Thread Summary
This epic thread unpacks the wild, winding mystery of Image 11, widely believed to correspond with Verse 3. While early speculation connects it to Salt Lake City, the Boston theory gains strong traction. Users inspect every element—gemstones, birds, dresses, and boxes—for regional clues.
🔮 Symbolism & Hidden Numbers
- The number **42** on the sleeve and **112** above the flower point to lat/lon coordinates for Salt Lake City, but later interpretations explore Boston.
- A square and triangle shape (4 sides + 3 sides = 43) and a “B” formed from ornamentation suggest latitude references and possibly Boston or the “Beehive State” (Utah).
- Users theorize that the “orb” in the lower corner is a nod to the **Boston Globe** newspaper or global motifs.
🦅 Bird Watch & Faery Fashion
- The bird is possibly a **Cooper’s Hawk**, but interpretations range from generic falcon to seagull, linking it with cities like Seattle and Salt Lake City.
- A mysterious bracelet with the number **4**, and mirrored designs interpreted as “S” or “AA” open discussions on symbolism and city initials (Ann Arbor? Salt?).
🏰 The Box Castle Dilemma
- The ornate box in the woman’s hands is dissected for architecture clues: Park Plaza Castle in Boston, MIT’s Green Building, and European castles are all floated as matches.
- The resemblance to Pandora’s Box is noted, with thematic ties to “hope,” “secrets,” and “unleashing mysteries.”
🌎 Cities in Contention
- **Salt Lake City**: Strong support from numbers, mention of **Memory Grove Park**, McCune Mansion, falcon symbolism, and beehive imagery.
- **Boston**: Copley Square, Trinity Church, and verses referring to “green towers of light” suggest Boston Public Library or the Prudential Tower.
- **Seattle** and **Ann Arbor** also enter the conversation, though less convincingly.
🗺️ Field Research & Humor
- Contributors scour maps, street views, and historical sites. Posts link images to globe symbolism, architectural features, and immigrant history.
- The community delights in wild theories and “revelations” like the castle being “MADE IN CHINA,” injecting humor into the hunt.
🎯 Final Thoughts
Despite strong support for Salt Lake City, many users shift toward **Boston** as a more fitting match, citing immigrant ties, architecture, and poetic cues. Still, no location is confirmed, and the mystery endures. This thread is a showcase of classic Q4T sleuthing: deep research, passionate debate, and an unrelenting pursuit of buried treasure.
Egbert
See my post under the "pp.20-21" thread. This is a tough picture with which to match a theme, along with pic 10. After being fairly confident with matching the other 10 pictures to themes, it leaves me with only 2:
One should be:
February (no indication of time in either pic)
Amethyst (pic 11 --- is that gem purple though?)
Violet or Primrose (pic 11 has a purple flower, but it doesn't look like a violet or primrose, it looks more like Gladiolus)
German Theme
"Dwarves' treasure: purple Amethyst,
Imperial star of Germany."
The other should be:
August (ball glowing at 8 o'clock in pic 10?)
Peridot (are either of these gems green)
Gladiolus or Poppy (what is that flower in pic 10?)
Italian Theme
"Peridot of old Italy:
antique, and olivine, and rich."
This pic seems to have a "purple" theme, which would indicate Amethyst and Violet. However, is that gem really purple? It may be a Peridot. Also, the flower doesn't look like a violet. It looks like a Gladiolus.
hxxp://www.westol.com/~pennwest/flowers/poppy.html
Does this pic remind anyone of Italy or Germany?
Egbert
In the "pp.20-21" thread, Fox and Shawn point out that the globes/circles in the pic add up to 8 (if you count the window), so that gives us August. That's fine --- then the flower is a gladiolus, as I thought. How about the gem, though? For anyone who has the book --- is the gem an olive color? It needs to be a Peridot, for this to be our "Italian" picture.
The bird has to be a clue --- anyone know what type it is? Or perhaps it is from a famous painting?
The markings on the stone around the window are very faint --- would anyone who has the book be able to make out what they are? I don't see any other clues in the picture.
GPKing
In the book, the gem is definitely a green colored gem.
fox
The gem is definitely a Peridot. For those without the book, here is a peridot which the book looks like:
hxxp://www.egemstones.com/peridot.gif
Everytime I see that darn bird I think of the statue in the movie "The Maltese Falcon" with Bogart but it really isnt similar. The bird in the P could almost be any kind of preditory bird. Here is a pic of a Perigrin Falcon. hxxp://members.lycos.co.uk/bejay1938/thumbs/Profile-perigrin1.jpg The small rounded head, short hooked beak and even the coloration are quite similar. Whether our P bird is a Perigrin or not is anybodies guess. Now, why in the world would a bird have 1 foot raised in the air like that? Also, is it just me or does anybody else think the "cheek" area of the mountain in P6 looks alot like our bird? I've seen a few other shapes/symbols that appear in different P's as well.
The markings around the round window in the scanned photo are actually quite clear compared to the book. Looking over both of them, I cant really see any major difference.
Dan Amrich
I have a few thoughts on this image.
First of all, I think you're absolutely right on August--I have the book and it definitely looks like a peridot. But what I don't understand is why each picture is tied to a month...has that significance been understood yet, or is it just a matter of solvers having found a pattern without knowing what it means? It's clear that there is a months pattern, but I'm not sure if anybody has been able to suggest why that is significant. (I have a theory for this one...read on.)
I was immediately drawn to the carvings on the stone circle. I'm guessing they are code of some sort. Clockwise, there is a horizontal line that does not connect to anything visible (which we can probably assume is a continuation of the line at the other end of the wheel), then two vertical lines, one vertical line and a dot, a diagonal cut, a flag-shaped cut (or a backwards P if you'd like to use it for support for that theory), then another vertical line, and finally a vertical line 2/3 of the way up that changes direction into a horizontal line. Also the "flag" is exactly half the width of the part of the wall above it. I don't have a single idea what it could mean, but I am going on the hunch that it is a code of some sort.
Also, looking closely, there is a bracelet on the right (her left) wrist, but not on the other hand; what's more, there clearly appears to be a number 4 on the bracelet.
I also suspect that the design on the dress's skirt is likely the same as a door or other artistic metal object at or near the burial location.
Beyond that, I have a rather unusual theory on this picture. I was looking closely at some of the details, and I noticed this segment:
Hidden among the outer petals, I see either letters or numbers. It could be "112" and "2" below it. Or it could be letters, which I immediately saw, as "LIZZ." With the last character on its own line, I actually read it as "LIZ - Zee" and, well, there's one famous Lizzie that came to mind--Borden, infamous suspect in one of America's most gruesome murders (she was found not guilty). So I went to find a photo of Lizzie Borden on the web and here's what I found (I flopped the Lizzie image in Photoshop):
Now, am I nuts, or are there some striking similarities? Secret woman's face is slimmer and her lips fuller--but the right eyebrow is the same, the nose is about the same, both heads are at a slight tilt, the smile is approximately the same. I got a little more creative in Photoshop and overlayed one picture on top of the other.
Maybe any two faces look similar once you force yourself to want to see them as such? Beats me. I cannot find anything in any of the verses that implies details about the Borden case...but for the record, the murder took place not only in August, but on August 4 (bracelet).
hxxp://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/borden/crime_2.html?sect=7
The_Manley
Wow, good job! I'm not sure about the Lizzee Borden face but who knows, where did all that take place? might be helpful to find out if Lizzee had blue eyes?.... I too noticed the bracelet with the "4", even though it is upside down (from her view point), I took this as the time piece in the picture... looks like a watch, left wrist, with a 4... the images near the flower, your "liz" may be something, they do seem to sit out there in space, and they don't seem consistent with the rest of the flower image.. keep up the good work!
johann
Astonishing!
Can you do the same close-up work on the box she is holding and the vertical dress piece with a menagerie of design?
I have tried and tried to make sense of those parts and to no avail. Such a post would be greatly appreciated.
--Johann
Dan Amrich
Yes, I'll get some high-res scans of those other bits online ASAP. Unfortunately I have to go away on business for a day or two but I'll try to get them up over the weekend.
The_Manley
hey, if someone can tell me how to post a picture (jpg or bmp), I will be happy to post image clippings...
Dan Amrich
You have to find a server to host the images--in my case I have a small website so I'm just using a little space from that. Most ISPs offer a small amount of web or FTP storage space--even AOL gives you 3MB, which is plenty for stuff like this. Check with your ISP and see what they may already offer.
I will try to get some scans up tomorrow--I am back from my trip.
Dan Amrich
Sorry for the delay, it's been a working weekend I'm afraid. Here are the close-ups of the dress and the box. I included the square icons around her neck and on either side of the dress design; I tried to match them up with nautical flags and I got a few letters but nothing that made sense. I think the left side of the dress spells OWL if you really make it; not all the symbols on the dress are exact matches to the standard nautical flags.
Dan Amrich
Oh, and I neglected to mention it in my earlier post, but the whole Lizzie Borden affair took place in Fall River Massachussetts. The site is on I-195, not too far from Providence, Rhode Island.
For whatever that might be worth.
johann
Absolutely beautiful!!! Thank you for all your work.
I thought I was about to find the second casque, but I am no more than "getting close." Yet, this endeavor is advanced, but not resolved, by "close." I cannot at this time make any sensible interpretation of the close-ups, but we may all be able to find something by way of persistent examination.
Again, golden kudos to you.
--Johann
The_Manley
Hey great res on the pics! I just noticed that the ball (the round blue speckled ball) in the shot, is reflected in the bubble, it could be the clock in the image, I would have to call it 2:00 am (2:00 position, and the image depicts night time.
johann
Yes! There are a lot of 2:00 angles in this picture:
The relationship between the moon and the star in the big circle, the relationship between the fairy and the middle of the base of the box held by the woman.
I had been linking this picture to verse 7 to find a St. Louis treasure, but I now have doubts about whether or not this picture does pertain to St. Louis. I am also beginning to question whether or not I have the correct verse.
Nevertheless, I do not know what other verse or picture could pertain to St. Louis. I am trying to avoid reading into things what I want to find.
One thing I am sure about. There is a casque in St. Louis.
The_Manley
If your sure about St. Louis, try this......
I've often thought that when the authors came up with these locations, they must have wanted the clues to be unlinked and random... So I would have gotten 3 to 5 different people and told them to go out and gather 10 to 20 fact and 10 to 20 images from a particular place (lets say St. Louis).... Now throw all that on a table and start pulling bits randomly. Some things will be too obvious, some to obscure.... Also, I am thinking that the art work was created before all the clues were given. I say this because each image is a representation of a faire folk, some of the images have a white aura around some of the items (I know others have mentioned it also); I think these were pieces they had to put in after the image was done, perhaps to clarify........ Just my thoughts!
So rather than take what you see in each image or what you read in each verse, try to do some random bits of research on St. Louis, and see if you get any correlation....
In fact If you would like I'll send you some tidbits... I have not looked at St. Louis so it will be a fresh beginning for me....
Dan Amrich
The bassist in my band is a St Louis native...I will pick his brain.
loph
something i noticed today has to do with the 4 thats on her left sleeve. theres only half, which goes along with the 2 theme, but if you look at her rght arm, near her bicep, she has a arm band type thing which looks A LOT like the top half of the four. so again, the 4 split into 2 equals 2, or it could mean that theres a picture puzzle to put together. who knows, let me know what yo uall think.
Egbert
Unknown:
Hidden among the outer petals, I see either letters or numbers. It could be "112" and "2" below it.
Using Fox's latitude/longitude theory, this image likely leads to Salt Lake City, Utah. SLC is 41 latitude by 112 longitude. I believe there is a 41 carved in large numbers on the curved stone in the upper right (what we thought was a "flag" of some sort).
Fox believes that SLC is intertwined on her dress. It's possible, but not clear to me.
johann
Ok. Scrap my St. Louis idea for this pic. I am convinced that this is Salt Lake City. The break in the stones at the top of the circle, to the left of what is now a 41, is a feather. Whether using high res or the book, it is hard to not see it as a feather. Poking around on SLC tourist sites, I see that outside City Hall is a statue of a Native American with a feather on his head.
--Johann
Dan Amrich
The recent long/lat correlation wipes out my Lizzie Borden theory. :) However, focusing on SLC, does anybody have theories on the "nautical flags" on either side of her dress, and a regional context for them?
Also, Rosetti is one of many to paint Pandora and her box, but it's a fair point. There may be a connection between this location and the tale of Pandora. Or it may just be a joke, since we're looking for a box and it's the source of a lot of trouble.
catherwood
Now that i'm on board with the lat/long theory, I am looking at SLC, UT for this one too. The 4 on the cuff of her sleeve is obvious, and the filligree below it now looks like a 2 to me, to complete a 42. (SLC is between 41 and 42 degrees longitude, and most images have included a pair of numbers for cases like this.)
I want to find a building which matches the castle on Pandora's Box. The next best thing is possibly this historic building, the McCune Mansion.
hxxp://www.mccunemansion.com/index.html
The tower turret is only a partial hit, but proceed to the Photo Tour on that site.
hxxp://www.mccunemansion.com/phototour.html
The first image has a dragon's head in front of some silver scrollwork which might match the rest of our filligree. (I haven't found any better pictures yet.) Also on that first montage is a statue of a woman, but I cannot see enough detail to match her to the face of the woman in image 11 -- if it did, it would be a nice confirmer.
fox
if the McCune Mansion is correct, it is located in downtown SLC. and take a guess what is right down the street.....yup.. a park. Memory Grove Park. Here is an old postcard from the park:
hxxp://postcards.twobees.com/slc/memory_park.jpg
check out what is on top of the white pillar. There are numerous orbs/balls in this P. Could MG Park be our location?
johann
There is a cursive B in, I believe, the lower part of the dress-front. Utah is the Bee or Beehive state.
--Johann
wilhouse
The cover of the book actually has the clearest picture of this image. The 41 in the arch (or at least the 4) is very obvious and the 112 over the flower is also pretty clear.
Since SLC is 41N, 112, it sure points to it. I've been trying to decide what kind of bird it is in the picture. The state bird is the california gull.
wilhouse
cthree
Italians made up one of the largest groups of immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe when they came to SLC between the 1890s and 1920s to labor as miners and railroad workers, according to the Utah History Encyclopedia's Web site. ;)
cthree
We noticed that there is a mark next to the 112 in this P that seems to be too perfect...it makes a great 'degrees' symbol ;]
johann
Here is sone info about SLC:
1) falcon, lower left corner:
Falcon Lodge (2 hrs from SLC) in Altamont, Utah (lat 40,
(long 110), in Duchesne County, has Moon Lake.
Falcon Way St. in SLC
2) fortress in box:
an old concrete structure in Little Cottonwood Canyon
(on N slope) towards Alta(mont?) which is SE of SLC.
Yet, this structure could be 80s era. It is the Granite
Mountain Records Vault of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints, which is the world's largest collection of
filmed genealogical records. The structure is concrete
out of solid granite (not sure what this means) with
tunnels into the mountain. Construction began in 1960
and it was officially opened in 1966. (So is this not 80s
era? I know math, I mean that I'm not sure.)
There is also a Castle Creek Inn (I don't know the age.)
(
www.castleutah.com
)
There is also a town called Castle Dale.
3) The capitol building is granite with a copper dome, located
on Capital Hill, north of Temple Square, landscaped
gardens, statue of Chief Massasoit on S side, Mormon
Battalion statue on SE side; E of capitol is Memory Grove
where statues honor Utah veterans; the Grove is in City
Creek Canyon. Temple Square is surrounded by white
walls and has a golden angel on top.
I know that the Memory Gardens has been mentioned, and I am sorry this is a hodge podge of details.
--Johann
cthree
funny that i haven't ever noticed this until today...on the right side of the window, to the right of the 41, is a small mark. When rotated about 90 degrees counter-clockwise, it resembles a 'checkmark'. here is a pic:
Also, the filigree in her dress is a nice "S" when viewed in a mirror. Salt? ;)
johann
There is also
1) another checkmark below and to the right, along the same arched line
2) something that looks like a 7 or a v in the arch stone to the right of the "41 stone"
3) an s-like line on the wall on the left side of the pic, immediately below the outside edge of the circle-window (follow an imaginary line straight up from the bird's head until you reach the window).
--Johann
cthree
these things seem to be appearing before my eyes....are we trying to hard to see stuff? lol :D
fox
another stretch. In the lower right corner of the P is a globe sitting atop a pedestal/post.... The 2 large newspapers in St. Louis are the Globe & the Post. (yeah, i know....S.L. & 1/2 the other larger cities across the US....just thought I would throw it out.)
fox
Getting back to this P possibly leading to SLC. Too bad our bird friend is not a seagull since the gull is depicted in numerous statues throughout SLC:
hxxp://www.eclecticat.net/photos/slc/se ... nument.jpg
hxxp://www.kasak.net/bigtrip/partfour/slc18.jpg
hxxp://mdj.freeshell.org/grad/seasign.jpg
hxxp://www.untraveledroad.com/USA/Utah/ ... gr/17N.JPG
hxxp://www.thisistheplace.org/images/Seagull-2.jpg
i really like the 1st one since it also shows an orb which this P shows.
johann
It seems that there is writing above and along the top of the globe/orb in the lower right corner of the pic. I tried a magnifying glass, but I could not be conclusive.
Can someone with the book do some computer magic?
Egbert
Help please: any longitude/latitudes in Canada with 111, 112, or 113 degrees? I think this pic may be the Canadian one, and not Salt Lake City as previously thought.
wilhouse
Calary is about longitude 114 almost exactly (latitude 51). Medicine Hat is about 50 lat / 111 long.
there aint much inbetween, or further north.
wilhouse
fox
In the "Cleveland" thread, Egg stated the BP confirmed that the faeries place of origin tied in with the casque location. If this is indeed true, could we then possibly tie this P with Boston (more specifically the Italian renaissance inspired area of Copley Square)...?
"Peridot of old Italy:
antique, and olivine, and rich."
Could the building on silver box be the Trinity Church?
just more ideas to mull over.......
fox
This could also support my "stretch" theory; however, it could also point to several other cities as well. (several globes in P).. but.. the "stand" (lack of better words) holding the globe looks like a capital "B" tilted to the right.
hxxp://www.newseum.org/media/dfp/lg/MA_BG.jpg
fox
not sure if this has been mentioned or not so here goes. Take a look in between the jewel-holding-faery and the flower. Is it just me or does the outline of the woman's hair (dark hair outline-blue background) look like a possible harbour area. Here is a shot of Boston harbour but I still can not find the exact match. hxxp://www.columbia.edu/~db170/map.gif
Still awaiting word on one other possible confirmer and will share with all (good or bad) when that word comes.
Pine_Tree
I'm leaning strongly toward Boston for this one too, as a match with Verse 3. My main reasons are:
1. Boston is at about 42N, 71W. The 42 is obvious on her left cuff, and the top figure of her "train" (with the triangles, just below her right elbow) is a pretty good 71 when you rotate the book 90 degrees.
2. The jewel is either the Emerald (Celtic) or the Peridot (Italian). Boston's a good bet for the immigrant match in either case. I am aware that the Chicago picture has traditionally been matched with the emerald, but to me the Boston picture feels more Celtic. Chicago, of course, is also a good bet for both nationalities, but to me Boston has the edge on the Celtics claim. If somebody can definitively prove that Chicago was the emerald, then I'm perfectly OK with this being Italian.
3. Lots of globes in the picture, which may be a reference to the Boston Globe. A newspaper may be a pretty strong reference point for the authors/illustrators who wrote the book.
The castle on her box really doesn't look like Trinity Church to me, fox, but my theories on the Verse 3 thread do have the path starting at the Boston Public Library, which is right across the street. I've posited the area near the Hatch Shell on the Charles River Embankment -- I think the park is called the Esplanade. Maybe the castle is in the view across the river. If I get to Boston any time soon, that's the area I'm working on.
Pine
fox
best of luck Pinetree. Is the Charles River Esplanade anywhere near Copley Square? well...i guess it is since isnt that where the BPL is? I'm still stuck with Copley Sq.
Pine_Tree
Yeah, pretty close. See my proposal on the V3 thread. I have it starting at the BPL in Copley Square and moving north to the Charles River.
Pine
fox
I kept finding myself back in Copley square (specifically around that large fountain in front of the BPL - "back to the waters") but there just doesnt seem to be a grassy enough area around there for proper burial.
I will definitely have to scour the P for any other Boston tie ins.
fox
A possible hit or a probable stretch:
Since early on, most folks have been referring to the box the woman is holding as a Pandora's Box. The legend in a nutshell states this: The box, sent by the gods with Pandora as a gift to Epimetheus, which she was forbidden to open and which loosed a swarm of evils upon mankind when she opened it. All that remained in the box was Hope!.....
- Now, I'm still trying to find out how long it has been around, but, there is a small store (which many say a trip to Boston needs a visit to) called Hope:
hxxp://www.newbury-st.com/asp/merdtl.asp?id=461The
description of this shop sounds quite "Secretish". This shop is located right next to Prudential Tower "A green tower of lights" (V3) & just down Boylston St from Copley Square. Copley Sq is the small green square on Boylston St to the east of Hope (not Copley Place) on this map:
hxxp://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?co ... on&state=M
A&zipcode=02115&search=++Search++
just another thought to ponder.....
bclews
Well, just to throw another iron in the fire --
We might consider Seattle, WA. Why?
Washington was the 42nd state. (42 on cuff)
Seattle is known as The Emerald City. (green gem)
Washington is the Evergreen State.
Washington's State insect is the Green Darner Dragonfly.(green-winged fairy)
State flower is the pink rhododendron (is that the flower in the picture?)
Just some thoughts...
fox
Interesting ideas to ponder indeed...
fox
if it is indeed Seattle...then the obvious is missing. We had the old water tower of Chicago in P5 and the (?) tower in Cleveland in it's P.....so....would putting the Space Needle in the P be a little too obvious?
Maybe we can find that darn "box-castle" in Seattle and be done with it.
streetman
I thought I'd take a closer look a the bird in this pic. I'm no expert but to me it looks a lot like the Cooper's Hawk
Check out the identification tips here:
[url]hxxp://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i3330id.html
[/url]
Sadly, the range of the Cooper's hawk is pretty much all of North America, but maybe the name Cooper will ring a bell with someone.
Egbert
Wow, nice work. You got that hawk down, alright.
How about James Fenimore Cooper?
hxxp://www.americanwriters.org/writers/cooper.asp
He lived his life in New Jersey and New York, though. However, for those who think this is the Boston pic, he did write a book called "The Leaguer of Boston."
hxxp://www.oldandsold.com/articles25/cooper-5.shtml
Perhaps one of the verses even contains a snippet from the novel, just like we got from "Pierre" by Herman Melville. I haven't checked yet.
mxb
I'm a pretty avid birdwatcher and I don't think this is a Coopers Hawk. An adult Cooper's Hawk will have noticeable rust and white striping across its breast, as the picture shows. Several other hawks have this as well. In my opinion, if I were the artist and I really wanted to tie the bird to the word "Cooper," I'd have to add this striping. Otherwise, it's just a hawk or falcon with minimal identifying field marks.
As for whether it's a falcon or hawk, that's hard to say. They're similarly shaped, but falcons are generally smaller. I can't tell from the picture which category (large or small) this bird would fall into, but if I had to guess one or the other, I'd say hawk.
Beyond that, I don't see anything in the pic to lock down a particular species.
Matt
bclews
There are lines that extend out from the circular window. If we follow them to their logical conclusion the whole image becomes clear. Even the castle on the box makes perfect sense.
hxxp://www.crocker.com/~bclews/11.jpg
Just kidding...but those lines MAY be important.
maltedfalcon
ok! that was a definite funny
SeaHag
It is probably a much simpler reference to Seattle:
hxxp://www.tc.umn.edu/~cabra004/seahawk.jpg
By the way, I was thinking that if a guy with a backpack full of clay boxes took a couple of weeks off to go bury them around the country, he would probably stick to major cities and he would probably travel on a single airline. Try connecting hub cities...
(Sorry about all the edits, this board works differently than some others I am familiar with.)
SeaHag
Following the Seattle theory I have this to offer:
The Seahawks played in the Kingdome in Seattle, Washington, from 1976 to 1999.
Now, let's suppose that the bird in question refers to something else and the Seahawks thing is just a happy coincidence. The style of the art on the helmet made me think of a Pacific Northwest Native American type of art so I looked for a Totem Pole and this is what I found:
hxxp://www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/pac ... Square.php
So then I thought, ok, Russians in Seattle. Yes, all the way down the coast in fact. So I did a search on 'onion domes' in Seattle and found this:
hxxp://www.mzig.com/photography/browse/ ... T-ARCH-15/
Note the comments by the photographer regarding the actual color of the domes. Very interesting.
Oh, and if you are wondering about the lady in the picture, there is a 52-year-old Statue of Liberty replica on West Seattle's Alki Beach:
hxxp://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/s ... -beach.htm
johann
This seems to point to image 12 as Seattle.
SeaHag
Whoops. My bad. I am doing so many things at once, I got mixed up. Is there a way to move these?
forest_blight
Despite attempts on the part of several people to broaden our thinking, I am still stuck on Salt Lake City for this one. The 41/42/112 just nails it for me, even though there is no other certain evidence in the image that says "Utah" to me. I will try to revive discussion on this picture.
Things we know/suspect:
8 globes = 8th month, August
Gem = peridot (Italy)
112/41/42 are longitude/latitude for Salt Lake City
Flower = definitely gladiolus
That's almost certainly a Cooper's hawk
Things we dunno:
Significance of the Cooper's hawk
The building on the box
Relationship to Pandora, if any
What's that outline thingy in her hair (right side)?
The proper verse; what is it??
Is that a feather up there?
Things no one has raised:
The ribbon hanging off her right arm (our left) contains a box with the letters AA in it. The way they are oriented, there could also be an N. I will call this AA(N). It might make sense to play with these characters in various arrangements (AAN, ANA, NAA) and see what happens.
What about this picture says "Utah"? The Cleveland find had a map of Ohio on it. Surely there must be something in the image to help us narrow it down to a state besides the latitude / longitude. A rebus or visual pun of some sort?
ChowChow
"The ribbon hanging off her right arm (our left) contains a box with the letters
AA
"
The treasure is clearly in Ann Arbor, MI! What a relief, because it was quickly becoming apparent that none of the other casques is anywhere near me, although I'm smack dab between the only two that have actually been found in Chicago and Cleveland.
If anyone sees any additional hidden wolverine clues I'd be happy to follow them up here.
KROMAGNUM
Some idea's about:
In looking at Image 11...
The portal that is centered in that Image looks a 99% dead ringer for the circle path around a fountain or statue.
Image 11 could well be a NYC location. No?
Study the Beseda Terrace and the portal in Image 11. Striking resemblance.
hxxp://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/centr ... thesda.jpg
Notice the outlines in the terrace and the outlines with the portal (what I call it) in Image 11.
Map of Central Park and the adjacent streets and some of the landmarks here:
hxxp://www.centralpark.org/locator/cpcl ... /cpl1.html
I would need to find a little more solid evidence in Image 11 for trully believe it is indeed NYC.
I don't think that portal in Image 11 is necessarily a window portal. To me it appears more like a foot path around a fountain or statue.
A park in the area of Ann Arbor,MI have anything similiar around a fountain?
fox
boogieman wrote::
Fox and Trohn, you two have been all over this Boston thing. Recognize anything in image 11?
not sure what you are referring to. there must be something glaringly obvious that I have missed
Please tell me you have identified the bldg on the box.
FB - how does a square and a triangle = 43?
fox
eye am an dummy
4(sides of square) + 3(sides of triangle) is 43
forest_blight
I believe our artist is playing the same game in Image 1, only the numbers yield a street address, not latitudes or longitudes. It is clear (to me, anyway) that 37/38 and 122/123 nail San Francisco for that one.
boogieman
I'm so glad
you
asked that question about geometry. Anyway, sorry to alarm you Fox, I was just remembering the light banter and discussions about boston and I was pretty sure you did much research in that area. I was just hoping to jog your brain a little. As far as the box goes, ummm, still looking.
Trohn
If we use Pandora for Boston,
the box would represent the
'oneth by land' lantern.
The time does look about midnight here.
Where would the Boston Globe
(newspaper) buidling be in relation
to the Freedom Trail??
Why the perched bird? And the bubbles?
fox
Yes, I have done major research w/ the Boston theory. The way you asked the question, it almost seemed like you noticed something obvious in the P that hasnt been mentioned.
You find that bldg and you get the big :ad)
emory_9
Hello folks, I am new to this type of treasure hunting and new to Quest4Treasure, registered only a couple days ago. I'm not working on any hunt at present. So far I've just been lurking in the various forms. The mention in this form of Salt Lake City caught my eye. I'm there right now.
After reading through a bunch of the posts and looking at image 11 for a while I had an idea that I didn't see discussed. I'm sure it must be a topic in some forum somewhere on this site. So if this is old hat, just right it off as newbie ignorance.
Have you folks ever thought of the circular window as a clock or compass? The lines in the annular space of the frame could represent the hours on a clock or degrees-minutes-seconds on a compass or even degrees of arc in astronomy.
The marks near 1:00, 2:00 & 3:00 O-clock look to be spaced fairly well at first glance. If a line is drawn from the 1:00 mark through the center of the circle it appears to pass through the bright star. And Where do all the other lines go? What to the times mean? A line from 12:00 to 6:00 appears to split the girls face exactly in half. One could try placing a mirror vertically in her center line and look at the normal and reverse image as one.
Being an old Geocacher, I think with a little geometry one could convert the locations of the marks on the circle to compass bearings that might represent various longitude/latitude readings.
One might take all the orbs/spheres in the picture and assume them to be planets in our solar system. Does the clock, or the center of it, represent the position of the sun? Draw lines from the center of each sphere to the center of the clock. The position/location where the lines cross through the circle on the clock could represent planet locations at a specific time. Or maybe those positions on the circle indicate degrees of astronomical arc. Maybe if you know any brilliant astronomers, or maybe NASA's super-computer, that information could be calculated to the time and location of the planets on a specific date in history that could lead to a historic event that could lead to a specific city or location.
Like I said before, you folks have probably already looked at it from this angle. If not, maybe it will give someone a new idea.
Trohn
Do we have a match?
hxxp://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/parkplaz.htm
Just South of the Public Gardens and Boston Commons.
danok2
Trohn,
Thought no one agreed w/me when i posted on the v3 thread, but it could be a match. I've tried to find more images, but can't find one from the correct perspective. Maybe someone in Beantown can take a walk around it?
Trohn
Yeah, not too many photos of it.
May have to get a shot from the public gardens looking out
towards Charles.
I didn't notice the reference in V-3
I'll need to re-read that.
boogieman
Posted this in General Questions and shoud have posted it here. Can anyone read it?
johann
I hope this Boston idea works out. I was originally using this pic for the St. Louis theory, and I would like to be able to rule out at least one possibility.
danok2
FWIW, I checked out many of the "castles" on the
www.dupontcastle.com
site (keeping in mind the other suspected sites), but none of them really fit this pic as well as the armory.
fox
I would also like to see other pictures of that castle but I think it is the "best" match we have so far. I am a little concerned that the tower does not extend higher than the roofline as in the Box Image. My wife just looked at it in comparison and gave a definitive uh-uh.
I still think it is the best we have so far.....find more pix of that castle Trohn!!!!!
there is a potential
in it for you.
boogieman
Trohn wrote::
Where would the Boston Globe
(newspaper) buidling be in relation
to the Freedom Trail??
The building is located just north of Boston Commons on Morrissey St. Doesn't seem relevent though.
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&s ... 4&t=h&om=1
(note the B)
hxxp://www.bostonradio.org/photocd/0569/0035-sm.html
Trohn
As in another image, why is this jewel
floating or being flown?
This would suggest (shrug) that the burial
site is ...... not on ground level?
On another observation, that I have not seen
mentioned, the window behind her is not a solid
circle, but continues down and behind her.
To me, without Pandora in the way, it would be
the shape of a key hole. Links to the opening
of the box - unlocking.
fox
Another shot of the possible castle... Park Plaza Castle
It was onced used as an armory for Boston.
The nearest train station is the [glow=red,2,300]GREEN[/glow] line.....arc of green lights somehow???
fox
One other thing to keep in mind regarding this as a possible match....
think of P5 - the Chicago P - illustrated w/in was the Old Water Tower....now of course...the Tower was not a windmill. Could the Box Castle be a conglomeration of 2 or more bldgs in the area?
Trohn
The Chicago water tower was a much larger image and easier to
distinguish between parts.
This boxed castle is relatively small and has less detail.
With this said, should we be looking for a box with a castle
on it??
Any large boxed art sculptures?
Ths image that makes me think of this is what sits in front of
FAO in New York.....the other building landmarks were very much
stand alone figures... I do not think the Park Plaza fits with the image...
this is fitting the known to fit the unknown.
forest_blight
Unknown:
On another observation, that I have not seen
mentioned, the window behind her is not a solid
circle, but continues down and behind her.
I don't see what you're seeking, T. The window looks like a circle to me. The things you are looking at are ribbons or triails hanging off her upper arms, and the blue peeking through is just the same glow that surrounds the globe.
fox
while browsing thru page after page of images of historic Boston....I have seen several occasions of 'similar' buildings but no match yet. Boston does (or did) appear to be very fond of such styled bldgs:
hxxp://www.bpl.org/store/IMGS/medium/tm_02329.jpg
hxxp://www.bpl.org/store/IMGs/medium/tm_02062.jpg
hxxp://www.bpl.org/store/IMGs/medium/tm_02169.jpg
fox
I still think the circle will be a fountain
a la
fox
similar tower design with windows offset...
fox
similar funneled spire on Hotel Warren
fox
Old Grace Church on Temple St??????????????
fox
and yet another approach....
these 2 castles are in France but were built by King St Louis... notice that they have both the spired round towers as well as the main house w/ the pointed roof...
I am really beginning to hate that darn castle
Trohn
Is that
Ivy
on the Castle box
as well as on the front shield??
boogieman
Good one trohn. Here's a pic of Boston College. Lots of ivy. Looking for castles now.
hxxp://www.bc.edu/admission/undergrad/m ... 67x175.jpg
edit: and another pic.
hxxp://www.gradprofiles.com/images/bost ... -pic-1.jpg
boogieman
Somewhere along the Freedom Trail. Looking for the spot.
Here's the link to pic.
hxxp://www.mehras.net/usa_pages/08_20_b ... oston.html
Trohn
No castle... but here is the largest building (tower)
in Cambridge...
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Building_(MIT
)
The middle section is McDermott Cout,
a perfect circle.
Note the bilding's occupants.
Jambone
I do like the fact that the building has a planetary science section. It's hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like there are orbs on top of it. Potential match with the globe and orbs at the base of pic 11?
Trohn
Go to
www.mit.edu
They have a campus satellite map and virtual tour.
I think you can get so close you can read the books in the
library.
My probablem is that 'Ivy' should be related to Harvard
and Radcliff, not Boston College or MIT..
Harvard doesn't have any buildings that match up with
either the verse or the image...
MIT is on the water (face the water, back to the stairs)
Then again, Paul Revere doesn't have much of a link
to any of the Universities....
At midnight, Paul Revere ride over the Charles from
Boston to Charleston - between MIT and the USS Constitiution.
Similar to where the Museum of Science and Planetarium are at.
(no good other matches though)
I had a stab at trying to link this Image with Las Vegas (Sin City,
the Boxing capital of the US, city that is always llight)
I abandoned the idea with no clear cut path or guide....
forest_blight
Just took another look at this picture today, and I'm more sure than ever that 42 and 43 are the intended latitudes for P11. The 42 is obvious (armband), and the 43 is from the square and triangle dangling from her arm (4 sides + 3 sides = 43). The 112 also looks pretty clear, but it can't be a longitude because that would place us in remote southeastern Idaho; Pocatello is not exactly a hotbed of Italian immigration (and while it may
sound
Italian, it isn't).
So what are the hotspots of Italian immigration between latitudes 42 and 43? According to
one website
...
"Most Italians found unskilled work in America's cities. There were large colonies in New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit."
Fox pointed that out before. Of these, Chicago is out because we've already found a casque in Chicago. Baltimore, Philadelphia, and NYC fall too far south.
That leaves Detroit.
I really want this one to be Boston (and yes, it's between latitudes 42 and 43), but I just thought I would throw this out there just to be difficult...
Trohn
I have thought of Detroit in passing before
simply for its proximity to Canada.
Seems like an easy border jump.
forest_blight
We've thought about this a little, but not enough, I think. There is a symbol hanging off our girl's right arm:
I think this is an artistic rendering of two A's, one right-side-up and one upside-down. Thus, it could be a reference to something like AA, A's, or Double-A. So, what could AA (or whatever) mean? Maybe we won't know until we figure out the corresponding city, but we can speculate. I did not have enough time to sift through all 529,000,000 sites found by Google, but here is a list of candidates:
Alcoholics Anonymous (?)
American Airlines (?)
A. A. Milne (authored the 'Winnie the Pooh' stories)
double-A battery ('The Battery' has been considered in both Charleston and NYC)
A's (as in 'Oakland Athletics' baseball team)
AA is a team ranking system in minor league baseball
...and tons of other things. See Wikipedia:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA
Or -- and I really like this one -- A.A. could be the initials of a city that lies between latitudes 42 and 43 (like, I dunno,
Ann Arbor, Michigan
). Anything in Ann Arbor seem likely?
Trohn
BRAIN BLAST.
VERSE 10 with IMAGE 11.
This is the 'twin cities' of Detroit, MI
and Windsor, Ontario! (where cars abound)
These are each the car makiing capitals of their
reprective countries.
The beautiful thing here is: Isle of B:
Belle Island (in the Detroit River) was designed by
Olmstead.
The castle ---> city of Windsor.
(More research needed here, but this is a solid contender
for a Canadian casque.
Trohn
FB-
You are really going to pull your hair out with this one.
I saw your middle of no where comment on the wiki,
and said to myself, "What the hell" and pulled up my
'Castle web-site' from my bookmarks.....
look what is within your 'middle of nowhere'
coordinates....
hxxp://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/layton.htm
Strange, but true. I haven't pursued this any further yet.
What are the chances??
Trohn
Match up this image with the girl's
face and the iron works to this link...
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/infoworks/page4/
go down to "the statue of justice"
at the gate entrance!!
The 'birth of the justice system'
was at the building on the edge of this squre...
The Great House!
Trohn
And Boston is on '42' lattitude.
Trohn
Back to what we know to be true:
Boston Library has both "Thucydides" and "Xenophon"
outside near the fronting statues of Art and Science.
This postively ties in the verse.
To positively tie in the Image (beyond the '42')
consider the statue and what and how she is
holding:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/fatty/5217 ... t-1163947/
forest_blight
Trohn wrote::
Boston Library has both "Thucydides" and "Xenophon" outside near the fronting statues of Art and Science. This postively ties in the verse.
That verse gives me fits. If their names are on the east face of the library, then T would be
south
of X. And T and X were also chiseled into the wall at the Grecian Cultural Garden. Who knows how many places they can be found?
That's a good point about the globe, though.
Trohn
That verse gives me fits. If their names are on the east face of the library, then T would be
south
of X. And T and X were also chiseled into the wall at the Grecian Cultural Garden. Who knows how many places they can be found?
If the names are on the east face, along Dartmouth Street, then thatis exactly where
they should be.... in order for one to be North of the other.... (please confirm)
(Noth ould be towards Boylston and South would be towards St James)
The Statue of Science is at the corner of Dartmouth and Boylston streets (please confirm)
or that is the cloest corner.
As far as another aspect of the image/location .... the John Hancock Towers are known
for their reflective properties... just like the two table tops in the lower section pf the image.
As a tie in to the verse, wasn't Paul Revere riding to warn John Hancock about the British?
forest_blight
Both names are on the east face of the building. T is on the southernmost panel of the east face, and Xenophon is on the neighboring panel to the north.
Trohn
Forest -
Would 'T' be north of 'X' if you looked at it as reflected
in the John Hancock building??
forest_blight
That's a very good thought, but even in the reflection they would still be in the same north-south orientation. Only east and west would be flipped.
Trohn
You are right (of course)
but I was thinking outside 'the box'
I am taking the pandora's box buidling
to be not Trinity Church but
the reflection of Trinity Church in the
Hancock building.
If only to resolve the North-South delimma.
The line in the verse that is puzzling me more is:
"Take five steps in the area of his direction"
why the term 'area' and does 'his direction'
mean something physical (like a statue) or an
instruction ('Go west young man')
Boston Massacre (where five man were killed)
was documented in an engraving by Paul Revere
and is in the Arts Musuem.
Pine_Tree
I'm still thinking the symbol Forest shows above (opposing triangles, or square cut by diagonal) is 71. Rotate the image CW 90deg to see.
And within a given subcategory (magnetic versus geographic, for instance) north is north is north, independent of one's frame of reference. I think in this case it's used literally, and also is intended to give one the proper "ah hah!" moment to begin the trail.
Pine
boogieman
"If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction"
Well, what if Thucydides is
not
North of Xenophon like you guys say? Do you take five steps away from his direction?
Could BP be telling us just that. It should read "Thucydides is North of Xenophon, take 5 steps in the area of his direction".
Why the
if
?
forest_blight
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
A paraphrase of how I understand the beginning of the verse:
Find a place where Thucydides is north of Xenophon.
Good. Now that you've found it, look around for five
steps and walk up them. The meaning of the "his
direction" bit should be obvious if you're in the right place.
Trohn
OR if you find "his" in the reference,
it may indicate that you follow his
direction: (finger point, 'go west', a raised sword)
John Copley statue was placed in the square in 1992.
(he is not the his)
adoks53
my take on this, though i haven't really worked with it much, was that the 5 steps were 5 blocks. the tower of lights (perhaps a grouping of traffic lights hanging from a single mast-type thing. thats my 2 cents for the morning. oh yea, good morning all!
forest_blight
Both are reasonable possibilities. I think once you find Thucydides and Xenophon, the rest will fall into place.
And I think it is either deliberate or a
mind-boggling coincidence
that the names Thucydides and Xenophon appear both in Verse 3 and at the casque site for P4/V4.
I mean, c'mon already!
Thucydides
and
Xenophon??
What are the odds?
And if it's deliberate... why?
An aside: It's interesting that T and X's pal Polybius is named between them on the face of the Boston Public Library. He invented the 5x5 Polybius square that was the key to finding most of the tokens in
A Treasure's Trove
(
five steps
in his direction)?
Trohn
The coincidence may be part of 'The Secret' connection
between the sites. (the connector would be specifcally
mentioned/referenced in one casque site, while the connected
site would have no mention but 'there they are')
Another example... Sullivan Island 'solve' uses the image of
a Lion and the nearby street 'L'ON' as a confirmer. The
Milwaukee 'solve' doesn't metion a lion at all, but you
need to pass the lion face bridge right before you
walk the 100 steps into the culvert.
Thanks for the repost of the photo.
Looking at the photos, in Cleveland the
order is Xenophon - Thucydides.
In Boston, the order is
Thucydides
Xenophon.
Can we take 'North' to 'higher than' ?
Jambone
Trohn wrote::
Thucydides
Xenophon.
Can we take 'North' to 'higher than' ?
Interesting thought. If so, "Take five steps/In the area of his direction" could simply mean "go up 5 steps".
Trohn
"In the area of his direction"
Can 'area' be used here in the context
given to be mean 'a subject of expertise'?
Thucydides was a general and Xenophon
was a poet.
Looking around the square, we have:
-library
-religion
-business
-art
-history
-government
-science
Any solid leads?clues?
Jambone
Both were historians. For more info, see the wiki pages for Thucydides (
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides
) and Xenophon (
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon
).
Trohn
Here would be the
"in area of his direction"
in this regard.
hxxp://www.bostonhistory.org
hmm...
Kato
In keeping with the theme of Greece and these two Greek Historians, it should be noted that Boston is often called the "Athens of America."
fox
maybe the "If T is north of X" is just a sort of confirmer to ensure you are in the right place (have the right P/V connection) You get to Cleveland and see that T is SOUTH (below) X so therefore you know you have the wrong V. Just a thought.
I do think the "north of" refers to above....remember...north is always up on a map.
forest_blight
Bingo!
webshots.com and flickr.com are my favorite websites now. Found while trawling for photos...
In Copley Square:
More specifically, the fountain in Copley Square:
Even
more
specifically...
forest_blight
Can anyone find out when this fountain was installed? It might be too new, and I would hate for that to be just a water stain or something.
boogieman
"Other recharge systems have since been installed in Copley Square. In the mid-1950s, a recharge system was constructed at a triangular grass plot across Dartmouth Street from the Boston Public Library. In 1968, when Copley Square was redeveloped with its current sunken plaza and fountain, another recharge system was installed below the plaza. Both systems conveyed surface water runoff into the fill through perforated pipes laid in 3 to 5-ft. thick beds of gravel or screened stone." This was taken from the site below. Long read though.
hxxp://www.bostongroundwater.org/ceprep.html
Great photos FB. You're right.
BINGO!
Best confirmer I've seen to any image. Boston is lovely in summer. Who's there and who's going?
forest_blight
Thanks boogie - I feel much better now.
I wish I could go! But alas, I cannot.
forest_blight
If this is right, then the 42 and 43 make sense as bounding latitudes of Boston, and the globes certainly represent the Boston Globe, as has been suggested. I may be wrong about the "AA" square after all - it does sorta look like Copley Square. The larger swirls in the lower portion of the picture could be an S and a C for Copley Square (here I go making the data fit the theory again...).
But what's the Italian connection?
Whoever goes should look carefully for architectural details in nearby structures to match details in the image. They were all over the place in Chicago.
boogieman
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Nah! Couldn't be right here could it?
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/antydiluvian/89843068/
wilhouse
very nice FB.
perhaps it's time to update the chart of where we think treasures are located.
wilhouse
Trohn
Lets remember the flightless bird and the harpsichord lady...
for here it is "Feel at home"
- Gibson Mansion (?)
"All the letters are here to see."
My thoughts (forgetting those that have been
shot down due to the fact that the book was written in 1982)
- letters of the confederacy
- Ben Franklin correspondence (Dogood)
- Paul Revere engraving (is 18th day/12th hour simply to get us to Boston?)
- post office
- ya just gotta be there
forest_blight
IF Copley Square is our target area, I don't see any way around the proper verse being V3. The other candidates (V6 and V10?) don't seem as likely to me. So, going with that, let's see how well V3 and P11 together match Boston. A summary of the evidence:
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Both names appear in close proximity on the BPL's facade, which faces Copley Square. But why "North"? It isn't north!
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Whose direction? What steps?
A green tower of lights
In the middle section
The Hancock Building? It's tall and green, and maybe lit, but why "In the middle section"?
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
With metal walls
Is BP taking us on a walk through Boston,
away
from Copley Square? Or is this a reference to some nearby structure or business?
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
The water in Copley Square's fountain? Or the river?
Feel at home
Sit down and take your shoes off??
All the letters
Are here to see
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
From Longfellow's "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere." A reference to the nearby Longfellow Bridge?
In truth, be free.
Could refer to the inscription over the main entrance of BPL or to the quote of scripture inside Trinity Church, across the Square.
Details in P11 that
could
lead to Boston:
1. Chipped arch (Copley Square confirmer)
2. 42 and 43 (bounding latitudes for Boston)
3. Globe (Boston reference)
4. C and S (?) on robe
5. Castle on box may be Park Plaza Castle, about 4 blocks from Copley Square
Contrary evidence:
1. Apparent backwards 70 on left (her right) sleeve. Boston is bounded by 71 and 72.
2. Apparent lack of geographic features
3. What does it have to do with Italy?
Unknown:
1. Things outlined in her hair
2. Significance of Cooper's hawk
3. Significance of the fairy
4. Significance of arrow in wall, far right
Trohn
Picture detail that ties into this area:
The carved '71' in the arch for the longitude.
Statue of Science palming the globe
in the same manner that Pandora is palming
the castle box.
The two reflective green table tops
could be representative of the two
Hancock Towers.
Problem: "A green tower" (strongly indicates only one)
Question: 'In the middle section'
Is there anything significant between the two towers?
I am familiar with the WTC layout and immortalized by
Homer Simpson, the area betwen the towers. What is there in Boston?
forest_blight
A decent aerial shot of Copley Square, showing how the BPL, Trinity Church, and the fountain are oriented:
forest_blight
A "turret" on Trinity Church. Our castle?
forest_blight
If one drinks a beer and squints one's eyes, the shadowy upper panel looks like a capital B:
Coupled with the (possible) AA below it, BAA is the Boston Athletic Association, which sponsors the Boston Marathon. The finish line marker at Copley Square:
forest_blight
Another possibility for AA. John Singleton Copley was a member of the Royal
A
cademy of
A
rt, as it says on the pedastal of his statue:
Trohn
Statue was installed in 1992.
The Tortoise and Hare were installed closer to 1999.
I do not know when the permanent finish line was
installed but it looks fairly recent. Even tough the start,
finish, and course of the BM have not changed.
I am taking Trinity Church to be our representative castle.
(And the image of its reflection in Hancock to be the
castle on the box)
Another useless piece of information about a number of features
of the buildings and the immeadiate area: prominent checkerboard
brickwork. (possibly the unreferenced connector to another casque site)
hxxp://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/1b951a/
Trohn
Can someone come up with a reasonable explantion
why this would be saved on the internet?
It came up when I searched on
"letters" and "Copley Square"
hxxp://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_03 ... 3_P002.pdf
While MIT is no longer here, I wonder what is at 39 Trinity Place.
forest_blight
Another photo from webshots showing the same arch and strange mark:
boogieman
FB, there's no way BP is going to get someone standing at the spot where they have the same view as the pic you just posted, only to take you somewhere else. Somehow the verse, the BPL, with T and X, got you to stand here and see that fountain. I'm thinking you must face the water and see the BPL at the same time, which puts you close to Trinity, close to the fountain, by a lamp(light).
Check this out. Not much info on it.
hxxp://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1530584
A temporary coliseum at Copley Square? An obscure little tidbit. Kinda like the balloon off of Castle Clinton.
forest_blight
Wow, boogie, you may have found our mystery coliseum. Another possibility is that 'coliseum' is a reference to the fountain itself. Consider:
The Roman Colosseum or Coliseum, for comparison:
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
With metal walls
I have suggested before that
metal walls
could refer to the doors of automobiles; hence the verse could be read:
Near the road, where folks drive by the coliseum in their metal-walled vehicles
Flimsy, yes... but possible.
boogieman
We need a photo of the fountain from across the street on Boylston. Is this the Italian link, Colloseum?
forest_blight
Indeed, it could be!
Trohn
I think I have unraveled it:
hxxp://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2 ... y_boston-i
click on the map and look at the photo ops....
"If Thucydides is North of Xenophone
take Five steps in his direction"
Start at the East side of the Library in front of
the names. Note that Thucydides is higher than Xenophon.
Then take five steps North (his direction).
This puts you at one of the corners of Boyston and Dartmouth.
"A green tower of lights in the middle section"
hxxp://www.gov.ns.ca/news/details.asp?id=20011129003
See the photo ops on the map and note what you are
looking at here. The site of the Prudential Christmas Tree.
(the largest one in Boston - as noted from yahoo)
In this spot you can see:
- Trinity Church as reflected in John Hancock Towers.
- The Science Statue holding the world
- The Copley Fountain
And right here, your back is to the stairs and you are facing the water.
Last remaining bit:
"Feel at home, all the letters are here to see"
boogieman
What better way to describe a xmas tree but "a green tower of lights". Is Ameliaelf still around? Amymisha? Anyone in Beantown?
Trohn
hxxp://perljam.net/google-satellite-map ... ley_Square
SouthWest Corner of Boyston and Dartmouth.
Tour from West to East...
-Library and Science Statue
across the street
-Old State House
across the street
-Copley Square - site of Christmas Tree
Beyond that... Fountain, Trinty Church, John Hancock
-Behind you (Greek Names)
Question - What was at the spot in 1982
that the John Copley statue now sits?
boogieman
"Natural light floods the hall through
15 vaulted windows during the day, and green table lamps give the room a cozy
glow during twilight hours, a welcome change from the fluorescent lighting of the O'Neill Library. Computers, cell phones, and technology of any kind seem out of place here. It is a place for quiet concentration and reflection.
Just outside the calm of the BPL, Copley Square is teeming with activity. Shoppers dart in and out of stores carrying their bags, sharing the sidewalk with business people on their way home from work.
The elegant architecture of Trinity Chapel is reflected in the modern, mirrored façade of the John Hancock Building."
Interesting. Taken from the site below.
hxxp://www.bcheights.com/media/storage/ ... eights.com
edit: Ever see THE VERDICT? 1982 movie filmed in Boston, scenes from Copley Square.
Trohn
Can Paul Newman dig a hole?
forest_blight
I like the tower of lights being a Christmas tree, but isn't the tree put up at the Prudential Center, three blocks west of Copley Square?
Trohn
According to what I found, it is put up in Copley.
(cross referenced from independent sources)
hxxp://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2 ... g_boston-i
boogieman
hxxp://search.travel.yahoo.com/bin/sear ... _result=20
Puts it right at corner of Copley Square. Drag mouse to Copley square icon.
Trohn
hxxp://www.wcities.com/en/cat/197/34/category.html
Christmas Tree (600 Boylston)
Library (700 Boylston)
Pru-shops/Mall (800 Boylston)
boogieman
Now, where does the shovel go?
Trohn
At the home of the letters (?)
My real fear, is that it is now under the
John Copley statue.
Trohn
THE HOME OF THE LETTERS
(this needs some investigation)
hxxp://www.acmebook.com/
hxxp://www.societyofprinters.org/
hxxp://www.pine.org/nepp/2005/03_05/lead_3.htm
hxxp://www.hedden-information.com/book- ... dexing.htm
boogieman
If Thucydides is north of Xenophon, then you would take five steps to the corner, Dartmouth and St James. Opposite end of the BPL where the xmas would be, no? According to Ameliaelf's pics. You would not be going north actually. Just in the direction of Thucydides. Notice Thucydides is in the first set of names from the left face of the building. Xenophon in the second set, and south (meaning lower).
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/275 ... 1054GbDFhq
Trohn
Could go either way depending on how you
interpret the verse. You can follow in the direction
of the name or you can simply travel North or
you can decide that T is not North of X and walk away from him.
We need someone on the ground to scout it out.
I chose to go North because at that corner you
can clearly see the statue of sciecne.
Also, from that angle, you get an unobstructed view
of the reflection of Trinity Church with being blocked
by the church itself.
(This is purely fitting the facts into what we know...
In the image, does it appear like the jewel is being placed like the
star at the top of a Christmas tree?)
boogieman
Because T & X are near the corner, 5 steps in T's direction could be right on target to the end of the building (BPL). From there you may have the Pru Building in sight. Not that matters at this point. Going north would seem to fit better, but why 5 steps? 5 steps north still leaves you about what, 100 steps from the xmas tree?
Trohn
BP has found locations next to and behind immovable objects.
I believe the most likely place with all of the clues we have
figured out without setting foot on Boylston is
that it is behind the fountain just to the right of that
obelisk.
I see from the satellite green area around the fountain
and steps going up to the pool.
I reason the two obelisks are displayed on either side
of Pandora in the image.
And of that - when you most people open boxes?
(Chirstmas)
So it may be a dig very similar to Cleveland.
fox
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/abbyladybu ... t-1618086/
Is there another way we can look at or define "steps"? Maybe it is more than just walking 5 steps...like going up or down stairs...or some other form of step.
Keep up the good work guys, we are definitely zeroing in on this one....
Trohn
Hey Fox,
why don't you post "500 Boylston Street" to get everyone juiced up.
realize that the sky scraper was completed in 1985, but
who knows when they completed this entrance way.
you might be able to find the photo under also "Back Bay Garage"
It may not help for these purposes, but it is too perfect to not post.
hxxp://www.harrisonphotography.co.uk/li ... fm?key=229
fox
500 Boylston Street?
what am i missing?
niteowl9
Here's a (very) little history of Copley Square:
hxxp://friendsofcopleysquare.com/history.html
The note about 1966 made me think of the diagram on the womans collar/scarf which is 2 triangles
making a square. Maybe this is intended to be a diagram of Copley Square?
The page also implies that there has been extensive renovation of the Square, started in 1983.
forest_blight
niteowl9 wrote::
The note about 1966 made me think of the diagram on the womans collar/scarf which is 2 triangles
making a square. Maybe this is intended to be a diagram of Copley Square?
Trohn suggested as much a few days ago on the V3 thread, and I'm starting to agree with him. Here is how the square looked in 1960, much more of a square with a diagonal:
...and in 1910:
I'm sure better images can be found, hopefully dating between 1966 and 1983.
Trohn
Fox- et al...
500 Boylston Street.
"near those who pass the coliseum"
probably not, but think of the final confirmations
Jambone
I was playing around on Google Earth trying to get a feel for the Copley Square area of Boston. I took a screen-shot and then noted the locations of the fountain and Trinity Church. I also took a stab at tying the "AA" thingy to the map.
Jambone
What the heck... I spent some time flipping thru pages on
www.flickr.com
and kept seeing signs for the "T". I like the match with the perch the hawk/falcon is on, but it could be a stretch:
Trying to find a match for the bird itself, I did a search for "Boston bird statue" and found this (LOL
):
bclews
Jambone,
The "bird" pun may not be far off. The story was written at the height of Bird's career. I always felt that BP probably hid a sports emblem somewhere in the image. I noticed the shamrock on the fairy's wing; a Celtic's logo? (I know, I know, the Celtics logo only has three leaves.) You may have found another sports reference.
If plans don't change it looks like I may go into Boston tomorrow to check things out. I'm going to try to take a series of 360º photos to help give everyone a feel for the area(s). I'm going to hit the Copley Square area. While I can't be sure that I can hit everywhere that anyone suggests, I'm open to suggestions...
Bud
boogieman
fox wrote::
Whoa. That is not where I thought the tree would be according to Trohn's map. Whole new perspective...
Jam, nice connection with the
T
. Bud, looks like the entire area is up for grabs, meaning, can be anywhere. It would be better to have another set of eyes with you. Recon can make you dizzy.
boogieman
GLOBE! How long has that Bar/Cafe' been there?
edit: I called them. It has only been the Globe for 2 years. Good spot to take a break though, bclews.
forest_blight
Boogie - I actually looked that up a couple of days ago and forgot to mention it. I could have saved you the trouble (and cost) of a phone call - sorry 'bout that.
bclews - If you can, it would be a good idea to take pictures of the facades of buildings around Copley Square, particularly the north side. JJP used details like that in the Chicago picture.
Trohn
Boogie-
The tree is presumably in "the middle section".
The part of the square that used to be the road.
As part of a recon- I would love to see a replica of
Pandora's apron desgin. As well as "all of the letters".
bclews
My wife will be along for an extra set of eyes. The upside is she's MUCH better at spotting things than I am. The downside is she will probably do some shopping, and that's going to cost me.
The Globe does look like a nice place for a bite to drink -- thanks for the suggestion.
Here's another interesting 'globe' connection (wrong Copley, I know, but still interesting) --
hxxp://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/greavesandth ... opley.html
bclews
Interesting links to John Singleton Copley. Among others, he painted Paul Revere, Nathaniel Sparhawk, John Hancock, Mrs. Thomas Boylston, and Nicolas Boylston.
hxxp://cgfa.sunsite.dk/copley/
fox
forest_blight wrote::
bclews - If you can, it would be a good idea to take pictures of the facades of buildings around Copley Square, particularly the north side. JJP used details like that in the Chicago picture.
Would have to agree with FB here. Even the littlest things may be important. Was hoping to post the link but cant find it anymore....remember, the "collar" on the lady in P11 was found on a door in Milwaukee.
Good Luck,
boogieman
bclews wrote::
Here's another interesting 'globe' connection (wrong Copley, I know, but still interesting) --
Copley globes! Too much to be coincidence I think.
If it's not too late bclews, look for metal walls and a coliseum. I know we have ideas on this, but maybe something will stand out.
bclews
We had a great day in Boston. Beautiful sunshine, moderate temps, and a nice breeze.
We started at the BPL (closed on Sundays) and moved on to Trinity Church (church services going on) and the fountain area. I took a lot of photos including facades, scroll work, The Hancock Building, and a few dozen that will be stitched into 360º images. We also walked the mall (not the shopping mall) which is a couple of blocks north of the library.
FWIW, nothing jumped out at me. Sure, Thucydides and Xenophon said hello, but nothing lead me to anything definite.
There were, however, a few possibilities. Those three buildings surround a plaza of sorts. At the library end of that plaza are permanent flower planters. They are ground level, run along the sidewalk, and are currently filled with flowers. A matching set of planters also flank the fountain. Either set would be perfect for BP, though I think digging without being seen would be impossible. Plus other lines in the verse don't seem to make sense for this area. "All the letters", "Feel at home", etc.
Also, the Hancock Building certainly is green and it certainly is a tower.
FB, your suggestion that "metal walls" may indicate car doors kept running through my mind as every 60 seconds another "duck tour" would go by. They use old amphibious vehicles and the walls of the vehicles are made of metal.
hxxp://www.bostonducktours.com/
Unfortunately, that strange mark on the fountain was, apparently, nothing more than a water stain which has been removed.
So, my feeling is that IF we have connected this verse to this area correctly, then Copley Square may only be a starting point.
Tomorrow I will get the photos up for everyone.
BTW, we enjoyed our meal at The Globe!
Bud
forest_blight
bclews wrote::
Unfortunately, that strange mark on the fountain was, apparently, nothing more than a water stain which has been removed.
Well... darn.
boogieman
Thanks for the recon Bud. A little discouraged about the fountain, but they may have to remove that same stain every year. The water doesn't change direction, right? Keeps flowing the same way. May have been gouged and repaired. Who really knows. Too much stuff here to give up. Did you notice anything on this side of the church:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/friarbryan/189922619/
Looking at the circular design above monument.
bclews
Here are some of the photos --
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/
And these 360s are quick-stitch, low-res panos just to give everyone a feel for the area --
hxxp://www.crocker.com/~bclews/
More images to follow...
fox
just a couple of quick comments after intial viewing.
First off, thanks for the pix! Ok, I dont think it is an "exact" match but the scrollwork at the church north of BPL looks "very" similar to those on our lady's dress. To me...that is a match.
- I am still under the impression that the box castle in the P is a conglomeration of several buildings in the area since we have still yet to make a match. The turret/towers on Trinity Church seem right but the rest of the building doesnt.
- If the P lady "holding the box" is leading us to the BPL statue holding globe, maybe we are to substitute a globe in P (one on pedastal or in bracket) with the castle box? Is there a pedestal or bracket holding a block/box somewhere nearby?
We are getting close folks...lets keep going.
boogieman
I'm sold on this area. We need:
steps and stairs- 5 steps is 5 steps? doesn't mean blocks, streets or buildings right? or does it?
stairs- series of steps going up or down. fire escape?
near those who pass the coliseum- What is that building between the Hancock and the BPL, opposite the fountain? That looks more like the Roman Colloseum.
metal walls
home
letters
lamplight- all up for grabs.
Trohn
"Near those who pass the Colliseum"
"With metal walls"
Could this simpy be referring to a passing
train - a T stop.
(the colleseum is not the train - it is just a
reference point for to which the train is traveling)
bclews
A couple of ideas --
As you look up at the panels with the names on them you are probably standing on the sidewalk. If you are any closer, you can't see them. If you take 5 steps in the general direction of the names you are walking toward the BPL. There is a set of 3 steps, then another step, and then a bench-like platform on which to sit -- 5 steps?? If you take those 5 steps your nose is now touching the wall or a window of the BPL. I noticed that the hangings on the inside of the BPL's windows can be changed. I wonder what hangings were there in 1982 -- a coliseum perhaps?
Lamplight and globes might indicate the lights along the edge of the plaza. Look at the panos and find the one with the police car. Look to the right and you'll see a couple of lamps. There is also one to the left.
Trohn
Has anyone seen the photo to the T station
of the Green Line at Copley Square??
hxxp://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/schedules_subway.asp
Click on the green line and then Copley stop.
And then the station photo....
(did I see this on the panaramic?)
Isn't that a dead match?
bclews
I just added a picture of that station to my Flickr account.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/
Trohn
Bclews,
look at the other angle provided by the MTA.
boogieman
Trohn wrote::
Click on the green line and then Copley stop.
And then the station photo....
(did I see this on the panaramic?)
Isn't that a dead match?
Exact to what trohn. I kind of know, i think, but can you match it up?
edit: Nope. Don't know.
bclews
It's probably not related, but there once was a coliseum on Copley Square. It was temporary and made of wood, but it was huge (50,000 seats).
hxxp://www.lib.umd.edu/PAL/SCPA/ABA/Gilmore/24b.html
Just google "National Peace Jubilee" in Boston for some interesting reading. I would have loved to attend.
Trohn
BC, BM -
hxxp://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/schedul ... ame=Copley
Click on the station photo.
Dead Match.(?)
fox
dead match to what? or are you referring to the sign with the globe on it from other angle that is supposed to match the cross?
must be blind here......
Trohn
Uhh... The concrete ball.
fox
that concrete ball has an eagle on it...none of ours do, unless you put our bird on one of our orbs....
forest_blight
Trohn - I thought you were referring to the wrought-iron tracery around the T stop itself (which actually IS a pretty good match to the designs on our girl's robes). I didn't even notice the concrete ball. A dead match? In what way is it a dead match other than the fact that both are spheres, which are always dead matches for one another?
Trohn
Didn't see the eagle.
But it is round
I will now try and be helpful...
Symbols on left column of image: split square
square with dot in middle
simple checkerboard (nine squares)
Symbols on right coljmnof image: square with dot in middle
triangle with capped top and dot in middle
simple checkerboard (nine squares)
Split square (already discussed)
square with dot in middle (have not matched it up)
simple checkerboard (could be trinity church bricks - already posted)
triangle with capped top and dot in middle (look back at the photo of the T station)
.....?
Jambone
I haven't been able to find a really good photograph to make a comparison, but it looks like there are some square patterns in the brick sidewalks in Copley Square that
might
match the concentric square patterns in the lady's robes in image 11. Here's a photo that kinda shows the pattern (very bottom of picture):
Thoughts? Anyone get a better look at these (bclews)?
bclews
I've added a few more photos showing the sidewalk pattern and a symbol in the sidewalk in front of the BPL.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/
I'm not sure about the sphere with the eagle on it. There is also one at the front of the BPL, but if you use google earth to look at the area you can see that the whole sidewalk in front of the BPL was under construction when the photo was taken. So I don't know if the globes are new or if they were returned to their original positions. The same goes for the symbol in the sidewalk in front of the BPL.
forest_blight
And a picture of the street side of the fountain, from flickr.com:
bclews
As I look at forest_blight's icon, above, and I see the box opening, I get the impression that maybe BP is trying to tell us that, in this case, the casque is inside the box, or inside the building, or inside a structure. Maybe an indoor garden. Perhaps something like BPL's courtyard which, from the air, appears like a dot within a square (the fountain), and has both water and stairs.
Trohn
Bclews-
I must commend you on the thorough documentation of the area! A great job!
Too bad it leaves us with many of the same questions that we had going in.
In regard to your thoughts that it my be wiithin the courtyard or in a buidling,
I think that percentage is low due to:
-image shows us the front of the library
-verse has us start on the East side wall
- image shows outside buidlings of the area
- no inidcation (as with Fort Mourltire) that we need permission to retrieve.
Thinking laterally, what in this general area presents itself to be (1) permanent
and (2) secluded enough to dig a hole in relative peace?
Is this a stretch: (the bird is sitting on a 'T')
Face the water, your back to the stairs
(Your back to the subway stairs, facing the fountain)
(The Copley T stop is about five steps from the Greeks)
forest_blight
That is a good thought, bclews. But would it be easy to walk into the library with a shovel and satchel to dig a hole in the garden?
Trohn - where does the image show us the front of the library?
Trohn
Front of the library is signified by Pandora/Science.
I am posting the following
hxxp://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... 9&ei=UTF-8
to see if it helps job anything in anyone.
I like the write up of the Liberty Tree.
bclews
I agree that getting a shovel into the library courtyard would be pretty tough. However, there is a courtyard at the Trinity Church that is completely open, and is directly across the street from the green tower. But, it is holy ground; probably an unlikely spot. I've added a picture of it to my flickr collection.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/
I apologize for the slow trickle of photos to flickr. I'm trying to avoid running over my 20 MB limit on the free account. You can add 20 MB per month and I'm hoping that it is in a calendar month (since we just changed months).
Trohn, the T stop isn't five steps from the Greeks. In fact, it is on the other side of the building. Though we still haven't concluded exactly what "steps" are.
Also, I'm throwing out a lot of ideas as I would in any brainstorming session. I'm not attached to any, so I am not offended if you shoot them down. I only offer them as suggestions -- hoping it might trigger some thoughts and discussion.
And finally, looking at the image and looking for anything that might be hidden there, along with talk of water stains, must be getting to me. If you look at the courtyard photo that I just added, take a look at the bottom of the column on the right. I know it's just a stain, but I clearly see a face of a balding, bearded man. Weird.. (possible new tourist attraction).
bclews
Just doing more research and our favorite designer makes his appearance again. While Boston Common dates back to colonial times, and the Public Gardens to the 1860s, the "emerald necklace" which connects all of the parks was designed by Olmstead.
Trohn
I have the T-station at 209 Dartmouth.
I know that there may be multiple entrances,
but this address puts it on the East side of Library.
Olmstead, Lions, Weather Vane s, Churchs,
slaves, civil wars, OH THE TRENDS!!
bclews
It is actually at 640 Boylston Street between Dartmouth and Exeter. It's a bit closer to Dartmouth.
bclews
OMG! The image on the column is Olmstead! ;D That's too funny. And, No, I didn't put that stain there.
boogieman
Man oh man. Bud, this Boston thing is all yours until if/when we can get a team up there. I mean, internet pics just ain't gonna do it.
We need at least one team of three to seperate, meet back at the end of the day and compare, or 911 each other on cell phones during the recon to decipher this verse.
Reading FB's Chicago article, it took three teens with nothing else to do but hang out in Grant Park for six months until they found it.
fox
another possible approach to our open box....
This appears to be (or at least a lot of people refer to it as) Pandora's Box. Upon opening her box....everything flew out of it except for one thing....... HOPE. Is there anything Hope'ish around there? Hope Street, Hope Gardens, Hope somethingorother....
adoks53
i like the beams of light emitting from the box (edison, nj , anyone?) ...but all i found so far was mount hope cemetary in boston. hope someone else finds something better!
boogieman
Ok Adoks, I'll bite again on Edison, only because it is like 10 minutes from me. Beams of light? Box? What has it linking you to Edison?
I'll check into anything in the NY/NJ area if anyone can convince me there's a chance.
Trohn
BM -
where you at? I grew up in Woodbridge.
(not there now though)
boogieman
A stones throw from Raceway park in Englishtown. I'm actually in Monroe Twp. Went to school in Metuchen. St joes.
bclews
Tell me again why we think this is Boston?? I'm beginning to have my doubts.
boogieman
Well, the BPL for one, but that's the verse. T & X. The image looks Boston. Don't give up yet.
Trohn
One of the first things is : 42 on here wrist (the longitude)
Second: the Globe(s)
Third: 18th day, 12th Hour (Paul Revere Midnight ride)
Lite by lamplight
And then there's X & T.
kingwilson
I don't want to throw anyone off, but I still don't buy the 18th day, 12th hour = Paul Revere
The X & T is hard to avoid though, especially with the arches...
bclews
Yeah, I agree about "eighteenth day". If it referred to Revere wouldn't it be lit by "lantern"?
But we may have bigger problems --
Take a look at this photo first posted by Fox back in April of 2003.
hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg
The problem? None of this remains today. That fountain, those steps -- gone!
boogieman
bclews wrote::
Take a look at this photo first posted by Fox back in April of 2003.
hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg
The problem? None of this remains today. That fountain, those steps -- gone!
That is an old photo. From the sixties I bet. Can't really see the cars to judge, but look at the outfits of the people.
Trohn
It is an unspoken truth that some of these casques are going to be either
unrecoverable or lost forever in time.
It is to provide undeniable proof and evidence of where thet were
hidden and then determine if and when the location had been
compomised.
bclews
boogieman wrote::
That is an old photo. From the sixties I bet. Can't really see the cars to judge, but look at the outfits of the people.
Yeah, this particular design was from the late 60s, but it was redesigned in 1983. I'm continuing my research (between actually working) to determine exactly when the construction was done.
And as I pointed out before, Copley may only be a starting point.
amymisha
I'm still here... have just been lurking while my summer spun out of control....
Have camera, will travel.
Now that my busy summer is behind me (thank goodness) I have ample free time to take photos on weekends etc... I work in Central Square now, but don't have a problem jetting around the city on image hunting trips.
It seems bclews has gotten a lot done, but if there is anything else that needs pictures taken of it, post and I will jump on it. I'm going over old posts now, so will do some thinking on it all.
In the meantime, holler if you need anything.
amymisha
forest_blight
Looking due east from the north side of the Boston Public Library, 1941...
What snagged my attention was the wrought ironwork on the lamppost. I would dearly like to see more of it and compare it to P11.
amymisha - about that camera...?
amymisha
That scrollwork is intriguing.... I'll see if that lamp post is still there.
Probably this weekend... it's Misha's first day of school tomorrow (7th grade).
Amy
forest_blight
Any news on that scrollwork, amymisha?
bclews
I believe this is your scrollwork.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/202 ... otostream/
Bud
Jambone
That's an excellent match!
forest_blight
Shazam! Thanks bclews, that is certainly the scrollwork I was looking for. But I don't share Jambone's enthusiasm that it's a match to P11.
Jambone
I guess my reply wasa bit ambiguous, but I just meant that it was a match for the scroll work you were looking for, not P11.
Killian32
Hi everyone!
I am *extremely* new to this (only found out about "The Secret" yesterday...), but I am quite intrigued by the whole thing.
As far as this picture goes, the one thing that caught my eye from the start is the strange crack on the wall just a bit up and to the right of the "112". Maybe I missed it on here, but has anyone discussed what that could possibly be? My first guess was that it could be a waterway path (river, etc) the way it would appear on a map of the area.
But I have to say, you people are doing a *great* job.
forest_blight
Welcome to The Secret, Killian32! I remember spending two solid days catching up on all the postings on this forum when I first joined, and I'll be it's doubled since then. Lots of fun.
That crack has long intrigued me. No good theories have been offered, as far as I can remember. It could be a waterway, a road, a peculiar city block, an actual crack in a real rock wall... Whatever it is, I suspect it is a clue and not just an artistic flourish.
Killian32
Thanks for the welcome! And it's nice to meet you!
Yeah...I've spent the better part of yesterday and this morning going over everything that's been posted so far, and it's quite a daunting task.
But I agree that the crack means *something*. I just wish I knew exactly what.
Trohn
I would like to offer (without anything concrete)
that the buidling in the picture (behind Pandora)
is 'Old South Church'
with the castle on the box is the reflection of Trinity.
I think if you are standing with the proper orientation
as the image, you may know where to look.
Trohn
This one is for Fox.
hxxp://www.copleysquarehotel.com/maps/maps_todo.html
Looking behind (south?) from the BPL.
someone want to line up the 'castle' with this image.
Looks good to me.
fox
Trohn, not as an exact match as some of the other buildings depicted in the P's but I must say that is the best match by far that we have found since. Hopefully this will quiet the doubters at least momentariliy
regulus
who thinks that this P goes to Boston or Salt Lake City?
boogieman
Either Boston, or Sal Pregnant Fish Marsh.
shecrab
One set of the lat/long coordinates for this image point directly at Pocatello Idaho.
I never did understand the reasoning behind Salt Lake City.
c
adoks53
the old guy wants to put his vote in for Edison, New Jersey, ...one more time!
shecrab
I think I may have just found proofs that Pocatello is likely to be the location for this image. (In addition to the latitude and longitudes (42-112):
The first picture could be the "Castle" and the second is very like the shadows under the girl's chin.
fox
interesting finds SC. The castle looks similar to that of the box castle but (and only an opinion here) I am starting to think that since we have had so much trouble locating this castle.. it may just represent something other than imitate it. I am a little skeptical about the mountains. Yes, they look close...very close actually, but I think with enough looking, we could find several sets of like mountains all across the country.
One other thing that bothers me about Pocatello: We have..
*Chicago & Cleveland found
&
good theories on San Fran, Milwaukee, Boston, Montreal, NY, Charleston, New Orleans, etc... Why include Pocatello Idaho on this list? Makes no sense...
shecrab
Because the latitude and longitude match EXACTLY. That's where I usually start with these pictures.
42 and -112. 42 is in her cuff, and 112 is over by the flower.
The mountains aren't just "typical" mountains in the area---they are a
mountain formation
that is famous in the area:
Camelback Mountain.
That's the sort of thing I look for. There's another marker for this area, but I have to go home and blow up the picture and match it better first--I hesitated to add it to these because of its tenuousness.
But the hawk--that odd pattern of shadow on its body--the WHITE shadow--is simiilar to the SHAPE of the county Pocatello resides in. You can see that on Wiki (as much as I dislike using Wiki, they have okay maps). Also, the configuration of the counties surrounding the Pocatello area are similiar in part to the crack on the right hand side of the image--the one with the "7" or "L" at the end. I didn't put this up there first, because as I said, I wanted to make sure first--and the images are too small for me to work with here. I have to go home and use my tools on my home computer there.
You can check it out preliminarily, however, if you wish.
Pocatello has a website with several photos on it, including Camelback Mountain.
The other thing that I've noticed is that there are letters in the girl's sleeve on the right--That first letter might be an H and it might be an I, turned 90-deg. I'm looking for other markers also--not merely going on these. Believe me, I won't beat my ideas to a pulp...unless I find many many markers, I won't pursue a connetion. I also hesitate to post anything because until I have a long list of stuff, I'm always afraid I'll get yelled at for reposting old stuff.
The hawk itself is not "normal." That extra-long wing...and the raised talon--are some other sort of thing, not regular hawk parts. I've just started on this image myself, and haven't been working on it long.
I've already gone thru two images, and verses, though--and I'm only waiting for the ground to thaw to go dig in one locale.
ck
Killian32
Wow, nobody has posted anything on this image in months! Sort of at a standstill on this one, I am guessing.
I know there's a theory out there that these things are hidden on or very near to major waterways, so following that, it doesn't seem to me like Utah fits the pattern.
Am I being dumb, or have I missed something like Preiss confirming that there was one in Utah?
Sonoran
I would like review the latitude and longitude for this painting. There seems to be three sets of numbers in the painting.
There is a “112” in the flower area. This coordinate seems the most obvious.
There is a “41” in the stone window. This number is seems less obvious, but still stands out enough to be a good coordinate number.
With just the "41" and "112" we end up in the Salt Lake City area.
There is a “2” ”4” combination on the bracelet. It is tempting to combine these numbers to make a “42”, especially since we already have a “41”. One could then use these two successive numbers (“41” and “42”) to bracket the location as we have done in other paintings. But I suspect these numbers are separate (“4” and “2”).
The reasons are:
1. They are separated on the bracelet
2. They are in different style lettering
3. They are rotated different directions.
The other problem of using these numbers as a “42” to bracket the longitude between “41” and “42”, is we end up far north and very much outside of Salt Lake City, in a desolate area of Utah.
shecrab
The numbers in the window could be 91 or turned upside down, 16. They don't look so much like 41 to me.
Sonoran
I had considered that the window arch number could be another number besides 4.
Shecrab
reminded me that I did not mention a couple points.
When Palencar painted numbers he usually used typical handwritten forms. When Palencar painted 1s, 4s and 7s he most often opted for their typical straight lines. But maybe more importantly, when Palencar painted curved numbers like 6, 8, and 9, he usually used their typical curved lines. With the number in the arch being so squared and straight in its angles and lines the most likely number should be a 4.
The strongest evidence that 41 is our latitude is our alternatives. If we are confident in 112 for the longitude, the problem with the arch number being a 6 or 9 is that we get latitudes of 91 or 16. There is no such latitude of 91. That would have to be north of the North Pole.
And the latitude of 16, takes us far out in the Pacific Ocean.
So, Salt Lake City should be our location. Maybe the reason we were unable to make ground on this picture is we were not focusing on SLC. We haven't spent time discussing this city recently. What say you fellow hunters?
shecrab
Good observation about the numbers. I hadn't noticed the way they were written, only the numbers themselves.
I'll pay more attention now!
Killian32
I am really impressed with Fox's "Litany Of The Jewels" post on Tweleve, and I wholeheartedly agree that this section of the story is meant to be used as a clue/confirmer to the location of the jewels. So many of them seem to fit perfectly (the Hellas/Greek connection in Cleveland, Milwaukee having a deep German heritage, etc).
That being said, this picture is supposed to be tied in with an Italian heritage, and Boston is one of the five cities with the highest number of Italian-Americans (along with Miami, Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City).
I really feel this one is in Boston. Salt Lake City never felt right to me.
Just my two cents.
shecrab
So the latitude and longitude of Boston is 42 & 72--we have the 42...is there some sort of confirmation for the 72 in the image?
boogieman
The arrows point to highlighted #s. 71 and 91. They really stand out if you invert the colors.
Boston is 42 22' N and 71 2'W according to
hxxp://www.bcca.org/misc/qiblih/latlong ... SACHUSETTS
The 71 fits, but I don't know about the 91. I wonder if there is a store near Copely Square that has an address of 91. I think that has been covered already. As in some of the other images, you can switch these #s to make anything. 17 and 19?
Trohn
Its in the smoke.
The top number is not '112' becuase of the
bottom line of smoke that is at right angles to the two
verticle lines. The '4' is a L| style.
boogieman
I think it says 42 and 22. Just like the above coordinates 42 22"N. Where is 71 91"W?
shecrab
Actually, this is what I see: (and no, it's not a valid zip code)
shseverin11
boogieman wrote::
I think it says 42 and 22. Just like the above coordinates 42 22"N. Where is 71 91"W?
I was just about to post the same thing. I have always seen it as 42 2, at least when I look at the picture in the book. I hadn't noticed the other 2 in there before, but I see it now.
As for inverting the colors to see the numbers at the top of the page, why not count the first "1" in there, too? Then it would read 17191. As Boogieman suggested, this could be an address.
Since we're all looking for the matching coordinate (and we know how we can make anything fit if we try hard enough), we could see 72 in the sash hanging behind her right arm. I'll try attaching the pic.
If we are looking for 71 2' , then we could re-think the wrist band on her left hand. As Shecrab pointed out, the numbers 7 and 1 were usually drawn in straight lines. The "4" that we think we see has the top corner of it cut off in the picture. Maybe it's drawn that way because it's a 7 and 1 overlapping, not a 4. Then the 2 beneath would make sense as 71 2'. It's a stretch, I know.
I'm happy to see new ideas and old ones revisited. This board has been so quiet lately.
turtle123456
Here is a picture of the bird. He is in liberty park in salt lake city
Sonoran
Wow, there are a lot of ideas on numbers! This number search reminds me of looking for shapes in clouds; everybody sees something different. No wonder this is a tough location to move forward. I will stick with Salt Lake City for my cloud formation
, for now, and see if I can dig up some matches.
Turtle
, although I don't expect a perfect match, that bird is close to a dead ringer for the perched bird. Nice find!
Sonoran
I compared the building on the front of the box to a few buildings in Salt Lake City, including the Mormon Temple and the Salt Lake City and County Building. Both structures resemble the image on the box. I am not sure which building is a better match.
As far as the image being presented on the side of that box, our connection may be that the image is on a
square
side of the box. I see two possibilities.
• The Mormon Temple is located in
Temple Square
. The light coming out of the box could mean the up lighting from the top of the Temple seen brightly at night.
• The City and County Building is surrounded by an established square park named
Washington Square
. I am not sure how this building looks at night.
johann
I hope we are right on this. I thought this image was for St. Louis, and I sent Byron Preiss a very elaborate (and very wrong) solution.
forest_blight
Something to remember is that there is no guarantee that the casques must be buried in an urban area. For example, we think there may be one buried on Roanoke, and there is no large city nearby. So even if the coordinates do not *exactly* match Boston or SLC, they could reference a location close to one of these locations - close enough for oblique references to the nearest urban area to still be helpful even if the casque is not physically there.
digger7
Those are beautiful buildings but unless I am missing something(which is entirely possible) I don't think they match the building in image 11. Remember that the Milwaukee City Hall building in image 10, the Terminal Tower building in image 4, and the Chicago Water Tower in image 5 are spot on matches.
digger7
Sonoran
This fountain, next to the Salt Lake City and County Building, may be a good match for the fairy. I like the raised arms holding an object, very similar. I have found no information on this fountain except that it is one of two fountains on the West side of the building.
The various pictures for this compilation were found at Flickr at the following links.
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/tyreseus/150050683
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/pbo31/1283459547
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/7754349@N03/1048154938
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/matt_carroll/366776306
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/darthphilburt/452602988
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/darthphilburt/452602998
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/31425651@N00/1190356902
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/14018117@N07/1440178709
turtle123456
Sonoran this is a great match for the fairy ,I would agree with you that this is the meaing of the fairy, taking picture 11 to salt lake city
Sonoran
digger7 wrote::
Remember that the Milwaukee City Hall building in image 10, the Terminal Tower building in image 4, and the Chicago Water Tower in image 5 are spot on matches.
I agree
digger7
. I expected a better match. I do like the box's parapet match to the Temple's parapets. What we may have, instead of a good spot on match, is a collection of partial confirmers adding up to one solid match? One of those confirmers may be the similarity of the painting window and the Temple windows.
Sonoran
Here is the painting window next to a flipped window from the temple. I like how the arch that travels half way around the circle can be seen in both images. I like how both images have that stone feel, including the lines and texture.
In the process of giving you guys a good side-by-side look at the window match I came across a very interesting picture with very interesting shadows. The shadows seem to mimic the "crack" in the painting window. The shadows come from some pencil like pole sticking out at the bottom of every window in the temple. Although I find the shadows very compelling, I wonder how common they are throughout the year. But wow!
turtle123456
WOW what a perfect match to the image. I think it is almost time to go to salt lake city and dig up the casque. Sonoran you have done a great
job
at
calibrating
the picture to actual objects
shecrab
While you're in Salt Lake city, you might want to check this out--note the "guest artist!"
hxxp://www.whc2008.org/
I nearly fell over!! I got this from putting the words "Castle, Salt Lake City" into Google!!
digger7
I'm still not convinced about the building but I do like the statue representing the fairy and the "crack" below the window is definitely intriguing. This is great work Sonoran
Sonoran
The best match I have found on the spheres in the painting is the
Seagull Monument
.
Pluses:
The Seagull Monument is a well known landmark of the area.
The Monument sphere is uniformily round, like the painting.
The texture is similar in the painting and the Monument.
In one image the the sphere is placed on a pedestal
Minuses:
There are three spheres in the painting.
Questions:
Why is one sphere in the painting portrayed as globe?
Why is one partially displayed?
There are also multiple spheres on top of the Salt Lake City Temple.
Sonoran
I looked all over Salt Lake City for a perched Hawk, Falcon or any bird of prey. Then for the fun of it, I tried to see how common it is to find statues or fountains that have birds of prey in a perched pose, anywhere in the world. I found perched poses extremely rare and almost nonexistent in birds of prey. Sculptors seem to show birds in action with wings extended or in flight.
With the rareness of these poses in mind, I think
Turtle
's eagle is very likely the one portrayed in the painting. I was able to track down a couple more pictures. It looks like that eagle fountain is centered in the main walkway in Liberty Park in the southern area near Tracy Aviary. If this is the bird from the painting, it seems like it would be too obscure to be a prominent city landmark. So, I wonder if this would be more of a final location or park confirmer?
forest_blight
The bird in P11 is not an eagle, it's a hawk. Eagles have huge beaks that take up half their heads. But hawks (for example, Cooper's hawks) have tiny beaks just like the bird in the picture. There birds do not resemble each other.
regulus
i agree, i'm assuming that the birds will be an EXACT match... this P is proving to be the most difficult
Sonoran
forest_blight wrote::
The bird in P11 is not an eagle, it's a hawk. Eagles have huge beaks that take up half their heads. But hawks (for example, Cooper's hawks) have tiny beaks just like the bird in the picture. There birds do not resemble each other.
I agree. That bird in the painting looks much more like a Coopers Hawk or even a Peregrine Falcon. I was so convinced I spent weeks earlier this year looking for hawk and falcon connections in the Salt Lake City area. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a better/ correct match out there, but we should be careful when we are only looking for exact matches. Palencar uses artistic license in his paintings. In fact, I think it is necessary to obscure most images that are too recognizable. We may need help on this if there is a widespread belief that the eagle fountain cannot be a match. Has anyone come across a better match for the bird?
Sonoran
There seems to be enough evidence for Salt Lake City for this painting to try the next step of matching a verse. A few things about Verse 2 seem to ring true for me.
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
These lines always fit the Mormons of Salt Lake City for me.
My real purpose for this post is not those lines though. I want to share some thoughts on:
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
These lines seem so out of place. As gathered from dictionaries and Wikipedia a
Gnome is dwarflike creature who lives underground and guards buried treasure.
So what is would a gnome admire? Gold color? Gems?
I use to think Fay was only a reference to Fairies, but a recent internet search revealed another interesting Fay. Fay Wray was an actress best known for her role as Ann Darrow in the original
King Kong
movie. It turns out Fay Wray grew up in Mormon communities including Salt Lake City. I’m not sure what that all means, but I thought I should share in case someone can make sense of it.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fay_Wray
shecrab
This is just my two cents, but I think we are jumping the gun here. I don't necessarily think this image is Salt Lake city, when there is still much speculation on the lat/long numbers. Also, the eagle does not look like the hawk, and the Mormon temple does not look like the castle on the box--and the window had to be turned upside down to make it fit. It looks like we're trying to get the image to fit an idea, not the other way 'round.
That box castle looks a bit like the Disney logo (Cinderella's castle) which might point to either Orlando Florida or Anaheim California, Lat/Long notwithstanding. It's as much a resemblance as anything else that's been suggested.
I think we really need to do more examination before deciding on a location.
Sonoran
Killian32 wrote::
I am really impressed with Fox's "Litany Of The Jewels" post on Tweleve, and I wholeheartedly agree that this section of the story is meant to be used as a clue/confirmer to the location of the jewels. So many of them seem to fit perfectly (the Hellas/Greek connection in Cleveland, Milwaukee having a deep German heritage, etc).
That being said, this picture is supposed to be tied in with an Italian heritage, and Boston is one of the five cities with the highest number of Italian-Americans (along with Miami, Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City)...
I like this as a confirmer too.
Killian32
did you find any Italian immigration in Salt Lake City?
Killian32
According to a few sites I have checked out, like this one...
hxxp://www.utahtravelcenter.com/statein ... alians.htm
...there WAS a pretty good stream of Italian immigrants flowing into Utah. So my earlier assessment that it couldn't be Salt Lake City may have been, uh, flawed.
This picture is honestly (in my opinion) the most frustrating of the lot. It just feels like there isn't as much to work with here. There are just so many little things about this picture that stick out for me and feel like they should be significant, but might not be, like the one section of her collar that is shorter than the others, the crack on the wall just diagonally above the numbers, or the design on her robe. I think the building on the box was meant to be a HUGE confirmer, but we're just having a hell of a time with it. What if it's not even there anymore?
shecrab
Okay, I thought that the idea of the Litany of the Jewels corresponding to the countries/fair folk in certain areas of the US was pretty cool--and it pans out with the two casques already found. So what happened
here
?
Salt Lake City is not a hotbed of Italian immigration, according to the BOOK. Those areas, from the list in the back, would be "all borders", (Canada/Mexico/Florida), Tennesee, and North and South Dakota. That narrows this search down quite a bit, if you limit it to those areas.
I know the latitudes and longitudes do not correspond with anything found
so far
, but that many mean the numbers are faulty--not the idea. And if you look at South Dakota, a couple of things really stand out as very significant.
Mitchell SD
--google it--and you'll find a reasonable facsimile of your box castle.
The Corn Palace.
Not only that, but the designs on the side of the Corn Palace at one time (and maybe at others?) were/are very similar to those on the woman's dress collar, cuffs and front. They change yearly, but there hasn't been a wide range of different designs. Number TWO: Across the street from this oddity is another one: A CASTLE. Literally. A castle. It's a doll museum. So the turrets and the crenellated wall might be represented by one or both of these structures.
There is one more thing as well, making it the THIRD thing (the three "stories" of Mitchell?)-- there is a music museum there. I'd wager that "woman, with harpsichord," might be open to interpretation in this place. They have a goodly collection of keyboard instruments. There might be other confirmers for verse 8 here as well.
The latitudes and longitudes of South Dakota range from 42-46 and 96-104. It has possibilities. Enough that I think maybe this merits as much exploration as the Salt Lake City ideas. There has been so much speculation about the longitude number that no one has yet agreed on what it is. 112 is certainly a possibility, but so is 97, 91, etc.
Killian32
Verse 8 fits *so* well with the Milwaukee burial, though. I would hate to think that it doesn't match the Milwaukee picture.
I completely agree, though, that when you look at all the other locations (found, verified, or speculated), Salt Lake City just doesn't feel right. My gut instinct always told me that there is one up by Oregon or Washington, just to spread them out across the states. Could this picture be one of those locations?
I wish the skyline in her hair was easier to match up with something.
boogieman
Killian32 wrote::
I wish the skyline in her hair was easier to match up with something.
This is just an example. A face that looks like.....glow worm, looks exactly like the northern part of NJ on a map. Many of the images have faces. Image1 seems to have the face of JFK just above the rose, when rotated once to the right. Image9 seems to have a face on the hat, top right side when rotated once to the left. I thought it outlined St louis pretty good. You can look back at the Image9 thread and see it. Image3 seems to have a face of Ziggy. What it means, I don't know. But they are there for a reason.
Image2 has the face of Frankenstein on the map of Charleston when turned upside down. Neck bolts included. Even Image11 has a face. It is looking at the Fairy holding the jewel.
I had hoped they could all be maps.
Sonoran
There are many images in this painting that I have yet to come close to matching. These elusive image matches include the:
Two tables at the bottom
2 and 4 on the sleeve
Opposing "A"s on the top left side clothing drape
Square inside a square symbols
Triangle inside a triangle symbol
Vine like scrollwork on the middle drape
Prominent crack/ line on the lower right or the window
Anything in the hair
Turtle
and I were scrolling through some Salt Lake City Temple Square pictures this afternoon. One of the pictures caught his eye as it passed by. When I scrolled back to the picture he wanted to see, sure enough, we saw a nice match for the tables at the bottom of the painting. The following fountain is in Temple Square on top of the Conference Center. More and more I am becoming convinced this casque is in the Salt Lake City Temple Square area.
shseverin11
At the moment, I'm not really leaning to any theory regarding place more than another. But in doing some research on Salt Lake, I did find this picture of the North Temple's Visitor Center. It's a replica of "The Christus." The earth and the moon in the background stood out to me. Some people describe the dome as planetarium like.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakl ... center.jpg
Sonoran
shseverin11 wrote::
At the moment, I'm not really leaning to any theory regarding place more than another. But in doing some research on Salt Lake, I did find this picture of the North Temple's Visitor Center. It's a replica of "The Christus." The earth and the moon in the background stood out to me. Some people describe the dome as planetarium like.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakl ... center.jpg
Nice find
shseverin11
! There seems to that recurring Mormon planet/ moon theme in the Temple Square architecture. The outside temple wall has different moon phases.
shecrab
This might prove useful for some people. I found it very helpful in looking at some of the pictures to reverse their colors in Paint and look at them with fresh eyes. It's more obvious sometimes what elements are supposed to stand out and which are probably inconsequential. For instance in this one, it seems that each "bubble" or sphere is near an element that might be important. That's what it looks like anyway.
Enjoy:
shecrab
Sorry for any confusion this causes...but I posted a pic of what I thought was the castle on the box in Image 11, tying this image in with this verse. I was incorrect--the castle in question could not have been the one depicted, because it wasn't there until 1985, even though the rest of the park it's in was there from 1971. Sorry if you saw it. I've removed the pic and the posts.
Sonoran
With the image colors inverted the things that show up more for me is the "112" and the checkers off the sleeves. I am real curious what those checkers are. They are not prominent so I am not expecting much, but it would be fun to see them show up.
regulus
we have 42 for our first coordinate, perhaps the square and triangle on the sleeves could stand for 43? square=4 triangle=3.
sorry if it's been mentioned. sounds solid to me.
-regulus
Sonoran
It is looking like 2 and 4 are going to be something other than a latitude. Because the latitude of 42 is up at the Idaho and Utah border and we are narrowing in on Salt Lake City (on the other side of latitude of 41), we can't use it to bracket our casque location.
The good thing about the 2 and 4 not being part of a lat/ long coordinate is we can use them for support in the clues department instead. I wondered if the numbers stood for something like 2nd and 4th Streets, but I haven't seen a fit yet. The solution could be very obvious once we find it, but I remain stumped.
shecrab
WHY does this have to be Salt Lake City? Because the temple slightly resembles (and really it IS only slight!) the box castle? If you had seen the image I posted yesterday of the castle in Aberdeen South Dakota, you would have been convinced
it
was the place--there was far more than a slight resemblance--but unfortunately it couldn't have been because it wasn't there yet in 1981.
Not only that, but since when are the numbers NOT latitudes and longitudes? In every image so far, those numbers are like gospel. Now all of a sudden, because they don't fit ideas that this casque is buried in SLC they don't count? That seems highly inconsistent to me. And it also seems as if we're trying to force the location based on one small element. That's a nonproductive way to look at it, as I've been told before.
I think we've gotten caught up in a sort of fever here--a fever for one place, that isn't proven and doesn't have much evidence to back it up. Let's USE the numbers we are given to mark the PLACE first--and go from there, no matter WHERE that place is. There is a very definite 42 on her cuff. There is a speculative 112 under the fairy. In the circular window there is a 77 on the left and either a 41 or a 91 on the right. Either that, or the entire circular window frame has the number 77 141 or 77 191.
42-112 could be the area north of Salt Lake City. But it's
quite a bit
north. This coordinate lands you almost directly on the border of Utah and Idaho--closest town, Malad (Idaho) which oddly enough, lies on "Old Highway
191
."
41-112 is closer to Salt Lake City--though the exact coordinates pretty much dump you right in the lake itself.
42-91 is Cedar Rapids Iowa
42-77 is Corning NY (I would say this one was the most tenuous).
So there are other places here you might explore instead of being fixed on the one place, and trying to make everything fit that location. I applaud the efforts made, but I think the logic is a bit fuzzy.
Arguments against SLC:
1:
41
is the correct coordinate, and there isn't really a GOOD representation of 41 in the image at all. The only one that shows up is in the circular window frame, and it looks more like a 9 to me. The 4's I've seen are made like triangles, not squares. I'd be inclined to say it's not a 4 at all. The 9 is quite clearly made, as you can see from the reverse color image.
2: The box castle does not look like the Mormon temple. It just DOESN'T. I'm sorry, but the only resemblance is that the M. temple has spires. The box castle has turrets and a crenellated wall, and the turrets are not all the same height. The M temple has four spires ALL the same. There are round windows in the M temple, but so what? There are round windows in a lot of architecture. That proves nothing. Note also that the turrets in the box castle are round--and that one of them bears two windows. Those are not features of the M Temple. Additionally, the roofs are concavely made on the box castle--they swoop in a curve from tip to ends. The M temple's spire roofs are not curved. The box castle looks like a short square crenellated wall with a turret bearing two windows behind it, with a smaller turreted spire next to it--even separate from it. A tall peaked-roof building stands behind the crenellated wall. This doesn't resemble the M temple in any way shape or form.
3: other Image elements are either being ignored or unused to keep this fixed on SLC. The hawk--ignored. Yes, SLC has a seagull monument. When has a seagull ever resembled a hawk?
4: the peridot is the jewel for this painting...and the peridot comes from Italy according to the Litany. Why is SLC suddenly a likely candidate when there was not a large Italian immigration into the area? Also the litany and chart in the book point to three locations for Italian fair folk: the borders, Washington DC, and THE DAKOTAS. Nothing about Utah or the west here.
I'm not trying to lecture, but I really do believe this SLC connection is just way too tenuous. I think we need to explore other places.
shseverin11
Here's a castle in Washington DC. I think it resembles the tower on the box.
hxxp://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/4C84H0P_ ... E5-KgeUcBQ
Sonoran
shecrab wrote::
WHY does this have to be Salt Lake City? Because the temple slightly resembles (and really it IS only slight!) the box castle?
shecrab wrote::
Not only that, but since when are the numbers NOT latitudes and longitudes?
shecrab wrote::
I think we've gotten caught up in a sort of fever here
shecrab wrote::
So there are other places here you might explore instead of being fixed on the one place, and trying to make everything fit that location. I applaud the efforts made, but I think the logic is a bit fuzzy.
shecrab wrote::
Arguments against SLC:
shecrab wrote::
2: The box castle does not look like the Mormon temple.
shecrab wrote::
3: other Image elements are either being ignored or unused to keep this fixed on SLC. The hawk--ignored. Yes, SLC has a seagull monument. When has a seagull ever resembled a hawk?
shecrab wrote::
I'm not trying to lecture, but I really do believe this SLC connection is just way too tenuous. I think we need to explore other places.
The main reason we are exploring the Salt Lake City angle is the belief in the latitudes and longitudes. Secondary reasons, so far, include matches (not always perfect) to the fountain in downtown SLC, the stone windows on the temple, the building on the box for the temple, the tables on top of the Conference Center, and the spheres for the Seagull Monument.
This is great point! I think we can find a few consistencies in the twelve paintings. I’ll post that later.
Yeah, but it is fun. Come join us.
I think we should explore SLC first.
Thanks for checking my theories. I think.
I disagree. Although we should not always expect perfect matches the simple building on the box seems a good match to me, including the parapets and the tops of the temple.
This is my top choice for now. If you can find a better match please let us know. This is Eagle Gate next to Temple Square.
Why not try this one first though. I invite you to continue your research on a Salt Lake City solution.
shseverin11
Not sure if this has been mentioned...but since numbers are still up in the air, I see a backwards 07 on her right elbow. This is more obvious if you invert the colors. Maybe there's a 70 in this equation?
Sonoran
Some general rules I have noticed:
• Every painting has a coordinate system.
• The numbers are not hidden from view but camouflaged in some way.
• Coordinates can point to a center area with one number.
• Coordinates can bracket an area with two numbers.
• When there are two latitudes they are both displayed (hidden) in the same way.
• When there are two longitudes they are both displayed (hidden) in the same way.
The primary reasons we can dismiss the 2 and 4 as 42 are:
• The 2 and 4 are in different scripts or fonts.
• The 2 and 4 are separated on the bracelet in different panels.
The secondary reasons we can dismiss the 2 and 4 as 42 are:
• We have evidence of a Salt Lake City location. Latitude of 42 would not work for SLC.
• The 41 in the window is displayed in a different font than the 2 and 4. So no 41 and 42, it should be one or the other if we follow convention.
Beyond all those reasons, why not. Why not give SLC and 41 and 112 a try?
scottrocks7
I think this may be the image for the Canadian casque.
I know alot of you think this is Salt Lake City and Temple Square is the solution. However, in addition to the arguments against SLC listed above I have a few reasons why it might not be Temple Square:
1) It would be hard to sneak into in the middle of the night to burry the casque
2) A considerable part of Temple Square is not open to the public
3) It would be hard to be allowed to dig under any condition
4) It would be disrespectful
The key to figureing out where this image represents is to find out exactly what and whear the building in the box is. It could be Halifax Nova Scotia. I have been to Halifax and seen some similer looking buildings but not that paticulaar one it could also be Quebec. It could also be a building that is no longer there but was historically significant in the past.
shseverin11
I'm not convinced of SLC but I do think the picture of the lion heads posted on the Verse 11 thread do resemble the profile "face" in the woman's hair.
Shseverin11
shecrab
Unknown:
Yeah, but it is fun. Come join us.
Oh, I'm with y'all, but I'm not WITH ya'll if you know what I mean!! LOL.....
I just dont' think this is SLC. I dont' think there is much that will convince me if what has been found SO far can't convince--but then that's the fun with this puzzle. It's not just one opinion or idea that makes it interesting. I'm going to try to explore other places and other ideas, and you can explore the SLC ones, and we'll all be happy!
Sonoran
shseverin11 wrote::
I'm not convinced of SLC but I do think the picture of the lion heads posted on the Verse 11 thread do resemble the profile "face" in the woman's hair.
Shseverin11
Very interesting
shseverin11
! Would you explain what matches for you? I'm hoping to see what you are talking about, but am having trouble making it out. Are you talking about the lower right area where the haircut line does some unusual shaping next to the flower? That has always been intriguing to me. Something looks intentionally out of order, but I could never match anything.
shseverin11
Sonoran wrote::
Are you talking about the lower right area where the haircut line does some unusual shaping next to the flower? That has always been intriguing to me. Something looks intentionally out of order, but I could never match anything.
Yes, I'm talking about the hair line. I've attached a pic that I've flipped and rotated to line up with the picture of the lions on the building. Hope that makes it clearer for you.
Shseverin11
Sonoran
forest_blight wrote::
...To my mind, the only thing pointing to Salt Lake City is that tenuous 112 in P11. But if you believe that, you have to toss out the clear 42 and 43 references in the image (her cuff and sash), because SLC is not between latitudes 42 and 43. It is between latitudes 40 and 41...
I probably didn't explain this well enough the first time or we may have gotten off track. Sorry about that.
The 41 is a possible number from the top of the window.
The 112, of course, you know well from the shadow of the flower.
The triangles and squares on the sash may be just that. Palencar has never used this method to display other coordinates. I think there is no need to make the latitude and longitude numbers difficult to decipher. They are general clues to get us to a city and he has decided to only camouflage them at the most in the twelve paintings. The squares and triangles surely represent something, but this theme is echoed through out her wardrobe. I suspect they are some other confirming clue. Maybe they are a theme of the area.
The 4 and 2 weaknesses I explained in an earlier post.
You have my respect as a good researcher and observant hunter
forest
. What would help me, instead of just sharing beliefs in a different solution, is sharing observations of the painting matches I have proposed so far, even if you completely disagree with the direction it may lead.
These SLC matches primarily include a compelling match of the "woman holding a pot" fountain and the window.
forest_blight
Unknown:
You have my respect as a good researcher and observant hunter forest. What would help me, instead of just sharing beliefs in a different solution, is sharing observations of the painting matches I have proposed so far, even if you completely disagree with the direction it may lead.
I'm sorry if I come off sounding contrary, but in the absence of any clear revelations the best way I can help is to poke holes in other people's theories. It's nothing personal, but if a theory is good, it will survive repeated assaults. There are lots of theories floating about, and the search for confirming evidence does little to help when there is so much uncertainty. Finding ways to reject these theories is one way to keep things moving along and encourage exploration of more promising avenues.
It is *easy* to find confirming evidence when you are looking for it, but 99.9% of the time it ends up being a big waste of time. I was sensitized to this by the book
Quest for the Golden Hare
by Bamber Gascoigne, which I highly recommend. The author details the mania surrounding the first big hunt of its kind, based on the book
Masquerade
by Kit Williams (
The Secret
was Byron Preiss' American answer to
Masquerade
). Armchair treasure hunters -- just like us -- came up with some pretty wacky theories that seemed reasonable (to them) at the time, but in hindsight were built on very shaky foundations.
The "very shaky foundation" in this case is the 112. That 112 is the only reason we are even considering SLC. If it had been 35, we might be looking for confirming evidence in Amarillo, and trust me, we would find it! Everywhere you look there are things that vaguely resemble objects from these pictures. Humans are really, really good at finding commonalities among objects -- we can't help it. But it's just not a good strategy in a hunt like this. You have to constantly police yourself and ask "is this crazy?" In this case my answer was "yes," so I abandoned the idea and moved on. There is too much counterevidence for me to take SLC seriously anymore.
So here is my observation: If we ignore the 112, what is there? Nothing that could not easily be found in any other American city with even a modest amount of searching. There are table-like objects everywhere, and circles and squares everywhere, and cracks in stone facades everywhere. There are birds, and statues and sculptures of birds, everywhere. SLC doesn't match the theme of the book at all -- there is no history of European/African/Asian/Middle Eastern exploration or immigration, and SLC is in a land-locked area. Yes, the Mormons migrated there, but they are a home-grown tribe. Even if you don't buy the 43 theory (from the square and triangle), it doesn't matter, because SLC still does not conform to the established latitude/longitude theory. The 42 disconfirms it. The fact that there is an unmistakable 42 in the picture to me increases the likelihood that the square and triangle should be interpreted as 43. Together, these conform to Fox's latitude theory quite well, and no one has disconfirmed that theory to my satisfaction. So, until a better theory comes along, I will continue to believe the combined 42 and 43, which rules out SLC, more than the single 112, which may or may not be a longitude. Heck, it may not even be 112.
My point is not that "confirming" evidence isn't important, but it has to (a) match
really
well, like the Milwaukee City Hall in P10 or that tower in Cleveland in P4, and (b) withstand criticism.
On the question of how to interpret the shapes in P1 and P11: Because simple shapes are so ubiquitous, the only way they could possibly help is if they represent numbers rather than shapes. Numbers can indicate latitudes, longitudes, or addresses (for example) -- and those can be helpful in a hunt like this -- but pretty much everywhere you look you see actual, literal squares, triangles, and circles. Occam's razor.
shseverin11
Speaking of finding a concrete match, didn't the two images that have been solved contain map overlays? Finding a map overlay would really help in determing the location. Maybe we shoudl shift gears and stop looking for a matching castle and start looking for the "hidden" map in the image. I know it's easier said than done
scottrocks7
I am almost certain this is for the Canadian casque. I feel very confident that the building in the box is the Chateau Frontenac in Quebec City, Quebec. I do not have a new enough computer to put up pictures on this site but run this through Google Images and you will see several views of this hotel. Taken from the correct angle it could look exactly like the image in the box. Quebec City's latitude is 46 49 and its longitude is 71 11 I know this is not an exact match but see what you can do with this. I will also check out the citadells of Halifax Nova Scotia just to make sure they are not the location. I will also see what parks are in th QC area that may or may have at one time match a verse.
boogieman
What's missing in both locations is the castle. The windows on the pointed tower are staggered in image11. Neither is an exact match.
But I still like 42 & 71. And, The Boston Public Library for v3.
shecrab
This might help:
Here is a website that lists all the castles in the United States--or as many as the site's author could garner, at any rate. It's listed by state, for easy browsing, and many contain pictures. It's certainly not comprehensive by any means, but it could easily help if you're searching for a match for your box picture.
hxxp://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/
Happy hunting.
boogieman
Thanks shecrab. I've looked at that sight soooo many times in the past. Even mentioned this one at Park Plaza Boston. I never realized that it was two blocks from Copley Square and one block from the Boston Public Gardens.
shecrab
I liked that one too....it even has the staggered windows. The turrets and crenellated wall are the wrong way round, but I'll give that up to artistic license and say it's Boston.
boogieman
Well, if this is the box, then we've come full circle back to Boston. And I've found myself in a quagmire.
Trohn
Boogie-
Here is another thing for you to loose sleep over...
"Near those who pass the coliseum"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Stadium
(maybe pass is a play on words - football, law school)
shseverin11
It could be Boston. Keep in mind that the Chicago Tower was made to look like a windmill. We could have searched every windmill in the US and have never found it. I think the key is to find the small part of the castle that matches part of the pic. I like the Boston one because of the misaligned windows. Not sure how common that is in castle architecture.
scottrocks7
Do not have much time to write right now but check out Casa Loma in Toronto run it through google to get pictures. It looks alot like the image in the box includeing the wall. Another reason to consider Toronto I ran statues Thycididis or however it is spelled and Xenopon or however it is spelled I had the correct spelling at the time through Google and got vage references to Toronto I will let you know if I have something concrete. If you think you have really got something concrete on Boston I have a relative who lives out there that can help confirm it. I however at this time do not think Boston is a site.
boogieman
Casa Loma, Plaza castle, and "the box".
shecrab
I for one am not going with the Casa Loma idea...the Boston pic, though the turrets and wall are wrongly proportioned, are very much MORE like the box picture.
Here's a thought, however:
What if the box picture is only a metaphor? What if it's saying not "this is THE castle you're looking for" but "You're looking for a castle-like house or other structure," instead?
Another thing that nags at me are the swirls on the box--no one has yet given any explanation or ideas for those. I don't think they're only 'filler'.
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
Another thing that nags at me are the swirls on the box--no one has yet given any explanation or ideas for those. I don't think they're only 'filler'.
It has been mentioned a few times. The one I like the best is that it is Boston Ivy.
Has anyone noticed this when Image11 is turned upside down? Looks like a bat hanging in a dungeon. Bats in the belfry?
shecrab
Looks like a bat with a flatulence problem...LOLOLOLOL....
shseverin11
An observation....I like the Park Plaza map that Shecrab posted today under verse 3. The "A" shapes by the triangular park reminded me of the As in the woman's cuffs.
stercox
Unknown:
Another thing that nags at me are the swirls on the box--no one has yet given any explanation or ideas for those. I don't think they're only 'filler'.
I've thought that the swirls on the box as well as on her dress front to look like ornamental wrought iron--like you'd find on a gate...
shecrab
I posted another picture under Verse 3 too--that of Horace Walpole's home Strawberry Hill in London. You'll have to read back a couple of posts to know why, but it's another box semi-match.
The swirls may be wrought iron, but I've always seen letters in them too--like in the front pages of the book, there's that drawing of the fence--if you look at those swirls you can see the words "Looks" and "Tease."
forest_blight
Why are you considering a castle that is in the wrong hemisphere?
insatiable
What do you think about this as a possible match?
insatiable
Here's another.
insatiable
Some of the buildings in the area like the one I posted are northen italian architecture,k could that be the italy connection? I posted a few more things on tweleve.org about image 11 verse 3.
Trohn
I recognize the location of the photos.
Good luck putting the pieces together.
I never visited, but would have trouble thinking its on the
grounds proper, so it may be across the street at some
vanatge point to see the references.
Helpful hutning tip: Look for the Greek/Latin Alphabet
to fulfill: 'All the letters"
Gods' speed.
insatiable
This sits in front of the BPL and reminds of the blue orbsin image 11
insatiable
Thank you for the tip Trohn, I plan on visiting there Saturday, hopefully the snow will have melted by then.
shecrab
forest_blight wrote::
Why are you considering a castle that is in the wrong hemisphere?
FB: please read my posts under Image 3, or whereever they are!! I said that this castle belonged to Horace
Walpole
. WALPOLE is the author of the quote about Thucydides at Boston/Xenophon at New York---and that wasn't brought out in the original ideas that ORIGINALLY fixed the location at Boston!! That's the connection--not the actual location of the castle! The connection is WALPOLE. The fact that he
lived in a castle
(and that it SLIGHTLY resembled the one on the box!) is just a confirmation that it's the right
IDEA
. No more than that! I'm not considering it as a location. I see that there are these double plays on words throughout the entire book!
Just to vent:
You know, it sort of irritates me a bit that when I joined this forum, you all said "read the back posts!" so I did! Every last one of them. And you guys never do!
LOL...
shecrab
Trohn wrote::
I recognize the location of the photos.
Good luck putting the pieces together.
I never visited, but would have trouble thinking its on the
grounds proper, so it may be across the street at some
vanatge point to see the references.
Helpful hutning tip: Look for the Greek/Latin Alphabet
to fulfill: 'All the letters"
Gods' speed.
Not to belabor a point here, but is there a complete collection of
Horace Walpole's letters
in the Boston Public Library?
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
Not to belabor a point here, but is there a complete collection of
Horace Walpole's letters
in the Boston Public Library?
Very good idea shecrab
I'm going to look into it as well as some Revere family letters. I do know that down the street a bit at the Ma. Historical Society they have Revere letters but I'm not sure about Walpole.....but as for the BPL I'm not sure about the collections they may have.
shecrab
Yeah, maybe the library, but definitely not Walpole. The Walpole collection is at Yale University. They have everything there. I just went through the entire BPL website, and they have extensive collections, lots and lots of letters, but nothing that would point to our verse (IMHO.)
Here's a tidbit:
The
Boston News-Letter
was the first newspaper in the country--and is the first continuously published newspaper in the country. It was forst published by the Postmaster, John Campbell.
hxxp://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2005_winter_spring/john_campbell.htm
Maybe these are the "letters?"
insatiable
Wow, I never knew we had the first newspaper here. To bad it doesn't say where the office was.
wilhouse
don't forget the 71 41 built into the arch above the female's head.
wilhouse
insatiable
The "112" in the image.....I think this is a reversed 211......the tower at trinity church is 211 ft high.
forest_blight
Unknown:
Just to vent: You know, it sort of irritates me a bit that when I joined this forum, you all said "read the back posts!" so I did! Every last one of them. And you guys never do! LOL...
I understand how you made the Walpole connection, and it's cool that he lived in a castle. It's just that I see the connection as more tenuous than you do (I think). All the other identifiable places we've spotted in these paintings have been in the vicinity (at least in the same city) as the casque.
For this theory to be true, it strikes me that BP would have to have planned on one of two thought sequences occurring to the solver:
1. There's a castle in P11.
Hey, wait, Horace Walpole lived in a castle!
What was that Walpole quote I heard once...
Oh yeah: Thucydides, Xenophon, Boston...
Bingo! It's in Boston.
2. Thucydides, Xenophon...
Hey, didn't I hear a quote about that once?
Oh yeah, Horace Walpole wrote that, about Boston!
And Horace Walpole lived in a castle!
Bingo! It's in Boston.
I understand that the second sequence is a little more likely than the first, but it still seems pretty far-fetched to me. I'm not denying a possible link to Walpole, but the idea that the castle in P11 refers to Strawberry Hill seems pretty far-fetched to me. But what do I know, I haven't dug one of these bad boys up!
shecrab
Actually, I never would have found Walpole either, except that I was going through the back posts on the thread, and saw that the quote was TO Horace Mann, not ABOUT Horace Mann--and thought I ought to find out who said it inc case it was important. That's how the Walpole thing got started.
1.) saw quote, saw it was from a letter (thought hey--another connection)
2.) saw author
3.) researched author
4.) found Walpole Mass--saw it was NORTH of Boston (thought hey--another connection)
5.) found Walpole lived in castle (thought hey--another connection)
6.) Saw castle was similiar--but not nearly exact--to box castle (thought hey--another connection)
That's how it worked. Seems perfectly logical to me. I dont' think this is tenuous, I think it's just a series more items that confirm the location. That's all I ever said, in fact...just more confirmation through a lot of word play. Anyone who began researching Walpole, no matter how they did it, (i.e., before the internet, like Preiss would have) would find out about Strawberry Hill since he was famous for it. I think if I had said only that Strawberry HILL = Beacon HILL, therefore it's Boston, then THAT would have been tenuous.
Heck, the entire premise of this solution was made without the image at all until recently--now that's tenuous!
forest_blight
I see - thanks.
Not that it matters, but the letter was to Sir Thomas Mann, not Horace Mann (the latter woulid be quite a trick, since their lives overlapped for less than a year). Too bad, too - talk about namesakes!
shecrab
Er, no...it was to
Horace
Mann. The FATHER of Sir Horace Mann the Younger. He also corresponded with the son. This particular letter was to the father.
The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveller from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra.
Letter to Sir Horace Mann (1774-11-24)
There was also a Horace Mann who was an educator, into education reform, who died here in my home state of Ohio. But he wasn't even born until 1875 and he died in 1955.
forest_blight
Ah - my bad. Did these namesakes ever meet near a site in Boston?
shecrab
It's possible!
hxxp://www.famousamericans.net/horacemann/
Trohn
I have found the bird.... here is a photo of it in the wild...
It is an Australian variety, and why would you think this is
significant??
(There is a Boston street/Port named after it)
Interesting - but probably irrelevant.....
insatiable
Black Falcon Terminal I think is what you're talking about.....other side of the city. I didn't know that bird was a falcon, I assumed it was a hawk....I wish it were an eagle.
Trohn
insatiable wrote::
Black Falcon Terminal I think is what you're talking about.....other side of the city. I didn't know that bird was a falcon, I assumed it was a hawk....I wish it were an eagle.
No, the eagle is in Image 12 (presumed to be Brooklyn - John Paul Jones Park).
shecrab
hxxp://www.google.com/maps?q=boston+map≷=US&daddr=Boston,+MA&saddr=1+black+falcon+ave&rl=1&ie=UTF8≪=42.343447,-71.035581&spn=0.014496,0.028324&z=15&om=1
This is a link to Black Falcon Ave., which shows that it is in South Boston near where "all the letters can be seen."
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
hxxp://www.google.com/maps?q=boston+map≷=US&daddr=Boston,+MA&saddr=1+black+falcon+ave&rl=1&ie=UTF8≪=42.343447,-71.035581&spn=0.014496,0.028324&z=15&om=1
This is a link to Black Falcon Ave., which shows that it is in South Boston near where "all the letters can be seen."
I know exactly where that is, we sometimes go to the end of the dock to watch planes coming and going from the airport across the water. I can't give up on Copley so easily but if you find more connections to Southie with the verse and the image I'll be on board...... and will happily go dig where ever you want me to.
insatiable
Not a perfect match but very close.
shecrab
I thought that same thing about the claw!! Good eye!!
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
I thought that same thing about the claw!! Good eye!!
A few days ago I tried this with the claw but was matching it up with cape cod, not a match. When you talked about South Boston today it got me looking at that area.....where the claw is is Castle Island (the one I mentioned earlier). I never would have noticed it with out your posts.
shecrab
I really think we're in the right area--and it's not Copley, like we thought. I think the thing we need to find now is the Green Tower of lights--in or around the Harbor. "Near those who pass the coliseum"--"Those" needs to be pinned down. Whatever "those" is.
This is really exciting!
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
I really think we're in the right area--and it's not Copley, like we thought. I think the thing we need to find now is the Green Tower of lights--in or around the Harbor. "Near those who pass the coliseum"--"Those" needs to be pinned down. Whatever "those" is.
This is really exciting!
I have been trying to find anything over there to go with "green tower of lights" all day but can't find anything, I can't find anything to match image 11 in southie either, except for the bird claw. The bird claw could be just pointing to boston in genral. I just don't know. I am still leaning more towards Copley. I hate when something starts out so simple and then gets so complicated, it should work the other way around!
shecrab
I thought of two possibilities for the green tower of lights: the Boston Light (which is white) or the control tower at Logan Airport, both of which can be seen from the Harbor. There's also a "Green Island" in the Harbor, but no tall structures on it that I could find.
I can't find any pictures that show the tower at Logan to be "green" at night when it would be lit up--nor can I find any information about the colors of lights on top of a control tower--whether they're green, or red or white. (Usually tall buildings/structures have red lights on top.)
Melissa...any chance of you and the boyfriend hiking down to the harbor to take night pics? Or to scope it out?
boogieman
With all the matches in the image to the surrounding area of Copley Square, the only thing that can take us away from there is possibly the five steps. I think we should look at all the steps around the park and buildings. But why is Thucy south of Xeno and we have the Old South Church clearly in the image? Hey, wait a minute...Anybody see this? Take five steps in the area of his direction? He's south, head for the Old South Church which is North?
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
I thought of two possibilities for the green tower of lights: the Boston Light (which is white) or the control tower at Logan Airport, both of which can be seen from the Harbor. There's also a "Green Island" in the Harbor, but no tall structures on it that I could find.
I can't find any pictures that show the tower at Logan to be "green" at night when it would be lit up--nor can I find any information about the colors of lights on top of a control tower--whether they're green, or red or white. (Usually tall buildings/structures have red lights on top.)
Melissa...any chance of you and the boyfriend hiking down to the harbor to take night pics? Or to scope it out?
lol I was just looking at Boston Light to see if it was green. I believe the control tower light at the airport is blue, but I have a bad memory so I could be wrong. I will try to get pics at night of Southie this week sometime.
boogieman
Here's an old pic from 82'. Not much to tell but the
water
sure is different.
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
Here's an old pic from 82'. Not much to tell but the
water
sure is different.
Is there even any water thing there??? Please say yes lol
boogieman
Was the tower of the church green back then?
hxxp://www.brynmawr.edu/Acads/Cities/wl ... 06460a.jpg
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
Was the tower of the church green back then?
hxxp://www.brynmawr.edu/Acads/Cities/wl ... 06460a.jpg
The cupola has always been green. I'm not sure if the light in the tower is always green, I could only find one photo of it at night and in that one it is green. This is the view of it if you were standing on the corner at the library with xeno & thucy behind you at the other end of the building.
lizardlips
boogieman wrote::
With all the matches in the image to the surrounding area of Copley Square, the only thing that can take us away from there is possibly the five steps. I think we should look at all the steps around the park and buildings. But why is Thucy south of Xeno and we have the Old South Church clearly in the image? Hey, wait a minute...Anybody see this? Take five steps in the area of his direction? He's south, head for the Old South Church which is North?
Maybe this is too much free association? Revere hung the lanterns from the steeple of Old North Church. But if Thucy is really south of Xeno, then north and south are backwards, and we have Old South Church with its green "lantern."
scottrocks7
I have a relative that lives in the Boston area. I will be sending him this image and the verse we think matches it in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see what he thinks.
I do not want to bust everyones bubble but I do not think this is Boston. The reason being is that we know either presicely or approximately the location of all but this and Image 9 that we think goes to either with St. Louis or Montreal. We know that one casque is in Canada. We also think a casque is in St. Louis.
This means that if this thinking is true then this is most likely the Canadian casque. I think the box image is Casa Loma in Toronto. Alot of areas in the Toronto area seem to match this verse.
bigmattyh
lizardlips wrote::
Maybe this is too much free association? Revere hung the lanterns from the steeple of Old North Church. But if Thucy is really south of Xeno, then north and south are backwards, and we have Old South Church with its green "lantern."
Ooooh, I like that line of thinking... It reminds me of that line from Star Trek II, where Spock says "If we go by the book, hours would seem like days", and then speaks in code about how much time they need. It's like a key that helps you unlock the meaning of what comes next. If T is north of X... but it isn't -- it's south -- so exchange south for north.
insatiable
scottrocks7 wrote::
I have a relative that lives in the Boston area. I will be sending him this image and the verse we think matches it in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see what he thinks.
I do not want to bust everyones bubble but I do not think this is Boston. The reason being is that we know either presicely or approximately the location of all but this and Image 9 that we think goes to either with St. Louis or Montreal. We know that one casque is in Canada. We also think a casque is in St. Louis.
This means that if this thinking is true then this is most likely the Canadian casque. I think the box image is Casa Loma in Toronto. Alot of areas in the Toronto area seem to match this verse.
Hi Scott, I think the dog and horse lamp post in Montreal is a dead on match for image 9, I didn't know there were doubts about that.....but I'm new so I have alot to catch up on. Is there anything in image 11 verse 3 besides Casa Loma that match up to Toronto? Why do you think a casque is in St. Louis? Is there something in the book other than images and verse that gives clues about locations?
2fast4u2c
insatiable wrote::
Why do you think a casque is in St. Louis? Is there something in the book other than images and verse that gives clues about locations?
The author has went on record as saying there was a casque in St. Louis.
insatiable
2fast4u2c wrote::
The author has went on record as saying there was a casque in St. Louis.
oh I didn't know that. TY 2fast
Could one of the other locations possibly be wrong? I haven't read all of the threads for the other images and verses, I only looked at what is on the secret wiki and based on that some of the other matches are weak ones....maybe there are more connections listed somewhere else that I'm not seeing.
shecrab
Hee hee...MANY of the locations can be wrong!!
The Wiki is only a suggestion--and based on the same inconclusive information we all have.
BP has stated in writing that there
is
a casque in St. Louis and a casque in Canada--but he does not say where. I do not believe that Image 11 has anything to do with Canada--we've found too many confirmers for Boston.
lizardlips
I've been looking for a Copley or Beacon Hill match for the S in the apron panel. Put that on hold, and started thinking about "feel at home." Had a little light bulb about the feel at home, and went virtually checking it out. Found a possible S match there.
What do you think?
lizardlips
This is how I have seen the falcon's claw, even back when considering SLC.
boogieman
Where is the match to the S?
lizardlips
On the historic old brass doorknobs (those that remain) at the Copley Square Hotel. Those at the Copley Plaza had (have) back-to-back Ps.
I started looking at the hotels, as that is where one is asked to "feel at home."
boogieman
Nice find! Geez though... I beginning to think it may be lost forever. If it was at the Square, it's gone. That park has completely changed. But maybe shecrab's right. Too public a place?
lizardlips
[quote="boogieman"]
If it was at the Square, it's gone. That park has completely changed.
[quote]
Don't I know it! The only time I was ever there was DURING the reconstruction.
insatiable
Lizard - A hotel is a great idea for "feel at home" it didn't even cross my mind, I kept thinking home plates or places to sit lol I like the color of your "S" better but I still think the alter looks more like the design as a whole. Inside of Trinity painted around some murals is the same vine design as the alter too.
You can see the leafs (green) of the vine are in the same position, the "S" continues into the "C" shape (blue), and there is a rectangle around the whole thing. This is a horrible photo of the alter, I'll try to get a higher res. version on Saturday.
Her scarf hanging from her dress reminds me of the scarfs (sorry don't know what they are really called) priests or the pope wears.
shecrab
I believe those 'scarves' are called chasubles. They usually cover more than just the front, however, but they do often have a straight "scarf-lke" piece going down the front, which is highly decorated--by embroidery or whatever.
The entire pose of the girl in the painting suggests a priest at an altar.
I like the match with the altar you posted--I think it's almost exact. I also like the idea of a hotel--and there might be a lot of extrapolations on that theme we could check: hostels, halfway houses, B&Bs, even maybe abbeys or monasteries.
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
I believe those 'scarves' are called chasubles. They usually cover more than just the front, however, but they do often have a straight "scarf-lke" piece going down the front, which is highly decorated--by embroidery or whatever.
The entire pose of the girl in the painting suggests a priest at an altar.
I like the match with the altar you posted--I think it's almost exact. I also like the idea of a hotel--and there might be a lot of extrapolations on that theme we could check: hostels, halfway houses, B&Bs, even maybe abbeys or monasteries.
Ahh a chasuble! TY shecrab.....I have been trying to figure out what it was called so I could find a good photo of it to show what I am talking about
hxxp://www.veritaspolska.com/?page=chur ... s&dzial=22
shseverin11
I've only been to Boston once, so I can't speak to how feasible this is....but assuming that you start in Copley Square but that Copley Square is too public of a place to bury the casque.....You have to find a "green" area near the Square. Looking at the map, the closest would be the Public Gardens or Boston Commons to the east. Assuming that the verse intends for you to walk 5 blocks (roads) east, you would end up at the bottom of the Boston Commons area.
THere are numbers in the arch in image 11, which I'm assuming have a meaning. Could this be an address? You could interpret the first marks on the left of the arch as 171 or 111. Both addresses are on Boylston St. across from the Boston Commons. The second part could be 41 or 91. Not sure where that would take you. If you get a chance to walk that way, please keep your eye out for possible matching addresses.
shecrab
One of the problems with walking 'blocks' is that some of the blocks in the area are split by alleyways. Each actual street has double rows of buidlings with alleys between them. Do you count these? if not, then five "blocks" north takes you to Back Street, five blocks east takes you to where you said..the bottom of the commons--five blocks west takes you to the convention center,and five blocks south isn't possible without running into the turnpike. Why would you go east, though?
shseverin11
shecrab wrote::
Why would you go east, though?
I don't have a valid reason for going east as it pertains to the verse. I was looking east since it seemed like it was the closest park-like area to Copley Square and it happened to be 5 streets away from the square (depending on how you count). As you pointed out, it's hard to determine whether a step should be a block, street or something else.
insatiable
shseverin11 wrote::
I don't have a valid reason for going east as it pertains to the verse. I was looking east since it seemed like it was the closest park-like area to Copley Square and it happened to be 5 streets away from the square (depending on how you count). As you pointed out, it's hard to determine whether a step should be a block, street or something else.
When I first looked at this I was thinking 5 blocks west to massachusetts ave. and victory garden. On the corner there is the mass. historical society where the revere letters (all the letters) are kept and it is closer to fenway park (coliseum, metal walls) In victory park it would be easy to bury something since it's a public garden for planting things.....there is also water in that park. When I found all the image matches at trinity church and the green light tower at old south church I changed my mind about going that far away from it.
boogieman
insatiable wrote::
Inside of Trinity painted around some murals is the same vine design as the alter too.
You can almost make out a big S and a big C on the right. Notice that behind the letters and the vines that there are squares? The vines over a square, C & S, Copley Square? Why am I still trying to convince????
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
You can almost make out a big S and a big C on the right. Notice that behind the letters and the vines that there are squares? The vines over a square, C & S, Copley Square? Why am I still trying to convince????
Oh Duh! The C&S as Copley Square never even occured to me. Well I for one don't need convincing....to many things in common here...my mind is set on Copley.
insatiable
More confirmation that this image is Boston?
insatiable
Just to make things more confusing
insatiable
Eagle, Hawk or Falcon under the podium?
shseverin11
insatiable wrote::
Just to make things more confusing
I always saw that as Virginia, too. My husband wasn't as convinced. The outline does appear to be an intentional shape, but if not of a VA, then what?
shseverin11
Although I find it hard to believe that the casque is in the BPL (and really hope it's not since it has been renovated), there is one thing that stood out to me when I saw the pics of the courtyard. The second and third story windows appear to be the same shape as the squares on her collar. In particular, some of the windows looked narrower than the others (this may have been due to the angle of the photo). The collar in I11 also contains a narrower square. A possible connection? Maybe you can check this out Insatiable (since you don't have enough to look at
.
lizardlips
Can someone remind me of why we settled in on "black falcon," except for the obvious port/street Boston connection. Because the markings would tend to lead me to another type of falcon.
Thanks,
lizzy
Trohn
lizardlips wrote::
Can someone remind me of why we settled in on "black falcon," except for the obvious port/street Boston connection. Because the markings would tend to lead me to another type of falcon.
Thanks,
lizzy
The street was the motivator... it is a falcon... what type do you have?
lizardlips
Any of the types with markings, expecially those that may extend over the eye, for example pergrine, but possibly others as well. But the black falcon seems to have a notable lack of markings. Unless those are another clue, lol.
forest_blight
Why do you think it is a falcon and not a hawk? Or are they basically the same thing?
Trohn
forest_blight wrote::
Why do you think it is a falcon and not a hawk? Or are they basically the same thing?
A falcon is generally larger.
2fast4u2c
could this be our fairy? not an exact match, but close
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/informatio ... 311188468/
insatiable
lizardlips wrote::
Can someone remind me of why we settled in on "black falcon," except for the obvious port/street Boston connection. Because the markings would tend to lead me to another type of falcon.
Thanks,
lizzy
I don't think the falcon is for black falcon terminal or street, I think it is for something we have not found yet or has some other meaning besides the obvious.
Trohn
2fast4u2c wrote::
could this be our fairy? not an exact match, but close
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/informatio ... 311188468/
Melissa will have to review the muses with the image when she visits.
boogieman
Just another thing for Insatiable to do. 8) The window has some characteristics in it other than just #'s. I suspect that if you see it, the casque is there. (or used to be)
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
Just another thing for Insatiable to do. 8) The window has some characteristics in it other than just #'s. I suspect that if you see it, the casque is there. (or used to be)
Hey boogie
To bad this is the new fountain, I think.
boogieman
When that pic was found, we were like "Eureka we found it". It turned out to be a water stain. But water takes the path of least resistance and I figured that as many times they removed it, the stain always came back. It's probably there now. Just not back in 82'. Anyway, the fountain is arched and the window is round. I can't figure what the markings are on either sides of the window, on the lower halves. I saw a huge manhole cover the other day that looked similar and those lines in the image were actually latches to open it. Maybe with all the underground water systems in Boston, there might be some huge cover there somewhere. I'm talking three times the size of normal ones.
I hope you have some help tomorrow. I can see you walking into poles, tripping over curbs. Just don't get hit by a car.
forest_blight
In this new flurry of creative theorizing, let's not forget what may be the biggest clue of all in P11: the girl herself. It's pretty obvious that she is supposed to represent Pandora, but why? Is it just an artistic throw-away? A red-haired red herring? The P's do contain elements that have little or nothing to do with the solution, but let's assume that Pandora is somehow important to the solution here. What is it about Pandora that could lead us to the casque?
All about Pandora:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora
Some pictures that ring a bell:
I would love to know JJP's title for this P.
boogieman
Well done FB. Maybe we should ask him.
Looking for Pandora, i found this;
hxxp://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1530584
In 1869, they built the temporary coliseum made of wood, not metal, at Copley Square for the National Peace Jubilee.
I also found this about Pandora's Box.
hxxp://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 8389669FDE
I had access to the full article the first time I went to the site, but the second time i went to it to post it here, I found you need to join the site to read it. It went on to say that the National Jubilee and the Coliseum opened the door for alcohol and beer to be purchased on the Sabbath, "Opening Pandora's Box".
Could such a newspaper article from the 1870's be relevant to this hunt?
edit; here it is:
hxxp://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... ref=slogin
Trohn
Thinking back to 1981, and an earlier discussion of this image,
it was thought that the bird on the T could simply be the
Boston references (Larry Bird, T - subway). With the claw
matching the coastline - I am more than willing to accept this
interpretation.
Nice job on Pandora - I wonder who originally wrote her story?
forest_blight
Unknown:
Nice job on Pandora - I wonder who originally wrote her story?
Maybe it was Thucydides or Xenophon...
bigmattyh
Where is this fountain exactly?
boogieman
forest_blight wrote::
The P's do contain elements that have little or nothing to do with the solution, but let's assume that Pandora is somehow important to the solution here. What is it about Pandora that could lead us to the casque?
Well, she was created by the Greeks and we already have the Greek Theme caque uncovered. The article about the coliseum and Pandora's Box is mostly about the Germans and the French. She has nothing to do with the Italian theme, right? If this image is in Boston, what else can Pandora be doing there
Can we only Hope?
BTW, what fountain are you talking about BigMatt? The one in the courtyard of the BPL, or the one in the park at Copley Square?
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
Well, she was created by the Greeks and we already have the Greek Theme caque uncovered. The article about the coliseum and Pandora's Box is mostly about the Germans and the French. She has nothing to do with the Italian theme, right? If this image is in Boston, what else can Pandora be doing there
Can we only Hope?
I was thinking she stood for hope so searched for anything hope related around here....I didn't find to much in my quick search. We have The Hope House...It's a mens home, maybe for the homeless?
2fast4u2c
I just can't seem to shake the idea that the castle on the box is too obvious and that if there is a building confirmer, it is hidden in the image better. I have been looking this image over with a fine tooth comb, playing with outlines and shading and such to see if i can find anything. I think I may have found something...take a look at this:
Does anyone else see in the shading an eagle or some other bird perched atop a building or statue? I didn't notice it until I inverted the colors in Paint. There appears to me to be enough of an image that it can be used as a visual confirmer. Can we match this up with something in Boston or Salt Lake City?
boogieman
I cant see it but probably is something there....
insatiable
Well I looked all around and found nothing. The library was closed so I couldn't go inside, the churches had masses going on so I couldn't investigate inside of them very well either. You'd think it would have ocurred to me me on a sunday wasn't the greatest idea. After Copley I walked through Commonwealth park down to the public garden and then through boston common. From there we went up berkely street down to kings chapel and then to granary burying ground and then back through everything a second time. I saw birds, orbs and arches everywhere but none seemed to be ours. I looked at the Edward Evrette Hale statue "man of letters" but nothing was around him to go with any other clues. I went to the start of the freedom trail and to see paul reveres grave, nothing there either. Orbs were everywhere on top of cement posts all around Copley and all around the public garden and boston common.....some of the orbs had birds on them. Trinity Church had these same birds on it too. I checked around the other sides of the library to see if T & X were on the other sides as well but they were not. On the sidewalk in front of T & X was a cement thing with a bird on it. From the sidewalk to the wall of the BPL where T & X are there are 5 steps. There are also 5 steps at Trinity church. It was a good day anyway....I haven't went sight seeing around Boston in a long time. The highlight was on the way back through Boston Common we bought roasted nuts from a street vendor so my BF could feed them to the squirrels...they are everywhere and very friendly....my BF picked the only one with people problems to feed and got his hand mauled lol
bclews
2fast4u2c wrote::
...Does anyone else see in the shading an eagle or some other bird perched atop a building or statue?
I've also been studying the bird. It seems strange to me that the bird's wing has no feather details. JJP is a talented painter and I would think he was capable of painting feathers, but he painted it to look smooth. Kind of looks like a whale.
Any significance? New England Aquarium? There are bubbles and a viewing window in the image. Hmmm...
Just a thought.
insatiable
this is a pic of the bird in front of the BPL panels
insatiable
and another one of those birds above and right of the panels
insatiable
another one on trinity church
Even though it doesn't look like our bird, I'm wondering why there are so many in the area
insatiable
And another one on the sidewalk on the other side of the library
insatiable
The more I look at it the more the bird reminds me of the Maltese Falcon
hxxp://www.answers.com/topic/falconanalysis-jpg
Trohn
FWIW (nothing new)
Wildlife species that are doing well are adapting to their changing setting. Coyote, White-tailed Deer, Raccoon, and Wild Turkey are now found in suburbs of major cities and are increasing in population. Black Bear continue to thrive in many of the state forests of western Massachusetts, and moose have repopulated a portion of north-central Mass. Peregrine Falcon can now be found nesting on artificial platforms on many of the state's tallest buildings in larges cities such as Boston, Worcester and Springfield.
slappybuns
Trohn wrote::
Boogie-
Here is another thing for you to loose sleep over...
"Near those who pass the coliseum"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Stadium
(maybe pass is a play on words - football, law school)
I don't have my book yet, just looking into this hunt, trying to read everything first, but since i hadn't seen this mentioned until now,, but on the right of the castle turret looks like a football helmet to me
2fast4u2c
boogieman wrote::
I cant see it but probably is something there....
Maybe this will help illustrate better what I think I see inside the bird. It appears much clearer when the colors are inverted.
hxxp://image60.webshots.com/660/9/26/7/ ... nCS_fs.jpg
I haven't found a match yet for it, but did run across this lawn sculpture and thought it would be a good illustration for what I think we are looking for.
boogieman
Thanks for making the trip around Boston guys.
Did anyone consider that the BOS on the left sleeve may be the airport code? BOS
Another thing to consider, the right sleeve. What if it says Dr? Doctor or Drive?
forest_blight
Maybe 70 or 71 backwards?
boogieman
I think we can get a 70 or 71 out of this...a couple of times.
bigmattyh
FWIW:
Has anyone else noticed that the "window" isn't actually a circle? It's a
keyhole
. The woman is standing in front of the long skinny part of it, but you can see enough of it behind her, under her arms, to make it out.
Of course who knows how this translates to the dig site...
forest_blight
Eh? I don't see that at all. What makes you think it isn't a circle?
bigmattyh
Look at the background behind where she's standing. The light blue area behind the window extends downwards vertically, behind her body.
shecrab
The light blue area does, but the border around the window does not. I don't think this is a keyhole. If it was a normal keyhole, the bottom would flare out a bit toward the bottom of the page, not just go straight down.
It doesn't make much sense to have a border around the top round part of the window and not around the bottom.
boogieman
bigmattyh wrote::
Look at the background behind where she's standing. The light blue area behind the window extends downwards vertically, behind her body.
I can kinda imagine a keyhole, but the floor molding behind the globe looks like it is suppose to be there making it just that; a window, wall, and a floor. BTW, what are the other two balls? Planets? They are not globes. Otherwise they would also be resting in a whatchamcallit, a globe holder. I'm curious as to what the one on our right rests upon. Maybe we should be looking at these astrologically.
Jambone
The one on the right almost looks like the top of a chess pawn.
FWIW, I saw this while looking through pictures of Boston Common...
boogieman
forest_blight wrote::
Maybe 70 or 71 backwards?
Upon further review, it makes a perfect 70 when flipped horizontally. Which, if correct, puts out where? Provincetown, Cape Cod?
boogieman
Jambone wrote::
The one on the right almost looks like the top of a chess pawn.
FWIW, I saw this while looking through pictures of Boston Common...
Nice... Sure looks like it has been around a while. We could use something more from Boston Common though. Everything still points to Copley, except for the 70 I just posted.
boogieman
insatiable wrote::
This matches up real nice. Look at the base and look at the base in image11. Stuck in Copley.....still!
edit: my bad, insatiable, I didn't pick up on this til' now. If our "window" is somehow in the courtyard, I'm driving up with a shovel.
BP nor anyone associated with the book owns the property of the BPL, do they?
lizardlips
insatiable wrote::
e way back through Boston Common we bought roasted nuts from a street vendor so my BF could feed them to the squirrels...they are everywhere and very friendly....my BF picked the only one with people problems to feed and got his hand mauled lol
Keep an eye on BF's hand. Squirrels carry some nasty diseases, including rabies.
insatiable
boogieman wrote::
edit: my bad, insatiable, I didn't pick up on this til' now. If our "window" is somehow in the courtyard, I'm driving up with a shovel.
BP nor anyone associated with the book owns the property of the BPL, do they?
lol nope, I don't believe they do. I'm not sure if you have seen them or not but Lizardlips posted photos of the renovation in the BPL courtyard....if it was there I doubt it will ever be found now.
The more I look at the image & verse with Copley the more I am thnking we are missing something or have the wrong spot. I wish something would be a definite match with no other possibilites.
insatiable
lizardlips wrote::
Keep an eye on BF's hand. Squirrels carry some nasty diseases, including rabies.
LOL Lizard he is a freak about that stuff and went to the doctor the next day.
shecrab
Unknown:
The more I look at the image & verse with Copley the more I am thnking we are missing something or have the wrong spot. I wish something would be a definite match with no other possibilites.
Is there any way we could explore Little Italy? If for no other reason than to shut me up?
Maybe there's a park with a fountain there that will be next to a restaurant or other business with a "Roman" theme for the Coliseum and the Stairs (as in Spanish Stair).
Also, Harvard stadium is a dead ringer for the Coliseum in Rome. What "passes" the coliseum in Harvard?
I don't think the casque is at Harvard--nothing else there seems to match. Also...what is in Jamaica Plain? I know there's a Soldier's monument there that has "roof" parts like our box castle, but it's really a stretch to think it matches. It doesn't much. Other than that, is there anything else there that's noteworthy?
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
Is there any way we could explore Little Italy? If for no other reason than to shut me up? :-/
LOL I'll start looking around the net for things that would match in the North End, I'm not sure when I will be able to go there to search, we are having a snow storm tonight and another this weekend.
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
Is there any way we could explore Little Italy? If for no other reason than to shut me up? :-/
;
Of course no one wants to shut you up.
You have some interesting thoughts and we need that. BTW, i have poured over little Italy and the North End to no avail. Maybe I'm stuck on Copley a little.
Here's a thought; Christopher Columbus, an Italian fella. Columbus knew the Earth was round and so did everyone else, contrary to the belief that he proved the Earth wasn't flat. They used the
moon, stars, and spheres
to navigate the seas. There is a Christopher Columbus Park by the aquarium at the wharf. Only it was called Waterfront Park in 81'. His stautue was erected in 79' though..
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/historyofboston/497268238/
Intersting read.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe ... tion_plans
The statue has a sphere.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/antydiluvian/143377433/
Stairs. And it's on the water.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/ice_weasel/1694923522/
I was trying to see if Image11 was trying to tell a story. But I can't match up this story with verse3. No Thucydides or Xenophon. No Pandora, (i don't think). No green tower.
See, still stuck on Copley
Trohn
insatiable wrote::
LOL I'll start looking around the net for things that would match in the North End, I'm not sure when I will be able to go there to search, we are having a snow storm tonight and another this weekend.
I can not get over "in the middle section" describes the BPL courtyard EXACTLY.
I have looked around Boston for a similar set up (with a Italian/Rome theme) and have
come up empty.
Also, the Latin quote you pass entering the Library "Light to all citizens" (I think thats what the translation was)
describes the image of Pandora's box.
Loose ends, sure, but too many tie ins - to dismiss (even after thirty years)
boogieman
I do like the Harvard Stadium as a coliseum. Very roman like. Someone has mentioned that the image looks like and has the feel of education. I have seen greek names on certain pics of Harvard U. None of them from our verse3, but where there are some greeks, there may be more. If Thucy and Xeno are somewhere other than the BPL in Boston, good bet they're at a college. Harvard U. is
north
across the river from the stadium. hmmmm
bigmattyh
boogieman wrote::
I do like the Harvard Stadium as a coliseum. Very roman like. Someone has mentioned that the image looks like and has the feel of education. I have seen greek names on certain pics of Harvard U. None of them from our verse3, but where there are some greeks, there may be more. If Thucy and Xeno are somewhere other than the BPL in Boston, good bet they're at a college. Harvard U. is
north
across the river from the stadium. hmmmm
I also wondered about this... If you look up Harvard Stadium, it's a dead-ringer for the Roman Coliseum. In fact, it's probably more of a fit for the Roman Coliseum more than any other building in the US.
One thing I like about Harvard -- on a total non -image or -verse related reason -- is that Priess wrote for National Lampoon, which has its roots there. I don't take that connection too seriously, but I just imagine that it'd be fun to connect the book back there.
shecrab
Unknown:
Of course no one wants to shut you up.
Then I'm just not doing my job!! LOLOLOLOL......
I like this Coliseum thing--it DID occur to me that Preiss got his start writing for the Harvard Lampoon...and that is why I started researching him. Their coliseum absolutely does look like the one in Rome, but newer.
I thought about Christopher columbus park, too...but didn't have much success raising pics of it. Thanks for posting those links!!
Does anything "pass" that Harvard coliseum on a regular basis? A bus, a trolley, a group of people? Would there be ships on the Charles River visible from there? (Modern ships usually have metal walls). When they take Ol' Ironsides out for a spin every year, do they pass Harvard's stadium to get to the ocean? (I'm not exactly sure where it is--I mean the stadium, not the ocean. I haven't misplaced that yet.)
I know there's an observatory in Boston--at BU, and another one at Cambridge on Soldier's Field Parkway. Has anyone got better pics of the Prudential skywalk?
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
Their coliseum absolutely does look like the one in Rome, but newer. (I'm not exactly sure where it is--I mean the stadium, not the ocean. I haven't misplaced that yet.)
You haven't tried
hxxp://www.local.live.com/
yet? Zoom in on Boston. Just go west of The Back Bay Fens area and you'll see the stadium. (Follow the river west) Make sure you are set for the ariel viewing and the hybrid as well. Those options are at the top of the page. You can see the land below and the hybrid will names the roads and important places.
shecrab
Thanks, Boogieman! That helped me zero in on it. Nice little mapping program---slower than Google Earth, but easier to see what's what.
scottrocks7
I found some more things that make me think this is Toronto. First Toronto's Lattitude and Longitude is:
Lat: 43,40 Long: 79, 24
Lets assume that the 42 on the bracelet should be interpited as 24. According to the wikkie you think you have found 43 and 72 hidden in the image. Were do you think 72 is hidden. If it is under number 112 then likely it could be read as 77.
Under any condition we could have Lat: 43 and Long: 72 or 77, 24. The computer said Lat 43 Long 72 was in New Hampshier.Though Long 77, 24 would put us close to Toronto.
The main clue on this picture though is the image in the box. I know we have had this conversation before but I think this building is Casa Loma.
Here is what to do: go to Wikipedia then in the search bar type Casa Loma then click search. You will then see a picture of Casa Loma that looks very similer to the box image. One important thing to notice is the wall in front of both Casa Loma and the box image are teethed.
Also look at the flowers above the globe look toward the right and see what looks like the maple leaf on the Canadian flag. Also the fact that the flowers are at the top of the globe could be telling us to look north.
If we can eliminate Montrial and Quebec City as the site of the Canadian casque it would almost definately mean that Verse 2 goes with New Orleans. Given the spacificness of the verse finding the NO Casque should not be that hard even now post Katrina. I will talk more about this in the apprpriate thread.
bigmattyh
scottrocks7 wrote::
I found some more things that make me think this is Toronto. First Toronto's Lattitude and Longitude is:
Lat: 43,40 Long: 79, 24
I'm definitely open to the idea that this picture might not be Boston... I would add, though, that the pattern for latitude and longitude has been limited to expressing the numbers only in degrees -- instead of in degrees, minutes. The 42 is probably a latitude, also in part because there's a 41 in the stone window, which would mean 41 and 42 are the likely southern and northern bounds for the casque location.
boogieman
I think maybe we should look at portals and tunnels. The window in this image looks similar to the tubes my trains run through under the Hudson River.
hxxp://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?47404
Any tunnels in Boston like this? Would have to be an entrance I imagine...
shecrab
Such as these?
hxxp://www.abandonedsubwaytunnels.com/subwaysite/parkst/parkst_thumbs.html
boogieman
More like this. Not a tunnel, but something like what I am looking for.
hxxp://www.abandonedsubwaytunnels.com/o ... /cm13.html
shecrab
yes, I saw that one. Since it was a waste-water outlet I didn't consider it.
If you go through some of the pics on that site, you'll find a couple of windows that look similar, but I don't think this is the way to go, really.
Sometimes a window is just a window. Round or otherwise.
scottrocks7
I do not know if this has been discussed here yet, but their is a good chance that this window could be a pond in the park or near the casque's location. The fact that several differant blocks make up the window this could be the blocks around the actual pond.
This clue should this image turn out to be Toronto a similer pond is in High Park. I have looked at websites of High Park and not seen anything that matched or could have matched Verse 3.
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
yes, I saw that one. Since it was a waste-water outlet I didn't consider it.
If you go through some of the pics on that site, you'll find a couple of windows that look similar, but I don't think this is the way to go, really.
Sometimes a window is just a window. Round or otherwise.
Yeah, I know. Just something about it that makes it not a window. I don't think a keyhole either.
bclews
boogieman wrote::
...Just something about it that makes it not a window....
Well, for one thing, no planet would be lit from above like the orb in the window. So, do we turn the picture to make it more realistic? Is it NOT a planet? What else would it be?
scottrocks7
I showed the box image and Casa Loma to mom and she did not think it was a match because Casa Loma did not have pointy tops on the spiers. This may be significant or it may not be. The strongest indicater that this may be Casa Loma is that the wall looks similer to the wall on the box image and the fact that the thumb is on the wall in the image could be telling us to look at the wall. It could be Casa Loma with the pointy tops as decoies.
I hope to get this image and verse along with all the arguments for and aginst Boston to a distant relative of mine who has lived in Boston since before most of us were even born in the next few days. Hopefully they can shead some light on wether this is Boston or not.
Most likely the box image is the city identifyer and the Window is either a pond or circular item in the park.
Here is a streach. Could the three flowers be a crude three sided interpatation of the Canadian Broadcasting Company's logo? Either way if you look on the right side of the flowers you can see what looks like the maple leaf on the Canadian flag. This could be a double confirmer for Toronto as Toronto's hockey team is called the Maple Leafs.
shecrab
Scottrocks, don't take offense at this, please--but you seem to be determined on claiming Canada for this image. Have you gone through the thread on this image carefully? Have you seen the matches--not speculative ones, but exact ones--for the designs on the woman's dress, the scroll-work and vines, the latitude and longitude numbers? They don't point to Canada. They point to Boston. The fact that we have not found a casque in Boston yet does not mean we haven't matched most of the elements to that city.
As for your Castle Loma, the fact that it has a crenellated wall does not mean much--there are crenellations in a lot of architecture, all over the place. To date no one has found an exact match for that box castle--only parts of it--but the best ones have been in Boston. One crenellated wall is not enough of a marker to claim a certain location for it. I don't believe the artist has put "decoys" in the images.
I would urge you to read through the posts in this thread and look at the images we've posted. A lot of people have researched this image and have come up with the same place--and that place has been Boston. I don't mean to discourage your efforts, but why put all this energy into a place you only have one or perhaps two "maybe" matches for? So far, Boston has been the best match for most of what is in the image and in the verse as well. It's best not to try to make the image fit your preconceived notions--and that's not always easy. (I once thought this image pointed right at Pocatello Idaho, but I no longer believe that it does.)
Also, though you are correct about the Maple Leafs being Toronto's hockey team, the maple leaf itself is far more pervasive in Canada than just the hockey team's name--it's on the national flag.
syntheticdreams
hello everyone. im new. as you can probably tell and have just gotten into this tresure hunt business.
needless to say im excited that theres a chance that theres a treasure in boston since thats where i live.
anyway. i was looking over the image and (assuming it does lead to boston) the truangle shape on her left sleeve (looks like our right) might be the ctgo sign which is a pretty big landmark for boston. (but then again im sure there are other triangles elsewhere...) its been around since the 1940's or something.
what im curious about is the weird mark under the bird's tail, whether thats important of not.
i dont know if any of this has been mentioned before. ive spent many days just looking over everything that has been discussed
--->s.d.
scottrocks7
I looked over some of the posts and see what you are talking about. I guess we can agree to disagree. Anyway I have the address of my relative who has lived in Boston for over 50 years. I hope to get something out as soon as I can to him. I will have to send him this information regular mail. My uncle did not know his E-Mail address. I hope he joins this forum and can help you all.
I am less intrested in wether or not this is Canada then I am that Quebec City is not the location of the Canadian Casque. This would mean that we almost definately have an image and verse match for the New Orleans. That is where I will be focusing now. It sounds very much like the New Orleans casque is in Storyland in City Park.
Good Luck and Godspeed
forest_blight
Unknown:
what im curious about is the weird mark under the bird's tail, whether thats important of not.
welcome, syntheticdreams!
That would be the artist's signature, JJP
shecrab
scottrocks7 wrote::
I looked over some of the posts and see what you are talking about. I guess we can agree to disagree. Anyway I have the address of my relative who has lived in Boston for over 50 years. I hope to get something out as soon as I can to him. I will have to send him this information regular mail. My uncle did not know his E-Mail address. I hope he joins this forum and can help you all.
Unknown:
I am less intrested in wether or not this is Canada then I am that Quebec City is not the location of the Canadian Casque. This would mean that we almost definately have an image and verse match for the New Orleans. That is where I will be focusing now. It sounds very much like the New Orleans casque is in Storyland in City Park.
Unknown:
Good Luck and Godspeed
I hope so too. As for disagreement, that's what forums are for!
Example: I was utterly convinced that Image 2 was Niagara Falls. I still have quite a bit of information on that one--and I had quite a few very accurate and convincing markers--but when I read through the rest of the posts, I became more convinced of Charleston SC. Since, then, however, I'm leaning back toward Niagara Falls. That's how this puzzle has been--you're absolutely convinced of something, then someone finds something else, and bang--your mind changes.
We did explore Storyland in depth, I believe. I don't think anything ever came of it. Armstrong Park was also considered, but flooding after Katrina made that one a probable washout--all of this info can be found under Image 7. In my opinion, even though there are strong indicators that Image 7 looks like New Orleans, I am fairly convinced it is the St. Louis location. Again, you'll have to read through the back posts on the image thread to understand why.
After knowing where two of the casques were, we know only two
other
things for certain: the author stated that there is a casque buried in St. Louis, and that there is one in Canada, but we do not know where in Canada. It might be anywhere from Vancouver to Newfoundland.
One of the best tools we have is the Litany of the Jewels, the poem in the beginning of the book that explains where the jewels and casques orginated--which world-wide countries they came from. This matches up with a list in the back of the book that shows where in
this country
the types of fair folk settled. So you have correlations among the images: each image has a month, a time of day, a flower and a gemstone that it 'belongs' with, but it also has a country of origin. This should make it easier (I would think) to pinpoint where the casque locations are. Image 11 is Italian, a peridot is the gem, and gladiolus the flower; (I can't remember offhand what time of day and month these go with, but the info is in the Secret Wiki.) And so it goes. Knowing these things ahead of time enables us to narrow the search to relevant places.
And to you, as well.
shecrab
For those interested....here is a website with some photos of Boston buildings. I was rather taken by the Grain Exchange building...
You'll see why when you click on the link.
hxxp://www.celebrateboston.com/architecture/victorian/grainexchangephotos.htm
shecrab
Once again, one thing leads to another. I also posted this under Verse 3.
Here's a thought...
I was noodling around on Image 11, and came up with a site that had an interesting building, the Grain Exchange building (next to Faneuil Hall). The building had a passing resemblance to our box castle in Image 11, and it also had some elements of that image in the facade. When I looked into the building, I discovered it was designed by H. H. Richardson, so I googled him--and discovered that he
also designed Trinity Church
...where we have been looking. Many of the elements in the image are associated with Trinity, including the box castle, and the checkerboard images...and the collar images...So I googled the church again--and something jumped out at me. This:
Note the arrows. Not only do they repeat elements of Image 11--the round window, the checkerboard pattern on the dress, the collar designs (see the courtyard blocks!--I got excited when I saw that!) but also they echo some of the verse elements: notably,
your back to the stairs.
Could THESE be the stairs? There look like plenty of places to bury a casque, and with other elements present, perhaps THIS is the area we're supposed to be in, not in the BPL--which is of course, right across the way from Trinity Church. The "middle section" could mean the middle section of that courtyard--where there appears to be plants and trees. Or maybe the verse has been pointing to Trinity all along--it's in the "middle section" of Copley Square itself.
I don't know what's across the courtyard from the stairs, but there would be really only ONE way to "face the water and keep your back to the stairs" if that was the ocean or the river he refers to--but perhaps there is a fountain there as well so that might be the water you could face?
This location might solve all our problems: Not only can it be located by using Xenophon and Thucydides on the library freize,it keeps us in Copley Square, where most people thought the verse led to, AND it satisfies a lot of the elements in the image
bclews
If I may add some more fuel to the fire --
If you put your back to the stairs in the photo you would be looking at the fountain just off the right edge of the photo. I don't know if that fountain was there in the 80's, though.
Also, if you look at image 11 and read the numbers on the window in reverse sequence (I don't know why) you could get "1910". In your photo, just at the right edge of the image is a statue of Phillips Brooks. The plaque on the statue states that it was erected in "MCMX". Yep, 1910.
But, it is a VERY public, and open, area. It would be impossible to dig there unnoticed.
shecrab
Unknown:
If I may add some more fuel to the fire --
If you put your back to the stairs in the photo you would be looking at the fountain just off the right edge of the photo. I don't know if that fountain was there in the 80's, though.
Also, if you look at image 11 and read the numbers on the window in reverse sequence (I don't know why) you could get "1910". In your photo, just at the right edge of the image is a statue of Phillips Brooks. The plaque on the statue states that it was erected in "MCMX". Yep, 1910.
Unknown:
But, it is a VERY public, and open, area. It would be impossible to dig there unnoticed.
Excellent!! Yes, the fountain was there in 1982--the entire area has not changed very much, from what I could garner from reading about it. I saw a painting of the courtyard and gardens done in the 70's and the fountain was depicted. IF the fountain is the 'water' we're supposed to face, that is. THe water may refer to some other water, or the Charles River or the Ocean, both within spittin' distance! For that matter, maybe he meant holy water--this is a church, after all. Is there a baptismal font close by?
No, not necessarily---during the day perhaps. But at night? Disguised as a maintenance worker? Or as an "official?" Perhaps not. The Chicago casque was also buried in a very public place--albeit in a corner somewhat out of sight--and the Cleveland one ditto. I think he could have done it. According to old posts and communications with him, he did use all those techniques to get the casques buried. And in 1981-2, it would have been less patrolled, more accessible (my guess).
So who wants to go to Boston? Where is Melissa? (Insatiable) and her boyfriend? I'd go myself, but I'm moving this month---I'll have no time.
slappybuns
i found this at Boston University, it reminded me of the picture. (which might just be pointing to Boston Globe) but i hadn't seen anyone mention this sphere.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image ... 00d20b765d
also at Boston University is the Truth Window.
can't remember where i found this:
Benjamin Brawley wrote : Negro American Writers: Early American Negro w/ poem from Charles L. Reason: In Truth, Be Free---Church of Boston, Peoples Baptist church of Boston
but i was leaning more to the Kennedy Library at the end of the Freedom Trail for that line. (in truth, be free)
good luck on your moving shecrab
bclews
Here is a view of the fountain/stairs area. Zooming in helps.
hxxp://www.panoramamagazine.com/panoram ... 0Fountain/
shecrab
Clews, that panorama is great!! I can see several places a casque might be buried. Now--we need to pinpoint it.
And there are a couple of things from the verse that need to be uncovered yet--the coliseum, metal walls, black falcon/hawk, etc. and the starting point---where would you originally stand so that you could 'take five steps in the area of his direction?' Presumably, this means take five steps North, since we've determined that Th is indeed north of X. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned a temporary 'coliseum' being erected in this area--back in the 80's--or is my memory faulty here?
I also noticed that the two 'spires' in the fountain look something like the castle spires--not exactly, mind you, but somewhat. The fountain edge where the water spouts come from also look a bit like a crenellated wall if you look down on them from above. And the concrete blocks around the edge of it mimic the blocks in the window and wall behind the woman in the image. Nothing is exact, but I can't see it very well, either--not even in Clews' excellent panorama.
I also looked again at the image in the light of the discovery of the backwards 1910, and by george, you're absolutely right--it DOES say 1910--in fact, quite clearly once you look at it that way!
The sphere in Slappy's picture is indeed interesting, however, it's a bit far off our location. I did like the idea of the spheres pointing to the "Boston Globe." I hadn't thought of that one either! Just another way of saying "Boston" IMHO.
So to recap: if the larger verse elements point to simply being in Boston (Paul Revere's ride, Thucy/Xeno, North, Green tower of lights (old South Church,) and narrow it down through the image elements to Copley Square, then these ARE VERY LIKELY the stairs and this MUST be the water.
Logically, it's the only answer that makes any sense--the courtyard at BPL was pretty good, but we know the casque will never be unearthed from there because it was all dug up and replaced. This hasn't been, and it's got more 'hiding' potential. Plus, it's already in the "middle section" of the square.
However, since it's winter right now, the ground probing will probably have to wait until a thaw.
Clews....are you in Boston or near it? That panorama was really good. Did you take the pictures?
And Slappy...thank you! I'm sure i'll have my hands full in the next month or so. I haven't moved in 8 years and I've accumulated a lot mroe stuff since.
Nice work everyone!! Hope your new year is going well!
slappybuns
this picture of the stone work in front of phillip brooks really looks like the collar design to me.
hxxp://galen-frysinger.com/graphics/boston1.jpg
that was great recognizing the roman numerals bclews. can you tell what the numbers or letters on her left sleeve are? looks like "House" to me
or 1105.
shecrab
If you look at other pics of the Phillips Brooks statue, you'll also find that the podium holding the Bible is in the shape of a black eagle. It only superficially resembles the bird in the image, but it IS a large bird of prey.
forest_blight
shecrab wrote::
And there are a couple of things from the verse that need to be uncovered yet--the coliseum, metal walls, black falcon/hawk, etc. and the starting point---where would you originally stand so that you could 'take five steps in the area of his direction?' Presumably, this means take five steps North, since we've determined that Th is indeed north of X. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned a temporary 'coliseum' being erected in this area--back in the 80's--or is my memory faulty here?
shecrab wrote::
I also noticed that the two 'spires' in the fountain look something like the castle spires--not exactly, mind you, but somewhat. The fountain edge where the water spouts come from also look a bit like a crenellated wall if you look down on them from above. And the concrete blocks around the edge of it mimic the blocks in the window and wall behind the woman in the image. Nothing is exact, but I can't see it very well, either--not even in Clews' excellent panorama.
shecrab wrote::
I also looked again at the image in the light of the discovery of the backwards 1910, and by george, you're absolutely right--it DOES say 1910--in fact, quite clearly once you look at it that way!
shecrab wrote::
So to recap: if the larger verse elements point to simply being in Boston (Paul Revere's ride, Thucy/Xeno, North, Green tower of lights (old South Church,) and narrow it down through the image elements to Copley Square, then these ARE VERY LIKELY the stairs and this MUST be the water.
Logically, it's the only answer that makes any sense--the courtyard at BPL was pretty good, but we know the casque will never be unearthed from there because it was all dug up and replaced. This hasn't been, and it's got more 'hiding' potential. Plus, it's already in the "middle section" of the square.
I find it difficult to accept that Thucydides is north of Xenophon - it is literally the opposite on the facade of the BPL. Is
any
arrangement of these two names enough to pinpoint Copley Square as the spot?
There was indeed a colisseum in Copley Square... two of them in fact, built in 1869 and 1872.
This sounds like a stretch to me. The obelisks on the fountain look nothing like our lady's castle.
The 1910 is a good discovery, but we can say with the same degree of confidence that it is any of these numbers:
0191
1410
0141
1610
0161
Maybe, but was that particular fountain there in 1981-2? The last I heard, bclews (8/4/06) indicated that the square was redesigned in 1983, removing a completely different-looking fountain and installing the current one. After the 1965 Copley Square Competition, there was a
different fountain in the Square
. All may hinge on when this fountain was replaced.
boogieman
Got to love Copely!
I believe that the fountain had been changed in the remodeling after 82', but if the location of the new fountain is the same, then it really doesn't matter, so long as the casque wasn't buried next to it. I like the 1910 thing, I just don't see a zero in the window. I see 19177 in reverse, I think.
forest_blight
The old fountain looks a lot smaller than the current one, but it also looks like the whole Square (the visible part, anyway) was paved over, leaving no room to bury a casque. Can we find more images of Copley Square from between 1965 and 1983?
shecrab
Unknown:
I find it difficult to accept that Thucydides is north of Xenophon - it is literally the opposite on the facade of the BPL. Is any arrangement of these two names enough to pinpoint Copley Square as the spot?
Unknown:
This sounds like a stretch to me. The obelisks on the fountain look nothing like our lady's castle.
I think copley was pinpointed not so much because of Thucy and Xeno's position, but because their names DO appear in Copley on the BPL frieze--also because the Trinity Church spires DO look like the box castle and has so many of the decorative elements appearing elsewhere in the image.
Even if they are not oriented in North/South
directions
on the frieze, I understood that Th. is actually HIGHER on the frieze than X. That would be "north" to some--and we can't forget that literary reference about "a Thucy. at Boston, a Xeno. at New York, etc.." Boston is definitely North of New York. So either way, or
almost
every way, I suppose, you might say it works out that Th. is north of X. However, don't forget that logically, if it's not North, then it's South--and we must take five steps SOUTH. Trouble is we don't know from WHERE.
Well, they're tall and they're pointy at the top. Not too off--maybe. LOL....
You're right, though--this is a bit of a stretch. Especially if this fountain was not built until after 1983 Yet--there was a fountain there--and i remember seeing the pics of it before now that you reposted them--sorry for duplicatiing the ideas!
And ditto for the numbers--but I had not considered
1910
as being significant until seeing the Brooks statue. I can't think of any significance the other numbers might have--this has been the only one that has made any sense tp me so far.
I'm thinking that the grassy area by the new fountain is not where we dig--but closer to the church. Facing the water you can still have your back to the stairs, or so I believe from looking at the panoramic shot. We can't dig in the flower beds, that is certain. And we can't dig in the open areas, so that doesn't leave too many digable places--unless you get in closer to the church.
shecrab
Here are some other ideas. Someone wanted to know what the letters in the sleeve said: here's a closeup you can see better. I think they are the letters N o i m(?).
And then there's this: the crack in the wall, lower right of the Image: looks a bit like the satellite view of the Boston area to me. I reversed it to get a better match.
Then this: Maybe these represent our "five steps?" Perhaps the "middle section" is represented by the middle section of this dress apron?
forest_blight
Okay, but we still need Italy - this is definitely the Italian picture.
How about this? It's got Italy, Boston, Old North Church, and Paul Revere...
hxxp://turnhere.com/co_GoogleEarth.aspx?filmname=northend
forest_blight
Check out the pavement directly in front of our MCMX Phillips Brooks statue -- the part right at the officer's feet:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1851449979&size=o
slappybuns
thanks for enlarging the pictures ck!
could the circles in the skirt be certain spots in copley square? or is copley square a rectangle?
i would have counted the big circle on the left as a spot too.
is there a # 19 copley square, i couldn't find any addresses with bclews panorama
or could the skirt be spots on the freedom trail or national historic parks. just seems with the verse you end up in front of paul revere, the park, a statue, a square, a house or something.
oh and doesn't his house end up in little italy???
slappybuns
boogieman i see the 77 also, but it could be LL, lol, i started to say like 100 in roman numerals, but that would be a C.
is there some big fan or vent around copley square? it's stuck in my head about "near those who pass the coliseum" would be fans, you know like sports fans
, and remember that famouus picture of marilyn monroe with her skirt flying up? is there something like that there?
slappybuns
i tried making these parks fit the verse, but not being familiar with the area, i get all the parks mixed up:
# The Bunker Hill Monument - directly owned and operated by the NPS.
# The Charlestown Navy Yard (including the USS Constitution) - The Navy Yard itself belongs to the Park Service, but the Constitution is still a commissioned U.S. Navy warship.
# Dorchester Heights - directly owned and operated by the NPS.
# Faneuil Hall - Owned and operated by the City of Boston, and interpreted by National Park Rangers.
# The Old North Church - Owned and operated by its parish.
# The Old South Meeting House - Owned and operated by an independent organization founded to preserve it.
# The Old State House - Owned and operated by the Bostonian Society since 1881.
# The Paul Revere House - Owned and (oops i didn't copy it all)
see how it ends up at paul revere's house?
don't laugh but i was thinking like :
"those who pass the coliseum"----- fan
"with metal walls"---- metal---------fan and metal----fanueil, ( i read where it rhymed with panel,
)
"face the water"----the navy yard
"your back to the stairs"-- dorchester heights (heights--steps)
"feel at home"----the meeting house?
just thinking out loud
,
i did see at the paul revere park some words all around the base of something, i'll go back and see if i can find what they were
slappybuns
just one more thing, hehe
if the tunic is copley square, the fairy is just a little ways off one corner....
slappybuns
forest_blight, you're right, the "feel at home" would be little italy for colon Savenelli.
and that's the location of paul revere's house.
slappybuns
at paul revere park:
hxxp://www.bostonharborwalk.com/dbuploa ... evere1.jpg
i believe it's Robert Frost's poem "The Gift Outright" that he read for JFK inauguration
i think this park is also called "the prado"
does anyone know why i keep thinking prado means truth? dictionary says it means meadow.
slappybuns
it was early, my only excuse, i was getting The Pravda (the russian newspaper, which does mean the truth ) mixed up with the Prado, sorry
shecrab
I could kick myself for not thinking of this earlier, since I am, after all, somewhat of a hockey fan.
The Boston Bruins play hockey at a coliseum
. The TD Banknorth Garden. This is built on
top
of a transportation hub---the NORTH STATION--a major rail hub for commuter trains. It was built in 1995 to replace the original coliseum built on the same site, the Boston Garden.
those who pass the coliseum
With metal walls.
Duh.
Near those who pass the coliseum--may therefore mean the BUSSES that pass the station. Or the TRAINS that pass the station. Both trains and busses have metal walls. So the casque in Copley might be hidden near the bus stop or the train station stop--or maybe we're supposed to use the bus/train stop to orient ourselves. It might be easier to find the "five steps" that way.
I have been trying to find landmarks in copley Plaza for the round spots/leaves/whatevers on the woman's dress apron. I am unsuccessful so far, because I can't find a satellite pic of hte place that doesn't have the stupid shadow from the Hancock buildling obscuring it. The attached pic is the best I can get out of Google earth/maps. I've marked the stairs and the fountain (A and B) but you can see that the three squares of the plaza encompass the BPL (top square), Trinity church (bottom square) and the "middle section," where the grass and trees are. That's pretty clear, actually. So my belief is that "in the middle section" means simply in the middle section--of the three. Unfortunately, because the Hancock building obscures any details, I can't tell what's nearer the church.
FB, that pic of the statue of Brooks was AWESOME. You can see the eagle on the podium and that round circle at the feet of the officer!! I think that's the window frame right enough.
And Slappy--thank you for a most entertaining ride through your mental processes! I loved it.
shecrab
Here's a better pic of the middle section--still obscured by Hancock but a little clearer.
bclews
First, for nice aerial images of the area try local.live.com
To answer some questions --
No, I didn't take that particular panorama.
I live a couple of hours away from Boston.
I believe the fountain is newer than the casque.
I've added a few more relevant pictures to my Flickr page. I hope they help.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews
shecrab
Nice work, Clews, thank you!!
slappybuns
ck, lol, you're so polite! i can live with "interesting", that's much better than what they call me around here!
now that you mentioned "bus" , i'm seeing the word "BUS" on her sleeve.
on the other sleeve looks like backwards 70
"hope" coming out of the box, makes me think of the church (faith, belief, dreams) or a hospital.
could those two columns or pedestals (at the bottom of the picture) be the base of the water fountain?
bclews do you know where is the citgo sign is in relation to copley and little italy?
ck, do you see letters or roman numerals on the left side of the big oval, on the left side of the crack, before the 77?
i know all you have thought of copley square for a long time, but maybe something we say might spark something.
i really feel that the phillips brooks statue is a starting place, maybe it's the big dot in the skirt.
after looking at bclews pictures again, i think those columns could be the bases of where the water falls off the fountain.
shecrab
Unknown:
ck, do you see letters or roman numerals on the left side of the big oval, on the left side of the crack, before the 77?
Do you mean here? 'Cos if you do, then no, sorry.
Here is another interesting feature:
NAA or ANA? (sheesh--this is beginning to resemble Dar....everyone
RUN
!
)
These were really hard to see in the original pics, but when I enlarged them, they were easier.
forest_blight
It has been suggested that the ANA panel resembles Copley Square.
slappybuns
i noticed that big triangle from ck's aerial picture, but i wasn't sure if the road really went like that.
ck, i meant the other side of the 77's
...down the left of that line coming out of her hair.
shecrab
I still don't see anything, but here's the closeup.
bclews
I believe Copley Square was originally two triangles. They closed the diagonal street to form a square.
I don't know if it has anything to do with the ANA symbol, but it is an interesting coincidence.
shseverin11
bclews wrote::
I believe Copley Square was originally two triangles. They closed the diagonal street to form a square.
That's correct, from friendsofcopleysquare.com/history.html
"1966 The City proposed closing off Huntington to join the existing triangles into a "square." The result was a sunken park, which would be less noisy and offer seclusion from busy street life."
But since this change happened before BP wrote the book, I don't know if he would have represented Copley Square that way.
slappybuns
look at the shape of boston common on this map:
hxxp://www.thefreedomtrail.org/maps/pdf ... ps-map.pdf
isn't that the shape on her right wrist cuff?
it looks like from copley you'd go about 5 blocks to boston common... i have no idea if you'd be moving north
and is the arch of the information center the other shape in her cuff? the design around the arch.
hxxp://www.personal.psu.edu/users/t/x/t ... inning.JPG
this fairy is cultural right? ugh all of boston is cultural or historic.
Trohn
shecrab wrote::
Do you mean here? 'Cos if you do, then no, sorry.
Here is another interesting feature:
NAA or ANA? (sheesh--this is beginning to resemble Dar....everyone
RUN
!
)
These were really hard to see in the original pics, but when I enlarged them, they were easier.
That panel below the 'ANA' one,
that is a representaton of the BPL courtyard (square surronded by another square with a dot (fountain)
in the middle)
slappybuns
do the bruins and celtics play at the same arena? don't those orbs in the picture look like basketballs?
slappybuns
in this picture the bus stop looks like right in front of the church.....
hxxp://www.panoramamagazine.com/panoram ... y%20Front/
(i think that's a bus stop)
maybe the "18th day, 12th hour" is just talking about "time"...LOL, it is becoming DAR, ck
isn't there a clock by that church? or a sundial?
slappybuns
look! there's some vent thing (fan) right there in that picture!! lol
shecrab
slappybuns wrote::
do the bruins and celtics play at the same arena? don't those orbs in the picture look like basketballs?
Yes...and yes they do.
slappybuns
hey guys i just read that they used to have lamppost mailboxes in boston!! are there any still around? and if so...any in copley square?
!
that would have the letters lit by lamplight!
slappybuns
here's one :
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
forest_blight
Nice find, slaps! Here's a picture of it:
(corner of Mt. Vernon and Louisburg Sq.)
slappybuns
thanks, forest_blight
don't know if this is anything, but if you look at the bird's claw as an ear, in between the lines, i see a rat with a long body.. so doing my free association with words, rat terrier, boston rat terrier....or it could be a bear (bruin), i would like for it to be a lion like these at the library:
hxxp://jssgallery.org/Essay/BPL/Photo_G ... irway.html
but i can't see a lion.
shecrab
slappybuns wrote::
hey guys i just read that they used to have lamppost mailboxes in boston!! are there any still around? and if so...any in copley square?
!
that would have the letters lit by lamplight!
What a cool idea!! Nice work!
shseverin11
slappybuns wrote::
thanks, forest_blight
don't know if this is anything, but if you look at the bird's claw as an ear, in between the lines, i see a rat with a long body.. so doing my free association with words, rat terrier, boston rat terrier....or it could be a bear (bruin), i would like for it to be a lion like these at the library:
I've always seen that part of the image as a cow laying down
slappybuns
maybe in the middle section means in the middle of the library, that's where the courtyard is, right? i know someone thought of that 30 some pages ago.
maybe that cow
is representing the lions, and maybe her hair(the girl's) is representing the lion's mane and you dig behind the one opposite of the brook's statue, or to the left of the lamppost.
where are those lions in comparison to the brook's statue?
those strings of hair have to mean something.
"at home" at the library...would that be fantasy area, mythical (for fairies, trolls), or just where you relax?
and why isn't there any sign of a sock for red sox? hmm, guys, the design in the tunic could be like the design in argyle socks, lol
hxxp://www.sockbroker.com/argyle3.jpg
so then the "home" could still be baseball, fenway.
is there anything free at fenway? maybe a place where everyone sneaks in? freeway? or just don't go inside the park.
hxxp://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/r ... _for_free/
feel at home....mama's kitchen..
is there a famous mama's fried chicken near paul revere's house? or fenway or copley?
i guess i said chicken because of the bird's wing looking like a chicken or turkey.
a mama's pizza would be better for this picture, right?
even if the mailboxes aren't on the lampposts anymore, the lamppost would still be there right?
i do go round and round don't i, lol.
shseverin11 are you in boston?
slappybuns
i found a good picture of that citgo sign. i didn't realize it was right at fenway park.
was hoping there was a billboard for mama's cooking at fenway, lol
hxxp://searchwinit.techtarget.com/searc ... ay2304.jpg
in truth, be free...................babe ruth (rhyming)
lolololol, don't ya'll wish there was someone here to stop me!
slappybuns
Dirty Water by the Standell's is the red sox's victory song
in truth, b. free...........babe ruth is stuck in my head now
slappybuns
that could be a baseball in the oval, like this:
hxxp://prescott.imbri.com/bpmagic/BosFenway/index.shtml
scroll down to see the picture after the article.
slappybuns
angle yourself from the ball in the oval, to that small shiny ball light(in the oval),
would that be on the outside of the park, right side of fenway?
slappybuns
oops that sign is across from the park...so now i'm lost
but since they are across from each other in the picture, it is still around fenley...
shecrab
LOL...Slappy...you're really funny. Now you've got me looking for socks.
I always thought the strings of hair looked like the map picture of the wharf sections in Boston Harbor. It can't be matched exactly, but it resembles the wharves.
slappybuns
i know it's awful, it all seems logical at the time but i don't think an element of logic ever comes out of it! i go from food, to socks to baseball!
but i do like that as a baseball in the oval, did you?
boogieman
slappybuns wrote::
in truth, b. free...........babe ruth is stuck in my head now
Babe Ruth was a Yankee!!!!!
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Babe Ruth was a Yankee!!!!!
not in 1981!!
bigmattyh
Trohn wrote::
not in 1981!!
And he was a Red Sox first...
shecrab
You know, your assertations about baseball forced me to reexamine the image with a magnifying glass, and you'll probably not be surprised at what I found. Apparently either Preiss or Palencar was a Bosox fan. By magnifying the image and looking very closely, you can clearly see that what we thought was a peridot, was in fact a box containing an autographed souvenir. We can assume that since this was painted prior to 2004, (before the breaking of the Curse,) the Fay was trying to get rid of the embarrassment. At least that's my take on it. You'll have to make up your own minds.
slappybuns
LOL!!! thanks you guys!
i'm just glad someone's listening
i think i'm about boston'd out. i'm gonna stick with fenway.................for now.......
forest_blight could you post that picture of the baseball in the sky for me from this site:
hxxp://prescott.imbri.com/bpmagic/BosFenway/index.shtml
you guys are great!
slappybuns
just this one other thing, since ck brought up the curse..............
i was thinking of that road sign that the city left up until they won again...where was it located?
it said "reverse the curve" and someone had painted it to say "reverse the curse"
if it's around fenway park and there's a lamppost with a mailbox on it close by......................lol
shseverin11
slappybuns wrote::
shseverin11 are you in boston?
No, I'm near NYC.
forest_blight
slappybuns wrote::
forest_blight could you post that picture of the baseball in the sky for me...
Sure thing:
slappybuns
thank you forest_blight!
dio you think it could be the orb in the oval?
i was hoping you were close to boston shseverin11,
forest_blight
I think you're way off-base here, slappy (no pun intended). But then, I think that about everyone's theories, including my own. I'll *start* to believe you once you dig up a casque
Of course, shecrab's "red socks" discovery is obviously correct
shecrab
Well of course it is. Anyone can see that.
slappybuns
okay another ball in the sky
hxxp://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbv ... common.jpg
slappybuns
seems i forgot about football.
what is the boston team? where do they play?
"those who pass"
i forgot about that even tho i thought that that looked like a football helmet in the box.
shecrab
No problem Slapps....just think of it this way: the Red Sox can also be passers.
"Hey guys, want to win a world series?"
"No thanks--we'll pass."
At least that's how they answered for 60 years.
shecrab
slappybuns wrote::
seems i forgot about football.
what is the boston team? where do they play?
There IS no "Boston" NFL Team anymore. It is now called the New England Patriots, and they play at Gillette Stadium. They played at Foxboro stadium until 2002, however, in Foxborough Mass. They also played at Harvard Stadium until 1970.
I loved the name of one of the Soccer teams that also played in Foxboro Stadium--The Boston Tea Men. How weenie is that?
boogieman
Hey now....Everyone is getting a little "slappyhappy" here. 8)
I think that we need some more footsoldiers at the church. What happened to Insatiable? We scare her off? What greater resourse do we have than the BPL...I mean, all the info we need is probably contained in the building that our first clues were discovered on. (Thucy and Xeno) And right across the street from Copley Square to boot.
slappybuns
you're right boogieman
the boston public library has to be the right place, and i do get carried away, someone should slap me, lol
hopefully someone is out there looking and maybe something we say will help..i think the bus stop (ck's) and the lamppost mailboxes are both good ideas that hadn't been mentioned before and it would be great if something we said helped find the treasure.
boogieman
slappybuns wrote::
you're right boogieman
the boston public library has to be the right place, and i do get carried away, someone should slap me, lol
hopefully someone is out there looking and maybe something we say will help..i think the bus stop (ck's) and the lamppost mailboxes are both good ideas that hadn't been mentioned before and it would be great if something we said helped find the treasure.
All in good fun.
You know, the mailbox lamp posts are a great idea. If there was one in Copely I would dig under it, electrical wires be damned!!! I know I'm asking for it (asking for three or four posts
), but what is it about the bus stop that you like?
slappybuns
"near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls"
slappybuns
no don't go digging around lampposts!! it was just an idea, a possible "letters lit by lamplight"
from the prudential building (at copley square, i think) there is a skywalk observatory, which would give us the sky look of the middle of the oval
but you can see everything from there just about, but it mentioned the "Dreams of Freedom Immigration Museum" on MILK Street, and i had noticed that it looked like a MILK BOTTLE in the right corner of the picture with a cork orb on it.
and it looks to me like "post office square" is close to that, which could be "all the letters".........
or it could be because this is called "newspaper row" (i think) and the BOSTON GLOBE had their offices there, and we do have a GLOBE in the picture
slappybuns
museum of science observatory at science park also could be the scene in the oval,
isn't this close to the longfellow bridge? and he's the one who made "18th day, 12th hour" famous.
Trohn
I may have an image that will put the location discussion to a rest
(if someone can perform a location confirmation)
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/takomabibelot/968593790/
Match up the iron railing (I assume it overlooks the courtyard)
with the iron waste coat of Pandora....
mighty close.....
slappybuns
hey trohn i saw those before when i was trying to find a close up of the doors at the library.. but they just don't seem to look like the same curlicues to me. i've been searching for those curlicues also, i saw something close on a plaque at a graveyard but don't know if i could find it again.
slappybuns
but on closer look...they are very close
Trohn
slappybuns wrote::
but on closer look...they are very close
an on site inspection (with the book in hand) is needed.
boogieman
I don't see it.
slappybuns
boogieman, don't look at the inside curlicues, just the big ones, that look like a big C.
shecrab
I don't think we ought to get wrapped around these curlicues so very exactly. I don't think there is going to be an exact match anywhere.
If you trace the curlicues you can, however, make letters out of them. You can spell "Copley." No lie. Try it.
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
If you trace the curlicues you can, however, make letters out of them. You can spell "Copley." No lie. Try it.
Do you have a starting point? (and can we call them something else?
)
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Do you have a starting point? (and can we call them something else?
)
After some additional research, I do not think the iron railing is relevant (even if we can find
a resemblance in them)
These iron railings are on the sixth floor (too high to be relevant from ground level)
shecrab
boogieman wrote::
Do you have a starting point? (and can we call them something else?
)
It's my belief these swirls, as well as the ones on the contents pages are just a way to disguise letters. The swirls below can spell Copley in cursive if you trace the
C
O
P
L
E
Y
Here's what I mean:
slappybuns
Lizardlips copley square hotel doorknobs---feel at home (p. 26 of this thread)
trohns typewritten letters--39 trinity place (i went from: feather in fountain, to quill pens to fountain pens) (all from the mark in the oval)
jambone's boston T--the perch the hawk is on
and ck's bus stop
piictures i liked that i chanced upon while researching:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Union_Square1.jpg
and this hotel:
hxxp://www.venere.com/img/hotel/3/6/6/4 ... ance_1.jpg
jurys boston hotel
say the tunic is copley square, the fairy is not on the tunic
.
(
slappybuns
i forgot this one:
hxxp://travel.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/tr ... hours.html
forest_blight
boogie, that's the hardest I've laughed all day - thanks.
This idea reminds me of a trick Michael Stadther used in ATT (see pp. 77 and 78), hiding cursive writing in loopy swirls. I still remember the adrenaline rush of realizing what he'd done on those pages (this was before I discovered tweleve.org and 12gems.com, and realized that hundreds if not thousands of people before me had already seen it - what a wake-up call). Try as I might, I can't extract the same kind of thing from P11. Sorry shecrab, but boogie's picture makes my point better than I could.
boogieman
Just having fun shecrab...I just can't stop.
slappybuns
okay guys, my hands are shaking, i think this is it!
Commonwealth Avenue Mall:
narrowest link of the Emerald Necklace
The Commonwealth Avenue Mall, designed in 1865 to resemble the boulevards of Paris, is a showcase for public art. A variety of statues related to Boston history guard the landscaped greens linking the Back Bay’s “alphabet streets”: Arlington, Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Gloucester, and Hereford.
all the letters!!
trying to find all the statues there i found:
domingo faustino sarmiento---was a disciple of Horace Mann,
i can't seem to find a good picture of the statue so far, all kind of dark and don't show the bottom part
but looking at the picture of alexander hamilton, the shape is like the whole picture
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Comm ... r_2006.jpg
slappybuns
lol, while i was looking look what i did find!
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/150 ... otostream/
lol
slappybuns
that "reverse the curse" picture was just for fun...not part of commonwealth avenue mall
the address is "18 Commonwealth"
in this picture: the gate could be the two pedestals in our picture:
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
slappybuns
i mean the gate posts for commonwealth, not the other gate
slappybuns
i think this is the lief ericson statue:
hxxp://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/3725 ... 70a964.jpg
slappybuns
here's a better one:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/historyofboston/2071821288/
aarrrgh! then i find this picture that looks like the bottom of our image:
is it anywhere close to commonwealth mall?
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/historyofbosto ... otostream/
slappybuns
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonweal ... ue,_Boston
commonwealth mall connects public garden with the fens-----middle section
samuel eliot morison---presidential medal of freedom, American Academy of Arts and Letters
slappybuns
domingo faustino sarmiento:
hxxp://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/No ... -BR-1.html
slappybuns
could this be our fairy?
hxxp://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_fre ... _pg_01.jpg
george robert white memorial boston public garden
shecrab
boogieman wrote::
Just having fun shecrab...I just can't stop.
Your joke was lost on me, boogie...I can't read it.
Seriously--the pic is too small.
But if you're trying to tell me you could find almost anything in the swirls, then you missed MY point, which was that the swirls aren't going to be matched exactly, and, er--that you can find anything in them. Read back through the thread---there was a time when someone thought they said "SLC" for "Salt Lake City." Remember?
slappybuns
hxxp://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_fre ... te_pg.html
shecrab
Unknown:
landscaped greens linking the Back Bay’s “alphabet streets”: Arlington, Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Gloucester, and Hereford.
Slappy, you're bouncing all over the city now. Public Gardens, commonwealth Ave.,--the casque just isn't that big.
Unfortunately, "ALL" the letters are not here. Only up to H.
slappybuns
i know it's a large area ck, but i think it is this area and not copley square that the cask is in.
and aren't they all connected? boston public garden and commonwealth avenue mall? i've always liked the public garden because of the cultural stuff.
in this picture i think you're going from the Mall to the public garden, and it's just a small street to cross (that's what it looks like to me)
i know someone has to be there to really know. can't you take a trip out there ck?
hxxp://picasaweb.google.com/liana.elyse ... 1902589362
and if that george robert white memorial is the fairy ....
slappybuns
i forgot...could that arthur fiedler statue in the boston public garden,made out of aluminum be our "metal" ?
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/a ... er_statue/
shecrab
Geez slapps....I WISH i could!! Unfortunately, this isn't the best time for me to travel.
ANyway, I know the feeling--you think you can see so much in everything around, but we need to narrow our focus not broaden it--unless you find an exact marker for something in the image in a place.
Anyhow, we do appreciate your efforts. At least I do. You cant' get fresh ideas without fresh minds working on these.
Here's something I've done: I took those swirls on the woman's dress and dropped out the background. Once that was done something showed up that was sort of unaddressed before: the colors of those little "buds" or leaves. It's far more noticeable without the distraction of the background. I saw that two of them were quite different--one is very much lighter and one is more "golden" than the others. It occurred to me that these swirls might be a map of sorts. There isn't any other map that we've been able to find in this image.
Examine this folks--does anyone think it might be pointing our way for us? Also--after our amusing efforts to make these come out in letters, I'm only about halfway convinced that there AREN'T letters in it. The large swirl in the foreground looks like a big backwards S--as anyone can see. So what if it IS a backwards S? It's no more weird than thinking the bird's perch is a large T (for the subway.) Maybe this S stands for SOUTH--and since it's backwards--maybe that means Reverse the Direction--to NORTH. Or maybe it means reverse the swirls themselves!
Food for thought, anyway...
slappybuns
i do think those spots are a map.. i tried the freedom trail to them, but i have no skills in that direction, lol
they are different sizes and shapes also
now i think they are for different statues in the public gardens
.....
i'd noticed the perch has a gold knob too on the right side
slappybuns
i also tried them with the bus stops but that was when i was thinking of another area so i'll have to look them up again.
shseverin11
Thought I'd throw this out there....I found the emerald necklace idea intriguing enough given that the picture has an emerald and there could be 9 squares on the woman's collar (with the 3rd from the left being smaller than the others). I googled "emerald necklace" and castle, since the castle is near the collar in the image. Castle Square came up. Perhaps we've been over thinking the castle by trying to find a building that matches it. Image 11 has a castle inside a square, Castle Square.
shseverin11
Another interesting tid bit to throw in the pot....If you look at Castle Square on the map, you'll see Peters Park close by. Peters Park has a baseball diamond and Fay St. runs next to it.
shecrab
Unknown:
Thought I'd throw this out there....I found the emerald necklace idea intriguing enough given that the picture has an emerald
The picture does
not
have an emerald--it's a peridot. they're also green, but lighter and yellower usually.
The emerald was the prize for the solve for Chicago.
shseverin11
shecrab wrote::
The picture does
not
have an emerald--it's a peridot. they're also green, but lighter and yellower usually.
The emerald was the prize for the solve for Chicago.
There goes that theory! Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not very good with my gemstones.
slappybuns
still...i like that area shseverin, it's still right around copley (if i'm looking at the right castle square)...just another place for me to get excited about, lol
ck, i printed out your spots, and can really see some numbers --3 at the bottom, 6 in the middle, either a 1 or 5 on the top.....
the spots might be entrances into a park or statues and the big gold one is important
those loops around the big spot bottom right is interesting
i was thinking the 3 blocks with the spots might mean 3 city blocks,
the fairy looks like she's about to dunk a basketball if anyone's following the sports, and the gem is green like the celtics colors
slappybuns
look at this map of boston public garden.......sure looks like we could match those spots:
hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/parks/stree ... fs/map.pdf
slappybuns
the statue of edward everett hale in boston public gardens, he wrote "man without a country, (i haven't read it but the name conjures up immigration to me.
the base looks like the milk bottle, bottom right of picture
base has large oval
the walking cane
the charles street gate has orbs on pedestal
"man of letters" on base of statue
hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=edward+ ... le+boston+
he also wrote a story about "the jumping mouse", and with the mouse (rat) in the picture by the perch/cane, seemed a neat coincidence
still trying to find a good picture around the oval at the base
shecrab
I'm going to throw this out there in hopes that some adrenaline-soaked researcher (hear that Slappy? LOL) will take the ball and run with it.
I can't find a lot of information about this place, however, and I'm fairly dogged myself. But what the heck.
Okay. SOUTH Boston. Yes, I know Copley is the favorite, and Trinity church looks a lot like the box castle. BUT there is a lot to recommend South Boston, too.
(1)
All the letters are there.
All the streets are named after numbers and letters. And they don't stop at H.
(2) Black Falcon avenue and port is right across the water. If you
face the water
you would face Black Falcon.
(3) There is a park called Independence Square there, abutting the Christopher Lee playground. It sits between M and N streets. One might say the ball fields at the playground could be the place you
feel at home
. The park was built on the site of one of the 'redoubts' (forts) that kept Boston from falling to British invaders. There is a Vietnam memorial there now, in the center of paths that are (from the air) clearly in the shape of a star--or rather, more clearly in the shape of the
two "A" symbols
on the left side of the woman's dress. (See pic below.)
(4) The circular shape of the bird's raised claw mimics the shape of the harbor and causeway that lead to
Castle
Island.
(5) Castle Island itself could be
metaphorically
pointing to our box castle.
(6) Logan airport is right across the water, past Black Falcon Ave., and might have our
green tower of lights
. I've only ever traveled to Boston in the daylight, so I can't tell you what color the tower might be.
(7) The
coliseum
and
metal walls
might be any number of things--but
those who pass
could be referring to the runners in the Marathon.
(8) The wharves resemble the ends of the woman's hair when seen from above, or on a map.
Anyway, this doesn't match everything, but it throws a different light on what we do know. I think it's worth exploring.
South Boston:
Independence Park:
slappybuns
no worries ck, i'm on it! lol
i've been trying to match up statues in boston public garden to dots.
that dang 70 (reversed, on her right elbow) has to be important, and it's all the way by the harbor, looks like around logan airport to me,. it doesn't hit on castle island tho. i will start looking over there now.
i had been into the harborwalk and jfk library before, i think i'd checked castle island but nothing had stood out to me
scottrocks7
I sent a letter to my distant relative that has lived in Boston for about 55 years a few days ago. He should be getting it today. I included links to the Wikki and to this site along with a brief sumation of why all of you think this is Boston and why I think this is Toronto. I do not know what he will do with this but I hope it helps all of you.
slappybuns
scottrocks, please ask him to check out the boston public library courtyard and everything around copley square!
i sure hope he gets hooked and can help us out!
slappybuns
good picture of christopher columbus park:
hxxp://abostonvignette.blogspot.com/200 ... -park.html
slappybuns
large
compass
on harborwalk...18th day, 12th hour?
hxxp://www.bostonharborwalk.com/dbuploads/long4.jpg
slappybuns
large compass on harborwalk...18th day, 12th hour?
hxxp://www.bostonharborwalk.com/dbuploads/long4.jpg
slappybuns
playing with words...
boston's green line
green tower of lights
"he
GREEN
Line is made up of 5 lines serving central Boston on N. America's oldest subway. Four of the lines operate as traditional streetcar lines outside of the subway. The Riverside line operates on an old Steam railroad right-of-way converted in the 1950's. This line is often called the first
LIGHT
rail line in the US before the phrase was even coined.
metal--silver
silver line
slappybuns
what if...thucydides and xenophon just mean "greek"
he used m and b for men and beast...
what if the greek is the "boston athenaean"
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/b ... um_plaque/
hxxp://www.newenglandtravelplanner.com/ ... um2583.jpg
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/get_it_while_y ... 184558796/
shecrab
Unknown:
what if...thucydides and xenophon just mean "greek"
I wondered about this too, but then I thought--why say two obscure greek names, instead of two easily recognizable ones?
Why not just say "Plato and Socrates?" or Feta Cheese and Ouzo? (LOL)...
I do however think they could mean TH and X, or Theta and Xi.
slappybuns
i thought that too, or even something with "ex".......like exeter street
slappybuns
ck i can't get all into the north end yet, even tho her hair does look like the harbor, i have to get these parks out of my system first.
look what boston common has:
the soldiers and sailors monument:
Between these pedestals are four large bronze reliefs. In the front is “The Departure for the War,” with a regiment marching by the State-House steps, the mounted officers, from left to right, being Colonels Lowell and Shaw, both of whom were killed, Colonel Cass, General B. F. Butler, and Quartermaster-Gen. Reed. On the steps are the Revs. Turner Sargent, A. H. Vinton, Phillips Brooks and Arch-bishop Williams; Governor Andrew, shorter than the others; Wendell Phillips, Mr. Whitmore, the poet
Longfellow,
and others.
look at these gates:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/488 ... otostream/
it has a Declaration of Independence Monument...."we hold these
TRUTHS
to be self evident, that all men are created
EQUAL
"
the parkman plaza has : "LEARNING" statue
the brewer fountain has the mythological figures associated with water.
and maybe the 5 could be pertaining to the Boston Massacre Memorial......the killing of 5 demonstrators
maybe the light coming out of the box is just for beacon street...........
here i go again
2fast4u2c
slappybuns wrote::
what if...thucydides and xenophon just mean "greek"
he used m and b for men and beast...
what if the greek is the "boston athenaean"
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/b ... um_plaque/
hxxp://www.newenglandtravelplanner.com/ ... um2583.jpg
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/get_it_while_y ... 184558796/
I thought I read that the m and b stood for Mozart and Beethoven, which were etched in stone on a building across the street from the park.
slappybuns
i remember reading that too, 2fast, but when i found shadowrunners account of the solve:
M and B---man and beast STATUE
congress, R--- STREET and RR
L sits----Lincoln STATUE
ten by 13---TREES
fence---FENCE
rumble--TRAIN
brush and music---BAND SHELL?
hush---ummm, be sneaky? lol, i dunno
were the words "man and beast" on the statue?? or was the statue the same as the picture? i'm not clear as to how he found the park.
slappybuns
what i did notice on both solves..
the 2nd line was a street.
cleveland:
2 countries--GREECE, ITALY
road curves-MLK ROAD
plot, 10th, right to left, 9th row, wall,--6 lines describing the WALL
7 steps--7 HOPS
socrates, pindar, apelles--GREEK CULTURAL GARDENS
columns--COLUMNS
slappybuns
just wanted to point out with this picture of the soldiers and sailors monument,
there's a bench--"feel at home"
and a light--"lit by lamplight"
and Longfellow--Eighteenth day, Twelfth hour"
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/492991515/
slappybuns
and the sailor---"face the water"
slappybuns
and couldn't the Parkman bandstand be the "Greek" reference?
hxxp://www.aviewoncities.com/img/boston/kveus3064p.jpg
slappybuns
oops i meant grandstand, lol
slappybuns
"feel at home" could be the baseball field also and
John Hancock's signature could be "all the letters are here to see"
and i'm not sure if thats supposed to be "bandstand or grandstand" for the Parkman thing
when i google earth for the boston common, there's this great big circular thing to the right of the baseball field, is that the parkman bandstand?
i can't get a close up but the circle sure looks like our image oval.
forest_blight
Unknown:
i remember reading that too, 2fast, but when i found shadowrunners account of the solve:
M and B---man and beast STATUE
I believe the "man and beast" reference is an early misconception. The sculptures on Congress were never known as "man and beast" - they are called "The Bowman" and "The Spearman":
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_(sculpture)
Furthermore, they are not "set in stone," as they are made of bronze. There is absolutely no logical link between those sculptures and the "M and B" reference.
However, there IS a logical link between "M and B are set in stone" and the names "Mozart" and "Beethoven," which are very definitely set in stone in the facade of a building very nearby on Michigan Ave.
boogieman
shecrab wrote::
Your joke was lost on me, boogie...I can't read it.
Seriously--the pic is too small.
I just drew in the words, in different colored letters like yours, "Its under the church" meaning the casque is buried under the church. I've been away for a few days so the funny part of it has faded a bit. The funny part for me was that it was a pain in the butt to do, but I did laugh my head off after I posted it...
slappybuns
thank you forest_blight, i like that better. so the first line:
M and B- --a BUILDING, PLAQUE nearby.
it feeds into my bostom common solve, lol
slappybuns
one piece of information i found interesting about boston's islands, but only because of Image 2, there is a Spectacle Island, so called because at low tide it looks like a pair of glasses. i know image 2 is charleston, why would he put spectacle island on there? just to show it's on the coast?
deer island has egg shaped sludge digesters that are major harbor landmarks and was a major landing point for thousands of refugees from the Irish Potato Famine, in 1850 an almshouse was built to house paupers and the infirms. It has been used for prisons, immigrants, military, orphans and farms.
Sylvia Plath wrote a poem called "Point Shirley" about Deer Island. (Sylvia Plath has come up in one of the other verses about a lighthouse).
1/3 of the island is park land.
slappybuns
look at this in boston common:
couldn't this be our feather in the oval:
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/g ... _monument/
that feather has occupied me, i was trying to do a rebus, like "dart" (the feather) and "mouth" because her mouth is so prominent, hahaha
does anyone else see everything i see with boston common?
shecrab
boogieman wrote::
I just drew in the words, in different colored letters like yours, "Its under the church" meaning the casque is buried under the church. I've been away for a few days so the funny part of it has faded a bit. The funny part for me was that it was a pain in the butt to do, but I did laugh my head off after I posted it...
You know, I did see that---after i said I couldn't read it, I suddenly READ it. DUH....
It was funny! (still is.) Nice work.
Slappy, I just don't think The Common is going to be the location, though there are some mighty tempting places and items there.
slappybuns
Castle Island:---1776, fort was repaired by troops under the command of Lt.
PAUL REVERE
every fort located there was always informally known as
The Castle
Edgar Allan Poe[b] based his story "[b]The CASK of Amontillado "[b] on an early Castle Island legend
fort independence is the [b]EIGHTH
fort built there
monument to Donald Mckay, shipbuilder, "Flying cloud and Sovereign of the Seas"
shecrab
And there you have it.
I think the thing is buried somewhere on Castle Island. Who's got a big shovel?
(GRIN)
Good work Slaps!! As usual! Now at least we have some harder evidence that this thing might be in South Boston. A lot of the area fits bits of the image. Now we need to match more parts of the verse: We need to find the stairs and the coliseum--and the green tower of lights.
I spent over two hours on Flickr going through over 9000 (that's right--nine THOUSAND) photos of the Boston area. There weren't too many in South Boston, most of them were in the other parts of the city. I didn't find a lot of usable stuff--but many of the photos we've posted on here already were there. I feel like I could find my way around this city in the dark!
shecrab
William Tudor, in the 1800's christened Boston
"The Athens of America."
There is speculation about what exactly he meant--generally it's assumed he meant because of the culture and the classical educational benefits available, but there is enough evidence to support a different theory also: that he was referring to democracy itself. At any rate, the nickname stuck, and Tudor was the founder of The Boston Athaeneum.
slappybuns
i know what you mean about the time it takes, i wasted a lot on the moakley federal building, there was some "truth" quote on it by brandeis, til i found out it wasn't even there in '82 ,
i should be looking into the charleston one because i'm going to be down there next weekend....
but not yet
slappybuns
ck, i don't know if you noticed, but on that picture you posted with the dots (circles), look at your #1
in the middle at top, follow that line til it starts to curve right, then turn your picture sideways and you'll see a column, right beside the curve
i see it clearly in your picture but not when i look in the book, does it look like something to you?
shecrab
Which picture is that, Slappy? I can't find one with dots....!
slappybuns
the one on page 38 in this thread, where you dropped the background of the swirls in her dress.
shecrab
Does it look like anything to me? Sure---a couple things. What are you thinking it looks like?
slappybuns
lol, it looks like a column!! or a monument or something to me.
nah, i dunno if it's anything, i can't see it in the book, just in your picture.
sorry
slappybuns
another plug for boston common
hxxp://flickr.com/search/?q=guild+steps ... mon&m=text
the Guild Steps 1917--in honor of Curtis Guild (1860-1915) three times governor of Massachusetts, and ambassador to Russia. The decorative iron railing was restored in 1978.
i can't seem to find a close up of the railing.
slappybuns
hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=freedom ... ker&m=text
isn't that our circles (dots, spots) in the skirt
the top one is triangular, then a big gold round one
forest_blight
Unknown:
the Guild Steps 1917...
That looks promising! Notice that the green "Beacon St." sign in the background could be interpreted as a "green tower of lights." I would love to see a side shot of the railing detail.
shecrab
slappybuns wrote::
hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=freedom ... ker&m=text
isn't that our circles (dots, spots) in the skirt
the top one is triangular, then a big gold round one
They look very much like them, yes.
FB....what post was your quote from?
boogieman
slappybuns wrote::
another plug for boston common
hxxp://flickr.com/search/?q=guild+steps ... mon&m=text
the Guild Steps 1917--in honor of Curtis Guild (1860-1915) three times governor of Massachusetts, and ambassador to Russia. The decorative iron railing was restored in 1978.
i can't seem to find a close up of the railing.
It was this one FB was quoting.
slappybuns
my ISP was screwy all day so i couldn't do anything:
this is the best map i've found for boston common, it shows where the sculpures are:
hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/parks/stree ... common.pdf
slappybuns
and this one for the freedom trail:
hxxp://www.kennedysmidtown.com/images/freedomtrail.jpg
slappybuns
the john hancock bldg has an observatory also
hxxp://boston.travelape.com/attractions ... servatory/
slappybuns
that lock of hair with the jewel looks like fort point channel to me, the jewel (in the image) seems to be somewhere in the south bay area where all the streets are alphabet letters (the area ck mentioned))
slappybuns
thomas park, telegraph hill and dorchester heights are close to 8th street
look at this picture of dorchester heights, if you look close you can see numbers ( 1 1) like around the oval
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/historyofbosto ... 245423838/
slappybuns
that just seems to far south of the hair tho.
but there is an Athens Street, and a silver and gould street for metal, broadway street-lights? and a greenbaum street. .......
slappybuns
gillette park is right there at the beginning of the channel, still looking for information about it.
slappybuns
marine park is interesting because olmsted designed it and it is connected to castle island and it has baseball fields.
it's on william "DAY" blvd.
slappybuns
a couple of good pictures of the gate at thomas park:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/antydiluvian/491319986/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/antydiluvi ... otostream/
joe moakley park is on william "day" blvd too.
slappybuns
do you think that little light in the picture could be for "boston light" ? that's what they call the lighthouse on little brewster island.
slappybuns
okay guys, i've tried to move away from boston common but i'm stuck here.
if you look at the christian science church:
hxxp://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/ ... church.htm
you see the "truth" quote
and if you look at the picture, the church grounds are shaped just like the box, and if you follow the light beams to where the fairy is you'd end up there at the commons
here are some pictures from the church that have elements of the image:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/catabell/5 ... otostream/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/catabell/5 ... otostream/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/catabell/56043758/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/catabell/5 ... t-1190657/
follow the fairy out to where she is holding the gem
if you google earth the address is 175 huntington avenue
i really like this armchair hunting, but i'm sure i'm not ever going to be in boston (it is beautiful!)
so stay tuned, (lol) for my charleston hunting, i've been there once and did a fast tour of cthree's white point gardens and fort sumter and sullivan's island, and it doesn't look like i'll be going back down there, so i'll post some ideas i had and some pictures, ok?
slappybuns
i forgot to mention, that i really think the "all the letters are here to see" is for John Hancock's signature on the Declaration of Independence plaque.
i don't think i stressed that part before.
shecrab
I think we're getting too far afield here with this image and Boston, Slaps. Though I truly appreciate your dogged determination!! It's amazing and helpful!!
However--I don't believe the 'truth' quote on the Christian Science church is close enough, nor most of the architectural elements, especially when we had images from Trinity that were spot on. I mean not just 'close' but exact. The courtyard at Copley is also more like the collar and cuff designs; there are "stairs" and "water" there, and Xenophon and Thucydides as well. There is also a "middle section" and a "green tower of lights" (or VERY close to it,) there. The elements are closer and more alike in Copley than in the Commons, though the Commons is tempting for other reasons. However, "all the letters", the Black Falcon, the Paul Revere reference, the coliseum, "metal walls" and "lit by lamplight" are elsewhere. So what to do? I feel like I've seen every square inch of that city in photos--there are over 100,000 of them on this internet thing of ours--and I swear I've been through most of them!! LOL....
Our trouble is that EITHER that casque WAS buried in the BPL courtyard, and is now gone, or in the OLD Copley square and is now gone, or we're so far off base we are in the wrong city altogether (I don't think we are, but.....Google "Chateau Frontenac" in Quebec for a peek at what I mean!)
I'm not planning to travel to Boston anytime soon either--though it might be a possibility in the summertime, if no one else digs it up before then.
Until then, I'm sort of tapped out on this one. I can't wait to see what you got in Charleston, though!
Note: I WILL be traveling to Louisville KY on Feb. 25-27--so if anyone believes we have something to look at there, I can take photos.
Trohn
shecrab wrote::
I think we're getting too far afield here with this image and Boston, Slaps. Though I truly appreciate your dogged determination!! It's amazing and
Note: I WILL be traveling to Louisville KY on Feb. 25-27--so if anyone believes we have something to look at there, I can take photos.
*lol* Need I chime in. Hopefully come spring I can have someone dig me a hole.... we'll see.
shecrab
Okay, I'm going to stir things up from the bottom, and let the mud settle where it may.
I've been doing some digging...figuratively, of course. And I came up with this startling image.
Now, this is the famous St. Louis Gate in Quebec City. And before you get all weird on me about this image and Boston, let me say I'm a big proponent of Boston--but there just isn't ONE place we can pinpoint as to location that hasn't been revamped, or remodeled--and we cannot seem to agree on a location within that city. So I went and looked elsewhere based on a couple of things I'd remembered about Canada.
And found the gate above.
This little picture postcard shows the gate as it still exists--nothing has changed. Nothing has been remodeled or redone. If we still use the verse (V 3) that we've been using, there are a few more things that also match up:
(1)
A green tower of lights.
All the lighthouses in Quebec--along the river--have
GREEN LIGHTS.
This might be the green tower of lights we've been looking for all along--Canadian lighthouses. You have no idea how startled I was to find this out.
(2)
In the middle section
The city of Quebec is divided into an Upper and Lower section. And there is a "middle section"--the terrace along the river.
(3)
Near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls
The Coliseum in Quebec is the place the NHL team played, in the years 1972-1995. Official name now, Colisee Pepsi. Metal walls? Yes.
(4)
Face the water, your back to the stairs
Quebec's Lower and Upper cities are connected by sets of "neckbreaker" stairs. All facing the water. You can do this at many points along the water's edge. In fact, the stairs are rather well-known and famous.
(5)
Feel at home
I'm not yet sure about this...but Quebec city is one of the most immigrant/visitor friendly places in Canada, despite it being in Quebec
province
, which has never been overly friendly to the English-speaking tourists. It was literally the ONLY place in French-speaking Canada I felt at home during my visits there in the 70's, at the height of the Separatist Movement.
there might be any number of other interpretations of this line, however. One might include the Chateau Frontenac--a spectacular place along the river, in full view of the stairs, and the water. It is a luxury hotel, where you would indeed love to 'feel at home.' Also, all along the promenade in front of this area, the buildings are called "maisons" which as we all know means "home."
(6)
All the letters are here to see
This is the thing that got me started on this tack...the LETTERS. I thought--"letters = post office." Where is a Post Office important? Where can you see the Post Office from anywhere in the city? Where is the Postmaster himself a person who greets tourists along the fortification wall?
Quebec.
The Post office's clock tower is an integral part of Quebec's skyline.
(7)
Eighteenth Day, Twelfth hour
I dont' know. This is so iconic with Paul Revere. HOWEVER....I remembered also that during this same war that Revere was an essential part of, one man by the name of Benedict Arnold decided to try to escape to Quebec. so maybe there's some connection there. Or perhaps in the 7-years war. Or maybe soemthing else entirely.
(8)
Lit by lamplight
Again, many possible interpretations. I have no clue yet.
(9)
In truth be free
This was easy enough: Quebec province is the only Canadian province that has tried to secede and become independent. The Quebec legislature began pressuring the Canadian government for its freedom during the years between 1980-1982, right around the time the Secret was being written and the casques were being buried. So that could be the reference there.
Now this leaves two very significant parts out: The Xenophon/Thucydides reference at the beginning of the verse, (for which I have no direct connection) and the latitude/longitude numbers in the image. However---the lat/long numbers can be "close" enough. Quebec City's lat/long is 46-71--instead of the 42-71 of Boston. So....look closely at the 2 in the cuff...if you really really look at it, you might get an 8 or a 6 out of the swirls as well as a 2. And Quebec's Latitude goes from 46-
49
--so the numbers actually may or may not be out of range.
There is another oddity in that picture: the numbers in the round window frame. And that diagonal 'slash' mark--you can sort of see it as 1791--which is the year that Quebec City was partitioned off from other parts of Canada. (A very significant year in the city's history.) There's that number down by the flower and sphere on the bottom right--note that there is a 22 there. The Citadelle in Quebec is home to the "Van Doos"--which is an anglicized name for Vingt Deux, or 22. Google for more info on the 22.
Okay, that's enough for now.
I know this will probably make Scottrocks pretty happy, as it sort of goes along with what he's been saying about the Canadian casque...but Scott, it's not Toronto. LOL....
Let me know what you all think. You said you liked new ideas! So here is one to consider.
regulus
sounds interesting! Good Job!!!
scottrocks7
This sounds likely. I always thought this was the image for the Canadian Casque. Even though I thought It was Toronto the thing above all else that made me think this is that I think the Maple Leaf on the Canadian flag is hidden in the flowers.
Another building that looks alot like the box image is the Frontenac Hotel in Quebec City. For now I will assume that your image matches the box image. The thing we have to do now is look for park identifiers. Most likely the bird and the window are clues to the park possibley the ferry coming out of the box may also be. I will do some checking on the Canadian version of Google and see what I can find.
The window is likely a pond or something.
We need to eliminate the 15 rows down to the ground verse as for a match to Quebec City to before we go for New Orleans.
shecrab
Unknown:
We need to eliminate the 15 rows down to the ground verse as for a match to Quebec City
Unsure what you mean here....that line is from a different verse.
fox
Interesting indeed. Keeping up with all the progress via my cell phone sure makes posting replies difficult. Keep up the good work guys
scottrocks7
If you look at the very first entries in the Verse 2 thread they talk about a place in Quebec City that may fit that verse. That needs to be investigated.
While the Canadian could be anywhere it is most likely in one of 5 cities: Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax Nova Scotia and St. John Newfundland. The reason I think one of these five cities is the place that has the Canadian Casque is because there are clues in the images or verses that at least with some streatch of the imagination point to one of these cities. It is also possible though I do not think so that Sault Ste Marie may have the Casque. It is possible that the shadow on the neck line could be the two pointed tip thing on the water front. As a practical mater it is unlikely Preiss went to Newfundland. It is hard to get to there are no direct flights from the U.S. I do not think and it is a 7 1/2 ferry ride just to get there by land and that goes to basicly noplace. To get to St. John that is a 15 hour boat trip followed by a 90 minute drive. I do not see any clues that even remotely point to westren Canada.
I think based on all the clues the Canadian casque is either in Quebec City or Toronto. The box image is likely one of three things: the Image that was found above, the Frontenac Hotel or Casa Loma in Toronto. The wall around the Frontenac is not teethed though. Based on all we have seen Preiss liked to burry casques in large parks. For these two cities the parks that could fit the verse are The Plains Of Aberham in Quebec City and High Park in Toronto. Another reason not to totally eliminate Toronto just yet is that I got vage references to Thucydides and Xenophon in toronto. We need to make sure that the neck line is not a clue to Sult Ste Marie.
I thik that Verse 3 goes with this and I think the thing that ties it too that is the Greek connection. Two other Verses that might match are Verses 2 and 10. The reasons for 2 are stated above as for Verse 10 it would not be unlikely that a park in Quebec would have a sign about Indies Native. Both possibilities need to be investigated.
boogieman
scottrocks7 wrote::
If you look at the very first entries in the Verse 2 thread they talk about a place in Quebec City that may fit that verse. That needs to be investigated.
I thik that Verse 3 goes with this and I think the thing that ties it too that is the Greek connection. Two other Verses that might match are Verses 2 and 10. The reasons for 2 are stated above as for Verse 10 it would not be unlikely that a park in Quebec would have a sign about Indies Native. Both possibilities need to be investigated.
Just so you know, it really has all been investigated. Two years ago a friend went to Newfoundland to hunt and had to helicopter in. I was up his butt for info. No one has come up with any evidence as yet. Post what you find, it will be read.
digger7
I've been looking through a book called,
Great Buildings of Boston, A Photographic Guide
by George M. Cushing Jr. and on page 90 is a picture of the William Lindsey house which is now part of Boston University. It doesn't have all the elements of the castle in image 11 but it does have some. It has the correct crenelation as well as the building to the left of the crenelation but not the tower in the middle or the tower to the right. The address is 225 Bay State Road and it can be seen on Google street views. It is not a perfect match but it is pretty close plus it is in the right area as it seems to be not too far from Copley square. And as an added bonus, according to the text underneath the picture it used to be known as "the Castle"
slappybuns
here's a picture of it digger:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/488088109/
i liked boston university for awhile because of the sphere on the grounds and the eagle that they had there, but that was b4 i got stuck on the commons, with John Hancock's signature (all the letters are here to see)
lol, not giving it up........yet
hmmm, i just saw where they have an observatory also......
digger7
thanks, slappy, good picture
fox
Still keeping up on cell phone so let me apologize in advance for being unorganized. I thought we agreed on the castle a few pages back. I think it was a beer house or something. The tower was exact with offset windows and all.
shecrab
Well, we did and we didn't...I mean, we agreed to agree--but nothing ELSE could be agreed on with any certainty. Same ol' same ol'.
shseverin11
I've been following this thread but I don't recall a beer house. Which building is the one that has the offset windows?
Ringo
I think the beer house is the National Lampoon Castle. If not, am I at least correct that it's a building at Harvard? Or did I mis-read that theory? I've swallowed a LOT in only a few days of following this so I appologize if I got this wrong.
boogieman
Unknown:
From shseverin11- I've been following this thread but I don't recall a beer house. Which building is the one that has the offset windows?
boogieman wrote::
Thanks shecrab. I've looked at that sight soooo many times in the past. Even mentioned this one at Park Plaza Boston. I never realized that it was two blocks from Copley Square and one block from the Boston Public Gardens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Park Plaza boston.
Ringo
Thanks Boogie:
I like that photo. I've spent hours the past few days digging flickr for simply photos of Boston trying to find such a sight.
I've also been digging through for photos of plaques at historic sites. You've probably read some of the ideas I keep bouncing in with, I'm trying to find photos that can support any of these... I don't care if I end up wrong, but a photo speaks a thousand words as they say.
By the way:
Does anyone know of any photos of the murals at the BPL? I SEEM to remember their being statues in there as well. My memory is proving me wrong in a few places though. The BPL website has some photos but not of the artwork I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that could be at least similar to the fairy in image #11. The fairy in image #5 looks like one of the fairies in the fountain of the great lakes near the Chicago Art Muesem. I think the Fairy in #11 looks familiar, but it could be triggering the memory of any fairy I've seen and may not really be something I saw in Boston.
shseverin11
Thank you for reposting, Boogieman. My hubby and I would like to go for a long weekend in Boston in March. I'll definately put this on the list of places to visit.
boogieman
Be sure to check in before you go. With Ringo bringing in some big enthusiasm to this hunt, I'm sure we'll have some big requests for you.
Trohn
Ringo wrote::
Thanks Boogie:
I like that photo. I've spent hours the past few days digging flickr for simply photos of Boston trying to find such a sight.
I've also been digging through for photos of plaques at historic sites. You've probably read some of the ideas I keep bouncing in with, I'm trying to find photos that can support any of these... I don't care if I end up wrong, but a photo speaks a thousand words as they say.
By the way:
Does anyone know of any photos of the murals at the BPL? I SEEM to remember their being statues in there as well. My memory is proving me wrong in a few places though. The BPL website has some photos but not of the artwork I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that could be at least similar to the fairy in image #11. The fairy in image #5 looks like one of the fairies in the fountain of the great lakes near the Chicago Art Muesem. I think the Fairy in #11 looks familiar, but it could be triggering the memory of any fairy I've seen and may not really be something I saw in Boston.
I posted the mural link of the Muses (All of them are there)
- they suposedly created the 'letters (literature))
At the foot of the Grand Staircase, above the Courtyard.
shecrab
Ringo wrote::
I think the beer house is the National Lampoon Castle. If not, am I at least correct that it's a building at Harvard? Or did I mis-read that theory? I've swallowed a LOT in only a few days of following this so I appologize if I got this wrong.
Here's the Lampoon castle:
It is at Harvard, on the outskirts, sort of. I think the most accurate representation of that box castle was found in the Park Plaza hotel near Copley Square, however.
Just a note on Harvard. They don't have Greek societies. They have no fraternities or sororities. They
do
have a coliseum--Harvard Stadium--which is a very good representation of a Roman coliseum, but does not have metal walls. I searched thousands of photos and websites about Harvard, but came up with exactly nothing that would lead me to any place where a casque might be. That's not to say there ISN'T a place there, but if there is, nothing came out of my searching. I don't think the casque is at Harvard.
I'm actually wondering about Quebec, now. We
know
it can't be at BPL--because of the extensive remodeling at the courtyard. We are iffy on Copley Square. And no one has bought my theory of South Boston, where "all the letters" are the streets. And no one bought my theory about North Boston either. So unless someone comes up with something we haven't hashed and rehashed a hundred times, I'm looking for alternative ideas.
Trohn
shecrab wrote::
[
We
know
it can't be at BPL--because of the extensive remodeling at the courtyard.
We are looking for where it was buried in 1981 - whether it is there or not today is
an additional challenge.
Follow the clues and where they lead, so be it.
We have found exactly two spots with Thucydides and Xenophone.
One was Cleveland - One is BPL.
I am not willing to leave BPL for another spot unless the named Greeks are there.
boogieman
I agree Trohn. It's all about having eyes on the ground. There's enough in the image to keep us in Boston and around copely. How could you not love this place for the casque? Right now, it's most important to find from where we take our five steps from. I think all 12 verses have the starting points in the first few lines. Certainly v4 and v12 do.
shecrab
Trohn wrote::
We are looking for where it was buried in 1981 - whether it is there or not today is
an additional challenge.
Follow the clues and where they lead, so be it.
We have found exactly two spots with Thucydides and Xenophone.
One was Cleveland - One is BPL.
I am not willing to leave BPL for another spot unless the named Greeks are there.
Don't misunderstand...I'm not saying it WASN'T there, I'm saying we know it isn't there NOW because if it was, then it's gone.
slappybuns
boston common looks to be exactly "5" blocks from BPlL
Trohn
slappybuns wrote::
boston common looks to be exactly "5" blocks from BPU
The courtyard is exactly five steps from the side walk.
Ringo
Another idea that I like:
Notice that the line in Verse 12:
Fence and fixture
Central too
The use of "too" NOT "to". Too means "also". Although the photograph of the Chicago find showed that it was roughly in the middle of "fance and fixture" as someone pointed out in a thread relating to the Chicago find the fence and fixture were also central within the picture. "Central" had a double meaning. "Look for the fence and fixture in the center of the picture" AND "the casque is in the center of the fence and fixture." I THINK BP chose his words VERY carefully.
Now the line in Verse 3:
In the middle section
I do like the play on words idea someone suggested that if Harvard was the site Harvard is in Middlesex county making a rhyming scheme. however this could be relating the castle image that we can't identify which is "in the middle section" of the painting. The box image is a nice frame for an image within an image. Also to father my theory note that the castle is a similar relief style of the fence in "Castle Hat". Perhaps, the "green tower of lights" we haven't clearly identified is part of the castle which would REALLY echo the Chicago finds lines of verse.
--------------
Also:
I dropped an e-mail of questions to my Uncle who happens to be an American History teacher. He used to visit the sites he teaches about in class to be a better teacher and because he teaches history for a reason [he loves history]. He's also a Red Sox fan [my whole family is], so he has visited a lot of Boston history on his way to ball games. My grandparents both went to school in Boston, and as soon as I can get a phone call with them I plan to wrack my Grandfather's brain around the "Tower of Green Lights" question. Of course if the "Tower" in question didn't exist yet in the 1940s my grandfather will be of no help there. My grandparents and I don't talk often as I have no phone at the moment. I only call them once every few weeks from my Aunt's house. SO: If anyone thinks of a question about particular landmarks that they want me to get a description of what they MAY have looked like at one time. PLEASE get them to me over the weekend. I won't be calling until probably Monday. I've also sent an e-mail with the Tower of lights question to my grandfather but he's VERY slow to answer e-mail. He has ten kids and over 30 grandkids e-mailing him almost daily. He gets flooded and prefers us all to call him. I doubt he will answer my last e-mail and will want to just talk about it instead.
I've also thought about trying to dig through family photos of Boston trips from 20 years ago. Who knows what may spark a memory right? That will have to wait for a trip home I won't make until the summer time ["home" being a 5 hour ride].
Ringo
"All the letters
Are here to see"
Ok, oddball thought from left field here:
What if this refers to a Pangram? Maybe BP noticed a plaque that happened to contain a panagram in Boston? Or a plaque itself contained all the letters of the alphabet, not neccessarirly in one sentence? A writer or editor would be quicker to spot a quirk like that than any of us. Think about it, when is the last time you spotted a piece of writing as short as appears on a plaque and it contained all 26 letter? I realized this thought because I was searching for my copy of a book called "Ella Minnow Pea" today. The story revolves around a town who worships the creater of the most famous panagram "The Quick Brown Fox Jumped Over the Lazy Dog" and has a monument to him. It's a very quirky fun book [letters slowly fall off and citizens who use the fallen letters become banished]. Anyone who likes quirky books and language should read it. I just laughed so hard when I thought "what if this was in Boston"?
forest_blight
Unknown:
The use of "too" NOT "to". Too means "also". Although the photograph of the Chicago find showed that it was roughly in the middle of "fance and fixture" as someone pointed out in a thread relating to the Chicago find the fence and fixture were also central within the picture. "Central" had a double meaning. "Look for the fence and fixture in the center of the picture" AND "the casque is in the center of the fence and fixture." I THINK BP chose his words VERY carefully.
My theory is that "Central" refers to the "Central Line" train. Shadowrunner's photo shows that the casque was not buried between the fencepost and the fixture. It was several yards away where the two lines of trees would have intersected - in the middle of the grassy area. My impression is that it was like this:
==========================$====
$
- - - - - - - - - - - - + =
- =
- =
- =
- =
- =
- =
- =
- =
- =
...where the + is the casque site, the -'s were trees, $'s are fencepost and fixture, and the ='s are fence or wall (not drawn to scale).
boogieman
Ringo, here's something to ponder, something that has been bugging everybody for years. The letter/road map that looks like a "G" to the right of the fairy. We are almost sure the the hair outline of the woman represents the outline of Boston from overhead (go to
www.local.live.com
to see it). Anything stand out for you that might be our "G"? The old Garden maybe? A map or the first letter of a landmark, maybe?
edit: hey FB, your diagram kind of looks like a v.
forest_blight
Unknown:
hey FB, your diagram kind of looks like a v.
Funny, I intended it to look like a horse with a jockey...
Trohn
forest_blight wrote::
Funny, I intended it to look like a horse with a jockey... :P
giddy up!
Ringo
boogieman wrote::
Ringo, here's something to ponder, something that has been bugging everybody for years. The letter/road map that looks like a "G" to the right of the fairy. We are almost sure the the hair outline of the woman represents the outline of Boston from overhead (go to
www.local.live.com
to see it). Anything stand out for you that might be our "G"? The old Garden maybe? A map or the first letter of a landmark, maybe?
I had read a post from someone wondering if the hair was a map of the harbor, which I like better than the skyline theory. It doesn't seem to fit the harbor though.
Although the skyline theory would closer resemble the Cleveland find with the outline of the building. I know I keep looking for connections, but the more I try to find a pattern between the two known finds the more I'm thinking there may NOT be a pattern AND on purpose so that once a few were found the rest wouldn't just topple in succession. Think about this from a business sense:
BP probably hoped for some good media coverage each time a casque was found. This would hopefully lead to more book sales. Now if a story came out that detailed the first and second and even third find, such stories would probably involve interviews in which the finders would describe in detail what they did. Such stories could lead others to the remaining locations faster and allow less time for more book sales.
I'm still hoping for a decent pattern of similarity, and I'm going to continue looking for one. I think the outline of buildings may be too close to the Cleveland find though.
I'm hoping to have lunch with my father tomorrow. He is a pilot and until last year had been flying in and out of Logan on a frequent basis. He has talked about how pretty the skyline is from the air coming down. I'll throw the theory by him, as I think he as a pilot probably has a much better grasp on that than I could.
As for the "G" shaped crack in the wall:
I have been hoping it would turn out to be a street map or path in a park. It resembles a "G" but I didn't take it to be a letter. In a way it would hurt to be a road because so much has changed in Boston due to the "big dig." It could have meant something and we would have a hard time discovering what that something is.
shecrab
Unknown:
As for the "G" shaped crack in the wall:
I have been hoping it would turn out to be a street map or path in a park. It resembles a "G" but I didn't take it to be a letter. In a way it would hurt to be a road because so much has changed in Boston due to the "big dig." It could have meant something and we would have a hard time discovering what that something is.
Look at a satellite pic of the Charles River. It bears more than a passing resemblance.
Ringo
I just did and I DO see what you mean. The darker part of the crack in the wall looks more like a mark on the wall than a part of the crack. Being thicker and darker. It doesn't feel like it "fits" with the rest of the line. Not drawing any conclusions just making an observation.
slappybuns
the boston athenaeum door looks like our skirt, three panels, and look at our spots and circles on the door:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/antydiluvian/134809886/
and maybe the "CASTLE" in the picture just stands for "KINGS" chapel
look at the bird on the "Declaration of Independence" plaque in boston common:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/budil/1326273015/
slappybuns
since the quote comes from walpole to horace mann, why don't we start right there at the state house statue of horace mann? the pedestals(in the image) could be the bases of the mann and webster statues.
and look, you'll be right there at boston common
and maybe "his" is paul revere, so walk toward granary burial ground where he is buried
then find the right spot (in the commons), like a bench, close to the declaration of independence, lol
shecrab
Wrong Horace Mann, Slappy....
There was a Sir Horace Mann who Horace Walpole wrote to...the quote in question was written in 1774. The Horace Mann whose statue is in Boston Common wasn't even born until 1797.
The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveller from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra.
Letter to Sir Horace Mann (1774-11-24)
slappybuns
dang! i didn't even think of that ck
but how about this in the commons too:
the "oliver wendell HOLMES" path, named for his wooing the schoolmistress----feel at home
syntheticdreams
the beacon hill eagle monument by the state house (feel at home??? who knows)
hxxp://www.boston.com/news/globe/gallery/120707/
the stone pattern sort of reminds me of the one around the window.
and the top of the monument has a bird on it :
hxxp://mass.gov/?pageID=mg2terminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=State+Government&L2=About+Massachusetts&L3=Interactive+State+House&L4=Inside+the+State+House&L5=Statues+in+Bronze&sid=massgov2&b=terminalcontent&f=interactive_statehouse_statue_beaconhill&csid=massgov2
forest_blight
Now that's interesting. I can't find any other photographs of the ground immediately surrounding the monument. Can any Boston locals go there and take pictures?
shecrab
And take a shovel...I'll bet there's at least two feet of snow on top of it.
Ashburton park seems a very good place to hide a casque--it's out of the way, yet central--it might indeed hold more information than we've been able to unearth in other locations!
boogieman
Oh yeah! Kinda reminds me too. Are you near Boston SD?
syntheticdreams
yeah i do live near boston. i ll probably be able to go and take some pics next week either st patricks day or good friday since we have those days off
cant say ive ever been there before in all my years of living in boston
slappybuns
hey dreams
you like the beacon hill area? are you going to check out other areas?
are you familiar with the commons or the public garden? are you taking a poker?
i'm wondering if that bird and walking stick isn't just a word play for freedom trail,
bird---------free as a bird
walking stick---- walk, trail
freedom trail, or
bird walk...............board walk, lol
or....
i've seen 2 statues with walking sticks, benjamin franklin at old city hall:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/493167343/
and edward everett hale in the public gardens
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/gene_simon/570722908/
and his has "man of letters" and he wrote "Man Without a Country", which fits in with the immigration stuff
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/e ... le_statue/
welcome to the hunt, dreams
Trohn
slappybuns wrote::
hey dreams
you like the beacon hill area? are you going to check out other areas?
are you familiar with the commons or the public garden? are you taking a poker?
i'm wondering if that bird and walking stick isn't just a word play for freedom trail,
bird---------free as a bird
walking stick---- walk, trail
freedom trail, or
bird walk...............board walk, lol
or....
i've seen 2 statues with walking sticks, benjamin franklin at old city hall:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/493167343/
and edward everett hale in the public gardens
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/gene_simon/570722908/
and his has "man of letters" and he wrote "Man Without a Country", which fits in with the immigration stuff
hxxp://www.storyofboston.com/articles/e ... le_statue/
welcome to the hunt, dreams
Thing is... it really isn't a walking stick... It is a 'T' stand.
slappybuns
Trohn , what is a "T" stand?
i understand it could be for Boston (T) Tea Party...that's all been said b4, but i don't recall anyone mentioning it as a "T" stand.
forest_blight
Mention "T" in Boston and people understand it as a reference to the transportation sytem:
hxxp://www.mbta.com/
Trohn
forest_blight wrote::
Mention "T" in Boston and people understand it as a reference to the transportation sytem:
hxxp://www.mbta.com/
Absolutely no question!
Its on all of the signs.
Makes it unique to Boston.
slappybuns
i guess it was the word "stand" that got me...lol
i was thinking there was some kind of place that sold tea or something
i know about the "T" stops,
sorry
shecrab
Unknown:
Makes it unique to Boston.
Well, er...not exactly. The subway in Pittsburgh is also called The T.
In fact, there's a rather amusing story about the subway name. If you know anything about Pittsburgh, that is. It's probably not very funny if you write it out and you're not familiar with the dialect that Pittsburghers speak (called Pittsburghese--really.)
They have a pronoun in common use there sort of like "ya'll" in the south: it's pronounced
yunz
. (you-uns.) Also, they pronounce "downtown" as "dahntahn." When the subway was built sometime in the 80's, they held a city-wide contest to give it a nickname. The winner was "The T", which they call it now, but there was a favorite entry that did
not
win:
the YGDT
. This stood for "yunz goin' dahn tahn?"
I got this story from a lifetime Pittsburgh native named Jane. If it's not true, blame her.
(She lived dahntahn.)
slappybuns
rihel! you have doubts about boston?
rihel
I only have doubts because no images have ever been linked to Boston in a very strong way. I can find something that looks like a T in every city, and I could certainly find a castle or a hawk/falcon/bird of prey in any city as well. A globe-- almost any city. A green tower and something we think is a coliseum can go with almost anything as well.
However, Boston is still the leading candidate for me. I am curious about the edge of her hair looking a lot like the edge of the wharves in the North End of Boston. It isn't exact by any means, but it is pretty close, even that, if this makes sense, three-pronged bit of hair seems to line up with a 3-pronged wharf. I would LOVE to see old aerial photographs of the North End to see if maybe it hasn't changed over the last 25 years and would be even more striking back then.
But I am also worried about that 112 thing. It also jumps right out and would seem to point somewhere else-- and let's face it, the idea that 71 is in that triangle shape is a stretch.
shecrab
Apologies for posting this under Image 2 at first. I have moved it and deleted that one.
Though I agree that the Cleveland image was pretty cut and dried with the image of Ohio, the sillhouette of the Terminal Tower and the columns, fountain and wall for the Cultural Gardens, I think that may be the ONLY image where there is such unambiguous matching. Surely no one can doubt the Houston solve--Preiss confirmed the location1--but there is not ONE SINGLE image in that picture that even remotely says Texas let alone Houston. So I think you're waaaay off base by suggesting that Image 11 does not match with Boston or that you need to find more solid confirmations. I feel it's utter nonsense to imagine first that there is some formula that will apply to all the images/verses, and that one will need something more than what is already uncovered in this pairing.
Take it as you wish---but we're going to have a major disagreement on this.
The patterns in the plaza blocks on Copley Square are the same as on the woman's collar.
The falcon is black in the painting--and so what if you can find falcons or hawks in other cities ? There are lots of things that appear in other cities--globes, subways, parks...this is not a relevant point. The fact that Boston has a Black Falcon Avenue ought to be a confirmation that you're in the correct city. Not just falcon--BLACK falcon.
The perch is a T. Yes, other cities have a subway called The T--Pittsburgh is one--but Boston's subway is known as the T. No one ever suggested this was an image of Pittsburgh.
The box castle looks like both Trinity Church AND the Park Plaza Hotel.
The globe is just that--a Globe. Like the Newspaper.
42 and 112 are not the ONLY numbers in this image. There is also 71, 33, 122, and others. 42 & 71 are the coordinates for Boston.
You are correct that the Letter streets and the Black Falcon are in South Boston. My error.
Thucydides and Xenophon's names appear on the library frieze. They also refer to Boston in a quote from Horace Walpole--and since Boston is indeed north of New York, it seems that the quote pretty much pinpoints the city and the verse match.
The ends of the woman's hair do indeed look like an aerial view of the wharf area.
The falcon's claw looks like the aerial view of the vicinity of Fort Indepence and yes, "Castle" island.
The crack in the wall to the right of the woman looks like and aerial view of the Charles River.
The verse phrase "with metal walls" could easily refer to Old Ironsides.
Harvard's stadium looks like The Coliseum.
These things, and others, aren't vague--they aren't simply calling a dome a "tower," or Xenophon and Thucydides "Greeks." They are more specific by a very good margin. The sheer weight of the evidence is, to me, overwhelmingly pointing at Boston. I have not seen any solution to this image or verse that fits any other location better or is more specific. Do they point to location we can dig in? Not to one I agree with--but if I lived closer, I'd be scouring the area in the South side for more clues and matches--and not dismiss the evidence as "vague."
So disagree if you wish--you certainly have that privilege--but I can't begin to imagine why you would.
1He has also confirmed that there is at least one casque in Canada and definitely one in St. Louis. I think it's folly to ignore these things as some have.
rihel
Do not think of my concerns about Boston to mean that I think these new solutions are rock solid (they are often even more vague). Let me address several of you points.
1) I haven't seen an image that matches those patterns. A bunch of dark and light squares isn't enough to get me excited. If you show me the triangle and square symbols lined up in the same general area, then you have my attention
2) I can get on board the Black Falcon idea. However, there are several Black Falcons in major cities, and WOW, one of them is St. Louis, a city that is supposedly confirmed
3) The perch is a T.... well, the window is a circle, the globes are spheres, and there are squares and triangles in there, too. This is too generic, unless the T sign looks like the perch... hmm, maybe it does?
4) The castles don't match up, unless there are better pixs than what i have seen. Not even as a composite.
5) There is a Globe building in -- WOW-- St. Louis. (I use this as an example only because St. Louis is supposedly confirmed. If I can find both a Black Falcon and a Globe Building in St. Louis with a 30 second search, what other confirms can I get with vague data like this?)
6) The lettered streets only go up to D.
7) Th. and Xenophon on the library are interesting. But, guess what? There is a Xenophon buried in ST LOUIS! Again, using vague clues, I hit a big city, and it took 30 seconds.
the wharf is striking to me, but not perfect. I grant that. I would love to see older pictures to see how much it has changed.
9) The claw is backwards, not a deal breaker, but I can probably find a ton of images that are claw shaped, probably even in St. Louis.
10) I have to look at that crack again.
11) Harvard Stadium does look like a Coliseum. But, Coliseum can mean lots of other stuff, too. I personally like Boston Garden, which vaguely looked like a Coliseum, too.
And, I do live here, and I will be scouring the South Side and the North End based on these clues. It will be a good excuse for me and my wife to explore the city some more. But I am not going to be convinced until I snap a photo of that silver pattern, or see those symbols all lined up or see a fountain with the sidewalk shaped around the window.
shecrab
rihel wrote::
Do not think of my concerns about Boston to mean that I think these new solutions are rock solid (they are often even more vague). Let me address several of you points.
1) I haven't seen an image that matches those patterns. A bunch of dark and light squares isn't enough to get me excited. If you show me the triangle and square symbols lined up in the same general area, then you have my attention
Unknown:
2) I can get on board the Black Falcon idea. However, there are several Black Falcons in major cities, and WOW, one of them is St. Louis, a city that is supposedly confirmed
Unknown:
3) The perch is a T.... well, the window is a circle, the globes are spheres, and there are squares and triangles in there, too. This is too generic, unless the T sign looks like the perch... hmm, maybe it does?
Unknown:
4) The castles don't match up, unless there are better pixs than what i have seen. Not even as a composite.
Unknown:
5) There is a Globe building in -- WOW-- St. Louis. (I use this as an example only because St. Louis is supposedly confirmed. If I can find both a Black Falcon and a Globe Building in St. Louis with a 30 second search, what other confirms can I get with vague data like this?)
Unknown:
6) The lettered streets only go up to D.
Unknown:
7) Th. and Xenophon on the library are interesting. But, guess what? There is a Xenophon buried in ST LOUIS! Again, using vague clues, I hit a big city, and it took 30 seconds.
Unknown:
8) the wharf is striking to me, but not perfect. I grant that. I would love to see older pictures to see how much it has changed.
Unknown:
9) The claw is backwards, not a deal breaker, but I can probably find a ton of images that are claw shaped, probably even in St. Louis.
Unknown:
10) I have to look at that crack again.
Unknown:
11) Harvard Stadium does look like a Coliseum. But, Coliseum can mean lots of other stuff, too. I personally like Boston Garden, which vaguely looked like a Coliseum, too.
Unknown:
And, I do live here, and I will be scouring the South Side and the North End based on these clues. It will be a good excuse for me and my wife to explore the city some more. But I am not going to be convinced until I snap a photo of that silver pattern, or see those symbols all lined up or see a fountain with the sidewalk shaped around the window.
Look at the plaza in front of Trinity Church and look at the patterns on her collar:
A black falcon WHAT in St. Louis? Is it a street? A buildling? What is it?
I agree it's generic, but it's also specific. Look at the picture of Trinity again. Note the circular window at the top. The checkerboard pattern on the buildling itself (like the checkerboard on her robe, like the stand the globe is on)
You won't get an argument from me here about this castle...but it's not that it's a perfect match, it's a CASTLE. And there is a CASTLE ISLAND, and the Park Plaza hotel is called THE CASTLE, and the Harvard Lampoon staff is quartered in a building called THE CASTLE, and a building at Boston University is called THE CASTLE and there are castle turrets like the ones on the box on both Trinity church AND the hotel.
But there is not a BOSTON GLOBE newspaper in St. Louis is there?
Wrong.
See below.
You mean Xenophon Wilfey? Yes, that's true---is there a Thucydides there also? Or just the one Xenophon? And who IS Xenophon Wilfey anyway--and why would he be more important than a literary reference from Horace Walpole? (And is he north of a Thucydides? And does that mean we take five steps in the area of St. Louis?) I'm sorry--this is almost funny.
I'm sure there are lots of Mitchells buried in cities other than Milwaukee--or lots of Socrates's buried in cities other than Cleveland. As an argument, this doesn't have a lot of merit, and as a logical refutation, it contains none at all.
In 30 years? Probably not very much. It's not that there is any exact match with the hair--it's just that both resemble each other. They are both squared-off at the ends, and of varying thickness over any length. Why would that matter? You can't bury something on a wharf.
I have looked at numerous maps of St. Louis--and I don't recall seeing anything that matches as well.
you'll need to rotate it slightly.
True. As does the courtyard at the Boston Public Library. But HArvard stadium REALLY looks like the coliseum, and the Boston MArathon runners go right past it. (those who pass...)
We found a monument, but not a fountain. Any reason it has to be a fountain? Because the verse just says "face the water, your back to the stairs..." not that the water must be fountain water. Boston is a seaport, after all. And the "stairs" could be the famous "Golden Stairs" that immigrants used to climb from the wharf to the city when they first arrived in their new home. (feel at home?)
I hope you do scour the city. I would love to see some better pictures of Copley's plaza, of the Black Falcon wharf area, of the Coliseum and the Marathon route...and the Old South Church at night--I understand it has a green tower, and it's lit up with a green glow at night.
And if I get to St. Louis this year, like I have planned, I'll do the same.
rihel
Good! Now we are getting somewhere.
Well, I messed up about the letters in Southie, that's for sure. And some of those marks on Copley look familar to those in the picture, but it is kind of hard to tell from the photo. And yes, it could be a monument or a fountain or a big hole, or whatnot. What really strikes me about the circular window is the asymmetry of the design around it. That strikes me as important in any convincing site, but maybe not. And I might add that the wharf in Boston could indeed have changed a lot in the past 30 years, given that they have practically dug apart all of this city already in the Big Dig, for which Ground Zero was right in that region. Chris Columbus Park is right on the waterway, for example, and it was rehauled in recent time and that could have led to the breakup of old wharf sections. They moved a lot of stuff around; it was pretty ugly.
My point about St. Louis is that in 30 seconds, I can find things to make me believe (not really, of course) that the image represents St. Louis. There is a Black Falcon Circle in St. Louis, there is a building called the Globe Building, there is a guy named Xenophon buried in some graveyard in St. Louis, and I guess there might be a Thucycides there, as well, or maybe in some other part of St. Louis, if I searched hard enough. Maybe a reference to his book, or maybe a reference to a Greek historian, etc. That was what I found in 30 seconds. People on this forum have been spending years looking over images and clues. And there is a bit of groupthink that goes along with that. Once an idea reaches a certain amount of momentum, everywhere you look, you start to see confirmers of pet ideas, and everyone joins in, adding additional confirmation upon confirmation. The result is that a n00b like me walks in for the first time, and I have to stratch my head at some of the things that are called solid clues. Imagine if I started with the idea that St. Louis was the place for image 11. I might start to go, hey, here is a pattern of stuff that links this picture and that verse to St. Louis. If I head in that direction long enough, with enough people jumping on board, I will get more and more confirmers. And it will be a lot harder for me to break out of that line of thinking once I and others started down that path.
This is especially true when wishful thinking is added. I would LOVE for the casque to be in Boston, so I can directly search for it on weekends. So groupthink + confirmation bias + wishful thinking is a dangerous brew for getting at the real answer. So if I question a lot of stuff, sorry, but I have to keep all of those dangers in mind when thinking about this problem.
rihel
Shecrab,
By the way, another thing that strikes me as odd is that the verse seems to be one of the vaguest in terms of pointing to a specific spot. I haven't seen much speculation on what 18th day, 12th hour could mean other than the Longfellow poem, which sounds good to me. What I mean is, it seems like it could also be a clue for finding the right place to dig once you are in the spot, but I just don't have any good ideas.
shecrab
This verse makes a lot more sense if you look at it in terms of the city rather than trying to find another city in the verse itself. These verses, being essentially riddles, are deliberately obscure--this we know. However, if you read back through the thread on Verse 3, you'll see that it's been touted as other locations--not just Boston. Same with Image 10. Salt Lake City held a lot of people in thrall for a long time.
But...none of the verses and images are really specific! That's the problem! The thing that drove me mad about this particular verse is the line "IF Thucydides is North of Xenophon..." because that, logically, is half of a syllogism. IF X, THEN Y. But IF NOT X, then the logical inverse is NOT Y! couple that with the ambiguious pronoun referent, and you have a real problem. I expounded on this one a while back.
If T is NORTH of X then take five steps in T's direction--
If T is NORTH of X then take five steps in X's direction--
If T is NOT NORTH of X, then DON'T take five steps in T's direction? That would mean you would take five steps in any direction EXCEPT T's.
and so on (you can find this discussion under Verse 3)
Back-engineering these images from the solutions we know, we can see that the Cleveland solution was really specific in the verse and the image both. The wall is depicted almost exactly in the painting:
The names Socrates, Pindar and Appelles were inscribed on that wall. The bowl of the centaur's hat and the fountain on the painting wall were both exactly depicted. You'd have had to live in Cleveland to know that the building in the trees was the Terminal Tower--it's not that precisely shown. The latitude and longitude were there. But
I'm FROM NE Ohio
, and frankly, I'd never even heard of the Cleveland Cultural Gardens! I probably drove past them a hundred times and never knew they existed until I got this book!
But there were parts of the verse that never got explained: couplet was one. I don't believe they ever found out what that referred to.
Then you look at the chicago solve, and you have to wonder how the heck they ever got it. On the basis of two parts of the whole painting the city was located, then the rest of the painting was almost ignored. They used the verse instead--and even then, it wasn't exact because there was a missing tree.
Fence and fixture
could have meant almost anything! Yet they found it.
My point is, that it has nothing (or little) to do with 'group think' as you call it. It's concensus up to a point--then it's finding confirmations for what you believe and trying things out. I think we have had most of the concensus with Boston for image 11--and just about everything we've found seems to confirm what we think--except for the exact location of the casque. I'm willing to give up the "letters" being the street names. I think "all the letters" could mean a lot of things: a post office, a printing shop, an alphabet plaque, a literary society, a library, a collection of letters, a can of soup....anything. I think once we get into position, we'll know it. 18th day, 12th hour, lit by lamplight--might indeed be Revere, but maybe something else as well: perhaps a ritual, an antique building with a clock, or maybe the 12th hour is 'riddle code' for straight up--as a pilot might use. (12 o'clock high?) Or maybe "Revere" is the name of something NOT related to
Paul
Revere, i.e., a thing that is "revered." (As in Church--holy--etc.) That masonry around the circular window WAS found...it's the circular pattern around a monument on Beacon hill behind the state house:
hxxp://www.boston.com/news/globe/gallery/120707/
.
"In truth be free" is a quote, but not from anything that showed promise. It's kind of hard to paraphrase this, and I'm just not sure what it means.
There are a lot of towers in Boston--green and otherwise. There is even a "Green Tower," at MIT and it's known for it's "light displays" outside. (In fact, there is a whole strange thing about light at MIT--MIThenge.) The words "five steps" have been speculated upon. I don't know so much about this verse, but I do believe the
image
itself points incontrovertably to Boston. The only link to Boston in the verse originally was the Paul Revere reference, and if that goes, the connection to this image is far more tenuous. Still, it seems to be the best match we have.
As I said, (I know I'm long-winded) I am not against new ideas...but I don't wanna throw out the baby with the bathwater, either. Ignore what you think is group-think and research it yourself--but read back through the posts and see what others have done too. it's helpful for all of us.
Kuh-Lai-Bah-Ti
Rihel--
Do yourself a MASSIVE favor regarding the imagery-- look at the obvious. Also, this is a puzzle, which means that there may LOOK like there is more than one solution, but in reality there is only one. Believe me when I say that it would make ZERO sense to make St Louis have an Irish theme in its painting. French would be more along the correct lines, if anything. Apart from that, while you are correct in saying that the clues are ambiguous, they are only so to a certain extent, just enough to cast doubt on the actual solution, which is why they're so easy to discover. I thought that the Houston verse pertained to Des Plaines Illinois, because the words in it EXACTLY describe a certain area of the city. In Milwaukee, Pere Marquette park is the spitting image described by Verse....whichever verse it is. These are very possibly completely wrong.
rihel
Yes, I am trying to look at the obvious. And I see that there is pretty much nothing obvious so far, except for the Th. and Xeno on the wall of the library. More about that below. For example the Beacon Hill Monument. The pattern on the floor doesn't really match up with the picture in the image, at least not in the photo posted. I saw that in the thread, which I read front to back before I posted anything, but it doesn't really look like it. It is slightly like it, but nothing more. I am going to look at it when I get the chance, and I'll try to take pix and post them.
It's funny that you think this is a Celtic theme. It really underscores how hard it is to pinpoint what is obvious. I thought the Peridot was supposed to be Italian. That might make sense for the North End, but I would have thought Irish would have made more sense for Boston, too. The image is only vaguely Celtic, in the way that people get vague Celtic rune tatoos on their necks or arms. I actually thought the imagery is Masonic, which of course fits in with Boston well, too. Lots of Masonic stuff here. Anyway, it is funny you think this is a Celtic theme because I kind of thought it was Norse, like a Valkyrie or something like that. See how hard it is to interpret this stuff, and how different people bring different things to it? Which one is most like the author's idea?? Impossible to say.
Now, about the Th. being North of Xenophon. I agree that the If statement's logic does not indicate that you should do the opposite if the answer is false. In fact, it wouldn't indicate what to do at all. I take it to mean that "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon, then you are in the right place and you can start. If it isn't true, then find the place it is true and then start". Now, I understand that maybe it means that Th. is above Xenophon, like in a typical map, but it might be a coincidence, too. After all, wasn't Thucydides and Xenophon's names on that wall in Cleveland? These guys seem to go together like peanut butter and jelly-- that is, if you invoke one name on a monument, you invoke the other one, too. So, would I be surprised if tomorrow I am walking around on Harvard's campus and look up and see those two names starting at me? Not one bit, but of course, it would be great if Th was more clearly NORTH!
I called it groupthink because the process of finding confirmers gets dangerous once the group has convinced itself that it is right based on flimsy evidence. This happens in science all the time, too. you get a little bit of data, kind of crappy data, but data nonetheless. It suggests something. Then you get a little bit more crappy data, and it confirms what you started thinking earlier. Then another lab publishes some weak experiments that kind of suggest the same thing. Now you think you are on to something, and you start looking in the literature. And, suddenly you find some unexpected results in some other work, and you think, "Aha! I can explain that with my line of thinking." There is a confirmer. Eventually, you start seeing confirmers everywhere, and you and others become totally convinced that this is a true solution to a problem. Then one day, someone comes along with a GREAT experiment, and it conclusively proves you and everyone else wrong. This happens all the time -- crappy evidence + crappy evidence + crappy evidence + crappy evidence starts to equal in our minds GOOD evidence, but the reality is that crap+crap+crap equals crap. And I will be clear-- this has happened to me, and it will happen to me and my colleagues in the future, too. And that is because it is easy to see evidence is crappy after that great experiment comes along, but a lot harder to see it when it is all you got.
But, to continue the science example, I think calling image 11 and verse 3 as indicators for a Boston casque is a good hypothesis. I guess we can test it, too, by going out and looking for something like the "Cleveland wall" slam dunk. Find that, and it would be like that great experiment that strongly supports the hypothesis. (Of course, not finding it is also possible, and then we can't conclude anything at all. This only means that we must be on the lookout for other city possibilities, too.)
And finally, finally. Using the examples of what's been solved is a good way to proceed. I do think it amazing that they found the casque in Chicago-- but at least the two clear-cut images in the painting gave them the fortitude to know that they were looking in the right place. That just doesn't exist yet for the Boston casque, in my opinion. Maybe this weekend will be nice here for a change and I can start looking.
shecrab
Unknown:
I called it groupthink because the process of finding confirmers gets dangerous once the group has convinced itself that it is right based on flimsy evidence. This happens in science all the time, too. you get a little bit of data, kind of crappy data, but data nonetheless. It suggests something. Then you get a little bit more crappy data, and it confirms what you started thinking earlier. Then another lab publishes some weak experiments that kind of suggest the same thing. Now you think you are on to something, and you start looking in the literature. And, suddenly you find some unexpected results in some other work, and you think, "Aha! I can explain that with my line of thinking." There is a confirmer. Eventually, you start seeing confirmers everywhere, and you and others become totally convinced that this is a true solution to a problem. Then one day, someone comes along with a GREAT experiment, and it conclusively proves you and everyone else wrong. This happens all the time -- crappy evidence + crappy evidence + crappy evidence + crappy evidence starts to equal in our minds GOOD evidence, but the reality is that crap+crap+crap equals crap. And I will be clear-- this has happened to me, and it will happen to me and my colleagues in the future, too. And that is because it is easy to see evidence is crappy after that great experiment comes along, but a lot harder to see it when it is all you got.
As I and others here have said, no one is against new ideas or new information in any way. However, you have missed a point: if you're going to call evidence crappy, then you should be prepared to say why without doubts it is crappy,
and replace it
with evidence that is NOT crappy. Simply calling it crap is non-productive, and saying it's also crap because more than one person believes it is neither productive nor logical. You don't, q.e.d., have anything better from what I've seen. You have 'found' the name Xenophon in St. Louis. That's a lot like saying you found a ruby in Texas. You also fixated on only one numeral--the 112--which could be anything, including longitude--but has
not
been proven to be either that or something else. Perhaps that could be the one thing that confirms Boston--maybe the number 112 is on a building, a streetcorner, a T stop, a zip code, a street sign.
Until a casque is found, ALL EVIDENCE, whether it looks good, arose from group concensus, arose from an individual epiphany, or any other source at all, is speculative. What proves the evidence not to be speculative is the finding of the prize it led you to, or a definitive reason why you can't retrieve said prize (as in the Houston find.)
What is known is known. We have all done research here, some in person, some on the 'net. No one has unearthed anything yet except what was found in Chicago and Cleveland, and the information from Houston--and that casque is likely unretrievable now since all landmarks are now gone. We've found literary references that are unmistakable, photos of what we consider to be good matches and lots of circumstantial evidence to point to a particular place with this image--and what has been suggested alternatively has only matched one or two points, then peters out. The only ideas that have consistently yielded matches and confirmers were for Boston. This is not 'group think' at all--it's concensus. There is a huge difference. And as I've said before, if you
have
better,
show
better before you dismiss something out of hand. All we ever said was that is was a "good hypothesis" as you put it. No one is claiming victory yet.
(Also...yes, this is an Italian, not an Irish theme--but it
still
doesn't make sense for St. Louis.)
rihel
All what you say is fair. I just think it is useful to categorize our data into things that are really solid and things that are OK, and things that are not so hot. Importantly, those determinations need to be done without considering the rest of the data -- that is, we should never say that a piece isn't very good, but let's bump it up a category anyway because it is at least consistent with the other data. I find this kind of exercise useful insofar as we can make independant calls about each piece of data, and it gives a good indicator of what level of evidence will be required to make us doubt it. Of course, consistency of the data would be important, too, but we could in principle simultaneously have two good pieces of data that point to different cities.
In a way, this is what the forums do already, to an extent. For example, Thucydides and Xenophon. They appear on the Boston Library together. That is a great piece of evidence. Now, what would it take to shake my belief in that data? Well, if you showed me a Thucydides and Xenophon in another city AND Thucydides is unassailably North of Xenophon, then I am going to rethink that data HARD. My evidence for Xenophon in St. Louis? Well, that would be in the total crap category (but isn't it intriguing that Xenophon is a semi-common name in modern times?) unless we see another grave with Thucydides sitting North of him. Then we would have to start rethinking.
So, how do I categorize the other data? Well, the harbor outline I put it in the good category. It isn't a 100%er, but it isn't totally silly, either. What would make it stronger? An old aerial photo of Boston that is a better match. The reference to 18th day, 12th hour as a Paul Revere or Longfellow reference. That straddles the good to great category, I think. Importantly, Longfellow does use 12th hour to refer to midnight within the poem, that is a big boost. But, given the nature of these cryptic verses, I would be hesitant to say that I think this is in the bag, either.
Almost everything else I am putting in the sketch category (somewhere between good and total crap). The castle, the patterns on tiles, the bird, the globe, etc. They just aren't of the same quality that I would like to see. Now, this exercise was useful to me, because it tells me where some more work should go. It also told me where good starting points are. Maybe this was all obvious, but it is nice to somewhat formalize it.
The reason I spend so much time thinking about this idea of quality of evidence is that, while looking through the forums, I saw lots of brainstorming and suggestions and idea-generation. The forums are AWESOME at doing that, and that is an important step. What the forums do a little more poorly is evaluate the evidence. Too often people would post some picture that makes little sense (or maybe even some OK sense), and either a bunch of people would say that was a nice find, the end, or people wouldn't comment on it at all, leaving the idea unevaluated forever. Of course, this isn't always the case by any means. Lots of ideas, but sometimes those ideas are left completely unevaluated by the community. And the community should have some kind of consensus about the quality of their data at all times.
shecrab
Unknown:
The reference to 18th day, 12th hour as a Paul Revere or Longfellow reference. That straddles the good to great category, I think. Importantly, Longfellow does use 12th hour to refer to midnight within the poem, that is a big boost. But, given the nature of these cryptic verses, I would be hesitant to say that I think this is in the bag, either.
I agree with most of what you've said here. And thank you for saying what I said was fair! I tried to be, and also non-confrontational--and that was harder!
Anyway, yes, I will have to agree about crap vs. good evidence here and how it gets evaluated on the forum (or any forum.) It is no end of frustration to me that things are not logically evaluated--before they're accepted. For instance, the huge amount of work done by Sonoran and Turtle is a perfect example: the fountain they found wasn't likely installed until 1990, and the "Isle of B" meaning the Island of the Bridge is going to fall also, because that particular bridge wasn't built until 2002--it replaced two bridges that were there previously. Little things like that are easy enough to check. If you think a ferry boat is a clue, find out FIRST if the ferry boat was oeprating when the book was
written
. I've found and discarded a lot of evidence that way.
And speaking of bridges, you say:
Actually, there is a
Longfellow Bridge
in Boston, (Beacon hill to Cambridge) also. I have to wonder if 18th day 12th hour refers in any way to the bridge, or anything associated with the bridge. Wiki has some photos; the main piers look like Viking ships, and the bridge is also known as the salt and pepper shaker bridge. Maybe that is the reference to Longfellow--instead of Paul Revere? I don't know. This, I admit, IS vague--but intriguing. Perhaps it is meant to lead us to Cambridge instead of Boston?
Just speculation at this point.
As for the Greeks, there haven't been many references to the two of them together except on the wall in Cleveland, and in the quote by Mann or Walpole. That seemed very significant to me. It gave us two options--Boston or New York. The "north" part is to me the part that is arbitrary--not the fact that the names associate with the city. North can mean (1) above (overhead), or (2) in a rising direction or even (3) in an earlier ORDER in a list (i.e., B is "north" of P in the alphabet.) And the IF drives me nuts.
What I dont' think is smart is negating good ideas with bad ones. And unfortunately, this happens a lot. I won't hang onto an idea just because it's group concensus. I do think also that when someone says "nice" to a piece of evidence that is or is not great, it's being more polite than accepting. This forum has a rep for being very polite for the most part, and that's enforced here. And I dont' disagree with that attitude. There have been posts on here that caused my jaw to drop and my head to shake slowly back and forth and I've erupted in gales of laughter at some things--but I'm grateful no one can actually hear it!
rihel
Shecrab! This has been a useful discussion for me, because it lets me in on how others are thinking. I can see we are mostly on the same page. I knew we would be.
I'm very glad you picked up on the Longfellow Bridge, because that occured to me when I mentioned both Revere and Longfellow. It is an old bridge, distinctive, and worthy of more attention. There is also Longfellow's house in Cambridge. And Cambridge is full of distinctive monuments. Funny how I've lived here for 10 years, but only now am I paying attention to the fancy words and statues that adorn so many of our old buildings. I was excited yesterday, because I saw all these busts of classic writers, like Cicero, etc. and I was sure I was going to see those famous Greeks-- but alas. They were on a path I walk to work every day, and I just noticed them because of this book.
I also found a statue downtown that ends with the quote, I'm paraphrasing-- in a hurry now-- "liberty in truth". Could that be "In truth, be free?" Today is a gorgeous day here, and I am hoping to sneak away from the lab for a few hours to get some primary photos of some of what we've been discussing here. Will post when I figure how to upload photos directly (maybe I'll link to Flickr?)
shecrab
Excellent find!!! Liberty in truth---could be, could be!!
You can't post photos directly. You have to post them to a hosting service, then use embedded code. Or, as you say, link to Flickr.
I find these discussions quite useful for brainstorming. I am very glad you didn't misunderstand my intent and take offense!
forest_blight
I've really enjoyed reading this - keep it up, guys!
rihel
Sorry for the delays in keeping my line of thinking updated. I have been about the city of Boston quite a bit and have some pictures to share, mostly confirming that I haven't found anything.
I visited Copley Square and found that the fountian, and all of the triangle and diamond sidewalk embeddings, were all built post-90s. I looked again at the Church trim, and it doesn't seem to match the picture in the book very well. Looking at the original book, it seems the globe stand has faint circles within the dark areas. This matched nothing that we saw. The only thing about the Trinity Church was it has asymmetric windows (like the castle) facing a little inner garden in the back. I took some pictures, but nothing else about it resembles the castle. Xenophon and Thucydides are definately still on the Public Library, that was no surprise. Interestingly, the statue of Science, holding the globe, is no longer the bluish-green that made the ball look so much like the image in the book; they cleaned them up and now they are bronze colored again. A close look also failed to match the texture of the globes in the image, at least by my wife's eye. (I wanted to see differently, but must concede it wasn't too good.)
There were some wrought-iron fences with fancy designs in this area that are reminiscient of the pattern on our lady's dress, but nothing was a match to me or to my wife. I feel this must be the kind of thing that design will match, though, when we someday find the right spot.
Moving on the the North End, which is Boston's Italian district. I was hoping that 5 steps in the area of his direction might have meant, "Take 5 steps in the North End (the AREA of his direction.)" Unfortunately, the Copp's Burial Ground has six steps leading up to it, and the North Church (Revere's two if by sea) has more. Within Copp's Burial Ground, there were five steps leading to another part of the cemetary, but 1) it is a cemetary and 2) there were no other clues that matched up there. It is too bad, because from the hill there you can very easily "Face the water." There are many more public parks there that are off the beaten path a little more, so they need to be investigated on another day before I write this section off for now. Maybe I can apply the same area of his direction to the South End, since we don't know to which person that instruction refers.
Moving on to the MIT area. The Green Building (the tower) is there, and there is at least one building as you cross the bridge that has the -up-and-down castle ramparts (does that make sense to everyone?), but no other aspects. Not much else caught our eye there. Longfellow Bridge didn't get us excited, either.
I checked out the Beacon Hill area near the capitol. The Mary Dryer statue has the "liberty in truth" quote, and there were lots of intersting things to see there. The statue was erected a long time ago, but nothing else was too striking vis-a-vis the images in the book. Lots of wrought-iron work, but no matches. I looked at the Eagle Pillar that people have pointed to before. The area was closed off for the day, but from the vantage I had, it didn't appear to have any iconography from the book, either. Wrong bird, the bricks around the pillar don't have the pattern around the window, etc.
Up next-- The South End. Castle Rock, the alphabet letters, etc. Many small parks there, not much information on-line about them, a good place to hunt next.
Sorry about the lack of photos for now, but I'm working on it. And with mostly a whole lot of nothing, it is on the backburner.
shecrab
Nice work, Rihel...and thank you for clearing up some of the Copley square images! They were, unfortunately, some of our best matches.
If your next forays don't pan out, it will be time to consider other latitudes/longitudes as the location, rather than Boston, IMHO.
Good detective work!
fox
other than Boston? how? oh yeah, this is for the image, not the verse. but, if this isn't bean town's image, what is?
scottrocks7
me again!!
I am not trying to start this argument again but I have never thouht this was Boston. I think this is the Canadian Casque. I think we have the right verse matched to this image and if I am sucessful in working with the city of St. Louis I think we can confirm the Image and verse match to St. Louis this image and New York.
But for now the main reason I think this is Canadian is because I think the Canadian maple leaf is hidden in the flowers.
If this is the Canadian image then there are three places based on the images clues that stand out to me.
One is Sault Ste Marie this is possible because the neck line could be the two tip canope on the water front. I do not think this is the case because outside of the neck line I have found no other clues in either the image or verses that matches.
The second is Toronto this is a possibility because the image in the box could be Casa Loma. This is the most likely location. I do not remember what I did but I googled Thy and Xen and got references to Toronto and St. Louis. The STL references seened to be recent. High Park is the likely park if this is correct.
The Last possibility is Quebec City. We found a similer looking building to the box image there.
It is possible that this image and Image 3 could be Canadian. The armor is the key to finding the park that this image goes to. I will seek outside analysis of the armor soon.
Sorry to say fox but Boston may not have a casque.
shecrab
fox wrote::
other than Boston? how? oh yeah, this is for the image, not the verse. but, if this isn't bean town's image, what is?
I don't know...and I don't have any info yet. However, we do know that there is more than one lat/long in the image, so it might be at another combination of numbers--and that's going to be tough to decide.
It matches some elements for Quebec, but since this is the Italian gem, it will be on a border, or North/South Dakota, or Washington DC, according to the list in the book. Quebec doesn't really fit those ideas.
I'm just speculating right now. I do not think the castle matches Casa Loma in any way. No more than it did for Salt Lake's Mormon temple.
scottrocks7
Washington DC sounds very likely. I think one of the Smithsonian buildings looks similer to the box image. I do not know if the neckline is a clue or not. The winfow is another key clue. It is likely that this is some sort of walkway around a circular object in the correct location.
The words in truth be free would certinly make sense for D.C.
And to be honest High Park in Toronto did not look at first blush like it matched either the image or the verse.
BP said one casque was in Canada so the first thing to do is nail down the location of image 3. If it goes to Kill Devil Hills then this is Canadian if this goes to Halifax then DC should be looked at closely.
2fast4u2c
Probably nothing, but I see coordinates that put me right smack in the middle of Williamsport, PA. Looking at pictures and whatnot, I haven't found much that would serve as any sort of confirmer. The only things that I have found are:
The globe on the front of the Williamsport Sun looks like it may have the same texture as the globes in P11.
The James V. Brown Library has names on the side of the building much the same as the Boston Public Library. The only picture I have found that is good enough to see the names only shows the left side. Thucydides and Xenophon are not on that side...would be interested to see if they are on the other side.
shecrab
scottrocks7 wrote::
Washington DC sounds very likely. I think one of the Smithsonian buildings looks similer to the box image.
The Castle at the Smithsonian bears a
very slight
resemblance, as do all castles, to the box castle. That said, I have not seen any ONE castle that nails it, so maybe there isn't one. A castle would be something that isn't easy to change or disguise, and probably wouldn't disappear even in 30 years.
The more I think about it, the more I think it isn't
supposed
to nail the box image--but only
suggest
that there is a castle nearby. And that leaves us open for a lot more interpretation.
slappybuns
2fast4u2c,
i think Preiss told someone there wasn't one in Pa.
scottrocks7
He said he did not rember burring one in Philadelphia. That means none is in Philadelphia
scottrocks7
Another thing Shecrab the box image may exist but it may not be something that confirms the city but rather the area of the casque. Prehaps it is or was part of an amusement park or something. Given the mythalogical/fantasy theam of the Image this should be considered.
shecrab
Absolutely correct, Scott. I have no argument with that theory at all. In fact, it ought to be further explored.
cw0909
hi i contacted the library and this is the answer
Hi CW,
We checked the front and side of the building this morning. Thucydides and Xenophon are not among the names.
Thank for you using Ask Here PA! Please contact us again if you need further assistance.
Beth Schetroma
Information Services Manager
James V. Brown Library
i do like the idea about fairy castels maybe at near some amusment park
the castel in pic does remind me of the coloring book type
scottrocks7
If the box image is not a city identifyer then it is likely in the park as prehaps something on a mini-golf course or in the park prehaps a play area.
fox
I am still sold on our box castle representing (not exact replica) Bostons' Park Plaza Castle. I feel that BP manipulated parts of the real building to create our box castle. Remember, Chicago's Water Tower is not and was never a windmill.
The Park Plaza Castle has everything that our box castle has. It has the slanted roofline:
It has the "castle walls":
and MOST importantly, it has the tower with offset windows:
By all means, keep looking...and if our box castle is found how it is depicted, I will be the first to say "Great Work!"...but until then...............
shecrab
I don't think anyone disagrees that this is probably the
closest
match, Fox, but so far, it's the ONLY thing that matches any of the imagery in the P, except metaphorically. I mean, yes, there's a "Boston Globe" and a "Black Falcon Avenue and Wharf," but what else have we been able to find? Not much. I have gone over and over and over this image looking in every conceivable corner of Boston (via the 'net) for anything that suggests stuff, but all I can get is connections that don't narrow the location at all. There is a Castle Island--and the bird's claw looks like the aerial view around it, and the crack in the wall sort of resembles the Charles River branches, (rotated slightly) and we've got a sidelong reference to Paul Revere's ride, and the girl's edging on her dress is like the blocks where Copley plaza is, etc. etc.
I'd love for this to be in Boston, and I'd love to find out where. But...as time goes on, we're exhausting all our best image/verse matches and image/location matches. I was really disappointed to find out that the Copley Square courtyard inlays were not done until the 90's. To me, that was a huge confirmer. The castle not so much--there were a couple of good ones for that. And the rest? It's just speculative.
Xenophon and Thucydides are also good confirmations, but there are mentions of them in other places also, and that doggoned ambiguous verse is no help at all!
And though it's true that Chicago's water tower was never a windmill, the depiction of the fence and the tower (without vanes) is exact. Ditto for Cleveland's wall, columns, Terminal Tower, etc. And since it IS exact, I have to believe that there is soemthing in P.11 that is also. But what? That's the $64K question--and it's not answered by the Park Plaza.
I'm just at a loss here. Perhaps that castle is being given way too much credence. But if we
don't
give it any, then what DO we use to match up with a location marker?
fox
True, Cleveland's wall, columns & lion fountain were EXACT but...if Sir Egg found himself in the Greek Cultural Gardens looking for THAT spot, he would have never found it. The fountain was not on the wall and the wall was not enclosed with the columns. These 3 things were in different parts of the park but were "put together" in the P. The wall was exact...period, The fountain was exact...period, The columns were exact...period, as are (in my humble opion) the Tower with offset windows, the castle wall, etc. Why not use an exact likeness of Park Plaza Castle...only BP knows. I think this may be BP's Boston building (ie..Chicago Water Tower + attachments, Cleveland's Terminal Tower & the very hazy but exact Milwaukee building) confirming the city alone. Remember, neither the Chicago casque nor the Cleveland casque were anywhere near these buildings. Maybe...and I am holding my breath
... once we find the correct park/location in Boston, we will find exact likenesses of other images in this P...ie, bird statues, orbs, etc.
Given the huge clue of X & T coupled with the end of the V that can pretty much only be speaking of Revere's last ride, I don't see how Boston could NOT be a casque location.
shecrab
Well, that's what I thought too....but nothing has yet panned out.
That's the problem.
fox
That sure is a problem.
I am going to go back and revisit an idea I posted long ago about Pandora's Box. When Pandora foolishly opened the box, all the evils escaped before she could close it. All that was left in the box was Hope which she later released. Time to start looking for Hope streets, parks, ect...again.
boogieman
Hey Fox, have you read this post about the Boston Jubilee? You must schroll down to read the first part of the article, which was wriiten in 1872. I've even discarded this idea some time ago but maybe someone else can find something in it.
hxxp://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... ref=slogin
cw0909
another therory on image 11
i was looking at the frame around her skirt and thought
those symbols looked a lot like signal flags..link
hxxp://www.anbg.gov.au/flags/signal-flags.html
so i started looking for coast guard stations and found one at
ie pre. reference to i think boston for this image
STATION BRANT POINT
10 Easton ST.
Nantucket, MA 02554
then i started looking in Nantucket, MA to see if something
looked like the image looked at these links
hxxp://www.mass-vacation.com/find/event ... evt_id=371
hxxp://www.tripwiser.com/trip_planner-M ... 1ac8
then i discovered the sandcastle link and looked at image some more
and thought it looks like she is in an observatory link
hxxp://www.discoverourtown.com/MA/local-21839.html
this observatory comes with an outdoor solar system model
the spheres around her, and she maybe this person ...link
hxxp://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95aug/ ... html
so far ive not found images to compare to the image, and have not
gone over the verse
i also found one for canada for sandcastles
hxxp://www.greatervancouverparks.com/HA ... les01.html
hxxp://harrisand.org/sand_sculpture_photo_gallery.htm
i have not checked this area for anything that looks like image
i know all this hinges on the castle being a sandcastle
the places on Nantucket look to be just blocks from each other
almost forgot one more link to a sandcastle event, have not looked at that
area at all
hxxp://www.ci.imperial-beach.ca.us/inde ... 87B6DED%7D
scottrocks7
Hope springs eternal
Here is another possible match to the box image Chateau Laurier in Ottawa. I must say it is closer then any other thing we have found thus far. It also looks like it could fit verse 3 sort of. I will keep looking and let you know of aything eles I find.
Another interesting area is the Rideau Canal area certainly could go with lit by lamp light.
I guess we can disagree on this one going to Boston.
fox
Chateau Laurier in Ottawa
I have to admit...that is a decent match...even has the offset windows on the towers....
but...
still think this is a better match...
Park Plaza Castle in Boston
fox
boogieman wrote::
Hey Fox, have you read this post about the Boston Jubilee? You must schroll down to read the first part of the article, which was wriiten in 1872. I've even discarded this idea some time ago but maybe someone else can find something in it.
hxxp://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... ref=slogin
This must have been posted while my comp was down and I was following the board on my cellphone which couldn't do the links. WOW, that is really cool. Just another thing to make you go hmmmmmmmm
fox
Just a thought here. If the rectangular outline on P1's robe is indeed a representation of GGP in San Fran, than couldn't our P11 lady's robe hold a park map as well? Yes, I Know...... city parks are usually rectangular
. There is a nice rectangular park (which I believe we focused on for a while) not far from Copley Sq called the Boston Public Gardens. While scouring the 12,000+ pics of this park on Flickr, I came across this (
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/ondionais/1688 ... 492618283/
) note the interesting comment posted under the picture.
fox
There are also many of these "rough looking" globes around the park.
animal painter
I have not seen it mentioned yet...that the celestial body to the right of the moon
in image 11 is, no doubt, Venus.
There was a racy novel, "Venus In Boston", originally published in 1849.
It may have the dubious distinction of being considered the first "pornographic American novel".
Being literary, would BP have used this to point to Boston???
shecrab
"those that pass the coliseum"--
"Those" meaning the streets--the streets that pass the coliseum;
"Coliseum" meaning the Park Square Coliseum (no longer there);
So "those" would be Arlington St., Boylston St., Charles St., and Beacon St.
These are the boundaries of
Boston Public Gardens
.
insatiable
shecrab wrote::
"those that pass the coliseum"--
"Those" meaning the streets--the streets that pass the coliseum;
"Coliseum" meaning the Park Square Coliseum (no longer there);
So "those" would be Arlington St., Boylston St., Charles St., and Beacon St.
These are the boundaries of
Boston Public Gardens
.
Wow, good to see you're still at it shecrab!! If anyone will find it it will be you, you just don't give up.
aha the abc streets again! I had used them with the "letters" part of it though.
Good luck!
shecrab
It's good to see you're back!!! I don't know about my ability to find anything---a lot of theories here get debunked--as well as bunked.
Right now, we're just rehashing the usual bunk! LOL.....
animal painter
I have been trying to locate a recognizable granite sphere in the
Boston area for this image. The closest so far is the granite sphere
monument in Quincy, Mass. in front of their city hall.
shecrab
animal painter wrote::
I have been trying to locate a recognizable granite sphere in the
Boston area for this image. The closest so far is the granite sphere
monument in Quincy, Mass. in front of their city hall.
Why look for a big sphere, when the newspaper in Boston is called the Boston
Globe
? Especially since one of the spheres in the image is set in a frame like a globe would be--I don't think it's necessary to find a matching image.
animal painter
Shecrab,
I did think of that, but did not want to leave any "stone" unturned..
since there were several blue granite spheres in the painting...and if
there were a visible landmark to anchor our search....
AP
fox
shecrab wrote::
Why look for a big sphere, when the newspaper in Boston is called the Boston
Globe
? Especially since one of the spheres in the image is set in a frame like a globe would be--I don't think it's necessary to find a matching image.
Gotta love the way you think Ms C...
maltedfalcon
Then take the (not so popular) theory of mine about iconic images and straight lines to the first part of the verse....
The castle hotel is on the same road (straight line, about 4 blocks) as the boston public garden...
fox
I really like your theory maltedsnowman... It works beautifully with my Jackson Square theory
maltedfalcon
Actually it works better with Louis Armstrong park in, the other direction
That also has the voodo queen's house across the street from it,
and if that aint the arm of a zombie, in the painting, I don't know what it is...
forest_blight
I'd bet dollars to donuts it's one of the Loups Garoux (French werewolves) mentioned and pictured on p. 13. P7 (if that's the one you're referring to) is the French picture, after all.
animal painter
I am still not convinced that image 11 is for Boston.
After reading back pages of this thread, I was looking in
Salt Lake City, and found several of these spheres in
front of the Mormon temple.
AP
maltedfalcon
lets continue this over in the p7 thread...
animal painter
Looking for a locally recognizable landmark in Boston for image 11...
maybe it is the "castle" on the box.
There are at least two "castles" in the Boston area that people would know about.
One is the restaurant on 101 Arlington St. (Did it exist in 1981?)
The other is part of Boston University on 225 Bay State Rd.
Here is a map to show their proximity to the Boston Library (Copley Square)
and to the Boston Commons garden.
A
. This is the restaurant. It has two turrets
B
. This is the building that is part of Boston University. It has been around
for many decades.
Any opinions?
AP
fox
fox wrote::
I am still sold on our box castle representing (not exact replica) Bostons' Park Plaza Castle. I feel that BP manipulated parts of the real building to create our box castle. Remember, Chicago's Water Tower is not and was never a windmill.
The Park Plaza Castle has everything that our box castle has. It has the slanted roofline:
It has the "castle walls":
and MOST importantly, it has the tower with offset windows:
By all means, keep looking...and if our box castle is found how it is depicted, I will be the first to say "Great Work!"...but until then...............
That is the Park Plaza Castle AP which I pointed out back on page 48 of this thread {resubmitted below} as well as much longer ago than that. I am still sold that this is our castle.
animal painter
Fox,
Thanks for pointing out your previous photos.
That location definitely has great resemblance.!
AP
forest_blight
For more (and recent) photos of this very interesting building, see my Boston album at webshots:
hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/quantpsy
animal painter
Okay...
I am convinced that this castle is the landmark for Boston
in image 11.
The semi-circle under the globe holder, has the same
checkered motif as the Trinity Church in Copley Square.
Has anyone been able to check out the stone fountain in the
"Third Lantern Garden" at the Old North Church?...(for the circular stone image.)
(Or any other circular stone fountain...in a park)
Also, the statues of Art and Science (at the Boston Library) were recently cleaned...but used to have
this lovely shade of turquoisey-blue found in image 11. (even though the
texture is not granite or stone.)
fox
I like the side by side of the blue lady holding the globe next to our globe. May not be the same thing but it sure looks nice
I really dont see how our castle could be anything but the Park Plaza Castle. I really like your pics FB, especially IMG_2055. I suppose it is a little too late since you are long gone, but did you happen to walk around the castle looking for a perspective that matches the box castle? I am just wondering if this is going to be an exact match {w/ proper perspective} like the Milwaukee building or if it is going to be a specific building with artistic license taken like Chicago's windmill water tower.
forest_blight
Fox - I did walk almost completely around the castle, and there is no perspective that matches the box.
animal painter
The fact that the "castle" contains the recognizable irrefutable elements incorporated
into the image 11 box, is more than coincidental...we may have no need for photographic realism.
AP
animal painter
The checkered semi-circle in image 11 also looks like the motif over
the doorway of St. Leonard's Church at 34 Prince St. near the
Old North Church...(just taking a walking tour of Boston to see
the churches and fountains.)
But there are also plenty of checkered arches on The Old South Church, too,
right across from the Boston Public Library...(Although its arches are not round,
but more "Gothic".)
animal painter
On another image 11 aspect...
If you look at the little fairy holding the jewel, you see an arrangement of
circles on her wing. Looks like a clover. Has this been explained yet?
I am looking for a sculpture or frieze with either a child or fairy or angel
in the Copley Square or Boston common area. There is an angel sculpture
in the corner of the Public Garden...which has her skirt billowing out in a similar fashion.
But that is about all the resemblance.
AP
scottrocks7
I do not think this is Boston either. I hope to get back to work on STL soon if Image 9 turns out to be STL then this likely goes to Ottawa. For now I will go on my own and assume this is Ottawa. If this is Ottawa then the casque is likely in the canal area or the river area near the Chataue that we think may be the box image. If this is the case then the Window is either an outdoor skateing rink pond or fountain and the shadow of the neck line is likely an outdoor canope like what is on the waterfront in Sault Ste Marie Ontario. I am not sure if the ferry with the jewle is a clue but I think the Bird and the globes could be key clues to confirming the area. I will investigate this further on my own and let you know if I find Anything.
animal painter
Image 11 lady has an interestingly shaped cuff on her sleeve.
Does anyone else think it looks like the dome shape that you can
see from Copley Square in front of the Boston Library?
(next to the Old South church)
shecrab
Nice find! I actually like that one.
cw0909
ap nice i had noticed, but couldnt find it, and looked at that
pic like 10 xs, and still didnt see it
fox
That is a nice little find AP. Yes, I'm sure someone will reply that there are domes like that everywhere...but with all of the smaller things being found {dome being last one} around the same area of Beantown..I am thinking it is hard for this P to be anything but Boston.
scottrocks7
This is either Boston or Ottawa. Does anyone know the location of the building frequently showen in The Suite Life Of Zack and Cody. If it is in Boston it resembles the box image. With a little research on Image 9 we can tell if this image is Boston or Ottawa. I will coment more on what can be done to prehaps confirm the location of Image 9 in the appropriate thread.
shecrab
The setting for "Zach and Cody" is supposedly the Tipton Hotel in Boston. HOWEVER....
From Wikipedia:
The Tipton Building itself doesn't exist; shots of the building's exterior are pictures of the
Fairmont Hotel in Vancouver, British Columbia.
The moving vehicles and most people are animated or green screened. The various external shots of the Tipton Hotel along with views from the windows of the Martin's and London's suites would place the hotel in several different locations around Boston. One external shot has the John Hancock Tower close by and another has the Tipton reflected on the Hancock. That would put the hotel in the Back Bay section of Boston. Views from the suites would put the hotel down near the waterfront as the buildings seen outside the window are all near the New England Aquarium. Lastly, in "Birdman of Boston", "Bubba" the hawk (also the name of Dylan and Cole Sprouse's dog), at the end of the show, is seen flying around an open area with a church in the background. That church is the Park Street Church, so that shot would put the hotel right on the Boston Common.
But this doesn't look anything like the box castle in P. 11.
hxxp://www.fairmont.com/hotelvancouver
scottrocks7
Interesting I do not think I have ever been to Boston I have went around Boston twice on I 495 and I went to Cape Cod the year this book came out. I was about 2 2/3 years old we may have went then but I do not rember.
maltedfalcon
animal painter wrote::
Image 11 lady has an interestingly shaped cuff on her sleeve.
Does anyone else think it looks like the dome shape that you can
see from Copley Square in front of the Boston Library?
(next to the Old South church)
That sure is a unique shape, Looks like a match to me.
animal painter
Looking at image 11, I tried to find what feature in Boston would
have inspired JJP to paint the "bubbles".
If you look at Copley Sq. from Boylston St, you see fancy glass street lights.
But from St. James avenue, you see multiple simple "globe" street lights...
which could account for the multiple bubbles.
2fast4u2c
ap,
i've posted this before, but will again because i think it is indeed a clue. Look at the white area in the bird that you just posted. To me it looks like an eagle or some other bird with its wings spread, atop a monument or building of some sort.
animal painter
2fast,
Funny that you should say that...because I have been scrutinizing that
white area, too. It looks too "defined" to be just a highlight. There is
a sculpted eagle with wings spread, over the doorway of a building farther
down Boylston St.
The falcon's tail looks like a silhouette of a building possibly.
AP
animal painter
Forest,
With your library connections, maybe you can find a copy of:
Boston Then & Now: 59 Boston Sites Photographed in the Past and Present
By Peter Vanderwarker, Boston Public Library
Published by Courier Dover Publications, 1982
ISBN 0486243125, 9780486243122
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=mIaA2h ... ry_s&cad=0
Looks like the comparison photos would be helpful.
AP
forest_blight
It's not the comparison photos that would be helpful, but the fact that the "new" photos date to 1980! I'll request the book shortly.
animal painter
Here are some great photos of the entrance to the Boston Public Library...(circa 1970-80?)
The sculptures are still "green". Look at those street lights!! More globes...(that do
not exist any more)
Does that green shrubbery/planter to the right exist now?
animal painter
I would like to know the year this was taken....
Sculptures are still green...
shecrab
That last picture looks to be the year they remodeled Copley Square.
About the time the old fountain disappeared in favor of the new one.
Here's a pic of the old one:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/47391132@N00/421224804
animal painter
Shecrab,
Thanks for the great link to the 1971 photo of the old fountain!
The street lights have a much greater resemblance to the image 11 bubbles !
I am afraid that seeing the demolition of this area has raised the possibility of the
casque already being inadvertently unearthed (if it were buried in Copley Sq. proper.)
AP
fox
AP, it appears that that large green shrubbery planter does not exist any more...at least according to googlemaps street view.
I really do like; however, that when standing directly in front of the BPL & looking N on Dartmouth St, you can see the dome that you pointed out which looked incredibly similar to the shape in P11.
I really still think that this is the correct area for this casque. W/ T & X at the BPL and several visual confirmers...we just have to nail this thing down.
fox
Ok, this may be...nah...it IS a stretch but...could the 2 'things' hanging from our P's lady with the odd symbols on them be something like this?
animal painter
Fox,
The "obelisks" do have a size, shape and positioning, that remind you
of our Lady's "shawl"...even being divided into squares. Were they there
in 1980?
That shrubbery planter seems like it would have been in the right place
from which to see the "dome", and it would have been within "steps"of
Thucy and Xenon. It reminds me greatly of the Cleveland planter... Hmmm
AP
fox
I'm not sure if these were there in the 80's. I just noticed that they did seem similar to the lady's shawl and thought maybe there is more to the shawl then just the symbols on it.
maltedfalcon
I had to go Shawl????
It took me a moment to realize what you are talking about., funny, I just thought she was standing in a keyhole shaped doorway...
shecrab
The obelisks and fountain were built on Copley Square in 1996.
We have already discounted this fountain a couple of times. Read through the back posts in the thread!! Specifically, pages 12, 14, 16.
fox
I never once said that these were THE pillars from the P...just that perhaps the 'shawl' or falcon's 'keyhole doorway' are more than just that in the P...perhaps even representing a real, onsite object "such as" the obelisks of the fountain.
animal painter
Fox,
You once asked if there were another view of the "castle" that more
closely resembled the image 11 pic. Here is one view in which an
offset-window-tower is actually higher than one of the parapets.
(not that we need any more confirmers for the castle in Boston...)
AP
animal painter
I saw that castle view while taking a "walking tour" on Google,from Arlington St. to Copley Sq.
BP liked taking the "tour" approach in Milwaukee...following the streets to his
destination.
While still on Arlington St., I saw something that I am just
throwing out here...
The first object that caught my eye, was this "sculpture" over the doorway of
a building right across from the Park Plaza Hotel. For some reason, the two
"things" hanging down reminded me of the two tail feathers of the falcon.
(Those tail feathers always did look odd to me with their rounded ends.)
Haven't finished my walking tour from Arlington St. to Copley Sq. yet....
AP
P.S. Canada should be just about perfect this time of year, Forest.
Have a safe trip.
fox
AP, no need to convince me about the castle. I can't seem to see what you are referring to in the second picture which looks like the bird's tail. It looks like a bird over the entrance but the rest of the pic is kind of dark. Does that bird over the doorway have a similar tail?
animal painter
Fox,
It looks like two narrow pieces hanging down from the "bird".
Just "freely associating"...When I saw it, it reminded me of the falcon's tail.
It is dark, and I could not find any photos to get a better look.
AP
fox
That is what I figured AP. Do you happen to know what that building is?
animal painter
Fox,
The corner sign of the building says "Davio's" (a high-end Italian restaurant)
But I do not know if it occupies the whole street level.
Davio's address is 75 Arlington St....The "Castle" address is 101 Arlington St.
I added a small photo with the "tail feathers" outlined in the post above.
AP
P.S.
I just checked the address on Google. That building is shared by 20 businesses.
Addison-Wesley Benjamin
Bedford/St Martin's
Bentley Motors, Inc
Boston Foundation
Bushari Group Real Estate - Boston Real Estate
Cape Wind Associates
Davio's - Rated 3.7 out of 5.0
Debt Hero: Boston Debt Consolidation
Family Law Practice-Divorce Attorney-Divorce Mediation
Martin's News
Montage Inc - 6 reviews
Nancy Stracka Interiors, Inc.
New England School of Art - 1 review
Parsons Brinckerhoff
PB Americas, Inc
Pearson Custom Publishing
Pearson Education
Regus - Back Bay
Samuel Adams Brewery
Urban PRIDE, A Community Parent Resource Center
fox
Thanks, will see if I can find a clearer picture. Interesting fact I found while searching... also located in that building, on the 10th floor, is The Boston Foundation.
animal painter
Using very low-tech methods, (a desk lamp and a magnifying glass)
I scrutinized image 11 and found two things to consider.
The first thing is writing on the lower left curve of the stone circle window.
(I will not say what letters I see...as not to influence your ideas)
Second, there is a shadow on the palm of the lady's hand, holding up the lid of the box.
Right side up, it looked like a figure standing on two straight legs. Then turning
it over, I saw a bell. (JJP included a bell in the palm of the lady in Milwaukee's image 10,
probably to represent Bell St. in the vicinity of Lake Park.)
Old South Church has a famous 2020-pound bell in its bell tower.
(There is also a very old bar on Union St. named..."Bell in Hand"...
animal painter
Here are photos of the area in front of the Boston Public Library in 1984 and 1971.
You can see the BPL in the background...The globe lights...the "green" statues.
The old fountain (below) was there in 1982...according to the newspaper article below.
Now the question is...WHERE do you stand with your back to the stairs and
facing the "water"?
AP
Another Awful Urban Space
Boston bureaucrats doubtless believe that people who walk through the city do so with their eyes closed. They are wrong. A recent column, discussing the city's least friendly, most messed-up urban spaces, provoked immediate reaction. People would like to see some changes made. Callers were in complete agreement that the front of City Hall needs some trees, even if only three or four clumps; some benches too. One described the plaza as "a barren wasteland," another as "inhospitable," and yet another as "a hot plate in summer; an icebox in winter." An English visitor asked why chairs couldn't be rented out in summer on a concession basis - 25 cents an hour - as in London's Hyde Park. A humorist asked: "What fountain?" A landscape architect, associated with the firm that designed City Hall, defended the overall plan but felt the subway entrance at Government Center station could be made more attractive. But the "flaw" that drew the greatest criticism was one that hadn't even been mentioned in the column, but should have been; a place that author John Updike once called "that cold slab in the heart of the Back Bay." Updike's reference was to Copley Square.
Roger Mulford, who recalled the quote, also recalled that the Copley Square design was the result of a 1965-66 public contest. He suggested that the runner-up entries, all of which were exhibited at the time at the Museum of Fine Arts, should be re-examined. From the very outset, Back Bay residents have hated the "new" Copley Square, completed in 1970. The late Dan Ahern, who headed the Back Bay Assn., called it "a sunken plaza, paved in asphalt," adding that it looked more like a parking lot ("and is too often used as such") than a square. It certainly breaks almost every rule laid down by William H. Whyte, expert on small urban places, about what constitutes a friendly public space. The Square is sunken and surrounded on three sides by barriers, making easy access impossible. It hasn't enough trees. The wall, or berm, along Boylston street effectively hides the square. The asphalt is unattractive. The fountain is in the wrong place and for the most part doesn't operate As a friendly, welcoming, open space, Copley Square is a disaster. It can't even be policed easily. . . .
— The Boston Globe 9 August 1982
boogieman
fox wrote::
AP, the fountain in your post was there in 82'. The one fox used as an example (below), was put there in 96' and is there today. Maybe more pics of the old fountain can help us confirm for sure. Not sure.
animal painter
Boogieman,
Here is one more photo of the old fountain.
(from 1971 according to the photographer)
You can see the wall on the right that is referred
to in the newspaper article from the Globe on
Aug. 9, 1982. BP would have seen all of this if he
were in Boston around 1982.
forest_blight
Here's a picture of Copley Square from 1980, from Vanderwarker's
Boston Then and Now
. These two-globe lights could be found all over the city at the time. The square looks to have been completely paved over.
shecrab
Unknown:
Now the question is...WHERE do you stand with your back to the stairs and
facing the "water"?
RIGHT HERE (this is the side of Trinity church):
animal painter
Forest,
Yeah, you got the book!
Do they have a good photo of the front of the Library?
(Or any other pertinent shots...)
AP
forest_blight
Out of all 3 books I got, that's the best view of Copley Square. I really don't think this is the spot, Thucy and Xeno notwithstanding. It was all paved over and very, very public in 1981.
animal painter
I have been looking at the streets of Boston,
and happened to "stroll" down Beacon street.
I believe that BP also took this route...probably
walked the "Freedom Trail". If you walk just a bit
farther down Beacon St., you will pass the
Massachusetts State House with the Eagle Monument, (the base
of which is thought to be the image of the stone circle )
Here are my comparisons.
The dome is on a building at the intersection of Beacon and Tremont.
The scrollwork on lady's dress is seen over two doors at the address #11 Beacon St.
Just across the street from the "scrollwork" is the Boston Athenaeum.
Its doors have a resemblance to the lady's shawl squares. And the white top
posts in front of it look like the white top tables in image 11.
The glass balls can be seen outside the Scolley Square Building still on Beacon St.
This could be a reference to Paul Revere's bell, which is located on the Freedom Trail.
(but I cannot take time this morning to pinpoint it.)
Here is a map that helps place some of the images in perspective. (except I did not
include the stone ring/eagle monument or Paul Revere's bell on the map.)
Does this help give us a new direction to search in Boston?? What about
Thucydides and Xenophon?
AP
maltedfalcon
The dome, scrollwork, bubbles, and tables rock, the doors are close...
Whats that area in the picture labeled granary?
looks promising....
animal painter
Malted,
the Granary Burial Ground is where all of the famous patriots are buried.
(along with the woman who is known as "Mother Goose")
AP
shecrab
There is no casque in any cemetary. That's in the book. The Athenaeum is unlikely as you have to be a member to even get in the place. It's a membership library--and though Thucy and Xeno would definitely be IN there, there are no "grounds" to bury a casque in.
Besides--aside from the doors having
squares
, there is absolutely no other resemblance to the lady's dress decoration. There IS however a MARKED resemblance to the decoration in the paving tiles on Copley Square. That scrollwork is too generic, also.
This is really forced.
animal painter
I must admit, that the scrollwork did make me jump when I saw it.
(especially the two figure-8 curves on the bottom)
This is not to say that the casque is buried here, but it does give
a "trail" to follow on Beacon Street...
What will it do to help find the casque? I do not know yet.
aP
animal painter
shecrab wrote::
There IS however a MARKED resemblance to the decoration in the paving tiles on Copley Square.
Shecrab,
I believe that the square paving tiles in Copley Sq. were installed after 2003...as nicely as they fit with image 11.
In the 1970-80's there were only gray octagonal concrete pavers covering the square.
I am still a believer that the casque area is near the library...My findings are not "the very location" of the casque burial sight,
I am merely attempting to find what landmarks JJP used to create all of the detail in his painting. This trail, in my opinion,
has more than a few similarities to the details in image 11. (and no claims were made of anything being buried in the cemetery.)
AP
forest_blight
That scrollwork really intrigues me. Can someone find a clearer image than the ones from Google Maps?
shecrab
AP....I am not talking about the paving stones on the square itself. I am talking about the ones in front of (and under) the statue of Phillips Brooks on the side of Trinity Church where the stairs are. Look at the picture here again...these stones are part of the statue's base, not the part of the square that was re-paved. I believe we determined a while ago that they have been there for quit a long time, well before 1980.
If you keep your "back to the stairs" and "face the water" you actually are facing a lovely long green area with some flowerbeds and lawn and trees. A nice place to bury a casque, IMHO.
forest_blight
Unknown:
I believe we determined a while ago that they have been there for quit a long time, well before 1980.
There is a picture of the flagstones from 1930 on flickr.com. Planks cover the specific tiles of interest to us, but it's clear that they are under there. Probably since 1910 when the statue was erected.
animal painter
forest_blight wrote::
That scrollwork really intrigues me. Can someone find a clearer image than the ones from Google Maps?
Forest,
I did find a photo of the scrollwork which is more focused...
and will say that I am disappointed with the detail...
It does not look as similar as my first photo.
AP
forest_blight
I agree - not as excited anymore.
And excellent job picture-snooping!
Cormac
I still like it... what if he took pictures of things then later painted the pictures...
what if BP's picture of this was a little fuzzy or out of focus...
A little farther down the same street is a building with small "portholes" (for lack of a better word) reminds me of the one behind her.
From these locations...If it was paired up with V 10... you could "gaze north toward the isle of B
"From its earliest beginnings, the North End has been cut off from Boston proper, at first topographically and then socially and economically until only recently. In Colonial days, it was known as the "Island of North Boston" "
North Isle of B = Isle of North B ?
Christopher Columbus Park is also south(ish) of Boston’s North End (and could relate to "Indies native")
The park has many circles, a few triangles,
and there is a set of buildings in the background vaguely similar to that on the box.
hxxp://www.brogan-arts.com/i/4x4%20Gall ... View_1.jpg
hxxp://k41.pbase.com/g3/62/332962/2/880 ... t62g4m.jpg
Also... the globe.... ever hear of the Boston Globe?
Sorry to cross threads here... but another tidbit that could match with Boston and V10
"Arthur Fiedler (December 17, 1894 – July 10, 1979) was the long-time conductor of the Boston Pops Orchestra
His recordings began in July 1935 at Boston's Symphony Hall with RCA, ......., and the first complete recording of Rhapsody in Blue by George Gershwin"...
... maybe a location (soil) with a monument or plaque to a "rapsodic man"
Your humble servant,
Cormac
animal painter
Cormac,
You may have a point...In 1982, BP's photo quality may have
left something to be desired, as far as resolution...
It was such a surprise to find that first photo!
(Even though it is not directly related to a "dig-here location")
AP
animal painter
Still "walking" the Freedom Trail in the North end of Boston.
There is a church that I saw weeks ago, St. Leonards, that
has the checkered arch over its doors..
Today, at St. Leonards, I found a statue with a girl that may have similarity to the image 11 fairy.
Just looking in the
North
End of Boston...since it is "North"...like Thucydides' "area of his direction" is North...
If indeed our search is moved to the North End of Boston, we might want to be looking for the words:
"Eighteenth day" "Twelfth hour" "Lit by lamplight" "In Truth Be Free" as our casque location marker.
AP
animal painter
There is a round stone-looking fountain in Prado/Paul Revere Mall.
If we could find a photo looking at a close-up of the rim, it might
have markings to look like image 11 stone-ring.
There is also a "Moon Street" in the North End district...like the moon in image 11.
Looking for the nearby "5 steps and water" of verse 3.
AP
forest_blight
I saw that fountain while in Boston. The inscription names George Robert White.
animal painter
Forest,
I take it you had a close look at the fountain and did not see
any markings that would make you think of the stone-ring...pity...
Still, what about the fairy/girl statue similarity in the Peace Garden of St Leonard's Church?
AP
shecrab
Erm.....
I think you've forgotten these pictures. Bclews, a person who posted a lot here previously, took a lot of photos of the area in Boston. And you can see confirmers for the scrollwork (two different ones) and the stairs, and the water, and a lot of things. These are worth looking at before going off on other tangents--and they still confirm Copley Square for me, IMHO.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/
Particularly---look at page two, top middle photo, and the scrollwork over the BPL window. The fountain depicted is too young to have been BP's fountain or "water", but the photos are priceless for anyone searching around here.
animal painter
Shecrab,
Copley Square is an "obvious" choice of location.
Until someone can find a spot and dig the casque out,
I am still just searching for the places that inspired JJP
to add so many details in his painting. If those details
lead us to another area of Boston, then I will look
around there, too.
It is not a "tangent". It is another idea.
Personally, I cannot see BP pulling out his shovel in
Copley Square...It is a very public place. It seems that
his previous casque location choices are more off-the-beaten-path.
Sometimes I feel like a "truffle-hunting" pig...with my nose to
the ground...sniffing out the treasure.
AP
shecrab
I don't mean to insult anyone's efforts--searching is an ongoing process, and will necessarily include other ideas. However, it seems that so much of this thread has been rehashed from efforts that have already been put forth. We have the ideas--what we don't have are the diggers. It's my opinion that instead of looking for more confirmation we should be sending someone over there to actually raise some sod.
I think we have plenty of confirmation that the casque is in Copley Square somewhere. Yet no one has even probed there. (have they?) Why look elsewhere until all the possibilities have been completely exhausted at Copley? That's the tangent I'm talking about--that the best location we've confirmed so far is simply ignored when it comes time to actually dig.
We have looked in other areas of Boston--the North end in particular.
And
Harvard.
And
MIT. And nothing MORE has been uncovered than what we've gotten from Copley. In Copley we have the architecture of Trinity Church, the stairs, the water, the details of the woman's dress--(the A-A and the patterns on the stole) the Subway stop (the "T" that the bird perches on) the rounded window details, the Greeks--even "all the letters" (in the Library.) So what else do we need to find? The rest of the painting simply says "Boston" and these details pinpoint it more to Copley than anywhere else.
I don't mind new ideas, but we haven't
had
any new ideas. We're only rehashing
old
ideas again. That's why I posted the link to bclews' pictures--we have already found the scrollwork, the patterns, etc.
If I lived nearer, I'd be up there in a heartbeat with a long probe and a shovel before the weather froze it over.
BTW: Bryant Park in Chicago was right downtown at the intersection of two very busy streets. BP not only dug there, the finders did also. I don't think we can necessarily count on any of his locations being out of the way, or off the beaten path.
maltedfalcon
In chicago, While the park is right there in the middle of town,
The location of the casque , was in a very out of the way corner of the park,
the road is right next to it but raised above. and the railroad tracks to the other side are below ground level.
very secluded and out of sight of casual park goers.
The cleveland site was hidden behind a wall, also very secluded and out of sight...
animal painter
Okay, while we wait for others to dig, I will keep
looking....quietly...not drawing attention from Copley....
not taking away any would-be diggers from the
most obvious location....You won't even know I am
in Boston.
AP
forest_blight
shecrab wrote::
I think we have plenty of confirmation that the casque is in Copley Square somewhere. Yet no one has even probed there. (have they?) Why look elsewhere until all the possibilities have been completely exhausted at Copley? That's the tangent I'm talking about--that the best location we've confirmed so far is simply ignored when it comes time to actually dig.
Until recently Copley Square was covered mostly in pavement, concrete, etc. except for a featureless grassy lawn on the library side. When I was there a few weeks ago, much of the square was under construction, with bulldozers and stretches of turned earth. If the casque was buried in the Square in the early 1980s, you can bet it has been pulverized by now.
animal painter
forest_blight wrote::
Until recently Copley Square was covered mostly in pavement, concrete, etc. except for a featureless grassy lawn on the library side. When I was there a few weeks ago, much of the square was under construction, with bulldozers and stretches of turned earth. If the casque was buried in the Square in the early 1980s, you can bet it has been pulverized by now.
Forest,
I am afraid this is the most probable scenario.
That is one reason I won't give up on Boston
until the North End is searched...especially in
the "isolated corners"...Because Copley Sq. has
been the subject of numerous dig-ups and re-do's in the
last 26 years.
AP
shecrab
Unknown:
If the casque was buried in the Square in the early 1980s, you can bet it has been pulverized by now.
Unknown:
That is one reason I won't give up on Boston
until the North End is searched....
Hmmm...Boston becomes Houston. (sigh) Why do we even bother?
Because the casque might have
migrated
to the North End because of the construction in Copley.....
Okaaaay....
animal painter
Shecrab,
You have such a sense of humor....
The high-traffic, very public profile of Copley
actually makes it less likely a location...But
because of the presence of Thucydides
and Xenophon, it "seems" obvious...
Can you say..."red herring"?
AP
forest_blight
I just don't believe the Copley Square theory anymore. The only reason it was considered in the first place was the presence of T and X on the BPL facade, but Thucydides is NOT north of Xenophon there, which rules out that particular instance of T and X in my mind. The lack of other area confirmers, the lack of diggable space, and the wide-open public aspect of the Square make it highly unlikely, IMHO.
Surely we can find other instances of Thucydides and Xenophon. I mean, heck - their names were also chiseled on stone
within feet
of the Cleveland casque, remember? Those guys got around.
Question: What are two Greek dudes doing in the Italian verse, anyway? Weird.
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
The cleveland site was hidden behind a wall, also very secluded and out of sight...
Secluded? Wasn't there a wedding going on just on the other side of the wall the day Sir Egg unearthed it?
fox
forest_blight wrote::
Surely we can find other instances of Thucydides and Xenophon. I mean, heck - their names were also chiseled on stone
within feet
of the Cleveland casque, remember? Those guys got around.
forest_blight wrote::
I mean, heck - their names were also chiseled on stone
within feet
of the Cleveland casque, remember? Those guys got around.
I can not remember if I have suggested this or not but what if we are focusing too much on poor old T and X? It seems quite obvious {at least to me} that our T and X came from:
“The next Augustan Age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will perhaps be a Thucydides at Boston, Xenophon at New York, and in time, a Virgil in Mexico, and a Newton in Peru.” by Horace Walpole.
Boston...is of course...North of New York. Perhaps there is a monument/memorial/??? of Walpole that we need to locate and take steps towards him. I have always like the Copley Sq idea but if there isn't any logical places to dig, maybe the T and X on the BPL are just coincidental, a la:
and...regarding Mr. Walpole, taken from
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Walpole
:
"His
Letters
are highly readable, and give a vivid picture of the more intellectual part of the aristocracy of his period."
.....&.....
"Works by Horace Walpole, 4th Earl of Orford at Project Gutenberg
The Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume 1
The Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume 2
The Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume 3
The Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume 4
Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume I
Letters of Horace Walpole, Volume II"
All the letters are here to see...
fox
Okie dokie...how about this? The casque is in the Boston Common.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Common_(park
)
Directly across the street from the Common is the St. Paul's Cathedral.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_ ... ul,_Boston
St. Paul's? I seemed to have stopped the above quote a little short. It is, in full:
"The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveller from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra."
fox
sorry....and if
A) my theory that all of the casque locations are somehow connected, AND
B) there is a casque in Lafayette Sq in New Orleans.....
check out what is right there in the Common:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/4890019 ... 189278271/
fox
The Guild Steps
could definitely be our "Back to the stairs"
and I am SURE this is a coincidence but I wanted to share anyways... When doing a google image search for "The Guild Steps, Boston", one of the hits I got was this, with the partial title "founders of the Guild of Boston ..."
she looks a lot like our jewel holding fairy in this P. :) The painting is titled
The Blue Cup
by Joseph DeCamp.
shecrab
Hooooly mack'rel Andy!
I like the painting, Fox. And the steps.
You may even convince me away from Copley.
Where's the water?
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
Secluded? Wasn't there a wedding going on just on the other side of the wall the day Sir Egg unearthed it?
[/quote
Secluded in the sense he was hidden behind an 8 foot wall yes I would say so the very fact that he could dig near by an ongoing wedding proves it is secluded and out of sight
fox
Very good point indeed Mr. Falcon.
Shecrab...there is a large fountain sort of in the center of the park. Unfortunately, almost every thing I read about it, it seems to always mention the fact that it is dry and hasn't run water in quite some time. Couldn't we still consider a dry fountain as 'face the water'?
shecrab
Well sure! Why not? It was probably running in 1981.
fox
That's what I thought.
animal painter
Here is another angle of the statue in the Peace Garden of St. Leonard's Church
on Hanover and Prince St....in the "North End" neighborhood. It still looks like
the fairy of image 11. This would lead us to the NORTH area, well away from
Copley Sq..
On Hanover St, as you enter the North End, there is a well known restaurant
named "Mother Anna's"....Their PR blurb says it "makes you feel at home".
(JFK is known to have eaten there)...Is BP letting us know that we need to]
move down Hanover St.?
animal painter
Searching the North End of Boston, I came upon this fabulous mural
on the wall of Filippo's Restaurant, (283 Causeway Street,Boston..
near the end of Prince St. and the waterfront.) I am not saying that
it is a clue or a link...Just thought you might enjoy seeing it.
AP
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/alohadave/ ... 3/sizes/l/
fox
fox wrote::
Very good point indeed Mr. Falcon.
Shecrab...there is a large fountain sort of in the center of the park. Unfortunately, almost every thing I read about it, it seems to always mention the fact that it is dry and hasn't run water in quite some time. Couldn't we still consider a dry fountain as 'face the water'? :-\
Shecrab, I believe this is the fountain I was referring to. It is called 'Brewer Fountain'.
Here is some info on it. Not sure if this was the initial article I read but it also mentions the lack of water....... However... the article does say:
"The figures represent mythological figures associated with water: Neptune, Amphitrite, Asis, and Galatea." So we have Water without even having Water!
hxxp://boston.about.com/od/walkingtours ... Tour_9.htm
animal painter
Taking the virtual tour around the Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall
you see these clear glass globes EVERYWHERE ! If I were to
be sightseeing in this area, they would certainly make an impression...
(The Market was refurbished in 1975 so they were probably there in 1982)
Here is a terrific link to the virtual tour of the Market Place.
hxxp://www.faneuilhallmarketplace.com/tour.html#
shecrab
I notice that the building in the background of your second photo looks a lot like the Coliseum. I realize it isn't, but the photo makes it look curved.
animal painter
Shecarb,
The Quincy Market also has a "dome".
hxxp://www.celebrateboston.com/freephot ... ket001.htm
It says that the Market was refurbished in 1975.
AP
animal painter
The famous "bull market" weather vane (on top of the dome in Quincy Market)
has this funky looking "thing" on it .From this angle,it looks like a backwards c and o.
Depending on the angle that a photo may have been taken, this could look like
the highlights on image 11 lady's sleeve (elbow)...leading us to the North End area.
It could also be just an overactive imagination...
AP
shecrab
Unknown:
Shecarb,
LOL......possibly one of the truer things ever said about me!
animal painter
Oops...Sorry,
Slip of the keyboard...
animal painter
I am looking for photos of the Cross Street/Hanover Street area.
Apparently, Cross street was created/changed when the "Big Dig" replaced
Boston's Central Artery (elevated roadway) with
the new underground tunnel system...some time after 1983.
AP
fox
animal painter wrote::
Depending on the angle that a photo may have been taken, this could look like
the highlights on image 11 lady's sleeve (elbow)...leading us to the North End area.
It could also be just an overactive imagination...
AP
I'm kind of leaning towards the overactive imagination here. That "oc" would be a perfect thing to put directly into the P as it is...just like Grant Park's Bowman statue. I would say that even a lot of native Bostoneers wouldn't even recognize that as part of their town.
fox
But...using a slightly less overactive imagination:
Even at the angle of the photo, it lines up pretty nicely. I am still sold on the Common though.
slappybuns
hmmm, i know i've been all over the boston common b4 but, i was thinking about that poem by francis thompson that BP used, and he REPLACED "the angels" with "the fairies"........and i was thinking of that angel on the shaw memorial:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/493 ... 189278271/
and the backside has the eagle:
hxxp://farm1.static.flickr.com/213/4934 ... 9a382b.jpg
the eagle is a symbol of liberty and freedom, also i think, it is close to liberty mall (unless i'm turned around)
cw0909
i looked for this did not see it mentioned
i found this lady yesterday, she sorta looks like the lady in pic,
she has a shawl or whatever it is, draped over arms, but she
is holding a bowl, i like she is close to the castle... ie, hotel
and boston commons, and their is a little italy sign and maybe
the bird is on fountian some place
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... on,_MA.JPG
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... 1&ct=image
sorry forgot to mention maps for before and after the big dig
for those wondering what areas it was in
old
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... raffic.png
new
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... raffic.png
cw0909
at this link is a statue some what like the lady in image
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... on,_MA.JPG
Maggiano's Little Italy Restaurant, i dont think it was there in 82,
i think just the neighborhood is little italy
if you go to street view at this link
on the west side of park plaza on arlington ave.
you can see windows, that look very much like
the port hole looking window in image
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&i ... _medium=ha
forest_blight
That building isn't in Little Italy, cw0909. It's south of the Public Garden.
cw0909
so would the Public Garden, and the boston commons, be considered in the Little Italy
of boston
maybe im not understanding the country clue
not sure why grant park was irish.... i didnt think that part of town was considered irish
cleve. greek because of the greek and italian garden
lake park G on the tree for germany letter from the country
Of wonderstone's hearth
i would have too look up some of the others i thought i had
figured out
forest_blight
cw - The "Little Italy" of Boston is the North End, basically the entire area beyond I-93, the "fingernail" of the peninsula.
animal painter
Looking at the top of the stone circle in Image 11,
do you think that maybe it could be a type of rebus?...
something like "broken heart"or maybe domething to
do with "purple heart"?
AP
slappybuns
AP, i wondered that also with "feather" or "dart", i don't see a heart...........lol, i don't wanna put feather and heart together
.
i still like the gilbert stuart monument in boston common. he painted the portrait of "George Washington" that they call "The Athaeneum"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GStuartgrave.JPG
, i do see the heart now, never noticed it b4, i posted that b4 1st cup of coffee. was george washington ever called an "old f$*t"? .........sorry, can't get it out of my head now. lol
AnotherDoth
Unknown:
Brigham Young Monument
An impressive bronzed monument, just north of the intersection at Main and South Temple Streets, honors Church leader and pioneer-colonizer Brigham Young, who led the first company of Mormon pioneers to the Salt Lake Valley in 1847. This monument also pays tribute to the Utah Indians and fur trappers who preceded the Mormon settlers.
The statue of President Brigham Young was first displayed at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893. It stood briefly on Temple Square and was then transferred to the intersection of Main and South Temple streets in 1897, where it stood until 1993, when it was moved north to its present location.
Sorry Boston fans, I'm back on the Utah connection for image 11.
I've always wondered why Pandora has such mannish hands. No Seinfeld jokes please. JJP seems to draw very nice, feminine hands in other images, but poor Pandora has "man-hands".
Then I found the statue of Brigham Young in Salt Lake City.
Notice the position of his outstretched left hand, perfect for holding a box. His right hand holds the top of his cane, similar to how Pandora holds the lid of her box.
For more information on the monument, see:
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM27YX
hxxp://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1783-1-1-1,00.html
The second link says:
What do you think?
cw0909
i moved this discussion
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 817#p98817
Re: Verse 5
« Reply #224 on: Today at 05:10:50 pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll work on it, but I'm not sure Verse 3 actually refers to Boston.
Regarding Image 11 (which shouldn't be in this topic cw0909):
- I don't think longitude and latitude correspond to the location of the buried casque.
- I don't think #41 above the door is used for longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 1941)
- I think #112 is important to identify the site, but doesn't correspond to a longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 112 people)
- I think #42 (or #24) could represent a few different things. (It can be both the day of a baptism and a death)
I'm not sure #71 is purposeful -- although if it is, #71/#42 could represent a statue artist's birthplace.
-----------------because i was going off topic from this statement---------------------
The rest of the facts just go hand in hand to identify the site and where it is buried. (And by the way I think Preiss intended the hunters to find two of the jewels at once, both of which in close proximity using Image 3/Verse 5 and Image 11/Verse 11.)
from
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 817#p98817
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
me off topic
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 818#p98818
Re: Verse 5
« Reply #223 on: Today at 04:24:15 pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
welcome trunkflare
what img would you pair v3 to if not img 11
sorry dont mean to take it off topic, just wondering
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry dont want to cause confusion for discussions, which i prob already have
:-[
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cw0909
mommaegerer, over at tweleve, has an idea for the, Detroit,Michigan
area, for this casque. Detroit is a port city right
she said i could move her post here, she is trying to register
shes working on it
post at tweleve
hxxp://tweleve.org/images/16299-image-11-a-8.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,
It's been a while since I have been on this site, I am from the old ATT days. What fun those days were.
Well, maybe not for my family, since I dragged them across Michigan 7 to 8 times. lol Just the mention
of the name Newaygo State Park is enough to send everyone running. lol
Anyways, I came across the site and started exploring "The Secret" and especially image 11, because of
the possibility of Detroit. I have come up with some things I would like to share with someone who
wouldn't mind searching a bit. I live in Northern Michigan and have an unreliable car at the moment,
and I don't dare ask my husband to travel 4 hours in a rickety car to maybe find a 30 year old buried
treasure, in which that the owner has died and the casque could have possibly decomposed to nothing and
also being in a spot where it could have easily been dug up by someone else, if you know what I mean.
So If someone has an open mind, some free time, and would be able to easily travel the southern half of
Michigan, pm me and let's talk.
My book should be coming in the mail soon so that will be a plus.
Thanks,
Mommaegerer
CenturySam
I used to live in Windsor directly across from Belle Isle, but now I live in London Ontario which is only a couple hours away. I have family within 40 minutes of Detroit and I myself go through the city failry often since the company I work for is headquartered in Michigan. I would be more than happy to investigate any locations or share ideas I can, just let me know.
Thanks for posting this here CW.
wells
i dont know if this info can be useful but the name of the fairy is Hope
forest_blight
You mean, in the "Pandora's Box" sense? This has been covered in the forum.
wells
i could not find that........thanks
animal painter
fox wrote::
A possible hit or a probable stretch:
Since early on, most folks have been referring to the box the woman is holding as a Pandora's Box. The legend in a nutshell states this: The box, sent by the gods with Pandora as a gift to Epimetheus, which she was forbidden to open and which loosed a swarm of evils upon mankind when she opened it. All that remained in the box was Hope!.....
- Now, I'm still trying to find out how long it has been around, but, there is a small store (which many say a trip to Boston needs a visit to) called Hope:
hxxp://www.newbury-st.com/asp/merdtl.asp?id=461
The description of this shop sounds quite "Secretish". This shop is located right next to Prudential Tower "A green tower of lights" (V3) & just down Boylston St from Copley Square. Copley Sq is the small green square on Boylston St to the east of Hope (not Copley Place) on this map:
hxxp://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?co ... on&state=M
A&zipcode=02115&search=++Search++
johann wrote::
You are quite right that the pic 11 Pandora's Box first had us exploring St. Louis, but at some point (or over some time) opinions changed. I began with pic 11 and verse 2, then left verse 2 for too many other verses, then juggled between a few possible pics and verses, then somehow came back to verse 2 and finally pic 9. In short, I was (and perhaps presently am) confused. Your concern is valid.
Wells,
These are two references made to Pandora's Box by Fox and Johann:
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
I can't help but feel that many people seem to be neglected an important facet of this hunt, and that is culture. I think Byron Preiss intentionally included the little poem on pages 20 and 21 as a clue that applies to all 12 treasures. It seems likely that the burial sites of all the casques will be in an area strongly associated with the country of the jewel's origin in the poem.
Image 1 has oft been associated with San Francisco and, in particular, Golden Gate Park. The jewel in this image is the pearl which, according to the poem, comes from "far Cathay" (Asia, basically). San Francisco itself has a strong Asian influence, but interestingly, Golden Gate Park has a Japanese Tea Garden. There are many secluded areas where a casque could have been buried. I think the people in the Image 1 forum are on the right track.
Image 2: the jewel is the diamond. According to the poem the diamond comes from Africa. A lot of people are tossing around the possibility of Sumter being the burial location. I think they're probably right. While Fort Sumter and the surrounding area don't exactly have a huge African influence, I can only imagine that the association comes from the fact that South Carolina had a booming slave trade in the past.
Image 3: Garnet, from England (according to poem). Roanoke Island has been tossed around as a likely location. Roanoke Island has a lot of English history (not enough room here to go into detail, but a quick Wiki search will show you just how "English" the island is). In particular, the Elizabethan Gardens are being looked into for casque locations...Very English.
Image 4: Aquamarine. Greek --> Found in Green Cultural Garden.
Image 5: Irish.....still having trouble finding an Irish association with Grant Park.
Image 6: Sapphire. Spain. People are discussing Florida as a likely location. Lots of Spanish influence in Florida. My guess is that the cast is buried in a park with a significant Spanish influence.
Image 7: Turquoise. French. New Orleans likely location. Very French.
Image 8: Ruby from "Araby". Again, having trouble finding an Arab association other than Houston being very hot.... idk.
Image 9: Opal. The "Lowlands" (basically the Netherlands). Montreal being tossed around. More French influence than Netherlands influence. Maybe we're looking for a particular park that has some Netherlands influence.
Image 10: Amethyst. Germany. Lots of German influence in Milwaukee. Quick Wiki search confirms that.
Image 11: Peridot. Italy. I really think this one is Boston not Salt Lake City as some people are saying. But I'm not totally sold on the Copley Square connection. I used to be sold on it and even traveled there last summer to check things out. But I can't find any Italian connections there. However, the North End is well known as being Boston's Little Italy. It is also the location of Paul Revere's house and the Old North Church. I really want the casque to be in the North End, and not Copley Square (because, as has been pointed out, the casque is probably destroyed now if it was buried in Copley).
Image 12: Topaz. Russia. Again, I could find many Russian connections in New York, so maybe we're looking for a particular park that is very Russian.
Just my 2 cents. I really think that culture at the burial locations is critical in this hunt. Otherwise why would Preiss bother with the poem outlining the jewel's countries of origin?
~Erik
maltedfalcon
Seriously
You have trouble associating anything Chicagoan with the Irish?
go ahead and poke a stick in the ground anywhere in Chicago, it will bleed green.
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
Oh, I didn't realize it was a very irish city. Never been there, don't know much about it. But there are still those other cities where the cultural connection isn't immediately obvious. Which makes me think it's just a particular park that has the cultural connection. Like the Cleveland find. Cleveland isn't all that Greek, but the Cultural Garden sure was.
~Erik
maltedfalcon
I think you are probably on track with this.
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
After reading through most of this Image 11 forum I wasn't able to find any mention of the bird in the bottom left of the picture (maybe I missed the discussion?). For a while I didn't know what to make it but then I thought it looked like Horus, the ancient Egyptian bird-god of the sky. Then I thought it was odd that a random Egyptian symbol such as Horus would appear in an image with nothing else relating to Egypt.
At one point I reread Verse 3 (which I think is connected to Image 11) and paused at the part where it said "Feel at home". This was back when I thought Copley Square was the best location. The fountain in Copley has two obelisks on it. Where better for an Egyptian god to "feel at home" than nestled between two obelisks?
If you position yourself between the obelisks you would be facing the water of the fountain and the stairs to the obelisks would be behind you. The annoying thing about Verse 3, though, is that it doesn't give an exact place to dig, though there is a little patch of lawn in front of the fountain that you would be looking straight at if you were in the spot I just mentioned.
Either way it probably doesn't matter. I'm not 100% sold on Copley anymore. I really think the North End is our best bet. I just thought I'd share my previous thoughts on the Horus in the picture and hopefully spark some discussion on this somewhat out-of-place component of Image 11.
~Erik
wilhouse
If you want a stretch, right next to the Houston zoo was an "arabian stallion" ranch, which bought and sold arabian stallians and was available for riding lessons...
wilhouse
shecrab
maltedfalcon wrote::
Seriously
You have trouble associating anything Chicagoan with the Irish?
go ahead and poke a stick in the ground anywhere in Chicago, it will bleed green.
Absolutely!! Chicago has a HUGE Irish heritage. In addition to the numerous Irish festivals that were held in Grant Park for decades, one particular Irishman dominated Chicago's politics for what seems like forever, and still does (in name): Richard Daley.
If you've ever been there the Irish "connection" is a lot more obvious than not.
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
Does anyone know of any Irishy-ness in Copley Square? Maybe not all is lost.
Otherwise I really want to look more in-depth into Boston's North End. Mainly parks or other areas to dig discreetly.
If anyone has any really good location ideas I'm sure I could go check it out. I only live an hour and ten minutes away from Boston.
catherwood
ScientiaVeritasEtLux wrote::
Cleveland isn't all that Greek, but the Cultural Garden sure was.
I remember living and working in Cleveland, fresh out of college, and it was my first exposure to Greek food. (It was also my first exposure to Tex-Mex food -- Cleveland has a lot of ethnic restaurants, as do many large cities.) No new info there, just felt like sharing a memory, ahhhh.
shecrab
ScientiaVeritasEtLux wrote::
Does anyone know of any Irishy-ness in Copley Square? Maybe not all is lost.
Otherwise I really want to look more in-depth into Boston's North End. Mainly parks or other areas to dig discreetly.
If anyone has any really good location ideas I'm sure I could go check it out. I only live an hour and ten minutes away from Boston.
ARe you kidding? THe entire city of Boston is Irish. Except for Little Italy. LOL...
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
Sorry, when I said "Irishy-ness" I meant to say "Italian-ness". LOL. Getting my "I"s mixed up.
So, is there any >Italian-ness< (yes, I know that's not a real word ^_^) in or around Copley Square?
forest_blight
Frankly, there isn't much unpaved surface around Copley, except in the square itself (which is just a featureless lawn now). It would be difficult to bury anything in the vicinity. I hope it's in the Little Italy section, that would make more sense overall.
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
I think I mentioned before, I really like the idea of either Copps Hill Terrace or Rachael Revere Park in the North End (was Rachael Revere the daughter of Paul Revere or is the name just coincidental? I could find any info on her).
Those are basically the only two places in the North End with some digging area.
ScientiaVeritasEtLux
Maybe the Paul Revere Mall (it's not really a "mall") has some secluded areas that could have been dug up?
shecrab
The casques were supposedly not buried in any gardens or cemeteries where it would disturb the plantings to dig. I know the casque was found in a garden in the Cleveland site, but it was not in a planted part--it was sort of behind the wall and out of sight. I would think that if it is indeed in Boston, it's not in a very public area like Copley square, which is, as has been pointed out, mostly paved now--but there might be places around the church--and it's quite likely, AFAIC--that it could be there--but no one has dug up much or found a definitive location that seems likely. As for Copley being "Italian", it's no more or less Italian-ish than anywhere else, except for places in Little Italy, of course.
I had an idea that instead of the actual "italian" connection, that there may indeed be immigrant connections--and there are some places we discussed around the Golden Stairs (face the water, your back to the stairs)...near the point of entry for so many immigrants.
hxxp://www.eastietimes.com/2009/10/22/t ... n-station/
Here is the passage from the URL above:
Believe it or not, that dilapidated warehouse next to the Navy Fuel Pier on Marginal Street was second only to Ellis Island as a point of entry for thousands of Irish, Jewish and Italians immigrants into the U.S. during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Across Marginal Street from the former Immigration Station building are the ‘Golden Stairs’ named because they represented the final climb to golden opportunity in America for countless Europeans.
shecrab
In fact, you may want to examine this map carefully. Remember the "triangle" shapes on the woman's dress--the ones we thought might be Copley Square at one point? Zoom in on the "Golden Stairs" location and look at the satellite view.
I tried to reproduce the map here, but wasn't successful. Google "Golden Stairs, Marginal street, Boston MA" and zoom in on the words "Golden Stairs" with satellite view.
fox
Keep in mind, BP probably couldn't be doing much satellite imagery in 81.
maltedfalcon
thats true, but the geological survey bureau back then (every city had one) would have aerial photo graphs taken from about 2000 feet of the entire area under their jurisdiction, these would be used for surveys, architects, city planning, etc....
anybody could go to the office and check out the pictures like a library.
The only reason I know this , is I worked at a company that wrote software and next door was the geological survey bureau for San Diego County. I bet they don't offer that service any more. but just because google earth and the terra server didnt exist. doesnt mean the information wasn't available to people.
and Several of BP's images contain aerial photo images. ie the fountain in Grant Park is in the image.
shecrab
Unknown:
Keep in mind, BP probably couldn't be doing much satellite imagery in 81.
He might not have, but the walkways through the area would probably have been far less overgrown then, as well as being kept up a bit better and therefore a lot more visiible. Remember, this area has been largely abandoned in the last few years. I'll bet it was a lot less so then. besides, there are a couple of the other Pics where there are decent "overhead" views that show possible locations based on their shapes. Why not here?
Hirudiniforme
I appologize in advance if this has already been discussed (I am not very good with the search feature)... and I know most of us are already stuck on our own I/V connections (I am better with puns)... even me...
but V5's "Lane two twenty two" has no hyphens. This must be deliberate, otherwise it would be obviously incorrect (we learned "twenty-two" was proper in the 4th grade). I11 has that 112 with a unique circle next to it, with a 2 right just below. The second 2 is not just a stroke, it is clearly purposeful, and clearly separate from the other numbers. And the unique circular mark is repeated, quite exactly, next to what some refer to as Utah. Does this circle identify where the state is, as well as make it clear that this number is actually two(1 and 1) twenty(2o) two(2).
the cleveland and chicago finds both used this type of indicator: picture in image that was mentioned in verse. even though these are numbers, they are still in the image and the verse. until proven incorrect, and with BP's admission that this hunt would be short, i'd like to believe each image/verse has a connection like this.
i really don't know exactly how this helps... i'm just throwing a couple pennies on the board. again, sorry if this is stupid or a stretch.
catherwood
Unknown:
Lane
Two twenty two
You'll see an arc of lights
I just wanted to link to the thread for Verse 5 for reference
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... opic=899.0
The poem doesn't hyphenate "222" or even spell it out the way you'd expect, this is true,
but also it separates "Lane" from the numbers.
(Further discussion and analysis of that text should be moved to the thread for Verse 5 as linked above)
As for indicators which link a verse to an image, this is something I'll have to go back to think about. I don't remember if we ever discussed it here. If this is a working theory for all of the pairs, perhaps we need a new thread to gather the evidence. Anything which settles the matter as to how the verses pair with the images would certainly be welcome. For now, I'll have to refresh my memory on the Cleveland find and the Chicago clues as well.
For this image specifically (to stay on topic), it's been so long that I can't recall exactly where these bit are that you point to. (Honestly, my notes say there's 111 and 112 in there, but i've forgotten where they are hidden, my bad.) I don't remember a Utah shape specifically, just that the longitude/latitude would put the treasure in Salt Lake City (again, going from my notes). But my gut tells me that if we see something that does look like " 1 1 2 " and also " 1 1 1 " in the same image, the logical conclusion is that those clues simply mean the whole numbers 111 and 112, rather than deconstructing their digits.
(coming back after looking at the image some more...)
Now i see the 112 and the circle, to the right of the fairy holding the green gem, in the flower petals. What you see as a second '2' below it, I see as being more filled in, to make the clue blend in with the flowers. I'll still say that the circle is not meant to be part of the numbers, because it isn't rendered in the same airbrush technique. If it were smaller, I might even say that it is a degree symbol, for longitude, but such a clue was not present (or necessary) with the numbers in any other image, so I don't push that idea myself. I have no other explanations for that circle being there, so I cannot say your idea is wrong, just that it isn't how I would interpret it.
digger7
In the Cleveland hunt, it was the two columns in the foreground of the image and the penultimate line in the verse "seek the columns" that tied the two together.
In the Chicago hunt, it was the fence that is seen on the wall of the castle and the 9th line of the verse "fence and fixture" that tied the two together. I can't remember whether or not a picture of the fence was posted on this site but I have been there (I went a few years ago to look around the site) at it is exactly like it looks in the image.
In the Milwaukee hunt, (I believe) that it is the tree that is seen as the top part of her cloak and 2nd and 3rd to last lines in the verse "On a proud, tall fifth At its southern foot" that tie the two together. Although the tree is probably long gone by now.
animal painter
Hey, Digger!
Long time no see!
I go agree with you about the "cape tree" that is in the image
as being the "proud tall 5th".
I should take a drive to the lakefront soon and see what is
left of the old landmarks after the reconstruction of the bridges,
the culling of trees in the ravines and the recent flooding.
AP
digger7
I'm here every day, just don't usually have anything to say. I didn't know there had been flooding up by you.
frishkie
Sorry for being dense, but could you clarify where you see the tree in the cloak. I have been wondering for awhile about these image-verse links (columns; fence & fixture), but I haven't been sure about the link to verse 8 for this image.
Frishkie
animal painter
Frishkie,
Sorry about crossing over the threads.
The tree in the cloak is referring to image 10.
AP
Hirudiniforme
Is there any one else out there that believes this Image is refering to Utah and not Mass?
Cormac
Not me... but show some maps or pictures to work off of and I'll gladly help look for more supporting connections online.
forest_blight
On tying images to verses, the "land by the window" (Roanoke Island) is explicitly depicted in P3.
maltedfalcon
not having pictures in front of me
can you explain this in more detail
thanks
forest_blight
See shecrab's post on p. 15 of the image 3 thread -- side-by-side images make it obvious.
maltedfalcon
thanks for that.
oh(light dawns) Land by the window... the map, is by the window.... duh!
Hirudiniforme
Thanks for responding to the Lane two twenty two post I had... was really just trying to stimulate some discussion. Nice to see it has.
On P11 and Utah, these are my thoughts (although I really love the boston building matching the pic on the box)... Please comment on their percieved validity.
1. the lat and long fit (42 112 exactly is hwy 15 on the border of utah and idaho, running directly into SLC
2. the image of utah in the cracks of the upper portion of the circular rock window.
3. does the crack that is the bottom border to utah image reference the rift valley (Basin and Range province) running in Nevada and Utah?
4. cursive SLC in the woman's skit (from top to bottom - backward S in box 1 - looping into the lower case L - looping into the downward facing C).
Things in this image that bother me...
1. The number 3 in box 3 of the woman's skirt (vine touching the top side and right side of the box), using the bottom loop of the L described in box 2, a 30 maybe?
2. The number 8 that appears inside the 2 of the 42 cuff... using the loop in the 2, a 80 maybe?
3. The woman's man hands... they do not fit, nor does the black phantom, unusually dark cuff on the woman's right hand (brigham young's hands that have been pointed out).
4. The strange crack directly above the 112
5. The strange crack separating utah image from... nevada?
WhiteRabbit
"PI" appears reversed at the top of the arch.
I wondered if there was a suggestion of III . 1 4 II (3.142) to go with it...
...or the 16th character of the Greek alphabet...
maltedfalcon
Pi is 3.1412 not 3.142 and
if you were rounding it would be 3.141
but I see
I see 1412 if you are reading that way. so it works
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
Pi is 3.1412 not 3.142
...it starts 3.14159, which rounds up to 3.142...
maltedfalcon
I stand corrected
But then it doesn't work
As the picture shows in reverse
1 4 1 11
Or 1412
WhiteRabbit
Thanks for the comments.
I was suggesting:
III . 1 4 II (non reversed)
The "feather" is the 1 of 14. It's fairly tenuous I admit...
slappybuns
sorry whiterabbit, i'm not even through reading this whole thread but i'm still convinced it is in boston,
k, u boston guys this is my newest idea, tho i did have this "spot" long time ago, but rereading everything (still on p. 24), and i was looking at the
black falcon avenue
stuff, when i thought hmm, he's sitting on the "T", so i looked for the terminal (
black falcon terminal)
and it's on 66 Summer Street. and since the black falcon is opposite of the "jewel and "fairy"" in the image, if you go across from 66 summer street you come right back to "
Boston Common
s" approximately right around the
"Soldier's and Sailor's monument
"...if you look at this monument in google earth..........l
ook at the circle around the statue.
..........sure looks like it to me!
Bclews are u still around?
i figure around the "navy" or maybe "history"
"Bronze statues that formerly stood on the monument's corners representing peace, history, the army and the navy have been placed in storage to prevent further deterioration and vandalism."
also, if i'm remembering correctly, longfellow is on this monument also
the "feel at home" line could be pointing to the lady on top of the monument representing "
AMERICA
"
another thought that came to me as i was reading, since we thought the first lines of the verses related to roads..........the "I
f Thucydides is North of Xexonpho
n" line might just mean
Historic roa
d (since they were historians.........so start at the "
Freedom Tr
ail" going TOWARD
Horace Mann
(in front of the State House)
boogieman? what do you think? look at the MONUMENT thru google earth!
if you walk "
FIVE
" blocks east you are at boston commons
slappybuns
i know i said i would try to be more organized this time but.............
i've always thought this picture was more Norse looking than italian................and we have the leif ericson statue at commonwealth mall...........and i know you guys are gonna kill me but...........just looking him up
it said this:
"Lief Ericson, first European discoverer of Newfoundland, sculpted by Anne Whitney. 1887. Commissioned by Eben Norton Horsford, t
he inventor of baking powde
r, this statue was originally sited at the Massachusetts Avenue end of this block, but was moved to Charlesgate in 1917"
then in the book p. 74: (the only Norse fair folk)
Household Unfamiliars: spotter's tips.............in the fridge...in the rest of the house.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=lief+ericson+boston
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/verdammelt ... otostream/
i can't get a close up from google earth.....
don't you guys wish u could still "smite" me
WhiteRabbit
(Some brainstorming on Image 11 / V3)
A couple more Pi suggestions in the Italian section of the prologue:
...cliff-dwellers from the wintry Piedmont...away they sped towards the Pillars of Hercules...
Among the names on the BPL is Pythagoras, "five steps" back from Thucydides. (Appears in the Field Guide under Calcubus.)
Pythagoras' theorem
provides a way of approximating Pi.
(I see Pindar, from the verse below, also puts in an appearance.)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
OK, enough about Pi already. I'll get back onto my other pet subject, the Field Guide. I'd previously wondered if the Postmonster General (Benjamin Franklin, Postmaster General) had a caricature of this image...
...so I was interested to read about the lampost postbox theories, and Boston's Franklin connections.
Re: the Walpole quote:
...name the geniuses of 1774, and I submit. The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston...
1774 is also the date of the
Boston Port Act
, a reaction to the tea party. (I suppose it might be worth considering some of the people involved, as the "geniuses"...)
Gladiolus comes from gladius, sword, hence gladiator - ties in with coliseum.
Can't do much with the capitals of the litany verse except IPA. Brewery?
Pandora's box resembles a tea caddy...
...reminded me of the
Japanese Tea Ceremony
, and opens up buddhist/golfing references for Field Guide believers.
Been playing with some anagrams of the verse initials. The best I've come up with so far is:
A fay flew tin - Twain II
People have suggested an SLC in this image. As well as Salt Lake City, these are also
Mark Twain's
initials. (Other appearances in V7 and Dixie Pixie.) Here are some
newspaper interviews
, and a piece on
Boston
.
One of the intervews on this page with the
Boston Globe
refers to 42, talks about Twain's
Innocents Abroad
(also called
The New Pilgrim's Progress
, cf "Pill Grim's progress" on P66), and took place in Boston at 388 Beacon St ("tower of lights").
(
Beacon St
was mentioned on
P28
of the V3 thread. Loads of stuff in that street isn't there...buildings roofed by Revere and stuff.)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I was wandering around Back St near the river, behind number 388, on Google Street View, pondering: "Face the water your back to the stairs", and thought of another anagram:
If Twain, win a fay tile
...or we could forget about Twain...
If a twin, a fay tile win
Heck, it even rhymes. ;)
Too many possible anagrams of these letters. But the verse initials end with an anagram of "tile", or working upwards, "a tile", "fay a tile". Wonder if that's a clue to the final location. Maybe that's Pandora lifting one up.
Re: the Boston legeater, the initials for “A green tower of lights” echo the capitals of the suspected Montreal litany verse (The Opal Lowland Gnomes A). May be coincidence, though the word
Togal
relates to “the practice of the six lamps” in Buddhism. Since the Montreal legeater is on a lamp, I’m considering it as part of a possible set of hints orbiting around references to TM (meditation), MT (Twain), TAO, Tea ceremonies, lotus positions, etc.
WhiteRabbit
I think this is the fairy:
It’s a detail from a painting called
The Red Cross Knight
, by a Boston artist called
JS Copley
. (He was mentioned on P13 as having painted "Paul Revere, Nathaniel Sparhawk, John Hancock, Mrs. Thomas Boylston, and Nicolas Boylston".)
The Red Cross Knight is a character from Spenser’s
The Faerie Queene
.
There’s a club called
The Somerset Club
(originally the Beacon Club) based at 42 Beacon St. The house was built on land originally owned by Copley.
(I'm starting to think the numbers in these images are multi-purpose.)
Another of Copley’s subjects was
Samuel Adams
, who was closely involved in the events surrounding the Boston Tea Party. He was also said to have been a brewer. (Possible link to litany verse IPA).
Another possible brewing reference is the
Brewer Fountain
on nearby Boston Common.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I was considering the
Massachusetts State House
further along Beacon St. (No. 24, 42 reversed), with its roof by Revere, and that line "Face the water, your back to the stairs". I thought about standing by the stairs in front of the building, facing the Brewer Fountain, then realised that looked very like where the "Symp/Trog" were. (
Bulfinch
worked on both buildings.)
Here's a map showing the MSH and the fountain. I like Boston Common. I suppose it's off-limits for digging though?
Someone suggested: "Feel a tome" for "Feel at home". The fairy in the painting is holding a book. She's also holding what looks like a snake in a goblet where the peridot should be.
maltedfalcon
I wouldnt think boston common would be off limits
there's plenty of out of the way spots on the commons that would work
very similar to grant park in Chicago
or
the cultural gardens in cleveland...
forest_blight
It is interesting how you brought Copley back into it, given that we were considering Copley Square for awhile there. Her scarf even looks like the faery's wings (how do you find this stuff??).
According to your link, the lady in Blue is Hope (Hope was what remained in Pandora's box, and dollars to donuts that's Pandora in P11). Too bad that the National Gallery of Art is in Washington DC.
slappybuns
i only see "light" emitting out of the box..........a beacon ;D
always thought the fairy looked like this angel:
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... nal_01.jpg
with the rifles as the lady's hair (in the image)
which i think is across from the mary dyer statue which says ".....to the liberty of the truth"
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/489050634/
WhiteRabbit
(...just some further ramblings and field guide references, you can skip this bit...)
...so the blue figure is hope then. And the white fairy is faith,
The Faerie Queene
being an allegory involving Faith, Hope and Charity (cross, anchor, heart, from Corinthians 13:13). The artist's models for the painting were his children, Faith being modelled by his daughter Elizabeth Clarke Copley, who married
Gardiner Greene
. His grandson
Gardiner Greene Hubbard
was one of the founders of the Bell Telephone Company. Field Guide reference here is the Tinkerbelles, telephone fairies, quotes Bell talking to his assistant
Thomas Augustus Watson
while they were working together in Boston.
(Another of Gardiner Greene Hubbard's ancestors was
Lion Gardiner
- possible connection with
Freetown
/ Sierra Leone Creole SLC / Blyden.)
Re: "Face the water", wondering about the frog pond on the common, how long that's been there. There's a quirky link from the Tinkerbelles to the Werner von Brownie two pages back - finger in the ear, "hold in your ear" in caps - they're standing by a pond and frogs are mentioned - albeit "not quite
there
, but certainly at a safe distance". The rocket at a safe distance seems to have "EDER" written on the side - what's that about?
PI/P1 led me to the Maitre D'eamon, French ("a frog"), holding a snake. This is explained by the reference under Djinn Rummy to "the snake in certain French spirits" (cf fairy snake-goblet). I can't find much on this beverage, though it seems to be "Eau de vie".
Incidentally, Copley's
father-in-law
was the guy who had the tea that caused the party.
(I see Horace Mann's buddy
Sarmiento
puts in an appearance on Commonwealth Ave, bless him.)
Map shows positions of Sarmiento (ring), frog pond (cross).
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Five roads north of the library...? Commonwealth Ave...?
Or Shaw...?
His
portrait
is in Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, but this also leads back to the
Robert Gould Shaw memorial
mentioned above. If you stand at the steps of the Massachusetts State House and look out over Boston Common, it's right in front of you.
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
With metal walls
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
"Metal wall"...?
slappybuns
wow u are good with your images!
that is pretty neat about shaw being on there.....
forest_blight
I think the Shaw of BPL is probably George Bernard Shaw.
...but it's crazy that Sarmiento has a prominent statue in Boston. What are the odds?
slappybuns
we saw sarmiento in the commonwealth long time ago......everything is connected in this book. it's so frustrating!
i was reading up on melville and he knew just about everyone we ever mentioned from this hunt, whitman, poe, longfellow, and probably sarmiento too! had a list somewhere, but notes are getting messy again
i think we thought the shape of the oval and the walkway up to sarmiento looked like the shape of the lady's cloak and the oval in the image.
WhiteRabbit
forest_blight wrote::
When we get to the point where anagrams are seriously entertained as the way to find the treasure, the terrorists have already won.
Although longer anagrams are unlikely to yield anything useful, I find it hard to discount them altogether. For instance, take:
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
What's "the area of his direction" supposed to mean...? Makes no sense. It's not grammatically correct. It doesn't scan. There must be a reason why BP added "the area of".
The direction we're talking about is N, so one interpretation might be "area n", or "arena". (There's also the "coliseum" reference.)
A search on Boston arenas throws up the
Matthews Arena
, previously the "Boston Arena". (Arrow "A").
This brought my attention back to the
Museum of Fine Arts
mentioned above (ringed on the map). As well as Shaw, they've got stuff like Revere by Copley holding a teapot:
In general, the
Back Bay Fens
looks like an interesting spot, with plenty of statuary, memorials, Japanese temple bells and stuff; water, stairs, etc.
shecrab
Unknown:
What's "the area of his direction" supposed to mean...? Makes no sense. It's not grammatically correct. It doesn't scan. There must be a reason why BP added "the area of".
Sure it makes sense. In the area of his direction would mean in the NORTH AREA. It's grammatically correct. i.e., North Boston.
WhiteRabbit
All the letters
Are here to see
There's a Boston alley called
Pi Alley
(aka "Pie Alley"). There's a legend that it got this name because it was used for dumping unwanted printer's lead type. (The Boston Herald was just round the corner.) A
printer's pie
is a jumbled pile of type. Revere's work involved lead engraving. The shape of the nearby building matches the image.
West entrance:
East entrance:
All
ey the letters...?
"Pie Alley" is also a
bowling
term, meaning a lane which is easy to score on.
Face the water
It's next to Water St.
Here's an overview showing, left to right, Boston Public Library, Granary Burying Ground (Revere), Pi Alley.
Lit by lamplight
There was a Pi Alley cinema.
hxxp://cinematreasures.org/theater/6416/
In truth, be free
Liberty Square...?
(Looking at Water St. OK, so it's not exactly inconspicuous...)
WhiteRabbit
More Boston brainstorming.
If the box is Park Plaza:
...and the fairy is by Copley...
...then put them on the map, at Park Plaza and Copley Square...
...and pull back to see what else fits.
Northeast, the Massachusetts State House by
Bullfinch
matches the birdie.
The patterned "SLC" rectangle matches the Boston Public Garden. There's an obscure Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens) connection via a comment he made on the bizarre
Ether
memorial - yep, a memorial to the anaesthetic.
To the south, Pandora's face falls around Franklin & Blackstone Squares- originally intended as one big square called
Columbia
.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_a ... ne_Squares
"
Columbia
is a poetic name for the Americas and the feminine personification of the United States of America."
Columbia Pictures logo...?
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures
The company was named in
1924
animal painter
WhiteRabbit,
I love the fairy painting. Where was that?
What is your thinking about the top of the stone circle
which looks like a purple heart and a jagged crack?
AP
WhiteRabbit
...it's actually in Washington...
(It’s a detail from a painting called
The Red Cross Knight
, by a Boston artist called
JS Copley
whose other subjects included
Revere
. The Red Cross Knight is from Spenser’s
The Faerie Queene
. This winged fairy character represents "Faith".)
The crack...hmm, dunno. I seem to remember someone suggesting a feather...
Not much going on in these squares apart from their identical fountains...
Just keeping some ideas going as I feel Boston oughta be solvable...
slappybuns
was hoping that "shadow" on the neck would fit with the emerald necklace parks of olmsted, but i don't see it
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/static/f ... page_2.pdf
WhiteRabbit
.
(Deleted posts - wrong verse)
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The visual arts played a significant role in Melville's writing, and especially in the crafting of Moby-Dick. Scholars have identified many of the artworks that inspired Melville during the writing of his whaling novel. However, this exploration is a continuing enterprise. I believe one noteworthy piece of art that deserves further investigation in its connection to Moby-Dick is John Singleton Copley's painting, Watson and the Shark.
...here we go, Copley had to come into it somehow....
hxxp://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-135579404.html
WhiteRabbit
In the interest of connecting everything in the Universe with everything else, I give you
Oliver Wendell Holmes
, a doctor who studied at Boston Medical College, and writer whose works include the celebrated poem
"The Last Leaf"
. This was inspired by Herman's grandfather and Tea Party celebrant,
Thomas Melvill
. That's one theory of how the image 11 feather lines up with the Boston University Medical Campus.
WhiteRabbit
(Image11 / Image12 comparison.)
slappybuns
the book says "cradling italy".....................little italy (like a baby
)
umm, i also get thoughts of baby moses..........lol
( i put this on the verse 3 thread also)
WhiteRabbit, could you get pictures like that of the guild steps?? they were built in 1917, which would fit the numbers in the oval..........and guess what!! he was ambassador to russia. i remember thinking this picture seemed nordic to me..................
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2v ... ss&f=false
curtis guild was ambassador to russia
i'm thinking that feather is just a quill for a writer now, like longfellow (bridge, or statue (sailors monument), oliver wendell holmes (feel at home)
holme's path
guild steps:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/489 ... otostream/
i like how the next picture of wallyg's, the founder's memorial has "wee" and "small"
really getting confusing now with the "ether" monument and the image 2 lion, and the shaw memorial with the angel:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_photos/4521200534/
hxxp://ctmonuments.net/2010/05/robert-g ... al-boston/
he steps leading down from the shaw monument are dedicated to ww i soldiers and sailors and the two elm trees are over 200 years old, and one supposedly planted by john hancock (all the letters are there to see)
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2v ... ss&f=false
slappybuns
but seems there was something in the book that makes me think italian (whereas columbus park would fit), something about "stowed" in the boat (harriet beecher stowe, (some relative of henry ward beecher) and peeping toms, and she wrote Uncle Tom's cabin.................
hmmm, edward everett hale married a Beecher, and he's in boston, and he has a cane! and he is in boston public garden and he was a preacher...(hard word)!
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/29661629@N00/372940474
(this is on the verse 10 thread , i always liked that sailors and soldiers monument that had longfellow on it)
forest_blight
Okay, try this out: Prospect Park in Somerville, MA.
What it's got going for it:
1. A castle-shaped monument that sorta resembles the one on the box.
2. The staircase has railings with S-shaped swirly things like those on Pandora's dress.
3. It's in the Boston area (Paul Revere's ride).
erexere
WhiteRabbit wrote::
In the interest of connecting everything in the Universe with everything else, I give you
Oliver Wendell Holmes
, a doctor who studied at Boston Medical College, and writer whose works include the celebrated poem
"The Last Leaf"
. This was inspired by Herman's grandfather and Tea Party celebrant,
Thomas Melvill
. That's one theory of how the image 11 feather lines up with the Boston University Medical Campus.
WR, I like this material. The BUMC came up for me when searching oculus/boston.
WhiteRabbit
My personal favourite of all the stuff I've posted about Boston is the Hatch Shell matches I put here, like the hair and the box lid...although no-one else likes these. :'(
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=724.525
erexere
Those hatch photos aren't too shabby. Don't you mean to say you've received little or no response about them, or have folks been adamant in their objections? As the original poster of material, you might see more in the image than you're words convey. I'm having that problem all over the place. A good idea might be to have a REVIEW of material by each person along with some kind of independent rating of confidence. I've seen scant postings where people say "I feel 100% on this match...".
erexere
sorry if this comes through twice.
and the inside of the Barker Dome at MIT
forest_blight
erexere -- nice find. I think we need a close-up of that Scientology facade.
erexere
I'm wondering if Preiss wanted to establish this portion of the hunt with Lafayette Hubbard in mind.
forest_blight
As with erexere, our girl's collar rang a bell with me today. There is a particular kind of window sometimes seen on the upper first story of shop fronts (1920s - 1940s?) that looks suspiciously like the pattern on the collar. Here are some examples from Durham, NC:
slappybuns
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_X-dHrIJoe9w/T ... G_1978.JPG
king's chapel.......
does that circular part above the light fixture look like a feather to you guys? or like whatever that is in the image?
here's another one:
hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/25 ... 9874ONrBAz
hxxp://dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0008060.htm
erexere
(Cross posted from Verse 3)
Some rough ideas here and it would be great to get a detailed closeup of the facade at 448 Beacon Street, which I simply found by taking five steps North and East of the BPL. I interpreted X as the intersection at BPL and Copley Square and T as the nearest bridge that takes you to MIT's Engineering Library while taking a view from the steps of the Optometrist building. There are lots of details yet for me to understand. Understanding how the Freedom Trail works in is important and anything else related to a bird or L. Ron Hubbard might help.
I like the window architecture angle, let's dig deeper into things glazier...
erexere
I wanted to take a healthy break from this hunt today but I had a rush of ideas and couldn't resist piecing this image together with something that looks confirming when used with verse 3.
There is an area under an overpass just south of the bridge and west of what was the church of scientology on Beacon St.
Feel at home = "have a roof over your head" = underneath the overpass in a grass and tree setting facing a watery canal.
The upper right side of the oculus in this image has a small boxed area and an arcing line peeling off to the upper-right. This line corresponds (matching north as up perspective) with an offramp onto Storrow Drive and the box would correspond to the intersection of W. Charlesgate and Beacon St. The "green tower" is most recognizable in the face of the building or this large sign post in the direction of E. Charlesgate and Beacon St.
Under the overpass down a set of stairs next to the watery canal I saw several elements that looked familiar: the shape above the green tower on the building looks like the woman's hair outline above her forehead, the 3 globes are in similar perspective to the three large watery globes, the triangular shape on the woman's wrist cuff, the flat square on the bottom left of the bird stoop, and the smaller cylinder sections connecting the globe the axis stand look like the connections between the top of the columns and the underside of the "roof" overpass.
I slapped this together quickly, hope it makes sense.
shecrab
Here's your box castle:
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... ,,0,-22.32
It's the Castle at Park Plaza, in Boston, near Copley Square.
erexere
Outline of hair on building across from next picture.
Globes. Standing with his back to a set of stairs, Preiss must've stood on top of the stone wall next to the pyramid shaped topper to get this angle on the globes as their perspective would be correct from a position about 3 feet higher. (Note: this exact same camera angle situation occurs with Image 6...Preiss liked to roost on stoops, apparently)
erexere
I should add that those globes are 10 to 20 ft apart, but this angle aligns them into a nice tight triangle. This practice of intentional alignement of scenery near and far is the molten core of Preiss' Secret. (Why do I feel like I'm writing in pulpy tabloid style??)
erexere
Here's the road segment match: (no rotations)
Here's the alternate angle if we are to assume Priess' use of "back to the stairs" was a reference to the "five steps" as opposed to a real set of stairs on the other side of these globes.
Five Steps - (rotated about 30 degrees to make the stair level)
slappybuns
i like your idea of alignment with the images erexere but with boston i keep going to the right
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM20 ... e_Memorial
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/492 ... otostream/
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=37582
this is close to the sailors and soldiers monument and the holmes path
hxxp://www.walkboston.org/resources/ima ... monMap.pdf
the holmes path is called the "long" path now
reading about the great elm it always mentions "1812" but i can't find it on a marker
and don' t forget the sailors and soldier's monument has "by land and sea" on it
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/488 ... otostream/
man of
"letters"
and the cane, and a relative to the "stowes" ......."stowed away"
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/488 ... otostream/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/4886472003/
hope?
charles street gate
erexere
I haven't figured in many important parts of verse yet. Eighteenth Day has me boggled, except one idea that follows the Greek Fraternity link and would actually bridge some gap between clues is the 18th letter of the alphabet is Sigma. Next door to Theta Chi (528 and 532 Beacon St.) Is Sigma Chi, the first and oldest Fraternity. Chi in symbolism means many things, but one literary and optics idea caught my interest: a concept called the chiasmus, where structure is implemented to achieve a balance. This image has a lot of balance to it with the oculus, woman in the middle, hair evenly lifted to both sides. The Falcon balances on one foot. The globes balanced on axis.
Freedom Trail stuff looks good too. I wish I was closer to Boston, this looks like a fun place to investigate.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
Eighteenth Day has me boggled.
(You're aware of Boston's Revere/Longfellow connection...?)
Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour / Lit by lamplight
"...the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April...Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch..."
erexere
Yeah, I got that too. Just reworked some new ideas in my previous post.
I've been hooked into a different process lately. All the immediate history is a gauntlet to be navigated by the nuance of a madman. Revere is a great find, but too likely and so I rub my eyes and look again. The Greek historians...how do they tie in an is it just one way or a double meaning? I wasn't that comfortable with the arbritrary assignment to bridge and intersection and just being the BPL (starting place?) Didn't seem good enough, especially if the trail smells Greek. The problem is finding a lid to the box (metaphor, sorry). I wonder if 18th Greek letter is that lid.
What could the "4" and "2" wrist cuff mean?
slappybuns
that 42 is the lat/longitude number erexere
this is the the italian picture erexere
the gem
wanted to show this too because of the "wee" and "small"
hxxp://ctmonuments.net/2010/05/founders ... al-boston/
i think the shape of boston common and the public garden is the box and the light shining from it
here's a good map of everything in the gardens--------even my football helmet
hxxp://iwalkedaudiotours.com/iw/wp-cont ... Garden.pdf
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
The Greek historians...how do they tie in an is it just one way or a double meaning?
In verse 12, "M and B" were musicians engraved on a wall at the starting point of the trail. It was purely a visual reference, very similar to Thuc and Xeno. They didn't figure again in that puzzle, although they possibly have a guest appearance in this one...
...just as Thuc and Xeno had a cameo in Cleveland's Cultural Gardens...
hxxp://www.culturalgardens.org/gardenDe ... ardenID=11
WhiteRabbit
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Feel at home
All the letters
Are here to see
Wondering about this area at the back of the shell...
It's near the howitzer.
"This howitzer cannon is permanently mounted by the Hatch Shell on the Esplanade and is used during the July 4th Boston Pops concert when they play the 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky."
erexere
WR- in your Hatch theory what do the red orbs represent? People still set on golf tees or think them as neutral elements? I'm thinking they are basketballs.
With the howitzer I'm inclined to think the orbs represent grape shot.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
WR- in your Hatch theory what do the red orbs represent? People still set on golf tees or think them as neutral elements? I'm thinking they are basketballs.
With the howitzer I'm inclined to think the orbs represent grape shot.
Red orbs...? You mean image 10...? I guess that's golf/Milwaukee. The statue outside the BPL seems to account for at least one of the orbs in image 11, though I'm not sure about the others...
(Whereabouts is your "green tower" building...?)
erexere
Oh goofy me...I had my head in the wrong image. Yes, red orbs milwaukee so nevermind that Q.
My version of the green tower is on the corner of E Charlesgate and Beacon St.
erexere
To anyone following my charlesgate/beacon intersection theory, I took an alternate angle on the spot from which the globe lamps in the park line up to create the triangular formation in this image. I didn't realize until just now that there's a big box on a cement slab foundation and there looks like a spot of dig-worthy dirt such that you can face the water and have your back to the stairs. Here's the deal: "the water" is not the actual water way, and "the stairs" are not the figurative verse version that I thought made by my version of "five steps" when moving up and over block to block from BPL to this park below the overpass; "the water" is the spot where the lamp globes line up -notice that the globes are watery in the image, and "the stairs" are the literal stairs behind this point just on the west side of the area.
I'm thinking this box and right beside (west side) is where a digging person shall find a casque.
WhiteRabbit
The spiky hair in this image previously reminded me of the Fiedler statue at the Hatch Shell, though a shoreline could be another possibility...eg, the North End.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
The spiky hair in this image previously reminded me of the Fiedler statue at the Hatch Shell, though a shoreline could be another possibility...eg, the North End.
I never thought the spiky hair was the Fielder statue, I always thought it was the strangely not spiky hair...
Either way... I do think that the distinct face impression is important as the texture is
so
different from the rest of the hair (i.e., not a bunch of split ends in need of some panteine pro v). Thoughts?
erexere
Hi, this is a real winner of a solution for combining several items into one standing perspective:
Green Line: beneath overpass = feel at home (roof overhead)
Dark Blue Box (rounded): water, face it go towards it by stepping over rail and past box, turn to face globes and stairs are behind you
Lavender Oval: bird stump is the same relative height to this railing if standing next to it
Light Blue Box: it's a marker for where to stand, centered as if you would open it
White Triangle/Line: specific alignment on three lamp globes in park when standing on Red X
Orange Line: top of head and hair pair well to the green tower facade seen in line's direction above the lamp globes
There is also a stair behind you (facing globes and tower) as you face the water.
forest_blight
Here is a spot for someone to research, if so inclined: Fort Revere.
Fort Revere is in Hull, Massachusetts, and once guarded the entrance to Boston Harbor. It is quite close to Boston, and bears an obvious connection to Paul Revere (whose midnight ride is reflected in V3). It would have been very easy to dig there at night. There is even a tower on the grounds that bears a superficial resemblance to the one on "Pandora's" box in P11.
Worth pursuing?
erexere
cool looking place, definitely worth pursuing if the Revere idea gels better.
I like to check out the architecture of libraries that might be in the vicinity. I think BP was into places with books...
This looks like an iconic kind of place, the Hull Public Library:
erexere
That's a really straightforward solution. Good eyes on most the details and couldn't be simpler. It's locked on the verse well, but then when I look at the image I'm not seeing a strong enough connection. You know my solution hasn't changed any, but in light of your ideas I might reconsider. You're just a couple blocks, maybe less from the spot I proposed. I went for a more visual matching approach and the "letters for all to see" line of verse sounded good as a reference to an eye chart that would be in an optrician's office.
Nice work, 421!
Hirudiniforme
I believe this one is like the Cleveland solve... you don't actually
need
any visual confirmers from the image once you've found where to start. They are helpful, but you don't need them.
For Cleveland, once you got to the Greek Cultural Gardens by using the image to get you to Cleveland and then the first two lines of the verse, you didn't need to see any more pictures. The directions were clearly spelled out. However, the columns and wall are central in the image and notify you once you are at the exact spot.
For this purposed solve, once you've gotten to BPL by using the image to get you to Boston and then the first two lines of the verse, you don't need to see any more pictures. The directions are clearly spelled out. However, the O'Rielly Memorial so closely resembles the woman and design schema which is central to the image (the never ending line/celtic design - the leaves in the borders being the kicker), you are notified that you are at the exact spot.
It could be easily argued that this applies to the Chicago solve also.
erexere
Maybe It's been wrong to think of BPL as the start of the path. Where does the picture put us so that we hit on BPL and then connect to the rest of your path?
Hirudiniforme
The first two lines of the verse, just like Chicago and Cleveland. Seemingly, this works for the majority of the image/verse combos. The image only gets you to the city... the first two lines of a verse nail the starting point... if you can match them to a place within that city. You need the verse and the image.
Now that's brutal.
shecrab
I like the simplicity of your solution, but I have only one question:
"If Thucydides is NORTH of Xenophon
Take five steps in the AREA OF HIS DIRECTION"....
Why would you take five steps WEST?
WhiteRabbit
Nice one Hirudiniforme! I'll take a closer look, but I like this area a lot. It already reminds me of a couple of things, like one of the possible sources of "In truth be free" from the
Ode on Washington's Birthday
...
Let our land in truth be free,
And no longer Slavery's curse
Blast the land of Liberty.
On to victory! brothers, on!
Shout the name of Washington.
As well as the Victory Gardens, this ode might tie in with the fairy flying to freedom and its similarity to image 12 and the Statue of Liberty:
I also like its proximity to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts which houses the
George Bernard Shaw portrait
, a possible interpretation for the BPL riddle.
(Five steps from Thucydides in the direction of Xenophon gives you George Bernard Shaw.)
I'm interested in that oval playground at Mother's Rest...
erexere
I haven't looked so closely at that fairy wing before. Is that a four leaf clover shape inside that main wing?
Looks like one of those big freeway loops.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
Is that a four leaf clover shape inside that main wing?
(Dunno, I've wondered what that was. There's something there.)
I haven't actually seen the pics yet (behind a firewall) but I'm not sure if the bridge clue is a bridge too far. In both the solved verses, the final lines were a kind of step back or overview after they'd already pinpointed the spot as closely as they were going to. The Revere stuff could just be a Boston confirmer. I like "face the water, your back to the stairs" - maybe you can take a visual pointer from there. (Alternatively, the final lines might refer back to the area behind the Museum of Fine Arts, which has connections with Revere, Copley, Longfellow etc...)
animal painter
shecrab wrote::
I like the simplicity of your solution, but I have only one question:
"If Thucydides is NORTH of Xenophon
Take five steps in the AREA OF HIS DIRECTION"....
Why would you take five steps WEST?
Shecrab,
I too think that it means something else.
The pronoun "his" could refer to Thucydides...
and the area of "his" direction could be North.
..as is the "North End" of Boston...where many of the clues seem to lead.
AP
forest_blight
I'm extremely excited by this idea, thrash. You must be right! Too many pieces fall into place with the verse, and the location is sufficiently secluded to bury a casque. "Feel at home" = "Mother's Rest" for sure. All the letters... You've got it!
But where does X mark the spot? There is a lot of ground to cover. Does anything in P11 help narrow down a spot to dig? If anyone goes there, be sure to compare the stonework in the background of P11 to the side of the bridge, stairs, etc. - maybe an exact spot is indicated that way. Otherwise P11 seems fairly useless.
It is possible that the stonework in the bridge overlooking the park matches
There are some peculiar semi-circular lookouts whose railing bear a resemblance to the stonework in P11.
animal painter
Green tower of lights?
elevated central artery night shot
by
animal painter
, on Flickr
PruGoSox
by
animal painter
, on Flickr
Hirudiniforme
Just for fun:
T is north of X quote is by Horace. Take five steps in Horace's direction. Which way does Horace say to go? The answer is a funny fact I found, and can be the trivia for the night.
First correct response can help me dig ;D
forest_blight
omg... Horace Greeley.
"Go west, young man!"
forest_blight
My hat's off to you, thrash. So simple and elegant, with a little word-play tossed in. So BP.
So here is what still confuses me.
1. If Thucydides is
2. North of Xenophon
3. Take five steps
4. In the area of his direction
If Lines 1-4 simply mean "go west," then we do not need to treat BPL as the starting point. The reason T and X were mentioned was to invoke Horace so that we can in turn know "his direction." Then the simplest interpretation for "steps" would be those in the staircase at Mother's Rest. That is, 5th step from the bottom or 5th step from the top ...except that the stairs run more N-S than E-W.
Could "A green tower of lights / In the middle section" and "Lit by lamplight" refer to a now-missing lamp half-way down the stairs? If so, why on earth would BP ask us to dig next to a lamp, which could be very dangerous due to electricity?
And why "
area
of his direction"? That is a strange word to use in this context.
I understand that the casque is almost certainly in Mother's Rest Park (and likely undisturbed after 30 years). But figuring out exactly where to dig may require a little more thinking.
erexere
Here's a candidate spot.
Many elements are in the image, the "S" logo across the street above an iron gate, the globes, the double circular armature shape, the basic outline of the "green tower of lights", and the box (outlined in pink).
I like that you can stand in a place with your back to the stairs and face the water. Starting at the stairs and walking west, find tje spot where the green post lines up with the nearest lamp globe and at that point walk five steps towards the water.
WhiteRabbit
Perhaps the overall shape of the image was based on the
Kelleher Rose Garden
nearby.
I like the Mother's Rest, though there might be other candidates for the stairs in this area. The Rose Garden is right next the the Boston Museum of Fine Arts with its portrait of Revere by Copley.
forest_blight
Interestingly, "Horace" is on the BPL facade. "Greeley" apparently didn't make the cut, if ameliaelf's photos are complete:
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/127599 ... 1054JNkkff
maltedfalcon
really shes not pandora, she is a cenobite.
bigmattyh
Hirudiniforme wrote::
T is north of X quote is by Horace.
Well, Horace
Walpole
, anyway.
It could be that you need to take five steps in the direction of Walpole, which is to the southwest of Boston. (Again, I don't think it matters too much if you've found the casque site!)
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Perhaps the overall shape of the image was based on the
Kelleher Rose Garden
nearby.
Again, I think there are many objects in the pictures; however I do not think there is a picture path. I think objects help to verify the city (and in some cases the casque site), but truly all you need to find the casque site is the verse once you have determined the starting spot.
Hirudiniforme
bigmattyh wrote::
Well, Horace
Walpole
, anyway.
It could be that you need to take five steps in the direction of Walpole, which is to the southwest of Boston. (Again, I don't think it matters too much if you've found the casque site!)
I really think that the male who "his" represents is never identified in the verse. I think you know you have traveled five steps in the area of "his" direction because if you go in the right direction, you end up at a him - O'Reilly. You would immediately recognize the Irish connection and the memorial that is portrayed by the woman in the image. No other direction you travel five of any type of steps in would lead you to a male.
In reality, there are far too many interpretations and confusions for the first few lines, and I doubt we'll ever know what "his" direction is. Regardless, if you get from BPL to Mothers Rest, the verse just flows.
maltedfalcon
So if you were standing in Copley square...
and you decided to jump on the green line subway. The oldest Subway line in America ----so jump under ground and start counting steps
Specifically the E line, Count the stations.
1 Copley
2 Prudential
3 Symphony
4 Northeastern
5 Museum of fine arts.
and then get off the subway and
walk North you arrive at
bigmattyh
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I really think that the male who "his" represents is never identified in the verse. I think you know you have traveled five steps in the area of "his" direction because if you go in the right direction, you end up at a him - O'Reilly. You would immediately recognize the Irish connection and the memorial that is portrayed by the woman in the image. No other direction you travel five of any type of steps in would lead you to a male.
That makes sense.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I think objects help to verify the city (and in some cases the casque site), but truly all you need to find the casque site is the verse once you have determined the starting spot.
Basically, you need to be able to pinpoint a precise spot using either the verse or the image. I like this area a lot, but we haven't narrowed it down very closely yet. It might need a visual confirmer you can only see when you're there, but it's worth searching for it in advance in case you don't...
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Basically, you need to be able to pinpoint a precise spot using either the verse or the image. I like this area a lot, but we haven't narrowed it down very closely yet. It might need a visual confirmer you can only see when you're there, but it's worth searching for it in advance in case you don't...
Where M and B are set in stone
Beneath two countries as the road curves
If Thucydides is north of Xenophon
- These lines seem to mark the starting points. They are physical locations that are not seen in the images. These lines are independent of the image, but nonetheless mark the starting point. While the image does contain visual confirmers, I've begun to think they are not confirming the starting location or even the route, but rather the city you should be in.
WhiteRabbit
I think verses and images are a whole mix of clues; stuff where you start, stuff where you finish, stuff you see en route, ideas for the state or city and probably the odd red herring.
It would be cool to take a trip to Boston. Do you reckon you'll be going...? Is this one of the closer casques for you...?
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I think verses and images are a whole mix of clues; stuff where you start, stuff where you finish, stuff you see en route, ideas for the state or city and probably the odd red herring.
It would be cool to take a trip to Boston. Do you reckon you'll be going...? Is this one of the closer casques for you...?
You are right about the soup of clues we get in the images. I just stopped trying to make sense of them. I am in Raleigh, NC, so this site is not close. I wouldn't pass on the opportunity however, since the answer seems so clear and I can narrow it down to a very small spot. It has been annoying me that I can't do the same for Roanoke Island, as I often travel the Outer Banks.
erexere
Mothers Rest is the female part, perhaps the Lief Ericson statue nearby is the male. He is facing west.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
A green tower of lights
In the middle section
The Prudential Tower is on the Green T line between streets 2 and 3 as you walk by (appearing on your left).
Is there something inside the park that would be better as the middle section?
maltedfalcon
actually that makes a lot of sense
and that verifies what the fives steps are, which has always been a big question
maltedfalcon
So if you left Copland square
and headed down boylston 5 stops
you are headed in the direction of a statue of a man
whiich is right at the entrance to mothers rest.
you can see it from google street view right where Boylston hits the park crossing fenway.
Anybody know who it is a statue of?
on the back of the statue are 3 more figures.
forest_blight
It's the O'Reilly memorial people keep mentioning:
hxxp://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_fre ... eilly.html
maltedfalcon
Thanks, Got it now!
erexere
Why would he not say six steps and put you on Fenway instead of stopping a good distance short on Massachusetts?
maltedfalcon
if your counting cross streets it would be 8
thats why I suggested subway stops on Huntington.
cw0909
Hirudiniforme,thats exciting about the garden paths a-z,great find,here is some info i found
i wish the street-view had been better.back bay boston italian connects? all i could find was food
related,maybe it was covered and i missed it,id be totally frustrated too,about Roanoke Island
oh has anyone mapped it,for the iconic,go aways,and turn right or left,i forget how it went
--------
work that was done
One of our most significant field work projects this summer included working on Mother’s Rest in the Back Bay Fens.
more
hxxp://encgreenteam.wordpress.com/2011/ ... hers-rest/
-------------------
a set of stairs,not pos but i think these are the stairs
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/muddyriver ... otostream/
stairs off boylston street
hxxp://binged.it/w2ImOC
hxxp://binged.it/zema0I
street view of stairs bing map,you may have to have silverlight installed
hxxp://tinyurl.com/822gm2g
in case the tiny doesnt work
hxxp://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=42.346 ... ORM=LMLTCC
mothers rest/VG
hxxp://g.co/maps/jjrq4
map and info
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/map/
hxxp://emeraldnecklace.org/static/filel ... page_2.pdf
------------
2 bridges,with walking path
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/muddyriver ... hotostream
another
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/muddyriver ... otostream/
walking from MRplay area,ped tunnels under agassiz road
map of pk
hxxp://binged.it/zZuYZe
Hirudiniforme
I think BP doesn't say six steps because then:
1) the green tower would not be in the middle section, it would be in the first third.
2) it would eliminate the play on a tower in middlesex (i.e. tower in boston).
3) there was not six steps to take in 1981.
4) you would not be on the overpass of the turnpike near those who pass the coliseum.
I appreciate the maps of the other bridges, but I've checked them out to. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you are trying to narrow down the verse), you cannot reach those bridges by following the verse. Also, the pic of the stairs with concrete sides and rails is not the stairs in Mothers Rest.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Basically, you need to be able to pinpoint a precise spot using either the verse or the image. I like this area a lot, but we haven't narrowed it down very closely yet. It might need a visual confirmer you can only see when you're there, but it's worth searching for it in advance in case you don't...
I don't think the image or anything found within will ever pinpoint the site. Frankly, the images have been confusing us after being matched with a verse. Sure, you might be able to see something in the picture when you are standing atop the casque, but the image still wouldn't pinpoint it for you. Otherwise you would have to be physically on top of the image.
I think the verse gets you closer than any image would, if you follow it correctly and to the author's intent. I also don't think the verse pinpoints the spot, but it will put you within feet. This was true for both the Cleveland and Chicago solves.
I've been trying to only use the images to get to the city, and then using the verse to pinpoint a starting spot. I try to only use the verse and what is visible or named from there.
erexere
I think at least one of the verses has been stylized in the way your approaching this, might as well be Boston. I keep thinking the Cleveland didn't need a verse at all. Im banking on the one hoof pointing down to the relative spot at the base of the wall.
In this image, we have lots of symmetry going on. The verse is doing some symmetry of its own. Just go with your instincts and good luck!
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I also don't think the verse pinpoints the spot, but it will put you within feet. This was true for both the Cleveland and Chicago solves.
I totally disagree with your statement here.
In chicago
The end of ten by thirteen; Is your clue; Fence and fixture; Central too;
you lined up the trees in a grid and projected the spot where the missing tree would be 1/2 way between the fence and fixture . that effectively narrowed the dig area to a 3 foot by 3 foot spot.
In cleveland once you were in the rectangular retaining wall, In a rectangular plot
Beneath the tenth stone; From right to left; Beneath the ninth row from the top; Of the wall including small bricks;
markings on the wall told you exactly where to dig a 1'X4' spot.
Now it is important to rembember the casques were up to 3’ deep, which means in Chicago, you needed to move 3x3x3 cubic feet of dirt (27 cubic feet.) in Cleveland you needed to move 4x1x3 or 12 cubic feet,- but frost heave had broken the caque and moved it around over the past 30 years which means they pretty much had to dig up the whole rectangle.
Say you narrow it to a 5x5 foot area, that’s 75 cubic feet you need to move a 6x6 foot area means you need to dig up 108 cubic feet. A 10x10 square means 300 cubic feet of dirt, you would need a backhoe. If you cant narrow it to the spot you will never find it.
You need to solve the clue 18th day, 12th hour as they probably point right to the spot.
Hirudiniforme
The verses
DID
put you within feet! You had to do some grunt work then and move several dozen cubic feet of soil, but you were directed to within feet of the casque.
How about this as a solve for 18th day (d), 12th hour (h)? It might explain the use of "area," and would definitely be a play on the Longfellow poem and the bridge too.
It seems that around 18 stones from the start of the bridge would be about 12 stones down to the ground. Given the uneven stone-laying, I would imagine at 18 stones out you would run into a few columns downward that are 10 to 15 stones down. I'll bet only one is 12 if this is a correct assertion (though I doubt it is). Unfortunately, you'd have to be there to verify.
erexere
Considering the names of early historians and authors, T. and X., I've been wondering if 18th day 12th hour might be referring to an event connected to a date sometime after or "late" or in memorial of the passing of the 18th century, which the war of 1812 or battle of 1815. Kinda shrinks my Leif Ericson theory, but I didn't know about the O'reilly memorial until today, maybe that's the ticket. The one thing other than BPL's location is that memorial makes perfect sense to trek down Boylston St. (John
Boyle
O'Reilly, who was also an author).
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
omg... Horace Greeley.
"Go west, young man!"
LOL! You liked that, didn't you? I am still chucklin' about this one.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
... other than BPL's location is that memorial makes perfect sense to trek down Boylston St. (John
Boyle
O'Reilly).
Yes, "in his direction." The unnamed "his" that you wouldn't understand until you walked the five "steps" off in the correct direction and found him.
maltedfalcon
Has this been mentioned?
"Gillette's industrial solution: world corporation; an account of the evolution of the existing social system together with a presentation of an entirely new remedy for the evils it exhibits"
Boston
THE BALL PUBLISHING COMPANY
1908
The fairest flowers afield shall bloom on paths the martyrs trod,
Who, fighting, died, the cause of truth defending.
That Love at last may triumph and man
In truth be free
.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
Has this been mentioned?
"Gillette's industrial solution: world corporation; an account of the evolution of the existing social system together with a presentation of an entirely new remedy for the evils it exhibits"
Boston
THE BALL PUBLISHING COMPANY
1908
The fairest flowers afield shall bloom on paths the martyrs trod,
Who, fighting, died, the cause of truth defending.
That Love at last may triumph and man
In truth be free
.
Niiiice.
I don't think it's been mentioned before, but that is definitely a ringer. It's also as obscure as some of the other quotes across the puzzles. I would say that confirms that the verses truly are referencing obscure obscure quotes.
I'll buy it. After reading the full text of that section and the title, I might go as far as to say this pulls the reasoning of Pandora's box together with the verse. Do you think this has any significance to locations or path, though? I'm not so sure.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Niiiice.
I don't think it's been mentioned before, but that is definitely a ringer. It's also as obscure as some of the other quotes across the puzzles. I would say that confirms that the verses truly are referencing obscure obscure quotes.
I'll buy it. After reading the full text of that section and the title, I might go as far as to say this pulls the reasoning of Pandora's box together with the verse. Do you think this has any significance to locations or path, though? I'm not so sure.
You get that from searching "In truth be free"? that's a wild daisy chain of interesting stuff. It echos of yet another Horace, another Ball, and yet another equestrian statue, the George Washington in BPGarden which is still connected to the Emerald Necklace park system.
erexere
How about the "Feel at home" as a reference to being in a Garden? Adam and Eve in the Garden. A dam in the garden?
hxxp://www.bahistory.org/HistoryMillDam.html
maltedfalcon
Pretty sure Feel at home is nailed by Mother's Rest.
erexere
This was the iconic image for me. Ever since ATT I can't resist looking for road segments. I lingered for a long time at this little area but I had a hard time with the stairs/water orientation. Luckily I widened my radius a bit to discover the Lief Ericson statue and then a little house on a corner by some more of those light globes.
There's a lot that I'm not really set on with the verse but I have a fairly plausible spot to consider in the Charlesgate Park section of the Emerald Necklace Olmstead Park System of Boston. I've essentially built on some of what I previously posted and once again fling my Polluckian theories at your canvas.
I got to thinking about a wordplay on "all the letters are here to see" that perhaps it was saying "all the letters
here
are 2 C".
This little double circular area is easily perceived as two letter C's. This is reminiscent of Verse 8's "Grand 200" where there are also 2 C's interpreted as Roman Numeral 100's.
Earlier I posted a pic showing some stairs on the opposite side of this little house structure but then I realized it was too blind to the view of all the things that I think visually align to find the right spot by matching some combination of lamp light globes to the spheres in the image. I just discovered there are actual stairs going into one of the C's. Standing up on the grass with your back to them and facing the water (red circle), I think you're expected to take 5 steps west (Lief Ericson statue faces west and IS viewable from this position, just turn your head over your right shoulder to see).
A couple things to note, the Charlesgate Building a block and a half north has a south facing facade that matches the outline of the woman's head. The cute little house has an elevated roof design so it's technically open all around the eves. This seems to me a good comparison to the open lid on the house shaped Pandora's box in the image. House = home. I like the idea of pairing a little house with the line "feel at home" just a bit more than Mother's Rest, since everyone is so adamant these days on having less wordplay or stretched interpretation. Also, it's a fact that Mother's never rest at home...they are always busy running around to help the kids, keeping the house tidy, and nagging dad to get off the couch and help mend the chaos in the home.
[maybe that explains why I found the couch moved outside by the garbage can today...]
WhiteRabbit
I think you've nailed this one Hirudiniforme - I reckon the casque is somewhere near that wall between the steps and the bridge like you say. There's plenty of arches in the image which might represent the bridge - I quite like this one...
I wouldn't underestimate how awkward BP might have made it to pinpoint the spot though. I would expect some kind of wall marking, and probably also some maths. I like the idea of using 18th day, d=distance, 18 bricks/feet/yards etc.
* * * *
It's academic really, but was also wondering about:
Take five steps in the area of his direction
Take five, rest, Mother's Rest
The area of his direction is the north - steps at the north of Mother's Rest.
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
That Love at last may triumph and man
In truth be free
.
Unknown:
It will be ripe in reason. It will be strong in love —
The newer time, the better time, the crown of God's endeavour;
And songs of joy will ring from earth and reach to realms above.
When men shall learn to live In love together.
The earth will yield its fruitage to the hands that give the toll.
In the fuller time, the truer time, toward which the day is breaking;
And Greed no longer leagued with Power, shall claim the tyrants spoil,
Nor Want shall stagger o'er the graves she's making.
No more shall children labour to dwarf the limb and soul,
In the gladder time, the brighter time, for which the world Is wait-
ing;
Their holy feet shall press the flowers, not strive to win the goal,
Adown the murderous mart of man's creating.
And thought will grow more potent, and man be more like God,
In the clearer time, the purer time, the Heaven to earth descending,
The fairest flowers afield shall bloom on paths the martyrs trod,
Who, fighting, died, the cause of truth defending.
That Love at last may triumph and man In truth be free.
In the happier time, the holier time, the Age's harvest reaping.
Our hands of help must reach to those, the millions yet to be;
We hold the Future's final hope In keeping.
Great find MF - that must be it. It seems to be a poem called "The Coming Age".
Reminds me of the verse in the introduction:
New World Elf, Goblin, Centaur, Troll and Fay
Five centuries since their shining elders spoke
Man's ship made land. They fled his awful form
Dark ones hid jewels and disappeared like smoke
Spirits lay treasure down and slipped away
The First Age ended; the New Age began
The wind still brings the sounds of that Sweet Swarm
Now, for their Honey - find it if you can
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
The verses
DID
put you within feet! You had to do some grunt work then and move several dozen cubic feet of soil, but you were directed to within feet of the casque.
How about this as a solve for 18th day (d), 12th hour (h)? It might explain the use of "area," and would definitely be a play on the Longfellow poem and the bridge too.
although I would have guessed 18 down 12 horizontal.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
although I would have guessed 18 down 12 horizontal.
I tried that - From the pic you can count out twelve granite blocks starting from the right side of the bridge where it starts, going out toward the middle, but that leads to only about 5 blocks down. If you count out 18... well, I can't from my desk, but the proportion seems to be about 3:2 the whole way across (18:12).
In all honesty, I don't think this really has anything to do with the placement (although, I would try anything I could once standing by the bridge). I am simply thowing out ideas to questions posed.
Anybody want to take a trip and dig with me?
forest_blight
Another question: What does P11 (or V3, for that matter) have to do with Italy? This is supposed to be the "Italian" picture.
P4/V4 definitely had the requisite Greek connection -- both image and verse, in obvious ways. The location (the Greek Cultural Garden) was clearly and strongly Greek.
P5/V12 had Irish connections. The image included some Celtic patterns and the verse mentions "Fair Folk," a mainly English / Irish / Welsh way to refer to fairies, if I recall. The location, too, had Irish elements since Chicago has a large Irish population and celebrates St. Patrick's Day in ways that are visible from space.
But I can find nothing that links P11 or V3 to Italy. Our girl in P11 doesn't look particularly Italian. I find that very odd.
WhiteRabbit
The BPL is "Italianate". (See Google.)
(I was wondering if Roman Numerals might come into it.)
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I tried that - From the pic you can count out twelve granite blocks starting from the right side of the bridge where it starts, going out toward the middle, but that leads to only about 5 blocks down. If you count out 18... well, I can't from my desk, but the proportion seems to be about 3:2 the whole way across (18:12).
what about 18 steps down and then 12 blocks horizontal
Is there a lamp on the street right above this spot?
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
what about 18 steps down and then 12 blocks horizontal
Is there a lamp on the street right above this spot?
There is not... the wall/bridge does not begin immediately adjacent to the stairs. There is a good 15 feet between where the stairs lead down and the wall starts. (i.e., there is not a stone to start counting if you were to walk down the stairs for 18 steps and then started moving horizontally). I would also think this not feasible b/c it is over nalyzing the clues (I think anyways). I only offered the depth and height becuase it was a straightforward conclution, but to make this 18 steps down some stairs and 12 steps toward the wall is too big of a cognative jump for me considering the scenery and layout.
erexere
She looks like an Irish redhead in a Kayleigh dance outfit.
I like the AXIS remark. Fits with my idea to dig about 500 feet north of Mother's Rest.
Looking more closely at the globe's axis it resembles this spot in Charlesgate Park.
All the letters HERE are TWO C
Note the violet flower is in the same place I have found to be a spot where your back is to the stairs and you face the water. Walk five paces west and dig.
maltedfalcon
The top one doesnt look like a c it looks like a Q
Hirudiniforme
*Original text here removed as to not offend* Love ya, MF ;)
My opinion is this is a visual match, just like the Rose Garden, and one I'd bet BP intended us to find. So close to the site, it draws us away. I still think the images are there to confuse us and to draw our attention away from following the verse (after we use them to verify the city, of course).
RDU to BOS, $196. I've got an itch.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
The top one doesnt look like a c it looks like a Q
Here's my John White impersonation,
Hirudiniforme
Pacman remembered to eat his omegas!
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
*Original text here removed as to not offend* Love ya, MF ;)
My opinion is this is a visual match,
oh I agree it is a visual match. I just think that one part looks more like a Q than a C...
Im just not sure about the Verse link 2C I think that is totally explained by looking across the water at the paths in the garden.
maskit
Hirudiniforme,
I love your solution! I think you've really got it. I can't wait to hear what happens.
I found this shot of the bridge, although you may already have seen it. Because of the position of the street lights on the upper right, I think this is probably the other side of the bridge, looking south into Mother's Rest. Thought it might help you in some way to see it, though. Clicking on the photo enlarges it a lot.
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/49198170
I have been re-reading about this image and I noticed something. I couldn't find where it had been posted, although it's hard to believe it wasn't. The mystery numbers near the flower, if read backwards, are 02211. This is the zip code for central Boston. You obviously don't need another Boston confirmer, but I remember when many people were sure the 112 was a coordinate reference to Salt Lake City. It just reminded me (once again) that a simple answer is often a correct one!
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
If you look right above the 3 is a street lamp right along the wall as well as one right along the street.
It probably directly illuminates the spot.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
If you look right above the 3 is a street lamp right along the wall as well as one right along the street.
It probably directly illuminates the spot.
This is what had originally really make me think my solve was right... the lamp.
What do you make of the rock count? I had such a hard time keeping my brain straight hefting through those proportions. I really don't know if I took that 18 by 12 too far and began to believe my own BS.
Hirudiniforme
maskit wrote::
Hirudiniforme,
I think this is probably the other side of the bridge, looking south into Mother's Rest...
You obviously don't need another Boston confirmer, but I remember when many people were sure the 112 was a coordinate reference to Salt Lake City. It just reminded me (once again) that a simple answer is often a correct one!
Unfortunately, it is the other side... finding two that showed proportion on the same side was tough. I broke a sweat.
Check the boards... I strongly believed SLC for a while and got beat down. I'm beginning to think it was a good thing.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
although I would have guessed 18 down 12 horizontal.
oooo...
days are measured laterally... you move from left to right on a calendar.
hours are measured vertically... 1 to 12 to 1... sun moving from horizon to sky and back down... look up and down.
erexere
I like this Paul Revere connection to the site I've outlined in Charlesgate Park just outside the Somerset building:
hxxp://boston1775.blogspot.com/2010/04/ ... n-and.html
Took me awhile to find that. I kept wondering what the symmetrical double S logo was on the iron gate. It isn't drawn the same as the one in the dress, but it's close in style, the building gate's is symmetrical horizontally and the image is verticall symmetrical.
An interesting note, Sonnabend took ownership of it in 1947. Sonny Sonnabend also owned the Terminal Tower in Cleveland.
This article is a good read,
hxxp://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcon ... t=physfacp
The Somerset is mentioned in the Longfellow poem! It was with the help of the moonlight that Revere was able to cross the river undetected. Maybe the box with opening lid in image 11 contains a secret wrapped in moonlight, that secret being Paul Revere's crossing.
WhiteRabbit
maskit wrote::
The mystery numbers near the flower, if read backwards, are 02211. This is the zip code for central Boston
maltedfalcon wrote::
I would have guessed 18 down 12 horizontal.
Nice one maskit. (Handy pics on Panoramio too.)
12 has a lot going for it. Longfellow's poem talks about "the spell of the place and the hour" and ends with "the midnight message of Paul Revere". The "In truth be free" poem is all about "the truer time...the gladder time, the brighter time...the happier time, the Age's harvest reaping". It could be twelve bricks (most obvious), or twelve something else (feet, yards, meters).
I suppose you could start counting from the bridge side.
...always wondered if those symbols on the pillars might be significant...
(From the base of the bridge, pattern of five plus three-sided triangle plus four-sided square = 12)
That lamp on the right side looks a good bet for getting the general position.
This is the Richardson Bridge, named for Henry Hobson Richardson, who was also responsible for Trinity Church in Copley Square, next to the library.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hobson_Richardson
I wonder if the end of some of these trails ties up with the start somehow.
Hate to mention it, but the slabs leading downriver from the bridge look quite countable too...bridge is probably best though. It might be worth looking twelve slabs along, but trying to plot a point to dig between those two gridlines (18/12?) doesn't bear thinking about, though it might provide an alternative if digging beside the wall is impractical for some reason.
That line looks four slabs deep.
The globe looks worryingly like some kind of complicated surveying instrument, like a sextant or something.
* * * * *
One more random thing I noticed...
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
L
it by lamplight
I
n truth be free
51 letters
LI = 51
(I'm interested in Roman numerals because of the Italian connection.)
Hirudiniforme
your pics are of the wrong side of the bride... they are from the north looking south. those slabs are not on the south side of the bridge. i would think burying near them would be a bad idea anyway, as they are set there to prevent eroision as the water swells each year. to be protected from this, the site would need to be higher up the bank.
WhiteRabbit
Ah, OK. (Do we know the other side doesn't have slabs though...? I haven't found a view of it.)
Hirudiniforme
Yes... we know.
erexere
Wow, this latest discovery blows my mind. BP simply reenacted sneaking past the Somerset man-o-war, the Somerset building in this case, and across the river, E. Charlesgate near the intersection at Newbury in this case, under the cover of a bright and slightly waning gibbous moon, the letter C is a good shape to represent the moon.
erexere
The Somerset Building has this logo on the iron gate across the street from the 2C site, two S's horizontally symmetrical. I think there are two S's in the image that are vertically symmetrical. Excuse my poor taste in font type choice...
erexere
I really like the selections of the wall lamp and bird stump T shape. I don't yet see a sharp reasoning for a precision dig. If you have an X-Y defined area, I'd first assume you are looking for a point on the diagonal.
Hirudiniforme
My assertion is that 18 stones over (the blocks run completely through the wall and are the same on both sides), is 12 stones down to the ground below.
erexere
Thats so Cleveland like when you think about it.
I never mentioned that bit about the nice castle building for my theory,mthanks for noticing. Our ideas almost come together but are worlds away too.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Thats so Cleveland like when you think about it.
I never mentioned that bit about the nice castle building for my theory,mthanks for noticing. Our ideas almost come together but are worlds away too.
I wasn't talking about the building... I was talking about a shape on a sign; actually the whole sign. It would be equally as visible at Charlesgate.
erexere
Should I cit or should I go now?
That Citgo sign was there back in the day...I really didn't expect that. Nice find, it seems viewable from lots of places, as iconic as all ever apparently. I wonder if it is suppose to set us on Commonwealth.
I just came to a very good find of my own. That castle design on the box is really a good representation of the corner of 461 Commonwealth as seen from the 2 C locatiion, only the Bowker sure gets in the way.
This is a very poor pic, but it's a very good comparison if you look at other angles of the building. This is taken from the point of view just above the 2C location on the off ramp, so account for it being at a higher angle.
fox
WhiteRabbit wrote::
This is the Richardson Bridge, named for Henry Hobson Richardson, who was also responsible for Trinity Church in Copley Square, next to the library.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hobson_Richardson
That is an interesting little sidenote. Isnt Trinity Church one of the buildings we have been looking at for A LONG TIME now that may be our box castle?
I am still a little up in the air about the whole counting 18s and 12s. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE this site and become more an more convinced...I just think the lines w/ 18 and 12 is another confirmer for Boston. It isnt like some of the other lines in different V's stating 15 rows down to the ground....or....in the middle of 21, etc. The "lit by lamplight" intrigues me.
I am wondering if upon closer inspection of the wall, bridge, stairs (while at the site) will give us some other visual confirmer. Let's get this one.
erexere
I find it funny how apartment properties all the way in Eugene, Oregon name themselves after these east coat places. My company services the Richardson Bridge and Somerset Villa apartments...lol.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
I find it funny how apartment properties all the way in Eugene, Oregon name themselves after these east coat places. My company services the Richardson Bridge and Somerset Villa apartments...lol.
Hang on... Are you sure that all these clues for Boston aren't
actually
pointing us to somewhere on the
west
coast?
erexere
bigmattyh wrote::
Hang on... Are you sure that all these clues for Boston aren't
actually
pointing us to somewhere on the
west
coast?
I seem that desperate?
erexere
I follow your reasoning, 421 and agree with it almost entirely. Someone could even vibe lucky and just dig up a casque with no verse or image! Wouldn't that suck for us. I'm thinking of the TV show Survivormwhen Russell Hanz would go out and find an immunity idol without any clues...
Heck, some people claim to have psychic powers and find missing objects...not that I endorse this method. But if I'm right about all the casque locations someday, you can surely call me a Casque Whisperer...lol.
I expect you to have success with your proposed site, so dig with confidence, but please consider my spot too, if you come up empty after shoveling 3x3x3 feet of dirt in Mother's Rest. Pretty please.
erexere
Hey, notice the use of circles that are like low horizon moons. One in the upper right corner of the box castle. One in the upper left corner of the dress front "S". Notice that the box "full of light" but partially released with the lid partially opened? That is comparable to an almost full moon's light.
Hirudiniforme
In an attempt to critique my own theory, i did a little "digging" on victory gardens boston. They are considered very private, which makes me doubt further that the site is on the gardens side of the river; conversely, i am more sure of the mothers rest site.
And this ones just for you, erexere:
and the leif placard has this on the podium:
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
In an attempt to critique my own theory, i did a little "digging" on victory gardens boston. They are considered very private, which makes me doubt further that the site is on the gardens side of the river; conversely, i am more sure of the mothers rest site.
And this ones just for you, erexere:
and the leif placard has this on the podium:
Thank you. I'm satisfied with the Leif reference. That spot on the placard matches up with the line that protracts to the spot on the 2C's that's 5 paces west of that back to the stairs spot.
WhiteRabbit
fox wrote::
The "lit by lamplight" intrigues me.
Could the peridot be the sign...?
The belt and crease looks a little like the lamppost.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Thank you. I'm satisfied with the Leif reference. That spot on the placard matches up with the line that protracts to the spot on the 2C's that's 5 paces west of that back to the stairs spot.
just so you know, i very intrigued by the picture path that you've offered. i am actively trying to find ways of discrediting my own theory in an attempt to make me more/less confident with it. i thought this very much resembled the scrolling down the middle of the images dress. i was not making fun.
erexere
I have been chewing on teh idea that those T's are meant to clue us onto the piers of the Bowken Overpass.
fox
Dont get me wrong 421. By stating my doubts over the 18/12 location pointer...I was in NO WAY stating I did not like this site. I Love this site and truly believe you have hit the nail on the head. I cant wait until we get someone on the ground there and start doing some serious looking around AND digging.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Boston seems to have a lot of towers like this, but...go on then, where is it? (I was wondering about the same globe match for the lamppost...)
"With metal walls" still bugs me a bit. And much as I like MF's quotation match for "In truth be free", it doesn't actually seem to help much. But if you want to jump on a plane and take a look at that wall, I won't try and stop you...
Go already!
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Boston seems to have a lot of towers like this, but...go on then, where is it? (I was wondering about the same globe match for the lamppost...)
"With metal walls" still bugs me a bit. And much as I like MF's quotation match for "In truth be free", it doesn't actually seem to help much. But if you want to jump on a plane and take a look at that wall, I won't try and stop you...
Go already!
The building was a funeral home (JS Waterman & Son...
face the water
) from 1921 until recently @ 493 Commonwealth (thus, for erexere's theory, as he is all over the Commonwealth slant). It's the type of match that made me think the box may contain 4 separate pieces. Either way, it makes me more confident the image "confirmers" are confirming nothing more that the city and/or area, but do not directly
lead
on a path or to the site.
In 1981, this could be seen quite easily from both the funeral home and the HHR Bridge:
My theory on the last and/or second to last lines is that that they mean nothing more than "
Dig
!" Most of the verses seem to end to that effect (i.e., you already have been directed to the site and should stay there, or here the treasure sits.) For examples, "
Hush
," "
Your goal
," "
Years pass, rain falls
," "
The treasure waits
," "
To the place the casque is kept
," "
Get permission to dig out
(i know you objections to including this one)," "
A whistle sounds
," etc. They all seem to be a simple clue that you are where you should be.
I agree that MF's Leftly quote doesn't do much for my proposed site. I think it's great, though, that we are quickly building a library of obscure quotes stamped into the verses. I think the board had been previously confused as to if BP really expected us to find them, let alone use them as clues (at least i was); but, the more we collect, the more we can evaluate if they are important to the solve or not.
"
With metal walls
" has bugged me too... If you take the "
five steps
" to the Turnpike overpass as I proposed, you could easily jump down to the
train
tracks, follow them to Ipswich and Charlesgate, and "
face the water
" with "
your back to the stairs
" there. I shied away from that idea as there was no "
feel at home
" or "
all the letters.
"
erexere
With me, tall walls (with metal walls)
How's that for altered meaning?
wk
and that star lines up too. !!
Maybe you have to stand away from the wall to see the light from the lamp post. I was thinking that the 9 shape was what you would see on the other side of the wall. That is, a small block to the left of the large block with the post protruding behind.
Anyway, this is only meant as a helpful comment and in no way taking away your credit for an amazing discovery.
Now you need to find the stone with that small crater mark on it.
bigmattyh
Hirudiniforme wrote::
wow... this one is almost exact...
So where is that one?
Hirudiniforme
wk wrote::
and that star lines up too.
Maybe you have to stand away from the wall to see the light from the lamp post.
Wk wrote::
Now you need to find the stone with that small crater mark on it.
This is an amazing idea because you surely need to back up to see the actual bulb.
I was thinking I showed it.
Hirudiniforme
bigmattyh wrote::
So where is that one?
the address on an OLD postcard is 1 Raleigh St (Kenmore Square), and also gives the name of the owner. i can't find it in streetview, and i know addresses have changed.
cw0909
a couple of shots of MRplay area
the.. lite by lamplight...,could shine right on the dig spot,or could shine on
one of the stones
thurs i have more time to search,ill see if i can find,if a light at the stairs
and the wall was replaced or moved,taken out,during construction lights
tend to get moved by a few feet sometimes,and sometimes completely
removed,i know a horrible thought,after such a great find on the alpha
MRplay area
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/defau ... dd08&gid=2
hxxp://encgreenteam.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mr2.png
wk
This blog has a couple of interesting pictures.
2.The standard view of the bridge as seen in numerous postcards BUT white paint on the wall under the trees.
4. A high resolution picture if you click on it of the granite stonework. Notice the cracks on the bottom stone. These are very similar to the cracks in the stone to the right of the gem in the image.
So having identified the location I think that what is needed is to look at the stones for imperfections that match something in the image.
hxxp://pierrelouiss.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -fens.html
Hirudiniforme
The white paint is grafitti, as this is a park you don't want to be in after dark. The pictures are also from the north side of the bridge looking south. I think the site is on the other side of the bridge. I've also found what I believe is the crack and the stone pattern a while back, and you commented on it earlier. Do you not believe this to be the correct block/crack?
wk
I still agree with your stone alignment but I was thinking of what the stones might be like on the other side.
Have you noticed the kerbstones change length?
Hirudiniforme
Fold the image like a hotdog, then hold it to the sun.
There are four outward arching lines on the top of the circle, and one on each side (these two are very short and hit edges of image). The three lines on the left (beveled) can align with the three lines on the right (raised), The line rounding the interior of the bottom half of the circle matches. The interior and exterior rims of the circle match.
bevel, hmm, sliding
T
belvel?
what state is boston in?
or perhaps... what park?
I like the star over the moon... lamplight atop bridge? lol...ok, strechin'.
try it yourself if you want to see the rest of the overlay :P
forest_blight
That's pretty amazing...
WhiteRabbit
(So you're folding the page in half and then looking through the folded page...? Should make a nice bridge arch. What does the whole thing look like rotated?)
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
(So you're folding the page in half and then looking through the folded page...? Should make a nice bridge arch. What does the whole thing look like rotated?)
Hirudiniforme wrote::
try it yourself if you want to see the rest of the overlay
Yes, fold it like a hotdog and then hold it up to the light.
This comment stands.
cw0909
i know a lot of info,its as close as ive come to a 1980 description
well while looking for the light pole in and out of pk,i ran across this info
and from the imgs,i dont think there were ever light poles in the pk near MR
or stairs,just on the street,and from the imgs and movies,they seem to be in
the same place as now,the info is labeled 2000 & 2002,im not sure if the img and
movies were taken then or b4,or if its just a copyright label
-------------------
copyright credit belongs to.....
Marginal Landscapes As Critical Infrastructure: Boston's Back Bay Fens
Kathy Poole
Published in the Proceedings of the Annual Meeting of the Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture, Los Angeles, CA, 10-14 April 2000. Copyright Kathy Poole, all rights reserved
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/f ... ginal.html
---------
from the img,i would not bury anything on that side of the river,im thinking
the stair or play area is it as 421 has suggested,but im still not sure BP
would have considering the below description,but the area does seem to go to verse
---------
snip near bottom of pg
Displaced Landscape (1950-1982)
The result was the influx of new populations. Those without the money to patronize drinking establishments turned to the Fens as their outdoor bar. One cleanup effort resulted in the collection of ten thousand beer cans, but this reportedly did "not even scratch the surface."24 Plus, lack of maintenance allowed homeless people to 'construct' dwellings within overgrown shrubberies and inhabit unkempt, unused buildings like the Clemente field house.
img near bottom of pg
text to img
Fig. 8. ‘Sex Rooms’ in the Back Bay Fens.
Repository of History (1983-1996)
Making Cities
----------
to much text to paste up here.....,from reading i think small improvements,were made up
until,and when and after Kathy Poole,wrote this paper
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/f ... ginal.html
------------
on the img pg it says click for text,but that didnt happen and i have
not had time to look for the article that goes with img,there is a search
but it seems it requires some detailed info for it to work properly
-------------------
mothers rest and the VG labeled yr 2000,in the map feature MR is there in 1997
notice the stone wall around the play area
lg img
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/c ... /a0541.jpg
source
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/f ... images.php
the 2 Cs labeled yr 2000
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/c ... /b0097.jpg
source
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/f ... images.php
-------------
movies,need the quick time plugin,in the Boylston Entry movie,you can see a
shot of the stairs at the end,was shot labled Copyright © 2002 by
Kathy Poole and the University of Virginia
in the Gatehouse Area movie it shows MRplayarea with the fence and the gate
and is labeled Copyright © 2002 by Kathy Poole and the University of Virginia
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/f ... ies01.html
forest_blight
Unknown:
the 2 Cs labeled yr 2000
hxxp://www2.iath.virginia.edu/backbay/c ... /b0097.jpg
Wait, stop the presses. How can that circle NOT be the casque site?? It looks like the stone circle in P11, and it's even lit by lamplight. That would explain the utility of the picture, too -- the star could denote where in the circle to dig, if that is dirt and not concrete. Does it still exist?
erexere
I love the 2 C's site. I really must say I've obsessed a little too much with trying to pinpoint things. Narrowing it down to a general area is good enough. It's a whole 'nother task putting a shovel to it. I think we are going to dig just outside the arc. Maybe globs or stones line up somehow.
bigmattyh
forest_blight wrote::
Wait, stop the presses. How can that circle NOT be the casque site?? It looks like the stone circle in P11, and it's even lit by lamplight. That would explain the utility of the picture, too -- the star could denote where in the circle to dig, if that is dirt and not concrete. Does it still exist?
Looks like it's bricked in.
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.34830 ... 9,,1,13.15
forest_blight
I'm very excited by all the recent developments in Boston. I was (and remain) enthusiastic about Mother's Rest Park (MR), but this 2C place looks like a great spot to bury a casque, especially while dressed in a utility worker's outfit. I'm thinking the smaller of the two circular enclosures.
Pros
:
It's about as "lit by lamplight" as it can possibly be. Also, reference to the nearby Beacon St.?
From Google Earth, I can verify the 2C was there at least as far back as 1995. When was it built?
It's a circle of stone, just like in P11. Do the stones match?
One can put one's back to the stairs (steps).
Cons
:
From the photos it looks like you can't get from Mother's Rest to 2C without crossing traffic. So in going to 2C we'd lose the nice proximity to MR and "all the letters."
It's bricked in. But was it in 1981?
Question: Is there a marker, plaque, or memorial of any kind around that spot?
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
My opinion is this is a visual match, just like the Rose Garden, and one I'd bet BP intended us to find. So close to the site, it draws us away. I still think the images are there to confuse us and to draw our attention away from following the verse (after we use them to verify the city, of course).
Unknown:
Born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Holmes was educated at Phillips Academy and Harvard College. After graduating from Harvard in 1829, he briefly studied law before turning to the medical profession. He began writing poetry at an early age; one of his most famous works, "Old Ironsides", was published in 1830.
(...though perhaps it might be possible to interpret the verse in such a way as to lead to this spot...)
It does kind of remind me of the globe...
...and three spheres...
(Sorry Erexere, I know you were saying all this days ago, only just catching up.) BP does seem to reference all kinds of local stuff visually and I still like the bridge, though it's also an interesting spot.
Here's a couple more snaps...
More steps in front of this small building here to the left of the CC, and the river behind, and apparently a fence. That might give you an exact place to dig without counting stones etc.
A green tower of lights...?
Alternative route brainstorming...five junctions north of BPL puts you on Beacon St. with its green "Beacon" signs - "green tower of lights".
If you head west down Beacon St you pass the New England College of Optometry which is one of the round-tower matches. I like this one because it also has the shape of the building to the left of it. (You can see one of the beacon sign examples in this pic.) Beacon St is on the route of the Boston Marathon - "those who pass the coliseum" etc.
If you turn down Charlesgate E a couple of blocks on you arrive at the CC site.
With metal walls...Feel at home
Randomness..."Feel at home" reminds me of the song: "Consider yourself (at home)" from Oliver, and "metal walls" sounds like Old Ironsides. This brings us back to my old friend Oliver Wendell Holmes who lived at 296 Beacon St. Doesn't seem to help much though, unless he's linked to Charlesgate somehow.
(Hirudiniforme - I tried reproducing your Photoshop montage trick, but while I like the way the lines seem to overlay to form that "H", I couldn't do anything else with it. I haven't tried holding it up to the sun because there isn't one where I am...)
WhiteRabbit
Following that zipcode idea, I found a site which overlays Google maps with zipcodes.
hxxp://www.zipmaps.net
This number looks like 02115 backwards...
...which is this area.
(Right general area, though I'm not entirely sure which of these two specific sites is included. Might be worth looking for these codes in other images.)
erexere
...
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The
Somerset
, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
...
I mostly liked that this is the name of the building next to this park.
WhiteRabbit
That's line 19 - might relate to the number and "quill" on the arch.
From the introduction:
"Cradling Italy, calm as the clouded moon, dark as Tuscan wine, lay the Tyrrhenian, inmost sea of the Middle Kingdom. Upon its sleeping surface bobbed a motley flotilla..."
erexere
I wouldnt have known...these book references really tease the imagination. Im sure the idea of reading the book is helpful. Tell you what, im so sure someone will find a casque in the near future, i'll go order it right now.
erexere
(From I2 discussion)
I mentioned T-Ball because those are set on or next to the home plate and the globe lamps at the 2 c's look like giant T-ball. Theme wise it doesnt follow the Paul Revere or ancient historian stuff, but it does go with Fenway Park some. "Feel at home" can then have this meaning as you stand next to a globe lamp.
forest_blight
WR -- about fell over when you pointed out that "green tower of lights" not 5 yards from the 2C.
erexere -- try not to get away from "feel at home" meaning "Mother's Rest" -- that's the main thing making this area an attractive spot, even if it might refer to something nearby rather than the casque site. This same thing was done in Chicago, where BP wrote "Where M and B are set in stone," which was actually a block away but within sight.
The verse and image are a peculiar mix of clues pointing directly to MR and directly to 2C -- inconsistent and frustrating.
cw0909
fb i think that your right
feel at home" meaning "Mother's Rest" -- that's the main thing making this area an attractive spot, even if it might refer to something nearby rather than the casque site.
see the utah shape under the lg cap stone
hxxp://g.co/maps/hdjzf
now zoom out,see the light pole (lit by lamp light)
hxxp://g.co/maps/t3rer
im thinking like 421 that the crack in the stone is one of these,and may have been replaced
hxxp://justinmartin1.com/wp-content/upl ... 00x363.jpg
the 2c is on the right MR on the left,the 2c is near by,confirmer
hxxp://g.co/maps/k7rds
421 if you go and dig,dig under one of the cracks in the cap stones,maybe one
over from the utah shape,and of course you will be on ground side,so it would
match the img,the indent in the img next to the crack,is prob the dig spot
this should be this
the 2c is on the right MR on the left,the 2c is near by,confirmer
hxxp://g.co/maps/k7rds
this,MR at bottom and 2c at top
hxxp://g.co/maps/hgjk6
edited to correct view link
erexere
I wonder if "feel at home" had anything to do with a sizeable homeless population in park area nearby.
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
421 if you go and dig...
... when.
WhiteRabbit
If we took this route (BPL -> Dartmouth -> Beacon -> Charlesgate -> CC)...
...we need a verse clue for Charlesgate. (Although it doesn't look like it on this map, five road junctions from the BPL gets you to Beacon. The others are pedestrian alleys.)
Erexere has suggested the Charlesgate Hotel at the intersection of Beacon and Charlesgate as a "green tower"...
(...it's another possible box castle...)
Another possible clue also occurred to me. One of the most famous episodes in Boston's history was the tea party. Revere was one of the ringleaders, and the ship was called the Dartmouth.
Pandora's box is like a tea caddy...
Perhaps the leaves are tea.
The verse begins and ends with a capital T in Thucydides and Truth, and "TEA" appears backwards in the initial letters.
A
re here to see
E
ighteenth day
T
welfth hour
Lit by lamplight
In Truth, be free.
So what...?
Char
lesgate, that's what. Truth, T, tea, char.
* * * * *
This one's just for fun -
If
T
hucydides is north of
X
enophon
Take five (-5) steps...
erexere
WR, how do you discern turning left on Beacon and not right at the Dartmouth intersection?
WhiteRabbit
...only that that way works, leading you on to the green tower of the Charlesgate Hotel, the CC, etc. I don't think there are "turn right, turn left" instructions; you just look for the next landmark.
erexere
I keep thinking there are divergent starting places. Either Thucydides-Xenophon is BPL or it's Theta-Chi at 528 Beacon Street. This considerably shortens the wandering through town and preserves the idea that five steps as an instruction slightly out of order, which isn't the worst of the nonlinear verse interpretations to accept. I'm not that enthusiastic about counting five blocks or junctions. I like more the idea we take five actual steps or paces to the casque spot.
Still I wonder about the "middle section". What are some other possibilities? Perhaps somewhere between Charlesgate's East and West, basically the park with the 2C's.
cw0909
Hirudiniforme wrote::
... when.
monday looks good
high 51,cloudy,low 40
hxxp://www.accuweather.com/en/us/boston ... ast/348735
and try one of these
hxxp://video.about.com/landscaping/How- ... Digger.htm
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
monday looks good
high 51,cloudy,low 40
hxxp://www.accuweather.com/en/us/boston ... ast/348735
Unfortunately, I don't think I will be able to get out there until mid/late next month. I've got business meetings out the wazoo until then (DC, LA, DC, SC). I'm pretty antsy though, and I've contacted the people at the Victory Gardens and am in the midst of working through a pictures-for-donation deal (they will take pictures of the back side of the wall for a donation). We'll see how that turns out.
BTW - Could someone please tell me how you get to the 2 C's using the verse? I am still confused on this.
WhiteRabbit
I currently see it something like this...(see above map)
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
(BPL)
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Five junctions north to Beacon St
A green tower of lights
Head west and you get to the Charlesgate Hotel, a green tower, on "Beacon" St
In the middle section
Dunno
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
Marathon route
With metal walls
Hotel / box castle match?
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Turn down Charlesgate to the CC for this
Feel at home
All the letters
Are here to see
Probably referencing nearby Mothers Rest and Victory Gardens, maybe also something else
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
Revere
In truth, be free
Vague
cw0909
Unknown:
BTW - Could someone please tell me how you get to the 2 C's using the verse? I am still confused on this.
a play on words.. Are here to see...2C
i belive its just a confirmation your on the right trek,from the img
see WRs map
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 21#p118921
view from charlesgate east onto MR
hxxp://g.co/maps/yqbty
Hirudiniforme
I undersand the play on 2 C's, I was just wondering how you could get to the 2 C location by using the verse. WR explained it nicely, but I truly find that path difficult to swallow. It seems a whole lot has to be forced and/or unaccounted for. It leaves me with need for the heimlich.
erexere
I'm with ya on that fourtwo. A forced bit here and a shoehorn there just doesn't account for much. Every theory has a side of something someone doesn't like to eat.
The optometrist idea vs the victory gardens...I prefer gardens, but the oculus element draws me to the abstract eyechart.
The womans back to the portal pulls us into a rebus for Back Bay and puts us in the general neighborhood. The curved line in the upper right matches the turn ramp without rotation as a basic road map clue.
In light of what we've found at this point regardless of how we got there has me less bound to the idea that we have to start at BPL. T being north of an X seems more useful and BP flavored than a required start path where we see the full names written on the library facade. There's lots of other names to choose from and BP already used a strong Greek cultural theme in image 4, so why again go Greek? I think it's subtle and we must be cautious like Paul Revere to avoid being captured by a red coatted idea. The Fraternity fits a cross-verse nudge as it is a first chapter...
forest_blight
thrash -- another thing to like about the 2C location is that it requires the picture to get there -- the supports for the globes. BP was clear that finding a casque would require both a picture and a verse. The two that have been found did not strictly require the pictures (they contained confirming evidence, but then... those are the ones that were found first. Maybe the others are more complicated.
We know the other verses describe locations in the vicinity of the casque location, not necessarily
right at
the location. So the "feel at home" bit could be pointing us to Mother's Rest as a nearby landmark, whereas the 2C location is the one with the lamplight, the green tower, and the shape from P11.
Just a conjecture. I also admit there is a lot in favor of MR -- like the fact that is within sight of "all the letters" and one can "feel at home" there. I remain torn.
Hirudiniforme
Wait a minute... the two casques that were found
did not require the picture
(except for confirming a start city), and you are attracted to the "2 C" solution because it
doesn't
follow that same method?
erexere
Feel at home
Field at home
Homefield?
Electric field?
Maybe that is why the woman's hair is lifting like she is touching a Tesla coil or Van de Graaff generator.
Hirudiniforme
so close, yet so far.
try Poetry or Patriatism... i could go for them.
forest_blight
thrash wrote::
Wait a minute... the two casques that were found did not require the picture (except for confirming a start city), and you are attracted to the "2 C" solution because it doesn't follow that same method?
I wouldn't say I like the 2C idea
because
it does not follow the same method -- it would be nice if everything followed a similar formula, but I don't believe that is the case. I would say that, because it might not follow the same formula as the other two (that is, because it might require the picture in more than a "confirmer" way), it's a better fit with what is stated in the book -- we need a P and a V to solve it.
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
I wouldn't say I like the 2C idea
because
it does not follow the same method -- it would be nice if everything followed a similar formula, but I don't believe that is the case. I would say that, because it might not follow the same formula as the other two (that is, because it might require the picture in more than a "confirmer" way), it's a better fit with what is stated in the book -- we need a P and a V to solve it.
I would absolutely agree that you NEED the P, just as stated. Without it, a person would have to try
every
verse in
every
city nationwide... maybe in Canada too! With the P, we only need to search
one
city using all the verses, and one or two usually stand out.
Again though, I think there are parts of the image that represent, and are
meant to
represent places/objects/locations you'll see in that P's city. In a sense, it confirms itself (the pics confirm the coords are not red herrings).
Rather than the
pictures
being more difficult to decipher (we think we know all the cities), maybe it's the
verses
(we don't have a clue how to interpret the lines in some of the remaining verses). The obscure quotes and references are killin' us! Verse 3 only has one possibly "navigational" quote (eighteenth day/twelfth hour -- "go to the bridge"), and it's not that obscure... it looks like the rest of the verses contain quotes that are progressively more dynamic.
Hirudiniforme
interestingly...
"eighteenth day
twelfth hour"
- written by henry (paraphrase), bridge by henry
"in truth, be free"
- written in john (paraphrase), bust of john
"lit by lamplight" somewhere between henry and john.
... still churnin' for clues...
fox
erexere wrote::
In light of what we've found at this point regardless of how we got there has me less bound to the idea that we have to start at BPL. T being north of an X seems more useful and BP flavored than a required start path where we see the full names written on the library facade. There's lots of other names to choose from and BP already used a strong Greek cultural theme in image 4, so why again go Greek?
Why go greek again? Because T is Boston.
"The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveller from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra. "
forest_blight
Fox -- doesn't it follow from this theory that "his direction" is "north," and that BPL has nothing to do with this hunt? If so, how are we to respond to the "area of his direction" (i.e., "area of north") clue?
bigmattyh
forest_blight wrote::
Fox -- doesn't it follow from this theory that "his direction" is "north," and that BPL has nothing to do with this hunt? If so, how are we to respond to the "area of his direction" (i.e., "area of north") clue?
This is the part of the verse that really stumps me. I think it's important, but in my opinion, there are still some unanswered questions here.
If BP meant this as a general city signifier, then I think we'd all agree that it's a reference to the Horace Walpole quote. It puts Thucydides in Boston and Xenophon in New York. But, thing is, Boston isn't exactly *north* of New York -- it's almost directly northeast. Why didn't BP say "northeast"?
On the other hand, if BP is referring to the names on the BPL facade, well, that's another problem. The name Thucydides is actually *south* of Xenophon on the facade. So T is not north of X here, and I don't think BP would be so sloppy as to get his directions exactly backwards.
Why start it with "If"? Are we supposed to look at this from a particular perspective that flips things around somehow?
And even then -- who is "he"? I think grammatically, if you take the sentence as a whole, it has to be Thucydides. Then "his direction" would probably just be "north". But that seems a little weird. Why go to the trouble of saying "If Thucydides is north of Xenophon" and then say "in the area of his direction" when you just mean exactly what you said a second ago? I think "his direction" probably means some other direction that's only clear when you figure out where you're supposed to be from the T/X line.
BPL is such an attractive site because it's right across the street from the Old South Church, which has a lot of the image's design elements on its facade. My intuition says that "take five steps" means something a little more literal than just taking five street intersections.
I know this is a digression, but I just think we're missing something here.
erexere
Big, I liked your analysis.
I had an idea that Revere might be the 'his' in the way that he was sneaking a rowboat in the direction of a river crossing while passing the watch of the Somerset. In this case, standing with back to stairs and facing the river means to walk 5 steps in the rivers direction.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
Big, I liked your analysis.
I had an idea that Revere might be the 'his' in the way that he was sneaking a rowboat in the direction of a river crossing while passing the watch of the Somerset. In this case, standing with back to stairs and facing the river means to walk 5 steps in the rivers direction.
That brings up another good point -- the verses aren't necessarily in order. Taking 5 steps could mean something you do once you've found the casque site.
Hirudiniforme
bigmattyh wrote::
...And even then -- who is "he"? I think grammatically, if you take the sentence as a whole, it has to be Thucydides. Then "his direction" would probably just be "north".
it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
erexere
Considering the port hole behind the woman in the image and that it contains a star, I had a notion that the 2C's emulates a boat with directions port and starboard; port being left at the direction you enter from stairs which then makes the south area by the little house the fore of the "ship". Not sure how to work this in...look for the helm, oar, or rudder?
cw0909
im not sure how this helps,but thought it was interesting,a little
over midway,in link you can see a pic of a foot bridge/ ped viaduct
under the mass turnpike and the RR tracks,dude says he is in a boat
heading,north up the muddy to the charles river
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/stories/#birdsfeather
where i think the ped viaduct is
hxxp://g.co/maps/zr7sa
view of where i think the ped viaduct is from Ipswich St
and if you look behind you you see the muddy,and to your left
down Ipswich St is the stadium
hxxp://g.co/maps/3j7aq
topo
hxxp://tinyurl.com/7yh6tg8
Hirudiniforme
erin (surrounded by wings and clovers) on one side, o'reilly's bust on the other? The hand opening the box?
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
Considering the port hole behind the woman in the image and that it contains a star, I had a notion that the 2C's emulates a boat with directions port and starboard; port being left at the direction you enter from stairs which then makes the south area by the little house the fore of the "ship". Not sure how to work this in...look for the helm, oar, or rudder?
I've always seen the "porthole" as a keyhole, with the dark gray vertical bars extending below her elbows forming part of the frame of the window, and the light blue light shining through, visible behind her waist. Looks a lot like this shape, actually:
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?q=boston+vi ... 20&vpsrc=6
Even though I'm not particularly fond of the "aerial" clues (since I don't think that's how BP intended this to be solved), I think it deserves a look.
erexere
I can see that visual, but I'd expect more of a presentation of a lock or closed box to elicit that approach. Here we have a box presented in an already open state.
cw0909
charlesgate E must have went under the mass and the RR at one time
i think then you could have walked through to MR
here it is today and the 2Cs are behind you
hxxp://g.co/maps/dck4q
the otherside looking toward the 2Cs
hxxp://g.co/maps/ugzx2
erexere
Charlesgate Park was once considered the Gem of Olmstead's Emerald Necklace.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
I can see that visual, but I'd expect more of a presentation of a lock or closed box to elicit that approach. Here we have a box presented in an already open state.
I don't mean that it's a literal keyhole. Just the shape of one. A circle with a long thin rectangle attached.
cw0909
ive been trying to find the leaf,vine on her skirt, i found 2 buildings
named fenmore and on one of the fenmore buildings the one at charlesgate
at boylston has a flower vine looking carving
, it is not an exact match,
so maybe a loose confirmation,to the vine leaf on her skirt.
the one at charlesgate and ipswich does not have the flower vine carving
on the door facade
going up charlesgate from the corner of ipswich to boylston
doors on 1st building
hxxp://g.co/maps/47d23
hxxp://g.co/maps/pabh3
hxxp://g.co/maps/n7768
next building door on ipswich
hxxp://g.co/maps/ybefu
same building the doors on boylston
hxxp://g.co/maps/2f7w5
hxxp://g.co/maps/y8nxn
Hirudiniforme
Trohn wrote::
"In the area of his direction"
Can 'area' be used in the context
given to mean 'a subject of expertise'?
Thucydides was a general and Xenophon
was a poet.
What if we could disambiguate who's area we should be traveling in, using this logic, by going towards both of their "areas"... towards Patriotism and Poetry.
Or you could go toward each of their "areas" individually and end up at the same place. Their "areas" are both in the same direction.
erexere
Why not history as the area? Five steps in history...five hundred years before Columbus? Back to Leif then? Im in favor of the squigglies on the placard.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Why not history as the area? Five steps in history...five hundred years before Columbus? Back to Leif then? Im in favor of the squigglies on the placard.
history= leif? steps=centuries? ... before columbus? this is too much stretching for me. plus, it doesn't put you on the overpass.
BP used "areas" to describe respective ancients in the cleveland verse. It may have been a prompt/clue to look for the "areas" of T and X in this verse.
erexere
Okay. How about Greenland = grass? Five steps in the green land. That fits Leif better and it keeps us from thinking its under the paver stones.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Okay. How about Greenland = grass? Five steps in the green land. That fits Leif better and it keeps us from thinking its under the paver stones.
Greenland? He sailed from Iceland.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Greenland? He sailed from Iceland.
From Iceland to Greenland, I'm pretty sure.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
It seems a whole lot has to be forced and/or unaccounted for. It leaves me with need for the heimlich.
I don't think it's all that bad. There's stuff that's forced and unaccounted for with MR too, like heading west instead of north from the starting point.
The main things I like about this are:
a)
Beacon St. I don't think these puzzles only work in a mathematically precise way. Some aspects of them are more allusive. Eg:
The verse has a "tower of lights" and "lit by lamplight".
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
Revere is buried at the Granary Burying Ground at the end of Beacon St. It's got to be an obvious connection to make for someone tackling this puzzle.
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
The Rome Marathon ends at the Coliseum. The Boston Marathon goes down Beacon St.
Longfellow and Copley lived on Beacon St.
The Charlesgate Hotel, Boston's most haunted building, is on Beacon St. Erexere has been plugging this place for ages for its green tower and hair-matching qualities, and it's a ringer for the box castle.
b)
The image match with the globe and the CC.
c)
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
At this location, you can find at least one precise spot from these instructions (eg beside that fence behind the steps). At the bridge, it could be anywhere, and to narrow it down you're relying on counting arbitrary units using numbers pulled randomly out of the verse.
The most obvious "letters" aren't right here, but as others have pointed out, the verses don't work in strict order. "The sounds of rumble brush and music" takes a step back to provide an overview after the casque site has been identified.
At the end of the day, it's got to be worth a go if the bridge doesn't work out. ;)
Hirudiniforme
I agree... the interpretation is very tempting. I have to add though, after examining the exactness of the Cleveland and Chicago "visual confirmers" (the wall, columns, fence, buildings), I no longer believe the 2 C's to be a match. I don't know if I'd consider the Hotel a ringer, either.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I have to add though, after examining the exactness of the Cleveland and Chicago "visual confirmers" (the wall, columns, fence, buildings), I no longer believe the 2 C's to be a match.
That's absurd; it's like the "Ponce isn't on horseback" argument.
But I don't care whether you believe it or not, as long as you don't leave Boston without trying it...
erexere
Don't forget the Citgo sign and you might want to consider the 461 Charlesgate address as a ringer for the box face. It has the most precise match to three points, skinnier short shape to the left and gable to the lower right of main tower. It's there, just hard to see with trees in way and it only shows that way from a 20 degree angle which is only maximized at the 2C site, (surprise!). The box itself looks like the gap roofed structure adjacent to the 2C's.
The Charlesgate Hotel is now only to match the top of woman's brow shape. That one characteristic diminishes the other interpretations, so I think green Tower is something else.
All that really matters now is our confidence grows and our over confidence shrinks, then our shovels will find that sweet spot...
I've been training with the shovel lately. Listening to the BeeGees and moving 3 tons of earth with a spade has been a real inspiration. There will be casques!
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
All that really matters now is our confidence grows and our over confidence shrinks, then our shovels will find that sweet spot...
+1
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
That's absurd; it's like the "Ponce isn't on horseback" argument.
But I don't care whether you believe it or not, as long as you don't leave Boston without trying it...
To be fair... the Cleveland and Chicago sites were found next to thier respective exact visual confirmers. Ponce is not exact, and we really don't expect the site to be next to him. Perhaps the more exact the confirmer, the closer to the site? The two C's are in no way exact. Also, somebody I know believes the Ponce image to be Oregon.
On another note, Boston will never have irrigation problems again when I leave.
erexere
Hey, that ponce on horseback argument is moot. The reason for it is suggesting the use of a MOUNTain in pinpointing the place to stand when counting off paces. It doesn't matter to me if that mountain is in Oregon, Florida, or elsewhere.
wk
hxxp://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH4#Y3 ... FwcD01MDgy
This view of the 2C area and its spherical lamps has two of the lamps ALIGNED! You might have to press the back arrow away from the truck to align them.
I think image 11 is trying to show us this with the geometry of the circles and points. A line from one sphere (lamp) cuts one of the C shapes at a dot and then goes through the centre of the right most sphere.
erexere
For all we know, that dump truck will soon be the home of that casque.
Ignore the orange line with the two red dots on the image section, but see the orange line that intersects the purple line. I'm thinking the globes are out of order in relative size but they are placed in the right spots so imagine they are as numbered from the perspective of standing next to the "green light tower". I think the intersection point between that line and the back to stairs next to lamp post spot facing the water is the right spot whether it's five steps or not.
wk
There are 4 lamps. The intersection of the lines is a bit near the river though.
forest_blight
Two possible "confirmers" in P11:
1. An old theory of mine is that the following part of our girls' clothing represents the letters "AA":
So I thought, if this is the right area of town, *surely* we will see the significance of the "AA" in the immediate vicinity (sort of like "M and B are set in stone"). Right across the street from MR is the Boston Conservatory's
Albert Alphin
Library.
2. The squiggles beside the castle on our girl's box look like "BC" -- in the past we surmised this stood for Boston Common, but it could also stand for...
Boston Conservatory
. Did I mention that it is right across the street?
Coincidence(s)?
bigmattyh
Hirudiniforme wrote::
To be fair... the Cleveland and Chicago sites were found next to thier respective exact visual confirmers. Ponce is not exact, and we really don't expect the site to be next to him. Perhaps the more exact the confirmer, the closer to the site? The two C's are in no way exact.
I agree with you, thrasher. Considering the confirmed solves have *exact* imagery, we're really running low on the same, for this image.
So far I've only seen two real-world images that are exact matches for anything in this pic: 1) the alternating brown/yellow checks in the semi-circle, which are a match for parts of the facade of the Old South Church (adjacent to BPL), and 2) the "watermark" stain on the arch, which matches almost perfectly -- including the location and shape -- of an arch on a fountain in Copley square... which, if I recall correctly, wasn't built yet when BP created this puzzle.
shecrab
Not really...there are plenty.
The claw of the bird--is the shape of the hook of land in Boston Harbor.
The pattern on the girl's dress of circles, squares, etc, is the exact pattern on a sidewalk in Copley Square.
The two "a" figures are actually the shape of Copley square itself, which has a diagonal walkway separating it's two halves.
The faint checkerboard pattern on her robe is repeated on the cathedral in Copley square.
maltedfalcon
but copley square seems to be the start of the verse.
for all the images to be of things in copley square it would indicate the treasure is there.
shecrab
That's correct. Until you get to the part that says "face the water, your back to the stairs." The only place in Copley square you could do that is to face the fountain with your back to the stairs on the back of the cathedral. And that would be placing the casque smack in the middle of the lawn. It's such an exposed area I would doubt the casque was buried there.
cw0909
if T is north of X
could this be a 5 point intersection with the T at one of the center points of the X
and T would be a street that dead ends into a street,that runs E & W
here is a place for a 1978 street map
HP
hxxp://www.mapjunction.com/bra/
where to find the 1978 map on the New Flash Viewer link
on the tabs,on the top bar,choose file,from that drop down
choose view all maps in viewing area,in the 7th row of the
next screen,is the 1978 map
New Flash Viewer link from HP
hxxp://www.mapjunction.com/places/Open_ ... 1164143376
bigmattyh
Re: If T is north of X...
I wonder if we're overcomplicating this part.
On the BPL facade, Thucydides is, indeed, south of Xenophon. But if you were to say that that T is
north
of X -- turning the compass around backwards -- then the first building to the
south
is actually the Old
South
Church.
Maybe it's no more complicated than that. If T is north of X, then, facing "north", the Old South Church is behind you, to the south.
WhiteRabbit
bigmattyh wrote::
On the BPL facade, Thucydides is, indeed, south of Xenophon
It's above it, so perhaps north of it in that sense.
wk
verse 3 line 3 and 4:
Take five steps in the area of his direction
This could be interpreted as THYCYDIDES - NEPOS - XENOPHON - RABELAIS - GREENOUGH - PARSONS
This is stepping diagonally in a straight direction across the areas.
Hirudiniforme
you can take five of any type of steps you want in any direction, and the only place five steps away that will allow you to continue to follow the verse without ambiguity is Mass Ave.
There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at
Boston
, a Xenophon at
New York
, and, in time, a Virgil at
Mexico
, and a Newton at
Peru
.
If you consider recognition of the quote to be imperative, take five steps toward boston (massachusettes). all of the other names in the quote are associated with states or countries; interesting that boston is the only city. if we "repair" the analogy so that thucydide's "area"(a state - the larger more encompassing piece of land that "boston" represents) is parallel to the others', then we should take five steps towards mass ave.
verse 3 doesn't tell us to take five steps north. thucydides cannot be equated to north... they might be separate places. if thucydides is north of boston, then we should take take five steps in the area of thucydide's direction - which is boston according to the quote (or massachusettes according to the "repair"). Thus, if thucydides is north of xenophon, we can take "five steps in the area of
his
direction" without being forced to go navigationally north.
i want to emphasize that i am not forcing an answer on you, i am only trying, as others have, to show that
the
answer doesn't demand that the line/solution lead us north.
bigmattyh
Hirudiniforme wrote::
i want to emphasize that i am not forcing an answer on you, i am only trying, as others have, to show that
the
answer doesn't demand that the line/solution lead us north.
Unknown:
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Unknown:
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
I don't think I did very well articulating what I meant about this. Let me try again.
On the facade, Thucydides and Xenophon are on panels that are aligned north-south along Dartmouth street, which is a north-south road. Thucydides is directly south of Xenophon on the panels.
But: if you take the Old South Church to be a marker for "south", then you could say that Thucydides is directly "north" of Xenophon, relative to the Old South Church.
I'm trying to explain the "If" that starts out this verse.
If
you call the Old South Church "south", then, from that perspective, you really could say that Thucydides is "north" of Xenophon. So these lines could be saying, go to the one place where T could be considered "north" of X: Copley Square.
I agree with this.
Actually, to echo Shecrab's recent reminder that the verses aren't meant to be taken in order, I'm starting to think that the first four lines of this verse should be broken up into two parts.
...gets you to Copley Square, the one place in the world where Thucydides is "north" of Xenophon...
...but maybe this should be taken by itself, elsewhere on the treasure path. "His" direction could refer to someone completely different from Thucydides, Xenophon, Horace Walpole or someone we haven't even considered, but might be more obvious if taken in the appropriate context.
wk
"His" = John Singleton Copley
Trohn
If recall from my analysis earlier in my life,
I had the verse lead me into the library and
had the casque buried in the garden on the lowest level.
Yeah, just re-reading the verse (for the first time in nearly
four years) I call that from the side of the library
with Thucydides and Xenophon - five steps (up) will
get you into the library (across from the square).
You pass the map room as you descend to the basement level
with the garden and the fountain. (When there, you can face the water
with your back to the stairs - the ones you just descended )
It goes with the image because pandora is inside a building.
If you look up from the garden through the open roof,
you can see a Green Tower of lights (I forget which it was )
I have had tons of library garden images posted around these boards.
The thing to note that is on the level above you, a walkway sourrounds the
garden so the people can look down on all sides. (Where people pass the colleseum)
The garden perimeter does have columns on every side.
Check for my picture posts (photos from many different eras of the interior.)
erexere
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel like we have been overanalyzing the "his" in this. Starting the sentence with a logic statement compels us to do so, i guess. It wouldve been nice to see a "then" go with the "if". In all its vagueness i just read it to mean we have something historically significant North of the site that implies a direction. The Leif statue does that just fine.
Hirudiniforme
Update - I finally got the hookup with somebody at the Victory Gardens who is willing to take photos of the bridge area. I am going to have a phone call with her tonight and discuss the picture, verse, and my (our) picture needs. I'm excited. The woman seems super intrigued and ready to help, for a donation of course. She is a board member of the gardens and might have some good information as well. Any suggestions or requests?
maskit
Could you ask her about the 2C park area? Can you confirm if it was there at the time the treasure was buried? Also, what is the purpose of the small house/building there?
I have been thinking that instead of looking like a 2C, the section looks more like a C and G. Perhaps, it is supposed to stand for Charlesgate?
Also, can you you ask if the Victory Gardens have always been marked in the A-Z manner?
Four21thrasher, I am a believer of your bridge-wall theory. Can't wait to see what the pictures show.
Trohn
shecrab wrote::
That's correct. Until you get to the part that says "face the water, your back to the stairs." The only place in Copley square you could do that is to face the fountain with your back to the stairs on the back of the cathedral. And that would be placing the casque smack in the middle of the lawn. It's such an exposed area I would doubt the casque was buried there.
BPL gardens.
Hirudiniforme
I just dropped this on my connection at the Victory Gardens:
hxxp://tinyurl.com/7v9qyek
. She is going to send pictures to me tomorrow afternoon. She did not know how long the paths have been named as letters, but is going to have another woman contact me who has been working at the gardens for 50+ years to confirm. The woman is also leaving for Italy for 2 weeks starting Tuesday, so she will not be able to do much investigating other than the snapshots. Maybe when she comes back, if we can get her interested enough, she will do some foot recon on others' ideas (2C's, etc.).
cw0909
421 could you ask your contact,if this foot bridge/ ped viaduct,is still there
and what ever other details she has about it,TY
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/stories/#birdsfeather
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
421 could you ask your contact,if this foot bridge/ ped viaduct,is still there
and what ever other details she has about it,TY
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/stories/#birdsfeather
i'll ask... but from my research, it is still there:
hxxp://www.mhd.state.ma.us/ProjectInfo/Main.asp?ACTION=ViewProject&PROJECT_NO=600731
there was no change to tunnels or the stone rails, only the walking surface and the street. the lamp is not there anymore, however.
looks like it was to fix these problems:
hxxp://uglybridges.com/1235160
lol!
Hirudiniforme
fox wrote::
Dont get me wrong 421. By stating my doubts over the 18/12 location pointer...I was in NO WAY stating I did not like this site. I Love this site and truly believe you have hit the nail on the head. I cant wait until we get someone on the ground there and start doing some serious looking around AND digging.
The "crack" is definitively not a crack under the 18th stone as I had proposed. After perusing from the pics I received from the Victory Gardens, I am bummed to say the block pattern shown in the Images arch is also not observable as a pattern on the back side of the wall, that I have so far been able to find..
cw0909
Hirudiniforme wrote::
i'll ask... but from my research, it is still there:
hxxp://www.mhd.state.ma.us/ProjectInfo/Main.asp?ACTION=ViewProject&PROJECT_NO=600731
there was no change to tunnels or the stone rails, only the walking surface and the street. the lamp is not there anymore, however.
looks like it was to fix these problems:
hxxp://uglybridges.com/1235160
lol!
421 i meant the ped bridge in the 10th pic at this link
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/stories/#birdsfeather
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
421 i meant the ped bridge in the 10th pic at this link
hxxp://www.emeraldnecklace.org/stories/#birdsfeather
the 8th and 10th pictures are the same spot... the 8th leads into the 10th.
cw0909
Unknown:
the 8th and 10th pictures are the same spot... the 8th leads into the 10th.
421
thanks i missed that,to me that explains how BP would have went from the 2Cs/CG to MR and
past the coliseum,without going way out without more markers,could your source get pics of
the playarea when she gets back,thanks again
Hirudiniforme
there was a rather large structure (building) in mothers rest from at most 1955 up until at least 1978. between then and 1995, it disappeared. it sat slightly north of where the playground is today, and almost directly across the river from path C. images are very hard to come by.
hmm. has anybody else found this, or am I the only one still investigating this theory?
erexere
I see it, it is good sized. It looks like a boat house much like the ones I used 20 years ago in crew.
I'd say it's just going to be one of those things that we'll have to tolerate in our 30 year future frame of reference. It bothers me presently in my Basin Street idea with Image7 where there are good reference points from three different directions but something looks different in the fourth direction where a newish gas station has been built. I'm betting that there would be for sure a confirmer in the image from that area to complete the intersecting of lines needed to pinpoint the spot.
Try imagining how that would affect what you already have as pinpointing information. If you're set on counting bricks then it probably won't affect your dig. It's a square shaped object from the end and a rectangle from the side. It might be helpful to see it as a possible match to the teabox from that viewpoint. That's all I an see as helpful. Remember Revere used a rowboat on that historical day.
forest_blight
Where did you find the picture(s) of this structure?
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Where did you find the picture(s) of this structure?
google
historic aerials
forest_blight
Oh I see -- interesting! Looks like the 2C was there at least as far back as 1969.
WhiteRabbit
In Truth be free
In logic, True is T.
"In T" always put me in mind of "Tin", and the fairy flying out of the tin in the pic.
I just noticed that the sign near the spot where I think the casque is...
...has the symbol for Tin.
erexere
T for Truth sounds good. 'In T' for 'Sn' (Stannous) doesnt work so well. In for Indium works, but I dont see anything pertaining to that element. Is this the T north of X?
'Free' in the chemestry sense generally comes about when discussing an electron or a radical.
It never occured to me to consider 2 C could be a pair of Carbons...going deeper in the layers there, better watch out...Maybe we are looking at an Ethyl radical where the removal of a Hydrogen from Ethane leaves us with a free electron to bond with.
Notice the other side of the little house has a big electric panel. Maybe that spot next to the stair is our spot. Id rather someone take five steps from there and see if it brings a familiar alighnment into perspective before recommending a dig next to an electric panel.
erexere
I spent a considerable amount of time looking at a possible Jules Verne or Pandoras Box connection. Not sure I have anything solid. Might be worth mentioning the similar pattern of a circular arch design of the Hetzel bound books or his use of Farragut (east facing statue in the Boston marina).
cw0909
hopefully this can be used, as a research tool,for landmarks ect. ive looked at about 5pgs
nothing jumped out at me so far
what i did was choose....
keyword....the letter a
level of search.......When searching photographs, we recommend search "item level" if you want to retrieve thumbnails and summary description.
hxxp://rfi.bostonhistory.org/boston/def ... search.htm
forest_blight
Nice find. If you search for "mothers" there are 5 unscanned photos of Mothers' Rest from 1962-1963. Someone should get those for sure.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The next
Augustan
age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a
Thucydides
at Boston, a
Xenophon
at New York, and, in time, a
Virgil
at Mexico, and a
Newton
at Peru.
A couple of things struck me about the pic of this statue called "Science" that I hadn't noticed before...
One is the "Free to all" inscription which might relate to "In truth be free" or "All the letters". (I also just came across "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" from John 8:32.)
The other is (Charles) Darwin, who drew and studied finches.
(Note that this is the August image.)
Darwin appears below Newton in this pic. (These characters also all appear separately on the facade...there's a complete list
here
.)
(Not sure if we ever got a positive ID on this bird, if it's a real species...? Loads of bird illustrations in Darwin books but I haven't found a close match yet.)
erexere
Its a peregrine imho.
WhiteRabbit
I posted up the pic on a bird identification forum...
"I'd imagine it was based on Barbary Falcon...falconer's bird at any rate considering the perch. Or possibly Lanner. Or something inbetween."
So...a falcon. Here's one of Audubon's...
I wonder if there's a missing falcon connection then. There's a Falcon St and a Black Falcon Ave, but they're miles away. Or maybe just something snapped in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts.
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Nice find. If you search for "mothers" there are 5 unscanned photos of Mothers' Rest from 1962-1963. Someone should get those for sure.
I've actually already looked into them... they are of the Mothers' Rest house and park - not the same Mothers' Rest.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
A couple of things struck me about the pic of this statue called "Science" that I hadn't noticed before...
(Note that this is the August image.)
I pointed this out because of the peculiarity of all of the people being linked to a 'state' except Thucydides, who is linked to a city. If we translated Boston to mean Massachusetts, you could take five steps from BPL to (his direction)Massachusetts Ave... and the Tower would be in the middle.
forest_blight
Unknown:
I've actually already looked into them... they are of the Mothers' Rest house and park - not the same Mothers' Rest.
Wait... there's
another
Mothers' Rest? In Boston?
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Wait... there's
another
Mothers' Rest? In Boston?
yes... it's also on the T line. this is what makes me think that i was the only one searching. don't get all bent outta shape when you discover the other park's configuration either.
erexere
WR, I consider the dress to be Celtic. The falcon was known as a hunting bird for princes. Crossing over to a Mythology reference, the Goddess of the Hunt is Diana (Roman) or Artemis (Greek) and Abnoba (Celtic), which represent Lunar deities. This maintains my attention on Moon relatable elements. The 2C's look very representative of moons as they are partial circles.
forest_blight
Okay, I give up -- where is the other Mothers Rest? I can't find it on a map or on Google.
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Okay, I give up -- where is the other Mothers Rest? I can't find it on a map or on Google.
the pic should provide enough info for you to find it. this is one of a few "mothers rests" in the boston area, as mothers rest parks were just that - a place for mothers to stop and rest. and yes... it is on washington st. and yes... you can face the water with your back to the stairs.
forest_blight
Interesting! Looks like a fairly new park, at least the concrete circles are new. Wasn't much of anything there until 2005 according to Google Earth. Have you checked into the other "Mother's Rest" parks?
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Interesting! Looks like a fairly new park, at least the concrete circles are new. Wasn't much of anything there until 2005 according to Google Earth. Have you checked into the other "Mother's Rest" parks?
yes, and i believe I (we) are focused on the correct one. i have not brought up the others as, like you pointed out, they have no relevancy. the only one that even remotely interested me was...
erexere
Toying with another direction, following a much longer route given that five steps takes us from BPL to the John Boyle O'Reilly statue by David Chester French and then hopping on the Emerald Necklace path, passing then alphabetical gardens, and going a long long way til it circles around the Jamaica Pond and puts you near another David Chester French statue, the Francis Parkman Memorial. Behind this memorial is a little hike up to Prince Street (maybe the falcon is a symbol for Prince) and just up the road is the Philoxenia House, which is literally a place of hospitality and a "home away from home" for people of Greece.
Hirudiniforme
while interesting, i think it's a bit expansive. the other solves give clues within blocks of each other. jamaica pond is 3 to 4 miles from BPL.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
while interesting, i think it's a bit expansive. the other solves give clues within blocks of each other. jamaica pond is 3 to 4 miles from BPL.
I think it's more along the lines of the Cleveland solution. Note the box that is being opened like it's a little house with the roof being lifted off. Philoxenia is the practice of opening your home to strangers. I'm going to put aside the 2C theory for awhile and look into this idea for a bit.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
I think it's more along the lines of the Cleveland solution. Note the box that is being opened like it's a little house with the roof being lifted off. Philoxenia is the practice of opening your home to strangers. I'm going to put aside the 2C theory for awhile and look into this idea for a bit.
excellent. while you are doing so, see if you can fit the chestnut hill reservoir in... that shape has always stumped me. i long thought it was near this...
erexere
Chestnut Hill Reservoir shape? Why is that of interest?
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Chestnut Hill Reservoir shape? Why is that of interest?
the lady's neck and the castle box below it (2450 Beacon Street)...
Hirudiniforme
even better... with the columns at the bottom...
and the adjoining baseball park has been there for like 100 years. you can feel at home, face the water, and have your back to stairs.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
even better... with the columns at the bottom...
and the adjoining baseball park has been there for like 100 years. you can feel at home, face the water, and have your back to stairs.
6/10 on the legeater scale.
Hirudiniforme
i've found that considering lots of wild theories at once is great fun. i certainly learn a lot!
but considering the most likely theory most of the time, and sharing that information, is most useful.
forest_blight
Definitely a 6/10. Nice match.
Don't forget "Beacon" Street is "Lit by lamplight"... sort of.
Hirudiniforme
it's also 5 miles back on the marathon route, on mile marker 21. i explored it probably a year back... it proved fruitless. have at it.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
the lady's neck and the castle box below it (2450 Beacon Street).
...yeah, I used to dawdle there. It's a restful spot. I hadn't noticed the castle match.
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 37#p113437
erexere
I'm troubled by it's rotation when compared with a North facing map. I noticed the map to the Emerald Necklace Conservatory presents itself at 90 degrees rotated and I find the neckline looks something like a section of road to either side of Perkins St. next to Jamaica Pond.
Hirudiniforme
...None of this is that important, I just thought it was interesting.
I have been going over the O'Reilly Memorial lately with a premise that the columns could be the seats of Poetry and Patriotism, with Erin in the middle. O'Reilly's bust sits on the other side, in the right side of Erin's hair (the one that might be A. Fielder representation). It got me to researching O'Reilly a bit more than I have before.
I was reading some of his poetry and found one of the most famous works to be
A White Rose
. The placement of the falcon and the flower on the San Francisco pic immediately came to mind... so close in placement. Hmm.
Again, nothing to draw upon. I just am bewildered at all the connections between and within images that we find.
WhiteRabbit
Are you still planning to head out to Boston to look for this thing?
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Are you still planning to head out to Boston to look for this thing?
Yes! During this month... there is nothing else I can do at this point. Was it you who recently brought up the two ways to go about this puzzle (1. Dig a hole; 2. Get someone else to dig a hole)? Let's steal the prez's slogan... FORWARD 2012!
erexere
go with your gut. find it.
WhiteRabbit
Fabulous...good luck 421.
librarian
Hi all,
Sorry to butt in out of nowhere. I had joined a few years ago and was lurking, because I thought I had a Boston solution for this image. I hit a lot of dead ends and soon was certain that
my
Boston solution was wrong -- but I still held onto the hope that there was
a
Boston solution. That said, I kind of gave up on searching and had kind of forgotten about this all together until a few days ago -- so I logged in to see if there had been any developments and was glad to see that Boston is still on the table.
That said I wanted to just throw something out there that I have not seen proposed yet... what about a Providence, RI solution? I feel like you have to start with the coordinates and I see a lot of 71s (and mirrored 17s) as well as the 42 on her sleeve and I even think the 112 some see near the flower (that made some point to salt lake city) could actually be a 42 as well.
However I also see 41s and 14s -- in the frame around the porthole (where I also see the 71/17s)
So could this point to Providence (41.8239N, 71.4133W) instead of Boston (42.3583N, 71.0603W)?
That would jive better with the 41-42 I am seeing in the image. That said, I have yet to find any visual matches from Providence with the imagery in the picture -- but I have to say that although there are some close matches I also feel nothing has been found in Boston that is as close a match as they had for the solved images.
Just thought I would throw that out there to see what you all thought.
One other thing back on a Boston solution -- don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I see a lot of 26's in the scroll work on the panel of her dress, which could be a nod to the marathon.
WhiteRabbit
Hi librarian -
One of the strongest pointers for Boston is Verse 3, with its references to Revere and the Boston Public Library. (There's no evidence for Thucydides and Xenophon, say, in Providence.) Given the confirmers in this image, we just don't think it could be anywhere else.
WR
librarian
Hi WR,
Yes, I definitely understand the Boston connections with verse 3, but what 100% ties that verse to this image.
Also, which confirmers do you feel place this image for sure in Boston? The ones I have seen don't seem to be anywhere as absolute a match as the ones the had for Cleveland and Chicago.
I still like Boston as a match -- just have not seen anything to make me feel 100% yet -- that said I have not caught up with all that has been discussed over the past few years still going back through the posts, so I may have missed something...
Thanks...
librarian
p.s. Here are the 26s I mentioned... notice they're even more apparent when you inverse the image:
erexere
Hi Librarian, I'd like to welcome you as well. I think there's often the tendency to focus too strongly on any one single element and thats where we go wrong, but if it happens to be that one major link and you see a next super strong conection and another, then thats good as long as you've got enough juice left in your interpretation to support a final pinpointed dig spot.
I feel that the Boston connection is 100 percent through a BPL, Boyleston, and Longfellow connection ending in a "moon" type theme based on the passing of the Somerset warship by Paul Revere and the other men in his rowboat.
WhiteRabbit
librarian wrote::
I definitely understand the Boston connections with verse 3, but what 100% ties that verse to this image.
I'm a stick-in-the-mud these days. The image/city matches are solid enough that we'd need a pretty complete and convincing interpretation of a verse/image pair to look at any alternatives to the usual suspects. If this isn't Boston, then what is? Image 1? Nope, that's SF. Image 2? Nope, Charleston. Image 3? Nope, that's Roanoke, etc. Pretty much everyone on the forum is settled on this list.
This puzzle doesn't need more radical theories. It needs more local contacts.
librarian
Well I am from the Boston area originally and still have a fair number of friends there so I could probably convince one or more of them to do some legwork -- what do you need?
librarian
To clarify, I am not trying to suggest any radical theories because I don't have any
I suppose my only radical theory is to start afresh without any assumptions. I think it is dangerous to jump to the verse alone since it is so easy to make it fit almost anywhere. That's why I think it would be nice to be grounded by specific visual confirmations. I have been looking around boston trying to find any matches and have yet to see anything that shouts out an exact match to me yet. That's why I set the net a bit wider to start looking at Providence too, but have not see anything there yet either. Will keep you updated if I find anything.
I do think the coordinates are important and that's why I am having a hard time dismissing the 41 I see across the top of the porthole, but maybe that isn't a 41 or it is a reference to something else...
Anyway, in the meantime, I will make some connections with some of my friends in the Boston are to see if any would be willing to take some photos or do other legwork in Boston... so just let me know if you have any ideas...
thanks.
erexere
I'm a radical theory proposer. Four21Thrasher has really shook things up with some good strong finds. Pay close attention to what he's shared and see if anything really grabs your interest. I liked his attention on the Leif Eriksson statue placard. It's little squiggly embossed features really resemble some of the pattern on the woman's tabbard.
There's been some really exciting discussion on many Boston sites in the last year. If I were in Boston, I'd probably take about three days sizing up the area around Charlesgate Park and then I'd do some serious digging. I don't have a 100 percent lock on things, but I have a lot of ideas and would be willing to take the time and patience needed to "feel at home" and remain flexible enough to adapt to any "30 years since" changes.
librarian
OK will take a closer look at that. That said, looks like Thrasher will be heading out there this month anyway -- so will wait and see what he finds. I have to say I am not convinced, but would be glad to be proven wrong.
Hirudiniforme
Just wanted to add that I have since verified that the building in Mothers Rest stood well into the 1990's (from at least the 50's). For a while, it existed simultaneously with the playground. There also used to be a path from Albert Alphin Library down to the building and the park, though I cannot confirm if it had steps. I have also not been able to obtain any photographs or personal descriptions of the building or what it was. Any help would be appreciated.
Still looking.
librarian
I will take a look thrasher to see if I can find anything about the building.
I did look closer at Leif's snake and compared it to our lady's vines:
It is definitely similar, but I feel like it is such an obscure clue that they would make it a closer match if they really were using it. Again, I would be happy to be wrong.
One thing -- since this and many other potential sites in the Boston area seem to have playgrounds, it would be interesting to see if any of them had any of these letter animals. They seemed to have been in many of the parks throughout the area. See the comments on this blog post:
hxxp://www.universalhub.com/node/1620
. These could be "all the letters" and maybe even Thucydides (T Turtle) and Xenophon (X Fox) -- OK maybe now I am spouting radical theories
Anyway would be good to find a list of all the playground sites that had these... looks like most are gone now...
erexere
Librarian, good points. I like that logic about something obscure may as well be an exact match, which is a foundation point for the two found casques. I think the squiggles are styled like that of the Leif for a specific reason. I don't know what that is exactly but it looks like the squares in it's background are roughly describing a three block area. An area where there are curving and intersecting paths? Looks very much like its a a park setting.
librarian
Unknown:
Nearing the Boston Conservatory of Music, bear left at the fork to dip to a playground called "Mother's Rest," brilliantly designed as an escape from the city above. From this enclave, climb steps
decorated with an ornate handrail
to return to street level.
Nothing on that building yet.
I did find this interesting quote in a guide book though:
I got all excited expecting to see our squiggles in the hand rail. No such luck, though the undulating railing does bear some similarity to the shadows on her neck...
Also I noticed this shape in an image of the area -- it looks like some kind of border/frame. I can't tell if it is a square or a pentagon
If it was a pentagon, we could take "feel at home" to mean literally feel (i.e. dig) at figurative "home" (i.e. the pentagon "home plate" shape). Of course, we are using the feel at home already to explain "mother's rest."
I still feel like this is all wild speculation and we need way more positive matches with the image first. There is so much iconography in the image that is unexplained: the dome and leg shapes at the opening of her sleeve. The words on either arm (amor? and hour?). The shapes in her hair (piers? skyline?). The spheres, the falcon, the shape outlined inside the falcon (shape of a park or of a body of water?) etc, etc.
I feel like some of those things need to snap into place before we can settle in on a location and start interpreting the verse.
WhiteRabbit
librarian wrote::
I feel like some of those things need to snap into place before we can settle in on a location
After 30 years, if they ain't snapped yet, they never will.
Hirudiniforme
librarian wrote::
Nothing on that building yet.
I still feel like this is all wild speculation and we need way more positive matches with the image first. There is so much iconography in the image that is unexplained: the dome and leg shapes at the opening of her sleeve. The words on either arm (amor? and hour?). The shapes in her hair (piers? skyline?). The spheres, the falcon, the shape outlined inside the falcon (shape of a park or of a body of water?) etc, etc.
The border/frame is nothing more than rubbish that is piled up from the flooding of the river.
Have a look at Patriotism and his hat, and the "leg" and "home plate" may ring a bell. It did for me anyways. The falcon and his claw, I believe, represents Black Falcon Terminal. I always thought the shapes in her hair were either the Arthur Fielder head, or O'Reilly's bust on side of the monument facing the street. The strange lines above the flower, if flipped, greatly resemble the monument in my eyes.
One thing that has always comforted me when I am overwhelmed by the shapes and designs is that, in the Chicago and Cleveland solves, there were many peculiar shapes and designs within the images that had nothing to do with the solves. I recognize that many will dispute that statement, however.
Overall, though, I agree - There are no matches in this image as of yet that compete with those of Cleveland or Chicago.
librarian
Thanks for those... Though it was my understanding that black falcon terminal was not around yet when the book was published...
librarian
Also meant to say earlier that I wonder if that is a replacement railing on the stairs as I would not really call it "ornate."
WhiteRabbit
librarian wrote::
...black falcon terminal was not around yet when the book was published...
Dates from May 29th, 1986...
hxxp://www.massport.com/news-room/News/ ... oston.aspx
The falcon remains a mystery. Though as Hirudiniforme points out, not everything is necessarily relevant.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Dates from May 29th, 1986...
hxxp://www.massport.com/news-room/News/ ... oston.aspx
The falcon remains a mystery. Though as Hirudiniforme points out, not everything is necessarily relevant.
You are on point with the dates... but the ship that docked there was very famous and gave its name to the terminal. the road had long been named black falcon, before the terminal.
librarian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
You are on point with the dates... but the ship that docked there was very famous and gave its name to the terminal. the road had long been named black falcon, before the terminal.
It was a Norwegian merchant vessel that happened to be docked there once in 1953 -- What was of note was that there was a fire on the boat while it was docked there, resulting in 8 fatalities. I don't know that I would characterize that as a very famous ship that docked there.
I don't remember finding any evidence that the road was called that before the terminal, but it was a few years ago that I looked into it and I may have missed something...
Regardless it still does not seem like a solid clue at all. I really want it to be Boston, but I have yet to see a single match strong enough to definitively tie the image to Boston and it seems really dangerous to rely on the verse alone...
WhiteRabbit
librarian wrote::
I have yet to see a single match strong enough to definitively tie the image to Boston
There's quite a few bits and pieces - stuff like the Copley fairy...
...the Kelleher rose garden...
...the mapparium, and the 2C - which I known Hirudiniforme doesn't believe in, but hopefully he'll dig there anyway and find the strongest possible evidence in the shape of a small ceramic box. ;)
They're not all Chicago. Look at Roanoke. All we have is a tiny map detail.
librarian
So something hit me today about the "dome" and "leg" on her sleeve... I was thinking they were so simplified/stylized that it would be hard to match them to a real-life feature. Then I realized there could be a very good reason for this -- they could just be icons in a rebus. We already have precedents with Mill+Walk+Key and Bell+Flower -- maybe this is just another one of those?
Problem is I'm not sure exactly what they are...
Bowl+Leg
Bowl+Calf
Dome+Leg
Any ideas???
librarian
I've also still been looking around Providence, just to see if I can find any leads. So far just the coordinates... but I have to say 41 is one of the few clear things to me in that image and Providence is the best major city match for 41-42.
Turns out that Providence sure has its fair share of castle-like buildings. So far, no strong matches to the box in the image, but still interesting...
erexere
Librarian, thanks for reminding me of that, I think its a baseball homeplate and a leg of a player.
librarian
Thanks Erexere... yeah thrasher mentioned that too, though that shape seems awfully rounded to me.
One other thing, I have been looking at the squiggles some more trying to see if I could parse anything out. The ones in her dress are still a mess to me... just see some numbers - 26, 23? and that is about it.
But I was looking closer at the squiggle on the box and think I might be able to make out E. A. Poe. The E and A are on top of each other and then the Poe is at about a 45 degree angling upward.
Does anyone else see that or am I just seeing things? Of course there are Poe connections in both Boston and Providence...
librarian
urgh that should be "p.a.r.s.e anything out"
it keeps changing to "pass" for some reason even though I have tried editing it twice
Hirudiniforme
librarian wrote::
Thanks Erexere... yeah thrasher mentioned that too, though that shape seems awfully rounded to me.
It wasn't me! I really don't think this is a home plate and a leg sliding in. I did mention that I've tinkered with it being the helmet and leg of Patriotism. I've also thought the pentagonal shape might be the cap-rock on beginning of the Richardson bridge, but I couldn't convince myself.
And I am inclined to believe that the castle is probably the one attached... right near Copley, where you would see the segmented arch; and then on to the library, where you would see T and X. "All the letters are
here
to see" pretty much solidifies a Mothers Rest location for me. There are also a few nice turrets near Kenmore Square that match quite well.
You are definitely not the only one seeing letters in the box. Unfortunately, the letters are so unclear, we all just tend to see the ones we want to.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There's quite a few bits and pieces - stuff like the Copley fairy...
...the mapparium, and the 2C - which I known Hirudiniforme doesn't believe in, but hopefully he'll dig there anyway and find the strongest possible evidence in the shape of a small ceramic box.
interestingly, the picture is a scene from a story about a knight that was searching for Truth.
and i would prefer not to designate Charlesgate as a place I don't "believe in," but more like a place that only
intrigues
me.
WhiteRabbit
librarian wrote::
I have to say 41 is one of the few clear things to me in that image and Providence is the best major city match for 41-42.
Unknown:
There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York
Boston is 42, 71 and Providence is 41, 71. 42 looks just as clear as 41 to me. (There are various things that might be 71.)
There's also 02115 backwards...
It's the zip code for an area of Boston which includes the 2C site.
And there's Revere...and Thucydides and Xenophon, who jointly have two separate links to Boston...and no other image which could possibly represent Boston.
There's the statue of Science outside the library which bears their names.
There's the Italian connection. It's in the list of cities at the back of the book. Forget Providence. It's Boston for sure.
WhiteRabbit
Re: the hawk/falcon, I was wondering about sports teams and the
Boston College Eagles
. Seems the original "eagle" was actually a hawk.
hxxp://www.bc.edu/libraries/about/exhib ... gle/3.html
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There's also 02115 backwards...
It's the zip code for an area of Boston which includes the 2C site.
Where is the 5? Could be just 0211 indicating the larger locale... Could be anything. I do think it is rather hilarious how the arm of the zip-area stretches out to envelop 2C. Was this the zip for the area in '82?
Just questions.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Cynic. :D
I'll still investigate near 2C... I'm just sayin'...
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Re: the 5; it's the light outline, just to the left of the other digits; same colour, the right way up, top left of the image.
I see it now... thanks for the good description. I remember it being pointed out and think I even stated it was a great find. I, too, agree that it would not be unlikely for this sort of clue to be hidden, but do any of the other pics incorporate numbers to suggest anything other than coordinates (I can't recall)? Not that an answer of "No," would exclude it being true for this image. I still can't verify if this was the zip of the area in '82. Have you been able to? I have been able to verify that 1122 was the MSA for the zip in the 80's. It changed in the 90's.
wk
In image 11 just above the "zero" of your 11220 is a dark mark which could be where the 2C is located. That is, if you imagine the cracks or joints in the stone as roads. I zoomed in and there is a fine light brown line where the steps are.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
...do any of the other pics incorporate numbers to suggest anything other than coordinates...
You know perfectly well that only two have been solved, and that the finders of the first one didn't even understand most of it. Bit premature to exclude other possibilities methinks.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
You know perfectly well that only two have been solved, and that the finders of the first one didn't even understand most of it. Bit premature to exclude other possibilities methinks.
I meant all the pics, not just the solved ones... clocks aside, are there any numbers hiding that are being considered for anything but coordinates?
WhiteRabbit
I've suggested several possibilities...eg, 1881 plaque in Rue Drummond as a crossover confirmer...unidentified numbers in Image 7 possibly relating to things like McDonough schools...45 in the Charleston lion's mane from the war memorial...an 11 in Image 6 (FOY street number)...another street number (1204) on the Charleston clock...
Hirudiniforme
Ah yes... I forgot about most of those mentions. Thanks for pointing them out. Your War Memorial year and street numbers interest me. Good to see that it is plausible for some zip numbers to appear in the boston image.
WhiteRabbit
Image 4 has always reminded me of railway buffers, and the casque was very near a train line. (Wasn't that the "rumble" of the verse...?) I don't believe the 1881 plaque in Rue Drummond and its association with the Canadian Pacific Railway and George Stephen is a coincidence. I also suspect the 1929 across the top of the New Orleans clock is referencing the Municipal Auditorium in Louis Armstrong Park. We need more solves to support any of this though, and I suppose nothing will ever prove what BP was thinking. (All the same, if someone's holding a casque, you gotta listen to them...
)
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
everyday i am frustrated by the fact that there is pictures of 2C. what is the building in MR?!
wk
Hirudiniforme wrote::
everyday i am frustrated by the fact that there is pictures of 2C. what is that building?!
on this plan it is labelled as a PUMP STATION:-
hxxp://www.coe.neu.edu/transportation/p ... Bowker.pdf
also a good drawing of the 2C on this plan.
Hirudiniforme
wk wrote::
on this plan it is labelled as a PUMP STATION:-
hxxp://www.coe.neu.edu/transportation/p ... Bowker.pdf
also a good drawing of the 2C on this plan.
sorry, i meant the building that sat in the middle of Mothers Rest for 50+ years... my frustration is that I cannot identify it or find any pictures of it (unlike 2C, which is widely available).
WhiteRabbit
(Nice find wk.)
Hirudiniforme
I made contact today with somebody at the Conservatory who has proved to be of great help already and sounds excited to participate in the search!
The railings leading down the steps... they are replacements; whether they are replicas (as it was stated, "most things replaced were replicas rather than replacements) is being researched.
The removal of invasive plant life and restoration of the slope involved no digging. The knotweed stalks were individually injected with chemicals to kill them off from the root up. This was done in synchronization with the placement of topsoil and planting of other flowers and shrubs as to allow new roots to grown in as others died out... yielding as little chance of erosion as possible.
The building that stood in the park had metal siding and had four walls. It was not an open picnic shelter or boathouse. This was from her memory.
The woman at the Conservatory has said she would search the Emerald Necklace archive for information and photography about the building, and report back. I have sent her the photos I have of the building to show to others in hopes of additional information.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
(Nice find wk.)
Agreed.
cw0909
four21, i think this is MR and the building,i could be wrong
in this link is a good img of your building,on the pdf counter it says pg 17
img is labled storrow drive,building is in lower right corner,it looks like restroom
hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/Images_Docu ... -12585.pdf
forest_blight
Nice sleuthing cw0909! Here it is, blown up a bit:
Picnic shelter?
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
four21, i think this is MR and the building,i could be wrong
in this link is a good img of your building,on the pdf counter it says pg 17
img is labled storrow drive,building is in lower right corner,it looks like restroom
hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/Images_Docu ... -12585.pdf
Wow! What a great find, CW! Thanks for helping continue the search!
The Conservatory already provided me several pictures of the structure, and it is determined to be a covered pavilion. It began as wood and then slowly transformed to concrete, then metal, then nobody knows. They didn't have any recent pictures of the building. Either way, it's really nice to know what the building was while trying to solve this mystery. I guess I had hoped they had a picture or two that was an obvious match to I11.
cw0909
four21,maybe there was a light pole there,between the stairs and the building
and the light pole stayed for awhile after the building,was taken down
thanks FB
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
four21,maybe there was a light pole there,between the stairs and the building
and the light pole stayed for awhile after the building,was taken down
thanks FB
what is so promising about the park is that there is and was a light pole next to the stairs, standing between the stairs and the water...
I can't find any evidence of a light by the building, but I wanted to confirm as it would have been an excellent hiding spot.
WhiteRabbit
Weren't you supposed to be standing where he is by now? :P
forest_blight
I contacted several libraries about finding maps of Mother's Rest Park from earlier eras. Only Boston Public Library was able to render help (good ol' BPL!). Here is a timeline of what we know about this structure:
1921 - play shelter built in Mother's Rest
1931 - shelter visible in Bromley map (see below)
1952? - original shelter visible in background of photo (Hirudiniforme)
1955 - shelter visible in satellite image (Hirudiniforme)
1960s? - shelter visible in aerial photo (cw0909)
1971 - shelter visible in satellite image (Hirudiniforme)
1998 - shelter removed
The John Boyle O'Reilly statue appears to have been moved a short distance sometime after 1931, when the roads were reoriented. It was once situated in the triangle in the middle of the intersection, and now sits to one side. From the Bromley Fire Insurance Co., 1931:
forest_blight
Boston Public Library has once again come through for us. Here are some pages from a 1977 Fens restoration proposal. I selected the pages most likely to be relevant to us, but the full document can be found here:
hxxp://openlibrary.org/books/OL24990830M/Back_bay_fens_preservation_master_plan
The shelter is visible in the top photo.
forest_blight
The Mothers Rest play area, pre- and post-1998 improvements:
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/mothers.rest.1998.pdf
animal painter
FB,
Very
nice find of the Mother's Rest photos and info!
AP
forest_blight
And another! This one courtesy of the Parks Dept. The full document can be found here:
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/hilderbrand_zaitzevsky_1986.pdf
cw0909
forest_blight ,TY for the find at BPL,im sorry i got excited,and cant link the info
right now,but we now know this stairway and the other paths at MR did not
exists, when BP was there so we need to concentrate on stairs south of MR
and in one of the PDF links i read the only entrance was from the fire control
building area,im going to see what i can find,and put something together
i think we are getting closer,i hope during the restore,the casque wasnt dug up
new thought,BP may have came in from the VG side,as in the docs it says the
area was overgrown,so he prob couldnt see it from MR,but knew it was there
and at the time we would have had to follow the same path/route
can you tell im excited,LOL
your post where in the cap #24 it says only 1 entrance to MR
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 63#p121563
none of these paths stair existed in 80-81
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/fkyE
we need to concentrate on the area south of MR and more near the
fire control building i think
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/1lFB
forest_blight
This continues to be frustrating: The VG and MR park apparently were not visible from the same point, so "all the letters" and "feel at home" are incompatible clues.
cw0909
not finding a clear 80s img of the FCO,did find this not much help
the structure at MR in 29
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/boston_pub ... 067458241/
59 fenway boston
hxxp://www.bostonfirehistory.org/active ... ffice.html
hxxp://www.bostonfirehistory.org/
cw0909
i found a 78 and a 95 map,i dont see stairs at MR,still not sure where to dig
if the stairs are found. i looked at the Gmap imgs,and thought about the last 4
lines,IDK
hxxp://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=4.39752154956789E-06⪫=42.3458588876984&lon=-71.0917647731057&year=1978
hxxp://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=5.32561349891477E-06⪫=42.3454541983939&lon=-71.0916025596&year=1995
stairs on duck house
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/WFPj
light pole at Dhouse
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/MGPW
stairs at the FCO
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/zRzt
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Feel at home
All the letters
Are here to see
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free.
forest_blight
In case it proves useful, here is another 1986 report by Zaitzevsky, this one on Riverway:
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/zaitzevsky_1986.pdf
forest_blight
DCR wrote::
The specific area you highlighted was constructed in 1965-1966 as part of the overall construction for the Charlesgate Interchange (aka Bowker Overpass). It was constructed by one of DCR's predecessor agencies, the Metropolitan District Commission (MDC).
When asked about the "2C" construction north of Mother's Rest, my contact at the Massachusetts Dept. of Conservation and Recreation replied:
FWIW
erexere
I have a modification to my previous solve. I think it works really well. PM me if you want it sooner, otherwise I'll post it eventually, once I have time to sit at my desk. (on mobilme at the moment).
erexere
Here's my description, 1) go to the place we've all been referring to as the "2 C's" on the west side of the old Sommerset Building, 2) notice the big green pole with the square base and follow a line from that to the southwest so you step down into the double-circular area and climb over the farthest wall to the grassy area so that you're centered in the arc when looking back at the green pole, 3) stand with your back to the stairs and face the water and take five steps (paces) exactly west (the same direction that Leif Erikkson faces nearby).
This solve is much simpler than my previous methods. I was getting way to anal about little refinements and visual perspective from a mathematical point of view. Forget that stuff. Byron composed these all in a very staightforward way. The largest portion of the verse pairs with the largest and most central elements in the image. For this, it's mostly the large stone ring with the shape of the woman's garment bisecting the middle. Iconic elements such as the BPL description of historical names and architectural building markers quickly put us in the area of Charlesgate near Mother's Rest. It's always a little tricky near the end, like where to go from the Lincoln statue in Chicago's Grant Park, or how to respond to a cryptic line like "beneath two countries". There's no "right way" to really define all the casque solutions, obviously, but there are very similar thematic points in how the different pieces of information have been tied together. In this, it breaks up the path into two different modes of description: picture and word. We have to let ourselves wander for a moment before we pickup the trail as things alternate. The easiest to locate had only a few turnovers, the hardest will no doubt have an additional or two turns or references to throw us off the trail, which is an exponential event given the challenge of 30 years and our own imaginations.. Standing at the 2 C's there's too much from verse and image pointing to that specific area. I've been able to answer every question in terms of visual match and even caught the very smart Longfellow reference with the Sommerset Warship and Paul Revere's float by moonlight.
Good luck to the brave soul who goes for this spot. I highly recommend a simple battery powered drill with a 60 inch cable drillbit with the auger tip. I've tested it a bunch and it only takes a few seconds to discover an object at 3 feet. You can pinpoint that way so you don't end up digging a huge trench that misses the mark by only inches.
Does anyone need me to post pictures of this specific tool? I'm suggesting it because it's by far less intrusive and will raise fewer eyebrows as you only need a few seconds and it's as portable as a fishing pole.
erexere
There are three sets of stairs in this area, one between the two circular areas, one at the top of the larger circle and one just beyond on the opposite side of the small roofed structure. I think the lavender flower blossom is a position indicator for which stair we must have at our back as we face the water. I think the green lamp post is centered in the perspective when standing on the back to stairs facing water spot, balanced on a virtual circle made by the larger ring and most importantly, in line with the Leif Erickson statue (yellow arrow and white diamond shape) which faces west (In his direction).
Hirudiniforme
I've been doing a lot of verse comparison lately... You know, trying to align the lines from the verses that were solved to the lines of verses unsolved (structure, line segues, layers of interpretation, and use of symbolism or reference, etc.). It's been enlightening. Without explaining, the Charlesgate area has also grown on me. Here's an interesting angle, which has way too much more imagery immediately adjacent to be insignificant.
Hirudiniforme
No takers? What if five steps away was this:
forest_blight
I'll bite. That's a really good match! And it is mere steps away from our "2C" location. But has the sidewalk been torn up in the last 31 years?
I like the inclusion of the Citgo sign, given its iconic status (which surely would have been known to a young BP at Harvard).
Hirudiniforme
The sidewalk has, but the curb has not, meaning the shape and size of the slabs has not changed because they were inset. In fact, the newer slabs are connected to the older slabs about 5 slabs down. You can tell the newer slabs were laid almost identical to what they must have been prior. That's not to say the 4/9 looking area wasn't different then, but the lamp position didn't change, and the easiest way to form sidewalk slabs would be the Utah shape, not a U shape (meaning cutout for the lamp in the middle of a slab rather than the corner). Professional masons would always make the Utah form if possible. IMHO.
erexere
sounds and looks promising. very good.
WhiteRabbit
Well spotted.
Perhaps you could imagine the image as representing the "61" pavement bent round in a circle.
Hey look, BP even put "2C" in the corner as a confirmer. ;)
forest_blight
Wow! It would make total sense for the window frame to be a wrap-around representation of a straight sidewalk. What we desperately need now is a photograph of that sidewalk c. 1981.
Hirudiniforme
There are quite a few images of the sidewalk on the overpass, which contains the original concrete.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Hey look, BP even put "2C" in the corner as a confirmer.
Was thinking this was actually just a "2," with a very similar use to that of the "L" in the Cleveland solve. Research the 2... it puts an interesting perspective on the use of the first two lines.
erexere
Is there a dig day planned for this site yet?
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Is there a dig day planned for this site yet?
No, but I really want to be the one to dig it up, with everyone's help of coass. I've shared a few of my revelations in hopes that we could bounce a few ideas about the clues back-and-forth first. Especially about the formulation or the verses, the use of imagery, and the alignment of clues from prior solves to those unsolved. For instance, and interpretation of "with metal walls / face the water." I can take this to mean the electrical box, which is made of metal walls, one of which faces the water. A much more straight forward clue than "cars" or something similar. As I said earlier, what I've found is enlightening, it's just a lot to put on paper in one post.
On a side note, I ran a meeting last week with a surgeon who lives on Boylston. I'm trying to get him to get me some photos by next week.
Did you research the 2/20... route 2?
erexere
I wonder if it's as easy as standing at a spot that matches just two of the light globes to the moon and star in the central part of the image. Chicago and Cleveland had very close to casque image details centralized.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
I wonder if it's as easy as standing at a spot that matches just two of the light globes to the moon and star in the central part of the image. Chicago and Cleveland had very close to casque image details centralized.
I've wondered the same but couldn't find an angle.
erexere
using a mirrored image maybe?
Oh yeah, you should be called four22thrasher now, since it seems you've leveled up.
erexere
I say it's where the yellow X is placed.
Back to the water.
The F is for the falcon's perch which is at the location of the last post of the fencing.
The large orb in the foreground between the two flat areas (one is semi-translucent because they represent the gaps, not the stone topping of the curves) is the nearest light globe(B) and lines up closely with the tall green lamp that I find identifies closely with the outline of the woman's tabard.
Hirudiniforme
That "B" is not the nearest light globe... Your drawing is missing one.
erexere
It does seem off . I also should reconsider the translucent aspect is really not, its just reflection. My feeling is there is more of a reflection trick here. Something about symmetry is going on...like the spot between two S' s...one being mirrored. Maybe that viewing angle isn't available without being on-site. .
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
It does seem off . I also should reconsider the translucent aspect is really not, its just reflection. My feeling is there is more of a reflection trick here. Something about symmetry is going on...like the spot between two S' s...one being mirrored. Maybe that viewing angle isn't available without being on-site. .
You are missing my point... there is one of those lamps from the 2Cs
right next to
the box, which you do not capture and is very close to the green tower of lights. I agree, though, that there may be some reflection tricks at play. As far as the viewing angle, I think the one I posted is pretty on point. Also, if you are looking from a spot between the box and the water back toward the street, the fence post is in the exact position in relation to the box as the "falcon's perch" in the image.
erexere
Ok. That's a great candidate. I'm nervous about any digging close to an electrical box or lamp.
Hirudiniforme
Me too... but, the box doesn't have wires running into the ground. It sits on a cement riser. While it was removed during repairs to the overpass, the box can be seen in that position as far back as '71.
and, while I have been referring to it as an "electrical" box, i don't really know that it is much else than a cabinet. it does have venting, like something with power running inside would need, but all the doors seems to be left open. that is rust and paint peeling on box, so maybe it was gutted and abandoned long ago. maybe that is what the box is in the woman's hands... we just open the door and the casque is inside ;D
This spot looks really good in all other aspects:
WhiteRabbit
...oh, I thought you were talking about the electrical-looking stuff at the end of the road. I see what you mean now. Although, like Erexere, I'd be wary of digging next to it...
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
This spot looks really good in all other aspects:
Whoa, that is 1978? Preiss could've buried the casque anywhere in that plot which is now covered with 7 foot shrubbery!
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Whoa, that is 1978? Preiss could've buried the casque anywhere in that plot which is now covered with 7 foot shrubbery!
No, that is '04, but I've found it in '71 too ('71 shown below).
maltedfalcon
You are using the image to find the location of the casque
remember the other found images, do not show the location of the casque
Instead it seems you have definitely found a site confirmer viewable from the spot of the burial.
So now you should be concentrating on the verse to zero in on the eact spot that puts you in that view and hides the casque.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
You are using the image to find the location of the casque
remember the other found images, do not show the location of the casque
Instead it seems you have definitely found a site confirmer viewable from the spot of the burial.
So now you should be concentrating on the verse to zero in on the eact spot that puts you in that view and hides the casque.
Very nice point. I agree completely. That pattern is a commonality among the two solves. So let me propose (and make E's heart flutter)...
... with the post in the image blocking off the area you need to search... your back to the stairs facing the water. I realize this is the same thing we just agreed was wrong, but wasn't it mentioned that the cleveland solve indicated the raised hoof was aligned with the casque's position behind the wall, confirming a spot the verse alone could bring you to?
Erexere... feel like diggin' with a friend?
erexere
I don't know. I don't plan on visitong Boston. Something abojtn this casqje puzzles me. 18th day and 12th hour might be a riddle.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
I don't know. I don't plan on visitong Boston. Something abojtn this casqje puzzles me. 18th day and 12th hour might be a riddle.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Turnpike
forest_blight
Things are coalescing a bit. This is exciting. It does look like the only place where can have one's back to the stair and face the water is that little nook between the circles.
fox
The 2 Cs site is beginning to excite me as well....but wow, so close to a very busy road? hmmm. Think you need to walk around that site, see what jumps out at you, and dig my friend, dig.
WhiteRabbit
With metal walls
There's a lot of metallic square shapes in the pic which haven't been discussed much.
Considering the Chicago location, I'm wondering if they might represent the fence...
I'm interested in whether the above shows an open gate. I wonder if the box...
...could be a gate opening, or whether this...
...has a hinged top.
*************************************
Although we've all bent over backwards trying to make the verse fit the description of a trail from the BPL to Charlesgate, I think some of the lines like "Face the water, your back to the stairs" are quite likely to be a description of how to pinpoint the location at this site. I'm also starting to wonder if the opening couplet and the five steps somehow relate to the location as well. "Feel at home" is still pretty baffling.
Although the "nook" has a certain appeal, it seems a bit arbitrary to me. I don't see how the verse or image lead you unambiguously to that spot.
*************************************
It's been pointed out that the arrangement of the three globes reflects the arrangement of the three lights...
...and there are other elements which display the same pattern.
...so I was also wondering whether the loops on the box design might be another echo of that, with the box castle as the pump house. (That's a bit whimsical; just kicking ideas around as usual.)
WhiteRabbit
Having said that, the nook is growing on me. I think I'm going to have to hedge my bets and say, well yeah, it could be the nook.
Thinking about the "In Truth be free", and the T on the left...possibly echoed in the "nook" T on the right...?
I don't really like that though. I'm struggling to make some of these lines fit. Like, "feel at home", I'm thinking about globe=planet, or (Boston) globe=tome...
erexere
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Having said that, the nook is growing on me. I think I'm going to have to hedge my bets and say, well yeah, it could be the nook.
Thinking about the "In Truth be free", and the T on the left...possibly echoed in the "nook" T on the right...?
I don't really like that though. I'm struggling to make some of these lines fit. Like, "feel at home", I'm thinking about globe=planet, or (Boston) globe=tome...
Those image selections ARE two specific posts of the short black fence. I just got lucky and found the right angle. I'm not at a computer to show you a screenshot yet, but you'll find it if you focus on the spot where the globe light is the one behind the fence and next to the box. pay attention to the corner of green back at the sidewalk to the left, it matches the lower left corner square below the falcon. Then notice the position of the Citgo sign in the upper right matches the spot where the triangle appears to the middle right of the woman's dress. Use Bing maps.
I think that's just one of two or three lines that intersect at the casque point. Be careful, theres a no tresspass sign there.
erexere
Unknown:
...
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.
...
Something like this?
or something like this?
or this, Preiss perched on that box to line up the globe with the 2C's, perhaps intersecting with a spot in the nook as we're calling it?
another idea I feel must tie in comes from the "Landlord's Tale", otherwise known as the Paul Revere's Ride poem,
Prison bar?
Hirudiniforme
just forl laughs, this comparison is interesting - published by A.A. Knopf
erexere
I think this spot has all the right moves. Dig between lamp and box. I think four21 did a marvelous job tackling the verse.
fox
I like it! Someone get out there and dig! Lets find another casque.
erexere
I've changed my thinking on this since finding it makes more sense to dig somewhere to the north if that box and globe.
WhiteRabbit
People have often had this "which side of this thing do you dig" problem, which is one of the original reasons I liked the pump-house steps. Face the water, your back to the stairs, see the fence, job done. But the nature of the nook also defines a fairly definite spot.
WhiteRabbit
I'd previously thought the globe lined up with the 2C like this...
But given the distinctive shape of this section...
I reckon I had it upside-down, so it should actually look like this.
For instance, that would put the gladiolus between the 2C and the pump-house.
I quite like the idea of standing "inside" the globe as a bit like standing inside the Mapparium, which has also been discussed as a possible match. I'm coming round to the "all the letters are here 2 C" in general, especially as BP also used a "2 C" idea in the Milwaukee puzzle with the grand staircase.
Re: twelfth hour, certainly a Revere reference, but also wondering whether there might be a clock aspect to this in finding the right point around the edge of the circle. Could the gladiolus be said to be at 12pm? Or maybe 8pm = August.
The bird pecking the bubble could also be a point-on-the-perimiter hint.
Perhaps the shape of the nook is hinted at in features like the woman's nose and eyebrows.
erexere
This association looked appealing. It might help justify looking to the middle of the 2C, this is the Middle C clef,
and this is another vague comparison, a quarter rest, I'm thinking of the verse 3 line "take five steps", and the expression "take five" meaning to take a rest along with the notion that a "step" in music is a simple interval between two notes,
mysteriousnesss
Hey guys, new to the forum but Ive been working on this for several years now. Pretty convinced Ive found my dig site but have had trouble pinpointing the burial site. I think one thing everyone here keeps missing is the true meaning of the first verse. Sure Thucydides is south of Xenophon but what happens when you stand at Xenophon's square and look down at Thucydides? Thucydides is north of Xenophon and directly across the street the 55 bus is waiting to take you in the Queensbury direction. Five steps are actually stops and the area of his direction is a puzzling way of restating that one is traveling in the area, i.e. in the bus. Five stops takes you to the intersection of Charlesgate E and Ipswich st, and right in the middle of this bus route is a green tower of lights, the prudential building. And I bet you thought I forgot about the infamous double C's right? Wrong. Those can be seen across I-90 along with their globes which are for once in the correct alignment according to the image. Adjacent to the bridge the victory gardens are visible under the overpass, the stairs are a set of step like stones in front of the grass patch. "Those who pass the coliseum" are almost definitely the cars that pass fenway but can't stop because its a highway. The 18th day 12th hour allusion comes from the fact that at my dig site the two C's form what I would consider an "under moonlight" type condition. I see numerous other confirmers there but Id love to hear what you guys have to say before I post a full solve. I just love the five stops on the 55 bus idea though considering its proximity to the slabs on the front of the BPL.
PS should add that I live in Boston and work right down the street from this whole area so even if you disagree with some of what Ive said Im still devoted enough to finding this that Im willing to listen to anything and everything.
erexere
I think that being there in person makes the biggest difference and as long as you feel comfortable with that perspective to the point that theres an Ah-ha spot, you wont be guessing, unless alterations to the landscape have complicated or erased the final clues.
I'm not sure how to help you just yet, but please consider some of my latest ideas. If you are strong on your usage for 5 steps then subtract that from my proposal and see that it might yield a better spot for you.
Best of luck!
mysteriousnesss
I appreciate the input. In all honesty I believe several of my ideas came directly from posts by you on tweleve's forum. Ill see if I cant put together a solve for this because I have quite a few photos from the site. The one item still on my agenda is to find pre-1986 photos of the Longfellow duck house on agassiz rd in the middle of the fens. The architect was the nephew of the Revere poem's author and its roof burned down in 1986 but was fixed with what was described as a more simplified roofing design. Ill let you know soon as it seems like you're one of the few still certain this casque is in Boston
forest_blight
Welcome aboard, mysteriousnesss. I think *everyone's* pretty much on board with this casque being in Boston. The only question mark is where X marks the spot. I like your ideas, and it's great to have a local on the ground.
maltedfalcon
I was pretty much under the impression defintley in boston
But so far the best translation I have ever seen is @ the mothers rest park
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
I was pretty much under the impression defintley in boston
But so far the best translation I have ever seen is @ the mothers rest park
Woot!
Welcome, mysteriousness! So, where's your spot? I don't think you'll find a person here that doesn't believe we're really close.
I've always been perplexed by the globes. Because there are 5 of them organized in a zig-zag pattern, there are MANY places to stand from which they align. There are so many in fact, I'd venture to say that while you may see the globes properly aligned at the dig spot, you wouldn't be able to find the dig spot by aligning the globes alone.
I like your bus route interpretation... After several years, what made it dawn on you?
I've done a bit of "work" on the Ipswich St. intersection there at Charlesgate. When doing so, I always interpreted the train to be "with metal walls," and interpreted separately from "near those who pass the coliseum." After all, you are already near those who pass the coliseum, why would BP waste the next line expounding? I was unable to reconcile "your back to the stairs" at any point on the tracks nearby. I gave up.
Have you looked around under the middle of the overpass between the two support walls? I know there used to be some lamps that hung underneath the road (until some construction), and I'd wondered if they were still there?
mysteriousnesss
Maybe some of these will help clarify some of your collective questions about my thoughts. I don't have a site to hyperlink to so I had to upload them to a free one. Let me know if anyone has any problems seeing them. The stairs I was referring to are in the third image. The globes are seen from a site on the other side of the stairs where an old fence once stood, which I still have a google image of. Let me know what you guys think because I can investigate other ideas and or take more photos if you think it would be helpful.
Hirudiniforme
Those "stairs" are relatively new, no? I'm pretty sure they were poured about 7 years ago.
mysteriousnesss
I thought the same thing at first but having been to the site you can see where the "stairs" connect to the overpass and how old the cracking cement is thats holding it together. After close examination of historic aerials and the stone itself it looks like the rounded caps were the most recent addition. The earlier photos of the site I can find are admittedly from 2001 but so far I haven't been able to disprove their existence. In addition, the paint is stripped to reveal granite on the backside of the steps which have a semi-new gray paint on them. So in my mind the non-rounded portion is original and also more stair-like as well. My biggest thing was the orientation of the lamps (which are not seen in the best photo) along with the line of sight to the victory gardens. In addition the arc on the side of the charlesgate hotel is visible, along with the weathervane with I always thought was either the falcon's claw or the women's shading around the eyes. Again just let me know if theres anything you want closer shots of because Ill be in that area tomorrow afternoon. I also have several sets of photos from when I was investigating the area directly in front of the hotel and the two circles opposite the sommersett.
Hirudiniforme
I dunno... I see rebar, and an unfinished wall being poured in segments (as it should/would have been). i can see the "rebar" a bit in your picture... what is it? it also looks like mortar was filled but not properly adheased on the right-most, tallest column; or, the space has not yet been filled. it looks like the original curb lies under the missing 5th step, meaning the wall was placed on top of the curbstone as it ran to the wall. it looks like the bridge does not come down perfectly straight, and that they tried to start the correction by setting the steps 90 degrees. You are there... can you tell for sure this is all old? Is only the last step new? The rest of the steps and the mortar are just old as all? Or was the last step lost at some point and was replaced?
erexere
Hey, nice looking litte area. Looks kinda like the fence and fixture area in Chicago. Can you see the Citgo sign from anywhere along that wall?
erexere
I've been "feeling at home" so much that I considered looking at this Dorothy and her silver shoes by W.W. Denslow, illustrator of the original Wizard of Oz book. Is there "no place like home" going on here with the baseball associations I've been leaning towards lately? I'm not so much seeing any silver slipper or "ruby slipper" action here but I do ask myself how I might use this image association as a clue and so far one idea is sticking with me: a cyclone. The short black "cyclone" fence that surrounds my particular area of interest near the overpass.
Perhaps Preiss used the Oz theme elsewhere in this treasure hunt...
cw0909
hi mysteriousnesss welcome,very nice to have an interested local,i hope we can help
you find the casque
have these stairs always been here,IE 80-81,and are they the stairs from the boylston
bridge and fenway intersection
https://foursquare.com/v/mothers-rest-p ... cd45ebe364
and when you have the time,could you do a 360 view from standing in the center
of the playarea,would be cool if you could do it in video,and post to youtube,imgs
would be great too,one more thing,a run down on your interpretation from the V
line by line,i think your knowledge of area,will make for a flood of ideas from your
interpretation,and prob get a casque found
thank you
boylston bridge
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/Nfn4z
flash earth MR
hxxp://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.34561 ... 95&src=msl
erexere
Dorothy searched for the Emerald City in order to ask for help from the Wizard of Oz.
We search the Emerald Necklace in order to find a casque.
cw0909
Unknown:
have these stairs always been here,IE 80-81,and are they the stairs from the boylston
bridge and fenway intersection
https://foursquare.com/v/mothers-rest-p ... cd45ebe364
hmmm, scratch that i didnt know, there was two MR park in same city
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/xWT30
erexere
I found this photo, maybe the resolution is good enough to see that the bricks are either new or old, hard to say.
forest_blight
Question for the locals: Looking down on the C's from above, is it possible that the pattern of seams and cracks matches the edge of the window in P11?
rookhunter
Here's my question: What is on the other side of those circles? If from the base of the stairs you face the water and take five steps, where does that put you? Perhaps there are markings on the other side of the wall like in the archway in the image.
jsp
rookhunter wrote::
Here's my question: What is on the other side of those circles? If from the base of the stairs you face the water and take five steps, where does that put you? Perhaps there are markings on the other side of the wall like in the archway in the image.
I was there Friday night. I'd like to go back during the day but here's what I can tell you in the meantime:
The layout of it is such that if you're facing the water and your back is to the stairs, you are in one of two situations:
1. You are inside the circle and can't dig, because of the tiles on the ground, or
2. You are outside the circle and basically standing on a small muddy slope. BP wouldn't have been stupid enough to bury the casque there.
That said: The circles are indeed very evocative of those in the image, and the "green tower of lights" is the first one I've seen that actually seems to fit the description, so while I'm still not positive about Boston, I'm encouraged. I'll try to go for a stroll around the Fenway Victory Garden sometime soon and see if anything jumps out.
erexere
jsp, I have a spot and solution that should work, give me a few minutes to draw a map.
erexere
I'm drawing what looks like an intersecting set of red lines. One line is designed to be through the lamp and the box that is apparently no longer there. I don't know for sure, but I believe standing ON that box like a bird on it's perch is the only way you can see ALL the letters to the CITGO sign.
Seeing letters continues to be the key when finding the second red line intersecting the gate on that short fence line and the gate entrance of the Somerset across the street, which is close enough to make a good precision type locating reference. Standing at that spot you're back is to the small stairs in that circle and facing a the water as it actually comes up to the edge of the triangle point tip of lawn to the north of you're position.
I think I've taken into account all the possibilities I can imagine and ruled out lots of old wonky ideas.
Have a look in person and see if I'm right about that being a gate on the short black fence. I'm not sure from the google street view but I thought I could see hinges.
Peace, and good luck,
Eric
PS, yes, you'll see there's a bush in your way...I guess that's what 30 years does to a treasure hunt. Same thing happened to Egbert in Cleveland.
jsp
erexere wrote::
I'm drawing what looks like an intersecting set of red lines. One line is designed to be through the lamp and the box that is apparently no longer there. I don't know for sure, but I believe standing ON that box like a bird on it's perch is the only way you can see ALL the letters to the CITGO sign.
Seeing letters continues to be the key when finding the second red line intersecting the gate on that short fence line and the gate entrance of the Somerset across the street, which is close enough to make a good precision type locating reference. Standing at that spot you're back is to the small stairs in that circle and facing a the water as it actually comes up to the edge of the triangle point tip of lawn to the north of you're position.
I think I've taken into account all the possibilities I can imagine and ruled out lots of old wonky ideas.
Have a look in person and see if I'm right about that being a gate on the short black fence. I'm not sure from the google street view but I thought I could see hinges.
Peace, and good luck,
Eric
PS, yes, you'll see there's a bush in your way...I guess that's what 30 years does to a treasure hunt. Same thing happened to Egbert in Cleveland.
I can go back to look again, but here's what I can tell you from memory:
1. There's no gate on the short black fence. It's just a fence.
2. Going over the fence would put you next to a bush (which, as you mention, is not a problem), but you're also pretty much standing on mud (which is).
erexere
I've never known what that box was for. Could it have been a "water" related piece of equipment, like a water pump?
WhiteRabbit
jsp wrote::
The layout of it is such that if you're facing the water and your back is to the stairs, you are in one of two situations:
1. You are inside the circle and can't dig, because of the tiles on the ground, or
2. You are outside the circle and basically standing on a small muddy slope. BP wouldn't have been stupid enough to bury the casque there.
Here.
X marks the spot, standing with your back to the stairs, buried beside the fence. Does the arrow point to a gate?
There's no doubt about Charlesgate being the right area IMHO. It's about the first thing that the majority of the people on this forum have agreed on in years. ;)
jsp
WhiteRabbit wrote::
X marks the spot, standing with your back to the stairs, buried beside the fence. Does the arrow point to a gate?
Nope. Just a fence.
erexere
Its time to celebrate folks. I'm about done with posting any further drivel. My brain feels like its making an audible slosh and flush sound. I guess I'm tired out and out of new stuff to add. Its been a catharsis for me to explore every avenue that makes a lick of sense even in the most distant sense.
Jsp, I forgot to sah I'm still uncertain about wbere the 5 steps comes in. Could have been earlier with street ju ctions. Could be later with actual steps. That's about 15 feet. I wonder if that is about the distance from box to intersection with the perpendicular center of the SS gate.
erexere
Try this as an attempt to integrate the 5 steps (5 meters), the perpendicular SS-gate, the stairs, the lamp.
I'm considering the direction from the stairs to lamp as "in the area of his direction". I believe "his" is Leiv Erickson.
Leiv is the alternate spelling of Leif.
LeiV = "Lei" + "vee" = homonym of "levee" or "the water". Its worth considering the purple flower represents a lei orchid. Creating a name rebus like the bell+flower did in Cleveland. Coolness.
I looked for images of blue orchids, I can't tell if that's what this is, but if it is then there's a good case for a rebus from Leiv to make "Levee" as the object for the line regarding "his direction" and/or the line "face the water".
I believe we face Leif and the lamp is what's 5 steps in his direction.
erexere
Here's an alternative. It puts you centered on the circle just across from the green light post.
1. stand in the circle, find the spot that points directly at the Leif Eriksson statue
2. step over the wall and take 5 steps towards Leiv, "Levee" = water, (about 15 feet through the dense bushes)
3. dig.
WhiteRabbit
The flowers in the images are generally the birth flower for the month, corresponding with the gem. This is August -> Gladiolus.
erexere
Ok. I like the gladiolas. I wonder if lei are made from those too.
I've broken the poem down to only a few key points. The image becomes congruent with my theory in a few encouraging ways.
Stand with back to circle.
Walk in the 1 o'clock direction, the globe on the axis has a 1 o'clock position.
Falcon and Leif both face west.
After five steps there are two letter S's, those positioned vertically on the dress and those directly across the road on the gate.
I think those are plain and helpful visual cues.
This is IT!!!
erexere
There's lots of subtleties in our evaluation of this image and verse. No one thing stands out so strongly that anyone is absolutely sure of anything.
If I were to choose a strong point, I like the side-by-side circles the most. The artistry seems to partially conceal or prevent any perfect matches to anything. It's somewhat refreshing that so many partial things seem to converge on this likeliest of spots.
I think everyone will soon find agreement on how to best interpret the verse and where to dig once they evaluate closely each of the three stair options,
Stairs A: south of the other two, attached to the house structure
Stairs B: stepping down to the larger of the two circular areas
Stairs C: northern set, stepping down to the smaller circular area
Either we use "five steps" in some direction on one of these or we don't. If we don't, then we are assuming we dig directly at the stairs or adjacent as we face "water". I see six options for "water",
Water A: the fens waterway
Water B: the Somerset Swimming pool, just inside it's main gate
Water C: Charles River to the North
Water D: the Bay to the east
Water E: "Levee", "Lei" + "V" Ericksson statue, word play/rebus based on evidence of multiple flower objects (see lines around flower) representing a flower lei idea.
Water F: "watt" + "er", something which uses electricity such as a light bulb or electric panel.
Consider the lines directly after "Feel at home", "All the letter / Are here to see". If we take the side-by-side circles as "2C" as a "to see" word play, how does that directly follow "feel at home"? Current favorite is attaching that line to Mothers Rest which is at a different location a couple blocks to the south. I think of that as an inconsistency, but if we allow it, it means there's a bit of a wandering component to figure in and then it stretches the rest of the verse interpretation to a thinner and less friendly scale. If we take the letters as the "Citgo" sign and we want to still consider the visual clue from the image of the side-by-side circles, then we are limited to the northern tip of the area because Citgo becomes obscured by a building on W. Charlesgate. This would make Stair C the nearest available fit. "See it go" in 1980 was a local color connection to hitting home runs at Fenway Park. It then follows the "feel at home" line in a different context where it may be reference to the baseball home plate". The inconsistency here is pretending you are hitting a homer eastward rather than northward as it is in Fenway. This is interesting to consider given the first two lines of verse create a scenario "If X is north of Y". We are faced with having to consider Citgo in a scenario which differs from it's traditional northward focus.
There are other ways to consider the home and letters ideas but the options become less consistent with anything else in the image or verse. Currently I'm in favor of some stereotypical ideas such as red hair = viking, "one who comes from the fjords", fjords are narrow, deep, crack like sea-inlets. I see the purple flower amidst several flower like outlines, suggesting depth or multiples, possibly it fits the lei necklace which contains a quantity of flower, or a whole flowering bush, or some other multiple consideration.
I think once a person is at the site and armed with these options, they'll be able to make a better judgement for what fits best. I think there's room to consider a lot of places along the fen, but nothing fits better than the side-by-side circles nearest the viking and the building of the same name as the warship in the Somerset poem. Oh that reminds me, I revisited the idea that Thucydides and Xenophon were chosen to represent letters "T" ans "X" for the reason that the British flag or Union Jack as it's known in maritime terminology, is designed as a union of St. George's Cross of England (the "T") and St. Patricks Flag of Irland (the "X"). I then return to the idea that the setting of the Somerset Man-o-War in Paul Revere's Midnight Ride works into this with "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour".
if T is north of X, saying T represents England and X is Ireland, then how might we look at this?
England is actually east of Ireland. Truth would be T is west of X, and so this might mean we are to treat west as if it's north.
Hitting a home run from Fenway Park means hitting the ball north towards the red glowing triangle of the CITGO sign. I wonder if the fanned out red hair on the woman in image 11 is a fuzzy way of saying red triangle. Or is the red hair just a Viking or Celt thing?
Here's an evaluation of some of the graphic elements in this image. "A" denotes the points on the stone circle where the mysterious lines end on both sides. Those lines might be connected to form an arc that comes close to where I've approximated a triangle based on the hair curves. After that I noticed there's some connecting points that "play nice". Notice how the center of the bubble in front of the falcon meets a vertical line which is also a tangent from the point of that pink arc. Same goes for centering the larger orb to the bottom right with that side of the pink arc. The bottom edge of the triangle looks like it could be a tangent of the pink arc as well. One thing I like is the falcon's bubble and the lower right side orb share the same sizes of the orbs drawn in the sky background inside the circular window.
rookhunter
Here's a simple question:
Is there a difference in stairs and steps?
maltedfalcon
rookhunter wrote::
Here's a simple question:
Is there a difference in stairs and steps?
Steps can be stairs or 1/2 paces, stairs are a series of level places going up or down an inclined plane.
rookhunter
maltedfalcon wrote::
Steps can be stairs or 1/2 paces, stairs are a series of level places going up or down an inclined plane.
Looking at the Boston site then, I think the stairs he refers to are not in the circles but the stairs of the small house. There doesn't seem to be any other alternative.
jsp
forest_blight wrote::
Question for the locals: Looking down on the C's from above, is it possible that the pattern of seams and cracks matches the edge of the window in P11?
Also, sorry, I forgot to answer this. And it's a fairly important question.
The answer is no. The patterning on the window is unique, and it was one of the first things I checked for. There's nothing that resembles it in that area. Also, the half-circles that surround the globe in the image: The Cs in this location look very different.
I don't know. There are parts of the verse that are evocative of Boston, for sure, but I think that's working on assumptions until we figure out if the image matches, and if so, what it's trying to tell us. If the working solutions (and some other ones in progress) are any indication, there have to be recognizable landmarks somewhere in the painting, landmarks that point you in the direction of the city (and apparently the general area of the city where you use the verse to get specific). But if nothing else, there are definitive representation of visible landmarks. Not just parts of the painting which sort of look like a landmark if you squint, but a representation (or outline) of the landmark, created from a Polaroid. So far, there's nothing like that in Image 11. There's a triangle inside a square, sure, and the Citgo sign is also a triangle inside a square, but again it's not a clear representation and also the other landmarks have been of a more antique nature - statues, fountains, et cetera. A huge neon sign advertising a gas company seems out of place, even if it's emblematic of Boston. I don't say this to rule it out, just that it's kind of tenuous.
The other thing is that while literary references happen in the verses, none of them have seemed to be integral to solving the puzzle (though they do seem to be helpful). I'm thinking in particular of the Thucidydes and Xenophon connection: While the Horace Walpole letter may have been BP sneaking esoteric knowledge into a verse, it would be sort of crazy if knowledge of that letter were integral, since if you hadn't happened to read it, you'd drive yourself crazy wondering what it means to have T north of X. If we think about this in 1983 terms, there was no way you could sit down at a terminal and ask a computer for any references to both Thucidydes and Xenophon. Google did not exist yet. If that knowledge were crucial, the puzzle would be unsolvable to anyone who didn't happen to read Horace Walpole's letters (in other words, basically anyone).
So while I'm not denying that the connection may be intentional, I don't know that it's crucial, either. I think it's as likely as anything else that verse 3 is the verse for image 11, and wouldn't die of shock if the casque referenced were in Boston, but without something a bit stronger in terms of visuals, we're just fumbling in the dark in terms of the verse.
WhiteRabbit
jsp wrote::
If we think about this in 1983 terms, there was no way you could sit down at a terminal and ask a computer for any references to both Thucidydes and Xenophon. Google did not exist yet. If that knowledge were crucial, the puzzle would be unsolvable to anyone who didn't happen to read Horace Walpole's letters (in other words, basically anyone). So while I'm not denying that the connection may be intentional, I don't know that it's crucial, either.
It's like: "Here is a sovereign people who build palaces to shelter their heads for a night" and "What we take to be our strongest tower of delight". There's no doubt about BP smuggling in arcane knowledge, but the question remains, why. While I'm inclined to agree with the "that seems an unlikely clue because it's impossibly obscure" mentality, the fact remains that they're still there for some reason or other.
(On the subject of these odd references, though, it does seem to me that if you accept Sarmiento for NO you have to accept Edwin for Charleston by the same token. I don't go with either personally.)
Hirudiniforme
jsp wrote::
...If the working solutions (and some other ones in progress) are any indication, there have to be recognizable landmarks somewhere in the painting, landmarks that point you in the direction of the city (and apparently the general area of the city where you use the verse to get specific). But if nothing else, there are definitive representation of visible landmarks. Not just parts of the painting which sort of look like a landmark if you squint, but a representation (or outline) of the landmark, created from a Polaroid.
I think I posted one of these "Polaroid" type clues in the image of the white box with the Bowker overpass in the background; though, I am still not entirely sold on the Charlesgate and 2Cs solution, this was a solid match, I think.
erexere
I think its reasonable to say he had a reason to go long with literary references. At the very least we might distill them to a rooftop for NO, a place maybe where leaves pile up in Houston, and a place named after the Warship mentioned in the Landlords Tale in Boston.
jsp
erexere wrote::
I think its reasonable to say he had a reason to go long with literary references. At the very least we might distill them to a rooftop for NO, a place maybe where leaves pile up in Houston, and a place named after the Warship mentioned in the Landlords Tale in Boston.
Well, again, I'm not ruling anything out, but in the case of the Landlord's Tale, I'm taking the following into consideration:
- There's nothing in the image that suggests the area. Sticking to the idea of finding exact matches for something, there just isn't anything there. There are some things (the globes, the Cs, etc) which sort of resemble things found in the image, but no precise match like we've seen with the other solutions.
- Excluding that (namely, the fact that I don't think there's much to lead us to that area), the Somerset is a hotel that shares a name with the Somersett, which is a warship in the poem. But the poem also mentions the Old North Church*, and it also mentions Charlestown**, and it also mentions Paul Revere (lots of landmarks involving him all over the city), and it's also by Longfellow and there is a Longfellow Bridge in Boston.
I honestly think that we've been led by confirmation bias to the area next to the Somerset. There are a few things which sort of fit, or which can be bent to fit (a dangerous trap when puzzle-solving), but it also leaves a lot of things out - there are aspects of the verse which don't correspond to anything in the area, and nothing in the image at all.
*
Which is also in the North End. For a while, I was sort of stuck on the idea of "In the area of his direction," since it makes no sense, but if we interpret that not as going north, but being in the north area, it fits a little better. Unfortunately, there isn't much else that points us there.
**
Which is where Old Ironsides (see above re: metal walls) is.
erexere
Good thinking there jsp. Its establishing bew ground to look into the poem for references and you are right to show consideration for those other mentions. I don't think were falling into a trap at the Somerset location, because there aren't exact things to call upon. Itlooks like this is a case partiality. The remaining images are drifting towards a more blended anatomy. The backbone of these puzzles is ever mysterious. My biggest push for an all encompassing or underlying trend is to look at ancient greek parallels. That sort of thing keeps coming up for me...but maybe that is a trap.
I really like the similarity of the top shape of the woman's head as a fit for that nice curve in the facade if the building a block north of Leif Ericcson.
bigmattyh
Preiss got a classic liberal arts education, at an elite institution, back when that meant a lot of reading and study of literature. You had to read Melville, and maybe you might have come across Sarmiento as well. These were hints meant to reward the well-read.
jsp
So here's something that's occurred to me over the last few days.
If memory serves, BP has confirmed that there's a casque in Canada and one in St. Louis.
Given that images 11 and 8 are the only ones we don't have a definitive location for, and that all the other images point definitively to known locations (none of which are in Canada or St. Louis), wouldn't that mean that images 11 and 8 could only refer to one of those two places?
If so, wouldn't that rule out Boston as a casque location?
WhiteRabbit
IMHO Image 9 is the only candidate for either of those locations, and the dogleg rules strongly in favour of Montreal, leaving the "casque in St Louis" as a cryptic hint for New Orleans; eg Louis Armstrong Park.
I'm not entirely happy with that, because if we can't take the statement literally there's no reason to take Canada literally either. But there's better evidence for Boston than there is for either Montreal or St Louis. I think most Q4Ters would take Boston as incontrovertible.
rookhunter
jsp wrote::
So here's something that's occurred to me over the last few days.
If memory serves, BP has confirmed that there's a casque in Canada and one in St. Louis.
Given that images 11 and 8 are the only ones we don't have a definitive location for, and that all the other images point definitively to known locations (none of which are in Canada or St. Louis), wouldn't that mean that images 11 and 8 could only refer to one of those two places?
If so, wouldn't that rule out Boston as a casque location?
This was my thinking too for a long time but the evidence for Boston is compelling. I havn't seen any evidence to support a St. Louis casque. So either Preiss was mistaken or we are. To me, there are just too many coincidences to rule out Boston.
Hirudiniforme
rookhunter wrote::
This was my thinking too for a long time but the evidence for Boston is compelling. I havn't seen any evidence to support a St. Louis casque. So either Preiss was mistaken or we are. To me, there are just too many coincidences to rule out Boston.
I've actually spent some time looking in St. Louis (Square) in Montreal... it's a very interesting spot. You can also play with the "numbers" in the flower (I9) and come pretty close to a skyline of the European row of houses surrounding the Square.
I tend to agree with WR that the casque confirmed "in St. Louis" is more likely a play on words, like BP did with his verses. Additionally, it could be right outside St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans.
WhiteRabbit
(The actual words were apparently: "I think you deserve to know that you are correct about st. Louid, but not correct about the location".)
erexere
There's a mesh of at least three different perspectives, assume standing on the casque spot,
1) facing south, see a metal box (box has been removed sometime recently) and a lamp post (marked by orange rectangle and perspective fitting with circle), the circle of stone just beyond.
2) facing north, back to the metal box and the stairs of the circle and it's stairs, see the facade of a building a block to the north, it looks like the hair line of the woman.
3) facing the green light tower, now the corner edges of the box might be compared to the two flat translucent angled squares at the bottom of the illustration.
I expect the CITGO sign is visable from this spot, espeically when standing on the metal box. With no metal box, a good test would be to use a small portable stepladder and see if this is true.
erexere
The first word in the first line IF is the key to this casque. I can't shake the feeling that I've struck the right idea. Paul Revere in his daring moment of crossing the Charles river involved three important interacting elements: Revere, the Somerset, and the Moon.
The book by John Boyle O'Reilly, titled Moondyne is about escaping from a penal colony/prison. The word IF is the name of the prison in the Count of Monte Cristo. A cave system is named after John, it's called Moondyne Caves which are known topographically as a karst, which is a characterized as a sinkhole. The two circular areas with two or three steps down in that section of interest in Charlesgate are basically the same thing, sinkholes.
The general reason we have the first lines of verse 3 is to connect to the Thucydides and Xenophon written in the stone of Boston Public Library, notably similar to Where M and B are set in stone in Chicago. The setting of a library in Boston is very important, it illuminates our focus on making a book association, which is about Longfellow, Dumas, and O'Reilly. We take our five steps or junctions west to find the John Boyle O'Reilly statue. We aren't far from the Somerset and the section of Charlesgate.
I have no doubt in my mind that once found, the casque location will have something characteristic of a prison involved. Behind bars? Inside a fenced in area?
Feel at home,
The transition from outside your home to inside your home is generally the front door. I believe a simple door lines up with the spot. Is it the small door to the metal walled box I see it opens towards the globe light inside the fenced area? Is it the door to the fenced area itself? Is it the gate to the Somerset across the street?
All the letters / Are here to see,
This really invites the CITGO sign interpretation. You can only see the CITGO sign from that small area next to the metal box. I believe we dig between the it's door and the light. It's a very tight constrained area.
fox
erexere wrote::
All the letters / Are here to see,
This really invites the CITGO sign interpretation. You can only see the CITGO sign from that small area next to the metal box. I believe we dig between the it's door and the light. It's a very tight constrained area.
I have never really liked this theory on "All the letters". With all of the historical things in the area, do you really believe BP would use a modern gas station sign? I don't....sorry.
erexere
My thoughts on the CITGO and the line "all the letters" concerns at least two important considerations. It's an iconic visual presence in the landscape. In the spot that is currently under examination, there are places ranging from where you can't see the sign at all, to places where you can see only some of the letters, and then places where you can see all the letters. The CITGO sign is a bright red triangle solid AND it's made of the most prominient letters in all of the landscape.
The fact that it's a gas station logo isn't what's meaningful in the Preissian perspective. I agree that Preiss would be most inclined to select only historically significant items and most specifically things modeled after a Greek standard of origin. In this case it's a playful take on Homer and don't think I'm talking about Homer Simpson -I know what you're thinking, fox! I believe Preiss takes the idea of Homer and jams it into a baseball motif, which is what the CITGO sign represents to the Bostonian fans of Fenway Park, the home run sign, "See It Go!".
The historic "stuff" you think needs to be Preiss' focus is here in this spot right before the Somerset Hotel, in Charlesgate, in the Emerald Necklace, etc.
Deuce
Just some questions and observations... If the verse is to give us an exact location, shouldn't the "five steps" take us directly to the "green tower of lights"? Since its the next line of the verse after the steps, we should be right there. Thats if the lamppost is indeed the correct reference. I've been trying to come up with a good route to get there but have nothing yet. There are no more directional steps after this part. I thought if you turn your head so that T is directly north of X on the library then it's a 2x2 route to get to either name with the "steps" going NW to SE and NE to SW just like the city blocks. Maybe 2 blocks one way then 2 blocks another five times. Or simply the area of 2x2 is 4 so just 4 blocks? But none of those get us to the lights. Also if we're using the idea of T and X being in different states, what makes us start at the library?
Is "in the middle section" referring to where the lights are or is it telling us to look in the middle of the image?
I think that with your back to the steps facing the water (once at the correct location), you will not be able to see whatever letters there are until you sit down (feel at home).
"In truth, be free" makes me think of " the truth shall set you free" which is John 8:32. Maybe a consideration. Maybe we will see 832 or something at the site.
erexere
Four21 came up with a couple good ideas about the five steps being road junctions. I liked his approach to the John Boyle O'Reilly the most, but I disagree about the Mothers Rest area.
Here's an interesting breakdown from a person standing inside the fenced area.
WhiteRabbit
Deuce wrote::
If the verse is to give us an exact location, shouldn't the "five steps" take us directly to the "green tower of lights"? Since its the next line of the verse after the steps, we should be right there.
The verses don't work in a simple linear way; they often jump about.
erexere
I think i have a new discovery for the five steps. The word stadia or stadion/stadium can be a reference to a unit of distance equal to 600 feet. One measure for a city block or bealach as its called in Irish Gaelic is 660 feet. The distance between BPL and the John Boyle O'Reilly statue is roughly five blocks in distance.
erexere
I think I've figured out the idea behind "face the water / your back to to the stairs". I think we've allowed ourselves the inclination to think our heads must always face the opposite direction of our backs.
Suppose you're a right handed baseball player at bat. Standing north of the circular depression at Charlegate with a few steps of stairs and just between the globe light and the small rectangular cement pad where once stood a metal walled box, face north so you're back is to the stairs but then turn you're head west towards the CITGO sign like a baseball player watching for the incoming pitch. You're now facing the water as well.
maltedfalcon
why is this better than stand at the the bottom of the stairs at mother's rest facing the water - and across the water are all the letters there to see?
maltedfalcon
oh good I was worried I was missing something.
WhiteRabbit
Just noticed some discussion on Boston here...
hxxp://ask.metafilter.com/240954/Wont-y ... old-puzzle
(...though I can't be bothered to read it and doubt it contains anything new or useful...)
forest_blight
Interesting post. Did one of us post it? I drew those annotated images years ago, but I'm not the person who posted this.
I read through the post and all the comments (as of 6/27/13). Here are things I found interesting:
1. Globe could be a reference to the Mapparium.
2. Negative space under the hawk's talon could be a pig or cow. Could refer to Porcellian Club or the McKean Gate (1324 Mass. Ave., Harvard). I don't remember seeing this pig silhouette mentioned anywhere.
Xieish
The Porcelain Gate contains a very different looking pig's head, though the head in the claw is hard to un-see once you've zeroed in on it. It could be a really vague reference or just a coincidence.
I read that and have corresponded with the OP, who is on this board. Lives in Boston too. Not to insult him but he's the reason I've been hesitant to post my theory for Verse 3 (check that thread), because I actually believe he might try to dig it up before me
Hirudiniforme
I've always seen the pigs head, never the cows, but also a mallard head when viewed sideways. I've wondered about this referring to Bacon, who created the wall in Longfellow Park with The Village Blacksmith and Evangeline on it.
On a side note, delta T over delta X = velocity in a given direction.
Xieish
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... dge_MA.jpg
If this is a reference to the Porcelain Club or the Gate, it's tenuous. F that stupid bird, I hate him.
Hirudiniforme
Could it just be a red-tail hawk, signifying the red coats? I've leaned toward it being nothing at all, honestly. Maybe it helps outline another pic in the image, but think of how may parts of the Chicago and Cleveland images had nothing to do with the solve.
erexere
I continue to hold onto the idea that the bird is only there to suggest that if we were to perch on something, we'd see what we need to see to convince us we're in the right spot.
Falcon's (Perigrine?) are known for having excellent vision.
I don't want to take it any further than that. I'm really tired of overthinking things.
Hirudiniforme
I am sorry if this is a big waste of space, I just wanted to share...
From 5 steps down, you will see all these things: triangle beside the bench from a slightly-overhead view, the bust from a side view, Evangeline and Blacksmith wall, and the lamppost with a T in it.
Hirudiniforme
Also, the 0 in the 70 looks very much like an outline of Cambridge Commons, which is down the road from Central Square (ther's a lot of squares in the center, per se, in the image).
erexere
Four21, based on the visuals that's a very cool area to consider. My brain isn't cooperating, but my eyes like what they see.
Xieish
I've been to Longfellow park. Nice park, it was my first theory when I first found out about this hunt. I don't personally think it's there - I spent a few hours there with a friend and didn't really see any good or exact images.
The park itself is basically the same shape as the portal/drapes behind the woman, which is what led me to it. Certain parts of the verse fit really well, others not at all (what else is new?).
Somewhat away but directly behind the park is Longfellow's home, which is staffed permanently (maybe not 24/7) by park rangers these days.
If you check the verse 3 thread you'll see my detailed case for Cambridge Common, which I like significantly more than Longfellow at this point (the visual matches at Longfellow are too weak IMO), but I wouldn't begrudge anyone who wanted to investigate it further. It's nearer to the stadium, Longfellow wrote the poem, there are stairs, etc. I think it's just missing something when you get there that made me want to dig anywhere specific.
If I had to wager a guess, somewhere in front of the monument between the two benches, or in the patch of grass in front of that area.
Hirudiniforme
Xieish wrote::
... I spent a few hours there with a friend and didn't really see any good or exact images.
I saw you mentioned the "4"; but other than that, what good or exact images has you found at the Commons?
wk
Xieish wrote::
If I had to wager a guess, somewhere in front of the monument between the two benches, or in the patch of grass in front of that area.
No, my guess is behind the bush in line with 5 steps down.
Looking at the image, there is a bubble and a line behind the bird.
Xieish
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I saw you mentioned the "4"; but other than that, what good or exact images has you found at the Commons?
The turrets, which you either see and agree are a match or don't see.
More than this site, I personally feel. Again, I checked and vetted this site long before ever having a theory at CC - this wasn't a case of wanting one to be true and not the other. I and a friend went here and canvassed the entire area. The matches don't really stand out, but overall the park has a good feel to it.
I'll try to get some pictures of the area by the monument next week if you'd like. I don't see any real resemblance in your images, not sure what the fairy has to do with the Longfellow bust.
Also, the verse falls apart really quickly in this location. Facing the water here specifically makes it so you cannot see ANY writing or letters. The "feel at home" line referring to Longfellow's house is a bit of a stretch, it's pretty far away from the suggested dig site. There are also no green towers - I initially thought you could perhaps see Eliot House from here, but you can't see anything at all.
Hirudiniforme
Xieish wrote::
The turrets, which you either see and agree are a match or don't see.
More than this site, I personally feel. Again, I checked and vetted this site long before ever having a theory at CC - this wasn't a case of wanting one to be true and not the other. I and a friend went here and canvassed the entire area. The matches don't really stand out, but overall the park has a good feel to it.
I'll try to get some pictures of the area by the monument next week if you'd like. I don't see any real resemblance in your images, not sure what the fairy has to do with the Longfellow bust.
Also, the verse falls apart really quickly in this location. Facing the water here specifically makes it so you cannot see ANY writing or letters. The "feel at home" line referring to Longfellow's house is a bit of a stretch, it's pretty far away from the suggested dig site. There are also no green towers - I initially thought you could perhaps see Eliot House from here, but you can't see anything at all.
So other than the turrets, if I believe they match, no other visual matches, right? Which one of the solved images had the building outline next to the casque site? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to follow 'the trend.' Perhaps that's why nobody has found another casque, though.
I don't know why you can't accept the Thucydides and Xenophon on the Library and continue to dig for other meanings. As seen in the solved verses, many lines point to locations in the general vicinity of the casque site and yield no other help in determining the actual location of the casque.
Have you not considered the Green Building as the "green tower of lights?" If not, take a look. If you believe this could be the "green tower," consider that both the Thucydides and Xenophon, and the green tower clue are just general vicinity clues not providing any direction.
The fairy and the lady on Bacon's wall share a very similar dress, they both have 90 degree elbows and share facial characteristics and gaze directions, and they both are holding a square. I think the wall allows for a good interpretation of the "with metal walls face the water" lines -- The Village Blacksmith is written on the wall, and all of Longfellow's characters face the water (i.e., you can look at the water with them).
Hirudiniforme
wk wrote::
No, my guess is behind the bush in line with 5 steps down.
This was my thought.
Xieish
The 4 and the turrets, so far. It's a large area, and I'm one person. Harvard Square and the surrounding area has changed so much during that time, to the point where they dug up the subway station, made 2 temporary ones for a few years, and then re-opened Harvard in a completely different configuration with an extension down to Alewife.
I'm just not that impressed by names on the side of a library that aren't north of each other and appear on other libraries. I'm not completely discounting it - but there are a few things that turn me off to the Copley area in general.
1) It's never been easy to dig in Copley. It's very public, there are no really good park lands, privacy, etc.
2) All of Copley has basically been dug up and redone two separate times since 1981. If it was there it's very, very likely destroyed or unfindable.
I'd have no problem scouting any specific area in Copley, but many people have done so, and nobody has come up with
anything
better than the names carved on the side.
I even freely admit in my own theory that T&X are a glaring, gaping hole, and am looking for assistance there. It's also not always necessary to solve the entire verse (M&B for example) as you pointed out - not all lead directly to the cask.
I have considered the Green Building, didn't really find anything compelling otherwise. It's difficult because, in general, green "towers" of lights are not rare in Boston - as seen over by Charlesgate. Those are far from unique, and trying to assign any one thing to it by itself is going to be tough too.
If by Bacon's wall you mean the woman two to the right of the bust on the Longfellow monument (designed by Daniel Chester French) I just don't see it in her dress. I'm sorry - I think even if you aren't a believer in the turrets you can see that they're a much better match than this. 90 degree schmeinty degree, her arm position is completely completely different. This would be the single "worst" image match of all the known ones, from Chicago and Cleveland to the Milwaukee City Hall, outline of Roanoke, Chrysler Gargoyle, Possible "4" in Cambridge, Legeater, etc. By far.
So far the "worst" match is probably the pillars in Cleveland, and those are way closer than this would be, visually speaking.
If you mean something else, my apologies, I didn't catch it. I'm not being as defensive as you think, but I've also spent a lot of time on the ground where it seems a lot of people haven't, and that's actually how these seem to get solved. Look at how long Egbert spent spinning his wheels in PA until someone came along and was like "Uh I live here and it's here."
bigmattyh
I think I've floated this idea before, but maybe it bears repeating:
Maybe the Thucydides and Xenophon reference is just a reference for Boston, period. "If T is north of X" -- well, that's it. Boston is north of New York (the Walpole quote). So look in Boston.
"Take five steps in the area of his direction" could be one of those out-of-order lines that would make more sense once the location is pinned down.
erexere
bigmattyh wrote::
I think I've floated this idea before, but maybe it bears repeating:
Maybe the Thucydides and Xenophon reference is just a reference for Boston, period. "If T is north of X" -- well, that's it. Boston is north of New York (the Walpole quote). So look in Boston.
"Take five steps in the area of his direction" could be one of those out-of-order lines that would make more sense once the location is pinned down.
Bigmatty, you should share you're ideas more. I'm not saying I like what you have to say, just that you seem to have an interest and an opinion and hardly ever try to go anywhere with it.
These forums need more participation.
WhiteRabbit
How many places are there where several people agree that there's a chance of finding a casque, and that haven't been comprehensively redeveloped?
I hope someone checks it out before we lose this site as well. I reckon it's our best bet.
erexere
Funny you should mention this site. I've learned recently that it's really not a big deal to take a small garden trowel and bury something 4-6 inches deep.
It's possible someone might be interested in starting a new treasure hunt, prize in the form of 100 casascius coins. I've been agonizing over the best way to offer a financial incentive to motivate the recovery of some of these casques.
If there were a prize of some kind buried only 4-6 inches at just one of the proposed sites for a casque, preferably right on the very spot, would someone just stop there or chance going the whole 2-3 feet?
rookhunter
WhiteRabbit wrote::
How many places are there where several people agree that there's a chance of finding a casque, and that haven't been comprehensively redeveloped?
I hope someone checks it out before we lose this site as well. I reckon it's our best bet.
I support this. We need someone that believes in this site as well and is willing to dig.
Eric, if you are serious I will go in with you on this. Im willing to shell out some cash to see if this is the site.
erexere
Its only a foolish dream. I know there's some fast diggers among the metal detecting enthusiasts.
WhiteRabbit
People I've spoken to often come out with, "if we can definitely find the spot, then I'll dig". But at this stage I think the best we can hope for is a reasonable possibility in a location that's undisturbed and not off-limits.
At the 2C, I think my favourite location is 421's nook. There isn't anything conclusive in the image or verse, but it seems to be a fairly prominent and repeated shape, and on Google maps at least, it looks like a promising spot.
A green tower of lights
In the middle section
We've never found "a green tower of lights in the middle section"...it's not even clear what that means. The middle section of what? But we have a green tower of lights here, and perhaps the next line is a separate, disjointed clue. Maybe the nook is "the middle section".
* * * * *
Incidentally I just came across another "in truth be free", in a poem called "The Spirit Voice" by Charles Reason.
hxxp://www.poemhunter.com/best-poems/ch ... ranchised/
Charlesgate was named by Charles I, after himself.
Whitey9457
Hi I'm new to the board but i'm in boston and on the hunt... Plan on doing a lot of reading on this ASAP before the ground freezes (if it hasn't already)
WhiteRabbit
Hi Whitey -
Welcome to The Secret. I still reckon the best chance of finding any casque (albeit a slim one) is somewhere in the area above. It's had better general consensus from veterans on this puzzle than anywhere.
Hope you can check it out! (Very exasperating that sceptics have visited the site but never dug. You gotta have faith.)
Good luck,
WR
erexere
What up, Whitey. Welcome. Theres lots of room for your ideas, don't hesitate to discuss anything. I'm in agreement with Whiterabbit and others on that small section in Charlesgate. Visually it is a challenge much greater than Cleveland or Chicago's solves. The verse is also very difficult to grokmantle. Good luck.
Whitey9457
I am still so overwhelmed with information so far... I can't even really tell where that section of charlesgate is. Are there any other Bostonians here? Some of the things people have read into the clues have gone wayyyyy over my head (or I think people might be seeing clues that don't exist...) but I also need to study up on the 2 quests that have been solved so i can understand the author's style. I live near charlesgate i think (pretty new here)... The section photographed above does seem to line up pretty perfectly with the painting so I might go look for that section today
erexere
I'll PM you my mobil number should you want to discuss anything...or if you want to just lay into me for writing so much crap here that you're eyeballs are hemorrhaging.
Whitey9457
awesome i actually just moved here from oregon
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
I can't even really tell where that section of charlesgate is
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There's also 02115 backwards...
It's the zip code for an area of Boston which includes the 2C site.
Here's a quote I just dragged up which helps pinpoint the "2C".
The amount of information on this forum is a bit overwhelming. Most of it is garbage, but there's some good stuff as well, so don't let that put you off. I'd try and avoid the temptation to start from scratch with these puzzles...there are good reasons to believe that many of the Q4T solutions got close, but they're hard to finish because of the difficulty of involving local people, changes to locations which have probably destroyed clues if not casques, and the difficulty and restrictions on digging.
But if I could teleport anywhere in the US to try and find one of these, it would be the 2C. I'd start by excavating the "nook" between the two circles, and a spot "face the water, your back to the stairs" by the fence.
Others have different ideas. But if you knew this place, you'd know how rare it was to get half a dozen people agreeing on the credentials of an area this small.
Even a bunch of new photos showing areas inaccessible on Google, eg the back of the pump house, would be good...though unfortunately this forum has attracted far more photographers than diggers over the years...
Whitey9457
So I just did my first "quest" today. I wasn't really looking for anything in particular except the area that most people seem focused on in boston (charlesgate). I found the area in most photos and I gotta say that I was mostly underwhelmed by the evidence... Not only that, but I am fairly certain that I could tell that a few areas had already been dug up... especially right in the main area mentioned previously.
I was going off the photo and the poem that most people seem to assume are boston... although I'm really not sure how everyone came to that conclusion... I still need to read this thread lol
Whitey9457
The nook area that you mentioned had a spot about 5 paces out that was slightly sunken.... grass was already grown on top of it so it was clearly dug up a while ago, but I'm guessing a couple years max... not 30 years... although I could be wrong. also, this spot was so close to the water that 3 feet down might be below the water line.
The ground is already mostly frozen here. if there is one casque that I can almost be certain would've been destroyed by freezing ground over the years, it would probably be boston (maybe NYC) is there one more north? montreal? anyways, i'm not giving up but i doubt any real digging would occur until spring.
still waiting for most of the other clues to make sense. I will say that the block of commonwealth ave that leads away from this location is lined with street lamps shaped like lanterns and at the end of the block is the Harvard Club building and set in stone above the door it says "Ver It Tas" ("truth" in latin) which i could see maybe relating to the last lines "Lit by lamplight; In truth, be free"
erexere
It may be underwhelming but don't give up hope. It's not that easy to find these.
Can you take a a few pics from certain angles at the edge of the dirt areas from where the Harvard lantern can be seen and post them please?
Whitey9457
I could try digging in the nook tomorrow. It is actually a pretty isolated area. The highway surrounds it on 2 sides (along with a waterway) but there is a big fancy building right across the street. If i were going to get in trouble it would be because someone there complains. I was considering bringing a plant with my and if anyone stopped my i could just tell them I was planting a tree or I could be really obvious with a bag of soil or something and people might just assume i work for the city or something.
... but overall it really makes no sense to me. That is symbol on the painting that (kind of) lines up with the shape of that area is only one small part of the painting. i am kind of thinking that that location is just one of the globes from the painting and there are 3 or so others in the area or something and where the girl is standing between them would be the location... but again i'm brand new to this and haven't read most of the info.
Whitey9457
oh yeah, and there is a private security which is basically another police department in boston RIGHT ON THAT CORNER but I honestly doubt that anyone would care or even see me digging there unless they were in the building above me
erexere
Wow, that's great information, and it's a good plan to have a plant or two with you with some soil. It probably something you should have a permit for, but as long as you're basically trying to improve the site for the general public I don't see a reason for anyone to spoil your fun.
Go ahead and consider all of you're onsite gut feelings. If you really agree this is a good spot for at least any reason, then the casque is there or it's not far from there.
I had the same experience at a site where there's basically two houses across the street and they are retired people who basically walk their dogs all day back and forth to the site. The local sherrif and park patrol vehicles routinely drive up to check on the site but generally assume people are just there to take pictures and look at the interpretive historic markers. I've had a few digs but come up empty handed since I've previously put clues together in the wrong combination and neglected to see some very important features until recently. (won't be saying more on that until later).
Good luck, Whitey.
Whitey9457
apparently people are saying that that building is a hotel (somerset) so maybe I wouldn't have a problem. I would bring a bag and pick up all of the trash in the area too (there is a lot) and I doubt anyone would say anything to me.
Whitey9457
even if i'm supposed to have a permit, they might tell me to stop but i doubt they'd get me in any trouble.
Whitey9457
hope you don't mind me just blurting stuff out whenever i think of it... but here is another thought...
this area (charlesgate) is a park. there is the middle section of the park (including part that is under the highway). on one side of the park there is an on-ramp and on the other side of the park is an exit (and the waterway). across the waterway is the location we're all talking about. this area could vaguely look like a park (the vine design on the woman's dress), the dress making up the on ramp and exit and the bubble representing the area we're talking about. the squares on either side of her dress could then represent buildings... this could also be why the bird is there? maybe saying like bird's eye view...
kind of think that the only reason why i'm thinking this is because of google earth though (which the author clearly didn't have) and i feel like i am looking more for a map in the photo instead of deciphering clues like most of the people on here are doing.
Whitey9457
the clue from the photograph that is driving me the most crazy is the top center block. It appears to have a few distinguishing characteristics the most annoying being to the right. The "upper" right corn of the block is a totally different block. I have been looking at stone arches, etc all day and I have not seen a single block where only a corner was removed like that... it just doesn't happen that way. Instead, both the upper right and lower right corner would simply be 2 small blocks. They wouldn't leave a little section on a block like that. I finally found a decent photograph of the picture, and I can also make out what seems to maybe be a purple heart and a feather (or maybe just a crack in the block?) and then to the left there is a single dot.
Have there been any theories on what these clues represent?
Whitey9457
Here are my photos from today (one at a time):
green tower of lights near the circles:
Whitey9457
the main event:
(hopefully i'll figure out which size works best)
Whitey9457
from across the water:
(shadowed area is the area in question i believe)
Whitey9457
Close up of the area I will likely be attacking tomorrow:
it's hard to tell because of the shadow, etc. but the area with light snow on it is slightly sunken in which leads me to believe that someone dug there, couldn't fit all of the dirt back in the hole, threw the excess dirt in the water and eventually after the dirt settled it was slightly caved in... i suppose it could also be because there was a box put in the hole which eventually collapsed...
Whitey9457
An area nearby which also has the same globe lights and circles, etc.
Whitey9457
there are a few more in my new set on flickr let me know if you have trouble seeing them
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/93936687@N ... 623054815/
cw0909
Whitey9457 wrote::
awesome i actually just moved here from oregon
welcome awesome is right, i like that your willing to take pics and dig if you find a spot
that looks good
and wow going from one end of the country to the other, does your job ever travel you
to any of the other casque cities, that would be awesome too. LOL
cw0909
Whitey9457 wrote::
Close up of the area I will likely be attacking tomorrow:
it's hard to tell because of the shadow, etc. but the area with light snow on it is slightly sunken in which leads me to believe that someone dug there, couldn't fit all of the dirt back in the hole, threw the excess dirt in the water and eventually after the dirt settled it was slightly caved in... i suppose it could also be because there was a box put in the hole which eventually collapsed...
do you think that area would be lit by lamp lite
Whitey9457
well i'm unemployed right now (one of the reasons why it's so easy for me to focus on a treasure hunt with no real treasure) lol. job interviews next week but i'm honestly not much of a traveler. although NYC isn't far...
I could go at night sometime and check about the lamp light but not tonight and if i'm digging tomorrow then i won't really know where the shadow is but it's probably not far off from the shadow in the photo... I'm kind of worried that the ground will already be too frozen which would be a real bummer.
Merlot Brougham
I always wondered about the little circle. Just a thought.
erexere
Merlot, that looks like a moon's crater. We've most often referred to this as a window or an oculus, but maybe it's an improvement to think of it as a moongate, though that's a bit small and they tend to be more of an oriental motif. Remember we had a rebus with a bell and a flower and called that "belflower road" in Cleveland? Maybe this is more like a rebus with crater+opening=moongate.
Whitey9457
ugh 15 pages of comments in and i'm still not convinced that either the picture or the poem are certainly boston lol
Whitey9457
Now 25 pages in and gotta quit for the night...
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
ugh 15 pages of comments in and i'm still not convinced that either the picture or the poem are certainly boston lol
They assuredly are, but I don't care whether you believe it or not, as long as you dig us a couple of holes.
Thanks for the photos.
Hirudiniforme
Awesome buddy! Welcome! I really like the one picture that shows the "S", the globes, and the green tower of lights from the opposite side of the river. MBs idea about the craters being the drains is pretty cool, too. I'd be really interested to know whether the following is a mortar joint or a crack:
Hirudiniforme
Also, at this point, the columns and the globes would align as in the image (including the two globes to the right of the one between the two columns):
Additionally, the columns and globe might be the ones of the steps leading into the northernmost "C" from the southernmost "C":
Whitey9457
I am mostly sure that that is mortar between two blocks. All of the blocks that line the top are the same length (at least when viewing with naked eye) and judging from the other mortar lines, that is where the mortar should be. hmm for some reason i thought that the "crack" at the top of image 11 was a feather...
I'm getting ready to head out now... i can't find my shovel?! probably lost in the move i just did.... so i'm gonna have to buy a new one so i'm really hoping that the ground isn't too frozen to dig (because i live in boston and have no other use for a shovel lol). i plan to dig a bit, then on breaks from digging I will pick up some trash. i didn't have enough time to find a plant that i'm willing to sacrifice as my excuse for digging a hole... but i suppose i could just tell them that i'm coming back later with a tree to plant or something. really hoping that I don't cause any problems from digging there though.
Hirudiniforme
Good luck, man! Dig in that nook!
Whitey9457
Also, i didn't upload this photo because I was seeing "clues" everywhere yesterday like i was living a national treasure movie... but I'm now realizing that this is the front door for the hotel somerset.... it is no longer a hotel (converted to luxury apartments in the 1980s... i can't find a more specific date but i think that that works pretty well)... but maybe this is the hotel where the author stayed (giving him a bird's eye view of the area in question). i thought that the pattern above the door looked something like the pattern on her dress... but really i was seeing patterns like this everywhere so i kinda disregarded it.
rookhunter
Whitey9457 wrote::
I am mostly sure that that is mortar between two blocks. All of the blocks that line the top are the same length (at least when viewing with naked eye) and judging from the other mortar lines, that is where the mortar should be. hmm for some reason i thought that the "crack" at the top of image 11 was a feather...
I'm getting ready to head out now... i can't find my shovel?! probably lost in the move i just did.... so i'm gonna have to buy a new one so i'm really hoping that the ground isn't too frozen to dig (because i live in boston and have no other use for a shovel lol). i plan to dig a bit, then on breaks from digging I will pick up some trash. i didn't have enough time to find a plant that i'm willing to sacrifice as my excuse for digging a hole... but i suppose i could just tell them that i'm coming back later with a tree to plant or something. really hoping that I don't cause any problems from digging there though.
Hi Whitney, welcome.
Where exactly are you digging?
Whitey9457
Hey I'll be digging in the nook between the two circular areas...a few feet towards the water (i'm going to estimate where the shadow of the ledge would cast if only lit by the lamps in the area... there is a sunken area which looks like it had been dug in the past but i still figure that is a good place to start...
"feel at home" could be another reference to the hotel as well as the box with the castle on it (some type of metaphor for the hotel?)
also, "all the letters are here to see" this is a photo of the gate on the side of the old hotel that faces the digging area and the backwards S looks similar to the one on her dress in the image
WhiteRabbit
If it's in the nook, I'd have thought it might be right in the nook, up against the end wall. Then again, some of these were buried pretty deep - up to 3ft. I guess it might be difficult to get much depth at that position.
Just to dig a hole anywhere at the 2C and photograph it would be a very creditable enterprise. We appreciate your efforts. ;)
Whitey9457
what do you meant the 2C? I'm on my way now... send me a PM or i won't get it... I don't think it'd be right up against the wall because it could maybe damage the wall and I don't think it'd be too far from the wall because that whole area is built on giant slabs of granite covered in some dirt (the entire back bay of boston is landfill... but this area in particular is probably very hardened because it is right be the waterway.... also, I highly doubt that it is 3 feet deep because I'm pretty sure that would put it under the waterline and so every time you try digging a hole there it would just keep filling with water. I hope people realize that, because of this fact, even if this is the location, i highly doubt that it would've survived intact unless it is put in a very strong box (and if the cleveland quest is any indication, the boxes were probably quite flimsy... i believe the author was quoted saying that he really believed that all of these would've been found within a year or two...)
cw0909
Whitney, maybe a post hole digger would be better than a shovel
and after a foot or foot and half you prob will hit behind the concrete
footer that holds the water back
Whitey9457
So, unfortunately the ground is frozen here. I probably missed the window by only a week or so but it was pretty hopeless to even try... Not to mention that I didn't have a proper shovel and the only hardware stores in the area only had snow shovels...definitely no post diggers. I can't really blame them because there is hardly any green space in Boston so not much digging going on without heavy machinery. I had to find a crappy trench shovel at an army/navy store (which ripped me off big time lol). So I basically spent my time picking up trash in the area and then went over to Copley Square to investigate the Boston Public Library and the surrounding churches... Didn't really find anything worth noting besides Xenophon on the wall of the library... not sure why i couldn't even find the other name... maybe it had to do with the fact that I was freezing. If anyone ever gets the chance to visit while on a quest, don't pass up a chance to check out the library because it is an amazing building.
I have a few pictures to post later but nothing at all groundbreaking besides you might notice it is less trashy. I also got to poke my head in the Somerset while asking the front desk if I could use their dumpsters for my trash and it was also a pretty amazing building but, again, didn't notice anything worth reporting here.
So, the quest will have to wait until Spring but that gives me all winter to try to actually understand the clues and why everyone is so sure that this is the location.
erexere
Whitey9457 wrote::
This pattern above the door reminds me of something from an article or one of the margins or other pages in the book.
Whitey9457
I also decided that tomorrow i may go investigate the Paul Revere Mall in the North end. It is a park-like area near the Old North Church where the lanterns were placed in the church window (one if by land, two if by sea). I've been there before, but didn't look to closely at anything. The ground is pretty much completely lined with bricks though so definitely no digging there... there are really only a small handful of areas in Boston where you could get away with digging and people not notice... the charlesgate area is definitely one of those locations.
Whitey9457
Random thought... "With metal walls" could refer to "Old Ironsides" aka the USS Constitution
erexere
Or it could refer to the metal box that use to be on the small cement pad just inside the fenced area to the north of the circular areas.
Whitey9457
how do you know that a metal box used to exist where there no longer is one? I noticed a cement block that used to have something on it (still had holes in it where the wires went through) but I assumed it was an old street light... also, there is a small building right there and next to it is a small metal box but I wouldn't call any of them "walls"...
Whitey9457
Since there are going to be a few months before any more digging can take place, I'm really hoping people can explain or better convince me why they are so sure that this image and this verse go together and why they are convinced it is boston...
right now i'm 33 pages into the comments here and the only clues I think people have really confirmed are:
• the 41 and 42 relating to lat/long (i knew that there was something up with that block that makes up the 4 in 41 because, as I was saying before, no archways would have a block like that that only makes up one corner of another block.... or, if there was an archway like that, it would be one of a kind). The 71 i suppose works for me too, but it is less convincing than the 42 which is just blatantly obvious.
• the reference to paul revere's ride
• Thucydides and Xenophon are both on the wall of the BPL (although I imagine that those names have appeared together at other libraries/museums, etc. too)
Pretty much every other "clue" i've read so far is a stretch... I just imagine that I could drop myself in a random city and still find the same connections which some people have stated as proof for why this is boston...
I also get that people have decided that this is the "Italian" themed puzzle and that it also has something to do with August (and the birthstone of august) but I'm not really sure how that relates to solving the puzzle... but I don't have the book yet so maybe someone can fill me in?
So far I have only been focusing on this verse and this image and I'm wondering if I should broaden my focus to the other ones too... (i looked at the solved puzzles a bit but i haven't gotten much info from them because after they're solved it seems like the clues from those two were much easier than these)
Whitey9457
And I'm not trying to challenge anyone's thoughts on this... just hoping to understand it rather than just digging where you tell me to because you told me to lol
forest_blight
Whitey, I'm very glad you're on-site and willing to dig. I've found these treasure hunts to be a great motivation to get out and look at places I otherwise would have ignored, and I've learned tons about history, architecture, art, and literature in the process. I encourage you to keep reading the threads (not just this one)! Years and years of fun and work have been poured into this forum.
Whitey9457
I did mean to say something specifically about that! Today was awesome for me! Even though the ground was frozen, I picked up 2 bags of trash in that area (which made me feel pretty good and basically said "why can't people do something like this more often?" garbage in boston is a real problem...)
then I went to copley and checked out the public library (which blew me away!) and checked out the two main churches there. The Old South Church was awesome and free to explore... Trinity Church wanted to charge me $7 to just look around, which i thought was ridiculous. I had been to many of these churches when i was a kid on a field trip (i grew up in NH) but had never been to the BPL and had a new appreciation for it all now.
Whitey9457
New Photos:
(nothing new, but to prove that I gave it a shot lol)
Whitey9457
(RE: The above photo) The snow that hasn't melted in that spot from last time should've been enough evidence for me that the ground was frozen but I still tried lol and I pour some water trying to that it but I didn't have much.
Here is another spot that looked like it had been dug (with another metal box in the background)
Whitey9457
Both sets of stairs in view:
Whitey9457
I realized that the overpass had a sidewalk I could walk up for aerial photos:
Whitey9457
whoops i'll try that again:
Whitey9457
The more I look at it, the more I don't think that this represents this location. Really hoping someone can talk sense into me because I have no idea where to begin otherwise...
I have no clue why the orange line is there... why does one circle have a globe in it while the other one doesn't? etc
Whitey9457
also, why is one of the rings is checkered and the other isn't?
i'm still happy to dig here and planning on it when the time comes but hoping someone might have explanations...
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
also, why is one of the rings is checkered and the other isn't?
i'm still happy to dig here and planning on it when the time comes but hoping someone might have explanations...
There's always the Cambridge Common Theory.
tm
edit: Good work out there today, by the way.
Whitey9457
Also when I google the 41st and 42nd north parallel, Boston doesn't fall between them...
erexere
that metal box that use to be on the small pad to the north was viewable from an old pic from google street view. The metal box by the small building is new; there use to be an old electric panel on it's north side.
wk
Hi whitey and well done.
I was working on proving to you that it was Boston and Massachusetts when you started posting and it has been very interesting. Here is a rough outline of the state but it is mirrored. Notice the yellow lines on the right match the bordering states of New Hampshire and Vermont. I think the sloping table at the bottom is part of the outline too. Read my post about squiggles, where the artist say is given a simple outline and has to make a picture using it and it might make more sense.
wk
Whitey9457 wrote::
and another:
There is the crack at the bottom!
I prefer that side where the graffiti is anyway as it shows on some views that it sheltered by bushes.
Whitey9457
wk wrote::
Hi whitey and well done.
I was working on proving to you that it was Boston and Massachusetts when you started posting and it has been very interesting. Here is a rough outline of the state but it is mirrored. Notice the yellow lines on the right match the bordering states of New Hampshire and Vermont. I think the sloping table at the bottom is part of the outline too. Read my post about squiggles, where the artist say is given a simple outline and has to make a picture using it and it might make more sense.
I'm still new to this but i'm still not convinced by that outline... I could probably find many states somewhere in that photo if i wanted it bad enough... and your outline doesn't seem to follow any rules... using a few of the lines in there especially if things can be mirrored, etc. most obviously, the blue area in her arm looks like virginia...any block could look like colorado or wyoming (btw - the 41st north parallel is the southern border of both of those states)
am i alone in this? there just hasn't been a single thing that has made me have an "aha! of course!" moment...
i also really doubt that he would draw a crack in a block to represent a crack in a block... he must've known that cracks are repaired...or continue to crack more, etc. i honestly thought that that "crack" was a feather...maybe it represents a river on a map...
really not trying to shoot anyone's ideas down especially because i'm new to this but I also want to solve a puzzle this whole boston thing just seems like a snowball that went out of control when there really isn't any hard evidence... the paul revere reference and the names on the library are the only firm boston references that I see but honestly i don't even know why boston is being considered since it isn't in between the 41st and 42nd parallels... and those are the only other really firm clues that i see...
just to throw out a random example - Providence is between those parallels and any architectural themes found in boston (stone arches, etc) would probably also be found in Providence... I also bet that there is some relation to paul revere in providence...(first result on google is a church that has the largest bell ever made by paul revere at an old church in providence) i also remember people mentioning that there was a theme for exiled people when it came to Xeno and Thucy. and who founded Providence? Roger Williams - a religious exile...
Whitey9457
oh actually now that i think of it, it isn't on the north side of the building it's on the south side
Whitey9457
erexere wrote::
that metal box that use to be on the small pad to the north was viewable from an old pic from google street view. The metal box by the small building is new; there use to be an old electric panel on it's north side.
the electrical panel on the north side of the building is still there... it is one of the rustiest pieces of machinery that i've ever seen i can't believe that it actually has electricity running through it lol
Whitey9457
rihel wrote::
My point about St. Louis is that in 30 seconds, I can find things to make me believe (not really, of course) that the image represents St. Louis. There is a Black Falcon Circle in St. Louis, there is a building called the Globe Building, there is a guy named Xenophon buried in some graveyard in St. Louis, and I guess there might be a Thucycides there, as well, or maybe in some other part of St. Louis, if I searched hard enough. Maybe a reference to his book, or maybe a reference to a Greek historian, etc. That was what I found in 30 seconds. People on this forum have been spending years looking over images and clues. And there is a bit of groupthink that goes along with that. Once an idea reaches a certain amount of momentum, everywhere you look, you start to see confirmers of pet ideas, and everyone joins in, adding additional confirmation upon confirmation. The result is that a n00b like me walks in for the first time, and I have to stratch my head at some of the things that are called solid clues. Imagine if I started with the idea that St. Louis was the place for image 11. I might start to go, hey, here is a pattern of stuff that links this picture and that verse to St. Louis. If I head in that direction long enough, with enough people jumping on board, I will get more and more confirmers. And it will be a lot harder for me to break out of that line of thinking once I and others started down that path.
This is especially true when wishful thinking is added. I would LOVE for the casque to be in Boston, so I can directly search for it on weekends. So groupthink + confirmation bias + wishful thinking is a dangerous brew for getting at the real answer. So if I question a lot of stuff, sorry, but I have to keep all of those dangers in mind when thinking about this problem.
just came across this posting from 2008... and it basically says my exact thoughts...
cw0909
hi whitey, good effort today, hurry up spring LOL
maybe the wiki can answer some of your Qs, like the reversed idea of location iconic imgs
EX: clev
see the terminal tower in img, it needs to be rotated 180 to see it
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/22148509/4_solution
as it looks
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M_yEjNWPTu0/T ... s+1+11.jpg
Whitey9457
cw0909 wrote::
hi whitey, good effort today, hurry up spring LOL
maybe the wiki can answer some of your Qs, like the reversed idea of location iconic imgs
EX: clev
see the terminal tower in img, it needs to be rotated 180 to see it
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/22148509/4_solution
as it looks
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M_yEjNWPTu0/T ... s+1+11.jpg
that picture does help me get an idea of more of what we're looking for... but i would also be cautious not to force something like that. if you notice the tower (and the space between the trees) is completely symmetrical and because of that, it stands out (not saying i would've noticed it but who knows...) imagine if you were now looking for something in the branches on the other side of the image... if you wanted it bad enough, i'm sure you could find something...
cw0909
whitey i got the book back in the 80s and i grew up in clev, and did not connect
that img to clev, i didnt see the TT, the only img in book i thought hey that might
be, was img 6 to FL, and i happened to move there, but lost my book at aunts house
and just found again a few years back
cw0909
fyi whitey, since you live in B now, help out and look for dig spots, you have a head start
on the clean up
hxxp://fenwaycivic.org/2013/04/06/volun ... r-cleanup/
hxxp://fenwaycivic.org/get-involved/fen ... iti-squad/
Whitey9457
also the fact that people have been on the hunt in boston for years for this stuff with no luck or any really solid indications makes me think that maybe it's the wrong place.... during the 80's and 90's i could see it being easy to just not find any clues because it was harder but in today's world with the internet you think someone would've stumbled onto something by now...
just picking a name out of a hat basically, i might look into providence more simply because it is between the 41st and 42nd parallel and it is close to boston/ny so the quote about a xenophon and thuc. might make sense somewhere there... providence also has a rich italian culture (like boston)... similar architecture... and i really haven't heard anything firm to make me think it is not providence... (maybe it's best to start ruling out some other places instead of only focusing on boston). no one has really explained why boston wasn't ruled out by the 41/42 clue... and any other numbers (71) are much more of a reach than the blatantly obvious 42 and somewhat obvious 41. it's really funny that 41 and 42 are also used in the cleveland image as latitude there instead of longitude as i'd be using them.
that being said, this photo above the callahan tunnel leading to east boston i believe reminds me of the faerie on the image (and apparently callahan died while fighting in italy).
Whitey9457
cw0909 wrote::
fyi whitey, since you live in B now, help out and look for dig spots, you have a head start
on the clean up
hxxp://fenwaycivic.org/2013/04/06/volun ... r-cleanup/
hxxp://fenwaycivic.org/get-involved/fen ... iti-squad/
that archway is like 50 ft from where the circles i was trying to dig at are... i investigated that area quite a lot. so far in boston, that area is probably the best area there would be to dig in... none of the other places mentioned could be dug up without someone bothering you immediately
cw0909
Historic Landmarks boston and coords
not far from the Cs
Arnold Arboretum,Jamaica Plain
42.2978°N 71.1228°W
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Na ... _Landmarks
Whitey9457
Not that I really think it is Providence yet, but after a quick google search just to see if anything looked familiar I saw these photos:
a number of post offices have stood out as well which rang a bell when it came to the quote about "letters"
Whitey9457
cw0909 wrote::
Historic Landmarks boston and coords
not far from the Cs
Arnold Arboretum,Jamaica Plain
42.2978°N 71.1228°W
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Na ... _Landmarks
yes the arboretum would also be a place where you could dig without being disturbed i'm sure...but it's basically in the middle of nowhere. the first time i went i was like "this is still in boston?!" there would be no landmarks around to really know where to dig
WhiteRabbit
Great work, thanks! Hope you can get back when it thaws. :)
It's impossible to "prove" that it's Boston, or the 2C (the name Erexere gave to the rings where you've been digging, and it kind of stuck). It might not be. It's just the favourite. I haven't seen anything better, and someone would have to come up with something
really
good to convince the folks here it's not Boston.
Now, you can dispute any of this, say it's a stretch, whatever, but here's a summary of the main points that lead me to think this is Boston.
1) "Eighteenth Day, Twelfth Hour, lit by lamplight" - strong hint for Boston
2) "If Thucydides is north of Xenophon"
I think the main clue from this is the Walpole quote:
"There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York"
Byron loved his obscure quotes. Another strong hint for Boston, and the library is a bonus.
No-one has come up with a better verse match than Boston for that, and it would be pretty tricky. Extensive research on all the images leaves 11 as the most likely candidate. Although nothing leaps out, we can say with near certainty that it's not image 1, 2, 3, 4, etc - they fit far better with other cities. Image 11 goes with Boston partly by process of elimination, and partly because it does have some good things going for it - like the 42, and the zip code, which points directly to an area of Boston which includes the 2C.
Then other miscellaneous stuff starts to fall into place, like the way the flying fairy is a great match for a detail from a painting by the Boston artist Copley, or the way the 2C has stairs, a waterside location, a green tower of lights, and a plausible image match. Then there's stuff like the general profile of the locations BP apparently chose - significant coastal cities with cultural connections to the countries each image is associated with, the Italian immigrant population in this case. (The whole book is about the immigration of the fairy races, arriving by sea.)
None of this means the gem is at the 2C, or at Boston. But it all adds up to a very plausible solution. Plausible is good enough for me. If you look for cast-iron proof, you won't find it - not any more, maybe not ever. Only two were ever found, and BP had to personally intervene to pinpoint one of those.
While we banter away on this forum discussing variously useful and impossible theories though, it's fantastic to have someone out there willing to actually turn up and dig a hole. That's rare, so, well done. :app)
erexere
It seems like an impossible task, solving one of these puzzles, and even with all our hope and wishful thinking, you could be just a few feet away from a cask and you wouldn't know it...so frustrating. All I ever wanted most was for these to make total sense from a thematic perspective. I've played with a lot of wildly imaginative ideas and after that phase I've come to the conclusion that its going to be a fun and sensible solution, not relying on big leaps and scavengeneering.
When I referred to it as the 2C, I was thinking of a pattern similarity with Milwaukee's Grand 200 as the Grand Stair which was shapped like two Roman Numeral letters, CC=200. In this case, I thought it was a tinge of wordplay and "all the letters are here 2 C" was the plan. I've abandoned those kinds of ideas since finding there's no evidence to support such methods. Creativity has no limits...and that is a dangerous thing. To find a casque we must limit ourselves to understanding and keen perception. Like that Waldpole quote or the historic 18th day, 12th hour association that strictly brings Boston to mind.
The cultural theme seems unclear to me. Is it Celtic, Italian, or red-head Scottish or Nordic Viking? The woman's hair looks like its fanned out, but why? Is there a constant warm draft of air rising up where she stands? Is she touching a tesla coil? In any case it seems to indicate something...its just tough to process the Individual pieces and then find a convincing fit to a single area. From thepicture alone we could be anywhere, which is why we need to focus on the verse, those are tbe words that will constrain us to short set of features that work together in isolating that unique spot.
Whitey9457
Maybe I'm just slightly frustrated, and I am still certainly up for digging in the 2C location, but I'm really still hoping that I can be convinced better before the time comes.
What is the zip code clue? 02115 is the zip code in that location if I'm correct... I'm assuming that the area around the flower petals is what you're looking at?
In the solved solutions - wasn't the image what indicates the city and the verse is then the map within the city? So the X and T lines might make more sense once we find the right city instead of us basing the city on them... same with the Longfellow quote...
Since everyone seems pretty certain about this location and we can't dig there until spring anyways, maybe in the meantime we should look at other cities just in case? People have been looking at boston pretty seriously for at least 5 years and there really hasn't been any dead matches. and boston is really a pretty small city i've walked back and forth across this city numerous times. maybe the clues were destroyed, but who knows maybe we're just in the wrong city. No one has given a different city serious thought in quite some time it seems...
I'm still only up to page 60 of the comments so i'm still not sure how things progressed to the 2C area, but when I read the solutions for the solved puzzles they make more sense than the deciphered clues here so far.
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
What is the zip code clue? 02115 is the zip code in that location if I'm correct... I'm assuming that the area around the flower petals is what you're looking at?
Yep, it's backwards in the petals.
Whitey9457
wow now reading that the chicago puzzle also used 41 as a clue...
so both chicago and cleveland used 41° N latitude as a clue and there appears to be a 41 in image 11 and yet people are ignoring that and focusing on boston... (which would be between 42 and 43, not 41 and 42)
If the walpole quote is the clue (and not the names carved into the BPL) then wouldn't it just as likely be a clue for NYC since the quote references both of them? I feel like if the quote is the clue, then it is really referencing a third city and boston and nyc are mentioned in order to find that 3rd city... most of connecticut's cities (hartford, new haven, etc) are between 41° and 42° so is providence... newport...
I guess i'll drop it until i find some type of other real clue but my gut instinct tells me that boston is wrong (even though i want it to be boston because i live here) and no clue has really convinced me that it is here....but it still might be in Rhode Island/Connecticut which are both short drives from boston...
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
If the walpole quote is the clue (and not the names carved into the BPL) then wouldn't it just as likely be a clue for NYC since the quote references both of them?
But the verse also references Revere, so Boston makes more sense.
When people start on this there's inevitably an unwillingness to accept any of the dogma. People would rather make their own way with it. Sometimes they come round. Sometimes we lose them to the Dark Side and they end up like Erexere.
erexere
whiterabbit, I'm your father.
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
Maybe I'm just slightly frustrated, and I am still certainly up for digging in the 2C location, but I'm really still hoping that I can be convinced better before the time comes.
What is the zip code clue? 02115 is the zip code in that location if I'm correct... I'm assuming that the area around the flower petals is what you're looking at?
Unknown:
In the solved solutions - wasn't the image what indicates the city and the verse is then the map within the city? So the X and T lines might make more sense once we find the right city instead of us basing the city on them... same with the Longfellow quote...
Unknown:
Since everyone seems pretty certain about this location and we can't dig there until spring anyways, maybe in the meantime we should look at other cities just in case? People have been looking at boston pretty seriously for at least 5 years and there really hasn't been any dead matches. and boston is really a pretty small city i've walked back and forth across this city numerous times. maybe the clues were destroyed, but who knows maybe we're just in the wrong city. No one has given a different city serious thought in quite some time it seems...
Unknown:
I'm still only up to page 60 of the comments so i'm still not sure how things progressed to the 2C area, but when I read the solutions for the solved puzzles they make more sense than the deciphered clues here so far.
I'm not necessarily saying I personally subscribe, but that is the theory, yes. The zip code is a stretch to me. I have a hard time seeing the 5, and then you have the numbers doing double duty at that point. I don't necessarily think it's vital to have that "clue" to get to Boston with the numbers as they already are in the image. Those mental gymnastics simply aren't required.
Regarding coordinates, I'd suggest that it isn't something to get overly hung up on in our modern age of being able to google "Boston coordinates" and get a decimal to the thousandths. Preiss was likely looking at some Mercator map of North America and probably why he had to put a "range" in the first place. That's not saying I disagree with the points your made. As you also alluded to, you can take the 112 with the Utah looking stone in the arch from Image 11 and you can jump to Salt Lake City in no time. Unfortunately, SLC doesn't fit in with what seems to be the pattern of port cities.
Do you not like the 70 on her left elbow?
This seems to be the case with the 2 solved casks, yes. I wouldn't disagree that a fresh perspective might help. I currently hang my hat on the Blyden reference and the Sarmiento quote to link Verses 6 and 2 to Charleston and New Orleans respectively, but I've also explored various combinations of verses/images outside of the ones we're generally pretty certain of (i.e Image 3, Verse 11 is a 100% lock in my mind, so no need to fiddle with that).
I like Boston as the city, but it's definitely the shakiest in my mind. A lot of it does have to do with the verse, yes, even though the two solved images were laid out exactly as you describe with the image getting you to the city and the verse being the roadmap once you're there. I'm still mostly satisfied though, that that numbers in image 11 give us Boston.
On an only slightly related note, I still have a hard time reconciling Preiss' "Right about St Louid [sic]" but not about "the location" remark. That being said, I am in the camp that he probably was not confirming treasure in St. Louis, but the exact opposite. I'm certainly not sold that he was talking about Louis Armstrong, though.
You'll get to the Caimbridge Common theory.
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
But the verse also references Revere, so Boston makes more sense.
I agree that the reference to Revere is probably the #1 piece of proof that it is Boston... but a reference to Revere doesn't narrow anything down in Boston. If the image is meant to describe Boston and the verse is then meant to say where to dig in Boston, a reference to Revere doesn't help... it could mean anywhere in boston... a reference to Revere in providence or newport would narrow it down considerably...
For example:
The largest bell Revere cast lives in the First Unitarian Church in Providence.
Cannons cast by Revere still live in and old armory building in Newport, RI (a location where Revere served in the militia for some time), etc.
Again, not saying that either of those locations are it... but I can't get over the fact that Boston is not between 41° and 42° N latitude and I really think that some type of stronger connection would've been made by now if we were looking in the right spot. Boston has changed a lot but most of the really historical buildings I believe would've been protected. Also, there just aren't many spots you can dig in Boston (granted, the 2C location is probably a spot where you could get away with digging)
Whitey9457
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I'm not necessarily saying I personally subscribe, but that is the theory, yes.
Regarding coordinates, I'd suggest that it isn't something to get overly hung up on in our modern age of being able to google "Boston coordinates" and get a decimal to the thousandths. Preiss was likely looking at some Mercator map of North America and probably why he had to put a "range" in the first place. That's not saying I disagree with the points your made. As you also alluded to, you can take the 112 with the Utah looking stone in the arch from Image 11 and you can jump to Salt Lake City in no time. Unfortunately, SLC doesn't fit in with what seems to be the pattern of port cities.
Do you not like the 70 on her left elbow?
This seems to be the case with the 2 solved casks, yes. I wouldn't disagree that a fresh perspective might help. I currently hang my hat on the Blyden reference and the Sarmiento quote to link Verses 6 and 2 to Charleston and New Orleans respectively, but I've also explored various combinations of verses/images outside of the ones we're generally pretty certain of (i.e Image 3, Verse 11 is a 100% lock in my mind, so no need to fiddle with that).
I like Boston as the city, but it's definitely the shakiest in my mind. A lot of it does have to do with the verse, yes, even though the two solved images were laid out exactly as you describe with the image getting you to the city and the verse being the roadmap once you're there. I'm still mostly satisfied though, that that numbers in image 11 give us Boston.
On an only slightly related note, I still have a hard time reconciling Preiss' "Right about St Louid [sic]" but not about "the location" remark. That being said, I am in the camp that he probably was not confirming treasure in St. Louis, but the exact opposite. I'm certainly not sold that he was talking about Louis Armstrong, though.
You'll get to the Caimbridge Common theory.
it's honestly the first i've heard of the backwards 70 on her elbow and now that i see it, it is fairly obvious that something is there... I could also see it saying other things, but taken with the possible "71", maybe i believe it more... although, still... Providence is at 71.xx° W too. I'm pretty sure that they could get an exact reading of latitude/longitude back then... after all, the southern border of OR/CA/NV is at 42° (Or was the first thing that the backwards 70 looked like to me)... the border between CO/WY/UT/NE is 41°... they have been able to figure out latitude and longitude for long time... maybe if the author was a sailor trying to figure it out with a sextant i'd be more willing to give a bigger range but i think that he could at least get it in the correct range (between 41 and 42) and not between 42 and 43... a google search is telling me that at least on average there is about 70 miles distance between each parallel. 70 miles might not be much in the western states or something, but that's more than the entire state of Rhode Island
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
I can't get over the fact that Boston is not between 41° and 42° N latitude
Not every image has pairs of latitudes. Where there's a pair, I've never regarded them as bounding latitudes. That's like saying, if it's just got a 41, it must be 41.0000 or something.
Personally, as a Brit, I've heard of SF, NY, Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, New Orleans...I'd never heard of Providence. Not in the same league if you ask me.
Honestly, though, arguing about it is completely pointless. By all means go research the rest of the continent. All I'm saying is, Boston is the best we've seen so far, and something would have to be better...really good...before anyone would take notice.
erexere
On some level, Preiss was an excellent researcher, but in the fact that he hurriedly laid these boxes in the ground I have a feeling he made some errors. What those errors were is anyones guess. When Egbert mentioned that he found the dig spot for Cleveland to be counter intuitive to the way it was described in the verse, being on the right side when facing from the seven steps up you hop side, it was the reverse of the description of beneath the 10th stone, 9th row, from right to left. I think we have to be prepared for some switcheroo's especially when it comes to a site that may be viewed or approached from multiple angles or sides.
Preiss might not have been fully aware of where his mistakes were made, since so few opportunities arose for him to check his work. This reminds me of Kryptos where Jim Sanborn wasn't aware for about 6 years after the K2 section was decoded that he fudged a letter and the CIA had the wrong final words "ID BY ROWS" when they should've had "X LAYER TWO". He didn't realize his mistake because he saw they had what looked like the right answer and assumed they appended ID BY ROWS as some code breaking jargon. It's quite possible the artist Palencar made some unintended errors as well. This coupled with natural changes in landscape really does some damage to our chances of detecting the right features needed to solve these.
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Not every image has pairs of latitudes. Where there's a pair, I've never regarded them as bounding latitudes. That's like saying, if it's just got a 41, it must be 41.0000 or something.
Except that both of the puzzles that have been solved have had 41° be a clue and both cities were at 41.xxx°
If there is a 41 and a 42, I think it's pretty likely that the casque would be between 41 and 42.... (if there was a 41 and a 40, I'd say it would be 40.xxxx)
The 41 and 42 are just some of the most obvious clues on the map so to completely disregard them or to assume it was a mistake i think is foolish
Providence might not be in the same league as Boston, but neither is Cleveland...
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Honestly, though, arguing about it is completely pointless. By all means go research the rest of the continent. All I'm saying is, Boston is the best we've seen so far, and something would have to be better...really good...before anyone would take notice.
i'm not trying to argue i'm just trying to find the casque... It doesn't sound like there are any new clues about boston either so i don't see the harm in a little debate about the merits of the clues used so far. maybe you'll convince me or maybe i'll convince you. the odds of me finding a clue to prove it is Providence (or somewhere else) are a lot more slim if i'm working alone and if everyone already thinks that they know the location in boston then there is really no point in looking at boston any further until spring.
I think that the 41/42 clue is better than almost anything in support of boston so far except for maybe the revere reference (but again, i think the image is used to find the city and the verse is used to find where to dig... so the revere reference could mean other things)... (18th day, 12th hour could definitely be a reference to a clock tower with a bell cast by paul revere as there is in Providence...)
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Personally, as a Brit, I've heard of SF, NY, Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, New Orleans...I'd never heard of Providence. Not in the same league if you ask me.
also on this point, being a bigger city isn't necessarily a good thing as it limits the areas that you could dig in. this is most true for cities like Boston and NYC which have been big cities for a very long time... very little green space... big cities in the west and mid-west are much more sprawled than the eastern cities so even though their populations might be really high, there is still quite a lot of green space to dig up, etc. Boston is really a tiny city but of course it is a worldly city or whatever it is basically where america started
wk
Image 11 Boston County outline
I overlaid a map of Boston onto the Pandora box part of the image and tilted the map to the right, aligning the rivers and coastline of the harbour to the drawing.
If you focus on the hand under the box and the carvings on the side of the box. Try to look at the lines, shapes and shadings and not the items depicted in the image. For example, there is a spherical shape behind the turret and roof in the top right corner of the box side. The curved line on the right matches the bend in the Mystic River. On this curved line is a very small line at an angle towards the corner of the box. This is the Wellington Bridge!
Below the curve of the circle shape is a triangular gable end of a roof. This is Charlestown and the slope of the roof outline is a straight part of the Mystic River.
The top outline of the thumb and palm of the hand holding the box is more water around Boston. The Charles River joins the Chelsea River. These are all county boundaries of Boston. If you search Google Maps for Boston, and then zoom in, the boundaries are shaded pink.
One of the difficulties is scaling of the map or plan to match the image.
So ideally another reference point needs to be found to confirm the correct scaling has been achieved. In this case, it is a part of the looping ornamentation on the left side of the box. This matches the route of the Charled River and is still part of the pink county boundary. I zoomed in on the map at this point and there is an amazing tangle of turnpike roads at this point!
Merlot Brougham
Here's the Caimbridge Common 4 (credit to Xie. I think he actually posted the Caimbridge Common stuff in the Verse 3 thread, not the this thread):
I don't know how much of this is a re-hash here, but there's also this from the SA thread (credit to Corek). Gate at Harvard:
Hard to read, but the top of the gate contains John 8:32 - "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free"
I like some of the iron work on the gate there:
Here's the back of the gate:
Whitey9457
wk wrote::
Image 11 Boston County outline
I overlaid a map of Boston onto the Pandora box part of the image and tilted the map to the right, aligning the rivers and coastline of the harbour to the drawing.
If you focus on the hand under the box and the carvings on the side of the box. Try to look at the lines, shapes and shadings and not the items depicted in the image. For example, there is a spherical shape behind the turret and roof in the top right corner of the box side. The curved line on the right matches the bend in the Mystic River. On this curved line is a very small line at an angle towards the corner of the box. This is the Wellington Bridge!
Below the curve of the circle shape is a triangular gable end of a roof. This is Charlestown and the slope of the roof outline is a straight part of the Mystic River.
The top outline of the thumb and palm of the hand holding the box is more water around Boston. The Charles River joins the Chelsea River. These are all county boundaries of Boston. If you search Google Maps for Boston, and then zoom in, the boundaries are shaded pink.
One of the difficulties is scaling of the map or plan to match the image.
So ideally another reference point needs to be found to confirm the correct scaling has been achieved. In this case, it is a part of the looping ornamentation on the left side of the box. This matches the route of the Charled River and is still part of the pink county boundary. I zoomed in on the map at this point and there is an amazing tangle of turnpike roads at this point!
wk wrote::
Image 11 Boston County outline
I overlaid a map of Boston onto the Pandora box part of the image and tilted the map to the right, aligning the rivers and coastline of the harbour to the drawing.
If you focus on the hand under the box and the carvings on the side of the box. Try to look at the lines, shapes and shadings and not the items depicted in the image. For example, there is a spherical shape behind the turret and roof in the top right corner of the box side. The curved line on the right matches the bend in the Mystic River. On this curved line is a very small line at an angle towards the corner of the box. This is the Wellington Bridge!
Below the curve of the circle shape is a triangular gable end of a roof. This is Charlestown and the slope of the roof outline is a straight part of the Mystic River.
The top outline of the thumb and palm of the hand holding the box is more water around Boston. The Charles River joins the Chelsea River. These are all county boundaries of Boston. If you search Google Maps for Boston, and then zoom in, the boundaries are shaded pink.
One of the difficulties is scaling of the map or plan to match the image.
So ideally another reference point needs to be found to confirm the correct scaling has been achieved. In this case, it is a part of the looping ornamentation on the left side of the box. This matches the route of the Charled River and is still part of the pink county boundary. I zoomed in on the map at this point and there is an amazing tangle of turnpike roads at this point!
it was just a page or 2 ago that someone tried to show me how the outline of massachusetts overlapped that same area...i'm not really buying the "outline of a state/city" drawings unless they are more clear... as in the symmetry of the tower in cleveland or that it is the isolated to a single area (like the blank space in her armpits, etc) kind of like the outline of illinois or ohio in the two puzzles. both of them used the absence between things to outline something. which you're showing me isn't the absence of anything but you're just using parts of certain things so it doesn't really make sense to me to use part of her hand and then part of the box, etc.
Whitey9457
I'm going to keep reading the comments... i'm not trying to upset anyone so i'll try and keep quiet until i find other clues or i become more of a believer in the boston theory... honestly i don't think cambridge will be any better because it's getting further away from the 41/42 clue but the pictures that you posted are compelling.
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
I'm going to keep reading the comments... i'm not trying to upset anyone so i'll try and keep quiet until i find other clues or i become more of a believer in the boston theory... honestly i don't think cambridge will be any better because it's getting further away from the 41/42 clue but the pictures that you posted are compelling.
Also, just to throw it out there:
There's supposedly a better angle that makes it more convincing but that's what I dug up for now.
Whitey9457
just keep in mind that any church you show me in boston that looks like the castle on the box, i could probably find 3 more in Rhode Island or Connecticut that look pretty much the same (there are also other buildings in Boston that look just as good or better to be fair).
some were armories, some churches, there are even old fire departments that are pretty convincing...
Whitey9457
or college buildings (new haven, ct) .... or mansions (newport, ri)
Whitey9457
just nothing so far that has made me say "BINGO!" and i think after looking in boston for this long we would've found something....
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
or college buildings (new haven, ct) .... or mansions (newport, ri)
Not all college buildings, mansions, firehouse, churches and armories are in the immediate vicinity of other corroborating clues though (i.e. the 4)
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
just nothing so far that has made me say "BINGO!" and i think after looking in boston for this long we would've found something....
I won't lobby nearly as hard for Boston as I will for some of the other cities that are still potentially debatable for some folks, but if I had a gun to my head, I would tell the trigger man that I thought image 11 lead to Boston.
jsp
Whitey9457 wrote::
am i alone in this? there just hasn't been a single thing that has made me have an "aha! of course!" moment...
hi Whitey -
you're not alone in this. I live in Boston and I haven't really been convinced by the current conventional wisdom about image 11 / verse 3. I laid out most of my thoughts
here
.
Whitey9457
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Not all college buildings, mansions, firehouse, churches and armories are in the immediate vicinity of other corroborating clues though (i.e. the 4)
not sure what you mean... almost every city in connecticut and rhode island is between 41st and 42 parallels
Whitey9457
Whitey9457 wrote::
not sure what you mean... almost every city in connecticut and rhode island is between 41st and 42 parallels
and all of them are fairly close to 71st meridian (at least about as close as boston is to the 42nd parallel...) but the 70/71 in the painting are not nearly as much of a "sure thing" as the 41/42 are
Merlot Brougham
Unknown:
not sure what you mean... almost every city in connecticut and rhode island is between 41st and 42 parallels
The visual clue. The 4 from the Cambridge Common building that matches the font of the 4 in the image which is a stone's throw away from the church I posted. Those are all visual clues from the same immediate area as part of the larger Cambridge Common theory.
forest_blight
I don't buy that there is a 41 clue in this image. 42 for sure (her cuff). The 43 is on one of the things hanging off her sleeve, on the right. Square = 4, triangle = 3.
Whitey9457
forest_blight wrote::
I don't buy that there is a 41 clue in this image. 42 for sure (her cuff). The 43 is on one of the things hanging off her sleeve, on the right. Square = 4, triangle = 3.
the 41 seems obvious to me after someone pointed it out. it was one of the first things that drew my attention but i didn't understand why until someone pointed out it was a '41'. or at least a '4'. the '4' there looks like a corner was missing from another block so they filled it in with a small block but i have yet to see this happen with any archway and i've been obsessively looking at stone archways for days. maybe in a wall it might occur but definitely not on the primary row of stones in an archway. maybe it is a key identifier for one particular archway... but i don't think so. i just haven't seen even 1 example stones being arranged like that except for maybe bricks where every single row is staggered. to me, the '43' seems like a much bigger stretch than the '41'... if you start looking for numbers in those vines you'll find them if you want to find them... i see 3s, 2s, 6s, 9s, maybe a figure 8 and a few cursive letters as well...
Whitey9457
Merlot Brougham wrote::
The visual clue. The 4 from the Cambridge Common building that matches the font of the 4 in the image which is a stone's throw away from the church I posted. Those are all visual clues from the same immediate area as part of the larger Cambridge Common theory.
what church is that? i will admit that the 4 looks pretty dead on but the church only resembles the castle a bit and i really think that i could find a similar 4 near a similar church elsewhere... also, it looks like the bottom of the 4 is on her left arm, but for some reason, the top of the 4 is on right arm and the top of the 4 from the image is different than the 4 in the photo you posted
Whitey9457
i guess that it isn't necessarily the other part of the same 4 on her other arm because it doesn't really look like they would line up
cw0909
i always thought the 4 of that 41 looked like a 9 because its closed and square
i think this is the building on the box
hxxp://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/parkplaz.htm
then a hint to boston would be the quote from a letter to Sir Horace Mann
There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York
hxxp://images.library.yale.edu/hwcorres ... =74&type=b
and maybe another hint to the castle building would be that
walpole wrote a Gothic horror novel, The Castle of Otranto (1764). i know a stretch
forgot the italian theme too
Otranto (Italian pronunciation: [ˈɔːtranto]
Merlot Brougham
Whitey9457 wrote::
what church is that? i will admit that the 4 looks pretty dead on but the church only resembles the castle a bit and i really think that i could find a similar 4 near a similar church elsewhere... also, it looks like the bottom of the 4 is on her left arm, but for some reason, the top of the 4 is on right arm and the top of the 4 from the image is different than the 4 in the photo you posted
That's the Harvard-Epworth United Methodist Church.
Here's Xie's explanation of the whole theory over in the Verse 3 thread:
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 83#p125483
The only thing that doesn't work is the link to pictures of the Harvard gate, but I posted those earlier.
Whitey9457
Part of me is really starting to think that the verses/images haven't been paired up correctly...
I have only been looking at this image and the verse that we're talking about. How confident are people that they are all correctly paired?
erexere
I'm confident with p1v7, p2v6, p3v11, p6v5, p7v2, p8v1, p9v10, p10v8, p11v3, and p12v9. All have really fun prospects that are thematically self-consistent. Others here share a consensus of a here-and-there consistency more like a scavenger hunt format that's developed pairings like p2v5, p6v9 and p12v10.
Whitey9457
do you mind explaining why you believe these 2 should be paired?
erexere
Unknown:
Listen, my children, and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.
Unknown:
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
I've organized my thoughts to a degree by sorting things into some cultural relevance.
Peridot of old Italy:
Antique, and olivine, and rich.
I expect that Preiss used the basic birthstone list and then expanded on it. I'd be interested in exactly what is said in the National Audubon Society Field Guide on Rocks and Minerals (1979). Does anyone here possess a copy? We know peridot is the gem quality form of olivine, which is chemically made up of Magnesium, Iron, and Silicate. I read that lunar rocks and meteorites are often containing olivine, which might be a detail supportive of any kind of moon motif.
I'm curious about the use of the word old, antique, and rich. Antiques are defined as old and collectible things. Rich is defined as abundant or wealthy. Does Boston make a good fit because it's considerably old as a town? Is Boston known for it's antique shops or something? The Italian link is something that may work, but I've been most eager to see a Celtic theme. I read that the Roman's referred to South Italy as Magna Graecia (Great Greece) because it was highly populated with Greeks. Perhaps the word "great" is synonymous with "old" and so Old Italy = Great Greece. It certainly plays well with the introductory line "If Thucydides is", since he was an ancient Greek historian. Do any other verses begin with a Greek specific line? Verse 4 definately embodies the Hellenistic culture, but it's first line simply says "Beneath two countries," which serves a more specific purpose of defining the theme of BOUNDARIES, those rivers, walls, or imaginary lines that are what separate one country from another. I think the Thucydides and Xenophon lines, the use of the word "coliseum", "all the letters are here to see" as well as the visually prominent oculus and the falcon in image 11 serve to construct the gist of "looking, viewing, spectacle, observation". Those ancient Greek historians observed and wrote down events. A coliseum is a very large place to gather and observe events. I'd like to think that all the letters are here to see is a simple reference to an eye chart. Oculi, meaning 'eye', were ancient architectural motifs designed for viewing or letting in the light of the sun, moon and stars. The falcon is a bird which is often used to epitomize keen sight. So, what to make of all these meandering facts? I think it forms a simple basis to factor in certain themes. This hints of an act of keen observation, which is why I'm really interested in the exact spot where you move from seeing to not seeing the CITGO sign. You'll notice that is almost precisely at a spot across from the Double SS entry gate to the Somerset.
In answer to you're interest in my explanation on why pair this verse and image, I'm mostly convinced by the familiar words of the Landlord's Tale,
Although I'm interested in the idea of starting at the BPL, I'm not convinced that's a good enough reason to think it's Boston. I noticed Thucydides and Xenophon written on the outer walls of the Multnomah County Library in my hometown of Portland. I think the more relevant reason for their mention is to bring focus on observing events relating to a time of war. In terms of Paul Revere, that's an easy thing to recognize, since the events of the Midnight Ride is precisely about the conflict between American and British colonies. A pivotal moment in that story involves,
Whitey9457
A few rambling thoughts....
I like your logic with the verse being Greco-Roman themed (although verse 4 kinda was too like you mentioned)...and I do find that the Paul Revere reference alone is enough to put Boston into question for the verse... but i still have trouble seeing how it relates to this image more so than some of the other images. There are greco-roman aspects of about half of the images maybe more... also many of the images have moons in them so I'd be cautious about looking too much into a moon theme in any one in particular. from what i've seen in this book, the author has a certain style (as puzzle creators/solvers tend to have...) he focuses a lot on castles and check board patterns and moons and other cryptic images... some of these i think are just style and not meant to be actual clues. I'm almost certain that the castle on the box is one of these style things... it's not meant to represent an actual castle but more likely a play on words or just a reference to the word castle (the only one i can think of for boston would be castle island)
where did the quote about "Old, antique, rich" etc come from? is that from a part of the book i haven't seen? Boston is an old city obviously but i've never heard it as known for it antiques... also, many east coast cities are pretty old. New York/New Amsterdam... Pretty sure that technically the oldest is probably St. Augustine, FL (which I know is already being looked at for another verse/image combo...), Jamestown, VA... Providence and Hartford and Salem...
I have been trying to figure out how the two verse/image combos that have been solved were paired up and can hardly find any information on that.
To me, it looks like a good way to start both of them would be by identifying the state using the image (both had a rough outline of the state) and then using coordinates to pinpoint a city and a few key identifiers from the city...(although after looking, I can't find any state outlines in any other images really unless you count the shape of Wyoming or Colorado which are basically just squares/rectangles). then I guess just trying to figure out which verse makes any sense from that area...and then using the verse as the final guide to the dig site. I have real trouble finding connections between most of the verses/images but i think that it is because i don't have the book and i'm missing something about how there is a theme to each hunt which somehow relates to the stone and a birth month, etc.
From the author's point of view... I'm thinking that he already knew the cities that he was going to bury the treasures in and maybe had most of the images done before he even did the burying... then he would use the verse to be the real map to the location, and maybe add a few identifiers to the image when he could... some people noted that certain parts of images look like they were added after the fact (sometimes they seem to have a glow around them, etc) and sometimes the perspective is odd like something is in front of/behind something for unknown reasons (but maybe that is part of the puzzle.
If i had to name an italian city in this area I would definitely lean more towards Providence... or even NY... I think you're right that Boston is more of an celtic/irish city but all of them have greco-roman architecture, etc. Our world has a big focus on greco-roman architecture/art. I will also say that I know a lot of red headed italian people which is something i didn't really know was a thing until recently because most would associate red hair with irish/scottish. But i think that the author's style shows a big focus on arches and columns, etc. so it is difficult to name any one image the "greco-roman" image... although I do agree that this verse has numerous greco-roman references.
by the way, it's funny you mention the library in Portland because Portland was almost named "boston" as I'm sure you're aware... I honestly think that there have got to be other locations where both of these names exist together but wouldn't necessarily show up on an internet search... No one has been able to make any real sense out of the line from the verse and the names on the library (the whole "if T is North of X, take 5 steps in the area of his direction") very little of that makes sense when you use the BPL as the clue... I'm not sure if anyone here is a student of logic, but if you say "If x, then y" (x = thucydides is north of xenophobe; y = take 5 steps in the area of his direction) and someone says "not x" it would not be logical to say "then do the opposite of y (and take 5 steps in the opposite direction)" that doesn't make sense. The real logical result would just be "not y" (don't take 5 steps in the area of his direction... aka... stand still)
Whitey9457
Really the only way the Thucydides/Xenophone line makes sense to me is if (1) sometimes T is north of X and sometimes T isn't north of X (meaning one of them moves); or, (2) There are more than one T so to clarify which T you're looking for, it is located with X being the reference point.
I find it interesting that sometimes the author refers to names using the first letter (off the top of my head i think Mozart, Beethoven, and Roosevelt were all referred to as M, B, and R...) but here, he spells out the names, which makes me think that it isn't really about the names but it is either about the letters T and X or those are meant to describe the shape of something maybe.... one image that pops into my head are road intersections but it could also be something smaller like planters or garden shapes or something, etc.
erexere
The Litany of the Jewels, see the thread of the same title, it's a section of the book preceding the images and verses along with an interesting tale of the Fair Folks Migration and how they mingled with the Natives briefly and then disappeared with the coming of the White Man. The LotJ is a 30 line verse that basically outlines each of the gem types and couples each with a culture. I theorize that Preiss uses very particular word choices as a way to convey the tiniest hint as to where or how each Fair Folk hid their jewel.
I'm not absolutely sure on how Thucydides and Xenophon work here. I'd like to think it means start at library and go five steps (blocks) down Boyleston to the Fens, but I don't like saying steps are anything other than taking one human step. I'm uncomfortable with a lot of switcheroo tactics. Metaphor is a difficult thing to manage when it comes to the multitude of situations we might reconstruct. If I were to adhere to just that area of Charlesgate and say the whole verse applies only to that area then I'd be tempted to say Thucydides and Xenophon ARE metaphors for lamp posts. Pretend that the ancient Greek historians are like "eyes", describing the events of the past. Eyes can't see without light, in fact that is the very nature in how eyes work, they use light to translate the visual information to the optic nerve; the most eye like thing in the area are those big white globes. Thucydides was in exile first. Xenophon in Athens was later exiled. I'd like to think the lamp post inside the fenced in plot of dirt and shrubs is Thucydides and Xenophon is the lamp post seen most directly nearest to the south and outside the fence. What happens AS you take five steps south, starting at the northmost lamp post. How do the letters of the CITGO sign or the letters of the SS line up or change in the perspective?
Whitey9457
Except, wasn't using the names to start at the BPL the only way you got to Charlesgate in the first place?
erexere
That's the common belief. I think that there's enough information to get you to the Somerset first and then begin hashing out the particulars.
erexere
I think it's important to contend with either possibility. I see no reason to be so certain that any of our common beliefs are correct. If you jump to the Landlord's Tale first and obsess over it as I have, then you'll be planting yourself right at that spot as soon as you see the big green light tower.
Whitey9457
This is why I find the Boston theory very unconvincing... it just got out of hand like a runaway train... someone said that the names are on the BPL and there is a quote that includes the names (T+X) and Boston and then everything else has been dependent on one of those two facts or both of them together. I don't think either of those make sense so everything flowing from those starting points doesn't make sense to me either.
the revere quote makes sense but it doesn't give any type of starting point... If I had to guess a starting point based on the revere quote it would be the north end...this is the "little italy" area... it is also where revere's house is and where the old north church (one if by land, two if by sea) is but i can't think of a single dig-able place in the north end. there is a city named Revere nearby...and a town called somerset and countless other references to those names too but jumping from "revere" to "somerset" is as easy as jumping from revere to longfellow...or dawes, lexington, concord... these names are all over the place in the boston area and boston is small so lots of these places are right next to each other.
For example: The somerset club is nearby on Beacon st... uses a similar symbol like the Hotel Somerset... also has a copley reference (he owned the land originally)...etc. The longfellow bridge is also right there basically and i think would make one of the better landmarks to choose (maybe the "revere" reference is actually a "longfellow" reference, etc.
Whitey9457
and i obviously don't have a better theory i'm just hoping that people will broaden their perspective here and realize that there is very little tying this puzzle to Boston or even this image and verse together at all.
there have only been a small handful of people to offer this argument in the past 100+ pages of comments and i think that they are generally the ones that are actually from Boston.... Boston is a remarkably small city and even though boston has changed a great deal, it is very good at preserving history (although sometimes reshaping it... as done with copley square)
still happy to do some digging once the time comes but I'm not really a believer in that location (boy will i feel foolish if i find the casque)
erexere
Good points. Very good. I chose to focus heavily on Thucydides and what major facts may apply to him. Historian, naval leader, exiled, lived in Thrace, and then reading the Landlords Tale brings only a few references to similar facets, such as the Somerset or the threat of imprisonment.
erexere
Restating some of my thoughts from earlier:
Thrace was north by northeast of Athens. Thucydides and Xenophon are both Athenians. If Thucydides is north of Xenophon then it's possibly a condition when Thucydides is north of Athens, which is true for the time he was living in exile in Thrace.
If we allow the lamp posts to be a metaphor for exile, then the one lamp post in the fenced off area may be treated as Thucydides. Drawing a north-south line connecting this lamp post to the nearest one, which is at a spot with it's back to the stairs and faces the water, then if we walk five steps to a spot just inside a small gate that looks like it's right across to the SS gate. It's all overgrown from the looks of this image. Whitey, got any updated shots of this little fenced area?
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction --> Lamp post Thucydides
A green tower of lights --> the closest landmark after taking five steps
In the middle section
Near those
Who pass the coliseum
With metal walls
Face the water
Your back to the stairs --> Lamp post Xenophon
Feel at home --> Landlord's Tale
All the letters
Are here to see --> the SS on the Somerset gate, directly across the street
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour --> Revere specific hint
Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free. --> walk through the cyclone fence gateway
WhiteRabbit
Whitey9457 wrote::
where did the quote about "Old, antique, rich" etc come from? is that from a part of the book i haven't seen?
Whitey9457 wrote::
Except, wasn't using the names to start at the BPL the only way you got to Charlesgate in the first place?
Whitey9457 wrote::
there have only been a small handful of people to offer this argument in the past 100+ pages of comments and i think that they are generally the ones that are actually from Boston
See here:
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/fet ... et_OCR.pdf
How we got to Charlesgate was that Four21thrasher suggested the Victory Gardens as an interpretation for "all the letters are here to see" (it has alphabetical paths), and Erexere noticed the visual similarity of this nearby structure to the globe in the pic. No-one has come up with a very satisfactory way of getting there from the library, and the library might or might not be the start of any trail, if there is a trail.
I'm pretty sure the Boston theory came long before anyone from Boston did. If there was anyone on the forum from Boston who believed in the 2C the place would have been dug up already.
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I'm pretty sure the Boston theory came long before anyone from Boston did. If there was anyone on the forum from Boston who believed in the 2C the place would have been dug up already.
you misunderstood my comment and basically went on to make my exact point. all of the people from boston who have commented in here have basically gone on to say that they don't think that boston is the solution. every single clue tying the image/verse to boston is a real stretch except for the paul revere reference. and I assure you, the location has been dug up. there were at least 3 spots in the 2C location that have been dug up...
Whitey9457
WhiteRabbit wrote::
How we got to Charlesgate was that Four21thrasher suggested the Victory Gardens as an interpretation for "all the letters are here to see" (it has alphabetical paths), and Erexere noticed the visual similarity of this nearby structure to the globe in the pic. No-one has come up with a very satisfactory way of getting there from the library, and the library might or might not be the start of any trail, if there is a trail.
i feel like i'm crazy if i'm the only one that sees what a stretch this is. basing the state, city, and dig site on alphabetical trails and a circular structure... if the hypothesis was correct, there would've been some type of confirmation by now. As I said, boston is a small city. All of the people from boston who have commented in here have gone on to say that they don't think it is boston.. and people from boston should be the ones who are trying to make it fit to boston because of course we want to find a casque in our city.
still looking for a single clue in the image that connects this to boston except for circular/spherical objects which can be found in every city and every state. both of the images that have been solved have held the clues to locate the city/state.
at this point i realize i'm on my own with looking for another solution... I do believe that this verse is possibly tied to boston... I am not convinced that the image has any connection to boston at all and so the verse and the image may be mismatched.
erexere
I think the point is that you wouldn't know it unless you understand it. Standing at the very spot its buried may still convey great uncertainty. For any spot that has been dug, its helpful to see what specific understanding got to that point, then we are learning exactly which points of view are being exhausted.
Recently the new member treetops took the time to investigate my proposed location in San Francisco. I'm very glad for the first hand look and opinions. He reported his findings in an honest manner without any foolish commentary. I really appreciated that since its a very classy and mature way to approach these difficult puzzles where we can benefit from taking a good hard look at each others ideas. I really hoped to learn the approximate age of some trees nearest where I think that casque is buried because my theory involves a specific set of branches as being used as a 45 degree visual reference to the arms of the woman in the image. Treetops reported being unable to count the rings on an adjacent tree stump because it had mold or lichens growing on it. All I'm concerned with is checking the facts. Can the lichens be scraped off? I intend to count t those rings someday. I think a nice broad chisel will work and some mineral oil to brighten the contrast. Its easy to look at a small set of trees and think they arent old enough, but if they were there at the time these were buried, and Preiss hoped for the to be found within a short period of time then using some established tree contours shouldn't be out of the question.
In the Boston prospects there are also some things which may have changed over time, such as the gate of the Somerset, it could benew, and the old letters and ironwork of the past mightve been a better match to the illustration. The cyclone fence may ave been replaced or not even been there 32 years ago. There some facts we may never know, and most of the clues might be less than perfect. It is a real puzzler of chance and tenacity.
forest_blight
We basically know there is a Boston casque from the "Midnight Ride" lines:
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
And by elimination, the image is almost certainly P11.
P1: Strong ties to San Francisco
P2: Definitely Charleston
P3: Definitely Roanoke
P4: Cleveland (proved)
P5: Chicago (proved)
P6: Strong ties to St. Augustine
P7: Strong ties to New Orleans
P8: Definitely Houston
P9: ?
P10: Definitely Milwaukee
P11:
P12: ?
The question isn't "is there a casque in Boston?" It is "which image goes with the casque that is almost certainly in Boston?" It must be P9, P11, or P12, and the most plausible choice seems to be P11.
But I see your point - maybe we ought to think outside the casque a bit. P9 looks more Italian than Dutch, and P11 looks more Dutch than Italian. I wonder...
Egbert
I think the problem that Whitey is having, is that he has not read anything about any of the other Images or Verses. So, he has no idea about the other definitive Image-Verse matches. In addition to what FB just posted - that one of the Verses points to Boston - I would also point out that there are strong latitude/longitude confirmers for Boston in Image 11. Boston's official lat/lon is 42.3581 x 71.0636. The numbers 41, 42, 43, 70, 71, and 72 can all be found in the Image. Also, Boston is a port city, and if I had to pick 12 popular port cities that are connected to immigration, Boston would certainly be one of them. My guess is that Whitey does not even know about the port city/immigration theme either. Not sure why everyone is jumping around to try to "prove" years of research to someone new, who has only read about 1/20th of the research.
I am not trying to be harsh, and sorry if it comes across that way. I am just trying to explain that a new person should not shoot down years of research if he or she has not read the rest of the research. I welcome Whitey, and I am glad that he is so eager to dig, but saying "I don't think there is a treasure in Boston" is not too helpful to anyone. ;)
Egbert
Also, if you look at an overview of Boston's harbor in Google Maps, there are many places which look like the strands in the woman's hair (both left and right).
rookhunter
We should agree on a spot so maybe Whitey can dig there (come warmer weather).
Merlot Brougham
forest_blight wrote::
P9: ?
P12: ?
But I see your point - maybe we ought to think outside the casque a bit. P9 looks more Italian than Dutch, and P11 looks more Dutch than Italian. I wonder...
I think this is very conservative considering the strong ("strong" also being conservative) evidence for Montreal and New York.
forest_blight
Merlot wrote::
I think this is very conservative considering the strong ("strong" also being conservative) evidence for Montreal and New York.
I grant you that. But if you look at P9 and P11 with fresh eyes, would you have guessed "Dutch" and "Italian" (respectively) for these two? I would not have. Not with the same certainty I would have chosen "Chinese" for P1, "African" for P2, "Greek" for P4, etc.
wk
Boston University
"All the letters Are here to see"
Egbert
Lived right next to #11 for 3 years.
Whitey9457
Egbert wrote::
I think the problem that Whitey is having, is that he has not read anything about any of the other Images or Verses. So, he has no idea about the other definitive Image-Verse matches. In addition to what FB just posted - that one of the Verses points to Boston - I would also point out that there are strong latitude/longitude confirmers for Boston in Image 11. Boston's official lat/lon is 42.3581 x 71.0636. The numbers 41, 42, 43, 70, 71, and 72 can all be found in the Image. Also, Boston is a port city, and if I had to pick 12 popular port cities that are connected to immigration, Boston would certainly be one of them. My guess is that Whitey does not even know about the port city/immigration theme either. Not sure why everyone is jumping around to try to "prove" years of research to someone new, who has only read about 1/20th of the research.
I am not trying to be harsh, and sorry if it comes across that way. I am just trying to explain that a new person should not shoot down years of research if he or she has not read the rest of the research. I welcome Whitey, and I am glad that he is so eager to dig, but saying "I don't think there is a treasure in Boston" is not too helpful to anyone. ;)
I completely understand what you mean and I am trying to be very careful not to upset anyone that has been working on this for years... Honestly, I am not taking it lightly when I say these things... but on the flip-side, if you've been looking for clues in the same place without finding anything concrete... maybe a new angle should be looked at. Years of research and very little to show for it it seems... Often, it looks like people are simply finding clues to support their conclusion (Boston) instead of looking at the clues themselves and seeing where they lead. If you think the conclusion is Boston, and then you see some globe/sphere/circle, you might use that as support for why it is Boston but really you could find that clue to lead you to anywhere...
Also, after reading 100+ pages of comments people are very afraid to disagree with anyone on this board no matter how ridiculous some ideas are and I honestly think that it just hurts the chances of finding a casque.
I don't think I ever said that I don't think there is one in Boston. I am almost certain that the verse in question is a reference to Boston. And after reading the non-verse/image parts of the book, I have seen numerous references to Boston and Massachusetts which helps the case as well. I just don't think the image in question belongs to Boston... but you're definitely right that I need to start looking at the other images/verses more. I just think too many people started on this hunt assuming that the verse/image were paired up correctly and I really believe that if that were true, we would've found something more clear in the image by now.
Whitey9457
rookhunter wrote::
We should agree on a spot so maybe Whitey can dig there (come warmer weather).
I'm pretty sure that most people have agreed on a spot and I plan to dig there once the ground thaws... but it'll probably be the only time I dig somewhere just for the sake of the group/board and after that, I will need to believe that that's the spot before I start digging
Whitey9457
Egbert wrote::
I think the problem that Whitey is having, is that he has not read anything about any of the other Images or Verses. So, he has no idea about the other definitive Image-Verse matches. In addition to what FB just posted - that one of the Verses points to Boston - I would also point out that there are strong latitude/longitude confirmers for Boston in Image 11. Boston's official lat/lon is 42.3581 x 71.0636. The numbers 41, 42, 43, 70, 71, and 72 can all be found in the Image. Also, Boston is a port city, and if I had to pick 12 popular port cities that are connected to immigration, Boston would certainly be one of them. My guess is that Whitey does not even know about the port city/immigration theme either. Not sure why everyone is jumping around to try to "prove" years of research to someone new, who has only read about 1/20th of the research.
I am not trying to be harsh, and sorry if it comes across that way. I am just trying to explain that a new person should not shoot down years of research if he or she has not read the rest of the research. I welcome Whitey, and I am glad that he is so eager to dig, but saying "I don't think there is a treasure in Boston" is not too helpful to anyone. ;)
and my guess is that they're "jumping around to try to prove" it to me because I'm the one in boston that is willing to dig. I just want to believe the spot i'm digging might be where the treasure is and I don't just want to be the guy who is digging somewhere and taking risks just because some people told me to. that wouldn't be a very rewarding treasure to me even if i ended up finding it.
Whitey9457
Egbert wrote::
Also, if you look at an overview of Boston's harbor in Google Maps, there are many places which look like the strands in the woman's hair (both left and right).
i have some trouble seeing this but keep in mind that if anywhere in Boston has changed more than any other part, I would guess that it's the harbor so maybe it looked more convincing in the 80s
Whitey9457
I'll start looking at the other comments before looking into this one any further so sorry if I upset anyone. I'm gonna start with P9 because that sounds like the other one that people are most unsure of.
Whitey9457
forest_blight wrote::
I grant you that. But if you look at P9 and P11 with fresh eyes, would you have guessed "Dutch" and "Italian" (respectively) for these two? I would not have. Not with the same certainty I would have chosen "Chinese" for P1, "African" for P2, "Greek" for P4, etc.
I will say that at first glance, P9 looks clearly Dutch to me but P11 doesn't look clearly anything except maybe Celtic or something.
Whitey9457
And in my defense (sorry about the 10 posts in a row lol)... I may be new to this treasure hunt, but I am not new to Boston. I just moved back here but I went to high school and college in the area and have spent a lot of time here. I am a big fan of architecture and I studied art history in both college and high school. During art history classes (and American history classes), we would use art/architecture in Boston as specific examples and go to Boston on tour buses and duck boats and visit tons of different churches, museums, historic areas, etc. So I might not be an expert on The Secret but I do have a lot of info on Boston.
cw0909
Unknown:
Whitey9457
To me, it looks like a good way to start both of them would be by identifying the state using the image (both had a rough outline of the state) and then using coordinates to pinpoint a city and a few key identifiers from the city...(although after looking, I can't find any state outlines in any other images really unless you count the shape of Wyoming or Colorado which are basically just squares/rectangles).
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 31#p127131
im doing this from memory, so if im wrong please chime in and correct me please
a lot of them are in the negative space , on my old puter i had imgs of this stuff
but the drive died, and i really dont want to do it again
state outline rough imgs
img 1, CA, next to her right arm, shoulder to elbow, and front of dress is GGpk
img 2, SC, on the head of the mask
img 3, NC. rotate img 90 dg right, next to the bells is roanoke isl, next to the isl is
outline of NC, has the tip of key hanging in it you need to rotate img right
img 4, OH. next to the monument, on left above grey area
img 5, IL. next to hat/helmet on left, reverse img
img 6, FL. flip and reverse img,the jewel is lake okeechobee
img 7, LA. horse/wolf head in checker pattern, flip rotate
img 8, TX. i dont remember, i think it might have been the pig head on pillar
flipped and reversed
img 9, i dont remember,seems like it was something about the face and collar
img,10, WS. IIRC, it is in the negative space under right hand, flip reverse
img 11,MA. left side of woman, flip img over, use line of wall, and space around the
bird claw and bar of the bird perch
img 12, NY. rotate right 90 dg, follow bottom of robe and the shadow on the
bottom of the robe
cw0909
Whitey9457, if you can find one of these in boston, ill go with img 9 as boston
cw0909
WhiteRabbit, thanks now i dont have to track book down all the time
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/fet ... et_OCR.pdf
Whitey9457
cw0909 wrote::
Whitey9457, if you can find one of these in boston, ill go with img 9 as boston
lol i clearly haven't made it far enough in the comments on image 9... where was that located? I suppose I'll find out in that thread eventually...
cw0909
sorry yes here is where the legeater is (as it is known), sorry i have forgotten
the posters name
Mount Stephen Club
1440 rue drummond Montréal
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/DpGkD
found a post about some of what had been going on with the legeater,ravel07 was the finder of
the legeater
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 68#p127168
erexere
We all love to see a visual match, its exciting, but there will always be circle shaped or square shaped things to point at; ultimately we have to contend with the verse. Lets reopen the discussion on what "feel at home" means for this Boston image.
Merlot Brougham
erexere wrote::
We all love to see a visual match, its exciting, but there will always be circle shaped or square shaped things to point at; ultimately we have to contend with the verse. Lets reopen the discussion on what "feel at home" means for this Boston image.
I like "Face the water" and "feel at home" as Waterhouse street.
erexere
Nice choice, Merlot.
I've preffered "face the water" in the context of being brave. There's a sloped area that leads to the water and a fence and wall portion along Charlesgate. To brave the water simply means to be on that sloppy side. I like "feel at home" as the Landlords Tale hint.
"Feel at home" has generally been thought of as "Mothers Rest"...that's a winning concept, but I've not seen it work with any precision. Its a very challenging thing to have to choose between a place, object, or idea. Some of the literary links have interesting possibilities. Like the Pierre quote in verse 1, is it just to identify the name of the park or does it serve another purpose? We have a few key choices that may apply: authors name, book title, and context of quote. It may have been a fun exercise for Preiss to have utilized obscure book references, and yet not a necessity to unlock those origins to solve the cheque location...just understanding the application of those specific words might be all thats needed.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
Lets reopen the discussion on what "feel at home" means
Mark Twain wrote::
Boston is just as delightful a city as there is in America, and one feels more tranquilly and satisfactorily at home in it in three hours than he could in New York in as many years.
Feel at home
All the letters
Are here to see
Random and improbable connection no. 35612356
People have previously debated the possibility of "SLC" in the design of the dress. These are Twain's initials (Samuel Langhorne Clemens).
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/18690725.html
This is from one of his letters. Sounds like Boston Public Library has some of them.
hxxp://archon.bpl.org/?p=collections/controlcard&id=28
Whitey9457
erexere wrote::
Nice choice, Merlot.
I've preffered "face the water" in the context of being brave. There's a sloped area that leads to the water and a fence and wall portion along Charlesgate. To brave the water simply means to be on that sloppy side. I like "feel at home" as the Landlords Tale hint.
"Feel at home" has generally been thought of as "Mothers Rest"...that's a winning concept, but I've not seen it work with any precision. Its a very challenging thing to have to choose between a place, object, or idea. Some of the literary links have interesting possibilities. Like the Pierre quote in verse 1, is it just to identify the name of the park or does it serve another purpose? We have a few key choices that may apply: authors name, book title, and context of quote. It may have been a fun exercise for Preiss to have utilized obscure book references, and yet not a necessity to unlock those origins to solve the cheque location...just understanding the application of those specific words might be all thats needed.
also not sure if it's been mentioned but if you're considering mother's rest as the final location and not a clue.... it is paved over (kind of rubbery material like a track) so there will never be any digging there.
Deuce
If the rain that we're getting here in Ohio reaches Boston then digging should be a piece of cake if you're still up for it. The ground out here is mush and it's 55 degrees. Hope you get this thaw that's making its way out there. Just an FYI.
cw0909
Unknown:
whitey there was /is some old imgs here someplace of MR taken in 86, and i dont think there was a place to dig
except near a street light thats not there anymore, and in that img it said in the discript, only one way in,and i
think it was from the fire station area, and the stairs that lead down now fron the O'reily statue, didnt happen
until this see below, JMO, have not found concrete proof
concerning the O'Reilly statue, and the steps, i ran across this info the statue was moved in 82
-----------------------
In 1982 major changes were again introduced to the Back Bay Fens:
The Boylston Street intersection was entirely rebuilt. In addition
to the relocation of the John Boyle O'Reilly statue, new walks were
installed and The Fenway widened.
The Back Bay Fens was so attractive that it invited institutions to
build near it. In 1899, the Massachusetts Historical Society Building,
designed by Edmund Wheelwright, was built at 1154 Boylston Street across from
the O'Reilly Memorial
https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_doc ... -20783.pdf
-----------------
Historical Society Building on the right , my guess statue was in the triangle in middle of the
intersection to the left
1978
hxxp://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=1978
1995 the statue is where it is now, wish terra server went back to 82 for boston
hxxp://bit.ly/1hQ2JXa
guessing somewhere near here,b4 it was moved
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/IK1RD
Whitey9457
Deuce wrote::
If the rain that we're getting here in Ohio reaches Boston then digging should be a piece of cake if you're still up for it. The ground out here is mush and it's 55 degrees. Hope you get this thaw that's making its way out there. Just an FYI.
it does seem to be thawing around here but with christmas coming up i am also pretty busy lately. i could maybe swing by there and check it out today. if there is snow on the ground or ice in the water way, i will assume it is still too cold to dig still...
Whitey9457
i'll also be in NYC for a few days coming up so I've been trying to set aside time to catch up on the NYC hunt
cw0909
Whitey9457 wrote::
i'll also be in NYC for a few days coming up so I've been trying to set aside time to catch up on the NYC hunt
cool take a cam, if your in brooklyn at prospect pk get lots of img,would be great
you can Gwalk the pk now
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/UFIKA
the last 2 pgs has a discussion about it
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=754.780
have fun
rookhunter
Whitey if you can, please take pics of this exact dig spot.
I think this is the spot. Perhaps more clues nearby.
WhiteRabbit
...yeah, I do like those stairs and letters. That pump house is definitely worth a closer look. I also like the possibility of a nearby spot beside the fence as the "metal wall", facing the water, your back to those stairs sideways.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...yeah, I do like those stairs and letters. That pump house is definitely worth a closer look. I also like the possibility of a nearby spot beside the fence as the "metal wall", facing the water, your back to those stairs sideways.
Standing directly at this point, quite a bit lines up -
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/eISaA
. You can even turn directly around and be looking under the bridge with a clear view of the Victory Gardens -
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/Q5w5D
Given the proportions, where the falcon/hawk is grasping seems like a pretty sweet spot.
Hirudiniforme
it seems like standing at this spot would satisfy quite a bit...
a green tower of lights in the sidewalk/street median (middle section)
you can face the water with you back to the stairs
when you do this you can see the victory gardens under the bridge
18th day 12th hour is mass. turnpike I90, where this view is from... remember the old logo
it is lit by lamplight
erexere
hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... cf217b.png
Here's a diagram I devised to illustrate the way I'm breaking down the puzzle. The final lines say "Lit by lamplight / In truth be free". I think this is basically saying 1) Between two lamps, and 2) a point of intersection like a Truth table such that If P is true and Q is true then P^Q is true, the AND statement is basically a Logical intersection. In this case P is the line connecting the two lamps and Q is the two gates creating a second line which intersects somewhere just inside the fenced in area. I think this spot must be about five steps from the spot just where the circular wall meets the waters edge and a person can stand facing the water with their back to the stairs exactly as described by the verse.
wk
The light from the two lamps could overlap as in a Venn diagram.
wk
I just noticed that my image of the 3 C lamps is incorrect. So I will redraw it when I get the time.
WhiteRabbit
I wonder if this could be a series of archways; a bridge, say.
Bit low though. More like Harvard Stadium or something.
I suspect there are various deformed and unidentified places in these images still waiting to be discovered.
WhiteRabbit
Here's a different angle.
I'm interested in visual tricks, like the building hidden in the Cleveland trees. The 45 deg line at the top right supports a shadowed perspective view. A doorway maybe...? The perch could be an edge.
Here's a random picture to try and convey the general impression.
wk
image 11 window frame stones
In connection to the image 1 moons order, I have been trying to produce an animated gif showing the position of number 1 and 9 moon/star/halo.
I have now decided that the arched window has to be moved to position the size 1 first where there is a chip in the edge of the stone, and then again to position the 9.
In case anyone thinks this is too advanced, it could all be done easily with a sheet of tracing paper.
(14438)
wk
Boston districts
I am trying to narrow down the area of Boston where the casque might be located using outlines of local districts known as neighbourhoods using Google Maps and sometimes wikipedia.
I have not found anything hidden in the image 11 yet other than the state of Massachusetts and possibly the Boston area as a whole. The area of Boston itself or Suffolk county bears a resemblance to her hand under the Pandora box.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhoods_in_Boston
hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/neighborhoods/default.asp
Now, the Fenway/Kenmore is one district which people have considered but the 2C is in Back Bay. So if the outline of either of these neighbourhoods can be found in the image 11 then that might narrow the search area. The Victory Gardens, where all the letters are, is in West Fens.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/5u0Pp
One confirmation seems to be the zipcode 02215 already found but this is still quite large and includes the Emerald Necklace.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/GfWBN
Here are some different Boston Districts, wards and precincts!
hxxp://hubmaps1.cityofboston.gov/datahu ... daries.pdf
(14484)
WhiteRabbit
Given that this is the Italian image, I once wondered if this might be Latin "PAX".
Reminds me of the Peace Bell in the Fens area.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM8G ... ton_MA_USA
Incidentally I recently heard from someone planning a trip to Boston, which prompted me to summarise my thoughts in the usual PDF. Nothing new, but here it is for posterity.
Boston PDF summary
walstib
I'm new here, and am the aforementioned person planning a trip to Boston this weekend. I intend to do some scouting in the Fens and (if time allows) the North End and the Commons. I'm open to other suggestions, so let me know if there are specific locations you think are worth checking out. I'll be sure to post photographs afterwards!
wk
I would like to see a night time view of the 3C lamps.
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Given that this is the Italian image, I once wondered if this might be Latin "PAX".
Quite an interesting visual. I never envisioned those as letters before. That's different.
walstib
wk wrote::
I would like to see a night time view of the 3C lamps.
I don't know if my timing will work for night views, but I'll try.
WhiteRabbit
I thought this building across the river from the Victory Gardens was quite eye-catching, but I guess this is too much of a stretch.
This blue area looks like it might be a word or structure.
Somewhere in this patch of land may be worth considering, using these as the "stairs". I quite like the similarity of the column and circle to this straight and curved section of the wall.
...or, reversed, at the elbow where the straight meets the curve...
I still feel this place offers the best possibility of finding a casque, but it'll probably take a GPR and a serious digging effort. I wonder if James Renner has the budget...
Hi walstib. If you visit this area, could you take some pics of this fence, and the nearby join in the wall...? I have a thing about fences. ("Metal walls"...?) And if someone could find some matching pattern in the wall, that would be a clincher.
WhiteRabbit
I suppose another possibility is that the bubble the bird is pecking, and "lit by lamplight", represent the lamp shown above, seen over the low wall of the 2C; another possible marker.
walstib
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Hi walstib. If you visit this area, could you take some pics of this fence, and the nearby join in the wall...? I have a thing about fences. ("Metal walls"...?) And if someone could find some matching pattern in the wall, that would be a clincher.
I can definitely take pictures of the fence. I can't commit to finding a matching pattern, but I'll sure try!
walstib
I spent this afternoon scouting possibly-relevant locations in Boston and taking pictures. My pictures are all available at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126777965@N07/sets/72157645898689497/
. Here's a summary of what I found:
Boston Commons, public gardens, and Comm Ave mall
: Nothing of interest
BPL and Copley
: Nothing mind-blowing. Inside the library I noticed that Longellow's name is one of a handful that appear on the arches in the lobby, and that the arch over the stairs has a pattern resembling Pandora's collar.
Mothers Rest area
: Nothing of interest.
Victory Gardens
: The main thing that struck me here is that the "letters" might not be obvious to someone who hasn't seen them all laid out on a google map. The signs for the lettered paths are fairly unobtrusive, and the only other evidence I saw was an also-unobtrusive sign on the main info board with the letters. I also considered the possibility that Thucydides and Xenophon represent the T and X paths, but I don't really like that theory because T is *south* of X.
Kelleher Rose Garden
: This is where I got excited. For those who haven't seen it before, whiterabbit made this side-by-side comparison with the overall shape of the rose garden and the image:
The first thing I noticed at the rose garden is that the layout is very easy to see from ground level, so someone who didn't have aerial photos could easily make the connection. It's a really good match - in my opinion, better in person than in the aerial picture. Unfortunately, I didn't get any pictures that show the paths well.
The second thing I noticed was that a lot of the labels on the roses had names like "Fairy rose" and other things evocative of the fair people, so I imagine BP would have loved the place.
The third and most exciting thing I noticed was that there's a planter in the southeast part of the garden (what I call the "stem") that has a good match for the S pattern on Pandora's dress:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126777965@N07/14870894795/in/photostream
It's not a perfect match, but it's at least as good as any others I've seen, and since it's located in the rose garden, its geographical location is consistent with that in the image. I don't know for sure that the planter was there in 1982, but I did find a picture at
hxxp://landscapenotes.com/2012/06/12/two-boston-rose-gardens/
suggesting that the planter used to be in the center of the fountain, so it may have been more prominent in BP's time.
Of course, that doesn't tell us anything new about where to dig, but it may help convince naysayers that we're in the right city.
2C area
: I took a handful of pictures here, but I don't feel like I got a lot of new information. The middle globe was broken, so until that's fixed, it will be hard to tell what the night-time lighting is usually like at that site.
The nook really is secluded - more so than it looks in google's pictures. The only people likely to see you would be people walking on the overpass above, and it's not very pedestrian-heavy. Here's a picture showing the view from the road:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126777965@N07/14870879985/in/set-72157645898689497
There was a blanket in the nook - it looked like perhaps someone had been sleeping there, which I took as further evidens that it's not a very visible location. I moved the blanket, took some pictures, and replaced the blanket. It also occurred to me that if someone digs there again, they could cover the digging with a blanket after the fact, since a blanket stands out much less than a hole. That said, I still don't see compelling evidence that the nook is the place where one should dig.
I got some pictures of the fence and the area between the building and the fence for whiterabbit, but didn't notice anything of interest there.
MIT pyramids
This was a longshot, but I swung by MIT to check whether Thucydides and Xenophon's names appeared on the "pyramids" in Killian Court. (I used to be an MIT student, so I'm especially excited about the prospect of a casque near MIT, though I don't see much evidence for it.) One of the pyramids was under renovation and wasn't visible, but the others confirmed my recollection that the names on the pyramids are primarily hard scientists rather than historians, so I doubt T and X are there.
Those are most of my new thoughts. Feel free to browse my pictures and ask questions. I may or may not have time to look around more on Monday.
Also, I doubt this is relevant, but the friend I'm staying with mentioned that he's an athenaeum member, in case we want to see anything inside there. I remember someone mentioning that the athenaeum doors resemble Pandora's scarves, but I agree with those who suggested that BP wouldn't use clues inside a private building.
WhiteRabbit
Thanks walstib!
wk
I like that planter. good find.
In this view there are 3 circular bushes on the path outside which seem to match too.
hxxp://binged.it/1q3pMNz
walstib
Unknown:
In this view there are 3 circular bushes on the path outside which seem to match too.
hxxp://binged.it/1q3pMNz
Interesting! That fits with something else I was thinking about: in the image, the mark in the wall to the right of the fairy looks like an arrow. It would be pointing to approximately the 3-bushes location.
WhiteRabbit
wk wrote::
I like that planter. good find.
Just kicking some stuff around...
It's a possibility. The closest so far I think, though still not as close as I'd like. But unfortunately Preiss and Palencar were basically a bit cr@p at puzzle books, so most of the time you really can't tell what's a clue and what isn't. (Someone had to say it.)
Revisiting the rose garden then, if you made your way there, I guess the closest steps are at the war memorial.
If you looked towards the water and the Victory Gardens from there, you'd be looking at the Agassiz bridge. (
Agassiz
was a Geologist who hung out at Boston's
Saturday Club
with the likes of Holmes and Longfellow.)
Here's the rose garden by the memorial (circled bottom), 2C (circled top), and bridge in the middle.
On the bridge...
I think that temple 'peace' bell is somewhere around the rose/memorial area, though I'm not sure exactly where.
walstib
I took another trip to the rose garden area yesterday. I posted new pictures at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126777965@N07/sets/72157646368357541/
.
The main new information is that I found the three bushes wk mentioned, and I don't think they're a match for the globes. Their shape/layout isn't obvious from the ground, and there are other bushes nearby. (It took me awhile to even figure out which three were the bushes in the bing image.) Look at, for example,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126777965@N07/14706390199/in/set-72157646368357541
WhiteRabbit, I got a picture of the temple bell, but unfortunately my camera's GPS didn't have a signal at the time. I believe it's in the triangular area just southeast of the garden.
I'm back home in Philadelphia now. I'm still not blown away by any of the matches in Boston, but I agree that the 2C is the most plausible casque location yet. I don't have plans to go back to Boston until January, but if someone finds new and more convincing evidence, I'll try to find the time for a weekend trip before that. Otherwise, I'll try probing the nook in the 2C the next time I'm around and the ground isn't frozen.
erexere
The nook has been thoroughly dug already.
WhiteRabbit
Has it? The only mention I've seen is Whitey9457 reporting that the ground was frozen on P99.
erexere
Yes. Two different attempts. Neither persons affiliated with this forum. I'm sorry I can't provide further details. Please dont take this as any motive to misinform. It is always possible that I've been lied to...so...take it as just that.
walstib
That's really good to know. Now I don't feel bad about not having dug while I was there.
WhiteRabbit
Nonsense - it's the effort that counts, walstib.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Yes. Two different attempts. Neither persons affiliated with this forum. I'm sorry I can't provide further details. Please dont take this as any motive to misinform. It is always possible that I've been lied to...so...take it as just that.
IMHO, that's junk. It's a real disincentive to sharing new information within the forum knowing that you are working with others outside and not siphoning the information back in.
walstib
That doesn't rule out the 2C spot overall, but I do think the nook was the most likely casque location there. It's a place where you can face the water with your back to the stairs, and it's relatively narrowly-defined.
erexere
four21, I understand. My apologies. Disregard it then. I'm not asking you to believe me. By all means, people should be encouraged to dig in that nook if they feel that's the right place.
I believe it's potentially useful to be skeptical whatever the case. I also believe there is a respect for privacy issue which is maintained by my sharing that exact information in exactly that manner. I don't think it's anything to make a big deal out of. Again, just disregard it. I don't intend to litter the forum with false claims and if you haven't notice, I'm doing my best to offer ideas for discussion as much as possible so that you, I or anyone else might use to potential success.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
four21, I understand. My apologies. Disregard it then. I'm not asking you to believe me. By all means, people should be encouraged to dig in that nook if they feel that's the right place.
I wasn't saying I don't believe it's been dug, I'm saying it's junk that you haven't shared this previously. If you are working with people who are working on the puzzle in private, you should work on it in private with them without utilizing the collective information available. Why would we share new discoveries and thoughts that get used without reciprocation?
erexere
four21, I see what you're saying. I've shared my ideas on a few forums and had various PMs that will remain private. I'm sure many of us have. In just a few cases I've found people who've come across as seriously interested in a prospective dig site. I've been as trusting as possible and I'm told by them they'll dig a spot based on my theory, but then I don't hear back. In New Orleans, I was told "Yes, a probe made contact with something in that exact spot / now waiting for permission to dig from the city / received permission /...silence". In Boston I've been told something similar, though no word on the probe attempt, and immediately no response. Then, shortly thereafter someone else checking out the site commented that it looked like someone had already dug there. (I'm not sure who said that, it was either in this forum or it was a PM which I no longer have since Mark Parry moved the site to a new server). I fully expected to hear back either way, and if by some miracle they found something I'd be the first to report the news.
At this point, I'm tired of trusting anyone. Most of the theories have been well traveled, so I'm not too concerned with what people are up to now. I find it ridiculous to think someone could knowingly use our leads to find a casque and then keep it to themselves, especially now that the keys may be redeemable. When that happens, then we'll decide how to dish out some pain and scrutiny....yes, pain first, then scrutiny.
As far as I'm concerned, the Boston site should be all you 421, you need to get yourself up there and do that dig you've been talking about. Please forget the nook, it was never buried there in the first place, and use my latest theory that suggests "passing the coliseum" means a "slave has won his freedom" meaning stand inside the metal "walled" (fenced) area and find the spot which uses the image confirmers and is lined up precisely with the $$'s of the Somerset's gate across the street. If not Boston, go to Rodanthe and give that a shot. And NOLA, I was somewhat depressed for you when you reported doing a trip there and you didn't jump on board my theory for that site.
While we're at it, I still want maltedfalcon to go do a new dig at SF. If that doesn't happen soon I'm going to have to hop a flight and do it myself.
maltedfalcon
I will go back to dig at SF just to be absolutely sure.
but I am pretty sure I solved it and it is not there anymore.
Hirudiniforme
Would anyone consider a giant "X" very nearby BPL significant?
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
As far as I'm concerned, the Boston site should be all you 421, you need to get yourself up there and do that dig you've been talking about. Please forget the nook, it was never buried there in the first place, and use my latest theory that suggests "passing the coliseum" means a "slave has won his freedom" meaning stand inside the metal "walled" (fenced) area and find the spot which uses the image confirmers and is lined up precisely with the $$'s of the Somerset's gate across the street. If not Boston, go to Rodanthe and give that a shot. And NOLA, I was somewhat depressed for you when you reported doing a trip there and you didn't jump on board my theory for that site.
I appreciate the consideration of my point. It put me in a frustrating spot because I have been working on a new Boston theory for a while now, and it is totally different than anything out there, yet very specific. I have little doubt about its correctness, and I had been contemplating posting the theory in its entirety. Now, I'm a little apprehensive. Anyhow, maybe in the coming days I'll post something, but I'm in the middle of running it by another first.
I never did make it to NOLA because of the weather on the weekend I took off in February 2014 to go. Instead, I went to Fort Raleigh and dug extensively. I'm kind of glad now because there have been some interesting ideas put forward regarding the pairing of images and verses (how is that "moons in orbit" theory coming along?). I plan on going back to Roanoke and picking up a casque at some point, just not during the theater season
. Maybe sometime after I snag this Boston one.
Hirudiniforme
I know it's already been shared, but here is a really good photo comparison of Hatch Shell:
wk
Unknown:
I'm kind of glad now because there have been some interesting ideas put forward regarding the pairing of images and verses (how is that "moons in orbit" theory coming along?)
I posted a separate thread about the pairings but I am now working on the spheres and trying to work out how best to explain my zodiac theory. That graduated curve could be the zodiac since it is under the globe of the Earth.
"A celestial sphere can also refer to a physical model of the celestial sphere or celestial globe. Such globes map the constellations on the outside of a sphere, resulting in a mirror image of the constellations as seen from Earth."
- Wikipedia - Celestial Sphere
Image 11 depicts a celestial sphere or globe of the Earth because the tilt is correct at an angle of 24 degrees from the vertical. The reflection of a light shining on the globe is from this angle and not from the Pandora box. The pole it is standing on could be the south pole. Notice it can be seen through the table which indicates glass or ice.
Anyway, just some thoughts since you drew attention to that graduated arc.
(14890)
erexere
wk, seems to me that the blank globe is modeled like one of those Earth globes on an axis. I think the axis is what is important with that visual clue. Whats an axis do? It connects two opposite points on a sphere.
Looks to me like there are three main groups of spheres. The two bubbles by the falcon. The two celestial bodies in the sky. The two watery orbs on little pedestals and the third watery or blank sphere in the axis, maybe thats a group of three.
wk
yes , did you notice that the bubbles have different axis?
... and the bubbles on the Roanoke drawing are at different angles too!
I am still working on how they might form a set of angles.
(14911)
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Whats an axis do? It connects two opposite points on a sphere.
That's not the definition of axis.
erexere
So its not accurate to say an axis can represent a geometric motif which connects two points on a globe, in this case a straight line through a sphere?
There seem to many references in dictionary sources that do describe an axis as a line which divides a shape evenly. It seems perfectly plain to suggest this line connects two opposite points on the globe. Whats up maltedfalcon?
maltedfalcon
you forgot
"Around which it rotates"
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
you forgot
"Around which it rotates"
...
i need to buy you a beer...
How about this, the $ symbol has a line dividing it in the middle, rotate it, backwards $?
Hirudiniforme
Here is a good description of the what I think are the first few steps:
erexere
There's a gate on along the walkway just north of the 2C's.
WHAT IF you take five steps after stepping through that gate?
WHAT IF the Somerset building's antique gate with the two SS's are seen as $$ symbols? (Peridot of old Italy: antique, and olivine, and rich...$$?)
WHAT IF the tower of lights is a vertical confirmation of being on the correct line of sight from the direction of the casque?
WHAT IF the metal fence existed in 1982 and as long as nobody is opposed to a metal fence being a "metal wall", a "T" intersection in the fencing could be confirmed by the shape of the falcon's perch?
WHAT IF illustrators couldn't resist Fair Folk foolishness and placed supporting ideas (not intended for the purpose of reliance for solving the puzzles, as Byron said you really only need a poem and a verse...just shadowy sneaky behind the scene type hints) throughout the book? (Like the Job Goblin on p198 as a Houston clue or the Tax Burden on p214 for this Boston clue?)
WHAT IF Thucydides and Xenophon are "T and X" or TaX? (merging a clue found on the last page of the book with the image on the front cover)
maltedfalcon
Everything you said seems plausible,
except your third premise.
the two S's look nothing at all like $ signs.
not even somewhat. I don't think that is even close
plus are you sure those gates with that symbol was in place in 1980/81?
erexere
I admit I don't know if the gate was there in 81/82.
I don't think they look like $$ either, because there's the contrast of gold SS on vertical black bars "||". Conceptually they are the $$ by merging the two. So my premise isn't that they LOOK like $$, it's an actuality that an "S" composed with a vertical line "|" is actually what makes the symbol "$".
I'm also drawing from the Litany of the Jewels. "Peridot of Old Italy: antique, and olivine, and rich." RICH = $$, seems like a very nice assumption.
AFAIK, the existence of any of these points of reference in 1981 is unverified. Maybe someone can help with verification, it would be preferable before jumping in there with a shovel.
Was the black cyclone fencing there for Byron to perceive as a metal wall?
Was the SS gate there?
Was the light tower there? (Not the newer Green one, but the older one as depicted in my 2007 Google street view image)
Hirudiniforme
I checked out Fisher College today and couldn't find how old the athletics is, so I called them up. Turns out, only 14 years.
How about this... the falcon is often called a duck hawk. This is important because it helps us identify the "mallard" in the bird's claw (turn image 90 degrees counterclockwise). Mr. and Mrs. Mallard flew all over Boston trying to find a place to have ducklings, from the Commons to the Longfellow Bridge, and finally settled on the island next to Hatch Shell. It won the '42 Caldecott. It was written by McCloskey (i.e., close key). Maybe the falcon is just a city confirmer?
Hirudiniforme
I've really been trying to think about that "12 o'clock" lately... I'm sure you've all noticed the two solid white shapes in the castle box -- what looks like a wide arrow on the right side of the box, and the circle it is pointing to that is directly above the castle in the box.
What if that circle is either the sun or the moon, which the arrow is pointing to. Could the sun or moon directly overhead be 12 o'clock? When you flip the box to see the slab and bench, the arrow that I have been saying is pointing to the dig spot is pointing through the sun (or moon)... i.e., 12 o'clock on the 18th day!
wk
I think you need to solve the last line of the verse. It has got something to do with the lamp posts. On your aerial view of the seats it is possible to line up 2 lamp posts with the seat.
In this view the lamp post on the steps and the one to the left.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/mZda7
How about the circular area illuminated by these lamps?
Hirudiniforme
wk wrote::
I think you need to solve the last line of the verse. It has got something to do with the lamp posts. On your aerial view of the seats it is possible to line up 2 lamp posts with the seat.
In this view the lamp post on the steps and the one to the left.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/mZda7
How about the circular area illuminated by these lamps?
I'm not so sure you need to solve the last line. In 90% of the verses, the last line is irrelevant. Heck, it still hasn't been solved for Chicago. Either way, not a bad idea to try and solve it. The whole area is lit by lamplight provided for the running/bike path. I haven't been able to verify when those were installed, so I've avoided including them. The green ones by the street are original though.
maltedfalcon
[quote="Hirudiniforme" In 90% of the verses, the last line is irrelevant. Heck, it still hasn't been solved for Chicago.[/quote]
Thats an awful big generalization when we only have two out of 12 solved.
Thats a 17% success rate. of which in only 50% of those the last line is unknown
so based on 8.5% you say "In 90% of the verses, the last line is irrelevant."
tjgrey
Yeah I think the last line does have relevance...at least in the majority of the verses. While I don't think every verse matches in it's "formula" or structure of directions, I do think that the last line either:
1. re-affirms the park or location
OR
2. is the part of the "narrowing-to-dig-site-line/riddle"
(thrown together ideas for last lines...)
#1: "A whistle sounds." = Hermann Park with the train (re-affirm)
#2: "The namesakes meeting near this site." = The name of the park may have the same name as something nearby (re-affirm)
#3: "In truth, be free." = Quote? (Don't remember...didn't this point to Revere?) (re-affirm)
#4: "Seek the columns for the search." = Re-affirms the park.
#5: "Get permission to dig out." = No idea. Actual permission, or other?
#6: "White house close at hand." = At first I thought this was likely an actual white house, but my current thoughts are that it is another way to point to Washington Square. (re-affirm)
#7: "To the place the casque is kept."= No idea if it's not part of the "narrowing/digging instructions."
#8: "At it's southern foot the treasure waits." = Dig/narrowing instructions.
#9: "Years pass, rain falls." = Clever. Great way to say "youth fountain". (re-affirm)
#10: "Or gaze north toward the isle of B." = Sanity check that you are in the right place (re-affirm).
#11: "By dauntless and inconquerable determination your goal." = Memorial quote (re-affirm).
#12: "Brush and music hush." = You have to use your indoor voice inside symphony halls and museums/art institutes. (re-affirm)
Hirudiniforme
tjgrey wrote::
Yeah I think the last line does have relevance...at least in the majority of the verses. While I don't think every verse matches in it's "formula" or structure of directions, I do think that the last line either:
1. re-affirms the park or location
OR
2. is the part of the "narrowing-to-dig-site-line/riddle"
(thrown together ideas for last lines...)
#1: "A whistle sounds." = Hermann Park with the train (re-affirm)
#2: "The namesakes meeting near this site." = The name of the park may have the same name as something nearby (re-affirm)
#3: "In truth, be free." = Quote? (Don't remember...didn't this point to Revere?) (re-affirm)
#4: "Seek the columns for the search." = Re-affirms the park.
#5: "Get permission to dig out." = No idea. Actual permission, or other?
#6: "White house close at hand." = At first I thought this was likely an actual white house, but my current thoughts are that it is another way to point to Washington Square. (re-affirm)
#7: "To the place the casque is kept."= No idea if it's not part of the "narrowing/digging instructions."
#8: "At it's southern foot the treasure waits." = Dig/narrowing instructions.
#9: "Years pass, rain falls." = Clever. Great way to say "youth fountain". (re-affirm)
#10: "Or gaze north toward the isle of B." = Sanity check that you are in the right place (re-affirm).
#11: "By dauntless and inconquerable determination your goal." = Memorial quote (re-affirm).
#12: "Brush and music hush." = You have to use your indoor voice inside symphony halls and museums/art institutes. (re-affirm)
I agree with your assertion about it doing maybe one of two things, but your list contains more than just the last line... you are using the last LINES (plural). Here's why I made the 90% claim:
tjgrey
Four-
Right. I should have clarified that...my thinking of "lines" is the last (seemingly) actual sentence, not just the last line of text.
Yes-agreed. In your picture, the final line of each verse (out of context of each of those line's sentences) does not look too useful...
Hirudiniforme
tjgrey wrote::
Four-
Right. I should have clarified that...my thinking of "lines" is the last (seemingly) actual sentence, not just the last line of text.
Yes-agreed. In your picture, the final line of each verse (out of context of each of those line's sentences) does not look too useful...
Keep in mind that what you call a "sentence" is subjective interpretation of which lines should be read together.
cw0909
found a good view of the benches 421 is talking about
zoom in pan left, then pan right
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.352408, ... O2aEXQ!2e0
Hirudiniforme
Before I go, I leave you with why I think the crack is crucial...
Take away the the coordinates placed in the "window," and you are left with a circle. Quarter the circle using the North Star as "N" and the "<" as "S". Place the Storrow Memorial towns in the circle and the can be lined up EXACTLY like they are on the actual memoiral (i.e., standard font allows for the letters to be split EXACTLY like they are on the memorial).
Notice how the crack splits off "WATER"? The stairs are directly behind this word.
decibalnyc
Four21, I am rooting for you!
I hope you find something as it would go towards finding more patterns in the site's and riddles.
Hirudiniforme
Thanks decibal! I have one day. I hope the opportunity to get a hole dug presents itself. If not, I've got all night.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMT1%20...%20mpass_Rose
Notice how each word is broken by a little circle? The circle in our image window is the one that
should
break WATER from TOWN.
cw0909
421 im rooting too, good news the area your looking at, hasnt seen much improvement
https://archive.org/stream/charlesriver ... 8/mode/2up
cw0909
421 see the what looks like a road/s, street, off the N in boston, is there a pathway that looks like that there
that deadend line might be the spot, it a u shape with a line off the top left corner, and then in the lower right
it looks like a backward L and stops
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
421 see the what looks like a road/s, street, off the N in boston, is there a pathway that looks like that there
that deadend line might be the spot, it a u shape with a line off the top left corner, and then in the lower right
it looks like a backward L and stops
try as i might, i have not been able to find anything that resembles the mark. i wouldn't doubt it's a clue of some sort.
cw0909
421 i know not exact match but maybe take a look around...
footbride is sorta like the mark, near the N in boston,
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.353039, ... jGE_4g!2e0
set of stairs at footbridge,is that the deadend looking line on the U mark
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.35292,- ... 72zDdw!2e0
overhead, imagine U thing flipped/reversed
https://goo.gl/maps/B6Dgf
cw0909
how close are these
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ads55ugc0d1z ... 160656.jpg
cw0909
cheers to u too
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ads55ugc0d1z ... 162950.jpg
wk
I think it is this place. The roads join and then go over a bridge.
https://goo.gl/maps/75AuZ
Get a photo of the lampposts aligned from the bench, please.
Hirudiniforme
cw0909 wrote::
how close are these
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ads55ugc0d1z ... 160656.jpg
Corner of Arlington and beacon
Hirudiniforme
wk wrote::
I think it is this place. The roads join and then go over a bridge.
https://goo.gl/maps/75AuZ
Get a photo of the lampposts aligned from the bench, please.
From what i called 18 bench?
Hirudiniforme
[quote="wk"]I think it is this place. The roads join and then go over a bridge.
https://goo.gl/maps/75AuZ
Looks nothing like this in real life.
Hirudiniforme
Just found a joint... yeah!!!
Hirudiniforme
Time to leave...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wyc88q0xuj7d2 ... 0.jpg?dl=0
erexere
I'll be...
same thing happened to me when I arrived at a hopeful casque site three years ago.
cw0909
the google car cam not so good in 2007, but big dif from 2013
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.352634, ... 07!6m1!1e1
erexere
Xiesh, I think your CCommons theory wasnt much different than 421s. Both assume there is an extensive trail of breadcrumbs derived from verse, leaving little behind for the purpose of detail and direction in the end.
In both approaches there was a hardened literal approach which gives it great value in terms of linking location facts. My problem with that is theres a chaotic aspect in reasoning when it comes to asking WHY would the puzzle be designed to include such minutiae? Is it for the purpose to get you somewhere and then see a clearly defined dig spot with the remaining verse and visual depictions? Isnt it possible that the majority of the verse works in some detail oriented fashion? Verse 4 spared us from having to identify a method of precision. Other Verses lack such explicit direction, so either it becomes obvious when we arrive at a spot with shovel or we might need to form a directional instruction out of the literal markers. Ive always resorted to asking why a marker makes sense. If the statue holds a book, maybe a library location becomes important. A statue that points with its finger might be an interesting idea. Endless possibilities, I know, but I rarely see people here invest further thought into why the objects are anything other than random assorted breadcrumbs on a scavenger hunt.
This image features a box being opened. A castle on that box suggests that the box could be a building. How does a castle or
building open? A drawbridge, portcullis, a gate, a simple door? The woman stands in front of a portal. I think the centered depiction of portal and box being opened is a key instruction to identify one gateway or opening and then another, connected by the details described in the verse. I wonder if "with metal walls" is about two things, "walls" not necessarily made of metal, and then somehow being in connection with "metal" taking the form of something wall like, gate like, or otherwise.
Invictahog
I visited the Esplanade today. The area around the Holmes monument had just been completely dug up by a bobcat. Was wondering if that was just random coincidence or part of a dig attempt? Any luck if so?
I like the victory gardens/rose garden so far. I've never been to that part of the fens so might make my way there to check it out.
wk
True line of sight
This what the last line of verse 3 is alluding to.
The Charles River Esplanade in Boston has 30 Arthur Shurcliff benches in rows either side of the Storrow Compass Rose Memorial. There are also trees and lamp posts both on the river side path and along the road on the other side of this area. So standing near bench number 18 and facing towards the river steps, there are 2 lamp posts in line. The furthest lamp post is central at the top of the steps and the one in front of that is the lamp post at the edge of the riverside path. This lamp post is now behind the horizontal seat part of bench number 27. Therefore, for a "true" line of sight to the lamp post, the seat would have to be translucent. This what you see at the bottom left of image 11 where the bird's perch pole is seen through the triangular seat end shape.
Now to get an absolute bearing of where the casque is buried, we need another bearing, and this is obtained by turning to face towards the South as shown on the Storrow compass rose. Bench number 18 is then in front of you. You should see a lamp post behind the seat but also a tree behind the seat too. This is depicted in the bottom right of image 11 where her robe is also seen through the seat shape as well as the post holding the globe. I think this translucent shape on the right is meant to depict the far end of the seat plank as if you were looking along the seat. Note that it is at a different angle to the left shape.
So my belief is that the casque is buried on the north side of bench 18 and free from obstruction.
The real credit for this goes to 421Thrasher.
(15411)
wk
True line of sight
This what the last line of verse 3 is alluding to.
The Charles River Esplanade in Boston has 30 Arthur Shurcliff benches in rows either side of the Storrow
Compass
Rose Memorial. There are also trees and lamp posts both on the river side path and along the road on the other side of this area. So standing near bench number 18 and facing towards the river steps, there are 2 lamp posts in line. The furthest lamp post is central at the top of the steps and the one in front of that is the lamp post at the edge of the riverside path. This lamp post is now behind the horizontal seat part of bench number 27. Therefore, for a "true" line of sight to the lamp post, the seat would have to be translucent. This what you see at the bottom left of image 11 where the bird's perch pole is seen through the triangular seat end shape.
Now to get an absolute bearing of where the casque is buried, we need another bearing, and this is obtained by turning to face towards the South as shown on the Storrow
compass
rose. Bench number 18 is then in front of you. You should see a lamp post behind the seat but also a tree behind the seat too. This is depicted in the bottom right of image 11 where her robe is also seen through the seat shape as well as the post holding the globe. I think this translucent shape on the right is meant to depict the far end of the seat plank as if you were looking along the seat. Note that it is at a different angle to the left shape.
So my belief is that the casque is buried on the north side of bench 18 and free from obstruction.
The real credit for this goes to 421Thrasher.
(15411)
Xieish
LMK if you want pictures of anything, I commute past that spot every single day.
wk
Unknown:
I cited the sight of a site.
Xie, you could measure the size of a concrete block and bench and the distance from each other. Then how far from a lamp or tree so that a plan could drawn to plot the lines of sight accurately. Nobody should stop you doing that.
Some further thoughts on the last line....
If you look up "True Line of Sight" it can have different meanings:
1. A wargaming term for when you have to be able to physically see the target.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_sight_(gaming
)
so in our case, it relates to seeing the lamp posts from the dig site.
2. Rifle and cannon sights are adjusted higher than the final target because the missile travels under the effect of gravity.
In our case this could be where you are looking towards the target dig site from the lamp post but the real target is below ground level!
Then there is site or sight ambiguity. If you look that up there is the sentence:
Xieish
That's a great idea, wk. Next time I head in that direction I'll grab a tape measure and try to get a more detailed "map" of what exactly that rectangle of benches looks like. Should give people a little better idea since there isn't street view for the area.
The area is surprisingly empty on cool mornings (I bike past it in the 6am hour often enough), and I've probed the ground other places in Boston without being disturbed. A lot of weird looks, and the probe never goes in past 8-10" or so, but I've gotten away with it.
I think when they dig up Cambridge Common for its scheduled park refresh this year they'll find about 150 probe holes around the ball field and Washington Elm.
wk
A reel of string might be useful.
lamp ----- lamp ------ bench ---- bench -----> casque <- bench ----- tree ---- lamp.............................................................
(15497)
jekatt
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Just kicking some stuff around...
It's a possibility. The closest so far I think, though still not as close as I'd like. But unfortunately Preiss and Palencar were basically a bit cr@p at puzzle books, so most of the time you really can't tell what's a clue and what isn't. (Someone had to say it.)
Revisiting the rose garden then, if you made your way there, I guess the closest steps are at the war memorial.
If you looked towards the water and the Victory Gardens from there, you'd be looking at the Agassiz bridge. (
Agassiz
was a Geologist who hung out at Boston's
Saturday Club
with the likes of Holmes and Longfellow.)
Here's the rose garden by the memorial (circled bottom), 2C (circled top), and bridge in the middle.
On the bridge...
I think that temple 'peace' bell is somewhere around the rose/memorial area, though I'm not sure exactly where.
This is the only area in boston that has multiple visual clues, 421's esplanade option works with the poem and the circle behind the lady in image 11 certainly does look like the
compass
rose, but it's not perfect - and even if it was, we've seen from the solved puzzles that not EVERY visual marker is in the immediate vicinity. One could certainly make a case for the war memorial as the circle behind the lady, especially with the statue there.
Remember that steps doesn't necessarily mean stairs... it could just mean, walk five steps.
I keep coming back to this area - so many matches. That white planter is too close to not be a match to her dress.
(I think)
jekatt
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Just kicking some stuff around...
It's a possibility. The closest so far I think, though still not as close as I'd like. But unfortunately Preiss and Palencar were basically a bit cr@p at puzzle books, so most of the time you really can't tell what's a clue and what isn't. (Someone had to say it.)
Revisiting the rose garden then, if you made your way there, I guess the closest steps are at the war memorial.
If you looked towards the water and the Victory Gardens from there, you'd be looking at the Agassiz bridge. (
Agassiz
was a Geologist who hung out at Boston's
Saturday Club
with the likes of Holmes and Longfellow.)
Here's the rose garden by the memorial (circled bottom), 2C (circled top), and bridge in the middle.
On the bridge...
I think that temple 'peace' bell is somewhere around the rose/memorial area, though I'm not sure exactly where.
This is the only area in boston that has multiple visual clues, 421's esplanade option works with the poem and the circle behind the lady in image 11 certainly does look like the compass rose, but it's not perfect - and even if it was, we've seen from the solved puzzles that not EVERY visual marker is in the immediate vicinity. One could certainly make a case for the war memorial as the circle behind the lady, especially with the statue there.
Remember that steps doesn't necessarily mean stairs... it could just mean, walk five steps.
I keep coming back to this area - so many matches. That white planter is too close to not be a match to her dress.
(I think)
jekatt
Ignore this part of my previous post: "Remember that steps doesn't necessarily mean stairs... it could just mean, walk five steps. "
I've long held a theory that the "take five steps" line might actually mean walk up five stairs/steps and confused myself
The shape of the Kelleher Rose garden is an EXACT match with the shape of the circle behind the lady, her dress and the "columns" hanging next to it, and that planter is right in the middle of it. Two visual markers -
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3417484 ... a=!3m1!1e3
forest_blight
jekatt - Isn't any circle an exact match for any other circle? What makes this match especially exact?
WhiteRabbit
It's not all bad though. Jekatt probably meant the general proportions of the circle and columns.
forest_blight
I dunno, I'm still not buying it. I thought you meant it aligned somehow with the cracks around the window. Also, everything below the circular window is part of our lady's outfit, not the wall/window. So I don't see this as a close match.
WhiteRabbit
forest_blight wrote::
Also, everything below the circular window is part of our lady's outfit, not the wall/window.
I'm not saying it's a great match necessarily, but we're talking about the columns either side of the lady. They're not part of her outfit. (At least, I've never seen them that way.)
forest_blight
I disagree, WR. If you follow the one on the left up far enough, you'll see it's wrapped around her upper arm and hanging down.
Erpobdelliforme
As with the Milwaukee solve and the 2Cs clue, I think Google Maps provides a lot of false positives if we attach too much significance to overhead views. I really think most of these images are meant to be seen from ground level. Any overhead renditions were probably inspired by paper maps (and their inherent imprecision with regard to boundaries), and as such, we should not be too terribly concerned if the image isn't an exact rendition of the satellite view. Having said that, I generally don't like geometric matches of any kind. As FB said, a circle pretty much looks like any other circle.
WhiteRabbit
forest_blight wrote::
I disagree, WR. If you follow the one on the left up far enough, you'll see it's wrapped around her upper arm and hanging down.
Nah, if that was hanging round her right arm, then logically you'd see the other one hanging round her left arm.
That's just a bangle, is that.
forest_blight
That's true, but it's in front of the globe, and so clearly not part of the wall. What is it then, some kind of metal frame for her to lean against? I'm sticking with my ribbon theory.
WhiteRabbit
...OK, so you're probably right...
jekatt
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
As with the Milwaukee solve and the 2Cs clue, I think Google Maps provides a lot of false positives if we attach too much significance to overhead views. I really think most of these images are meant to be seen from ground level. Any overhead renditions were probably inspired by paper maps (and their inherent imprecision with regard to boundaries), and as such, we should not be too terribly concerned if the image isn't an exact rendition of the satellite view. Having said that, I generally don't like geometric matches of any kind. As FB said, a circle pretty much looks like any other circle.
I think this is probably something to remember more often. Google maps has sort of turned armchair treasure hunting into touchscreen treasure hunting
jekatt
The images were put together based on pictures that Preiss handed to the artist, correct?
Found an old pic of the rose garden... the shape is very distinguishable. I agree that it's not an exact match bc of the tapestry or whatever that wraps around the woman's arm in image 11, but that combined with the white stone / planter thing in the middle there is almost too much of a coincidence
I just can't get past the pattern on the fountain in the middle
Xieish
It would be if there weren't multiple parks shaped like that just in the Boston area. For example, Longfellow park, which is the park which initially got my interested in this hunt. I (naively) read about it, looked at the image, and jumped out of the house to go here:
https://goo.gl/maps/cCEda
It's right by the Longfellow House (feel at home!) that houses all of Longfellows letters (all the letters!) LONGFELLOW!!!! But nah, it's an empty park with no visual matches
I think 421 has more than adequately explained the Circle/Robe for my needs. It would take something very, very strong to pull me away from the Esplanade. I've got a derivative theory from 421's that puts the casque close by as well, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post it, since 421's is no longer public.
As usual, I live in Boston, work in Cambridge, and am happy to take photos of anything for anyone.
Xieish
Here is something I've been sitting on for a while and had dismissed out of hand. I can't remember if four21 had pictures of this statue or not, but it's been bugging me for almost a year now:
Do you see a resemblance between the man's arm position and hand position and image #11?
https://irs3.4sqi.net/img/general/width ... 5F1C4K.jpg
decibalnyc
It's similar to the image but not dead on, the fingers are in a different position...it is very close tho.
If it were a match it would be more like this...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7djbfe1i130u ... l.png?dl=0
Granted there is some gum stuck to the hand in this pic, but the match is close enough here that you could say ah-ha.
Xieish
It's very, very close. And that's not my picture, so I can try to do better.
If it helps, this statue is located at the DCR Memorial Hatch shell on the Charles River Esplanade...
edit: The Juneau statue's hand position isn't perfect either. The location of the fingers is a bit different, there's spacing between the middle and ring fingers that isn't in both. IMO it's a very similar "amount" of matching. The location makes it a no-brainer IMO.
decibalnyc
It's an unusual hand gesture, for the MKE one, and it doesn't match 100% I agree but there is a striking resemblance. Also consider the advances in photography from the polaroid, to where we are now...
I have made it well known that my MKE solution is fair at best, I think if you approach this match with the same humility, just keep it in the back of your head that it's probably wrong...BUT if other clues are found there that make sense, investigation is warranted. The esplanade is where the yard with the benches are right...the library area? So if that statue is less than 1/4 of a mile from the bench area, it could be a match to either circle in on the area, or its a waypoint in a straight line from another clue.
As far as we know, he either boxes you in an area, or takes you in a relatively direct path from one thing to the next...if it doesn't fit into one of those 2 scenario's the chance goes down.
I think that is what makes the puzzles so interesting...things could mean absolutely nothing...until it is by another thing that does mean something...it's fairly genius and I also hate it
Xieish
I dont know how familiar anyone is with four21's Boston theory - if you're aware of some of the other matches going on?
There is a string of Polaroids from the Storrow Memorial Compass all the way to the Hatch Shell. The shell is of course depicted in the bottom right of the image (the striped globe stand).
This is the latest in an unbroken line of matches in that park. I believe by "bench area" you mean the 30 benches surrounding the compass? There are tons of those benches on both sides of the Esplanade, they are not unique to 421's spot, nor are they secluded by the compass. They are unique to the park though.
There are exactly 5 bridges on your left as you walk between the Compass and the Hatch Shell, walking in the direction of the BPL, and the direction Thicydides name faces on the side of the BPL as well. If you keep walking to the next bridge you reach the Longfellow...
Edit: to be a downer the entire hatch shell is currently torn up for lawn restoration :/
Hirudiniforme
Xieish wrote::
I dont know how familiar anyone is with four21's Boston theory - if you're aware of some of the other matches going on?
There is a string of Polaroids from the Storrow Memorial Compass all the way to the Hatch Shell. The shell is of course depicted in the bottom right of the image (the striped globe stand).
This is the latest in an unbroken line of matches in that park. I believe by "bench area" you mean the 30 benches surrounding the compass? There are tons of those benches on both sides of the Esplanade, they are not unique to 421's spot, nor are they secluded by the compass. They are unique to the park though.
There are exactly 5 bridges on your left as you walk between the Compass and the Hatch Shell, walking in the direction of the BPL, and the direction Thicydides name faces on the side of the BPL as well. If you keep walking to the next bridge you reach the Longfellow...
Edit: to be a downer the entire hatch shell is currently torn up for lawn restoration :/
I am not being defensive of a theory here, only trying to clarify...
The bench spot next to the compass IS unqiue, this is the ONLY place in the park where the benches originally existed (the rest were added, and added mostly over the last 15 years). This is also the ONLY place where there is a group of benches, outside of a 2 or 3 in line. This is also the ONLY place where there is a group of exactly 30 benches in clean rows and columns.
Aside from that, by definition, if there is a line of confirmers in one direction, the same line of confirmers runs in the opposite direction. Which direction you want to take is up to you.
Xieish
How many existed in 1981/1982 though? If the answer is "more than those 30" then we need to start ruling them out. There are also benches on the other side of the river, etc. Which while not a theory I have
strong
feelings about, if you walk
from
the Compass to the Hatch, you do then come upon the Longfellow, and there's a clear Longfellow reference in the verse.
This is personal analysis: The fact that most of the other benches are isolated is in fact a good thing, and it's possible that Preiss showed us 30 of them before leading us to a solo one. Especially if "feel at home" means not only take a seat, but harken back to the beginning of your quest. A lot of them would be way easier to dig at, I've looked at most of the benches (just casually), and some of them are super secluded.
I think the best thing to do is try to find any other 'matches' that can be found, particularly anything good for "All the letters..." from the Hatch to the Longfellow bridge (which is just a continuous straight line).
wk
wk wrote::
Boston University
"All the letters Are here to see"
I found this before we even considered the esplanade as a site. It is another confirmer that you are in the correct place like the "look north " in Roanoke.
Xieish
Massachusetts has a Safe Dig law, which sucks for doing a clandestine dig. It's going to be tough to get permission and everything for digging anywhere, and getting caught violating Safe Dig carries an automatic $1,000 fine.
erexere
I still believe the casque is in Charlesgate in front of the Somerset.
Ive done my best to understand alternative theories, but I can't help but lobby for the connection the LotJ has to the verse-image pairing that does the job of identifying a theme of exile and some place in a fenced in area (with metal walls) . All the letters that are "here to see" are simply letter "I's". Those being globe lights.
Xieish
*shrug* I'm trying to dig my spot, I'll let everyone know it if happens. I'm not going to be mysterious or anything, I'm sure everyone understands why I'm keeping it quiet. That's what this is all about right? Become crazy/obsessed enough to actually stick a shovel in the ground. It's the next step.
maltedfalcon
YES! Good luck!
erexere
Be confident Xiesh, be successful.
jekatt
If you want a lookout let me know, I live in Jamaica Plain and work downtown. Happy to help you avoid that fine!
Xieish
Thanks, I'll be in touch. The ground is already starting to freeze in parts of the area, so with the red tape required it may (unfortunately) be next year. It's going to torment me all winter if so.
Merlot Brougham
erexere wrote::
I still believe the casque is in Charlesgate in front of the Somerset.
Ive done my best to understand alternative theories, but I can't help but lobby for the connection the LotJ has to the verse-image pairing that does the job of identifying a theme of exile and some place in a fenced in area (with metal walls) . All the letters that are "here to see" are simply letter "I's". Those being globe lights.
Forgive me for jumping around on Boston theories, but can someone explain the inherent problems with the Victory Gardens being all the letters? People seemed to like it for a while, but I admittedly haven't scoured the thread as well as I could have. That always seemed pretty good to me, a letter for every section and all:
Hirudiniforme
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Forgive me for jumping around on Boston theories, but can someone explain the inherent problems with the Victory Gardens being all the letters? People seemed to like it for a while, but I admittedly haven't scoured the thread as well as I could have. That always seemed pretty good to me, a letter for every section and all: img
I never thought there was anything wrong with it, but I couldn't make the rest of the verse fit at a plausible location nearby, and nothing in the image matched exactly as it does at the solved dig spots. In my mind, it's very possible that the Gardens ARE all the letters. Others may disagree. However, since I shared that new theory at the compass, it seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Merlot Brougham
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I never thought there was anything wrong with it, but I couldn't make the rest of the verse fit at a plausible location nearby, and nothing in the image matched exactly as it does at the solved dig spots. In my mind, it's very possible that the Gardens ARE all the letters. Others may disagree. However, since I shared that new theory at the compass, it seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Right on. I'll trust the boots on the ground in Boston, but it's one of those things that seems to be smack dab in the same area as a lot of the ideas being discussed. Maybe I need to read up on Boston more.
Still need to know what her hairline and lines in the stone here represent:
Also, and maybe this is more for Xieish, as I've seen him mention the Prudential Building a few times. That is this per the theory, correct (sorry if I missed this somewhere)?
wk
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Right on. I'll trust the boots on the ground in Boston, but it's one of those things that seems to be smack dab in the same area as a lot of the ideas being discussed. Maybe I need to read up on Boston more.
Still need to know what her hairline and lines in the stone here represent:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/QVYZc
I think it is this place where the paths meet on the river side of the esplanade. Note the building too.
Oregonian
Yesterday there was a pretty silly
Boston treasure hunt on Reddit
that was over almost as soon as it began. (Spoiler alert: The box was at that bar from Cheers.)
As a consolation prize, someone posted a link to the wiki for
The Secret
in the comments thread. The
wiki traffic exploded
, all with hits from the Boston area looking at Image 11. So maybe all those new eyes will bring a fresh perspective to the hunt.
wk
I thoght the dark L shape on the right was the building but now I realise that the Oliver Wendell Holmes Memorial Sundial is at this point.
hxxp://binged.it/1Hqo6cP
A possible interpretation of this L shape could be a post with its shadow symbolising a sundial maybe.
wk
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Forgive me for jumping around on Boston theories, but can someone explain the inherent problems with the Victory Gardens being all the letters? People seemed to like it for a while, but I admittedly haven't scoured the thread as well as I could have. That always seemed pretty good to me, a letter for every section and all:
here is an old interpretation of mine:
Path T is actually east of Path X but if you turn the map left 90 degrees so T is North of X then plots 1 to 5 are in front of you
"If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction"
Here is a plan showing the plots clearly:
hxxp://www.docstoc.com/docs/105492446/M ... ry-Gardens
You would be on the path P outside the plots.
Xieish
There are at least 2 parks in the Boston area that look like the painting.
The first, as I mentioned, is Longfellow Park in Cambridge. The other is the Rose Garden. I can't say anything negative about either, but I couldn't find anything else tying it all together and I don't think anyone else has either. There's definitely nothing wrong with the Garden (It's not in Longfellow Park), but someone better than myself is going to need to do some of the groundwork.
My biggest "problem" is that I'm not a super visual person. I'm more text based, analytical thinking. So the painting/matching stuff is sometimes not my strongest suit. I freely admit there's possibly things I've overlooked. There's a reason I'm trying to attack the puzzles by finding similarities and patterns rather than the old Google Maps hunt.
Boston_Bay
Hi, first post, live in the Boston region, but too far away to take a stroll to any of these locations.
I have been reading through the thread, but I'm confused by one thing: do we have a map of dig sites?
Also, I spent a while on the working side of a shovel, siting fiber lines and sewer pipes for a drilling company. Two things I learned that I think are important: 1. you always feel like you are deeper than you actually are and three feet is pretty deep, and 2. if you are off by even an inch in the ground, you will not find what you are looking for. Finding things in the ground is hard.
After reading everything, I want to take a probe to C2 and just start siting and digging... I am convinced it's there, but didn't see anything to rule it out, or anything that says it's been thoroughly explored with a shovel. What gives?
Xieish
I tried to dig today, we scoped out our area for a few hours and paid attention to people paying attention to us.
In order to demonstrate to my partner how quickly we could start turning some dirt, I stuck my trowel in the ground as a test & can no longer fully close my hand around the tool. I play a racquet sport and thought I sprained my hand, but I think I broke a bone. This may end the 2014 digging season for me.
The good news is we have a strong plan of attack - if anyone is willing to play lookout PM me, with 3-4 people we can probably dig. We stuck around until dusk, which appears to be the death knell for digging here. Cops showed up to set up at dusk for speed traps and monitoring the park in general. The lamp the site is directly under also comes on, bathing you in a beautiful LED glow.
It was 58 out today so the park was packed but a few more weeks should fix that hurdle.
maltedfalcon
Xieish wrote::
I tried to dig today, we scoped out our area for a few hours and paid attention to people paying attention to us.
In order to demonstrate to my partner how quickly we could start turning some dirt, I stuck my trowel in the ground as a test & can no longer fully close my hand around the tool. I play a racquet sport and thought I sprained my hand, but I think I broke a bone. This may end the 2014 digging season for me.
The good news is we have a strong plan of attack - if anyone is willing to play lookout PM me, with 3-4 people we can probably dig. We stuck around until dusk, which appears to be the death knell for digging here. Cops showed up to set up at dusk for speed traps and monitoring the park in general. The lamp the site is directly under also comes on, bathing you in a beautiful LED glow.
It was 58 out today so the park was packed but a few more weeks should fix that hurdle.
Um.... Why don't you just get permission to dig?
Xieish
You can't dig here, I'd love to. They won't give it and are hostile to metal detectors. The city changed a lot after the
Bombing and they're super alert to people with backpacks acting suspiciously.
You could absolutely dig here in 1981 though.
jekatt
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Forgive me for jumping around on Boston theories, but can someone explain the inherent problems with the Victory Gardens being all the letters? People seemed to like it for a while, but I admittedly haven't scoured the thread as well as I could have. That always seemed pretty good to me, a letter for every section and all:
This is my thought as well. The letters are here to see. The white planter thing in the middle of the rose gardens is a match for the pattern on the woman's dress. The lady statue at the war memorial looks pretty similar to the lady in the painting and the war memorial is a circular shape right behind her - but that's probably a stretch
Xieish
Take what I say with a grain of salt, but the letters simply existing are not the same as being "here to see." It's
Not as though there's a spot where you can see all of the signs from one place.
I'd need to see a much better match to the statue than the one I posted on the previous page or so. That isnt just a little match, it's equivalent to the Juneau statue in MIL. Coupled with everything going on, you're free to explore wherever, but I can't say I'll join in
Boston_Bay
I don't mean to distract from the back bay, which I think is an excellent place to look, but Fox keeps saying how all ideas are welcome (at least, he did in 2004). I stumbled on some strange coincidences that I was hoping might be looked into. It's something that could probably easily be discredited if it's not right, but there are too many things lining up, and I thought some eyes on the ground could clear it up.
Has anyone looked at Statler Park in Boston more closely?
-It is very close to the Castle at Park Plaza (looks a lot like the castle on the box in Pandora's hands).
-The building across Arlington Street from the castle (built in MCMXXVII, or 1927, so 1981 relevant) has a feature facing the castle that, from what I can tell on street view, closely matches the swirly panel on Pandora's dress.
-It is on Columbus Ave. (Italian immigrant reference)
-The legs of the statue do not have similar imagery to the two columns next to Pandora, but the overall shape seems similar to me. Investigating the statue more thoroughly could reveal something previously unnoticed; e.g. it looks like a greek theme, possibly, so maybe it has X or T on there. Who knows until we look closely?
-There are little cylindrical features with domed tops; these may look like the feature in the very bottom right corner of P11.
-It is close to the Revere Hotel, which either is close to or is on the site of the Revere House, a 19th century luxury hotel. I can't get a date on the current Revere Hotel, so I don't know if it's relevant to 1981. This isn't so strong, though: every place in Boston has a Revere reference within a block, it seems.
I got really excited when I saw a place with "Little Italy" in its name, facing the park, but it appears to have been opened in 1991. Makes me wonder about the neighborhood and its possible Italian (immigrant reference) roots.
The Statler Park statue used to be a fountain, and sort of reminds me of the stonework in the top third of the image from dated photos I could find, but I think a better picture or boots on the ground might be able to give us a much better idea.
I'm going to be eating very near here in mid/late December, and can check it out if nobody bites. Again, could be a total dead end, but who knows? Anyone interested in walking it, looking for clues?
WhiteRabbit
Xieish wrote::
Not as though there's a spot where you can see all of the signs from one place.
You can see all the letters on the sign though. It's pretty much the only plausible 'all the letters' we've seen so far.
Xieish
I have a better one
I heard back from the park, I'm working on it! The "all the letters" spot gives up the goat so I'm hanging on to it until I get a crack at it, and I'm afraid of someone trying to dig without permission and ruining it with the park administration.
Egbert
I always thought it was a good description of a post office, if there is one near your dig site.
Xieish
I'll PM some of you guys. It's not that I'm being a miser, just don't want to publicly throw it all up there while I'm in talks with the park for permission.
Merlot Brougham
shseverin11 wrote::
It could be Boston. Keep in mind that the Chicago Tower was made to look like a windmill. We could have searched every windmill in the US and have never found it. I think the key is to find the small part of the castle that matches part of the pic. I like the Boston one because of the misaligned windows. Not sure how common that is in castle architecture.
shecrab wrote::
I for one am not going with the Casa Loma idea...the Boston pic, though the turrets and wall are wrongly proportioned, are very much MORE like the box picture.
Here's a thought, however:
What if the box picture is only a metaphor? What if it's saying not "this is THE castle you're looking for" but "You're looking for a castle-like house or other structure," instead?
Another thing that nags at me are the swirls on the box--no one has yet given any explanation or ideas for those. I don't think they're only 'filler'.
2fast4u2c wrote::
I just can't seem to shake the idea that the castle on the box is too obvious and that if there is a building confirmer, it is hidden in the image better. I have been looking this image over with a fine tooth comb, playing with outlines and shading and such to see if i can find anything.
White9457 wrote::
he focuses a lot on castles and check board patterns and moons and other cryptic images... some of these i think are just style and not meant to be actual clues. I'm almost certain that the castle on the box is one of these style things... it's not meant to represent an actual castle...
digger7 wrote::
I've been looking through a book called, Great Buildings of Boston, A Photographic Guide by George M. Cushing Jr. and on page 90 is a picture of the William Lindsey house which is now part of Boston University. It doesn't have all the elements of the castle in image 11 but it does have some.
It has the correct crenelation as well as the building
to the left of the crenelation but not the tower in the middle or the tower to the right. The address is 225 Bay State Road and it can be seen on Google street views. It is not a perfect match but it is pretty close plus it is in the right area as it seems to be not too far from Copley square. And as an added bonus, according to the text underneath the picture it used to be known as "the Castle"
I came across something that I thought was very significant and was certain I couldn't have been the first to notice, but when I searched the thread for theories about the castle, there wasn't much chatter. I found one mention of it by digger7 in 2008 that everyone kind of breezed by because the hot theory was Castle Loma. There was a picture provided at the time, but I think the perspective doesn't do the discovery justice, and it was largely ignored.
While I was making sure this hadn't really been discussed well enough, I ran across a few interesting comments about the Castle that I think help build my case, starting from years ago. It's interesting to go back through some of the information, knowing what we know now. There is a lot of good Montreal foreshadowing in the Image 9 thread when everyone was certain Image 9 was St. Louis, but I digress. As far as Image 11 is concerned, here are some good insights that I ran across.
Then here comes digger in Feb 2008, who gave us the answer.
Digger fails to mention that this is located at the intersection of Bay State and
Back
. We're all hip to this being the "Back to the Water" at this point, right?:
Here are some pictures that display it from a better perspective than was posted in 2008.
Now, compare it to the castle in the image. Keep in mind that this building is called "The Castle". Remember all of the meaningless spires and offset windows in Chicago? I would suggest that he's using the same style of "filler" in this image. If you look at the artwork in Chicago that we know to be filler, and look at the box, you can chuck the entire central spire (that looks exactly like a every one of the superfluous spires in the solved Image 5), or you can throw out the tops of the two spires (that also look exactly like every one of the superfluous spires in the solved Image 5) and maybe get a better picture and see what's to the left, because it seems like a very "A-Ha" type match to me. Maybe there's a way to match up the perspective even better, like we have with Milwaukee City Hall.
Maybe a jumbled mess, but I threw in some confirmed absolutely meaningless Chicago Spires to demonstrate the same "filler" artwork.
I think the "correct crenelation" is critical. It has the precise number of crenelations (4) as the image with the not-quite-a-castle roof to the right.
I don't think it hurts at all that there are spheres and ivy all over the place either:
decibalnyc
I remember this topic and I think this bolsters the theory that the "ah ha" confirmation is going to be near the center of the image. We have fence and fixture and the columns for Chi and Cleveland close to the center of the image. If we look at NOLA and SF, we also have strong confirmations we've found near the center of the images. Here we have the match for the house on Back, in the middle of the image, in an area that has a lot of strong confirmations.
Also may I point out that it helps to go back and read over the forums to refine theories.
Xieish
The link on the gypsy's collar has always seemed the most likely "dig here" image in this painting. Mostly because it's unique, cannot be matched to anything else (it's not a statue or unique shape), and is literally lit by light coming out of the box. So I'd say that fits.
And yes, I've been re-reading each and every thread here in the past few weeks. I read them all when I first joined, but I have a much deeper (heh, don't we all) understanding of these puzzles now and a lot of it has blurred together in my head since I first read it.
edit: I think one of the problems with this puzzle is that Boston is not a good city to bury a casque. I'm sure BP did his research, but I'm not sure he was aware of just how many old turreted buildings there are in Boston.With no way to confirm for sure you're looking at the right one, it becomes difficult to actually zero in on anything.
With the known obfuscations in the other paintings, you can match part of the castle structure almost anywhere and hand wave away the rest as Chicago-like obfuscation. Not that I think this is the case here, but I have a totally different match for most of these shapes in my notes. And you know what? Neither is wrong. They're both the right shape, they're within a half mile of each other, and we'll never ever know which one was correct, even if I dug up the casque tomorrow.
One promising note, I heard back from park administration and they didn't dismiss me outright. They want to know how I'm sure about this spot. I told them this would be a one time request, because if I'm wrong, it's easy to fall down a well of digging in the same park for 10 years (with infinite respect to MF who has dug in SF many times). There's one other spot I (and others) want to check if my solve is wrong, but other than that, I'm friggin stumped.
decibalnyc
It's good to get permission...I think it's interesting that they are asking you about a "spot". I'll tell you this, when I approached the Lake Park Friends about information early on, the lady who was working with me was immediately looking for the "spot" also. Either they know about the hunt, or have had requests in the past. Could be they are just curious...but it's good that you're asking permission. Of course the razors edge on the whole permission thing is, try to have a really good logical solution when you ask, as like you mentioned, you might only get 1 or 2 chances.
IF the patterns where the light is shining are significant, maybe the 4 on the wrist has a tie to this as well, or a double meaning etc...
Oregonian
Merlot Brougham wrote::
We're all hip to this being the "Back to the Water" at this point, right?
Well, no, given that the lines in Verse 3 are: "Face the water / Your back to the stairs"
Xieish
She didn't ask me for a spot, just how I knew it was where I think it is. I have very coyly not revealed anything about the spot to them.
One thing I have going for me is my theory ends with an "X" marks the spot for me to point to, and only two 2'x2' squares to dig in (but one I favor more than the other). Whether it's right or not, it is a small area, this isn't a Chicago thing where I need to dig up a lot, and it's a much smaller area than the planter in Cleveland.
My solve has you putting your back to a set of stairs at the 5th "step." Steps 1-4 have no stairs, you take the 5th step and there are small stairs. If you face the water and put your back to them due to a neat bend in the park you are staring dead ahead (*straight at*) my solve for "feel at home," which is a building with a large (old) sign on the front about 1000 feet in further down the park. The wooden sign says in huge print the word "HOUSE" on it. My solve doesn't require anything
Other than the book and the painting. No odd literature references so it's easy to walk someone through. Decibal and Egbert I'll try to PM you from work today with some info, I think you both at least deserve to know what exactly I'm looking at, even if you aren't convinced
Egbert
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Maybe a jumbled mess, but I threw in some confirmed absolutely meaningless Chicago Spires to demonstrate the same "filler" artwork.
I went to Boston University Law School for 3 years from '84 to '87. I passed The Castle on my bicycle 5 days a week. Now that I am looking at the Image 11 box and comparing it, it certainly gives me an "aha" moment. Nice work.
(imagine if, all that time, I was living right near a casque)
Xieish
I ride my bike past here every single day on my way to work. The whole park actually. Never stopped to look at it. (The park not the castle, the castle was my
First though after Trinity/Harvard churches.
jekatt
Xieish wrote::
Take what I say with a grain of salt, but the letters simply existing are not the same as being "here to see." It's
Not as though there's a spot where you can see all of the signs from one place.
I'd need to see a much better match to the statue than the one I posted on the previous page or so. That isnt just a little match, it's equivalent to the Juneau statue in MIL. Coupled with everything going on, you're free to explore wherever, but I can't say I'll join in
I think all the letters existing in one place definitely works as them being "here to see" - but really I'm just hung up on the pattern on the dress and need to get rid of the tunnel vision
Your spot sounds super intriguing, hope you can get permission today! Looks like the cold and snow are coming to stay
Egbert
Does anyone have a closeup of the gatework on The Castle? There may be other Image matches here.
Xieish
jekatt wrote::
I think all the letters existing in one place definitely works as them being "here to see" - but really I'm just hung up on the pattern on the dress and need to get rid of the tunnel vision
Your spot sounds super intriguing, hope you can get permission today! Looks like the cold and snow are coming to stay
Yeah, if it snows it may put a freeze (har har) on things until the thaw. We'll see - if I have to go the clandestine route bad weather doesn't bug me too much as long as the ground isn't frozen.
I think my spot is worth tunnel visioning on for a bit, because what this hunt lacks are dig attempts. Not that digging is necessarily progress, but at some point you have to start testing these theories and ruling them out, otherwise we'll just go back and forth for another decade.
jekatt
Very punny
muahahaha
The good news is there seem to be enough people here to pull off a "clandestine" dig, since it would also unfortunately be "illegal" at present. Permission for the win, though.
This may be a bit of a reach but... thoughts? :
With that BU castle THEORETICALLY being the castle on that box the whole thing could flow rather well...
Start at BU Castle (bc it's on the box and we have to start somewhere)
"in truth, be free" - cross the harvard bridge, bc veritas
"take 5 steps" - those 5 bridges along the esplanade/storrow lagoon
"in the area of his direction" - towards the horace mann statue outside the state house, which also uses the "if thucydides is north of xenophon" part as mann was the recipient of that letter
"green tower of lights in the middle section" = simple green lamp posts on storrow
"near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls" - storrow goes past the garden
Then you continue with your solution which seems to be by the hatch shell, which is where this would get you.
Xieish
*Shrug* If it really is disguised as the Chicago Water Tower it's probably just something nearby rather than specifically on the path. The castle is 2000 feet from my start point and doesn't disrupt anything, I think it's perfectly consistent just the way it is.
And my solve has a nice fit for "In truth, be free" as well as the orient point for which way you should be facing when you dig at the "X" marks the spot image on the ground. If you look one way you can see All The Letters, but if you look out the other way, you see a statue of Athena, the goddess of Truth
jekatt
Ahh perhaps on top of a building w/ her namesake
Very nice!
jekatt
And "all the letters" has been there as is since 1973
I like it
decibalnyc
WK had a good post a while back about "All the letters are here to see" But I remember an even better link which involved the castle in the center of the image being matched to a castle in the UK, which has a link to some letters written, and those letters now reside at the BPL...that along with the very close match to the castle house near the site seems to put you the area of the esplanade. BPL is the right area in my opinion.
jekatt
decibalnyc wrote::
WK had a good post a while back about "All the letters are here to see" But I remember an even better link which involved the castle in the center of the image being matched to a castle in the UK, which has a link to some letters written, and those letters now reside at the BPL...that along with the very close match to the castle house near the site seems to put you the area of the esplanade. BPL is the right area in my opinion.
Horace Walpole wrote a letter to Horace Mann that said something like "there will be a thucydides at boston, a xenophon at new york"
Horace Walpole lived in the Strawberry Hill House in England, which looks a LOT like the castle on the box in image 11
WK said something about letters to or from walpole or mann residing in the BPL and said that one was titled "Thucydides" - I don't think anybody has confirmed this other than that one post
decibalnyc
I would think that it's something to consider...as convoluted as it seems...Strawberry Hill is also prominent in the hunt in another city. The more that we research all of the puzzles, the more common things we find, like Lincoln.... I wouldn't count that clue out just yet.
Xieish
My #1 "crazy" theory is that all of the puzzles are connected to the bicentennial. I keep coming across that over and over.
erexere
Xieish wrote::
My #1 "crazy" theory is that all of the puzzles are connected to the bicentennial. I keep coming across that over and over.
Tell me about it. Remember the Abroad in America book? ...published in 1976.
Merlot Brougham
Oregonian wrote::
Well, no, given that the lines in Verse 3 are: "Face the water / Your back to the stairs"
But of course.
maltedfalcon
I know this is nothing new, but I was admiring how JJP hid the longitude/Latitude of boston in the image
upright its the latitude 42.2 degrees , flip it over its the longitude 70- 71.1
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
But of course.
At this point I have seen nothing that indicates this was anyplace other than mother's rest
Xieish
Come to Boston and I'll show you.
Xieish
Preiss was beaten to the punch here in Boston it seems
hxxp://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/us/boston ... ?hpt=hp_t2
Xieish
Update: I think the park is on board. We will hopefully be doing a thorough, documented dig. Probably in the spring, unless they just give me the go ahead, then I can't promise to wait long.
I reached out to James Renner as well, if I'm going above board we might as well do this. Hopefully he can make it out to Boston in 2015.
Erpobdelliforme
This sounds promising. Good luck.
Xieish
Permission granted, working out the dates because the park archaelogist wants to come along.
As the park is now 100% aware of the site (down to a 5 foot location) I feel comfortable sharing some of the solution that I haven't posted here, as they're now watching it for illegal digging (in case I bail on the lengthy permit process) .
The final spot is an area on the ground that is illustrated in the image. The final stanza to the poem is the key, but the entire poem leads you from a starting location on a straight, uninterrupted, completely intuitive walking path to the shape on the ground I'm about to show.
(found by Four21thrasher earlier this year, incredible amounts of credit go to him for his hard work on this puzzle. I live here and he took it further than I have in a few years of trying.)
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Feel at home
All the letters
Are here to see
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free.
I won't bore you with the earlier details, but the first few steps lead you on a walk from the Storrow Memorial Compass Rose at the Charles River Esplanade to the DCR Memorial Hatch Shell (here's the bicentennial popping up again...). When you reach the Hatch shell, there are 4 things of note.
1- There is a set of stairs leading up a small footbridge. When you place your back to these stairs and face the water you are pointed
directly
at an old, historic building: The Community Boating Building. On its front is a large, old, wooden sign that says "BOAT HOUSE" [Feel at home]
2- There is a statue which I posted earlier has the same left arm as the Gypsy in Image #11. I posted this earlier in the thread, but here it is again. The statue is holding a book while our gypsy is holding a box, but the pose is perfect.
3- There is a statue that has the same
right arm
as the Gypsy in Image #11. This is the exact same type of solution we're seeing in Milwaukee - multiple nearby statues composited to form the figure in the image. Again, the pose from the correct angle is perfect, down to the "OK" sign made by the fingers.
4- The Hatch Shell itself is hidden in the painting.
(apologies to 421 for use of his image without permission)
These objects in close proximity to the hatch shell are beyond a reasonable doubt for this park.
When you walk from the stairs to the Boat House, 50 feet in front of you (in the same direction you've been walking the entire time) is the
LONGFELLOW BRIDGE
(Eighteenth Day, Twelfth Hour). Directly past the bridge the park changes name. There is a large boulder that is visible as you walk under the bridge that was placed there in 1973. The boulder has carved on it
LEDERMAN FIELD
(All the letters) and is visible from the spot I'm about to show you.
Now, we're looking for a spot that is lit by lamplight, and one also illustrated by the painting:
The lamp coming out of the box is notable for 2 reasons.
1- It is shining on the piece of her collar that doesn't match the others. Please take note of the shape which is "lit by lamplight" in the painting (this is the Image/Verse 'callback' or 'link' for Painting #11, and also the "DIG HERE" marker)
2- The pattern of the light coming out of the box is fan shaped and specific. More on this later.
So we're looking for a spot with the shape seen on the Gypsy's collar. Oh, hello there.
This spot on the ground is interesting, it's the same exact shape as on the Gypsy's collar. But where is it in relation to everything else?
Here is a picture of the LONGFELLOW BRIDGE taken from this exact spot on the ground:
hxxp://i.imgur.com/wdHu7Q8.jpg
Here is a picture of the LEDERMAN FIELD boulder taken from this exact spot on the ground. The words are only visible from this spot, the letters face in toward the bridge, it's visible for ~25-30 feet and then behind you.
hxxp://i.imgur.com/6Wg0xxB.jpg
Here is a picture of the shape in the ground
. You'll note there is a lamp post right next to it (LIT BY LAMPLIGHT). Let's look closer at the lamp. (this is another 100% credit to Four21thrasher)
The pattern of light coming out of the box matches the underside of the lamp. Here is a picture I took standing on the shape in the ground.
When you are standing on this exact spot, when you look out over the Charles River, you are looking directly at the Athenaeum Press Building. On top of the building is a large, clearly visible statue of Athena, the Greek Goddess of Truth. (IN TRUTH, BE FREE)
So there you go. This is the final part of the solution to Image #11, Boston. I will be digging it up as soon as I possibly can. I don't think the fear is honestly very high, but you
will
get arrested if you try and dig there without a permit. The park employees are aware of my dig and will be on site when we dig.
There are many, many more tiny matches throughout this park, including three "smoking guns" that all exist at the start location. Polaroid level matches. There has been no doubt that this is the correct park in my mind since Four21 first discovered it, but this is the full solve.
catherwood
Xieish wrote::
1- There is a set of stairs leading up a small footbridge. When you place your back to these stairs and face the water you are pointed
directly
at an old, historic building: The Community Boating Building. On its front is a large, old, wooden sign that says "BOAT HOUSE" [Feel at home]
hxxp://i.imgur.com/0ReqknS.jpg
2- There is a statue ...
hxxp://i.imgur.com/eSBaej9.jpg
3- There is a statue ...
hxxp://i.imgur.com/OiLzIe1.jpg
4- The Hatch Shell itself is hidden in the painting.
hxxp://i.imgur.com/Tx4h1FO.png
...
Now, we're looking for a spot that is lit by lamplight, and one also illustrated by the painting:
hxxp://i.imgur.com/4s15IPk.png
...
So we're looking for a spot with the shape seen on the Gypsy's collar. Oh, hello there.
hxxp://i.imgur.com/K47dJv1.jpg
This spot on the ground is interesting, it's the same exact shape as on the Gypsy's collar. But where is it in relation to everything else?
Here is a picture of the LONGFELLOW BRIDGE taken from this exact spot on the ground:
hxxp://i.imgur.com/wdHu7Q8.jpg
Here is a picture of the LEDERMAN FIELD boulder ...
hxxp://i.imgur.com/6Wg0xxB.jpg
Here is a picture of the shape in the ground.
hxxp://i.imgur.com/fj3v3Hm.jpg?1
hxxp://i.imgur.com/fxCNdDq.jpg
hxxp://i.imgur.com/KaY6QIG.jpg
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ilding.jpg
UGH! Please do not embed HUGE images with that
img
tag. They take forever to load and they stretch the forum beyond readability. Thumbnails with a link to the larger image would be prefered, but I know they take extra effort. (And I realize that some might not look at your evidence if you give only a link for them to click on, I really do. I just find it difficult to scroll around looking for the text that I should be reading, too, and the images don't even fit on my window size.)
On the very first point: What did that boat house look like in 1982? It is a new structure, part of renovation that began in late October 2010.
hxxp://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/bea ... ating.html
I'll try to look at the rest of the images shortly.
Xieish
The building itself is not a new structure. The dock house is new and the area around it was razed, but the Boat House has been there forever.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
The final spot is an area on the ground that is illustrated in the image.
Hard to tell exactly what that is, but if I had to guess, it's probably the base from an old light post that illuminated the path before the (relatively) new ones were installed (based on the design, I'd guess sometime during the 70's, but I'm sure you can get that information from the Park while you are navigating the permit process). The old wiring probably runs perpendicular to the box, parallel to the path, and may or may not be live and/or encased in conduit, so it goes without saying that you need to be very careful when you dig.
The other thing that strikes me concerns the last line of the verse ("in truth be free") and the Athenaeum Press building. Hard to be sure from Google Street view, but it would appear today that the buildings on Cambridge Parkway block the view. But since those buildings look (again, relatively) new, perhaps that wasn't the case in the fall of 1981. Either way, maybe that last line is meant to tell us on which side of the object to dig (WNW if I'm following you correctly) in much the same way that Preiss tell us to dig at the "southern foot" in Milwaukee, and "look north" in Roanoke. This final instruction narrows it down to one quadrant. Without it, you would have to dig a donut around an object to thoroughly rule it out, and depending on the size of that object, and how far away you are from it when you start to dig, that could be a fairly significant amount of dirt.
Good luck with the permit process, and the dig.
Kalessin
Hi... Over the past month, I found this hunt, devoured all the resources and history I can find here and elsewhere, but haven't posted anything yet. I've been running, biking and walking the Esplanade and the Emerald Necklace since the 1980's, and going to concerts at the Esplanade since 1975 or so. I'm a lifelong Boston-area resident, and I've spent a lot of time in and around the city.
The Emerald Necklace, including the Back Bay Fens, the Riverway parks, the Jamaicaway parks, the Arnold Arboretum and Franklin Park, was designed in the 1880's by Frederick Law Olmsted. The Charles River Esplanade as we know it was designed in the 1930's by Arthur Shurcliff, although some more random parks had already developed there after the first Charles River Dam was constructed in 1910, seven years after Olmsted's death. Before the dam was in place, the Charles River was so noxious and polluted that the houses of the Back Bay closest to the river were built facing away from the river and towards Beacon Street; the closest street alongside the river there is named Back Street (Storrow Drive came much later).
I believe that up until at least 1983 or 1984, the old style streetlights were still in place on the Esplanade. Round (or faceted round) poles with a curved arm at the top with a pendant light with a shade. Some of them are visible in these photos from the Boston Globe:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2014/07/02/fourth-july-celebrations/tAv1oY35eKxAaIw9jdlNgK/story.html?pic=1
In Photo 1 (dated July 4, 1975), the old streetlight style is visible on the right bank of the waterway that goes under the two pedestrian bridges.
In Photo 4 (dated July 4, 1980), in the center background, you can see the light of the streetlights that line the sidewalk that goes over to Community Boating's Boat House and the footbridge stairs. They're throwing light as if they're a pendant style (i.e. a visible circle of white light in the photo), rather than a reflecting straight down style. With the streetlight visible right over the middle of the footbridge, you can see the pole sticking up higher than the arm and the light.
I would definitely suggest researching the age of the streetlights before depending on them for a clue.
Xieish
The statue is still perfectly visible in 2014, I've spent many, many hours at and around the site
The condos are all new as of the 1990s, it was a clear view across the river before then. Easy to confirm with historical aerials and maps, but I had done tons of research on them already. Once I narrowed it down to this area I spent a lot of time thinking you were supposed to
cross
the bridge, which isn't the case. So I've already done all of the research on the other side of the river. But you can absolutely 100% still see the statue today, even with the condos. Without it was large and dominating.
I completely agree about which "side" it's on. I thought for a while that it was between the box on the ground and the lamp post but I think the final line has to be more than another "oh look, there's that thing" clue, because there's more than enough to get us here. There are enough of those boxes around the park that I think you may be right. Either way they're all old, and Four21 has already done a lot of legwork in confirming that the lamps I posted (the ones with the design matching the painting) are pre-1981.
Aa bunch of the other stuff I didn't post are park confirmers and things like that, there are significant other Polaroid level matches in this park, most of them at the start location, a few along the way. I have this down as a 'complete' solution, I don't think I accidentally stumbled on the treasure ground. The verse fits perfectly too, there are absolutely no stretches. "5 steps" means from the start location you walk past 5 foot bridges (steps) to the Hatch Shell where the statues are and the stairs. The verse picks right back up at the stairs, you pass a green tower of lights along the way.
MA has a "DigSafe" law, so the utility companies will be marking all of their lines 72 hours before I dig and the DCR archaeologist will be on site. They've seen more or less the whole "case" (some of the stuff I didn't bore you with here) and are on board with this site as well. I've brought a few casual Secret-interested folks through it as well, and the full list of things I have (it's something like 12 or 14 matches in this park to this spot) has convinced pretty much everyone. I understand that nothing is ever, ever sure without a casque in this hunt, but I think this is possible the best chance we've had to dig one up in a decade.
edit: I sort of think the Gypsys face is taken from the Athena statue. not the whole thing, but look at the lips, the brow, the nose:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenaeum_ ... statue.jpg
jekatt
Having visited this spot... I like it. A lot. Glad you decided to dig on the water side!
JimmyJames008
Hi Everybody,
My first post here. I just learned about this treasure hunt about 3 months ago and was following it on the PBWorks page. I was going back and forth about the 2C area with someone and decided to try digging in the depression that was between the two circles.
I didn't find the treasure, but i did find a lot of trash. I was not the first to dig this spot. Someone dug here sometime between October 2002 and December 2014, and when they backfilled they filled in a ton of litter that must have been all over the ground at the time. There must have been 20 liquor and beer bottles, plasitc bags, rusted tin cans, etc. I found 2 AOL 8.0 free trial CDs which is how I got the date of October 2002. I dug a wide enough hole to know that I reached the extend of the trash fill. I dug a deep enough hole that I reached the Clay bottom. The clay was really hard stuff and very moist, there was no mixing of the top soil or trash in the clay so I don't think anyone it dug up to bury something in it. Here are some photos of the dig. I got cut short by Boston and State Police, and state department of parks and recs. All 5 officers were really cool about the whole thing and were hoping I found something but asked me to stop digging and fill in the hole.
I still think this area could be the spot. Maybe someone found it already, maybe someone tried this hole and missed before me.
Photos:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/42ng47gpak61 ... -WpUa?dl=0
JimmyJames
Boston_Bay
Interestingly, though I can't say it means anything, the distance from the start point (the compass on the Esplanade) to the site xieish is talking about and the distance from the start point to the BU castle that was recently pointed out is almost exactly the same distance: 4815 ft vs 4820 ft according to the best Google Earth trace I could make.
It's close enough that a map and compass (the circle drawing kind of compass) in 1980 is totally plausible. I tried making sense out of that and anything else, sweeping the arc for other landmarks in Boston, but I couldn't find anything. If someone could double check, e.g., the angle to the BPL and a few other sites against the circular opening's markings in the image, maybe there's something to it? It seemed like such a close hit that it couldn't be coincidence if this all comes together.
Sure hope I can come along with a shovel to help! This is so exciting!
Xieish
Whomever was there this weekend, I hope you got arrested
Just got an e-mail from the park telling me that MA state police responded to a call of someone digging somewhere near the Esplanade.
Boston_Bay
No honor in digging up someone else's solve is there? That's pretty low if that's what was going on.
Xieish
It's also exceedingly dumb, the park is in full cooperation and is on the lookout for this sort of thing now. Like, come on, how stupid do you have to be?
Deuce
I like this location. I always thought the fairies dress looked like a boat. Never found any matches though until I saw your post. Not sure if this sign has always been here or been updated. Whether there was a better match 30 years ago or not I think her dress is a boat leading you in this direction. Nice work. I hope these idiots that are digging don't ruin it for you.
Xieish
Oh, snap. I'll get a ton of good photos of that building. The building itself is original, the grounds have been heavily redone. The building has tons of boats/sails - more importantly than the sign -
in the tilework on the building itself
. I'll be damned. I wouldn't be surprised if that yields something.
I'm still fine with the park. They e-mailed me to make sure it wasn't me (more of a WTF man) and they aren't gunshy about moving forward. A state archaelogist will be on site for the dig, but as it's a state park, that means state buerocracy (and over the holidays too).
JimmyJames008
To clarify my previous post about digging, I was not digging on the Esplanade. I personally don't think it is there (but I obviously don't know). I'm not trying to beat anyone to the punch by digging up there site. The area that I was digging seems that it was popular a year ago with a lot of people, I still think it's the correct area even though I came up with nothing but decade old trash. As far as dealing with the State Parks and Recs good luck to you who is dealing with them, I mean that sincerely. The parks and rec guy that showed up the day I was digging said that was a difficult road to navigate! Like someone else said Bureaucracy!!! I really hope your right because if your not, getting them to come out again will not be easy.
Xieish
If I'm wrong I don't think they will ever allow digging in this park again, which is toast for anyone else who wants to dig over by the benches, but luckily I don't think its there.
It's not at Charlesgate. Please tell me you didn't waste your time digging under that digsuting underpass. Literally nobody would give that place a second thought if it wasn't for Google Maps (non matching!!) overhead view that sort of looks almost like the "2C" or "globes" in the painting, but doesn't actually look like it.
tjgrey
I personally like the Charlesgate (area). I think with the proximity of the structures/clues it has a lot going for it.
Xie-why are you sure it's not here?
Jimmy-what made you dig in that particular spot...that far out from the circular structure? (Why not right up against it, or five paces/steps out from it?) Out of curiosity?
Xieish
Because I live here and it's a dump. It's barely a park. It has absolutely nothing going for it, just a bunch of bad half cocked matches to the verse. It's a highway on ramp with some green space near it. There is no place to walk, no actual matches to the image except the '2C' which is a total miss and te generic round lampposts which are everywhere in Boston.
Four21thrasher was correct about the park. There is no doubt in my mind of that. There are tons of matches to the image in that very park.
JimmyJames008
What really compelled me to dig that spot was the depression in the ground like someone had dug there before. It looked like some dug the spot, leveled off the ground, and over time the ground stetted into a depression. Also I was thinking maybe the plexiglass case had caved in causing the depression. It's 5-6 steps from the wall depending on your stride. Not very convincing, but not enough to discount the spot.
Photo of the depression in the ground
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93936687@N06/11360068744/
tjgrey
Xieish wrote::
Because I live here and it's a dump. It's barely a park. It has absolutely nothing going for it, just a bunch of bad half cocked matches to the verse. It's a highway on ramp with some green space near it. There is no place to walk, no actual matches to the image except the '2C' which is a total miss and te generic round lampposts which are everywhere in Boston.
Four21thrasher was correct about the park. There is no doubt in my mind of that. There are tons of matches to the image in that very park.
I'll give you the experience of being there. That I can relate to, being here. However, was that area always a dump? Or was it in the 80s?
To be fair, even though Lake Park in Milwaukee is a park, the main proposed spot is a patch of grass along the road. And For visuals, what about the three globe type balls (texture included on the posts), and the stone patterns (staggering) in the makeup of the "C"s?
I just think this area has much to be ruled out.
wk
Xieish wrote::
If I'm wrong I don't think they will ever allow digging in this park again, which is toast for anyone else who wants to dig over by the benches, but luckily I don't think its there.
Oh, no! - not the benches?
We will have to wait 200 years now.
hxxp://edition.cnn.com/search/?text=time+capsule
hxxp://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/01/06 ... opened.cnn
(16806)
Xieish
Charlesgate is a highway on ramp that everyone has hated and tried to renovate for years, basically since it was created. There is absolutely no "good" way to walk there from any landmark, T stop, museum, etc.
From various locations at Charlesgate you can see certain things that sort of match, but none of them from the same location, and no one spot where you can see them all. Also the Somerset condos being the Longfellow Poem reference is just bad. It's not correct, anyone who does these puzzles has to know by now that it's not directing us to read the poem, figure out a ship called Somerset was in it... Etc.
The globe lights are nothing at all. For one, I'm not convinced the gloves do anything in Image 11 other than hide the Hatch Shell and form a big 'B' for Boston. Second, there are lights like that and big stone 'balls' like that all over the city. Third, even at the '2C' there are more than 3 of them.
The location is very physically near my site (and four21's park find, I don't ever want to take credit away from him), so all of the clues still work. Yep, Charlesgate is near MA-2 which buzzes right by Fenway, but the exit and a big sign that says "2A - Fenway" is visible from the esplanade. Yep, from certain spots you can see the Citgo sign over the highway, but from the park as you walk to the Hatch Shell you have a perfect, clear view of it, at approximately the scale it's shown on the triangles in the Gypsy's dress.
Im actually in New Orleans at the moment but will post some of the "no, it's in this park" stuff when I get back which can hopefully put the other areas to bed. I know I've gone weird and been a total jerk before on these forums, and Im embarrassed by that, but that is not the case here. We have a park with a ton of absolute, concrete visual matches to the painting, a solid, easy to understand, and literal verse solve that culminates in a spot on the ground also depicted in the painting. That's what sets it apart from "this kind of looks like the globes." When I say this is the best chance we've had to dig one up in a decade I mean that at face value, not as a subtle way to pat myself on the back or put down other theories. All signs point to this being the spot. It's so much more developed a theory with no missing pieces.
erexere
Xiesh, you have good reason for your objections, but what do we really know for sure at this point? Too little is for
The Landlords Tale seems like a good fit for three of the short lines of verse. 18th day, 12th hour, and feel at home. Why not give a smidgen of credibility to the Somerset idea?
Xieish
Because it's not really a good fit at all, it's the type of super obscure, multi-layered 'clue' we've been chasing for years. I think the dig site located 25-30 feet from the Longfellow Bridge, which that line immediately invokes (Longfellow) and has parts of the poem painted on the actual bridge itself is not only a better solve, but the correct one in this case because
-It's also located 30 feet from a boulder that says LEDERMAN on it, which is absolutely the best solve for "All the letters" out there
-It's located in a park which contains a gigantic structure depicted in the image
-In a park with at least 2 'photograph' level matches of statues that comprise the central figure in the painting
-In a park with unique benches sitting on concrete slabs that is accurately depicted in the painting.
-A park with lamps having a strikingly similar pattern to the light coming from the box in the painting.
Etc, etc. I am not interested in exploring parks in Boston looking for esoteric links the the verse anymore. If the casque was not buried in this park then I don't know what to say. There is no point in exploring bad, multi layered verse solves. I can find you 70 more relevant/likely Longfellow references in Boston, including Longfellow Park, which is shaped like the dang painting.
Edit: if I seem overly frustrated remember that I live here. It's so so frustrating to be told to give something a chance that I've given dozens and dozens of chances to, and spent tons of time exploring because someone who has never been here thinks the aerial view in gmaps looks kind of like something and wants to dig behind a tiny electrical shed in a dump. It's not the right park, and clinging to the '2C' and a single, bad, verse link is just getting on my nerves at this point.
jekatt
Xieish wrote::
Whomever was there this weekend, I hope you got arrested
Just got an e-mail from the park telling me that MA state police responded to a call of someone digging somewhere near the Esplanade.
Seriously? People, man!
jekatt
erexere wrote::
Xiesh, you have good reason for your objections, but what do we really know for sure at this point? Too little is for
The Landlords Tale seems like a good fit for three of the short lines of verse. 18th day, 12th hour, and feel at home. Why not give a smidgen of credibility to the Somerset idea?
Why does your Somerset idea deserve a smidgen of credibility? It's just so complicated - unnecessarily so. Xieish's current idea matches the poem and the image, and it does so VERY SIMPLY. You don't have to make assumptions... remember how you thought it had to do with exile because the poem started with the word "If"?
If his new idea is not fruitful after the dig he put all sorts of time and effort into getting approval for, then it's certainly reasonable to re-visit old ideas. But why, at this point, are the more convoluted ideas even being mentioned? There is finally a proposed solution that matches the poem AND the image, and doesn't require google maps to find two C's that might match up with "all the letters are here to see."
Let's just wait until he gets in there and digs it out w/ the parks department. There are so many easy matches with this solution - I am 100% on board. And permission has been granted to dig it... so there WILL be an answer here.
Good work xieish!
erexere
I still like the Exile theory. It connects with Thucydides and Xenophon both being luminaries, historians of a war. Paul Revere is also involved with a time of war and Longfellow tells that tale.
The usage of the Landlord's Tale as a way of marking the involvement of the Somerset building isn't that complicated. In comparison, remind me what is Xiesh's interpretation for the following section of verse, I have it as:
Feel at home
= find a reference to a dwelling
All the letters
= look for letters
Are here to see
= seeing the letters according to a unique application as opposed to seeing them from many possible angles
Eighteenth day
= paired with next line
Twelfth hour
= (cont.) reference to Longfellow's poem, "The Landlord's Tale"
The dwelling in this case is a building nearby that also has it's name in the Longfellow poem. The letters on it's gate is a forwards S intersecting a mirrored or backwards S. This is highly literal and conspicuous to that section of Charlesgate Park. Seeing either S from the unique angle where the "green tower of lights" overlays either "S" so that it becomes a "$"(money symbol) is pretty damn interesting when you consider the final lines of poem,
In truth, be free.
= think of a truth table where "p" and "q" are often presented, as such they are also an example of mirrored letters, consider this: if forwards $ symbol = cost money, then backwards $ symbol = does NOT cost money.
I think the green lamp pole (which isn't the same as the one currently installed) directly in line with with the backwards S is THE direct path to the casque. The only problem is there is a metal wall intervening, a cyclone fence with a gate entrance approx five steps to the north of that intersecting point which also shares a line with two specific globe lamps.
My theory approach considers a greater use of the verse as a means of identifying the method for defining an exact spot as opposed to an approach like Xiesh's where the majority of the verse acts as a loose arrangement of crumbs on a path to a site where one must guess which detail in the image acts as a defining locator. I don't think LEDERMAN is a good enough determinant for "all the letters", beyond which you have to do more guesswork. Looking for an actual letter and not a play on words is a more concrete approach. I'm not seeing the real evidence that Xiesh has achieved anything more than yet another highly subjective solution.
I'm not being hypocritical. I've been there and done that. Many of my ideas have landed in the crap-pile the moment someone points out the fallacy I've got tangled up in. I'm not ego hurt that you don't like my theory and you favor Xiesh's uncomplicated 100% correct theory. I praise Xiesh for his work. He's the man. I'm not sure his dig will turn out as well as he hopes and we'll continue this discussion after he's done championing his perspective. I really do appreciate his efforts.
WhiteRabbit
I've always liked the general area around the Hatch Shell, so good luck with any digs in this area, though I haven't really been able to follow the latest theories. I was just thinking about the Storrow Memorial Compass though, which has been under discussion; apologies if this is old hat or irrelevant, but...North.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Sounds like 'His direction' may be North.
A green tower of lights
...
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour...
The Midnight Ride...
Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.
He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light
North again.
...Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free.
True north...?
I guess people have eliminated the idea of taking five steps from the compass itself, though I'd be curious to see exactly where the North point is on a map.
WhiteRabbit
I've always liked the general area around the Hatch Shell, so good luck with any digs in this area, though I haven't really been able to follow the latest theories. I was just thinking about the Storrow Memorial
Compass
though, which has been under discussion; apologies if this is old hat or irrelevant, but...North.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Sounds like 'His direction' may be North.
A green tower of lights
...
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour...
The Midnight Ride...
Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.
He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light
North again.
...Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free.
True north...?
I guess people have eliminated the idea of taking five steps from the
compass
itself, though I'd be curious to see exactly where the North point is on a map.
wk
You can see the compass on this Bing bird's eye view.
hxxp://binged.it/1uxTBJt
... and the nearby benches and lampposts.
wk
You can see the
compass
on this Bing bird's eye view.
hxxp://binged.it/1uxTBJt
... and the nearby benches and lampposts.
Xieish
I actually missed the post from a few months ago pointing out that the specific lamp in question may not have been there in 1981. I haven't been able to get a yes or no on that, though it really only changes whether or not the pattern is a match, or whether or not it was just located under a lamp. The verse is still 100% "compliant," and it's possible that the newer lamp's resemble the light from the box solely as a coincidence.
IMO it doesn't impact much. If I found out the lamp itself was not there in 1981, that's a horse of a different color, but it isn't enough to change my opinion of the spot, which I still believe is the correct one.
The compass is integral to the solve, but not in the way that you guys are thinking. There are two "Polaroid" shots taken from the compass. One is the "holy ****" starting location Polaroid (it's the painting flipped upside down, the portal is the compass and the 3 sections of the Gypsy's dress are the Prudential Building, Boston's 'iconic building' hidden in the painting). The second is a smaller Polaroid that appears in the words carved on the compass.
Xieish
I actually missed the post from a few months ago pointing out that the specific lamp in question may not have been there in 1981. I haven't been able to get a yes or no on that, though it really only changes whether or not the pattern is a match, or whether or not it was just located under a lamp. The verse is still 100% "compliant," and it's possible that the newer lamp's resemble the light from the box solely as a coincidence.
IMO it doesn't impact much. If I found out the lamp itself was not there in 1981, that's a horse of a different color, but it isn't enough to change my opinion of the spot, which I still believe is the correct one.
The
compass
is integral to the solve, but not in the way that you guys are thinking. There are two "Polaroid" shots taken from the
compass
. One is the "holy ****" starting location Polaroid (it's the painting flipped upside down, the portal is the
compass
and the 3 sections of the Gypsy's dress are the Prudential Building, Boston's 'iconic building' hidden in the painting). The second is a smaller Polaroid that appears in the words carved on the
compass
.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I actually missed the post from a few months ago pointing out that the specific lamp in question may not have been there in 1981
Unknown:
There are two "Polaroid" shots taken from the
compass
.
Does this refer to my post dated 12/19 in this thread? If so, let me be clear. The spot that you are proposing for the dig is probably the base of an old light fixture, possibly part of the original electrical lighting system in the park. The one that is there now was probably put in in the 70s or 80s, so new only in comparison to the fixture it replaced. If the new lamp predates Preiss, then you are probably fine. However, trenching machines are wonderful tools of chaos, and if the wiring was also replaced when the new lamps were installed (likely), and this happened post 1981 (to be determined), then the treasure ground might have been destroyed in the process. So, while you wait for the ground to thaw, you might just want to find out when the work was done. In the best case scenario, the work was done in the late 70s (consistent with the style of the fixture), which would have had the added benefit of making the hole much easier for Preiss to dig since the ground was recently (again relative term) disturbed.
Any chance you can post these as well, so we can see for ourselves? I can't see how that information would hurt you, and it could be helpful to the rest of us as we try and solve some of these other puzzles.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I actually missed the post from a few months ago pointing out that the specific lamp in question may not have been there in 1981
Unknown:
There are two "Polaroid" shots taken from the compass.
Does this refer to my post dated 12/19 in this thread? If so, let me be clear. The spot that you are proposing for the dig is probably the base of an old light fixture, possibly part of the original electrical lighting system in the park. The one that is there now was probably put in in the 70s or 80s, so new only in comparison to the fixture it replaced. If the new lamp predates Preiss, then you are probably fine. However, trenching machines are wonderful tools of chaos, and if the wiring was also replaced when the new lamps were installed (likely), and this happened post 1981 (to be determined), then the treasure ground might have been destroyed in the process. So, while you wait for the ground to thaw, you might just want to find out when the work was done. In the best case scenario, the work was done in the late 70s (consistent with the style of the fixture), which would have had the added benefit of making the hole much easier for Preiss to dig since the ground was recently (again relative term) disturbed.
Any chance you can post these as well, so we can see for ourselves? I can't see how that information would hurt you, and it could be helpful to the rest of us as we try and solve some of these other puzzles.
Xieish
Absolutely. I generally can only post on the boards at work (shh) where I don't have access to all of the images. I'm done being "coy" with this one, it's been a lack of time (and actually a lack of interest), but as someone's hilariously stupid attempt to dig in this park showed, it's not going to be dug up without permission. There's no sense in holding out.
Let me see what I can dig up, I know I have at least one of these shots on my phone camera.
edit: Also continued credit to four21, who discovered both of the matches we're discussing.
Kalessin
Xieish wrote::
I actually missed the post from a few months ago pointing out that the specific lamp in question may not have been there in 1981.
I think that might be my post from December 19th that was only "made visible" by a moderator very recently...
EDIT: I'm off moderation! Yay! Hello all! I'm a lifelong Boston-area resident, and started visiting the Fens and the Esplanade when I was still a kid in the 1970's, so I have a bit of knowledge of the area over time.
Boston_Bay
Anything going on now that the ground thawed? I've been waiting for Ledderman Park dig results for months!
erexere
Boston_Bay wrote::
Anything going on now that the ground thawed? I've been waiting for Ledderman Park dig results for months!
It's true that there's a lot of anticipation on this one. Huge amounts of confidence have been poured into both the Four21Thrasher and Xie/Xiesh theories. I'm not a fan, but that's besides the point. What they can tell us should they feel inclined to come forward after a thorough proving of their hard thinking whether they recover a casque or not will be of great interest as well. Each have done a heck of a job following a certain logic and scale of comparison to the previously found casques that should help us in how we perceive these next puzzles.
I have a guess as to why Four21 has been unusually quiet, but I have no business sharing on that. As for Xie, if you're following the SA forum, then you'll see he's hoping to do the dig as soon as work/school/life allows the opportunity to coordinate with the City archaeologist' et al.
erexere
Here is some of my latest Boston work.
I just noticed the gate looks like a Venn Diagram,
"In truth, be free," is like a truth table where p and q are visual opposites. In this case an S looks like a money symbol and a backwards $ represents being free...
The gate $$,
The bird is standing on the T of the cyclone fence. There's a globe light to either side.
Merlot Brougham
In the two solved riddles, we know that Preiss relied upon street names as a method to guide the hunter in.
Euclid and Bellflower in the Cleveland solve.
Congress, R is known, in Chicago
Why should we not interpret the following as direct street name references?
Face the water
Your back to the stairs
Feel at home
All the letters
Notice "The Castle" conveniently stage left.
This is my interpretation of the castle:
The castle also has a lot of interesting spheres:
I would hope you find it slightly more compelling than "Let's just draw a map of Texas on whatever the hell we feel like and call it a match"
If you pick out the wheat from the chaff, you can see that Palencar used similar "camouflage" with Chicago. In other words, don't stress about the "windows" in image 11, they're just hair mayonnaise, like the identical windows in Image 5. All of the spires and window dressing meant nothing to what was disguised beneath. The box she is holding is the Boston University Castle and the geography links it with "Back to the water" being the street names. Preiss has proven himself on street names either within the image or the verse. Why would this one be any different?
e: Don't forget Copley Square Fountain
erexere
Merlot, thats a good approach looking for a street identfier. I think 'back' in this case actually does pertain to Back street, because the casque is certainly not far from there. I also think "back to the stairs" has a more articulate application. Could it be a reference to the circular ledging of one of the 2 C's where you start at one side of the stairs, walk the circle and then you find yourself literally "back to the stairs"?
I think the purpose of this is to bring specific attention to that nearest globe.
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
e: Don't forget Copley Square Fountain
Remember the fountain was put in long after the Secret was published.
Merlot Brougham
maltedfalcon wrote::
Remember the fountain was put in long after the Secret was published.
I knew that. My bad
erexere
I doubt the accuracy in these google images. Sure would be great if someday a person could verify the accuracy of these lines as well as count off some paces in that shrubby fence line.
erexere
Didnt Preiss say he had to sneak over a fence once to bury a box?
erexere
I like this illustration by JJP of the Tax Burden. The strap vertically intersecting the $ symbol is exactly like finding a spot where the green light pole intersects the SS-gate and is a huge giveaway clue. What better reference to Boston is there given the events of the Boston Tea Party in protest of the taxation of Britain on the American colonists.
erexere
I shared this before, but I have renewed interest given the discovery that the double S, section sign symbol, or § is also called a "hurricane". Unfortunately, I don't really know when such a nickname for the symbol came into fashion. Maybe someone could help out. *cough* Maltedfalcon?
I like the way the woman's red hair is being lifted as if by a force of wind. I also like the way the line "feel at home" might support the popular Oz reference, "there's no place like home...there's no place like home." Character name Dorothy Gale, meaning strong wind, and the story where she's transported away by a tornado is mildly compelling. Here's the Denslow art from an early book, I think has a similarity with the woman standing in front of the large circle,
So the twist of theme here could be, § or hurricane/double S of Somerset gate, combined with the tornado/Dorothy Gale/Oz and the cyclone fencing along Charlesgate.
Hirudiniforme
Anybody in Boston interested in digging a hole?
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Didnt Preiss say he had to sneak over a fence once to bury a box?
he did and that would be the perfect description of St. Augustine and the grounds of the FOY
Hirudiniforme
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Anybody in Boston interested in digging a hole?
... Still lookin' for a digger.
Merlot Brougham
The SA thread was locked due to gnashing of teeth because everyone expected instant gratification from Xie. I tried to post a bit when it was re-opened after the first time it was closed due to the gnashing of teeth because everyone expected instant gratification from Xie. I Certainly said a thing or two purely out of effort just to keep the thread open but failed. Regardless, I hope the theory is pursued.
erexere
erexere wrote::
I like this illustration by JJP of the Tax Burden. The strap vertically intersecting the $ symbol is exactly like finding a spot where the green light pole intersects the SS-gate and is a huge giveaway clue. What better reference to Boston is there given the events of the Boston Tea Party in protest of the taxation of Britain on the American colonists.
The circular shape of a coin falling from the small tear in the bag of the Tax Burden looks a lot like the tear in the concrete which also has a small circular coin shape.
erexere
This here is interesting,
Frisco
Given that this image is the Italian one, I've been playing around (really, I know very little) with triangulation in this image. Fun facts that may or may not have anything to do with anything:
If you start at the "compass rose" monument in Christopher Columbus (Italian dude) Waterfront Park in Little Italy (which is why I believe the gladiolus flower is next to the part of her hair that resembles the North End Port), 112-degrees (or 22-degrees from due north) makes a line that goes right through the Old North Church.
If you go 111-degrees (the number on the window frame) from the Old North Church using the line from CCWP, it makes a line through the WWII memorial in the BBFs.
The other number on the window frame may be 41 (could be a degree, or a coordinate that would suggest that BP messed up his Boston coordinates, or the casque isn't in Boston at all), but it could also be an upside-down 16.
16 degrees from the WWII memorial goes through the Boston Harbor.
If you use those three points (ONC, WWII memorial, and Boston Harbor), they form a triangle that almost exactly matches the triangle formed by the three bubbles in the image (with the WWII sextant being the "north star" in the window). The bubbles seem more significant to me than mere indications of lamppost shape. And we already have multiple orbs in the image to serve as the "Boston Globe".
I know this sounds like an odd train of thought, but I get a strong presence of Columbus in this image. I think Columbus was the face (CCWP statue) and hand (Columbus, OH statue) model for our "Pandora" (Columbus, incidentally, has been credited by many historians as having opened Pandora's box in the New World). I think the flower and the port point to the compass rose. I think the globe and the space between the globe and the globe stand form a backwards "CC". The CCWP statue of Columbus (and others) show him with the "orb on a stand" that's in the bottom right of the image. To gain favor with native Caribbeans, Columbus would give them gifts like "falcon bells" (used in falconry to hear the bird when it's nearby).
This all makes me think that some sort of rudimentary Celestian Navigation could possibly be involved in the search. That would explain the obvious degree symbols in the image. Even "18th day, 12th hour" could have something to do with it, as navigation coordinates using the earth, moon, and stars require knowing the year, day, time, and location. The presence of the WWII memorial that is shaped like a sextant (celestial navigation tool) reinforces this idea with me.
I just have no idea what it means, if anything. There are probably other interesting points on the vectors, and I only made the connections to the memorial and the ONC because I was looking for them. But maybe anyone else drawing those lines at those angles would recognize the significance of those monuments, as well.
Maybe that's just a really complex way of getting us from the Victory Gardens to the WWII memorial, and the casque is near the memorial. Though I suppose that only leaves "18th day, 12th hour, lit by lamplight" and "in truth, be free" as clues.
Frisco
I just want to post
this image
that gave me fits for a full week before I abandoned my Statler Park idea. I used the coordinates in Image 11 to make a triangle, and the triangle matched up with CCWP, the Old North Church, and Statler Park. The triangle between these three points also closely matched the positioning of the three bubbles in the image, with Statler Park being in the position of the star/Venus in Image 11.
Then I go look at the park (which is across the street from the castle on the box) and it turns out to be in the shape of a star within a circle, have a fountain with
a statue
that could vaguely resemble the fairy with the jewel, and a fountain below the statue that, on its underside, had all the symbols of the Zodiac (all the astrological letters?).
It was a painful theory to abandon. :p
Hirudiniforme
Frisco wrote::
I just want to post
this image
that gave me fits for a full week before I abandoned my Statler Park idea. I used the coordinates in Image 11 to make a triangle, and the triangle matched up with CCWP, the Old North Church, and Statler Park. The triangle between these three points also closely matched the positioning of the three bubbles in the image, with Statler Park being in the position of the star/Venus in Image 11.
Then I go look at the park (which is across the street from the castle on the box) and it turns out to be in the shape of a star within a circle, have a fountain with
a statue
that could vaguely resemble the fairy with the jewel, and a fountain below the statue that, on its underside, had all the symbols of the Zodiac (all the astrological letters?).
It was a painful theory to abandon. :p
I know the feeling. It's better in the long run, though.
Frisco
Well, I'm going to be in Boston next weekend, and I'll probably still poke around there a bit. Because until I figure out why those damn bubbles, all the coordinates, and all the Columbus imagery are in the image (or when a casque is unearthed), I find it hard to believe any of the current theories very deeply.
Hirudiniforme
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I know the feeling. It's better in the long run, though.
erexere
I've been thinking that the shape of a leg and home plate on the arm cuff is symbolic for "home run". I think that's a play on the idea that America is in charge of itself or "home run" as a result of the rebellious Tea Party and followed by the American Revolution.
erexere
TJWhite shared this pic of the
Somerset gate
. Things I hadn't noticed before while looking at Google Street View, 1) the leafy shape of the end of the S letters, 2) the large square windows on the building in the background. Also, it helps that the gate and the image both present a backward's S.
Here's a visual
comparision
.
Frisco
Anyone have any thoughts on the Columbus imagery I posted last page, compass rose at the CCWP, and the glut of unidentified numbers in Image 11, some of which appear to be degrees? And any theories about the bubbles (including Venus) that have them as more than generic street lamp imagery?
Or am I that far off base speculating?
erexere
Frisco wrote::
Or am I that far off base speculating?
Sometimes you have to appreciate an idea. Let it run it's course and at some point you'll know why it does or doesn't work.
The Columbus stuff leaves a strong impression. I really like your work on it.
Frisco
erexere wrote::
Man, that's what I was afraid of.
erexere
I like your work, because you raise good points. Along with the spheres it's a legitimate facial similarity. How that furthers the search, I'm not sure. I especially like that you've found an Italian explorer to go with the Italian Fair Folk puzzle.
Don't worry about me. I'm not interested in insulting your methods.
Frisco
I didn't mean to offend--just making a light joke. It seems like your methods are more about what BP was *thinking* when he said what he said or had painted, rather than the finished product, and it can be a lot of fun (and possibly one day fruitful--who knows?) to travel into that rabbit hole, but since you're the only one really active on the site, it's all anyone sees in a lot of these threads for pages and pages, so it can be a little discouraging to new folk not to see concrete progress. The lack of forum traffic is understandable, of course. I'm sure most people burn out after going at this furiously only to hit dead ends. So in that respect, it's nice to see that you're still plugging away at it!
Merlot Brougham
One of Xie's from the SA thread that never gained much traction but I tended to like:
erexere
Np, I got the joke. You're right, it would be discouraging to wade through my pages and pages of posts. They're crap. If I was any good at writing, it wouldn't be so bad reading my drivel. One thing is for certain, lots of other people here are guilty of writing total crap too...more than 19k of them. My 12% contribution to the quagmire is a show of my dedication. I think I've succeeded in chipping away at it rather than spinning my wheels the entire time. Sure, I have a lot of theories, and I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to test or challenge them. Here's a breakdown of my main ideas,
1. Read the Litany of the Jewels. Identify the key words for each Fair Folk of origin.
Peridot of old Italy: Antique, and olivine, and rich.
The word Peridot may be an anagram for RIDE POT, since it could be a quick hint to Paul Revere, known for his midnight RIDE, and I happen to own a set of antique copper Revere cookware. It's not so simple though. I think there's something incredibly enigmatic about the LotJ hints. I think the reason for the Thucidides and Xenophon is largely about the topic of exile. The line about "feeling at home" may contribute to the subject of homelessness. It's all about perspective. If you live on the streets, then you're forced into "feeling at home" wherever you go. Perhaps this comes around to the copper pot, since homeless people are often pan handling. This could also lend itself to searching for the casque on a narrow piece of land (also a panhandle).
2. Get started with the first line. It presents a direct link to the casque path. It also contains a secondary meaning, because that's what Fair Folk do best.
If Thucydides is
Could be (probably is) the Boston Library facade. Secondary meaning: if + is = if isle (is. can be an abbr form of isle or island). This is a hint for a prison of exile called the Also, ask the question: what is Thucydides? I bought a book on Thucydides. (I'm sure I'm not the only one around here who's read a bunch of history about the guy).
3. Work with the body of clues and play with verse and image to assemble a path. It's a minefield of wordplays, idioms, metaphors, and literal hints.
Notice the home plate and leg leaving it on the arm cuff. It's consistent with how homeplate is faced in Fenway Park. Towards the fairy's green jewel is roughly the direction we'd go on a map.
4. Determine the secret of the final line of verse. It's just subtle.
In truth, be free.
I thought it had to do with a venn diagram or truth table combined with a reverse money symbol. I dunno. Now I'm thinking it has to do with a fence.
The trick to bootstrapping your way through these puzzles is ultimately about getting your feet on the ground near the site.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
If I was any good at writing, it wouldn't be so bad reading my drivel
You write fine E, you just need an editor. To wit, I've taken the liberty of condensing your previous post down to its essential core. It looks like this:
Here's a breakdown of my main ideas. Get started with the first line (of the verse). Work with the body of clues and play with verse and image to assemble a path. The trick to bootstrapping your way through these puzzles is ultimately about getting your feet on the ground near the site.
Most, if not all of the rest, with all due respect, is drivel. It might be fun to play around with, but I am highly suspect that it will lead anyone any closer to a casque.
erexere
There is evidence that the green street light tower is a replacement from the old one that stood just a few feet away in the middle of the brick pave. I believe its a critical part of the puzzle, fortunately we have the old 2009 Google street view to prove that displacement.
I have a dramatically improved theory on Boston since 2012. The last line "in truth, be free" is subtle as heck. It is telling us to look for a very specific "T" (T for truth) and find the backwards S symbol on the Somerset building's iron gate where the vertical green light tower intersects it like a dollar sign "$". The idea is that a reverse $ means "free". Someone needs to dig in that spot between two globe light posts on the inside of the low fence line. Its just five steps in from the small fence gate that faces the water.
tanban
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/21mulxf/9
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/2q3q1oj/9
I had my digger use survey flags which are essentially 2 foot needles to poke into the ground in and around the entire lot behind the pump building. We chose to dig this specific spot in the 2C area because of these verses "your back to the stairs" and "face the water" and many image references from the picture. We poked these into our hole after we dug reaching around 4 feet in depth. We also inserted our survey flags sideways into the hole to check the surrounding 2 foot radius around our hole. We considered the grey boxes in the image to be an direct reference (like the columns from image 4) to the grey electrical boxes in the very same lot we dug. We are still feel confident the casque is in the area, happy hunting.
erexere
Cool. If anyone in Boston wants to earn something extra checking a spot nearby, let me know. I definately want someone who's willing to be on site for the GPR work needed to first verify the spot for accuracy. I'll pay for the GPR and throw in an 18 year single malt for good measure.
tanban
GPR could easily run you over 1,000 dollars per day for one rented machine. If it was cheaper I would have gone that route too. E, if you think you've got a spot, I would recommend making a craigslist post explaining the dig and how much you're willing to pay to get it excavated. I received about 25 inquiries from people who wanted to dig for me for only $30. Any time in the future that I have a specific location theory, I'll be finding someone off of craigslist to do my digging. Many people from CL aren't concerned with the legalities of digging or the risk that come with it, and you can FaceTime them like I do to obverse the whole process in detail and assure you're getting what you want for your money. I did this from my couch in Cali for $30. Hope this inspires someone else to get their hole dug
Kalessin
I see a few problems with the "pay some random guy on Craigslist to dig holes" method.
When the DCR (Dept of Conservation and Recreation) starts having people arrested for digging random holes in public property, legal permission won't be granted for legit digs anymore, and the MA State Police (who have jurisdiction) will be on the lookout for random people digging random holes.
I'm going to go ahead and guess that you'll run out of interest, and possibly out of money you want to spend on hole digging, before the casque is found. Read the tale of digging in Chicago -- even with Preiss' personal guidance, it wasn't easy to find the casque in its correct spot. In Cleveland, they had to dig out a good part of the oversized shrubbery planter, and the lucite box and casque inside were somewhat damaged.
And really, if your remote-hired random digger DOES find the casque, what's to stop them from picking it up, turning off their phone, boarding an MBTA train, and vanishing with the obvious prize?
erexere
I'm not interested in paying a random person to dig. I'm looking for someone local to advocate my theory and supervise the legitimate investigation of a site, make a call to an expert in handling the GPR and get their rate quote. I want someone to give me a real number to work with. I sure I have enough to cover someones expenses, but that may change...soon. i'm in talks with someone who would be a competent advocate but they also require travel and lodging expenses.
I'm not concerned with digging yet, first and foremost I just want some actual GPR data to support a legitimate dig attempt.
tanban
I respectfully disagree. You likely won't get permission from a public official for a legal dig in a public area within Boston City limits. I've heard many stories of people trying, but have not been successful. I'm not advising people to go tear up well manicured places and parks and draw police attention which would prevent other's access in the future. I'm just trying to show that you have more resources than you might think if you honestly believe you know where the casque is. If you think you know one specific hole to dig, why jump through a year of hoops only to get your request shut down time and again. Eventually, you'll want to know if its there or not. As for your final critique, I suggest offering your digger an extra finders reward, they won't hang up the call. Happy hunting
WhiteRabbit
The power of Google maps nowadays is amazing, with the interior paths of parks like Boston Common now mapped, and 3D tilting aerial views. I've just been swooping round Boston, and it actually gave me some hope that we might still be able to make some progress on this puzzle.
Boston interests me since we know the verse and image with a high degree of certainty, but we still don't know which park we're looking at. I think this could be one of the more profitable puzzles to investigate.
tjgrey
tanban wrote::
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/21mulxf/9
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/2q3q1oj/9
I had my digger use survey flags which are essentially 2 foot needles to poke into the ground in and around the entire lot behind the pump building. We chose to dig this specific spot in the 2C area because of these verses "your back to the stairs" and "face the water" and many image references from the picture. We poked these into our hole after we dug reaching around 4 feet in depth. We also inserted our survey flags sideways into the hole to check the surrounding 2 foot radius around our hole. We considered the grey boxes in the image to be an direct reference (like the columns from image 4) to the grey electrical boxes in the very same lot we dug. We are still feel confident the casque is in the area, happy hunting.
Nice! Good work!
tjgrey
erexere wrote::
...make a call to an expert in handling the GPR and get their rate quote. I want someone to give me a real number to work with...
I'm not concerned with digging yet, first and foremost I just want some actual GPR data to support a legitimate dig attempt.
Eric-
This isn't actual GPR data, but from talking with three companies (in the Charleston area for comparison), and here is what I can tell you and what I asked them:
Price is: $600-1800 (for 4 hours to an entire day, but no more than)
Permission. Take that for what you will. I asked what they knew about permission and if they needed anything signed/cooperating with the city to perform the work. Their responses:
-one said they didn't care, as it wasn't their job, since their job was to come in and
scan, but didn't see a problem if there was no permit
-another said that I would need a permit to scan a city park
-the last one said that they didn't know if a permit was needed, as it was usually
handled by the contractors that hire them
Confidence. I asked them about their confidence level as to if they thought they could find an ~8" hollow ceramic box...
-one said "yes"
-one said "probably"
-one said "not likely"
Anyway, just some info...mileage may vary city to city...
tjgrey
tanban wrote::
I respectfully disagree. You likely won't get permission from a public official for a legal dig in a public area within Boston City limits. I've heard many stories of people trying, but have not been successful. I'm not advising people to go tear up well manicured places and parks and draw police attention which would prevent other's access in the future. I'm just trying to show that you have more resources than you might think if you honestly believe you know where the casque is. If you think you know one specific hole to dig, why jump through a year of hoops only to get your request shut down time and again. Eventually, you'll want to know if its there or not. As for your final critique, I suggest offering your digger an extra finders reward, they won't hang up the call. Happy hunting
No, I don't think you will either. Not in most cities. Some seem cooperative, but it's getting harder and harder to find someone willing to listen and consider it. NOLA seemed friendly to the idea, and apparently SF, if you had a relationship built with them.
At some point, someone has to dig.
WhiteRabbit
tjgrey wrote::
Nice! Good work!
+1
It's rare these days for someone to dig a hole and post a pic, let alone in a plausible location - and that was one of my favourites. Nice one.
erexere
TJ, thanks for that info. Once I have a rep in Boston, I would plan to hire a GPR service.
Alternatively, I'm thinking of purchasing a GPR. Once I'm done with it, I can loan it out to searchers in other cities.
As for which GPR to buy, any suggestions?
WhiteRabbit
I still like the 2C a lot, with its proximity to "all the letters" of the Victory Gardens.
BP could easily have snapped the overhead pic from the bridge overlooking it.
It seems people have dug around the central "nook" and behind the steps of the pump house. I guess a couple of other places I'd be interested in looking would be here:
The corner area appeals because it corresponds with facing the water, your back to stairs, lit by lamplight, and aligns with the flower in the image.
A spot beside the wall alongside the other lamp could also work with the "lit by lamplight" reference.
It would be nice to get some photos/video of this area showing the angles that can't be accessed on Google; behind the pump house, and by the river beyond the 2C.
tjgrey
erexere wrote::
TJ, thanks for that info. Once I have a rep in Boston, I would plan to hire a GPR service.
Alternatively, I'm thinking of purchasing a GPR. Once I'm done with it, I can loan it out to searchers in other cities.
As for which GPR to buy, any suggestions?
Eric-that would be awesome. This is something I think that (if the data was interpreted correctly, and that we got lucky in a couple of locations with the soil) could really help in producing a casque.
Which to buy? I have no idea...I'd have to do some research, but I would check CL/eBay too, depending on your budget.
Funny, I thought starting a crowdfunding for something like a GPR would be fun...we just wouldn't' have a way to control who has it/how long/care of it...
tjgrey
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I still like the 2C a lot, with its proximity to "all the letters" of the Victory Gardens.
It seems people have dug around the central "nook" and behind the steps of the pump house. I guess a couple of other places I'd be interested in looking would be here:
The corner area appeals because it corresponds with facing the water, your back to stairs, lit by lamplight, and aligns with the flower in the image.
A spot beside the wall alongside the other lamp could also work with the "lit by lamplight" reference.
It would be nice to get some photos/video of this area showing the angles that can't be accessed on Google; behind the pump house, and by the river beyond the 2C.
That left "x" in your last picture is solid IMO. That whole plot from the stairs to the lamp post would be fair game if I was digging it.
And digging trenches work well too, depending on what clues you are digging to. (e.g. if you are digging in front of something narrow, but don't know how close/far to dig to that object)
"Lit by lamplight" does seem to imply that he hid them (or this one at least) at night. Or the casque is buried in the light (not shady area) of the lamp. Any photos of this spot at night?
WhiteRabbit
tjgrey wrote::
"Lit by lamplight" does seem to imply that he hid them (or this one at least) at night. Or the casque is buried in the light (not shady area) of the lamp. Any photos of this spot at night?
Interesting point. It had occurred to me that the dazzle on the sphere in the above pic could indicate the throw of light on the area.
tanban
I like the idea that he buried it at night under lamplight too. I was thinking about having the same people go back and check out some of the areas directly around the 2 circles and checking some of these locations as well. Does anyone have specific spots they'd like checked?
tjgrey
tanban wrote::
I like the idea that he buried it at night under lamplight too. I was thinking about having the same people go back and check out some of the areas directly around the 2 circles and checking some of these locations as well. Does anyone have specific spots they'd like checked?
I think WR's left "x" on the image above is a good candidate. I'd dig from the stairs to the lamp post (that entire square).
I don't think I paid much a attention to that set of stairs before...just the ones on the opposite side of the building, and the ones that line up between the "C"s.
decibalnyc
The Somerset is across the street... The S from the image...
"In 1976, the Savings Banks Trust Company of New York City foreclosed on its mortgage to Somerset Building Company. It was the only bidder at the foreclosure auction and took possession of 390-400 Commonwealth.
The properties subsequently changed hands, including going through foreclosure again, and in January of 1982 were acquired by the 400 Commonwealth Avenue Apartments LP.
In August of 1981, the 400 Commonwealth Avenue Apartments LP filed for (and subsequently received) permission to remodel the apartments on the north side of the building, noting that this was Phase I of its remodeling. The legal occupancy of the building remained “187 apartments, coffee shop, flower shop, keyboard lounge, rib room restaurant, music halls I and II, and restaurant.” -
https://backbayhouses.org/400-416-commonwealth/
He could have easily buried it there with a giant semi vacant building which was going thru foreclosure for cover...plus your rail switcher is right there (All the letters) so just dress up like a city worker. It's a good spot, I pointed it out 6 years ago and everyone said it had been dug up. I've seen about 7 different pictures of holes all around there since then. Like all of these cities there are several explanations that fit, but having the 2 image matches in one place makes it worth checking out some more I would think. It's going to be a little harder with the Somerset being Condo's now...at least they left the dual S's for you on the gate :-)
strike13
I am really interested in Long Wharf/North End as being the place where it is. I have been kicking the idea of the old elevated 93, in the middle, as the green tower of lights as opposed to fenway
strike13
JoshCornell wrote::
taking my first look at boston...ive passed this one up cause there seems to be a solve for it. but ill see if I can fill in any missing gaps. will corroborate or negate current location if I'm able.
It is not solved, no one has found it, i know all of boston very well so if you are not in boston feel free to bounce ideas off me
strike13
tanban wrote::
I'm still very serious about finding this casque. Even after my dig attempt at the 2C area was unsuccessful, I couldn't help feel like I should keep poking around. Lately I've been very busy, and have been thinking about alternative solutions that would expedite this process. I know some people also believe that the 2C area may house the casque. I have a proposition that could put our theories to rest once and for all. If other people on this site and others would be interested, I could start a gofundme or kickstarter for a GPR rental for one day to search the entire lot. I would be willing to contribute 25-30% of the funds. Is this something others would potentially be interested in?
i'm in boston thinking about checking this site out, may even try this weekend, if the ground isnt too frozen. i am wondering your thoughts though on a completely different area of boston for this....long wharf/n end waterfront?
strike13
MrSeabass wrote::
Not a bad idea, but practically any park in that area was disturbed/destroyed by the Big Dig for several years. Keep that in mind.
Not entirely....I have lived there for over 20 yrs and have seen the whole change. Big dig is what led me to think of the green tower of lights as the old elevated 93 running through the city, in the middle, as the poem says
strike13
MrSeabass wrote::
Not a bad idea, but practically any park in that area was disturbed/destroyed by the Big Dig for several years. Keep that in mind.
Are you boston based? What are you thoughts on the whereabouts?
strike13
[quote="MrSeabass"]Not Boston based but just knew of the Big Dig.
My idea? Closest point I can get to is Boston University Castle, but nothing else falls into place
What are your thoughts on this site?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3483296 ... a=!3m1!1e3
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
This seems to be the consensus. I would secure permission to dig. Some other people have been stopped by the local and State police.
I'll ask again. in the ring around the lady's head (who looks like Dolly Parton BTW) just above and to the left in the sidewalk, doesn't that look like a moonscape? Crater and crack.
strike13
MrSeabass wrote::
I like it too, but like the castle, there's no point of reference once "I" am there. In either case I fully support that the starting point is the Boston Public Library
I wonder why it says feel at home
the letters referred to are most likely not in that garden, seems like a much newer thing to me...
also wonder also what in truth be free means, it certainly isn't unimportant.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
This seems to be the consensus. I would secure permission to dig. Some other people have been stopped by the local and State police.
I'll ask again. in the ring around the lady's head (who looks like Dolly Parton BTW) just above and to the left in the sidewalk, doesn't that look like a moonscape? Crater and crack.
Haha Dolly Parton! Yes, it does look like a crater and crack...
strike13
MrSeabass wrote::
I like it too, but like the castle, there's no point of reference once "I" am there. In either case I fully support that the starting point is the Boston Public Library
What about this idea Seabass...the image that compares the old utility box in that area to the table by the bird in the painting. kind of looks like the bird is digging and that area is right under a lamp light...one of those sphere ones. under a lamplight, the first one, on the other side of the fence, by the would be utility box, right before you even get to the 2 cs. i dont think i have heard of anyone digging there.
strike13
JoshCornell wrote::
ive solved up to the feel at home clue...
but all I feel is stuck XD
I'm at the location though...just need to find the spot...
what do you believe feel at home means
drunknerds
Google and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on this project:
gManTexas
Hey everyone, I'm taking a look at Image 11 which presumably is Boston. The supposed immigration reference is Italy. This image screams space to me. Planets, the moon, etc. Let think about what contributions Boston has made to the space program, probably the Apollo missions. Obviously MIT comes to mind, but it may be more subtle.
When I look at the circle above Dolly Parton's (erh..Columbus' head) I see a crater and mountain range. Some people have suggested this was a crack in the sidewalk next to the 2 circle structure in the Charlegate area. I'm not buying that. I believe this to be the Archimedes Crater and Montes Apennine mountain range on the moon.
hxxp://apollo.sese.asu.edu/LIW/20080219.html
I believe the Montes Apenine is named after the terrestrial range in, you guessed it...Italy.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Apennine-Range
This range is made up of marine rocks (at least in places). This brings us back to Archimedes and the crater. There is a thing formerly known in the 1890s as Archimedes Limestone, so named because it contains fossils of Archimedes, a marine type shell. Not sure if this part matters. But Limestone in general was typically used in construction of older buildings.
https://arkansasgeological.wordpress.co ... rchimedes/
What I'm getting at, is that there may be some clues here.
Limestone, Archimedes, Italy, Space Program, features in the city that look like the mountain range, etc.
Am I knocking anything loose for you searchers?
BINGO
I am very new to this forum, but I have been hunting in Boston for quite some time.
I finally broke down and joined in an attempt to learn more about things that I have been missing and to get an idea of if my potential solutions have been discussed here in the past. I am still perusing the vast volumes of posts, so this may have been discussed and eliminated in the past.
Something that I initially thought that might be relevant sort of parallels gMan’s last post. From research that I did about X and T. I always put X at the Boston Public Library because he was a historian and a writer. I always categorized T as more of a Scientist than a writer.
This leads to X at BPL and T at the Boston Museum of Science. Which are located roughly North-South of each other. The MOS also has a large dome and a planetarium on the roof. Clearly visible from most of the Charles river area.
I’m not sure if his helps anyone refine a solution, but hopefully it is accepted as useful.
gManTexas
Who on here is in Boston or the surrounding area that can get boots on the ground?
I'm having a hard time believing that the casque is by the 2 circles and old pump house as proposed by many and detailed on the wiki site.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86303044/Image%2011
Sorry if is a faux pas to link the wiki site here.
If we look at probable paths to take from the presumed start point of Boston Public Library, this only works if you stroll down Commonwealth Avenue Mall, which I could see BP doing. This allows you to pass by the 2 circle structure, the Citgo sign and Fenway Park
on the way to
main part of Back Bay Fens. The 2 circle structure is essentially cut off from the rest of the Fens due to the horrible overpass they built in the 1950s.
https://charlesgatealliance.org/history/
I think the casque is near Mothers Rest. I believe that there used to be stairs all throughout the park, but maybe have since been replaced with ramps for handicap access.
Have a look through this old master plan document:
https://archive.org/details/emeraldnecklacep00walm
I will note that on Page 80, there is a photo of an area by Charlesgate that had stairs and a bunch of the lights. This are may be worth investigating.
As for the Verses in V3, there really isn't anything that specifically says, the treasure is here.
I'm thinking the solution is: back to the stairs (that used to be there), facing the water in Mothers Rest, 18 something, 12 something, near a lightpost, free the treasure.
Going back to Image 11, it is possible that all of the globes and bubbles indicate perspective . Maybe from the treasure site, you can see five lights.
WhiteRabbit
gManTexas wrote::
If we look at probable paths to take from the presumed start point of Boston Public Library
Unknown:
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Although it's usually assumed that the verse describes a trail from A to B, there's not much evidence that this is the case. At the Fountain of Youth, for example, the verse references a number of specific things, various signs around the grounds, but I've never seen anyone plot a logical course on a map. Even in Chicago, the lines don't take you from one place to the next in logical order. Some seem more orderly, like Milwaukee, but in general, I don't believe in "start points" for each verse. There's usually just a medley of references to things in the general vicinity.
*edit*
OK, so that does sound like a direction from the BPL, I admit. (Though it possibly might not be. It's unfathomable.)
BINGO
I am a land surveyor in Boston. I work there every day and I am more familiar with the layout of the city than I care to be. (Occupational hazard).
I can say this for sure, the ground is currently frozen. It’s not impossible to dig, but you want to make sure you have a pretty well defined area to invest your efforts in. Probes will not work, I have tried multiple places recently.
If anyone can work out a well defined spot to dig, point the way. I am willing to beat through the frost if it yields a casque.
gManTexas
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Although it's usually assumed that the verse describes a trail from A to B, there's not much evidence that this is the case. At the Fountain of Youth, for example, the verse references a number of specific things, various signs around the grounds, but I've never seen anyone plot a logical course on a map. Even in Chicago, the lines don't take you from one place to the next in logical order. So, in general, I don't believe in "start points". There's usually just a medley of references to things in the general vicinity.
The casque could be anywhere, but I haven't seen many clues for Mother's Rest. It originated with a supposed connection to "Feel at home", but I'm not convinced.
That doesn't make sense to me. The hunt was designed as a walking adventure. Yes, there may be elements in the image and verses that confirm location that are not on the specific path, but I think there is a path. The verse lines seem to be jumbled to throw people off a bit. Some verses have the casque location in the beginning, some in the middle, etc.
Another reason I don't think it's in the 2 circle area is that it has never been a very desirable location. Lots of homeless people, trash, etc. Although the Fens was a bit run down in the late 1970s, I believe the historical value is there and they were doing revitalization around that time. I think the Charlesgate area got left out of the mix.
Feel at home could just reference the WWII "Home Front" effort, e.g. Victory Gardens. Mother's Rest is an ideal place to bury something.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Who on here is in Boston or the surrounding area that can get boots on the ground?
I'm having a hard time believing that the casque is by the 2 circles and old pump house as proposed by many and detailed on the wiki site.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86303044/Image%2011
Sorry if is a faux pas to link the wiki site here.
If we look at probable paths to take from the presumed start point of Boston Public Library, this only works if you stroll down Commonwealth Avenue Mall, which I could see BP doing. This allows you to pass by the 2 circle structure, the Citgo sign and Fenway Park
on the way to
main part of Back Bay Fens. The 2 circle structure is essentially cut off from the rest of the Fens due to the horrible overpass they built in the 1950s.
https://charlesgatealliance.org/history/
I think the casque is near Mothers Rest. I believe that there used to be stairs all throughout the park, but maybe have since been replaced with ramps for handicap access.
Have a look through this old master plan document:
https://archive.org/details/emeraldnecklacep00walm
I will note that on Page 80, there is a photo of an area by Charlesgate that had stairs and a bunch of the lights. This are may be worth investigating.
As for the Verses in V3, there really isn't anything that specifically says, the treasure is here.
I'm thinking the solution is: back to the stairs (that used to be there), facing the water in Mothers Rest, 18 something, 12 something, near a lightpost, free the treasure.
Going back to Image 11, it is possible that all of the globes and bubbles indicate perspective . Maybe from the treasure site, you can see five lights.
I am, I was there at the v gardens and mothers rest last weekend. I live here. I agree with you as well. Nothing to do with the 2 Cs, which is actually a C and a G for Charlesgate.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I am a land surveyor in Boston. I work there every day and I am more familiar with the layout of the city than I care to be. (Occupational hazard).
I can say this for sure, the ground is currently frozen. It’s not impossible to dig, but you want to make sure you have a pretty well defined area to invest your efforts in. Probes will not work, I have tried multiple places recently.
If anyone can work out a well defined spot to dig, point the way. I am willing to beat through the frost if it yields a casque.
It may have to wait until the thaw. Wouldn't hurt to go scope out some possible locations, and if you are a surveyor, you should have access to old prints and topo maps. Find where the missing stairs were and I think you will find the casque location.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
That doesn't make sense to me. The hunt was designed as a walking adventure. Yes, there may be elements in the image and verses that confirm location that are not on the specific path, but I think there is a path. The verse lines seem to be jumbled to throw people off a bit. Some verses have the casque location in the beginning, some in the middle, etc.
Another reason I don't think it's in the 2 circle area is that it has never been a very desirable location. Lots of homeless people, trash, etc. Although the Fens was a bit run down in the late 1970s, I believe the historical value is there and they were doing revitalization around that time. I think the Charlesgate area got left out of the mix.
Feel at home could just reference the WWII "Home Front" effort, e.g. Victory Gardens. Mother's Rest is an ideal place to bury something.
Also feel at home could be connected to one of the purposes of the victory gardens
WhiteRabbit
It's great to have people on the ground in Boston. If someone has time, I'm still interested in the area around the Hatch Shell as a possible site. Here's a reminder of a few of the old ideas.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Starting at Thucydides on the BPL and taking five steps in the direction of Xenophon, you end up at Shaw.
The Hatch Shell was designed by Richard Shaw.
(There's also a
memorial
to a different Shaw at Boston Common.)
Possible image matches...?
Eighteenth Day
Twelfth Hour
Beside the Hatch Shell there's a
howitzer
for performances of the 1812 Overture.
With metal walls
Arthur Fiedler footbridge...?
There's water and stairs...all very speculative, but if anyone felt like taking a wander round there and looking at the statues it would be interesting if anything came to mind.
gManTexas
Has anyone figured out what that transparent piece of glass to the right of the bottom globe in the image is?
WhiteRabbit
gManTexas wrote::
Has anyone figured out what that transparent piece of glass to the right of the bottom globe in the image is?
I think those two square shapes with the ball between them, and the general image, have been associated with the statue of Science at the BPL...but I don't remember people commenting on the transparency.
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
It's great to have people on the ground in Boston. If someone has time, I'm still interested in the area around the Hatch Shell as a possible site. Here's a reminder of a few of the old ideas.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Starting at Thucydides on the BPL and taking five steps in the direction of Xenophon, you end up at Shaw.
The Hatch Shell was designed by Richard Shaw.
(There's also a
memorial
to a different Shaw at Boston Common.)
Possible image matches...?
Eighteenth Day
Twelfth Hour
Beside the Hatch Shell there's a
howitzer
for performances of the 1812 Overture.
With metal walls
Arthur Fiedler footbridge...?
There's water and stairs...all very speculative, but if anyone felt like taking a wander round there and looking at the statues it would be interesting if anything came to mind.
I spent a couple hours walking the entire esplanade just the other day. Nothing at the hatch shell really stood out to me. I looked at every statue, read every plaque and analyzed every set of stairs that I could find.
All of the granite stairs lead to the waters edge and onto T shaped docks. There are multiple sets of stairs and docks.
One thing that did seem to make a little sense was at the Storrow
compass
rose. The only set of stairs that you can put to your back and look at the water is at the
compass
rose. You aren’t actually looking at water, but the inscription of “Watertown” is the first thing you look at when facing the
compass
rose. There are plenty of trees and benches in that area, but again, nothing that points to an obvious dig spot.
If there is anything specific in the area that you would like checked out, let me know, I will take pictures and research whatever is needed.
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
It's great to have people on the ground in Boston. If someone has time, I'm still interested in the area around the Hatch Shell as a possible site. Here's a reminder of a few of the old ideas.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Starting at Thucydides on the BPL and taking five steps in the direction of Xenophon, you end up at Shaw.
The Hatch Shell was designed by Richard Shaw.
(There's also a
memorial
to a different Shaw at Boston Common.)
Possible image matches...?
Eighteenth Day
Twelfth Hour
Beside the Hatch Shell there's a
howitzer
for performances of the 1812 Overture.
With metal walls
Arthur Fiedler footbridge...?
There's water and stairs...all very speculative, but if anyone felt like taking a wander round there and looking at the statues it would be interesting if anything came to mind.
I spent a couple hours walking the entire esplanade just the other day. Nothing at the hatch shell really stood out to me. I looked at every statue, read every plaque and analyzed every set of stairs that I could find.
All of the granite stairs lead to the waters edge and onto T shaped docks. There are multiple sets of stairs and docks.
One thing that did seem to make a little sense was at the Storrow compass rose. The only set of stairs that you can put to your back and look at the water is at the compass rose. You aren’t actually looking at water, but the inscription of “Watertown” is the first thing you look at when facing the compass rose. There are plenty of trees and benches in that area, but again, nothing that points to an obvious dig spot.
If there is anything specific in the area that you would like checked out, let me know, I will take pictures and research whatever is needed.
WhiteRabbit
BINGO wrote::
I spent a couple hours walking the entire esplanade just the other day. Nothing at the hatch shell really stood out to me. I looked at every statue, read every plaque and analyzed every set of stairs that I could find.
OK! Thanks Bingo...
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
OK! Thanks Bingo...
If this is considered a hot area, we might need to move quicker than expected. The Hatch Shell is currently undergoing a face lift. Not sure if there are plans to change the grounds, but the clam shell itself is completely engulfed in staging and construction barriers for the time being.
gManTexas
Could it be these stairs, which I believe are still present?
hxxp://olmsted.nonprofitsoapbox.com/sto ... _image.jpg
Or these?
https://foursquare.com/v/mothers-rest-p ... a9fba4a70c
I'm thinking maybe in the stand of trees behind the John Boyle O'Reilly statue. Down the hill at the base of the stairs. Take 18 steps forward and 12 steps to the left.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
If this is considered a hot area, we might need to move quicker than expected. The Hatch Shell is currently undergoing a face lift. Not sure if there are plans to change the grounds, but the clam shell itself is completely engulfed in staging and construction barriers for the time being.
I'm not feeling it. Too many people around, too little cover for someone to bury or dig. Plus, we have to consider the context of the book. Conservation and preservation. Celebrating nature versus strictly man. My chips are on Back Bay Fens.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
I'm not feeling it. Too many people around, too little cover for someone to bury or dig. Plus, we have to consider the context of the book. Conservation and preservation. Celebrating nature versus strictly man. My chips are on Back Bay Fens.
I don’t know what to think anymore. This has been a multiple year journey of dead ends for me. The only thing I have to show for my efforts is a piece of unrelated porcelain, a tiny piece of skinny plexiglass and a red ball point pen that I dug out of the same hole. All of which have been confirmed as coincidence and unrelated to the hunt.
I have been beaten into submission and at the point where I have to take advice from others to bring this to a conclusion. I am all ears, keep the suggestions coming and I will follow through to the best of my ability. Even if I have to revisit areas that I considered a dead end.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I don’t know what to think anymore. This has been a multiple year journey of dead ends for me. The only thing I have to show for my efforts is a piece of unrelated porcelain, a tiny piece of skinny plexiglass and a red ball point pen that I dug out of the same hole. All of which have been confirmed as coincidence and unrelated to the hunt.
I have been beaten into submission and at the point where I have to take advice from others to bring this to a conclusion. I am all ears, keep the suggestions coming and I will follow through to the best of my ability. Even if I have to revisit areas that I considered a dead end.
I hear you, it can get frustrating, and it's quite possible that the casque is gone. I have not seen many people talk about digging around in Mothers Rest. It's just an unassuming playground, right? Well, the other areas where all the clues are in the park can either not be dug (gardens, monuments, in the open) or are in a place where people dig all the time (V Gardens). Again, my bet is near the bridge in Mothers Rest in those trees.
gManTexas
Actually, I think the lid of the box is Beacon Street. The Paul Revere clue indicates that we should be looking for a beacon. The hinge of the top is at Kenmore Sq. If the lid goes to Massachusetts Ave, the relative "box" would enclose Fenway and the Back Bay Fens. The image on the box appears to be Boston University, which has an observatory, hence the space theme in the image that I mentioned a few posts back. The two blue areas between Dolly Parton's waist and the sash hanging down form the shape of the muddy river split by the off ramp at Charlesgate when viewed on the map.
It's all coming together.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Actually, I think the lid of the box is Beacon Street. The Paul Revere clue indicates that we should be looking for a beacon. The hinge of the top is at Kenmore Sq. If the lid goes to Massachusetts Ave, the relative "box" would enclose Fenway and the Back Bay Fens. The image on the box appears to be Boston University, which has an observatory, hence the space theme in the image that I mentioned a few posts back. The two blue areas between Dolly Parton's waist and the sash hanging down form the shape of the muddy river split by the off ramp at Charlesgate when viewed on the map.
It's all coming together.
That is so crazy, I just said that to someone a few days ago, including James Renner haha. I said that the lid is a book and you can clearly see the pages. Also the wings on that bird are a map of the roads just outside the victory gardens. I'll post an image. It's Boylston, charlesgate, etc. Take a look. Also I feel like the marking that the 2 C crowd mistakes for a 4 in the sidewalk cracks, is actually a 9 for Boylston St. the lines in the cirlce also represent a map for those exact roads.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
That is so crazy, I just said that to someone a few days ago, including James Renner haha. I said that the lid is a book and you can clearly see the pages. Also the wings on that bird are a map of the roads just outside the victory gardens. I'll post an image. It's Boylston, charlesgate, etc. Take a look. Also I feel like the marking that the 2 C crowd mistakes for a 4 in the sidewalk cracks, is actually a 9 for Boylston St. the lines in the cirlce also represent a map for those exact roads.
Perfect! Scribble something on a map and show us!
strike13
strike13 wrote::
That is so crazy, I just said that to someone a few days ago, including James Renner haha. I said that the lid is a book and you can clearly see the pages. Also the wings on that bird are a map of the roads just outside the victory gardens. I'll post an image. It's Boylston, charlesgate, etc. Take a look. Also I feel like the marking that the 2 C crowd mistakes for a 4 in the sidewalk cracks, is actually a 9 for Boylston St. the lines in the cirlce also represent a map for those exact roads.
I have more to add too, but I need to finish something at work. Stay tuned
strike13
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/5WxnX"><a href="//imgur.com/5WxnX"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
strike13
Sorry...I will have to do it this way quickly
https://imgur.com/a/5WxnX
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Sorry...I will have to do it this way quickly
https://imgur.com/a/5WxnX
Not really seeing it, but if we go with that, those trees in the lower right corner is where the bird, and you, want to dig,
strike13
Also the claw and the brightly colored circle at the top of the bird's stand are the passthrus under the bridge. i was convinced for a while that the brightly colored circle was a lightbulb, still could be, i go back and forth.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Not really seeing it, but if we go with that, there trees in the lower right corner is where the bird, and you, want to dig,
do you also see how the shape of a woman's face faces the water....the victory gardens outline a face. i did notice this too...the fences outside look like what the bird is standing on.
https://imgur.com/a/FIzOm
gManTexas
So the statue right at the corner of Boylston and Fenway is of John Boyle O'Reilly and has been there since 1909 or so. He is a renowned poet and I'm sure Byron Preiss would be familiar with his work.
Read this poem about the Pilgrims and coming to the New World.
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-pilgrim-s-fathers/
Here's the first three lines of the poem:
ONE righteous word for Law—the common will;
One living
truth
of Faith—God regnant still;
One primal test of
Free
dom—all combined;
BINGO
I just went through a set of aerial photographs from the entire Fenway area.
I was specifically looking to see if there were any sets of stairs that may have existed in the past at the Mothers Rest playground area. The nearest photographs that I have to the time period is from 1978. The aerial isn’t the greatest quality, but there doesn’t seem to be any stairs in that area.
One interesting thing that was there is a building between the playground and the O’Reilly statue. It’s hard to tell when it was removed, but it existed in 1978 and it is gone in 1990. (That is the range of years available to me at the moment.)
One could assume that there were stairs at that building and you could easily have them to your back and face the Muddy River.
I will post a photo comparing 1978 to 1990 in a few minutes.
BINGO
Here is the comparison between the photos. Sorry if they aren’t the clearest things to look at. Cropping 40 year old aerial photos at 1:65000 scale isn’t quite as simple as google earth.
https://flic.kr/p/FPQNpG
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Here is the comparison between the photos. Sorry if they aren’t the clearest things to look at. Cropping 40 year old aerial photos at 1:65000 scale isn’t quite as simple as google earth.
https://flic.kr/p/FPQNpG
Great job on this. My guess is near the trees and where the building was. Good hiding place.
DelRayBoston
Hi, I am brand new to this so forgive me. But I saw a few times the number 42 referenced as a part of this picture. It stuck out to me because that was Ted Williams number. Anyway, I know that it has been probably dismissed a bunch of times already so I am sorry if I am a johnny come lately. But when I read the verse and then looked at the picture and then started going down this rabbit hole - the first thing that jumped out to me was the old Southeast Expressway that ran through the City passed the Garden (the colliseum) and a had lights, was green ran pararell to the water... anyway, then I started thinking about the number 42. Well in 1942 another green structure was erected and opened - the elevated GREEN line station and platform of Boston's famed T system. The Green Line on the T has two X points in it as well one is north of the garden at the lechmere stop, the other though is at Park Street where the Green Line hits the Red Line and Orange line but the Green Line itself then branches out into 4 different green lines. 3 of the 4 go to the Kenmore stop but only one goes to the Fenway stop the D line. However I was curious if anyone had ever considered what surrounds the park street and boylston street stations on the Green Line, Boston's Public Gardens? I may be naive to this whole thing but after reading a lot of the theories on your boards and a couple others and really looking at the picture, I see a lot of similiarities to the tracks of the Green Line and how it hits all of these major landmarks but at that Park Street X Point, that portion of the Public Garden has a pond (water) and a few big monunuments. Also the Swan Boats on the Charles River that runs through the half of the park closer to the Back Bay. there are bridges there, monuments, there are 2 castle like structures in the area... Just wondering if either of those two parks were ever given a look. Sorry for being a newbie here but I've been fascinated by it recently and got my copy of the book and started reading these boards... but yeah. Elevated Green T Line with Green columns and platforms and globe like lights on poles, passes the colisseum (garden), travels to an X park street - 'The Park' in Boston is the public gardens. All of this would have been there in 1980 - 1982. And that station elevated T Platform was opened in 1942.
DelRayBoston
Hi Again I know I just started posting today but I am fascinated by this subject ALSO - I am boots on the ground in Boston, if someone needs help with a picture or something I am happy to help as it fits with my schedule.
I have a theory that stems from the verse, more so than the picture - I mention it above - but what if you read the verse as prose and not a verse:
If Thucydides is North of Xenophon, take five steps in the area of his direction. A green tower of lights in the middle section, who pass the coliseum, with metal walls. Face the water, your back to the stairs, feel at home. All the letters are there to see. Eighteenth Day, Twelfth Hour, Lit by Lamplight. In truth, be free.
I am not nearly solved but if you read this like prose I feel like the Green Tower of lights in the middle section, with metal walls - refers to the T (Boston's transit system) - specifically the Green Line. Which starts north of Boston (slightly) at Alewife station. So the T(hucydides) is North of X(enophon) the X meaning your real starting point. Well if you take 5 stops (steps toward the X) on the Green Line (a vehicle with metal walls) from Alewife the X could be Boylston Street Station which is at the corner of the north side of Boston Common. It is also at a 4 corner intersection of roads (an X). Incidentally two things the T passes along the trip to Boylston Street (even though it is underground at this point) are Park Street Church, which has a spire and buidings around it relating to the painting - and the State House which has a dome top. The reason I focus on the Green Line to begin with is because of the Raised portion of it which opened in 19
42
and happens to pass a coliseum in the Boston Garden. The other reason why I focus on the Green Line is because at Park Street (one stop before Boylston) all letters are representd so to speak - the A (old name for the Red Line), B, C, D & E trains all run through there and there are signs for them, which you can see if you get off at Boylston and walk towards the POND there (water) and slightly north to the state house (a Dome).
You could make a case too that all of the other potential Boston landmarks that have been spotted including the Citgo Sign, why they are in spots of the painting that are slightly behind the woman is maybe that refers again to all of the points of Boston that the Green Line can take people to - E train goes out towards back bay, B and C and D all go to Kenmore, D going to Fenway, C and B going to different points past the Fenway including boston college (the Eagles).
I was just wondering if anyone has considered the Public Gardens - either the side (either the pond on the side I am referring to or on the other side near the the Swan Boat rides etc) as sites to where you can face the water with your back to stairs (there are plenty of points in either side of the public gardens where there are stairs) and then from there figure out the last part the eigteenth day and the twelth hour etc...
jch16
DelRayBoston wrote::
Hi, I am brand new to this so forgive me. But I saw a few times the number 42 referenced as a part of this picture. It stuck out to me because that was Ted Williams number.
I'm not trying to discredit the rest of your theory - but Ted Williams wore #9.
gManTexas
Teddy Williams did hit that one ball into section 42 though!
hxxp://www.bostonspastime.com/redseat.html
jch16
gManTexas wrote::
Teddy Williams did hit that one ball into section 42 though!
hxxp://www.bostonspastime.com/redseat.html
And he did win the Triple Crown in 1942: .356 avg, 36 HRs, 137 RBIs and somehow lost the MVP to Joe Gordon.
DelRayBoston
Yes I was just kidding on the ted Williams number thing. It is tough to get humor or whatever through on text. That being said, is my theory really that crazy compared to everything else that is proposed, to be discredited? The elevated green line that passes a coliseum was erected in 1942...
burningfire71
Black Falcon Terminal is on Black Falcon Ave.
The claw of the bird is "Paradise Bay"
On the wing of the Falcon appears to be the Transit system = T which it is standing on
I believe the image is mirrored. The Falcon should be on the opposite side.
The triangles near the bird appear to be Logan airport runways
jch16
DelRayBoston wrote::
Yes I was just kidding on the ted Williams number thing. It is tough to get humor or whatever through on text. That being said, is my theory really that crazy compared to everything else that is proposed, to be discredited? The elevated green line that passes a coliseum was erected in 1942...
Sorry if I missed the joke. I wasn't trying to discredit your theory. All theories are viable until proven otherwise by having the actual casque in hand. So I'm sorry if my comment came across as trying to discredit you.
strike13
burningfire71 wrote::
Black Falcon Terminal is on Black Falcon Ave.
The claw of the bird is "Paradise Bay"
On the wing of the Falcon appears to be the Transit system = T which it is standing on
I believe the image is mirrored. The Falcon should be on the opposite side.
The triangles near the bird appear to be Logan airport runways
Uggghhh..been racking my brain trying to remember what in my research brought me ro mirrors. Something here shas a meaning of mirrors and i will remember soon enough but I thought to myself hmmm could this be mirrored image and if so what would be the purpose behind it and how could that change any outcome of finding it
BINGO
For those who are trying to associate Logan Airport, the letters “bos” have been identified in the sleeve on the right side of the image. BOS is the airport abbreviation for Logan Airport.
DelRayBoston
jch16 wrote::
Sorry if I missed the joke. I wasn't trying to discredit your theory. All theories are viable until proven otherwise by having the actual casque in hand. So I'm sorry if my comment came across as trying to discredit you.
No problem - sarcasm and typing rarely go hand in hand for the inexperienced wordsmith like me... so really no worries. I wish everyone luck in this search .. I am eternally fascinated. Thanks.
BINGO
So, the damn bird has been driving me a little crazy lately. I can’t make a connection to Boston that fits or makes much sense.
I have sketched the shadows of it, spun it around to get a different prospective and nothing seems to fit. One look that did start me on a new path of head scratching is this view of the bird.
https://flic.kr/p/Kctge2
The top of the T is a long nose, the lighted (left) end of the T is an eye. It reminds me of an Egyptian or possibly an African bird or animal character from hieroglyphs or something similar. It just looks familiar, but I admit I can’t seem to find anything that fits.
Any comments are welcomed. (Even those who think I’m nuts.)
BINGO
I was recently inspired by a burnstyle post showing St Augustine wtitten in the weeds of image 6.
It’s not pretty, but Boston can be found in image 11.
https://flic.kr/p/EuoxuV
If this has been previously discussed, I apologize. I am currently on page 42 of my complete read of this thread. It is a long process...
strike13
BINGO wrote::
So, the damn bird has been driving me a little crazy lately. I can’t make a connection to Boston that fits or makes much sense.
I have sketched the shadows of it, spun it around to get a different prospective and nothing seems to fit. One look that did start me on a new path of head scratching is this view of the bird.
https://flic.kr/p/Kctge2
The top of the T is a long nose, the lighted (left) end of the T is an eye. It reminds me of an Egyptian or possibly an African bird or animal character from hieroglyphs or something similar. It just looks familiar, but I admit I can’t seem to find anything that fits.
Any comments are welcomed. (Even those who think I’m nuts.)
https://imgur.com/a/5WxnX
what you think?
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
So, the damn bird has been driving me a little crazy lately. I can’t make a connection to Boston that fits or makes much sense.
I have sketched the shadows of it, spun it around to get a different prospective and nothing seems to fit. One look that did start me on a new path of head scratching is this view of the bird.
https://flic.kr/p/Kctge2
The top of the T is a long nose, the lighted (left) end of the T is an eye. It reminds me of an Egyptian or possibly an African bird or animal character from hieroglyphs or something similar. It just looks familiar, but I admit I can’t seem to find anything that fits.
Any comments are welcomed. (Even those who think I’m nuts.)
My eyes see the bird as a map of Back Bay Fens. The head is the Kelleher Rose Garden. The eye is the fountain and the beak is the paths that come to a point.
The body (slightly detached from the head) is the Victory Gardens.
The perch is Boylston Street, with the bright spot being the intersection of Boylston and Charlesgate with all the traffic lights.
The tail feathers are Charlesgate park leading down to the Charles RIver.
The underbelly of the bird is the Muddy River.
The raised foot (ready to dig) hovers above Mothers Rest.
burnstyle
Boston is here bro.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5pNr ... HhLd3JIUWs
*edit bf5man showed me this
BINGO
burnstyle wrote::
Boston is here bro.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5pNr ... HhLd3JIUWs
*edit bf5man showed me this
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw the scrollwork in the panel of the pillar that he is sitting on. I have almost been hit by cars (on multiple occasions) trying to find that scrollwork on buildings and monuments all over Boston. It’s the first time I’ve seen anything even close.
Thank you for that tidbit.
drunknerds
Why are there always lke 50 general city indicators in every image? We only need, like, two, Preiss, give us some more Greek Garden walls!
burnstyle
Here. Throw up some more.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5pNr ... 19MaHpNRmc
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Why are there always lke 50 general city indicators in every image? We only need, like, two, Preiss, give us some more Greek Garden walls!
I know, right? I'm still of the opinion that BP made this book primarily for kids, albeit really smart and studious kids. Where one person might get one clue, another might get a different one. Still gets you to the city. I also think this was intended to be a group effort, not unlike a D&D campaign.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
I know, right? I'm still of the opinion that BP made this book primarily for kids, albeit really smart and studious kids. Where one person might get one clue, another might get a different one. Still gets you to the city. I also think this was intended to be a group effort, not unlike a D&D campaign.
I cast Illuminate darkness and then I cast demystify
bf5man
What if there was another Boston hidden somewhere in the image?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5pNr ... 2NXaHc4TVE
This one is debatable however.
JamesV
Doing some internet sleuthing today, and just wondering if any Boston hunters ever got around to checking out the "Golden Staircase" area in East Boston? It was mentioned a couple times in this thread about 10 years ago, but not sure if anyone ever looked into it. Might be worth a walk-through given the immigration theme of this book, although the landscape here looks to have changed significantly since 1982.
hxxp://umanaebhs.blogspot.com/2009/10/e ... tie-2.html
"Boston was second only to New York in the total number of immigrant arrivals around the turn of the 20th century."
gManTexas
JamesV wrote::
Doing some internet sleuthing today, and just wondering if any Boston hunters ever got around to checking out the "Golden Staircase" area in East Boston? It was mentioned a couple times in this thread about 10 years ago, but not sure if anyone ever looked into it. Might be worth a walk-through given the immigration theme of this book, although the landscape here looks to have changed significantly since 1982.
hxxp://umanaebhs.blogspot.com/2009/10/e ... tie-2.html
"Boston was second only to New York in the total number of immigrant arrivals around the turn of the 20th century."
That's a great thought. Not sure where we would dig near the docks though.
BINGO
I’ll see if I can swing by there tomorrow. I will be in South Boston most of the day, but I should be able to sneak over there.
I’m not all that familiar with the layout at the site. Is there anything specific you would like me to check out or take pictures of?
JamesV
BINGO wrote::
I’ll see if I can swing by there tomorrow. I will be in South Boston most of the day, but I should be able to sneak over there.
I’m not all that familiar with the layout at the site. Is there anything specific you would like me to check out or take pictures of?
Not really-- maybe just have a look around (when your schedule permits!) to see if anything might line up with one of the Verses? Or if you're a sucker for detail, try counting the steps. It looks like the actual immigration station was torn down by Massport a few years ago, and I couldn't find any obvious historical markers or similar through the Internet.
erexere
I've been thinking about the problem we must resolve once a correct site is found, that is how do we determine the exact spot to dig? Everyone is a aware of how Cleveland's instructions were clear except for the subtle switch of perspective facing the wall to facing away from the wall to count bricks correctly. How might Boston incur a similar exercise? Maybe the "take 5 steps in the area of his direction" and "face the water/your back to the stairs" lines are from a similarly entrenched position.
We might have our backs to the water and face the stairs. 5 steps in some direction has to obvious to the person examining the right scene.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
I've been thinking about the problem we must resolve once a correct site is found, that is how do we determine the exact spot to dig
...well, exactly. The only solved casques had relatively precise instructions (still a struggle to find), but several of the remaining ones have nothing comparable. So they're either in the verse but more cryptic, or in the image. Think we have to be open to the possibility of image-based locations.
erexere
I was wondering how confident people were about the triangle in the Cleveland image being turned into an arrow that points to a spot relative to the wall. There are some triangles in this image for Boston so maybe one of those helps us locate the location. Or there's an actual arrow shape disguised as one of those buildings right on the Box? The big question for me then is what is our physical anchor in the image that represents something like the wall in Cleveland?
BINGO
I just visited the Golden Stairs in East Boston. Absolutely nothing jumped out at me from image or verse. The “park”, which is tiny and built into a steep hill has definitely been remodeled in the recent past. The stairs and railings are newer concrete and steel, the block retaining walls and brick walkways also look newer. (10 years or less.)
The surrounding buildings are very old, but not a ton of architectural accents to look at or compare.
The view of the city is nice, but no major landmarks seem to stand out. The interesting thing that I did see was on the map when I entered the address into my phone for directions. The city skyline and the wharf outline just seem like they should fit into the jagged hairline of the lady in the image. But that seems to be problematic for anyone to make an exact match.
Here are some pics.
https://flic.kr/p/22NHvwa
https://flic.kr/p/22NHwcP
https://flic.kr/p/22NHreT
https://flic.kr/p/G3cU8G
https://flic.kr/p/Kea6C2
If the casque was here, I think it will be very difficult to determine where it may have been.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
I was wondering how confident people were about the triangle in the Cleveland image being turned into an arrow that points to a spot relative to the wall. There are some triangles in this image for Boston so maybe one of those helps us locate the location. Or there's an actual arrow shape disguised as one of those buildings right on the Box? The big question for me then is what is our physical anchor in the image that represents something like the wall in Cleveland?
I'm on the fence about the jewels in the images being in the location where they are buried relative to the other landmarks/map overlays/geographical features. Image 12 (NY) and Image 1 (SF) don't seem to fit that mold, although we don't have either of those casques, so hard to tell.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
I just visited the Golden Stairs in East Boston. Absolutely nothing jumped out at me from image or verse. The “park”, which is tiny and built into a steep hill has definitely been remodeled in the recent past. The stairs and railings are newer concrete and steel, the block retaining walls and brick walkways also look newer. (10 years or less.)
The surrounding buildings are very old, but not a ton of architectural accents to look at or compare.
The view of the city is nice, but no major landmarks seem to stand out. The interesting thing that I did see was on the map when I entered the address into my phone for directions. The city skyline and the wharf outline just seem like they should fit into the jagged hairline of the lady in the image. But that seems to be problematic for anyone to make an exact match.
Here are some pics.
https://flic.kr/p/22NHvwa
https://flic.kr/p/22NHwcP
https://flic.kr/p/22NHreT
https://flic.kr/p/G3cU8G
https://flic.kr/p/Kea6C2
If the casque was here, I think it will be very difficult to determine where it may have been.
I am sorry, it is absolutely not in East Boston.
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
I am sorry, it is absolutely not in East Boston.
I tend to agree. But, my theory on the casque location is pretty simple.
I don’t have any concrete evidence that tells where exactly one should dig to pull a casque out of the ground. Until I do, I plan to keep stumbling around this city until something magic happens. It may never happen, it may happen tomorrow. Until then, all theories are in play.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
I tend to agree. But, my theory on the casque location is pretty simple.
I don’t have any concrete evidence that tells where exactly one should dig to pull a casque out of the ground. Until I do, I plan to keep stumbling around this city until something magic happens. It may never happen, it may happen tomorrow. Until then, all theories are in play.
I am in the same place as you Bingo. Where in Bos do you live ? North ender here! I also recall reading somewhere and I am trying to remember the source, but when ppl talk about the steps by the mother's rest, I read those were def not there in the 80s and was an addition in either the late 80s or 90s. I am looking for my source
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
I am in the same place as you Bingo. Where in Bos do you live ? North ender here! I also recall reading somewhere and I am trying to remember the source, but when ppl talk about the steps by the mother's rest, I read those were def not there in the 80s and was an addition in either the late 80s or 90s. I am looking for my source
I did a potential solve and created a thread for it. It hinges on the staircase being there, or one that used to be there. There was a Master Plan done in 1977 recommending the addition of the stairs, and I believe they were constructed shortly afterwards.
gManTexas
For what it's worth, I found someone's detailed solve online. They place the casque by a cherry tree near the Rose Garden.
https://thesecretatreasurehunt.wordpress.com
JamesV
@Bingo: Well, back to the drawing board then. Hats off for braving Boston in February, though!
strike13
Also, wanted to add this....I think the top of her dress around the waist area resembles the Japanese Temple bell over int he fens.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image ... 9cdab448dd
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
For what it's worth, I found someone's detailed solve online. They place the casque by a cherry tree near the Rose Garden.
https://thesecretatreasurehunt.wordpress.com
As a professional land surveyor, I feel the need to report myself to the licensing board for actually trying to make sense of the gratuitous use of a protractor in that proposed solve.
Otherwise, it had some interesting information. I may go and poke a bunch holes around that cherry tree during my lunch break one of these days.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
As a professional land surveyor, I feel the need to report myself to the licensing board for actually trying to make sense of the gratuitous use of a protractor in that proposed solve.
Otherwise, it had some interesting information. I may go and poke a bunch holes around that cherry tree during my lunch break one of these days.
LOL, just shaking the trees, so to speak.
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
Also, wanted to add this....I think the top of her dress around the waist area resembles the Japanese Temple bell over int he fens.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image ... 9cdab448dd
The color is very similar, but I haven’t been able to really make a perfect match to anything in the image. Everytime I go by it, I stop and stare at it for a while because it’s a pretty neat artifact. It was cast in the 1600’s according to the plaque attached to it.
It also has a slight resemblance to one of the bells in image 3. Not perfect, slight.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
The color is very similar, but I haven’t been able to really make a perfect match to anything in the image. Everytime I go by it, I stop and stare at it for a while because it’s a pretty neat artifact. It was cast in the 1600’s according to the plaque attached to it.
It also has a slight resemblance to one of the bells in image 3. Not perfect, slight.
Yeah...and the structure of the top if it matches to the top of her waist area of the dress.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
For what it's worth, I found someone's detailed solve online. They place the casque by a cherry tree near the Rose Garden.
https://thesecretatreasurehunt.wordpress.com
Unknown:
While many people see a ‘112°’ written in the flower petals to the bottom left of said map. I believe that this actually reads ‘212°’, as 212° is the boiling point for water. This is a reference to John Boyle O’Reilly
Oh thanks, I'll check this ou-
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
I'm on the fence about the jewels in the images being in the location where they are buried relative to the other landmarks/map overlays/geographical features. Image 12 (NY) and Image 1 (SF) don't seem to fit that mold, although we don't have either of those casques, so hard to tell.
Same here. On the one hand, the map of GGP in San Francisco would place the Gem over the ocean. On the other hand, there's that new theory (maybe it's mine, idk if I was the first) that the neck where the pearl is is an exact x-marks the spot of the grassy dig location.
And, while we're on the topic, is there any explanation for the jewel's placement in image 2? It really screams "JJP forgot to put a gem in there and just put it somewhere at the last moment"
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Oh thanks, I'll check this ou-
"There's no one that can dig a tunnel faster than our machines" said the white man.
"I can" said John Holmes
and they raced, and John Holmes won. Exhausted, he leaned on his hammer, but felt vibrations.
Suddenly, from over the hill came a man who could tunnel harder than any man or machine. It was whoever wrote this theory.
erexere
drunksy, I think you meant John Henry... John Holmes is the long schlong guy.
Anyway, I'm trying to builld up my puzzle-foo in this reverse-engineered perspective for Cleveland,
Is there something like this to be had for Boston's Charlesgate area?
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
drunksy, I think you meant John Henry... John Holmes is the long schlong guy.
Omigosh. That IS embarrassing, especially since I specifically looked up John Henry to make sure I got the name right. Everyone, feel free to laugh at my freudian slip!
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Omigosh. That IS embarrassing, especially since I specifically looked up John Henry to make sure I got the name right. Everyone, feel free to laugh at my freudian slip!
Yeah, I was waiting for the punchline...
erexere
E: Posted a cool pic of what I think is going on in Boston, but I pulled it for the time being. If anyone saw it before I pulled it, feel free to comment. I'm going to PM it to BINGO since he's doing a lot of explorations at the site currently.
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
This makes like negative sense to me, which sucks because I really want to make sense of it. How come there are zero features in common between the two pictures?
erexere
I've selected particular features that seem to fit, but may not immediately make sense to anyone. It's all just a crapshoot from where I sit, but if you're so inclined, you might wonder if the sphere on the wall is a placeholder for a large urn at the site. The other factor is the hoof of the centaur might be pointing down for a reason. Also, look closely at how I've scaled the actual picture of the site so that the width of the base from urn to urn is matching the first level base of the painting's wall. Sorry if it looks funky and all, but that blue boxed area is the actual spot you get when you count the bricks across and then down.
E: I've also made a comparative overlay of how the jewel in the painting might suggest an axis for finding the dig spot.
Haarstick
Have you guys listened to the new "Shhhh The Secret" podcasts? They give really good insight in how the solved puzzles were deciphered and what themes/tricks might be used to solve the others.
erexere
Thanks Haarstick. I have heard the first two podcasts. They are a great source for informed and experienced perspectives.
strike13
Have a look at this monument...something look familiar? And sound familiar..freedom? Amd also going along with whoever wrote about Shaw on here...
strike13
strike13 wrote::
Have a look at this monument...something look familiar? And sound familiar..freedom? Amd also going along with whoever wrote about Shaw on here...
Oops...did not post link
https://www.nps.gov/boaf/learn/historyculture/shaw.htm
strike13
Oops...did not post link
https://www.nps.gov/boaf/learn/historyculture/shaw.htm
[/quote]
I'm also not saying that i think it is here..just sharing the fairy similarities for starters ..happy friday!
BINGO
I finally finished reading all 130+ pages of this thread.
I hate to admit it, but I think I fall into the same category as all of the other hunters that are local to Boston. Other than the long/lat numbers and the general shape of the Rose Garden that point to Boston in this image, I can’t get on board with any of the findings throughout this thread. Nothing is a solid lock in my opinion. Nothing comes close to the quality of the known “visual confirmers” that are present in the other images. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trying too hard to make a similarity into actual hard visual evidence.
One might think that I am a newbie and that I don’t understand or respect the work that has been put into this puzzle. This is far from the truth. I am a land surveyor and in 2013, I was contracted to do a complete topographic survey of the Charlesgate area including the roadways, walkways, buildings, muddy river and the famous 2C structure. NO ONE has a fraction of time that I have invested into the 2C area. It was then, while conducting the survey, that a Longwood police officer told me about the “treasure hunt”. It’s been a fascination of mine since that day.
That being said, I have no plans on giving up the hunt in Boston. I believe a casque is here and I want to do what I can to help find it. I work in and around the city every day. For almost 5 years, I have looked at every metal railing, set of steps, read every plaque and analyzed every statue that I walk by. I’ve found that I do this wherever I go, not just in Boston. I can’t help it and I can’t stop myself.
So, if anyone has an idea or area that they would like investigated, I’m at your disposal. I have digging tools stashed all around the city and good relationships already built with the Police department and the DCR (parks dept). I will dig holes, probe or just take pictures if you like.
I challenge you all to change my mind about this IMAGE.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I finally finished reading all 130+ pages of this thread.
I hate to admit it, but I think I fall into the same category as all of the other hunters that are local to Boston. Other than the long/lat numbers and the general shape of the Rose Garden that point to Boston in this image, I can’t get on board with any of the findings throughout this thread. Nothing is a solid lock in my opinion. Nothing comes close to the quality of the known “visual confirmers” that are present in the other images. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trying too hard to make a similarity into actual hard visual evidence.
One might think that I am a newbie and that I don’t understand or respect the work that has been put into this puzzle. This is far from the truth. I am a land surveyor and in 2013, I was contracted to do a complete topographic survey of the Charlesgate area including the roadways, walkways, buildings, muddy river and the famous 2C structure. NO ONE has a fraction of time that I have invested into the 2C area. It was then, while conducting the survey, that a Longwood police officer told me about the “treasure hunt”. It’s been a fascination of mine since that day.
That being said, I have no plans on giving up the hunt in Boston. I believe a casque is here and I want to do what I can to help find it. I work in and around the city every day. For almost 5 years, I have looked at every metal railing, set of steps, read every plaque and analyzed every statue that I walk by. I’ve found that I do this wherever I go, not just in Boston. I can’t help it and I can’t stop myself.
So, if anyone has an idea or area that they would like investigated, I’m at your disposal. I have digging tools stashed all around the city and good relationships already built with the Police department and the DCR (parks dept). I will dig holes, probe or just take pictures if you like.
I challenge you all to change my mind about this IMAGE.
Thanks for your efforts! Keep up the good hunt.
WhiteRabbit
BINGO wrote::
So, if anyone has an idea or area that they would like investigated, I’m at your disposal. I have digging tools stashed all around the city and good relationships already built with the Police department and the DCR (parks dept). I will dig holes, probe or just take pictures if you like.
I challenge you all to change my mind about this IMAGE.
It's a great offer Bingo, thanks.
I think it's possible that the images contain clues in small details which might not have been seen yet, especially when you consider the size of the originals.
For instance I was just looking at the fairy's wing in the book, where I'd always thought there was a pattern of four dots, but I'm now wondering if it's an "X".
I'll see if I can get another scan of the page in case it offers any different perspectives.
BINGO
Speaking of connecting dots.
Something that has made me wonder about a possible X and T connection in the image is the two rectangles on each side of the woman. Both rectangles have 9 boxes inside of them that look similar to a Rubik’s cube. The left side has dots in the boxes that if connected create a lower case t. The right side has dots in the boxes that when connected form an x.
Nothing earth shattering, just similar to what WR had just mentioned.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Speaking of connecting dots.
Something that has made me wonder about a possible X and T connection in the image is the two rectangles on each side of the woman. Both rectangles have 9 boxes inside of them that look similar to a Rubik’s cube. The left side has dots in the boxes that if connected create a lower case t. The right side has dots in the boxes that when connected form an x.
Nothing earth shattering, just similar to what WR had just mentioned.
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
strike13
WhiteRabbit wrote::
It's a great offer Bingo, thanks.
I think it's possible that the images contain clues in small details which might not have been seen yet, especially when you consider the size of the originals.
For instance I was just looking at the fairy's wing in the book, where I'd always thought there was a pattern of four dots, but I'm now wondering if it's an "X".
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Nhpu8wp.jpg[/
I'll see if I can get another scan of the page in case it offers any different perspectives.
i often have wondered the same thing...as the more i look, the more i see fine fine details. i am wondering though, since the book itself was so small, and the photos of the images were in black and white, what would be the purpose to hide all the clues in the original when the book doesn't even show a fraction of the detail the originals do, nevermind just these colored copies we see online. i love all the details in the paintings of the originals, but i wonder if we are really just meant to be able to use the smaller, black and whites in the book? just one of many random thoughts in my head
burnstyle
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I think it's possible that the images contain clues in small details which might not have been seen yet, especially when you consider the size of the originals...
I remember hearing once... on q4t I think, that the dots in NY were meant to be something very specific but JJP said it was almost impossible to make out because the images was sized so small, and the printed colors were slightly different than the painting colors.
erexere
Just a reminder of how Boston's Charlesgate area changed between 2007 and 2009. Also I highlighted the Red triangled Citgo sign. I think that landmark is represented by the triangle in the elbow of the woman's sleeve. Notice the slight location difference between the old green light tower and the new tower.
WhiteRabbit
strike13 wrote::
...the photos of the images were in black and white...the book doesn't even show a fraction of the detail the originals do...i wonder if we are really just meant to be able to use the smaller, black and whites in the book
...not sure what you mean...? The book is in colour, and the images online are scans of the book.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
...not sure what you mean...?
Neither do I since it is clear from earlier posts that strike13 knows the Images are in color ("Also the claw and the
brightly colored circle
at the top of the bird's stand are the passthrus under the bridge."). Maybe s/he is talking about all the other drawings and sketches in the book, which are in black and white?
BINGO
erexere wrote::
Just a reminder of how Boston's Charlesgate area changed between 2007 and 2009. Also I highlighted the Red triangled Citgo sign. I think that landmark is represented by the triangle in the elbow of the woman's sleeve. Notice the slight location difference between the old green light tower and the new tower.
The location of the old light pole is easily found at the site. It appears that they removed the old light and base and then put a junction box where the base used to be. This allowed them to use the original wiring in conjunction with the new fancier green light. That junction box is located in the brick section of the walkway before it turns to concrete.
strike13
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...not sure what you mean...? The book is in colour, and the images online are scans of the book.
I have read many times on here that the images are in black and white in the book. My mistake if I am mistaken..haha
strike13
BINGO wrote::
The location of the old light pole is easily found at the site. It appears that they removed the old light and base and then put a junction box where the base used to be. This allowed them to use the original wiring in conjunction with the new fancier green light. That junction box is located in the brick section of the walkway before it turns to concrete.
I think, that if it is
anywhere
near the CG, then it is over by where the utility box was, even on the right side of the fence, and not on the side you shouldn't be on. the fence support posts may for that t object the bird is sitting on
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
I think, that if it is
anywhere
near the CG, then it is over by where the utility box was, even on the right side of the fence, and not on the side you shouldn't be on. the fence support posts may for that t object the bird is sitting on
That was an area of my attention for quite some time. If it is there, I will be surprised. I have dug multiple holes in that section on multiple occasions. I also made Swiss cheese out of the area with a utility probe. I found nothing of importance. I still peek over there whenever I’m in the area just to look at things with fresh eyes.
It does appear that someone has had the same theory in the last month or so. The hole in the center of the C’s has been dug out again and it looks like 3-4 holes have been dug by the northern (removed) utility box and light pole as well. Judging from the location of those holes, I’m pretty positive they didn’t find anything...
WhiteRabbit
Egbert wrote::
There are things in the Image which are not within sight of the treasure, the most notable being the Italian fountain with the lion face and large shell
It might be worth remembering that some of the references in the Litany are relevant to the locations. Eg:
Fairies of England proudly bear
Garnet, crown-jewel of their Queen
Location near Roanoke's Elizabethan Garden.
The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet
Aquamarine, spring-water clear
Peridot of old Italy:
Antique, and olivine, and rich
No known relevance to Boston, but "Antique" has always struck me as a curious word to use.
Haarstick
Bingo -
I have to say I agree with you - I'm not completely sold on Boston by just the image alone. I lived in Boston for 5 years (in Kenmore Square) and nothing from the image looks familiar. Each of the other paintings that has been solved (Chicago, Cleveland) or are close to being solved (St Augustine) has very clearly seen landmarks or icons - the water tower, the shape of Florida, the Cleveland Tower, etc. Where in this painting is there anything that leads us to Boston?
The one thing that sticks out from the podcasts was that when you see the clue, it is almost an exact match - there is no question. And you also didn't need to read too much into the poems - once you're at the right spot, it all just makes sense.
Maybe Preiss wanted to use the poem to get us to Boston? There's more evidence there: 1) Paul Revere's ride but even that is obscure . 2) If X is north of T - but you'd have to know the Walpole letters to figure that out and this was all before the internet. Did he expect the readers to know this? Did he want us to do this much research, go to libraries, etc? Again, no internet so how did he want us to solve them?
Ugh - sorry - just so frustrated! If only there was one really clear symbol or icon in the painting that screamed Boston! I've even researched Plymouth, Provincetown, Manchester NH and Keene NH looking for landmarks, shapes, icons, etc. It's all been fun but maddening! (I researched Plymouth because he mentions it in the book like he did with the Fountain of Youth which I thought was interesting.)
Oh and you can buy the book on Amazon now!
erexere
I don't think it's at next to the light and boxes. I am tempted to make a claim that this is solved just to keep the trolls happy. Standby. I'll PM Bingo.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
Bingo -
I have to say I agree with you - I'm not completely sold on Boston by just the image alone. I lived in Boston for 5 years (in Kenmore Square) and nothing from the image looks familiar. Each of the other paintings that has been solved (Chicago, Cleveland) or are close to being solved (St Augustine) has very clearly seen landmarks or icons - the water tower, the shape of Florida, the Cleveland Tower, etc. Where in this painting is there anything that leads us to Boston?
The one thing that sticks out from the podcasts was that when you see the clue, it is almost an exact match - there is no question. And you also didn't need to read too much into the poems - once you're at the right spot, it all just makes sense.
Maybe Preiss wanted to use the poem to get us to Boston? There's more evidence there: 1) Paul Revere's ride but even that is obscure . 2) If X is north of T - but you'd have to know the Walpole letters to figure that out and this was all before the internet. Did he expect the readers to know this? Did he want us to do this much research, go to libraries, etc? Again, no internet so how did he want us to solve them?
Ugh - sorry - just so frustrated! If only there was one really clear symbol or icon in the painting that screamed Boston! I've even researched Plymouth, Provincetown, Manchester NH and Keene NH looking for landmarks, shapes, icons, etc. It's all been fun but maddening! (I researched Plymouth because he mentions it in the book like he did with the Fountain of Youth which I thought was interesting.)
Oh and you can buy the book on Amazon now!
Same here. I've lived in the city for 20 yrs...in the north end. I've been looking at this for a while now. I also so badly wanted it to be in the north end, with the italian immigrant connection...as well as what looks like the wharfs in her hair. Why don't we say "wharves" haha. Anyway, i also do not see anything that screams boston.
..but there must be something we are missing
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
I don't think it's at next to the light and boxes. I am tempted to make a claim that this is solved just to keep the trolls happy. Standby. I'll PM Bingo.
The suspense!
Haarstick
I was convinced it was in the little park across from Paul revere's house in the North End for a while - start at the library, walk up through Boston Common (kind of the shape of her skirt front) and head towards his house following the Freedom Trail? The North star in the painting, all the letters here to see (the plaque in the sidewalk with the alphabet), near those who pass the coliseum (the park right across from Paul Revere's house is right over Sumner Tunnel that goes to TD Garden - right?), a green tower of lights (right behind the park), the street is called Moon Street (there's a moon in the painting), scroll work in one of the buildings is similar to her dress, it's right on the Freedom Trail, etc. I even thought maybe the church across from his house had something to do with it. Did you see these clues as well or am I crazy?
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I was convinced it was in the little park across from Paul revere's house in the North End for a while - start at the library, walk up through Boston Common (kind of the shape of her skirt front) and head towards his house following the Freedom Trail? The North star in the painting, all the letters here to see (the plaque in the sidewalk with the alphabet), near those who pass the coliseum (the park right across from Paul Revere's house is right over Sumner Tunnel that goes to TD Garden - right?), a green tower of lights (right behind the park), the street is called Moon Street (there's a moon in the painting), scroll work in one of the buildings is similar to her dress, it's right on the Freedom Trail, etc. I even thought maybe the church across from his house had something to do with it. Did you see these clues as well or am I crazy?
I definitely see what you are saying. I never thought of Moon St. for moon though, I like it. I noticed the scrollwork in the building in North Sq...but then again I notice that same scrollwork in a lot of buildings around the city. I am in North Sq every day with my dog...and have been constantly looking for things that could fit with this area. Where is the plaque in the sidewalk w the alphabet and why have I missed it haha! Yeah North sq is pretty much right over the tunnel too. When you say park , do you mean north sq? the cobblestone park w the circular flowerbed in the middle? You're not crazy, I see these things too
BINGO
I’ll share a rabbit hole that had me trapped for a while. In 2014, the company that I work for started a multi year excavation project at Umass Boston, it is still ongoing and I am there multiple times a week. The site is on a peninsula that is next to Dorchester Bay and Savin Hill Cove. It is a relatively small property (less that a mile long) and surrounded by water.
Here are the parts related to the hunt.
The main access road is named after Dominic Bianculli who died in 1980. Possible Italian connection.
The Boston Globe is directly across the street.
Would you believe that there is an impressive castle located just a few hundred yards away from the Boston Globe and in the center of the Umass campus?
https://flic.kr/p/GbS9Ko
The picture doesn’t do this building justice.
There are close to 100 light poles all over the campus that look like this.
https://flic.kr/p/21yHrSo
There are multiple sets of staircases that lead to the water. (Some even have 5 steps).
The Hancock tower and the Prudential building can be seen from almost anywhere on campus.
https://flic.kr/p/23eR695
The Massachusetts Archives building and the JFK Library (a newly opened landmark at the time) share a parking lot and are located on campus. (Plenty of letters to see here.)
Speaking of letters and parking lots, Umass is a commuter college so there are no dorms on campus. Tons of parking lots that are identified by letters. Lot A, Lot B, etc.
Being next to the ocean, the campus is pestered by birds of all kinds. Geese, nesting hawks, currently a pair of snow owls, and tons of seagulls. It gets so bad, the campus maintenance has to put out foam decoy foxes is order to keep the birds away from student common areas. (A connection to the damn bird?)
Logan Airport runways and castle island (bird claw in the image) are viewable across the bay.
It was an exciting run, but with all of that circumstantial evidence, not a single “visual confirmer” could be found. I wanted it badly, and convinced myself that things lined up. They just don’t.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
It was an exciting run, but with all of that circumstantial evidence, not a single “visual confirmer” could be found. I wanted it badly, and convinced myself that things lined up. They just don’t.
This is true of many of the Images IMHO. I think the two puzzles that have been solved probably have the strongest visual clues. This is possibly by design, so people would find the casques quickly to prove this was no hoax. I have been beating my head against the San Francisco puzzle and there's not much in the Image to go off. Maybe generally, but someone please show me a Giant pole and Giant step!
drunknerds
I tried roaming Golden Gate Park, asking people to show me a giant pole. Now I have my own Secret
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
I tried roaming Golden Gate Park, asking people to show me a giant pole. Now I have my own Secret
MrBackstop
gManTexas wrote::
Could it be these stairs, which I believe are still present?
hxxp://olmsted.nonprofitsoapbox.com/sto ... _image.jpg
gMan, I just ran into your post on a search today. I've been looking at Boston research for the last few days and can't believe how much incredible research has been done all these years. I just wish I would have known about "The Secret" when I was in Boston for Christmas week.
I like the idea of down the stairs at Mother's Rest by the Boylston St Bridge. Face the water with your back to the stairs sure sounds like you'd feel at home in Mother's Rest. But I look at the numbers 18 and 12 like this. The 12 is representing North and depending just how close that bridge is (and I can't tell from what I've seen) to the stairs, you take 18 paces to the North. That street light (lamp light) on the bridge will show you the area to target depending on the shadow. But what might make that more difficult is the maturity of the trees/bushes in that area today. Would be targeting over near that graffiti on the bridge in this photo:
https://www2.bing.com/images/search?vie ... ajaxhist=0
What really caught my attention today was when looking down at the monument, you can clearly see how the shape of the pavers that create the overall monument area including the benches and curb are identical to Erin's hair in Image 11.
The emerald being held by the fairy could indicate that the casque is located to the North of her hair, when read in conjunction with the Verse.
https://www2.bing.com/images/search?vie ... ajaxhist=0
Have some of the Boston Searchers dug over by this area of the Boylston Bridge?
Haarstick
So here's my bizarre brained logic - the clues aren't meant to be ready line by line but are usually mixed up a bit with random clues thrown in some odd places so this is out of order:
- "Eighteenth day twelfth hour lit by lamplight" (meant to be a general clue to Paul Revere?)
- "If X is north of T" (start at Boston Public Library)
- "In the area of his direction" it seems from the other puzzles, Preiss wanted people to walk and explore (the Chicago clues took you straight down one road until you found more clues which were "M and B are etched in stone" - you were then supposed to wander in search of more clues) - walking towards Paul Revere's house would take you through the Boston Common and onto the Freedom Trail ("in truth be free" hint?)
- "all the letters are here to see" - pass the Latin School at 45 School Street (oldest public school where Ben Franklin went) which has a plaque on the ground with the alphabet
hxxp://bostonlitdistrict.org/venue/site ... in-school/
. Here's the map in Google maps (hope the link works):
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.357805, ... 312!8i6656
- the Freedom Trail eventually takes you up to Paul Revere's House
- "Near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls" - his house is right over the Sumner Tunnel that goes to TD Garden
- "Take five steps" - if you take five steps out of Paul Revere's house (5 blocks in the crosswalk?), it take you to the North Square park (a stretch I know)
- "A green tower of lights" - the green building at the top of the park??
- "In the middle section" - the North Square Park??
- the street is called Moon Street (there's a moon in the painting) - there used to be a bookstore there called Globe Corner Books (globe in the painting)
- "Face the water your back to the stairs" - was there a water fountain in the round flower bed in 1982? - back to the stairs of the brownstone next to the green tower?
- could "all the letters" be reference to the post box that is at the top of the park?
- does the Sacred Heart Italian Church have anything to do with it?
- "in truth be free" - confession? (a massive stretch)
This is all based on the idea that Preiss wanted us to walk around the major sites of Boston - Copley Square up through the Commons and along the Freedom Trail.
But how is the painting tied to Boston at all???
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
gMan, I just ran into your post on a search today. I've been looking at Boston research for the last few days and can't believe how much incredible research has been done all these years. I just wish I would have known about "The Secret" when I was in Boston for Christmas week.
I like the idea of down the stairs at Mother's Rest by the Boylston St Bridge. Face the water with your back to the stairs sure sounds like you'd feel at home in Mother's Rest. But I look at the numbers 18 and 12 like this. The 12 is representing North and depending just how close that bridge is (and I can't tell from what I've seen) to the stairs, you take 18 paces to the North. That street light (lamp light) on the bridge will show you the area to target depending on the shadow. But what might make that more difficult is the maturity of the trees/bushes in that area today. Would be targeting over near that graffiti on the bridge in this photo:
https://www2.bing.com/images/search?vie ... ajaxhist=0
What really caught my attention today was when looking down at the monument, you can clearly see how the shape of the pavers that create the overall monument area including the benches and curb are identical to Erin's hair in Image 11.
The emerald being held by the fairy could indicate that the casque is located to the North of her hair, when read in conjunction with the Verse.
https://www2.bing.com/images/search?vie ... ajaxhist=0
Have some of the Boston Searchers dug over by this area of the Boylston Bridge?
I like where you are going with this, however we have to be careful with what we see today. I think the area around the O-Reilly statue has been renovated since 1982. Although, when I proposed my solve, I mentioned stand at the base of the stairs and 18 something, 12 something. It takes being there and looking around. The fact that there a resemblance between the arch of the bridge and the semi circle in Image 11 is enticing. I think when spring comes around, it will be easier for people like Bingo to scout and probe the area.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
So here's my bizarre brained logic - the clues aren't meant to be ready line by line but are usually mixed up a bit with random clues thrown in some odd places so this is out of order:
- "Eighteenth day twelfth hour lit by lamplight" (meant to be a general clue to Paul Revere?)
- "If X is north of T" (start at Boston Public Library)
- "In the area of his direction" it seems from the other puzzles, Preiss wanted people to walk and explore (the Chicago clues took you straight down one road until you found more clues which were "M and B are etched in stone" - you were then supposed to wander in search of more clues) - walking towards Paul Revere's house would take you through the Boston Common and onto the Freedom Trail ("in truth be free" hint?)
- "all the letters are here to see" - pass the Latin School at 45 School Street (oldest public school where Ben Franklin went) which has a plaque on the ground with the alphabet
hxxp://bostonlitdistrict.org/venue/site ... in-school/
. Here's the map in Google maps (hope the link works):
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.357805, ... 312!8i6656
- the Freedom Trail eventually takes you up to Paul Revere's House
- "Near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls" - his house is right over the Sumner Tunnel that goes to TD Garden
- "Take five steps" - if you take five steps out of Paul Revere's house (5 blocks in the crosswalk?), it take you to the North Square park (a stretch I know)
- "A green tower of lights" - the green building at the top of the park??
- "In the middle section" - the North Square Park??
- the street is called Moon Street (there's a moon in the painting) - there used to be a bookstore there called Globe Corner Books (globe in the painting)
- "Face the water your back to the stairs" - was there a water fountain in the round flower bed in 1982? - back to the stairs of the brownstone next to the green tower?
- could "all the letters" be reference to the post box that is at the top of the park?
- does the Sacred Heart Italian Church have anything to do with it?
- "in truth be free" - confession? (a massive stretch)
This is all based on the idea that Preiss wanted us to walk around the major sites of Boston - Copley Square up through the Commons and along the Freedom Trail.
But how is the painting tied to Boston at all???
I like thinking outside the box, but there are actually quite a few visual clues in the image that have been discussed in both the wiki page and here. If you have not seen the wiki, it's worth a visit.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86303044/Image%2011
Haarstick
I've read everything on Wiki and I like the visual clues but none of them say "this is 100% it" to me. The Chicago Water Tower was 100% - the Cleveland Tower was 100% - even the shape of the state of Florida for St. Augustine - but I just don't have that a-ha moment with the Boston images. Yes she looks like Columbus but if the casque is in the Back Bay Fens, that statue is really far. And it's not a recognizable feature of Boston.
I do like the idea of starting at the library, heading down Boylston to the O'Reilly statue and going behind it to Mother's Rest but people have been looking for years and haven't found that one telltale image that lines up. Someone just went to Mother's Rest and posted some pictures but nothing concrete came of it unfortunately but I still like Back Bay Fens too.
The solved puzzles had that clear piece of evidence - I just wish we had it for Boston.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
I've read everything on Wiki and I like the visual clues but none of them say "this is 100% it" to me. The Chicago Water Tower was 100% - the Cleveland Tower was 100% - even the shape of the state of Florida for St. Augustine - but I just don't have that a-ha moment with the Boston images. Yes she looks like Columbus but if the casque is in the Back Bay Fens, that statue is really far. And it's not a recognizable feature of Boston.
I do like the idea of starting at the library, heading down Boylston to the O'Reilly statue and going behind it to Mother's Rest but people have been looking for years and haven't found that one telltale image that lines up. Someone just went to Mother's Rest and posted some pictures but nothing concrete came of it unfortunately but I still like Back Bay Fens too.
The solved puzzles had that clear piece of evidence - I just wish we had it for Boston.
The woman in Image 11 looks like Dolly Parton, not Columbus. But, I digress...
Haarstick
LOL! True. Maybe it's at Dollywood.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
LOL! True. Maybe it's at Dollywood.
I looked.
Anyway, I want to believe that Dolly looks pregnant in the Image. That would seal the deal for me.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I've read everything on Wiki and I like the visual clues but none of them say "this is 100% it" to me. The Chicago Water Tower was 100% - the Cleveland Tower was 100% - even the shape of the state of Florida for St. Augustine - but I just don't have that a-ha moment with the Boston images. Yes she looks like Columbus but if the casque is in the Back Bay Fens, that statue is really far. And it's not a recognizable feature of Boston.
I do like the idea of starting at the library, heading down Boylston to the O'Reilly statue and going behind it to Mother's Rest but people have been looking for years and haven't found that one telltale image that lines up. Someone just went to Mother's Rest and posted some pictures but nothing concrete came of it unfortunately but I still like Back Bay Fens too.
The solved puzzles had that clear piece of evidence - I just wish we had it for Boston.
In addition to the clear piece of evidence for the city, i the other two had a clear image depicted of EXACTLY where the casque was. Not saying same goes for all, but one might think so...
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
Chicago didn't. It wasn't exactly at the fence post but further away by some arbitrary landmark like a tree that has now been razed.
In fact, it was so inexact that the solvers dug for a year before finding it
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
I looked.
Anyway, I want to believe that Dolly looks pregnant in the Image. That would seal the deal for me.
Hahaha Dolly... that's right, you said that a while back. Another part of the n end rabbit hole was this...me thinking the bird's raised foot matched Paul's horse.
https://imgur.com/a/jc2O1
Haarstick
I can totally see that in the foot. That bird is going to drive me crazy. It has to be somewhere. I know there's a similar statue in the courtyard of the Isabella Gardner Museum but it's not exact and the other clues all seemed to be outside (on a building, on a statue, etc) - not in a museum.
I still really want to check out Mother's Rest and the North Square Park. Wish there were images from the 80s of those areas.
In the meantime, I'll book a ticket to Dollywood.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I can totally see that in the foot. That bird is going to drive me crazy. It has to be somewhere. I know there's a similar statue in the courtyard of the Isabella Gardner Museum but it's not exact and the other clues all seemed to be outside (on a building, on a statue, etc) - not in a museum.
I still really want to check out Mother's Rest and the North Square Park. Wish there were images from the 80s of those areas.
In the meantime, I'll book a ticket to Dollywood.
hahaha...dollywood! i was all around the mothers rest and the whole fens area a few weeks ago..but i also want to go back. i can take a bunch of pics of north sq tomorrow when it's light out. i know the little park near the flowerbed area, pretty much across from paul reveres house, was just completely renovated this summer, with full concrete over the entire thing. it was a tarred area before. if anywhere around there, would have to be in that circle in the flower bed area. it is so lush with flowers in the summer and just a dirt patch in the winter..i feel like it would be difficult if the flowers were in full bloom...well...maybe no..i just have been looking at it every day as a dirt patch lately..i will see what pics i can find of the summer, to see if there would even be a spot for him to bury it in there. there are somewhat decent aerial images from 78 of mothers rest in
https://www.historicaerials.com/https:/ ... rials.com/
strike13
strike13 wrote::
hahaha...dollywood! i was all around the mothers rest and the whole fens area a few weeks ago..but i also want to go back. i can take a bunch of pics of north sq tomorrow when it's light out. i know the little park near the flowerbed area, pretty much across from paul reveres house, was just completely renovated this summer, with full concrete over the entire thing. it was a tarred area before. if anywhere around there, would have to be in that circle in the flower bed area. it is so lush with flowers in the summer and just a dirt patch in the winter..i feel like it would be difficult if the flowers were in full bloom...well...maybe no..i just have been looking at it every day as a dirt patch lately..i will see what pics i can find of the summer, to see if there would even be a spot for him to bury it in there. there are somewhat decent aerial images from 78 of mothers rest in
https://www.historicaerials.com/https:/ ... rials.com/
and...this would make sense with the wharfs int he hair to the right, because that is exactly where they are in relation to north sq
Haarstick
I'd love to see pics of North Square! It would such a tough place for him to bury something but maybe in 1982 it was just grass? Right across from a huge historical site (Paul Revere's house) seems risky but maybe he could have done it at night? And check out the letters near the old public school (near the Ben Franklin statue) - curious how it lays out with the Freedom Trail. Could he have sent people down the Freedom Trail? If he was really into history and getting people to explore it makes sense. I love researching things so send any ideas my way! This has been a blast but incredibly frustrating!
MrBackstop
gMan
Yes, it was rebuilt and introduced in 1982. So it would have been in process well before that and from what I understand it was barely moved to make room for Boylston to be widened. I'm sure our Boston members would know more details than what I could find in an old article. Also, when it was moved it had the same set up as it does today.
So the point is, if it was that close and the solve can still lead us down those stairs, then we still have an interesting area to search near the bridge. And yes the visual of seeing the bridge reflect off the water and form a circle is what caught my attention....looks very similar to the circle behind Erin.
Haarstick
Here's a detailed map of the Freedom Trail - as you can see it goes by both the alphabet plaque and Paul Revere's house. I'd love to be able to rule out North Square Park just to get it out of my head.
hxxp://www.thefreedomtrail.org/freedom-trail/maps.shtml
Does anyone know if there are any other stairs in the Back Bay Fens besides the ones near the O'Reilly statue?
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Does anyone know if there are any other stairs in the Back Bay Fens besides the ones near the O'Reilly statue?
That's what I'm trying to figure out. If there were stairs somewhere that were removed to be ADA compliant, or perhaps there are some in other area of the park.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
That's what I'm trying to figure out. If there were stairs somewhere that were removed to be ADA compliant, or perhaps there are some in other area of the park.
Not to my recollection when I walked alllll around there a few weeks ago, but I will definitely go back soon to do some scouting.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
Here's a detailed map of the Freedom Trail - as you can see it goes by both the alphabet plaque and Paul Revere's house. I'd love to be able to rule out North Square Park just to get it out of my head.
hxxp://www.thefreedomtrail.org/freedom-trail/maps.shtml
Does anyone know if there are any other stairs in the Back Bay Fens besides the ones near the O'Reilly statue?
Hahaha...I am right there with you...I want to rule out the N End too...I have thought for a while that if it ever were to be the north end, coming from that side of the freedom trail, then i would say the green tower of lights is the old elevated 93, running through the middle.
I am still much more drawn to the fens theory, but i love entertaining and researching all, it is fun
Haarstick
I've been looking at this site
https://www.mapjunction.com/
that has aerial images from 1978 and 1995 of Mother's Rest (and all of Boston). You can lay the 1995 and present day maps next to each other (you guys have probably already seen these) but the 1995 image doesn't show stairs and the 1978 is too blurry. There was a building near where the playground is now. Maybe there were stairs that led to the building and we're all looking at the wrong staircase?
I looked specifically at the 1995 Boston Aerial Map vs the most recent.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I've been looking at this site
https://www.mapjunction.com/
that has aerial images from 1978 and 1995 of Mother's Rest (and all of Boston). You can lay the 1995 and present day maps next to each other (you guys have probably already seen these) but the 1995 image doesn't show stairs and the 1978 is too blurry. There was a building near where the playground is now. Maybe there were stairs that led to the building and we're all looking at the wrong staircase?
I looked specifically at the 1995 Boston Aerial Map vs the most recent.
good idea with the stairs being at that old building...i like to look at the 1978 mages because i feel like those are closest to how it looked at the time. i wonder what the building was used for? i saw it in the 50s images too
Haarstick
I just found this out - the O'Reilly statue was completely relocated to where it is now in 1982. Read this (notes below):
https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_doc ... -20783.pdf
In 1982 major changes were again introduced to the Back Bay Fens:
Agassiz Road was narrowed and a new curb and sidwalk installed.
The rotary at the Westland Avenue Entrance was removed, changing
the pattern of traffic and returning some land to park use.
The southern portion of The Fenway was narrowed. New walks, curbs
and trees were added.
The Boylston Street intersection was entirely rebuilt. In addition
to the relocation of the John Boyle O'Reilly statue, new walks were
installed and The Fenway widened.
Boylston Street has also been widened, the median strip removed and
a new traffic pattern to the Bowker Overpass put into effect.
So the landmarks we've been looking at were in different locations and may have looked different and the staircase may not have even been there in 1981 when he likely buried the casque. Am I reading this all correctly???
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
good idea with the stairs being at that old building...i like to look at the 1978 mages because i feel like those are closest to how it looked at the time. i wonder what the building was used for? i saw it in the 50s images too
The structure was an open picnic shelter. Removed in the mid 80s or so.
Haarstick
What about the Roberto Clemente fieldhouse and bleachers? There's a picture of them from the late 70s at the end of that document. Are they still there? I've never seen them and they look like a castle in a way.....
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
What about the Roberto Clemente fieldhouse and bleachers? There's a picture of them from the late 70s at the end of that document. Are they still there? I've never seen them and they look like a castle in a way.....
I like that too. The structure was mostly removed, only a bit of it remains. You can see it in Street View.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Here's a detailed map of the Freedom Trail - as you can see it goes by both the alphabet plaque and Paul Revere's house. I'd love to be able to rule out North Square Park just to get it out of my head.
hxxp://www.thefreedomtrail.org/freedom-trail/maps.shtml
Does anyone know if there are any other stairs in the Back Bay Fens besides the ones near the O'Reilly statue?
The other stairs that I can see, are part of the Winged Victory monument. It is possible, although I think unlikely, that if you put your back to the statue and face the water, that puts you facing anywhere from north to east, since the water wraps around. Then you have to decipher the 12 and 18 clues to find a dig spot.
BINGO
After reading through 130+ pages of posts in this thread AND using the search function to make sure I didn’t miss it, how has one of the most iconic bars in the history of Boston never been mentioned?
The CASK n flagon is across the street from Fenway Park. It has been in the same place since 1969 and still open today. I am slightly ashamed of myself for just thinking of this.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
After reading through 130+ pages of posts in this thread AND using the search function to make sure I didn’t miss it, how has one of the most iconic bars in the history of Boston never been mentioned?
The CASK n flagon is across the street from Fenway Park. It has been in the same place since 1969 and still open today. I am slightly ashamed of myself for just thinking of this.
cask n flagon...
green dargon
bell in hand...
just to name the most historical
MrBackstop
gManTexas wrote::
The structure was an open picnic shelter. Removed in the mid 80s or so.
I just looked at those maps too from 1978 Haarstick. And gMan, it's like I said yesterday the monument was just moved across to where it is now from the traffic island. It doesn't change any of our thoughts to this point concerning the stairs. I see what appears to be stairs in the same spot.
Now with the Boylston Bridge still being the target let me throw this at you. Erin ( Our statue woman ) is in front of this side of the bridge. The circle behind her is the opening above the water and the reflection connected. It represents the water view you would see. The stone around it is the bridge and some reflection of the bridge.
If you look loosely at the lighter circle within the water circle, you see the top half is highlighted and the bottom isn't.....you can notice as it comes into view in your brain that that is the opening of the other side of the bridge and its reflection on the river.
The star behind her head in the circle represents the Huge Celtic Cross that is behind her on the statue (other side of the Boyle O'reilly monument).
Now here is something interesting concerning the number 18 and 12 with the bridge.
You notice the half moons and globe in Image 11. These represent the half circles on top of the bridge of the main leg supports. Check it out on Google Earth. What I really find interesting is that if you count the stones across the railing of the bridge (not including the end cap stone) the 18th stone is in the curve of these main leg supports. Also, I believe in Image 11, the the bottom half circle with the lighter and darker colors represents the stones under the bridge. That's why it's the bottom half circle.
The fairy holding the jewel is showing us that the jewel is to the right of the opening of the Boylston Bridge. If you stand facing the river with your back to the stairs and turn to go North (12 O'clock") until you get to the 18th stone on the top railing in that first Half Circle Leg, you should be able to line that 18th stone with wherever the light from the Lamp creates a shadow on the ground and we have our target.
What do you think?
strike13
I am curious on the thoughts of the design on her left cuff. I've been dwelling on this for a while. Part of me thinks it looks like the old old school red sox logo sock, touching home plate.
erexere
strike13 wrote::
I am curious on the thoughts of the design on her left cuff. I've been dwelling on this for a while. Part of me thinks it looks like the old old school red sox logo sock, touching home plate.
I am convinced it is a home plate.
Haarstick
If it is home plate then could the old field house at Back Bay Fens make sense? There used to be another set of bleachers on the water side of the field and the field house has been greatly renovated since 1980. Maybe "feel at home" means stand at home plate? If you look towards the field house you might be able to see the tower for the Orthodox church across the street? Maybe that view is similar to the image in the box? There wasn't a lot of lighting on the field back then so "lit by lamplight" could have pointed to one particular spot. But five steps towards whose direction???? There is a small statue of Roberto Clemente that I think is shaped like a home plate but was it there in 1980? More questions......
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
If it is home plate then could the old field house at Back Bay Fens make sense? There used to be another set of bleachers on the water side of the field and the field house has been greatly renovated since 1980. Maybe "feel at home" means stand at home plate? If you look towards the field house you might be able to see the tower for the Orthodox church across the street? Maybe that view is similar to the image in the box? There wasn't a lot of lighting on the field back then so "lit by lamplight" could have pointed to one particular spot. But five steps towards whose direction???? There is a small statue of Roberto Clemente that I think is shaped like a home plate but was it there in 1980? More questions......
That's a possibility. Can you share the info or pics you found of the other bleachers? They do look like steps. Also, which set of bleachers was the home side?
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
That's a possibility. Can you share the info or pics you found of the other bleachers? They do look like steps. Also, which set of bleachers was the home side?
I just dont think it is any old home plate though, with the other design next to it. the old school red sox logo was more of a stocking style, like the design show next to it. but that field in the fens could be something. the roberto clement monument has been there since 73...i used to play softball on that field years ago...i'll take a walk over there sometime this weekend and do a little investigation.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
I just looked at those maps too from 1978 Haarstick. And gMan, it's like I said yesterday the monument was just moved across to where it is now from the traffic island. It doesn't change any of our thoughts to this point concerning the stairs. I see what appears to be stairs in the same spot.
Now with the Boylston Bridge still being the target let me throw this at you. Erin ( Our statue woman ) is in front of this side of the bridge. The circle behind her is the opening above the water and the reflection connected. It represents the water view you would see. The stone around it is the bridge and some reflection of the bridge.
If you look loosely at the lighter circle within the water circle, you see the top half is highlighted and the bottom isn't.....you can notice as it comes into view in your brain that that is the opening of the other side of the bridge and its reflection on the river.
The star behind her head in the circle represents the Huge Celtic Cross that is behind her on the statue (other side of the Boyle O'reilly monument).
Now here is something interesting concerning the number 18 and 12 with the bridge.
You notice the half moons and globe in Image 11. These represent the half circles on top of the bridge of the main leg supports. Check it out on Google Earth. What I really find interesting is that if you count the stones across the railing of the bridge (not including the end cap stone) the 18th stone is in the curve of these main leg supports. Also, I believe in Image 11, the the bottom half circle with the lighter and darker colors represents the stones under the bridge. That's why it's the bottom half circle.
The fairy holding the jewel is showing us that the jewel is to the right of the opening of the Boylston Bridge. If you stand facing the river with your back to the stairs and turn to go North (12 O'clock") until you get to the 18th stone on the top railing in that first Half Circle Leg, you should be able to line that 18th stone with wherever the light from the Lamp creates a shadow on the ground and we have our target.
What do you think?
Makes sense, maybe one of the Boston guys can check it out this weekend. It would be great to get photos from multiple angles, and possibly panoramic. The mother's rest area is not well photo documented. Maybe also head over to Clemente Field area in the same visit.
erexere
"Feel at home" is idiomatic for "make yourself comfortable" or "stay awhile". Taken to mean a baseball field, it could be a distance no more than an arm or a fair folk legs length in the direction of Boston's Fenway Park. I like the idea, but where do we take that measurement from?
Another thought, it could be directly relating to the falcon in the painting. Has it made itself comfortable on its perch? "Feel at home" would then mean we need to find that specific "perch" and then continue on to the next clue if that's not also the closest point to the dig spot. I like this idea even more. The waist high black wall of metal fencing at Charlesgate has "T" posts that look much like the falcon's perch.
I also like Longfellows Landlords Tale, but that's a given with the 12th hour 18th day lines.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Makes sense, maybe one of the Boston guys can check it out this weekend. It would be great to get photos from multiple angles, and possibly panoramic. The mother's rest area is not well photo documented. Maybe also head over to Clemente Field area in the same visit.
These are taken at the base of the bridge pillar/bump out. I was there yesterday to scope it out for Mr.B. (He is correct, the bump outs are 18 cap stones from the end of the bridge.)
I got caught in traffic this morning so I didn’t have time to investigate where the street light casts its light at dark.
If the casque is/was in this area, let’s hope it was put on the high side of the fence. Major river level fluctuations have done a number on the bank.
https://flic.kr/p/Gf6YXm
https://flic.kr/p/EHR3Cz
This resident was feeling at home right next to Gman’s prospective spot. I thought he might be dead, just a heavy sleeper.
https://flic.kr/p/EHR3B2
strike13
erexere wrote::
"Feel at home" is idiomatic for "make yourself comfortable" or "stay awhile". Taken to mean a baseball field, it could be a distance no more than an arm or a fair folk legs length in the direction of Boston's Fenway Park. I like the idea, but where do we take that measurement from?
Another thought, it could be directly relating to the falcon in the painting. Has it made itself comfortable on its perch? "Feel at home" would then mean we need to find that specific "perch" and then continue on to the next clue if that's not also the closest point to the dig spot. I like this idea even more. The waist high black wall of metal fencing at Charlesgate has "T" posts that look much like the falcon's perch.
I also like Longfellows Landlords Tale, but that's a given with the 12th hour 18th day lines.
Could be feel at home, as in the purpose of a hotel as well as landlord's tale. Somerset Hotel.
erexere
I can't believe I never thought of that before.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
These are taken at the base of the bridge pillar/bump out. I was there yesterday to scope it out for Mr.B. (He is correct, the bump outs are 18 cap stones from the end of the bridge.)
I got caught in traffic this morning so I didn’t have time to investigate where the street light casts its light at dark.
If the casque is/was in this area, let’s hope it was put on the high side of the fence. Major river level fluctuations have done a number on the bank.
https://flic.kr/p/Gf6YXm
https://flic.kr/p/EHR3Cz
This resident was feeling at home right next to Gman’s prospective spot. I thought he might be dead, just a heavy sleeper.
https://flic.kr/p/EHR3B2
What about it being on the opposite side of that same bridge...the boylston st stone bridge. More to the Ipswich street side. Ipswich could also be used for the final clue..in truth be free, as the town of Ipswich's town seal signifies Ipswich as the “Birthplace of American Independence”
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Could be feel at home, as in the purpose of a hotel as well as landlord's tale. Somerset Hotel.
Great thinking! Could it also be the Charlesgate Hotel?
erexere
I don't think so. There's nothing that really says Charles gate a specifically as the Somerset is mentioned in the poem, though it mentions the Charles river.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
"Feel at home" is idiomatic for "make yourself comfortable" or "stay awhile". Taken to mean a baseball field, it could be a distance no more than an arm or a fair folk legs length in the direction of Boston's Fenway Park. I like the idea, but where do we take that measurement from?
Another thought, it could be directly relating to the falcon in the painting. Has it made itself comfortable on its perch? "Feel at home" would then mean we need to find that specific "perch" and then continue on to the next clue if that's not also the closest point to the dig spot. I like this idea even more. The waist high black wall of metal fencing at Charlesgate has "T" posts that look much like the falcon's perch.
I also like Longfellows Landlords Tale, but that's a given with the 12th hour 18th day lines.
If we consider the Landlord's Tale for a moment:
One, if by land, and two, if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Can this be our clues tied to the verse?
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
Eighteenth = 6:00 or south direction from stairs.
Twelfth = 12 = 1 by land, 2 by sea. 1 something toward land, 2 something toward water?
LIt by lamplight
Or possibly we should be looking on the opposite shore by the victory gardens?
Haarstick
Here's a great aerial video of the gardens and Mother's Rest! Gives some good perspective although it seems very recent.
Looking for the old filed house pics now....
https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip ... Ug:1:19/gg
Haarstick
And here's the PDF doc with notes and old pictures re: renovations to the Fens from 1983 - so these pictures are very close to what Preiss actually saw. The field house castle-like features aren't like the painting's though. But the document is an interesting read as to what was changed after 1983.
https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_doc ... -20783.pdf
erexere
gManTexas,
It's really tough to say how Preiss means us to apply the Landlords Tale...if there is any application at all. Could be used any number of ways.
Haarstick
Interesting find.....on page 55 of this book there is a note by the author that when standing just outside the gardens at the corner of Boylston and Park, you can see Fenway's lights (green tower of lights). If you then turn around and walk towards the gardens (all the letters are here to see) you'd be right in the middle of the gardens (in the middle section). You'd be on Row X (which is north of row T) and you'd be facing the water. Looking at a 1978 aerial, the paths don't appear to have changed much. Not sure if they were lettered in 1980 but I think so. It's that "take 5 steps in the area of his direction" that always loses me.......
https://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2 ... 80&f=false
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
Interesting find.....on page 55 of this book there is a note by the author that when standing just outside the gardens at the corner of Boylston and Park, you can see Fenway's lights (green tower of lights). If you then turn around and walk towards the gardens (all the letters are here to see) you'd be right in the middle of the gardens (in the middle section). You'd be on Row X (which is north of row T) and you'd be facing the water. Looking at a 1978 aerial, the paths don't appear to have changed much. Not sure if they were lettered in 1980 but I think so. It's that "take 5 steps in the area of his direction" that always loses me.......
https://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2 ... 80&f=false
talks of home plate in the ground too a little bit further down, onto the next page.
Haarstick
strike13 wrote::
talks of home plate in the ground too a little bit further down, onto the next page.
There's a home plate/Cy Young memorial where the old baseball field used to be. It's now World Series Way on the Northeastern Campus.
hxxp://www.oldmetstadium.com/BosHuntington/index.html
BINGO
So, I have been struggling to find an Italian theme or connection for this image for a while. I know everyone is going to jump on me and say that the woman in the image looks like the Christopher Columbus statue in Boston. It doesn’t. I’ve looked at the statue a 100 times in person and I have shown the image to numerous people at the park. Almost everyone doesn’t see a resemblance while standing at the actual statue.
Here is one oddball Italian link that I did find. The orbs, balls, spheres in the picture reminded me of the cheesy garden decorative balls that you find randomly in people’s gardens.
Those are called (from Wikipedia) garden globes, yards globes and gazing balls. Their origin, in my opinion, loosely connects an Italian theme. “Gazing balls originated in 13th century Venice, Italy, where they were hand-blown by skilled craftsmen”.
If people don’t follow what I am talking about, they look like this. I wonder if the victory gardens had these kicking around at some point back then.
https://flic.kr/p/24nmTvo
Any thoughts or other Italian connections that people feel are relevant?
erexere
The Folletti. Italian elves. They like causing mischief and rearranging objects.
This looked interesting.
hxxp://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/224.htm
BINGO
erexere wrote::
The Folletti. Italian elves. They like causing mischief and rearranging objects.
This looked interesting.
hxxp://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/224.htm
This is an interesting story, but what does it have to do with either image or verse? I read it twice and I’m definitely missing something.
erexere
Probably nothing. I just noticed the Italian folk tale had the word "true" in its title and the numbers 18 and 12 in the story. It's not relevant to any serious degree.
BINGO
erexere wrote::
Probably nothing. I just noticed the Italian folk tale had the word "true" in its title and the numbers 18 and 12 in the story. It's not relevant to any serious degree.
I can see a loose connection to the verse. I’m trying to struggle through image issues. It seems like the majority of the proposed solutions rely solely on the verse. Many of those solutions can and have been argued without using the image at all.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
I’m trying to struggle through image issues
Good for you - the picture leads you specifically to the city and then to the start of the verse
then at the casque site there will pictures comfirming you are at the correct site.
Demonstrated in both cleveland and chicago.
BINGO
Here is another spitball possible image connection.
The balls, globes, spheres in the image also remind me of a van de graaff generator. This is one of those round electrified balls that when you touch it, static electricity makes your hair stand up. (Much like our lady in the image.)
Here is what one of those looks like.
https://flic.kr/p/24nFwyW
One would ask what that has to do with Boston? Two things.
The largest van der graaff generator ever built is a popular exhibit at the Boston Museum of Science. It has been there for decades and I remember watching the lightning show there when I was a kid in the late 70’s and early 80’s.
The other connection to Boston is the inventor himself. Robert Van Der Graaff was a teacher and possibly a student at MIT. Before the generator went to the museum, it was used at MIT for power generation projects and countless electrical experiments.
I don’t think this is earth shattering news, nor do I have any image “confirmers” that proves this is important to a solution. I just hope this might spark a memory or a conversation that might lead to an important image discovery.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
this might spark a memory
Pun intended I hope!
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Pun intended I hope!
You were one of the two people that I expected to catch that...
erexere
Im a believer. Didn't know there was a local connection to van de Graff. Good job.
Haarstick
I've been struggling with trying to find a Boston image/connection in the painting as well. She doesn't look like Columbus (kind of but not enough to say absolutely that's the clue) - there is no MA state image, no definite building silhouette, no statue silhouette, no windmill=windy city reference, nothing. The poem gives more clues but per Chicago and Cleveland, that's not how those puzzles worked.
The 42 seems to be the biggest clue and that would lead us to Boston but maybe it's another city with a latitude of 42. I looked at some of the 42 cities per this list but nothing clicked.
https://cs.nyu.edu/visual/home/proj/tig ... ng_us.html
. Do you see any cities that may work? Does the city have to be on water?
catherwood
Haarstick wrote::
Does the city have to be on water?
It wouldn't necessarily be along a coast, but port cities are the most common for immigration. If you want to pick a new location, consider whether it had an influx of settlers, or a significant population from another country or culture.
JamesV
Haarstick wrote::
I've been struggling with trying to find a Boston image/connection in the painting as well.
Earlier in this thread, someone else pointed out that the numbers configured as lat/long matches for Boston could also be rearranged to indicate Salt Lake City. I've been looking into a few other cities as well, based on state outlines in the Image. Although I'm still not fully convinced that the I11 casque is in Boston, I still catch myself searching online for statues, gates and historical markers in Cambridge.
maltedfalcon
There is that pesky SLC in the painting....
I think it is boston
but when you look at the cities on the map they sure are east coast centric.
You would think there would be more than one out west.
So it is a possibility
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
You would think there would be more than one out west.
There are. Including the two that have already been found, only 9 casques were buried east of the Mississippi River. Two were buried "out west" of the Mississippi River, and one was buried both east and west of the Mississippi River.
Hope that clears things up.
Haarstick
But should we be looking at the 42 as a locater? As in 42 latitude? Or is this 42 just completely throwing us off?
erexere
I wonder about the "take five steps / In the area of his direction" line. The 4 and the 2 are on separate panels of her cuff. Perhaps that's an instruction to go 4 steps in one direction and turn to go 2 steps. Wouldn't that be about 5 steps if the last leg makes a triangle?
E: 4.47 steps
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
As in 42 latitude?
Seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
There are. Including the two that have already been found, only 9 casques were buried east of the Mississippi River. Two were buried "out west" of the Mississippi River, and one was buried both east and west of the Mississippi River.
Hope that clears things up.
Sorry for mis-communicating, As a native Californian, I pretty much consider the Mississippi to be out east... and the Continental divide through the Rockies as the division of east and west. but in this case I noting this discrepancy and that I thought there would be more to the left side than just one..
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I thought there would be more to the left side than just one.
Probably because Preiss said that there was a casque within "reasonable" driving distance for every person in the United States and Canada. I think we can pretty much agree that is not likely either. I'm comfortable with the fact that the casque cities are East-coast centric, mostly because that is consistent with the immigration theme of the overall puzzle.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Probably because Preiss said that there was a casque within "reasonable" driving distance for every person in the United States and Canada. I think we can pretty much agree that is not likely either. I'm comfortable with the fact that the casque cities are East-coast centric, mostly because that is consistent with the immigration theme of the overall puzzle.
So nobody lives in idaho or montana.... then
I still believe in Boston, but there is reasonable doubt to support a Salt Lake City Casque. Its been discussed before.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
No, no one does. I'll believe it when I see it.
The notion that all casques are within a "reasonable drive of each other" is pure salesmanship. There's no way you can posittion 12 casques and have every city in the continental U.S. be within, say, 500 miles of at least one.
MrBackstop
I guess that depends on what your definition of "reasonable" is.
BINGO
The frost is basically eradicated in Boston after a couple of 70 degree days. I have a couple of spots to revisit and further investigate for other members. If anyone has a theory that they would like ground tested, fire away.
We must hurry before one of the crackpot theorists actually hit the plexiglass and ceramic lottery.
strike13
How about the bird's claw being castle island...i inverted the map to match the direction of the claw.
https://imgur.com/a/xExrm
Would bring this to another area, in southie. Lots match up. Castle. Castle island. Island. "I land", Columbus. Ok maybe that part was dumb, i land. Haha. Ft independence on castle island, be free. Just another thought...more to come. Just exploring all options and sharing the thoughts
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
How about the bird's claw being castle island...i inverted the map to match the direction of the claw.
https://imgur.com/a/xExrm
Would bring this to another area, in southie. Lots match up. Castle. Castle island. Island. "I land", Columbus. Ok maybe that part was dumb, i land. Haha. Ft independence on castle island, be free. Just another thought...more to come. Just exploring all options and sharing the thoughts
idk if you linked to the wrong thing, but this is a huge map of boston area, Image 11, then a reversed map of the boston area.
Maybe I just don't understand. Can you open mspaint and just crop to the areas you say are a match?
strike13
drunknerds wrote::
idk if you linked to the wrong thing, but this is a huge map of boston area, Image 11, then a reversed map of the boston area.
Maybe I just don't understand. Can you open mspaint and just crop to the areas you say are a match?
The castle island area is the same shape as the bird's clae, talon, what have you. Matches if you either invert the bird or the map. I see other parts of the shoreline line up too. Not a ton of time to draw it out, but this is where I'm coming from
https://imgur.com/a/IOCWk
Open it up and maps too...the shape is exact to the claw
strike13
strike13 wrote::
The castle island area is the same shape as the bird's clae, talon, what have you. Matches if you either invert the bird or the map. I see other parts of the shoreline line up too. Not a ton of time to draw it out, but this is where I'm coming from
https://imgur.com/a/IOCWk
Open it up and maps too...the shape is exact to the claw
On Day Blvd....could be another 18th day reference..Day Boulevard was originally called the Strandway,[3] and was planned beginning in the late nineteenth century as the easternmost link of the Emerald Necklace, the string of connected parks and waterways created by Frederick Law Olmsted.[4][5]
The area of 18 Day blvd is just outside of castle island, in a park. fort independence also on castle island, be free. there are a lot of connections to this area i thought so very little about before. i truly think it is worth looking more into....and i have only just started to divert my attention this way. three is something to it in my opinion, this would tie in the wharf like appearance of her hair.
gManTexas
strike13, work through it, make some connections and see where it takes you.
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
The castle island area is the same shape as the bird's clae, talon, what have you. Matches if you either invert the bird or the map. I see other parts of the shoreline line up too. Not a ton of time to draw it out, but this is where I'm coming from
https://imgur.com/a/IOCWk
Open it up and maps too...the shape is exact to the claw
Maybe. To me, the top part of the bird's claw is too curled and the left part of castle island is too curled.
What are those bridge-like things sticking out from the coast on the Southeast part of that?
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
How about the bird's claw being castle island...i inverted the map to match the direction of the claw.
https://imgur.com/a/xExrm
Would bring this to another area, in southie. Lots match up. Castle. Castle island. Island. "I land", Columbus. Ok maybe that part was dumb, i land. Haha. Ft independence on castle island, be free. Just another thought...more to come. Just exploring all options and sharing the thoughts
At one point, I was optimistic about castle island actually being attached to image 3.
The fort is shaped like a pentagon, very similar to the outline that would be created if you connected the two bells, the key, the watch and the bubble on the right side of Image 3. The hook shape on the left side of the image is also similar to the outline of castle island/pleasure bay. Unfortunately, I was unable to make any other solid connections with image 3 or image 11 while on the ground at castle island.
There are a few statues and memorials all around the fort, nothing that really jumped out at me. However, the fort was closed the couple of times that I went there and I never got to see anything that might be inside.
By all means, check it out. Fresh eyes on the place may yield something important that I missed. When you go, try to see if there is anything interesting inside the fort itself.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
At one point, I was optimistic about castle island actually being attached to image 3.
The fort is shaped like a pentagon, very similar to the outline that would be created if you connected the two bells, the key, the watch and the bubble on the right side of Image 3. The hook shape on the left side of the image is also similar to the outline of castle island/pleasure bay. Unfortunately, I was unable to make any other solid connections with image 3 or image 11 while on the ground at castle island.
There are a few statues and memorials all around the fort, nothing that really jumped out at me. However, the fort was closed the couple of times that I went there and I never got to see anything that might be inside.
By all means, check it out. Fresh eyes on the place may yield something important that I missed. When you go, try to see if there is anything interesting inside the fort itself.
So crazy, I have lived in the north end for about 20 yrs and have never been to castle island. i always just go to the north shore when i head to the beach. I want to go look all around...as seeing from ground level is suuuper important. maybe ill head there this weekend if it is nice out. certainly wont be 70 and awesome like it was the past few days, but i am eager to check it out and i will take photos etc...i am so busy at work today, but i also want to read a little on this history of castle island. at one point i had read somewhere about the fort having something to do with the stamp act, which could maybe be a reference to all the letters. i need to research more, stay tuned
strike13
https://imgur.com/a/HzXIP
So basically i think the bird represents Boston, but in a mirrored or inverted image. The bar the bird is standing on is William Morrissey blvd and 92 is the larger part of it's down pointing wing/tail. You can even see the bos harbor islands in the image 11. I just thought this was be a better visual than i had posted prior. Now the verse...
If anyone thinks this idea is way out there, sorry, better than saying it's slc at least haha
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
https://imgur.com/a/HzXIP
So basically i think the bird represents Boston, but in a mirrored or inverted image. The bar the bird is standing on is William Morrissey blvd and 92 is the larger part of it's down pointing wing/tail. You can even see the bos harbor islands in the image 11. I just thought this was be a better visual than i had posted prior. Now the verse...
If anyone thinks this idea is way out there, sorry, better than saying it's slc at least haha
I don't think this is a bad idea at all. I see elements of the search area in overlays from Images, but they tend to point to multiple areas within the city that the casque is located. The claw may very well be Castle Island as both a visual clue to the city and to emphasize "castle" , but it doesn't have to be a contiguous area on the map with the rest of the bird. If you look at the spheres in Image 11, rotate your map in the Common until they line up.
Big sphere is Parkman Bandstand.
Sphere in front is Soldier and Sailors Monument.
Sphere all the way on the right is baseball infield.
Sphere near bird is Brewer Fountain.
Sphere at Dolly Parton's hip is round flower bed on Tremont.
These kind of overlays ground you in a city.
drunknerds
I like the theory that 18th day represents 18 day blvd, which is Joe Moakley Park
strike13
drunknerds wrote::
I like the theory that 18th day represents 18 day blvd, which is Joe Moakley Park
And Joe Moakley Park used to be called Columbus park until 2001....hmmmmm....even better
BINGO
drunknerds wrote::
I like the theory that 18th day represents 18 day blvd, which is Joe Moakley Park
Just a short distance from the Boston Globe, the Massachusetts Archives, JFK library, on and on and on.
I don’t like Boston anymore...
roughdraft274
Hey guys,
I'm not in Boston but did some quick digging and saw something that I'm curious if anyone has ever noticed. I think the two circle area is obviously related to the picture, but I don't see a dig clue near by. It's also not really referenced directly in the verse. So if we are there the verse goes:
All the letters
Are here to see
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
In truth, be free.
So the garden area near by is the letters. Eighteenth day, twelfth hour is an obvious reference to paul revere's ride on the eighteenth day.
"It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town."
It's telling us to look for a bridge. At the twelfth hour, he was crossing a bridge. If we continue past the two circles up charlesgate we get to commonwealth. Which might have been previously referenced in the verse. We turn left to face the bridge and you see this fencing stuff that looks like the lipped item on the bottom left of the image and the columns look incredibly similar to the item holding up the ball on the lower right. The bottom part of the fencing look like the trim that follows along the "N" (if you are using the grid picture) This is on the corner of Charlesgate E and Commonwealth. That's 3 things on the same fence that match the picture IMO. I only see them in this area, and there are a few with areas to dig next to. Maybe two or three areas. There might be other clues better seen in person. But I think this is a good match and matches up incredibly well with the verse. If someone walks them down and finds a crack matching the one from the picture or something like that, I think we find the casque here.
Sorry I didn't upload pics. Trying to type it up in a rush. If anyone could take a pic of the fence and post I would appreciate it. But Google Maps has good views of it.
BINGO
This is a picture of the bridge abutment near the 2C area. There has been some talk about the “4” shaped concrete joint that is created on the sidewalk around the base of the light pole. If you look at the picture where the circular border is stretched out to align with the sidewalk, the “4” doesn’t line up with the light pole location.
This “4” lines up very well with the stretched out circle. Also, it is original to the bridge and definitely pre-1981. The sidewalk and corresponding concrete joints are impossible to date. (And more than likely have been replaced since 1981)
https://flic.kr/p/23vuUPG
drunknerds
There's a park right there:
Where are these matches you are talking about, in relation to this viewpoint?
roughdraft274
drunknerds wrote::
There's a park right there:
Where are these matches you are talking about, in relation to this viewpoint?
Turn left instead of right. The other direction. It's a concrete wall, maybe 2 to 3 ft tall.
roughdraft274
Hopfully this makes it more clear.
strike13
https://imgur.com/a/ybhSa
This park is intriguing
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
https://imgur.com/a/ybhSa
This park is intriguing
There is a set of stairs near that park very close to the waters edge. The concrete railing looks very similar to the image in the book that has the character sitting with a shovel. The Citgo sign is clearly visible from that spot as well. It is an interesting area.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
There is a set of stairs near that park very close to the waters edge. The concrete railing looks very similar to the image in the book that has the character sitting with a shovel. The Citgo sign is clearly visible from that spot as well. It is an interesting area.
I did notice that. And again we have those similar sphere lamps, like in the CG area. Have you been by here yet Bingo? I want to check this spot and over by castle island/park/ft independence.
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
I did notice that. And again we have those similar sphere lamps, like in the CG area. Have you been by here yet Bingo? I want to check this spot and over by castle island/park/ft independence.
I spent multiple weeks in 2013 doing a complete topographic survey of the Charlesgate area for my work. That general area is unfortunately burned into my skull.
JamesV
maltedfalcon wrote::
There is that pesky SLC in the painting....
I think it is boston
but when you look at the cities on the map they sure are east coast centric.
You would think there would be more than one out west.
So it is a possibility
MF, need a second opinion here...does that "Utah" shaped brick in the top of the circle look more like Nebraska to you? I had a ton of homework to do last night, but instead chose to research landmarks around Omaha... (41 N lat, 95 W long)
drunknerds
Is there a name for it? I can't find one.
maltedfalcon
JamesV wrote::
MF, need a second opinion here...does that "Utah" shaped brick in the top of the circle look more like Nebraska to you? I had a ton of homework to do last night, but instead chose to research landmarks around Omaha... (41 N lat, 95 W long)
yes it looks much more like nebraska (assuming you bent it into a curve) than utah.
I don't think it's either I think it is a 4 on one side and a site confirmer image on the left side.
roughdraft274
This planter is located inside James P. Kelleher Rose Gardens. It's an insane resemblance and there are alot of other matches nearby. This just seems too uncanny. Need better pictures though. Wish I was in Boston, cause this is a big clue in my honest opinion. The casque might be buried right in front of it.
Has anyone posted this before?
fox
These are all very good finds roughdraft. I don't recall seeing many of them. Intriguing indeed.
WhiteRabbit
strike13 wrote::
https://imgur.com/a/ybhSa
This park is intriguing
Can you post the Google maps URL link to that...? Not sure where it is...
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Can you post the Google maps URL link to that...? Not sure where it is...
It is at the next intersection north of the 2c structure. Just a few hundred feet from the Leif Ericsson statue and across the street from it.
WhiteRabbit
...aha, OK.
Here
.
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...aha, OK.
Here
.
I do believe that is the spot strike13 is referring to.
WhiteRabbit
roughdraft274 wrote::
This planter is located inside James P. Kelleher Rose Gardens...Need better pictures though...Has anyone posted this before?
...yep, there's a set of close-ups
here
.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
I do believe that is the spot strike13 is referring to.
exactly what i was referring to. i did also find this interesting, this guy posted on the wiki that he and his wife walked through the fens area. what i find most intriguing is how he sees an image match to the shadow on her neck. that is another part of the image that has been forever bugging me. He claims that the outline of the muddy river, when walking over the footbridge into the rose garden has that exact shape, which cannot be seen so well through google maps. i will be doing another walk through of that soon as well to get some other photos. this is his post, i thought a few of the images were great matches.
My wife and I have been to site a few times now to take a look around and we believe we have made some connections to the image. One is of the shadow cast by her neck and the rivers edge near the foot bridge (much more noticeable in person than google earth);
https://imgur.com/08HqZ9M
. Another possible connection is to the women’s left shoulder and the left shoulder at the WWII monument (at least we think i looks similar);
https://imgur.com/2TKhclm
. The last one has to do with a bird perch located near the rose garden;
https://imgur.com/C8Pz1gS
&
https://imgur.com/Wgpv2YE
. We have found out that the bird perch is for a red tailed hawk family, however based on information from the Emerald Necklace Conservancy, it was installed in 2010 (but who’s to say it wasn’t a replacement). Unfortunately we were denied permission to probe from the Boston Parks Dept.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
exactly what i was referring to. i did also find this interesting, this guy posted on the wiki that he and his wife walked through the fens area. what i find most intriguing is how he sees an image match to the shadow on her neck. that is another part of the image that has been forever bugging me. He claims that the outline of the muddy river, when walking over the footbridge into the rose garden has that exact shape, which cannot be seen so well through google maps. i will be doing another walk through of that soon as well to get some other photos. this is his post, i thought a few of the images were great matches.
My wife and I have been to site a few times now to take a look around and we believe we have made some connections to the image. One is of the shadow cast by her neck and the rivers edge near the foot bridge (much more noticeable in person than google earth);
https://imgur.com/08HqZ9M
. Another possible connection is to the women’s left shoulder and the left shoulder at the WWII monument (at least we think i looks similar);
https://imgur.com/2TKhclm
. The last one has to do with a bird perch located near the rose garden;
https://imgur.com/C8Pz1gS
&
https://imgur.com/Wgpv2YE
. We have found out that the bird perch is for a red tailed hawk family, however based on information from the Emerald Necklace Conservancy, it was installed in 2010 (but who’s to say it wasn’t a replacement). Unfortunately we were denied permission to probe from the Boston Parks Dept.
These are great finds! Let me ask, can you post a static map of the match for the shadow on her neck? Or maybe just the exact coordinates, then I map it.
strike13
exactly what i was referring to. i did also find this interesting, this guy posted on the wiki that he and his wife walked through the fens area. what i find most intriguing is how he sees an image match to the shadow on her neck. that is another part of the image that has been forever bugging me. He claims that the outline of the muddy river, when walking over the footbridge into the rose garden has that exact shape, which cannot be seen so well through google maps. i will be doing another walk through of that soon as well to get some other photos. this is his post, i thought a few of the images were great matches.
My wife and I have been to site a few times now to take a look around and we believe we have made some connections to the image. One is of the shadow cast by her neck and the rivers edge near the foot bridge (much more noticeable in person than google earth);
https://imgur.com/08HqZ9M
. Another possible connection is to the women’s left shoulder and the left shoulder at the WWII monument (at least we think i looks similar);
https://imgur.com/2TKhclm
. The last one has to do with a bird perch located near the rose garden;
https://imgur.com/C8Pz1gS
&
https://imgur.com/Wgpv2YE
. We have found out that the bird perch is for a red tailed hawk family, however based on information from the Emerald Necklace Conservancy, it was installed in 2010 (but who’s to say it wasn’t a replacement). Unfortunately we were denied permission to probe from the Boston Parks Dept.[/quote]
These are great finds! Let me ask, can you post a static map of the match for the shadow on her neck? Or maybe just the exact coordinates, then I map it.[/quote]
that was the wiki guy's post...the second part i copied on the end...that is why i want to go there to photograph it myself so it is not viewed like that...
strike13
BINGO wrote::
There is a set of stairs near that park very close to the waters edge. The concrete railing looks very similar to the image in the book that has the character sitting with a shovel. The Citgo sign is clearly visible from that spot as well. It is an interesting area.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3499367 ... 312!8i6656
those stairs bingo?
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3499367 ... 312!8i6656
those stairs bingo?
Can someone get over there and take a bunch of photos? This could be worth following up on.
strike13
There is a set of stairs near that park very close to the waters edge. The concrete railing looks very similar to the image in the book that has the character sitting with a shovel. The Citgo sign is clearly visible from that spot as well. It is an interesting area.[/quote]
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3499367 ... 312!8i6656
those stairs bingo?[/quote]
Can someone get over there and take a bunch of photos? This could be worth following up on.[/quote]
i will tomorrow....
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3499367 ... 312!8i6656
those stairs bingo?
BINGO!!
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Can someone get over there and take a bunch of photos? This could be worth following up on.
erexere posted about this area quite some time ago. The outline of the brick pavers in the park area remind me of the general shape of the woman’s head and shoulders in the image. With the tree cover in that small park, really good aerial images were difficult to come by.
There are steps, water, the concrete railing, the light poles, multiple electrical boxes, the citgo sign and even a view of a building that has towers with a dome on the top. Lots of good stuff in that park.
Still nothing (in my opinion) that is photographic quality evidence that links it to the image.
roughdraft274
Has anyone spotted this before? Seems to be just as good of a match as that other round park. But the notches in the picture patch up with the notches in the park. It's right next to post office square also maybe referencing "see all the letters here to see"? Meaning letters being sent rather than alphabet?
strike13
roughdraft274 wrote::
Has anyone spotted this before? Seems to be just as good of a match as that other round park. But the notches in the picture patch up with the notches in the park. It's right next to post office square also maybe referencing "see all the letters here to see"? Meaning letters being sent rather than alphabet?
i like it! but i know that whole area of po sq was redone in about 95...there was a parking garage which was torn down and then rebuilt underground with a park on top...this parcel, however, still could have been there...
roughdraft274
strike13 wrote::
i like it! but i know that whole area of po sq was redone in about 95...there was a parking garage which was torn down and then rebuilt underground with a park on top...this parcel, however, still could have been there...
It's a crazy coincidence if so. It's remarkably similar, though they match that other park very well too.
drunknerds
roughdraft274 wrote::
It's a crazy coincidence if so. It's remarkably similar, though they match that other park very well too.
There was a fountain at Copley square with an arch just like the one behind the ladies head and a water stain exactly where the weird line is directly above her head. Built after 1982.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
There was a fountain at Copley square with an arch just like the one behind the ladies head and a water stain exactly where the weird line is directly above her head. Built after 1982.
That was wickedly a close match - it was exact...
drunknerds
Also, the boston not-so-exactly-matching legeaters are super weird. Was "goblin/dog eating a horse leg" some popular fad in statue-making?
strike13
drunknerds wrote::
Also, the boston not-so-exactly-matching legeaters are super weird. Was "goblin/dog eating a horse leg" some popular fad in statue-making?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.350131, ... 312!8i6656
back to the same spot again, the other charlesgate e, just past the lief statue on the left, near those stairs i just posted...i wonder what that patch of green is in the center is...and that big wooden thing, looks like tree trunk, but it is not, must investigate asap!
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Also, the boston not-so-exactly-matching legeaters are super weird. Was "goblin/dog eating a horse leg" some popular fad in statue-making?
yes it was georgian
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.350131, ... 312!8i6656
back to the same spot again, the other charlesgate e, just past the lief statue on the left, near those stairs i just posted...i wonder what that patch of green is in the center is...and that big wooden thing, looks like tree trunk, but it is not, must investigate asap!
Here are some photos of the small park, the stairway, and a look up and down the street as well. Check out the number 4 on the awning across the street.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/145409797 ... res/4q80Ap
strike13
BINGO wrote::
Here are some photos of the small park, the stairway, and a look up and down the street as well. Check out the number 4 on the awning across the street.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/145409797 ... res/4q80Ap
Wow the 4 is a GREAT match!! awesome pics! if you're ever going over there i'd meet up with you to look at things...
gManTexas
I mentioned the Charlesgate Hotel the other day. That's 4 Charlesgate E.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Could be feel at home, as in the purpose of a hotel as well as landlord's tale. Somerset Hotel.
this post
drunknerds
Nothing makes me feel less at home than being in a hotel, though? Like I can't picture anyone making this puzzle, looking at a hotel, and thinking "feel at home, yes that's the perfect way to describe this!"
That said, I don't think there will ever be a case where we say "oh, nothing around here makes you feel at home," it's such a vague statement it's easy to find qualifiers.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Nothing makes me feel less at home than being in a hotel, though? Like I can't picture anyone making this puzzle, looking at a hotel, and thinking "feel at home, yes that's the perfect way to describe this!"
That said, I don't think there will ever be a case where we say "oh, nothing around here makes you feel at home," it's such a vague statement it's easy to find qualifiers.
That's exactly why I liked Mother's Rest so much...
drunknerds
Unless... feel at home was a slogan for a hotel/chain in the area. But, Preiss didn't strike me as someone who would put in some ad snippet in the middle of his boook about nature. Then again, the Citgo sign.
Edit: Okay, it looks like hotels the world over love the "feel at home" slogan. Knowing Preiss, this could have been that hotel.
BINGO
Underneath the multiple overpasses is a small community of homeless people. A couple years ago, while hiding a shovel in the bridge girders, one of the men approached me and asked what the hell I was doing. Then asked me for money to get food. I told him that I wouldn’t give him any money, but I would buy him lunch if he answered a few questions for me.
I asked how long he lived under the bridge. He said 10 years on and off.
I asked how many people live there normally. He said 3-5 people was pretty standard.
I asked why the place was so popular for homeless to congregate. He said there was a food pantry just down the street.
I asked how long he lived in Boston. He said 55 years, his entire life.
I asked how far back could he remember homeless people living under the bridge. He couldn’t remember a time when the homeless didn’t live there.
My point is, to many of the homeless in Boston, that Bowker Overpass is Home.
erexere
Very interesting research methods. Good job Mr. Bingo.
drunknerds
BINGO wrote::
Underneath the multiple overpasses is a small community of homeless people. A couple years ago, while hiding a shovel in the bridge girders, one of the men approached me and asked what the hell I was doing. Then asked me for money to get food. I told him that I wouldn’t give him any money, but I would buy him lunch if he answered a few questions for me.
I asked how long he lived under the bridge. He said 10 years on and off.
I asked how many people live there normally. He said 3-5 people was pretty standard.
I asked why the place was so popular for homeless to congregate. He said there was a food pantry just down the street.
I asked how long he lived in Boston. He said 55 years, his entire life.
I asked how far back could he remember homeless people living under the bridge. He couldn’t remember a time when the homeless didn’t live there.
My point is, to many of the homeless in Boston, that Bowker Overpass is Home.
But were they there in 1982? Need photo evidence!
Just kidding, again this supports the notion that literally everywhere there is something that can fit "Feel at home"
roughdraft274
Im guessing yall have already eliminated that sign by the veterans memorial thing thats says something about being home.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
That's exactly why I liked Mother's Rest so much...
Me too
strike13
Out in the field today on the hunt. I came across this quote last night.
A quote by henry wadsworth longfellow..."resolve, and thou art free"
erexere
strike13 wrote::
Out in the field today on the hunt. I came across this quote last night.
A quote by henry wadsworth longfellow..."resolve, and thou art free"
Interesting that it comes from a scene where Prometheus is talking to his brother Epimetheus after he catches a glimpse of Pandora sneaking out so as not be seen cuddling with her titan beau.
I've often wondered if the box in the painting is being portrayed as Pandora's Box.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
Interesting that it comes from a scene where Prometheus is talking to his brother Epimetheus after he catches a glimpse of Pandora sneaking out so as not be seen cuddling with her titan beau.
I've often wondered if the box in the painting is being portrayed as Pandora's Box.
Now that theory I can get behind, especially since it is on the cover of the book!
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I've often wondered if the box in the painting is being portrayed as Pandora's Box.
With the literary allusions throughout the hunt, I seriously think there is little doubt of it.
erexere
Yeah, when I saw what strike13 shared about the Longfellow quote, I checked in the search field to see if that similarity to "In truth, be free" had been mentioned before and it hadn't, so I was pretty stoked for the find. I had already been inclined to think the last line of the verse associated with the big letter S's on the Somerset hotel gate, because they could be inferred as dollar symbols. The first S is oriented properly, but the second S is reversed for symmetry, thus the interpretation may follow that a reversed dollar sign symbolizes NO MONEY or "free" of cost.
I love the Longfellow attribution, given he wrote the Landlord's Tale aka Paul Revere's Midnight Ride. I really love the Pandora's Box motif. A painting of Pandora from 1881 shows her with long red hair. This really gels for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box
Haarstick
erexere wrote::
Yeah, when I saw what strike13 shared about the Longfellow quote, I checked in the search field to see if that similarity to "In truth, be free" had been mentioned before and it hadn't, so I was pretty stoked for the find. I had already been inclined to think the last line of the verse associated with the big letter S's on the Somerset hotel gate, because they could be inferred as dollar symbols. The first S is oriented properly, but the second S is reversed for symmetry, thus the interpretation may follow that a reversed dollar sign symbolizes NO MONEY or "free" of cost.
I love the Longfellow attribution, given he wrote the Landlord's Tale aka Paul Revere's Midnight Ride. I really love the Pandora's Box motif. A painting of Pandora from 1881 shows her with long red hair. This really gels for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box
That painting reference is really interesting too considering some people think the paintings resemble classic works: Image 1 = Da Vinci's "Virgin of the Rocks" and Image 9 = Rembrandt's "Self Portrait". This Rossetti looks right! And she's holding the similarly.
But does it help solve the puzzle? Let's hope!
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
That painting reference is really interesting too considering some people think the paintings resemble classic works: Image 1 = Da Vinci's "Virgin of the Rocks" and Image 9 = Rembrandt's "Self Portrait". This Rossetti looks right! And she's holding the similarly.
But does it help solve the puzzle? Let's hope!
I think it's reasonable to assume that the illustrations were inspired by classic works. I could draw a connection between Image 12 and Botticelli's "Birth of Venus". And Image 6 could certainly be compared to a number of Salvador Dali renditions of Don Quixote.
Haarstick
Do you think these similarities were intentional? Or are we just seeing what we want to see?
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Do you think these similarities were intentional? Or are we just seeing what we want to see?
I haven't dug that deep into it. There could be a connection beyond BP being fond of classic art. Maybe museum locations, historical connections, I don't know. Maybe it was just a convenient set of inspirations for the artwork.
BP says to JJP, "Hey, I really like this panting, can we capture the essence in Image 9?"
JJP, "Sure, what other crazy stuff do you want in there?"
BP, "Look at this leg eater and Fleur de Lis...wait, scratch that last part..."
Haarstick
LOL! This is maddening......
BINGO
If the images are inspired by these art works, how would or could that be applied to find useful information to the hunt? I could see the immigration theme relating an image to a painting by an Italian, Greek, etc artist.
It would be difficult to convince me that another painting may actually provide directional clues to retrieve a casque. It just seems far too complicated to link an image to a famous painting and then solve the puzzle from that.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
LOL! This is maddening......
Soooo maddening!!!! Was out there for a good portion of the day yesterday, in the Fens, pretty discouraging actually hahaha! But cool to meet Bingo and this other guy Brian.
strike13
Anyone else hate that i saw this in the commons. I don't like being pulled in different directions w this.
https://imgur.com/a/RKFlS
Such a striking similarity to the fairy.
erexere
It is supremely helpful to nail down anything with these pictures and verses. I would seriously doubt another artwork would itself be useful as any kind of instruction. Identifying the sources is useful in dispelling illusions about what things mean, however. I'd think the agreement of two pieces of information is very useful in deciding on a course for further investigation. Thucydides/Xenophon/Longfellow/Pandora/Revere/maybe Philippides of Marathon, maybe Somerset, all should tug us into some general direction if anything is meant to work together.
Yes. Maddening.
E: don't forget the Copley fairy.
Running4life
Hi Everyone! I'm new to Q4T, but have had a healthy (debatable) obsession with the Boston puzzle for the past 10 years or so, as I live close by. I was taking a quick look at the verse and something struck me...it may be nothing, but I wanted some feedback. The "feel at home" line has always confused me, but I was so wondering if BP could be referring to the original cheers restaurant "where everybody knows your name." I know it seems out of left field and away from the presumed casque location, but I wanted to bring it up. Interestingly, there is a Greek consulate next door (not sure when that was built or began in that location).
gManTexas
Running4life wrote::
Hi Everyone! I'm new to Q4T, but have had a healthy (debatable) obsession with the Boston puzzle for the past 10 years or so, as I live close by. I was taking a quick look at the verse and something struck me...it may be nothing, but I wanted some feedback. The "feel at home" line has always confused me, but I was so wondering if BP could be referring to the original cheers restaurant "where everybody knows your name." I know it seems out of left field and away from the presumed casque location, but I wanted to bring it up. Interestingly, there is a Greek consulate next door (not sure when that was built or began in that location).
The first episode of Cheers was in 1982. I doubt that it was a reference in the book.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
The first episode of Cheers was in 1982. I doubt that it was a reference in the book.
Def not! I know all things Cheers...haha...I work there once or twice a month...been there for over. It was the bull and finch though, since 69
BINGO
I wish the Cask n Flagon bar was connected. It’s located right behind the Green Monster.
I have spent a minute or two at that location. (Only for research purposes.)
drunknerds
Edit: Wrong thread. I am too illiterate to ever hope to solve this puzzle.
gManTexas
drunknerds, I like this, although maybe you should also post it to the methodology thread. I'd personally like to see the methodology thread be the most popular one on here.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Edit: Wrong thread. I am too illiterate to ever hope to solve this puzzle.
Lol
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Lol
Right now I want to go where nobody knows my name
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Right now I want to go where nobody knows my name
Was the Cask n Flagon paneled in Cherry Wood?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Hi Image 11 gang! I'm an Image 1 kind of guy, but since I was doing some HD image captures of the Expedition Unknown episode, I thought I'd include this wicked sharp CU of the OG image 11 painting for you to dissect in case there are any differences like had been found in Image 9.
And with that, I'll just, uh...
https://imgur.com/a/cS40t
Thanks GG!
WhiteRabbit
...yeah, thanks for that; these screen grabs show up better detail than the scans. (See comparison.) Don't suppose there's a different frame which shows the right column without the brushes in the way...?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Hi Image 11 gang! I'm an Image 1 kind of guy, but since I was doing some HD image captures of the Expedition Unknown episode, I thought I'd include this wicked sharp CU of the OG image 11 painting for you to dissect in case there are any differences like had been found in Image 9.
And with that, I'll just, uh...
https://imgur.com/a/cS40t
One thing that immediately jumps out is that the blue highlights are not there. I believe they were added after.
I'll have to rewatch to see if that's the case for all of the images.
WhiteRabbit
...on the screen grab (left) I've boosted the brightness and contrast slightly towards the scan (right). I think the blue highlights were there, but perhaps the printing/scanning process brought them out...dunno though, you may be right...
gManTexas
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...on the screen grab (left) I've boosted the brightness and contrast slightly towards the scan (right). I think the blue highlights were there, but perhaps the printing/scanning process brought them out...dunno though, you may be right...
WR, I have to finish going through all of the Images and see what I come up with, and then post to the methodology thread, however, the screen-grabs from the EU episode prove to me that the blue highlights are significant.
Anyway, I'll post over there in more detail, but my theory is that the heavy blue highlights are map overlays. The lighter blue highlights are object matches. I believe that JJP was instructed to include map features into the illustrations and for some reason, maybe BP thought it was not prominent enough, the highlights were enhanced when the book went to print.
davinci4
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...yeah, thanks for that; these screen grabs show up better detail than the scans. (See comparison.) Don't suppose there's a different frame which shows the right column without the brushes in the way...?
Would be helpful. Feel like there could be an undiscovered clue in the bottom panel, below the ‘checkerboard.’
Haarstick
Amazing Goldengate! Thank you! Now these symbols are going to drive me even more crazy. They look almost metallic in the scans - like they would be symbols hammered into metal sheets or armor or old decorative siding on a building. They're definitely not nautical flags (I've researched every single version of them!).
I did find an interesting S scroll at the Mt. Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge where Longfellow is buried:
hxxp://masshumanities.org/ph_spring-at- ... -cemetery/
. I was going to see if Strike13 could go check it out. Obviously Preiss would never bury the casque in a cemetery but thought it was interesting. There's also a castle like tower that may have some similarities to the circle window - markings or something? The cemetery also has an Egyptian gate - maybe that damn bird is nearby?
The hunt continues.......
Haarstick
There's been discussions that the Horus reference points us to the letter by Horace Walpole sent to Horace Mann that says "The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru." So this leads us to believe Verse 3 points you to a casque in Boston.
But the bird is so distinct that I feel like it could also be a marker - either on a building, gate, something. The Egyptian gate at Mt. Auburn sent up a flag for me because of that.
The rest of the verse has strong Boston hints as well (Fenway Park, Paul Revere) but it's finding Boston in Image 11 that has driven me crazy. There's no obvious building silhouette, state shape, city shape, nothing concrete yet. The 42 is quite clear in her sleeve but that's been the closest connection so far I think.
JamesV
For anyone working I11/Boston: here's a cool, easy to-use resource for digging up historical photos:
https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org
treetops
For those who ascribe significance to the blue outlines around certain elements of the images, please consider some of Palencar's other work:
hxxp://www.johnjudepalencar.com/Images/neuro_head.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a7/fe/55/a7fe5526f319e66c80f9af140ee29b95.jpg
hxxp://www.sinuousmag.com/sm/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/parable-of-the-sower-by-octavia-butler-artwork-by-john-jude-palencar-2-650x577.jpg
hxxp://www.muddycolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/b7b0f-wildseedpalencar.jpg
I suppose you could go back and try to make the case that his work on The Secret added this affect to his toolbox, or say that Preiss observed this technique in Palencar's work and asked him to utilize it for specific things, but isn't it more likely that this is just something JJP does to make objects and people stand out from the background, especially when that background is close to the object's color? Try to imagine image 1 without the blue outline around the woman. Wouldn't she be rather indistinct against the dark background?
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
For those who ascribe significance to the blue outlines around certain elements of the images, please consider some of Palencar's other work:
hxxp://www.johnjudepalencar.com/Images/neuro_head.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a7/fe/55/a7fe5526f319e66c80f9af140ee29b95.jpg
hxxp://www.sinuousmag.com/sm/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/parable-of-the-sower-by-octavia-butler-artwork-by-john-jude-palencar-2-650x577.jpg
hxxp://www.muddycolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/b7b0f-wildseedpalencar.jpg
I suppose you could go back and try to make the case that his work on The Secret added this affect to his toolbox, or say that Preiss observed this technique in Palencar's work and asked him to utilize it for specific things, but isn't it more likely that this is just something JJP does to make objects and people stand out from the background, especially when that background is close to the object's color? Try to imagine image 1 without the blue outline around the woman. Wouldn't she be rather indistinct against the dark background?
While I agree that this could be a stylistic signature of JJPs work, do the Images in The Secret pass this litmus test? If we look at Image 9, there are dark areas that blend into each other, and have no highlights. Image 8 has highlights where there is clear distinction between a column and sky, etc.
drunknerds
davinci4 wrote::
Would be helpful. Feel like there could be an undiscovered clue in the bottom panel, below the ‘checkerboard.’
Here you go:
Looks like just a square with a diagonal line through it.
Haarstick
Question for the hunters that have been here a while......I was reading some old threads the other days and someone had posted a picture of Byron Preiss in Boston. The link no longer works but I wonder if that led anywhere? Was it taken around the time he was burying the casques and could it be proof he was in Boston? And were you able to tell the location of the picture? I will try to find the exact posts again......
BINGO
There was some discussion in the past where people have considered that Preiss may have buried the casque in the courtyard inside of the Boston Public Library. If you stand outside on the platform where X and T’s names are on the building wall, it is exactly 5 steps to go inside the library.
Once inside the courtyard, there are a few sets of steps and a fountain in the center. It also has planters located throughout. There is a plaque inside that says it was remodeled sometime in the 1990’s so it was difficult to tell what the place looked like when Preiss may have been there.
I just found this picture that may help answer that question. I never thought it was a likely location, and even less likely now.
https://flic.kr/p/23Abg3g
JamesV
Bingo, good find. I guess I can cancel that research request I submitted to the BPL last week...
BINGO
There is no doubt in my mind that the picture was taken inside the courtyard. Those windows are still there and the bars as well.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
There was some discussion in the past where people have considered that Preiss may have buried the casque in the courtyard inside of the Boston Public Library. If you stand outside on the platform where X and T’s names are on the building wall, it is exactly 5 steps to go inside the library.
Once inside the courtyard, there are a few sets of steps and a fountain in the center. It also has planters located throughout. There is a plaque inside that says it was remodeled sometime in the 1990’s so it was difficult to tell what the place looked like when Preiss may have been there.
I just found this picture that may help answer that question. I never thought it was a likely location, and even less likely now.
https://flic.kr/p/23Abg3g
but that bird in that old courtyard pic though....hahaha...jk!
erexere
I like the view of Citgo from the Charlesgate. Like the spot in MKE on E State where you can view the City Hall as it is portrayed in the image, there is a spot where the Citgo sign triangle looks exactly like the triangle fragment on the upper arm. (Use a mirrored image)
BINGO
Have any of the Bostonians on this board ever been to Soldier’s Home? I just drove by the water tower North of the city on Route 1 and noticed the checkerboard pattern. It also says “Soldier’s Home” on the tower.
I’ve never been there before, but I think it is some type of military medical care facility.
Just something I’m thinking about while sitting in lovely Boston traffic.
Haarstick
I've recently started focusing on the field house at Roberto Clemente Field. The structure used to have a tower that had four points on it that are incredibly similar to the castle like image in the box. Look towards the end of this doc that I posted a while ago - there is a picture of the field house before it was renovated:
https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_doc ... -20783.pdf
The south side bleachers were removed after Preiss would have been there so maybe those are the stairs? Face the water - back to the stairs? Any chance those lights used to be green????
Oh Bingo - I checked out Soldier's Home (just online - I'm an hour and a half drive from Boston) and it looks like a nursing home for vets. Not much to the building - very plain and concrete looking.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I've recently started focusing on the field house at Roberto Clemente Field. The structure used to have a tower that had four points on it that are incredibly similar to the castle like image in the box. Look towards the end of this doc that I posted a while ago - there is a picture of the field house before it was renovated:
https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_doc ... -20783.pdf
The south side bleachers were removed after Preiss would have been there so maybe those are the stairs? Face the water - back to the stairs? Any chance those lights used to be green????
Oh Bingo - I checked out Soldier's Home (just online - I'm an hour and a half drive from Boston) and it looks like a nursing home for vets. Not much to the building - very plain and concrete looking.
I love this idea because I feel like we have some good visual markers to the wwii mem:
1) the sword/feathery thing she is holding, resembles the shape of the thing at the top of the circle in the image.
2) the design on the wings resembles the design to the right of the gladiolus flower in the image, the gladiolus flower also has the meaning of "sword"
3) the way the wings span on the woman in the wwii mem resemble the shape of woman in image 11 hair
4) the side of her right sleeve on the wwii mem has the same kind of design as the side of the right sleeve of the woman in image 11
5) we have stairs, water, and also little benches that sort of look like the table things in the image.
6) The artists: John Francis Paramino and Tito Cascieri, Italian, we do need Italian connection to this
Here are some pics, I feel like I posted these before but perhaps in a jumbled way.
https://imgur.com/a/9pTd5
versing for the wwii....
Near those who pass: the wwii mem is for those who died in the war..."those who pass"
the coliseum with metal walls: the wwii mem is shaped like a coliseum and the walls/names are on bronze plaques....metal walls.
Lit by lamplight: there is an eternal light at the top of the wwii mem
i like the idea of the clemente field area. and it is right near the wwii mem, so it could be perfect. and the field house looking castle like, it does match. roberto clemente was born the 18th day of august...august, also which is the month for our image. that could bring us closer down that way.
I guess this is still a jumbled post. whatever
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
I love this idea because I feel like we have some good visual markers to the wwii mem:
1) the sword/feathery thing she is holding, resembles the shape of the thing at the top of the circle in the image.
2) the design on the wings resembles the design to the right of the gladiolus flower in the image, the gladiolus flower also has the meaning of "sword"
3) the way the wings span on the woman in the wwii mem resemble the shape of woman in image 11 hair
4) the side of her right sleeve on the wwii mem has the same kind of design as the side of the right sleeve of the woman in image 11
5) we have stairs, water, and also little benches that sort of look like the table things in the image.
6) The artists: John Francis Paramino and Tito Cascieri, Italian, we do need Italian connection to this
Here are some pics, I feel like I posted these before but perhaps in a jumbled way.
https://imgur.com/a/9pTd5
versing for the wwii....
Near those who pass: the wwii mem is for those who died in the war..."those who pass"
the coliseum with metal walls: the wwii mem is shaped like a coliseum and the walls/names are on bronze plaques....metal walls.
Lit by lamplight: there is an eternal light at the top of the wwii mem
i like the idea of the clemente field area. and it is right near the wwii mem, so it could be perfect. and the field house looking castle like, it does match. roberto clemente was born the 18th day of august...august, also which is the month for our image. that could bring us closer down that way.
I guess this is still a jumbled post. whatever
I like this.
Also in the Field Guide, this is mentioned on page 139:
Resembling as they do the traditional "Winged Victories"
Haarstick
Like with Chicago, could Preiss have sent us down a path of visual clues? Wasn't there first the Chicago Water Tower then follow one street south (following one main street was proposed in a podcast - note they had to walk almost 4 miles I think) then you see the man and beast statue (also tied to M and B set in stone) then the round symbol on the Symphony Building then the fairy on a fountain and then the verse kind of took over and even then you had to follow different clues - first to Lincoln then the trees then the fence and fixture. But the clues were out of sequence.
So following that same logic: Maybe we start at the library (X and T) - take Boylston all the way to the intersection of Boylston and Park (near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls) - all the letters are here to see (the lettered paths at Victory Gardens confirms you're on the right path) - you then see the WWII Memorial that has a good amount of visual clues) - pass the Kelleher Rose Garden which has a similar shape to the painting - feel at home (you reach the baseball field) - you see the field house which is in the painting (the tower that came down is incredibly similar) - a green tower of lights (maybe the field lights were green?) - in the middle section (maybe the middle space between the two baseball fields?) - face the water - back to the stairs (go behind the bleachers that were once there on the water side) - Take 5 steps in the area of his direction (maybe North??) - 18th day?? 12th hour?? Were those used to reference Revere to get us to Boston? Maybe once you're on that spot something clicks? Could the flat white images in the painting be the bleacher seats?
Another interesting note: maybe the glow from the box means that the casque is near a visual clue on the box. The castle like image looks so much like the tower that was removed. Maybe the glow means "dig near here"?
It seems like he wanted us to wander around the Fens and take in everything there was to see like his daughters suggested on the show. Each area of the Fens seems to have clues in the painting. Maybe the field house is the final spot?
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Like with Chicago, could Preiss have sent us down a path of visual clues? Wasn't there first the Chicago Water Tower then follow one street south (following one main street was proposed in a podcast - note they had to walk almost 4 miles I think) then you see the man and beast statue (also tied to M and B set in stone) then the round symbol on the Symphony Building then the fairy on a fountain and then the verse kind of took over and even then you had to follow different clues - first to Lincoln then the trees then the fence and fixture. But the clues were out of sequence.
So following that same logic: Maybe we start at the library (X and T) - take Boylston all the way to the intersection of Boylston and Park (near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls) - all the letters are here to see (the lettered paths at Victory Gardens confirms you're on the right path) - you then see the WWII Memorial that has a good amount of visual clues) - pass the Kelleher Rose Garden which has a similar shape to the painting - feel at home (you reach the baseball field) - you see the field house which is in the painting (the tower that came down is incredibly similar) - a green tower of lights (maybe the field lights were green?) - in the middle section (maybe the middle space between the two baseball fields?) - face the water - back to the stairs (go behind the bleachers that were once there on the water side) - Take 5 steps in the area of his direction (maybe North??) - 18th day?? 12th hour?? Were those used to reference Revere to get us to Boston? Maybe once you're on that spot something clicks? Could the flat white images in the painting be the bleacher seats?
Another interesting note: maybe the glow from the box means that the casque is near a visual clue on the box. The castle like image looks so much like the tower that was removed. Maybe the glow means "dig near here"?
It seems like he wanted us to wander around the Fens and take in everything there was to see like his daughters suggested on the show. Each area of the Fens seems to have clues in the painting. Maybe the field house is the final spot?
Yes, sounds good. Now go find it already!
BINGO
For that area of the Fens, the Clemente field is an attractive spot to bury the casque. The tree line that is closest to the first base line is very secluded compared to the open areas of the rose garden, war memorial, basketball courts, running track, etc. Walkways surround everything else in the area.
There is an Orthodox Church across the street from the old field house location. I had wondered if the domes on the church used to be visible above the top of the old field house walls. Making an illusion of sorts (a castle with domed towers) when looking at the two buildings.
It sucks that the old building has been altered (portions removed) so much since back then. If that is/was the location, hopefully enough clues remain to figure it out.
The big downfall in my opinion is the lack of an Italian theme. Roberto Clemente might sound like an Italian name, but I doubt that Preiss would make that mistake.
If anyone needs pictures or has a request for something specific in that area, I’m there almost every day. I’d be happy to help in any way.
Haarstick
I was thinking the same Bingo - if you look at the field house's tall four pronged tower (that is now gone) with that church's spire (or whatever that is called) behind it maybe you could get the same effect as in the box? Or maybe the castle part is the only important structure from the painting (like how the Chicago's tower was the only important structure in that painting - all those other didn't mean anything). But maybe if you stand over by where the bleachers used to be, that angle works? Wish the tower was still there! Either way, it could be an interesting area to explore.
I'm kind of loving the idea that the glow from the box is to symbolize where the treasure is. Maybe you dig at that exact angle spot?
drunknerds
BINGO wrote::
For that area of the Fens, the Clemente field is an attractive spot to bury the casque. The tree line that is closest to the first base line is very secluded compared to the open areas of the rose garden, war memorial, basketball courts, running track, etc. Walkways surround everything else in the area.
There is an Orthodox Church across the street from the old field house location. I had wondered if the domes on the church used to be visible above the top of the old field house walls. Making an illusion of sorts (a castle with domed towers) when looking at the two buildings.
It sucks that the old building has been altered (portions removed) so much since back then. If that is/was the location, hopefully enough clues remain to figure it out.
The big downfall in my opinion is the lack of an Italian theme. Roberto Clemente might sound like an Italian name, but I doubt that Preiss would make that mistake.
If anyone needs pictures or has a request for something specific in that area, I’m there almost every day. I’d be happy to help in any way.
Besides the emerald, was there anything Irish about the Chicago location?
Mister EZ
drunknerds wrote::
Besides the emerald, was there anything Irish about the Chicago location?
Probably not....
But, in Ireland, lilies of the valley (lower right in the picture) are called fairy ladders.
And, the skullcap looks like something a medieval Irish peasant might wear (in a Month Python, Terry Gilliam sort of way).
"Bring out ch'er dead"
/me bangs two coconuts together and gallops away
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I was thinking the same Bingo - if you look at the field house's tall four pronged tower (that is now gone) with that church's spire (or whatever that is called) behind it maybe you could get the same effect as in the box? Or maybe the castle part is the only important structure from the painting (like how the Chicago's tower was the only important structure in that painting - all those other didn't mean anything). But maybe if you stand over by where the bleachers used to be, that angle works? Wish the tower was still there! Either way, it could be an interesting area to explore.
I'm kind of loving the idea that the glow from the box is to symbolize where the treasure is. Maybe you dig at that exact angle spot?
Regarding the field house there I just found this..it was originally Joseph Lee Playground...pay attention to the second to last sentence, could be immigrant connection
Joseph Lee (1862 – 1937) was a wealthy Bostonian, who trained as a lawyer but never practiced law, and is considered the "founder of the playground movement." He was the son of Henry Lee, a Boston banker, and Elizabeth Perkins Cabot Lee of Brookline, Massachusetts.
He was a social worker, author, and philanthropist. Lee believed that community life could be strengthened by playgrounds and play.
In 1897, Lee married Margaret Cabot. They had four children. Margaret Cabot Lee died in 1920 and Lee remarried his secretary, Marion Snow, in 1930. Lee's daughter, Susan Lee, was active in her father's work and later served as vice-president of the National Recreation and Park Association. His son, Joseph Lee Jr. helped establish the Massachusetts Committee to Further Outdoor Recreation and the Boston Board of Recreation and served as chairman of the Boston Park Commission and Boston School Committee.
Lee founded the Massachusetts Civic League and served as its President from 1897-1937.
He was an active officer in the Immigration Restriction League from 1905 until his death in 1937.
He served as president of the National Recreation Association from 1910 until the time of his death.
BINGO
drunknerds wrote::
Besides the emerald, was there anything Irish about the Chicago location?
Very true, I’ll give you that. I’m just pissy because Boston just seems so much more difficult. Chicago’s tower, two statues, fence, and state outline are luxuries that we just don’t have here. Not to mention a verse with some reasonable directions. I’m just wishing for something that is so good that it is beyond questioning and debate.
One would think an Italian connection would be the easiest to find.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
Very true, I’ll give you that. I’m just pissy because Boston just seems so much more difficult. Chicago’s tower, two statues, fence, and state outline are luxuries that we just don’t have here. Not to mention a verse with some reasonable directions. I’m just wishing for something that is so good that it is beyond questioning and debate.
One would think an Italian connection would be the easiest to find.
The only Italian connection i can find so far are the artists of the wwi mem
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
I was thinking the same Bingo - if you look at the field house's tall four pronged tower (that is now gone) with that church's spire (or whatever that is called) behind it maybe you could get the same effect as in the box? Or maybe the castle part is the only important structure from the painting (like how the Chicago's tower was the only important structure in that painting - all those other didn't mean anything). But maybe if you stand over by where the bleachers used to be, that angle works? Wish the tower was still there! Either way, it could be an interesting area to explore.
I'm kind of loving the idea that the glow from the box is to symbolize where the treasure is. Maybe you dig at that exact angle spot?
i think you're right w the walking down boylston...makes total sense, and it is the only sense i can make of the t and x. maybe it is at a 45/50 deg angle like that for a digging reason then..nice one!
darkplacehospital
drunknerds wrote::
Besides the emerald, was there anything Irish about the Chicago location?
Yeah. Grant Park is named for Ulysses S Grant who was of Irish descent on his mother's side. He was, I believe, the first US president to visit Ireland though it was after he left office. During his visit to Ireland he was made an honorary citizen of Dublin.
Haarstick
Anyone have old pictures of the Clemente field house and overall sports area? I only have that one of the field house before it was renovated to a smaller structure. I've looked everywhere but can't find much else. Curious if there were always two baseball fields - where were the bleachers exactly - etc.....
BINGO
Haarstick wrote::
Anyone have old pictures of the Clemente field house and overall sports area? I only have that one of the field house before it was renovated to a smaller structure. I've looked everywhere but can't find much else. Curious if there were always two baseball fields - where were the bleachers exactly - etc.....
Here are a couple of aerials to look at for comparison.
1978
Current
gManTexas
Guess they didn't do much field maintenance back in 1978. If we were standing at home plate with our back to the bleachers, facing the water, the lights look the same now as they did then. See the shadows in the two photos.
Assuming this spot is correct, still have to determine the final steps. 18 and 12?
rlhuguenin
that circle area with the rectangle attached/at the bottom in the map sort of looks like the shape of image 11.
drunknerds
rlhuguenin wrote::
that circle area with the rectangle attached/at the bottom in the map sort of looks like the shape of image 11.
It sure does! Use the search box at the top right and type in "Kelleher" and you can instantly see all the discussion about that.
rlhuguenin
drunknerds wrote::
It sure does! Use the search box at the top right and type in "Kelleher" and you can instantly see all the discussion about that.
cool. thanks!
Haarstick
That's exactly what I was looking for Bingo! Thank you!
I was interested in finding out exactly where the bleachers were (stairs?) and the shape of the river (kind of resembles the odd shadow at her neckline). Looks like the bleachers were right on top of the walkway that still exists. My thought was back to the stairs meaning go behind the once existing bleachers and face the water. Remember Cleveland they had to go behind the wall even though it seemed odd for them to do so? So go behind the bleachers, face the water, stay in the middle section near the tall lights. Strike13 and I went back and forth about maybe the jewel in the painting marking the location of the casque but we realized it doesn't make much sense.
One thought for Chicago was the loop in his earring represents the Chicago Loop and the casque was found just under the Chicago Loop in Grant Park (as in the painting). Any thoughts on the location of the jewel in the painting? I can't seem to find any connection or clue there.
I'm thinking "feel at home" was just a clue to a ballpark. And the shape in her sleeve kind of resembles home plate. And not sure if the Field Guide gives any real clues but baseball players are pictured in the Team Spirits section - there's a small fairy sitting on a baseball. Maybe not intended as a clue but interesting.
Now just to see if the water level has risen really high in that spot.
gManTexas
Have any of the Boston searchers looked at the Agassiz Road Duck House? There's a set of stairs on the left side where you can face the water.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Have any of the Boston searchers looked at the Agassiz Road Duck House? There's a set of stairs on the left side where you can face the water.
I did with another guy Brian, nothing at allll stood out. It was intriguing to me because it was built by Alexander Longfellow, nephew of Henry W...so I reeeally was hoping for a connection there, as the location fit perfect...but nothing stood out at all..spent like 25 mins there even. I am willing to take a relook though....
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
I did with another guy Brian, nothing at allll stood out. It was intriguing to me because it was built by Alexander Longfellow, nephew of Henry W...so I reeeally was hoping for a connection there, as the location fit perfect...but nothing stood out at all..spent like 25 mins there even. I am willing to take a relook though....
It's very close to the V Gardens. Wonder what else you can see from there.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
It's very close to the V Gardens. Wonder what else you can see from there.
Reeds, reeds and more reeds. Agassiz Rd basically bridges over the muddy river. One side is the victory gardens and Mother’s Rest and the other side has the war memorial, Rose Garden, Clemente field, etc.
It’s actually difficult to see anything from the duck house because the reeds on both sides of the river are like 8’ tall.
gManTexas
Smack in the middle of everything. Any idea about the view in 1980?
Also, could the patterned globe holder represent the alternating blocks of the arches in the Old South Church near the library?
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Smack in the middle of everything. Any idea about the view in 1980?
Also, could the patterned globe holder represent the alternating blocks of the arches in the Old South Church near the library?
It’s just as good as any other match to bridge, window and doorway arches throughout the city. You would be amazed at how many alternating colored block arches one can find in this town. It’s maddening.
I’ve been trying to take a meditation (clear mind) approach lately when looking at the image. I noticed something last night that stood out for some reason. Probably nothing, but all 3 of the blue globes at the bottom of the image do not complete a full circle. One is cut off by the table/bench, one is chopped at the right border and the other at the stand/leg next to our lady. They all seem to make similar shape and look like they might fit inside of each other.
Help me out erexere, I’m losing my mind a little!
gManTexas
That's a great observation! Gotta think about that.
Has anyone figured out the feature on the base (column) the rightmost globe is on? It's spiky and gold colored. Wiki image coords. P-9.
erexere
Bingo, I applaud that sort of approach. We need to take a break from hardline thinking and sometimes just wonder aloud about things that don't or do fit nicely. It's sometimes that nudge or tug of something that doesn't seem quite right that holds the most promise.
I will look at those globe's for awhile and meditate on your idea.
strike13
Ok so what do we think about this!? That crater thing is shaded like the wwii mem...look it is dark in the spot where the mem structure is, and also a full circle like the whole thing is.
https://imgur.com/a/EVSsU
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Reeds, reeds and more reeds. Agassiz Rd basically bridges over the muddy river. One side is the victory gardens and Mother’s Rest and the other side has the war memorial, Rose Garden, Clemente field, etc.
It’s actually difficult to see anything from the duck house because the reeds on both sides of the river are like 8’ tall.
I was reading an article about the Duck House, that it was created to provide a relief from the hustle and bustle of the city. When you look at it, besides being called a house, it looks like a home, with a front and back yard. You can go in the back yard and feel like you a are million miles from everything. Might have been a good place for BP to bury the casque.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Ok so what do we think about this!? That crater thing is shaded like the wwii mem...look it is dark in the spot where the mem structure is, and also a full circle like the whole thing is.
https://imgur.com/a/EVSsU
I don't think there is any doubt that the Winged Victory statue is referenced.
erexere
I have doubts. Compare it to the strength of the Bowman in Image 5. How strongly do other components of the puzzle place you in direct consequence of view of that statue?
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
I have doubts. Compare it to the strength of the Bowman in Image 5. How strongly do other components of the puzzle place you in direct consequence of view of that statue?
We have the large image of Dolly Parton that looks a heck of a lot like the Winged Victory statue. Also, "Winged Victory" is mentioned int he book.
erexere
How is further exploration of the Winged Victory working out?
Does the size of something taken as a visual clue mean its more significant in some way? Starting of a breadcrumb maybe? Or does it suggest the treasure ground?
Why is Dolly Parton of special importance here?
How do the fair folk of old Italy subscribe to pop culture?
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
How is further exploration of the Winged Victory working out?
Does the size of something taken as a visual clue mean its more significant in some way? Starting of a breadcrumb maybe? Or does it suggest the treasure ground?
Why is Dolly Parton of special importance here?
How do the fair folk of old Italy subscribe to pop culture?
Lol, you are reading too much into it. I affectionately call the woman in Image 11 Dolly Parton, because she looks like Dolly Parton.
I have no opinion on the relative size of an object stressing more or less importance. It would be great if it was that simple.
erexere
I'd rather call her Pandora.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
I'd rather call her Pandora.
Dolly Pandora
Haarstick
Per the discussion re: the Agassiz Duck House as a possible location. I remember reading that there used to be a memorial there but it was moved. I looked everywhere to try and get an image of this memorial but couldn't find it anywhere. I even looked via Google Maps on Peddocks Island but nothing. Could this memorial hold one of the clues? It says a plinth still remains. Strike13 - did you see any kind of concrete base?
I found this blurb on Wikipedia:
Radio Operators memorial (relocated)
This memorial, commemorating the radio operators who lost their lives on merchant ships during the Second World War, depicts a sinking ship with S.O.S. in Morse Code around the base. It was moved in the 1990s to Peddocks Island at the request of veteran operators, as Peddocks was where they trained. Its plinth remains located on Agassiz Road adjacent to the Agassiz Bridge, overlooking the war memorials across from the Kelleher Rose Garden.
I'll Google again and try to find an image of it. SOS in Morse Code is ... _ _ _ ... (so three dots, three dashes and three dots). Could the odd images on her scarf have some tie to this memorial?
erexere
That's a Hard compromise...
Things work better in my mind when I attempt to frame the puzzles according to the characters involved. What were the fair folk thinking to mix strong clues to Longfellow or the historian keepers during the Persian wars with Greece?
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Per the discussion re: the Agassiz Duck House as a possible location. I remember reading that there used to be a memorial there but it was moved. I looked everywhere to try and get an image of this memorial but couldn't find it anywhere. I even looked via Google Maps on Peddocks Island but nothing. Could this memorial hold one of the clues? It says a plinth still remains. Strike13 - did you see any kind of concrete base?
I found this blurb on Wikipedia:
Radio Operators memorial (relocated)
This memorial, commemorating the radio operators who lost their lives on merchant ships during the Second World War, depicts a sinking ship with S.O.S. in Morse Code around the base. It was moved in the 1990s to Peddocks Island at the request of veteran operators, as Peddocks was where they trained. Its plinth remains located on Agassiz Road adjacent to the Agassiz Bridge, overlooking the war memorials across from the Kelleher Rose Garden.
I'll Google again and try to find an image of it. SOS in Morse Code is ... _ _ _ ... (so three dots, three dashes and three dots). Could the odd images on her scarf have some tie to this memorial?
This is great! I did notice something on the sidewalk near the stairs of the shelter. Looks like circular concrete pads.
Across from the shelter is this base:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3432328 ... 312!8i6656
Probably where it used to sit.
Haarstick
gMan - I have searched like crazy trying to find what this memorial looked like! Could you give it a try? But at least the concrete slabs give us a location.
MrBackstop
strike13 wrote::
Ok so what do we think about this!? That crater thing is shaded like the wwii mem...look it is dark in the spot where the mem structure is, and also a full circle like the whole thing is.
https://imgur.com/a/EVSsU
I looked at the circular crater as being an indication of degree. As in 212° , the boiling point of water. Boylston Street
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
I looked at the circular crater as being an indication of degree. As in 212° , the boiling point of water. Boylston Street
Super clever!
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
gMan - I have searched like crazy trying to find what this memorial looked like! Could you give it a try? But at least the concrete slabs give us a location.
Wow great find!! I did not see this at alllll last week, the slabs. I will definitely go back very soon and am now researching it.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Per the discussion re: the Agassiz Duck House as a possible location. I remember reading that there used to be a memorial there but it was moved. I looked everywhere to try and get an image of this memorial but couldn't find it anywhere. I even looked via Google Maps on Peddocks Island but nothing. Could this memorial hold one of the clues? It says a plinth still remains. Strike13 - did you see any kind of concrete base?
I found this blurb on Wikipedia:
Radio Operators memorial (relocated)
This memorial, commemorating the radio operators who lost their lives on merchant ships during the Second World War, depicts a sinking ship with S.O.S. in Morse Code around the base. It was moved in the 1990s to Peddocks Island at the request of veteran operators, as Peddocks was where they trained. Its plinth remains located on Agassiz Road adjacent to the Agassiz Bridge, overlooking the war memorials across from the Kelleher Rose Garden.
I'll Google again and try to find an image of it. SOS in Morse Code is ... _ _ _ ... (so three dots, three dashes and three dots). Could the odd images on her scarf have some tie to this memorial?
Maybe it actually got relocated to Langone Park near the playground:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/gal ... n-memorial
Google map location:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lango ... 71.0560417
BINGO
That should be an easy monument to track down. That park is in the North End. If we only had someone close by...
Haarstick
That has to be it! I don't see anything particularly familiar about it though. Ugh.
Yes I wonder if someone lives in the North End.....hmmm......
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
That has to be it! I don't see anything particularly familiar about it though. Ugh.
Yes I wonder if someone lives in the North End.....hmmm......
Yeah i live pretty much across the street from that haha! Ive looked at it a lot in reference to this but hadn't given it much more of a thought. I'll go take some pics of it
strike13
Yeah i live pretty much across the street from that haha! Ive looked at it a lot in reference to this but hadn't given it much more of a thought. I'll go take some pics of it[/quote]
It will give me some incentive to get up and get outside. I have a bit of an IPA headache
gManTexas
It looks like the Morse Code pattern repeats over and over around the top of the monument.
Lightning bolt dot dot dot dash dot dash
I wonder if there are any dates on the monument.
One point of interest, the Morse Code operators were in place to warn if Boston was being attacked during WWII. This is the same theme as Paul Revere and lighting the beacons in the North Church tower.
Plus you have the Longfellow connection with the Duck House. For those who don't know, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote the famous poem about Paul Revere's Ride. Alexander Longfellow, who designed the Duck House shelter was related to Henry.
Haarstick
gManTexas wrote::
It looks like the Morse Code pattern repeats over and over around the top of the monument.
Lightning bolt dot dot dot dash dot dash
I wonder if there are any dates on the monument.
One point of interest, the Morse Code operators were in place to warn if Boston was being attacked during WWII. This is the same theme as Paul Revere and lighting the beacons in the North Church tower.
Plus you have the Longfellow connection with the Duck House. For those who don't know, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote the famous poem about Paul Revere's Ride. Alexander Longfellow, who designed the Duck House shelter was related to Henry.
And there's the poems Pandora's Box and something about a North Star I think. Definitely many hints to Longfellow which make it not far off to think the casque could be buried near the Longfellow Duck House. I wonder if the monument that was moved has the word "truth" on it anywhere??? Wouldn't that be amazing!!
So it seems we have three good spots in the Fens - near the WWII Memorial (but it's quite public), behind the once existing bleachers at Clemente Field, near the Duck House.........and near any other damn stairs that existed in 1981!
I'm heading up to Boston Saturday 3/24 - meet up to check locations???
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
And there's the poems Pandora's Box and something about a North Star I think. Definitely many hints to Longfellow which make it not far off to think the casque could be buried near the Longfellow Duck House. I wonder if the monument that was moved has the word "truth" on it anywhere??? Wouldn't that be amazing!!
So it seems we have three good spots in the Fens - near the WWII Memorial (but it's quite public), behind the once existing bleachers at Clemente Field, near the Duck House.........and near any other damn stairs that existed in 1981!
I'm heading up to Boston Saturday 3/24 - meet up to check locations???
Haha, I'd love t meet up, but I'm in Texas. Go find Bingo and Strike13. I bet the three of you can solve this and dig it up in the same day.
Haarstick
Just found a Longfellow poem titled "The Falcon of Ser Federigo" and another called "The Fiftieth Birthday of Agassiz". So we have Masque of Pandora, The Evening Star, Paul Revere's Ride and The Falcon and Agassiz. May all be coincidence but interesting. Here's a list of his poems:
hxxp://www.bartleby.com/356/618.html
erexere
Haarstick wrote::
Just found a Longfellow poem titled "The Falcon of Ser Federigo" and another called "The Fiftieth Birthday of Agassiz". So we have Masque of Pandora, The Evening Star, Paul Revere's Ride and The Falcon and Agassiz. May all be coincidence but interesting. Here's a list of his poems:
hxxp://www.bartleby.com/356/618.html
The Landlord's Tale
is the proper title for "Paul Revere's Ride".
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Just found a Longfellow poem titled "The Falcon of Ser Federigo" and another called "The Fiftieth Birthday of Agassiz". So we have Masque of Pandora, The Evening Star, Paul Revere's Ride and The Falcon and Agassiz. May all be coincidence but interesting. Here's a list of his poems:
hxxp://www.bartleby.com/356/618.html
I went down rabbit hole regarding the Peregrine Falcon yesterday. There is a lot of connection to Boston. A couple that stand out are:
Peregrine, Latin Peregrinus, is a name originally meaning "one from abroad", that is, a foreigner, traveller, or
pilgrim
.
Peregrine White (c. November 20, 1620 – July 20, 1704) was the first baby boy born on the Mayflower in the harbor of Massachusetts.
Apparently Peregrine Falcons are local (even though a wide distribution through out the world) to Boston and somewhat famous. A new carousel was built recently featuring a Peregrine, among other local animals.
https://www.rosekennedygreenway.org/vis ... -carousel/
They are known to nest in the bridges in that area near the Fens.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
The Landlord's Tale
is the proper title for "Paul Revere's Ride".
Thank you Professor Erex!
strike13
Hey guys! Here are some pics i just took of that memorial that used to be at the duck house. Yeah the lightning bolt dot dot dot dash dot keeps repeating, the lightning bolt switches angles every other time. Sorry about the one w the weird angle, that one was covered up by bushes. I'm totally down for 324
https://m.imgur.com/a/17Fqw
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Hey guys! Here are some pics i just took of that memorial that used to be at the duck house. Yeah the lightning bolt dot dot dot dash dot keeps repeating, the lightning bolt switches angles every other time. Sorry about the one w the weird angle, that one was covered up by bushes. I'm totally down for 324
https://m.imgur.com/a/17Fqw
So, I am hoping someone else takes a crack at the morse code, but I'm seeing:
... = S
_._ = K
Why would SK repeat over and over?
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
So, I am hoping someone else takes a crack at the morse code, but I'm seeing:
... = S
_._ = K
Why would SK repeat over and over?
i wonder if the lightning bolts have any bearing on the morse code msg
strike13
It's the code for 'end of work' or 'end of service'. No secret alternate meaning here, it's just symbolically stating that the people mentioned are dead.
Sorry guys, nothing to see here.[/quote]
Cool! End of work...maybe means end of work on the hunt...you've found it, dig! Hahaha! Never know....
strike13
The only thing I could find having to do with lightning bolts and morse code pattern is stuff like this
hxxp://www.oldpoliticals.com/lot-19952.aspx
https://www.hakes.com/SaleList/ItemDeta ... MORSE-CODE
Interesting how we see the word Victory again
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
It's the code for 'end of work' or 'end of service'. No secret alternate meaning here, it's just symbolically stating that the people mentioned are dead.
Sorry guys, nothing to see here.
Cool! End of work...maybe means end of work on the hunt...you've found it, dig! Hahaha! Never know....
[/quote]
Haha, could be!
drunknerds
So, in truth, the SK morse code means you're free
Haarstick
The morse code spells out SOS. It was mentioned in one of the blurbs about the memorial.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
The morse code spells out SOS. It was mentioned in one of the blurbs about the memorial.
Disagree. See post above about End of Service.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
So, in truth, the SK morse code means you're free
That could very well be. Clever.
Haarstick
MrSeabass wrote::
It absolutely does not. Are you serious?
..._._
Clear as fucking day.
No need to get hostile and use that language Seabass. I mean seriously?? I'm just quoting the information I read on the Wikipedia page and about the Fens and the memorial.
Here is the actual quote. Maybe it's wrong but this is what I was referencing. It says pretty clearly (as clear as fucking day I would say) that it features "SOS in Morse Code around the base". I agree, the actual markings don't look like the dots for SOS but it would make sense.
"Radio Operators memorial (relocated)
This memorial, commemorating the radio operators who lost their lives on merchant ships during the Second World War, depicts a sinking ship with S.O.S. in Morse Code around the base. It was moved in the 1990s to Peddocks Island at the request of veteran operators, as Peddocks was where they trained. Its plinth remains located on Agassiz Road adjacent to the Agassiz Bridge, overlooking the war memorials across from the Kelleher Rose Garden."
Have I been clear enough for you? Enjoy your fucking day.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
No need to get hostile and use that language Seabass. I mean seriously?? I'm just quoting the information I read on the Wikipedia page and about the Fens and the memorial.
Here is the actual quote. Maybe it's wrong but this is what I was referencing. It says pretty clearly (as clear as fucking day I would say) that it features "SOS in Morse Code around the base". I agree, the actual markings don't look like the dots for SOS but it would make sense.
"Radio Operators memorial (relocated)
This memorial, commemorating the radio operators who lost their lives on merchant ships during the Second World War, depicts a sinking ship with S.O.S. in Morse Code around the base. It was moved in the 1990s to Peddocks Island at the request of veteran operators, as Peddocks was where they trained. Its plinth remains located on Agassiz Road adjacent to the Agassiz Bridge, overlooking the war memorials across from the Kelleher Rose Garden."
Have I been clear enough for you? Enjoy your fucking day.
From everything I have read, the Wikipedia article is completely wrong. I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, and always try to cross reference the info.
Haarstick
Thank you for saying it so politely, gMan. Always appreciated.
Strike13 - it's hard to see from the picture but does it say treasure on it? Not much of a clue but interesting.
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
Thank you for saying it so politely, gMan. Always appreciated.
Strike13 - it's hard to see from the picture but does it say treasure on it? Not much of a clue but interesting.
No problem. An interesting, but probably not connected tidbit, there was supposedly a fabulous treasure buried on Gallops Island where the US Maritime radio operators station was located:
Peddock's and Gallops Islands
Peddock has been used by farmers since 1634. Peddock's proximity to the mainland ensured a prominent military role. Said to be the site of a patriot infantrymen's raid on a Loyalist farm, Peddock's also saw over 600 patriot militiamen stationed on the island in 1776, to guard the harbor against the return of British troops. It is one of the many harbor islands known to be used by American Indians prior to European settlement.
Gallops in the 1830's was a popular summer resort with an inn and restaurant, perhaps because of its legendary association with pirate lore.
Boston Harbor Islands
One pirate, "Long Ben" Avery, is said to have buried a treasure of diamonds on the island, although nothing has ever been found. Gallops features a sandy beach and has picnic areas, hiking paths, guided walks, historic ruins, and a rather large rabbit population.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
Thank you for saying it so politely, gMan. Always appreciated.
Strike13 - it's hard to see from the picture but does it say treasure on it? Not much of a clue but interesting.
It either says measure or treasure....wow, i missed this because this was the section that was covered in bushes and i couldn't even see when i took the pic, i just stuck my phone in there and tried to pull some of the bushes away to get a pic. looks like i will be back again tonight hahaha! or maybe at lunch break, depending on my day here. If it says treasure, i feel even better about the duck house spot
strike13
strike13 wrote::
It either says measure or treasure....wow, i missed this because this was the section that was covered in bushes and i couldn't even see when i took the pic, i just stuck my phone in there and tried to pull some of the bushes away to get a pic. looks like i will be back again tonight hahaha! or maybe at lunch break, depending on my day here. If it says treasure, i feel even better about the duck house spot
The best part was explaining to my neighbor what i was doing. She was walking her dog by me as I was taking these pics. She was so confused and I could barely articulate what was going on....so I just said helping a friends kid with a school project to cut it short haha!
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
The light from the church isn't green, but all else is fitting.
The old south church has green lights and is green tower of lights in the middle section of back bay
My bad. I always thought/assumed that the North Church has green lights. I don’t think I’ve ever been there at night. ASS-U-ME
strike13
The light from the church isn't green, but all else is fitting.
The old south church has green lights and is green tower of lights in the middle section of back bay[/quote]
My bad. I always thought/assumed that the North Church has green lights. I don’t think I’ve ever been there at night. ASS-U-ME[/quote]
Hahaha..no worries at all! We're all just talking, sharing ideas, trying to rule stuff out, etc
Check this green tower of lights
hxxp://www.fw4elders.org/wp-content/upl ... _south.jpg
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
The light from the church isn't green, but all else is fitting.
The old south church has green lights and is green tower of lights in the middle section of back bay
My bad. I always thought/assumed that the North Church has green lights. I don’t think I’ve ever been there at night. ASS-U-ME[/quote]
Hahaha..no worries at all! We're all just talking, sharing ideas, trying to rule stuff out, etc
Check this green tower of lights
hxxp://www.fw4elders.org/wp-content/upl ... _south.jpg
[/quote]
That is exactly what I was thinking was at the North Church.
I went to that spot a bunch of times to read those plaques too. Looking for anything and everything related. That’s when my imagination took over.
I think we are all guilty of it at times.
treetops
I keep seeing "A green tower of lights" get interpreted as "a tower of green light"
Here's what strikes me as the most straightforward riddle-type solution to "A green tower of lights":
"In the middle section" might help specify which green-painted traffic pole is being referred to.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I keep seeing "A green tower of lights" get interpreted as "a tower of green light"
Here's what strikes me as the most straightforward riddle-type solution to "A green tower of lights":
"In the middle section" might help specify which green-painted traffic pole is being referred to.
That is a great idea, I think in one of the Master Plans for the Fens it was stated (or in some other source, sorry) that the traffic island at Boylston and Charlesgate had become an eyesore and nightmare. I'll have to dig it up but typing here so I remember.
Anyone else remember this?
gManTexas
I'm looking at the Fairy's wings and the extra blue highlights around her head and part of her body. I believe it is a great match for the Hatch Band Shell and Green at the Esplanade. Her shoulder forms the bump in front of the shell.
MrBackstop
I'm still in Back Bay Fens. Let me throw this out there.
The bird on the "T" is an Ipswich Sparrow. This road is on the Northhern part of the fens alongside the Mass Turnpike.
Our girl in the Image is Erin (Ireland) on the backside of the John Boyle O'Reilly Monument at the corner of Boylston and Fenway. Her two sons "Poetry and Patriotism", are sitting on the monument by her sides.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... tedIndex=1
The top half of the stone circle behind Erin in Image 11 represents the Boylston Street Bridge. Looking on the left side of the arch, you can see indented circle (ink well) and the feather (quill pen) representing "Poetry" and on the right you see a graphic representation of the American flag representing "Patriotism".
treetops
This 1977 Kalil Gibran plaque is across the street from the McKim building (with Xenophon and Thucydides among others):
hxxp://bostonlitdistrict.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/DSC_0177.jpg
Is the lid of the box the woman is opening an homage to the slanted copy of The Prophet that Gibran holds?
Haarstick
There's also a Pilgrim Road further down the Fens near the Short Street Stairs. Another location to check out.
Strike13 and I were going to meet up in Boston Saturday March 24. Why don't we all compile a list of the spots to check out.
For starters (and some of these have been checked already but why not take a quick look again):
Start at the library and walk down Boylston to.....
1) Leif Erikson Statue and neighboring green areas (even down to the Charles)
2) Charlesgate Park and neighboring green areas
3) Mother's Rest
4) Victory Gardens - I'd love to just check out the Path X that goes down the middle section
5) WWII Memorial and surrounding park area
6) Longfellow Duck House and where the Morse Code Memorial stood
7) Clemente Field House and where the bleachers once stood
Pilgrim Road and Short Street Stairs
Too much Strike13?
MrBackstop
Hopefully all that Nor'easter snow will be melted by then. Should make for some soft digging if it warms up though.
drunknerds
I would love pictures of all sides of the transit emergency exit right there next to Charlesgate. If I were to bury a treasure I'd do it back there because it provides the most cover and there arent many trees in the immediate area
gManTexas
Haarstick wrote::
There's also a Pilgrim Road further down the Fens near the Short Street Stairs. Another location to check out.
Strike13 and I were going to meet up in Boston Saturday March 24. Why don't we all compile a list of the spots to check out.
For starters (and some of these have been checked already but why not take a quick look again):
Start at the library and walk down Boylston to.....
1) Leif Erikson Statue and neighboring green areas (even down to the Charles)
2) Charlesgate Park and neighboring green areas
3) Mother's Rest
4) Victory Gardens - I'd love to just check out the Path X that goes down the middle section
5) WWII Memorial and surrounding park area
6) Longfellow Duck House and where the Morse Code Memorial stood
7) Clemente Field House and where the bleachers once stood
Pilgrim Road and Short Street Stairs
Too much Strike13?
I doubt anything would be buried in the Victory Gardens, where people are constantly digging.
You need to bring cameras, no, you won't look like tourists at all!
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Reeds, reeds and more reeds. Agassiz Rd basically bridges over the muddy river. One side is the victory gardens and Mother’s Rest and the other side has the war memorial, Rose Garden, Clemente field, etc.
It’s actually difficult to see anything from the duck house because the reeds on both sides of the river are like 8’ tall.
How about in 1980 or so. Didn't they do some work to beat back the reeds and brush? Also, what about this time of year or early spring before the trees are in bloom? Is it possible to see both the WWII memorial and V Gardens from the area of the Duck House?
BTW, I am on the fence about whether "all the clues" can be seen from the dig spot. We just don't have enough data to be able to tell yet.
strike13
Haarstick wrote::
There's also a Pilgrim Road further down the Fens near the Short Street Stairs. Another location to check out.
Strike13 and I were going to meet up in Boston Saturday March 24. Why don't we all compile a list of the spots to check out.
For starters (and some of these have been checked already but why not take a quick look again):
Start at the library and walk down Boylston to.....
1) Leif Erikson Statue and neighboring green areas (even down to the Charles)
2) Charlesgate Park and neighboring green areas
3) Mother's Rest
4) Victory Gardens - I'd love to just check out the Path X that goes down the middle section
5) WWII Memorial and surrounding park area
6) Longfellow Duck House and where the Morse Code Memorial stood
7) Clemente Field House and where the bleachers once stood
Pilgrim Road and Short Street Stairs
Too much Strike13?
Not too much at all..sounds perfect!!! maybe also some eating drinking and thinking at a place nearby too...before we dig it up! haha! You never know...
Haarstick
Strike13 - we'll start with lunch and cocktails and go from there!
gMan - I agree. In Chicago, I doubt very much that you could see a lot of the images from either the painting or verse from the dig site. Think about the Water Tower, the two statues at Congress, the M and B set in stone, the round marking on the symphony building, the fairy on the fountain - doubt you could see any of those from the dig site. The Lincoln Statue and the gate, yes. So one or two (to obviously help mark the spot) but more seems doubtful. My worry is that the mark will be gone since so much time has passed. I was so hoping that Morse Code statue would give us a visual clue! Wish I could find better/more pictures of the field house - maybe that held a clue....
Haarstick
A silly and likely worthless observation but you can spell out FENWAY and ITALIAN using the first letters from each line of the verse with the letters IIWFT left over. Yes, I've gone down a rabbit hole but I thought that was interesting.
MrBackstop
Here's a couple more observations concerning the Back Bay Fens.
The box is opened to form another purposeful triangle. It points toward the image of a Home Plate on Erin's right sleeve. Many people believe this is representing Home Plate at Fenway park. I see this as it pointing at the John Boyle O'Reilly Monument. If you notice the cement backing separating JBO from Erin and her sons, it is 5 sided too. And although not a perfect home plate, it is what I believe the triangle to be pointing out.
Looking at the vines on Erin's dress you will notice a small cursive "f" in the middle right side which indicates Fenway (the road) that runs around the East Side of the Back Bay Fens.
On the bottom of her dress in the 3rd square you can see where the vines have created the initials J-B-O
And if you look to the left of the bottom blue globe onto the various codes on the copper hanging material you can see a very dark square with an image in it. That image is of the Boylston Street Bridge. There is a tree in the foreground on the left a tree behind the bridge and a tree in the foreground on the right. Check it out.
Many more reasons I'm in the Fens.
BINGO
MrBackstop wrote::
Here's a couple more observations concerning the Back Bay Fens.
The box is opened to form another purposeful triangle. It points toward the image of a Home Plate on Erin's right sleeve. Many people believe this is representing Home Plate at Fenway park. I see this as it pointing at the John Boyle O'Reilly Monument. If you notice the cement backing separating JBO from Erin and her sons, it is 5 sided too. And although not a perfect home plate, it is what I believe the triangle to be pointing out.
Looking at the vines on Erin's dress you will notice a small cursive "f" in the middle right side which indicates Fenway (the road) that runs around the East Side of the Back Bay Fens.
On the bottom of her dress in the 3rd square you can see where the vines have created the initials J-B-O
And if you look to the left of the bottom blue globe onto the various codes on the copper hanging material you can see a very dark square with an image in it. That image is of the Boylston Street Bridge. There is a tree in the foreground on the left a tree behind the bridge and a tree in the foreground on the right. Check it out.
Many more reasons I'm in the Fens.
That is a bit difficult to follow with bridge/trees that you mentioned. Can you highlight the image to show exactly what you are talking about? I’m not discounting what you say, I just don’t understand where to look.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
Here's a couple more observations concerning the Back Bay Fens.
The box is opened to form another purposeful triangle. It points toward the image of a Home Plate on Erin's right sleeve. Many people believe this is representing Home Plate at Fenway park. I see this as it pointing at the John Boyle O'Reilly Monument. If you notice the cement backing separating JBO from Erin and her sons, it is 5 sided too. And although not a perfect home plate, it is what I believe the triangle to be pointing out.
Looking at the vines on Erin's dress you will notice a small cursive "f" in the middle right side which indicates Fenway (the road) that runs around the East Side of the Back Bay Fens.
On the bottom of her dress in the 3rd square you can see where the vines have created the initials J-B-O
And if you look to the left of the bottom blue globe onto the various codes on the copper hanging material you can see a very dark square with an image in it. That image is of the Boylston Street Bridge. There is a tree in the foreground on the left a tree behind the bridge and a tree in the foreground on the right. Check it out.
Many more reasons I'm in the Fens.
While I like these thoughts, we have to be careful about digital zooming and manipulation. I know things are hidden in the images, but they would have to be viewable in the printed book.
MrBackstop
Bingo
I'm talking about the square located next to the right of the Ipswich's tail, below the checkerboard, just to the left above the blue globe at the bottom. It is a darker square, not obvious at all.
Gman
I didn't use anything to enhance the image. Just used the wiki image to examine up close.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
Bingo
I'm talking about the square located next to the right of the Ipswich's tail, below the checkerboard, just to the left above the blue globe at the bottom. It is a darker square, not obvious at all.
Gman
I didn't use anything to enhance the image. Just used the wiki image to examine up close.
How are you able to discern that the box is the boylston st bridge?
MrBackstop
Strike, so many clues in this Image point to Back Bay Fens.
The John Boyle O'Reilly monument on that corner with Erin and her boys on the other side is the major waymarker in this puzzle. And of course the Boylston Bridge is along side that monument. That's why I tie this into the Boylston St Bridge and not the others in the park.
Like I mentioned once before, the image of Erin in front of that circle is not a window. It is the Bridge going over Muddy River and its reflection in the water. The circle in the background is not a planet or moon. It is the opening of the other side of the Bridge with the light and reflection underneath.
strike13
Craziest thing I have thought as of recent with reference to the image and the bird. I apologize ahead of time, but please bear with me
Trying to get at this puzzle from any and all angles.... Any way at allllll the bird could be the whole Fens? Kind of even looks like the Fens has a beak.
https://imgur.com/a/YMmjl
Didn't draw it out the best, but every time I go to the map I find myself just zooming in on the bird like green part of the satellite view...
The beak would be around the Westland Gate/JBO statute, and the grabbing claw, over toward the field house. I also always thought the grabbing claw was a symbol for digging.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
Strike, so many clues in this Image point to Back Bay Fens.
The John Boyle O'Reilly monument on that corner with Erin and her boys on the other side is the major waymarker in this puzzle. And of course the Boylston Bridge is along side that monument. That's why I tie this into the Boylston St Bridge and not the others in the park.
Like I mentioned once before, the image of Erin in front of that circle is not a window. It is the Bridge going over Muddy River and its reflection in the water. The circle in the background is not a planet or moon. It is the opening of the other side of the Bridge with the light and reflection underneath.
I am not disagreeing about the Fens, I am merely asking how you thought that bottom square by the sphere/globe was the bridge. I agree with most of what you are saying, I am just wondering how I can see that it resembles a bridge.
MrBackstop
I can just see the image pretty clearly on my computer.
Now truth be known, I am an illustrator, graphic designer, and color pencil portrait artist. As I look at the layering technique that JPP used in his artwork I can see all kinds of hidden images in is works. I have done this type of things in my artwork before in order to give my client an extra surprise when they look at the details. Kind of a nice touch I like to add.
Other representations of Image 11 might not be too clear and very difficult to discern. I have an ability to separate the different hues and color saturations from years of experience. I know that doesn't help you much if you can't "see" the lines coming thru but they are there in my computer.
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
I am an illustrator, graphic designer, and color pencil portrait artist.
Good then you know that every time a illustration is reproduced, it looses definition.
So original. ----------------------------------------0
Photographed for the layup -------------------- 1
Layup Retouched.------------------------------
Photographed for the plate ---------------------2
Plate produced ----------------------------------- 3
Printing -------------------------------------------- 4
Scanning for your computer (raw) ------------- 5
conversion to the .jpg you are looking at -----6
So you are telling us you see hidden images in the pictures, that only a trained eye can spot in the 6 + generation from the original painting... OK then
MrBackstop
Yep, and I would think several others could too. The version on the wiki page is pretty good. The version in my reproduced book is way too muddy to see any details.
I've also noticed how some people have interpreted the dark square on the opposite side of her to be the number "2" but it's not...it's a Capital "Z".
BINGO
MrBackstop wrote::
Yep, and I would think several others could too. The version on the wiki page is pretty good. The version in my reproduced book is way too muddy to see any details.
I've also noticed how some people have interpreted the dark square on the opposite side of her to be the number "2" but it's not...it's a Capital "Z".
I always thought that it was a 7. I can’t really see the bottom well enough to see a full Z, but it certainly could be.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
Here's a couple more observations concerning the Back Bay Fens.
The box is opened to form another purposeful triangle. It points toward the image of a Home Plate on Erin's right sleeve. Many people believe this is representing Home Plate at Fenway park. I see this as it pointing at the John Boyle O'Reilly Monument. If you notice the cement backing separating JBO from Erin and her sons, it is 5 sided too. And although not a perfect home plate, it is what I believe the triangle to be pointing out.
Looking at the vines on Erin's dress you will notice a small cursive "f" in the middle right side which indicates Fenway (the road) that runs around the East Side of the Back Bay Fens.
On the bottom of her dress in the 3rd square you can see where the vines have created the initials J-B-O
And if you look to the left of the bottom blue globe onto the various codes on the copper hanging material you can see a very dark square with an image in it. That image is of the Boylston Street Bridge. There is a tree in the foreground on the left a tree behind the bridge and a tree in the foreground on the right. Check it out.
Many more reasons I'm in the Fens.
In examining her dress more, this does appear to be a bridge..
https://imgur.com/a/pCPWw
What do you think backstop
MrBackstop
Yeah, that certainly could be representing a bridge and I wouldn't discount any ideas someone has. I want to see somebody get a chance to dig this casque up. There are so many possibilities with this artwork and all the clues.
My thought is that the vines and squares represent a straightened out version of Back Bay Fens and the Bridges.
The squares within the larger rectangle of Erin's dress are the main sections of the Back Bay Fens between the bridges. The space at the top is the Boylston St Bridge, the space between the top and middle square is the Agassiz Road Bridge, the space between the middle and bottom square is the Emerald Necklace Bridge and the space below the bottom square represents the Park Dr Bridge.
At least that's how I see it.
strike13
I would like to share this fens Westland Gate lion potential image match... I have always found this portion of her hair a little off for it to even represent the wharves, however now I think I got it!
https://imgur.com/a/5wffy
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
I would like to share this fens Westland Gate lion image potential image... I have always found this portion of her hair a little off for it to even represent the wharves, however now I think I got it!
https://imgur.com/a/5wffy
Wow. I like this, and I hate like 99.9% of image matches i see
MrBackstop
Strike, that Lion is a great find. Nice match.
strike13
drunknerds wrote::
Wow. I like this, and I hate like 99.9% of image matches i see
And one more potential image match i see. I see a bell in her hand. Also, I have found that Isabella Stewart Gardner has a nickname of Belle.
The Boston society pages called her by many names, including "Belle," "Donna Isabella," "Isabella of Boston," and "Mrs. Jack".
Anyway, her house/museum is right there by the fens and i noticed that it also has the same design on the side as is shown in the image woman's hand with the bell (possibly for Isabelle) in it to signify the area of her home and museum.
https://imgur.com/a/SH5vJ
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
And one more potential image match i see. I see a bell in her hand.
https://imgur.com/a/SH5vJ
Why do all that just to highlight a building that's somewhere near the route, but not generally needed to solve the puzzle?
drunknerds
It's definitely a decent spot though, even if it's not a bell.
Wonder if it matches some streets in the area
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Why do all that just to highlight a building that's somewhere near the route, but not generally needed to solve the puzzle?
Eh, the answer to this is "because that's what Preiss did, for some weird reason."
anus905
look to Boston's history for your bell answer...it's not hard...
strike13
anus905 wrote::
look to Boston's history for your bell answer...it's not hard...
Get off image 11 with that attitude, we dont want or need this behavior. Keep to yourself if you have nothing productive to say. Nothing is easy josh.
anus905
i was trying to HELP you. chill.
BINGO
anus905 wrote::
i was trying to HELP you. chill.
If want to “HELP” and be a productive, respectable member here, start by sharing your wisdom. You haven’t offered any information in regards to Boston or image 11.
Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone makes wrong assumptions. Everyone gets frustrated when the dots don’t connect. The last thing people need is empty advice from someone who claims to have all the answers, but still can’t seem to pass the tests.
anus905
i did. you guys deleted it all so gtfoutta here...
BINGO
anus905 wrote::
i did. you guys deleted it all so gtfoutta here...
You’ve never posted anything about Boston. Also, how can anyone delete your posts? The only stuff that is gone is when you got banned. Both times.
anus905
lol you cant ban me, all you can do is scrub my shit. i can still log on with those accounts.
NYCNative
anus905 wrote::
lol you cant ban me, all you can do is scrub my
shit.
i can still log on with those accounts.
Hey butthole, (by the way, very fitting name for you),
Take a long walk off a short pier and make the world a better place. Please hold wicket's hand firmly while you do it.
anus905
dude take all that negative energy and use it to solve a clue. youre exhausting. how do you not stroke out?
jovialowl
New here but been working on this for a little while here's what I've come up with. I could very well be totally wrong, but at the very least maybe it will help people look at something differently.
Starting point: BPL
If Thucydides is North of Xenophon
Head West 5 "Steps"
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
If we say steps are blocks you end at St Clement Eucharist Shrine. I haven't seen this referenced as a possibility before.
The front is reminiscent of the painting:
https://catholicpilgrimagesites.files.w ... c02182.jpg
Google street view shows the building under facade renovations so linked the picture above.
The Back of the Shrine on Ipswich street is similar to the "castle on the box":https://goo.gl/maps/Pvn3KPrQrR82
If we keep going down Boylston we get to the Intersection of Boylston and CharlesGate:
https://goo.gl/maps/FkoeWN3LMB92
and further down
https://goo.gl/maps/FkoeWN3LMB92
This could be a straightforward meaning for a tower of green lights as I'm almost certain the light poles were all painted green.
If you are on Bowker Overpass you can see the Fenway Park as well:
https://goo.gl/maps/YYtGvAZZgv62
Face the water back to the stairs would put you facing towards the Charles River (Home - Dirty Water Reference)
For All the letters are here to see. Could be taken two ways in my opinion.
The Victory Gardens are definitely a good possibility.
The other way I've thought of is to read it as All the letters are Here(ford) to See(C - Commonwealth Ave or to C - Charlesgate)
The cross streets from Boston Commons go in alphabetical order Arlington Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exiter, Fairfield, Gloucester,Hereford
So maybe this is direction to cross over Bowker Bridge
18 days and 12 hours works for Paul Revere, but I'm not sure how it fits into the directions.
If you convert to hours its 444 hours. 444 Commonwealth Avenue is roughly at Charlesgate Park.
The numbers jump
from 418:
https://goo.gl/maps/cQzj9afj1As
to 464:
https://goo.gl/maps/kG9e2tbFMSK2
Lit by Lamplight would represent Charlesgate Park (Globe Lamps)
In Truth, Be Free
Possibly a reference to Leif Erikson as he is the "True" finder of North America
Again this is just my take after reading as much as I could from Pbworks and doing my own research.
MrBackstop
Jovial, keep it coming. I like seeing people throw there thoughts out there. We are all right until we're wrong. Welcome aboard.
erexere
Today I read an August 22nd, 1862 letter from Lincoln to Horace Greeley. It ends roughly this way:
"...;and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personalwish that all men every where could be free."
I wonder if that's a possible connect to "In truth, be free."
JamesV
erexere wrote::
I wonder if that's a possible connect to "In truth, be free."
Could the "Truth" line be an indication that the final location could be somewhere in Cambridge, near Harvard University? That town is in Middlesex County (the Middle Section?) as opposed to Boston's Suffolk County, and the school's motto, "Veritas", literally means "Truth."
jovialowl
The Harvard Club is almost across the street from the Leif Erikson statue and 2C.
I really think the 18th day 12th hour is the key to finding this. Imo it has to be coordinates by lamp posts fence posts or something to the location. The 2 other solves got pretty precise locations via directions.
jovialowl
Has anyone looked into The book of Icelanders? I was doing some research on Leif and came across it.
It was compiled in 1122 (above the flower in image 11?)
And is split into ten short chapter same as the secret?)
Chapter 4 deals with "fixing the calendar" could be a reference to 18 days and 12 hours
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Íslendingabók
I also wonder if although Boston is meant to be Italian since we already have a Greek reference in the verse and the painting is the cover maybe Boston incorporates things from other locales? Leif Erikson being one. Part of me wonders if BP was just excited by the Leif statue being in Boston and went from there disregarding staying solely reliant on Italy or perhaps as a snub of sorts to Italy (In truth be free) saying Italians didn't discover North America.
JoshCornell
the 18 days 12 hours is from Longefellow's poem about the ride of Paul Revere...
jovialowl
Yeah just trying to figure it out. Thought there could be an underlying reason to the 18 and 12.
Additionally if I wanted to do some ground probes how friendly is Boston to this? I'd be open to locations and send pictures if anyone was interested. I saw someone mention talking to the parks Dept before digging but is just probing with a rod generally ok?
strike13
jovialowl wrote::
Yeah just trying to figure it out. Thought there could be an underlying reason to the 18 and 12.
Additionally if I wanted to do some ground probes how friendly is Boston to this? I'd be open to locations and send pictures if anyone was interested. I saw someone mention talking to the parks Dept before digging but is just probing with a rod generally ok?
There is absolutely another reason to 18 and 12, in addition to it tying the verse to Boston via Revere, Longfellow, perhaps even Dawes or Prescott too, even Middlesex. I have, and will continue to believe, 18 and 12 are
also
directions to the dig site.
Probe & dig here all you want, just use your head with when/where/etc, and be respectful to the land/park/neighborhood.
Spiritr
jovialowl wrote::
I also wonder if although Boston is meant to be Italian since we already have a Greek reference in the verse and the painting is the cover maybe Boston incorporates things from other locales? Leif Erikson being one. Part of me wonders if BP was just excited by the Leif statue being in Boston and went from there disregarding staying solely reliant on Italy or perhaps as a snub of sorts to Italy (In truth be free) saying Italians didn't discover North America.
at this point nothing is meant to be. You indeed noticed a very questionable phenomenon. And I suggest you trust no one but yourself.
erexere
I like the idea of recognizing the Revere connection of the 18th day 12th hour lines. Maybe there's a way that Byron could've seen to utilize those numbers as a way to a dig spot similarly to Chicago's 10 x 13.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I like the idea of recognizing the Revere connection of the 18th day 12th hour lines. Maybe there's a way that Byron could've seen to utilize those numbers as a way to a dig spot similarly to Chicago's 10 x 13.
although in Chicago he called out 10x13 as a clue to find the casque
18th day 12th hour, not so much.
audimike78
Hi, I'm brand new to this book, I'm really not sure how I've never heard of this hunt. But I'm totally in it now. I have a theory on Boston that makes sense. (To me anyway) I think this is a Christopher Columbus to Leif Erikson puzzle. And I feel it's really hidden in the painting.
JoshCornell
yes ex, and ive already told you guys how to do it, if you are paying close enough attention...
BINGO
JoshCornell wrote::
yes ex, and ive already told you guys how to do it, if you are paying close enough attention...
I’ll bite. Just come out with it Josh, what’s your 18/12 theory? You’ve never mentioned anything here about it. Before or after your solves got scrubbed. Before, during or after you actually visited Boston. You’ve actually been quiet in regards to Boston.
Let’s start over and see what you’ve got.
brianmcfarland
Image 11 Verse 3 Solution Boston
The image is a merge of the Columbus Statue, Kelleher Rose Garden and Angel at the WWII Memorial. The Jewel box at the center of the picture is a combination of The Boston University Castle (an important vector point at 140 degrees), the turrets from Trinity Church (architect Henry Hobson Richardson) in Copley Square (the starting point of the verse) and the T entrance at the Boston Public Library at Copley Square.
The Cask should be found at the following location:
Near the lamplight base south of the World War II Memorial in the Back Bay Fens. There are five indicators in the verse and image for this location.
1) Latitude: 42.342022 (numbers are on the sleeve and above the flower) Longitude: 71.093710. The 71 is in the cement circle. The 093 is next to the palm frond in the circle (magnify 400% to see) and the 710 is near her right arm. GPS is only accurate within 9 meters.
2) Vector points 140 and 77. Numbers are in the cement circle and the 0 is a hole in the concrete. The vector 140 connects Boston University Castle with the palm frond the angel holds at the WWII Memorial. The 77 vector connects the fountain in the Kelleher Rose Garden with Symphony Hall, the “home” of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
3) There is a map in her right hand that shows the emerald necklace entrance near the museum of fine arts and her fingers touch the dig site.
4) There is a small green dot visible at 200% magnification under the concrete line (sidewalk) at C 8/9. This is the only green paint on the image and it is proportional to the dig spot. The Gem is a peridot.
5) The verse: Start in Copley Square (Copley painted the picture that the fairy is based on).
If Thucydides is North of Xenophen Walpole letter to Mann (names on library façade)
Take five steps in his direction Five T stops on the Green Line “E” branch Heath Street
Copley, Prudential, Symphony, Northeastern, Museum of Fine Arts. Walk around museum on museum rd.
Then to Fenway past Gardner museum (location of
Falcon statue. Enter Emerald Necklace path.
A green tower of lights in the middle section Green Monster at Fenway Park is in the distance.
Near those that pass the coliseum with metal Fenway Park on Yawkey Way/Jersey Street is near the Kelleher Rose Garden/WWII Memorial
Face the water with your back to the stairs WWII Memorial south steps facing Muddy River
Feel at home You are facing Symphony Hall where BSO is “home”
All the letters are here to see Back of Memorial lists names of all who died
18th day, 12th hour see next page map Walk 12 + 18 pavers
Lit by lamplight There is a street light near dig site
In truth, be free Near White Cherry Tree. Longfellow (author of Paul Revere’s Ride ) lived in same house while at Harvard
as George Washington “I cannot tell a lie”.
I am trying to upload a map of the dig site, photos of the sidewalk and other photos that are found in the image but am struggling with this site.
elizabethmcfarland
Image 11 Verse 3 Solution Boston
The image is a merge of the Columbus Statue, Kelleher Rose Garden and Angel at the WWII Memorial. The Jewel box at the center of the picture is a combination of The Boston University Castle (an important vector point at 140 degrees), the turrets from Trinity Church (architect Henry Hobson Richardson) in Copley Square (the starting point of the verse) and the T entrance at the Boston Public Library at Copley Square.
The Cask should be found at the following location:
Near the lamplight base south of the World War II Memorial in the Back Bay Fens. There are five indicators in the verse and image for this location.
1) Latitude: 42.342022 (numbers are on the sleeve and above the flower) Longitude: 71.093710. The 71 is in the cement circle. The 093 is next to the palm frond in the circle (magnify 400% to see) and the 710 is near her right arm. GPS is only accurate within 9 meters.
2) Vector points 140 and 77. Numbers are in the cement circle and the 0 is a hole in the concrete. The vector 140 connects Boston University Castle with the palm frond the angel holds at the WWII Memorial. The 77 vector connects the fountain in the Kelleher Rose Garden with Symphony Hall, the “home” of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
3) There is a map in her right hand that shows the emerald necklace entrance near the museum of fine arts and her fingers touch the dig site.
4) There is a small green dot visible at 200% magnification under the concrete line (sidewalk) at C 8/9. This is the only green paint on the image and it is proportional to the dig spot. The Gem is a peridot.
5) The verse: Start in Copley Square (Copley painted the picture that the fairy is based on).
If Thucydides is North of Xenophen Walpole letter to Mann (names on library façade)
Take five steps in his direction Five T stops on the Green Line “E” branch Heath Street
Copley, Prudential, Symphony, Northeastern, Museum of Fine Arts. Walk around museum on museum rd.
Then to Fenway past Gardner museum (location of
Falcon statue. Enter Emerald Necklace path.
A green tower of lights in the middle section Green Monster at Fenway Park is in the distance.
Near those that pass the coliseum with metal Fenway Park on Yawkey Way/Jersey Street is near the Kelleher Rose Garden/WWII Memorial
Face the water with your back to the stairs WWII Memorial south steps facing Muddy River
Feel at home You are facing Symphony Hall where BSO is “home”
All the letters are here to see Back of Memorial lists names of all who died
18th day, 12th hour see next page map Walk 12 + 18 pavers
Lit by lamplight There is a street light near dig site
In truth, be free Near White Cherry Tree. Longfellow (author of Paul Revere’s Ride ) lived in same house while at Harvard
as George Washington “I cannot tell a lie”.
I will attempt to post a Map, The image with notes on it and several photos which have not appeared on any websites.
elizabethmcfarland
Face the water Your back to the stairs...
Twelfth hour …….walk 12 tiles on the circle to first spoke
Eighteenth day…….walk 18 tiles toward lamplight
Right 9 feet to lamplight, which is 14 feet from cherry tree trunk.
Maybe 4 ft off sidewalk per the 4 in the painting at C7
Still trying to upload photos. Site won't take them. Anyone can help?
Mister EZ
Brian...er....Elizabeth....?
It helps to read the other threads and posts.
Like this post from Goldengate that was created a few days ago:
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2265#p142471
JoshCornell
elizabeth, youre wrong for one very important reason...see longfellow...nice try though!
strike13
JoshCornell wrote::
elizabeth, youre wrong for one very important reason...see longfellow...nice try though!
Please. Stop.
Not in a rude way, but you are not in a position to be telling people what is wrong or what is right. You are the same as all of us, not knowing fully.
JoshCornell
i can say whatever the f**k i want thanks...i think the clue is pretty straightforward and obvious...if you look at what the longfellow poem tells you...
erexere
JoshCornell wrote::
i can say whatever the f**k i want thanks...i think the clue is pretty straightforward and obvious...if you look at what the longfellow poem tells you...
...it should be obvious, but it's really not.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." It's our many personal views or mental constructs that deter us from seeing what was at one time straightforward and obvious to Preiss.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
it should be obvious...
Preiss claimed to have received over 700 submissions to the puzzle before he was contacted by the group in Chicago, and not a single one was deemed worthy of a response by him as far as we know. If he was applying the same standards, that means that not one of those submissions had the right area of the correct park, which is the best you can say about the Chicago group when they first contacted Preiss. Make of that what you will, but it seems pretty obvious to me that there was very little that was obvious about this puzzle, even back in 1982.
MrBackstop
JoshCornell wrote::
i can say whatever the f**k i want thanks...i think the clue is pretty straightforward and obvious...if you look at what the longfellow poem tells you...
Why would we look at longfellow's poem? The Image and Verse are enough to find the casque.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
Why would we look at longfellow's poem? The Image and Verse are enough to find the casque.
Or why would one look at Michigan, mind boggling.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
The Image and Verse are enough to find the casque.
You would think. And yet...
erexere
I think it's fair that Preiss had the expectation that someone had a decent education, that some intertextuality would generate some good old fashioned sleuthery.
How can you perceive a Paul Revere reference and think Longfellow is unimportant? How can the poem be named "The Landlord's Tale" and yet a line like "feel at home" not stir some sense of recognition?
MrBackstop
erexere wrote::
I think it's fair that Preiss had the expectation that someone had a decent education, that some intertextuality would generate some good old fashioned sleuthery.
How can you perceive a Paul Revere reference and think Longfellow is unimportant? How can the poem be named "The Landlord's Tale" and yet a line like "feel at home" not stir some sense of recognition?
Agreed. Either you have the education of historic context or he could lead you to search for more info.
JoshCornell
the verse hints at the poem so you must read the poem and visit the paul revere house, and old north church, where you learn the TRUTH. and therein lies the answer to your clue. its obvious and very straightforward.
drunknerds
Hi, gang!
I'm pretty sure I have solved one of the most fiendish puzzles of all time,
however I can't solve the puzzle of "how to post pictures on the internet."
I've seen that at least a dozen times, and it always gets me.
BINGO
drunknerds wrote::
Hi, gang!
I'm pretty sure I have solved one of the most fiendish puzzles of all time,
however I can't solve the puzzle of "how to post pictures on the internet."
I've seen that at least a dozen times, and it always gets me.
Wow. Goes ice cold on us and then comes back red hot!
Welcome back to the madness DN.
Mister EZ
drunknerds wrote::
Hi, gang!
I'm pretty sure I have solved one of the most fiendish puzzles of all time,
however I can't solve the puzzle of "how to post pictures on the internet."
I've seen that at least a dozen times, and it always gets me.
DN...
It helps to read the other threads and posts.
Like this post from Goldengate that was created a few days ago:
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2265#p142471
erexere
drunknerds wrote::
Hi, gang!
I'm pretty sure I have solved one of the most fiendish puzzles of all time,
however I can't solve the puzzle of "how to post pictures on the internet."
I've seen that at least a dozen times, and it always gets me.
Guardian
drunknerds wrote::
Hi, gang!
I'm pretty sure I have solved one of the most fiendish puzzles of all time,
however I can't solve the puzzle of "how to post pictures on the internet."
I've seen that at least a dozen times, and it always gets me.
Draw it on a Post-It note and stick it on your screen. ::runs::
BINGO
elizabethmcfarland wrote::
Face the water Your back to the stairs...
Twelfth hour …….walk 12 tiles on the circle to first spoke
Eighteenth day…….walk 18 tiles toward lamplight
Right 9 feet to lamplight, which is 14 feet from cherry tree trunk.
Maybe 4 ft off sidewalk per the 4 in the painting at C7
Still trying to upload photos. Site won't take them. Anyone can help?
With all due respect, I’ve been to this spot dozens of times (including yesterday) and your tile count is bizarre. There are hundreds of stone/slate “tiles” of random sizes and patterns that make up the walkway around the memorial.
12 “tiles” from the stairs gets you only a few feet away from where you started. Nowhere close to the “spoke” that I believe you are referring to. I’m sorry, but these directions do not make any sense on location.
Can you explain what you mean by “tiles” a little more in depth or possibly upload the photos that you have?
You will need to use a service like imgur, photobucket, Flickr, etc. to upload your photos and post them here.
catherwood
BINGO wrote::
You will need to use a service like imgur, photobucket, Flickr, etc. to upload your photos and post them here.
to be more specific, post the LINKS here. Don't even bother with BBcode formatting, just paste the URL. The system will make it clickable, and people will click if you describe what they will see.
elizabethmcfarland
https://www.flickr.com/photos/156936251@N07/
?
photos and details on image 11.
BINGO
elizabethmcfarland wrote::
https://www.flickr.com/photos/156936251@N07/?
photos and details on image 11.
Thanks for the pictures. The “spoke” that you mentioned is what I was assuming that you were talking about. I’m still a little confused as to how to properly count the stones/“tiles”. There just seems to be no regular, clear or simple way to count 12 of them. The same goes for 18 tiles on the “spoke”. However, the rest of your theory does lead to a specific area.
I am local to Boston and always willing to explore just about any theory. Are you looking for someone to probe/test your spot? Have you already explored this area? Let me/us know what your intentions are. There are a couple of Boston locals who are always willing to help and investigate. If you are planning to work the site on your own, I understand and respect that route as well. Either way, I wish you the best of luck.
elizabethmcfarland
Please go ahead and probe it. I am convinced this is the spot because it is under (former) lamplight and near the I cannot tell a lie/in truth be free cherry tree. The cherry tree blooms in mid may so it is easier to tell it is a cherry at that time and not now. Preiss used this to tie Longfellow (Paul Rever's Ride) to George Washington. When Longfellow was a professor at Harvard he lived in the same house as George Washington did during the Revolutionary War. I would try four feet off the walkway at paver #30 starting at the step and walk the edge.
erexere
Reviewing some old posts, I noticed since August of 2014, I've been highly interested in the 2Cs site. It's been dug a bunch, but so was Cleveland and Chicago before casque turned up. The 2Cs are like mini amphitheater along the water there. I see the city Amphipolis come up often when looking into Thucydides, so I wonder if there's some kind of "amphi-" connection to "face the water"
I also noticed I had forgotten that I had the idea before that Thucydides and Xenophon make a great reverse acronym like hint for T and X or "T_X" or simply "tax", thus making Boston the perfect place to bring their names into the fold.
On some level, even tbough they dont look like the lreferred font, those two big unmistakable letter-S's on the Somerset gate must be substituting for money signs, $$. I continue to wonder how to proceed with it and whether the citgo sign plays an important role in which direction to take 5 steps. Lots of things to think about still.
Good luck Bostonians!
elizabethmcfarland
The reason i believe the cask is near the WWII Memorial is the following:
1) Latitude: 42.342022 (numbers are on the sleeve and above the flower) Longitude: 71.093710. The 71 is in the cement circle. The 093 is next to the palm frond in the circle (magnify 400% to see) and the 710 is near her right arm.
2) Vector points 140 and 77. Numbers are in the cement circle and the 0 is a hole in the concrete. The vector 140 connects Boston University Castle with the palm frond the angel holds at the WWII Memorial. The 77 vector connects the fountain in the Kelleher Rose Garden with Symphony Hall, the “home” of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, hence the music note.
3) There is a map in her right hand that shows the emerald necklace entrance near the Museum of Fine Arts and her fingers touch the dig site.
4) There is a small green dot visible at 200% magnification under the concrete line (sidewalk) at C 8/9. This is the only green paint on the image and it is proportional to the dig spot. The Gem is a peridot
Mister EZ
Ahhhhhh.....I can only magnify 300%....! ! !
That darn JJP.
JoshCornell
someone from here was in the keller rose garden when i was there...who was it...he was phone conferencing with someone else (i assumed bingo or strike) and went over to charlesgate after lol...
BINGO
JoshCornell wrote::
someone from here was in the keller rose garden when i was there...who was it...he was phone conferencing with someone else (i assumed bingo or strike) and went over to charlesgate after lol...
You should know what Bingo and Strike13 look like. We met with you at the fountain in front of the Boston Public Library. Talked for a little while and both of us went back to work. Do you not remember that?
JoshCornell
yea, he was phone conferencing with someone (i thought one of you two) lol...i know it wasnt you guys there...lol
drunknerds
Has anyone dug in that small spot between where the utility box used to be and the lamp?
BINGO
drunknerds wrote::
Has anyone dug in that small spot between where the utility box used to be and the lamp?
That spot is Swiss cheese my friend.
https://flic.kr/p/23kz23r
One thing that many people do not know about that specific spot is that there are actually 2 electrical boxes in that spot. One is the famous one that was popular from the google street view image. The other box was/is located just a few feet away on the opposite side of the light pole. It is still there, but now it has been replaced by an electrical handhole box.
I can’t find any specific evidence that it ever had the same metal box as the other one, but if it did, it would fit nicely with the 2 “tables” separated by the globe at the bottom of image 11.
erexere
The line "with metal walls" is that area inside the metal fencing. Thinking of a fence as a wall seems odd to me, probably because we think of walls as solid, whereas a fence is a mesh.
JamesV
I was passing through Union Station in Washington, DC earlier today, and I spent some time admiring the building's architecture. Out in front of the station is a monument to Christopher Columbus-- the statue's hair and hand positions reminded me of Image 11, as did the globe on top, next to the birds in profile. The quotes engraved on the side of the building were awesome to see up close, and reminded me of the last line in Verse 3.
Definitely NOT making any claims that the "Boston" casque is in DC... just hoping to spark some creative thinking on this one. Have a great weekend!
JamesV
MrSeabass wrote::
They look nothing alike. At all.
Well, mission accomplished.
maltedfalcon
JamesV wrote::
Well, mission accomplished.
JamesV
MrSeabass wrote::
They look nothing alike. At all.
Interesting... passed through the Union Station area again today, but I hadn't realized that the Smithsonian's Postal Museum (established 1993, formerly the Washington DC Post Office) was right across the street. Could a Post Office, or similar, be the basis for that line about "All the letters / Are here to see"?
I'll cross-post a few more thoughts in the Verse 3 thread, about Boston this time, but just wanted to give Mr. Seabass credit for challenging me to take a second look at things.
Trapezoid
Just thought I'd share these probably-irrelevant pictures of Charlesgate East, back in 1914, shortly after the construction of the Boylston Street Line (the Green Line.)
I knew the brick circles were built in the 60s, but it's mind boggling to discover that this dumpy little utility building has survived for over a century. These images are tagged "ventilation chamber" in the Boston Transit Archive. Present day, based on the signage I'm 99% sure it houses access stairs to the train tunnel. Again, probably irrelevant, but it's nice and spooky to think about the treasure possibly being buried so close to a secret stairway leading beneath the river.
There was also a fancy old lamp in front of the building. A boring grey one is there now, but I wonder if the original still stood in 1981.
lost
strike13 wrote::
Def not! I know all things Cheers...haha...I work there once or twice a month...been there for over. It was the bull and finch though, since 69
Cheers
https://www.chibarproject.com/Reviews/Bull/Bull.htm
erexere
Trapezoid, nice work on those 1914 pics.
Kalessin
That ventilation building would be part of some water pump works, not a train tunnel.
JoshCornell
thats defintiely a pig lost lol.
Trapezoid
Kalessin wrote::
That ventilation building would be part of some water pump works, not a train tunnel.
There may be pump stuff in there, but the sign matches the ones on sidewalk hatches. The building's also got that siamese standpipe on the side.
Kalessin
Argh, I'm totally wrong, I confused the small building with another structure. Yes, this building is a ventilation shaft, standpipe entry, and probably an intact stairway to the Green Line subway tunnel below.
I think the sign is for local fire department response or fire stair emergency exit (that would be the red area with a yellow "F") with G-19 as a Green Line location reference. The green color of the rest of the sign refers to the Green Line.
On the sign in the sidewalk picture, the rest of the sign is red for the Red Line with location reference R-23, R for Red Line. That picture was taken at the intersection of Massachusetts Avenue and Remington Street in Cambridge, at a section of stores bookended by Boston Burger and Cafe Sushi, at 1105 Mass Ave. You can blame my teenage years hanging out in Harvard Square for being able to instantly identify the location from the shapes of the storefronts and stairs.
At a guess, they put the signs in "obvious code" without saying "Fire Department Green Line Entry Point G-19" because those signs invite trespassers into fire stairs and tunnels... :/
lost
JoshCornell wrote::
thats defintiely a pig lost lol.
just my opinion 50% pig head & 50% cow head.Male cow may refer to: Bull, so for me its not a big leap to Bull & Finch Pub or someone named Bulfinch. jjp images are not exact, so keep an open mind hunters.
Trapezoid
WhiteRabbit wrote::
If Thucydides is
North of Xenophon
Take five steps
In the area of his direction
Starting at Thucydides on the BPL and taking five steps in the direction of Xenophon, you end up at Shaw.
Ooh, I didn't pick up on the R/G thing, Kalessin. Anyway...
I really like this idea. Not sure what Shaw nets aside from the memorial on Beacon St, but there are tons of names on the BPL that could match to street names, monuments, etc. If anyone wants to try out other five step configurations, I grabbed them from a book on archive.org and configured them into a chart the way they're arranged on the building:
https://i.imgur.com/6xiM28n.png
"The area of his direction" could mean something on the North wall, maybe. There's a lot of different ways to land on a name, and I love the idea of Preiss making us consult this big grid to find out the real starting point.
That being said,
I kinda suspect the BPL connection is a coincidence (there are 500+ names) and right now I'm more fond of
Theta Xi
's headquarters, which is smack dab in Kenmore and has been
since 1936
.
Plus, if you tilt
ΘΞ
north, it even looks like the painting.
erexere
I'm not into the idea of reattributing Thucy and Xenop to another T and X reference beyond getting the gist of a theme on a great historic struggle which parallels our own American Revolution from the British Parliaments
TaX
ations.
I don't like Theta Chi as a visual fit either. And I don't like the BPL as a hard reference for having Thucy and Xenops names, especially since they break from the logical directional references. You don't want to commit to something that immediately starts out wrong. It would be great if Thucy really was North of Xenop, but that's not the case. Time to move on to a more idea driven concept. What kind of direction is Thucydides? North. So I think its safe to assume five steps North is going to play out as a strong focus when we find the right patch of lawn...and it will be like going to the end of ten by thirteen as in Chicago. My bet is it will connect to a two lamp situation, since Revere's signal was to "one if by land and two if by sea" - two lights from the old North church.
Trapezoid
Right, I'm just saying, if you happen to think the other clues point to the Kenmore/Fens area, there's a much closer starting point right there. (Also, Chi is a different frat. Xenophon is spelled with a Xi.)
erexere
Yeah, thanks.
I should add, it's strange that people often steer clear of thinking deeply about these puzzles with the excuse that a child could've solved these. The problem with exploring deeper historic or analog concepts is that it's also a way to get way off track. I appreciate the keep-it-simples and the occams-razors but the real problem with people is they only have to latch on to the one single creative notion that puts everything into the right context. At that point it will seem simple and the razor will shave smoothly, but to talk about simplicity at the wrong point in the conversation is only another barrier to experiencing the intent of Byron Preiss.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
but to talk about simplicity at the wrong point in the conversation is only another barrier to experiencing the intent of Byron Preiss.
And the intent was specifically to sell books and make money and before it was really even a concept, have the found casques create a viral meme that encouraged more hunters, and more book sales.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
with the excuse that a child could've solved these.
There are a lot of reasons that people have cited over the years to think that the puzzles are easy. The only one that holds up to scrutiny is that Cleveland, relatively speaking, was easy.
JoshCornell
cleveland houston charleston roanoke are seemingly the easiest (sf isnt bad either, less the last part of sf, which is hella tricky)...boston is arguably the hardest...i think sf and nyc are probably the longest (full puzzle)...although that might be secondary to mtl (which tells history of all of canada). nyc seems to be pretty easy too. imo boston is the most outstanding. im pretty sure i have the spot there, but wasnt allowed to dig. but i cant be certain for a specific reason.
BINGO
JoshCornell wrote::
. imo boston is the most outstanding. im pretty sure i have the spot there, but wasnt allowed to dig. but i cant be certain for a specific reason.
Check the date on this photo Josh. Your theory may not be as good as you hope.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
Check the date on this photo Josh. Your theory may not be as good as you hope.
Nailed it!! That's the bird!
JoshCornell
on another note...i figured out what the alien in the boston painting is!!!!
the first ufo sighting in american history!!!!
JoshCornell
omfg so good!!!!
"it was contracted into the figure of a swine"...
JoshCornell
*does a little dance*
probably my favourite clue in the whole puzzle!
strike13
JoshCornell wrote::
*does a little dance*
probably my favourite clue in the whole puzzle!
Second fave is Michigan?
jayheedan1
Has anyone considered reading the verse backward while at the Charlesgate circles for a digging spot? Facing the water, back to the first set of stairs facing the green light poles over the overpass taking five steps toward the him (green monster). Would be somewhere between the brick utility building and the first circle.
An interactive map that diggers can overlay an “X” where they have dug would be helpful if anyone has skills out there.
JoshCornell
strike13 wrote::
Second fave is Michigan?
no way, def the triple robert clue in sf...goes through crowley hubbard and parsons...the best.
BINGO
jayheedan1 wrote::
An interactive map that diggers can overlay an “X” where they have dug would be helpful if anyone has skills out there.
Just about every angle has been thought of, dug, probed, etc. This map was made from digs between 2013 to Februaryish of this year.
I gave up after a dozen new holes showed up and were never backfilled.
https://flic.kr/p/23kz23r
elizabethmcfarland
https://www.flickr.com/photos/156936251@N07/
Kalessin
It's important to remember that GPS was not available to civilians until after 1983, after The Secret was published. Military use of GPS at the time was still in its infancy; ten GPS satellites (still called "experimental") were launched between 1978 and 1985 to build the first wide-area system. Military GPS receivers were not in common use in the US armed forces until after about 1984, and Magellan produced the first handheld GPS receiver in 1989. Byron Preiss could not have used GPS for The Secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Po ... ernization
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2000276 ... f-gps.html
What civilians could use were USGS topological maps; most city and large town libraries had them, covering at least the nearby region. On the maps, latitude and longitude are expressed in degrees, minutes and seconds. Decimal style lat/long didn't come into common use until GPS was common.
The most zoomed-in USGS topo maps cover 7.5 minutes of lat/long area. The map has a mark every 2'30" (two minutes and 30 seconds), any measurement finer than that and you're using a ruler, which will lose you some precision. One degree of arc is 70 miles, one minute of arc is 1.2 miles, one second of arc is 0.2 miles. If you were in a library, you could also use a gazetteer, which would list the locations of cities and prominent landmarks, but they are generally large books not meant to be carried far.
Here's a link to the 1977 Boston topo map:
https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/Staged ... 00_geo.tif
And here's how to read it:
hxxp://www.ghosttowns.com/topotmaps.html
BINGO
Kalessin wrote::
It's important to remember that GPS was not available to civilians until after 1983, after The Secret was published. Military use of GPS at the time was still in its infancy; ten GPS satellites (still called "experimental") were launched between 1978 and 1985 to build the first wide-area system. Military GPS receivers were not in common use in the US armed forces until after about 1984, and Magellan produced the first handheld GPS receiver in 1989. Byron Preiss could not have used GPS for The Secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Po ... ernization
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2000276 ... f-gps.html
What civilians could use were USGS topological maps; most city and large town libraries had them, covering at least the nearby region. On the maps, latitude and longitude are expressed in degrees, minutes and seconds. Decimal style lat/long didn't come into common use until GPS was common.
The most zoomed-in USGS topo maps cover 7.5 minutes of lat/long area. The map has a mark every 2'30" (two minutes and 30 seconds), any measurement finer than that and you're using a ruler, which will lose you some precision. One degree of arc is 70 miles, one minute of arc is 1.2 miles, one second of arc is 0.2 miles. If you were in a library, you could also use a gazetteer, which would list the locations of cities and prominent landmarks, but they are generally large books not meant to be carried far.
Here's a link to the 1977 Boston topo map:
https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/Staged ... 00_geo.tif
And here's how to read it:
hxxp://www.ghosttowns.com/topotmaps.html
Absolutely, the most clear (in layman’s terms) explanation I have seen to date. I tried my best earlier this year to explain this to the user Bluberry?, but it just didn’t seem to sink in.
Thank you.
b
JoshCornell
BINGO!
https://ibb.co/gCKbi9
LOLOLOLOL
maltedfalcon
So the chicago image was based on the $50 with US Grant on it
and the casque was in Grant Park...
not very up on Boston, (or Salt Lake City...) but obviously this image is of pandora opening her box
This is possibly the image the boston image was based on, it is by Waterhouse,
check out the left hands and the hair color...
perhaps we need to be looking for a pump house or sewer main junction box
or even a house along the water....
strike13
maltedfalcon wrote::
So the chicago image was based on the $50 with US Grant on it
and the casque was in Grant Park...
not very up on Boston, (or Salt Lake City...) but obviously this image is of pandora opening her box
This is possibly the image the boston image was based on, it is by Waterhouse,
check out the left hands and the hair color...
perhaps we need to be looking for a pump house or sewer main junction box
or even a house along the water....
I like it Matt! Even the boat house on the Esplanade.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
So the chicago image was based on the $50 with US Grant on it
and the casque was in Grant Park...
not very up on Boston, (or Salt Lake City...) but obviously this image is of pandora opening her box
This is possibly the image the boston image was based on, it is by Waterhouse,
check out the left hands and the hair color...
perhaps we need to be looking for a pump house or sewer main junction box
or even a house along the water....
I like the hands a little more in this version of Pandora by Rosetti.
Direct Link
https://i.imgur.com/6ag2YsT.jpg
Spiritr
how about.....
this oil on canvas painting in Museum of Fine Arts,
Boston
since 1853
by
Francesco
(image 1)
Cairo
(Egypt) of Milan(Italy)
Spiritr
Because of my post?
Haarstick
Hi all -
After listening to the translation of the Japanese hints, I've been obsessing over the fact that Preiss hinted that for Verse 3 (thought to be Boston with image 11) he couldn't give any hint because it would immediately solve the puzzle. I was thinking that it was a bit odd that Preiss hadn't used any cipher puzzles - well at least as far as we know - in any other image/verses. We know he used a rebus puzzle for Milwaukee but did he use any other kind of coded, cipher puzzle for the others? What if his clue was "cipher" or "coded message"?
No there is no string of letters or numbers in the image that we are asked to decipher but what if it's the first letters of each line? Or what if we're meant to use some key words or numbers to help decode it? Eighteenth day and twelfth hour have never made much sense - yes it could be a hint to Revere but what if the numbers mean more? 42 in the painting seems pretty obvious it's the longitude since that works in the other puzzles but what if the 5 - 12 - 18 in the verse hint to something that needs to be decoded? Maybe we read every 5th letter, every 12th letter?
Also, image 11 is the only image of the 12 with shapes that look like symbols - the ones in her scarf almost look like nautical flag symbols while the ones in her neckline are odd as well - especially the one square that is slightly thinner. Is he hinting that we need to work on some sort of code?
I've been looking at different types of puzzles to see if anything would fit well but wondered if anyone has explored this angle yet???
Here's a good site that describes different types of puzzles:
https://www.braingle.com/brainteasers/codes/book.php
. I'm thinking since he mentions two Greek philosophers in the first two lines maybe the puzzle has a Greek origin?
Thoughts???
maltedfalcon
Haarstick wrote::
Hi all -
After listening to the translation of the Japanese hints, I've been obsessing over the fact that Preiss hinted that for Verse 3 (thought to be Boston with image 11) he couldn't give any hint because it would immediately solve the puzzle. I was thinking that it was a bit odd that Preiss hadn't used any cipher puzzles - well at least as far as we know - in any other image/verses. We know he used a rebus puzzle for Milwaukee but did he use any other kind of coded, cipher puzzle for the others? What if his clue was "cipher" or "coded message"?
You mean besides "SELOY"?
Spiritr
good question, someone answer him already, come on
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
You mean besides "SELOY"?
Come on Matt you are better than that.
The rebus for Milwaukee, the SELOY acrostic for St Augustine, there very well could be some type of undiscovered letter/number substitution cipher included in Boston or other puzzles.
Where have we seen that before? Oh, I remember, it was in a cryptic podcast that was released a few months ago. Remember that gem? Being part of team podcast, I would think you would be a little more open to the possibility.
-Spiritr, please don’t flood this thread with your crap. The two solved puzzles need more of your attention.
erexere
Gates McFadden holding a Borg cube.
Mister EZ
erexere wrote::
Gates McFadden holding a Borg cube.
To quote Bingo:
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7333&start=15#p143795
Haarstick
So you're suggesting, maltedfalcon, that Preiss used a rebus puzzle for Milwaukee but no other cryptograph anywhere else in the other 11 images/verses? That just sounds odd to me. You've been working on this a lot longer than me but maybe new crazy ideas can result in a found treasure.
Didn't Preiss say in the Japanese version that we should look at some of these like a cryptograph? So then why don't we? Rather than look at "Take 5 steps" as physically taking 5 steps, maybe it means more. Maybe 5 is the number key to a pattern.
And the line "All the letters are here to see". Could he mean that the answer is spelled out in the verse? That the answer is right here in the verse and we just need to unscramble it somehow? And not make sense of that line as in there are letters right in front of us but we need to actually pull a hidden clue from within the verse.
Not one perfect image match has been found in Boston yet so maybe it's time we look deeper from more of a puzzle/cryptograph angle. Again, why use a reebus in one image and never use another puzzle anywhere else?? Worth a look.......
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Preiss used a rebus puzzle for Milwaukee
True, but it's superfluous. You can know there is a casque in Milwaukee in the same way that you can know there is a casque in Chicago and Cleveland; by simply identifying the iconic building hidden in plain sight in the Image. And while the buildings disappear, they do so gradually over 5 or 6 images while the rebus seems to be a one off. You would think that if codes, internal puzzles, and ciphers were actually a part of the greater puzzle, the second one wouldn't be so hard to identify. It's not like people haven't been looking...
Haarstick
Renevator - I wasn't trying to suggest no one had thought of this before. I was curious to see if anyone reading this right now looked at this angle and if so, what types of puzzles did they apply? It's an angle I'd like to explore and I posted my question to see if anyone had gone down this path before.
Isn't this forum supposed to be for sharing ideas and crossing things off the list of angles and ideas already tried? And sharing spots we've already dug so no one spends too much wasted time? I hadn't seen any mention of looking into the verse for a hidden message in regards to Boston so thought I'd ask.
I see this time and time again. Someone new asks a question and they get slammed and don't come back again. Kind of ridiculous don't you think? At least I'm not Josh.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I posted my question to see if anyone had gone down this path before.
Many, many times. And to date, besides the rebus in Image 10, and the acrostic in Verse 9, no one has found anything of substance to my knowledge. Which is not to say there might not be something there, and you'll be the one to find it. Just that looking for those things is not in any way a novel idea, and that failed attempts are as ubiquitous as empty holes. Perhaps you'll have more luck.
Spiritr
Haarstick wrote::
Renevator - I wasn't trying to suggest no one had thought of this before. I was curious to see if anyone reading this right now looked at this angle and if so, what types of puzzles did they apply? It's an angle I'd like to explore and I posted my question to see if anyone had gone down this path before.
Isn't this forum supposed to be for sharing ideas and crossing things off the list of angles and ideas already tried? And sharing spots we've already dug so no one spends too much wasted time? I hadn't seen any mention of looking into the verse for a hidden message in regards to Boston so thought I'd ask.
I see this time and time again. Someone new asks a question and they get slammed and don't come back again. Kind of ridiculous don't you think? At least I'm not Josh.
no, I have, and I have done so many research to prove it's realness. But later found out without a casque in hand, people will just see you as a clown.
MrBackstop
How about the outside of jewel box. I've mentioned I believe the box to actually be Fenway Park which is one of the two jewels remaining in Major League Baseball. The other of course is Wrigley Field and some may argue Dodger Stadium or the old Yankee Stadium but not me. These were the 2 jewel boxes remaining in the 70s and 80s as well. I see the images on the outside of the box as being many buildings, not just one.
1. The 2 "B"s on the box...one is backwards at the top and the other is below that one. I see this as a reference to Back (Backwards) Bay.
2. The tower with the turret and two windows is interesting. Someone had brought up the fact that 18 days and 12 hours is a total of 444 hours. You will notice that at the backside of the FireDepartment's Engine 33 Ladder 15 building is a tower with a turret and some offset windows. What I find interesting is that the alley behind the building is Public Alley 444.
3. At the corner of Boylston and Massachusettes is another old building with a tower on the corner and a turret on top. The other tower could be one of the many on Trinity Church at Copley.
4. The arrow pointing into the circle could be a number of buildings. I see this as the center peak of Jillian's Building at Ipswich and Landsdowne just outside Fenway.
Any thoughts? Perhaps Strike13 or Bingo would know what used to be in that Jillian's building before they opened in the mid 80s? Any Boston searchers know?
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
How about the outside of jewel box. I've mentioned I believe the box to actually be Fenway Park which is one of the two jewels remaining in Major League Baseball. The other of course is Wrigley Field and some may argue Dodger Stadium or the old Yankee Stadium but not me. These were the 2 jewel boxes remaining in the 70s and 80s as well. I see the images on the outside of the box as being many buildings, not just one.
1. The 2 "B"s on the box...one is backwards at the top and the other is below that one. I see this as a reference to Back (Backwards) Bay.
2. The tower with the turret and two windows is interesting. Someone had brought up the fact that 18 days and 12 hours is a total of 444 hours. You will notice that at the backside of the FireDepartment's Engine 33 Ladder 15 building is a tower with a turret and some offset windows. What I find interesting is that the alley behind the building is Public Alley 444.
3. At the corner of Boylston and Massachusettes is another old building with a tower on the corner and a turret on top. The other tower could be one of the many on Trinity Church at Copley.
4. The arrow pointing into the circle could be a number of buildings. I see this as the center peak of Jillian's Building at Ipswich and Landsdowne just outside Fenway.
Any thoughts? Perhaps Strike13 or Bingo would know what used to be in that Jillian's building before they opened in the mid 80s? Any Boston searchers know?
hxxp://mrwc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Jillians.pdf
I like the idea of it being right by Fenway, especially with the Japanese translations and the words chosen to be focused on for verse 3.
Kalessin
Quoted from:
hxxp://www.fundinguniverse.com/company- ... c-history/
"The first Jillian's was opened in Boston, Massachusetts, by Stephen Foster. Foster, a 1978 graduate of Boston University Law School, had been working in New York as a corporate lawyer when he noticed people roller skating to pop music in Central Park. Inspired to create a club where people could do this indoors, he quit his job and sought help from his father, a Newton, Massachusetts judge. The elder Foster mortgaged his home to provide funds for the venture, which would be located in Boston on the top floor of an old brick stable building. In August 1979, after installing 10,000 square feet of maple flooring, the skating club was opened. Called Spinoff, it did well for a few years until the roller disco craze faded; the venture folded in 1987. In the meantime Foster had founded another new business, an oil brokerage firm called United Fuels International."
I skated at Spinoff a few times, and in 1988, Spinoff reopened as Jillian's, with pool tables installed on the skating floor, which was already level and solid, a big plus for billiards. I played pool and snooker there for a while (they had Boston's only public snooker table for a long time).
Trends change and it's now redecorated and renamed Lucky Strike, with some bowling lanes added to the billiards and arcade games.
MrBackstop
Thanks Strike, that was a great article.
Kalessin, I'm curious to know if there was an earlier bowling alley there along with the Spinoff. And if not in that actual building somewhere very close by?
I ask because of the ball on top of the old milk bottle in Image 11 at bottom right is similar to how bowling was done way back when......old milk bottles would be placed by hand before attempting to be knocked down by the bowler. This ball appears to be a blue bowling ball on a milk bottle. The other blue globes have white highlight reflections which would indicate being outdoors. I see those representing the bodies of water,....Muddy River and St Charles River.
Notice the other blue ball doesn't have a white reflection which would indicate being indoor. Of course an indoor light would reflect a white highlight, but this is what I believe BP and JJP were trying to accomplish.
Kalessin
As far as I know, the Spinoff/Jillian's building was a warehouse before it opened as Spinoff. The buildings along Landsdowne street along Fenway Park didn't have much in them before 1975, mostly decrepit warehouses and a parking garage, some of which were soon to be converted to nightclubs.
However, there is/was a bowling alley under the southwest corner of Fenway Park from the 1930's until 2004, I believe called Ryan's Amusements at the end, at the corner of Landsdowne St. and Brookline Ave.
BINGO
Kalessin wrote::
However, there is/was a bowling alley under the southwest corner of Fenway Park from the 1930's until 2004, I believe called Ryan's Amusements at the end, at the corner of Landsdowne St. and Brookline Ave.
Wouldn’t that be the site of the Cask n Flagon? I believe that has been there since 1969ish.
Edit: My bad. I missed the southwest corner part of your post. It’s easy overlook those buildings and consider them part of Fenway Park.
Kalessin
BINGO wrote::
Wouldn’t that be the site of the Cask n Flagon? I believe that has been there since 1969ish.
Edit: My bad. I missed the southwest corner part of your post. It’s easy overlook those buildings and consider them part of Fenway Park.
My bad, too... my whole location description was poorly worded.
The intersection of Brookline Ave. and Landsdowne St. is a little tough to describe with compass directions. In this section, Brookline Ave runs SW to NE. The bowling alley was where Game On Fenway! is currently located, at the more southwestern corner of the intersection, which is southwest across Landsdowne from the Cask 'n Flagon.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cask+ ... -71.097921
strike13
I like this as the little map thing in right side of the image, with it being so close to fenway. musical note could be so many things and is in the direction of the conservatory, berklee, and symph hall. Who knows.
https://imgur.com/a/L6ttkTY
MrBackstop
strike13 wrote::
I like this as the little map thing in right side of the image, with it being so close to fenway. musical note could be so many things and is in the direction of the conservatory, berklee, and symph hall. Who knows.
https://imgur.com/a/L6ttkTY
Great idea there Strike, I've never seen anyone with that thought.
Kalessin/ Bingo
So there is information regarding a bowling alley near Fenway. That's great to hear. I just couldn't make sense of the blue ball on top of the milk bottle without thinking of the old time bowling lanes.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
Great idea there Strike, I've never seen anyone with that thought.
Kalessin/ Bingo
So there is information regarding a bowling alley near Fenway. That's great to hear. I just couldn't make sense of the blue ball on top of the milk bottle without thinking of the old time bowling lanes.
What's the milk bottle in the image?! Her dress?
MrBackstop
Let me add this to the Back Bay Fens area.....I've never seen anyone discuss the number 1105 on Erin's left arm. As I researched this number I realized it is the address for St. Clement, 1105 Boylston St.
Also, look at the right shoulder of the fairy holding the green jewel....blow it up as big as you can. What do you see? As a baseball guy I'll tell you what I see, ....I see the red stitching of a baseball seam. I never noticed this or the reddish color until a couple weeks ago.
I feel both of these clues are just more info from the puzzle sending us to the Back Bay Fens.
MrBackstop
The milk bottle is in the bottom right corner with the blue ball on top. This is one of the ways bowling got stared in its early development.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
The milk bottle is in the bottom right corner with the blue ball on top. This is one of the ways bowling got stared in its early development.
Going with the Fenway theme here, what if Thucydides and Xenophon are also descriptive words for the park. The quote comes from Horace Walpole - WALL POLE. Green Monster and Pesky's Pole? Two well known features in Fenway. Just a thought I had while watching the Sox hopefully make franchise history tonight!
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Going with the Fenway theme here, what if Thucydides and Xenophon are also descriptive words for the park. The quote comes from Horace Walpole - WALL POLE. Green Monster and Pesky's Pole? Two well known features in Fenway. Just a thought I had while watching the Sox hopefully make franchise history tonight!
Go Sox!
Great thought on Wall Pole too.
Kalessin
I've lived in Massachusetts all my life, mostly around Boston, and honestly can't think of a connection between Thucydides, Xenophon, and Fenway Park.
MERLIN
In 1774, Horace Walpole sent a letter to Horace Mann that included the following line: "The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York." The first line of Verse 3 is probably a reference to that quotation, telling us to look in either the Boston or New York area.
maltedfalcon
MERLIN wrote::
In 1774, Horace Walpole sent a letter to Horace Mann that included the following line: "The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York." The first line of Verse 3 is probably a reference to that quotation, telling us to look in either the Boston or New York area.
or simply to take 5 steps toward Xenophon (whatever those end up being) or the area Xenophon is in.
Kalessin
I meant specifically a link to Fenway Park. The Thucydides and Xenophon quote is well known far back in the threads here on Q4T.
dosethree
Or a reference to the names on the bpl (not many great alternatives for turning those lines into a starting location thus far) though that has its own issues (X is not north of T)
I don’t really buy that the first two lines serve only as city identifiers
1. Doesn’t explain where to take 5 steps from (though 5 steps could mean something else like take 5 steps on the freedom trail or 5 steps on some other trail or short set of stairs where you wouldn’t a starting point for.... perhaps located in the “north area” (north end)?
2. Chicago and cleveland didn’t seem to work like that. I suspect there is another yet to be discovered way of pairing verses to images (or cities)
3. The rest of the verse uses vague language that seems to need to work from a starting point (like chicago but not cleveland). If T&X doesn’t give us a starting point what in the heck does? Maybe the image but that seems like a crap shoot
Also 18th day / 12 hour seems like a far more obvious literary reference to Boston, so why include the walpole quote (if not to tie it to a specific location as well as confirm Boston).
I’d be curious if any other verse experts have any insight on the purpose of literary references are. It makes sense that he would references to the city, but what other purpose do they serve?
Chicago and cleveland didn’t really use them. Are we supposed to consult the source material of the walpole letters or longfellow poem for connections to a location? Or are T&X a metaphor for figures that tower over boston’s history in a similar fashion?
MrBackstop
strike13 wrote::
Going with the Fenway theme here, what if Thucydides and Xenophon are also descriptive words for the park. The quote comes from Horace Walpole - WALL POLE. Green Monster and Pesky's Pole? Two well known features in Fenway. Just a thought I had while watching the Sox hopefully make franchise history tonight!
That's cool....I like that.
FollowTheWay
dosethree wrote::
Or a reference to the names on the bpl (not many great alternatives for turning those lines into a starting location thus far) though that has its own issues (X is not north of T)
I don’t really buy that the first two lines serve only as city identifiers
1. Doesn’t explain where to take 5 steps from (though 5 steps could mean something else like take 5 steps on the freedom trail or 5 steps on some other trail or short set of stairs where you wouldn’t a starting point for.... perhaps located in the “north area” (north end)?
2. Chicago and cleveland didn’t seem to work like that. I suspect there is another yet to be discovered way of pairing verses to images (or cities)
3. The rest of the verse uses vague language that seems to need to work from a starting point (like chicago but not cleveland). If T&X doesn’t give us a starting point what in the heck does? Maybe the image but that seems like a crap shoot
Also 18th day / 12 hour seems like a far more obvious literary reference to Boston, so why include the walpole quote (if not to tie it to a specific location as well as confirm Boston).
I’d be curious if any other verse experts have any insight on the purpose of literary references are. It makes sense that he would references to the city, but what other purpose do they serve?
Chicago and cleveland didn’t really use them. Are we supposed to consult the source material of the walpole letters or longfellow poem for connections to a location? Or are T&X a metaphor for figures that tower over boston’s history in a similar fashion?
I've always thought the first couple of lines sounded like a mathematical equation, with "north of" akin to "greater than."
If T is greater than X...
BINGO
dosethree wrote::
Also 18th day / 12 hour seems like a far more obvious literary reference to Boston, so why include the walpole quote (if not to tie it to a specific location as well as confirm Boston).
I have long suspected that the T&X quote was a general nod to the city of Boston.
I have also suspected that the 18/12 quote was a nod specifically to the North End in Boston.
The Longfellow quote is part of the tale of Paul Revere using the North Church lamps to warn of the British.
Paul Revere’s house is a landmark in the North End, the North Church is a landmark in the North End, and there is no better place in the city of Boston to make a connection to the Italian theme of the puzzle.
The biggest problem with this thought process is the lack of any rock solid matches to the painting. It would be incredible to have a Bowman somewhere in the City to narrow down the search area. Without one, I don’t think we will know which interpretation of the verse is on the right track.
MrBackstop
Kalessin wrote::
I meant specifically a link to Fenway Park. The Thucydides and Xenophon quote is well known far back in the threads here on Q4T.
I see this as a starting point at the Boston Public Library. Thucydides is above (North) Xenophon on the wall....not actually North of it directionally speaking. Then taking the 5 steps (city blocks) to the West takes you down to the John Boyle O'Reilly statue which starts to tie together the Image with the Verse. Kalessin, I don't see this as an specific link to Fenway or Back Bay Fens, just a direction to get you there.
MrBackstop
I see the lines in Verse 3:
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
as meaning a couple things...obviously as Bingo said, it is a nod to Paul Revere. But more importantly for this puzzle, it gives a nod to Fenway Park....here's how.
The First MLB opening game for Fenway was played on April 20th, 1912. But what most people don't know is that the First game was scheduled for April 18th, 1912 but was rained out two days in a row until finally being played on the 20th. I believe it was a great way for the Boston Red Sox to celebrate Boston's history and Paul Revere's ride on April 18th which would have been a "day" game and that game may have been scheduled for noon (many start times for games at that time were noon) which would also be a nod to Paul Revere but obviously being played at 12 noon instead of midnight.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
I see the lines in Verse 3:
Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
as meaning a couple things...obviously as Bingo said, it is a nod to Paul Revere. But more importantly for this puzzle, it gives a nod to Fenway Park....here's how.
The First MLB opening game for Fenway was played on April 20th, 1912. But what most people don't know is that the First game was scheduled for April 18th, 1912 but was rained out two days in a row until finally being played on the 20th. I believe it was a great way for the Boston Red Sox to celebrate Boston's history and Paul Revere's ride on April 18th which would have been a "day" game and that game may have been scheduled for noon (many start times for games at that time were noon) which would also be a nod to Paul Revere but obviously being played at 12 noon instead of midnight.
They had actually scheduled the Patriots Day game for the 19th that yr, the second game. First game was for the 18th, Patriots Day on the 19th. I do like that for 18 though. Thought about that a few nights ago, again, as I watched the Sox make franchise history. GO SOX!
Trapezoid
So, here's an area of interest I found this summer. I wanted to explore firsthand before posting, but haven't had the chance, so whatever.
"A green tower of lights In the middle section" and "the coliseum With metal walls" are both thought to be the Green Monster, but it doesn't seem very economical to spend two lines alluding to the same landmark.
However, right in Kenmore Square is the
tail end of Commonwealth Ave
, part of the Emerald Necklace. This little park is interesting because there's a conspicuous concrete arch which used to be a train tunnel portal that was filled in:
Here's that portal in 1977, before a general park renovation:
Anyway, here's the interesting part.
Hard to find pictures of this lamp. It looks like it's painted dark grey, but I've seen photos of the other lamps donated to NY, Chicago and Houston and some of those are green. When it was newly dedicated, it may have been green.
Smack dab on the base is this pendant with an
embossed storybook castle
. It's not a perfect match, but I like it. Maybe if you combine it with the building right behind the lamp:
Back in the day this was a well-known funeral home called J.S. Waterman & Son.
This park is probably not a good place to dig (and was probably altered somewhat when they redid Kenmore station in the 2000s.) But it is right in the middle of Fenway, Charlesgate, and the Theta Xi frathouse.
gManTexas
Trapezoid wrote::
So, here's an area of interest I found this summer. I wanted to explore firsthand before posting, but haven't had the chance, so whatever.
"A green tower of lights In the middle section" and "the coliseum With metal walls" are both thought to be the Green Monster, but it doesn't seem very economical to spend two lines alluding to the same landmark.
However, right in Kenmore Square is the
tail end of Commonwealth Ave
, part of the Emerald Necklace. This little park is interesting because there's a conspicuous concrete arch which used to be a train tunnel portal that was filled in:
Here's that portal in 1977, before a general park renovation:
Anyway, here's the interesting part.
Hard to find pictures of this lamp. It looks like it's painted dark grey, but I've seen photos of the other lamps donated to NY, Chicago and Houston and some of those are green. When it was newly dedicated, it may have been green.
Smack dab on the base is this pendant with an
embossed storybook castle
. It's not a perfect match, but I like it. Maybe if you combine it with the building right behind the lamp:
Back in the day this was a well-known funeral home called J.S. Waterman & Son.
This park is probably not a good place to dig (and was probably altered somewhat when they redid Kenmore station in the 2000s.) But it is right in the middle of Fenway, Charlesgate, and the Theta Xi frathouse.
This is some great stuff, thanks for sharing! This is also right near the Citgo sign and the "two A's" as some people call it from her dress.
JoshCornell
lamp is def part of the puzzle if not the treasure hunt.
JoshCornell
just destroyed a massive swath of this and the charleston puzzle...one of my most productive days ever...just broke loads of effin clues!
JoshCornell
i did it!!!!!!!!
i finished boston :O
huzzah!!!
drunknerds
Trapezoid that was an amazing post. I really love how you put pictures in there to show exactly where you were talking about
MrBackstop
Here is the "hidden map" I found in Image 11. It is looking into Boston Victory Gardens from the North to the South. The bottom of Erin's dress has 3 squares covered in vines. The top two squares under the large backward "S" are the Boston Victory Gardens and the bottom square represents JBO, John Boyle O'Reilly statue and Boylston Street Bridge.
The four yellow arrows coming from the "blank" leaves show the entrances to the VG. I believe the casque is buried in Compost Area 2. That is the only leaf on this layout that has a vine running thru it. And keep in mind, Bingo pointed out before that the "letters" have nothing to do with the paths of the Gardens today. Those weren't added until the late 80s to early 90s. All the letters are here to see refers to the Massachusetts Historical society (masshist.org)
which is across the street from the John Boyle O'Reilly statue at the corner of Boylston and Fenway.
Face the water
- Muddy River
Your back to the stairs
- Fenway Park stairs in the Stadium
Feel at home
- Victory Gardens, these rented gardens are used by people who don't have gardens at home due to being in an apartment or properties without much land to build a garden. Makes you "Feel at home" when you're in your garden.
All the letters
- Massachusetts Historical Society, historical letters and documents
Are here to see
- Not only can you see the MHS building from Compost Area 2 but this can also be a clever play on words. My thought...."to see", as in 2C....2nd Compost Area.
I know this area would be easy to dig or probe but I wonder if some of the gardeners may have dug deep enough when turning over compost, or burying waste, to have inadvertently dug up a treasure they were unaware of? Thoughts? Bingo, Strike13 have you guys searched in and around 2C?
JoshCornell
the gardens are also passed down through the family, as an inheritance. i do not think its there.
Kalessin
[posted emptied because phpBB won't let me delete it]
Kalessin
MrBackstop wrote::
I know this area would be easy to dig or probe but I wonder if some of the gardeners may have dug deep enough when turning over compost, or burying waste, to have inadvertently dug up a treasure they were unaware of? Thoughts? Bingo, Strike13 have you guys searched in and around 2C?
I think this very point would be why the casque probably isn't in the Victory gardens -- it should be dug up after solving a puzzle, not just by someone gardening.
MrBackstop
So the next question would be would anyone that has a garden there actually dig deep enough to disturb the casque....I don't believe so. There is no logical reason to dig that deep when turning compost.
So far I have two who say that it can't be buried there. I can deal with that but what are others thoughts on the hidden map? When I saw this it while comparing maps of the area it blew my mind.
Kalessin
MrBackstop wrote::
So the next question would be would anyone that has a garden there actually dig deep enough to disturb the casque....I don't believe so. There is no logical reason to dig that deep when turning compost.
So far I have two who say that it can't be buried there. I can deal with that but what are others thoughts on the hidden map? When I saw this it while comparing maps of the area it blew my mind.
I didn't say "can't", just "probably not". While the gardens have been there for many decades, what was a compost plot one year might be a garden plot the next year, and vice versa. Families do keep the same plots in the Fenway Victory Gardens for many years, even many decades, but there are changes over time. Also, if I were designing a puzzle like this myself, I would probably not use a compost heap as the ultimate destination for a puzzle solution.
Trapezoid
The part of that design that stands out to me isn't the swirly designs but the three squares underneath. The vines seem more like they're supposed to be masking it.
I've looked around Boston maps for that shape and it's surprisingly hard to find. The best I've seen (though I haven't searched THAT hard) is actually pretty close to the Fens. Harvard Medical's quad:
erexere
Trapdzoid, great ideas!
maltedfalcon
[quote="Kalessin"
I didn't say "can't", just "probably not". While the gardens have been there for many decades, what was a compost plot one year might be a garden plot the next year, and vice versa. Families do keep the same plots in the Fenway Victory Gardens for many years, even many decades, but there are changes over time. Also, if I were designing a puzzle like this myself, I would probably not use a compost heap as the ultimate destination for a puzzle solution.[/quote]
I agree with you but do keep in mind he fully expected all of them to be found within the year.
BINGO
I can't say that I'm convinced that the area is related or relevant to the hunt, but it does pass the test of time. Also, the small half circle above the quad is dedicated to Oscar Tugo, the first American death from WWI.
Direct Link
https://i.imgur.com/rJsILpQ.png
1978
Trapezoid
Yeah. It's just removed enough from the Fens that it might just be a coincidence.
Today's thoughts:
"Take five steps in the area of his direction" is a direct command, but the next few lines ("A green tower of lights / In the middle section / Near those / Who pass the coliseum / With metal walls") seem like they're just clarifying where where that "area" is.
So, the lamp is at the western tail end of the Commonwealth Mall, which runs east to the Boston Common. Not sure how east would be the "area of his direction", but that line might just be referring to the whole Mall-- it's an area that runs directionally. Not sure who the "his" could be, maybe Olmsted, maybe some lost theta symbol representing Thucydides. Either way, if you walk the Mall, you can only go east from the lamp.
If you cross five streets, you end up just past the Sarmiento statue at Gloucester St. If you turn left to face the water and walk, you'll go all the way to Storrow looking directly at... the
Storrow Memorial Compass
, which has been discussed here before. Although there's no convenient way to cross Storrow directly from Gloucester, we do end up looking right at a plausible endpoint after taking five plausible "steps" from a plausible startpoint.
I haven't been to the compass area and I'm not sure how to suss out a digging spot there, but I do like this path.
Trapezoid
Yeah. It's just removed enough from the Fens that it might just be a coincidence.
Today's thoughts:
"Take five steps in the area of his direction" is a direct command, but the next few lines ("A green tower of lights / In the middle section / Near those / Who pass the coliseum / With metal walls") seem like they're just clarifying where where that "area" is.
So, the lamp is at the western tail end of the Commonwealth Mall, which runs east to the Boston Common. Not sure how east would be the "area of his direction", but that line might just be referring to the whole Mall-- it's an area that runs directionally. Not sure who the "his" could be, maybe Olmsted, maybe some lost theta symbol representing Thucydides. Either way, if you walk the Mall, you can only go east from the lamp.
If you cross five streets, you end up just past the Sarmiento statue at Gloucester St. If you turn left to face the water and walk, you'll go all the way to Storrow looking directly at... the
Storrow Memorial
Compass
, which has been discussed here before. Although there's no convenient way to cross Storrow directly from Gloucester, we do end up looking right at a plausible endpoint after taking five plausible "steps" from a plausible startpoint.
I haven't been to the
compass
area and I'm not sure how to suss out a digging spot there, but I do like this path.
strike13
Well since you're talking about Sarmiento and the 3 blocks in the dress covered in vines, I have often thought as those three blocks as the first three blocks of the Comm Ave Mall, starting at the Leif Erikson statue. Notice the leaf at the top of the first block. Possibly meant to be Leif Erikson. Then as you go down the dress through the next three blocks, where the sphere touches the block is where the Sarmiento statue is.
In Sarmiento's Travels in the U.S. in 1847 (the same book the sovereign ppl quote from the NO puzzle is from) "Sarmiento describes the help Mann gave him and continues: Armed with these documents, and a collection of his lectures, reports, and speeches, and nourished with his oral instructions, I returned to South America and during these years have done nothing else but follow in his footsteps, his great work in organizing education in Massaschusetts serving as my model"
Sarmiento had a good relationship with Horace Mann. Walpole wrote the letter mentioning T and X to Mann.
Sarmiento was also an integral part of immigration in Argentina. "In his exploration of the dichotomy between civilization and barbarism in 1845, Domingo F. Sarmiento, an Argentine intellectual who would become president some years later, proposed Argentina should seek European immigrants to help populate and modernize the large Latin American nation. The Immigration and Colonization Act of 1876 became the catalyst for what would become known as the “era of mass immigration” "
How this relates to this image or verse, not fully sure. Could be a whole lot of nothing. At one point this summer, I was also convinced you could see the profile of his statue in the castle in the box in the image/ However, that is a different post for a different day. Don't want to sound too crazy all at once! Haha! Also, having trouble locating the pic I made of it.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Well since you're talking about Sarmiento and the 3 blocks in the dress covered in vines, I have often thought as those three blocks as the first three blocks of the Comm Ave Mall, starting at the Leif Erikson statue. Notice the leaf at the top of the first block. Possibly meant to be Leif Erikson. Then as you go down the dress through the next three blocks, where the sphere touches the block is where the Sarmiento statue is.
In Sarmiento's Travels in the U.S. in 1847 (the same book the sovereign ppl quote from the NO puzzle is from) "Sarmiento describes the help Mann gave him and continues: Armed with these documents, and a collection of his lectures, reports, and speeches, and nourished with his oral instructions, I returned to South America and during these years have done nothing else but follow in his footsteps, his great work in organizing education in Massaschusetts serving as my model"
Sarmiento had a good relationship with Horace Mann. Walpole wrote the letter mentioning T and X to Mann.
Sarmiento was also an integral part of immigration in Argentina. "In his exploration of the dichotomy between civilization and barbarism in 1845, Domingo F. Sarmiento, an Argentine intellectual who would become president some years later, proposed Argentina should seek European immigrants to help populate and modernize the large Latin American nation. The Immigration and Colonization Act of 1876 became the catalyst for what would become known as the “era of mass immigration” "
How this relates to this image or verse, not fully sure. Could be a whole lot of nothing. At one point this summer, I was also convinced you could see the profile of his statue in the castle in the box in the image/ However, that is a different post for a different day. Don't want to sound too crazy all at once! Haha! Also, having trouble locating the pic I made of it.
Great post. Go Sox!!
mariska
'All the letters are here to see' could fit with that area. The street names are in alphabetic sequence, from the Boston public garden, following common wealth avenue (between Beacon street and Boylston street)
Wikipedia says this :
Five east-west corridors—Beacon Street (closest to the Charles), Marlborough Street, Commonwealth Avenue (actually two one-way thoroughfares flanking the tree-lined pedestrian Commonwealth Avenue Mall), Newbury Street and Boylston Street—are intersected at regular intervals by north-south cross streets: Arlington (along the western edge of the Public Garden), Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Gloucester, and Hereford. A 1874 guidebook[14] noted the trisyllabic-disyllabic alternation of that alphabetic sequence; the series continues in the adjacent Fenway neighborhood with Ipswich, Jersey, and Kilmarnock Streets. West of Hereford are Massachusetts Avenue (a regional thoroughfare crossing the Harvard Bridge to Cambridge and far beyond) and Charlesgate, which forms the Back Bay's western boundary.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Great post. Go Sox!!
Thanks! Hell yeah Go Sox!!!
I wonder if BP was a Sox fan from NY. They are out there, I know a few. Would be even more reason for him to use Fenway as part of this.
MrBackstop
With the World Series going on let me add a couple more items of interest concerning Fenway Park.
I've mentioned the number 42 on Erin's sleeve having more than one meaning....like obviously Boston's latitude, and also, 1942 being the year that the Fenway Victory Gardens were built. What I want to add to that is the number 420. Look at Erin's sleeve with the 42 and notice that there is also a partial "0" as well. This is from an area in Fenway Park known as the "Triangle" in center field. The dimensions for the deepest part of Fenway in the Triangle is 420 feet.
Also, has anyone noticed yet that the fairy has red baseball seams on her right shoulder? Zoom in to check it out.
strike13
MrBackstop wrote::
With the World Series going on let me add a couple more items of interest concerning Fenway Park.
I've mentioned the number 42 on Erin's sleeve having more than one meaning....like obviously Boston's latitude, and also, 1942 being the year that the Fenway Victory Gardens were built. What I want to add to that is the number 420. Look at Erin's sleeve with the 42 and notice that there is also a partial "0" as well. This is from an area in Fenway Park known as the "Triangle" in center field. The dimensions for the deepest part of Fenway in the Triangle is 420 feet.
Also, has anyone noticed yet that the fairy has red baseball seams on her right shoulder? Zoom in to check it out.
How about a location as simple as the spot where the road Fenway and Park Drive intersect (on the fens side). Fenway Park.
Spiritr
Unknown:
Also, has anyone noticed yet that the fairy has red baseball seams on her right shoulder? Zoom in to check it out.
No, not at all. On the fairy's right shoulder, it's all white.
MrBackstop
No, coming from the backside of her shoulder and the underside of her arm down to her waist.
JamesV
Just thought I'd share this photo of the Paul Revere capture site near Lincoln, MA. I think it's a little too far outside Boston to have any relationship to the hunt, although the circle shape reminded me of that odd door/window featured in the background of Image 11.
strike13
Coming out of left field here with this one...
I have read about references to Oz with this puzzle. Not just with the Roanoake one.
Let's take Oz to the Boston puzzle now. Let's go to Copley square. Square, a good word for "area" of his direction. Not what I am getting at though....
The Lenox Hotel has huge lettering on top of it. Possibly all of the letters from that sign are viewable from the dig spot. The next line, Feel at Home, well Judy Garland was known for staying at the Lenox Hotel. She lived there for some time. "there's no place like home"..which takes us back to Oz.
Maybe? No? We may never know.
erexere
hxxp://s11.photobucket.com/user/erexere ... d.png.html
dosethree
(I haven't confirmed on the ground) I think the Lenox sign is primarily viewable walking down Boylston coming from the common/copley, but it's hard to see from the ground from many other angles at distance, and Copley is a concrete jungle mostly digging wise.
I actually saw bunch of workers doing some re landscaping a few weeks ago in Copley of some sort in the large rectangular grass plot of closest to the BPL (I neglected to tell them to call me if they find a casque, I probably should've), but it's so open the casque has to be a decent haul from the Copley. Though here are some small building-lot sized parks scattered in the general area but they don't seem very appealing because of lack of size/privacy/features (though who knows these days, no stone unturned).
strike13
dosethree wrote::
(I haven't confirmed on the ground) I think the Lenox sign is primarily viewable walking down Boylston coming from the common/copley, but it's hard to see from the ground from many other angles at distance, and Copley is a concrete jungle mostly digging wise.
I actually saw bunch of workers doing some re landscaping a few weeks ago in Copley of some sort in the large rectangular grass plot of closest to the BPL (I neglected to tell them to call me if they find a casque, I probably should've), but it's so open the casque has to be a decent haul from the Copley. Though here are some small building-lot sized parks scattered in the general area but they don't seem very appealing because of lack of size/privacy/features (though who knows these days, no stone unturned).
I sort of like the old south church grounds somewhere on boylston with regards to a copley sq location. However copley is not at the top of my locations, it's in the mix, but not at the top. Always agree with leaving no stone unturned, so wanting and willing to explore all options!
gManTexas
I feel reasonably certain that this is the castle in Image 11. The old Armory at Arlington and Columbus. It has a lot of the same features as the castle on the box and is only a few blocks from the Library and Boston Common.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/101+A ... 71.0700958
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armory_of ... _of_Cadets
Spiritr
gManTexas wrote::
I feel reasonably certain that this is the castle in Image 11. The old Armory at Arlington and Columbus. It has a lot of the same features as the castle on the box and is only a few blocks from the Library and Boston Common
Boston's historic district isn't small, you need to focus on a more specific general area.
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
Boston's historic district isn't small, you need to focus on a more specific general area.
Not sure what you mean by this. The armory is literally a few blocks from the library. Seems like a better fit than the BU Castle or many others that people have suggested.
strike13
Spiritr wrote::
Boston's historic district isn't small, you need to focus on a more specific general area.
There's nothing large or expansive in terms of square footage about Boston.
We have a vast and expansive history as a whole, but not in terms of square footage. Can walk the entire length of the city in 45 minutes.
drunknerds
I suspect that when Preiss took the picture of the dig spot to send to JPL, a black bird flew into the frame. So BPL assumed it was somehow relevant to the puzzle.
Wonder if that bird is still flying around the dig spot?
Kasey
Hey guys I hope you do not mind me asking but I am doing a research paper on The Secret and was wondering if you guys Know of any places to find some research I'm using this website as one but I need more.
thanks kasey
dosethree
Kasey wrote::
Hey guys I hope you do not mind me asking but I am doing a research paper on The Secret and was wondering if you guys Know of any places to find some research I'm using this website as one but I need more.
thanks kasey
Kasey -
There's the wiki
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/22148559/FrontPage
and a bunch of other forums, but the wiki + q4t IMO is pretty much the sum of collective available human knowledge in regards the secret. There's also a podcast
hxxp://12treasures.com/
a pretty good episode on the secret recently by Expedition Unknown tv show and an upcoming documentary by James Renner that might be good for research purposes.
Also this thread specifically used for discussion of image 11, please maybe create a new thread for questions like this
Welcome to the hunt!
maltedfalcon
or the podcast,
plus all the Facebook pages, there is at least one for every city theory
mysteriousnesss
It's been a while since I posted on here but I thought I'd offer up something small that I noticed the other day. Everyone seems to wonder why there are no landmarks noticeable in the Boston image whereas the Chicago and Cleveland images each had at least one. What about this for a match?
maltedfalcon
mysteriousnesss wrote::
It's been a while since I posted on here but I thought I'd offer up something small that I noticed the other day. Everyone seems to wonder why there are no landmarks noticeable in the Boston image whereas the Chicago and Cleveland images each had at least one. What about this for a match?
You mean all the cell phone antennas on that tower? Lets think about that for a moment.
Choice
It did have radio and TV broadcast antennas tower then, I think.
They had radio and TV's then!
BINGO
Radio, TV, or cell antennas aside. That is a weak image match at best for 1982 or today. Absolutely nowhere near the quality that would be required to put it in the Cleveland or Chicago category.
Call me a prick, I’m just being honest.
Choice
One thing we should all agree on, she (or he) has a bad choppy haircut.
mysteriousnesss
Well this is a picture dated 1976 from digitalcommonwealth.org so I don't see where you see a problem.
Choice
They are saying it's not a strong enough match. It looks like a random occurrence. You could grab a vertical line from any structure or statue and call it that.
mysteriousnesss
While I wholeheartedly agree, I thought the point of this forum was to share information and work towards finding these casques. There have been far weaker connections made or mentioned within a number of these puzzles that didn't receive nearly as much criticism. It was just an observation after all, but I apologize for having shared it.
Choice
Don't get discouraged. Take it as constructive criticism. I've been through this many times myself and I was told to get a thicker skin!
BINGO
mysteriousnesss wrote::
While I wholeheartedly agree, I thought the point of this forum was to share information and work towards finding these casques. There have been far weaker connections made or mentioned within a number of these puzzles that didn't receive nearly as much criticism. It was just an observation after all, but I apologize for having shared it.
Would you prefer the entire Secret community band together and cheer you on in support of your find? Or would you like to be part of a real and honest discussion about it?
I don’t believe anyone is trying to be rude or disrespectful to you in any way.
I won’t speak for others, but it’s just not a good match in my opinion. Ideas should be discussed on this forum with the ultimate goal of locating a casque. This includes the support of good ideas and the debunking of bad ones. If you truly believe that your discovery is of great value, then by all means, argue your point. Sensitivity should be checked while logging in.
erexere
People will always have opinions.
A visual comparison only merits attention either when it is an undeniably perfect match or if it's just a similarity that comes with a supporting reason to be at some particular viewing angle or there's a particular point in the progression as the puzzle unfolds. Things get especially difficult especially when we have a basis we call "progress" and then we cherry pick to settle our bias.
For me, the bias is all about the Landlord's Tale. It merits attention because it is a source material for 18th day and midnight. I suspect the "truth" that is needed to be free has a lot to do with following a light's direction. When Paul Revere passed safely across the Charles River, undetected by the watchful sentry on the Somerset warship, he avoided capture. It was the bright face of the full moon that obscured Revere's crossing. I'd like to see how this can be acted out in the Charlesgate setting in a way that reveals a point of interest.
Choice
Truth as in VE-RI-TAS... Harvard motto
Harvard medical:
https://tinyurl.com/y9k9bz3r
erexere
Choice wrote::
Truth as in VE-RI-TAS
There is that, but there us also "illuminaton".
Choice
Choice wrote::
Truth as in VE-RI-TAS... Harvard motto
Harvard medical school:
https://tinyurl.com/y9k9bz3r
Get the shoe horn. Letters HMS maybe in the pattern, building symbols on both sides:
4 on her wrist and on top (quad).
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Get the shoe horn.
Can't....you've had a firm grip on it for about 4 months.
gManTexas
Mister EZ wrote::
Can't....you've had a firm grip on it for about 4 months.
Choice
I'm going to Masha
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
I'm going to Masha
https://youtu.be/btJFfMfH6Uw
dosethree
mysteriousnesss wrote::
While I wholeheartedly agree, I thought the point of this forum was to share information and work towards finding these casques. There have been far weaker connections made or mentioned within a number of these puzzles that didn't receive nearly as much criticism. It was just an observation after all, but I apologize for having shared it.
Don't be discouraged, I think it's a cool idea worth sharing. That doesn't mean it's a legit image match - but 80% of the stuff that people suggest are not legit image matches. The image matches in the solved puzzles aren't really up for debate - once you see them, they are pretty much undeniable matches.
The shapes the end of her hair makes are very peculiar and it could be using negative space to hide an clue. Nobody has any good ideas really on why the hair is so prominently splayed in the illustration - as it does look like its probably at least one clue. The most common suggestion is that it looks like boston harbor piers but even that is tenuous at best.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
One thing we should all agree on, she (or he) has a bad choppy haircut.
That is for sure. Seriously chopped up hair.
maltedfalcon
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Well this is a picture dated 1976 from digitalcommonwealth.org so I don't see where you see a problem.
Well I could be wrong, but I thought you were equating the fuzzy jaggedy antenna on the roof to the fuzzy jaggedy hair on the image.
While you are correct the tall single antenna has probably been on the roof since it the building was built.
The jaggedy fuzzyness that sticks out from the single antenna are celphone antennas. and would not have been installed until starting in the early 90s.
So no fuzzy jaggedy antennas no match.
Now if I am wrong and you were equating some other part of the building, to fuzzy jaggedy. I don't see a match there either.
BINGO
MrBackstop wrote::
The top is the location of the JBO Statue in 1977. The bottom is in 1995 after its relocation (where it sits today).
Boylston and Fenway Streets were reconstructed and the monument was moved (+/- 45 feet) from the center of the intersection to the edge of the road closer to Mother's Rest.
At one time, I found information that had the details and timing of the project, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment. From memory, I believe the project happened shortly after the book was published (definitely between 1977 and 1991 from the available aerial photos). If this is correct, any theories that include the current statue location and its surroundings may have continuity issues.
Anyone interested in the Boston puzzle should check out mapjunction.com. It allows you to pull up historical aerial photos and overlay different years on top of each other. Extremely valuable when trying to determine the history of certain locations in Boston.
photo direct link:
https://i.imgur.com/9VjqSz3.png
dosethree
Here's a photo of it in it's old location....this is from 1896
https://www.stcroixarchitecture.com/pro ... er-kimball
mysteriousnesss
I just thought that the angle you'd be seeing the Prudential from the general vicinity of Charlesgate/The Fens would fit the way the hair looked. Two lines on the side to define its shape and one long one up the middle to the tower for the corner that's facing you. I can absolutely agree that it could be nothing but I just thought I'd point it out.
strike13
dosethree wrote::
Here's a photo of it in it's old location....this is from 1896
https://www.stcroixarchitecture.com/pro ... er-kimball
I cannot stop questioning why John Boyle O'Reilly is even thought about with regards to the Boston image or verse. Not meant as disrespect to anyone. Just truly an honest question. Nothing in the verse describes him, I see zero similarities with the image, furthermore he is IRISH. Aren't we looking for an Italian connection?
I also do not believe "Erin" has any connection. She is not the girl in the image. (Neither is Columbus in my opinion) I am not sure how we have come to swap out Italian for Irish? Is it a desperate attempt to connect something to the Fens because there is a set of stairs near Mother's Rest? I also do not like connecting the "212" (which I do not even truly see as a clear cut number in the image) to "Boyle", for the 212 boiling point of water. If at allllll it is for Boyle, it is for Boylston Street (unique to Boston), not some obscure John Boyle Oreilly statue. I like sharing ideas, even conflicting ones, it is all helpful.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
I cannot stop questioning why John Boyle O'Reilly is even thought about with regards to the Boston image or verse. Not meant as disrespect to anyone. Just truly an honest question. Nothing in the verse describes him, I see zero similarities with the image, furthermore he is IRISH. Aren't we looking for an Italian connection?
I also do not believe "Erin" has any connection. She is not the girl in the image. (Neither is Columbus in my opinion) I am not sure how we have come to swap out Italian for Irish? Is it a desperate attempt to connect something to the Fens because there is a set of stairs near Mother's Rest? I also do not like connecting the "212" (which I do not even truly see as a clear cut number in the image) to "Boyle", for the 212 boiling point of water. If at allllll it is for Boyle, it is for Boylston Street (unique to Boston), not some obscure John Boyle Oreilly statue. I like sharing ideas, even conflicting ones, it is all helpful.
I don't know why people call her Erin. That's why I call her Dolly Parton, lol.
You raise some good points. I think that O'Reilly is a convenient object to latch onto, since so many people are focused on the CG structure in Charlesgate. I was guilty of that early on.
Having said that, I also believe that the nationality connections for the immigration theme are loose in most of the cases here. It is used to weave a story, but does not mean that all of what we are looking for HAS to be connected to that particular nationality or region.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Having said that, I also believe that the nationality connections for the immigration theme are loose in most of the cases here. It is used to weave a story, but does not mean that all of what we are looking for HAS to be connected to that particular nationality or region.
I don’t think loose is a very accurate description of what we know about the immigration theme from the solved puzzles.
The Greek Gardens is spot on with the Greek theme of the Cleveland puzzle. The Chicago Irish connection may be less obvious, but not unimportant. Grant was the first President to visit Ireland and while there, he was made an honorary citizen. Being from Boston, I always wondered why the Irish weren’t applied to this puzzle until I read that Chicago had the largest Irish immigrant population in the United States. Seems to make more sense when applying that piece of information.
Preiss had stated that the immigration theme was important. That train of thought was passed on to his family. Palencar has also stated that it was important to the puzzles.
How is it possible that we can ignore the value of it? I think that many of the proposed solutions discount the immigration theme because they can’t find a solid connection to it. Just my opinion, I’m sure someone will come along and create a snappy new “solve” that proves me wrong.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I don’t think loose is a very accurate description of what we know about the immigration theme from the solved puzzles.
The Greek Gardens is spot on with the Greek theme of the Cleveland puzzle. The Chicago Irish connection may be less obvious, but not unimportant. Grant was the first President to visit Ireland and while there, he was made an honorary citizen. Being from Boston, I always wondered why the Irish weren’t applied to this puzzle until I read that Chicago had the largest Irish immigrant population in the United States. Seems to make more sense when applying that piece of information.
Preiss had stated that the immigration theme was important. That train of thought was passed on to his family. Palencar has also stated that it was important to the puzzles.
How is it possible that we can ignore the value of it? I think that many of the proposed solutions discount the immigration theme because they can’t find a solid connection to it. Just my opinion, I’m sure someone will come along and create a snappy new “solve” that proves me wrong.
Maybe I should clarify, yes it is important, but if I was creating a story and book like this, with all of the possible references available, I could make each puzzle only about the particular nationality of the immigrants.
If we take Cleveland, a lot of the puzzle shows you the Italian Gardens and Shakespeare is referenced. When I look at it, there is very little that has to do with Greeks.
In Chicago, we have the Bowman, which was designed by a Croatian. The Fountain of the Great Lakes was sculpted by Lorado Taft, an American.
There are plenty of things in each puzzle that have nothing to do with the nationality of the particular group that immigrated. The overall theme hearkens back to the major immigration groups as they were back in the day, but honestly some are tenuous, like Dutch for Montreal.
I'm thinking that this immigration plot device has more to do with the underlying theme that Goonie68 worked out with the 12 Tribes of Israel being the inspiration for the story.
BINGO
I’ll clarify as well.
So far, the actual burial sites have been pretty solidly connected to the immigration groups. Not so much with verses or images.
I don’t necessarily think that this is a rigid formula that needs to be followed for the rest of the puzzles, but if a solve is missing that basic connection completely, it automatically becomes suspect to me.
To add my own thoughts to Strike13’s comments from earlier, if a solve somehow transforms and centers around a completely different immigration group, (especially one that already has a solution like Chicago/Irish) I truly believe you are off track.
Again, my opinion. I own as many casques as the next dummy.
Harley Quinn
I believe we are off track also. I have researched on the Chicago and Cleveland casque and both are in the immigration themed areas. The clues do not necessarily have immigration ties but final spot is definitely related.
Cleveland is clear, located in the Greek Cultural Garden.
Chicago located in Grant Park. There is an Irish connection there beside Grant visiting Ireland. Grant is part Irish on his mother's side. John Simpson Sr is Grant's great grand father the immigrated here from Ireland. Also when Grant visited Ireland they made him a honorary citizen, and the Grant Ancestral Homestead near Dungannon, in County Tyrone's Clogher Valley has been restored, offering tourists a glimpse of Grant's Irish ties as well as 19th century life in rural Ireland.
So that is what I have found.
maltedfalcon
I know there is supposed to be some immigration connection,
but even in the found casques, the connection is tenuous and arguable at best.
So while I am sure it exists in some way, format or idea.
I just don't see it as an actualy clue that assists you in getting closer to the casque
it might have been a clue to help narrow down the part of the country
but since we already have cities/images and verses almost completely nailed down.
I don't think it is at all a valuable clue any more.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
I know there is supposed to be some immigration connection,
but even in the found casques, the connection is tenuous and arguable at best.
So while I am sure it exists in some way, format or idea.
I just don't see it as an actualy clue that assists you in getting closer to the casque
it might have been a clue to help narrow down the part of the country
but since we already have cities/images and verses almost completely nailed down.
I don't think it is at all a valuable clue any more.
I tend to agree here MF. If we look at the whole book, the Passage and the Vanishing basically lay out the groups and the geographic areas, more or less to help us assign the Images and Litany clues, and to a lesser degree the Verses. It's kind of like the 30,000 foot view of the puzzles.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
I know there is supposed to be some immigration connection,
but even in the found casques, the connection is tenuous and arguable at best.
So while I am sure it exists in some way, format or idea.
I just don't see it as an actualy clue that assists you in getting closer to the casque
it might have been a clue to help narrow down the part of the country
but since we already have cities/images and verses almost completely nailed down.
I don't think it is at all a valuable clue any more.
Seems a bit hasty to completely dismiss something that has clearly worked for the two known casque locations. Just because we are convinced that we have the city, verse and image pairings correct, doesn’t mean we have the slightest clue where the remaining casques are located or what clues are important in finding them.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
clearly worked for the two known casque locations..
eh clearly the united states has immigrants all over it you would be hard pressed to find any city on the east or west coast that
did not have a huge immigrant history and population
To say It worked in Chicago and Cleveland without knowing exactly what it was that worked is not helpful at all because you can't apply it anyplace else.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
eh clearly the united states has immigrants all over it you would be hard pressed to find any city on the east or west coast that
did not have a huge immigrant history and population
To say It worked in Chicago and Cleveland without knowing exactly what it was that worked is not helpful at all because you can't apply it anyplace else.
So you are saying that Cleveland being the Greek puzzle and the casque being located in the Greek cultural gardens is merely coincidence? I’ll grant you (pun for fun)) Chicago is less obvious, but the Irish ties are strong and difficult for me to ignore.
If Preiss and Palencar are known for stressing the importance of immigration, I find it difficult to simply dismiss it. You’ve been hunting much longer than I have on this, so I’ll just leave it as respectful disagreement.
Ever give any thought as to why the 18th day/12hour line in verse 3 is pointing us to Boston? If so, you probably already know that the person and the church connected to that line are located within the Italian district/community in Boston? Probably just another coincidence and should be ignored.
catherwood
a respectful compromise, maybe, is that the specific casque location will confirm after-the-fact a specific immigrant connection, but the nationality alone cannot lead you from a general city theme to a target dig spot, how's that?
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
So you are saying that Cleveland being the Greek puzzle and the casque being located in the Greek cultural gardens is merely coincidence? I’ll grant you (pun for fun)) Chicago is less obvious, but the Irish ties are strong and difficult for me to ignore.
If Preiss and Palencar are known for stressing the importance of immigration, I find it difficult to simply dismiss it. You’ve been hunting much longer than I have on this, so I’ll just leave it as respectful disagreement.
Ever give any thought as to why the 18th day/12hour line in verse 3 is pointing us to Boston? If so, you probably already know that the person and the church connected to that line are located within the Italian district/community in Boston? Probably just another coincidence and should be ignored.
Does anyone believe that there is a strong Asian connection for the SF puzzle, e.g. the casque is buried in Chinatown?
I will follow this question up with Houston. Can anyone make a strong connection to Persia or Araby in the Houston puzzle? Other than being the oil capital of the US.
BINGO
catherwood wrote::
a respectful compromise, maybe, is that the specific casque location will confirm after-the-fact a specific immigrant connection, but the nationality alone cannot lead you from a general city theme to a target dig spot, how's that?
I completely agree. Being from Boston, I had a very hard time believing that the Irish wouldn’t be firmly attached to this city. To the point of wondering if the green gem in the image was actually an emerald and another mix up with the gems had occurred. I never knew and wouldn’t have guessed that Chicago had more than double the Irish immigrant population compared to Boston.
I’ve mentioned before that there doesn’t seem to be a direct connection to verse or image to the immigration of the particular city/location. So far, it’s only consistent with the burial sites. If a 3rd casque is ever recovered, it will be the ultimate test to an immigration connection. I’m just not ready to dismiss the potential until it is debunked.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Does anyone believe that there is a strong Asian connection for the SF puzzle, e.g. the casque is buried in Chinatown
I’ll answer your question with another question. Do you or anyone know where the SF casque is buried? There are hundreds of pages in this forum that list dozens of solves for dozens of locations.
You definitely can’t dismiss anything without knowing that one little important detail.
Chinatown offers the same evidence and results that the portals of the past has produced to date.
Missed the second part added to your comment. The Children’s zoo in Houston was fairly well searched and I do believe that the evidence pointed there. If I remember correctly, there were different continents represented in the hot search zone. I’m not positive that Asia (the Arab continent) was represented there, but if it was, it would be a pretty interesting place to search.
This doesn’t seem to be all that radical of a thought process. Kind of surprised by the close mindedness.
Choice
SF cask could very well be in St. Mary's Square near Dragon's Gate, hence her cradle position of her arms.
Merry Christmas everyone!
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I’ll answer your question with another question. Do you or anyone know where the SF casque is buried? There are hundreds of pages in this forum that list dozens of solves for dozens of locations.
You definitely can’t dismiss anything without knowing that one little important detail.
Chinatown offers the same evidence and results that the portals of the past has produced to date.
Missed the second part added to your comment. The Children’s zoo in Houston was fairly well searched and I do believe that the evidence pointed there. If I remember correctly, there were different continents represented in the hot search zone. I’m not positive that Asia (the Arab continent) was represented there, but if it was, it would be a pretty interesting place to search.
This doesn’t seem to be all that radical of a thought process. Kind of surprised by the close mindedness.
Not being close minded at all, actually the opposite, since if we pigeon-hole ourselves into assuming that the casque locations have to be in a location where the immigration theme matches then we are in fact limiting ourselves. I am not saying that you are incorrect at all BINGO, just that I have not seen a whole lot of evidence, both with the found casques and the other physical locations (parks, etc.) to fully support the theory.
BTW, as much as I love the Portals theory that I came up with, I have abandoned GGP altogether, along with Mother's Rest in the Fens. The clues don't really support it.
Asia was represented in the Children's Zoo, although I am not a proponent of that area of Hermann Park. Even if it was there, it is a real stretch to say that matches an Araby immigration theme. This is why I believe the concept is more generalized. Just like Lake Park in Milwaukee is generically German, only because Germans settled in the area. Or Montreal, only because some early Dutch explorers visited.
BINGO
Just drop it. You don’t buy it. It’s ok. At this point everyone is speculating on both sides of the discussion. The only thing that may help move the discussion forward or kill it completely would be a new casque. I’ll keep my fingers crossed, but I won’t hold my breathe.
Happy holidays.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
So you are saying that Cleveland being the Greek puzzle and the casque being located in the Greek cultural gardens is merely coincidence? I’ll grant you (pun for fun)) Chicago is less obvious, but the Irish ties are strong and difficult for me to ignore.
If Preiss and Palencar are known for stressing the importance of immigration, I find it difficult to simply dismiss it. You’ve been hunting much longer than I have on this, so I’ll just leave it as respectful disagreement.
Ever give any thought as to why the 18th day/12hour line in verse 3 is pointing us to Boston? If so, you probably already know that the person and the church connected to that line are located within the Italian district/community in Boston? Probably just another coincidence and should be ignored.
Well considering the image is basically purely roman imagery the greek connection is a bit of a surprise.
also since that person and the church are English, I guess that equals italian somehow.
But yes lots of immigration imagery and connections - nobody has any ideas at all that make it into something like a clue.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
also since that person and the church are English, I guess that equals italian somehow.
The Old North Church and its lanterns are still firmly planted in the heart of the North End in Boston. Paul Revere’s “home” is still firmly planted on North St/North Square in the North End as well.
The North End is where the majority of Italian immigrants settled and sold their goods and services. Many are still there to this day. Some people (except for locals) call this area “Little Italy”. Many tourists and history buffs walk a brick lined path through the city called the Freedom Trail. These and many other historical places are official stops on the path. Know anyone who might be a fan of a good walking path theory Matt?
I am simply trying to explore an idea that the LOTJ immigration assignments may have a connection to the ACTUAL BURIAL SITES. Roman influences in the Greek image has nothing to do with this discussion. The Greek casque being buried in the Greek Gardens is the focus. The Irish casque being buried in a city and park with strong Irish connections is less direct, but still on a similar path.
Everyone has their theories and few are universally accepted. I’m ok with that. I’m just interested in seeing if there is any meat on this bone.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Everyone has their theories and few are universally accepted. I’m ok with that. I’m just interested in seeing if there is any meat on this bone.
I'm with you there, except calling them the greek casque or the Irish casque, is making huge assumptions.
For all you know the Irish casque is actually the Illniwek or the Illinois, or even the kickapoo casque...
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
I'm with you there, except calling them the greek casque or the Irish casque, is making huge assumptions.
For all you know the Irish casque is actually the Illniwek or the Illinois, or even the kickapoo casque...
Ahh, I get it now. You’re not a subscriber to the immigration/LOTJ/gemstone connections in general. If that’s the case, I definitely understand your resistance now. That’s fair.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Ahh, I get it now. You’re not a subscriber to the immigration/LOTJ/gemstone connections in general. If that’s the case, I definitely understand your resistance now. That’s fair.
That's true, I think you seriously can ignore the rest of the book.
MrBackstop
BINGO , here are the photos you showed me that I used for reference.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/fXH38HI
I can see what you mean by how different the plots look today versus then. But like I mentioned, that pointed part of the 3'x3'x3' triangle I posted appears to be the same....maybe not, but looks like it to me.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
BINGO , here are the photos you showed me that I used for reference.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/fXH38HI
I can see what you mean by how different the plots look today versus then. But like I mentioned, that pointed part of the 3'x3'x3' triangle I posted appears to be the same....maybe not, but looks like it to me.
Broken link dude.
MrBackstop
Let me add something new to the conversation in the Fens, the star behind Erin. This is another clue that has two meanings.
It represents the Celtic Cross on the John Boyle O'Reilly statue behind Erin and her sons. The star, which is over her left shoulder in Image 11, also represents St. Clement which is over her left shoulder when viewed from Victory Gardens. So how do I come up with that? Do you see the number 1105 on Erin's left arm? That is the address for St. Clement....1105 Boylston Street.
BINGO
Before and after (publishing of the book) photos of the Victory Gardens. This is the comparison photo that Mr. Backstop was referring to above.
I posted a conversation about the lettered paths in the verse 3 thread on page 63.
https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png
BINGO
MrBackstop wrote::
Let me add something new to the conversation in the Fens, the star behind Erin. This is another clue that has two meanings.
It represents the Celtic Cross on the John Boyle O'Reilly statue behind Erin and her sons. The star, which is over her left shoulder in Image 11, also represents St. Clement which is over her left shoulder when viewed from Victory Gardens. So how do I come up with that? Do you see the number 1105 on Erin's left arm? That is the address for St. Clement....1105 Boylston Street.
The JBO statue has been moved over 40’ from its original location. How can you be sure what was over Erin’s shoulder when the book, verse and painting were created? Even with the available pictures of the statue in its original location, it is very difficult to determine the orientation of the characters on the statue in relation to the surrounding buildings.
Not to mention, enhanced 911 changed the street addresses of tens of thousands of properties in Massachusetts. Are you sure that address to the church hasn’t changed? Not trying to be negative, just trying to eliminate possible loose ends with things that are strongly dependent on interpretation.
MrBackstop
If that church's address changed in the last 40 years I have no idea. As for JBO statue, yes you made me aware of that move from the traffic triangle to where it is today. It is slightly skewed but just about facing the same direction where it originally was. So with that in mind and looking at the historic photo of its original spot, the angle over Erin's shoulder would be the same.
MrBackstop
BINGO wrote::
Before and after (publishing of the book) photos of the Victory Gardens. This is the comparison photo that Mr. Backstop was referring to above.
I posted a conversation about the lettered paths in the verse 3 thread on page 63.
https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png
Thanks BINGO, that is a great reference photo.
BINGO
Found this light at the Police Department in the center of town. I asked a Boston Police officer (a secret hunter and enthusiast) if he knew about this light. According to him it was one of many police emergency call boxes scattered throughout the city. I could not get any more information from the officer and he has now made it clear that he has no interest in sharing what he knows.
I grew up here and I have no memory of these boxes. I have spoken to other Boston locals and they have no memory of the lights/call boxes either. Myself and Strike13 have walked the city and scoured the internet for the last week looking for any information. No luck. Any locals have a recollection of these lights/boxes?
There are still plenty of similar Fire Department call boxes throughout the city with red Globes. I am assuming that the Police boxes were similar with a blue globe. Any insights are welcome.
Fire Department Call Box
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Found this light at the Police Department in the center of town. I asked a Boston Police officer (a secret hunter and enthusiast) if he knew about this light. According to him it was one of many police emergency call boxes scattered throughout the city. I could not get any more information from the officer and he has now made it clear that he has no interest in sharing what he knows.
I grew up here and I have no memory of these boxes. I have spoken to other Boston locals and they have no memory of the lights/call boxes either. Myself and Strike13 have walked the city and scoured the internet for the last week looking for any information. No luck. Any locals have a recollection of these lights/boxes?
There are still plenty of similar Fire Department call boxes throughout the city with red Globes. I am assuming that the Police boxes were similar with a blue globe. Any insights are welcome.
Fire Department Call Box
Nice find! Are there any marking or the mfg. name on the fixture?
BINGO
I didn't see anything on the front/sides. Ill give it another look tomorrow morning to see if I can find anything on the back. There has to be something.
Trapezoid
I've seen the red ones, can't recall any blue ones still around anywhere. You can find blue police equivalents on GIS but they all have a small, caged lightbulb on top, no globes.
My first thought was the campus police call boxes colleges have. I know I've seen versions of them around Harvard. I'm not sure when colleges started using these, but maybe they used Gamewell-style streetlamps in the past.
Trapezoid
BINGO, if
this is the light
you're talking about, I don't think it's from a call box. There are
similar globe streetlights
in the area, and the police department probably just painted theirs blue.
BINGO
Trapezoid wrote::
BINGO, if
this is the light
you're talking about, I don't think it's from a call box. There are
similar globe streetlights
in the area, and the police department probably just painted theirs blue.
That is the light and it’s definitely not a call box. The call box discussion came directly from the police officer that I spoke with. I’ve been trying to verify if they actually ever existed like he claimed. And if they did, where were/are they?
I know this guy very well and he is very trustworthy, so I don’t think he telling me a tale.
That Globe isn’t just painted blue, it has a crystal like pattern throughout the glass. I don’t believe the fire call box globes are just painted red either. I think the glass itself is red throughout. The clear and white Globe lights are all over the place in the city. I think this was obviously a style that the city used for decades. It’s very possible that the fire and potential police lights were mimicking this style.
This all could just be coincidence, but if those lights/call boxes really did exist, it would be a very good explanation of what the blue globes in the image might really be. I don’t have the answers, I’m just looking for help trying to find them. Good or bad.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I didn't see anything on the front/sides. Ill give it another look tomorrow morning to see if I can find anything on the back. There has to be something.
If this is the one I'm seeing on Street View, it does not appear to be a call box at all, just a blue globe that was often used at police stations to identify it as a P.D.
There is also some evidence that there were call boxes in the early 1900s that had blue lights and the fire boxes were red. Maybe the fire boxes outlived the police call boxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_box
burnstyle
gManTexas wrote::
If this is the one I'm seeing on Street View, it does not appear to be a call box at all, just a blue globe that was often used at police stations to identify it as a P.D.
There is also some evidence that there were call boxes in the early 1900s that had blue lights and the fire boxes were red. Maybe the fire boxes outlived the police call boxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_box
The fire call boxes in Boston are rather historic. I doubt the city would want to take them down. The firefighters would push back really hard against their removal too.
strike13
Trapezoid wrote::
I've seen the red ones, can't recall any blue ones still around anywhere. You can find blue police equivalents on GIS but they all have a small, caged lightbulb on top, no globes.
My first thought was the campus police call boxes colleges have. I know I've seen versions of them around Harvard. I'm not sure when colleges started using these, but maybe they used Gamewell-style streetlamps in the past.
I will add that the blue one here is muuuuch bigger of a sphere in circumference than any of those red ones. Totally different in size, not just a difference in color. And, as Bong just said, totally different in the way they are colored, the red vs. the blue.
strike13
strike13 wrote::
I will add that the blue one here is muuuuch bigger of a sphere in circumference than any of those red ones. Totally different in size, not just a difference in color. And, as Bong just said, totally different in the way they are colored, the red vs. the blue.
Bingo, not Bong.
Although nada wrong w a bong...
drunknerds
BINGO wrote::
I asked a Boston Police officer (a secret hunter and enthusiast) if he knew about this light. According to him it was one of many police emergency call boxes scattered throughout the city. I could not get any more information from the officer and
he has now made it clear that he has no interest in sharing what he knows.
Can't wait for a crazy hunter to get arrested in Boston and claim police conspiracy
gManTexas
Hey, let's talk about the bird in Image 11. I think a lot of people have taken it on face value that it is a Peregrine Falcon. I can see some similarities, although maybe the bird is sort of nondescript, could be a pigeon. The thing is, it is very prominent in the image but no one really talks about it.
Plus for Peregrine:
The word peregrine and pilgrim are similar because they are essentially the same word, or rather, they come from the same root word. In this case, the root word is the Latin peregrinus, meaning ‘foreigner’. Also we have Peregrine White, was the first baby boy born on the Mayflower in the harbor of Massachusetts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_White
Negative for Peregrine:
Peregrine Falcons had been wiped out in the Northeast in the 1950's from the widespread use of DDT. This chemical was banned in 1972 and the Peregrines were reintroduced in the mid to late 80s. This would mean that there were no Peregrines to be found in Boston at the time of the book.
https://www.uml.edu/falcons/about.aspx
What are people's thoughts? Should we be making a connection to some other bird?
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Hey, let's talk about the bird in Image 11. I think a lot of people have taken it on face value that it is a Peregrine Falcon. I can see some similarities, although maybe the bird is sort of nondescript, could be a pigeon. The thing is, it is very prominent in the image but no one really talks about it.
Plus for Peregrine:
The word peregrine and pilgrim are similar because they are essentially the same word, or rather, they come from the same root word. In this case, the root word is the Latin peregrinus, meaning ‘foreigner’. Also we have Peregrine White, was the first baby boy born on the Mayflower in the harbor of Massachusetts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_White
Negative for Peregrine:
Peregrine Falcons had been wiped out in the Northeast in the 1950's from the widespread use of DDT. This chemical was banned in 1972 and the Peregrines were reintroduced in the mid to late 80s. This would mean that there were no Peregrines to be found in Boston at the time of the book.
https://www.uml.edu/falcons/about.aspx
What are people's thoughts? Should we be making a connection to some other bird?
Yeah, that's great insight... I think I'm convinced it's some other bird. Plus, using a bird just to say "hey, it's somewhere where this bird used to be" feels like something an aspiring publisher like Preiss would avoid. Drawing good birds is hard, and birds fly everywhere.
DA25550
gManTexas wrote::
...
Should we be making a connection to some other bird?
Could it be a red tailed hawk? Meaning the tail end of the red line? Is there any red on the bird's tail? I can't tell from the scans.
Anyways, the Porcellian club had a T stop directly opposite in 1982. There's a pig-like drawing in the painting to the left of the "T" the bird sits on and Harvard was the end of the red-line for the early 80s.
The uncertainty is the 1982 Harvard stations were temporary. Would Preiss have anticipated the new Harvard station when the book was published? In truth, be free.
gManTexas
DA25550 wrote::
Could it be a red tailed hawk? Meaning the tail end of the red line? Is there any red on the bird's tail? I can't tell from the scans.
Anyways, the Porcellian club had a T stop directly opposite in 1982. There's a pig-like drawing in the painting to the left of the "T" the bird sits on and Harvard was the end of the red-line for the early 80s.
The uncertainty is the 1982 Harvard stations were temporary. Would Preiss have anticipated the new Harvard station when the book was published? In truth, be free.
This is interesting. I want to mull it over a bit, but great line of thinking.
JamesV
DA25550 wrote::
Could it be a red tailed hawk? Meaning the tail end of the red line? Is there any red on the bird's tail? I can't tell from the scans.
Anyways, the Porcellian club had a T stop directly opposite in 1982. There's a pig-like drawing in the painting to the left of the "T" the bird sits on and Harvard was the end of the red-line for the early 80s.
The uncertainty is the 1982 Harvard stations were temporary. Would Preiss have anticipated the new Harvard station when the book was published? In truth, be free.
It's been a few years since I've last visited Cambridge, but I'm pretty sure one of the gates around Harvard Yard has a pig on it. Might the school's logo, "Veritas" ("Truth"), be seen somewhere near the final dig site?
JamesV
FYI, the "McLean Gate" at Harvard Yard has a pig head on it, and it's apparently named after the founder of the Porcelain Club.
BINGO
Bored, frustrated and without inspiration or clear direction for Boston, I used the nice weather from Friday to do some exploring that I had been purposely avoiding. No major developments to announce, but I'll share the stops that I made.
Stop #1: Victory Gardens at the Fens
I walked Path P along the Muddy River to see which paths had the best view of Fenway Park and its lights. For Mr. Backstop, I probed the intersection of Path P and U at the compost area. There is a ton of brush there, so I did the best that I could.
Pros:
-Fenway and its lights are visible. The green monster is not visible. (Summer months with leaf cover will certainly diminish that view.)
-The reeds along the Muddy River are reminiscent of the hair of our Lady in image 11.
Cons:
-No aha moments or breathtaking visuals that scream Image 11.
-The soil is easily probed after the recent rain event. I didn't find much resistance from anything in the soil, it appears that 2'-3' of that soil has been turned regularly.
The intersection of Path P and X was interesting. It appears that there was a light pole there in the past. The only problem that I have with Path X is the time of its construction. I still believe that it was created post publication.
MrBackstop
Great stuff BINGO, thanks for showing some of this area. Interesting that there used to be a lamppost in that area.
BINGO
Stop #2:
A small patch of land that is directly across the street from the Cask n Flagon Bar. It is also directly behind the Green Monster at Fenway Park and adjacent to the Mass Pike (I90).
The small plot has been undeveloped and unchanged since before the book was published. I don't think is has a lot going for it, but people have made verse connections to the Mass Pike (near those who pass), the Green Monster (Green tower of lights/metals walls) and the word
CASK
is plastered all over the building just a few feet away.
Similar results with the probe. No aha moments, no grand visuals.
BINGO
Don't know what to make of this bad boy, but I kind of like it.
Found it with a random "in truth, be free - Boston" google search. I believe it is stained glass and there are others like Socrates, Da Vinci, etc. All have their own theme like truth, mathematics, art, etc. Nothing for our buddy Xenophon or free that I could find. Maybe others have something to share or add to it...
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Don't know what to make of this bad boy, but I kind of like it.
Found it with a random "in truth, be free - Boston" google search. I believe it is stained glass and there are others like Socrates, Da Vinci, etc. All have their own theme like truth, mathematics, art, etc. Nothing for our buddy Xenophon or free that I could find. Maybe others have something to share or add to it...
Where is this located? Some church in the area?
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Where is this located? Some church in the area?
Not really sure. There is an art archive of it at the BPL, (along with every other piece of art ever created) but it also mentioned that it was stained glass from Plymouth County Massachusetts.
gManTexas
Bingo,
This is pretty interesting. Seems worth trying to shake it down a bit.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Bingo,
This is pretty interesting. Seems worth trying to shake it down a bit.
Created by Charles Jay Connick. Painter, muralist, best known for stained glass.
Born 1875, died 1945.
Opened a studio in Boston in 1913.
Has created a ton of shit.
The studio continued after his death and closed in 1986. Most of the work was then donated to the BPL and MIT to be conserved. I would be much more excited if there was a Xenophon/Free connection to all of this. Possibly just another odd coincidence.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Created by Charles Jay Connick. Painter, muralist, best known for stained glass.
Born 1875, died 1945.
Opened a studio in Boston in 1913.
Has created a ton of shit.
The studio continued after his death and closed in 1986. Most of the work was then donated to the BPL and MIT to be conserved. I would be much more excited if there was a Xenophon/Free connection to all of this. Possibly just another odd coincidence.
Reading about Connick now, fascinating guy and body of work. Not sure if he's related to the hunt, but had a studio in Back Bay.
catherwood
gManTexas wrote::
Reading about Connick now, fascinating guy and body of work. Not sure if he's related to the hunt, but had a studio in Back Bay.
(Please don't include the external images when you quote a post like that.)
JamesV
BINGO wrote::
Not really sure. There is an art archive of it at the BPL, (along with every other piece of art ever created) but it also mentioned that it was stained glass from Plymouth County Massachusetts.
Now that would be interesting... I wonder if anyone's ever seriously looked into the town of Plymouth as a possible location for the Boston casque?
strike13
Nice investigation Bingo! Just now getting back to all of this...lots to read over the last 2 weeks!
dosethree
BINGO wrote::
If you ever come to visit Boston, look me up and ill take you to look at the Columbus Statue in person. It's not even remotely close.
I wanted to talk a little bit about the Columbus statue that Bingo brought up in the Methodology thread because I'm personally interested in the statue and want to hear others thought's/ideas on what it could mean.
For me (I have visited this in person) The nose look very close and confirms it for me. The mouth is also close, especially the corners. And they both feature similar prominent cheek bones. The eyes and the eyebrows look reasonably close as well.
The whole "it doesn't look like it in person" argument doesn't really fly for me because Palencar made the paintings based off photos provided to him by Byron (and it doesn't look any different to me in person anyways).
Also the rest of the facts about the statue fit pretty well for me - Columbus is Italian, and was specifically called out by name in the beginning of the book. The statue was a recently installed before 1981 and was a prominent feature in 1981. The location also makes sense - its not like it's out in the middle of nowhere - it's located right in the heart of Boston, in the Italian section to boot and close to the freedom trail + Paul revere house. It's location in a waterfront park may also hold some significance as the painting seems martime-themed to me (maritime flags, sailor dress, etc...). None of these really mean anything (except maybe him being called out by name in the book), but it definitely is on theme with the puzzle.
The other thing that is crazy to me is, I think this is the only image match in all of Boston that personally for me is confirmed. To me there really aren't that many contenders for legit image matches we have found so far - I tend to think that 2c isn't a strong match and there isn't enough surrounding evidenced/significance to the area for me.
That said, what does it mean to the hunt? Image matches are interesting and awesome when they aren't debatable like this one. The buildings in Cleveland and Chicago weren't close to the casque and I tend to think they were just city confirmers. We can all agree in image 12 it's the Statue of liberty, but that hasn't really helped with that search.
As far as where this statue might lead us if it is truly a match, I have definitely tried to match "His direction" to be the direction of Columbus's statue (mostly because I don't have any good matches at all for what " T&X or His direction" means and a statue's direction fits the best for me, the line is so ambiguous). But, unfortunately Columbus is is staring off to into the harbor/tip of long warf. I don't think the statue has moved since 1981 but would love more pictures of the park from that time period if anyone has them.
edit: spelling
strike13
dosethree wrote::
I wanted to talk a little bit about the Columbus statue that Bingo brought up in the Methodology thread because I'm personally interested in the statue and want to hear others thought's/ideas on what it could mean.
For me (I have visited this in person) The noses look very close and confirms it for me. The mouth is also close, especially the corners. And they both feature similar prominent cheek bones. The eyes and the eyebrows look reasonably close as well.
The whole "it doesn't look like it in person" argument doesn't really fly for me because Palencar made the paintings based off photos provided to him by Byron (and it doesn't look any different to me in person anyways).
Also the rest of the facts about the statue fit pretty well for me - Columbus is Italian, and was specifically called out by name in the beginning of the book. The statue was a recently installed before 1981 and was a prominent feature in 1981. The location also makes sense - its not like it's out in the middle of nowhere - it's located right in the heart of Boston, in the Italian section to boot and close to the freedom trail + Paul revere house. It's location in a waterfront park may also hold some significance as the painting seems martime-themed to me (maritime flags, sailor dress, etc...). None of these really mean anything (except maybe him being called out by name in the book), but it definitely is on theme with the puzzle.
The other thing that is crazy to me is, I think this is the only image match in all of Boston that personally for me is confirmed. To me there really aren't that many contenders for legit image matches we have found so far - I tend to think that 2c isn't a strong match and there isn't enough surrounding evidenced/significance to the area for me.
That said, what does it mean to the hunt? Image matches are interesting and awesome when they aren't debatable like this one. The buildings in Cleveland and Chicago weren't close to the casque and I tend to think they were just city confirmers. We can all agree in image 12 it's the Statue of liberty, but that hasn't really helped with that search.
As far as where this statue might lead us if it is truly a match, I have definitely tried to match "His direction" to be the direction of Columbus's statue (mostly because I don't have any good matches at all for what " T&X or His direction" means and a statue's direction fits the best for me, the line is so ambiguous). But, unfortunately Columbus is is stairing off to into the harbor/tip of long warf. I don't think the statue has moved since 1981 but would love more pictures of the park from that time period if anyone has them.
I disagree with the Columbus statue as well. Was even trying to make him fit something yesterday...
https://imgur.com/a/mcPpfRy
However, I obviously love the North End/waterfront area for this. For Paul revere, for the italian connection, for the connection to the old north church, for many other reasons too. I am just having a problem with likening the woman in the image to Columbus, as a match.
That being said, I will look for some old pics of the park
gManTexas
The woman in Image 11 looks more like the statue than the statue looks like Columbus.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
The woman in Image 11 looks more like the statue than the statue looks like Columbus.
and dolly
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
and dolly
LOL, I wish that was the connection that unravelled this puzzle.
Choice
strike13 wrote::
... dolly
I like Donna Summer with big hair
BINGO
dosethree wrote::
I wanted to talk a little bit about the Columbus statue that Bingo brought up in the Methodology thread because I'm personally interested in the statue and want to hear others thought's/ideas on what it could mean.
For me (I have visited this in person) The nose look very close and confirms it for me. The mouth is also close, especially the corners. And they both feature similar prominent cheek bones. The eyes and the eyebrows look reasonably close as well.
The whole "it doesn't look like it in person" argument doesn't really fly for me because Palencar made the paintings based off photos provided to him by Byron (and it doesn't look any different to me in person anyways).
Also the rest of the facts about the statue fit pretty well for me - Columbus is Italian, and was specifically called out by name in the beginning of the book. The statue was a recently installed before 1981 and was a prominent feature in 1981. The location also makes sense - its not like it's out in the middle of nowhere - it's located right in the heart of Boston, in the Italian section to boot and close to the freedom trail + Paul revere house. It's location in a waterfront park may also hold some significance as the painting seems martime-themed to me (maritime flags, sailor dress, etc...). None of these really mean anything (except maybe him being called out by name in the book), but it definitely is on theme with the puzzle.
The other thing that is crazy to me is, I think this is the only image match in all of Boston that personally for me is confirmed. To me there really aren't that many contenders for legit image matches we have found so far - I tend to think that 2c isn't a strong match and there isn't enough surrounding evidenced/significance to the area for me.
That said, what does it mean to the hunt? Image matches are interesting and awesome when they aren't debatable like this one. The buildings in Cleveland and Chicago weren't close to the casque and I tend to think they were just city confirmers. We can all agree in image 12 it's the Statue of liberty, but that hasn't really helped with that search.
As far as where this statue might lead us if it is truly a match, I have definitely tried to match "His direction" to be the direction of Columbus's statue (mostly because I don't have any good matches at all for what " T&X or His direction" means and a statue's direction fits the best for me, the line is so ambiguous). But, unfortunately Columbus is is staring off to into the harbor/tip of long warf. I don't think the statue has moved since 1981 but would love more pictures of the park from that time period if anyone has them.
edit: spelling
Fair enough. I completely disagree with your take on the statue and the 50 or so random people who I have shown image 11 to while standing in front of it also disagree. Unanimously. I honestly think that people who are exposed to the suggestion (specifically from the wiki) of a match, are the people who see it the most. It’s ok though, we don’t have to agree. I’m cool with that.
On the other hand, I am a huge fan of the North End and everything it has to offer this puzzle. There is a ton of circumstantial evidence that could lead to that area, but nothing rock solid to my knowledge that could pinpoint an actual dig site. I wish it was different, ask Strike13, I’m constantly wandering around that area begging for clues.
That waterfront park was completely overhauled at some point. The wooden arches didn’t exist, the statue was in a completely different location and everything was very different from what you see today. I believe the 1977 aerial photo on mapjunction.com shows the old configuration. The 1983 aerial photo that is still being updated should give us a much better idea of the park layout at the time of publication. That 1983 photo is slowly being added to and it gets better every time they update it. Recently found a small area on the esplanade that I never knew existed. Hopefully that aerial helps unlock more tidbits of lost information.
Call me simple, (like Choice says I am) but attempting to decode the verse without standing near some type of solid image match, is an excercise in chasing your tail. Again, my opinion. Others disagree and I’m good with that.
gManTexas
How similar should the match be to an object or painting? As far as I can tell, none of the other people in the Images are an exact match to something.
We have people comparing the person in:
Image 1 to the sphinx statues in GGP.
Image 5 to Grant and or Lincoln.
Image 9 to John Macdonald.
Image 10 to the lions on the bridge in Lake Park.
Image 12 to the Statue of Liberty.
There seems to be subtle similarities in each case. How much of a match is necessary to say yes, that's it!
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
How similar should the match be to an object or painting? As far as I can tell, none of the other people in the Images are an exact match to something.
We have people comparing the person in:
Image 1 to the sphinx statues in GGP.
Image 5 to Grant and or Lincoln.
Image 9 to John Macdonald.
Image 10 to the lions on the bridge in Lake Park.
Image 12 to the Statue of Liberty.
There seems to be subtle similarities in each case. How much of a match is necessary to say yes, that's it!
My point exactly. Image 5 was solved. How much did the similarity or lack therof to Grant (or Lincoln?) help that puzzle? How many of the others have helped their respective puzzle solutions? I’m pretty sure the answer is the same.
I hear plenty of people complain about the Statue of Liberty not being a good match. I challenge you to try my method with it. Show a bunch of people ( who know nothing of the secret) that image and have them tell you what it looks like. I would be willing to bet that the results are the exact opposite of what I have found with the Columbus Statue. Near 100% will tell you it is lady liberty.
People love to pick out the differences with the legeater. This is preposterous.
My point to all of this is simple. If you want a good idea if an image match is for real, ask people who have no skin in the game. They haven’t been influenced by the wiki or someone telling them what it should be. They also don’t have solves that they are ruthlessly trying to protect the integrity of.
BINGO
dosethree wrote::
For me (I have visited this in person) The nose look very close and confirms it for me. The mouth is also close, especially the corners. And they both feature similar prominent cheek bones. The eyes and the eyebrows look reasonably close as well.
One other item I failed to mention before. The face and its features are actually difficult to see in person. The head is pretty high in the air and at an awkward angle when viewing it from the ground. I am 6’1” and the full features are hard for me to see from the ground.
I have actually climbed up on the base to get a better look. I also find the best view of the face comes from taking a picture while holding my phone above my head. To me, the view from any of those angles just doesn’t look similar. Just my $0.02.
There is no bigger fan of the North End than me. I actually want to see the similarity.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
My point exactly. Image 5 was solved. How much did the similarity or lack therof to Grant (or Lincoln?) help that puzzle? How many of the others have helped their respective puzzle solutions? I’m pretty sure the answer is the same.
I hear plenty of people complain about the Statue of Liberty not being a good match. I challenge you to try my method with it. Show a bunch of people ( who know nothing of the secret) that image and have them tell you what it looks like. I would be willing to bet that the results are the exact opposite of what I have found with the Columbus Statue. Near 100% will tell you it is lady liberty.
People love to pick out the differences with the legeater. This is preposterous.
My point to all of this is simple. If you want a good idea if an image match is for real, ask people who have no skin in the game. They haven’t been influenced by the wiki or someone telling them what it should be. They also don’t have solves that they are ruthlessly trying to protect the integrity of.
I agree with most of your points, but let's show any of the other images besides NY to someone with no skin in the game and they wouldn't be able to place them. The area that it corresponds to is relevant, but I don't believe there are any exact matches. Some of the "people" in the images actually appear to be an amalgamation of several references. Notice that I am only focused on the Images with main character people in them, not the legeater, or the bowman, etc. The primary figures in the images are more subtle.
Image 5, and 4 for that matter, were not "solved". The casques were found. Neither of the sets of guys actually figured out the entire puzzle. And, for what it is worth, those puzzles were two of the easiest ones. In the case of Chicago, had they said, "that guy looks a bit like Grant or Lincoln", it might have gotten them there sooner.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Image 5, and 4 for that matter, were not "solved". The casques were found. Neither of the sets of guys actually figured out the entire puzzle. And, for what it is worth, those puzzles were two of the easiest ones. In the case of Chicago, had they said, "that guy looks a bit like Grant or Lincoln", it might have gotten them there sooner.
Ok, I generally disagree with most of the above statement. But, I’ll play along.
If the Columbus statue truly is the inspiration for Dolly, Pandora, Erin, etc., how does it help solve the puzzle for Boston?Almost everyone who thinks that the statue matches wants to start their search from the BPL. Why not start at the statue? Very few, if any, “solves” include visiting the statue at all. Many people believe the Kelleher Rose garden is also a match for the image. Almost no one starts or finishes there either.
Why do the people who believe in this statue so much tend not to use it in their solutions? If it truly is a match, why is it so unimportant?
To me, it doesn’t look anything like the image. That’s my opinion and I respect the others who disagree. I’m always looking for reasons to put the casque in the North End of Boston, but this statue just doesn’t help with a good unbiased solution in that area.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Ok, I generally disagree with most of the above statement. But, I’ll play along.
If the Columbus statue truly is the inspiration for Dolly, Pandora, Erin, etc., how does it help solve the puzzle for Boston?Almost everyone who thinks that the statue matches wants to start their search from the BPL. Why not start at the statue? Very few, if any, “solves” include visiting the statue at all. Many people believe the Kelleher Rose garden is also a match for the image. Almost no one starts or finishes there either.
Why do the people who believe in this statue so much tend not to use it in their solutions? If it truly is a match, why is it so unimportant?
To me, it doesn’t look anything like the image. That’s my opinion and I respect the others who disagree. I’m always looking for reasons to put the casque in the North End of Boston, but this statue just doesn’t help with a good unbiased solution in that area.
Just my opinion, there needed to be an Italian connection. Personally, when I think of Boston, I don't immediately think Italian, but either way, BP painted himself into a corner with the narrative in the book.
If you live outside of Boston, what would be the most recognizable Italian connection? Probably Columbus.
None of this means that we have to start at the statue, or even really include it in the hunt.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Just my opinion, there needed to be an Italian connection. Personally, when I think of Boston, I don't immediately think Italian, but either way, BP painted himself into a corner with the narrative in the book.
If you live outside of Boston, what would be the most recognizable Italian connection? Probably Columbus.
None of this means that we have to start at the statue, or even really include it in the hunt.
If I lived outside of Boston I would never link Columbus to Boston or to Italian. We aren't really taught in school that Columbus came to Boston specifically, so for many, there would be no connection. Most wouldn't even think there would be a statue of him here, until they stumble upon it.
The most Italian connection to Boston is the North End
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
If you live outside of Boston, what would be the most recognizable Italian connection? Probably Columbus.
I would say the North End in general. More specifically North Square. People who ain’t from heyah call it “Little Italy”.
Far more popular and well known than the Columbus Statue. There is even a Wikipedia page for it.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
Or Prince Spaghetti
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Or Prince Spaghetti
Only on Wednesdays.
Bingo - I'm not saying that the casque couldn't be in the North End. It is more difficult to look at the woman in the Image and say, "that looks like Little Italy" though.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Only on Wednesdays.
Bingo - I'm not saying that the casque couldn't be in the North End. It is more difficult to look at the woman in the Image and say, "that looks like Little Italy" though.
I completely understand that. Personally, I have the same difficulty saying that it looks like the Columbus Statue.
It’s simply a matter of personal opinion. Nothing more.
mysteriousnesss
It's probably nothing but since the North End was brought up again I figured I'd share it. It's the sign from a restaurant that got converted to condos a while back. The signs still there but it's missing a lot of the letters. It looks somewhat similar to the pattern on the front of her dress. Hopefully someone hasn't already mentioned this but I couldn't find it through the search function.
BINGO
mysteriousnesss wrote::
It's probably nothing but since the North End was brought up again I figured I'd share it. It's the sign from a restaurant that got converted to condos a while back. The signs still there but it's missing a lot of the letters. It looks somewhat similar to the pattern on the front of her dress. Hopefully someone hasn't already mentioned this but I couldn't find it through the search function.
Love the E on the sign. I’m not sure how I’ve missed that all this time. Oh well, one more field trip to go on.
Thanks for sharing the pic.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
Love the E on the sign. I’m not sure how I’ve missed that all this time. Oh well, one more field trip to go on.
Thanks for sharing the pic.
And riiiiiight across the street is this......also grass patch there
https://imgur.com/a/Y01lCxw
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I'm not particularly fluent in this puzzle. But for what it's worth—and after studying the SF image in detail for months—I'm convinced that JJP employed a great deal of caricature in creating the images—and not just of the "people" who are the subjects of each image. I believe real-life objects are often depicted in caricature as well (or in just a piece or pieces of their whole), and very rarely are you going to find a clue as obvious as Chicago's pixie or tower...
I think this explains why so few exact image matches across the twelve images have been found over the years.
So my feeling is that if something in the image gives you the impression of something from the real world, it is definitely worth exploring. I believe this may well have been JJP's intent: to give the "feel" or impression of a clue without totally giving away the game visually. Presenting items in caricature, shadowy slivers, or in pieces of the whole are all viable methods for accomplishing this.
So yes, I'd say subtle similarities between objects in the image and objects in real life are definitely worth exploring as matches. Put enough of these subtle similarities together in a small geographic area that relates to the verses, and you may well be on the right track to finding the casque...
Just my two cents.
I can see some of that. In some cases, the caricatures are overt (Chicago, Montreal), but others are subtle. I'm not sure if it's to the level you are attributing, but I see your point. I do agree on the point that if your gut or spidey-senses are tingling, then it deserves more inspection.
gManTexas
Durian - sounds good. Hop over there if you want.
mysteriousnesss
Looking at the park doesn't really provide much. There isn't any discernible water unless were talking about the wharfs a few blocks down the street near Columbus Waterfront Park and I don't see any stairs either. The whole thing was redeveloped sometime after 2007 but here is the street view from beforehand. The only thing I see that seems even remotely familiar is that the squared off area sort of resembles the links on her necklace. Aside from that I don't see much here to go off of. I'd be curious if someone could check it out and see if there is/was perhaps a fire escape or a water fountain contained within the fenced area.
strike13
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Looking at the park doesn't really provide much. There isn't any discernible water unless were talking about the wharfs a few blocks down the street near Columbus Waterfront Park and I don't see any stairs either. The whole thing was redeveloped sometime after 2007 but here is the street view from beforehand. The only thing I see that seems even remotely familiar is that the squared off area sort of resembles the links on her necklace. Aside from that I don't see much here to go off of. I'd be curious if someone could check it out and see if there is/was perhaps a fire escape or a water fountain contained within the fenced area.
there isnt even that squared off area there anymore. it's a dog park. there is not a fire escape or a water fountain. i walk by this on the daily
GoldenMartyr
I have a question for all of the 2C's image match fans. Would you agree that the perch and the box handle match the boat dock(as seen in numerous maps) and the hatch shell?
To clarify, I am not asking if you have a different interpretation of these clues. Only if the imagery matches these items as well as the imagery matches the 2C's.
gManTexas
GoldenMartyr wrote::
I have a question for all of the 2C's image match fans. Would you agree that the perch and the box handle match the boat dock(as seen in numerous maps) and the hatch shell?
To clarify, I am not asking if you have a different interpretation of these clues. Only if the imagery matches these items as well as the imagery matches the 2C's.
Yes.
GoldenMartyr
If we have two image matches in close proximity that are as good as the 2c's, why is there a continued focus on the 2c's area and less focus on the esplanade near the hatch? This has always puzzled me.
gManTexas
GoldenMartyr wrote::
If we have two image matches in close proximity that are as good as the 2c's, why is there a continued focus on the 2c's area and less focus on the esplanade near the hatch? This has always puzzled me.
I'm not a huge fan of the CG (Charles Gate) structure. If anything, it a way point. In simplistic terms, it is a visual that people can latch onto. Also, it has been widely published on the WIki site, so people tend to believe it.
The lack of meaningful visuals has caused people to focus on the CG since it is one of the few things in the Image that can be plainly seen, right or wrong.
GoldenMartyr
I completely agree with you.
Choice
https://tinyurl.com/y5mbe4st
https://tinyurl.com/y3bvnr6c
strike13
Choice wrote::
Did you know there's a "man of letters" in the public garden, holding a T shaped cane. yup, there is
Choice
strike13 wrote::
Did you know there's a "man of letters" in the public garden, holding a T shaped cane. yup, there is
That may be so but I was looking for a Greek related structure per the 1st line of the verse. Samareitēs meets that requirement. I doubt Ed Hale was Greek!
Choice
My dowser line (hypothesis presented previously) points to this area of the image:
jovialowl
If we're going the public garden route. Not an exact match but the Church of the Advent has interesting similarities to the photo.
https://goo.gl/maps/q9ZcZmbjkZr
Choice
There are many castle looking structures in boston i.e.
hxxp://tinyurl.com/y25vjegq
Initially I used the castle (Castle island pleasure bay that looks like birds claw) as the eastern marker to Hatch shell's western marker.
jovialowl
Yeah just pointing out one close to near where the other clues we're in the discussion. Walking there from the garden you would walk past Byron St. Which could be a feel at home reference.
Choice
That's a good point.
In relation to the Ether monument I interpreted that as home plate location in a diamond, or the corner of the fountain.
Choice
Has this circle been there since early 80's? Looks similar to the robe neckline squares. One has a square with circle in it.
Her hair maybe the flag in the wind.
https://tinyurl.com/y6hvdszx
https://tinyurl.com/y2o5ymvs
jovialowl
I'd assume it wasn't all that different if it was at all.
https://friendsofthepublicgarden.org/wh ... -fountain/
The statue in the corner by the ether monument is called the angel of water and is dedicated to George Robert white whom also has a his name on a few things in Boston like the knights of Columbus building in the north end that has a pretty pelancar-esque mural on the back of it.
https://goo.gl/images/FQqnsT
I dug deep into the north end theory for a while
Choice
That's so funny, I posted the same site 50 mins earlier on Verse 10 thread!
BINGO
mapjunction.com
Select aerial photos from different years. 1983 is still in progress of being updated and added to, but it shows some of the Public Gardens and the Commons. Other years are also available if your area of interest isn’t covered in the 1983 map.
When you select 1983 on one side of the map and current year on the other side of the map, you can fade the images in and out. This will show you how things have changed at specific locations. It’s an incredible tool to search in Boston.
Choice
Thanks BINGO, that's a good resource. However when I compare maps with 1977 for example it just changes color and nothing else. I'm more interested in the real image i.e. tree size in the area. Apparently none of the trees grew at all!
Oh I get it now! Got to slide up or down. Cool!
strike13
Choice wrote::
That may be so but I was looking for a Greek related structure per the 1st line of the verse. Samareitēs meets that requirement. I doubt Ed Hale was Greek!
How do you feel about this for your greek theme:
hxxp://vanderkrogt.net/statues/object.p ... ord=usma12
Columbus on one end, Aristedes on the other. Only problem is this land is highly protected and there is no getting in this park
Choice
It has to be in public garden tho because of the front/rear gate image match.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
How do you feel about this for your greek theme:
hxxp://vanderkrogt.net/statues/object.p ... ord=usma12
Columbus on one end, Aristedes on the other. Only problem is this land is highly protected and there is no getting in this park
Could be way points though.
gManTexas
gManTexas wrote::
Could be way points though.
Strike, I know you like Garrison. Have a look at this article.
hxxp://bostonlitdistrict.org/venue/will ... sculpture/
"Born and raised in Newburyport, MA, Garrison was the son of immigrants from the British colony of New Brunswick, and he expressed an early interest in journalism and social justice. At the ripe age of 13, he began an an apprenticeship with the Newburyport Herald, writing articles under the pseudonym Aristides (an Athenian statesman whose nickname was “the Just”)."
Choice
Choice wrote::
That may be so but I was looking for a Greek related structure per the 1st line of the verse. Samareitēs meets that requirement. I doubt Ed Hale was Greek!
BTW Samareitēs passes Spiritr's formula too:
T
U
V
W
X
If
T
hucydides is North of
X
enophon
Take five steps In the area of his direction
5 steps north of
X
is
S
Choice
Animal Painter had a solve involving Garrison a while back (geesh, 10 yrs ago.) Wondering what happened to it.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=724&hilit=garrison+letters&start=446
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
5 steps north of
X
is
S
Nice, I like that
Now, try and see if you can combine it with the Japanese hints on Page 238 and figure something out
you do know the differences between those
keywords
and those
hints
right?
BINGO
Choice wrote::
BTW Samareitēs passes Spiritr's formula too:
T
U
V
W
X
If
T
hucydides is North of
X
enophon
Take five steps In the area of his direction
5 steps north of
X
is
S
Haaa! Spiritr’s formula? I don’t think it was his, but he can have it because it’s useless.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Could be way points though.
Louisburg sq is a waypoint to nowhere. It would be a destination. Not a waypoint
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Strike, I know you like Garrison. Have a look at this article.
hxxp://bostonlitdistrict.org/venue/will ... sculpture/
"Born and raised in Newburyport, MA, Garrison was the son of immigrants from the British colony of New Brunswick, and he expressed an early interest in journalism and social justice. At the ripe age of 13, he began an an apprenticeship with the Newburyport Herald, writing articles under the pseudonym Aristides (an Athenian statesman whose nickname was “the Just”)."
I prefer the Sarmiento statue much more than Garrison for this. Esp in his location with refence to the image...and the fact that he's referenced in another verse. Buuuuut... I do like "the just" nice one!!!!!!
Choice
BINGO wrote::
Haaa! Spiritr’s formula? I don’t think it was his, but he can have it because it’s useless.
So the line "Near those Who pass the coliseum", the words "those who pass" is another key. I interpret these as people who pass out, and the place is a coliseum looking arena.
Ether dome is a perfect fit. So the hint is: Near Ether
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
While those might be decent picks, I believe the numbers are
42 Wrist
43 Square and Triangle on dress
70 Elbow
71 Two A's on dress
That would place you in Boston.
We can all mix up letters, numbers, shapes and symbols to find zip codes, lat/long coordinates, phone numbers and addresses all day long.
Especially when we are looking for specific connections. In this image, you can get lat/long for the areas surrounding Boston, Philadelphia, Salt Lake City, Washington DC and even Cape Cod pretty easily if you look for it.
Personally, I don't like the "70" from the elbow but I fully admit to using it because of James V's comment combined with the Pill Grim in the book. As far as the triangle/square for "43", ok. I don't really think it's perfect either, but it works.
We all know the saying about opinions...
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
We can all mix up letters, numbers, shapes and symbols to find zip codes, lat/long coordinates, phone numbers and addresses all day long.
Especially when we are looking for specific connections. In this image, you can get lat/long for the areas surrounding Boston, Philadelphia, Salt Lake City, Washington DC and even Cape Cod pretty easily if you look for it.
Personally, I don't like the "70" from the elbow but I fully admit to using it because of James V's comment combined with the Pill Grim in the book. As far as the triangle/square for "43", ok. I don't really think it's perfect either, but it works.
We all know the saying about opinions...
One reason I like the square and triangle is that there are similar shapes in Image 1. I believe those are also numbers, and possibly geometric markers of some sort.
JamesV
BINGO, it's been years since I've lived in Boston, so I'm definitely not an expert on the area anymore. I've spent some time searching online, looking for clues between Plymouth Rock and the "National Monument to the Forefathers" area, but ultimately couldn't come up with much. There's also a tall Pilgrim monument at their initial landing site, all the way out in Provincetown.
Interesting find about the possible lat/long numbers...I'd not thought about that angle! If we can assume that the I11/V3 pairing is correct, I'm still leaning towards a route that would trace Paul Revere's journey out of the North End and over into Cambridge for a dig site... but who really knows?
strike13
JamesV wrote::
BINGO, it's been years since I've lived in Boston, so I'm definitely not an expert on the area anymore. I've spent some time searching online, looking for clues between Plymouth Rock and the "National Monument to the Forefathers" area, but ultimately couldn't come up with much. There's also a tall Pilgrim monument at their initial landing site, all the way out in Provincetown.
Interesting find about the possible lat/long numbers...I'd not thought about that angle! If we can assume that the I11/V3 pairing is correct, I'm still leaning towards a route that would trace Paul Revere's journey out of the North End and over into Cambridge for a dig site... but who really knows?
What do you think about Revere's ride and it's starting in the chucktown navy yard, right near the where the USS constitution sits with its "ironsides metal walls", used for the war of 1812?
JamesV
strike13 wrote::
What do you think about Revere's ride and it's starting in the chucktown navy yard, right near the where the USS constitution sits with its "ironsides metal walls", used for the war of 1812?
Strike13, I think the USS Constitution is definitely a possibility, although it's been challenging to find photos of how Charlestowne would have looked in the early 80s, pre-Big Dig. I'd also been considering the old Garden as a possible "coliseum" since it was so close by.
That last "In Truth, be free" line naturally makes me think of Harvard's "Veritas" motto, so I'd been working through a number of possible routes which would lead in that direction.
BINGO
JamesV wrote::
BINGO, it's been years since I've lived in Boston, so I'm definitely not an expert on the area anymore. I've spent some time searching online, looking for clues between Plymouth Rock and the "National Monument to the Forefathers" area, but ultimately couldn't come up with much. There's also a tall Pilgrim monument at their initial landing site, all the way out in Provincetown.
Interesting find about the possible lat/long numbers...I'd not thought about that angle! If we can assume that the I11/V3 pairing is correct, I'm still leaning towards a route that would trace Paul Revere's journey out of the North End and over into Cambridge for a dig site... but who really knows?
The Plymouth route took me by surprise this morning. I was just punching in a bunch of numbers to see what other cities may match up. The lat/long box that seemed the most logical (using visual numbers in the image) ended up encircling the Cape. I had vaguely remembered your post from earlier and also remembered reading about Plymouth in the book. Other than that, nothing else stands really out to me.
The North End has been a pet project for me for a while as well. The verse can be easily applied to multiple locations in that small area. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to produce a single convincing image connection to date. It is frustrating to say the least.
I guess we should all just follow the wiki’s direction and dig 50-60 more holes in the middle of the 2C site...
strike13
Backstop, your spot is en fuego!
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Fi ... 79761.html
MrBackstop
strike13 wrote::
Backstop, your spot is en fuego!
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Fi ... 79761.html
Wow, that's incredible....I'm interested to see what that area ends up looking like after that. Thanks for sharing that Strike.
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Backstop, your spot is en fuego!
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Fi ... 79761.html
Seems like the Fens catches fire every couple of years.
Choice
I checked this against the original book. It's definitely there; clear and well defined face similar to shroud of Turin.
mysteriousnesss
I always thought there was something hidden there but I think it extends beyond just a face.
mysteriousnesss
Same with this area on the wall. It seems like it says "SHE" followed by something undecipherable. It almost looks like "1492" underneath as well.
BINGO
Choice wrote::
I checked this against the original book. It's definitely there; clear and well defined face similar to shroud of Turin
Also similar to every bust of a bearded man in all of antiquity. Another great find.
mysteriousnesss
What about this for a match to the dress? I know its inverted and I'd really like to see a high resolution picture of it but it looks pretty similar to me. I've seen similar designs in buildings around the area but nothing that matches exactly.
BINGO
Best pic that i have of it. Don't forget to panic and celebrate the crack in the granite directly above the design.
Here is another at the end of Charter St in the North End as well. I didn't find this one, someone sent it to me.
To me, both are weak when talking solid image matches.
mysteriousnesss
Is there any consensus on what the best match to that section of the dress is? I know people have mentioned the Kelleher Rose Garden gate, the gate on the Somerset Hotel, and I recently posted the sign in front of the restaurant on Richmond Street. I just think that if a perfect match for something that intricate did exist in Boston someone would've found it by now.
BINGO
No consensus. No universallly accepted ideas. Just a bunch of theories that have no solid ending.
mysteriousnesss
My biggest problem with this image/verse pair is that I can never seem to find an appropriate Italian connection to any of the proposed sites. I like the idea of it being in the North End but there really isn't anywhere that would fit and provide a decent spot to bury a casque. There's Columbus High School, Columbus Waterfront Park, various playgrounds, but none of them seem to work. In addition, I struggle to find a way other than direct T stops on the Green Line that would lead someone from the BPL to the North End. I like the Fens as well and I can think of several interpretations of the first four lines that would lead you there. Whether we're talking city blocks or train/bus stops it seems easy enough to end up in the Fenway area. However, if the casque is located there then what is the Italian connection? The same goes for the 2C's (CG really) area. You can end up there but what Italian connection can you really make of it? In both cases you're somewhat close to the Columbus area of Boston but that doesn't seem right. In the case of the Fens you're relatively close to the Elizabeth Stewart Gardner Museum which is modeled after an Venetian palazzo but not close enough when you compare it to the two solved puzzles and several that the park has been narrowed down to (Fountain of Youth, Roanoke, Grant Park, Greek Cultural Gardens). Then you have places like Columbus Park (Moakley Park). Great spot, all the lettered streets, ocean view but then where are the image matches, how did you end up there, and where are the stairs?
BINGO
All fair things to question.
I'll share a popular item that I question regularly. It also seems to be the closest thing to a universal belief for image 11/verse 3.
START AT THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.
Why? What image matches are there? What directs you to start there? What directions do you get once you are there? The easy answer is NONE, NOTHING, NADA.
The most popular explanation is that Thucydides' and Xenophon's names are on the wall and the building itself is of Italian design. Is this really enough?
Another thing to consider... The Cultural Gardens in Cleveland have Apelles, Pindar, Socrates, Thucydides and Xenophon carved into the surrounding walls. The Cleveland verse calls out the names Apelles, Pindar and Socrates. When the topic is brought up about T&X being on the walls there, it is dismissed as merely coincidence.
When the same discussion is had about the Boston Public Library, which also has all 5 of those Greeks, it is considered hard and convincing evidence. Using this thought process, if Cleveland had never been found, people could be searching at the BPL using two different verses. Solely based on 5 famous Greek names printed on a building wall.
Please, give me something solid. I'd love to hear it. People will wag their finger and say that this puzzle and the others don't work like Cleveland and Chicago, there is more to them. What they never say is HOW they are different. How DO they work? It is lazy to just make broad statements and never follow through with solid reasoning or examples.
End of report.
Choice
The main difference is the existence of celestial bodies i.e. moons and star. These are celestial maps per Freemasons’ technique of laying out their structures on the ground according to the position of stars; “as above, so below.”
If T is “North” of X: The word “if” implies assumption meaning T is not really north of X but lets just assume it is.
North Star’s position relative to the moon in the image 11, in two-dimension is not north but north east.
The bright North Star is the lit lantern at Old North Church. To the south west, using the celestial map we find the Trinity Church. T and X both symbolize cross/church.
BINGO
The two words that are used the most when proposing a weak idea.
Assume and symbolize.
Choice
I'm not assuming anything. I was defining IF for you.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
The two words that are used the most when proposing a weak idea.
Solve & Solution.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
Solve & Solution.
I stand corrected.
BINGO
Choice wrote::
I'm not assuming anything. I was defining IF for you.
Well done. The whole puzzle and how it works is clear now. Thank you so much.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Solve & Solution.
While a solve can be weak, strong, or anywhere in between depending on a myriad of factors, most of which we still don't fully understand, "solution" and "weak idea" are polar opposites.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
While a solve can be weak, strong, or anywhere in between depending on a myriad of factors, most of which we still don't fully understand, "solution" and "weak idea" are polar opposites.
Yes you are exactly correct, which explains the irony when they are so often used in conjunction.
mysteriousnesss
Off topic, but does anyone have pictures of all of the frames with names going around BPL? I can see some of them with street view but not all of them. I probably won't make it into the city for another few weeks but I was just curious if anyone had taken pictures of all of them before.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
which explains the irony when they are so often used in conjunction.
I think we can blame BP in part for that. In the book he talks about determining the location, but never specifies exactly what that entails (besides the obvious). So that's what most people are still doing today, even though he is no longer around to confirm that their solve is, in fact, the solution.
Choice
By mirroring the silversmithed area you can see a large S on top of large L in cursive writing.
The leaf at the tip of the "S" looks kinda like a swan head.
Swan Lake?
I colorized the rest of the contiguous lines.
Note the directional arrow on top of the red line.
strike13
Choice wrote::
By mirroring the silversmithed area you can see a large S on top of large L in cursive writing.
The leaf at the tip of the "S" looks kinda like a swan head.
Swan Lake?
I colorized the rest of the contiguous lines.
Note the directional arrow on top of the red line.
huh?
Cristov9000
BINGO wrote::
All fair things to question.
I'll share a popular item that I question regularly. It also seems to be the closest thing to a universal belief for image 11/verse 3.
START AT THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.
Why? What image matches are there? What directs you to start there? What directions do you get once you are there? The easy answer is NONE, NOTHING, NADA.
The most popular explanation is that Thucydides' and Xenophon's names are on the wall and the building itself is of Italian design. Is this really enough?
Another thing to consider... The Cultural Gardens in Cleveland have Apelles, Pindar, Socrates, Thucydides and Xenophon carved into the surrounding walls. The Cleveland verse calls out the names Apelles, Pindar and Socrates. When the topic is brought up about T&X being on the walls there, it is dismissed as merely coincidence.
When the same discussion is had about the Boston Public Library, which also has all 5 of those Greeks, it is considered hard and convincing evidence. Using this thought process, if Cleveland had never been found, people could be searching at the BPL using two different verses. Solely based on 5 famous Greek names printed on a building wall.
Please, give me something solid. I'd love to hear it. People will wag their finger and say that this puzzle and the others don't work like Cleveland and Chicago, there is more to them. What they never say is HOW they are different. How DO they work? It is lazy to just make broad statements and never follow through with solid reasoning or examples.
End of report.
There Are a few reasons to start at the BPL.
1) T&X are inscribed on it and those names don't appear anywhere else in Boston and also point to the Walpole letter that gets you to Boston.
2) Its the only thing in the image or verse that has a 100% solid connection to an actual landmark in Boston that existed in the early 80's
3) The first green orb in the center of the image over the floating table is almost an exact match for the Science statute in front of the BPL.
4) The fairy looks very similar to a painting done by Copley. Copley square is where the BPL is located as well Copley station is the closest T stop to the BPL and there are potentially more references leading there.
strike13
Cristov9000 wrote::
There Are a few reasons to start at the BPL.
1) T&X are inscribed on it and those names don't appear anywhere else in Boston and also point to the Walpole letter that gets you to Boston.
2) Its the only thing in the image or verse that has a 100% solid connection to an actual landmark in Boston that existed in the early 80's
3) The first green orb in the center of the image over the floating table is almost an exact match for the Science statute in front of the BPL.
4) The fairy looks very similar to a painting done by Copley. Copley square is where the BPL is located as well Copley station is the closest T stop to the BPL and there are potentially more references leading there.
In my opinion, the fairy actually has similarities to TWO Copley paintings. One of them being his rendition of Revere.
BINGO
Cristov9000 wrote::
There Are a few reasons to start at the BPL.
1) T&X are inscribed on it and those names don't appear anywhere else in Boston and also point to the Walpole letter that gets you to Boston.
If the Walpole quote truly is pointing to Boston, the names on the BPL are no longer necessary. Walpole already got you to the correct city by using T and X in the quote. Let me guess, multiple uses for the verse line is reinforcement.
2) Its the only thing in the image or verse that has a 100% solid connection to an actual landmark in Boston that existed in the early 80's
Wow! The only solid evidence you can find from the early 1980’s is those names on the wall? Paul Revere and Longfellow are turning in their graves right now.
3) The first green orb in the center of the image over the floating table is almost an exact match for the Science statute in front of the BPL.
There are orbs of every color all over the city. They are literally everywhere. If you are from this area, you need to open your eyes and look around more. If you are from elsewhere, pay us a visit and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
4) The fairy looks very similar to a painting done by Copley. Copley square is where the BPL is located as well Copley station is the closest T stop to the BPL and there are potentially more references leading there.
Copley actually lived at 42 Beacon St. It is directly across the street from the biggest park in the city. Ever see the number 42 anywhere in the painting? The (5) T stops, bus stops, named streets, foot bridges theories are shit. Plain and simple. (My personal opinion, of course.)
I know the BPL and Copley Square lovers disagree with my assessments and I’m ok with that. My only question is where are the
clear and convincing
instructions in the verse or image that instruct you to and from the BPL?
Cristov9000
BINGO wrote::
1) I don't disagree that the line shouldn't be used twice. I don't love it, but its the best interpretation I have heard and there are other confirmers at the BPL.
2)I agree that the poem is the Revere midnight ride poem by Longfellow but what does that get you other than Boston? Revere's ride started in Charlestown and then left the city so not there. Revere's house is in the north end but then what? 42 Beacon is across from the common but its a huge park, where do you go from there? Matching random things doesn't move you anywhere or point to a dig site.
3) The orb held by Science was greenish blue and similarly textured when is was corroded. Its a way better match than any glass or stone orb in the city I have seen and with it being held over the marble side of the chair just like in the picture its a very good match.
4) The solved pictures so far had a a city/state identifier, a place to start and then directions to the dig spot. So you have to start somewhere and move. The only real directions to move are the 5 steps in the area of his direction. 5 steps doesn't get you far. There is no place to dig within 5 steps of BPL, Revere's house, 42 Beacon, etc. You'd be in the middle of the road or on a sidewalk. So imho 5 steps can't be literal. I personally like 5 stops on the green line since going toward the "north" end (area of T's direction being the north end) gets you to Haymarket, the closest stop to the north end (Italian area in Boston). Going 5 stops the other direction (Walpole was talking about West and the area west is outbound) gets you to the BU Castle near the esplanade which sorta matches the castle on the box. It also ties in well with "all the letters are here to see" since Copley station if the first/last stop on the green line where the B, C, D, and E trains all stop. The lines at the top of the picture look like cantenary wires in the top of the green line tunnel, etc..
I'm open to other interpretations but I haven't heard anything better yet.
GoldenMartyr
strike13 wrote::
huh?
I actually have a decent version of this somewhere if anybody wants it...broken out in layers and combined.
BINGO
Cristov9000 wrote::
1) I don't disagree that the line shouldn't be used twice. I don't love it, but its the best interpretation I have heard and there are other confirmers at the BPL.
2)I agree that the poem is the Revere midnight ride poem by Longfellow but what does that get you other than Boston? Revere's ride started in Charlestown and then left the city so not there. Revere's house is in the north end but then what? 42 Beacon is across from the common but its a huge park, where do you go from there? Matching random things doesn't move you anywhere or point to a dig site.
3) The orb held by Science was greenish blue and similarly textured when is was corroded. Its a way better match than any glass or stone orb in the city I have seen and with it being held over the marble side of the chair just like in the picture its a very good match.
4) The solved pictures so far had a a city/state identifier, a place to start and then directions to the dig spot. So you have to start somewhere and move. The only real directions to move are the 5 steps in the area of his direction. 5 steps doesn't get you far. There is no place to dig within 5 steps of BPL, Revere's house, 42 Beacon, etc. You'd be in the middle of the road or on a sidewalk. So imho 5 steps can't be literal. I personally like 5 stops on the green line since going toward the "north" end (area of T's direction being the north end) gets you to Haymarket, the closest stop to the north end (Italian area in Boston). Going 5 stops the other direction (Walpole was talking about West and the area west is outbound) gets you to the BU Castle near the esplanade which sorta matches the castle on the box. It also ties in well with "all the letters are here to see" since Copley station if the first/last stop on the green line where the B, C, D, and E trains all stop. The lines at the top of the picture look like cantenary wires in the top of the green line tunnel, etc..
I'm open to other interpretations but I haven't heard anything better yet.
Where do most people start in Milwaukee? They normally begin at City Hall (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Chicago? They normally begin at the Water Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Cleveland? They normally begin at the Terminal Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Gardens.
Where do most people start in San Francisco? They normally begin at GGP (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to every possible location in California.
Where do most (crazy) people start in Boston? They normally begin at the BPL (the place that has 2 names that appear in the verse) and then make their way to a subway train to get as far away as possible. Why do people who are convinced that the Columbus Statue and the Kelleher Rose Garden are such good image matches for Boston never actually start at those places?
Why do a lot of people think that Priess would never bury a casque in a park that you have to pay admission to enter? BUT, those same people are perfectly fine with paying fare to get on a subway train just so they can cover a healthy distance to somewhere different. It just doesn't make sense.
Bottom line, if you start at the BPL, you have to molest the verse way too much in order to get a real direction or distance to travel. In fact, most people have a place in mind that they want to end up and that is how the ball starts rolling. T-stops, bus stops, named streets (unnamed alleys mess up the 5 count), all crap invented by people that have an agenda and are trying too hard to justify the route. Just skip the BPL and go directly to your place of interest, probe, dig, refine, report, repeat.
strike13
[/quote]
Where do most people start in Milwaukee? They normally begin at City Hall (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Chicago? They normally begin at the Water Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Cleveland? They normally begin at the Terminal Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Gardens.
Where do most people start in San Francisco? They normally begin at GGP (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to every possible location in California.
Where do most (crazy) people start in Boston? They normally begin at the BPL (the place that has 2 names that appear in the verse) and then make their way to a subway train to get as far away as possible. Why do people who are convinced that the Columbus Statue and the Kelleher Rose Garden are such good image matches for Boston never actually start at those places?
Why do a lot of people think that Priess would never bury a casque in a park that you have to pay admission to enter? BUT, those same people are perfectly fine with paying fare to get on a subway train just so they can cover a healthy distance to somewhere different. It just doesn't make sense.
Bottom line, if you start at the BPL, you have to molest the verse way too much in order to get a real direction or distance to travel. In fact, most people have a place in mind that they want to end up and that is how the ball starts rolling. T-stops, bus stops, named streets (unnamed alleys mess up the 5 count), all crap invented by people that have an agenda and are trying too hard to justify the route. Just skip the BPL and go directly to your place of interest, probe, dig, refine, report, repeat.[/quote]
10000%
Cristov9000
BINGO wrote::
Where do most people start in Milwaukee? They normally begin at City Hall (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Chicago? They normally begin at the Water Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Park.
Where do most people start in Cleveland? They normally begin at the Terminal Tower (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to the Gardens.
Where do most people start in San Francisco? They normally begin at GGP (the universally accepted image match) and then make their way to every possible location in California.
Where do most (crazy) people start in Boston? They normally begin at the BPL (the place that has 2 names that appear in the verse) and then make their way to a subway train to get as far away as possible. Why do people who are convinced that the Columbus Statue and the Kelleher Rose Garden are such good image matches for Boston never actually start at those places?
Why do a lot of people think that Priess would never bury a casque in a park that you have to pay admission to enter? BUT, those same people are perfectly fine with paying fare to get on a subway train just so they can cover a healthy distance to somewhere different. It just doesn't make sense.
Bottom line, if you start at the BPL, you have to molest the verse way too much in order to get a real direction or distance to travel. In fact, most people have a place in mind that they want to end up and that is how the ball starts rolling. T-stops, bus stops, named streets (unnamed alleys mess up the 5 count), all crap invented by people that have an agenda and are trying too hard to justify the route. Just skip the BPL and go directly to your place of interest, probe, dig, refine, report, repeat.
The Columbus statue isn't a match for anything and I have no idea where that came from in the first place, there isn't even a passing resemblance in person. The Rose garden is also a match I don't like. I don't see why see why starting at the water tower in Chicago or the Terminal Tower in Cleveland and then trekking across the city on foot following directions is fine by taking another form of transport isn't. Boston streets are not conducive to moving from one part of the city to another with easy directions and I am sure BP would have appreciated that. I agree there a lot of terrible theories where people pick an end point they want to get to and then force a theory on how to get from the BPL to there. I agree that isn't the way to do it but that's not what I am advocating. If you have a better starting point I am all ears but starting at the BPL is the only place I have been able to navigate myself, following the verse, to a green space that would be digable. This particular verse is very short on instructions and directions. If you dont think 5 steps are 5 streets or 5 stops or whatever then what are they? I dont think equating steps to stops is a crazy molestation of the verse. if you had a starting point and walked 5 actual steps then the actual dig spot must be essentially right at the starting location and that isn't really possible without digging up gardens.
BINGO
Who says the 5 steps are instructions from the starting point?
I personally feel they are more likely to be instructions near the dig site. What can’t they actually be 5 steps or 5 stairs? Seems like a more logical scenario to me.
Here is an example from a past theory that I got sucked into.
I was standing in the Prado in front of Revere’s statue. There were granite stairs behind me, a water fountain in front of me and a giant statue of Paul pointing almost behind himself.
I thought of “take five steps in the area of his direction”. Paul was pointing (giving us direction). The tree planter in line with his hand was 5 steps away.
I’m not saying that is the solution, I’m just describing a general interpretation of what I think is far more logical explanation. Again, I’m not advocating the Prado is the location, but experiencing that moment made me rethink how the puzzle should be viewed. Once you have a similar realization, the BPL and the myriad of other wiki biased opinions become less attractive.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Who says the 5 steps are instructions from the starting point?
Only people who don't really understand how the verses work IMO. I'll grant you that Chicago is mostly linear (albeit circular) but Cleveland clearly is not. And if you follow Milwaukee in a linear fashion, I guarantee that you will end up in the one place the casque is not, as 421 outlined in this post over a year ago (
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=773&start=585
). The same is true in Roanoke, although people still insist on tearing up the overlook to the point that the park service has had to post signs and install cameras. The point is that "5 steps" could apply to something at the beginning, the end, or anywhere in between, and this would be consistent with at least some of the other verses, including one of the two solved puzzles.
GabbySand2
The water tower in Chicago is just one visual match. Why start there? Why would you not start at the sculpture at the entrance of Grant Park, which is also a visual match? I think the Greek centaur leads you to the Greek Cultural Garden more so than the terminus. I think you need to figure out the overall idea of where to look once the city has been determined by the image. IMO, you need to find a tie-in to the immigration theme of each puzzle. in Chicago, for example, it was Grant Park. Grant was the first US President to ever travel to Ireland, home to Grant’s ancestors. In Boston, it’s Italians. A park in Little Italy, or one named after a prominent Italian figure, etc would make more sense. In Charleston, I would think you would look to a park, street or area that pays tribute to African Americans. Some of the cities are more difficult, like St Augustine, where nearly everything has Spanish roots. I do think this approach, if I can prove it, could help narrow down areas in Montreal, Houston and possibly San Francisco.
erexere
It's important to know the risk of making a wrong assumption at any point in the puzzle. Identifying a visual "match" has ranged from being very loosely approximate in its shape from things that just look similar to things that might only be generic, to things which look spot on perfect and might also be more on the unique side of things. Then there's the whole judgment call on whether that visual link has the purpose of putting a viewer in a physical place, like standing on a street corner in front of that visual, or whether it has a more creative use, suggesting the name of something, like a rebus, the name of a state, an historic event, etc.
I'm still looking at the LotJ for guidance on how to proceed with the puzzle. The peridot of Old Italy is olivine, antique, and rich. I wonder if we're suppose to form some understanding based on looking for something comparatively like an olive tree, or something ancient, or to do with wealth. A type of oil is produced from olives, though it's not the same as the petroleum from which gas fuels are typically derived. Old type pre-electric era lighting was fueled by gas. Perhaps the green tower of lights line in the verse is a some kind of link to gas. I'd always assumed it was talking about an electric light tower, but if I try to take the perspective of a Fair Folk, we might be thinking of something tall and towering, bearing the "fruit" like that of an olive tree, which produces gas. Could that then equate with the Citgo sign? Whoa, sounds like a risky line of thinking, since that sign has been reported to be seen from anywhere around the city...
Choice
Top of image 11 is similar to top of the alcove Channing's Statue is at:
hxxp://g.tinyurl.com/yxzl2233
hxxp://g.tinyurl.com/yxrdozzd
Cristov9000
BINGO wrote::
Who says the 5 steps are instructions from the starting point?
I personally feel they are more likely to be instructions near the dig site. What can’t they actually be 5 steps or 5 stairs? Seems like a more logical scenario to me.
Here is an example from a past theory that I got sucked into.
I was standing in the Prado in front of Revere’s statue. There were granite stairs behind me, a water fountain in front of me and a giant statue of Paul pointing almost behind himself.
I thought of “take five steps in the area of his direction”. Paul was pointing (giving us direction). The tree planter in line with his hand was 5 steps away.
I’m not saying that is the solution, I’m just describing a general interpretation of what I think is far more logical explanation. Again, I’m not advocating the Prado is the location, but experiencing that moment made me rethink how the puzzle should be viewed. Once you have a similar realization, the BPL and the myriad of other wiki biased opinions become less attractive.
Are the steps you are talking about the ones next to the Old North Church? I've arrived at the same spot, ironically from starting at the BPL, though I think in a different planter...
strike13
Cristov9000 wrote::
Are the steps you are talking about the ones next to the Old North Church? I've arrived at the same spot, ironically from starting at the BPL, though I think in a different planter...
No, in the Prado
strike13
.[/quote]
No, in the Prado[/quote]
Sorry, "Paul Revere Mall" to you non locals. There is no "prado" on googlemaps
Choice
Flower beds are excluded in the book. However raised planters maybe fair game.
https://tinyurl.com/yy3n6ddm
strike13
Choice wrote::
Flower beds are excluded in the book. However raised planters maybe fair game.
https://tinyurl.com/yy3n6ddm
How did we move from the Prado to the ONC courtyard? They are different entities you know.
Choice
Cristov mentioned steps at ONC. But if we're looking for random 5 steps this is a nice one:
https://tinyurl.com/y5n85rjq
Cristov9000
strike13 wrote::
How did we move from the Prado to the ONC courtyard? They are different entities you know.
ONC is across the street and there is a particular planter that is mostly dirt where you can have you back to the stairs, facing water, the statue of paul revere on horseback is is sight and the planter is lit by gas lamp. I can't confirm what it looked like in the 80's though.
strike13
Cristov9000 wrote::
ONC is across the street and there is a particular planter that is mostly dirt where you can have you back to the stairs, facing water, the statue of paul revere on horseback is is sight and the planter is lit by gas lamp. I can't confirm what it looked like in the 80's though.
yeah i dont really like the ONC courtyard for this. but it is one of the places i would able to dig without a question or permit, as i am close w the caretaker
dosethree
Choice wrote::
Cristov mentioned steps at ONC. But if we're looking for random 5 steps this is a nice one:
https://tinyurl.com/y5n85rjq
Whenever I do any hunting in Boston I look to see if there are 5 steps. So far they are pretty rare, we should put some effort into collecting a list of them maybe? In Cleveland, there were 7 "steps" was right at the dig site.
Also the verse references both steps and stairs, and there aren't as many places with both (a short set of 5 steps, and a separate stairs) if they are different things. Edit: or they could be referring to 5 steps in a single stair case, which seems equally likely
treetopshot
From looking at this - there is a lot of over thinking. He wanted it solved at some point. To me the location is Disneyland. The circle is Mickey mouses head and the shadow around the neck is the roller coaster at California adventures. The woman is Liz Taylor. The globes is from tomorrow land. And the other globoare standard light fixtures. The only thing missing is which verse matches with it?
strike13
treetopshot wrote::
From looking at this - there is a lot of over thinking. He wanted it solved at some point. To me the location is Disneyland. The circle is Mickey mouses head and the shadow around the neck is the roller coaster at California adventures. The woman is Liz Taylor. The globes is from tomorrow land. And the other globoare standard light fixtures. The only thing missing is which verse matches with it?
Josh?
Choice
Liz Taylor? Oh hell no! The girl in the image has dark complexion. How about the Bostonian Donna Summer?
treetopshot
Here is a pic of Liz Taylor. If you research her, Disneyland land was her favourite place to go. It says Liz right next to the picture
hxxp://www.arogundade.com/elizabeth-tay ... -eyes.html
. Take good look please before judging
treetopshot
The star in the middle of the circle is the middle piece of the Farris wheel. The fairy is tinker bell.
maltedfalcon
treetopshot wrote::
the shadow around the neck is the roller coaster at California adventures.
?????
The park opened on February 8, 2001 as Disney's California Adventure Park or Disney's California Adventure
strike13
treetopshot wrote::
Here is a pic of Liz Taylor. If you research her, Disneyland land was her favourite place to go. It says Liz right next to the picture
hxxp://www.arogundade.com/elizabeth-tay ... -eyes.html
. Take good look please before judging
your introductory comment on this thread was all we needed in terms of judging.
BINGO
Credit where it is due.
The lady in the image looks more like Elizabeth Taylor than Christopher Columbus.
Also, on page 117 in the book, Liz is shown on the bottom-center in the April, 27 1982 US Magazine Best and Worst Dressed People edition.
That's all the credit I have to give on this theory.
treetopshot
The globe in the round bracket is part of the Astro Orbitor.
maltedfalcon
treetopshot wrote::
The globe in the round bracket is part of the Astro Orbitor.
because as a publisher- he wouldn't have any idea how litigious Disney is, so he would have no problem using Disney's intellectual property without permission in a non-disney publication.
elizabethmcfarland
attached is a link to an alternate solution for the Cask in Boston.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13DyuUf ... sp=sharing
SteveMarg
My goal has always been the SF casque, and I’m getting close. But to understand the SF painting, I have been looking at the Boston and NY paintings. I have never posted a theory, but after some research on Boston, I am actually going to post a Boston casque location theory. If you’re interested, you can download it here:
hxxp://stevemargolis.com/…/uploads/2019/05/Boston-casque.pdf
It’s just a 5-page PDF, mostly pictures, but it’s a solid theory.
BINGO
SteveMarg wrote::
My goal has always been the SF casque, and I’m getting close. But to understand the SF painting, I have been looking at the Boston and NY paintings. I have never posted a theory, but after some research on Boston, I am actually going to post a Boston casque location theory. If you’re interested, you can download it here:
hxxp://stevemargolis.com/
…/uploads/2019/05/Boston-casque.pdf
It’s just a 5-page PDF, mostly pictures, but it’s a solid theory.
BAD LINK 404
Choice
He uploaded on Wiki. Here's the link:
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/fet ... asque1.pdf
Yay 1000 posts!
Going for 10,000!
Today... today... today... I consider myself... myself... myself... the luckiest one on the face of the earth... earth... earth...
mysteriousnesss
What're you referring to as stairs? This seems really incomplete at best. Also, what's the Italian connection?
strike13
mysteriousnesss wrote::
What're you referring to as stairs? This seems really incomplete at best. Also, what's the Italian connection?
his/her Italian connection is the designer of the wwii memorial
strike13
strike13 wrote::
his/her Italian connection is the designer of the wwii memorial
ooops. accidental and unrelated answer. not sure why i cant delete my previous comment.
Choice
Since we are doing book clues, here's one:
On page 12 there's a keyhole looking thing on top of the tower (purple circle) and cover of the book in gold outline.
Note the direction of fairy's eyes.
May have something to do with the keyholes on top of the Castle tower with staggered windows.
Or like a gun's cross-hair pointing in that direction, Trinity Church?
https://tinyurl.com/y2msghtn
JamesV
This is a link to a 1976 National Park Service brochure that shows the Boston National Historical Park:
hxxp://npshistory.com/brochures/bost/1976.pdf
. It's got a decent street map, as well as a set-in map of the MBTA stops.
This weekend I was kicking around some thoughts using Image 11 & Verse 3... In case it helps anyone, I was working my way across the Charlestowne Bridge past the old Boston Garden (the "coliseum") and near the USS Constitution ("metal walls"). On the other side of the river it looks like there's a Paul Revere park... which of course, wasn't opened until the 1990s.
I'd love to find some period photos of this area, though... curious if there might have been any stairs located by nearby Water Street?
BINGO
JamesV wrote::
This is a link to a 1976 National Park Service brochure that shows the Boston National Historical Park:
hxxp://npshistory.com/brochures/bost/1976.pdf
. It's got a decent street map, as well as a set-in map of the MBTA stops.
This weekend I was kicking around some thoughts using Image 11 & Verse 3... In case it helps anyone, I was working my way across the Charlestowne Bridge past the old Boston Garden (the "coliseum") and near the USS Constitution ("metal walls"). On the other side of the river it looks like there's a Paul Revere park... which of course, wasn't opened until the 1990s.
I'd love to find some period photos of this area, though... curious if there might have been any stairs located by nearby Water Street?
Be careful in that area, it will suck you in. There are stairs and street lamps in that area that look almost too perfect. Until you burrow deep enough to find that most of them are a byproduct of the big dig "improvements". It's a rich area nonetheless.
bolddigger
Hi everyone,
Has anyone in Boston found a good contact person, number or process for obtaining a permit to dig? I tried the online permit portal for the Department of Recreation and Conservation and they don't have an option that fits. I've also tried calling the DRC office and so far the person directory assistance transferred us to hasn't answered their phone and their voice mail box is full.
I'd be glad to get a COI, etc. and I've already visited the proposed dig spot. Just need the permit to take the next step.
Thanks in advance for any help. I know this is the most frustrating part of the process for most of us and appreciate the info.
BINGO
bolddigger wrote::
Hi everyone,
Has anyone in Boston found a good contact person, number or process for obtaining a permit to dig? I tried the online permit portal for the Department of Recreation and Conservation and they don't have an option that fits. I've also tried calling the DRC office and so far the person directory assistance transferred us to hasn't answered their phone and their voice mail box is full.
I'd be glad to get a COI, etc. and I've already visited the proposed dig spot. Just need the permit to take the next step.
Thanks in advance for any help. I know this is the most frustrating part of the process for most of us and appreciate the info.
The process isn’t as bad as people like complain about. What matters the most is to determine which agency pulls the strings for the area you are looking to dig. Calling DCR for an area that is governed by DPW is a waste of time. And vice versa.
Call the proper department religiously until you get a human on the phone. Mondays and Fridays or any day after a playoff game (we have a lot of those here in title town...) is probably a wasted effort.
Don’t be all secretive and overconfident. You won’t be the first or last person to call with absolute knowledge of the casque’s location. Give them actual evidence like an image match or a new exciting clue and give them the details at the location. Your implied brilliance will not impress them, nor will it help your cause. If they want an altered rendition of the wiki solution, they have access to google as well.
The best advice that I can give you is to be patient, polite, open, honest and if you have the ability to solve a 37 year old puzzle, you should be able to figure which department governs the area you are trying to search.
Best of Luck.
strike13
bolddigger wrote::
Hi everyone,
Has anyone in Boston found a good contact person, number or process for obtaining a permit to dig? I tried the online permit portal for the Department of Recreation and Conservation and they don't have an option that fits. I've also tried calling the DRC office and so far the person directory assistance transferred us to hasn't answered their phone and their voice mail box is full.
I'd be glad to get a COI, etc. and I've already visited the proposed dig spot. Just need the permit to take the next step.
Thanks in advance for any help. I know this is the most frustrating part of the process for most of us and appreciate the info.
Go get it then you Bolddigger...otherwise change your handle
bolddigger
Unknown:
Go get it then you Bolddigger...otherwise change your handle
I'm making a 100% effort to get authorization, but it may be impossible. I've been sitting on my solution for months, and after visiting the spot a few times I'm like (theoretically, of course), "How much will the ticket cost, and how likely is it they will arrest the person who digs here?" Maddening to think the choice facing some hunters is to let treasure lie or face prosecution. Even Preiss didn't get away with burying these without police questioning him. I'm a law-abiding person and always have been, but...
maltedfalcon
bolddigger wrote::
I'm making a 100% effort to get authorization, but it may be impossible. I've been sitting on my solution for months, and after visiting the spot a few times I'm like (theoretically, of course), "How much will the ticket cost, and how likely is it they will arrest the person who digs here?" Maddening to think the choice facing some hunters is to let treasure lie or face prosecution. Even Preiss didn't get away with burying these without police questioning him. I'm a law-abiding person and always have been, but...
probe it first and use a boroscope.
rtsbeacon
Has anyone here ever received permission to dig in Boston?
BINGO
rtsbeacon wrote::
Has anyone here ever received permission to dig in Boston?
Yes. I know of 3 separate members on this forum that have received permission to dig in Boston.
1 is a silent member who always reads and never posts. 1 has gone basically silent since his dig attempt just a few weeks ago, and the last person just created this reply.
BINGO
strike13 wrote::
Go get it then you Bolddigger...otherwise change your handle
The “I can’t get permission and I’m not interested in sharing with people who can” story is getting a bit old.
Maybe he should just go by the handle TH?
bolddigger
The "can't get permission" thing isn't an angle-- it's a reality. Not for lack of trying, either. That's why I asked if anyone knew of an amenable local bureaucrat who had actually issued a permit recently.
If anyone who has a magic bullet cares to share their success story in getting permission to dig, great. I'd appreciate it and act on it immediately. Otherwise it's a really unfair and baseless assumption that permits are possible to obtain and some of us are just not doing it right.
I'd venture to guess more than one person has solved these puzzles and given up because they simply cannot get a permit. I'm not giving up, but I'm weighing my options really carefully.
PS I'm a woman.
Hirudiniforme
bolddigger wrote::
PS I'm a woman.
Than you must make a decision...
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Than you must make a decision...
out of line, uncalled for and very very tacky
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
out of line, uncalled for and very very tacky
Umm... what do you think the implication was when adding that she was a woman? The OP specifically made sex a thing. Sheesh.
BINGO
bolddigger wrote::
The "can't get permission" thing isn't an angle-- it's a reality. Not for lack of trying, either. That's why I asked if anyone knew of an amenable local bureaucrat who had actually issued a permit recently.
If anyone who has a magic bullet cares to share their success story in getting permission to dig, great. I'd appreciate it and act on it immediately. Otherwise it's a really unfair and baseless assumption that permits are possible to obtain and some of us are just not doing it right.
I'd venture to guess more than one person has solved these puzzles and given up because they simply cannot get a permit. I'm not giving up, but I'm weighing my options really carefully.
PS I'm a woman.
You have shared nothing other than you think you have “solved” Boston. Yet, you expect people here to cater to your requests without question. How about just a vague location description? Location and permission go hand in hand when dealing with Boston officials and permit/permissions. Are you looking in a park, a curbed island in the middle of the street, a cemetery, near a monument, Paul Revere’s basement? This matters. Asking the correct department matters.
The thought that permits to dig in Boston are impossible is completely preposterous. I work for one of the biggest excavation contractors in the city. Someone forgot to send us that memo. Should I be looking for another job?
PS I don’t care if you are a woman. Some of the best people in this forum are women. You are not alone.
Hirudiniforme
BINGO wrote::
PS I don’t care if you are a woman. Some of the best people in this forum are women. You are not alone.
https://youtu.be/pAyKJAtDNCw?t=57
Choice
tedious, yet car-crash entertaining. But I'm almost running out of popcorn.
strike13
bolddigger wrote::
The "can't get permission" thing isn't an angle-- it's a reality. Not for lack of trying, either. That's why I asked if anyone knew of an amenable local bureaucrat who had actually issued a permit recently.
If anyone who has a magic bullet cares to share their success story in getting permission to dig, great. I'd appreciate it and act on it immediately. Otherwise it's a really unfair and baseless assumption that permits are possible to obtain and some of us are just not doing it right.
I'd venture to guess more than one person has solved these puzzles and given up because they simply cannot get a permit. I'm not giving up, but I'm weighing my options really carefully.
PS I'm a woman.
It is an angle. You aren't a woman. Your name is Tony Haines
UnprovenFact
strike13 wrote::
It is an angle. You aren't a woman. Your name is Tony Haines
Yeah! And there is noooo way "Tony" is a girl's name. Take that!!... Stick to gender-appropriate names, people... like Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Wait, what?
--Any chance we could all get back to finding treasure? I'll be over in Verse 5 = Boston if you need me.
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Umm... what do you think the implication was when adding that she was a woman? The OP specifically made sex a thing. Sheesh.
I think that was a reasonable response to Bingo's previous comment "Maybe
he
should just go by the handle TH?"
I don't think it was out of line or "a sex thing"
but your over the top reaction was.
maltedfalcon
This also kind of casts light on someone's behavior
Just curious what kind of stalking behavior lets you know a person's initials and full name
and then gives you the right to throw it out there.
as nettiquette goes that's pretty low.
strike13
maltedfalcon wrote::
This also kind of casts light on Bingo's behavior
Just curious what kind of stalking behavior lets you know a person's initials and full name
and then gives you the right to throw it out there.
as nettiquette goes that's pretty low.
Why don't you put the blame where it belongs? I threw his or her name out there. I do not feel I was being low. Just tired of all the permission seeking whining. It is called the Secret, not the constantly trying to seek permission treasure hunt. Also, I am a woman, so bring it 421!
strike13
strike13 wrote::
Why don't you put the blame where it belongs? I threw his or her name out there. I do not feel I was being low. Just tired of all the permission seeking whining. It is called the Secret, not the constantly trying to seek permission treasure hunt. Also, I am a woman, so bring it 421!
I am also super sarcastic, light-hearted, and never meant to piss anyone off. So let's get back to finding this!
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
This also kind of casts light on someone's behavior
Just curious what kind of stalking behavior lets you know a person's initials and full name
and then gives you the right to throw it out there.
as nettiquette goes that's pretty low.
I specifically said “he” and called out the initials “TH” because I have talked to “TH” on multiple occasions through multiple online avenues with “TH” using multiple aliases. The story and MO never changes.
Paraphrased examples of aforementioned MO:
-I have solved Boston.
-permits are impossible in Boston.
-I’ve been sitting on this for months and it torments me.
-does anyone have an inside track on who to talk to for permits?
-I won’t dig without a permit.
-I won’t divulge any information about my solve because others will break the law, dig it up, and take the credit.
-Maybe I will seek advice from a publicist to help with permission and advertising after the casque is recovered.
I have made multiple offers to help”TH” with his permission issues and he simply adopts a new screen name and moves on to another Secret related group to make the same statements and ask the same questions. So, my apologies go to Bolddigger if “she” isn’t “TH”.
If trying to actually help someone who asks for help is online stalking, I guess I am guilty as charged.
Hirudiniforme
Saturday is coming...
bolddigger
1.) I don't know who TH is.
2.) I responded when erroneously referred to as a he. I am a woman.
3.) I wonder why the admin doesn't delete this abusive, bizarre and off-topic content and ban the users who post it?
4.) I don't wonder why people don't actually put real information on this board.
If this is the response a new user gets to the simple question," Has anyone gotten a permit to dig for treasure recently and, if so, how did you get it?" then why should anyone bother to share what they've found?
Hirudiniforme
bolddigger wrote::
1.) I ...
strike13
bolddigger wrote::
4.) I don't wonder why people don't actually put real information on this board.
If this is the response a new user gets to the simple question," Has anyone gotten a permit to dig for treasure recently and, if so, how did you get it?" then why should anyone bother to share what they've found?
4) try reading the years of info here.
also...just dig..or probe
BINGO
bolddigger wrote::
If this is the response a new user gets to the simple question," Has anyone gotten a permit to dig for treasure recently and, if so, how did you get it?" then why should anyone bother to share what they've found?
BINGO wrote::
The process isn’t as bad as people like complain about. What matters the most is to determine which agency pulls the strings for the area you are looking to dig. Calling DCR for an area that is governed by DPW is a waste of time. And vice versa.
Call the proper department religiously until you get a human on the phone. Mondays and Fridays or any day after a playoff game (we have a lot of those here in title town...) is probably a wasted effort.
Don’t be all secretive and overconfident. You won’t be the first or last person to call with absolute knowledge of the casque’s location. Give them actual evidence like an image match or a new exciting clue and give them the details at the location. Your implied brilliance will not impress them, nor will it help your cause. If they want an altered rendition of the wiki solution, they have access to google as well.
The best advice that I can give you is to be patient, polite, open, honest and if you have the ability to solve a 37 year old puzzle, you should be able to figure which department governs the area you are trying to search.
Best of Luck.
If you are not TH, then I apologize, again. I made that assumption because you are asking the same questions about the process in Boston and ignoring answers given to you in the same way. If you don’t like my answer, that’s fine, enjoy the permit process.
Here is a pretty straight forward response to your question.
Eastcoast
bolddigger wrote::
1.) I don't know who TH is.
2.) I responded when erroneously referred to as a he. I am a woman.
3.) I wonder why the admin doesn't delete this abusive, bizarre and off-topic content and ban the users who post it?
4.) I don't wonder why people don't actually put real information on this board.
If this is the response a new user gets to the simple question," Has anyone gotten a permit to dig for treasure recently and, if so, how did you get it?" then why should anyone bother to share what they've found?
After reading the most recent bullshit all I can say is the users on this forum are pathetic.
If you were looking for some helpful advice, my best advice is you look somewhere else because anything you take from here is junk. Just a bunch of ass holes digging empty holes
bolddigger
So, I'd just like to make something clear for anyone reading these posts:
You can't get a permit to dig for Secret-related treasure in Boston right now by calling the right department, being honest, knowing who governs the land, etc. They are not giving them out. You will get an unequivocal no from everyone you talk to. Maybe in the past it was easier, but not now. Maybe if you know someone in the local government you may have an easier time of it. But let me assure you, even if you are persistent and have the money for permits, COI, whatever, you will not get a permit to dig anywhere in the city of Boston by the usual channels. Anyone who tells you a different story is misinformed.
And it has nothing to do with the merit of your solution-- they don't even ask or care. It doesn't matter if you have a really solid theory, new evidence, etc..
This is what I was talking about when I asked if anyone had recently gotten a permit, as in 2019 for this treasure hunt.
I'm not giving up by any means-- far from it--but I want anyone who thinks the process is straightforward to know it's not.
Feel free to prove me wrong by giving a straight answer with an actual contact number and a recently approved permit to your credit. I'm listening. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate actual information.
BINGO
bolddigger wrote::
So, I'd just like to make something clear for anyone reading these posts:
You can't get a permit to dig for Secret-related treasure in Boston right now by calling the right department, being honest, knowing who governs the land, etc. They are not giving them out. You will get an unequivocal no from everyone you talk to. Maybe in the past it was easier, but not now. Maybe if you know someone in the local government you may have an easier time of it. But let me assure you, even if you are persistent and have the money for permits, COI, whatever, you will not get a permit to dig anywhere in the city of Boston by the usual channels. Anyone who tells you a different story is misinformed.
And it has nothing to do with the merit of your solution-- they don't even ask or care. It doesn't matter if you have a really solid theory, new evidence, etc..
This is what I was talking about when I asked if anyone had recently gotten a permit, as in 2019 for this treasure hunt.
I'm not giving up by any means-- far from it--but I want anyone who thinks the process is straightforward to know it's not.
Feel free to prove me wrong by giving a straight answer with an actual contact number and a recently approved permit to your credit. I'm listening. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate actual information.
The last permitted dig that I personally witnessed was on April 22, 2019. The digger goes by Lat_ninram here on q4t. He was digging within the Boston streets and his permission came from the Public Works Department. If he feels the desire to share any more details other than that, I will leave that up to him to decide.
The last probing mission that I personally performed with a Park Ranger standing about 10’ away occurred on March 14, 2019 near the Ether Monument in the Public Gardens. That was done for my buddy Choice. People were actually walking by and asking what was going on. The ranger would tell them we are digging up treasure and splitting the proceeds. Contrary to popular belief, there are fun loving officials who enjoy taking part in this hunt.
I have a feeling that your quest for a permit is pointed at the wrong people in the wrong agency. And I will ask this again, why should I or anyone else give you a list of contacts simply because you want them? You haven’t shared a single thing other than you are a woman. Congrats on that.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Just a bunch of ass holes digging empty holes
The fact that you think this is an insult shows just how little you understand about this puzzle. Or the serious posters who frequent this Forum.
erexere
Digging a hole is really not a big deal as long as you cut a nice plug of sod, put 95% of the dirt back, tamp it down well and replace plug with care. The ground should look fine when you're done.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Digging a hole is really not a big deal...
And it remains the only option for testing a solve to see if it is, in fact, a solution. Hence my comment. As I've said many times before, if you are unwilling to dig (or at the very least probe), or find someone willing to do it for you, you are wasting your time on this puzzle.
dosethree
Does anyone have any good ideas about the symbols on the womans stole? If they are maritime flags, my attempts to decode them have not proved fruitful using
https://www.dcode.fr/maritime-signals-code
Also, I can't get help but thinking the shape of the birds tail is significant. It's very distinct. So is the light pattern on the birds body and head. Anyone have any good ideas what they are meant to look like?
Kalessin
dosethree wrote::
Does anyone have any good ideas about the symbols on the womans stole? If they are maritime flags, my attempts to decode them have not proved fruitful using
https://www.dcode.fr/maritime-signals-code
Also, I can't get help but thinking the shape of the birds tail is significant. It's very distinct. So is the light pattern on the birds body and head. Anyone have any good ideas what they are meant to look like?
The triangle symbol on the stole on the woman's left side reminds a lot of people of the very large Citgo sign over Kenmore Square (shown in my user photo).
The best lit symbol on the stole on the woman's right side with an A and an upside-down A that between them form an N is strongly reminiscent of a distinctive pattern of paths just to the west of the Kelleher Rose Garden when viewed from above, as in Google Maps or an aerial photo..
BINGO
Every 5" rock, clay pipe and tile better look out. Bingo has a new toy to play with.
The company that I work for just purchased this from a utility locating company that is going out of business. They are training a few of us to use it starting next week. It sounds like I will have access to it on a fairly regular basis. I'm not interested in checking out random "hunches", but I am willing to help out well thought out theories whenever possible.
**Disclaimer: I spoke to the person who operates this GPR and he is less than enthusiastic about using it to locate a 5"X5" plastic box. It may help, but it will most likely offer more false positive readings than is mentally worthwhile...
Also, if you are "permit challenged" Boston searcher, a permit is not required to use this on public property. (This information is also from the person who is selling and training us to use it. I have not verified that personally, but I belive him at his word.)
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Every 5" rock, clay pipe and tile better look out. Bingo has a new toy to play with.
the pipe finder part *the blue part) would basically be useless in the hunt
what frequency is the GPR part?
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
the pipe finder part *the blue part) would basically be useless in the hunt
what frequency is the GPR part?
No clue yet, I am a total novice. The tutorial begins next week. I’m hoping to learn enough about it to make some productive use of it.
What I do know is we used to hire that company to find underground gas lines, water lines, and electric conduit that dig safe cannot locate for one reason or another. The success rate with them using it is roughly 50%. Some things it locates very accurately and some things it is a waste of time.
Fingers crossed.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
No clue yet, I am a total novice. The tutorial begins next week. I’m hoping to learn enough about it to make some productive use of it.
What I do know is we used to hire that company to find underground gas lines, water lines, and electric conduit that dig safe cannot locate for one reason or another. The success rate with them using it is roughly 50%. Some things it locates very accurately and some things it is a waste of time.
Fingers crossed.
there is a frequency that basically goes down 3 feet
and another that goes a little deeper
and one that goes really deep.... hope you have the 3 feet one!
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
there is a frequency that basically goes down 3 feet
and another that goes a little deeper
and one that goes really deep.... hope you have the 3 feet one!
Most electric and telecom conduits are buried approximately 30" deep by local code. Gas is usually in the same range. Water mains are always 5' or deeper for frost protection. For what you are saying, I'm guessing those depths would require separate units?
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Most electric and telecom conduits are buried approximately 30" deep by local code. Gas is usually in the same range. Water mains are always 5' or deeper for frost protection. For what you are saying, I'm guessing those depths would require separate units?
not an expert but thats how I understand it
other bad thing is it basically shows layers of disturbed soil
an area that is constanly, say rototilled, plowed or dug in would be problematic.
would the casque show up as a easy to identify target? maybe....
gManTexas
It is about to be summer in Boston. High time someone dug up a casque.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
It is about to be summer in Boston. High time someone dug up a casque.
no time like the high time gman! welcome back! this could be the year for it!
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
no time like the high time gman! welcome back! this could be the year for it!
Get busy with a shovel!
BINGO
BINGO wrote::
GPR update!!!
This thing is right next to useless. One could spend a lifetime digging up all of the rocks and other miscellaneous subsurface crap that this thing chronicles.
Other than it being a neat new toy to tinker with, we are probably better off sticking to the basics and solve the puzzles as intended.
maltedfalcon
Bingo you need to recreate a casque
bury it and then see what results you get from that....
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
Bingo you need to recreate a casque
bury it and then see what results you get from that....
Well, I do have a lid to start with...
The fruit of a dig requested by erexere. The initial excitement was equal to the eventual let down.
maltedfalcon
[quote="BINGO"
Well, I do have a lid to start with...
The fruit of a dig requested by erexere. The initial excitement was equal to the eventual let down.
[/quote]
fyi that looks like a side , not a lid , and its way too thin
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
fyi that looks like a side , not a lid , and its way too thin
I have small hands...
It measured just under 5" square and it was 1/8" thick, smaller than the lid in both dimensions. It was a heart stopper when it came out of the hole. It was pretty clear, pretty quickly that it wasn't what we had hoped it was.
davinci4
maltedfalcon wrote::
Bingo you need to recreate a casque
bury it and then see what results you get from that....
Not an expert on GPR, but have some experience with it. With the proper antenna, helpful for ruling out possible dig sites but ‘positive finding’ does not confirm casque/object is necessarily buried in ground either. Knowing the specifics of the GPR antenna is critical in helping to locate an object 3-4 feet underground. I have been told that an 800 MHz antenna can detect objects as small as 2 inches in diameter and penetrate 3-4 feet in depth. Would seem ideal for this hunt assuming worst case scenario and the cask is cracked into pieces.
GoldenMartyr
davinci4 wrote::
Not an expert on GPR, but have some experience with it. With the proper antenna, helpful for ruling out possible dig sites but ‘positive finding’ does not confirm casque/object is necessarily buried in ground either. Knowing the specifics of the GPR antenna is critical in helping to locate an object 3-4 feet underground. I have been told that an 800 MHz antenna can detect objects as small as 2 inches in diameter and penetrate 3-4 feet in depth. Would seem ideal for this hunt assuming worst case scenario and the cask is cracked into pieces.
Is this not the exact issue with GPR? It would show everything that is 2 inches in diameter up to a 3-4 ft depth. People underestimate the amount of rock and other debris that is buried which will be detected.
The way I see it, GPR is a good option if you have a general idea of an area, the cooperation of the location, and time. Think Expedition Unknown in St. Augustine. If you have a fairly precise location, GPR will likely be an unnecessary step.
Choice
BINGO, try your toy over here:
hxxp://tinyurl.com/y68mwfcq
BINGO
Sure will.
That seems like a logical solution. A square and a circle that are in close proximity to each other in the image most surely point directly to the very similarly situated Ether and White monuments in the Public Garden. That is, of course, after one applies the even more logical intersecting vectors from a google map.
So simple. I can’t imagine how no one has figured that out yet.
Choice
hehe... I got a couple of balls to post about on Image 3 thread.
phrabbott
A while back I was poking around and found that the Harvard Lampoon building has a fairly infamous bird on top that has the exact leg position as the falcon/bird/what-have-you in i11. I chalked it up to coincidence like most of the things I find in the Secret since it didn’t really lead anywhere and cranes do that with their legs a lot. (Not falcons though!)
However, upon doing my Japanese translation, I found that the last section is entirely about explaining the National Lampoon humor and its origins as the Harvard Lampoon for the Japanese audience. I’m sure this has been visited in the past, but just wanted to present this finding from the translation because if Byron helped at all in guiding the translator in what to preset/clarify in the back section it could be more relevant than we think. Maybe not an overt clue, per say.
My personal thoughts are that the leg position might just be an Easter egg to Sean and Ted and the Lampoon connection to the book in general or just a possible city confirmation since it’s such a subtle feature.
gManTexas
phrabbott wrote::
A while back I was poking around and found that the Harvard Lampoon building has a fairly infamous bird on top that has the exact leg position as the falcon/bird/what-have-you in i11. I chalked it up to coincidence like most of the things I find in the Secret since it didn’t really lead anywhere and cranes do that with their legs a lot. (Not falcons though!)
However, upon doing my Japanese translation, I found that the last section is entirely about explaining the National Lampoon humor and its origins as the Harvard Lampoon for the Japanese audience. I’m sure this has been visited in the past, but just wanted to present this finding from the translation because if Byron helped at all in guiding the translator in what to preset/clarify in the back section it could be more relevant than we think. Maybe not an overt clue, per say.
My personal thoughts are that the leg position might just be an Easter egg to Sean and Ted and the Lampoon connection to the book in general or just a possible city confirmation since it’s such a subtle feature.
This has been batted around in the past, and you may be able to find some threads with the search box. I believe people were looking at the Harvard stadium, but I do not remember any solid theories where the casque might be.
phrabbott
gManTexas wrote::
This has been batted around in the past, and you may be able to find some threads with the search box. I believe people were looking at the Harvard stadium, but I do not remember any solid theories where the casque might be.
Indeed. I really just wanted to add that little tid bit of possible additional evidence from the Japanese book as I’m pretty sure the very back of the Japanese clues haven’t been presented in past translations. Apologies if that’s not the case.
BINGO
I'm not sold that this is a Lampoon reference, but for the sake of the conversation...
phrabbott
BINGO wrote::
I'm not sold that this is a Lampoon reference, but for the sake of the conversation...
Haha. You’re not wrong. That’s why I started leaning towards Easter egg if anything at all.
gManTexas
phrabbott wrote::
Indeed. I really just wanted to add that little tid bit of possible additional evidence from the Japanese book as I’m pretty sure the very back of the Japanese clues haven’t been presented in past translations. Apologies if that’s not the case.
No, I meant the Harvard Lampoon building and the bird itself have been talked about. It could be worth a revisit.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
No, I meant the Harvard Lampoon building and the bird itself have been talked about. It could be worth a revisit.
I spent a bunch of time in Cambridge a few months ago. Stumbled all over Harvard and MIT campuses. The lampoon building is very odd to say the least.
Just a couple blocks away from the Lampoon building is the Charles River. The shape/bends in the river are reminiscent of the shape of the neckline in image 11.
Just a couple blocks away is Harvard Square, where the infamous 1881 gate is located. That particular location is fairly secluded because it is in the back of the Square and directly beside an overpass.
Other than those two things, I didn’t find much compelling evidence. I suppose if you start there and then grab an Uber/Lyft, one could easily access the treasure ground.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
I spent a bunch of time in Cambridge a few months ago. Stumbled all over Harvard and MIT campuses. The lampoon building is very odd to say the least.
Just a couple blocks away from the Lampoon building is the Charles River. The shape/bends in the river are reminiscent of the shape of the neckline in image 11.
Just a couple blocks away is Harvard Square, where the infamous 1881 gate is located. That particular location is fairly secluded because it is in the back of the Square and directly beside an overpass.
Other than those two things, I didn’t find much compelling evidence. I suppose if you start there and then grab an Uber/Lyft, one could easily access the treasure ground.
Thanks. I wasn't holding out much hope and I couldn't really get anything to work at Harvard, although being there in person is infinitely better.
So, while we are at it, what is the current state of the hunt in Boston? North End still?
Chaveandderie
In regards to the image of the bird, I believe it’s a Sea Hawk. The tail seems to match the ship yard in Charlestown. It’s directly across from Langone Park.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
So, while we are at it, what is the current state of the hunt in Boston? North End still?
Completely lost. No prospects of my own. Convinced we are all doing it wrong and completely overlooking or possibly even overthinking the whole puzzle.
While being desperately lost, it also feels like a shift in momentum is actually possible. It’s a strange state of affairs in this part of the world.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
Completely lost. No prospects of my own. Convinced we are all doing it wrong and completely overlooking or possibly even overthinking the whole puzzle.
While being desperately lost, it also feels like a shift in momentum is actually possible. It’s a strange state of affairs in this part of the world.
Maybe you throw some energy into helping solve NYC. I feel like with every casque we should learn more about how these things work.
Chaveandderie
For what it’s worth, my Boston Solve starts with the painting. I noticed the base of the far right blue globe is resting on the up ended end of a cannon. The other clue that leads me to believe this is a cannon, is the two toned semi circle just to the left of it. This is a devise they would use to help determine the trajectory of the cannon fire. I believe this is referring to the time the British used Copp’s Hill as their encampment to bombard Charlestown. Next, I looked up about that time period and found out that the British used the headstones in the graveyard for target practice. One, they particularly liked to shoot at was Robert Newman’s. The patriot that placed the lanterns in the old North Church on Paul Revers fateful night.
Looking at the indentations that were made on his gravestone,they look a lot like the pock marks in the painting.
gManTexas
Chaveandderie wrote::
For what it’s worth, my Boston Solve starts with the painting. I noticed the base of the far right blue globe is resting on the up ended end of a cannon. The other clue that leads me to believe this is a cannon, is the two toned semi circle just to the left of it. This is a devise they would use to help determine the trajectory of the cannon fire. I believe this is referring to the time the British used Copp’s Hill as their encampment to bombard Charlestown. Next, I looked up about that time period and found out that the British used the headstones in the graveyard for target practice. One, they particularly liked to shoot at was Robert Newman’s. The patriot that placed the lanterns in the old North Church on Paul Revers fateful night.
Looking at the indentations that were made on his gravestone,they look a lot like the pock marks in the painting.
So, where's your spot?
Kalessin
By the way, the Wikipedia articles on the Harvard Lampoon building and its architect, Edmund Wheelwright, are worth looking at. Wheelwright designed a number of Boston's iconic landmark buildings and bridges, most of which are still standing.
Choice
P + G
Public Garden
Or even P for perch
Choice
Where's the fun in that?!
'Perch' and hatch shell been discussed ad nauseam.
But Bubble-Perch-G/BPG?
GoldenMartyr
Choice wrote::
hatch shell
Ah, yes, the rhapsodic man's soil.
Choice
Tchaikovsky makes a good 'chicken' wordplay.
Giant mirrored
S L
on her apron.
PERFECT!
Chaveandderie
Looking at were the one of the indentations are, above the blue ball that looks like a globe, it seems to be next to markings that appear to be 42. I followed the markings down the side of the flower and saw the number 22 then the number 6. Seeing that the numbers appear above the North Pole, I’m taking this to mean that the numbers refer to the North coordinates. So it would read: N 42*22’6” . This Latitude runs directly through Langone Park in the North end. Next to the park is Steriti Memorial Rink a “ Coliseum with metal walls”.
gManTexas
Chaveandderie wrote::
Looking at were the one of the indentations are, above the blue ball that looks like a globe, it seems to be next to markings that appear to be 42. I followed the markings down the side of the flower and saw the number 22 then the number 6. Seeing that the numbers appear above the North Pole, I’m taking this to mean that the numbers refer to the North coordinates. So it would read: N 42*22’6” . This Latitude runs directly through Langone Park in the North end. Next to the park is Steriti Memorial Rink a “ Coliseum with metal walls”.
Are you local? Can you ho check it out?
phrabbott
Chaveandderie wrote::
Looking at were the one of the indentations are, above the blue ball that looks like a globe, it seems to be next to markings that appear to be 42. I followed the markings down the side of the flower and saw the number 22 then the number 6. Seeing that the numbers appear above the North Pole, I’m taking this to mean that the numbers refer to the North coordinates. So it would read: N 42*22’6” . This Latitude runs directly through Langone Park in the North end. Next to the park is Steriti Memorial Rink a “ Coliseum with metal walls”.
Interesting. Someone on Facebook was recently super excited about Langone Park and I didn't hate it. It seems totally digable. Apparently it's slated for full reno, so you'd better hop to. My only thought upon investigating the area was "If I were Preiss, I would have somehow referenced the Molasses flood."
gManTexas
gManTexas wrote::
Are you local? Can you ho check it out?
*Go, not ho. The Combat Zone was shut down some years ago.
strike13
phrabbott wrote::
Interesting. Someone on Facebook was recently super excited about Langone Park and I didn't hate it. It seems totally digable. Apparently it's slated for full reno, so you'd better hop to. My only thought upon investigating the area was "If I were Preiss, I would have somehow referenced the Molasses flood."
I tend to agree with you there phrabbott, i believe the molasses flood would have been mentioned. i like some of the ideas with langone, i just do not see it being there, or really even using anything about the stereti rink/indoor bocce as the colessuem. i can talk to some of the construction workers there, as i live across the street from it, to see if they find anything in their renovations, however the only thing i really see going for it is the view of the USS constitution, but i dont think that is good enough. i dont know...i spend nearly every day in or around langone park...and have of course scoured this area over and over and over and over, as i am right here. same w copps hill terrrace.
phrabbott
strike13 wrote::
i dont know...i spend nearly every day in or around langone park...and have of course scoured this area over and over and over and over, as i am right here. same w copps hill terrrace.
Same here with Prospect Park in Brooklyn. It’s going to hurt if casques end up being in these spots. Haha.
Chaveandderie
Taking from the 3rd verse “ all the letters are here to see” when I “ face the water” I see the USS Constitution. On some days they fly semaphore flags. Each flag represents a letter. I also believe these flags are represented in the painting as the two columns descending from the elbows of the woman.
gManTexas
Chaveandderie wrote::
Taking from the 3rd verse “ all the letters are here to see” when I “ face the water” I see the USS Constitution. On some days they fly semaphore flags. Each flag represents a letter. I also believe these flags are represented in the painting as the two columns descending from the elbows of the woman.
Time to put some boots on the ground and see if this location works. Although, I would listen to strike13 and Bingo.
Choice
Chaveandderie wrote::
Taking from the 3rd verse “ all the letters are here to see” when I “ face the water” I see the USS Constitution. On some days they fly semaphore flags. Each flag represents a letter. I also believe these flags are represented in the painting as the two columns descending from the elbows of the woman.
Here are the flag signals. What did you come up with?
Chaveandderie
Langone Park pulls in the major clue that Byron Preiss emphasized the importance of emigration to the foundation of America. Clementina Langone was a prominent figure in helping new Italian immigrants acclimate to America. She and her husband have two areas in the park that memorializes their contribution. The first being a sundial, and the second being two marble benches. Some were you could “ feel at home”. If you sat on the benches and “ faced the water” behind you, you would find a set of “five steps”or “stairs”leading up to the “metal Colosseum“ that are roughly in the direction of Thucydides and Xenophon
Choice
Nice interpretation. Some image matches would be nice.
BINGO
Chaveandderie wrote::
that are roughly in the direction of Thucydides and Xenophon
Can you explain what you mean with this? Are you saying that you are looking in the direction of the Boston Public Library for T&X? Or do you have another interpretation of T&X?
Chaveandderie
BINGO wrote::
Can you explain what you mean with this? Are you saying that you are looking in the direction of the Boston Public Library for T&X? Or do you have another interpretation of T&X?
Yes and no. How I am interpreting the first line of verse 3 is that when he states that we find where T is north of X we are to take five steps in the area of his direction. I’m just regarding where in the park those “steps” are. I then used them as a point of reference. “Your back to the stairs” once I located my spot.
Chaveandderie
Choice wrote::
Nice interpretation. Some image matches would be nice.
Similar Device
8ADAD6B3-203F-4360-8C4B-9A5882BAC82F.png (47.15 KiB) Viewed 231 times
Chaveandderie
Choice wrote::
Nice interpretation. Some image matches would be nice.
Similar Device
8ADAD6B3-203F-4360-8C4B-9A5882BAC82F.png (47.15 KiB) Viewed 235 times
Choice
Durian had similar theory about Castle Island. Too bad his records got erased.
Chaveandderie
Choice wrote::
Here are the flag signals. What did you come up with?
Choice
I got what you meant but if you think the symbols on her sleeves are 'flags' then there should be resemblance to the maritime flags. I really don't see a good match except maybe the square/dot ones. No triangle/dot or 3 X 3 square/dot.
Chaveandderie
Choice wrote::
I got what you meant but if you think the symbols on her sleeves are 'flags' then there should be resemblance to the maritime flags. I really don't see a good match except maybe the square/dot ones. No triangle/dot or 3 X 3 square/dot.
I think we are all looking a little to hard for exact matches between the real world and Mr.Palencars artistic interpretations.
Please don’t get me wrong, their are some, but I think those are just starting points for us.
BINGO
I have often wondered if the blue ball in the bottom right hand side of the image was a nod to Franklin’s birth place. There was debate of his actual birth location being on Union/Hanover St where his father’s candle shop was located, OR, the other argument has his birth place on Milk St.
The blue ball in the bottom right side of the image could be a blue ball sitting on a milk bottle. A nod to both sides of the story. Either way, both are located in the North End.
Who knows?
Kang
Insert Choice vs. BINGO 'balls' joke here...
Choice
We're all fans of balls, specifically the blue ones!
Chaveandderie
BINGO wrote::
I have often wondered if the blue ball in the bottom right hand side of the image was a nod to Franklin’s birth place. There was debate of his actual birth location being on Union/Hanover St where his father’s candle shop was located, OR, the other argument has his birth place on Milk St.
The blue ball in the bottom right side of the image could be a blue ball sitting on a milk bottle. A nod to both sides of the story. Either way, both are located in the North End.
Who knows?
I think the blue ball is sitting on a cannon with it’s muzzle pointing skyward.this is my other evidence leaning me to my theory of Copp’s Hill significations.
Chaveandderie
The final four clues that convinced me of my location of the casque are as follows. The first, the other lattatude coordinates, which I speculated about the numbers hidden in the arch over the woman, before I plunged them into Google Earth. W 71* 3’ 24”. My location is off by a “ minute”, but in the early 80’s how accurate could it be? I believe the gash in the arch is a artistic way of disguising a square root symbol. That’s why The “9” became a 3. And the bracelet looks like a 42 but if you try those coordinates in Google Earth it’s way off. So, I flipped it to be, 24. This landed me squarely in Langone Park, right next to Steriti Memorial Rink.
BINGO
To me, the coordinate evidence that you are proposing is the weakest of everything you have offered.
In 1981-82 lat/long coordinates would be very general. That is, degrees would be the only accurate data that the normal citizen would calculate from a map. Anything with accuracy down to minutes and seconds would be a dream.
Not impossible, but one would need a map with a lat/long grid printed on it AND hope there was enough detail on that map that shows the park you are looking for. They would next need to measure that map using the proper scale and then would need to calculate the distance measured from that scale and convert it to minutes and seconds of a certain degree.
If Preiss wanted us to decipher this from the numbers you believe are coordinate data, there would be no reason to sprinkle in square roots or other manipulations of those numbers. A full and clear list of the coordinate numbers would be disguised well enough on their own.
If you don’t believe me, give it a try with a ruler and a map and let me know how you make out. Google maps and GPS have made navigating life a bit easier in the last 37 years.
BINGO
I'm curious to see where you believe the casque is buried. Narrowing it down to a park and a broad area is a recipe for a difficult recovery.
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
I'm curious to see where you believe the casque is buried. Narrowing it down to a park and a broad area is a recipe for a difficult recovery.
Also wasn Langone Park basicallY completly rennovated in the 90s? Thats when all the Bocce Ball courts and ammenities were added.
it is cool this is the site of the Boston Molassacre though...
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
Also wasn Langone Park basicallY completly rennovated in the 90s? Thats when all the Bocce Ball courts and ammenities were added.
it is cool this is the site of the Boston Molassacre though...
Some upgrades, but generally very similar.
I have a 1983 aerial that I pulled from mapjunction. I was hoping to compare their “X marks the spot” from the current aerial vs 1983.
phrabbott
The fella on facebook was convinced it was near the flagpole straight out from home plate. Area hasn't changed at all. I don't remember his reasoning, but it wasn't exceptional.
Chaveandderie
BINGO wrote::
To me, the coordinate evidence that you are proposing is the weakest of everything you have offered.
In 1981-82 lat/long coordinates would be very general. That is, degrees would be the only accurate data that the normal citizen would calculate from a map. Anything with accuracy down to minutes and seconds would be a dream.
Not impossible, but one would need a map with a lat/long grid printed on it AND hope there was enough detail on that map that shows the park you are looking for. They would next need to measure that map using the proper scale and then would need to calculate the distance measured from that scale and convert it to minutes and seconds of a certain degree.
If Preiss wanted us to decipher this from the numbers you believe are coordinate data, there would be no reason to sprinkle in square roots or other manipulations of those numbers. A full and clear list of the coordinate numbers would be disguised well enough on their own.
If you don’t believe me, give it a try with a ruler and a map and let me know how you make out. Google maps and GPS have made navigating life a bit easier in the last 37 years.
I agree, but it did land me in the park.
Chaveandderie
I made several visits to Langone Park, and when I came across the sundial, I felt it had to have some significants. Then I saw what was at the 12 o’clock position. Then, I thought about the final lines of the verse. “18th day, 12th hour, lit by lamp light, in truth be free”. And I applied it to the sundial, which led me to my spot.
Chaveandderie
This is the next part
Chaveandderie
The lamp that is directly in front of the Langone Memorial bench’s. But it didn’t end there! “ lit by lamp light in truth be free” this told me the casting of a single lamp would narrow my search even more. Then my fellow hunter noticed that in the painting, there is only one source of light coming from above the woman.
Chaveandderie
I know, it was now down to a radius of 360* around the lamp, but I felt I could narrow that down even more. There was the sidewalk were the bench’s where. Then it hit me! The casque in Cleveland had been buried behind a wall, what if this was the case for Boston? That would put it behind the bench’s, on the other side of the wall, where only a small amount of lamp light would fall. This is the spot.
Chaveandderie
This is my spot. On the burm behind the wall, by the bench’s.
Choice
I'm sure BINGO is all over it with his GPR. Can't wait for the results.
BINGO
Langone Park Recent
BINGO
The field and fence looks to be generally unchanged since 1983.
The area behind the fence has had some considerable renovations over the years. I'm sure the poster's theory has plenty of wiggle room to keep it alive and well. But, my most basic question still stands; how do you logically get to a very specific area with any confidence? A spot that is actually worth burning a favor with Park officials AND worth going through the effort of digging.
I still believe this puzzle is more about finding the actual spot that the casque was buried, not finding a general area and digging endless holes until you find a casque or give up. It has to be that way, otherwise, the found casque count will likely stay at two.
strike13
BINGO wrote::
The field and fence looks to be generally unchanged since 1983.
The area behind the fence has had some considerable renovations over the years. I'm sure the poster's theory has plenty of wiggle room to keep it alive and well. But, my most basic question still stands; how do you logically get to a very specific area with any confidence? A spot that is actually worth burning a favor with Park officials AND worth going through the effort of digging.
I still believe this puzzle is more about finding the actual spot that the casque was buried, not finding a general area and digging endless holes until you find a casque or give up. It has to be that way, otherwise, the found casque count will likely stay at two.
I'll try to find out exactly what was right there in that area behind the little league field back in the late 70s early 80s. Looks kind of like a playground to me. I'll ask a few neighbors who grew up here, they may have photos.
strike13
Current situation...
https://imgur.com/UnLepMM
gManTexas
strike13 wrote::
Current situation...
https://imgur.com/UnLepMM
Next step, ask constuction guys if they found any weird plexiglass box...
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Next step, ask constuction guys if they found any weird plexiglass box...
The Langone site is almost completely demolished. I took some pictures this morning and spoke to the site forman and an operator. They haven't seen anything, but will keep an eye out. I gave them my contact info if anything turns up. Believe it or not, this actually works in Boston. The last picture is from a call that I got a few weeks ago. A laborer dug this up and his forman remembered a conversation that we had last year. When he called me, he said that he had found the top of a ceramic box with a little monster on the top of it... He was sooo proud of his discovery.
Field light pole bases are painted orange.
Almost, A for effort...
Choice
Beware of the legeater.