As I recall, there are letters or numbers hidden in the branches and leaves in this picture.  I don't have my book right now, but can anyone make out what the letters and numbers are?

I believe this image falls under the following theme: July?(can't see a time) Ruby Larkspur? Water Lily? (can't see a flower) Arabian Theme "The Ruby out of Araby: Scarlet of the desert sky at dawn." It's definitely a ruby in the pic, and definitely an arabian theme.  There is no flower in the pic that I can see.  However, there are towns in California and Colorado named Larkspur.

I was searching for things with 92 steps, in trying to figure out Verse 8.  There are quite a bit!  The most notable is "El Castillo" in Mexico (it IS in North America): hxxp://www.mexperience.com/inmexico/photos/10chichen.htm Please take a moment to look at the pictures of the nearby columns --- they look strikingly similar to Image 8. However, if you look at the verse, it appears that after climbing these 92 steps, you then continue your journey.  So, with "El Castillo," or any structure that has 92 steps on it, you have nowhere to go --- so it seems that the verse does not apply here. However, I posted the link since the columns look very similar, and the idea of the Arabian fairies coming to Mexico seems to fit.  Also, if the authors of the book were going to hide 12 treasures in North America, they would probably hide at least 1 in Canada and 1 in Mexico.  Just my thoughts.

Since we are talking about Image 8 matching with Verse 8, just figured that I would post questions about Image 8 in this thread.  There is apparently something which may be a modern art sculpture on the right side of the picture, disguised to look like a sand dune, I guess.  It would be nice if that sculpture was somewhere around Hermann Park. There is also something next to the column with the camel on it.  A large sundial?  Any ideas?  Boy, that highres pic feature would come in handy here...... (hint, hint) As for the stone floor, good catch on the lines resembling RR tracks.  But what about that one by itself in the lower left?  hmmm.  Also, if you notice, there is a clear demarcation of gray stones (the genie side) from the tan stones.  Perhaps this is some geographic outline?

check my post earlier for what I can find in the trees: Here's a link to train 982 in houston hxxp://www.rypn.org/TRPA/hxxp://www.ci. ... tory3.html I'm going to try to take a drive out there this weekend. Picture 8 seems to hold promise - animals (zoo) waterspout also, on the stones, by the waterspout, could the crosshatching be rail road tracks? In the tree, on the left side, there looks like a number 8.  In the tree, there is clearly a 95.  in the right side, there looks like a 9 and maybe a 6 (96) or 9E.  at the top of the tree, there is a space that looks like an N or S or Z or 2.  Or maybe I am just seeing things. wilhouse

a couple comments to Egberts post (I have the book and can get a clear picture of it) what looks like a modern art sculpture is the side of the dune.  I don't know if it's intentional or not. There is a big granite globe in the park that looks similar to the globe in the picture. There is a split stone on the left and grey stones vs. tan stones.  I can't see a meaning, but perhaps when I go there I can look around.

Here is an excerpt from a travel site.  There's a sundial there. Hermann Park, three miles south of downtown, is a pleasant green space with its own Japanese meditation garden. Exhibits on natural history at its excellent Houston Museum of Natural Science (Mon–Sat 9am–6pm, Sun 11am–6pm; $4, free Thurs 9am–noon) include the recently renovated Hall of Earth Science, with its fascinating spangly array of gems and minerals. The Cockrell Butterfly Center (additional $3), is a giant three-story greenhouse where you can walk among lurid exotic butterflies as they flutter around an artificial waterfall, and even watch them emerge from their cocoons. There’s also an IMAX theater (hourly Mon–Thurs 10am–8pm, Fri & Sat 10am–10pm, Sun noon–8pm; $6), a stunning gem collection, a good coffee shop and a sundial fountain lapping a map of the Texas coastline. The park is best avoided at night.

It's the c o ckerell butterfly exhibit.

I am slowly working on a collection of very high-res scans of the paintings, and as soon as I have it completed, I will find a place to offer it for download for everyone. But I will make a point that the next one I do is 8 so you can all get a clear look.  :)

since I am hooked on 8, I'll post what I see here in Dan's high res scan. from the left side, the 8 in the tree may be a G or a Y. It does not have a closed top. It might be an 8. There's a clear 95, perhaps 951 or 957. Maybe even a 5 as a fourth number.  A stretch would be an 8 as a fifth number. A z or n or n the tree at the top, with a 30 below it. Possibly a big 7 on the right side as part of the tree.  Below it a 9 with perhaps a 6 or an E. I can't find anything in the stones, hills or pillars.

Thanks for all the pics, Wilhouse!  I was hoping you'd have more pics of the area near the miniature trains, though, and the "4 alike" trees.  I would also be interested in hearing what you can see from the miniature train area.  I am still unclear on the layout.  The verse says "step across" and don't lose perspective, so it sounds that it is leading you over a RR track right near the mini train.  What else is in that area? Did you happen to see anything which resembled the raised blocks in the middle of the picture?  or the modern art sculpture on the right?  or the blue and tan stones?

there are some good maps posted in this and verse 1 discussions to get a good general image. I plan on going back and filling in a bit. Picture this.  Stand facing north.  about 50 feet behind you is the zoo. behind you about 5 feet and to your right about 5 feet is the snow cone stand. Directly to your right is the 982 train.  further to your right (about 50 feet) is the miniature train station. to your left is mcgovern lake. you can see most of what I just said from the first several pictures I posted. walk straight ahead to go into the forresty area.  go about 1/8-1/4 mile north to get to the SH monument.  there is a street separating the monument from the forresty area.  the train tracks are the LAST thing you step over before hitting the street. as you walk through the forresty area to the street, you go by the pioneer monument and it's two fountains. the train goes all the way around and through the park. the entire train ride (which I went on and costs $2) lasts a good 10 minutes.  I have a map I will scan that shows the route. it will be very hard to take a picture of the 4 trees while construction is going on because the construction interferes with the view. I saw nothing like the abstract art or raised stones.  the coloration could be the boundary between the lake and grass. there are literally hundreds off trees in the park, many instances of 4 trees in a clump, if you will, where the treasure could be in the middle of the clump. However, I will not dig in any of these spots until I assure myself that I know what the small, split, 3 winged and spare means. if you look carefully at the modern art in image 8, it is really a cut view of the mound / hill. Not sure it means anything, but who knows.

Unknown: walk straight ahead to go into the forresty area.  go about 1/8-1/4 mile north to get to the SH monument.  there is a street separating the monument from the forresty area.  the train tracks are the LAST thing you step over before hitting the street. the train goes all the way around and through the park. the entire train ride (which I went on and costs $2) lasts a good 10 minutes.  I have a map I will scan that shows the route. Thanks for the description --- that helps a lot.  As for stepping over the tracks, wouldn't you be able to step over them wherever they are?  It seems that the verse wants you to step over them where the big train and the mini train are.  In your example, what about walking to your right, past 982?

that's an interesting thought.  you can't really step over the 982 tracks as they only exist under the train.  you can step over the mini train tracks by the 982 train.  but it is right next to the parking lot.  I will take some pictures of this next time I go. wilhouse

Using Fox's latitude/longitude theory, Houston's is 30 x 95.  Both numbers appear in the trees.  The 30 is in the dark part of the tree, to the right of the 95. Wilhouse, when are you going again?

Hopefully this weekend. I need two things to occur: 1. It stops raining 2. My wife lets me out of painting the inside of our house. I note that 1. it stopped raining today 2. I finished painting this last weekend. wilhouse

I just remembered something I have been sitting on for quite some time that I figured may be worth sharing.  We all know that the arabian looking fellow is called a Djinn.  Now, if you have a little time on your hands or need something to peruse while on the john, read this: hxxp://www.boop.org/jan/justso/camel.htm in his collection of these short stories called "Just So Stories" there is also one titled "How did the rhino get his skin" take a look at the first paragraph of the short poem at the end: "THE Camel’s hump is an ugly lump Which well you may see at the Zoo; But uglier yet is the hump we get From having too little to do." Is there a zoo near H Park? ..... or does Rudyard Kipling come into play in the area? just some ideas.........

doh!  The Zoo is IN H Park.

Fox, take a look at the picture I took that Catherwood posted in one of her responses. It shows the pillar with the rhino on top of it. TOO coincidental. wilhouse

The location of some of the jewels is always something I've wondered about.  Some just seem so random that you would think they would be indicative of something.  If you look at the Chicago picture and then check out a map of the Grant Park and the streets surrounding, there may be a correspondence between the rounded neckline, the way the neck continues down outside of the boundaries of the picture, and the main street into Grant Park and the rounded drive/street located at the park.  Does anybody know if the fence line where the treasure was found would match up approximately with the image's jewel? What about Cleveland?  That appears to be a less random placement.  There certainly does some seem to be some images that may not have obvious lat/lon numbers in them.  Could some of the jewels be indicators and some not? >>>Dan

Fenix, specifically, what pictures are you looking at that you are referring to? wilhouse

Fenix, actually I understood most of everything that you said.  I unfortunately believe that the camels were relocated and were once on the other side of the park. I am trying to get verification of that. What I was having trouble deciding is where the lake is that you think looks like the hill in P8?  Is it in the golf course across the street (I hope we don't have to dig in a golf course, that would be bad.) wilhouse

The golf couse has been there since the 60's.  It was the first golf course to be integrated (a little history for you). According to the web, those places on the golf course that look like water are really sand traps. The place that was the old children's zoo is being refurbished into the "African area".  I walked around it last time I was there.  There are some buildings there.  I just can't believe that they could have buried this thing in the zoo itself. wilhouse

As I mentioned in another thread, I believe there is a connection with the faeries' country of origin and where each treasure is buried.  The Irish faeries buried their treasure in Chicago, where there is a large Irish population.  The Greek faeries buried their treasure in the Greek Cultural Gardens in Cleveland. "The Ruby out of Araby: Scarlet of the desert sky at dawn." This picture refers to the arabian faeries' treasure.  Is there anything in Herrmann Park which would have an arabian connection?

The golf course has sand traps...could that be a golf ball on one of the columns? wilhouse

yes, I saw that. There was also a Arabia Temple Crippled Children's Hospital across the street from the park. The hospital is rebuilt (a mess). The stables have been relocated.  I have an old address for the stables, it's about a 1/2 mile from the park.  I plan to go check it out eventually. these are good clues.  I think we might be able to corner this thing.  I plan to go to the Houston library archives to look at some old pictures of the area.  I have maps from 1993, but you can't tell anything. wilhouse

Ok, there are 7 pillars shown in the P.....4 empty pillars, 1 camel, 1 rhino & 1 ball/orb.  These pillars are shown in an Arabian flare complete with sand dunes and a Djinn.  My query is this,  could this in any way tie into TE Lawrence 's story about Lawrence of Arabia titled "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom"? here is a good bio on Mr. Lawrence:  hxxp://www.lawrenceofarabia.info/life/biog.htm

neVar, how about some of your graphics magic? On the front column with the orb on it, at the very bottom, are some ?something? a diamond? an 8? I can't get it clear enough. can you help? wilhouse

Image 8 for me is all about perspective. None of the other pictures seem to show as much foreground to background “busyness”.  But I’ll get to that point soon. On the forward column there seems to be an “8” there – or a pair of musical notes on its side.  Although not blatant – this might be recognizable on-site. Further up the column is a dimple like mark. I have always found it curious how the shadows of the columns and the “spout-man” were not aligned.  Also, the shadow of the “gem” is going the wrong way – that is, just a bit; it could be nothing.  Secondly, since the shadows are profound (as if coming from the SUN), that four pointed star in the upper left-hand corner can’t be the SUN.  Could this be true in the other pictures, as well?  Using red-triangles in the next picture I have tried to show the difference in shadows. The Rhino-Pole sort of looks like the top of a PEZ candy dispenser: But alas, PEZ has lots of other animals – but no Rhinoceros! [url]hxxp://pezco.securesites.com/store/products/product_view.php?offerCode=370&return=%2Fstore%2Fproducts%2Fproducts_search.php%3Faction%3DSEARCH%26searchT erms%3Danimals[/url] The camel looks like the camel on a pack of Camel Cigarettes. And there is an odd arrangement of rocks under the camel pole.  I suppose you have to just be there to notice it. And the numbers in the Trees: Lastly, if you look at the lower left hand corner of this picture you will notice that the line of square stones runs straight back.  All the other perspective lines diverge away from this point.  This picture has lots of changing perspectives – and the columns are placed in odd places which cause the view to be distorted.  Below is a (rough) aerial view of the objects in this picture.

neVar, that was great!! a lot of your post is about perspective. that has to tie in to the phrase in V1:"Perspective should not be lost" wilhouse

Thanks again for the great pictures...i love the up close stuff ;]

They definitely arent exact matches (which may be what we need) but the columns in the P may refer to the Mecom-Rockwell fountain & Colonnade which is at the entrance to Hermann Park. hxxp://www.ci.houston.tx.us/departme/pa ... tory3.html still searching for small split 3-winged and slight....

Fox, try this. Instead of 3-winged, think three with wings (three that are winged). Like three birds, three faries, three angels. I posted some pictures of the fountain columns. They are pretty radically different. wilhouse

yeah, I know the columns are different...it is quite obvious to see that in the pic of the fountain in my above link...just thinking they may "represent" the columns around the fountain.  The djinn in the P kind of looks like the water spout. i see what you mean about 3 things with wings, not one thing with 3 wings.  This may be another instance where we are incorrectly reading it according to how we think it should flow.  I mean, one line says ".....four alike"  & then the next 2 lines give us a list of 4 things 1-small 2-split 3-3 winged & 4-slight....but, maybe these two parts dont go together... I am thinking more like this: -"small of scale step across"  =  the miniture trains -"perspective should not be lost in the center of four alike"    =  maybe something simple like four trees mentioned numerous times... -"small, split three winged and slight"  =  may just be referring to 1,2,3 and/OR 4 seperate things nearby.

since Egbert found columns identical to the ones in the P, I have always assumed that P8 columns would be the same too. You are right that that is not a good assumption. As to the verse, we have had many discussions on the four alike part in my house.  Another way to look at it, just to add to the confusion: In the center of four alike are three things: one small, one slight, one split, all with wings.  Birds or angels or fairies?  You are right, this could be any number of things, but the minimum number would be three if we believe it means three with wings. the "small of scale step across" has me stumped because it is after the "through the wood".  if you go through the wood, you have passed the tracks.  if it said INTO the wood, then it would be clearer.  part of this would be easier to understand if we had better photos of what everything looked like in 1981. thanks for the conversation y'all. it helps bring up new points. wilhouse

let me see if I understand:  you are saying there may be four like things (trees, fountains, even benches, etc...) and in the center of the 4 (possibly a courtyard area) your 3 items will be.  Now why just 3?  If it were 3 things, each with wings, then wouldnt the phrase 3-winged either come at the beginning or the end of the list....not in the center.  Placed in the center, it sounds like a fourth item of the list.

I think we may probably only need to (or actually) locate one of the pillars.  The pillars are too different to be located all in one area, this is why I think they may just be referring to something.  For example...the zoo: if the zoo used large pillars with sculptures (or even just signs) of each exhibit, I feel the pillars would all be the same.

Fox, I'm not following you (it's early).  Could you explain? wilhouse

which part wilhouse? the 1st part of the post basically means that I think only 1 of the pillars will be exact near the casque.  I just dont see the architects using such different styles of pillars if they are in close proximity of each other.  This is why I think the pillar(S) {plural} simply represent a group of pillars possibly near the casque and only 1 of them will be exact....ie..the pillars around the fountain not being exact but a representation of the pillars.  Then we have to find an exact pillar near the Houston casque. the part of my post about the zoo ties in with this.  If you drew up the plans for a zoo or were hired to decorate the grounds with pillars for each of the exhibits, you would make them the same style.

Just some food for thought: The angled row of groundstones that start under the second pillar from the left (the edge starts at the end of the first) plus the wall looks alot like the State of Nevada. The globe pillar's base even gives it that funky nubb at the bottom and provides the straight right side of the State And lastly, there is a mountain range there called The Ruby Mountains. Slightly lower there are a bunch of reservations and places like Reno and Carson City (which I believe has an airport too) Thoughts please

perhaps, But this might be a forced view.

Just a thought, it wasn't too farfetched to me. I thought I saw something, and just wondered what others thought, that's all. I love riddles and hunts and was just looking for a second opinion. And thanks for the photo too, it really helps to judge when their side by side. Edit: After all, I might have it all wrong, but I felt that every little bit helps. Edit Again: AH! they also have annual camel races in Carson City in September. The Nevada state museum is located on Carson St. (Hwy. 395). There is also a railroad museum nearby I don't know, I'll keep looking for other relavent stuff I see the Houston things though, don't get me wrong, being in the 'Lone Star' State and all. If I can't peg the Rhino head, then you're right. Isn't it annoying how several places can fit the same info, but i'll try and disprove mine for ya.

If Image 8 is not Houston, then someone will have to 'splain the 30 and 95 (lat/long of Houston) clearly shown in the leaves of the tree. however, if you have a 982 train in Nevada, then you're in the running. wilhouse

if it isnt in houston than we have one of the picture wrong because Preiss said there is one in houston and this is the only picture we are actually closest to being houston

yes, houston seems to be a good fit....too perfect..?.. i hope not.  The entire P fits better in NV but the lat/lon seen is hard to explain.  My only problem is this....are we sure the 982-V goes with this P?  Maybe Houston is the V but not the P or vice-versa.  We need to find another casque to start narrowing down our searches. feel free to keep the ideas coming AQ, no idea is a dumb one...'cept for maybe 4corners  ;)

Please look at the cap / hat the djinn is wearing in Picture 8, then look at this. hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.js ... mbdmzaNnmg wilhouse

wilhouse-- Where is that statue located?  If in Houston, where is it in relation to the present theory?  --Johann

The location where it is now is not the location where it was in 1982. In 1982, it was in the children's zoo, directly in front of the auditorium (big black circle in the south end of the children's zoo in the 1975 map). If you walked through the center of the childrens zoo (north to south) it would appear like this in 1982: Enter childrens zoo.  To the right (west) is dwarf cattle (small of scale?). To the left, 2 statues of hawks, one with a wing busted off (3 winged?).  Walk over a bridge (step across?) and you are in the center of the 4 petting zoo compounds, one of which is Asia (the center of 4 alike?). This is where a small (small?) scale Japanese lantern is in the middle of a dirt area (which is now the bricked in circular area).  Walk straight ahead 20 feet and see Brownie the Elf Statue, which is a fountain with water coming out of his hand, in a planter (there's the spout?). wilhouse

Well, I spent about 3 hours digging in the central area in the zoo Sunday, along with the current zoo director, the zoo curator from 1982 and his wife, and Doc Love. Unfortunately, the bricks are set in place in 6 inches of concrete.  We'd need a bobcat to get the concrete out (which by the way they have at the zoo).  The zoo director won't let us dig out the concrete without some positive indication from Preiss that the treasure is in that spot.  I am working that angle. In the mean time, check out this picture. hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEMmbdmzaNnuA This is a picture of a lamp that used to be in the zoo. They changed out the globes as they broke because they couldn't get replacements. These things were all over the children's zoo. I'm trying to find out if they were all over the zoo. As an added bonus, it is possible (trying to confirm) that there were two llamas in the zoo 1980s time frame, a papa llama named Pierre and a baby llama named Snowflake. wilhouse

cross posted to the states pix thread also

Thanks Falcon. As a follow up, it turns out that those globe lights were ONLY in the Children's Zoo. wilhouse

No, for some reason I have nothing of SA. However, I am going back this weekend. I plan to dig in the fountain where Brownie the elf sits. It is right under a lamp. It turns out that there were only a handfull of lights in the children's zoo, and only about 4 of them are in dirt. the rest are in concrete. I plan to dig in every dirt area with a lamp that exists... The zoo director has some more shots of the 80s, I will try to see if there are some of SA. Keep in mind the llamas were in their own pen. I will take a shot of it this weekend. wilhouse

I like the idea of snowflake, as I own a llama named shamrock. But, and I don't mean to be a downer. going over the cleveland/Chicago clues - all the clues had permanance. Statues, fountains,streetnames, carvings in monuments. stuff that would be expected to be there for a long time. The name of an animal in a zoo, - or a snowcone cart - seems too transient to me I think you have a match with the elf hat though - I wish you had a photo of it from the other side. (matching the view of the ginn. Explain to me why you are digging in the fountain? was it not there in 82? and doesn't the fountain have a cement bottom?

I agree with your comments about the Llama names being intransient, and that concerns me too. But then, Preiss said he expected people to find the treasures right away... When I go back I will get a shot of Brownie from the other side. The elf fountain was put in the children's zoo in the early 70's (it was made in the 50's, long story).  It was put there placed on stones in a concrete basin and used as a fountain. The elf itself is the fountain, kind of represented by the Djinn coming out of the column of water in P8. Water came from his right hand. Sometime before 1982, the fountain was filled in with dirt. Not sure exactly when, however I have a picture dated August 1982 that shows the fountain completely filled in with dirt, with bushes growing in it.  It is not clear how deep it is, but it could be about 2 feet.  It is filled in now. Yes, it has a concrete bottom, but I believe it is deep enough to hide the cask.  The elf was moved to the center of the park in 2000 when the children's zoo closed. wilhouse

Unknown: I like the idea of snowflake, as I own a llama named shamrock. You own a llama ? ! ? !

used to live in the Los Angeles Suburbs. nice house - postage stamp sized lot. 5 years ago - we sold the house and moved to the Sierra Foothills above Sacramento, Now we have 3 acres, 1 llama, 2 goats, 2 rabbits, 4 chickens, 2 cats, 2 dogs, and a lizard. Llamas a pretty common around here. My daughters are in 4H which explains the chickens and goats. The llama acts as a watch animal and protects the goats and chickens from mountain lions and such. Is there a thread with the numbers/letters found in each picture?

Unknown: Now we have 3 acres, 1 llama, 2 goats, 2 rabbits, 4 chickens, 2 cats, 2 dogs, and a lizard. .....and a partridge in a pear tree

Unknown: .....and a partridge in a pear tree LOL- Here is an interesting blown up image from the Djinn's spout ...do you see a skull?  ???

Yes, and right above it is a person sitting down. wilhouse

interesting, I had never noticed the skull before but it sure does look like one.  It looks more like a primate (gorilla?) skull than a human one.  Any info on a famous monkey in the zoo?

There was a very famous gorilla in the zoo in the late 70's.  It was the oldest gorilla in captivity in the US at the time. I believe it was put down in the early 80's. It was in the gorilla house, directly north of the Children's zoo. And yes, the gorilla house looked like a fortress and had many plexiglass windows so you could see the gorillas!! wilhouse

Oh boy....make the connections.

It's just so hard to do without actually seeing it.  It is no longer there... This whole thing is a crap shoot.  About the only serious actual clue that I have confirmed and feel good about is the hat on the Elf fountain.  Without that hat, I am not sure I would even feel comfortable digging there. wilhouse

Hi all, I'm new to this hunt (just saw it yesterday).  I'm catching up on all of the posts.  I'll contribute what I can.  Anyway, on to my thoughts about picture 8, and sorry if they're not new... At the moment, I only have the online images to study, so if I'm way off, it's not my fault! If you look at the big orb, and go up and to the right (1:30-ish on a clock, NE on a compass) there's a leaf that looks a lot like a space shuttle, which works with Houston. I think on pg.3 of this thread, neVar posted about the angles of shadows and perspectives and how the shadow of the djinn/waterspout-guy didn't seem to match the shadows of the pillars.   The guy's shadow is really interesting - it looks kinda like a Bowie knife, or maybe a train whistle.  Along the bottom edge of that shadow, a little left of center, there's a notch.  There's an arc of shadow that ends in that notch.  At first glance, that arc might look like a seam between stones, but I don't think it is.  Perhaps this arc is the steam coming out of a train whistle?  Or perhaps it's water coming out of a fountain? At the bottom of the camel's pillar, the pile or arrangement of rocks looks kind of like a ramp. That's it for now.  I hope to contribute more in the near future. - Jambone

Jambone, welcome aboard. Good to have you here. Yes, I believe you are right, the djinn's shadow does look a bit like a whistle. The leaf you refer to has been a source of question for me too.  If you look on my last link post, you'll see a tree in the zoo that has leaves that look just like that. wilhouse

Hi all.  I'm new here... saw Eggberts article in the newspaper and took an interest in this hunt.  I've spent the last day and a half basically reading every post on all the threads Image and Verse threads. Willhouse, you said that there are 4 poles with the orbs on top that can be dug around.  If you look at the picture, the ruby is right below the column with the orb.  Maybe this is a clue that the casque is indeed below one of the poles.  To me, the ruby looks too random just to be sitting on the ground right there.  It has to be some sort of clue... Nick

Pre1321, welcome to the board, and thanks, all input is appreciated by everyone here. Yes, I agree with you completely.  If you look up my last post with a link (under verse 1, not under image you can see the picture I took in front of the nursery in the zoo, to the left of the globe light.  That area was dirt in 1982, and is now concrete.  I think there is a good chance the cask is under there.  Positioning wise, it is inbetween the globe light and the elf, like the picture. I emailed Preiss submitting it as a solution.  He is supposed to be looking up the answer (and Egbert's gem) in the vault this month. Perhaps he will be able to tell me if it is there. Unfortunately, if it was there, it may be destroyed now.  But if he tells me it is there, the zoo director has told me that he will try to get us permission from his boss to break up the concrete and dig there. we'll see. wilhouse

Has anyone figured out the significance of the stiching on the square at the bottom? I'm still trying to catch up on all the threads here

No, but I have a theory that I will check out on Friday and let you know. It could just be a link to the train (982) from verse 1, if it is RR tracks. wilhouse

Unknown: It could just be a link to the train (982) from verse 1, if it is RR tracks. First thing I thought of was a baseball.  Or stitches, as in the ones that close a wound.

note that they appear in the area that looks like it is water. wilhouse

I went to the zoo today. I am now known there as the "crazy guy looking for treasure".  I'm not so sure that that's too far off... I wanted to test out my theory on the stitching by the djinn. Take a look at the spout steps pictures: hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEMmbdmzaNmFH These steps lead up to a curved area that now has fencing around it, but in 1982 was all open.  You can see through a hole in the slats that there's two return pipes, or  spouts, and rocks.  Water originally came down the rocks like a waterfall. Note that there are 6 steps leading to the spout, just like there are 6 "stiches" leading to the spout in the picture.   Note that dictionary.com defines spout as "A tube, mouth, or pipe through which liquid is released or discharged" If you stand next to the steps, to your left is the concession stand, a tower of delights. wilhouse

Judging by the photo, the concession stand even looks tower-shaped.  Am I looking at this correctly?

You are. It is cylindrical in shape, and looks like a tower.  The zoo had / has offices on the top floor, and sold concessions on the bottom. wilhouse

Here's a list of potential spots for the cask, some of which I have partly investigated, one fully, some can't be: Possible cask locations in the zoo: description reason for potential location result Circular area in center of 4 compounds center of 4 covered with concrete Area around asia compound falls gently in dec / image 8 not investigated Elf fountain there’s the spout not there By left globe light image 8 covered with concrete By right globe light image 8 partly investigated Circular area by concession stand image 8 partly investigated Dirt area between CS and spout image 8 partly investigated the reason some places are partly investigated are because the dirt is so hard and there are so many roots, that it is not possible to dig the whole area up in one try. However, using the list, I will try and systematically eliminate places.  The spots covered in concrete I have submitted to Preiss as possible locations, however, he says he can not answer me until he has retrieved the information from the vault. wilhouse

There is more than one skull in the picture...not sure if it means anything at all, but I thought I'd post them anyway

nectar, can't see your images. wilhouse

sorry, maybe I didn't insert them correctly...I put them in a yahoo photo album...here is the link. hxxp://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cbouchard89/album?.dir=/9c9c I cross referenced the skull and Houston TX and found an article about the Texas Crystal Skull (in Houston TX since 1970) that was given to a woman by Norbu Chin, a former American spy turned Red Hat llama... hxxp://www.click2houston.com/news/1762331/detail.html Again....this could be the result of trying desparately to match anything at all together, but I figure every little bit helps.

Could the higher of the two waterspout skulls resemble a harlequin (?) face, half black and half white?

That's the only face that doesnt resemble a "skull" but I included it anyway because it's a face....I see what you mean by the half black half white face though.

Wilhouse, Any luck in getting BP to get the information from the safe deposit box?

None so far. As of today that is. wilhouse

Diversionary question while eagerly awaiting the report from Mr. Wilhouse's drastic measures..... What's the Houston "landmark"? Here's what I mean.  A common theme through several of our well-agreed-upon Images is the clear presence of at least one landmark that positively confirms that you are in the right city.  Chicago has the Bowman (and Water Tower).  Cleveland has Terminal Tower and the Greek Wall.  Charleston has Ft. Sumter and the map of the city.  Milwaukee has City Hall and the rebus. It appears that when Palencar constructed the images, he deliberately chose to include these landmarks as confirmers of the lat/long clues.  He would have picked things that were very nearly permanent - things that the cities would not eliminate (although we tried with Ft. Sumter once).  I'm not certain that this pattern is universal through all of the Images, but it seems to be a strong pattern. So, what in Image 8 physically exists in Houston today?  A column, column detail, or the group of columns as a whole seem like good candidates, as do the paving stones to a lesser extent.

Pine, the columns, if I have found the right ones, are made from wood, and are definately not permanent. I am not sure yet about the paving stones. I would have to say that nothing in the image leads you directly to Houston, except the very clear lat/long numbers. wilhouse

With all of the great theories on this being Houston with V1, I hate to be the one to toss out other possibilities but.....  If a land mark is what you need....how bout this.... hxxp://www.raulsphotography.com/city%20 ... as%202.JPG sorry all, just wanted to toss it out.    :-X

Fox, I'm dense. What are you trying to point out? And what in that picture would be the number 982? Also, while I'm not completely familiar with all of Dallas, I know that some of these buildings were not there in 1982. wilhouse

I think he is saying the building with the sphere on it in dallas matches the pillar with the sphere in the picture--- Matt

OK. it looks to be Reunion Tower, next to the Hyatt: hxxp://www.dallasarchitecture.info/reunion.htm built in 1978.  Someone in Dallas - feel free to check it out. wilhouse

sorry for being so vague wilhouse.....& thanks for the clarification falcon.  Reunion tower was what I was thinking "kind of" looked like our orb-topped column.  No 982 found or anything else in the "Big D" so far though....those still seem to fit Houston like a glove.  Just wanted to rock the boat a little.

Sorry folks, but here is yet another idea tossed out for this P.  Could this P possibly be referring to Arizona?  Here is why I ask: 1) a stretch possibility for the curved "track marks?" along with the star in the sky..... ... hxxp://www.2bbsouthwest.org/arizonaflag.gif 2)  the pillars...ball, camel & rhino.....  If you look at a map of Arizona...the camel fits camelback mountain (Phoenix)  the ball could be Globe, AZ and if you line these 2 cities up...the rhino lands appx where Rye, AZ is located. OK...silly ideas...but I thought I would share them nonetheless.

Fox, you've laid out the whole state of Arizona as possible treasure ground. Happy digging... wilhouse

hehehehe,  thanks for the encouragement wilhouse. as stated above, just tossing out other ideas until we are %100 sure of another site with P/V and have the casque in our hands. well, I'm off to the southeastern corner of AZ to begin my tedious & systematic removal of 3 1/2 feet of dirt off of the entire state of AZ until I find the casque.  :P

lol if i was in AZ id come help.  :)

ok, based on Egbert's clue of the theme being a hint, this theme is Araby, or Arabia. Arabia, now Saudi Arabia, is technically part of Asia. Camels are in Asia, and there was one camel in the children's zoo. There was one elephant too. The best bet is the contact area itself named Asia. Perhaps in the dirt areas outside of the fence.  The area inside the contact area, where the animals were, is and was hard as rock. They used a special clay to make the area hard so the animals would not root and dig.  The zookeeper told me that even in 82 he doubts that it was possible to dig in that area. wilhouse

googling for images gives the strangest results sometimes: hxxp://www.themescapesinc.com/wpe38366.jpg

Fox, et al.: I checked with the zoo director.  No flag was flown on the children's zoo flagpole in the late 70's to early 80's. It was not used in this time period. Note that the flagpole is in the Africa contact area. wilhouse

Fenix, the way you have drawn it is not quite right, try this: CAMEL RHINO X Concession Stand X Flagpole X Party Room BROWNIE

Wilhouse, Over on the V1 thread (Reply #113, 7/7/04), you described the flagpole as being in Asia. I'm not sure I understand what's being depicted in the last couple of posts. Pine

...but looking some more, it appears over the top of the crenelated stuccoed gate, which is labelled "Africa" in one of the 1960's newspaper photos... ...'course, the Africa and Asia pens are very close, so I'm not sure what I'm seeing...

Ok, Pine, you caught me. The flagpole is in Africa. I checked the pics and it is clear.  I changed the post in verse 1 so as not to confuse anyone. For Fenix's sake, and anyone else who is confused, Pine and I are drawing overhead maps of the zoo with the image 8 items placed in the zoo.  Try this: X982 Train XCamel (lots of blank lines) XRhino (lots of blank lines) XConcession Stand           XAqua Tunnel XLatin America                            XAfrica (Flagpole) XRound Tiled Area XNorth America                           XAsia XParty Room XBrownie the elf

Check out the latest images I just posted. These are images made from slides the zoo director had, and you can really zoom in on them. I use paint shop pro, but even Windows Picture Viewer did a good job.  Save the images to your hard drive to really look at them.  These slides were from 1978: hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.js ... mbdmzaNmF0 Note the darker one.  It is of the center of the four contact areas, with the japanese lantern. It is facing south, looking at the brownie the elf fountain in the background.  Note the tile pavers around the lantern. You can see them if you zoom in. That means that the casque is NOT in the center of the 4 areas.  But, could that circular area be a representation of the globe in Image 8? Note also the foliage.  It is much more developed than I expected.  I don't think Preiss would have dug up bushes. EGBERT: where you dug up your casque it was just dirt right? No bushes there? The other two shots are of the nursery with the globe lights and the aqua tunnel. wilhouse

Unknown: Note also the foliage.  It is much more developed than I expected.  I don't think Preiss would have dug up bushes. EGBERT: where you dug up your casque it was just dirt right? No bushes there? Well, where the treasure was buried, it was just dirt.  But there were bushes there, about 2 feet away.  You're right, though --- he would not have buried the treasure underneath bushes.

Sir Eg, any response to this question: did you ever get an idea of WHEN Preiss buried all the treasures? I remember reading that he did it in a couple days.  When exactly would be a great thing to know.  I assume it was 1982, but maybe not!! wilhouse

Well, what I gather from speaking with him is that he buried them in 1981 or 1982.  He did things in the following order: 1.  make casques and keys 2.  research locations 3.  bury treasures 4.  create verses 5.  paint pics with JJP 6.  publish book

Well, that's about the time frame I expected. wilhouse

Please take a look at the picture of the CZ that I posted in reply number 108, the darker one with the japanese lantern in the middle: hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.js ... mbdmzaNmF0 Right click on the pick and download it.  Then zoom in to see the lantern. Is it my wishful viewing or does the stand that the lantern is sitting on (not the bottom base piece but the next vertical piece) look very similar to the piece that the camel is sitting on in image 8? I know it doesn't have the "bulge" in the center, but artist's license you know. wilhouse

Fenix, yes, there is an old log cabin across the street from the zoo. It is a "museum".  Actually, I've never been there. Perhaps I should go take a look. wilhouse

Yesterday I went digging in the CZ. Obviously I didn't find anything. My plan was to dig in all the open spots around the Asia exhibit, which I mostly did.  There are various spots next to stone walls where the benches are that would be good spots to bury the casque.  I either dug or poked at all of them with no success. There was a spot across from the Asia exhibit which used to be all grass, but was converted to a garden.  I poked around there a bit, but it is really overgrown with ivy so it was hard to do. I still have had no success decoding the crucial lines of verse 1, small, split, three winged and slight. Others have remarked that perhaps that verse goes with another image.  If so, they first need to determine what their number 982 is. wilhouse

I'm with Wilhouse on this one.  Find another 982 and I may agree but before then....this V seems quite obvious to lead us to Houston.  The 982 & the quote from Hermann seem to be much more than coincidentaly pointing to Hermann Park in Houston. Keep digging Wilhouse, you will find that casque....eventually  ::)

New to game, thanks to Eg's article in home town Cleveland PD.  Just found this site, Lovin' it.  Been at it about 6 months.  Is everyone sure of Houston and zoo as match to this site??  This image reminds me of Las Vegas and fits much better with desert theme:  Aladdin's (Djinn), Paris (don't know if this existed in 1981-2?? probably not right..), Algier's (rhino), and the Sahara (camel looks just like their sign) down the strip (keeps the perspective).  State route '95' runs right through Las Vegas, and the branch attached to "95" if followed, runs a very similar route visually through Vegas.  Don't know about 96 or 30 at this point.  Caesars' Palace has columns galore and had a 15 story tower added to it many years ago.   V2 may fit:  "Jewels abound" (referencing vegas lights at night),  "...build palaces to shelter their heads for a night" (the hotels and the glamour).   All the icons are facing West in the direction of the setting sun.

Stercox, welcome aboard. All views are appreciated and desired. I do have an email from Preiss that says that there is a Houston casque. He did not say which one. I can't find a better fit for Houston than image 8.  Check out the cap on Brownie the elf and the cap on the djinn. Also, 95/30 is Lat/Long for Houston. uh, all icons facing west would face the sunset...no matter where they are in the US... wilhouse

Thanks for the Welcome, Wilhouse!  Looks like you have some good leads on this and a good tie in to V1 (982).  Have you found the Arab/Persian theme connection to this??  I think that the themes will prove to be very important.  But I'm the new kid on the block.  Have been chewing on a different P/V this month and wanted to poke around the board, offer my two cents, and introduce myself.  Trying to look at things from a different angle.  Will post with definitive progress.  Good luck in Houston.

Stercox, as Wilhouse said...welcome aboard.  feel free to let your ideas flow.  Most of us agree that the 982V seems to be leading to Houston (Hermann Prk) but we are all still wondering about the corresponding V.  Some time ago, I stumbled upon the Lat/Lon #'s that appear in many of the P's and that is why we are "tentatively" using the camel P for Houston.  I really do like your ideas on Vegas and will be poking around there with this P now as well. Just because you are the new kid on the block, please dont think your ideas are stupid.  Scan the posts for P1 and you will see that a new kid found links to Charleston SC. again...welcome!

Stercox, don't know why I didn't see your question before this. As to the Arab theme, there are several.  The most glaring is the Asia contact area, of course Arabia is in Asia.  Then there was a one hump camel that lived in the CZ.  Also a fox and perhaps an Oryx, I forget. wilhouse

Hello everyone. I am running out of time so I shall make this quick. Picture 8: Phoenix, Arizona. My notes (in a Word document so you can see the photos): hxxp://www.tc.umn.edu/~cabra004/notesP8.doc Gotta go, it's snowing and traffic is heinous. I am in Minneapolis if you need to have someone poke around the cherry in the spoon. By the way, there are several buildings here that are 'castles.' Cheers.

Unknown: Also a fox and perhaps an Oryx, I forget. wilhouse <----- lived there long ago but have since moved out...

Ha! Fox!... BTW, it does turn out that there is still an Arabian Fox exhibit in the CZ. wilhouse

Perhaps there's some connection to Johnson Space Center in Houston, which has a Rocket Park.  One of the rockets is called "Little Joe" (perhaps a play on words for Joe Camel, although that is a bit of a stretch).  Another rocket is the Mercury "Redstone"  and the Saturn V rocket is also there. hxxp://www.wilhelm-aerospace.org/Photos ... posite.jpg Possible clues in Verse 8: "View the three stories of Mitchell" Edgar Mitchell was in the Apollo 14 moon program.  The three stories may be referring to the three stages of the saturn V rocket at the rocket park, that are laid out, end to end on the ground. "As you walk the beating of the world At a distance in time" There is a sidewalk that runs along the edge of the Saturn V hxxp://www.wilhelm-aerospace.org/Photos ... v-full.jpg "From three who lived there At a distance in space" Could be talking about the 3 astronauts who lived in the space capsule,or could be talking about the rocket stages or could be talking about the Saturn V, Mercury Redstone and Little Joe. "You'll see a letter from the country" Perhaps regarding the Moon landings or rocket launches? "On a proud, tall fifth" Sounds like the Saturn V rocket.   Since it says "on a proud, tall fifth," it may mean that its at the southern foot of the  command module which is at the tip of the Saturn V rocket and held the crew of 3 during the space flights. At its southern foot The treasure waits. (Addendum: If it turns out that particular Saturn V was for Apollo 14 (Mitchell's flight), we may have a match )

Hey Undo, there are good points you made in your post. Could I ask you to repost it under the thread marked Verse 8, and delete if from image 8, for continuity?  We appreciate it!! Image 8 does have the lat/long for houston in it, and I believe it points to hermann park, but your discussion is better served under Verse 8. regards, wilhouse

These are from wilhouse: hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/public_html/www/TheSecret/images/stitched%20cz.jpg and hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/public_html/www/TheSecret/images/stitchedczwith8.jpg Mark

Thanks Mark!! OK Fox, let's see if I can convince you that Image 8 is the Houston CZ: DocLove and I spent several hours in the CZ yesterday digging, with no success.  This follows going last weekend and not having any success. BUT, last weekend Doc noticed something that we did further explore yesterday.  Look at the two pics that Mark posted in the post directly above this one. The first pic is a stitched together view from the CZ at it's most southern tip, next to the auditorium, looking north, but panoramic from west (left) to east (right).  Notice on the west (left) the building which was the Party Building (they held parties there).  Notice the globe light. Notice the pole.  They are NOT connected, but when you stand in ONE specific spot it LOOKS like there is a globe on top of the pole. Thinking about it, the camel is not really on the pole, the rhino is not really on the pole, and apparently the globe is not really on the pole. The next thing is hard to see, but if you look carefully in the background to the right of the party building behind the rock wall you can barely see the totem type pole that is at the entrance to the North America area.  It is the pole that looks like the pole in image 8 with the camel that I have previously posted (see link below). Continuing left to right, directly ahead, is nothing now but a tree (NOT the big tree directly in front of the camera but the tree in the bushes).  BUT, it turns out that there WAS a totem type pole there just like the one in Image 8 (the rhino pole) and like the one in the North America area.  We found it in one of the old pictures I had posted (check the link below, image DSC00078. It's hard to see, but it is sticking up just a little bit behind the small hut to the right of center in the background behind the bridge - it looks like it's in front of the auditorium.  We checked out the angle, it is NOT the one in the North America area entrance).  So straight ahead would be where the next pole is.  To the right, next to the auditorium you see the area where the elf fountain was (raised planter area with small tree-like plants).  Finally, look at the steps around the auditorium.  They have metal rails on them.  From where you are standing, they look like curving train tracks, especially when you step back a bit. I took image 8 and cut the pieces from the Image and pasted them into the stitched photo.  You can see this as the second photo Mark posted. In my humble opinion, this is the spot Preiss stood when he got the idea for Image 8.  The pieces fit.  Note that the camels, rhinos and berms are all north of the CZ. We dug a 1 1/2 foot trench from the pole to the end of the dirt area (basically looking at the pole towards you).  Unfortunately, with Houston weather, the trench filled with groundwater. I really believe it's somewhere close.  Look at this slideshow, Picture DSC00087: hxxp://share-dell.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEMmbdmzaNnzw This is a picture from the opposite side, looking at the party house (it's called the graphics building in the shot, which is what it is now).  You can see the little cinder block men and the pole. It's there, I am sure of it!! wilhouse

anyone have any thoughts or ideas on my previous post? wilhouse

Fenix, I feel your confusion.  If the three winged and slight are the little cinder block guys (there is evidence of small ones, split ones, winged ones, not sure about slight), then I only have pictures of three in that area. Yes, the whole area encompassed by the photo is about 20-30 feet across. I should have made that clearer. If you stand on the pad where brownie was, you can look right at the building. Perspective is kind of weird in that area when you compare it to the image 8.  Instead of saying northwest, say left. Falls in December night?  I don't know.  If it means the temperature, there were external thermometers on the buildings. I wish I had better photos of the place back in 1982. I did notice in verse 4 (cleveland) that even though the final location is the line that says "Seven steps up you can hop From the bottom level", the verse goes on from there also to further define the area. wilhouse

I'm still waiting for Fox to weigh in. wilhouse

whew....sorry bout the wait Wilhouse....been away from these boards way too long. I do indeed like your ideas.  Your post seems like you felt like you had to convince me.....quite the contrary Wil, I have always thought that we are just missing that last piece of the puzzle which will lead you to the Houston casque.  It IS THERE...but where?

I think it is in the dirt area by the party building, but it is a big area and will take a lot of digging.  I can't see what Preiss saw, so I can't find the exact same clues.  I'm still looking at the old photos to try and get a better idea. Wilhouse

my suggestion.......?...... get a backhoe and dig the whole dirt area up after all....with all of the time spent there with the park curator...you must own 1/2 stock in the place it is there wilhouse...& i feel you will be the next lucky soul to unearth the next elusive casque.

ironically, they have a backhoe, and they are going to renovate the cz next year. the zoo director told me that I can come in a few weeks before they do that, take the backhoe, and dig up whatever I want. I'd really like to find it before that... wilhouse

you're kidding.....how funny, I was joking I'm with you tho,  think it would be much better finding the thing before the backhoe rolls in.  You are likely to just plow over the poor little casque with the backhoe.  Now, let's see how much pull you have with Mr. Zooman......  what are the odds of you delaying the whole renovation project until we find our casque?  lol

Not sure if this is what Undomielle was getting at in an earlier post, but here goes... Ruby = red stone -> Mercury Redstone -> NASA -> Houston It's a bit of a stretch and all it possibly does is tie the image to Houston.  I feel that the casque is indeed in Hermann Park and not down at NASA. - Jambone

Hi folks, I found our missing larkspur (which, by all rights, should be in this picture). Here is a larkspur: For comparison, here is the bit of Image 8 from just NE of the globe, and a larkspur flower in the same orientation. Not a space shuttle after all...

Wilhouse, When is the CZ scheduled to be demolished in 2006?

Wilhouse-- Some more questions for you---what is the distance from the aqua tunnel to where the elf fountain used to be?  Also--I am getting confused with the maps---where is the circular spout building on your map (post 134)?  That buillding is different than the aqua tunnel--correct?

the aqua tunnel is right next to the CZ entrance.  The distance from there to the elf fountain is maybe 100-150 feet max. I'm not sure what you mean by the circular spout building.  ON TOP of the aqua tunnel is a pond.  The back wall of this pond is a rock wall / waterfall where the return line to the pond comes out of.  The pond is part of the aqua tunnel, it is a big circulating pool.  They have built a kind of fence around the pond for safety, made out of bamboo.  You can see pictures of it in one of my posts. hope that helps. wilhouse

Yes, that helps.  Do you have any pictures of the entrance to the old CZ--whether old or current ones from your trips?  I understand where it is in the zoo but seeing some pictures of that area might help spark new ideas...

I looked and I dont have any good shots of the entrance. Next time I go. wilhouse

Was just looking at P8 again and noticed there are TWO larkspurs. The one I pointed out earlier (near the large globe) and one to the right of the rhinoceros' head:

did that logo exist in 1982? wilhouse

I'm pretty sure these are nothing more than the artist's rendition of the appropriate "birth flower" for this picture's month. Larkspur is July's flower: hxxp://www.shgresources.com/gems/birthflowers/

in my opion (given im just an novice at this) i think you should concentrate on the origin of the larkspur to find out were it is commonly grown and if you look at the bottom of the piller with the sphere on the top you see an image it looks like some sort of small tree dwelling animal i have been trying to figure out what it is it kinda looks like some sort of bird, also the one stone in the front of the image has a crack in it with 5 marks going through it it also might be a clue but like i said im just a novice to this but its a thought!

seek, take a look at the photos I posted and see if you have any suggestions. I'm open!! wilhouse

I've tried reading from post one on this thread till now, and maybe I missed it, but has anyone confirmed what the star at the top of the image was?  I'm going to touch on symbols again, (until someone comes to Jersey and beats me up).  If this was talked about before, please excuse me.  Look at this symbol, and read where it talks about locamotives. hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/26/268.html Center of a train wheels.

no real confirmers of the star, but how about:  star of texas, the train has a star on the engine, the children's zoo area has the cross in the middle like the star. wilhouse

Most of the pics posted a year or two ago (or three) are no longer there.  I would really like to see the cross/star thing in the kids area.  The star in image8 is strange.  Ok, what isn't.. But this has a circle around it and not a true star with the five points in it. Image2 has the five pointer indicating military Fort Sumpter.  Wouldn't the Texas Lone star be the same?  If I were to draw a picture of a train, the wheels would look just like that- minus the cross of course.  Unless.... it was moving.  I think it is key, because of the way it is presented.  As a rail Car Inspector, maybe the wheel just sticks out.  I look at them everyday. Anyway, I'll investigate it further. Just a different point of view to throw in.  Heaven knows you've got to be exhausted Wilhouse.

Heck, wilhouse, I might even fly out and join you this fall if my teaching schedule permits it.

take a look at this overhead map.  look at the middle where the 4 contact areas marked LA, NA, Africa, Asia meet.  circle with a cross in the middle. I will post the date we're going to dig well in advance.  I will clear it with the zoo director if people want to come help dig through the spoils. wilhouse

Keep an eye out for any manhole covers.  One just might match the star.

there are manhole covers there. they mostly have the Texas star on them, but I'll check it out. wilhouse

Have there been any conjectures about the squiggly, cursive-looking character to the left of the big ball on top of the column? Other parts of the trees contain the numbers 30, 95, and 96 (latitudes / longitudes for Houston), but what is that thing? A lowercase "y"? Part of a capital "G"? I wonder if it might be helpful to see the original painting, and not just the part that was cropped for the book.

there are several things in the tree that I can't identify... wilhouse

oh my goodness. this is fascinating. i just spent my entire day reading this post about image 8. it's amazing. i live in houston too and it intrigues me that there is something out of the ordinary here. i know i'm a novice but if you do set a date for the dig, i'd like to help! good luck, wilhouse, i'm sure you'll be able to crack this one!

intrigued wrote:: Yes, that helps.  Do you have any pictures of the entrance to the old CZ--whether old or current ones from your trips?  I understand where it is in the zoo but seeing some pictures of that area might help spark new ideas... Wilhouse--Any luck getting a picture like this?  Is the aquatunnel visible through the entrance?

I emailed FB some shots that might help.  The aqua tunnel entrance is just past the CZ entrance (there's two entrances to the CZ, one on each side of the aqua tunnel. There's two entrances to the aquatunnel, one on each side of it.) Either entrance to the tunnel can be seen from it's entrance to the CZ, as it's probably only about 5 feet away. wilhouse

btw, if anyone can narrow down the location to a foot or so, I will go out and dig that foot up that day, and the locator will receive a beautiful gift for their contribution (potentially part of the crushed casque!!) wilhouse

Posted for wilhouse. More on the way... I can provide greater detail for other parts of the upper photo as well, if anyone is interested.

More pictures from wilhouse... Entrance is on the left:

A shot of a tree whose leaves look like those in the Image 8: A shot of the aquatunnel entrance, that can be seen from the CZ entrance:

FB - much thanks. more good karma for you wilhouse

To tie the verse in with the image, the bottom center cross hatch pattern is the exact same pattern used to denote the children's train path in the park. The curved shape denotes that the jewel is closest to the following station in the park (map item 15) "A whistle sounds" This would put the burial site in a different spot than the children's zoo. hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/directions.html Blow up the map and find # 15 in B-2. See the lengend for the train.

Tron, while I completely agree that one could make the position you have, there are a couple of points to note: - #15 is the main train station.  not one other confirmer from the image is out there. also, it would be difficult to dig there, as that is a completely open, public area.  however, it is not impossible.  where one would dig is beyone me. - the train station has been completely overhauled. if it was there, it might not be any more. - the steps to the auditorium look just like train tracks when viewed from the angle of the image. wilhouse

Wilhouse- JUst giving you all available information. I did not mean to suggest that the site was outside the zoo boundaries, but close enough to the train station in relation to the other landmarks. You own this solve, no one knows the area better, we all want to make this next dig your last. *somewhere to dig*

Tron, please, never stop giving suggestions. and truthfully, so many people have contributed time and thoughts to this dig, while I am merely the vessel. well, a participating vessel anyways. wilhouse

Egbert wrote:: There is apparently something which may be a modern art sculpture on the right side of the picture, disguised to look like a sand dune, I guess.  It would be nice if that sculpture was somewhere around Hermann Park. There is also something next to the column with the camel on it.  A large sundial?  Any ideas?  Boy, that highres pic feature would come in handy here...... (hint, hint) As for the stone floor, good catch on the lines resembling RR tracks.  But what about that one by itself in the lower left?  hmmm.  Also, if you notice, there is a clear demarcation of gray stones (the genie side) from the tan stones.  Perhaps this is some geographic outline? This is from one of the original posts on this thread.  Wilhouse, in preparation for the final dig, it may be useful to revisit everything that anyone has brought up regarding this image --- perhaps there is a clue which has been forgotten or not pursued.  There are a few things here for which I do not recall we ever came up with answers: 1.  The gray vs. tan stones. 2.  The split stone in the lower left. 3.  The sculpture-thing which is made to look like the side of a sand dune. 4.  The sundial-thing near the camel. One or more of these items may point to a part of Herrmann Park.  Anyone?

The sculpture thing behind the Rhino, looks a lot in shape like the pen numbered '19' from the 1982 map. To orient yourselves, the rhinos were(are) in pen '29' and the camels were(are) in pen '22'. If the llamsas were housed in pen '3' then this would be the correct orientation for the casque. I will try and post the image, but I took it from Wilhouse's photos of 2004 visit. hxxp://share.dell.shutterfly.com/action ... fa4bd&pg=2

Making another comparison to the current map of the zoo, this orientation puts you in front of the snow leopards. - falls gentle in the december night The small cat exhibit. Can not tell what was in the furtherest right (east) pen of number 5 back in 1982.

And making another review of this map from 1982, why would there be a big distinction in the colors of green used. Most used is the light, seafoam green - proabably denoting open spaces. But there is a deliberate attempt to sperate other things using a much darker forest green. Could this explain the image's use of different colored light and dark squares?

When does the back hoe get fired up?

August time frame wilhouse

Heard from the zoo director today.  He says it will be September. We have the backhoe and an operator.  Probably make one or two trips between now and then to put together a plan. wilhouse

That is good news, wilhouse! By the way, I think we're probably looking for something like this, only 8" to 9" on a side, no hinges, held together by sealant of some sort, and probably a little thicker. What do you think, Eg? You and Siskel are the only ones here who have actually seen one of these thingamabobs.

Yes, that's it.  Just a plain box, clear on each side, with white "caulking" on each seam.  If you are probing, don't probe too forcefully, or you may break it.

yeah, my guess is, if I find it, it'll be in pieces by the time I am done... wilhouse

Fenix my friend I have always valued your opinions and comments, as I have everyone on this board.  I have done a lot of soul searching about all this. I hate it that the spot I think it is in is fairly open.  I hate it that some of the verse confirmers are not there.  But the image is an identical match. I know the exact spot he was standing in when he imagined the image. If the image is not merely represetative, but is a "map" to the treasure location, then it is in the dirt by the party room.  If the image is merely "representational" then I can't pinpoint it, and it will be lost.  Give me some ideas and I will do the best I can to get the backhoe to dig in those areas. wilhouse 1.  I don't believe Brownie is the spout.  If you are looking back from treasure's ground you have passed the spout.  The positioning of Brownie at the time would make it extremely difficult to pass him, be in a digging locale and still be able to see him. I don't agree:  in order to get to where I think the treasure is you go right by Brownie.  it's about 20 feet away, so if you're at the Party Room, you would "look back" to see him. 2.  The areas you are digging are not secluded enough.  Egbert mentioned this again recently.  I know the director says it is possible someone could climb in at night or get away with digging because of the chaos of construction I still find it highly unlikely that BP would have done either. look, it's either in the CZ or not in the CZ.  There's nowhere "secluded" in the CZ. It's all open.  But the backside, where I am, is not near the entrance, so you would be completely unseen from the zoo proper if the CZ was closed.  Do I like it? no. Is it possible? yes. no one has given me a better idea or option. BTW, I believe that neither the Milwaukee nor Florida areas are secluded at all. They are right in the open. Where does this lead?  I have a feeling the spout may just be the one that shoots high into the air from the reflection pond(is that correct?).  I imagine you can look back and see this from most anywhere. the reflection pond spout is over 1/4 mile away from the CZ, maybe farther. you can't see it from anywhere in the zoo except the very entrance.  the spout could be at the aquatunnel, but even that is hard to see unless you are right next to it. As for the location, what would have been behind the auditorium?  How about between the concessions and the nursery?  East of Africa and Asia? there's essentially only concrete behind the auditorium. but behind the auditorium, your view is completely blocked off, so there's absolutely no spout to be seen.  yes, there's dirt areas east of africa / asia  and between the concessions and the nursery.  I have dug in all those places, and yes, it could still be there in one those spots. But those spots are LESS secluded and more easily seen from the CZ entrance and zoo proper. The last question I have is how are the globe lights that are on poles fixed into the ground?  Is there a base?  If so are some cement? all but two light poles have always been in concrete. None of them have bases, just poles in the ground. One of them is in a dirt area to the east of the auditorium, which we have dug up partly and hope to finish with the backhoe.  The other is by the nursery, and is now covered with asphalt that was poured for a handicapped ramp up to the nursery.  It could possibly be under there.

wilhouse wrote:: But the image is an identical match. I know the exact spot he was standing in when he imagined the image. Just another thought......  "if" the image is the exact representation that you have mentioned....so exact that you know where BP was standing....  Maybe this is just a possible confirmer to where to BEGIN.  What happens if you walk forward "thru" the image?  Is there a possible burial site there?  Is there anything else (either P or V related) in that area? Just more thoughts....

Fox, I find it ironic that the verse takes you the other way. Starting in Herman Park, going through the zoo, into the CZ and then I lose the confirmers. wilhouse

Thanks for addressing my doubts.  I was a bit misinformed about a few things.  I do appreciate you clearing that up. only too glad to help Are you using the picture as the way of pinpointing the burial spot now? yes I do admit that I like this because of how oddly placed the jewel seems to be in the picture.  You know I have always felt this photo was a scaled down representation of the zoo itself. it took me a long time, maybe a year, to realize this. partly because Brownie is no longer at this site, partly because the second pole is not there, and finally because it took DocLove to notice that if you stand in a specific spot the globe on the party room looks like it is on the pole The only thing I have left to add at this point is if your spot is off we need to find the most secluded areas of the childrens zoo back in '82.  Screw the verse and the pic.  If it was fairly wide open there had to be a few area behind a pen or perhaps somewhere in one of the quadrants that would put you out of immediate view. the most secluded spots are not dirt. they are mostly pebble base concrete.  the picture I posted of the lantern in the center of the CZ shows how lush the vegetation was.  I have probably spent upwards of 40 hours digging in the zoo. I am not kidding. Something tells me seeing the surroundings in real life gives a much better feel for what we are looking at here.  I wish I could hop a plane just to have a better understanding.  My fingers are still crossed for you, I just want to make sure you have crossed all of your t's. I'll try to take some digital videos next time I go and post them. Maybe that will help. wilhouse

Wilhouse, If you take overlapping photos (in a circle) I would be happy to combine them into a 360º virtual tour.  A video would be great and would certainly cover more areas, but I thought I would offer anyway.  12 to 20 photos (overlapping about 15%) would be enough.

bclews, I probably have enough for that now, however, the problem is that the CZ is discontinuous, because it is broken into pieces, the pieces being the contact areas, so you could not just take pictures in a circle and have them make sense. I plan to go back in a couple of weeks, I'll take a bunch of pictures and videos and we can see what is best. thanks for the offer, it might work out for specific areas. wilhouse

These are posted for wilhouse. I'll let him provide captions, but I have a question: In the first photo we see a black pipe end (?) projecting from one of the dirt circles. Was that there in 1982? If not, that means there must have been excavation between then and now. I find that troubling.

FB, I hate to be picky but I was kind of hoping these would go in the GPR thread.  Also, in the top picture, the right side is cut off. that is the part I was most wanting to show - it has the GPR device. If it didn't come out, let me know. It's the big red thing. You drag it around over the areas you want to search. To answer your question, I have to stop laughing first, I am sorry. The black "pipe" is an upside down plant pot, the type you get from home depot that plants are in.  We put it there because the hole we dug was so deep, that we were afraid people would hurt themselves if they stepped in it, and I was too tired to put the dirt back in. So I overturned a plant pot and stuck it in the hole!!! the lower picture has the computer on the stand that you use to record data from the GPR.  The other thing on the cart is the battery. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: ...Also, in the top picture, the right side is cut off. that is the part I was most wanting to show - it has the GPR device. If it didn't come out, let me know. It's the big red thing. You drag it around over the areas you want to search. It's there.  Go to the bottom of that post and use the scroll bar to scroll to the right.

Unknown: FB, I hate to be picky but I was kind of hoping these would go in the GPR thread.  Also, in the top picture, the right side is cut off. that is the part I was most wanting to show - it has the GPR device. If it didn't come out, let me know. It's the big red thing. You drag it around over the areas you want to search. Unknown: To answer your question, I have to stop laughing first, I am sorry. The black "pipe" is an upside down plant pot, the type you get from home depot that plants are in.  We put it there because the hole we dug was so deep, that we were afraid people would hurt themselves if they stepped in it, and I was too tired to put the dirt back in. So I overturned a plant pot and stuck it in the hole!!! One could scroll right, but it was easy for me to simply resize them (see above). I'll also add these to the GPR thread. Ah! That is good news. An unmolested casque site (maybe!).

forest_blight wrote:: One could scroll right, but it was easy for me to simply resize them (see above). I'll also add these to the GPR thread. Well, I had no scroll bar on the bottom of my screen, and could not for the life of me see the whole picture, so I appreciate the resizing!! wilhouse

the other side of the fence are the buildings. you are looking at the auditorium, and to the center is some exhibits with nothing in them any more. the cart is right in the middle of the 4 areas.  inside the fences are the contact areas.  the contact area has a special clay layer, the zoo director tells me, that is as hard as rock so the animals couldn't dig their way out. it is like asphalt, but looks like dirt.  I know more about zoos than I ever thought I would. so no, inside the contact areas is out of the question in terms of burying the casque. wilhouse

Hello all, I have been studying image 8 for quit some time now and have recently come up with an idea. I know most people believe that Herman park is the site for this but I have come up with another location that matches the picture quite well......have not seen this mentioned but I may have missed it. Tranquility Park, Downtown Houston. built in 1979 in honor of the Apollo 11 moon landing. Below is an image from Google Earth, I have circled the 6 columns in red that are there for sure and one in blue that could be one making a total of 7 just like image 8 I have searched the web for pictures and the only ones I found show only 3 columns, after looking at Google Earth I realized there are at least 6. The columns represent rockets that are actually fountains (water runs down them) I have other theories but wanted to see what everyone thinks.

what do you make of the rhino and camel? wilhouse

In the spirit of 'mill+walk+key' for image 10, how about hewn+stone = Houston for image 8?

adj 1: cut down with an ax; "a hewn oak" 2: cut or shaped with hard blows of a heavy cutting instrument like an ax or chisel; "a house built of hewn logs"; "rough-hewn stone"; "a path hewn through the underbrush" v. intr. To make or shape with or as if with an ax: hew a path through the underbrush. To cut down with an ax; fell: hew an oak. To strike or cut; cleave. To cut something by repeated blows, as of an ax. To adhere or conform strictly; hold: hew to the line. lots of stone. where's the hewn? wilhouse

The camel and rhino dont make sense to me no matter how hard I try.........my other ideas are too far out there......at the time the position and number of the columns really looked like a good match but nothing else really fits. Now....if it were an elephant instead of a camel I would have something to say........elephant + rhino =

wilhouse wrote:: lots of stone. where's the hewn? I was thinking of the phrase 'rough-hewn stone'. hxxp://www.thefreedictionary.com/hewn

Hey, Fenix, I checked out that page, it seems she started in the zoo in the late 90's.  Not sure she could be of any help, but I'll contact her anyways. thx wilhouse

mobhit, the area you are posting is where I first started looking for the casque.  You are slowly but surely repeating 2 years worth of investigating here in Houston. If you have not done so, please read my back posts on both image 8 and verse 1.  What you will find is that the poles you have shown are totem poles that exist in the children's zoo.  There's no need to go looking for them elsewhere. The statue area of Hermann Park has been dug up and replanted, rebricked and laid with concrete. If it's there, it's under concrete now. The  CZ is due to be demolished in about a month. Either I will find it then, or not at all. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: If you have not done so, please read my back posts on both image 8 and verse 1.  What you will find is that the poles you have shown are totem poles that exist in the children's zoo. There's no need to go looking for them elsewhere. wilhouse wilhouse My apologies for posting about the Sam Houston statue, I missed the post on the verse...read mostly on the image post. However I do take offense on the Tranquility park issue......although I agree that Herman park seems to be a good match, that does not make it the ONLY possible site, until the casque is found I believe all possibilities should be explored, I posted the Tranquility park picture because I had not seen it posted and it does match the picture quite well. As with other possible casque locations there seems to be many different ideas as to where to look, I was only trying to help by posting an idea......but it seems you have already figured out the location to this casque so no further ideas should be posted unless they pertain to Herman park. Again, sorry about the Sam Houston picture repeat that I deleted and I hope you do find the casque in Herman park........but other ideas dont hurt, isnt this what the forum is all about?

mobhit, look, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from creative thinking.  If you'll read back, you'll see lots of other ideas besides Hermann Park, and I don't typically try to stop anyone from exploring. If you are totally convinced it is tranquility park, great, work it. But the verse says to start at the 982. Where is the 982?  You have to put everything together. Verse and image. If you can make a verse fit tranquility park, and you have good correspondence between the image and the location, I say go for it. You don't need my approval for anything!! wilhouse

And let's not forget that BP actually confirmed that the Houston CZ is the proper location to dig. Besides actually unearthing a casque, that's about as certain as you can get.

wilhouse, Point taken, I too agree that Herman park is almost certainly the spot, at the time I spotted all the columns and then went back through the older post and realized it had not been mentioned I posted the picture hurriedly without really giving any of the verses any thought.....afterward while trying to get a verse to fit I realized I couldnt get it to work but maybe a person such as yourself could have some luck.... I threw it out there hoping...........I took your post wrong.......sorry!! I hope you find the casque!

forest_blight wrote:: And let's not forget that BP actually confirmed that the Houston CZ is the proper location to dig. Besides actually unearthing a casque, that's about as certain as you can get. well, yes, that is true.  But that sneaky guy also said that St. Louis was correct, and that might be St. Louis in Montreal!! wilhouse

Good point! Nothing for granted.

mobhit wrote:: I threw it out there hoping...........I took your post wrong.......sorry!! no need to apologize! you were doing what any of us do here, try to solve the puzzle. as long as you don't claim that you've found a casque when you haven't, say anything you want! I just don't want people to spend their valuable time looking for something that's probably not there, when there is still so much to do! wilhouse

Everyone, Tank and I are going to the zoo on Friday.  It might be our last trip prior to the bulldozing.  One last look around, take some pictures and maybe poke around some places with our spikes. Tank has a digital video camera, I have my digital camera. Does anyone have any special requests, specific areas they wanted recorded, or spots that they want poked or prodded? Let me know before Friday. wilhouse

Special Request:  a photo of you and the casque.

Wilhouse, just take as many pictures as your camera can hold, even of sites you may not think are relevant. Take extra memory cards with you if you have to. I have learned over and over that I overlook important things in my own photographs, and at this late stage it can't hurt to have more pictures. For myself, I request complete photographic documentation of the aquatunnel and the immediate surrounding area. And yes, a picture of you with the casque would appreciated. Do that for us, will you?

forest_blight wrote:: And yes, a picture of you with the casque would appreciated. Do that for us, will you? Unfortunately, probably not this time.  but you never know. every trip is exciting!!  even after 3 years of trips. wilhouse

You probably already tried this before.  However, if you haven't, just sit down in the zoo with the verse, and think about each line.  Every line has a meaning.

that's a good suggestion and we will do that wilhouse

& if that doesnt work...... tear up your book into tiny pieces while screaming "I'm mad as h*!! and I dont care who knows it" and go willy nilly with your trusty ground penetrating spike.  Please be careful of all water mains and electrical conduits.

except for the ripping up the book part, I've done the rest several times!!! wilhouse

Suggestion--you may want to get the GPS coordinates for some of the more important CZ locations before they are gone.

Hi Wilhouse I expect you have already checked the newspapers for the time the zoo first opened and when the book was first published for photos and things like that. What exactly did Byron say to you. And if all else fails take a metal detector with you. Louise

Louise, there's just too much to repeat. You'll need to go spend some time on the Verse 1 / Image 8 threads. I have posted everything Preiss said to me there. Let me just say, even if I knew with 100% fact that it was there, it still might not be possible to find...but I hold out hope! wilhouse ps., I will bring my gps.

Hey Everyone. Tank (from tweleve) and I just got back from a morning at the zoo.  They were happy to see us!! We spent an hour with the zoo directory and the head of horticulture.  He is the one who drives the dozer. We scouted the area and took pictures. Tank took digital videos, which he is going to edit and we'll post.  I'll post the pics later. They have agreed to dig up most of the dirt around the party room for us. He doesn't think it will take more than an hour or two.  The plan is still to do it in September some time, probably late Sept. I'll post some of my thoughts later as I recover. It was hot as usual.  No digging, the ground was just too hard. wilhouse

I still cant believe Wilhouse got someone to bulldoze the entire park for him in search of a small ceramic casque. You are my hero

Wilhouse, you ARE the man! You said the zoo people were happy to see you.  Did they "get into" the hunt?  Did they have any suggestions, input?  You obviously did this the right way, talking to authorities, etc.  Even if the casque isn't found, I would label this successful.  Congratulations. Okie

Wilhouse- Ask them when they are done there, if they would be willing to do the same thing to a National Park in North Carolina? (Patience is the key, right?)

it's funny, but they want this thing found as much as I do. The zoo director and I spent about an hour going through the image, verse and all the clues with the chief of horticulture, knowing he could completely veto the whole thing. But at the end of it he said "I'll do whatever you want to support you in this." I told the zoo director to go see him privately, after we leave, to find out if he thinks we're nuts or not. On the other hand, even if he does, as long as he dozes for us, I don't care... Pictures as soon as I can. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: I told the zoo director to go see him privately, after we leave, to find out if he thinks we're nuts or not. On the other hand, even if he does, as long as he dozes for us, I don't care.. wilhouse I wish BP was here to see how diligent you and everyone else is about this hunt...

boogieman wrote:: I wish BP was here to see how diligent you and everyone else is about this hunt... he is Boogie, he is... wilhouse

ok, here's a link to the album for the pictures I took the other day at the zoo.  Tank has the video and he's going to parcel it up into smaller bits for viewing and put them on UTube. enjoy. wilhouse hxxp://share.dell.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8IZM27Nm0bMR6

Thanks for the pix Wilhouse.  One thing I noticed was that, unlike many of our other theories, they sure arent lacking in potential hiding places....lots of green and foliage. speaking of foilage, another thing that caught my eye was the numerous small trees about the area....they sure reminded me of the tree in this P.  & in the 1st ( I believe) photo inside of the tunnel, there is a leaf that looks like it could have fallen from our P's tree. Lastly...why the concentration of pix of the area surrounding the party house?  Is the the most logical dig site?  Now....just how many pillars are around that party house?  Seven?

Fox, the party house is the only spot in the CZ where the smooth columns are.  The only other potential for those columns are the light posts, but the options for light posts in or by dirt are minimal (read that as one). I didn't count how many poles there are around the party bldg, I should be able to figure it out with photos. I took so many shots of the party room because that is where I plan to doze first and I needed some shots in order to make a plan on where to start. There are trees in the CZ that match the leaves in the image. I think I have posted them previously. wilhouse

So, any news on the big dig, Wilhouse?

hey Eg, just that it is soon, probably near the end of september. We are taking the pictures posted and laying grids on top of them.  This will give us some order in what we are doing. the plan is to dig an area roughly parallel to the party room about 3-4 feet wide 2 feet deep.  we are told this should take about an hour doing it carefully, looking out for plastic shards. if we don't have any luck there, we will move to behind the party house and work some there. suggestions are welcome. wilhouse

Isn't today the zoo gets a face lift?

I helped give the zoo a face lift yesterday. I, along with the zoo director and the chief of horticulture, bulldozed a 3 foot deep by 6 feet wide strip along the party house. Obviously, we didn't find anything or else you would have heard. I'll post photos asap. have to work on the next step. wilhouse

The secret will probably be taking a back seat for a while for another secret, but just wanted to know if more unearthing in Houston is being planned?

all I can say is I hope so, but I have not been told. wilhouse

for those of you who like heavy equipment, here are some shots of the dig at the zoo. we did about 1/2 of what I'd like to do, which is finish off the area around the front of the party room.  we did do a 3 foot by 6 foot wide trench around the front of it. hxxp://share.dell.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8IZM27Nm0bMSU wilhouse

I'd guess that the burial site is immediately under the location where you piled the dirt. OK, just kidding, but that's kinda the nature of things, isn't it? Pine

well, of course we piled the dirt where we expect to dig next!! wilhouse

I feel like we are so close to the Houston casque, Willhouse, couldn't you go to the park and just follow the verse, and try and look for 4 things that look exactly alike? (small split three winged and slight) That's what I did to figure out the Milwaukee verse, just follow it, and if paces are involved remember THEY VARY!!!!!

Reg- This is an instance where things have changed over time and some referecnes have moved or are no longer there. I am sure that Wilhouse can take any emotion that one of us on the board feels and replicate it ten-fold.

reg, I know it's hard to believe, but I have spent hundreds of hours in herman park and the zoo.  honestly, all I can say is look at the photos i've posted and see for yourself. you can't follow what's not there... wilhouse

I've looked but didn't find this.  Have you noticed these?

boogie - I think we've all noticed the marks, but haven't been able to interpret them. I don't see the faces and fountain that you do.

Actually, it looks like the number 58 or 53.

I have blown that photo up there and looked at those chicken scratchings and I just am not sure it is anything at all. Maybe it is a map, if so, it's unclear. wilhouse

forest_blight wrote:: boogie - I think we've all noticed the marks, but haven't been able to interpret them. I don't see the faces and fountain that you do. I thought I saw a side view, or profile of the opened-mouth drinking fountain.  The bottom right of the column the juts out a little just above the jewel, is an arm with the hand adjusting eye glasses on the lower face.  The left hand and left eye.  I can't believe you can't see it.  The guy is even smiling!

there was a lion drinking fountain in the cz, but it was on the other side by the restrooms. wilhouse

what is the cz?

Childrens Zoo, Regulus.

Hey all, Just thought I would mention (to go along with the immigration theme) that Houston has a large Arab population(particulary Saudi) as it is home to the US headquarters of ARAMCO(the Saudi oil company) and Arab immigration into Houston would have started at least in the 70's. digger7

Hey all, This post covers multiple verses (1, 3, 7, 12) and multiple pictures (5, 6, 7, 8 ).  There doesn't seem to be just one thread that was appropriate for this kind of post so I just posted it in all 8 threads.  So if you have read this post once you don't have to read the other 7 as they are all the same. Socrates, Pindar, Apelles Free speech, couplet, birch To find casque’s destination (Verse 4) (Lines 10, 11, 12) The word birch rhymes with verse so I think the line is supposed to read FREE VERSE, COUPLET.  Now separate the initial letters of each couplet that rhymes from the initial letters of the free verse(i.e. the lines that don’t rhyme).  You can do this for all the verses(although some of them are all free verse with no lines that rhyme), however, for reasons that I will make clear below I think the only verses that matter here are Verses 1, 3, 7, and 12.  In all the verses below I have highlighted the lines that rhyme. I will start with Verse 12 as we already know the answer for that one. Where M and B are set in stone And to Congress, R is known L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks’ Treasure holder The end of ten by thirteen Is your clue Fence and fixture Central too For finding jewel casque Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. So you end up with: WABTICBH which when you rearrange the letters and use the B’s as blank spaces between the words you get: CHI B WA B T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the B’s - Chicago Water Tower.  As we all know this is the tower in Picture 5.  This also explains the use of the word Hush in the verse, BP needed a word that started with H and rhymed with Brush. On to Verse 1 Fortress north Cold as glass Friendship south Take your task To the number Nine eight two Through the wood No lion fears In the sky the water veers Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Falls gently In December night Looking back from treasure ground There’s the spout! A whistle sounds. So you end up with: NISPOILA which when you rearrange the letters and use the I’s as blank spaces between the words you get: NO I S I PLA or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the I’s – New Orleans Spanish Plaza.  And there is a Spanish Plaza in New Orleans. On to Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. This time use the letters that begin the free verse lines: INTANWWFYFAETL which when you rearrange the letters and use the extra WFA as blank spaces between the words you get: FT W WAYNE F LIN A T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the WFA – Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower.  And there is a Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Indiana built in 1929. And finally Verse 7 At stone wall’s door The air smells sweet Not far away High posts are three Education and Justice For all to see Sounds from the sky Near ace is high Running north, but first across In jewel’s direction Is an object Of Twain’s attention Giant Pole Giant step To the place The casque is kept. I first started anagramming this one using the same method of separating the letters that I used above and ended up with some wrong answers that wilhouse pointed out.  So I think for this one you anagram all the letters together: ATNHEFSNRIIOGGTT which when you rearrange the letters and use the G’s as blank spaces between the words you get HST G NATION G FRET or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the G’s – Houston National Forest.  This one didn’t anagram to my satisfaction as you end up with an extra I but there is a Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Now as cool as all that was this is the really cool part and the reason that I think that this particular solution only deals with the above 4 verses.  Going back to verse 4 and using the words Socrates, Pindar, Apelles, birch along with information that we already have from the pictures(i.e. the latitudes and longitudes) you can as BP put it, “wed one picture with one verse.” Birch = 5 letters, picture 5 we know is Chicago goes with verse 12 which gives us Chicago Water Tower. Apelles = 7 letters, picture 7 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is New Orleans and verse 1 gives us New Orleans Spanish Plaza. Socrates = 8 letters, picture 8 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is Houston and verse 7 gives us Sam Houston National Forest. (sort of) Pindar = 6 letters, by process of elimination picture 6 goes with verse 3 which gives us Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower. So to sum up. Verse 1 goes with Picture 7 and give us a starting location of Spanish Plaza in New Orleans Verse 3 goes with Picture 6 and gives us a starting location of Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Verse 7 goes with Picture 8 and gives us a starting location of Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Verse 12 goes with Picture 5 and gives us a starting location of the Water Tower in Chicago. Just some further thoughts that might not lead to anything but are rattling around in my head so I will throw them out for your consideration.  Two of the verses (9 and 11) are all free verse, nothing rhymes but there are two additional verses that do follow the free verse, couplet pattern. The first comes right before the pictures and second right after the pictures.  It is possible that some information is hidden in these two extra verses. Also if you like the idea of the number of the letters in a word indicating a picture(or a verse) then you might find this interesting.  There is only on significant instance of a one letter word in all of the verses(I know that there are various A’s in the verses but I said significant) and that is the v in verse 10.  In addition there is only one 12-letter word in all of the verses, remuneration.  I know that wonderstone’s is also 12 letters but I don’t count that one because you need to add the possessive s in order to get to 12. digger7

I don't understand why you think verse 4 is the key that allows you to match verse and picture and why verse 4 isn't just it's own clue. wilhouse

so this place with the totem poles is where the verse leads us?  hmmmm....  maybe the four alike things aren't gone.  since the image (as far as we know) shows something that is visible from the casque sight.  the totems.  is there even dirt in that area?  i believe that the whistle is the train, it makes sense.  i don't know. there's got to be something there. these things that are four alike could be huge!  or just tiny. -regulus

there are / were only three totems and unfortunately, they were in a straight line... wilhouse

wilhouse, in this map: hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/images/Hermann_Park_Map.pdf see that brown blob by #9, the zoo entrance could that be the brown blob in our image, behind and to the right of the rhino? and then if you draw a line from the brown blob to the jewel in the picture, wouldn't that take you to the George H. Hermann statue, #27? and see that water fountain is  straight ahead from the  statue (in the map) and the RR tracks are behind the fountain. "three Physical Description George H. Hermann is a life-size, three -part, cast bronze figurative sculpture standing on a trapezoidal concrete pedestal. The inscribed pedestal has polished pink granite faces and rests on top of a circular, polished granite base. or if it goes: "three winged and slight"---------maybe that water fountain has 3 tiers and is small and see that water fountain is right there to the right of the statue and the RR tracks (in the map). i have no idea what that water fountain looks like, but look at this: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/balzen/3160320/ what we take to be our strongest tower of delight"-----------Hermann statue (herman melville reference) "December night"--------straight ahead from the statue is the fountain (spout) and the RR tracks (whistle) ----- (in the map) ck i checked, it said the statue was erected there in 1981, lol wilhouse is there a better map i should be using? i know the blobs aren't exactly alike, but he wouldn't want it to be too easy. (he succeeded, lol) i hadn't read where anyone knew what that brown blob could be, have they? i'm not gonna let it die, wilhouse, lol, it's gotta be there for you! the picture is depicting 12 o'clock with the shadows, which goes with "december" or straight ahead

Slappy, I like your line of reasoning. But, that map is from way past 1982, more like the 90's, and the zoo entrance and the way the tracks are in it were not the way they were back in 82. Since I'm color blind, I can't really tell what blobs you are talking about, but I'm not sure it matters cause that zoo entrance was built later on. If you go look at some of the links I posted in verse 1 or image 8 you'll see a whole bunch of old maps and such.  If you can't find them let me know and I'll repost the links, cause the photos are still there. I checked out the statue and it's all concrete back there, no where to dig or hide anything... wilhouse

wilhouse, i'm going thru and trying to organize my notes and happened to wonder about the brownie at the zoo.  we already have a djinn in the picture, which is Personal ( whatever that means).  a brownie is Informational.  do you think it was just coincidental that there just happened to be a brownie at the zoo? i still like that mask for the hospital, lol.  i don't see any djinn in the book with a mask on.

Slappy, please find Brownie the Elf here: hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=732.420 He's conveniently located in a pool of water in the middle of the zoo. Clearly, Preiss used Brownie as a key marker as to where the casque was, as it originally was in the CZ. wilhouse

Wilhouse, I just had a thought.... The verse that says "in the center of four alike, small split three winged and slight" Could this refer to FENCES? Small , (self explanatory-not a high fence), Split (split rail) Three (of them) Winged (or Three-winged ) A "wing fence" is one that looks like this: and slight ? (Self explanatory--maybe shorter than usual--only one fence panel or something?) I've looked at your pics online, and I see a lot of different kinds of fences...and it just hit me that the verse might just be referring to them. I think you've about tried everything else, haven't you? Anyway, it's just an idea.

she, a good one too! I dug around many of the fences, but never got anywhere, obvioulsy.  I also thought about split rail fences and that sort of thing but I could never find 4 fences (or even 3) that fit the verse. wilhouse

Oh, poo. Durnitall. I thought I had it this time.

Wilhouse, Could you give a quick run down of the items/finds in image 8 that links this to Houston, I remember the texas map, the lat/lon, what other things were found in this image. Did you ever find something "iconic" that says Houston?

besides the map and the lat / long, that's about it. the rest are all locators inside the children's zoo. wilhouse

wilhouse, where is the carousel on the park map?  or was it there in 82?  (just wondering, because of the mention of "preceded by a circus like procession" in the guide, and jimerson's pink floyd "animals' album) is it still there?

the one that is there now was not there in 82. according to the maps I have there wasn't one then wilhouse

thanks wilhouse

Unknown: Could you give a quick run down of the items/finds in image 8 that links this to Houston, I remember the texas map, the lat/lon, what other things were found in this image. Did you ever find something "iconic" that says Houston? For me, Image 8 was conclusively linked to Houston when I put it side-by-side with the satellite image of Hermann Park in Houston, TX: hxxp://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=hermann+park,+houston&ie=UTF8&cd=1&sll=29.684486,-95.384574&sspn=0.181127,0.052897≪=29.719961,-95.391176&spn=0.006122,0.009613&t=k&z=17 Here’s what it looks like: Thanar

except that it didn't look like that in 82! wilhouse

Wilhouse, You’re right. It didn’t look like that in 1982. But how close did it look? - The Sam Houston Monument (and circular area around it) were erected at that location in 1925. - The Jesse H. Jones Reflection Pool was built in 1916, but was enlarged to 750’ by 80’ in the 1990s ( hxxp://www.wonarch.com/pdf/TXchronicle08.01.04.pdf ). - The Pioneer Memorial obelisk was built in 1936 and was moved to its current location in 2003 ( hxxp://www.texasexplorer.com/HermannPark.htm ). The pictures taken in the 1920s (from the pdf above and hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/Scardino_action_plan.pdf ) show that the circular area around the Monument and long north-south grassy area around the Reflection Pool were present. They aren’t nearly as well-defined (with a path cutting diagonally across the grassy area, etc), but they seem (to me at least) have about the same proportions as at present. I guess it is a bit hard to tell from these pictures, since they are from an angle, not vertical. The fact that the pool wasn’t enlarged in 1982 makes the similarity to Image 8 not as visually striking, since the match to the vertical column is no longer uniform and dark. So I’ll grant that it is not a conclusive link to the aerial view of 1982, which is what counts. I'd still love to see an actual aerial view from 1982 to compare it with Image 8 side-by-side. Thanar

hello folks, my book is on it's way. I hope you don't mind my thoughts on image 8. I have looked at it a lot and I still keep seeing Az. The camel is a spitting image of the one on Hi Jollys gravesite. The jewel made me think of Az fire agate. The person could be Hi Jolly or as he was named Hadji Ali. His grave is shaped like a pyramid (three sides?) Besides railroad tracks the ones without cross ties could be wagon wheel tracks. The globe made me think of the observitories. That's all I had, just wanted to share. I hope you all don't mind me posting, thanks goatlady

welcome goatlady

goatlady, of course we welcome your thoughts and hope you continue with us on this adventure. you might want to reread my posts on image 8 and verse 1 and see if maybe houston makes more sense. good luck to you. wilhouse

Thanks so much. W I am trying really hard to see Houston as a fit. Maybe when my book comes next week I will be able to see the pictures better. Biosphere in Oracle, petrified wood segments, Titan missile (wingless?) I think I'm doomed.

Don't worry goatlady....I think we are all doomed at the moment. Welcome to the hunt!  Is this the 1st time on these boards or have you been trying to catch up with the gazillion posts while awaiting your book?

Hi Fox. Are you sure there are only a gazillon? It felt like more. This is my first post here, but I have been trying to catch up for awhile. I was working on another mystery and have finished it, "The Whistle Pig". So now I wanted to delve into another mind bender. What was I thinking! At one time I think it was you that thought you saw An Az connection or did I get the name wrong? At any rate I think I will just have to try harder to see Houston. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I am hoping the book will be a big help!

hi goatlady!  don't count on the book helping, lol.  everyone says all you need is the image and the verses, which are all here if you need them (somewhere on this board) of course i am still trying to find connections between the fair folks and the treasures. lots of times i have thought, well maybe it's not houston (for example), but somehow i always come back to the places or cities others have found long time ago, ( not the treasures, just the locations). but, ya never know, we could be totally wrong.  good luck!

Unknown: I was working on another mystery and have finished it, "The Whistle Pig". Finished, as in... FOUND THE KEY?? Wow! I want to hear more.

Hello, F_B, finished as in I went as far as I could without getting to the key. I want to stand in front of a mirror and slap myself silly. I have written Millender but haven't recieved a reply. I understand where to look but the last step eludes me. So I will get back to it someday. Futher talk about the book might be better suited to the Whistle Pig topic. I know from the other board that you plan "to reign me in", and probably don't want me to post anything. I have stayed away from there. These people seem real nice, although there are some of the same people I just plan on going with what others are researching and adding my thoughts along the way. I don't have any concrete ideas about The Secret at all. My book won't be here until next week. I hope you aren't going to mind, have a good day, goatlady

I wanted to know if anyone else can see a profile of an animal face, possibly a zebra or giraffe in the negative space in the trees?  In the picture that Thanar recently posted it is on the right side of P8 which is next to an overhead view of the park.  If you look at the upper left side of the overhead view there are two roads that start to converge towards the edge of the picture.  Where those roads run off the picture is almost exactly at the snout of the animal I see in the trees.  The features of the animal are in a lighter shade of grey than the rest of the trees.  Another way of seeing it is if you look at the tip of the Rhino's horn there is a light colored leaf hanging down.  The light colored leaves above that form stripes on the neck of the animal.  Can anyone else see this or is it just me? Also, I wonder if anyone mentioned that the pillar with the camel is the only of the three that does not have a shadow or the blue aura highlighting the top.  Since the rhino was found easily I wonder is this more symbolic of something opposed to being an exact marker.

sam i see it, maybe refers to the zoo at the park

keep in mind that the photo posted above is how the area looks today. it did not look that way 5 years ago, besides in 1982. look at the links for the old photo's i've got posted on shutterfly to see what things looked like 25 years ago. wilhouse

that's interesting about the shadow, don't think i've ever heard that mentioned.

Thanks for the reminder Wilhouse, I was just using the overhead view as a way of identifying the figure in the trees.  It could be a llama if the ears weren't so round.  Maybe Snowflake and Pierre had rounder tipped ears than most llamas.

sam i hope i have posted in this jpg, what you see

You nailed it, thanks CW. Nice edit job.

looks like a bunny! wilhouse

Bunnies are nice. How about a jackrabbit? Some things I noticed, the outline of the state of Nevada is one block over from the right corner. The 95 could be county 95 which runs through Laughlin and Bullhead City Az then turns into US 95 going north to Las Vegas. Nevadas state flower is the sagebrush. That is a small tree or shrub and not a flower per say as the other pictures. Maybe that accounts for the foliage around the top.

I had another thought. What if that is not a water spout but a mushroom cloud. I see spooky looking faces in it. Nevada test site could explain that. The idiom "letting the genie out of the bottle" was used when they did nuclear testing. People used to stand and watch the clouds in Las Vegas.

goatlady, the key to this hunt is to tie the verse and photo together.  just finding stuff in the photos won't get you anywhere. I have tied verse 1 to this image.  verse 1 talks about the train at the zoo, and the CZ and landmarks around the zoo. the latitude and longitude in the photo, along with the image of texas in the stones, is what I've used to tie this picture to the verse. wilhouse

yea, I get that.

(...still working through these to get an overview...) Great research on the zoo, and it looks like BP was referring to it, though in a way, I'd prefer that he hadn't buried a casque there, aside from the fact that it's unrecoverable. A zoo doesn't really seem to fit the book's ethos, and the caged bird on P127 doesn't look too happy. So despite the landmarks, I'm hoping the picture's story might include but not end at the CZ. (I haven't seen his comments on this so I'm not sure how specific they were.) Lawrence of Arabia's Seven Pillars of Wisdom was mentioned briefly, and I'd have thought BP would have been aware of this. The preface reads: I loved you, so I drew these tides of men into my hands and wrote my will across the sky in stars To earn you [i]Freedom , the seven pillared worthy house that your eyes might be shining for me[/i] Freedom. The capitalisation in the litany phrase echoes the star theme. T he R uby out of A raby S carlet of desert sky at dawn ...then there's the globe-pole/lamp of this image, with the star above and the gem at its base. Lawrence is associated with Pole Hill , which also has astronomical links, being on the Greenwich meridian. The title of his book is from a rock formation in Wadi Rum. Reminds me of image 1, with the barred window in the mountain. Field Guide: "The Djinn Rummy originated in the Middle East". There's another wisdom connection for this image, via rubies - "for wisdom is better than rubies" (Proverbs). *** edit *** ...been looking at the San Jacinto Monument , a huge great tower with a star on the top, as a possible reference for the star / lamp post tower, and the "strongest tower of delight". (Stands near Houston, apparently the tallest monument tower in the world, or something.) There's a San Jacinto St you can follow North from Hermann Park, which crosses the river. I think someone suggested an aerial view for this line... In the sky the water veers Small of scale Step across ...but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere much.

Trust me, if  you don't think it's easy to dig at the zoo, try digging at the san jacinto monument.  Jail time for sure. wilhouse

Final miscellaneous thoughts on this pic then I'll move along... July, Julius Caesar. Originally the fifth month, Quintilus. Texas map in the dunes? Possible San Jacinto references apart from the star pole - San Jacinto = Saint Hyacinth ...known for levitation. In Greek legend, Hyacinth was killed when Zephyr (wind) and Apollo (sun) fought over him. Apollo and Larkspur are both associated with dolphins; hence Delphi and Delphinium. Temple of Apollo at Delphi: The San Jacinto Polona Parish Church in Camal-iniugan has the oldest bell in the Far East. Map showing Hermann Park & San Jacinto St. Ends up near University of Houston Downtown .

I like the dolphin idea. (Thinking about "There's the spout".) There's a reference here to the "antique Dolphin Fountain" in Lamar Park. hxxp://www.hydeparkunited.org/lamarpark/lamarparkad.pdf (See page 2). Gotta love the title of that leaflet, and Lamar has San Jacinto connections. Gives the address as 1400 Hyde Park Blvd at Waugh Drive, North of Hermann - presumably this thing. Are those little dolphins round the edge? Three winged and slight (Here's the map.) Heading straight up Montrose from the zoo gets you close. Climb Montrose - rose mountain - from the park... I think the "star pole" aligned with Montrose has previously been pointed out in this aerial view, and I reckon that's right.

The city completely redid that fountain area.  I watched some of it.  If it was there it's gone now. wilhouse

(Thanks wilhouse...)

Guys, instead of just trying to find stuff in the images that match real life, try and get the images and the verses together to match real life. For example, if we agree that verse 1 and image 8 match, if you start at the 928 engine in Hermann park (now across the street from Minutemaid ballpark btw) and work your way around.  There's nothing in the verse that would take you away from the park . wilhouse

Couple more thoughts on them Larkspur cetaceans. Flicking through the field guide, I noticed a dolphin reference under the Pentagorgon. Found a reference to the "Dolphin Fountains" on Main St, but I don't know where this is, or how long it's been there. Passing the Dolphin Fountains on Main I felt the first spats of the storm that was about to lash space-town. hxxp://soulmerlin.com/almanack/?cat=27 Is there / was there a dolphin area at the zoo...?

no dolphins. no water creatures except in the CZ in the aquatunnel. also I believe that fountain was recently built wilhouse

(A while back I wrote off to the Hyde Park United Civic Association , and they finally got back. Apparently the one in Lamar Park is still there, so I can still hang onto my dolphin theory for a bit... )

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (A while back I wrote off to the Hyde Park United Civic Association , and they finally got back. Apparently the one in Lamar Park is still there, so I can still hang onto my dolphin theory for a bit... ) Ha looking at the above site and clicking on the link 'Lamar Park - Hidden GEM' found this

you guys, this is what BP told wilhouse: " it would not be a waste of time to dig there, but I cannot make any guarantees whatsoever " right wilhouse?

Thanks Slappy - guess I need to read General Questions ...

Slappy, yes, that is exactly right. I emailed him several times about the location: ____________________ it might be there... bp, Byron, the children's zoo is being rennovated and bulldozed over. I only have a few months to find the casque. After that, if it is in the children's zoo, it will be destroyed and I will be heartbroken. Can you at least confirm whether I am in the right location or not? We found the original article on the casque found in chicago and noticed that you did originally advise the Chicago finders that they were right. If I am in the wrong location, then the clues to the casque are gone and the hunt is over anyways. Any information that you would be willing to give up would be greatly appreciated. wilhouse _______________________ then, in response to the photo that I sent him which showed the image 8 superimposed on the CZ: From: [email protected] To: wilhouse Subject: Re: A final plea before it's too late Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:43:38 EDT > it would not be a waste of time to dig there, but I cannot make any > guarantees whatsoever _____________________ This was the last email I received from him, as he passed away shortly afterwards. Let me be clear, BP and I conversed about many subjects.  I am an avid sci fi reader and I purchased many books he published.  I tried not to overload him on Secret stuff cause after Egbert found his cask he received hundreds of emails on the subject. I tried to make sure that I only emailed him sporadically about the secret. He told me once that I had the wrong location, when I was out by the fountains near the museum.  He told me several times that he couldn't tell me any more, just to later tell me I was close. His message that it would not be a waste of time to dig there was, in my humble opinion, as close as he would come to telling me I was right.  I say this because he had told me when I was wrong before. I still think it's there, but our opportunity to get it is small. wilhouse

Aha, OK. Thanks for explaining that. Incidentally, which puzzles offer the best hope of recovery, in your opinion...?

lol, any that you can figure out!! Honestly, I don't have a good answer for that. wilhouse

(I realise most people think brainstorming this one is unreasonably obstinate, but just had a flip through it anyway.  ;)) Maybe this puzzle is playing tricks with scale. Take your task To the number Nine eight two Start with a full-size train, the 982, at the park. Through the wood No lion fears In the sky the water veers Main (mane) St., leading to the fountain. Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost This shape was identified as a miniature railway track at the zoo... Considering the clues about scale and keeping perspective, and the full-size train at the start, we could continue down Hermann Drive to this green area with full-size columns, as opposed to the mini-columns in the zoo. (I initially thought this took you across full-size tracks, but it looks like these are too recent.) In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Falls gently In December night "What we take to be our strongest tower of delight, only stands at the caprice of the minutest event - the falling of a leaf" As the next lines are from Herman, maybe it's taking us further down Hermann Drive...eg to the Garden Centre. (Rings show fountain, columns, garden centre.) Looks like the garden centre dates from 1942: hxxp://www.houstonfederationgardenclubs.org/history.htm The centre of four alike...?

Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! A whistle sounds Circle round water girl statue by the back of the garden centre... View from the cross back to the garden centre and the "water girl" statue with the spout... Turn round to "look back from treasure ground"...the train whistle...? Possible match with this feature (five dividing lines)... Columns...mound...?

I was under the impression that herman park had basically been re-modeled, moved around / rebuilt. how do you ascertain what was there in 1982 vs now?

maltedfalcon wrote:: I was under the impression that herman park had basically been re-modeled, moved around / rebuilt. How do you ascertain what was there in 1982 vs now? I reckon all those landmarks were there in 1982. But if I found something promising, I'd ask...

I see, I was under the impression, parkinglots, fountains, landscaping (hills, paths, etc) had all been basically redesigned, removed and rebuilt. I know the train moved to a totally different spot.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (I realise most people think brainstorming this one is unreasonably obstinate.) Well, you may be right. The big train is pretty definitely associated with Hermann though, and the small one I'm not so worried about. I suspect that Main St was still Main St. But like I say, if I actually found somewhere I thought was a good place to dig, I'd research the theory to see if it was historically viable. In the meantime I'm just kicking stuff around. Disclaimer:

you have to go back and look at the map I posted from 1982.  The miniature train tracks were all moved post 1982.  You can't go by where they are now. Also, the elf that was in the CZ is definately a dead ringer for the djinn.  I do like your thought process though. ml

Unknown: The last project to be implemented before the war was the construction of the Houston Garden Center, a one‐story pavilion containing a meeting and exhibition hall. Designed by William Ward Watkin in 1938, the Garden Center was not constructed until 1941. It was located on Hermann Drive, on axis with La Branch Street, at the east end of the Botanical Garden. In front of the south elevation Hare and Hare laid out the Rose Garden. Thanks for the feedback ppl. Certain of the columns in the CZ are also a definite match, but I was interested in exploring the idea that the puzzle is referencing various small-scale things in the CZ as indicators of full-scale versions in the surrounds. For instance, one of the things that strikes me about the image is the division of the ground from tiled on the left, to plain on the right. There's a plain column standing in the tiled section, and a "tiled" column standing in the plain section. The small CZ pillars are "tiled", but the large pillars on Hermann are plain. Some of the pillars in the image are shown small, whereas others are shown large. Together with the big train, the miniature train, and references to scale and perspective in the verse, there seems to be some kind of theme here. The Garden Center is next to a golf course. Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Falls gently In December night Leaf...snow...white foliage...snowdrop...? Or, using the zoo's snowflake, another representation of one. Wonder what this is, and how old the sign is. ...or there's this star...(also visible in the top pic)...

are you suggesting it's near the garden center? wilhouse

The Ruby out of Araby Scarlet of desert sky at dawn ...yeah, I quite like it as the "center of four alike", and it seems that round the back of it you could see most of the things in the pic. The columns and water statue at the back of the center, the sandy "dunes" of the golf course, and the star and fishbone shapes if they were there at the time. I guess my favourite spot would be somewhere by the fence near this fishbone shape, beside the golf course for Araby-ness. I see the square the genie is standing on as the fishbone square. Depends how recent these things are though.

i like the area of the mecom fountain and colonnade.  ( i hope it's still there, the one with the columns)if you change the perspective and put all the columns standing up like where you would have to be to see the camels in the zoo, or the train tracks stand where  the columns  would be if you were standing there the smaller ones by the golf course, it seems to me, well, the smallest one is by that blob that i don't know what it is supposed to be i like that shape in the parking lot whiterabbit, you can even use the block the genie is on for the big square

The "strongest tower" reminds me of the rhino. The point by the fishbone is at this tip of the golf course, and I was wondering about the rhino horn as a match. The rhino head has two larkspur leaves just below it. Spur = spike.

if i recall right, the quote that comes from, he was talking about his parents or ...........maybe it was water, that was why i liked the colonnaded mecom

slappybuns wrote:: if i recall right, the quote that comes from, he was talking about his parents Unknown: But is life, indeed, a thing for all infidel levities, and we, its misdeemed beneficiaries, so utterly fools and infatuate, that what we take to be our strongest tower of delight, only stands at the caprice of the minutest event -- the falling of a leaf, the hearing of a voice, or the receipt of one little bit of paper scratched over with a few small characters by a sharpened feather? Are we so entirely insecure, that that casket, wherein we have placed our holiest and most final joy, and which we have secured by a lock of infinite deftness; can that casket be picked and desecrated at the merest stranger's touch, when we think that we alone hold the only and chosen key? (...seems to be talking about the desecration of the shrine of his memory of his father or something...) hxxp://arthursclassicnovels.com/melville/pierre10.html

It seems to me he was making sure you knew you were in Hermann Park.  Remember that there was no internet at the time and it would be impossible to find that quote unless you were familiar with Mellvile, and honestly, Pierre is not one of his more popular books.  A cosmic joke by Preiss wilhouse

Also, WR, I don't want to discourage you, but Wilhouse's solution to this hunt is really well-supported by his research. Obviously, there's no casque to prove out the efforts of his work -- since the CZ obviously changed so much in the intervening years, and was later completely remodeled -- but when you look at details like the aqua tunnel ("in the sky the water veers"), the evidence is as persuasive as it gets.

thanks!  I personally think the elf really was the thing that did it for me. The cap on the elf fountain is exactly the same as the cap on the djinn. wilhouse

Well get out there and dig it up Wilhouse!!!! I gathered together a dig team for you......

Nice Fox.  I actually did have one thought of where it could be that I did not look.  There is a space between the original fence and the "new" fence (circa 1980's) that has remained undisturbed all these years. I know that if Preiss snuck in that back gate and buried it right by the fence he'd never been seen. The back gate was open till very late at night and sometimes wasn't shut at all. You could still see the elf fountain from there and it's in the area where all the other clues fit.  There's only one small area where you can see the fountain so there's not a lot of digging needed. I asked the zoo director if that area was owned by the new park exhibit or by the zoo and he thought the zoo still owned it, which means he could me permission to dig there... stay tuned. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: It seems to me he was making sure you knew you were in Hermann Park.  Remember that there was no internet at the time and it would be impossible to find that quote unless you were familiar with Mellvile, and honestly, Pierre is not one of his more popular books.  A cosmic joke by Preiss I'm not sure what you mean...are you saying that the quote is just a clue for Herman/Hermann...? To connect the quote with Herman, you'd have to know about the book, and you could then find out what the quote was about. Given the obscurity of these quotes, I'm inclined to think that there's a clue in the actual quoted text, but that a knowledge of its source may also provide some kind of lead.

I just mean that discoving where the quote came from is a positive ID for Hermann park.  How you would come across it I have no idea. wilhouse

I agree with Wilhouse about the quotes. This one, the one from Treasure Island and the one from Sarmiento are, IMHO, a publisher's little "inside joke" leading you to a general location, but not more than that. I think you're a great researcher, WR, but you overcomplicate things sometimes.

Well, I'd be quite happy to accept the quote as a "Herman" pointer - the area I'm talking about is in the middle of the place, on Hermann Park Drive, by Hermann Park Golf Course. (I'm not disputing the visual matches in the CZ. I just think they might be involved in a different way.) Still wondering about the tiled/plain division...maybe the layout of blocks in the area... Two rows of eleven tiles on the left of the image...maybe the columns at the back are saying 11 of something...?

Another quick thought... Instead of going round by the fountains, maybe the trail could simply go from, or through, the zoo, up Hermann Park Drive. The sloping stone might represent a post of the Miller Centre...or just the whole thing... This shows the positions of the 'pole', the Miller Centre post, and the curve beside the golf course where the fishbone is. That would put the focus between the camel and the rhino...these were posts at the CZ, weren't they...? Does anything spring to mind about what was between them...? Or maybe, would appear between them from a certain angle...? Like I say, I'm not against the CZ, I'm just trying to work it differently...scale it up, use it to pinpoint a spot in the wider world. Any chance of some pics of this area just to humour me...?  ;)

A gem at the base of a pillar... This is just by that "snowdrop" sign. You remember those two rows of 11 tiles with a pole at the end...? How about taking the 11th pole down this fence, with its rows of two panels. Or just the left end of the row. There's even a mark on the right-end tile to show the corner. Sounds like a fun day out.

Where exactly is this? and what snowdrop sign? wilhouse ps, be sure to use the verse in conjunction with the image!

It's the fence between the golf course and the garden center. If you look back over the last couple of pages from halfway down P21 you'll see pics showing the location and a possible verse walkthrough, though I'm now more interested in that final spot than the way I originally interpreted the verse. "In the center" could get you there from above at the colonnade, or maybe below from the zoo.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: A gem at the base of a pillar... My memory is rusty... did we ever consider simply digging at the base of one of those totem-like pillars? There were literally pillars in the CZ, and the jewel is depicted at the base of one, after all.

in the picture the gem is at a base of a non-segmented pillar. No I did not dig by the totem like pillars, but I did poke around there and didn't see any thing. I did dig at virtually every non-totem pillar, expect for one or two that were either in concrete or asphalt.  That doesn't mean they were in concrete or asphalt when they were placed though. wilhouse

WhiteRabbit wrote:: This shows the positions of the 'pole', the Miller Centre post, and the curve beside the golf course where the fishbone is. As much as I am convinced with wilhouse's theory...this pic intrigues me.  Not with "where" the pole is but simply how the whole overhead layout looks like the pole with the orb on top.  Then to the right of that is the curved section (not necessarily the golf course) that looks like the sand dune in the I.  Now if there were only some representation of a camel between the two....

Remember, too, that the lampposts within the Houston Zoo are shaped like giant glass orbs on top of a thin pole.  They're a pretty uncommon design, and the pole in the image looks like a stylized version of one.  There used to be a picture of them early in this thread. Also keep in mind that Hermann Park was significantly remodeled over the last 30 years, so this feature on the map might not have actually existed then.  I don't know either way, but it would be important to get confirmation.

bigmattyh wrote:: Also keep in mind that Hermann Park was significantly remodeled over the last 30 years, so this feature on the map might not have actually existed then. Possibly not, but the 'pole' was there. The Miller theatre and the golf club and the garden centre were there. The fishbone is only a walk away - it has to be worth a look.

Yeah, it's worth a look.  The good DrLoveDude now keeps a shovel in his trunk in case of emergencies!! wilhouse

(the good Dr is my son!) wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: Yeah, it's worth a look. I feel this image is a montage of locations round Hermann Park, including the children's zoo, obviously, but also other stuff. I still love the fence between the Garden Center and the golf course, which people were discussing for its sandy qualities most of a decade ago... ...beside the "genie square"... The far end is where I'm interested in, but I can't get to it on Google. Just here. How about it wilhouse? Nice day out at the Garden Center. Buy yourself a pot plant.

LOL, been there. It was built after 82! wilhouse

Cheers wilhouse. Could you confirm, what was built after '82 exactly...? The golf course and garden center were there, so I guess there was some kind of fence between them, but the "genie square" is more central to this theory. I'd like to date that and the star... (The rhino horn was another possible hint for this location.) Came across a nice history of the park the other day... hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/pdfs/Fox_history.pdf

WR, so do you think there's something wilhouse was missing when BP told him that digging in the Children's Zoo was the right idea?

Unknown: Came across a nice history of the park the other day... hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/pdfs/Fox_history.pdf WR here is more detailed info hxxp://www.hermannpark.org/pdfs/master_plan.pdf and if you still think its findable maybe look into the co. hanna olin ltd

I'll check my old photos but there's a plaque honoring the opening day for the garden center after 82.  Check my old posts, it's there somewhere. wilhouse

Unknown: The last project to be implemented before the war was the construction of the Houston Garden Center, a one story pavilion containing a meeting and exhibition hall. Designed by William Ward Watkin in 1938, the Garden Center was not constructed until 1941. Unknown: But is life, indeed, a thing for all infidel levities, and we, its misdeemed beneficiaries, so utterly fools and infatuate, that what we take to be our strongest tower of delight , only stands at the caprice of the minutest event - the falling of a leaf, the hearing of a voice, or the receipt of one little bit of paper scratched over with a few small characters by a sharpened feather? Are we so entirely insecure, that that casket, wherein we have placed our holiest and most final joy, and which we have secured by a lock of infinite deftness ; can that casket be picked and desecrated at the merest stranger’s touch, when we think that we alone hold the only and chosen key? Pierre! thou art foolish; rebuild—no, not that, for thy shrine still stands; it stands, Pierre, firmly stands; smellest thou not its yet undeparted, embowering bloom? Such a note as thine can be easily enough written, Pierre; impostors are not unknown in this curious world; or the brisk novelist, Pierre, will write thee fifty such notes, and so steal gushing tears from his reader’s eyes; even as thy note so strangely made thine own manly eyes so arid; so glazed, and so arid, Pierre—foolish Pierre! Oh! mock not the poniarded heart. The stabbed man knows the steel; prate not to him that it is only a tickling feather. Feels he not the interior gash? What does this blood on my vesture? and what does this pang in my soul? And here again, not unreasonably, might invocations go up to those Three Weird Ones, that tend Life’s loom This is Houston Garden Center at 1500 Hermann Drive, which apparently dates from 1942. Here's a history of the place. hxxp://www.houstonfederationgardenclubs.org/history.htm (bigmattyh - BP's replies were noncommittal - the best endorsement was "not a waste of time". We know he avoided questions on the subject, or gave non-replies like "After 22 years all I can say is I", and I'd rather focus on the book and the facts. A satisfactory interpretation of this verse in its entirety has never been found IMHO. It definitely involves the zoo, just as Roanoke involves the Elizabethan Gardens, but I don't think it's where the casque was buried. Most of the other images like New Orleans are montages of various different areas.) In the center of four alike We know how much BP liked pulling words off signs and buildings (FOY, Roanoke, Cleveland, Chicago, New Orleans, probably NY and others). This Garden Center shown in the images above has "Center" on it in big letters, and looks like it was an easy trip from the zoo. One of those three (the Fates) was Atropos, which brings us back to the "Atropos Key" at the nearby Miller Theatre. That's quite a coincidence. Lock...key...sounds reasonable. I suspect this trail goes train -> zoo -> theatre -> garden center, maybe involving the miniature railway circuit.

WR here is some vids on the train,not sure what can and cant be seen i think this was b4 the track was rerouted,and the smaller trian was put in,anyway there are several vids the last time i was at that pk was in 77,and ive racked my brain,but i still dont remember,the layout,i do remember i was happy i wasnt the driver hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ON4mVr0WwQ

Cheers cw...this shape reminds me of some kind of tripped-out locomotive... There are various other puzzling shapes I can't make out.

OK I was thinking the japanese garden center. Yeah, I've been over at the garden center. The trees look like oak leaves to me. There's lots in the CZ. If you look at my old photos there's a layout of the old train track. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: I think some of the pics are actually maps.  the pic in image 1 appears to be a map of the area. The image 8 pic seems to be a map of the zoo. I think that in some cases, the verse is specific (Eg's "hop up"), in some cases cryptic (verse 1, small, split, three winged and slight). You would think that the combination would be specific, but 22 years later, who knows. wilhouse I still haven't got a sense for this image/verse.  It seems clear that there is no uncertainty about it being in Hermann Park.  The 982 and the children's zoo being relocated is a bummer. In the Cleveland thread, Wilhouse says, I wonder if this super simple perspective on Sam Houston's statue and the image as a map might be the way to go.  The star could be the casque location.  Notice how the camel is almost the same size as the Sam Houston. I think we are expected to take the Melville connection a little further, rewind back from Pierre to Moby Dick.

erexere wrote:: I think we are expected to take the Melville connection a little further, rewind back from Pierre to Moby Dick. Unknown: And here again, not unreasonably, might invocations go up to those Three Weird Ones, that tend Life’s loom. Again we might ask them, what threads were those, oh, ye Weird Ones, that ye wove in the years foregone? I don't think it's any coincidence that the quotation from Pierre with the "strongest tower of delight" leads on to an invocation to the "Weird Three" (the three Fates who weave destiny; Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos) and there's an "Atropos Key" right there, next to the zoo. What happened to your love of Classical mythology all of a sudden? Why go researching a different Melville book when there's a perfectly good answer in the one he's actually quoted? Any why else did he quote that particular section? (I'll doubtless get shouted down again for mentioning it, but I think it's also beyond coincidence that the description of the "spirits of Araby" which this puzzle concerns, given in the introduction, dwells on their "fabulous weaving techniques". The clues in the introduction are whimsical and non-essential, sure, but they're there if you look.)

WR, you're right on that key reference and I love it.  I haven't dismissed it at all, just haven't got that far yet.  I'm only making a slight impression with the Starbuck connection.  I would prefer the mythological interpretation, but I don't know Pierre.  After Moby Dick I read Billy Budd and then went straight to Norris and Steinbeck with The Octopus and Grapes of Wrath.  I am just wondering if anyone has considered this dig by the train tracks and keep perspective on the "camel" approach before getting into the quasi-layered-neurotic-narcoleptic-tangent approach that I've starkly and shamelessly used with the other images and verses. I don't know if this has been discussed yet, probably has, but what's up with the distinct similarity of the arch base of the Sam Houston statue with Image 4?!  The blurring of lines and images seems indicative of a hand in the darkness.

Unknown: This midnight-spout had almost grown a forgotten thing, when, some days after, lo! at the same silent hour, it was again announced: again it was descried by all; but upon making sail to overtake it, once more it disappeared as if it had never been. And so it served us night after night, till no one heeded it but to wonder at it. Mysteriously jetted into the clear moonlight, or starlight, as the case might be; disappearing again for one whole day, or two days, or three; and somehow seeming at every distinct repetition to be advancing still further and further in our van, this solitary jet seemed for ever alluring us on. Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost Scale seems one of the central themes of this puzzle. The small animal-headed pillars of the zoo, and the large round-headed pillar of the aerial shot. The full-size 982 and the miniature railway. I feel these lines may be a direction to cross it. I must admit it's hard to get Moby out of your head with all this spouting going on. The beheaded behemoth might almost be lounging in the dunes. There's the spout! A whistle sounds Could be the zoo fountain, though I think we've moved away from that past the Atropos Key. Could also be the fountain at the garden center. If there were miniature trains that whistled and blew steam, it was probably one of those.

Two things: If you mean dig by the train tracks meaning the 982 train, there was nowhere to dig there, it was all rocks. Digging by the Sam Houston statue is a non-starter.  They completely redid the area and dug it all up. I even talked to some of the workers about letting me know if they found anything (I doubt that they would, I gave them my card).  Now it is a protected area and if you showed up there with a shovel you'd probably be shot. You guys are focused on the image, which is great and cool, but you still have to match it with the verse.  Overhead the water veers.  Through the woods, no lions fear. There's nothing in any place except the CZ that matches that.  The djinn is wearing the hat of the imp in the CZ.  Note the totem poles have horizontal breaks like in the CZ.  No where around that area are there columns with horizontal breaks like in the picture. Still I like and enjoy reading other's thoughts. I never found the cask and if something leads us to it I'm more than happy to help someone find it.  I still think it's either in the CZ (I have some thoughts where but I don't know if I can dig there any more), or it got destroyed in the old upgrade. Since I've never discovered the "center of 4 alike" I'm always open to thoughts on what that can be. a rambling wihouse

Wilhouse, i thought you already said the Sam Houston was the middle with four trees around it.  The 1981 aerial is a bit blurry but it looks like the same trees.  I see the crosswalks and stairs were added later. The spot i outlined looks like a small dirt median with a couple trees in it.  Standing there and looking true south you see the Monument fits the position and scale of the camel up and to the left of the center of your field of vision.  I dont know which direction the train comes, but that might determine which direction to face when you dig so that you can look back and see the train coming.  Those same trees and grass look to be there still.  Give another look at my diagram will you?

wilhouse wrote:: I still think it's either in the CZ (I have some thoughts where but I don't know if I can dig there any more), or it got destroyed in the old upgrade. Where!?

in response to the photo  which showed the image 8 superimposed on the CZ: From: [email protected] To: wilhouse Subject: Re: A final plea before it's too late Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:43:38 EDT > it would not be a waste of time to dig there, but I cannot make any > guarantees whatsoever So to paraphrase BP digging elswhere then the Children's zoo would probably be a waste of time

What was the specific presentation to BP that the "there" applied?

He said it was the Children's Zoo--a map superimposed upon Image 8.

maltedfalcon wrote:: in response to the photo  which showed the image 8 superimposed on the CZ: > it would not be a waste of time to dig there, but I cannot make any > guarantees whatsoever It would be helpful to see what he was commenting on. Personally I think seeking with hope is never a waste of time. Perhaps that's all he meant. Maybe he was making a pun on "tees". Who knows. I still don't understand how people square their assurance about this one with their ambivalence about St Louis. Doesn't that make Montreal a waste of time?

Maltedfalcon, I assume you are comparing my correlation to one that wilhouse did in the past.  I read his diagram that roughly depicts an overlay with lots of relative positioning to select points in the CZ but that doesn't compare to my selected aerial.  Rather than see the whole picture as a map, Ive selected just three objects to play a role in two different perspectives.  First the circular area around Sam Houston attached to the reflecting pool and the star as a relative position in aerial with no rotation.  Next the ground perspective facing south to see the camel is in the exact same placement in a framed perspective as the Sam Houston.  I don't use the rest of the image, not to say it doesn't have some significance, to work with my two perspectives.  How can anyone dismiss this congruence?  The next part, where this leads or if this IS where things lead with reect to verse isnt clear to me.  I drew my stick figure with a shovel to only to present the option that the area next to two trees and the rail could be a dig site.

White Rabbit, here you go. wilhouse

Oh wow, I see what you did, that makes good sense.  Digging up the area behind the building looks sensible from this point of view.  That's what BP said was a waste of time.  That was a great effort, Wilhouse.

Don't know if this helps but here's a map from 1979 that I found. Note that the reflecting pond was much smaller back then. White Rabbit, yes, Preiss responded right away that digging there was NOT a waste of time. wilhouse

and for those who never read the entirety of my posts, just to prove I was serious, here's how I dug in the CZ. wilhouse

If the picture is a map and the verse is directions, then the verse gets you into the CZ and doesn't get you out.  That was why I centered around the CZ.  I think there's a couple places left to dig back there behind where the building was but I don't know if I can get in there. I haven't been successful in hooking up with the zoo director, though he once told me that I'd be welcomed back. Honestly, burying something in a state park, (Hermann Park), even at night, in Houston, is a good way to get shot. Hiding out in the CZ late at night, which was open and free in 1982, and mostly dark, would have been pretty easy, especially on the outskirts.  I'm told the back gate wasn't even closed at night and the zoo caretakers only came around to check things out in the evening. They were pretty understaffed, but after putting the animals away at night no one went back there. Again, since I never figurered out what the 4 alike was, I am alway open to new thoughts. I'd be happy to post all my old photos again on flicker or somewhere if someone really wants to spend the time to look at them.  I posted them before  but I don't know if they're still active. wilhouse

The 1979 pdf map didnt download for me.  Is that still available? I havent caught on to the train's layout yet.  The 982 was stationary and relocated, but there is an active rail that passes near the Houston monument rright?

wilhouse wrote:: If the picture is a map and the verse is directions, then the verse gets you into the CZ and doesn't get you out. erexere wrote:: That was a great effort Thanks for the info wilhouse. (I think the verse does get you out though. I've tried to show how Pierre and the "center" gets you out. I haven't given up on this one yet.) +1

Do you get on the train inside the park and then loop in and around the zoo?  Then it would make sense that the verse contains zoo related items.

Sent you the file separately. wilhouse

Thx W. I didn't know there was a fountain just behind when looking south towards Sam.  Why can't the spout be that of the Mecom fountain?  Looks promising somewhere in that grove of trees off to the side by the street between.  I want to think of the children's zoo as a starting place with the animal head theme being prominent in the image.

Parts of this book may hint at Christian symbolism, like this star and cross. I wonder if what falls gently in December night could be starlight...

Preiss was Jewish.  He was in a traffic accident on the way to services. and passed away. wilhouse

Unknown: The Texas State Legislature authorized the creation of local transit authorities in 1973. In 1978, Houston-area voters created METRO and approved a one-cent sales tax to support its operations. METRO opened for business in January 1979. The Authority has transformed a broken bus fleet into a regional multimodal transportation system. Fact checking is tricky stuff. Ive been trying to find out when the paver stones along Fannin St. were installed with the rails, since a majority of art space is allocated to represent the classic brick style.  Ive come across some conflicting histories about the light rail installations.  This blurb suggests it was up and running in 1979. Im thinking this wasnt a rail line at that time, but i wasnt sure why they refer to it as multimodal.  Seems they use METROrail to be specific.

METRO only became a rail line in the last 10 years.  Before that, it was all buses.

Okay, nix lightrail. WhiteRabbit, excuse me but im going to dismiss the dolphin idea, however the Apollo idea looks really really good!  What was Starbucks main co-star's name from 1978's BSG?  Apollo.  I think its looking strong that the Three Winged and Slight is the shape of the outer sections of the Sam Houston statue area and the line is describing the the long skinny "slight" vipers of BSG.  A viper is a type of snake.  A snake is a head on a long skinny body.  A train is like a snake.  The rhino head on the column is like a snake.  Snakes and sand go together well enough.  Im not trying to steer away from the Melville at all, this is just a bonus stream of analogy. Wilhouse, was there a snake area in the zoo as well?  If so, I bet it was adjacent to the giraffe area. _______ Tyger! Tyger! burning bright, In the forests of the night: What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry? -William Blake

I've no doubt BP/JP intended the genie to remind us of fountains, but I reckon they were thinking of steam trains as well. Could just be the 982, but I'd be interested to know if any trains on the miniature railway also had steam and/or whistles.

forest_blight wrote:: And let's not forget that BP actually confirmed that the Houston CZ is the proper location to dig. Besides actually unearthing a casque, that's about as certain as you can get. Or was he only confirming that details to finding the casque include features inside the CZ?  Thats a lot to confirm in itself. You'll come around when its realized that the term for a group of giraffe is a "tower".  I think this detail is significant to finding a path.  The may or not be a path at all, but something tells me that although the verse has a tiny bit of nonlinearity, it still supports a roughly linear snaking journey. The major snake theme is more prominent in my view now that i see that the staggered brick pattern is the same as a snake's scales even though scales aren't rectangular. The cyclone of the Genie seen as the central torrent of the fountain and also as a "Cylon" is possibly ntended as well. All this on top of a Melville reference astounds me. Also, a group of camels is called a "caravan, train, or flock".

erexere wrote:: Or was he only confirming that details to finding the casque include features inside the CZ? Also, a group of camels is called a "caravan, train, or flock". That's a bending over backwards "obtusification" of a pretty straight forward comment. - he was commenting on digging not clues. and he  said digging in the CZ would be a good idea. It would not be a good idea if he was just commenting on clues. Btw the the collective noun for camels is just flock not caravan or train. any more than the collective noun for ships is convoy.  its not it's fleet. Caravan or train, is a descriptive noun for a method of travel that may or may not involve camels.

I drew from this source for the collective name for the camel group: hxxp://www.thealmightyguru.com/Pointles ... roups.html I'm waiting to hear back from the creator of the list to learn what they used as their source before I take one persons dismissal of it's correctness. It isn't a waste of time to dig "there" doesn't definitively imply that it IS there.  Think about it.  Wilhouse sent a photo and had a number of exchanges with BP.  If he was seriously on the right track, there would be no question and BP would've sent a photo or gave specific confirmation.  The real threat of loss to the casque from construction would've been resolved right away if so.  I don't think it's a waste of time to discover that something is WRONG.  It helps us reevaluate our approach.  Wilhouse was close, very close.  He had the right park, he had the 982, the aqua tunnel and the generally strong sense that the CZ was a huge clue leading to the casque.  BP had his own personal guidelines about what would be required for him to confirm a location.  He would guarantee it if that person was very close.  He did not make any guarantees whatsoever for this particular site INSIDE the children's zoo.  Whether "THERE" meant INSIDE the CZ or just HERMANN PARK isn't clear either.  Wilhouse could've submitted a picture from anywhere else in the park and received the same response given that it wasn't on the "split" section of Fannin.  IF Wilhouse came within 20 feet, I bet BP would've confirmed the exact spot.

It's highly appropriate that BP quoted The Ambiguities. This book throws them like confetti, sowing confusion and argument. People seize one interpretation and reject all others. Gh, cast in copper, green towers, North of Xenophon, Lane Two Twenty Two... The aqua tunnel is one of several references BP probably had in mind, others including fountains, jets of steam, Moby Dick and aerial photographs. It's only when the jigsaw fits together that you know which ones to keep.

It's not obtuse at all to say the CZ isn't a waste of time if it is PART of the solution.  Digging is often used in alternative fashion.  Dig for clues doesn't mean you have to use a shovel or have to move any dirt... I'm still waiting for my book, ordered it last week.  Only 3 bucks, I hope it's in decent condition. I've put some work into all the images now.  Not until these last few did I have a serious shock of awe at how amazing BP was in his efforts.  This Battlestar Galactica connection takes the cake.  He uses Classics, early American literature and history, applies a stealthy science fiction or mythological element, and challenges our eyes and minds in ways that keep the adrenaline moving. I feel like i should have recognized the BSG helmet and viper connection sooner.  Its such a strange layer to work with.  Its basically having to look at an ordinary object or building and say "hey, that looks like the Jawa Transport in Star Wars (when looking at the building at 1400 Executive parkway in Eugene, Oregon)".  See if you dont agree.

erexere wrote:: Wilhouse could've submitted a picture from anywhere else in the park and received the same response given that it wasn't on the "split" section of Fannin.  IF Wilhouse came within 20 feet, I bet BP would've confirmed the exact spot. How could you possibly know that - pure conjecture on your part, and by that time I think, BP had already said, you would need a casque not just a picture of the area. You are also ignoring the previous communications Wilhouse had with BP.

erexere wrote:: I drew from this source for the collective name for the camel group: hxxp://www.thealmightyguru.com/Pointles ... roups.html I'm waiting to hear back from the creator of the list to learn what they used as their source before I take one persons dismissal of it's correctness. No problem as you can see from the page, a lot of his sources are suggestions by readers. I  just ran to the  Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, it is the definitive source for etymological questions it is at OED.com but I think you have to subscribe. otherwise most big libraries have it.- I work at a newspaper publisher so we have it.

Unknown: Train comes from the San Diego Zoo ( hxxp://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/ ... _list.html ). Though, they give no citations. Caravan less related to camels and more to nomadic peoples usage of the camel in their caravans. I don't think wild camels would ever be called a "caravan". Hope this helps! Im not ignoring that Wilhouse had a number of communications with BP.  He said he did and I'm not contesting the claim.  Wilhouse said those specific delineated words were the best he could get from BP.  I looked more carefully at the text and I still cant see where BP is quoted saying "the casque is in the CZ".  Talking about something and confirming something are different processes of communication.   Given the option to be specific, BP was still vague, why?  Mine or anyone elses conjectures to answer that should be welcome. In any case, I looked for a specifc confirmation to the CZ being the spot for the the casque itself.  It seems very reasonable to say that clues are in and around the CZ as well as those clues behaving ambiguously.  Any place with trees could be called a forest.  Even asphalt could be called a forest according to John Huston.  Many spouts and fountains exist around Hermann Park.  Any combination of these interpretations can be considered.  Does the BSG idea deserve to be ignored or considered?  I've supplied some reasonable visuals for your consideration.  I'm shocked at the strength of their similarity. The contents of the response to the animal groups list: I went ahead and submitted the question to the SD Zoo.  Maybe they'll provide a source.  Maybe not, no big deal.  I just think it's neat that on some level the camel and the 982 along with the minitrain could have some thematic connection.  Maybe an interesting form of rebus, like camel + rhino = train crash.

maltedfalcon wrote:: How could you possibly know that - pure conjecture on your part, and by that time I think, BP had already said, you would need a casque not just a picture of the area. You are also ignoring the previous communications Wilhouse had with BP. Wilhouse referenced the original article for the Chicago casque that BP sent a picture of the spot to confirm.  You're right that it's just conjecture that he might be compelled to do so again.  If his attitude moved away from giving assistance, then again it's conjecture that he might feel compelled to change his attitude again and do again what he did in Chicago.  *shrug*  I'm just saying I bet he'd have done so if supplied with enough proof and logic to the casque site.

wilhouse wrote:: [snip] He told me once that I had the wrong location, when I was out by the fountains near the museum.  He told me several times that he couldn't tell me any more, just to later tell me I was close. His message that it would not be a waste of time to dig there was, in my humble opinion, as close as he would come to telling me I was right.  I say this because he had told me when I was wrong before. I still think it's there, but our opportunity to get it is small. wilhouse BP would tell him if he was "close". Instead of saying, "you are close, but I cannot make any guarantees whatsoever", he said "it would not be a waste of time to dig there, but I cannot make any guarantees whatsoever."  Either way, it's difficult to subscribe to a view that confirms it's INSIDE of the Zoo when it seems most assuredly somewhere INSIDE the Park.  The CZ is just one area within Hermann Park.

on the other hand. we are just making guesses based on what we think we know of conversations and correspondence between two other people. Have you seen the actual picture? I have not. do you know the complete content of the conversation that preceded the statement. I do not. This is why hearsay isnt allowed in a court. So I think in this case I will yield to someone with a far better grasp of what they were discussing. Wilhouse. and on top of that From what I have seen Wilhous'e solution hasn't been improved on yet.

If The Secret turns out to have anything whatsoever to do with Battlestar Galactica, I'll eat my hat. And malt's and wilhouse's.

forest_blight wrote:: If The Secret turns out to have anything whatsoever to do with Battlestar Galactica, I'll eat my hat. And malt's and wilhouse's. BSG is a story about migration isn't it?

In the early 1980s BSG was an ongoing concern, basing any part of his book on a copyrighted television show would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Here's a picture of that example I made earlier where there's a building that folks locally refer to as the "Star Wars" building.  What it looks like is a Jawa Sandcrawler.

Don't be so silly.  The verse saying "three winged and slight" in no way infringes on copyright.  There's some unusual cases like if he were to use the word "three-peat", Pat Riley might have done things differently.

Just because you've identified something that's three-winged and slight, doesn't mean that it's the same three-winged and slight thing that BP had in mind. So say we all.

erexere wrote:: Don't be so silly.  The verse saying "three winged and slight" in no way infringes on copyright.  There's some unusual cases like if he were to use the word "three-peat", Pat Riley might have done things differently. Actually any concepts derived or based upon another copyrighted work would infringe. a publisher would not even come close

bigmattyh wrote:: Just because you've identified something that's three-winged and slight, doesn't mean that it's the same three-winged and slight thing that BP had in mind. So say we all. It's not a completely random find.  The Sam Houston Monument area has a three-winged characteristic.  Try looking at a map.  If it was a flower it would have three petals.  The verse's connection to Melville is not random.  A major character in Moby Dick is named Starbuck.  The juxtaposition of that name and that shape easily links to an image in a popular TV show.  Everyone knew Lorne Greene from Bonanza and Face from the A-Team!  To top it off I've found several "snake" motif items, a head on a long body = columns, a staggered pattern in the large section of bricks is exactly the same scheme snake scales have, trains are like snakes with an engine and a long length of cars behind them, and it just so happens the name of the three winged BSG ship is a VIPER.  The head in the lion's jaws motif fits the funky design of the helmet.  "No Lion Fears" is nicely associated with not being afraid to put your head in the water fountain lion's mouth. Maybe we all don't understand the difference between something preponderantly interconnected and something randomly applied based on just one trivial connection.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Actually any concepts derived or based upon another copyrighted work would infringe. a publisher would not even come close Explain how he has done that?  He took some photos and wrote some verse.  Describing the Houston memorial as three winged and slight is in no way a copyright infringement.  The words "No lion fears" is hardly a case in court. BP worked in TV as well.  Perhaps he knew Glen Larson in some capacity.  For all we know they were buddies who talked about Asimov over beers. I found this interesting, hxxp://www.lurexlounge.com/bsg/publicat04.php and hxxp://www.faqs.org/copyright/battlesta ... vity-book/ So, BP's company did gravitate to BSG eventually...  What do you say FB, feel like an appetizer?

Unknown: What do you say FB, feel like an appetizer? I'll be needing that hat now, malt.

There was a reptile house in the cz as a matter of fact, in which they would breed reptiles including snakes. As for Preiss, he had no pictures of the Secret areas, they were all in an envelope which he thought was in the safe with the gems, but was not and is lost. You guys have to understand, Preiss thought that the casques would all be found in 6 months. He never thought people would be still looking for casques 30 years later. He was uninterested and unconcerned with the Secret and got to a point where he wouldn't answer any questions or respond unless you said you had a casque in your hand. He and I conversed for a long time about many subjects but mostly books since I am an avid sci/fi fantasy reader and he published a lot of those type of books.  My final plea to tell me his thoughts about my guess on the site was strictly based on the fact that the CZ was going to be demolished.  His response, and I took it at face value, was that I was in the right location but since he had nothing to jog his memory (ie photos) he wouldn't guarantee anything. As a point of info, I did once send him a place I wanted to dig with the request "should I dig there?" and his response was "no, don't dig there".  That's when he told me to stop asking until I was sure I found it. wilhouse ps, I only wear baseball caps...

ok, I guess to be specific, I said I bet I knew where you were standing when you made Image 8. Then I pleaded with him to tell me if I was right since the CZ was going to be demolished. His response, it would not be a waste of time to dig there (and I have always taken it at face value that "there" meant THERE, in the CZ, at the back area of the CZ), was the most straightforward thing he ever told me regarding the secret besides "don't dig there'. wilhouse (looking for my cap...)

which to me says its in/was in the CZ. pretty much case closed on that. I never said 3 winged and slight was a copyright infringement. I said Nothing in this hunt would be based on BSG because of dealing with copyright issues.

Thanks for that Wilhouse.  I'm trying really hard to form my own ideas here.  I understand your point of view as you come across most clearly in your posts, something I seem to have trouble with.  We want to take things at face value first, especially with the circumstances.  It's frustrating to learn BP had grown somewhat apathetic.  Having to jog his mind 22/23 years into the past to get a piece of really useful info out of him makes what you did get into a difficult thing to work with...face value has more specific meaning to you than to him. I see I've hit the wall with pushing the BSG analogy, and I think it wasn't necessary.  It's the fun bonus to how we might look at his creative process, but it is in no way a requirement to solve this.  I have a clear view of how to look at the clues just from the literary and visual perspective.  I plead with you to give my theory a chance.  Find that split where Fanning turns to Fanning N and Fanning S and see if standing there you have a perfect perspective of the Sam Houston as a 1:1 with the camel.

erexere wrote:: Maybe we all don't understand the difference between something preponderantly interconnected and something randomly applied based on just one trivial connection. Yeah, I get how you're making these connections, but I think you also get the logic backwards. The right answer has to fit, but everything that fits isn't right. Trying to tie this to Battlestar Galactica is definitely the funniest one yet, though.  Keep 'em coming.

erexere, actually I"m having a good time. I'll check it out. wilhouse

Unknown: It isn't a waste of time to dig "there" doesn't definitively imply that it IS there. Actually, that's exactly what it DOES mean. Because if it wasn't there it would be a waste of time to dig there.

and you know shecrab, I have honestly always felt that way. Though he was often obtuse, Preiss never tried to trick me or steer me in the wrong direction.  Mostly he would say "I can't answer that" or "I don't want to talk about that". Our relationship become kind of frosty for a while until I picked up a graphic novel and sci fi novel that both were published by his company. I contacted about them and he was very excited to talk about his publishing work. We conversed more frequently after that, usually about an author we liked or a book I thought he'd enjoy. I believe it was my LACk of conversation about the secret at the end that allowed him to answer in the most direct manner he ever had regarding the CZ. wilhouse

Man, this blows.  My idea about following track is all wrong.  The mini train was expanded a bunch later on. What about a tall tower filled with birds? Is that still around?  I cant recall what thats called.

Updated summary for this image... Houston theory (PDF) I'll try contacting local metal detecting clubs etc and see if I can track down someone willing to take a look...

Unknown: WR I'll try contacting local metal detecting clubs etc and see if I can track down someone willing to take a look... WR you are asking a lot from a Md machine,a good two box,with an experienced operator,might find it we are talking 3' +,and a small piece of metal,and then your liable, to get one of those dont care detector-est that will leave holes,and dig where they shouldnt,i belong to a MD forum,give me a PM on lat,log,gps,or something to get real close,and ill see if i can find someone reliable,id hate for the hunt of that casque to go sour after 30+yrs,because of a greedy MDer,i know you wouldnt think,someone would be like that,but they are out there,and they give the rest of us and our hobby a bad name

(Chrz cw0909, I'm not expecting anyone to be able to find it using a metal detector, I'm just trying to think of a contact who might be willing to try digging or at least looking at this precise spot here .)

WR, interesting theory.  I dont agree with the result any more than I like my proposed spot.  The trail really gets cold at spots.  More emphasis on a reason for each interpretation might help.  Diving too far into the Melville seems over the top as much as my over reaching into BSG...now Im thinking Adama rhymes with Llama...now thats just reaching on my part.  My suspicions that there is a double meaning in Tower and Delight to mean Giraffes and "charm" in place of delight means Finches is my current stirring.

shecrab wrote:: Actually, that's exactly what it DOES mean. Because if it wasn't there it would be a waste of time to dig there. Of course.  I was trying to put emphasis on Wilhouse's intented "there" being not the same as BP's recollection.  The style and look of buildings in the general area around the cz and inside it shared a similar design.  If that wording is the best BP was willing to offer then he is at least confirming he remembers placing a casque in an area near a roundish building.  Perhaps the one in wilhouses photo was painted a different color or new siding had been installed.  Something clicked but not so much that he had the option to say "yes, right around that spot".  He might have well said, "digging next to round structure sounds familiar, so its not a waste of your time, just be sure to interpret all the clues right, good luck, now don't bother me again..."

erexere wrote:: The trail really gets cold at spots. More emphasis on a reason for each interpretation might help.  Diving too far into the Melville seems over the top as much as my over reaching into BSG...now Im thinking Adama rhymes with Llama...now thats just reaching on my part.  My suspicions that there is a double meaning in Tower and Delight to mean Giraffes and "charm" in place of delight means Finches is my current stirring. Well, yes. But I don't believe in trails any more. Shecrab has shown us the road to chaos. And I don't believe in finches either.

Its really great that Wilhouse has been sticking around and others have maintained an indominable spirit in this.  There's a lot of good stuff with all our ideas shuffling around in this chaos.  All we need is a really good confirmer and a bullet proof vest and a casque will be won.

As for your BSG connection...... "New York : Byron Preiss Multimedia Books, c1997." ummmmmm  1997?

Yeah, that's why I said he eventually went towards BSG.  Gotta wonder if he didn't have some kind of interest behind publishing that memorabilia.

WR, give me a more specific idea of where you want me to investigate and I will be happy to do so. I will tell you I have already poked around the CZ with ground penetrating radar, and that area is so full of old pipes and such that you can't tell what's down there. I seriously doubt a metal detector even set on sensitive would be able to find the key in the case several feet down. you can contact me by email if you want. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: WR, give me a more specific idea of where you want me to investigate and I will be happy to do so. WhiteRabbit wrote:: Just here. [11th or last fencepost] wilhouse wrote:: Yeah, it's worth a look. The good DrLoveDude now keeps a shovel in his trunk in case of emergencies!! Thanks wilhouse. I fully appreciate that you have your own ideas about this puzzle and I don't expect people to follow up every crazy idea about their home town that gets posted on this forum, though it doesn't stop me trying. For the record, the exact dig spot I'm interested in, and the reasoning, is set out in this PDF file - link below. I'm not saying it's complete or watertight by any means, I'd just like to get it checked. Let me know if you have trouble opening it. I posted all this a year ago, and you said then that it was worth checking out, so I recently reopened the discussion to see if you had (nag, nag).  ;) Houston theory (PDF) - click on this link to view When I recently reminded you about this a year later, you said it was after '82, and I said, no it isn't. After that the old arguments restarted, together with a bunch of crazy new stuff. Ah, it's all good fun. But I still haven't had my dig location looked at.

(Wilhouse, I just heard back from another Houston contact who's offered to check this site - see PM.)

I just discovered Google Earth historical imagery. (There's a clock in V6 that lets you wind back through various historical points. Might be worth bearing in mind for other locations.) We all knew it, but it's still a sobering exercise to see how Hermann Park changes. For instance, here's three shots of the Garden Center from 1978, 1989 and the present. The "genie square" was there by 1989, and the same basic shape seems to have been there back in 1978, though the surround is darker; possibly grassy. Curious. (I should add that, fond as I am of the genie square, my favourite image match from the same location is the veiled white figure with watery torso standing in front of a line of four matching pillars beside the sandy bunkers of the golf course. If you look at the picture, how many "four alike" do you see? But nobody seems to recognise this similarity because other elements are borrowed from somewhere else.) It's unlikely a metal detector will find this thing, but I tried contacting some detectorists on the basis that they enjoy digging stuff up, and they've indicated that they'd be interested in organising a casque-hunting foray with wilhouse. So maybe we'll see some more ground broken in Hermann Park yet. (Though probably not as much as last time.)

I'm going to sum up my thoughts on this image. We know that the verse scribes a line from North to South. If you follow all the markers in the verse, this line travels from (North) Mecom Fountain to (South) the Houston Zoo where the train station is. AT the terminus of that pool, is the Pioneer memorial. The column with the ball on top looks like a water tower to me. HOWEVER, after extensive searching through satellite images, which were taken years ago--not recently--I cannot find anything that looks like a water tower. However, more extensive searching has made me change my mind on this for another reason altogether. You'll see what I mean in a minute. The elements in the image are: the "arab" standing inside a spout of water--geyser or fountain. The columns. The "track" marking. The jewel itself. The animal heads. The tree at the top of the picture. The "star" at the top of the picture. The stone blocks upon which at least half of the columns are placed. The "tilted" block at the base of the camel column. The "arab" is, I have been told, similar to an "imp" that is seen somewhere in the zoo. The columns are similiar to totem poles in the same zoo. The track marking is, in my opinion, just that--a track. Railroad track. Not a parking lot marking. Although the parking lot marking is tempting to use, I doubt it could have been what Preiss photographed. That image from the satellite was taken and is at least 100 feet up. There isn't a place anywhere in that zoo where he could have seen that marking at that angle from that height. Unless he was in a hot-air balloon, maybe. I do not buy that parking lot marking and never will. The tree looks like a live oak tree. The star looks like a compass. Maybe the "north star", an astronomical compass in itself. From its position in the image, it would make sense to see it that way. The tilted block under the camel column looks like the roofline of the the outdoor theater. The hills in the background are shaped like the pavilion roofs at the zoo--i.e., wide cones. Now here's how I put these all together with the verse: The verse tells you (1) it's in Hermann Park and to travel from NORTH to SOUTH. From the "Fortress" and "Cold as Glass" you would enter the park at the Mecom Fountain entrance, the north entrance--and travel south. This is extremely easy to do, as the main path as you enter is the walkway along the reflecting pool. You see the "four alike" at the entrance to this reflecting pool. They are four small posts and the Pioneer memorial obelisk is seen smack in the middle of them if you stand there and gaze down the length of the pool. The pool itself has stone blocks along the edges. The bottom is painted black. If you look at the image, you see stone blocks on the ground and a dark SHADOW at the base of the main, spherical, column. That shadow looks a lot like what you would see if you looked at that pool. The shape of the column and globe at the top is the same as the shape of the pool topped by the circular Sam Houston Statue area. There can be no other explanation for that globe--since there is no such object in the park or zoo that would have been there in 1981. (The kugel ball was installed in the late 90's). The star at the top of the globe would likely be a "north star"--and the configuration of it looks like a compass face. North-South-East-West rays and no others, inside a circle. I think it's purpose is to tell you to stick to the North-South path the verse describes. And don't go anywhere ELSE. The verse then tells you to "take your task to the 982". Well, you can't now--because the 982 is gone. BUT--remember, it says TAKE YOUR TASK--your task is to DIG UP A CASQUE. So to me, that means go to where the train is and DIG there. Somewhere. The rest of the verse matches other elements in the image and in the park. "In the sky the water veers"--it's been suggested that this is the Aqua tunnel. HOWEVER...the tunnel is small, and you don't look UP to see the water--it flows around you. Yes, it veers--but something else also fits this description. The fountains at the Pioneer memorial. Not only do they shoot jets of water high in the air which veer this way and that, but you can actually play in them. You would be able not only to look up, you would also be able to stand under them and get drenched. The water then might indeed "fall gently" upon you. Note that the "Arab" in the image is STANDING IN THE WATER, which looks like a water spout. That water is not in a tunnel or flowing around him, it's rising high from the ground UP. Small of scale, step across : across from the 982 was the mini-train. The station is just past the Pioneer memorial. From studying pictures and maps, I believe the casque was NOT buried in the Children's zoo--but near the Pioneer Memorial and the train station. You can get everything from both verse and image at that location. I think the reason the casque wasn't found, despite Herculean effort by Wilhouse, was that he simply went TOO FAR SOUTH. You don't need to. All the elements of both verse and image are found no further than the end of that reflecting pool and the area around the memorial obelisk and train station. I think the casque was buried at the base of something that looks like the base of that column, not far from the tracks. Maybe a bit Northwest of them, as shown in the image.

Okay, okay... First, I like how you're approaching this.  We've been assuming all along that this verse is more or less in order.  I agree with you, though, that the verses aren't necessarily in order -- and questioning a long-held assumption is good. A couple of thoughts: I don't think the north-south thing is meant to be a direction, necessarily -- but maybe a kind of "boundary" to put you in Hermann Park. So here's a question: I think there's pretty good reason to believe that these verses/images are constructed so that each relevant clue, once put in the correct order, gets you closer and closer to the casque until you're "zoomed in" enough that you have a small area in which to dig.  (Call it a "trail" or not -- there are broad, "zoomed-out" clues like the lats/longs, and specific "zoomed-in" clues like the exact stones to mark the casque site, and many levels in between.) So, I like the idea that 982 might actually be a "zoomed-in" clue, rather than a more "zoomed-out" clue.  But then, what information from the verse/image do you think you use to get even more zoomed in than that?

Two points, shecrab. First, you very well could look up to see water in the aqua tunnel -- the aquarium went up one wall, over people's heads, and down the other wall, if I recall. Second, the prominent star in P8 could simply be a pointer to Texas (Lone Star).

Unknown: Two points, shecrab. First, you very well could look up to see water in the aqua tunnel -- the aquarium went up one wall, over people's heads, and down the other wall, if I recall. Second, the prominent star in P8 could simply be a pointer to Texas (Lone Star). FB: yes, you're correct. HOWEVER...there are 2 reasons I no longer believe it's the aqua tunnel. #1 is it's a tunnel. And the verse states that the water veers in the sky. Meaning, (to me anyway) that it's shooting UP like the geyser fountains at the P. Memorial, or the one in the lake. #2, is that the aqua tunnel is in the Children's Zoo--and I don't think we have to go that far south. The points are good, however, and well-noted.  And I don't disagree about the star, either. That could indeed mean "Texas." So it serves as a double meaning, IMHO. BigMatt: Zoomed in and zoomed out---I like that!  It makes some sense, though I'm not so sure every verse has both innies and outies. In this particular verse, the only clue we have not identified is the "small, split, 3-winged and slight" one. So that one, by default, MUST be the "zoomed-in-nest" one of all. The whole area near the Pioneer Memorial needs to be photographed and examined for anything that fits that description. Also, for the base of that column that looks like the one in the image. I have looked and looked for photos of that area--and most people just take pics of that obelisk and nothing else. THe area doesn't look like it's got a lot of stuff in it, besides walks and flower beds, and we know the thing isn't buried in a flower bed. (That's the reason I've rejected the Garden Center and its environs--almost everything there is a flower bed or would be highly protected from digging.) THere's a lot of land near the memorial; it's just not photographed. The Japanese gardens NEXT to it are photographed more, and many of the little lanterns in the JG have bases that resemble our column bases--but I didn't see any in any pics that looked exact. In this case, I think they need to be. And in the JG, you might have an easier time digging around--it's not as formal as the Garden center is. But I don't think  it needs to go that far west either.  Maybe a little--the jewel is shown a little Northwest of the track marking, but also a little southeast of the base of the column. And the other thing about that star--why make it LOOK like a compass unless that's what it is? The only other star in any other image that even slightly resembles that one is the one in Image 11--and it's not as pronounced. other stars in other images don't look like it at all. I do believe the North-South thing is definite in this case. There are too many markers that point to it being part of the main clue--and if you follow the shape of the Sam Houston statue, pool, pioneer memorial corridor, you don't need to go anywhere else. The water veers at the memorial--and it is commemorating Pioneers--which in some people's minds might be our country's "strongest tower of delight"--a bit of a stretch perhaps, but why not? The memorial is a tower, at any rate. The other line from the verse that isn't depicted as anything is "Perspective should not be lost." We have taken this as pretty much a throwaway line--just a phrase that points to the miniature train as opposed to the 982, which was a full-sized train. But what if it means something else? That star--it also looks a little like a SIGHT--i.e. a gun sight or telescope sight. Cross-hairs. What if there is a place to look through a telescope? or binoculars? Or what if you stand at one end of the pool and sight down to the other end--will you see the "small, split, 3-winged and slight objects? Will that become clearer? Are the stone lanterns in the Japanese garden those objects?

This should probably be discussed in the V1 thread, but... I have no problem attaching "In the sky the water veers" to this:

I wouldn't either, FB, if that tunnel were further north.

For anyone curious about the actual 982 train, here it is in its current location (well away from Hermann Park): hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?q=minute+ma ... 58,,0,6.46

shecrab wrote:: I'm going to sum up my thoughts on this image. Unknown: I believe the casque was not buried in the Children's zoo Unknown: The shape of the column and globe at the top is the same as the shape of the pool topped by the circular Sam Houston Statue area. Unknown: The tilted block under the camel column looks like the roofline of the outdoor theater. Unknown: The column with the ball on top looks like a water tower to me. Unknown: And the other thing about that star - why make it LOOK like a compass unless that's what it is? Unknown: "Perspective should not be lost." We have taken this as pretty much a throwaway line - just a phrase that points to the miniature train as opposed to the 982, which was a full-sized train. But what if it means something else? Unknown: "In the sky the water veers" - it's been suggested that this is the Aqua tunnel. However... Although I don't agree with everything you say here, and I'll defend the Garden Center with my last breath, I do agree with quite a lot of it. Yep. It's the most obvious place, but I don't think it's that simple. Yep. Yep. At this point you're perilously close to agreeing with the overhead analysis I've been posting since last April. Now you only need to acknowledge the curve of the Garden Center and you've cracked it. I actually like the water tower idea. I'm starting to think the "strongest tower of our delight [which] falls gently in December night" might be a fanciful description of a tower of water; a fountain, the "spout". Snow is water after all. "The name of the Lord is a strong tower" and "The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life" (Proverbs). Yep, the star is compass-like, and possibly has some kind of directional significance. (With its four arms, it might also tie in with "in the centre of four" somehow.) I also think this has more significance. (I'm currently wondering if it's an instruction to maintain a particular sightline when moving from one spot to another.) Agreed, BP deliberately confuses and misleads with ambiguous statements. Although the water veering in the sky does suggest the aqua tunnel, it also suggests various other things, and I think it's actually a fountain. I think various references in the verse which we've taken to be at separate locations are actually all talking about the same more limited set of landmarks. The spout, the tower which falls gently in December, the water veering in the sky, could all indicate the same fountain. It's like "Ascend the 92 steps; after climbing the grand 200" - two cryptic ways of describing one thing. And let's not forget the difficulty of other lines like "cast in copper" and "woman with harpsichord" in that verse. Some of these puzzles are very obscure, and this is one of them.

the star in the img.... there is a planetarium, in the science building,was it there in 81

(...yeah, 1964, my new favourite date...see V1.)

cw0909 wrote:: the star in the img.... there is a planetarium, in the science building,was it there in 81 Yes it was. At the Museum of Natural Science, just inside the entrance to Hermann Park.  And Preiss loved astronomy--judging by the huge number of astronomy books he wrote and published. I stated as much in another thread somewhere. Not only that, but the dome of that planetarium is attached to the building by a long, slender "hallway" type of structure, so that seen from above, it would look like a short version of the sphere column. --BUT-- even though all that is correct, you cannot see or catch the train at the Museum--I don't think we should ignore that. And there is no place that I could see that fit with the rest of the image elements near that museum. That is one of the things that is heavily photographed --there are quite a few images online. It is also undergoing some extensive renovation, that will add a new floor and change the building shape a bit. I went back through the years of exhibits the museum has had, and checked to see if there was anything that even stood out a little. Aside from a current Tut exhibit, there wasn't anything that stood out.

Unknown: Yep. At this point you're perilously close to agreeing with the overhead analysis I've been posting since last April. Now you only need to acknowledge the curve of the Garden Center and you've cracked it. To WR: I don't like the curve  or Garden Center for many reasons. Too many places you could NOT bury the casque is the main one. And the fact that the GC is too far to the East of all that is essential in the image for my solution. I didn't really agree with your overheads either, until I saw the 1979 map--which has the same shape on it--I've said this over and over: I cannot agree with any solution that uses satellite images to "prove" a correlation with any of the shapes in the images--because BP would not have used those. He might indeed have used MAPS, or diagrams from park/location literature--but just because you can find a shape with a satellite picture that resembles or even is a dead ringer for one of the pieces of the image, it does NOT make a confirmation. This is just my opinion, mind you. You can, of course, continue to sift through as many satellite pics as you wish to; we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't believe the curved line is the parking lot. Period. Why, out of all the parking lot lines that curve, out of all the lines in all the lots, would he put in a single one--when it's not some place you can dig? That makes no logical sense at all to me. Nor do I believe that he would have used the 982 TRAIN to refer to a single date on a commemorative plaque. Again, that reference may be a lovely bit of synchronicity, but it doesn't trip my trigger. Why not just use 1964? He referred to the train with the correct number--he counts correctly in all the other verses--why suddenly halve the number he really wants you to find? I don't think even our genius Preiss could have gone into the Garden Center grounds and gotten away with digging around without some serious interference. The flowers and trees are all labeled, laid out in easy-to-see areas or formal beds, there is a ton of statuary there because it's also a sculpture garden. Too open, too exposed, too public and too "official."

One of my first visits to the area I was convinced that the casque was around the train. I looked all over the park for 2 things:  columns with horizontal dividers and some elf/djinn/genie that was similar to the one shown.  The chicago and cleveland casque showed us that Preiss used actual physical elements from the area in the drawings.  There is nothing outside of the CZ that has those elements. The 982 train was cordoned off with a fence area and the ground was filled with rocks. There was no place to dig around the train itself. If the casque was in the park area, then it's gone. As the small train was all dug up and replaced, the lake was made bigger and the reflecting pond made bigger. That whole area is different.  I did find 4 trees at the time in a "circle" and poked around there with my 4 foot long poker but I didn't find anything. The aqua tunnel has an unusual design. As you go down the steps, the water is over you and on the sides. However as you travel south, the water Veers right and left. The tunnel splits into a Y shape and the water veers those directions.  Water in a fountain, or a spout does not veer. Preiss was a master of words and he used specific words for a reason. I don't believe he would not have referred to water veering in a fountain.  That's my opinion and why I don't believe the Meecham fountain or the garden center fountain are the veering water.  Although I will tell you that I spent many hours at both spots looking around for some clue from the verse or image. By the way, there were many lights in the CZ with those globe type fixtures. They were only in the CZ and by the food court in the zoo. wilhouse

found in the trees.

I cant make that last image out.  Looks like tortellini.

tortellini!! Blow up the picture. It says ZOO wilhouse

What is this statue looking thing in this tiny square?  It is now a sea lion attraction just north of a reflection pool.  Before it was renovated it looked like it had some small white statue with a square base.  I keep thinking it's Dowling, but I haven't found anything saying it was moved a second time during it's near Hermann Park installation where it sits south of the zoo on a median.

Unknown: Blow up the picture. It says ZOO shecrab wrote:: I've said this over and over: I cannot agree with any solution that uses satellite images to "prove" a correlation with any of the shapes in the images--because BP would not have used those. He might indeed have used MAPS, or diagrams from park/location literature--but just because you can find a shape with a satellite picture that resembles or even is a dead ringer for one of the pieces of the image, it does NOT make a confirmation. This is just my opinion, mind you. You can, of course, continue to sift through as many satellite pics as you wish to; we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. fox wrote:: ...this pic intrigues me...simply how the whole overhead layout looks like the pole with the orb on top. Then to the right of that is the curved section (not necessarily the golf course) that looks like the sand dune shecrab wrote:: I don't believe the curved line is the parking lot. Period...That makes no logical sense at all to me. Why worry about obscure references to the zoo when we have obvious ones? We know the puzzle references the zoo. There is absolutely no doubt about it, like there's absolutely no doubt that Image 10 shows Milwaukee City Hall. That's not where the Milwaukee casque is however. Likewise most of us no longer think the SF casque is in GGP, which is a closer analogy. Do we really? Haven't you noticed that maps and aerial photos have a certain correspondence?  ::) I tend to use Google views because of their accessibility. Obviously the same features would have appeared on maps. Here they are on the one wilhouse provided. Fox on the satellite version - To suggest two of these but deny any possibility of the third is selective blindness, especially when the curve of the Garden Center parking lot runs alongside large piles of sand at the golf course.

If we go back to the Image path idea. the large tower with the ball, matches the Sam Houston statue/circle - reflecting pool stand on the street in front of the Image (herman park drive) - Go left , thats the way the genii is faciing - of course - herman park drive loops right there and you are immediately going the other direction. Go until you find the next landmark Camel -Rhino Sounds to me like the signs you find in zoo parking lots  so you remember where your car is. hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Dan11Nil7Vs/T ... -11-15.jpg is an example from the San Diego Zoo. Which means we are now at the treasure ground where the verse starts with the 982 train. Seems to me to work perfectly and logically takes us to the CZ.

This the first mention of those signs?  Nice find!

they're not in the Houston zoo parking lot, which in 1982 was much smaller.  But, how about this? At the zoo entrance. wilhouse

Here's a goodyear blimp airfield in Spring, Texas that was present sometime between 1964 and still there in 1981.

i found a historic aerial  of hermann park,from  1981,1957,64,73,02,04 it has some cool features,overlays for roads city county,it has a dissolve with slide bar,or slide say 1981 img into X yr,a piece at a time,best viewed in full screen when you get which ever view you want 6200 hermann park drive houston tx link to the 1981 view hxxp://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=1981 i forgot the source where i found the historic-aerials hxxp://library.rice.edu/collections/ere ... ic-aerials

Unknown: That's my opinion and why I don't believe the Meecham fountain or the garden center fountain are the veering water. Unknown: To suggest two of these but deny any possibility of the third is selective blindness, especially when the curve of the Garden Center parking lot runs alongside large piles of sand at the golf course. I don't either. I think it's more suggestive of the fountains in the water-play feature near the Pioneer memorial. and that's pretty much where I think the casque is buried. ClosER to that memorial obelisk (not NEXT to it)--and not IN the zoo at all. Yes, a lot of the features in the image lead you into the Children's zoo, but maybe that's because he CAME from that direction--in other words, I'm wrong about the "veering water" altogether and he's talking about going from SOUTH to NORTH, instead of the other way around. Remember--these verses are not linear--they don't have to be in the order they're written. I'm willing to bend on this for that reason, (or any other good one.) My major reasoning for this is that the Arab is standing in the water--IN the water spout. And he mentions "there's the spout."  The aqua tunnel does not satisfy that idea, IMHO--though I will grant it does for the veering water. The memorial also satisfies the line about "strongest tower". I will not believe in any way that it is in or around the Garden Center. I've stated many reasons for that, no need to repeat them. I take it the Japanese gardens were not there in 1981? It looks as if they were placed in the area where there used to be a playground  and ball fields. Am I correct? .... I'm sorry you think I'm just being selectively blind. I suppose I could say the same about you--since you absolutely refuse to entertain any other idea than that parking lot marking. Even though the likelihood of it being buried in a bunker on a golf course is nil, and there's no place to dig in the parking lot either. I guess we're even that way.

Shecrab, you might have missed it, but the the reason I believe the spout is in the CZ is because the elf is a FOUNTAIN! Yes, the elf had a water connection to it, and water came out of his hand and cascaded down the statue into the base, which was a recessed area that was tiled. You can kind of see it in the polaroid picture I posted. Yes, people threw coins into the fountain, though not much. So in my opinion, the picture is literal, not figurative.  The djinn in the fount of water IS the elf which IS a fountain. The spout of water coming from the elf could only be seen from a very limited area in the back area of the CZ. I believe if you were standing on the treasure you could see the spout. That is why I believe it's in the back area of the CZ. The area around the reflective pond and the monument (which was one of the first places I looked) is surrounded by hard packed fill. It's essentially undiggable it's so hard, on purpose, so that they don't have to replace it.  The area around the pool was a public place with benches. I don't think you could bury anything right in that area. Even so, if it was there, as I said, it's gone cause that area was completely redone when the pond size was doubled. wilhouse

wilhouse, does my memory deceive me, or was there discussion some years ago about a fountain in McGovern Lake -- an occasional jet of water that would shoot high into the air and which could be described as a "spout"?

Unknown: Shecrab, you might have missed it, but the the reason I believe the spout is in the CZ is because the elf is a FOUNTAIN! I did miss that. Thanks. But......(don't you just hate this?) I know you're convinced it's in the CZ, and you have compelling, if not probably solid, reasons. And you have confirmers. But you searched--and found nothing--correct? And you did use a backhoe (or bulldozer) or some such--correct?  And they did dig up most of the CZ and remodel it and still found nothing--correct? So maybe it's time for another idea?  I know there is a lot of land around the monument and the water play fountain near the memorial that is undiggable. I realize that. And believe me--I'm not just saying this to be stubborn. I agree(d) with almost 100% of what you saw and claimed before--but the stickler here is that you dug and found nothing. And you KNOW it's in Hermann Park somewhere. Were there parts of the Czoo you didn't dig in? Or didn't search?

Thinking on the method having used select parts of the image to determine the location.  Im inclined to think "gaining perspective" is about finding someones point of view.  Whose?  The Elf?  Some other statue of a person or creature?  camel, rhino, djinni looking in same direction and using the most recognizable feature as a map view puts something of a clue in place.  We should find something that faces west?  Does the Elf look west?  Brb. Okay, i was hoping was Dowling but he looks mostly south by southwest.  Houston looks east.  Hermann looks west, maybe its him.  Now looking at his perspective what matches something in the image?  Hermann memorial Southwesrt hospital was built im '77 and has Heart and Vascular written on the facade below a tower.  strongest tower of delight = heart?  Wow!!  The angle from Hermann's perspective looks upon a decorative arch from the SIDE and it matches nearly exact the rhino column.

shecrab wrote:: I'm sorry you think I'm just being selectively blind. I suppose I could say the same about you--since you absolutely refuse to entertain any other idea than that parking lot marking. Even though the likelihood of it being buried in a bunker on a golf course is nil, and there's no place to dig in the parking lot either. On the contrary, if you review my postings during the age that all attention has been focussed on the CZ, you'll see that I'm very open to ideas, and I've explored quite a few. Overcoming the inertia surrounding this one has been the main obstacle, and I'm glad people are finally taking a wider view of the park. As I've repeated many times, I think there is a very specific place where it might have been buried, beside the fence that runs between the parking lot and the golf course, impossible to view on Google. All I've asked is that someone take a look. To insist that "there's no place to dig in the parking lot" when you've never been there and can't get a good view of it is absurd. As for the golf course, I said near, not on. If you find any other large sweeps of sand in Hermann Park, let me know. But you seem too busy investigating things that weren't there at the time, or ever.

Find Herman, navigate around the curved water feature that looks curved when viewed from the sky, step across the street in the direction of his perspective, see this now look at this rich assortment of columns In my best guess to correlate things, see the one column that looks like out of place, it has the uplifted stone slab.  There's a number of ways to look at it but it's pretty well narrowed down to having 4 key columns aligned as 1^2-3-4 where a corner is between 1 and 2 which makes a lot of sense as a play on perspective with drawing four columns with a smaller-tall-smaller-smallest.

shecrab wrote:: I know you're convinced it's in the CZ, and you have compelling, if not probably solid, reasons. And you have confirmers. But you searched--and found nothing--correct? And you did use a backhoe (or bulldozer) or some such--correct?  And they did dig up most of the CZ and remodel it and still found nothing--correct? So maybe it's time for another idea? +1 (I like that column with the indented top Erexere. We need to be meticulous about dating things though. I'm not sure what that building is or how long it's been there...?)

Shecrab, have I dug and dug in the CZ and found nothing? True. Yes, we bulldozed and found nothing. Have I dug everywhere I think it could be? No. Some parts of the CZ where I think it has a good chance of being were filled with huge roots and hard as a rock. I couldn't even get my poker through it. I've eliminated a lot of places it could be by digging, but not all. Unfortunately, some are now inaccessable. There are a few places I could still try if I could get permission. However, as I've always said, until it's found everything is wide open. I try not to stifle anyone's opinion unless I know for certain what they're looking at or for is wrong (as when I said there's no water tower that I know of, or that there is a kugel ball.) In some ways I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm also the devils advocate. Follow the verse. Find clues from the image. Give a convincing argument (unlike some people from the Treasure Trove days who like to anagram to make their points.)  Make sure what you're looking at is from 1982 not 2002. In these ways we still have a chance to find it! wilhouse

I'm wrestling with perspective changes that are huge when comparing small location shifts in Google Maps or Bing Maps.  Their 360 degree rendering really mucks with the process too.  In my minds eye I can see this working perfectly and I'm 100% sold on this at this point.  What's needed is someone to be standing further into the image and on the right spot.  I've found two angles that are on both sides of that imaginary view. And that dune curve,

can you tell what building that is? there's been a huge amount of reconstruction on that street in the last 10 years wilhouse

Its the older of the bunch.  1977.  Memorial Hermann Hospital Southwest, Heart and Vascular center. ... I think it's totally new construction, ah man...It looked so good.  Guess it's time to go back to the drawing board.  30 years is a total pain in the ass.

yeah, I watched them reconstruct that building which is why I asked. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: yeah, I watched them reconstruct that building which is why I asked. wilhouse Thanks for not letting me hang myself too long on that bogus theory.  Its going to hurt like a one night stand for a day or two... Glad i caan fall back to my blimp theory now.  It works better with the BSG too!  I know...i dont expect any love...but I really like the flying stuff.  What flies in Arabian culture?  Djinni?  Carpets? If i have lucked out to recall that blimps were the coolest things in the sky in 1981, and the landing strip and circle are pretty close to exact the shape of the ball-topped column then why not pursue this further?  What would a blimp veer from?  How about the tallest building in Houston at the time?  First City Tower on 1001 Fannin St. is just up the road from the park entrance.

erexere wrote:: First City Tower on 1001 Fannin St. is just up the road from the park entrance. It's in downtown, which, while it looks close on a map, isn't actually all that close.  Also, you can't get much of a clear view of downtown from most places in Hermann Park since it's surrounded by trees and other buildings.

I'm thinking maltedfalcon style here...iconic shape?  What if these column shapes in the buildings architecture are the four alike and in the middle only means Fannin St.?  If so, i'm back to my idea that the small split is where Fannin splits off between the Mecom and Sam Houston landmarks. Fortress North, standing in front of the Church Tower cited by Wilhouse we can still see the First City Tower.

The blimp idea is going strong.  The Shenandoah Crash is still a juicy story to consider.  The reason for the disaster was storm related, something called a squall line, which in its description included such terms as tornadoes and "waterspouts". Maybe BP saw an opportunity to combine the idea of Moby Dick a giant white whale with the idea of a Blimp, a giant whale-like air ship.  He spins an "Ahabian" quest into an Arabian tale. Falling Gently is what these ships do as long as they aren't on fire. In December night might be the idea that cold air might affect the bouyancy of an airship although they have regulators for temperature and pressure of the gas inside.

erexere wrote:: Here's a goodyear blimp airfield in Spring, Texas that was present sometime between 1964 and still there in 1981. Baltar from BSG. ball-tarmac?  Im just kidding.  The shape of these blimp airfields seems to have a trend.  Here is one near Carson, CA

Unknown: As for the golf course, I said near, not on. If you find any other large sweeps of sand in Hermann Park, let me know. But you seem too busy investigating things that weren't there at the time, or ever. I beg your pardon?

I always thought that this picture of the hills in the zoo just north of the CZ pretty closely matched the hills in image 8. If you see them in person they look even better. Also, I found this picture of the plaque in the aqua tunnel. It shows a donation by the Rockwell Fund. Rockwell Corp was famous for being part of the space age for testing rocket engines. I don't think it's the same Rockwell, but it is a nice coincidence. wilhouse

That might be just it Wilhouse.  Hills could be just hills.  On foot perceptions will acctount for something.  I have to add one important observation from my total failure in my Hospital theory.  That half curve belonging to a circle looks very juicy.  Since it doesnt work at that location, my guess is it will pair with at least one other thing in the image to give a reference.  It could be the Elf fountain close by or it could be a much larger circle at a greater distance like the Houston Loop.

cw0909 wrote:: WR you are asking a lot from a Md machine,a good two box,with an experienced operator,might find it we are talking 3' +,and a small piece of metal,and then your liable, to get one of those dont care detector-est that will leave holes,and dig where they shouldnt,i belong to a MD forum,give me a PM on lat,log,gps,or something to get real close,and ill see if i can find someone reliable,id hate for the hunt of that casque to go sour after 30+yrs,because of a greedy MDer,i know you wouldnt think,someone would be like that,but they are out there,and they give the rest of us and our hobby a bad name I just joined this thread, based on an invite from WhiteRabbit. he contacted my Detector store and our local onilne detecting forum. I can assure you we won't be digging up the park and leaving holes.Don't know why that stereotype of a "pot hunter" would come into play here. Most of us are responsible detectorists that leave an area better than when we arrived, removing trash, and insuring that little or no trace is found of any digging. I'm also the person who gave the tip to WhiteRabbit about historical imagery in Google Earth, hope it helps in your quest. A group of us will be going to the park to take some photos and will provide them to this forum. There's a lot of great conjecture here!

Qkslvr01 wrote:: There's a lot of great conjecture here! There's a lot of crazies here. Didn't I warn you about this place?  ;) Welcome to the forum Qkslvr01.

Welcome Qkslvr01, Metal Detectorists have gotten a bum rap. With a whites coinmaster III I was not able to detect a mock-up casque deeper than a foot. under perfect (non-mineralized) soil conditions, with no additional trash targets.

erexere wrote:: The blimp idea is going strong.  The Shenandoah Crash is still a juicy story to consider.  The reason for the disaster was storm related, something called a squall line, which in its description included such terms as tornadoes and "waterspouts". Maybe BP saw an opportunity to combine the idea of Moby Dick a giant white whale with the idea of a Blimp, a giant whale-like air ship.  He spins an "Ahabian" quest into an Arabian tale. Falling Gently is what these ships do as long as they aren't on fire. In December night might be the idea that cold air might affect the bouyancy of an airship although they have regulators for temperature and pressure of the gas inside. Just checking... You are running down this tangent because the shape of the walkout spot on an airship field is round and has a straight path.  Ignoring the Houston statue and the lamps and the spheres spotted around the park. You leap to the Shenendoah (which A was not a blimp, B, Crashed in ohio, C, did not have a walkout spot, ) and this is considered 'going strong'?

I'm not making a case based on the difference between a non-rigid and rigid gas type air transport...don't know where you get that idea.  My main frame of references are A) a giant sperm whale such as moby Dick has characteristics of a Blimp-like scale and B) Lillian Schnitzer, whom has a memorial in Hermann Park, is the daughter of a man with the same name as a survivor of the Shenandoah crash. I don't cite these pieces of information as strong just to say they are confirmers.  My conventions explained:  weak is something that only fits one basic association, strong is something which has more than one supporting associations. There is nothing being ignored here.  Whats important is the question of why is that shape important or how thematically connected was this puzzle conceived.  Trying to understand BP on that level puts a positive connotation on any tangent idea.  Hope that helps.

erexere wrote:: My main frame of references are A) a giant sperm whale such as moby Dick has characteristics of a Blimp-like scale Your reasoning is: This clue is a quote by Herman Melville. Herman Melville wrote Moby Dick. Moby Dick was a big giant whale. Blimps are also big and giant. Therefore, this clue indicates a blimp. This is the same kind of reasoning: God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Therefore, Ray Charles is God. And yet, you completely ignore the much more direct reasoning: This clue is a quote by Herman Melville. Other clues (the 982) point to Hermann Park in Houston. "Herman" and "Hermann" are very nearly the same word. Therefore, it's likely this clue is a confirmer for Hermann Park.

Well, you can reason just about anything that way Bigmtty.  You're argument is sound, I'll give you that, but it's misrepresenting my basic goal. Is it plausible that BP employed some associative technique in this image and verse or did he use absolutely nothing but plain directions and exact imagery?  Keep it real buddy and stop playing the fantasy card.  By that I mean, there's definitely no Genies in Hermann Park...  If you think nobody is making associations to this imagery than you're sorely mistaken.

Some of you need to start working a little harder to relax and stop being griefers. Decide whether there is any stratification in ideas connected to real persons, places, or things.  If yes, then you've got work ahead of you.  If no, then you've got work ahead of you.  Think about it.  You're either looking to find a pattern where a pattern exists or you're looking for something random where no pattern exists.  Plain and simple. I'm taking an approach that feels right for me and for all I know it's completely wrong.  I look for patterns.  I make associations.  I'm not trying to elevate Ray Charles to God or even Titan status.  I'm trying to work from a broad scope and escape any predisposed pitfalls that might have been the wall so many have already banged their heads upon.  Be careful that you're not just defending that wall in order to make known your opinion against a proposal.  I can tell you don't like my ideas quickly enough.  Well, I don't mind your dislike for my ideas, but I do mind when you make a blunt and dismissive show of it while doing little to contrast my view with a more suitable one. I'm not trying to argue for more of the same lameness here.  I want to identify a dig spot and a reason for it.  My proposals are based on being playful and yet exact.  I believe that was BP's approach.  If that wasn't his approach, then I've been misinformed by this forum.

Unknown: Is it plausible that BP employed some associative technique in this image and verse or did he use absolutely nothing but plain directions and exact imagery?  Keep it real buddy and stop playing the fantasy card. This is great.  You have fantasy and reality exactly inverted.  The "real" to you, is doing multiple layers of word association (in which anything can be justified), and the "fantasy" is literal.  Never mind that the only actual confirmed casques that have been found were done so using literal confirmers. But I'm tired of repeating myself, finally.  I just hate to see you waste so much time on a seriously flawed train of thought.

bigmattyh wrote:: This clue is a quote by Herman Melville. Other clues (the 982) point to Hermann Park in Houston. "Herman" and "Hermann" are very nearly the same word. Therefore, it's likely this clue is a confirmer for Hermann Park. Unknown: But though thus mantled, and tangled with garlands, this shrine was of marble - the perfect marble form...unclouded, snow-white, and serene… What we take to be our strongest tower of delight, only stands at the caprice of the minutest event…Are we so entirely insecure, that that casket, wherein we have placed our holiest and most final joy, and which we have secured by a lock of infinite deftness; can that casket be picked and desecrated at the merest stranger’s touch, when we think that we alone hold the only and chosen key? Pierre! thou art foolish; rebuild - no, not that, for thy shrine still stands; it stands, Pierre, firmly stands. Probably. Why that quote though? Hmm, a white marble shrine. Seem to remember something about one of those.  ??? Oh yeah, I remember now... It's either that, or a blimp. One or the other, I'd say.

bigmattyh wrote:: This is great.  You have fantasy and reality exactly inverted.  The "real" to you, is doing multiple layers of word association (in which anything can be justified), and the "fantasy" is literal.  Never mind that the only actual confirmed casques that have been found were done so using literal confirmers. But I'm tired of repeating myself, finally.  I just hate to see you waste so much time on a seriously flawed train of thought. Wrong and wrong.  Again, you are only hinging your argument on the two solutions found and that assumption that all other solutions must be set to the same observable parameters.  Then you justify why you havent solved it because the "real" world has changed too much in 30 years....boo hoo.  Get real and consider that there could be layers.  Do you have no appreciation for style?  Have you ever heard of a story arc?  Were you any good on the Millers Analogy portion of the SAT? I have demonstrated multiple layers of word association in my loosest efforts in the past, but not herein this particular debate.  This is just about validating a set of visual and literal observations that require crossing a boundary.  At some point you have to let your guard down and decide what BP has described with these poetic words.

Lets get back on the rails here.  WR, i extended my blimp theory as a result of your fountain and my preoccupation with winged, gently falling things.  My BSG theory is still simmering on a back burner.  The CZ is a lost cause, but does everything have to point there or do other options exist? The Garden Center does look bleak to me even though WR has made many supportive claims. The Fannin St. Split looks good to me even though many contrary pointers point us to the center and South area of the Park. The Blimp theory has yet to be debunked properly.  In 1981, Goodyear was having a good year and it was a blimp class fleet if you want to be technical about it.  No need to argue that the historic Shenandoah was technically an airship and not a blimp...since they both fit as comparison to the great whale.  No need to argue that the crash site was in Ohio so it doesnt apply when in fact the Shenandoah's flight through Texas was a big deal and it was piloted by a native son of Texas.  That is a simple enough connection, not fanasty or fiction to justify an outlandish claim.  Lillian Schnitzer's father survived that crash?  Worth considering.  Where does that lead us?  All I can say is the cruciform wing configuration on a blimp is exactly the same as depicted in the image as a star. A new line of thought, what if the Lion / Wood lines are suggestive of the theme "King of he Jungle"?  I argued that image 6 was "King o the Mountain".  Lets see if this is plausible.  Was Moby Dick "King of the Ocean"?  Was the Shenandoah "King of the Sky"? Does anyone see the trend here?  Isnt everything bigger in Texas?  The big whale seems like a perfect choice for BP given the Herman(n) connection.  What other big associations might follow?  I say the Blimp has to be on the list.

Found these old pics.

erexere wrote:: A new line of thought, what if the Lion / Wood lines are suggestive of the theme "King of he Jungle"?  I argued that image 6 was "King o the Mountain".  Lets see if this is plausible.  Was Moby Dick "King of the Ocean"?  Was the Shenandoah "King of the Sky"? Triton or Poseidon, or Neptune is the King of the Ocean, or at the least a King Crab however at the time of the Secret's publishing, The undisputed King of the Sea would have been a Great white Shark based on Jaws. The Shenandoah wouldn't ever have been the King of the Sky, it was never the biggest, fastest, it was based on the german airship L-49 which was basically your run of the mill WWI airship. Even before it flew there were plans for bigger and faster airships in the United States. Plausible - minus

Unknown: But I'm tired of repeating myself, finally.  I just hate to see you waste so much time on a seriously flawed train of thought. Bigmattyh said: Sigh.... Don't you feel like you're just wasting your time here? I've tried, you're trying, others have tried. He doesn't GET it. Let him go dig. When he has enough empty holes, he will stop. The chaff will blow away in the wind.

Surely you've heard the phrase "King of the Jungle" before.  It isn't reserved for one specific lion.  It's just used as a general term to describe a status of being above all others.  Lions are generally thought of as the most fearsome predators in the wild. Please be understanding enough to see that I'm referring to a class distinction where it's not about one specific blimp being the biggest of all the blimps.  This is just a general idea that recognizes Blimps/Airships as a bigger than the rest of flying type vehicles.  Whales are considered among the largest class of sea born creatures.  Some whales are bigger than others. I hope that helps.

shecrab wrote:: Bigmattyh said: Sigh.... Don't you feel like you're just wasting your time here? I've tried, you're trying, others have tried. He doesn't GET it. Let him go dig. When he has enough empty holes, he will stop. The chaff will blow away in the wind. I thought you said you don't lobby against others here...

erexere wrote:: Surely you've heard the phrase "King of the Jungle" before.  It isn't reserved for one specific lion.  It's just used as a general term to describe a status of being above all others.  Lions are generally thought of as the most fearsome predators in the wild. Please be understanding enough to see that I'm referring to a class distinction where it's not about one specific blimp being the biggest of all the blimps.  This is just a general idea that recognizes Blimps/Airships as a bigger than the rest of flying type vehicles.  Whales are considered among the largest class of sea born creatures.  Some whales are bigger than others. I hope that helps. I totally understand  the concept of "King of the Jungle"  a phrase in common use, as is King of the Beasts... however King of the Sea isn't and when used , is simply refering to Triton, Poseidon or Neputune.  That's not to say someone didnt use the phrase at one time or another to mean a whale, its just not a common usage so therefore I don't beleive the connection. The same is true for Airship, its just not considered "King of the skies". Its a  not anything I would consider a vailid connection

Oh, i see, you just dont understand the connection... A general hierarchical reference being applied across realms shouldnt be that hard to understand. Maybe we shouldnt consider what commonality a camel has with a whale.  A hump back.  Lol

indeed - humpback could be associated with whale, however , it is less of a stretch to simply associate the camel and rhino with the children's zoo and the large pole with the ball on top with The Houston statue and reflecting pool and I find my self in Hermann Park, The quote -being an added but unnecessary confirmation for Hermann I read Wilhouses Ideas with as much skepticism as I read yours. Yet as I follow along his ideas I see confirmer after confirmer. With your ideas on houston I basically see wild ass guessing. I think you tend to over complicate what I believe is a very straightfoward hunt. but if you can go dig up a casque go for it.

You make a case for the necessity to be exactly right all the time.  I'm brainstorming and adding ideas to the mix.  Youve done a subpar job yourself at debunking my suggestions.  You acquiesce on the whale/camel comparison and then you sweep Melville under the rug.  Newsflash:  people generally associate Melville with what?  A whale.  My wild ass guessing is a simple process of finding a pattern, which doesnt mean ive only found one thing to demonstrate my view, it means ive found MORE than one thing and that my friend is called a correllation.  If it doesnt fit beyond that then lets move on.

Unknown: The WFL base was closed in 1972 and placed in "caretaker" status. Four of the remaining five WWI frame buildings west of the hangar were burned as training exercises for nearby rural volunteer fire departments. Goodyear airships were maintained at the new hangar in Spring, Texas. Unknown: In his novel The Octopus, published in 1901, the American writer Frank Norris dramatized a late-nineteenth century confrontation between Californian farmers and the Southern Pacific Railroad, renamed in his book the Pacific and South Western (P. & S.W.R.R.). The ‘octopus’ of the title is the railroad itself. Here it is worth mentioning that when organic metaphors are applied to the railway they do not necessarily draw only on the human body. Spider’s webs were an obvious image for railway systems, and in a cartoon of 1849 George Hudson, the ‘Railway King’, is shown as a singularly corpulent and unappealing spider crouching at the centre of his network of lines. The spider imagery is almost invariably negative at some level, and so is the image of the octopus, which is also found in references to railways from the 1840s. Octopuses were perceived as a life form low down the evolutionary scale; they were also visually unappealing and were assumed to have an unpleasant life style which drew from the circulatory systems of healthy organisms rather than contributing to it. That was certainly the view which many took of Hudson. Such imagery could be used in a relatively neutral way: in a 1913 book for children, The Wonders of the Modern Railway, there is a reference to the railway ‘spread[ing] its giant tentacles across the face of a country’, but generally speaking tentacles strangled rather than sustained. To draw a parallel between the railway and a primitive life form such as the octopus was to do the former no favours. Such was certainly Norris’s intention. According to this history of Goodyear, there was just ONE active blimp field after 1972, That's an important distinction.  Being just 20 miles from Downtown Houston, I think this is an important landmark feature to have as a consideration, but not as a point to ignore Hermann Park's significant features.  Just bear in mind that blimps were real and had a significant presence in the sky in the years of 1980-81.  The star in the image does have the same pattern as the rear view of a blimp's wing pattern.  There is nothing wrong with saying a blimp is like a whale in the sky.  When I consider the verse without knowing that "tower of strongest delight" is a Pierre quote, I see an alternative logic where "tower of strongest delight" = Sun = good*, December = 12th month = year, "3 winged and slight" = arrow, and "falling gently" together make me think "Good Year Blimp".  Although I know this isn't the most likeable method to make a connection, I want to add that "delight" is a sloppy homophone for "daylight". *Plato. - random musings - I fell asleep thinking about whales and galactic sized octopi...i couldnt decide if the image was about BSG or a Frank Norris Vs Herman Melville death match...then woke up this morning and read about the St. Augustine Monster... Expanding on this idea for a moment, specifically bringing a literary reference evoked by just two wild ass elements 982 Locomotive and Creatures, Ralph Harrington (1999) comments, I wonder if Preiss toyed with the idea of a battle between sea monsters.  Does that notion help draw us to something relatable in the park?  Any zoo creatures known to battle often?  Rhinos? Apes? Llamas spitting?... Or any giant battles like the monument to Dowling and his small regiment vs an army of 5000?  When Preiss uses the small of scale reference you cant deny it also refers to something huge as the origin of reference.  Jumping to the small train vs 982 is our most immediate notion, but why not consider others?  Lets have fun with this and expand our view, apply a deeper understanding and appreciation for Preiss' capacity to have created a wonderous challenge. Thats a terrible segue to my next musing, how about 3 winged and slight as a reference to Moby Dick?  The humpback whale has two large pectoral fins and a tail fluke, 3 wings.  The word slight is unusual in this application as a whale is a large creature but slight usually means thin or small.  It has a secondary application as a kind of insult, such as calling someone an a$$hole or a dick.  That might suffice as our Moby Dick reference and an indication of Preiss' sense of humor.

erexere wrote:: You make a case for the necessity to be exactly right all the time.and then you sweep Melville under the rug.  Newsflash:  people generally associate Melville with what?  A whale. Only when looking for a casque. Nonsense Melville is a valid site confirmer and most site confirmers are redundant. (as in we've already found the site.) Thanks for that newsflash and as I recall, years ago when The Melville Quote association was made  we spent lots of time considering it and then deciding it was simply a reference to Hermann and really had nothing to do with Moby Dick. the goal is to get closer to a casque and your methodology of random association might work for you. But for me, I read every word that comes across this forum and consider all of it. It becomes frustrating weeding out concise theories from extemporaneous word association. Sometimes its almost like you are trolling.

To which specific word associations are you referring?  The homophone of delight to daylight?  I am not trolling and you know that.  You have made your difference in opinion clear, dont resort to calling me a troll.  Have i called you anything inappropriate?  Lets be clear so this discourse doesnt become trollish. The issue of some clues being redundant is not resolveable without a proven casque discovery.  You can keep those decisive remarks to each specific casque and the methodology applied to them.  Applying the same method to another casque is your personal system and I applaud you for it.  Berating me by calling my efforts trollish only because they are based on a different approach isnt exactly cool.

erexere wrote:: To which specific word associations are you referring?  The homophone of delight to daylight?  I am not trolling and you know that.  You have made your difference in opinion clear, dont resort to calling me a troll.  Have i called you anything inappropriate?  Lets be clear so this discourse doesnt become trollish. The issue of some clues being redundant is not resolveable without a proven casque discovery.  You can keep those decisive remarks to each specific casque and the methodology applied to them.  Applying the same method to another casque is your personal system and I applaud you for it.  Berating me by calling my efforts trollish only because they are based on a different approach isnt exactly cool. Apologys! I do not believe you are trolling , I was trying to describe what it was like sometimes going through the associated ideas. Sometimes they seem spot on but sometimes they seem so far-fetched I wonder if you are being humorous or satirical. mea culpa

Thanks, im also sorry.  For all we know this solution is a fluke...both the statistical anomaly and the whale's tale..tail. I think I might order that Byron Preiss book, The first crazy word book: Verbs. I really only landed on the Shenandoah as I dug for more information on the Lillian Schnitzer memorial ar the Garden Center.  No word associations with that, just a record from an exhibit at the Smithsonian.  I have a pet theory that Preiss utilized the Smithsonian in his research.  The relationship to King of the Jungle is also a pet theory.  The sad story about the Boy in the Bubble from the Texas town of Shenandoah was famously known for having a reoccuring battle with the imaginary King of the Germs.  I recall having some interest in that news back in 1980.  It was a pretty sad situation for him.  (i know, this just looks like another distant tangent...but its just old news and backstory.)

erexere wrote:: To which specific word associations are you referring? BSG-starbuck melville-Herman-Whale-Blimp-Shenandoah etc.

erexere wrote:: I thought you said you don't lobby against others here... It's not lobbying against anything. It's just stating facts, Eric. You don't get it. You continue to propose theories that get wilder as they get further from the known. But that's your problem. When you've dug enough holes and come up empty enough times, you'll quit. That's all I'm saying. I'm not telling anyone to ostracize you, or even criticize you. You wouldn't listen anyway.

Okay shecrab...telling folks to expect me to go away is just a neutral statement then? It just seems odd and shows a lack pf human compassion that you think its okay to go around telling people that someone has been around long enough...im not saying that about you am I?

Personally, I am all for new folks and new ideas but.... hospitals, octopi, blimps, whales, Batalstar Gallactica, Pac Man, shadows, almanacs, geometric/trigonomic formulas, etc... I suppose it is boo hoo to me also because Things Change Over Time....plain (or plane if you prefer to search near the airport) and simple ( which not coincidentally rhymes with pimple and if you search near the airport, there is an Acme {sounds a lot like acne} factory.) I too believe we have honed in on the general methods for finding these things....yet still find myself

Im just getting started, fox...how about humpback as a word play on "hum" "Bach"?  Maybe we need to look for a music performance area...

For those that actually plan on digging for the casque, remember, digging in a texas state park such as Hermann Park is forbidden without a permit, and punishable by jail or fine. I got away with it because the Zoo is not a state park. wilhouse

WR shared this grab from the temple of Apollo at Delphi earlier and it simply fit better than anything else as an inspiration for the columns. Wilhouses CZ overlay was pretty good, but not as good as this.  If thongs matched a lot more, then this wouldnt be an issue.  Putting my BSG idea in overdrive because Apollo was Starbucks flight buddy just made sense.  Of course my whole theory builds to nothing except to say the rear view of a blimp is like the cruciform star as the three winged map shape of the Huston Loop is like the rear view of a BSG Viper.  It confounds all reason to consider this, I know, but like a creature that cant be killed or caught, it keeps rising from the depths.  Its a completely silly theory...as is the Hum Bach sonata idea that would require the honey lipped skills of Edward Bear himself to persuade us to think Preiss wanted us to come to that conclusion. My best idea for the casque to be in the Fannin split offers us a terribly wicked pun since it is in the middle of two roads...why did Apollo cross the road?  Could BP seriously have pulled that kind of word play on us?  Pollo = chicken.  Maybe it crossed the road for some grains of Rice or Sand... Im hoping i can get a foshizzle fo Fannin from Wilhouse.  Do we need a permit for that road median?

That road median was completely redone about 5 years ago. If it was there it is gone. Foshizzle. wilhouse

This median looks like there's some hope left in it.  Same trees were there years past.  I does seem that the thingamajig piece in the middle was taken out...what is that thing? Here's a 73 aerial that isn't very clear but it looks like everything was redone around it, maybe we're in luck? Here's a good pic but a bad angle.  Notice the tree leaves skirt the upper left corner of the image and then there's many more on the right.  I think that's two trees.  Here there's a sidewalk that might not have been there in 81, the casque could've been right there between the two trees.  I'm thinking the red gem at the base of the column might work with the camel as a perspective between the trees looking at Sam.  Maybe the sidewalk missed the casque.  Tree roots were well established pre-81, so if it's in there, it's probably not destroyed.

Here, rolling back to a 1964 aerial you can see sidewalk.  Maybe it's been replaced, but this is an improvement of our chances!

Unknown: Okay shecrab...telling folks to expect me to go away is just a neutral statement then? It just seems odd and shows a lack pf human compassion that you think its okay to go around telling people that someone has been around long enough...im not saying that about you am I? Once again, you've managed to misinterpret the simplest statement to suit yourself instead of common sense. Go ahead. When you're done, and the dust settles again, maybe there will be space for some good ideas. Until then, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to re-imagine MY words as well as Preiss's.

(removed) Telling others that they don't know something is a wonderful preamble to enlightening them.  Simply stating that there is dust to be settled or chaff to be blown or good ideas to eventually come is seriously short of enlightening anyone at all. I offer different ideas when possible.  When others criticism them that's okay.  I'm obligated to whine when the criticisms are without constructive support.  Bigmatty says it's I who doesn't absorb the criticism productively.  I think it is important to absorb criticsm, and where I decide to whine about it, I agree that isn't productive, but at that stage, where I'm protesting, it's only because the initial reaction to me was "without constructive support".  Where's the constructive support when someone says "dude, are you working on the same treasure hunt?"  To the contrary, I am working on the hunt and I am offering a lot of ideas, maybe they are mostly bad or easily seen as lacking in basis, but they aren't all bad.  I'm not even interested in defending the bad ideas.  I'm interested in seeing a good idea that hasn't yet taken shape find it's fit where nobody else has yet GOT IT or had the elusive AHA. The trend in contrary receptions of my ideas has been that I'm L-A-Y-E-R-I-N-G and the support has been that Chicago and Cleveland solutions don't support that methodology.  Okay, I get it.  Now get this, I'll labor the layers as long as it takes to find some more casques.  I welcome any engagement of my ideas as long as they have something beyond the automatic Chicago and Cleveland response.  THATS getting repeated way too much.  Yes, I'm operating with thematic interest, and more importantly I'm not attacking anyone or criticizing anyone for having a different approach than mine.  I care what people think, why they think it, and hope to respect and admire them for sharing their ideas in the effort. Shecrab, I'll do my best to avoid interpreting your words, but I think it's unkind of you and actually silly to say I shouldn't try to understand Preiss'.  Who here hasn't offered their ideas on what Preiss meant with his words?

New Idea  (Im certain someone will quickly find the right place to stand to see the perspective fit.  From where I sit, many states away and at the mercy of Google views resolution, this is as close as I get.) Was focused on what I called the Fannin Split, still a favorite, but I had the notion that if the perspective where Sam Huston fits the spot in the image where the Camel sits atop a column, then there might be alternate points along that line perspective.  I pushed the view back to another area not more than 50 or 60 feet north where there's a distinctive tree that might be thought of as the curve we take to be stitching or track. The view from the Fannin Split and looking north looks like it might match the tree curve and the road edge above (straight yellow line below genie and to the right of stitch). Standing at the green X you can look to Samuel the Camel..Samel? (orange arrow).  Facing the curved tree at a position where the fountain is directly at your back (look behind, blue arrow).  I think between that curved tree base and the fountain is where the casque (red jewel between column and genie) could be. Here's something I tried to work up to explain how to interpret the Samel's location on the Image...sorry, it's not very good, hope you get the idea.  (White lines are field of vision). Back to you Wilhouse.

I welcome any idea that helps find a casque.  Even outlandish and out of the box ideas sometimes spark thoughts that leads to truths. wilhouse

Wilhouse, in erexere's pic of the aerial shot, what is that round pillared collesium looking thing in the triangular park?  Not the gazebo looking thing but the larger roofless structure.  Definitely pillars there.

That's been there since the 60s.  There's a (spouting, maybe?) fountain in the middle of it, which does make it interesting.

erexere wrote:: Found these old pics. Where was that Gorilla statue located?  Im thinking of a stretchy word play...Apollo = Ape - hollow.

Wordplay from images is a slippery slope.

Fox, those columns are simply that, a rest area. I've been there, it's all concrete, no where to dig. wilhouse

I have an imaginative knack for word play...I'm sorry. The train track stitch could also be a "seam" and the pattern in the bricks could be seen as a stair. Seam On Stair = Sea Monster.  More Moby Dick subtlety?

I want to know what that thing sticking up out of the ground is.  It's been removed whatever it was.  Could it have been a water spout?

Whatever it is, it wasn't there when Google drove by (google street view).

Notice the face mask on the Genie.  It's gap looks much like a steam train whistle air hole.

erexere wrote:: I want to know what that thing sticking up out of the ground is.  It's been removed whatever it was.  Could it have been a water spout? No that's a electrical junction box it would have contained wires, ,power or telephone. most likely power probably sprinkler controls, and when they changed or upgraded the system they removed it. cant imagine phone switches out in the middle of a traffic circle. and power wouldnt likely be removed unless lots of the lighting changed. There is a trolley rail right next to it so it could have been the junction of a rail sensor and was removed when the sensors were upgraded to wireless.

Okay, im good with the power outlet idea. Now tell me, which identifies with a steam whistle better, water or power?

Here are a few current pictures from Hermann Park. An interesting tower shaped item: two mounds of sand: Star shaped flower bed: A heart stopper in the grass: three winged awning: four alike (supporting the three winged awning: small of scale train track (whistle) in view of the sand bunkers: grassy area at the end of white rabbit's curved track in the parking lot: Fortress north??? Disclaimer: no holes were dug or casques damaged during the production of these photos

That's really helpful Qkslvr01, thanks for that.  :) There's been a lot of focus on pillars, but not much said about the rest of the pic. I was interested in this design... There are two rows of 11 tiles (quite unambiguous) and an "11" above them. It reminded me of the fence, and I'd suggested the 11th post north... Here's Qkslvr01's view of it. On the one hand, this looks theoretically possible. On the other hand, looking at these photos made me realise this is fairly arbitrary, there's nothing special looking about that post. But I was interested that Qkslvr01 pointed out that there were in fact exactly 11 posts east . I've circled the Garden Center sign. Its design of a three-leafed plant in a four-sided box fits the description of: In the center of four alike Small, split, three-winged and slight This also fits directly with the quote from Pierre that follows: "...what we take to be our strongest tower of delight only stands at the caprice of the minutest event - the falling of a leaf " So maybe the tile/fence comparison fits better like this: That would put the gem close to the second pillar, at the left edge of this stretch of fence. I'm now interested in this corner area... It seems to fit the image in a "whole thing" way, under the canopy of leaves... Here's Qkslvr01's pic of that corner. I'm not sure what that metal stuff is, or when it dates from.

WR, this looks like it almost works, bit im not getting a sense for that big picture feel yet.  I like the way youre checking things off the list. Something that occured to me is a baseball motif.  Camel, rhino, genie are three facing the same direction like 1st, 2nd, 3rd base.  Are they looking towards home?

Re: "checking things off the list", I was wondering if "Small of scale, step across" could be the C of the parking lot... Small C , Scale of C...stepping across from the fountain to that corner...the tip of the rhino's horn.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: So maybe the tile/fence comparison fits better like this: That would put the gem close to the second pillar, at the left edge of this stretch of fence. I'm now interested in this corner area... It seems to fit the image in a "whole thing" way, under the canopy of leaves... Here's Qkslvr01's pic of that corner. I'm not sure what that metal stuff is, or when it dates from. The metal stuff is high voltage lines for the golf course lights, etc. The light post outside the fence has a metal plate stating "high voltage lines".

remember that in 1982 there was no internet. How would Preiss lead one to this spot? wilhouse

...pretty easy to find from the pointers I've already explained if you've got as far as the zoo...

any solution that basically uses the image to find the spot, is a bit of a reach for me. In the found ones the verse leads you to the casque the image to the general area. I dont see why this one would be different.

MF, that was exactly what I was getting at. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: Well, if you go south through the zoo you go right by the great cats area. You have no fear because they are in a moat I'm not relying on the image, I'm exploring the possibility of using clues like: Through the wood no lion fears In the sky the water veers ...to refer to a fountain by Wood. You don't agree, that's fine, whatever. We're all just exploring different approaches. I don't really see how this line fits well with either the big cats or the lion drinking fountain. (I don't think we should assume that, just because the verse mentions the 982, there's a simple trail from there, line by line, one landmark to the next. The other verses don't work that way. You make a big leap from a church to the north of the park down to the train - why shouldn't I jump from the train to the fountain? These puzzles don't all proceed in a straight line; they spin a web across a network of locations.)

Take your task...what we take ...wonder if there's anything in that.

Unknown: Considering Chicago and the trick with "central too", I've been wondering if the location might be between two things, rather than in the middle of four. Eg, in the middle of: If I call (I may be mistaken), "central" was a reference to the train line that runs / ran right next to the casque site. All you needed to find the spot was "The end of ten by thirteen."

Oh, is that right...? I always had the impression that "fence and fixture central too" meant the spot between this fencepost and wall fixture...think I read it somewhere... I've no idea exactly where it really was though. Considering the reliance on the two solved puzzles it's surprising they're not better documented.

Id like to know if there was any agreement between the size of the fixture in the image and where a person would stand to dig while looking at the fixture.

Pretty sure the "fixture" was not in the image. The fence was, though. Perhaps not the fence-post in that photo, however -- there's one a little down the line that has the hoop over it, just like in the painting. It's a guard of sorts, to keep small animals and adventurous children from falling to their deaths on the service road below. It is possible that the fence-post in that photo had one back in 1981.

Im thinking of the larger post in the center of the two fence ends was the fixture.  What fixture are you referring too?

In no sense would the fence post be termed a "fixture." The near-consensus is that the green thingy affixed to the wall was the "fixture."

if you count from the wall to the fence post. there are 3 fence sections If you draw a line from the center of the center one perpendicular to the fence, parallel to the wall. this would be the line the 13 trees would be on. If you drew a line from the fixture perpendicular to the wall and parallel to the fence line. this would be the line the 10 trees would be on. Where these to lines cross, just to the right of the tree, in the photo. that is where the casque was buried. at one point the fence post in the image had a loop over it like the other ones along the fence, if you examine the fence in person you can see where it was attached.

in that image of hermann park above, that's recent. you need to use the old ones I posted. wilhouse

Here's a curious thing - a statue called "Portable Trojan Bear". hxxp://www.houstontx.gov/municipalart/trojanbear.html In 1982 it was "at the corner of Montrose and Bissonnet" which puts it close to the Glassell. (I've just realised that the Glassell is part of Houston's Museum of Fine Arts which is bound to have had fortresses, eg maybe this one . It seems more likely to me now.)

I really like the trojan bear.  That ear section shape and the stone trapazoid shape is one thing, but the center of four alike has a trojan horse kind of look to it.  Meant to look like a horse statue and hidden in the center were soldiers.  Proximity to the Cg Jung center has a point as well.

See V1 thread here .

I was considering the idea of maintaining perspective without rotation of any part of the image.  I think there might be an occasional exception but only when justified for a reason that will be very clear and not something tailored just to make a fit. In this next image, I rotated the map Wilhouse provided to a North is up orientation.  I noticed that the slightly curved line beneath the genie resembles a road segment on the map.  The main angle of the bricks fits the general slope of the cross streets.  If the "block" is an actual block, then the genie might be a "stand here" in the middle of the block kind of instruction.  The genie is looking in a direction towards the jewel on the page.  The relative direction of this jewel from the "block" is congruent with my theory about standing in a specific spot to look south at the Samel Statue.  This is very intriguing at this point.  Some of the observations made by WR are also helping.

I may get the wrath from other longtimers with this post but here goes.  I still do not believe that the location of the jewel in the Image has anything to do with the location of the casque burial site.

fox wrote:: I may get the wrath from other longtimers with this post but here goes.  I still do not believe that the location of the jewel in the Image has anything to do with the location of the casque burial site.   D:) You get my support on that.  It didn't matter in ChiCleve.

longtimer here.  Fox and I have not always agreed in the past, but on this matter we do see eye to eye.  The paintings are not a roadmap.  The jewel is placed artistically in the painting, as are the rest of the elements.  They get you to a theme and a city, not a specific location.  I guess that makes me a "verser".

Thought I'd give it a try.  I feel like jewel placement isn't really a locator either.  It's more of a distraction. Here's something I've been working on that focuses more on the stone sticking out of the ground as representing the casque location next to the tree. I noticed there's a curved trunk tree in the middle of four equally spaced trees with standard upright trunks.  Ignore the red circle.  I'm more inclined to think the above image where you can stand next to another curved trunk tree and look at the Mecom fountain as its central spout lines up with the spot in the middle of the "four alike" (blue line).  The yellow line points at the Sam Houston statue. Something cool about this location is the Old President's house at Rice University sits across the street.  It's an example of Mediterranean Revival architecture.  Fits very well with the theme-scape of this image.

erexere, I've always wondered what that rock was about in the image. I never could find a rock that looked like that.  My question is, what in the verse gets you to where you are looking? wilhouse

Hi wilhouse! I really don't think there's a literal stone that looks like that.  I think it's a representation of something which is sunken.  Estimation tells me that if it's a rectangular stone and about 60% is above the surface.  This might be an application of the Golden Ratio if it is exactly 61.8%. You ask me how the verse gets me to where I'm looking?  I think the verse is clear enough in giving us directions to travel from a northern position in the southerly direction to the 982 train.  From there we walk north along the edge of the wood and lake towards the Pioneer monument where we stop to consider our perspective. If we are to consider that the Sam Houston statue (in the center of four alike: trees) is represented by the camel in the image, then we notice he's facing the wrong direction. In order to fix this we must cross the miniature rail and trek north to the other side of the statue some distance so that when we turn to face south Sam Houston is looking to the left like the camel, rhino, and genie. I think the split where Fannin (two-way) turns into one-way streets Fannin and San Jacinto is the perfect spot to achieve this perspective.  I'm entertaining the theory that this street scenario embodies the ambiguity that Preiss sought through his application of the Pierre: or, the Ambiguities book reference with "our tower of strongest delight".  I also agree with Forest Blight that the "cold as glass" line points to an Ayn Rand passage in Anthem which describes a feel as a hand touches a train rail.  I wonder if the rail we are to follow here is the logarithmic spiral which extends out eventually towards the Fannin split, also the spot depicted by the bright star in the image.

knowing what I know about Preiss, I doubt he would have used logarithms... wilhouse

I wouldn't stress the need to use a logarithm really its just putting rectangles together in a special case that simulates a logarithm.  This is a fascinating idea, and has been used before, reference the TV show Criminal Minds, Season 4, episode 8.

again, knowing the little bit I know about Preiss, this is a guy who flew around the country with a shovel.  You're not going to need to use rectangles, or any math, to solve these. wilhouse

I find this to be very non-math and more of a photography perspective.  Let's not forget Preiss traveled around the country with a camera.  I'm discovering that the spiral is a tool used in art and architecture.  A geometric strategy might be the breakthrough we need for this particular image.  Using a city map and using a standard drafting compass you can construct this shape after picking an area and fitting in the rectangles of proper proportion. I use this example in the picture as a clue that we should try this. and here is a better rendition using Adobe Lightroom 4 (free trial).

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Here's a curious thing - a statue called "Portable Trojan Bear". hxxp://www.houstontx.gov/municipalart/trojanbear.html In 1982 it was "at the corner of Montrose and Bissonnet" which puts it close to the Glassell. (I've just realised that the Glassell is part of Houston's Museum of Fine Arts which is bound to have had fortresses, eg maybe this one . It seems more likely to me now.) WR, I'm one step closer to being inclined to think you've found the right mark.  The head of the bear with it's pronounced nose being represented by the tilted stone.  I like it most because of the old location you've cited and that from that street corner view you can clearly see the St. Paul Presbyterian Church tower. I've wondered if he likened the tower to a 1981 board game called Dark Tower.

I remember that. It's a good further indicator that the Glassell Museum is the "cold as Glass" wilhouse

Do you remember Orson Welles doing the TV ad commercial?

if  you're talking about the dark tower board game, no. But you can buy one unopened on ebay for $600 wilhouse

I may have come through on this one.  To explain, some things that bothered me a lot in terms of a map overlay is 1) the previous two solves didn't really use the method and 2) the star and the red stone in the image didn't seem to be good indicators of real world markers (i.e. it required forcing to make any sense).  The Golden Spiral idea seems to really fit this image but the choice of where to place this 1.0000:1.1618 ratio rectangle seemed arbitrary.  Going with the entire border is sufficient for this exercise, but it is also possible that the star and red stone are line intersecting points, thus I easily placed the rectangle in a non-arbitrary way to meet this condition and it seems to indicate a point of interest marked by the red dot.  Some minor eyeballing adjustments were needed to resize the aerial, but the proportions look pretty close, which is all that's needed for a person to pinpoint a smallish area for a closer inspection of the grounds for any kind of further indicator.  Looking for a "Whistle" clue or a "Spout" seems like a good place to start.

I'm nervous cause that area was all dug up. wilhouse

Yeah, I feel like it's a slim chance in hell that we'll ever see that casque.  It would be great if you get a chance, maybe you could go on a mission "operation spiral" and take a dozen eye level pictures or so in a 360 from a spot centered on that spot.  Maybe we'll see something that makes sense.

I was just reading about the RMS Titanic which used two story tall reciprocating steam pistons.  It had two 4-piston engines behind it's three wing-propeller system (a smaller center propeller and two larger on the port and starboard sides).  Perhaps it's not likely we should view the 23 foot diameter propellers as what Preiss had in mind with "three winged, slight," which isn't my intention here.  What I'm looking at is the similarity in the basic piston attached to a wheel shape which is typical in the design of a steam locomotive.  Here's my crude drawing of the system in a vertical orientation. Preiss gave Houston's map of the Hermann Park area some kind of consideration when he submitted his instructions and photo to Palencar.  If he thought about Melville and Rand, might he have also thought about whales, ships, trains, fountains, and other things of epic proportion.  I don't see any real parallel between the 982 and the Titanic, other than both using steam.  All I'm trying to justify is the sense that he might have intended a start path (first three lines of verse1) from a point north of Sam Houston, which then continues south to the 982 and then turns back north again to a spot near the Miller Outdoor Theater, i.e. a reciprocating path.

Image 8, Hermann Park. I came up with the inferred theme of how this casque is located based on the Melville book Moby Dick.  Early in the story, Ahab nails a gold coin to the Pequod's mainmast and promises it as reward to the first person to spy the great white whale, Moby Dick. I'm really sorry if this causes anyone to have a brain hemorrhage. [spoiler]Gold and spy whale = Golden Spiral[/spoiler]

Howdy So I made a trip to Houston in August and I covered the whole park with my phone camera. Trying to imagine the park in 82 is probably one of the hardest parts of this treasure. These are some observations I made but not exactly in the following order. One of the first things I did when I got there was imagine I was in front of the old train 982. The train is gone but with this old aerial I was able to put myself there. From here I decide to go north through the woods. Now the park lost a lot of trees to renovation and disease and recently to drought. But even with that many lost trees the area north of old 982 train is still wooded. In 1982 it must have looked like a true forest. I also think the line "through the wood no lion fears" means that you go in the direction where there is "no lion(s)". As I am walking through the woods I notice the ground is familiar. Now this could just be a coincidence but I thought I should mention this: As I am flipping through my book I find this This puppet was a djinn or genie on the ground with a casque. This picture strongly resembles the ground where I am walking on. The whole area has big beautiful oaks and they are scattered. I try to find four that stand out but I see none. Next I cross the mini train tracks. This is the "small of scale step across" line. Now the train moved a bit and I didn't know this until I got back. However, I think that even with the move I would still end up near or right next to the Miller theater. Now as for the verse "Perspective must not be lost" This must mean that the either the train or the tracks must be still within eye sight. The theater is really not far from both. This is where I started to see things from the book. I think some of these were already pointed out but I present them here together with my findings. The blocks from the theater The paving/sand stone looks old this of course: "looking back from treasure ground, there's the spout a whistle sounds." The whistle is the train, which has been running since the 80s and probably before. The spout is this: Which I think was replaced a few times but should basically be the same. I think this is what Preiss saw. Now for the final clues to dig "In the center of four alike small, split three winged and slight" Here Preiss was describing trees. But not just any tree. he park is filled with oaks and other types of trees but  I could only find these in the direct vicinity of the theater next to the sand stone area with picnic tables. These trees are smaller than oaks, split in the trunk and are slight or thinner than trees around them. They also have leaves that can be described as "three winged" I think I have it narrowed down. I will detail later how I plan to proceed but I just wanted to get this theory out here to the soldiers that have been in the trenches for a while. If anyone is interested in my Houston pics you can find them here: hxxp://s1070.photobucket.com/albums/u497/rookhunter/ (they're a bit jumbled with other hunts and pictures I took in NO)

Interesting stuff. What about the djinn hat, the horizontal totems and the animal heads? wilhouse

Wilhouse,  I don't think the totemsor animals are visual clues.  I think they might have clues in them like the rhino horn, but I think those are either references to the zoo or just part of the art.  As for the hat, I've always been inclined to think the hat is the theater:

I can see the hat as the theater.  I also see it as the elf in childrens zoo.

I've always thought it was too concidental that the djinn, coming out of a water spout in the picture is wearing an identical hat to the elf which is a fountain and has water coming out of him. wilhouse

Wilhouse, i see you used a GPR in the zoo. what kind of gpr did you use? wha software did you use for the results? have you looked into building one on your own? i think the technlogy is there for someone to build one but you need to be well versed in engineering.

you'll have to look at the photos I posted to see the brand. We borrowed one from a local company that does underground analysis.  The views were bad cause there's so much stuff underground (pipe, cables, etc).  No idea about what software. No I haven't thought at all about building one. Seems like a lot of work... wilhouse

hxxp://www.mediafire.com/view/?oo86s8w26cs9jf8 hxxp://www.mediafire.com/view/?4c1qqas47taknu1 hxxp://www.mediafire.com/view/?gedcibe8beb6zuc Rockhunter... I saw your spout and thought, "How unique!" Then yesterday, it made the above jump out to me (it is right next to my parking spot at work); so, I took some pics and did some figurative digging. I'd never noticed it before. According to the landlord, the building and that "spout" have been here since 1983. It made me think that the "spout" you referenced is common, and probably looked the same as any replacement (is 1997 the date of that spicket?) when the book was published.

Question . Those are spigots or valves, are valves considered spouts if there is no place for the water to come out?

the book came out in 1982 and if there's no water released there's no spout. wilhouse

On page 826 of Moby Dick there is an instance of the word spout with an exclaimation point. I think the simplest idea is to perceive some feature that has a whales spout description.  Any fountain shooting a vertical torrent or something shaped like a bushel of wheat (as Melville describes).  Even a tree has that bristly top shape like water when it turns downward after reaching its height.

the aqua tunnel had an aerator in it that makes the water return look like a spout. I posted some pics a while ago. wilhouse

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here, so please pay attention to this muddled conception. On some level, images are relating to other images.  Perhaps it's part of the overall methodology and a way to nudge us in the right direction.  I think this 90 degree rotated shape is similar to Milwuakee where the shape of a tree trunk and is primary branches is a 90 degree rotation in the black cape.  This one is a little more tricky since it has some image elements overlaying or crossing the boundaries, in other words the shape of a tree extends through some of these lines: I like how the choice of having the primary columns shadow go through this tree and look very similar to a strong consideration for a marker I'm relating to image 9, the Hollow Tree, Don't be confused by this, just accept that it's an unnecessary addition to the image to corral our minds in the general direction of some of the better known visual markers.

I'm thinking that the djinn and the ruby are a relative position clue. The trick is seeing that the hat of the djinn is much like the shape of the Miller Outdoor theater and then seeing that you have to run a line from the theater through a curved path that actually fits the train track shape and then into an area with large trees.  That line is roughly the line taken when you connect base of the djinn and the ruby.

Can we think of the decorated colums as a "finial"?

erexere wrote:: I'm thinking that the djinn and the ruby are a relative position clue. Yet none of the found images had positional clues in the images.  The gem in the image did not relate to the casque location, But they did have site locater images, images you could see from the casque.

True, I think it's worth a try with this new scenario.  The literary reference from Pierre is about taking something commonplace and then finding some small and special significance in it. I think the columns with adorned tops represent finials and is a clue about the acorn. What do you think, does a lion look like an acorn?

erexere wrote:: What do you think, does a lion look like an acorn? Easy enough to check pull up Google image search and put in the search term "Lion Acorn" If many people think Lion goes with /looks like Acorn, there will be results showing, Acorn lions or Lion shaped Acorns or Acorn with lion mane. if you just get links for lions and links for acorns separately then know people don't associate the two. For instance try it with Acorn Button, and you will see lots of results of Acorns shaped like buttons, or buttons shaped like acorns or acorns used as buttons. However Lions and Acorns don't seem to mix.

Hmm...from what I read about acorns there's an interesting history about "man eating acorns".  It was even used as a substitute for coffee during times of rationing.  Native Americans gathered them and stored them for food.

erexere wrote:: You're copping out with that argument.  You don't know that he didn't bury something out in the open. Actually somewhere back in the past posts I wrote a whole section on how burying out in the open wasn't likely and all the reasons why including a sudden hole/dirt  appearing in a lawn would most likely be investigated and dug up immediately by grounds keepers. The odds on being stopped while digging go up astronomically. and the likelihood of not being able to find the exact spot again once the evidence of digging disappeared. you can eliminate all that by finding a spot in a more hidden area, near something. I went on for quite a while and I pretty much stand by it. Next your assumption that a line drawn through the center of the whole to the head points at a single spot is faulty, that would be true if  the hill was sloped up moving away from the statue. but it is sloped downward. meaning the "spot" would actually be an "area" imagine shining a flashlight directly at a perpendicular wall - you get a spot. but shine it obliquely, you get a long oval. and  eyeballing the center of the hole in the statue is problematic.  Its 171 feet from the peak to the statue an error of an inch would move your location by feet. Remember no laser pointers to make the job easier. even deciding which of your eyes you sighted through would change the location on the ground significantly. you would basically be able to draw a huge oval on the ground.  even a change of a few feet effectively geometrically squaring the amount of earth you will need to move to search. So now I am not copping out I'm saying directly that's a very unlikely spot to bury it much less find it if its there.

Okay, you make good points only not all apply without close inspection of the site.  The extreme option of using a precision tool such as a laser pointer is worth noting, but Preiss admitted that if someone provided enough details to prove they were close he would validate their find.  He was willing to account for his own errors apparently.  My assumption isn't assumption nor faulty where two fixed points make a line.  An oval would make an area, especially over a gradient, but this specific situation calls for a point apex and a point center to direct us to a 1 or 2 foot diameter dig hole.  The actual variance or error allowed in this situation should be determined by an on site analysis.  Estimation of error with only the distance variable and not knowing the precise gradient makes the thought experiment inconclusive.  I wouldnt use that to support any arguments until more facts could be included.  Lets see if we can gather more information, estimated or exact height of Atropos and Miller apex and hill slope will help. Also, photographic evidence supports a worn foot trail leading from the back side straight to the Atropos Key.  At the time of burying ther might have been a packed or worn dirt only path.  The evidence of a recently buried object might have been negligible t the time.  The park was notably poorly maintained at the time according to the park history records.  I don't know what the soil conditions were like then.  The area is groomed grass now and no evidence of a trail is discernable.  Soil mustve been added and new grass planted.

well just doing math in my head and  Going with 171 feet to the statue. guesing a 2 foot tall hole in the statue Id say depending on the slope way from the statue a spot anywhere from 10 - 50 feet long. and with the distinct lack of site confirmer images  Id say the CZ is a much better bet.

Atropos looks like its almost 12 feet tall.  Estimate 9 or 10 feet for that point?  The tip of the theater from the base of Atropos is about a 40 foot rise over 136 feet distance.  Going down that slope might protract into the trees!  You're right about there being a lot of range in that dista nce variable based on slight degree difference.  I suggest we get someone over there who is willing to lay on their belly with head close to ground and use a pair of binoculars. There's a super tall lamp at the base of the hill.  My guess is it was there in 81.  I can't accurately guess where this spot could be.  Here's the best I can come up with from streetview. Imagine my ovals are on a straight line. I'm guessing that hill isn't more than 20 feet high from it's base.  Our spot might actually be right near the base of the tall light tower. I refreshed the image to include my hand art. I think this location motif of lining up the apex in the atropos is like lining something up in the crosshairs.  The star looks like that.

Im really warming up to the idea that the djinni wearing the head covering borrows from the Indiana Jones idea.

Indjiana Djones?

erexere wrote:: Indjiana Djones? Thanks for my first really hard laugh of the day, E!

Honestly I don't seriously believe this, but I'm continuing to find it a convenient visual...

I know... but saying Indjiana Djones out loud makes me laugh.

Atropos uses scissors to cut the threads of those done living. Whose shears?  Atropos'. "Hoosiers"?

I found a visual clue supporting visual that places the camera at the foot of the Atropos Key statue.  I  thought I linked the shape to the moon bench at one time but learned the bench sculpture wasn't installed till years after this hunt began.  Looking through photos of the Atropos Key I found tthat you could view the Theater through the circular cutout in its mid section and the peaked rooftop makes an exact fit to the shape of the dune in background.  Certainly not proof perfect but it requires no manipulation and wysiswyg meets the minimum requirement for what would support the apex through face to spot at base of light tower idea. Another observation that I haven't figured out yet is why are only two of the columns casting shadows?  Then a third shadow is cast by the genie.  These shadows are very long indicating a very low sun which is relative to a long horizon or a hill top.  Anyone else notice anything special about that?

erexere wrote:: I found a visual clue supporting visual that places the camera at the foot of the Atropos Key statue.  I  thought I linked the shape to the moon bench at one time but learned the bench sculpture wasn't installed till years after this hunt began.  Looking through photos of the Atropos Key I found tthat you could view the Theater through the circular cutout in its mid section and the peaked rooftop makes an exact fit to the shape of the dune in background.  Certainly not proof perfect but it requires no manipulation and wysiswyg meets the minimum requirement for what would support the apex through face to spot at base of light tower idea. Another observation that I haven't figured out yet is why are only two of the columns casting shadows?  Then a third shadow is cast by the genie.  These shadows are very long indicating a very low sun which is relative to a long horizon or a hill top.  Anyone else notice anything special about that?

I just noticed that the Lincoln Memorial shares a similar layout to that of Hermann Park with circle and reflecting pool.

GaryLeeLoveBuckets" post="416341549 wrote:: I believe what he later said when pressed about it was "All I can say is I." Because of how strange it is, I'm wondering if it is, itself a clue.  Could the second "I" be a Roman numeral 1?  There's two I can point out, one in the middle of the orb pillar and one near the top of the camel pillar. Unknown: and the concept of individuality has been eliminated (for example, the use of the word "I" is punishable by death). I posted this at the Awful Forums, but you guys should have a crack at it. HOUSTON HOUSTON, WE HAVE A DEVELOPMENT HERE OK, something I just noticed, looking back through the thread.  Someone mentioned that "cold as glass" in the verse that's supposed to be for Houston refers to a line in Anthem that mentions train tracks. At one point, Preiss was pressed as to where the cask was.  I cannot find the quote right now, but his hint was, "All I can say is "I"". All this time, everyone has thought that he was referring to the I shaped section of Hermann Park or the I shaped pillars in the image.  I went back to look at the synopsis for Anthem and this jumped out at me. f**k, I've got goosebumps now.  I think we need to go read Anthem.  This is the first time I've seen any connection to Houston and Anthem.

the Miller Outdoor Theater looks like a pyramid.  Seems like a good link to the illustration which doesn't have pyramids, but has stone work like that of a pyramid on the ground and a desert background.

I keep leaning toward Tranquility Park these days. My biggest problem with any of the locations though, is the lack of findable clues.  We don't really find the imagery in the painting anywhere.  I can point to you things that suggest Tranquility Park, and I can point to things that say Hermann Park.  But both places have significant details in the pictures that just don't exist in that location.

Still sticking with wilhouse on this one. He has pretty much nailed down all that can be nailed down.

Thats true, so far I have seen nothing that fits better than what Wilhouse came up with.

Help. Has the roof pattern of the Miller Outdoor Theater been altered significantly since 1980?  While looking for architectural similarities between the metal beams and those used in railroad construction I just noticed it has what looks like a spider web pattern. For some reason I keep thinking of Atropos and a spider-web as something that go together.  Not sure why.

erexere wrote:: Help. Has the roof pattern of the Miller Outdoor Theater been altered significantly since 1980?  While looking for architectural similarities between the metal beams and those used in railroad construction I just noticed it has what looks like a spider web pattern. For some reason I keep thinking of Atropos and a spider-web as something that go together.  Not sure why. There was extensive work done to the roof. I cannot say for certain but the probability looks good that it was at least altered in some way. I see you found your way to SomethingAwful They are very spirited over there. I like it.

Thanks.  Yes, I'm reborn like a cancerous troll...only I'm blue and streetwise. The roof sure looks like rails of traintrack were used on it.

Did that change the height or thickness of the roofline? wouldn't that change your sightline? and give an (more) erroneous location

maltedfalcon wrote:: Did that change the height or thickness of the roofline? wouldn't that change your sightline? and give an (more) erroneous location Absolutely.  Its a mess, but I'm hoping its still fixed on the central line, no deeper than originally buried and approximately where a lucky prober will sense a thuddy clunk.

I think there only a very small chance that the Houston casque is recoverable.  I only just read that the Miller Hill was actually raised in 2009.  Previously I read notes that it was only regraded on the seating side to create a steeper seating arrangement and open the inner field for additional seating. Maybe someone can find out more specifics on the hill improvements.  Could it be that they just dumped a bunch of new dirt on it, graded it, and put new sod?  Was the top layer fully scraped off first?  Where did the new irrigation improvements get placed?  Was additional electrical conduit needed for the new lights?  Seems to me there was a lot of trenching to go with the new hill. Now I know how Wilhouse feels.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Thats true, so far I have seen nothing that fits better than what Wilhouse came up with. erexere wrote:: Help. Has the roof pattern of the Miller Outdoor Theater been altered significantly since 1980?  While looking for architectural similarities between the metal beams and those used in railroad construction I just noticed it has what looks like a spider web pattern. I don't know, did he really come up with something that fits? Sure, there were similarities here and there.  But we leapt to "the 982" being the locomotive very quickly.  Now, I have to say that it is very persuasive and I've yet to see anything else that matches.  However, everything after that is shoehorned in, despite the fact that nothing else in the park looks much like anything else in the photo.  Sure, I can see the outline of a locomotive in the shadow of the Djinn, and I can see how the pillar and ball look like the reflecting pond and circle in the park, and that weird thing on the tile in the corner is the universal symbol for railroad... and so on.  But is there really undeniable truth there?  Wilhouse really reached trying to prove that things were in the Children's Zoo. Personally, I never saw anything that led directly to the zoo.  The 982 was always stationed outside of the zoo, and no one has ever shown me how you get from the 982 to inside the zoo by reading the verse.  Sure, there's a camel and a rhino, and maybe that means the zoo, but it could mean many other things as well.  People point out the Rhino head sign in the zoo -- but that wasn't there in 1982. Bottom line: wilhouse was so sure it was in the Children's Zoo that he damn near dug up the whole thing.  I admire that he had that much tenacity and will to get it done, but what if he was wrong?  What if he was so convinced it was there, he used the very cryptic wordings and drawings to "prove" it to everyone?  What if Preiss's comment about digging in the zoo meant that he didn't think it was a total waste of time -- because maybe we'd stop looking there or maybe we'd do some work that needed to be done to rebuild the zoo -- and that he couldn't promise what we'd find because he honestly didn't know what might be buried there?  That makes more sense to me than him implying that someone should dig there.  He never even comes close to saying "yes, dig" or "you might find the treasure there".  In the past, both in Cleveland and Chicago, when people got very close, he was pretty open about telling them they'd found the spot. I challenge everyone to go back and read through this thread.  The "fact" that it's in Hermann Park was established very early and very quickly without much discussion.  Later, we get into some cryptic cartwheels to continue to justify it.  Maybe it was buried there.  But considering how much effort has been put into Hermann Park, I'd say it's not a bad idea to look elsewhere in Houston. No, it hasn't.  I can't find any of the historical photos I've seen of it, but it's pretty obvious when you look through old photos and old aerial imagery that it hasn't changed significantly since it was built.

I'm worried there might have been some chance destruction of the casque from trenching irrigation or electrical lines and then some additional soil along with just minor adjustments to the angle from the face slit of the statue and the apex horn of the theater that there's just way too much variation to pinpoint. I'm grumpy too. I'm set on Hermann Park because there are worthy visual matches.  The pier stone being my favorite.  The literary quote from Piere being my second favorite.  The 982 has one heck of a punch when you consider the lat / long and some train-type hintings.  Any hint is a shoehorn in this game.  I totally appreciate you're thoughts and I'm even open to considering non-Hermann park ideas.  I once had my eyes set on a field where blimps landed just a tad to the north.  I even thought the First Tower on Fannin had some really cool visual characteristics to the brick perspective and column proportions in the far background.

magic carpet:___________::locomotive:track

erexere wrote:: magic carpet:___________::locomotive:track Air?

Unknown: mid-13c., "rich cloth" (often, but not necessarily, bright red), from a shortened form of Old French escarlate "scarlet (color), top-quality fabric" (12c., Modern French écarlate), from Medieval Latin scarlatum "scarlet, cloth of scarlet" (also source of Italian scarlatto, Spanish escarlate), probably via a Middle Eastern source (cf. Arabic siqillat "fine cloth"), from Medieval Greek and ultimately from Late Latin sigillatus "clothes and cloth decorated with small symbols or figures," literally "sealed," past participle of sigillare, from the root of sign (n.). I was aiming for "sky", but "air" works. Looking again at the LotJ, "The Ruby out of Araby:  Scarlet of desert sky at dawn." Looking at the etymology entry on the word 'scarlet' yields: I wonder if the 'fabric' context of the word fits with the magic carpet as it relates very well to the hill of the Miller Outdoor Theater, since people generally sit and snuggle on blankets while they enjoy the free show. hxxp://milleroutdoortheatre.com/seating/

erexere wrote:: magic carpet:___________::locomotive:track where does magic carpet come from?

My initial attention on the magic carpet comes from nothing other than the Arabian folklore.  After awhile I started to see the columns in the image as things supporting things, which is essentially what columns do anyway.  A column of twisting air (maybe it's water) is supporting the djinn.  Well, a magic carpet carries one up into the air as well. Maybe the djinn is folding his arms and thinking, "damn, who took my carpet?"

Hirudiniforme wrote:: where does magic carpet come from? Unknown: Now, in the eternal whirlwinds above Persia's Mountains of Kaf, appeared a caravan of magic wrought carpets, and upon them rode the banished elder spirits of Araby: monstrous Deevs, desert-born giants; the Peri, bright and beautiful as starlight; and the wish-granting Djinn, formed of smokeless fire, at last free from Man's lamps and bottles. Unknown: The fabulous carpet weaving techniques of the Djinn and Peri were admired and then mastered by the people who were their neighbors in the vast and pleasant desert regions of the New World's Southwest. (It was the sort of place to which the Spirits of Araby were naturally attracted). Unknown: Like many fabulous, fantastic tales told by Native Americans, this Nootka legend appears to contain some historical truth. The part about the horses, for instance, sounds factual enough...Thus, the tale may explain the mysterious disappearance of the Fair People. It's from the introduction. The Passage to the New World The Vanishing The carpet story helps to fictionally tie this desert image to the American Southwest. (I think that's probably all there is to it.) hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_United_States The section in the introduction I find most baffling is the lengthy anecdote about Yo-Rib and the horse-stealing. I don't know where BP got this horse-stealing stuff from, but it sounds like he was thinking of some particular episode. (Incidentally I just noticed that the Mountains of Kaf were mythical mountains made of emerald; doubt it has any significance though.)

...or its a reference to the magic theater of Hermann Hesse' novel Steppenwolf which lends its name to the band that sings "Magic Carpet Ride". (P.S. I know most of what I have to offer is complete bullshit.)

Here is my rough attempt to draw the outline of Texas. I also think the county of Harris which includes Houston is outlined at the right. There ought to be something in the genies shadow but not found anything yet.

Herman: My Park Revelation A bit of sad news, at least for me. I was attempting to dig on my final dig spot for Herman park but my plans fell through. I had posted before that my final dig spot was clear to me but was waiting to dig to reveal it. I also wanted to get photos of the area to back up my claim before I even asked to dig. Well right before I go to the archives to look for photos I stop by the park to just to see it. To my disappointment the dig spot and the area around it is under heavy construction. This was my final dig spot (circle on the shadow). It was between 4 original trees that were there in the 80s. The other trees directly north were not there in the 80s and you can clearly see the age difference on google maps. My interpretation was that they were the "four alike". The entire area is gone, the Houston Garden Center, the botanical gardens, the fountain that looked like the fairy in the image...all gone. I even got a little desperate and asked some men at the site to dig but they looked at me like I was crazy. To me that was where the Houston treasure was/is. The star was to me that which "falls gently in December night" The spout I posted before was lined up to that spot and the light pole that hangs above it was the crack in the image sand stone. Now I could be wrong, Ill still look for those photos to back me up but with the construction tearing everything up, it probably wont ever be recoverable. I also posted i this album https://www.flickr.com/photos/98431844@N08/ some photos of the Miller Theater. The sandstone area reminded me of the "rectangular plot" from Cleveland, old but contained and anything that might have been buried there would most likely be still there. (for how long, I can't say but they are doing much renovation). One tree seemed very old and thick. So anyways there you have it, my Houston hunt wrapped up. I will now focus on Charleston, Boston and maybe Roanoke.

rookhunter wrote:: The entire area is gone, the Houston Garden Center, the botanical gardens, the fountain that looked like the fairy in the image...all gone The Garden Center gone...? Really...? Bad luck Rookhunter; I liked your Houston theory. Onwards and upwards. (Or downwards.)

Herman Park is in South Central Houston. Here is the Google map of the district outlined in pink. or you can get a dotted outline with satellite view. hxxp://goo.gl/maps/jVkUt The bottom of this pillar is the Greater Third Ward. BTW, you can explore the zoo in Streetview and even go inside some of the buildings.

Has anyone ever thought that the iconic building being depicted in this image could be Pennzoil Place? Can they be seen at all from Hermann Park? I ask because there are blocks shaped like Pennzoil Place in the center of this image, and Pennzoil Place is very specifically shaped to play with PERSPECTIVE. Perhaps the directions to cross the track require you to keep Pennzoil Place in the same perspective as in the image? hxxp://i.imgur.com/9LCCNzv.png https://www.flickr.com/photos/telwink/6043847393/

Since you mention perspective, here is image 8 with some perspective lines drawn. Their convergence on the far left sand dune is known as the vanishing point. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_point Notice that this vanishing point is within the image and not outside. So the instruction in verse 1 which says "Perspective should not be lost" may be very significant. Note also the perspective line to the rhino's eye. One other line which is not part of this perspective is the line I have drawn through the columns behind the low wall at the rear of the terrace. (8838)

wk wrote:: Since you mention perspective, here is image 8 with some perspective lines drawn. Their convergence on the far left sand dune is known as the vanishing point. (8838) pretty sure at some point wilhouse found those sand dunes as a physical entity near the childrens zoo, you should check with him

Wilhouse did you use a GPR to look through the concrete? Or was that just a proposal?

I'm just going to say this right now. Who loves near Houston. Tell me if this has been already asked so I don't bother anyone else. Just in case I know who to communicate with.

Hermann Park trails I think I can match the roads or trails inside Herman Park with the leaf branches in the foliage over the rhino head. I originally used a mirror image of a black and white historic map from Texwriter's website: txtreasurehunter.net but there is a good 1982 topographic map of the roads from USGS: hxxp://store.usgs.gov/ - click on Map Locator - Zoom in on Houston - add a marker by clicking on the italic word Bellaire to see a list of maps with various dates and resolutions - then download a 1982 zipped pdf file. Now mirror the image 8 so that the tree branches are at the top left. The two hanging branches over the rhino head are Hermann Park Dr. and/or the Marvin Taylor Exercise Trail. To get the correct scale, the lower branch across the rhino totem seems to match N MacGregor Way to the south of the zoo. There is also a Braes Bayou Trail here which is interesting. (9010)

I live in houston. I would love to be of any help that I can. I'm doing research on this now. It seems that I quite late in joining this quest as I just learned of this book. I have a lot of research to do!!

I came to an abstraction that the tall column with the sphere on end could be a pool stick as it strikes the cue ball. This might be far off the rails as a theory, but take a moment and consider some dual purpose options. If we take our task to the nine eight two, which we know well is the 982 train, we could also entertain the abstraction that pool balls are numbered. The task in this case would be to pocket the balls. I also wondered how we connect the Fair Folk of Araby with Texas in a word based way. How about TEXtile? Tapestries and finely woven rugs or the legendary magic carpet come to mind. A fabric or felt. Pool tables have felt. Roofs have felt. Remember the water veers? The asphalt or tar infused fabric on a roof diverts the water. Playing pool properly involves knowing how to aim and strike the cue ball correctly so the object ball(s) go where intended. Dots or diamonds on the top edges of the table help a player estimate complex outcomes. A pool table is covered by felt. Pool balls historically were made from ivory, giving this abstraction a little play in terms of exotic animals as trophies.

something nice and simple... Using the mirrored image 8, and a map of Herman Park, consider the relative position of these three items: star, pillar, stone sphere at top. if the large stone pillar symbolises the long lake, and the stone sphere represents the circular Sam Houston Monument, then what is at the position of the star? Oh, a planetarium! As confirmation, the stone sphere is not sitting exactly on the pillar. It is very slightly out of alignment. Next, zooming in very closely on the map, notice that the memorial feature is slightly out of alignment too. https://goo.gl/maps/MmbFo (9146)

remember to consider though in 1982 the "Long Lake" didnt look much like it does now.

Oh yeah. It looked all ragged and naturalesque back then didnt it? Perhaps another trick of time and coincidence that it looks like such a good fit now. The case with many of my past theories, I have to act not so surprised when they turn out to be wrong.

Hi Folks, My name is Dave...i will be going out to Hermann Park on saturday August 8th 2015. If you would like to join me on the search...please let me know.

Hi Dave. I have my doubts that its location is easy or digable. Good luck in your search.

I've been chatting with wilhouse to see if he wants to go out to Hermann Park this Saturday August 8th 2015. I plan on getting there pretty early in the morning. Im exploring some new leds and plan on digging in one or two spots. Wish us luck...may the treasure hunting gods shine down on us.

Sounds really cool. Don't let Wilhouse take you to any subterranean tunnels below the ancient site of the Children's Zoo.

Wilhouse won't be able to make it saturday but i have recruited some of my family and students for saturdays trip to hermann park.

Good luck, have fun, and take plenty of photos! I haven't spent a lot of time on the Houston casque, but I hope your efforts are fruitful. The community needs a win after all the years put into this search.

Echoing what has already been said. Get in there and find some treasure. Good luck

Good luck - dig one up!

Our first dig this morning at the childrens zoo in 95 degree heat didn't reveal anything. We took the rest of the afternoon exploring the next area to dig. We are waiting from the parks board to get approval for the second location because it is in a high traffic area. Just got home...and going through the photos we took. We may wait till september to search the second site when the tempertures cool down. It got up to 105 this afternoon.

Photos from my dig on saturday at the zoo The depth of the hole was almost 3 feet.

when I try to upload something to the site I get this error: Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached. how are others posting pics? wilhouse

Wilhouse, I'm using an image hosting service called photobucket. You can use other's like Flickr, etc. When I post a link it uses an image tag syntax with a nested url, [quote] [ url=hxxp://s11.photobucket.com/user/erexere/media/thoughtson%20image%208_zpsnoylkvxr.png.html ][ img ]hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/erexere/thoughtson%20image%208_zpsnoylkvxr.png[ /img ][ /url ][ /quote ]

This is interesting. Pente was an early 80's boardgame. It was made of two colors of glass tokens and a playing mat/board. This game came also came packaged in a cool cardboard roll tube. My interest in this is that I wonder if Byron wanted us to pickup on this game as a hint for one or two possible thought associations: Pente = Pentagon = a literal fortress, shaped like a five sided polygon, or a hint for a star Tube = a telescope = a tool used for star gazing Note the coincidental shape of the odd leaf/ghost shapes and the patterns on the Pente box.

I remember Pente. I used to play it in high school on my dad's Go board. I don't think it has anything to do with The Secret, though.

forest_blight wrote:: I remember Pente. I used to play it in high school on my dad's Go board. I don't think it has anything to do with The Secret, though. Are you seeing the similarity of the three pronged shape? Check this ebay link: hxxp://www.ebay.com/itm/like/2014024175 ... ps&lpid=82 You'll see the game tube that I suspect is a hint for thinking about telescopes.

I'm not seeing it, e. The shapes you mention are larkspurs, the birth flower for this image.

forest_blight wrote:: I'm not seeing it, e. The shapes you mention are larkspurs, the birth flower for this image. I hadn't thought about the larkspur as a birthflower connection. Here's a better side by side, don't you find this pattern similar to the larkspur?

Well, we know for sure that the shapes are larkspurs, given what we know about the themes built into The Secret. For the same shape to pull double-duty as an obscure hint to Pente would be asking too much, I think. But that's just my opinion.

Ok. I can appreciate that input. I hope it didnt look like I was saying it didnt look like larkspur. I just made the association that the Pente (1977-) game fit a number of characteristics that meet a pattern and are consistent with timeline pre 1981. Double duty isnt the best argument against any particular idea. I was of course looking for quintuple duty here, so that might be a red flag.

I should have prefaced my latest agenda as being more involved with the cultural connection and the constraint or hints that may be present in the LotJ for each jewel. My assertion is that the Ruby of Araby involves a major connection to the sky. I've recognized a connection between Arabian astronomy, Arabian star names in the Constellation Ursa Major and a couple cross cultural connections which will take some more explaining. Atropos is unmoveable, unturning by the Greek language definition. Polaris may also fit that description in literal observation and the analogy to a fortress, which is an unmoving or unyielding stronghold and those who are unwelcomed must move around since they cant pass through. I made the claim before that the Keepers Dubhe and Merak are pointers to Polaris. I think this sky based idea is the method used to link two points in search of the casque.

I think this is a big five with a smaller 2 superscripted to say "five squared" which is twenty-five. I think this is our pacing clue. It's on this column base, because we begin at the Atropos Key and pace towards the large light tower at the base of the hill. This action maintains perspective on the two object points behind us, since they don't move either way right or left while we count off paces. The spot at roughly twenty-five paces is fine tuned by locating the tip of Miller Outdoor Theater in the exact center of the diamond of Atropos. This is seen at ground level...by looking through a Pente roll tube.

For those who are interested....i started a group on FACEBOOK for the Houston search. Just go to the Search box and type in " The Secret A Treasure Hunt (Houston) Byron Preiss ". I figured it would be a good place for the Houston treasure hunters to chat, post images and get to know others in the area. I wanted to have a place to post my pictures, talk about my theories, and let others follow what I have been doing lately.

HoustonTxDave wrote:: I figured it would be a good place for the Houston treasure hunters to chat, post images and get to know others in the area. I wanted to have a place to post my pictures, talk about my theories, and let others follow what I have been doing lately. The only reason I could see that would be different than here, is that since you are the admin of your new FB page you are in control of the conversation... why not just use quest4treasure?

maltedfalcon wrote:: The only reason I could see that would be different than here, is that since you are the admin of your new FB page you are in control of the conversation... why not just use quest4treasure? Well, there are other reasons I can think of, some of which are really good reasons. Here's the thing though... It's infuriating when to me when a noob comes in to the forum, reads all the information that has been tried and toiled and researched for literally decades, and then runs of to start a forum where none of the information is shared back with Q4T. See, they come in, gleen all the information needed to bring them up to speed, and then dash to continue the search in secret. Now if you, Malted, wanted to go start (or be part of) a FB page that didn't share back, I wouldn't care. You have contributed so much, much more than you could ever take. Even if none of it ever turns out to be fruitful to a solve, your presence and critique over the years is of great value.

The FB page doesnt bother me. We might wait and see if the clean slate approach moves things forward or not. I like Dave's effort. That doesnt mean I think hes going about the puzzle the right way, but I can tell he has the determination and the benifit of being a local presence to figure out something on his own and be a great support to anyone who cant be there in person or a great person to team up with if they should also be in the Houston area.

I posted photos today on the Houston Group Facebook thread. I decided to make a FB thread yesterday to chronicle my efforts. Everyone is welcome to read and view my stuff. If you would like...i can post all the same photos and info here on the q4t thread. I want to SHARE what im doing. I have a deep respect for everyone in the local Houston area. I have been working and searching the last 5 years in hermann park. Ive decided this year to do several digs because i feel confident in two of them. One out near miller theater...one already in the houston zoo. If you want to call me on my phone...just message me and i will give you my phone number. I am more that happy to tell you all the information i have been developing on the many trips to hermann park. I may be a new member here...but i am 43 years old. I have visited Hermann Park many times as a kid. I'm just an average person doing what i can to search for a solution, developing my theory and then going out to dig. The only way to find out if im right or wrong is to dig (but getting approval from the parks a recreation department of houston first). Thanks, David in Houston

Note...other people have created Facebook pages for there own cities treasure hunt. Most noteably the New Orleans group or NOLA. Im just putting together one for Houston. There are a handful of houston members. Wilhouse (Mark) being the most noteable in our area.

HoustonTxDave wrote:: I posted photos today on the Houston Group Facebook thread. I decided to make a FB thread yesterday to chronicle my efforts. Everyone is welcome to read and view my stuff. Thanks for the update. Keep us posted on any new discoveries.

The following photo is for entertainment purposes only. It IS photoshopped...but wouldn't it be nice to be walking around the Houston Zoo and see this Wilhouse...this post is for you! Now let's go dig'n

too funny. Thanks Dave! wilhouse

Thats the best.

That's hilarious.

So I was on google earth and noticed a red object similar to the gem. Went on street view and it looks like this. Any info on this statue and when it was installed? hxxp://imgur.com/AwA7FFg

Maybe put a little guy with a front end loader in the picture!

I've been in three cities that are possible casque locations: charlston, houston and san fran. Due to my schedule, I happen to have been to houston many times over the past couple years and have walked a couple locations that I think might work. I'm leaving for Houston tuesday and I thought I would throw all my thoughts out. Please! let me know if you think something doesn't make sense, could work, or looks promising. I'd love to hear any thoughts on any of it. Here goes: I think the entire scene has a "space" feel. The tree leaves resemble rockets: the landscape is supposed to be the craters on the moon. I think the etchign resembles the man on the moon sticking his pole with the flag on it into the lunar surface. I think this is sam houston park because of the visual clues and matches: the armillary sphere is a spot on match, as is the spriit of the confedereacy. In the found casques, visual clues meant you were close: why does hermann park even become an option at this point? I think the wood no lion fears is referencing a log cabin that is an "attraction" in the park, which would explain how you can go through it. There is a large open, pathway straight through the middle. the number 982: there is a monument that references the number beside the log cabin, across from arms crossed statue. The park across from this one is tranquillity park that has a dediction to space travel AND a footprint plaque of the first lunar footstep. It is also a small scale model of something space-y (i forget: my notes are downstairs) Lastly: lots of math references: perspective, scale, etc in the verse feel free to comment; would love to hear it... The tall cylinders are an almost exact match for the pillars in the picture: and I think the herman referenced in the verse means herman square.

The plaque on the armillary sphere says 2000. hxxp://www.houstontx.gov/civicart/artwo ... photo4.jpg wilhouse

i don't know. I don't think it would be in the park: probabaly the peripheral or between the parks? It's not in a flower bed, per the rules, so i'm stumped. think i'm crazy? Space idea too out there? PS the reason Im posting all this is because someone needs to find this thing and put me out of my misery:) I'm going to be sneaking away from a wedding downtown to search for a buried treasure worth nothing. MAKE IT STOP!

If you're actively working on the Houston casque, then yes, you're crazy. Join the crazy club. wilhouse

In 2000 they just cleaned it up: Title: Armillary Sphere Artist: Kenneth Lynch and Sons Date: 1977 Medium: Steel & Bronze Location: Sam Houston Park Attributed to Kenneth Lynch and Sons, the Armillary Sphere in Sam Houston Park was donated to the City of Houston in 1977 by Elizabeth Bracewell, President of the Houston Heritage Society from 1969 to 1971. The steel and bronze sphere points to the celestial North Pole. Round bands represent the meridian of Houston and the equator, as well as the signs of the zodiac.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but what is the Armillary Sphere a spot-on match for? The orb at the top of the column in P8? Isn't one sphere pretty much a spot-on match for any other sphere in existence, ever?

Shape ubiquity is always a red flag. The best explanation for the sphere on the column came from a good friend of mine. It's literaly a pole with a sphere at the top. Isn't that symbolically opposite of what our planet Earth has? Earth is a sphere with a pole on the top (bottom too). The question then is what does the North Pole have to do with anything? I think that's a fun thought and it plays with the recent Santa Claus theories I've been thinking about.

kathleen0421 wrote:: visual clues meant you were close: why does hermann park even become an option at this point? Mainly the animals and pillars in the zoo. I still like the leaves/Atropos resemblance... Other possibilities include the sand dunes... But the 982 is the most compelling piece of evidence, together with the Hermann quote. I honestly think you'd be wasting your time in Sam Houston park.

The pole and ball is basically a reverse rebus if it translates as the North Pole (pole on top of sphere).

why couldn't the hermann quote be herman square?

Unknown: As the vine flourishes, and the grape empurples close up to the very walls and muzzles of cannoned Ehrenbreitstein; so do the sweetest joys of life grow in the very jaws of its perils. But is life, indeed, a thing for all infidel levities, and we, its misdeemed beneficiaries, so utterly fools and infatuate, that what we take to be our strongest tower of delight Erexere, I thought you'd like this. Ehrenbreitstein is a fortress . (Hermann goes on about it in Moby Dick as well.)

This is what I'm thinking visually,

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Erexere, I thought you'd like this. Ehrenbreitstein is a fortress . (Hermann goes on about it in Moby Dick as well.) I love that thanks

erexere wrote:: I love that thanks I really really love that. Damn.

I believe the fortress is referring to what is now the ZaZa Hotel. It was called the WARwick hotel, back in the 1980's. It is shaped somewhat like a fortress and the war part of the name fits in the motif of that line of the verse. It is also Directly north of the Sam Houston Monument in the center of the circle. I may do some poking around in Hermann Park this week, I'm off and I live in Houston.

Ive been working on an idea for the Childrens zoo theory. The Auditoriums roof is pointy..like a witch's hat (Perspective/vanishing point pointing to the sky). What if the roof is used like a sundial. If we look at wear the shadow falls in december it might reveal the place to dig. December 22nd is winter solstice this year. In 1981 it was december 21st. In 1982 it was december 22nd. See my diagram for details...

unfortunately, the area you mark as shadow is all concrete. There is a very small strip of dirt by the lands where the fence is. I poked around all that area, but it's really a planter. You can't dig in the lands as they have an asphalt top under a thin layer of dirt to keep the animals from digging out. wilhouse

I appreciate your feedback. Im not sure where the shadow would be cast on december 21st 1981 or december 22nd 1982 (winter solstice). I was thinking more towards the north america area..outside the fence near the tree. But alas...time and progress does hinder us. At least you got to experience the adventure of the big dig Wilhouse...had you ever though about the auditorium's pointy roof as a sun dial when you were exploring and diging in that area?

I didn't. Mainly because that area of the CZ was almost always in shadow because of the overgrowth of trees. True though back in 1982 it was much less overgrown and the top could have acted as a sun dial. I'll lookvback at some old photos I have and see if I can see anything. wilhouse

I've noticed that there's been steady construction work going on near the Houston Garden Center. It appears that semi-circular parking lot on the north-northeast side is being turned into the Centennial Park. Just thought I'd share. Correction. The Houston Garden Center is now gone and that entire area east of the museum is now being transformed into the McGovern Centennial Garden.

McGovern Centennal Park opened in 2014 to mark the 100th anniversary of Hermann Park. The Houston Garden Center and its parking lot were leveled. The Taipei Friendship pavilion and the many statues in the garden were moved to new locations to the south side of McGovern Park near the rose garden. Welcome to the Houston "the secret: a treasure hunt" ...racerx330. There are several people who live in houston on this forum. Most notably ...Wilhouse, HoustonTxDave. Please feel free to read the entire threads verse 1, image 8. We have other q4t members from other parts of the U.S. and the world who have been working on theories. I can tell you wilhouse has done the most digging at the Houston Zoo. I have done a dig there as well...a small one. It could be anywhere in hermann park or the houston zoo. The main focus the last 10 to 15 years has been near the childrens zoo (its old location...not the new McGovern Childrens Zoo) which is now had the gorilla display built over it. Its been 33 years...so we try to focus on maps, photos and info of the park in 1981 and 1982 that Byron Priess would have used. Happy hunting!

Yes, I've read the threads. I live in Houston as well and used to bike regularly through Hermann Park in that area. I live in the Heights now, so I'm not in the area as much as I used to be when I lived in the Medical Center. My comment was really centered around how much that area has changed in the past decade that I've been in Houston. There is some archival aerial footage available for the park from 1981, in a google map style setup. A few years ago, right as the Ideson Library building was completed with the renovations I reviewed some materials, similar to the ones you found there, unrelated to Priess' treasure as I was looking at how Hermann Park and the Zoo have changed over the years. I'm a sucker for useless Houston trivia and history. LOL. I thought your insights from the FB postings were particularly interesting, but it highlights exactly what you mentioned in your post about how difficult it is to determine what was and was not there in 1981.

Hey RacerX330, We do have a facebook page for the houston search. Just go to the facebook seach box and type in "The Secret A Treasure Hunt (Houston) Byron Preiss". Request to join. I've been to the Ideson library several times.They have lots of original documents of hermann park, the zoo from the 20s, 30s, 50s, 70s etc. A great research library.

Yes, I've seen the facebook group, and I've requested to join on there. Another post coming here shortly...

Added you to the FB group racerx330

Dave, Thank you. Wilhouse, Do you have all your pictures that you linked here archived somewhere? I cannot see them from their original links here in the forum anymore.

No those links are no goodaanymore. I'll try to do something. wilhouse

I'm working with a jewel geometry idea . I think the rhino head is a metaphor for a nose. A nose can whistle. The line that is drawn from the horn to the jewel intersects a curious diamond shape that is partially hidden by the genie.

fox wrote:: :bang) Yup

erexere wrote:: I'm working with a jewel geometry idea . I think the rhino head is a metaphor for a nose. A nose can whistle. The line that is drawn from the horn to the jewel intersects a curious diamond shape that is partially hidden by the genie.

Ha!

This isn't Facebook, kids!

Any word on those old photos wilhouse? =D

I've got them all. I'll have to create an album somewhere. It's a tedious time consuming effort so it's not going to happen over night. wilhouse

You guys are local right? Sounds like you should hust meet for coffee and a game of scrabble. Go over those photos old school style.

We are both local, yes, but I'm traveling until the end of the year, so that won't be possible in the short-term. Plus it'd be good to have them archived online someplace.

I want to review some notes for The Secret A Treasure Hunt book starting with page 16...where the line starts.... "Now, in the eternal whirlwinds above Persia's Mountains of Kaf , appeared a caravan of magic-wrought carpets, and upon them rode the banished elder spirits of Araby: monsterous Deevs , desert-born giants; the Peri , bright and beautiful as starlight; and the wish-granting Djinn , formed of smokeless fire, at last free from Man's lamps and bottles" 1. Mountains of Kaf: (definition of Kaf) - "the camel's hump" or "the hand". (Arabic) NOTE: In image 8 there is a camel on top of one of the pillars. This gives us the visual reference. 2. Website link: hxxp://www.temehu.com/Cities_sites/kaf-ajnoun.htm Kaf Ajnoun (Cave of the Jinn) Mountain of Ghost: Devil's Hill The haunted natural rock fortess of Idinen, also known as the legendary "Fortress of Ghosts", or Cave of the Jinn, is located in the southern region of Libya. . . These images of the Kaf Aljnoun, also known as The Devils hill, the genies castle, the mountain of ghost or the jinn city...looks like the hill in the background of image 8. 3. (Book) Paradise Revisited: The Roots of Civilization (by Michael A. Cahill) Asia - The Peri The Peri are the fairy people of Persia, where they represent the beings of forest and rivers. Like other fairies, they can be either friendly to human beings or else act as a hinderance to them. They were believed to emanate from a demon, but it was discovered that the Deevs (giants) had abducted and imprisoned them in iron cages like birds and hung at the tops of trees. These imprisoned Peri were kept alive by their companions, who brought them nourishment in the form of perfumes that they ate.. It is believed that the Peri were fallen angels that had repented to late to be accepted into heaven. The Peris are thought to represent the light and good forces of nature that are constantly at forces with the dark evil forces call Deevs. The fairies were invisible spirits that inhabited the subterranean earth. They were said to have powers that could influence and corrupt humans as well as take any shape or form, such as animals or even humans. NOTE: In image 8, i believe the giant columns represent the Deevs, the north star represents the Peri, and the jinn (genie) represents the captured Peri that has been bottle up inside Man's lamp. IN CONCLUSION: (verse 1) 1. The importance of the very first line FORTRESS NORTH..i think refers to the "Mountains of kaf" as stated above . The legends of the Deev and Peri seems to be what Byron Preiss based his Persian theme in image 8. The photograph of the mountains looks similar to the background hill in image 8. Kaf meaning camels hump is represented in the column with the camel. The Sam Houston statue at hermann park has the same type column base that the camel/horse sits on. The capturing of the Peri and putting them in iron cages and having companions feed theme perfumes to eat...hints to the houston zoo .

Hi, I'm new here and just found out about this hunt around a week ago. I am from Houston and have been reading most of these threads along with the wiki page. I haven't seen yall mention it but has anyone cheked out the theory of it being possibly hidden it the trees listed in the following 3 areas on this page? [hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86302954/Image%2008] Specifically area 3 seemed like it was a very possible location when I visited there this afternoon. Y'all have been working at this a while and would love to hear what yall have to say aboout this theory. Thanks much and happy hunting!

Hi Robert, and welcome to the hunt. In my opinion the evidence in favor of those areas is extremely weak, certainly not strong enough to justify the commitment and expense for an actual dig. Especially important, there is no precise location indicated.

Hey guys! Just wanted to put up an aerial view of Hermann Park for reference. youtu.be/PjJ1OT1xT-M?t=1m

Hey guys, Im out at Hermann Park today...exploring a spot or two. Someone recently posted a theory on the pbworks wiki page about the perspective line from the train across to mcgovrrn lake fountain to an area southwest of the obolisk. Then another perspective line running from the atropos statue to the pioneer monument and pass it to the southwest of the monument. Where these two lines intersect. Lat 29.717972 Long 95.392694 On a side note i ran into two person group with a metal detector just southeast of the pioneer monument. I asked them if them were searching for buried treasure. They mentioned a book about a man who put something in the ground near hear. I laughed and showed them the book (the secret) i was carrying and my notebook. Lol...They were just using a small hand shovel and probing possible spot. The weather is perfect...Come on out and get you dig on in hermann park folks! Ive been taking lots of photos and video to help explore the post on the pbworks wiki perspective line theory at hermann park. When i get time later this weekend..i will post some of them.

Unknown: ran into two person group with a metal detector Pretty sure they can't find the casque with that XD! Man, i need to get some time open to go there. But it's a 30 minute drive so it will take some time.

Dave, sounds like you're having an awesome day!

I posted some pictures of today's search on the facebook page: The Secret A Treasure Hunt (Houston) Byron Preiss.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas, Happy Holidays and a great new year in 2016. My wife and I wish all the best to you and yours. We dug three holes this year. One hole in the zoo and two holes southwest of the obelisk this year. Im 90 percent sure its in the zoo but 10 percent of me thinks there could be a slim chance its in hermann park somewhere. Cheers to Q4T folks! P.S. We will be in New Orleans for New Years week. We will take a day or two to site see some areas of interest for the NOLA casque.

There is a video and an article on the Houston search for Byron Priess' treasure on a Houston Chronicle's blog from Nov. 16, 2015. Here is the link: hxxp://blog.chron.com/bayoucityhistory/ ... mann-park/ Looks like more folks are joining the hunt here in Houston.

Giving people a "spoiler alert" of "where the treasure is" is rather unprofessional and ill founded. wilhouse

Is "Preiss" really pronounced "Prius"? I've always thought it was said as "Price." It is darned annoying that they claim a Reddit user "resurrected" this hunt a year ago. Please. We've been at this for far longer.

I've always pronounced it price

Unknown: I've always pronounced it price I've always said it with a long E (preece), which is the Americanized pronunciation. The original Germanic pronunciation has a long I, along the lines of "price" or possibly "pri-ess". Not sure which pronunciation Preiss preferred, but I'll bet he was used to hearing it several ways.

Unknown: It is darned annoying that they claim a Reddit user "resurrected" this hunt a year ago. Please. We've been at this for far longer. Well, really a lot of people didn't know about this hunt until then, and a new wave came from a popular Youtuber that does top tens (which is where I came from). I don't have a lot to say about it since I literally only got into this last year.

Sorry it's been so long since I've been on here. Lost dad to cancer in Nov, so it's been a busy christmas/new year etc... In the time that I've had to "just ponder" I've been looking at the image. I see an outline of the state of texas in the image, I can draw it out, but I'm not so handy with photoshop so I'll give that a try. Not that the location, at this point in the search, is really all that in question (generally referring to it being in Houston, Tx). Also, I was in Chicago at the Art Institute right before Christmas (family lives in IL, I live in TX) anyhow, I walked south of the AI and looked around Grant Park near Jackson Street. The location where the Chicago cask was found would be very very easy to dig in at night, along the fenceline before the dropoff to the train tracks. I believe that Wilhouse's original idea of the cask being buried in the Children's Zoo portion of Hermann park is exactly correct. Especially given the seclusion that would be required to dig a roughly 1ft by 1ft by 3ft deep hole in the ground. Just thinking about the logistics of performing that. You'd have to carry the cask in the plastic container, and a shovel. Those aren't two items you can just put in your pocket and walk around with at night, let alone broad daylight without raising suspicions of onlookers. Doing this out in the open in Hermann Park, I think, would have been much more difficult. I think wilhouse had right, and i think time washed it away, but I could be wrong, and I'll still lend any help to the search that I can.

forest_blight wrote:: Is "Preiss" really pronounced "Prius"? I've always thought it was said as "Price." It is darned annoying that they claim a Reddit user "resurrected" this hunt a year ago. Please. We've been at this for far longer. I'm going to weigh in with the "Price" camp. I know I am not the "we" you speak of as I was only introduced to the hunt a little less than 3 years ago on SomethingAwful, but I wouldn't get too sore over a little misinformation from blog.chron.com. And now that I'm done complaining about how he pronounces "Preiss", let's also not worry that he gives a nod to Reddit for stoking the smoldering ashes of interest in The Secret. Besides, I always appreciate a fresh perspective from someone who has taken the time to not be talking completely out of their ass. I also appreciate raw enthusiasm from people who don't necessarily know there's a map of Roanoke Island in Image 3 and a direct quote from the Wright Bros. monument in Verse 11, and therefore have decided that it must be buried in Terra Haute, IN. I also have a general comment, not directed at your remarks or anything, but just a thought as I was typing the above. I enjoy this hunt and talking about it and comparing notes. If someone new to this hunt took the time to put together a Terra Haute theory, they're at least interested in the subject enough to spend some time on it. I don't want to snuff out enthusiasm by being some curmudgeon because they didn't read every post in every thread and are bringing up something that perhaps some of us who have been around for a little bit might have heard before. It's easy to lump a lot of that junk together, but rather than being dismissive, I would like to try to maybe channel that enthusiasm into a direction that doesn't lead to Terra Haute.

Rohe, mentioned on p.158, was the architect for the building immediately north of Hermann Park. 1001 Bissonnet St, Houston, TX 77005

Several people have talked about the 4 small fountains that surround the obelisk. Here is a picture from 1980 that shows the reflection pool and obelisk with NO small fountains...just grass and bushes.

I don't personally recall having seen this before: hxxp://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/s ... _Cite3.pdf It's a 1983 article about Hermann Park. Bottom image in the pdf is a detailed site plans for some intended 1983 upgrades at Hermann Park. A couple of 1982/83 aerials as well. Apologies if this has already made the rounds.

Hi everyone... My name is Jermaine Rogers. I'm an artist who lives in Houston...I was born and raised here. I know the Herman area very well...it's very special ground to me...lots of memories. I actually live within walking distance, just down Montrose Blvd. My work/career has enabled me to live in various spots all over the country...but I am now living back in Houston, Texas, where I was born and raised. I was lured back home by, among other things, my intimate and tight connection with Hermann Park. I've been familiar with the Preiss mystery for some time, but never had the time or the circumstance to give it serious attention. In the recent weeks, I have. I had an epiphany of sorts late last week and drove down to check some things out. I think most of the guessing that is common about this particular casque location online is incorrect...in fact, I'm sure of it. And I think I can prove it. It involves remembering some keynote things that used to be in the area...things that everyone who frequented the area would remember. It also includes knowing certain things about Herman Park, and what would've been allowed there (as far as digging) in 1981/82. The ultimate problem is that people are making a couple of incorrect assumptions (albeit 'reasonable' ones)) and are beginning the search in the wrong spot. I know you've all probably heard this kind of thing before, but trust me...I can back these things up and I think it will shift how everyone thinks about this verse/image from here on out. At some point, I'll film a walkthrough, and show everyone...or perhaps meet a few of you down there and we can walk through it together. When I did it, it blew my mind. I felt like Preiss was with me. It was amazing. I can clear up a couple of 'mysteries' on the image, as well. I ask you to open your mind, here. So, from 1981 to 1982, I was down in that area every Saturday morning...from 10AM to noon. i've been familiar with that park all of my life. In 1982, as much as right now, there was NO WAY Priess would've been allowed to dig in the park 'proper'. As stringent as the conservancy is about that kind of thing, now...they've always been that way. I think the burial site is very close to the park...just beside it, in fact. The key is where you begin. This single and important aspect is what everyone has been mistaking, imo. But it involves knowing something about the area in 1982...something that anyone there at that time with any knowledge of where they were would've known. The first few lines give you very strong clues where to begin the search. The next few lines concretely confirm where you're supposed to be. Everyone cites the email exchange Preiss had with a searcher shortly before he was killed. In that email, an allusion was made to the 'childrens zoo'. There is a childrens zoo...always has been...but it isn't a separate zoo unto itself. It's a part of the big zoo. it's INSIDE the big zoo...towards the back. A children's zoo. It's always been that way. Obviously, the casque could never have been buried in the childrens zoo. It wouldve been impossible. It was in a public zoo. But I think this exchange, along with the allusion to '982' has confused some about where they should begin the search. Let me add that when I say that I dont believe the conservancy would've allowed digging in the park, I mean the park PROPER i.e. the big block that includes the zoo, the Miller Outdoor Theater, the train, the reflecting pool, the Sam Houston statue, etc. There's just no way digging there would've ever been allowed. Now, where I believe the casque is hidden is also technically in an area that is tchnically Hermann Park...just not in the area where speculation has been popular. What people overlook is that the copy of that email exchange is significantly edited (at least all of the copies of it that I have seen): we never are privy to WHERE the searcher wanted to dig (he was apparently keeping that a secret to himself) and Priess NEVER confirms anything about digging in or even around the childrens zoo or the entire Zoo itself. Most of the conclusions that folks have come to about this particular casque...i think are wrong...specifically because they are beginning in the wrong area. This is due to a very common misunderstanding of the first few lines in the verse. The first few lines give you very strong clues where to begin the search. The next few lines concretely confirm if you are where you're supposed to be. I was down there again this afternoon, and the more I see things, the more illuminated it all becomes. Before I continue, is anyone around to begin a discussion of this? I see that some times there are long spells where no one comes around. Chime in, and I'll lay out what I think. In any case, glad to be here! What a wonderful mystery....the kind of thing I live for. - jermaine

I can't wait to hear your theory! It would take pretty strong evidence to convince folks that "982" does not refer to the train engine, if that is part of your theory.

982 DEFINITELY references that train...but it's the wording around where you are supposed to be in relation to it which I believe has been misinterpreted.

Dero72 wrote:: Before I continue, is anyone around to begin a discussion of this? Hi Jermaine - welcome to the forum. There are always folks here keeping an eye out for new ideas.

Unknown: There are always folks here keeping an eye out for new ideas. Count me among them. Looking forward to what Jermaine has to offer.

I too am always open to new ideas. What I don't understand though is all of the new folks coming on, saying they have ground breaking irrefutable new information but sit on it. These boards have become a place to share ideas and once and for all unearth these illusive casques. I can guarantee that if I came up with a theory that i KNEW was correct, I'd happily share it here so that someone...anyone, could dig up another.

I too, look forward to hearing what you have to say. I don't know that I personally have much to add to the discussion. I can hold my own when discussing certain ideas about Image 8, but others have spent significantly more time than me with this particular image.

Most of the long silence is due to the fact that there is not much new to discuss - at least nothing that is considered credible. We await your theory!

hey guys...typing up my theory this weekend. sorry....i posted my intro and then some work got in the way. apologies. - dero

Unknown: Fortress north Cold as glass Friendship south Take your task To the number Nine eight two ... If we're going to discuss the starting point, might as well paste the beginning of the verse here for reference: In my mind, it didn't really matter where the Fortress and Friendship points are for starters if they then take you (or your task) to the number 982. Couldn't one just as easily start at the 982 train? Or... you're actually led to a sign marked with the 982 and not all the way to the train itself. I'm happy to listen to a local describe the area as it stood back in the day.

OK... So, I'll begin by saying that I can't claim that I'm completely sure about ALL of the elements of this mystery (primarily the latter parts of the verse), but I do feel very confident in the majority of my interpretations. I DO believe that the popular assumption that the search should begin at the 982 train is incorrect, and I believe this mistake is based on a very reasonable misinterpretation of the instructions early in the verse. The 'fortress' and 'friendship' markers DO matter...a great deal, in fact. These markers tell you WHERE to begin. Looking at the 2 verses that have been solved in Chicago and Clevelan is very instructive. Priess didn't issue a lot of vague clues. You didn't have to do a lot of 'reaching' to make things fit. Every single thing mentioned was important. All of it pertinent. Nothing was insignificant or 'not important', and each line is intimately connected to everything else. Finally, I'll say this: everything I'm about to present is simply what I 'think' to be the explanation to some of the mystery. I could be very wrong. Better and smarter men and women than me have grappled with this thing for over 30 years. At the very least, I think I may be able to just add a bit more clarity to certain aspects of this thing. As mentioned before, I was raised in Houston and spent a great deal of time around Hermann Park - all of my life. In my early 20's, I worked at the Houston Museum Of Natural Science for several years. I spent untold hours all over that park every single day. Hopefully, some of that history can come to bear in this...and maybe, I can add some grains of info that will help. So, let's begin: 'Fortress north Cold as glass' - I have no doubt at all about what this is, and it's very important...as it gives us our very first clue to exactly where we should be physically standing to begin this quest. Many have thought that it represents downtown Houston and the glass buildings in the skyline. Take a look at this picture: This was downtown Houston in 1980/81. Not an entirely huge amount of 'glass' there. You can see the Texas Commerce building is under construction in this picture, and it finally was completed in 1981. From a distance, the skyline was not filled with glass...not enough to strike a visitor like Preiss. It wouldn't have been an obvious connotation. BTW, remember that fact the entire time we read any of this man's verses/clues: Preiss was a VISITOR to the city. As in the 2 mysteries which have already been solved, he would've used distinctive landmarks that would've jumped out to a tourist, and then supplemented these allusions with descriptive details. In many ways, he uses obvious visual references. Additionally, a vague 'downtown' reference would've created a HUGE search area, which would encompass all the area from downtown to Hermann. Again, look to the mysteries which have been solved. Directional clues were compact. Not to mention: downtown as a 'fortress'? That makes no sense. You have to mentally reach to make that idea come even close to reasonable. So, what is the 'fortress' which marks the northern boundary of where you should be standing? Look at this picture: There is your glass fortress...in more ways than one. The Glassell School of Art stood on an entire city block...an imposing, fortress like structure made up of thousands of glass blocks, which looked like ice cubes. From 1981-1983, I attended this school every single Saturday morning. I won a scholarship to go here and became very familiar with the building. All of us kids joked about the building looking like ice cubes ('cold as glass'). But here is what cinches it: look at the pic again. Printed very boldly in blue letters on the front of the building was the name: GLASSELL SCHOOL OF ART. You see it? GLASSell. I'm positive that this is the double entendre that Preiss intended. The glass building LOOKED like ice blocks, and the word 'glass' was printed prominently ON THE BUILDING. Everyone knew this building in 1981. It was promoted as a work of art itself, having been built in 1979. The use of the glass blocks scientifically cooled the building. That fact was also widely touted. Preiss would've known/heard about it and been impressed. Everyone was. Strong visual clue, here. So, there you are: Preiss has marked your northern boundary for you...just north of Hermann Park. 'Friendship south' - Many have cited their belief that the 'Friendship Plaza' location as the marker for this clue, which I am sure is incorrect. Firstly, there were no very prominent markers as to what the pavilion was. I was raised here and I had NO idea what the name of the pavilion was. Yes, I knew there was a pagoda in the park, but we attached no importance to it. Sure, I was an 11 year old kid, and I'm sure if you were to read the sign or marker out front, you could've seen what exactly this place was. For this verse, it wasn't prominent enough. Especially when there was a much more prominent marker for 'Friendship' in the area. Here it is: The statue of the man who was the first President of (and who many consider the father of) Texas, Sam Houston. He personifies 'Texas'. 'Texas' is from the Caddo Indian word "teyshas", which translates to the word 'FRIENDS'. No more prominent landmark representing 'friendship' can be found in this park. Even the tourist would've known this straight away...and you really have to just KNOW that Preiss would never have written a mystery in Hermann Park and NOT include this statue. It is the most recognizable landmark in the area. This is the southern boundary to where you should be STANDING when you begin the quest. Now, where exactly are you standing? Well, if you are standing at the northern boundary and facing south, the Glassell is at your back. At your front? Well, you're looking directly at a huge landmark...one that sits in between you and the 'Friendship' Sam Houston statue, a little further south. That prominent landmark is the Houston Museum Of Fine Arts. Where do you go from here? 'Take your task To the number Nine eight two' - Here we see the infamous 982 reference. This no doubt represents the steam locomotive which was parked in front of the Houston Zoo, even further south of the 'Friendship' Sam Houston statue. Now, here is where I think the misunderstanding comes in. Read the first lines of the verse again. The northern and southern boundaries establish WHERE YOU BEGIN searching. The fact that you are now being told to 'take your task' somewhere else indicates this. I believe the language here is basically telling you, 'head towards the steam engine/zoo'. Everyone in Houston would've known which way that meant. South. Go towards the zoo. Take your task there. 'Take your task...' (i.e.) start walking. But where? 'Through the wood No lion fears' - Now, in an area which is parkland, it's easy to just assume, 'oh, he just means to walk through the trees...'. But think deeper than that. Why the illusion to a lion? Or the allusion to 'fear'? First off, lets cross some things off the list: NO, it isn't referring to the zoo. I'm pretty sure that lions don't dig the zoo. It's like 'lion jail'. Of course they would have some fear there. And back then (1981), the lions were in cages, not the open environment they built for the lions years later. NO, it isn't the park. That just makes no sense. It's reaching to make a connection that isn't there. There is no connection between 'lions' and the park. NO, it has nothing to do with those lion water fountains. Those fountains were all inside of the zoo. That was one of the thrills of going to the zoo back then. Me and my kid sister wanted to get inside and drink out of a lions mouth. So, what is the wood? Well, the correlation of a lion and 'fear' instantly recalls the cowardly lion from Wizard Of Oz fame. I thought about that. And then I thought of another lion...probably the most popular lion of modern popular culture. This guy: The MGM lion is a well known lion. The MGM opening is part of popular culture. See that latin phrase written above the lion? “Ars Gratia Artis”. Here's what it translates to:“Art for art’s sake”. And here we are, standing in front of a building that is in our pathway to the zoo...which just happens to be an Art Museum! 'Through the wood which no lion fears'...THROUGH the arts museum...which was only one building in 1981...and free to enter. (BTW - our allusion to the cowardly lion of Wizard of Oz fame may have some merit, after all. Which film studio produced the 1939 film? MGM. ) SO...we walk through and we come out the opposite entrance (which was operable and very much used back in 1981). We step outside, and what do we see? I'll continue in my next post... jermaine

So, we've walked through the 'forest no lion fears'....which would've been a quick walk, btw. If one was to enter the Museum Of Fine Arts through the entry doors facing the Glassell on Bissonet Street, you could walk straight through the first floor (which was mostly comprised of a huge open gallery). Within 2 minutes, you'd exit the entry way on the opposite (SOUTH) side of the building. So there you stand. What do you see? 'In the sky the water veers' Water, moving in the sky. Veering. A tourist like Preiss would've looked out and saw an impressive sight... The Mecom Fountain is actually three fountains: a large one in the middle flanked by 2 smaller identical ones (remember that for later). As you exit the Museum Of Fine Arts, it's the first thing you see. It's a huge, loud fountain. It's pictured in every tourist book about Houston. To come upon them, especially at night when they are lit up, is memorable. A strong visual clue. Note in this following picture, how the water moves...how it 'veers': As the water spouts up, each major plume of water is surrounded by a ring of water which curves inwards towards it. All three fountains move in unison. 'Small of scale' - Again, look at them. Three fountains: a large one, flanked by 2 identical fountains, SMALLER IN SCALE. So, let's walk towards the fountains. They are situated on an island in the center of a roundabout. But, you notice that the pathway laid out for foot traffic enables you to cross over via a crosswalk...so.... 'Step across' - Interestingly, the crosswalk where you'd 'step across' is directly in front of one of the smaller fountains. Therefore, Preiss could've been confirming to the reader that they were indeed on the right track (small of scale -> step across). More visual clues. 'Perspective should not be lost' - Remember, we are heading towards the general direction of the zoo....towards '982'. Now, for the first time in our journey, we're able to see the Sam Houston statue (Friendship). But you must keep your perspective. As I mentioned, the Mecom Fountain sits in the center of a roundabout...a VERY busy one. Its very easy to get turned around, especially if you don't know the area. This could be Priess's way of saying, 'Don't get distracted: keep heading towards the zoo.' Your visual clues have assured you that you are heading in the right direction. Preiss could also be reminding searchers to be careful and pay attention, here. More than a few people have been hit by cars here, over the years. This roundabout is one of the most tricky places to navigate in Houston, even in a car. It is also the gateway to Hermann Park. So there are always tons of cars and tons of pedestrians interacting, here. 'Step across'...and then, immediately, 'keep your perspective/pay attention!'. You also see, for the first time, the Miller Outdoor Theater and the hill. This would be a good time to pull out image #8. Do certain things begin to line up? Remember, it's 1981 and you are on a pathway which has been provided by the park for foot traffic. There were things that were in the area in 1981 that are no longer around today (i.e.) the Glassell 'glass fortress'. But, there are also things in our pathway today which DIDN'T exist in 1981. And we're coming upon a couple of big ones. But first, we are going to find ourselves positioned in the center of four 'alike' things. I'll show them to you on my next post. Hint: they are NOT trees. jr

Dero72 wrote:: hey guys...typing up my theory this weekend. sorry....i posted my intro and then some work got in the way. apologies. - dero Pay no attention to the gnashing of teeth.

So... 'Stepping across' the cross-walk deposits us on a little island of land adjacent to the Mecom Fountain. Currently (2016), on this little patch of land sits the Bloch Plaza Cancer Survivors Memorial. It's a little courtyard that was built around an old fountain...with a sculpture nearby. In 1981, however, this survivor memorial was NOT there. So, don't let this little modern plaza distract you. What's more important here is WHERE you are standing IN RELATION TO the Mecom Fountain (behind you) and another structure that is visible just ahead. In front of you (facing south) sits ANOTHER fountain that is quite impressive and relevant to our search. Take a look at this: This fountain is called the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. ANOTHER Mecom fountain. It is just up ahead, across the street on the next block. Look at this map: Note where we are on this map: we are down in the left corner area. The number '1' shows you the Mecom Fountain (the big fountain with 2 smaller scale ones flanking/'winging' it). The number '2' shows you the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. At the moment, we are standing on that little unnamed triangular block of land directly in between the 2. Right in the middle. 'In the center of four alike' - You look around and you realize that you are in the center of four 'alike' things. Four fountains. Four fountains all named 'Mecom', in fact. Could this be the clue? Well, the next words in the verse seem to confirm this. 'Small, split,' - the one fountain ahead of you is the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. It is smaller than the 3 fountains that make up the Mecom Fountain behind you. It is split apart from them...a 'solo' fountain. It also is surrounded by 'split' pillars. This fountain is your first 'alike' thing. Now, turn around and look behind you at the Mecom Fountain again... 'Three winged and slight' - Take a look at this picture: The clues all seem to make sense. Three fountains. 'Winged'. See how the 2 smaller, 'slight' fountains wing the larger one? Even the water patterns create the shape of 'wings' on each fountain. And here you are, standing in the center of these four alike things...one of them smaller and split from the rest, the other three 'winged'. And you are standing on a non-descript piece of land, not even named on a map of the area. All of this is officially 'in' Hermann Park, btw. Additionally, here is where the Hermann references come into play. That little triangle of land is bordered by 3 streets: Fannin, Hermann Drive and Herman Park Drive. Up until this point, I'm very sure about everything. The clues all make sense. The 'four alike' thing clinches it. I don't think Preiss would've made so vague a description of 'four alike' to mean four trees...particularly for a park area full of hundreds of them. Again, study the two puzzles that have already been solved. Sending folks to look for 4 trees in some sort of grouping IN A WOODED PARK is a huge reach to me. Now...what's next? Here, I find myself splitting into a couple of possible directions, mostly due to the image #8. Here is where we encounter some huge things which are present in 2016, but were not there at all in Priuss's 1981. I'll get into those, next... dero72

BTW, any thoughts so far? Am I nuts?

Dero72 wrote:: BTW, any thoughts so far? Am I nuts? No, not at all. It's all plausible. I especially like the part where you say to review the two solved puzzles. I'm not sure if you noticed, though, that BP DID put the casque in places he shouldn't have in cleveland and chicago. You ever been to either of these places? He also used trees in chicago to pinpoint a casque. There are a lot of plausible theories out there. What makes this one (with or without sharing your actual digspot) correct, while the other plausible theories are incorrect? For instance, why is it not plausible that we start at the Warwick Towers (fortress north) adjacent to Glassell (cold as glass) in Texas (friendship state). You know, we would be right next to the reflecting pool (column). Then just follow the road around to the 982, and... ...walk from the 982 ...through the Cypress Cafe (through the wood) ...passing the lion fountain directly through it (not to be feared) ...on the path to and through the aqua tunnel (in the sky the water veers) ... where you'd come out of the tunnel and step across the four continents, which are clearly of small scale... Answer this question for yourself... Should one know one is correct before digging, or must one dig up a casque before one can know if the they are correct? Why am I wrong, and you are right? Do we need to dig lots of holes to determine who is right? Might another person be right, and neither of us is? How would we know, digging even more holes? None of this seems to mesh with the directions from the book... BTW, the guy who talked to BP about Houston DID give him a spot.

Again, BP never did concretely say, 'Yes - it's in the Children's Zoo'. I just don't buy it. In the email with the searcher, he said that it wouldn't be worthless to dig there...at the very least it would eliminate that location as the spot. And again, I went to that Children's Zoo MANY times in the early 80's. Do you know how long it would take to dig a 3 ft. hole? Try it. You won't be done in 5 minutes. Based on my memories (for whatever that's worth), there is NO WAY he could've buried something in the children's zoo. Children would've been there. Parents, as well. Zoo employees would have NEVER allowed it: the Children's Zoo was A PART of the full zoo. There was always MORE security in that area, as you might expect. There were also always zoo employees...docents and such, helping kids interact with the goats and sheep, etc etc. It's not a matter of ethics or anything. It would've been physically impossible. Even if he tries, he never finishes. Digging a 3 foot hole takes time....let alone re-filling it and covering it up so that it looks fairly undisturbed. And, of course, as I stated earlier...this is just MY interpretation. So, of course I think that this one is more plausible than the others. In the end, there is only ONE correct answer. As we all make our pitches, it doesn't mean any disrespect to others' opinions. It's just OUR OPINION. Who's right? Well, after 30+ years, we still don't know. That's why we're throwing out these friendly guesses. But again, I am pretty sure about the thing NOT being buried in the Children's Zoo. Even if you made all of the clues fit (and I don't think they do...at all), the deed could have never been done. And I don't think Priuss would've endorsed folks digging on private city property, which the zoo was before 2002. - dero

Dero72 wrote:: Again, BP never did concretely say, 'Yes - it's in the Children's Zoo'. I just don't buy it. In the email with the searcher, he said that it wouldn't be worthless to dig there...at the very least it would eliminate that location as the spot. Unknown: And again, I went to that Children's Zoo MANY times in the early 80's. Do you know how long it would take to dig a 3 ft. hole? Try it. You won't be done in 5 minutes. Unknown: Based on my memories (for whatever that's worth), there is NO WAY he could've buried something in the children's zoo. Unknown: Children would've been there. Parents, as well. Zoo employees would have NEVER allowed it: the Children's Zoo was A PART of the full zoo. There was always MORE security in that area, as you might expect. There were also always zoo employees...docents and such, helping kids interact with the goats and sheep, etc etc. Unknown: It's not a matter of ethics or anything. It would've been physically impossible. Even if he tries, he never finishes. Digging a 3 foot hole takes time....let alone re-filling it and covering it up so that it looks fairly undisturbed. Unknown: And, of course, as I stated earlier...this is just MY interpretation. So, of course I think that this one is more plausible than the others. Unknown: In the end, there is only ONE correct answer. As we all make our pitches, it doesn't mean any disrespect to others' opinions. It's just OUR OPINION. Who's right? Well, after 30+ years, we still don't know. That's why we're throwing out these friendly guesses. Unknown: But again, I am pretty sure about the thing NOT being buried in the Children's Zoo. Even if you made all of the clues fit (and I don't think they do...at all), the deed could have never been done. And I don't think Priuss would've endorsed folks digging on private city property, which the zoo was before 2002. "It wouldn't be a waste of time to dig there... However, I make no guarantees whatsoever." This being after he told the person, "It's not there" at several other spots. But I do agree with you. In the few instances that are known of Preiss speaking to people, he seemed to go out of his way to f**k with them. Yes, I do. Oh man, do I ever. That being said, the directions don't say it is buried 3 feet down, they say max 3 feet down. The two that were found were at about 1 to 1.5 feet down. You ever been to Chicago digspot? Would you dig there? It seems you are projecting your own apprehension on Preiss. You seem to assume he buried these during the daytime. Should you? Ask yourself this (if you follow all the puzzles), If there is a casque in FOY, and there are clues in the park which have could ONLY be seen in the daytime ("with windrose" inside a building), and we KNOW he couldn't have buried it in the daytime there... do you think he just scoped things out in the day and came back at night? Same with Roanoke... Did he dig in EG or FR or WBNM in the daytime, wherever you think it is? I've dug some pretty massive 4x15 foot trenches in the middle of the night in and at places I definitely shouldn't have. I guarantee you that nobody ever knew in the morning. Ding! Again, did BP make a puzzle, where he states he doesn't want us to dig all over, based on personal interpretations? Or, would there need to be some level of fact involved? "A little digging is your task." Correct... one correct answer. Everybody can make pitches for spots, we've got plenty of pitches. We've had friendly guesses since Day 1. And, no disrespect taken at all. If you hang around enough, you'll find that I'm truly not being a dick... I'm not meaning any disrespect either. I just happen to think that we've been making those pitches for far far far far toooooo long. We're missing something. I just keep pressing for others to find what that something is, cause it ain't another digspot. Read the directions carefully... BP clearly says nothing about private property, only hazardous property. On top of that, the rules and directions outright state that we could find one of these "in our own backyard." He also makes it very clear that we can solve these without ever visiting the site, and that we may very well find one where we are "unable" to dig.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You seem to assume he buried these during the daytime. Should you? Ask yourself this (if you follow all the puzzles), If there is a casque in FOY, and there are clues in the park which have could ONLY be seen in the daytime ("with windrose" inside a building), and we KNOW he couldn't have buried it in the daytime there... do you think he just scoped things out in the day and came back at night? Same with Roanoke... Did he dig in EG or FR or WBNM in the daytime, wherever you think it is? Again, couldn't have happened. The Childrens Zoo was an attraction INSIDE of the Houston Zoo. Which closes at night. Locked gates and everything. High walls on all of the perimeters: it's always been that way. For BP to do this at night, he would've had to trespass (read---> 'break in') after hours. He would've had to jump the gates. Deal with security. IN A ZOO, which has 24 hour security as well as zoo-keepers there around the clock. Try to understand that he couldn't do it if he wanted to...and IF for some weird reason he knew someone 'on the inside' who would sneak him in to do so, he'd be asking others to do the same thing to find the treasure...because that's the only way it would've even been possible. Again, I don't revel in shooting down long-adhered to assumptions about this possibility, but you have to understand that the Houston Zoo was not like the spot in Cleveland or Chicago. It was not publicly accessible at all hours. It does not have moments of isolation (even brief ones) during business hours which would allow for a dig to occur. And business hours are the ONLY hours during which it could've happened: again, NO - it can't happen at night because the zoo is CLOSED at night. Locked up, tight. More patrolled by security and employees than the typical business would be. It's a zoo. I say very affectionately, banish this idea from your head that BP could've ever have dug a hole on the grounds of the Houston Zoo. I wish I could transport you in my mind back to the zoo of that time...so that you could see how impossible the idea is.

You misinterpret my questioning as a proposition that I 1) believe it to be in the CZ, and 2) that I don't agree with the assumptions regarding plausibility you are proposing. However, I am doing neither. I am simply pointing out the fact that we don't KNOW. Now, think in a broader sense, should we KNOW where the casques are, or should we be digging holes at every friendly guess that makes sense? Do we need to dig holes to KNOW we are right, or should we KNOW we are right before digging? If fact is used as part of a determiner for locations, that would mean we would need indisputable things... like the fence and bowman in chicago, like the entrance columns and wall cleveland, like... No?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You misinterpret my questioning as a proposition that I 1) believe it to be in the CZ, and 2) that I don't agree with the assumptions regarding plausibility you are proposing. However, I am doing neither. I am simply pointing out the fact that we don't KNOW. Now, think in a broader sense, should we KNOW where the casques are, or should we be digging holes at every friendly guess that makes sense? Do we need to dig holes to KNOW we are right, or should we KNOW we are right before digging? Well, I'll throw in with you there. Of course we don't know. It's why we're here. Digging is the only way to know for sure. Period. Gotta swing the bat to have any shot at a home-run. Sometimes, a whole lot of swinging happens before bat-meets-ball. So...a whole lot of holes might need to be dug before anything can be KNOWN. The earth won't mind (although property owners of that particular patch of earth might). As far as the CZ goes, that's just me telling you what I DO know. I may not be able to say with a certainty that I know where it IS...but I do know many places where it ISN'T. It ISN'T in my Grandmothers back garden: my grandma knew every inch of that garden - she'd have noticed. It ISN'T under the 50-yard line at Rice Stadium: the groundskeepers over there would've noticed a blade of grass out of place. And it ISN'T in the Houston Zoo. For the reasons I've stated above. OR maybe I'm wrong... and it IS in my Grandma's garden.

Dero72 wrote:: Well, I'll throw in with you there. Of course we don't know. It's why we're here. Digging is the only way to know for sure. Period. Unknown: Gotta swing the bat to have any shot at a home-run. Sometimes, a whole lot of swinging happens before bat-meets-ball. So...a whole lot of holes might need to be dug before anything can be KNOWN. Unknown: As far as the CZ goes, that's just me telling you what I DO know. I may not be able to say with a certainty that I know where it IS...but I do know many places where it ISN'T. Unknown: It ISN'T in my Grandmothers back garden: my grandma knew every inch of that garden - she'd have noticed. It ISN'T under the 50-yard line at Rice Stadium: the groundskeepers over there would've noticed a blade of grass out of place. Unknown: And it ISN'T in the Houston Zoo. For the reasons I've stated above. Not according to the rules. Agree! Personally, I am 0 for about 25. How many times should one keep swinging and missing before they realize they are holding the bat wrong? How do you know where it ain't... you dig those spots? Agree... there is nothing in the puzzle that would give us pause to believe it is. ... You're opinion reasons? That doesn't seem so solid.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... You're opinion reasons? That doesn't seem so solid. Heh. No, my factual reasons...mentioned earlier. Several times. But alas, we're dancing in circles...and I've never been a fan of debating for the sport of it.

Dero72 wrote:: Heh. No, my factual reasons...mentioned earlier. Several times. But alas, we're dancing in circles...and I've never been a fan of debating for the sport of it. Alas, another digspot on the pile of digspots.

Holes inside of holes...and NO KEYS....

Dero72 wrote:: Holes inside of holes...and NO KEYS.... Well then, if you are working on those... I would say we should chat. PM me if interested.

Dero, I would like to hear the rest of your theory, as I am sure others do as well. Do not get deterred by 421. Part of the fun of this hunt is to hear others' ideas, and bat around different theories, as you alluded to several times. Some people here are apparently not in it for fun, but most of us are.

Unknown: Part of the fun of this hunt is to hear others' ideas, and bat around different theories From where I sit, and with regard to this forum, at least as it exists today, nothing could be further from the truth IMO.

Just so it's clear to all... I am not refuting D's theory, nor am I trying to promote another. I don't even know the digspot to D's theory, but I'll conceded already that it's plausible. Rather, I am putting two theories that equally utilize the clues next to one another in an attempt to highlight one huge glaring fact/question/problem... Preiss made the first goal of the puzzle to determine which verse paired with which image. We all know that depending on which verse you use, you can find many different spots in any single city. It's evident that Preiss attempted to overlap the clues and possibilities in order to make the pairing difficult. It's also evident that even using the correct verse, there seems to be many ways to interpret where a casque may be within a city. If clearly Preiss' goal was NOT to have a hundred holes dug in each city, then should we not have a way to KNOW when we are right, especially given the directions? Now, if there is a way to KNOW one is right before digging, then certainly that would have to be trial-and-errored (i.e., require successful holes to be dug) before one could figure out how it could be KNOWN. However, it would also require that we were GIVEN digspots where the casque did NOT exist. See, by doing this, we could KNOW that there was something we were missing... the secret . In Chicago, they were led with no uncertainty to a casque, no ambiguities, no artistic renderings... just straightforward clues and polaroids on a path. In Cleveland, they just needed a picture of the wall and columns - find the thing, find that the dig directions describe it perfectly. These objects and clues were huge and plentiful, and then they seemingly just start disappearing. Ever wonder why in most other cities we try to do the same thing and end up following a path that leads to, well, a spot where nothing the verse says should exists exists? A spot where we can't really dig with any sort of certainty at all. A place Preiss is most certainly leading us to/around, but that the dig clues do not fit a bit without stretching like Armstrong. A spot that is no better than another spot except our personal bias. A spot that we flat out shouldn't or can't dig. Pick one. I think the first two finds were integral to moving the puzzle forward, but I also think they were consumed by the forum in one of the worst possible ways... It seemingly led to everyone just trying to find a plausible path, find a thing, and then dig at/around it. After all, that's how the first two worked, right? What if they worked like that, but that they also worked in another way - one in which you could KNOW you were digging at the correct spot? What if a few were/are pretty straightforward, to get you going (heck, even Preiss helped a bit in Chicago), and you needed to extrapolate how to solve the others? Cause clearly, we ain't in Kansas anymore when we get to Montreal or New York.

Unknown: Sending folks to look for 4 trees in some sort of grouping IN A WOODED PARK is a huge reach to me Seems to be more or less what he did in Milwaukee. I don't know if the four alike are necessarily trees. But given his predilection for the things, and the continuation of the quote: In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight [only stands at the caprice of the minutest event — the falling of a leaf] Falls gently ...I think it's quite possible that the "small, split, three winged and slight" description is not the "four alike", but something in the middle of them, and trees may be involved. But anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of your theory...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Seems to be more or less what he did in Milwaukee. WR, I think the point 421 is trying to make is, the reason you end up at a wooded spot with no distinction about it in the verse, is because something was missed. No doubt you were probably led there by your interpretation of the verse, but that isn't where the casque is. I realized this while digging my 7th or 8th hole at the spot where the path leads you....in regards to that city.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I don't know if the four alike are necessarily trees. But given his predilection for the things, and the continuation of the quote: In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight [only stands at the caprice of the minutest event — the falling of a leaf] Falls gently ...I think it's quite possible that the "small, split, three winged and slight" description is not the "four alike", but something in the middle of them, and trees may be involved. But anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of your theory... I've been thinking about that....a LOT. I like my interpretation of the '4 alike' thing...but that's mainly because I think it would be incredibly clever. Doesn't mean it's right. So, during this hunt, I'm constantly having to differentiate 'impressing myself' from finding the actual solution. Here's something else I noticed: Looking at the 2 puzzles which have been solved...each image shows the actual spot where the item is buried. The actual visual marker is pictured in the imagery. In Chicago, the fence post. In Cleveland, the wall. If this holds true in all of the puzzles, the actual, literal image of where this treasure is buried is pictured in that illustration. Thing is, in both Chicago and Cleveland, the paintings contain a LOT of literal images...some of which dictate the city, and others which dictate the general area. So every image you recognize isn't necessarily a marker to 'dig here'. THAT SAID, among all of those images, there were a couple that said, 'dig here'. So, I'm studying that Houston image...like I have been for the last few years. Anyways, i'll finish my theory later. Today is NFL Game Day...what a lovely day!

accidental post - please delete

May I weigh in for just a moment? First, I agree with Glassell as the starting point, as I proposed that a decade or so ago (more?). I've lost count. I've too spent a lot of time at those fountains and I really like your analysis. I wish I had the nerve to dig around there but it's so public, you're asking for trouble. Never the less if you can narrow it down it might be interesting. However, as we both know, that whole area's been redone and it might not be there any more. Everyone on this board knows where I think it is so there's no need for me to repeat it. Let me say one thing though... I spent much time talking with the zoo director from the 80's John Donaho. I asked him point blank, could Preiss have dug a hole in the CZ without being seen and stopped? He said basically that during those years, the back gate was generally not locked, and if it was it could be very late at night. There were workers with shovels there all the time working on the zoo. At night there were not a lot of visitors but the gates were still open. If Preiss walked in the back gate with a shovel and started digging no one would stop him. If he had a hard hat he might be able to do it any time he wanted. It was his opinion, and one that I value highly, that it was absolutely possible to dig a hole at night without being questioned or stopped. Since John was there I place a lot of stock in his answer. This board has been around a long time and debate has always been it's mantra. I'm interested in seeing where your theory ends up! regards wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: I spent much time talking with the zoo director from the 80's John Donaho. I asked him point blank, could Preiss have dug a hole in the CZ without being seen and stopped? He said basically that during those years, the back gate was generally not locked, and if it was it could be very late at night. There were workers with shovels there all the time working on the zoo. At night there were not a lot of visitors but the gates were still open. If Preiss walked in the back gate with a shovel and started digging no one would stop him. If he had a hard hat he might be able to do it any time he wanted. It was his opinion, and one that I value highly, that it was absolutely possible to dig a hole at night without being questioned or stopped. Since John was there I place a lot of stock in his answer. I understand what you're saying, Wilhouse. I'm just saying that it requires LOTS of 'ifs'...and I don't think that Preiss would include a hunt that entails committing a 'breaking-and-entering'. It just makes no logical sense to me. It is totally out of step with the 2 treasures that have been found. Those were included in places that granted access 24 hours a day. A person could easily go search at 3 in the afternoon or at 3am. Those spots also experienced blocks of time where they were isolated. They were places a bit out of the way. Forgotten corners of larger areas. This template doesn't fit the Children's Zoo. As I said, the ONLY time the zoo would've offered Preiss enough time to dig a hole, bury the casque, cover the hole, and do it in a way that left the spot looking untouched would've been in the middle of the night, when the zoo was closed. MANY 'if's' have to become certainties for this to happen. Again, the Children's Zoo was near the back of the zoo. It was a zoo within the zoo. It was gated..inside of a gated zoo. Remember too, in the 2 locations which have been solved, they were areas that allowed diggers to do so at their leisure. There wasn't a metaphorical stopwatch on them, as if 'we gotta hurry and do this before the cops / employees / security guard' comes. They had time to spend on the task. Time to make mistakes and dig in the wrong spots for a while. HOURS, in fact. Finally...again, I don't believe Preiss would've included a hunt that required searchers to look for it in the same manner that he'd have to hide it, if it was in a zoo (i.e.) in the act of breaking-an-entering on private, gated property. It would be inviting trouble, from a legal point of view...both for him, as well as other people he enticed to imitate him. Again, all of this is just my opinion...and I respect all of you guys and gals who have the mental make-up to try and crack these things: it's maddening. But I think the CZ theory is reaching...reaching that is primarily predicated by those animal-head totem posts...which I believe were only visual markers to say that the zoo was in the general area, similar to the fountain the centaur is holding in Cleveland's puzzle image.

I respect your opinion and I'm fine with it. The only thing I argue with is that there are no markers in the CZ: - columns with horizontal divisions (totems in the CZ), nowhere else to be found - elf fountain (hat on the djinn and the fountain itself) - light poles with orbs on them exactly as in the image (those poles are no where else but in the CZ area and a few in the zoo proper) wilhouse

Dero72 wrote:: Dero, are you having troubles with the forum buttons? Please don't just quote yourself; that's not a new post. Add a comment. Nested quotes do not make the conversation any more meaningful, especially when I can see the original text right above in the previous post. As for me, I dislike the poetic interpretation of clues. I don't think a fountain would ever be described as being "winged" even as an obscure clue. That would be deliberately misleading to me and not at all clever.

catherwood wrote:: Dero, are you having troubles with the forum buttons? Please don't just quote yourself; that's not a new post. Add a comment. Nested quotes do not make the conversation any more meaningful, especially when I can see the original text right above in the previous post. As for me, I dislike the poetic interpretation of clues. I don't think a fountain would ever be described as being "winged" even as an obscure clue. That would be deliberately misleading to me and not at all clever. Yea...I was having some issues with posting. Don't quite know how I quoted myself...multiple times. Don't recall hitting that button. Oh well...please be assured, I'm not trying to look insane on purpose. As far as referring to an element of a fountain as 'winged'...just as poetic as calling the zoo a 'wood'. PotatO / PotAto It's all good: we're all on the same team.

MrSeabass wrote:: Dero - I was with your theory up until you introduced the MGM lion. You went full erexere with that. Full-on confirmation bias based on irrelevant and completely unconnected items. Fair enough. Just trying to account for the space between the Glassell and the Mecom Fountains. And yet, the illusion to a lion and fear...and the connections from that...I thought, 'Who knows?'. None of the other ideas over the last 30 years have solved it, so I figured, 'think laterally, Dero!'. Admittedly, it could be viewed as waaay laterally. But I think we end up in the general area...over by those fountains...in between the 4 alike.

I think the best chance of making new progress with this puzzle is by matching up previously unnoticed objects in the pictures. I reckon there's plenty of scope for that, though you'll probably need to look out for a clean copy of the 1982 edition. (Haven't seen the reprint, but most of the scans knocking about online are a bit rough.) For instance, in the corner of Image 8 there's the suggestion of some kind of plinth or corner steps. I've done this random comparison to indicate it, using one of the aforementioned scans, though it's better defined in the book.

I agree with you to some point, but first don't you think it's important to know what they are for? Also, there are plenty of things in the image which are vague and obscure, things that could be interpreted as almost anything. This is why it's first important to figure out what these clues are meant for.

Just stuff for visitors to look out for I guess. Like Gandhi, say, if the dates weren't out.

wilhouse wrote:: I respect your opinion and I'm fine with it. The only thing I argue with is that there are no markers in the CZ: - columns with horizontal divisions (totems in the CZ), nowhere else to be found - elf fountain (hat on the djinn and the fountain itself) - light poles with orbs on them exactly as in the image (those poles are no where else but in the CZ area and a few in the zoo proper) wilhouse Wilhouse... I just wanted to point out, as an aside, that those light globes WERE elsewhere in the park. When the old Houston Garden Center was still up, there was a pathway that ran from the old Rose Garden, out in front of the main entrance to the Houston Garden Center and down towards the golf course. The pathway was lined with those light posts. At least as recent as the mid-90's. I remember in the mid-90's, getting off of work some nights from the planetarium/museum and walking back to my car in the far parking lot. I'd walk down that pathway, which was really charming during the Fall and Winter. I remember seeing those lights as far back as my teens (mid-80's), and I'll be honest and say I don't recall whether they were there before then...as I had no real reason to notice/remember. I'm just saying that, at least as far back as the mid-80's in my memory, those lights were on that pathway. That pathway is still there, though now it's covered in reddish gravel and has been widened. It used to be much more intimate. That whole Houston Garden area was. I hate what they did to it. Anyways... On that elf fountain...'Bob' :you know, I can kind of see where you are going with that....but I just can't say I'm convinced. I've loved that little statue for a long time: as a kid, he was hilarious (according to me and my kid sister). He sits in the middle of the reflecting pond at the zoo these days. But when I look at him and his hat and all of that, it just offers little to no connection in my eyes with the hooded fella in the image #8. It's a real reach. Little Bob is a fat elf/dwarf...wearing a little elf/dwarf hat. The guy in Image #8 is NOT wearing a hat: he is wearing a middle-eastern style head-wrapping - you can see how it actually wraps around his neck. It's wrapped in a way that he has left his eyes uncovered. Very common desert-gear: not a 'hat'. Even the shape....you know, it's a reach to try and compare the two. Now, the columns...I'll give you that. Those were in the zoo. But as we all know too well, BP has used detailed imagery of objects in the paintings to denote the general area of a casque in question, not necessarily the dig-area. I think those posts were just confirmations that the zoo was nearby...such as the statues, fountains,buildings illustrated in the Cleveland and Chicago painting. Of, I could be wrong about all of the above: I'm wrong a lot.

No worries I appreciate your insight. I'll try to dig up some old photos of the garden center and confirm whether there are those old globe lights there or not. wilhouse

Dero72 wrote:: Of, I could be wrong about all of the above: I'm wrong a lot. I would encourage you to dig a hole and determine for yourself. You do know exactly where to dig, right? Or, is it just an "area?" It'd also be great if after you dig a hole, you report back; though, I can understand apprehension in doing so for a number or reasons. What doesn't help is pushing your idea (or degrading somebody else's) with the assumption you are correct when you have the ability to easily know... Go dig. Only once you have a casque in hand can you present your ideas in a manner suggesting that somebody else's theories are factually incorrect (e.g., the brownie's hat doesn't look like the djinn's). ... Unless, of course, you can factually show why beforehand. Does it really matter if there were globes elsewhere? I mean, I know there were, but how does that fact negate its usefulness in determining a digspot? How many of these puzzles have you looked at, Dero? Does the fence in Chicago ring a bell? Have you ever been there?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I would encourage you to dig a hole and determine for yourself. You do know exactly where to dig, right? Or, is it just an "area?" It'd also be great if after you dig a hole, you report back; though, I can understand apprehension in doing so for a number or reasons. What doesn't help is pushing your idea (or degrading somebody else's) with the assumption you are correct when you have the ability to easily know... Go dig. Only once you have a casque in hand can you present your ideas in a manner suggesting that somebody else's theories are factually incorrect (e.g., the brownie's hat doesn't look like the djinn's). ... Unless, of course, you can factually show why beforehand. Does it really matter if there were globes elsewhere? I mean, I know there were, but how does that fact negate its usefulness in determining a digspot? How many of these puzzles have you looked at, Dero? Does the fence in Chicago ring a bell? Have you ever been there? 1. Well, you CAN'T dig where I think BP planted the casque: it's impossible today. I'll explain that later. But let me say that I think you're being pretty presumptuous, there. You don't really know me or what I've done/dug/etc before I came on this site. I've known about The Secret AND this forum for YEARS. You'd be surprised where I've dug and how many times I've scrapped every idea I had on this and started over. I say that with good feeling and friendly spirit. 2. And to be clear: OF COURSE you DON'T need a casque in hand to criticize someone else's opinion about a detail in the image or in the verse. Why, you have the right to criticize my opinions! Saying the hat doesn't look like what the djinn wears is my OPINION...just as Wilhouse's assertion that it does is an OPINION. I won't get bent out of shape if someone calls my interpretations unreasonable or illogical (which a few folks already have). And I won't demand that they produce the Houston casque before they call my assertions incorrect. That would be silly on my part. NO ONE HAS THE CASQUE. So all opinions are game...both to propose and to be shot down. That IS the atmosphere around here, right? Everyone here does realize we are all on the same team...correct? 3. And YES, it might matter that the globes were elsewhere. Didn't you read what Wilhouse said? His guess that the CZ was the spot was supplemented by, among other things, the fact that those globes were found in the zoo...and his belief that they were possibly nowhere else in the park. The fact that they were could impact his statements to a certain degree...relatively speaking. 4. Your mentioning of the fence in Chicago: well, this brings up something I said in an earlier post: Looking at the 2 puzzles which have been solved...each image shows the actual spot where the item is buried. The actual visual marker is pictured in the imagery. In Chicago, the fence post. In Cleveland, the wall. If this holds true in all of the puzzles, the actual, literal image of where this treasure is buried is pictured in that illustration. Thing is, in both Chicago and Cleveland, the paintings contain a LOT of literal images...some of which dictate the city, and others which dictate the general area. So every image you recognize isn't necessarily a marker to 'dig here'. THAT SAID, among all of those images, there were a couple that said, 'dig here'. So, I'm studying that Houston image...like I have been for the last few years.

Unknown: I think most of the guessing that is common about this particular casque location online is incorrect...in fact, I'm sure of it. And I think I can prove it. Don't blame 421 for holding you to the high standard you yourself set in you initial post. With all due respect, you have offered a lot of opinions (Preiss could not have buried the casque in the CZ, the hat on brownie does not look like the hat on the djinn, the NA column in the Image is a city confirmer as opposed to a location confirmer, aqua tunnel vs fountains, etc.) but very little proof. Is that forthcoming?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Don't blame 421 for holding you to the high standard you yourself set in you initial post. With all due respect, you have offered a lot of opinions (Preiss could not have buried the casque in the CZ, the hat on brownie does not look like the hat on the djinn, the NA column in the Image is a city confirmer as opposed to a location confirmer, aqua tunnel vs fountains, etc.) but very little proof. Is that forthcoming? Didn't set a high bar at all. I said that I don't think that the common ideas about where the casque IS are correct...and I have proof of that. I guess some of the proof is that, in fact, the casque is still missing. And yes, I've still got to type the rest of my hypothesis. But, it's true: I'm almost positive it's not in the zoo...for all of the reasons I've mentioned before. I'll say again, EVERYONE here is offering opinions. You say I've offered a lot: yes, I have. Of course I haven't offered 'proof', because that would make the opinions 'fact'. And until someone is holding a casque in their hands, that's all any of us have. Opinions. I'd like to think I've been very respectful of that...and have repeatedly said that I could be very wrong. But that's not going to make me timid about my opinions...or why I think a certain line of reasoning is not possible. (and I never said the column was a 'city confirmer')...

OK... So where I last left off, we were standing on, what in 1981, would've been a nondescript little block of land located in the center of '4 things alike': the Mecom Colonnade Fountain (smaller and 'split' apart on it's own) and the big Mecom Fountain (a large fountain 'winged' by it's 2 smaller in scale' and 'slight' counterparts). Again, where we are standing can be seen on this old map that dates from the period: We are now standing in the bottom left corner area of this map, on that little triangular block in the center of numbers 1 and 2 (the fountains). Again, the block is bounded on 2 sides by streets called 'Hermann'. Again, in front of us, we are looking at the Mecom Colonnade fountain. A little info about the man after whom the fountains around us are named. John Mecom was an oil magnate. He redeveloped oilfields all over the deserts of the middle east, from Egypt to Saudi Arabia. The desert landscape of image #8 is noteworthy, considering these facts. It was after this man that the Mecom Colonnade Fountain before us was named. I believe this fountain is the plume of water pictured in the foreground of image #8. Here's why: look at the image: Now, see the little symbol beside the plume of water which many have assumed represents a railroad track? I think it actually represents the stone pillars around the Mecom Colonnade Fountain. Look again: See how the pillars encircle the fountain, all connected by a small bridge of sorts? I think the symbol on image #8 can represent this. See how the vertical line, broken apart at intervals by smaller lines (columns) CURVES around the plume of water? I've often thought that the 'shadow' of the plume of water could, in fact, represent oil. I think at this point, we turn our full attention to image #8 and use it to confirm if we are indeed in the right area. From this point, you can visually line things up in the real world with images in the painting. I think, using the plume of water (Mecom Colonnade) as a marker, you can line it up with the Miller Outdoor Theater (djinn) and the hill. You can pretty much do this today (2016), but with not as much ease as you could in 1981 (more on that in a second). So now, you look at that big ball on the pillar in the foreground ('perspective must not be lost'). What could that represent? Well, you have to go back to 1981 and try and visualize what it would've looked like from where you are standing. You'll have to use your imagination though, because 2 big things block your view in 2016: the huge Imax Theater and the Cockrell Butterfly Exhibit. These big monstrosities were built in 1989 and 1994, respectively. Before they existed, the land on which they now stand was a somewhat less-traveled wooded and grassy area. It was parkland, true enough, but a bit more off the beaten path from the far more visible and frequented areas of the park (right across the street). So, go back in time...to 1981. Standing in the middle of those aforementioned fountains, you could visually line up the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade fountain with the Miller Outdoor Theater hill. You would've also seen, without fail, a huge round, dome-shaped structure in the foreground on your left: the Burke Baker Planetarium. It would've been in the exact position of the pillar holding the 'moon' looking ball. I think BP gave further confirmation of the astronomical connection when he placed a star directly above that ball/moon column. I think the other pillars with the animals served to confirm that we were in the general area of the zoo. Nothing more. I know that many think that they mean so much more. I can understand why, I just don't agree. So, looking back at image #8, the gem is lying just adjacent to the 'Planetarium'. I think this is the area where the stone could've been buried. Again, we can't dig in that area...because the Imax and the Cockrell Butterfly House is built over all of this land. For those who are from Houston, try to remember the park and that area beside the museum, before the IMAX and the BC were built. Remember? It was slightly wooded and tucked off to the side. It was off the beaten track. It was definitely INSIDE of the park, and would've provided enough isolation for you to dig at your leisure. Across the way, you could've seen the miniature train go by on it's outermost circuit and heard it's whistle as it crossed the sidewalks just south of the obelisk and reflecting pools. I think you would've been standing in the area BP did when he found a spot to dig. I think there might have been an additional detail or two in the direct vicinity of the actual dig spot. None of this still exists. I think it's very likely that the search is now impossible. Big buildings now sit on top of the burial ground...which really isn't to say that the casque is still 'buried'. Laying the foundation of those buildings (especially the IMAX, whose interior auditorium is below ground level) would've dug the casque up and probably destroyed it. And that's that. For more reference, look at this old map again: The Planetarium and Museum are marked by #4. Note, just beneath the Planetarium on the same plot of land, a nice amount of open space. This was all wooded parkland. This is what I think...and the idea that I feel is most likely. I could be (and I hope I am) wrong. For a few years, I put this puzzle aside, accepting the idea that it's lost underneath the IMAX and the butterflies. But lately, I've seen some other points of view...some of them mentioned by people on this forum. For instance, the ideas regarding the old Houston Garden Center are very interesting. There were days when that place was all but deserted...and I mean in the middle of the day, too. It would've been an amazing place to hide something. So, I'm revisiting things. I understand that there are certain details that I perhaps haven't given enough attention to. That said, I do feel that the popular ideas that this thing is buried in a zoo or in a highly-frequented area of the park 'proper' are incorrect. I feel that there are enough factual points to disqualify these locations, and I've mentioned them already several times before. While the big parts of me feels that the casque is gone, gone, gone...I do have another line of reasoning. I'll type that out in a bit. -dero

This is fun reading, dero - keep it up.

"While the big parts of me feels that the casque is gone, gone, gone...I do have another line of reasoning." This too is sounding more and more like our good friend X. You have stated how sure you are of your solution down to saying you know the exact dig spot which is now unfortunately gone........but then you turn around and say you have another line of reasoning?

fox wrote:: "While the big parts of me feels that the casque is gone, gone, gone...I do have another line of reasoning." This too is sounding more and more like our good friend X. You have stated how sure you are of your solution down to saying you know the exact dig spot which is now unfortunately gone........but then you turn around and say you have another line of reasoning? Well, you quoted what I said in your post but then misquoted it in your response. 'WHILE THE BIG PARTS OF ME FEEL the casque is gone, gone, gone...' implies that there is still another part of me (albeit smaller) that isn't absolutely 100% about my theory. In other words - my idea, as close as I think it is to truth, might be VERY wrong...no matter how much I believe in it. Listen guys, I don't want to fight. I like my theory. I've tested it. I'm 80% sure of it...which is pretty sure...but I'm still open to another line of reasoning because I'm a human being and as long as I don't have a casque in my hands, I might be wrong. I've been wrong before. At the same time, regarding other theories I've heard which have been somewhat generally accepted, I feel fairly certain that they are not likely, because of facts about the places cited that disqualifies them. So in some cases, I'm saying, 'I may not be able to supply enough evidence to prove where the casque IS, but I think I have enough supplemental evidence to say where the casque ISN'T'. I've only casually browsed these forums over the last 3 or 4 years, and have seen some slight disagreements here and there...but there must've been some pretty brutal wars on this forum in the past. Guys, I'm in this for the fun of it, that's all. I shoot straight on what I don't think is correct, but I will never make it personal, won't call names, or try to insult your intelligence. If you want a flame war or any other static, I'll help you out right now and declare you the winner. I won't fight back. Don't mistake my criticism of an idea as an attack on your intellectual prowess or character or whatever. In puzzle mode, it's all just A+B=C to me...nothing personal at all. And who is 'X'? - dero

Dero72 wrote:: I have no doubt at all about what this is, and it's very important...as it gives us our very first clue to exactly where we should be physically standing to begin this quest. There's a tendency to interpret these verses in terms of a logical trail from one thing to another, but that's just not how they work. Where M and B are set in stone And to Congress, R is known L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder To find this casque you don't start at Symphony Hall, then proceed to to Roosevelt University, then double back down the road to Grant Park. BP is simply namechecking various things in the vicinity in no particular order. In Hermann Park likewise this may very well be what he's doing. The problem is that in Chicago, we can still see the landmark related to the casque: L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder But in Milwaukee and Houston, we can't, since the "tall proud fifth" and the "four alike" are almost certainly gone. It's still interesting to try and unpick the references though. Perhaps the key part of the verse is: Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike ...since these lines seem to be directions to a certain place, rather than a list of local things. I still feel the miniature railway is the most likely candidate for "Small of scale / Step across", though the "Perspective" remains a mystery, so perhaps not.

Dero, please do not be offended. Since you are so familiar with this area and how it looked when the treasure was hidden, that automatically makes you very valuable to this board. I and others are listening mostly with "hushed silence" while you "speak," since there aren't many people like you who have that type of experience, and we value your opinion and want to hear your thoughts. Please finish them, if you have not yet done so. I assume you would like to hear what we think about your theories, and so you will hear some discussion which may point out some holes in your theory. Please do not be offended by that - we are just trying to help, and are all "on the same team" trying to figure out the solution. Some people are not as tactful as others in pointing these things out, but please do not take that personally. We like your posts! I am interested in whether you can explain some of the other things in Image 8 and the related verse. There is the funny looking leaf to the right of the rhino's head, which looks like a sideways ghost to me, and is probably something you can see in the vicinity of the treasure. On the rhino pole, there are 2 leaves which appear to be on the tree, but also painted onto the pole. There also appears to be an overhead map in the upper right corner of the Image, and to the left of that, either a Z or a 2 in "negative space." There is another funny looking leaf closer to the globe pole (which you say is the planetarium), which looks a lot like the other funny looking leaf. There appears to be one or two stripes under the camel. Did you see the post about the indentation at the bottom of the globe pole matching an actual indentation on an actual pole? I would think that that is an image confirmer if true. As for your theories, I am waiting until you are done posting them before I say anything. But again, please do not be offended by some of the people on here - we are just trying to figure it out together. Thanks.

Totally agree with Sir Egg. I wasn't meaning to offend and actually like your theories

Eg, those two funny-lookin' leaves are almost certainly larkspurs, the birth flower for July.

forest_blight wrote:: Eg, those two funny-lookin' leaves are almost certainly larkspurs, the birth flower for July. Almost ?

There was a larkspur tree in the CZ. There's a Larkspur st. in Houston wilhouse

Good thoughts. Swamped with finishing a job, at the moment, but have another idea or two which I'd like to see if anyone has mentioned before. I'll post it later. - dero

Interesting. Do you remember where the larkspur tree was inside the CZ, wilhouse?

Next to the Llama pen. Somewhere I have a photo. I'll look around. wilhouse

Pretty sure larkspur isn't a tree, guys...

forest_blight wrote:: Pretty sure larkspur isn't a tree, guys... Thank you, fb. Between Egbert asking what the sideways ghost was and Wilhouse saying they is a Larkspur tree, I was beginning to think that the old timers had all lost their minds... With hushed silence, of course.

You are a rascal 421.

Haha thanks guys. I was quickly reminded that it was the flower not the tree. Anyway, back to dero's theory...

I'm not a horticulaturist, but Larkspur is certainly a tree. Just ask mr. google... hxxp://larkspurtrees.org/american-elm.html wilhouse

Clicking too fast :-) That's a list of trees in the city of Larkspur CA hxxp://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/flowers/larkspur/growing-annual-larkspur-plants.htm

Haha you're right!

Egbert wrote:: I am interested in whether you can explain some of the other things in Image 8 and the related verse. There is the funny looking leaf to the right of the rhino's head, which looks like a sideways ghost to me, and is probably something you can see in the vicinity of the treasure. On the rhino pole, there are 2 leaves which appear to be on the tree, but also painted onto the pole. There also appears to be an overhead map in the upper right corner of the Image, and to the left of that, either a Z or a 2 in "negative space." There is another funny looking leaf closer to the globe pole (which you say is the planetarium), which looks a lot like the other funny looking leaf. There appears to be one or two stripes under the camel. Did you see the post about the indentation at the bottom of the globe pole matching an actual indentation on an actual pole? I would think that that is an image confirmer if true. Well, as far as the funny looking 'ghost' leaf...I have no idea what that is. Could it have been a visual marker? Of course. See, that's the issue here. In the area where I believe the casque was buried, there was a sizable area of trees, undergrowth, and parkland. Again, all of this area is now gone, as the IMAX Theater and Butterfly Center are built in that space...and it's a HUGE space. Any visual markers, then, that were onsite and also pictured in the painting, are simply gone. They are lost to us, as is (i fear) the casque.

Hi... Sorry I've been swamped with work lately, and couldn't post. So, another detail in the image that I believe endorses the fact that the big sphere on the column in image 8 represents the Burke Baker Planetarium: the accompanying verse for this image mentions 'December'. Lots of people have speculated on the significance of this mention. In the early 80's, the Burke Baker Planetarium began showing a presentation during Christmas season called 'The Star of Bethlehem'. It explored possible scientific astronomical explanations for what the 'star' mentioned in the baby Jesus story could've been. It was a very popular show when it came out, and I remember it stimulating a bit of controversy from the right-wing bible thumpers who didn't like the implication that the star was anything other than the hand of 'god', or whatever. When looking at image 8, you see the giant sphere (which I believe represented the planetarium dome), and a single bright star above it. On one of the pillars you also see a camel, which is customarily shown in 'birth of Jesus/Christmas star' artwork. I think all of these things, plus the mention of 'December', point to the parkland area which was directly adjacent to the planetarium, now unfortunately occupied by the IMAX Theater and Butterfly Center. It was a large tract of land full of trees and clearings before they built the IMAX/Butterfly center. I think the column that the sphere sits on and other visual details in the image were likely in this area, and now no longer exist. I understand that this may be a bit of looking for details to confirm a theory I think is clever...but really, that's all any of this is.

The planetarium has some appeal given the star, but I don't honestly think the roof of that building could be said to have any resemblance to the pillar. They share an arc is all, which is a pretty generic shape.

The planetarium may be a generic shape, but it is in a specific place which matches the primary focus of the image8 campaign, therefore derro72 has made an excellent observation. I would next consider how it works in terms of perspective and how it exactly matches the arc of the pillar's top from a 360-degree search pattern for a secondary visual confirmer such as the tilted stone piers of the MOT to narrow things down further.

This image is subject to distortions from the fisheye of the google camera but I found it interesting to compare the relative size of the Sam Houston statue at a place that is a similar distance from the planetarium which I've had to estimate in size given it's obscured by trees. I think these two objects help to indicate a frame of reference at another point in the park, several points actually, given that we might be up against flip-flop of North/South or East/West perspectives. Based on the relative size of the planetarium, we might consider any of these blue circles as options, but adding in the size of the Sam Houston statue at a distance, and perhaps those closest to the tilted stones of the Miller Outdoor Theater. It all depends on what we choose to take into account as we decide on the correct paradigm used for this puzzle location.

Well.... You all have been busy lately! Dero, thanks for coming along and sharing your insights. What an interesting theory, from someone who is actually quite familiar with this space in 1981/1982. I used to spend lots of time in hermann park in 2008-2010. I too have concerns about the viability of digging in some places of the park, even in 1981. At the end of 2015, I visited the place in grant park where the casque there was found. It's in this funny little nook that is nearly unnoticed, even today. So I can see where you are coming from on this. Definitely looking forward to hearing more from you.

Having said this..I looked closely at the ball on top of the pillar, and it appears to say the words 'Burke Baker' and since the bottom of the pillar is, imo, the image of the Sam Houston monument. It makes sense.

I found a reasonably good looking confirmation clue of something by holding a mirror along the left edge of the image, thus completing the other half of what typifies a clear case of the vanishing point perspective. Its still somewhat subtle, but much larger than what would be considered a small coincidence. I'm curious to see if anyone can find it before I post the visual comparison to a photograph of the landmark.

I'm guessing it's one of these two images:

I knew before looking that you would find that penis. Nice work, you deviant. I was thinking more along these lines, so partial credit goes to Hirudiniforme.

erexere wrote:: I knew before looking that you would find that penis. Nice work, you deviant. I was thinking more along these lines, so partial credit goes to Hirudiniforme. Unfortunately, this puzzle is a dichotomously scored multiple-choice question. And the key is not "atropos."

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I'm guessing it's one of these two images: Nice Girth

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Unfortunately, this puzzle is a dichotomously scored multiple-choice question. And the key is not "atropos." Surely it all depends on asking the right question(s). Why do you say "atropos" is not the key? You don't believe the quote from Melville opens up that possibility, given that it calls out a the group of three mythological sisters, one of which just happens to be named Atropos?

erexere wrote:: Surely it all depends on asking the right question(s). Why do you say "atropos" is not the key? You don't believe the quote from Melville opens up that possibility, given that it calls out a the group of three mythological sisters, one of which just happens to be named Atropos? Where is the group of three mythological sisters here, erexere? And, the terminology I was using was a play on the quote and test terminology... you mentioned partial credit (typically given in multi-select questions); but I was pointing out that there is no partial credit in this puzzle (i.e., the answer is either right or wrong - dichotomous scoring). The "key" in testing is the correct answer.

further down the page:

erexere wrote:: further down the page: Unknown: You don't believe the quote from Melville opens up that possibility, given that it calls out a the group of three mythological sisters, one of which just happens to be named Atropos So, can we pick something from a little further down the page? The next page? 10 pages later? The last page? So, what you're saying is not true. The Melville quote does not call out a group of three mythological sisters... rather, another portion of the book does.

No, not the entirety of the book, just the one page. I should've wrote my question more accurately to point out that the page where the quote is found also contains the words "Three Weird Ones" and that may offer the possibility that Atropos is important to the puzzle.

erexere wrote:: No, not the entirety of the book, just the one page. I should've wrote my question more accurately to point out that the page where the quote is found also contains the words "Three Weird Ones" and that may offer the possibility that Atropos is important to the puzzle. Someday I will loose a puzzle fact regarding the Melville quote (among other things), and you will be pissed at how much time you wasted. Until then, I guess you could be right... Can you tell me how many pages I can use for the "build palaces" quote or the "edwin and edwina" quote? Am I allowed to use one page there, too?

Someday? What's holding you back from expressing those factual points now? Any new information you're prepared to bring is welcome.

erexere wrote:: Someday? What's holding you back from expressing those factual points now? I haven't dug up all the casques yet. Besides, I've tried time and time again to steer you(all) toward looking at these puzzles a little differently, but nobody seems to wanna. I could tell you now, but we both know the only thing that will convince you that you can know a location before you dig is a few pictures of casques.

Unknown: Someday I will loose a puzzle fact regarding the Melville quote (among other things), and you will be pissed at how much time you wasted. The research we do, like the holes we dig, have this in common; we can always dig just a little bit deeper. I think this is the exact opposite of what Preiss had in mind for us when he stated "A little digging is the task" in the opening poem. But now that he's gone, and seemingly taken the secret with him, we have no other choice if we ever hope to recover the next casque, and the one after that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: The research we do... And by "we," he means himself. I don't work with old curmudgeons who are bent on finding Bible clues.

I like the way you put "we could always dig a little deeper." It would go well on a t-shirt. "jail if dig," is still a my favorite.

Has anyone scouted the location in sam houston herman park? I live in downtown houston and im free during the day when few people are around. I dont mind looking around and staying in contact with someone to help find the treasure.

I figure instead of digging a hole in the areas, we could use a 4-5ft sewing kinda needle to poke around and see if we hit anything in the areas mentioned.

Unknown: The Ruby out of Araby: Scarlet desert sky at dawn. Unknown: Death ("Maweth") is sometimes personified as a devil or angel of death (e.g., Habakkuk 2:5; Job 18:13).[4] In both the Book of Hosea and the Book of Jeremiah, Maweth/Mot is mentioned as a deity to whom Yahweh can turn over Judah as punishment for worshiping other gods. The Arabic culture is well recognized for its contributions to astronomy. Given the recent interest in then planetarium I think its a good thing to once again look at the In the Litany of the Jewels on page 20 and 21 of the Secret. I adventurously plugged the words december dawn stars arabic astronomy into an internet search and found this: Arab Star Calendars | Two Deserts, One Sky » Jawza’, Snow Queen of the Arabs hxxp://onesky.arizona.edu/2015/12/jawza ... he-arabs/n , which leads me to wonder if the Belt of Orion makes as a good example of lining up three stars in a row has a parallel to the finding of the casque spot. On the side Ive been wondering about the common reference of "morning star" as a link to the fallen angel or perhaps the context of death. In the Semitic Arabic/Hebrew scriptures, When I saw the reference to MOT, I wondered if there's something to Byron's choosing of the Miller Outdoor Theater (MOT) going on.

erexere wrote:: When I saw the reference to MOT, I wondered if there's something to Byron's choosing of the Miller Outdoor Theater (MOT) going on. bon mot here.

Im uncertain of where exactly the connecting of the apex of the MOT to the face of the Atropos Key gets us. I think a perspective taken from the eye level with ground is a good place to start.

erexere wrote:: Im uncertain of where exactly the connecting of the apex of the MOT to the face of the Atropos Key gets us.

Overlapping the image at a perfect 90-degree on the point in the horizon where the dune contacts the edge gives a lot more of a contour match to the Atropos Key sculpture.

Hermann Rorschach?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Rorschach

erexere wrote:: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Rorschach https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepalm

erexere i think you're pretty far out in the weeds. Neither the author nor the artist, based on anything that we've seen from the two solved puzzles has that level of abstraction.

RacerX330, thank you for the response. So you think the use of a Herman Melville quote is okay, but the use of a Hermann Rorschach visual is too abstract when designing a puzzle to do with Hermann Park? Why do you think the artist chose to draw an edge-centered vanishing point rather than a normal centered vanishing point? Thats why I tried using a mirror approach.

A facepalm (sometimes also face-palm or face palm) is the physical gesture of placing one's hand flat across one's face or lowering one's face into one's hand or hands, covering or closing the eyes. The gesture is often exaggerated by giving the motion more force and making a slapping noise when the hand comes in contact with the face. The gesture is found in many cultures as a display of frustration, disappointment, exasperation, embarrassment, horror, shock, surprise, exhaustion, sarcasm or incredulous disbelief. Just FYI

erexere wrote:: RacerX330, thank you for the response. So you think the use of a Herman Melville quote is okay, but the use of a Hermann Rorschach visual is too abstract when designing a puzzle to do with Hermann Park? Why do you think the artist chose to draw an edge-centered vanishing point rather than a normal centered vanishing point? Thats why I tried using a mirror approach. Preiss was an author. Educated at the University of Pennsylvania and later Stanford. He was a well-educated and well-read man. So the literary clue isn't unexpected. The puzzles are a combination of verse and image. Based on the history that we have for the puzzles that have been solved, none have exhibited the level of abstraction that you are diving into. Additionally, based on what we know, there are no hidden clues based on abstract mirroring, rotation or any of the abstracts that can be done easily with technology available to even the most casual computer user today, but not available to even some of the most sophisticated and wealthy computer users in 1981. The images are simply visual representations disguised in art. The Apple Macintosh wasn't introduced until 1984, and the Commodore 64 didn't reach the market until January of 1982.

My premise isn't that the puzzle requires the aid of computer technology. That's why I took a photo of image 8 being held to a mirror at a 45 degree angle. My premise is that Preiss connected his puzzle to two well publicized people having the same name as the park. He integrated the literary author into the puzzle as a quote and he integrated the psychologist's projective test in the visual portion. I think the concrete evidence of the vanishing point perspective being off-center is a major clue to how this must be interpreted. Presenting the point as it runs to the left edge of the pane is definitely one way of suggesting there's a "missing" portion of the image. Image 8 is definitely abstract in several respects, so I don't think you can successfully argue that Preiss isn't using abstraction. Check out this blog post for more information on vanishing points: hxxp://www.benzilla.com/?p=3683 Can it be said with certainty that the previous puzzles didn't involve analysis of perspective or the use of unorthodox methods to hide a visual clue? It could be argued that anything could be replicated in terms of advanced technology, but it's quite conceivable that he had access to tracing paper and could've hand rotated any reversed image, as is evident by the upside-down Terminal Tower or the centaur's tail in image 4.

You have again, taken this to a level of abstraction that simply isn't required to make a connection. the example you point out does not require mirroring to match. a simple rotation is sufficient. simply rotating the artwork on paper to match a paper map is quite sufficient. this, i might point out, is a solution one could conclude without an electronic device of any kind, except a light bulb. My previous reply had nothing to with your premise being about technology, it was more of an expression that you wandered off into pipe dream. There are no solutions that involve the abstract "visual cryptography" for lack of a better phrase, that you are describing. The solutions are not that complex. Our issue in determining the location of the Houston treasure, and likely many others, is simply the passage of time and relocation of the original visual clues buried in the artwork and the textual clues written in the verse(s). We cannot travel back in time to 1982 and visually match up what existed in Hermann park and match it against the artwork, even if we have a very good idea of where the item might be. There is simply no amount of abstract image manipulation that will solve that problem. Nonetheless, the entire point of my post was to "bound" the discussion back into the realm of usefulness. It was my attempt to bring you back to planet earth without being rude or insulting, which I do not wish to be. However, at times, it feels like your posts are more of a deep dive in cryptographic distraction than they are furthering the cause of discovery. I can nearly guarantee that neither Priess nor JJP were concerned with being that cryptic and complex. Remember, that it was BP's opinion that the treasures would be found within a month of the book's publishing. The solutions we seek are more than likely to be about history, than the discovery of a cryptic clue that no one has seen in the same image in 35 years. Such as discovering a lost photo of a key location, or running into the right Houstonian that has a specific memory of a proposed treasure spot.

RacerX330 wrote:: Nonetheless, the entire point of my post was to "bound" the discussion back into the realm of usefulness. The solutions we seek are more than likely to be about history, than the discovery of a cryptic clue that no one has seen in the same image in 35 years. Such as discovering a lost photo of a key location, or running into the right Houstonian that has a specific memory of a proposed treasure spot. Thank you Racer. This cannot be emphasized enough. I can't tell you how much time I've spent searching local museums, art galleries, and the historical section of the College of Charleston, bought '80s era brochures, pamphlets and books, talked to historians, etc, etc, etc...just so that ONE PIECE of info that I haven't seen before might make a spot click. In the meantime, I'm looking at and probing other potential spots, so those can (hopefully) be ruled out as well. I've got nothing against the abstract theorizing, but damn, it seems like all we do is debate about how the puzzle is setup/executed vs going out to the parks, visualizing, and getting our hands dirty. My 2 cents.

Unknown: The solutions we seek are more than likely to be about history, than the discovery of a cryptic clue that no one has seen in the same image in 35 years. Such as discovering a lost photo of a key location, or running into the right Houstonian that has a specific memory of a proposed treasure spot. Of the three things mentioned above (looking at the puzzle in a different manner, finding a historical photograph, or relying on institutional memory), my sense is that the one most likely to produce the result we want is the one being least considered. While we may not have all the information we need to be able to precisely locate where the treasure was buried in Chicago, we could still find the Treasure Ground today. The same is true in the Cleveland, only more so since the Treasure Ground was, and remains self-contained. Given those facts, is it so hard to believe that more than a few of the 10 remaining casques are still exactly where Preiss buried them, and that we have all the information we need to find them?

Holding a mirror to an image shouldnt be out of bounds. Thats the basis of my inquiry and though there is a degree of abstraction to that effort it is careless to qualify it as "too abstract" as if there is no basis whatsoever in how the previous puzzles were solved. After Racer declared there is no evidence, I posted a pic of a mirrored roadway in Cleveland. Racer then brushes it off by saying only rotation and a lightbulb are needed. Wrong. It is also mirrored and I showed you all a picture to prove it. Denying that visual proof is careless. Taking care to clarify the degree of abstraction is important to solving the puzzle. These paintings arent filled with literal matches, abstraction is the root of many key visuals, whether its negative space, under rotation, or a partial outline of a unique type of shape. The degree of that abstraction should be qualified, like the example of the Melville quote where the Weird sisters are mentioned on the same page would be more removed than being in the same paragraph or it would be "too abstract" to expect the clue to be recovered from a different page or chapter. With a visual example, I'm more comfortable taking a 90 or 180 degree rotation than I am with 17 or 23 degree. I've cited the techical difference between the natural "dead-centered" vanishing point and the off-centered edgewise vanishing point and that IS justification for my approach. Inquiry follows evidence and yet I see criticisms that fall far short of being pointed or correct. It would be nice to see alternative conclusions, but to brush off a show of evidence and act like youve found an optimal methodology that ignores important clues is careless. E: tj, I appreiate your comment about historical evidence. It would be nice to see some more discussion about that and some substance to work with. I'm showing the visual contrast of a sculpture and building shape in Hermann Park as compared to the image using a mirror to privide substance. I think thats about as real as it can get without actually being there in person to see how the whole setting matches up. Maybe someone in Houston can test my hypothesis.

Unknown: You often see drawings where people just arbitrarily place a single [vanishing-point] somewhere on the page and then start drawing. ...It’s not a big no-no and frankly you see people do it all the time. Unknown: A professor of mine taught us a way to draw lines to vanishing points that went off the page... some discussions about single-vanishing-point perspectives. hxxp://www.benzilla.com/?p=3683 hxxp://www.conceptart.org/forums/showth ... hing-point hxxp://www.thedrawingwebsite.com/wp-con ... e-page.jpg The location of VP is an artistic choice, not a hard rule.

I don't see it as a case of being a hard rule. In visual reality, the vanishing point IS dead-center. In the drawn medium, an artist can deviate however it suits their purpose. What that purpose was, be it JJP's choice or BP's instruction, is a reasonable inquiry.

erexere wrote:: Holding a mirror to an image shouldnt be out of bounds. Thats the basis of my inquiry and though there is a degree of abstraction to that effort it is careless to qualify it as "too abstract" as if there is no basis whatsoever in how the previous puzzles were solved. After Racer declared there is no evidence, I posted a pic of a mirrored roadway in Cleveland. Racer then brushes it off by saying only rotation and a lightbulb are needed. Wrong. It is also mirrored and I showed you all a picture to prove it. Denying that visual proof is careless. Taking care to clarify the degree of abstraction is important to solving the puzzle. These paintings arent filled with literal matches, abstraction is the root of many key visuals, whether its negative space, under rotation, or a partial outline of a unique type of shape. The degree of that abstraction should be qualified, like the example of the Melville quote where the Weird sisters are mentioned on the same page would be more removed than being in the same paragraph or it would be "too abstract" to expect the clue to be recovered from a different page or chapter. With a visual example, I'm more comfortable taking a 90 or 180 degree rotation than I am with 17 or 23 degree. I've cited the techical difference between the natural "dead-centered" vanishing point and the off-centered edgewise vanishing point and that IS justification for my approach. Inquiry follows evidence and yet I see criticisms that fall far short of being pointed or correct. It would be nice to see alternative conclusions, but to brush off a show of evidence and act like youve found an optimal methodology that ignores important clues is careless. E: tj, I appreiate your comment about historical evidence. It would be nice to see some more discussion about that and some substance to work with. I'm showing the visual contrast of a sculpture and building shape in Hermann Park as compared to the image using a mirror to privide substance. I think thats about as real as it can get without actually being there in person to see how the whole setting matches up. Maybe someone in Houston can test my hypothesis. You have taken the level abstraction far far far far beyond the original artists intent. We're no longer discussing degrees of abstraction when reading your posts, it has steadily become orders of magnitude. Stop getting mad at me for pointing that out. It's not MY fault that you're going off into the weeds. Your evidence hasn't provided any real progress, so don't act like you've solved any great mysteries here. Your abstraction is a distraction. Additionally, I am here in person on the ground in Houston, TX. I can tell you as a person, on the ground in Houston, TX, that your abstraction is pretty much useless. It is not measurable in any meaningful way in real life. Let's focus on making progress, and less about vanishing points or whatever other useless abstraction distraction that has nothing to do with any of the previous solutions. This brings my discussion of this matter to a close.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Of the three things mentioned above (looking at the puzzle in a different manner, finding a historical photograph, or relying on institutional memory), my sense is that the one most likely to produce the result we want is the one being least considered. While we may not have all the information we need to be able to precisely locate where the treasure was buried in Chicago, we could still find the Treasure Ground today. The same is true in the Cleveland, only more so since the Treasure Ground was, and remains self-contained. Given those facts, is it so hard to believe that more than a few of the 10 remaining casques are still exactly where Preiss buried them, and that we have all the information we need to find them? This is such a great point that you brought up. All the information that is needed is present in the verse and image. The problem, at least here in Houston, is that Hermann Park and its surroundings have undergone substantial changes in the past 30+ years. So the issue isn't that all of the information isn't present in the clues, it's that the references they point to, may or may not be there anymore. So, for us, it'll be important to attempt to travel back in time, as best we can, with historical snapshots. This is the hard part. This is what wilhouse spent much of his time doing. There is a section of the Julia Ideson Library in downtown Houston has a vast collection of historical maps, photos, architectural drawings and other items. It is part of a special collection. Unfortunately, these collections have not yet been digitized completely. I am going to try to get down there tomorrow and possibly make a phone call to the librarians that curate the collection and discuss Hermann Park and the Zoo next week. Another interesting set of Houston facts. We tend not to keep things around simply for historical purposes, while unfortunate, many times the economic value of the space is simply overwhelming compared to the cost of keeping around buildings and spaces of considerable age and maintenance cost. The changes that have been made as a result of capital projects in both the downtown and medical center area in the past 5 years, let alone 10, are massive. Houston is a city that is in a constant state of change, especially its green spaces. There are sections of town that I don't get to often, and in the span of 1 or 2 years, the area can look dramatically different since the last time I saw it, and I get around quite a bit. The Hermann Park Conservancy which has managed Hermann Park for a number of decades is well-funded by the community and supported and they are always working to improve the use and access to that area, which means change. Houston is living city, truly unlike any other city in the USA. Yes Chicago, New York, and LA are always changing too, but the pace of change here in Houston is astonishing.

Well that doesnt work. If you dont see how the presence of the shape of the Terminal Tower in the Cleveland image is an abstraction, described as 1) rotated 180 degrees and 2) full silhouette in negative space, then you're not understanding how this puzzle works. If the iconic shape of the Atropos Key sculpture is being captured in the form of 1) a 45 degree rotation, and 2) half-silhouette (possibly Rorschach style), then that at least follows the Cleveland example, although it seems some degree more difficult to perceive. How about we give this a shot?

Remember these? https://youtu.be/vuSlejnid1A

Where is that facepalm meme when I need it

Why do you make such a big deal out of my posts when you dont put anything on the board to evaluate? You've shared a lot of words and mentioned some places and ideas about how to go about some alternative or "acceptable" approach, but what that is exactly or some concrete subject of focus has yet to be seen. Please SHARE...or hang out and participate. People should really work on this and stop talking about facepalm or drawing penises.

erexere wrote:: Why do you make such a big deal out of my posts when you dont put anything on the board to evaluate? You've shared a lot of words and mentioned some places and ideas about how to go about some alternative or "acceptable" approach, but what that is exactly or some concrete subject of focus has yet to be seen. Please SHARE...or hang out and participate. People should really work on this and stop talking about facepalm or drawing penises. Maybe you should stop drawing penises and making stupid posts and we would be able to focus on something else.

Unknown: Maybe you should stop drawing penises and making stupid posts and we would be able to focus on something else. Just to be clear, I am not a fan of most of Eric's theories, but to blame him for the lack of progress on the puzzle seems a little unfair to me. And he's not the one drawing penises (peneses, penii). That would be my incorrigible friend 421. If you don't like what Eric has to offer, to the point that you find it distracting, it's a very simple matter to put him on ignore. Personally, I think that would be a mistake, but that's just my opinion.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Just to be clear, I am not a fan of most of Eric's theories, but to blame him for the lack of progress on the puzzle seems a little unfair to me. And he's not the one drawing penises (peneses, penii). That would be my incorrigible friend 421. If you don't like what Eric has to offer, to the point that you find it distracting, it's a very simple matter to put him on ignore. Personally, I think that would be a mistake, but that's just my opinion. i don't blame him or anyone else for the lack of progress. i never stated that. please don't put words in my mouth. i do however find his posts distracting.

Stop being a whiner. I'm sorry if you find my posts distracting. This forum is a place to share ideas. If you dont like an idea, there are several options available to you, 1) debunk the ideas you dont find worthy of this forum 2) place user on your ignore list 3) join the cabal 4) increase your intake of antidepressants

erexere wrote:: Stop being a whiner. I'm sorry if you find my posts distracting. This forum is a place to share ideas. If you dont like an idea, there are several options available to you, 1) debunk the ideas you dont find worthy of this forum 2) place user on your ignore list 3) join the cabal 4) increase your intake of antidepressants Ok that was funny...sounds like something Dee would say.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Just to be clear, I am not a fan of most of Eric's theories, but to blame him for the lack of progress on the puzzle seems a little unfair to me. And he's not the one drawing penises (peneses, penii). That would be my incorrigible friend 421. If you don't like what Eric has to offer, to the point that you find it distracting, it's a very simple matter to put him on ignore. Personally, I think that would be a mistake, but that's just my opinion. Racer, Renovator is right, and there is a lack of progress...on this forum, mainly because when idea's are posted, they are criticized to death, but with no prerequisite for criticism other that peoples individual theories on how the puzzle is supposed to be solved. Because the method of how to solve the puzzle has never been laid out, there is too much speculation on everyone's part as to what is right and wrong. Also there are a number of other "stumbling blocks" going on with the forum in relation to the puzzle. People want to talk about dig spots...but unfortunately that isn't going to work if people have no concept of how to find and work the clues, or if everyone's concept of "what" and "how" and right and wrong is different across the board.

I wanted to read through the complete threads for both Image 8 and Verse 1 before commenting on this search, but has anyone ever attempted to link either I8 or V1 to other cities? (Full disclosure: while I have spent some time in Texas, all of my visits to Houston have been limited to airport layovers. Digging is frowned upon at IAH!) Just throwing this thought out there to spark discussion, but that tower with a ball on top of it in I8 always reminds me of the Sunsphere Tower in Knoxville, Tennessee. I actually went to the 1 982 World's Fair myself when I was a kid, although I was too young to remember anything. Lots of great VHS videos about the Fair have been uploaded to Youtube, though. Be sure to adjust the tracking if you end up diving down the Internet rabbit hole! hxxp://www.worldsfairphotos.com/knoxvil ... aug-82.pdf

Unknown: Completed in 1926, the "flying cage", as it was called, was the largest structure in the zoo. Although Hurricane Carla destroyed the aviary's wire superstructure in 1961, the concrete faux bois sculptures designed by Dionicio Rodriguez remain. These include a fountain, logs, ledges, and rock bordering a shallow pond. From West, at close of day, Beneath sails brilliant as a peacock's fan, Djinni arrived. The Djinni are Houstonians; reminded me of the Hermann Park aviary . (Not sure when that was written.)

Or...could Dallas, TX be a possibility for I8? The Reunion Tower here (built in 1978) also has the same general shape. https://reuniontower.com

Unknown: A periscope is an instrument for observation over, around or through an object, obstacle or condition that prevents direct line-of-sight observation from an observer's current position. Random Fair Folk fact: a hippo* invented the Peri-scope. It is used to spy on Djinn through or around obstacles. Recent sightings of these sneaky squatters of Araby have been reported on the peak of the Miller Outdoor Theater. * Hippolyte Marié-Davy E: this wasn't meant to be trollish. Given the recent climate of sorties or whathaveyou depending on people's mugwumppish stance, I just want to embrace the principle essentials put forth by the book itself. Try to have fun and make sense in the contexts provided.

erexere wrote:: I'm not done considering the Atropos Key as "Three winged and slight", the skeletal sculpture of one of the three sisters of Fate. The sculpture stands across a step, "step across". You can see the 982 from this spot on the hill. Maybe someone thought of this before, but the diamond shape in the "face" part of the sculpture has four equal length edges.  It's a fairly tall statue, twice as tall as a person, and if you stand at the right spot on the hill you can see the peak of the Miller Outdoor Theater fit into it's center, "In the center of four alike". When did Indiana Jones come out? Can you see what I'm thinking? So, is it possible Preiss thought of adapting the idea used in Raiders of the Lost Ark to make this fun and current?  Indiana Jones places the medallion on a staff of the correct length and places it at the correct point on a miniature replica of an ancient town in order to catch the right angle of the suns light.  The jeweled center focuses the light into a beam that shows him where the ark is buried.  It seems we have many of the same conditions here.  The head of the sculpture looks like rays of the sun.  The center of its face becomes the focal point.  The object of the right height becomes the theater's peak.  Where we stand to see this alignment becomes the spot to dig. I posted this back in 2012 before I learned a number of things which later confirmed my proposed questions. 1) on the same page as the Melville quote from Pierre it literally talks about the Three Weird Ones: Atropos is one of those three sisters. 2) Raiders of the Lost Ark came out a year before the book. So it is possible Preiss simulated the method used to hide/find the Lost Ark. 3) you literally look "through the wood" since the name Woodward is on the sculptures plaque and you peer through the diamond space to align the casque spot with the tip of MOT in the four equal sided center. Here's my crude mockup of a person laying on their back, looking back through a paper roll tube from treasure ground through the Wood[ward] sculpture and the apex of MOT is seen through four exactly equal sides of it's diamond face hole:

I know I am swimming upstream and that many do not even consider alternative theories for Houston, but I believe that a reference to V5 may be present in illustration 8. At P2 (bottom left corner), there is a paving stone that is broken in two. That broken stone sits within two rows of 11 paving stones. One broken stone in 2 pieces, 22 total stones in those rows. They are the only rows in the illustration that can definitively be counted due to lack of obstruction. Two Twenty Two? That observation might confirm a suspicion of mine (based on other factors) that I8 might actually be paired to V5. This theory takes into account the multiple images present in the illustration that were previously considered Red Herrings and puts them center stage. Is the 222 straw just too long of one to be grasping at?

A-dubs, I applaud you for sharing you idea. While I don't agree with the P8V5 pairing, I find your observation VERY interesting. I think it's very cool to look the puzzles in new ways. That's how we're going to solve these some day.

Let's talk about the columns. Here's what I see. The front column appears to represent the shape of the area around the Sam Houston statue and the reflection pool. This seems too simple but the thing that caught my attention was the bell shape at the bottom. Knowing that the columns are from the old stage at the Miller Outdoor theatre, I looked in some history and found that the theatre produced a free musical called "Bells are Ringing" and this free musical has been going on for years. The Rhino column took me awhile to figure out, "why a rhino?" As I looked thru Miller Outdoor Theatre photos I came across one from the side at ground level and noticed how it looked like a Rhinoceros horn. Again, as you know, the Rhino head is on top of a column from the old theatre. The Camel column was the hardest to figure out. I couldn't understand why that column didn't have a shadow. (Just like the palm tree....ravelin, in Image 6). Once I heard about Miller hill being built from dirt from the park to form the amphitheater I realized why. The camel hump is Miller Hill so there would be no shadow. I also believe the columns in the background represent the columns in the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade.

MrBackstop wrote:: Let's talk about the columns. Here's what I see. The front column appears to represent the shape of the area around the Sam Houston statue and the reflection pool. This seems too simple but the thing that caught my attention was the bell shape at the bottom. Knowing that the columns are from the old stage at the Miller Outdoor theatre, I looked in some history and found that the theatre produced a free musical called "Bells are Ringing" and this free musical has been going on for years. The Rhino column took me awhile to figure out, "why a rhino?" As I looked thru Miller Outdoor Theatre photos I came across one from the side at ground level and noticed how it looked like a Rhinoceros horn. Again, as you know, the Rhino head is on top of a column from the old theatre. The Camel column was the hardest to figure out. I couldn't understand why that column didn't have a shadow. (Just like the palm tree....ravelin, in Image 6). Once I heard about Miller hill being built from dirt from the park to form the amphitheater I realized why. The camel hump is Miller Hill so there would be no shadow. I also believe the columns in the background represent the columns in the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade. This all makes a lot of sense.

Everything I'm seeing leads me to the area around Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade. I'm still working on it but definitely looking for other ideas. Perhaps some of our Houston diggers could tell us about some of the areas around the Colonnade that they searched?

erexere, you're info on Atropos key is brilliant. I kept trying to find Atrpos key in the leaves and one area kept me curious was the two leaves in front of the Rhino column. I don't know if anyone posted this before but after seeing your post from 2012 it hit me that those two leaves represent Atropos. The leaves come together to form the diamond shape in the head. That would represent Atrpos Key being in front of Miller Outdoor Theatre (Rhino).

I wasn't aware of the leaves being a visual composite, though the spikey head of Atropos already looks linens partial fit to the leaf shapes in general. The big one for me is holding a mirror at a 45 degree and seeing how closely you can bring up a 40-50% match of the entire statue. Also, understanding that the Melville book quote draws us to Atropos (one of the Three Weird Ones) is probably one one the better confirmers. Sometimes it's difficult to see the difference between a loose interpretation and partially obscured visual evidence. It's very challenging.

A-Dub wrote:: I know I am swimming upstream and that many do not even consider alternative theories for Houston, but I believe that a reference to V5 may be present in illustration 8. At P2 (bottom left corner), there is a paving stone that is broken in two. That broken stone sits within two rows of 11 paving stones. One broken stone in 2 pieces, 22 total stones in those rows. They are the only rows in the illustration that can definitively be counted due to lack of obstruction. Two Twenty Two? That observation might confirm a suspicion of mine (based on other factors) that I8 might actually be paired to V5. This theory takes into account the multiple images present in the illustration that were previously considered Red Herrings and puts them center stage. Is the 222 straw just too long of one to be grasping at? My theory has the broken stone as “Small, split” and indicates turning as soon as you teach the sidewalk at the Museum of Natural Science.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: digging this up tomorrow! come hang guardian! I have a request in with the Conservancy. I don’t suggest digging there without a permit because the cops are *very* unfriendly to anyone caught with a shovel, and where I mentioned is at the intersection of two busy roads. The actual site is even more problematic after the redesign because it’s covered in concrete.

Guardian it is my understanding that Herman park has stated that anything found in the park is the property of Herman park conservatory Did you request to keep anything you find?

More thoughts on this Image and why I like the Colonnade. Through the wood No lion fears The word wood instead of woods always caught my attention and then erecexere confirmed my thought about Atropos Key. That statue was donated by Patricia Woodward. And just for fun instead of thinking of a real lion or the lion water fountains, Charles Hermann, when he died, had a horse named Leo. So his horse certainly wouldn't have been fearful of an artistic statue. In the sky the water veers After you've gone through the wood and over the camel hump (Miller Hill) the Mecom Fountain comes into view. And here is what I call the KEY that gets me to the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade: Small of scale Step across This is referring to the Museum of Natural Science. You couldn't find a smaller scale of History than a museum. The millions of years that are documented in that building are massive and cover the world in comparison to that small building. Step across to the Colonnade. Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike You should still be able to keep your eyes on the Reflection Pool (perspective) while also being able to see the Pioneer Obelisk in the middle of the four fountains surrounding it. Small, split, Three winged and slight This is the piece of land the Colonnade is on. It is small, split into various shapes by the side walks and has 3 triangular landscape beds (wings). What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight This is in reference to the star above the globe in Image 8. I see the top opening of the Colonnade as the globe on the front column. The star is also a Cross. And if you look into the background, between the buildings on the other side of the Colonnade you can see the Tower of St. Paul's which has a Cross on top. Falls gently In December night Knowing that the Colonnade is constructed from the original columns of Miller Outdoor Theatre leads me to the conclusion that this refers to the closing of the season at the theatre. The "curtain falls" on the season. I know that currently the season runs from March-October but I believe at one time in the original theater the curtain fell in December. Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! A whistle sounds I believe the treasure ground could be inside the landscape wing closest to the damaged or roughed up column in the Colonnade next to it, or perhaps on the outside of that part of the sidewalk area next to the what're the Colonnade base and circular pavers create a triangular shape in the sidewalk. I wish I had a more exact target but without being there I need help figuring this part out. As for There's a spout! A whistle sounds....I understand that miniature train whistle can be heard from all over the park. But notice the exclamation point after "spout!" This is in reference to the Sam Houston statue where Sam is pointing toward something and Spouting out an order Spouting out information to his troops. This would work with the phrase "Looking back from treasure ground, There's the spout!" That's why I'm in the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade for my solve.

Doghousereiley wrote:: Guardian it is my understanding that Herman park has stated that anything found in the park is the property of Herman park conservatory Did you request to keep anything you find? This info came from a worker who said the Conservancy *and* the state gain ownership. You can’t have both, which is why I don’t trust what he said.

Guardian wrote:: This info came from a worker who said the Conservancy *and* the state gain ownership. You can’t have both, which is why I don’t trust what he said. Did this same worker say, "Give me anything you dig up and I will personally deliver it."?

MrBackstop wrote:: More thoughts on this Image and why I like the Colonnade. Through the wood No lion fears The word wood instead of woods always caught my attention and then erecexere confirmed my thought about Atropos Key. That statue was donated by Patricia Woodward. And just for fun instead of thinking of a real lion or the lion water fountains, Charles Hermann, when he died, had a horse named Leo. So his horse certainly wouldn't have been fearful of an artistic statue. In the sky the water veers After you've gone through the wood and over the camel hump (Miller Hill) the Mecom Fountain comes into view. And here is what I call the KEY that gets me to the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade: Small of scale Step across This is referring to the Museum of Natural Science. You couldn't find a smaller scale of History than a museum. The millions of years that are documented in that building are massive and cover the world in comparison to that small building. Step across to the Colonnade. Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike You should still be able to keep your eyes on the Reflection Pool (perspective) while also being able to see the Pioneer Obelisk in the middle of the four fountains surrounding it. Small, split, Three winged and slight This is the piece of land the Colonnade is on. It is small, split into various shapes by the side walks and has 3 triangular landscape beds (wings). What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight This is in reference to the star above the globe in Image 8. I see the top opening of the Colonnade as the globe on the front column. The star is also a Cross. And if you look into the background, between the buildings on the other side of the Colonnade you can see the Tower of St. Paul's which has a Cross on top. Falls gently In December night Knowing that the Colonnade is constructed from the original columns of Miller Outdoor Theatre leads me to the conclusion that this refers to the closing of the season at the theatre. The "curtain falls" on the season. I know that currently the season runs from March-October but I believe at one time in the original theater the curtain fell in December. Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! A whistle sounds I believe the treasure ground could be inside the landscape wing closest to the damaged or roughed up column in the Colonnade next to it, or perhaps on the outside of that part of the sidewalk area next to the what're the Colonnade base and circular pavers create a triangular shape in the sidewalk. I wish I had a more exact target but without being there I need help figuring this part out. As for There's a spout! A whistle sounds....I understand that miniature train whistle can be heard from all over the park. But notice the exclamation point after "spout!" This is in reference to the Sam Houston statue where Sam is pointing toward something and Spouting out an order Spouting out information to his troops. This would work with the phrase "Looking back from treasure ground, There's the spout!" That's why I'm in the Mecom-Rockwell Colonnade for my solve. Bump, here it is again.

Seems well thought out, when are you digging?

I won't be going to Houston any time soon so I've been talking to the Doghouse. He is checking out a couple spots soon. Hopefully somebody can help nail down a smaller target. Unless there is a column that is damaged or has some damage like the one in Image 8 then there are few areas to poke around.

Mr. Backstop, Its.good to see your take on the puzzle. The three most difficult things I've had to contend with are: 1) not being on site or having a home grown familiarity with Houston puts me at a serious disadvantage. Also, site changes over the past 40 years, and not all of them well documented 2) getting too tangled up in details that a person like Preiss, having just traveled there for a brief time, would likely not be aware of the minutia that intensive Googling has brought to my attention 3) getting down to business, knowing how the Fair Folk of each specific origin would interact with each setting. I believe No.3 is the overall winner for most deserving of our attention. The Secret is truly difficult because we don't start at the right place with the right mindset. Thinking like a Peri, sitting on a pier block, watching the rain bounce off the high pitched roof, reading a bit of Pierre, and looking back through a peri-scope is probably the sort of thing Priess had in mind...

JoshCornell1 wrote:: that is brtal...there is no logic to it...small of scale step across the museum? wtf? no. just no. how you think that is better than my solve is insane...dog...just go probe around my spot. Josh, its totally logical just as your solve may be totally logical. So do you just think my thought on the museum is too deep of a thought or that BP just wasn't that clever? And you gotta admit, nobody has mentioned that the spout! could be and probably is Sam Houston's monument.

I don't think Sam is a spout. A spout is a mouth, like the pour spout of a tea pot, allowing passage through. "Through the wood" pairs nicely if you're talking about seeing a point through the Woodward's Atropos' 4-equal side length mouth.

erexere wrote:: I don't think Sam is a spout. A spout is a mouth, like the pour spout of a tea pot, allowing passage through. "Through the wood" pairs nicely if you're talking about seeing a point through the Woodward's Atropos' 4-equal side length mouth. I agree, a spout would be a from a whale, a dolphin, a whistle (usually steam), a stack on a locomotive, a fountain, a twister, a drain connected to a gutter...

From Dictionary.com Verb spout - (informal) to utter (a stream of words) on a subject, often at length Have you guys never heard anyone ask: "What's he spouting off about?" or anyone say "She started spouting out orders to everybody" (my old boss used to do this by the way). Or maybe I'm just showing my age. I use the term spout a lot.

Let me throw a few more observtions on this one. The sand dunes in the back are two things, the tan color represents the burned-out look of the park when BP was there. The grassy areas were not well maintained and looked especially bad in the Houston Gardens. Those 3 blueish-colored dunes in the back (2 small ones and 1 tall one in the middle) are the Mecom Fountain. Just to the right of that in the image is a shorter column on a slab of concrete with a blue shape next to that. The column is the Pioneer Memorial Obelisk and the blue shape is the cascading water of the Reflecting Pool. You notice the number "2" in the tree leaves? That is to give credit to Sam Houston for being the Governor of 2 different states. The train tracks on the brick indicate the treasure is outside of the train tracks in the park. The curve on the stone at the bottom indicates the jewel is south of Fannin Street. The bottom of the Rhino column has 2 rings indicating they are the second set of columns after Miller Outdoor Theatre was built. The bottom of the Globe column has 1 ring indicating they are the original columns from the Theatre. The tan colored dune on the far right has been mentioned to look like one of Lion Water fountains in the park. When I turn it sideways it looks more like a horse to me and I believe it is there to represent Sam Houston's horse on the monument. Of course it could be Hermann's horse Leo as well. The larger odd shaped stone on the ground at the base of the Camel Column ( Miller Hill ) has been mentioned by someone long ago ( I believe Whiterabbit) to look like the anchor stones for the Miller Outdoor Theatre. The smaller odd shaped stone is the trapezoidal base that the Atropos Key is mounted on. That's all got for now, got to get back to work. Saturdays are rockin' at Backstop Sports.

MrBackstop wrote:: Let me throw a few more observtions on this one. The sand dunes in the back are two things, the tan color represents the burned-out look of the park when BP was there. The grassy areas were not well maintained and looked especially bad in the Houston Gardens. Those 3 blueish-colored dunes in the back (2 small ones and 1 tall one in the middle) are the Mecom Fountain. Just to the right of that in the image is a shorter column on a slab of concrete with a blue shape next to that. The column is the Pioneer Memorial Obelisk and the blue shape is the cascading water of the Reflecting Pool. You notice the number "2" in the tree leaves? That is to give credit to Sam Houston for being the Governor of 2 different states. The train tracks on the brick indicate the treasure is outside of the train tracks in the park. The curve on the stone at the bottom indicates the jewel is south of Fannin Street. The bottom of the Rhino column has 2 rings indicating they are the second set of columns after Miller Outdoor Theatre was built. The bottom of the Globe column has 1 ring indicating they are the original columns from the Theatre. The tan colored dune on the far right has been mentioned to look like one of Lion Water fountains in the park. When I turn it sideways it looks more like a horse to me and I believe it is there to represent Sam Houston's horse on the monument. Of course it could be Hermann's horse Leo as well. The larger odd shaped stone on the ground at the base of the Camel Column ( Miller Hill ) has been mentioned by someone long ago ( I believe Whiterabbit) to look like the anchor stones for the Miller Outdoor Theatre. The smaller odd shaped stone is the trapezoidal base that the Atropos Key is mounted on. That's all got for now, got to get back to work. Saturdays are rockin' at Backstop Sports. Backstop, this is interesting stuff. What are you backing this info up with?

Just my study of the puzzles and how I interpret meanings in conjunction with the Verses. I know BP was a master puzzle maker by just studying this stuff over the last month. I am completely immersed in the challenge of trying to interpret the words with the artwork and all the hidden messages.

MrBackstop wrote:: Just my study of the puzzles and how I interpret meanings in conjunction with the Verses. I know BP was a master puzzle maker by just studying this stuff over the last month. I am completely immersed in the challenge of trying to interpret the words with the artwork and all the hidden messages. On the base of the column in the foreground near the jewel are some numbers. I believe them to be 5380 5 or possibly 5380.5. There is also possibly a G. What are your thoughts on that?

That gave me the impression of the old stage with performers in a play or something. I do not see any numbers but instead graphic images of a couple people on stage. Perhaps performing that free musicals"Bells of the Night". I never really looked at it more closely than that.

I feel it's best to identify the curved line at the base of the painting as an indication of the stone being stitched together. I don't believe it in any way represents a train track, even though it's customary to draw train tracks on a map in such a way. The question that needs to be pursued is why is the stone being stitched together? Stone is neither fabric, nor is it a living thing.

MrBackstop wrote:: That gave me the impression of the old stage with performers in a play or something. I do not see any numbers but instead graphic images of a couple people on stage. Perhaps performing that free musicals"Bells of the Night". I never really looked at it more closely than that. Zoom in on that base of the column. Anyone know what the original length of the mini train track was?

This image clearly shows damage to a couple posts, the one directly at us and the one two over to the right. I'm curious if anyone has noticed damage similar to the column in the Image? It could narrow down the dig spot over in the landscaping.

erexere wrote:: I feel it's best to identify the curved line at the base of the painting as an indication of the stone being stitched together. I don't believe it in any way represents a train track, even though it's customary to draw train tracks on a map in such a way. The question that needs to be pursued is why is the stone being stitched together? Stone is neither fabric, nor is it a living thing. That's an interesting idea. Perhaps we can come up with some thoughts on stitches instead of tracks. Hmmmm....

What's going on here? Why is the mouth of Mr. Hump the camel directly on vertical with the jewel?

someone asked to see the rhino column photo Wilhouse sent me this.

Thank you Falcon I have seen posts say this was near the Miller Outdoor Theater I assume it was across the lake by entrance of zoo

Doghousereiley wrote:: Thank you Falcon I have seen posts say this was near the Miller Outdoor Theater I assume it was across the lake by entrance of zoo I honestly know nothing about houston other than I am pretty sure wilhouse solved it. I think (but don't know this was the Z in Zoo so there would have been two other coloumns but I do not know what was on them when they were installed or removed.

erexere wrote:: What's going on here? Why is the mouth of Mr. Hump the camel directly on vertical with the jewel? Anyone have an idea for why jewel and camel are in vertical alignment? Also, what about the partial match to Atropos?

I think the lines made by the brick layout need to be followed to the point hinted at by the partial identifier for Atropos which justifies in a strong way that we draw a line off the 4-equal sided length diamond in its face. It seems this point also extends directly to intersect with the jewel-vertical axis on the camels mouth.

So, I've been looking at Houston, since well I'm in Texas. Not sure that the casque is still there, but figured I'd share something. The Djinn's head is Hermann Park and the right side of the funnel is Brays Bayou. I also believe that the left side of the funnel is Buffalo Bayou to the west. The two bayous are not connected on the map, but it sets some boundaries in the Houston metro area. Basically BP is "funneling" you into Hermann Park. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc6xjn8bk0i90 ... n.jpg?dl=0 You have to go to maps and look at Buffalo Bayou, it has the same shape as the left side of the spout. Notice that there are trees around Buffalo Bayou and it looks less "defined" than Brays Bayou. Also, the rhino head is a map overlay of the park itself. https://www.dropbox.com/s/tf3mb199gol2v ... o.png?dl=0

gManTexas wrote:: So, I've been looking at Houston, since well I'm in Texas. Not sure that the casque is still there, but figured I'd share something. The Djinn's head is Hermann Park and the right side of the funnel is Brays Bayou. I also believe that the left side of the funnel is Buffalo Bayou to the west. The two bayous are not connected on the map, but it sets some boundaries in the Houston metro area. Basically BP is "funneling" you into Hermann Park. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc6xjn8bk0i90 ... n.jpg?dl=0 You have to go to maps and look at Buffalo Bayou, it has the same shape as the left side of the spout. Notice that there are trees around Buffalo Bayou and it looks less "defined" than Brays Bayou. Also, the rhino head is a map overlay of the park itself. https://www.dropbox.com/s/tf3mb199gol2v ... o.png?dl=0 Hey gMan, that's really cool! Aren't you also the one who pointed out the seagull's head in Prospect Park, Brooklyn for Image 12? And doesn't the centaur's helmet overlay with the Cleveland gardens somehow from Image 4? I hope you're onto something here methodology wise.

atdreamer2112 wrote:: Hey gMan, that's really cool! Aren't you also the one who pointed out the seagull's head in Prospect Park, Brooklyn for Image 12? And doesn't the centaur's helmet overlay with the Cleveland gardens somehow from Image 4? I hope you're onto something here methodology wise. Thanks and yes. I haven't really look at Cleveland at all, but that's the general concept.

I think this looks pretty good. Like the columns in Cleveland good.

erexere wrote:: I think this looks pretty good. Like the columns in Cleveland good. Could be.

Unknown: Like the columns in Cleveland good. No.

Goldengate wrote:: I just listened to the podcast and I have to say... Willhouse, you are an inspiration. Thank you for taking the time to share your remarkable experience with the Houston puzzle. The account of your communication with BP was entertaining... but also so heartbreaking, it was clear the two of you had connected on a range of other areas and shared a truly friendly relationship. I really felt for your loss. Last, I loved hearing that you brought both your father and son into the search... just so cool that you got to have three generations involved. I can't imagine a better parent / child bonding experience than to go on a treasure hunt. If there's a Secret "Hall of Fame", you deserve to be in it! Agree!

maltedfalcon wrote:: Agree! Thanks for sharing and the recommendation. I also enjoyed listening to the podcast. Time to give this one a go, I guess.

Elaborating on the pic shared on fb today.

erexere wrote:: I totally understand the CLEAR point of the sentence. The problem I have is that there's room for analysis that this might be a clever and logical riddle. If Atropos is the target reference for "waste of time", then the statement "It isn't a waste of time to dig there" should be taken to mean "It isn't Atropos there". The core of the argument I'm making is whether we can agree that Atropos and "waste of time" are relational in some context that is worthy of this puzzle. Atropos is one of three mythological sisters controlling the threads of life. She holds the sheers that cut the thread or "end of the line". I see "waste of time" to mean "the decay/diminishing/end of someone's time". We could intellectualize waste in other ways for other contexts, or argue that time is a never ending continuum, but that would be ignorant of a possibility that Preiss chose his words wisely or with specific purpose in mind.

erexere wrote:: If Atropos is the target reference for "waste of time", then the statement "It isn't a waste of time to dig there" should be taken to mean "It isn't Atropos there". The core of the argument I'm making is whether we can agree that Atropos and "waste of time" are relational in some context that is worthy of this puzzle. Sorry, are you asking if Atropos is a waste of time? Yes.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Sorry, are you asking if Atropos is a waste of time? Yes. Obviously I'm not asking that. And no, you don't know that for sure. Are you saying "sorry" because you're offering your ignorance freely and failing to explain anything in a logical manner?

I'm wondering if those small curved lines near the Djinn are the legs of Atropos in this symmetrical view approach.

Hello, Houston! I've been reading the image 8 thread and the verse 1 thread, doing my Q4T due diligence. In the verse thread, I noticed something. It's probably nothing, but I thought I'd share it anyway in case it turns out to be a lead. Wilhouse posted this pic of the CZ aqua tunnel: A beautiful sight, I can see why Preiss chose it with the carefully selected term "water veers." Plus it's symmetrical, a rare sight in the world of modern art and... Wait a minute, it's not quite symmetrical: That placard on the left doesn't match the three on the right. Now, normally, I would've just dismissed this and forgot all about it. But we know from picture 9 and others that Preiss seemed to love breaking symmetry. So if I noticed this symmetry break, it's plausible he did too. That got me thinking, why exactly is this placard different? Well, not only is it alone on the left side, but the end is raised slightly: So, while the other three placards outline the shape of the triangle, the odd one out makes a trapezoid: Again, this is probably nothing, and placards can be moved regularly. But, as far as I've seen, nobody's matched this shape yet, and it is right there breaking symmetry in the aqua tunnel. Wilhouse, or anyone, is there any indication of what that placard said, and when it was put there?

erexere wrote:: Looks forced. erexere wrote:: I see your excitement about the dragon but It doesn't seem like a pure match. WhiteRabbit wrote:: Sorry, are you asking if Atropos is a waste of time? Yes. erexere wrote:: FYI, this is why people are gun-shy about commenting on your posts, even though you are a pretty cool dude to talk to. Golden rule.

People don't have to be shy to comment on my offerings. Fair enough. I've offered a short opinion without much clarification and not always seemed amicable or agreeable. I did explain to some effect what makes a visual a forced fit. I wasn't being a jerk like Whiterabbit. I happen to think it's better to explore possibilities of good puzzle design rather than assume everything is random scavenger crap. When you find a good visual or multiple visuals, does it matter what steps you took to get there? I think so. Do I need to make a better effort to describe those steps? When I saw that dragon at the senior center, I didn't understand the steps that were taken to get there, so I called it forced. I should've asked for clarification on how you get there and feel absolutely confident that's the right spot. I like you're trapezoid. It's subtle and compliments the line for water veering. I see tilted pier blocks on either side of the theater roof are not a trapezoid shape. I still think they closely resemble that tilted stone in the painting. I also see that water falling on a sloped roof is also a veering or cchange of direction for the water. Also, I'm a sucker for that book quote being on the same page as the talk about the Fates. And the name Wood on the sculpture. And the equal-length diamond center of the face of the sculpture. I really think there's an "end of the line" kind of process here that takes shape at the Atropos.

You're a cool guy to talk to, and once in a while you hit on something, like Charlesgate. You've been advocating the Key for five years, and I was hoping to show you an avenue to gather some constructive input, so that when your next theory hits, it doesn't fall on deaf ears

Thanks. I don't really mind the deaf ears...It's the long ears that bother me.

erexere wrote:: Thanks. I don't really mind the deaf ears...It's the long ears that bother me. Agreed. As JJP said, "elves can be tricksters."

https://vimeo.com/257143430 here is a link to a time lapse video of Herman park this one has a wider view of Herman park I tried to draw in the old train loop

For the record (and I realize none of this means anything until the casque is found), I just want state that I fundamentally disagree with the casque being in the children's zoo and think it's absolutely illogical to be there. I realize a bunch of people believe it's there. I'm not saying they don't have the right to their opinion... All I'm saying is that, after listening to their argument objectively through writing and podcasts, I still disagree with them. I wish them the best of luck, but I still feel they aren't looking in the correct spot and that's why they haven't found it. MM

I mean, everyone wants you to be right. Even Wilhouse. Is your reasoning based on anything new, or is it the usual, "why would he bury it In such a public place that you would have to break in?"

drunknerds wrote:: I mean, everyone wants you to be right. Even Wilhouse. Is your reasoning based on anything new, or is it the usual, "why would he bury it In such a public place that you would have to break in?" As far as "New," who knows. There are a ton of really smart people on these boards and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. After doing these types of hunts for awhile now, I completely realize there are many people who likely have already guessed the right spot for this particular treasure after 37 years. From experience, the real question with these types of hunts is, how many of these really intelligent people who actually knew where it was really went to Houston to probe, then dig to find it for a $1,000 treasure... I'm guessing not many at all. Here's what I know. I have partnered with another guy. We have solved many of these types of arm chair hunts together in past and been rewarded. We both live in Texas. We both think we have found the right spot. I have probed and hit something in the spot we thought it was at. We both will be checking next week. Are we right, knowing how these things go, probably not, but there's also a chance that we will be. Like everyone else when it comes to these hunts, we do our best and try to think of everything, we roll the dice, and hope it's our turn to get lucky. I can tell you it's a really good solve that will make all the children zoo people think there possibly could be another possible solution that has nothing to do with the wiki. MM

I just meant, what's your reasoning for why its silly to consider the zoo

good luck. Whether it's there or not, when you are done please post your solve

Hermann Park = Illustration #8/Verse #1 = Non-Debatable. Children Zoo = Very Debatable

MM, are you over by the colonnade?

MrBackstop wrote:: MM, are you over by the colonnade? As far as where I'm looking, I can't give that away just yet until I've fully explored the area. On another note, for those like me that believe it is in Hermann Park and want to figure out what the park might have looked like in 1981, I thought I would recommend the following: Houston's Hermann Park: A Century of Community (Sara and John Lindsey Series in the Arts and Humanities) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KDSVXSC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 It does a pretty good job detailing the evolution of the park. MM

its to the right of the obelisk, in the woods somewhere around or under the tracks. (when facing obelisk)...this i am certain. however, youll need some metal detection equipment or a gpr to be successful as shit has been moved.

anus905 wrote:: its to the right of the obelisk, in the woods somewhere around or under the tracks. (when facing obelisk)...this i am certain. however, youll need some metal detection equipment or a gpr to be successful as shit has been moved. Hey Josh! Welcome back!

Minotaur_moreno wrote:: We have solved many of these types of arm chair hunts together in past and been rewarded. By "these types" of hunts, do you just mean armchair-style in general? Might we have heard about any of your past successes? Were any of them well-known hunts? How many have you tried and yet failed to solve? I've partnered with someone who solved a location from the book "A Treasures Trove" but he couldn't travel to the location. I've dug up an emerald from "The Clock Without a Face" and have participated in other treasure hunts, puzzle hunts, escape rooms, etc. (You should see my bookcase!) Those experiences mean almost nothing for solving this one. Every hunt is different. It is a broad genre with narrow hallways.

catherwood wrote:: I've dug up an emerald from "The Clock Without a Face" I noticed your name attached to this solve, before. Much respect.

drunknerds wrote:: I noticed your name attached to this solve, before. Much respect. thanks. I cannot take full credit, as I had the help of two friends from my old Unfiction days who got me to the area, I just sniffed at all the trees. Sometimes determination and brute force will get you to the treasure, but more often it is the combined effort of a group with a range of skills. (sorry to derail the Image thread. I'm happy to take general convo to private inbox or a social thread -- do we have one of those?)

catherwood wrote:: By "these types" of hunts, do you just mean armchair-style in general? Might we have heard about any of your past successes? Were any of them well-known hunts? How many have you tried and yet failed to solve? I've partnered with someone who solved a location from the book "A Treasures Trove" but he couldn't travel to the location. Who would that be and which token was it? My wife and I....with the help of oh so many others working on that hunt found ourselves sharing the find of the Bee Token with another hunter. Sadly, that other hunter took all of the credit as well as the token and the bee treasure for himself. C'est la vie ps...congrats on the Clock find! That's fantastic.

Can somebody who is knowledgeable in Hermann Park History tell me how tall was the original fountain in the lake, Not the current one. but the original. Thanks

Love, love, love the new Shh - The Secret Podcast Episode 4.5 ( hxxp://thereisnothingleft.com/podcast/shhh-the-secret-podcast-episode-4-5/ !!! For whatever reason, I could only listen to 38 minutes of the 55 for some reason, though. Anyways, I totally respect how intelligent all the 'old timers' are, how much work you have all put into this, and appreciate how hard you all are trying to keep moving things forward by doing these podcast, so please keep it up! I personally feel they are extremely valuable to everyone trying to solve these both new and old. Let me just say, feeling I'm a pretty objective Expedition Unknown The Secret Newbie chap here, you Old Timers definitely quickly convinced me image #8 wasn't Reunion Tower and Little Eygpt in Dallas, TX like I originally thought it was, but that it was Hermann Park in Houston, TX. That argument was extremely convincing at least to me personally. That said, as much as you Old Timers want to keep demanding to the rest of us he buried it at the Children Zoo and all signs point to it, with Byron taking service roads late at night in the dark and jumping over fences like people breaking out of jail, I will always see this as you all just incorrectly using confirmation bias solves that fit your original solution because you won't view it any other way. Nothing personal, just my opinion. Maybe you all are right and I'm wrong. I just respectfully whole-heartedly disagree with your particular solution. Hopefully, one of us will be able to prove the other incorrect soon! If not, let the healthy debate continue, I guess! Best of luck to everyone!!! MM

maltedfalcon wrote:: Can somebody who is knowledgeable in Hermann Park History tell me how tall was the original fountain in the lake, Not the current one. but the original. Thanks Here is a screen shot from a youtube video taken in 1985 or 89 AM[/url] I would say the fountain would push water to about 20 feet high The trees in the back ground are about 25 feet tall

MM, it's nots in the Children's zoo, I have it in the Colonnade section of the park. I have an area I like but not an actual dig spot to probe.

Minotaur_moreno wrote:: Love, love, love the new Shh - The Secret Podcast Episode 4.5 ( hxxp://thereisnothingleft.com/podcast/shhh-the-secret-podcast-episode-4-5/ !!! For whatever reason, I could only listen to 38 minutes of the 55 for some reason, That said, as much as you Old Timers want to keep demanding to the rest of us he buried it at the Children Zoo and all signs point to it, with Byron taking service roads late at night in the dark and jumping over fences like people breaking out of jail, I will always see this as you all just incorrectly using confirmation bias solves that fit your original solution because you won't view it any other way. Nothing personal, just my opinion. Maybe you all are right and I'm wrong. I just respectfully whole-heartedly disagree with your particular solution. Hopefully, one of us will be able to prove the other incorrect soon! If not, let the healthy debate continue, I guess! Best of luck to everyone!!! MM Welcome! I look forward to hearing your insights on the puzzles. That said, it helps no one to state false information to suit your own agenda. No one has ever said Preiss jumped fences, all sources say the back gate was usually unlocked. It is not weird that Preiss would bury a cask in the dark, why wouldn’t he for privacy and secrecy. Also what is wrong with taking a back road that gets you closer to your destination. Keep in mind I don’t have an opinion on whether it’s in the zoo or not. It’s just that these boards are difficult enough to navigate with people seeing connections that aren’t there, if there’s also an injection if false information the puzzles will become unsolvable here.

There has been an influx of unusable and unnecessary information That is the challenge of this forum To decide for yourself what is true, usable, pertinent and applicable. Why didn't Wilhouse find the casque in the Children's Zoo? According to the podcast he dug in almost every spot you could dig. The only spot was covered by concrete. At what point can you rule out the CZ? It was throughly searched and dug. If it was there Wilhouse would have found it I feel it is highly unlikely Priess dug in the Zoos packed red crush granite which gets like concrete after years of being packed down Conclusion. It is not in the children's zoo

Unknown: Conclusion. It is not in the children's zoo Not true. The only conclusion we can safely draw from Wilhouse's experiences (or anyone else who digs for that matter) is that it was not in the places he dug, when he dug there. Until we find it someplace else, everything else is speculation. Including what Preiss meant when he told him "it would not be a waste of time...". That's the puzzle's main flaw. There are an almost infinite number of ways to be wrong, but only one way to be right. And with Preiss gone, nothing in between.

Doghousereiley wrote:: According to the podcast he dug in almost every spot you could dig. The only spot was covered by concrete. Great point about misinformation. This is some. The CZ was large enough that Wilhouse did not dig in every spot. IIRC (and I hope Wilhouse will come set me straight if I'm wrong), the ground was so tough that holes took a lot longer to dig. The impression I got was that, technically, there was still a large portion of actual dirt left unturned.

I don't know what was the Children's zoo total area or where Wilhouse dug exactly in CZ. I have seen some old maps of CZ Not misinformation. Just relaying what podcast stated. It is hard to know what areas were dug and what if any was left undug

Unknown: there was still a large portion of actual dirt left unturned. This was because he was waiting for physical confirmation, in the form of a photograph, from Preiss. Unfortunately, he never received it and was left to his best guesses. And then he ran out of time.

On google maps It appears that the area that once was the Children's Zoo no longer resembles what it did in 1982 The entire south part seems to have been renovated and is now the African forest. Some parts appear to be under construction I would like to know what area was the Children's Zoo was situated? and where was the back gate the was open? I am assuming Wilhosue dug in the four areas? Hard to see where else to dig in the children's zoo and what was left undug I have to wonder in all the renovations with the park director aware of the existence of a casque that almost every part of what was once the Children's Zoo has possible been turned over and repurposed that no one at any time found anything or ignored what they found how more thoroughly could one place be searched? In Herman park you dig clay about 12 inches down. The casques cannot be covered by more than 18 inches of ground. maybe less

Unknown: how more thoroughly could one place be searched? Excellent question. Wilhouse came up empty, but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying. I do not think this is what Preiss had in mind when he conceived the puzzle, and in hindsight, I'd be willing to bet that he wished he hadn't made them so hard to find, physically.

Doghousereiley wrote:: There has been an influx of unusable and unnecessary information That is the challenge of this forum To decide for yourself what is true, usable, pertinent and applicable. Hold on a second. With all due respect to the old guard here, there has ALWAYS been a large amount of unusable and unnecessary information available throughout this forum. All of the newbies on here are brow beaten religiously to read the entire body of work before posting AND told to use the search function whenever asking a question that may have been asked previously. Doing my due diligence, I read through 130+ pages of posts on one particular thread. There was a good 30+ pages discussing, arguing and fine tuning a location that never existed when Preiss buried the casques. This influx that you speak of has always been here.

Unknown: there has ALWAYS been a large amount of unusable and unnecessary information available throughout this forum True. But than does not negate Dog's point that in recent weeks, the volume has increased significantly, hence his use of the word "influx". It was never easy to separate the wheat from the chaff on the forum, but it is damn near impossible now. Of course, I am not wholly objective (nor do I claim to be), so the statement above may just be this medium timer's bias showing.

I think we can all agree that the Expedition Unknown episode brought a lot new researchers bringing a lot of new and old info to light. Some good some not so good I like "the influx" because there is usually something new on the forum to read

Another question for local Houston Experts, how bare do the trees in Houston get in the winter? Here in Northern CA, you can see quite a ways in the winter but in the summer the trees would block the view very quickly.

Red oaks don't go bare. Maples drop all their leaves. Many trees in Houston keep some leaves all year long. Most of the trees in my neighborhood do.

Has anyone ever tried matching this image to Winston Salem, NC? Because of the RJ Reynolds connection, there's lots of camel images around town as it's been called "Camel City". The smoke stacks downtown also are similar for the columns. I'm not intending to deter any of the Houston research at all - just a fun aside for anyone looking to try other combinations in the meantime.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Excellent question. Wilhouse came up empty, but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying. I do not think this is what Preiss had in mind when he conceived the puzzle, and in hindsight, I'd be willing to bet that he wished he hadn't made them so hard to find, physically. OK, let me clear up some issues. I never dug in the contact areas (4 "lands"). It was hard as rock. No one would have buried anything there. You'd need a jackhammer to do it. I didn't dig in planters. The book says it's not in a planter. I dug around EVERY light pole or globe light that was in the CZ, 3 feet down. I used a 4 foot poker to poke every 6" in any area that I did not dig in that seemed like it was dirt. I basically did it on a grid. Yes, it took hours. Any time I hit something I used a spade to dig it out. I never found 1 piece of plexiglass or ceramic. For information, no, you won't convince me it wasn't in / near the CZ unless you find it. So what? It shouldn't be your mission to convince me of anything. Go find it, and I will be convinced. I have neither the time nor the energy to address everyone who wants to tell me I'm wrong. There shouldn't be any satisfaction in telling me I'm wrong. If you find it I will be amazed and happy and congratulate you for a job well done. I will tell you where I think you've gone astray if I have something to add. No, it can't be in Dallas because the Houston Lat / Long are clearly in the picture. Preiss told me it was in Houston and he was being honest. You want to dig in Dallas, feel free. But I'm not going to encourage anyone to do that. Have fun, and like Preiss said, happy hunting. wilhouse

wilhouse wrote:: I didn't dig in planters. The book says it's not in a planter. This has been bugging me about the Cleaveland dig, I'm surprised it wasn't addressed on podcast interview. Wasn't that a planter in Cleaveland? Or was it later converted to one? About the naysayers, keep doing your thing Wilhouse. With all the evidence, seems like 95% chance it was in the CZ. Keep up the good work.

I asked the SAME question about Cleveland and the response I get is that it wasn't a real planter, just a dirt filled area. Frankly, it always looked like a planter to me. So to clarify, I did dig in a couple actual box planters just to prove to myself it wasn't there. I dug in dirt areas even if they had been used as planters, meaning, had plants in them, well, just because. wilhouse

Unknown: I used a 4 foot poker to poke every 6" in any area that I did not dig in that seemed like it was dirt. Like I said Mark, it wasn't for lack of trying. It was, and I say this with all due respect, because it wasn't there. Which, for anyone else who believes as I do, and is still trying to solve the Houston puzzle, should be positive news. Welcome back.

danielrisk wrote:: This has been bugging me about the Cleaveland dig, I'm surprised it wasn't addressed on podcast interview. Wasn't that a planter in Cleaveland? Or was it later converted to one? About the naysayers, keep doing your thing Wilhouse. With all the evidence, seems like 95% chance it was in the CZ. Keep up the good work. We asked that question, and talked a bit about what everyone thought the difference between a 'flower bed' and a 'planter' could be, but none of us could come up with a suitable answer besides "I dunno" , so that section was cut. One person thought that flowerbeds were on ground level, and planters were raised. One person thought flower beds were anything that had flowers in them... planters had shrubs One thought that Byron didn't bury the Cleveland casque, JJP did, and was unaware of the flower bed rule. I'd like to say the flower bed rule is still in effect, but no one knows what is and isn't considered a flower bed ,or what may be a planter now but was a flower bed in the 80's... so use your own discretion.

Unknown: and talked a bit about what everyone thought the difference between a 'flower bed' and a 'planter' could be, Who cares? The book only states that "every treasure is buried "underground" and that "public or private flower beds" are out of bounds. It doesn't mention "planters" at all. That information comes from an ex parte communication, and regardless of the source, should not be given the same weight as something that is written in the book. If your solve leads you to a planter (as it might have in Cleveland), and you can be sure that the planter is in the same place and in the same relative condition as it would have been in 1981/82 when Preiss buried the casque (as it was in Cleveland), then it would be silly not to explore it.

BINGO wrote:: Doing my due diligence, I read through 130+ pages of posts on one particular thread. There was a good 30+ pages discussing, arguing and fine tuning a location that never existed when Preiss buried the casques. A lot of people forget that Rhode Island wasn't discovered until 1984

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Like I said Mark, it wasn't for lack of trying. It was, and I say this with all due respect, because it wasn't there. Which, for anyone else who believes as I do, and is still trying to solve the Houston puzzle, should be positive news. Welcome back. Ah, you're too positive, IMHO. The CZ area was reconstructed many times. They were also digging out and moving pipe and plants. It's very possible it WAS there but got removed in the various construction activities over the 30 years. However, it's important for everyone to follow their beliefs and I encourage it. btw, I never left. wilhouse

Unknown: Ah, you're too positive, IMHO. You know me Mark. So you should know how serious I am about solving this puzzle. So, if I'm "too positive" as you say, you should probably ask yourself why.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: You know me Mark. So you should know how serious I am about solving this puzzle. So, if I'm "too positive" as you say, you should probably ask yourself why. LOL! Sorry, no real interest. wilhouse

Unknown: Sorry, no real interest. Fair enough. But IMO, you are missing out on a really, really good puzzle. Peace.

Unfortunately, I slowly but surely find myself now starting to doubt my original spot that I've hit something and am converting to the 'Old Timer' CZ view. As you can see below along w/ some other items to ponder, the rhino column is irrefutably the bottom portion of the column in the zoo that used to say, "North America." As some have previously mentioned, why would Preiss put this in Image 8 if you didn't have to be there in the zoo at some point along the way? Let me know what you think/agree/disagree w/. MM

Minotaur_moreno wrote:: Unfortunately, I slowly but surely find myself now starting to doubt my original spot that I've hit something and am converting to the 'Old Timer' CZ view. As you can see below along w/ some other items to ponder, the rhino column is irrefutably the bottom portion of the column in the zoo that used to say, "North America." As some have previously mentioned, why would Preiss put this in Image 8 if you didn't have to be there in the zoo at some point along the way? Let me know what you think/agree/disagree w/. MM The genie's head is a map overlay of Hermann Park and the right side of the cyclone is Brays Bayou. The left side is Buffalo Bayou.

gManTexas wrote:: The genie's head is a map overlay of Hermann Park and the right side of the cyclone is Brays Bayou. The left side is Buffalo Bayou. Yeah, Buffalo Bayou is what I should have labeled it. I don't know that I agree with Brays Bayou, though. I can't get that to matchup. I also don't yet agree about the genie's head as the map overlay or that Brownie the elf has any significance. Not saying I can't be convinced with more evidence, though. MM

Minotaur_moreno wrote:: Yeah, Buffalo Bayou is what I should have labeled it. I don't know that I agree with Brays Bayou, though. I can't get that to matchup. I also don't yet agree about the genie's head as the map overlay or that Brownie the elf has any significance. Not saying I can't be convinced with more evidence, though. MM See my previous post. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=738&start=915#p137853

gManTexas wrote:: See my previous post. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=738&start=915#p137853 I can get the top portion to match-up, but not bottom for Brays, can't get the djinn, though. Real Question: If that pole was in the North American section and not the Children Zoo, with everything we know about the two that were solved, wouldn't that mean that the casque was in a 20 ft. radius or so of that pole in the North American section and not the Children's Zoo? Or are all four sections considered part of the Children's Zoo in the map below? MM

Minotaur_moreno wrote:: I can get the top portion to match-up, but not bottom for Brays, can't get the djinn, though. Real Question: If that pole was in the North America section and not the Children Zoo, with everything we know about the two that were solved, wouldn't that mean that the casque was in a 20 ft. radius or so of that pole in the North American section and not the Children's Zoo? MM The outline doesn't really matter. People already figured out Hermann Park.

The north america contact area was part of the CZ. Along with Asia Africa and South America. Also the reflection pool didn't look like that in 1982. It was more of a pond without a real concrete border.

wilhouse wrote:: The north america contact area was part of the CZ. Along with Asia Africa and South America. Also the reflection pool didn't look like that in 1982. It was more of a pond without a real concrete border. Good to know. As far as the reflection pool, I realize it was 50 to 75 ft more north originally without concrete, i still think it was meant to be the clue to get us to Hermann Park. How else do we get there otherwise using just the illustration? Now that I'm fully understanding things, if the carved post takes u to North America/Asia, there should have been 4 post oak trees (or posts) in or behind North America/Asia that lined up just like the posts in the Illustration 8 background somewhere when you enter the fence (one inside the fence, the other three likely outside the fence like the illustration). From there, the casque would have been somewhere in a 20 ft. radius. Given that the Cleveland casque dealt with a centaur and was found in the back of the Greek Cultural Gardens, it sure seems like a djinn from Persia would be found in the back of the Asia section to remain consistent. Strange that you weren't able to find it there.

There were trees that lined up like the image. They were in the area with the dunes a few hundred feet north of the CZ. I posted that image on line. In this case you didn't need the image to start the hunt. The image took you to Houston (the lat /long) and the verse took you to the zoo 982.

@Wilhouse , In your map below, what do the dots all over (besides the path dots) represent? Are they trees?

wilhouse wrote:: There were trees that lined up like the image. They were in the area with the dunes a few hundred feet north of the CZ. I posted that image on line. In this case you didn't need the image to start the hunt. The image took you to Houston (the lat /long) and the verse took you to the zoo 982. Stuuuuuuuupid question: Did you ever try digging in the center of those trees? I would assume so but I can't recall you saying so.

If I used to know what the dots were I forgot. There were no 4 trees that made sense to dig in the middle of.

Oh the trees in the background. No they were gone and the area was changed. Plus it was in the zoo proper so I couldn't dig there.

Thanks, wilhouse! You were great on the podcasts

That's very kind of you to say so. Wilhouse

Not sure what to make of it, but I've stitched together an old YouTube video of what I believe was the old Asian section of the Children's Zoo in 1985... Https://imgur.com/a/3bmvB Definitely can see why there was a desert theme in the painting if it was correct.

desert connection relates to houston being a center of oil production (like middle east).

anus905 wrote:: desert connection relates to houston being a center of oil production (like middle east). Did you know... Oil was first discovered and extracted in rural Pennsylvania -- hardly a desert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_oil_rush

I'm not sure why that is particularly significant lol. I mean, everyone knows texas is oil country. texas oil barons are like Saudi oil barons. oil can spout from the ground like the water spout if drilled and not contained.

anus905 wrote:: I'm not sure why that is particularly significant lol. I mean, everyone knows texas is oil country. texas oil barons are like Saudi oil barons. oil can spout from the ground like the water spout if drilled and not contained. When you solve sudoku, is it like "The 1 here looks like a 7, which rhymes with 11, which has TWO ONES!! Definitely solved, the grid is just inaccessible right now."

drunknerds wrote:: When you solve sudoku, is it like "The 1 here looks like a 7, which rhymes with 11, which has TWO ONES!! Definitely solved, the grid is just inaccessible right now." No... obviously 11 means that the author is referencing 2. There should be a two there but the cops came and took my pen away.

I originally thought the Rhino column was a graphic representation of Miller Outdoor Theater, but that didn't make sense to me anymore concerning the fact that the Persian man's face and cover is the MOT stage. I now see that Rhino column as the George R. Brown education center. When I took a look at it, a Rhino's head popped into mind. https://www.google.com/maps/search/geor ... a=!3m1!1e3 George and Herman Brown are two philanthropists who donated all kinds of money to Houston over the years. The Rhino Column has a blue halo color around it and looks just like the top of this building with the Triangular eye. I believe this is telling us that we start at the George R. Brown Education Center. Fortress north - Downtown Houston Cold as glass - Glassell School of Art Friendship south - Houston Zoo's George R. Brown Education Center I also like this because in the image the Rhino column is behind the Persian man (MOT). Has anyone used the George R. Brown building in their solve?

I don't think anyone has.

what about Charleston? do you have any input on Charleston or Image 2? because that is much more important than image 8 I believe. If we can solve image 2, will unlock a lot of connections and information.

erexere wrote:: I don't think anyone has. I find the style of the column to look like the old wood columns in North American part of the zoo that someone posted. And the GRB Education Center is at the front of the zoo which would seem like a good place to start our walk.

Spiritr wrote:: what about Charleston? do you have any input on Charleston or Image 2? because that is much more important than image 8 I believe. If we can solve image 2, will unlock a lot of connections and information. I don't have anything to add to Charleston yet. Continuing to look at that but spending more time in Houston and SF at the moment. My thoughts on Houston are coming together.

Mr B, I loved that column match found by wilhouse. I don't believe we're dealing with a breadcrumb type puzzle in image 8. Everything, and I mean everything may be attributed to a single site in Hermann Park. It just takes a little understanding of how Preiss is using the verse. If you're literal minded, you'll think "go to the 982 train, look for next clue", but if you're willing to step back and ask "hey, why does Preiss ask us to take our task to the 982," you might realize the nugget or essence of the line is to identify something -it's a train. I believe the task is the verb form of train, meaning we have to isolate a perspective where we find focus or aim. I believe that's achieved by the Atropos Key sculpture.

I see that verse as emphasizing this way: Friendship south Take our task - Starting point Then its basically saying go passed 982 - waymarker along the walk Through the wood - Atropos Key donated by Patricia Woodward No lion fears In the sky the water veers - Mecom Fountain The thing that bothers me about wood is that it is not Capitalized for a Name so it could possibly just be referring the woods but then again, when talking about the woods....nobody says wood. But it could be chalked up to creative license.

Yeah, I don't agree with walk around. Mecom can be seen to work but I see the water veers line as a driving focus on the roof feature if the MOT where water in the form of rain will be redirected from its decent. That focus on the roof helps makes my case for picturing the apex through the 4 equal sided mouth of Atropos.

As many already know, my "spout" is the Sam Houston statue. With that in mind I realized what I was seeing in the image when I line up the Sam Houston statue directly in front of the Miller Outdoor Theater stage. Starting from the right side of Image 8 1. The Rhino Column - George R. Brown Education Center, not only does the building itself look like the Rhino's eye in the image it also has two rings toward the bottom of the column. I see these as representing George and his brother Herman who are two philanthropists that have donating money all over the Houston area. The GRB is at the entrance to the Houston Zoo (starting point). 2. You would walk passed the 982 engine toward the Miller Outdoor Theater and Atropos Key (The wood No lion fears), and also refer to your 982 book for clues as you continue. The Secret was released in September of 1982 according to an interview with Preiss in October of 1982. I believe this part of the verse has those two meanings. And if you don't agree with me on this, that's cool. I just believe BP was being clever with his release. 3. Persian man's head and cover - Clearly the MOT stage. His folded arms create the letter "M" for Miller. The blocks on the ground between the Camel Column and our Persian man are base of Atropos Key and the cement anchors/supports for the MOT roof. 4. The Smoke Spout represents the Sam Houston Monument. Notice the partially curved lines on both sides of the Smoke Spout in Image 8. These are parts of the curves of the round-a-bout surrounding the Monument. 5. The Camel Column - this is the outdoor seating known as Miller Hill for the Miller Outdoor Theater. It looks like a giant camel hump. 6. The 4 smaller Columns in the background are from the old Houston Garden Center. hxxp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nvA16kN7SzM/U ... G_0476.JPG 7. Globe Column - Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. The Globe on top is the opening of the Colonnade, not an actual round sphere. The Column in Image 8 has dents/pits/damage on it just like a few of the Columns on the Western side of the Colonnade. The columns to build the Colonnade are from the Original MOT. The reason the column has a bell shape is due to the tradition of free musicals put on by the "Theater Under the Stars" called Bells are Ringing . 8. Red Ruby - The casque is buried on the corner of Hermann Loop and San Jacinto. Here's my key, the casque for the red ruby is buried where the dig spot can be seen from the Sam Houston Monument, Miller Hill and Atropos Key. The dig spot is also lined up with MOT stage. The stitched stone at the bottom is letting us know that the casque is buried outside of the miniature train tracks and the curved stone to the bottom right is Fannin Street....telling us the casque is to the South of Fannin. The only area that meets this criteria is the corner of San Jacinto and Hermann Loop Dr to the Southwest section of the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. I believe the red ruby is also a clue that the casque is not buried too far away from one of the Traffic Light posts in that corner of that intersection. https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7225623 ... bfov%3D100 Now I know there is a lot more info in this puzzle but once you look at an overhead view (Google Earth and the old park maps) and line up the Sam Houston statue with the MOT stage, parts of this image and their meanings come into view. At least that's how I see it.

Mr B. I use to have many of the same views, although I did have a moment of insanity trying to fit it to a super theme about Battlestar Galactica....damn that viper helmet. Nowadays I look at how an approach may be inspired. You'll get different results if you try to breadcrumb. Over the years it've become hopeful that each verse line plays an important or supportive roll in the process. I still think there's some geometry connection to where the jewel is placed in the painting. The same might be said for where JJP signs.

Sorry, I meant to say curved stone on the bottom left represents Fannin.

erexere wrote:: Mr B. I use to have many of the same views, although I did have a moment of insanity trying to fit it to a super theme about Battlestar Galactica....damn that viper helmet. Nowadays I look at how an approach may be inspired. You'll get different results if you try to breadcrumb. Over the years it've become hopeful that each verse line plays an important or supportive roll in the process. I still think there's some geometry connection to where the jewel is placed in the painting. The same might be said for where JJP signs. Erexere, what I have noticed with the solves I've put together is that the jewel in some of Images give you a location once you are in the correct area. For example, in this one for Houston, if you are standing at the North entrance of Hermann Park looking South then my solve for Mecom Rockwell Colonnade would be in the bottom left portion of Image 8. Low and behold, the jewel is pictured in the bottom left portion. In Cleveland there is a directional hint as to where you will find the casque. The jewel is in the middle of the Image. There is a circular sphere with a triangle pointing to the jewel in the center and the direction thru that leads you to the right side of the landscaped box where the casque was found. So if you can place the jewel in that spot and you look at the layout of the Greek Cultural Gardens, it shows us that the jewel was buried in the middle right portion of the Image...just like in the actual part of the park. New Orleans has the large clock hand pointing to the jewel while the other little hand is just short of 3 O'clock. So if you see that the large hand is telling you that the casque is buried where the little hand indicates then that would put the casque on the middle right side of Lafayette Square. In the Image, if you see the face of the clock as Lafayette Square then the casque is buried in the middle right center of the clock face but in the upper right portion of the entire image. So, I believe some of the images are telling us where they are geometrically and some are being pointed out or pointed to in order to show a location. Once I find a good spot to look at the clues along with what the verse is telling me, I see the location of the jewels in the Images as an interesting additional clue.

MrBackstop wrote:: So if you can place the jewel in that spot and you look at the layout of the Greek Cultural Gardens, it shows us that the jewel was buried in the middle right portion of the Image...just like in the actual part of the park. MrBackstop wrote:: New Orleans has the large clock hand pointing to the jewel while the other little hand is just short of 3 O'clock. So if you see that the large hand is telling you that the casque is buried where the little hand indicates then that would put the casque on the middle right side of Lafayette Square. In the Image, if you see the face of the clock as Lafayette Square then the casque is buried in the middle right center of the clock face but in the upper right portion of the entire image. Wait......what??? New Orleans? As a references???

Yeah, I get the idea to see a pattern I've revered to as jewelometry. As far as In can tell, Chicago or Cleveland might fit the idea, but I'm not ready to say it's a real pattern. I thinknthe just hopeful and ultimately a bad idea unless we get more facts.

erexere wrote:: jewelometry That is an outstanding word. Absolutely perfect.

Let me add what I see as clues in the trees. Who has noticed the mummy and shoe print in the trees? This ties to the lines in the verse: Small in scale - Houston Museum of Natural Science Step across - Go to the next block (Mecom Rockwell Colonnade) As I've mentioned, the museum is small in scale when considering the millions of years of history in that building. Also in that building, you will find an Egyptian mummy. The shoe print is a great clue to step across the mummy's building. One thing I've seen is people refer to a cow catcher (front of train) in that triangular shape. Cow catchers have vertical bars not horizontal. I believe this is BP's creative way of showing a clue to the Colonnade. The number "2" is reference to Sam Houston being a Governor of 2 different states. What else do you see that may be significant to your solve?

MrBackstop wrote:: The Rhino Column has a blue halo color around it I found out why JJP put these halos around everything. Apparently in 1981 when he got paid to work on this book he spent a lot of evenings sitting around getting caned and listening to Andromeda Girl .

backstop youre off on that, via ayn rand we KNOW that small of scale refers to the train, the footstep takes you to the park N of hermann, where you see the mummy? you do go to the museum to find the camel (miniature figurine) in the egyptian exhibit...its an exact match to the camel (see photo i posted)

Yep, the Rhino Column has the blue halo, it is the starting point and the Globe column has the blue halo indicating the end. The casque is in the vicinity of the Colonnade.

JoshCornell wrote:: backstop youre off on that, via ayn rand we KNOW that small of scale refers to the train, the footstep takes you to the park N of hermann, where you see the mummy? you do go to the museum to find the camel (miniature figurine) in the egyptian exhibit...its an exact match to the camel (see photo i posted) What does a communist have to do with anything Josh? And nope, small of scale has nothing to do with the train. The camel is the camel hump, aka Miller Hill. And I saw your photo of the camel, this could be where the idea came from but none of my solves have anything to do with going into a building.

MrBackstop wrote:: What does a communist have to do with anything Josh? Ayn Rand wrote:: On the ground there were long thin tracks of iron, but it was not iron; it felt smooth and cold as glass.

Communist?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Communist? Ayn Rand wrote:: When, at the age of twelve, at the time of the Russian revolution, I first heard the Communist principle that Man must exist for the sake of the State, I perceived that this was the essential issue, that this principle was evil, and that it could lead to nothing but evil, regardless of any methods, details, decrees, policies, promises and pious platitudes. This was the reason for my opposition to Communism then - and it is my reason now.

Mao on Marx?... Seriously, how are you going to find a dig spot if all you're doing is adding layers of complication or adding more ways to go site seeing? What you need is a good sensible way to identify a dig spot. A spot can be below something, next to something, behind something, equally between two things, measured some distance away from something in a particular direction, between four things making intersecting points, etc. I'll be forever partial to the Verbs book. Notice what the Apex Predator is doing...at the apex of that building...

I stand corrected with my off the cuff remark. She just grew up communist in Russia before denouncing it. But what does Ayn Rand have to do with Houston and this puzzle?

MrBackstop wrote:: I stand corrected with my off the cuff remark. She just grew up communist in Russia before denouncing it. But what does Ayn Rand have to do with Houston and this puzzle? In the past theories were proposed suggesting a line in a cryptic email from Preiss was a reference to Rand's "Anthem".

Ayn Rand wrote:: On the ground there were long thin tracks of iron, but it was not iron; it felt smooth and cold as glass . Unknown: What brought it to pass? What disaster took their reason away from men? What whip lashed them to their knees in shame and submission? The worship of the word "We".... ...But I still wonder how it was possible, in those graceless years of transition, long ago, that men did not see whither they were going, and went on, in blindness and cowardice, to their fate. I wonder, for it is hard for me to conceive how men who knew the word "I," could give it up and not know what they had lost... It began with a quote from Anthem ...and as Merlot says, this went with speculation about Preiss' nonsensical "after 22 Years all I can say is l", and its possible connection with the same novel. All a bit far-fetched perhaps, but who knows.

Unknown: What you need is a good sensible way to identify a dig spot. There is. It's on Pages 220-221 of the book. It worked for the Chicago group, and probably would have worked for Andy and Brian if they had gotten to Cleveland 20 years earlier.

Thanks for that info White Rabbit, I had no idea. Clears it up for me now. Interesting.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: There is. It's on Pages 220-221 of the book. It worked for the Chicago group, and probably would have worked for Andy and Brian if they had gotten to Cleveland 20 years earlier. Unfortunately that is a way to have someone else identify a dig spot.

Unknown: Unfortunately that is a way to have someone else identify a dig spot. What's unfortunate is that having "someone else" identify the dig spot might not only be the most sensible way to find Casque #3, it might be the only way other than trial and error. Especially since that "someone else" is no longer able to fulfill the role that he clearly accepted (and seemingly preferred) when the book was first published.

It's strange that in 2012 I went on about no lion fears being the apex of MOT and that a telescope motif applied to sighting through the Atropos face and then three years later I get the Crazy Word Book which Preiss published in 1982 and it has that subtle visual of assorted zoo creatures, a lion literally at an apex and literally looking through a scope. Preiss did use the words "you would not be wasting your time by digging there" when he responded to Wilhouse asking about digging in the zoo. Notice there's a hippo with a wide skirt on her body almost Atropos shaped and she's looking at her watch. It's amazing. There's another page where a duck rides an ape, "fly an ape". It's a winged ape, like one of Baum's flying monkeys. Reminds me of "ride the man of oz"

Unknown: It's amazing. What will be truly amazing is if any of this information ever leads to recovering a casque. Until then, it's just another interesting coincidence. Unfortunately (there's that word again), the puzzle is full of them.

There can sometimes be a subtle difference between coincidence and planning. The Crazy Book of Words: Verbs book seems simple enough, except Preiss introduces it in the foreword as having more potential. Perhaps it is of a subliminal nature, perhaps it was planned. Preiss makes one thing clear to young readers, that idioms exist to convey another form of meaning. I can repost the foreword if anyone is interested.

Unknown: except Preiss introduces it in the foreword as having more potential. I don't think we need a children's picture book to remind us that with regard to the Verses, words and phrases can have several interpretations. However, if you think that The Crazy Book of Words: Verbs contains more relevant information, or might be the key to solving one or more of the puzzles, then by all mean, pursue it. Seeing if there is any relevance to the Cleveland or Chicago solves might be a good place to start, unless you think the other 10 puzzles stand alone, with somewhat unique solution sets. IOW, keep working the puzzle E. Someday we'll get the breakthrough we all are looking for.

go back, to what inspired anthem...and thus, another layer still... dun dun dunnnnnnn

...and bnw, and 1984, and the piano player and....all the greats...there you will find the starting point of the verse...

note a similarity bw this book and anthem, and another reference in the verse, and youll have your reinforcement and thus know you are correct.

Unknown: and thus know you are correct There is one, and only one way to know that you are correct. Everything else is wishful thinking.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: There is one, and only one way to know that you are correct. Everything else is wishful thinking.

yea, and i know its in the african shaped woods exactly around where i said it is lol...digging it up isnt gonna be easy...

JoshCornell wrote:: yea, and i know its in the african shaped woods exactly around where i said it is lol...digging it up isnt gonna be easy... Well that is definitely an African shaped woods, if you ignore most of the trees. So its really sort of a West Coast of African woods... but I totally agree with you, digging it up there won't be easy!

During a seance, I broke out a ouija board and Byron told me, "You're right".

MrBackstop wrote:: Let me add what I see as clues in the trees. Who has noticed the mummy and shoe print in the trees? Most have seen the “shoe print” and you see the “mummy”, but look at them together and they’re an ape. It’s on the roof of the Taipei Friendship Pavilion. One of my solutions put it next to the Pavilion, and it would have been dug up during the 2014 reconstruction, when it was moved. My other solution includes the Pavilion.

The Pavilion could be an interesting area but it just doesn't fit the visual clues of the Image in my solve. What area around the Pavilion do you like for a good dig spot?

MrBackstop wrote:: The Pavilion could be an interesting area but it just doesn't fit the visual clues of the Image in my solve. What area around the Pavilion do you like for a good dig spot? If it were in the same place, I'd say the western edge. But, since it's been moved, there's no point. First, a picture shows the entire ground was dug up by hand , so somebody would have found it. Second, the spot is now the center of a parking lot.

Guardian wrote:: If it were in the same place, I'd say the western edge. But, since it's been moved, there's no point. First, a picture shows the entire ground was dug up by hand , so somebody would have found it. Second, the spot is now the center of a parking lot. I am interested in the photo of area being dug by hand Do you know where I may reference it.

Unknown: dug by hand I've seen pictures of the area during construction. Given what I've been told about the soil in Houston, I'd say that it was very unlikely that it was entirely dug up by hand although I'm sure there was some shovel work involved, especially around the piers.

Doghousereiley wrote:: I am interested in the photo of area being dug by hand Do you know where I may reference it. There's a photo online. It's on my computer at home and I don't have home Internet, but it shows the Pavilion on struts made of planks (IIRC, they're planks). The only way they could have done that safely is to dig by hand and put them there one by one. I'll see if I can find it while I'm online.

Guardian wrote:: There's a photo online. It's on my computer at home and I don't have home Internet, but it shows the Pavilion on struts made of planks (IIRC, they're planks). The only way they could have done that safely is to dig by hand and put them there one by one. I'll see if I can find it while I'm online. I can't find it. I'll take a photo of the pic on my computer tonight and upload it by phone, if this site will let me upload directly.

Unknown: The only way they could have done that safely is to dig by hand and put them there one by one. A quick Google Image search (Friendship Pavillion Houston) shows pretty much everything you need to see with regard to how they moved the structure. Relatively speaking, the Pavillion is a rather small load, but still too big to assume that the excavation was done by hand. If the casque was buried there, most likely it was the victim of a Bobcat, Skid Steer, or some other similar piece of excavating equipment.

Okay, I'm back in the trees. I've seen the letter "L" upside down in the tree on the right, I've got that as Loop....as in Hermann Loop Drive. I also see the bent branch with the number 95 on it as Hermann Park Drive going toward the Sam Houston Statue and onto Hermann Loop Dr toward the Mecom Fountain. Also, I believe the lady's face just above the Mummy is supposed to represent Caroline Street which starts at Hermann Park and runs through the Museum District. Any weekend thoughts on this?

doghouse i think i know how to triangulate the spot in the woods to right of obelisk...sending you a pm.

MrBackstop wrote:: Also, I believe the lady's face just above the Mummy is supposed to represent Caroline Street which starts at Hermann Park and runs through the Museum District. Any weekend thoughts on this? Just to avoid confusing anyone visiting the area, Caroline is a one way street *ending* at the Museum of Natural Science, where it meets Herman Park Drive, formerly known as Golf Course Drive. Turn left to get to the free parking area toward the zoo.

Guardian wrote:: I can't find it. I'll take a photo of the pic on my computer tonight and upload it by phone, if this site will let me upload directly. I tried to crop the photo I took on my iPhone because of this site’s 256K limit, but even that was too big. The photo shows the Pavilion on six struts made from 4x4s stacked like a game of Jenga. Some are even sticking out. There are two rows of steel I-beams on top of those, supporting the structure. The man in the photo is holding a shovel over his shoulders. I took a closer look at it tonight. It was hard to identify and I started thinking he was auditioning to replace the construction worker in the Village People. I just spotted the shovel a few minutes ago. I don’t think they would have used heavy equipment so close to such a fragile structure, especially since the dirt underneath was also cleared out. Plus, I don’t see how they could have safely put the I-beams in place without leaving dirt to set them on. I’m willing to bet they dug out opposite sides by hand for the I-beams, followed by the center, then made them longer one by one until it reached this point. I don’t know what construction methods contractors use, but that seems safest to me. I do know the Jenga-style stacking maximizes stability, and it would be most effective and safest by hand. One huge question is looming in this photo. To the right of the man is what looks like a big stone with something white peeking out from behind it. There may also be an open wooden box behind him. Could this be the casque? Did the man in the picture find it? That’s the question I’m trying to answer and getting zilch for cooperation from The Powers That Be. Granted, the entire dig would have had to have been done in a single day for the casque to still be there, but with enough people, it’s possible.

this gives us our egyptian connection, as houston was established around flood control measures, just like how the egyptians formed a successful society, by mapping and exploiting the periods of flooding in the nile basin.

this brings us to another columned place...the buffalo bayou park cistern...not sure if preiss would have known about it in the 80s as it was decomissioned at the time (now its used for art installations)...but columns here are similar to ones in the nasa themed park n or hermann. its the first underground drinking water reservoir (seemingly in line with montreal puzzle which also hints at an underground drinking reservoir with the backwards L rune, which takes us to McTavish reservoir on the campus of McGill).

MrSeabass wrote:: I take it someone has ran out of Abilify. your loss not mine...

bear creek pioneer park looks similar to the rhino head as well, addicks reservoir is at the southern point, where the bayou enters into terry hershey park...so this would seemingly be where we'd make our way through houston from.

pretty sure the star on the san jacinto monument is located in the painting between the N and S in the tree.

the monument of houston in hermann points towards the monument at san jacinto.

egypt theme would take us to broken obelisk monument at rothko chapel. from here you are led to a number of monuments in houston.

your contributions are so valuable...or should i say invaluable...

the star is the shape of the ironwork at the welcome to houston portal. (this may be newer and just a coincidence, im not sure) the cistern takes you to here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_tunnel_system and the column theme seems to come from the bridge uprights you walk past as you follow the buffalo bayou under the raised highways.

star could also be stained glass roof of harris county courthouse: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Histor ... 95.3596833 or the floor of the hidalgo park quisco.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Histor ... 95.3596833

raised stone on sand half of ground seems to indicate passage to underground, and thus a reference to the downtown tunnel system.

maltedfalcon wrote:: or it represents the light fixtures in the CZ or it represents the Sam Houston monument and the reflecting pool or none of the above. The image has a lot of multiple meanings.

MrBackstop wrote:: Oh okay, I didn't realize it was a separate entity. But it still doesn't change the fact that Theater Under the Stars performed at the original MOT. The original columns from MOT are now the Mecom Rockwell Colonnade. That's the whole point of the globe column. The column has at least 3 meanings: 1) the MOT columns 2) The reflecting pool, etc. 3) The shape of the lamps across much of Houston at the time, still found in HP The multiple meanings in this puzzle are why some people are confused. Different meanings lead to different parks, but everything with different meanings has at least one at MOT. That’s what convinces me it’s in that section of the park.

JoshCornell wrote:: egypt theme would take us to broken obelisk monument at rothko chapel. from here you are led to a number of monuments in houston. Wasn’t around in ‘81. At least, that’s I was told the one time I visited it’s from the ‘90s.

Guardian wrote:: The column has at least 3 meanings: 1) the MOT columns 2) The reflecting pool, etc. 3) The shape of the lamps across much of Houston at the time, still found in HP The multiple meanings in this puzzle are why some people are confused. Different meanings lead to different parks, but everything with different meanings has at least one at MOT. That’s what convinces me it’s in that section of the park. Thanks Guardian, I like those thoughts to tie to the column. The way I line up the visual clues in the image with the lines in the verse....Small of scale....Step across...has me in block with the colonnade. The Pavillion area is certainly an interesting possibility.

Further exploring my thoughts about clues in the text do help confirm locations, as posted under "the vanishing" sub, I feel that the Arabian immigrants went to the Southwest/Navajo region (Persian rug weavers teaching the native peoples to master the art of weaving). There are several other indicators in the text as well, such as "a desert so dry the land is scattered with the bones of cactus," indicating black forrest, a petrified forest in Arizona. As well as others, I don't think I listed in the other forum. In this review, I am still unconvinced of five verses have actually been locked down to an image/location. I get that there is a large effort for Hermann park in Houston, and I can see some of the arguments for but some also seem off, understanding there has been decades of change that could be expected. Also noting that it wasn't actually confirmed by Priess, only that "it wouldn't be a waste of time to dig there." The book said originally if the solve was correct, or mostly correct as the case of the original casque find, Priess confirmed even though they had some of the details wrong. Maybe just to get sluggish book sales on an upturn? Anyhow I refocused on image 8 the Arabian immigration. I could make some arguments that it links to many of the verses if I tried hard enough. One that seemed to start falling into place easily was a pairing with verse 7. I had already done some research about Arabic immigration to the SouthWest and image comparison. This is when I came across the Hi Jolly monument, in Quartzite Arizona, a very close match and look to the camel in the image on top of the pillar. I like this cause he was an immigrant from Arabic/Greek heritage, leading a Camel Corps from Texas to California across the deserts for a US road/railway route. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi_Jolly# ... 080707.JPG Now set my sights on the Arizona area of the Navajo territory. Did several more hours of internet research. Then decided reread early posts, ahh I wished I would have done that first then I would have read that fox and cthree already poked at it being in Arizona early on, Then goatlady posted the Hi Jolly image as well, Why didn't I start there? But anyhow I digress. I am wondering if the verse and clues in the image could possibly lead us across Interstate 10 (I-10) from Phoenix to the casque location. Verse 7: At stone wall's door The air smells sweet (The original proposed name for Phoenix, AZ was Stonewall) hxxp://arizonaoddities.com/2010/01/how- ... -its-name/ (The desert rain causes the air to smell sweet because of the creosote bush, oils from the leaves mix with other elements in the environment- giving off a sweet smell.) hxxp://www.azfamily.com/story/35878976/ ... in-arizona Not far away High posts are three Not sure, a place near Phoenix? Education and Justice For all to see Sounds from the sky Near ace is high current guess is something to do with one of the plane/aviation shows/museums in Arizona. Because it mentions sounds from the sky seems a reference more to do with air shows than gambling/poker. Running north, but first across In jewel's direction The I-10 goes NW across from Phoenix towards California, along the way is the Hi Jolly monument. Is an object Of Twain's attention Maybe a quote of his, talking about the Yuma natives? off I-10 as well as other locations. There is also a Mark Twain themed Spa/resort somewhere in Arizona I think. Giant pole Giant step Don't know many things could be giant poles in Arizona from literally giant totems to the plateaus of the SW that look like stand alone towers. To the place The casque is kept. probably exactly as stated. I could be wrong, not sure that Priess would have taken us on a state-wide hunt but the I-10 seems to be a tourist trek, with things to see along the roadside. Anyone live or been to the area that could shed insight or debunk some thoughts?

Unknown: Further exploring my thoughts about clues in the text do help confirm locations It might help you to know that this is what people were doing before they had an understanding of how the puzzle was supposed to work. Most of the location confirmers are in the Images.

I get that there clues in the picture and they largely confirmed the location. I’m not exactly new to this hunt, this is year thirteen for me on the hunt and I was one of those who have been looking and using text as well as image clues for possible casque sites. Understanding that all that is required is to match one verse with one image to solve. Other than the possible coordinates for Huston, TX nothing in this image is a good fit for the Hermann park theory. The image clues exactly matched the Cleveland and chicago finds. Why would this one be different?

Unknown: Why would this one be different? Because if it was exactly the same, this puzzle would have been solved years ago. Possibly with Preiss' assistance, but solved none the less.

jayheedan1 wrote:: Other than the possible coordinates for Huston, TX nothing in this image is a good fit for the Hermann park theory. The image clues exactly matched the Cleveland and chicago finds. Why would this one be different? you mis-spoke you said "Nothing in this image is a good fit for the Hermann park theory" when what you meant to say is: "Nothing in this image is a good fit for my Hermann park theory" it fits my Hermann Park theory, perfectly. I hope to get out to houston next year. LOL that being said Even Mark thinks my theory is wrong.

maltedfalcon wrote:: you mis-spoke you said "Nothing in this image is a good fit for the Hermann park theory" when what you meant to say is: "Nothing in this image is a good fit for my Hermann park theory" it fits my Hermann Park theory, perfectly. I hope to get out to houston next year. LOL that being said Even Mark thinks my theory is wrong. Certainly, I did not. I don't at all subscribe to the Hermann park theory, it's all yours.

jayheedan1 wrote:: Certainly, I did not. I don't at all subscribe to the Hermann park theory, it's all yours. oh well in that case I was wrong, you did not mis-speak, you are just then incorrect.

jayheedan1 wrote:: I get that there clues in the picture and they largely confirmed the location. I’m not exactly new to this hunt, this is year thirteen for me on the hunt and I was one of those who have been looking and using text as well as image clues for possible casque sites. Understanding that all that is required is to match one verse with one image to solve. Other than the possible coordinates for Huston, TX nothing in this image is a good fit for the Hermann park theory. The image clues exactly matched the Cleveland and chicago finds. Why would this one be different? Image matches: Djinn’s headpiece/MOT Paved area in left side of ground/museum sidewalk Background/golf course Gorilla (which has been hotly debated in the past)/gorilla atop pavilion Shape of pole in foreground/map of reflecting pool area The pole has another image match, which I’m keeping to myself because it locates one of my dig sites.

I want to ask again about the "exclamation point" after spout! Looking back from treasure ground There's the spout! A whistle sounds. Anyone have a conclusion to their solve as to why the spout has an exclamation point? As many of you know my reason is that the spout is Sam Houston spouting out an order as he is pointing. I've not heard any other's reasons for this. I'm curious, whatcha got?

Guardian wrote:: Image matches: Djinn’s headpiece/MOT Paved area in left side of ground/museum sidewalk Background/golf course Gorilla (which has been hotly debated in the past)/gorilla atop pavilion Shape of pole in foreground/map of reflecting pool area The pole has another image match, which I’m keeping to myself because it locates one of my dig sites. Not to argue, because we clearly see things differently. In contrast to the other images which matched exactly to real life statues landmarks and the like. Most of the visual confirmers for Hermann Park theory, from what I have seen the past decade of posts, were based on the "imagery" from the verse. i.e. the 982 train, lion water fountain, etc. Compared to the Leg eater matching exactly, the images in both the Cleveland and Chicago matching, exactly. The image 12 matching the statue of liberty, exactly. The Milwaukee lion's face and City Hall matching, exactly. The map of Charleston on the tribal mask matching, exactly. Not that I cannot accept the potential fact that a casque could be in Houston, TX. I just haven't seen clear, matching - image to real life comparison of anything in the Hermann Park that confirms. The ones you listed are not at all matches to me. To me. Others might see it, I don't I feel we could do better. Good luck to you though on your digs.

MrBackstop wrote:: I want to ask again about the "exclamation point" after spout! I take your point, but there's a time and a place for punctuation marks. You wouldn't question the placement of a comma or a semi-colon. "There's the spout!" is, or can be, an exclamation. I don't think there's anything extraordinary about it.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I take your point, but there's a time and a place for punctuation marks. You wouldn't question the placement of a comma or a semi-colon. "There's the spout!" is, or can be, an exclamation. I don't think there's anything extraordinary about it. Given the cryptic nature of the clues, I’d say the exclamation point is there for a reason. In cryptic clues, an exclamation point is usually used for a cryptic definition. For example,”spout” could be cryptic definition for a fountain (something that spouts water) or the funnel of a train (spouts smoke), etc.

PaulM wrote:: Given the cryptic nature of the clues, I’d say the exclamation point is there for a reason. In cryptic clues, an exclamation point is usually used for a cryptic definition. For example,”spout” could be cryptic definition for a fountain (something that spouts water) or the funnel of a train (spouts smoke), etc. I'd say because it is unexpected.

Unknown: I don't think there's anything extraordinary about it. That's kind of my point. I see it as very important being used to indicate the "spouting of an order" from Sam Houston and not a physical object. As I continue to narrow down my target, I also continue to try to find reasons to get away from it. I thank George for helping me go at the solves in this manner. I'm genuinely curious as to what other reasons members have for "spout!" in their solves.

In Melville's Moby Dick, the excitement that would go with spotting the spout would go with winning Ahab's gold doubloon. I've thought it was a good parallel to finding the hole on top of Atropos.

maltedfalcon wrote:: its cause hes telling you to take the train, in order to discern the location. so when you are travelling through the african shaped woods towards the obelisk, between the spout and auditorium, the spout would come into view through the trees. if you look at old location of track, youd step over the southern bend (represented in the painting) in the african shaped woods, and then use the old location of the obelisk to give you a more general location (X) around which the marking trees would have once been located.

Okay, thanks....couple interesting thoughts on the ! What are your thoughts concerning the red dot on the stones in between the smoke/spout and MOT ? To me this appears to be an actual indication of the casque's location.

I toy with those ideas all the time. Does the jewel placement in the image reveal a kind of real placement between two points that would be characterized in the image? We don't know for sure yet. It's unclear if that approach is supported by evidence in Cleveland's or Chicago's images, so.... Re: Josh's comment on being told to take a train. That's not a bad assessment, but I think the important idea is really to understand that a task is going to be a verb, an action that one must take. The 9 8 2 being identified as a train, fulfills this goal in an interesting way. It may be meant to just "go" to the 982 train, or it might mean as Josh says, "take a train, but I much prefer the fact that the word "train" itself is one of those words which happens to be capable of acting as a noun or a verb, therefore it stands to reason that Preiss wants our "task" to actually involve an action of "training" to take place, which I believe to be aiming, something like finding a point by aligning two points on the ground, because it would actually be helpful to describe some aspect of how to find the casque so as to not allow only guessing on where to dig.

erexere wrote:: Does the jewel placement in the image reveal a kind of real placement between two points that would be characterized in the image? We don't know for sure yet. It's unclear if that approach is supported by evidence in Cleveland's or Chicago's images, so.... That being said, in the large number of years since chicago and now cleveland,and many people trying, no one has been able to show a single plausible theory that indicates the placement of the jewel in the image has anything to do with the actual placement of the casque. But, if you want to say it's still unclear, thats ok.

Unknown: That being said, in the large number of years since chicago and now cleveland,and many people trying, no one has been able to show a single plausible theory that indicates the value of the jewel in the image has anything to do with the actual difficulty of the puzzle . But, if you want to say it's still unclear, thats ok. Fixed it for you.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Fixed it for you. Thank you for fixing that. Here for your notes file... Monday., Oct. 25, 1982. St Louis Post-Dispatch By John J. Archibald, of the Post-Dispatch Staff " The Total Value of the stones is estimated at $10,000, but they are not equal. ' The stones that are worth the most will be the hardest to find. ' Priess said."

maltedfalcon wrote:: By John J. Archibald, of the Post-Dispatch Staff " The Total Value of the stones is estimated at $10,000, but they are not equal. ' The stones that are worth the most will be the hardest to find. ' Priess said."

Unknown: The Total Value of the stones is estimated at $10,000, but they are not equal. So, there is a range of value, from the cheapest to the most expensive. And if we total that value (keeping in mind that the value of precious stones fluctuates over time), in 1982 it would have added up to about $10K. Which makes the average cost of each prize jewel(s) about $833.33. Now I suppose it's possible that the easiest puzzle had a prize valued at $833.28 and the hardest puzzle had a prize valued at $833.39, but it's more likely that the range of values was a little more significant, say $50. Which means (assuming a normal distribution of value) that the easiest puzzle had a prize valued at about $550 and the hardest one had a prize valued at about twice that much, or about $1,100. The jewel that Brian received was worth over $1K, but we can dismiss this because it's possible that he got the wrong one, or that the value had changed significantly in the ensuing 20 years. But the emerald for the Chicago puzzle was appraised at almost $1,500, and that was in 1983. So, are we to assume that Chicago is one of the hardest, if not the hardest puzzle to solve? I know what I think, but as Matt says, if you want to say it's still unclear, that's ok.

erexere wrote:: I toy with those ideas all the time. Does the jewel placement in the image reveal a kind of real placement between two points that would be characterized in the image? We don't know for sure yet. It's unclear if that approach is supported by evidence in Cleveland's or Chicago's images, so.... Re: Josh's comment on being told to take a train. That's not a bad assessment, but I think the important idea is really to understand that a task is going to be a verb, an action that one must take. The 9 8 2 being identified as a train, fulfills this goal in an interesting way. It may be meant to just "go" to the 982 train, or it might mean as Josh says, "take a train, but I much prefer the fact that the word "train" itself is one of those words which happens to be capable of acting as a noun or a verb, therefore it stands to reason that Preiss wants our "task" to actually involve an action of "training" to take place, which I believe to be aiming, something like finding a point by aligning two points on the ground, because it would actually be helpful to describe some aspect of how to find the casque so as to not allow only guessing on where to dig. when i dug, i did use the jewels location to dig around the manhole in the woods there...it was the only idea i had at the time, but i dont think it was a very good one...

erexere wrote:: I toy with those ideas all the time. Does the jewel placement in the image reveal a kind of real placement between two points that would be characterized in the image? We don't know for sure yet. It's unclear if that approach is supported by evidence in Cleveland's or Chicago's images, so.... Re: Josh's comment on being told to take a train. That's not a bad assessment, but I think the important idea is really to understand that a task is going to be a verb, an action that one must take. The 9 8 2 being identified as a train, fulfills this goal in an interesting way. It may be meant to just "go" to the 982 train, or it might mean as Josh says, "take a train, but I much prefer the fact that the word "train" itself is one of those words which happens to be capable of acting as a noun or a verb, therefore it stands to reason that Preiss wants our "task" to actually involve an action of "training" to take place, which I believe to be aiming, something like finding a point by aligning two points on the ground, because it would actually be helpful to describe some aspect of how to find the casque so as to not allow only guessing on where to dig. we know we have to take the train because the ayn rand quote suggests we must go through the train tunnel.

I know there are those who don't believe the jewel's location on the Image is of significance or don't believe that there are hidden maps in the Images. I believe the Jewel's location can be helpful to pointing you in the right location once you have narrowed down your dig spot and I see hidden maps in many (not all yet) JJP's artwork. What I'm trying to ask is about the red dot (M5). It is located in the shadow of the Globe Column and just under the outermost edge of the smoke spout. I haven't been able to find any conversations concerning the meaning of that red highlighted dot. Any thoughts on the dot, not the actual jewel.?

the red dot you speak of seems to be a part of a circle with a black dot in the center, the red dot would be at the top of the circle in this sense.

top looks flattish, like a fishbowl.

unsure whether the red dot itself is of significance, i attribute those little red/pink marks to being artifacts.

theres a gnome or elf to the left of the leftmost pillar.

the small pillar beside has a bee beside it. see it?

astronaut helmet and or one of those side eating flowers from mario lol (next section over)

king (crown) or guy with halo in next

2nd one might be bee and chimp

next section looks to have the mask that is on the auditorium

back to red dot theres a similar one in one of the bubbles on boston painting

pretty sure i have the gnome, dog, gman...was this there in the 80s? hxxp://www.bigkidsmallcity.com/2018/04/ ... l-seasons/

got the bee! takes you to musician bee houston from san antonio and gives you a hint about how to read one of the verse clues.

space 4 seems to contain a t-rex and possibly also an astronaut helmet, with obvious connections.

space 5 has person with distinctive hat, or angel, or possibly an egyptian queen/princess.

space 6 has the mask on the miller outdoor theatre, maybe also half a rams skull.

space 6 (top) has a rabbit, and at least 3 faces.

there may be a rabbit hidden in every puzzle somehow, as an homage to masquerade...this is the second rabbit ive seen.

no fingers or eyes, notable. you use a similar tactic as employed in masquerade to solve this puzzle on a map.

two face on right side look like children. left face is more charictured, almost like the fort sumter pendent with its tongue sticking out.

lower space 6 also seems to contain a face with a large distinctive nose.

space 8 (brown) is a face of what looks like a hooded boy. face is right up against last pillar.

space 3 (top) (brown) has a bear head, looks polar bearish cause of the colour.

bear head takes you to university of houston (also a tip for NYC puzzle).

space 8 (right) (blue) contains either a cow, pig or goat. it might be meant to be a cow and a pig. allen ranch maybe?

is that the fucking chthullu inside the hooded boy (lighter colouring)? could be geiger's alien (xenomorph) or a demon of some sort.

i think it is, and i think its pointing you to that underground cistern with all the pillars in it!!!

so good.

2 pages of post after post after post minutes apart. Do you really need attention that badly?

i think its also the xenomorph. and i think this takes you to "gum arabic".

you mad im busting the shit out of these clues? do you want the puzzle solved or not? i can easily just not share you ungrateful pos.

The only solves you are sharing exist in your mind. You continue to claim you have solved all of these and then come up empty handed on not one, nor two, nor three... how many were there again?

ive said straight up its going to be hard to get houston cause of the markers being gone...but i def got us down to the right location. and ive told everyone.

JoshCornell wrote:: ive said straight up its going to be hard to get houston cause of the markers being gone...but i def got us down to the right location. and ive told everyone. most everybody disagrees with your location and solution.