are looking for.  But I haven't found that yet.  I did think that the water could represent a fountain's water base with the rock representing the centerpiece for the fountain and a tree behind it.  But the rock never matched up to anything.  I will consider this again, maybe put a twist on it like you mentioned about the combined rock and reflection and see if we can find such a beast.  Thanks 2fast.

Actually, if you turn the page 90 degrees to the left, the rock and its reflection look a little like the actual shape of the casque to me. It also looks like a hat--or crown. ck

Is there any chance we could obtain a transcript of the narrative that accompanies the Planetarium show? Clearly BP paid admission and watched it, drawing inspiration for a couple of lines. Maybe we could draw inspiration from it as well.

I agree with stercox that BP must have gotten the word "casque" from the salt cellar sign in the FOY park. The real definition of "casque" is a helmet - the kind that goes with a suit of armor. Only in FOY and in The Secret - and nowhere else - has the word casque been used to describe a container. BP must have simply assumed that's what it meant, and adopted it for his hunt. His use of the word "casque" in this way provides yet more evidence (as if we needed any) that this one is buried in the FOY park. I have a reprinting of a 1956 booklet from the Fountain of Youth with a drawing of the silver salt cellar. The caption reads: "Full size drawing of "Silver Casque" by Goold T. Butler, Civil Engineer. The original was five inches in height."

Unknown: I agree with stercox that BP must have gotten the word "casque" from the salt cellar sign in the FOY park. Actually that was Pine 's idea--but I agree with both of you guys.  It is a fun, little connection.

Unknown: Is there any chance we could obtain a transcript of the narrative that accompanies the Planetarium show? Clearly BP paid admission and watched it, drawing inspiration for a couple of lines. Maybe we could draw inspiration from it as well. We might be able to get this from the owner--he actually has a great broadcasting voice and has done the voice overs for the programs in the planetarium and in the Discovery Globe.  We could check...

forest_blight wrote:: The real definition of "casque" is a helmet - the kind that goes with a suit of armor. Only in FOY and in The Secret - and nowhere else - has the word casque been used to describe a container. "The Cask of Amontillado" (sometimes spelled "The Casque of Amontillado") is a short story, written by Edgar Allan Poe and first published in November 1846.  Refers to a container of wine if i remember correctly.  Haven't read it since high school.  Also, if you look up "casque" in some dictionaries, it says "see also cask" which is a container. Now back to treasure hunting!!!

I just learned about that last semester, the cask IS a container of wine, and some dude leads Fortunado into the cellar and "buries" him alive in a brick wall. -regulus

Montressor. "For the Love of God, Montressor..." was popular graffiti on the bottom of any brick wall around our campus back in the 60's. ck

wow... I really need to get my internet back up and working.... another thing mentioned some time ago about our illusive white rock and palm tree is the very strange occurance of said rock being reflected but said tree not...

Visited the FOY park on Saturday Something that occured to me was men with compass rose could simply be men with directions. or something simple as an information booth. so you enter the park passing the 1st chapter sign you pass directly by the information booth. you come right up to a 5 foot tall green picket fence You cant go to the right as that is the exit of the part but you can go to the left... you walk past the end of the fence and come to a sign that says peacock nesting - no tresspassing... but looking back there is a large storage area outside of the park proper... I looked for a large tree from where I stood-but almost all the trees are the same size but looking at it on google earth there is a barn-storage bldg to the left out of site of where I was standing and directly south o that in the treeline is a large tree which would actually be directly in line with the end ofthe green picket fence. I suspect you guys have nailed this one down.  Its a matter of going in at night like BP did or asking nicely for permisson.  (the important piece being its not inside the park grounds....) When I get a chance I will post a google earth picture of exactly where I think it is.  I had to leave soon after getting there I hope there is someone more local who can jump on this... Maltedfalcon

The lines concerning the stars moving by day and sails moving at night almost confirm that you must walk past the discovery globe and the planetarium. I do believe that the last lines 'like moonlight in tear drops' indicates that you are staring at the outer wall with the thousands of embedded sea shells. This wall is indeed 'over the tall grass' Despite the explanation of underground electrical lines, I think (along with the image showing the jewel embedded in a rock) somewhere along the outer wall (behind the green fence) is the proper spot. Malted- Know that someone has a good relationship with the FOY owners and all are interested in unearthing this one.

Actually I assumed those lines  stars.sails tall grass indicated going past the park into the tall grass where there is a view of the waterway with all the sailboats going by.. Great- remember the verse is going to resolve to a straightforward set of directions.  a narrative of a walk you take. it wont have you zig-zagging back and forth. What did you come up with for men with compass rose? again I dont beleive he actually entered the park proper during his walk to the casque. Maltedfalcon

maltedfalcon wrote:: What did you come up with for men with compass rose? again I dont beleive he actually entered the park proper during his walk to the casque. Maltedfalcon This may be true but it is against the findings on the other solves and near solves. (by placing the casques within the historical places, he knew that they would be fairly safe from random constructions) There are many clues form the verse to indicate that he was within the park and attended the exhibits. "near men with wind rose" could be a description of a diarama in the lobby of the Discovery Globe.

Actually I disagree that it is against the other findings and near fnds. Bp placed these casques with the assumption that they would all shortly be found. He made no attempt to place them so they would be safe in the long term.. (he said that) again he placed them at night - are you suggesting he broke into the park? I dont deny he entered the park- at all Does the but the casque will have been placed where it is accesible I also think if you had to pay admission to find clues he would have noted it. (as in the verse where he noted ask persmission to get out) The picture gets you to a location, the verse resolves into a direct walk to the casque. (or so it has been in the findings and near findings...) also notice that the other found verses resolve to more or less straight lines - not meandering paths... Still I wish you the best of luck! MaltedFalcon Matt Sparks

Malted- I agree with your general principles and process. I have not been to FOY so I had always assumed that questions of exactness could be reolved on site. I too think his verses should be as direct a line from point A to point B as possible. Although a zig zag path may be necessary to get one around a green fence (in order to double back to the possible dig location) Good luck shouldn't go to me for this one, I am still looking to dig elsewhere for other images.

Hey everyone:) Long time no talk to~ I've been trying to finish up this whole college thing, and after 4 more weeks of pretty intense work I'll be free! Just wanted to touch base and say I'm really impressed with the progress and I'm glad this one is getting some work. I havn't been able to make a return trip to St. Augustine in a little over a year now but I gotta say I think you have me convinced it's the FOY park afterall. I think I was trying to place it at the other park because of state park dig issues and such. I think next time I go I'll take a little trip out to the small island just for kicks and giggles, but I think everything fits much better at FOY. I hope to be in contact much more over the next month or two, just sending my regards^^ -Guyra

don't forget about this casque people.  ONE STEP AWAY.

I will be at the Fountain of Youth park on Sunday, August 5.  I would love to meet anyone who may be in the area. I have tried to email Sawdusty, but have not been able to get in touch with her.  Perhaps Stercox or someone else knows of a way?  I don't think the owners would allow me to probe the soil without some prior permission!

Egbert- When you are at FOY, can you confirm my interpretation of the last part of the verse..... "Like moonlight in teardrops" The coquia wall along Magnolia Street. Specially just inside of the exit lane. If the wall here does look like silver moon beams of tear drops (all of the tiny individual shells) then it fits that: it is behind the green fence it is underneath bedning branches it is above tall grass it is made up of shells, limestone, silver, salt It would also fit the general theme of the image, being imbeded in a rock face. Take a walk and let us know how it looks in person. (And of course, let us know how the water tastes.)

And take a camera!!

I will certainly take a camera, and look at the wall and everything else.  Someone will have to tell me how to upload the pics, though.

Send it to my e-mail...

bigtd35 wrote:: Hi, new to this forum and first post for me.  I believe that the Ponce De Leon (Mosquito) lighthouse is the right location....but trying to figure out where it is in relation to that.  Any one in FL want to work together on this?  Drop me an email The lighthouse may be the place. If you see my post under literary references, the last line in verse 9  is a reference to Virginia Wolf's poem "To the Lighthouse."  Therefore you could read the last line in the v as a direction to go "to the lighthouse." Shannon

I'm back from St. Augustine.  It was a lot of fun, but no treasure found.  Stercox has already taken pictures of nearly every inch of the park, so I did not want to duplicate them.  So, I uploaded some new pics at: hxxp://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/armchair_treasure_hunting/files/St.%20Augustine/ I could not have done it without Sawdusty.  She and her family were invaluable, and filled with information.  We were not allowed to dig, but we did probe around.  I can see why it has been so difficult to understand where things are in the park.  There is no order to anything --- buildings, statues, and fountains are located haphazardly around the park.  So, with that in mind, I will try and just pick a few spots to describe (see pics above), and will answer any questions that anyone may have. There is a portion of the park that is my pick as to where the treasure is.  You will see in the pics labeled "looking at branches/fence corner" a green picket fence (painted on other side) perpendicular to the outside wall of the park.  It is only 1 of 2 such fences in the park.  The other fence is far away.  Running along the outside of the wall are the bending branches of Magnolia Avenue.  So, how can the treasure be behind both the branches and the fence? ("Behind bending branches and a green picket fence")  I believe that the verse is referring to the corner area which is both behind the wall and behind the fence.  If you stand in the corner, and look toward the general area between the wall and the fence, you see a big tree right in front of you.  There are 2 pics of this.  I probed, but found nothing.  You will see the planetarium behind the tree (where the men with wind rose are), and the Discovery Theater to the left of it. If you stand in the corner and look to the right (there is a pic of this), about 50 feet away is where the goose pen was.  So, it appears that you would be in sight of the pen, which is not good if you believe that you need to be out of sight of it but still hear it.  However, Sawdusty informed me that the duck pen, which is farther away, is where the geese stayed during the day, and the goose pen is where the geese were put at night.  So, if BP thought that the geese lived in the duck pen, then this corner would be out of sight of them, but you could still hear them. If you stand in the corner and look slightly to the left (there is a pic of this), you will see the Discovery Theater and the fountain (which used to have the kids under the umbrella).  About 20 feet beyond the fountain is a sundial, which has now been moved but is still in the park --- it says Grow Old With Me etc. If you stand in the corner and look all the way to the left (pic of this), there is an area on the other side of the fence which used to be a lookout post for a guard 25 years ago.  So, it may have been very tricky for BP to have buried this within earshot of the guard, and would have to have dug when the guard made his rounds. I also took some interesting pics of the small marker and palm tree, the Seloy marker and palm tree, and a flat rock which Sawdusty believes is in Image 6.  It is late, and I am tired, so I will post more info later. But it was fun!

I really like your theory, Eg. The corner fits the clues (and he buried the Chicago casque in a similar corner near a fence). You would be in sight of the goose pen... except there's a tree right there blocking your view. So even if you couldn't see them (there's a tree in the way), you could still hear the honking. So regardless of where the geese were, it's a good theory. Did you taste the water?

Some things I forgot to mention: According to Sawdusty, there were probably other trees in the branches/fence area which have gotten knocked down by hurricanes over the years.  The owner probably has pictures, but he cannot locate them.  So, the treasure could be located anywhere in that area. Also, most of the trees, including the big one in the "looking straight ahead" pic, are magnolia trees.  I would describe them as "big" or "gigantic" or "grand" or "large," but I would not really think of them as "tall," which is what the verse describes.  Yes, they are tall, but they are also wide.  I think of palm trees as "tall," but there were no palms in the branches/fence area still standing.  There is one very tall pine tree in the entire park, which is located on the other side of the green picket fence.  If you are standing in the branches/fence area looking left, you would need to look further left and over the fence to see it.  I guess it is possible that "behind the fence" could have 2 meanings, depending upon where you are standing.  So, the pine tree could also be considered to be behind the bending branches and behind the fence.  I probed there also (there is a small tree growing next to it which prevents probing completely around the tree), but found nothing.  Also, the pine tree is right near the guardhouse.  If it is at the pine tree, then I think Pine Tree should find it! If you also noticed, I took a picture of the small marker and palm tree so it looks like the one in the book.  The palm tree itself is surrounded by brush, and there has been a lot of erosion and filling-in along that entire area.  The place where you have to stand to take the picture of the marker and tree is almost in the water, at the far end of the park. Sawdusty pointed out some other things in Image 6 that are more references to the park, and she also has her own theory on where the treasure is, but I will let her tell you those things if she chooses to do so. Yes, I tasted the water (even brought a bottle of it back home).  It has a bad sulfur taste --- I hope it was worth it!

You know I went earlier this year. and the clues really seem to fit the area. but I just really have trouble with him planting a casque in a paid admission park, obviously on private property. I just cant see him doing that without at least noting something about it in the verse. ie. the one where he said Ask permission. by default you would think then none of the others needed permission because they are on public land. shoot, if a private land owner (as is the FOY) discovered that an author had without permission buried "treasure" on his property and people were coming without permission to search for it. He would have every right to sue the author and publisher. BP would have been smarter then that. I just dont see it being at the FOY for that reason. It has to be nearby though.

I agree that it's uncomfortable, maltedfalcon, but p. 219 does not exclude private property: The following places do not hold any treasure: (a) any life-threatening location, such as a dangerous highway embankment, a contaminated area or active railway track (b) any cemetery (c) any public or private flower bed (d) any property owned by the contributors to the book, their families or friends. If BP meant to exclude all private property he surely would not have singled out (d). It is almost as if he is saying, "sure, some of the casques are on private property, but not my private property."

Egbert wrote:: Yes, I tasted the water (even brought a bottle of it back home).  It has a bad sulfur taste --- I hope it was worth it! Oh boy!  Just ask Stercox and Sawdusty what happened to them when they drank the water.  Shocking!!!

Egbert wrote:: hxxp://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/armchair_treasure_hunting/files/St.%20Augustine/ "Your membership in the group armchair_treasure_hunting is still pending. You will be able to access this page once the moderator has approved your membership. " Eg, do you know who is the group's moderator? I can't see the pics because I'm not member

I believe Mark Parry is the moderator, who is the person who started this website.  Sorry, I thought everyone had access to it.  It looks like you can automatically subscribe by clicking this link: [email protected] If you are still having problems, I can probably post the pics in this thread.  Also, if anyone else is having a problem getting to the pics, please let me know.  Thanks.

Thanks Eg, I alredy subscribed, but my membership is awaiting approval by the group owner ...

eljayo wrote:: Thanks Eg, I alredy subscribed, but my membership is awaiting approval by the group owner ... I applied yesterday, and now I am able to view the photos. edit:  A big thank you to all (past present and future) who take such great and encompassing photos that make us all feel like we are on site!! I loved the "grow old with me" monumnet (Years pass) That is the corner that I believe the clues lead us to... wish the image could be more helpful - it nailing it to there. The wall on magnolia i still believe it what is referring to as (like moonlight in tear drops)  The teardroped shells imbedded into the rock. The base of the tall tree doesnot have to be a palm tree as the palm tree image is in the definite back ground.  I think it is there to confirm a florida location and to face us towards the water, but not be standing at it. The water in the image could be described as a well, so the photos where you are 'looking straight ahead' would priobably have you standing right on top of the likely burial spot. Thanks again. Hopefully the water there is the only thing that is bitter.

Trohn wrote:: The wall on magnolia i still believe it what is referring to as (like moonlight in tear drops)  The teardroped shells imbedded into the rock. I forgot to mention that.  On the side of the wall facing Magnolia Ave., there are oysters embedded in the wall.  I was not there at night, but I do believe that oysters are luminescent. Also, I did not mention that I believe there is a number hidden in the palm tree leaves in Image 6.  You need the book to see it, and it is right against the border.  It has a "2" in it.  I think it is either 29 or 62.  Sawdusty said that the address for the park was not always 11 Magnolia Ave., but she does not recall the old address.  I do not know what else the number would apply to.  I hope someone else sees the number.

Egbert - I don't see the number, but if you're right it would fit very nicely with the latitude/longitude theme. St. Augustine's latitude is 29.

Looking for the "2" I found this... At the first sight I thought that it was the fountain's kids that was moved. I like more it seemed to be BP hiding the casque... (in a spot where is matching the palm and rock perspective)

That's a good closeup of the palm tree.  You will see that there are 5 palm leaves on the right side.  The "2" is sideways in the 4th leaf from the top.  The other digit is in the 3rd leaf, but you cannot see it clearly in that closeup.

There are some numbers in here that I really can't see.  4 1 1 3 4?

I'm not sure of the current status of this hunt and this post may be for naught-I'm just getting off of the Dar train and decided to have a look at The Secret.  The Florida pic/verse intrigues me simply because I live there.  I've spent the past few days reading most of what has been found regarding p-6/v-9.  It certainly appears that this casque is in the FOY park. I know there is some mystery involving the rock and the palm tree and also the fact that the rock is reflected and the palm is not. While reading this thread, I liked Trohn's post on page 16 regarding the 'shell fountain'.  While looking  at the link to the picture he posted(#75 of 133 in Stercox' album)... The first thing I noticed was the reflection in the water of the fountain and behind it to the right is what looks like a tall palm tree. Perhaps the rock and tree in p-6 are simply showing us that the 'base of the tree' we're looking for can be seen at that same angle behind a "reflection". I know there are other fountains in the park which I'm sure also 'reflect' but I'm not sure if you can see a tall palm at the same angle as the one in pic 75..? It looks as if you could be at such an angle to see the relection in the fountain water and that palm tree is right where it should be in accordance with p-6.

hi soulfly  and everyone yep waiting on dar to start back, checking this out too. why isn't anyone looking across the bay? he used acrostic for seloy, why not the first of the verse, TWN W BAAY,  is there a light house there? i was thinking of someone's reference to virginiia wolf's play.  maybe he was looking across from the bay to the park.  maybe the "tree" is a lamp post. LAMP anagrams to PALM and since he is mounted on the horse, maybe monterey? or mount something (strange tho in florida, i know)

A place to really look at is Ponce De Leon Park in Punta Gorda Florida. One of the users of Twelve mentioned this park some time ago. They said that many of the images that make up the rock were found just outside the park entrance. They said that there was a water channel that ran by the park and big boats would go through and toot at little boats all day long. One thing I saw on there website is a statue of Ponce De Leon that while not on a horse looked very mouch like the one in  the image. It is possible that the horse was sort of a decoy like the wundmill on front of the water tower in the Chicago image.

i think, besides the SELOY,  in the verse, that "near men with wind rose behind bending branches" is another reference to the indians. you know, like bows and arrows............."bending branches"

In some ways this verse fit so well to FOY it was hard to look anywhere else. But that was part of the problem with the FOY solution, we were taking the verses too literal, especially when they are usually written as a riddle. Here is what we have so far, it still needs work though. The first chapter Written in water This is the introduction to the verse and the area. Sand Key County Park sits at the inlet from the Gulf to the bay. Near men With wind rose Sailors. There are boats everywhere here. Behind bending branches And a green picket fence “Bending branches” are palm trees and “picket fence” is there are lots of them in rows. They whole park is lined with palm trees with them. At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking The “tall tree” is the first mention of the dig spot. There is a prominent flag pole on the north side of the park. “The honking” may be Gulf Boulevard, which is nearby. Shell, limestone, silver, salt Shell = beach and sand Limestone = could be the base of the flag Silver = is the flagpole itself Salt = could be water nearby Stars move by day Sails pass by night This was the best part of solving this verse for me. “Stars move by day” is the stars on the American Flag. “Sails pass by night” is of course all those boats going in and out the inlet or along the bay. Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops “Even in darkness” means at night. “moonlight” is light or spotlight. “teardrops” is the shape you get with spotlights pointed into the sky. This is a flag that flies at all times. There are two large spotlights to light up the flag at night. Over the tall grass The flag is raised above the ground on a large round pedestal with steps. Years pass, rain falls. I'm not sure what this one means. We may need feet on the ground. This flag is not a very popular picture on the internet. Aerial photos may hint at plaques on flag base. Does anyone live close to Clearwater? Or does anyone want an excuse to visit Clearwater? I have visited Sand Key Park. From ground level you do get a much better feeling for the “picket fence” (as you look through consecutive rows of palms) than from the aerial photos.

Sorry Sonoran.  Wish you were right as I live in Clearwater.  However, the park didn't open to the public until 1984.

trillseeker wrote:: Sorry Sonoran.  Wish you were right as I live in Clearwater.  However, the park didn't open to the public until 1984. Sonoran, if Thrillseeker is correct, then we are leaking oil all over the place with the "Secret Formula".  Clever way to get everyone to do the research for ya!! Don't give up just yet.

Hey guys! I'm new to this site and I'm really new to the secret. I've read TONS of what you guys have said online about all of the verses and pictures. You all have either confirmed or crushed many of my hunches I had before I realized there was probably a group online dedicated to cracking this case. About V9 and P6... I live in Gainesville, FL so St. Augustine is a day trip to me (not even two hours away). Clearwater would be as well. My wife and I are planning a trip to St. Augestine soon as we are both almost done for the semester. If anyone has anything they want me to look into or document while I'm there, just let me know. I have to be honest about the whole Fountain of Youth idea. I am left nearly speechless by all of the evidence. I mean, you guys have pretty much sold me, except for the fact that this is private land. Even Kit Williams was sure to hide his golden bunny somewhere where someone would receive little or no flack for digging. I realize that it was probably easier to get away with this back in 1982, but I still think that hiding it on private land was risky then. Perhaps it is possible that it is hidden nearby and that the clues left un-deciphered explain where. I'm going to be looking into this. When I first looked at P6 I was convinced that it was directing me to Florida. As for which conquistador it was depicting, I was unsure. I considered Ponce de Leon a little to obvious, so I looked into Hernando de Soto. Both lead me to different parts of Florida, both equally distant/close to me. When I started looking at Ponce De Leon, I first thought about Flagler College as a possible site. It used to be the Ponce de Leon Hotel, so I thought that perhaps that fit. This idea hasn't left me entirely, but I feel that the SELOY clue hidden in V9 is nearly inescapable.

Welcome, cobock1! My only advice is to be careful with the management at the FOY park. Some of our members have built up a relationship with them, and requests or attempts to dig may damage future chances.

I do not intend to dig on any private land, with or without permission. I would gladly join someone else who has authorization on a dig , but I myself will set nothing of the sort up.

We're all positive that this goes with Florida and FOY right?  SELOY confirms it. -regulus

If it isn't the FOY park, then it sure is a string of unimaginable coincidences.

i remember someone said that the last two lines went to a poem titled "To the Lighthouse".  has anyone probed around the lighthouse on anastasia island? the image has an island also. i like the idea of "stars move by day" as in a flag  also, like sonoran said (but i believe in FOY park) . in the image the gem is under the flagpole.

slappybuns wrote:: i remember someone said that the last two lines went to a poem titled "To the Lighthouse".  has anyone probed around the lighthouse on anastasia island? the image has an island also. i like the idea of "stars move by day" as in a flag  also, like sonoran said (but i believe in FOY park) . in the image the gem is under the flagpole. In the image, the jewel is in the stone-face/rock wall. I believe that "like moonlight in tears drops" perfectly describes the wall embedded with thousands of tear dropped shaped shiny sea shells. This type of specific spot is both behind a green fence and beneath bending branches.

Tell me all about FOY park starting with what it stands for. Why do you think this is the place. Assumeing their is some good ideas in this front I think this or Ponce De Leon Park could be the location.

scottrocks7 wrote:: Tell me all about FOY park starting with what it stands for. Why do you think this is the place. Assumeing their is some good ideas in this front I think this or Ponce De Leon Park could be the location. FOY stands for Fountain of Youth.

and that is about as solid as they come. perhaps a little back reading scott

im not to sure about sand key park as it was not open to the public in 82 ie hxxp://www.pinellascounty.org/park/15_sand_key.htm when i lived in tampa, clearwater and st. pete were fav places and severl times we were ran off sand key i moved from tampa in 83 and it was not a public acsses then, there are a cople of beaches in st pete that sorta fit the pic. ill check into it if i find anything ill post

We feel that it is close to FOY park, but not in it.  We think that you guys are taking somethings too literal and some things not literal enough.  It seems almost a given at this point that Verse nine goes with Image six.  In image six there is a rock in water with a tree on it.  Part of the verse does say "At the base of a tall tree".  We don't think this is a coincidence.  Conversely, we feel that people are taking the bending branches and picket fence lines too literally.  We think the bending branches could be that of a creek, and a green picket fence could be interpreted as vegetation on a circular island.  In the image we  also see what we interpret as a rock face looking out at the rock in the water.  When we bought up the FOY park area on GoogleEarth we saw what looked a lot like a face in the land looking out at the island we think the casque is on.  The flag in the image also seems to point out into the creek in the direction of the island.  Also in our looking maybe a little too hard into the image we found what we dubbed a "Salad Tong" in the rock face structure just below the jewel.  This "Salad Tong" looks almost identical to hospital creek.  For these reasons we think the casque is on an island near the FOY park.  We are going out tomorrow morning to check out our theory.  We have been on this track for about a week, but did not want to say anything until we were fully convinced.  Hopefully another casque is about to be unearthed!

I hope so too

good luck cobock1!

good luck indeed cobock!  let us know what you guys find and make sure to take lots of pics...you never know what some of us may see in them that you did not notice.

We got back a few hours ago (would have posted sooner but we were all really tired).  We rent a couple of Kayaks to try to get out to the island, but after getting stuck in mud that came up to our theighs (and running low on time with the Kayaks) we decided to head back and try again later.  We took lots of pictures, at different angles, of the island we think the tressure is on.  We will post those later, but for now this is my very tired update on our attempt.

i know that was disappointing!! can't wait to see your pictures.  sounds like you had some friends along and hopefully they are still friends even after being stuck in the mud and are still wanting to keep hunting. can't wait to hear more!

Even though you came up empty handed, wasn't it exciting just getting out there and hunting where a casque may be?  I know that when we were stuck in N.O. and exploring both the City Park as well as around Jackson Square, my heart was pounding. Speaking of N.O., what are your ideas on that area Cobock?  You havent said a word since posting your secret call for help re: this casque. Good luck on your second outing and I will be sure to say prayers to the mud Gods for you.

Could this in the background left side be considered a "picket fence" ?

There is an actual, real-life "green picket fence" inside FOY.

cobock, i've been thinking u might have something with your idea and your canoe.  if that is the basillica in the pic on p. 204 and 205, he writes (1st line, p. 204): RANGE:  From coast to coast and several hundred yards off shore----....

Apparently there are 'sea oats' everywhere along the eastern coast, especially around Florida.  Ooops, for those that don't know {including myself until not too long ago} sea oats are the 'tall grasses' along the eastern coast.  For example, here is one of mannnnny pics of FOY found on Flickr with sea oats a plenty.  Also in this pic is one tall tree.  Blow it up and you can almost see BP shoveling the last shovelful onto the casque. hxxp://flickr.com/photos/23948039@N02/2338364333/

Another "First Chapter" and this time, it is actually written 'in' water.  The words are written in the water part of the map in this book. hxxp://flickr.com/photos/skinnytie/1865857464/

is that in the discovery globe, fox? i should have read this b4 i commented on image page, lol i change my mind about everything i said over there, hehe i like the discovery globe too! or both! could this be the tall grass: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/skinnytie/1865 ... 924404369/ that guy's pictures are great! i just read where the arrows are made of "reed", which would be a tall grass.... hmmm, maybe just around the indian statue, where is that in the park?

Great find, fox!!! The front-gate "first chapter" was more metaphorically written in water, but this one is more concrete.

reed /rid/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [reed] Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. the straight stalk of any of various tall grasses, esp. of the genera Phragmites and Arundo, growing in marshy places. 2. any of the plants themselves. 3. such stalks or plants collectively. 4. anything made from such a stalk or from something similar, as an arrow .

I was reeding {pun intended } something but now I cant remember what...but the Timicuan indians used a bamboo like reed for something quite often.  Was it the White Drink? Dang, cant remember....

fox wrote:: For example, here is one of mannnnny pics of FOY found on Flickr with sea oats a plenty.  Also in this pic is one tall tree. hxxp://flickr.com/photos/23948039@N02/2338364333/ Also in the pic is a couple piles of rocks

Cormac wrote:: Also in the pic is a couple piles of rocks and a tall tree

cw0909 wrote:: and a tall tree I wonder if this can be viewed from somewhere near a green fence...

I wonder if this can be viewed from somewhere near a green fence... cormac stercox talks about the fences here, the one that needs replacing all the time prob could be seen form there and the small marker hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=759.225

This is why I wish the image and verse combo was it's own topic. I forget what I read elsewhere and get confused too easily feeling stupid today

(Darn...just accidentally deleted this. Will post it back up later...)

the only thing about that whiterabbit is, there is a real green picket fence right at the entrance to the park.........(from pics i've seen and heard everyone mention).....but you did get me thinking about "base" ......fort.......(castillo de san marcos).cannot stop messing with the darn words base of the road is a good idea too could almost make that cannon into the shape of the raven in the image

Unknown: You will see in the pics labeled "looking at branches/fence corner" a green picket fence (painted on other side) perpendicular to the outside wall of the park. Running along the outside of the wall are the bending branches of Magnolia Avenue . Yep, but it sounds like that fence is close. Posted by Egbert (P17): Maybe 'behind the fence' takes you from FOY to Magnolia Ave, and the 'base of the tree' then takes you to the bottom of Magnolia.

Egbert wrote:: There is a portion of the park that is my pick as to where the treasure is.  You will see in the pics labeled "looking at branches/fence corner" a green picket fence (painted on other side) perpendicular to the outside wall of the park. Running along the outside of the wall are the bending branches of Magnolia Avenue.  So, how can the treasure be behind both the branches and the fence? The first chapter Written in water Near men With wind rose Behind bending branches And a green picket fence I think the answer is that we need to cross to the other side of the wall. "The first chapter" is at the entrance. This is the exit. Here it is from the other side. We're now back in Magnolia Ave which runs alongside FOY. I think the white rock in the image represents the section of coastline seen above. Note the rock has a tree next to it which goes down to the ocean. The rock-shape has Magnolia Ave next to it, which goes down towards Ocean Ave. At the base of a tall tree The next line directs us down to the bottom of Magnolia Ave, where we find this cannon. Could this be the location? Shell, limestone, silver, salt I think this is a cannon reference. There are cannon shells. Some cannon balls were made of limestone, and there's also a type of rock called "cannonball limestone" resembling the kind of rock we see in image 6. "Silver salt" - there are various silver salts that are either explosive or used in making explosives; eg silver nitride. Like moonlight in teardrops This is a repetition of the silver salt idea: Like moonlight - silver In teardrops - salt Wondered if this could be one of the adjacent pillars.

i really like that shape for the rock in water in the image being the shape of the land, and ponce de leon is right there by that shape, and you could still hear the honking from the parking lot, it's straght up from the parking lot oops, i was looking at the howard johnson's parking lot or something from google earth, at the base of magnolia street, keep going to the water, and there is ponce de leon hxxp://www.marcraft.net/blog/?p=1025 i like that browning poem there too for years pass..........

slappybuns wrote:: i like that browning poem there too for years pass Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls Years pass - my life with them shall pass And soon, the cricket in the grass Years pass, reign falls 1714, end of the War of the Spanish Succession. "As a result, Philip V remained King of Spain but was removed from the French line of succession." 1 - A 7 - G 14 - N Silver nitride.  ;) Long steel grass The white soldiers pass The light is braying like an ass See the tall Spanish jade With hair black as night-shade (Edith Sitwell)

is seasalty (?) still around?  did anyone dig behind ponce de leon down by the shape of that shore, or down at the end of magnolia street? i remember someone dug inside the park  once, are they still around?  and the guy who got stuck in the boat with his friends?  c'mon guys, i think the shape of that shoreline,  is the shape of the rock and i don't think anyone mentioned that before, just the shape of the park being the shape of the big rock. forest, isn't it time for a florida vacation?

It's always time for a Florida vacation. Bud sadly, like my treasure hunting, my Florida vacations have been strictly armchair lately.

I was looking for a shape in the image which might represent the cannon, and wondered if this could be it:

Sign beside cannon... Like moonlight in teardrops OK, so forget the chemistry - this is probably about magnolia. "Moonlight and magnolia" is a cliche taken from Gone with the Wind... hxxp://greenespace.blogspot.com/2008/05 ... t-and.html hxxp://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... 20magnolia A teardrop is a type of bouquet. Here's an example of a magnolia one. Teardrop bouquet In terms of paint colours, the sky is magnolia central.

Unknown: A star sapphire is a type of sapphire that exhibits a star-like phenomenon known as asterism. Star sapphires contain intersecting needle-like inclusions that cause the appearance of a six-rayed "star"-shaped pattern when viewed with a single overhead light source. Cannon research... The Hadas of Iberia "The first cannon in Europe were probably used in Iberia, during the Reconquista" Over the long grass "Cannon is derived from the Old Italian word cannone, meaning large tube, which came from Latin canna, in turn originating from the kanne - Greek for cane, or reed" The back of a cannon is the "knob", which also means "round hill". This is a star sapphire... ...shown on the vent of the cannon ("wind rose"). But there's a blue glimmer behind the wheel which I interpret as the buried gem, just behind this thing.

My wife and I will be making another trip to St. Augustine again. We go at least twice a year (we live close by) and always take our copy of The Secret with us. We even kayaked out to shoreline around the park and got stuck in the mud there. I have considered magnolia street being the tree mentioned in the poem, but I'm not sure if I ever noticed the cannon at the end of it. I certainly never noticed that the shoreline and position of magnolia matched that of the small rock and tree in the water. I only ever noticed that the large rock matched that of the face-like shoreline (like everyone else here). I don't see why he wouldn't have used the same type of clue twice in the same painting. We'll be going to saint augustine for an extended weekend in a month or two. We'll be sure to check out that area, take lots of pics, evaluate everything that we can. BTW, I have found the image of a cannon in the painting before, but I'm not seeing it right now. I'll have to dig out my notes and get back to you guys on that one.

that is good news cobock1!  can't wait to see the pictures!  you are like a blast of spring air! good luck!  and check behind ponce de leon down by the shore too, okay?

Hey cobock1, excellent news. I recently tried contacting FOY about this. (Just sent you an email on the address in your profile.)

don't forget the browning poem: hxxp://www.marcraft.net/blog/?p=1025 Grow old along with me The best is yet to be Years pass, rain falls it's in the picture right after the cannons or it's just saying "fountain of youth"  at the end of the verse or maybe it's under the street SIGN "magnolia" at the base of the street poke around ponce de leon!

chris, also......don't forget about this slab, from stercox's album and cw0909's overlay on page 18 of "image 6 and other ramblings" hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=759.255 Site of the first fort San Jan De Pinos Built by Pedro Menendez de Aviles A.D. 1565 Destroyed 21 years later By sir Francis Drake 1586 "at the base of a tall tree"..............FORT=BASE.............DE PINOS=PINE, PINE TREE so it would have all of it on that slab

cobock!  where's our pictures???? what happened?  did you have fun?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cobock1 wrote:: We'll be going to saint augustine for an extended weekend in a month or two. Patience Slappy...

lol, i'm sorry!  k, that gives us more time! but i also had another idea for that slab.......... "...f irst fort" --------- base " de pinos "----------- tall tree and "by sir francis DRAKE ".........you can still hear the honking- ---------drake---- male duck all on that one slab!! are you listening cobock?

long shot, still the raven bothers me in the picture, from edgar allan poe: `'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door - Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door; - This it is, and nothing more,' one of the entrances?  if so, close to the parking lot (honking) oh, i didn't know the sundial had a bird on it: (wind rose) hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bohemianism/4275781317/ but mostly i like the indian and ponce, they are big enough to hide behind, and the indian has bow and arrows for bending branches, and his belt looks like the pebbles in the image.  for that matter the whole shape of the park looks like an indian to me (in the image): hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image ... e621212d07 or the planetarium, has the weathervane for "wind"......the go toward magnolia, outside the park hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2Y ... _Augustine look, famous portrait of sir francis drake with teardrop pearl jewel............ hxxp://www.sapphireandsage.com/necklacesmedallion.html hxxp://www.karipearls.com/sir-francis-drake-jewel.html

Has anything been suggested for Ponce de Leon's check jacket...? Wondering about this wall near the cannon at the bottom of Magnolia Ave. (Don't know whether it's been pointed out that he also resembles the character on the front of "The Lost Colony" by Paul Green, as performed at Roanoke's Waterside Theatre.)

i think trohn brought that up before about him being dressed like sir walter raleighs brother, and some one else mentioned the helmet wasn't like the conquistadors but more italian........seems like all the images could relate to any of the others somehow (i'm still confusing myself because of it, just today was thinking about the music notes in the dutch image could go with our verse ten, rhapsodic, bliss, harmony, ecstasy, because i like the dutch for new york ) but i don't recall anyone mentioning his checkered clothes..........i like those checks at the gate! the only spanish fair folk i think is the mira chimera on p. 128.......last lines says "but her dedicated followers sometimes glimpse her still, reflected , if only for a moment, in the smoked windows of a passing limo.. ." and the picture on p. 128 says....." how do i look from the back ?" here's one of those anomalies(?)..."she was said to be lost forever with the passing of long white gloves "...."Lost" could go with the lost colony and "long white gloves", english?  or wedding? and then mentions "when bernice bobbed her hair ( a story about a young girl from wisconsin!--on how to be more attractive (which does fit fountain of youth), i guess the white gloves could go with the limo service? but bernice also has a mythological basis on the constellation Coma Berenices which would lead to the planetarium ! so there we go  :), from behind the wall at the planetarium she was mourned when the movies learned to talk-----------------movie stars! reflected- ---------"staring back at you"

Here's a fair-folk reference for you. "Perhaps the metal-clashing landfall of the Conquistadores took them by surprise, and they fled without taking time to dis enchant their Fountain of Youth." Enchant...Entrance...?

I like your connection of that wall to something in the image. That's what this one needs more of. The ones that have been found so far both had some imagery from the area depicted in some way in the painting. That way one would have more than a vague idea of where to dig once they found the place. That wall is neat. I have stayed at that motel at least a dozen times  (and walked those ground thoroughly) and I've never made the connection between that wall and the conquistador's tunic. Bravo. That could be a pretty legitimate marker.

...yep, clear visual clues seem to be lacking in most of these images. Egbert and Shadowrunner had it easy.  ;) More brainstorming on this area. I don't know how old that motel is, but it looks like it might have a fragment of green picket fence as well. Turning on the spot... From right to left, cannon, red hydrant, wall pillar. The wall has a distinctive curving shape which is perhaps echoed in the rock and clouds of the image. (Wondered about the base of one of the dividing pillars as another possible spot...might be worth counting them down from the main entrance perhaps. Considered the hydrant because of the fountain/rain theme. Looking down it might suggest the "monument" shape on the flag.) By the cannon, the wall bends in and the verge opens out into this area: Here's the other side of that signpost shown above, with a very dodgy 20 in the flag: I'm wondering if the place where Ponce de Leon has planted his flag might be an indicator. There's also this pole opposite the motel...not sure exactly what it is, maybe a telegraph pole or lamp... The cannon is still my favourite...it's just tricky to pinpoint a location there. Maybe there's a detail in the iron railings beside it shown above. The back of a cannon is also called a "cascabel". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascabel (Since this is a Spanish name for a rattlesnake...also small bell / rattle / chilies ...I was going to look for any of those hiding in the pic. I also suspect the horse is hiding something...I'm not aware it's been accounted for yet...? Cascabel seems to be a sleigh-bell . Perhaps the horse's cannon bone .) BP did seem to like that salt cellar, with the repeated suggestion of "silver salt" towards the end of the verse. "Casque", which appears on its sign, and "cascabel", are both thought to be derived from "quassicare", to shake. hxxp://roots.jrobertsons.com/roots/etym ... 45533.html hxxp://www.travellerspoint.com/photos/s ... orderByID/ There's another etymological trail for cask/barrel, which gives us gun barrel... hxxp://www.jstor.org/pss/2909254 Here's a statue of Ponce de Leon "created in New York in 1882 using bronze collected from English canons that were salvaged when the English attacked San Juan in 1792" hxxp://www.puertorico.com/sights/statue-ponce-de-leon/ It's in San Juan where his tomb is, though there's a replica in Saint Augustine (beside the Bridge of Lions , which takes us back to Milwaukee ). hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=19432

More on that cannon bone: "Easily the most crucial bone in a horse's anatomy, the cannon bone is exposed to the greatest amount of stress when a horse is being worked hard. On a horse there isn't a very big support system around the cannon bone. The cannon bone is the large bone in the lower leg which runs from the knee down to the ankle. Its only support comes from the tendons linking it to the knee and ankle bones and a covering of skin. There are no muscles linked to the cannon bone. Hence it is crucial for the horse to have a well developed strong cannon bone to support its large frame." hxxp://www.helium.com/items/617422-hors ... annon-bone

There you go! Good find. I had considered the hydrant for the rain/water reference, but dismissed it. But looking at that hydrant from the top it is unmistakably similar to the image on the flag. I was still assuming that the image on the flag must be indicating the obelisk marker in the FOY park, but  I don't know how right that is. Its definitely one of the only obviously unusual shapes in the painting. The two that have been solved had these types of unusual shapes in them. In the Grant Park one there is the image of the the fence posts that showed where to dig. Why couldn't the clue in this image lead us to an area with a fire hydrant? I'm glad there is someone else looking outside of the box, or the FOY park. In the newspaper article about the first casque that was found it says that BP went into grant park early in the morning dressed like a worker, or something. I doubt he went into the FOY park during the day and started digging, and I doubt he hopped the fence during the evening or early morning. This was a privately owned attraction even in the 70s and 80s. That's why I've always had a hard time swallowing the idea that it's buried in FOY, but right outside of it, in an area like this. I'd believe that.

don't forget the planetarium looks like that from above too! the obelisk: hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM42 ... gustine_FL from stercox's album: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/21 ... 0493ZorICN hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/23 ... 0493xCgZsF hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/20 ... 0493jDJLJh he has this pole right at the ticket booth which is near the train station and the parking lot...honking? the shape of the squiggly lines under the gem in the image?: t he duck and goose pond----------this looks like the squiggly lines hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/25 ... 0493ONVRAt hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/22 ... 0493AmpdBy or these: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/26 ... 0493hMaSmh hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493izKsqH hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/20 ... 0493qzPJfr doesn't this look like the tree? hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/23 ... 0493RnGzaK isn't Easter decided by the moon? and the tears "Jesus wept" hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493yoQUBE but it looks like ponce has a circle and a square too, and a pole: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493OYLOoL hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/22 ... 0493zsQoic hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/25 ... 0493fGFMhb s tercox's map with the green picket fences: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493UGsSsv looks like the seloy marker and springhouse are straight up from the parking lot and the green picket fence, right around there which would make sense for "years pass, rain falls", close to the real fountain of youth hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/23 ... 0493BNCqVC also wanted to mention these urns, as they mention 300 years and they catch the rain fall, plus keats'grave " written in water " and he wrote " ode to a grecian urn" hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/28 ... 0493ZSVEDk guess i shoulda just said check out stercox's album  :)

Just a follow-up thought on the horse. The bell-shape or cascabel at the back of a cannon is for attaching ropes (to control the recoil), which drew my attention to the horse's muzzle. Here's the hydrant and cannon: If we say the flag circle is the hydrant, and the horse's muzzle is the cannon, that might put the casque (which means "helmet") by the wall. (It has a Sapphire glint to it.) Here's another pic of the wall to illustrate what I meant about the curving shape being suggested in different parts of this image. I like the idea of one of those separating pillars as it would provide a precise spot. Midway between the cannon and the hydrant as shown above looks like the last one. Needs more corroboration though. Wall peaks represented by facial features. Below the eyebrow...? Brow of a hill...? There's a kind of parallel in the position of the flag symbol relative to the face. I currently interpret all this as a close-up clue for the wall though. The Hadas of Iberia Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower (Those two final green stems, under the final rocky bump, at the bottom right of the pic, right of the cross shown above. An 11...? 11 pillars...? Or perhaps suggesting the shape of the dividing column; example shown below it.) Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls The last line has been interpreted as a cryptic reference to FOY. (Youth being the years that pass, the fountain the rain that falls.) Taking the grassy wall in the image as the outside of FOY, then FOY lies over the tall grass; over the wall.

the image (the whole image 6) is the same shape as the park so where the gem is in the image, shouldn't that be where it is in the park? so if the flag is the obelisk, you'd go straight down to it (the gem), (i think) image 6--same shape as this (the whole thing): hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493UGsSsv looking closely at the image, i  see  two ducks slanted diagonally to the right, right above the gem, do you guys see it? i really really do see ducks i see two brown ducks right above the gem  and to the right, i see beaks and everything, and normally i wouldn't have said i see stuff in the rocks, except that the duck pond is close to the seloy marker and those squiggly lines under the gem look like the duck pond! hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/25 ... 0493ONVRAt i can't upload any pics, it always says "upload folder is full"..........

maltedfalcon wrote:: ...walls in St. Augustine, FL are made of crushed oyster shells and the mortar was made of salt, water and lime... I've only just caught up with these oyster-wall clues. (Thought the texture looked odd but hadn't realised what it was.) Like moonlight in teardrops "Ancient stories tell of how the Arabs had a superstition that pearls are dewdrops filled with moonlight, which fall into the sea and are swallowed by the oysters." hxxp://hubpages.com/hub/Dew-Drops-Filled-With-Moonlight "The wall itself captured my attention. Short on natural building supplies, and long on oysters, the original streets of St Augustine and many fences were created from oyster shells - and known as Taby. The textured background is from the wall by the Fountain of Youth, thickly encrusted with the shells." hxxp://www.thelensflare.com/gallery/p_t ... _36487.php

u mentioning those last two flowers as 11 made me think of the address to FOY  11 magnolia street (which aren't magnolias, but oak trees). but also, one of stercox's pictures showed the door to the springhouse with one of the flowers.

slappybuns wrote:: u mentioning those last two flowers as 11 made me think of the address to FOY  11 magnolia street Ah, OK. I like that. (I've been trying to count the total number of those dividing pillars in the wall but it's tricky to do via Google maps.)

I'll count those pillars for you when I find the time to get to st. augustine one of these weekends. Slappy, trust me. I've got Stercox's entire album saved to hardrive and printed out in hardcopy. There are plenty of references to the park, I'm just looking for more concrete images in the painting that JJP would have put in there from photographs given to him of the area by BP. There are several spots within the park I think it could be. But I'd like to look right outside the park a little bit too as, like I have said several times on here over the past several years, I'm not convinced that BP would have buried the casque directly in the FOY park, even if security may have been a little lacking 30 years ago (or now). Obviously he was pointing to the park. The shape of the park is also the rough shape of the rock in the painting. Remember, JJP would have like copy of a Map to go on when painting, not google earth. With that in mind it is just as fair of an assumption to assume that the location of the jewel in the rock represents the casque location as anything else. I have followed that way of thinking on one of my earlier visits to collect pictures and investigate, but it still restricts us to the park. I need to get a new album up with my pics. Not sure if my Flickr still has my FOY photos. Also, that flower is likely the aster. It grows in the tall grasses that make up the Salt Marshes of florida. It is also the state flower and the birth flower of the 9th month of the year. The saphire is also the birth gem of september. I have also mentioned this before in the thread. BP and JJP seem to have doen this in each of the pictures though. But as far as I know no one has come up with a convincing reason for the connection yet. Months, flowers, gems. Was that BPs way of having fun with us or is there a greater meaning to each individual picture/verse combination.

cobock i just get excited when someone is going hunting, and just want to refresh with all the good stuff in these threads.  maybe something we say, if we say it a little differently  will hit you when u get there.  i just want you to find one. i would be really scared to go digging in the park, and it would be great if it was outside the wall (by the planetarium ).........but if it isn't (just in case)....maybe by the duck pond i really have been outlining so many ducks in this image, but i can't upload anything for some reason (will message cthree later and see if she can help) i would like for you to see them and also keep in mind those tinajones urns, because it mentions "years"  and "rainfall"  and some are shaped like teardrops, ok? scroll down til after the seloy marker for the teardrop urn: hxxp://buddventures.blogspot.com/2008_0 ... chive.html hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/42182237@N08/4114310140/ and the squiggly lines at the duck pond: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/pritheworld/4712226344/ i'm just afraid it is inside the park but maybe not, maybe that line about "reflection in a passing limo"  means the parking lot  (and the honking) hoping for the best!

cobock1 wrote:: Also, that flower is likely the aster. It grows in the tall grasses that make up the Salt Marshes of florida. It is also the state flower and the birth flower of the 9th month of the year. The saphire is also the birth gem of september. I have also mentioned this before in the thread. BP and JJP seem to have doen this in each of the pictures though. But as far as I know no one has come up with a convincing reason for the connection yet. Months, flowers, gems. Was that BPs way of having fun with us or is there a greater meaning to each individual picture/verse combination. Good question. I'm sure these have a place in the puzzles, such as helping to match images/verses/places. By cross-referencing the gems/flowers/months in the images with the litany, you can also find a nationality of course. And although there's a few muddled references in there (like the blue "amethyst" in the Milwaukee pic) it seems to have been a fairly reliable guide. (These suggestions are just speculative until a casque is found, but for instance, Marigold, Mary's Gold, ties in with City of Mary for Montreal, as do the Dutch. Gladiolus ties in with gladiator/Roman coliseum for Boston, and the library where the trail starts is Italianate. Chrysanthemum seems to go with with the suggested image of the Chrysler building in image 12. Jackson of New Orleans' Jackson Square connects with the mechanical Turk, Turkey lending its name to Turquoise, and "New Orleans" comes from the French, etc.) Since the gem and flower are determined by the month, I wouldn't necessarily expect all three to be relevant to a particular puzzle, but I would imagine that at least one of them would crop up somewhere. Is the aster the state flower of Florida...? I can only find orange blossom, though if the aster is/was also known as the state flower that would be enough to account for it. The Sapphire in the image seems to have a definite six-pointed star in it. "A star sapphire is a type of sapphire that exhibits a star-like phenomenon known as asterism . Star sapphires contain intersecting needle-like inclusions (often the mineral rutile, a mineral composed primarily of titanium dioxide) that cause the appearance of a six-rayed star-shaped pattern when viewed with a single overhead light source." Aster, the flower, also means star, and the verse has the line: "Stars move by day". The litany identifies the Sapphire as the Spanish gem. So for instance, in this case the month/star/flower attribution could be a pointer that this verse and image are the Spanish puzzle. Also ties in with the planetarium clue.

You are forgetting the two solves. The flower in Image 4, the Cleveland solve, is a daffodil. The casque was found in the Greek cultural gardens. Daffodils are not "associated" with Greece in any particular way, nor with Cleveland in any way, nor is GREECE associated in more than a peripheral way with Cleveland. Unless your system is consistent, it's not likely that it's valid. You can say the same thing about the Chicago solve. The emerald is associated with Ireland, and Chicago does have a large Irish heritage--but it's not the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of the Irish in America. And what either Ireland or emeralds would have to do with Lily-of-the-Valley, I can't even begin to surmise. Whiterabbit, please don't take offense at this--it's not meant to be a criticism--but you seem to take great delight in drawing parallels between things that may or may not need parallels drawn between them. Most of your associations are very broad-based. There's nothing wrong with brainstorming, but none of these broad similarities are leading anywhere. I haven't said anything up until now, because I kept waiting for your methods to reap some  reward--but I don't think you're getting anywhere we haven't already been. I'm not saying you should stop, but perhaps a little more hard research on those things we've already ferretted out might be more helpful. There really is little doubt that the location suggested by image 2 is Charleston, or the one in Image 3 is Roanoke Island, 7 is New Orleans, 8 is Houston, 10 is Milwaukee, 12 New York. Very solid confirmers have been uncovered for these images and they match the type of solid confirmers in the two that were solved. In the Cleveland image, the big 'confirmer' was the silhouette of the Terminal Tower. In Chicago's image, it was the water tower. In other images, there are definite pieces that point to definite locations--things that have already been found. The same can be said of some of the verses. Houston's verse (1) describes the location as the Children's Zoo fairly accurately. There seems to be no real reason to continue to search for that one, since the entire zoo has been bulldozed over; it will probably never be found now. That doesn't mean it's somewhere else. As I said, I'm not criticising but there's a lot of hair-splitting lately. Maybe stepping back to see a bigger picture (so to speak) wouldn't be amiss.

shecrab wrote:: As I said, I'm not criticising but there's a lot of hair-splitting lately. Maybe stepping back to see a bigger picture (so to speak) wouldn't be amiss.

but guys, whiterabbit said the same thing  by matching the  "flower/month/gem"  with the litany, she just says it longer  :) but that's a good thing, she makes me look at things differently. isn't that what we need?! and sometimes she follows a path that we haven't been down.  she does a lot more research than i do, mine is so cursory i know i'm missing things. seems to me now, we need to take that piece of land that whiterabbit found matched the coast line and angle it and reflect it or mirror it til we can aim it to where it would be in the park or street maybe near those checkered bricks whiterabbit found if someone has the skills to do that please post it okay! and she made me look again at the gem, since that is all that is definite inside the park shape (besides my ducks, lol ) and the flowers and green picket fence.  so now i have to go back thru stercox's album.  it is reminding me of the door at the springhouse. and look at this star shape in front of the springhouse: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/26 ... 0493HtpUoy and the flower at the planetarium: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/24 ... 0493XpyyYL

(Thanks Slappy, and no offence taken Shecrab...I do too much thinking out loud. I agree with all the general locations that y'all have discovered, and lately I've been concerned mainly with trying to find clues for an exact position - somewhere you can say: "dig here" - and trying to track down people who might be willing to investigate these. Like Slappy, I probably let my enthusiasm run away a little when Cobock mentioned a forthcoming visit. Re: the two solves, although there's much to be learned from them, I don't think the approach to the other puzzles should necessarily be limited to what was used there, which hasn't yet proved sufficient. The Chicago find needed help from BP to locate the exact spot, and the correct interpretation of the verse didn't emerge until after it had been dug up, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of other overlooked aspects to either of these.) (PS just for the record, I'm a boy-rabbit.)  ;)

Everyone understands Whiterabbit, that's why no one means to be offensive. But I have discovered from long late night discussions with my treasure hunting friends it is best to remember two things when solving these. Stand back every once and a while and look at picture as a whole, it keeps you from going on wild tangents. And also, remember that BP didn't have the internet or google at his disposal the way we do today when he hid these in 1980/81. He also knew that the readers of his book didn't have anything like that as well. I don't think  he would use obscure references to literature or anything like that. He was a well read man, i'm sure and does make some. The New Orleans verse for example has an obvious and direct quote to at least one famous piece of literature. But I think any such references or clues would be from famous or commonly known works. I think the "writ in water" on Keats' grave is along the lines of one that my be something BP intended. But don't get too carried away with google searching.

oh no, i'm sorry mr rabbit  :-[ cobock, i'm glad you're keeping keats in mind, because even tho his grave say's  "writ in water" and not "written", he did write "ode to a grecian urn". the words "written in water" aren't at the park,  right?  so that has to be a big  clue.... and in that poem of keats........he's talking to the urn and saying how they ( the people on the urn and the trees), will never die or grow old (fountain of youth), it will always be "SPRING" and the lovers " for ever young" so it all ties in== keats, fountain of youth, grecian urn-- ---------------but really one of the spanish urns i didn't know a goose pen was right there by the planetarium (thanks stercox ) hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/283765 ... 0493UOGQqw mr rabbit, you'll like this one........i keep seeing it in my head--------------bending branches----------------benches

Unknown: As he lay on his deathbed (in lodgings near the Spanish Steps) and listened to the distant fountains, lines from Philaster (by the seventeenth-century playwrights Beaumont and Fletcher) came to mind: "All your better deeds/Shall be in water writ." ...sheesh, I'm trying hard not to Google stuff, but it's like offering a slug of whisky to a drunk...

Slappy you bring up a very good point, and I'm also glad, WB you aren't offended by my comments. Here's the thing: I appreciate all the associations, but what I was trying to say in more words than were probably necessary was that the actual solutions were much SIMPLER and more straightforward. I don't think a lot of oblique references went into these. Only some very cleverly disguised locations and riddles that proved to be harder than originally thought for one main reason:  too much time has passed and too much has changed.  For instance, I truly believe that the casque in Boston was hidden in Copley Square, but most of that has been re-designed, cemented over and altered to make a find there feasible. And we all know what happened in Houston to the zoo. And if he really buried that casque in the sand in Charleston on White point, then it's probably long gone just from erosion and the tides. But keep at it...no reason not to use it as a good mental exercise. And surfing all over the web certainly has its advantages later--you learn a lot, and it's useful in other ways.  PS: See my notes again in the Verse 6 thread.

okay, i'll do it for you, whiterabbit, lol yeah, i had read where keats got it, but taking it to the play would have missed my point about "for ever young" and the springhouse  :P and also because the reference then leads to shakespeare and the bible and on and on........... but i will say: fletcher= arrows, and beaumont=bow-man --------------minus the t which i like since the whole image looks like an indian to me and with the seloy clue....... but then the whole meaning of "written in water" is time is "fleet" ing, everything passes, nothing is permanent.....

Pretty sure "written in water" is just a reference to the FOY. The full phrase is "The first chapter / Written in water." The sign on the gatepost leading into the FOY park reads "Enter / The first chapter / Our U.S. history / The discovery," and the whole place is pretty much about water (i.e., the FOY).

thanks forest you think it's somewhere near the planetarium forest? does anyone remember where the picture of ponce de leon smoking the clay pipes are?  is it in the First Encounters building? i've looked thru 14 pages of pics on flickr and can't find it.. does anyone remember? just wondered why BP said "smoked windows of a passing limo"..............i know, probably not important, it's just bugging me or smoked duck or maybe that copper caldron for cooking the duck but probably just saying near the road so you could see the passing cars but our tinajones urns are fire baked! same as smoked, rain falls, years pass (rainwater and 800 years), and keats : hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/28 ... 0493ZSVEDk what do you guys think?

cobock1 wrote:: Stand back every once and a while and look at picture as a whole forest_blight wrote:: Pretty sure "written in water" is just a reference to the FOY cobock1 wrote:: I had considered the hydrant for the rain/water reference...Its definitely one of the only obviously unusual shapes in the painting. OK, I've been taking your advice and trying to spot any significance in the overall image. It's a horse on a hill. I agree it fits FOY perfectly, water and all. But it's a curious phrase, and its resemblance to Keats' epitaph warrants a closer look. I was remembering another of Keats' most famous poems, "Ode to a Nightingale", thought to have been written at a historic pub called Spaniards Inn. It refers to the Hippocrene, a fountain struck open by Pegasus on Mount Helicon. (The name means "horse's fountain".) ...if it is the hydrant, it's both prominent and neatly disguised, and ties in with the overall fountain theme. Mind you don't hit a main.

one thing that goes with the fire hydrant is (mira chimera) "paint their extremities fire engine red" (p. 129) and on p. 128   the fairy is pulling on her hose.............and it could be shaped like a fire hose or maybe the waves in the planetarium extremities= end, boundary or termination......(my stop sign, which would be red also, or at the end of the park ) another anomaly is mira chimera is a "winged fairy of the spanish hadas, but it's area of origin is  "Greek  (which would tie into the Ode to a Grecian Urn) but i finally printed out the image, flipped one, folded it straight down from the flagpole, put together the smaller sides of the folds, flip it(ponce will be upside down but you dont see him anyway 'cause he's on the other side of the fold, and you only see the two horse heads sticking out, one to the left and one to the right, upside down of course), anyway i can see two cars like in a parking lot, a path going up, i think it's the ticket booth because it looks like it's thatched.  the jewel looks like it would still be near the parking lot. you know what, one car is going one way and the other car is turned the other (probably 'cause of mirroring) but it also looks like the shape of a stop sign (almost) so is that fire hydrant close to the stop sign? but on the other hand, if you look at the big picture, the outer part, kindof has the shape of this fountain: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bobindrums/1675488811/ but it could  be the obelisk shape which would bring the picture to  simple terms.........ponce landing on the coast, and the flowers are having "festival of flowers" for easter.......hmm, the litany says, sapphire, shy as a wild field flower........easter? in this vicinity-------near but then, if you flip it (back with horse heads right side up)  looks like a big peacock  head  :) which i like, because of all the teardrops in a peacock feather, goes with my duck pond ,  and of course "winged fairy" (and if you turn it over it looks like a peacock too, the big folds) okay guys, i know i'm not good at this but i feel we have to mirror this somehow and maybe i'm not flipping it right, maybe has to be several flips, on p. 129 it say's...."tape it down, hang it out, chop it off, curl it up, straighten it out......" "commands one decade" " then the next".........some kind of measurement? wherever it is, make you sure you look behind it, because it says  "how do I look from the back?" and the skirt, kind of has that star shape on the hem  (p. 128)

i think it is showing the cask when you put the two pieces of the little island or reflected rock together i went with the angle of the rock up to the gem on the regular image and the mirrored image and, if you use the clouds as part of the fountain, it is looking like that fountain again, because it seems to have those step ups: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bobindrums/1675488811/

(Slappy's images)

thank you whiterabbit!! the first one is the cars, from bottom of the paper go up about 3 1/4 inches, you'll see this lighter octagon ( almost)  shape, and a matchbox car will be one on left of fold and one on right side, right above the lighter spot. also, doesn't the outside shape look like that fountain? and if you fold it in half (where those dark edges start, it will look even more like that fountain. the next one looks like the cask to me, it's flipped upside down, the next picture is the cask right side up doesn't that look like the cask to you guys?? here's the chicago cask: hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_080983a.jpg

Whoaaaaaaa Nellie.....wait a darn minute. This can't be. No matter what happens when you mirror these images, remember one thing: these were PAINTINGS. Made individually, without any knowledge of where the casque was. There was no digital manipulation, no trickery. Preiss gave JPP photographs of objects for him to "insert" into his paintings, and also gave him a general theme. There's no way they could have been created with these little tricks. Had they been created on the 'puter, this might have been a factor, but they weren't.

this wouldn't have to be a trick, you could use mirrors. mira chimera (on the wall)---winged spanish hadas reflection all that is in the image i used the computer because i didn't have a big enough mirror you don't think that looks like the cask ck?

i'm sorry, i was rushed last night.  BP was given pictures of the site where the cask was hidden.  All JJp had to do was paint half of any object in the pictures he was given, and then someone could use a mirror to see the other half.  this is a treasure book, with 12 different riddles.  i think using a mirror would be an easy way to hide objects in a painting used for a  treasure hunt. you could put a mirror on the page, there is no trick to it one reason i printed out a mirrored image was so i could post to you guys what i saw, it is just two folds -----------------------or 2 placements of the mirror on your page of the book 1. straight down from the flag-----------i looked at the left side instead of the right side of the fold 2. straight from the gem to the "reflected" island i'm not saying do this for the other  images, i think they will be different.  but this image definitely is saying "reflection",  and what better way than with a mirror i can't believe no one thinks this is possible or takes it serious. using a mirror to find hidden objects in a painting is not a new thing, it's been done for centuries, look here under anamorphosis: hxxp://www.ehow.com/list_6819592_techni ... g-art.html umm,   my folds could be wrong, someone might know of a better way to angle the mirror (or fold if you print out a mirrored image), i'm just saying i think this is the method for this image.  and i hope cobock will keep an eye out for these shapes while he is there  :) and maybe you just to need to mirror once,  the reflected island (cask) to the gem-----the one i did with the cask at the top, then flipped to show at the bottom right now, i don't even think it's the fountain,  because with the picture whiterabbit posted for me, with the cask up at the top, if you follow it down, it is inside one of the regular shaped tinajones urns, you can see parking lot or a path, the cars, gates, and the urn, i think it is showing both the parking lot and the entrance from magnolia.  wonder if he would have just put it down inside the urn?

shecrab wrote:: ...without any knowledge of where the casque was... Unknown: "Byron's kind of like a little mad genius," Palencar says. "He travelled the country picking places. Then he'd fed-ex me these dossiers with obscure photos and notes." Palencar came up with the idea of burying a casque in the Greek Cultural Garden. "We were kind of brainstorming places," Palencar remembers. "I told Byron, I think I have a good spot." He took Preiss out to the garden and then stood lookout while Preiss buried the casque. People keep saying this, but the only information I've come across about Palencar's involvement is this excerpt I recently quoted from one of the newspaper articles, and which indicates that he thought of at least one of the locations himself. Is there any evidence that Palencar didn't know where the casques were buried? The idea of creating a picture-based puzzle without the artist knowing the answer seems bizarre.

According to other information I had about this hunt, Palencar was only able to suggest the Greek Cultural gardens because he is a resident of the area (or was.) He is from Fairview Park, Ohio, not far from the Gardens. The other casques were buried without any knowledge on his part. And Slappy, as much as it sounds like it would work, it just wouldn't work to paint "half" of something and then expect people to use a mirror to find the other half. For one thing, the paintings done were larger than the book format. For another, they were done in mixed media: pastels, watercolors, pencil and paint. The way artists paint would not make it easy to plan for that sort of use of a mirror--not without digital involvement right off the bat (i.e., being able to "mirror" the result so one could see what it was that was needed to be painted. I urge you again to look at the ones that were solved. This ought to be the benchmark for the search on the other images. I don't think such obscure methods are necessary. You must remember that it's been 30 years since these casques were buried! So much has changed--a tree can grow several dozen feet in that time, bushes die, hills appear and disappear, paving is done or removed--landmarks shift and change. Also remember that Preiss did not expect this hunt to EVER last this long. He expected the casques to be found rather quickly. That would preclude hiding them so well, or with such difficulty that one would need extra objects like mirrors to find them.

shecrab wrote:: The other casques were buried without any knowledge on his part. I still don't know where this idea that JJP knew nothing about the locations came from, though I guess at the end of the day it probably makes no difference. Who knows what Byron asked him to include in the pictures, or in what way.

I have to agree with shecrab.  Of course we may be wrong...that is always an option....but I think we are straying away from what worked because we have hit a brick wall .  1. yes, bp had never imagined that this hunt would go on for so long. The Chicago casque was found in a matter of a couple months....long before Google Earth, the internet, mathematical computer programs counting every 3rd letter from every 16th word beginning with the letter t, etc.  It was found with an I, a V and possibly a little bit of library time.  2. JJP did not know where the casques were hidden.  He was given pics of what was nearby and he created the Images. I believe that we are so close to finding most of the rest of the casques...we just need that final piece to the puzzle. I believe we will find a casque in: Milwaukee, San Francisco, Boston, E Gardens, Houston, Charleston, in or around FOY, New Orleans, New York , and 1 somewhere in Canada. That list accounts for EVERY remaining casque out there.  Let's just put our heads together and focus on the obvious.

geez you guys are tough! i really don't know how an artist would do it and then it still be recognizable when it is printed, especially before computers.  but i know there have always been riddles and reversed images in books since i can remember. and guys, Mira Chimera is the only Spanish fair folk.  MIRROR Chimera. p. 129  "She can ONLY be seen in a MIRROR" "may be as close as your vanity table" okay.........that just gave me an idea..........maybe it is " YOU ".............somewhere behind the letters of  "fountain of YOU th" still, i'm gonna keep using a mirror because there are so many words that suggest it such as "command, instructs, tape, operating, perform any of these"

Fox, I agree. We've just gotten way off track here. Yes, we hit walls. In almost everything. I can't say I'm surprised at that--like I said, it's been 30 years. There is so much that is different now. And it's so easy to think that this hunt would be like other hunts out there--but you must remember that other hunts are based mostly on internet searches, finds, research, other puzzles available--this hunt wasn't. It was simple. Almost elementary, actually. Pictures and riddles. No trickery. Although yes, Slappy, it might have been possible to use mirrors, I don't think they were used; not if you're asking a renowned painter to make your images. He just wouldn't use something like that. His website shows a lot of his work--it's all very surreal, dreamy, symbolic--he is known for exactly that sort of thing. In fact, he might even have had the Chicago image already painted long before Preiss had the idea for the hunt--it's the only one of the Secret images that appears on his website as a standalone painting (it's called "Castle Hat".) And how much more likely is it that he simple incorporated the images he was sent on polaroids into his art work? HIGHLY LIKELY. If he had had a computer or Google, or satellite pics, or even a bunch of puzzle hunts instead of just the one--Masquerade--to pull from, then perhaps I would agree that mirrors might be a factor--but not in this instance. The only hunt out there that had ever captured the attention of the public was Masquerade, and it was a hunt like this one: riddled text, surreal paintings. So it's not that I don't think it was possible, I just don't think it was at all likely given when this was put together. Also remember that the text of the book--the story of all those "fair folk" was done separately and is not affiliated with the buried treasures at all, no matter how much coincidental material you find.

he might not have wrote the part about the "fair folks"  but i'm sure he read them and probably added to them.  He might have even written the "spotter's tips". and in the "spotter's tips"  it  says "dedicated followers" dedicated can mean  "address" follower can mean "behind" and the pic says "how do i look from behind?" i know that could mean anything, behind the "fountain of youth sign"?  behind the fountain of youth itself (the spring house) ?  or behind the words "11 magnolia avenue" or #10 magnolia, because when u put the cask together it makes a #10

Unknown: That list accounts for EVERY remaining casque out there.  Let's just put our heads together  and focus on the obvious. Fox said: I have tried. I posted several things about v. 2 and New Orleans lately. They have gotten absolutely not one single response.

I like this verse as a pairing with image 12. It has the word picket in it.

shecrab wrote:: Whiterabbit...perhaps a little more hard research on those things we've already ferreted out might be more helpful. There really is little doubt that the location suggested by image 2 is Charleston, or the one in Image 3 is Roanoke Island, 7 is New Orleans, 8 is Houston, 10 is Milwaukee, 12 New York. Very solid confirmers have been uncovered for these images and they match the type of solid confirmers in the two that were solved. In the Cleveland image, the big confirmer was the silhouette of the Terminal Tower. In Chicago's image, it was the water tower. In other images, there are definite pieces that point to definite locations - things that have already been found. The same can be said of some of the verses. I think Shecrab has a point here. It would take something fairly convincing to lead things away from choices like NY / I12...

(1)  The first chapter = implies other chapters follow, George Pickett as chapter 1, his son who died at age 32 of Tuberculosis is the next chapter. (2)  Written in water = Keats epitaph, who also died of Tuberculosis. (3)  Near men = "close quarters" as 'near' and officers as men = Officers Quarters (4)  With wind rose (14)  Over the tall grass (6)  And a green picket fence (7)  At the base of a tall tree (8)  You can still hear the honking (9)  Shell, limestone, silver, salt = Cattle Point Light House (10)  Stars move by day = flag and mast by the Officer's Quarters bldg.. (11)  Sails pass by night (12)  Even in darkness (13)  Like moonlight in teardrops (5)  Behind bending branches (15)  Years pass, rain falls. When I swap line 5 with line 14 I get "SELBY" instead of SELOY.  The verse almost seems improved with "rose" preceding "over".  William SELBY Harney is responsible for sending George Pickett and his men to Washington in the first place.

Quick recap: Seloy is the Indian village where Florida's Fountain of Youth was built. It has a sign which says: "The First Chapter". Image 6 resembles its statue of Ponce de Leon. It had geese and a green picket fence. It also has a "silver salt" cellar connected with Ponce de Leon, with a sign describing it as a "casque" - an unusual word that BP uses for the treasure boxes. The Fountain of Youth is mentioned in the introduction.

There were so many confirmers for Florida's Fountain of Youth park that it was almost a shoo-in. The problem wasn't that it couldn't be pinpointed to that location, it was that no one could dig there because the owners were not enthusiastic about someone coming in and digging in their park.  I, for one, would be very hard-pressed to believe in any alternative location for this image and verse.

Over the tall grass Myrtle Ave... Myrtle grass ...? Also known as Sweet Flag.

"With wind rose" seems to fit the Cattle Point Lighthouse which has been primarily a radio compass beacon which allows ships to pinpoint position in the most dense fog.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Quick recap: Seloy is the Indian village where Florida's Fountain of Youth was built. It has a sign which says: "The First Chapter". Image 6 resembles its statue of Ponce de Leon. It had geese and a green picket fence. It also has a "silver salt" cellar connected with Ponce de Leon, with a sign describing it as a "casque" - an unusual word that BP uses for the treasure boxes. The Fountain of Youth is mentioned in the introduction.

I recognize the SELOY theory, but it only holds based on underpinnings such as assuming Preiss gave us a perfectly ordered anacrostic in verse; if the anacrostic were jumbled just slightly it would fit really well with the O as a B and SELBY has meets a comfortable and straightforwards criteria.  All Preiss had to ask was 'why was Pickett in San Juan Island?' A: because Selby Harney dispatched him there on a fortification mission...that resulted in a *cough* fornification with Morning Mist.  All this being pre-Sumpter of course.

erex: I understand you want to uncover something here, but ask yourself this question: why? Why would BP want the verses mixed up? What purpose would it serve, first of all, and if that were true, one might just make anything one wanted to out of the lines! I mean, if we allow a mass reordering of the lines of the verses, then you could spell just about anything from their first letters--and that just would not be fair. Not to mention that re-ordering the lines to get the acrostic you want makes the verse say something other than what it intends. Do it in this verse, and you'd pretty much have to allow it in all the other verses--and though re-ordering the lines in this one may not actually hurt the location information, it certainly would in other verses. I strongly caution you against trying to fit the verse to your idea by chopping it up and rearranging it--from the solves we know, that's just not how this hunt was structured.

Why? is the question all right.  I think the two solves so far -and I'm working to better understand them still- show us distinctly different approaches while being similar in a flexible context.  I'm not attempting to mix verses, only to mix lines in one particular verse.  The basis for my doing so is no stronger or weaker than the arguement to take an acrostic at face value.  Evidence that Preiss used American Indian material doesn't mean he will always use it to lead us to a casque.  I'm merely doubtful on the basis that I didn't find a conquistidor anywhere near the setting of P6.  I found a heavy custom crafted iron chain with links shaped like a conquistador's helmet and I found a Don Quixote reference in an Associated Press article from 1979 that may work into this, but that is all.  Trust me, ther is no Ponce in this setting.  Now I have my guard up about some of the tricks Preiss has pulled from his hat.  He wants us to think Florida with P6.  He wants us to pair with V9 with SELOY. (Edit: continued) The artifice of the SELOY acrostic identifies with V12's usage of single letter clues M B L and R.  Priess must've thought "I'll give them this simple one-letter identifier just to warm them up for what I've got planned for Verse 9...hee hee," okay maybe he didn't hee hee, but even if he didn't plan it, I'm just bent against the idea of SELOY for the reason that it doesn't fit at all with the San Juan Island in Washington idea. I asked myself, why are we just taking the SELOY letters...wouldn't be cooler to use all the lines for the acrostic: TWNWBAAYSSSELOY. TO NW WA SAYS SELBY = "to Northwest Washington says Selby."  William Selby Harney sends George E. Pickett and company to Northwest Washington's San Juan Island.  This rearrangement of the acrostic doesn't mean we have to alter the intention of the verse.  Most of it looks one-liner-ish anyways.

New ordering of lines to Verse 9 w/ interpretation- The first chapter - the first fraternity (crossover to the Boston casque) Over the tall grass - "over" is a clue to radio transmission protocol and the site I am considering is a field of tall grass Near men - men close together would point to the barracks in this setting With wind rose - is a radio compass Written in water - message in waves (supports the radio compass idea) At the base of a tall tree - "base" as in military outpost, a tree near it Stars move by day - flagpole with US flag at site And a green picket fence - "a green" is "GENERA-" or General Pickett You can still hear the honking - ? Shell, limestone, silver, salt - abalone Sails pass by night - light house Even in darkness - this and next two lines seem like instructions to line up a view Like moonlight in teardrops - something white inside a circle Behind bending branches - standing at a tree such that the white object is behind Years pass, rain falls. - erosion? Architectural note on windows of Selby Abbey in the the town of Selby in North Yorkshire, England:  A notable feature of the Abbey is the 14th century Washington Window, featuring the heraldic arms of the ancestors of George Washington, the first president of the United States.The design is often cited as an influence for the Stars and Stripes flag.

erexere wrote:: Behind bending branches = filler text to get SELBY Years pass, rain falls.  = more filler *cough, splutter* Filler? Don't think so. There's few enough clues in these verses already without randomly ignoring parts of them.

okay, that was a slip up.  My brain siezed and I got lazy at the end of the night.  Preiss uses extreme word economy.  Lots of meaning hangs on each word.  Its almost as if everything were translated from a native american story teller. Years pass, rain falls...some kind of heavily erroded stone or area?

erexere wrote:: I asked myself, why are we just taking the SELOY letters...wouldn't be cooler to use all the lines for the acrostic: TWNWBAAYSSSELOY. I think that would have been a little *too* obvious. Once it was recognized that there was an acrostic in play, one could simply look up "Seloy" in an encyclopedia and know immediately that FOY was the site, without having to combine a verse and an image, follow meticulously developed clues, etc. Burying "Seloy" amid gibberish was brilliant, the verbal equivalent of hiding the Chicago Water Tower in a painting. Insisting that every first letter contribute to the acrostic would be like insisting that every letter in a word search puzzle be part of a word. There would be no challenge anymore.

I see you're point.  Props to the brilliance in the design of this verse too. I wonder if anyone would ever consider "washington window" and connect it to the Selby Abbey and then spot the acrostic similarity in Seloy?

I don't think the SELOY anacrostic is in any way meant to lead us to the casque. I think it's a hidden extra that will confirm the location later, after the OTHER elements are discovered and the location is narrowed down. Once you begin researching the St. Augustine area, you will, probably, as we did here on this board, find the word "Seloy" in your research and you'll have a sort of "aha!" moment with the verse and you'll know you're on the right track. Nor do I believe that BP is using any sort of tricks. While meditating today, I had a good long think about how these puzzles were structured, and one thing kept coming up again and again. There were no tricks , no oblique references, no third-layer sets of meanings, no word play. They were very straightforward, used the real initial letters of their locations or items, (i.e., L for Lincoln) real images of real things that were there in the location, and only follow a pattern insofar as they all have a country, gem, month, number and flower associated. There are latitudes and longitudes in each image. Each image follows its country of association into the location somehow--in Cleveland, the assocation is Greece, the location was the Greek cultural Gardens. In Chicago it is Ireland, the location was in Bryant Park, home of Chicago's Irish Festival ( a major event.) There is a building or structure that is not a composite of many things, but depicted whole and entire--in Image 4, it is the Cleveland Terminal Tower, in Image 5, the Chicago Water Tower. In Image 8, it is Milwaukee City Hall. I believe he had these things included to get us to the correct CITY ONLY. The verse would then narrow down the location further, as would other elements in the Images. These buildings or structures are not private houses, obscure landmarks or otherwise unknown or random inclusions--they are major city elements and can be used to visually identify the place. The castle on the box in Image 11 is probably the Park Plaza Hotel castle. I don't think BP was trying  to be obvious, but I really don't think he was trying to be so tricky that it would take layers upon layers of sleuthing to uncover what was simply THERE, but not well-observed.

erexere wrote:: He wants us to think Florida with P6.  He wants us to pair with V9 with SELOY. And he wants us to find the treasure. Once we think Florida and pair V9 w/ I6....viola. If he were hiding his life savings of a billion dollars, then perhaps he would make it near impossible. This is a treasure hunt for fun.

I've been wondering if its possible somehow to determine whether some locations were meant to be easier than others or which is meant to be the hardest.  Probably they are simply one way or another and this question has no meaning.  The only thing I can think of is to seek answers within the historic register.  "Lane" was the name of my first school after Joseph Lane.  "Two twenty two" followed easily after focusing on Oregon.  The rest of the verse breakdown "see Image 6 and other ramblings" and Verse 5 thread for details, didn't look impossibly tricky although each image element had a small disguise.  Local knowledge and familiarity play the most vital role first in getting on track and then at the end when you have to be right on the site most central.

erexere wrote:: New ordering of lines to Verse 9 w/ interpretation- The first chapter - the first fraternity (crossover to the Boston casque) Over the tall grass - "over" is a clue to radio transmission protocol and the site I am considering is a field of tall grass Near men - men close together would point to the barracks in this setting With wind rose - is a radio compass Written in water - message in waves (supports the radio compass idea) At the base of a tall tree - "base" as in military outpost, a tree near it Stars move by day - flagpole with US flag at site And a green picket fence - "a green" is "GENERA-" or General Pickett You can still hear the honking - ? Shell, limestone, silver, salt - abalone Sails pass by night - light house Even in darkness - this and next two lines seem like instructions to line up a view Like moonlight in teardrops - something white inside a circle Behind bending branches - standing at a tree such that the white object is behind Years pass, rain falls. - erosion? Architectural note on windows of Selby Abbey in the the town of Selby in North Yorkshire, England:  A notable feature of the Abbey is the 14th century Washington Window, featuring the heraldic arms of the ancestors of George Washington, the first president of the United States.The design is often cited as an influence for the Stars and Stripes flag. I made several small changes to my original interpretation.  The lines have been rearranged a tad and this is the SELBY-PICKETT theory to be paired with Image 12 for a San Juan Island, Washington location. If people have time to use these forums for discussion, I'd like to know if anyone else has ideas of their own about small clues in verse or image that crossover to another casque location.  As you can see I've marked the version 2.0 line of verse 9 as belonging to the Boston location.  I'm saying this because I'm trying to avoid over forcing the solution.  We can also discuss further the re-arrangement of the verse here to create a complete acrostic of TO NW WA SAYS SELBY.  A good poll question would be:  Does this rearrangement of the parts change the meaning of the whole so much that this is simply too unlikely? Y/N. Another note about the SELBY idea cooperates with my claim that LANE from verse 5 was a reference to Joseph Lane.  Both William SELBY Harney and Joseph LANE were GENERALS in the Mexican-American War. I'm sorry if I'm not attaching my theories to the fantasy angle of the book.  Fairies are cool to consider, but I'm working more from an American history angle as I believe progress will come from eventful moments that aren't overwhelmingly known in common knowledge having to do with early presidents, wars, architecture, the founding of cities and towns, Native American history, and the history of slavery all might apply.  Who were the first members of Congress?  Who were the first Territorial Governors?  Who were the first Settlers to make contact with Native American Chiefs?  Who were the first Slaves to persevere and show dignity as they fought for freedom?  Where did significant cultural history take root and only result as a page 2 or back page story rather than a front page headline?  What were our first News papers in America?  Lots of little questions may very well have worthwhile answers.  Why was the Liberty Bell hidden in Allentown, PA for so long?  What's the story about General Pickett having married a Native American princess?  Where is Fort Mandan and who built it?  Not all these questions specifically pertain, but these "cogs" must be allowed to turn if casques are to be found.  Cogs for Casques...I like the sound of that.

Couple of thoughts on the FOY version. I'm wondering if you actually need to enter FOY at all on this trail, or whether all the action takes place just outside in Magnolia. The first chapter Written in water "First chapter" sign seen from the road: Near men With wind rose (Can't remember what this is, some FOY information board about sailors or something) Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree Further down the road is this green picket fence at the base of a tall tree, and the wall pattern resembling Ponce's jacket. These lines have previously been taken to indicate a spot which is at the base of a tall tree, and which is behind bending branches and a green picket fence within FOY. But there's another way to read it. If you were at the bottom of Magnolia just beyond this, it would be behind you. In other words, continue down Magnolia from the sign, to that place behind the bending branches of the trees that line the road, and that green picket fence that's at the base of a tall tree. You can still hear the honking The goose pen somewhere on the other side of the wall. Shell, limestone, silver, salt The wall of oyster shells, and a reference to FOY's "casque", the silver salt cellar. Stars move by day The FOY planetarium, which you can see from the spot by the picket fence: Sails pass by night Even in darkness Not sure Like moonlight in teardrops Could be: like moonlight (silver) in teardrops (salt), another reference to the silver salt cellar, and/or a reference to the arab myth of oyster pearls being dewdrops filled with moonlight. Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls. The years of youth pass, the "rain" is from a fountain; hence Fountain of Youth, over the long grass by the wall. I previously mentioned the shape of the undulating wall in the clouds and rock edge of this image. This can also be seen in the flag. I'm convinced the casque is in the cannon area, where the verge widens like the flag, but I'm still not entirely sure where. I suspect that the strange shapes in the horse and rider might hold a clue.

I'm thinking there is a good possibility for a casque in FOY, but I'm interested in using a verse other than 9 and image other than 6 if possible.  Image 3?  A windmill in the area?  Knight of 'column' 'bust' (Columbus?)...

How can you like the location but not what got you there?  Without I6 and V9 you wouldn't even be at FOY...much less even in Florida.

fox wrote:: How can you like the location but not what got you there?  Without I6 and V9 you wouldn't even be at FOY...much less even in Florida. You don't miss a detail, Fox! My reasoning isn't based on any hard evidence, only a suspicion that lots of similarities collectively point to St. Augustine and whether Preiss or Palencar drew from that place as a resource to throw us into a maze of red herrings or to pair a most unlikely seeming V and P to a specific location nearby is unclear.  I'm still 100% on P6V5 being Oregon and I'm 95% on four other pairings.  Although many passing ideas haven't led to a strong connection to a P or V location, some spark of significance might still be worth considering.  I won't ignore a detail simply because I have an alternative in mind.  I need to understand why a detail fails to meet a verifiable criteria.  Preiss' constructions are precise on some level.  Looking at the Cleveland and Chicago solves has helped me understand that much.

WR - to see the men with wind rose you must enter the park, because they are inside the entrance to the planetarium. There is a scale model of a ship, with lots of little men clinging to the rigging, on the east wall of the vestibule. On the opposite (west) wall is a wind rose. It even says "wind rose" in the caption below the wind rose. Why are we still debating this??

forest_blight wrote:: WR - to see the men with wind rose you must enter the park, because they are inside the entrance to the planetarium. There is a scale model of a ship, with lots of little men clinging to the rigging, on the east wall of the vestibule. On the opposite (west) wall is a wind rose. It even says "wind rose" in the caption below the wind rose. Why are we still debating this?? It is possible that it's buried just outside the park.  Obviously, you'd have to have been inside it to understand all the references. There is definitely a casque in or around this park, and this verse and image get you there.

forest_blight wrote:: WR - to see the men with wind rose you must enter the park, because they are inside the entrance to the planetarium. There is a scale model of a ship, with lots of little men clinging to the rigging, on the east wall of the vestibule. On the opposite (west) wall is a wind rose. It even says "wind rose" in the caption below the wind rose. Thanks Forest. So the planetarium fully accounts for these lines. Stars move by day Sails pass by night Even in darkness Incidentally, I don't think that FOY are actually averse to people looking for this casque - last time I contacted them there was a new manager who sounded quite interested in finding it. Hopefully cobock1 will be doing a reccy sometime later this year.

The first chapter Written in water Near men With wind rose Stars move by day Sails pass by night Even in darkness There's quite a lot about the planetarium then. Maybe the rock represents the planetarium dome, seen here over the wall. As I've mentioned, this is a star sapphire , displaying aster ism , so it's in the right spot. I suppose you could interpret the verse as saying: "Behind (you are) bending branches and a green picket fence at the base of a tall tree"; ie, a scene like this: (...the branches are all pretty bendy round here...) ...and in front of you, the dome where stars move. In this shot, you're standing next to the hydrant with the cannon behind you, looking back up the road towards the entrance. The edge of the green picket fence is on the left, and the yellow sign seen in the above pic is on the right. The dome is somewhere ahead, over on the right.

WR -- the owners of FOY are highly averse to people digging without permission. And to get permission, you had better have an extremely solid reason for digging in a very restricted area. See prior posts by stercox.

They didn't like people digging without permission, understandably, but the current manager seems open to the idea of looking for it. I had an email from him back in March with some photos and theories and even offering to do some digging himself. (I don't think it's in the main park area in any case, but somewhere along the verge in Magnolia.)

You get a good view on Goggle Maps. The green picket fence and tall tree seem to be near the exit from the car park. This should be an embedded Streetview so you can zoom in on the fence and tree. Is it possible on this forum?

The perimeter wall seems to be made of stones and pebbles. "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" ? Have you found the piece of wall where the pebbles match the pattern of rocks around the blue jewel?

These words come from signs inside FOY park. "Shells" and "limestone" are in close proximity to each other on one sign, and "silver salt" occurs in another (reference to the park's most famous -- and highly dubious -- artifact, a silver salt cellar supposedly unearthed there). See stercox' photos at webshots. All you have to do is google "stercox" and "webshots" and you will find two collections of photos of FOY taken by someone specifically looking for references in this verse.

wk wrote:: The perimeter wall seems to be made of stones and pebbles. The wall is interesting...it's made of oyster shells. hxxp://www.thelensflare.com/gallery/p_t ... _36487.php "Written in water" is from Shelley's epitaph. "Silver, salt" is connected with "casque", which appears on the silver salt cellar's sign. Maybe "shell, limestone" were also chosen for a reason, because they connect with something; eg, the wall. "Like moonlight in teardrops" makes the same cryptic association.

a pearl inside of an oyster shell would look like a moon that shines inside a shape of a teardrop.

WR: "The first chapter / Written in water" is not, I would wager, taken from Shelley's epitaph. "The first chapter" is taken directly from a sign nailed to the main gate of FOY: "The First Chapter / Our U.S. History," while "Written in water" is a reference to the Fountain of Youth itself.

(Yep, I agree we don't really need Shelley. Just thought I'd mention him since I like the wall and the shell connection. Thing is, you can identify phrases that were taken from the location, then you can go a step further and ask, why those particular phrases, in a no-stone-unturned kind of way.) Brainstorming... The flag and tree trunk are quite similar. (There's also a slight resemblance between the flag with purple motif and the purple-headed flowers.) Here's a comparison without scaling. The verse refers to a silver salt cellar. Its sign talks about casques and Ponce de Leon. "Casque" means “helmet”, from the Spanish "Casco". hxxp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=casque This draws attention to Ponce’s helmet. Now, if the tree trunk represents Magnolia Ave… …then by analogy, we could say the flagstaff also represents Magnolia Ave… …with elements along it which include the wall… …the hydrant… …and the planetarium… Both of these stick versions of Magnolia Ave have a suggestion of the planetarium’s dome-and-awning shape at the base.

Behind bending branches I remember a time about twenty years ago I was in my first year on the crew team at U of O and the first thing we would do in the morning to warm up was grab a big boat oar, four people per oar, run six miles around the lake and then line up on the dock and do sit-ups while still holding the oar.  This gem of repressed memory just popped into my mind the other day and I thought it might apply to military exercise training.  Imagine a large group of soldiers doing sit-ups and pushups in their barracks, specifically the army branch...

Here I basically work with 4 words: shell, limestone, silver, salt.  The abalone seashell consists of calcium carbonate, limestone is also calcium carbonate, silver is a good description of the lustrous mother of pearl or irridescent nacre of abalone shells, and calcium carbonate is a salt.  Also, the moon looks very pearl-like and one particular shape of pearl often used in pendants is called "teardrop" in shape.  Please observe the large illustration of selected wiki excerpts:

I like your pearls for what we have called the color blind test....fits quite nicely.  But now where....argh

(Seems calcium carbonate is also made from oyster shells...) hxxp://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 041AAr24bd

WR, you have discovered a new which-came-first-chicken-egg conundrum! Hmm...Florida is always going to be in the picture.  Maybe there's a toothfairy connection with Sodium Fluoride. My brain could use a good flossing about now...

Don't forget this (possibly) simpler explanation! hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/227624 ... 0493VCCsUN hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/274918 ... 0493UtPpMJ ...both visible at the FOY in St. Augustine.

I honestly don't know why any other explanation is being pursued. This was so clear and so apt that it SINGS. And the ONLY reason a casque has not been found in FOY park is that they won't let anyone dig there. With all the other confirmers, why on earth is any other location even being considered?

Hey, I get that FOY is warm and fuzzy, but I am not disdainfully opposed while toying with an alternative.  I was just noticing there is a George Washington like alignment with image 12 to go with this.  The underside of the woman's arms and the midsection of the white robe matches the dollar bill image of shoulder to mouth to shoulder.  It's not perfect but just enough that it really catches on.

D'oh, sorry Forest, forgot. But although no-one is going to allow random unauthorised digging on their property, they're not implacably opposed to this puzzle. Last time I contacted them the manager even said he'd be willing to try digging for it himself. I reckon the problem is just that no-one has pinpointed an exact spot yet.

I just cant buy into the Fountain of Youth Park, The whole park is Private Property and it was in 1982 and it is behind a large wall that has a gate that closes when the park is closed for business... I just cant picture him digging in there at all. especially when there is one verse that says "get Permission to dig out" and its not this one. And less than 100 yards away is a public park

Unknown: But you are missing the function of the verse, which is specifically to guide you to the square foot spot you are supposed to dig. Good point, although you just posted that: Every single line of this verse is about FOY. What is there that could take you away from it? Personally I don't think it's in the restricted part of FOY - I still reckon it's just the other side of the wall...(base of Magnolia, formerly the main entrance, now a quiet corner begging for a soil probe.) I'm open-minded about a local park if there can be any clues found for it, but unless there are any green picket fences there, seems to me it would have to be the image rather than the verse that pinpointed the spot. I last looked at this back in March when FOY were offering to take photos of this area and dig it up, and cobock1 was planning a visit. Never heard back from either of those though. Time to hassle some people... The first chapter Accounted for. Written in water Why Shelley? Fits though. Near men With wind rose Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree You can still hear the honking Shell, limestone, silver, salt Stars move by day Sails pass by night All present and correct. Even in darkness Like moonlight in teardrops Smacks of repetition. Night/darkness. Like moonlight (silver) in teardrops (salt). Why the repetition? Over the tall grass Well, yeah, probably, if you take it literally. Bit odd - about as useful as "cars abound". Might also be referencing the image perhaps. Years pass, rain falls. Etc.

"written in water" = "fountain of youth" Also, the last few lines to serve merely to spell out SELOY as an acrostic.

My first interpretation of 'written in water' was saying a "message in waves", some kind of broadcast antenna?  But when I settle down and think about it normal-like I take it to mean a tale of grief.  At this point I would look for something sad or misfortunate about whichever plausible location is being referenced.  I can't speak for FOY, but the events prior to Pickett taking residence in Washington were quite sad given that the woman he loved, Miss Sally Minge died in childbirth along with the unborn child.  Pickett moved on, married an indian woman in Washington named Morning Mist, and they had a son.  I venture to say "morning" is homonymous with "mourning".

I was just taking another look at the hydrant, and I like the square-within-the circle thing with the flag… Maybe this could be a marker for a spot beside the wall…? The picture could indicate the relative positions of the hydrant, the tree, and the “casque” (helmet/box). …in which case, could this be the palm…? Emailed the FOY manager earlier who's replied to say: "Very interesting! I will check out the area. It is outside the property wall and would have been easier to access than other areas we considered." With strong leads, an undisturbed site, and a helpful park manager, I reckon this one offers a real chance of retrieval if we can just find the last piece of the puzzle. * * * * * Here’s a recap of some of the other possible visual matches also seen at this spot. The jacket and the green picket fence… The planetarium… The cannon… The bending branches… The stone pillars… The wall…

WR, I see what and why you make those visual comparisons but it makes me even less convinced of FOY. I like the hydrant as an idea but more as a verse rather than image reference.  Do we have any examples of where verse and image both refer to the same specific marker?

@WR That palm comparison is interesting... I notice in the image the palm has no reflection (unlike the rock)... You'd think something should be there

Cheers...yeah, I was pleased to be able to get a palm into the Magnolia theory... That circular loop of cord in the corner of the flag always caught my attention.

I have thought about that ring a lot, but haven't a clue. As for the hydrant, since its introduction I always like to look at it like...

Please see this as an alternative and not meant to be as a refutation to anything FOY related. I really like the material for FOY, because it has perfectly acceptable qualities of matching a pattern in image and having a reasonable explanation based on the verse. I'm am offering nothing new here, but I repackaged some recent selections to marvel at the simplicity of this alternative, given an image 6 and verse 5 pairing.  Location: Portland Women's Forum, Corbett, Oregon on Highway 2 Exit 22 in a region (Oregon Territory) first governed by Joseph Lane , first a bird's eye view compared to Ponce's pennant flag with a close up perspective of the boulder in the middle of the ring of stones as compared to Ponce's hilltop.

*censored*

erexere wrote:: Please see this as an alternative and not meant to be as a refutation to anything FOY related. I've followed and will continue to consider all your ideas erexere. I think a lot of your stuff is great and I was happy when you started posting. One of my favorite parts of this hunt is the amount of historical stuff I always end up reading/researching... amazing things I would have never known about. Different theories give me reason to search more With this image, however, I just can't get past the silhouette of Florida. I can see myself taking seriously an alternate location in the state of Florida, but anything else would be hard pressed to get my attention. Saying this image represents Oregon is like saying Image 4 represents California to me.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I think a lot of your stuff is great and I was happy when you started posting. One of my favorite parts of this hunt is the amount of historical stuff I always end up reading/researching... amazing things I would have never known about. Different theories give me reason to search more ...yeah, just kidding erexere...

It's cool.  I can appreciate a little guff now and again, but this isn't what's important.  We have a lot of mediums to work with and a lot of preconceptions driving our ideas.  The willpower alone to work through these puzzles with slim to no prospects of recovery is phenomenal.  Keep up the good work.  Hope to see more folks return to this hunt and fill the gap before the earth finishes digesting those casques. This presents a question to whether verse 9 supports a pairing with image 6 or image 12. T he first chapter W ritten in water N ear men W ith wind rose B ehind bending branches A nd a green picket fence A t the base of a tall tree Y ou can still hear the honking S hell, limestone, silver, salt S tars move by day S ails pass by night E ven in darkness L ike moonlight in teardrops O ver the tall grass Y ears pass, rain falls. [considered STRONG evidence based on image 6 and a partial acrostic "...SELOY", an indian tribe that interacted with Ponce deLeon to mean somewhere in St. Augustine Fountain of Youth area.] T he first chapter O ver the tall grass N ear men W ith wind rose W ritten in water A t the base of a tall tree S tars move by day A nd a green picket fence Y ou can still hear the honking S hell, limestone, silver, salt S ails pass by night E ven in darkness L ike moonlight in teardrops B ehind bending branches Y ears pass, rain falls. [my position based on image 12 and a complete acrostic matching the military orders General William Selby Harney gave General George Pickett to occupy San Juan Island] I marvel at a reading of 'Written in water' to mean a "story of sadness" as it might refer to the mourning of George Pickett for losing his wife and unborn child just before Selby gave him the instructions and the irony in his next marriage to a young indian woman named Morning Mist (homonym: mourning = morning).  More importantly there are some drops suspended in air, Definition: MIST Verb: Cover or become covered with mist. Noun: A cloud of tiny water droplets suspended in the atmosphere at or near the earth's surface.

available for $20 for the next 10 days at: hxxp://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Ma ... qOFPLK8ugU

Last time I checked, Corbett OR is not a port city and has nothing to do with immigration.  Heck, it isnt even a well known city like both Chicago & Cleveland (found casques) as well as all of the other potential casque cities.  It just doesnt fit.

From FOY this morning: "Entirely possible on the quiet street. Interestingly, the wall curves hard to the right just behind the hydrant. I think I need to dig...." Fingers crossed.

fox wrote:: Last time I checked, Corbett OR is not a port city and has nothing to do with immigration.  Heck, it isnt even a well known city like both Chicago & Cleveland (found casques) as well as all of the other potential casque cities.  It just doesnt fit. Ummm...Portland IS a port city.  I lived there, watched Navy battleships come in every year.  Corbett is just minutes away from the Portland Airport.  The Columbia River is the first and primary reason for US expansion and trade in the early frontier movement west since Captain Robert Gray and Lewis and Clark.  Come on people. I think its necessary to have a quad-espresso right now...okay half done...needs sugar....ahhh thats just right.  Ok, I'm not looking for the goldilocks treatment here...just a little frustrated when encountering objections that dont have any weight.  I realize that Corbett specifically isnt on the world list of ports.  It is basically a hill with ports down below on either side extending farther east to Umatilla and Walla Walla and the Snake River and Portland to the west. Good try Fox, but if it has to be said, I think for fit sake, I only pinpointed the location based on Lane and 2 and 22.  I never had to force any of my solution because it fit in a shocking way and Image 6 was the clear winner.  I had no preconceptions based on anyones research here before I started.  My approach as a poetry contest organizer led me to look more objectively at the verse and its use of figurative and literal word choice.

SELOY: The name of the village the FOY park sits on.  Other uncommon words from the verse are written, plainly, on signs in the park.  Also, the Fountain of Youth is a direct tie-in to the overall theme of The Secret -- the settling of the New World. SELBY: The name of an obscure, unnotable figure from an unnotable event in American history, which, requires reordering the verses and yet another layer of interpreting an anagram to get there. I'd want there to be a casque buried in my backyard, too, but this isn't it.

I hesitate to think Seloy isnt the least bit obscure.  Is it really necessary to defend that level of opinion?  I'm not about to argue history or its absolute relevance.  Selby existed, and holds much significance as many others who are important to this country's history. I cant claim to care about whas in my backyard. You are being rude by any standards. The comparative argument of selecting a reordered or anagramed vs ignoring two thirds of the acrostic is intelligent but to rule one over the other without better consideration isnt very smart.

Yes -- Seloy is obscure.  But like the other words from the verse, it's also written on signs in the FOY park .  BP didn't expect anyone to know Seloy -- but if they saw it in the park, and recognized it from the verse, they'd know they were in the right spot.  The acrostic doesn't have to run the full length of the verse for it to be a deliberate confirmer. Incidentally, I like at least one of your ideas a lot, actually -- the Boston/optometry one.  It's a very close match to the image, and it ties in, in a clever (but clear) way to points in the verse. On this one, I think your process is favoring obscurity over simplicity, way beyond what I believe BP intended here.  Obviously I'm not the arbiter of that.  But if there's any chance of digging up another casque, the FOY is the best possible shot that exists right now, and efforts would be better spent towards finding where, exactly, it is buried on that site.

Thanks for the nod, I think you meant the Church of Scientology building's panel, yes, it's next to the Optometrist College.  Someone really needs to get their shovels into Boston, I bet there's a good chance that casque will surface. As for obscurity over simplicity...I can't argue with that.  It's a complicated thing just to tell you what I think is simple...Preiss' challenge hasn't really given us the simple option, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening 30 years late.

if the planetarium is "stars move by day," has this ship been mentioned as "sails pass by night"? sorry if it has... i read through the last several pages of posts, and it seemed there was either no clue or it was a mural in the entrance.

From Stercox... "Inside the planetarium the display is set up like the deck of a ship--so that you get the effect of being on a ship looking past the mast into the night sky during the program." See photos here... hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/270752 ... 0493cCXwXM Hadn't noticed the weather vane before, but yeah, ships aplenty in the planetarium...

Those pictures and explanation are spot on... thanks for pointing me to the info

Unknown: As a result of the negotiations, both sides agreed to retain joint military occupation of the island until a final settlement could be reached, reducing their presence to a token force of no more than 100 men.[5] The "British Camp" was established on the north end of San Juan Island along the shoreline, for ease of supply and access; and the "American Camp" was created on the south end on a high, windswept meadow, suitable for artillery barrages against shipping.[7] Today the Union Jack still flies above the "British Camp", being raised and lowered daily by park rangers, making it one of the very few places without diplomatic status where US government employees regularly hoist the flag of another country. Years pass, rain falls 421, I rather like the "reign false" interpretation.  "Reign" pertains to the rule of a Monarch and "false flag" pertains to flying a flag of a country not of your own. The line about tall grass might fit here.

Found a large boulder with a copper plaque that's all blue and green and written upon it is "...CHAPTER / DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION".  Could the blue and green color be a reference to water, or is it more the geology of the stone being a glacial erratic, a stone that has been moved or carried to a location by glacial flow.  Ice = water right? Here's a fascinating find:  I've previously matched the proportions of the image in height and where the water line/surf matches the base of the monument stone.  That this was moved from the Redoubt site to another area is something to consider. Amazing!  I can't stop thinking about this connection as to why the white gowned woman is floating vs what a rock carried by a glacier does.  How does a rock "fly" to the top of a hill?  This glacier thing fits every angle I look at it.  Gown as white with blue base edge matches the typical description of a glacier "white ice floating in cold blue water".

Okay, i never heard of this organization before, it sounded like a cruel MS joke at first, this link confirms the first chapter was in Washington State. hxxp://www.dar.org/natsociety/archives_founders.cfm

Point taken...let me try a different approach. Cleveland Chicago Milwaukee New Orleans Boston Corbett One of these things is not like the others...........

lol

I've been reading some interesting history about Andrew Jackson and Jean Lafitte.  It was interesting that Lafitte helps fight against the British in New Orleans but also becomes a spy and pirate.  It's a colorful history.  The wikipedia article mentions how many folks assumed Lord Byron's poem "The Corsair" was based on Lafitte.  It's just a pet theory of mine that Byron Priess drew inspiration based on Lord Byron, but I'll need to work at that idea much much more.  Perhaps someone else around here has had a similar idea.  A flat out NO might suffice, but any citations or proof to the contrary is always welcome. Another interesting note: William Selby Harney's first military accomplishment was forcing Jean Lafitte out of the Louisiana Territory and onto the Spanish Main.  I don't know if that's significant or not, but it's difficult to ignore or consider insignificant.  Wasn't or Andrew Jackson or Jean Lafitte mentioned in the thread about the New Orleans casque?  --please consider this as side research into a possible connecting thread between casques.

I have run across so many tangential relations between each of my theories, I have just begun to chalk it up to the six degrees of separation. When referring to historical stuff, especially historic people, it seems to be much more like one or two degrees since the population/world was much smaller.

That really is a powerful architecture.  I can visualize Occam as a little boy sledding down that hill...yeah, I see what you mean.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: OK, I've been taking your advice and trying to spot any significance in the overall image. It's a horse on a hill. I agree it fits FOY perfectly, water and all. But it's a curious phrase, and its resemblance to Keats' epitaph warrants a closer look. I was remembering another of Keats' most famous poems, "Ode to a Nightingale", thought to have been written at a historic pub called Spaniards Inn. It refers to the Hippocrene, a fountain struck open by Pegasus on Mount Helicon. (The name means "horse's fountain".) ...if it is the hydrant, it's both prominent and neatly disguised, and ties in with the overall fountain theme. Mind you don't hit a main.  ;) . Spare focus from FOY for a moment and consider the meaning of "wind rose" in connection to the Keats-centric view.  Ode to a Nightengale.  Gale = wind.  Rose = flower = Florence. Florence Nightengale's rose is a reference to a statistical pie chart.  The wind rose is associated with meteorological use.  The lady of the lamp is associated with nursing, but also with the role of women in the time of war, which is the central premise to the founding of the Daughter's of the American Revolution.  The "first chapter" of DAR was founded in the state of Washington. Shouldn't we focus on WA and something associated with meteorology?  Rain falls... hxxp://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Di ... le_Id=7704 perhaps? Maybe the woman in the white dress in image 12 is a "white whale"?

I think this is our iconic image in image 12: The path will take us to the area near the "green" picket fence, where "green" is being used to connote "army".

hxxp://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... ayouts.pdf This is really great stuff...*churn churn* maybe I'll find something of use here before having to set foot in San Juan. Wow, that is fascinating and deep research.  Lots of detail on the lime composition of the plaster and paint analysis of the buildings which used lots of alternating green and white colors over the years.  Nothing directly mentions the fence paint. I especially like the comparison of architectural style of the Officer's Quarters to that of the House of Ulysses S. Grant in Vancouver (Chicago's Grant Park crossover?). See page 102 of the 111 page PDF and you'll see where building 13, the hospital, was located.  The Florence Nightengale theory suggests the casque might be buried near there at the base of a tall tree just a few paces to the west of that site.  Overhead satellite images confirm where these buildings once stood.  A tourist sign map at the site shows where the buildings once stood as well.  Restoration and preservation has been active since 1966.  I don't know yet what has changed since 1981, hoping not much, and that Priess found easy access to the layout information. And so I have this new line by line, The first chapter On October 11, 1890, eighteen women and four men met in Washington for the purpose of organizing the Daughters of the American Revolution.  This was the VERY FIRST DAR chapter.  A memorial plaque by DAR honors Lt. H. M. Robert at the Redoubt of San Juan Island. Written in water In Rome, Italy, Keats' epitaph reads "Here lies one whose name is writ in water."  One of his poems, Ode to a Nightingale, is our clue to apply Florence Nightingale to this riddle.  The artist J.J. Palencar responded with "...elves can be tricksters." when asked about this hunt.  Ode to a Nightingale contains the line "As she is fam’d to do, deceiving elf."  I do think he was dropping a hint. Near men The men of the US Army who occupied the American Camp of San Juan Island and lived in the Officer's Quarters building, bored for having nothing to do when Britain refused to go to war over a pig. With wind rose Think of wind as gale and rose as flora.  The "Nightingale Rose" is a statistical chart developed by Florence Nightingale and this polar pie chart method is still used for applications such as meteorology.  The weather in the San Juan Island area was of great concern to maritime traffic which depended upon contact with the two lighthouse stations on the island: Cattle Point Lighthouse and Lime Kiln Lighthouse. Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree Military clues: branch, green, base = US Army.  A picket fence surrounds the American Camp and coincidentally, Army Captain George S. Pickett and the men of Company D of the 9th US Infantry were dispatched to San Juan Island during the dispute with the British. You can still hear the honking This is a military camp, and it would be certain to have used bugle call to signal duty change, mess hall, etc. Shell, limestone, silver, salt The abalone mollusca, common in the area at the time, have a silvery mother-of-pearl nacre composition of Calcium Carbonate (which is also limestone).  According to research the plaster used on the structures in the area wasn't composed of the usual gypsum (plaster of paris), but instead used seashell and horsehair as a binder. Stars move by day Stars on a US Flag are moving with the wind.  A tall flag pole is present at the American Camp. Sails pass by night Lighthouse.  Cattle Point Lighthouse is nearest, down the road on the eastern peninsula. Even in darkness Without the guidance of light, the ships relied on the Radio Beacon installed on the Cattle Point Lighthouse which allowed navigation even in dense fog. Like moonlight in teardrops This line goes well with "written in water", as it speaks of grief and passing on and moonlight is set in "night," the final reinforcing clue to Florence Nightingale who as a nurse dealt with many victims and wounded of war. Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls. The American Camp had a hospital building.  I'm starting to put it together now as it follows that a nurse would be synonymous with hospital.  Where once a hospital building stood "over" it's dirt foundation and after a hundred weathering years, only tall grass now stands. Where are you, Bigmatty?

Do the words branch, green, and base open up the possibility of equating to Army Camp in the same way rumble brush and music equated to Train tracks, Art School, Music stage in Grant Park? Interestingly the Army Camp building design is based on Ulysses S. Grant's home in Galena, Illinois.  I'm betting all my chips on a Florence Nightengale connection, so Gale = Galena looks like a clever connection.

Revisiting. Men with wind rose = Nightengale Rose = Chart maker and Nurse, Florence Nightengale = nurse Soldiers camp with nurse building Years pass, The Florence Nightingale Pledge I solemnly pledge myself before God and presence of this assembly; To pass my life in purity and to practice my profession faithfully. I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug. I will do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling. With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician in his work, and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care.

I Read this very very carefully, Just to make sure I wasn't missing something. and nothing here convinces me. Totally sounds like a case of shoehorning a verse into a place where it doesn't fit. Basically every line requires bending over backwards and obscure knowledge. and Seagulls do not honk

I didn't like the seagulls honking idea much either.  A horn honks.  Maybe there's some flying shoehorns nearby.... I edited my post to reflect bugle call as the reason for honking rather than pesky seagulls. For this particular case I wonder if it's a military bugle or a fog horn given the dense fogs that often occur in the area.  I keep forgetting to make a phone call to see if they still practice a bugle routine.  I have a group of kids going on a field trip to San Juan Island this spring.  I'm hoping they'll gather some intel for me but they won't be allowed to pack cell phones or recording devices while doing their week long camp. The thing about the Nightengale Oath is it is based on the Hippocratic Oath and I'm not saying there's suppose to be any big doctor patient theme here or anything.  It's just that the word "pass" occurs in the Nightengale Oath and isn't used in the Hippocratic.  It's the skinniest shred of hope that BP wanted this word to be relevant in this way and so it's totally justified to call it shoehorning.  I'm only offering the widest perspective I can with respect to diligently checking all facts that might apply.  In this case, very slim chance, but I wouldn't say there's no chance at this point.

Bugles do not honk either. I know many a musician who would take great exception to that description. Geese honk. Not bugles.

shecrab wrote:: Bugles do not honk either. I know many a musician who would take great exception to that description. Geese honk. Not bugles. I didn't realize the derogatory implications, but good point.  Geese it is.

I really like shseverin11's mention of Virginia Woolf's book, To the Lighthouse, which has a close tie to "Years pass, rain falls". Regardless of the painted color of a fence, if it's perceived on a background of green, the negative space might be described as pickets of green.

I think I've got something figured out.  Everyone else probably had this idea settled, the instructions seem to indicate that the casque is "behind" a tree and a picket fence.  That would mean we are presented with a strong perspective on primary visual markers from a location "in front of" the tree with the fence standing between.

Bending branches would seem to indicate a fruit bearing tree.

After finding the plaque specific to the First Chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution I looked for photos of the area within line of sight. This picket fence has a familiar shape which I've verified as being consistent with 1981, restored and unchanged (not relocated or altered from its original shape). I think the tall tree in the background behind the picket fence is a good place to consider digging.  I found the same image/map technique used in the Cleveland solution where a few of the elements match exactly when mirrored.  At this point there is no question which image this fits.  Folks may still be confused if some of the minor alterations through road restoration, scrub removal, and erosion in the past 30 years.  I've done the work to research these changes.  I asked Paul Kitchen to have a look while he volunteered at this site over the summer but he never reported back.  Bigmatty mentioned visiting the area also, perhaps he can do a little more recon.

In search of something consistent with this new hypothesis, I discovered the memorial issued by DAR's first chapter, Washington being the first place of their founding.  There isn't any play on words, they are an official organization represented by chapters across the country.  The recipient of this honor was significant enough to be included in this pamphlet, I spell "TO NW WA SAYS SELBY" using the first letter of each line.  Here is a quote from a tourism pamphlet that equates to Selby (William S. Harney's middle name) telling Pickett to go to northwest Washington. Another thought about the "To northwest Washington Says Selby" idea is the incidental similarity in format to the book title "To the Lighthouse".  Seems like minutiae, but who knows how set Preiss was on being clever and obscure at the same time. Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) is comprised of chapters across the US, their FIRST CHAPTER is actively represented by those women in the State of Washington. The first chapter represents DAR, specifically a plaque with a dedication to an Army engineer in San Juan Island on a very large very significant land mark, the Redoubt Rock in honor of Lt. H.M. Robert. Written in water is just like the "Writ in water" memorial epitaph for John Keats and works here to point us to a memorial of some sort.  On San Juan Island, there are two memorials, the Redoubt Rock and the Pickett Memorial obelisk, along with a small cemetery south of the American Camp. Near men With wind rose The camp consisted in 1981 of only one remaining building, the Officer's Quarters.  Since then, other buildings have been restored to existing foundations, but the working definition of Quarters points us to a military dwelling.  This specific site is very exposed to windy conditions and has a lot of rose scrub (labeled as non-contributing) which has been since removed. Behind bending branches And a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree points to a fruit bearing tree, an orchard remnant of trees is nearby just north of the redoubt and east of the camp with the picket fence. You can still hear the honking Goose Island is just off the eastern shore. Shell, limestone, silver, salt All present and very significant to this area and directly stated upon several historical markers with the lime kilns and abalone shell. Stars move by day Huge 90 foot flagstaff at American Camp. Sails pass by night Implies lighthouse Even in darkness A radio beacon (specific to Cattle Point) guides without light. Like moonlight in teardrops White (the color of moonlight) blossoming pear (shape of teardrop) trees are of the nearby orchard trees remaining. Over the tall grass Years pass, rain falls Many "glacial erratics" are present on the prairie landscape and a significant point of tourism as well as geological interest.  The words "years pass, rain falls" is very similar to the text of a Virginia Woolf book, To the Lighthouse. Pairing this interpretation with image 12 works well.  The illustration matches three specific land marks perfectly.  What's fascinating is the acrostic TO NW WA SAYS SELBY fits all the first letters of the verse when putting the lines in a slightly different order.  This may help indicate where we start and where we end, which I haven't yet determined.  I think the "base of a tall tree" is one of the Landsbury Poplars on the south side of the Camp. hxxp://www.nps.gov/sajh/historyculture/upload/2012-American_Camp_History_Walk_online_color.pdf See this link to recognize the significance of William SELBY Harney and Capt. George Pickett to this establishment.  Also see this pdf for a more current and in-depth review of the site: American Camp Some additional history on the area: hxxp://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... /adhi5.htm and hxxp://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... istory.pdf Here's the pamphlet which would've been available to Preiss: hxxp://www.docstoc.com/docs/7194929/Ame ... alk#  Note where number 11 appears on the history walk.

Just discovered a sign marker with the words "The Prairie" in large print on it.  It is just next to the Redoubt Rock.  This is possibly the best physical object representing the line "Over the tall grass".  I believe it's number 5 on the history walk.  Sorry I can't find the pic this moment, but it's there.  Maybe Bigmatty will take a closer look for us.

This entire V has pretty much been accounted for. 1st chapter - hxxp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_xZR_AkAAtg/U ... 52C+FL.JPG the wind rose, the green fence, shell & limestone & silver & salt, etc etc etc... don't forget SELOY I just can't figure out why this V keeps getting redone.

I would say about 95% of this verse and the corresponding image is deciphered yet with that much of a solution, no casque has been found. making this fair game for alternative solutions. I kind of feel the same way about Image1/v7 and SF. I can't complain if someone has an alternate solution, If I haven't been able to dig up a casque with mine, regardless of how sure I am.

If you haven't noticed, I think I've done a good job steering clear of wacky whimsical complicated things lately. I'm 95 percent hopeful malted will find the SF casque using V7P1.  Having put forth the effort to be on the level with the grounds keepers removes a huge obstacle to the process. Clearly FOY is one of those challenges.  I expect San Juan Island to be one of those that won't require permission.  The archaelogical work has already been thoroughly done in the 70's by a team from Idaho prior to this hunt and in the important areas.  A park ranger would probably put a stop to your digging and it wouldn't seem like a big deal given that it's a sprawling prairie and lots of trees are being planted to revitalize the landscape.

thank you quad-espresso. I found some good points to focus on to narrow down the method used for this location.  The verse introduces no steps or paces which makes this a classic "find the spot where things line up" as they did in Chicago where it was in response to a grid of trees and a "fill in the blank" situation, the blank being found close to the fence and fixture. What I have found, and I've posted the primary details already, is the fence arch on the east side of the American Camp fits exactly the format of image 12, with an arch and with FIVE pickets inside it.  Those pickets match the five lines used to make the FOUR pane separation observed in image 12 behind the floating woman and the seabird. Note the clock in the right panel and see the short hand is on the 11, long hand on the 12. Now study the tourist pamphlets, and quickly locate via map the 11 is a marker post next to the significantly large Flagpole and the 12 is the marker at the base of the Officer's Quarters.  This map has a windrose in the upper-hand corner. The earlier version, probably most consistent with Preiss' visit shows a bugle below the No.12 heading in the pamphlet.  (maybe this is the "I can still hear the honking" referred to in the verse).  11 and 12 are within the "Parade Grounds", which also might be considered the part of the "honking" reference. I think the centered piece of the robe hanging below the sash tied in the center of the woman's waist is something that might resemble a specific tree at the site. I think the arch in the picket fence is the focal point for locating the casque.  The flagpole and officer's quarters building can both be lined up, centered even, and that might be a quick determination of the line heading north east that takes you near some nondescript trees, i.e. trees not considered as part of the protected orchard remnant which is closest to the windrose position in the pamphlet map. Note again the pickets formation (new now, yet restored to their exact original specifications) with a sort of eschelon or chevron formation, center picket is highest with the two adjacent pickets being shorter, etc.. The centers of these five pickets exactly matches the proportioned lines of the four panes.  Now note the second from left pane with the Moorish architecture resembling a Russian Orthodox church. The center tower is higher with the two adjacent towers shorter, perhaps this helps emulate the staggered appearance of the pickets in this one location.  This is why I feel this arch is significant in choosing the final path to the casque. It must be an intersecting or line motif.  The left most pane is an exact match of the west side of the Cattle Point Lighthouse.  Facing east through the picket arch we are actually looking right at the west side of the Lighthouse.  I know the camp and the redoubt positions were chosen to give maximum visibility over the land and sea, however I'm not sure how precisely the Lighthouse looks from this vantage point since I haven't come across any photos yet. I've looked at this as objectively as possible.  I've been very hard working at this treasure hunt for the last 18 months.  It's becoming much more a simple approach, but a trick here and there to understand, rather than a complex course of thinking.  I hope folks who have criticized my approach in the past haven't abandoned any consideration towards my recent observations.  I've really changed my point of view and see my observations as merely that and not as absolutes.  Where i've felt the need to be absolute about something, it shouldn't rest solely on my opinion, but on good observations that anyone else can plainly see.  At this point, I'm not sure if anyone has a willingness to see plainly, since they have findings and opinions of their own. forestblight, how do you like them windows now? Bigmatty, what happened to you, this site is right in your backyard.  Go have another look will you? Paul Kitchen, I'm sorry I couldn't be more conclusive during your volunteer stay with the park service.  Maybe you'll have another chance to check it out.  Please let us know.

Honestly Erexere, if you'd put half as much trouble into contacting people in St Augustine as you have into this wild, honking goose chase, we'd have recovered the casque long ago.

erexere wrote:: forestblight, how do you like them windows now? I love those windows. They will haunt me for years, no doubt. I find your logic perplexing, however. I think I have an open mind and "a willingness to see plainly," but when I attempt to see things plainly, all I see is St. Augustine and P6.

I'm wondering if the last words of the verse apply somehow to the idea of parliamentary procedure.  After the introduction of new business, a motion, a second, following discussion a vote is taken to pass the motion.  Rain falls / Years pass.  This is perplexing and curious.

Unknown: Lime Kiln Point State Park is the only park in the country dedicated exclusively to whale-watching. I didn't get that right, the line is "Years pass, rain falls."  I'm likely fooling myself into thinking the "pass" has something to do with Robert's Rules of Order.  Maybe... My thoughts have been drifting all over the place lately, because this verse is rather tricky.  The facts extracted from a general investigation of FOY really does point nicely to this verse, but given my objection, I must handle the delicate matter of consideration that Preiss either uses FOY as misdirection or we are very unfortunate in discovering strong but purely false clues. Taking a good long look at the verse I see the "written in water" stands out as a sort of "crying" kind of reference.  The Keats epitaph is just that, words of mourning and memorial.  The other line, "Like moonlight in teardrops," strongly pairs with this line also.  We have to consider that teardrops are the result of crying.  I'm sure someone has already considered this as a wolf sort of reference, since wolves are often depicted as howling at the moon.  This led me to some orbital type thinking:  what does crying/mourning/howling have to do with THE location.  I don't know how this works with a FOY perspective.  I'm focusing on San Juan Island instead and I feel obligated to work this angle as much as I can to prove one way or another that it is or isn't the right answer.  If it isn't right, then it just puts another notch in the FOY belt.  Turn over every rock, right?  So here's my orbital result:  wailing.  Wailing is the trick in this verse.  A wail is a cry of grief and is synonymous with a howl and the one way this works for my San Juan Island theory is that the word 'wail' is a homonym of 'whale'.  Another line, "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" pairs well in connection with the location of Lime Kiln Point State Park.  I've read that it is aka "Whale Watch Park" and .  This is beginning to simmer nicely as a reasonable deduction and direction for this verse. I perceive the Lime Kiln Point as a broad sort locator.  I think the First Chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution dedicating the plaque in honor of H.M. Robert on the Redoubt Rock is a narrowing clue as well as the Picket Arch, the American Camp Flagpole, and the Officer's Quarters as strong location markers.  The radio beacon lighthouse clue "Sails pass by night / Even in darkness" brings the Cattle Point Lighthouse on the other end of the island into consideration, but it becomes a distant marker that doesn't compel me as much as the close together clues.  Cattle Point Lighthouse is right next to Goose Island, which fits nicely with "I can still hear the honking".  These distant markers might identify with the method used in Verse 11 "Look north at the wing", which for me refers to a location in Rodanth, south of Pea Island and even farther from the Wright Memorial "Wing" in the distant north along highway 12. I'm very enticed by the facts of the San Juan Island location, only I can't fully grasp how all the clues work together with Image 12.  At this point it is a matter of getting to the site and letting the magic happen by observing what hasn't been captured by google and tourist photos.

Is this considered a wind rose?

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I've only just caught up with these oyster-wall clues. (Thought the texture looked odd but hadn't realised what it was.) Like moonlight in teardrops "Ancient stories tell of how the Arabs had a superstition that pearls are dewdrops filled with moonlight, which fall into the sea and are swallowed by the oysters." hxxp://hubpages.com/hub/Dew-Drops-Filled-With-Moonlight "The wall itself captured my attention. Short on natural building supplies, and long on oysters, the original streets of St Augustine and many fences were created from oyster shells - and known as Taby. The textured background is from the wall by the Fountain of Youth, thickly encrusted with the shells." hxxp://www.thelensflare.com/gallery/p_t ... _36487.php Good research, but I've found that many many many coastal and island structures utilized sea shells as mortar. My focus is actually on the word 'mortar'.  Mortar in masonry terms is generally made of lime and aggregate materials, so limestone can certainly be a clue about mortar, including the use of sea shells.  Related in now physical way the weapon term 'mortar' refers to a type of artillery shell, which of course isn't a type of sea shell.  An artillery shell isn't made of limestone, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that there is some kind of word play or lateral thinking involved.  Also on the line we have "...,silver, salt".   A silver salt that comes to mind is Silver Nitrate, often used in photography or in fertilizer for agriculture.  Another and different kind of mortar reference comes with gunpowder where it's manufacture might involve use of a mortar and pestle and a limestone milling device.  Silver is also somewhat linked to the moon, and so might work as a reinforcing idea with the moonlight mention.  Salt can link to a very wide range of possibilities.  Venturing a guess, I'd say salt has to do with simply "the ocean". The FOY relation to the line is also a nice fit with the Silver Salt Cellar signage.  In San Juan Island, it works very nicely as a reference to the Redoubt, a limestone foundry fortified with canon artillery designed to launch shells at ships at sea.

We don't know exactly how long a period it was between the time he put tue final touches on his verses to the time he published in Nov. 1982.  It might be a fun conclusion to consider 1981's Raiders of the Lost Ark influenced image 8 in Houston.  I'm wondering now if An American Werewolf in London (august 1981) could've influenced Verse 9 with Image 12 in San Juan Island.  The setting is the site of the Pig War with the American and British camps at odds over the shooting of a pig.  He verse brings up a wolf howling at the moon conceptualization and provides a good possible perspective on artillery/mortars I.e. bullets.  The mention of silver could be the "silver bullet" needed to defeat a werewolf.

I would think someone in the publishing company would be very wary of infringing on somebody's copyright  by using someone else's work in a work of their own.

I knew you'd bring that up! Yeah, it's probably not the case, but that's how my brain has been working lately.

I was revisiting some of these old posts and when I looked up the FOY I saw this and it struck me as funny. However, I noticed the palm tree in the back ground and went to look. Has anyone considered the palm tree on Magnolia street next to the FOY park? It is the only palm tree on the stretch of road and it is against a wall next to two trees so only one real way to dig. Since Preiss doesn't specify what direction to dig we have to assume it is obvious once the correct tree has been found. The tree is not terribly tall as far as palms go but I have to wonder if Preiss used a palm tree, would it still be there? A tall tee would already be aged. Given another 30 years, chances are it's not. Does anyone have experience with the type of palm trees in florida?

Near men In the sense that 'near' means 'almost, but not exactly', aren't pigs something like 98% genetically similar to humans?

I wish we could find someone willing to try digging at this place - I bet we could locate this one now. The only people I hear from attempt places like Houston and Charleston which are far more difficult.

In my view the first two lines are most important in each of the verses for limiting our focus to a specific region. The first chapter, has a broad meaning.  Some words on a sign in front of FOY is not a generalized enough focus.  I think it makes more sense to say it could be applied to any founding of an organization, consisting of chapters, wherever that first chapter relates is a good place to start.  I've selected the Daughters of the American Revolution, Washington Chapter is their first.  That is in effect saying ANYWHERE in the region of Washington. Written in water, is sufficiently close to 'writ in water' words upon gravesite of Keats, is in essence a message of mourning, an epitaph, words after life.  Consider the meaning and surmise the merging of message and afterlife: Hermes in Greek or Mercury in Roman. Mercury (pron.: /ˈmɜrkjʉri/; Latin: Mercurius  listen (help·info)) was a major Roman god, being one of the Dii Consentes. He was the patron god of financial gain, commerce, eloquence (and thus poetry), messages/communication (including divination), travelers, boundaries, luck, trickery and thieves; he was also the guide of souls to the underworld. Consider the meaning of 'like moonlight in teardrops', as a clue about a wolf's crying at the moon and the line which fits the description of a silver bullet as a folklore reference to the werewolf. Werewoles are killed by silver bullets, silver in general, but also by the liquid metal known as quicksilver aka mercury. In terms of word exactness, mercurial or quicksilver is having to do with describing something or somebody as wandering or erratic. The plaque I've found by DotAR upon the large glacial (water) erratic (Mercury) on San Juan Island fits this idea. I mentioned near men as a clue about pigs.  I mentioned a clue about wolves.  I'm working with mythology, folklore, and now a childrens story, the three little pigs and the big bad wolf. With wind...  ...or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in.  The Three Little Pigs is a story about a standoff.  The Pig War is a historical standoff between US and Britain.  I like the parallel. I have no idea where to go with this yet.  Its very playful interpretively.  More later. Suffice it to say I'm dead set on the verse limiting our perspective to a few options: 1st object: Goose Island 2nd object: Lighthouse, Radio Antenna - navigation in total darkness 3rd object: Robert's Redoubt - Glacial Erratic, Plaque to Robert by First Chapter of the Daugthers of American Revolution The picket fence and the flagpole. I've drawn lines 1-3 to represent a map reading to each of these objects from the flagpole.  I believe it's most logical to dig at the fence.  The question is, which side of the fence?  Am I correct in considering that 'behind' means 'inside' the fenced area? Option 3, the rock is the nearest object, but not being there I can't say for sure which is most easily sited.  I don't think using a map to pinpoint is a good idea.  standing at the exact spot along the fence where the flagpole and the large redoubt rock, if in view, seems to make the most sense.  It's easiest that way. Those of you who are entertained by my far out theories might notice that I'm finding new ground and dispensing with older theories and complicated ways of finding a spot.  Specifically, I'm abandoning the Florence Nightengale - Hospital building idea, the Pickett Memorial (moved from the Redoubt to the parking area of the visitors center after 1981), and the middle of the nearby orchard remnant between four trees. I think the word 'rose' is meant as 'rise' for a flag (stars move by day) rising on it's mast.  A simple line of two objects on opposite sides of the fence is sufficient to locate a spot.  I say dig at the inside side of the picket fence. I can still hear the honking I really like the Goose Island that this may reference, because Geese do honk as shecrab correctly pointed out. Another option is the Bugle, which etymologically points out a reference to the cow or ox, I'm very interested in the Cattle Point Lighthouse, which is perfectly matched to the illustration of the doorway in the leftmost window panel in image 12. So, I guess options 1 and 2 are somewhat in conflict.  Perhaps I should see this as just two rather than three options.  Since both Goose Island and Cattle Point are very distance objects, perhaps it's not a factor whether I choose one or the other, since their use as clues may only be to tell us to look for something in that general direction, more specifically the nearby Redoubt Rock memorial.

erexere wrote:: The first chapter, has a broad meaning.  Some words on a sign in front of FOY is not a generalized enough focus. Remember that only two casques have been found, and one was as a direct result of identifying three words on a sign. Words on signs are always worth watching out for.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Remember that only two casques have been found, and one was as a direct result of identifying three words on a sign. Words on signs are always worth watching out for. I understand, but I want to emphasize my point that I have found a strong indication that it's those introductory lines that do create a verse linear hunt for the casque.  With respect to FOY, sorry that I'm stooping so low to attack the theory, I'm very interested in where does Keat's epitaph fit?  I see the entrance as a good place to start with the First Chapter, but then what?  It boggles my mind and even in your gatherings of tid bits in your theory I don't see anything that suggests a good pointed path towards the casque.  It's all completely up in the air with a sprinkled smattering of very convenient ideas.  I want so much to understand anyone elses take on things, just as long as it really makes sense.  Chicago and Cleveland make sense, maybe because they were constructed in a more simple way, but with the remaining puzzles taking the challenge up a notch, everyone is still wading around in the shallows.  Yes, I'm in the deep end and the water is fine, come on in, let's get it done.

If there is a Si mon and a Pie man on top of a wind rose that you are standing next to, could that be considered near men with wind rose? Simple Simon and the Pieman were used as the logo of Howard Johnson's restaurants and motor lodges from the 1930s onward, on a wind rose. Shell, limestone, silver, salt Stars move by day Sails pass by night Simple Simon Says E L O Y at the base of the tallest tree on the street, behind a green picket fence

How about we settle for an explanation of the second line?  Why Keats.  Why epitaph?

erexere wrote:: How about we settle for an explanation of the second line?  Why Keats.  Why epitaph? hxxp://himetop.wikidot.com/john-keats-memorial-tablet Because this is adjacent to his epitaph: "K-eats! if thy cherished name be "writ in water" E-ach drop has fallen from some mourner's cheek; A-ssured tribute; such as heroes seek, T-hough oft in vain - for dazzling deeds of slaughter S-leep on! Not honoured less for Epitaph so meek!" ... and it points to the use of SELOY. However, the epitaph is not an exact quote from the verse, but the FOY sign is.

Oh, excellent.  That makes the case for an acrostic.

erexere wrote:: Oh, excellent.  That makes the case for an acrostic. ... and the repetition of S makes the case for Simple Simon, no?

I thought you were joking.  That really is Simon and Pieman on the weathervane!  The same guy illustrated the Oz books also did that pic in the wiki article.  W.W. Denslow.

.

its been awhile since ive looked at this, has it ever been discussed what is up with these 2 parks,i know one is a pay,what is the other Gman sorta looks like a city park,maybe closed only entrance i see is at the end of  east san carlos ave,the link has imgs, A. is the pay park prob should have put this in the img thread Gman @ E. san carlos ave hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nlbSu A. the pay park hxxp://goo.gl/maps/UonZq both areas hxxp://goo.gl/maps/bM8GW

Simon and the Pieman wind rose on a HoJo in St. Augustine... near men with wind rose...

421, it's probably just me and my twisted sense to perceive clues that aren't intended:  NEWS on the weathervane might be construed as MEN(S) if you look at it upside down from the right angle.

erexere wrote:: 421, it's probably just me and my twisted sense to perceive clues that aren't intended:  NEWS on the weathervane might be construed as MEN(S) if you look at it upside down from the right angle. LOL! I actually thought about that too. But at the end of the day, it's a bit too twisted for me. If the line read, "near mens," I might have considered it a bit more. But you know me... literalist.

Agreed.

It's a shame the link to Stercox's photos on Webshots seems to have broken now. There's so much in the verse (and image IMHO) about the planetarium, I don't see any reason to doubt that the wind rose is the one mentioned on the sign there.

It will take some considering still but I believe we must look for rather large details, not super minor things.  Cleveland and Chicago use big things that have a considerable amount of connectivity in the bigger picture. That windrose inside that building entryway is kind of off the path.  I'd like to see building spires, arches, statues and a general boundary around the premises of the casque.  Let's see this from an architectural and art point of view.

erexere wrote:: That windrose inside that building entryway is kind of off the path. Well, not really, but I guess it depends what path you're on. The building is the planetarium. The verse features it quite heavily, although I see it from the other side of the wall than most.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: It's a shame the link to Stercox's photos on Webshots seems to have broken now. There's so much in the verse (and image IMHO) about the planetarium, I don't see any reason to doubt that the wind rose is the one mentioned on the sign there. the windrose is in front of FOY,sorry edit,the windrose at the hojo hxxp://goo.gl/maps/bWVZo

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I wish we could find someone willing to try digging at this place - I bet we could locate this one now. The only people I hear from attempt places like Houston and Charleston which are far more difficult. Do you have aspot in mind Rabbit? Me and some conmrades are planning our trips for this year and i might be willing to take a stab at this one if we are fairly certain of a spot.

I certainly do - in the corner behind the cannon at the bottom of Magnolia. (I see a cannon in this pic, though no-one else seems to.) I'm also curious as to what this red square is on that gate there (the old entrance)...I wondered about a subtle match with the saddle. I've been trying to persuade someone to dig there for over a year. The current manager, John Stavely, even offered to dig there himself at one time, though I probably pestered him too much and he went quiet.  ;) (I'm sure he'd be cooperative though.) There's a summary of my thoughts on this one here... hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc/thesecret/floridapuzzle.pdf

me too,ive always had a hard time thinking BP dug in park proper dig in that clump of trees the fence may have been green at one time i put it here b4 not sure where it is though hxxp://goo.gl/maps/8hPRa zoom hxxp://goo.gl/maps/qmTHT backside hxxp://goo.gl/maps/CVH0S one more hxxp://goo.gl/maps/5hX4Y

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I certainly do - in the corner behind the cannon at the bottom of Magnolia I've been trying to persuade someone to dig there for over a year. The current manager, John Stavely, even offered to dig there himself at one time, though I probably pestered him too much and he went quiet.  ;) (I'm sure he'd be cooperative though.) There's a summary of my thoughts on this one here... hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc/thesecret/floridapuzzle.pdf So you're lemontiger. Before I joined, I used to see your PDFs everywhere. lol Why behind the cannon and not next to it by the tree? Im curious as to how you get there by verse. I like that spot too. I can see Preiss staying at that motel nearby and digging very late or very early.

Like moonlight in teardrops?

rookhunter wrote:: Like moonlight in teardrops? yes... but you cannot dig under it or on the other side of the FOY wall. Look directly across from it, where there is "a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree" (the fence was green and the tree is taller than the rest on the block)... ... the wall matches Ponce's shirt, and the water pipe matches his arm. it's right where the rein falls. the simon and pieman are "near men with wind rose". it's definitely behind that wall, on HoJo preperty between the side of the hotel and the wall. you could still hear honking, but not see it because you are behind the wall. look at the outline of Ponce's flag blowing in the wind... is it not the outline of the top of the picket fence at the base of the tree? from where you could look across the yard and see this across the street (the fire hydrant looking over the top of the picket fence):

@WR I totally agree that your proposed solved could quite possibly be correct, using the planetarium and the signs as distinct and positive visual correlations to the verse. I just think that you are lacking a spot, and the one I have been pushing solves that. Even if "near men with wind rose" refers to the sign, could it not be a double-clue to the HoJo (for that matter, it doesn't need to be)? And even if Magnolia St. is the tall tree, aren't we looking for a (singular) green picket fence at the base of it? Is the picket fence adjacent to the HoJo not the last green picket fence at the end of Magnolia? I guess I am not trying to dispute your solve, its great! But where's the spot (basically, our same problem with Boston)? Is "a green picket fence At the base of a tall tree" as good of a description as "The end of ten by thirteen," especially given the wall matching Ponce's shirt and the flag being a clear outline of the top of a picket? Heck, from behidn the wall you would be staring at red squares.

I agree it's difficult to pin down an exact spot. My favourite clues for the corner location are: 1) "At the base of a tall tree". I don't think that's literal; it just wouldn't be possible because of the roots. Anyway, which side of it...? Magnolia seems a perfect cryptic fit to me. (Plus the tree in the pic kind of lines up with Magnolia Ave if you take the white rock as the coastline.) This is alongside the fence that marks the bottom of the road. 2) "Shell, limestone" appears on a sign, but taken in connection with visual similarities in the picture I think it also hints at the oyster-shell wall. So, beside the wall. 3) It's right next to the cannon. Do you see that in the pic...? No-one has ever commented on it as far as I recall. I could sketch in the outline but I didn't think it was necessary. I also see the stone pillar next to it. My only reservation about it being literally behind that section of green picket fence you've suggested is that it's on private property. I wouldn't rule it out though, so great, check both. Basically, I reckon someone spending a day in Magnolia and exploring the possible locations that have been suggested there would have a chance of finding a casque; better than they would just about anywhere else perhaps, given that there's almost universal agreement on image/verse/park, a helpful park manager who knows about the puzzle, and very little change over the years. No-one has ever tried digging here; they've only tried within the park. As it's a private ticketed attraction and archaeological hotspot, I think that's unlikely. If I was able to travel to just one location to dig, this would be it.

I always thought the pointed parts more resembled (archway closed door under little point, the open door under larger point, both correctly off-center in the same direction as in the image): with the sundial matching matching the bird from the image right out front: I also ran across this picture, so just for fun... look at the sorry patch of purple-looking daisies or something under the 20MPH sign on the right: BTW, I am not suggesting that the site is directly at the base of that tree and picket fence, rather between the last unit of the HoJo and the wall (which is next to "a green picket fence [which is] at the base of a tall tree"). You would be perfectly hidden, and not on that homeowner's property. You would be right across from the planetarium and the coquina wall and the birds. I have a really hard time thinking BP would dig in the Park, so close to main attractions. "Behind bending branches" is rather ambiguous to me too. I think it could easily mean on either side of the street. No matter which side you are on, you would be behind the bending branches (think about the st louis arch... no matter which side of the arches you are on, you are behind the arch). And I've actually tried for about a year to see the cannon. I almost can now, but still, not quite.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (I see a cannon in this pic, though no-one else seems to.) Actually I do see what you are seeing, and it is possibly a cannon, that would mean somewhere near the casque  there is an exact view of a cannon that could be traced onto that picture.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: the wall matches Ponce's shirt, and the water pipe matches his arm. it's right where the rein falls. I like the wall and fence - it's one of the best clues for this area of Magnolia Ave. But where exactly do you mean...? It looks like there's a drain cover in front of the fence. Is that likely to mean a pipe running between the road and fence, or alongside the fence...? It would be interesting to get a pic of any writing/numbers. (I got a reply on another forum here from someone who might be visiting in the next couple of weeks if you wanted to make contact.)

I like to look at Ebay ever so often for vintage maps and such fo the hunt. Today I ran across this nugget from the 70s: If you look closely you will see there was a tree planted on the corner of the plantarium. Ill post better pics once I recieve it. There is also a very clear map on it of the park and surrounding areas, perhaps there will be a clue on it.

from the opposite side ? (see the tree), though you may have seen:

Hirudiniforme wrote:: from the opposite side (see the tree), though you may have seen: img Although, I still like the green picket fence at the base of the tall tree: It's hard for me to believe BP would dig at that central of a location in FOY Park. But across the street, directly across from the teardrop lamplight, you find that tree and fence. ...Right behind that wall, where you could still hear honking, but not see it; right in that little dirt area where the rain falls from (and seemingly through) the roof. Yeah... a lot of white elbow joints in there...

Unknown: It's hard for me to believe BP would dig at that central of a location in FOY Park. But across the street, directly across from the teardrop lamplight, you find that tree and fence. You could be right, I was just thinking of something I read about Preiss saying. He said that he once had to climb a fence and throw a shovel over it. Of all the theorized sites I have read about, none would make it necessary to jump a fence, except this one. Preiss may have seen the park during the day and seen too many people about so he just would have to wait until it was closed and hopped the fence. There are so many variables in this one I think this treasure is missing a clue or two and someone will be on their way to Florida. (hopefully me)

He said he climbed over a fence and threw a shovel over it? I wonder what kind of fence and how tall.  Could that mean a fence only as tall as waist high?  A picket fence is tricky to climb, depending on the placement of uprights, whether they are pointed or square, and how far they project from the highest timber across.  If there is space wide enough for the toe of your boot then you can climb over without too much trouble while balancing and holding onto the top.  Standard chain link fencing is one of the worst types of fence to climb, it doesn't give you easy footing and really bites into your hands and the tops often have sharp points that aren't always bent over. I see the possibility of climbing down from the ballustrade in SF's Palace of the Legion of Honor as he might've tried to keep the line he was on as he continued down the "giant step" and across the golfing green to the hill and road beyond where I think takes you to a bench view of Golden Gate Bridge. I also see the possibility of stepping over the picket fence at the American Camp in San Juan Island because if you look at the map and photos I've provided you'll see there's a closed gate arch that may be locked during the off hours of the walking tour that takes you to Numbers 11 and 12 on the tourist pamphlet. I see a fence in the proposed site at Boston that looks fairly easy to step over one leg at a time while holding on to the bar.

Ill find the quote, I did a quick search and it didnt come up so it may be a newspaper article theres an image of. I know I read he jumped a fence. I wont comment on San Juan but I still don't see where a fence would be required to jump, even after hours. Perhaps there's nothing to it, just a thought.

Well if it co mes down to it being San Juan Island then it makes some sense if Preiss scouted out to the Roberts Rock and then back to the camp.  The gate arch opens from the inside so he would face hopping the fence or walking all the way around to the other side wit a gap which might not have even been there back in 1981. Hopping a fence seems like something you would do at night doesnt it?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Right behind that wall Isn't that private property?

Yes. The motor lodge is private property. Is this a problem? Also, I'd guess there might be some stone back there (for rain dispersement), but I don't see any concrete.

I remember the fence-jumping anecdote, too, but I can't find the reference. This newspaper article comes close (see the second page): hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_111682a.jpg hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_111682b1.jpg hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_111682b2.jpg

WTH, this is a well written article.  I'm shocked that he includes instructions in the event of his death that the solutions would be divulged from a pamphlet in his vault. This really is an awesome treasure hunt.  Sad that he isn't around anymore.  Also sad that so many folks have faded away from the pursuit.

erexere wrote:: WTH, this is a well written article.  I'm shocked that he includes instructions in the event of his death that the solutions would be divulged from a pamphlet in his vault. This really is an awesome treasure hunt.  Sad that he isn't around anymore.  Also sad that so many folks have faded away from the pursuit. That just means more treasure for the rest of us.  >:( I found that interesting too. Didn't Egbert say that his wife knew nothing about the answers? Perhaps his wife wasn't the one he gave the instructions to. Perhaps a lawyer or close friend. I bet that envelope  with the answers is just siting in some drawer, forgotten.

I think we need more photos of this area. I am seeing a lot of trees that have similarities to the image. (forgive the quick choppy editing)

Unknown: His colleague Shalema K. McGhee wrote, “While we have lost a friend and a leader in Byron, he spent more than half of his life building these companies. Once we have had some time to deal with the loss, we will move forward as he would have wanted.” Preiss had numerous projects in the works at the time of his death and had been scheduled for many meetings and panels at Comic-Con International: San Diego July 13-17. McGee said that all appointments would remain as scheduled, with Maureen McTigue handling the meetings. Her number is (212) 645-9870, XT 242. hxxp://www.cbgxtra.com/comics-news-and- ... ron-preiss ive always wondered if the person was one of these ladies

Sharing my 70's pamphlet from the FOY

not to rain, but we could have given these to you... it's amazing what's free on the innernets.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: not to rain, but we could have given these to you... it's amazing what's free on the innernets. Oh its not a big deal, I collect stuff from the treasure sites. I didnt see these in the threads so I posted them.

The phrasal verb "wind up" or "wound up" is interesting to consider as the intent of the words in the line "with wind rose". Adjusting for tense and relative meaning we have: wind / wound rose / rise = upwards / up "wound up" is a phrase used to say what result comes from a particular course of action or the conclusion to some situation or event.  "I wound up in jail after a night of drinking."  "The group wound up lost without a leader".  "The two families wound up in a bitter feud because of a misunderstanding between two children." I thought the line "Near men" might relate to: near / close to / similar to men / mankind / humans What is similar to humans? Primate monkeys would be the first choice as a genetic and cognitive trait. Parrots can imitate speech and demonstrate advanced cognition. Any creature having bipedalism: birds, dogs, bears, meerkats, kangaroos, and the list goes on. Even something anthropomorphic might be the goal of this line. I'm quite happy with the "Pig War" as the target for "Near men / With wind rose".

Looking back at some old posts and I found this picture. It seems to meet everything in the verse: Behind bending branches (the Magnolia street trees) and a green picket fence at the base of a tall tree. (plus its close to the planetarium) Looking at google, the tree is not there anymore. Its not clear from the posts where exactly attempts have been made. Does anyone know if Stercox or anyone else tried there? (webshot albums are not working anymore)

The first line:  The first chapter Initially this puts us on an organization of some kind.  My theory of the clues align themselves to point to the Daugthers of the American Revolution having different chapters in the many states, their first being connected to the state of Washington. Upon following the clues to San Juan Island's American Camp, a spot surely involves the placque on H.M. Robert's Rock dedicated by the Daughters.  In image 12, the right side window pane has a clock showing what looks to be the 11th hour.  A historic trail for tourism has numbered markers around the area, the No.11 marker is the prominent flag pole at the camp behind a picket fence.  A lighthouse fits miles away to the east, next to Goose Island fits the left side window pane.  The pane to it's right has some Byzantine/Russian shaped dome silouettes, which I consider a challenging clue about 'piers', as those are architecturally related.  Already we have an elongated illustration with a windowesque look suggestive of the early church or abbey windows possibly known as 'Washington Windows' (no connection to the state of Washington).  The clock in the right most pane is much in the style of a 'pier clock' and goes well with the ocean waves and ocean bird in the image to suggest a maritime reference.  The word 'chapter' has meaning in a church as being an assembly of it's members in organization.  The stream-of-conciousness style of this verse doesn't make for an easy understanding.  My best guess is that the word 'piers' relates to the first line: members in assembly = peers , like those of a jury.  This has a very interesting connection to Robert's Rules of Order, which is an established set of rules that has been adopted as a foundation in parliamentary procedings.  When this casque is found I think it will be immediately obvious that it's associated with a 'pier' of some form.  My guess is it's next to a cement pier of a fencepost.  Some piers sit on the surface of the ground and the fence is bolted on top.  Others are below ground projections or poured cement around the fencepost in it's post hole. I think Preiss said at one time that he did use a post hole digger...maybe he was disguised as someone doing some fence repair...

erexere wrote:: The phrasal verb "wind up" or "wound up" is interesting to consider as the intent of the words in the line "with wind rose". Adjusting for tense and relative meaning we have: wind / wound rose / rise = upwards / up "wound up" is a phrase used to say what result comes from a particular course of action or the conclusion to some situation or event.  "I wound up in jail after a night of drinking."  "The group wound up lost without a leader".  "The two families wound up in a bitter feud because of a misunderstanding between two children." I thought the line "Near men" might relate to: near / close to / similar to men / mankind / humans What is similar to humans? Primate monkeys would be the first choice as a genetic and cognitive trait. Parrots can imitate speech and demonstrate advanced cognition. Any creature having bipedalism: birds, dogs, bears, meerkats, kangaroos, and the list goes on. Even something anthropomorphic might be the goal of this line. I'm quite happy with the "Pig War" as the target for "Near men / With wind rose". pretty sure it's "Near men with...": Rose not... Rose its a WindRose

erexere wrote:: The first line:  The first chapter Initially this puts us on an organization of some kind. No, I think this initially puts us at the main entrance to the Fountain of Youth State Park. See the book shaped sign.

I was reviewing this thread and I am fairly certain no one has dug at the location I posted above. Stercox was close and I wish she was still active so she could weigh in on this. Given the nature of the verses, the above location isn't just where I randomly think the treasure is, its the location Preiss gives us in the verse. "Behind bending branches" isn't a clue about the park, there are plenty of those in the verse. Second, why put " and a green picket fence" if the fence doesn't encompass a large area of the park? Those two lines of the verse are precise digging direction clues. Egbert must have seen this as well and took the pic you see in my last post. Now the tree is gone and there is a post of some kind there but the general spot should be untouched. Someone posted in SA that the owner is planning a dig in Sept. I suggest (if anyone agrees) that we mail him this proposed solution. We might just convince him to dig or let us dig there. I dont see why he wouldn't, that area is not in the archeological section of the park.

Verse 9 Shell, limestone, silver, salt This line is very interesting from a chemistry perspective. Seashells are made of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) Limestone is primarily Calcium Carbonate Silver (Ag) Salt is typically Sodium Chloride, but "salt" in the broader sense is the cation/anion result of an acid/base neutralization.  CaCO3 is a salt. As far as what the two might have in common as an application, silver may be treated for tarnish by applying calcium carbonate in solution or paste.  That reminds me, I use to polish my fishing lures with toothpaste. I'm still not completely sure of the object of this line of verse.  I thought at one time it best described nacre such as the silvery mother of pearl shell of abalone: I picked up a book from the 70's on the history of Roche Harbor (Afoot and Afloat in San Juan Islands was another book I researched) and read that the limeworks started in 1881 there produced 1500 barrels of lime a day, the largest producer west of the Mississippi. More about it's history here Should the line be designed to capture the sense of "think of a pretty kind of sea shell", or the word "limestone" be a narrowing clue, the strong central source for the commodities abalone or limestone might both be used to point to San Juan Island, but only as an after thought, since both may be found in many other places as well. An interesting connection to image 12 is the color hues of abalone may be seen in the circle filled panels.  The wiki on abalone describes the colors of the shell and it's pearls: the iridescent nacre that lines the inside of the shell varies in color from silvery white, to pink, red and green-red, through to Haliotis iris, which shows predominantly deep blues, greens and purples.

rookhunter wrote:: I was reviewing this thread and I am fairly certain no one has dug at the location I posted above. Stercox was close and I wish she was still active so she could weigh in on this. Given the nature of the verses, the above location isn't just where I randomly think the treasure is, its the location Preiss gives us in the verse. "Behind bending branches" isn't a clue about the park, there are plenty of those in the verse. Second, why put " and a green picket fence" if the fence doesn't encompass a large area of the park? Those two lines of the verse are precise digging direction clues. Egbert must have seen this as well and took the pic you see in my last post. Now the tree is gone and there is a post of some kind there but the general spot should be untouched. Someone posted in SA that the owner is planning a dig in Sept. I suggest (if anyone agrees) that we mail him this proposed solution. We might just convince him to dig or let us dig there. I dont see why he wouldn't, that area is not in the archeological section of the park.   ;D Hello Rookhunter (and everyone), That is correct, I took the photo because I think the verse leads us there.  I actually probed there with a metal pole, all around the tree, and got nothing.  That was 6 years ago.  I was actually shown around the place by one of the former workers, known on these boards as Sawdusty.  I believe she no longer lives in the area, and there is now a new owner.  I actually have an alternative place in mind, and I was going to attempt a dig yet again, in September.  You mentioned that the owner is going to be doing the same thing, and that you saw it on SA.  What is SA?!?!  A friend of mine now lives in St. Augustine, and he was going to contact the owner to get permission for us to dig.  I do not expect to find anything, but it is always fun to try.

Links: SA is SomethingAwful.com thread on The Secret . Yet another wiki, one that's not dead yet

Unknown: John Fraser, owner of the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park property, emailed me with additional information that he said I could share with you all here. John Fraser posted: Really fascinating info! Unknown: rookhunter posted: First, he's going to clear the areas he's interested in with the park archaeologist. Second, he's going to ask the state to borrow their GPR. Third, he's going to call me and let me know when. Fourth, he may do some digging if any promising locations are discovered. However he's definitely not going to give anybody permission to any independent digging. I'm sure he'd be willing to consider specific locations, if anybody could provide strong evidence that they're worth checking. However, he knows the property inside-out and has done quite a bit of investigation over the years, so there's a high burden of proof. When it gets closer to fall I'll send him any new thoughts / theories we've come up with here. Regarding Wikis, there's nothing "dead" about the original Wiki - I have a working logon, I'm sure I'm not the only one, and updated it quite recently (to wipe SLC off the map). The new Wiki seems to be mainly a homage to the pursuit known as "Urban Smurfing".  ::) The SA member with the closest links to FOY posts as "Very Nice Eraser". Here are their last couple of posts on the subject. Personally I still don't think it's in the park grounds, but I'm ready to stand someone a drink if I'm proved wrong.  ;) Good luck Egbert!

Everyone is guilty of urbansmurfery.

Wow, White Rabbit, thanks for posting that.  That is very interesting! Hopefully, my friend can get in touch with John Fraser before our visit in September.

At FOY If you go straight through the main gate, straight across the parking lot there is a gated access road but you can walk right past the gate. pass the main entrance on your right, you come to a picnic area (outside the FOY offical park) continue to the end of the picnic area, there is a green picket fence. you are basically in rock throwing distance of men with windrose. and you can see the roof of the planetarium dome Behind the fence are several tall trees and overgrown bushes, If you look to your left you can see the house of the FOY property owner. I was not able to investigate this area any further because it was posted on the picket fence. "Nesting Birds" do not pass this point. That area needs further investigation.

maltedfalcon wrote:: At FOY If you go straight through the main gate, straight across the parking lot there is a gated access road but you can walk right past the gate. pass the main entrance on your right, you come to a picnic area (outside the FOY offical park) continue to the end of the picnic area, there is a green picket fence. you are basically in rock throwing distance of men [size=100] with windrose [/size]. and you can see the roof of the planetarium dome Behind the fence are several tall trees and overgrown bushes, If you look to your left you can see the house of the FOY property owner. I was not able to investigate this area any further because it was posted on the picket fence. "Nesting Birds" do not pass this point. That area needs further investigation. Maltedfalcon- This was what I found too. I stopped by the park a couple of days ago coming back through FL and noticed the weather vane/compass on top of the planetarium and thought it a good match for the "with wind rose" line. Here is the vane (I took pics but this is basically the same):

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Simon and the Pieman wind rose on HoJo in St. Augustine... near men with wind rose... Don't forget, anyway you cut it, this is also near men (simon + pieman or howard + johnson) with windrose: And the beginning of the SELOY acronym is SSS, or Simple Simon Says... Being buried at the base of the green picket fence and tall tree next to the HoJo entrance not only alleviates the concern of being buried in the park, but also puts it next to the wall that resembles Ponce's shirt. It also allows for someone to "solve the puzzle from their own house" and "find the casque in their own backyard."

simon says and simple simon are two different simons.

maltedfalcon wrote:: simon says and simple simon are two different simons. Ah, but you misread the intent of the hybrid: This was from Mother Goose... honk!

Some intersting aside on Simple Simon... "Simple Simon and the Pieman were used as the logo of Howard Johnson's restaurants from the 1930s onward. The logo was found on the weathervane on top of a cupola on the restaurants, and as well next to the door among other places. The chain was once nationwide in the USA but has now virtually disappeared." And the litany: The Hadas of Iberia: "Cuentos de Hadas ," published by Editorial Iberia , and written by Charles Perrault, is Spanish for "fairy tale." Perrault wrote the first "Stories of Mother Goose" in Spanish. Interestingly, the image that appears above in a publication of Mother Goose was illustrated by William Wallace Denslow (known by W.W., lots of repeated "W"words in the verse), who was "an American illustrator and caricaturist remembered for his work with author L. Frank Baum, especially his illustrations of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz," and for illlustrating a single edition of Mother Goose, which was the edition that he illustrated Simple Simon and the Pieman (above).

Here's an interesting one from a 1920 book: Fountain of Youth, Simon, Mother Goose, Haystack... what? Is this just proof you can connect whatever you want nowadays?

Haystack Rock?

erexere wrote:: Haystack Rock? [Head explodes] Yes... at Cannon Beach.

The sign in the planetarium vestibule quotes, The traverse board was a wooden "wind-rose" with eight holes... Each hole represented 1 Roman mile per hour of speed. The "wind rose" is self explanatory, but "men" doesn't make much sense when the sign continually says only one man is operating it. Near men Might this just be a play on the word "men"? A wind rose with 8 holes (hole = 1 Roman (pronounced ro-men ) or lots of Romans? Basically a play on the word "men"?

Very close to the wind rose located in the planetarium is a scale model of a ship with tiny sailors on it.

forest_blight wrote:: Very close to the wind rose located in the planetarium is a scale model of a ship with tiny sailors on it. Yeah... I'm just tinkering a bit.

Some healthy criticism on FOY: By all accounts, I still haven't seen any evidence that St. Augustine has a comprehensive connection to this verse.  The first line being attributed to the entrance is the only literal association that gives me pause for consideration.  The rest of the clues are just mashed together at random.  I can appreciate some non-linearity but not what's been demonstrated thus far.  If anything, with the last five lines holding the precious key to SELOY, I'd expect the actual attributing landmark to Seloy to be a direct indicator to the casque location.  All the verses seem to share a START HERE --> LINKS TO PATH or LINKS TO NEAREST PHYSICAL REFERENCE POINTS --> DIG HERE construction.  I'm working on a purely theoretical basis, but it holds for Cleveland and Chicago, so why not see the same process applied to St. Augustine? The conclusion that Image 6 best fits Verse 9 is less than ideal.  Sure there are no other good options in the image pool, and sure there's a rough FL outline and a Spanish explorer and then the vague image extractions or manipulations to compare it to a host of intricate locations...the weathervane, the windrose and it's ship replica of men, picket fences (take a guess on which seems a bad approach), etc.  The attribution to silver and limestone is extremely tenuous since it's easy to find references to silver or limestone just about anywhere.  I'd much rather prefer to focus on a site where limestone held some additional significance such as the Roche Harbor Lime and Cement company being distinguished as one of the earliest and largest exporters of quality limestone. I do like the approach to find literal connections to sites, but I'd like to see it go with some comprehensive plan as a focused effort to a spot.  You don't have that in you're approach, so you're efforts to find a casque result in guesswork.  I can only appreciate guesswork when it comes as a result of compensating for landscape alterations or some other missing elements as a result of 30 years of change. My attempts to conclude a location in San Juan Island, using Image 12 with this verse DO follow constraints that avoid random association.  I've chosen a spot for the acrostic as a whole, though I admit I need to play with adjusting four lines which doesn't alter the principal meaning of the verse or it's lines as a whole, based on a historic context.  SELBY or SELOY?  With Selby I am able to find a place that has significant only elements in which to focus attention: a flagpole, a fence, a historic plaque on a boulder, and a lighthouse in the distance.  The literality of the Daughters of the American Revolution being the "First Chapter" is rock solid.  It's on the plaque on Robert's Rock.  Their organization would've utilized Robert's Rules of Order just as any parliamentary organization where each member would make motion, vote, accept or reject, and move on with their meetings.  It's fitting that they honored Robert and the Redoubt.  The verse begins with looking for a chapter, and it ends with "Years pass, rain falls."  The first chapter is a clue about their organization being founded in Washington, and the acrostic tells us what corner and Camp in Washington to go to.  The Rock monument is involved in the conclusion of this puzzle as a physical direct reference to the casque location. I suppose anything looks random without understanding.  My understanding has unlocked the San Juan Island location.  I'd only be willing to consider FOY if there was a shred of consistency in what's been provided beyond "Look, here's a bunch of things that go with the picture and verse but nothing points directly to a spot."  It should be a simple convention of the physical surroundings to locate any of these casques.  It was so in Chicago, it was so in Cleveland.

Here is a YouTube video of the mean near the wind rose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF2aapUb700 This home video from (?) shows a small bit of the planetarium show (I think), and the famous geese before they disappeared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATql-oqhbo

forest_blight wrote:: Here is a YouTube video of the mean near the wind rose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF2aapUb700 This home video from (?) shows a small bit of the planetarium show (I think), and the famous geese before they disappeared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATql-oqhbo I have actually seen both of these, and I posted a frame grab of the geese over on the wiki. One thing that interested me was that the materials sign is composed in the same way that the line, "shells, limestone, silver, salt" is (salt and silver actually appear on the materials sign, but shells and limestone do not). Perhaps it is cluing us into the further use or signage, which seems to be VERY prevalent in this verse.

Not to be a dick, Erexere, but your post is filled with numerous false assertions and, quite frankly, if I didn't know better, I would think you were trying to throw the rest of us off track.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Not to be a dick, Erexere, but your post is filled with numerous false assertions and, quite frankly, if I didn't know better, I would think you were trying to throw the rest of us off track. I'm on a different track, that's all.  I'm not trying to throw you off track, or be a dick.  You may engage my post or ignore it.  I've stated my opinion and rarely have I criticized anyone's theories.  I'm not exactly good with my writing or skilled in debate.  I just have my own thoughts and I'm trying to work them out in a sensible way, supported by research and hopefully identifying a functional framework for solving these puzzles. Which of my assertions are false?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I have actually seen both of these, and I posted a frame grab of the geese over on the wiki... I just realized something... those are not gooses. Those are swans. Swans honk. How 'bout the trumpeter swan? And that is not a goose pond... that is the FOY Swan Pool. I always took the fact that there was a flock of geese on the merit that I heard it here. I was never able to actually substantiate it... anybody? hxxp://secretwiki.tomburns.net/images/c/c3/FOY_Goose_Pond.jpg - really a swan pool. hxxp://secretwiki.tomburns.net/images/3/3d/FOY_geese.jpg - not two gooses hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/White_swan-goose.JPG - swans hxxp://secretwiki.tomburns.net/images/e/e4/FOY_park_map.jpg - swan pool

A FOY remark, Something I discovered that connects smoothly with the weathervane.  The word origin for -vane applies to fane or fana meaning flag or banner.  Alternatively we have a weathercock, given the common usage of a rooster as an indicator. Wind direction is a notable connection given the mention of the wind rose.  If you really think the casque is in FOY, it makes sense to keep a strict line of sight on that ship shaped weathervane. On another note, which may be juvenile and considered taboo, I think the last line "years pass, rain falls" might be connected to "pi $ $ing".  Years = old people, which may pass "stones".  Alternatively, the subject of "erosion" would suggest an old stone object that has clear signs of erosion.  I'm sure everything in FOY looks old in that way...or is there something in particular that fits someone's FOY theory? When I consider the San Juan Island interpretation, I like the interpretive markers and tourist pamphlet that both highlight the prairie of tall grass and the abundance of glacial erratics that populate the landscape as if they fell from the sky...

erexere wrote:: On another note, which may be juvenile and considered taboo, I think the last line "years pass, rain falls" might be connected to "pi $ $ing".  Years = old people, which may pass "stones".  Alternatively, the subject of "erosion" would suggest an old stone object that has clear signs of erosion.  I'm sure everything in FOY looks old in that way...or is there something in particular that fits someone's FOY theory? tinajones!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: tinajones! I know weve been at this awhile so its fun to fool around and be humorous.  I was being somewhat serious that the last line had to do with erosion, a process which takes a long time (years pass) and the figurative sense of raining like cats and dogs but in this case thousands of stones left on a prairie by glacial drift.  Its an interesting landscape to consider and the easiesr way to describe it is to set up a hint about many stones like calculus (calculi...I forget how that works in plural) and then make a reference to rain.  Rain is often a word used to apply to many things falling at once so it shouldn't be assumed to be only to do with water. I wasn't serious about pi $$ ing...just found it to be innapropriately appropriate.

Unknown: ...or is there something in particular that fits someone's FOY theory?" I was responding directly to this. The tinajones sign at the park states the urns catch falling rainwater, and that they were there for hundreds of years; though, I know this does not give you pause for consideration... being all mish-mash and such .

Hirudiniforme wrote:: One thing that interested me was that the materials sign is composed in the same way that the line, "shells, limestone, silver, salt" is (salt and silver actually appear on the materials sign, but shells and limestone do not). I can not find the post but if my memory serves me correctly...there was something posted about the walls around the park, near that infamous picket fence, being constructed of shells and limestone.

If the sign at the entrance isn't enough to persuade you of "First Chapter Written In Water" then mull over this. If death is the last chapter in one's life, then the first chapter would be birth or youth. "The Fountain of Youth is a legendary spring that supposedly restores the youth of anyone who drinks or bathes in its waters." There is our first chapter and water.

Not sure how long this sign has been there but that sure looks like out man on the horse to me....right down to the red and yellow banner.

"The Park is most famous for its springs, also known as The Fountain of Youth. About 60 years ago, they built a beautiful [glow=red,2,300]Coquina[/glow] structure around the spring..." co·qui·na noun \kō-ˈkē-nə\ Definition of COQUINA 1 : a soft whitish limestone formed of broken shells and corals cemented together and used for building

fox wrote:: I can not find the post but if my memory serves me correctly...there was something posted about the walls around the park, near that infamous picket fence, being constructed of shells and limestone. Using the naturally occuring shells and limestone in coastal areas as building materials is not just specific to St. Augustine.

erexere wrote:: Using the naturally occuring shells and limestone in coastal areas as building materials is not just specific to St. Augustine. And neither are rock formations to Corbett. I never said it was specific to the area. It is just one more thing in a long list of things specific to FOY.

fox wrote:: And neither are rock formations to Corbett. I never said it was specific to the area. It is just one more thing in a long list of things specific to FOY. Im looking at a monument with a plaque.  Youre pointing out calcium carbonate like its something point specific.

The standard here is "preponderance of the evidence". There are so many concrete confirmers for the FoY park that it's just a matter of finding the exact spot. SELOY (not "SELBY"). All the words written on the signs (wind-rose, limestone, etc.). The conquistador and his striped pantaloons. Preiss seems to have had an east-coast bias. Not surprising, though. If there's a casque in Corbett, I'll eat my hat.

Perponderance has its use, but in this case quality is a better standard.  A great number of scattered clues lacking any sense of organzation compared to exactly enough clues organized in a specific and instructory way. Are you seriously getting behind the idea of random guessing just because you have a perponderance of loosely put together bits?  One of the bits is perfect, "the first chapter", but the rest are all over the place.  Such a setup doesn't lead to something intelligent (this is not meant as an insult) seems more or less generic AND without cause.

erexere wrote:: Are you seriously getting behind the idea of random guessing just because you have a preponderance(sp) of loosely put together bits? Seriously though, thats your methodology. The evidence that this picture/ verse points at FOY is pretty substantial.

bigmattyh wrote:: If there's a casque in Corbett, I'll eat my hat. Save some of that hat for me.

Are you being childish or joking? I reviewed the FOY theory and agreed that it has substance.  The problem is that substance is quite random.  You and nobody else has actually put together a satisfactory path interpreted or sensible solve based even remotely like the Cleveland and Chicago solutions, which aren't random at all. The problem with the FOY theory isn't that it lacks substance, it's that nobody other than myself is making any attempt at recognizing it's flaws or it's having the qualities of a red herring.  I submit my Corbett and San Juan Island theories in support of my argument that FOY is a red herring.  I also submit the lack of sufficient gains by anyone else in applying verse 5 or image 12 to any effect. maltedfalcon, as before, you've demonstrated a lot of skill in you're work in this hunt in the past, what's happened that now you're okay with making such a minimal nonsensical contribution to the discussion?

erexere wrote:: Are you being childish or joking? Unknown: I reviewed the FOY theory and agreed that it has substance.  The problem is that substance is quite random.  You and nobody else has actually put together a satisfactory path interpreted or sensible solve based even remotely like the Cleveland and Chicago solutions, which aren't random at all. Unknown: The problem with the FOY theory isn't that it lacks substance, it's that nobody other than myself is making any attempt at recognizing it's flaws or it's having the qualities of a red herring.  I submit my Corbett and San Juan Island theories in support of my argument that FOY is a red herring.  I also submit the lack of sufficient gains by anyone else in applying verse 5 or image 12 to any effect. Unknown: maltedfalcon, as before, you've demonstrated a lot of skill in you're work in this hunt in the past, what's happened that now you're okay with making such a minimal contribution to the discussion? Frankly, E, we think that same thing to ourselves nearly every time you post something. Why do you think your ideas have been segregated from the rest and are called "urban smurfing?" Nobody agrees with you about this. Nobody is attempting to recognize flaws in the FOY theory anymore because, at this point, there aren't any. The research was done long before you and I came along to prove this. Members went back and forth, narrowing down the verse's lines and the pictures in the image. Sure, the exact dig spot has not been identified, but that is only because there are multiple spots that fit the verse's descriptions (depending on the interpretation), and because we haven't been allowed to dig at those spots. Chicago didn't identify an exact spot either -- it took some trial and error digging and some hinting from BP. The more you try to refute the theory and call it a red haring, the more it seems you are straight trolling us. His contribution is on the table. What more is there to add? The only thing left to do is try several dig spots. Your posts are also not conducive to discussion. When you repeat over and over again that 2 + 2 is 5, what can we possibly say? If you can't/won't accept that it is 4, we have nothing to discuss. I'm really not trying to be mean, and this certainly isn't my forum (please speak up if I've spoken for you out of place in this thread), but your latest posts are really unnerving. You keep stating in that you are revealing BP's insights to us all, that we all have so much to discuss... It's belittling and arrogant. It's almost enough to make me quit checking the posts and work completely on my own. It's hard to even follow the posts anymore because the forums are so filled with irrelevant shit. You have to read through 8 pages of nonsense to find anything relating to the accepted theories. There's no cohesion anymore in the threads, which has played a large part in the degradation of new ideas.

I've been brave and altruistic thinking I could get past self imposed hurdles in this hunt.  You aren't being mean.  Your input deserves some respect.  You bothered typing a bunch more words tyan most people in response to me.  The problem is you have such a stinky opinion.  Challenging ideas is nothing new.  Being really thoughtful about this puzzle is still a hurdle.  Acting like you have achieved all that much and then not showing a mature attitude about overcoming possible problems that nobody has yet brought to light is your own downfall. I'm not revealing BP's insights.  I'm asking significant questions and directly stating what I'm seeing in a dictionary from the EXACT words BP used.  What's wrong with testing a logical approach?  I'm declaring my hypothesis for his methodology and seeing what comes of it and for the most part I'm not holding back.  I don't care if it supports my own location theory or someone elses.  Being precise with a careful approach is all I care about.  You're calling THAT arrogant, I think you're being closeminded.

erexere wrote:: Challenging ideas is nothing new.  Being really thoughtful about this puzzle is still a hurdle. There are no hurdles The path is straight A one hundred meter dash. You are looking for debris on the track To jump over And wind around. On the way to the finish line You wonder off the track Following a litter-strewn path. Broken Coke bottles and cigarette butts lead To a group on a court Playing horse. It's a pick-up game But every time you take a shot You use your legs. You keep thinking how close this game is To hackysack and soccer and poker and golf And shuffleboard and bowling. Then you turn around and ask the court why The ball is in the bushes And the race has stopped.

Wow, that's evocative. Did you compose that on the spot? Pretty good. From my perspective, there's nothing wrong with trying to refute another's ideas, as long as it does not turn ad hominem. It has occurred to me more than once how much like a microcosm of science this forum is. All conjectures and refutations , with the occasional paradigm-shifting discovery that keeps us all on the treadmill. In science, progress is made mainly by attempts to disprove others' ideas, so that only the strong, defensible ideas remain. That said, the ideas that have created a large degree of consensus are worth keeping around for awhile so that we can wring every drop of potential from them, exploring every nook and cranny of their implications before dismissing them. It is not only creative suggestions, but also refutations of existing ideas (plus a little serendipity), that will eventually lead to the next casque. But we can't simply flit from idea to idea, abandoning those that have won a large degree of support over the years. We need to maintain a hard core of good theories while we provisionally entertain auxiliary hypotheses . If these auxiliary hypotheses withstand criticism, then in time they will be added to the hard core of theory. We've got some hard core theories that are well-nigh irrefutable at this point. They include virtually everything connected with the Chicago and Cleveland finds, the themes of month, birthstone, birthflower, and latitudes and longitudes. Some general locations are now so obvious that it would take a mountain of evidence to contradict them (e.g., Charleston). I would argue that our energy is better spent trying to build on these solid theories. If we don't find a casque this way, it's because we aren't trying hard enough.

forest_blight wrote:: Wow, that's evocative. Did you compose that on the spot? Pretty good. Yeah, thanks. It wan't really meant to be mean-ly evocative... I hope it didn't come across that way. It just seemed easier to describe how I felt using metaphor, wordplay and symbolism. No homo.

Just out of curiosity, how many people make up the so called consensus?

Consensus on what issue?

erexere wrote:: Perponderance has its use, but in this case quality is a better standard.  A great number of scattered clues lacking any sense of organzation compared to exactly enough clues organized in a specific and instructory way. Are you seriously getting behind the idea of random guessing just because you have a perponderance of loosely put together bits?  One of the bits is perfect, "the first chapter", but the rest are all over the place.  Such a setup doesn't lead to something intelligent (this is not meant as an insult) seems more or less generic AND without cause. Scattered clues? Scattered clues? Do you mean like a set of columns which are nowhere near a wall which does not have the lion fountain on it nor does it have a centaur sitting atop it which really isnt near the Terminal Tower which really is not beneath 2 countries which which which which. Those were all scattered all over the place but they were ALL there...somewhere, and a casque was found. Why is this so hard to understand? Save some hat for me guys........ .....and I, along with almost everyone on these boards is the consensus.

Most likely nothing but I thought I would share. If you go all the way down (south) Magnolia St it dead ends at Myrtle where the FOY ends. There is a nice gate there with a large tree next to the coquina wall. South of that is a beautiful white house surrounded by a white picket fence. Do you think that fence might have ever been green? The shutters and trim of the house are green. Looks like a nice quite place to bury something in my opinion.

No fox.  The Chicago and Cleveland settings are not scattered.  The clues are followed and referenced in a coherent manner.  A lot of discussion has taken place to consider how each clue works in either solve.  That same cohesiveness of elements is what I would expect all those irrefutable clues in FOY to have as well, but nobody has really been successful.  Stercox made a scetch awhile back that attempted to do that.  That was cool, but he failed to find a cask and although it remains a work in progress there still doesn't seem to be a real assignable sense of clue identifcation and process as good or clear [in FOY] as there was in Cleveland or Chicago.  That clarity and cohesion, even in retrospect, is in essence what makes sense.  I'm not seeing anyone yet promoting the same kind of adherence to clues in FOY and so it looks no better than a park filled with possibilities in many different directions or randomness as I've dared to call it. Wouldn't it be nice to see a clear path in a framework?  FOY has undergone many developements in the last three decades which is a good reason nobody has managed a very sharp game plan to recover the casque, but even so, why aren't we seeing something that narrows things down a little better but then becomes clearer what part of the puzzle is missing as a result of alteration?  I would think that place in the process might be better identified or at least partially so, casque or no casque we might still have that satisfying sense of retrospection, then it wouldn't look like a random jumble of clues. Tell you what, my theory for Stanley Park in Vancouver BC looks a lot like a tourist track all around.  Its a little simpler to consider since they are spread out a bit and there's clear pathways.  Ive identified those as supporting clues because wach is so similar in its function as a spot defined on the map for tourist stops: the Hollow Tree, PJ memorial, Lumbermans Arch, Nine o'Clock Gun, etc.  Ultjmately they seem to make a periphery and in the "epicenter" is the giant checkerboards.  In that sense I feel its a guided, structured framework.  If FOY is trying to to that then its not yet clear how the map is being used.  Perhaps FOY is just a little higher on the difficulty scale, but I'm not even seeing how to qualify that process.  Each of its clues are mostly assigned by US rather than a firm set map on a pamphlet with specific main points.  It looks like snippets here and there only support making guesswork...is that seriously what you are satisfied with as a process?  At what point are we no longer contending with the product of Preiss' mind and only facing three decades of change? FB, I wondered how many people, a rough estimation, are involved with this hunt.  I suppose I can go back through these threads and start making a list of names.

FYI, I will be at the Fountain of Youth this Sunday looking at all the "random clues," as Erexere calls it. I have spoken with the owner of the FoY, and he is going to make an attempt to meet me there where we can put our heads together.  Since it has been in his family for nearly 100 years, he will be able to recall how it looked in 1980, and where all of the green picket fences were.  He explained to me that there is just no way to dig without first getting permission from the city, and an archeologist present to supervise it.  Maybe next time!  I will be bringing my steel rod probe with me, though, just in case I am allowed to do that. If anyone has any requests on what I should check out, let me know.  I think I have a pretty good idea of everything that has been posted, though.  This will be my 3rd visit to the FoY. Erexere, while "out of the box" thinking is certainly encouraged in this forum, I think what most people do not like is that you appear to be saying that the majority's theory is "hogwash."  I think if you do not go that far, then everyone will be fine, and would be glad to review your "out of the box" theories. As for the FoY, Image 6, and Verse 9, there are just too many clues in my opinion for it to be anything else.  The clincher for me is the sign that talks about shell and limestone, the silver salt cellar, and the word "casque."  I actually think this is probably where BP got the word "casque" from, since he probably misconstrued it to mean "container," whereas it actually means "helmet."  If he was not at the FoY, why in the world would he call these treasure casques? The "stars pass by day" reference is also a dead clue for a planetarium.  The first chapter on the front gate.  Magnolia Ave with large bending branches.  Green picket fences all around.  Ponce de Leon on a rock.  The outline of Florida in the Image.  Remember that Illinois was in the Chicago pic, and Ohio was in the Cleveland pic! Etc. Etc. Etc.  Erexere, there are just too many clues pointing to the FoY.  They are not directionless.  The treasure is hidden at the base of a tall tree, behind bending branches and a green picket fence.  IMHO, the key to finding it is figuring out what the word "behind" means.  That is the key for me.

Hi Egbert - Always great to hear from you. Good luck with FOY. Can I ask you something? People have often said that the story has nothing to do with the puzzle. I can't see that myself, since it contains a reference to the Fountain of Youth for a start. I think the idea probably originates with a quote on the forum from when you spoke with BP and reported that the part of the book which follows the verses (the Field Guide) contains no clues. I was wondering, do you remember him saying anything which suggests we should disregard the story part of the book which precedes the verses...? What's your personal take on it...? Regards, WR

Egbert wrote:: If anyone has any requests on what I should check out, let me know Yes yes yes yes  ;) Magnolia, corner behind cannon, and beside wall other side of one of those trees, near planetarium, palm thing or whatever.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Hi Egbert - Always great to hear from you. Good luck with FOY. Can I ask you something? People have often said that the story has nothing to do with the puzzle. I can't see that myself, since it contains a reference to the Fountain of Youth for a start. I think the idea probably originates with a quote on the forum from when you spoke with BP and reported that the part of the book which follows the verses (the Field Guide) contains no clues. I was wondering, do you remember him saying anything which suggests we should disregard the story part of the book which precedes the verses...? What's your personal take on it...? Regards, WR That is what BP said to me, when I asked him about the story in the beginning of the book.  He shook his head and said "No, the story will not help you find the treasures," or something like that.  It has been a while, and I was with him all day talking.  However, even though he said that, there are too many connections to just ignore it.  His purpose in writing the book was not just to hide treasures.  He was also trying to create a mythological story for North America, and was hoping those amusing creatures would "catch on" in the back of the book.  So, the whole setup for the myth was the story at the beginning of the book.  So, my guess is that he is telling the story of where each nationality went in America, and which jewels they took with them.  So, yes, I think that mentioning the FoY by the Hadas of Iberia, means that there is a treasure hidden in that area, and it has to do with Spain.

Sir Egbert, I totally grasp all that you've taken trouble to explain.  I've found the FOY particulars to be quite convincing in their content but only enough to justify a planned Red Herring.  What you call directions are indeed directions, and yet they haven't been strictly orientated yet, thus any direction is as good as guessing, see my point?  The planetarium s a great result, but what is th e nature of its significance?  Does it play a role like the Terminal Tower in Cleveland or does it represent the nearby Italian Fountain or is it a very close point for reference?   How does a big dome shape basically work in th is case?  Or is it the weather vane?  Lots of questions...maybe the owner will finally help address those loose ends.  My problem with people here is that there is ample room for thought experimentation and yet people haven't demonstrated much of that sort of treatment from a truly constrained perspective.  I've done so in my out of the box work, that is my most recent work, which is stimulating a lot of thought.  I'm not focusing empty and negative criticism on anyone here.  I'm not calling hogwash on anyone.  I'm working very independently and the implcation is only "here is a different idea".  While I acknowledge that I am challenging the favored theories, I am teying to be clear in asking for some evidence in peoples methodology.  I started the methodology thread for that reason.  Take a good hard look at peoples language and candid disfavor directed at me and you'll see how poorly this forums users have treated the institution of real discussion.  My interest isnt in offending you or anyone.  I am in a position to defend a difficult perspective, I'd appreciate it if people would move beyond pettiness.  If you must lable it "out of the box" on a permanent basis, so be it, but let the discussion be fair and free from overt dismissiveness.  in the end I expect to have made many mistakes, but in that effort achieve real progress.

Good luck to you Sir Egbert. May I suggest that you take tons of pics and perhaps pictures that we just can't get from google. For example all along the inside edge of the shell fence, the opposite side of the planetarium and maybe even panoramic pics of certain spots in the park.

Just did a search of keywords from the verse trying to find more ties to FOY. I'm sure it's been done a million times. I could probably tie anything to FOY if I really tried. But I figured I would share what I found anyways. Did a search of FOY with each line of the verse. Somehow got this random Longfellow poem quote... "Like the Kingdom of Heaven, the Fountain of Youth is within us; If we seek it elsewhere, old shall we grow in the search." Thought nothing of it but I searched Longfellow with some verse words anyways just in case there was a connection. Found this poem line... " Ships that pass in the night and speak each other in passing; Only a signal shown and a distant voice in the darkness ; So on the ocean of life we pass and speak one another, Only a look and a voice; then darkness again and a silence." Sounds like "Sails pass by night / Even in darkness" Two unrelated poems by Longfellow with random keywords linking FOY and sails passing in the night. There's no rhyme or reason. I'm sure I could link any poet to an FOY quote somewhere. That's why I think it's nothing but I know Longfellow was brought up for Boston so I found it interesting. Longfellow also wrote the poem "Moonlight". Too bad I couldn't connect it to teardrops though. Just want everyone to know that there's still people hammering away at this thing. Not all is lost.

Deuce, I like the Longfellow delvings.  The metaphor of ships in the night sparks some thought.

rookhunter wrote:: Good luck to you Sir Egbert. May I suggest that you take tons of pics and perhaps pictures that we just can't get from google. For example all along the inside edge of the shell fence, the opposite side of the planetarium and maybe even panoramic pics of certain spots in the park. Yes, pictures of the shells on the wall. I wondered if there would be a particular pattern of shells or texture that matched the rock markings in the image as a confirmation that gives the exact place to dig. oops, I am too late.

erexere wrote:: Are you being childish or joking? Oh sorry, didn't read the whole message, and didn't realize you were talking to me.  no I was being serious. I was inferring that a lot of your methodologies seem to be random word associations based on loosely put together bits. ie. your path to arrive at the west coast based on the montreal legeater. and I'm not saying thats not a valid methodology.  I'm saying it struck me funny that you would say that, when it seemed to me you do that alot. It is possible that not every clue has meaning, Is longfellow signiificant in this hunt, possibly are the other authors, Stevenson, etc. significant, possibly, or they could have actually no bearing at all on the hunt or as clues other than, BP used the words to make the verses sound better.

okay, I think I understand better now that you've explained some more. I have delivered a lot of loose association based ideas, like anyone who is brainstorming from a fresh perspective.  That being true in the past, it's up to me to do a better job outlining my current and future attempts so my process is clearer to those who are skimming the forums.  When there's little to no hard evidence, especially for the outside-the-box style thinkers, it's hard to differentiate the good from the bad. You're right, it is funny that I've suddenly developed a concern for the difference between a loose methodology or a constrained one.  I have to say it's because I've gathered enough experience handling bad theories to know that it's time I really focus on a sharper line of questioning.  While I'm working out the bugs in my own theories, I'm trying to apply the same level of criticism to any other theories including FOY.  Since I've introduced a competing theory and I've raised the question that there might be a red herring involved, I want to treat the situation fairly.  For all I know, FOY is correct and San Juan Island is the red herring.  A few people here have already discussed the possibility of red herrings.  They might consider the topic closed, but I remain skeptical.  I think we're still super-green in our understandings of the puzzles having only two out of a tweleve range of discovery.  We're still in an extremely limited zone for extrapolation. Verse 9 is so poetic.  Seeing the acrostic reference in the Keats-epitaph words would be solid if the entirety of the verse contributed, but only settling on the last 5 lines is what made me suspicious from the start.  I thought it would be silly to take all 15-lines as a 15-letter anagram, but when I looked at adjusting four lines, a relatively small adjustment, to make the TONWWASAYSSELBY acrostic, I thought that's less of a crazy anagram and more as a "here's a puzzle that's easy to get if you just toy with it a bit".  I'm inclined to think FOY is the red herring because it's references come with less work to perceive each bit of information.  *SELOY is plain in it's presentation, "The First Chapter" is exactly as you see the words at the entrance to the park, etc.  Wherever any of these puzzles lead us, I would think it's quickly understood that once establishing a good sense for having found the start of the puzzle, then it's just a matter of working out the rest.  There's bound to be some stumbling blocks, but then we should be discussing them and I think breaking through them now that we have a good collective of minds here at q4t.  You see my point, don't you?  There's some nagging dead-ends and nagging guesswork operating in the FOY perspective.  I wonder if the poetic reference is persistent in some respect.  Are we looking for eptiaph like places at FOY or San Juan Island?  I wonder if the focus on teardrops and the moon as a "wolf" ties in somehow.  These may be loose ideas at this point, but working with a constrained methodology while keeping an open mind on what we might not have noticed in the Cleveland or Chicago solves is the approach I'm trying to have. So don't be dissuaded from my past mistakes, or take my push for a San Juan Island or Corbett theory as an affront to those focused solely on FOY.  Let's just treat it fairly.

Hello everyone.  I went to the Fountain of Youth this past Sunday and met with the owner. We did not have that long to talk, but it was still wonderful getting to walk around the park again and see the various connections between the park and the verse. I have pics that I would like to post, but I really do not know how to do that.  If someone could let me know, I will post them. The information I received was helpful, but not in the way you would think.  For example, many of the palms that are candidates for where the treasure may be, were not very tall 30 years ago.  That knocked out my prime candidate of the palm tree near the driveway entrance, next to the green picket fence which is perpendicular to Magnolia Ave.  In addition, many tall palms from 30 years ago have been removed either by choice, or from storms.  The owner is going to see if he has photos from back then, and if he does, he will let me know. As for the old entrance at the South end of the park, that was closed to the public decades ago, and BP would not have had access in 1980.  It was "a mess" back then, and the fence there was not green, as far as the owner recalls.  He confirmed, though, that the green picket fences are pretty much the ones that "the consensus" has agreed on (there was an overhead photo posted earlier in this thread on it). There was both a goose pen and a duck pond, again in the same place that we thought they were.  There was also only 1 security guard back then, so BP would have had to be careful back then.  So, perhaps this means that he would not have buried it in the middle of the park.

The most disappointing news, though, is that when we were looking at the planetarium display case, he was pretty sure that the wind rose was not there 30 years ago, and he did not recall whether the ship cutaway with the little men was there.  So, the "near men with wind rose" becomes quite a puzzler. In 1980, the park had a lot more "overgrowth," with lots of tall bamboo all over the place, along with oleanders.  Bending branches?  Tall grass?  Possibly.  I also noticed that out by the water, there was tall grass below the wall of the park.  So, if you are standing on the wall, you would be "over the tall grass."  However, the wall was not there 30 years ago!  It was just a slow degradation from the park into the water, with tall grass at the water.  The tall bamboo was near the Ponce de Leon statue, and on the side of the park near the Globe Discovery theater, and the various little buildings of the indian village displays.  The bamboo was also on the north side of the park. As for Magnolia Avenue, there was only 1 house on the street back then - the one across from where the green picket fence meets the wall.  So, if BP was going to bury something there (and there are a couple of trees there), he would be in danger of being seen, even at night.  However, the owner did not know if that area was lit up at night, so maybe BP would not have been seen. There is no way to dig at the park without getting special permission from the owner, the city, and a supervising archaeologist.  The owner seems to have been a bit "ticked" by all of the treasure hunters that have contacted him over the past few years.  I am hoping that he will continue to communicate with me, so I can get more info and photos that only he will have.  I will let you know if I get anything interesting.  Sorry I do not have more exciting news.

All very interesting, Egbert! I'm really torn about the "wind-rose" news. On the one hand, I find it really hard to believe that with all the signage references in the verse, BP would have accidentally/coincidentally chosen the words "wind rose;" especially, with all the seeming references to the planetarium. On the other hand, this makes the Simon and the Pieman... SSS... theory a little more interesting - A wind rose that was most certainly there 30 years ago. The stuff about the bamboo is also a tangible wrench. As you pointed out, it fits the bill for both "bending branches" and "over the tall grass." Also, was there seriously NO houses on Magnolia, assuredly? Even across from the park? Glad you got to make a trip, and I hope you had a great adventure!

OK... this may be a stretch, but I kinda like it... Even in darkness (can't see = blind) Like moonlight in teardrops (Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata = deaf) Super moving tune. hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0WMYCtOqeU St. Augustine Deaf and Blind Institute is just down the street. I could swear that the window above the door is the shape on the flag:

Thanks for the report Egbert - I like the bamboo idea...but feel the chances of finding a casque at FOY have just dropped considerably.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: OK... this may be a stretch, but I kinda like it... Even in darkness (can't see = blind) Like moonlight in teardrops (Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata = deaf) Super moving tune. hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0WMYCtOqeU St. Augustine Deaf and Blind Institute is just down the street. I could swear that the window above the door is the shape on the flag: Nice catch on the banner. Is there anything else around the institute that raises possibilities? Blind/deaf idea is intriguing.

Thanks for the report Egbert. Great work. If your pics are on your cellphone, try a Dropbox, Flickr or even Photobucket account so you can upload them and share them from your cell. We need ground penetrating scans to find most of these treasures, this is becoming more and more clear. I'm going to refocus my efforts to finding a reasonable cost GPR or something similar. If we had such a device then we could scan these areas and show the evidence to the people we need to ask permission from.

hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/102050593@ ... 601526884/ Hopefully, the above link will work.  This is my first attempt to post my photos.  I am using flickr.

those are great shots! thanks!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I'm really torn about the "wind-rose" news. On the one hand, I find it really hard to believe that with all the signage references in the verse, BP would have accidentally/coincidentally chosen the words "wind rose;" especially, with all the seeming references to the planetarium. On the other hand, this makes the Simon and the Pieman... SSS... theory a little more interesting - A wind rose that was most certainly there 30 years ago. I would agree, except that a wind rose is *not* the same thing as a weather vane. These are different objects. If BP had meant weather vane, he would have written weather vane.

You'd be hard pressed to make me believe that most copula-style weather vane's are not considered wind roses, including the one on the planetarium and the HoJo. Where am I going wrong? And unfortunately, if BP had meant weather vane, he probably wouldn't have written "weather vane." It would have been some simile. if he was that straight forward, we would have found many more casques by now.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You'd be hard pressed to make me believe that most copula-style weather vane's are not considered wind roses, including the one on the planetarium and the HoJo. Where am I going wrong? I am relying on the dictionary definition of "wind rose": TheFreeDictionary : A meteorological diagram depicting the distribution of wind direction and speed at a location over a period of time. Merriam-Webster : A diagram showing for a given place the relative frequency or frequency and strength of winds from different directions. Dictionary.com : 1. a map symbol showing, for a given locality or area, the frequency and strength of the wind from various directions. 2. a diagram showing the relation of wind direction to other weather conditions at a given location. A wind rose simply isn't the same thing as a weathervane. TheFreeDictionary : A device for indicating wind direction. Merriam-Webster : An object that is usually put on the top of a roof and that has an arrow that turns as the wind blows to show the direction of the wind. Dictionary.com : A device, as a rod to which a freely rotating pointer is attached, for indicating the direction of the wind. A weathervane and a wind rose are different things, plain and simple.

Unknown: wind 1  (wnd) n. 1. a. Moving air, especially a natural and perceptible movement of air parallel to or along the ground. b. A movement of air generated artificially, as by bellows or a fan. ... 6. a. Something that disrupts or destroys: the winds of war Wind rose is two words.  Wind means one thing, rose means one thing. The disagreement between two people can be called a wind. Something that rises or escalates = rose. (past tense of rise ) Wind rose = escalation of conflict = war.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."  ---Sigmund Freud

erexere wrote:: Wind rose is two words.  Wind means one thing, rose means one thing. The disagreement between two people can be called a wind. Something that rises or escalates = rose. (past tense of rise ) Wind rose = escalation of conflict = war. Yes, I suppose it could. But why can't it just mean It all fits with PDL sailing across the ocean and landing (sure, it is questioned by historians...but it what we have been taught) at St Augistine Fl. Why don't we just find a toy rose bush that can be wound up? Wind+Rose.

Honestly, I came to the thoughts about "near men" = pigs and "wind rose" = conflict escalation, after a long process of st Yuri mbling over foolish ideas.  Navigating this as a puzzle precludes that a wind rose doesn't have to be a simple navigational instrument.  I'm just looking at the word relationships.  I'm certain Preiss chooses an appropriate setting to apply the sea exploration words but he chooses them with care.  That's why its not a total loss to consider alternatives to the simplistic side of things.  I'm thinking we will have success only if we use our heads and separate out the stock typical business.  Use our dictionaries.

erexere wrote:: Honestly, I came to the thoughts about "near men" = pigs and "wind rose" = conflict escalation. FYI, Eric, this is what others are referring to when they argue that you're trying to force the clues to fit your solution. You seem like you want the San Juan Islands and/or Corbett to be a solution so badly that you could probably stretch any verse to fit.

I'm aware.  I have thought in a practical sense, "for a place where its historicaly well known for an event called the Pig War, does anything in the verse fit?"  I don't think its a force fit at all.  I defined a structured process, opened a dictionary, and posted a conclusion that fits the process.  My concern for it having to fit San Juan Island is not in any way part of my science.  You can choose to focus on your opinion or you can refer to my methodology, ope n a dictionary, and see where it leads you. Pig War as derivable from an intelligent reading of two lines of verse is a huge confirmer for San Juan Island.

This is where you seem to have a hard time understanding why there's so much when you present your theories. "Near men" could literally mean thousands of different things. Monkeys. Dogs. Women. Statues. You choose pigs, because it leads you to San Juan. Same for "wind rose". You choose "conflict escalation" because it leads you to San Juan. Your methodology is that you choose a solution first and then open the dictionary to find how it can get you there.

I posed San Juan Island as an option.  What all fits is purely part of a process.  I understand the fallacy involved.  Now, do you understand critical thinking, trial and error, and blind assumption?

erexere wrote:: I posed San Juan Island as an option.  What all fits is purely part of a process.  I understand the fallacy involved.  Now, do you understand critical thinking, trial and error, and blind assumption? For years, you've advocated San Juan Island as an option that makes more sense than the Fountain of Youth park , in spite of a mountain of concrete confirmers for FoY. There's no methodology to what you're doing. You want there to be a casque in the Pacific Northwest. You'll Google and triangulate until you find something that makes it so. I think you ought to consult your dictionary on whether "critical" is a synonym for "wishful".

So you don't think its possible that Preiss wouldve used the line "the first chapter" in a clever way?  Whether I'm wishful or not, I see the words at the entrance to FOY as a very straightforward clue, but I'm unable to ignore that the Daughters of the American Revolution organized their first chapter in the state of Washington.  There's no "maybe" or "force fit" there.  That represents two possible points which may be critically evaluated in tandem.  Ultimately they are competing theories so we might have to submit to one being more valid but there's wiggle room for both to be valid if we were to prove FOY was designed as the red herring. Don't you that nk that's a reasonable question and approach given how little we actually know to be confirmed in this hunt?

erexere wrote:: So you don't think its possible that Preiss would've used the line "the first chapter" in a clever way?  Whether I'm wishful or not, I see the words at the entrance to FOY as a very straightforward clue, but I'm unable to ignore that the Daughters of the American Revolution organized their first chapter in the state of Washington.  There's no "maybe" or "force fit" there.  That represents two possible points which may be critically evaluated in tandem. I actually completely agree with this, E. However, when critically evaluating these two interpretations in tandem, we have to see them in context. If we evaluated each line on its own, there would be endless possibilities. The fact that "The First Chapter" is a signage clue, like many of the other clues in the verse seem to be, makes FOY a much more reasonable solution than the other that relies on many different genre and interpretation methods of the lines in the verse.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: If we evaluated each line on its own, there would be endless possibilities. The fact that "The First Chapter" is a signage clue, like many of the other clues in the verse seem to be, makes FOY a much more reasonable solution than the other that relies on many different genre and interpretation methods of the lines in the verse. I agree. If we do not evaluate the first line on its own but rather combine it with the second, it becomes a two-fold clue to FOY: The first chapter (on the FOY gate sign) Written in water (oblique reference to the FOY itself)

Pig war? Wow, ok. Why not the Bay of Pigs? It is more well known...and it was in Cuba, off the coast of Florida. This is precisely how force fitting ideas works. We should focus on where the clues have taken us, not where we can take the clues.

fox wrote:: Pig war? Wow, ok. Why not the Bay of Pigs? It is more well known...and it was in Cuba, off the coast of Florida. This is precisely how force fitting ideas works. We should focus on where the clues have taken us, not where we can take the clues. I'm okay with Pig War because I like how it plays with the introductory lines of verse.  If it weren't for Spain's explorations, and later the Hudson Bay Company and early American settlers, San Juan Island may have ended up as part of the Russian claim.  The beginning of San Juan Island came with it's settlements.  The fact was that San Juan Island was in flux and the Pig War stirred things up enough that it had to be settled whether the British would hold governance or the USA.  That is the story that begins the first chapter of San Juan Island. I wouldn't consider Cuba, because I've never heard that Preiss buried a casque in Cuba.  Also, I don't think the Bay of Pigs is really considered part of the first chapter of Cuba's history.

erexere wrote:: I wouldn't consider Cuba, because I've never heard that Preiss buried a casque in Cuba. Please supply the link where you heard BP buried a casque in Oregon. I must have missed it.

I understood that he buried one in Canada and the rest in the USA.  Sorry, I don't know where the link is, or whether that excludes Hawaii and Alaska.  Cuba just seems way off.  At least Oregon is in the contiguous US.

I never said there was one in Cuba. I said Cuba is off the coast of Florida. Perhaps Oregon residents did not learn that Florida is part of the contiguous states.

Okay then.  Did you want to discuss you're Bay of Pig's idea further in how it relates to St. Augustine?  I'm open to that, but I'd probably fit it into the red herring category.

No I do not want to discuss my Bay of Pigs theory. I do not have that theory. It was simply another example of a force fit. What I do consider discussing however, is the rock solid FoY theory. That's what needs to be focused on. Not pig wars, pig bays, pickled pigs feet, not pork rinds.

“The time has come,” the Walrus said, “To talk of many things: Of shoes – and ships – and sealing wax – Of cabbages - and kings – And why the sea is boiling hot – And whether pigs have wings.” --- Lewis Carroll, “The Walrus and the Carpenter”

No dictionaries were opened in the creation of these verses. None are needed now.

Just added some more photos that I had for the FoY. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/102050593@N07/

Hey Egbert, any word on FOY? Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk

No, for a couple of reasons.  First, the FoY owner was extremely busy over the past couple of months, with the Mumford & Sons concert, the Ponce de Leon celebration, and the usual holidays.  Also, my friend who was helping me on this came down with a severe illness, was hospitalized, and is only now just recovering.  I am hoping to rekindle things over the next few weeks.

Let me know if I can help too! I'm in the region anyway! I have some pictures from last July when we were there I will Dropbox and link. I'd like to follow the development with the site! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just read through this entire forum. Great analysis guys. Why now silent? With the recent Reddit and Boing Boing posts and the upcoming documentary, I expected lots of new interest.

Hold up...suppose I was getting ready to write a book, but the first chapter is written in water...does that mean I cant proceed to write the next chapter because the first has vanished? I figure this is just a book metaphor in place of a story or historical event that could've developed into something significant but never did.

Only yesterday I realized I nobody seemed to pick up on the basic premise that guided me to the Far-From-FOY theory. f_b pointed out that SELOY was genius. Nobody liked SELBY, lost in absurd obscurity..(obsurdity?). My premise was that "Written in water" connects us to several notions or options 1) a british connection, 2) a connection to poetry, 3) a connection to grave markers or "mourning", tears, or something of that nature, 4) an acrostic, 5) or something to do with waves (water or radio..). Evidently everyine was sold on the simple idea of option 4, and SELOY was a plainly spelled option that fit a well-formed case for FL. What bothered me most about this was the conditions that applied to KEATS, being the not just the subject of an acrostic but being a pesons name. Seloy is the name of a native people, i get that, but there is something very personal about the epitaph and I wondered if our task was something of a greater challenge. When I made minir line adjustments to the poem to see if the acrostic might hide anything substantial, I came up with the case for Selby. To NW WA says Selby really took hold. It contained a pair of initials from a windrose and a state abbr. It seemed reasonable to assume that the phrase wouldve been to easy to spot acrostically if it contained words like TO and SAYS followed by the name SELBY, and so it made sense to have four lines shifted about to create a simple disguising effect resulting in ...AYSSSELOY, a spot on link to FOY. If the lines werent shifted our minds would quickly be set to figure out who or what is SELBY. I would expect the British place name of a town might be worth consideration given the British origin of Keats. That Selby may also be a surname makes this puzzle more interesting and fits the premise that the reason for the acrostic is to discover the identity of a person and not a tribe of people or a place. There is less of a leap in logic in that sense and so that is why I find it difficult to understand why people remain so set on FOY.

mostly because by the time you get the the verse you absolutely have to be narrowing down your field of search rather than expanding it and taking it afar. and for the simple reason, the word Seloy is on a marker in plain sight at the FOY. making it more likely a simple confirmer, rather then a deep indiciperable clue. You don't need to know any history or do any research to solve for Seloy, its just right there at FOY. So basically 3 verse items windrose, First chapter and seloy indicate definitively the FOY, before you even begin to analyze the verse, They are sitting there in plain sight.

I understand completely. I think you fail to address the issue that KEATS' name, while in the form of an acrostic is NOT spelled out anywhere in plain form. Seloy, in acrostic AND spelled out plainly at FOY isnt the same situation, nor is SELOY a person's name. If I wrote four sentences out of order in any paragraph of 15 sentences, I wager you would get the same meaning out of it as a whole. I'd accept the criticism that the flow of ideas could be improved, but I don't believe you would claim my paragraph was "indecipherable." Lets discuss this.

actually to clarify, I would also like to point out seloy is indecipherable also. it is not a clue to guide you to the area. it is a site confirmer. No need to decipher it as it's has no deeper levels.

In terms of ciphers, the acrostic and/or a jumble are hardly anything indecipherable. Also, I'm only looking at the first two lines to get us to the idea that SELBY is a subject of interest, there's no shortage of verse to help us find some place. Let's stop skirting the issue and discuss this plainly. KEATS is the name of a person. You're adherence to a site confirmer in FOY seems to only say "use an acrostic but ignore anything else that may be significant about using the English poet's grave site as a reference". It hardly seems logical to act on the simplicity of an idea at the risk of ignoring so much else.

I guess my point was it's indecipherable simply because There is no hidden meaning , or multi-level encryption. Its like the Archer in the Chicago image. a Site confirmer. So for me to consider another location, I would like the clues to become clearer, not more obfuscated.

I remember the historical idea about the Cleveland location regarding the 1881 tomb of President Garfield which isn't very far from the Cultural Gardens. I feel that there's bound to be some historical purpose to each of these puzzles. It seems all we have here is a clue to Keats death...shouldn't we consider that date or the location of his tomb and see if it might offer any relavance to a person or place?

but didnt the 1881 tomb have nothing to do with the cleveland casque? wasn't it a red herring that actually led farther afield?

I don't think so. I think it was a nice visual link to a date for a significant person, a US President, that helps say "Cleveland". His tomb really isn't that far away. The Terminal Tower is farther I think. How can that be a red herring? I think both are general area confirmers saying "between these two distant points IN Cleveland". About Keats' birthday, he was born at a time when Spannish Exploration was very active, I think that's interesting, though I haven't found any places significant for 1793.

Even if the date does/doesn't mean Garfield, does that necessarily make it a red haring? How many things happened in 1881, or things marked by 1881, that are nearby? Are they all either clues or red herrings? Couldn't they just be coincidences? To me, BP was a smart guy, but did he really know everything about everything, and was he then able to overlay that with each city he visited in order to make clues? Did he know the cities that well? You're right about the cemetery being just as close as the tower, but I'm not sure that distance is that important in determining it's validity as a "clue." Hasn't the clue already been used (i.e., the coordinates)? Does BP overlap/reuse visual clues? If 1881 point to President Cleveland, I might buy it, but Garfield?

I'm not trying to digress into how BP would need to know everything. I think it's really more important to attempt a Fair Folk POV and pick up a path that doesn't require tons of outside knowledge, but does utilize what's REALLY pertaining to that locality. Doesn't P4 look somewhat tombish? The date on the left 1441 and the date on the right 1881 suggest a 440 year time span. Perhaps the particular fair folk who laid their casque in Cleveland came to the new world around that date of 1441. For the purpose of their GIFT to Man that's good, they left a clue in the number 1881, because 1) Preiss found it easy to connect to a nearby and truly remarkable landmark for a President and 2) it offered a repetition of LAT/LONG primary digits. The Terminal Tower is amazing and grand, we see it's outline in P4. The Garfield Memorial is also amazing and grand, we only have the date of its occupant in P4, If the fairies liked the Terminal Tower, I don't see why they couldn't like the Garfield Memorial as well. Like I said, the casque is roughly between these two iconic towering structures. My point isn't to say it was necessary to recognize these locations. I'm just trying to interpret the simple language of illustration and verse as it's communicating a perspective shaped by what the Fair Folk would find interesting. The whole Cleveland location seems to have a "Between/Beneath two things" kind of feel: columns, poet urns, Terminal Tower and Garfield Memorial. The Terminal Tower is a amazing and tall piece of architecture. I think the Fair Folk appreciated its architectural greatness. It's sort of a bittersweet reminder to the wars perpetrated by the White man that they then focus on the Garfield Memorial. I wonder if this is meant to be a trend? Maybe we'll continue to find a thing of Goodness first, and then a reminder of our savagery second? Now Keats, we should be wondering more about this young poet and why he comes into the picture just two lines into the verse. I almost feel that the name of a book should be expected, but the acrostic gives us either 10 random letters followed by SELOY or it gives us 15 meaningful letters indicating someone named SELBY said "to northwest Washington". If the Fair Folk utilized James Garfield (1831-1881), a major political figure who was a Major General in the U.S. Army, then it might be within reach for them to utilize a lesser known war veteran, William S. Harney (1800-1889) and especially if its intended to be a more difficult jewel to find.

Correction on Keats' birth year, its 1795, not 1793.

You can still hear the honking, could the first part of this line be taken as "you aren't totally deaf, just hard of hearing," and the word "honking" be taken as "horn"?

erexere wrote:: You can still hear the honking, could the first part of this line be taken as "you aren't totally deaf, just hard of hearing," and the word "honking" be taken as "horn"? sure or cars or geese or a musical instrument

Maybe its a clue for "hearing" as in "public hearing" or a trial hearing which may be a way of referencing H.M.Roberts for his Rules of Order. This could potentially work for me in San Juan Island where his name is on the plaque on the large boulder.

Answering my own question here. I've been thinking about how Preiss would've expected us to know about the Keats reference. Probably it was in some collected book of poems or a biography source that wouldn't have been too difficult to acquire like the Abroad in America book, published in 1976. The first line, "The first chapter," really does the work of suggesting "find something that's written," and literally we find something that says "writ in water". The task then is to figure out all the reasons why Preiss selected that source and what we're intended to do with it.

slappybuns wrote:: why isn't anyone looking across the bay? he used acrostic for seloy, why not the first of the verse, TWN W BAAY,  is there a light house there? i was thinking of someone's reference to virginiia wolf's play.  maybe he was looking across from the bay to the park.  maybe the "tree" is a lamp post. LAMP anagrams to PALM ... Lit by palmlight ...

Hi all, I recently found this hunt via reddit, and quickly became interested. I grew up, and still live in St Aug. And have a rather good theory about the location. People seem to be very confused by this verse, and with good reason. Since the mid 90's the FOY has undergone an almost constant renovation. Statutes and plaques move, buildings are built and destroyed... so many things have changed. But... if you can remember what the park looked like in the late 80's to early 90's then the verse is pretty specific. I will be digging this weekend and I figured I would make you all an offer. Send me your locations and I will dig there for you. Try to be as specific as possible, ideally draw a circle on a map, and I will dig then respond with precise dig location, depth, width, and results. Maybe we can start narrowing this down. You know what they say, two heads are better than one. (Disclaimer. I am digging with a couple of friends, we have decided if anything is found, and if a gem is aquired we are going to auction both of them off and donate the funds to charity. this way no one profits off of the work of others.)

[quote="erexere" "The first chapter," really does the work of suggesting "find something that's written," and literally we find something that says "writ in water". The task then is to figure out all the reasons why Preiss selected that source and what we're intended to do with it.[/quote] If you go inside the entrance to the fountain you will see a map of Florida. "The first chapter" is literally written in the ocean section of the map.

Good luck with your dig - have you gotten approval from the site owners? You do know this is an archaeological site, and that many people have dug before, often with the help of people who have owned and been on the property for decades? Secret hunters have been all over that property and my understanding is that they're a bit weary of digs and e-mails for info. I just caution anyone who joins this hunt and feels that they've immediately solved it. Have you read through this thread (and the one for the image) in entirety? Are you sure you're not duplicating efforts/a dig site? It's entirely possible that someone will come along with a new perspective, but on the other hand people have been working on these for 30 years, and collaborating online for over a decade.

Xieish wrote:: Good luck with your dig - have you gotten approval from the site owners? You do know this is an archaeological site, and that many people have dug before, often with the help of people who have owned and been on the property for decades? Secret hunters have been all over that property and my understanding is that they're a bit weary of digs and e-mails for info. This is correct. I've been there a few times, and spoken to someone about it. They were very adamant on no digging/hunting, etc...Unless this has changed in the last few months, or someone has a great relationship with them, sadly, I don't see it happening. I'd be glad to help out with any backing/talking/persuasion if anyone needs.

I'd be surprised if you were allowed to dig within the grounds, though I still think it might be in Magnolia. Photos of areas inaccessible on Google are always welcome.

The place the verse leads me to isn't actually at the fountain of youth, it's at a park that was sort of across the street from the fountain of youth in the 80s, but was repurposed around 1989. Some of the park is still there, but not much. I'm in a position within the county where I can dig without many people asking questions or bothering me about it... however, my rules are: I will not dig without a solid reason, without having found something solid with a ground probe or gpr. I will also not dig within the proper archaeological site, though I have a friend who can. I have read everything I can find about st Aug, and I don't think I found the answer, this is just kind of a fun little adventure for me and my friends. the only question I still have is, how big are the casks themselve, and how big are the boxes they were found in?

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I'd be surprised if you were allowed to dig within the grounds, though I still think it might be in Magnolia. Photos of areas inaccessible on Google are always welcome. diggin on Magnolia it's going to be difficult too. since the story became popular recently, groups of people have been digging up sections on Magnolia Avenue just about every other day. The base of almost every tree has been dug up, roots have been destroyed, part of the base for one of the canons was broken, there's been a chip in the wall, and someone broke into 21 Myrtle Avenue to dig up the yard. the holes that are dug up generally aren't filled either, and when they are they're sloppily filled. the residents of Magnolia are not pleased.

ya i knew when word, got out more about this hunt, there would be probs like trespassing, holes not filled ect:, a shame but the cats out of the bag now def makes it much harder to look now for those folks that are digging random holes trespassing ect. the casque and or the jewel should you find an turn it in, really arent worth enough $$, to risk jail or stand your ground situations, think b4 you dig

Time to market that T-shirt idea I came up with back when TCWAF was goin on. "Jail if dig!" Remember that?

I posted in the Image 11 (or verse 3 whatever) thread that before I dig anywhere around the Esplanade or really anywhere serious in Boston that it makes sense to have a criminal lawyer on retainer. I wish it wasn't the case, but with fears the way they are these days in US cities and the way minor situations with police can escalate, it really isn't a bad idea.

I'm really surprised that people are finally digging holes. For years it was impossible to persuade anyone to try digging anywhere. Good luck to them, I say - but guys, please be considerate, and clear up the mess.

I have a hard time believing those holes were dug by treasure hunters connected to this hunt. WhiteRabbit is correct - this isn't exactly Masquerade.

I'm headed out there now, I'll see if I can get some pictures if I find anything to show you what I'm talking about.

Here is an album full of.various new pictures. Ill come.back and explain each of them when I have a bit more time. hxxp://imgur.com/a/hornE

Thanks burn -- those are good pictures.

Update: A few people sent me their dig sites, and I checked each one out. I used a 6ft ground probe and probed 3-4ft down in a grid pattern every 6 inches. Here is what I found. Foy exit: hxxp://i.imgur.com/h5CZPTr.jpg I probed a 4 foot circle around the light pole. I found a crap ton of oyster shells. Service entrance: hxxp://i.imgur.com/WzCw8p9.jpg I probed the entire area from wall to street and from sidewalk to cannon... I found a bunch of oysters and a tin can. Service ebtrance cannon: hxxp://i.imgur.com/V9kUIaG.jpg These things have a base buried in the ground that seems to go a few foot down and spread 6-10in from the base of the cannon. I probed and area 4 foot or so around the cannon. There was a section of what looked like collapsed dirt directly behind the cannon which was about a foot square in size. I dug 3 ft down with post hole diggers in the center of the area and found nothing. Hotel fence area: hxxp://i.imgur.com/SjuqBti.jpg I tried to probe as much as I could here. But there are far too many roots and pipes. It would be almost impossible to dig.

I've been experimenting with reversal, flip, and mirroring of images, and now I'm wondering if it could apply to text. In order to keep us from seeing these relationships, Byron may have translated out their obviousness: Look at the last line here: Years pass, rain falls Years = age. What if "years pass" is the equivalent of "age pass", and the intent is to swap the word order, giving us pass+age or a single new word: passage. Rain falls = rain is in the form of drops, and a fall is also a drop, therefore we work with the word "drops". The rotation of some letters gives us other letters, 'd' becomes 'p', 'r' doesn't rotate to anything new, 'o' stays an 'o', and an 's' stays an 's' when rotated. Our new word is "prods". Our riddle is now related to these two words: passage, prods. I've been working to identify the application of an image match for a lighthouse, which is something which aids in safe navigation or passage. A prod may be something used to push or goad, like a spur or a pointy stick. "Years pass, rain falls" could in this conception be "Lighthouse, cattle prod" or "Cattle Point Lighthouse"

Can anyone confirm that the entrance to FOY had "The First Chapter" written on it in the 80s?

erexere wrote:: Can anyone confirm that the entrance to FOY had "The First Chapter" written on it in the 80s? I do remember that being confirmed years ago and with a posted photo. I am sure its buried on a thread here.

yes it did

Thank you. I believe it must have been there for the purpose of a truly awesome red herring. Same for the SELOY acrostic tail section.

I just reread this entire thread, if the sign being there in the 80's was verified I missed it. The old pictures I saw posted showed a completely different looking entrance. That being said most of the links are broken or missing.

Hmm, maybe Erexere is here for the purpose of a truly awesome red herring...

I don't know if you ever read the verse 10 thread, but it is a really horrible match to image 12. Some very wild forced fit theories there. Until there is a way to match the pictures with the verses better I'm inclined to be skeptical that verse 9 goes with image 6 at all. The whole "Seloy" theory seems to be nothing more than coincidence to me.

jayheedan1 wrote:: I don't know if you ever read the verse 10 thread, but it is a really horrible match to image 12. Some very wild forced fit theories there. Until there is a way to match the pictures with the verses better I'm inclined to be skeptical that verse 9 goes with image 6 at all. The whole "Seloy" theory seems to be nothing more than coincidence to me. I believe that rock solid confirm is Like Moonlight in Teardrops That is the visual descrition of the composition of the outer wall 6 and 9 are the match... The conquistador matches a statue in the Park.... Does someone want to remind the naysayers of The long gone goose pond to the right of the exit? Years pass ..... Even at the Fountain of Youth

I don't think its coincidence. The acrostic hint is acceptably clever. Although its obscure to expect anyone to discover an epitaph reference, John Keats is widely known. The issue of SELOY being a piece of low fruit relating to a Spanish themed jewel is what raises my suspicions. To consider all fifteen lines as contributing to a secret message is more appealing to me, but clearly its scrambled. I invested a good deal of time playing with the first words of each line like refrigerator magnets and came to the conclusion that a minimal amount of effort in swapping just four positions and keeping 11 in the same spots made a coherent and complete message relating to the English poet acrostic to an major English event: the Pig War. TO NW WA SAYS SELBY. While SELOY fits the expectation or need for a FOY hint, it doesn't seem necessary or as useful to narrow anything down to the next key connection for a Floridian-Spanish themed location, which is why I see it as a red herring. SELBY on the other hand has far better prospects as it poses a new question: why SELBY? SELBY is a town in England. Its also the origin for a stain glassed window relating to George Washington. ( hxxp://www.mountvernon.org/research-col ... /ancestry/ ). But the real question is, WHO is Selby? It being the middle name of the General who ordered Captain Pickett to set up a defensive position in NW WA. Considering that Verse 11 with Image 3 fits an English themed jewel, my expected application for English poet John Keats is contradictory unless its good evidence can point to the English being clearly involved in another cultural setting. I've concluded the Rusalki use the Russian Orthodox church image in the stain glass window of Image 12 as that link and choose a setting just north across the waters of Alki Point where the Statue of Liberty watches the fishing boats pass by in the night, nets full of kippers.

I should look for some examples. Most vese lines are super short and only a few cases use comma separation. Each case as I loosely recall gave the sense of a main focus using some further descriptiveness.

If any of you thought the casque was buried on the foy side of magnolia st you can consider it gone now. hxxp://i.imgur.com/i9Ut7zN.jpg

No worries, that's just wilhouse...

Ok, so I've been researching the FoY key location for a few months now. I've been to the park twice for reconnaissance and to probe a few spots. I know that I'm very close to at least discovering it's location even though it's going to be tough to get permission to dig at this point. That all being said, I'd like to post a few clues that I believe I've solved but have not yet seen on this blog. (I may have just missed them.) First, a lot of people are saying that the checkered pattern on Ponce's shirt corresponds with the wall across the street at the HoJo, however I found something that it matches better. The bottom of the Traverse Board (Wind-Rose). In fact the full color scheme of the Traverse Board marches the full color scheme of Ponce and his horse meaning that Ponce and his horse are there to guide you to the exact location of the "treasure". https://www.flickr.com/photos/85503068@ ... 0101206893

Just putting in new sprinkler heads :-)

kulaid813 wrote:: Ok, so I've been researching the FoY key location for a few months now. I've been to the park twice for reconnaissance and to probe a few spots. I know that I'm very close to at least discovering it's location even though it's going to be tough to get permission to dig at this point. That all being said, I'd like to post a few clues that I believe I've solved but have not yet seen on this blog. (I may have just missed them.) First, a lot of people are saying that the checkered pattern on Ponce's shirt corresponds with the wall across the street at the HoJo, however I found something that it matches better. The bottom of the Traverse Board (Wind-Rose). In fact the full color scheme of the Traverse Board marches the full color scheme of Ponce and his horse meaning that Ponce and his horse are there to guide you to the exact location of the "treasure". https://www.flickr.com/photos/85503068@ ... 0101206893 Good work Kulaid813. I believe the checkered pattern at the bottom of the Wind-Rose has been mentioned. However, I do not recall Ponce's reins being linked. It's a good match. Keep posting updates on your progress.

I've been turning the last line over in my mind whenever I pour a beer. "Years pass, rain falls." In my most recent thoughts, I've noticed that the two subject words share a connection for being cyclical. Years, in terms of the orbital period, are each defined as a revolution around the Sun and rain has it's own cyclical format as water cycle (evaporation, condensation, precipitation, etc.). Another link to both those terms is in the nature of gravity. The Earth is held in it's orbit by the Sun's gravity. Rain drops fall as a result of the Earth's gravity. The mention of moonlight in teardrops also resonates with this idea, since tears are being dropped, the moon is held by Earth's gravity, it's light is a reflection of the Sun.

Kulaid813, I'm pretty sure that the owner is not granting permission for people to search. He is aware of the hunt, but I don't think that too many people have been successful gaining permission to dig. Also there is an ongoing archaeological dig going on at that site. That being said, it's not against any ruled or policies to look :-)

They've discovered a new "First Chapter". Maybe BP secretly found the Luna colony back in 1980. We should ask the excavators if they found a slightly-used Plexiglas box among the shards of 16th-century pottery.

Between Stercox, SawDusty and burnstyle it seems the FOY site has been heavily canvased. That being said, we live in Orlando but frequent St. Augustine. We would love to be included in any further endeavors. I would also love to know if any of the mentioned people are still active in this effort. One item I do believe that is worth researching is the old entrance on the north side of the property. There were 8 homes built on the corner of Duffiner and Magnolia in the mid 90s that could be near the old entrance. I read a post that residents in the area were pretty much over dealing with hunters. I hope they have not ruined any future efforts. On our next trip, we plan on attempting to find old municipal records of changes to the area. At this point, we are just trying to come up with any different ideas.

my4sonz wrote:: Between Stercox, SawDusty and burnstyle it seems the FOY site has been heavily canvased. We would love to be included in any further endeavors. I would also love to know if any of the mentioned people are still active in this effort. my4sonz wrote:: One item I do believe that is worth researching is the old entrance on the north side of the property. I read a post that residents in the area were pretty much over dealing with hunters. I hope they have not ruined any future efforts. Yes, they did some great work. I think many still work the puzzle(s), but not as much together on these forums anymore. It is much more separated/offline these days. Yes, it seems like St. Augustine is going to be delicate, whoever is working that one, with both the park owner and the nearby residents. I am 3-4 hours north of there, but go through St. Aug on my way to Orlando usually a couple times/year, so I'd be glad to look as well on one of my trips.

That's unfortunate about hunters being more separated and offline. If you are ever in the area, St Augustine or Orlando, let us know. My wife and I are both cast members at Disney. I am hopeful about this hunt, just not optimistic.

my4sonz wrote:: That's unfortunate about hunters being more separated and offline. If you are ever in the area, St Augustine or Orlando, let us know. My wife and I are both cast members at Disney. I am hopeful about this hunt, just not optimistic. Sounds good. And I wasn't trying to turn you off of the hunt, or this forum. Just less interaction these days. Although if you do post something (especially new) there are many that will respond. This hunt is an obsession once you let it in! Agreed. Think several are still in the ground, but probably not as many as I'd like.

Oh no. I still enjoy doing the research and scouting regardless.

Here are some exciting updates: I found a map in the painting... I can't believe how exact it is, and I can't believe I overlooked it for so long. It is NOT in the FOY park, it's not even really close to the park, but it is FAR too exact to be a coincidence. I'm pretty sure (about 90%) that I figured out what "Years pass, rain falls" means. I found some old photos from the 70's at the historical society, and when I saw them it just clicked. I think the rock and tree are in the photos too... and if its them, it explains why there is no reflection for the tree, but there is for the rock. If I am right, the rock and tree were exactly where the map on the painting says they should be. I can see from the image how I could use "moon light in teardrops over the tall grass" to position myself in a way where the rock, water, and tree seem like they would line up exactly... but the rock and water are gone now... so is the moonlight, tear drop, and tall grass actually... so an exact spot would be difficult. The bending branches and tall tree could be explained as well (if my memory of the area is as good as I think it is) If I am right I can narrow the site down to a five square foot area. The downside is I know there has been work done there since the 80's, but the upside is it is not on protected land. I'm going to do some poking around this weekend, I'll keep everyone updated. I don't want to count our chickens before they hatch... but we might be close to this one.

This sounds very exciting and encouraging! Keep us posted!

Update: I went out last weekend prodding the ground and I found something. It had edges, was about 2 feet underground, and felt slightly flexable (though that could have been the flexing of my rod). I'm not getting my hopes up, it could be a brick, or an old oyster bed, which I have found a lot of both in the area, or a sewr line. but it feels flat, unlike oysters. I'm going to try and go back to dig this weekend, but I may not be able to due to the storm.

Here is what St. Augustine looks like after Hurricane Matthew. This is right near the FoY. hxxp://www.katc.com/clip/12793658/st-augustine-storm-surge-following-hurricane-matthew-video-from-wfoxcnn https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10155416539286509/ Here is Magnolia Ave: hxxp://imgur.com/gallery/k8aGz In other news....the FoY just received a National Historic designation, which may severely limit digging, and will no doubt increase penalties for unauthorized digging: hxxp://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/st-johns-county/st-augustine/fountain-of-youth-receives-national-historic-designation

Egbert wrote:: Here is what St. Augustine looks like after Hurricane Matthew. Here is Magnolia Ave: hxxp://imgur.com/gallery/k8aGz Unknown: In other news....the FoY just received a National Historic designation, which may severely limit digging, and will no doubt increase penalties for unauthorized digging: hxxp://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/st-johns-county/st-augustine/fountain-of-youth-receives-national-historic-designation I guess this means the casque is now "under" and no longer "behind" bending branches. Not to promote digging in an area where we shouldn't be or anything, but I don't think a "designation" impedes on the physical aspect of retrieving a casque - only the legal aspect. The lack of park guards and near darkness made digging there quite easy in the past, and I don't think a random placard somewhere is going to make it any harder in the future.

A comment on Oregonian's pbwiki caught my attention. User FippinArkansas mentioned a "years pass" may be purchased for park access. I like the idea of limiting our scope to a place that one might have an annual pass access like a National Park.

erexere wrote:: A comment on Oregonian's pbwiki caught my attention. User FippinArkansas mentioned a "years pass" may be purchased for park access. I like the idea of limiting our scope to a place that one might have an annual pass access like a National Park. You rang? Thanks for the shoutout! So the "years pass" combined with the "moonlight in teardrops" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teardrop_trailer leads me to think state or national park such as Anastasia State Park, just in front of which is the Old Spanish Quarry. Does anyone know if one could purchase a year's pass back in 1982? Any other thoughts?

Someone elsewhere has mentioned that the profile in Image 6 resembles the sentinels designed by Antoni Gaudi in Barcelona's Casa Mila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Mil%C3%A0#/media/File:Casa_Mil%C3%A0_01.jpg and if this is intentional, it would tie into the St. Augustine "Sentinels of the Coast" historical landmark. There is a picnic type park there and it is just one street away from Ponce De Leon Avenue https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8861256,-81.2875457,3a,75y,104.48h,79.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shDOHK6WdksORizjcITIB0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 . I realize this is the Verse 9 discussion, so sorry if this is considered off topic.

FlippinArkansas wrote:: Someone elsewhere has mentioned that the profile in Image 6 resembles the sentinels designed by Antoni Gaudi in Barcelona's Casa Mila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Mil%C3%A0#/media/File:Casa_Mil%C3%A0_01.jpg and if this is intentional, it would tie into the St. Augustine "Sentinels of the Coast" historical landmark. There is a picnic type park there and it is just one street away from Ponce De Leon Avenue https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8861256,-81.2875457,3a,75y,104.48h,79.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shDOHK6WdksORizjcITIB0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 . I realize this is the Verse 9 discussion, so sorry if this is considered off topic. Oh, and I forgot to mention another possible link: Casa Mila is known colloquially as "the Quarry" which is obviously relevant to St. Augustine because of the significant historical value of the Old Spanish Rock Quarry near Anastasia State Park.

My Solve for this Verse is Castillo de San Marcos The first chapter (Native Americans record the arrival Ponce de Leon) Written in water (Fountain of Youth) Near men (Conquistadors) With wind rose (Castillo de San Marcos, the design is roughly in the shape of of a Wind Rose) Behind bending branches (Hornwork) And a green picket fence (Cubo line) At the base of a tall tree (Reference to the Watch Tower) You can still hear the honking (A term used for the sound of canon fire) Shell, limestone, silver, salt (Construction materials and contents of the Castillo) Stars move by day (Heated Canon balls from the Furnace fired at the ships) Sails pass by night (Ships in the Matanzas River) Even in darkness (Safely in the Night) Like moonlight in teardrops (Ships Sails' reflection) Over the tall grass (The high grass berms around the Castillo) Years pass, rain falls. (Refers to the thousands of soldiers/people who pass through the entrance over the years) (Rainures are grooves used to hold up a drawbridge, it allows the bridge to fall when out of the rainures.) That's it for the verse, I'll put up my interpretation of Image 6 when I get time later. Anybody dug much in the Castillo de San Marcos? Thoughts?

MrBackstop wrote:: Anybody dug much in the Castillo de San Marcos? Thoughts? There's a whole lot of nothing at the fort park as far as landmarks go, aside from the fort and the sea walls... Digging inside the fort would be downright impossible

burnstyle wrote:: There's a whole lot of nothing at the fort park as far as landmarks go, aside from the fort and the sea walls... Digging inside the fort would be downright impossible I can see why you might say it would be impossible but my family and I have visited many National Parks and you'd be surprised how alone you can be sometimes. In Muir woods outside SF we went all over the place to explore and take great pics with no Rangers around. We visited Fort Sumter in Charleston and once we got inside the Fort walls we were alone except for other tourists. I'm just wondering if Byron was on the outer edges of the seawall at Castillo de San Marcos and took advantage of the sand, the angles of the Fort, and nighttime, ....to be able to quickly bury the chest.

Just practically speaking, it's really hard to dig at the base of a tall tree just because of the root system (I've tried!). And yes, this would be true of palm trees as well. I'm 75% sure it's not a real tree he is referring to. It is either wordplay or symbolic.

Unknown: I'm 75% sure it's not a real tree he is referring to. And I'm about 75% convinced that he is in this context ("at the base of a tall tree"). But I'm also 99% sure that we are not meant to dig there. I'll change my tune when someone digs up a casque despite the presence of mature tree roots that we can prove existed in 1981.

Guys, I see these lines in Verse 9 reading like this: At the base of a tall tree (Watchtower in FOY Park) You can still hear the honking (Sound of Daily Cannon Firing next to the Watchtower) I don't read the verse with the tree being tied to the lines before it. I read it like above. It would suck to have to deal with a tree that has been around for the last few decades.

watchtower wasnt there in 80s according to george. also...i just solved the angel clue!!! https://www.tripadvisor.ca/LocationPhot ... orida.html

click over to next photo...angel is standing on nose of face/fin of whaleshark etched into the clouds, there is also something beside the angel too...

this isnt breaking news, we all know that it is a ref to the windrose in the FOY exhibit, and a ref to the mariners who stayed behind with menendez to form the first settlement...this is pretty common knowledge...

Josh, I know this may come as shock to you but I disagree with the "factual" statement that it is in the FOY exihibit. Near men With wind rose That first part of the verse refers to Castillo de San Marcos. The men are the conquistadors who fought there. The Castillo is a Wind Rose design. I don't believe it has anything to do with telling searchers to go into buildings and find other clues. Although, BP may have gotten inspiration from some items inside buildings for his Images and Verses.

Unknown: I disagree with the "factual" statement that it is in the FOY exihibit There is a windrose in an exhibit in FoY Park, and it was there in 1981/82. Those are facts. Whether it has anything to do with the puzzle, and the location of the St. Augustine casque is speculative. As is most of the information in the Verses for the more difficult puzzles. That's why this Forum has over 33K posts, and is still going strong. Well, that and the trolls.

The words "Wind Rose" appear on a board in the planetarium, which is referenced in the verse. Surely that's the most likely explanation.

Unknown: Surely that's the most likely explanation. The problem with "the most likely explanation" WR, is that as we have seen time and time again, with regard to the Verses, the most likely explanation frequently leads us to dead ends. In 1983, these dead ends would have just required a re-set. Thirty-six years later, they are problems unto themselves. I'll just put this out there for everyone: can you imagine the phone call between the owners of FoY and Preiss the first time someone was caught digging on the premises? I doubt that he would have told them that "digging there would not be a waste of time". Draw your own conclusions.

or youre stuck, and the end is not dead...you just havent figured your way out labyrinth shit, you know?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: There is a windrose in an exhibit in FoY Park, and it was there in 1981/82. Those are facts. Whether it has anything to do with the puzzle, and the location of the St. Augustine casque is speculative. As is most of the information in the Verses for the more difficult puzzles. That's why this Forum has over 33K posts, and is still going strong. Well, that and the trolls. Exactly. It is common knowledge that a wind rose is in FOY. It is also common knowledge that 33K posts later, the casque is still buried by a warm blanket of sand and dirt. By the way, the Castillo is simply a waymarker, nothing more,

Here's where I am with my updated interpretation of Verse 9 for St. Augustine The first chapter - Florida's human history Written in water - Ponce de Leon arrival in 1513 Near men - Conquistadors With wind rose - Castillo de San Marcos Behind bending branches - Arrows shot from bows And a green picket fence - Cubo line At the base of a tall tree - Great Cross of St. Augustine You can still hear the honking - Sound from Canon Firing Shell, limestone, silver, salt - Coquina building material Stars move by day - FOY Planetarium Sails pass by night - Ships in the River and Tributaries Even in darkness - 24 hours a day Like moonlight in teardrops - Reflections of light in falling water Over the tall grass - Spanish moss hanging from trees Years pass, rain falls. - Outer FOY Entrance Sign, Water Wheel's falling water.

A little help? The old sign that used be accompany the Silver Salt Cellar exhibit at FOY used to refer to is as a 'casque.' The word Luella Day McConnell used to describe it - and of course where Preiss probably got the idea of using that term in his puzzles. I've seen a (possibly cropped) image of it in WhiteRabbit's Florida write-up (page 9 here) hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc ... puzzle.pdf When I reached out to WhiteRabbit (thank you for the info!) they said that it was taken by Stercox in 2007. (That photo archive is no longer working). So I was wondering - does anyone here know more about the pic? Is 2007 the correct year for when it was taken? Does anyone mind sharing an original of the pic/file if they have one? Thanks in advance!

I visited the FoY in 2007 and took lots of photos. I believe one of them is the one you are talking about. Here is a link to the photos (hope it works): https://flic.kr/s/aHsjJiTKuY Edit: Just noticed I don't have all my photos in there, so I will try to upload them to that link.

Thank you, your Sir-ness! So in looking at the date information in the EXIF data for those pics, it looks like the newer sign (black lettering/white background) was in place for Egbert's pic on 8/5/2007. Meaning the one that has the word casque must have been older than that. Thank you!

...apologies for the misattribution Egbert; I had a niggle in the back of my mind that it might have been one of yours... I like this pic from your album. (Don't remember seeing it before.) (It would be cool if someone shared Stercox's old album, as I don't think it's available anywhere anymore. I seem to remember a photo of her standing next to an impressive hole she dug.)

That park map has coordinate data that can be scaled down to a 1’x1’ location. If anyone (burnstyle?) has a specific location on that particular map that they are trying to actually find on the ground, it is very possible. The coordinate number grid on the top and right side of the map is a home run for any surveyor worth his/her salt.

BINGO wrote:: That park map has coordinate data that can be scaled down to a 1’x1’ location. If anyone (burnstyle?) has a specific location on that particular map that they are trying to actually find on the ground, it is very possible. The coordinate number grid on the top and right side of the map is a home run for any surveyor worth his/her salt. All of the info on that map is post 2002. Fraiser told me that particular map was not around in the 80's Though he told me once there was one like it on site. So I dunno.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (It would be cool if someone shared Stercox's old album, as I don't think it's available anywhere anymore. I seem to remember a photo of her standing next to an impressive hole she dug.) I messaged her to ask her for a link.

burnstyle wrote:: All of the info on that map is post 2002. Fraiser told me that particular map was not around in the 80's Though he told me once there was one like it on site. So I dunno. It looks like that map included a survey of test pits and other gathered ground data from around 1994. Since it has the coordinate grid labeled, any items of interest that may be gone now are actually quite simple to locate very accurately. I guess the biggest question is whether or not there are any interesting missing items that could help the hunt.

burnstyle wrote:: I messaged her to ask her for a link. Thank you burnstyle. Having missed them the first time, it would be interesting to look at them if they turn up. WhiteRabbit - When I went looking for the Stercox pic, I remember seeing an alternate posting of the pic you're likely referring to. This it?

Wow! Good ole Q4T!! Its been years since I've been on this site, still hunting though. The picture above is Kim, my hunting partner, and we were digging at the west side of the planetarium there, probably late 2006 or early 2007. The old pictures I have are from 2004-2007. All were on Webshots, but I didn't keep the links. Doubt if they are still accessible. I have most of them on my Google drive and they are organized into park zones. Hope you find them helpful. Glad to do it.

St Augustine East Park zone https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

St. Augustine Mideast Park zone https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

St Augustine Midwest park zone https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

St Augustine West park zone https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Thanks Stercox! You're a legend.

Thanks Stercox! That is an impressive excavation. And thank you burnstyle for reaching out to her.

Kang wrote:: Thanks Stercox! That is an impressive excavation. And thank you burnstyle for reaching out to her. I AM NEW HERE AND I AM HUMBLED BY YOUR HARD WORK AND WILLINGNESS TO SHARE. STERCOX DESERVES AN AWARD FOR GREATNESS!