Thread Summary
This thread dives deep into the symbolism and location clues tied to Image 9, with heavy speculation linking it to either St. Louis or somewhere along the East Coast, such as North Carolina or Maryland. The contributors thoroughly analyze every aspect of the image, from animal features to background textures, to tie it to a casque location.
🔍 Symbolism Breakdown
- The figure in the image has drawn major attention for the "dogleg" on its clothing, which could symbolize a sharp bend in a road or perhaps even reference an animal hybrid.
- The musical note on the flower has sparked discussions on connections to cities like Memphis or the Wright Brothers' Octave.
- The Roman numeral X, opal, and runes are linked to the month of October and potential astrological or mythological themes.
🦌 Animal Identification & Interpretation
- Users debate whether the animal on the figure's clothing is a dog, a gazelle, or a goat. *maltedfalcon* leans toward a **Thompson’s gazelle**, noting distinct facial markings and cloven hooves.
- There's additional discussion on whether the image includes a fox (as in Missouri Fox Trotter) or a kangaroo. These speculations are tied to both visual symbolism and geographic relevance.
📍 Location Theories: St. Louis & Beyond
- *johann*, *fox*, and others argue that Forest Park in St. Louis is a match, citing its **Jewel Box**, checkerboard symbolism (linked to Purina), fountains, and art pieces like the **Apotheosis of St. Louis**.
- Other possibilities include Kill Devil Hill in **North Carolina**, **Baltimore**, and **Annapolis**, based on latitude/longitude numbers (39 and 76) found in the image.
- Various statues, fountains, and architectural features are examined for correlation to the picture’s elements.
🧠 Deep Dives & Wordplay
- Users dissect the hands, finger positions, and shadowy details for hidden numbers or symbols.
- The idea of a semaphore signal, steeple gesture (“here’s the church, here’s the steeple…”), and checkerboard anomalies lead to creative interpretations.
- There’s even speculation about a LEGO police car, sign symbols, and a strange “thing” in the image that no one can quite identify.
🤝 Community Exploration
- Field research is offered by *dan39decoy*, *johann*, and others, including site visits and comparisons with aerial views and historical photos.
- Lively, respectful banter and speculation fill the thread, with lots of encouragement and camaraderie among the posters.
🎯 Final Thoughts
While consensus isn’t reached, St. Louis remains the top theory, particularly centered around Forest Park and its features. This thread showcases the community’s exhaustive analysis and playful curiosity in tackling one of the more enigmatic images in the hunt.
Egbert
On this guy's clothing is a "dogleg," which is a road that has a sharp bend in it.
There also appears to be a musical note hidden in the flower.
He appears to be making some type of letter or sign with his hands. Any ideas?
What is that symbol above the dogleg? I don't have the book right now, and I'm just looking at the pic on the internet.
fox
egbert,
I think the resolution is a little fuzzy on the scanned P. What you refer to as a dogleg appears to be more like a cloven hoof. I am still trying to figure out what that is under the dog's (animal's) nose. A train? An old movie camera? A suitcase? What the heck is it?
The symbol above the animal-leg-? contains a large X for the roman numeral 10. This ties in with the opal and the cosmos for the month of October. On either side of the X there appears to be symbols-letters-numbers? Hard to make out, if read normally, it looks like P 7...or maybe L d read upside down. Hard to say.....
fox
The symbols boardering the "X" may be ancient runes (although the one that looks like "7" would be backwards)
The first symbol in runes is Wunjo which is "the Standard of the Gods, at the head of the procession." (or) the letter W/V. Not much help that I can fathom.
The second symbol may be Laguz which is "Water appeared on the land ... Laguz ... Lake". (or) the letter L. Now we may be getting somewhere with water or lake.
Now, the X which leads us to 10/october could also be 1 of 2 runes. It could be Gebo (letter G) which "represents the goddess Gefn/Frayr who was the mistress of the gods. In this capacity Gebo/X ironically symbolizes the Constellation of Virgo." or it could be Dagaz (letter D) which means"And then there was Light ... Dagaz ... Day."
So, what do we have? G(or)D.W/V.L. & Light/day (or) Gefn/Virgo-head of procession-water/lake.
fox
I always hated to follow my post with another but here are some alternate translations.
DAGAZ = Breakthrough
GEBO = Partnership
WUNJO = Joy
LAGUZ = Flow
Egbert
I believe this image falls under the following theme:
October (The roman numeral "X")
Opal
Marigold? Calendula?
Dutch/Scottish? Theme
"The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes:
A cloud of shining, shifting smoke."
Egbert
Thanks to Dan's high-res pics, I was able to notice something in this picture. Like many of the other pictures, this one also seems to have a geographic outline of something --- it's on the top right side of his hat, and can be seen very clear in the high res pic.
If you look at his hair, on the right side, you will see the number 73. There also appears to be something else --- the letter "C"?
On his cloak appears to be a dog, and then the leg of a horse (a "dogleg" is a sharp bend in a road). His fingers are definitely indicating another clue, but I can't figure out what it is indicating. There is a musical note on the flower.
fox
After posting my nutshell in the other thread....I did a little surfing through Ottawa...possible P9 and found a place called Green Island where the city hall is located... take a look:
hxxp://www.globalairphotos.com/images/o ... 02_146.jpg
If you turn either Green Island or P9 upside down, the hand signal looks similar. The man's fingers are in approximation of the waterways around the island.
Egbert
Unknown:
Thanks to Dan's high-res pics, I was able to notice something in this picture. Like many of the other pictures, this one also seems to have a geographic outline of something --- it's on the top right side of his hat, and can be seen very clear in the high res pic.
If you look at his hair, on the right side, you will see the number 73. There also appears to be something else --- the letter "C"?
Let's use that "73" to figure out the possible city --- using Fox's latitude/longitude idea. Probably somewhere in New England.
Egbert
Unknown:
Thanks to Dan's high-res pics, I was able to notice something in this picture. Like many of the other pictures, this one also seems to have a geographic outline of something --- it's on the top right side of his hat, and can be seen very clear in the high res pic.
If you look at his hair, on the right side, you will see the number 73. There also appears to be something else --- the letter "C"?
Let's use that "73" to figure out the possible city --- using Fox's latitude/longitude idea. Probably somewhere in
New
England.
lacoperon
I see a 39 in the curls on his brow.
Unfortunately, according to the tool i'm using, 39 x 73 is just water. However 39 x 74 is
New
Jersey, 75 is Delaware, and 77 is Maryland or Pennsylvania.
lacoperon
I see a 39 in the curls on his brow.
Unfortunately, according to the tool i'm using, 39 x 73 is just water. However 39 x 74 is New Jersey, 75 is Delaware, and 77 is Maryland or Pennsylvania.
Egbert
I think this is the pic that matches verse 11, which we just figured out was North Carolina. The town right nearby is called Nags Head. The horse's foot and strange head in this pic seems to be a match. There is even "Old Nag's Head Road" in Kill Devil Hill, where the treasure is apparently buried. Let's do some more searching in this picture.
The musical note could refer to their friend "Octave."
fox
getting back to the "musical note"...is that what that is? take a look at Howard Stern's tattoo: hxxp://www.vanishingtattoo.com/tattoo/celeb-stern.htmlooks a lot like our symbol, but what is it?
It also looks like a 76. Now, 76 may (or may not...may be a stretch) come in quite handy in matching this P w/ our Wright Bros P. Take a look at the checkerboard pattern on the front of the the shirt. It looks similar (not exact) to:
hxxp://www.webelements.com/if
my memories serves me, the shirt pattern & the per table (as usually represented) have the same # of columns and rows. I believe the left finger is pointing to a specific element which is also represented by 76. ..... Osmium - atomic #76 - symbol OS (pronounced oz) Still trying to find a pic of Smithson Tenant (the discoverer)...wondering if he is a big nosed, pudgy faced gent represented in the P.
now, could the "dogleg" & "X" represent other elements.....
lacoperon
Look at the image catherwood posted for Verse 11:
hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/garde ... .aspx?id=1
The brickwork near the roof looks exactly like the checkerboard pattern on the shirt!
SoonerFan
I was searching for numbers on this image last night and the 2 that stood out the most was a 77 in his hair on the left side (our left) and the 39 that lacoperon mentioned on his brow. That would lead to Wash DC or possibly Baltimore using the fox theory (can we make that the fox law yet?).
Egbert
Hmmm. I see the strands of hair, but I don't see the numbers that you people are getting. On our right, it definitely looks like the number 73 sticking out. That's on the east coast --- I'll have to dig my chart out to see if it goes through our North Carolina site.
I see a 9 or an upside-down 6 on the left side of his forehead, and I see something which looks like a J next to it. But I don't see any other numbers.
fox
Is this our flower symbol?:
hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/53/5329.html
is quite similar & I'm thinking this is probably what Stern's tattoo (now modified into a dragon) is.
now, how does a goat with a fish tail fit into the Elizabethan Gardens?
shawnvw
Unknown:
On his cloak appears to be a dog, and then the leg of a horse (a "dogleg" is a sharp bend in a road).
I'm no longer particularly worried about what it is: I'm sure we'll see it again in the vicinity of the casque.
shawnvw
Unknown:
I think this is the pic that matches verse 11, which we just figured out was North Carolina. The town right nearby is called Nags Head. The horse's foot and strange head in this pic seems to be a match. There is even "Old Nag's Head Road" in Kill Devil Hill, where the treasure is apparently buried. Let's do some more searching in this picture.
But it's not a horse's head in the picture. A dog's head, maybe.
Egbert
Still trying to fit this picture somewhere. How about St. Louis, Forest Park, in a place called........get this.......The Jewel Box. The outline of the building certainly matches the funny guy's shirt:
hxxp://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/parks/jewelbox/
There's also a place next to Forest Park which is apparently known as "Dogtown." Perhaps Johann knows a bit more about this.
hxxp://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/dogtown/dogtown.html
BTW, Forest Park may have changed since 1982. Check this out:
hxxp://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/dogtown/park/park-ideal.html
dan39decoy
This weekend I made the trek down to Forest Park in St. Louis from Iowa City, IA. Specifically, I was looking to match Image 9 with Verse 2.
"At the place where jewels abound" sounded a lot like a Jewel Box to me.
"Gnomes admire, Fays delight, The namesakes meeting near this sight" sounded like it might be a reference to the World's
Fair
which obviously was held on the grounds and whose Pavillion is near the Jewel Box.
Also, if you look at the roman numeral X and the "runes" on his clothing you get an approximation of the garden area next to the Jewel Box (when looking down from above).
And probably as Johann can attest, this park that seems full of possibilities was something less in person.
First, the Jewel Box doesn't directly match the pattern on his clothing. The top most level of the J.B. is approximately 5-6 times wider than the stair-step levels below it. This is a detail that I think would be accurate in the picture.
The major monuments and statuary in the immediate vicinity of the J.B. had no familiar traits and the X-shaped garden is actually a 6-pointed star shaped garden with very regular patterns where the rune shapes should be.
The world's fair pavillion also did not seem to resemble anything in any of the pictures. It wasn't until you reach the Apotheosis of St. Louis at the Art Museum that you encounter a "horse's leg." And the Monument to Musicians (music note) is in the far corner of the park from there.
Keep in mind that this park is HUGE (even more so than I expected from the map). I think that if I picked a random two mile path through most major cities, I would come up with just as many "hits" as I personally witnessed here.
I would wait to hear from Johann about his thoughts on Forest Park as he is the resident St. Louis expert and has probably been to the Jewel Box a few times. But with as much research as I have done on the city, I feel like I've got a stranglehold on a very distant second place.
>>>Dan
ps -- By the way, despite all of these latitude and longitude hits in the pictures, there is a small piece of me deep down in my heart that still believes that Image 11 represents St. Louis. Does that make me a bad person?
Egbert
Unknown:
ps -- By the way, despite all of these latitude and longitude hits in the pictures, there is a small piece of me deep down in my heart that still believes that Image 11 represents St. Louis. Does that make me a bad person?
Welcome aboard, Dan! :)
No, it doesn't make you a bad person. In fact, if you look at the "What has been found" thread, you will see that we currently have a dilemma where we have 13 locations and 12 treasures. So, something is wrong somewhere!
It may be that Image 9 does not match St. Louis. However, it certainly appears that Verse 6 does.
catherwood
Unknown:
It wasn't until you reach the Apotheosis of St. Louis at the Art Museum that you encounter a "horse's leg."
How about the General Franz Sigel Statue
near Deer Lake in Forest Park?
hxxp://civilwartraveler.bravepages.com/stlmon_2/l%20Gen%20Franz%20Sigel,%20USA%201h.JPG
dan39decoy
Unknown:
How about the General Franz Sigel Statue
near Deer Lake in Forest Park?
hxxp://civilwartraveler.bravepages.com/stlmon_2/l%20Gen%20Franz%20Sigel,%20USA%201h.JPG
The General's statue is located at the northeastern part of the park. It certainly has a horse, but doesn't quite have the right leg "bend" that the Apotheosis has -- that may or may not be relevant. Also, it is in the opposite direction (moving away) from the World's Fair Pavillion and Art Museum. Though I can't say for sure, it seems like it was at least a mile and a half or more walk from the Jewel Box.
If I'm not mistaken, weren't the statuary and sculpture clues from Chicago and Cleveland located more closely?
My above post certainly was not meant to say that Image 9 does not match with the Jewel Box and Forest Park area. I just wanted to convey what I saw there (and what I didn't see), and hope that someone else would discover something promising.
If people are getting serious about Verse 6 and St. Louis, in the Jewel Box gardens there is a large statue of St. Francis of Assisi with two arms extended and some very large hands. I'll try to post a picture if no one has any luck finding a link.
Also, immediately located there are the Vandeventer Gates (no inscription) that are very old and "clue-worthy) but the Korean War Memorial was installed after the book was published.
>>>Dan
johann
There are so many things to reply to, it would be easier for anyone to check out my latest reply on the verse 6 thread.
I know the park well. If you come this way again, you may want to let me know, Dan, and a team effort may prove fruitful. If we come up with nothing, I can still show you some cool stuff in this town (nothing illegal, don't worry). But that is your choice.
I have thought about the Dogtown idea, and a friend of mine has pointed out 3 "arch" shapes: the fingers, the neck of his white shirt upside-down, and his nose upside-down.
This can be said to be a reach, but a clear arch would be too obvious.
St. Louis (far from Forest Park) also has a "Dutchtown" and the opal is from the Lowland Gnomes.
Actually, Dogtown is connected to the World's Fair. It was rumored that the imported Pygmy tribe was stealing dogs from that neighborhood for food. Crazy rumor. But, the neighborhood got its name. (Maybe someone in the neighborhood was eating the dogs.)
Thanks for the info everyone!!!
--Johann
mrshamrock
ok.,...here goes....
this is my first day here, and i have no real experience with treasure hunting....but it has always interested me. But i guess viewing those hi-res scans with an innocent eye may help...
As far as the anaimal on the shirt...right from the get-go it appeared to be a kangaroo's head with a kangaroos 2 legs.....doesnt do much for the dogleg theory, but maybe you guys can think kangaroo and shoot me down or not
The hand gesture is wierd.....i looked real hard for anything hidden in shadow and the like...but my 11 year old son took 1 look and started with his hands doing the song "heres the church, heres the steeple....open the doors and heres the people".....that pic is done at the "heres the steeple" part....
Boy i know this is going to get me flamed......but its 2:45 am, and heck....why not......your friend from indiana
neVar
"This is the church. This is the steeple.
This is the light in all of the people."
Luke 11:33-36
THAT is exactly what I thought also when I saw that hand gesture! Thanks for bringing that up; I had forgotten my very thought.
fox
Welcome to the every changing, head-ache ridden world of treasure hunting Shamrock :D
It does look like the head of a kangaroo but I'm not sure about the leg and feet. The foot in the P is definitely cloven. Well, now looking over the P while posting this, it is looking more a dog again...with the mouth open the way it is. Who knows though?...the kangaroo & church ideas are definitely worth looking into...
johann
Thanks for the ideas. Please keep them coming on this one, especially anything you may find in the high res. Anything in the lower left of the hair (left as we look at the pic)?
--Johann
wilhouse
Ok Johann - the leg is NOT a kangaroo. It is a cloven hoof, deer, goat, something like that. The head looks like a goat or antelope or something.
There is definately a half note in the flower.
If you check out the negative image I posted, you can see some of this clearly.
hxxp://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/arm ... ing/files/
In the hair on the left side is an 8, I think that was pointed out before. But the insignia on the jacket looks like a semiphore signal. there is a flag on the left side.
wilhouse
neVar
At 300 dpi still, the resolution is not good enough for some filtering. I'll try again when my book comes in... although the downloadable pictures are not bad - and thanks to he that provided those for us.
Lower left of her (his) hair:
X - box symbol (and reversed under blue line) - seems to be a "4" and / or a "7" perhaps?
Dog leg and CAR?
fox
that "thing" under the animal's nose has always bugged me as stated in previous posts. I just cant figure out what the heck it is. I think once we figure out what it is, we will be well on our way to finding this casque.
johann
Wilhouse and neVar--
Thanks much. (Though I was not able to see the neg scan.)
I can't make anything of all this yet, but I will try to process it. You have a good point, fox. What the heck is that thing?
--Johann
wilhouse
Johann, you have to have a Yahoo id to get into the groups. Both Egbert and I have posted lots of stuff there.
wilhouse
dan39decoy
There is a background blemish to the (viewer's) right of the gnome's face. In the other "grainy" backgrounds (i.e. Image 5 & 10) there certainly isn't anything with so much contrast.
Is it just me, or does that look like a Native American with a headdress, riding a lion/horse? Does anyone else see anything significant?
A search for someone riding a lion didn't turn up any good leads. What do you make of this?
fox
Is it just me or does the background look incredibly like sandpaper to anyone else. Does sandpaper tie in with Kill Devil Hill in any way, shape or form?
Sandpaper: Invented by the 3M Corporation. This was 3M's first product and was invented in Two Harbors, MN. It looks like Francis Okie was responsible for such a find: hxxp://www.3m.com/about3M/pioneers/okie.jhtml
neVar
As to the smug ... I can't make anything out - even @ 300 dpi there (should / would) be something. Changing the color density doesn't do much for me either:
... as to that dog leg connected to some creature from hell thing ... with that Lego-like police car ... I thought different angles might help - again, nothing here for me:
(numbers indicate degrees clockwise)
GPKing
fox,
regarding your inquirey to sand and Kill Devil Hill,
Kill Devil Hill is actually a huge sand dune.
It's a couple hundred feet high.
It is right next door to the park that contains
the memorial to the Wright Brothers.
The dune is still used for hang gliding classes and climbing.
fox
I remember the vast amount of sand the Wrights launched from from the history classes....what about paper? I suppose most of the plane was paper......what about Sandpaper? It probably was just something they used as a background for this P.
maltedfalcon
no paper used in the wright flyer.
mostly linen and spruce
cthree
Ever noticed how the left sideof his face looks sinister (arched eyebrow) and the left side looks pleasant? hmmm... Just a thought. :)
maltedfalcon
doesn't sinister mean left?
cthree
Sinister=left
Righteous=right
Hmmm....
Chris
Just looking at those enlarged pictures, the dog leg looks more like a hoofed leg to me.
Chris.
DocLove
im wilhouses son and ive decided to join and i dont think the leg is a dog, it looks more like a elk, deer or like a goat leg
fox
yes, the leg is definitely a cloven hoof...not a canine. The more I look at the head, the more I wonder if it is a dog too. The main reason folks here refer to that as a dog leg is: dog's head + leg (not necessarily a dog) = dogleg....as in a sharp turn in a road or golf course.
cyanide3
ok, here's something to throw out...
go to:
hxxp://www.cityofmemphis.org/
the top left symbol. doesn't it look alittle like it?
I was looking into Memphis because of the music note.
It reminded me the gate at graceland.
maltedfalcon
The facial markings on the animal have always reminded me of something.
I finally tracked it down, the animal head is a Thompson's Gazelle. which is a kind of antelope.
I suspect the hoof & leg are the leg of a gazelle.
So perhaps that indicates something like "antelope rd
or Gazelle ave, or Thompson ave.
something like that....
DocLove
hxxp://www.southerntrophy.net/wpe50.jpg
this is a gazzell and i totally agree that it looks like a gazzell and not a dog; i think maltedfalcon has made sense
maltedfalcon
specifically the "thompson's gazelle" has the same face markings.
fox
yes, the gazelle is a good match...but why no antlers? would it be too easy with them?
here's a dumb idea....gazelle is quite similar to gazette so maybe the casque's city has a paper called the gazette...nah, very dumb, sorry.
like the gazelle though
fox
cyanide, it's funny you mentioned Memphis. When I showed this to my brother years ago, the first thing he said was Memphis as well. He said there is a pyramid shaped bldg (upsidedown collar) there but I believe research found the bldg came after the hunt. He briefly worked on the hunt and was trying the angle that each site would correspond with an ancient site...ie..Memphis (egypt). Dont think he got very far.
cyanide3
I seen that pyamid building when I was looking into Memphis. I think I booked marked it so I can look into it further with the image. I haven't had the chance to do so yet.
maltedfalcon
Unknown:
yes, the gazelle is a good match...but why no antlers? would it be too easy with them?
It has antlers, the pointy thing right above the ear.
its a profile view so you only see one ear and one antler.
fox
ahh, i see now. I always thought we were looking at 2 ears. Now, after agreeing with you, I may have to 360 and disagree with you. The gazelle/animal's mouth is definitely not of a gazelle. The way the jaws (for lack of better word) are almost pointed makes it look more carnivorous....gee, almost like it is eating the deer leg. hmmmm
cswblake
I may be reaching big time, but I found a connection between the gazelle, St. Louis, 1982 and why that snout may look like a dog's snout.
In 1982, the St. Louis Zoological Park/Zoo (in Forest Park) housed the only breeding pair of the Speke's gazelle. The gazelle apparently puffs up its snout when it is alarmed. See the following links:
hxxp://www.stlzoo.org/animals/aboutthea ... azelle.htm
hxxp://natzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGo ... azelle.cfm
By 1983 or so, Speke's gazelles were elsewhere. Anyone think that this fact is enough of one that it would have caught the attention of the authors?
cswblake
Let me throw out a couple of additional items regarding the possible St. Louis connection:
1. Photos of the Jewel Box in the park show that it has five levels to it - with the front view looking a lot like the pyramid shape below our friend's neck. The Jewel Box area has undergone some recent renovation, but I don't think it impacted the building itself. See the photo at: hxxp://www.slfp.com/ForestParkJB.htm.
The Jewel Box is a flower conservatory as well, as I think someone noted.
2. The checkerboard - Ralston Purina has its headquarters located in St. Louis. The better connection - At the World's Fair in 1904 in St. Louis, Purina won a number of awards and "acquainted thousands of people with the products bearing the checkerboard..." See the Purina web site, which contains this nice summary:
"The Louisiana Purchase Exposition in 1904 drew thousands of people to St. Louis. It also acquainted thousands of people with the products bearing the Checkerboard. The Purina booth served Ralston breakfast food and pancakes made with Purina Pancake Flour. Checkerboard bags filled with Ralston Breakfast Food, Purina Whole Wheat Flour and Purina Pancake Flour were distributed to Fair visitors. Each of those products won a first prize in its category, helping Purina share the spotlight with St. Louis. "
BTW, I am also a recent convert due to the Cleveland Plain Dealer story about Egbert. May we find the rest!
fox
welcome to the mad mad mad mad world of the secret blake. St. Louis is indeed a city the masses are trying to focus on at the moment and your ideas merit some research.
way to go Egg, your find is bringing in the cavalry.
maltedfalcon
If you want the page with the jewel box
you need to remove the final period from the url above.
hxxp://www.slfp.com/ForestParkJB.htm
johann
I have been all around Forest Park many times, including last week at the Shakespeare Festival. While awaiting friends, I again stood outside the Art Museum, near the St. Louis statue, yet again looking out on the park from a high vantage point and taking a romp to examine yet another thing. I've looked at every "thing" in the park, but tomorrow I will go look again with this pic in mind (this too, again).
Thanks for some info that I had not discovered (the gazelles and Purina's role in the Fair). I'll post my discoveries, if any.
I still wonder about that "thing" in the box with the gazelle. What the heck is that thing? I am partial to neVar's Lego police car.
--Johann
fox
Just another little thing that may come in handy....a map of the park.
hxxp://www.slfp.com/SLFP-FPFEmap.htm
johann
Thanks, Fox.
Well, here is my present theory, matching this pic with verse 2 for a St. Louis treasure. I will post the other side of the theory in the verse 2 thread.
I poked around at the park and researched in the library of the Art Museum. Some of the following is gleaned from the input of others on this thread (and a hardy thanks).
--gnome: Vandeventer (Dutch) Place structure, which is U-shaped like his long eye-wrinkles with a nose-opening in the middle. The structure is split by a doorway in the middle. It was backdrop for a rose garden, part of the Jewel Box garden.
--mouth: half smile, half frown; comedy and tragedy (nearby Muny opera).
--musical note on flower (the Muny, again); this symbol is debatable as a number (90, 67, 76, 767) or other symbol.
--the Purina checkers and Jewel Box tiers have been noted by cswblake.
--one of the runes in the X box has been connected with water, and there are a pool and fountain in the Jewel gardens.
--dog/gazelle's head and hoof: could be the gazelle/Zoo (cswblake) or a dog's head and horse's hoof (Dogtown is the closest neighborhood, where dogs chased the horses to keep them moving, and there is also the World's Fair connection when it was rumored that the dogs were being eaten by a tribe on display). There seems to be an upside-down arch on the dog/gazelle's face.
--base of gnome's collar: upside-down arch
--his nose and mouth upside-down=an elephant=zoo
--right (his rt.) curl in hair contains a 39, and St. Louis's lat is closer to 39. Or, there seems to be a 7 or 17
--hat checkers on his left: substitution of a gold square for a black square seems to make a cross (Apotheosis of St. Louis sculpture or is this a far reach?).
--folds at top of hat on his left: part of it could be an outline of St. Louis on the Mississippi, but that is a big reach. Perhaps the shirt and collar may say more about this, but I can't see anything.
--hands, fingers pointing: one points to #s in hair on his left, one points to dog/gazelle box. The left hand does look like one of the hands of a woman gymnast on the Jahn sculpture, which is not very close to the Jewel Box gardens.
--sandy-colored background: sand used to make glass, the main component of the Jewel Box (OK, a big reach).
Qs: the musical note could be a combined 90, the STL long.
Could the X mean more than the month? An hourglass? (see verse 2 thread) And, by golly, what the heck is that "thing"??!! It has some squared edges and some rounded ones.
The arch-mark on the dog/gazelle's face could be a 5 when the pic is sideways (clockwise).
Gnomes hairline has J9 (or upside-down, a 6P); big 9 or 6, 73, another 9, a K. (????)
Well, scrutiny is needed and more details. The central gates on the Vandeventer Place structure were moved in 1985 to Cochran's hospital (formerly a vet's hospital) and I'd like to take a look at them. I would also like another look inside the Jewel Box itself. There is some kind of chime structure in there, possibly donated in 76.
So, I'm not reaching for the shovel yet, even though much may be clarified by verse 2 (assuming this is the correct verse-pic match.
--Johann
johann
Thanks, rob. I will hunt around with this in mind. Perhaps I need to shift my perspective in order to see the "thing."
--Johann
maltedfalcon
Hows this for a possibility for the lego thing.
knowing BP has demonstrated a liking for fountains.
- at least 3 fountains involved in cleveland
- arieal view of grant park fountain dangling from ear
what if on the lego thing, the curved lines represent water.
(so lets erase them)
then the lower shapes become a split stairway leading to the fountain...
let me know if I'm reaching here.
maltedfalcon
Sorry this is the first time I am trying to imbed a picture
let me try again.
if it doesn't work the picture is at:
hxxp://www.papermodeler.com/images/legos.jpg
maltedfalcon
there - thats better
now the question is does anyone recognize this fountain?
fox
now that is more like it falcon. This is something even I would agree on. (having trouble with a lego police car :-/).
I really like the fountain idea with the pics you posted. Dont think I would have seen it with just a description from you. Now, if it is a fountain, why is the base so .... well lack of a better word.... off? Maybe it is because of the location our perspective is from. Maybe there is a bldg or some other object in front of the fountain.
time to fountain surf.......wheeeeee :D
johann
Much thanks, falcon! I printed a copy of your pictures, and I will check out locations. --Johann
johann
This is double-posted on the "map" thread. Turning the pic a little counter-clockwise, there may be the outline of the Mississippi at St. Louis and above and below St.L.
Look at the outside edge of his white shirt, the edge on his left side. I need opinions to keep my wishful thinking in check. Thanks. --Johann
johann
I did find a split stairway fountain in Forest Park, on the hill beneath the World's Fair Pavilion. The stair on each side makes a turn, as does the "stairs" on the left side of the image but not the stairs on the right side. The circular bowl fountain shoots water up high (like the top vertical line in the image) and the water spills over the bowl (like the curved lines in the image) and then the water descends as a waterfall in the middle between the stairs and into a rectangular or squarish pool. Could the light-colored square on the bottom of the image represent the pool or the waterfall? This could be a reach.
Of course, this interpretation strongly depends on the image as being representational. It is definitely not a literal picture of the fountain. But, that is all I have found so far.
johann
I know that we have discussed the runes in the X box. I believe it was fox who contributed info.
Another idea: upside-down, the one on the right looks like a V. Right-side up, the one on the left looks like a P.
If so, this VP (unless it is a PV) could represent Vandeventer Place, which I mention in my long post above. If so, could the X, aside from indicating the month of October, simply mean "X marks the spot"? I know this is a lot of supposing, ending with the most ridiculously obvious joke in treasure hunting, but what do y'all think? --Johann
xlurker
Hi everyone. I asked my boss to look at the leg and head photo. He is a taxidermist and knows animals pretty well. His impression was a fox head and a horse leg because the hoof does not appear split. This made me think immediately of the Missouri Fox Trotters. I live in Missouri but I know very little about these horses.
maltedfalcon
Unknown:
I did find a split stairway fountain in Forest Park, on the hill beneath the World's Fair Pavilion. Could the light-colored square on the bottom of the image represent the pool or the waterfall?
Any chance you could post or point us to a picture of the fountain. I know I am extrapolating lots from very little data, but this is the kind of thing I was thinking when I was thinking it looked like a fountain.
maltedfalcon
this fountain?
could be...
and does this match?
or is it not close enough...
johann
xlurker--
Thanks for the info on the Fox Trotters. There are mounted police in Forest Park, but I'm not sure what breeds they ride.
Where are you in Missouri? I am in St. Louis.
maltedfalcon--
Yes, that is the fountain I had in mind, but I am not sure if it is represented by the "thing." If your photo was back a bit, you would see the stairs on each side of it. As you can see, the square on the bottom of the "thing" (and your drawing) does not match the fountain well. And by the way, nice drawing! That will help.
xlurker
Johann,
I'm in Rosebud, Missouri. If I can get time I'm going to look into Lafayette Park a little. On the street map Missouri and Mississippi "meet" at the park. Also reference to "fays". I can't drive in the city and don't get there very often so I'm at the mercy of the internet even being this close. Good luck!
johann
If you ever need me to go somewhere on foot, let me know. I've been up and down, back and forth through this city so many times that I'm dizzy.
wilhouse
Johann, I scanned image 9 and looked at his hat. I checked previous posts and didn't see this, so pardon me if this has been said.
On the top right side of his hat, the edge appears to be an outline of something. Notice that the rest of the top of his hat is a fairly good curve. But the right side is all uneven.
there also appears to be something across the bridge of his nose, but even blown up I can't tell what.
wilhouse
johann
wilhouse-- I haven't noticed anything on the bridge of his nose, but I will look closely. I have wondered about that crumpled side of his hat, but I have not been able to make anything of it. Thanks for the pointers.
xlurker-- I had been to Lafayette Park before, but I did not see anything that reflected verse 2. Yet, I may have missed something, and perhaps I should take a second look.
As a matter of fact, I was there today to photograph for an album cover. I remembered a beautiful section of broken tile and concrete, the background I wanted. However, I was so absorbed in what I was doing that I did not give much thought to the hunt (a rare event). I will keep looking. Eventually we will crack this thing.
johann
wilhouse-- I forgot to add that there is something strange about the checkers beneath the crumpled part of the hat. The black and gold pattern is disrupted, and I would like to see a close-up of that if anyone can do so.
I was also wondering: why the colors gold and black? I have no idea.
fox
while taking my little son to the library today, I found myself driving circles around the block waiting for a parking space to open. On one of my laps, I happened to look up and see a city sign with a block fountain on it. Now, of course I am not contending this P is for ABQ, NM but this...... What if we dont necessarily need to find a fountain that is an exact match....but just a sign nearby? I had always thought that "thing" looked like a block-style-version-of-some-type-of-city-sign. You know, like no parking, pedestrian crossing, etc..
Just a thought to throw out. If needed, I can try to take a pic of the sign but I dont know how that will help.
wilhouse
Johann, yes, I see it. There are three boxes in the middle row and two boxes in the lower row. They are distorted. The right box in the middle row seems to have something definite in it. Even blown up it is hard to see.
Perhaps neVar or Dan can blow it up and see it better and post it. It is on the right side of the hat below the crumpled part.
wilhouse
cthree
Here you go--it is hard to make out anything definate. Could be a representation of a valley with the curves in the hat being hills or mountains.
johann
cthree-- Much thanks. Hopefully we'll make sense of it soon.
(And, way to go on the Charleston quest!)
cthree
No problem and thank you johann ;)
wilhouse
Maybe it's just a trick of the picture, but looking at the cut by cthree, it sure looks like the profile of a face.
wilhouse
johann
I have been wondering about the profile idea, but I have mixed feelings about it. If the forehead is to the left, it could be a profile of the World's Fair tribes that are connected with the legend of Dogtown (the claim that they ate dogs in this neighborhood, which is next to Forest Park). Yet, if this is so, it could be considered a mean caricature. I'm not trying to be politically correct, but I'd like to think that the illustrators would be above that.
Or, this interpretation of the profile (if profile it is) may be no more than my imagination.
I intend no offense here.
johann
I forgot to mention an observation. His pointer fingers are pointing to the "dog/fox/gazelle-horse" (which has a 5 on its face when the pic is turned sideways-clockwise) and to the 5-tiered pattern on his shirt.
I don't know what this means, if it means anything. His hands are another feature that puzzles me.
(a church/steeple/people image has been suggested by--Wilhouse's son, I believe) I did find a statue in Forest Park, St. Louis that has a hand shaped similar to his left hand, but I have not found any hand to suggest his right hand. I think the left hand similarity on the statue is just incidental.
cthree
Unknown:
If the forehead is to the left, it could be a profile of the World's Fair tribes that are connected with the legend of Dogtown (the claim that they ate dogs in this neighborhood, which is next to Forest Park). Yet, if this is so, it could be considered a mean caricature......
I intend no offense here.
You! My mother is a dog-eater! >:(
johann
cthree-- Is this true? If so, I apologize.
cthree
LOL--no no! i was just kidding! :D You'd be hard pressed to offend me--you are my treasure buddy!!
johann
I'm glad you were just joking and we are treasure buddies. I'd hate to be on the wrong side of a fellow treasure hunter, especially since most of us carry shovels. My family would have to follow clues for 25 years before they'd find me.
johann
Hold the phone on my St. Louis theory for this pic!
I followed the 39 longitude (which has been found in the curl of the gnome's hair) and found Baltimore (39 lat, 76 long) or Annapolis (38.97, 76.503). The Maryland flag, and the citis' flags, are colored with black and gold checks, similar to the pic. (
www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/maryland/
)
(flagspot.net/flags/us-md-b.html)
The government badges of Baltimore imitate this design.
(
www.ci.baltimore.md.us/government/
)
Netherland gnomes: The Dutch had colonies in Maryland, especially along the Delaware River. There was also a colony of Dutch immigrants established in Bohemia Hundred, Cecil County , MD (1684), NE of Baltimore.
(
www.bcplonline.org/info/history/hist_herrman.html
)
(
www.geocities.com/~topolyp/projects.html
)
Puritans founded Providence (1649), later called "Anne Arundel's Town" (Lord Baltimore's Dutch wife), and then Annapolis (after Queen Anne, in 1708).
(
www.ci.annapolis.md.us/visitors/welcome/history.asp
)
And, I don't know if there is a direct connection, but some of the Separatist Pilgrims went to the Netherlands (Holland, of course) before Plymouth (1620)
Annapolis maps:
www.annapolis.gov/government/depts/tran ... ap.asp#map
www.hometownannapolis.com/tour.html
Baltimore map:
www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/mdmanual ... citym.html
parks in Baltimore (or Annapolis? my error?):
www.ci.baltimore.md.us/government/recnp ... ntory.html
Sandy Point SP, Hart-Miller Island State Park, Rosaryville SP,
North Point SP, Wye Oak P (some are outside the city)
also useful:
www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=2437
johann
Concerning an earlier post on this thread about the Missouri Fox Trotters (the controversial dog/fox/gazelle with a hoofed leg), today I trotted over to the St. Louis Forest Park mounted police headquarters to ask about their breeds. They are definitely not Fox Trotters nor do they use any fancy gait. It does not seem as though they ever have used fancy horses for their kind of work.
johann
I know I have proposed St. Louis and Baltimore for this pic, but I also wonder if Quebec Province, Canada is a possibility. I don't think I am the first to suggest Canada.
If we consider the lat/long numbers to be 73 (upside-down in hair) and 47 (what we have called runes in the X box), here are the cities close to 47, 73:
Quebec City--46.75, 71.17 (one source says 46.48, 71.15)
Montreal--45.50, 73.58 (one source 45.31, 73.34)
Trois-Rivieres--46.21, 72.33
Laval--45.36, 73.44 (NW suburb of Montreal, an island,
and 2nd largest city in the province)
Gatineau--45.29, 75.39
Sherbrooke--45.24, 71.54 (E of Montreal)
Hull--45.26, 75.44
So, Trois-Rivieres would seem to be promising if 47, 73 are indeed the numbers. Then again, there is the upside-down 39 in the curl of his hair.
johann
Sounds great, fenix! I am really back and forth (more likely, scattered) on this pic with several simultaneous theories.
xlurker
This pic is driving me nuttier.
Lego car looks like a child/person peeking over the back of a bench or a school bus seat. (with a satchel on floor?) It looks like a pedestal type bench though. This "patch" may be telling us children's zoo.
Outside the open eyes on her/his face are another set of closed eyes. The arched eyebrow is actually over one of the closed eyes. If you fold to almost cover the open eyes you get another more normal looking mouth. Kind of looks like the Grinch. What has 4 eyes and still can't see? Mississippi.
Musical flower- viola/ violet
Musical note makes "MO". O being under the M.
I can't really make much of the collar but I found a cool site looking.
hxxp://www.cupola.com
johann
xlurker--
Great observations, by golly!
I had never noticed these things. Coincidentally, I had planned to intensively check out the St. Louis theory (again, of course) tomorrow (and perhaps Friday as well, of course). Much thanks!
johann
Regarding the St. Louis Jewel Box area theory, I went there today with sticks, thread, measuring tape, thin trellis pole, tapping hammer (marked for each half-foot), and my copy of The Secret. Then
I tapped all 'round
The treasure ground
To uproot something
And brought up nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing, and I'm quite stumped.
wilhouse
Johann,
I know exactly how you feel. I have been to the zoo 6, 7 times and got nothing.
I know this is a funny suggestion, but perhaps you should try to contact some local environmental companies and see if you can borrow a gpr (ground penetrating radar) unit. there are small ones that you just pull behind you. You will need a 400mhz unit to see 3-4 feet down.
You can try and trade some free publicity for the use of one if you find it.
the internet will be your guide to who has one.
wilhouse
johann
Thanks, Wilhouse! It sounds intense. I'll have to look into it. Radar would be quite useful, especially to save some digging. I'm not in the best shape, and I fear five minutes with a shovel.
Perhaps one of those Iraq-war bunker-busters would be useful as well.
nectarbean
I'm new here, but ever since my brother introduced me to this book, I have become obsessed. All I think about is theses paintings!!
So this may be way off base, but I keep seeing the nose as some sort of large fish, or perhaps a whale?
The fingers bother me most of all. I keep turning them around to see if I can pick out a mountain formation or some sort of design. I was going to look for a sign language book...they're really bothering me the most.
The lego car really reminds me of the old "patty wagons", I recall seeing one in the Diary of Anne Frank and Swing Kids.
As far as the numbers in the hair:
I see 735 (our right side,lower curls)
J 9 (above the brow, our left)
johann
nectarbean--
Welcome to the hint! Thanks for sharing your insights. I will be thinking about them, especially the 735. I have not yet found these numbers there.
I have also been puzzled by the hands. The fingers seem to point to varied parts of the picture. I have spent some time flipping through a sign language book, but I haven't found anything yet. The vocabulary is immense. I should just show the picture to some friends in the deaf ministry at my church and see if they can identify the hand shapes. It probably means something like: Please pass the bananas, there are worms in my hat.
mm2587
nectarbean led me here through another forum, and I've been looking at this picture for a while, and two things have come to me. First I agree with the gazelle, In fact I can't see a dog in there at all. the symbol under it bothered me most, I could make nothing of it, until I saw the picture with it rotated, when it was upside down, I saw an upside down person! so turning it right side up again, I see a person, walking, holding a brief case. now this image would be in a cubist sort of style.
The blue being the arms, the red is the body, the black the brief case, the yellow is the legs, and the uncolored section being the head.
I just can't seem to shake that image of a person from my head
Now a theroy I wish to look into further is this "thompsons gazelle" could there be an artist named thompson who created an image similar to the object below the head.
The foutain idea is also very interesting though
johann
mm2587-- Thank you for contributing a very new interpretation of the "thing" (as it has been called). I will look at it more carefully and open-minded now. It has had me stumped for quite some time.
And welcome to the hunt!
xlurker
After more hours on this one I have some thoughts. This screams St. Louis to me still. If the gazelle patch means Children's Zoo and if the musical note is really "MO" and if the Jewel Box connection is right and if if if......
Anyway the smudge on the wall discussed earlier looks like it reads Peele? Deel? Dec.1? Dec.10? or something to me. Does anyone else see it?
In the P7 or 47 patch the P looks like a flag on a golf course. Hole 7? Hole 10? If this goes with Verse 2 then maybe we need a retaining wall in a golf course 15 rows high and 21 feet long. Forest Park In St. Louis had a 9 and an 18 hole course. The 18 hole course has recently been redone though. (Imagine that) Maybe the fingers are saying Triple A which is the 9 hole course.
Well Johann.... is this enough to keep you busy this weekend?
johann
Actually, it is enough to keep me busy tomorrow when I will be over there for other reasons. But as long as I am over there . . . So goes an obsessive hunt.
Thank you very much for the insight. It will be contemplated most carefully.
johann
xlurker, you were right on!
I went to the Jewel Box area today, and checked out the AAA golf course, which is one of three courses in the park and is immediately next to the Jewel Box area. One of the holes runs all along the Jewel Box area: Hole #7
!
I looked around the course without being hit by any balls, and I could not find anything that matches the 15 and 21 numbers. (I did not look through the entire course, but only what is in the vicinity.) I have converted the numbers into letters, considered that the middle of 21 could be 11 or K, and I still am at a loss. Perhaps I must keep hunting the area and dodging rabid gazelle's.
xlurker
Good work Johann!!
I wish I could find more pictures of the courses and the area.
I'll keep my eyes to the picture for now until I can talk someone into a good game of golf!
johann
I have played golf once, many years ago. I scored a 97 on 6 holes; my brother made me skip the last holes because I kept sinking his balls in the lakes and he couldn't afford that.
So, I can't offer a GOOD game, but I can offer a game.
mm2587
johann what is par for the course at hole number 7?(the whole course, 1-7 added up)
wilhouse
Hey guys, I know this sounds silly, but...
there are 10 numbers below 11 and 10 numbers above 11, the last being 21.
One could argue that the middle of 21 is 11.
Johann, does anything around the 11th hole make sense?
wilhouse
johann
mm2587 and Wilhouse--Thanks! These are useful ideas, and I will jump to them this week. I will be running around that course with a shovel, hunting gophers (OK, a weak Caddy Shack joke). But seriously, I will investigate these ideas.
And, by the way, I may have found the "namesakes meeting near this site" (although this info belongs on the verse 2 thread). Nearby is Carr Dr. where cars would drive of course. This would be a pathetic joke, but I suppose we can expect anything on this hunt.
johann
Wrll, here is the present status of St. Louis. I suspect the Friedrich Jahn sculpture, in Forest Park, as the site of the treasure. It is U-shaped (verse 2: in the middle of 21=U from end to end), and there ius a recebtly renovated boathouse with a waterway leading up in the direction of the sculpture (verse 2: 15[O???] rows down to the ground.) That last line coukd be a reach; I am puzzled. The plaques on the sculpture are appropriately black and gold, and there is a large center-plaque with two torches in a large X-pattern.
The sculpture features a stern bust with a gymnast to eack side. One of the hands on one of the gymnast's resembles the pointing hand in the pic. Behind the sculpture woukld be a very well hidden place to dig.
So, I decided to dig and . . .
I found something. A glass/plastic vial with a rolled up message inside (1' below surface). You can imagine my excitement when I unrolled the handwritten, photocopied parchment, which reads:
We are many countanances [misspelling], some happy, others severe. We are surrounded by our naturally shapen brothers. Your next clue lays beneath the eastern most of our number.
What?! Huh?! Could I have stumbled on another treasure hunt? One of the gymnasts is more eastern, and I tried to dig a little there, but the ground was too hard.
What in the Fair-Folkin' world?
***I am considering sonar.*** Any advice, Willhouse?
wilhouse
it sure sounds like you stumbled on someone else's hunt.
gpr would be able to tell you if there was something (a void, a change in density) up to about 3 feet deep.
the best way to find one is to do a google on gpr and find some local people. tell them your story and see if they'll loan you a unit for the weekend.
here's one site I found:
hxxp://www.worksmartinc.net/
these guys will rent you one. not terribly pricey, but not free:
hxxp://www.sensoft.ca/
good luck - email me if you need more info at
[email protected]
wilhouse
maltedfalcon
wilhouse, define not terribly pricey....
matt
intrigued
Johann,
The fact that you found anything at all--even if it is another hunt--is exciting! I would try to solve this riddle as well...
wilhouse
Pricey depends on where you are.
They only charge about $200/day, which is extremely reasonable. However, they charge a setup fee of $250, again, which is actually reasonable.
the bad part comes in shipping. if they have to ship it to you, with insurance it's about $250 each way. So for a weekend you are going to be out about $1000.
Of course, then you have to find someone to help you read the data. I have contacts for that if needed.
wilhouse
maltedfalcon
spending 1000$ to find a buried treasure worth about that kind of defeats the purpose.... ;)
dan39decoy
Johann --
Excitement abounds! I can't wait to get this bothersome wedding over with so I can rejoin this hunt once again.
I'm not sure if you are interested in following up this second mysterious hunt, but it might be a fun side quest. Off the top of my head, a good starting place to scout would be the front of the art museum, where the statues of gods line the top of the building. I don't remember if they wear different expressions, or if the building even lays from the east to the west. Otherwise, either the Blair and Bates statues may have reliefs on each of their four sides depicting people.
In any event, congrats. Even an unrelated discovery is still a discovery.
fox
Unknown:
parchment, which reads:
We are many countanances [misspelling], some happy, others severe. We are surrounded by our naturally shapen brothers. Your next clue lays beneath the eastern most of our number.
When I read this I first thought about trees. Maybe you should check around the eastern most tree in the area. Good luck on this 2nd hunt...if that is what it is. Does the wording of this parchment resemble any of "The Secret" verses? Who knows, maybe BP did different things at different sites... unlikely but who knows.
xlurker
Johann,
Awesome news!! Congrats. Just what do you think the odds of stumbling across another hunt? I think not much. Anyway what about local hunting clubs? Try this.
hxxp://www.coinshooters.freeservers.com/about.html
Surely someone in the club can help with a gpr or knows someone who can. It says they have 120 members and they do help individuals.
Keep us posted!
X
cthree
wow what are the odds! Thats really cool id really try to follow up on that! Maybe it was a hunt designed so it could only start if some random person decided to dig in that random place and find the clue? lol that would be cool but i doubt it---in any case follow up for sure and keep us posted. What was the condition of the contaner? How long would you guess it had been buried? That is so neat!
johann
Thanks all!! I'll keep posting when anything new arises.
--Johann
maltedfalcon
I would look for some rocks around a statue or statues and then look under the eastern most rock
the rocks being naturally carved versions of the statues which are not naturally carved....
question did you put the clue back so that it could be found by those really doing the hunt?
johann
I did put the "other" clue back and did some more digging as long as I had the shovel in the dirt. Nothing, nothing, nothing.
But, I am going to pursue the sonar plan, looking into costs and other options.
Also, the pic does have a vague image of Missouri in the square at the bottom right (with the X square at the St. Louis spot) and the upper left diagonal curve in the pattern on man's right shoulder, which runs into the "step" pattern (his right). A friend of mine noticed this.
wilhouse
Johann, can you post a shot of Missouri next to where you are talking about?
wilhouse
johann
Thank you for the effort, but no. The upper left curve of the state woukd actually coordinate with his shoulder (not his collar), and the state's lower right "thing" would coordinate with the square that contains the gazelle/foz head.
Or, perhaps my idea may be too vague, hence a "reach."
Yet again, thanks for the artful post. (I wish I knew how to do that fancy computer stuff.)
maltedfalcon
I don't see it.
I mean I see the leg thing and the shoulder but I don't see the map fitting neatly over the top- clarify for me more and I will try to draw it up
But you bring up a good question, what do they (missourians) call the little peninsula on the lower right of the state. its not called the "dogleg" or the "fetlock" or anything cute like that is it?
xlurker
Good job with the pics! Thank you.
I was born and raised here (Missouri) and the only thing I've heard the "thing" called is the bootheel.
maltedfalcon
oh yeah I can see the boot heel
I was thinking it might be the tie to the funny hoofed leg....
johann
maltedfalcon--
I can only clarify a lack of clarity on my part. The state outline, if there is one, would have to be quite "loose," possibly in the "stretch/reach" category.
spinner
During the 80's, the Arena in St. Louis was just across the highway from the jewel box site. What those of you from St. Louis forget is what it was called back then....
hxxp://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/St.Loui ... dindex.htm
"During the late 70's (I think, maybe early 80's), Ralston Purina bought the Blues and the building, and changed the name of the Arena to "The Checkerdome". It was the Checkerdome for at least 6 or 7 years."
This helps to make the checks on the outfit, espesially the hat, fit the St. Louis solution.
I think I solved the hands too. You golfers out there should have caught it. Grab a golf club with a standard grip, and then raise the club so that your hands are pointed the same way as our 'friend'. Looks the same doesnt it? I am guessing that the hands could not be shown pointed down as they would with a club as this view would be just too obvious. I think that the dogleg also refers more to golf than it does a bend in a road. The flag and 7 on the right not only refer to the 7th hole on a golf course, but the 7th hole at AAA in Forest Park which is right next to the Jewel Box.
Only three stand watch
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
If Verse 2 goes with this picture, then I really think golf plays a big role. 'Only three stand watch'. Ever play golf? Usually the group is 4 and only one person hits at a time, leaving 3. The lions for the three stand watch line works very good too though. (see Johann's posts).
johann
Way to go, Spinner!!!
spinner
Johann,
I dug, and dug, and dug.
I really thought you had something with the Vandeventer Gate. It is shaped like a U which could be the reference in the twenty-one line of the verse. Also, the crows feet coming off of the pictures eyes distinctly have the same shape as the Vandeventer Gate. When you said that there were 3 lions there on the lampost, I had to check it out. If that was like that back in the 80's, which looks possible, then a statement like 'only 3 stand watch' seems like a reference to the fact that there could have been or should have been more.
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
What this means to me was that you draw a line from the tip of one side of the U to the other tip, making a line accross the top. The middle of that line is where I dug at the Vandeventer Gate and found a layer of rocks pretty hard to get through about 6" down and nothing else down to 3'. This layer was all over the area and everywhere I dug, I had to go through it. It seems to me that if the treasure was here, then BP would have had to break this layer down a long time ago, but that would not be enough time for this layer to reform as solid as it was.
Sadly, but gladly, if we read the verse but take the context a bit further...
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
Only three stand watch
We see that we could interpret this to mean that the three stand watch in the middle of the U from end to end, which is pretty darn close where the lions are (but not exactly, they are maybe 8 feet away from the exact spot, but still centered in the U). I think I have to accept this as the meaning of those 3 lines of verse. The Vandeventer Gate is an important position of some sort, but not necessarily the spot to dig. One of the things I was trying to make work is the fact that in image 9, the dudes eyes are looking through the Vandeventer Gate made by his crows feet. I stood there for a long time looking, but saw nothing that made me say 'eureka'.
So there you have it, I think that if we concentrate on the thing under the dogleg in the picture as this is still not solved, any sort of the number references in the picture, Possibly try to match the flowers petals to some kind of local path or road pattern, and the unfinished lines of the verse, we got it nailed. (easily said but not done)
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
The namesakes meeting
Near this site.
PS, I checked out your Jahn U too, and did not think it matched close enough to start diggin in front of it.
PSS, I was also trying to make sheltering heads into the heads of golf clubs.
wilhouse
Spinner, this is excellent work. Don't give up you are on the right track. I know how frustrating it is to dig and dig and get nothing. I suggest you get a long thin metal pole with a handle (I use a "pipe feeler" from Home Depot) so you don't have to keep digging, because if he put it there you can get through the rocks at that point.
Could there be a Knight's Inn, or Kings Pub or some kind of clubhouse with a royal title that would fit those lines of the verse?
wilhouse
johann
Spinner--
Good work! I had tried where you tried, but with a Home Depot probe and not a shovel. I also found that 6" down was something hard all over the place.
I was considering behind the Jahn sculpture.
Why don't we get together somewhere like a Starbucks or a St. Louis Bread Co. Two heads are better than one.
spinner
New tidbit, one of the things we needed to make work with this site is the link to the dutch. (See the thread on What has been found).
Well, here it might be... The Vandeventer Gate.
hxxp://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fami ... venter.htm
The name Vandeventer is... say it with me... Dutch.
johann
That's what I've been considering for some time now. It very well could be the ethnic link.
spinner
Ok, I dont want to reach, but I am going to. In the days of kings and queens, is it not true that they would build many palaces? I cant find any written references to this, but it just jumps out of my memory that this was somewhat common and the name of the route linking the palaces was... The Kings Highway. So lets argue that 'Kingshighway' happens to be a major road in STL that 'meets' another major road called 'Vandeventer'. And lets just say for a moment that these roads meet about 2 miles or less from the Jewel Box location. Lets also say that one could call these roads 'Namesakes'. You diggin me here?
wilhouse
Works for me.
where to next?
wilhouse
johann
I'm diggin' ya, but we can also add that the Forest Park World's Fair included many temporary structures called Palaces and there is the statue of King Louis.
The Palaces were temporary structures (hence "palaces to shelter there heads for a night"?).
maltedfalcon
could not fair be a namesake of fairy?
johann
That would be a hard clue to follow to the site, but a possibility.
spinner
Went on recon last night after work.
Vandeventer and Kingshighway does have a fountain in a little patch of grass, but nothing resembling anything that we know.
Also walked the length of Kingshighway along Forest Park. Looking for anything, but mostly the 15 rows and that little shape under the dog leg. Nothing jumped out at me except for the obvious changes since 1982. Metrolink was not there in 82. All those refurbishments along Kingshighway like the light poles and Center Medians were not there back then either. I hope some of these are still solvable considering what can happen in 20 years.
wilhouse
is there a brick or rock or cinderblock wall somewhere along the way that you could count the rows or bricks to get you to some point?
Part of my thinking is my hypothesis that Preiss hid these things next to permanent features, like walls or such, so that he could easily come back and claim them if needed.
wilhouse
johann
I have walked all over Forest Park in quest of a wall, including on the golf course. Nothing matched the numbers.
I have been to the Missouri Historical Society, researching old photos of the Jewel Box area, but there was no wall. There was a giant clock on the ground made out of a flower bed, I believe roses. This made me think of 15=O rose=rows, but still that did not lead anywhere. As Spinner says, there is a lot of rock beneath the Vandeventer Gate.
fox
Unknown:
Went on recon last night after work.
Vandeventer and Kingshighway does have a fountain in a little patch of grass, but nothing resembling anything that we know.
what does that fountain look like spinner? check out maltedfalcon's posts on June 23, 2004 {ooh, sidenote..thats my b-day
}
spinner
The fountain looked nothing like the 'thing'. Simple basin with cherrubs takin a leak in it.
johann
I have played around with the idea of the fountain being the one at the World's Fair Pavilion or the one inside the Jewel Box atop a somewhat spiraled staircase, but I think I was reaching.
johann
Spinner (or anyone)--
Any new ideas? How is it going? I'm stumped.
spinner
Im currently at a dead end. My pop oddly enough went and used dowsing rods near the Vandeventor Gate site and said he got 3 hits that he thinks i should check out. Has it really come to this? Yes, yes I believe it has.
wilhouse
Is your pop going to be in Houston any time soon? I can have him dowse in the CZ!!
wilhouse
johann
At this point, whatever might work.
spinner
actually, my sister lives in houston and my dad flys down there multiple times a year. I will take a look at that puzzle more closely and see what to make out and where to send him
wilhouse
well, I think I have it narrowed down to about a 300sq ft area. I just need to know where exactly to dig...
wilhouse
fox
wilhouse wrote::
well, I think I have it narrowed down to about a 300sq ft area. I just need to know where exactly to dig...
wilhouse
how about where the casque is located
wilhouse
every one likes a cute ass. no one likes a smart...
wilhouse
fox
wilhouse wrote::
every one likes a cute ass. no one likes a smart...
wilhouse
my wife thinks I'm cute..................................................I think
Kato
Just an observation, as I am new to the Board and have only recently acquired a copy of The Secret: The high dark collar on the left side of the figure( the figure's right side) looks strikingly like the State of Vermont, including the proper alignment of borders. Am I just seeing things?
fox
It does indeed look quite similar to the state of Vermont; however, that sure throws a wrench into our theory of each of these locations being on a coast or having a shoreline. Something else to look into though.
Kato
The state of Vermont does in fact have a "shoreline" of sorts on both its eastern and western borders: On the east the Connecticut River describes the border with New Hampshire, and runs the entire length of the State. On the west Lake Champlain describes the partial border with New York State, and runs north into Canada. The State of Vermont has a substantial shoreline along Lake Champlain, as well as along the Connecticut river valley. The high collar looks very much like the State of Vermont, and if it isn't, it is one heck of a coincidence.
Kato
Another clue that
MIGHT
point to Vermont is the well established "73" formed by the hair on the right side of the figure( the figure's left side). The "73" observation has also been mentioned elsewhere on this board. For instance, the longitude of Burlington, Vermont is 73 degrees and 9 minutes west of the prime meridian. Burlington Vermont is located on the "shoreline" or coast of Lake Champlain, so it may be possible that the casque is located in that general area. Does anybody see a "44", which is the latitude of Burlington?
fox
I think what I meant (had brain freeze) was a port city. Burlington, I suppose, could be considered a port city so it looks like we have another place to start exploring.
I am a tad leary with this though....seeing as the found casques were in Chicago & Cleveland and the most likely targeted areas are Houston, San Francisco, Milwaukee, etc.... Dont know if I would rate Burlington with any of these well known places.
johann
Please go with this. Perhaps the pic is NOT St. Louis.
bclews
Sorry, I just don't see Vermont. (I'm from Vermont.)
Maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly. Could you please post an image of what you see?
Egbert
I don't think it's Vermont or St. Louis. By process of elimination, discussed in the "What has been found" thread, I think this has to be the New York pic.
Egbert
I don't think it's Vermont or St. Louis. By process of elimination, discussed in the "What has been found" thread, I think this has to be the
New
York pic.
forest_blight
In support of NYC is a possible 73 on the right side of his hair. NYC is at 74 W. longitude, but is quite large. Looking for a 40/41 (for NYC's latitude), the weird number thingy in the flower could easily be a 40 (has anyone pointed that out?), and the number in the small square on his other lapel could be a 41. The Dutch theme definitely goes with NYC. I wonder what
new
insights could come of considering this picture as referring to NYC?
Incidentally, the X in that same box looks very much like a Roman numeral X.
forest_blight
In support of NYC is a possible 73 on the right side of his hair. NYC is at 74 W. longitude, but is quite large. Looking for a 40/41 (for NYC's latitude), the weird number thingy in the flower could easily be a 40 (has anyone pointed that out?), and the number in the small square on his other lapel could be a 41. The Dutch theme definitely goes with NYC. I wonder what new insights could come of considering this picture as referring to NYC?
Incidentally, the X in that same box looks very much like a Roman numeral X.
Pine_Tree
Good job Forest.
Pine
TheLurker
Uncanny resemblance! Very close.
johann
Some ideas pointing to Vancouver:
--ruffled collar of the white shirt and the neck inside, upside down: British Columbia Province
--Captain George Vancouver descended from the Dutch Van Couverdens
www.direct.ca/news/cdutch/dutch01
although the area is not conspicuously Dutch in its immigration history
--upside down arch in collar: Lumberman's Arch in Stanley Park (near zoo and aquarium),
although it doesn't look a thing like the arch in the image
www.vancouverhistory.ca/chronology1952
--black and gold checks: nearby Black Gold Lodge, a fishing lodge?
drewsmith
The early story suggests that the Dutch picture will tie to the Catskills. Would "Wildcat Creek" be the place that "no lion fears"?
Drew
wilhouse
that verse won't get you there.
wilhouse
________________________________
Byron Preiss, you will not be forgotten
drewsmith
wilhouse wrote::
that verse won't get you there.
wilhouse
________________________________
Byron Preiss, you will not be forgotten
Oops, I forgot that that was the Houston verse!
Drew
boogieman
I can see, when you flip the image left, the gazelle, if you wish, with a foot in its mouth. There's also a DC in there.
Not trying to confuse, it's just that the ankle, heel and even toes on the foot look so prominant to me.
just in case:
hxxp://www.freewebs.com/boogieman13/page2.htm
johann
The character in this pic always did remind me of Shylock from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, and the Folger Shakespeare Library is in DC. (Perhaps the gazelle is really a donkey--Bottom in Midsummer Night's Dream.)
There is a chance I could be in DC for a couple days in late December.
boogieman
hxxp://www.inspirationline.com/images/s ... castle.jpg
Johann, Notice the circular window to the left. Maybe the flower in image9? Trying to link Smithsonian with this pic is gonna be tough.
johann
Thanks, Boogieman. This could be significant. Now if we could come up with a verse for this pic . . .
boogieman
Hate to say this, really, but there is a painting of Edwin Forrest at the Smithsonian. Hope it aint it. It's from him portraying "Shylock".
hxxp://www.npg.si.edu/exh/brady/gallery/34gal.html
Hey, think the collar on the Shylock in p9 resembles something that George Washington may have worn. Looks familiar but can't find anything on it.
johann
Nice find, Boogieman.
Pine_Tree
Just for kicks, look again at the upper square emblem on the cloak. Imagine you were painting this, and trying to get some clever information in, but not being too obvious.
The rune on the left is a reversed "4". The rune on the right could be a couple of things. It's a European "1", but it's an American "7". Reversing the 4 keeps things from being too obviously numerical, and makes it fit nicely (almost a mirror-image) with the other.
Read it left-to-right and you get 41. Read it right-to-left and you get 74.
NYC
I think the dog-leg is either utterly irrelevant (it happens) or is the last physical confirmer once you're standing near the site.
Pine
forest_blight
I think the numbers in the flower and the X can be interpreted in a number of ways. But if we regard them as latitudes, on their own the first could be 70, 76, 40, or 46, and the second could be 47, 41, 17, or 74. But since they are in the same picture, they should be read as adjacent latitudes - either 40/41 or 46/47 (probably the latter pair). Other pictures contain latitudes and encapsulate the casque on a map. For example, P1 contains 37/38 and 122/123, entirely capturing San Francisco. P2 contains 79/80 and 33 (Charleston), P4 contains 41/42 and 81 (Cleveland), etc. There are other examples.
fox
If this turns out to be the P for a possible Philly V...take a look at the strange patterns around the collar. Could they be this?
forest_blight
I'm not seeing it, fox. Here is a satellite image of the same thing:
fox
ah, from above it looks more uniformed (unlike the collar) than it did from my angle. I just saw the odd lines and the colors were similar. oh well, back to the drawing board.
Trohn
Having a flair for the obvious,
and knowing the author was
from New York -
the picture is a guy playing chess
and waiting for his opponent
to move.
Outfit confirms this activity.
..next witness...
fox
How do you Know this? I think that is a huge stretch. the outfit confirms what? I must really be missing something here
forest_blight
Trohn - it is not obvious to me at all why think this image has to do with chess. There is a checker pattern, yes, but it could mean any number of things. Why chess? Why not Purina? And if it does signify chess, why New York? Chess is played in other places too. The image is after the style of a generic portrait; I see no indication that he is waiting for a chess partner to move.
Trohn
As Edison once remarked- I only have to be right once.
Anyways, I will try and quell my normal scatter gun approach
and resolve to be more scientific. Thanks as always for the
devils advocacy... much appreciated.
That said... I want pair Image 9 with Verse 2.
"At this place where jewels abound"
In the verse, this is the only general reference to location
everything thing else seems to be burial directions and
activity desciotions... so I was thinking... where are jewels.
I have readed that the Jewerly Box gardens have been
explored.... so the other place to find abundant jewels...
a crown! Which matches our image as having the jewel on
the head covering (dare I describe it as a beret for a Frenchman)
I know this was suppose to be dutch...
So where in America are there crowns with jewels... The Triple Crown
horse races... K Derby, Pimlico, and Belmint. They are parks
and they have fountains. And the horse pin on the image ties right iin.
Trohn
to continue...
The other pin with the X... someone will have to confirm this
because my book hasn't arrived and I am working with a grainy
version.... is there a 'L' an 'E' and an 'X' super imposed on top
of each other here..?
Also, going back to the hands... the nright hand is protruding three fingers
for the three races AND using the children''s song which has already been
described.. "Here is the church... here is the Steeple" The Kentucky
Derby, the first jewel in the Triple Crown, is located in Lexington at
Churchhill Downs and the Grandstand is known as the Steeple.
Trohn
to continue my approach for the verse tie in...
At the place where jewels abound...
All of the winners of the past Kentucky Derbies are on display
The following would be directions to the exact spot
which I would imagine is outside the grandstand and possibly
in a parking lot section (which is numbers and rowed)
"Fifteen rows down to the ground
In the middle of twenty one
From end to end
Only three stand watch"
That last reference would describe three lawn jockies who
were situated and facing the place to dig. Probably locating them
would help with triangulating their gazes onto one area..
The rest of the verse confirms this race track...
Trohn
and continueing...
"As the sounds of friends
Fills the afternoon hours"
Thorough bred racing esp. the
weekends such as the triple crown
races occur in the afternoon.
(Think Wringley Field befoe the lights)
"Here is a soverign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!"
The palace and head usage makes one
initally think of a crown which starts the who thought
process and makes you tie the verse into the image.
The soverign people are the horse hands, the trainers
and the jockeys who all move from track to track
to following the circuit of when the tracks open and close.
They are a family like a circus is a family. Nomad by design.
They build their barns for not only housing the horses,
but also themselves at night. They generally sleep right next
to their horses.
I don't know if you can call a single horse in a herd a head,
but that is normal practice for other cattle.
Trohn
And the piece d' resistance...
"Gnomes admire
Fays delight
The namesakes meeting
Near this site"
Both gnomes and fairies live in and around
grasses and lowlands...but their
namesakes meeting means to combine
both names to make a new one...
gnomes... small, miniature,dwarfllike
in France this suffix would be -et or
for English -ette
so combine that with Fay...
Fayette which is the county that
Lexington resides.
Now to go to Churchhill Downs website and try
to make the checker pattern....
comments?
Thanks for listening.
Trohn
Its in freakin' Louisville... not Lexington
where does that leave me??
*grr*
boogieman
Tee hee hee... Trohn, I can't help but laugh, but I do feel your pain. I think everyone has been there at some point. I like your thinking though, keep trying.
fox
Intersting ideas Trohn, but once again, you seem to be all over the place. It was just yesterday that you were convinced our gnome was a chess player. I think you are trying tooooo hard to force ideas to fit.
Trohn
Keep me grounded...
My wife, who liked the Church Song idea, performed it
and I noticed a difference between the typical version
and our images version. In the children's gesture, there is
only one prominent steeple and the rest of the fingers
are flat and interlocked.
In the image, the normal two fingers, ring fingers I think,
make the steeple, but the middle finger of the right hand
is not flat andninterlaced, it is bent upwards making an arch.
Could this be a two spire indication?
I am not trying to stretch but just analyze the image.
As the Churchhill Downs siite saids, the grandstands were
built using a simple architecture technique which is now
know for the place. The two spires.
Here is my stretch... please bear with me...
Here is a crop of a fairly famous photo from the
track... is this our model?
Trohn
Gnomes and jockeys.... Perfect together
Trohn
Can someone with a critics eye...
tell me what is impressed in the upper
right eighth of the image.
To the right of his right ear/side of head
and up to just before the top edge.
The white outlined impression starts
exactly one quarter of an inch from
the top and ends exactly two inches from
the top and it spreads over the right edge
of the page.
I see a roof of a building. Tell me I am crazy,
I've heard it before.
Tron
Trohn
HOLY CRAP
LOOK AT THIS!
The button of the animal leg cropped
and turned upside down!
forest_blight
Unknown:
tell me what is impressed in the upper
right eighth of the image
Search me, but looking there with a fresh eye, I see what may be a faint, white "4":
As for the cropped / turned button, what are we supposed to see?
Trohn
Open up the image and look at it 200% - 400%.
Trohn
A black jockey on a white horse.
Trohn
Additionally:
The triple crown is comprised of three legs (the three jewels):
Kentucky Derby, Churchilll Downs, First Leg, 1 mile and 1/4 = 10 furlongs
Pimlico, Maryland, Second Leg, 1 mile and 1/8 = 9 furlongs
Belmont, Long Island, 1 mile and 1/2 = 12 furlongs
Horse Racing is referred to as The Sport of Kings (just so expensive)
boogieman
If you cpould match up any part of this image(9) with a map or outline of Kentucky, or even Louiville for that matter, you'd really be on to something. I tried, couldn,t find anything.
anash27
Hi there!
New here.
Just read the whole of this thread...great read.
I just took a look at Forest Park on Google Earth. The lake near to the golf course and (what I think is) the Jewel Box looks a lot like the shape of the mouth and nose of the Picture.
The corresponding "eyes" have funny trails off of them like the picture but are not close together like the pic.
Just a newbie...don't shoot me down...LOL
Trohn
Bogieman-
I saw no map.
Did Houston image have a map?
johann
anash27--
Interesting find. The golf courses have been greatly redone since BP buried the casques. I have worked with this image and St. Louis extensively, but alas, I am stumped.
Trohn
The hat worn in the photo seems to be
a Hounds Ivy Beret Cabbie Hat -
no pointed top, no brim, no tassel.
And the right hand side emphasizes a crushed
worn style.
This is a common European style with
versions in London, France, Spain.
boogieman
Trohn, take a look at this site I posted on image12.
hxxp://www.freewebs.com/patcash/pics.htm
Northern NJ looks like the shape of the liberty hair when she's upside down. Some time ago, it was posted here that the part of this hat that looks
crushed
may be an outline or part of a map. Not everyone agrees with my image12 obsevation, but I see it clearly.
forest_blight
Unknown:
The hat worn in the photo seems to be
a Hounds Ivy Beret Cabbie Hat -
no pointed top, no brim, no tassel.
Trohn - It looks like nothing of the sort to me. Think late 15th / early 16th century European (French / Italian). It looks like something Columbus would have worn:
hxxp://www.northernelectric.ca/medieval/hats/hats.htm
hxxp://www.northernelectric.ca/medieval/hats/hatpix/raphae14.jpg
Trohn
I see the following head wear.
It is warn straight, not slanted.
Trohn
BoogieMan-
I can not help but see NJ coast all over
Image 12.
I see no maps on Image 9.
I see at least four images of horses.
My book came in the mail this morning
so I will be able to get a new perspective.
fox
The image of the cap you posted is that of a english driving cap. That is nothing like what our gnome is wearing.
Your scattershot ideas are confusing even me.
Trohn
Fox-
sorry if my ideas are not coming across here as
clear as I want .
This is the man in the drawing. This is a characture of
him, probably tens years past when image nine character
is based on. On the day represented by image nine,
he did indeed wear black and gold. The man is french.
There is no map in imae nine.
Check out though the 'x' pin. Turn it sideways, each way.
One way you get a black seven. The other way you get
a white seven, written backwards.
Trohn
continued...
The man is Jean Cruguet.
Verse two gets you to the burial spot.
The photo simply tells you what was there
in 1982.
If anyone is in Kentucky and wants to verify this,
let me know. I am in PA and it will be a seven hour drive.
Fox- tell me if you found any long and lats in this image
to dispute my location.
Trohn
Here is a more contemporary comparison.
Besides the style of outfit change and the poetic
license on the hair to make it look more 'horse-like'
this is our man.
The photo is not pointing to the burial site,
thats for the verse. Barn and stall number.
(In the middle of twenty one)
Trohn
*link image and then post*
*slap*
Trohn
A photo graph from a jockey trading card.
As a note on location, Churchill Downs has under gone
minor renovations in the 1990's and major renovations
over the past two years.
Also, in 1992 they bought up near by FairGrounds Park
and added it to their acreagae.
Also, over the past two years a horse virus has been plagueing
the industry and some horses and barns have been
purposely destroyed to halt the deadly outbreak - including at
Churchill Downs.
fox
One reason I am not too keen on the idea of Kentucky being a casque locale is this, which of course could be all wrong.
It is an ongoing belief that all of the casques will be located in port cities.....and of course, KY is..for lack of better words...landlocked. I may have to eat crow later but I really dont think so.
Trohn
I noticed the running trend of Port Cities, but I
didn't see anything that officiated that.
I did note the other less obvious trend of the site
contains a fountain, which Churchhill Downs defintiely
does.
With the addition of the Fair Grounds Plot to the
1982 layout of Churchill Downs, its boundaries were changed.
I have found a potential map piece but it defintiely isn't
any state that I can tell. Two sides do match up with the
street boundaries of CD, but not the other two. I am looking for
a 1982 layout of the grounds to try and match up while I plan
my trip and make my Kentucky contacts.
The double 77 which I could only see by looking at the book
version sealed the deal for me.
The map piece I am investigating is the left upper collar piece
with the gold right jagged border to the left two straight borders
Trohn
I now have a detailed ground map.
(All be it, from 2005)
I can confirm I have found no map
and the log/lat = 86,38 which I can not
find in the image.
But I do have an exact digging spot
to try out. The map matches the verse.
(as far as I can tell from here)
Jean Cruguet only won the Kentucky Derby
once.
forest_blight
Trohn - there is thinking outside the box, which I applaud because it can inject new ideas and bring us all closer to a solution. Then there is thinking across the street, down the hill, and five states away from the box, which... well, I've done it too so I won't throw stones. Ya never know.
Let's play games with numbers.
I revisited the issue of what numbers could potentially be extracted from this image. Keep in mind that not all numbers necessarily represent latitudes and longitudes (e.g., the possible street address in Image 1). But let's go with it. Bear with me.
The number in the flower could be:
40, 46, 70, 76
The number in the X could be:
47, 74
The numbers in the hair could be:
5, 39, 73
The numbers near the top right could be:
4, 11, 114
(Earlier I said the X number could be 17 or 41, but I don't think so anymore).
Longitudes that fall within the contiguous 48 states / Canada include (roughly):
67 W, 125 W
25 N, 49 N
...so that rules out 4, 5, and 11 as geographical coordinates, leaving all possible combinations of 39, 40, 46, 47, 70, 73, 74, 76, 114.
39 N
40 N
46 N
47 N
70 W
73 W
74 W
76 W
114 W
All 20 possible coordinate pairs are:
(39,70) (39,73) (39,74) (39,76) (39,114)
(40,70) (40,73) (40,74) (40,76) (40,114)
(46,70) (46,73) (46,74) (46,76) (46,114)
(47,70) (47,73) (47,74) (47,76) (47,114)
Some quadrants can be eliminated as falling squarely in the ocean, leaving:
(39,74) (39,76) (39,114)
(40,73) (40,74) (40,76) (40,114)
(46,70) (46,73) (46,74) (46,76) (46,114)
(47,70) (47,73) (47,74) (47,76) (47,114)
More can be eliminated because the same glyph can't represent two different latitudes/longitudes at once:
(39,74) (39,76) (39,114)
(40,73) (40,74) (40,114)
(46,73) (46,74) (46,114)
(47,70) (47,73) (47,76) (47,114)
Judging by locations we've managed to identify with high confidence in other images, the latitudes and longitudes are not exact; rather, they form boundaries for quadrants. Thus, "46" without any other information could signify anything between 45 N and 47 N, etc. So
without any other information
, each coordinate pair could signify something in a 4-quadrant area. (39,70), for example, could represent a location within the square formed by (38,69), (38,71), (40,69), and (40,71). Given these "rules," the remaining quadrants refer to these areas:
(39,74)
Southern NJ, Atlantic City
(39,76)
Baltimore, Philadelphia, part of Washington DC, the entire state of Delaware
(39,114)
Middle of nowhere, Utah / Nevada
(40,73)
New York City, Long Island
(40,74)
New York City, Long Island, most of New Jersey
(40,114)
Middle of nowhere, Utah / Nevada
(46,73)
Montreal
(46,74)
Montreal
(46,114)
Middle of nowhere, Idaho / Montana
(47,70)
Northern Maine,
maybe
a corner of Quebec City
(47,73)
Middle of nowhere, Quebec
(47,76)
Middle of nowhere, Quebec
(47,114)
Middle of nowhere, Idaho / Montana
Removing the "Middle of nowhere" areas leaves:
(39,74)
Southern NJ, Atlantic City
(39,76)
Baltimore, Philadelphia, part of Washington DC, the entire state of Delaware
(40,73)
New York City, Long Island
(40,74)
New York City, Long Island, most of New Jersey
(46,73)
Montreal
(46,74)
Montreal
(47,70)
Northern Maine,
maybe
a corner of Quebec City
Something to chew on. We might also note the absence of Kentucky from this list. Something else to remember is that this is the Dutch image. We'd need to find
some
connection between the Dutch and our casque's location. NYC fits (old New York was once New Amsterdam; why they changed it, I can't say), but what about Baltimore, Philadelphia, Montreal, and Quebec?
Trohn
Yes, I did step back and reevulate
from a clean slate and I COULD NOT
eliminate this object from any final
answer. Once this is accepted,
it controls the answer.
There have only been two (three)
objects found, there is nothing to
assert that the puzzles are designed
and solved in identical methods.
In fact, I would argue that he would
devise more than one method for the
overall process.
See picture.... and then look at the book.
After I have relooked at the solved images,
all clues could be ascertained without the
aid of a magnifiying glass or imaging. One would
just need to turn the book to the proper
orientation and in the proper frame of mind.
Go back and see this image in the book from a distance
of four to five feet.
The proof is only digging it up.
Trohn
Image of animal leg button
rotated.
boogieman
First off, FB, brilliant deductions. Second, Trohn, I have
some
doubts about all the casques and methods to finding them, but, I haven't any proof that they don't work either. To be outside the box is the way to go. Just don't fall down the rabbit hole with no way out. But I'm rooting for you. BTW, your last post, the pic's to fuzzy to see.
edit: Here's one of my observations which I had posted some time ago, to go with FB's deductions somewhat.
hxxp://www.freewebs.com/patcash/image9.htm
click to enlarge
Trohn
Not to be funny,
but look at your photo,
yes very clear,
but only look INSIDE
THE BOX.
Tron.
p.s. the image even has the
black stirrups under the saddle.
boogieman
You gotta help me with this. I can't twist my eyes to see a horse or a saddle, never mind stirrups. Which way is your horse facing?
Egbert
forest_blight wrote::
(46,114)
Middle of nowhere, Idaho / Montana
There was a guy in my dormitory in law school who was from Middle of Nowhere, Montana.
Very nice work, Forest. My money is on NYC and 39, 73. Those numbers in the hair are there for a reason.
Trohn
Lets see if this works....
boogieman
Nope! I'm trying to see a horse.....
What I'd like to see is Egbert's 73. I see 39.
boogieman
I see it, yet there is so much more in that section of hair to assume that there is only a 73. Just below the 73, at the same angle that you posted FB, is a 25, and a few other things that are open to interpretation.
Egbert
Oh yes, I agree that there are other things in the hair. We will not know which ones refer to latitude and longitude until the treasure is found. Some could actually mean nothing --- just red herrings. For example, Image 2 has several numbers in it. Also, Image 4 has entire years, only the last 2 digits of which were relevant. Also, the numbers could have other meanings (highway numbers, etc.).
forest_blight
In Image 2 I've spotted 32, 33, 79, and 80 in the lion's mane, which happen to be the four latitudes/longitudes that capture Charleston. In Image 4 I think the 14 is meant to be read backward (41), the 42 foreward, the 18 backward (81) and the 81 forward. 41, 42, and 81 are three of the expected latitudes/longitudes for Cleveland. I can't explain why 81 is in there twice or why there's no 82. I believe the backwards-number thing was also used in Image 7.
Trohn
(sigh)
There have been eleven horses to win the Triple Crown.
This has been the same as in 1982.
Seattle Slew won it in 1977. (see 'X' button)
Secretariat won it in 1973.
They happened to stay in the same barn in
Churchill Downs.
Secretariat did not have a French jockey.
Trohn
And it just happened to be twenty five years
between triple crowns before Secretariat.
(Citation 1948)
I do not know where he stayed during
Derby week.
boogieman
OK, so img9 has no definite long and lats. We will find them when we find what Trohn's horse is (big stretch right now), the square with the p and 7 (?) in it, the flower, design of clothes, along with the collar and neck line. Really, for the most part,except trohn's work, the rest of us are at square one. FB, to pick your brain a little, the square w/the P and 7, looks to me like an intersection. Main highway crossed with a residential or rural road. P=parkway 7=exit #. Maybe?
forest_blight
Unknown:
FB, to pick your brain a little, the square w/the P and 7, looks to me like an intersection. Main highway crossed with a residential or rural road. P=parkway 7=exit #. Maybe?
It is the Roman numeral "X" for October (the calendula and opal go with this theme as well). Honestly, I think that is the only significance of the X shape. The P and 7 I think are a 7 and a backwards 4, although the 4 could be (as you say) a P. I think there is nothing else of significance in that square.
Now for the square below it. I think the horse idea is just plain incorrect. I've turned it around, squinted, etc. and it just doesn't look anything like a horse or jockey to me. Sorry, it just doesn't. I firmly believe this is another rebus like the "Mill + Walk + Key" one, and that we just haven't hit upon the correct answer yet. One of these days, we will.
Trohn
And the photo of Jean?
forest_blight
I also fail to see the resemblance between Jean Cruguet and our gnome.
boogieman
Meaningless, maybe, but there is a symbol for the X inside a square.
hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/275.html
This is the reason I began thinking "intersection". The symbol means STATION. Although the context of that page refers to station as meaning
stanading still
, with the thicker line of the x crossing the thinner line, it occurred to me that it could possibly be an intersection like I described above. This may be the clue for a street name for this puzzle. The site also indicates that the symbol could be used for time,
month
to be more specific, with, like you said, the x meaning October.
Trohn
OR A BARN DOOR!!
(as I have held secret)
Trohn
I like this image as the way I use it
for simultaneous purposes:
but note that besides the top and bottom lines,
the middle section is of two different colors one white
and one black. a forward 7 and a backward 7.
similar to:
boogieman
Unknown:
But when I cut and paste the quote out of my email into this board, this is what happens:
"after 22 Years all I can say is l
I'd like to bring up a quote from Wilhouse from May 04'. Edit: from the "Huge Discovery" thread.
I was reading up on things about BP and found this thread. This is another symbol used by BP, like I think he used it in most of the images. Again, think outside the box when reading this.
hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/10/101.html
"When placed between other signs, (symbol) has a demarcating and dividing meaning. In logic, A and B can mean either A or B, not both."
Since he posted nothing on either side of this symbol in his email to you Wilhouse, maybe he was saying, the verse and pic are indeed
one
, unity.
This maybe his way of telling us about the use of symbols.
Trohn
Yes,
for the Houston Zoo solve,
that is a totem pole.
boogieman
What is a totem pole, the symbol?
Trohn
Yes.
A graphically simplified representation.
boogieman
Then, it may very well mean a
graphically simplified representation
of BP giving us the finger. No, I think it was his way of introducing symbols to the hunt.
boogieman
Com'n, nobody thought that was funny? Tron? The finger. Geez
fox
boogieman wrote::
Meaningless, maybe, but there is a symbol for the X inside a square.
hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/275.html
In alchemy and old chemistry was one of the time signs and stood for month. think you hit the nail on the head with that one. X month = 10 month... = October. Gotta side with FB here. The X
IS
the month, plain and simple. I also believe he makes a good point about the rebus style picture.
Yes, only time will tell....but I think we will find this casque in a well known port city.
anash27
Just thinking out the box a bit. That block shaped part in the square with the cloven hoof I thought looked a bit like a fountain coming out the top and cascading down the sides. Staying with the St. Louis theme I found the Kiener Plaza fountain/waterfall
Any thoughts?
Adrian
Trohn
Any thoughts,
yes,
why was there EVER a link to st louis?
Who besides me has identified the man in the image?
Find the man, find the casque.
As in the Chicago find, find the building, find the casque.
As in the Cleveland find, find the monument, find the casque.
As in the Houston find, find the animals, find the casque.
Think inside the image.
johann
I might be the perpetrator of the St. Louis idea, unless someone else had the idea before me.
Trohn
It should not be who came of with it,
but WHY?
Image is Everything
forest_blight
Playing With Numbers, Part II
Based on a little longitude/latitude analysis, I had earlier (March 8 ) settled on Baltimore, New York, and Montreal as likely locations for the Image 9 casque. Possibly Quebec, Atlantic City, or some less urban spot around one of these places. But let's go with Baltimore for the sake of argument since that hasn't been seriously considered yet. There is much in its favor. Consider:
1.
As Egbert has pointed out in the past, the five major U.S. arrival ports in the 19th and 20th centuries were New York, Boston,
Baltimore
, Philadelphia, and New Orleans.
2.
Both Fox and I have pointed out that Baltimore lies in the
(39,76)
lat./long. grid, and two of the numbers in Image 9 could be interpreted as 39 (hair) and 76 (flower).
3.
Now, we KNOW Image 9 is the "Dutch" picture, so what does Baltimore have to do with the Dutch? Perhaps as much as Image 4 had to do with the Greeks - that is, not very much, unless the burial spot has something to do with Dutch immigration or culture. I don't know much about Maryland.
4.
There is the checker pattern in Image 9, which appears on Maryland's flag.
5.
The inverted collar might be the outline of a famous domed building in Baltimore, like City Hall or some other well-known edifice.
There ya' go folks. Maybe someone can find something useful in these musings. Just keep in mind that the casque may be buried in some rural spot - doesn't have to be in a big city, but is probably historically important for some reason (like Roanoke or St. Augustine).
boogieman
Interesting flag. Not only checkered, but x'ed as well.
hxxp://www.freewebs.com/patcash/image9.htm
Could the big C in the hair to the left stand for Calvert?
hxxp://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/m ... /flag.html
johann
Trohn--
I think my St. Louis idea is somewhere on this thread. Of course, I now seriously question it.
fox
forest_blight wrote::
Playing With Numbers, Part II
3.
Now, we KNOW Image 9 is the "Dutch" picture, so what does Baltimore have to do with the Dutch? Perhaps as much as Image 4 had to do with the Greeks - that is, not very much, unless the burial spot has something to do with Dutch immigration or culture. I don't know much about Maryland.
Wow, really like those. Now, how bout something like this. P4 was the Greek/Hellas theme. Now, there really isnt a large greek population in Cleveland but the casque was found in the Greek Cultural Garden.
Therefore; maybe there isnt a large dutch contingency in Baltimore but maybe we should be looking for something more like:
hxxp://cityguide.aol.com/baltimore/bars ... yer=venues
Sure that isnt the right thing but just the idea I am trying to convey.
anash27
OK...OK...I'll get off the St. Louis train...LOL
Found a page of (maybe) useful old images of Baltimore parks...enjoy!!!
hxxp://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyJOPRxFEnUwADbxWBQx./SIG=1218bn4f9/EXP=1142069519/**http%3a//www.mdhs.org/library/Z24BaltParks.html
EDIT: I love picking up the batton on these things....How about: (checking on Google Earth (with parks layer turned on)) The shape of the small lake in Druid Hill Park is almost identical to the outline of the guys neck and collar...
Hmmmmm may be on to something now...
Adrian
Trohn
So, playing along, is this the flower in the photo?
Trohn
Does the month in other solves come intomplay?
forest_blight
The flower is a calendula, or common marigold. It's the birthflower of October (which goes with the "X," which goes with the opal, which goes with the Dutch).
To my knowledge the month / birthstone / birthflower theme is completely irrelevant to the solves, except for that mention of "wonderstone's hearth" in V8. Maybe someone can correct me on that.
And wow, anash - I wasn't aware of the parks layer in Google Earth. As if Google Earth weren't useful enough already! I use it every day.
fox - that's what talkin' 'bout! Keep those gears churning.
anash27
OH NO!!!
I just had a flash of a thought and I can't get it out my head now. So I'm gonna give it to everyone else too...
Someone a lot further up this discussion mentioned the guys right hand in the same pose at the Statue of liberty...To go with that I thought all the chequered patterns may relate to New York taxi cabs.....(or did I read that further up too??)
I know I shouldn't but I can't keep these brainwaves in anymore...LOL
Adrian
Trohn
Just trying to help the Maryland arguement
with the Balck Eyed Susie...state flower
another Gold and Black flower.
I didn't think the month had much to
do with the solve. Just ckecking.
Most if not all NY cabs are solid yellow.
Checkered is the name of the people who
run them. And that being said, not really
a unique thing to NY.
Now if we qanted to talk about gypsie
cabs and the Lincoln monument...... (jk)
anash27
Sorry me again.....The NY thing has really got me going again...
How about that black shape next to the cloven hoof again...
Checkered....taxi...NY....and a gap between the hulls at the bottom...I know I must stop this
Adrian
boogieman
I don't think that water taxi was around in 82'.
fox
and if it was around in '82, he would have been just a weee lad.
fox
Ok FB...playing w/ our rebus theory and came up w/ a huuuuuuuuuge stretch but here goes any ways.
*balti - Definition: a type of one-pot cooking from northern Pakistan involving very spicy dishes served in wide metal pans and served with nan (naan) bread
Etymology: balti `cooking bucket'
cooking bucket =
(notice the nice round handles..is this our ?unknown image? in the square)?
*mor - abbr. Morocco Moroccan.
morocco - A soft fine leather of goatskin tanned with sumac, used for book bindings and shoes.
goatskin =
head & leg.
BALTI MOR
fox
forest_blight wrote::
Trohn - It looks like nothing of the sort to me. Think late 15th / early 16th century European (French / Italian). It looks like something Columbus would have worn:
hxxp://www.northernelectric.ca/medieval/hats/hats.htm
hxxp://www.northernelectric.ca/medieval/hats/hatpix/raphae14.jpg
hxxp://www.baltimore.to/Columbus/
Trohn
Just poking around the mind of Byron.
Found this interesting.....
fox
Thought I would bump good old P9 up for other ideas:
So, what does this P have? An odd looking man in a strange collar, a possible "76" in the flower, an odd horse/goat/? head and hoofed foot, hands in the shape of what many have called a church's steeple. So...
Why can't this P go w/ our Boston V?
- collar similar to those worn in the 1700's
- 76 as in 1776
- horse & hoof for the Midnight Ride
- steeple famous for the hanging of the lanterns
for a huge stretch.... getting back to the horse's head. I always thought that the whole head looked odd, especially the ears. What if an important image of the area was incorporated into the head? Something like this...
just some more food for thought.......
Trohn
The jewel in the hat = crown.
Also, keep in mind, the overall theme
to this image is a portrait or head shot.
Trohn
Fox-
Not that I don't like a good debate,
so..
how do the checkered boards link to Boston?
fox
Trohn wrote::
The jewel in the hat = crown.
Couldnt have said it better trohn. What lead to the revolution.....crazy old King George III
i chose this photo because he is older and as he aged he fattened up. also, look at his collar. King George III was always lampooned in the papers and this may (note the use of may) be a caricature
ie..
caricature - defined as: A representation, especially pictorial or literary, in which the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic or grotesque effect.
As i stated before tho, I am not by any means saying this is a definite...just more fodder. Still swaying between this and P3 being our Boston. (adding a nice tie in to George III on P3 thread when I'm done here hehehehehe
)
Trohn
"Shovel, shovel, shovel"
Has to be around here somewhere....
such a small world.
fox
How about this possibility? Trinity Church in Copely Square:
fox
to go along with the checkerboard pattern of the church in Copley Square....check out the roofline of the red bldg (2nd one down at URL)
hxxp://www.mit.edu/~georg/web_photos/copley/
Trohn
I think you are digging...
and in not the way that moves dirt...
This image is the most simple of all of them.
I agree he is dressed like a king - in silk.
I agree he is sitting for a portrait - head shot.
I do not see the connection to Paul Revere's ride,
but glad to see you see a horse.
fox
Digging? I think these tie ins are much more concrete than Churchill Downs... the checkerboard pattern especially. But, to each their own. Keep working on your theory, I'll keep working on mine, others will keep working on theirs. That is what we need to solve the next one.
Trohn
The hands, the hands....
The negro jockey.....
the place were jewels abound....
ABC this Saturday, 5:00pm...
Trohn
A timer behind the running horse.
forest_blight
I will point out again that the latitudes / longitudes 46--73--74 form boundaries for Montreal, where I will happen to be spending a few days next month. If anyone can brainstorm with Montreal in mind, perhaps we can come up with something for me to take pictures of while I am there.
Trohn
I do not know if some are forcing numbers
or others are forcing numbers not to be there,
but I do not see the numbers. I only see hair.
Why would there be two longitutdes?
What boundary indicates the 'four'?
forest_blight
Trohn - there do not have to be two longitudes, but it makes sense to look for them. Take Image 2 for example. The lion's mane contains the numbers 32, 33, 79, and 80. These are the four latitude / longitude "hours" that encapsulate Charleston, which we know to be the site of that image's casque from the map on the mask face. The Houston image is another good example. The frustrating thing about Image 9 is that there are numbers everywhere, and they can be read in multiple ways. But since (a) 73 and 74 are contiguous numbers and (b) I'll be in Montreal anyway, I thought I would ask.
There is no boundary that indicates the 'four' (I'm not sure what you mean by that). Rather, 'four' as part of
46
and
74
might
form a latitude or longitude bounding Montreal. This is not that big a stretch, since there is confirming evidence that many of the numbers we've spotted represent latitudes and longitudes (thanks fox!), and there is a casque in Canada.
ravel07
I live in Montreal and I can check out anything that seems worth exploring.
boogieman
Note the
horses
leg here. (Sorry Trohn)
Art Museum of St Loius.
Trohn
I would be happy for someone to prove me incorrect.
Please, show and tell.
Two points:
- yes, it is a horse, but note the style of rider
(military with legs extended - versus- tucked up at the
horses neck - race style)
- this image has a decidely lack of location clues
(a portrait of our gnome in silk) No overt buildings
or geographical references.
To me this saids, the city is less important than the
site. (ie.. The Vatican is more famous than where it is
located - Vatican City)
Why a portrait? Any answers?
spinner
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2919.0
Check out my compliation here if you want. What do you guys think?
Trohn
The jewel is in the
middle of the crown (hat of the king).
(the first jewel in fact)
How does the lamp post
(in the middle of twenty one - U)
relate to this jewel postion.
Figure this out, and you are that much closer.
St Louis is a good possibility.
Trohn
As noted in the Image 11, Trinity Church thread,
I suspect that we should be looking for something
along these lines here.....
hxxp://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/1b951a/
Not that I am suggesting Boston for this one,
I am suggesting a casque-site linking factor.
(Can St Louis accomodate?)
CMSCHUT
Trohn ,
I only want to say that the area the horse is standing on is a U shaped patio looking out over the great basin. The 2 statues on either side of the door to the art museum are named ... SCIENCE & ART... namesakes meeting at this site . I ventured down there on Monday to find some gnomes and Fays. I taled to the man at the Jewel box and asked him how old the urns outside the jewelbox were , they had fairiies on them . He said they came from the original jewel box in 1936. I explained I was on a scavenger hunt and he suggested to look at the art museum inside . It also made me think of the part wher they rest their heads for a night . There are Busts in the art museum. Also there are fairies on the muny walls outside , sorry no gnomes . Carol
Trohn
I found these two thing while messing around -
don't know where to go with them - but thought it
may help someone.
The first one is for form, the second, style.
hxxp://www.satin-moon.com/fabric/fttcm2781-bk.html
hxxp://www.satin-moon.com/patterns/scholar.html
hxxp://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/b/images/b ... ort.lg.jpg
ravel07
I came across this while walking in downtown Montreal:
To me, it looks a lot like the "dogleg" in image 9. Maybe this is a common ornament on old buildings? I think we should look for a similar fixture on a building in St. Louis or wherever we think the treasure might be.
forest_blight
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
O Happy Day!
bclews
Wow! Nice find!
Can you tell us more about where it is? What it is? Do you have a wider view?
ravel07
It's located at the bottom of a lamppost in front of an old house which was probably built in the mid 1800s. There were 3 such ornaments around the lamppost. I think the building houses some kind of historical society, but I'm not sure. I'll go check it out after work, and I'll try to find out what architect or firm designed it.
forest_blight
Take lots of pictures! And be sure to record the street address.
From the one you supplied, it seems as if the curved rail (?) may appear as the blob in P9.
ravel07
I'm not sure I'll be able to take pictures today, and I'm leaving the country tomorrow for a week... but I'll post more pictures as soon as I can.
wilhouse
I actually screamed when I saw that photo. If it's not the same thing it is an unreal coiincidence.
we need to find out who makes it.
wilhouse
adoks53
I think it's a design after the painting "saint george and the dragon", if that helps anybody out (just a guess though)
forest_blight
wilhouse - I didn't scream, but I did just about fall on the floor! This is a most significant find. Even if the P9 casque doesn't turn out to be in Montreal, at least we know what kinds of places to look for the "dogleg" thingy now. It's a literal representation of something physical, not a rebus or some other trick.
wilhouse
did I mention that it's so ugly it's beautiful?
wilhouse
Jambone
OMG! Brilliant, ravel07! I hope nobody minds me posting a side-by-side comparison (it's just too nice not to):
forest_blight
I don't know what it is, trohn, but I get chills just looking at it.
If only I were still in Montreal... Where were you in mid-June, ravel07?!
I'll kick myself if I walked right by it without noticing. Grrr.
stercox
WOW!!
I got goose bumps when I looked on the board tonight. This is really a significant find! Nice eyes--Ravel!!
Pictures...pictures..pictures...we need more pictures!
Sorry I can't contain my excitement.
forest_blight
So much for St. Louis, eh?
But then, Verse 2 is still a really good match for St. Louis. So... if V2 is St. Louis and P9 is Montreal, then we're left (a) wondering what P goes with St. Louis, (b) wondering what V goes with Montreal, and (c) one too many casque sites.
stercox
Unknown:
It's located at the bottom of a lamppost in front of an old house which was probably built in the mid 1800s. There were 3 such ornaments around the lamppost. I think the building houses some kind of historical society, but I'm not sure. I'll go check it out after work, and I'll try to find out what architect or firm designed it.
Yeah...It shakes it up a bit, doesn't it? But its been a long while for something this solid to come up. Something that really doesn't allow much interpretation of the find. A true non-speculative lead--Life is good. Research and digging will tell us in time--more information about this area is imperative, there has to be other things that link in.
I found it interesting that Ravel said there were
three
of these beauties at the lamp post--when we have been looking at lampposts with three things on it for a while. If we could know the area of Montreal where this was found--we could start really looking at it and find that verse. Ravel does have a point--first we need to find out if this lamp post is unique or there are others out there. It is possible that our suspected P's and V's pairings are still intact.
forest_blight
Indeed, but V2 matches St. Louis SO WELL. All of the following have tight connections with Forest Park in St. Louis:
At the place where jewels abound
...
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
Only three stand watch
...
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
...and we have apparent confirmation from BP himself that there is a casque in St. Louis. If there is indeed a casque in St. Louis, I'll eat my hat if V2 doesn't point to it.
fox
WOW
I would say that is the EXACT match...not just similar. The question now being (as everyone else has attested to) is this "thing" found anywhere else besides Montreal?......say....perhaps in S.L.? If not, and if this "thing" only resides in Montreal....than I would say P9 MUST be in Montreal.
Lets research this thing to death guys.
Great find Ravel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
niteowl9
Looks like the lamppost is a dead ringer for the picture. Great find ravel07....
It also looks to me like the outline of the river west of Montreal matches the outline
on the top right of the hat.
hxxp://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&ie ... 5,0.384521
Anybody have a 1980's era map of Montreal that might have been used to draw the hat outline?
Trohn
As we are waiting for the "downtown" location
of the lamp post,
here is an nice page of possible matching images
of "Montreal Forum" off of Parc Royal.
hxxp://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Montrea ... dindex.htm
(opened in 1924, closed in 1996)
johann
Excellent! I have never seen anything of this sort in St. Louis. I hope this Montreal idea works out. Process of elimination, no matter how painful, will then help the hunt.
johann
Well, the longitude of Montreal is 73, and we have a 73 in the hair. What about the 45 latitude? There is a park called Square St. Louis (or Carre St. Louis), and BP did tell me "St. Louis" is a treasure site.
forest_blight
I would guess that, because the animal looks somewhat dog-like, and there are three of them... it may be a representation of Cerberus, three-headed guard-dog of the gates of hell. Why he's eating some poor ungulate's leg is beyond me.
johann - the "note" in the flower could easily be either a 45 or a 46.
wilhouse
johann wrote::
There is a park called Square St. Louis (or Carre St. Louis), and BP did tell me "St. Louis" is a treasure site.
That would be just like BP! If true, he's laughing at us from beyond
wilhouse
fox
Spent quite some time last night trying to pinpoint the lamppost by trying to locate the building behind it...to no avail. I also shot off a few emails to Montreal locations inquiring about the "thing" to see if they could both: locate it and tell us if it is somehow meaningful to Montreal. Still no word.
Where is this darn thing ! ? ! ?
Pine_Tree
Wow. I've been a bit idle on the board lately, but this is pretty exciting. I haven't really been keeping up with things, but I know there's an open question about proximity to FLO-designed parks. I was looking over the aerial views of Montreal and noticed that just west of the St. Louis neighborhood, Mount Royal Park has a path called "Chemin Olmstead". From some quick googling, it seems FLO did this park.
Stick-in-the-mud reminder: Though this is quite unusual, that's not the same thing as unique. One day we might discover one of these in Kankakee or Anchorage or something. Maybe it was a standard offering from Henry's House of Lamposts, you know?
But I still think we should pursue this Montreal link with as much energy as we can.
Pine
Jambone
I can easily see a "67" in the flower. Not saying this pic is/isn't Montreal, but Expo '67 was there. It was a big enough deal, when they were awarded a franchise in 1968, that they named their baseball team after it. Kinda bugs me that the "6" has a little 'flag' at the top. Just throwing it out there for consideration.
stercox
Unknown:
From some quick googling, it seems FLO did this park.
stercox
Sorry that didn't work, there is a nice plaque shot of this very topic on webshots under Mount Royal Park Montreal.
johann
Regarding that fountain ("blob") in Forest Park in St. Louis, I wonder if there is one of a similar design in Montreal. Perhaps the same artist?
stercox
Our man on the scene...
Hope you do locate it...the suspense is killing us!
fox
Fenix,
Once you find this thing.....take a picture of it perpendicular to it with the face looking to the right. Orient it just as P9 has it and see if anything similar to the blob happens to be behind it. The pic that Ravel posted was almost the right angle but not quite.
Good luck on your tour. Be sure to take shots of any and all innocuous things about the area as well. You never know where we may find another confirmer.
Egbert
Great find, Ravel07! I am not sure how Canadian laws work, but you may be able to get a look at the blueprints for the building at the local building department office, and it may have a "name" for what that thing is called. At the very least, you can find out the company responsible for putting it there, and if it is still around, we can contact them for more info.
I find it very amusing that we were all certain that the "dogleg" was some type of rebus since it was so unusual looking. Just another lesson for all of us, that we should never assume anything with regard to this book.
Trohn
Egbert -
as is said .... "it is a dogleg eat dogleg world"
I wonder why ravel didn't know the building or location
when he posted the photo, and then left the country
(in a hurry)
anyways, lets hope for an undisturbed, acessible and intact casque
site (for once)
CMSCHUT
I've been trying to figure out how that looks like a house in the background. Looks more like a museum or courthouse.
boogieman
Jambone wrote::
OMG is right. Of all the images not solved, this has to be the most
exact
link. But, and I don't care if it's Montreal or St. Louis, can't see this image as Montreal. With all the tie-ins you guys provided for St Louis, there has to be some connection with what Ravel07 found and Forest Park. Alas, I've been wrong before! I've been on this computer for two days trying to sort it out, to no avail.
Ravel, this is another great "punch in the face" clue. Good eyes.
johann
Is the leg-eater somewhere near the park Mont-Royal, which was designed by Olmsted?
fox
I emailed a person who has taken extensive pix of downtown Montreal inquiring about our "thing". Here is the reply I got:
-------------------------------------------------------
From : doug bull
Sent : Monday, August 14, 2006 11:50 PM
To :
[email protected]
Subject : Flickr remark
| | | Inbox
Re: downtown Montreal art
Hi Robert
I can't say I'm familiar with that gargoyle like sculpture in your picture on Flickr. It looks like it's located in Vieux Montreal.. perhaps part of the fountain next to City Hall but I can't say for sure. No water involved so kina unlikely. Sorry, if I ever come across it I'll take a picture of it and post what I find out.
Doug
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he is probably right about Vieux Montreal (meaning old montreal).... The City Hall looks to be a good candidate to me. The blocks are similar, the pillars are similar, the square bases to the pillars are similar. I just cant find a pic showing our thing. Here is Old Town City Hall
now, I did find this pic of a lovely young lady posing on the steps of City Hall. There is a very blurry lamp-post over her right shoulder, is this our thing?
fox
oops, 2nd image wont post... try this link
hxxp://www.pbase.com/phoebez/image/32198415
fox
ok, after further review of who knows how many pix of the area... I am beginning to think this isnt the right bldg.
BUT...
is it just me or does there appear to be stairs/steps leading directly under the "thing"? a possible subway entrance? jeez, I am really grasping here....
Trohn
I think if the building of the leg eater was easily
identified, ravel would have siad "here at the old city hall"
All he said was "dwntown" and with no posted images of it
on general tourist sites, it is probably at a non-descipt
location.
boogieman
I wonder where Ravel07 went when he left the country.... St louis? With a shovel? Just kidding Ravel....
boogieman
Fenix wrote::
Old Montreal and downtown are two very separate areas. Old Montreal would be the first place I would have thought of as well. Like I mentioned above, my wife thought it was City Hall at first too. It is definitely not. You can find close ups of those lamp posts.
Since Ravel mentioned downtown, I am fairly sure it is one of the old houses in the area that has been converted to a museum or something like that. You will understand the steps if I can find it and snap off a few photos. I will be headed out in the morning to try to locate this lamp post. I finally managed some time away from the office. Wish me luck all.
God, I hope the blob
is
there. Good luck lad!!!
fox
Good Luck and Godspeed young lad. Once you locate it {not "if"} see if you can inquire as to its meaning or whom the sculpture was with the current resident/owner of the property.
ps...find us our blob darn it
Egbert
FYI, I have sent out about 20 emails to iron/metal railing manufacturers/distributors, and even the association to which they belong, seeing if anyone can identify it. I have received about 8 replies, none of which could identify it (although 2 said they could duplicate it!).
My 2 cents are that the casque is not in Montreal (we have too many other cities identified as possible treasure holders), and that this railing ornament is not unique. If we could identify the name of the piece, or the manufacturer, we would be able to trace it to other locations in the U.S. Alternatively, even if we cannot identify it, the people that live in or near St.Louis or NYC should make an effort to go for walks throughout the neighborhoods near the parks in those cities where we think the casques may be. NYC may be a problem because it is so large, but you St.Louis people should go get some exercise pronto!
fox
I dont know if we should discount Montreal all together tho. The first step is to obviously find this thing there since we KNOW of one there and then try to research its origins. We know there is a Canadian casque so I think we should atleast leave this door ajar...but, my gut also says that this may be one of our US casques.
So....as Egg suggested:
CMSCHUT
Have camera will travel. Just let me know what area you need looked at in particular. I have been beveral times to Forest Park and have yet to see anything like this , but will keep looking. Carol
Trohn
The first picture of the virtual tour
has a stained glass image that looks
similar(not exact) to our image 12... weird.
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/visi ... lle_en.htm
boogieman
Wow! Is that a boob hanging out?
Trohn
I believe, and I am an expert on such things,
that that is a fan.
Jambone
FWIW, until Fenix uploads his pics, here's a picture of the front of the Mount Stephen Club that includes our lamppost (bottom right).
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/99164368/1102539452045983124mFiZjM
fox
I believe Boogie is referring to the part above said fan, which appears to me to be an appendage clad in an undershirt.
Now, back to business. The image is indeed similar to our P, especially the holding of the flower..dont many pix like this show the flower holding tho????? Doing the 360 tour outside of the building shows that there just isnt much grass around, save for 1 small square of dirt in the sidewalk.
Check out the map of the area:
hxxp://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q= ... 42915&om=1
Closest by are both Dorchester Sq (which I had looked into before this known location) & Place du Canada. However; just down the street is our favorite Parc Mount Royal.
could the offset "blob" represent the way the blocks of the bldg are? hmm, maybe not, there are no rounded areas as shown in "blob"
Thanks for pinpointing our thing Fenix!
fox
this is interesting...
"Amenities:
The Mount Stephen Club is open for lunch from 12:00 to 15:00H and for dinner from 18:00 to 21:00H. The Sunday [glow=red,2,300]Musical [/glow] Brunch is a not-to-be-missed event."
www.iacworldwide.com/display_club.cfm?club_id=84
there is our musical note in the P.
johann
Egbert--
Yes, indeed, it is time for some serious footwork here in St. Louis (as in Montreal, too!).
boogieman
Fenix wrote::
A quick wiki link to the architect, William Tutin Thomas, who designed the house.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thomas_(architect)
Everything this guy made is either in Canada or England. Way back when, I tried linking Sir isaac Brock to image3. Interesting that this guy designed his monument by Niagara.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Brocks+monument
boogieman
Here's your guy.
hxxp://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ ... RTA0007966
forest_blight
Great photos, Fenix - thank you for posting them. Is it your understanding that the lamps are original to the house, or could they have been moved to their current pedestals from some other location?
(and if so... what was their former location?!)
Trohn
Any thoughts on why the hoof (in the image)
extends beyod the boundries of the box?
Nothing on the lamp post suggests this detAIL.
Pine_Tree
'cause it's bigger than the box....
sixer
how exciting for you all with this new finding--
I may be naive in posting this-- as Im not as nearly invloved in the hunt as you all are--but it could be possible that verse 2 fits with this.
if the lamp post and 'dogleg' base are unique to the house, the image 9 may be just pointing to the house itself as the starting point.
at the place where jewels abound------ they are wealthy quests,-Im sure they wear some jewelry
fifteen rows down to the ground--- are there 15 steps down from the house-- looks like there could be from the pictures-- 3 sets of five.
in the middle of 21.
from end to end---------- are there 21 stone bases?-- I think the lamp post sits on one.-- but from the pictures, they could go all the way around the house???
only three stand watch--- this would be the 'doglegs' -- 3 of them.
as the sound of friends
fills the afternoon hours---- it is a club
here is a sovereign people
who build palaces to shelter
their heads for a night!---------- it was a mansion
gnomes admire
fays delight
the namesakes meeting (club now- but named after the stephens.
near this site---- right in front between the 21 stone bases?????
that is if there are 21--- I don't see any trees, were there trees at one time? and that is if there are 15 steps.
but it seems like it could fit.
good luck
sixer
fox
not a bad idea at all sixer. I am really beginning to think Montreal is the site for this P. Find another set and I may reconsider
, but until then..... this is a historic place on the registry.
In my opinion, we can not just sweep this find under the rug and search elsewhere......search elsewhere??, sure...but we need to also focus on this site.
I always thought our leg-eaters were bigger
fox
ooops...also, Fenix, did you have your book with you while talking with the folks inside? You should ask them if the "blob" looks like anything to them. If this is the right place, someone around there must know what it is...
fox
sounds like WTT pretty much stuck around in Canada...
hxxp://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ ... RTA0007966
niteowl9
sixer wrote::
I may be naive in posting this-- as Im not as nearly invloved in the hunt as you all are--but it could be possible that verse 2 fits with this.
I like this line of thought sixer.
Judging from
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/fr/h ... entree.jpg
there are indeed 10 more steps up in addition to the 5 at the street.
I would quibble about the 3 standing watch since there are 2 lamps and a total of 6 legs.
The old photos show a vastly different surrounding than at present. One would hope
we can find a 1980's photo of the location. Is the club in the middle of the block, and
were there really 21 stone posts along the street? That would really clinch this.
Some other possible connections:
Gnomes admire / Fays delight == Gold. The club is in the middle of the Gold Square Mile.
There's a Rue Bullion further north too. No obvious streets with jewel names though.
Palaces to shelter their heads for a night == fancy hotels.
niteowl9
And, Image 9 is covered with Gold Squares....
bigmattyh
I've been looking in the picture for other confirmers that this could possibly be Montreal. I wonder if this is a subtle hint:
That's St. Joseph's Oratory, a pretty big landmark in Montreal. You can see the dome from all sorts of places, like the Mont Royal Park.
I wonder -- is it possible to see the dome from the Mount Stephen Club?
The club to the oratory
I dunno. Does this possibility have legs? Doglegs even?
anash27
Would you believe it? On google Earth there's a huge great cloud over the area of Rue Drummond....DOH!
Ade
Trohn
Can we move one of lamp posts to the Hoston City Zoo
and kill two birds with one pole?
sixer
niteowl9 wrote--
I would quibble about the 3 standing watch since there are 2 lamps and a total of 6 legs
maybe the 3 standing watch are the 3 peaks to mount royal and the 'legs' just gave you the house as the starting point then.
sixer
Trohn
With other images, there was a significant clue that
would lead one to the city (site) of the casque:
Milwaukee
Chicago
Charlestown
And once there, in the proper perspective,
the more detailed sections of the image would
be matched up.
This leg eater at this Montreal location is a secondary
confirmer within the image. There is no apparent path
to get you to Montreal to this spot using the details of this
image.
(With that said, I do believe that Montreal is a very likely
casque location)
Can another version of this lamp be elsewhere within Montreal?
(Is it the architect who selects this detail, or someother city planner?)
Egbert
Fenix wrote::
There is no way this leg-eater is unique to Montreal. We have to be able to find other instances of these somewhere. I have been trying to think along the lines of renaissance furniture. Lamps, table or chair legs, even andirons. If we can track one down, find a name for it, and date it then we may have a simpler time locating others.
While I agree with the St Louis crew going out and pounding the pavement, I am sure this will be much simpler if a few of us hit the web hard.
As I said, I sent emails out to lots of metal/iron railing manufacturers/distributors --- none of which have been able to identify it so far. However, RAILING companies are probably the wrong ones to contact. We should send it to metal/iron LAMPPOST manufacturers distributors. I do not have time to do this right now, so if anyone else wants to do it, please be my guest. Just send them a picture of it, and ask them for any information they can give us. You can probably find a whole list of companies using Google, and there is probably an overall metal lamppost organization too.
bclews
Perhaps the 3 standing watch are the 3 on the lamppost on the right, since they are overlooking a nice grassy area near the wall.
Also, I found this photo. It's a long shot, but I'll post it anyway.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/217632824/
fox
Hotel Lord Berri? I am lost.
Last night I sent a couple of emails out to lamp post ppl in the area and am awaiting reply. Will let you know what they say...
CMSCHUT
Fox,
Look at the windows in the pic bclews posted .Took me a few times to see it , but it's the outline of what we took as the JEWEL BOX in forest park. I get it now .
Bclews, Is this hotel Berri in the area of the Club ? Same street ?
sixer
I agree that the leg eater should be a secondary confirmer--- and maybe it is.
the hidden numbers give the longitude and latitude of Montreal--- and there are gold squares. maybe these are the significant clues to give the site and then the leg eater would give the house.
Its just neat that verse 2 can fit with this house.
at the place---from the house, go 15 steps down to the ground and in the middle of 21-- there it is.
FeniX, are there 21 of something(the stone bases or something else)-- in front of the house?
and the rest of the verse just confirms the house location.
sixer
CMSCHUT
What are the coords of Montreal ?
bclews
CMSCHUT wrote::
Bclews, Is this hotel Berri in the area of the Club ? Same street ?
It's in the same part of Montreal, but it is probably too far away to be considered.
AnotherDoth
CMSCHUT wrote::
What are the coords of Montreal ?
Montreal is between 73 and 74 and between 45 and 46
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/9_Map
AnotherDoth
CMSCHUT
Another Doth , Thanks.
I was going through the virtual tour of the club and I was actually tring to find a picture on the wall that may resemble our image , no luck . I did spot a nice flower ceiling in the laurentine room . Afew fireplaces and ceilings I thought may be our BLOB.
CMSCHUT
Fenix ,
Is this club near Carre St. Louis ?
Egbert
AnotherDoth wrote::
Montreal is between 73 and 74 and between 45 and 46
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/9_Map
AnotherDoth
I assume you changed the Wiki to read that Image 9 in now linked to Canada, and that Montreal is the site of the Image 9 treasure. Those are some very bold statements, and I think half of us seem to think that it is not in Montreal.
fox
I have seen countless articles and websites referring to this area as
The Square Mile
but not as the Gold Sq Mile.
niteowl9
Fenix wrote::
The club is in the middle of the Gold Square Mile.
My wife nor I have ever heard of the Gold Square Mile. She has lived here her entire life.
So, you're going to believe her over wikipedia? :-)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Square_Mile
Regarding the possibility of other legeaters, from what I read about this house, it
sounds like it was a one-of-a-kind deal built for a really rich homeowner. I'd say he would
have easily been able to comission the lamps just for this house, so I would guess this is a
unique feature of this house.
Regarding the 'blocky blob' outline in image 9, is it possible this is a crude floor plan of the house? The
rounded corners in the image could roughly match the rounded parts of the left side of the house.
What does the right side of the house look like?
And looking again at the 15 steps, it looks like there are only 4 steps on the bottom right section, but
there are 5 on the bottom left, so maybe just the left lamppost is the '3 standing watch'? Where could
you stand to see only the left legeaters? There seems to be a grassy area to the left of the lamps too,
and maybe more steps from the house? Can't really tell from the images I have.
CMSCHUT
Egbert,
I would be with the half that hopes it is not in Montreal. All I can do as of now is look things up in ole St. Louie here on the web . I'm down with a nasty cold but will go out next Tues. to look at possibilities. Let me know . The landing at the arch, the old courthouse , union station . the streets where the old Checkerdome resided ?
Fenix , Thanks .
stercox
I love it that every one is so energized by this great find! There's alot on the board over the last day or two regarding the "leg eaters" connection with P9 and still looking at V2 to match up. P9 connects, V2 may not. Let's keep in mind that if Montreal is our place--we don't have a solidly connected verse that fits this location. Any verse but 4 and 12 are possibilities. Its key to not try to force a solution, keep an open mind. The way I see it, we need to do 2 things:
(1) Answer the question about the uniqueness of this lamppost and whether and where others exist.
(2) Explore the area in a broader sense for other visual confirmers with P9 or verse leads (to any of our verses).
If we examine the Chicago solve, some of the visual clues were "en route" to the dig site that was some distance away--the same may apply here. That's my two cents, take it for what its worth.
johann
Alongside Forest Park, on Lindell Blvd., there is a row of beautiful old homes. Perhaps one of them has a leg-eater banister.
forest_blight
I think it is critical to discover when the lamps were placed in front of the Club in Montreal. There must be a record of it somewhere. Even if they were put there in 1980, they could have been taken from elsewhere - maybe saved from an endangered site, as was our 3-lion lamp in St. Louis. This is going to take a lot of digging.
forest_blight
Ah - I missed that, sorry. But if you visit here:
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/lamaison_en.htm
...and click on "Exterior," The top picture shows what appears to be a tall lamp with its base on the sidewalk, yet the pictures below it show our leg-eaters in the expected places. Of the lower photographs, the left one shows the rounded room to have walls comprised mostly of glass, whereas the others show the walls to be masonry. I reasoned that at some time in the past, the facade was renovated and the older lamps replaced. What am I misunderstanding?
fox
forest_blight wrote::
This is going to take a lot of digging.
In more ways than one my friend.....more ways than one
Egbert
Here is the only remotely positive info that I have received regarding the legeaters:
So you know the owner, builder, the architect, the year it was built, the
location of the building etc etc and now you are trying to find out who made
and who designed the lights?
They could have been a one off custom commission designed by the architect
or others or they might have been available through any number of decorative
metal foundries open at the time of construction.
Respectfully,
Doug Bracken
President
Wiemann Ironworks
2620 E 11th St
Tulsa, OK 74104
USA
918-592-1700 EXT.12
918-592-2385 Fax
918-740-0960 Cell
www.wiemanniron.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Egbert 5 [mailto:
[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 4:03 PM
To:
[email protected]
Subject: RE: Railing ornament
Thank you for your help. Here are two additional links, which you will need
to "copy" and "paste" into your browser in order to get to them:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/11924414@N00/
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/lamaison_en.htm
The second link is where this lamp post is located. If you click on
"Exterior," and then the middle picture, you will see it.
This is actually part of a 25-year old treasure hunt, in which the
interesting design of the lamp post actually appears in one of the clues.
Attached to my first email is the lamp post designed placed next to the
clue. So, we are trying to find out as much information as possible, since
we believe the treasure is hidden in the U.S. (not Canada). So, any help
you can give in this regard would be greatly appreciated by many hunters!
---Egbert
>From: "Douglas Bracken"
>To: "'Egbert 5'"
>Subject: RE: Railing ornament
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:44:43 -0500
>
>Egbert,
>I could use a few more photos, the detail looks vaguely familiar.
>It will not be a 'stock' item from anyone I know. If you want to
>reproduce...it will be custom foundry work.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Doug Bracken
>President
>Wiemann Ironworks
>2620 E 11th St
>Tulsa, OK 74104
>USA
>918-592-1700 EXT.12
>918-592-2385 Fax
>918-740-0960 Cell
>
www.wiemanniron.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Egbert 5 [mailto:
[email protected]]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:15 AM
>To:
[email protected]
>Subject: Railing ornament
>
>Greetings,
>
>I was wondering if you would be able to identify the attached railing
>ornament (name, architect, where they can be found, etc.). This one is
>located somewhere in Montreal, but I believe there may be others in the
>United States. Thank you in advance for your time.
>
>---Egbert
>
>
Egbert
Here is the only remotely positive info that I have received regarding the legeaters:
So you know the owner, builder, the
architect
, the year it was built, the
location of the building etc etc and now you are trying to find out who made
and who designed the lights?
They could have been a one off custom commission designed by the
architect
or others or they might have been available through any number of decorative
metal foundries open at the time of construction.
Respectfully,
Doug Bracken
President
Wiemann Ironworks
2620 E 11th St
Tulsa, OK 74104
USA
918-592-1700 EXT.12
918-592-2385 Fax
918-740-0960 Cell
www.wiemanniron.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Egbert 5 [mailto:
[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 4:03 PM
To:
[email protected]
Subject: RE: Railing ornament
Thank you for your help. Here are two additional links, which you will need
to "copy" and "paste" into your browser in order to get to them:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/11924414@N00/
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/lamaison_en.htm
The second link is where this lamp post is located. If you click on
"Exterior," and then the middle picture, you will see it.
This is actually part of a 25-year old treasure hunt, in which the
interesting design of the lamp post actually appears in one of the clues.
Attached to my first email is the lamp post designed placed next to the
clue. So, we are trying to find out as much information as possible, since
we believe the treasure is hidden in the U.S. (not Canada). So, any help
you can give in this regard would be greatly appreciated by many hunters!
---Egbert
>From: "Douglas Bracken"
>To: "'Egbert 5'"
>Subject: RE: Railing ornament
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:44:43 -0500
>
>Egbert,
>I could use a few more photos, the detail looks vaguely familiar.
>It will not be a 'stock' item from anyone I know. If you want to
>reproduce...it will be custom foundry work.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Doug Bracken
>President
>Wiemann Ironworks
>2620 E 11th St
>Tulsa, OK 74104
>USA
>918-592-1700 EXT.12
>918-592-2385 Fax
>918-740-0960 Cell
>
www.wiemanniron.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Egbert 5 [mailto:
[email protected]]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:15 AM
>To:
[email protected]
>Subject: Railing ornament
>
>Greetings,
>
>I was wondering if you would be able to identify the attached railing
>ornament (name,
architect
, where they can be found, etc.). This one is
>located somewhere in Montreal, but I believe there may be others in the
>United States. Thank you in advance for your time.
>
>---Egbert
>
>
AnotherDoth
Egbert wrote::
I assume you changed the Wiki to read that Image 9 in now linked to Canada, and that Montreal is the site of the Image 9 treasure. Those are some very bold statements, and I think half of us seem to think that it is not in Montreal.
Egbert,
Your assumption is correct, I changed the wiki. Thank you for honoring me with boldness, though I humbly don't feel as if I deserve to be called bold. As was stated before on this forum, you can
ALSO
boldly change the wiki. Please, feel free to explain the link between image 9 and St. Louis on the wiki! Be bold! Make bold statements! As long as they lead to casques eventually, we are all bold treasure hunters!
Im my opinion, the legeater is the "killer clue" for Montreal and Image 9, just like the Grecian wall was the "killer clue" for image 4 / verse 4 ("Socrates, Pindar, Apelles"), and the Chicago water tower was the "killer clue" for image 5. However, until the casque is found (in St. Louis or in Montreal or somewhere else entirely), this is pure speculation. There is still much work to be done in identifying other landmarks in the area and determining the meaning of one of the verses. This is only my opinion, and I have been wrong before.
The legeater matches the image 9 sketch too closely to be a pure coincidence. It is either the original statue sketched by JJP or it is an exact duplicate of the real one. I have read throught the forums, and I can not follow the train of thought that leads from image 9 to St. Louis. Perhaps if you point me to relevant posts, or if you summarize the logic here, you may change my mind.
Thanks,
AnotherDoth
Egbert
I am not criticizing you at all for thinking that the treasure may be in Montreal --- because that may be true. I am simply pointing out that even though the comments found on the Wiki site for the other treasures all have question marks or "maybe"s, the comments for Image 9 indicate that Montreal is the treasure site without a doubt (at least it would appear so to anyone looking at the site for the first time). I also did not know that anyone could edit it.
sixer
hi all--
this qoute is taken from this site-
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/exterior.htm
qoute--
The fence, bordering the property, is made of a combination of stone, wrought iron and cast iron. Two bronze lampposts, converted from gas to electricity, mark the main entrance
I think the posts are original to the house--- now are they unique to it?--- I think most likely
even if we were to locate this legeater elsewhere--- we would still have to match a verse to them-- the verse 2 fits for this house.
there isn't a lot of definite clues in image 9--- only many interpretations. the legeater is the most prominent and leads us to this house (with 15 rows to the ground
)
I know Im a 'newbie' to post-- but Im not a 'newbie' to the hunt.----- I would love for you all to find another casque.
sixer
AnotherDoth
Egbert wrote::
I am not criticizing you at all for thinking that the treasure may be in Montreal --- because that may be true. I am simply pointing out that even though the comments found on the Wiki site for the other treasures all have question marks or "maybe"s, the comments for Image 9 indicate that Montreal is the treasure site without a doubt (at least it would appear so to anyone looking at the site for the first time).
Egbert wrote::
I also did not know that anyone could edit it.
Good point. I will add the word "potentially", and use question marks and "maybes".
Another good point. I thought that I had placed the same instructions at Tweleve and Q4T. Here is the "how to edit the wiki" instructions from tweleve.com. Sorry, I thought I placed this on both boards.
We are trying to compile the "best available information" on Image 3 at "The Secret" wiki. The wiki can be accessed at:
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/FrontPage#status
If you have any information, then please feel free to edit the wiki. The current wiki password is:
Code:
Select all
TWELEVE
The purpose of the wiki is to summarize what we know and what we think about the solution to "The Secret" by B. Preiss. The wiki is not a place for debate or theories. The great forums available here at Tweleve.org and Quest4Treasure are much more appropriate places for debate, conjecture and discussion.
forest_blight
Fenix - This is probably a stupid question, but... is the manufacturer not embossed in the metal of the lamppost anywhere? Heck, even manhole covers tell you who made them, in bold print! Surely a work of art like this would be signed. Any numbers or characters printed on or under our leg-eaters, or the post itself, may provide help.
sixer
Fb--
I see what you mean with the picture of the lamp post being on the ground in front of the house. I think the other lamp post on the pedestal(one with legeater) is still there though--I can barely make it out.
Fenix--even if you don't like the match---- can you look for the possibility of 21 please?
15 rows DOWN TO the ground-- from the place
it sounds like steps to me---- I will agree it doesn't have to be these steps though.
sixer
anash27
"15 rows down to the ground"
On a map of Mount Royal Park and the surrounding area I saw that if you travel along Rue Drummond past the house towards the park the road becomes "Promanade.....(something)" at it's end there seems to be steps to the intersecting road (AVENUE DES PINS OUEST). Fifteen rows maybe?
Ade
P.S. This may help too.
hxxp://www.lemontroyal.qc.ca/pdf/carte-e.pdf
CMSCHUT
johann wrote::
Alongside Forest Park, on Lindell Blvd., there is a row of beautiful old homes. Perhaps one of them has a leg-eater banister.
Johann, I'm headed there on Tues. This area is called Gaslamp Square . Hopefully I'll find the Legeater Gaslamp . Carol
fox
well, here is an old picture of the SL City Art Museum (early 1900's). There is a lamppost out front which obviously has "legs" of some sort but it is hard to tell if they are legeaters.
CMSCHUT
Fox,
Wonder where it was moved to . I'm checking out the Cabanne house . It sits near Lindell blvd and the gaslight square . Hopefully Monday or Tues. I know the Museum is closed on Mon. Any other spots anyone would like checked out before i go let me know . Carol
forest_blight
Fox - I was able to find several pictures of these lamps online. Here are two. The bases appear to be the same as those in your photo, but the bulb has changed sizes.
johann
Carol--
Go for it! Perhaps a long walk along those Lindell houses will reveal something. I need to get out that way, too.
forest_blight
Here is a detailed close-up of the lamp in front of the St. Louis Art Museum:
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/132682549/1132692995032784713FXZqmC
fox
Nice find FB...that is definitely a close up of the ones in my pic. Alas....the wrong base. I did a search on myspace.com for persons in S.L. and sent a nice long message to a photographer in S.L. What better person to inquire to than a person who travels the city taking pix on unique sights? Here is his response:
"looks similar to some works in the downtown area of St. Louis. I will run it past a friend of mine that knows very much in this.
will respond later with possible findings "
Maybe he will come thru for us. Will post as soon as he responds again....
fox
This place looks like a decent candidate for our legeater. It is called the Cupples House:
CMSCHUT
Fox,
I'm off to Lindell today. Your picture has me itching to go to now. I have no kids and time to do it the house cleaning can wait til tomorrow . I the house up and it made me think when I saw the floor plan of the house on the web site that this could be the BLOB . When we find this Dogleg eater thing we will know what the Blob is and it may just be a house such as this . Well I'm off hopefully Lindell will be good for us today. Carol
johann
Cupples House is beautiful. It is on the Saint Louis U campus. I have passed it many times (I went to grad school there), and I do not recall seeing any leg-eaters there.
CMSCHUT
I'm back from the walk . No such luck today on my Journey. I spotted a nice lightpost while driving and stopped the car loaded the meter ran back and it was a dragon. I did take a picture , but is too big to post . Fox I had no luck being able to park to see the Cupples House , all Meters full. This was the wrong time of the day. I'm hoping in the evening tomorrow to try. As Johann said though it is on the University Campus.
I did start my Journey from the Jewel box. I was standing at the colonial daughters area looking at the gates when I did notice that the concrete path in the garden comes to an arrow pointing right at those gates . I went back to the car got the map out and if you look follow through the gates on the map it does point in the direction of Lindell. As I'm driving down Lindell I have the Basillica on my left and the Arch right in front of me .
fox
question...
do we even really need to locate the legeater? this may not even be the correct P. the V we are using seems to get us right up to the Vandy Gate {which does appear in this P}. If this is the right P, are there any other confirmers from the P to the area around Vandy Gate? This P isnt packed full of visual confirmers as are most of the other P's.
CMSCHUT
Fox ,
Maybe the Legeater was there at one time and no longer is now. Just like the trees being taken down at the park from the storm a few weeks back .
fox
just another follow up idea with the Vandy Gate. I am pretty well convinced the casque site is somewhere nearby the Gate. Maybe we can reverse engineer from there to find our legeater for confirmation.
Ok, so what kind of thing would point us to the Vandy Gates? How about Vandeventer Place...."the" well to do neighborhood of S.L. in the 1800's which is right near Forest Park. Maybe a stroll or short drive thru the neighborhood is in order in case legeater resides there?
CMSCHUT
Fox,
I remember it being posted where they were at exactly before the move to Forest Park , but could you Refresh my memory or Johann. I would be glad to journey to the area. I 'm hoping it's the Lindell area I was on today or thereabouts . Carol
fox
Not familiar with S.L. myself. Google mapped the area {not sure if it is THE Vandy Place of yore} but it looks to be just NE of Forest Park near the intersection of Delmar Blvd & N Kingshighway Blvd. Only a couple blocks north of Lindell....
johann
I believe the Vandeventer area was just north of the Midtown area, in the near-north Grand Blvd. area near Midtown and Saint Louis U. The gates were on the site of what is now a vererans' hospital.
CMSCHUT
Well then I don't believe that could be a possibility that the legeater would still be there if it is the site of the Veterans Hospital. I'll check more into it tomorrow and see what I can find and maybe we'll make another trip Lindell way . Carol
sixer
hi all-
I had talked with someone at mount club stephen about the originality of the lamp posts. They said that they were original and most likely custom made for the stephens. How accurate this is-- I can't be sure-- but with all that is unique to the house-- I wouldn't think the lamp posts to be the exception.
sixer
Pine_Tree
Little bit of a brainstorm question:
What's Dutch about Montreal?
niteowl9
sixer wrote::
I had talked with someone at mount club stephen about the originality of the lamp posts. They said that they were original and most likely custom made for the stephens. How accurate this is-- I can't be sure-- but with all that is unique to the house-- I wouldn't think the lamp posts to be the exception.
I agree sixer. Its likely they are unique because the owners want to avoid a conversation like this:
Golden Square Mile Brazillionaire #1: Hey! Check out my new house. Aren't these lampposts cool!!!
Golden Square Mile Brazillionaire #2: I suppose, I've got 10 of them at my place...
So here's a question. What is the smallest feature in the solved images that was just a general hint, and not something
in the immediate vicinity of the casque? Things like the Chicago water tower are big and well known so you might
not expect to find the casque near it, but many of the smaller items in the Chicago picture were at the site, right? So
are the legeaters a well known Montreal feature? I'd say not since it took this long to identify them. If its not a general
Montreal reference then its most likely a site specific clue, and thus I would look really closely at the area around the club.
Also, the picture has lots of golden squares, but the biggest is drawn around the legeater and includes what I believe is
a drawing of a house (top view?). So I would interpret this as a house somewhere in the Golden Square Mile area with
a strong possibility of it being the club itself. Google maps have an annoying cloud over a good chunk of this area but the
club is somewhat visible and (very) roughly resembles the drawing.
sixer
its not just the legeaters and gold squares. Image 9 also holds the correct long/lat. numbers 45-46, 73-74.
sixer
bigmattyh
Okay, so the leg-eater has been found... in Montreal. I'm not quite seeing what is so compelling about this picture to connect it to St. Louis.
Isn't it about time to re-consider the image/verse pairings here?
forest_blight
There is evidence in favor of both St. Louis and Montreal. Based only on possible interpretations of parts of P9 as numbers (latitudes and longitudes), and using
no other information
, I came up with a list including Atlantic City, Baltimore, NYC, Montreal, Washington, and part of Quebec City back in March. St. Louis is supported by only one number (the 39 on his forehead). The "number" in the flower
could
be a 90, but it's not likely. Montreal, on the other hand, is supported by the 73 in his hair, the 74 in the X-box, and the number in the flower could be either 45 or 46; perhaps it is meant to be both.
In favor of St. Louis, we have the checkerboard pattern, which evokes the familiar Purina symbol. I seem to be the only one who sees St. Louis' Gateway Arch over our man's right (our left) eye. I see it as a representation of the Arch with the Mississippi flowing in front of it. Others have noted the resemblance of the neckline to rivers around St. Louis.
Complicating matters, there is a park in Montreal called Carre St. Louis.
forest_blight
Oh, and of course I forgot to mention the lamppost in Montreal!
Here's a link to a summary I put together showing the evidence in favor of linking P9 with St. Louis. Some of it is now dated in light of recent discoveries.
hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/solution_9.jpg
Be sure to "expand the picture to regular size" manually if your browser isn't set to do it automatically.
niteowl9
Pine_Tree wrote::
Little bit of a brainstorm question:
What's Dutch about Montreal?
The association of image 9 to the Dutch seems to come from earlier discussion of the verse describing
the countries of origin for the Fair Folk. The verse in question merely says 'Lowlands'. Let me suggest as
an alternative:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Lowlands.
There was apparently a big Scottish
immigrant population in Montreal:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots-Quebecer
, notably
including this guy:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ste ... nt_Stephen
And, its a stretch, but could the hat in the picture be a Glengarry hat?
forest_blight
niteowl - Pine was asking about the link between Montreal and the Dutch. P9
must
be the Dutch picture, by elimination if nothing else.
boogieman
Leaning towards agreeing with Sixer here. Leg-eater may be unique to Montreal. Plus, with Niteowls post on Wikipedia, I found the Mr Stephen built a fishing lodge in Quebec that is now a musuem/Historic Site called
Matamajaw
.. Though, as always, FB's post is just as compelling.
Asking for help with this one putting them together:
A couple of diiferent ways to look at it. Couldn't find pics of Matamjaw on the web.
edit: still looks better w/St Lou
CMSCHUT
Forest,
Thank you . If I could give you some Homemade brownies I would . Does anyone See the 90 ?
niteowl9
forest_blight wrote::
niteowl - Pine was asking about the link between Montreal and the Dutch. P9
must
be the Dutch picture, by elimination if nothing else.
In looking at the book, I'm trying to get the countries straight. The map on page 10 starts with
Scotland and Holland as 2 of the 13 Nations. Then, in the old world to new world section it again mentions
the Dutch/Lowland group migrating to the Catskills/Manhattan and the Scots going to 'a Nova Scotia'. But
then the Scots get lumped in with the Irish and the Cathay/China nation appears. So the Scots went to
the new world, but not as a separate nation?
Trohn
Niteowl-
The associated countries comes less from the map in the book
tha the litinary of the jewels which details which jewels are associated with
which areas.
Carol-
I have always had a hard time coming to grips with the numbers
in this image. I see that some things are trying to hard to look
like numbers but I am not cofident of the conclusions that are being drawn.
With that, I still think Montreal is viable, not just with this image.
(I do agree the legeater is a dead match.)
Major Items in this Image:
Theme - Portrait
Colors - Black and Gold and Roan
Shapes - Cap
Left Color
Risers around neck
Patterns- Checker Board
Clue to Location - Hands and their meaning
I am taking the other details to be secondary confirmers
for on site.
CMSCHUT
Trohn,
Thanks for your honesty . I know the 0 in the 90 is not as clear as the 9 is but it is there . I do agree with you on the Leg eater and the other point that lead to Montreal . I'm still looking for a legeater in St. Louis.
johann
Might the shirt somewhat resemble Montreal's Aldred Building?
Background
I tried to paste a picture, but I am technologically challenged. It can be seen at
www.montreal.com/tourism/topatts
johann
Spinner (or anyone)-- Do you know the name of the sculptor of the blob-thing near the Muny in Forest Park? Perhaps we can see if Montreal has a sculpture by the same artist.
bazile
Could Habitat '67 be the blob?
hxxp://www.habitat67.com/home.html
forest_blight
johann wrote::
Do you know the name of the sculptor of the blob-thing near the Muny in Forest Park? Perhaps we can see if Montreal has a sculpture by the same artist.
I believe it is Robert C. Smith, an art professor local to WUSTL:
hxxp://record.wustl.edu/archive/1995/10-26-95/7743.html
stercox
I know that Sir Eg and maybe some others have been approaching the legeater identification from the antique lamppost makers side of things. I decided to try to get to the answer from a different angle. I was doing some research into the Stephen Club and kept coming up with comments from
The History of Canadian Architecture
by Dr. Harold Kalman. He is a PhD and an expert in Canadian architecture and had written quite a lot about this building. I decided to e-mail him and ask if he knew anything about the lamps. After several correspondenses back and forth--I wish I could say that he knew them right off the bat--but alas, he did not. This is what he did say:
"Since you are where you are, you probably don't have access to my A History of Canadian Architecture. I checked the notes and see one (obscure) source that, if I remember right, addressed furnishings as well a architecture: Leo Cox, The Story of the Mount Stephen Club, Montreal: Mount Stephen Club, 1967."
This may or may not be a good lead. Does some one have a decent library loan system nearby and could we locate this book?? Forest, I knew that you
did
have this access, but I'm not sure if you
still
have it in your new Kansas digs?? I may try to get to Ohio State's Library this weekend to see if I can get a hold of this and check it for viability as a lead. Just thought I'd share this.
forest_blight
KU has excellent ILL - one of the first things I checked into. I will request it right away.
forest_blight
Would you believe our Art & Architecture library has the actual book? I will fetch it as soon as I am able.
Edit: Oops, KU has Kalman's book (which I will look into eventually). I will have to request the Cox book after all.
bclews
It's really just a booklet (about 20 pages) and was published by the Mount Stephen Club. I would bet that hunters in Montreal could probably view a copy at the club.
hxxp://www.biblio.com/books/41425062.html
The
architect
was William Tutin Thomas.
bclews
It's really just a booklet (about 20 pages) and was published by the Mount Stephen Club. I would bet that hunters in Montreal could probably view a copy at the club.
hxxp://www.biblio.com/books/41425062.html
The architect was William Tutin Thomas.
forest_blight
True, but just in case, I requested it anyway. I'll scan and post any interesting pictures.
forest_blight
Posted for Carol:
Egbert
stercox wrote::
I know that Sir Eg and maybe some others have been approaching the legeater identification from the antique lamppost makers side of things. I decided to try to get to the answer from a different angle. I was doing some research into the Stephen Club and kept coming up with comments from
The History of Canadian Architecture
by Dr. Harold Kalman. He is a PhD and an expert in Canadian architecture and had written quite a lot about this building. I decided to e-mail him and ask if he knew anything about the lamps. After several correspondenses back and forth--I wish I could say that he knew them right off the bat--but alas, he did not. This is what he did say:
"Since you are where you are, you probably don't have access to my A History of Canadian Architecture. I checked the notes and see one (obscure) source that, if I remember right, addressed furnishings as well a architecture: Leo Cox, The Story of the Mount Stephen Club, Montreal: Mount Stephen Club, 1967."
This may or may not be a good lead. Does some one have a decent library loan system nearby and could we locate this book?? Forest, I knew that you
did
have this access, but I'm not sure if you
still
have it in your new Kansas digs?? I may try to get to Ohio State's Library this weekend to see if I can get a hold of this and check it for viability as a lead. Just thought I'd share this.
Here is the latest info from someone in the architecture business (perhaps someone can try and track down the info he suggests):
I realize you have been thinking about this for some time but your best
chance in locating additional lamps of same design lie in tracking down the
vendor through the one architect/building you have found. Many historic
buildings have a well documented list of vendors for such items and of
course, many do not.
I will let you know if I come across anything similar.
Ps. It is a decorative cast iron foot or base for a lamp...while it is
impossible to know, such details could be combined with other elements to
make a foot for many other types of products, we often do this in our work.
Respectfully,
Doug Bracken
President
Wiemann Ironworks
2620 E 11th St
Tulsa, OK 74104
USA
918-592-1700 EXT.12
918-592-2385 Fax
918-740-0960 Cell
www.wiemanniron.com
CMSCHUT
FB,
Again thanks . When I stumbled on this yesterday , I was actually looking at the cross someone had mentioned a ways back , I was thinking what's going on with the Musical notes here. I then started to look at the other note in the flower and it's backwards , which leads me to believe it may not be meant to be taken as a musical note . That's when I started to really look at the Flower and found 2 & 7 or a 7 & 2 . There is a 7 next to what may be a musical note . Forest is posting the picture of the 2 for me . Carol Please all I would like to know your thoughts .
Sorry the above picture is really out there and kinda fuzzy.
I was told that that is a whole note ? Does anyone know ?
fox
Hope not to offend others but I think some are looking too hard for numbers....almost "making" them work. The numbers (lat/long) in the other pictures are very obvious.....
CMSCHUT
Fox,
None taken. I appreciate the response . I would also add that I'm posting what I find not to make it work . I haven't seen where a long/lat has been determined here as yet . I just happened on it while studying the flower and looking at the other note , which I don't believe to be a musical note now , as it is backwards . I would like your thoughts on the Music symbol I did find on the hat though . Carol
CMSCHUT
Here is the musical note . It is at Kiener Plaza behind the Old courthouse in St. Louis . I'm sure St. Louis is correct as I've gathered much on this . I will elaborate as I go so bear with me as I have a lot to share
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2797073840096202026pWshnY
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2492746350096202026WSvbMv
CMSCHUT
This is the gateway mall. Along this section I have found most of the pieces to either the P or V . Fifteen rows , the separated blocks by the streets , The streets being the rows . From end to end , it runs from the one end of the city to the end and stops at the 21st street .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553571669/2274945180096202026EqGyEw
CMSCHUT
Thadams Mark Hotel is along that same area in front of the courthouse . The insignia is the flower petals on the dress also . It is also the part of the poem
here is a sovereign people
who build Palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night !
I think this was a reference to the Hotels here along the Gateway mall
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2753000900096202026uRsZVv
CMSCHUT
Her hands are representing the courthouse .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2515171160096202026ZqRPlN
Here's it without my handiwork
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2578383520096202026YoLMWS
CMSCHUT
This is our Jewel in the dome of the old courthouse . Also what I take as the images on her face .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2155208310096202026pRQhTQ
Her's a picture of the dome without my writing on it
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2951374200096202026kUFXeW
Here's the musical note from the forehead
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553573206/2591274240096202026wHvXBM
CMSCHUT
This is a courtroom in the old courthouse . Look at the tile floors.
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553569939/2278518760096202026gVvtYo#
CMSCHUT
This is 2 floors in the old courthouse . Lower floor has our check pattern . The floor above is our Flag square on the robe . I 'll just call it flag 7.
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553572100/2693143710096202026aqXHYj
Sorry here's a better picture
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2368363420096202026VuRnqk
Could also be a tie-in to the grid work roof in the train shed at union station.
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553571646/2588027020096202026mfKHsX
CMSCHUT
This is the fountain in front of Union Station on the gateway mall. Named " The meeting of the waters " Refering to the Missouri & Mississippi rivers .
The namesakes meeting near this site .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/356000151/1356014545071305139PTKiyQ
CMSCHUT
Here's the BLOB . It's the waterfall at Kiener Plaza
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2677493410096202026AenFkl
Here's a view from above .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553573321/2871995330096202026iFTLzg
CMSCHUT
I'm getting close really. These 3 ladies Named San Fransisco , St. Louis , & New york can be seen from the fountain in front of union station. It is also above the whispering arch in the entrance way of union station. The whispering arch is what I take to mean As the sounds of friends fills the afternoon hours . Or could be union station itself.
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2296071090096202026AqbHAW#
I found this on the Whispering arch and the fountain.
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2574856440096202026qfZVZf
CMSCHUT
This next picture is where I'm standing at the last section of the Gateway mall right at 21st street looking towards the fountain in front of union station , which we could see the fountain if it weren't for those 3 trees .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2391230860096202026hFkfnl
This is the park area the end of the Gateway mall .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553571646/2243600790096202026wPcPYf
This is a hole at the park area .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2982421970096202026kEsVUE
CMSCHUT
This is a bronze sculpture in the Hotel lobby of the Adams Mark Hotel
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2026506330096202026PPtULt
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553568000/2810346920096202026SkaHRn
This is a pic from a brochure . I think the detail is much better than my picture I took .
hxxp://community.webshots.com/photo/553571669/2364044680096202026MtbOFF
CMSCHUT
I think this is what I have so far though with all this everywhere I may be forgettting to put on here what I have so far . Thanks to you Forest . I couldn't have done it without your help . It probably wouldn't have taken up all this space at once either . I haven't found the Fays and Gnomes part yet . The Jewel part either except for the piece I found and posted earlier on the fountain and the whispering arch . It did mention that union station is a Gem for it's artwork or something along those lines . Not sure if it has meaning to this or not . I want honest feedback on this . Carol
fox
speaking from experience, I kind of feel that you are forcing things in the area to fit. kind of like saying this is our "blob"
when in fact it is just another fountain found in Albuquerque, NM. the same plaza....has a checkered flooring and 2 archlike structures on the southern end.
.
The confirmers for both the Chicago find as well as the Cleveland find were EXACT! As is the legeater found in Montreal. We need to find an Exact...
CMSCHUT
Fox ,
Was there anything else you diagree with on this other than the BLOB. The Bronze Statue of the 2 horses in The Adams Mark Lobby does fit . The carvings just on the horse above the LEG when you are up close to it DO MATCH the leg eater on the dress. I apologize for the picture as it is i did try and get as good as one as I could of it . I did have reservations before going to look at it that I was on the right path. It wasn't til I was up close and looking at it that I saw the head part of our leg eater. I would like to ask if Johann or Spinner could look and give their thoughts on this . Carol
fox
ok, I kind of see the legeater on the statue but this is an exact match:
now if we can find another one of these, I will be sold. I am not saying that this P is not S.L....because I think it is...I just think we need to be careful on our confirmers or what we believe to be our confirmers. The Legeater is a good example. It is hard to consider what "appears" to be similar found in horse statue when we have the exact match elsewhere.
CMSCHUT
Fox ,
I agree on the above being the exact match and I had given up on the Jewel being in St louis until I couldn't get past the court house in the neck line of the dress . I started to look at the courthouse more and get away from the Jewel box . The jewel at the top of the courthouse really got me and the insignia at the Adams mark Hotel matching the petals on the flower . Then I saw the musical note on the flower from a google earth shot of Kiener plaza .
Trohn
In 1981/2, all of the views of the treasure site,
as representred through the images, would be
at eye level.
I am very quick to dismiss goggle and satelllite
views of things that are not backed up by
ground level similarities.
I can see a reasonableness with the courthouse,
but everything else presented would not
have been available in the early eighties.
Question on this image: What is the overall theme of the image?
Answer: Portrait.
Other images have had their overall theme lead to a general site type:
Milwaukee - Hiker/lawn bowling
Cleveland - Greek Culture/Mythology
Houston - Animal Totems/Sand
In the absence of a landmark to this image,
find the painting, find the jewel.
CMSCHUT
Trohn,
You could very well have seen these images from a room at the Adams mark or any other of the Tall buildings you could look out a window from or the top of the Arch , which is right in line with the court house and Kiener Plaza .
Trohn
Yes, but I think the Adam's Mark has a general policy
about digging holes in their carpets when you are sixty odd
stories up.
boogieman
Carol, luv your enthusiasm. Try not to get discouraged. In case you haven't noticed, this is one tuff puzzle and if you are onto something, follow through. I need a little more convincing on your theories but I'm rooting for ya. Your ideas are far better than some of the things I've posted. Don't believe me, stay tuned!
edit: trohn, pretty darn funny
frishkie
The Adam's Mark did not open until 1984; before that it was the Pierce Building. I think that the horse sculpture did not arrive until the Adam's Mark opened, but you could check with the hotel to confirm this.
If you like the court house for the neckline in the image, please also look at St. Joseph's Oratory in Montreal: www.flickr.com/photos/54008020@N00/156849609/. Bigmattyh posted this picture earlier in the month.
Frishkie
Trohn
Carol-
I came across this and it was too interesting to pass up....
hxxp://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/par ... cript.html
Read about the ALOE Park.
Keep in mind "The
namesakes meeting
, near this site"
Let me know if this fountain is remarkable.
CMSCHUT
Trohn ,
Yes This fountain sits out front of the entrance to Union Station. It is actually named "The meeting of the Waters " . It is in the park area called the Gateway mall . The Gateway mall park area ends at 21st street right there along side of union station.
The whispering arch just inside the union station entrance I thought referred to the part where it says the sounds of friends fills the afternoon hours , or it could mean all the traffic in union station. Also look at the grid work in the Train Shed . I think it resembles alot like our square that we took to be the hole 7 at forest park.
fox
A plaque on the west side of the fountain says: "This fountain, the work of Carl Milles, symbolizes the union of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers which occurs a few miles north of the City of St. Louis. These two mighty rivers in their power and beauty are represented by the two central figures. The accompanying water creatures are symbols of the many streams which contribute their riches to the major currents. The sculptures are embodiments of the freedom and primeval forge of the waterways of the Mississippi Valley in acordance with the man's age old impulse to represent the powers of nature in human or animal form. 'The Meeting of the Waters' is conceived as a festival in which all these water forces are taking part."
CMSCHUT
Frishke ,
I do also like the way the hands and the cuffs match the outline of the courthouse .
Trohn
Here is a link to some photos:
hxxp://www.art-stl.com/PublicArt.cfm?wh ... +St.+Louis
CMSCHUT
Thanks Fox.
Boogie I don't know . You all are tough , but I'm game . Keeps me on my toes . I've not given up til I can find it here or it's found in Montreal. Until I see some action in Montral I'll stay convinced it's here. Carol
CMSCHUT
Frishkie ,
You posted before that the Adams Mark didn't open til 1984. I was not sure of that and a little down on it since the Bronze Statue in the Lobby is our Leg eater . I called the sdams Mark today and spoke With Management there . I told them I was curious on the Horse Statue in the Lobby and how long it had been there . He told me since the Hotel opened in 1968. He said the Bronze statue is their Trademark for all their Hotels . I WILL get a better picture of the horse on Monday as that's when I'm headed back to find my portrait for TROHN.
fox
I agree with Fenix. Until another legeater is found in the US, I would have to say that MTL holds our legeater. There is no..similarity...there, it is an exact match. The bronze horse in STL looks similar, although the leg is bent the wrong way. We cant overlook these things.
I too am beginning to think that our "X" will also be an exact visual. Not just the crossing slats on a gate, nor the crossing planks on a lattace, etc... we can find crosses ANYWHERE. we need to find THAT cross...EXACT.
Trohn
I concur (which would jinx it)
Keep in mind when linking clues to locations,
that we know that he buried these, not just
simply opened a bank box and threw it in.
I use the concentric circle approach when I want to
investigate a likey open green space.
frishkie
Carol, we each seem to have gotten different answers from the Adam's Mark. They told me 1984 and Emporis seems to confirm this: "The Pierce Building was refurbished, given a modern facade, and an addition in 1984, reopening as the Adam's Mark Hotel"
hxxp://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=127182
. I believe that the St. Louis Adam's Mark was the first one and I'm curious whether they inherited the horse statue there and decided to make it a signature for their later hotels. Please let us know what you find out.
CMSCHUT
Frishkiie ,
I will dig further . I know it has been here since before then as I recall different people from school using it after prom and that was before 84 . I do know that the same pattern is on both sides of the horse and I did take the wrong side so the leg would match on the other side that is not turned the other way . I will get the right side on Monday . I don't see why the interest as you all have already decided it is not the horse . I'm working on it though . carol
CMSCHUT
Fenix , TROHN , & Fox ,
Thanks for keeping me correctly on the right path . I want to say that not all these are inside of buildings . The courthouse is very much outside . I think he was taking us on a little walk down the Gateway Mall and this is what was on the way before he buried the treasure . The fountain in front of the union station is outside and so is Musical note on her dress , Which I posted . It was at Kiener Plaza Behind The courthouse . The Adama mark Symbol is outside the Hotel . Etc. The only thing inside so far is the jewel I showed you and The GATE . My thoughts on the Gateway mall area It runs from end to end , ending at 21st street . All of this is in that area . Now there are 15 sections of the Gateway mall area .
CMSCHUT
I don't see why everyone was so willing to except , me included , the musical note on the flower as the Hockey team Logo when it wasn't an EXACT match and could not be seen from the Jewlel box , maybe at the time it was outside the checkerdome , but still not EXACT . The checkers on the dress are Black and Gold and the Purina Symbol is Red and White , again not EXACT . I did find an EXACT of our musical note at Kiener Plaza and the Tiles in the courthouse are an EXACT match to the dress . The other tie in to the Namessakes meeteing would be the 3 sisters facing the Fountaian outside union station . These are at the entrane way to union station named San Francisco , St. Louis , & New York. How about this for the Checkers , It is outside
hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/553671797/2312088140096202026csbfht
Now if you are looking at this you'll see the Park blocks going down . This is the Gateway Mall . It runs all the way to Union Station . There are 15 of these little PARK squares and streets in between . I believe this is the 15 rows to down to the ground. The first in front of the across from the Adams Mark is Federal .
Trohn , I did want to say that the Musical note in Kiener Plaza can bee see from the ground . You don't have to have an aerial view and I will get a picture of it to post on monday .
CMSCHUT
Here's The closest to the area i acn get til Monday when I get the right side of the horse for Fox with the foot going the right way ,. it is the exact same carving on both sides . This is just the best side because of the lighting . That's why I only took this side when I took pictures on my camera .
hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/553671797/2748180040096202026UlvedH
okie
I don't know if this is significant, but I googled "Montreal p7" (I got p7 from the X box). I got the Stewart Museum, parking lot 7, near the old fort. This museum deals with the exploration and coloniziation of Canada. It was opened in 1955. There are pictures of people dressed up as French soldiers. Their uniforms have areas of red and white checks.
I can't find many pictures of the grounds of the area, but I am still working on it.
Okie
okie
Hope I'm not repeating other posts. I've tried to read them all, but there is so much. Anyway, between Ile Notre-Dame and Ile ste Helene there is a Cosmos bridge. Cosmos are purple daisies, like the one on the left chest of the person in the picture.
Okie
forest_blight
The flower in the picture is a calendula, or common marigold. It's the birthflower of October.
Trohn
Common? Indeed...
hxxp://www.farmvet.com/store/product_li ... &cat1=1034
fox
looking at the horse pic again, I just am not convinced. It still doesnt look EXACT to me. even if the same "figure" is on both sides of the leg, the leg still would not be going the right way.....actually, you couldnt have the "figure" on the right side of the leg for perspective since it would be underneath the horse itself. The leg is also not correct...the P leg does not have it's hoof pointing up. This just doesnt do it for me.....forgive my skepticism.
For now {yes I have been proven wrong in the past} I think the most logical area would be Forest Park.
boogieman
....or Montreal. No, St louis. No, Montreal.
Trohn
Still convinced it is Lousiville.
Egbert
Egbert wrote::
Here is the latest info from someone in the architecture business (perhaps someone can try and track down the info he suggests):
I realize you have been thinking about this for some time but your best
chance in locating additional lamps of same design lie in tracking down the
vendor through the one
architect
/building you have found. Many historic
buildings have a well documented list of vendors for such items and of
course, many do not.
I will let you know if I come across anything similar.
Ps. It is a decorative cast iron foot or base for a lamp...while it is
impossible to know, such details could be combined with other elements to
make a foot for many other types of products, we often do this in our work.
Respectfully,
Doug Bracken
President
Wiemann Ironworks
2620 E 11th St
Tulsa, OK 74104
USA
918-592-1700 EXT.12
918-592-2385 Fax
918-740-0960 Cell
www.wiemanniron.com
Can anyone in the Montreal area check out the local building department, and see what you can find out about this building? You may be able to view the blueprints/plans, and it may indicate on the plans what the name of the legeater lamppost is. At the very least, it will have the name of the
architect
or builder, and we can perhaps write or call that company and ask them about the lamppost. It should not be too difficult to do this.
Let's go people! We have a major clue!
Egbert
Egbert wrote::
Here is the latest info from someone in the architecture business (perhaps someone can try and track down the info he suggests):
I realize you have been thinking about this for some time but your best
chance in locating additional lamps of same design lie in tracking down the
vendor through the one architect/building you have found. Many historic
buildings have a well documented list of vendors for such items and of
course, many do not.
I will let you know if I come across anything similar.
Ps. It is a decorative cast iron foot or base for a lamp...while it is
impossible to know, such details could be combined with other elements to
make a foot for many other types of products, we often do this in our work.
Respectfully,
Doug Bracken
President
Wiemann Ironworks
2620 E 11th St
Tulsa, OK 74104
USA
918-592-1700 EXT.12
918-592-2385 Fax
918-740-0960 Cell
www.wiemanniron.com
Can anyone in the Montreal area check out the local building department, and see what you can find out about this building? You may be able to view the blueprints/plans, and it may indicate on the plans what the name of the legeater lamppost is. At the very least, it will have the name of the architect or builder, and we can perhaps write or call that company and ask them about the lamppost. It should not be too difficult to do this.
Let's go people! We have a major clue!
CMSCHUT
Fox,
Not A problem . I am doubting the horses too. The other side the legs are standing and going the correct way , or the horse would fall , I t's the whole when the Adams Mark was there . It was another Hotel , but I can't even Get the same year From the Corporate offices, So now am startin to doubt it all. I'm still convinced though it is in this area Of the Gateway mall. Just this horse being the Legeater . For now . , Until I can get an exact year on this .
CMSCHUT
Fenix wrote::
Perhaps the arrangement of the hands is indeed sign language but possibly Quebec or French sign language......too far out?
Fenix
and I'm reaching .
forest_blight
CMSCHUT wrote::
Not A problem . I am doubting the horses too. The other side the legs are standing and going the correct way , or the horse would fall , I t's the whole when the Adams Mark was there . It was another Hotel , but I can't even Get the same year From the Corporate offices, So now am startin to doubt it all. I'm still convinced though it is in this area Of the Gateway mall. Just this horse being the Legeater . For now . , Until I can get an exact year on this .
Carol - often dates can be reconstructed fairly easily from old telephone directories. Large local libraries typically keep old phone books, sometimes stretching back several decades. You can look for the first year that Adam's Mark is listed as occupying that address.
CMSCHUT
FB,
I will look into it . The building was the Pierce Building before the Adams Mark took it over . I'll be back down there again on Monday , but more time around Union station And The gateway Mall park area . I will be at the hotel If only to find that person who told me 1968 . I think I'll put him on the 9ft horse and take him to the river . Really I think I have to bite my words on this one it's not looking good . Carol
forest_blight
Carol - found it, 1984:
hxxp://www.builtstlouis.net/opos/piercebuilding.html
frishkie
It might be helpful to research the use of the Pierce building circa 1981. Had HBE Corp. or the previous owner already turned it into a hotel before the Adam's Mark conversion? Were the horses already there in the lobby? I wouldn't write this clue off without checking that history.
CMSCHUT
FB,
Thank you . I had actually found , and gotten , dates from 1968 to 1986. I was terribly frustrated to say the least . I'm still headed down on Monday though to look further into other areas and getting better pics of the park areas along the gateway Mall .
Frishkie , When I first seen noticed the insignia for the Adams Mark Hotel in the flower on the dress , that's when I looked into the hotel . Now my thought is the same as yours it could've been a running hotel and Just not switched over yet . Talking with folks here it seems it went through a few channels , but these folks I seem to notice aren't reliable . I'm on it as soon as I can . I'll let you know .My attention for Monday is the Union Station and THE MEETING OF THE WATERS .
ALT
i feel so left behind without my puter hooked up! so out of the hunts.. Well i love going downtown & i cant wait to do some walking with you! get some free fudge samples. If we go with this verse WHERE would one dig?? This doesnt really say go here find that look down & dig around. Any ideas on what lines to use for digging??
CMSCHUT
Namesakes meeting near this site .
CMSCHUT
A thought I had on the 21 . Maybe it's not a reference to the letter U , though I would like it for Union station, But In the middle of 21 is 10 1/2. I don't know I had thought on it back at the Jewel box site being an indication between the gates or the gates and the light post .
CMSCHUT
Although no legeater in St louis after my travels yesterday I still like how the outline of the hands and arms resembles the old courthouse . I was thinking this could very well be representing the same type of buildind elsewhere .
hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/553565456/2578383520096202026YoLMWS
forest_blight
Good news for those of you who use Google Earth - the clouds have lifted from Montreal!
The Mount Stephen Club is the building just to the northwest of what Google Earth thinks is 1440 Drummond St.
There does not appear to be anywhere convenient to bury a casque for nearly three blocks in any direction.
johann
Then again, in the Chicago find, the Water Tower (featured in the image) is nowhere near the treasure site.
forest_blight
But the Water Tower is a well known landmark, something that says "Chicago" - a city confirmer, not a site confirmer. You can't look at the lamp base and think "Montreal." It just feels more like a site confirmer to me. I wonder if there has been any new construction on an adjacent lot or block where once there was a park. Anyone have 25-year-old maps of Montreal handy?
Jambone
forest_blight wrote::
Anyone have 25-year-old maps of Montreal handy?
Here's an 18-year-old map:
hxxp://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/world_cities/montreal.jpg
And here's a link to the site hosting that map:
hxxp://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/
johann
Spinner--
How is everything? Do you have any new ideas about this pic or St. Louis? I am stumped.
Trohn
Have we been able to attach a checkered pattern
to something common (or uncommon) at a site?
hxxp://www.churchilldowns.com/visit_the ... 32005.html
See the Millionaires Row photos and the common
'pattern' in front of the teller windows here.
johann
Well, you are right. Those are checkers on the floor. I am not sure what to make of it.
Trohn
The problem (with this) is I have photos of the
"new" sections of the renovated Downs.
I know that this pattern is common for the
area in front of the tellers. (both inside
and outside)
The pattern is used so dropped items (ticket/
betting stubs) are easily spotted.
I do not have a photo of the 1982 area.
(with this detail) A stepped desgin of these
checks fronting an outside betting area would
nail the location - but no photo of this (yet)
I believe the area (if I am correct) is no longer
in its historical perspective.
(Again, I wish I thought I was wrong)
Trohn
OK... here is my confirmation of "1982"
checkered pattern outside - fronting the
betting area.
This will take a bit of work for you to see
as I am unable to post photos here...
Follow this link:
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/album/65099084MOOzrm
Open up the third photo from the second row of page one.
The furthest building (from the camera) of the background is the
outdoor betting area. If you magnify that area (and review the shadowed
floor) you can see the comon checker board pattern (and it does not appear
to be green as with the modern version.
You can see the pattern clearly if you focus directly under the yellow awning
on the left.
I have a physical postcard photo of the other side of this building,
which is where the old gift shop was located. Just inside Gate 15.
If someone is able to crop and post the floor pattern of this area,
that would be great!
forest_blight
Here are some more details on the Mount Stephen Club, from an architect's point of view. What follows is from
A History of Canadian Architecture
by Harold Kalman (1994, pp. 597-598). Maybe something useful can be gleaned from it. Note that our lamp is visible in the 1903 photograph:
Lafitte
I'm going to jump in on this image. Overall it reminds me of a formal portrait of an important person. The face appears to be 2 halves. Each being from a different person. Wearing a cap.
The hands are classical and almost reverent. 39 N 76W is Washington D.C. X could be October or a part of rho chi lambda which is what the p,x, and ^ remind me of. Now I've been trying to figure out the clues for verse #10 because I thought perhaps it pertained to Armstrong Park in N.O. However after looking at this I can't help but wonder if these go together. Here is perhaps why.
1. Hard word in 3 vols. This really threw me. But... Hard words, books? 3 Vols. The Library of Congress consists of 3 buildings. Jefferson(rhapsodic man?), Adams, and Madison.
2.The face could be a combo of 2 of these and the collars go with this style.
3.The cap...Capital hill?
4.39 N 76 W D.C lat and long.
5.Perhaps the dogleg ironwork is found on the grounds.
6.Twice as many east steps as the hour or more from the middle of one branch of the v...from the middle of the Jefferson building?
Just musings here.
hxxp://www.loc.gov/loc/maps/images/map.gif
What do y'all think? Lafitte
Trohn
A jewel in the hat = crown. It is suppose to be a portrait if a 'king'.
From that, why the checkerboard(s).
fox
And they're off!....again
Lafitte
Sorry it took so long to reply Trohn... I have absolutely no idea about the checkerboerd pattern. A graphic choice? A clue?
I haven't been to D.C. in over 25 years so all of this is a guess on my part. If anyone is familiar with this area maybe my idea will spark either an A-HA moment or a no-way it isn't it response. I do remember reading that Byron thought the hunts would be over within the first year of it being out because they were so easy. Maybe we are reading far too much into it all and should pretend our brains are back in 1980 with no internet to overload them. There must be clues that are so obvious we doubt them.
I will try and look more into this but was hoping someone in D.C. would jump in! Lafitte
forest_blight
I obtained two sources on the Mount Stephen Club, but I couldn't glean much information on our lamps. The house was built in 1880-1883 at great expense. The builder employed many skilled artisans and imported much material from Europe. It is not clear whether the lamps were made expressly for the house or were imported.
From
The Story of the Mount Stephen Club
(1967) by Leo Cox... "The
architect
was W. T. Thomas, an Englishman who practiced his profession in Montreal for some thirty years and was responsible for several other outstanding residences and business buildings of the time; he also designed St. George's Church in Montreal. A prominent contemporary contractor, J. H. Hutchison, did the masonry and main construction; he also built the Queen's Hotel, Windsor Hotel, and the Board of Trade, among other structures which still exist. The rich materials, windows and furnishings were all imported from many countries; a small army of carvers and craftsmen in wood and marble were brought from Europe. Together, on the spot, they created a masterpiece of interior decoration on a lavish scale which remains largely intact today." In the late 1920s the house was remodeled as the Mouht Stephen Club, and we learn "Only the basement rooms, kitchens, facilities, and the original conservatory, have been changed and re-modelled to meet the requirements of a modern club."
From
Mansions of the Golden Square Mile, Montreal, 1850-1930
(1987) by Francois Remillard... "The plans were by William Tutin Thomas, the most fashionable Montreal
architect
of the 1870s and 1880s. No other Montreal home had as extensive exterior and interior decoration as Lord Mount Stephen House. Nevertheless, the ornamentation does not overstep the limits of good taste. Montreal greystone is a hard material and it must have been quite difficult to fashion the decorative elements which adorn the facade. Fortunately, Thomas knew stone cutting quite well as he was taught the rudiments by his uncle, John Thomas (1813-1862). The latter was an
architect
and sculptor who had been commissioned by Sir Charles Barry to execute the sculptures and other decorations which cover the British Houses of Parliament, Westminster. This explains in part why the works of Thomas generally have more richly decorated exteriors than most other Montreal buildings of their time, and also why this
architect
was so popular with affluent Montrealers who wished to display their wealth in as obvious a way as possible." Following that are several details about the interior and exterior of the house, but no mention of the lamps. There is also a larger version of the photograph from the Club's website that made me doubt the lamps had always been there, but the photo definitely includes the lamps. It appears they were there from the beginning.
forest_blight
I obtained two sources on the Mount Stephen Club, but I couldn't glean much information on our lamps. The house was built in 1880-1883 at great expense. The builder employed many skilled artisans and imported much material from Europe. It is not clear whether the lamps were made expressly for the house or were imported.
From
The Story of the Mount Stephen Club
(1967) by Leo Cox... "The architect was W. T. Thomas, an Englishman who practiced his profession in Montreal for some thirty years and was responsible for several other outstanding residences and business buildings of the time; he also designed St. George's Church in Montreal. A prominent contemporary contractor, J. H. Hutchison, did the masonry and main construction; he also built the Queen's Hotel, Windsor Hotel, and the Board of Trade, among other structures which still exist. The rich materials, windows and furnishings were all imported from many countries; a small army of carvers and craftsmen in wood and marble were brought from Europe. Together, on the spot, they created a masterpiece of interior decoration on a lavish scale which remains largely intact today." In the late 1920s the house was remodeled as the Mouht Stephen Club, and we learn "Only the basement rooms, kitchens, facilities, and the original conservatory, have been changed and re-modelled to meet the requirements of a modern club."
From
Mansions of the Golden Square Mile, Montreal, 1850-1930
(1987) by Francois Remillard... "The plans were by William Tutin Thomas, the most fashionable Montreal architect of the 1870s and 1880s. No other Montreal home had as extensive exterior and interior decoration as Lord Mount Stephen House. Nevertheless, the ornamentation does not overstep the limits of good taste. Montreal greystone is a hard material and it must have been quite difficult to fashion the decorative elements which adorn the facade. Fortunately, Thomas knew stone cutting quite well as he was taught the rudiments by his uncle, John Thomas (1813-1862). The latter was an architect and sculptor who had been commissioned by Sir Charles Barry to execute the sculptures and other decorations which cover the British Houses of Parliament, Westminster. This explains in part why the works of Thomas generally have more richly decorated exteriors than most other Montreal buildings of their time, and also why this architect was so popular with affluent Montrealers who wished to display their wealth in as obvious a way as possible." Following that are several details about the interior and exterior of the house, but no mention of the lamps. There is also a larger version of the photograph from the Club's website that made me doubt the lamps had always been there, but the photo definitely includes the lamps. It appears they were there from the beginning.
boogieman
fox wrote::
And they're off!....again
Fox, you made me double over with this one! Could almost hear the starting bells in that quote.
boogieman
Lafitte wrote::
1. Hard word in 3 vols. This really threw me. But... Hard words, books? 3 Vols. The Library of Congress consists of 3 buildings. Jefferson(rhapsodic man?), Adams, and Madison.
2.The face could be a combo of 2 of these and the collars go with this style.
3.The cap...Capital hill?
4.39 N 76 W D.C lat and long.
5.Perhaps the dogleg ironwork is found on the grounds.
6.Twice as many east steps as the hour or more from the middle of one branch of the v...from the middle of the Jefferson building?
Just musings here.
hxxp://www.loc.gov/loc/maps/images/map.gif
What do y'all think? Lafitte
Interesting... Have you thought about Indies native? It seems to me that after you find the arm that extends over the slender path, where in the summer you would hear a whirring sound with cars abound, there would be a sign nearby that speaks of Indies native although the natives still speak of him in Hard word in three volumes.
And the isle of B? Why doesn't it say the isle of b? (Baltimore?)
I can tell you this, I went to DC to see the Mets the 1st weekend in October, went to the Library of Congress one day and naturally thought about The Secret. Pretty much convinced there was a casque somewhere down there.
?? I know v12 is Chicago, but the word Congress in it would have led us first to DC, (and thanks Shadowrunner for saving us from that nightmare). Red herring by BP?
Lafitte
The Jefferson building is covered with neoclassical art, busts, sculptures, etc. Indies native I really don't know except that in the book a number of tribes are mentioned. Isle of B, or aisle of B?
Has anyone found the foundry that cast those weird legs on the lamppost yet? I've been doing some research on the internet but haven't had any luck. I did find out that the neice of George Stephen inherited some property from him. It is called Les Jardins de Metis. Didn't see any lampposts .
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Fox, you made me double over with this one! Could almost hear the starting bells in that quote.
I am waiting for someone to provide me with a more complete solve.... Hasn't happened.
(Image 9 - Verse 2)
fox
Personally, I think there have been several complete solves....unfortunately, none have proven to be correct yet.
I cant say that your solve is incorrect...it just doesnt seem to fit all of the other ideas....especially the immigrants. I still think that you are forcing things to fit. Like I am one to talk. You should have seen my early solve for V1P2 being in or very near the Four Corners Monument. You want to talk about ALL images in P and ALL lines of V being explained.....
boogieman
Trohn, If we cant laugh at ALL of this, I'll quit. And... for the record, I believe you to be better at this than me.
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Trohn, If we cant laugh at ALL of this, I'll quit. And... for the record, I believe you to be better at this than me.
Working on an almost thirty year treasure hunt where we are sure that
the proposed sites have almost surelybeen compromised and the only
verfied solutions have been lost by someone who is no longer with us
and the only people with any unverfied knowledge are bound by a deadman's
oath not to reveal anything even if it is not relevant and the only
reason we are involved is due to trechnology that wasn't even thought of when the
treasures were hidden AND the treasures are not really worth the price of finding then
and the only way we can even get involved is by buying used books from other
treasures hunters who have given up and trying to recoup some lost expenses and pride!
If we are not laughing at our lot in all of this, we must be as crazy as the people who are
watching over our shoulders and just not getting the point!
forest_blight
You have a way of putting things into perspective! Now, er um... on with the hunt!
Lafitte
I've once again read all posts. We still don't have the foundry mark, artist, or any idea of who made the lamppost base, correct?
Isle of B. Bizard isle? This is north of West Montreal. Seems in the 80's some arrondisements were created in this area. I would love to link this legeater to this area, then we could be sure this is the correct verse. I now understand why this has gone on for 20 years..... AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! Lafitte
forest_blight
Unknown:
We still don't have the foundry mark, artist, or any idea of who made the lamppost base, correct?
Right, we still don't know, and I consider this the most promising direction for research on P9. Best guess at this point is that the lamps are as old as the house itself, i.e. 1883-ish, and were either imported from Europe or made just for the Stephen House. We know that the
architect
and contractor hired skilled artisans. If an artisan made the lamps specifically for the Stephen House, the casque must be in Montreal unless the pattern was taken from elsewhere. But they also imported European decorative items, and if the lamps number among those, there is simply no telling where else we might find similar lamps.
We have someone who lives near who will check out the lamp base for foundry marks soon. Once we know, we cross our fingers and hope (a) there is some information online that could lead us in the right direction or (b) that the company still exists in some form and may have 19th century sales records. A long shot, but maybe the only shot we have.
forest_blight
Unknown:
We still don't have the foundry mark, artist, or any idea of who made the lamppost base, correct?
Right, we still don't know, and I consider this the most promising direction for research on P9. Best guess at this point is that the lamps are as old as the house itself, i.e. 1883-ish, and were either imported from Europe or made just for the Stephen House. We know that the architect and contractor hired skilled artisans. If an artisan made the lamps specifically for the Stephen House, the casque must be in Montreal unless the pattern was taken from elsewhere. But they also imported European decorative items, and if the lamps number among those, there is simply no telling where else we might find similar lamps.
We have someone who lives near who will check out the lamp base for foundry marks soon. Once we know, we cross our fingers and hope (a) there is some information online that could lead us in the right direction or (b) that the company still exists in some form and may have 19th century sales records. A long shot, but maybe the only shot we have.
Lafitte
I've contacted he Assistant Manager of the club about these lampposts. Am still waiting for details.
I was hoping that someone else had more info due to the flurry of posts previously. Oh well...we'll see what happens, I am looking forward to getting some kind of response.. I don't believe the Club is the only place these legeaters exist. Blahh blaaahh blah... lafitte
TheLurker
Check out this door knocker. I watched a documentary about Tutankhamun on DiscoveryChannel when i spotted this:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewbateman/16617374/
Maybe a door knocker like this is near the place where casque #9 is hidden?
Edit: After seeing the legeater lamppost picture on page 32 of this thread, i retract this. that lamppost base is an exact match.
Trohn
It is interesting what you find in your own backyard...
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... pic=1294.0
I knew this, of course, but didn't have this article linked.
All of the derby winners are honored with a name plaque
that adorns the buildings of CD. I wonder where this one
is/was located?
2fast4u2c
Hi all! I'm pretty new to the whole treasure hunt thing, finding this site a couple of weeks ago while looking for info on various hunts. The Secret has caught my eye and I have been looking at the images and verses a little bit. Just a few things about Image 9 possibly being the St. Louis site that I haven't found anywhere else:
Most of the discussion about the Forest Park site has been around the immediate area around The Jewelry Box as noted in #1 below. However, if you zoom out a little, cross the golf course (from end to end only three stand watch) and compare the wrinkled collar to the waterway, it looks like a match to me.
Now on to #2 from the above picture...
Several of the post on the St. Louis thread have suggested that the blob in the picture is a fountain:
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... c=2919.105
Another possibility however is the Joie De Vivre sculpture shown below:
The statue seems like a reasonable fit. look at the photo as though you are standing in the 6 o'clock position. Now imagine yourself looking at the sculpture from the 3 o'clock position. Now look at the blob. Pretty darn good resemblance? Now, I can't say for sure because I haven't found a map or photo that has given me a difinitive answer, but from what I can tell this statue is located in the bend of a dogleg created by the waterway, much like our blob is in the bend of the dogleg in image 9.
Now if you are looking at V2 as the one that goes with P9, I still don't have a good answer for the Gnomes admire Fays delight but one idea I just kind of stumbled on for the namesakes meeting at this site by doing a google search not expecting to return anything much. I did a search for Forest Park namesake and the very first link came back with a discussion about its namesake trees. Doh! Forest Park...Trees!...anyways in the satellite image, there appears to be a grouping of trees very close to where I think the statue is located. Could it be that there could be a visual clue near these trees?
St. Louis is the closest to me of all the possible sites for each of the casque. I've taken an interest in it since someone had mentioned somewhere that the author had said there was one in St. Louis.
These are just a few ideas that I had and wanted to share.
forest_blight
2fast4u2c - welcome to The Secret!
I am not convinced about the statue. The match does not seem very close to me. But you may be onto something about the waterway. That's the closest match to the collar I have yet seen. Nice job! Now if we can only find another of those darn lamps that
isn't
in Montreal...
fox
I too am not too sure about the sculpture being our blob. It just doesnt look close enough like it to me...ie, the Montreal lamp post being EXACT. I think once we find our blob, we will know for sure. Here is a little info about the sculpture just in case:
Jacques Lipchitz sculpted the Joie de Vivre or "Joy of Life" in 1927 at a time when the sculptor was changing from his early Cubist style to a more impressionist, abstract form. Considered to be an important modern sculptor, Lipchitz studied art in Paris and fled to the United States in 1941, ahead of the Nazi invasion. He was inspired to create this vibrant work by his sister's serious illness, hoping that it would help her hold on to life.
Welcome to the hunt 2fast!
fox
Looks like it is time to bump the lamppost discussion to the forefront again since I just finally received a reply from the Mt Stephen Club. Here it is in it's entirety:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Fox,
Here’s the information we retrieve from our oldest member regarding your request:
As far as I know the lamps you refer to were designed for the house, although they may have been moved
from their original position on the front exterior stairway.
Earlier photos taken by Mr. Notman at the McCord museum in Montreal, may give you an answer.
Hoping these details may help you in your search.
Marie France Filipovic
Administrative Assistant
Club Mount Stephen
1440, rue Drummond
Montréal, Qc H3G 1V9
Tél. (514) 849-7338, poste 236
Dear Sir,
I am trying to find any and all information on the beautiful lampposts outside of the club. I am referring to the ones with the gargoyle/horse style heads with a leg extending from its mouth. Was this design chosen specifically for the Club or can these be located at other locations around Montreal? I understand this is a very odd request but any and all information would be greatly apprectiated. Thank you for your time and assistance...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you have it....one of the club's oldest members "believes" the lampposts were designed specifically for the club. If this is the case then we can assume
1) Montreal IS the correct location for this V (or)
2) we have to find the designer and tie him in elsewhere.
My gut feeling says that since we were told by BP that 1 of the casques is in Canada...Montreal is where it is at.
I have since emailed the McCord Museum and will let you know what they say.
Trohn
I hope this is the case because
(1) I can find no other solid link to Canada
(2) it means we have someone local to follow up leads
(3) we can hope that a possible location hasn't been
hopelessly renovated.
When I become the oldest member of something, I hope that I
can contribute to something of this importance!!
kingwilson
Has anyone looked at pictures of Habitat '67? You can veiw these apartments from the old port in montreal, and it resembles the "blob" next to the moutheater. It's the only thing that I can find in Montreal that even resembles that image
fox
hmmm...now that may be promising.
Habitat 67
fox
H-67 is 3.07 miles from the Mt Stephen Club. Doesnt sound too far but looking at a map...
"start"=MSC --- "end"=H67
hxxp://www.mapquest.com/directions/main ... =QC&2z=H3C
bazile
Please review the following two links to images of the Trafalgar Apartments in Montreal:
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/building/Appartements-Trafalgar.php
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/1094927587045983124OCMEKd
I believe this could be a representation for the man's collar.
The apartments are located at
3980 CHEMIN DE LA COTE-DES-NEIGES, MONTRÉAL
(right next to Mont-Royal park)
and were designed by the firm Hutchison and Wood.
I was not able to find any relation between A. C. Hutchison (of Hutchison and Wood) and J. F(?). Hutchison, the contractor who worked on the Mount Stephen Club. But of course that doesn't mean there isn't one. The name itself may be enough?
There is also a Rue Hutchison on the north-east side of the park that if it extended into the park would hit the George-Etienne Cartier monument, a monument around which many people gather on Sunday afternoons to play tam-tams (drums) in the summer.
Verse 2: "As the sound of friends / Fills the afternoon hours" ??
Here is a part I'd like some help with the graphic work. I believe the land on which the Trafalgar Apartments sit, the shape bounded by Chemin de la Cote-Des-Neiges, The Boulevard, and Chemin McDougall, could be the shape of the left part of the man's inside shirt collar.
Do you think it's too much of a stretch?
-bazile
shecrab
Re: blob: It looks a little like the dome at McGill University. There's a well-known music school there, too, which would account for the note.
c
ravel07
I really doubt that the lampposts were designed specifically for the Club. Searching for "lamp post base" on Flickr, I found a bunch of pictures that resemble the one in the picture; granted, they're not exact matches, but that general design seems to be rather common.
e.g.,
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/laurie_poon/50178460/
Also, Habitat 67 is pretty far from the Club, and I'm pretty sure you can't see it from there...
Trohn
Fenix wrote::
Not to mention the house was built in the 1880's and we have photos with the posts n place before the house was bought by the investors that turned it to the club. That dates the posts to at least 1926.
I am curious what the member means when he states they may have been moved. They seem to be in the same location today as they were in the pre-1926 photo.
all that matters is what was BP's histroical perspective of the local in 1981.
2fast4u2c
There is also a Trafalgar School for Girls that is on the South East side of the park. Looks like several of the buildings share that same pattern as well.
hxxp://www.trafalgar.qc.ca/history.asp
fox
ravel07 wrote::
I really doubt that the lampposts were designed specifically for the Club.
WHY? Forgive a possible air of negativity taken but the lamppost you showed on Flikr wasnt even similar. Sure, you can find allllllllllll sorts of lampposts if you want to waste your time...possibly even something remotely similar (BUT)
we have an EXACT match...
fox
fox wrote::
I have since emailed the McCord Museum and will let you know what they say.
AS PROMISED!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Fox,
I transferred your query to our senior archivist in photography, Mrs Nora Hague (35 years in the Notman Archives), and here is her reply.
« 1 - Yes, the lamp posts were probably made exclusively for George Stephen, Lord Mount Stephen, and were probably part of the design of his sumptuous residence on Drummond, which is now the Mount Stephen Club. They are shown in their original position and style in II-135035 and II-135036, and after the addition of the iron fence with the fleurs-de-lys in II-147451 and II-147452. The posts are still there in the 1930-40 period, see VIEW-25493. The house became a club in 1926 to protect it from demolition..
2 - I have never seen that style of lamp post in any other photograph of other parts of town. Many of the Notman images show the normal style of city lamp posts, both gas and electric, and the style is far more simple (and therefore cheaper) than any custom lamp posts made for private proprietors. See MP-0000.2840, VIEW-1993.0, I-36260.1, II-99057, MP-0000.867.2, and I-10497. II-156039, VIEW-1153.0 and MP-0000.1452.29 show a different style of lamp post, and MP-0000.2906 shows a pair of more ornate lamp posts which were probably custom-made for the proprietors of the building behind them.
3 - Even with the normal city lamp posts, it was possible to have your company name lettered on the glass, as the lamp post in front of Notman's studio was so embellished in the 1890s. Quite often the lamp posts on the corners of streets had the names of the streets on the glass, see II-89274 for a good example of a city street light on the corner of Sherbrooke and Mountain. It was also possible to put your advertisment on the lamps, see N-0000.193.28.2, and II-103256.
4 - The architect of George Stephen's house was William Tutin Thomas and it was built by a well-known local contractor, J.F. Hutchison. Perhaps one of the architectural archives here in Montreal (CCA or CAC McGill) has Tutin's files, and maybe the plans for the house. »
All the numbers she is referring to are entries on our web site:
www.musee-mccord.qc.ca
About the iconography of the lamppost base, it seems to refer to the Chimaera: that mythological creature that has a lion’s head, goat’s body and dragon’s tail. I would say that the figure of the base shows an interpretation of that monster, which acquires here the role of guardian of the house.
Moreover, as there was no bronze factory in Canada in these years, the base has probably been cast in Long Island, NY.
Hope it is helpful.
Best regards.
Hélène Samson
--------------------------------------------------------------
I find this 'most' interesting. A one of a kind lamppost specific to the Club? wow. I also find her very last line interesting...relating back to a possible linking of all the puzzles together.
-
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(mythology
)
forest_blight
This is most helpful, fox. Good job!
fox
Thanks FB. I have since sent an email to the CAC as suggested in Helene's reply and once again, promise to post their reply as soon as I get it.
Is looking more and more like Montreal IS a casque location...
boogieman
I would like to propose that we now call Fox, Sir Fox!! A little premature perhaps, but awesome work!
adoks53
... also interesting in a noted sort of fashion, page 129 in the book has a chimera(sp.) as referred to the iconic critter of the lamp base by the authority that wrote the letter. just an observation. Nice work Fox!
fox
Thanks guys...looks like it is now time to sit back and wait until I hear from the CAC.
Where now tho...
Would our legeater be "the thing" in the P to get us to Montreal or is it one of those things on the path to the casque?
Jambone
IMHO, the "legeater" wouldn't be something to get us to Montreal - it's not a landmark such as the Terminal Tower in Cleveland. I would think it would be close to the casque site, similar to the columns/pillars/posts and fountain in the Greek Gardens in Cleveland. Just my $.02.
fox
I'm with you Jambone....a lamp post, no matter how famous, doesnt seem to be "the" thing that would get us to Montreal. But, what in the P does that though?
Maybe just some simple searches of just Montreal will garner hits on most famous locales of the city...
fox
Ok, I got a much quicker response from Ms. Holland, unfortunately, she was of no help at all. Here is her very brief response;
-----------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Fox,
I am sorry to report that we do not house works by this architect.
have you tried to contact the Mount Stephen Club directly? Here is the website:
www.clubmountstephen.net
.
I would also suggest to look in Notman Photos of the house, if you have not already done so.
There are alot of books about the history of the CPR and George Stephen, which may lead you to what you are looking for.
Best of luck,
Ann Marie
Ann Marie Holland
Preservation Librarian/ CAC Curator
McGill Library
McLennan Building
Rare Books Division, 4th floor
Tel.: [514]398-4707
[email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------
sounds to me like she just didnt want to put forth the effort that Helene did. oh well....back to the drawing board...
2fast4u2c
Don't know if any of this has been mentioned before. I've tried to read as much of the post here and on tweleve as possible to catch up on all of the theories.
St Joseph's Oratory and/or several of the cathedrals in the Mont Royal area could fit the dome shaped collar outline. The waterway is a close match to the white collar (right side). I think I came across something that the Bank of Montreal is famous for checkerboard marble floor?
Has there been any discussion of the shape of the mouth? Half smile, half frown.
johann
It has been proposed that the smile and frown represent Comedy and Tragedy.
niteowl9
Fenix wrote::
If you all were able to check out the sight here in MTL then you would realize the Mount Stephen Club doesn't fit for a final burial ground which is a bummer but I am not going to try to fool anyone.
Fenix, I was reviewing this thread and I wondered if you would expand on this comment? From the pictures,
it appears that there are patches of grass on both sides of the stairs and these would be possible locations
for the casque. You wouldn't need more than a few square feet. You had mentioned it would be difficult
to sneak in and bury something on the Club grounds, but I wonder if that would have been true in the 80's?
shecrab
2fast4u2c wrote::
Don't know if any of this has been mentioned before. I've tried to read as much of the post here and on tweleve as possible to catch up on all of the theories.
St Joseph's Oratory and/or several of the cathedrals in the Mont Royal area could fit the dome shaped collar outline. The waterway is a close match to the white collar (right side). I think I came across something that the Bank of Montreal is famous for checkerboard marble floor?
Has there been any discussion of the shape of the mouth? Half smile, half frown.
The Bank of Montreal does indeed have a checkerboard floor....but how many other places must also have one? I'm not loving the match on the collar either. Not to say it has to be every-square-inch exact, but it seems more off than that to me.
I do like the idea that the smile/frown is tragedy/comedy. That would suggest a theatre. Perhaps an amphitheatre, or outdoor venue?
The shape of the hat suggests it, as do the "tiers" of the collar--like bleacher seats. A stadium/concert place?
ck
regulus
ONCE AGAIN, WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO FOREST PARK??? The clues in the P seemed pretty solid to me. Except I still don't understand how "fifteen rows down to the ground" refers to the rose clock.
2fast4u2c
OK, how bout this...Square Dorchester-Place du Canada is yet another small park in Montreal. It is 2 blocks from Mount Stephen Club. It use to be called Dominion Square. In the late 1800's as part of the Montreal Winter Carnival, ice palaces were built at this location. Perhaps the line in V2 "palaces to shelter their head for a night!" refers to the temporary shelter created by these palaces and the such a structure had never been seen before thus the !
hxxp://www.victoriana.com/WinterResort/ ... rnival.htm
hxxp://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/spor ... lcarn.html
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/15615105@N00/382464850/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/15615105@N00/382464852/
And look at the view from the park:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/58811959@N00/41035785/
There appears to be several statues and monuments in the park, but I haven't been able to find good, up close pictures to examine.
Jambone
stercox wrote::
Nope. Checked it out when I got home--not the same columns at all--sorry.
FWIW, I looked at those same pics in the book a couple of weeks ago... they're at the New York County Supreme Court .
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nyc-supremecourt-60centerst.jpg
fox
wow, those ice palaces are quite impressive! but, why wouldnt BP have put more of a wintery/snowy/cold feel to the P? I too, have been trying to research Square Dorchester-Place du Canada because of its close proximity to Mt S C.
fox
looks to be quite a nose on Mr. (Sir) McDonald here.
Sir John A. Macdonald statue in the Place du Canada
another look at the real McD
fox
what the heck is that blob in the background....?......
ravel07
Wow, amazing research, Fox! Congratulations! It would be amazing if Montreal turned out to be a casque location.
I just want to mention (again) that my workplace is located two blocks the Club. I'll start bringing my digital camera to work so I can go take pictures of the area during my lunch hour. I will take special requests too!
johann
There are many Montreal photos at
www.trekearth.com/gallery/North_America ... c/Montreal
2fast4u2c
Ravel, would it be possible to get some close up pics of the statues, monuments, streetlights, etc. from Square Dorchester-Place du Canada and/or any thing that is inscribed on them? Two blocks from the club puts you 4 from the park or right at it?
boogieman
Sounds like fun! Good luck and
Merci
.
ravel07
Here are some pictures of Dorchester Square and the Mount Stephen Club:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/77675376@N00/sets/72157594560255100/
(Sorry this took so long - it was freezing cold in Montreal and I didn't want to venture outside lest my ears fall off.)
johann
The base of that lamp-post is still hard to argue against. It is exact.
boogieman
Yeah... Exact for sure. But is anyone sure what it is that is doing the eating, and what has been consumed so far, at least down to the knee? Wonderering what it actually symbolizes.
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Yeah... Exact for sure. But is anyone sure what it is that is doing the eating, and what has been consumed so far, at least down to the knee? Wonderering what it actually symbolizes.
It has been mentioned earlier that the "leg eater"
is a Chimera
hxxp://www.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~idea/chimera.html
forest_blight
I think it is simply an ornamental lion. The hoof-eating bit is odd, granted, but it resembles the kind of lion seen in renaissance art before European artists knew what lions really looked like. Not exactly many photographs to go by in those days.
Jambone
adoks53 wrote::
I think it's a design after the painting "saint george and the dragon", if that helps anybody out (just a guess though)
In addition to the Chimera, I liked adoks53's explanation:
adoks53
thanks jambone, if you go to the wikpedia under st. george, a gold half- soverign from england (about half way down the page) shows st. george slaying the dragon... take a good look at the dragon's head... i think you'll like it! comment poeeze!...
forest_blight
Sorry adoks, I don't see it. I'm sticking with my lion theory.
Even if it is a dragon and not a lion, what does it have to do with St. George?
And who rides a horse naked anyhow??
adoks53
... all I was trying to show was the dragon's head looks a lot like the leg-eater head (the gragon on the coin just hasn't bitten down yet...)... the theory being that St. George is english in origin, and the fair folk UNION JACK (pg. 166-67) reads and associates to canada (british colombia and Vancouver specifically). Why? I don't know... just wanted to throw it out to see if someone else sees what i do... guess not.
adoks53
and oh yes... Jambone, thanx for the pic... if i could only grasp this darn computer contraption...
Trohn
Just having fun... you never know...
hxxp://www.winforkids.org/About/Churchi ... 0Bookj.jpg
hxxp://www.downwardwave.com/%5Cimages%5 ... harlie.jpg
adoks53
Don't laugh Trohn, I see the spires too... and the horse coming around the turn in the foreground... but in my copy of the book, I can't tell for sure if the silks the jockey is wearing matches the silks on the cover of the book.
Trohn
adoks53 wrote::
Don't laugh Trohn, I see the spires too... and the horse coming around the turn in the foreground... but in my copy of the book, I can't tell for sure if the silks the jockey is wearing matches the silks on the cover of the book.
I only laugh because once others come around to my way of seeing this verse and image,
they'll realize that the grounds and facilities have been renovated and the site lost.
At this point, I am working my way with the other solves so that it turns into
the process of elimination.
If the twenty-one does refer to the letter U (and it then can mean a horse shoe design)
the spot may still be untainted.
adoks53
I'm still stuck in Manhattan on this clue. Manhattan is solid streets and buildings...except for a small park here and there. so... if you consider that the manhattan jewel district is "the place where jewels abound" , going to 21st st, and finding its middle, then counting down 15 rows (streets) takes you to Washington Square Park, about the only "ground" you can get to. It just seems like too strong of a coincidence to ignore. Then theres the 3 standing watch... Garibaldi, washington, and the other guy as statues...the namesakes meeting ( 2 washington statues on the arch), after all, it is his park. just seemed like too many things gelled for me.
Trohn
adoks53 wrote::
I'm still stuck in Manhattan on this clue. Manhattan is solid streets and buildings...except for a small park here and there. so... if you consider that the manhattan jewel district is "the place where jewels abound" , going to 21st st, and finding its middle, then counting down 15 rows (streets) takes you to Washington Square Park, about the only "ground" you can get to. It just seems like too strong of a coincidence to ignore. Then theres the 3 standing watch... Garibaldi, washington, and the other guy as statues...the namesakes meeting ( 2 washington statues on the arch), after all, it is his park. just seemed like too many things gelled for me.
go with your theories and see what materializes.
forest_blight
But why "only" three? "Only" makes sense for the lamppost in St. Louis because at one time there was a fourth ornamental lion on it. There are "only" three now.
Trohn
forest_blight wrote::
But why "only" three? "Only" makes sense for the lamppost in St. Louis because at one time there was a fourth ornamental lion on it. There are "only" three now.
only three horses in a race "hit the board" and pay money.
(these are the three to watch)
my current theory at Churchill (out of deducing a location untouched by renovation)
puts one out in the infield directly in front of the payout tote board.
I had been looking at more remote burial spots,
but with the lack of directional clues in this verse,
I am leaning towards a more prominent, can not not see spot.
If one goes to "the place where jewels abound"
and I am deducing that to mean Churchill Downs and jewels being
a description for million dollar horses....
the first floor seating (grandstand/clubhouse) has in the general number
of fiftten rows (from front rail to next level). I have to cehck this going back to
1981 because the first floor seating has been completely overhaualed.
At this vantage point, looking out upon the infield (past the dirt track and turf course)
one sees the center horse shoe .
adoks53
this is for F.B. questi0n above... because there are 4 statues there, but "only 3" people represented by them... Washington (on the arch) has 2 images of himself, "the namesakes meeting" near this site.
johann
Trohn-- Be careful. Don't get arrested digging in the infield.
Trohn
johann wrote::
Trohn-- Be careful. Don't get arrested digging in the infield.
as can be seen in some posted photos, it was fairly accessible back in the day.
I am looking for a solid solve and then to determine if it is still a valid unadulterated
location
way
before I buy a shovel.
I am attracted to this verse because of all of them, this is the one
that is so meager with its clues.
Bevity is beauty.
fox
Digging at the tote board would indeed be a daunting task. Is there anyone with authority to let you dig there Trohn? Would hate to see one of us tossed in the hoosegow.
adok...really like your ideas about Washington Park. If this is the case, what happens to our JPJ park ideas?
Now...for a little of my own thoughts on good old P9:
Has anyone focused on the odd tan area to the right of the man in the P? Can we get someone to blow it up and compare it to this?
I finally got an email from a message I posted on some Montreal message board. Here is what he said:
"The 'map' of the province of Quebec(including a part of southern Ontario) can be seen right of the mans face. It kind of looks like a water mark. It is the pale beige section on the backgroung wall."
Trohn
You mean the spires and stands....
boogieman
adoks53 wrote::
I'm still stuck in Manhattan on this clue. Manhattan is solid streets and buildings...except for a small park here and there. so... if you consider that the manhattan jewel district is "the place where jewels abound" , going to 21st st, and finding its middle, then counting down 15 rows (streets) takes you to Washington Square Park, about the only "ground" you can get to. It just seems like too strong of a coincidence to ignore. Then theres the 3 standing watch... Garibaldi, washington, and the other guy as statues...the namesakes meeting ( 2 washington statues on the arch), after all, it is his park. just seemed like too many things gelled for me.
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night
!
The first part of the V seems strong. I get stuck on this last part. Which I
had always thought would have to be Quebec, New Orleans, or any place
that considered itself apart from the rest of it's country or state.
Even Long Island, NY, which wants to be it's own state.
Anything from an image that you can link? I'd love to go check it out.
boogieman
adoks53 wrote::
I'm still stuck in Manhattan on this clue. Manhattan is solid streets and buildings...except for a small park here and there. so... if you consider that the manhattan jewel district is "the place where jewels abound" , going to 21st st, and finding its middle, then counting down 15 rows (streets) takes you to Washington Square Park, about the only "ground" you can get to. It just seems like too strong of a coincidence to ignore. Then theres the 3 standing watch...
Garibaldi
, washington, and the other guy as statues...the namesakes meeting ( 2 washington statues on the arch), after all, it is his park. just seemed like too many things gelled for me.
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night
!
The first part of the V seems strong. I get stuck on this last part. Which I
had always thought would have to be Quebec, New Orleans, or any place
that considered itself apart from the rest of it's country or state.
Even Long Island, NY, which wants to be it's own state.
Anything from an image that you can link? I'd love to go check it out.
fox
boogie...are you thinking P9 is for Manhattan?
boogieman
Not really Fox, I was responding to Adoks take on the verse, and not the image. Sticking to the idea that "until it's solved....."
No, I'm betting V10 and P12 are our NY clues, more precisely, JPJ Park. But anything is possible.
adoks53
My take on the box around the leg-eater is from a certain vantage point(such as a square hole in a wall to let water drain out of), what is inside the box is all you would be able to see. The rest of the image has to be shown so as to identify it easier (it only took 25 years to figure it out), but would have to extrapolate the parts outside the box from that vantage point to make the total omage complete. That's the old guy's take!
fox
Trohn asked me to try to post this picture and am assuming that he wanted it in P9 because of his horsey theory.
what are you showing us here Mr. T...besides of course Churchill Downs....
Trohn
Fox-
the posting didn't work for you either.
it shows three jockey gnomes standing at the rail watching the finish line.
they were removed when they added the turf course.
boogieman
Let's see! Where's the dig site?
Trohn
Dig site is in the middle of twenty-one.
(U horse shoe winners circle)
Would be to the right of the above photo.
regulus
the winners circle? can you dig there?
Trohn
regulus wrote::
the winners circle? can you dig there?
who knows now...
back then I am sure it was much more open.
Churchill Downs was not as corporate in 1981.
niteowl9
Trohn wrote::
back then I am sure it was much more open.
Churchill Downs was not as corporate in 1981.
I like the idea of 21=U=horseshoe, however....
I grew up in Louisville, my aunt worked at the track in the 40's and 50's, and my
mother worked for a company that had box seats that she got to use sometimes. Security
was always tight and the winner's circle is part of the infield which is not even open unless it's
a big event like the Derby. Even so, the winner's circle is not a place you can just walk into, and the track
was certainly not open to the public before or after a meet. Now, if you wanted to smuggle some alcohol
in, my cousin could give you some pointers, but burying a casket during a meet *in*the*winners*circle*
is not plausible. Maybe it would be possible if BP knew an owner/trainer/jockey, but did he?
Trohn
I am working on my contacts for the feasibliity of it.
I hve just been following the clues to where it all leads.
I need to get confirmation on the 'three stand watch'
and the dates when they were removed.
With the winners circle being in front of the tote boards,
its fits into other clues.
This is where they 'crown' the horses and as the image
indicates, the jewel is in the crown.
Hopefully, before they let me dig, someone in Montreal will dig it up......
shecrab
This is a problem I have too.
Especially with a location like Churchill Downs and also with Montreal.
I was IN Montreal in the late 70's and again in the mid-80's. An American could not walk into that city carrying a shovel and just bury something on public property--I don't think it would have been possible. Even a French-speaking American (me) could not get served in a restaurant during those times! It was the Separitist Movement and it was militantly anti-English-speaking and anti-American.
Preiss would have had to be some sort of invisible man to bury a casque there. I just don't see it happening.
And I agree about Churchill Downs, as well. Why wasn't St. Louis pursued more with this image? I thought it was a shoo-in (no pun intended) at one point?
c
forest_blight
St. Louis is still being pursued. I hope to reconnoitre Forest Park sometime later this spring (yes, I'll announce my trip before going).
As for BP being invisible... I remember reading somewhere that, in at least one of our casque locations, he dressed as a utility worker so that police wouldn't bother him while he dug. people wearing yellow worksuits and surrounded by orange pylons are practically invisible.
...much in the way that obvious civilians digging up tree-roots and bottle-caps in Milwaukee are not.
shecrab
I suppose anything's possible, but after having been tailed all over the city because I had been standing outside a pharmacy waiting for a friend who had gone inside, and having been followed during cab rides, shopping trips and so forth, I was grateful to get out of that town. It wasn't a pleasant experience by any means, and I have to tell you--I was (and am not) an obnoxious American traveler--I am polite, try to fit in best I can, and don't "demand" things simply because I'm American. I spoke French, though it was not the Quebecois dialect they wanted. And I did nothing to warrant being pursued and hounded like I was. I found the city to be almost unbearably hostile.
Of course, this didn't make me feel it was a normal reaction--so I went back some 8 years later; times had changed a little, after all, and I figured it would be better. It was to some extent, but there was still a definite undercurrent of prejudice and bigotry toward English-speaking people. I was treated only marginally better at that time; I was not followed, but I did notice a definite demarcation in the level of service I received.
And this is nothing against the Canadian people--I love Canada, and have never had this problem anywhere else in Quebec--only in Montreal.
That's why I doubt how much Preiss could have done there. It just wasn't an open, friendly location from the 70's through the late 80's. It's much better now--had he hidden the casque there prior to the 70's or even now, I'd say it was a likely locale, but at the time he did this? I have my serious doubts.
And granted, this is only an opinion based on admittedly subjective experience.
c
johann
Regarding the St. Louis theory, I am just plain stumped. Let me know when you are coming this way, Forest Blight.
Trohn
Comments?
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/106756 ... 8872ZWUKlN
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/106756 ... 8872PfecZv
and for the naysayers (no pun intended)
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/106756 ... 8872QwImLg
Trohn
Also, note...
the colors of the practice/workout saddles for Bob Baffert. (long time trainer)
hxxp://horseracing.about.com/library/gr ... pointg.jpg
These would be used on non-race conditions by the grooms for his horses.
forest_blight
An interesting sequence of events
1981
. J. J. Palencar paints a weirdo animal eating a hoof
Aug. 11, 2006
. ravel07 finds this guy hanging out at 1440 Drummond St., Montreal:
Aug. 12, 2006
. fox says "Lets research this thing to death." FB says "Okay!!"
August, 2006 - March, 2007
. FB researches this thing to death. Many letters were written to vintage decorative iron dealers and lighting specialists describing the situation with enough detail to intrigue, yet not enough to spill all the beans. These letters are accompanied with full-color photographs of the lamps at Mount Stephen Club. A couple bear fruit.
March 30, 2007
. Wayne Fuller of Robinson Iron Corp, Alexander City, AL writes:
"The post shown in your pictures contains a portion of ornamental detail from
a J. W. Fiske Lamppost No. 470 C. in a historic catalog in our collection.
Fiske had showrooms in
New
York, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The three
hooved/paws motif can often be found on posts of the period but as to their
meaning I am sorry to say I do not know. Perhaps you might consult The
Library of Congress or The Smithsonian Institute to find out more. Good Luck
in your pursuit."
Accompanying his message is this little gem:
...which matches the middle section of our lamp perfectly, as you can see (but
not
the base or the upper half). I guess the bottom wasn't ornate enough for Lord Mount Stephen. The base was either replaced with another part on-site, or else ordered from a newer catalog.
Finally having something to go on, FB roots up information on J. W. Fiske. Three sources present themselves: (1) 19th-century Fiske catalogs in the Library of Congress and elsewhere, (2) An article by Barbara Israel (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1026/is_3_157/ai_60370500
) that is very much worth reading, and, mentioned in that article, (3)
a living descendant of J. W. Fiske who happens to have, in his possession, sales records for the company.
.
April, 2007
. Jubilant now, FB seeks said catalogs through interlibrary loans. He also writes Barbara Israel for more information. Armed with serial numbers or catalog numbers for specific items (like, hopefully, our ornate lamp base), he will approach Mr. Fiske himself and figure out who else - hopefully someone in St. Louis - ordered one of these things.
That's an update. My search is active and ongoing, and I'll post more here before too long, I hope.
forest_blight
An interesting sequence of events
1981
. J. J. Palencar paints a weirdo animal eating a hoof
Aug. 11, 2006
. ravel07 finds this guy hanging out at 1440 Drummond St., Montreal:
Aug. 12, 2006
. fox says "Lets research this thing to death." FB says "Okay!!"
August, 2006 - March, 2007
. FB researches this thing to death. Many letters were written to vintage decorative iron dealers and lighting specialists describing the situation with enough detail to intrigue, yet not enough to spill all the beans. These letters are accompanied with full-color photographs of the lamps at Mount Stephen Club. A couple bear fruit.
March 30, 2007
. Wayne Fuller of Robinson Iron Corp, Alexander City, AL writes:
"The post shown in your pictures contains a portion of ornamental detail from
a J. W. Fiske Lamppost No. 470 C. in a historic catalog in our collection.
Fiske had showrooms in New York, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The three
hooved/paws motif can often be found on posts of the period but as to their
meaning I am sorry to say I do not know. Perhaps you might consult The
Library of Congress or The Smithsonian Institute to find out more. Good Luck
in your pursuit."
Accompanying his message is this little gem:
...which matches the middle section of our lamp perfectly, as you can see (but
not
the base or the upper half). I guess the bottom wasn't ornate enough for Lord Mount Stephen. The base was either replaced with another part on-site, or else ordered from a newer catalog.
Finally having something to go on, FB roots up information on J. W. Fiske. Three sources present themselves: (1) 19th-century Fiske catalogs in the Library of Congress and elsewhere, (2) An article by Barbara Israel (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1026/is_3_157/ai_60370500
) that is very much worth reading, and, mentioned in that article, (3)
a living descendant of J. W. Fiske who happens to have, in his possession, sales records for the company.
.
April, 2007
. Jubilant now, FB seeks said catalogs through interlibrary loans. He also writes Barbara Israel for more information. Armed with serial numbers or catalog numbers for specific items (like, hopefully, our ornate lamp base), he will approach Mr. Fiske himself and figure out who else - hopefully someone in St. Louis - ordered one of these things.
That's an update. My search is active and ongoing, and I'll post more here before too long, I hope.
shecrab
Before you travel to Montreal--this is from an article about
Variety Iron Works, from York, Pennsylvania:
New
York is also mentioned as a
New
Orleans
iron supplier. Granted, that city did have foundries,
but it is well known that J. W. Fiske of
New
York, one of the largest suppliers of cast-iron fountains, urns and other garden furniture in the United States, had all of its ironwork manufactured by Variety Iron Works.
The company continued to thrive. In the 20th century many famous architects, such as John Meade Howells and Mellor, Meigs and Howe, kept on using Variety iron for structural and decorative purposes in the public buildings and private homes they designed. A Philadelphia office was soon opened, and the foundry's work in iron, brass and steel can be found on and in banks, railroad stations, universities, post offices, hospitals and immense office buildings built there and elsewhere during the first half of the last century. Artisans were still being carefully trained in the 20th century, some through co-operative industrial apprenticeships in conjunction with York High School. In 1927, a student in the ornamental ironwork program would contract to work 5,400 hours over a three-year period. He was paid on a sliding scale of 7 cents to 15 cents an hour, but when he graduated he could look forward to a good job with the company.
The Variety Iron Works buildings have been used by other companies since the foundry closed in 1941. The brick office building with cast-iron lintels still stands on North Street, and the iron lions that guarded the gates are on display at York County Heritage Trust. In York and elsewhere, fences still mark boundaries, fountains spray and urns overflow with flowers. Lacy ironwork edges balconies and verandas. Feet tread up and down stairs graced with sturdy patterned railings.
New
Orleans
, Philadelphia, Chicago,
St. Louis,
State College, York, all over the country - durable, solid metal cast in York by Yorkers is still holding strong.
So those same lamppost bases could be anywhere by now. Not only in Montreal....
ck
shecrab
Before you travel to Montreal--this is from an article about
Variety Iron Works, from York, Pennsylvania:
New York is also mentioned as a New Orleans iron supplier. Granted, that city did have foundries,
but it is well known that J. W. Fiske of New York, one of the largest suppliers of cast-iron fountains, urns and other garden furniture in the United States, had all of its ironwork manufactured by Variety Iron Works.
The company continued to thrive. In the 20th century many famous architects, such as John Meade Howells and Mellor, Meigs and Howe, kept on using Variety iron for structural and decorative purposes in the public buildings and private homes they designed. A Philadelphia office was soon opened, and the foundry's work in iron, brass and steel can be found on and in banks, railroad stations, universities, post offices, hospitals and immense office buildings built there and elsewhere during the first half of the last century. Artisans were still being carefully trained in the 20th century, some through co-operative industrial apprenticeships in conjunction with York High School. In 1927, a student in the ornamental ironwork program would contract to work 5,400 hours over a three-year period. He was paid on a sliding scale of 7 cents to 15 cents an hour, but when he graduated he could look forward to a good job with the company.
The Variety Iron Works buildings have been used by other companies since the foundry closed in 1941. The brick office building with cast-iron lintels still stands on North Street, and the iron lions that guarded the gates are on display at York County Heritage Trust. In York and elsewhere, fences still mark boundaries, fountains spray and urns overflow with flowers. Lacy ironwork edges balconies and verandas. Feet tread up and down stairs graced with sturdy patterned railings. New Orleans, Philadelphia, Chicago,
St. Louis,
State College, York, all over the country - durable, solid metal cast in York by Yorkers is still holding strong.
So those same lamppost bases could be anywhere by now. Not only in Montreal....
ck
forest_blight
It is true that Fiske didn't cast and forge their designs, but they did sell them, so if the record of "our" sale still exists anywhere, it is likely in the Fiske records. I was unable to determine whether Variety's records still exist.
It is the hope that the Montreal lamp is *not* the one we are looking for, because there is nowhere to dig near it. Hence my search for other examples.
johann
Maybe I will soon have to take my daughter on a very long walk here in St. Louis to look for that beast on the bottom of lampposts.
stercox
WOW! Great research Forest! That had to take a lot of time.
Finally someone has found something substantive on that darn lamp post. Hopefully, it will ring a bell with Mr. Fiske straight away and that digging through old dusty sales records will not be required. Hopefully Ms Israel will also prove to be really useful. Looks like She-crab may have put your St. Louis back into play. Nice Job guys!!
shecrab
The entire (antique) J. W. Fiske catalogue is available for purchase. In my googling around, I saw that many antique iron works dealers use it and it's been offered for sale from numerous vendors. I doubt there will be any present connection, though--I think the company is now defunct. So is the Variety Iron Works.
Antique dealers may be the best bet here.
c
boogieman
johann wrote::
Maybe I will soon have to take my daughter on a very long walk here in St. Louis to look for that beast on the bottom of lampposts.
Sounds like this would be the best option. Shall we take a collection and get you new walking shoes?
How about WANTED POSTERS spread out around the city. "Wanted, a leg eating beast who likes to hang around lamp posts
and chew on limbs. Do not try to apprehend the beast by yourself. Must be handled by a trained professional, (like Johann)".
Has to be one somewhere in St Louis...
Again, nice work FB.
boogieman
johann wrote::
Maybe I will soon have to take my daughter on a very long walk here in St. Louis to look for that beast on the bottom of lampposts.
Sounds like this would be the best option. Shall we take a collection and get you
new
walking shoes?
How about WANTED POSTERS spread out around the city. "Wanted, a leg eating beast who likes to hang around lamp posts
and chew on limbs. Do not try to apprehend the beast by yourself. Must be handled by a trained professional, (like Johann)".
Has to be one somewhere in St Louis...
Again, nice work FB.
Trohn
Can someone speculate on the shape and design of the turned up
jacket collar, with trim. I know what I see and why, does anyone
want to provide their observations?
I know it is not a state or city outline.
Again, I knoiw what I see it as, and it fits like a glove,
but am curious to hear other thoughts.
FYIW... I use it alone in the upside down position.
If someone wants to crop and post, it may seem obvious
on how I use it.
Pine_Tree
...still kinda likin' NY myself...
I did find a guy who has a website (something like "Lost NYC" or "Old NYC" or something like that) with a whole section devoted to lampposts in NY. I forwarded the picture to him, but he never recalled seeing anything like it. FWIW.
Pine
adoks53
I'm with you on this pic as nyc Pine. If my theories hold water, the Canarsie tribe and Lowland gnomes and opal all met up on Manhattan Island (the city)
boogieman
Trohn wrote::
Again, I knoiw what I see it as, and it fits like a glove,
but am curious to hear other thoughts.
If someone wants to crop and post, it may seem obvious
on how I use it.
Trohn, Can you post a pic of what fits like a glove? I can't superimpose it, but I'd like to take another look at it.
boogieman
Some can't see it, I know. I can't superimpose this either but if anyone can try, I think we'll all see it.
johann
I too have tried this river idea, but I can't seem to make it fit.
Trohn
boogieman wrote::
Trohn, Can you post a pic of what fits like a glove? I can't superimpose it, but I'd like to take another look at it.
It is horse blanket, over a horse, looking at the back right flank,
minus the horse, of course. See the middle where the tail would be.
Horse blankets have heavy borders as shown for weight to keep them on.
(simply the black with gold trim)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_blanket
hxxp://www.doversaddlery.com/kensington ... /X1-23047/
This is for the horse that has everything:
hxxp://www.doversaddlery.com/rambo-orig ... /X1-24137/
forest_blight
A brief follow-up to my April 11 post about the lamppost. I've sent out a couple dozen interlibrary loan requests. It seems that three libraries have copies of 19th century J. W. Fiske catalogs: The Library of Congress, Winterthur Museum (Winterthur, DE), and the Athenaeum (Philadelphia, PA). If anyone lives in or near Philadelphia, it may pay to visit the Athenaeum and see the 18 Fiske catalogs they have for library use only. It's possible our lamp base can be found in one of them, and possible that they won't be found on a lamp but on something else, like an urn, a candelabrum, or furniture. That would open up all sorts of possibilities.
Anyway, one of the decorative lighting experts I contacted gave me a tip and I pursued it, a book by Franz Sales Meyer entitled
Handbook of Ornament
(1888/1892). On Plate 135 is this picture:
...which appears to be some strange animal eating a clawed leg. This is a candelabrum base. The caption reads "Legs from antique candelabra; the former [above] found in the ruins of Paestum; the other in the Museum, Naples." Paestum was an ancient Greek/Roman city in Southern Italy, so this motif goes back
way
before the Renaissance, which is when I thought it originated.
The text on candelabra feet reads:
"To afford the necessary steadiness, the base of the Candelabrum is planned on a comparatively large scale, and divided into three legs, which stretch-out, towards the points of an equilateral triangle. For the foot, the claw of an animal, and in particular the claw of the Lion, is used. Not infrequently the claws rest on balls or discs (Plate 135. 6). The transition to the shaft is designed with a double calix, the upper leaves of which rise and encircle the shaft, and the lower leaves descend and mask the junction of the three legs (Plate 135. 1 and 5). A delicate anthemion may be perceived between each pair of feet on richer examples (Plate 135. 2 and 3).
In exceptional cases the leg appears to grow from the mouth of an animal (Plate 135. 6)
. Occasionally a circular, profiled and decorated disc is used instead of the double calyx and anthemion. Sometimes, too, the shaft is prolonged downwards beneath the disc in the form of a knob, but does not touch the ground."
forest_blight
It appears this "foot-eating" motif is definitely Roman in origin. Here are two more examples. The first is a candelabrum base excavated at Ostia. It is interesting in that it is the only other one we've seen in which a
hoof
(rather than a claw) is being consumed, although it is a cloven hoof rather than a horse's hoof as on "our" lamp.
The second is a bronze candelabrum excavated at Pompeii. I found this in Andrew Speltz's
The Styles of Ornament
(1910).
boogieman
FB, really nice work. How can I help with this?
forest_blight
boogie - you live (sorta) near Philadelphia, right? At the Athenaeum in Philly is a selection of J. W. Fiske catalogs. Fiske, we think, made the lamp in Montreal. It's a long shot, but the more we know about that particular lamp model, the better we'll be able to find others like it, and the only way to do that is legwork. You never know what you might find. Perhaps that exact model was made only a certain year, and with its catalog number perhaps we can see who bought them in the purchase books (which still exist, by the way).
I've had no luck with interlibrary loan from the Library of Congress or Winterthur - these are noncirculating items, so they need to be seen
in the library
. The only libraries that have them, so far as I can tell, are Winterthur, LOC, and the Athenaeum. Put "fiske" and "iron" into the search box:
hxxp://www.philaathenaeum.org/
forest_blight
Does
anyone
here live near Philadelphia, PA, Winterthur, DE, or Washington, DC and might be up for a library run? I've got call numbers for J. W. Fiske catalogs at the Athenaeum, Winterthur Museum, and the Library of Congress. The idea would be to go through the catalogs until you identify the catalog number associated with our lamp base (with any luck), then obtain the company's sales records and find out who purchased lamps like that. It's a long shot, but might narrow our search considerably.
boogieman
Sorry for not getting back to you, FB. I lost a good friend in a motorcycle accident last week.
I'm reading all the posts, just toning it down a little. I'll be back soon.
regulus
I'm sorry for your loss, Boogie
adoks53
...I too lost a friend that way some years ago. My condolences go out to you.
boogieman
Thanks for your thoughts. Just getting over it, then bam! Lost my brother-in-law on Thursday. He was only 47.
forest_blight
boogie, I'm so sorry - this is awful news.
fox
A very belated yet heartfelt condolences to you and your family Boogie........
Trohn
Since this image is being discussed within other threads,
wanted to brig back an unresolved discussion -
what do the hands mean?
A renewed discussion is in order.
boogieman
Can't solve the
hands
issue. Here's what's curious to me-
The letter C and the # 39. Unless the # was put in to confuse, I can't see it being anything other than the latitude for our location. If this is true, Canada is out for this Image. Who want's 39 to be the latitude, say Aye? There are many States with this #, taken from here:
hxxp://www.bcca.org/misc/qiblih/latlong_us.html
Here are the States
- California, Colorado, Delaware, Illinios, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Utah, Virginia, and West Virgina. Basically, it passes through the middle of the country. Now, what about the C? I am exhausted looking in California and Colorado for this thing. Maybe it is not a C.... Any suggestions?
Here are some big cities
- Denver, Grand Junction, Dover, Wilmington, Indianapolos, Terre Haute, Topeka, Covington, Baltimore, Kansas City, Carson City, Reno, Atlantic City, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Philly. St Louis is 38* 45'. (almost)
Trohn
Here is a comparison of the fifteen rows
to the image detail.
Seems interesting to me.
CMSCHUT
Boogie,
I don't see a C , but a 9 ,and there is a 0 on the other side in her hair. I don't see a 3 on her forehead, but I see the 9. I would think that the 3 would be as obvious as the 9.
Hmmm looking now at the other side in her hair , The flip, I took to look like a 0 seems more like a sideways 6 or 9.
forest_blight
Her
hair? I see this person as a "he." Now I wonder.
We've had gender ambiguity issues with P10, too.
CMSCHUT
I just always thought it was a gal . Maybe the real puzzle is the gender. lol.
shecrab
Without a doubt that would be the ugliest woman I've ever seen portrayed in a painting. I think it's a guy.
What about these numbers and letters on the other side?
CMSCHUT
I agree Shecrab , but they do exist. I've had to do double takes before because I wasn't sure.
scottrocks7
I clicked around on the Forest Park web sight and found that a golf corse is part of the park. This could exsplain the dogleg. If we can confirm this is St. Louis things will realy fall into place.
boogieman
We had someone digging at that course a few years back. Check out the threads.
scottrocks7
I do not think the casque is burried on the golf course. It would have been too hard to get on and off without getting caught even in the middle of the night. I do however think the casque is someplace in Forest Park. All of the clues except the dog leg point to St. Louis and Forest Park. Their is a good chance that the dog leg represents the golf course. Prehaps not as the casque's location but that the casque is in the area of the golf course or as another confirmer of Forest Park.
boogieman
scottrocks7 wrote::
I do not think the casque is burried on the golf course. It would have been too hard to get on and off without getting caught even in the middle of the night. I do however think the casque is someplace in Forest Park. All of the clues except the dog leg point to St. Louis and Forest Park. Their is a good chance that the dog leg represents the golf course. Prehaps not as the casque's location but that the casque is in the area of the golf course or as another confirmer of Forest Park.
If you shall post, we shall read, and try to help one way or another. Make sure you catch up on all the research already done and take what you want from it. I've tried matching V5 to it with no luck AGAIN! Pick a verse and run, just don't be afraid of criticism.
vaq45
well-I have read a lot of posts and figure i should inject an observation----the fingers on this image have bothered me and thought i would look at them more closely--the two index fingers are crossed-that would be a "10" in roman numerials--the middle finger is a "C" if you turn the page 90 degrees--that would be "100" in roman numerials--(the index fingers are still crossed)the 10 is before the 100 so subtracting 10 from 100 leaves 90 which is the longitude for st louis--i have been to forest park a lot as i live near there and can tell you that a LOT has changed in 20 years-I don't think anything can be found there-but what do i know-i'll keep trying
Trohn
vaq45 wrote::
well-I have read a lot of posts and figure i should inject an observation----the fingers on this image have bothered me and thought i would look at them more closely--the two index fingers are crossed-that would be a "10" in roman numerials--the middle finger is a "C" if you turn the page 90 degrees--that would be "100" in roman numerials--(the index fingers are still crossed)the 10 is before the 100 so subtracting 10 from 100 leaves 90 which is the longitude for st louis--i have been to forest park a lot as i live near there and can tell you that a LOT has changed in 20 years-I don't think anything can be found there-but what do i know-i'll keep trying
sounds like you are attempting to fit the image with the theory...
'two indexed fingers crossed' = cross, steeple, church
'the middle finger bent' (not turning the book at all) = hill.
vaq45
yeah---guess your right
scottrocks7
Even though alot may have changed in Forest Park over the last 25 years, from what I can tell from the website, they keep detailed records of all changes they make to the park. This would enable us to on paper recreate the park as it was in '81. I think Verse 10 goes with this. I know alot of people thik this goes with
New
York but it seems to fit Forest Park more. I sent verses 5, 6 and 10 and Images 2 and 12 my aunt who lived in
New
York for 15 years and now lives a few hours drive outside Charleston. Hopefully she can get us a positive image to verse match.
scottrocks7
Even though alot may have changed in Forest Park over the last 25 years, from what I can tell from the website, they keep detailed records of all changes they make to the park. This would enable us to on paper recreate the park as it was in '81. I think Verse 10 goes with this. I know alot of people thik this goes with New York but it seems to fit Forest Park more. I sent verses 5, 6 and 10 and Images 2 and 12 my aunt who lived in New York for 15 years and now lives a few hours drive outside Charleston. Hopefully she can get us a positive image to verse match.
boogieman
scottrocks7 wrote::
I think Verse 10 goes with this. I know alot of people thik this goes with New York but it seems to fit Forest Park more. I sent verses 5, 6 and 10 and Images 2 and 12 my aunt who lived in New York for 15 years and now lives a few hours drive outside Charleston. Hopefully she can get us a positive image to verse match.
Don't know why I'm doing this but, I'll bite....What about V10 do you like about Forest Park?
And, why don't you just send the web address for this forum to your aunt? It has all the verses and images at the beginning of each thread. Then she can join to add to all of our mishmosh of ideas.
boogieman
scottrocks7 wrote::
I think Verse 10 goes with this. I know alot of people thik this goes with
New
York but it seems to fit Forest Park more. I sent verses 5, 6 and 10 and Images 2 and 12 my aunt who lived in
New
York for 15 years and now lives a few hours drive outside Charleston. Hopefully she can get us a positive image to verse match.
Don't know why I'm doing this but, I'll bite....What about V10 do you like about Forest Park?
And, why don't you just send the web address for this forum to your aunt? It has all the verses and images at the beginning of each thread. Then she can join to add to all of our mishmosh of ideas.
fox
You're funny boogie...
and Trohn....
scottrocks7
The tall giant is most likely a statue. There are planty of them in Forest Park and the slinder path is likely some sort of walking path. These two things make it sound like Forest Park. In a few weeks I may send this to the St. Louis Parks Department to see what they think.
boogieman
You have to show more than that. This is much better. Paths and statues are everywhere. Only one Narrows.
In the shadow--------- of the WTC
Of the grey giant-------observation deck Tower Two
Find the arm that------Verrazano Bridge
Extends over the slender path------Narrows Inlet
scottrocks7
I did not have alot of time to write last time but one other thing I forgot to mention was the whirring sound could mean Interstate 64 that runs right by Forest Park.
CMSCHUT
SR,
I don't agree this V matching this P , but have been curious as to why you omit the Arch as the Grey Giant ?
scottrocks7
I never thought of the Arch being the gray giant but most of the land around the Arch was federal land. It is not likely he would risk sneaking on thoes lands to try to burry a casque.
scottrocks7
This image is likely St. Louis. I looked at the hat. The right side of the hat that Soron thought was Olympic Stadium in Montreal is more likely a crude outline of Missourie. At least the east side as it conforms to the river. The shadow on the right side of the mat may also be tring to exentuate the crude outline of MO.
The definate confirmer for St. Louis is the STL Blues logo. Sence it does not appear that any decoies etc were used this should be a definate confirmer. The STL Arch and Courthouse were also hidden in the image but they could have easely been overlooked. The park is definately Forest Park. The checkerboard pattern was once at the entrance of Forest Park. The Jewel Box is also in the image. The casque is definately not in the Jewel Box as that would be a flower garden and even back in the early '80s it would likely be locked and very secured in the overnight. The dogleg that has led some to think Montreal is likely somehow connected to the worlds fair that was held there.
So the next big question which verse matches. Their are three verses that could match they are verse 3, 6 or 10. At first blush any of them could fit forest park. I think the most likely match is Verse 6. I will put why I think this in the appropriate thread
Kuh-Lai-Bah-Ti
So...you have a definite confirmer based off of a hockey logo and three different verses... And did you see the "legeater" in those pictures? THAT is more of a definite match than anything else.
shecrab
Unknown:
The definate confirmer for St. Louis is the STL Blues logo.
That is most definitely
NOT
the St. Louis Blues hockey team logo. No matter what you think. For one, it's backwards in orientation from the logo, and for another, it's
maybe
not even a musical note. It could as easily be 76, 6, 67, 77, 707 or something else.
scottrocks7
This could be the number 70. If this is then it likely is the key number that points to St. Louis.
If I rember correctly someone thought the way the hands were folded was the Roman Numeral 70. Thanks for putting that logo up. We may have all thought that was the Blues logo that we overlooked the obvious.
shecrab
I'd much rather think it was a 70 than the logo.
scottrocks7
I'M Back
!
Pagoda Circle is another place in Forest Park that could match Verse 6. Look at the way the hands are folded. Could this be a representation of the World's Fair Pavilion or the Pagoda at Pagoda Circle?!
Soon I will E-Mail Verses 3, 6 and 10 along with this Image to the St. Louis Parks Department to see if they can help. The Image definately indicates St. Louis and Forest Park one of thoes three verses matches it.
This Casque may be findable. Even though alot has changed in the park over the years it does not look as though alot of paveing has been done and detailed accounts of all changes have been kept. This should enable us to easely recreate the park as it was in '81 on paper and find the casque.
Trohn
Trohn wrote::
sounds like you are attempting to fit the image with the theory...
'two indexed fingers crossed' = cross, steeple, church
'the middle finger bent' (not turning the book at all) = hill.
Scottrocks -
"Look at the way the hands are folded"
See below.
This one is not St Louis. (But I beat a dead horse)
Give this one a few more weeks and we'll see about my theories.
(As long as permission is granted)
boogieman
Trohn wrote::
This one is not St Louis. (But I beat a dead horse)
Give this one a few more weeks and we'll see about my theories.
(As long as permission is granted)
Whoa! A few weeks for what?
scottrocks7
What are your theories Trohn.
And if this is not St. Louis what is it and which image is STL.
Rember we have a confirmation that a casque is in STL.
fox
a few weeks for Trohn to leave the paddock
scottrocks7
I am confident that this is the St. Louis picture. I think that because the things we think are numbers representing Lat and Long more closely resemble that of St. Louis then Montreal. Most of the other clues point to Forest Park.
Sorry Thorn but I do not think Louisville has a casque.
Verse 3 4 or 6 matches the image most likely 3.
I will soon begin to work with the STL park department to try to confirm the Verse 3 match.
But before I do I need to know One or more of you one time took pictures of a spot in a STL park and sent them to BP asking if this was the right place and he wrote back "Not the right spot"
Where was that?
And hey Boogie this can help you to once we get a match for St. Louis we will also know the NYC verse.
Another reason I think this is STL is because even the most open minded view of the three other images we do not know the location of it is hard to make a case for them being STL.
vaq45
The "Blues Logo" is actually a Flag and represents Flag circle drive in Tower Grove Park (st louis)--AAHHH,--but what do i know????
jimerson
scottrocks7 wrote::
But before I do I need to know One or more of you one time took pictures of a spot in a STL park and sent them to BP asking if this was the right place and he wrote back "Not the right spot"
Where was that?
johann said he received an email from BP stating that, but after many searches of this forum I cannot seem to locate the exact text of that email.
Trohn
scottrocks7 wrote::
I
Sorry Thorn but I do not think Louisville has a casque.
I do not take offense (except you spelled my name wrong.)
My interpretation is not a popular one (in fact I haven't found anyone who
whole heartedly agrees with it.)
I wish you luck in your searches - even if I think they are incomplete.
As has been my general belief with all of the images, the placement of the jewel
in the image is intentional - can you explain how this jewel in the hat fits in
with St Louis?
fox
I too at one time believed that the jewel placement meant something but those beliefs are fading. Trohn, can you explain why or what the meaning of the jewel placements in the Chicago & Cleveland pictures were?
Trohn
fox wrote::
I too at one time believed that the jewel placement meant something but those beliefs are fading. Trohn, can you explain why or what the meaning of the jewel placements in the Chicago & Cleveland pictures were?
Chicago - under the chain link (found beneath the chain fence)
Cleveland - in the stone wall (found in the concrete planter)
forest_blight
The Chicago casque was found a few yards away from the fence, and
far
away from that particular fencepost (the one with the arch over it).
Trohn
forest_blight wrote::
The Chicago casque was found a few yards away from the fence, and
far
away from that particular fencepost (the one with the arch over it).
The placement of the jewel in the image for Chicago was not under the detail for the arched gate,
it was used as a location reference. The image has the jewel pictured as an ear ring - hanging from the
metal link.
Still though, I haven't seen answered why (for St Louis) image nine has the jewel fashioned to the hat.
Any takers?
fox
not going to bite here...pretty sure you are referring to the Triple Crown of horse racing...
scottrocks7
Here is my take on this image and how it indicates STL. Start with the hat. An outline of Missouri as it borders illinois is on the right side of the hat. The checkerboard hat and the other checkerboard image was at one time across the street from the park entrance. The fact that the jewel is in the hat is likely saying to take this entrance into the park to find the casque. When the image is turned upside down the lower checker board pateren reveals the Jewel Box which is in the park. The Jewel Box was likely the park confirmer and not the area of the casque.
There are two reasons the jewel box are is not the location first hh colud not have gotten into the Jewel Box even back then to burie a casque and most of the area in and around the Jewel Box then as now was a flower garden and none of the verses and paticularly the three likely verses seen to fit the area.
The STL Arch was hidden in the image but culd have easilly been missed. The unbuttoned part of the shirt is the STL courthouse. These two were the city confirmers. The dogleg was likely a reference to the worlds fair pavilion. To eliminate Montreal all together do some research to confirm that no checkarboard pateren existed anyplace a casqu may have likely been.
The last clue and likely the most important is the hands the hands are likely crude representations of one of these three: The Worlds Fair Pavilion, Pagoda Circle or the long palm shadow/bar that binds from verse 6. The fountain found at the toe of the dog leg is likely important too.
You all though must assume I am in wrong about Verse 6 and do all digging in Hamilton Square now though. I will work to find a match all three verses have historical references that should enable an exact match if they are understood.
cw0909
a helpful link to images some need a little more
digging as they are not titled, in search type city
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/3143010
cw0909
i found the most obvious checkerboard in stl
purinas checkerboard plaza, there are a couple of parks near there and
a.... b.b. jazz and soup inc. bar
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... 1&ct=image
thought i would add pic
fox
still unsure as to which V leads us to SL but I am liking this P more and more.
johann
Of course, I like the St. Louis idea because it is convenient for me, and BP seemed to confirm it.
But alas, I have hunted much (with some digging) and I am stumped.
If anyone wants to come over here and look, I would be happy to help.
scottrocks7
fox wrote::
still unsure as to which V leads us to SL but I am liking this P more and more.
The clues seem to indicate Forest Park as the casques location. Looking at maps online Verses 3 6 and 10 could fit. Verse 6 stands out as the most likely of the three. It now looks like the exact site of the casques burial place is hidden in most of the images.
The checkarboard colar could be the arms extended and bar that binds.
Also where was the location in STL one of you took and sent to BP and he said "not the right spot". I think he was saying the wrong location in the right park. This was his way of confirming the park.
johann
If that is the case, the treasure would not be in Forest Park but in Tower Grove Park, which is the solution I sent him. Forest Park would be more "high profile." If anyone comes to hunt in Forest Park, I do recommend a trip to Tower Grove. It is beautiful.
scottrocks7
I looked at Tower Grove Park online. We should keep this in mind but I do not think this is the park. I did not realy see anything in the image that looked like anything there. However the Gray Giant verse could possibly fit. If I rember right johann you used what we now think is the New Orleans verse to search Tower Grove.
I am open to other ideas but judgeing from the image it looks like the casque is in forest park somewhare around either the World's Fair Pavilion or Pagoda Circle.
Looking at Forest Park online Verses 3 6 and 10 could fit. The correct verse among these three can be decerned by figuering out the historic event clues in the verse.
I will review everything and let you know if find out something. I will be updateing my image to verse match thread soon with what may turn out to be the correct combination depending on what we find in STL.
scottrocks7
I looked at Tower Grove Park online. We should keep this in mind but I do not think this is the park. I did not realy see anything in the image that looked like anything there. However the Gray Giant verse could possibly fit. If I rember right johann you used what we now think is the
New
Orleans
verse to search Tower Grove.
I am open to other ideas but judgeing from the image it looks like the casque is in forest park somewhare around either the World's Fair Pavilion or Pagoda Circle.
Looking at Forest Park online Verses 3 6 and 10 could fit. The correct verse among these three can be decerned by figuering out the historic event clues in the verse.
I will review everything and let you know if find out something. I will be updateing my image to verse match thread soon with what may turn out to be the correct combination depending on what we find in STL.
johann
Perhaps this has been said before, but maybe when BP referred to "St. Louis" he slyly meant St. Louis Cathedral in
New
Orleans
. Maybe this is where we must get permission to dig. I did not know where else to post this.
johann
Perhaps this has been said before, but maybe when BP referred to "St. Louis" he slyly meant St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans. Maybe this is where we must get permission to dig. I did not know where else to post this.
fox
ah yes, back to jackson square.
scottrocks7
Jackson Square or City Park is the location of the New Orleans Casque. The key to finding the exact location is the mardi gras mask.
scottrocks7
Jackson Square or City Park is the location of the
New
Orleans
Casque. The key to finding the exact location is the mardi gras mask.
maltedfalcon
Why do you say that,? in the two confirmed finds.
the picture leads to the city, general location
and the verse leads to the specific spot the casque was buried,
Is there a reason this one is different?
scottrocks7
I think this image is definately St. Louis and the Park is almost definately Forest Park. I also think verse 6 goes to this image. I now think that Pagoda Circle is the area in which the casque is burried. I think this because of the outline of the black colar. If you turn the image upside down and look at the outline of the black colar it looks like a pagoda likely the one at pagoda circle.
The hands then are likely a representation of Pagoda Circle the pagoda is on a hill and Trohn said it looked like a church on a hill. What Trohn was likely seeing was a pagoda on a hill.
Now if a fountain that resembles the one we think is in the image next to the dogleg is near this area I think we found the area.
Under any condition it is safe to say this image is St. Louis and the park is Forest Park.
We can also go one step further and say the casque is in one of three areas of the park. In order of likelyhood they are Pagoda Circle, World's Fair Pavilion and the Jewel Box.
I do not think the Jewel Box at all because then as now it was mostly flower gardens. It is likely the reason it says no casque was burried in a flower garden because of this site. People could have figured it out to the Jewel Box and bug it up inside and out looking for the casque. The Jewel Box would be most peoples first guess.
Soon I will post in verse 6's thread how I think it goes to this image and I will update my Image to Verse match thread to show the likely matches should Verse 6 be confirmed to this image.
fox
fox wrote::
ah yes, back to jackson square.
Of course i did not mean for this V to lead to N.O. I was only excited about the mention of Jackson Square (where {or near where} I believe the N.O. casque to be).
Trohn
scottrocks7 wrote::
The hands then are likely a representation of Pagoda Circle the pagoda is on a hill and Trohn said it looked like a church on a hill. What Trohn was likely seeing was a pagoda on a hill.
No.
cw0909
this fountain is very near the muny in forest park
has about the same shape as pic
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/7468017
forest_blight
There are several pictures of this fountain posted in the thread "St. Louis Compilation," July 2006.
scottrocks7
We do not know the location within the park yet. But the clues strongly indicate Forest Park. Does anyone know the location of the mumy in relation to Pagoda Circle. For now I still think Pagoda Circle is the area of the casque I think the pagoda is the "white house" mentioned in the verse.
For now though we need to asume our original therory about verse 6 being New York is true and act on it now that the concerte has been removed from the NY park until I can get something more definate.
cw0909
scottrocks7 wrote::
We do not know the location within the park yet. But the clues strongly indicate Forest Park. Does anyone know the location of the mumy in relation to Pagoda Circle. For now I still think Pagoda Circle is the area of the casque I think the pagoda is the "white house" mentioned in the verse.
For now though we need to asume our original therory about verse 6 being New York is true and act on it now that the concerte has been removed from the NY park until I can get something more definate.
yes
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/5810017
i think the fountain is behind the pagoda, out of that view
sorry did not see or look at those posts for the fountain
cw0909
thought this should go here too, moved it over from v-6 thread
had forgot about this fountain
hxxp://www.slfp.com/ForestPark.html
map for fountain
hxxp://www.slfp.com/SLFP-FPFEmap.htm#anchor517979
the bad thing is i think they had a notice when i was there that some more work would be done
anyway its behind zoo and if you look up the worlds fair st louis, i think something came up white
if youve never been to this city park, your missing a great experince. anyway if your near st louis on a
vac go the extra 100 mile it is worth it, there are some days, that some attractions are closed, im thinking
mon and tues. , check it out if you get the chance
some links to help
hxxp://www.forestparkforever.org/HTML/s ... _tour.html
hxxp://www.forestparkforever.org/HTML/l ... after.html
hxxp://www.forestparkforever.org/HTML/contact.html
alpha order of what shows at the muny, may connect a line or two in verse?
hxxp://www.muny.org/content/view/7/101/
maybe these people can help
hxxp://stlouis.missouri.org/government/ ... pagoda.htm
more info
hxxp://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/parks/forestpark/
scottrocks7
Another strong indication that the Pagoda Circle is the area is the outline of the black colar. Turn the image upside down and you will see a crude representation of the pagoda. Not perfect but close enough.
It may also be possible that the dogleg is on or around the Muny Theater.
We are very close on this one. I hope to have the middle part of the verse decoded soon this will likely confirm our therory.
cw0909
placed here from general questions
Re: General Questions
« Reply #227 on: Today at 10:09:37 pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: boogieman on Yesterday at 10:19:18 pm
Quote from: Jambone on Yesterday at 10:09:36 pm
Quote from: scottrocks7 on Yesterday at 04:27:27 pm
Image 8 is definately Houston because Reunion Tower is in the image
I live in the Dallas area and Reunion tower is here, not in Houston (roughly 220 miles away). I believe that Image 8 goes with Houston, but for other reasons (see Wilhouse's numerous posts). Sorry to pick this nit, but I think I've seen this same mistake before, maybe on the Secret Wiki site?
Yup. no matter how tight we try to keep the forum, something always gets mixed up. Inevitable?
Scotty, in general, what about the dog leg in image9 clues you into the 1904 World's fair in St Louis?
searching dogtown :
hxxp://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... own+st+lou
found this site in the search, wow! dogtown it is,Bob Corbett is the man
hxxp://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/dogtow ... html#links
looked at a couple of links, cant make date out on the pics here, 1966/76
hxxp://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/s ... splate.htm
this man Bob Corbett, is the local historian on dogtown
hxxp://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/dogtow ... patch.html
will move this to p-9 also
forgot to mention this seems to dump my therory on v-2, oh well nothing like starting over
« Last Edit: Today at 10:19:35 pm by cw0909 »
scottrocks7
The dogleg could be makeing reference to dogtown. This would be something only locals would know. The other two or three other clues to the city of SRL were easy to miss.
I have had alot of time to think about both the image and potential verses recently.
I think the image is telling us either the pagoda circle or world's fair pavilion area of the park.
maltedfalcon
looks more gazelley then doggy to me.
I think you are trying to hard to shoehorn clues into your presumed site.
i.e..
Turn the image upside down and you will see a crude representation of the pagoda. Not perfect but close enough.
on the cleveland and chicago images hidden images (window, fixture, tower, wall, fountain, etc.,) were exact representations. cut and pasted and hidden, but exact.
animal painter
Scottrocks
My observations about Tower Park were made before being fully up-to-speed on Image 9.
Will do more research before sharing again....
AP
scottrocks7
Tower Grove could be the park. The clues though for now seem to indicate Forest Park. The key is to figure out the rest of verse 6. If we come up empty on Forest Park Tower Grove is the next most likely location. Soon I hope to get some outside help decodeing the middle section of the verse. They are historical clues that will tell us the park and the location. For now though it looks like Forest Park is correct but I will test both before trying to dig it out.
johann
What specifically is the pagoda we are talking about?
shecrab
Johann:
ttp://stlouis.missouri.org/government/docs/forestpark/pagoda.htm
(sigh...)
animal painter
Pagoda Circle, Forest Park, today
Did the Pagoda really look like this in years past??
What a difference!
AP
scottrocks7
I think the one on the top was there well before the publishing of the secret.
It looks like the Missouri Historical Society is helping us. They wrote on June 20th. I just now discovered it. I do not check my E-mail that often because I usually do not get anything of significance.
scottrocks7
I have looked at this image and think it is STL. I also think Forest Park is the location. I thibk Verse 6 goes to the image. I think the thing that ties the image to the verse is the arms extended bar that binds. I think that is represented by the checkard image in the chest aresa. Turned upsidedown it looks like arms extnded and a bar that binds.
I am not as sure of the location within the park. The verse appears to be hinting at the [agoda circle area but I am not as sure now that I saw the pagoda in the image.
Acording to the Wiki you think the colar area is the STL Court House. I asume you mean the old Courthouse by the arch. Do you mean the black colar or the exspoesed neckline. If you mean the black colar then the hands must be a clue I would be more inclined to think maybe the World's Fair Pavilion area.
The way to know if I am right is to figure out the middle part of the verse.
What do the hands represent
I hope this is not STL Quebec because STL MO is only a 3 hour drive from where I am at.
forest_blight
I will be attending a conference this September, oh, about 3 blocks from everyone's favorite Montreal lamppost. Perhaps I will have a chance to scout out the area and take some pictures.
animal painter
Forest,
That seems like a very serendipitous conference.
If anyone can find some connection there, I am
sure that you can!
Do you think that the lamppost is the city landmark
which BP tends to include for each location?
Would it be recognizable to most Montreal residents?
AP
forest_blight
My understanding is that the lamppost is pretty obscure. Just one more pretty piece of metalwork in a city full of beautiful architectural details. Either it is meant to be a site-marker (i.e., very close to the casque site) or, more likely, there is another such lamppost in another city altogether. The odds are very small that the two lamps in front of the Mount Stephen Club are the only ones of their kind in the whole world.
shecrab
forest_blight wrote::
I will be attending a conference this September, oh, about 3 blocks from everyone's favorite Montreal lamppost. Perhaps I will have a chance to scout out the area and take some pictures.
Do us a favor, FB, and take one at a slightly different angle than the one we've got posted....So that the brick work and archway that is just slightly visible to the right of the lamppost is visible. And have fun!
animal painter
Shecrab,
Here is a 360 degree virtual tour of the facade of Mount Stephen Club in Montreal,
supposed to be where the two lampposts are located. Can't see the legeaters,
but you can see the surroundings.
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/visi ... lle_en.htm
AP
cw0909
forest_blight wrote::
My understanding is that the lamppost is pretty obscure. Just one more pretty piece of metalwork in a city full of beautiful architectural details. Either it is meant to be a site-marker (i.e., very close to the casque site) or, more likely, there is another such lamppost in another city altogether. The odds are very small that the two lamps in front of the Mount Stephen Club are the only ones of their kind in the whole world.
have been thinking prob only one co. made that post too, have been looking, no luck
i emailed [sorry forgot name] of lamp post co. to see if they have ever seen it or know
anything about the legeater, i think the co. ad said have been around for 50+ years,
and i think in aps' post at this link i read no rework on the house till the 90s' i will recheck that
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/visi ... lle_en.htm
bclews
FB,
If you'd take a number of photos for a 360º image I'd be happy to stitch them together. In fact, I'll make that offer for anyone at any of the proposed casque locations.
Take 12 to 20 photos in a circle. Keep the camera as level as possible and make sure the images overlap by about 20%.
animal painter
forest_blight wrote::
An interesting sequence of events
1981
. J. J. Palencar paints a weirdo animal eating a hoof
Aug. 11, 2006
. ravel07 finds this guy hanging out at 1440 Drummond St., Montreal:
Aug. 12, 2006
. fox says "Lets research this thing to death." FB says "Okay!!"
August, 2006 - March, 2007
. FB researches this thing to death. Many letters were written to vintage decorative iron dealers and lighting specialists describing the situation with enough detail to intrigue, yet not enough to spill all the beans. These letters are accompanied with full-color photographs of the lamps at Mount Stephen Club. A couple bear fruit.
March 30, 2007
. Wayne Fuller of Robinson Iron Corp, Alexander City, AL writes:
"The post shown in your pictures contains a portion of ornamental detail from
a J. W. Fiske Lamppost No. 470 C. in a historic catalog in our collection.
Fiske had showrooms in New York, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The three
hooved/paws motif can often be found on posts of the period but as to their
meaning I am sorry to say I do not know. Perhaps you might consult The
Library of Congress or The Smithsonian Institute to find out more. Good Luck
in your pursuit."
Accompanying his message is this little gem:
...which matches the middle section of our lamp perfectly, as you can see (but
not
the base or the upper half). I guess the bottom wasn't ornate enough for Lord Mount Stephen. The base was either replaced with another part on-site, or else ordered from a newer catalog.
Finally having something to go on, FB roots up information on J. W. Fiske. Three sources present themselves: (1) 19th-century Fiske catalogs in the Library of Congress and elsewhere, (2) An article by Barbara Israel (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1026/is_3_157/ai_60370500
) that is very much worth reading, and, mentioned in that article, (3)
a living descendant of J. W. Fiske who happens to have, in his possession, sales records for the company.
.
April, 2007
. Jubilant now, FB seeks said catalogs through interlibrary loans. He also writes Barbara Israel for more information. Armed with serial numbers or catalog numbers for specific items (like, hopefully, our ornate lamp base), he will approach Mr. Fiske himself and figure out who else - hopefully someone in St. Louis - ordered one of these things.
That's an update. My search is active and ongoing, and I'll post more here before too long, I hope.
cw0909,
Forest Blight did research on the lamppost and came up with this:
forest_blight
If I get an opportunity, I will try to do that, bclews - thanks for the offer.
cw0909 - elsewhere in this forum I detail my search for the company that manufactured the lamp. Please see my posts in April/May, 2007 in the Image 9 thread. The next step, as I see it, is to find someone here willing to spend a few hours at one of these three libraries:
The Library of Congress (Washington, DC)
Winterthur Museum (Winterthur, DE)
The Athenaeum (Philadelphia, PA)
The lamps in front of the Mount Stephen Club are about as old as the house, built in the 1880s.
maltedfalcon
I am going to suggest an application of Occam's Razor here.
The Simplest solution is the best....
a -There is a casque in Canada
b-There is a picture of the leg of a lamp located in canada in Image 9...
c- while the lamp's manufacturer is known, the base seems custom made and unique.
d - no one else recognizes this lamp as a local landmark
a+b+c+ d = image 9 is the Canadian image..., montreal is the Canadian City...
It would be so like BP to mean St Louis Park when saying there was a casque in St. Louis....
He liked red herrings like that, (Lincoln and Congress, almost had to mean Washington D.C. didnt it?)
fox
I have always thought that P9 was our Canadian pic...and the legeatear find narrowed it down to Montreal...but, Sq St Louis sure is small compared to the parks in Cleveland & Chicago where casques were found as well as many of our other fairly concrete locations. There just doesnt seem to be to much in SSL let alone a nice fountain
digger7
maltedfalcon wrote::
I am going to suggest an application of Occam's Razor here.
The Simplest solution is the best....
a -There is a casque in Canada
b-There is a picture of the leg of a lamp located in canada in Image 9...
c- while the lamp's manufacturer is known, the base seems custom made and unique.
d - no one else recognizes this lamp as a local landmark
a+b+c+ d = image 9 is the Canadian image..., montreal is the Canadian City...
I've got to agree with maltedfalcon here. It is possible that the legeater thing is located in other places and we just haven't found it yet. But until someone finds another one somewhere else I vote that we assume that image 9 is Montreal.
digger7
Coupla interesting things about Montreal. Mont Royal Park was designed by Frederick Law Olmstead.
When you google "Grant Park" and "Cleveland Cultural Gardens" one of the hits you get is for
www.pps.org
which is the homepage for Project for Public Spaces. And I found this when I was googling images for St. Louis Square.
Great Public Space:
Square St. Louis, Montreal, Quebec
A classic Victorian fountain is the centerpiece of the park, along with an old gazebo with a small selection of snacks. It is said to be favorite haunt of writers, painters and filmmakers seeking artistic inspiration, but on a sunny day everyone in the neighborhood seems to be there, making it a true town square. The major attraction are plentiful benches, where you can relax, meet your neighbors or just watch as the world passes by.
This nomination is from the Project for Public Spaces (PPS) website. PPS is building a database of "Great Public Spaces", which can be viewed at:
hxxp://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/
.
Now obviously this nomination for St. Louis Square comes WAY after The Secret was written but maybe BP and this organization had a similar eye for interesting places.
animal painter
animal painter wrote::
cw0909...
Wow is right!
BP could really have been having a lot of fun, being able to truthfully
say that there is a casque in Canada (Montreal) and in "St. Louis", Montreal.
These are just a few photos in that park Sq. St-Louis in Montreal....
I cannot make out the writing on the base of the statue.
AP
Digger, I did find photos of the fountain and other sights in "Sq. St. Louis"
Which verses are left that may be related to Image 9?
AP
Trohn
digger7 wrote::
I've got to agree with maltedfalcon here. It is possible that the legeater thing is located in other places and we just haven't found it yet. But until someone finds another one somewhere else I vote that we assume that image 9 is Montreal.
If you remember, I did post a photo of another 'leg eater' found inside the Boston Public Library.
forest_blight
Can you give us the link to that post, Trohn?
animal painter
This is the back side of the Trinity Church on Copley Square right next door
to the Boston Public Library! I used the street view from Google to "walk"
around the block.
Does the checkerboard design look familiar? It is used all around the Church exterior.
It is even the right color for Image 9...
The "hands" in the image can denote praying...as in the Trinity Church...
If we can find the "leg-eater" photo in the BPL, we will have quite a lead!
There is also a very nice park with a fountain on the other side of the church.
AP
cw0909
ap i always thought of p-9 dude as some sort of clergy, maybe back in
the days before electric.
i remember something about trohns' /or at least a post about the legeater,
and the boston Library, maybe they moved the post inside
good find on the checkerboard design
slappybuns
wouldn't you know...............lion at mount royal:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A_li ... ntreal.jpg
because of the hand gesture, i looked up "steeple" in mount royal and found this:
Using General Electric and English Electric box and "steeple" cab locomotives, these aged machines continued to pull commuter trains through the City of Mount Royal along the Tunnel Line until well into the 1990's.
hxxp://www.railfame.ca/sec_ind/communit ... yal_QC.asp
and also there is the cross:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Moun ... -cross.jpg
not sure if the "golden square mile" is important, but made me think of the checkerboard design
"The Golden Square Mile was the name of a luxurious neighbourhood at the foot of Mount Royal in the west-central section of downtown Montreal, Canada."
doesn't this flower design look like the flower in the image?....sort of
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/fotoproze/442856686/
could the design above the dogleg eater in the image be the design in the cross?
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/rer212/2050316 ... 150423776/
animal painter
Slappy,
Where ever we look, it seems that we cannot get away from lions!
These two are inside the Boston Public Library...with lampposts nearby...
Only I cannot get a good look at the base to see if it has "leg eaters".
Trohn says that there are leg eaters inside the library.
Anyone in the Boston area who can go look in the BPL?
Verse 3 makes reference to the "green tower of lights"
This is a photo of the John Hancock Tower in Copley Square just behind the
Trinity Church, just next door to the Boston Public Library....
slappybuns
lol, AP, don't get me started on boston, i go crazy.
i am still convinced image 11 and verse 3 are boston. .............right in the public gardens,
animal painter
Slappy,
Has Image 9 ever been related to Verse 3 before?
AP
slappybuns
AP, if Trohn found a leg eater in Boston then he made a link. I don't remember his post either, and no time to check thru the posts right now
Trohn
slappybuns wrote::
AP, if Trohn found a leg eater in Boston then he made a link. I don't remember his post either, and no time to check thru the posts right now
It was found more of interest and humor than matching up
directly with Image Nine.
Re: verse 3
« Reply #259 on: December 06, 2007, 21:32:40 »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is everyone sitting down....
hxxp://muddyriver.typepad.com/photos/bo ... /lib3.html
Look at the great photos of the courtyard..but look what else is in
BPL:
Someone want to copy this over to image 9.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
animal painter
Trohn,
It is indeed a leg-eater...but with a paw not a hoof...
Thanks for finding the photo...and yanking me back to reality.
AP
scottrocks7
We are focusing too much on the dogleg/lion leg in this image. I hope to be writeing the Missourie History Library soon. I will draw their attention to the dogleg and tell them what a stumbeling block it is for us. I still think the dogleg either is a clue to the world's fair or is somehow a clue to the muny theater.
For now this is how I read the clues in the image and how they point toward Forest Park. The first thing is the checkerboard pateren that is so dominent in the image. If I rember correctly one of these posts said that at that time this pateren was present just outside of forest park. I think the right side of the hat is the outline of the eastren border of Missourie. The Arch is hidden near the eye. I am now in agreement that the black colar is the old courthouse. We will have to look at the white shirt as it is likely a clue as well. When turned upside down the Jewel Box is present along with what looks like the arms extended bar that binds. The key clues to figure out are the shirt, the dogleg/lionleg ::) and the hands.
My best guess is that the shirt in contrast with the colar is somehow the pagoda, The hands are the world's fair pavillion and the dogleg is a clue to the muny theater.
One thing for sure if I have figured out the right verse correctly it appears to be starting us at the muny theater and directing us to a arbor type planter that you can see the pagoda from. If this is correct a clue to the muny must be present likely either the hands or the dogleg.
fox
that legeater is close but the foot is all wrong... we need a hoof, not a paw...
cw0909
that legeater
i think is lead , it is there , because it is a a lead, too where?
how many could there be, in the 80s'. and how many, have been moved since then.
maltedfalcon
The LegEater is the kind of architectural detail that might get moved but not removed.
So basically the one in montreal is an exact match, not close, but exact. Finding one similar would not work, because what would the odds be that the painter changed it enough to make it exactly like one in a different city...
So either find one exactly like it in St. Louis or pick a different image for st louis.
This in no way says there isnt one in st louis, just that your are using the wrong image.
cw0909
to trhon.........
hxxp://muddyriver.typepad.com/photos/bo ... lib13.html
i think to the pic
info here to fiske
just follow links , i have not followed all, have at it, some i have seen shows, dif aspects of work.
j w fiske, pab
hxxp://www.philadelphiabuildings.org/pa ... .cfm/88325
fireman
hxxp://www.arch.state.pa.us/display.asp
memorial fountain, an statue
hxxp://www.arch.state.pa.us/display.asp
fiske links/ you will have to check each
hxxp://www.philadelphiabuildings.org/pa ... utions.cfm
hxxp://www.winterthur.org/visiting/sear ... 7375734944
%
3Azxwklon1hxk&cof=FORID%3A11&z=j+w+fiske&q=j+w+fiske&sa=Search+Winterthur#480
767. Fiske, Joseph Winn, ca. 1832–?
Order books. 1870, 1872.
2 vols.: ill.; 32 cm.
Joseph Winn Fiske, a native of Chelmsford, Massachusetts, went to Australia in 1853 to make and sell hardware and tools. After a stay of five years, he returned to America and started a business making metal products, eventually including umbrella stands, garden fixtures, settees, stable fittings, hitching posts, weathervanes, brackets, etc. In 1900 Fiske incorporated his business into J. W. Fiske Iron Works. The firm remained in business into the late 1980s.
Volumes record orders placed with Fiske between October and December of 1870 and May and August of 1872. The name of the customer, his or her address, and the product ordered were all noted. In some instances, prices and a sketch were added.
Trade catalogues located in Printed Book and Periodical Collection, Winterthur Library.
Folio 90.
slappybuns
i'm with maltedfalcon on this so far. we have the dogleg and an olmsted park close by, in montreal.
cw909, good research! is the winterthur library an online library? forest_blight has been trying to drag someone into some dusty old library to find out where the fiske doglegs were put. maybe the whole catalogue is online.
i found this a little striking:
hxxp://www.artinliverpool.com/blogarch/ ... rtrait.jpg
montreal museum of fine arts had a rembrandt stolen, it was a landscape not a self-portrait, still, the portrait is very similar to our image, don't you think?
just to add more confusion:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/squeakybear/30 ... 496567908/
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/jazminmillion/1330747839/
grey giant?
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/ash2276/1144165596/
animal painter
This is the tower seen from the park "Square Dorchester/Place du Canada"
which is within walking distance of the "legeater" on Drummond Ave in
Montreal. The similarity of the step-pattern on the building to the
step-pattern on image 9, may be another confirmer that this is in Montreal.
AP
xlurker
I have been looking and V7 and Montreal for this P recently.
There is a Jewel at Montreal Botanical Gardens:
hxxp://dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0008353.htm
Also Mark Twain visited Montreal in 1881 and according to this speech he gave:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/18811210.html
he visited:
hxxp://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/eng/accueila.htm
which is a pretty giant
pole
(monument) of Horatio Nelson and right across the street are three high posts. Three courthouses right in a row.
xlurker
I have been looking and V7 and Montreal for this P recently.
There is a Jewel at Montreal Botanical Gardens:
hxxp://dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0008353.htm
Also Mark Twain visited Montreal in 1881 and according to this speech he gave:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/18811210.html
he visited:
hxxp://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/eng/accueila.htm
which is a pretty giant pole (monument) of Horatio Nelson and right across the street are three high posts. Three courthouses right in a row.
catherwood
animal painter wrote::
This is the tower seen from the park "Square Dorchester/Place du Canada"
which is within walking distance of the "legeater" on Drummond Ave in
Montreal.
I absolutely loved the look of this building, so i researched it.
hxxp://www.le1000.com/en/mot_direction.asp
Unfortunately, if they only started accepting tenants in 1992, it probably was not built at the time our book was written. So sad.
animal painter
Catherwood,
You are right...built in 1992...It did not occur to me
that it would be that recent...
And it was such a perfect resemblance...
once more into the fray...looking for landmarks
AP
xlurker
Here are some interesting landmarks in Montreal:
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/image.php?id=3743
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/image.php?id=349
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/building/B ... -Henri.php
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/image.php?id=1864
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/image.php?id=2760
cw0909
maybe there is another legeater here, Atherton,California. i ran across this about fiske lamposts, anyone near there to look see
close to sf
3. The largest number of surveyed Inventory items are from the J.L. Mott Iron Works followed by pieces from J.W. Fiske. Seven, mostly lampposts pieces (Inventory pp. 63,77,92,94,97,100,115), are definitely identified as by Mott, while two (pp.74, 89) are possibly Mott or Fiske pieces. Three artifacts are definitely identified with Fiske logos (Inventory pp.54,59,102) and three possibly (Inventory pp. 74,89, 130). However, it is widely recognized that J.W. Fiske did not have the foundry capability to meet demand and that some pieces attributable to Fisk were cast by others. (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_60370500
) The retained consultants were careful to document only Fiske artifacts with a clearly readable logo.
link to info
hxxp://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Wv ... cd=1&gl=us
-----------------------------------------------------
their are three apartment buildings near the st. louis park in motreal, they cover a corner and they look like this
hxxp://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?sea ... &offset=25
and
hxxp://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?sea ... &offset=50
shecrab
Okay, I've kept my mouth shut for a while here, hoping someone might come up with something--but the more I'm reading, the more I'm convinced you guys are getting WAAAY off track.
First things first:
The latitude and longitude of Montreal are 45N, 73W. Nowhere in Image 9 do these numbers appear. Nowhere. St. Louis' Lat/long is 38N 90W. I can't come up with either of THOSE numbers either! If someone can, or I'm completely blind, then please point them out to me--because I cannot see them anywhere.
The numbers I CAN see are these: 39 (a bit iffy--faint, but in the hair), 35, 67, 76 and 77. Putting them together to try to come up with either a St. Louis OR a Montreal location, I can't! But if you input these into Google earth, you CAN come up with a location:
Baltimore Maryland.
Second things second:
The face of the creature in the image has always puzzled me greatly, because it is TWO faces. The left side is a happy face, and the right side is an unhappy one. Now I've done some image shuffling and come up with mirrored images of both Happy and Unhappy faces, here:
Although it is strange looking, the two faces suggest something to me: the masks of Comedy and Tragedy, as depicted in the theatre.
If that's the case, perhaps we are looking for an outdoor theatre? Or a Classical Greek monument?
If you look at a satellite view of Baltimore, there is a park that appears to mimic in size and shape the white part of the collar on the creature's neck: Herring Run Park. If you do minimal research on this you can come up with something interesting: there is an obelisk at the park, which mimics the Washington Monument in shape (white obelisk) and which is dedicated to Christopher Columbus. Also, Edgar Allen Poe is buried nearby under a similiar monument.
Fort McHenry is in Baltimore. Remember McHenry? That's where the verses to The Star Spangled Banner were written--by Francis Scott Key--who wrote them in commemoration of the bombardment there. (BTW: Note the "rocket" in the Happy Face side of the image above!) The line from Verse 11:
last touched and first seen standing
miight just be referring to the flag and the song.
Also, you don't have to give up your ideas about mica and driftwood (which I can't fix to Montreal in any way shape or form) because Baltimore is a seaport. Plenty of sand there. You don't have to ignore the checkerboards on the creature's coat, either--take a look at the state flag of Maryland. The State Flower is a yellow daisy--a black eyed susan. Not quite the aster depicted in the image, but close.
Anyway, there might be more to this...and I think it would be a lot more productive than researching Montreal, which I cannot seem to find a single connection to, despite the pictures in one of the recent posts. In fact, the pictures are no where near enough for me--those types of architectural details can be found almost everywhere there are old houses.
forest_blight
cw - I have a hard time believing there is a casque in Atherton, CA given its proximity to San Francisco. Would there really be two so close to each other? The Barbara Israel article has already been investigated - I wrote to her and had a nice correspondence with her assistant back when I was researching Fiske.
shecrab - I have no trouble believing one of the "hair" numbers is 73, thus indicating Montreal. Look at the right-hand side and turn your book counter-clockwise.
The flower in this pic isn't a daisy - it's a marigold / calendula.
Something everyone - including me - is forgetting is that there should be a Dutch connection with this image.
I do like your star-spangled banner interpretation. Almost as good as the butt-on-a-bench interpretation!
animal painter
Has it been mentioned before, that in the background on the right,
there is, what looks like a snow-covered mountain peak?
AP
shecrab
Unknown:
shecrab - I have no trouble believing one of the "hair" numbers is 73, thus indicating Montreal. Look at the right-hand side and turn your book counter-clockwise.
The flower in this pic isn't a daisy - it's a marigold / calendula.
Well, I only said it was close--I didn't say it was a daisy. (I actually said aster--but calendula is close also.)
However, I'm not buying into the 73. That "7" is not angular enough for me--not when he's made them look more like real 7's elsewhere. He's got two other 7s in that
same image
--and they aren't rounded at all. Besides, there's a clear 5 right of the 3, which makes the number 35, not 73.
I certainly haven't forgotten the Dutch connection. It's another reason I ain't buying Montreal!
scottrocks7
I will be away for a few days but when I get back I will try to figure out if this is or is not STL. If it is STL I will try to dig up the casque if possible or account for where it was should work in the park have destroyed or lost the casque. I am more and more thinking that it is someplace near the pagoda. The one big reason I think this is STL is the lack of other images that could be STL if this is not. I am cautiously optimistic that I have the right area. I will not go for the casque unless I have something more concrete.
One thing for sure if this is STL it will sure turn this forum upsidedown as to some of our therories and could be the death blow to Boston.
I will see ypu in a week
xlurker
New pics of the legeater:
hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/newsite ... erior.html
slappybuns
but ceekay, you just told us not long ago that latitude and longitude weren't reliablly useful in all the images. and there is the dogleg in montreal.
and i just found "grey nuns museum" not far from mount royal as i'm still trying to fit this with verse 10. still looking for a good picture of the museum, if someone finds one please post it, ok? also, this is a good time for everyone to concentrate on the canada cask as forest is going to be there soon, and something we say might hit him when he sees it.
i hadn't noticed the comedy/tragedy side of this image. i still think it looks like the rembrandt portrait
-------------the coloring
and rembrandt was dutch,
lurker, are you in canada?
here's one photo.
hxxp://www.musee-mccord.qc.ca/en/collec ... ection=196
does anyone know what building this one is.......5th row down, middle......
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... f%26sa%3DN
slappybuns
i think that building is the one that the ny empire state building was modeled after.
xlurker
Unfortunately I am near St. Louis, Slappy...lol
cw0909
cw - I have a hard time believing there is a casque in Atherton, CA given its proximity to San Francisco
no i just meant the legeater, i just cant imagine how many of those lamp posts,
are still around and not in some storage area. i know no matter where im at ill,
be looking for a legeater, even if the casque was found. ill look all old lamps just to see
what it has on it
forest_blight
I do the same thing. Occupational (recreational?) hazard, I suppose.
catherwood
cw0909 wrote::
maybe there is another legeater here, Atherton,California. i ran across this about fiske lamposts, anyone near there to look see close to sf
I didn't click thru to read what you've found, but I'm close enough to Atherton to go investigate something -- only if you give me a specific address. I don't want to wander the city looking for random ironworks to catch my attention. (I have a fondness for Atherton because of my first train ride up the peninsula, listening to the announcements of the stops as we came to each city, and the loudspeaker voice drew out the first syllable with a very nasal "Aaaaatherton, next stop Aaaaatherton", it sticks in my memory)
cw0909
hi catherwood link to story
hxxp://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Wv ... cd=1&gl=us
nice offer, dont go out of way though, unless your wondering how many legeaters, are about too.
maybe you could get a copy of list from council, and only if you happen, to be there for
some reason.
slappybuns
xlurker, in the article about ice palace hotel that animal painter mentioned for verse 2, it mentioned the stone walls of old montreal.
johann
I have searched around the Muny in Forest Park (some time ago), and I do not recall a legeater.
If anyone comes to STL, I would love to help.
xlurker
There are just too many stone walls.
But we shall perservere!!
fox
xlurker wrote::
There are just too many stone walls.
So true...
But atleast there is only 1 exact legeater
. This coupled with the knowledge of a for sure Canadian Casque....
xlurker
I found a small stone wall in Montreal
hxxp://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/fortif/ ... depl_a.pdf
animal painter
I saw this in the hair of the image 9 man.
To me it looks like the side view of a moth.
Maybe it will make a connection to one of our possible cities
(like the locust in image 10 is a name of a street)
AP
Jambone
slappybuns wrote::
i found this a little striking:
hxxp://www.artinliverpool.com/blogarch/ ... rtrait.jpg
ckr.com/photos/ash2276/1144165596/
Nice slappy! I am blocked from looking at the pics on flickr at the moment (stupid WebSense), so I don't know what those depict, but I found another self-portrait by Rembrandt that is similar too:
slappybuns
jambone, i've tried finding other references to rembrandt (in montreal, because of the legeater) but i think maybe just that he was Dutch.
i just found the old coat of arms for montreal, do you think it could be the X in the image?
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mtlweblog/191384068/
ravel07
Hi everyone,
I haven't posted anything in two years, but I still read the messageboard from time to time
So today I decided to go back to the location where I found the 'dogleg' - in front of the Mount Stephen Club. I took some more pictures of the doglegs:
I also took pictures of the building itself. I thought these two details were particularly interesting, since they have a flower that looks somewhat like the one in picture 9:
Finally, after walking around in the neighbourhood, I decided to go back to the Mount Stephen Club to see what's directly next to/accross the street from it. And here's a picture of the house that's directly right of it:
I thought it was interesting, since it's not at all like the other buildings in the area... and look at this:
That detail looks a lot like the "X" on Image 9:
I tried getting some information about the house, but I couldn't find any plaque or anything. I think it used to be called "Tudor House" and it was an apartment building with shops on the ground floor; now it seems to just house a restaurant. I don't know when it was built; it might have been after 1982.
Finally, I looked around for other landmarks that could be represented in Image 9. I found this building, which looks like it could be the pattern on the character's collar, but unfortunately it was built in 1992 so that can't be it.
So that's my contribution for the day. For high-quality pictures (and some other I didn't post here), you can check out my flickr:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/77675376@N00/
Please let me know if anyone wants to me to go check out some location in Montreal. I live there about 15 minutes from the downtown area.
animal painter
ravel,
What is the building directly across from the Mount Stephen Club?
It looks like a theater or museum.
AP
ravel07
No, it was directly next to it, to its right.
I didn't seem to me like it has ever been a museum or a theatre. It just looks like a commercial building with apartments on the higher floors.
animal painter
ravel,
If you use the "virtual tour" from the Mount Stephen Club website
and use the club facade view, you can look directly across the street
at this building. Do you know what it is?
AP
ravel07
Yes, it's now a restaurant/apartment building (another one!). But I took a good look at that building and I don't think it was built prior to 1982. My guess is that it was built in the mid 90s. We'd have to look at an old map of Montreal to see what was there in 1982.
animal painter
Ravel,
Thank you for your photos and for looking around
the area for the rest of us. Your finding the
lamppost was indeed a great help!
Thanks again for sharing.
Maybe you can take some photos of the
grassy areas outside the " Stephens Club".
AP
fox
ravel07 wrote::
Yes, it's now a restaurant/apartment building (another one!). But I took a good look at that building and I don't think it was built prior to 1982. My guess is that it was built in the mid 90s. We'd have to look at an old map of Montreal to see what was there in 1982.
With our luck, it probably looked like this.....
slappybuns
ravel07, those are beautiful pictures!
i am so glad you checked back in here!
that dogleg is a great find!
since you live there and are familiar with the area....
what verse are you using for montreal?
do you think it's mount royal park or square st. louis? or somewhere else?
what do you think that shape on the left side of his hat is?
do you think st. andrew's is the reason for the hands....you know, "here's the church, here's the steeple?"
or what do you think the hands mean?
do you think the collar looks like the shape of mount royal park?
i'd been confusing "rhapsodic" with only music, but have found that it could be epic poetry, and i have read of several poets and their monuments, but i think they were in square st. louis....is there any epic poet statue in mount royal park?
as you can see i am trying to fit verse 10 with this, because of the spelling of "grey", which i think canada does and the english............
(hmmmm, which could be image 3.......gave me an idea, i'll post in that thread).
what are your ideas?
sorry to bombard you but it's exciting to have someone in the area!
forest_blight
Good observation, slaps. I never knew there was a national preference for spelling of "gray" vs. "grey." From wikipedia:
"Grey became the established British spelling in the 20th century, pace Dr. Johnson and others,[99] and is but a minor variant in American English, according to dictionaries.
Canadians tend to prefer grey
. Non-cognate greyhound is never grayhound."
ravel07
1) what verse are you using for montreal?
I'm not using any verse. I don't think we have enough clues to conclude that there is actually a casque in mtl or where that casque would be, although if there is one, it would probably be near the Mount Stephen Club. Which is problematic, since there are NO parks whatsoever in that area.
2) do you think it's mount royal park or square st. louis? or somewhere else?
Mount Royal Park is a huge park, and there aren't a lot of recognizable landmarks in it. As for Square St. Louis, I can't see anything that would link it to image 9. I think right now there is no reason to think that the casque would be in either of those locations, since the only clue we have is the dogleg, and both those parks are located pretty far (i.e. not within walking distance) from the dogleg.
3) what do you think that shape on the left side of his hat is?
No idea.
4) do you think st. andrew's is the reason for the hands....you know, "here's the church, here's the steeple?" or what do you think the hands mean?
I looked for a church near the dogleg, but the closest one is located on Sherbrooke St., one block north and a few blocks west of where Mount Stephen Club is located. I found two churches, on either side of a nice apartment building shaped like a castle. I thought it was interesting, but I couldn't link that to image 9 in any way.
5) do you think the collar looks like the shape of mount royal park?
I'd have to look at a map...
6) i'd been confusing "rhapsodic" with only music, but have found that it could be epic poetry, and i have read of several poets and their monuments, but i think they were in square st. louis....is there any epic poet statue in mount royal park?
I could go check it out, but as I said, mount royal park is huge, and if we have no other clue directing us to that park, I don't think I want to spend an entire day looking for some kind of clue...
I might sound unenthusiastic, but really I am. It would be really rad if there was a casque in mtl. And I do think mtl is a good candidate: it has a long history (of immigration, too) and there are a lot of recognizable landmarks. Also, it's a major Canadian city, unlike Sault Ste. Marie (which has been suggested, I have no idea why). My guess is that if there is in fact a casque in Canada, it would be in either Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto or Ottawa. Vancouver is less likely, since as far as immigration goes, I can only think of asian immigraion for Vancouver, and that's already been linked to San Francisco.
But I bet there is another dogleg somewhere... perhaps even in the US.
shecrab
I have said this before, and I know it dampens enthusiasm somewhat, but...
the ONLY recognizable clue in p. 9 is that legeater, and the fact that one has been found in Montreal.
But there is nothing else that even remotely suggests Montreal to me. Not the latitude/longitude, not the shape of the hat, not the checkerboard, not the hands....nothing. The fact that the p. should have a strong connection with the Netherlands also makes it more remote than matching. Where is that connection?
And those hands...come on folks---that's NOT the kid's game "here's the church, etc." When you do that game, you don't cross your fingers, you put the tips together into a point--just like a steeple. And you lock, or interlace your fingers--you don't simply put them close together. the fingers DO suggest something to me---but not that game. They suggest a roof line with crossed gables (I don't know what the term for this is.) A roof where the top part forms an X. I've been working all morning to try to find the name for this style of roof--because I've seen it somewhere, but can't think where.
I know everyone is all enthusiastic about Montreal being the location because the legeater is there. But if the Fiske company made ONE, I'm sure they made MORE than one, and as has been stated, I think they're in the US somewhere.
I am not buying this p. being the Canadian casque unless someone can get more evidence; and so far, that hasn't happened.
forest_blight
You said it, sister. I agree 100% (for once).
I'm still going to visit that lamp next month, though. 8)
animal painter
Quote from page 44 of this thread...
"Finally having something to go on, FB roots up information on J. W. Fiske. Three sources present themselves: (1) 19th-century Fiske catalogs in the Library of Congress and elsewhere, (2) An article by Barbara Israel (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_60370500
) that is very much worth reading, and, mentioned in that article, (3) a living descendant of J. W. Fiske who happens to have, in his possession, sales records for the company.."
FB,
Have you had any contact with the living descendant of J.W. Fiske who has the historic sales info?
I have been corresponding with several historical societies, and none has yet been able to
locate this lamppost in any of their U.S. cities.
Until we find another lamppost, Montreal is our only concrete landmark.
AP
animal painter
Let us also remember that the leg-eater is drawn inside
a "golden square", which is quite a coincidence considering
the "Golden Square Mile" in Montreal...(unless BP is into "red herrings".)
The nearby, Dorchester Square and Place Du Canada, offer park area.
I am open to any other location that can give at least as much confirmation.
AP
forest_blight
Israel was, quite understandably, reluctant to divulge Fiske's contact information. I would dearly love to find his address, though.
animal painter
FB,
In people search, there is a J. Fiske (age 80-something) in the New England area.
Would it be instrusive to try to contact him, ya think?
AP
shecrab
I don't think it would be necessarily intrusive, but you might not get any useful info. Worth a try, though.
Remember....this hunt is over 25 years old. What may have been there in 1982 may NOT be there now. Even if this is the only legeater in the entire known universe, it's not enough evidence for me to base a conclusion on that Montreal is the place. Especially when it's the ONLY piece of evidence!
forest_blight
shecrab - I'm not convinced it's Montreal, either. The point of contacting Fiske would be to see if he still has 19th century sales records for that particular piece, and that in turn may lead us to other cities where similar bases can be found.
forest_blight
Intrusive? Nah, the worst he can do is ignore us.
So... I'll volunteer to write to him, if you can PM me his address.
fox
ravel07 wrote::
And I do think mtl is a good candidate: it has a long history (of immigration, too) and there are a lot of recognizable landmarks.
But I bet there is another dogleg somewhere... perhaps even in the US.
The long history of immigration is sure a nice tidbit of information.
You find that other dogleg somewhere, perhaps in the U.S. and I will stop obsessing with Montreal.
cw0909
hi i got an answer to one of my emails, sorry to say not good news on legeater, following the email
i do have some aspects of the legeater, but not the legeater in p-9, but im sure there is one in u.s.a.
now, somewhere, the hunt is on
if someone could figure out how to label the legeater, it might be found here
hxxp://www.patentstorm.us/patents/64746 ... ption.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Connie,
The two order books from J.W. Fiske Iron Works contain brief entries. I’ve quickly looked through and items are not described in detail. I did see two entries for lamp posts, but no other information as to a certain type or design. The entries are in pencil and many crossed out, making them difficult to read.
You’re welcome to visit the library Monday-Friday 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. to view the order books.
Jeanne Solensky
Librarian
Winterthur Library
Downs Collection of Manuscripts
and Printed Ephemera
302-888-4853
302-888-3367 fax
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
links to pics
A
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mnsomero/2 ... 4/sizes/o/
B
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/micki_hill ... 9/sizes/l/
these lamps are at the new york public library
animal painter
cw0909,
In making reference to the lampposts, Forest Blight was told
that the catalog number for this style was shown as #470.
Would the order books the librarian looked at maybe make
that connection?
AP
I see that Atherton, CA has "streetview" on Google.
You can actually "walk around" the whole town and look
at the sides of the roads.
Here is a picture of one of the lampposts in Atherton.
(Looks like a "Fiske" to me...but not a legeater)
It is in the "historic district" which is bounded by
Middlefield Rd, Marsh Rd, Bay Rd, and Ringwood Ave.
You can walk through the entire neighborhood to see
if any of the other lampposts are the legeater.
(There are seven according to the Historic Artifacts Inventory)
The other pictures show where this lamppost is located
and a map of the entire neighborhood in Atherton.
Flood Circle is the heart of the historic district.
AP
cw0909
Unknown:
Unknown:
cw0909,
In making reference to the lampposts, Forest Blight was told
that the catalog number for this style was shown as #470.
thanks ap for info will ask, who knows
i like your walk around Atherton.
fox
I just wanted to say that I have no problem searching for another legeater possibly in the US....but, I really hope we dont abandon research in and around the ONLY location where we have an EXACT match.
animal painter
Rest easy, Fox...
As far as I am concerned,Montreal is still on top of the search list.
BP did say that Canada is a definite "yes" for a casque...right?
Mount Stephen Club's legeater is a solid, concrete, definite perfect
match to image 9....with parks within walking distance.
AP
scottrocks7
I'M back!!!
And I am not even going to begin to discuss the legeater
.
While it is good to discuss possible alternatives I still think this image goes to STL. I will be writeing the Missourie Historical Society again soon. What I am about to write is what to me is the most likely interpritation.
To start with the the checkardboard pateren. The dominent amount of this in the image is a key clue. If I rember correctly one of you said that this identical pateren was at that time just outside of the entrance to Forest Park. It is likely that the entrance closest to that pateren was the closest entrance to the casque's location. I think the outline of the eastren border of MO is on the right side of the hat. I think the arch is hidden near the eye. The half smile half frown of the mouth likely makes reference to an outdoor theater makeing it look like verse 6 may match. I agree with you that the Black Colar is the Old Courthouse upsidedown. Now the key here is to turn the image upsidedown. Some of you think and I partly agree with you that the jewel box is hidden in the chest area of the image. This may be true but I feal strongly that the checkarboard area on the chest area are the arms extended bar that binds and I think this is what ties the image to verse 6. I will analyse the verse soon. The flower and what looks like a golf flag are likely correct interpritations. Both of which are likely indicaters of the 10th month.
I am not sure what the thing that looks like a backward musicnote. It could be a STL Blues logo with the flag turned backward similer to the upsidedown chicago bulls logo. You all have showen me side by sides of the backward musicnote and STL Blues logo and I agree it does not look that similer.
The their's the legeater
I am not going to get into that here but my guess is that it is a clue to the World's Fair.
That brings us to the hands. I would say they are one of three things In the order of likelyhood I think they are: the World's Fair Pavillion, The Pagoda Circle or The Muney Theater.
I will analyse the verse soon. It will take the MO Historical Society to confirm all of this. If it all works out and we find the casque We should let them have it if they want for all the help they have given us.
It looks like alot of us are close to STL. If we get something more concrete maybe we can all get together at the park and dig sometime.
animal painter
This photo was sent to me by the "Boston By Foot" tour guide.
It is of the main entrance of the Boston Public Library, where two
lampposts are almost hidden away in the corners. They have a
great similarity to our Mount Stephen Club lamppost, with the globe on top.
The resolution is not great, so I cannot enlarge for detail on the bases.
Maybe someone in Boston can check this out.
AP
From a distance, I cannot determine if they are the same legeater
that Trohn found in the BPL.
(shown further down)
animal painter
Forest,
hxxp://www.jstor.org/pss/1593895
Here is a link to an article with reference to a book: "Boston Public Library, A Centennial History"
by Walter Muir Whitehill
You may be able to find it in your university library...(or there would most likely be a copy in the BPL).
It may have a pictorial history of the Library...and surrounding area.
AP
cw0909
ap if you go here and zoom, near the lions in the corner their are posts, and they
seem to look like the one trohn found. no veiw from same as pic you posted, thinking all posts
are the same
hxxp://www.panoramamagazine.com/virtual ... 0Entrance/
forest_blight
Here are some more shots of those lamps:
So, not as good a match as the Montreal lamps, but still... what a coincidence!
animal painter
Back to the drawing board...
Thanks cw0909 and FB for your quick responses...
AP
forest_blight
AP, it's an article, not a book. I'm not really supposed to do this, but since it's not for profit and you could call this a personal scholarly pursuit, I'll post it here:
whitehill_1970.pdf
EDIT: For some reason, I can't download the file or read it online, yet I have no trouble opening it on my own computers. PM me if you want a copy.
EDIT: Thanks for the sharp eyes eljayo! Corrected.
animal painter
FB,
Thanks for trying...
I went to Amazon and typed in Boston historic landmarks and architecture.
Whew!! There are a lot of books about those subjects !
Just have to find those that include 1980 photos.
AP
shecrab
You know, I had an idea too...that perhaps J. W. Fiske was one of the original exhibitors at the St. Louis World's Fair--(Louisiana Purchase Exposition 1904).
Sadly, he wasn't.
Ah well......
eljayo
forest_blight wrote::
AP, it's an article, not a book. I'm not really supposed to do this, but since it's not for profit and you could call this a personal scholarly pursuit, I'll post it here:
whitehill_1970.pdf
EDIT: For some reason, I can't download the file or read it online, yet I have no trouble opening it on my own computers. PM me if you want a copy.
FB, there is a missing "i" in your link... the correct one is:
hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/whitehill_1970.pdf
forest_blight
Good grief - thanks! I've gone back and corrected the link.
animal painter
That is some article!
Thanks Eljayo and FB!
slappybuns
animal_ painter pointed out that the leg eater in the image is inside a golden square, like golden square mile in montreal.
in the image the leg is outside the square, and when i look at a map, it looks to me like mount st. stephen's club is right outside the golden square mile.
is this how you all see it?
i saw a picture of the steps going up the mountain, it even said "zig zags sur le mont royal" and "stairway to heaven" (on google earth)
couldn't the zig zag steps be the neck of the dress?
here's a picture:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/appaloosa/53748665/
ravel07, are these steps on the other side of the big cross?
that's not quite what i mean......are they across the mountain or park, on opposite sides of the park from each other?
ravel07
I believe they are only one one side, i.e. the one close(ish) to the Mount Stephen Club. As it says in the text below the picture, they start on des Pins St. at the end of Peel St., which is pretty far (about five big blocks) from Mount Stephen. And if you look on Google Map, they do zig zag, but not really in the shape of the collar.
forest_blight
Okay, I just wrote a nice letter (on real paper!) to J. W. Fiske. I was able to get his P.O. box from someone who knew it. Again, the hope is that he will be able to simply look up who else purchased lamp bases like the ones in Montreal.
The ideal situation would be if:
1. J. W. Fiske & Co. made the lamp base (not at all certain)
2. Mr. Fiske still has 19th-century J. W. Fiske sales records
3. Only a handful of the lamps were manufactured
4. He can supply us with shipping addresses for them
My hopes will probably be dashed, but what a coup if he comes through for us!
animal painter
FB,
I am optimistic about your letter getting a positive response.
What an exciting letter that will be to receive...concerning an ancestor...
and to get the opportunity to be a part of a national treasure hunt!
Who could resist? Maybe one of his own children or grandchildren
will get involved.
AP
forest_blight
Thanks for the optimism, AP! I hope he catches the bug.
xlurker
This is interesting for the St. Louis seekers and looks a lot like the ring and middle fingers. This was ordered/constructed around 1980-March 1982 and is a few blocks west of the Arch. If you check it out on google earth there is an interesting building across the street but I have no idea about the history of the bldg. The sculpture is named "Twain".
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN
I was thinking that the index fingers may simply be telling us to put the "insets" back into the map (squares). Not that i have a clue as to where or how.
maltedfalcon
xlurker wrote::
This is interesting for the St. Louis seekers and looks a lot like the ring and middle fingers. This was ordered/constructed around 1980-March 1982
But therefore wasnt constructed until the following year after the casques were placed and all the clues were written...
xlurker
I am not sure how long it was in the planning stage. There was much controversy over it.
animal painter
Xlurker...
I see what you mean about
"putting the insets back in".
That is a very original idea
that may help us to locate
these places on a larger "map".
Good thinking!
I see that the yellow border around the
legeater is like having a magnifying glass
on the far right bottom square in the corner.
(as if BP is telling us that the legeater is
in that location on the map...in relationship to
the "golf flag" square.)
See how the "golf flag"square is superimposed over the border,
while the legeater square is actually outlined by
part
of the border
AP
scottrocks7
forest_blight wrote::
My hopes will probably be dashed, but what a coup if he comes through for us!
Maybe but the bigger hope of finding the casque may come true. I think I am close and you may have helped me see another important clue in the verse I think matches this.
cw0909
hi ap i read your post
Re: image 9
« Reply #853 on: August 08, 2008, 06:17:19 pm »
and as luck would have it, a friend stopped by, while i was looking at p-9 and your
post. he is a golfer, golfing is like you golf or dont golf, i gather. and im not a golfer.
anyway he took the golf flag you mentioned, as PX1 a golf club, used back before 1982
for golfing a dogleg course, or a dogleg part of a course, dude did not think twice
about what he saw in p-9 with the dogleg and the px1, he told me he paid $100.00 for a
ping something club about 2 year ago, i asked why the jewel, would be where it is at,
he said end of the course. we did not have time to look at course, on net or go over verses
i sent him the p-9 and the verses txt, to look at. below are some links, you decide, oh yea
i showed him the legeater pic, his thought was maybe bp is a member of the club, and
just put it together, to make it a little fuzzy and harder to find, or used a golf course and park
in montreal, i like golf course and park in montreal, would connect the legeater better.
hxxp://www.pinggolf.com/about/default.aspx
hxxp://www.golf-architecture-made-easy.com/Doglegs.html
hxxp://www.lastminutegolfer.com/Course/ ... urseID=694
slappybuns
lol, that was one of my old theories, that preiss used hiding the casks to his wife so that he could go play golf!! i had noticed there were golf courses in all the parks we were looking at and i'm sure everyone was scoffing at me!!
i really like this being a dogleg for golf because of the golf flag. good post cw0909!
that was pretty interesting about the golf course being built where the 1904 World's Fair had taken place in Forest Park....as that has been mentioned before....
looks like 3 doglegs on that course
maltedfalcon
I'll tell you why Im pretty sure the image does not refer to px-1 a golf club.
Byron Priess was a professional.
The PX-1 is a trademark patented product. to refer to it in his hunt, he would legally need to put a trademark symbol anyplace he used it.
There are so many other things that can be used to infer golf, fairways, tee's etc..
So why open that can of legalese
I admit it looks like a golf flag. and then an X and 1 or a 7 more like a 7 to me,
so is this a px-1 or a px-7?
but the dogleg, is not a dogleg. Its the leg on a lamp in montreal. so there is a very low connection factor to golf here, 1 the flag, 2 the fingers (sort of not exactly) and 3 the dogleg which is actually not a dogleg.
but that does make me curious, is there a golfcourse near the legeater in Montreal?
slappybuns
i think i read fletcher's field was the first golf course in north america, and i think that was at the southern end of mont royal, but then it was moved somewhere else.......how do you move a golf course?..........i better look it up again.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Montreal_Golf_Club
oops, oldest golf club, not oldest golf course
cw0909
Re: image 9
« Reply #857 on: Yesterday at 01:22:10 pm »
maltedfalcon i thought about the trademark too, i looked up g courses and found these 2 things
hxxp://www.golfcourselistings.ca/Quebec ... oulin.html
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photos/origina ... .jpg
not sure if this lamps have same leg
so i started something else................
i was trying to find a dutch connection, to the found area of the legeater
the only thing i found was a story/ sorry lost link/ about how the
dutch elm bug, destroyd thousands of trees, and these trees, were
felled in 80,81,82,83,and the news of the bug was a big topic in
montreal in 81,82. im thinking that is not the connection, we are looking for.
so i thought dutch, maybe pa. as the dutch are famous there, talked to a trover
from 12,and dar site, genetic blend/she is from pa. she thought look around
for that style of building, since it looks the same in pic, as the legeater building.
so far nothing, thought i would share what i have found though. at the link
there is more on the site about montreal, i was just looking
for that style of building, thinking maybe another, legeater would show up.
as the area has the most concentration, of the Second Empire style and
sometimes refered to as Parisian style architecture
which is what type of building/house is, where the legeater is.
i havent had time to do live search, of the area or google street view
hxxp://www.planetware.com/montreal/old- ... u-qumv.htm
at this link is Hotel de Ville, Montreal, Quebec, in old montreal the two
lamps on the steps, look something like the top, of the legeater
lamp post, i think havent looked at it in awhile.
hxxp://canada.archiseek.com/quebec/mont ... e_lge.html
and some listings in st louis,mo. made my heart jump a beat, when i saw
forest parks keepers house, but as far as i can see, no legeater at the
keepers house. and not a lot of pics of the buildings listed.
with the name i guess pics could be found, if your looking for them.
hxxp://stlcin.missouri.org/history/structqueryout.cfm
home link of above link
hxxp://stlcin.missouri.org/history/index.cfm
cw0909
Re: image 9
« Reply #828 on: August 01, 2008, 11:37:20 pm »
ie.. pg 56
i got a reply from Jeanne Solensky the Librarian from the Winterthur Library
the entry says only lamp posts, nothing else, i was hoping for more.
scottrocks7
I'M back!!!
My computer broke down and had to be replaced. During that time I thought much about all of these Images and Verses.
I think this image is definently STL. I have went over the clues I think I saw in earlier posts but in addition to all of thoes reasons another reason I think this is STL is because none of the other unconfirmed images realisticly seem to indicate STL. By unconfirmed we have not found something concreter to confirm a city.
The park is almost definately Forest Park. This can be confirmed by seeing if any other Park in the city had the checkard board image around 1980. The area of the park is either the Muny/Pagoda Circle area or the World's Fair Pavillion area. I think the former is the more likely of the two.
I think the matching verse is Verse 6. I think the Image to Verse Match is"arms extended bar that binds". I think that is hidden upsidedown as the checker pateren in the chest area. The legeater is likely, if this is all correct, a clue to the Pagoda Muny or the World's Fair.
One thing that concerns me though is that I have looked at several photos of the Pagoda and airial photos of the muny and pagoda and have not seen anything that looks like arms extended bar that binds. However I do not think the Pagoda area is exactly the area. The one thing that reassured me was no fountains near the pagoda. I think the dig site can or atleast at one time could be seen not from the pagoda but from the fountain near the muny. The fountain is almost definately what the "cool clear song of water" is. Thoes of you that live close enough to STL may want to go out to forest park and see what can be seen from the fountain. It is likely the pagoda can be seen from the correct site. If you do not find anything but the middle section of the verse confirms the are then we will need to review the parks landscapeing records to try to find the place to dig.
It is important not to do any digging though without clearing it with the appropriate park authorities. I promised the MO Historical Library none of us would do any digging without appropriate permission.
I will run all this by the Historical Library soon. I was composeing an e-Mail to them when my old Computer went down. I will offer them the Casque if found. If it was not for them we would likely not have found this.
maltedfalcon
ok see my post this morning in the chicago thread.
lets assume for a moment that the legeater is the iconic image in image 9
and it indicates montreal.
That means rue drummond is the road we have to follow.
one direction it dead ends in a building
the other it dead ends into Mount royal park.
so now which verse...
lets wiki mount royal park
The mountain consists of three peaks: Colline de la Croix (or Mont Royal proper) at 233 metres (764 ft), Colline d'Outremont (or Mount Murray, in the borough of Outremont ) at 211 metres (692 ft), and Westmount mount at 201 metres (659 ft) elevation above mean sea level. At this height, it might be otherwise
hmmm 3 high points... You probably see where I am going with this...
At stone wall's door Is there a stone wall and door at the intersection of rue drummond and mount royal park?
The air smells sweet well it is a park...
Not far away
High posts are three see above...
Education and Justice
For all to see
----------------------Other features of the park
well-known monument to Sir George-Étienne Cartier. During his long career he promoted the establishment of the Civil Code as the formal law of Canada East. He also promoted the introduction of primary education in the province
Is there anybody actually on the ground in montreal on this list???
love to see if there are any other possible links...
scottrocks7
It is possible that this image goes to Montreal. We know one casque is in Canada and one casque is in St. Louis. The thing is 8 of these images we have found definate information for a city. We may not know the exact park or verse but we know the city. of the four we do not have a definate city match on one is definately in Florida. that leaves three images one goes to STL one goes to Canada. If this goes to Montreal though the other two images do not indicate STL as much as this one. In the rare event this is Mointereal then the Metalman image is likely STL.
maltedfalcon
but there is that dang legeater...
so besides the checkerboards which remind of purina.
what about this image specifically says STL and not just "might" say STL.
ie the water tower -in chicago
and the building in cleveland.
and the rebus that says milwaukee.
is there a lat/lon or a map? or an exact image? something like that?
forest_blight
How about a picture of the Arch and the Mississippi River right in front of our noses?
Look close:
slappybuns
ahhh, the arched eyebrow!
forest_blight
My point exactly. What better place to hide an arch? And nothing says "St. Louis" like the Gateway Arch.
xlurker
Since I can't seem to post an image any more:
hxxp://www.fidnet.com/~debbil/TheSecret.html
forest_blight
xlurker - can you tell us where you found the building with the "x"?
maltedfalcon
cant argue with an arch
xlurker
FB,
The X is part of a fence on the Loyola campus of Concordia if I remember right. I can find it again on google 3d when I get home if you wish.
I am home now:
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/3075658
It faces Sherbrooke. Loyola Chapel.
slappybuns
great pictures xlurker!
and yeah, is that x on the road to mont royal?
and your idea with the blob is a lot better than mine, i just see ziggy or a weeble in a tank.
xlurker
Thx slappy. The X is southwest from the legeater and NOT on the way to Mont Royal, but very close to the same street as the legeater.. almost.. kinda.. lol.
I would really like to know if that looks like a whale to anyone else tho??????
maltedfalcon
Anyone have access to/ know any one in Montreal?
Didnt somebody say they are going to Montreal soon?
I have a solve for the Montreal Casque using image 9 and verse 7, I'm pretty sure its accurate
but we wont know till somebody digs...
This is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak , I have said the important thing is not who digs it up
but that the casques are found - on the other hand when you dig it up (whoever you are) if you want to send it to me that would be just fine!
Now this is wonderful news to me because that means the the SF casque was not destroyed by the irrigation pipe.
So The Iconic image in p9 is the legeater- Its unique enough that you would know it if you lived in/around montreal...
so look at the street it is on, Rue Drummond. heading east is a building,
heading west you arrive at Mount Royal Park as a matter of fact you run right into the start of a windy path... (thanks googlemaps!)
Cool lets jump to the verse.....
but first go back and notice that the cleveland verse is not chronological, as a matter of fact, the first step, (find the columns) is the last part of the verse...)
Verse 7
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Not far away
High posts are three
Education and Justice
For all to see
Sounds from the sky
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept.
So we enter the park at rue drummond. and start wandering up the path...
Not far away
High posts are three -
Mount royal is made up of three peaks, each with an antennae
Education and Justice
For all to see -
The main monument in the park is dedicated to Sir George-Étienne Cartier. During his long career he promoted the establishment of the Civil Code as the formal law of Canada East. He also promoted the introduction of primary education in the province.
Sounds from the sky
As a matter of fact, the largest radio/TV broadcast tower in the city is straight above us at this point
Near ace is high
Atop the Cartier monument is an Angel -she is posed as she is running. she faces to the north
Running north, but first across -
Behind her is a large Cross on the eastern most peak (which is just above us)
we keep following the path upward... until we come to a stone wall surrounded by a the forest...
Look there in the stone wall there is a gate. go through it.
You are now in a yard enclosed by a stone wall, The area is overgrown and while not a garden has lots of flowering plants.
this is the monument to a man name McTavish.
The monument stands in the center of the yard, it is a giant Pole...
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept.
Yes but which direction...
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
The New York Times, December 10, 1881
MARK TWAIN IN MONTREAL
There was a very pleasant gathering of gentlemen at the banquet given Mr. Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain) at the Windsor Hotel, in Montreal, on Thursday evening.
Mark Twain was invited to speak at the opening of a fancy new hotel, The windsor hotel - now an office building called Le Windsor, is just a block or two north of the legeater. the street it is on runs parallel to rue Drummond and actually is the street exactly adjacent to the spot we are in the park. or S/SE
So in short - my solution is...
go to the legeater
head NW up the street to Mount Royal Park
head up the path it winds around.
and comes to the McTavish Monument enter the monument
put your back on the S/SE side of the monument -or facing downtown
take one Giant Step and dig......
Now the bad news...
In June the City announced they had awarded a contract to have the stone wall rebuilt and the monument and its grounds restored....
so if we want to dig this up we need to move fast....
forest_blight
I will print this and take it with me when I scale Mount Royal next month.
forest_blight
Here is a map of the locations malted mentioned:
fox
falcon, I really like all of your tie ins except for one. You really didnt explain what "Near Ace is high" means. You listed that but then went on to explain the "Running north but first a+cross" which I really like...
fox
I am still looking for an image of this McTavish Monument. I found a verrrrrry small image that I can not seem to open but it does look
pole-like. I have found several references including this one which talks of the garden. The last line seems much less than Giant though...
"Simon McTavish of Garthbeg died in early 6 July 1804 in Montreal, Lower Canada from an illness that supposedly started with a cold while supervising the contruction of his mansion on a slope of Mount Royal. McTavish was buried at the foot of Mount Royal in the garden of his half-finished mansion, leaving a young wife and four children. The city never protected the spot, so the family about 40 years later transferred the remains to another place that remains a secret. Today, a
small
monument marks the original resting place, even though he is not there."
AND
" In his book, British America, published in 1820, John McGregor, writes about the original grave site which had been marked with a pillar as a "retired and beautiful spot, a pretty path winds among the trees. McTavish used frequently to sit for hours reading on this spot, where, on his death bed, he requested to be buried." A
small
cairn erected in 1942 marks the site, but does little to explain how important McTavish was to the neighbourhood. "
fox
hxxp://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/f ... 06335425b4
fox
Is this the one?
not anything like the tiny image I saw...
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
Look there in the stone wall there is a gate. go through it.
You are now in a yard enclosed by a stone wall, The area is overgrown and while not a garden has lots of flowering plants.
this is the monument to a man name McTavish.
The monument stands in the center of the yard, it is a giant Pole...
Where did you get this description?
Check this overhead of PMR...{too big to attach as photo}
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/djipibi/2450709402/sizes/o/
There sure is a Giant Pole here but I do not think it is the McTavish Monument
slappybuns
oh wow malted!! this is exciting!
ravel07 lives there! wake up ravel07!
xlurker, someone else has brought up beluga whales, i remember reading about it, but i'm not sure which image.
it does look like a whale like that....
what about "the air smells sweet". i know it said he was buried in the garden of the half finished mansion. is the garden still there? or the mansion?
here's a timeline for mont royal park......it doesn't mention mctavish,
hxxp://www.lemontroyal.qc.ca/en_anniversaire/5.html
is there a magnolia road or something for that line?
forest,
after bp's golf game, he didn't want to walk up the mountain so he buried it at the foot.
ravel07
is this burial ground well known?
forest_blight
Yes fox, that's the McTavish Monument, but I couldn't view it from your message. I had to paste the url directly:
hxxp://lh4.ggpht.com/_k9NvPRetjBw/R8iXGZF2pRI/AAAAAAAABmI/6s4msDRDxLc/IMG_5756.jpg
xlurker
Looks like a perfect place!!! WTG!!
hxxp://www.musee-mccord.qc.ca/scripts/p ... eID=186383
hxxp://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/colle ... ection=196
forest_blight
When was the pole monument taken down? If it was before 1981, there is no reason to consider this site likely.
Egbert
Hmmm. Most of it fits. Could be the place. Certainly worth a look.
1. I am with Fox on not seeing "near ace is high."
2. Also, Education and Justice are capitalized, which would seem to represent 2 distinct objects (or words), not just a reference to someone who has a connection with education and law.
3. I do not see how "peaks" can be viewed as "posts," and I bet BP literally meant "posts."
4. The verse refers to an "object" of Twain's attention, not a meeting place. I would think it refers to something like a steamboat, or the Mississippi River, or something like that.
Good luck, though!
ravel07
I'm here! I'm excited! I don't have much time right now to review the solve or go to Mount Royal, but I'll do it as soon as I can. Probably Sunday or Monday.
Good work guys!!
slappybuns
hah! here's a lion at mont royal, lol
"To avoid excessive competition in the fur trade of the North West these Montreal trading firms pooled their interests in 1782 to form the North West Company, among the partners being Todd, McGill, the Frobishers, Alexander Henry and, at their head, “The OId Lion of Montreal” Simon McTavish. "
shecrab
There is an actual lion monument there, as well...it looks exactly like the Milwaukee lion bridge lion,and also reminded me of the Charleston picture.
heh heh...
boogieman
Unknown:
From Maltedfalcon:
So The Iconic image in p9 is the legeater- Its unique enough that you would know it if you lived in/around montreal...
so look at the street it is on, Rue Drummond. heading east is a building,
heading west you arrive at Mount Royal Park as a matter of fact you run right into the start of a windy path... (thanks googlemaps!)
I don't think everyone in Montreal knows about the lamp post. I thought Ravel just happened upon it one day.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I like what you've done with the verse.
But there is nothing else in Image9 that says "Montreal" except that legeater.
That would be great to solve this with just the verse and lamp post!
FB, are we missing a post in this thread? What happened to the pole?
forest_blight
Unknown:
FB, are we missing a post in this thread? What happened to the pole?
I inferred its absence from one of Fox's posts last night. I hope I'm wrong.
scottrocks7
You can check Montreal. The thing is I think we are makeing too much focus on the legeater. I am open to other ideas but for now I think this goes to STL and goes to Forest Park. I also think this goes to the Muny/Pagoda Circle area. I will be busy through Wednesday then I will focus on trying to find this. I think if this is where I think this is it may still be found!! Alot of construction was done near the pagoda but I do not think it is in the area of the pagoda but someplace that can be seen from the fountain near the Muny.
I will need the help of you members in the STL area. We will likely need to look at park records of the area and maybe some of you closer can work more closely with the historical library to help confirm this.
And hey FB if we unearth this before you go to Montreal will you boke around in Ottawa for me?
slappybuns
has anyone been able to find out when the pole monument was taken out?
it is just a rectangular stone marker now. it says restored by the the city of montreal 1942.....i'm not sure if that means that it was gone then or what....
hxxp://www.peterpondsociety.com/news5.html
the old picture xlurker found was perfect.
catherwood
slappybuns wrote::
has anyone been able to find out when the pole monument was taken out?
it is just a rectangular stone marker now. it says restored by the the city of montreal 1942.....i'm not sure if that means that it was gone then or what....
I do believe the restoration is what removed the column. I found this (in .pdf form but google lets me view it as .html)
"In the 1940s, the column in memory of Simon McTavish was taken down and replaced with a more modest stone. "
hxxp://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/ocpm/p ... ort_en.pdf
maltedfalcon
In the late 1980's the area was subjected to heavy flash flooding, I believe the pole was topled at that point.
The area had not been touched /worked on since the 1950s and the pole was there in the 60s.
ergo it would have been there when the book was published.
animal painter
So Mount Royal Park is another "Olmsted" park...
Here is a link...(you have to scan down the page)
that includes all of Olmsted's commissions...
Did BP have a preference for Olmsted Parks?
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_ ... ommissions
maltedfalcon
Egbert wrote::
Hmmm. Most of it fits. Could be the place. Certainly worth a look.
1. I am with Fox on not seeing "near ace is high."
2. Also, Education and Justice are capitalized, which would seem to represent 2 distinct objects (or words), not just a reference to someone who has a connection with education and law.
3. I do not see how "peaks" can be viewed as "posts," and I bet BP literally meant "posts."
4. The verse refers to an "object" of Twain's attention, not a meeting place. I would think it refers to something like a steamboat, or the Mississippi River, or something like that.
1 Near meaning nearby but not adjacent to the stone wall area, just over the top of the hill to the east.
Ace as in A - A as in angel atop the monument. possibly a week link, but definitely running north and behind her or you would pass it first on the way to see her is a large cross.
2 the most well known monument in the park dedicated to a man famous for both Education and Justice. perhaps a closer look at the inscription on the monument will clarify
check out the last 2 lines
Sir George-Étienne Cartier, (September 6, 1814- May 20, 1873) was a French-Canadian politician and a “Father of Confederation”. In the years leading up to the 1867 Confederation, Cartier was a dominant figure in the politics of Canada East (now the province of Quebec). In 1838 he returned to Montreal after a year in exile for his role in la “Rebellion”. Cartier had several reasons for supporting Confederation, notably his fear of American’s Manifest Destiny and expansion. He officially entered politics in 1848. During his long career he promoted the establishment of the Civil Code as the formal law of Canada East. He also promoted the introduction of mandatory primary education in the province.
3 posts -there are two logical choices. pick one.
a on each of the summits there is an antennae - high posts are 3...
b on the summit directly above the site, the antenna is a special kind it is called a candelabra antenna- in other words it starts as a single column goes up and then there are 3 separate antennas on that one antenna, (this is actually the one I believe is correct.
4 Twain was specifically invited to montreal to view and speak about the hotel. the object of his attention in montreal is the hotel... he wrote a speech about it and it was a big deal at the time and is still obviously local montreal lore.
hows that?
forest_blight
scottrocks7 wrote::
And hey FB if we unearth this before you go to Montreal will you boke around in Ottawa for me?
Ha! If I had a car I might, but I'm doing this trip on foot (with the help of an airplane to get me there and back).
maltedfalcon
examining the image for related montreal stuff,
The white edge of the right hand side of the color matches the river along the section of montreal where the legeater is....
fox
I think the
Pole
was long gone before BP began his Secret. If not...hmmmmm...
If this is the spot, I really don't think
a) BP would enter this small area and bury a casque and
b) expect us to enter a small area specifically created as a memorial or monument and dig dig dig.
There is however, one more solution if this is the correct spot. Instead of being inside {which the V kind of sounds like} how about outside the wall? I'm not sure how big this little enclosure is but maybe our Giant Step equals that from the
Pole
to the wall...thereby, we stand outside of the correct (SE?) wall and dig.
These are simply some ideas although I am still sold on this V going to N.O.
fox
I think the Pole was long gone before BP began his Secret. If not...hmmmmm...
If this is the spot, I really don't think
a) BP would enter this small area and bury a casque and
b) expect us to enter a small area specifically created as a memorial or monument and dig dig dig.
There is however, one more solution if this is the correct spot. Instead of being inside {which the V kind of sounds like} how about outside the wall? I'm not sure how big this little enclosure is but maybe our Giant Step equals that from the Pole to the wall...thereby, we stand outside of the correct (SE?) wall and dig.
These are simply some ideas although I am still sold on this V going to N.O.
slappybuns
malted,
how do you know the pole was there in the '60's?
slappybuns
malted,
how do you know the
pole
was there in the '60's?
Egbert
maltedfalcon wrote::
1 Near meaning nearby but not adjacent to the stone wall area, just over the top of the hill to the east.
Ace as in A - A as in angel atop the monument. possibly a week link, but definitely running north and behind her or you would pass it first on the way to see her is a large cross.
2 the most well known monument in the park dedicated to a man famous for both Education and Justice. perhaps a closer look at the inscription on the monument will clarify
check out the last 2 lines
Sir George-Étienne Cartier, (September 6, 1814- May 20, 1873) was a French-Canadian politician and a “Father of Confederation”. In the years leading up to the 1867 Confederation, Cartier was a dominant figure in the politics of Canada East (now the province of Quebec). In 1838 he returned to Montreal after a year in exile for his role in la “Rebellion”. Cartier had several reasons for supporting Confederation, notably his fear of American’s Manifest Destiny and expansion. He officially entered politics in 1848. During his long career he promoted the establishment of the Civil Code as the formal law of Canada East. He also promoted the introduction of mandatory primary education in the province.
3 posts -there are two logical choices. pick one.
a on each of the summits there is an antennae - high posts are 3...
b on the summit directly above the site, the antenna is a special kind it is called a candelabra antenna- in other words it starts as a single column goes up and then there are 3 separate antennas on that one antenna, (this is actually the one I believe is correct.
4 Twain was specifically invited to montreal to view and speak about the hotel. the object of his attention in montreal is the hotel... he wrote a speech about it and it was a big deal at the time and is still obviously local montreal lore.
hows that?
I'll give you a pass on 2,3, and 4, but there is no way you are convincing me that Ace=A=Angel.
I hope you find it, though!
maltedfalcon
slappybuns wrote::
malted,
how do you know the pole was there in the '60's?
speaking to a canadian at work who says he remembers it from his childhood. tenuous, but all I've got.
maltedfalcon
slappybuns wrote::
malted,
how do you know the
pole
was there in the '60's?
speaking to a canadian at work who says he remembers it from his childhood. tenuous, but all I've got.
maskit
I've been lurking, but trying to catch up to you all.
Catherwood posted a link yesterday in this thread that confirmed the Column (
pole
) was removed in the 1940's.
Here is the quote:
"The Peel entrance, the main access to Parc du Mont-Royal from its southern flank and from downtown, was developed when the park was first established. Originally designed to provide calèche and pedestrian access to the summit, it is criss-crossed by a gravel road, the Serpentin, leading from Des Pins Avenue to Olmsted Road. Very few changes have been made to this section of the park since its creation.
In the 1940s, the column in memory of Simon McTavish was taken down and replaced with a more modest stone
. During the ’60s, a pedestrian path and stairs were added at the centre of the Serpentin."
Try this different link for more reallly good current photographs and information on the Mctavish site. (Turns out it is also haunted.)
hxxp://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/ocpm/pdf/P20e/5a.pdf
The marker is near the stone wall that separates the park from the parking lot of Royal Victoria Hospital. I'm pretty sure the parking lot is number
P7
. I have no idea if this lot was there when the book was written or if it was even numbered in the same way then. Just thought I would post it in case it is a match to the P7 in the picture.
I really love maltedfalcon's idea of following a straight line from the iconic image. Maybe Mont Royal Park is correct, just not the Mctavish monument?
maskit
I've been lurking, but trying to catch up to you all.
Catherwood posted a link yesterday in this thread that confirmed the Column (pole) was removed in the 1940's.
Here is the quote:
"The Peel entrance, the main access to Parc du Mont-Royal from its southern flank and from downtown, was developed when the park was first established. Originally designed to provide calèche and pedestrian access to the summit, it is criss-crossed by a gravel road, the Serpentin, leading from Des Pins Avenue to Olmsted Road. Very few changes have been made to this section of the park since its creation.
In the 1940s, the column in memory of Simon McTavish was taken down and replaced with a more modest stone
. During the ’60s, a pedestrian path and stairs were added at the centre of the Serpentin."
Try this different link for more reallly good current photographs and information on the Mctavish site. (Turns out it is also haunted.)
hxxp://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/ocpm/pdf/P20e/5a.pdf
The marker is near the stone wall that separates the park from the parking lot of Royal Victoria Hospital. I'm pretty sure the parking lot is number
P7
. I have no idea if this lot was there when the book was written or if it was even numbered in the same way then. Just thought I would post it in case it is a match to the P7 in the picture.
I really love maltedfalcon's idea of following a straight line from the iconic image. Maybe Mont Royal Park is correct, just not the Mctavish monument?
slappybuns
okay, so now, even tho' i feel the tower part was gone, when you wrote P7 for the parking lot, hmmm that is what i always see in the block with the X..............
maltedfalcon
Actually until you get on the ground there, there is no way of telling.
its very possible it means another
pole
nearby that would be obvious if you were there. lamp
pole
, flag
pole
, utility
pole
.....
or it could be that the current marker says something like "On this spot was a giant
pole
marking the resting place of simon mctavish..."
Personally I'm liking this possibility more and more...
Still important to remember its just an idea not a solution, you've only got a solution when you've got a casque!
maltedfalcon
Actually until you get on the ground there, there is no way of telling.
its very possible it means another pole nearby that would be obvious if you were there. lamp pole, flag pole, utility pole.....
or it could be that the current marker says something like "On this spot was a giant pole marking the resting place of simon mctavish..."
Personally I'm liking this possibility more and more...
Still important to remember its just an idea not a solution, you've only got a solution when you've got a casque!
cw0909
someone mentioned that the music note looking thing, was stl hockey i googled hockey
for montreal and found this on the 4-5th search pg. i think team was around till mid 70s,
maybe there logo was still somewhere where bp could see it. click on years in link to see the logos
maybe this is the aces is high
Quebec Aces
hxxp://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/logos/teams/q.html
shecrab
The Aces were based in Quebec city, not Montreal and were disbanded by 1971. It's extremely unlikely that there would have been a logo anywhere visible near Mont-Royal in 1981, ten years after the team was gone.
cw0909
must have missed read i thought i read something about montreal and aces here, cant find pg now
hxxp://www.azhockey.com/
how about a bar in boston lol
Ace's High
551 Dorchester Ave, Boston, MA - (617) 269-7637
scottrocks7
I still have dbouts about the verse but I think I the clues in the image less the legeater tell us STL Forest Park and the Muny theater area. The STL clues are the Arch and the Black Colar. The Forest Park Clue is the checker pattern. The Muny clue is the half smile half frown in the mouth. I wish I could figure out one part of the middle section of Verse 6 to know for sure I had the match. Their may be two links the arms extended that I have previously talked about the other could be the cool clear song of water the fountain you think you see in the image. I am not sure it is a fountain. I also wonder if that thing some of us think is a STL Blues logo is actually a representation of the road around Pagoda Circle.
Soon I will update the Image to Verse Match again to try eliminate some verses and look for possible alternate verses.
cw0909
was looking around montreal, to try to link p-9
found this but till other images, in pic are found
besides the legeater, i think only then the verse to
this pic will make sense. looks close but it is
Quebéc, and unless there is an legeater there,
its still in for montreal
p-9 ?
click pic for larger view
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/106450
Trohn
I have recently upgraded my computer and monitor and wow!
I cropped and zoomed the upper right hand
background and previously unseen detail has emerged.
(I was shocked in fact)
I am having trouble posting it (too large) so if someone wants to
assist me, I would be grateful. Send me a PM with your e-mail and I will
forward you the document and let you judge.
If you want to do it yourselves, the image is directly diagonal (45 degress)
up from the hair sprouting out from the ear.
I posted it to the wiki - here:
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/9_LL
maltedfalcon
I give up what am I looking at?
Trohn
maltedfalcon wrote::
I give up what am I looking at?
What did you see? Look at the image in the center of the document - comprised
of a black lined image (with the negative space of the image being the brown -
as the rest of the background)
fox
how about just telling us what is there.
Trohn
fox wrote::
how about just telling us what is there.
Because I really want someone else to view and say it - so I am not told I am full of crap.
I will post another image of it on the wiki and provide the description.
fox
understood trohn. i would check it out but i am using my cell right now to scan the boards
maltedfalcon
I just dont see it.
I see lots of vague shapes but nothing I can point to and say aha.
oh hang on, maybe... let me pull out my paintshop pro...
maltedfalcon
trohn just sent an email with a jpg to the address in your profile
is that what you meant?
Trohn
Malted Falcon-
Send it to:
[email protected]
The e-mail posted on this profile is old.
Thanks.
Tron
Trohn
maltedfalcon wrote::
sent
see reply. Not looking at what I was.
maltedfalcon
then nope, dont see it...
maltedfalcon
I looked at the image on the wiki and I see the artifacts you are pointing at.
and I do see what you are talking about, but above that I can see a face and below that I can see jabba the hut, I think this is a case of seeing things in the shapes of the clouds rather then an actual image. Also the trouble with having to blow up the image and process it to see things is something that BP could not have expected the readers to do in 1981 as nobody would have access to that kind of stuff.
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
Also the trouble with having to blow up the image and process it to see things is something that BP could not have expected the readers to do in 1981 as nobody would have access to that kind of stuff.
It is quite interesting indeed that there does appear to be a person on a horse, or bicycle or something. I do see a pretty clear image of that...but I am with Falcon when he said:
I still don't think this is Churchill Downs however...sorry
catherwood
maltedfalcon wrote::
Also the trouble with having to blow up the image and process it to see things is something that BP could not have expected the readers to do in 1981 as nobody would have access to that kind of stuff.
Additionally, how could the artist put any such details in his paintings? (Do we know the original size of the paintings? How much were they reduced to fit on a book page?) A single brush stroke is going to create many fine lines from each hair in the paintbrush -- i do not believe any artist could control for such factors. Oh, plus the fact that you are not zooming in on the original painting, but a scanned and printed version -- you're magnifying the pixels of the printing process, not the details in the brush strokes. It's like when you see artifacts in a .jpg image which was made from a screen capture.
Trohn
catherwood wrote::
Additionally, how could the artist put any such details in his paintings? (Do we know the original size of the paintings? How much were they reduced to fit on a book page?) A single brush stroke is going to create many fine lines from each hair in the paintbrush -- i do not believe any artist could control for such factors. Oh, plus the fact that you are not zooming in on the original painting, but a scanned and printed version -- you're magnifying the pixels of the printing process, not the details in the brush strokes. It's like when you see artifacts in a .jpg image which was made from a screen capture.
I checked the book image after I got home and I see the same line drawing - need a magnifying glass to see it clearly.
Egbert
catherwood wrote::
Additionally, how could the artist put any such details in his paintings? (Do we know the original size of the paintings? How much were they reduced to fit on a book page?)
As a matter of fact, yes.
JJP offered to sell me the centaur pic, and he said that it was about 2 feet tall by 1 foot wide (approximately). Also, he said they are not paintings - they are drawings.
2fast4u2c
I have always been sceptical anytime someone claims to see something in the backgrounds and whatnot, but i must say once i saw the picture from the link on the wiki site, it sort of just jumped out at me. I do indeed see a person on a horse, in an agressive stance such as a jockey. I saw it even clearer when I kinda blurred my focus like you do when looking at those magic eye pictures (it wasn't 3D though!)
I don't doubt for a second that an artist as skilled as JJP could do such with nothing but a brush. there are many types of brushes, not just the jumbo ones we used in grade school art class.
shecrab
We had lineoleum on the floor of my bedroom when I was a child that was a floral pattern, small, with brown and green flecks and an occasional pink flower center. Over the years, I was convinced there were small pink bugs crawling on the floor of my room--as in a jungle. If I squinted my eyes in a certain way, I could imagine that the floor turned inside out--and became the forest canopy above my head, and the bugs crawling were then pink birds moving from tree to tree. It's not that the patterns weren't THERE--it's what I made of them that was the significant thing. The longer I stared, the more varied it became.
I do not believe these are deliberate artifacts. I am a painter, an artist--and I know that in any random swirl of paint, or any collection of artist's pastel on pebble-textured paper, some pigment will collect in a way that suggests something ELSE--other than a brushstroke or pencil-stroke, or shadow. I have done this myself--with watercolors, with pencils, with pastels, with oil or acrylic paints. It happens. It's never deliberate. It's sometimes interesting and sometimes even disturbing. I accidentally "painted" a face in a window once. That was a bit freaky.
But the bottom line is that it's not deliberate.
The original art work, whether painted or drawn, was not meant to be viewed with a magnifying glass to glean clues. There is enough mystery in the fully-visible objects in the painting. Neither Cleveland nor Chicago casque required this sort of intense detection.
Whoever said it was correct--they just didn't have the sort of technology available and ready to use in 1981 that would have made it possible to see such things. It would have HAD to be just human eyes looking at book paper from a normal distance. The paintings/drawings were larger because that's how a book illustration is made--larger--and would then have been reduced to book size. Anything that showed up in the book is probably the result of the printing process.
When I was working on Dar, it drove me crazy when someone would say "I have these little circles in my book--maybe they're only in MY book?" when the little circles in question were the result of ink blobs from the color processing. As if a publisher would go to the trouble, expense and literally maddening ridiculousness of putting clues in only SOME of the books sold! It didn't matter, though--once someone found one, suddenly everyone found DOZENS. Common sense flew right out the window.
And if you want to really hear something weird, I can see parts of what may look like the top part of a jockey on a horse--the horse's head is missing, and floating above him in the sky is a mermaid with rather large, er....assets.
So should we look near the ocean?
forest_blight
What she said.
fox
shecrab wrote::
And if you want to really hear something weird, I can see parts of what may look like the top part of a jockey on a horse--the horse's head is missing, and floating above him in the sky is a mermaid with rather large, er....assets.
I must have missed the er...assets, can you blow them up and post them for us?
Trohn
People see manatees in the water in Image 12.
People see sailing ships in daisies in Image 6.
People see numbers in hair in most of the images that look like swiggles to me.
In image 9, the background is one third of the image, I do not think it is
inconceivable that an in your face clue is there - other wise, what is the point
in making the background a gradually changing shade of browns. (artistic license?)
I see the black line drawing, I have posted my findings, I did not expect universal
lauding - it would cause too many theories to come into question.
For those who haven't looked, look at your book with the naked eye.
The 'blacked stenciled jockey on horse' is at 'two-o'clock' in the image in the lighter
tan section of the background. Just below and between the two white posts -
that may also be there RANDOMLY!! (geez)
maltedfalcon
my daughter sees those two white posts as the ears of a horse with a bridle look slightly to the right.
I see it too, but I think its just a printing artifact.
Trohn
maltedfalcon wrote::
my daughter sees those two white posts as the ears of a horse with a bridle look slightly to the right.
I see it too, but I think its just a printing artifact.
If you see it differently than I, so be it, no problem.
If you dismiss it as the bathroom floor spinning uncontrollably with
furry bugs - you've got more issues than a twenty-five year old treasure hunt can solve.
shecrab
fox wrote::
I must have missed the er...assets, can you blow them up and post them for us?
I did try that actually---however (and this will probably prove my point even more!) when you click on the Wiki picture and "copy" it and then paste it down somewhere else, it
changes drastically
. You can't see anything recognizable in it at all.
However--I did manage to use MY jpg of the image, and outlined where the mermaid's, um, assets are--and I will post that.
The mermaid is more visible than the horse/jockey. I also found an interesting face. I'm posting the whole thing so you can see.
There is THIS also:
"Issues", eh?
fox
Very funny...thanks for the assets
shecrab
In this economy, they are likely to be the only assets any of us get--and they're imaginary!!
scottrocks7
I could not find thoes links on the wiki but when I saw the image on this thread the man on the horse jumped out at me. Toward the right side of the hat right? if this is a man on the horse and it is an intentional image not a brush stroke then this could be a strong clue that Forest Park is the location of the STL casque. A popular statue in the park is Louis XIV on a horse.
The first thing we need to do though is confirm this is STl and not Montreal. The way to do that is to see if any park or other area a casque may be burried i.e. a water front in Montreal had something in or near them that matched the checker patteren in the image. Many of us have found checker paterens around but none that matched the one in the image. A time period from 1978 to 1982 should be checked.
If this comes up empty as it is likely to do and the Checker Dome matched the pattern then we can assume this goes to STL.
If this is the case then the Arch and the Old Courthouse are the city clues the checker pateren and the horseman
are the park clues. The legeater
could also be a park confirmer.
The clues to get you to the area of the casque (either the Muny Pagoda Circle area or World's Fair Pavillion) are first the jewel in the middle of the checker pattern this is likely telling us to use the entrance near the Checker Dome. If this entrance is close to either of the likely casque locations then this idea is much more likely. The half smile half frown is likely a clue to the Muny and a fountain near the Muny are clues to get you to the area of the casque.
If no matching patern is found in Montreal and the Checker Dome entrance is close to either the Muny or World's Fair Pavillion area then I think we have the area.
The next question is what verse matches the image. The things I think tie this image to Verse 6 are the checker pattern on the chest. This is likely the arms extended bar that binds and the fountain in the image is likely the cool clear song of water. This looks promising but we need to do some more research on the verse.
maltedfalcon
Then there is that darn legeater.
Find one in St Louis and Im a believer...
Trohn
Scotty-
I do believe (am I the only one?) that it is an intentional image/clue.
Yes, to the right of the hat.
For whatever location the image is associated with, I think this is an
'obvious' clue (for the general location) - that is why it is concealed as it is.
If one looks at the image from the book, there should be no question that
the clue exists.
maltedfalcon
could you guys specifically outline the area you are speaking of in detail.
so that we could compare it to the other "images" that are possibly there.
Can you match this horse rider to a specific statue in St Louis? "A popular statue in the park is Louis XIV on a horse." Does it match? There are lots of equestrian statues in montreal also, so a specific match would be important.. If you outline the area you are seeing perhaps we can match it to a montreal statue.
as far as the checkers go, there are checkers that match all over montreal and in the location around the legeater, for instance, the floor of Christ church is checkered, Checkers are a recurring theme in the decorations around montreal's china town. there is even a local checkers store who's marguis is checkered.
Checkers is a pretty common pattern and not unique to a particular city.
shecrab
Unknown:
Checkers is a pretty common pattern and not unique to a particular city.
However, the
checkerboard pattern
is particular to Purina, which is based in St. Louis. I'd say that gives it a BIG edge.
boogieman
Shecrab, I really want to take your word for it, but I see three faces in image2 and cannot for the life of me figure out how they got here if JJP didn't do it intentionally. This is image 2, the lions nose. The dude in the middle has guns pointed at him from the two other guys. I know i posted this a long while ago, but, does anyone else see it? Pirates? To me, it is as intentional as the images on the lions forehead....
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
However, the
checkerboard pattern
is particular to Purina, which is based in St. Louis. I'd say that gives it a BIG edge.
Unless the picture is for montreal, in which case its not. checkerboards are pretty common, it seems though legeaters arent.
fox
I think you are losing it Boogie...3 guys? Pirates? I think I may see what you are talking about but do you think things like this would be noticed on the page in the book which is a lot smaller? I really think we need to stick with the obvious here.
animal painter
I had seen this before...but now have a slight connection...
This is what looks like a moth, in the hair of the weird-man.
In Montreal, just 4 miles from the legeater, is the Insectarium,
Insectarium de Montréal
4581 Sherbrooke Est
Montréal, Québec
Just trying to nail down the city location of image 9...
boogieman
One would first have to have it, to then lose it Fox.
BTW, that image is in the book as well.
Pirates was the wrong word. Bandits fit better. This is
NO
different from the man and horse, here in image9.
forest_blight
Unknown:
Insectarium de Montréal
4581 Sherbrooke Est
Montréal, Québec
Darn. The hotel I am sitting in RIGHT NOW is at 1659 Sherbrooke, but it looks like my schedule is completely packed
for the entire conference
. Of all the rotten luck.
I did walk past our favorite lamps today, though. Quite a thrill. Maybe I will get to walk past them tomorrow with a camera.
fox
Egads boogie...the middle guy in your outline looks an awful lot like one Mr. Homer Jay Simpson.
Sorry, just had to do it. I still think these 'images?' found in brush/pen strokes in the Ps are a huuuuge stretch. Let's see if we can find an "obvious" one in either P4 or P5 and then maybe I will become a believer.
slappybuns
have fun forest!
maltedfalcon
Forest,
if you are on the ground by the leg eater.
do me a favor
walk left and right on the street and see if you can come up with an angle where the horizontal lines on the building behind the legeater and the large planter box with the angled sides matches the object in the picture to the right of the legeater.
I always thought it was a fountain of some kind, but with the steps/platforms/horziontal lines on the club
and then the planter box whose sides match the angle of the top of the strange object...
My guess is move up the street toward Mount Royal and see if the foreshortening effect causes you to percieve the view as matching the object.
If so this would indicate you are going in the correct direction if you move toward mount royal from the legeater
pictures that contain images of the planter box I am talking about...
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/11924414@N00/
forest_blight
I'm sorry malt, but I just came back from the one and only Secret-related jaunt I will be able to make during this trip. I wish I had more time, and that I had read your message sooner.
I just uploaded all my pics to webshots:
hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/album/567344018kobdGv
bclews suggested that I take panoramic photos while standing in front of the Mount Stephen Club. I did that, but I've never done it before, so it may be difficult to stitch them together. Anyway, if someone is so inclined, the pictures are there for stitching (start with 2097 and end with 2108).
I also took some pictures of the dirt areas around the Club. I would regard the club grounds a highly UNlikely site for our casque. Not really a good spot, has flower beds, private property, etc. Plus, it isn't Dutch, and the casque site needs to have some sort of Dutch connection to go with P9.
Loads of great architecture and culture in Montreal; I highly recommend a trip.
ravel07
I'm glad that somebody else saw that the area near the legeater is really not a good place to hide a treasure!
forest_blight
Oh, and this opinion in no way detracts from your discovery, ravel07 - at least we know what we're looking for!
fox
ravel07 wrote::
I'm glad that somebody else saw that the area near the legeater is really not a good place to hide a treasure!
It never really has been a good place...but, you found our legeater!
cw0909
ravel07 could you in your spare time, see if you could find the box with the X, and take some pics for us
xlurker posted one at this link, thanks
hxxp://www.fidnet.com/~debbil/TheSecret.html
great pics fb
xlurker
Wonderful pics fb!!!!! Thanks so much for taking the time.
cw:
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN
If you scroll down to Loyola Campus it is building FC. Find this on google earth and it is in 3D. You can see the railing around the porch if you zoom in.
cw0909
thanks x, i went looking for checkerboard and found this, this link has a link to
overlay maps first one in link
hxxp://spacingmontreal.ca/page/15/
same link just a few pages back a checkerboard building of sorts
what i like about this site, is the pics from several people and categories,
with comparisions old and new, one drawback for me my french is like nil
hxxp://spacingmontreal.ca/page/4/
anyway enjoy, plenty to look at
forest_blight
Thanks for those links, cw0909. The first place at the second link, Le Pois Penche, is almost immediately next door to the Mount Stephen Club. I remember walking on the sidewalk between those two rows of oddly placed tables this morning and thinking, "geez, that's annoying."
cw0909
looking through the link i posted
hxxp://spacingmontreal.ca/page/15/
at this a few pgs forward, i found a building that looks like the collar,
not sure how close it is to legeater, was built i think in 1970s
hxxp://spacingmontreal.ca/2008/06/09/mo ... /#comments
fb hopefully we can find something dutch in the link
shecrab
The picture caption says it was
demolished
at the beginning of 1970.
There is no clear indication of which building they are referring to.
2fast4u2c
well the bottom picture shows cars that are way too modern to have been around in the 60s or 70s so i am guessing that building is still around, whether it was there in 81 and where exactly is it would be the question. It is on Bleury street which is about 9 to 12 streets north of our legeater
scottrocks7
I think the thing in the flower that we thought was the STL Blues logo is actually the Numberr 90. If this is the case then we have the cordinance of STL 90 23 39 some say 38 is in the Lat/Long. The legeater is nice but the rest of the image looks like STL and Forest Park. Another indicater that Verse 6 may be the match is that the jewel in the hat is in the mibble of the chest checker patern. When turned upside down it looks like it is below the bar that binds. Thus it looks like arms extended bar that binds is illistrated in the image. I am open to other ideas but it looks like Image 9 and Verse 6 go together and they lead to an area in the Muny/Pagoda Circle area of Forest Park less likely the World's Fair Pavillion area. I will soon write about what needs to be done next to confirm we have the right area. I think we are very close but not yet enough to get me to make the 3 hour drive to the park.
I will also update the image to verse match thread to show the likely combinations if this is correct.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
The picture caption says it was
demolished
at the beginning of 1970.
There is no clear indication of which building they are referring to.
The building at the top (black and white) was demolished and the lower building was built on the same site and is there currently.
maltedfalcon
interesting that the buildiing in the picture that looks like the collar
is exactly at the same address, but 7 blocks over, of the hotel that mark twain spoke at/about when he visited montreal.
fox
scottrocks7 wrote::
I will soon write about what needs to be done next to confirm we have the right area. I think we are very close but not yet enough to get me to make the 3 hour drive to the park.
I just don't understand your infatuation with the Muny... & ... if I were a mere 3 hours from a possible casque site, I would be all over it: exploring the area looking for 'things' that fit, taking pictures, digging at possible sites, etc...
cw0909
Re: image 9
« Reply #965 on: Yesterday at 10:50:48 pm »
The building at the top (black and white) was demolished and the lower building was built on the same site and is there currently.
malt your french is better than mine, but thats what i thought it read too.
have been trying to find more info, maybe over weekend, ill have a little more
time to look see
cw0909
been thinking on the dutch connection, maybe we are looking for a name, the Netherlands Embassy
is at
1002 Sherbrooke West
Suite 2020
Montreal, QC H3A 3L6
CANADA
not far from legeater
name link
hxxp://surnames.behindthename.com/php/s ... &usage=yes
shecrab
Unknown:
we thought was the STL Blues logo
Who's "we", kemo sabe?
I said over and over again it WASN'T the logo.
animal painter
cw0909,
I love the photo you found of that building....good work!
AP
slappybuns
i really like that building too cw, and the netherlands embassy idea.
eljayo
That building is
SNC-Lavalin
455 René-Lévesque
Blvd. West
Have some green area beside...
animal painter
Eljayo,
Great piece of detective work...
I am attempting to find out when it was built.
AP
xlurker
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/search.php ... cation=Ren
é-Lévesque&kind=1&kind=1
says 1987 here
animal painter
Maybe we can find out who the architect was and see if he
has any other buildings in the area. He may use that
"step" detail as a recognizable trademark.
cw0909
X thank you for link, i went to buildings,
at the link you posted and found two buildings
the same, they are 3. and 4, didnt see a 1,2 or 5
im thinking there are at least 4, they were built in 1964
since the other one i posted wasnt built till 87, and there
are at least two maybe bp thought you would know the pattern
in 80,81
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/timeline.php
large view
at this link you can see both buildings, and maybe a third
hxxp://www.imtl.org/montreal/building/P ... azie-4.php
no time to look on a map to see how close to the legeater they are
scottrocks7
What I am saying Fox is that if Verse 6 goes with this Image then the Muny area looks like it matches the verse. This assumes that this image goes to STL. While I am on the subject three potential clues we may be missing are the hands noes and shirt.
forest_blight
bclews was kind enough to make these wonderful panoramas out of the photos I snapped in Montreal a few days ago. It's like you're standing right there. Be sure to click on the images so you are viewing them at 100%.
hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/montreal2.jpg
hxxp://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/montrealvista.jpg
slappybuns
thanks forest and bclews!
for some reason, i kept picturing that lamp as extra large, probably because of all the close-ups i've seen of it.
bclews
I've temporarily added FB's Montreal pano to the bottom of this page --
hxxp://users.crocker.com/~bclews
miyaka
Hey folks. Not to take this discussion back to STL but in the image there is a ornament with a dog and a leg. This has been pointed to as evidence on Montreal. However, I am thinking maybe it was trying to communicate "dogleg" as it references a golf course hole. Above this is a flag in the image and has been suggested hole 7??? If you match this image to verse six there is a reference to the "on the eighth" again maybe referring to hole 7 or 8? I don't know the layout of the courses in Forest Park very well and hope to walk them next month when I am in STL. I have heard there are actually 3 different courses.
Just keeping STL hope alive!
forest_blight
forest_blight wrote::
Okay, I just wrote a nice letter (on real paper!) to J. W. Fiske. I was able to get his P.O. box from someone who knew it. Again, the hope is that he will be able to simply look up who else purchased lamp bases like the ones in Montreal.
From J. W. Fiske, 9/30/08:
"Thank you for your inquiry. I am sorry, but I can be of little help to you. I must apologize for taking so long to answer but I have been away all summer and a large pile of mail when I returned. You are correct in assuming that many parts were used in various and different assemblies. I do not have any old sales records which might shed some light in answering your questions. I will hold the photos - let me know if you would like them returned. Sincerely, Joseph W. Fiske."
animal painter
Forest,
At least he took the time to reply...
That was polite...disappointing, but polite.
Thanks for trying.
AP
fox
Ahhh, he was sworn to secrecy by BP and JPP.... We must be getting close...
maltedfalcon
Until there is a casque found using this image, it is totally possible that this image represents St. Louis,
But I really think it represents Montreal... and this is why...
The numbers fit
The Legeater Fits
The Neck Fits (notice the exact fit too!)
The Blob even fits
There is a hidden map of montreal...
The closest parking lot to the mctavish monument is... (verified by calling the hospital security desk)
and montreal has checkers too...
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
The Legeater Fits
maltedfalcon wrote::
The Neck Fits (notice the exact fit too!)
maltedfalcon wrote::
There is a hidden map of montreal...
This is just toooo exact for me. Very nice display Falcon.
This is interesting as well. Some of the other things you listed seem to be stretches, ie... the 'blob' idea...but who knows? And just how long has parking lot P7 been around? But this...oh boy...this is what really intrigues me:
Has this ever been mentioned in the past?
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
This is just toooo exact for me. Very nice display Falcon.
This is interesting as well. Some of the other things you listed seem to be stretches, ie... the 'blob' idea...but who knows? And just how long has parking lot P7 been around? But this...oh boy...this is what really intrigues me:
There is a hidden map of montreal..
Has this ever been mentioned in the past?
Thnx, I believe I mentioned it, I just finally got around to posting an image of what I meant...
Also as far as the blob goes... I realize that image is not exact, it is why I was asking FB to eyeball it in person... but I bet there is a view of the front of the club, using the flowerbox,
matches the blob exactly.. you have to admit it is closer than any other blob suggestion has been...
shecrab
Fox, I respect your opinion here, but I don't think his river is any more "confirming" than mine:
The little blobby part in that collar where I have the arrow drawn is the same shape as the city of St. Louis. And the bends of the river match also--as well as MF's. Also, note arch at bottom. Upside, down, but most definitely an ARCH.
MF: yes you can get the "Blob" to fit your St. Stephen's steps--but WHY? Why would BP have picked out such an arbitrary outline, and also not included the REST of the blob? You account only for the step-like parts--not the top loopy parts. you don't address anything that includes them. And why note
that particular part
of the club, when it would
not
be a place the casque could be buried?
It's just
too
arbitrary--part of a staircase, part of a window box, part of an image blob--part of a building facade? That makes NO sense at all. If there was something self-contained about that outline, or if it was on a place where one could dig, I'd think it was more valid. This does not say confirmation to me. It's not like the statue of the boy in Image 7--his outline, his clothing, his pose--even his hands--as vague and small as the Image has them, they MATCH. There is no doubt when you look at them. Not like this blob and your Stephen's club steps.
ravel07
Parc Rembrandt (I'd never heard of it) is in Cote-St-Luc, which is pretty far from downtown Montreal. I would be extremely surprised if there was anything there. There doesn't seem to be anything distinctive there either, judging from the park's website:
hxxp://www.cotesaintluc.org/en/RembrandtPark
maltedfalcon
I totally understand what you are saying,
why those particular architectural elements,
it might be simply those are the elements that appeared in the photo that BP took of the legeater.
if he took one shot of the lamp from one spot and sent that in, those could be the elements that stood out in that picture and were framed by the shot. That is a simple logical explanation. If Montreal is the location, then there must be a blob in Montreal and at this time I think the blob,is probably the planter box et al, if it is not Montreal it's moot.
It makes sense, that the proximity of the blob to the legeater in the image indicates some kind of proximity in the real world, so if the fountain in St Louis is the blob, then the legeater in St Louis must be nearby.
From the lamp in montreal we know that the legeater is the base of a lamp, It is a real item not a metaphorical indicator or composite of other things.
Why not try a "have you seen this lamp" posters put up in the area around the blob fountain (does that fountain have a name or location, blob fountain seems kind of vague.) that kind of thing would catch peoples attention perhaps even news coverage...
Have fun with it, get some milk cartons and past a missing lamp label to it and leave them around in the area...
here.... I will email the original to whoever wants it, it's sized to print 8x11
shecrab
Unknown:
I totally understand what you are saying,
why those particular architectural elements,
it might be simply those are the elements that appeared in the photo that BP took of the legeater.
Errrrr.....I doubt that. Not to be argumentative here, but I don't think that would have been what JJP put in a painting to "mark" an area. I think BP took photos of
whole things
--and gave them to JJP to paint. So they could be definite markers--not indefinite ones.
I like your poster idea, though. Why not put it on a website, too?
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Fox, I respect your opinion here, but I don't think his river is any more "confirming" than mine:
shecrab, I think its just a little bit closer, but still not an exact match...
maltedfalcon
Then too , which of these is closer...?
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Why not put it on a website, too?
I would simply aim it at the people who frequent the area of the blob fountain.
People will see it and read it, and the people in that area are more likely to know about it if it exists or existed.
A website would aim at entirely the wrong people and why would people go to the website in the first place? but feel free...
shecrab
I have done this below....I think it may be helpful to visualize something other than a fountain for the blob. I'm not saying the blob isn't a fountain--but it might be a building as well--and this is pretty much what I'm seeing. I think this may be the marker for the casque wherever it is. MF, if you can find something like this near the Montreal legeater, I'll graciously accept everything you put forth and go with it.
Otherwise, I'm still looking, despite your stairstep building. Because----yes, that architectural detail is more accurate in your pic---but it's distinctive to a St. Louis
LANDMARK
in mine. And when it all comes down to it, that may (MAY) be more important.
Cormac
If you want to go literal, the bottom one is closer....
but I like the concept of the "Jewel Box"
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
I think BP took photos of
whole things
--and gave them to JJP to paint. So they could be definite markers--not indefinite ones.
by taking the legeater and the background behind it. in two separate pieces, you make the puzzle a bit tougher and still have an exact site confirmer.
Question - you seem to be having more trouble with the why then the what... If a picture taken 20 or so feet to the left matched up perfectly, even though they are arbitrary elements, the flower box, plinth stair runner etc., all matched up exactly, would you still believe this is not the blob?
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
I have done this below....I think it may be helpful to visualize something other than a fountain for the blob. I'm not saying the blob isn't a fountain--but it might be a building as well--and this is pretty much what I'm seeing.
I really need to go back and repost all my old pictures, I had them hosted on a website that I ended up selling so all those photos in the old threads are not showing. but this is one I posted back in 2004.
It shows the arches removed because the assumption was they represented water, and I wanted to see the underlying structure.
Now I think they represent flora draping out of the box, that is why they dont continue down the steps...
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
MF, if you can find something like this near the Montreal legeater, I'll graciously accept everything you put forth and go with it.
Oh no!, Please don't accept anything I say until we find a casque in St.Louis, Montreal, or somewhere else?
Disagreement, breeds creativity, Please, try very hard to shoot down everything I post, If it cant stand up to scrutiny of intelligent observers then it is not a very good idea. If I seem to be picking on you, it is because your arguments against definitely make me work harder at proving mine...
I think that this board is making very good progress lately, if you look you will find it happens during the middle of big "arguments." People try to support their position and make a breakthrough or connection and on we go...
Cormac
hxxp://www.forestparkforever.org/HTML/f ... e_2005.pdf
following the river idea... this map has similar bends...
Also, his head is the basic shape of the area called the Grand Basin
digger7
I think that the light brown blob just to the right of man's ear in this image looks like the coastline of Newfoundland. Does this look like that to anyone else?
I'm not saying it is Newfoundland, just a confirmer of Canada.
maltedfalcon
like this?
I wouldnt now newfoundland if I tripped over it , but it matches as good as the others...
shecrab
LOL....MF, I think he meant the light brown blob to the right of the entire figure. And yes, it vaguely resembles it in spots.
But I'm one of those that doesn't believe that the light brown areas in the painting's background are meaningful. I can be "turned" though.....that one piece of coastline there---maybe maybe maybe......
I have been trying to match up the hat wrinkles with the edge of the state of Missouri. I can't get a decent size map to use to match them, but they match fairly well. One or the other of them--either my snippet of the hat, or the map I've been using, needs to be rotated just slightly--and I can't do that on this computer here at work. I will be able to do it when I get home later, using another imaging program. So we'll see. Until then, I'm workin' on it!!
I agree MF--good exchanges aren't good exchanges unless they include disagreements! I'm sooooooooo glad you don't get defensive and upset! I certainly don't mean to upset anyone.
BTW: your images of the blob without the loopy things---look MORE like the Jewel Box....
digger7
shecrab wrote::
LOL....MF, I think he meant the light brown blob to the right of the entire figure. And yes, it vaguely resembles it in spots.
yes, that is what I meant.
maltedfalcon
Nope, I was wrong if you move more to the left in front of the blob, it becomes even less lined up.
I agree the planter box is not our blob.
cw0909
Re: image 9
« Reply #1020 on: Today at 02:45:29 pm »
I have been trying to match up the hat wrinkles with the edge of the state of Missouri. I can't
get a decent size map to use to match them, but they match fairly well. One or the other of
them--either my snippet of the hat, or the map I've been using, needs to be rotated just
slightly--and I can't do that on this computer here at work. I will be able to do it when I get
home later, using another imaging program. So we'll see. Until then, I'm workin' on it!!
shecrab try this, it may still be too small
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/
i still have people looking for a legeater in STL
xlurker
My boyfriend is playing golf in Forest Park today at the AAA course. I sent a camera with him for hole 7.
shecrab
Actually MF, that was upside down from the way I've been trying to match it--hence the size problem. That's a clever idea, though...hadn't thought of that one!
Thanks, cw0909--but it didn't work for me either. I wasn't able to resize my map last night---will try again tonight.
boogieman
I had posted this a while back but it got lost. Malted, can you overlay these. Thanks. boogie
maltedfalcon
I cant see how to line them up
are you saying line the river up with the bumps on the right of the hat?
cause as much as I scale & spin, I cant get them close.
scottrocks7
AMEN that's what I have been saying all along and another thing I did not think about the map being upside down but it looks like almost all of the clues are upsidedown in this image.
cw0909
i have not given up on p-9 as montreal, because of the
legeater, ive inquired to a few of the older, iron work co.
here and in england, so far the reponse has been, they have
never seen anything like it. i emailed the club, no reponse
from them yet, it has been almost a month, im thinking they
are not going to respond
i think the posters name is revole, and he/she lives near or in
montreal. revloe if you could sometime, go to the club on
sunday, as it is open to the public on sundays, maybe you
could find out a little more on the lamp, it seems thier would
have to be some plans drawings ect., that would contain info on
the lamp.
revole if you could look at this park too, thanks
well ive searched almost every park in the area, and i found a
cherkerboard on these links, a very large checkerboard, one link
said it is an old pool, but not why it has that pattern.
the park can be found on maps by two names
parc notre dame de grace and girouard Park
the only dutch connection i found, is a danish club, a few blocks
from the park
club address /5455 de Maisonneuve West, montreal
hxxp://www.danishclubmontreal.com/mem.shtml
map/club and park
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&i ... _medium=ha
park maps
hxxp://wikimapia.org/#lat=45.4728055&lo ... =0&m=a&v=2
hxxp://wikimapia.org/54576/Girouard-Park-NDG
roll mouse over squares to see the park, then zoom in
shecrab
Unknown:
the only dutch connection i found, is a danish club,
??
Last I checked Denmark and Holland were two different countries.....
slappybuns
wanted to post this picture and see if anyone besides me thought it resembled the legeater...been reading the book a little and read about seward, so i checked out seward park in new york and found this sculpture:
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
i mean the picture of "togo" on that flickr site.........the dog, look at the fence behind him too, could that be the blob?
here's another angle:
hxxp://www.everystockphoto.com/photo.php?imageId=665437
maltedfalcon
Well yes it sure does,
excepting the mouth is closed it is missing the deerleg and it was created and placed in 2001...
but that nose is spot on!...
cw0909
Re: image 9
« Reply #1031 on: Today at 09:38:18 am
Last I checked Denmark and Holland were two different countries
yes i know but looking into it i read, that Denmark and Holland,
and finland are all part of the netherlands, and a lot of people
just call them all dutch. not sure if bp would have done this,
but i know people that have, myself included
forest_blight
I think you've been reading the wrong websites, cw0909
cw0909
me to
something else i was wondering about, all the burial sites seem to be on the outer edges
of usa, except montreal of course. so why go to mid of country for a spot to bury, and
that is providng that montreal is wrong just trying to work it out for stl, and no known
legeater there
fox
It was brought up some time ago that the casque cities are all port cities or cities of immigration.
cw0909
thanks fox
that could include stl if a legeater was to be found there, because the great M river
has many ports all along it , maybe the coastal ports are more likely then.
but i still wonder why bp chose to go the way he did, and where he started
fox
cw0909 wrote::
thanks fox
that could include stl if a legeater was to be found there, because the great M river
has many ports all along it , maybe the coastal ports are more likely then.
but i still wonder why bp chose to go the way he did, and where he started
His path might come in handy but I doubt we will ever know. And yes, STL still fits into the port city equation.
shecrab
I have a question: was the legeater--the specific part that IS the legeater--the part that J W Fiske made? Is it definitely one of their designs?
ravel07
cw0909: I'm all for hearing new ideas and I'd be happy to look at possible locations in Montreal. However, I think we need to focus the search a little bit more. The legeater was found in the heart of downtown Montreal, and that makes sense if there is a treasure in Mtl: Preiss wouldn't have buried a treasure in a remote part of the city. So I think we should focus on downtown Montreal instead of finding things all over the city. For instance, parc Notre-Dame de Grâce is not at all close to the legeater (not within walking distance, anyway), and I highly doubt that Preiss would've gone in that part of the city. So unless we find additional clues, I'm not going to make a trip out there.
As for the club, didn't someone already ask them about the legeater? I'm pretty sure it's on this thread, and I remember the club saying that they didn't have any information about it. If I'm wrong and nobody actually asked them, then I'll be happy to go there on a Sunday and get some info.
forest_blight
shecrab wrote::
I have a question: was the legeater--the specific part that IS the legeater--the part that J W Fiske made? Is it definitely one of their designs?
I remember more than one person here approaching Mount Stephen Club management with questions about the lamps, to no avail - they have neither the records nor the institutional memory to help us. All available information points to the lamps (including the bases) being part of the original 19th century construction of the mansion.
I identified the lamp post (the "lamp standard" or shaft of the lamp) as identical to a model for sale in an old J. W. Fiske catalog. I learned that ironwork lamps like this were mass-produced in a modular fashion, much as they are today - you could switch out parts for other parts. In the catalog the base and top portion are much less ornate than "our" lamps, but the middle portion is definitely a 100% match to a J. W. Fiske pattern. I considered it reasonable to pursue the Fiske angle given the positive match for the shaft, but I followed the trail to its end and wasn't successful. So there is no evidence for the legeater being a Fiske design, but no evidence against it, either.
My working hypothesis now is that the architect liked the general design of the lamp, but considered the base and top portion too mundane for the stylish mansion he was designing, and so he commissioned or obtained more ornate parts. No clue where he got them, though.
shecrab
Hmmm....that brings up a new opening then---
it seems that the limb-in-mouth symbol is an iconic symbol used in Ancient Etruscan art--it is a particular feature of this culture, in fact. I'm wondering if by looking further into this connection, if we might not be able to pinpoint something that could help us locate this one.
Fiske, from what I've been able to research, did not dabble in Etruscan art forms--but in Italianate and Greek designs, especially as promulgated by two particular artists: Antonio Canova and Bertel Thorvaldsen, neither of whom used Etruscan symbology in their art or motifs.
Maybe the base isn't Fiske at all--and that may lead us to another iron-works where these symbols
were
used--and maybe a connection we can make to a city.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Hmmm....that brings up a new opening then---
it seems that the limb-in-mouth symbol is an iconic symbol used in Ancient Etruscan art--it is a particular feature of this culture, in fact. I'm wondering if by looking further into this connection, if we might not be able to pinpoint something that could help us locate this one.
Fiske, from what I've been able to research, did not dabble in Etruscan art forms--but in Italianate and Greek designs, especially as promulgated by two particular artists: Antonio Canova and Bertel Thorvaldsen, neither of whom used Etruscan symbology in their art or motifs.
Maybe the base isn't Fiske at all--and that may lead us to another iron-works where these symbols
were
used--and maybe a connection we can make to a city.
Are you saying,"Try to find a iron-works (it is made of iron and not brass right?) that specialized in the correct style and then see if they know anything about it?"
Thats a possiblity, how many could there be....
If the lamp was a mix and match kind of thing. are there catalogs, that architects used to choose from, in that case, maybe a trip to the library of congress is in order. ( or a library at a college that specializes in architecture.)
Or perhaps the column was fiske but the base was local how about checking into the history of local montreal foundries...
Still, if there was a legeater in STL someone would remember it. somebody should put up the wanted posters... it would quickly elimininate or confirm the possibility and it is the simplist solution...
Then we could concentrate all our effort on one spot.
shecrab
Exactly MF!!!
I was thinking that there was more than one iron-mfg at the fair. But it's sort of hard to tell by the lists. Anyway, it would be worth checking out, and I'll start tonight.
hxxp://www.1904worldsfairsociety.org/bu ... html
(a few photos)
hxxp://previous.slpl.org/libsrc/exhbtors.htm
(list of exhibitors)
shecrab
If anyone else wants to try researching this: use the windows "find" feature at the top of the screen under the Edit menu. The group of exhibitors for wrought iron would be group 33. when it comes up hit "find next" until you have your list of places to check.
There were a lot of them when I tried it.
forest_blight
A few brief replies:
shecrab - been there, done (some of) that.
Yes, it is an Etruscan design (one was found in Pompeii, too). Back when I was researching this, I blitzed many, many dealers of antique ironwork, and one of them clued me in to the J. W. Fiske connection. Nothing else even came close.
As for finding similar designs, we are definitely seeking not just any legeater but an exact clone of the ones in Montreal. The match is exact. We may not be looking for a lamp, though. Those same bases could possibly be found on bathtubs, planters, funerary urns, architectural flourishes, etc.
Researching ironworkers at the Fair is a good idea. But remember fairs like that were quickly dismantled, and any iron(zinc)-work would have to have persisted until at least 1981 to be of any use to us, and no one has found that lamp base in Forest Park.
Here is a picture I posted awhile back...
cw0909
ravel07 sorry for getting name wrong
just how far is the park from the legeater?
here in cleveland from T tower it was 3.8 mile i think to the garden,
in chicago, i think the route was 3-4 miles, and the same for milwaukee
also. not saying all burial sites are that distance, but it seems so for now.
i have to go near the clev. site thurs. so ill check for sure, and if i have
time ill take some pics
Cormac
1917
It took bold and decisive civic action in April of 1917 to give
St. Louis
and the world
The Municipal Theatre
. The Convention Board of the St. Louis Advertising Club decided to proceed with plans to host the 13th Annual Convention of Advertising Clubs of the World in June of 1917. At a time of recession and with war raging in Europe, that itself was a risky decision. But these promoters of St. Louis wanted to showcase our city to the 5,000 business
people who would come from across the country and Europe
.
hehehehe
Cormac
Slightly amusing....
Ok... so I look up J W Fiske and what do I find....
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN
this little boy looks familiar.... my brain hurts.
shecrab
FB: I do understand that the match must be exact. I was trying only to track down some possible other manufacturer. Looking closely at the base of that lamp in Montreal, it looks very much like it was added later--and your match of the post itself is, of course, absolutely EXACT. It is my opinion that we aren't looking for a
Fiske
lamp base, but another, different, manufacturer where we might find OTHER legeaters that are exact matches. And as you said, they may or may not be in Montreal--or St. Louis.
I don't believe there is anything like it in Forest Park. The park was literally scrubbed clean of all of the Exposition stuff, and returned to it's former, park identity after the end of the Expo. That never even crossed my mind, actually. There just
have
to be other legeaters--that CANNOT be the only one. I refuse to believe it. And I also don't believe the casque is in Montreal--and that the legeater would be the only thing linking it to Montreal--I need more than just that legeater. I know that the "stairstep" configuration has been found, but that particular architectural detail is found everywhere; it's not conclusive enough for me in this case. If it were really unusual, I'd have to go with it. It's not. The collar bends, and the hat bends--I feel in my gut these are borders. They have not matched Missouri, but they haven't matched Quebec either. I am going with BP's own assertion that there is a casque in St. Louis--he never asserted as much about Montreal, though he did say there was a Canadian one. Somewhere there is a better match, and MORE of a match. I just have this really strong gut feeling about it.
But that could just be indigestion too.
Cormac
forest_blight wrote::
It's in Forest Park in St. Louis, right outside the Muny. Here's a more modern picture:
Put these lat & lon in google earth for the location of the fountain
38°38'27.73"N 90°16'47.41"W
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
I know that the "stairstep" configuration has been found, but that particular architectural detail is found everywhere; it's not conclusive enough for me in this case. If it were really unusual, I'd have to go with it. It's not. The collar bends, and the hat bends--I feel in my gut these are borders. They have not matched Missouri, but they haven't matched Quebec either.
I am going with BP's own assertion that there is a casque in St. Louis--he never asserted as much about Montreal, though he did say there was a Canadian one. Somewhere there is a better match, and MORE of a match. I just have this really strong gut feeling about it.
The thing about the stairstep is it is an exact match.exactly the width & height, it overlays perfectly. The Jewel box merely is similar... dont forget the p7 which is the parking lot next to the building with the stairstep.
you are right about the maps * the lat lon they are there but can be read several ways...
Earlier though I asked a question to the person who reported the St Louis comment by BP, after reporting the comment, he later said he wondered if he mis-understood what BP meant. which leads me to believe BP did not unequivocally state there is a st louis casque, again he was being vague.
I asked exactly what BP said but never got an answer, does anybody know exactly what he said?
forest_blight
forest_blight wrote::
I thought it would be neat to gather, in one place, all the correspondence we can definitely attribute to Byron Preiss.
Some time ago, fox dredged up this correspondence from BP to johann, who had sent him a location in St. Louis. Here it is, warts and all:
In response, johann replied:
I posted the following in June of this year, in the General Questions thread:
Afterthought
: By saying "I think you deserve to know..." I think it is clear that BP meant the actual St. Louis -- the city, not a park named after St Louis in Montreal (for example). If he'd meant to be tricksy and said "I think you deserve to know..." that would have been pretty cruel. Now, does his message imply that johann had the right V, P, or V+P? Anyone's guess.
fox
forest_blight wrote::
I thought it would be neat to gather, in one place, all the correspondence we can definitely attribute to Byron Preiss.
Some time ago, fox dredged up this correspondence from BP to johann, who had sent him a location in St. Louis. Here it is, warts and all:
st. Louid ? Suppose this easily could've been a typo since "s" and "d" are neighbors but why not capitalize the "s" in st.? Let's all hope there are no major typos in our V's
shecrab
Unknown:
The thing about the stairstep is it is an exact match.exactly the width & height, it overlays perfectly. The Jewel box merely is similar... dont forget the p7 which is the parking lot next to the building with the stairstep.
Unknown:
Earlier though I asked a question to the person who reported the St Louis comment by BP, after reporting the comment, he later said he wondered if he mis-understood what BP meant. which leads me to believe BP did not unequivocally state there is a st louis casque, again he was being vague.
I asked exactly what BP said but never got an answer, does anybody know exactly what he said?
But we might be able to get an overlay to match perfectly with
any
building that had the same sort of configuration. I don't know that the EXACT match is necessary for this particular feature of the P.(or any other P.) --I think any "stairstep" type of architecture (if it IS architecture at all) would be considered a good match. The reason I say this is because of the vagueness of most of the matches in the images. A good example is the outline of the state of Ohio in the Cleveland pic---it's just vaguely the outline of Ohio--not exact at all. Ohio has a distinctive "shield" shape--and if you just get that much of it, you will understand it's meant to be Ohio. That's the vagueness I mean. It doens't have to match the exact stairsteppy thing on the buildings--
just the fact that one of the buildings is a stairstep configuration
is probably the thing we are supposed to be looking at. Of course, arguments can be made for exactness as well--the columns in the Image 4 WERE exact. So was the wall, though its proportions were skewed by its placement in the Image. In Chicago, the Water tower was exact, if you remove the windmill blades. The statue wasn't. It was just slightly different enough so you would recognize it if you saw it and compared the two, but not to "recognize" it as an "AHA!--I know that statue!" moment. The exact location of the casque, however, WAS exactly depicted.
Which leads me to this: if in both solutions we have EXACT depictions of the location of the casque, then what would that be in Image 9? It would almost HAVE to be the legeater---but we
cannot
dig at the legeater in Montreal. So that would mean (a) there has to be
another
legeater, and (b)
it's not in Montreal!
What other images in that picture would be as precise a location? Nothing I can see. The legeater and the blob--whatever that blob is---HAVE to be exactly where the casque resides, just as the wall and the "fixture" in the other solves are exactly depicted. I can't see BP doing this inconsistently--it wouldn't be fair to the reader,
or
support his statement that these were all supposed to be found within a few months.
From the mail posted, I don't think there's any doubt that there is one in St. Louis (Louid? LOL..) From the general associations with the imagery and the book's structure, I don't think it can be any other than Image 9.
I really think we ought to quit looking in Montreal and concentrate on finding some blob and legeater in St. Louis. If Johann's solution was incorrect---as BP said--where exactly WAS that? The incorrect one, I mean? We can eliminate that location and look elsewhere.
Just my thoughts.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
But we might be able to get an overlay to match perfectly with
any
building that had the same sort of configuration. I don't know that the EXACT match is necessary for this particular feature of the P.(or any other P.) --I think any "stairstep" type of architecture (if it IS architecture at all) would be considered a good match. The reason I say this is because of the vagueness of most of the matches in the images. A good example is the outline of the state of Ohio in the Cleveland pic---it's just vaguely the outline of Ohio--not exact at all. Ohio has a distinctive "shield" shape--and if you just get that much of it, you will understand it's meant to be Ohio. That's the vagueness I mean. It doens't have to match the exact stairsteppy thing on the buildings--
just the fact that one of the buildings is a stairstep configuration
is probably the thing we are supposed to be looking at. Of course, arguments can be made for exactness as well--the columns in the Image 4 WERE exact. So was the wall, though its proportions were skewed by its placement in the Image. In Chicago, the Water tower was exact, if you remove the windmill blades. The statue wasn't. It was just slightly different enough so you would recognize it if you saw it and compared the two, but not to "recognize" it as an "AHA!--I know that statue!" moment. The exact location of the casque, however, WAS exactly depicted.
Which leads me to this: if in both solutions we have EXACT depictions of the location of the casque, then what would that be in Image 9? It would almost HAVE to be the legeater---but we
cannot
dig at the legeater in Montreal. So that would mean (a) there has to be
another
legeater, and (b)
it's not in Montreal!
What other images in that picture would be as precise a location? Nothing I can see. The legeater and the blob--whatever that blob is---HAVE to be exactly where the casque resides, just as the wall and the "fixture" in the other solves are exactly depicted. I can't see BP doing this inconsistently--it wouldn't be fair to the reader,
or
support his statement that these were all supposed to be found within a few months.
I really think we ought to quit looking in Montreal and concentrate on finding some blob and legeater in St. Louis. If Johann's solution was incorrect---as BP said--where exactly WAS that? The incorrect one, I mean? We can eliminate that location and look elsewhere.
shecrab wrote::
What other images in that picture would be as precise a location? Nothing I can see. The legeater and the blob--whatever that blob is---HAVE to be exactly where the casque resides, just as the wall and the "fixture" in the other solves are exactly depicted. I can't see BP doing this inconsistently--it wouldn't be fair to the reader
The statue was as exact a match as the boy in New orleans. The only difference was the arrow.
The outline of the building in cleveland was an exact match, not just similar. Its actually very difficult to find something that exactly matches a stair step, as there are differences posible in the height and width of every stairstep. unlike the map matches which admittedly are vague the stairstep matches the building's top perfectly on every step, almost as if it were traced. Like in cleveland and chicago, BP has demostrated architectual features in the pictures are exact.
I disagree completely that the images shown in the pictures indicate proximity to the casque. the water tower and skycraper were miles from their casques.(although in a direct line.)
I have a big problem with you saying
not too long ago I put forth the premise that we should be using the solved verses to deconstruct the unsovled ones and you specifically said that there is no way we can do that because We cant be sure BP followed a set formula for each verse, you were quite adamant about it and I had to admit you were correct. Besides just because you haven't found the "Local confirmer" in the image doesnt mean it isnt there. It could be something as obvious as the checkerboard, or the hands..
I agree with you though, if there is/was a legeater in St.Louis, This is the most likely St Louis image.
I think researching the manufacturer of the legeater is a dead end.
Even if you were to find the manufacturer, the odds on them having detailed information on locations of lamp bases is slight.
Lets Assume that you do find the manufacturer and they do have a ship list that indicates 1 or even 100 legeater bases were shipped to St Louis for the fair...
So? None of that indicates a legeater in St Louis in 1981...
You either need to find a legeater (an exact match like the one in montreal) or
find somebody who remembers one that was there in 1981.
I think your best bet is the wanted posters...
Until then, The exact match of the legeater in Montreal , the stairsteps, the p7, the lat/lon and the map, makes this most likely a Montreal image.
Why should we quit looking in Montreal? In what way does looking in Montreal, limit or impede looking in St Louis?
maltedfalcon
Also any solution St. Louis or Montreal will need to resolve the blob thingy.
This has been suggested as a solution.
but I don't think so, at first glance it is has steps, and flowing water, which is a possible reason for the curved arcs, but once the blob is blown up to match the height of the fountain, the width, step sizes and positions become all wrong. included is views of the fountain from two different sides so one can extrapolate there isnt a view of the fountain that would match the blob,
The top of the fountain definitely does not match the top of the blob...
Still if a photo of this fountain taken from a different direction matches exactly, That would be a big plus in the St Louis direction.
who is on the ground in St.Louis who can go look at this fountain and take pictures
Cormac
""" The statue was as exact a match as the boy in New orleans. The (indian) only difference was the arrow. """
Actually... the boy in the picture is wearing a ball cap and different clothes.... and the indian's back arm is missing and instead is forward with an arrow.
So we are not dealing with exact matches... but extremely similar matches that leave little doubt.
There is a 4th side to the fountain we haven't seen, and at an angle the upper portion of the fountain looks like a concrete V shape.
Unfortunately both cities have possible connections
forest_blight
malted - the fit of the sculpture in Chicago is even more exact than what you depict. JJP painted the Bowman, not the Spearman. They do look similar to one another, though.
shecrab
Unknown:
The outline of the building in cleveland was an exact match, not just similar.
Unknown:
Its actually very difficult to find something that exactly matches a stair step, as there are differences posible in the height and width of every stairstep. unlike the map matches which admittedly are vague the stairstep matches the building's top perfectly on every step, almost as if it were traced.
Unknown:
Like in cleveland and chicago, BP has demostrated architectual features in the pictures are exact.
Unknown:
I disagree completely that the images shown in the pictures indicate proximity to the casque. the water tower and skycraper were miles from their casques.(although in a direct line.)
Unknown:
not too long ago I put forth the premise that we should be using the solved verses to deconstruct the unsovled ones and you specifically said that there is no way we can do that because We cant be sure BP followed a set formula for each verse, you were quite adamant about it and I had to admit you were correct. Besides just because you haven't found the "Local confirmer" in the image doesnt mean it isnt there. It could be something as obvious as the checkerboard, or the hands..
Huh???
I was talking about the shape of OHIO not the shape of the Terminal Tower. I never even mentioned the Terminal Tower.
This is not exactly correct. Any picture with a stairstep could be sufficiently manipulated to match. That leaves enough doubt in my mind to not want to go with it.
I believe that is what I said about SOME of the imagery. In other parts, the elements in the Image are INexact. Just not the locations of the CASQUES.
Are you kidding? In image 4, the wall is EXACTLY where the casque was hidden. EXACTLY. It wasn't "miles" from it, it was THERE.
In Image 5, the FENCE FIXTURE was where the casque was buried...not AT the water tower. I didn't say that. You did not read my post carefully. I never claimed the casque was at the water tower OR the Terminal Tower!
And the statue I was referring to was not the Bowman statue, but the Spirit of the Great Lakes statue in front of the Art Museum. In the Image, it has wings. In reality, it doesn't. I had completely forgotten about the Bowman actually--and I don't have my book here.
I said, if you remember, that I
did not believe there was a formula in the VERSES.
Not the images. I
still
don't believe there is a formula present in the verses. We aren't talking about those in this thread. Nor do I believe the "straight line" theory. I don't think we can sufficiently claim a formula for location using only two images--and that's not what I'm implying. I'm saying only that in the two solved pictures, both show in PICTURES the exact casque locations. And that in Image 9, the only thing that could even BE an exact location was the legeater/blob. I'm not claiming I'm correct--I'm just trying to say that if he DID paint the location, I don't know where else it might be!
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Huh???
No you said
Most
of the images in the picture of which ohio was an example, The terminal tower is an example where it isnt... as a way of saying I thought you were incorrect.
I was also saying you cant assume the legeater/blob is a local confirmer, until you find the casque spot and see what is there. Using it to eliminate Montreal as a possibilty because you cant dig around it doesnt make any sense.
By assuming there is a formula in the pictures but not in the verses you are being inconsistent. It would make sense if there is consistency in the images for their to be consitency in the verses or vice versa.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
I really think we ought to quit looking in Montreal and concentrate on finding some blob and legeater in St. Louis. If Johann's solution was incorrect---as BP said--where exactly WAS that? The incorrect one, I mean? We can eliminate that location and look elsewhere.
Of course the other things are all debatable until the cows come home...
the real question I wanted an answer to was:
Why should we quit looking in Montreal? In what way does looking in Montreal, limit or impede looking in St Louis?
cw0909
[/quote]
Of course the other things are all debatable until the cows come home...
the real question I wanted an answer to was:
Why should we quit looking in Montreal? In what way does looking in Montreal, limit or impede looking in St Louis?
[/quote]
right thats why i posted this link, it is the only real checkerboard ive found in montreal
hxxp://wikimapia.org/#lat=45.4728055&lo ... =0&m=a&v=2
shecrab
Oh heavens...I don't care where anyone looks. It's not my personal belief, but it matters not at all to me if someone else believes it's there....and can show me.
Checkerboards don't have to be reality--they can be symbolic. The most symbolic checkerboard I've seen is in St. Louis---the Purina logo. Other people have other ideas.
I should have added this to my other post, but forgot.
cw0909
shecrab wrote::
Oh heavens...I don't care where anyone looks. It's not my personal belief, but it matters not at all to me if someone else believes it's there....and can show me.
Checkerboards don't have to be reality--they can be symbolic. The most symbolic checkerboard I've seen is in St. Louis---the Purina logo. Other people have other ideas.
I should have added this to my other post, but forgot.
i know that is the first thing i thought of when i saw pic
then the legeater showed up, im still looking for one in STL
but looking in montreal also for more clues
still looking at blob also, blob seems to go with that legeater
have been on the thought ,blob is a fountian and has a legeater in, on around,
or maybe the blob represents someother type of structure
cw0909
ravel07 wrote::
cw0909: I'm all for hearing new ideas and I'd be happy to look at possible locations in Montreal. However, I think we need to focus the search a little bit more. The legeater was found in the heart of downtown Montreal, and that makes sense if there is a treasure in Mtl: Preiss wouldn't have buried a treasure in a remote part of the city. So I think we should focus on downtown Montreal instead of finding things all over the city. For instance, parc Notre-Dame de Grâce is not at all close to the legeater (not within walking distance, anyway), and I highly doubt that Preiss would've gone in that part of the city. So unless we find additional clues, I'm not going to make a trip out there.
As for the club, didn't someone already ask them about the legeater? I'm pretty sure it's on this thread, and I remember the club saying that they didn't have any information about it. If I'm wrong and nobody actually asked them, then I'll be happy to go there on a Sunday and get some info.
ravoel07, in cleveland the terminal tower is in the heart of downtown cleveland, yet it was buried
4.2 miles away ...i drove it today from st clair 2 blocks north of tower, and doing a google map check i got,
miles by car for the below
chicago art institute... grant park 1.3 mile
milwaukee city hall... lake park east newbury 2.9 miles
Girouard Park, NDG Rue Sherbrooke Montréal.... drumond 4.5 miles
checkerboard link
hxxp://wikimapia.org/#lat=45.4728055&lo ... =0&m=a&v=2
im thinking it is worth a look, as there is a fountian there also
3-4 miles does not seem remote to me, and i dont think he walked to any of the sites
sorry no time for pics, here in cleve
thanks ravel07 for your reply
slappybuns
lucky you cw0909! maybe seeing a place where a casque was found will give you some insight to BP's thinking.
Thanks for the milage of the found casques.
i looked at your map for girouard park and it said the real name is Notre Dame-de-Grace Park. our old man in the image could be a woman and she could be saying grace
Cormac
Bowman picture
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... Indian.jpg
Yes... much more exact
I really think that researching 2 locations is not a waste of time.
Start 2 new posts... Image 9 Montreal Possibilities and Image 9 St Louis Possibilities...
The real wast of time is arguing about anything when we really know nothing.
We have some good ideas both ways... no reason not to keep looking.
Cormac
Here are a couple of Montreal ideas I found.
Looking at the right side of the shirt the bent collar makes a similar shape to that of the Island of Montreal
of course there is the Legeater (lamp base) at the Mount Stephen Club, 1440 rue Drummond, Montreal
now here is a long shot....
Looking at his hands we get the idea of a church... his hands in the "here is the steeple" pose...
so I looked into churches near the Legeater
Only a few blocks away is The Church of Saint Andrew and St Paul
which is the regimental church of The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada.
Rue Sherbrooke Ouest at rue Redpath, Montréal, QC
corner of Sherbrooke and Redpath
Here is the badge of The Black Watch of Canada...
note the Oval shape like that of the Opal in his hat...
note the X shape like that on his broach...
note the Step shape like that on the neckline of his coat...
even the squares (though not checkers) like the squares on his coat.
then note a nearby park with the markings much like the hashmarks (for lack of a better word) above the Step shape on the neckline of the coat
then note a view from that very park from near the lake ... the building seen overtop the trees...
(Lac des Castors, Mont-Royal, Montreal.... my guess is the Oratoire St-Joseph)
fox
Cormac wrote::
The real wast of time is arguing about anything when we really know nothing.
We have some good ideas both ways... no reason not to keep looking.
Nice ideas all around Cormac. What I really liked hearing was this:
Couldn't have said it better my friend.
cw0909
was looking around boston and found this,
wonder if the legeater co. made this too
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/el_ramon/2 ... 094528@N01
slappybuns
good find cw0909! it's not our legeater, but it's same idea. i looked in new york for something like that because of the dutch connection in the picture, never came up with anything.
cw0909
slappybuns wrote::
good find cw0909! it's not our legeater, but it's same idea. i looked in new york for something like that because of the dutch connection in the picture, never came up with anything.
now if i knew where on commonwealth it was , i might be able to ask where it came from
not sure if it belongs to the city or some building
slappybuns
the picture b4 that one is 333 commonwealth.....if that helps
johann
I would kine to find a legeater here in St. Louis. My first theory (which BP rejected) was at the Shakespeare statue in Tower Grove Park.
cw0909
333 commonwealth is where the lamp is there are two, one on one side of walkway
and the other side of walkway
the building is condos, so prob has change managment and owners several times over the years
slim chance of finding out anything about the co that made the lamps
fox
I still find it very difficult to move on to other locations because of that darned "exact" legeater...but, if St Louis is the other possible location, what ever happened to all of the research being done on the Vandeventer Place Gates in Forest Park being {if I remember correctly} good matches for the arched eyes in this P?
hxxp://stlouispatina.blogspot.com/2007/ ... gates.html
...man we have gone over soooo many darned theories, haven't we?
Cormac
The thing that bugs me about St Louis (Legeaters aside) is there is no 38
the image shows a 39
38 puts you in IL
Any thoughts?
boogieman
Montreal- 45 and 73.
St Louis- 38 and 90
MISSOURI
Cape Girardeau 37° 14' N 89° 35' W
Columbia AP (S) 38° 58' N 92° 22' W
Farmington AP 37° 46' N 90° 24' W
Hannibal 39° 42' N 91° 21' W
Jefferson City 38° 34' N 92° 11' W
Joplin AP 37° 9' N 94° 30' W
Kansas City AP 39° 7' N 94° 35' W
Kirksville AP 40° 6' N 92° 33' W
Mexico 39° 11' N 91° 54' W
Moberly 39° 24' N 92° 26' W
Poplar Bluff 36° 46' N 90° 25' W
Rolla 37° 59' N 91° 43' W
St. Joseph AP 39° 46' N 94° 55' W
St. Louis AP 38° 45' N 90° 23' W
St. Louis CO 38° 39' N 90° 38' W
Sikeston 36° 53' N 89° 36' W
Sedalia--Whiteman AFB 38° 43' N 93° 33' W
Sikeston 36° 53' N 89° 36' W
Springfield AP 37° 14' N 93° 23' W
forest_blight
The theory -- which I think can be traced back to fox -- is that the latitudes and longitudes "box in" the casque's location, they don't run directly through it. When they appear at all, we are supplied only with whole-number latitudes and longitudes. St. Louis is boxed in by 38, 39, 90, and 91. I see what may be a 39 on his forehead, but making the other possible numbers fit would be a stretch.
In P8, the 30, 95, and 96 are pretty obvious, and lo and behold, Houston TX is boxed in by 29, 30, 95 and 96.
In P2, we see 32, 33, 79, and 80, the "box" for Charleston SC. Of course, the map of Charleston Harbor helps as well.
etc.
scottrocks7
I agree I think this is STL although the legeater will need more investigation. I also think the Image is telling us Verse 6 and it looks like Verse 6 goes to Forest Park. Same old broken record therory have not had time to investigate further.
slappybuns
i was thinking what if... the legeater is just to represent a satyr........
i wanted to see if there was one in st. louis, the museum or something, and i see where "Puck's cafe is in the art museum in forest park...i think puck is a satyr.........i haven't done any research on that cafe, but i do know, there's a lot of mention of four star restaurants in the field guide, plus pictures.....
i started out in new orleans looking at the satyrs in the botanical garden, thinking, "namesakes"
here's some pics of satyrs:
hxxp://narzil.tfcentral.com/za13.jpg
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ladysatyr.JPG
and the ones in new orleans:
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
all that, and it doesn't take you to the page, lol................click on enrique alferez 1901( 3rd column), then scroll down to #27
maltedfalcon
If that were true ,then I would expect it to be more generic and not an exact copy of a lamp that exists in montreal....
Cormac
Interesting buildings in Montreal
Notre-Dame de Bonsecours
shecrab
Puck wasn't a satyr. He was a hobgoblin.
And in any event, a satyr is a mythological figure from the Greek--and Puck was a character in Shakespeare based on Faerie lore, which isn't Greek mythology (though there are a few elements of mythology in the play, the story and characters aren't BASED on it.) I'm sure you know that, but the two aren't related.
maltedfalcon
I thought he was a faun...
bigmattyh
Okay, I'm coming back out of the shadows. I thought I could stay away. I couldn't.
A Case for Why This Image Is One City and Not the Other
Or, Let's Look at the Latitudes and Longitudes and See If We Can Make Any Coherent Sense of Them.
It's long been established that longitudes and latitudes are baked into the pictures to give the reader clues about which city the image corresponds to. I'd like to point out a couple of points, though, that are probably important to keep in mind. Just to be totally on solid ground here, I'll point out the examples of the confirmed solves:
Cleveland:
* Real lat/long: 41°28′56″N 81°40′11″W
* The numbers 1442 and 1881 are large and obvious.
Chicago:
* Real lat/long: 41°52′55″N 87°37′40″W
* The collar has an 88
* The sails of the windmill have a 41 and an 87.
A couple of points:
1. The coordinates describe a bounding box, forming a square around the city with a combination of latitudes and longitudes.
2. Sometimes the digits have to be flipped. (For example, 1442 becomes 14, 42 -- which becomes 41, 42.)
Not too controversial stuff here.
But notice something too -- BP doesn't always have to give all four sides of the bounding box. Just three. Three is the minimum you'd need to zero in on any particular city. So for Cleveland, we have 1442 and 1881, which becomes 41, 42 and 81, forming a box around its coordinates. For Chicago, we have 41, 87, and 88, forming a box around its coordinates.
We use this to confirm other images. For example, in image 7, we have around the corners of the clock face, 19, 29, 90. Flip the 19 to make it a 91, and you have 29, 90, 91. That bounds New Orleans pretty well.
Maybe we can do the same for this picture and get a little more confident as to whether this image is St. Louis or Montreal or some other city.
Okay, so let's start from scratch and see what numbers we have in this picture. Can we make out a clear bounding box?
A few possibilities:
The weird hair curl: 73 or 37
This flower symbol: 46 or 64
Another interpretation: 67 or 76
Another: 57 or 75
This could be 47 or 74. Also maybe 41, 14, or 91, 19.
Are there others? Hard to tell. But you can make a pretty solid case for any of these.
We've got -- in numerical order -- 14, 19, 37, 41, 46, 47, 57, 64, 67, 73, 74, 75, 76, 91. Of these, we can form pairs with: 46-47, 73-74, 74-75, 75-76. The singles are 14, 19, 37, 41, 57, 64, 67, 91. Of course any of the pairs could be singles too.
As long as we have a pair and a single, we have enough to form a bounding box.
This is a lot of combinations. But I do think it can help us eliminate some possibilities.
St. Louis: 38°37′38″N 90°11′52″W
Bounding box: 38, 39, 90, 91.
Of all those numbers, I can only find 91.
Montreal: 45°30′N 73°40′W
Bounding box: 45, 46, 73, 74
We have 46, 73 and 74 clearly
in the image
.
Of course it could be some other third city as well. But I think if it's between St. Louis and Montreal, the numbers in the image
do
support Montreal, but they
do not
support St. Louis.
Hope this is helpful and/or constructive.
slappybuns
wb bigmattyh, we need you
are you there in montreal?
( i know it doesn't help), the musical note numbers could also be "40", 4 at the top and 0 at the bottom , and also beside your "73" in the hair i can see "45".
your post had me looking here again and because of the whole rembrandt look of the picture, i found rembrandt did a picture of "st. joseph's dream", and there is a st. joseph's oratory right there at mount royal park......
so far, i've found this "way of the cross, fountain of redemption" picture" with a lamb (cloven hooves, lol), 'tho i know we already have the lamp post at the st. stephen club.
still, the reference to rembrandt in this picture is overwhelming to me.
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/flyingkumquat/212691346/
"way of the cross"...........the crossed fingers, and of course the big cross at mount royal
thinking of verse 10 with this, because of the "grey" spelling..........."him of hard word in 3 volumes could be frederick law olmsted:
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=1GcEAA ... &ct=result
found these pictures, look at the hat on jacques cartier, does it look like the hat on our guy?
hxxp://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/3a8e6d/
"St. Joseph's Dream"
hxxp://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt167.html
st. joseph's oratory is "45" "73".............the numbers i see in the hair, but i don't know if those plaques are close to it
slappybuns
well i found jacques cartier monument:
hxxp://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indivAllPix0008331.htm
luckily the jewel (in image 9) isn't right beside the dents in the hat
couple more photos i thought were interesting:
hxxp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-0fi4Q9KP54/S ... tory+2.jpg
our blob?
hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/294642 ... 3124FepPiW
the brickwork at the top
hxxp://family.webshots.com/photo/250861 ... 3124LRkaUk
shecrab
Unknown:
Frederick Law Olmsted (April 25, 1822 – August 28, 1903) was an American landscape designer and father of American landscape architecture, famous for designing many well-known urban parks, including Central Park and Prospect Park in New York City.[1] Other projects include the country's oldest coordinated system of public parks and parkways in Buffalo, New York, the country's oldest state park, the Niagara Reservation in Niagara Falls, New York, Mount Royal Park in Montreal, the Emerald Necklace in
Boston,
Massachusetts, the Belle Isle Park, in Detroit, Michigan, the Grand Necklace of Parks including Washington Park in
Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, the Cherokee Park (and the entire parks and parkway system) in Louisville, Kentucky, the Jackson Park, the Washington Park, the Midway Plaisance in
Chicago
for the World's Columbian Exposition, the landscape surrounding the United States Capitol building, George Washington Vanderbilt II's Biltmore Estate in Asheville, and Montebello Park in St. Catharines, Ontario.
Perhaps there is a common thread in the book with reference to these parks---all designed by the same man....?
slappybuns
shecrab, that has been mentioned before, i'm not sure by who......the only original part i had was maybe the line "him of hard word in 3 volumes" could be referencing him or the monument
bigmattyh
slappybuns wrote::
are you there in montreal?
shecrab wrote::
Frederick Law Olmsted...
Nah, I'm in Austin. Wish I were closer to a casque city though. I grew up in Houston and spent many hours in Hermann Park and the Children's Zoo as a kid, but alas, that casque is gone. Fun to know that I may have walked right over it, maybe even within months of it being buried.
We need more people in Montreal -- or at least more people here who know the city.
It is interesting how many parks he's been involved with that have shown up in the hunt. But also, look at just how prolific he was as a landscape designer. Who else had anywhere near the level of involvement with so many parks in this country -- or this continent? He was the leading park designer at the height of a phase of development that saw an explosion of public parks.
Is Olmsted a deliberate connection? Nah. Grant Park in Chicago -- where we know for sure a casque was buried -- was designed by D.H. Burnham. I couldn't find who designed Rockefeller Park in Cleveland, but it isn't on any list of Olmsted's commissions that I could find.
slappybuns
bigmattyh,
hxxp://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory. ... s/538.html
i haven't found the other one yet.
shecrab
I wasn't talking about specific parks--just specific cities in the hunt.
slappybuns
i haven't given up on houston yet, bigmattyh,
i just can't, still think it's closer to the hospital, because of the mask, i didn't see a djinn in the book with a mask. .............. i still believe in magic
............i wish i could go see these places.....well, i've been to battery park in ny, and kitty hawk and charleston, but that was all b4 i ever heard of this hunt, except charleston i got a fast trip there after i knew about this hunt, but it was kindof not that great, too much to see in too little time........i'm not even sure if i would even ever dig, but would love to see the places and hope for an epiphany (is that the word?, and is it spelled right? lol)
mostly, i'd just like to find the very thing someone needed to solve the location.
fox
slappybuns wrote::
i was thinking what if... the legeater is just to represent a satyr........
I really dont think our legeater is a satyr. The hooves may or may not be correct and that is all it has going for it...
I still believe our legeater {if it represents something at all} represents the Chimera.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimaira
shecrab
Unknown:
I still believe our legeater {if it represents something at all} represents the Chimera.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimaira
I think I would have to agree here. Especially since the "leg-eating" figure is one that Etruscans used numerous times in their artwork. It fits.
maltedfalcon
I think it simply represents a lamppost in montreal, but maybe I am being too simplistic...
bigmattyh
maltedfalcon wrote::
I think it simply represents a lamppost in montreal, but maybe I am being too simplistic...
I'm with you there, Malted. I don't even like the fact that it's this lamppost, because of how unclear it is as to how you get from the lamppost to the casque site. The nearest park to the legeater is small, surrounded by tall buildings and is 2-3 blocks away (Dorchester Square). A more likely park is 4-5 blocks away (Mont Royal), and even then it's not clear how you'd get to either of them from this club in the middle of an urban area.
Maybe it's time to take another look at the verses and see if they can help.
wilhouse
slappybuns wrote::
i haven't given up on houston yet,
you should, there's not 2 casques here...
and don't say I haven't found one. No, don't!
wilhouse
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
I think it simply represents a lamppost in montreal, but maybe I am being too simplistic...
I never said I didn't...just that if it did represent something, the chimera fits better then the satyr. I too believe that it is nothing more then a lamppost in downtown Montreal.
slappybuns
me too guys, i was just wondering "what if" ...
but while i'm wondering, does anyone see anything on p. 167, the union jack, that looks like mount royal? i mean, besides, the handkerchief that could be a mountain, and the tea cup with maple leaf.
maybe it's a restaurant in mount royal that serves "tea"
look at this:
"Mount Royal Park was officially opened on Queen Victoria’s birthday, Wednesday, May 24, 1876. The opening ceremony on the mountain was preceded by a parade through the streets of Montréal."
and on page 166 in the book, "The Union Jack finds maximum scope for his activities on such patriotic occasions as the Queen's birthday....."
i figure that monument i found of Olmsted is here:
"Olmsted wished to preserve the natural charm of the mountain. The winding path he laid out, which today bears his name, was designed to allow people to discover the beauty of this natural space."
shecrab
fox wrote::
I never said I didn't...just that if it did represent something, the chimera fits better then the satyr. I too believe that it is nothing more then a lamppost in downtown Montreal.
Well I think it's the symbol of the Great Etruscan land migration of 3502 BC. The predator eating the hooved mammal symbolizes the greater power of the universe swallowing up the minor life-forces of the inhabitants upon it.
1
So there.
1
Yes, this is facetious.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Well I think it's the symbol of the Great Etruscan land migration of 3502 BC. The predator eating the hooved mammal symbolizes the greater power of the universe swallowing up the minor life-forces of the inhabitants upon it.
1
So there.
1
Yes, this is facetious.
Actually now that you mention it. I see the connection. but you are mistaken it was 3501 BC
shecrab
AARRRGH. I got it mixed up with the OTHER Great Etruscan Land MIgration!! I hate it when that happens!!
slappybuns
'k, guys, i'm sorry if i confused anyone with rembrandt! i'm dropping that course. i believe it's something to do with jacques cartier.
hxxp://data2.archives.ca/ap/c/c011226k.jpg
could be bridge, park, monument.
what is that in the blocks after the opal? x's? i left my eyes in the bedroom.
slappybuns
but then again.............lol
you guys are gonna kill me.........i'm so wishy washy,
but look at this picture of the maine monument in central park......and i know BP said there wasn't one in central park, right? but look.
at the right angle this could look like the leg eater.
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/randylevine/213792836/
i've always liked this image to go with new york because of the obvious dutch connection and the canarsie (spl?) tribe.....
but then again...i go see all these mosaic benches at grant's tomb ....(which goes with image 12)
hxxp://mosaicartsource.wordpress.com/20 ... york-city/
which has these eagles too:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/saintseminole/ ... 190235371/
and the eagles at the maine monument:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1130546 ... 192309086/
the lady at the maine monument:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1130554 ... 192309086/
cw0909
IS this a LEGEATER
i was looking for an eagle, for p-12 and ran across this.
looks like a legeater, can not find a better pic,
look at lamp in the first 2 pics, on the left
when i blew it up it got blurry
whoops a freind pointed out it maybe a hoof, but the leg is not bent, arrrrrrrrrr
hxxp://www.nyc-architecture.com/WBG/wbg020.htm
and this is a great site for buildings in new york
slappybuns
i like it cw!
i found this picture:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/945460916/
how about this guys for BP's play on words like oil of L.A.................................Albee square.......isle of b.
which is north of prospect park.
circles circles, i wish for a sure thing....i just read this:
"Founded in 1851, the New York Times has long been known as the Grey Lady for its stolid, conservative, upright....."
which is close to bryant park, who was a poet..."rhapsodic man's soil"
happy thanksgiving everyone!!
cw0909
thanks slappy close no go though. wonder if it was made by the same
co. that did the legeater
happy thanksgiving to you and everyone here
Cormac
any current thoughts on a tie to a verse?
Cormac
Cormac wrote::
of course there is the Legeater (lamp base) at the Mount Stephen Club, 1440 rue Drummond, Montreal
Here's what I found today...that I had not seen... so forgive if it's a re-post...
also at the Mount Stephen Club... a close-up of the columns behind the legeater lamp post....
What are the chances of the "legeater" and the flower being at the same place...
Cormac
Turns out the picture was found with other pictures posted by one of our hunters...
didn't realize it until after I posted...
so I'm sure it's probably a repost....
but I still like it
xlurker
I saw that too. Maybe the casque is at the club. I still think there is enough ground there.
cw0909
xlurker wrote::
I saw that too. Maybe the casque is at the club. I still think there is enough ground there.
that would suggest v-5.............Get permission To dig out.
i think it is just a confirmer to the general area, but could also mean close by,
if the other two, had the flower, real ,carved or any other type of look a like
near the casque site, and im not sure if this was the case in the 2 found
maltedfalcon
Well you know I am a proponent of the montreal caque because of the legeater.
But I want to point out, the legeater is an exact match and is basically inarguable, until a legeater is found elswhere,
the flower on the pillar is not an exact match. the petals on the pillar are even and perfect.
the flower in the picture has irregular petals and is not perfectly formed. and it has many centers rather than one dot.
So far site confirmers in the images have been perfect. I would say -not a match...
cw0909
so malt have the flowers been used as a confirmer
maltedfalcon
not sure what your question is.
I was saying in cleveland the images that were local confirmers in picture, (fountain, columns, wall, etc...)
were exact representations.
Same thing with chicago, (statue, fixture, fence. etc..)
So I would expect if there were site confirmers in image 9, they would also be exact.
The flower in image 9 really does not match the flower on the column...
What did your question mean?
cw0909
Posted by: maltedfalcon Today at 06:21:03 pm
What did your question mean?
malt im just wondering if the flowers, were/are used as confirmers
at the casque site, or are they just for birth flower as listed in
hxxp://thesecret.pbwiki.com/
and if not used as a confirmer at the casque site to what end does the birth flower serve,
a clue to what,
fox
No one really knows for sure but it is believed that the flower is yet another confirmer for the birth month....along with a birthstone and "some" number system representing the month. Not really sure how the birth month ties in to anything as of yet though....
cw0909
thanks fox
a buddy suggestd that, may be when they where buired,
or the month that the state, city,or park was founded
or dedicated. i have not looked into this idea, as
it seems there is enough in the pics to find the city
without the birth idea
cw0909
may have found the dutch connection
was talking to the neighbor, about his slate roof repair, on the net we go
while we are looking he mention, a story he heard of a small house in N.Y.
for sale for 2 mill$, that link i lost,but i did find these for the addy
he remembered the addy, from the lost link
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/371206250/
then this link mentioned dutch gables,and i remember someone had posted about the
neck line, and some building in montreal, i think the building was built after the book
then a few more like the small house was posted, then a disscuion on lots of buildings
look like that, so that may not be what we look for, or something like that, i did not
go back and read it all again, anyway i went looking, and i think the gables is the dutch
connection we are looking for, mcgill U has a dutch gable or 2, and is near the park
.........mcgill links at bottom of post........
this is the dutch gable link
hxxp://wikimapia.org/8279070/75-1-2-Bed ... Cary-Grant
neck gables
hxxp://www.european-architecture.info/H ... TERDAM.htm
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/thepretender/1708052913/
stepped gables
hxxp://www.european-architecture.info/H ... P-STEP.htm
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow-stepped_gable
mcgill
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=fVEeYO ... al&f=false
Cormac
Also found within a block of Mount Stephen Club is this image. Notice the X on the building in the bottom left corner..
we could now possibly have the "legeater", the flower, and the "X" all within one block...
fox
nice eyes. i still think that that is our leg eater and can't believe so many people are so desperate in putting this picture in another city. what more do you guys want?
animal painter
Fox,
Some obvious "checkerboard pattern" somewhere close by would be nice...
(I agree that the legeater is a very convincing anchor to Montreal.)
AP
Cormac
Is there anyone local to Montreal or anyone heading up there any time soon that would search for us?
I'm searching photos online around the area, but online resources are limited.
I also can't get street level views there like I can with certain cities in the US.
I would love to see the image that is next to the legeater that matches the fountain/sculpture in the St Louis park as well as a better match for the checker patern.
I would also love to see support of a V with this image pointing to Montreal.
cw0909
Cormac wrote::
Is there anyone local to Montreal or anyone heading up there any time soon that would search for us?
I'm searching photos online around the area, but online resources are limited.
I also can't get street level views there like I can with certain cities in the US.
I would love to see the image that is next to the legeater that matches the fountain/sculpture in the St Louis park as well as a better match for the checker patern.
I would also love to see support of a V with this image pointing to Montreal.
chad, and anyone else, would you like to go, for a walk with me
yippie we can google walk, montreal now
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... CBMQ8gEwAA
cw0909
Cormac wrote::
Also found within a block of Mount Stephen Club is this image. Notice the X on the building in the bottom left corner..
we could now possibly have the "legeater", the flower, and the "X" all within one block...
this building is next door to the legeater, i meant to mention this in last post
it would be to the right of pic i posted
i hate to do it, but ive looked and cant find that directional thing
was it right, left, left or..................
and would we agree that the legeater is the iconic image
slappybuns
could habitat 67 be our weeble wobble thing?
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_67
hxxp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CBoQ9QEwBA
if the hands are symolizing "here is the steeple", wouldn't you just dig somewhere around the 'big cross" at mont royal park?....umm, using the right verse of course ;D :D
i know a steeple's not a cross........but an "X", can be a symbol for "cross"
slappybuns
if this image is for montreal, i found this chessboard at notre dame de grace park which is still on sherbrooke road that we traveled on to get to mont royal park. (just going the other way)
only saw this one statue and the big chessboard you can see from google earth.
the chessboard would go with the image.
hxxp://wikimapia.org/50201/Chess-Board
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbeales ... otostream/
WhiteRabbit
I was wondering how someone could pick up the book, and find the Montreal legeater.
Here's one way.
Imagine you know nothing about this puzzle.
You see that image 4 is connected with the Job Goblin.
(Check out the workmen, and the centaur.)
With this train connection in mind, the monument looks like a railway tunnel.
The "tunnel" is marked 1881, matching the number on the front of the train.
So...you've got trains, and a date of 1881. With a bit of research, you find that the
Canadian Pacific Railway
was founded in 1881, and George Stephen was the first president.
You turn up at his house, and see the legeater.
At this point, you're confused, because you spotted the legeater in image 9.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
A dozen paintings share the clues
Although the emphasis is on using only a specific image and verse combination to solve a casque, I think that the field guide, and other verses and images, may also hold clues for each puzzle.
maltedfalcon
Ok my mind has collapsed into a puddle....
anyway I read that as 82
but remember I know have permanent brain damage..
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The Montreal Lacrosse Club was a lacrosse club in the Canadian city of Montreal, Quebec. The Club is notable in the history of lacrosse as it was responsible for establishing the first set of written rules of the game
...fair enough, could be one or two...a lot of the numbers in the book are pretty ambiguous. At the moment I suspect this legeater is the right one though, with trains and George Stephen part of some trail.
The Montreal connection seems to fit. Originally called "
City of Mary
".
Marigold
(Calendula) likewise comes from Mary.
When I first saw this pic, the chessboard cloak and the pious look made me wonder if he was a bishop. Considering the X, been thinking about
Brebeuf
and
Lacrosse
, which he apparently named from the resemblance of the racquet to a bishop's crozier.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Lacrosse_Club
(Someone mentioned sand.
Sandford
was another CPR croney.)
maltedfalcon
I totally agree that this image indicates Montreal
But you are looking at it backwards
The iconic image isnt something you find after reading the book.
Its's something the reader would know so that when you saw the book you would know which picture belongs to your city.
The assumption would have been someone in montreal would recognize the legeater
someone in Chicago would recognize the water tower
someone in cleveland would recognize the transit tower.. (at least I think it was the transit tower, but I'm not from cleveland.
I'm from the bay area, so I recognize Goldengate park...
Not that any one reader could recognize all the icons, but that locals would know their icons...
Thinking "I" would never recognize the legeater to be from montreal makes no sense since I am not from montreal...
Occam's razor applies here, hundreds of internet searches. flickr photos, google earth, trying to contact the manufacturer of the legeater....
nobody can find another legeater in any other city (especially St.Louis...)
This picture has to represent Montreal...
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
The assumption would have been someone in montreal would recognize the legeater
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure about that assumption. I was trying to see if there was a way that anyone could find it, not just locals.
shecrab
Unknown:
someone in cleveland would recognize the transit tower.. (at least I think it was the transit tower, but I'm not from cleveland
LOL...obviously! It's the
Terminal Tower
. I'm not from Cleveland either.
(Just kidding!!)
Didn't something (preface? Explanation? Outside info?) once say that the Field Guide was written after the images and poems were written/drawn and without any input to the treasure locations? And that it was nothing more than "filler" for the book? I would not put too much credence into matching images from there and the paintings; this seems like a stretch to me. The paintings themselves have plenty of images, iconic and otherwise, to obscure
and
lead to the casques. The concensus of opinion seems to point to the locations we have already agreed on--for good reason. I cannot think of any other location being valid other than Charleston for image 2, Boston for 11, New York for 12, Milwaukee for 10, Houston for 8, New Orleans for 7, etc. and I think the clues so far uncovered have supported these locations, even though casques were not found there. Casques will probably never be found now--it's just been too long and the landscapes have changed too much. The hunt is fun, and the possibility still exists for finding definitive locations, but I think that really there have just been too many changes.
shecrab
Unknown:
someone in cleveland would recognize the transit tower.. (at least I think it was the transit tower, but I'm not from cleveland
LOL...obviously! It's the
Terminal Tower
. I'm not from Cleveland either.
(Just kidding!!)
Didn't something (preface? Explanation? Outside info?) once say that the Field Guide was written after the images and poems were written/drawn and without any input to the treasure locations? And that it was nothing more than "filler" for the book? I would not put too much credence into matching images from there and the paintings; this seems like a stretch to me. The paintings themselves have plenty of images, iconic and otherwise, to obscure
and
lead to the casques. The concensus of opinion seems to point to the locations we have already agreed on--for good reason. I cannot think of any other location being valid other than Charleston for image 2, Boston for 11,
New
York for 12, Milwaukee for 10, Houston for 8,
New
Orleans
for 7, etc. and I think the clues so far uncovered have supported these locations, even though casques were not found there. Casques will probably never be found now--it's just been too long and the landscapes have changed too much. The hunt is fun, and the possibility still exists for finding definitive locations, but I think that really there have just been too many changes.
WhiteRabbit
(...not the preface...I would have noticed before my copy fell to pieces...)
slappybuns
hi shecrab
whiterabbit,
this is what egbert told me when i was going overboard with the fair folks:
Egbert:
"Don't forget, the field guide was put together by a couple of people from National Lampoon, not BP. I do not know what input, if any, he had in the words or the drawings."
and in the book page 7:
"Across North America,
twelve
treasures are waiting. The key to each requires the proper combination of
one
treasure painting with
one
treasure verse. "
WhiteRabbit
That's not very conclusive though. It can't do any harm to stay open to the possibility of finding clues there...
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit,
New ideas are always welcome!
Here is a suggestion,
go look at the chicago and cleveland solutions.
Then find the links in the Fair Folk section that you think correlate to those specific solutions
Then explain how those links support one of these points.
A - Associating a picture with a city
B - Associating a Verse with a city
C - Associating a picture with a verse.
D - Assisting in clarifying a specific (exact) casque location.
If you can demonstrate a consistent methodology that would be really interesting.
WhiteRabbit
(...cheers maltedfalcon, I'll have a think about that...)
WhiteRabbit
I'm not sure what the current thinking is on which verse goes with this pic, but a couple of people have suggested V5. There's an "Abbot" in the initials, so I was looking at some possibilities for that - eg
John Abbott
, Canada's third Prime Minister. According to his Wikipedia article, he was involved with the Canadian Pacific Railway, and served as President (like George Stephen), though he's not included in
this list
of them. The
John Abbott College
on the
Island of Montreal
is named after him.
Re: the Dutch connection, there's a brief mention of
Jacques Cartier
in a footnote on P27 which is followed by a reference to the competition between the Hurons and the Iroquois for the French and Dutch fur trade. The
Iroquois
were
trading partners
with the Dutch.
* * * * *
(The Wiki suggests St Louis as an alternative to Montreal, so I'll just throw in a thought on "Lane / Two twenty two". Lane two -> Blane, two twenty two -> 44, the year of
Meet Me in St Louis
with songs by
Blane
.)
WhiteRabbit
Another V5 / Abbot idea -
"At twelve paces" sounds like a duel. There was a
notable duel in 1819
which was connected with the beginnings of the
Montreal General Hospital
.
It was established in 1819, then opened for the second time at a different location in 1822 ("two twenty two").
Maude Abbott
trained there (she was a relative of John Abbott), and was involved with some anatomical object called the "Holmes heart" - see
here
. It's not a million miles from the Mount Stephen Club; it's further west, towards the Parc du Mont Royal.
slappybuns
white rabbit, what do you mean by "abbot in the initials" ?
Shrek
I think this is what White Rabbit means
A
wingless bird ascended
B
orn of ancient dreams of fligh
B
eneath the only standing member
O
f a forest
T
o the south
slappybuns
thanks shrek! pretty neat whiterabbit!
Hirudiniforme
animal painter wrote::
Fox,
Some obvious "checkerboard pattern" somewhere close by would be nice...
(I agree that the legeater is a very convincing anchor to Montreal.)
AP
Next door... to the left while facing the restaurant door. This is the left side of that building. The face of it has a different pattern.
slappybuns
wow, good find Hirudiniforme!
WhiteRabbit
Sorry, but could someone remind me of the history of the Canadian casque...? Is there definitely a casque in Canada, or specifically in Montreal, because of some remark by BP ...? Was someone deliberately searching in Montreal when they found the legeater, and if so, why...?
slappybuns
i'll check my notes and see if i have the info whiterabbit.
but was looking at this and thinking, what if the dogleg thing is just saying.........horse shoe........horseshoe falls, and the head part is just a goat for goat island at niagara falls....................just saying maybe
this is what i found in my notes
"Fox:
thanks for the thread Duck. BP verified for me that there was 1 casque buried in Canada."
fox?
and then i found this:
"In 1982, Bantam Books ran newspaper ads announcing a very interesting challenge. Twelve treasure chest had been buried all over the United States and Canada, and each contained a key that could be redeemed for a jewel that was already sitting in a safe-deposit box in a Manhattan Bank. (Together, the twelve jewels were worth more than $10,000 - and those are 1982 dollars.) The whole thing was tied to the publication of The Secret, a now out-of-print book by Sean Kelly and Ted Mann that contained clues as to the chests' whereabouts. Only one was found, in Chicago. According to Byron Preiss, who arranged the contest, the other eleven are still hidden after twenty years and the remaining jewels are still sitting peacefully in the bank."
and this:
From :
Sent : Monday, April 7, 2003 2:08 PM
To :
[email protected]
Subject : Re: "The Secret"
| | | The Secret | Inbox
thanks! yes, there is a treasure in Canada.
WhiteRabbit
Aha, OK. Thanks for confirming that. I'm finding it difficult to pin down a verse for Canada - the dogleg is the only Canadian lead I remember from images or verses.
V1 - Usually Houston and I8 from the 982.
V2 - Usually New Orleans and I7 from Sarmiento.
V3 - Usually Boston from Thucydides/Xenophon and Revere. This image has been suggested for Boston, though it's usually taken as I11.
V4 - solved for I4
V5 - Often taken for Charleston and I2
V6 - Has been suggested for San Fransisco / I1 and Charleston. Loose Canadian connection via Treasure Island / Ballantyne the Brave.
V7 - Has been considered for San Fransisco
V8 - Has been considered for Milwaukee and I10, via the Grand Staircase
V9 - Often taken as Florida and I6, from "The First Chapter" IIRC
V10 - Current favourite for NY and I12
V11 - Often taken as Roanoke and I3 (Oz, land near window)
V12 - solved for I5
This is no way an attempt at a definitive list; just general musings. I know there are lots of options on all these; I'm just trying to decide what to look at next for this image, since there hasn't been any verse discussion on it for years. I might take a look at V3/Boston, and V7/Montreal. Montreal in general doesn't really grab me for some reason, but it looks like it's got to be done...
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The cemetery's Egyptian revival gate and fence were designed by Boston architect Isaiah Rogers
To recap V3/Boston then, it's been pointed out that Trinity Church next to BPL has suitable decoration:
...and a legeater example has been found in BPL. (Although the Montreal one is a perfect match, I'm remaining open-minded about the interpetation of this for the moment. Who knows, maybe George Stephen will turn up in Florida.)
The church was originally in Summer St., burned down, and rebuilt in its present location.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Ch ... mer_Street
)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Church_(Boston
)
Any Dutch tie-ins...?
Boston is named after the Lancashire town, famous for the "Boston Stump", or
St Botolph's church
.
Botolph's
brother
Adolph
became a Dutch bishop.
I'm wondering if the English Boston has Dutch links. Boston Stump has "a collection of books by the Dutch philosopher and theologian Erasmus", and "by the late thirteenth century, the [English] churchyard was probably reserved for less profane activity, for increasingly the use of churches for commercial exchange was considered unseemly, but the area in its vicinity was given over to large houses which were rented by merchants from the Low Countries, France, and Germany."
The Dutchman has 55 chequered squares on each cuff, and I've wondered if this number fits in somewhere. Just had a quick look for any interesting addresses at 55 or 110 in Boston, and came across the
Studio Building
at 110 Tremont beside the
Granary Burying Ground
, final resting place of Revere. It's cropped up before.
This might fit the collar.
(To be precise, it's opposite an alleyway dividing Beantown at 100 from Sargent David Hall at 120. Not sure exactly where the Studio Building is, but Google Street View calls this point 110.)
"Opal is an amorphous form of silica related to quartz"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal
Could this have a street-lamp connection...?
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury-vapor_lamp
cw0909
im still with montreal, since in 2yr i havent found another leg eater, outside of montreal, and the lat and long seem to match
i thought i had posted this b4,if i did i couldnt find it, a 73 backwards in the legeater
what bugs me though , i cant see an iconic image for any where, and that ing would have to lead us past the legeater to where?
maltedfalcon lat and long post for the 45
hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 691#p91691
WhiteRabbit
Thanks cw0909...yeah, after that brief digression I'm inclined to back Montreal again. I was interested to notice:
The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes
A cloud of shining, shifting smoke
Can you picture Yo-Rib and his companions standing, at length, in a few small, heartbroken bands, their backs to the Pacific, as the sky darkens with the oncoming smoke of trains and trade
The venerable Dutch merchant empire of the Lowland Alven was also in its autumn
Trains, Canadian Pacific Railway, George Stephen...must be something in all that Nootka nonsense I reckon...
slappybuns
well, i'm experimenting on this one with niagara falls, the WHIRLPOOL RAPIDS, on the left we have the botanical gardens , queen victoria park and a GOLF COURSE ;D and on the right, robert moses parkway
we have an obvious "79" in the image in the X block for lat and long
and i really like this shape of whirlpool rapids for the collar (just align the big curve from map onto the image)
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 15000&z=13
oh, and NIAGARA means THE STRAIT, and strait means "a slender path"......................verse 10??
and would HARD WORD mean the PRINTED word?
hxxp://www.niagaraparks.com/heritage-tr ... useum.html
haven't had much time yet to do much research
forest_blight
There is no need to squeeze a "73" out of the legeater -- it's in his hair on (our) far right.
WhiteRabbit
Back in Montreal then.
The venerable Dutch merchant empire...
Consider a group of the frugal Lowland Dwarves, the Alven, hovering, invisible, and observing in economic agony...
The Dutch dwarves are merchants, bankers. Money-grubbers. The Alven are venal. It's no coincidence that their Litany initials spell Gloat. (OK, it probably is, but whatever. You get the idea.)
The legeater points to the home of George Stephen ("1" on the map), banker and railway baron, first president of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Just down the road we find their headquarters at Windsor Station ("2").
At the place where jewels abound
(I'm so over Sarmiento...)
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
The place where the jewels abound is a Royal House. The fifteen rows are a 15-storey building.
"In 1916,
Windsor Station
was enlarged upwards with its main tower rising to 15 stories, dramatically altering Montreal's skyline."
"The
House of Windsor
is the current Royal House of the Commonwealth realms."
Let's skip to:
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
The Windsors are the sovereign people, but the palace was in Montreal - the Crystal Palace.
"The
Crystal Palace
was an exhibition hall built for the Montreal Industrial Exhibition of 1860"
This was at (3) on the map. Nearby we find this:
This is the Eaton shopping centre in Sainte-Catherine. Its ninth floor is a noted restaurant.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaton%27s_Ninth_Floor_(Montreal)
So what, you say? Well...
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
This is the ninth, in liturgical terms.
"None, or the Ninth Hour, is a fixed time of prayer of the Divine Office of almost all the traditional Christian liturgies. It consists mainly of psalms and is said around 3 pm"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_(liturgy
)
Just to the north, we find another grand shop...
(The red line shows Ruelle Palace, site of the old Crystal Palace.)
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
Gnomes suggests the Dutch verse, from the P10 map. What is now "The Bay" was
Henry Morgan's
department store.
Morgan's delight -> Morgan le Fay -> Fay's delight
Opposite we have
Phillip's Square
...
...with its statue of
Edward VII
. And that takes us back to the Windsors.
"He was the first British monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which was renamed the House of Windsor by his son, George V."
Only three stand watch
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VII_Monument_(Montreal)
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
There are twenty-one straight lines from end to end of the collar:
cw0909
Unknown:
IDR who had the catalog #,or even if this is the right year catalog
copy has copyright stamp dated 1875
Download and read "Illustrated Catalogue And Price List" by J. W. Fiske Iron Works
sorry not so good a copy for free read,
read now
hxxp://www.onread.com/reader/584668
download
hxxp://www.onread.com/book/Illustrated- ... ist-584668
a much better copy i didnt see a legeater, 2nd link lets you choose how you want to read it
hxxp://www.archive.org/stream/illustrat ... 2/mode/2up
hxxp://www.archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00jwfi
a list of
illustrated catalogue jw fiske
hxxp://tinyurl.com/4swdb8w
my original post
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Only three stand watch
Of the 9 figures on the statue, which 3 are standing watch?
WhiteRabbit
Well...yeah, you spotted the weak link...
It's somewhere close by though, I reckon. Maybe Place Ville-Marie, or Dorchester Square. Currently looking for the crooked collar, and the black blob on the legeater.
cw0909
i think i finally found, the dutch connection to montreal,the
INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, voted in Amsterdam. Netherlands
in 1970 for the summer olympics to be held in montreal,in 1976
about mid pg
hxxp://www.aldaver.com/votes.html
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The Beaver Wars, also called the Iroquois Wars or the French and Iroquois Wars, commonly refer to a series of conflicts fought in the mid-17th century in eastern North America. Encouraged and armed by their Dutch and English trading partners, the Iroquois sought to expand their territory and monopolize the fur trade and the trade between European markets and the tribes of the western Great Lakes region.
Unknown:
The Great Peace of Montreal was a peace treaty between New France and 40 First Nations of North America. It was signed on August 4, 1701, by Louis-Hector de Callière, governor of New France, and 1300 representatives of 40 aboriginal nations of the North East of North America. The treaty ended 100 years of war between the Iroquois, allied to the English, and the French, allied to the Hurons and the Algonquians.
Here's another possible link.
"The Hurons competed with the Iroquois for the Dutch and French fur trade"
- P27
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Iroquois_Wars
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Peace_of_Montreal
WhiteRabbit
Trying to discern pictures in this one is maddening. You'd have to refer back to the book, but this reminds me of a building, like a cathedral or something, or a bridge. I get a sense of this "rugby-post" shape repeated in the distance, anyway.
animal painter
or a bridge...
WhiteRabbit
...yeah, I've thought of trains and bridges in the background to this pic, and billows of steam or smoke, though I'm not sure I'd have seen the trains if I hadn't expected them. There's not much to go on in this one.
animal painter
Here is Concordia (?) bridge in Montreal...from Expo '67.
Just a hint of similarity.
hxxp://members.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/dd4ad/
cw0909
sorry for such a long post,to lazy to do it in parts
just trying to find a way to the legeater
after finding the dutch connection, my post
-------------
my post
i think i finally found, the dutch connection to montreal,the
INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, voted in Amsterdam. Netherlands
in 1970 for the summer olympics to be held in montreal
hxxp://www.aldaver.com/votes.html
--------------
i was thinking what is montreal famous for,or what is the first thing you
think of, thinking about montreal,if youve never been there, the 76 olympics
see the links for the jpeg img i put up
i G walked sherbrooke to drummond,but didnt see anything from img9, that
would say turn here, i could have missed something though,will look again
when i have more time
maybe in the 80s,the streets were dif,like one way then but not now
or no exit from, or it could have been,just a more direct route in the 80s
or something is not on the route from the O stadium anymore
leg eater at mount stephen club montreal
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/2vu/301472 ... otostream/
-------------
anyway looking around from the legeater,and checking old posts,sorry forget
who,but i think the blob is hab67 too
the blob
habitat 67
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_67
hxxp://www.habitat67.com/origine_en.html
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Habitat_panorama.jpg
i think this is whats behind the blob
Montreal Biosphère
The Biosphère of Environment Canada is a museum in Montreal dedicated to water and the
environment. It is located at Parc Jean-Drapeau, on Île Sainte-Hélène in the former
pavilion of the United States for the 1967 World Fair Expo 67.
Expo 67The
architect
of the geodesic dome was Richard Buckminster Fuller. The building
originally formed an enclosed structure of steel and acrylic cells
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Biosph%C3%A8re
hxxp://www.suite101.com/view_image_articles.cfm/1394476
view of biosphere,from where habitat 67 is and the parc de la cite du havre
hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFjTUEvMq2I
----------------
going over to where the sphere is i found this info
the checker pattern, prob represents a racing car flag, and there is a race
track,on the island Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, was called
Île Notre-Dame Circuit, opened in (1978-1982)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Gilles_Villeneuve
circuit map
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%8 ... Villeneuve
).svg
-------------
and the outline of mans collar looks like, lac des regate,in Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
bing map of Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
hxxp://tinyurl.com/4ss3ngq
----------
and im still checking the rest of the island
jpeg links
Montreal-Olympic-Stadium shots
hxxp://lh6.ggpht.com/__eJlLmQ7yoE/Rp7p5 ... G_2017.JPG
hxxp://www.usageorge.com/Wallpapers/Cit ... adium.html
hxxp://www.pbase.com/jcribou/image/29874085
hxxp://montreal.streetviewtours.com/att ... tadium.jpg
Olympic Village, Montreal
hxxp://lh6.ggpht.com/_xy7Q7LUvCGI/S_tzK ... tadium.JPG
hxxp://lh3.ggpht.com/_McMiy9xVvtQ/Somaj ... MG2038.JPG
and info about the island and expo
expo 67 at JEAN-DRAPEAU PARK
hxxp://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/expo ... 604_e.html
Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
hxxp://www.parcjeandrapeau.com/attractions-list.html
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_Jean-Drapeau
cw0909
sorry for such a long post,to lazy to do it in parts
just trying to find a way to the legeater
after finding the dutch connection, my post
-------------
my post
i think i finally found, the dutch connection to montreal,the
INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, voted in Amsterdam. Netherlands
in 1970 for the summer olympics to be held in montreal
hxxp://www.aldaver.com/votes.html
--------------
i was thinking what is montreal famous for,or what is the first thing you
think of, thinking about montreal,if youve never been there, the 76 olympics
see the links for the jpeg img i put up
i G walked sherbrooke to drummond,but didnt see anything from img9, that
would say turn here, i could have missed something though,will look again
when i have more time
maybe in the 80s,the streets were dif,like one way then but not now
or no exit from, or it could have been,just a more direct route in the 80s
or something is not on the route from the O stadium anymore
leg eater at mount stephen club montreal
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/2vu/301472 ... otostream/
-------------
anyway looking around from the legeater,and checking old posts,sorry forget
who,but i think the blob is hab67 too
the blob
habitat 67
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_67
hxxp://www.habitat67.com/origine_en.html
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Habitat_panorama.jpg
i think this is whats behind the blob
Montreal Biosphère
The Biosphère of Environment Canada is a museum in Montreal dedicated to water and the
environment. It is located at Parc Jean-Drapeau, on Île Sainte-Hélène in the former
pavilion of the United States for the 1967 World Fair Expo 67.
Expo 67The architect of the geodesic dome was Richard Buckminster Fuller. The building
originally formed an enclosed structure of steel and acrylic cells
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Biosph%C3%A8re
hxxp://www.suite101.com/view_image_articles.cfm/1394476
view of biosphere,from where habitat 67 is and the parc de la cite du havre
hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFjTUEvMq2I
----------------
going over to where the sphere is i found this info
the checker pattern, prob represents a racing car flag, and there is a race
track,on the island Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, was called
Île Notre-Dame Circuit, opened in (1978-1982)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Gilles_Villeneuve
circuit map
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%8 ... Villeneuve
).svg
-------------
and the outline of mans collar looks like, lac des regate,in Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
bing map of Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
hxxp://tinyurl.com/4ss3ngq
----------
and im still checking the rest of the island
jpeg links
Montreal-Olympic-Stadium shots
hxxp://lh6.ggpht.com/__eJlLmQ7yoE/Rp7p5 ... G_2017.JPG
hxxp://www.usageorge.com/Wallpapers/Cit ... adium.html
hxxp://www.pbase.com/jcribou/image/29874085
hxxp://montreal.streetviewtours.com/att ... tadium.jpg
Olympic Village, Montreal
hxxp://lh6.ggpht.com/_xy7Q7LUvCGI/S_tzK ... tadium.JPG
hxxp://lh3.ggpht.com/_McMiy9xVvtQ/Somaj ... MG2038.JPG
and info about the island and expo
expo 67 at JEAN-DRAPEAU PARK
hxxp://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/expo ... 604_e.html
Parc Jean-Drapeau, QC
hxxp://www.parcjeandrapeau.com/attractions-list.html
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_Jean-Drapeau
WhiteRabbit
Cheers cw0909 - I'll check this out when I get a minute...
cw0909
maybe im on the right track/road,i went back down sherbrooke again and found,a building i had missed, at the top
of the building above the door it seems to have the zig zag pattern,like the mans coat
building with zig zag
hxxp://static.panoramio.com/photos/orig ... 716211.jpg
Centre De Santé Et De Services Sociaux Lucille-Teasdale Sur Sherbrooke-Est En Hiver, Janvier 2011
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/46716211
G map veiw zoom in
hxxp://tinyurl.com/5vg3bsz
the building houses,you need google translator
The Center for Health and Social Services (CSSS) Lucille Teasdale supports the development of a local network of services to improve health and
well-being of the population and access to health services and services social. 3095, rue Sherbrooke Est, Montreal
hxxp://www.cssslucilleteasdale.qc.ca/
cw0909
went back down sherbrooke from O stadium, and found some things i missed
prob nothing but is across street from zig zag building
Lanni Restaurant
3132 Sherbrooke E
Montreal, QC H1W 1B6, Canada
hxxp://tinyurl.com/4gdfqnf
veiw of zig zag and statues
hxxp://tinyurl.com/4veskd2
hands, prob nothing,on the sw corner of sherbrooke and rue st. denis
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6eb2jj9
hxxp://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mS ... 6pINkESvrw
----------------
kinda looks like the frump on his hat,that rough edge on our right, its at parc la fontaine
hxxp://tinyurl.com/62kbvnj
close up
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6fmgvuo
more pics
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/42481597
hxxp://static.panoramio.com/photos/orig ... 481597.jpg
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/kevan_ahma ... otostream/
------------------
im hoping its the blob
may have found the blob, not sure what it is called or how long its been there
it is at the, Musée McCord Museum on sherbrooke
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/36370445
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/19208884
g map blob spot
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6l9mzt7
hxxp://tinyurl.com/64s29la
G street map of blob
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6ddvq2l
Musée McCord Museum
hxxp://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/
intersection of sherbrooke and drummond
hxxp://tinyurl.com/666wqu6
and the legeater
hxxp://tinyurl.com/5tbf5ql
cw0909
Unknown:
im hoping its the blob
may have found the blob, not sure what it is called or how long its been there
it is at the, Musée McCord Museum on sherbrooke
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/36370445
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/19208884
g map blob spot
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6l9mzt7
hxxp://tinyurl.com/64s29la
G street map of blob
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6ddvq2l
man i was so hoping to get near that legater,from something in the img,but doest seem like its going to happen
found info on that blob, it was put there, not sure when,but was an exhibit in the Old Port of Montreal in 1992
it is called An Inukshuk
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ntreal.jpg
must be something from the verse that gets us to the legeater, or maybe im going backwards,like start at the
Parc Jean-Drapeau, on Île Sainte-Hélène , and work toward the O stadium, when i get more time ill look at parks
near the O stadium
slappybuns
probably not serious but i still see the blob as a weeble or "kilroy was here" , the guy peeking over something...........which brings me right back to....guess what? the american transit company gave a trolley car to the real kilroy!......circles circles
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here
3rd story
hxxp://www.allmilitary.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=24573
and isaac asimov wrote a short story about "kilroy" who went back in time to witness important events in history and then
they found a "stone wall" on mars with "kilroy was here" on it..........and guess where isaac asimov grew up...........brooklyn!
WhiteRabbit
...further thoughts on the verse 2 / image 9 Montreal theory described above...
To recap, we have:
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Fifteen-storey Windsor station, and a few blocks north of there we have...
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
The middle of Rue University - U=21.
(It extends from Pines Ave, top left, to Notre-Dame St., bottom right.)
This is where we find
Eaton's
.
Only three stand watch
Just opposite is Les 3 Brasseurs.
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
It's right next to Ruelle Palace.
forest_blight
Les 3 Brasseurs is a French chain that got its start in the late 1980s -- too late for us.
But I do very much like that pattern in the building's facade. Another visual link to Montreal! And only about 4 blocks from our favorite lamppost.
WhiteRabbit
forest_blight wrote::
Les 3 Brasseurs is a French chain that got its start in the late 1980s -- too late for us.
Only three stand watch
Darn it...(thanks Forest)
I was also considering the
"Three Bares" fountain
outside the nearby
Redpath Museum
.
This overview shows the legeater, the station, the Eaton's checkered design, and the statue.
Montreal was originally called Ville Marie (City of Mary), which links to the Dutchman's Marigold (Mary's Gold). Place Ville-Marie, just to the right of Eaton's / Ruelle Palace on the above map, has these five steps leading to it which could be the five steps of the jagged collar. The lamps could be the design at the centre of the flower.
Two lamps, left and right. Flower on the left which looks like a lamp. Legeater on the right, which is also a lamp...
(Take five steps...lit by lamplight...seems strangely familiar somehow.)
Place Ville Marie
known as "
PVM
" is noted for its skyscraper in the shape of a cross, "Royal Bank Tower".
WhiteRabbit
(Post moved to V2...)
animal painter
When you Google on "Montreal P7"..it comes up with
unexplained results...Is it a parking designation or an HIV therapy?
WhiteRabbit
PVM is bordered by Rue Mansfield. Mansfield wrote a story about
Pearl Button
- reminds me of the Ducthman's cap.
slappybuns
i'm just gonna post it all......the whole verse out of the book and add my thoughts, k?
"The venerable Dutch merchant empire of the Lowland Alven was also in its autumn. Their sailor-servants, the Klabautermannikins, made ready their broad-bottomed boats, and away they sailed, to settle peaceably, at length, among rolling hills by a wide river richly lined with cliffs and trees. Clear running creeks they found there, and wildcats in abundance, wherefore they named their new home "kaaterskill" (Wildcat Creek). "
venerable-ancient, extremely old, hallowed by religion, commanding respect
and..............grey (verse 10) means older, ancient, venerable
broad bottomed boats--broadway
empire-type of apple (new york), important holding of a large scope that is controlled by a single family or group, style of architecture (empire state bldg)
wide river--the hudson
maybe the dutch merchant empire is the Dutch East India Company.
autmn....................fall? falls?
to settle peaceably----there is that peace bridge in buffalo,ny
and see how easy i can get two pictures going to the same state
......so, was hoping that this little part at the front of the book would help connect the image and verse.
the dutch description sure seems to point to new york to me, what about u guys?
slappybuns
and it does have a 73 in the hair
slappybuns
i'm thinking that is a golf cart now (not kilroy) and that is just a dogleg (in golf ). and i'm thinking this pic goes with new york, so tomorrow, oh wait, it's the weekend, sometime soon, i'm gonna concentrate on van cortlandt and all other golf courses and parks in new york ;D
lol, latourette's park in staten island could fit for "hard word" or many hard words
WhiteRabbit
Don't forget the intro also links the Dutch to Canada though, via the tales Yo-Rib and the Yar-On (which we're told is "possibly Huron, the Quebec-based tribe") and the footnotes associating the Hurons with the Dutch.
(That Yo-Rib is strange. Eve was from Adam's rib...hallo eve...Halloween...? Fits with October at least.)
slappybuns
thanks whiterabbit, i'm going to look up near the cn tower (for a min. or two til i get distracted, lol ) (grey giant)
it would be a giant, and there is a shadowlands island close to it and ward island (to
ward
isle of B)
and it said something about following the forest fathers (olmsted) and the moss maidens (moss park? toronto)
and i like the skydome for the bowl in the tupperwerewolves, but i'm gonna try to concentrate on all the olmsted parks around buffalo too.
up that way,
because for sure the russian image is around the battery (or long island or staten island or ...) because he says "(could it be that they believed peter minuit's glass baubles possessed the same
worth
as the alven's treasure stones?) so i'll be looking at both
that word
"worth"
is making me look at madison square some more, always liked that area with all the architecture icons
the worth monument
oh, and i'm not forgetting golf, 'cause of the dutch image (#9) and even in the tupperwerewolves, it looks like golf clubs in the mustard, or croquet mallets?
that buffalo in the russian image is so confusing if the dutch image is in or around buffalo
and was thinking that grey giant could be for the civil war/ blue and grey or giant (oak tree), or one of the heroes of the civil war?
torontogre mentions
cn tower
several times,
buffalo
, kingston,
hamilton
and owen sound, and kapital of kulture, and mentions "
one of everything
" several times
(history and geography, yuck, not my best subjects)
WhiteRabbit
I reckon the three who stand watch, and the namesakes, are the
three bares
(named after the
three bears
). I think they're here, not a million miles from the legeater.
This building is nearby.
animal painter
WhiteRabbit,
Where is that "stair-step building" located?
It looks
extremely
similar to the image!
AP
WhiteRabbit
Cheers AP - the three bares fountain (bottom right I think, not sure exactly where) is on the McGill University site, and there are several McGill buildings in the step-style in the area top left.
I'm trying to include Windsor station (15 stories), Eaton's (checkered design), Mount Stephen Club (Rue Drummond, legeater) Place Ville Marie (Calendula flower / PVM square) Ruelle Palace and University St in some kind of path based on V2, but I'm not there yet. I think I'll have to let a couple go. ;)
* * * * *
This page
talks about "The three bares outside the
Redpath Museum
" which can be seen bottom right.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
Arthur Erickson's pyramidal Man in His Community was built from hexagonal frames of Douglas fir; the German pavilion, a 15-storey, multi-peaked tent of plastic, indicated how concept and materials might radically alter the design of buildings such as auditoriums; and Buckminster Fuller's geodesic dome for the US became the prototype for a new trend in construction. The interiors of the pavilions also varied greatly. Some presented prosaic displays of consumer goods and machinery while others imaginatively depicted their history and cultural traditions. Montréal
architect
Moshe Safdie's revolutionary Habitat '67 was a graphic demonstration that by industrializing the building process, there are better and cheaper ways to house people.
(Someone suggested Habitat 67 as the blob. Don't know about that, but just noticed that Habitat 67, and a fifteen-storey plastic tent, were both part of the "Expo 67" World Fair. The first World Fair was in London's Crystal Palace. Maybe I can sacrifice Windsor Station and Ruelle Palace if I can link Expo 67 to McGill...)
(Slappy, I don't want to hear a word about the "tall-as-Jack-pine ones" or the Geodesic Gnome. Understand? ;))
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
Arthur Erickson's pyramidal Man in His Community was built from hexagonal frames of Douglas fir; the German pavilion, a 15-storey, multi-peaked tent of plastic, indicated how concept and materials might radically alter the design of buildings such as auditoriums; and Buckminster Fuller's geodesic dome for the US became the prototype for a new trend in construction. The interiors of the pavilions also varied greatly. Some presented prosaic displays of consumer goods and machinery while others imaginatively depicted their history and cultural traditions. Montréal architect Moshe Safdie's revolutionary Habitat '67 was a graphic demonstration that by industrializing the building process, there are better and cheaper ways to house people.
(Someone suggested Habitat 67 as the blob. Don't know about that, but just noticed that Habitat 67, and a fifteen-storey plastic tent, were both part of the "Expo 67" World Fair. The first World Fair was in London's Crystal Palace. Maybe I can sacrifice Windsor Station and Ruelle Palace if I can link Expo 67 to McGill...)
(Slappy, I don't want to hear a word about the "tall-as-Jack-pine ones" or the Geodesic Gnome. Understand? ;))
WhiteRabbit
I'm quite interested in
Doctor Penfield
Avenue since
Goldilocks and the three bears
was first published in a collection called "The Doctor", and Paracelsus, who seems to have invented
gnomes
, was also a doctor.
Legeater bottom right of the map, three bares / Redpath museum in the centre. If you stand top left...
...you can see this...
...or turn left and see this...
I'm a bit dubious about digging up the McGill University campus so I wondered if somewhere like this might be a better bet. I'd have thought a lamppost might be a likely landmark, given the legeater.
"...the Alven's Treasure Stone..."
"...Treasures, which were stones like glass with fire inside it..."
Like a lightbulb maybe.
WhiteRabbit
Trying to track down where this 15-storey tent was (fifteen rows down to the ground), and it seems to have been the
Ile Notre Dame
, an artificial island built for Expo 67. Wondered if this might be the hat. That would put the opal on the
Casino de Montreal
.
WhiteRabbit
...or...the adjacent
St Helen's Island
, with the Expo 67 Buckminster Fuller
biosphere
.
(The Field Guide mentions it on P158...which probably means you can rule it out. It does make quite a nice opal though. ;))
(Together, these two islands make up
Parc Jean Drapeau
which was the site of
Expo 67
.)
WhiteRabbit
OK, back to the three bares.
The building in the background is the Arts Building, so I think the statue is around here (circle):
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
It used to be called the "Friendship Fountain"
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
We previously have the quotation: "The fay's delight is to await by the fountain". The gnomes are a problem.
Brownies are gnomes. Brown building...?
Doesn't account for "admire" though.
I'm still tempted to look for anagrams in this weird phrase.
Fifteen rows down to the ground
The flower is
calendula
. Fifteen rows down on a calendar...
"gnomes admire" -> "gem roman ides".
Ides of March
, 15th March. Dunno.
WhiteRabbit
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Taking another look at the step-building, it has a wall running along it.
If you start at the left edge....
...and count down fifteen straights, you get to the right edge, by a lamppost...
(There's a break in the middle, and I'm not counting curved sections like this.)
This is along the
Avenue des Pins
.
(Hmm, wonder if I can turn my PVM square into a Pin and an XV maybe...
)
This building is the
Royal Victoria Hospital
.
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
In the middle of twenty-one
Twenty-one letters, and a Queen as well.
"Out of those canoes came the
Shining Ones
. Many of them were smaller than the Yar-Ons [Hurons], but they were very powerful.
Their medicine was so strong
that they could not be killed. They were different in appearance from the Yar-Ons as well. Some were ugly, with yellow hair"
Goldilocks. Hospitals. Lampposts.
Hospital...This opal.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The Royal Victoria Hospital owes its existence to Sir George Stephen (Lord Mount Stephen) and Donald Smith (Lord Strathcona). These two men were among the Scottish immigrants who became prosperous in Montreal. Smith made his fortune in the fur trade, railways and finance and Stephen in dry goods, flour mills, and railways. Later the two men, who were cousins, became involved in railway construction. The two wealthy citizens of Montreal, in commemoration of the golden jubilee of the Queen, jointly made a donation of one million dollars for a new hospital in Montreal, the Royal Victoria Hospital which opened in 1893. Robert Palmer Howard, Osler's mentor, was George Stephen's family physician and also a close friend of Donald Smith. (Howard's son Jared married in 1888 Smith's only child.) Robert Palmer Howard was Dean of Medicine and advised on the project until his death in 1889. The hospital was designed in the Scottish Baronial Style.
Oh, and get this...
"It was established in 1893, through the financial contributions of two Scottish immigrants, Donald Smith and
George Stephen
"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Vict ... ,_Montreal
To recap then, I'm thinking this is based around the Royal Vic and the Three Bares by the Arts Building, these being linked by Doctor Penfield Avenue.
Named after
Wilder Penfield
, described as the "greatest living Canadian" during his lifetime; a leading neuroscientist. His biography was called "Something Hidden".
I see the verse something like this.
At the place where jewels abound
Royal Victoria
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Fifteen rows down the wall from the left of the building to the right, a small green area with a lamppost beside the stepped building.
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
I suggested "Royal Victoria Hospital" has twenty-one letters. So does "Avenue Docteur Penfield":
Only three stand watch
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
The "Three Bares", or "Friendship Fountain"
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
Royal Vic
Gnomes admire
The Dutch Gnomes casque
Fays delight
To abide by a fountain
The namesakes meeting
Near this site.
The Three Bares, near the Royal Vic.
OK, it's not quite there yet...like the hospital though.
WhiteRabbit
I had a look for a "three stand watch" who were there on the scene.
This is the hospital's statue of the the Queen flanked by two children.
History of the Royal Vic
WhiteRabbit
Detail above the main entrance...
WhiteRabbit
Here's another "fifteen rows down to the ground" - the steps right by the main entrance (kerb+6+8). (I've circled the crown from the previous pic.)
Looking right...
Looking left...
Looks like an underground car park. Gnome-friendly...?
Cormac
WhiteRabbit wrote::
The Image connection, The "stairstep roof" is a good idea.
Also, from this Exact location (using google maps street view) you should look down the road and then zoom in at the top of the farthest building straight ahead......there is a dome similar to the white in the neckline under the "stairsteps"
WhiteRabbit
Rethinking I9/V2/Montreal...
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
The Royal Victorial Hospital. (Established by donations from George Stephen; the legeater is outside his home.)
"Jewel" crown motif above the main entrance...
Building design matches image...
Fifteen "rows" or steps at the entrance...
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
21st letter = U. It's on the corner of University Street.
Only three stand watch
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
You pass nearby McGill University's "Three Bares" fountain...
...as you walk down to the middle of University St ("the middle of twenty-one").
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
Here you come to the road Ruelle Palace (circled...the two corner dots mark the ends of University Street)...
...by the chequered building...
...and Place Ville Marie, aka PVM, with its cross skyscraper.
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
The namesakes meeting
Near this site
Could disappear off down some other road or two from here. I'm thinking of the "three bares" / "three bears" as the namesakes, and wondering about where bears meet. Woods...? Picnics...?
maltedfalcon
I dont think there is any doubt I9 = montreal, but personally, I am missing the v2 connection.
Chicago v2 had Where M&B are set in stone.
and
Clevleand had beneath two countries...
I'm missing the part of the verse2 that says Montreal! Start here!.
Although I see the part that says, New Orleans! Start here.
Im just not seing abounding jewels
And besides all the verse translations you are coming up with, take you away from the trees and into the city...
But if you turn around and go up the hill you are in the biggest park in Montreal, but thats just me...
maltedfalcon
I dont think there is any doubt I9 = montreal, but personally, I am missing the v2 connection.
Chicago v2 had Where M&B are set in stone.
and
Clevleand had beneath two countries...
I'm missing the part of the verse2 that says Montreal! Start here!.
Although I see the part that says,
New
Orleans
! Start here.
Im just not seing abounding jewels
And besides all the verse translations you are coming up with, take you away from the trees and into the city...
But if you turn around and go up the hill you are in the biggest park in Montreal, but thats just me...
WhiteRabbit
OK, let's head for the hills. I've noticed there's another of those stepped-roof buildings on the edge of a discreet park which is closer to the legeater, on the edge of Parc du Mont-Royal. Whatever verse people prefer, maybe they can try it here. Legeater circled right, building circled left (actually the corner of Simpson/Penfield), cross shows the park. From the legeater, you could just go Drummond -> Penfield and you're there. The building is the Trafalgar School for Girls. Like the hospital, the roof has five steps matching the collar.
Pics of the park.
North side...
East side...
South side...
WhiteRabbit
OK, let's head for the hills. I've noticed there's another of those stepped-roof buildings on the edge of a discreet park which is closer to the legeater, on the edge of Parc du Mont-Royal. Whatever verse people prefer, maybe they can try it here. Legeater circled right, building circled left (actually the corner of Simpson/Penfield), cross shows the park. From the legeater, you could just go Drummond -> Penfield and you're there. The building is the Trafalgar School for Girls. Like the hospital, the roof has five steps matching the collar.
Pics of the park.
North side...
East side...
South
side...
animal painter
WhiteRabbit,
I don't know what you do for a living,
but it should be related to detective work or searching.
You are really good at it!
AP
WhiteRabbit
Cheers AP but that would be hopeless. I'd be thinking up crackpot theories about this book when I should be working on cases.
* * * * *
You can see the sign and the roof from the same spot.
I still like V2 for this image. I tend to see this puzzle in terms of sovereigns, palaces, Kings and Queens.
The sign has eight squares per side like a chessboard. Fifteen rows down to the ground...?
That way, "In the middle of twenty one" could be "Avenue Docteur Penfield" (21 letters).
The Royal Victoria Hospital (the sovereign people) and the Three Bares (the namesakes...?) are at its north end. (The circle shows the park, dots show the two ends of Penfield. The legeater is a couple of blocks down Drummond, the street shown above Rue de la Montagne.)
erexere
This thread was fun to read through. Great work everyone! What's even more remarkable is how hard it is to choose the right verse to go with it.
WhiteRabbit
The pattern Hirudiniforme pointed out on the building next to the legeater resembles Image 7.
I've written randomly to a few people in Montreal trying to find someone interested in this puzzle.
No luck yet. I think we're alone. ;)
Hirudiniforme
you're not alone.
could "jewels" be children... at the place where jewels abound... a children's park... parc percy walters who willed the land privately to the city under the condition it be a childrens park with no structures.
the park is within 200m of center of Avenue Docteur Penfield - 21 letters
the park has 4 sets of stairs, 3 sets of 5, and one long set of 15 which leads up the back of the park and deadends into a small wall
directly at the botton of 15 stairs
is 3 lampposts, the only three in the park
verse 2?
fox
Hirudiniforme wrote::
could "jewels" be children... at the place where jewels abound... a children's park...
If that is the case....look where it brings us right back to........
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/4562331078/
shecrab
A voice in the wilderness, Fox. A voice in the wilderness.
Hirudiniforme
fox wrote::
If that is the case....look where it brings us right back to........
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/4562331078/
three stand watch... per verse 2
you might be right... image 7 is a watch (clock) standing (stuck) on three (3 o'clock)
that might be an I/V linking phrase, as opposed to a location identifier. or is it both?
Sorry, I know this isn't Image 9 related. I am still sold on 9 being Montreal and a casque that could be quite possibly/easily found (in relation to one in, say,
New
Orleans
).
Hirudiniforme
fox wrote::
If that is the case....look where it brings us right back to........
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/4562331078/
three stand watch... per verse 2
you might be right... image 7 is a watch (clock) standing (stuck) on three (3 o'clock)
that might be an I/V linking phrase, as opposed to a location identifier. or is it both?
Sorry, I know this isn't Image 9 related. I am still sold on 9 being Montreal and a casque that could be quite possibly/easily found (in relation to one in, say, New Orleans).
erexere
I'm working on a general theory (no pun intended) that one line per verse is designed to pair with a picture unrelated to that verses intended location. Of course I'm going on flimsy evidence, so its hardly worth mentioning. One such example comes from verse 3 (as paired with pic 11 for Boston) which has the word Coliseum, which could be a New Orleans hint to Coliseum Square Park where I've recently posed a theory for being that casque's location.
erexere
I'm working on a general theory (no pun intended) that one line per verse is designed to pair with a picture unrelated to that verses intended location. Of course I'm going on flimsy evidence, so its hardly worth mentioning. One such example comes from verse 3 (as paired with pic 11 for Boston) which has the word Coliseum, which could be a
New
Orleans
hint to Coliseum Square Park where I've recently posed a theory for being that casque's location.
Hirudiniforme
I agree with that statement, WR.
bigmattyh
I don't know, I'm not convinced.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
I'm working on a general theory (no pun intended) that one line per verse is designed to pair with a picture unrelated to that verses intended location. Of course I'm going on flimsy evidence, so its hardly worth mentioning. One such example comes from verse 3 (as paired with pic 11 for Boston) which has the word Coliseum, which could be a New Orleans hint to Coliseum Square Park where I've recently posed a theory for being that casque's location.
I think you are confusing things (from what I had meant, anyways).
The verse/image link would be a line in the verse which is identifiable
in the image
, not the location.
fence and fixture - in the picture (also, a location)
seek the columns - in the picture (also, a location)
land near the window - in the picture (also, a location)
coliseum would
not
be a link to image 11 because there is no coluseum in the image.
One idea I have been checking out, and related to this, is that only four images have a clock in them:
image 1 - 6 o'clock
image 2 - 4 o'clock
image 7 - 3 o'clock
image 12 - 11 o'clock
...and few verses speak of time:
verse 3 - "twelfth hour"
verse 8 - "at a distance in time"
verse 10 - "take twice as many east steps as the hour"
anymore i'm missing? i want to believe there is a connection.
shecrab
The clocks were meant to show the month of the image--the associated month. In the Chicago picture, there are five warts on the guys face which stand for May which is associated with emeralds (birth stone).
bigmattyh
shecrab wrote::
The clocks were meant to show the month of the image--the associated month. In the Chicago picture, there are five warts on the guys face which stand for May which is associated with emeralds (birth stone).
Right, but I think thrasher's raising an interesting question about associating specific content from the verses to specific visual content in the images -- more than just a general "feel" to it.
Especially "twice as many east steps as the hour." Which hour?
Hirudiniforme
bigmattyh wrote::
Right, but I think thrasher's raising an interesting question about associating specific content from the verses to specific visual content in the images -- more than just a general "feel" to it.
Especially "twice as many east steps as the hour." Which hour?
Bingo. On both counts.
It would make sense that
at least one
verse mentioning time would fit with an image with a clock.
erexere
Yeah 420, I did misunderstand. I'm pretty burnt out for the time being. A good time for a break.
shecrab
Unknown:
It would make sense that at least one verse mentioning time would fit with an image with a clock.
But there is an image: 12. The square clock says very directly,
Times Square.
IOW, New York City. However, 'three stand WATCH' doesn't seem to fit with THREE WATCHES to me.
Standing
watch, and
a watch
are very different things. And nothing in the verses seems to point to any indication that timepieces themselves may be a confirmer for an outdoor location, except perhaps in the shape of something--as the Image 7 clock may do.
The phrase twice as many east steps as the hour is indeed a puzzle. They could mean the hour in the image--that is the most likely candidate for "what hour." And that would be whatever image actually goes with this verse, which has not yet been determined. The good thing about that is that there are only 10 probable verses, not 12--since two of the casques have been recovered. You might also eliminate Verse 9 if you believe that the casque is in FOY park. And you might also eliminate Verse 1 for its obvious and nearly ineluctable association with Image 8, Houston's Children's Zoo. So that leaves V. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10, and probably verse 8 is Milwaukee (if not in Lake Park, then somewhere close,) which leaves only 6 verses to ponder. What it doesn't mean, IMHO, is that there is somehwere a clock nearby in the location. The reason for this is that any clock near the casque would have to be stopped and permanently fixed on SOME hour when and since the casque was buried, and the likelihood of that being the case is just miniscule; otherwise, as with most clocks, the hour will be different, every, well,
hour
. That doesn't make sense as a marker for a location, does it?
Hirudiniforme
Unknown:
It would make sense that at least one verse mentioning time would fit with an image with a clock.
Unknown:
But there is an image: 12. The square clock says very directly,
Times Square.
IOW, New York City.
Unknown:
However, 'three stand WATCH' doesn't seem to fit with THREE WATCHES to me.
Standing
watch, and
a watch
are very different things.
Unknown:
And nothing in the verses seems to point to any indication that timepieces themselves may be a confirmer for an outdoor location, except perhaps in the shape of something--as the Image 7 clock may do.
Unknown:
The phrase twice as many east steps as the hour is indeed a puzzle. They could mean the hour in the image--that is the most likely candidate for "what hour."
Unknown:
The good thing about that is that there are only 10 probable verses, not 12--since two of the casques have been recovered.
Unknown:
What it doesn't mean, IMHO, is that there is somehwere a clock nearby in the location. The reason for this is that any clock near the casque would have to be stopped and permanently fixed on SOME hour when and since the casque was buried, and the likelihood of that being the case is just miniscule; otherwise, as with most clocks, the hour will be different, every, well,
hour
. That doesn't make sense as a marker for a location, does it?
I did say this.
Sure, but this does not link any verse to an image, which is what is important. BTW, the clock says nothing DIRECTLY, you are speculating.
I agree. Just trying to play with wording. I'll stop posting if you'd like.
Again, agreed.
Yes! This is what I have been getting at.
Way less than that. As I had pointed out, only 3-4 verses actually reference time. Why not focus on these?
For lack of any better response, Duh. Did anything I've mentioned indicate that I thought clocks or watches would be found in the area?
What I have been trying to point out, is that there is VERY few commonalities CONSISTANT among the solves - and by solves, I mean casque-in-hand.
1. A verse which contains a line CLEARLY linking to the image.
2. Lat/long coordinates (I cannot deny the Mill Walk Key "solve"' though, which may eliminate this commonality).
3. A very distinct representation in the image of an object VERY close to the casque.
4. Abstract images (buildings, etc.) which are in the vacinity of the location.
possible 5. An outline of the state the casque is in (which I don't think will remain constant).
possible 6. The culture represented in the image is distinctively related to the location.
possible 7. An Olmstead park is located nearby the casque's location.
These are the only clues I think we can really go by. I am not saying that these clues will remain consistant, but they are the only ones that have so far.
While I do recognize the month/culture/birthstone connections, only the culture has been involved in the solve. Very sketchilly at that.
What I am tired of doing (I am sure the verterans like yourself are, too), is saying, "maybe this verse, maybe that verse." Very few of the locations, I believe, can still be uncovered because of time/disasters/changes/etc. So, I am trying to narrow my search to the ones that are very plausible (Boston, Montreal, San Francisco), or determine a verse's line which DIRECTLY mentions something in the image, a concrete link that the solves had.
It gets to be very frusterating that we cannot just go dig at will. I can see this coming out in your last few posts (as well as in my own, and I'm only a year deep).
shecrab
Unknown:
Quote
I agree. Just trying to play with wording. I'll stop posting if you'd like.
Unknown:
For lack of any better response, Duh. Did anything I've mentioned indicate that I thought clocks or watches would be found in the area?
Oh don't be silly.
Quote
There's no need for that attitude. I'm only doing what you're doing: speculating. If you weren't looking for a clock then why are you trying to focus on time? To what purpose?
erexere
My impression of the 9th image is "Mr. Furley goes to India." All this talk of razor's has me thinking of WS Maugham's The Razor's Edge. Notice the opal-third-eye and the funny/depressed quirk in the facial expression. It's meditative and Hessian like Magister Ludi and the Glass Bead Game. The narrowness of the eyes has me thinking about parallax or tunnel vision. Are there any tunnels in Montreal with nearby parks?
fox
Hirudiniforme wrote::
One idea I have been checking out, and related to this, is that only four images have a clock in them:
image 1 - 6 o'clock
image 2 - 4 o'clock
image 7 - 3 o'clock
image 12 - 11 o'clock
...and few verses speak of time:
verse 3 - "twelfth hour"
verse 8 - "at a distance in time"
verse 10 - "take twice as many east steps as the hour"
anymore i'm missing? i want to believe there is a connection.
I actually think this is pretty intersting. I have always thought that there had to be something more than just verifying a birth month with these numbers. The one Major flaw I see in your theory is this: look at your verse 3 - "twelfth hour". Unfortunately, none of the 4 clocks say 12 o'clock.
shecrab
It is an interesting way to look at it, however, as I have said, I don't think these puzzles are all that complex, nor do I believe that they have this particular angle. The clocks were/are merely an interesting way to associate a number with a month. Beyond that, they seem to have no use at all. There were none in either of the solutions already revealed--Cleveland and Chicago.
There ARE ways of depicting numbers in every image. But numbers don't have to be the clocks. I think it's the other way 'round...the clocks are merely another way of depicting number, just like counting similar objects--warts, asters, balls, etc. are.
digger7
fox wrote::
The one Major flaw I see in your theory is this: look at your verse 3 - "twelfth hour". Unfortunately, none of the 4 clocks say 12 o'clock.
I've always thought that the clock in image 7 was depicting 12:00 o'clock not 3:00 o'clock. Both hands are pointing to 12 (one behind the other) so it only looks like there is one when there could be two. While the thing pointing to the 3 is the second hand.
Just a thought.
erexere
You are saying the hand pointing to 3 is the "seconds" hand, right? I also believe the minutes and hour hands are at the 12 position. In a map overlay, I think the seconds hand tip matches the original 1981 site of the Joan of Arc statue between the Rivergate Casino and the Trade Tower. Sorry to post in this thread, this response is to the clock in P7. I just took a moment to verify and it checks out if you relate the seconds hand to a north pointing direction that follows first going across (east) from the Margaret "Bread Lady" statue.
shecrab
Or you could
simply
say that the hands point to 12 AND 3. ALL of them.
digger7
I'm saying that the clock has 3 hands.
The hand that points to the hours is pointing at 12.
The hand that points to the minutes is also pointing at 12.
The hand that points to the seconds is pointing at 3.
digger7
Hirudiniforme wrote::
One idea I have been checking out, and related to this, is that only four images have a clock in them:
image 1 - 6 o'clock
image 2 - 4 o'clock
image 7 - 3 o'clock
image 12 - 11 o'clock
image 3 also has a clock.
forest_blight
P7 is certainly the 12:00 (December) image, due to the simple fact that the other eleven times/months have been accounted for. Any ambiguity is resolved by this fact.
And, because this is the P9 thread, I'll simply repeat that P9 is the 10:00 (October) image, due to the big Roman X on our guy's robe.
forest_blight
Driving through St. Louis the other day I was sucked into the gravitational pull of Forest Park. I stopped to take a few pictures of the area around the Jewel Box and the Vandeventer gate. Sadly I did not have much time.
shecrab
Nice photos FB!! That fountain--if it had water flowing from it, it would look an awful lot like that "blob" beneath the legeater! And the bench behind the sundial looks like the formation just in front of the blob.
erexere
I'm interested in the current state of opinion on image 9. There seems to be strong points to both views leading to either St. Louis or Montreal. I see what you're saying about relating the leg eater to the St. Louis park construct. I can almost see a decapitation motif...and amputation of the legs when I bring into consideration Saint Denis (discussed below).
I might have it wrong here, but i thought Trohn refered to this as the "jockey". I was liking this as a possibility when i came across a steeplechase reference to a jockey named Bill Scott who had a horse named Don John in 1838. This idea doesnt go anywhere for me but i thought id share anyway.
Something i liked about this is the football shape of the head and the idea that Preiss is going for a referfence to Saint Denis the decapitated bishop whoms statue holds his head almost like an American football. The patern on the statues collar matches a gridlike checkerboard pattern. (edit: corrected St. Daniel to St. Denis).
I googled football hold images and it took me a minute to figure out why there were so many breastfeeding baby images...so that's not what I had in mind, but this image will suffice.
Another musing lead me to consider St. Leger (leg eater?). Ill have to come back to that later since i cant recall where i came across that...maybe something related to steeples oe steeplechase horse racing.
For a moment i considered that this was an "Opal bearer" or "O Pallbearer" and then im stuck to wonder whose funeral might be associated here...another dead end, eh?
A final consideration and one that gets back to Montreal, Quebec, or possibly Philidelphia...is the Jazz label 'Steeplechase', which in 1975 hosted a Stan Getz recording in Montmartre...but that is France. I liked the bearing the idea has on many famous paint artists who operated in that area. Does 'Hill' and 'Martyr' have any potential?
(Edit: adding in something really interesting)
I noticed the origin of the photo of St. Denis' statue is Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral. The cathedral that was demolished in order to build the new one was called St. Stephens. Notre Dame is a great football team. And isnt the name of the home owner where the legeater is found also a Stephen?
WhiteRabbit
Good pics FB. (Still find it hard to drag myself away from that Montreal legeater though.)
erexere
Was FB the original discoverer of the leg eater? I'd like to know more about the process that led to the discovery. In other words, what idea prompted the search for that lamp in the first place?
The flow of ideas for me is: steeple, leg, bishop (but as a chess thought based on checkerboard and the italian fianchetto motif), jazz (horn- finger positions similar to trumpet, the music note in flower, and the beat-nik hat), football (shape of head).
Still, i have not settled on any particular verse or location. The St. Stephens church reference is a buried idea, since it no longer exists. How accessible would that historical knowledge be 30 years ago?
forest_blight
Nope, I'm afraid I can take credit for very little in this hunt, aside from shooting down other people's ideas.
Go back to August 11, 2006 on this thread. ravel07 found it, and the rest of us celebrated.
erexere
Ok. I've been through this thread three times now. I core dump every time, so i will likely ask again for the same info. Dame thread is getting cosmic in size.
So, was up way too late looking into all things Notre Dame related. Decided the best fit is found in verse 2. Things i like about it: 'sovereign' works well with 'basilica' and 'king of kings' the competting 'touchdown jesus' in Ohio vs the 'word of life' mural version of 'touchdown jesus' in Notre Dame, Basileus Basileon. Gnomes, touchdown? Knute Rockne sounds very gnommish for a name...was he a Knome??! Is NOtre daME a "gnome"??
I like the end to end, middle of 21 as a football field reference, but im more interested in finding a plot of 21 trees. Too bad the Clark Memorial Fountain in the middle of a 21 tree plot wasnt built til 86.
The blob to the right of the legeater looks more and more like an homage to the Grotto in Lourdes. The small block between the "feet" looks like a good match with the altar. The arch has a small line n the middle possibly representing Our Lady. The hands together forming the steeple gesture are also similar to Our Lady's hands in upright prayer position.
Three stand watch....could be a lot o things. 15 rows to the ground and the legeater have me thinking there is a stair and a lamp post and a view of the basilica...
erexere
Just checking info. Touchdown Jesus in Notre Dame was installed in 1964. Ohio's was 2004.
WhiteRabbit
Image 9 / Verse 6 / Montreal brainstorming
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
The original has:
If sailor tales to sailor tunes,
Storm and adventure, heat and cold,
If schooners, islands, and maroons,
And buccaneers, and buried gold,
And all the old romance, retold
Exactly in the ancient way,
Can please, as me they pleased of old
The wiser youngsters of today:
So be it, and fall on! If not,
If studious youth no longer crave,
His ancient appetites forgot,
Kingston, or Ballantyne the brave
Ballantyne the brave, or “bold”, was RM Ballantyne:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._M._Ballantyne
“At the age of 16 he went to Canada and was six years in the service of the Hudson's Bay Company. He returned to Scotland in 1847, and published his first book the following year, Hudson's Bay: or, Life in the Wilds of North America”
In Montreal, the Hudson’s Bay Company, or “The Bay”, is the building near the chequered design.
Stand and listen to the birds
Hear the cool, clear song of water
If this is referring to an actual song, it might be “Cool cool water” by the Beach Boys (“Have some cool clear water”) “Cool water” by Marty Robbins (“Cool, clear, water”), “The Tide River” by Charles Kingsley (“Clear and cool, clear and cool”) or something else.
Harken to the words:
Freedom at the birth of a century
Or May 1913
“La Liberte” was a newspaper which began in May 1913 in Winnepeg.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Libert%C3%A9_(Canada
)
The founder, an archbishop, died in Montreal.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A9lard_Langevin
Apart from Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, another local possibility might be Claude Jodoin, born in May 1913 in Westmount Montreal.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Jodoin
Edwin and Edwina named after him
Edwin At-water (can't post this name properly here or it replaces it with "pregnant fisher" to avoid the expletive!) was a notable Montrealer with an avenue named after him, as well as a market and metro station. (In 1861 he served as the president of the Montreal Board of Trade. A different RM Ballantyne, also a notable Montrealer, later served as its vice-president.)
If you proceed down Sainte-Catherine from The Bay, you pass Drummond (legeater) and then At-water Avenue. Lincoln Avenue runs parallel to Sainte Catherine and crosses At-water a couple of blocks further along.
(Edwina -> Edwin A…? Possible tie-in with “song of water”.)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand
Fair…Montreal World Fair…?
“The dominant Fair of this era arguably is Montreal's Expo '67. It was also during Expo '67 that organizers started calling World's Fairs "Expos" (Montreal's Major League Baseball team, which played from 1969 until it moved to Washington, D.C. in December 2004, was named the Expos, in honor of the 1967 fair.)”
maltedfalcon
Actually the World's Columbian Exposition of 1893 was also called and expo but was more commonly called the Chicago World's Fair.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
Mr. Walters comes from a family long associated with the tobacco trade in England, his father being one of the first directors of the Imperial Tobacco Company of Great Britain. After many years in the trade in England, Mr. Walters pioneered for the company in Egypt and India, finally coming to Canada where he took up residence in 1910. He was vice-president of the Imperial Tobacco Company of Canada for many years.
...just been revisiting Percy Walters Park near the dogleg where you can see these...
He was a tobacco baron...
(Tobacco references in intro...?)
Re: V2 and the sovereign people who shelter their heads for a night, one of Victoria's sons, Albert Edward Prince of Wales, stayed there.
hxxp://coolopolis.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... llren.html
erexere
Has anyone figured out Blob?
I Think I saw it earlier, but I cat remember which building I was looking at. It was a clover behind a shape, I wasn't looking specifically for the blob, so it's just a ghost version in my recall. Tired now, so I'll have another go at retracing my steps tomorrow. Or maybe someone already knows. hmm...not on Drummond.
maltedfalcon
my personal take is it is the walls and steps and planters behind the legeater.
it also could be the modular housing experiment that was installed for expo67
There was a fountain in St Louis that was a good match...
or it could be something not yet found or no longer existing
erexere
Research about the history of the Montreal Chess Club is inconclusive. Any significant history could only point to Chessmaster Henry Bird who visited there for a simul exhibition...but it really doesnt land on any specific location. Bust on that idea i guess.
The St. Denis idea has more promise, it points to three things, the Notre Dame Church, the street name, and a music hall/theater.
Has anyone come across a building named 'FAIRYLAND'? Not much is known about it...all i could glean is it was a theater in 1908.
The facade of the Corona Theater has little block features shaped like a + sign, similar to the pixel block shape next to the dog legeater. The window work above is shaped like the [X] box symbol above the eater.
I wonder if the legeater / drummond is possibly a 'drumstick' reference. Synthesis gives us a 'bird' reference. Ack, i thought i was done with the chess idea... If Bird is even remotely the gist of this puzzle, all I could see as useful is the fact that the Bird's Opening is f4 or Pawn to King's Bishop four...wow, there's a wacky way to get 'bishop' out of this. The notion is supported by the diagonal motif. What if we are in a strictly diagonal or stair'step route for a long on foot walk that will literally eat your legs...like a nice 2 miler uphill...anyone familiar with Montreal enough to see where to go from here?
erexere
This looks like a very good start. Use verse 10. The grey giant is possibly the tower structure of Olympic Stadium or even better the Expo 67 art construct Le Phare Du Cosmos, St. Helen's Island next to Isle Notre Dame and south of Isle des Boucherville (Isle of B.)
Notice how the sculpture's eyes are close together.
forest_blight
This would be a great idea if the sculpture were not at the southern tip of the island, and in any case around a bend in the river from the Isle of B. Is there a way to use the verse to find one's way from the sculpture to the northern tip of the island?
erexere
forest_blight wrote::
This would be a great idea if the sculpture were not at the southern tip of the island, and in any case around a bend in the river from the Isle of B. Is there a way to use the verse to find one's way from the sculpture to the northern tip of the island?
Yeah, the sculpture isn't as optimally south of Isle of B. The line in verse 10 about going 'EAST twice as many steps as the hour' might do improve that perspective. Very little imagery is available online at that point. Much verse is left to be unwound upon this prospective landscape. I think it's going to need a person on foot willing to take the slender path, if this is where it is to be found...in Summer.
erexere
I think Egbert and Johann were on to something. There is a strong resemblance to Shylock and Egbert nailed the Harding reference in Vancouver.
More soon, just finished searching the forums and nobody has yet developed on those ideas. I came at it from a Puck angle. I noticed several mentions of a stone the blue color of midsummer...a clue from the books text to look to Shakespeare? Also, Palencar hinting about elves being deceiving is a loud hint.
I've edited to show what it looks like when you put the heads and hands of the two statues together
The Robin Goodfellow / Leg eater comparison
erexere
I know how people are gonna dislike this mashup, but I couldn't resist, the overhead view of the Harding memorial is definitely an element to be found in the blob...all I did is a little shuffling, like flip the bath, dragged the front facing image beneath the overhead and threw one of the side blocks with beast on the side. And then I went crazy with the black spray can tool...and frankenblob is reborn.
Now on to the verse: using v10 has to be the way to go. Maybe there is a way to tie in the Theater just to the south, it's called the Theater Under the Stars and it customarily hosts two plays in Summer. I see the theater has a nice V shape from overhead.
maltedfalcon
the legeater in montreal is an exact match
unless you got an exact match I think you are wasting your time.
erexere
I recognize the exact matchery in the leg eater, but the problem I have is that my interpretation is more a priori, stemming from the idea that the horned beast lunching on a leg comes from something archetypal which the maker of the lamp would've used in the lamps creation.
Pan, Faun, Satyr are all good prospects...perhaps even Prospero's Caliban. I say Puck only because of the way it riddles its way into the hockey idea of the Stanley Cup. It's late, and I've been staring at a map for a little while longer than usual and maybe I'm seeing something, maybe not...30 years, can do funny things to places... Here's no change of orientation or skewing involved, as is, with a few simple highlights in red:
fox
I don't see the relevence at all here. Sure, the red lines kind of line up but I think that could be done with about any city, town, village, etc.... Your long, curving line really matches up with nothing on the map. Now if it followed a shoreline exactly....maybe. Some of your theories (in my opinion) are quite farfetched. Random lines on maps, golf balls, boulders in small OR townships.....
It, at times, almost sounds like you are trying to steer us away from pretty darn solid ideas.
erexere
I can't find any rebuttal or development on Egbert's or Johann's ideas in the forums for this Harding reference, so I thought I'd take a look and see what I could find based on maltedfalcon's views (see Picture Path thread).
Here I started with the Harding memorial, but other than the hacked-blob it didn't seem like an iconic image. Looking for an iconic image I found Mitchell Island fits the hat outline to a fair degree when flipped upside down (not mirrored, just turned). The business with the funky ragged curves on the top right part of the hat weren't characteristic of Mitchell Island, but I found a beach along the path in the direction of Stanley Park where the Harding memorial is located that did fit in a rough way. My eye can't account for erosion but that is typical with coastlines and so let's give it a good hard look. I'm not sure, but maybe that's the way the Picture Path is intended to work. malted?
To be perfectly clear, only upside down 180 degree rotation is used here. (The Terminal Tower in image 4 also used this idea)
Note: interesting to see the name Mitchell...
The path takes us right on up into Stanley Park and the casque just might be near the totem poles just past the Harding monument and Theater. Rhapsodic man's soil: Lord Stanley threw his arms to the heavens, as though embracing within them the whole of one thousand acres of primeval forest, and dedicated it 'to the use and enjoyment of peoples of all colours, creeds, and customs, for all time. I name thee, Stanley Park.'
erexere
fox wrote::
I don't see the relevence at all here. Sure, the red lines kind of line up but I think that could be done with about any city, town, village, etc.... Your long, curving line really matches up with nothing on the map. Now if it followed a shoreline exactly....maybe. Some of your theories (in my opinion) are quite farfetched. Random lines on maps, golf balls, boulders in small OR townships.....
It, at times, almost sounds like you are trying to steer us away from pretty darn solid ideas.
I donno fox, you sure seem harsh. Why try to misrepresent the situation? Corbett is small, yet it's on the Columbia River. Do you think the Columbia River is too insignificant to this hunt? There is a golf course adjacent to the Palace of the Legion of Honor...I'm sorry I can't understand why you think golf balls can't be represented as large white orbs in an artistic rendering. Sam Hill's monument might seem insignificant to you, but Alma Spreckles seemed to feel it was important to spend her money on the final 9 years needed to complete the Maryhill Museum and Stonehenge Monument. What's so wrong with having a go at understanding our nation's history and what are these solid ideas that you speak of? The "random line" is only meant to guide the eye, not meant to misrepresent anything. The artist has done his own work to "steer" us from seeing what's really there. I'm simply and altruistically attempting to add ideas to the mix.
btw, the latitude of Stanley Park is 49 and what looks like a "73" in the hair could be a "23". Stanley Park is longitude 123.
maltedfalcon
actually that looks just like the montreal 67 expologo to me
fox
My apologies if I sounded harsh ex....what I'm trying to say is the things we have found in the pics have been pretty much exact (ie the dogleg in this pic). I have always thought his collar is just a little off and wont be suprised if we find an exact match of a river, shoreline, park outline etc there. Again, please forgive me for offending....was not my intention.
maltedfalcon
another thing you might have got out of the book
is in the litany of the jewels. The majority of the fay came from the east.
only one came from the west. (china)
it kind of indicates, the strong possibility there is only one "west coast" casque...
and I realize the boards are quite long at this point. Yet that is how we got here to this level of understanding. and you will find a bunch of people who have been here for the long haul are still around who have read them and remember writing most of them.
There were tons of posts, back and forth about legeater exact match vs legeater possibles and after much angst and gnashing of teeth the consensus pretty much came up without another exact match. you can't get away from Legeater = montreal.
you also must remember we know for a fact there is one canadian casque, so if you are going to suggest it is not that image, which is it going to be.
If it is not montreal - the next best match is st louis - and its a really good match. so if you are going to suggest an alternative, It needs to be spot on, not just a how about or this is generally similar or If we bend over backwards we can think about it like this....
In the two found casques, there were ZERO Allusions, a total of no word plays- and zip allegories. So if there are some in the remaining casques I will go out on a limb and predict they might be there but arent necessary to solve the puzzles.
erexere
Well, again im not aware of ALL te information and not ALL of what is on these boards has sunk in even after two reads of some of it. All those solid ideas may still have their weaknesses and i intend to be the atypical skeptic if it has any chance of casque discovery.
Thanks or putting up with me and speaking your minds. This great unknown has many dividing assumptions imho.
shecrab
maltedfalcon wrote::
actually that looks just like the montreal 67 expologo to me
Unknown:
In the two found casques, there were ZERO Allusions, a total of no word plays- and zip allegories. So if there are some in the remaining casques I will go out on a limb and predict they might be there but arent necessary to solve the puzzles.
And to me as well.
I agree again. I think that you go WAAAY overboard in trying to fit in your theories with parts of the images and verses.
These puzzles are NOT that complex. Nor are they all in Oregon.
erexere
The verse has allusions. When you seek the sounds of rumble / Brush and music / Hush, you're having to connect those to something specific such as the train tracks and the art school. If you dispense with all allusury style you'll have problems.
The truncations will require some work. (as in the one letter abbreviations). How does arguement to narrow or restrict the application of alternate methods help unless you know for a fact that ALL the solutions use ONLY the same methods applied to the first two found casques? It doesn't help and even being right about one thing doesn't make you right about everything. It's embarrassing to witness such lobbying.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
actually that looks just like the montreal 67 expologo to me
"that"? Mitchell Island or the hat?
erexere
shecrab wrote::
Nor are they all in Oregon.
You think I or someone else is saying that?
maltedfalcon
the 67 you are reading it as 47,46 or 49
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
You think I or someone else is saying that?
No she was just joking nobody thinks that,
however Verse 7, Image 1, Image 6, Verse 5, verse 9, Image 9 ...
erexere
Yeah, the flower and 67 are totally worth considering. I've worked hours on a Montreal solution but that's meaningless if I even for a moment come at it with a "fit my theory" approach that demands anything beyond a degree of liberty. In other words, if it isn't an exact match, forget about it.
The problem with anyone showing distress over my ideas is that they haven't addressed in the slightest the underpinnings of any historical or artistic context with regard to archetype. If they have, I have missed the conversation among the distractions.
Let me stress the idea again, it's not so much a theory of mine in the least, whether people who write stories or draw pictures, there's evidence that ideas are shared or stem from some origin. If I were to make up a super hero whose only weakness was a strange green glowing rock, I might claim it was an original idea but most people would say "yo, you're ripping off Superman, not cool.". In my image above I address briefly the comparison of the leg eater to an image from a Shakespeare reference to Puck that existed previous to the lamp in Montreal. How do we know the lamp crafter didnt draw from the same inspiration as Palencar? I dont know that answer, which is why I share this viewpoint and hope it can be constructive to others. If you wish to consider this a far fetched idea, go right ahead, I have a great comic book to sell you...
shecrab
Unknown:
So, what makes Grant or Cleveland (the person) less obscure than Lord Stanley or Florence Nightengale? Is Shakespeare on the List?
Sorry Catherwood...I have to reply to this, then I will allow this thread to return to it's origins.
Nothing makes them "more" obscure per se--however, when you count 12 of something, 2 of something is not a trend or pattern. You need a couple more to make that viable.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
So, what makes Grant or Cleveland (the person) less obscure than Lord Stanley or Florence Nightengale? Is Shakespeare on the List?
You didn't have to know anything about Ulysses S. Grant or Grover Cleveland to find the casque. Grant Park could have been named Oogiboogie Park and the Land of Cleve could have been named Phineas-Wallbangertown, and it wouldn't have affected the image or verse, or the solution.
Same can't be said for, say, the Houston solution -- because there's a Herman Melville reference in the verse, and the casque is/was in Hermann Park. (I know, not the same spelling, but no, it didn't matter.)
erexere
It's all the same to me since I don't have a strong background in history. Im in no way suggesting knowledge of these folks is important to locating a casque. The attempt to reveal an underlying theme to it all is a side-approach. Whatever you really need to know to complete the final steps is (was) bound to be available on site.
The coolest thing about some of the theories others have discussed indicates that there are signs, plaques, pedestal maps, and statues at the sites that have these obscure details. It's hilarious that when someone spouts a claim that the FOY or Roanoke have these indicators then it's a "solid" theory worth discussing but when I share the same proofs, a plaque, a pedestal map, a tourist pamphlet quote, things that are easily discoverable at the site then you decide the obscurity of the knowledge is so important in deciding which view deserves focus.
These details are becoming more important in my view as we continue to pry at the majority of the remaining casques. I read the speech and dedication on the Harding memorial (lucky to find a picture with good enough resolution) and it seems to resonate with the verse. It says it's engraved in granite by Kiwanis. I'm not convinced of anything absolute, but I can't deny granite is one of the most "hard" substances and Kiwanis is a Native Indian reference. After reading this, you can turn to your right and see a giant grey amphitheater structure (only its been refurbished since and has a big green semicircular face and front door). A picture from the area shows some seating areas under a small area that uses large checkerboard tiles similar to image 9's hat or robe. Across the path to the east are some Native Indian totem poles. Lots still to be worked out here, just getting started since finding relatable considerations: hard words, natives speaking, native signs at a path, black/ivory checkered tile, large grey outdoor theater.
Check this link, scroll down till you see the giant checkerboards,
hxxp://www.leespage.ca/h/ar/art.html
Afterthought. I'm really not interested in having a beef or injecting petty rhetorical tones in the discussion. Clearly there is nothing wrong with making statements or claims. We can argue anything we want and it helps to make a position or basis known. Is the obscurity of a reference something that just applies when I'm hanging a theory in these forums or is there some deeper awareness or level of certainty that condemns or dismisses my ideas? My guess is it's to do with my being a newer presence here and for lack of reading the book. I'm doing my best to internalize past explorations described in the forums, and I don't intend to read the book unless someone proves they are required (were they necessary to find Grant Park or Cleveland? Is that where you are coming from, BigMatty?), though I am purchasing the book for other clarifications.
erexere
Could it possibly be that the man's hands overlapping fingers gesturing upward is analogous to a clock's hands, when both together pointing up indicates "12"?
This could be what works with verse 10 "twice as many east steps as the hour," for 24 steps.
In that article I cited by Lee A. Wood, there's some great stuff about the Pipe company donating a set of pipe cut galvanized wire wrapped checkers pieces that you can ask the park to use (they are kept in a locked closet and nobody has asked to use them for almost 30 years). I like the parallel that checkers are just like hockey pucks. Now I'm looking at a trifecta of ideas: Shakespear's Puck character, Stanley Cup's hockey puck, and the puck as a giant draught piece.
fox
erexere wrote::
Is the obscurity of a reference something that just applies when I'm hanging a theory in these forums or is there some deeper awareness or level of certainty that condemns or dismisses my ideas? My guess is it's to do with my being a newer presence here and for lack of reading the book.
erexere wrote::
I read the speech and dedication on the Harding memorial (lucky to find a picture with good enough resolution) and it seems to resonate with the verse. It says it's engraved in granite by Kiwanis. I'm not convinced of anything absolute, but I can't deny granite is one of the most "hard" substances and Kiwanis is a Native Indian reference. After reading this, you can turn to your right and see a giant grey amphitheater structure (only its been refurbished since and has a big green semicircular face and front door). A picture from the area shows some seating areas under a small area that uses large checkerboard tiles similar to image 9's hat or robe. Across the path to the east are some Native Indian totem poles. Lots still to be worked out here, just getting started since finding relatable considerations: hard words, natives speaking, native signs at a path, black/ivory checkered tile, large grey outdoor theater.
That has nothing to do with it.
Something like that is quite interesting. I thiink, may be wrong, that most of the things people are disagreeing with you in the past are your ideas with ONE possibly tangible idea. Many of these single ideas of yours just happen to be going against very SOLID theories with MANYconfirmers present. Another thing that many may disagree with is how you just keep bouncing around and adding idea upon unrelated idea upon unrelated idea whenever you find something else. This tends to make me believe you are just forcing a fit. Almost like....ok, you dont like my theory on such and such place....well how about when I add this to the mix? No? I just happened to find this that kind of ties in with my location also but has nothing to do with any other confirmers or the verse itself.
The 2 found casques werent really that difficult. The trees in the Cleveland image werent important. We didnt have to know the specific type or that once every 3rd Friday of a month only with even number of letters that every 23rd leaf of each branch inverted itself to catch more moonlight. We didnt have to count the number of windows in the Chicago image nor did we have to know that those windows were made by Munster Joinery (which happens to be an Irish company & Chicago is known for it's Irish parties. Also, Munster could be referring to muenster cheese and there happens to be3 a cheese shop just across the railroad tracks from the casque's location.
Let's get back to the basics folks
erexere
I am jumping around, but not fruitlessly as you think. What significance Priess saw in his own designs is really with him, and though he may not have made the counting of windows important, he might have seen an importance in selecting a specific architectural character to fit his ideas. You are certainly criticizing my process, but you seem like you are mocking or presuming to know BP's process. I, however do not know what he did to construct all of the pieces to the puzzle, but I endeavor to learn, thank you.
fox
In a nutshell...
1. He found a place he would like to hide a casque
2. He photographed things "around" said location
3. He gave these photos to JJP who in turn (with NO knowledge of where these pics were OR what the verses said) painted the images
4. He came up with the verses.
erexere
Understood, but he had a brain too.
fox
I concur....but he DIDNT bring along the Northeastern Chapter of MENSA along with a handful of rocket scientists and Albert Einstien's ghost. These are simple riddles with very little wordplay...meaning, basic wordplay, not no wordplay. He didnt research these areas for months (remember, no internet for poor BP back then) upon months before hiding them.
erexere
I like the way you put that. He was just a smart guy all on his own and I'm taking flak for referencing obscure things and others who refer to old works not so much. I'll have to go back through to posts to find the references, but I'm certain there's lots of enthusiastic investigation that has a lot more wonkiness than my stuff.
'The ties that bind'are words on the Harding granite memorial..made me think of BP's choice in words with a different verse 'bar that binds'.
shecrab
Unknown:
but he DIDNT bring along the Northeastern Chapter of MENSA along with a handful of rocket scientists and Albert Einstien's ghost
ROFL Fox...
And just for the record, I
am
a member of Mensa and I can tell you for a fact that if he
had
brought them along, there would have been absolutely no agreement on where to bury the casques.
fox
erexere wrote::
'The ties that bind'are words on the Harding granite memorial..made me think of BP's choice in words with a different verse 'bar that binds'.
That is interesting....but...here I go again.... If it werent for one verse "Hard Words" possibly leading to a Harding memorial (which I think is a great idea), you wouldnt have seen "Ties that bind" on said memorial which is from a DIFFERENT verse. Now we are merging verses? Dont think we can have that. If one verse mentioned both "Hard words" AND "bar that binds" then I would say you are DEFINITELY onto something.
It is, and has been for quite some time, this hunt that leads me to
, not you.
erexere
No, I'm not merging verses for the purpose of discovery. As far as application goes, I'm strictly consigned to the method Maltedfalcon proposed: image reveals path and treasure ground, verse reveals casque within treasure ground.
My quizzical nature causes me to wonder if "[bar] that binds" was a choice of words based on BP's experience with Harding's "[tie] that binds". An innocent question, nothing earthshaking or needing quasi-Mensa-relativistic bombardment.
I personally dont go around dropping phrases from old hymns or Keats quotes. That's why the phrase caught my attention. I'm putting out here to elicit further understanding if others are here to assist. If its absolutely clear and certain and deserves no further consideration, then let's move on.
erexere
Ive been rethinkin an thinkin some more on the Leg Eater. My current theory of Stanley Park uses the Shakespear/hockey interpretation which reasonably predates the creation of George Stephen's lamp. The lamp however is an exact match and so it remains to be considered why/how is it being used? The Shakespear is really a folklore connection. I believe there are two sides to this and a double meaning on one side. The "puck" side is both a horned/hoofed mythological figure and the playing piece in hockey. The other side of the coin is George Stephen in Montreal. I believe the connection is to the CP railway, which George Stephen spent much of his life's focus. Stanley Park built a miniature railway in honor of the CPR in 1964. Perhaps BP discovered this fabulous George Stephen connection when looking for someway to tie the railroad element into Stanley Park.
erexere
erexere wrote::
Ive been rethinkin an thinkin some more on the Leg Eater.
George Stephen partnered with Donald Smith, James Jerome Hill, and Norman Kittson to purchase the near-bankrupt St. Paul and Pacific Railroad in Minnesota in the United States. They turned the business around, restoring profitability and expanding its lines. Renamed the St. Paul, Minneapolis and Manitoba Railway, Stephen and his partners then sold it out for an enormous profit. So successful were he and his partnership that they won a contract with the Government of Canada to build the
Canadian Pacific Railway
.
the leg eater is a great confirmer...for a leg. It helps us connect the railroad in a very playful game of PAC-Man in search of hockey pucks.
erexere
fox wrote::
In a nutshell...
1. He found a place he would like to hide a casque
2. He photographed things "around" said location
3. He gave these photos to JJP who in turn (with NO knowledge of where these pics were OR what the verses said) painted the images
4. He came up with the verses.
I think the first thing BP did was to research the history of nutshells and sketch a few ideas...when he realized that was no fun and his stick figure art sucked, he then bought a camera and hired an artist.
He certainly was sharp at putting ideas to work in his constructions. Chicago had some creativity to it, but Cleveland looks nearly mundane by comparison. I'm frustrated when I see image 4 continues to be seen as the standard. BP engineered more of his keen ability into the remaining work. I think he used image 4 as a teaser and humored JJP with it.
WhiteRabbit
I tend to agree. Comparing image 5 to image 3, say, it's clear that one is stuffed with blatant image matches and the other simply isn't. If you ask me, 4 and 5 were solved first because they were the easiest.
maltedfalcon
You guys could be totally correct.
It is totally possible that the easy ones were found first.
BP did say some were definitely easier then others.
But I see absolutely nothing that shows they weren't all created/hidden using the same method.
Its easily testable though, find one using none of the methodology used in the two found casques
I will continue to search for a casque using only methods I observe in the two found casques.
erexere
It's a nobel and disciplined role that you play, Maltedfalcon. The test is to find. I'm sporting my own take on things and its not in any way an objection to your method. I'm just an impatient person in search of answers. Right now I'm in uneasy territory and I feel like its only a gamble without personally being on site. I would love to get a closer look at any of these sites...except for St. Augustine...I am steadfast on Corbett after careful first hand inspection.
erexere
I am not kidding about the Pac-Man connection. In 1980 the during the arcade game's introduction to the US from Japan, the name would've been "Puck-Man" but had been altered to "Pac-Man" to avoid vandalism on the first letter. Obvious? Heh.
The CP Rail logo was then nicknamed the "Pac-Man rail" because of how it looked like the pac-man game icon.
At this point, I think BP brought forth an extra heavy layer of Puck references. How he even came up with the Leg Eater to do this amazes me. How I came to this conclusion amazes me. I'm going to give thrasher credit...he mentioned Pac-Man somewhere recently.
In summary: pac-man arcade game = puck man, puck = Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream = leg eater lamp base of Stephens of "Pac-Man" CP Rail in Montreal extending to Vancouver's Stanley Park which refers to the puck of Hockey ala Stanley Cup and then the drought pieces of a giant checkerboard that look suspiciously like what? Pucks.
maltedfalcon
In the words of Sigmund Freud.
Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
In the words of Sigmund Freud.
Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.
In the words of Brick Tamland.
I love lamp.
maltedfalcon
I see one image I associate with the Secret
and 8 images that I do not.
I dont even get your legeater/midsummer nights dream connection
yes puck has hooves. however he does not have a lions head nor does he ever put a hoof in his mouth.
The connection is not there, any more than any horse in the 1981's Kentucky derby has a connection.
and they have 4 hooves so they have twice the connection you see with puck.
but this is purely personal opinion, if this gets you closer to a casque, I am cheering for you
bigmattyh
maltedfalcon wrote::
but this is purely personal opinion
Aw, don't negate the value of your opinion like that.
Eric, you won't be surprised to find that I think you're really off in left field again. The images of the only confirmed solutions depict literal visual confirmers along the path to the casque and at the casque burial site. With some other things thrown in there, of course. But all this interpretive stuff just isn't supported, anywhere, by anything that's actually been found. It's like you're off solving some other treasure hunt sometimes.
erexere
Trust me it's stronger as a thematic interpretation than you think. Only a pro like BP could pull it off. It's so sweet when it clicks. Remember there are fun and playful things here to be discovered.
I appreciate the opinion. I see it as a beast and hoofed leg. I'm not taking the foot in mouth approach. It conveys eating and that works perfectly when adapted to "puck-man". The Oct 1980 US release of Pac-Man works perfectly as an iconic reference. BP was a video game developer and to say he wouldn't have considered Pac-Man would be a mistake. The logo for CP Rail, which was the main venture for George Stephen of the Mount Stephen Club which has the Leg Eater Lamp distinctly resembles Pac-Man. Ignoring this connection would be a mistake. The CP rail extending from Montreal to Vancouver is a real connection. Not seeing the absolute fact that Puck is the focus of this is a mistake. The half smile half frown of the mans face is Shakespearian. We only need to consider the name of the famously hoofed character in his work...nothing fancy.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
Trust me it's stronger as a thematic interpretation than you think. Only a pro like BP could pull it off. It's so sweet when it clicks.
I appreciate the opinion. I see it as a beast and hoofed leg. I'm not taking the foot in mouth approach. It conveys eating and that works perfectly when adapted to "puck-man". The Oct 1980 US release of Pac-Man works perfectly as an iconic reference. BP was a video game developer and to say he wouldn't have considered Pac-Man would be a mistake. The logo for CP Rail, which was the main venture for George Stephen of the Mount Stephen Club which has the Leg Eater Lamp distinctly resembles Pac-Man. Ignoring this connection would be a mistake. The CP rail extending from Montreal to Vancouver is a real connection. Not seeing the absolute fact that Puck is the focus of this is a mistake. The half smile half frown of the mans face is Shakespearian. We only need to consider the name of the famously hoofed character in his work...nothing fancy.
Yeah, so, when you say "nothing fancy," you are tying in:
1) biographical facts about BP unknown to the reader (that he worked as a video game developer, and is this even true? First I've heard of it.)
2) the fact that Pac-Man's original name was "Puck-man"
3) a visual connection between Pac-Man and the logo for CP Rail (but acknowledging that for some reason, BP and JJP chose not to include a simple line drawing of the logo, or Pac-Man in the image, and instead opted to go for the far more obscure way of representing this)
4) connecting CP Rail with George Stephen (also not common knowledge)
5) tying George Stephen to the Mount Stephen Club, and
6) getting you back to the legeater, which you interpret as the specifically the half-fawn half-man character from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream
That's beyond fancy. It's baroque.
More likely, the legeater is just a visual confirmer of an object you see on the way to the casque site, or at the casque site. Just like Chicago and Cleveland. You're making this *way* too complicated!
erexere
H.mm. I concur. Those are the facts. Thats what ive done. I am going for baroque here.
forest_blight
Unknown:
I am going for baroque here.
erexere
If I'm wrong about this, I'll buy a personalized license plate for my car that reads FALLACY.
So I asked around, first a couple random folks, then some old friends I use to actually see in the arcade back in the early 90's and they straight up TOLD me it was PUCK-Man. So, I couldn't remember this bit myself, but they knew it with no problem. I'm thinking you should join in on the experiment and see how many folks you know in the 40 to 50 age bracket might answer the question: what was the original intended name for the game Pac-Man in 1980?
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
If I'm wrong about this, I'll buy a personalized license plate for my car that reads FALLACY.
So I asked around, first a couple random folks, then some old friends I use to actually see in the arcade back in the early 90's and they straight up TOLD me it was PUCK-Man. So, I couldn't remember this bit myself, but they knew it with no problem. I'm thinking you should join in on the experiment and see how many folks you know in the 40 to 50 age bracket might answer the question: what was the original intended name for the game Pac-Man in 1980?
I was just thinking about this just now...
Wouldn't it be absolutely diabolical of BP to have the drawing of the legeater represent the
actual legeater???
. Oh wow. It's positively genius. No one worthy of BP's intellect would ever deign to think that it's the
actual thing that it is on the page!
They'll be too busy seeking the far more obvious connections to Shakespeare and craftily-implied railroad logos, that they'll miss it! Oh, this is truly rich, and a testament to the mischievous mind behind this tantalizing labyrinth of a mind-game. What a trickster, that BP. A regular
Puck
, he!
erexere
bigmattyh wrote::
I was just thinking about this just now...
Wouldn't it be absolutely diabolical of BP to have the drawing of the legeater represent the
actual legeater???
. Oh wow. It's positively genius. No one worthy of BP's intellect would ever deign to think that it's the
actual thing that it is on the page!
They'll be too busy seeking the far more obvious connections to Shakespeare and craftily-implied railroad logos, that they'll miss it! Oh, this is truly rich, and a testament to the mischievous mind behind this tantalizing labyrinth of a mind-game. What a trickster, that BP. A regular
Puck
, he!
Sorry, I don't follow. You are dismissing the Mount Stephen Club lamp as a confirming clue? I'm saying it's very important to recognize that clue and then gather information on the history of the building at it's location. George Stephen was no small figure in Canada's history. It would be abundantly clear that he was a huge part of the railroad system. Would you argue that the nature of the building or a historically significant resident would have nothing to do with this hunt? You think the lamp is just a simple marker to tell you "the casque must be around here somewhere?". Are you dismissing the idea that a frowning face and a smiling face could represent tragedy and comedy and that those convey no popular connection with Shakespeare's plays or any ancient Greek theater?
This Leg Eater is definitely a Montreal Clue. The iconic railway is a huge byproduct of the Eater reference. Pac-Man looks like the CP logo and carries the Eater logic from it's starting place in Montreal to it's end in Vancouver where the most popular Canadian reference to a puck is best connected, Lord Stanley's Park. Can this be argued in a truly constructive manner or should I expect more tacky jabs?
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
Sorry, I don't follow. You are dismissing the Mount Stephen Club lamp as a confirming clue?
Unknown:
I'm saying it's very important to recognize that clue and then gather information on the history of the building at it's location.
Unknown:
George Stephen was no small figure in Canada's history. It would be abundantly clear that he was a huge part of the railroad system.
Unknown:
Would you argue that the nature of the building or a historically significant resident would have nothing to do with this hunt?
Unknown:
You think the lamp is just a simple marker to tell you "the casque must be around here somewhere?".
Unknown:
Are you dismissing the idea that a frowning face and a smiling face could represent tragedy and comedy and that those convey no popular connection with Shakespeare's plays or any ancient Greek theater?
Unknown:
This Leg Eater is definitely a Montreal Clue. The iconic railway is a huge byproduct of the Eater reference. Pac-Man looks like the CP logo and carries the Eater logic from it's starting place in Montreal to it's end in Vancouver where the most popular Canadian reference to a puck is best connected, Lord Stanley's Park.
Unknown:
Can this be argued in a truly constructive manner or should I expect more tacky jabs?
What I've been saying is: the drawing of the lamp is a clue that represents the lamp at the Mt. Stephen Club. It is not Puck, or connected to Puck-man/Pac-man or anything else.
I'm saying that this is not relevant to solving the puzzle. You had to know nothing about the history of Grant Park or the Cleveland Cultural Gardens, or anything else along the way other than what your eyes could get from having your feet on the ground in the treasure path.
So what?
This is my problem with your methodology: You see a clue -- a relevant clue, even -- and you take it two steps too far into free-association-land. Example: legeater -> George Stephen -> railroads. This solution likely has nothing to do with railroads.
You know what solution did have something to do with railroads? The Houston solution. That puzzle tells you to take your task to the number 982, which was a number painted visibly on a large locomotive engine in one of Houston's biggest, most-visited parks. It required nothing of you knowing the history of railroads in Houston or anywhere else -- only that you go to the park and keep your eyes open. Done.
Yes. It's just like the line "Where M and B are set in stone": You only had to notice that Mozart and Beethoven were carved into the building -- not the history or significance of the building itself.
It's different in the case of the Roanoke solution, because the site itself has major, well-known importance. The Wright Brothers' first flight was a major world event. I doubt very many people at all know who George Stephen is.
Yes. As in "you're on the right track." We've seen these obvious, literal confirmers in both the Chicago and Cleveland solutions: the man on the horse, the Water Tower, the fence (Chicago), Terminal Tower, the lion's head, the basin, the columns (Cleveland). All literally depicted in the images.
Obviously, not everything depicted in the image is a literal representation of something. But when you find a literal thing that actually exists, represented in the picture, yes. It means that literal thing.
I do understand the reference, and I agree that the tragedy/comedy masks are a widely-understood reference to drama or the theater. But I don't think that a much more generalized version of it (a wry smile) also means that we should be thinking about, say, "A Midsummer Night's Dream" or any other of Shakespeare's plays.
You clearly prefer the complicated to the simple.
Yes.
erexere
We simply can't know how far BP took this game. Arguing for a universally simple approach is a tad short-sighted.
bigmattyh
It's like this.
Imagine a dresser with 12 drawers. We know very little about it -- only that a carpenter made it and put things inside the drawers.
After a while, someone opens a drawer and finds a red ball. Then someone opens another drawer and finds another red ball.
Some of us say, oh interesting: there might be a pattern here. Others of us say, oh interesting: the next drawer might contain a giraffe.
erexere
It's more like this, I'm putting up ideas and you are criticizing. Too bad you can't come up with a stronger line of arguement. Try to point out the conflicts in all of my solution attempts. I have landed on a complete arrangement of image-verse pairingswithout conflicts. It's not 100%, but Shecrab just caught a major detail with the word 'honking' not being a reference to a bugle. I don't think it hurts to get down to the bare bones of the lines. If the connections made are doubly associated then it becomes a proofing system rather than a fallacy of logic. You have to work with loose ideas for a time to gather the possibilities. If you don't then you are an exceptional individual and we marvel at your ability to be 100% right...now show us a casque. Go ahead and argue your precious box methodology. Call my work a giraffe...it just makes you look small and petty. It's been discussed and verified that BP never said they were all easy and uniform. Calling the Secret a cabinet of drawers only serves to validate a narrow standard that just isn't proven based on just two solutions. You're not thinking...you're complaining.
I'm curious about the blob, it looks pixel based like the ghosts in Pac-Man. I also wonder about the phonetic similarity where GOH-T and GOH-ST differ only slightly.
WhiteRabbit
The thing that gets me about the legeater is this.
If people think this means there's a casque in Montreal, and they take BP's "there is a casque in St Louis" (sorry, forgotten the exact wording) to signify the city, then what other site (SF, Charleston, Roanoke, Cleveland, Chicago, Florida, New Orleans, Houston, Milwaukee, Boston, NY) are they willing to let go of...?
And if you're not willing to let go of any of them, and BP didn't mean there was a casque in Louis Armstrong
Park
, then what did he mean, and how much trust can you put in any of his other statements...?
(Personally I'm happy to go with Montreal and Armstrong Park. I'm just curious what the other options are.)
erexere
I'm with you there,WR. My opinion is he was referring to "St. Louis" street in New Orleans. I argue that there isn't a St.Louis Armstrong Park, so you're off a bit with that association. BP said "St.Louis is right"...perhaps a little misleading but not completely.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
It's more like this, I'm putting up ideas and you are criticizing. It's been discussed and verified that BP never said they were all easy and uniform.
I'm curious about the blob, it looks pixel based like the ghosts in Pac-Man.
Yes thats the way it works, one puts up an idea, and others tear it down. The ideas that survive are more likely correct.
and while BP never said they were uniform, he never said they were all different, and to me an uniform solution makes more sense.
He did say he expected all of them to be solved within 6 months to a year of the publishing of the book which to me argues against layer upon layer of depth.
and no - the blob does not look like the pac man ghosts. yes it looks pixelated. and rougly dome shaped. but that is the extent of it. there are so many features that do not match that out number the 2 that do.
erexere
Yes, but tearing down one interpretation just to replace it with another based on mere preference is weak and inconsistant with finding good hard exact evidence. I must say shecrab has done the best at upholding that kind of rigor.
Saying the blob doesnt look anything like a pac-man ghost is one thing, saying you have something in mind that looks a degree or more closly matching is another. Lets be more objective on that level.
maltedfalcon
Feel free to read the last 9 years or so of my posts to find the many many things I have suggested the blob looks like or considered as others posted them.
I don't really feel like reposting them, Many of my ideas about the blob have been shot down. Dont feel singled out, I beleive at this point 100% of all the blob suggestions have been wrong. I don't believe we have found it yet.
but if you prefer, when you post something I don't think is valid, I wont comment.
erexere
Your posts are welcome. Its up to you if you are willing to share the nuts and bolts of your opinion. I have read over the entire thread and the problem with all the other blob suggestions is just that the havent given us a substantial lead. I offer the ghost only because ithe question was raised about why there was a more pacman specific detail in the image. The ghost might be that detail even if only a hint of similarity.
bigmattyh
erexere wrote::
Yes, but tearing down one interpretation just to replace it with another based on mere preference is weak and inconsistant with finding good hard exact evidence. I must say shecrab has done the best at upholding that kind of rigor.
It isn't "mere preference." There's a lot more supporting the point of view I'm advocating.
Your definition of hard evidence and rigor seems to completely ignore all of the reasonable objections I've made to your "layers of meaning" methodology. I hate to be so blunt sometimes, but frankly, it seems like you're working on a completely different treasure hunt.
erexere
Bigmatty, you quickly understood my process and declared your position on my method. Everything has layers. It was up to BP to decide where and how much to build depth into this hunt. Its just an opinion based on a relatively small sample that you have established a fixed perspective on a uniform simple or nonlayered approach.
Im the Johnny Come Lately here and so I get it, but dont think Ive under valued all the hard work that you and others have put into this. I only offer ideas after considering what you have already put in the forums. Im definitly working on the sane hunt. I am breaking the pattern however and as long as im not making any big errors, I hope my two cents might add up to something.
cw0909
maybe you will see something better,that youve looked at or,something you have
been looking for and cant find
hxxp://www.360cities.net/image/mcgill-u ... ,0.54,68.9
sorry forgot the HP
hxxp://www.360cities.net
shecrab
Unknown:
We simply can't know how far BP took this game. Arguing for a universally simple approach is a tad short-sighted.
That isn't short-sighted, it's sensible. In any sort of puzzle or treasure hunt, you must gauge how the general public is going to view what clues you leave. Leaving layers of obtuse clues does not make it easier to attain your goal, it makes it far less likely.
If you pick apart either of the solved hunts, you will see that there was little or no wordplay, no "third-party" clues at all and they were both arranged in "rebus" form--i.e., they had some direct and some indirect parts that made up the truth--the answer. "Where M and B are set in stone" is just THAT--M=Mozart, B=Beethoven, both were carved in a stone building.
M & B, Set in Stone
. It doesn't mean anything ELSE. There is no historical reference there, no little bits of Americana, no obscure quotation to find in an equally obscure book. It was SIMPLE. How many times do you think people went over and over M's and B's, separately and together, before the truth was known? A lot.
Yet it eluded everyone until the casque was found. It was not "hidden"--not twisted, not buried under any other layers of meaning. But it is exactly that simplicity--that smack-on-the-forehead simplicity--that kept it unknown until the casque was found.
It is my opinion that we will not be able to find these by Googling. We might narrow down a location to a generalized area, but until a sight-confirmed visual marker is found, we will only have a great deal of speculation for the actual burial site. Not many of these verses are as specific as Cleveland (beneath the tenth stone from right to left, beneath the ninth row from the top, etc etc OF THE WALL, etc) or contain such accurate visual aids as the Chicago image. It is a waste of time and effort to find all these supposed "connections", no matter how tempting their connectivity, when you should instead be looking for actual visual confirmation that fits precisely with the verse elements.
In other words, it IS simple. But that doesn't mean you're going to find it faster.
WhiteRabbit
Erexere -
Most people will only accept simple methods, because only simple methods were used for the two solved casques. The fallacy here is that the two solved casques were solved
because
they were simple, and the other casques require methods that are more complex. But there is no precedent, so people won't apply those methods. It's a chicken-and-egg problem. The way out of this impasse is to solve a puzzle using more complex methods and then induce someone to actually dig it up as proof positive, setting a new precedent. This final step is the most difficult one.
erexere
Update. Out of two dozen folks in the 40-50 age bracket only four knew the Puck Man reference. I put a poll to everyone on my facebook friend list and a high number of younger folks 25-35 got the reference...then I learned it was used in a recent film, Scott Pilgrim vs the World. My experiment is broken...
Make that five folks.
WhiteRabbit
Grr, that blob. Here's a rubbish comparison to a trellis near the legeater.
bigmattyh
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Most people will only accept simple methods, because only simple methods were used for the two solved casques. The fallacy here is that the two solved casques were solved
because
they were simple, and the other casques require methods that are more complex.
It's actually not a fallacy at all. There is one very good reason why the other casques might not have been found yet: the fact that the world has changed a lot in the last 30 years, and many of the signposts leading the way are just plain
gone
. I'm sure at least a few of the casques themselves are gone. Dug up by a bulldozer and dumped in the back of a truck and hauled away forever, with no one making a note of it.
Also -- and people keep forgetting this -- BP himself admitted that he grossly miscalculated how "easy" he'd made the puzzle, even for the world of 1982. He expected most of the casques to have been unearthed within a year or two after the book was published.
shecrab
Sorry for this comment being here in the Image 9 thread--but this needs to be noted.
There is another issue about these puzzles. Ignore the images completely, just look at the two solutions using the VERSES. You will notice something very VERY important: that the verses are not in any particular ORDER. You cannot start at line one and trace a path through the VERSE. You might be able to do that, as 4thrasher has said, through the IMAGES--beginning at an "iconic" site--but you cannot do that with the verses.
This is extremely important.
The verses are not linear.
This makes a huge difference with some of them. Note also there is little to no punctuation--to let you know what part goes WITH what other parts. You might be looking at a "giant pole" but does that mean that it somehow comes BEFORE you get to the "giant step?"
Not necessarily!!
Read through verse 3--you cannot tell if you are supposed to "take the five steps" first, after you find the stairs, or before. Or if the "green tower of lights" is in the "middle section
near those who pass the coliseum
" or just "in the middle
section of the area of his direction
"--or some
other
place. THIS is what makes these puzzles so damned hard--it is the (deliberate!) lack of linear tracking. You can't figure out where to go even when you find a likely location--because you cannot put the verse elements IN ORDER. That's why the images are vitally important--and why you must find as many visual confirmers as possible, so you can use them to put the verse elements in order and lead yourself to the casque.
And some of these verses are worse than others. Some have a lot more directions--why? Because there are a lot FEWER VISUAL CONFIRMERS. Counting trees? Steps? paces? from where? You must find that out
first
. When you find a visual confirmation as clear and unambiguous as the Montreal Legeater lamppost, you probably ought to be working everything in a very small radius around that little item--especially when you can't find anything else in the image that matches anything! Same with the Children's Zoo in Houston--you know for a fact that it's there--somewhere--because you have so many other things that dump you into that area: 982, lion, woods, Texas, Hermann, whistle--the only things you don't have are the "four alike" and the "small, split, 3-winged and slight" (though I do believe I found that--see the thread on verse 1!) This verse doesn't even tell you WHERE to DIG, even if you knew what those things meant, but the most likely location is "in the middle of four alike."
I think the problem with these puzzles is not that they are really difficult or that they are obscure--it is that they are just so non-linear. BP just sort of shambled some things about the locations together into a kind of organic free verse relating to the place--with some literary things thrown in to sweeten the poems, and tie them together into a semblance of order. The trick was, there IS NO ORDER. And they didn't get solved because of it.
Maybe he underestimated the public's interest in the hunt--Masquerade and Treasure and even "Who Killed the Robbins Family" were all far more popular and got way more attention. And there must have been 20 others that also came out at around the same time, glutting the market, and making The Secret just one of those little books that didn't get much airplay. Then he died--and all bets were off. The tricks can never be uncovered, the real secrets never known! it's fun to try, though.
Okay, rant over. But if you remember that these puzzles are not linear, you might be more successful in finding what you can SIMPLY, rather than trying to layer them with meaning that probably isn't there at all.
erexere
The blob. My very first impression was that it reminded me of one of the aliens in the video game Space Invaders. I dismissed the idea since I couldn't see how the notion could lead to a practical location...a well established arcade?
The blob is pixelated. Many art sculptures emulate that blocky style. Strange buildings like the Habitat use it. Perhaps JJP has redacted a regular image so that all we have is a general shape formed of black blocks. Maybe it's a mini block puzzle like those keychains with moving tiles numbered 1-15 and the 16th place is empty so they are allowed freedom to move.
maltedfalcon
the blob is not pixelated. as shown by the curving lines at the top and corner.
If it were pixelated those would not show up at all.
It is a silohuette of something, we just havent found it yet.
erexere
I've been thinking it looks somewhat like a train's front.
spinner
Sup Homies!!!
Over the past 6 months I have tried to locate a legeater in St. Louis. Again the idea being that more than two objects in the world have that feature. Well, through research of the lamp posts and an intensive social media search involving thousands I have big big news!!!! Ok, not really. Nothing. Have found a couple of Candleabras that are close, but no where nearly as exact. I will keep my eyes open, but so far nada and this pic continues to be Canada until a legeater can be found somewhere else.
Trohn
Still looks like a jockey on a horse to me.
erexere
Trohn wrote::
Still looks like a jockey on a horse to me.
Oh wow, so thats what youve been calling the Jockey....all this time I thought you were talking about image 7.
I need help seeing how that looks like a jockey on horse. Got any pics?
Trohn
Turn the book (photo) 90 degrees.
forest_blight
spinner, so cruel! You had me going there. I hold out hope for a St. Louis legeater lamp.
Trohn
erexere wrote::
Oh wow, so thats what youve been calling the Jockey....all this time I thought you were talking about image 7.
I need help seeing how that looks like a jockey on horse. Got any pics?
Eric-
Something you may have missed by being relatively new to this...
The hands on the picture form a double steeple - the back one even forming a cross. (like in the children's nursery rhyme
about seeing the church and the people).
The other view which may be seeing what one wants (but highly plausible) is the back fingers form a cross to mean 'Church' while the front bent finger is in the form of a hill to mean 'Hill'.
erexere
I'm still liking the Harding connections. The Harding memorial in Stanley Park looks suspiciously like the inspiration for a the wide headed mashup in this image:
Also, I like the 180 degree rotated Mitchell Island as a rough fit to the hat:
Then there's the curving checker pattern of the Harding Tomb in Ohio:
maltedfalcon
your suggesting there were two in Ohio?
erexere
No. Its an outsider reference. Similar to Keats epitaph. You wouldnt want to suggest a casque is near his tomb just because a few words or a checkered pattern are associated with the process of understanding the puzzle.
insane
Could the St. Louis logo represent the St. Lawrence river flowing into Lake Saint-Louis, Montreal?
hxxp://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&bav=on ... CB8Q8gEwAA
erexere
Insane, what is the St. Louis logo?
WhiteRabbit
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...just been revisiting Percy Walters Park near the dogleg where you can see these...
A Montreal puzzler called Sly will be digging for the casque in Percy Walters today. Wish him luck.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
We went to dig the hole yesterday...there was a lot of rocks....
Sly didn't find the casque, but it was great to make contact with a veteran puzzle-solver in the city with a willingness to go out and dig holes in local parks. I can post up his thoughts and findings if there's any interest. Montreal has always seemed a difficult one to progress though, and I don't really know what other people make of it. For one thing, I'm pretty focussed on V2 for Montreal, which I know is an unpopular choice. I don't know how many people on this forum still think there's a treasure in Montreal, or what verse they're trying to use for it. I still have no idea how anyone even found the legeater in the first place. Was it suspected that there was a casque in Montreal before that, or was the discovery sheer coincidence?
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Sly didn't find the casque, but it was great to make contact with a veteran puzzle-solver in the city with a willingness to go out and dig holes in local parks. I can post up his thoughts and findings if there's any interest. Montreal has always seemed a difficult one to progress though, and I don't really know what other people make of it. For one thing, I'm pretty focussed on V2 for Montreal, which I know is an unpopular choice. I don't know how many people on this forum still think there's a treasure in Montreal, or what verse they're trying to use for it. I still have no idea how anyone even found the legeater in the first place. Was it suspected that there was a casque in Montreal before that, or was the discovery sheer coincidence?
This news is a bummer, but good on 'em! And thanks for the updates!
Montreal was suggested long before the "legeater" discovery, which made it even more palatable. I've given this one lots of thought, as have others, and Verse 2 is very reasonable. What makes it hard, though, is that the verse is so consistent with a couple of other known locations as well.
I wish I would have known he was going... Did Sly check behind the wall at the top of the steps, in the back-center of the park? That's been my proposition for a while.
One really interesting aspect of a Montreal solve would be... I think it would break open the verse conundrum: There are many verses with literary quotes that seem to specify/confirm a specific place (St. Charles Hotel = New Orleans), as well as lines (Paul Revere's ride = Boston); It would be great for a solve to come along that either proved the lines to be complimentary to the location, or prove them as red herrings (i.e. the Revere line verse is NOT in Boston).
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Thanks, again, for the update WR.
WhiteRabbit
(Thanks for that Hirudiniforme. I'm not sure exactly where he dug, but I'm hoping for some pics. I'll see if he might be tempted towards the forum, though he's pretty busy with the legendary French puzzle "Sur la trace de la chouette d'or"...
)
WhiteRabbit
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...the adjacent
St Helen's Island
, with the Expo 67 Buckminster Fuller
biosphere
.
(The Field Guide mentions it on P158...which probably means you can rule it out. It does make quite a nice opal though.)
(Together, these two islands make up
Parc Jean Drapeau
which was the site of
Expo 67
.)
Biosphere trivia...
The structure is used prominently in the original Battlestar Galactica television series episode, "Greetings from Earth"
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Biosph%C3%A8re
;)
Famous Geodesic dome...Field Guide's "Geodesic Gnome"..."Gnomes admire" -> "Dome's E margin"...
(I know anagrams are a bit rubbish, but let's face it, so's this book...
)
erexere
i love trivia...so good to see some lighthearted rubbish.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Did Sly check behind the wall at the top of the steps, in the back-center of the park? That's been my proposition for a while.
Unknown:
Queen. (To FLUVIA.) Hie thee, Fluvia, to yon coral dell, where
water fays delight to chase the beams that fall from Cynthia's lamp :
if aught thou see of one for whom thy gentle lady mourns, strike on
thy shell, and give it life again.
Unknown:
PUCK.
List then!—Such wonders shall ye hear,
As never enter'd fairy-ear.—
Through all this flow'r-embroider'd grove,
Where elves and fays delight to rove
Unknown:
Not only elfin fays delight
To hail the sober queen of night
You mean here...?
He's still musing over possible locations in Percy Walters, so I can mention it to him...any reason why? I know you wouldn't have suggested it without some of that "well thought-out reasoning". ;D
(Dalrymple, The Naiad Queen)
"The Fairy Favour"
hxxp://ota.ox.ac.uk/text/4538?CAMEFROM=itunesu.txt
LLoyd; "To The Moon"
hxxp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CTpj ... 22&f=false
Hirudiniforme
WhiteRabbit wrote::
You mean here...?
He's still musing over possible locations in Percy Walters, so I can mention it to him...any reason why? I know you wouldn't have suggested it without some of that "well thought-out reasoning".
Are you making fun of my reasoning?
Well thought out, sorta... I like to be able to verify things before posting speculation.
Are there 15 steps leading down in front of the wall? Standing at that wall, it looked to be 15 rows down to the ground. Though, I have never been able to get a pic with enough detail to count, or get someone to go there and count for me. I can tell there are more than 13 and less than 17 from the photos I can find.
At the end of the day though, I still think V2 goes with NO.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Unknown:
Cowper's Letters ought to be printed in letters of gold and ornamented with jewels of Heaven, Havillah, Eden, and all the countries where jewels abound.
I've asked Sly about those steps.
The fifteen-storey Gare Windsor (sovereign people) at the end of legeater alley (Rue Drummond) bears a familiar date.
(I think the book is riddled with deliberate overlaps and cross-references of this kind, and that the Sarmiento quote is one of them.)
Back to the park...
Only three stand watch. Watchdogs...? The park has three gates with these signs...
(Sly pointed out that dogs are man's best friend.)
Re: in the middle of 21, I think there may be 21 of these fence panels along the Redpath side...asked him to count those as well...
Each panel has fifteen spikes or "fifteen rows down to the ground"...
I think this one is in the middle of twenty one.
erexere
Breakthrough. What hand gesture do you make to say the word "mesh"? What popular Canadian sport evolved from Native American origins?
Does his head have the shape of a football? The Grey Cup of 1982 featured the Edmonton Eskimos and Doctor Death's run of 5 straight victories.
The Stanley Cup of hockey was certainly in the shadow of the CFL that year.
maltedfalcon
What could something that happened in 1982 have to do with a book written in 1981?
and the hand sign for mesh is similar to pretending your two hands are gears ans the fingers spin into each other.
the hands are held vertically and parallel to the body,
So nothing like the image.
erexere
I have a November/1982 publication date on my copy of the book. I don't know for sure if Byron didn't edit or make entries to his book for any of the 10 months prior in that year.
The events of the CFL in 78 to 81 were still of great significance.
I'm working on a theory about "roots", not just because the word appears in the verse 10. More to come.
maltedfalcon
Just to be clear. in 1982 a november publish date would have meant that the book would have been completed and set , to allow for print scheduling typesetting and photosetting - at least 1 year in advance. add into that having the paintings made, the casques created and then buried. The book would haved basically been written by the end of 1979 The casques into the ground in 1980 and 1981 to put it all together.
erexere
I found a book about the history of Stanley Park written mostly in poetry. Its from 1929. Its the oddest thing with a whole chapter about an actual occurance where a huge hunt was mustered after a cougar whichbdragged off one of the six goats (in the zoo area?). Im not disagreeing with the leg-eater lamp discovery, which I firmly consider a clue about the CP railway and the first train to make the trip No.374. I think the legeater does look like a cougar eating a goat. Surely this item in the pc could be about both.
By Shore and Trail in Stanley Park
See p.141 (PDF page 168) for "one of the most interesting episodes in the history of the park".
erexere
(Page 141)
The Cougar
In the Pavilion there, for all to see,
Above the mantel, in a case of glass,
The cougar stands. How did it come to pass
A fate like this should fall to such as she,
Who once the forest ranged fearless and free,
A stealthy huntress, lithe and swift?
Alas! Her roving temper moved her to harass
The Park preserves—such fools may felines be!
Swiftly she swam the Narrows, softly crept
Across the beach, the road, through brush, o'er logs,
To the deer paddock, made her killing there.
Each night she found her prey; by day she kept
Her hiding, but not long—for men with dogs,
Skilled Nimrods, came and tracked her to her lair. (End)
I have a few considerations on the LegEater lamp, but first I cant help wondering if the "for all to see" line isn't a sort of crossover with Verse 7 line 6. Not seeing a reason or use for drawing that connection other than noting the same three words..just a fluke i bet.
1. The lamp was discovered by accident and the excitement behind it draws our focus deeper into Montreal.
2. The lamp is used to reference the Canadian locomotive #374.
3. A cougar head eating a deer/goat leg helps point to the big news event from Oct.26 1911 in Stanley Park.
4. The #374 miniature train has a "look for the hidden cougar" attraction based on this historical event.
5. A head which is eating and a leg consumed does correlate to the character of Pac-Man, which is essentially a head with no legs that constantly consumes. Pac-Man was an immediate success in 1980 and was formerly known as Puck Man. I find the word puck is indicative of hockey which is fully supported if a location in Stanley Park is the intended interpretation. Combined with the fact that the CPR was nicknamed the "Pac-Man" train.
erexere
Looking closely at image 9 it seems there are 3 groupings of checker pattern that are distinctly similar with even the same number of tiny squares if you bother to count them: the area below his neckline as one section, and the cuffs of his sleeves, each a section. I consider this a strong indicator that this is meant to describe the spot in Stanley Park that has 3 giant checker game boards. I haven't found many pictures of these boards, but I have found enough evidence that suggests this is their layout, each turned at a slightly different angle from the other, closely matching this drawing I've mocked up if we had an aerial view of the boards,
Also, this next bit is truly amazing and It's a travesty if folks don't see what about this image justifies this approach:
now this,
and this,
The Harding memorial was dedicated by the Kiwanis organization. Kiwanis is a Native American word for "we meet/share". The verse very accurately describes this location: The natives still remember / Him of Hard word in 3 Vol. I think I might have already posted the link about this firm connection to the 3 volume set of presidential speeches.
erexere
A fact to be yet checked that would explain why Preiss was doubly inspired to use the LegEater requires finding out if the stuffed cougar encased in glass at the Park Pavilion was still viewable in 1981 and some statement or plaque made clear how this evnt was a big deal.
The cougar ate 3 deer and 3 goats, day by day, as men hunted for it. That's an amazing bit of history.
maltedfalcon
you know if the legeater looked like a cougar, which it doesnt I would think maybe.
however it looks exactly (not somewhat) like the lamp. to the extent that whoever drew the legeater obviously was looking at a picture of the lamp.
so simply put, unless you find one of those lamps elsewhere its in montreal.
on the other hand I tried the mad fold-in idea on every image vertically and horziontally a while back, I found nothing.
erexere
I don't think the legeater is exactly cougar either, my point is that it is more like a cougar than anything else and the other points persuede us to consider George Stephens' connection in this.
The deal with the fold in is a matter of lacking a good quality picture that shows how the hair on the two status isnan exact katch to the two sides of the man's hair.
So I need a passport to go to Canada now?
maltedfalcon
technically I think you only need the passport to come home. but I could be wrong about that.
and again it might look somewhat like a cougar, but it looks exactly like a lamp, making all other comparisons moot and therefore pointless.
erexere
I've found nothing to support the Cougar is/was still on display since 1980. Stanley Park has been in the news in recent months for a number of arson incidents. Why do people have to screw things up for others?
I thought the legeater shares the characteristic ears back while teeth barred same as the cougars in these images.
forestblight has done some of the most extensive research on this lamp. The photo from 1903 suggests the lamp has been there long before the events of Oct. 1911 when the cougar went on a leg bender in Stanley Park. Given this logical beginning I might be best off concluding that Preiss studied the Mount Stephen Club for sometime and concluded that a beast-eat-leg in connection to train-cross-country could be enough to spark a leap to Stanley Park. Both points are giant clues. The chess boards "3" and the presidential speeches in 3 volumes are also huge. Even the latitude number, currently consider a 4/6 combo is a little suspicious given the lat of Montreal is 45.5 and the strong alternative of the 6 being flipped as a 9 inverted on the same line as the 4 is a better fit with the lat of Vancouver, 49.2. It really is too bad I can't find the image that shows how all the strands of hair on both sides of the mans head matches the same flow of strands including the curls on each of the two women's statues. It is EXACT.
maltedfalcon
all you need to do to convince me is find one of those lamps in Vancouver.
until then I think you're shoe-horning clues into place.
forest_blight
I will be in Vancouver for a conference for the rest of this week. And while I won't have much (or any) free time, I will certainly keep an eye out for that lamp!
erexere
Take a very good photo of the two statues at the Harding Memorial.
There's no point in a lamp being in Vancouver. The lamp in Montreal is important with respect to the history of George Stephen.
maltedfalcon
I dont buy that at all- in the found casques images - the images in the picture are basically independent of the verse. So by finding a lamp in any other city, that would open up the possibility of any unused verse being applicable and the casque being there. i.e., if anybody ever finds a lamp in St Louis, I would think that would actually be a better fit for the image.
erexere
I found the road segment "curve" match to Cleveland and so it works to consider basic maps of areas or aerials. I know folks have been largely against those comparisons, understandable given the risk of inumerable similarities wherever one might look...o road segment, where have you not been?
Is it true that there the symbol above the legeater shaped like an X in a box can be considered to represent a totem
pole
? Trohn mentioned that awhile back.
erexere
I found the road segment "curve" match to Cleveland and so it works to consider basic maps of areas or aerials. I know folks have been largely against those comparisons, understandable given the risk of inumerable similarities wherever one might look...o road segment, where have you not been?
Is it true that there the symbol above the legeater shaped like an X in a box can be considered to represent a totem pole? Trohn mentioned that awhile back.
erexere
Found a strong match to the image today. I want to present it flipped and reversed and see if anyone recognizes it. I think it rivals the lamp.
erexere
Unknown:
George Stephen
, also known as Sir George Stephen, was a Scots-Quebecker banker and railway executive in Canada. He became the first president of
Canadian Pacific Railway
in 1880 and was the main contributor to the early success of CPR. Building the costly transcontinental railway was a very difficult task which involved several financial problems and cost overruns, but Stephen with the help of his banking experience managed to put together the finance required to complete the project. He even staked his own money in the project. He was a magnanimous philanthropist in Montreal and England and donated over $1 million during his life. The Royal Victoria Hospital, Montreal, and hospitals in England were among the beneficiaries from his wealth. He was also the first Canadian to be knighted when he was made a Baronet of Montreal in the Province of Quebec in the Dominion of Canada. His house in Montreal was turned into a private club,
Mount Stephen Club
.
Big grey tree arch over a small path just
south
of Burrard Inlet,
The small end rests on the inverted V arch support while the larger base portion rests on a rock pile amidst some shrubs. At the base of that there is a plaque that reads,
5 feet suspended above is the bottom view of the tree where it was severed from the stump.
I printed this and made a crappy hand drawn attempt at outlining it's silhouette which I ended up rotating 90 degrees.
I completed some of the lines afterwards.
I thought it kinda looked like this,
I think this is one of the main objects for the Image 9 and Verse 10 pairing.
This is Vancouver. Remember the LegEater Lamp in Montreal? It's in front of the Mount Stephen Club. Let's look at an excerpt from a biography about the man that house and lamp belonged to,
500 feet away from the Lumberman's Arch is a miniature train built to honor Canada's first transcontinental railway trip, the No.374 of George Stephen's
Canadian Pacific Railway
company.
Just up the road next to the 9 o'clock Gun is the Brockton Point light house. It has an iron railing that closely resembles something from the image minus a circle and the two runes.
Revisiting the Latitude options:
Stanley Park Lat/Long:
49
.3037° N, 123.1452° W
The Montreal alternative: a 4 combined with a 6 to make 46. Near Mount Stephen Club Lat/Long:
45
.5081° N, 73.5550° W. Technically we could round it to 46.
The Expo '67 option: it looks like a 67 also, and the Expo logo does have a flower, although the outline of the flower doesn't match in any significant way other than saying here's one round shape and here is another round shape each with distinct and intricate differences.
erexere
Unknown:
George Stephen
, also known as Sir George Stephen, was a Scots-Quebecker banker and railway executive in Canada. He became the first president of
Canadian Pacific Railway
in 1880 and was the main contributor to the early success of CPR. Building the costly transcontinental railway was a very difficult task which involved several financial problems and cost overruns, but Stephen with the help of his banking experience managed to put together the finance required to complete the project. He even staked his own money in the project. He was a magnanimous philanthropist in Montreal and England and donated over $1 million during his life. The Royal Victoria Hospital, Montreal, and hospitals in England were among the beneficiaries from his wealth. He was also the first Canadian to be knighted when he was made a Baronet of Montreal in the Province of Quebec in the Dominion of Canada. His house in Montreal was turned into a private club,
Mount Stephen Club
.
Big grey tree arch over a small path just south of Burrard Inlet,
The small end rests on the inverted V arch support while the larger base portion rests on a rock pile amidst some shrubs. At the base of that there is a plaque that reads,
5 feet suspended above is the bottom view of the tree where it was severed from the stump.
I printed this and made a crappy hand drawn attempt at outlining it's silhouette which I ended up rotating 90 degrees.
I completed some of the lines afterwards.
I thought it kinda looked like this,
I think this is one of the main objects for the Image 9 and Verse 10 pairing.
This is Vancouver. Remember the LegEater Lamp in Montreal? It's in front of the Mount Stephen Club. Let's look at an excerpt from a biography about the man that house and lamp belonged to,
500 feet away from the Lumberman's Arch is a miniature train built to honor Canada's first transcontinental railway trip, the No.374 of George Stephen's
Canadian Pacific Railway
company.
Just up the road next to the 9 o'clock Gun is the Brockton Point light house. It has an iron railing that closely resembles something from the image minus a circle and the two runes.
Revisiting the Latitude options:
Stanley Park Lat/Long:
49
.3037° N, 123.1452° W
The Montreal alternative: a 4 combined with a 6 to make 46. Near Mount Stephen Club Lat/Long:
45
.5081° N, 73.5550° W. Technically we could round it to 46.
The Expo '67 option: it looks like a 67 also, and the Expo logo does have a flower, although the outline of the flower doesn't match in any significant way other than saying here's one round shape and here is another round shape each with distinct and intricate differences.
erexere
Leg to log
Shore to shore
Pour some Egg Nog
And take the tour
Montreal to Vancouver
A railway the longest
On tree and on cougar
A giant's foot arched
Was a tower
Now a flower
Don't be parched
Quench thy thirst
Casque be third
But for you the first
Now don't dally too longest.
erexere
Years of weather may have caused the tree to split and widen a little at top. Not a stone statue or a metal lamp, but it looks like one of the best matches I've seen in awhile.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Years of weather may have caused the tree to split and widen a little at top. Not a stone statue or a metal lamp, but it looks like one of the best matches I've seen in awhile.
If you showed me a 122, 123 or 124, I'd be inclined to agree.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
If you showed me a 122, 123 or 124, I'd be inclined to agree.
I keep looking at those bits of hair like it's a "23", but that's about it. Sorry.
I've been very interested in this possible "blob" comparison. My hand at recreating a side view and a rear view of the 9 o'clock Gun from a recent photo. Older photos from the 60's and 80's show that nothing significant has been altered other than the building surround and armature restoration.
maltedfalcon
So I looked at your trace and it looked "off" So I did an accurate trace from the image.
After considering how exact hidden images are in the Found images and comparing the accurate outline of the stump to the flower.
The definitely do not match. not even close. outside of a general similarity that just about any cross section of a lumpy tree trunk would show.
It looks more like when you made your "Handdrawn" trace you either consciously or unconsciously emphasized the features that made it look closer. I don't think you have found a match here.
maltedfalcon
possibly this is a fit for
in the shadow of the grey giant
find the arm that extends over the slender path.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Stanley Park Lat/Long:
49
.3037° N, 123.1452° W
The Montreal alternative: a 4 combined with a 6 to make 46. Near Mount Stephen Club Lat/Long:
45
.5081° N, 73.5550° W. Technically we could round it to 46.
I think you are going too specific a lat/lon, the found casques have multiple coordinates that describe a box that surrounds the city where the casque is found. not a particular single spot.
erexere
Maltedf. That is excellent work. I don't know how you did it but you sure know how to compare graphical images. I know they arent exact but even so the similarity with so much time passed and whether nature has altered the wood along with how accurate the flower was intended to be leaves me with a buzz of suspended excitement.
Whats that rune square all about? Is it a big letter D with a smaller H and L within? DHL...D.H.Lawrence maybe?
maltedfalcon
Thats a p7 for parking lot 7
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I know they arent exact but even so the similarity with so much time passed and whether nature has altered the wood along with how accurate the flower was intended to be leaves me with a buzz of suspended excitement.
I doubt the shape of the tree has changed enough to make it a radically different shape. While there might be some missing the parts that are there do not match. Again all the other site confirmer images are exact matches.
So theories based off this connection are a stretch.
And the for the square to match the railing the would have needed to be a circle in the middle of it.
again not a match.
erexere
No, I agree, it isn't radically different except for that large lobe to the upper right (looking at the tree itself) which seems like it's more susceptible to water pooling and freezing along that major split in the top. That could've widened it from the center a number of inches or even a foot. Being a park monument, I expect it would've been maintained to a degree.
So, this doesn't shout "success!", but it does cause a din of "maybe!".
About those runes, looking at the Elder Futhark meanings, the "|><|" shape is a "d" meaning "day", the 'P' shape means "joy", and the "L" means "lake". Likely, joy and lake go together. Joy Lake in Canada is in Manitoba, central Canada. Day occurs at "noon" which also may be considered central where the Sun is at it's zenith in the sky, or the hand of the clock is at the top-center. Something to consider, I don't have any particular continuation for this idea.
erexere
maltedfalcon, it has changed quite a lot over the ears. Wood is more susceptible to mother nature than you think. Try your magic with this partial image of a much earlier version of that tree's base. I'd like to see you're outline recreated from this image:
I'm very hopeful that I'll soon have enough to piece this Vancouver possibility together. The elements Im working with are:
1. Lumbermans Arch = flower (pic), arm extending (verse)
2. 3 checker boards = sleeves and torso checkers (pic), simple roots (verse) are square"roots".
3. minitrain = legeater (pic) indirect yet strong reference through George Stephen.
4. 9 o'clock Gun = blob (pic), twice as many steps as the hour (verse).
5. Harding memorial = both sides of head and hands meeting (pic), Hard word (verse).
6. Totem poles =
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
maltedfalcon, it has changed quite a lot over the ears. Wood is more susceptible to mother nature than you think. Try your magic with this partial image of a much earlier version of that tree's base. I'd like to see you're outline recreated from this image:
You are correct the tree base has changed over time. but you can see in the past it even looked less like the flower. The green line is the trace of this photo (turned 90 degrees)
, the black line is the current trace and and the red is the flower.
erexere
Thanks. I accept your critique that t fails to match. I still wonder if the object is only to find sufficient likeness and not necessarily an exact match especially with the complicated contours of a rock face or a tree. I agree about the exactness of the fence of many of the Chicago and Cleveland markers, but i don't share your certainty of the necessity for exactness. I look at it as a matter of how could JJP made each drawing only precise enough to discern while avoiding unnecessary obfuscations.
(this post was approved by a glass of Pinot Noir...)
maltedfalcon
when in the found casques images we find exact matches. we can surmise that JJP had a methodology for transferring the exact image he wanted to his paintings. whether he traced it projected slides, or xeroxed things is immaterial, The point being he used extremely close likenesses in his painting.
To say he generalized to avoid obfuscations is a bit oxymoronic. you specify to avoid obfuscations, generalizing adds obfuscation.
Sounds more like you're thinking with your Pinot Noir...
erexere
You shouldnt see it as a matter of generalization, even though it is less specific in detail to aim only for simlarity. My point is to consider if the likeness is close enough and less like anything else in the region.
The plaque below looks like it has a round green jewel in the bottom centervbelow the text. Perhaps a similarity to the top centered opal or pearl in the hat.
maltedfalcon
Instead of assuming this one is different than the others perhaps we should just assume that is because it is the wrong region.
erexere
Well, don't swing your gavel lke the god of thunder just yet. you should adjust the size of the green ouline to 110% and rotate the lobe just to the right of top center by 100 degrees instead of 90. I think it fits much better.
Also, I really like the idea that a grey giant is tree. I'm not sure his Lumbermans Arch is really grey, but t does cast a shadow over the path it extends. A more playful thought is that a foot has an arch and a fairytale kind of giant would have feet with arches of this kind of proportion.
erexere
This Lumberman's Arch continues to intrigue me. The shape of the plaque is very close in shape to the man's face once flipped 180 degrees. The words themselves describe a previous structure, the Bowie Arch, located at Pender and Hamilton in downtown Vancouver, year 1912.
This site is also bound by Highway 7A. Given the directions of the streets forming an "X" compared to a north oriented view on a map and that Pender is a double wide street compared to Hamilton, I am beginning to suspect this is a good fit for the boxed rune shape on the man's lapel. Perhaps this is a
P
for Pender and a
7
for Highway 7A.
I should also remark the most interesting part in all this is that this is also the exact site recognized as the terminus of the CPR (which shares the same "owner" as the Legeater lamp).
erexere
BP wrote::
"(From BPreiss)
Very impressive work esp since the book is 20 years old. I think you deserve to know that you are correct about st. Louid,but not correct about the location.thanks for all your excellent work.
"
[reworking my post, it was a mess]
The above quote, everyone recognizes as a correspondence from Preiss to Johann via fox and recompiled by forest_blight. I think it appeared in this thread first. The reason why is that Johann's theory for St. Louis favored Image 9.
Image 9 has three favored locations as far as I can tell.
1) Montreal (most favored), the lat/long and legeater are the strongest support
2) St. Louis, lat/long isn't favored (bigmatty makes a strong case against), Trohn, Johann and others toy with this idea.
3) Vancouver (my choice), alternate lat/long "49/23", 9 is presented like a 6 and the 23 is a partial to 123, legeater's owner supports the CP Rail Montreal to Vancouver and miniature train theory.
I strongly note Preiss nevery said CITY of St. Louis. He says St. Louis is correct, and location is not correct. The automatic interpretation of this is to assume St. Louis is the city and the location in the city presented by Johann is incorrect. Oddly, St. Louis is misspelled as "st. louid" and so we must also assume he made an unintentional spelling error. The letter S is next to the letter D on the qwerty keyboard -an easy or common mistake, but it might also serve as a very subtle hint that this St. Louis is also the wrong St. Louis. An error is the simplest approach to bring attention to something and if Preiss had a reason to bring attention to this small alteration may have been his method to do so.
maltedfalcon
actually the best possibility for the blob I have ever seen was a fountain in St Louis. It was spot on.
If it werent for the legeater, my vote would be St. Louis.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
actually the best possibility for the blob I have ever seen was a fountain in St Louis. It was spot on.
If it werent for the legeater, my vote would be St. Louis.
Ah yes, I was just going to put that in my edit.
I'm trying to avoid image manipulation as much as possible. In accordance with the thematic style I think inherent in several images, I believe there's a fair amount of reversal and symmetry at work as well as some negative space outlines and very minor rotation of some elements within each image, such as a 90 degree or 180 degree rotation.
I think the blob compared to itself shows a large degree of symmetry. I'm comparing the cannon base, but only a partial view of it to the corresponding partial view of the blob. Looks to me that the only difference between the full blob and the symmetric (right half copy and pasted in horizontal reversed) blob have some strong similarities except for the pronounced difference in the small foot on the lower left side. I use a red arrow to suggest a small adjustment would give an exact match.
maltedfalcon
well sure, but with small adjustments, I can make it match all kinds of things.
I notice you also change the angle of the top layers sides. and remove the bottom spaces.
I don't think it matches very well at all.
erexere
Yes, i shrank the width to simulate the actual perspective given that the view on the gun is not directly from the side but from the rear at an angle on either side. Also I used the Vctoria one o'clock gun as my model which is the same for these purposes.
Stairs viewed at an angle look much shorter or steeper. Sorry to have expressed that poorly.
erexere
I'm trying to evaluate this boxed portion as a symbolic rebus.
I'm relating the 3-legged lamp combined with an early era military canon to a three sided cenotaph in honor of fallen soldiers.
Each of the 3 corners of the cenotaph has a large cement replica of a WW1 steel helmet. I think of this as a strong equivalent to the three heads eating the legs of the lamp.
maltedfalcon
Im totally lost by this one. why wouldn't he have just put a picture of the cenotaph.
your saying to solve this clue, one needs to first find the legeater lamp and then use it to solve an obscure symbolic rebus.
Im not clear, where is this cenotaph?
If it helps you find a casque great, but I think this idea is a true waste of time.
erexere
Cenotaph is in victory square in Vancouver.
This wiki page describes the helmets which are portrayed in giant size on each of the corners of the cenotaph,
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodie_helmet
Looks like a ringer for the helmet on the centaur.
I dunno, maybe this curved smile is here:
Maltedfalcon, I'm not sure which idea you're not buying. I think the main idea is that its not required to find the lamp in Montreal. I agree it is a match, but even so, it is still an assumption for us to say that means the casque s in Montreal. On some level we must define our attachment to an idea and everyone at some poi nt in their lives has learned that they can be mistaken despite the odds .
I think the Flower could represent a poppy. What do you think? If it does, then a thematic focus towards Remembrance Day is justified. Pursuing that idea might quickly lead one to the cenotaph of Victory SQUARE. Squares seem to be a large compo nent of image 9. There is even a square outlining the lamp and blob as well as the X and P/7. The lamp leg actually extends past the border. Could that be a clue for the gap one might see at the base of the 1980 installment f the Gate to the Northwest Passage scupture whch is a large square in one perspective and then a shape like the Atari logo in the other?.
erexere
I think the flower, which looks sufficiently close to the Lumberman's arch tree base outline, is intended to be a poppy.
Poppy makes sense since it's significance in Canada is to honor fallen soldiers. Remembrance Day in Canada is November 11th,
and is also referred to as "Poppy Day".
I was looking at the index fingers in image 9 and they both look like they are furled slightly to disguise the idea that if they were
both pointing up, that could be an indication of the number 11. The eleventh day of the eleventh month might be what that
is indicating.
I was looking at pictures of poppies and some other artists' versions. The bunched up orbs in the center of the JJP drawing
looked like coconuts or a pile of cannonballs. Apparently poppies have these budding orbs in their centers. Sorry I don't know
my flower anatomy so well, but I think this is a good fit.
Remembrance Day is the day which the cenotaph in Victory Square is intended, so if this is a poppy, it does justify that idea.
Also this looks like a strong consideration, this 1980 sculpture, the Gate to the Northwest Passage:
rookhunter
Well here's what i have found in Montreal so far. I am inclined to believe this image is like the Milwaukee treasure, where you have to walk throught the city.
The X
checkered pattern
Trying to find that strange shape next to the leg eater. could be a building or fixture.
erexere
I'm troubled by the idea that an "X" could match up to nearly anything. My best attempt to refine the idea is as follows,
1) the Roman numeral "10",
2) an intersection (wide street intersecting narrow street/path),
3) a sign in Stanley Park referring to the Native Tribe name for the land as "XwayXway",
4) or anything else that looks like an X and may be associated with a P and a 7, such as parking lot 7, or the variation from 180 rotation, PL, d7, or dL.
5) an X could mean "bones" as in skull and cross bones.
charris
I was under the impression that the X was this picture's substitute for a clock. The Roman numeral (10) is a match with the October (10) flower and birthstone.
erexere
Maybe the legeater and the blob really do emulate the Gate to the Northwest Passage sculpture. there is that same angle breaking the square at the base that the leg goes through and the blob is right at the spot where some buildings sit. It's looking quite good. The contour of the tree and the side angle view of the arch/gate is quite similar to the shape of the hands.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I think the main idea is that its not required to find the lamp in Montreal.
I think you meant Vancouver...
If that were true, than St.Louis seems to be a much better match then anything you have shown in Vancouver.
however group consensus came to be since we could not find a legeater lamp in St. Louis it must be Montreal.
obviously the legeater lamp is a real specific physical object. So similar objects or conceptually similar objects are not correct.
The legeater is prominent in the image. any solution that doesnt involve finding a legeater lamp is almost assuredly incorrect.
Its simple. if you find a legeater in vancouver, which is entirely possible, then Id think of vancouver as highly likely, without it I think your wasting your time.
erexere
maltedfalcon, I see you're logic is based on an unwillingness to assume the lamp is unique, is that correct?
I'm open to that idea, which makes sense, but it defies one simple consideration, that being the George Stephen connection to the CPR railroad. You've omitted that inference from your response. All considerations of St. Louis and Vancouver aside, why are you set on arguing against linking information? I think the lack of literary references in the Cleveland and Chicago solutions have fouled the picture path methodology. If we're going to move on and solve more casques I think we need to understand the literary, historical, and even mythological links.
maltedfalcon
I don't believe the lamp was unique, In that I suspect you could order that particular lamp from a particular foundry at a a particular time.
however, how many people ordered that lamp base and installed it is unknown.
perhaps many, perhaps the St Stephens club was the only purchaser...
or perhaps there was one in St Louis or Vancouver in the 1980s and it has since been removed. however if that was the case I would think it would have been noted or remembered. Since it seems to fulfill the role of an iconic object, it would seem BP thought it noteable wherever he saw it.
I'm not against literary references at all - he obviously used them in the verses. however I have never seen evidence of a literary reference more than one layer deep. moreover, I think the verses are very straightforward
Assuming the legeater in montreal refers to a person who had connections in vancouver so the casque must be in vancouver strains belief.
Isn't it more likely that the legeater image indicates nothing more than a location along the treasure path?
I am a firm believer that there is one methodology applied across all the casques. and so far none of the found casques have needed deep literary knowledge of obscure details to find them.
erexere
All that is very understandable. The Chicago and Cleveland verses didn't demonstrate literary material like some of the others and so I question any constraints that have been developed without that inclusion.
Yes the Vancouver Montreal stretch defies belief unless you consider a special case where the CPR specifically spans Canada from points Montreal and Vancouver.
Btw, i got a vintage map in the mail today. It clearly marks the location of the checkerboards I've been looking for. There are in a triangle bordered setting.
(I should've been more careful cutting this open, I cut the map by accident).
I outlined several of the park's tourist attractions,
1) Checkers: there are three patches of checkers on the man's robe and each estimate to have the same number of black checker squares, which is a good comparison to the three checkerboards here in Stanley Park. The configuration is almost exactly the same for both, having one board in the center and two boards shifted off center. Those in the park are turned at an angle making a cup shape \ _ /.
2) Miniature Railway: legeater lamp belongs to George Stephen, as does the No.374 of the CPR which is in miniature in this park.
3) Harding Memorial: Him of Hard word, this is an extremely good link to the verse.
4) Lumberman's Arch: It's a grey arm extending over a slender path and it's base is similar to the flower outline in the image.
5) Nine O'Clock Gun: This is also an arm, but it links to the interesting choice of words in verse "take twice as many east steps as the hour," the hour being "nine o'clock".
6) Hollow Tree: This is just a hunch, the hands along the wrists have approximately the shape of the tree. This might also be the grey giant.
7) Pauline Johnsons Monument/Gravesite: More than a few things about this site stir my interest. (will discuss more later)
8. Deadman's Island: A Natives tribal burial grounds with boxes in the trees containing the bones of warriors. Possibly why a big X is drawn inside a square.
As you can see, there's a lot of markers that can potentially fall into place and they account for almost all of the attractions of the park. I don't know how St. Louis or Montreal might be considered a better fit at this point. I've studied the St. Louis theory enough to see it's largely vacant as far as having any serious take on the verse or even a cohesive working of the image.
I still don't know what the 'v' could be. I'm uncertain on whether "east steps" is steps coming from the east or steps going east. I know I'm looking at a wind direction perspective, but why wouldn't Preiss simply say "steps east". There's no preservation of rhyme to utilize the reversal. I think it's clear that if we are taking steps, then it's not going to be through a heavy brush or very rugged terrain. My guess it's in a setting close to grass and near a trail.
Here's another comparison, again it's not in perfect match territory but this being one of Vancouver's most recognized buildings, I think it's very good in terms of gut feeling. The man's overall headshape, skinny neck and square filled torso area all work into this fit, The Harbour Center,
WhiteRabbit
BP's apparent confirmation of St Louis is pretty baffling. Cryptic references to New Orleans might be a possibility, but it would have been cruelly misleading. Although the legeater is compelling, it bothers me that there's nothing else in the image which ties it unambiguously to Montreal like a lat/long, rebus, etc.
I've previously suggested that the right finger in image 1 divides the column of squares into 3 & 7, as a confirmer for the 37 SF lat/long, and I've always wondered if there might be a similar square-counting clue in image 9. (Recycling an old link below; ignore the Milwaukee bit.)
It's pretty clear that there are 55 squares in each of the sleeves, making 110. The top half is more obscure, but there's a fairly clear pattern of 9 rows and 18 columns with each horizontal stroke of the collar covering 2 squares. Counting the number of squares in each row from the bottom up, taking out the collar, gives 18+18+16+16+10+10+8+8+4=108.
Maybe there's some zip code or road reference in there somewhere.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
2) Miniature Railway: legeater lamp belongs to George Stephen, as does the No.374 of the CPR which is in miniature in this park.
See this is the kind of thing I have a problem with
for # 2 in your theory to work, you have to
A. Find the Legeater in Montreal
B. Name the Building it is in front of
C. Understand that the Mount Stephens club is named after George Stephens
D. Know that George Stephens was the first President of the CPR
E. Among all the trains used by the CPR know that Canadian Pacific Railway Engine #374, is the engine made famous for pulling Canada's first transcontinental passenger train into Vancouver in the late 1880s.
F. Ignore that the real Engine #374 is on display at Yaletown's Roundhouse Community Centre. and center in on a miniature version at a park Across the country.
G. Ignore the fact that nothing in the image indicates Trains
H. Finally arrive at Stanley Park.
The words Silly, Obtuse, Improbable, and Nope, Come to mind...
But thats just my take on it.
I would also point out that the Miniature RailRoad was created in 1964 and has been expanded and revised many times since then, and we have no idea when the current miniature train engine 374 was put into service or what was running there in 1980.
erexere
I share your concerns, you raised all the important points, which is why I'll continue to look for the missing pieces. I suggested that Preiss could've seen a historic photo or painting hanging in the Pavillion or at the kiosk near the miniature train. From that he could've lifted the image. Preiss might've been researching Montreal for an idea, seen the Mount Stephen club, admired the lamp and then conceived of a transcontinental journey. Knowing, as you say, it would be silly to expect a person to first find the George Stephen connection, Preiss might've worked to put more distinct Vancouver clues in and maintained the Montreal ambiguities for the challenging reasons. Of course this level of intricacy isn't verifiable yet and it goes against the Cleveland and Chicago. I know your unwillingness to see the line I'm crossing, but that shouldn't hinder your view on the many other points.
The No.374 was and always has been the lead engine for the miniature train. I verified that it's significance was the reason for the 1964 installment to begin with. I can furnish quotes or citations if you require it.
If you can believe it, I think the bigger connecting visual clue is the box drawn around the legeater as a good match to the Gate of the Northwest Passage sculpture. It offers a wide range of visual possibilities: different angles on the city skyline, mountain range, and coastline resonate with various elements. The square is the most common feature of the checkerboard also. I would guess we need to take the most recognizable or known element and work the puzzle to a point of discovery of some small verifiable visual link. Those checkerboards off of pipeline road keep coming up in my mind as a good end result. Everything else in the park has a slightly more significant purpose. The checkerboards are very old and easy to overlook.
I imagine Preiss working through his tourism pamphlet and taking a picture of each or finding a riddling expression for his verse. "Arm" for a cannon. The base cross-section of the Lumberman's Arch tree combined with the shape of a poppy to give it a twist reference to a war memorial or the "fire-flower" reference to Deadman's Island. Pauline Johnson, an outstanding poet, wrote the Legend of Deadman's Isle. Her profile is chiseled in the rock, reminiscent of the book with the Sarmiento quote from Abroad in America with a profile of HG Wells on a large circular plaque, also like the plaque of Sam Hill found on the weight with roots extended in Corbett. Standing inside the shadowy middle of the giant Hollow Tree.
Something I found interesting was the Park pamphlet actually has a circled P on the spot with the checkerboards and number 7 is circled at the site with the Harding Memorial. The P and 7 just might be there to signify this checkerboard area just opposite the entrance to the miniature train. As an end result, this site could be why we have such an oblique reference to the legeater.
I found a link from the Jewish Museum and archives of BC with the title "Gift for President Harding - poem 'The Lost Lagoon' by Pauline Johnson".
The lost lagoon
It is dusk on the Lost Lagoon,
And we two dreaming the dusk away,
Beneath the drift of a twilight grey,
Beneath the drowse of an ending day,
And the curve of a golden moon.
It is dark in the Lost Lagoon,
And gone are the depths of haunting blue,
The grouping gulls, and the old canoe,
The singing firs, and the dusk and--you,
And gone is the golden moon.
O! lure of the Lost Lagoon,--
I dream to-night that my paddle blurs
The purple shade where the seaweed stirs,
I hear the call of the singing firs
In the hush of the golden moon.
Emily Pauline Johnson
erexere
Pauline Johnson. Poet. Lost Lagoon.
P. J.
what if the P 7 in the box with the X is actually a P with an inverted J?
Her Native name, Tekahionwake –pronounced: dageh-eeon-wageh, literally: 'double-life') might be used as far as taking the image of the two woman statues on either side of the Harding Memorial, putting them doubled into the image of the checkered man.
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The neighborhood's name comes from the "Bevo Mill building", a local landmark that was designed in the style of Dutch and German windmills for grinding grain. The Mill building was built in 1916
Unknown:
The vaulted ceilings of the foyer and Mill Room have groined arches which end in stone-carved gnomes, unusual in design and character. The gnomes were exhibited at the Paris Exhibition of 1898
Stephen King, Salem's lot wrote::
It settles in the way an old friend will settle into your favorite chair and take out his pipe and light it and then fill the afternoon with stories
Co-ords for St Louis are 45/73.
I guess this could be a 73...
...and this might be a reversed 73...
As for the 45, it's October, 10th month, and the X has been suggested for roman numeral 10. In which case, the V could be roman numeral 5, and the squiggle on the left a reversed 4.
* * * * * * * * *
I'm currently thinking about V2 for this image in St Louis.
There's a place called "Bevo Mill" which has a dutch connection...
Gnomes admire / Fays delight
...it has gnomes...
And it's on Morgan Ford Rd...Morgan le Fay...? (St Louis also has a Lafayette Park, with cannons that were used for the attack on Moultrie.)
* * * * *
The Chancery Building on the grounds of the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis was designed by an architect called
Sarmiento
.
If Forest Park was the place where jewels abound (jewel box), perhaps you could say that Tower Grove Park is about 15 streets or rows down to the ground.
Through all this flow'r-embroider'd grove,
Where elves and fays delight to rove
You can reach it by heading up Morgan Ford from Bevo Mill.
* * * * *
...as the sound of friends fills the afternoon hours...
erexere
Like your nod to the King. nice to see you thinking about this. i thought you gave it up.
erexere
I still think this reminds me of the head and hat.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I still think this reminds me of the head and hat.
Yes it reminds me of it too, it has similarities,
So thats why we know it is wrong, since if it was correct it would be an exact match like a tracing
as are the other site confirmers in the found casque images.
But this is too thick and has to high of an arch.
So not a match.
erexere
We've already been over this, maltedfalcon, where you said the columns in Cleveland were an exact match and then we took a closer look and the distortions were VERY noticeable. Another case involved some debate over the Spearman and Bowman in Chicago, again there are clear distortions as evidence that JJP is a capable enough artist that he didn't need to resort to tracings. All that matters is that the visual art offers us to recognize the essential markers.
erexere
About the legeater- place yourself in Stanley Park thinking how to construct your collection of clues. You've decided to bury the casque a certain number of steps west of the center of a giant checkerboard. There is a notable miniature train feature nearby. The No.374 is a replica of a historically relevant journey of a CPR train from Montreal where the owner and president of that train company has a well known home on the historic register: the Mount Stephen Club. Nice lamp. Nice obscure yet completely pertainant clue. Lets mix it with a blob and orient it to fit the gap of the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture to honor George Vancouver.
This sculpture offers too much to be disregarded. I've closely cropped the window inside the frame to show how the break in the bottom is highly consistent with the placement of the legeater where it breaks through the frame of it's square. A range of backgrounds are available depending on where you stand to look through this gate. One can even gaze in the direction of a large island called
Bowen Island
northwest of this site. Notice the cluster of buildings to the lower right corner. I don't know what this looked like in 1982, perhaps a blob match was more evident in the skyline back then.
Here the arrows originate from the location of the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture. Red points directly north to Stanley Park and Blue points north and west to Bowen Island.
Its tough to spot but the ruffled outline of the top right side of the hat closely resembles the mountain range contours in the large image of the Gate.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
This sculpture offers too much to be disregarded.
Without a legeater in vancouver, your case is out and out weak,
and The sculpture is similar to the arch in Pic 11, It's exact and I mean exact match was found in Boston
They lined up perfectly with lines and breaks. Except the arch was built years after the book came out.
I think your frame is like that. Too many of your vancouver clues are "similar" or this object leads to a clue that...
Thats not the way it worked in the found casques.
however, find a legeater or a casque in vancouver and I will believe.
erexere
About Boston, do you agree that the verse has anything to do with the Midnight Ride poem? What do you have to say about the proposed "2C" site across the street from the Sommerset building? I thought the mention of the Sommerset Warship in the poem makes an interesting case for looking into methods that involve a deeper understanding of the elements. Chicago and Cleveland were detached from that sort of strategy.
maltedfalcon
Well Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
certainly indicates something like that
I thought though the Mother's rest area basically fulfilled everything you needed for that verse.
without needing to resort to layers upon layers of associations.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
Well Eighteenth day
Twelfth hour
Lit by lamplight
certainly indicates something like that
I thought though the Mother's rest area basically fulfilled everything you needed for that verse.
without needing to resort to layers upon layers of associations.
+1
erexere
Like? Is it a Longfellow poem reference or not? If so, does the literary reference serve any purpose at all?
In my attempt to explore the notion, I found the most tension in the poetic account to be where it mentions the warship Somerset. The historic Somerset building has two large letter S's on the gate facing the park we refer to as the 2C's. Yes, this puts a new spin on things, but hardly resembles a layers upon layers situation. What this is identifying is a reference, giving the reference a good moment of attention and then looking up at the gate of a building which has the same name, all the letters to be exact, SOMERSET.
Does Chicago or Cleveland contain a poet reference? If so, has it been established that there is no associative work to be done?
Lobbing such a constraint into the fray with all the remaining casques seems unjustified if the content and purpose of the working samples are a poor representation of the whole.
maltedfalcon
Well think about Chicago,
M and B referenced Mozart and Beethoven.
There was a reference to seeking the sounds of Music.
However no deep relationship between Mozart and Beethoven and Music existed.
Mozart and Beethoven were signs on a wall
and the music was a nearby stage.
So while yes I think that might be a reference to Paul Revere, it isnt neccesarily a reference to the longfellow poem or any deeper than hey look Boston!
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
So while yes I think that might be a reference to Paul Revere, it isnt neccesarily a reference to the longfellow poem or any deeper than hey look Boston!
I think of it differently, it isn't necessarily a reference to Paul Revere, but the poem from which those words of the hour and day were popularized. Like the M and B were glimpse references to the full name inscriptions Mozart and Beethoven, I think the lines "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour" are a similar glimpse reference to the full poetic piece. M and B represented a site location in Chicago. It seems the best thing to extract from the poem in terms of a site location is something callled Somerset.
forest_blight
Why Somerset?
erexere
In all of the poem, Somerset (the name of the Warship) happens to also be the name of the building that is across the street from the 2C's.
Hirudiniforme
Hirudiniforme wrote::
rookhunter
Going to revive this one from the dead a bit. Here is what I have come up with recently, trying to verify.
The biggest problem I see with this one is the visual confirmers infront of the former Mount Stephen club. Where does one dig? Did BP actually bury it on the grounds of a historic building? Do the clues lead away from the building (reverse image confimration)?
So I looked around a bit and found that the parking lot behind the club has dirt strips or planters running on Mountain and Maisonneuve. They do form a "V". I also noticed a building type of structure that I could only guess is a cooling unit.
"In summer...whirring noise.."
I am working on verifying the line about the arm and the line about rhapsodic mans soil.
I think the hotel next to the club used to be a music club of some kind. Hopefully this leads somewhere.
maltedfalcon
major points for using the legeater!
Hirudiniforme
"...a cooling unit. In summer...whirring noise.." Kinda cool.
That just made me think... I wish I had to use some air conditioning right now. It's been cold for too long.
I'm ready for summertime soft ground.
maltedfalcon
Ill even suggest that the building accross the street from (the now defunct) Mount Stephens Club, could be called a grey giant.
and the alley you suggest could be the narrow path has a hallway or bridge or "arm" of one building connecting
the other. viewable on google maps street view
BTW the address of the mount stephens club is 1440 Drummond st. Montreal CA
WhiteRabbit
shecrab wrote::
The latitude and longitude of Montreal are 45N, 73W. Nowhere in Image 9 do these numbers appear. Nowhere. St. Louis' Lat/long is 38N 90W. I can't come up with either of those numbers either!
The numbers I can see are these: 39 (a bit iffy--faint, but in the hair), 35, 67, 76 and 77. Putting them together to try to come up with either a St. Louis or a Montreal location, I can't! But if you input these into Google earth, you can come up with a location:
Baltimore Maryland.
It's a good point. The most obvious starting place for these puzzles is the lat/long. And if you look at this picture for lat/longs, the clearest possibilities are: 76, here...
...and here...
...with a possible 75 pairing...
...and 39 here...
...giving Baltimore. The 39 could be a possible 37 for Montreal, but it's more like a 9 than a 7, and there isn't an obvious 45.
Baltimore looks like the typical kind of coastal city usually chosen. The image is dominated by a black and gold check pattern which recalls the Maryland flag:
There's also the Marigold, a shortened form of "Mary's Gold".
I've never looked at Baltimore so I'm currently taking an open-minded glance through the verses to see if anything jumps out.
maltedfalcon
45.5081° N, 73.5550° W
Montreal, Coordinates
In the pictures you just posted I see
73 and 46
WhiteRabbit
I also remembered that BP confirmed Canada, so I guess it does have to be Montreal for this image.
I haven't given up on Percy Walters...trying to lure in some Montrealers on this forum but no luck yet.
hxxp://detectionduquebec.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=354
Trouble is, people in general are just so goddam lazy and unadventurous. :P
erexere
I have some new details to share soon about the Vancouver BC spot. I'm trying to find a good image of the outdoor storage closet for the checker pieces. Looking from the road you can only see a tiny piece of it through the trees. It looks like it's about 18-20 steps away from the giant checkerboards. I turned to see the other side of the road from that spot and it had this:
I'm not familiar with that kind of sign. Does anyone know what it means?
erexere
This is simply badass.
The amphitheater beneath the shelter has the dimensions I've outlined with red lines, only goes 3 high so it's not an exact match to those drawn on the man's decollage. The shoulder lines really fit the roof pattern well and the three giant checkerboards are directly beneath it which ALSO matches the image in relative abstract.
Here's a different angle on the shelter, amphitheater, checkerboards:
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
45.5081° N, 73.5550° W
Montreal, Coordinates
In the pictures you just posted I see
73 and 46
Actually falcon...your 46 could as easily be a 45, with the already in place outline of the flower filling in the bottom of my 5 and making it your 6.
erexere
Pretty exciting. This checkerboard area in Stanley Park Vancouver BC is directly adjacent to the parking lot that takes you to the miniature train No.374 of the CPR which is a very good associating reference to Lord Stephens, which directly associated with our precious legeater lamp.
I'm even excited to see the usual criticism that may or may not follow.
Seriously, how do these images work? We know with image 4 the columns and wall are plainly seen as one would experience at the entrance to the Grecean Gardens. I think that's a sure sign you are very close to a casque. It works that way in image 12 with the fence near the center of the image. The sloped shoulders and steps and checkers all work here in Vancouver.
wk
erexere wrote::
I have some
new
details to share soon about the Vancouver BC spot. I'm trying to find a good image of the outdoor storage closet for the checker pieces. Looking from the road you can only see a tiny piece of it through the trees. It looks like it's about 18-20 steps away from the giant checkerboards. I turned to see the other side of the road from that spot and it had this:
I'm not familiar with that kind of sign. Does anyone know what it means?
According to Ontario traffic manual, it (WA-8) warns vehicular traffic of road termination.
... if only this puzzle was as easy.
wk
erexere wrote::
I have some new details to share soon about the Vancouver BC spot. I'm trying to find a good image of the outdoor storage closet for the checker pieces. Looking from the road you can only see a tiny piece of it through the trees. It looks like it's about 18-20 steps away from the giant checkerboards. I turned to see the other side of the road from that spot and it had this:
I'm not familiar with that kind of sign. Does anyone know what it means?
According to Ontario traffic manual, it (WA-8) warns vehicular traffic of road termination.
... if only this puzzle was as easy.
erexere
Thankyou wk! I hope I can make it easy for all of you to one day open up a hyperlink of a photo of another found casque...
erexere
Bringing this back, since I discovered a
new
photo from 1967. The lines seem to indicate a better similarity although it looks very off as a comparison. A chunk has been taken out to make it more concentric?
The Lumberman's Arch and plaque, note the plaque was moved from the tree itself to a spot below it's base,
erexere
Bringing this back, since I discovered a new photo from 1967. The lines seem to indicate a better similarity although it looks very off as a comparison. A chunk has been taken out to make it more concentric?
The Lumberman's Arch and plaque, note the plaque was moved from the tree itself to a spot below it's base,
erexere
I explored some of the visuals to this in my previous cask 9 posts. Siwash Rock looks like the collar outline. I haven't found an exact match, but the lines inside the collar area that outline his neck look like they fit the main road pipeline and the small part that branches into the parking lot on the way to the Miniature railway. His hands are together and may be indicating prayer. The Trail and Shore book of poems and history on Stanley Park describes the custom of "the morning's sermon" as the reference for playing checkers on Sundays since the park had a rule allowing no other games to be played on Sundays. He has three distinct checkered areas on his robe and there are exactly three giant checkerboards. His shoulders fit the perspective of looking at the shelter above the checkerboards and bleachers as seen from the roadway. I'd call that a 99% match. I'm currently feeling sure of the Stanley Park location but I have to say I can't see where exactly to stand and which direction to count steps to the spot. I'm confused on whether "east steps" are different than "steps east", since in a different context, such as when talking about wind direction, an "east wind" is actually blowing in west.
Verse 10:
It looks like Preiss simply found a way to put as many tourist markers from the map into his image and verse. I scanned my 1976 map of Stanley Park, not much has changed, except I don't think current maps mention the checkerboards(
hxxp://s11.photobucket.com/user/erexere/media/1976MapSP.jpg.html
).
In the shadow
In the shadows
, poem by
Pauline Johnson
, Native Indian poet whom has the only gravestone in Stanley Park.
Of the grey giant
The Hollow Tree
, distinctive for being the oldest and biggest tree, although it's a mere shadow of it's former self.
Find the arm that
Extends over the slender path
Lumberman's Arch
, a section of tree extends over a path smaller than the main path which circles around Stanley Park.
In summer
You'll often hear a whirring sound
Miniature Train
, operates only in the summer and goes “around in circles”.
Cars abound
Although the sign
Nearby
Speaks of Indies native
The natives still speak
Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.
Harding Monument
, a president's speech is honored by Kiwanis (native named organization: “[Harding] spoke words that are worthy of record in lasting granite.” (see page 73 for full quote)
Take twice as many east steps as the hour
Or more
Nine O'Clock Gun
, = 18 steps+
From the middle of one branch
Of the v
Look down
And see simple roots
In rhapsodic man's soil
Checkerboards
, checkerboards (one in the center with two branching off at angles forming a V). The pieces for these boards are kept in a nearby storage closet and were made from cross sections of old-fashioned irrigation pipe made of wood, and filled with resin. Like roots are for bringing water and nutrients from the soil to feed plantlife, these pieces were repurposed from pipes used to move water.
Or gaze north
Toward the isle of B.
Girl in Wetsuit
Gaze at bronze statue on a small isle of rock to the north of Stanley Park. Unveiled in 1972, she was inspired by the famous
Dutch
Copenhagen mermaid and commissioned by Douglas
Brown
. In the Chicago example, the first letter hints were attached to minor elements of the landscape, Mozart and Beethoven etched into a wall, and Lincoln's statue. The Girl in Wetsuit (Bikini) is similar to the Chicago setup.
I'm hoping the odd shaped portion of the hands is a fit to the spot. Turn the page upside down. There's a slanted wall along the bleachers that kind of fits.
Deuce
Just throwing this out there for interpretation...
Turn the image 90 degrees left. Notice the big number '3' in the center. Anyone's research yield a three reference anywhere?
Hirudiniforme
i do see it clear as day... only three stand watch?
Deuce
Don't know. Been searching locations for possibilities. Don't think it's a lat/long reference. There's gotta be more to it. Lots of three's in the verses.
Deuce
Maybe the reason the legeater's leg goes out of the box???
Deuce
Also found a '2' that I haven't seen mentioned. Let me know if this was already found. I haven't read all 10 million posts yet.
rookhunter
I have been doing research on image 9 and I only saw this mentioned a a couple of times in the whole long thread.
The leg eater and the "blob" are both in a golden square. As an alternate to my theory I submit that those two clues are not immediate area visual clues but rather general area visual clues like the Chicago bow hunter statue and fountain statue. This would narrow down the Montreal treasure to the area of The Golden Square Mile. It would make sense that an area known for luxurious houses would have have a lamp post from one of its more historic houses as a clue.
So, I am now searching the houses and mansions of Montreal's Golden Square mile in hopes of finding the blob. The blob looks like part of a house or the dome of a large one. Maybe an architect would recognize it.
rookhunter
Deuce wrote::
Just throwing this out there for interpretation...
Turn the image 90 degrees left. Notice the big number '3' in the center. Anyone's research yield a three reference anywhere?
It just hit me. "him of Hard word in three Vol."
There is a rock in Montreal with a plaque or "sign" called Hochelaga rock. It references Jacques Cartier and his contact with the Iroquois indians. Jacques made 3 trips to North America.
WhiteRabbit
People are making some bizarre leaps of logic recently.
Three volumes are not three trips.
December is not Highway 12.
These are the kind of random two-hop connections that have oft been criticised in others.
rookhunter
WhiteRabbit wrote::
People are making some bizarre leaps of logic recently.
Three volumes are not three trips.
December is not Highway 12.
These are the kind of random two-hop connections that have oft been criticised in others.
Ill admit the 3 Vol is not straight forward but I thought a majority agreed highway 12 was "in December". If not what is it?
WhiteRabbit
rookhunter wrote::
I thought a majority agreed highway 12 was "in December". If not what is it?
Pass two friends of octave
In December
Wright Brothers Day gets my vote.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Brothers_Day
rookhunter
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Pass two friends of octave
In December
Wright Brothers Day gets my vote.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Brothers_Day
That certainly makes more sense. Sorry Rabbit.
Hirudiniforme
I don't know that I would call it a bizarre leap of logic, but I am aware that it may very well refer to the Wright Brothers Day. That would totally make sense because it cues you in to Wright Brothers Memorial and the 'wing'. But, you are likely passing it on Highway 12, also known as Virginia Dare Trail, cueing a person in to Virginia Dare and the statue base. We already assign numbers to the months to get the birth flower and stone...
Just saying, it takes just as many steps to get to WBD as it does HWY12, one. December = 12. Come to think about it, how many steps does it take to get the Washington Baum Bridge out of "Ride the Man of oz?"
MAD
My first post here. But i'm ready for anything
The Montreal theory for Image 9 is what made me join the board (from Canada, QC). But I also like treasure hunting in general, and the history/folklore that can be learned while searching for answers.
This said, here is what I want to add to the speculations around Image 9:
- The Legeater has been found in Montreal, which is in Quebec : the Leg going out of the frame around the Legeater reminds me of the letter Q as in Quebec. Not many places in North America start with the letter Q.
- The checkered desing reminds me of Formula 1 racing, there is a Grand Prix in Montreal, the only one in North America in 1982 " the Secret " was released in 1982, year of the tragic death of Canadian/Quebecer F1 racer Gilles Villeneuve (May 8 1982) (If the book was released AFTER the event I am not sure of that [EDIT : 1982 events are out of question since the book was written before 1982]
Here is what I tought at first when there was a link between Image 9 and Verse 2 :
At the place where jewels abound (Maybe Mount Royal, as in royal jewels)
Fifteen rows down to the ground (Indication to know where to dig, see next idea about the Mount Royal cross on which you can count 15?? rows?? maybe!)
In the middle of twenty-one (there is the letter T in the middle of the word Twenty-one ... T like a cross, Mount Royal has a very well known Cross at its summit) Take a look at the cross, it's design reminds me of the X on the left side of Image 9...
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... t_Real.jpg
From end to end ( hints us at counting rows on the cross)
Only three stand watch ( no idea )
As the sound of friends ( Tam Tam du Mount Royal (previously mentionned))
Fills the afternoon hours ( Tam Tam again )
Here is a sovereign people ( Quebec people reference, the sovereignty referendum was held in 1980 not so long ago at the time of writing, still fresh in memory (even tho it was lost...but I think it could still make sense ))
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
Gnomes admire
Fays delight
The namesakes meeting ( Quebec's national holiday is the " St-Jean-Baptiste " a national holiday named after a Saint, Could also be refering to Mont Royal / Montreal which are the same word spelled differently in ancient french. (Old french Réal in Montréal means Royal nowadays)
Near this site.
Deuce
I personally like the Montreal Olympic Stadium for the leg in the pic. What do you think?
MAD
Deuce wrote::
I personally like the Montreal Olympic Stadium for the leg in the pic. What do you think?
It could be both a reference to the stadium and the letter Q!
erexere
I think its a stretch to say the stadium is being symbolically referenced or reinforced by the Stephens lamp. what would be a reason for that connection? Path specific? Considering the design is just one small portion of the puzzle, its not necessarily the largest factor in locating the casque.
I really like the Q for Quebec idea. I also like the likeness to the Gates of the Northwest Passage. Can it be both? I think so, since its a simple construction from two relatively famous sites. The rectangle with the slanted break fits the metal Vancouver sculpture. Fitting the leg portion of the metal lamp scupture in Montreal seems to be almost secondary, and together form a straight font shaped letter Q. The pixelated blob is still a mystery. My thoughts are it could be a partially obscured or redacted train engine.
I know folks are unwilling to view these puzzles in way that avoids complications, but here the question is about identifying landmarks in both Montreal and Vancouver and figuring out what connects the two. Lord Stephens Transcanadian railway literally connects the two.
MAD
erexere wrote::
I really like the Q for Quebec idea. I also like the likeness to the Gates of the Northwest Passage. Can it be both? I think so, since its a simple construction from two relatively famous sites. The rectangle with the slanted break fits the metal Vancouver sculpture. Fitting the leg portion of the metal lamp scupture in Montreal seems to be almost secondary, and together form a straight font shaped letter Q. The pixelated blob is still a mystery. My thoughts are it could be a partially obscured or redacted train engine.
I know folks are unwilling to view these puzzles in way that avoids complications, but here the question is about identifying landmarks in both Montreal and Vancouver and figuring out what connects the two. Lord Stephens Transcanadian railway literally connects the two.
Blob might also be a UFO landing pad ! Also note the importance of the year 1967
1967 =
- year of the first Grand Prix in Montreal: checkered pattern reference
- Year of the opening of the St-Paul UFO Landing pad in Alberta Canada (Blob object is a UFO landing pad ? :
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_landin ... ttractions
- Expo 67 of course
- Charles DeGaulle and his famous " Vive le Québec Libre " political incident about Quebec Sovereignty (a hint at the Sovereing people of verse 2 ? )
Also, to link montreal and vancouver : Canada's motto is in Latin "a mari usque ad mare" (From sea to sea) (reference to "From end to end" of verse 2 ? )
Maybe the way to casque 9 is a very long one ! Across Canada from Montreal to Vancouver with a stop in Alberta ! And maybe elsewhere too.
erexere
The blob is a UFO...
I dont see anything that really complements the landing pad, or the necessity to focus on 1967. The theme of the checker pattern could be applied to the grand prix or many other things. A diagonal motif seems to be the best derivative of a checker pattern. From corner to corner is almost the same as from sea to sea or end to end, dont you think?
I cant relate to the verse 2 interpretation since I find it goes best with image 7, New Orleans.
Verse 10 has a line about finding the middle of branch of the "v". Thats a letter put together by two diagonal strokes, \ and /. I've wondered what lower case v means. Variation? Valley? Vendor? Victory? Who knows. V is often used to describe somethings shape. In connection with something having branches, it seems more to do with a tree or a path.
MAD
erexere : Indeed 1967 is probably just a pretty busy year for Montreal and nothing more for us here. For the Blob : UFO's are never reliable! I must have been too much of an X-Files fan. It looks a bit like an old Atari graphic.
"Corner to corner" would fit I think, but I don't know how to link it to anything else.
I will read the verse 10 to see what I can find about that "V" thing you mentionned.
So the only thing that could remain from what I posted before is the "Legeater forming Q letter when combined with the frame around it" theory !
Back to the boards !
erexere
MAD, to comment on your verse 2 breakdown, it looks like you have good ideas where you make associations that may well work if thats the right image-verse fit. Once you go all-in and tie things together, it might look like you have a solve like Chicago or Cleveland. My issue with that method is it assumes what we know about previous solves is true in its application and also that Preiss used that specific framework in the other locations. I think he designed each destination according to what opportunities were provided and he evolved his process to include some variety.
MAD
erexere wrote::
MAD, to comment on your verse 2 breakdown, it looks like you have good ideas where you make associations that may well work if thats the right image-verse fit. Once you go all-in and tie things together, it might look like you have a solve like Chicago or Cleveland. My issue with that method is it assumes what we know about previous solves is true in its application and also that Preiss used that specific framework in the other locations. I think he designed each destination according to what opportunities were provided and he evolved his process to include some variety.
Yeah erexere, very good point. Preiss could have done it in a very different way for the other destinations.
About Image 9 : I noticed the hat of the character has some bumps in it that could look like a landscape or something else... when you rotate the image and concentrate on the dark part only, it looks like the profile of a monkey! A monk with a monkey on his hat. I tought about the Monkland neighborhood when I saw that, named after James Monk.
you know : The namesakes meeting
EDIT : here is the image of the monkey profile (having too much fun I think)
:
Uploaded with
ImageShack.us
erexere
erexere wrote::
Some presumptions about long journeys between point A and point B leave very little word or visual clues to describe the requisite components that are needed to locate an exact spot.
Of course it's always dependent on the given layout and surroundings and each situation may well be different or unique.
Here's some examples to consider, try to think of each A, B, C, or D each needing a line or two of verse or an image clue to coordiate a given opportunity for X:
The last of these should look familiar, it's my theory for Houston.
I will have to take a long look to see that monkey for myself.
Mainly my point is we are limiting ourselves depending on how we estimate Preiss and to what formula, if any, we think all the puzzles adhere. I think there is a formula, but that doesnt mean things wont escalate in difficulty or each location wont present a dramatically different location method. By location method, I'm referring to the variety of ways a specific spot may be determined. I illustrated some basic examples in the methodology thread:
erexere
MAD, that monkey reminds me of the Lincoln profile in the rocks of Image 1.
The process of word association from seeing what looks like a monkey and then attaching it to something with the word "monk" is where we almost always go wrong. I'm no just bashing you're idea. It's definitely worth noting since all of our other theories might not pan out. My feeling is there's a mountain range that resembles the rippled portion of the hat.
In verse 10, I've linked the word "Hard" with the name of president "Harding" who visited Canada and gave a speech, which was rewarded by a memorial with a portion of his speech engraved in granite, dedicated by the Natives. In that case, there's a little word play going on, since the -ing suffix must be attached to make Hard into Harding. I think that's a little different than getting Monk out of Monkey.
MAD
Erexere, the important part here is the monkey (or anything else that it represent and that we did not identify yet), I know the "monk" thing is far fetched. I just can't believe that the form is a mountain or land (mainly because of the shape of the summit), that's why I'm trying to find something else. Also, I never tought you were bashing, always feel free to express yourself. I prefer honesty!
erexere
I think it's possible to work all of these puzzles by first focusing on the big obvious things. The details will matter only when you're on the right track. There could literally be a monkey element to factor in, but you're going to have to put the idea on hold while you first gain perspective, find a spot that holds major significance and take it from there. I suppose most people think that's the "legeater" lamp in front of the Mount Stephen Club. I think that's an unfortunate assumption. I agree the lamp is spot on, but there's been absolutely nothing firmly established as to where to go from there or from where one came to get to that spot. If it is a mere breadcrumb on a path, then it's doing a terrible job behaving like one. It could be we haven't had enough feet on the ground to investigate the area or important features to this puzzle are no longer intact. Instead of waiting for that assumed approach to play out, I think it's a natural question to ask 'why?' should the leg of this lamp in front of the Mount Stephen Club be important? What reason would a person have to go to the Mount Stephen Club in the first place and then to discover a lamp's leg (at torso height) matches the design on the robed man's lapel? I think it's a detail of some importance, but also one that wasn't intended to be discovered or necessary with respect to finding the Montreal location.
The idea of a lamp leg is already discernable in the image. I think it's importance in at least one respect references an idiomatic usage. As displayed on the chest, it would be like a badge or medal of some sort of achievement. The idioms using the word leg are "leg up", "last legs", or this seems the best, "a leg to stand on," a justifiable or logical basis for defense. The man in the robe looks contemplative. His robe is covered in checkers. Is he playing a game of checkers or chess?
maltedfalcon
MAD wrote::
Yeah erexere, very good point. Preiss could have done it in a very different way for the other destinations.
While that is possible. It is important to remember that at this point 100% of the found casques resolve the exact same way.
Everything else is pure supposition.
Egbert
My 2 cents on this Image. This guy has been pegged for Montreal, St. Louis, Maryland, and a couple of other sites. However, it is pretty clear to me that this is New York. The evidence:
1. This thread is 100 pages long because of all of the possibilities. I have tried to go back and find the image, but somewhere, someone posted the striking resemblance between the man's right hand and the Statue of Liberty's right hand holding the torch. I think it was Malted Falcon or Forest Blight. He is definitely doing something with his hands, and that is the only logical explanation that I can see. It is a dead match.
2. This is the Dutch picture. "The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes: A cloud of shining, shifting smoke." The roman numeral X stands for October, the 10th month. The Dutch came and settled in New York. It was originally called "New Amsterdam, New Netherlands." "Netherlands" is where the Dutch are from, and it literally means "low lands."
3. Byron Preiss was born in Brooklyn. He died while vacationing in East Hampton, New York, which is not that far away. It would be impossible for me to believe that a book based on immigration would not have a treasure buried in the same State as Ellis Island. The book itself talks about the immigration to New York. (Just for kicks, check out Three Mile Harbor near East Hampton. It looks a lot like the neckline in Image 9.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/9b0hc
).
4. Looking at coordinates, there is a 73 in his hair that is pretty clear. That could be a coordinate for NY. The musical note/number in the flower could also be a 40, which gets you to NY. You could also see a 39 in the hair on his forehead.
That's what I have for now. I was trying to match the top right of his hat to a coastline, but there are millions of ins and outs in the New York area coastline. The dogleg - still unknown. I know we found one in Montreal, but guys and gals - this is the New York picture!
There are many parts of this Image which are still unexplained. I think the large part of the brown collar - the one on the left side of the Image - is definitely a clue to something. There is an S or a 5 in his hair, near the 73. Even the lines on his face could be outlining something. The "runes" (for lack of a better word) near the roman numeral X obviously mean something. I initially thought that is refers to golf. The left symbol looks like a flag, and the right symbol could indicate hole number 7. "Dogleg" is a golf term. Just thought I'd put all this out there. I think the Canadian casque is Image 12, and is in Vancouver, for what that's worth.
WhiteRabbit
Egbert wrote::
The Dutch came and settled in New York. It was originally called "New Amsterdam, New Netherlands." "Netherlands" is where the Dutch are from, and it literally means "low lands."
Unknown:
Consider a group of those frugal Lowland Dwarves, the Alven, hovering, invisible, and observing in economic agony while their old friends the Canarsie tribe traded Manhattan Island for a handful of trinkets! (Could it be that they believed Peter Minuit's glass baubles possessed the same worth as the Alven's Treasure-Stone?)
Unknown:
The Hurons competed with the Iroquois for the Dutch and French fur trade.
The introduction mentions this connection...
...though having said that, it also mentions the Canadian connection.
I like the 39/40/73 coords.
As for the hand, I'm not sure...the finger is similar, but, that's what a crooked finger looks like.
In a head-to-head Statue of Liberty contest, Image 12 surely has a better claim.
I still like the Chrysler as well...
...and Shore Road Park.
Then there's the incontrovertible dogleg.
But, Image 9 wins on coords. I'll give you that. ;)
erexere
My feeling is the legeater represents a few things: 1) Lord Stephens close connection to something, 2) the foot of something tall (long), and 3) a cougar eating a ruminant.
The blob doesn't seem directly relevant to the legeater in Montreal, so it poses another layer of complication and I really have no idea what it represents. The border around the bulk of the legeater is very similar to the Vancouver sculpture, Gateway to the Northwest Passage, while displaying that similarity in the slanted break where the leg crosses the border of the square, (this assumes the Latitude of 49 rather than 46 and a Longitude of 123).
Edit: maybe the blob resembles something about the H.R. MacMillan Space Centre next to the the Vancouver Museum and the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture. H.R. MacMillan has something to do with a famous tourist spot called Cathedral Grove.
rookhunter
Let's not forget the Legeater on the painting is in a golden square and that legeater was found in a notable house inside an area called the Golden Square Mile. That's just too big a coincidence.
forest_blight
I thought carefully about your New York suggestion, Egbert. I like this theory a lot, but I am not sure I agree with it. Still...
Let's consider only the latitude and longitude information, with only Montreal and New York City as contenders. The 74th parallel splits Manhattan into two parts, and is an "enclosing" longitude for Montreal, so we can expect there to be a 74. Sure enough:
Now there is ambiguity about the 73 vs. 75. If we find a 75, this would be evidence in favor of New York, since 75 is not an enclosing longitude for Montreal. Unfortunately, there is a very clear 73 in our guy's hair:
...and no evidence of a 75. So if this is New York, the longitudes would rule out some places we have strongly considered before (Verazzano, Ellis Island, Battery Park...). So in choosing between Montreal and New York, we may have to rely on latitudes. The enclosing latitudes for Montreal are 45 and 46, and for New York they are 40 and 41. I can't see evidence of a 45, but one could argue that there is a 46:
On the other hand, this same image could be the 40, and you could argue that this could be a 41:
Egbert
FB, you are leaving out the 39 in his hairline on the forehead. That is very clearly a number there. If that is a coordinate, then that kicks out Montreal.
Plus, I think the intro to the book itself makes this the NY picture. It's the Dutch. It's the Netherlands. It's the Opal. It's the month of October - roman numeral X. The only reason I see to link this to Canada is that legeater lamp that someone happened to run across. Nothing else really suggests Canada. For all we know, John Jude Palencar ran across that legeater in some picture, and decided to use it in this Image to symbolize something else. I immediately thought of some type of rebus, like "dog leg," but it could be naming something that we have not figured out yet.
It appears that all of the Images have some type of site confirmer in the Image, but we have yet to find one here. The legeater could be one, but the Montreal lamp is probably not unique. We just haven't found another one yet in NY.
I am not thrilled with saying those runes are the number 74. It just seems like "too much trouble" to do that to a number, and have it only mean 74. I think those symbols mean something else. As for the Statue of Liberty's hands, I see it is not an exact match now, but maybe John Jude Palencar did not have as good a picture to copy from at the time. It IS pretty much an exact match if you only look up to the first knuckle on each finger.
WhiteRabbit, I see the NY references, but those are also not exact. The Chrysler building in the waves is a stretch. You did not mention the bird on the Chrysler Building, which also is close, but not exact. I hadn't heard about Shore Road Park before, but it looks like a backwards map. I don't think BP would go that far (although didn't he do that in Image 1? I don't remember now). Liberty's face is the main thing in that Image which makes everyone think of NY. However, I go back to the book's intro, which I believe talks about the Russian immigration. I can easily see the Russians landing in Vancouver. That part of Canada is near Russia. The onion domes are probably a Russian Orthodox Church. Erexere, you are probably closest to Vancouver - go take a trip and look around!
Sorry if I am going over old clues, but there are just too many pages to review these days, and I have been away for awhile. Also, it probably helps the hunt to put all of the pieces together and look at the overall picture that we have. For example, I think we have knocked out St. Louis at this point, despite the peculiar email from BP that seemed to imply that one was buried there. However, he did impress me as an "absent minded professor" type. Perhaps he just did not remember correctly, or maybe he had considered St. Louis but decided not to bury one there. He gave me the wrong jewel. He found $25,000 in savings bonds that he forgot that he had in the vault. He couldn't find the solutions in the vault! It took him nearly a year to find the key to the vault. His instructions in the verse for Cleveland were backwards. I am not sure how much weight to give to his St. Louis email. I see the 12 cities as San Francisco, Charleston, Kill Devil Hill, Cleveland, Chicago, St. Augustine, New Orleans, Houston, New York, Milwaukee, Boston, and Vancouver. Goodbye St. Louis, Montreal, Baltimore, Portland, Philadelphia, and Salt Lake City.
PLEASE feel free to criticize, chime in, etc. This is just 1 person's opinion (mostly based on the intro in the book).
I enjoy being back in the threads active again, but darn it, it's such a time waster!
Hirudiniforme
Real discussion!!! This is great!!! I'm tempted to join in. Oh, no! I shouldn't have said anything... did I jinx it?
My thoughts on the numbers in the pic...
1) the man's chest is a 3
2) the flower holds three numbers - 45, 46, 67
3) the hairs hold three numbers 73.5
4) the upper-right chest holds three letters - P I X
-although, this could very easily be a 74, as the 7 and the 4 are in the exact same font-style as those same numbers in the flower
5) the golden square holds three places - olympic stadium, habitat 67, mount stephen club
I don't think the hair on the upper-left is/are numbers... I've been toying with the idea that they can be mirrored, much like each side of his face, to produce a very stern mouse
3 blind mice? Massive headwound harry?
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The Fair People withdrew from the Old World (which they called the Middle Kingdom), migrating across the Ocean Sea to dwell in the hills and forests of the New Found Land.
If we take the Image 9 coords for NY, then what do you make of possible Image 12 coords Egbert...? The clearest numbers I see are 36 on the flower (turn sideways)...
...could also be 63,38, 83 etc...
...and 50 in the waves. (Turn the picture 90 deg anticlockwise and the "5" is the breaking wave.)
63, 50 is the Havre-Sainte-Pierre area near Newfoundland.
forest_blight
Egbert wrote::
FB, you are leaving out the 39 in his hairline on the forehead. That is very clearly a number there. If that is a coordinate, then that kicks out Montreal.
Unknown:
I think we have knocked out St. Louis at this point, despite the peculiar email from BP that seemed to imply that one was buried there.
I have to admit I've never considered the chrysanthemum anything other than a flower (but the rose in P1 does look suggestive of something, I can't tell quite what). It does look like there is something there. Nothing intelligible. Read right-side-up, I see:
IWK
BOE
...which is nonsense.
I deliberately omitted it from discussion because it did not help distinguish Montreal and New York (the only contenders in my scenario). 39 is not consistent with either one... unless you want to go significantly south of NYC and deliberately ignore the (even more blatant) 73.
The legeater lamp is not necessarily a tie to Montreal, even though the only one that has been spotted is situated there. That model was cast for mass production.
I doubt JJP would decide to use it for any purpose other than a site confirmer. That's just a strong suspicion on my part.
Yes, except that 39 is a bounding latitude for St. Louis.
The elephant in the room is that 39 and 73 just aren't compatible. The upper left corner of the latitude/longitude quadrangle bounded by 39 and 73 is in the Atlantic east of NJ, and no map would be so imprecise as to lead BP to believe otherwise. I think we are either misreading the 39 or one of these numbers is simply not a latitude/longitude.
forest_blight
Egbert wrote::
FB, you are leaving out the 39 in his hairline on the forehead. That is very clearly a number there. If that is a coordinate, then that kicks out Montreal.
Unknown:
I think we have knocked out St. Louis at this point, despite the peculiar email from BP that seemed to imply that one was buried there.
I have to admit I've never considered the chrysanthemum anything other than a flower (but the rose in P1 does look suggestive of something, I can't tell quite what). It does look like there is something there. Nothing intelligible. Read right-side-up, I see:
IWK
BOE
...which is nonsense.
I deliberately omitted it from discussion because it did not help distinguish Montreal and New York (the only contenders in my scenario). 39 is not consistent with either one... unless you want to go significantly
south
of NYC and deliberately ignore the (even more blatant) 73.
The legeater lamp is not necessarily a tie to Montreal, even though the only one that has been spotted is situated there. That model was cast for mass production.
I doubt JJP would decide to use it for any purpose other than a site confirmer. That's just a strong suspicion on my part.
Yes, except that 39 is a bounding latitude for St. Louis.
The elephant in the room is that 39 and 73 just aren't compatible. The upper left corner of the latitude/longitude quadrangle bounded by 39 and 73 is in the Atlantic east of NJ, and no map would be so imprecise as to lead BP to believe otherwise. I think we are either misreading the 39 or one of these numbers is simply not a latitude/longitude.
WhiteRabbit
I'm not sure about all this bounding malarkey, but adjacent pairs seems to cover the two solved, likely locations like NO, and Eg's theory. The 39/40 seems a perfectly valid possibility to me.
I don't see where Vancouver comes into it though, and I think the Montreal legeater is almost certainly the source for Image 9. It might be a red herring, but it's extremely unlikely we'll find another.
Egbert
I agree that the 39 is a problem. Let's assume for a moment that it is not a 39 (upside down, it could be a 60 or 6P), or it is not a coordinate.
That number in the flower could be a 40, and we have 73 in the hair. Those are the coordinates for New York.
St. Louis would have 38 or 39, and then 90 or 91. I don't see 90 or 91 anywhere. You could possibly use the 9 on his forehead with the line next to it for 91, but then you would not be able to also use the 9 for 39. Also, this ignores the 73 in his hair, and I do not see how you can get any of those numbers from the flower.
I wish we could figure out what that other thing in his hair is, which has a 5 or S in it. It looks like there is something else next to it, as you get closer to his neck.
Deuce
Don't forget about this little guy.
erexere
I think this is a strange discussion to get into all the stretchy aspects of what looks like a number in hopes to get lat or long when the forefront of our process might be better served by understanding the verse. Fox and others have looked at the "major port cities" as a rule of thumb. Innall the cases where lat longs are not plain and only exist in our imaginations we'll have to give in to some other factor for a tie in, which seems most obvious to be the cultural clue -returning to the LotJ.
For this image, clearly Dutch for its opal, were looking at something Viking or Lowland Scot as the next best thing. Canada fits the Netherlands link best with a name such as Nova Scotia...
My take on verse 10 for this image follows the idea that in the the shadw of the grey giant has to do with recognizing a great person and following their footsteps. The leg of a lamp at the Stephens Club literally at the buildings steps. Its a building named for a great person. Its no stretch of the imagination to perceive the opportunity for a metaphor. Figuring where this metaphor takes us is the challenge.
Merlot Brougham
Egbert wrote::
2. This is the Dutch picture. "The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes: A cloud of shining, shifting smoke." The roman numeral X stands for October, the 10th month. The Dutch came and settled in New York. It was originally called "New Amsterdam, New Netherlands." "Netherlands" is where the Dutch are from, and it literally means "low lands."
Egbert wrote::
I think the large part of the brown collar - the one on the left side of the Image - is definitely a clue to something.
Egbert wrote::
3. Byron Preiss was born in Brooklyn. He died while vacationing in East Hampton, New York, which is not that far away. It would be impossible for me to believe that a book based on immigration would not have a treasure buried in the same State as Ellis Island.
It could also be a reference to the St. Lawrence Lowlands.
Here's an interpretation I like.
I also just want to echo Rookhunter on the connection between the characteristics of the drawing and the physical location of the legeater lamp within the Golden Square Mile. This part of the clue doesn't seem to get as much attention, and I think it's pretty strong. If it was just some symbolism/rebus/etc and was not referring to this specific lamp, putting that "rebus" within a prominent golden square inside Image 9 is just salt in the wounds.
I agree with you. In the pictures below I know I'm not posting any new ideas. My intention is not to insult your (or anyone else's) intelligence. I just think the image 12/ NYC clues are pretty solid, beyond Lady Liberty, and here are the things I find compelling:
Red "outline" of the harbor:
Ferry Building:
WhiteRabbit
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Ferry Building:
You nailed the eagle.
erexere
What if the flower in image 9 is simulating a clock? Might it only be a "7" and an "o"? 7 o'clock?
I've been set on the idea that the flower is a poppy disguising the cross section of a tree (the Lumberman's Arch in Stanley Park). In other words it's a piece of wood. Since this is the Dutch image, I recall those classic wooden shoes, "clogs" right?
Maybe it's a funny kind of rebus: 7 o clog. Using this with verse 10 it supplies us with the distance to walk 2x 7, or 14 steps.
Working with what I have, which isn't much, or maybe it's just enough, here's a perspective from google streetview (upper right) looking at the stone bleachers in the background beneath the shelter over the giant checkerboards, a postcard (image mirrored, lower right), and an old pic of the Lumberman's Arch (late 60's, rotated 90 degrees, lower left),
Notice how the pick in the tree in the background may match that of the one in the postcard where the view is pointing away from the shelter.
Bonus observation: the checker pieces are literally made from clogged (resin filled) wooden pipes, cut into cross sections. Clogged wood may be associated with wood clogs (the Dutch shoes).
Hirudiniforme
image 9 is a rebus. turn the image 90 degrees counterclockwise... his nose, an arrow, shows the way it flows:
monk
three
all
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
image 9 is a rebus. turn the image 90 degrees counterclockwise... his nose, an arrow, shows the way it flows:
monk
three
all
Damn, that's dope.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Damn, that's dope.
Fitting... I give creative credit to my other girlfriend, MJ.
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
image 9 is a rebus. turn the image 90 degrees counterclockwise... his nose, an arrow, shows the way it flows:
monk
three
all
Egbert
(sigh) Okay, I give in. This is Montreal.
Montreal's coordinates are 45.5 x 73.6
So, that flower probably holds the 46. As for the 73, that's in his hair. Bingo.
Congratulations, everyone, we got it.
That means Image 12 is
New
York. Since Boston is probably Image 11, there is no St. Louis, no Vancouver, no Salt Lake City.
Now, back to Image 9 - what clue is on his forehead? J9?
Egbert
(sigh) Okay, I give in. This is Montreal.
Montreal's coordinates are 45.5 x 73.6
So, that flower probably holds the 46. As for the 73, that's in his hair. Bingo.
Congratulations, everyone, we got it.
That means Image 12 is New York. Since Boston is probably Image 11, there is no St. Louis, no Vancouver, no Salt Lake City.
Now, back to Image 9 - what clue is on his forehead? J9?
bigmattyh
Ooooh, I never noticed that! Nice.
Deuce
Or perhaps this one...
This is Trois Rivieres, 46N/72W. Maybe the big 3 is our clue since Trois=3.
fox
Now that I can hang my hat on. Didn't really buy the rebus but this is concrete. Leg eater is back in business. He never went out of business for me though.
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
Now that I can hang my hat on. Didn't really buy the rebus but this is concrete. Leg eater is back in business. He never went out of business for me though.
There really was never any doubt.
forest_blight
maltedfalcon pointed out the resemblance of the collar to the St. Lawrence River in 2008, but I'm glad to see the theory resurrected. It's a good one.
Now, what verse?
There are several possibilities for "Isle of B" in Montreal toward which one may look when facing north(ish). Here is a nearly complete list:
Iles de Boucherville (or Bouchard)
Ile Bizard
Ile Bonfoin
Ile Bourdon
Ile au Bois Blanc
Ile Bellegarde
Ile Boutin
Ile Bigras
Ile Boisee
Ile Belair
shecrab suggested Cartier as "him of Hard word," and there is a gigantic statue of him on the north side of Mt. Royal Park.
There is a St. Louis Lake right beside Montreal, and this may agree with my theory that our fellow's arched eyebrow (look close) signifies the arch in "our" St. Louis, and agrees with BP's statement that we wouldn't be wrong to look in St Louis. There is also a St. Louis Park, and probably several other St. Louis named locations.
Egbert
forest_blight wrote::
maltedfalcon pointed out the resemblance of the collar to the St. Lawrence River in 2008, but I'm glad to see the theory resurrected. It's a good one.
forest_blight wrote::
Now, what verse?
forest_blight wrote::
shecrab suggested Cartier as "him of Hard word," and there is a gigantic statue of him on the north side of Mt. Royal Park.
forest_blight wrote::
There is a St. Louis Lake right beside Montreal, and this may agree with my theory that our fellow's arched eyebrow (look close) signifies the arch in "our" St. Louis, and agrees with BP's statement that we wouldn't be wrong to look in St Louis. There is also a St. Louis Park, and probably several other St. Louis named locations.
Yes it is! Wish I would have remembered that before spending an hour yesterday putting that together.
I think the only choices we have left are Verses 6 and 10. Edwin and Edwina v. him of Hard word.
Please explain the Cartier reference as him of Hard word. I believe he was a famous explorer, if we are talking about the same person.
I like that theory a lot.
Merlot Brougham
forest_blight wrote::
Now, what verse?
I think the only choices we have left are Verses 6 and 10. Edwin and Edwina v. him of Hard word.
[/QUOTE]
Verse 5
WhiteRabbit
forest_blight wrote::
There is a St. Louis Lake right beside Montreal, and this may agree with my theory that our fellow's arched eyebrow (look close) signifies the arch in "our" St. Louis, and agrees with BP's statement that we wouldn't be wrong to look in St Louis. There is also a St. Louis Park, and probably several other St. Louis named locations.
I'd like to know what verse and image BP was responding to when he made the "deserve to know you are right about St Louis" remark. If it was a cryptic hint about some other St Louis, it would seem a bit odd if it was about some completely unrelated image and verse. (I think this was the image, though I don't know what the verse was.)
forest_blight
Egbert wrote::
I think the only choices we have left are Verses 6 and 10. Edwin and Edwina v. him of Hard word.
Egbert wrote::
Please explain the Cartier reference as him of Hard word.
I think V5 is a contender, too. I cannot be convinced that Edwin and Edwina is anything other than a reference to the Charleston, SC twins named after Edward Wilmot Blyden. The same book that gave us the Sarmiento quote also tells us about the twins Edwin and Edwina being named after him. Did I mention that this was from the SAME BOOK THAT GAVE US THE SARMIENTO QUOTE? See:
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/blyden.jpg
. I mean, c'mon.
There is the famous Cartier jewelry family. Diamonds are pretty hard.
Egbert
forest_blight wrote::
I think V5 is a contender, too. I cannot be convinced that Edwin and Edwina is anything other than a reference to the Charleston, SC twins named after Edward Wilmot Blyden. The same book that gave us the Sarmiento quote also tells us about the twins Edwin and Edwina being named after him. Did I mention that this was from the SAME BOOK THAT GAVE US THE SARMIENTO QUOTE? See:
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/blyden.jpg
. I mean, c'mon.
Ooooh, of course, I completely forgot about that quote! See what happens when I stay away for too long? Yes, I agree that that is correct. Have we found anything on Blyden in SC? I guess I will check the Verse thread on that.
Merlot Brougham
I just wanted to throw this out there too. Phone posting at the moment so later I'll try to find an image to do this idea justice, but I've held on to the notion that there may indeed be a (portion of) a map of Quebec in this image.
It is represented by the entirety of his "robe" on the left hand (our left) side of the image above his hands. If compared to a map, the flower would be the portion of Labrador that juts into Quebec (for lack of a better description). The robe along the checkerboard and the flower would be the eastern border of Quebec, the top of his right hand and arm are the southern border, etc
That would also help explain why his hands are positioned that way. Don't look at the hands, by themselves, look at how his hands affect the shape of the black area to make it into an outline of Quebec.
Just a thought.
Edit:
Hirudiniforme
I can dig it.
Merlot Brougham
Egbert wrote::
Now, back to Image 9 - what clue is on his forehead? J9?
This is the Dominion Square Tavern:
Dorchester (Dominion) Square is also within the Golden Square Mile and has the Boer War monument (Dutch connection).
Here's Dominion Square in the 60's. No idea how long that facade stayed up:
wk
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I just wanted to throw this out there too. Phone posting at the moment so later I'll try to find an image to do this idea justice, but I've held on to the notion that there may indeed be a (portion of) a map of Quebec in this image.
It is represented by the entirety of his "robe" on the left hand (our left) side of the image above his hands. If compared to a map, the flower would be the portion of Labrador that juts into Quebec (for lack of a better description). The robe along the checkerboard and the flower would be the eastern border of Quebec, the top of his right hand and arm are the southern border, etc
That would also help explain why his hands are positioned that way. Don't look at the hands, by themselves, look at how his hands affect the shape of the black area to make it into an outline of Quebec.
Just a thought.
Edit:
and his head is Montreal!
rookhunter
I didn't see this brought upbut it's worth mentioning, I heard Mount Stephen is going to be turned into a hotel.
SOmeone nearby should take pics before it changes more.
Merlot Brougham
rookhunter wrote::
I didn't see this brought upbut it's worth mentioning, I heard Mount Stephen is going to be turned into a hotel.
SOmeone nearby should take pics before it changes more.
There are some good detailed pictures on wiki commons that show a lot of the recent construction to the back side of the building. As far as I know, the plans are for the front yard and street-facing facade to remain relatively unchanged. I think I put some of those pics up on the SA Secret wiki, but the SA wiki is being overrun at the moment.
wk
Here is confirmation that image 9 is Montreal. I have mirrored the outline of the river and rotated it. It is not possible to accurately fit the outline to the image like some of the other images but there are lots of features which are noticeable on the head:
- the widening of the river corresponds to the neck.
- the raised hair on the right.
- the hanging hair on the right.
- the eyes match the bend in the river.
- the chin where the land bulges into the river.
- his right ear is positioned where there is a small island.
- crumpled top of the hat where the river width varies.
cw0909
i followed a link from the article, about the Dominion Square pic merlot posted
the article didnt say a whole lot about that img, it led me to where the article
got it from, somewhere here.....
hxxp://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/ ... =116__true
then i looked around the site, i think it could be a good resourse for looking around
old montreal, i havent done a search for the eighties yet, maybe after the hoilday
home
hxxp://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/
this looks cool
hxxp://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/keys/ ... twolenses/
wk
The view of Montreal from the top of Mount Royal Park looks interesting. There is a giant stairway in that park too.
wk
Montreal districts
If you put the name of a Montreal district into Google maps, it gives a shaded outline of the district. Try these:
- Ville-Marie ( west boundary matches hands and finger)
- Outremont (boundary in Mount Royal)
- Le Plateau-Mont-Royal(possible matching curve of collar)
Notice the alignment of the streets and turn the map about 30 degrees anticlockwise to match the checkered pattern on the clothes.
While trying to align Mount Royal Park to the artwork of the fingers, I noticed that there were other green areas on the map which aligned with the image.
The stepped neck outline lowest part results in a three sided square which is Sir Wilfrid Laurier Park.
The square with the P X 7 symbol is La Fontaine Park. Its lake resembles the shape of a P and 7. Island fountain is in the centre of P. The paths in this park do cross.
The flower petals resemble the paths in Jarry Park.
If the dogleg symbol is the Golden Mile then it is relatively in the correct place on the map.
Finally, I noticed one more green area to the north west, and on zooming in, its outline bears a resemblance to the mystery shape inside the dogleg square. Maybe the artist just used this for the Libra zodiac symbol. Anyway the shape matches even if it is not in the correct place.
wk
forest_blight wrote::
An interesting sequence of events
1981
. J. J. Palencar paints a weirdo animal eating a hoof
Aug. 11, 2006
. ravel07 finds this guy hanging out at 1440 Drummond St., Montreal:
Aug. 12, 2006
. fox says "Lets research this thing to death." FB says "Okay!!"
August, 2006 - March, 2007
. FB researches this thing to death. Many letters were written to vintage decorative iron
dealers and lighting specialists describing the situation with enough detail to intrigue, yet not enough to spill all the beans. These letters are accompanied with full-color photographs of the lamps at Mount Stephen Club. A couple bear fruit.
March 30, 2007
. Wayne Fuller of Robinson Iron Corp, Alexander City, AL writes:
"The post shown in your pictures contains a portion of ornamental detail from
a J. W. Fiske Lamppost No. 470 C. in a historic catalog in our collection.
Fiske had showrooms in New York, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. The three
hooved/paws motif can often be found on posts of the period but as to their
meaning I am sorry to say I do not know. Perhaps you might consult The
Library of Congress or The Smithsonian Institute to find out more. Good Luck
in your pursuit."
Accompanying his message is this little gem:
...which matches the middle section of our lamp perfectly, as you can see (but
not
the base or the upper half). I guess the bottom wasn't ornate enough for Lord Mount Stephen. The base was either replaced with another part on-site, or else ordered from a newer catalog.
Finally having something to go on, FB roots up information on J. W. Fiske. Three sources present themselves: (1) 19th-century Fiske catalogs in the Library of Congress and elsewhere, (2) An article by Barbara Israel (
hxxp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1026/is_3_157/ai_60370500
) that is very much worth reading, and, mentioned in that article, (3)
a living descendant of J. W. Fiske who happens to have, in his possession, sales records for the company.
.
April, 2007
. Jubilant now, FB seeks said catalogs through interlibrary loans. He also writes Barbara Israel for more information. Armed with serial numbers or catalog numbers for specific items (like, hopefully, our ornate lamp base), he will approach Mr. Fiske himself and figure out who else - hopefully someone in St. Louis - ordered one of these things.
That's an update. My search is active and ongoing, and I'll post more here before too long, I hope.
This is where the clue for Montreal seems to have started.
I notice that Drummond St leads to the Mount Royal Park.
Merlot Brougham
wk wrote::
This is where the clue for Montreal seems to have started.
I notice that Drummond St leads to the Mount Royal Park.
To be fair, Montreal was a suggestion in the mix prior to the discovery of the legeater due to the numbers in the image (which would also need to be reconciled with any alternate theories).
I'm on record being a Verse 5 guy for this image, but in light of the rumblings in the image 11 thread, mentions of Drummond street and Mount Royal, I'll throw this out there for those not convinced that Verse 8 belongs in Milwaukee:
A bit of a stretch, but what if "beating of the world" in verse 8 is a reference to Drummond? Monde being the French word for "world", and Drum being, well, a drum. Which one would beat. Combine the two into Drummond and you would get "the beating of the world" without much in the line of convoluted mental gymnastics to get there.
In order for that to work, I suppose you'd have to use the Mount Stephen Club (legeater) as the starting point and figure out what that area has to do with "Three stories of Mitchell" that would fit better than it does in Milwaukee. Not to mention the other items that do seem to link Verse 8 to Milwaukee, but it's a thought...
wk
well I am considering verse 10 at the moment because I found a place in the mount royal park with 22 steps and there is an isle of b to the north.
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/user/130886
erexere
Blob.
Leg.
Just a couple considerations: leg definitly fits Montreal, blob then fits the Habitat to a degree better than anything else we've dedged up. The thing that id like to consider now is why is the leg so big and the blob so small? Also, if perceived in combination, since they share the same square, one thing is light and the other dark, leg and object seems like a "horse and cart" analogy, though the blob appears to not have wheels.
Thoughts?
rookhunter
erexere wrote::
Blob.
Leg.
Just a couple considerations: leg definitly fits Montreal, blob then fits the Habitat to a degree better than anything else we've dedged up. The thing that id like to consider now is why is the leg so big and the blob so small? Also, if perceived in combination, since they share the same square, one thing is light and the other dark, leg and object seems like a "horse and cart" analogy, though the blob appears to not have wheels.
Thoughts?
Well since you asked and you are not arguing for Toronto..
The Leg is either a "treasure ground" clue (like fence and fixture) or a "city clue" (like the Chicago water tower). I want to believe the blob is Habitat but it doesn't match on the Habitat, notice the curved dome on the top with windows. What that blobs seems to be is an architectural design that looks similar to the houses of Golden Square mile. Look at some of the mansions of the area and you will notice these step looking
features on the top of this house. Many homes in the square mile have similar features and I believe that to be what we are looking for.
erexere
Thats great! It certainly looks like an improvement over the Habitat.
Now, is it deemed reasonable to assume theres a specific reason to tie those two elements together? Are you suggsting its just a square saying general features within the Golden Square Mile?
Merlot Brougham
rookhunter wrote::
Well since you asked and you are not arguing for Toronto..
The Leg is either a "treasure ground" clue (like fence and fixture) or a "city clue" (like the Chicago water tower). I want to believe the blob is Habitat but it doesn't match on the Habitat, notice the curved dome on the top with windows. What that blobs seems to be is an architectural design that looks similar to the houses of Golden Square mile. Look at some of the mansions of the area and you will notice these step looking
features on the top of this house. Many homes in the square mile have similar features and I believe that to be what we are looking for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that picture isn't just a home in the Golden Square Mile, but that's one of the buildings at the Royal Victoria Hospital. Agreed there are many similar homes as well, but since the hospital was funded and built by George Stephen who is also responsible for the leg eater, I find the hospital a compelling location, particularly if you match it up with verse 5. The hospital also has potential visual matches, such as the heraldic crests on the building and the image 9 collar. I've posted some thoughts before and would be happy to re-hash some of those ideas.
Also, if you look at the map of the golden square mile, you'll notice that the hospital is on the "broken corner", if you will, of the Golden Square Mile. I've thought this may be significant compared to how the leg eater in image 9 breaks out of the confines of the golden square.
rookhunter
erexere wrote::
Thats great! It certainly looks like an improvement over the Habitat.
Now, is it deemed reasonable to assume theres a specific reason to tie those two elements together? Are you suggsting its just a square saying general features within the Golden Square Mile?
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that picture isn't just a home in the Golden Square Mile, but that's one of the buildings at the Royal Victoria Hospital. Agreed there are many similar homes as well, but since the hospital was funded and built by George Stephen who is also responsible for the leg eater, I find the hospital a compelling location, particularly if you match it up with verse 5. The hospital also has potential visual matches, such as the heraldic crests on the building and the image 9 collar. I've posted some thoughts before and would be happy to re-hash some of those ideas.
Also, if you look at the map of the golden square mile, you'll notice that the hospital is on the "broken corner", if you will, of the Golden Square Mile. I've thought this may be significant compared to how the leg eater in image 9 breaks out of the confines of the golden square.
I don't think there is enough to say. They could be separate clues or linked somehow. I think we need to find a perfect match first.
Correct! Almost every building in the square mile seems to have been a mansion at one point. I like the hospital/McGill university area as a search area but like with every location the changes since the 80s are great. Have you seen anything else that matches the image? (I have read the 100+ pages but I don't remember exactly).
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Thats great! It certainly looks like an improvement over the Habitat.
I'm thinking you are merging two different clues in this discussion. The upside down image reveals a 5-stepped pyramid, and the legeater box holds an irregular shape that has a couple of steps. The two are are very different. To say the blob is the top of a hospital building, you'd have to discount it looks nothing like it. While the hospital roof does look like the rooftop seen in the upside down image, the blob is a totally separate and distinct clue (maybe) at that point. I could go for the blob being habitat 67, but it is in no way a rooftop unless the house is jacked. And if your view is then that the hospital roof is the upside down image, the blob is then still unsolved.
And I'm sold on the upside down image being the rooftop of Trafalgar.
erexere
Good point, to merge or not to merge, its difficult to say what's a distinct vs a partial clue, such as a rebus item like millstone-walkingstick-key or in this case a box that contains the legeater AND the blob. We're at a loss if we were expected to identify the blob in the immediate vicinity of the legeater. If we widen our radius around the lamp discover, then the Golden Square mile is reasonable. I've always wondered if the blob is a blocky redacted object with only faint hints exposed in those round edgings. What kind of thing could look like that? Rotated 90 or 180 degrees maybe? Does the size of the clue matter?
Deuce
I was searching for some location confirmers and found these. It might be nothing but maybe something to look into.
Possible outline of Mt. Royal Park.
And a stone sculpture in the park. I can't find any info on it so I don't know how long it's been there. And I'm not sure if a different angle will make it look even better.
wk
erexere wrote::
Good point, to merge or not to merge, its difficult to say what's a distinct vs a partial clue, such as a rebus item like millstone-walkingstick-key or in this case a box that contains the legeater AND the blob. We're at a loss if we were expected to identify the blob in the immediate vicinity of the legeater. If we widen our radius around the lamp discover, then the Golden Square mile is reasonable. I've always wondered if the blob is a blocky redacted object with only faint hints exposed in those round edgings. What kind of thing could look like that? Rotated 90 or 180 degrees maybe? Does the size of the clue matter?
The blob is possibly a rebus because it is also supposed to contain the zodiac symbol for Libra, but the top semi-circle part of the blob resembles the entrance to the Macdonald Stewart Library building in the McGill University.
Also the left side outline of the Legeater matches the NW outline of the Mount Royal Park, which is also the west boundary of the Golden Square Mile shown as a dotted line on Google Map.
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/qzwES
catherwood
Following up on a conversation in the comments of
this reddit post
led me to look up the source for the other legeater statue as mentioned. It's in Palermo, Italy.
hxxp://www.theresamaggio.com/blog.htm?post=952363
forest_blight
catherwood wrote::
Following up on a conversation in the comments of
this reddit post
led me to look up the source for the other legeater statue as mentioned. It's in Palermo, Italy.
hxxp://www.theresamaggio.com/blog.htm?post=952363
Okay, that's crazy! Nice find.
cw0909
editing and proofreading, must not be important in the digital/virtual world lol
anyway 2 legeater in montreal, i see 2 for sure, and maybe 2 more far right where people are
so that is a pos 6, that sure throws a twist on things,could one be/had been in the lower 48
and a whole dif foundry in a dif counrty
lg mount stephen
hxxp://postmediamontreal.files.wordpres ... tephen.jpg
did mount stephen close
hxxp://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2011/1 ... stephen-3/
garden Giardino Garibaldi, maybe 4 legeater
hxxp://kateludlow.files.wordpress.com/2 ... g_5557.jpg
hxxp://kateludlow.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... les-fence/
Hirudiniforme
forest_blight wrote::
Okay, that's crazy! Nice find.
It's the claw not the hoof, but there is a legeater in BPL
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0182/rumbyrkp2c74m2f6g.jpg
forest_blight
Here's a photo of that lamp that I took in August, 2008:
Definitely not "our" legeater.
maltedfalcon
Deuce wrote::
And a stone sculpture in the park. I can't find any info on it so I don't know how long it's been there. And I'm not sure if a different angle will make it look even better.
placed in the park in the fall of 2006... too bad I liked that one.
hxxp://ville.montreal.qc.ca/pls/portal/ ... ing_en.pdf
Xieish
Is there anyone in Montreal on the ground? I have a specific spot I would really like someone to take a picture of if someone is feeling generous. I'll reimburse bus fare if need be!
edit: No worries it's not an attempted dig spot, but there's an "area" that I've seen internet pictures of that I would like specific pictures taken from... the ones I found were some woman's amateur glamour shots posing in a park.
TexWriter
erexere wrote::
I think it's possible to work all of these puzzles by first focusing on the big obvious things. The details will matter only when you're on the right track. There could literally be a monkey element to factor in, but you're going to have to put the idea on hold while you first gain perspective, find a spot that holds major significance and take it from there. I suppose most people think that's the "legeater" lamp in front of the Mount Stephen Club. I think that's an unfortunate assumption. I agree the lamp is spot on, but there's been absolutely nothing firmly established as to where to go from there or from where one came to get to that spot. If it is a mere breadcrumb on a path, then it's doing a terrible job behaving like one. It could be we haven't had enough feet on the ground to investigate the area or important features to this puzzle are no longer intact. Instead of waiting for that assumed approach to play out, I think it's a natural question to ask 'why?' should the leg of this lamp in front of the Mount Stephen Club be important? What reason would a person have to go to the Mount Stephen Club in the first place and then to discover a lamp's leg (at torso height) matches the design on the robed man's lapel? I think it's a detail of some importance, but also one that wasn't intended to be discovered or necessary with respect to finding the Montreal location.
The idea of a lamp leg is already discernable in the image. I think it's importance in at least one respect references an idiomatic usage. As displayed on the chest, it would be like a badge or medal of some sort of achievement. The idioms using the word leg are "leg up", "last legs", or this seems the best, "a leg to stand on," a justifiable or logical basis for defense. The man in the robe looks contemplative. His robe is covered in checkers. Is he playing a game of checkers or chess?
I agree completely with what you say, that the importance of the "legeater" is not its location at all. I think it is simply a pointer to have us note that it is a "mirror image". This theory was shown on The Secret's wiki but it only included the face. I took the image today and applied the mirror (using photoshop) and found a major breakthrough. The big clue is not visible in the original picture but is visible in both the smile side mirrored image and the frown side mirrored image. I have posted the pictures and you will see what I found. Be sure and check this out. I feel this may be a breakthrough for someone to link it all together and solve this one. Good luck!!!
My site:
hxxp://txtreasurehunter.net/
Merlot Brougham
None of this is new, but I don't think we should overlook the importance of the symbolism of the yellow (or gold) checker pattern.
The legeater in image 9 is situated within one of the gold colored squares:
The Mount Stephen Club in Montreal is located within the "Golden Square Mile" neighborhood of Montreal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Square_Mile
Just as our solved images contain maps of Ohio and Illinois:
Image 9 also contains a map of Quebec:
forest_blight
So tonight I'm staying at a hotel that's TWO BLOCKS from the Mount Stephen Club in Montreal. Sadly I prolly won't have a chance to visit our favorite lamppost, but I can feel the nearby presence of a casque, I just know it...
Egbert
Are you kidding? You are 2 blocks from the lamp post, and prefer to sleep?
All you need is a flashlight!
erexere
The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes:
A cloud of shining, shifting smoke.
Could this be describing a crystal ball? I think of the hazy cloud that you get when the future is unclear.
If so, how the subject of a crystal ball put things in the right frame of perspective? I took a glance at the wiki article on the topic and it says they're known as a "Shew" or "Show" stone. It's typically a sphere of quartz crystal. Pure Quartz is just a form of SiO
2
. Opal is similar only a hydrated crystalline structure SiO
2
+
n
H
2
O, giving it a cloudy and rainbow quality.
I wonder if "Shew" stone is a hint for looking for a "Shoe" stone, or a "footstone"? This would be a grave marker. I'm not suggesting we dig for a caque at a grave, btw. I'm suggesting there may be something significant to be gained from learning about someone in particular, similar to how we've recognized the Keats grave in its application to Verse 9.
Another thought, Gnomes are typically stone garden affects. Gnomes wear those characteristic shoes. I wonder if we might gain perspective from a Grimm story:
hxxp://classiclit.about.com/library/bl- ... -gnome.htm
WhiteRabbit
I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm not going to plough through 100+ pages to check...
Montreal coords are 73, 45
I remember the 73, but looking at this image earlier I didn't remember the 45 right next to it, slightly darker. I had to squint to see it, but it seems fairly clear to me now.
What I'm interested in is not so much confirming Montreal, which I think we pretty much all agree on, but the visual obscurity of some definite clues.
I don't have a paper copy of the book anymore. Maybe it's more visible there. There may be some things which just can't be made out on the scans.
Incidentally I see there's currently a US one on Amazon for £1.37. After that they jump to over £50, so if anyone's looking for a copy, grab it...! You'll probably make a nice profit in a couple of years...
hxxp://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listin ... 1415469271
I wonder if the Kindle edition is actually kosher after all, and what the scan quality is like. It's listed as published by iBooks, which does seem to be related to rightsholder
Colby's
.
I think there's still potential for a breakthrough by discovering overlooked image matches in the pictures. I'm sure there's something going on in the corner of this one, though I've no idea what.
Merlot Brougham
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I think there's still potential for a breakthrough by discovering overlooked image matches in the pictures. I'm sure there's something going on in the corner of this one, though I've no idea what.
I know "Peel" was suggested before Montreal was even really on the radar, so that helps with a little of the confirmation bias. Rue Peel being another street within the Golden Square Mile. It's on the map from my previous post in this thread to show a distance comparison from the Legeater.
Here's one for fun:
I've seen plenty of people suggest that the guy in image 9 is doing the "Here is the church, here is the steeple" thing with his hands. Well, he's at the point where he's opening the "doors" of the church. He's also holding his hands (i.e. the "door") right in front of his chest. His hands are give us the rebus of "door + chest" or Dorchester.
animal painter
Just looking at this background area...
Is there any connection to birds in the location area?
I see what could be either a peacock or turkey (on the left)
or maybe a pigeon (on the right) in a nest with baby birds to her left
with their mouths open. (I did not outline them)
Just freely associating...
AP
animal painter
There is an organization called Bird Protection Quebec.
It may be near Montreal...Haven't researched it fully yet.
This could denote a bird sanctuary, too.
WhiteRabbit
It's an odd texture. I wonder if there might have been some photographic element or other special technique in the preparation of some of these backgrounds. I still occasionally glimpse an almost 'Magc Eye' stereoscopic-type effect if I angle them and stare at them, even on an iPad, but it may just be imagination.
cw0909
forest_blight wrote::
So tonight I'm staying at a hotel that's TWO BLOCKS from the Mount Stephen Club in Montreal. Sadly I prolly won't have a chance to visit our favorite lamppost, but I can feel the nearby presence of a casque, I just know it...
FB good luck you sound like you have a plan
Toasty
Hi all,
take a look at the mouth in the picture, doesnt it look like a bow. The string of the bow goes from one corner of the mouth, behind the big part of the nose to the other corner of the mouth. So, is there a statue somewhere near with a bow and arrow?
Toasty
forest_blight
No plan, I'm afraid. I'm pretty much stumped on all of these, but I can't stop thinking about them. Maybe someday this incubation will lead to insight.
My stay in Montreal was brief, but I got to spend time with old friends and some new ones. I've been to the Mount Stephen Club's lamppost before (2008) and I bet it hasn't changed much since then. Oh, and if you visit Montreal I am now in a position to recommend Casa Galacia (on Rue Saint-Denis) for some excellent Spanish style seafood. Dig up the casque while it's still daylight and then go to Galacia on a Friday night to celebrate, and see some of the best flamenco guitar ever. I did this, just without digging up a casque first. Maybe next time.
Hirudiniforme
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I've seen plenty of people suggest that the guy in image 9 is doing the "Here is the church, here is the steeple" thing with his hands. Well, he's at the point where he's opening the "doors" of the church. He's also holding his hands (i.e. the "door") right in front of his chest. His hands are give us the rebus of "door + chest" or Dorchester.
That's actually pretty darn good, IMO. I had proffered it was the "all the people" step, and that the image stacked three things into a rebus... monk + three + all.
It's amazing how easy it is to interpret these images in alternate ways.
erexere
I see a theater persona, but I too like the church/steeple/people gesturing. When I merge the two ideas I think of all the people in a theater: the audience. I wonder if it could be construed as "parterre"...fitting for lowland gnomes.
tjgrey
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I've seen plenty of people suggest that the guy in image 9 is doing the "Here is the church, here is the steeple" thing with his hands. Well, he's at the point where he's opening the "doors" of the church. He's also holding his hands (i.e. the "door") right in front of his chest. His hands are give us the rebus of "door + chest" or Dorchester.
Merlot- that IS good. Not near as *obvious* as the Mil-Walk-Key, but good.
I wondered if it was supposed to be looked at as a "standing member", as in the "only standing member" in V5. (I'm messing with the images connecting to a phrase in the verses...)
Hirudiniforme
If you keep your head a few feet back from the page (or zoom quite far out on a digital image), you can see this shaded area in Image 9 that looks to be a definitive shape, which I tried to outline. It kinda looks like Bullet Bill crashing into an "E" to me. The further away you get/zoom, the clearer the shaded image becomes.
Any thoughts?
WhiteRabbit
I'm kind of wishing I'd bought that £2 copy now...I was wondering whether someone might be able to do new hires scans of a couple of the images for a different perspective on the ghostly elements. This one and Houston especially. (I've always thought Houston had something unidentified in the trees.)
WhiteRabbit
I'm kind of wishing I'd bought that £2 copy now...I was wondering whether someone might be able to do
new
hires scans of a couple of the images for a different perspective on the ghostly elements. This one and Houston especially. (I've always thought Houston had something unidentified in the trees.)
Xieish
I have gone back and forth on anything aerial being in these paintings due to the availability of aerial shots/maps in 1981, so I'm asking this more out of ignorance and deferring to anyone who has been there.
This isnt the only way to get there, but the Cartier monument isn't very far from the legeater:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/g0N1S
If you look at the layout of the grounds:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/HWvWP
If the Cartier Monument itself were represented by the flower in the painting, the two other structures on the property would line up with the box containing the legeater/blob and the box containing the stylized "X" on the other side of the figure's lapel. The smaller appears to be a Gazebo. (Not Mcconnell Arena)
The building even has a distinctive "X" shape on its roof. I know there are elevation changes in Mt Royal park and in Montreal overall. Is this a possible "view" one could find while walking around?
What originally led me to this little pet theory is Verse 5, as the Cartier monument has a huge angel (I admit this is not a great solve for "A wingless bird ascended" but I do like it a bit more for "Born of ancient dreams of flight") and BENEATH, the figure of Cartier who is standing, while almost everyone around him (including the lions flanking the entire sculpture) are seated. There is also a forest to the south. *shrug*
On the backside of the monument are various statues holding hands, and it was my guess that a picture from the correct angle would reveal our figures hands to be two intertwined statues, creating an illusion.
edit: Here is an excellent shot:
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Ouest.JPG
See how all of the statues are holding hands? That man's flag is very intriguing to me as well...
tjgrey
Xieish wrote::
I have gone back and forth on anything aerial being in these paintings due to the availability of aerial shots/maps in 1981, so I'm asking this more out of ignorance and deferring to anyone who has been there.
This isnt the only way to get there, but the Cartier monument isn't very far from the legeater:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/g0N1S
If you look at the layout of the grounds:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/HWvWP
If the Cartier Monument itself were represented by the flower in the painting, the two other structures on the property would line up with the box containing the legeater/blob and the box containing the stylized "X" on the other side of the figure's lapel. The smaller appears to be a Gazebo. (Not Mcconnell Arena)
The building even has a distinctive "X" shape on its roof. I know there are elevation changes in Mt Royal park and in Montreal overall. Is this a possible "view" one could find while walking around?
What originally led me to this little pet theory is Verse 5, as the Cartier monument has a huge angel (I admit this is not a great solve for "A wingless bird ascended" but I do like it a bit more for "Born of ancient dreams of flight") and BENEATH, the figure of Cartier who is standing, while almost everyone around him (including the lions flanking the entire sculpture) are seated. There is also a forest to the south. *shrug*
On the backside of the monument are various statues holding hands, and it was my guess that a picture from the correct angle would reveal our figures hands to be two intertwined statues, creating an illusion.
edit: Here is an excellent shot:
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Ouest.JPG
See how all of the statues are holding hands? That man's flag is very intriguing to me as well...
Thanks for pointing this out. I like that monument. I wonder if any of the people are making the same shape with their hands as the elf thing in the image???
Also, I know I'm jumping to conclusions (no research on this at all), but there
does
look like there is a white (prominent) stone to the side of the monument...
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5144789 ... 3e11?hl=en
Has this been brought to the surface yet? I know you guys have covered about every corner of the continent
maltedfalcon
Xieish wrote::
This isnt the only way to get there, but the Cartier monument isn't very far from the legeater:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/g0N1S
yes we looked into the cartier monument heavily but I think at the time we were concentrating on verse 7
First Across
just above the monument up the hill is a large cross
and if you first came from the leg eater to the top of the mount, you would first reach the cross before reaching the giant pole of the cartier monument.
I forget what the results were when we examined it in light of the other verses.
other then we figured we needed someone actually onsite, with local knowledge.
erexere
I recall this scene in the pac-man game where you clear the first five mazes and it has an act where the red ghost chases after Pac-Man and snags his sheet on a nail, tearing a piece free and showing his bare leg. I'm toying with the idea that the blob is a tweaked hint for Pac-Man.
Merlot Brougham
erexere wrote::
I recall this scene in the pac-man game where you clear the first five mazes and it has an act where the red ghost chases after Pac-Man and snags his sheet on a nail, tearing a piece free and showing his bare leg. I'm toying with the idea that the blob is a tweaked hint for Pac-Man.
Kovy
Hello all,
I am a Montrealer currently living in the Golden Square Mile and have recently stumbled upon this quest. Just checking in to see if anyone else is still on the hunt!
Cheers
Merlot Brougham
Kovy wrote::
Hello all,
I am a Montrealer currently living in the Golden Square Mile and have recently stumbled upon this quest. Just checking in to see if anyone else is still on the hunt!
Cheers
Absolutely. What is the current status of the construction at the
new
Hotel Mount Stephen?
Merlot Brougham
Kovy wrote::
Hello all,
I am a Montrealer currently living in the Golden Square Mile and have recently stumbled upon this quest. Just checking in to see if anyone else is still on the hunt!
Cheers
Absolutely. What is the current status of the construction at the new Hotel Mount Stephen?
erexere
Who here thinks the background hides the word "Peel"? I don't...but I've been thinking about the sport of curling, popular in the Scottish highlands and the European lowlands. The glossary of terms for curling have the following:
Peel: A takeout that removes a stone from play as well as the delivered stone. These are usually intentional, such as for blanking an end.
Peel weight: A stone delivered with a heavy takeout weight.
erexere
Mr. Seabass, keep trying and eventually you might accomplish some form of actual communication.
Its been discussed that the "Peel" is a reference to a street name in Montreal. I'm wondering if the word might have a culturally specific appication. Opal is the Lowland Gnomes jewel, so it might be worth considering something based on ice skating or curling.
The legeater lamp has also been much discussed. Its a great find. The purpose of the lamp leg is still up to debate. I wonder if the leg bone of an animal as historically used to make ice skates could be applicable.
Merlot Brougham
Just so we're on the same page. This is portion of the image in question:
I know I've brought it up before, but the reason I've mentioned this potential explanation for the anomaly in the image is the "Peel" suggestion was given long before Montreal was on the radar, so there's much less confirmation bias involved since it was mentioned before anyone connected the legeater to Montreal.
At the very least it's something to think about. Do I buy it? Not necessarily. Does it matter in the long run? Probably not.
I think there are more important unexplained clues in Image 9, such as:
1. Why is the X on his upper chest badge (for lack of a better term) have lines of varying thickness? If I had better access to historic maps of Dorchester/Dominion square in Montreal, it might be telling.
2. What the hell is the blob? That's obviously important. Is it a treasure ground clue that offers a perspective of the brickwork on the Mt. Stephen Club from the view of the "correct" lamp post?
We know there are a total of 6 legeaters on the lamp posts in front of the Mount Stephen Club. Perhaps the above picture was simply taken from the wrong angle and the view of the buildings behind the proper lamp would reveal the match to the blob.
3. What are those bumps on his hat?
4. Does any of this all matter, shouldn't we be trying to match a verse to the legeater and the Mount Stephen Club since that is an obvious, very specific clue that is likely on the treasure ground? I would certainly "seek permission to dig out" at such a place.
4.5. Also, I've never seen too much enthusiasm on this point, but Preiss claimed the cultural connections were important to the treasures. For example, the Centaur being featured in the image 4 which led to the discovery of a cask at the Greek Cultural Gardens in Cleveland. I'm sure anyone reading this far already understands the importance of the Golden Square Mile and the Golden Square on Image 9's chest. That carry's over to Dorchester Dorchester Square, which features the Boer War Monument, a potential connection to the Dutch/Rembrandt theme of Image 9 that seems very similar to the themes used in the cask already discovered in Cleveland. I'm trying to provide some details without insulting readers' intelligence. If I was being cheeky I might even suggest that the gnome fingers in Image 9 mimmick the legs of the horse and the hands of his holder in the Boer war monument. I've been unable to find a picture from the right angle, but given the pictures available, it seems like there may be one. Very well could be/is wishful thinking, but an interesting theory that I haven't been able to completely eliminate due to the few pictures I have of the Boer War monument to Compare.
Maybe there's something that looks better from a different angle??
5. Yes I understand there may have been a couple of identical lamp posts that may or may not have made their way to North America but the only extant examples are in Italy. Even so, the latitudes and longitudes of Montreal are in Image 9, and beyond that Preiss said there's treasure in Canada, in no uncertain terms. I also think Image 9's collar is a Maple Leaf and there are many other things to solidify Montreal (the Golden Square Mile, etc, etc).
6. Does any of the above matter, since really, the legeater is so specific as to almost guarantee it is a treasure ground clue? The only alternative is going back to arguing about another legeater somewhere else. I really think this one is buried right at the Mt. Stephen Club. Once you narrow down Montreal given the coordinates, etc, everything in the clues leads you to the the Golden Square Mile and/or Dorchester square. At the end of the day though, the legeater is a couple of blocks away, still within the Golden Square Mile. I think Preiss wanted the clue designed to get you into Montreal, and then into the Golden Square Mile, from there, you have to use Verse #?? to guide you into the Mount Stephen Club.
The only other acceptable alternative, in my mind, would be to use the Mount Stephen Club as the exact starting point of the trail, and use the verse to get you from there to Dorchester Square. That seems very backward. I wouldn't think he'd expect you to just wander randomly around the Golden Square Mile until you find the legeater and then jump off on the verse from there. That makes zero sense. The legeater screams of being the X that marks the spot in Image 9.
The picture guides you into Dorchester, with the Dutch theme, etc., and then we need to use the Verse to take us to the Mount Stephen club a few blocks away.
erexere
Lots of good stuff there Merlot. Yeah, that's the page "we're" on. My only question at this point is when were you planning on telling us you are actually a Gnome?
erexere
Revisiting thre flower compared to stump shape on large tree,
erexere
Is it a calendula or a poppy?
If this image is for Canada, I think it makes sense as a poppy. Better yet, it workes well in the way both OPal and OPium have same starting letters.
erexere
Well, I dont think its a poppy. Calendula it must be. "Little calendar"...fitting for a Gnome.
JR Peraza
LINES 1-2: Starting @ the LegEater Lamp (Brooch/Pin on Image 9) on 1430 Rue Drummond, walk 2 blocks North to the Montreal Metro Peel Station and board the Green Line (i.e. “Lane”) going North towards Honoré-Beaugrand Station [Incidentally, this “Lane” is the only Metro Line that Zig-Zags in the exact shape of the neckline on Image 9]. Get off at the 10th Stop (i.e. “Roman Numeral X” of Brooch/Pin on Image 9) which is Pie-IX Station (i.e. Roman Numeral for Image “9”). This Station is named after Pope Pius the 9th and is centrally located between the 2 different sections of AutoRoute 20.
LINE 3: Upon exiting the Metro, you will immediately see the Olympic Stadium which is oval in shape (i.e. “arc of lights”). It was built for the 1976 Olympics (i.e. the hidden 7 & 6 in the “Flower” of Brooch/Pin on Image 9).
LINES 4-6: The Olympics were bittersweet (i.e. “Happy/Sad” Smile on Image 9). They were the 1st hosted by Canada, but were a financial debacle in addition to being Boycotted by 28 Countries. In fact, Canada completed paying its debts in 2006.
LINES 7-8: The Olympics included the Olympic Village, an imposing twin-tower structure (i.e. “Citadel”), built as the athletes' residence during the games.
LINES 9-10: The Olympic Stadium included an inclined Tower (i.e. “Wingless Bird”) that was designed to open/close the roof of the Stadium [Indeed, its graceful shape resembles the body of a bird without wings].
LINES 11-12: Immediately next door to the aforementioned Olympic sites, you will find the Montreal Botanical Garden (i.e. “Flower” of Brooch/Pin on Image 9). They were founded in 1931, on forest lands, by Brother Marie-Victorin [Indeed, the “Abbot” depicted in Image 9 really existed]. He is a very important figure in Canada’s Christian/Catholic history. He died in 1944 in a car crash (i.e. “Crushed” side of the “Abbot’s” hat in Image 9). There is only one statue on the grounds to commemorate him (i.e. “Beneath the only standing member of a forest”) that was unveiled in 1954. The statue is off to the side of the entrance of the Main Greenhouse (i.e. The Glass or “Opal Jewel” on the Abbot’s Hat of Image 9).
LINES 13-16: Walking exactly 44 feet [Perhaps an alternate answer for the 2+20+2 reference in Line 2] South of the Statue you will find Casque 9 is buried (i.e. “White stone closest…At twelve paces”). It is, indeed the only white stone in the cement floor, hidden in plain sight as seen in a picture of the Statue @
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Victorin_Statue
. You can also use Google Maps to zoom in and see it from above. Incidentally, the following picture of Brother Marie-Victorin illustrates how much he resembles the “Abbot” I Image 9:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Victorin_Kirouac
.
LINES 17-18: Getting permission to dig is going to be quite the undertaking in this Historical Landmark.
Egbert
erexere wrote::
Revisiting thre flower compared to stump shape on large tree,
I don't remember seeing this before. Where is that tree located?
erexere
That's the lumberman's arch tree in Stanley Park Vancouver BC
5tonJosh
A quick google search also shows that Stanley Park has lifesize checkerboards throughout.....
Hirudiniforme
Egbert wrote::
I don't remember seeing this before. Where is that tree located?
erexere
What happened to you 421? You use to be so awesome.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
:offtopic:
What happened to you 421? You use to be so awesome.
I got tired, and then I got awesomer.
erexere
And what happened to Egbert? Why would he be remotely interested in one of my fubarred pic manipulations?
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
And what happened to Egbert? Why would he be remotely interested in one of my fubarred pic manipulations?
Cause you are right, it's in Vancouver.
Egbert
I visit these boards every once in a while, but I usually don't have much to add. I was just very curious about that tree, because it does look like that flower.
However, I gave up on Vancouver a long time ago. Probably just a coincidence.
erexere
Egbert wrote::
I visit these boards every once in a while, but I usually don't have much to add. I was just very curious about that tree, because it does look like that flower.
However, I gave up on Vancouver a long time ago. Probably just a coincidence.
I say there's more evidence than just the legeater lamp to conclude there's a connection to Montreal, but I I think there's far too much in Stanley Park to brush aside as mere coincidence. I think verse 10 contains clues towards explaining this transcontinental paradox.
erexere
Sorry catherwood, I am going to let this image through because I fear nobody would click my link otherwise,
erexere
I think this couldve been discovered early on in this hunt. A good start to finding the right resource material to support further investigations,
erexere
The strangest coincidence struck me after I read the Little Mermaid by Hans. The story involves a mermaid who gets a magical "draught" from the sea-witch so that it can transform her fish-tail into a pair of legs. The conclusions that I've drawn for this puzzle involve recognizing a statue thats based on the Little Mermaid only it has a pair of legs and then we follow clues to a set of giant checkerboards. Another word for checkers is "draughts".
This puzzle is very visually deceptive. The background shape to the Legeater also fits a large art sculpture in Vancouver B.C.. In Montreal three legs of a creature have been transformed into a lamp. In Vancouver B.C. a tree has been cut down to produce the three-legged Lumberman's Arch. The cross-sectional view of its base looks similar enough to the flower pattern on the man's checkered robe. The "draughts" for the giant checkerboards were created from cross-sections of a tree. Thats the description I've read, anyway. The pieces look interesting from pictures, but I havent seen a good close up of them.
Btw, I still have no idea what the blob is. It looks like two things. A clover hides behind a blocky shape.
erexere
Unknown:
(1836)
FAR out in the ocean, where the water is as blue as the prettiest cornflower, and as clear as crystal, it is very, very deep; so deep, indeed, that no cable could fathom it: many church steeples, piled one upon another, would not reach from the ground beneath to the surface of the water above.
Another note about the Little Mermaid story. Someone here suggested at one time that the man's hands were posed in a way that suggested the steeple of a church. In the beginning of the story the depth of the ocean is described thusly,
Merlot Brougham
You forgot this:
hxxp://i.imgur.com/XbfmM0n.jpg
erexere
Merlot Brougham wrote::
You forgot this:
Do you have words in the form of a thesis or is a general outline of a map boundary a form of self-evidence?
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Do you have words in the form of a thesis or is a general outline of a map boundary a form of self-evidence?
WTF are you talking about?!?!!?!? It's like you just slap words together cause you have a keyboard and an outlet. Where is a shooting-self-in-face emoji when I need one.
Merlot Brougham
I think the evidence is strong for Montreal on this one, that's all.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
WTF are you talking about?!?!!?!? It's like you just slap words together cause you have a keyboard and an outlet. Where is a shooting-self-in-face emoji when I need one.
No, Im asking for a thesis, a word constructed point, a sentence that helps the image makes sense. WTF is wrong with you?
erexere
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I think the evidence is strong for Montreal on this one, that's all.
Thank you for that evidence. I agree that Montreal is important to the puzzle. As I hold the view that Vancouver B.C. is also important, I find it boggling to explain the transcontinental leap. The idea that George Stephen was a founder to the CP railway and Stanley Park has a miniature train in honor of that railway is something to consider.
erexere
I'm looking for concrete and literary clues. The constructive criticism is really lacking around here, the trolling and off topic tone in these forums really sad.
Does the man look similar enough to Hans Christian Anderson to consider his Fairy Tales have potential to be utilized by Byron Preiss in staging a casque?
Do the man's hands look like a church steeple?
Does the first sentence in Hans' Little Mermaid spark interest, since it also talks about church steeples?
Has Byron Preiss used literary clues in the other puzzles such that we can take this approach seriously?
My thesis is that the "draught" used as the trasformation device in the Little Mermaid is the inspiration for Byron Preiss to use a giant checkerboard and its "draughts" in the solution to finding the treasure ground.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
I'm looking for concrete and literary clues. The constructive criticism is really lacking around here, the trolling and off topic tone in these forums really sad.
Does the man look similar enough to Hans Christian Anderson to consider his Fairy Tales have potential to be utilized by Byron Preiss in staging a casque?
No.
Do the man's hands look like a church steeple?
No, but it is the commonly known ending gesture of "here is the church, here is the steeply..."
Does the first sentence in Hans' Little Mermaid spark interest, since it also talks about church steeples?
No.
Has Byron Preiss used literary clues in the other puzzles such that we can take this approach seriously?
Yes.
My thesis is that the "draught" used as the trasformation device in the Little Mermaid is the inspiration for Byron Preiss to use a giant checkerboard and its "draughts" in the solution to finding the treasure ground.
I would like to have a draught or two, and then check the Little Mermaid's treasure ground for barnacles.
erexere
Streeply? First I've heard of that.
I've always heard "steeple" which rhymes with "people".
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Streeply? First I've heard of that. I've always heard "steeple" which rhymes with "people".
That's because you've always heard it correctly. I spelled it incorrectly in my hasty trolling... which rhymes with tasty bowling... which kinda looks like testie bowling... gargle deez.
Hirudiniforme
MrSeabass wrote::
What the f**k does Vancouver have to do with any of this?
Seriously. What the f**k.
Why not find connections with toronto? Or Edmonton? Or hell Paris? WHY ARE YOU NOT LOOKING AT ALL THE CONNECTIONS TO ADDIS ABABA, ETHIOPIA?
Because Addis Ababa, Ethiopia is not a port town. Don't be dumb.
Merlot Brougham
Sorry, I was posting that from work earlier today on break, so I didn't have time to provide the full thesis. Here's the scoop.
- Byron Preiss said there is a treasure in Canada.
- Image 9 is the only image not fairly narrowed down to a US City
- Many of the images feature an outline of the state or regional geography (Roanoke, Charleston, Manhattan, Ohio, Illinois, Florida, Golden Gate Park)
- It seems reasonable that Image 9 is likely to contain something similar, such as a pretty good eastern Quebec Border in addition to Montreal itself in his hat and the river/islands in his mouth.
- The legeater is an inarguable exact match and no other similar lamp post has been found in North America, and it was specifically custom made for that mansion, so it's unlikely this was some stock mold and there are a legeaters all over the continent. I've spent
shitloads
of time on this specific angle,
not
using hamfisted research techniques like "HAY GUYZ, I just discovered The Secret and emailed Mr. Palencar for details..."
- The legeater was discovered in front of the Mount Stephen club before a lot of the "regional" clues were discovered in the image
- Extrapolating from what is likely a treasure ground clue, we can see what Preiss uses to guide you in, in the image.
- The gnomes right collar, our left, looks like a maple leaf.
- I fancy (and it might be a stretch) that his left collar, our right, is the top of a fleur-de-lis. Each collar representing the dichotomy of Anglo/Franco Montreal which also - might explain that weird ass "this is a mirror image" theory on the Oregonian wiki. I would suggest the same "theme" is being used in Image 12 with the Ishihara test and the notion of a blending of cultures. Eric, you wax philosophically all the time about Preiss' mindset and what the fair folk were thinking. I would suggest they were thinking about living in peace and harmony amongst other cultures and what better city to put it in than Montreal, particularly in the early 80's. The fair folk wanted peace, love, and devil's lettuce (deliberate Oxford comma there).
- The Legeater in Image 9 is Inside of a Golden Square. The Lamp post legeater in front of the Mount Stephen Club is within the Golden Square Mile.
-Altough the lumps on the gnomes hat are an enigma, You can see that it is as close to an outline of the island of Montreal as the flipped Illinois in Image 5. Same goes for the gnomes Mouth.
-We can argue about the numbers and map coordinates hidden in the image, but the people arguing against Montreal are looking for a reason to have it not be in Montreal because the numbers are there. Even if you think the numbers are ambiguous, you have to do some serious mental gymnastics to get coordinates for anything in the Pacific Northwest out of Image 9.
- I can provide more detail with additional clues which I think put this cask firmly in Montreal if necessary.
Here's my wild defection: Maybe we need to look at another verse.
I'm reconsidering the "fact" that Verse 10 is solid for New York. Why does he spell "grey" with an E? I've tried exploring the idea of the Grey Cup (the Canadian football league's championship trophy).
Also, the Sarmiento quote in verse 2 that we link to New Orleans. He was talking about a hotel that was built to model St. Peter's in Rome. The Cathédrale Marie-Reine-du-Monde adjacent to Dorchester Square, still within the Golden Square Mile, and breaking through the border, just like the legeater in image 9, is a scale Model of St. Peters. Dorchester Square also has the Boer War monument in it, which would serve as a connection to the Dutch theme of the image. I think maybe exploring some different verses is the direction to go rather than suggesting this cask is buried anywhere besides Montreal. Also, if you think his hands look like a Steeple and are looking at the religious theme, then why not connect it with the Cathédrale Marie-Reine-du-Monde?
A few things to think about. But yes, I think that is a hidden image of the province of Quebec in Image 9, which means it cannot be in Vancouver. Thus endeth the lesson.
P.S. Im using my extremely long and girthy e-peen to try and re-open the SA thread, which quite honestly provided quite a few of the more recent groundbreaking clues. And hopefully Xie will resurface and tell us what he has to say about the Boston hunt.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Here's my wild defection: Maybe we need to look at another verse.
Very nice analysis, MB. Thank you. However, there is very little doubt in my mind that we have the right Verse/Image pairings (and no doubt that we have the correct cities), so the statement quoted above is one of the few things on which we disagree. FWIW.
Merlot Brougham
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Very nice analysis, MB. Thank you. However, there is very little doubt in my mind that we have the right Verse/Image pairings (and no doubt that we have the correct cities), so the statement quoted above is one of the few things on which we disagree. FWIW.
I am largely agreed, but I leave the door open a tad bit is all. I think the general accepted theories are mostly spot on.
My main issue is this. I was born in 1981 and have lived in the same general area my entire life. When I look at the radical changes that have occurred here, I fear for the recovery of any cask that requires the counting of Birch trees that existed in the early 80s.
decibalnyc
Merlot Brougham wrote::
My main issue is this. I was born in 1981 and have lived in the same general area my entire life. When I look at the radical changes that have occurred here, I fear for the recovery of any cask that requires the counting of Birch trees that existed in the early 80s.
The answers are all in Milwaukee. AP and I found them...you gotta search for them. That however is a conversation for Verse 8 thread.
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
- The legeater is an inarguable exact match and no other similar lamp post has been found in North America, and it was specifically custom made for that mansion, so it's unlikely this was some stock mold and there are a legeaters all over the continent.
Actually I agree with 99% of your post except the above.
The Legeater was a stock item available in the company catalog as a lamp base, while you could mix and match post styles ,the legeater base was stock and "mass produced" at least as much as lamp posts are mass produced at a foundry at that time.
So yes I am actually surprised that after researching it we have only found the one.
I believe others existed at some point. but the question is , is this the one in the image. (I think so)
but I have always said finding this lamp base in another city would turn this image / verse on it's head. and then all un-used verses would be up for grabs regardless of peoples pet theories.
though until we find another, it seems to me the image/city/verse combinations have been set quite firmly.
Merlot Brougham
maltedfalcon wrote::
So yes I am actually surprised that after researching it we have only found the one.
I believe others existed at some point. but the question is , is this the one in the image. (I think so)
but I have always said finding this lamp base in another city would turn this image / verse on it's head. and then all un-used verses would be up for grabs regardless of peoples pet theories.
I would respectfully disagree about the image, but I definitely am open to experimenting with alternate verses.
The only other image that I don't feel is 100% rock solid in the accepted theory is Image 11, but then you have verse 3 that just screams Boston.
So where do you go from there, knowing that there is a treasure in Canada? Please don't say Stanley Park.
I am sold on the Quebec map in Image 9. The Golden Square Mile is absolutely huge to me. The other chatter recently about SELOY being deliberate or not reminds me that I think it would be a gigantic coincidence that there just happens to be a legeater inside of a golden square (Yes I realize it's not actually square in image 9), but it actually represents some yet to be discovered legeater in some other city that probably isn't even a port. I'm looking at you St. Louis, and yes, I subscribe to the "Port City" hypothesis for where the casks are buried
I already talked about Verse 10 in connection with Image 9, but I have yet to find satisfaction in why he spells "grey" with an E. More generally speaking, and I'm just spitballing here, but I've always had a nagging feeling about the "simple roots" being a hint that it's buried in a Square. Be it Dorchester, or Lafayette or otherwise. The fact that Image 9 relies heavily on the checkerboard (square) patterns and uses the golden square to feature the Legeater, telling us to look within the Golden Square Mile once we arrive at Montreal.... I don't know, that's quite a run on sentence. But it reminds me of the "Brush and Music, Hush" technique. You're not literally looking for a brush, just like you aren't literally looking for a "root", it's just generalizing the local geography and telling us it's buried in some municipal town square somewhere. Again, just kind of brainstorming so I apologize if that doesn't make sense.
I also find myself coming back to the Sarmiento quote from time to time. How do we feel about Preiss' intentions on this one? Did he really expect an early 80's crowd to find that, figure it out and know that it was a quote by Sarmiento referring to the Hotel in New Orleans, thus matching the verse and image? Or were we supposed to take it at face value and extrapolate the "sovereign people" to be a hint at the Quebecois? I mentioned it recently, but the Cathédrale Marie-Reine-du-Monde (On Dorchester Square, within the Golden Square Mile in Montreal) is also a scale model of St. Peter's Cathedral, just as the St. Charles Exchange Hotel which Sarmiento is referring to in New Orelans. I have trouble with the idea that Preiss would ask us to go that far in the early 80's to find his hint that it is New Orleans based on that quote. Maybe I'm wrong. Take it or leave it, just a little stream of consciousness there.
And a more general comment for all, with no intention to piss in anyone's Corn Flakes. I'm disheartened by a lot of the recent speculation about connecting the story to the treasure location. Preiss said in no uncertain terms, as I understand it, that the only things that are important to find a cask are the verses and the images. Nothing in the rest of the book is valid or should be used to construe direction in finding treasure.
erexere
I had this idea a long long time ago, but search revealed nothing specific to this, so here it is,
Interpreting the man's smile as a visual "mood swing" from happy to sad, I think that's not a bad case for looking into the history of Port Moody where George Vancouver was first to land in 1792.
WhiteRabbit
Merlot Brougham wrote::
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Preiss confirmed to Egbert that the nationalities were involved in the locations. Since the nationality is established directly by linking the month and birthstone of the image to the relevant couplet in the litany, this is tantamount to confirming that the litany holds clues.
All that's been posted on this forum concerning that, is that he told Eg that nothing following the verses was relevant. The story, like the litany, precedes the verses.
Egbert
Egbert wrote::
(cont'd from above)
Andy and I absorbed a lot of information that B.Preiss had told us about The Secret. I hope I can recall all of it for you here:
1. The Chicago casque was found by 2 young stockbrokers, who lived in Chicago, and had recognized some of the sites and verse references right away. However, at the time, there was some type of renovation occurring, in which a large marble or concrete object had been placed over the burial site. So, they took a picture of it, and sent it to B.Preiss, who acknowledged that as soon as the renovation was finished, the treasure was theirs. He doesn't recall meeting them, doesn't have a copy of any newspaper article, but does recall that an article was run in one of the major Chicago newspapers at the time. Flipping through the book, B.Preiss told us that "M and B" stand for Mozart and Beethoven. "Ten by thirteen" refers to feet. "Brush" refers to the Art Museum.
2. I thought that most of the colors on my casque had been washed away, except for 1 creature that I thought looked like an imp. However, none of the 12 casques were fully painted. They were left unpainted, except each one had a different figure painted (there are 12 figures on the casque). My figure is actually the front of a centaur, which is of course contained in the Cleveland pic. B.Preiss did not recall what had been painted underneath the cover (which is in many pieces), but he believes that it may have said "The Secret." Each key looks the same, but they are different colors (mine is orange).
3. B.Preiss had buried all of the casques over the course of only several days --- carrying all of them in a large duffle bag, and armed with a shovel. He researched the sites generally from New York, but then researched each site locally once he got there. He took pics of all of the sites. After they were all buried, he created the puzzles and had John Palencar paint the pics (B.Preiss worked with him to guide J.Palencar as to what to put into the pics). After that, he purchased the jewels, all from 1 jeweler.
4. From the Cleveland pic, he said that we got all of the clues. "Birch" referred to a birch tree that had been there. "Couplet" had referred to a nearby poem (although Andy and I do not recall any nearby). "Free speech" refers to Socrates.
5. B.Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations. However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites. He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have NO connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues.
6. This last part will sadden quite a few of you. Mr. Preiss would like it to be known that he will no longer respond to emails regarding proposed solutions (or asking for hints) --- and that he will only respond to actual pictures of casques. I am sad to report that he is a busy businessman, and this is not very important to him any more. I would like to point out, however, that although getting the jewel and meeting B.Preiss was nice, the best part of my adventure was solving the puzzle, traveling to Cleveland, and finding the treasure. You should keep in mind that you are doing this to achieve a personal satisfaction --- solving a 22-year-old conundrum --- and not just to get a jewel. The journey is more fun than the destination.
I hope I remembered everything --- if I think of anything else, I'll let you know. Good luck in your quests.
For those of you who don't feel like digging through 1000s of pages, here is a reprint of my thoughts after speaking with BP. This, and a lot more, can be found in the thread called "Cleveland."
erexere
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I'm reconsidering the "fact" that Verse 10 is solid for New York. Why does he spell "grey" with an E? I've tried exploring the idea of the Grey Cup (the Canadian football league's championship trophy).
The spelling of grey may have something to do with a British perspective. I noticed my early edition of Sherlock Holmes stories by Arthur Conan Doyle spelled it with an E. I dont think the puzzle has anything to do with sports.
I'm warming up to the notion that the Calendula flower as a symbol for grief might participate in the idea that th8ngs have some bearing on mood.
forest_blight
Egbert wrote::
4. From the Cleveland pic, he said that we got all of the clues. "Birch" referred to a birch tree that had been there.
BP refers to birches more than once. Part of me wonders if he really knew what a birch tree looks like. Might he have confused a birch with something else, like sycamore? If we had a photo of the Chicago casque site from c. 1981, maybe we could see the tree in question, identify its species, and thus know what to look for in Milwaukee.
decibalnyc
Or maybe it's a puzzle
decibalnyc
Hirudiniforme wrote::
(Posted image)
Sounds like they put in enough time to figure out SOME things right. I wouldn't say they were way off point.
Nyarlane
First time posting... I'm the unicorn guys... I live in Montreal, and I'm available to investigate plausible theories!
One thing I try to keep in mind while deciphering the image is "simplicity". BP thought this would be solve easily, so I doubt there's extended history search or cryptic readings of smudge in the background.
IMO, the image is connected to Montreal because of the numbers hidden in the flower: 67 (Expo 67, the International exposition of 1967 held in Montreal), and 76 (The Olympic of 76 were held in Montreal).
Now, for the hands, I have a simple theory. Montreal's most known landmark is Mont-Royal, which is a mountain with a cross on top. I think that's what the hands represent: a cross, a mountain... and 2 awkward fingers?
Theories I got but are probably too far fetched (but who knows, might inspire a more elegant solution?):
I don't know if the months are really important or not, but October is an historically important month, because of the Octobre Crisis. (Interesting note who brought me to investigate this treasure but probably has nothing to do with anything, the Octobre Crisis started in 1970 with the kidnapping of James Cross from 1297 Redpath Crescent, in the Golden Square Mile, at the feet of the mountain).
The checkerboard pattern is so prominent in the image, I can't believe it wouldn't have a meaning. I discovered that a very important
chess tournament was held in Montreal in 1979
. The contestants lived at The Meridian Hotel... in the Golden Square Mile (but then again, most nice hotels are in that area...). Montreal is also known for his Grand Prix (checkerboard flags!) but it started in 1984 only... our most known Formula One driver, Gilles Villeneuve, was at the peak of his career when the book was written (of course there was no commemorative park or such since he only died in 1982...).
The connection with the Dutch origin is an enigma to me. Montreal doesn't seem that connected to the Netherlands... I searched for the Netherlands pavilion at Expo 67, but it's not on site anymore. No obvious parks either that commemorate a Dutch person. Mystery.
Some people on the PB wiki mentioned the possibility of the Ernest Cormier Esplanade as a digging spot... Went there and learned it was constructed in 1990.
I also visited the Percy Walters Park, and couldn't find enough evidence connected to the verse or even the image (except for the striking Trafalgar School for girls) to warrant to dig. Though the Trafalgar School is far from being the only building in the area with the stair shaped facade. The most prominent one would be the Hospital Royal Victoria.
Can't connect any Arc or lights, or Wingless bird to the city...
There is however a Tiffany store in the area, if the connection with the verse 2 is still plausible.
I'm pretty obsessed now and I try to put myself in the shoes of Byron Preiss, as a visitor of Montreal and someone who planned all this from a distance... what would catch is eyes (considering also that he wouldn't have access to Internet).
erexere
Double Life Theory: P9 V10
Stanley Park Map Ideas
This deserves some serious consideration. I call it the Double Life Theory for it's relevance to the poet Pauline Johnson, aka Tekahionwake (translates to mean "double-life"). Her mother was English and her father was Dutch-Mohawk. She was born in Brantford, Ontario and her grave is the only established grave site in Stanley Park, Vancouver B.C. There are many great books and about 100 poems by her. A mix of considerations bring some connection to this idea of "double-life".
1) Hans Christian Anderson's tale of the Little Mermaid is about the youngest daughter of the Sea-King who seeks to live a double life. A powerful "draught" tranforms her tail into a pair of legs so she can be as a human on land and meet a young prince. The first sentence of the story talks about measuring the depth of the ocean by stacking church steeples. P9 shows a man making steeples with his hands and IMHO is a caricature of Hans Christian Anderson.
2) The first line of V10 is also the same title as a poem by Pauline Johnson. She writes often about shadows in Legends of Vancouver and talks about Native gods/chiefs that were transformed into large distinctive rocks formations. There is Homolsom rock at Point Grey and Siwash Rock at Ferguson Point. Siwash looks very similar to the outline of the collar in P9 which also has features similar to the map of Montreal.
3) "Double" jumps are used in the game of checkers. V10 tells us to go twice as many steps as the hour to see simple roots. There is a landmark named "9 o'clock". See map. It looks like a doubling of the distance from the 9 o'clock Gun to a spot just outside of Brockton's Cricket Oval will take you to the Giant Checkerboards. Checkerboards are made of squares. "Square-roots" are the lowest order or simplest root in math.
When you look at the map link I've provided, there are some shockingly intense riddles.
"Or gaze north to the isle of B."
Based on the legeater lamp, having three legs, I was tempted to consider the three legged symbol for Isle of Man. The captial of Isle of Man is Douglas, thus the last line gives us the name of Douglas B. and with a lot of luck, someone can learn from some archive that Douglas Brown commisioned the "Girl in Wetsuit" to mimic the Mermaid of Copenhagen. I find it absolutely compelling that the Isle of Man is considered to be named for Manannan Mac Lir, the King/Son of the Sea. This looks like as good as it gets to work with the Little Mermaid motif.
"You'll often hear a whirring sound"
I think this fits just fine with a word definition where whirring means a repetitive, low, continuous sound when you consider the Brockton Oval is a large cricket playing field. I think the jewel position adjacent to the oval shaped caricature of Hans Christian Anderson.
I'm still very puzzled by how to interpret things in a linear fashion. I'm unsure if we're being told to dig near the checkerboards or near a spot where you look north at the Girl in Wetsuit sculpture. I don't know what the "middle of one of the branches of the v" points us towards. I'm still overwhelmed by more questions than answers. I don't see myself traveling to Vancouver anytime soon. I'd like to see some feet on the ground if anyone knows anyone local.
erexere
Note: I've been very curious about a the Netherlands invovement in the Carribbean. Mainly the Dutch West Indies, but also the Danish West Indies. Both established settlement and trade in the West Indies in the early-mid 17th century.
One of the nuances in the pairing with verse 10 is the use of the word "Or" in the beginning of a couple lines. "Ore" are the coinage term for their "pennies" in Denmark. Ore are also a source for native metals. A Danish scientist and friend of Hans Christian Anderson was Hans Christian Orested. He was one of the first people to discover how to extract Aluminum from Ore (bauxite?).
Orested also discovered Piperine, an alkaloid found in peppers.
My theory as it happens to involve the giant checkerboards on Pipeline Road has me tempted to wonder if Piperine is a suitable gleichwort.
erexere
I'd love to inspect the sources of this recent publication on Hans Christian Andersen: European Witness, by Paul Binding. This Scooby-snack of a passage popped up in a Google search, (I was excited when I saw words like "shadow" and "giant"...*sigh*)
erexere
Pauline Johnson loved Stanley Park. A favorite activity of hers was to paddle her canoe named "Wildcat" around Lost Lagoon. Her poem "In the Shadows" is a nice short read. I noticed the words FLOAT in the 6th stanza and CANOE in the 9th as they are letters found in the acrostic of verse 10. The letters are a bit mixed up, so I played with it like a jumble:
I O F E I Y C A N S T O T O F O L A I O T
I F
Y CANOE IS
T O T O O
I FLOAT
Line in 6th stanza: WHERE
I FLOAT
.
Line in 9th stanza: M
Y CANOE IS
GROWING LAZY,
The letters that don't seem to fit a fragment of the poem: IFTOTOO. TO I FOOT? TO IOO FT?
The legeater looks spot on for being a wildcat eating a foot.
DanaSkully
I believe that visual cues send us to Dorchester Square fka Dominion Square in downtown Montreal.
The Square is flanked on one side by the Sunlife Building (Metcalfe St.), and by Windsor Hotel (Peel St.) on the other.
Here is an album I compiled with visual cues from Image 9:
hxxp://imgur.com/a/6V7Xb
Merlot Brougham
Nyarlane wrote::
First time posting... I'm the unicorn guys... I live in Montreal, and I'm available to investigate plausible theories!
One thing I try to keep in mind while deciphering the image is "simplicity". BP thought this would be solve easily, so I doubt there's extended history search or cryptic readings of smudge in the background.
IMO, the image is connected to Montreal because of the numbers hidden in the flower: 67 (Expo 67, the International exposition of 1967 held in Montreal), and 76 (The Olympic of 76 were held in Montreal).
Now, for the hands, I have a simple theory. Montreal's most known landmark is Mont-Royal, which is a mountain with a cross on top. I think that's what the hands represent: a cross, a mountain... and 2 awkward fingers?
Theories I got but are probably too far fetched (but who knows, might inspire a more elegant solution?):
I don't know if the months are really important or not, but October is an historically important month, because of the Octobre Crisis. (Interesting note who brought me to investigate this treasure but probably has nothing to do with anything, the Octobre Crisis started in 1970 with the kidnapping of James Cross from 1297 Redpath Crescent, in the Golden Square Mile, at the feet of the mountain).
The checkerboard pattern is so prominent in the image, I can't believe it wouldn't have a meaning. I discovered that a very important
chess tournament was held in Montreal in 1979
. The contestants lived at The Meridian Hotel... in the Golden Square Mile (but then again, most nice hotels are in that area...). Montreal is also known for his Grand Prix (checkerboard flags!) but it started in 1984 only... our most known Formula One driver, Gilles Villeneuve, was at the peak of his career when the book was written (of course there was no commemorative park or such since he only died in 1982...).
The connection with the Dutch origin is an enigma to me. Montreal doesn't seem that connected to the Netherlands... I searched for the Netherlands pavilion at Expo 67, but it's not on site anymore. No obvious parks either that commemorate a Dutch person. Mystery.
Some people on the PB wiki mentioned the possibility of the Ernest Cormier Esplanade as a digging spot... Went there and learned it was constructed in 1990.
I also visited the Percy Walters Park, and couldn't find enough evidence connected to the verse or even the image (except for the striking Trafalgar School for girls) to warrant to dig. Though the Trafalgar School is far from being the only building in the area with the stair shaped facade. The most prominent one would be the Hospital Royal Victoria.
Can't connect any Arc or lights, or Wingless bird to the city...
There is however a Tiffany store in the area, if the connection with the verse 2 is still plausible.
I'm pretty obsessed now and I try to put myself in the shoes of Byron Preiss, as a visitor of Montreal and someone who planned all this from a distance... what would catch is eyes (considering also that he wouldn't have access to Internet).
This is a great post. I must have missed it when you first posted. Unfortunately, I don't have the time at the moment to give this the response it deserves, but I'll put something together. I've spent most of my time on Image9/Montreal and would like to discuss a few angles. There's some additional Montreal chatter in some other threads right now too, so I'm trying to put some thoughts down.
For now though, I would just like to again push my pet theory that the Boer War Monument makes a good Dutch connection. As I understand it, it is the only equestrian statue in Montreal. It also serves to feed into the "horse hoof" imagery on the actual legeater.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Mount Stephen Club was the destination and likely treasure ground, not the start.
I've been supportive of the idea that considering alternate verses may be the direction to go.
Anyway, I have some posts on SA and here discussing some things I've come up with. I'll try to put together some things that relate to some of the points you're making above.
edit: In skimming back, I realized this was getting cut off. Apologies:
Merlot Brougham
Nyarlane wrote::
First time posting... I'm the unicorn guys... I live in Montreal, and I'm available to investigate plausible theories!
I do have a specific request, Unicorn, if you would indulge me I would be much obliged. I know it's been mentioned and speculated before, but is there any way you would be willing to get a proper count and arrangement of the stairs at the entrance to the Mount Stephen Club?
It would relate to:
15 rows down to the ground
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
Only three stand watch
Three legeaters per lamp, each with one "standing" hoof.
Any assistance you would be able to lend would be appreciated. I hate to sound like I'm just barking demands here. Like I've said, most of my time on The Secret has been on Image9/Montreal. Happy to discuss any theories or prove I have enough skin in the game to try to talk you into doing my bidding.
p.s. Still working on a proper response to your earlier post. Just lots of theories and info over time. Trying to weed through it. And by weed, I of course mean the devil's lettuce.
Also, nobody has ever been able to explain the "blob" behind the legeater in image 9.
There's this one that kind of does it justice, but obviously not a match:
Is there any angle/perspective at the mount Stephen club where you can look through a legeater similar to the picture but find something that matches better for the blob? I'm not sure how much of this is even possible with the recent construction.
Nyarlane
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I do have a specific request, Unicorn, if you would indulge me I would be much obliged. I know it's been mentioned and speculated before, but is there any way you would be willing to get a proper count and arrangement of the stairs at the entrance to the Mount Stephen Club?
Unfortunately, the Mount Stephen is currently under huge renovation, and the whole place is impossible to explore/see... I thought of taking a picture, but it looks worse than it does on Google Earth: big signs in front of the building to hide the renovation... I couldn't even see the lamps, and it even looked like they might have been taken down (gasp!).
Next time I'm in the area, I will take a picture and look more closely with your request in mind to guide my observations (it gets a bit overwhelming on the field...). I'll also stop by Dorchester park
I'm looking forward to read your thoughts and theories you are compiling!
erexere
Is it known that BP's"St. Louid" response was directly relating to johann's use of this image, but unknown as to which verse?
Merlot Brougham
In my opinion, this is by far the most important thread on this forum in terms of recoverable casks and us to apply the correct verses.. I'll wait for the response to the question.
erexere
A good friend of mine tells me he thinks johann emailed Preiss about P9 paired with V6 when he got the st. Louid response.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
A good friend of mine tells me he thinks johann emailed Preiss about P9 paired with V6 when he got the st. Louid response
And your good friend would know this how, exactly? While Johann himself mentions trying to make V6 work with the city of St. Louis (Verse 6 Thread; Page 5), most of the compelling evidence gleaned from his other posts suggests that he was getting the most traction using the Verse 2/Image 9 connection, and it's that solve that he most likely sent to Preiss, eliciting the St. LouiD comment. It was scottrocks7 who was championing the Verse 6/Image 9 connection for Forest Park in St. Louis, way back in 2008, but if anything ever became of that, he didn't say. His last post was in September, 2009.
erexere
johann wrote::
I have tried several pic/verse combinations in the last year, and I have used a shovel at least 3 times. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Yet, I know three places the treasure is not. That means something, although it is discouraging. Byron Preiss did confirm that verse 7 is NOT for St. Louis. He was probably tired of my solutions.
Wilhouse does imply a necessary point. We cannot ever assume we are right until we have a treasure in hand. However, we cannot ever assume we are wrong. I know that we all know this, and I do not intend to be condescending, but it seems to me that the two hardest factors of this hunt are: matching pic and verse, and wanting to find/make a solution.
I will pursue the verse 6 idea, since it seems most promising so far. I will also strongly consider image 9 while trying to keep my mind open to other possibilities.
I see my friend isn't as well informed as I had thought. You're right, johann did put significant effort in working with Verse 2. I found this post from May 19th, 2004 where he says Verse7 is NOT for St. Louis, but nothing that definitively states which Image/Verse pair was involved when Preiss responded about his being correct about st. Louid, only he had the wrong location. I wonder if P9/V7 was the focus on that particular correspondence. Johann probably abandoned V7 and switched to V2.
TexWriter
I have seen no one comment on the totem poles in this image. Am I the only one that sees them?
erexere
I don't see them. Can you describe where you're looking?
TexWriter
There are two distinct totem poles (for a lack of a better description). You do know this is two pictures combined into one right? You have to create the two original images from this one image. Now this does not mean he literally painted two physical paintings but it is amazing how Palencar concealed this in the painting. I would love to see the original paintings.
As mentioned earlier here or on another forum, you can use a mirror and create a left mirror image and a right mirror image to get the two different images, one smiling and one frowning. I used photoshop to create the images. Split the image down the middle of his nose. One image has no hands, the other has 4 hands. Once you have these two images, zoom in on the center of either one and you will see the images that go from the top of the page to the bottom of the page. They are not crystal clear but they are definitely there.
Here are my photoshopped images. On the frowning picture the right half is one pixel out of alignment but does not distort the hidden images much. I need to go back and fix that some time but it works for me like it is.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128861399 ... res/JqQ0GE
TexWriter
And to throw another kink into the puzzle, I have a hard time getting the numbers to match up with Montreal. I can get 46 and 47 but that is the quadrant above Montreal. I cannot find a 45. But then again, those numbers that yield 46 and 47 can also yield 40 and 41. The symbols in the box above the legeater could be 79 or 97. If it is 79 I can get 80 in several diferent ways from the center of the flower. So, those degrees take us to Pittsburgh PA! And to top it off, the curvature on the top right half of the hat matches the Ohio and Monongahela rivers exactly. This may all be perfect nonsense but it all can be read in the picture. I'll stick with Montreal myself until I can get more evidence to make me think otherwise. (Looking for a legeater candelabra in Pittsburgh)
erexere
Im not seeing the totem
pole
shapes yet. I like the idea though.
erexere
Im not seeing the totem pole shapes yet. I like the idea though.
TexWriter
Hmm, this casque has obviously been moved to Palermo Sicily now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu09fYE1xyQ
Brochure on the park says the posts were cast at a foundry a couple of blocks away. (Fonderia Orotea)
At least I now know there are more of these than the two in Montreal still in existence.
WhiteRabbit
TexWriter wrote::
I have a hard time getting the numbers to match up with Montreal. I can get 46 and 47 but that is the quadrant above Montreal. I cannot find a 45
I know what you mean, but I eventually decided that this was good enough.
73 and 45. It's not very legible in the scan, but you can convince yourself from the book.
forest_blight
Unknown:
Hmm, this casque has obviously been moved to Palermo Sicily now.
How on earth did you find that...?
TexWriter
I asked for help on my Facebook account if anyone had seen a lamp post like that in the US and one of my friends sent it to me. She didn't look at it closely to see that it wasn't in the US and just sent it on to me. I think she said she Googled lamposts with horselegs or something similar to that.
Merlot Brougham
TexWriter wrote::
I asked for help on my Facebook account if anyone had seen a lamp post like that in the US and one of my friends sent it to me. She didn't look at it closely to see that it wasn't in the US and just sent it on to me. I think she said she Googled lamposts with horselegs or something similar to that.
There was quite a bit of discussion about these Palermo legeaters on the SomethingAwful thread. To my knowledge, the Mount Stephen Club examples are still the only known ones in North America. There are some compelling hooved lamp posts in other parts of Montreal and North America in general but nothing else I've come across that matches the legeater.
I do believe the legeaters in Image 9 are depicting those at the Mount Stephen Club given the amount of other evidence in Image 9 pointing to Montreal, and in more specific detail, the Golden Square Mile.
for comparison on artistic license used when drawing these maps and what constitutes a "match"
CMSCHUT
I'm not buying the use of mirrors on the pictures . None of the others required more than the picture itself for the solve .
Merlot Brougham
I tend to agree. I am not a huge fan of the "this is two images combined" theory either, or the confidence with which it is espoused over at ye olde wiki.
erexere
Obviously some mirroring is used. It seems to be a trivial detail that would easily be recognized. Using an actual mirror isn't required, but using the flip/rotate tools on the image might help our eyes/brains spot something that is being hidden in that way.
The shape of the state of Illinois in image 5.
The G and h in Image 1.
The shape of Parkgate Ave. in Image 4.
The subject itself of image 10 uses a lot of symmetry, not so much an effect of mirroring. It seems to be telling us there's something important about squares or a checkered pattern.
Merlot Brougham
erexere wrote::
Obviously some mirroring is used. It seems to be a trivial detail that would easily be recognized. Using an actual mirror isn't required, but using the flip/rotate tools on the image might help our eyes/brains spot something that is being hidden in that way.
The shape of the state of Illinois in image 5.
The G and h in Image 1.
The shape of Parkgate Ave. in Image 4.
The subject itself of image 10 uses a lot of symmetry, not so much an effect of mirroring. It seems to be telling us there's something important about squares or a checkered pattern.
True, but my point was more along the lines of how I didnt buy that you have to split image 9 down the center and reflect it wholesale to get either the "smiley gnome" or the "frowny gnome". I think that tactic is relatively meaningless.
Obviously some of the states (IL) and shapes (Terminal Bldg. ) are flipped or turned in some of the images, that is not in dospute.
erexere
"Hands" Christian Andersen??
erexere
Does anyone recall or know exactly by what process ravel07 was led to find Montreal's legeater?
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
Does anyone recall or know exactly by what process ravel07 was led to find Montreal's legeater?
This is the relevant page...
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&p=42831#p42831
Forest suggests a lat/long for Montreal. ravel07 says he lives there and offers to help. Three months later, he chances on the legeater while out for a walk.
erexere
I've done as much research as I could on the Vancouver B.C. area and shared a lot of thoughts on the Opal puzzle already, but only now is it starting to make sense. There's still work to be done and there's several problems to manage, especially given that there's little agreement on how to solve these puzzles.
Image 9 + Verse 10: Vancouver B.C.
Begin with the fact that Image 9 holds the Opal, the jewel of the Lowland Gnomes and described in the Litany of the Jewels as "a cloud of shining, shifting smoke", and the term Lowland is typically associated with either Holland (Netherlands) or Scotland (to differentiate the Lowlands from the Highlands).
In terms of looking for a connection to Holland, Vancouver makes the most sense of anywhere for a couple reasons:
1) Van-couver. The word
"van"
is typically used in names or as a preposition for "of" or "the" in the Netherlands.
2) The word 'Holland' according to the Oxford source for word origins has listed that
Holland
is derived from
hol land
("hollow land") and was inspired by the low-lying geography of Holland and this might identify well with a feature in Stanley Park, Vancouver B.C. known as the
"Hollow Tree"
.
Image 9 features a caricatue of Hans Christian Andersen with his fingers and hands positioned as in the church-steeple-see-all-the-people. Given that he is a well known fairy tale writer, it's possible Preiss wanted to honor him with one of the puzzles. Andersen is from Denmark, just northeast of Holland, so regionally speaking he and his stories are a prime candidate choice for the Lowland Gnome puzzle. The very first sentence of
The Little Mermaid
story by Andersen talks about how the deep ocean couldn't be measured by stacking many church steeples. This then compels us to wonder why The Little Mermaid might serve as an inspiration for this puzzle.
A sculpture in Stanley Park,
Girl in Wetsuit
is closely based on the
Little Mermaid of Copenhagen
sculpture made in honor of Hans Christian Andersen.
The first line of verse 10:
In the shadow
, points us further in the direction of HC Andersen if we read his short tale
"The Shadow"
, in which a learned man becomes separated from his shadow. His shadow travels and learns about the world and returns to show his former self that he has become as much a "man" as he. It gets married to a woman and has his former self executed.
Preiss uses these literary references to help us understand the nature of this puzzle as it's based on duplicates or things which are "evenly split". After pondering the Shadow for some time and thinking about the idea of measurement by stacking steeples, I started to understand the principal theme of this puzzle involves splitting things up evenly, which brought a common idiom to mind known as "going Dutch".
But wait...what about the
Mount Stephen Club
in Montreal? What about all the other clues that people have determined MUST fit Image 9 and Verse 5, etc.? Doesn't that contradict everything I've put forth? Short Answer: it depends. Most of peoples insights have been brought forth from a process of combing the region, which is essentially a random or scattered way of picking and choosing details almost completely from highly selective visual interpretation and for some odd reason people seem utterly satisfied to think the puzzle puts you in the Golden Square Mile and are ultimately remiss to explain how anything makes sense as a whole. Scraping together a bunch of crumbs doesn't make a sandwich. Following the crumbs is what we're meant to do. This three-legged lamp, shaped as a cougar eating the leg of it's prey, on the front steps of a Scotsman and founder of the Canadian Pacific Railway, was selected by Preiss in accordance with a theme. What characteristics of this lamp and it's location in Montreal so far away from Vancouver B.C. could possibly his design?
It's split evenly into three legs. It's the head of one creature, eating another creature's leg. It's an easy tie to the CPR, first transcontinnental railroad taking people from Montreal to Vancouver. If we liken it to the idea that the Girl in Wetsuit is a replica knock-off of the Mermaid in Copenhagen, then we might recognize that there is a miniature replica train which includes CPR No. 374 in Stanley Park, Vancouver B.C. We might also recognize that "three legs" is a symbol that appears on the flag of
Isle of Man
just west of Scotland.
The last line of verse 10:
Isle of B
, just might connect to man responsible for installing the Girl in Wetsuit sculpture His name: Douglas Brown. The main character of the Shadow is only referred to as "the learned man". This "man" is an important clue for the Isle of B. The capital city of the Isle of Man is Douglas. Thus, the replica mermaid sits on the Isle of Brown.
Some other features in Stanley Park provide much interest. The grave of poet E. Pauline Johnson of Mohawk-English decent, named Tehaniawake which means "double-life" is in Stanley Park. There are three giant checkerboards next to Pipeline Rd. just west of the Miniature Train.
I'm not really sure where to dig yet, but I have some ideas. Any help figuring out the Vancouver location would be appreciated.
erexere
My theory on Canada is troublesome. The thought process so far,
1) look at image 9 and think fairy tale author Hans Christian Andersen
2) see the steeples game in his hands and think "first sentence of the Little Mermaid"
3) consider Little Mermaid landmark in Copenhagen and think Girl in Wetsuit in Stanley Park, Vancouver B.C.
In a secondary process, look at verse 10,
4) the first line "In the shadow" may have something in common with an HCA story titled "The Shadow", but also to be considered is a poem by Pauline Johnson (buried in Stanley Park) titled "In the Shadows"
I think Pauline Johnson is very important to this puzzle as her native name Tekahionwake translates to mean "double life", which is essentially the core plot element in both HCA stories. The Little Mermaid has one life in the ocean and another on the surface. The well read man in The Shadow lives a quiet life in solitude while his shadow goes out to live and experience the world.
cobbelpot
(1.Lane)
Road, street, highway.
(2.Two Twenty Two)
220 x 2 = 440 (Maybe route NY440 , NJ440)
(3.You'll see an arc of lights)
Possibly the Bayonne Bridge its the shape of a Arc and its route NY440 & NJ440 ) Or the Holland tunnel
(4.Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls)
The Palisades Interstate Park Commission was created in 1900 by the states of New Jersey and New York to protect the cliffs of the Palisades, an internationally significant geological formation. Palisades Interstate Park, stretching 12 miles north of the George Washington Bridge, was dedicated in 1909. To further protect the Palisades, a narrow strip of land at the summit going west from the edge of the escarpment and running the length of the park, was purchased by John D. Rockefeller and donated to the Commission in 1933. Existing buildings along the summit were removed to return the tree line to its unbroken natural state, followed in 1948 by construction of the Palisades Interstate Parkway, complete with overlooks and service buildings, hidden from view among the trees. The parkway was completed in 1958, since which time the Palisades have stood pristine, surrounded on both the New Jersey and New York sides by some of the densest development in the world.
Hudson Palisades NY/NJ
(5.Wind swept halls)
maybe the George Washington Bridge
(6.Citadel in the night)
??Little Red Lighthouse In George Washington park (under the bridge)??
(7.A wingless bird ascended, Born of ancient dreams of flight)
Destiny was on Commander Frank Erickson 's side in December 1943 as he started the world's first helicopter school at Floyd Bennett Field. Floyd Bennett Field only airfield with alot real Helicopter history.
Bennett Park is really close to the Little Red Lighthouse. Bennet park is build on the old Fort Washington (citadel)
(8.Beneath the only standing member, Of a forest)
?? ??
(9.To the south, White stone closest, At twelve paces , From the west side)
But there is a small white square tile in Bennett Park(The Highest natural point on Manhattan)
There is also a Fort Washington memorial in Bennett Park( Maybe this is 8, the white tile is a little to the south)
Painting clues
76 - 1776 Battle of Fort Washington
Fingers - Maybe the highest point (in Bennet park)
P 1 - President 1? George Washington
Locations:
hxxp://i.imgur.com/eTBZNZp.jpg
Most people look for this one in Canada. I believe alot of Greeks traveled to Cleveland and Irish/Scots to Chicago, i'm from the Netherlands so for me it has to be somewhere in New York. (Canada is also not America thats also why i tried NY)Russians maybe in Chicago.
WhiteRabbit
cobbelpot wrote::
Canada is also not America thats also why i tried NY
Hi cobbelpot - welcome to the forum...
For info, back in 2003, Preiss replied to an email asking about Canada by saying: "yes, there is a treasure in Canada".
Another indicator for Canada is a lamppost in Montreal which is apparently depicted in this image, and has been found nowhere else.
That's why Montreal is the current favourite for this image.
WR
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
In an email in 2003, Byron Preiss responded to an enquiry from a searcher, saying: "thanks! yes, there is a treasure in Canada."
Way back, someone suggested Montreal as a possibility, and a local subsequently found the "dogleg" outside the George Stephen house in Rue Drummond.
This is a definite match, and it seems to be unique; no-one has ever found another. So for this reason Montreal is still the favourite for this image. However, unlike most of the other images, it's never been tied down to a particular verse or park; it's still wide open. And it might not even be Montreal, though the dogleg is pretty convincing.
The artist Palencar was from Cleveland, and suggested the location of the Cleveland casque. The editor Sean Kelly was from Montreal, so I'd have thought that he might at least be able to confirm whether BP hid a casque there, but I've not heard that anyone has ever contacted him. I think it's worth trying. (As for Palencar, he's made it quite clear that he doesn't want to be contacted and won't say anything.)
I put together an idea based on the nearest park to Rue Drummond, Park Percy Walters, which you might have seen, but there was no convincing evidence, and there's good reason to link the verse I used (V2) to New Orleans instead (as it contains an obscure quotation relating to that city).
A certain amount of attention has also been focussed on Ile Sainte-Helene, with connections like a racetrack (chequered motif? Proximity to Habitat 67?)
No plausible interpretation of any verse in terms of Montreal has been found, though the Wiki is as good a place to start as any.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com
(At one time me and another searcher were also interested in the area around the Royal Victoria Hospital,which has links to George Stephen.)
The best chance of a breakthrough is recognising a reference in the verse or image that's never been spotted before. Most of the images have been linked to a particular verse and park with a high degree of certainty, the problem in several cases being that the park (Lake Park in Milwaukee, Hermann Park in Houston) has since changed beyond recognition. So it ought at least be possible to tie this one down a bit more.
The image isn't giving much away, though those knotted fingers look as if they might be hiding something.
This discussion must have more pages and less useful content than any other thread on the forum.
I recently heard from someone who is interested in the quest and will be in Montreal for a few days from this weekend. I sent him this summary. If anyone has anything they'd like to add, or would like to see photographed / dug up, I can pass it on...
morpheus221
Hello. Relatively new to this forum but here is a thought on Montreal:
At the place where jewels abound (Redpath Museum, McGill University, contains collections of minerals)
Fifteen rows down to the ground (15 stairs in front of museum)
In the middle of twenty-one (location of casque)
From end to end (?trees that encircle park next to museum)
Only three stand watch (three bares statue)
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours (college students)
Here is a sovereign people (reference to Canada)
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night! (nearby Windsor Hotel, closed in 1981)
Gnomes admire (reference to gnomes/opal jewel in book, p.21 ?image to verse)
Fays delight (?three bares reference again)
The namesakes meeting (Mount Stephen Club, named after George Stephen)
Near this site.
Not clear if there are any visual images in the picture that support this location. There are buildings on Pine Ave that appear to have the "staircase" roof design.
Delilah84
Hi, I'm actually in Montreal and will be until October. I'd love to meet someone interested in going through the Montreal path for this treasure. Or just let me know if you want me to go somewhere to collect picture or exploring places. Bye!
erexere
Hi Delilah84, welcome,
I'm not a big fan of Montreal as many have proposed, because the book describes how the Fair Folk first got settled in the new world but when the first white settlers arrived many Fair Folk migrated once again to new areas. I believe there are Montreal clues, just like there are New York or Florida clues, but those are just indicators of the first settlments.
I could be wrong, so I'm still interested in finding more clues in Montreal like the infamous "legeater" at the Mt. Stephens Club. I'm curious if you might come across any large tree stump features like this one, which I think looks something like the flower like shape on the mans robe.
chouin_dav
Hi everyone, (I'm french speaking, mostly, sorry for the bad english)
I learned about this quest last week, been really hook about it since. I'm living in Montreal and ready to explore a few things during my free times if any path to explore seems "credible". Just let me know.
With all the clues in the image pointing to Montreal, I took some time on my own this weekend to explore a few clues that can be found in verse 5. In the 70s and 80s, Parc Jean-Drapeau and Ile Ste-Helen was one of the cool place to visit in Montreal. With Expo67 a few years before and everything. So i'm confident that the casque is hidden on Ile Ste-Helene.
Anybody ever heard about Tour de Lévis ? An old water tower on this island...
Lane
Two twenty two
(the address, or at least old address of Tour de Lévis is 220, chemin du Tour-de-l'Isle...)
You'll see an arc of lights
(From the top of it, you can see the whole city of Montreal. Maybe this ? Or the rotating light on top of Place Ville-Marie that can be seen from almost anywhere even miles away from the city.)
Weight and roots extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls
(the tower is made of granit. Information about the tower here;
hxxp://patrimoine.ville.montreal.qc.ca/patri_municipal/fiche_bat.php?batiment=oui&requete=simple&id_bat=9999-24-0025-01
)
Wind swept halls
Citadel in the night
(The tower is part of an old fort, with a citadel :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_de_l%27%C3%8Ele_Sainte-H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne
)
A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight
Beneath the only standing member
Of a forest
Only standing member of a forest ? Look at the tower from far away, looks like the only standing member in a forest to me !
To the south
White stone closest
At twelve paces
From the west side
Get permission
To dig out.
Anyway, just a theory. But i'm planning on going for a walk around it this weekend. I'll take some photos !
WhiteRabbit
Sounds interesting, good luck with it.
I don't think the tower resembles the "only standing member of a forest", but it's also an odd way to describe a tree, so I think the jury's still out on that line.
It's curious how several of the verses sound as if they might be describing a tree; sometimes in a slightly ambiguous way, but real trees featured in the locations of both the solved casques. Maybe the whole puzzle was based around trees.
"Socrates, Pindar, Apelles / Free speech, couplet, birch"
(According to Eg, "Birch referred to a birch tree that had been there.")
"The end of ten by thirteen / Is your clue"
(Apparently rows of trees.)
"Walk 100 paces / Southeast over rock and soil / To the first young birch"
"Behind bending branches / And a green picket fence / At the base of a tall tree"
"What we take to be / Our strongest tower of delight / Falls gently"
(The original goes: "What we take to be our strongest tower of delight, only stands at the caprice of the minutest event — the falling of a leaf")
"Beside the long palm's shadow"
"From the middle of one branch / Of the v / Look down / And see simple roots"
Delilah84
Hi again,
I find this new interpretation interesting, I would love to see those places with my eyes.
I'm new to Montreal and even new to this continent, I just landed from Europe less than a month ago. That's also why I've just lurked from afar never getting inside the discussions, it was meaningless to me trying to decipher something in a place I though I could have never seen in person. But here I am, I know very few things about the lines and my English is not that good to understand them all. But I really would like to take a little part in this adventure, even if it was just for a day.
@erexere, I'll keep my eyes open for that shape, maybe there's a cut tree near the location chouin_dav is pointing out.
@chouin_dav, I don't want to be rude and auto invite me, so I won't take offence if you just decline, but would you want some company for your exploration this week end? I'll be busy for part of the Sunday but will be free on Saturday and Sunday evening. I'm new in town and know nothing. I speak French. Well, not Quebecois but it's still something!
Let me know =)
Cheers!
chouin_dav
Yes, it will be great to have a partner in this adventure. Not sure if i'll go this weekend because of the rain but i'll let you know ! You can write me in private so we can share our contact info maybe ?
chouin_dav
Just another remark about Image 9 verse 5.
Born of ancient dreams of flight
There's 2 bridges to access Ile Ste-Helen and Ile Notre-Dame. Jacques-Cartier Bridge but it's the other one that's interesting. Pont de la Concorde (Concord bridge in english i guess). Concorde, just like the Concord type of plane.
This bridge was built in 1965 especially to provide a new path to access the islands from downtown to Expo67 activities.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pont+de+la+Concorde,+Montr%C3%A9al,+QC/@45.5081163,-73.5368792,16.54z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x4cc91ae4b67f3bbf:0xe92e773bd6ff025!2sPont+de+la+Concorde,+Montr%C3%A9al,+QC!3b1!8m2!3d45.5074129!4d-73.5353629!3m4!1s0x4cc91ae4b67f3bbf:0xe92e773bd6ff025!8m2!3d45.5074129!4d-73.5353629
marcomcarneiro
Hi everyone,
I live in Montreal and was introduced to the quest by a friend a few months ago. I've read all this thread, but have been just silently watching it here, while looking for clues around Montreal, anything that could spark a new clue.
This weekend, I went to visit the Biosphere, the sphere shaped building, built for the Expo '67. There one can find some pictures from the Expo, and then I saw this (can't upload pics, board quota was reached):
https://goo.gl/photos/QRLNgyaEWKWgQCax8
I really thought it could mean something, since the checkers pattern is there - and is not Purina, at least on this example.
However, I haven't seen this building, and I've drove through that bridge several times, so after a quick research I've found out that the building was demolished on early 1970.
The only information I could find was in French, links below.
hxxp://www.journaldemontreal.com/2015/02/28/camping-expo-67
hxxp://archivesdemontreal.com/2013/07/25/du-camping-dans-la-metropole-1955-1967/
It's not as meaningful as it would have been were it still there in 1980, but I thought sharing it with you may (or may not) help with future investigations.
Thanks y'all,
Marco
erexere
Im still working on this angle on this sculpture.
bnutb
In my opinion, however, this part of your point is way off.
Everybody's opinion on almost everything erexere has ever posted.
darkplacehospital
I saw a legeater lamp, two actually, in Brooklyn, New York. They're in front of the old Williamsburgh Savings Bank right near the Williamsburg bridge. Unfortunately I couldn't get a picture, I was in a car with other people when I saw it and we had places to go so I had to be on the move, but it's there. Not any really great pictures online and the google maps stretview for it is blocked due to construction but here's a very low quality picture I found online.
This building is very interesting, it has many parallels to image 9. For instance the way the sun hits it creates shadows that make the building look checkerboarded just like the man's clothing in image 9.
Also worth noting that it's patterned above the doors covered in Xs just like on his shirt and there is flower reminiscent of the one in the image on the top left part of the building. And there is a prominent steeple just like he is making with his hands.
I had to leave New York about 2 hours after seeing this so I didn't get back for a better look. Is there anyone there who can check out the building and the surrounding area?
Egbert
Nice find!
Also interesting - it was registered in the US National Register of Historic Places on April 9, 1980. That would be right around when BP was hiding treasures. If this building is one of his clues, he would have picked it because he knew it could not be torn down once it was registered as historic.
Egbert
Never mind. Close, but no cigar. Scroll down this page and you will see a closeup of the lamp.
hxxp://weylin.com/about/restoration/
Merlot Brougham
darkplacehospital wrote::
I saw a legeater lamp, two actually, in Brooklyn, New York. They're in front of the old Williamsburgh Savings Bank right near the Williamsburg bridge. Unfortunately I couldn't get a picture, I was in a car with other people when I saw it and we had places to go so I had to be on the move, but it's there. Not any really great pictures online and the google maps stretview for it is blocked due to construction but here's a very low quality picture I found online.
Interesting. It looks like those lamp posts are paws, though. Not hooves like featured in the clue or at the Mt. Stephan Club. The only known hooved, matching legeater(s) besides Montreal is/are located in Italy.
There are a few known examples (some even in Montreal) of pawed lamp posts that have been uncovered.
forest_blight
I wish I could be on board with this (especially because of the NYC / Dutch connection!), but I just can't. The legeaters just aren't a match. The ones at the Mount Stephen Club are a 100% exact match.
vs.
BTW, the facade and steps area (including the lamps) of the Mount Stephen Club underwent some major renovations last year, according to Google Street View. Is everything important still in place??
forest_blight
Oops, looks like our posts crossed in the aether.
marcomcarneiro
forest_blight wrote::
BTW, the facade and steps area (including the lamps) of the Mount Stephen Club underwent some major renovations last year, according to Google Street View. Is everything important still in place??
Yes. It is now a bar/restaurant and hotel. I've had lunch there not long ago. Couldn't spot anything relevant, but took several photos of the place (it's opened to visit).
If anyone is interested to check what it looks like inside:
https://goo.gl/photos/772AscoNSssBQDE87
Façade is still exactly the same from all I can tell.
Merlot Brougham
marcomcarneiro wrote::
Yes. It is now a bar/restaurant and hotel. I've had lunch there not long ago. Couldn't spot anything relevant, but took several photos of the place (it's opened to visit).
If anyone is interested to check what it looks like inside:
https://goo.gl/photos/772AscoNSssBQDE87
Façade is still exactly the same from all I can tell.
Thank you very much for sharing these photos. Nothing stood right out while you were there in reference to the image 9 blob, I take it?
marcomcarneiro
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Thank you very much for sharing these photos. Nothing stood right out while you were there in reference to the image 9 blob, I take it?
Unfortunatelly not
Delilah84
Hi Guys,
I've finally found the time to share with you some pictures that a friend of mine and I have been checking lately.
Someone came out with the interesting theory that the treasure could be on Montreal's St. Helene Island.
Well, the one in the picture is actually Ile de Sainte Helene, just upside down. Don't you think there's an impressive match with the man's collar? You can match it with nowadays google map's image and with satellite's pics from just before the Montreal's Expo in 1967.In the third image with the red line there's also a bend on the collar which could match with a little street right next to the one marked.
What do you think?
Also, referring to the poem, I wanted to point out, in case it could be of help, that two twenty two in French (Montreal's first language) would be "deux vingt deux", whose pronunciation sounds like "dévant de" which means "in front of".
Checkered patterns have been said to look like checkered grand prix flags. Flag in French is "drapeau". The park on St. Helene's island is parc Jean-Drapeau.
I thought that the wingless bird could be the Concorde plane, whose shape is peculiar and "less winged" than other planes. We have Concorde Bridge which links the island to Montreal.
"Lane" can be translated as "circuit" and we have Villeneuve Circuit on the island.
I've been visiting Lévis tower and the nearby area but couldn't find anything else relevant. The tower should have been part of a citadel in the past. There's a cannon museum on the island and cannons could look similar to the little thingy next to the legeater in the picture. No white stones next to the tower, apart from some guardstone bollards which probably haven't been there forever.
This is just a sort of brainstorming, everything that I've been thinking about in my last months here in Montreal.
I hope these pictures could be of help. I'll be here in Montreal until the 6th of October. I'd love to meet some of you and go visit the island if you think it could be relevant.
This last one is just for fun, I've been there today and I was shocked seeing the actual size of the legeater (which I've been waiting for years to see in person!)
I look forward to meeting you or discussing here!
Chiara
jayheedan1
The hand gestures looks like one of Auguste Rodin's works called "The Secret." An exhibit of his work is at the Montreal Museum of Art, not far from the George Stephan House with the leg eater lamp.
His works could possible be referenced in other images as well.
https://arthouse-online.nl/en/rodin-and ... 55284.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=rodin+t ... HijL3VQvyM
:
Dorchester Square? The paving could resemble the checkered pattern on the coat.
erexere
This is cool. Thanks Jay.
I still feel compelled to wonder if image 1 links to the the three shades of Adam and the Thinker in SF. A fun idea to wonder about from pop culture if you ever watched Godzilla films is the character Rodan looks like a giant dragon. It is the dragons pearl after all...
WhiteRabbit
jayheedan1 wrote::
The hand gestures looks like one of Auguste Rodin's works called "The Secret." An exhibit of his work is at the Montreal Museum of Art, not far from the George Stephan House with the leg eater lamp.
Interesting idea; I like that.
JamesV
It's an odd resemblance for sure. There's also a Rodin museum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania--I haven't been to PA in years, but I think parts of that state are called "Dutch Country" due to the number of German immigrants who settled there.
Hirudiniforme
Fenix wrote::
ur block/blob thing near the legeater was a fleur-de-lis in the original painting.
But, but, but Palencar just got an envolope full of shit and made a picture out of it.
Hirudiniforme
Fenix wrote::
Now the bigger question...
Finally, somebody asking the right questions.
burnstyle
The few paintings we got to see were so much clearer and brighter than the current scans as well.
WhiteRabbit
Yeah, wow, well spotted. We can finally stop looking for a match with the darn thing.
I don't know how useful it'll be as a clue since they seem to appear everywhere, eg right by the legeater.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@45.49932 ... 312!8i6656
(I don't have access to images from the show at anything like that resolution, just dodgy YouTube clips, so more screen grabs would be nice.)
morpheus221
Could there have been a printing error when the image was published in the book?
WhiteRabbit
My bad - shoulda known better.
All the same, it appears there was a fence in
1989
- it would interesting to see what that looked like.
Merlot Brougham
I'm not part of any sooper secret Secret groups, so the Fleur de lys is news to me. I also haven't watched the Expedition Unknown episode yet. Can someone fill me in? Now the cat's out of the bag, has that been well known in the shadows for a while or is this a real scoop? I never felt the need to personally harass Mr. Palencar to satisfy my treasure hunt urges. I spent most of my time on Image 9 in correspondence with antique lamp post dealers and the like.
If this was a Twister analogy: did Cary Elwes' team of really cool Tornado hunters use their connections to hoard that information from those of us that are still jump starting Bill Paxton's Dorothy machines?
erexere
Wait a minute...what's a Bill Paxton's Dorothy machine?
Merlot Brougham
erexere wrote::
Wait a minute...what's a Bill Paxton's Dorothy machine?
It's a clue that is directly related to uncovering Image 9, dumbass.
Serious answer: Have you never seen Twister? They're a plucky, resourceful storm chasing team that uses junk drawer inventory to follow tornadoes and make their machinery, while they compete against the evil corporate funded storm chasing team captained by Cary Elwes. Their hardscrabble home-brew tornado tracking machines are named "Dorothy".
catherwood
I am stunned by this fleur-d-lis reveal. Could it be that this was an oversight in the final version? Did Byron make an editorial decision to remove the symbol, but forgot to clean up the image? I am grateful for the information, whatever the reason behind it.
Merlot Brougham
catherwood wrote::
I am stunned by this fleur-d-lis reveal. Could it be that this was an oversight in the final version? Did Byron make an editorial decision to remove the symbol, but forgot to clean up the image? I am grateful for the information, whatever the reason behind it.
He thought the clue would make it way too obvious so he did a little razzle-dazzle before it went to print?
Hirudiniforme
Merlot Brougham wrote::
He thought the clue would make it way too obvious so he did a little razzle-dazzle before it went to print?
Indeed. He couldn't have possibly put something obvious in there, like a fence or a wall. Including those things would make the puzzle too easy. Right?
Merlot Brougham
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Indeed. He couldn't have possibly put something obvious in there, like a fence or a wall. Including those things would make the puzzle too easy. Right?
Sorry I was so stupid about the point I was trying to make. I realize it was very obvious but I just wanted to make sure the peons had a breadcrumb or two.
E: See, that's funny because you always suggest having some secret Secret knowledge that I don't quite understand.
WhiteRabbit
Just being whimsical, but...
...that fleur-de-lis fence again...if you compare the one that's there now with the one that was there in 1989, they seem very similar. I'm wondering if it might even be the same fence. I've emailed them to ask if they have any info; no reply yet.
Wouldn't it be nice if the deleted fleur-de-lis was the indicator for the dig spot, removed because it was too obvious...
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Is that fifteen steps...?
Only three stand watch
Here is a sovereign people
(Does
this video
show a Royal visit at 1.33...? They have a ballroom called Salon Elizabeth; just wondered randomly if that might have been named after the Queen or something.)
davinci4
If nothing else, the fleur-de-lis confirms the Montreal location. Wonder how common this symbol is in the city.
davinci4
Hello. I had not seen this site proposed as a solution before. Figured I would put this out there.
Looks like I can post here now. I posted this in another forum and wanted to get the groups thoughts. Some visual confirmers, I should mention including the
aforementioned leg eater statue, the newly discovered fleur-de-lis (symbol on the Montreal flag), and the 'staircase building design' present on several buildings at McGill University nearby on Av de Pins. Would love to know from anyone in Montreal if there really are 21 trees surrounding the park. Hard to tell on google maps.
At the place where jewels abound (Redpath museum, McGill University, home of collection of minerals)
Fifteen rows down to the ground (15 steps in front of the building, excluding the top platform)
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end (?trees surrounding neighboring park, location of casque)
Only three stand watch (three bares statue)
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours (college students after class)
Here is a sovereign people (general reference to Canada)
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night! (Nearby Windsor Hotel)
Gnomes admire (direct reference to jewel “image to verse”, see page 21 in book)
Fays delight (three bares statue reference)
The namesakes meeting (mount stephen club, george stephen house)
Near this site.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
E: See, that's funny because you always suggest having some secret Secret knowledge that I don't quite understand.
I don't understand Eric either. Nobody understands Eric. I don't think Eric understands Eric. Having said that, and I mean this in all sincerity, I have learned more from Eric and his ramblings, than just about any other poster on this board. Truth.
Hirudiniforme
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I don't understand Eric either. Nobody understands Eric. I don't think Eric understands Eric. Having said that, and I mean this in all sincerity, I have learned more from Eric and his ramblings, than just about any other poster on this board. Truth.
While I agree with your sentiments about Eric, I believe he meant for “E” to mean Edit. To that end, I’ll say this:
I don’t have any super secret knowledge, per se. I have theories that I prefer to explore privately for reasons that by now should be obvious. But mostly, I do this because I have been on this board long enough to know that you just can’t tell anybody anything without some degree of proof. They are too stuck in their ways, and they will always find a way to argue that their “way” is better than your “way”. In my opinion, the better “way” will only be revealed when another casque comes out of the ground.
I've literally tried to solve these puzzles a hundred different "ways," each time coming up with solution(s) that were logical, contextual, playful, and defensible... I "knew" I was at the right spot. I've dug dozens of holes in more than half of the cities, each time having to come back to the drawing board. In the end, I started to realize I was no better off than Eric, and that my "ways" were no better than his, generally speaking. We both "knew" we were right. Now clearly there are better guesses than others (initially, anyways); but, at the end of the day, if I am missing the spot by 5 feet in FOY, I might as well be in Oregon, cause the casque ain't at either of those two spots.
Another thing worth mentioning is that while being wrong is hard, it is almost more valuable, if not more valuable, than being right. Why is the casque not where you thought it was... your solution (as well as many of Eric's) works, right? This is probably the single most important question I ever asked myself: What makes one solve better or worse than a competing solve, when all the "clues" are used in a logical manner?
So, to the extent that I have a secret, the direct response to that question is, IMO, the most important secret to keep.
I realize this might come across as smug, and doing exactly what I troll others for (i.e., "I've found it, I just can't tell you where"), but I swear it is a plea for more thinking/discussion of ideas on the board and not reinforcement of solutions.
"A little digging is your task." - Byron Preiss
Erpobdelliforme
This ^ I understand.
forest_blight
Stunning find, Fenix! Just wonderful. But Where did you find this image?
It was certainly a confirmer for Montreal or maybe the casque site (there is a fleur-de-lis just feet - metres? - from the lamp). It is very good to know the blob is just a blob and not an object we need to find.
Some theories:
1. The fleur-de-lis was obscured because the hint was too strong, and BP did not want to make it too easy.
2. This is not the France image -- that would be P7. The fleur-de-lis is strongly associated with France so maybe he wanted to remove the ambiguity of having it in another image.
erexere
R: You made my day.
I've been thinking aboot that fleur-de-lis for a couple days now. I have no strong opinion to offer. It could be a generic item. It could be a specific visual. It could be redacted to avoid confusion with the French themed puzzle. Whatever the case, we still have no idea what that blob is really all aboot.
Carry on.
drunknerds
Great work on this fleur find.
Is there a chance Preiss was afraid people would see the legeater and the fleur, and start digging up that flower bed behind the fence at Mount Stephen House?
WhiteRabbit
drunknerds wrote::
Great work on this fleur find.
Is there a chance Preiss was afraid people would see the legeater and the fleur, and start digging up that flower bed behind the fence at Mount Stephen House?
I'd still like to confirm whether that fence in 1982 did have the fleur de lis, or was the same one that's there now; seems possible. Emailed the place on the
[email protected]
address, no reply.
WhiteRabbit
JoshCornell wrote::
its possible, but only an idiot who could not follow the puzzle to its completion and ignored have the damned verse would ever do that...
Unknown:
I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.
- Cromwell
Hence evil spirit, begone to the place of something-awful-ness.
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I'd still like to confirm whether that fence in 1982 did have the fleur de lis, or was the same one that's there now; seems possible. Emailed the place on the
[email protected]
address, no reply.
Nice job emailing them. I never think to reach out. Here's a GIS image of the place, labeled 1984
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/e6/dc ... 567d31.jpg
WhiteRabbit
JoshCornell wrote::
right, cause theres totally a white stone that you can make paces from on the south side of something...totallllllllyyyyy
Sure...when you can match that verse to Montreal as well as it's been matched to Charleston, call me.
WhiteRabbit
JoshCornell wrote::
wait so you think the mtl verse relates to charelston? no dude. that is insanity
Now Mr Cornell, with due respect you are in no position to challenge others on the matter of sanity.
drunknerds
So, as per the rules, I read the whole thread... I don't recall seeing this, although I'd be shocked if it wasn't in there, because it's pretty easy to find. So, sorry if this is a retread.
I'm trying to "walk" from Mount Stephen (legeater) to the Trafalgar school for girls (step pattern near collar). After passing Mount Stephen, the very next building is this:
https://imgur.com/lWcIv2y
Note the brown x's on a gold background:
https://imgur.com/lWcIv2y
Maybe even the bricks match the weird shift pattern, in that it's three lines, then three perpendicular lines. But... ehhh I feel like I might be reaching.
https://imgur.com/urB22vM
But we are all well aware that Preiss liked to put on-the-way clues in the verse and picture. Feel free to join me, tonight, as I continue my "walk" (google satellite), looking for other stuff.
drunknerds
JoshCornell wrote::
or what? no need to wade through all the bs rampantly insane theories. there are loads of threads in this section. i can make one if i want. gfy troll
plus i have a bunch of additional info to include.
You're both right:
On the one hand, Seabass is right, it's actually like the first rule in the "READ The RULES" thread. I will be the first to admit it's a pain to read a whole thread, but it's the only known way to stop a bunch of retreads slowing the search down (hey, I said "retreads" don't call me out for hate speech, lol)
On the other hand, Seabass, he's posting in the correct thread and being constructive & positive. Let's encourage that.
Cornell, I'd be shocked if GSM was a red herring, seeing as how there are like 100 golden squares in the picture.
drunknerds
Okay, we're at the first intersection. We can go left along New House boulevard or straight along Drummond.
I don't see anything along New House, so let's go straight.
Here is the view from the intersection, facing left down New House. Let me know if I missed something:
https://imgur.com/GyVe2aj
drunknerds
Remind me what the name for the islands are, again? I know it's been mentioned, but I'm doing some complicated job training and drinking while I do this search (hence my name)
drunknerds
JoshCornell wrote::
I'm definitely right about the runes...it directs our focus to RUE PEEL. RUE PEEL IS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE PUZZLE.
Aw dang, I solved it in a similar way, but I got RuPaul as the key to the whole puzzle. This explains RuPaul's confused dm's to me over the past decade
WhiteRabbit
JoshCornell wrote::
my Charelston theory is THE BEST STANDING THEORY on the internet hands down.
I'm not convinced. For instance, how about:
Citadel in the night
In Charleston, there's this.
(OK, I don't know when that logo dates from or where it appeared. But that's a citadel in the night.)
In Montreal, you suggest this.
It's some random turret. There are millions of them; they're everywhere. Why is that a citadel in the night...?
No reason, except that you've already made up your mind about the location, so you latch onto some random object that kind of matches. If the clues are as vague as that, there's no chance of anyone solving it.
(I'm not saying that's the right verse, but I prefer to stay open minded about the combinations.)
hockeydenis
I read 116 pages of this thread of the weekend and somewhere in here there is discussion of the word "fee" next to the guy's left shoulder. After starring at it long enough I think it might say "PeeL" I could be wrong, it could be matrixing from the scan I'm working with.
Also of note doing research on old maps and historical site, one block up from Mount Stephens Club on Drummond is the old Salvation Army Citadel. I don't believe that has been brought up and I don't know if it's relevant or not... yet.
I'm having a hard time with the Dutch link, I know Montreal saw a large immigration of Dutch post WW2 and that both designer of Mont-Royal and the originator of the Expo 67 idea were both of Dutch decent but that's all I've got so far.
Unfortunately the more research I do into the history of the Island, the more I start realizing that most of the parks have undergone some sort of renovation since the 1980s and lets not forget the Ice Storm of the 90s.
Just a few ideas thrown at the wall.
drunknerds
Alright, it's Friday after work, I've got a six pack of amazingly hoppy IPA, time to do some armchair huntin'
The immigration angle hasn't been too specifically explored lately. Cleveland is Greek themed and the Greek gardens held the casque. St. Augustine is Spanish themed and they were seeking the fountain of Youth. Image 9 is widely regarded to be Dutch, and Montreal. Not a lot of overlap there (unlike
New
Orleans
and French, lol).
And guess what? SOmeone wrote a thesis in
1986
about the Dutch Social culture in Quebec.
https://www.lowensteyn.com/dutchque/
Looks like there were just a few key pieces of Dutch culture in Montreal around then:
- The Dutch Canadian Association
- The Borrel Club
- Something called CAANS
- The First Christian Reformed Church of Montreal
Gonna fill up my stein and start googling for images.
drunknerds
Alright, it's Friday after work, I've got a six pack of amazingly hoppy IPA, time to do some armchair huntin'
The immigration angle hasn't been too specifically explored lately. Cleveland is Greek themed and the Greek gardens held the casque. St. Augustine is Spanish themed and they were seeking the fountain of Youth. Image 9 is widely regarded to be Dutch, and Montreal. Not a lot of overlap there (unlike New Orleans and French, lol).
And guess what? SOmeone wrote a thesis in
1986
about the Dutch Social culture in Quebec.
https://www.lowensteyn.com/dutchque/
Looks like there were just a few key pieces of Dutch culture in Montreal around then:
- The Dutch Canadian Association
- The Borrel Club
- Something called CAANS
- The First Christian Reformed Church of Montreal
Gonna fill up my stein and start googling for images.
erexere
Oooh, nice opener drunknerds. I also have a strange hoppy beer. Deschutes has a seasonal called Sagefight Imperial IPA. Looking for Dutch connections is really the way I think this pic needs to be worked, though I believe there's a strong Scot link based on the X on the lapel and the fact that the legeater is at a Scotsman's front door.
E: to be clear, the Scottish flag is just a big X.
drunknerds
JoshCornell wrote::
I explained the Dutch Connection...it relates to Rembrandt (the Dutch Painter) of which this painting is a ripoff of. Furthermore, if you research Rembrandt in Montreal...you will discover a story about an art heist at the Montreal Museum Of Fine Arts (which included the theft of a Rembrandt landscape)...the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts is in the Golden Square Mile District of Montreal...hence the connection...
Great! You've found that association and that was interesting to learn about the heist. A great passing resemblance for a baseline visual association to try to beat. Also, I'm laughing at the notion that Preiss wanted to write a schlock, derivative paperback, then sent a picture of a Rembrandt to the artist and said, "do this." Not saying it's implausible, just it's good situational comedy.
Gonna pick up my kids and then google image search the hell out of those Dutch-Montreal orgs. Looking forward to learning!
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
Oooh, nice opener drunknerds. I also have a strange hoppy beer. Deschutes has a seasonal called Sagefight Imperial IPA. Looking for Dutch connections is really the way I think this pic needs to be worked, though I believe there's a strong Scot link based on the X on the lapel and the fact that the legeater is at a Scotsman's front door.
E: to be clear, the Scottish flag is just a big X.
Smurf! What's up, glad to see you. I gotta get the kids and then let's take a tour of Dutch heritage in Montreal.
gManTexas
Fenix, how are you posting pics? HTML links? When I tried it told me that the storage limit was exceeded.
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
Oooh, nice opener drunknerds. I also have a strange hoppy beer. Deschutes has a seasonal called Sagefight Imperial IPA.
Oh, yeah, Sagefight is a strange taste. Haven't figured out if I like it or not, yet.
I'm drinking Lucille by Georgetown. It was dynamite about 1.5 months ago, but the hop punch is starting to fade. Still a great taste for my buds
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Alright, it's Friday after work, I've got a six pack of amazingly hoppy IPA, time to do some armchair huntin'
The immigration angle hasn't been too specifically explored lately. Cleveland is Greek themed and the Greek gardens held the casque. St. Augustine is Spanish themed and they were seeking the fountain of Youth. Image 9 is widely regarded to be Dutch, and Montreal. Not a lot of overlap there (unlike New Orleans and French, lol).
And guess what? SOmeone wrote a thesis in
1986
about the Dutch Social culture in Quebec.
https://www.lowensteyn.com/dutchque/
Looks like there were just a few key pieces of Dutch culture in Montreal around then:
- The Dutch Canadian Association
- The Borrel Club
- Something called CAANS
- The First Christian Reformed Church of Montreal
Gonna fill up my stein and start googling for images.
I was not able to find any structures associated with any of these. There's no official buildings or anything.
However, while researching, I found a spot called the "Holland Hotel" that is 500 meters away from Mount Stephen Club
Edit to add: It's in the Golden Square Mile, too!
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Alright, it's Friday after work, I've got a six pack of amazingly hoppy IPA, time to do some armchair huntin'
The immigration angle hasn't been too specifically explored lately. Cleveland is Greek themed and the Greek gardens held the casque. St. Augustine is Spanish themed and they were seeking the fountain of Youth. Image 9 is widely regarded to be Dutch, and Montreal. Not a lot of overlap there (unlike
New
Orleans
and French, lol).
And guess what? SOmeone wrote a thesis in
1986
about the Dutch Social culture in Quebec.
https://www.lowensteyn.com/dutchque/
Looks like there were just a few key pieces of Dutch culture in Montreal around then:
- The Dutch Canadian Association
- The Borrel Club
- Something called CAANS
- The First Christian Reformed Church of Montreal
Gonna fill up my stein and start googling for images.
I was not able to find any structures associated with any of these. There's no official buildings or anything.
However, while researching, I found a spot called the "Holland Hotel" that is 500 meters away from Mount Stephen Club
Edit to add: It's in the Golden Square Mile, too!
erexere
I thought for sometime about how Holland might be of help leading to some specific place that involved the word "Hollow". This basically stems from the root word connection but also connects to the Dutch and LOW-land gnomes.
Hollow = Holland + Lowland...in a sense.
This is why I thought the "Hollow Tree" in Vancouver was an interesting place.
gManTexas
In a tip of the hat to Fenix, I will post the solution to this one in this thread, rather than making a new one. I will also work up a full solve PDF like I did for Boston, since for sake of brevity I've condensed this solution.
This puzzle for Montreal is elegant, and required a bit of research, also, heavy play on words in the verses:
Verse 5
1. Lane
2. Two twenty two
3. You'll see an arc of lights
4. Weight and roots extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls
5. Wind swept halls
6. Citadel in the night
7. A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight
8. Beneath the only standing member
9. Of a forest
10. To the south
11. White stone closest
At twelve paces
From the west side
12. Get permission
To dig out.
Solution
1. Lane - this is meaningless without the location. We already know that Montreal is suspect from the coordinates and the shapes in Image 9. The hat, the face, etc. match geographical features in Montreal.
2. Two twenty two - physical address of racetrack with Lanes. Okay now we have a location.
3. You'll see an arc of lights - most likely the Biosphere or Montreal itself.
4. Weight and roots extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls - This is George Stephen House located at 1440 Drummond Street. Visual confirmation is the leg eater in the Image. It was going to be torn down, then made into a landmark. This moves you into the city.
5. Wind swept halls - This refers to the Beaver Hall Group and Group of Seven Canadian artists. They formed in the 1920s at 305 Beaver Hall Hill. Google them, they are known for wind swept landscapes. Some of their art is at the Fine Arts Museum. Also landing you in the city.
6. Citadel in the night - Refers to the Royal Victoria Hospital. The place looks like a Citadel, and was designed with multi-story, open-plan "Nightingale wards" were joined by bridges. George Stephen fund the construction of the Hospital. It is in Mount Royal Park.
7. A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight - This clue is out of order, but does refer to the first passenger balloon flight by Eugene Godard in 1856. The gondola and other items were display at Bonsecours Market prior to the launch.
8. Beneath the only standing member - The Cross on Mount Royal. There was actually another cross called the reclining Cross. Big controversy. Also, many times when displayed, the cross is represented with three crosses. This one is alone.
9. Of a forest - not sure if this line goes with number 8, or is just an indication that we are looking in a forest.
10. To the south - south side of the cross.
11. White stone closest
At twelve paces
From the west side - count twelve paces from the west side of cross in a southernly direction.
12. Get permission
To dig out. - You are standing in front of the electrical panel for the cross lighting system, which is sitting on a concrete slab. Get permission from the officials to dig the casque.
Now, since it is difficult to link images in this forum, I have to put together a PDF with the complete walk through, however I'll put some notes here.
A few things lead you to the cross. One is the Monk's hands. "Here is the Church, here is the steeple", plus a cross. Also, the runes on the monk's chest stand for Joy and Waterfall. There is a pleasant little waterfall that you can follow up the mountain, via a staircase. What the symbols are also, is the Chi-Ro aka Symbol of Christ. Manipulate them and you'll see it. There is a big X as well in case there was any doubt.
Below the monk's collar is a square ladder pattern that matches the facades on the Hospital. So we have a progression from Notre Dame Island to Saint Helen's Island to Montreal proper. Then we move toward Mount Royal, making our way up to the Cross, which is a huge landmark. Along the way we can also pass Mount Royal Chalet, which could also be considered to have wind swept halls.
Here is a link to the spot. The casque should be very close to the electrical panel you can see:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5087617 ... 312!8i6656
One word of caution, the lighting system was recently updated. They may have had to dig, but judging from the box, it looks like they reused the box from an earlier installation. Also, knowing Canadians, if someone found something buried, it is in someone's office waiting to be claimed. They are so polite up there.
gManTexas
In a tip of the hat to Fenix, I will post the solution to this one in this thread, rather than making a
new
one. I will also work up a full solve PDF like I did for Boston, since for sake of brevity I've condensed this solution.
This puzzle for Montreal is elegant, and required a bit of research, also, heavy play on words in the verses:
Verse 5
1. Lane
2. Two twenty two
3. You'll see an arc of lights
4. Weight and roots extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls
5. Wind swept halls
6. Citadel in the night
7. A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight
8. Beneath the only standing member
9. Of a forest
10. To the south
11. White stone closest
At twelve paces
From the west side
12. Get permission
To dig out.
Solution
1. Lane - this is meaningless without the location. We already know that Montreal is suspect from the coordinates and the shapes in Image 9. The hat, the face, etc. match geographical features in Montreal.
2. Two twenty two - physical address of racetrack with Lanes. Okay now we have a location.
3. You'll see an arc of lights - most likely the Biosphere or Montreal itself.
4. Weight and roots extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls - This is George Stephen House located at 1440 Drummond Street. Visual confirmation is the leg eater in the Image. It was going to be torn down, then made into a landmark. This moves you into the city.
5. Wind swept halls - This refers to the Beaver Hall Group and Group of Seven Canadian artists. They formed in the 1920s at 305 Beaver Hall Hill. Google them, they are known for wind swept landscapes. Some of their art is at the Fine Arts Museum. Also landing you in the city.
6. Citadel in the night - Refers to the Royal Victoria Hospital. The place looks like a Citadel, and was designed with multi-story, open-plan "Nightingale wards" were joined by bridges. George Stephen fund the construction of the Hospital. It is in Mount Royal Park.
7. A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight - This clue is out of order, but does refer to the first passenger balloon flight by Eugene Godard in 1856. The gondola and other items were display at Bonsecours Market prior to the launch.
8. Beneath the only standing member - The Cross on Mount Royal. There was actually another cross called the reclining Cross. Big controversy. Also, many times when displayed, the cross is represented with three crosses. This one is alone.
9. Of a forest - not sure if this line goes with number 8, or is just an indication that we are looking in a forest.
10. To the south - south side of the cross.
11. White stone closest
At twelve paces
From the west side - count twelve paces from the west side of cross in a southernly direction.
12. Get permission
To dig out. - You are standing in front of the electrical panel for the cross lighting system, which is sitting on a concrete slab. Get permission from the officials to dig the casque.
Now, since it is difficult to link images in this forum, I have to put together a PDF with the complete walk through, however I'll put some notes here.
A few things lead you to the cross. One is the Monk's hands. "Here is the Church, here is the steeple", plus a cross. Also, the runes on the monk's chest stand for Joy and Waterfall. There is a pleasant little waterfall that you can follow up the mountain, via a staircase. What the symbols are also, is the Chi-Ro aka Symbol of Christ. Manipulate them and you'll see it. There is a big X as well in case there was any doubt.
Below the monk's collar is a square ladder pattern that matches the facades on the Hospital. So we have a progression from Notre Dame Island to Saint Helen's Island to Montreal proper. Then we move toward Mount Royal, making our way up to the Cross, which is a huge landmark. Along the way we can also pass Mount Royal Chalet, which could also be considered to have wind swept halls.
Here is a link to the spot. The casque should be very close to the electrical panel you can see:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5087617 ... 312!8i6656
One word of caution, the lighting system was recently updated. They may have had to dig, but judging from the box, it looks like they reused the box from an earlier installation. Also, knowing Canadians, if someone found something buried, it is in someone's office waiting to be claimed. They are so polite up there.
gManTexas
As promised, here is the link to the PDF that I put together with my proposed solution to Image 9 and Verse 5.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3uzw1tyt02bau ... l.pdf?dl=0
If you have questions, feel free to post them here or PM me.
gManTexas
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
As promised, here is the link to the PDF that I put together with my proposed solution to Image 9 and Verse 5.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3uzw1tyt02bau ... l.pdf?dl=0
If you have questions, feel free to post them here or PM me.
gManTexas
This was well detailed and worth my time. Organized and visual. Do you have something showing either the location of all these landmarks in relation to each other or a path from the starting point to the dig spot?
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
This was well detailed and worth my time. Organized and visual. Do you have something showing either the location of all these landmarks in relation to each other or a path from the starting point to the dig spot?
Thanks drunknerds.
I put together a map. Once you get to the steps at Rue Peel, you follow the waterfall. Then you have to follow some trails, but eventually you get to the giant cross on top of the mountain. Here is the link for the map:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5r9ahzk82wdr ... l.png?dl=0
Walking looks like about 3 hours total. I'll assume that meandering and whatnot, plus lunch would make it a full day of sightseeing.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Your proposal seems a bit spread out. The verse for both Cleveland and Chicago was much more reigned in. The fact that you are walking over bridges between islands, through the old port, then downtown, up 500 stairs to get to Mount Royal, and finally ascending to the peak with zero instructions to do so along the way is what gets me.
I like the mapping a lot though. I think this is very important step for anybody that has a theory. They quickly point out flaws in our approach.
Fenix, you are in Montreal aren't you? Once the ground thaws, maybe you could go check. In the meantime, perhaps make contact with the park dept and secure permission to dig.
I don't agree with zero instructions. There are signs along the path and many people hike up the mountain specifically for the cross. If you have made a determination that the cross is important, you can see if from the city, especially when it's lit up, asking someone if you can hike to it is a natural question. I've been to Montreal many times.
Once you are actually in the park, the distance is not that great.
gManTexas
I'm sorry, I must have missed the passage in the book that defines the limits of distance traveled and amount of exertion required to find a casque.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Good one...I only point out that you did some nice google searches and plotted them on the map which you labeled as a solution That game has become all too familiar here. In reality, we need to be able to connect the dots. Look at the path in Chicago and Cleveland...look at the instructions in the Milwaukee verse. How does distance correlate to the verse lines and how do the verses change as there is more distance to cover?
You choose to argue that you did connect the dots and 5 miles between lines of the verse is alright because BP didn't set parameters. Sorry, I'm not buying that bs.
I didn't post the proposed, operative word is proposed, solution to get in an argument with you or anyone else. I posted what I believe is a well thought-out analysis of the Image and Verse. If you read the whole PDF, I state that until the casque is found, this is only a proposal. My intent is not to go to Montreal, I just can't see the value in traveling from Texas. More important, in the spirit of sharing and collaborating, I'm hoping that someone does investigate it and can gain some value from what I researched. I am under the impression that this is what this forum is for, people sharing ideas, even if they are not in the city where a casque is buried. I could have gone to the library and researched, the internet just happens to be more convenient and faster.
Since you think the extended solution is BS, I'll offer this: I stand by the original solve because it seems that BP wanted people to explore, but I'll offer this alternative to streamline the trip.
If we wanted an abbreviated solution, driving on Route 112 we can past the racetrack and see the biosphere lit up from the bridge over the St. Lawrence River. Follow that through Griffintown where the hot air balloon took off from. This dumps you on Rue Peel. You pass by the area where the rented crash pad used to sit for the Beaver Hall Hill group, near the Granite Sunlife building. This puts you in the area of Mount Stephen Club, with the leg eater. From there we follow Rue Peel to the steps of Mount Royal park, near the Royal Victoria hospital.
Then climb the mountain to the cross. The waterfall in along the path at the bottom of the mountain, not at the top by the cross. Many, many people hike the mountain to the cross.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
I continue to respond to you because I believe you have something to offer the overall hunt. Let me try this, it's 1982, how do you connect these dots without the help of google all mighty?
It's a bit like a scavenger hunt, if you find clue one, the next clue has to be close enough or you are sitting at the library for a week in between. Again, I challenge you to look at Chicago and Cleveland, along with other verses with theories to lines that are very difficult to argue with. I see people falling into a trap of jumping from one side of a city to the next just because they found something on google that kind of fits.
Based on what we have learned, do you not expect if you needed to cross two bodies of water or climb 500 stairs that BP would have at least made mention of it?
I have actively looked at that angle of falling into a trap, and pondered it deeply. I have, in all of these puzzles transported myself back to the time period and framed this with the thought: If I was looking in a city, what would I look for? The main attractions are obvious. This is why I mentioned that this one reads like a tourist pamphlet for Montreal. The two difficult parts are making the connection to the Beaver Hall Hill and Group of Seven artists, and the connection between George Stephen and the Royal Vic. I think this is why the overly blatant leg eater clue was in the Image. Once you find that, it is easy to see that he was important and contributed to the hospital. All of these facts could be found in the library or by talking to people in 1982, no Internet required. In fact, we could even ignore the "Wind swept halls" IMHO. No one said the puzzle would be solved in a day, or a week. Here we are 36 years later...
As for the crossing the bodies of water, you do cross them if you are driving into the city from the United States. Or you can walk it, been there, done that one time when I was there for the Benson & Hedges Fireworks competition in the 80s. Regarding the climb up the mountain to the Cross, I'm not sure why you think this is impossible. Like I said, many people do it. Kids, old people, dogs. I personally did not, no interest, but I got up to the chalet. If we look at Milwaukee, there appears to be some distance required. Nowhere does it say, the casque is within X distance from your start point. Which brings up the issue of how to define the start point. If we say that the first verse is, then it could be considered a great distance. If we gloss over the landmarks that set us in the correct vicinity and skip to ground clues, e.g. the leg eater, then we are much closer.
If we look at the spirit of the book, BP wanted people in nature, in parks, in gardens. Mount Royal is an amazing park and a gem for Montreal. I advanced the theory that the cross, as repeatedly indicated in the image, seemed like a likely candidate. Again, looking at the tourist guide, it would be clearly marked as a sight seeing destination, and people know it well in the area. The rest of the clues move you toward the park.
Having said all this, could I be off base? Yes. It is just a theory. One that I feel has merit and could be investigated if someone was willing to hike the trails, enjoy some nature and visit the cross. The junction box fits the clues in the verses and makes sense to get permission to dig out. If you don't want to entertain the theory that's fine. Perhaps someone will make the effort to at least follow up and if nothing else, rule it out.
hockeydenis
I'm going to go with Fenix on this having been in Montreal many times. The theory taking you from Parc Jean Drapeau to the top of Mont Royal is definitely taking a round about way and would take multiple hours if you did it in a straight line, it seems out of sorts with the other locations that have most of their clues in a reasonable walking distance.
As previously noted the Biosphere didn't have any lights in the early 1980s.
As for the race track it was just called Grand Prix du Canada or Circuit de l'Ile Notre Dame back then and probably didn't have a street number at the time or if it did it wasn't widely known and wasn't even on the tickets or programs of the race for the time period in question. Even today if you didn't have Google and Google Maps you would be hard pressed to find the address.
Another note to a previous theory about the white stone near the southern tip of Ile Ste Helene, I contacted the PJD administration and they confirmed that this section of the park was remodelled in the early 90s to create the belvedere/look-off, cycling track and they also added the "Rose des Vents" to the site, so if the casque was there it, it probably isn't there anymore.
gManTexas
hockeydenis wrote::
I'm going to go with Fenix on this having been in Montreal many times. The theory taking you from Parc Jean Drapeau to the top of Mont Royal is definitely taking a round about way and would take multiple hours if you did it in a straight line, it seems out of sorts with the other locations that have most of their clues in a reasonable walking distance.
As previously noted the Biosphere didn't have any lights in the early 1980s.
As for the race track it was just called Grand Prix du Canada or Circuit de l'Ile Notre Dame back then and probably didn't have a street number at the time or if it did it wasn't widely known and wasn't even on the tickets or programs of the race for the time period in question. Even today if you didn't have Google and Google Maps you would be hard pressed to find the address.
Another note to a previous theory about the white stone near the southern tip of Ile Ste Helene, I contacted the PJD administration and they confirmed that this section of the park was remodelled in the early 90s to create the belvedere/look-off, cycling track and they also added the "Rose des Vents" to the site, so if the casque was there it, it probably isn't there anymore.
Hey, thanks for the info. Other than the start point, how do you feel about the Cross? Does that make sense for the casque location?
hockeydenis
The idea of the casque being on Mont Royal is a possibility since the designer was Dutch it would give a connection to the Dutch settlers, however I haven't able able to figure out how the verse gets you up the mountain.
The area around the Cross was worked on in the early 90s when they replaced the electrical and changed the lights from bulbs to a fibre optic system and again in 2008 when these changes were made from what I could find in public records:
- remove the fence surrounding the cross and cover the leg base with a perforated metal siding preventing climbing ;
- rearrange the base of the cross;
- modify the landscaping around the cross;
- redevelop the adjacent trails;
- open and frame views of interest;
- relocate the furniture of the sector.
To me this means any visual indicators around the cross are long gone and probably the casque too if it was there to begin with.
gManTexas
hockeydenis wrote::
The idea of the casque being on Mont Royal is a possibility since the designer was Dutch it would give a connection to the Dutch settlers, however I haven't able able to figure out how the verse gets you up the mountain.
The area around the Cross was worked on in the early 90s when they replaced the electrical and changed the lights from bulbs to a fibre optic system and again in 2008 when these changes were made from what I could find in public records:
- remove the fence surrounding the cross and cover the leg base with a perforated metal siding preventing climbing ;
- rearrange the base of the cross;
- modify the landscaping around the cross;
- redevelop the adjacent trails;
- open and frame views of interest;
- relocate the furniture of the sector.
To me this means any visual indicators around the cross are long gone and probably the casque too if it was there to begin with.
Yeah, I mentioned that the lighting had been updated, although the electrical panel looks like it was reused, probably to save money. Also, possibly that if something was unearthed, maybe someone saved it. Might not hurt to talk to the park dept.
Howardjthomas
Don't forget under the scratched out area next to the legeater is a flur de lis. As shown on the original on exp unknown.
I also believe the final dig area will be in a 200yd to 500yd area.
gManTexas
Howardjthomas wrote::
I also believe the final dig area will be in a 200yd to 500yd area.
Can you explain this a bit more?
drunknerds
Sitting here at the bar on my 40th birthday, having a big dish of Poutine in honor of going through all the posts in this thread. Why is the secret so fascinating? Is it the stony pics?
Cheers!
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Sitting here at the bar on my 40th birthday, having a big dish of Poutine in honor of going through all the posts in this thread. Why is the secret so fascinating? Is it the stony pics?
Cheers!
Happy birthday!
Howardjthomas
Howardjthomas wrote::
Don't forget under the scratched out area next to the legeater is a flur de lis. As shown on the original on exp unknown.
I also believe the final dig area will be in a 200yd to 500yd area.
The two found casks where in a smaller(200yd to 500yd) area once you get to the verse. The image should get you close. Then the verse to the dig site.
I'm not too familiar with the image but I think the legeater and flur de lis. Will be in the dig area for sure. There is a fence with a legeater and flur de lis I saw someone post. How common is this in Montreal.
gManTexas
Okay, thanks to the feedback from Finex and hockeydenis, I have revisited my proposed solve for Montreal. I failed to research the history of the race track and Biosphere, assuming they were reasonable clues. This was wrong of me, I should have been more thorough.
As I thought about it, placing the start of the hunt in downtown made a lot of sense. I thought back to when I visited Montreal in the 80's and the entertainment district, including the red light district came to mind. Looking at the first verse "Lane", I thought about a narrow street or one-way streets. Then it hit me, 2-22 Rue Sainte-Catherine! It's a one-way street. This was sort of the heart of the arts and entertainment district. McGill University and art museums, shopping, red light area. This is the start point in my mind. It is really important to understand that this area looks nothing like it did back in 1980.
Walking down St. Catherine, you would pass parks, The Sun Life building, Dorchester Square where the Beaver Hall Hill house used to sit. From there you go over to the Mount Stephens Club (MSC) with the leg eater pole. From MSC, head up to the Royal Victoria hospital at Mount Royal Park. From the steps at Rue Peel it's about a kilometer to the Cross at the top. The casque should be buried near the electrical junction box 12 paces from the Cross.
I have revised my solve and included the walking map in the PDF this time. The path is very straightforward and definitely walkable. It should take about an hour or so and is under 2.4 miles total.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7qo3prt3oca9 ... 2.pdf?dl=0
Again, if you have comments, please post here or PM me.
gManTexas
drunknerds
The 2-22 Saint Catherine is a great find. Haven't seen that before.
Although they both seem to be in the same area, the ample distance between 2-22 and the next part of the solve: MSC (2.2 km Which I think is like 1.5 miles roughly), makes me wonder if this one isn't a "walking tour" puzzle but more a "just some buildings around the area" puzzle just like Chicago.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
The 2-22 Saint Catherine is a great find. Haven't seen that before.
Although they both seem to be in the same area, the ample distance between 2-22 and the next part of the solve: MSC (2.2 km Which I think is like 1.5 miles roughly), makes me wonder if this one isn't a "walking tour" puzzle but more a "just some buildings around the area" puzzle just like Chicago.
That could very well be. I think this one is not a bad walk, but maybe others wouldn't want to walk it. Sean Kelly, who is Canadian, may have had something to do with this puzzle. His interpretation may be embedded in this Montreal hunt. If we assume that you are spending a couple of days in Montreal, it wouldn't be so bad at all. I'm not sure that anyone has established what a reasonable distance for the path of clues to be, so it's hard to judge.
drunknerds
Good call about Kelly. Makes me want to search the book more, as this puzzle is frustrating in it's apparent lack of detail. I want an image-match at the dig location, but I can't even think of something in the image there is to match
erexere
Unknown:
In the 1940s, inspired by Schoenberg, Gershwin and others, and in the shadow cast by the war and the Holocaust, Hovey began exploring the multicultural basis of American music, first through his own (half) Jewish heritage and also in African-American culture. In this exploration, he had the contrasting example of two very different American contemporaries, the composer Aaron Copland who had reworked traditional American folksong for the concert hall, and the field folklorist Alan Lomax, whose recordings in the Mississippi Delta became one of the inspirations for Edinburgh’s School of Scottish Studies.
Hovey discovered Scottish music when a friend asked Hovey about the indications of the airs printed below the titles in a standard Burns edition. He later wrote, “once I realized that the tunes were still extant, that they were mostly Scots folk songs, and above all, that they sounded marvelous in conjunction with Burns’s lyrics, I was hooked.” His first major composition drawing on Scottish song was his Robert Burns Rhapsody: A Scottish-American Fantasy for full orchestra, premiered in Berlin in 1959, which concludes with the chorus singing Burns’s great ode to equality, “A Man’s A Man For A’ That.”
Robert Burns is a Rhapsodic Man.
analysisdead
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I'd still like to confirm whether that fence in 1982 did have the fleur de lis, or was the same one that's there now; seems possible. Emailed the place on the
[email protected]
address, no reply.
I know your post there is from a few weeks ago, but I was looking at some of the pages of this thread from 2006 when the legeater was first found, and it includes correspondence with a photo archivist who mentions "the iron fence with the fleurs-de-lys" and implies it was added prior to the 1930s:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&start=555#p54697
The photo archive in question is the Notman Archives and you can find the photo drunknerds posted there, but it is dated mid-1930s, and I think you can make out the fleurs on the fence:
hxxp://collections.musee-mccord.qc.ca/e ... VIEW-25493
...in addition, the fence is there in this photo from 1903:
hxxp://collections.musee-mccord.qc.ca/e ... /II-147452
(I found those by putting the numbers in the email from the archivist, such as II-147452, into the search box at the top right of the musee-mccord website.)
Of course, that doesn't prove beyond doubt that it was there in 1980-1981 but it makes clear that the fence with the fleurs was a longstanding identifiable part of the club's front presentation to the street for decades before that at least.
WhiteRabbit
analysisdead wrote::
I was looking at some of the pages of this thread from 2006 when the legeater was first found, and it includes correspondence with a photo archivist who mentions "the iron fence with the fleurs-de-lys" and implies it was added prior to the 1930s
Well spotted, thanks.
hockeydenis
Unknown:
In an interview in January, structural architecture professor Pieter Sijpkes of McGill University explained the reason new construction poses a threat to historic buildings like the Mount Stephen Club is that Montreal is built on clay soil, which shrinks when it loses humidity, causing foundations to shift. When construction crews excavate a site, they pump out water, which affects the humidity in the soil, he said.
Interesting item on the soil composition of Montreal from an article about structural problems at the Mount Stephen Club during the building of the attached hotel:
Link:
hxxp://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/structural-problems-date-back-15-years
drunknerds
So, what are the odds that it was hidden behind that fleur de lis fence right by the left legeater? On the one hand:
- We have no other confirmers for a dig location, and nothing else that could really be interpreted as an exact-match. It's just checkers and giant head
- Preiss could have thought it was too easy having those two right next to each other, and crossed out the fleur
- This could be the "get permission to dig out" verse
On the other hand:
- Wow, you just jumped onto a private club in a foreign country, dug a huge hole, and are now offering a financial reward for others to do so as well
I feel like the area in question has been excavated at least once since 1982, with all the construction.
gManTexas
In discussing with drunknerds, we came to the conclusion that referencing Eugene Godard's hot air balloon fight in Montreal in 1856 may be a bit too obscure, so I looked at this again and came across some information regarding hot air balloons used during the 67 Expo to deliver air mail. If we look at the Monk's lapel, there is what we thought to be a flower, but it actually looks like the underside of a hot air balloon with gondola. There is even a 67 on the side of it. I have revised the solve to version 3 to reflect this. I have left the Godard reference in there, since there may be a plaque or something related to his flight in Montreal. This does not change my opinion on the casque location at the Cross on Mount Royal.
Thanks drunknerds!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxtaaq0wr0zyz ... 3.pdf?dl=0
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
In discussing with drunknerds, we came to the conclusion that referencing Eugene Godard's hot air balloon fight in Montreal in 1856 may be a bit too obscure, so I looked at this again and came across some information regarding hot air balloons used during the 67 Expo to deliver air mail. If we look at the Monk's lapel, there is what we thought to be a flower, but it actually looks like the underside of a hot air balloon with gondola. There is even a 67 on the side of it. I have revised the solve to version 3 to reflect this. I have left the Godard reference in there, since there may be a plaque or something related to his flight in Montreal. This does not change my opinion on the casque location at the Cross on Mount Royal.
Thanks drunknerds!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxtaaq0wr0zyz ... 3.pdf?dl=0
No need to thank me for being my usual, cynical-to-a-fault self.
I don't see the underside of a hot air balloon, but I think this expo 67-ballooning connection could have legs. Time to check some old Expo '67 brochures, maybe there was a monument left to the balloon mail.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
What if you are supposed to ride the balloon through the path and then up the mountain? Just don't pop the balloon while landing on the cross. Solved.
LOL, Just go up there during your two weeks of summer and dig this thing up.
drunknerds
The new hotel at MSC should do a promotion: All guests get to dig one hole
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
The new hotel at MSC should do a promotion: All guests get to dig one hole
Is there still a red light district?
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Wait, we get two weeks this year? Amazing!
I'll dig for you when you tell me how to get from downtown to the peak of the mountain in a logical manner(using the verse or image), the significance of the acrostic, and something in the image that I will see near your dig site....oh, and why the only standing member is sitting atop the white stone closest. I mean other than all of that, your solve is
electric
, haha.
Okay, I'll bite. Which acrostic are you referring to? The canoe one? ABBOT? That would only reinforce my idea that the monk is religious and pointing literally and figuratively to the cross. Maybe something else?
So, I came up with a proposed solve, and it is probably the most complete theory that I have seen. I'm not saying it is correct, the only way to know is to dig up a casque, or conversely not dig one up after trying at this location. Surely, there must be someone willing to try, even if not you. If nothing else, it's a nice day in the park.
What is your theory? Maybe we can swap notes and crack this together.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Come on man, you wouldn’t even dig based on what you posted. There are no directions in the verse or image that get you from downtown to the peak of the mountain. Furthermore, there is nothing that tells you to travel from St Hélène’s to downtown. You grabbed random waypoints do not connect in any logical manner.
I’d consider entertaining this if there was some flow to it. It’s not even something that I can work from in it’s current state. You solved it to completion; it’s perfect. Sound familiar?
Actually, I would dig near the cross. It makes a lot of sense.
As for getting there, remember I revised this to start at 2-22 Rue St. Catherine. Basically a straight shot to the leg eater then up to Mount Royal. All of the visual clues are there, including now the hot air balloon on his lapel.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to go dig. I just put this out there so people can either go dig, or come up with a better solve. I am definitely interested in hearing other potential solutions.
While I appreciate that you have been on here a while, being combative without being willing to collaborate is pointless in my opinion.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Thank goodness somebody else but me checks the history. It’s actually very new.
I believe this is the remains of 2-22 St Catherine before the demolition which made way for the Ediface 2-22 as part of the revitalization plan for the Quartier des Spectacles. This photo is from 2007.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xz05jzcf65o2e ... m.png?dl=0
You'll notice the similarity of the Club Soda building in the time sequence photos on the Wikipedia page.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Édifice_2-22 (this won't hyperlink properly, just copy and paste into browser)
The property where the new 2-22 building now sits was referred to as 2-22 or
2 through 22
, and articles from that time talk about the demolition of the existing 2-22 to make way for the project.
The corner of St Catherine and Blvd St Laurent was know as the heart of the "entertainment" district which includes the red light district. All of the nightclubs, theaters, museums, and generally bohemian things are in that area.
So Fenix, yes you are correct, the Edifice 2-22 which was finally completed in 2012 did not exist in 1981, but former buildings did.
erexere
I think we have a good lead to consider the X shape and it's runes.
The X could be a viking rune also, a "G". The two smaller runes that I've thought of as a "P" and "J" look most like the runes which translate into "W/V" and the "L". What could this be? West Lincoln? Victoria Lane...?
My thoughts on the X is it's symbolic of St. Andrews' cross or SALTIRE which may be associated with many things, like the flag of Scotland or even the Russian Navy ensign. I prefer to think it helps support the Lowland Gnomes, since the painting includes their opal. This may just corroborate the recent consideration that Hard word in 3 vol. Is actually the three George Anderson Lawson (from Edinburgh) sculptures of Rabbie Burns in Halifax, Montreal, and Vancouver BC. Is the word Hard capitalized because the H is for Halifax? I wonder if there's a legeater to be found there near Victoria Park.
drunknerds
Do we know what was across the street from MSC in 1980? I'm wondering if we are supposed to stand where the legeater is slightly to the left of the fleur de lis, which would put the X's and brick pattern on the building to the right of MSC kind of right in front of us. Line those up and where would we be standing? Tell me it was a patch of grass in 1980.
The legeater plus fleur de lis have me tunneling that specific block. Why put two arbitrary markers on one building if it's not near the dig site? Also the X and brickwork on the building next to MSC are a solid match for the X and the collar in the image. That's a lot of signs. If we weren't supposed to go recklessly digging up the MSC, we were supposed to do something right in that immediate area.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Do we know what was across the street from MSC in 1980? I'm wondering if we are supposed to stand where the legeater is slightly to the left of the fleur de lis, which would put the X's and brick pattern on the building to the right of MSC kind of right in front of us. Line those up and where would we be standing? Tell me it was a patch of grass in 1980.
The legeater plus fleur de lis have me tunneling that specific block. Why put two arbitrary markers on one building if it's not near the dig site? Also the X and brickwork on the building next to MSC are a solid match for the X and the collar in the image. That's a lot of signs. If we weren't supposed to go recklessly digging up the MSC, we were supposed to do something right in that immediate area.
Might be tough to find out, but I would start by looking at MSC photos from that time period. Or just Drummond Street. The YMCA is across the street and maybe the history of that can be researched. There may have been a playground area next to it.
This image of MSC looks to be around late 60s to early 70s.
hxxp://www.memorablemontreal.com/docume ... 68-001.jpg
gManTexas
I like that people on here keep investigating and questioning. While searching for info for drunknerds, I just came across a solid hit connecting The Beaver Hall Hill artist group with Mount Stephen Club. Please go back and read my potential solve if you need to catch up.
https://books.google.com/books?id=DI4pD ... 80&f=false
Link to solve for Montreal:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxtaaq0wr0zyz ... 3.pdf?dl=0
erexere
My thoughts on MSC is it's a loose lead. It's a perfect match but not necessarily unique to MSC. Ravel07 was just really lucky to find the legeater. He wasn't following the verse to any high degree to be focused in on the MSC. I think that hitch in the process just makes the site suspicious and it's premature to assume even with the fleurdelis that the casque has to be nearby.
Avoid random searching and get back to basics.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
My thoughts on MSC is it's a loose lead. It's a perfect match but not necessarily unique to MSC. Ravel07 was just really lucky to find the legeater. He wasn't following the verse to any high degree to be focused in on the MSC. I think that hitch in the process just makes the site suspicious and it's premature to assume even with the fleurdelis that the casque has to be nearby.
See my post above yours. Also, George Stephen is what ties the entire puzzle together. He and his house are the central hub of this.
erexere
Well. You can make it about Stephens or you can set a criteria that leads to Stephens as a reasonable option.
Assuming Stephens is the correct focus is where you can get into trouble.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
Well. You can make it about Stephens or you can set a criteria that leads to Stephens as a reasonable option.
Assuming Stephens is the correct focus is where you can get into trouble.
I agree, but like I've said, it is the most solid proposed solve I've seen. People should post some alternatives here.
Maybe we throw Josh a bone and have him dig my spot by the cross. No one seems willing to go try, which is disappointing.
WhiteRabbit
gManTexas wrote::
Maybe we throw Josh a bone and have him dig my spot by the cross.
I love that Josh is now the mad dog of the quest, who digs where Angels fear to tread.
gManTexas
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I love that Josh is now the mad dog of the quest, who digs where Angels fear to tread.
Lol, that should be his next handle after he gets banned.
On the plus side, I think Josh has whipped everyone into a frenzy and this forum has been way more active, so that's a win.
erexere
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I love that Josh is now the mad dog of the quest, who digs where Angels fear to tread.
Mmmmmm....mad dog 20/20.
fox
JoshCornell1 wrote::
i will dig my spot and my spot alone...get fenix to dig your spot for you. i like you. but im still not gonna dig where i know the treasure is not.
so...another empty hole? NIIIICE
Jmdemster
First post ever...
Digging Friday at 11 AM for this image, at a location that has yet to be mentioned anywhere online.
Took 6 weeks to secure permission, so forgive me if I am reluctant to share my info...... yet!
gManTexas
Jmdemster wrote::
First post ever...
Digging Friday at 11 AM for this image, at a location that has yet to be mentioned anywhere online.
Took 6 weeks to secure permission, so forgive me if I am reluctant to share my info...... yet!
The war eagles of Q4T are about to descend on you.
Good luck.
Jmdemster
I know. Iv'e been actively reading this site for about 2 months now, and have noticed characters who I feel would take that info, swoop in and illegally dig. Took too long to secure this to jeopardize anything. Regardless of the Friday outcome, I will share everything this weekend.
Jmdemster
Fenix wrote::
Good luck is right! Especially at this time of year.
Thanks! Weather looks suitable though.
Jmdemster
Absolutely!
I haven't claimed to find anything, just claiming that I will be digging. I hope you understand why I cant share yet....I was going to wait to post too, but I'm antsy and excited!
Jmdemster
Fenix wrote::
That's what I thought. Are you digging in Canada?
Nope
gManTexas
Jmdemster wrote::
Nope
Okay, time for questions...
How does the location fit with the immigration theme? The rest of the imagery? You've got a 800 pound leg eater to explain, lol!
Jmdemster
Neither, especially since both of those have been found. Would be rather fruitless on my part...
Jmdemster
Fenix wrote::
Not to mention Lat/Long
I've got the whole image interpreted. Whether I'm right or wrong will be determined.
thesonofhades
If this is the same guy i was talking to on reddit, then its sf.
Jmdemster
thesonofhades wrote::
If this is the same guy i was talking to on reddit, then its sf.
Not the same guy....
drunknerds
Could you at least share part of your solution, so I can hate on it from my ivory tower while providing nothing constructive? That's kind of my thing.
I hope this is in St. Louis.
catherwood
Jmdemster wrote::
I haven't claimed to find anything, just claiming that I will be digging. I hope you understand why I cant share yet....I was going to wait to post too, but I'm antsy and excited!
I'm not sure I understand this emotional urge to make a post to a forum where you haven't been participating before, not getting to know us first, only to say you think you've thought of something we haven't. (And after more than a decade of discussion, I'll be surprised to hear anything we haven't already at least considered in the past). Why not wait until after the dig, successful or not, to join our group and tell us a good story.
Am I just old and cranky?
Jmdemster
catherwood wrote::
I'm not sure I understand this emotional urge to make a post to a forum where you haven't been participating before, not getting to know us first, only to say you think you've thought of something we haven't. (And after more than a decade of discussion, I'll be surprised to hear anything we haven't already at least considered in the past). Why not wait until after the dig, successful or not, to join our group and tell us a good story.
Am I just old and cranky?
So be it...
erexere
No offense taken. I have done awful awful things.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
No offense taken. I have done awful awful things.
Awful, but Great
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Ha, come on, your buddy's stuff is really all over the place. No offense meant, it was just the level of confidence coupled with the random dots across the city that do not connect.
Is this directed at me?
I'd really be interested in seeing you sharing your proposed solutions. If I am correct, you have lived in Montreal for at least 13 years and have been on this board for 15. Surely you have come up with something in all that time.
maltedfalcon
Fenix wrote::
Ha, come on, your buddy's stuff is really all over the place. No offense meant,
Yes it is, but just because I don't get half of it. doesn't make it not valid. He and I and you have found exactly the same number of casques...
He is serious about his ideas and considers other peoples too.
And If I ever happen to find a casque (especially in SF) I will know that without his help it would not have happened.
and no gman we are talking about Erexere
drunknerds
Fenix wrote::
Ha, come on, your buddy's stuff is really all over the place. No offense meant, it was just the level of confidence coupled with the random dots across the city that do not connect.
I have nothing to hate on here. This guy was sharp, he clicked on the image 9 thread and started talking about image 9. I mean, he's in the wrong city, state, and country but it happens.
Oh, haha I see what happened here: I was actually being serious and making fun of myself, and I think you took it as me making fun of detractors.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Yes it is, but just because I don't get half of it. doesn't make it not valid. He and I and you have found exactly the same number of casques...
He is serious about his ideas and considers other peoples too.
And If I ever happen to find a casque (especially in SF) I will know that without his help it would not have happened.
and no gman we are talking about Erexere
Gotcha. I can't say that I've never made anyone mad, but here, I'm just trying to help. Maybe something I post might knock something loose for someone.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Ha, I was talking about Gman. Don't get me wrong, I think you are all good guys and I've never been mad. Well kind of when Josh was banned. I hated to see him go.(did you see that big ass grin he was wearing in ST.A) I actually see this point as a larger conflict that may lead to me posting more here in the future.
In response to my years on the board, yes, I have been here a while but I've solved and contributed nothing. Sorry, I cannot be of any assistance there.
Oh and Erexere does have a brilliant mind.
I'm cool with that, just not in a passive-aggressive way. Say stuff to me. I'll listen and consider. My point is that you have been very critical without offering any counterpoints or anything. Like I said, my solve may not be correct, but I have admitted mistakes and refined it. Also, short of seeing anything else, in my mind it is the most complete and logical solve I've seen. If people have better ideas, please be my guest. This isn't a competition.
fox
gManTexas wrote::
If people have better ideas, please be my guest. This isn't a competition.
PRECISELY
erexere
On principle I've avoided calling this the Montreal puzzle, because I believe the leg-eater falls in the accidental find category. It seems to me Preiss was aware of and utilized it, but not for the purpose to say look more in Montreal. There have been other reasons to consider Montreal, none of which are solid enough to be fully trusted. The case is just a bunch of people with opinions that it fits Montreal for one reason or another, but if you look at each reason critically, you can't be certain. That's a problem and that's why I've always given attention to exploring other locations.
Several people have liked Vancouver BC in the past, but those were the pre-leg-eater days. I like Vancouver for a lot of reasons, but all are no less worthy than those which support Montreal. I've even tried to explore a dual-location sort of puzzle design and that is untenable as well. Some people might remember my Hans Christian Anderson theories about the Shadow (basically an evil clone story), and the Little Mermaid. I still wonder about the visual likeness of this image 9 character to Hans Christian Anderson. Ultra deep level theories end up being too complicated. Anyway, the lat/long connection seems possible, a 4 and rotated 9 hidden in the corner of the flower and a 123 hidden in the hair. Vancouver is 49/123.
V10 has a line about taking a number of steps. I have this hard to believe kind of thought that these steps are completely linked to the painting. Take the hoof on that leg and notice it's width is the same as the nearby checker squares. If I propose the 9 o'clock gun in Stanley Park is the hour needed to determine an 18 step count, then where does that lead us in the painting? Has the hoof been drawn at a point where we need to track backwards 18 steps to determine a spot of special significance? I think this could be a reference visually and in concert with a site confirmer that helps us see the dig spot once we are at the correct site. So, summing up my thoughts, I don't think we take any actual steps at a site. We just use that as an in painting reference point.
I think the Burns monument is possibly the isle of B. Looking N at him and holding the painting up, I do see a possible match to the main plaque and brick, these being generic squares, but something stands out to my eye as there are two boundary lines that also fit.
drunknerds
I actually think there are four image matches at MSC, all within ~20 feet of each other:
1. Legeater, of course
2. Fleur de lis right next to the legeater
3. X on building right next to MSC
4. Brickwork on building right net to msc... notice how three bricks are positioned perpendicular at the center of the neck
I think that he either jumped the fence at MSC, which was kinda on the decline in 1980 from what I've read, and seemed to not have a flowerbed there in 1980... or he buried it in sight of all 4 things. If we can figure out wat buildings were across the street in 1980, I think we have our cask location.
WhiteRabbit
Is there anyone in Montreal? I'd still be interested in counting the steps. Could well be 15.
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Is there anyone in Montreal? I'd still be interested in counting the steps. Could well be 15.
Earlier in this thread, someone counted it out as 15. I think it might have been MF while trying to find the blob, but maybe it was the legeater discoverer, whose name escapes me.
BINGO
Don’t forget the map located in the collar.
https://flickr.com/photos/102050593@N07 ... 6549357283
Full disclosure:I hijacked this from Egbert’s public Flickr account.
WhiteRabbit
If it
was
at the MSC, then Wilhouse beat us to it.
BINGO
MrSeabass wrote::
I do not agree at all that the collar matches the river. Montreal is an island; it makes no sense to only show one 'side' of it this way.
I'm not saying it's
not
in Montreal, but the river is not a match for the collar.
After looking at the collar and the map of the river, the resemblance is there. If everything made perfect sense, the secret would be a book of maps and directions directly to the casque sites. Not a puzzle.
It’s good though, we can agree to disagree.
BINGO
WhiteRabbit wrote::
If it
was
at the MSC, then Wilhouse beat us to it.
Damn. I will be in Montreal in early June to visit with friends. I was hoping get a good look at everything while I am there.
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
If it
was
at the MSC, then Wilhouse beat us to it.
davinci4
Not sure I have seen this discussed before but has anyone incorporated the Roman numeral “X” into their solution? The “74” has been identified as the likely coordinates that match the city. Removing them, that leaves the “X” as a possible clue.
drunknerds
davinci4 wrote::
Not sure I have seen this discussed before but has anyone incorporated the Roman numeral “X” into their solution? The “74” has been identified as the likely coordinates that match the city. Removing them, that leaves the “X” as a possible clue.
A weird, and totally understandably confusing thing is that the search function on these boards seems remarkably more advanced than the boards themselves. It's at the top right of my screen. I typed in "Roman Numeral X" and a buncha results popped out (most were just 1-2 words together, but the speed made it easy to scroll through for an exact match. Quotes didn't work.)
Was glad I did. Some interesting stuff. Thanks for mentioning this.
davinci4
Yes. I think most just assume it’s part of the ‘month theme.’ Probably so, it just stands out a little here because there seems to otherwise be a lack of possible confirmer images (unlike most of the other paintings where there is much more going on). It is similar in that regard to the Milwaukee image.
MrBackstop
I'm surprised I haven't found much on this Image when it comes to the Olympics. When I was a 12 year old punk in the 70s I loved watching the Olympics and couldn't help but think that this puzzle is tied to Olympic Park.
Our ugly little dude in this image has some seriously messed up fingers (lengthwise), and I can't help but believe him holding his hands like this is a representation of Olympic Stadium. The stadiums supports have short bottoms and longer clasps over the top.
Verse 5
Weight and roots
extended
Together saved the site
Of granite walls
Wind swept halls
Citadel in the night
I"ve just started to get into this one and I gotta say, it looks like Olympic Park to me.
MrBackstop
When I watched the Olympics in '76 there were several images that were shown on screen continually through the games. And when I read Verse 5 toward the bottom:
To the south
White stone closest
the first thing I envisioned was this from my memory banks:
https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-148 ... -australia
Here is another perspective:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/montrea ... 944863.jpg
What's really interesting to me is that this is the first thing I thought of and, it also is my dig spot for my solve.
MrBackstop
I like how this Image is for October, the jewel is an Opal and the location is Olympic Park.
What let me know I'm in the right area is that I have deciphered the PX7 Box in Image 9.
The 1976 Monteal Olympics had something happen that had never happened in the games before when it came to scoring. Today the scoring is completely different for gymnastics but back then the highest score you could receive was a 10, otherwise known as a "Perfect 10".
Nadia Comaneci
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Nadia was the darling of the games when she became the first person to ever score a
Perfect 10
in Olympic competition. The event was the uneven bars. This is important because when you look at the PX7 Box in Image 9 you will notice a bar across the top and the bottom of the box (uneven bars).
The letter "P" means Perfect
The "X" means 10
So you ask, what does the 7 mean? During the course of the Games, Nadia recorded 7 - Perfect 10s
PX7 Box tells me the casque is in Olympic Park not too far from the white stone with the Olympic rings.
MrBackstop
Yeah, the Olympic village is the reason for the shape of the collar.
I'm still trying to figure out what the animal is in the profile of the hat. I thought at first that it could be the Golden Lion Tamarin that is in the Biodome but those arrived after the casque was buried. I just wonder if it was somewhere else before the Biodome, perhaps a zoo. Or maybe there is another well known primate in the area of the Olympic Park. Do we have any living in Quebec that could answer that question?
anus905
WhiteRabbit wrote::
If it
was
at the MSC, then Wilhouse beat us to it.
it most definitely was not at the george stephen house LMAO
wil...who?
anus905
davinci4 wrote::
Not sure I have seen this discussed before but has anyone incorporated the Roman numeral “X” into their solution? The “74” has been identified as the likely coordinates that match the city. Removing them, that leaves the “X” as a possible clue.
yes. i did. the x is representative of the number 10, 10 pm and October. Telling us we should do the puzzle in October at 10 pm. This is confirmed by the clue relating to the "Arc of lights" which will only be lit up at night.
WhiteRabbit
FFS Josh, now you're back then change your username already. Please. I just don't want to keep seeing your anus every time I look at this forum from now on.
MrBackstop
Here is my dig spot for Montreal:
hxxp://parcolympique.qc.ca/wp-content/u ... lanade.png
Go to where the walkway of section 200 meets the tip of the teardrop of section 100. This will put you South:
Beneath the only standing
Member of a Forest
- The partially built tower over Olympic Stadium
To the south
- South of The Tower and Olympic Stadium
White stone closest
- You will be closest to the white Olympic Rings stonewall
At twelve paces
- Follow the 12 stone sections on the curved teardrop wall
From the west side
- you will be to the West of the Section 200 walkway
Get permission
To dig out
. - You're going to need it in this park
Up against the 12th stone section of the teardrop wall of section 100 is my dig spot.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
*crickets*
Why are you surprised? Why is anyone surprised? The next time that someone comes onto the forum saying they have solved a puzzle and are going to dig it up, and then actually digs it up will be the first time this has happened in almost 14 years.
drunknerds
Fenix wrote::
JMdemster didn't seem quite as arrogant as some. Based on what he told me, he was getting a lot of joy out of the hunt with his family. My guess is he was excited and wanted to share it. He was able to convince whoever he needed to grant permission to dig which is an accomplishment in itself. Especially since he was in the wrong country!
My issue was that he called out people for jumping dig sites without providing any evidence. That undermines the trust this board has worked so hard to build, which hurts our ability to groupthink. Plus, it's kinda paranoid to not provide any part of a solve.
erexere
Can I get a list of the people with trustworthy status?
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
Can I get a list of the people with trustworthy status?
Anyone? Anyone...?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Can I get a list of the people with trustworthy status?
FWIW, I have never shared anything someone on this forum has told me in confidence with anyone else, without their express permission. I will patiently await an upgrade to my status.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I suppose there is a third now, who thinks they solved multiple puzzles in a week.
If you are talking about Josh, I think he is just a subset of your first group. An extreme outlier perhaps, but sincere in his desire to see these things solved and doing the best he can to try and make that happen. Given the extreme amount of ridicule, animus and outright hostility directed his way, I seriously doubt that he is in it for fame, fifteen minutes, or profit. That's someone else.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I don’t mind Josh and would agree with you on where he falls.
My apologies.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I do not have faith in his choice of city at all
Speaking only for myself, and having no additional knowledge, I will say that when someone starts talking about a solve that deviates from the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections that have already been established, I stop paying attention. What usually follows is the kind of confirmation bias that has, IMO, held back progress on this puzzle for far too long. I guess we all have our lines in the sand, and that's mine. I will apologize, and alter my thinking accordingly if/when someone digs up a casque under conditions that are different than the ones stated above.
maltedfalcon
sorry, so lost, who is digging where?
and I see a quote from jmdemster but can't find that user...
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
sorry, so lost, who is digging
Page 120 of this thread. To date, another victim of the "Be Back" hole.
drunknerds
There's a SUPER nice person on the wiki who, in addition to defusing fights, posted this really cool article about how the Canadians liberated the Dutch during WWII.
hxxp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ve-day-wh ... -1.3057318
I spent at least two nights and 15 cans of IPA trying to find any and all links between the two cultures, and I totally missed this so I am grateful.
drunknerds
Here's a cool article. Keep in mind it's from something called the "Canadian Encyclopedia" so it is definitely without bias
hxxp://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/e ... f-holland/
foozen
Not that I am 100% sure that verse 5 is the correct verse for image 9 but the french words L'ane = the Donkey. Does that ring any bells for those of you who live in Montreal?
MrBackstop
After deciphering the PX7 box and getting feedback from MrSeabass showing the Olympic Village being the collar, I'm going to add my thoughts on the Leg Eater.
My solve is in Olympic Park where you'd definitely need permission to dig out. That being said, "How does the Leg Eater tie-in to the Olympics?" For decades the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has been notoriously corrupt. Each time the cities trying to obtain the Olympic Games put their bids in to the IOC those cities would work all kinds of perks to the members of the IOC. The cities with the winning bids to host the games would offer the most money, the best food, the finest wines, incredible accommodations and the best entertainment....aka hookers/escorts.
As a Gentleman's Club, The George Stephen House was a perfect fit for entertaining the corrupt IOC members.
Thoughts?
Mister EZ
MrSeabass wrote::
That's a square-peg-in-a-round-hole.....
Good grief....Deja Vu.....now, I'm actually suffering from the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.
(lost should know what that is. She's a psychologist.)
Deuce
MrBackstop wrote::
After deciphering the PX7 box and getting feedback from MrSeabass showing the Olympic Village being the collar, I'm going to add my thoughts on the Leg Eater.
My solve is in Olympic Park where you'd definitely need permission to dig out. That being said, "How does the Leg Eater tie-in to the Olympics?" For decades the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has been notoriously corrupt. Each time the cities trying to obtain the Olympic Games put their bids in to the IOC those cities would work all kinds of perks to the members of the IOC. The cities with the winning bids to host the games would offer the most money, the best food, the finest wines, incredible accommodations and the best entertainment....aka hookers/escorts.
As a Gentleman's Club, The George Stephen House was a perfect fit for entertaining the corrupt IOC members.
Thoughts?
I always liked the Olympic stadium tower as the legeater leg sticking out of the frame if the pic is flipped
anus905
this is definitely not the main reference (relating to the treasure hunt)...but it could be a secondary ref, as there is also a 76 in the flower.
MrBackstop
Duece
That's an interesting idea and looks just like what you say...nice.
JC
No, definitely not the main reference, just an interesting tie-in to the 76 Montreal Games. The number 67 is in reference to the 1967 World Expo.
MrSeabass
If you like I could put a more positive spin on it and say the Gentlemen's Club was just a top notch Restaurant/Hotel that many of the IOC members enjoyed while they were at the games. I was just hoping to get some thoughts on what the Leg Eater connection was and I haven't been able to find any in this thread.
And I'll leave you with this, I worked in the media (local news station) in the early '80s and you'd be surprised what info comes into the house, what info gets exploited on the 6 O'clock news, and what info gets left on the cutting room floor.
anus905
the primary reference is to dorchester square
anus905
i dont see the connections to olympics.
heres what ive worked out:
GSH sends you cross country on the CPR all the way to BC to the mount stephen house at base of mount stephen.
relates to canada generally in that many political leaders were members of the club...there are other tangents to follow via this angle which will bring you to other places in mtl, ive not explored fully.
one of these locations is likely the first bank of mtl.
also, the hospitals with the step features like on the trafalgar girls school.
probably others as well...
anus905
takes you to the sun life building as well.
anus905
and Édifice Gérald-Godin.
anus905
also
here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sh ... ntreal.jpg
here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Georg ... _(Montreal
)
here: corner of mcgill and st paul st w
here:
https://imtl.org/montreal/image.php?id=454
and the faubourg des recollets.
from here you go all over. ohhh and a niagara falls connection! how fun.
anus905
here via bmo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_d%27Armes
anus905
place d'armes takes you to the place des arts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_des_Arts
anus905
george stephen pretty much takes you all around mtl lol.
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
I was just hoping to get some thoughts on what the Leg Eater connection was and I haven't been able to find any in this thread.
.
I mean, the image has a legeater next to a fleur de lis. The MSC has a tiny legeater next to a fleur de lis. It's either buried at the club or across the street. I strongly feel that anyone who chooses not to believe that hasn't paid attention to how the Chi/Cle puzzles were solved, and also doesn't understand the black-and-white nature of good puzzlemaking. You don't have a picture of a two-inch-high statue in a generally featureless puzzle and not have it be an exact dig site indicator. Even as a "hey, you're going in the right direction," it doesn't work because it's so small and the building next door already has a couple of good matches.
I'd love help researching if that skyscraper was always there across the street, or what it looked like on the outside.. You can see at least four things in the image from there.
burnstyle
drunknerds wrote::
I mean, the image has a legeater next to a fleur de lis. The MSC has a tiny legeater next to a fleur de lis. It's either buried at the club or across the street. I strongly feel that anyone who chooses not to believe that hasn't paid attention to how the Chi/Cle puzzles were solved, and also doesn't understand the black-and-white nature of good puzzlemaking. You don't have a picture of a two-inch-high statue in a generally featureless puzzle and not have it be an exact dig site indicator. Even as a "hey, you're going in the right direction," it doesn't work because it's so small and the building next door already has a couple of good matches.
I'd love help researching if that skyscraper was always there across the street, or what it looked like on the outside.. You can see at least four things in the image from there.
I thought the same thing. (if we are talking about the same building) I got excited about the planter box next to the lone tree.
Then I found out that property used to be a YMCA which was demolished and the new building was built.
drunknerds
burnstyle wrote::
I thought the same thing. (if we are talking about the same building) I got excited about the planter box next to the lone tree.
Then I found out that property used to be a YMCA which was demolished and the new building was built.
The skyscraper was a YMCA? Thank you! I've been trying forever to figure out what it was. Yeah too bad if he buried it there (or at the MSC) it is almost certainly pulverized. But maybe someone with boots on the ground can spot another dig site maybe just tucked away right there.
Or did you mean the building next door with the X and the brickwork like in the images neck was a YMCA? Too bad, I never even researched that because I assumed it was old because that architecture is so 1960s
burnstyle
drunknerds wrote::
The skyscraper was a YMCA? Thank you! I've been trying forever to figure out what it was. Yeah too bad if he buried it there (or at the MSC) it is almost certainly pulverized. But maybe someone with boots on the ground can spot another dig site maybe just tucked away right there.
Or did you mean the building next door with the X and the brickwork like in the images neck was a YMCA? Too bad, I never even researched that because I assumed it was old because that architecture is so 1960s
Don't take my word for it... but I was told that yes it was part of the YMCA, which is next door.
General consensus (among the few searcher that I know who live there) seems to be that it was buried at the MSC and was destroyed during the many renovations... but who knows.
drunknerds
burnstyle wrote::
Don't take my word for it... but I was told that yes it was part of the YMCA, which is next door.
General consensus (among the few searcher that I know who live there) seems to be that it was buried at the MSC and was destroyed during the many renovations... but who knows.
We're on the same page. Even if it is just on the other side of the left fleur de lis fence (a 1980 photo seems to show that this area might have remained unmolested), what is someone going to do, dig it up outside a 24-hour-hotel on a bustling street? I guess there's always room to charm one's way into permission, though.
anus905
burnstyle wrote::
Don't take my word for it... but I was told that yes it was part of the YMCA, which is next door.
General consensus (among the few searcher that I know who live there) seems to be that it was buried at the MSC and was destroyed during the many renovations... but who knows.
wtf. that is mental. nothing. literally nothing leads you there, in relation to the treasure hunt...my lord.
burnstyle
drunknerds wrote::
The skyscraper was a YMCA? Thank you! I've been trying forever to figure out what it was. Yeah too bad if he buried it there (or at the MSC) it is almost certainly pulverized. But maybe someone with boots on the ground can spot another dig site maybe just tucked away right there.
Or did you mean the building next door with the X and the brickwork like in the images neck was a YMCA? Too bad, I never even researched that because I assumed it was old because that architecture is so 1960s
I double checked, The building was the Drummond Court apartment building. It was bought by the Y because they wanted to restore the building, but it was too far gone. It was demolished in the 90's
https://imtl.org/image.php?id=9022
drunknerds
burnstyle wrote::
I double checked, The building was the Drummond Court apartment building. It was bought by the Y because they wanted to restore the building, but it was too far gone. It was demolished in the 90's
https://imtl.org/image.php?id=9022
Great research, thanks a bunch!
So is that where the YMCA AND the skyscraper now sit?
catherwood
drunknerds wrote::
The MSC has a tiny legeater next to a fleur de lis. It's either buried at the club or across the street....You don't have a picture of a two-inch-high statue in a generally featureless puzzle and not have it be an exact dig site indicator.
I thought the legeater was the base of a lamp post. I've had a mental picture of something two FEET tall, not two inches. Who builds a two-inch-tall anything? Anyway, just because it is in our painting doesn't make it the final location, no matter the size.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I've had a mental picture of something two FEET tall
Unknown:
just because it is in our painting doesn't make it the final location, no matter the size.
You don't need a mental picture as there is an actual picture on the Wiki. It is the base of a lamp, and it is about 8-12 inches tall.
I agree. Preiss designed a puzzle, not a scavenger hunt.
anus905
does anyone have a link with any info on the candelabra in particular? or possibly the GC (gov of Canada) page for MSH.
anus905
does anyone have a link with any info on the
candelabra
in particular? or possibly the GC (gov of Canada) page for MSH.
drunknerds
Building on what Fenix is saying:
I see now that I painted it as the size that mattered. Sorry about that, I meant it's the obscurity.
Cleveland had you go past iconic landmarks and sculptures featured in the image until you arrive at the final image match: Some wall.
Chicago had you go past classic buildings and statues until you get to the final image match: Some fencepost
In both, the only obscure image match object turned out to be the closest landmark to the final dig location.
In image 9, there is unique architecture, landscapes and... the tiny base of a lamp that even the owners don't even know much about.
It's not two feet, it's not 8-10 inches tall:
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/f/Image09_ ... arison.jpg
Also right next to a fleur de lis and right next door to a building with X shutters that resemble the image and weird brickwork that resembles his collar(kind of)
It's going to take a shockingly exact match to convince me this isn't the dig site. Not debate nor creative verse interpretation, because exact image matches of weird-but-not-Iconic stuff was the dig site marker for both solves.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
It appears the images are not loading properly but you can quote and pull the links if you would like to view them. *links added*
Regarding the legeater and final dig spot connection...this is a tough one. There really are not many image matches to go on in Image 9. The legeater and Fleur that I posted from the EU episode make a strong case that it is close based on what we have seen in the other puzzles. That is assuming that this puzzle works the same as Cleveland and Chicago, which it may not.
-The face is clearly John Macdonald who's monument is in Place du Canada.(Fox even pointed this out 10+ years back)
-St. George's Anglican Church across from Windsor Station and Place du Canada has a similar pattern to it's doors as the neckline.
-The X's are everywhere in the area.
-There is a checkerboard match on Le Chateau Apartments on Sherbrooke close to the MSC. It has the same 5x11 grid as the sleeves.
-The EU episode reveals more of the wall and there appears to be a perfect rectangle which could be representing the stolen Rembrandt from the Museum of Fine Arts
I've also manipulated the flower in the image using layers for each line/stroke. There is one area outside of the 67 area that does not align with how the image was drawn. The two petals to the right of the 67 are connected.
Take this all for what it is worth. I do not pretend to be one of the "experts" on the puzzles.
These are some great observations. One thing that has been nagging me is the detail on the top of the hat on the monk. On the right (his left) it looks like a face, or a shoreline, or something. Maybe it is a rough representation of the stolen Rembrandt?
bignate
Interesting ideas. I have 2 quick questions:
1. Where are the checkerboard patterns on le chateau apartments? If those fit, that would make the area pretty convincing.
2. Regarding the MSC, the thoughts about the imagine make sense, but if you are thinking verse 5 is the tie-in, i struggle with a forest member or white stone...
By the way, this is my first post here but hope to contribute in some small way eventually.
maltedfalcon
bignate wrote::
Interesting ideas. I have 2 quick questions:
1. Where are the checkerboard patterns on le chateau apartments? If those fit, that would make the area pretty convincing.
By the way, this is my first post here but hope to contribute in some small way eventually.
Welcome to the hunt!!
I'm not so sure about the checkerboards being convincing. in the same basic area, I have seen many many checkerboard patterns on floors, buildings, signs. etc.
also the stair-step (collar) seems to be a very very common architectural theme in this area
anus905
the connection to Rembrandt is that the painting is a replica of a rembrandt self portrait and the heist at the museum of fine arts. what rectangle are you referencing?
anus905
if you flip screen upside down ruffles look like a face, with the hair of the Rembrandt guy making a particularly 80s/French hairstyle.
anus905
its most likely the Ottawa River though...
drunknerds
bignate wrote::
Interesting ideas. I have 2 quick questions:
1. Where are the checkerboard patterns on le chateau apartments? If those fit, that would make the area pretty convincing.
2. Regarding the MSC, the thoughts about the imagine make sense, but if you are thinking verse 5 is the tie-in, i struggle with a forest member or white stone...
By the way, this is my first post here but hope to contribute in some small way eventually.
Welcome!
#2 is a solid point. If it's in such an urban location, you don't really need directions like "take 12 paces from somewhere," because there's not going to be a lot of area that's diggable. Unless the MSC had a white stone in its courtyard back in 1980. Where that pic...
... hmmm can't find it. Used to be a black and white pic of MSC in 1980 floating around. Here's an older one:
hxxp://www.memorablemontreal.com/docume ... 68-001.jpg
WhiteRabbit
bignate wrote::
Regarding the MSC, the thoughts about the image make sense, but if you are thinking verse 5 is the tie-in, i struggle with a forest member or white stone
Sure, though V2 could work at a stretch.
At the place where jewels abound
Fifteen rows down to the ground
Fifteen steps at the MSC
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end
Dunno, but worth investigating
Only three stand watch
Three leg-eating things on the legeater
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours
Dunno, though could be anywhere
Here is a sovereign people
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night!
Possible tie-in with the Quebec sovereignty movement. You'd have to assume a very obscure red herring for anyone who picked up
Abroad In America
, and it would tend to affirm the Charleston interpretation of Edwin and Edwina (because if they were both off it would be ridiculous)
Gnomes admire
Bankers, or "Gnomes of Zurich", mentioned in the book's Field Guide and on a plaque at the MSC
Fays delight
Dunno, though someone once suggested "Face the light" in the distant past, and this is a lamp
The namesakes meeting
Near this site
Dunno, bankers meeting perhaps.
It's not exactly FOY-standard, but, it's not impossible.
(Another small tie-in I like for this location is the litany reference to a "cloud of shifting, shining smoke", which is echoed in a description of the "oncoming smoke of trains and trade" in the story - all before the verses and images, so excluded from the "irrelevant" theory - George Stephen having been elected to the Montreal Board of Trade, and first president of the Canadian Pacific Railway.)
anus905
only I solved Charleston to the location in the painting with that verse but w.e. lol
bignate
maltedfalcon wrote::
I'm not so sure about the checkerboards being convincing. in the same basic area, I have seen many many checkerboard patterns on floors, buildings, signs. etc.
also the stair-step (collar) seems to be a very very common architectural theme in this area
Agreed, but if both checkers and stair step collar pattern were on the same building, that gets my attention. the courtyard area of the chateau apts does have he stairstep pattern on a wall, plus that area would be more secluded for the original dig. Although that area has been torn up in the past 10 years too...
MrBackstop
Let me thrown this out there for discussion.
I'm not a Big Foot fan and not having a clue as to the reason for the Primate Profile in the top of the Monk's hat, I find it interesting that Leif Erikson was the first known person to report Big Hairy Ape-like creatures in Canada when his crew arrived. Could this profile be a Sasquatch image being thrown in the mix for fun as a type of waymarker letting us know Image 9 is in Canada?
As I've mentioned before I first thought this image had something to do with the Golden Lion Tamarin in Montreal but later realized this animal was introduced to the area after the casque was buried. Is there a lot of folklore in Canada concerning sasquatch like there is here in the states? Curious if any of our Canadian searchers can answer that. I'm having trouble coming up with and other "famous" primates in Canada.
anus905
moreso out west, but the Micmac might.
Mister EZ
anus905 wrote::
only I solved Charleston to the location in the painting with that verse but w.e. lol
Using Verse 2...that White Rabbit was just using?
I thought you used Verse 2 for excavating the graveyard in St. Anthony's Garden / New Orleans and Verse 6 when you dug up the casque in Charleston.
Either way....since you've already dug up the casque for verse 2, it absolutely
can't
be a match for Montreal or image 9...
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
Let me thrown this out there for discussion.
I'm not a Big Foot fan and not having a clue as to the reason for the Primate Profile in the top of the Monk's hat, I find it interesting that Leif Erikson was the first known person to report Big Hairy Ape-like creatures in Canada when his crew arrived. Could this profile be a Sasquatch image being thrown in the mix for fun as a type of waymarker letting us know Image 9 is in Canada?
\
Bigfoot is primarily associated with Washington and, to a lesser extent, British Columbia.
atdreamer2112
anus905 wrote::
moreso out west, but the Micmac might.
I didn't want to bother Canada's First Nation People about Bigfoot, so I just googled "Canadian Sasquatch" instead and found this
Mister EZ
Looks like a future episode of "Destination
Elusive
Truth" starring Josh....and Josh.
anus905
I think its the Ottawa river, that double hump is there. just the end, where it outlets into the Atlantic by MTL.
anus905
ok ive done it.
ive mapped out the connections derived from the
Garibaldi
Candelabra
(aka Legeater)...
it is originally from the Giardino
Garibaldi
in Palermo, Italy.
it was designed by the Oretea Foundry for the 1891 Exhibition in Palermo (part of the ten year long National Exhibition series).
it was part of an exhibition on electricity, with 73 exhibitors (35 Italian, 33 French & 5 german).
gold silver and bronze medals were awarded to top exhibitors (I assume this
candelabra
placed either gold or bronze).
the MSH is designed in Italian Renaissance fashion.
there is a park dedicated to
Garibaldi
in MTL, though it's hard to tell if it's particularly significant, unless we're being taken through the rest of MTL (other than the GSM).
Giuseppe
Garibaldi
was one of the "Father's of the Fatherland"...and a "Hero of the Two Worlds"...admired by intellectuals across the world...he was an explorer, trader, and National icon...with particular connections to NYC.
in fact, this clue may lead to a side track in the NYC puzzle.
anus905
YES! found the overarching connecting.
Garibaldi
's personal chaplain inspired the Gavazzi Riots in Montreal!!! damn, Preiss is Go(o)d.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavazzi_Riots
anus905
annnnd all that points toward my location as bein absolutely correct!!!
if you can keep on following the symbolism...
anus905
this is the final connection, quite the road to get there though! so brilliant.
MrBackstop
JC, lots of info here. I'm curious as to what your explanation is for the PX7 Box. I've not heard any other explanations that would get me off my solve for it.
gManTexas
anus905 wrote::
ok ive done it.
ive mapped out the connections derived from the Garibaldi Candelabra (aka Legeater)...
it is originally from the Giardino Garibaldi in Palermo, Italy.
it was designed by the Oretea Foundry for the 1891 Exhibition in Palermo (part of the ten year long National Exhibition series).
it was part of an exhibition on electricity, with 73 exhibitors (35 Italian, 33 French & 5 german).
gold silver and bronze medals were awarded to top exhibitors (I assume this candelabra placed either gold or bronze).
the MSH is designed in Italian Renaissance fashion.
there is a park dedicated to Garibaldi in MTL, though it's hard to tell if it's particularly significant, unless we're being taken through the rest of MTL (other than the GSM).
Giuseppe Garibaldi was one of the "Father's of the Fatherland"...and a "Hero of the Two Worlds"...admired by intellectuals across the world...he was an explorer, trader, and National icon...with particular connections to NYC.
in fact, this clue may lead to a side track in the NYC puzzle.
And the connection is what exactly? How does this lead to the casque?
lost
possible link to
Leg Eater
Lxd = la baie (x) d'hudson 1670 in the flower
anus905
as ive previously noted the garibaldi candelabra is Italian. that seems to be british or Canadian...
anus905
MrBackstop wrote::
JC, lots of info here. I'm curious as to what your explanation is for the PX7 Box. I've not heard any other explanations that would get me off my solve for it.
dude I explained that when I originally posted. they deleted it!
take your google maps and follow rue peel up into McGill. on your left you will see the p (a side street) and on your right you have an BACKWARDS LAKE (backwards rune for lake) in the UNDERGROUND RESERVOIR which just so happens to have that symbol on it (a path).
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/mcgil ... 806217,19z
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/mcgil ... 580509,18z
I know. I'm the king.
but Preiss is God.
anus905
the x is on the building that drunknerds identified. same with the hashings.
lost
Hudson's Bay
Company
anus905
I get that, but how does Hudson bay company relate to the MSH...whats the connection? there has to be some sort of connection. I'm not seeing it.
anus905
I haven't even seen any evidence of a naval theme in this one...this one has a railroad theme.
drunknerds
lost wrote::
possible link to
Leg Eater
Cool pic.
How is this related to the legeater?
drunknerds
anus905 wrote::
I get that, but how does Hudson bay company relate to the MSH...whats the connection? there has to be some sort of connection. I'm not seeing it.
This has been confusing me too. Lost if you could break down your connections step-by-step it would go a long way towards helping others discuss it.
Like this, "Lxd = la baie (x) d'hudson 1670 in the flower" where does the x fit in? The way you wrote it makes it look like you took something with initials LBDH, removed two of the letters arbitrarily, turned one of the remaining letters into a lowercase, then introduced a third letter. I know that can't be what you're trying to say, but I'm having trouble applying any logic to deduce your intent.
anus905
been crushing this.
the Dutch connection definitely relates to the Boer War.
via Boer War monument in Dorchester Square, which the image clues send us to.
BINGO
anus905 wrote::
been crushing this
drunknerds
lost wrote::
Lxd = la baie (x) d'hudson 1670 in the flower
Also, in French, "La" means "the" and "d" loosely means "of." So it's like you took The Statue of Liberty and said Preiss abbreviated it as Txo
lost
fox eating a moose leg, i just thought it was inspired by the crest/ coat of arms of Hudson's Bay Company
Compagnie ( la Baie d'Hudson) the x is just a cross
Image 9 collar looks like Hudson Bay to me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson%27s_Bay_Company
drunknerds
lost wrote::
lxd
Thanks! Starting to make a tiny bit more sense.
Where do you get the cross from?
anus905
that's not entirely convincing, if only because I don't think its a fox or moose leg (do they have moose in Italy?).
also, the ON PQ border seems a better match to the collar, than does James Bay (Hudson's Bay is the larger bay).
anus905
theres def an English connection via the fact the statues in Dorchester Square are aligned in the shape of a cross, like it would fall on a Union Jack.
but I'm not seeing a specifically Hudson related connection, as a way of forging a connection with the Dutch.
I'm not finished this though (have only gone as far as DS for full puzzle map - treasure hunt ive completed)...so it could be there...so far I only have Rembrandt and boer war though.
anus905
I'm thinking the cover up of the fleur de lis is meant to look like either the habitat building...or possibly the Mary, Queen of the World Cathedral. leaning towards the latter myself.
the x in the square could very well represent the large cross up on Mount Royal.
much like how the large cross in st aug is hidden in the grass.
MrBackstop
MrBackstop wrote::
I like how this Image is for October, the jewel is an Opal and the location is Olympic Park.
What let me know I'm in the right area is that I have deciphered the PX7 Box in Image 9.
The 1976 Monteal Olympics had something happen that had never happened in the games before when it came to scoring. Today the scoring is completely different for gymnastics but back then the highest score you could receive was a 10, otherwise known as a "Perfect 10".
Nadia Comaneci
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Nadia was the darling of the games when she became the first person to ever score a
Perfect 10
in Olympic competition. The event was the uneven bars. This is important because when you look at the PX7 Box in Image 9 you will notice a bar across the top and the bottom of the box (uneven bars).
The letter "P" means Perfect
The "X" means 10
So you ask, what does the 7 mean? During the course of the Games, Nadia recorded 7 - Perfect 10s
PX7 Box tells me the casque is in Olympic Park not too far from the white stone with the Olympic rings.
I'm bumping my original solve for the PX7 Box. When Nadia got the first "10" in Olympic history it was a huge moment in sports. She ended up with 4 "10"s on the uneven bars and 3 "10"s on the balance beam. The box shows the uneven bars at the top and bottom, it also shows the representation of the balance beam with the thick part of the "X".
anus905
the lines arent uneven though...
i think its much more likely that the X is the Cross up on Mount Royal.
the black blob is def meant to represent 2 buildings...the Mary, Queen of the World Cathedral via its location in the image and via the connection bw the two...to St Joseph's Oratory, which they claim has the largest dome in the world.
also might be a ref to the habitat building which you walk past on the waterfront. (in Old Town)
anus905
its hard to believe he wouldn't at some point push you up Mount Royal.
that's about 5 things pointing you up there now
Oratory
Hospital
Cross
Chalet (Windswept halls)
and one other clue I'm not revealing at this point.
anus905
so the x in the square is DEFINITELY the Cross on Mount Royal.
and here's why...
the Boer War Monument in Dorchester Square (the leg/hoof sticking out of the square in the painting) was designed to face the cross on Mount Royal.
and you could see the cross from the square up till 1929.
so 100% the Cross.
anus905
so I'm not sure its important or not at this point...but there IS a hudsons bay connection.
via Lord Strathcona (Boer Monument is dedicated to Strathcona who sent a bunch of horses to the Boer War).
Strathcona was also a railroad man (which fits with the railroad theme of this puzzle).
and he joined Hudsons Bay Company when he was 18.
anus905
he was also its largest shareholder and CEO in the late 1880s.
anus905
oh, and he's first cousins with Stephen lol. theres that too.
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
I'm bumping my original solve for the PX7 Box. When Nadia got the first "10" in Olympic history it was a huge moment in sports. She ended up with 4 "10"s on the uneven bars and 3 "10"s on the balance beam. The box shows the uneven bars at the top and bottom, it also shows the representation of the balance beam with the thick part of the "X".
I know people love to do this, and they are fun and enlightening to read, but I am convinced that association creates too many solutions, infinite almost, for it to be useful in a puzzle. This is why there's never been a successful puzzle that uses association. Throw in the fact that there were exactly zero associative clues in the two solved casks, and it just baffles me why people keep doing this. Puzzle solving involves pattern recognition, and we have a pattern of hundreds of successful puzzles and two Preiss puzzles, none of which ever had associative elements. If one can't recognize a pattern where every single member of a set is exactly the same, how can one hope to solve a puzzle?
I could easily just say the P is a flag like in the start and finish lines of Olympic skiing and the X means cross-country, in the Olympics there are skiing events expressed as "[number] X [number]" In the 1976 Olympics there were exactly 7 cross country gold medals awarded. So it's the slopes not the stadium
Pick another place on the planet and I bet I could find a Px7 connection.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Pick another place on the planet and I bet I could find a Px7 connection.
Antartica. Go.
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Antartica. Go.
Lol, go.
anus905
the image introduces a connection to the 76 Olympics...so he might be onto something...I think he's wrong about the uneven bars though.
if anything, it points us toward Olympic Stadium as a location in the greater puzzle.
I think it's a fair reading.
anus905
fact that there's three things on the guy might reinforce this even, in relation to her three gold medals.
with the leg/hoof acting as Olympic stadium in this regard.
lost
lost wrote::
possible link to
Leg Eater
Lxd = la baie (x) d'hudson 1670 in the flower
drunknerds
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Antartica. Go.
The X is representative of the U.S.' first foray into the antarctic, which was named the Exploring Expedition. It's nickname? The "Ex Ex"
The most exciting story of Antartica is the race to plant the flag in the south pole. The "P" looks way more like a flag than a P
The flag represents P for "pole." Note how it appears shadowed, especially compared to the 7, indicating it is the lower, Southern Pole.
The first person to speculate there was a continent on the bottom of the earth was Ptolemy. Take the flag as a P, rotate the cross 45 degrees, and you have a T. Pt for Ptolemy.
Antartica was discovered in 1917. Take the P and flip it, you get a 9. The 7 next to the bottom right of the X looks like a 17. The quarter of the X right next to the "flag" is the other 1. 1917.
James cook's major expedition occured in 1773 and 1774. The flag flipped is a 4, the bottom right corner of the 1 is a 1. And there are so many 7s that can be found in the image
The bolded line of the X represents the Trans Antarctic Mountains, the pronounced range that splits the continent and is positioned in the exact same orientation as the aforementioned bolded line
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transantarctic_Mountains
Preiss was a publisher, one of the most famous stories about Antarctica (actually the most famous story I can remember by far), was "at the mountains of madness" by Lovecraft. It detailed a cryptic bunch of symbols on the huge mountains of antarctica that was eventually traced to old gods that lay sleeping under the continent. At the mountains of madness was rejected upon first publication, this is represented by the giant letter X (indicating rejection) over the cryptic symbols that might be a P a 9 a 1 a 7 or whatever.
Although antarctica seems like it has been frozen forever, there has been data indicating there is water flow under the shelves of ice. This is indicated by the bolded line of the X "flowing" between two light rectangles (ice shelves)
Most theories indicate that Antarctica used to be temperate and teeming with life. This is the kanji symbol for life:
hxxp://kanji-symbol.net/common/images/t ... 01-kai.gif
Note how it has the telltale P, and the pointed "roof" outined by the botton of the X. The X over the top of it indicates how there is no longer life there (When preiss discovered it, this was before the discovery of Vostok lake and the subsequent theories it contains frozen proof of life)
Antarctica's ice shelves are located on the 80th parallel. Notice how the "shelves" above and below the X are parallel.
The Canada connection might seem like a red herring for a dig site in Antarctica. But there is a huge glacier supplying water to Antarctic lakes called the Canada glacier.
The real key is in linking the flower in Image 9 to the pX7 in image nine, which I believe I am the first to do:
MrBackstop
JC
The uneven bars aren't actually uneven in width, one is just at a different height than the other.....uneven, like one bar on the box is above the bar on the bottom.
Drunknerds
That's a very detailed description, interesting and well thought out. I've learned a lot from reading this.
My interpretation of the Flower is this:
The flower itself represents Olympic Stadium. The center is the opening through the roof, the petals are the supports around the building.
The numbers:
67: The World's Fair was in 1967
76: Olympic Games of Montreal in 1976
77: The Montreal Expos started playing at Olympic Stadium in 1977
And I'll add this, the circle that forms the bottom of the "6" is indicating the direction of the casque from the stadium. I also see the flower as the "clock" in this Image. Using the that same circle this clock is set at 7:00
BINGO
drunknerds wrote::
The X is representative of the U.S.' first foray into the antarctic, which was named the Exploring Expedition. It's nickname? The "Ex Ex"
The most exciting story of Antartica is the race to plant the flag in the south pole. The "P" looks way more like a flag than a P
The flag represents P for "pole." Note how it appears shadowed, especially compared to the 7, indicating it is the lower, Southern Pole.
The first person to speculate there was a continent on the bottom of the earth was Ptolemy. Take the flag as a P, rotate the cross 45 degrees, and you have a T. Pt for Ptolemy.
Antartica was discovered in 1917. Take the P and flip it, you get a 9. The 7 next to the bottom right of the X looks like a 17. The quarter of the X right next to the "flag" is the other 1. 1917.
James cook's major expedition occured in 1773 and 1774. The flag flipped is a 4, the bottom right corner of the 1 is a 1. And there are so many 7s that can be found in the image
The bolded line of the X represents the Trans Antarctic Mountains, the pronounced range that splits the continent and is positioned in the exact same orientation as the aforementioned bolded line
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transantarctic_Mountains
Preiss was a publisher, one of the most famous stories about Antarctica (actually the most famous story I can remember by far), was "at the mountains of madness" by Lovecraft. It detailed a cryptic bunch of symbols on the huge mountains of antarctica that was eventually traced to old gods that lay sleeping under the continent. At the mountains of madness was rejected upon first publication, this is represented by the giant letter X (indicating rejection) over the cryptic symbols that might be a P a 9 a 1 a 7 or whatever.
Although antarctica seems like it has been frozen forever, there has been data indicating there is water flow under the shelves of ice. This is indicated by the bolded line of the X "flowing" between two light rectangles (ice shelves)
Most theories indicate that Antarctica used to be temperate and teeming with life. This is the kanji symbol for life:
hxxp://kanji-symbol.net/common/images/t ... 01-kai.gif
Note how it has the telltale P, and the pointed "roof" outined by the botton of the X. The X over the top of it indicates how there is no longer life there (When preiss discovered it, this was before the discovery of Vostok lake and the subsequent theories it contains frozen proof of life)
Antarctica's ice shelves are located on the 80th parallel. Notice how the "shelves" above and below the X are parallel.
The Canada connection might seem like a red herring for a dig site in Antarctica. But there is a huge glacier supplying water to Antarctic lakes called the Canada glacier.
The real key is in linking the flower in Image 9 to the pX7 in image nine, which I believe I am the first to do:
Absolutely LOVE what you did here.
With the help of the internet, just about anything can be connected to these hunts if the searcher tries hard enough.
The common theme seems to be, I reject your reality and substitute my own, here is the evidence to prove it.
erexere
The big flower looks like it could be a lot of things. I think if it as a tree stump, having seen many similarities of the generic kind. I thought it tied closely in "feel" to the lumbermans arch in Stanley Park. Maltedfalcon and I had a back and forth on the comparison years ago and it was inconclusive after he highlighted several disimilarities by a trace overlay to the sample picture I provided.
I discovered later there are actually 3 candidates to consider. I would like to have a closer look at the two other stump ends on the supporting log beneath the middle of the long portion.
As for the numeric highlight refered to as a "76", I think its a variable item. It also looks like letters "V" and "o", combined to look like a music note. It's difficult to say exactly, which is why we only have subjective claims.
Example:
anus905
the flower more likely represents dawson college...with the (upside down) hoof/leg representing Olympic Stadium.
I like the P 10 X 7 reading.
but I don't see the logic behind the stadium being the flower.
anus905
also this puzzle is September, so the # is 9. this is reinforced by the fact that the one clue in the verse tells you you must do the puzzle at night. (to see the lights lighting up the dome).
anus905
the stade would better fit a daisy or something. note the middle of the flower is not a circle, but like the hymen and stamen and shit...or another flower even.
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
My interpretation of the Flower is this:
The flower itself represents Olympic Stadium
Hey, can you post whatever pic of the stadium you are using for this comparison, please? I'm finding it hard to visualize based on what GIS is giving me, this would help me understand.
anus905
https://www.google.ca/maps/uv?hl=en&pb= ... oioI4QEwFg
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
The common theme seems to be, I reject your reality and substitute my own
But it's not reality that is being rejected, it's opinion. Drunknerd's little thought experiment (Bravo btw) should make that clear to anyone who is willing and able to make the distinction.
gManTexas
Came across this Art Deco poster on the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts website. Lot of connections here.
Beaver Hall Hill = The Artist Group I mentioned in my proposed solve.
Also, the Architects Building was designed and occupied by Ross and McDonald.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architect ... _(Montreal
)
McDonald name swap with John McDonald the First Prime Minister of Canada, who the Gnome is modeled after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Macdonald
There is some reasonable logic to tie the image to Rembrandt, and there was a Rembrandt stolen from the Art Museum in Montreal, the same one that displays works of art from the Beaver Hall Hill group, famous for their wind swept images.
I got all that from that blimp image. Yup. They are leading us on this path, although I believe that the path is just the walking tour to collect info. I took a few minutes to map some of the buildings that Ross and McDonald were responsible for in Montreal and guess what, you can start right at 2-22 Ste. Catherine, and hit several locations on your way to the MSC. Boom, boom, boom. It's like a breadcrumb trail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_and_Macdonald
The real challenge is figuring out the dig site, after taking the Tour du Montreal.
gManTexas
Came across this Art Deco poster on the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts website. Lot of connections here.
Beaver Hall Hill = The Artist Group I mentioned in my proposed solve.
Also, the Architects Building was designed and occupied by Ross and McDonald.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Architect
... _(Montreal
)
McDonald name swap with John McDonald the First Prime Minister of Canada, who the Gnome is modeled after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Macdonald
There is some reasonable logic to tie the image to Rembrandt, and there was a Rembrandt stolen from the Art Museum in Montreal, the same one that displays works of art from the Beaver Hall Hill group, famous for their wind swept images.
I got all that from that blimp image. Yup. They are leading us on this path, although I believe that the path is just the walking tour to collect info. I took a few minutes to map some of the buildings that Ross and McDonald were responsible for in Montreal and guess what, you can start right at 2-22 Ste. Catherine, and hit several locations on your way to the MSC. Boom, boom, boom. It's like a breadcrumb trail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_and_Macdonald
The real challenge is figuring out the dig site, after taking the Tour du Montreal.
anus905
what did they build at 2-22? cause that building was built in 2010-11. historically, before that it was an old shoe store and vacant lot for a while.
anus905
as far as I know it was even referred to as 2-22 (because it takes up the area from 2 to 22 St Catherine) until after that building was built.
gManTexas
Ste Catherine and Ste Laurent. The tan building with the peep shows and selling DVDs is 2 through 22 Ste. Catherine.
anus905
yea, exactly...so why is that a significant spot? seeing as it wasn't referred to as 2-22 until after, why would it be relevant to the reference Preiss used in the verse?
gManTexas
anus905 wrote::
yea, exactly...so why is that a significant spot? seeing as it wasn't referred to as 2-22 until after, why would it be relevant to the reference Preiss used in the verse?
Maybe the locals know.
anus905
I like beaver hall as a spot though.
MrBackstop
drunknerds wrote::
Hey, can you post whatever pic of the stadium you are using for this comparison, please? I'm finding it hard to visualize based on what GIS is giving me, this would help me understand.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... edIndex=22
The retractable roof is what would be the center of the flower. This poster shows the design well before completion.
MrBackstop
Today's view
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... edIndex=19
anus905
i think its a stretch personally, fits the leg/hoof better.
MrBackstop
It's simply my interpretation of symbolism. Why does everyone describe everyone elses interpretations as a "stretch". This amuses me.
Mister EZ
MrBackstop wrote::
It's simply my interpretation of symbolism. Why does everyone describe everyone elses interpretations as a "stretch". This amuses me.
I describe most of
my
interpretations as a stretch...
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
It's simply my interpretation of symbolism.
And mighty fine symbolism it is. Not quite in Josh's league, but that may be an unfairly high standard.
anus905
actually I think his Perfect 10 x 7 was pretty good. I even think the flower and two squares represent the 3 medals she won as well (as that would nicely align with another theme in this puzzle). he may even be right about the balance beam and uneven bars. it doesn't not fit so who am I to judge.
Mister EZ
anus905 wrote::
...... it doesn't not fit so who am I to judge.
Who are you and what have you done to Josh????
0_o
anus905
eh, if its right, its right.
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
It's simply my interpretation of symbolism. Why does everyone describe everyone elses interpretations as a "stretch". This amuses me.
Your defense is now "well, that's just, like, your opinion, man?"
Read the boards. Q4t has always been founded solidly in debate and disagreement. That's how the cleveland solve came to fruition.That's how philosophers have settled debates on what is truth for millenia
Read the thread. I gave an example of how interpretation and symbolism do nothing for advancing a solve, detailed how they have never been used in a puzzle ever, and shown how they have not been part of Preiss' two solved casks.
Read your post. You bumped an old post, and now are complaining that people are being critical of it. Uh, yeah, bumping it is asking for constructive criticism. It's not even a good match, it's literally this:
I am sorry to put you on blast specifically, it's not just you there are a lot of posters who seem to have a "post a lot but accept no criticism" mindset. I love your personality and posting style, but an ability to self-edit, adjust perspective, and take criticism is necessary in solving a frustrating puzzle on a messageboard. It used to be that way was the norm for q4t. But now people are coming with the attitude of "I want others to respect my posts, but I don't want to validate their constructivism," and it's just not leading to any advancement on solves
MrBackstop
Wow, you couldn't have read that with anymore personal prejudice if you tried.
I'm enjoying the feedback and just trying to say what I see or what I interpret pieces of art to be or words in a poem to mean. I was just having a little fun with Josh with my comment, that's all. I think it is actually funny how many times the word "stretch" is used.....a search reveals 25 pages of results.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
Wow, you couldn't have read that with anymore personal prejudice if you tried.
I'm enjoying the feedback and just trying to say what I see or what I interpret pieces of art to be or words in a poem to mean. I was just having a little fun with Josh with my comment, that's all. I think it is actually funny how many times the word "stretch" is used.....a search reveals 25 pages of results.
Some of those might say that you should stretch before hiking around a park looking for treasure.
MrBackstop
Always a good idea Gman. Don't want to pull a hammy.
anus905
its amazing how hes managed to incorporate the entire history of Canada into this little puzzle. so wild.
anus905
hey gman just made it to beaver hall hill, though not directly to 305.
anus905
i skipped a whole bunch and went back to finish it, and found the first and general beaver connection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Club
anus905
note the beaver club predates the square milers which is from where the golden square mile gets its name.
so damn good.
anus905
fyi beaver hall itself burned down in 1847. it was the home of joseph frobisher (chairman of the beaver club and board member of the nwc).
i do believe the building in the poster you linked is the bell telephone building. and the beaver hall group operated out of 305 beaver hall hill.
anus905
this one makes me realize how little I knew about Canada lol. so sad.
anyways, the HBC connection is via George Simpson, and the whole puzzle takes you through the conflict the HBC had with the NWC over Rupert's Land; up until Louis Riel led the Red River Rebellion; and numerous people from this puzzle worked on negotiations that saw RL being transferred from the HBC (where they held a 200 yr monopoly) to Canada; marking Manitoba's entrance into Confederation.
George Simpson was the administrator for the HBC in RL; essentially giving him control over the large swath of territory.
he lived in Lachine across from the fur trader historic site on the east end of the canal.
anus905
on top of dawson college, I think the flower is a reference to the flower on the door of the redpath museum:
anus905
having so much fun with this angle:
hxxp://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/r ... dexen.html
really rolling on mapping out this bad boy. currently writing about this. pretty goddamn rad. I think this might make james renner cum in his pants a little XD
davinci4
anus905 wrote::
on top of dawson college, I think the flower is a reference to the flower on the door of the redpath museum:
I have always liked the park adjacent to the RedPath museum as the burial site for Montreal. Never noticed the flower on the door before. Interesting.
anus905
i don't think theres any evidence its there.
davinci4
For what it’s worth:
At the place where jewels abound (Redpath museum, McGill University, home of collection of minerals)
Fifteen rows down to the ground (15 steps in front of the building, excluding the top platform)
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end (?trees surrounding neighboring park, location of casque)
Only three stand watch (three bares statue)
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours (college students after class)
Here is a sovereign people (general reference to Canada)
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night! (Nearby Windsor Hotel)
Gnomes admire (direct reference to jewel “image to verse”, see page 21 in book)
Fays delight (three bares statue reference)
The namesakes meeting (mount stephen club, george stephen house)
Near this site.
anus905
that's for the NO puzzle though...
Mister EZ
Yow....I forgot about that.
(Was the beginning of March that he declared that he had a non-Canadian site he was gonna dig in...)
So ya....how'd it go, JMDemster....?
If it was a bust, then clue us in as to where you were looking and why, por favor.
Spiritr
davinci4 wrote::
For what it’s worth:
At the place where jewels abound (Redpath museum, McGill University, home of collection of minerals)
Fifteen rows down to the ground (15 steps in front of the building, excluding the top platform)
In the middle of twenty-one
From end to end (?trees surrounding neighboring park, location of casque)
Only three stand watch (three bares statue)
As the sound of friends
Fills the afternoon hours (college students after class)
Here is a sovereign people (general reference to Canada)
Who build palaces to shelter
Their heads for a night! (Nearby Windsor Hotel)
Gnomes admire (direct reference to jewel “image to verse”, see page 21 in book)
Fays delight (three bares statue reference)
The namesakes meeting (mount stephen club, george stephen house)
Near this site.
so the museum makes jewels?
if McGill Downtown Campus is the correct spot and V2/i9 is the correct match, then this one will be the best of all 12.
Just from line 3 to line 7 and connecting it to McGill Downtown Campus , OMFG! I LOVE IT! that right there is good enough to make a Hollywood blockbuster!!!
davinci4
Yes. The Montreal location is interesting (and frustrating) since there are only a few possible parks in the whole city. Should narrow down location considerably. While the painting does not have a lot of imagery (like Milwaukee), the starircase design is seen on the roofs of the McGill Campus buildings nearby on Ave De Pins. There is also the legeater. Someone had also mentioned that the flower may resemble the ornament on the door of the RedPath Museum as well.
Spiritr
Nah, those flowers are everywhere like taxis in Manhattan, you can blindfold yourself and randomly pick a spot and that flower will still be in your site, thru out the entire downtown area.
davinci4
Another part here that could use ‘on the ground’ perspective is the “middle of 21.” Is it really be referring to the trees surrounding the park? Only so much info you can gain from google street view. Also could there be other image confirmers that make more sense once you are on site?
MrBackstop
DaVinci, I have that flower as representing Olymic Stadium in Montreal.
The numbers 67, 76, and 77 are significant to that building.
67 - World's Fair
76 - Montreal Olympics
77 - First year the Monteal Expos played their home games
davinci4
Love the Olympic Stadium solution!
Spiritr
davinci4 wrote::
Another part here that could use ‘on the ground’ perspective is the “middle of 21.” Is it really be referring to the trees surrounding the park? Only so much info you can gain from google street view. Also could there be other image confirmers that make more sense once you are on site?
No, and no
this, is the middle of 21
Spiritr
"As the sound of
friends
Fills the
afternoon hours
"
Prime Minister of France
Diceycat
3 stand watch could refer to the number of guard shacks or barriers controlling auto entrance into the campus
Spiritr
Diceycat wrote::
3 stand watch could refer to the number of guard shacks or barriers controlling auto entrance into the campus
From end to end here is what you should see
1, 2, and 3 (the covers used to be steps)
MrBackstop
Fenix wrote::
How is 1967 significant to The Big O? I’m missing something.
It's not, just a waymarker to Montreal.
The cool part of the number "6" in that part of the puzzle is that it shows my dig spot in relation to location near the Olympic Stadium.
hxxp://static1.bigstockphoto.com/thumbs ... 160393.jpg
MrBackstop
Just 76 and 77 were significant to Olympic Stadium themselves with the Olympics and the Montreal Expos.
What I find cool about this puzzle is how the flower is also represents a clock.
There are 12 petals and the little circle inside the number 6 represents the location of the dig spot in my solve. The "6" sits at approximately 7'oclock on the flower and would point you over to the esplanade in Olympic park. Continue in that direction and you will tie that together with the 12 paces west (Verse 5) of the sidewalk coming South from Olympic Park to find yourself closest to the White Stone wall with the Olympic Rings. The 12 paces will end up being the 12 stone sections that curve around the small cement wall turning to the SW and when you get to the 12th stone you are actually closer to the White Stone than the other 4 colored stone walls.
MrBackstop
I don't think it looks like it either, I just think it represents it. The one clue that nailed it down for me is the center of the flower and the center of Olympic Stadium. It was designed with a roof cover that would slide down cables to close the opening of the Stadium. When the cover was on the center of the Stadium looks like the center of a flower.
I see the Monk's fingers folded and bent like that representing the unusual supports of Olympic Stadium. And when you add in the PX7 box that puts me in my solve location.
JoshCornell
its def that flower by the museum that we saw fenix...musee mccord...where you go to get info directly relating to the puzzle. also probably dawson college. better fit for dawson than le stade imo. i think if anything le stade is the hoof turned upside down, but it wasnt fully complete in 81. though prob complete enough and preiss would have def saw an image of what it was supposed to look like youd think.
maltedfalcon
Fenix wrote::
When BP or Kelly buried the casque it would have probably been in the Spring of 1982.
Based on the lead time to get a book to press in 1982, and assuming the casques were in the ground by the finalization of the verses.
The last casque would have been buried Fall/Winter of 1981...
MrBackstop
Fenix, I see what your are saying but that doesn't change my vision of the Olympic Stadium as a symbol for the flower.
The center of the opening of the roof was a big deal when I was a kid because all that was being bragged about was how Montreal was going to have the first and largest, bestest, greatest retractable stadium roof in the world. It could be opened on hot days and closed during the cold months to protect the fans and players from the Canadian weather. The models were on Television and in print magazines/newspapers promoting the upcoming games and the top-notch facilities that the players were going to have access to.
So basically, what I'm saying is everything you stated about the big O is true but in my mind it is still the flower tied into the PX7 Box, The Olympic Village, The Oval Esplanade, Shape of the Monk's Nose and Fingers. These things scream Olympic Park to me.
JoshCornell
do you guys not look at anything i do? lol
MrBackstop
JoshCornell wrote::
do you guys not look at anything i do? lol
Josh, what about the possibility that we do take a look, agree with some ideas and not others....and then go along pursing our own ideas? Is that out of the realm of possibility in your world. I know that's how people look at my ideas.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Josh, what about the possibility that we do take a look, agree with some ideas and not others....and then go along pursing our own ideas?
I think this is how it works independently of whatever Josh thinks. I doubt it will have any effect on his approach to the puzzle in general, and more specifically, his posting style. But it can't hurt to ask, and the tone is appreciated.
MrBackstop
Fenix wrote::
I forgot to mention that all of the 76 Olympic gymnastic events were held at The Forum which is nowhere near Olympic Park in Montreal. It was home to the Montreal Canadiens, who won their 22nd Stanley Cup in 1977 and where Maurice "Rocket"(wingless bird) Richard ascended to fame.
The Olympics for any city are held at venues all over the place. The gymnastics were just part of the Summer Games in Montreal. Olympic Stadium is a big part of this puzzle in my solve but had nothing to do with Nadia.
As for the Rocket, could be....but I'm more inclined to believe that the wingless bird is in reference to the Velodrome.
I also have seen the "fleur de lis" as it was originally placed in the box with the "Leg Eater" and I believe that could be a hockey reference for the "Flower" himself...Guy Lelafleur.
bignate
I don’t think I’ve seen this posted before (apologies if so) but it looks like there is a good fit for that set of wrinkles on the right side of the hat. Looking at it from the white space side, there is a almost a shark fin type of bulge: compare that with voie camillien houde, which wraps around the west side of Mount Royal. Seems like a match. It doesn’t do much more than confirm Montreal as the city, but maybe it keeps the focus in the general area of Mount Royal as opposed to the Olympic Park or islands in the St. Lawrence?
JoshCornell
its very close, and connected to the mount royal clue in the beret, taking you to the belvedere there, where you are taken to get a particular view...youd go that way to get to the old cemeteries (i picked some awesome chicken of the woods while i was there lol). in the cemeteries you see two of the three high posts are three ruse clues (with the third being the cross). youd also go there. and the chalet is an obvious choice for one use of the windswept halls clue. go there too. but most importantly the maison
MrBackstop
https://architectureofthegames.net/wp-c ... rk-Map.jpg
Never seen this discussed before, ....the "J" and "9" hair on the left forehead.
The old architecture map of the Olympic Park shows the number 9 at the bottom of the "J" shaped esplanade which goes from the PIE X subway station to the stadium.
On the other side of the forehead is several wave-strands of hair. These appear to be the Inernational Plaza (#6 on the map) and PIE X parking garage.
And as mentioned previously, Lane 222 (Sherbrooke St) runs right thru the park.
Any other thoughts on these clues?
Spiritr
any more maps from 80's?
MrBackstop
Here's another color version:
https://architectureofthegames.net/wp-c ... p-2016.jpg
Spiritr
you already have .CA in the 80's???
Kalessin
The black and white drawing was made by software that wasn't available in the 1980s. Autocad was first released in 1982, but its output didn't look like that.
MrBackstop
Kalessin wrote::
The black and white drawing was made by software that wasn't available in the 1980s. Autocad was first released in 1982, but its output didn't look like that.
Yeah I know, I used to run autocad software in the early 90s, really raw crap at the time. But what's the point of this statement?
MrBackstop
Spiritr wrote::
you already have .CA in the 80's???
.CA?
Spiritr
parcolympique.qc.CA
in 1982, got it?
Kalessin
MrBackstop wrote::
Yeah I know, I used to run autocad software in the early 90s, really raw crap at the time. But what's the point of this statement?
That things like numbers on the map are probably not going to be much help.
MrBackstop
https://architectureofthegames.net/cate ... -montreal/
Except for in this type of map which is a site map. As you can see by looking at the 1976 site map for Olympic Park that the PIE X subway station is listed as #9. It is also listed as #9 on the 2016 map. Many other items changed as the blue prints for the park were adjusted.
I'm curious as to what others are thinking the "J" and "9" might be other than that. I am always trying to find reasons to get away from my solve but have not been able to when it comes to Montreal.
Spiritr
MrBackstop wrote::
I'm curious as to what others are thinking the "J" and "9" might be other than that. I am always trying to find reasons to get away from my solve but have not been able to when it comes to Montreal.
the J and 9 might be other than that?
are you trying to say you alway wonder what other then what this J9 means right?
what you should be thinking when trying to solve a clue is what's another reason for this to be here? instead of get away from it.
Spiritr
as per requests, i will demonstrate how I will do to get a undeniable MAP, and show you what looks like, is not good enough, EXACT, is what we want, open up a tab on earth, add, add overlay image, your image 8 might look a little different than mine, that's not gonna change anything, mine is just slightly more original, not gonna change anything until the very last step which is after we done with this wheelchair hunt at home, and head right to the spot, *maybe then it matters, but for now, just input these coordinates , into the properties tab of the name of your image. it should looks exactly like this. ( Use my image as an extra overlay to match the grid, it shouldn't be that hard)
Now, open up the image properties and start playing around with the transparency, a very good way to verify if it's a EXACT match or not, even the slightest hair that was missing should now be seen, from left to right, from top to bottom.
keep looking for the number "3" and match as much as you could if it still didn't lined up, remember everything should be EXACTLY the same when it comes to Maps and Numbers, 19 is almost 20, or between 18. NO, that's 37 year ago, today we should try matching every single lines, the creases of his dress, the back wall, if it's in the picture, we match it, and NOT only a part of it and claim it's done.
While some of you might be asking how I got those coordinates and what's with this 3, well...it doesn't really matters
Now if all the 3's are matchable and looking exactly like this:
MrBackstop
Spiritr wrote::
the J and 9 might be other than that?
are you trying to say you alway wonder what other then what this J9 means right?
what you should be thinking when trying to solve a clue is what's another reason for this to be here? instead of get away from it.
That's what I'm talking about. I try to find other reasons for clues. If another path gets me away from an area and presents another, I persue that as well.
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
as per requests, i will demonstrate how I will do to get a undeniable MAP,
Don't need you do show us how to do an overlay and transparency.
Do you overlay and point out exactly the pieces you are using to line up your images.
I basically see a map and and image overlaid that do not really have any corresponding points.
if you move the image up or down or left or right or scaled it, I don't see it would match any better or worse.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I don't see it would match any better or worse.
That's because he hasn't worked his "magic" yet. Give the man a chance Matt.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
That's because he hasn't worked his "magic" yet. Give the man a chance Matt.
Sorry, I mis-understood, I thought it was supposed to be self-evident from those images.
JoshCornell
i already have a full map and a treasure map...and ive given you guys the treasure map...
*smacks head*
MrBackstop
Fenix wrote::
Check that J9 closer. I see M.
M? I kinda see what you are saying. What do you think an "M" might mean for this then as opposed to my "J" and "9" explanation?
Spiritr
Mr.Blandford, instead of thinking what J9, or M, or whatever it is. The question should be why is this thing placed over there, is it random? if not, what else is in there
maltedfalcon, all I can say is l
Fenix, perhaps you're right, you're at the very last step, there's no point of me doing all these because you probably already knew
Erpobdelliforme, Thank you, but I'll stop right here because you see it as magic, while others see it as witchcraft. A lesson from history, just because I know things most people don't, I'll most likely end up being tied and burn to death. So I'll just hush for now.
MrBackstop
Hmmmmm....I thought that's what I did. You know, bring up clues, give an idea as to what your thoughts are, and ask others what their ideas were.
Spiritr
you're right, there are so many questions to ask, and you never know if you don't ask....
to the people who knew exactly where the dig site is, I'm sure you know what these are, would you kindly name these out for us?
,
JoshCornell
best guess =
hxxp://cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Gruagach
or
hxxp://cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Gugwe
Spiritr
MrBlackstop, here, you asked for what it is right? it's an eye of an animal,
JoshCornell
im leaning towards the former, as they are considered either brownies or bigfoot...and brownies are directly ref'd in the book...gruagach is a scottish gaelic term, so that would be the connection.
bignate
Spiritr wrote::
you're right, there are so many questions to ask, and you never know if you don't ask....
to the people who knew exactly where the dig site is, I'm sure you know what these are, would you kindly name these out for us?
,
As for the squiggles on your left screenshot, this is what I wrote a few days ago (keeping in mind I have no clue where the final site would be):
I don’t think I’ve seen this posted before (apologies if so) but it looks like there is a good fit for that set of wrinkles on the right side of the hat. Looking at it from the white space side, there is a almost a shark fin type of bulge: compare that with voie camillien houde, which wraps around the west side of Mount Royal. Seems like a match. It doesn’t do much more than confirm Montreal as the city, but maybe it keeps the focus in the general area of Mount Royal as opposed to the Olympic Park or islands in the St. Lawrence?
Spiritr
bignate wrote::
As for the squiggles on your left screenshot, this is what I wrote a few days ago (keeping in mind I have no clue where the final site would be):
I don’t think I’ve seen this posted before (apologies if so) but it looks like there is a good fit for that set of wrinkles on the right side of the hat. Looking at it from the white space side, there is a almost a shark fin type of bulge: compare that with voie camillien houde, which wraps around the west side of Mount Royal. Seems like a match. It doesn’t do much more than confirm Montreal as the city, but maybe it keeps the focus in the general area of Mount Royal as opposed to the Olympic Park or islands in the St. Lawrence?
No, I think it's better if you focus on the image first, until you know what these are, don't just tell me what it looks like, find it, match it, it's an EXACT match, just overlay the image onto it, keep this in mind , practice walking before you run, until you know how to walk, don't even think about running.
JoshCornell
camille houden works but with the OTHER side of the beret...not this side.
bignate
Spiritr wrote::
No, I think it's better if you focus on the image first, until you know what these are, don't just tell me what it looks like, find it, match it, it's an EXACT match, just overlay the image onto it, keep this in mind , practice walking before you run, until you know how to walk, don't even think about running.
I don’t believe the exercise here is to overlay the entire map of Montreal on the image. To me it is a pretty clear match that to the road. Again, it is not a big clue we’re talking about here, just possibly a nudge to stay in the Mount Royal area.
As a more general point, in my short experience with this group, the value comes from the exchange of ideas of what we think things look like in the images and what we think the verses allude to. This is a process of speculation and open exchange of ideas.
Spiritr
I'm sorry I apologized, I'll have it remove, you are right, I was wrong. Thanks for pointing it out, how grateful it was to have someone like you with such bright vision on board, welcome.
if you see anything I posted doesn't fit your solution please inform me I'll remove it right away.
MERLIN
In the spirit of creating even more confusion.......has anyone ever considered Montreal Wisconsin?
MrBackstop
Spiritr wrote::
you're right, there are so many questions to ask, and you never know if you don't ask....
to the people who knew exactly where the dig site is, I'm sure you know what these are, would you kindly name these out for us?
,
Certainly, the Bigfoot profile is in reference to Leif Erikson. He is the first person to document sightings of Big hairy creatures walking around on 2 legs. Erikson landed in North America some 500 years before Columbus and actually wrote down his experiences of seeing these creatures in the New World.
The gold and black checkerboard patterns are all over Montreal but this one has to do with Station Viau located at Olympic Park. Inside is an art mural called Opus 74. The roof of Station Viau has a black and gold window pane designs that allow natural light to come into the building.
hxxp://www.metrodemontreal.com/art/mousseau/opus74.jpg
MrBackstop
MERLIN wrote::
In the spirit of creating even more confusion.......has anyone ever considered Montreal Wisconsin?
Interesting question....I have not since my solve is in Olympic Park.
What do you like about Montreal, Wisconsin Merlin? Have you found some good clues and matches there?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
In the spirit of creating even more confusion.......has anyone ever considered Montreal Wisconsin?
With all due respect Merlin, the only people that question is going to confuse are the ones who don't have even the most basic understanding of how this puzzle works. The rest of us are busy looking for hidden clues in a translation of a translation. Fun stuff.
Welcome to the fun house.
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
In the spirit of creating even more confusion.......has anyone ever considered Montreal Wisconsin?
I haven't.
But, since I'm not one of the enlightened few who 'know' with all certainty how the puzzles work, I also haven't considered Charleston, Arizona.....Charleston, Alaska.....Charleston, California.....Charleston, Illinois.....Charleston, Iowa....Kansas, Kentucky, Maine or West Virginia....for Image 2.
Instead, like a lemming, I jumped straight to Charleston, South Carolina.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Instead, like a lemming, I jumped straight to Charleston, South Carolina.
I don't suppose the map of Charleston, South Carolina in Image 2 had anything to do with your leap?
jayheedan1
MrBackstop wrote::
What do you like about Montreal, Wisconsin Merlin? Have you found some good clues and matches there?
For all we know Merlin may have found “a map” in the image that points to his inquiry of Montreal Wisconsin. I think that is the point being made and why the question was asked what clues/matches have you found.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
For all we know Merlin may have found “a map”
Have you looked at a map of Montreal, Wisconsin? And before you answer, please consider why we think it's in Montreal, Canada in the first place. Hint: it's not a map.
Tag.
Mister EZ
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I don't suppose the map of Charleston, South Carolina in Image 2 had anything to do with your leap?
/me scratches his head
Hmmmm......now that I think about it....it might have.
And, my response regarding a bunch of obscure Charleston locations (that the world doesn't know exist), didn't contain an iota of light-hearted sarcasm. (Then again....it might have...)
;-]
Two interesting things about Montreal, WI: While it doesn't seem to contain a downtown area or business district, it *does* have at least one park. Google Earth shows that entire park as being exactly 3' x 3'. Perfect size for a casque.
Now, if I can just find a major highway leading there
or
a nearby airport, I
might
go there to take a look.
jayheedan1
No I haven’t looked at a map of Montreal WI. Was that even what made Merlin bring up this location? until Merlin responds with any of his findings why would I?
Or was he just “putting this idea” out there so others can ‘explore and discover the connections for themselves’ to expand their understanding of the hunt and how they connect the puzzles. So in the spirit of vague inferences from, the slow burn thread, I can make an extreme jump and assume that their a second casque hidden in Wisconsin because of course we know that ‘fairy secrets come in twos.’ So that must be the answer because some of us know better and we just trying to educate the rest of you. Who do I sound like now?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
light-hearted sarcasm
No worries EZ, I can usually tell the difference between sarcasm and snark. My response was to the latter. It's all good.
BTW, casque of no, Northern Wisconsin is lovely. I highly recommend it.
Peace
Mister EZ
jayheedan1 wrote::
No I haven’t looked at a map of Montreal WI. Was that even what made Merlin bring up this location? until Merlin responds with any of his findings why would I?
Or was he just “putting this idea” out there so others can ‘explore and discover the connections for themselves’ to expand their understanding of the hunt and how they connect the puzzles. So in the spirit of vague inferences from, the slow burn thread, I can make an extreme jump and assume that their a second casque hidden in Wisconsin because of course we know that ‘fairy secrets come in twos.’ So that must be the answer because some of us know better and we just trying to educate the rest of you. Who do I sound like now?
I'll play.
You sound like.....Rasputin...? (Imho)
Hey....Google just showed me this, on "Michigan" Ave in Montreal, WI (connection to Lake Michigan and image 10 or image 5, too?):
Oh, wait. That's in Quebec. Nevermind.
Mister EZ
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
BTW, casque of no, Northern Wisconsin is lovely. I highly recommend it.
Peace
Absolutely.
Door county, too. It's stunning in the fall and easier to get to.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I'll play.
Excellent. I'm sure you two can work it out. If you run into trouble, you might want to check out the "Slow Spill" thread for hints.
Have an excellent day.
Mister EZ
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Excellent. I'm sure you two can work it out. If you run into trouble, you might want to check out the "Slow Spill" thread for hints.
Have an excellent day.
lol
MrBackstop
jayheedan1 wrote::
For all we know Merlin may have found “a map” in the image that points to his inquiry of Montreal Wisconsin. I think that is the point being made and why the question was asked what clues/matches have you found.
So I ask a genuine question to try and find out what Merlin likes about Montreal Wisconsin and I get a translation to the original statement. Understand something simple, I'm one of the searchers that has found and promoted the idea that there are hidden maps (hat tip to karlene as well ) in many of these Images. So my point is, I hope Merlin has found a map. Now hopefully he will answer my original question.
And let me say this, I cant imagine that there would be two casques buried in Wisconsin. But the again, that could be one of the geniuses of this hunt huh?
MERLIN
Hey guys....I was wrong about Wisconsin - BUT I think Hudson Bay may be important - needs further research.
MERLIN
JoshCornell wrote::
lol wow...
Ahhh yes.....another rich contribution from the "Lord of the Holes"
dizalot
MERLIN wrote::
Ahhh yes.....another rich contribution from the "Lord of the Holes"
Choice
I was researching something unrelated when I came across this picture of building gargoyles in NYC. I thought of the Image 9 and how it's half sad and half happy.
Then I got distracted and searched for one for Montreal! Here's one for Christ church Cathedral in Montreal. Notice the hooves. I think I read somewhere the floor of the church is checkered.
jayheedan1
But also this is the Dutch/German image so here is a picture of a German style gargoyle for references sake.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8561740@N08/7836219498
jayheedan1
Sorry when I did a gargoyle search it came up and the immature child in me could not resist but to share.
Mister EZ
jayheedan1 wrote::
Sorry when I did a gargoyle search it came up and the immature child in me could not resist but to share.
"Ultimately, to generate funds for continuing work on the cathedral, he initiated a tax on hops (
thus raising the price of beer
), a move that may have influenced the grotesque ornamentation added by stone carvers at the base of his statue"
Yeah....I would have rebelled and balked, too....
=]
Choice
Happy/sad ... wedding/funeral happens in church.
jayheedan1
Well my bad, the German reference is Milwaukee. I largely think of Dutch as German people but it also includes Netherlands, which is the immigrant reference I meant to use in this case.
Delilah84
Hi guys,
Sorry to write about something irrelevant and useless, but I just bumped into this today:
Don't you think there is a surprising similarity between these two guys?
Well, meet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Macdonald
, Canada's prime minister between 1867–1873, 1878–1891, also well known because he was on 10 dollars banknotes, also in the 80's...
Of course, it's in "gnomified" version, but that peculiar nose shape, the unkempt hair, the puffy eyelids (in other pics this trait is more evident).
Sorry in case this was already pointed out, I couldn't find any relevant post about this...
What do you think?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Yes, it’s defintiley MacDonald.
Or Woody Allen.
MERLIN
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Or Woody Allen.
Get with the program people!!! -
https://www.channel24.co.za/Movies/News ... m-20151230
Delilah84
Thanks for pointing out! I couldn't find anywhere the reference, not even in any wiki, so I thought it was not mentioned before.
(I laughed so hard for Woody Allen and Gerard Deparieu XD)
Choice
Disclaimer: Newish to this thread. Has the coin-like image on the opal been discussed? Similar to the old George V coins from early 1900's..
funsun
Prime Minister MacDonald also created Yoho Park around Mount Stephen. (Mount Stephen is where I think the treasure is buried. The leg eater itself is too obvious. The legeater is in front of the Mount Stephens Club.) Also you need permission to dig at Mount Stephen in Yoho park. That is why he says get permission to dig.
Delilah84
@Funsun Lately I was pointing towards another solution but after listening to the Japanese translation podcast I'm starting to reconsider it, so I also got back to the most evident one, Mount Stephen. As other people were pointing out for the CHI and CLE solves, inside the pic there IS a physical object linking to the dig site. In MTL image there is none apart from the legeater. It must be there. And I think the asymmetrical collar of the guy could represent the asymmetrical steps of Mount Stephen's staircase. Did anyone ever ask permission there? Also they completely destroyed the place to rebuild it if I'm not wrong; if it was in the front flower bed it's most probably gone...
Another thing I'm missing. I was sure the solve I consider could match well with the MTL poem #5, but after the Japanese translation, where it is stated that LANE is a proper name for something, I am no longer sure about poem 5. Is there any chance it is not related to MTL? I cannot think of anything matching with Mount Stephen area...
funsun
The mountain outline on his hat at the right is Mount Stephen.
Choice
In the flower, the so called "40" is a flipped musical note "eighth" or "quaver".
Could also symbolize a flagpole.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
In the flower, the so called "40" is a flipped musical note "eighth" or "quaver".
Could also symbolize a flagpole.
Looks like a quaver to me....too big to be a hemisemidemiquaver.
(Edit: and, it only has 1 tail, not 4....it couldn't be anything but a quaver, if it actually represents a musical note.)
Choice
That part of the flower looks like a cathedral type building. Flag part of the note looks like steeple/spire part. Note symbol for bell chime?
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
That part of the flower looks like a cathedral type building. Flag part of the note looks like steeple/spire part. Note symbol for bell chime?
For the yellow and green lines....sure, why not.
But, the red one comes from the disjointed, pixalated ink blob that covers up the Fleur de Lis. No idea if that blob was added intentionally to hide the Fleur de Lis or if it was an error from the printer (that became pixalated when digitized...was probably not from digitizing, the blocks are too large to be pixels).
I think that if those lines were intended to be used together, they would have been grouped together in the image, placed in the correct orientation. (Just my opinion.)
Choice
Mister EZ wrote::
For the yellow and green lines....sure, why not.
But, the red one comes from the disjointed, pixalated ink blob that covers up the Fleur de Lis. No idea if that blob was added intentionally to hide the Fleur de Lis or if it was an error from the printer (that became pixalated when digitized...was probably not from digitizing, the blocks are too large to be pixels).
I think that if those lines were intended to be used together, they would have been grouped together in the image, placed in the correct orientation. (Just my opinion.)
I think the blocks were added so the image doesn't get automatically accepted as New Orleans. Connection to the church is the goat gargoyle I mentioned earlier.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&start=2067
funsun
MERLIN wrote::
In the spirit of creating even more confusion.......has anyone ever considered Montreal Wisconsin?
Wow, no I never thought of that.... I will keep an open mind.. I think it is at the base of mount Stephen in yoho park in Canada. I'm trying to think anything but the obvious on a few of these images... because thousands of people have tried to solve it with Montreal and haven't unearthed anything. I feel that many of the Montreal solves were pretty good... but still it isn't there. If you try doing something and it isn't working...I feel I should try something else.
MERLIN
I think Mount Stephen has a lot of potential. I don't think the verses are correct for Montreal though.
Choice
How about Baltimore! Here's the flag of Maryland.
MERLIN
U BEST STOP WITH THAT CRAZY TALK
Kalessin
It is supremely unlikely that the blob is a pixelated anything. Digital image editing wasn't yet a thing in 1981.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
U BEST STOP WITH THAT CRAZY TALK
Sorry, I'll be good... Des Moines, Iowa??
Choice
Hey Baltimore sounds good right now. The character could be
Poe
. Afterall he has prominent "crows-feet".
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
St. Louid...Yoho Park around Mount Stephen...Baltimore...Des Moines, Iowa??
Wow. Looks like war has been declared against Canada. I'd blame Josh, but he hasn't been around for weeks.
Choice
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Wow. Looks like war has been declared against Canada. I'd blame Josh, but he hasn't been around for weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA
MERLIN
NOW U GONE AND DUN IT!!! -
https://miraimages.photoshelter.com/ima ... IbQMoT4MgU
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
NOW U GONE AND DUN IT!!! -
https://miraimages.photoshelter.com/ima ... IbQMoT4MgU
What's all this violence aboot?!
MERLIN
I apologize if this question was answered previously - but there are just too many pages to read. Was the mystery of the "Blob" ever resolved?
gManTexas
MERLIN wrote::
I apologize if this question was answered previously - but there are just too many pages to read. Was the mystery of the "Blob" ever resolved?
Yes. Search for fleur de lis. Essentially, the thought is that prior to printing, it was covered up.
MERLIN
gManTexas wrote::
Yes. Search for fleur de lis. Essentially, the thought is that prior to printing, it was covered up.
I was looking at it - and I think it's a Hockey player wearing all the pads and protective equipment - and it looks like the end of the hockey stick extends into the center of the Legeater joint....thoughts?
gManTexas
MERLIN wrote::
I was looking at it - and I think it's a Hockey player wearing all the pads and protective equipment - and it looks like the end of the hockey stick extends into the center of the Legeater joint....thoughts?
Maybe in an 8-bit world.
MERLIN
I'm not sure we are talking about the same Blob. We need Malted Falcon
Mister EZ
gManTexas wrote::
Maybe in an 8-bit world.
The early '80's
was
an 8-bit world.
MERLIN
I think I feel a seizure coming on
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
I think I feel a seizure coming on
Poképong GO!!!!!
MERLIN
Time to file for a patent!
Choice
More like space invaders
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
NOW U GONE AND DUN IT!!! -
https://miraimages.photoshelter.com/ima ... IbQMoT4MgU
Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa.
Did you just put a spell on us???? -
https://thiscougarhassomethingtosay.fil ... il_nun.png
Choice
I think I'm gonna go search in the Nun's Island!
MERLIN
Continuing from image #1 thread.....is Choice around?
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Continuing from image #1 thread.....is Choice around?
Im here
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Im here
Hey Bro....You did me a real "solid" with that justice image - I wanted to share with you what I believe to be the image match for the large flower on the right side of the characters outfit.....Let me know what you think -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntreal.jpg
Choice
Seen one cathedral seen all! They all look the same to me. I was going with the Christ church cathedral because of the goat gargoyle looks similar to the combination of the guy in the painting and the bootie biter with hooves.
MERLIN
One other thing I found.....In the square above the Legeater image - people talk about the X in the box......It's not an X - it's a Saint Patricks Cross.
Choice
The first pages of the book has a sample solve that looks very similar to the character in the painting. And it's face matches the gargoyle in the sample drawing. Also similar musical notes on top of the wrought iron fencing.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
You did me a real "solid" with that justice image
MERLIN
Thanks again Choice. I believe the immigration reference to this puzzle is Irish not Dutch. -
hxxp://216.48.92.16/omeka2/jmccutcheon/ ... n-montreal
Choice
One normally connects Quebec to French but connection to Englestan is understandable.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
One normally connects Quebec to French but connection to Englestan is understandable.
Yeah...I was just going off of the Wiki interpretation.
Spiritr
Unknown:
I believe the immigration reference to this puzzle is Irish not Dutch.
REALLY!? You sure it's Irish and not African Americans?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
REALLY!? You sure it's Irish and not African Americans?
Another invaluable contribution.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Another invaluable contribution.
Unintentional irony at its finest. Bravo.
Choice
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Unintentional irony at its finest. Bravo.
And yet another.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Let me know what you think -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntreal.jpg
Your T in justice looks like a Victory or an angel with it's wings spread. Have a match?
Similar to:
Note the X at the base.
MERLIN
Cool image....it definitely could have been where palencar sourced the idea from....check out this link - the small window - just above the large flower window. I wonder if the small window is "Ace is high"?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntreal.jpg
Choice
That's more like a club or clover than ace. But the copper green steeple/spire on top can be considered an ace.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
That's more like a club or clover than ace. But the copper green steeple/spire on top can be considered an ace.
I noticed something else that I think points to the Irish - I want to know if you can see it too - The jewel or dot on the middle of the hat - about 2 checker squares to the right - there are some letters in some of the gold squares - 3 letters...can you make out what they are.
Choice
Y, K with an eye, Martini glass?!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Y, K with an eye, Martini glass?!
No soup for u...
https://thiscougarhassomethingtosay.fil ... il_nun.png
Choice
But definitely martini glass, right?!
MERLIN
To me it looks like I-R-A
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
To me it looks like I-R-A
Oh geez, who needs soup when I got my martini. (I think you had too many)
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Oh geez, who needs soup when I got my martini. (I think you had too many)
I think you're right
MERLIN
Ace is high???
https://www.encirclephotos.com/image/ba ... al-canada/
funsun
Delilah84 wrote::
@Funsun Lately I was pointing towards another solution but after listening to the Japanese translation podcast I'm starting to reconsider it, so I also got back to the most evident one, Mount Stephen. As other people were pointing out for the CHI and CLE solves, inside the pic there IS a physical object linking to the dig site. In MTL image there is none apart from the legeater. It must be there. And I think the asymmetrical collar of the guy could represent the asymmetrical steps of Mount Stephen's staircase. Did anyone ever ask permission there? Also they completely destroyed the place to rebuild it if I'm not wrong; if it was in the front flower bed it's most probably gone...
Another thing I'm missing. I was sure the solve I consider could match well with the MTL poem #5, but after the Japanese translation, where it is stated that LANE is a proper name for something, I am no longer sure about poem 5. Is there any chance it is not related to MTL? I cannot think of anything matching with Mount Stephen area...
Delilah84... I think I missed your post. Thank you very much. I like other people's insights.
beauseja9
Do you guys also see a face just underneath the left curl in his hair? It looks like a monkey with two big nostrils - or probably a gargoyle.
JoshCornell
i dont think its a gargoyle, it looks more like a theatre mask with a gasping expression. it points us to the comedie canadienne thatre (and in turn just for laughs festival)...but also to jacques plante (who wore the first goalie mask for the montreal canadiennes) (there is a connection bw those two clues that points us toward the final location of the treasure).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratien_G ... idolin.jpg
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grim ... -_1936.jpg
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Can we rewind 10 years or so? Ravel07 stumbles upon the two legeater lamps in Montreal. Nobody has been able to find another in North America since.
I'm sure that we can all agree that we were not intended to come across the lamps by pure luck. How do you all believe that we were supposed to find the lamps?
There is one in the Boston Public Library and I think another one somewhere. I think if you search on here you can find the info.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
There is one in the Boston Public Library and I think another one somewhere. I think if you search on here you can find the info.
One at 333 Comm Ave too here in Bos.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/333+C ... 71.0875216
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Sure, there is also a pair 2 blocks over on Peel in Montreal at the MAAA,
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.5013967,-73.5757084,3a,39.6y,221.54h,91.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slnLOaBEGkDCYK84wo7f1iw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
None of these are matches to the painting though. I'll rephrase my question if that helps. See below.
I'm sure that we can all agree that we were not intended to come across the lamps by pure luck. How do you all believe that we were supposed to find the lamps that are a match to the painting?
Not to sound glib, but once you have the city nailed down, by looking around for clues and associations. Just like some of the features in the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
I suppose that could be true and am not at all trying to discredit it but would you agree that something gets you to that location in Chicago?
Coordinates, map overlays, objects that identify the city and relative area.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
In conjunction with verse lines, etc, etc. Agreed.
In Montreal, we have:
Coordinates
Maps
River
Prime Minister
and an exact match of the base of a small lamp
I agree. Is there some doubt that a casque is (or was) in Montreal? There seems to be a lot of evidence pointing to Montreal.
gqchu
Has there been any correlations of casque locations with World's Fair host locations or more just coincidence?
New
York, San Fran, Chicago, Cleveland seems to be there although St. Augustine doesn't.
https://americasbesthistory.com/usworldsfairs.html
gqchu
Has there been any correlations of casque locations with World's Fair host locations or more just coincidence? New York, San Fran, Chicago, Cleveland seems to be there although St. Augustine doesn't.
https://americasbesthistory.com/usworldsfairs.html
gManTexas
gqchu wrote::
Has there been any correlations of casque locations with World's Fair host locations?
https://americasbesthistory.com/usworldsfairs.html
I have thought the same thing, however I think it is coincidental, since many of the cities are major and historically important. This theory obviously breaks down when we start looking at St. Augustine and Roanoke Island.
Mister EZ
gqchu wrote::
Has there been any correlations of casque locations with World's Fair host locations?
https://americasbesthistory.com/usworldsfairs.html
Well, the World's Fair in Chicago wasn't in Grant Park.....so, if there is a correlation, it's just to the city, in general.
JoshCornell
gManTexas wrote::
There is one in the Boston Public Library and I think another one somewhere. I think if you search on here you can find the info.
its not the same the garibaldi candelbra is from italy the bpl one is from nyc
BINGO
I admit, I know very little about the details in Montreal. But, I visited there this summer for a few days to visit friends. While there, I treated the legeater (post demolition) as an area indicator much like the bowman in Chicago. The short time I was there was spent looking for something else in that general area that matches the image. Obviously, I didn’t find squat, nor did I really expect to.
My point is, someone with more time and who is more familiar with the area may be able to find what Fenix is looking for. If Montreal has the equivalent of Chicago’s fence and fixture, my bet is that it isn’t (or wasn’t) too far away from the legeater.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
My question has always been, how do we arrive at the legeater? Nobody has been able to get there without stretching the verse. So what is left in the image that we may be missing? The line at the top right of the hat....maybe some additional detail in the flower. What are we missing in this image? Or does this work slightly different than Chicago and Cleveland?
So let's pretend we are looking at the book with fresh eyes, and have some knowledge of Montreal, like the kids from Chicago did for Image 5.
What do we see? Some outlines that look like features in Montreal. Maybe we even catch the coordinates to confirm. Now what? There are a ton of gold squares and a weird looking dog with a leg in it's mouth in a gold square. Other than how strange the monk looks, that is the focus of the image. Being aware of Montreal, we can easily jump to the conclusion that it has something to do with Gold Square Mile. This narrows things down significantly.
At this point is where competing theories regarding approaching the puzzles comes into play. Some do not believe that there should be any historical research and that the image should reveal things we can see in and around the dig site. in other words, purely visual. Others, myself included, believe that the book, being a pseudo-historical tale, should make us look into historical references for answers.
There are some other techniques which I believe BP utilized in constructing the puzzles that no one is in agreement about. However, it leaves us to wonder if after 36 years and only two casques located, if the current accepted beliefs are correct on how these puzzles are constructed.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
My point here is I believe it doesn’t. What if you are told where to find it?
I'm not following, can you clarify please?
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Sorry, I completely missed your post Gman. I don’t believe this puzzle or more specifically the image works like Chicago.
You made some excellent points that I agree with. Let me get to my PC and I will show you how I believe it works.
Sounds good.
BINGO
Fenix wrote::
My point here is I believe it doesn’t have much more. What if you are told where to find it?
The legeater is certainly not the equivalent of the bowman, is it?
Why not? It is distinctive, and proven to be rare. If you have deciphered enough clues to get you to Montreal and you actually find the legeater, how could you be steered away from that area without another perfect image match? Or, if the verse starts to direct you quite literally.
The bowman kept the Chicago crew in the correct area even when they misinterpreted the verse. I hope you have a
new
angle to look at this solution. The seemingly simple approach isn’t working and neither is the deep literary diving approach.
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
BINGO
Fenix wrote::
My point here is I believe it doesn’t have much more. What if you are told where to find it?
The legeater is certainly not the equivalent of the bowman, is it?
Why not? It is distinctive, and proven to be rare. If you have deciphered enough clues to get you to Montreal and you actually find the legeater, how could you be steered away from that area without another perfect image match? Or, if the verse starts to direct you quite literally.
The bowman kept the Chicago crew in the correct area even when they misinterpreted the verse. I hope you have a new angle to look at this solution. The seemingly simple approach isn’t working and neither is the deep literary diving approach.
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
Spiritr
finally,
I believe you can share more, please carry on....
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
I completely agree with the references to the Golden Square Mile. Keep in mind there was the Golden Square Mile and the original Square Mile. Many people do not understand the difference between the Golden Square Mile(what you see on Google Maps) and the original Square Mile(much smaller). There are 9 streets that run N/S in the Square Mile. From West to East they are: Guy, Simpson, Redpath, Avenue du Musée(Ontario), Mountain, Drummond, Stanley, Peel, and McTavish. When you plug them into the 9 blocks at the base of the checkerboard, the finger is pointing to Drummond.
The hands are simply pointing to the location that you need to be at. Go find this thing on Drummond.
One could argue that this is the start and I may agree, except there is no imagery left in the painting that is detailed enough to be our dig spot confirmer. Ravel07 found the end game 10 years ago.
I like this a lot. Now, my thought is that the image will only get you so far, then we have to follow the verse, which I believe you can match up once you have some clues from the image.
The other part is that now that you are standing in front of MSC, there has to be more. I believe we have to dig into the significance of the location or people.
Spiritr
I wish the podcast can get a hold of Sean Kelly or Ted Mann...
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
I've been in contact with a few people who ran the club. It's hard to connect to people that were there in the 80's. The
new
hotel group is worthless from a knowledge perspective but I have a feeling they would be keen on the potential publicity.
I was referring in general, but specifically for MSC I think its George Stephen. This is where it gets involved and potentially dicey when we look into history.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
I've been in contact with a few people who ran the club. It's hard to connect to people that were there in the 80's. The new hotel group is worthless from a knowledge perspective but I have a feeling they would be keen on the potential publicity.
I was referring in general, but specifically for MSC I think its George Stephen. This is where it gets involved and potentially dicey when we look into history.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
Sean hasn't showed any interest from what I understand. He would have taken grad school classes directly across the street at the old YMCA and George WIlliams University though. You would have looked directly at those lamps every time you walked out of the building.
Great picture! I never did find an old photo of the Y.
Spiritr
sorry I know there's a third candelabra near the back of the building or something right? I've seen picture of it but I didn't save it...
anyone have it and don't mind post it again?
JoshCornell
that is partially correct fenix, but its not telling you location of treasure, its reinforcing the rune clues and bottom square, both of which point you to the gsh....its telling you to stop at gsh on your way along the path down, first the block bw peel and mctavish (to dorchester square and place du canada), and then down peel to the waterfront...you are essentially traversing ville marie- from the cemetaries to the islands- in the larger picture. where youre mistaken is that the sm and gsm are the same thing, golden was added to describe how it was the neighbourhood with all the stately houses of those involved in the golden age of the fur trade.
JoshCornell
"The Square Mile and also known as the Golden Square Mile (officially in French: Le Mille Carré and also known as Mille carré doré) is the nostalgic name given to an urban neighbourhood developed principally between 1850 and 1930 at the foot of Mount Royal, in the west-central section of downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada. The name "Square Mile" has been used to refer to the area since the 1930s; prior to that, the neighborhood was known as 'New Town' or 'Uptown'.[1] The addition of 'Golden' was coined by Montreal journalist Charlie Lazarus, and the name has [over time, become associated with] connections to contemporary real-estate developments, as the historical delimitations of the Golden Square Mile overlap with Montreal's contemporary central business district."
JoshCornell
i did. whereas part of what is traditionally the sm or gsm has now become part of the business district but this doesnt change what makes up the gsm, only that its nature has changed and another area has been perceptually laid over it. so, whereas there were homes that were demolished, they were replaced with contemporary buildings that now fall in the overlapping areas of the gsm and cbd.
JoshCornell
if yore referencing the "borders" section, that doesnt change it either...its just two ways always used to describe the same area using two different filters, one using geography (ie city planning) and one based on contents (the stately mansions themselves). i see where and why youre getting confused...preiss was focusing us to this latter "heart" of the golden square mile. please note both were called sm there...the golden didnt come in till later. the square mile and golden square mile are the SAME THING.
JoshCornell
not that that changes anything, youre still right about squares...just youre not using it within the context of the puzzle correctly.
JoshCornell
dude read EXACTLY what it says...dont add your own words in:
The neighbourhood had precise borders measuring roughly a square mile, covering the area between Boulevard René-Lévesque at the southern end; Pine Avenue at the foot of Mount Royal at the northern end; University Street at the eastern end, and Guy Street at the western end. In effect, however, the 'Square Mile' was contained within a far smaller area, between Sherbrooke Street and Pine Avenue, and Guy and University, covering scarcely nine streets on the north-south axis. From east to west: McTavish Street, Peel Street, Stanley Street, Drummond Street, Mountain Street, Ontario Avenue (now Avenue du Musée), Redpath Street, Simpson Street, and Guy Street; and three streets on the east-west axis, from south to north: Sherbrooke St. West, McGregor Street (now Doctor Penfield Avenue) and Pine Avenue.
JoshCornell
the inner square referenced is NOT the golden square mile...BOTH are the SQUARE MILE. GOLDEN was added later to BOTH. they are the same...one references the heart of the other. in essence it was a larger neighbourhood designated by city planning, in peoples vernacular it was the heart. both are the square mile both are the golden square mile. both are both.
JoshCornell
it doesnt though. the square mile neighbourhood refers to larger part while the square mile referred to the heart of that neighbourhood...both are called literally the exact same thing, where with or without the golden element...the square mile is the golden square mile in both instances lol. you seem to me to be saying one is the square mile while the other is the golden square mile...which is not the case. both terms apply to both, there is no difference between the two, which is what im saying. that doesnt change the way it was used. but your statement as you made it was not correct.
JoshCornell
one application of the term applied to the city planning (larger part)
one application of the EXACT SAME TERM applied to the EFFECTIVE "heart" of that neighbourhood, as that is where the stately mansions were hq'd. the golden element came into play because of the people who owned the stately mansions...but the whole puzzle is to follow their exploits...which takes us to the greater area where the banks and all that fun stuff is
its an example of the microcosm being the macrocosm.
JoshCornell
you cant remove words either man "effectively" changes the meaning of the sentence by changing its context.
JoshCornell
that being said i just went to court for my driving infraction and found a whole collection of expo 67 stuff including a time magazine issue dedicated to the architecture of the man of the world that preiss def had. at an atntiques shop lol.
gManTexas
Fenix wrote::
gman, you mentioned not finding pics of the old YMCA. Here are two more from 1980. The first also shows Drummond Court(now demolished) in the background, which was the building they cut a lane through for de maisonneuve blvd
Thanks!
bignate
Fenix wrote::
In my opinion, there are still a couple of items that do not have great explanations. The line along the top right of the hat and the left side of the hair, specifically.
All that said, I only have one question to anybody who does not believe that the legeater is the dig spot confirmation in the image. What else could be? I'm open to discussing if you can find a better option.
Glad to see the discussion revive here.
I think the top right of the hat is voie camillien-houde which defines the northwest border of Mount Royal. So by itself it doesn’t lend any more specifics. The leg eater definitely could be the dig spot indicator, as nothing else is so specific. But I am still doubtful that the dig would have happened in such a conspicuous privately owned spot. So what else could be the identifier? 2 suggestions: 1. The runes are not 74, and are out there on a plaque/rock/statue still to be discovered. 2. The stair step collar, which unfortunately has 4 or 5 reasonable locations in the area that ended up as an unintentionally poor locator.
Trohn
Something more obvious to explain, what are the hands representing?
BINGO
Get permission
To dig out.
If verse 5 is your choice for this image. Those two lines seem like a pretty reasonable instruction for digging up the manicured front entrance of the George Stephen House.
MrBackstop
Trohn wrote::
Something more obvious to explain, what are the hands representing?
Trohn, I see the fingers as representing the rib supports of Olympic Stadium. This is one of the many reasons my solve is in Olympic Park.
MrBackstop
BINGO wrote::
Get permission
To dig out.
If verse 5 is your choice for this image. Those two lines seem like a pretty reasonable instruction for digging up the manicured front entrance of the George Stephen House.
Agreed. You would definitely need to get permission for a manicured entrance like GSH or on the fine manicured lawn between the Esplanade, South side of Olympic Stadium, to the East of the White Stone wall with the Olympic rings.
spinner
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/a-real-life-da-vinci-code-treasure-hunters-think-a/article_06a300e5-de47-5ee3-92eb-2b7b96a1f5ba.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
JoshCornell
bignate wrote::
Glad to see the discussion revive here.
I think the top right of the hat is voie camillien-houde which defines the northwest border of Mount Royal. So by itself it doesn’t lend any more specifics. The leg eater definitely could be the dig spot indicator, as nothing else is so specific. But I am still doubtful that the dig would have happened in such a conspicuous privately owned spot. So what else could be the identifier? 2 suggestions: 1. The runes are not 74, and are out there on a plaque/rock/statue still to be discovered. 2. The stair step collar, which unfortunately has 4 or 5 reasonable locations in the area that ended up as an unintentionally poor locator.
oh oh..i know! btw...the runes p and 7 shaped rune are off peel and on the mctavish res...so theyve already been discovered...
atdreamer2112
spinner wrote::
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/a-real-life-da-vinci-code-treasure-hunters-think-a/article_06a300e5-de47-5ee3-92eb-2b7b96a1f5ba.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
Hey Spinner, thanks so much for sharing this article, and welcome back! I read a lot of your previous contributions. I'm curious if you currently believe Image 9 is St. Louis or Montreal? I have no personal preference, but when I started reading the "so close we can taste it" thread, I desperately wanted a home run for St. Louis!
beauseja9
JoshCornell wrote::
oh oh..i know! btw...the runes p and 7 shaped rune are off peel and on the mctavish res...so theyve already been discovered...
Josh, could you please detail on which exact building / site you can see these runes?
JoshCornell
the 7 is a backwards L. L represents Lake. so hes telling us it means "backwards lake". so you ask yourself, whats a backwards lake? and you look around and you find the mctavish reservoir on mcgill campus. then you notice that you cant see any water, but it has the 7 on it (shape of path). you see no water...because its an under ground reservoir. the p is over a block off peel, also in mcgill campus...its a street. the x is on the building drunknerds found.
xsdjr
Tried expressing my views that a casque is buried in St. Louis and all I got was negative responses so will keep my dig site close to the vest as it is NOT the verse used by the man in the news report and NOT in the location he suggests.... Doesn't seem to matter anyway as St. Louis has strict rules about no digging allowed so this casque may be lost forever....
beauseja9
@JoshCromwell Thanks for your response. It's imaginative, but I think it might be a little far-fetched. However, don't give up looking for solutions!
JoshCornell
already finished this one.
beauseja9
Has anyone got any further ideas relating to the theory of the index pointing at what would be Drummond Street if the 13 columns of squares on the man's shirt were the 13 N-S streets in the Golden Square Mile?
BINGO
beauseja9 wrote::
Has anyone got any further ideas relating to the theory of the index pointing at what would be Drummond Street if the 13 columns of squares on the man's shirt were the 13 N-S streets in the Golden Square Mile?
Check out the posts made by fenix on page 145 of this thread. That’s probably the best answer to your question.
JoshCornell
my original explanation is much better.
spinner
atdreamer2112 wrote::
Hey Spinner, thanks so much for sharing this article, and welcome back! I read a lot of your previous contributions. I'm curious if you currently believe Image 9 is St. Louis or Montreal? I have no personal preference, but when I started reading the "so close we can taste it" thread, I desperately wanted a home run for St. Louis!
That was so long ago it was before the Leg Eater Lamp was found. The only way that this Image is in St Louis is if we can find that lamp in St. Louis or a record of it. There are so many places where it could have been that are just gone or have been refurbished so it’s more of a passive search. If I find a picture of it having been st the Chase Park Plaza or the Checkerdome or something I’ll be sure to light the board up.
MrBackstop
Many who like the George Stephen House can't understand why I'm in Olympic Park for my solve. Here are a few visuals why I'm in Olympic Park.
The "J" "9" on the leftside of his forehead is on this map of the original site plan. The "J" is the shape of the Esplanade that goes into the stadium from the PIE X subway. And you can see the "9" actually on the map.
gManTexas
It's possibly that the symbols on the chest of the pious monk, are a P IX for the Pie-IX Boulevard and/or station (named after the Pope). When you punch in 222 Blvd Pie-IX this comes up, although numbers may have changed:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/222+B ... -IX,+Montr
éal,+QC,+Canada/@45.5479837,-73.534495,424m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cc91b87385d0b35:0xd4cd1f0ca4a0caa1!8m2!3d45.5477528!4d-73.5335485
Something to play around with on top of the Pie-IX thought.
bignate
Yeah, Pie IX came to mind before as well. Except in the order wouldn’t it be Pie XI? Which isn’t a street or metro stop. Just a garden-variety pope.
gManTexas
bignate wrote::
Yeah, Pie IX came to mind before as well. Except in the order wouldn’t it be Pie XI? Which isn’t a street or metro stop. Just a garden-variety pope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie-IX_Boulevard
Things in the Images are not straightforward.
MrBackstop
bignate wrote::
Yeah, Pie IX came to mind before as well. Except in the order wouldn’t it be Pie XI? Which isn’t a street or metro stop. Just a garden-variety pope.
Nate, I believe the PIE IX is a red herring in this Image.
The box or as I call it, the PX7 box is in reference to Nadia Comaneci in the '76 Olympics. She was the first athlete to ever score a Perfect 10 in the Olympics. She had a total of 7 Perfect 10s during the games. They were achieved on the Balance Beam and Uneven Bars. The design of the box in Image 9 has a bar at the top and bottom representing the Uneven Bars. The "X" is for the 10 and the thicker diagonal bar of the "X" represents the Balance Beam.
P - Perfect
X - 10
7 - Qty of Perfect 10s
I found that nobody agrees with how I deciphered this but that's okay. I keep trying to learn more about the Images everyday and out of nowhere new possibilities pop up from what I see or others see.
MrBackstop
Another example of a clue have several meanings. The flower is Olympic Stadium in Montreal and a clock. I like how the center of the flower has 10 circles (think October).
1967 - World Expo
1976 - Olympic Games
1977 - Montreal Expos started playing home games
The World Expo was not held at Olympic Park but had many of its venues destroyed and rebuilt for the 76 Olympics. One of my favorite clues of this flower is the negative space showing what would one day be the Tower for Olympic Stadium. The Olympics were known as the Big O to some but as the Big Owe to the locals as all kinds of problems came with trying to find funding for all the structures and other expenses.
Which brings me to something else I find interesting in this puzzle....all the "O's"
Opal is the stone
October is the month
Even the number 10 has an "0"
World ExpO
Olympic Games
Olympic Stadium is shaped like an Oval
Oval has an O
O Canada
O my God
and with Christmas around the corner...O Come all ye faithful
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
Nate, I believe the PIE IX is a red herring in this Image.
The box or as I call it, the PX7 box is in reference to Nadia Comaneci in the '76 Olympics. She was the first athlete to ever score a Perfect 10 in the Olympics. She had a total of 7 Perfect 10s during the games. They were achieved on the Balance Beam and Uneven Bars. The design of the box in Image 9 has a bar at the top and bottom representing the Uneven Bars. The "X" is for the 10 and the thicker diagonal bar of the "X" represents the Balance Beam.
P - Perfect
X - 10
7 - Qty of Perfect 10s
I found that nobody agrees with how I deciphered this but that's okay. I keep trying to learn more about the Images everyday and out of nowhere new possibilities pop up from what I see or others see.
I get the connection to the Olympics and that could play into this puzzle, but why would we emphasize Nadia Comaneci? With all of the possible clues, why a Romanian gymnast? (with all due respect to her and her accomplishments)
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
Nate, I believe the PIE IX is a red herring in this Image.
.
A red herring is an intentionally wrong trail in a treasure hunt. Calling something a red herring is literally the equivalent of saying "NO! YOU'RE WRONG" except adding an element of ridiculous misuse of rhetoric. You're much better than that, come on.
MrBackstop
gManTexas wrote::
I get the connection to the Olympics and that could play into this puzzle, but why would we emphasize Nadia Comaneci? With all of the possible clues, why a Romanian gymnast? (with all due respect to her and her accomplishments)
Gman I believe its part of the puzzle because of the importance of the moment. A perfect 10 had never been accomplished in the Olympics and had always been considered an unattainable goal.
Keep in mind, during the 70s we had 3 TV channels and radio to listen to for entertainment, not 100s like today. The point being, that the world was tuned into the Games with great interest unlike today. At times there were over a half billion people watching from across the globe. Nadia's perfect 10s are one of the most famous moments in sports and it helped the history of the games in Montreal standout.
MrBackstop
drunknerds wrote::
A red herring is an intentionally wrong trail in a treasure hunt. Calling something a red herring is literally the equivalent of saying "NO! YOU'RE WRONG" except adding an element of ridiculous misuse of rhetoric. You're much better than that, come on.
Hold on Drunknerds, you are saying my use of the term red herring offends you?
I've just thought of it as a playful or clever diversion to a clue or idea in a puzzle, nothing more, nothing less. I think you and I need to get togther for an ice cold IPA or two and you'll see I'm not what you might envision me to be.
beauseja9
I think Mr Backstop's effort is interesting but far-fetched. It makes sense in the abstract, but at any rate, many other possibilities could fit the image with such a high level of abstraction.
If we take the 2 puzzles that have already been solved as examples, we need to find elements in the city that, when compared to the image, fit it without any reasonable doubt. IMHO, the Olympic Stadium theory do not meet that threshold.
drunknerds
MrBackstop wrote::
Hold on Drunknerds, you are saying my use of the term red herring offends you?
I've just thought of it as a playful or clever diversion to a clue or idea in a puzzle, nothing more, nothing less. I think you and I need to get togther for an ice cold IPA or two and you'll see I'm not what you might envision me to be.
Yeah, I'm rereading my post now and I have no idea what I meant by that. Sorry!
MrBackstop
DN, no need to apologize. You and so many other veterans on this board have my total respect for all that you guys have discovered in these puzzles.
MrBackstop
My Dig spot for Montreal Olympic Park. I used many pieces of the Image as close-up locators. And to me, they fit very well with the Verse.
The Olympic Rings are on the White Stone wall to the right (image got partially cut off)
BINGO
@mr backstop
Just a general question about your Montreal solve. Does the legeater come into play with your interpretation of the verse at all? Does your solve include the legeater as part of a walking tour theory? Is the legeater a mere coincidence?
I admittedly know very little about this particular verse/image combination and Montreal in general, but the legeater match is a very powerful thing that I don’t think should be underestimated.
To me, any verse can be applied to any city or park if you really want it bad enough. Unless you have a bowman caliber match to keep you looking in the correct area, it is very difficult to know if we are chasing our own tails.
MrBackstop
BINGO
No, the leg-eater does not have a direct tie with the verse in my solve. I see it as being a part of the overall verse clue of "You'll see an arc of lights". This part of the verse to me is in reference to the City of Montreal at night. Quebec Route 138 runs throught the heart of Montreal and along many venues from the 76 Olympics. And to those who read my "O's" commernt earlier, QR138 also ties into other Olympic venues in Ottawa and Ontario.
The George Stephen House is a block South of QR138 and so is the Montreal Forum (PX7 box). Many of the running and cycling competitions went all over Montreal and in the Golden Square. The historic importance of the GSH to Montreal is undeniable. I mean George Stephen even used it as collateral when trying to continue the financing of the Canadian Pacific Railroad after some other financial partners dropped out. I see both of these locations (on the monk's collar) as waymarkers to Olympic Park.
MrBackstop
Someone asked about the half smile/half frown on the monk's face.
I'm sure many of you remember ABC's Wide World of Sports and the opening of the show each weekend with the ski jumper coming down the ramp. During this part you would hear the narrator say "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" as the ski jumper loses his balance and falls off the side of the ramp. This "saying" became synonymous with ABC as well as the Olympic Games and why I see that as the reason for the half smile /half frown on the monk's face.
Choice
So, did anyone probe the spot?
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
So, did anyone probe the spot?
I don't believe any of our Canadian members have done so or even like this area as a possibility. And unfortunately, that exact spot in my solve may no longer be possible to probe or reach. I just noticed this overhead view on google maps. They have rounded off the edge of the wall to make it flow better for the pedestrians.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5551092 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Choice
Looks the same to me. Maybe I'm not looking at the right spot. Your dig spot area is the same.
MrBackstop
If you drop down to this view you can see the corner wall where the narrow walkway meets the Esplanade. The twelve "paces" (steps) are just to your left and the "white stone" is across the lawn with the Olympic Rings.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5551113 ... 312!8i6656
You'll notice on the overhead view in the previous post that you can see a fence around this corner section and that it is being renovated in some way. The ground view hasn't been updated to show the construction area so I don't have a clue as to what is actually being done to my dig spot.
Choice
Is Dambala on wiki our Josh?
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Is Dambala on wiki our Josh?
No.
But, considering his undying modesty and never ending sense of humility, I can see why you'd ask that...
MERLIN
Mister EZ wrote::
No.
But, considering his undying modesty and never ending sense of humility, I can see why you'd ask that...
https://media.makeameme.org/created/oh- ... xb6mrg.jpg
Choice
Hey Merlin, you remind me of the Bumblebee autobot in transformers that speaks in radio/movie audio clips!
MrBackstop
beauseja9 wrote::
I think Mr Backstop's effort is interesting but far-fetched. It makes sense in the abstract, but at any rate, many other possibilities could fit the image with such a high level of abstraction.
If we take the 2 puzzles that have already been solved as examples, we need to find elements in the city that, when compared to the image, fit it without any reasonable doubt. IMHO, the Olympic Stadium theory do not meet that threshold.
Just came across this response. My question to you would be what is so far-fetched? If you don't agree with my graphic that the monk's nose looks like a combo of the stadium parts....well...okay. A lot of people think it doesn't. If you don't like my idea of the negative space in the flower representing the unfinished Olympic Stadium tower at the time....well, alrighty then.
I've seen lots of peoples solves for parts of this and like those solves a lot. I just took a different route and deciphered what I saw and then gave a breakdown of the verse and the visual of my dig spot. I'm curious as to why the 1976 Olympics seems far-fetched.
I'm curious what you might think these clues mean. I'm always interested in hearing others' ideas so I can continue to put together other pieces or get myself completely away from my solve. I do this on all the Images/Verses.
atdreamer2112
Choice wrote::
Is Dambala on wiki our Josh?
No, Dambala is Jason Berry, he used to post on here as Dambala and you can find him if you look back over the Image 7 threads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IfYTZxtbeI
I assume the "our Josh" you're referring to is just Josh Cornell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVHscEurAP0&t=88s
Hope that helps clear up the confusion!
Choice
Thanks dreamer, So what happened to Dambala here? I can't find his posts.
atdreamer2112
Choice wrote::
Thanks dreamer, So what happened to Dambala here? I can't find his posts.
Dambala wrote::
I am not Josh. I just checked out because I wasn't feeling the vibe...a little too much hostility.
I have been real busy for the past two weeks with work but I've been communicating with two other guys who are looking for it. We fully believe it is in Armstrong...in fact in our opinion it's not a matter of it being in Armstrong it's a matter of where according the minute clues in the image. I think I know exactly where it is and I have been prodding the area but I had to put it on hold for work. I'm hoping to pick the hunt back up soon. I originally dismissed the exact location because I didn't think the landmarks predated the 1981/82 mark but one of the guys I'm working with had images of the park that verified the landmarks were in fact there in 1980.
Accompanied by a very subtle clue in the clock face I had missed and was alerted to by someone else...I know (I personally believe) I'm in the right spot regarding the marker I just haven't hit it yet with the prod.
You can catch up on some of the history by looking at Dambala's posts:
search.php?author_id=38809&sr=posts
He posted a video of the first version of his "solve"
https://vimeo.com/252819835
then he made a video about using Photoshop and finding hundreds of hidden wolves in the image
https://vimeo.com/258906809
and people started to make fun him and his wolves. At some point I remember there was a third video where he went deeper down the rabbit hole and was pointing out "hidden vectors" and making big claims. When the folks here weren't exactly supportive of his ideas, he pulled a "screw you guys, I'm going home!" and stopped posting here.
It's funny, you weren't even the first person to think Dambala and Josh were the same person, see below Dambala's response to Fox from back in Feb on pg. 115 of the Image 7 thread:
Choice
That's too bad. He had some good ideas. It's easy to get into pissing contest trap here. BTDT. As Goldengate mentored me before, "get thicker skin or get the F out!"
atdreamer2112
Choice wrote::
That's too bad. He had some good ideas. It's easy to get into pissing contest trap here. BTDT. As Goldengate mentored me before, "get thicker skin or get the F out!"
burnstyle wrote::
I started this puzzle, like many of you did, alone in my hunt. Slowly I started making friends which eventually lead into the podcast, and the facebook pages you all enjoy so much. The podcast completely changed the way I view this hunt. Sitting around for hours, listening to people like Jo-Ellen and Ben reminisce about Byron made me realize that this book didn't start out, like many of us thought, as a cash grab...
From people who restructure their family vaction just to hang out for a bit, to people who blow up and call us assholes on facebook... and yes... even Josh Cornell, you have all become a part of the wonderfuly large disfunctional Secret family.
I'm not a member of the Wiki, and I haven't looked over there in months, so it was interesting when you brought up Dambala's recent postings. The last time I was on the Wiki, he was having a pissing contest with those members and then announced he was starting his own blog/forum/cite where he would continue his quest; he posted a link, then checked out. I can't find the original post to cite my source (I think the Wiki dumps content regularly to make space), maybe I just don't know how that forum works. Dambala, aka Jason Berry, is some sort of rogue warrior in this hunt and believe me, I hope more than anything else he finds himself a treasure and he boasts about it loud and proud somewhere so we can all celebrate alongside him.
Josh Cornell is definitely a loony-tune, but for whatever brief time he occupied this forum, he was and always will be "our Josh." I'm truly sad he burned his bridges and got himself the forever boot. Even the Great and Powerful burnstyle (of the podcast fame) recognized Josh Cornell as "family" once upon a time:
Retrieved from: Ok, let's talk about this casque. pg. 1. July 31, 2018.
burnstyle
I am neither great nor powerful.
I may however be a tiny frail man behind a curtain.
Josh is an odd dude, I've hung out with him twice now... both times I think he wanted to fight me because I told him he was wrong. Once he punched a desk.
Hes a good example of what's wrong with the hunt... since EU came out anyway... people who wont listen to reason because they obviously are smarter than everyone else.
Hes family in the same way a racist drunk uncle is family. It's a good ide to keep him around so you can point at him on Thanksgiving and tell your kids "dont be like him when you grow up"
atdreamer2112
burnstyle wrote::
I am neither great nor powerful.
I may however be a tiny frail man behind a curtain.
Josh is an odd dude, I've hung out with him twice now... both times I think he wanted to fight me because I told him he was wrong. Once he punched a desk.
Hes a good example of what's wrong with the hunt... since EU came out anyway... people who wont listen to reason because they obviously are smarter than everyone else.
Hes family in the same way a racist drunk uncle is family. It's a good ide to keep him around so you can point at him on Thanksgiving and tell your kids "dont be like him when you grow up"
Oh man, that's actually super scary, and creepy, and awful. In a really bad way! Thanks for clearing that up, I won't feel the slightest bit sorry for him getting a boot-in-the-ass off this forum anymore, ever again!
And as for you, Mr. G. burnstyle, a "tiny frail man behind a curtain" is as good as any Great and Powerful Santa Claws as far as I'm concerned! LOL! I'm trying to stay on the Good side of the Christmas List. My name's Sarah for the official record.
Choice
Whenever someone says you're family, just ask them if you're in their will!
I kinda like Krampus better. Character builder!
dp12345
Here is the solution for image 9, verse 7.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYdcj7
... sp=sharing
dp12345
Sorry about the prior broken link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYdcj7 ... sp=sharing
BINGO
dp12345 wrote::
Sorry about the prior broken link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYdcj7 ... sp=sharing
Do you have an explanation for these photos? Pretty convincing just to be coincidence...
https://imgur.com/gallery/FnRb2Bo
dp12345
Honestly, I think Byron used this as a clue to identify the location. The George Stephen House was built with extremely similar visual detail to the Old Courthouse in St. Louis, from the steps to the pillars. It was also constructed during a similar time frame in the 1800's. As you can see, the "leg eater" is not exact. I think it was included for readers to start in the former "Jefferson Expansion National Park" and further direct them to a building of similar visual detail and to focus on the steps. I'm not sure why there are two different versions of the image - one reflecting a fleur-de-lis, and one reflecting a black image. However, the "black blob" certainly looks like the "ah ha" location marker, much like the images in Cleveland and Chicago. I'm not saying my theory is right, but it was fun to think about for a few days.
MERLIN
There is something that has always been in the back of my mind about this image. The New Orleans Saints football team....the team colors are black and gold - and the team symbol is the fleur de lis - just look at one of the helmets. If it weren't for the legeater find, I would think these clues were directing the viewer towards New Orleans. Always wondered if that is why the fleur was altered?
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
There is something that has always been in the back of my mind about this image. The New Orleans Saints football team....the team colors are black and gold - and the team symbol is the fleur de lis - just look at one of the helmets. If it weren't for the legeater find, I would think these clues were directing the viewer towards New Orleans. Always wondered if that is why the fleur was altered?
moi aussi
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=new+orleans&start=2014
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
moi aussi
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=new+orleans&start=2014
you sneaky devil >:D ! When did you slip that in there LOL
dp12345
BINGO wrote::
Do you have an explanation for these photos? Pretty convincing just to be coincidence...
https://imgur.com/gallery/FnRb2Bo
After reviewing a lot of the content in these threads, yesterday I stopped by the Gateway Arch National Park and walked around the Arch grounds as well as the Old Courthouse and obviously no sign of a "leg eater". However, something has been bothering me about that image for some time now. Why did he change the face to look more like a fox/dog and why does part of the horse leg extend outside the box? It seems that in all cases, Preiss obscured his true intent with other more obvious images (e.g. In the Chicago find, the windmill had a similar architecture to the watertower and the image of the fairy was actually similar to the sculpture in the park). Additionally, he used street coordinates to help identify an exact location (e.g. "and to Congress R is known"). I'm not convinced that the "leg eater" is intended to represent an actual "leg eater". It is an extremely obscure Italian design. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure JJP and/or Preiss had visited Montreal or Italy to see this type of Italian Renaissance detail and likely used it to further challenge readers to solve the puzzle. As I walked across the street yesterday, I noticed that the Old Courthouse is located at the corner of Chestnut and Broadway. It just so happens that one of the most famous landmarks in St. Louis is The Fabulous Fox theater which opened in 1929 and is known for being 'The best of broadway'. Not so coincidentally the only piece of the horse leg inside the box is the hock which appears to have a mark on it. It may look like a crease, but look closely, it doesn't extend to the rear of the hock. These marks are referred to as "chestnuts". The remainder of the leg extending outside the box is to show the reader that the leg is that of a horse, and it helps to form the bootheel of Missouri in the black negative space. However, the clues are INSIDE the boxes. I think he was trying to put readers where Broadway meets Chestnut, which is the location of The Old Courthouse. I know this sounds like a stretch, but it seemed that he loved to use hidden coordinates, and this certainly would explain why the boxes exist. Also, it goes without saying that the fleur-de-lis is the official symbol of St. Louis, as it is even present on the city's flag. Again, just another theory, but pretty plausible.
BINGO
When is the St. Louis(d) podcast?
Seriously, it was a good listen. Fenix was a valuable member here not too long ago. It’s a shame to see guys like that leave.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
It's funny, I have zero skin in the game on this image or verse, but after listening to the information, I'd have a hard time seeing it in St. Louis.
Totally agree about Fenix -- wish he was still around. He brought an immense amount of smart research and boots on the ground knowledge to this treasure hunt -- but glad he's still at it. I hope he'll be the one to dig up this casque!
I have a hard time believing the St. Louis theory based on The Passage to the New World in the book and all of the clues in the Image and Verse.
Choice
After listening to the podcast I do agree that there's a similarity to image 1 concerning the pointing fingers to the blocks or squares.
Looking at the hands and fingers, the 1st thing that pops to my mind is the shape similar to The Sydney Opera House that was opened a few years earlier in Australia.
Is there an opera house or music hall in the interest zone?
Choice
Looks like his nose.
https://tinyurl.com/ydevg4tg
burnstyle
Well shit... I'm convinced.
Let's go to St. Louis!
Choice
Having a brain stroke BS?
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Having a brain stroke BS?
dp12345 wrote::
Sorry about the prior broken link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYdcj7 ... sp=sharing
You didn't see this?
Choice
Now it makes sense. In comparison makes my opera house look good!
Guardian
Sorry if I’ve asked this before, but does the candelabra at the George Stephen House have a name?
Choice
Guardian wrote::
Sorry if I’ve asked this before, but does the candelabra at the George Stephen House have a name?
I don't know if it has a name but it may be based on Piranesi's drawings. He has many chairs, tables and of course candelabrum designs similar to that.
Google Piranesi candelabrum
Mister EZ
Guardian wrote::
Sorry if I’ve asked this before, but does the candelabra at the George Stephen House have a name?
lol....calling it the 'legeater' used to cause JC to have a conniption fit:
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/search.php?keywords=Garibaldi+candelabra
rexx
Choice wrote::
I don't know if it has a name but it may be based on Piranesi's drawings. He has many chairs, tables and of course candelabrum designs similar to that.
Google Piranesi candelabrum
J
In the podcast the Creator's name was Fisk.
drunknerds
I have a theory about why the fleur was blobbed.
A lot of my friends drew art for this book deal I've recently finished. Burnstyle and Malted Falcon did some great drawings. I can't image ever taking a pen and just scribbling out any part of it, it's art.
Why did I mention this? I wanted to get in a free plug. But the one thing that would make me grab a pen and mark up these beautiful pictures is if the legal team insisted. I wonder if Bantam's legal department said, "dude there's a legeater right next to a fleur-de-lis at the Mount Stephen Club. People are going to dig up the front lawn of that historic building, and there are some super rich guys in there who will sue our pants off. Take out an image. Not wanting to obscure the legeater, Preiss crossed out the fleur. Perhaps he also added "get permission to dig out" tacked onto the end of the verse on the insistence of legal.
What does this mean? It's not in the MSC. I suspect that it's like New Orleans, where there are images in the park that can be seen from Gallier hall. Maybe it was buried in a planter/grass that one can see the legeater from.
maltedfalcon
That logic would also explain why the castillo was covered in the Fl image
i.e lets not get blamed for people digging up a national park....
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
That logic would also explain why the castillo was covered in the Fl image
i.e lets not get blamed for people digging up a national park....
Not sure I agree. Once you figure out MSC and the Castillo, then the natural reaction would be to dig.
I think it was to make the clues more difficult, especially in the case of the Castillo.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Not sure I agree. Once you figure out MSC and the Castillo, then the natural reaction would be to dig.
I don't understand why that's a disagreement. Once you figure out it's the castillo, you're going to dig. So they covered up the image of the Castillo.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
I don't understand why that's a disagreement. Once you figure out it's the castillo, you're going to dig. So they covered up the image of the Castillo.
If he was really worried, he would have changed the clues. Like I said, the disagreement part is with why the objects were obscured. I think to make the puzzles harder.
BINGO
JFC...
The whole point of this is to decipher the paintings and verse clues. Then find the location where the casque was buried. The reason why the blobs, purple dots, etc. were put there is nearly irrelevant. The fleur de lis cover up is without question. The Castillo cover up isn’t as evident, but very likely.
Does it really matter if it was to make the puzzles harder (which I personally disagree with) or to protect the publisher from future liabilities? The clues are there for us to use. These arguments are subjective and unproductive.
I think that the lead has been buried with Drunknerd’s original post. Why not use the fleur de lis in conjunction with the legeater and find a reasonable and more definitive spot that the casque may have been buried.
Just because a rock solid image match has been located in no way means you are ready to start digging. Ask Rob Wrobel how his original digs directly in front of the Chicago fence posts went.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
JFC...
The whole point of this is to decipher the paintings and verse clues. Then find the location where the casque was buried. The reason why the blobs, purple dots, etc. were put there is nearly irrelevant. The fleur de lis cover up is without question. The Castillo cover up isn’t as evident, but very likely.
Does it really matter if it was to make the puzzles harder (which I personally disagree with) or to protect the publisher from future liabilities? The clues are there for us to use. These arguments are subjective and unproductive.
I think that the lead has been buried with Drunknerd’s original post. Why not use the fleur de lis in conjunction with the legeater and find a reasonable and more definitive spot that the casque may have been buried.
Just because a rock solid image match has been located in no way means you are ready to start digging. Ask Rob Wrobel how his original digs directly in front of the Chicago fence posts went.
I don't know man, we gotta talk about something in between figuring these crazy puzzle out.
drunknerds
This conversation is fun! I see Bingo's point, but I agree with gman that we're having an interesting debate. I even think it might lead somewhere. Heck, it's the first and only new visual clue we've ever received, let's pick it apart.
The thing is, if he wanted to make the puzzles harder, Preiss could've changed the verse. If legal said the drawings my friends made needed to be scribbled over, my first response would always be "uhhh, that's art... can I just change my text?"
Harley Quinn
The fleur-de-lis may not have been removed because of legal matters but BP may have requested it to be removed. The casque may not been buried there and he didn't want two visual clues for one spot.
On the St Augustine image that circle thing (whatever you want to call it) I do not believe it is Castillo de San Marcos. Looks nothing like it. The fort is square not a circle. There are statue bases with a square base with a circle within it. That is my guess.
burnstyle
Harley Quinn wrote::
On the St Augustine image that circle thing (whatever you want to call it) I do not believe it is Castillo de San Marcos. Looks nothing like it. The fort is square not a circle. There are statue bases with a square base with a circle within it. That is my guess.
I think you are misunderstanding.
The circle thing is covering the castillo.
Harley Quinn
burnstyle wrote::
I think you are misunderstanding.
The circle thing is covering the castillo.
Do we know for sure that it was a cover up? Have not seen where it was fact, just speculation
bignate
Harley Quinn wrote::
The fleur-de-lis may not have been removed because of legal matters but BP may have requested it to be removed. The casque may not been buried there and he didn't want two visual clues for one spot.
Now that is an interesting point. I had always thought that the fdl was blotted out because it too obviously pointed to either Quebec or New Orleans. But there is a good argument that BP didn’t bury at the club and realized that 2 visuals for a dead end was a bad idea.
maltedfalcon
circular reasoning... if the legeater and the fleurdelis did not = the club,
how would bp be aware that it indicated the club too much?
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
circular reasoning... if the legeater and the fleurdelis did not = the club,
how would bp be aware that it indicated the club too much?
After the fact. Between the inception and copy proofing (1.5 years or so), someone finds the MSC. It's reasonable, but unlikely.
GoldenMartyr
bignate wrote::
But there is a good argument that BP didn’t bury at the club and realized that 2 visuals for a dead end was a bad idea.
Even one perfect visual for a dead end is a bad idea if the image contains no other visuals.
I would have loved to witness the lawsuit though.
MSC -Your book caused somebody to dig a hole on our lawn.
Bantam - Our apologies, could we pay for the landscaping?
MSC - The hole has already been filled in.
Bantam - Understood. Is there something else we could do to right the situation?
MSC - This has caused us great pain and suffering and we will require compensation in the form of $1,000,000.(cue maniacal laughter)
burnstyle
Corrected:
MSC -Your book caused somebody to dig a hole on our lawn.
Bantam - Our book advised them to seek permission.
GoldenMartyr
burnstyle wrote::
Bantam - Our book advised them to seek permission.
Choice
This thread had no action for months. Wake up Canada!
So I was flipping through pages of the book and came across a prison and window bars and a lawyer and his briefcase on page 127.
The lawyer is pointing to the initials on the case. The biggest letter is C. (handle) so I figured it must be his last name. Then G. and E.
I think these may be initials for George-Étienne Cartier. He looks Canadian