Verse 10: In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Toward the isle of B.

"In the shadow Of the grey giant" "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path" Probably a tree or rock outcropping, and not a statue. ".. the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native" A park history sign, perhaps?  Might that be the East Indies or West Indies?  A native of a foreign land, who became famous enough for the locals to erect a sign. "The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." There is a play on words there, i can feel it.  Can I ask if this capitalization is in the book?

Yes Cat...that is how the line is capitalized.  A play on words you think?  Either that, or the person referred to sure pissed off the natives.

A friend of mine suggests North Dakota for this verse. The lines "The natives still speak / Of him of Hard word," as well as the "grey giant," could refer to a statue of an Indian chief carved in a mountain. --Johann

I am thinking that this verse may refer to New York City.  The "gray giant" could be the Statue of Liberty (Image 12) or just a tall building. "Or gaze north Toward the isle of B." Liberty Island used to be known as Bedloe's Island. "In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound" There are ferries in New York which make a whirring sound. Cars abound there of course. "Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil" George Gershwin (Rhapsody in Blue) grew up on the lower east side of NYC. "Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native" Indians (aka Native Americans) used to live in NYC, so there must be signs around.  Battery Park is at the tip of NYC, and you can see the Statue of Liberty from there.  The National Museum of the American Indian is located at the tip of Battery Park. "The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." I agree with Catherwood on this --- definitely cryptic.  Why abbreviate the word "volumes"? Just some things to stir the pot.

Liberty Island is south of Manhatten and the statue of liberty is pretty much green Ferry's run all year round. perhaps the whirring sound is Cicadas I sure liked your george gershwin pull though... Matt

Unknown: A friend of mine suggests North Dakota for this verse. The lines "The natives still speak / Of him of Hard word," as well as the "grey giant," could refer to a statue of an Indian chief carved in a mountain. --Johann What comes to mind is the statue of Crazy Horse, which (when finished) will be the largest sculpture ever made.  It will have an outstretched arm, but Heaven only knows what it looked like when the book was written

Unknown: "The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." There is a play on words there, i can feel it.  Can I ask if this capitalization is in the book? This darn quote keeps haunting me.  The way it is worded seems to "make" us think of a large book - 3 volumes, but what if it means something completely different? vol - definitions: 5 entries found for vol. vol. abbr. volcano. volume. volunteer. [Download or Buy Now] Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. vol·ca·no    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (vl-kn) n. pl. vol·ca·noes or vol·ca·nos An opening in the earth's crust through which molten lava, ash, and gases are ejected. A similar opening on the surface of another planet. A mountain formed by the materials ejected from a volcano. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Italian, from Spanish volcán, or Portuguese volcão both probably from Latin volcnus, vulcnus, fire, flames, from Volcnus, Vulcan.] [Download or Buy Now] Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. vol·un·teer    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (vln-tîr) n. A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily: an information booth staffed by volunteers; hospital volunteers. Law. A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily. A person who holds property under a deed made without consideration. Botany. A cultivated plant growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed. adj. Being, consisting of, or done by volunteers: volunteer firefighters; volunteer tutoring. Botany. Growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed. Used of a cultivated plant or crop. v. vol·un·teered, vol·un·teer·ing, vol·un·teers v. tr. To give or offer to give voluntarily: volunteered their services; volunteer to give blood. v. intr. To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will. To do charitable or helpful work without pay: Many retirees volunteer in community service and day care centers. -------------------------------------------------------- 3 volumes, 3 volcanos, 3 volunteers.....

I was just thinking there might be some play on the words in verse 10.. My thoughts are what if the isle of B is really the aisle of B.. In which case the Mall in Central Park could fit that description. Along the Mall from the South to the North is Burns - Bandshell - Beethoven - and Bethesda Terrace. I would say that would fit the Aisle of B. Also what if the word root is really route. A simple Route could be a small street or path..That would put a different spin on it altogether. Just food for thought.

Arrgh FRSTPRZFA, not more plays on words.  first cat finds the Vols and now this? And I thought I was getting somewhere with this book,lol. great idea on isle/aisle & roots/routes.  Back to the drawing board.

also, while wracking my brain thinking back to the dark ages when I took geomotry...when you are finding the Volume of something, the measurements are cubed or times 3.  Could this be another measurement or could we be looking for a cube?  who knows, just thought I would add yet another twist to this V.

What if the gray giant is Manhattan and the arm that extends is a bridge over a slender path. We also need to keep in mind that NYC includes Manhattan - Brooklyn - Bonx - Staten Island - and Queens. I do believe that Staten Island lies south of Brooklyn and Manhattan lies south of the Bronx. So if either the Bronx or Brooklyn were to be considered the Isle of B then that means we need to study Manhattan and Staten Island. If I had to choose either one to be considered the gray giant it would be Manhattan..  And don't for get that Brooklyn is also called Kings County...Just kicking stuff up hoping to create a spark.

Well, thinking of Native Indians and Manhattan, and Hard Words,  the name Peter Minuit comes to mind. He was the man who bought Manhattan Island from the Native Indians with $24 dollars worth of beads.. There sure seems to be a lot of beads in the picture.. There is a granite stone in Battery Park in honor of him. And If the Lady in the picture is representing Manhattan, the Jewel seem to be at her feet. Battery Park is in the Foot (or lower part) of Manhattan.. And was also in the shadow of the Gray Giant if one of the Twin Towers was one of the Gray Giants..I am just speculating at this time, I do not even have the book yet so please bear with me. One more Question, I do not have all the verses yet, is everyone sure that Verse 10 goes with NY?

Vol is also what they call the University of Tennessee football team...the 'VOLS" its also the nickname for Tennessee...hmmm...possible connection there...got my book and my group is working on this along with the whistle pig...Good luck everyone!

well sure is one thing, but until we actually use a verse to find a casque for instance, in the northwest corner of Golden Gate Park there stands a large grey windmill its arms extend over many slender paths I believe in the summer they actually used to let the windmill spin which might make a whirring noise. lots of cars there at the intersection of Fulton and Great Highway lots of possibilities for natives of Indies I just never could find an Isle of B if someone can think of an Isle of B this one could also then fit SF

oh the other thing that this one also makes me think of When I think of Summer and whirring sound I think Cicadas Although I live  in CA now I lived on the east coast during the last 2 17 year cicada cycles and you people living there now have my sympathies. but even though the cicada cycle is peaking now in the summer there are usually always some cicadas out... That would make this an east coast verse (if the whirring sound is cicadas)

I am really new to this book but my thoughts are leading me to believe that the branch they are talking about is really a bridge, and the whirring sound might be the sounds of one of the Heliports in NYC. Like I said really new to the book, but not new to NYC. They do say in the book that in the summer you might hear a whirring sound, but they also do not say that you might hear the same sound in the winter.. Nor do they say that you will not hear the sound in the winter..We need to stay open minded on this. It's like the old question, Which weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of lead? We all know that a pound of lead weighs more..  ;)

I know the 59th street bridge had a park under it. We used to play stick ball there when I was a kid. There is also a heliport nearby but the Rhapsodic man's soil is the thing that is throwing me the most. Looks like I will have to investigate a little more.

Seems to me that we have no NYer's Here... Or am I so out of the ball park that you guys are too embarassed to answer.

MaltedFalcon, I agree on the Cicadas theory, and this is supposed to be the big year, But so far not a one has been seen.. Seems quite strange to me. Denise

Unknown: Re: verse 10 « Reply #14 on: May 26th, 2004, 11:01am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- well sure is one thing, but until we actually use a verse to find a casque for instance, in the northwest corner of Golden Gate Park there stands a large grey windmill its arms extend over many slender paths I believe in the summer they actually used to let the windmill spin which might make a whirring noise. lots of cars there at the intersection of Fulton and Great Highway lots of possibilities for natives of Indies I just never could find an Isle of B if someone can think of an Isle of B this one could also then fit SF I like the way you think MaltedFalcon, I was in San Francisco and did drive by the park briefly, I really did not have time to stop and look but perhaps when I return next week I will have time to take a better look. I will let you know if I spot anything. Denise

I like the Pittsburgh idea for this verse, but my only thought for the Hard word in 3 vols. is that John Lennon wrote three songs for three different albums with the word Hard in them:  Hard Day's Night, It’s So Hard and Hard Times Are Over. If this is the clue, it would seem to point to NY, given Lennon's devoted following there.

Unknown: I like the Pittsburgh idea for this verse, but my only thought for the Hard word in 3 vols. is that John Lennon wrote three songs for three different albums with the word Hard in them:  Hard Day's Night, It’s So Hard and Hard Times Are Over. If this is the clue, it would seem to point to NY, given Lennon's devoted following there. And Lennon, who died in 1980, lived in a famous NY apartment building called the Dakota -- named, it seemed, for "Indies Natives" (i.e. the Dakota tribe).  Hmm.

Oh no, not John Lennon..  That would lead us to this memorial: hxxp://homepages.borland.com/davidi/ima ... e.jpgwhich in turns leads us right back into the center of Central Park.  :-/

Ahh Yess Foxx, How right you are... Not exactly the center more like the South west corner, but in the park just the same.. So, Now I guess we are back to start. No wonder I chase myself in circles..LOL Denise

Just some thoughts here. I don't have good pictures so I'll throw this out. In the shadow - hour? Of the grey giant- The Gateway Arch?- Martin Luther King Bridge? Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound- Johann, do you have time to go to the river on a windy day?- Fair St. Louis (which was the V.P. Fair) and airshow held over the 4th?- Boats etc.?- Wind blowing through the Arch or bridge? OR Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer- shadow that falls over one of the Arch footpaths in the summer at the right hour?- A viaduct to the bridge? You'll often hear a whirring sound- Cicadas?- Is there a helipad at the Arch? Cars abound- everywhere! Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native- Jacques Phillippe Clamorgan was born about 1730 in the West Indies- (one of the founders of St. Louis)- Clamorgan Alley is named after him and is by the Arch The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.-Martin Luther King Street and bridge by the Arch. (one map I have shows Clamorgan and MLK intersecting and the other doesn't?) Take twice as many east steps as the hour- M.L.K. Street/Bridge and Clamorgan Alley are at Laclede's Landing- again, what is the hour?- Do they intersect? Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v- viaduct?- Posted by Johann: It seems that PRESERVATION is deliberately drawn so that the hour hand splits the V. Count the number of block letters to each side of the hour hand, the I taking up less space, of course. (verse 10 ref. to "v") Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil- Laclede's Landing has lots of music?- Concerts in the park area? Or gaze north Toward the isle of B.- Is Biddle St. treelined?- Aisle of Biddle? DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING was born Jan. 15, 1929 DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING DRIVE (E-W). Named in 1972 to honor the assassinated civil rights leader who won a Nobel Prize in 1968 for his work for black equality. First named North "I" Street in 1821, it was designated Cherry Street in 1826. It was later changed to Franklin Avenue as a tribute to the Revolutionary War publisher, philosopher and diplomat. (Downtown) (Midtown) (Old North St. Louis-Yeatman) CLAMORGAN ALLEY (N-S). Named for Jacques Clamorgan (?-1814), early St. Louis businessman and fur trader. (Laclede's Landing) Can anyone connect MLK to 3 Vols.?

xlurker--  Thanks much and much!  I have spent a lot of time at the Arch, nearby bridge, Laclede's Landing, etc., but I have not looked at it in all the ways that you have.  Some things I have noticed, but some things I missed because I was not exploring in the context of this verse.  (such as the "rhapsodic man," who could be Scott Joplin)  I will explore the area again in light of all of these details and then post a report.  --johann

xlurker--  I explored the Arch/Laclede's Landing area today and here is a report according to your ideas: "In the shadow / Of the grey giant / Find the arm that / Extends over the slender path / In summer / You'll often hear a whirring sound" "In the shadow" may not be literal and may mean 'near the Arch' because it does dominate the area.  The Arch Park paths are all wide and very tree-covered.  It was a cloudy day, but it doesn't look like the Arch's shadow would extend over any path between the hours of 11 and 2 (considering the possibilities of pics/hours for this verse).  There is no perceivable source for a whirring sound; I did see an impressive airshow by what looked to be an old prop plane, but that was a one-time show on July 2.  Just for the heck of it, I counted the steps leading up to the Arch and there are 64.  I don't know if that helps at all. "Cars abound": Of course, cars are everywhere as you note.  There is the 64/40 and 44 bridge, the Eads bridge (cars and Metro rail), MLK bridge, RR tracks, and cars along the streets (even on the brick streets of Laclede's Landing). "Although the sign / Nearby / Speaks of Indies native / The natives still speak / Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.": Clamorgan Alley intersects with (from S to N) Washington, Morgan and Lucas.  So, there is a parking lot between Cl. and Laclede's Landing Blvd, which come before MLK Dr.  At the intersections of all streets there are engraved iron labels on the sidewalk, so there are Clamorgan Alley plates at Morgan and Lucas. "Take twice as many east steps as the hour / Or more / From the middle of one branch / Of the v": There is a small grassy area beneath MLK bridge, between Laclede's Landing Blvd and MLK Dr., and alongside Leonor K. Sullivan Blvd on the E side (Sullivan runs along the river).  However, I found a plaque indicating that "Rohrer Park" was dedicated 1987.  There is a sculpture of a boat hull on a mound, made in 1977.  So, it is hard to know what was where and when.  Also, there are no stairs/steps here, and the park is not within even 24 steps of anything. "Look down / and see simple roots / In rhapsodic man's soil": There is much music on Laclede's Landing, but it would be coming from numerous bars and clubs, as music commonly does.  Scott Joplin's House is not close to the Landing. "Or gaze north / Toward the isle of B.": I did not get to Biddle Street, but I am sure it is not tree-lined because it is along an old factory.  I have driven along those streets to the north, and I am sure that there were no trees (rather bleak, actually). So, I cannot see how this verse would work with the St. Louis site.  This is unfortunate because I was hoping it would lead to a revelation.  However, I may have missed something, whether in my eyes or my brain.

Johann, I really appreciate your efforts! It was so hot yesterday to be running around downtown. I thought at least something would come of this one. I'll keep working on..... something.  ??? Thanx again- X

Dan, You could have seen both from one of the Towers of the WTC, but alas that is all gone.. Who knows there might have been some sort of clue from that angle.. Not in the same view, one to the right and one to the left, but with a birds eye view something else might have come into sight. Just a thought. Maybe if you map it out on paper with a line drawn to connect them both it will cross a park and bring another thought to mind.

Unknown: Hi all.  I just found out aobout this yesterday; been researching today while I'm "working". Assuming this verse points to NYC, and that there IS something in NYC, then... "In the shadow Of the grey giant" Could this be the Little Red Lighthouse that sits literally in the shadow of the George Washington Bridge?  As an added bonus, the LRL is in Fort Washington Park, and obviously "Cars abound" on the GWB. Hello all.  Virgin posting here.  Allow me to introduce myself.  I am Egbert's (until now, Imaginary) partner from the Cleveland trip.  Suffice to say I have been completely hooked on the hunt since the May 8th find.  Despite Egbert's urging, I have been reluctant to post until I had something "brilliant" to add, as I have been overwhelmed and somewhat intimidated by all the great postings that have been placed on this website.  However, the Bergen Record (North Jersey Newspaper) did a great piece on our Cleveland trip yesterday (front page!!) and I figured it was high time to stick my toe into the proverbial pool and finally test the waters. I assume the piece in yesterday's paper is what Dan is referring to when he says he just found about this yesterday.  And speaking of the Bergen Record, I also noticed the article on the front page of today's "Local" section about the Little Red Lighthouse with a picture of the LRL standing directly under the "big gray bridge."  Odd coincidence that this article would have been published a day after the newspaper did a big piece on the Secret and our Cleveland pilgrimage.  The article goes on to talk about a famous children's book called "The Little Red Lighthouse and the Great Grey Bridge."  Given the fact that B.P. is involved in the book publishing biz with an obvious flair for literary references, I think it is logical to assume that he might be familiar with this book and may well explain the reference to something standing in the shadow of the great grey giant, further supporting the notion that verse 10 is speaking of NYC. Finally, despite Dan's suggestion that much in NYC has changed since 1982, I think it is also a fair assumption that all of the locations that B.P. chose to bury the casques would have been places that he was confident would stand the test of time and never be disturbed (ie. the Cleveland Cultural Gardens).  Having been to the Gardens, it is clear that the Greek wall was there in 1982 and would be there as long as there was a city of Cleveland to speak of.  Of course, the unimaginable can occur, such as the way 9/11 changed the overall landscape of lower Manhattan, but the specific place chosen by B.P. for burial of the casque (assuming there IS one in NYC) must have been in a spot that he felt would remain untouched or unchanged by human hands.  Thus by choosing areas near monuments, or even a lighthouse, he would have ensured that he was burying his casques in places that were so much a part of the landscape that there would be no chance the area might be bought out by some land developer and altered to create some new project or community.  How else would B.P. have guarded against the possibility that the burial sight might otherwise be changed over time meaning that either the casque might never be found, or, in the alternative, discovered by some construction worker by accident, and not a bona fide treasure seeker and avid reader of his book.  My guess is that he was far too clever to allow for that to happen. Well, that's all for now.  Nothing too "brilliant" for starters.  Just wanted to introduce myself into the game and offer a few thoughts.

Heya Siskel! Great article in Saturday's Bergen Record. I'd like to extend a 'congrats' to you and Egbert as well as all who helped in the quest from Q4T. Always a fan of a good mystery or riddle, I decided to get in on the action. Who knows, maybe once this NYC riddle is solved, we can get some people from the area (I'm in Wayne, NJ) together to dig 'er up!

First of all, a warm welcome to Egbert's co-pilot! Secondly, a request that someone might post the text of the Bergen article online somewhere which does not require (yet another) registration to read it; perhaps Egbert will add it to his "15 minutes of Fame" directory. Thirdly, some random thoughts i've had in the back of my mind for Verse 10 and NYC. In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound -- I'd really like this to be an amusement park, such as a roller coaster or bumper cars, which is only open in summer (typical of the northeast, i'd imagine). Indies native -- Think West Indies (or East Indies) instead of Native Americans. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more -- As the hour of what?  Certainly not the time of day you go to dig!  I did find a town -- not in NY, sorry -- which had a "Nine o'clock gun" which is a cannon they fire at the same time every day.  I would look for a permanent object like that, or a monument or plaque with a specific hour displayed. In rhapsodic man's soil -- Gershwin is the obvious rhapsody guy for NYC. Toward the isle of B. -- I tried researching the small islands around Manhattan and up the Hudson, but nothing caught my eye. That's all for now!  I'm spread pretty thin today, but might be online for brainstorming in a chat later tonight.

Also saw the bergen record article.  congrats from Rochelle park. I'll post more, when i have something good to note.

Several more thoughts.  First, the spelling in the verse is "grey" giant, which is more often used in Britain, as opposed to the more American "gray."  Does this point to someone or something named Grey, or possibly to a site in Canada? Second, Alexander Hamilton was born in the West Indies.  Here are some signs with his name in New York: hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11942 . hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11882 . hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... hp?id=8711 .

I'm confused. We don't have specific confirmation that there isn't another gem in Philidelphia, do we?  Just because Image 4 didn't lead there doesn't rule it out for  the rest -- not unless someone has a communication from the publisher they'd like to share. [Or was this stated in the Bergen article which I still have not accessed?] And I know there was another post or two that has been deleted in the past day.  Someone had some helpful notes about Gershwin and other amusement parks, but that info is now gone. And we've found 2 casques now, leaving 10.  Just wanted to clarify that dated statement above.

Unknown: I'm confused. We don't have specific confirmation that there isn't another gem in Philidelphia, do we?  Just because Image 4 didn't lead there doesn't rule it out for  the rest -- not unless someone has a communication from the publisher they'd like to share. [Or was this stated in the Bergen article which I still have not accessed?] I thought I mentioned it a long time ago, but maybe not.  When I was speaking to BP originally, I told him that I thought there was a gem in Philly.  He said he doesn't recall hiding one there, but it had been a long time (this conversation was in 1997 I believe).  So, I took that statement "with a grain of salt," and continued to look for clues in Philly.  But, as it is now becoming clear, BP's memory was probably correct.  :( As for the Bergen Record article, someone just reprinted it in another thread today.  When I have time, I will add it into my own website.

Just a couple more thoughts: 1. In the shadow of the grey giant: WTC 2. Find the arm that extends over the slender path: Verrazano- Narrows Bridge 3.  In Summer you'll often hear a whirring sound: Helicopter tours 4. Cars abound-Duh it's a bridge in NYC Middle part is kinda still evading me. 5. In Rhapsodic man's soil- Possibly Gershwin Park in Brooklyn. 6. or gaze north towards the isle of B. - Block Island discovered by Verrazano. Just some thoughts.  Need to figure out the middle about Hard word and Natives.

Has anyone else thought that "v" is not "vee", but one of the points on the star that makes up the base of the statue of Libert?

I saw this and just a thought on this: Remember "Palisades Amusement Park"? Just south of the GW bridge. There are 2 or 3 big Apartment buildings there now.Did they erect a landmark or sign "there" at or near the apartaments to the fact that great park we all went to as kid's(at least me anyway.lol).Proberly worth driving by there and taking a look around. I know the lighthouse is on the NY side of the bridge. There is a car path down below to the NJ side. At least the lasat time I've been there when I lived in Ft. Lee some years ago. That path may all be closed or blocked off now for security reasons since 9/11. Also there is the historic park and museum on the NJ side right next to the bridge.There is a foot path throughout.Maybe some Native Indian displays through that park.Not sure as it's been many years years since I 've been there But I can't see how one would have permission to dig and bury something there.It was a historic park when I lived in Ft. Lee in 1982. The path(s) on the oppisite side of the bridge(north on the NJ side) were all pretty much public access at that time.We used to call that place "The Cliffs" when we were teenagers and went there to hang out and party.(70's) I got my feet wet with the great article in the Bergen Record last Sunday.I was tottally absorbed. My wife was looking at me reading that article like I was reading a letter from a long lost friend! I made a couple of Capt. Blie pirate treasure maps for my 2 boy's for a backyard fun treasure over the last couple of years. Loads of fun. Congrats Egbert+Siskel! Great article in The Record. F7, I'd be happy to volunteer and bring my shovel to a dig. [quote] In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound -- I'd really like this to be an amusement park, such as a roller coaster or bumper cars, which is only open in summer (typical of the northeast, i'd imagine).

Some thoughts on this verse: 1.  Re Gershwin:  Born in Brooklyn, grew up on the Lower East Side.  Parents emigrants from St. Petersburg.  Birth name: Jacob Gershowitz. 2.  Only working amusment park in NYC is Coney Island's Astroland. 3.  "Indies native" could also refer to Columbus.  He was searching for the East Indies.  There are a number of monuments to Columbus in NYC. 3a.  There is a Columbus Park on the Lower East Side.  Mosco Street intersects one of the sides. 4.  I think that "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound" can break down as: "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer" "You'll often hear a whirring sound" rather than: "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path" "In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound" 5.  Roosevelt Island used to be called "Blackwell's Island". If this and P12 refer to NYC, we need to narrow it down to a borough.  There's just too much to consider otherwise. -Dan

I don't have much to add here, but two things stood out for me here. First since we are assuming that we are looking for this in a city, "cars abound" seems odd. All cities have "cars abound" this leads me to believe that it may be railroad cars, or cars in a roller coaster, or maybe even a car muesem, but not just cars driving by. Second "Take twice as many east steps as the hour" I take this to mean once we match the verse to an image the "steps" will be twice the hour the image is associated with.

I agree. "Cars Abound" is far too literal to be literal. If everyone agrees that this is most likely New York, I travel across the GWB every weekend to spend the weekends in Queens, NY. I have no problem spending my weekends digging or taking pictures of places you think this could be.

Unknown: I always expected Him of Hard word to be pointing to an author. I've thought the same thing. The fact that Hard was capitalized made me think that it was part of a title. The only thing I've come up with is Hard Times by Charles Dickens which was written as 3 volumes (it was released one volume at time through his periodical). The only statue of Dickens in the world is in Philly but Egbert has said that BP didn't think he put one there. Dickens came to the US several times and saw Boston, NYC, St Louis, Montrael among other cities so there may be a connection to one of those.

Since I'm having trouble making St. Louis work, perhaps we should consider St. Louis a possibility for this verse and see what happens (along with considering the other cities just mentioned too).

addendum--At this time, I have no idea how to make the Dickens connection to St. Louis.  There are no statues of him there.

I thoroughly agree that "him of Hard word in three vols." seems to refer to Dickens as we posted in an earlier posting August 24, 2004 regarding image 12.  Even as my cousin JRock recently pointed out to me, the later reference in verse 10 that speaks of something being "passed the hour OR MORE" is language very often used by Dickens in his writings - a google search of this term and Dickens shows he made use of this somewhat odd phrasing in a number of his works including Great Expectations and Oliver Twist.  Still figuring out Dickens part in all of this is difficult.  For thoughts on this you might start with the following: hxxp://www.fidnet.com/~dap1955/dickens/america.html has some good info on Chuck.  Charts his 1842 visit to the states which had him travel as far west as St. Louis, before turning back north and east toward Canada.  This is the only connection to St. Louis that I can find for Dickens.  More interesting, I think, is his trip to Niagara Falls.  I have long thought that the water pictured in image 12 seems to resemble a water fall (especially the way the waves are cresting on the bottom right-hand portion of the illustration).  If image 12 goes with verse 10, the Dickens reference might be leading to Niagara Falls.  Reason I say this is that his description of the falls in his letters (also can be found on the right side of the above-referenced site under heading "Dickens' letters to John Forster from Ameica-1842 - Visiting Niagara Falls") is a very famous passage in that it was apparently the one place in the US that Dickens thought to be remarkably beautiful.  SO much so that when you go to a site on Niagara Falls hxxp://www.niagarafallsstatepark.com you can go to the "Discover the Falls - Amazing Facts and Figures" section and pictured in the right hand corner is an illustration of - you guessed it - Charles Dickens.  Seems Niagara Tourism uses Dickens' description of the falls to this day as one of the great passages ever written about the National Park.  While Dickens seems to have other connections to NY and the lower east side/Bowery area, I don't see any other stronger connection why the "Natives would still be speaking of him of Hard word" except to echo his passionate descriptive terms to promote the National State Park at Niagara. Thus, I wonder if image 12 with the face of the Lady Liberty could actually be referring to the New York state side of Niagra Falls?? and not St. Louis or the lower east side of Manhattan. Being as how much of this posting also pertains to the string on image 12, I will copy and post a portion of the same there as well to see if it stirs up any thoughts.

This verse may be connected to Vancouver (and image 12).  "him of Hard word" may refer to the President Harding's Visit memorial in Stanley Park in Vancouver (see my post in the image 12 thread). Stanley Park has a path/road that appears to wind around near the Lion's Gate Bridge in West Vancouver. www.trailcanada.com/photos/photos-bc-17-08.asp The bridge appears to loom over the trail, as the verse says: In the shadow / Of the grey giant / Find the arm that / Extends over the slender path . . . Also, off West Vancouver is Bowen Island, hence "the isle of B."

Three vol.s may refer to picture 39, which shows two "volumes" (to the left and right of the harding face). Perhaps there's another one on the other side. there's also statues to Robert Burns and shakespeare wilhouse

The Fortress By: Vernon Stiefel Details: The Fortress is a stunning spine-like formation that runs east to west in the heart of the northern part of the Wonderland of Rocks. Numerous vertical, slanting, or discontinuous crack systems are found on the north face. Directly north of the Fortress is the Flying Fortress and lying west is the Grey Giant and the Tombstone. These formations feature excellent crack and face climbs. Legendary climbers including Randy Leavitt, Tony Yaniro, and Mike Lechlinski established a few of the best and longest climbs in the Park on the Fortress and adjacent formations. Natural Selection (5.10d) and Weekend Warrior (5.11a) are two examples of superb crack climbs but the ultra-classic on this wall is the Catapult (5.11b). Climbers making the relatively long trek to this area should have a comprehensive rack with stoppers and cams to 4". Two ropes to rappel off are also necessary. Get There: The approach to this area begins in the large parking area near Key's Corner where the boyscout trail to Indian Cove exists. Head northeast on the well-marked trail for about a mile. When the trail forks, take the trail that veers northeast. After about one more mile, the trail ends in a wash that branches northeast and south. The Atom Smasher Boulders and Timbuktu Towers lie to the northeast. Take the wash that veers in a southerly direction (trail markers have been recently established) and follow it as it meanders towards the Grey Giant. Numerous boulders in the wash near the Grey Giant require boulder hopping and tunnelling. The best approach to The Fortress from the base of the Grey Giant is to remain north of the Grey Giant and head east for a notch between the Grey Giant and Flying Fortress. This entails some time consuming scrambling and boulder hopping. Once the notch is reached, the serene Fortress Valley lies before you. Maybe

Not a lot of time spent on this verse (as you will soon see!), but my thoughts were (like many others except for #2 & 4 which I didn't see discussed): 1) grey giant - bridge of some sort 2) Indies native - Jamaica Bay, NYC 3) rhapsodic man's soil - hometown Brooklyn NYC 4) Isle of B - isle of Brooklyn (Long Island) or maybe relates to one of the islands in Jamaica Bay there's a peninsula of land on the other side of Jamaica bay that is south of Brooklyn/Long Island - contains Jacob Riiis park (writer/photographer), FOrt Tilden park, Breezy Point.

johann wrote:: This verse may be connected to Vancouver (and image 12).  "him of Hard word" may refer to the President Harding's Visit memorial in Stanley Park in Vancouver (see my post in the image 12 thread). Stanley Park has a path/road that appears to wind around near the Lion's Gate Bridge in West Vancouver. www.trailcanada.com/photos/photos-bc-17-08.asp The bridge appears to loom over the trail, as the verse says: In the shadow / Of the grey giant / Find the arm that / Extends over the slender path . . . Also, off West Vancouver is Bowen Island, hence "the isle of B." Nice work Johann... maybe we have finally found the 1 Canadian casque?  Looks like it's time to immerse myself into the Vancouver skyline and noted statues/memorials so we can link this with a P. pic 39 wilhouse?   :-\ me confused  I like your "volumes"

well, whatever picture 39 referred to is not there any more. sorry. wilhouse

whew, thanks Wilhouse.  for a moment there I thought I was on the wrong page of pix.

johann wrote:: . . . Also, off West Vancouver is Bowen Island, hence "the isle of B." slight problem with that however...  looking at this very crude map of Vancouver & Bowen Island hxxp://www.bowencommunitychurch.org/bowenisland1.jpg if you were due South of the Isle of B "Or gaze north Toward the isle of B." well, than you would be in a world of trouble without a paddle...

hmmmmm . . . . good point

It's true that Bowen Island is northwest of Stanley Park, but it's a lot more West than North. That made me think: where would you have to be in Vancouver to look north toward Bowen Island? You have to go farther south or west. English Bay beach is just south of Stanley Park and it houses a big grey statue! Check this out: hxxp://www.seethewestend.com/inukshuk/inukshuk.htm Here's a photo looking northwest from the sculpture on English Bay Beach. Could that be Bowen Island in the background? hxxp://www.trailcanada.com/photos/photos-bc-14-25.asp But there's one big catch: the sculpture was commissioned for Expo 86 -- after The Secret was published. Farther west there's another promising spot:  Pacific Spirit Park, near Point Grey. That might give new meaning to the term "grey giant" too. Perhaps there is a spectacularly "giant" tree at Point Grey? On the map I see a "Historical Monument" out there but I haven't found out more about that. There are a number of paths to the shore in this park so the overall narrative of the poem could fit. Here's a link to a map (it's a PDF): hxxp://www.gvrd.bc.ca/parks/maps/Pacificspiritmap.pdf I hacked out a quick map to show these locations and their position relative to Bowen Island: hxxp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ ... verMap.gif Of course the Harding monument is in Stanley Park, not Pacific Spirit Park... [edited to fix image link]

Here's a little more info about Pacific Spirit Park: The Historic Monument might be related to "two searchlight towers that are relics from the second world war," as mentioned here in wikipedia: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_Beach One of those could be a "grey giant". As shown on the map on that page, there are some narrow breakwaters near that beach called the North Arm Breakwater and the North Arm Jetty. "Slender arm," anyone? Does anyone here live in Vancouver?

Nice work, Aces88.

hey Aces...nice finds.  is very interesting that I came across Grey Point last night before reading these posts.  Now, what exactly is Grey Point or Point Grey?  If there is a hill or mountain here, couldnt that be the GREY giant in and of itself?

A Grey Point photo (OF the Point or FROM the Point???) on the bottom left: pamir.chez.tiscali.fr/Voiliers/Classe_A/Pamir/Harbors/Vancouwe.htm It is a peninsula from the city towards Vancouver Island: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/crieff/pgbg1.html

Hmmm, are there any nice parks or gardens (possibly containing a band shell ) near GP?  You can't get much more "giant" than a mountain.

"There has come down only a single Native American tale describing the eventual disappearance of the "Shining Ones," an account of the Nootka people of Vancouver Island, British Columbia . . ." (p. 24).

Regarding the "Isle of B.", I don't think it's been mentioned yet--Liberty Island where the Statue of Liberty stands was officially "Bedloe's Island" until the 1950's, although it doesn't seem likely you'd be gazing north to it.

Good point. I suppose you could look north to it from eastern Staten Island or western Brooklyn...

Okay, one of my summary posts, just to spur some thought. Nothing much new to add, but there are tidbits scattered here and there. Read on... In the shadow Of the grey giant frishkie suggests this may refer to someone named Grey. The Grey Giant is the name of a rock formation, popular among climbers, in Joshua Tree National Park in southern California: hxxp://www.climbingjtree.com/rock/db/wonderland_north/the_fortress/ Find the arm that Extends over the slender path From "Poet's Path" by Robert W. Service: My garden hath a slender path With ivy overgrown, A secret place where once would pace A poet all alone; I see him now with fretted brow, Plunged deep in thought; And sometimes he would write maybe, And sometimes he would not. In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound maltedfalcon : Ferries run all year round. Perhaps the whirring sound is Cicadas. Cars abound nectarbean : "Cars Abound" is far too literal to be literal. Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native Egbert : Could mean "N. D.'s native," as in North Dakota. frishkie : Could refer to Alexander Hamilton, born in the British West Indies: hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/historical_signs/hs_historical_sign.php?id=11942 Indians (aka Native Americans) used to live in NYC, so there must be signs around. Battery Park is at the tip of NYC, and you can see the Statue of Liberty from there. The National Museum of the American Indian is located at the tip of Battery Park. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Why is Hard capitalized? Why is Vols. abbreviated? Volcanoes? Volunteers? Volumes? Three Tennesseeans? Three volumes , as in quiet / medium / loud? That would fit well with "speak," but it's difficult to think what the context might be. johann : A friend of mine suggests North Dakota for this verse. The lines "The natives still speak / Of him of Hard word," as well as the "grey giant," could refer to a statue of an Indian chief carved in a mountain. johann : "him of Hard word" may refer to the President Harding's Visit memorial in Stanley Park in Vancouver. I find it unlikely that Harding would be referred to as "him of Hard word;" maybe it's just me. Take twice as many east steps as the hour mm2587 : A reference to the hour in the accompanying image, whatever that is. The verses sometimes reference the matching image, as we know from Image 3 / Roanoke. Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots Peculiar word choice here. Why "simple" roots? In rhapsodic man's soil George Gershwin ( Rhapsody in Blue ) grew up on the lower east side of NYC. Boba Fett : In Rhapsodic man's soil- Possibly Gershwin Park in Brooklyn. Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. Egbert : Liberty Island used to be known as Bedloe's Island. maltedfalcon : Liberty Island is south of Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty is pretty much green danok2 : Roosevelt Island used to be called "Blackwell's Island". hxxp://www.correctionhistory.org/rooseveltisland/ Fenix : As for the Isle of B, U Thant Island which is across from the UN headquarters on 42nd was known as Belmont Island up until about 1976 or so. hxxp://www.answers.com/topic/u-thant-island johann : off West Vancouver is Bowen Island, hence "the isle of B." (P.S. ... Siskel & Egbert; I get it, hardee har har)

at one point I was poking around the Liberty island vancouver site and found a picture of harding and two books in a concrete monument. I looked later and it was gone. well, lo and behold, I was looking around some of my old Houston pictures and found it had been saved on my hard drive.  It may be that there are 3 books on the whole monument, this only shows 2. wilhouse ______________________________ Bryon Preiss, you will not be forgotten.

Those would defintly be hard words.

This is Stalney Park, is it not?  (See the image 9 thread.)

Oops.  Typo, sorry.  Stanley Park.

Johann, yes, this is Stanley Park. wilhouse

Wow, nice evidence in favor of Stanley Park. Here is some more: "...Stanley Park is a permanent preserve of wilderness in the heart of the city, complete with dense coastal forests and abundant wildlife. It was Alexander Hamilton , land commissioner for the Canadian Pacific Railway, whose proposal to preserve the end of Burrard Peninsula led to the creation of the park, which was later named for Lord Stanley, Canada's governor-general from 1888 to 1893. It is dedicated for "the use and enjoyment of all peoples of all colors, creeds, and customs for all time." (from hxxp://www.nwsource.com/travel/scr/tf_detail.cfm?dt=3674&cid=2&pageid=BC&cityid=90 ) Alexander Hamilton (the other one) was, as frishkie pointed out earlier, an "Indies native," having been born in the West Indies. For those of you who have visited Stanley Park - is there a sign anywhere in the park commemorating Mr. Hamilton?

forest_blight wrote:: Wow, nice evidence in favor of Stanley Park. Here is some more: "...Stanley Park is a permanent preserve of wilderness in the heart of the city, complete with dense coastal forests and abundant wildlife. It was Alexander Hamilton , land commissioner for the Canadian Pacific Railway, whose proposal to preserve the end of Burrard Peninsula led to the creation of the park, which was later named for Lord Stanley, Canada's governor-general from 1888 to 1893. It is dedicated for "the use and enjoyment of all peoples of all colors, creeds, and customs for all time." (from hxxp://www.nwsource.com/travel/scr/tf_detail.cfm?dt=3674&cid=2&pageid=BC&cityid=90 ) Alexander Hamilton (the other one) was, as frishkie pointed out earlier, an "Indies native," having been born in the West Indies. For those of you who have visited Stanley Park - is there a sign anywhere in the park commemorating Mr. Hamilton? The CPR Hamilton was probably more commonly known as Lauchlan Hamilton.  Alexander was his middle name. Drew

Oh. Darn.

FWIW... Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native Here's a sign from Totem Park inside Stanley Park in Vancouver: hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/totems/lgtotem05.jpg INDIAN TOTEM POLES The totem was the British Columbia Indian's "coat of arms".  Totem poles are unique to the north west coast of B.C. and lower Alaska. They were carved from western red cedar and each carving tells of a real or mythical event. They were not idols, nor were they worshipped. Each carving on each pole has a meaning. The eagle represents the kingdom of the air, the whale, the lordship of the sea, the wolf, the genius of the land, and the frog, the transitional link between land and sea. This link has more pics of Totem Park: hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/totems/page6totems.htm

1. Fort Hamilton is at he foot of the Verrazano Bridge in Brooklyn. Hamilton is from West Indies?  The fort was named for him. 2. Is there a greater grey giant in NYC? 3. "From ther middle of one branch of the v"  (v for Verrazano) 4. rhapsodic man soil? It all points to the Verrazano.  Linus had mentioned in the image 12 thread that the picture looked like the arches of the bridge.  Couldn't be more true.  Which side of the bridge?  Towards the isle of B?  Barren Island?  There's an old airport by the Rockaway called Floyd Bennet Field.  But the verse sounds like it's near Fort Hamilton, arm over slender path.  Find the Fort Hamilton sign and I think your close.

I'm with you on this one boogieman.  The only question I have is about the 3 Vols. of Hard word....which does seem to fit nicely with Vancouver.

You guys talking about NY and NJ may want to take a look at these pics first.  They were found by Pine Tree, if I recall. hxxp://www.holyres.org/eng.htm Go to "Photo Albums" "Sobor Views" Also go to "Church History" "The construction of the new Church" and "External Views of the present Church" My money is on Vancouver for this treasure.  I can't find any other good pics of this church. Also, Verse 10:  "Him of Hard word in 3 Vols." has got to be the Harding Memorial.  It even has the bird in Image 12 (though not an exact match, I admit). Look at #38-40. hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/statplaq/page9bstat&plaq.htm hxxp://collections.ic.gc.ca/sva/bc/van_01/pg_14e.htm hxxp://collections.ic.gc.ca/sva/bc/van_01/pg_12e.htm I have searched high and low for a rear view of the Harding Memorial, but I have not found one.  I would love to see if his words are on 3 tablets rather than just 2.  I have seen a close up pic of a lion's face on the rear of the memorial, but there is no large pic of what else is back there. The Grey Giant? hxxp://www.trailcanada.com/photos/photos-bc-17-08.asp The arm that extends over the slender path?  Look at #33-34. hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/statplaq/page9bstat&plaq.htm Or perhaps Pic #1. hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/statplaq/page9astat&plaq.htm I am hoping that this will attract some interest in Vancouver again, and perhaps we can do some deeper digging.  I think we have found that nearly every Image has some geographic outline.  Perhaps those lines in the water in Image 12 is an outline of Vancouver or Stanley Park. I am also posting this in the Image 12 thread, so we can have a summary of the Vancouver findings.

Darn this Secret.  Look at this from Vanvouver and tell me you don't start thinking image3 with that symbol.. hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... D%26sa%3DN But that monument is the only thing I've seen where something had been sunk( sink -image12). hxxp://www.seestanleypark.com/statplaq/lg24.jpg

The largest structure in Brooklyn. Over 500 feet. And across the street from a nice park.

Note that Image 12 has the stained glass images as small objects, not as close up markers. This signafies landmarks from a skyline. Here I show a view from one of the skyline landmarks, the clock, looking out at the steel giant.  This is for distance comparison. Under the shadow of, versus, in view of.

Trohn - Can you elaborate on this locations for those of us not familiar with the area? What are you claiming is the "steel giant"?

So I went to the library searching for 80's-era travel books for Charleston.  Didn't find a whole lot other than mention that George Gerswhin spent time down in Charleston co-writing the opera Porgy and Bess.  Lived at a place called Folly Beach, on one of the barrier islands (cough, Island of B.?). I know this goes contrary to everything else on this thread and I have nothing else to support it, but it was interesting.

Really wanting this to link up with Brooklyn, as I am a East coast boy, alas it does not. I have found a positive link hear with Image 1. For someone on the West coast, this is positively for San Francisco. Keep in mind, to properly get the clues for Image 1, you need to view them from a mirror! Anyways, this verse does not reference the Golden Gate, but The Bay Bridge.  More specifcally Yerba Buena (the Indies Natives) The rhapsodic man.... Enrico Caruso who is known here for ushering in the great quake of 1906. The island is right in the middle of the bay, at the foot of the bridge... next to Traesure Island, a military base for most of its man made existence. I find this spot funny, it diesginates the founding by the Spanish, at the foot of a famous China town, and designated by an Italian! Check it out.

100 years ago, today! hxxp://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/t ... etter.html Find the right orientation... Due North, Isle of B (in the Bay) Brooke's or Boone.. can't remember at the moment.

Find the slender path...

Some time ago "unknown_user" posted what may be the best theories yet for this verse. The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge is situated such that Bedloe's Island ( isle of B ?) is visible. "Narrows" may be a reference to the slender path . He goes on to say that rhapsodic man's soil may refer to Gershwin Park in Brooklyn. Only problem is, Gershwin Park is very far away from the bridge (bounded by Stanley Ave., Linden Blvd., Van Siclen Ave., and Vermont St.). Can this be taken further?

In summer you'll often hear a whirring sound Two possibilities here.  Coney Island is about a mile away.  The Amusement Park has whirring sounds. Only open in the spring through summer. The other is the MTA rail yard just north of Fort Hamilton.  Lots of whirring there, only the whirring goes on through the winter.  Just what is "whirring"?

"whirring" Noise made by helicopter blades.(?) The noise from the act of a spinning rapidly.(?) from the same root as the verb "whirl".

"Whirring" in this case is an onomatopoeia that is also a double entendre, making it all the more ambiguous.  Whew!

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Columbus.  Wasn't an Indies native, but he was there.  For butchery and slavery.  Maybe there's intention here to make us think that "HIM" is an Indies native.  The way it's worded, does HE have to be? Hard Word- If I'm writing history on the Indies, hard word on Columbus and the Indies is the beginning. Maybe there's a statue of him with the history of that time speaking about indies torture. Christopher Columbus Drive-downtown Jersey City by our church? Columbus Circle- uptown Manhattan by central park?

of hard word = giving of facts , in 3 vols. = in 3 geometric areas.    Back to menloparkmuseum for me... the stone monument at the point of the "V" , the museum, and the tower. I'm still thinkin' it!

adoks53 wrote:: of hard word = giving of facts , in 3 vols. = in 3 geometric areas.    Back to menloparkmuseum for me... the stone monument at the point of the "V" , the museum, and the tower. I'm still thinkin' it! I think you have to fight to prove your point here.  I'd love it to be Edison, but you are really just dropping hints with no facts. We need visual confirmers linking the image to the site.  You're trying to sell this but seem to want somebody else to confirm it for you.  Give me something else and I'll go there.

I always thought "of hard word" meant that the Indies spoke ill of him.

I always thought that "of hard word" was the foreign translation (answer depends upon the language of the naitves) My thought being "Duras"  (isn't that Hard in Spanish?)

did u guys not like my hard words? wilhouse hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=728.60

I think you mean DURO trohn.  Gotta keep the masculine.  Why did you choose spanish trohn?  If that is the case, then this P matches with V6? Wilhouse, almost forgot about your "Hard"ing words.  'tis amazing how theories come along and simply vanish...no wonder we cant find another casque.  speaking of finding a casque...good luck on the dig tomorrow wil.  Bring us home a casque, k?

wilhouse wrote:: did u guys not like my hard words? wilhouse Fox is right, no wonder we can't find one.  Give me an image other than image 12 and I'm down with it.

My delimma with this verse and the locations that I have scouted always ends with: "Rhapsodic man's soil" The 'Ilse of B' indicates the proximity to a coast or Harbor and there are three or four good locations where gazing North to an B island exists.... It is finding a Statue or a Park dedicated to a music man (Mozart, Gherswin, Cohen, MIller, Caruso) keeps me scratching my head.

Trohn wrote:: (Mozart, Gherswin, Cohen, MIller, Caruso) keeps me scratching my head. I can see Gershwin, but why the others?

Depends upon the city in question... If this is San Francisco, the soil can either be  of which Tony Bennett sings or a Caruso monument concerning the 1906 earthquake. The others I threw in as icons I've used to search in particular areas without success. Gershwin has been metioned linking to NY. (but little success of lnking it) I tried to find somethig in Stanley Park to fit this, but came up empty. Other turn of the century men to consider??

You know what would be great?  To find Rhapsodic man's soil in Vancouver.  That could wrap this verse up nicely.

maybe Trohn is right here.  Maybe we need to be more general with our "rhapsodic man".  Instead of assuming Gershwin for Rhapsody in Blue, why not just think of rhapsody as in music. Hmm...just thought of something while typing this out and havent done any research....more than likely a dead end but... Does one of our possible cities have a Blue Island in the harbor somewhere?  That would confirm Gershwin as our Rhapsodic man and give us our Isle of B...

fox wrote:: Does one of our possible cities have a Blue Island in the harbor somewhere?  That would confirm Gershwin as our Rhapsodic man and give us our Isle of B...   :-\ There's one outside of Chicago...No help. How 'bout Bohemian Rhapsody .  Rhapsodic man-  Freddie Mercury, or Queen.  That song came out way before the Secret. Queen was bigger in Canada than it was here believe or not.  Is Sean Kelly a fan?  Maybe Mercury Street, or Queen Street or a name of a park.  Lot's of soil in a park.

Interestingly coincidental..... would a 'Bohemian' be considered an 'Indies Native' I think they would.... Strange but true with this verse.

Rhapsodic man may also be a historical figure or personality local to only the area near the burial site--not necessarily known on a national/famous level--like a Gershwin.  May be the reason for being stuck on this with regard to research.  Just a thought.

Stercox, Your thoughts are true with all of the verses - local site details versus overall theme details.  As was designed in 1981 - this arguement would hold a lot of merit - but in today's environment with the internet and photo sharing - it holds less wieght and secrets are harder to desiguise. My research on Gershwin has found two parks:  Brroklyn (renamed to Linden) and Gershwin Park, San Deigo.

stercox wrote:: Rhapsodic man may also be a historical figure or personality local to only the area near the burial site--not necessarily known on a national/famous level--like a Gershwin.  May be the reason for being stuck on this with regard to research.  Just a thought. We don't know what may be or what might not necessarily be until we solve it.  Therefore all ideas must be considered. Of course Stercox, I value your opinions, but this last quote seems to put the kabosh on Rhapsodic man.  I know however that was not your intent. There must be a true meaning for the use of Rhapsodic, other than mere poetry. rhapsodic : characrteristic of, or having the nature of rhapsody; extravagantly enthusiastic; ecstatic. Maybe we are looking for an ecstatic poet or song writer whose soil is at the foot of their monument.

or it could also just simply be a referance to a "musical" statue or monument.  perhaps a Bach, Beethoven, etc.....

Sorry Stercox, you may be right.  I don't see any other way of finding Rhapsodic man now until it is stumbled upon when the middle of one branch of the v is found first. adoks53, is Thomas Edison a Rhapsodic man?

Unknown: but this last quote seems to put the kabosh on Rhapsodic man Boogie--My intent is not to kabosh anything--heck, I'm not even very good at playing devil's advocate. I'll leave that to the professionals.  While we all hold certain theories closer to our hearts than others--I am generally in support and open to all thoughts involving this hunt.  My comment was one of commiseration and thinking about alternatives.  Sorry if it felt I was shooting down ideas. Let's Hunt!

Ya know Stercox, I should sometimes just have my fingers removed.

according to the definition of rhapsodic that i found, he seemed to fit the bill...it doesen't necessarily have to do exclusively with music, even though we all equate it to be that way from ...say..."rhapsody in blue"

Hello all. I found another possible meaning for Rhapsodic man. hxxp://epiphanystudio.com/what_is_rhapsodic_theater_ Pope John Paul II started this. Perhaps the middle of one branch of the v refers to the Vatican. There are 3 branches in all. Lafitte

More thoughts on  this... 1. Hard word in 3 vols.  This really threw me. But... Hard words, books? 3 Vols. The Library of Congress consists of 3 buildings. Jefferson(rhapsodic man?), Adams, and Madison. 2.The face could be a combo of 2 of these and the collars go with this style. 3.The cap...Capital hill? 4.39 N 76 W  D.C lat and long. 5.Perhaps the dogleg ironwork is found on the grounds. 6.Twice as many east steps as the hour or more from the middle of one branch of the v...from the middle of the Jefferson building? Just musings here. I'm thinking this goes with image #9. hxxp://www.loc.gov/loc/maps/images/map.gif What do y'all think? Lafitte

As I've just posted on image12, I believe that we have to consider the "slender path" to be the Narrows Inlet and the "arm that extends" to be the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, if we believe that BP would use slender to tie in with Narrow.  The grey giant??  Needs a little more sorting out.

I like your slender=narrows idea!

Me too!

How does this sound? In the shadow of the grey giant = Verrazano Find the arm = arm is something other than the bridge, like a lamp post, sign, or tree branch leaning over the water.  Or, a jetty jutting out over the water.  Hmmm....  Would be great if it only extended over water in the summer so we could end that thought and start anew with You'll often hear a whirring sound .  That way the sound can be actual cars on the highway which is real close to the water.  NO TRUCKS ALLOWED. Only cars abound on the Belt Parkway. that extends over the slender path = the meaning only one, slender meaning the Narrows Inlet. Still lots of work to do.  I apologize for rehashing all of this, though I do feel I'm starting all over-in a way.

The "Hard word" bit still bugs me. What does it mean? There is a recent movie called "The Hard Word," and in reference to its title, one IMDB readers says, "Putting the hard word on someone means intimidating them, scaring them, or making them do something they dont want to do... like 'why dont you put the hard word on him?'"

forest_blight wrote:: The "Hard word" bit still bugs me. What does it mean? I hear ya on that one.   Interesting thoughts on Hard word FB.  But how can you intimidate or scare someone in 3 vols.?  Some more to chew on I guess.  I've been trying to link Hard word as something etched or stamped into rock or monuments.  Still though, 3 vols? Also...  We know Gershwin (rhapsodic man's soil) was a New yorker, but I don't think it was mentioned that he was born in Brooklyn, where Fort Hamilton and the Verrazano are.  Thought I'd throw that into the pot.

What really bugs me is the fact that "Hard" is capitalized. In normal speech, when we say "hard word," we usually mean a word that is difficult to either spell or pronounce (as in, "circumambulation is a hard word"). But capitalizing it is odd. I don't like the Harding explanation because I can't see why anyone would describe Harding as "him of Hard word." It's just an odd way to express "Harding," riddle or no. Doesn't seem like something BP would consider clever or obfuscatory (there's another hard word for you!).

Hmmm.. "of him of Hard word".  If we ARE talking about Hamilton here, can this be interpreted as The Natives still speak of this man of hard words, which he published in 3 vols? I found this: His "Observations on Certain Documents" (Philadelphia, 1797) was republished in New York in 1865. In 1798 he defended in the newspapers the policy of increasing the army. His "Works," comprising the "Federalist," his most important official reports, and other writings, were published in three volumes (New York at hxxp://www.john-adams.org/alexanderHamilton.org/ edit: Hard, meaning official maybe.

Boogie, we may be onto something here. From Hamilton's "Works" (in, as you said, three volumes), both dating to 1797: "But I confess, I have not been well satisfied with the answer reported in the House. It contains too many hard expressions; and hard words are very rarely useful in public proceedings. Mr. Jay and other friends here have been struck in the same manner with myself. We shall not regret to see the answer softened down. Real firmness is good for every thing. Strut is good for nothing." The italics are in the original. Here's the other passage: "I received your letter of the ———. Though I do not like in some respects the answer of the House to the speech, yet I frankly own that I had no objection to see it softened down. For I think there is no use in hard words —and in public proceedings would almost always unite the suaviter in modo with the fortiter in re ." Again, italics in the original. Why would Hamilton italicize hard words ? Does he mean it as a euphemism for stern language?

and "if that were the case" it supports Fort Hamilton. (as a location) I wonder what the sign there saids.... Now if someone could find a sign that saids... "Alexander Hamilton, born in the West Indies, ...." that would be great

Wow! Nice work FB.  Although I have seen better examples of coincidence in other verses that have not panned out, it is still quite striking that those words are italicized in the original "works".  Did BP expect us to find this in a library back in 82'?  I'm about 40 minutes from there.  I'll have to find some time real soon and scope it out. Well, we've been down this road before. And it's still exciting.  Let's keep our fingers crossed. edit: Not meant to confuse, but just found this, in the shadow of the grey giant, you'll often hear a whirring sound; hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/hc916/270850778/ Arm over slender path, railroad tracks and foot bridge.

I have to admit, Fort Hamilton looks reeeeal good, better even than Battery Park once did. The passages from Hamilton are just as obscure as the quote from Pierre , and both are much more obscure than the references from Treasure Island in V6. On the other hand, maybe that quote from Pierre may not be so obscure, since it it is one of eleven quotes from Pierre for the wikiquote entry for Herman Melville. No sign at Fort Hamilton needs to proclaim Hamilton an Indies native, but if you're right about the Fort, then a sign somewhere should at least have mentioned how the fort got its name.

I too am really liking Ft Hamilton.  That kind of play on words is exactly like quoting Melville to lead us to Houston.  Great find.  Havent done any research on Ft Ham yet, would it be diggable?...or is it a state park or the likes? might I suggest you fellows keep narrowing it down....but not too fast, tho... My wife, 7yr old son and I are taking a trip to the big apple in July for a one time reunion concert of Dispatch.  Never been to NY and we are soooooo excited.  How cool would it be to include unearthing a "Secret" casque as well as visiting Lady Liberty, the Empire State building and Central Park? Would love to meet up with any NY hunters even if the casque is found before then so you can walk me thru the find. Keep up the good work guys....let us find us another casque

Is this our Ft Hamilton area under the Verrezano Bridge?

Fox, Fort Hamilton is still a working military base. If there is a cask in the area, I don't believe it would be on Fort Hamilton, but rather very close and nearby. You likely could not get on the Base without official business, nevermind digging up the grounds. King

Also, That is not the base in the picture. This picture is of the Brooklyn side of the bridge ( where Hamilton is ) but the base is on the south side of the entrance to the bridge

ah, thx Wilson.  That is what I was afraid of.  Hmmmm.

Here is a link for Staten Island and some clickable areas... hxxp://www.si-web.com/Recreation/ Take a look at the blurb concerning 'South Beach' - which is close to the bridge and the fort.. My point is that it mentions a small island in the narrows which goes unnamed.. Someone will need to confirm that this island is called "Tom Bell's Island"

Nope... It is called Hoffman's Isalnd. Tom Bell's Island/Woods is at the south/west section of south beach... away from the Fort and the bridge.

Link for John Paul Jones Park (Brooklyn) hxxp://www.qsl.net/bklynqrp/jpj-park.htm just outside of one of the gates to the Fort Hamilton. I didn't see anything that caught my attention, but maybe someone else will. I did have that thought that "branch" could refer to a military one.

Near here... the only thing 'extending into the water' or 'find the arm that extends over the slender path' is some greenry of the John Jones Park that is designated as Leif Erickson.... hxxp://gis.nyc.gov/parks/lc/NYCParkMapIt.do

A link to nearby "Fort Hamilton Memorial Park" hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... hp?id=7835 At least here we have a eagle to look at.

I have a few ideas that I'm trying to get ready for posting, but first I'd like to remind Fox of the line "Although the sign nearby" probably means that the Fort is close to the casque.  No way can you walk in there with a shovel. Check the view from the sky and let the eyes do the work. hxxp://local.live.com/ edit: Like the eagle trohn!

In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Is the Verrazano the grey giant or is it the arm that extends over the slender path ?  If the slender path is the Narrows Inlet, then the Verrazano is the arm and we have to find a new grey giant .  Can the WTC, which was easily seen from the bridge pre 9/11, be the grey giant ?  I don't want to involve image12 here yet and to just concentrate on the verse but to consider this we must consider that! If the grey giant is the bridge, what is the slender path ?  The bike path?  Can the slender path still be the Narrows and the boat ramp or jetty (I can't tell what that is yet) be the arm that extends over it? (this is what is just south east of the bridge) Jet skis and small boats, whirring sound in summer ?  The highway and off-ramp from the bridge are right there. Cars abound ? We think we know the Indies native, the sign, and the 3 vols, but what about Take twice as many east steps as the hour ? I believe the bridge runs more north and south so east would be towards Fort Hamilton/Coney Island direction, or simply out to sea. I'm thinking that the hour was maybe mentioned in the volumes along with hard word . Geez, this is tough! Don't worry Fox, even if by some crazy miracle this is solved before summer, I wouldn't dig it up without the ones who could make it out here.  I gotta read some more.  Any ideas?

Just throwing this out there...  could a cannon be the "arm that | Extends over the slender path"?

Does one find the arm while standing in the shadow of the grey giant?  Or, is the arm in the shadow of the grey giant?

I think by "hour" he means the hour corresponding to the P with which this V is paired.

Jambone wrote:: Just throwing this out there...  could a cannon be the "arm that | Extends over the slender path"? johann wrote:: Does one find the arm while standing in the shadow of the grey giant?  Or, is the arm in the shadow of the grey giant? forest_blight wrote:: I think by "hour" he means the hour corresponding to the P with which this V is paired. There is a cannon in John Paul Jones park, but does it extend over anything?  Is the fired cannon ball the extension? I suppose you will find the arm in the shadow when you find the grey giant.  The line From the middle of one branch of the v , I have always thought that the v stood for Verrazano.  But what branch? OK, I was thinking that at a certain hour in summer time, there would be a shadow cast over the arm.  Let's simplify and go with the P and V theory. So there must be a clock in the pic. That kind of Narrows it down huh? (Couldn't resist)  Images 1,2,3,7,11, and 12 have definite hours shown in clocks.  I think we have no choice but to go with #12 on this one.  22 east steps, or 22 steps east?  Is there a play on words there?  I think either way, it means go east 22 steps.  Do we go 22 steps east from the Fort Hamilton sign, or from the arm that extends?  Gotta find the sign.  From that, we may find the arm in the shadow, and then determine where to step.  If we follow the verse line by line though, we should find the arm first, then the sign and walk off from there.

boogs wrote:: So there must be a clock in the pic. That kind of Narrows it down huh? (Couldn't resist)  Images 1,2,3,7,11, and 12 have definite hours shown in clocks.  I think we have no choice but to go with #12 on this one.  22 east steps, or 22 steps east?  Is there a play on words there?  I think either way, it means go east 22 steps.  Do we go 22 steps east from the Fort Hamilton sign, or from the arm that extends? Each the Ps could be said to be associated with "hours" or "months," 1 through 12. If this V is paired with P12, then yes, we're talking about 22 steps east.

OK.  I'll take your word for it.  I have to admit quite honestly that I've never really bought into that theory as it cannot be proved to have helped in solving Egbert's find.

Jambone wrote:: Just throwing this out there...  could a cannon be the "arm that | Extends over the slender path"? Thinking too much here but... Cannon is a specific refernece to music phrasing, so could be the play on 'Rhapsodic Man' that we are looking for?  (John Paul Jones) Just exploring all avenues...

Looking for a candidate for our 'Isle of B' (to the north) and didn't see one. see link.. hxxp://www.answers.com/topic/geography- ... ork-harbor And, for those not familiar with the area, you really can not see the scrapers of manhatten from this vantage.

Trohn wrote:: Looking for a candidate for our 'Isle of B' (to the north) and didn't see one. Toward the Isle of B. The way that is written, I don't think ( but of course it's possible) that the isle starts with the letter B.  The isle may belong to, or is part of something else.  Like Brooklyn. I only know one Island in Brooklyn, Coney Island.  And the only way you gaze north at it is from Staten Island.  Now Bedloe's Island is in the possessive so the words "OF B" could fit there depending how that line is deciphered, like "It's Bedloe's land".

The New York Archipelago consists of many islands in both the lower and upper bays of the harbor, as well as the East River and the Long Island Sound.( i.e. Rikers Island, Hart's Island, Roosevelt island, etc.)  Some of these islands are very small. Though not exactlly north of the Fort Hamilton Area, Barren Island is near the Rockaway peninsula,is part of Brooklyn,and is close to the area where the casque is thought to be located.   Local lore has it that a pirate treasure is still buried on the island. www.brooklyn.net/neighborhoods/barren_island.html Just food for thought.

Nice find Kato.  I always though Barren was part of Queens NY, but Wiki says it's part of Brooklyn.  Again though, I have a hard time gazing north at any of these locations.  Everything looks to be east of the Verrazano.  Breezy Point is across the Rockaway Inlet and you can gaze north at Barren from there.  But the Indies Native, for now, is restricting us from Breezy and Staten Island. We have to keep talking this through until we close the gap to the casque or, gulp: a total different direction.

Boogie: You are right of course.  Barren Island is probably not the "Isle of B."  And I agree with you that the casque is probably near the Fort Hamilton area, and that the Verazzano Narrows bridge is the "Grey Giant."  My point was that there are many islands in the New York Archipelago, large and small, that bear investigation. Now to work on that pesky Indes native problem.......

Look down And see simple roots Are we to be looking from above?  There are no bike or foot paths on the VNB.  You can't stop your car and look down.  Is there something nearby you can stand on, look down, and see rhapsodic man's soil with simple roots?  Roots as simple as natural grass? Weeds? Find the arm that extends over slender path and Or more-From the middle of one branch-Of the v What if they are one and the same?  An arm of the bridge, and a branch of the bridge.  I have a beautiful spot if this is true. I just cant download an image from live.com...

Let's try this.  Go to local.live.com and get the birds eye view of the Verrazano. Make sure you view it from the east by clicking on      N     icon, clicking the E. W     E S Go to the foot of the bridge on the Brooklyn side and look to the right until you find two ramps. One going onto the Belt parkway north, and the other one just above it coming from the Belt Pkwy south. Zoom in. The ramp (arm or branch) coming from the Belt travels over a slender path. From under the ramp, walk 22 steps east, which would be toward the bottom of your screen, gaze north (or to the right on your screen), and you should be eye level with soil and simple roots, held up by a retaining wall supporting the ramp. edit: Shoot, I may have the direction all backwards. But the gist is still there.(discombobulated)hxxp://maps.google.com/? check this (by all the trees) hxxp://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=k&om= ... 7,0.001521

Nice link... "In the shadow of the grey giant" under the bridge "Find the arm that entends over the slender path" that could be the cement embankment jutting out into the narrows (bay)  It starts back at the grass and extends over the slender walking/biking path that follows the water line This insures  you start at the correct section of the before you take your steps. "the sign nearby" this is directly at the exit/on ramp which has the highway sign - probably indicating Fort Hamilton. "car abound"  (bridge/highway/parking lot) "in the summer you may hear a whirring sound" could be the baseball field in the park  (the official game of summer) all seems promisingly coincidental.

what if, while gazing north, we do not see the actual "Isle of B" but a referrence to it?  A sign, plaque, statue, etc... that way, we wouldnt be limited to finding the B Isle and searching for an area south of it for the casque. Is there a sign saying Barren Island or Bedloe's Island this way...maybe a freeway sign?

fox wrote:: what if, while gazing north, we do not see the actual "Isle of B" but a referrence to it?  A sign, plaque, statue, etc... that way, we wouldnt be limited to finding the B Isle and searching for an area south of it for the casque. Is there a sign saying Barren Island or Bedloe's Island this way...maybe a freeway sign? Bedloe's is actually The Statue of Liberty.  Barrens Island is not really an island.  No landmarks or places of interest.  You can only see everything while on the bridge, so if Bedloe's is the one, you would only have to know it's there.  At this particular area, there are no signs for Lady liberty or Barrens.  There is a sign for Coney Island and is/was for Fort Hamilton.  Looking at a state map, Bedloe's is north, Coney and Barrens is east. edit: You can see Coney from the ground from under the VNB.

I would just like to point out (if this hasen't been said already) "Take twice as many east steps of the hour or more"  We would need to take 22 steps, because the hour in the picture is 11:00.  (or more ) -regulus

Read page 10 on this thread Reggie.  Image12 would seem to be the obvious, but we'll wait and see.  A lot of smart people here have other ideas they may be correct.  We just don't know yet.  Isn't this fun!

Trohn, here's a pic from under the bridge.  You can't see the jetty but it's there below the concrete wall.

mighty slender path..... Thanks for the photo!

Here is Ellis Island.  To the riight of that is Bedloe's (aka Liberty Island).  The thing that bothers me about Bedloe's is that it had many, many names besides Bedloe's.  Why would BP pick that name to disguise it? plus:  From Coney Island hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bnittoli/218672078/ and from the WTC. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/88058079@N00/284932846/ Tell me I'm crazy.  That pic from the towers; In the shadow of the grey giant = tower find the arm that extends over the slender path = Verrazano over the Narrows The Narrows and slender pretty much got me going on this a few days ago.  Did BP want us on the observation deck of the WTC? Man, I'm all over the place.  Can anyone slow me down a bit?

boogieman wrote:: The Narrows and slender pretty much got me going on this a few days ago.  Did BP want us on the observation deck of the WTC? Man, I'm all over the place.  Can anyone slow me down a bit? stick to the link with Hamilton. (and why do the natives still speak of him?) I checked out Paterson and the Great Falls. (a statue of Alex on the overlook) Nothing else panned out there.

Trohn wrote:: stick to the link with Hamilton. (and why do the natives still speak of him?) It fits either way Trohn.  Image 12 has the rectangular shape which many agree looks like one of the towers.  Now in 82', one could have seen the image, thought as we have thought, tower, Statue of liberty face, and went to both.  In 81' & 82', the crown of the Lady was open to the public.  And what would you see there? You have verse10 in your hand! First, you would notice the towers and Manhattan, Ellis Island, and the VNB.  You may have put slender and Narrows together and said "wow".  Now what Indies Native could be connected to the VNB?  So you go to the VN and find Hamilton and after a couple of years you find Q4T and Frishkie's post from page 3 of this thread, or FRSTPRZFA's post from page 2, both from the summer of 2004,  and shazaam! you are at the site.  All this confirmed by FB's post of Hard Word in 3 vols. on page 9.  Now what? edit: the natives still speak of Hamilton in a way because there are many a bank down there called Hamilton's Savings bank.

From FB: page 6 Some time ago "unknown_user" posted what may be the best theories yet for this verse. The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge is situated such that Bedloe's Island (isle of B?) is visible. "Narrows" may be a reference to the slender path. He goes on to say that rhapsodic man's soil may refer to Gershwin Park in Brooklyn. Only problem is, Gershwin Park is very far away from the bridge (bounded by Stanley Ave., Linden Blvd., Van Siclen Ave., and Vermont St.). Can this be taken further? « Reply #38 on: 2004-07-20, 19:43:37 » From unknownuser-page3 Just a couple more thoughts: 1. In the shadow of the grey giant: WTC 2. Find the arm that extends over the slender path: Verrazano-Narrows Bridge 3.  In Summer you'll often hear a whirring sound: Helicopter tours 4. Cars abound-Duh it's a bridge in NYC Middle part is kinda still evading me. 5. In Rhapsodic man's soil- Possibly Gershwin Park in Brooklyn. 6. or gaze north towards the isle of B. - Block Island discovered by Verrazano. Just some thoughts.  Need to figure out the middle about Hard word and Natives. Ok I'm an idiot, so what! lol  Thanks for not calling me one. Unknown_user had it.  If you put yourself in the crown of the Statue of Liberty, you are looking through the eyes of the Lady in image12 and what does she see, both churches we have found.  The one in Brooklyn and the one in Bayonne.  Ellis Island domes if you want.  She sees the grey giant in the form of the twin tower which She is in the shadow of.  She sees the arm extend over the slender path .  Look at the image, the Lady has risen above the water looking out and sees everthing in the NYC harbor.  I'll bet, if you look at the angle of her eyes, she looking right at the VNB.  And that the arch she is in, VNB arch, is actually infront of her.  The map of NJ right behind her, in her hair.  I know no one wants to see that.  But she is off the coast of Jersey, not NY.  Or the backwards NJ on her right shoulder.  You can find the seagull/eagle on Trohns Fort Hamilton monument.  Under the bridge, near the bridge, you are surrounded by cars, boats and bikes with cards in the wheels, whatever. If being in the shadow puts you at the SOL, and bedloe's Island is also part of that same shadow, then I still contend that the ARM and the middle of one branch of the v are the same.

hxxp://www.brooklynpaper.com/html/cyclo ... plays.html (no need to read whole article) They are. Cyclone first baseman Jim Burt is lifting those weights. There is also a whirring sound. It’s pitcher Celso Rondon peddling on the stationary bicycle. Just researching all things Brooklyn and other things and happenned on this article.  I found it interesting that someone who writes for a living uses "whirring" sound to describe a bicycle, albeit a stationary one. Another add on.  What color is the Verrazano?  Not grey.  Blue like image12?  And the twin tower.  Grey.  Like in image12? hxxp://rides.webshots.com/photo/1234235 ... 6713siqKEq Notice in the link above, the way the bridge branches off when you get into Brooklyn? For those of you not convinced, use the link below and read the verse.  Place your cursor on a point of interest. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/88058079@N00/284932846/

boogie, in one of those links the suspension tower reminded me of both the rectangular shape in the window of P12 and the overall shape of the frame of P12. Coincidence?

I think FB's right - the shape of P12 (arch and all) is very similar to the arched hole in bridge's tower.

Do you think BP would have said something after 9/11 if a twin tower was in the pic?  I don't know.

forest_blight wrote:: boogie, in one of those links the suspension tower reminded me of both the rectangular shape in the window of P12 and the overall shape of the frame of P12. Coincidence? I see it FB.  But the shape in the window of pic12 doesn't have a big hole in it, or better yet, you cannot see through it.  But the suspension tower for the bridge, you can drive through it, and see through it.....  It's hard to make this point, but, you can see through it much like our Lady in pic12 can.  Which confirms to me that the arch is the frame and the rectangle in the window of pic12 is a twin tower.  And the Statue of Liberty is in the shadow.  BP wanted us there I'm sure.  The thing I take from the link with the view of the harbor is that there was only one observation deck between the 2 towers.  One rectangle in pic12.  He wanted us there too.  Not too much to ask for your treasure hunters to do.  In the book he said, "if you have fun"  blah blah blah(don't have my book) "you will find it". Jambone, see what I mean? BTW, I think BP had given up on the hunt long before 9/11. Hey trohn, you're kind of local.  Dig in here!

NYC subway cars from 70s and 80s.  Notice the colors? hxxp://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26544

happy new year everyone!!! just thought i'd jump in and say the old guy is happy to see you guys (and gals) may think there is a connection between the pics, verses, and the rest of the book... like tying the pics with the verses through the landing of the different races (folletti, etc) with their stones and last known locations. hey, thats what i tried to convey months ago when nobody would listen. oh yeah... i'm back!  ...just havin fun!

Happy New Year and Welcome Back!  Just realize one thing Adoks, it isn't that nobody is listening, it's just that nobody is listenening.  Keep plugging until someone hears you.  Anything you type will be read over and over even when no one hears you.  But someone will , sooner or later. Ok, back to the verse.  Can someone come up with some solid reasoning for my wanting to make WEST STEPS for what is written; Take twice as many EAST steps as the hour . Easterly winds go out to the west right?  Here's why I need to go west.  My friend Kathy from the Brooklyn weddings, she tells me that the entrance to FT Hamilton is under the Verrazano just where the road splits (or branches).  Can not see it from the birds eye view link.  From what she tells me, there are no other signs, except for the Ft Hamilton Parkway, nearby.  There is a guards gate at the entrance, so to go east, is to go east 22 steps into the complex, where there's NO DIGGING!  If you go west 22 steps, you get real close to John Paul Jones Park. Just hoping that the way BP worded that line, with east steps instead of steps east , I could kind of twist it so it fits into my little twisted mind!!!!!

afraid I cant explain why BP would say East and mean West.  I do like the location tho....  here are some nice pix of the area. hxxp://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigm ... /index.htm

also found this webpage which may come in handy since this V is possibly linked w/ NY. hxxp://gis.nyc.gov/parks/lc/NavigateTo. ... NEW_SEARCH you can enter in any park name and it will map it for you....just the basic map, nothing google earth like, but it gives surrounding street names (which seem to have been included in some of the puzzles) as well as the location of any memorials, statues, etc...

fox wrote:: also found this webpage which may come in handy since this V is possibly linked w/ NY. you can enter in any park name and it will map it for you....just the basic map, nothing google earth like, but it gives surrounding street names (which seem to have been included in some of the puzzles) as well as the location of any memorials, statues, etc... Really great pics.  I will see you there this summer Fox!  Did you know that this park used to be called Cannon Ball Park? I'll say this, I'd hate to move from the slender path-Narrows and the grey giant-WTC idea, but that monument in JPJ Park looks like it could be a grey giant.  How would the verse get you to that though?

that is a good question...how indeed? Just like I have been saying lately for the Roanoke P...we need to find something from the P that is physically at the site...

My interpretation so far(open to debate) Verse 10 In the shadow---------------------------------- Statue of Liberty Of the grey giant------------------------------ Twin Tower #2 (observation deck) Find the arm that------------------------------ Verrazano Extends over the slender path------------- Narrows Inlet In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound Although the sign------------------------------ Ft Hamilton Nearby--------------------------------------------- Close to casque Speaks of Indies native----------------------- Alexander Hamilton ($10 bill?) The natives still speak------------------------- West Indies-Hamilton Savings Bank Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.-------------- Hamilton "works" 1798 Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v-------------------------------------------- Verrazano Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil------------------------- John Paul Jones (Led Zeppelin) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B.--------------------------- Bedloe's (Liberty Island) Anyone have an older ten dollar bill to examine? I'm editing this after REPLY #183

Boggie- I thought that this connection had already been made..... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paul_Jones_(musician ) Seems like another solid confirmer. (and nothing too obvious)

Check out the plaque in the last photo of this link... hxxp://www.crystalinks.com/memorialday.html

Trohn wrote:: Boggie- I thought that this connection had already been made..... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paul_Jones_(musician) Seems like another solid confirmer. (and nothing too obvious) I'd love for this to be true.  I had mentioned JPJ Park a year ago, or more, but have yet to see any confirmers.  Help me see the light Trohn.  What confirmer? edit: Let me complete the thought.  John Paul Jones(John Baldwin) from Led Zepplin fame is rhapsodic man.  The park was named for the guy who many say "is the father of the US Navy", John Paul Jones (1747-1792).  But if you look down from the bridge, you see JPJ Park, with simple roots. In John Paul Jones Park soil?  There's the tie in?  You may have something here Trohn.  (see Adoks, got to listen) Note: In 1969, they changed the name from Cannon Ball Park, to John Paul jones park Coincidentally, John Baldwin changed his name to John Paul Jones that same year.

Wow, boogs, sounds like you may be homing in on it! And without any help from the P as well. Look for geographic and local tie-ins to P12.

Thanks for the encouragement FB.  And thanks to trohn for the music man.  As far as P12 goes, I've been walking around with a 10x8 full color print-out of the image for 3 years.  I should have deciphered something by now.  Lady Liberty, Tower 2, and the #74 are the only confirmers I can see.  Maybe the JPJ Park will show something else.  I don't know.

Boogie Man/ Forest : (1)  It makes sense that one of the casques would be in Brooklyn (where he lived) (2) It makes sense that he knows Brooklyn very well and probably has been holding on to the knowledge that one of Led Zepplin was the Father of the American navy (3)  From previous casque searches, we know how hard it is to bury/retrieve from a National Park area (Fort Hamilton) (4)  So.... we have Rhapsodic man ....    we have in the sahdows ... we have the Grey Giant ..  and I was considering that where in the park was dinsitictive enough to take steps off of... Then I saw the photo of the rock with the plaque... "The first place in the New York to repell the Bristish Arms" Arms--->Army Firepower--->Guns and Bullets there fore.... 'The arm that extends over the slender path' would be a single cannon (in 'Cannon Ball Park') Find the correct cannon to start at, you can fllow the verse to the casque.

Back to local.live.com!!!!! hey, look what we have in brooklyn at JPJ Park... Benches!  Couldn't resist. Whoa.  There's the gate to FT Hamilton to the right.  I wonder what is dead center..... I can smell it baby!!!!!

Nice nice nice.... really like where this is heading....especially since I too will be heading that way...but apparently, I may be several months too late .  Just kidding...if you feel it boogie, dig it up.  Just promise to give me the grand tour in July.

fox wrote:: Nice nice nice.... really like where this is heading....especially since I too will be heading that way...but apparently, I may be several months too late .  Just kidding...if you feel it boogie, dig it up.  Just promise to give me the grand tour in July. C'mon, if this was for a million bucks, I would have stopped talking to you all.  I'm loyal to the hunt and to the reason we're all doing this. I'll wait.  I just hope we can nail it by the summer!!!

Boogie- see if you can post a good picture of St Micael Roman Catholic in Sunset park.... (do not know if you can see it from the V) edit:  Forget that.... 42nd and 4th.  Way too far away even if the towers rising high in the air.

FWIW, I found these pics of John Paul Jones Park in NY.  I found the first pic below at flickr and the second one at webshots:

Does anyone know if there are any ventilator fans and airshafts or ventilation buildings in or around John Paul Jones Park or the Fort Hamilton area?  These would specifically be the kind that draw in fresh air and suck out exhaust air from underground tunnels( used at both the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels) or perhaps nearby subway tunnels.  If so, they might account for the "whirring" sound described in V 10.  This would  espically be so if you read the line, "You'll often hear a whirring sound." as a single sentence.  That would imply that you hear the "whirring" sound every day, rather than just in summer.  As in "In summer, You'll often hear a whirring sound".

boogieman wrote:: Happy New Year and Welcome Back!  Just realize one thing Adoks, it isn't that nobody is listening, it's just that nobody is listenening.  Keep plugging until someone hears you.  Anything you type will be read over and over even when no one hears you.  But someone will , sooner or later. Ok, back to the verse.  Can someone come up with some solid reasoning for my wanting to make WEST STEPS for what is written; Take twice as many EAST steps as the hour . Easterly winds go out to the west right?  Here's why I need to go west.  My friend Kathy from the Brooklyn weddings, she tells me that the entrance to FT Hamilton is under the Verrazano just where the road splits (or branches).  Can not see it from the birds eye view link.  From what she tells me, there are no other signs, except for the Ft Hamilton Parkway, nearby.  There is a guards gate at the entrance, so to go east, is to go east 22 steps into the complex, where there's NO DIGGING!  If you go west 22 steps, you get real close to John Paul Jones Park. Just hoping that the way BP worded that line, with east steps instead of steps east , I could kind of twist it so it fits into my little twisted mind!!!!! Now we know the answer. "take twice as many east steps as the hour" take the steps east from the arm ( cannon) "or more from the middle of one branch, of the v" take more than twice  as many from the Verrazano (not necessarily east) The burial place is between the cannon and the bridge (or the branch of the v) Or the between the cannon and the middle of the large concrete bridge support.

A final nail in this location... if you would induldge. hxxp://www.fotosearch.com/DVA001/001-0774/ The cannon installed in the park around 1900 is a specific type:  a parrot cannon. Or this one from somewhere.... hxxp://www.fotosearch.com/AGE054/l33-296840/ Maybe someone can do a super imposition on the image 12 thread.

boogieman wrote:: Verse 10 In the shadow---------------------------------- Statue of Liberty Of the grey giant------------------------------ Twin Tower #2 (observation deck) Two different thoughts just for the sake of argument... (1) Could both of these lines mean "in an area near the Statue of Liberty"?  I like the way this works with "giant" being in the form of a person.  (2) Could the grey giant be the large obelisk in John Paul Jones Park?

Could be. Simply the word "giant" could put us in NYC (as in New York Giants ). So it could be a statue of any New Yorker. Or it could be a play on words. A riddle writer might use "grey giant" as a misleading play on words, like substituting "compass" for a particular lighthouse with a suggestive name.

Ooh, I like the NY Giants idea (not the NY Giants themselves, however ).

The Grey Giant could mean NYC itself.

If anyone ever gets the chance, a dinner cruise out of Perth Amboy NJ is the best way to see the harbor in NYC.  Fox, I'll set it up for you.  If you took this cruise, you would see that Lady Liberty is in the shadow of what used to be tower 2, and the Verrazano is the arm that extends over the Narrows.  The ship goes under the V, around Liberty island and up the east river.  If you book it on the 4th of July, it anchors by the statue and and you'll see the greatest fire works show ever.

I took this boat for five years as my commute to work: hxxp://www.seastreakusa.com Same as the circle line tours except from different ports.

Trying to force an image of the bridge here.  Driving home from work, I could see the bridge in the distance and was certain I would find it in the water when I got home.  Disappointment!  Can anyone else make it out? Still think that's a BD in the lower right side. (crest of wave) Brooklyn Dodgers maybe....

In the middle of this image is an X shape almost resembling some kind of knotwork or weaving.

LOL. Found a way to twist east to west.  Laugh if you will! Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more The beginning of the verse gets you to the bridge. Once there, you read this section above. You are taking twice as many east steps from the X spot to the Fort gate.(where I hope there is a sign) So, you're at the gate just under one branch of the v. Or more , if you were on top of the bridge, you would Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil (JPJ Park) Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. But you are under it, so reverse the 22 steps and go west from the gate. And at the edge of the park, you should see whatever that thing was that was in the center of the pic I posted. (where those benches were.) Trohn, I have a hard time using the cannon to be the arm that extends. How would the verse get you to the cannon if it didn't first get you to the bridge? Better yet, how would the verse get you to the bridge if the cannon was the arm? Another thought, maybe BP was sitting on these benches in N.C. and Brooklyn while pondering these verses.......Any benches from Chicago and Cleveland? Duh! They are parks.

Sorry trohn, you say the bridge is the grey giant, and that's how you get to the cannon. I'm easily confused. LOL I will dig into that theory, honestly.  But first you've got to find something in an image that would show a bridge.  it doesn't have to be P12.  I'll take anything.  But P12 does have a grey giant, and a place in it's shadow where you can see an arm extending over the slender path. Forgive me for rambling on about this but it's the only way I can figure to keep it fresh.  And this thread doesn't end so i can keep going on and on and on and on.

boogieman wrote:: Forgive me for rambling on about this but it's the only way I can figure to keep it fresh.  And this thread doesn't end so i can keep going on and on and on and on. watch out.. here comes the boogieman

Trohn wrote:: Boogie Man/ Forest : (1)  It makes sense that one of the casques would be in Brooklyn (where he lived) ( so true.  now, how about a bigger stretch to chew on?  If BP did indeed choose John Paul Jones park...could it have been for reasons other than just liking the park?  Move Mr. Jones' middle name to his last and gaze at the initials.

JJP....There is no signature on P12, is there?  Don't have my book back yet, anyone know who painted this one?  How funny would that be if JJP signed it JPJ as a clue.

Can we confirm this at the very least?

I lack the knowledge to post the above picture side-by-side with Lady Liberty, but can someone do so?

Check it above now johann.  I edited my last post. I flipped the real pic to make the face turned the same way as P12. If I flip it back, and turn the P12 face to match, look at the shadow under the noses!

I still think it doesnt come more exact than that.  That is our Lady Liberty.  I also still think this is an exact match as well..... I know, I know.  Forget about the body...the head is exact.  Maybe the body leads us elsewhere.....

fox wrote:: I know, I know.  Forget about the body...the head is exact.  Maybe the body leads us elsewhere..... If that is the Chrysler Building, then how could the casque be in Brooklyn? That building is in mid-town. It could be that it is just pointing us to NY.  But why, we have NY already, no? Same thing with the Ellis eagle which has the exact face too, although it's closer to Brooklyn. I think the only sure thing is that it is definitely an eagle.  There's alot in the wings. The American Eagle and the Statue of Liberty......NY.......

Thanks, Boogieman.  It is a close match.  I was in Chicago recently, and I went to the casque site.  The image for that treasure also features statuary.

From Catherwoods Post at Image2; I wonder if a good decoding of Verse 10 could still apply to a different image.  I still think of the images as merely a general locator clue, pointing to a city.  (Any use of longitude and latitude from the images is NOT a GPS pinpoint location, but more like pointing your finger at a spot on a globe.)  I'm confident that the location of the gem in each painting was selected for artistic balance and not as a signpost to a particular dig site.  Could a verse alone be enough to deduce a city AND lead to a dig site?  That seems more likely.  (It's what I did with the verse for Houston, using the train number alone to search for the city.) I am willing to move this discussion over to the Verse 10 thread, rather than debate the use of Image 2 for shecrab's ideas . I like your ideas on the verses.  I believe Egbert's dig site was first located by the verse and the images at the gardens sealed it for him. Don't mean to speak for you Eg, just my opinion.  That is why I would like to see Shecrab's decoding and compare it to slender path and the Narrows and the grey giant in NY.  I mean, geez... can a verse really fit in two locations? Maybe it can!

... and I STILL like my pg.90 image for the arm that extends over the slender path idea... the shadow of the grey giant being nyc itself casting it's shadow over n.j.

Still dont have my book back yet.  love too see that pg 90 pic.  If you are right, I would love to see the arm become the Bayonne Bridge.  Would make that church (P12 thread, bout a year ago) fit nicely with it.

... this is part of my theory that...yes, the P's and V's are all you need to solve the puzzle, BUT... the rest of the book is what matches the P's and V's up properly! (read: without guessing... I cant beleive such a diabolically ingeneous puzzle could be created with so much stuff and layers only to have you randomly guess at the pairings.) The pic on pg. 90 shows the STYLUS DEVIL about to attack a tone arm playing on a record (remember those!)?, which I beleive refers to the line "FIND THE ARM THAT EXTENDS OVER THE SLENDER PATH" in V-10. As we old folk know, a record has lots of songs, but only one slender path for the needle to follow, which is what started my N.J. theme for this one. And speaking of music, just why are the tops of the fence on the opening page musical notes, along with the note on the flower on P-9, and mentioned in the closing blurb after P-12 "to sing a happy treasure song" to have a casque to you belong... could it be a key phrase to cipher people like in a gronsfeld or something?! Just spouting, Pondering, and havin fun...

Pretty darn good analogy adoks.  Needle and record thing.... I may not buy into it yet, but the ideas are excellent. I hope to get out to Brooklyn soon and confirm JPJ Park.  Let's face it, every idea, they are all long shots.

boogieman wrote:: Pretty darn good analogy adoks.  Needle and record thing.... I may not buy into it yet, but the ideas are excellent. I hope to get out to Brooklyn soon and confirm JPJ Park.  Let's face it, every idea, they are all long shots. They were all there somewhere once. hxxp://gis.nyc.gov/parks/lc/NYCParkMapI ... F92CAA0BE8 Could he have used the 'v' to make us think about the Led Zepplin albums? (it was 1981 after all)

take a look at this article on Bay Ridge Brooklyn, and note the common blurb of Cannon Ball - John Paul Jones park. hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... ridge.html Could the 'v' we need to pace from be the FIVE cannon balls at the front of the Parrot Cannon (I am interpretting arm to mean 'a single cannn')

Hard to follow.  How do you make a  v  out of a row of cannon balls?  And are you referring to the cannon as the arm that extends ?

boogieman wrote:: Hard to follow.  How do you make a  v  out of a row of cannon balls?  And are you referring to the cannon as the arm that extends ? V meaning the five of them. Yes, I am thinking that the Cannon is the arm (from the meaning of arms or ariment) Is it a locked in solve, no, but it is an interpretation of the area.

I like (however I am by no means saying it is 100% correct) Trohn's idea of V = roman numeral 5.  This is the kind of thing BP would use...

I like it also, but I have two problems with it.  First, the way the  v  is written in the verse, it's a lower case letter.  Roman Numeral V is an upper case letter.  just look at any clock.  Plus, how do you find a branch in a row of cannon balls.  Second, you would have to have the Verrazano as the grey giant and then the cannon.  It very well may be, I just happen to think that in order to find the slender path , you would more likely find it the way I found it.  Well, I didn't find it, but the light went off when I put myself on top of the WTC and the crown of Lady liberty and saw the slender path. I still like your ideas Trohn, and I'll consider them when I get to JPJ Park. edit;  I'm laughing about the Led Zeppelin albums.  Remember the label?  A month ago I was driving home from work one day and looking at Lady Liberty from her back, and started thinking there was an angel on Zeppelin's record label.  I sped home to check, turns out it's a dude with wings, and more like the devil.  The label was called Swan Song. (Just a note to shecrab-If we were all worried about being embarrassed, there wouldn't be any posts. I hope u can forget about it.)

boogieman wrote:: I still like your ideas Trohn, and I'll consider them when I get to JPJ Park. (Just a note to shecrab-If we were all worried about being embarrassed, there wouldn't be any posts. I hope u can forget about it.) They are only ideas until the casques are unearthed. Another random thought in looking at the Parrot Cannon Photo (from the Bay Ridge page) would there always (anytime during the day - not at night) be a shadow formed under neath the barrel?  So would a constant shadow be cast on the slender path bwteen the front of the cannon and the line of five cannon balls???? - Find the arm that extends over the slender path The Head of the cannon (one armiment) extends over the slender path (the path being the grasy strip between the concrete base of the cannon and the concrete base of the line of the cannon balls) Thoughts to consider- 'The grey giant' and 'the arm that extends'  are two different objects within close proximty to each other. to be resolved: - why summer -  why whirring -  why hour -  specifically what branch?

More than five cannon balls in front of the cannon. hxxp://www.crystalinks.com/cannonballpark.html

More photos of the cannon and Bay Ridge. hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/forgottentour20/tour20.html As a bonus for this page, there is a photo of a "distinctive sandstone clock tower" erected in the late 1800's. haven't matched it with the image yet. edit:  Nope, not the same and not close.

Trohn wrote:: More than five cannon balls in front of the cannon. I saw that.  look at these. (OK, you just posted again while I'm doing this.  I'll put them up anyway) For arguments sake, there isn't any path that the cannon extends over.  The extention would have to be a fired cannon ball that flies over the Narrows.  To which, the ball never reaches the other side.  So the arm (cannon) only extends into the slender path. I think the simple roots has to be the stopper here.

Getting ready to scout the Brooklyn area. Whirring sound, east steps, simple roots .... They still bother me ALOT.  I like the gaze north with the gazebos.  Very big coincidence going on with the Roanoke verse and this one.  Both suspected locations having them in sight plus being in the verses.  Very nice. Shecrab, I'd like to know (without giving your site away) what kind of thoughts you have concerning the things in this verse that bother me.  At least the whirring sound and the simple roots.  I'm thinking a circular motion of some sort makes the sound.  And weeds or grass being the roots.  At this point, I don't need to know your location, just how you would fit these things into your Canada site, to maybe open things up for me.  What say you?

I guess I can let a little of this out without giving it away. My 'solution' leads to two distinct locations. This is one of the reasons i did not want to publish it yet--not until I had a chance to scout the area and see which was more viable, if either was. I am using the verse very "tightly" and quite extensively. I noticed that a lot of the verses are used partially, or cannot be fitted to the locations 100%--I tried to do that, to remove as much doubt as possible, without forcing. In my locations, the whirring sounds can refer to one of two things: helicopters, which fly there, only in summer, and a special sort of "vehicle" that also runs there in summertime, an object particular to the area, and which is suggested by the pattern on the butterfly wings on the fairy. I have not heard this vehicle--I can only assume it makes a whirring noise by the way it looks and what it is--it would make sense that that was the sound it made. I know helicopters whir--so if the vehicle isn't the answer, the helicopters are. There is one other possibility, more remote--a plant nearby (factory--not vegetation) which might make the sound as well. Simple roots: that one was easier. I found both the simple roots of my main "path," and also a metaphoric interpretation of this phrase: ancestors . Roots=ancestors. Simple roots. One of my locations is very literally a place where these roots would be found, the other is more the history speaking through the place. There are plenty of ancestral connections. Add to this the fact that Alex Hailey's book, Roots, is about his African ancestors, (and the image depicts African themes) and the connection seemed more solid to me than plant roots or tree roots. Don't forget, this line leads to the next: simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil ....rhapsodic has a particular meaning here. I have no gazebos. Gaze means just that--look north. The "isle of B" is north of my locations. Does this help? ck

Hey thanks!  The roots thing is very nice.  One option I have never concidered. Don't know if it helps, but it gives me a little more to think about. Time will tell.  Thanx again.

A thought just occurred to me while reading this verse. Take twice as many east steps as the hour is clearly a reference to the 1-12 number in whatever P is paired with this V. But using the word hour may limit us to using a P that has a clock face painted explicitly on it. Those include 1, 2, 3, 7, and 12. If we accept 1, 2, 3, and 7 as San Francisco, Charleston, Roanoke, and New Orleans (respectively) and we believe we know what V's are paired with 1 and 3, then that means 2, 7, or 12 must be the P for this V. P12 was our top choice for NYC anyway, but maybe this strengthens the evidence for linking V10 with P12? If P12 is the correct pairing, then Take twice as many east steps as the hour would indicate 22 steps. On the other hand, if V10 goes with Charleston, it would indicate 8 steps. If New Orleans, then 24. For the lines From the middle of one branch / Of the v , we are looking for something with a "V" shape, and we can deduce two characteristics of this "V." First, it must be large enough so that the question "where along this 'V' should I be standing?" is a reasonable question to ask, and "middle" is a reasonable answer. So whatever it is, it's big. Second, it is likely a prostrate "V" rather than an upright one, as branches of prostrate V-shaped things have well-defined middles. Let's hope it is a "V" that is visible from satellite photos. If Boogie's fishing reel theory is correct, and we are supposed to be gazing north at an isle, that means we must be very near the water's edge. So this "V" is between 8 and 24 paces from the water, likely west of it.

Unknown: For the lines From the middle of one branch / Of the v , we are looking for something with a "V" shape, and we can deduce two characteristics of this "V." First, it must be large enough so that the question "where along this 'V' should I be standing?" is a reasonable question to ask, and "middle" is a reasonable answer. So whatever it is, it's big. Second, it is likely a prostrate "V" rather than an upright one, as branches of prostrate V-shaped things have well-defined middles. Let's hope it is a "V" that is visible from satellite photos. If Boogie's fishing reel theory is correct, and we are supposed to be gazing north at an isle, that means we must be very near the water's edge. So this "V" is between 8 and 24 paces from the water, likely west of it. From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down This doesn't necessarily mean you need to be standing on the V. You might be suspended OVER it. On a bridge for instance......There are other possibilities than standing on the ground. c

To be sure, but the casque is likely to be buried underground, hence the starting and stopping point of steps are both likely to be on the ground rather than on a bridge, especially given that their proximity to each other is no more than 8 yards (24 steps). Rather than standing on the "V," I was rather picturing standiing beside it, as one might stand beside the wall of a V-shaped building, memorial, terrace, etc. But of course we don't know either way. I believe that BP loved his riddles, but then again, V4 turned out to be rather literal in its interpretation. Could he mean a literal "V" somewhere? Like part of a gigantic inscription in a wall with a 6-foot "V" as part of it? On the other hand, in V12 he used the single letters M, B, R, and L as first-letter abbreviations for Mozart, Beethoven, Roosevelt (?), and Lincoln. These were capital letters and our "V" is lowercase, but maybe he just means something starting with V.

The 80 meter inverted vee is a common and classic antenna. Like a very LARGE antenna. So what about one of those electrical pylons....that look like a giant V? c

I think Trohn mentioned this a while back that this concrete wall is shaped like an up-side-down v. Can we incorporate this into the verse? middle of one branch ? I wonder, and I'll see when I get there, if 22 steps puts you at the center of it.  If the top part is the one branch, then the base would be the same.(almost) Edit: Looking up tree names that start with a V, Why? I don't know.  Only one. Virburnum plum leaf . Maybe in the middle of one branch of this tree, if there is such a tree in JPJ Park.....

Tough location to find exactly one spot to dig. (and tough verse) Enjoy the spring now that it is finally here.

Here's my interpretation: In the shadow of the grey giant In the shadow of the WTC, you'll find yourself at Lady liberty. Find the arm that extends over the slender path This is the key to the Verse.  The Verrazano extends over the Narrows Inlet . In summer, you'll often hear a whirring sound Fishing reels.  You'll find them right now and all summer fishing. Cars abound They are literally running all around you.  Even above you on the bridge. And there is a rail yard close to Ft Hamilton FB. Check the satellite. Although the sign nearby speaks of Indies Native This line puts you on the Brooklyn side of the bridge where Ft Hamilton is. I will find the sign and photo it.  I don't think the sign will be in Staten Island but I will make sure. The natives still speak of him Of hard word in 3 vols . Me and FB found Hamilton's Works, written in three volumes. The words HARD WORD are italicized throughout the papers.  Coincidence? Today, there are still many banks in the Indies named after Hamilton. Up until the late 80's, there were many banks in Brooklyn too. Take twice as many east steps as the hour or More, from the middle of one branch of the v This will have to be figured at the site. Look down and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil or gaze north, towards the Isle of B. Rhapsodic man-  John Paul Jones of Led Zeppelin. simple roots in John Paul Jones Park (aka-Cannonball Park)

And don't forget to add that BP lived in Brooklyn so anything escoteric for this site should be given poetic license. The thing that bothers me about the verse is "or more" why is that there and how does it pin point a specifc spot. When you do there, tell us how many steps from the bridge support to the "rock" there are? The "rock" mentions the arms of fort hamilton fighting off the british.

The "rock" wasn't part of my thought process, but I'll sure look at it.  Where is it?

boogieman wrote:: The "rock" wasn't part of my thought process, but I'll sure look at it.  Where is it? Its there.... one of the war monuments. It makes me believe why he selected the term "arm" Also, in looking at the verse and its formation in relation to St Augustine, I see in the middle the words using the first letters going down "C A N S T O T O" Don't know if it means squat.  But its there.

I think boogieman interpretted the "V" as Verrazano Bridge itself.  Also, check out the pic of the park boogie posted w/ the bridge behind it....  those sets of supporting beams sure look like giant V's to me.  Can we stand directly below the bridge to either start the path or actually dig?

The problem with that theory is that there is no one place that could be called the middle of one branch of the v .

What I am going to do, is find the sign first, or where it used to be in 81' or 82'. I'm going to take 22 east steps from there.  Or more, see if it takes me to the middle of one branch of the v, and if it does, I'm going to look for simple roots, looking down, then gazing north, probably in line with the gazebo, towards the Isle of B, and still be in JPJ Park. And then, of course, follow any other suggestions that can take us there.

boogs - read the verse again. One is expected to take steps starting at the v and ending where X marks the spot. The sign could be anywhere in the general vicinity. You could go about this in two ways: (1) Find something V-like, walk east, and look down, look around for a sign in the vicinity; or (2) Find a sign that says "Hamilton" on it, then look in the general vicinity for something V-like, walk east from it, and look down.

I see what you mean and now I understand why you said there isn't a middle or a branch of the wall. So the sign may just put us on the Brooklyn side.  It's the v and the east steps that get us to simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil. Looking down must be at something that says "JPJ" on the ground . "In 1980, John Paul Jones Park acquired its most recent monument the 70 foot tall flag pole that once belonged to a Navy destroyer. At the base lies a plaque, which reads “in honor of John Paul Jones, the father of the Navy.” This quote was taken from the last paragraph of this link: hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11908 But where is the v?  If the X is at the base of the flagpole, then the v must be 22 west steps away. hxxp://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2& ... &encType=1 Is the park layout the same as the water in P12?  And can someone turn that tall monument into a v and 22 steps away?  Look at the shadow of the pole.

Just throwing this out there because I am sure someone else will... In Navy (one branch of the military) is a small 'v'. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v

Trohn wrote:: In Navy (one branch of the military) is a small 'v'. OK. But what are you getting at? JPJ Park used to be Cannonball Park.  Since it has changed, the only thing there that represents our possible rhapsodic man is that flagpole.  And the plaque is at the base of the flagpole buried in the soil.  But the v? the v? If that tree just to the west of the pole is a virburnum plum leaf, what branch?

boogieman wrote:: OK. But what are you getting at? JPJ Park used to be Cannonball Park.  Since it has changed, the only thing there that represents our possible rhapsodic man is that flagpole.  And the plaque is at the base of the flagpole buried in the soil.  But the v? the v? If that tree just to the west of the pole is a virburnum plum leaf, what branch? John Paul Jones is the father of the American Navy. What if the v is not for Verrazzano?  If the slender path and the indies native gets you to the Brooklyn side of the narrows and Fort Hamilton Blvd.... well... to be sure that BP is not being redundant, lets find another use of the next lines.... Take the steps from where...? "From the middle of one branch"  The middle of one branch of the arms forces could literally be NA V[b] [/b]Y. As you indicated, the father of the American navy is only referenced at one spot in this park. And of cource, the rhapsodic man's soil, reconfirms the park and the short grass.

Trohn - I don't get why you think 'v' refers to Navy. Plenty of words have v's in them. Why 'v' and not 'a' or 'y'? What does it mean for the Navy to have a branch??

forest_blight wrote:: Trohn - I don't get why you think 'v' refers to Navy. Plenty of words have v's in them. Why 'v' and not 'a' or 'y'? What does it mean for the Navy to have a branch?? The four branches of the arms services:  Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. Yes, plenty of words have 'v' in them.... This explanation would reason why the 'v' is specifically lower case in the clue.

forest_blight wrote:: Trohn - I don't get why you think 'v' refers to Navy. Plenty of words have v's in them. Why 'v' and not 'a' or 'y'? What does it mean for the Navy to have a branch?? The only 'branch' of the Navy is the Marine Corps. They are the only one that could legitimately be called a branch, being a part of the Department of the Navy, but also a separate service. ck

no no no... Trohn is correct.  The naVy is one of the 4 major Branches of the armed forces.  I think Trohn is trying to say that the plaque itself "father of the na V y" is our V.  Step from the plaque.  It may not be correct but it is an intriguing idea. I also like the idea of shadows of things (V supports of bridge, large flagpole, etc) except that shadows move...they are not in the same place each day at a given time.....only at the same spot every year.  Do we need to know an exact date to find our shadow...?...highly unlikely. arghhhhh...where is our V?

Wish I knew! In the movie "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World" (1963) the treasure is buried at a big "W" - which turns out to be four palm trees that form a "W" in a park. Was BP a movie buff?

fox wrote:: no no no... Trohn is correct. It is amazing how some people come around Yes, it may not be correct, but it is an inetersting idea.

By referring to the shadow of the flagpole, I was pointing out that the tall monument and the pole itself could be concidered east and west.  Steps.

hxxp://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2& ... &encType=1 FB, are you trying to say something here?  "W" and "v"? Go to the link above.  On the left, you'll see the weather vane type direction key with the arrow. Click on the N for north.  This will give you a view from the south.  The trees make the shape of a v with the flagpole in the middle of one branch of it.  I like that a little better than NAvY.  It seems that you wouldn't be able to bury something at the foot of a plaque either.  So take twice as many east steps from the flagpole. Take twice as many east steps as the hour = 22 steps.  The X spot. (pic still open for debate-slightly) The next lines of the verse descibes the starting point- and how to recognize it or more, from the middle of one branch of the v =the v is the trees and the branch is the side with the flagpole situated in the middle of the one row.  Take the east steps from there, after first.... Looking down, and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil = the JPJ plaque at base of pole.  Now what about the next two lines? or gaze north, towards the isle of B. = for now, still only assuming, after getting to the 22 step X spot, face north towards Bedloe's Island.  Can't see the spot east of the pole to well from the satellite.  Must take pics from there. If this ain't the place, we sure squeezed it in there pretty darned good.

Where did you say that giant W was FB? boogie...another thought (as if we need more)..looking at your link, especially the small map section, we have V's everywhere...and one giant one staring us in the face... 4th Ave.  Could our V be a street intersection or path intersection?

At this location, the SHADOW is only the bridge. The overpass is always bathed in darkness, at any time of the day or year.

fox wrote:: Where did you say that giant W was FB?   :P boogie...another thought (as if we need more)..looking at your link, especially the small map section, we have V's everywhere...and one giant one staring us in the face... 4th Ave.  Could our V be a street intersection or path intersection? Fox, you look great!!! Back to the hunt:  Good ideas Fox, but where would you be if you stepped east from that corner? Or gaze north towards the isle of B. = Could just mean that in order to read the plaque from the right direction, you must be facing north.  Start the steps from there.

Trohn wrote:: At this location, the SHADOW is only the bridge. The overpass is always bathed in darkness, at any time of the day or year. The way I'm trying to interpret the verse is that the Shadow is the entire NYC Harbor.  In the shadow is the Narrows Inlet.  The arm is the bridge.  The shadow from the pole was meant only to reference east to west. I'm also trying to say that if the plaque is the only reference to JPJ, that this must be what you find in the middle of one branch of the v in rhapsodic man's soil.

I agree.

Here is the plaque at JPJ Park. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/common_image ... s/390.jpeg

About the name change: Bound by Shore Road, Fourth Avenue, 101st Street, and Fort Hamilton Parkway, the City of Brooklyn acquired the property comprising this park between 1895 and 1897 as part of the proceedings for the construction of Shore Road, and transferred it directly to Parks. The United States Military presented the Civil War Memorial in 1900. The massive, black, 20” bore, Parrott cannon, founded in 1864, originally stood in Fort Pitt, Pennsylvania. Today it and the surrounding cannon balls dominate the landscape. The Revolutionary War Memorial consists of a bronze tablet on a granite boulder that Parks received, in 1916 , from the Long Island Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution. In 1931, Parks received The Dover Patrol Naval War Memorial. The granite shaft by Sir Ashton Webb was a gift from England after World War I. These tributes to United States military history ushered in the 1969 name change to John Paul Jones Park. In 1980, John Paul Jones Park acquired its most recent monument the 70 foot tall flag pole that once belonged to a Navy destroyer . At the base lies a plaque, which reads “in honor of John Paul Jones, the father of the Navy.”

Boy, are we getting an edumacation on American History here or what?  Thanks BP!  Very cool. So much for the Russian theme.  I'd like to believe all the theme theories, and if they are correct, we can throw all this JPJ Park stuff in the garbage. The Brits are all over this verse. I find it funny that the flagpole was put there in 1980.  Look down and see rhapsodic man in the ground.  And again, I'd like to also believe that the cannon has something to do with this, but I cannot reason it into this.  I know you like the cannon Trohn, how can you make it work?

An interesting note about Fort Hamilton, it is where Stone Wall Jackson was deployed. (think verse seven - linkage) As with St Augustine, poking around the Park is goiing to help this solve.  I still want to get a hadle on the blue domes and the colored rocks.

Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. I'm going to just ask questions here to sound this out. These last two lines?  Now, they have nothing to do with the gazebo.  Just suppose we found the v, lets say, and in the middle we found the rhapsodic man in the soil, the plaque.  Does simple roots have a new meaning now?  Maybe the inscription telling about JPJ and the flagpole are just simply put .  Are we to take 22 EAST steps from the plaque?  WHY EAST AND THEN LOOK NORTH?  Assuming that the Isle of B is Bedloe's, I'm guessing that we are to be facing north while putting the shovel in the ground.  And if that is the case, it sounds that there should be something that we should be digging up against.  What does OR mean, or gaze north?  Where does it fit?

Why is it that just North East of JJP, across 101st street in the court yards of some apartments are three gardens desgined as clock faces????? I think GAZE is used to point to the gazebo.  (gazebo north of dig site) Simple Roots can also mean 'first generation' as in 'father' edit: hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... ?monId=525 No mention of JJP on the boulder, but arms and Hamilton. JJP is only mentioned at the flagpole (dedicated in 1980 - cutting it close) Need some good ground penetrating radar devices... I think we are to dig at the JJP boulder.

If we are to follow the verse, you need to spell it out for me 'cause I can't see the v, or the pole, or simple roots taking us to the boulder.  For me the Look down and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil can only take you to the flagpole.  The plaque has been mounted in the ground .  The gazebo is west, way to far west of the plaque to be considered if you want to use the verse. What better place in the entire area can you look down at the ground and see rhapsodic man?  But, you may use the boulder for the sign nearby .  Where the heck is the boulder?

Try this again: ( Looks southeast of the flagpole) Forget the sign nearby , it doesn't say Hamilton on it.

Top 10 Movies Set and Filmed in Brooklyn Saturday Night Fever (1977; dir: John Badham) Here is a picture that is now viewed largely through the lens of camp, and that’s somewhat unfortunate. Set in a world that is 1977 to the nth degree, it stars John Travolta as Tony Manero, the paint store sales guy who lives for his weekly moment in the sun—or, more accurately, in the glitter-specked glow of the mirror ball—on the dance floor of the Bensonhurst disco, 2001 Odyssey. Based on a New York Magazine article that author Nik Cohn has since admitted was woven out of whole cloth, it still works by refashioning our age-old universal myth of striving into a modern cultural touchstone. Remember when it mattered if you loved or hated Disco? It was filmed throughout Bensonhurst—this el is along 86th Street—and Bay Ridge. The park bench where Tony sits and rhapsodizes on the glories of our under-praised Verrazano Narrows Bridge is in John Paul Jones Park. (And, by the way, everything he says about it is true.) Taken from: hxxp://gocaribbean.about.com/bltop10movies.htm.htm It was on the other nite but I only caught the end.  Anyone have the movie?  If she calls him Rhapsodic man in that scene, I'm going on a shooting spree!

hxxp://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scri ... cript.html no mention of rhapsodic man...

Thanks 2fast .  I guess that would have been too easy...a bench. Took a quick "unplanned" trip to JPJ Park today.  Nothing jumped out, but there are a few things of interest. There is a huge sign for Fort Hamilton opposite the park at 101st St. and Ft Hamilton Prkwy.  The only way to see it is by coming down FT Hamilton Prkwy nearing the park.  You are looking at as you get closer.  Make left into Fort under the bridge, make right onto 101st to drive along JPJ Park.  4th Ave is a one-way street going back into Brooklyn, away from the park. The plaque is not where it seems via satellite.  It is actually on the north side of the flagpole, in the ground.  What I saw on the south side looking north was a sign honoring vietnam vets.  It was sitting on an old slab of concrete. I don't know when the sign was put there, but it looks recent and it is black marble.  In the satellite link, it looks like the JPJ plaque is there. I bet it was moved.  Infact, the whole flagpole was moved a few feet to the south, now that I am looking again at the satellite.  Must have been to make space to put the JPJ plaque on the footpath side.  I took some pics with a throw-away camera.  Give me a couple of days to post those. The rock was to the east of the obelisk, closer to 101st St.  Here's an interesting bit. From the plaque, (where it is located now), 22 east steps takes you to the corner, and/or edge of the foot path.  The v maybe?  If you gaze north, it takes another 22 steps to the north and you are at the rock .  I'm guessing 22 steps is 22 yards.  Each step I took was equal to about one yard. No visuals of image12 anywhere, other than the arch of the Verrazano.  Help!!!

Boogie - it might help the rest of us if you could take a screen-shot from local.live or Google Earth and mark these spots so there is no confusion.

I'm trying to download a workable overhead view.  Can't figure it out.  Local live isn't working either.  Any suggestions?

I usually get the photo I want (Google, local.live, etc.) on the screen, hit "Print Screen," then simply paste to Windows Paint or some other graphics program. After that you can type, print, save, etc.

hxxp://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2& ... &encType=1 ( close the Welcome window and max out the screen to see it better) I have no luck pasting anything.  Until I do, I'll try to describe this better. The flagpole is just south of the Dover patrol monument (Obelisk).  The plaque of the flagpole is on the north side of the pole which I believe it had been moved.  The pole and base that it is mounted on have been moved a couple of feet to the south to create space for the JPJ plaque so you can see it from the footpath and not the grass.  On the grass side is now a black marble plaque dedicated to Vietnam vets.  The image from that satellite is from 2003, I believe that the JPJ plaque was on the grass side then.  In the satellite image, you can see the base of the pole on the footpath side, but no plaque.  When I went yesterday,  everything was moved. From the base, or from either plaque at the pole, I walked 22 steps east and it takes you to the edge of the path that runs parallel to 101st St.  I mean right to the edge.  In some spots there are only slabs where benches used to be mounted.  There are alot of electrical box man hole covers along every footpath in the park.  I got the feeling though, that the center (or middle) of the v would be just east, or 22 steps east of the pole, one branch running south along 101st, and one west, running back to the pole and beyond.  In a sense, if you are standing in the middle of the v , 22 west steps to the flagpole would be the middle of one branch of it.  22 steps east takes you to the v, and 22 steps west, takes you back to the middle of the one branch of the v.  The v  is branching out from the corner of the footpaths that meet coming from the pole going east, and going south along 101st. The way I see it, the x spot would be that corner where the v starts to branch out into the two different directions.  I don't really like the spot, but that's all I could come up with.  I only spent about thirty minutes there and didn't find anyone who knew anthing about the park.  I'm open to any suggestions.....

If you look at the hybrid live map, a perfect 'v' is formed by the intersection of 4th avenue and shore road. a sign is across the street (west) at the entrance to the Belt.  I wonder if it has Hamilton on it.... I have thought that instead of starting at the obelisk, flag pole and walking east, that you would end up there and see: Father (simple root) of the navy John Paul Jones (rhapsonic man) looking down. Walking this way would explain the 'or more' if you started across the street at the sign rather than 'in the middle of the road' where 'cars abound'.

I'm sorry...maybe I missed this elsewhere...but why is John Paul Jones considered "rhapsodic?" I looked thru the thread, but couldn't find an answer to this. ck

shecrab wrote:: I'm sorry...maybe I missed this elsewhere...but why is John Paul Jones considered "rhapsodic?" I looked thru the thread, but couldn't find an answer to this. ck He knows a lady who thinks that the path to heaven is paved in gold.

Trohn wrote:: He knows a lady who thinks that the path to heaven is paved in gold. And she's buy--i--i-- ing a stair--air way..... to heav-va-an! Shecrab, John Paul Jones was the keyboardist and songwriter for Led Zeppelin.  He (John Baldwin) changed his name to John Paul Jones in 1969, roughly the same time that Cannonball Park was changed to John Paul Jones Park in Brooklyn, in honor of the father of the U.S. NAvY.

Trohn wrote:: If you look at the hybrid live map, a perfect 'v' is formed by the intersection of 4th avenue and shore road. a sign is across the street (west) at the entrance to the Belt.  I wonder if it has Hamilton on it.... I have thought that instead of starting at the obelisk, flag pole and walking east, that you would end up there and see: Father (simple root) of the navy John Paul Jones (rhapsonic man) looking down. Walking this way would explain the 'or more' if you started across the street at the sign rather than 'in the middle of the road' where 'cars abound'. Now i really know what FB was saying about a screen shot and marking these things.  I was there and I'm still not sure what you are saying.  i got the gist of it and will check it out the next time I go.  I could use an extra set of eyes.

Unknown: I could use an extra set of eyes.

boogieman wrote:: Shecrab, John Paul Jones was the keyboardist and songwriter for Led Zeppelin.  He (John Baldwin) changed his name to John Paul Jones in 1969, roughly the same time that Cannonball Park was changed to John Paul Jones Park in Brooklyn, in honor of the father of the U.S. NAvY. Aha.....gotcha. Thank you. c

shecrab wrote:: Aha.....gotcha. Thank you. c I'd love to know who your rhapsodic man is in Canada!

boogieman wrote:: I'd love to know who your rhapsodic man is in Canada! Paul Schaffer

forest_blight wrote:: Meet my posse. Anyway, It's hard for me to think that looking down could be something other than that plaque.  Yet the empty blank space at the corner of the two footpaths, only 22 steps away, forces me to rethink.  Oh, forgot to mention this, at the top of that plaque is a picture of an American Indian head, like a Lincoln penny, only facing the other way.  Why an Indian when JPJ was from Scotland?

boogieman wrote:: Meet my posse. Anyway, It's hard for me to think that looking down could be something other than that plaque.  Yet the empty blank space at the corner of the two footpaths, only 22 steps away, forces me to rethink.  Oh, forgot to mention this, at the top of that plaque is a picture of an American Indian head , like a Lincoln penny, only facing the other way.  Why an Indian when JPJ was from Scotland? Doesn't this confirm that "an Indies Native" still speaks of HIM. I like it! Now, where in the ground was it in 1981? I say, stand at the plaque in the ground (in the 1981 location) turn North (and dig behind the plaque - at the southern foot ? )

The plaque was on the south side of the flag in 81', on the grassy side of the flag.  You had to face north to read it.  Now it is on the north side, the footpath side of the flag and you have to face south to read it.  ( Really only guessing at all of this, need to get confirmation)  It is also now surrounded by a wrought iron fence.  I would have to dig at the Vets plaque.  It sits upon an old slab of concrete.  So, in 81', you are facing north to read the plaque, why do we gaze north?  I would only have to take four stabs at it right?  Northern and soothern foot of each plaque!!!  But if I'm scaling a fence, I only want to do it once. BTW, aren't the natives still speaking about Hamilton and not JPJ?

I think it is a play on words... Hamilton is a West Indies Native  (who wrote of HARD words in three volumes) John Paul Jones is being talked of by an Indian in hard words Literally, the first is correct. Now, if you are first taking East steps, you would have to turn a quarter turn left to face North - and there by read the plaque (1981) and face the obelisk.  (how many of these sites have obelisks?) I still think gaze north is to look past the gazebo. Facing the obelisk, you would dig at the bottom of the plaque (south) At least there is a fixed point in this park that makes sense.

boogie - I like where this is going. But in order for your theory to be correct, the "Indian head" plaque would have to refer to someone of Hard word in 3 Vols. We've made an argument that " him " is Hamilton, but who is actually mentioned by name on the plaque? hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/common_images/monuments/390.jpeg The names I could find are: John Paul Jones Lt. Alton Douglass Edward W. Evans Arthur J. O'Brien (?) Gray Barry Angelo J. Arculeo Charles J. Henry Why would any of these be considered him of Hard word in 3 Vols. ?

forest_blight wrote:: boogie - I like where this is going. But in order for your theory to be correct, the "Indian head" plaque would have to refer to someone of Hard word in 3 Vols. We've made an argument that " him " is Hamilton, but who is actually mentioned by name on the plaque? I'm not sure that it is my theory.  I mean, Hamilton is still about the sign and JPJ is still about the plaque.. In reality, the entire park could be considered rhapsodic man's soil.  The simple roots maybe the Indian head as a simple tie-in.  But the Look down bit still takes me to the plaque.  It's the v that is the key.  For the x to be the plaque, the cente r of the v would have to be 22 steps west of the plaque that is located in the middle of one branch of that darned v.  That one branch must be headed east.  No?  The gazebo is about 60 yards to the west of the plaque so can we really consider it, I don't think so. Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Towards the Isle of B. Go 22 east steps and look down and you see the grass? When you gaze north, you see the plaque? Start digging? The v is the key....

boogieman wrote:: I'm not sure that it is my theory.  I mean, Hamilton is still about the sign and JPJ is still about the plaque.. In reality, the entire park could be considered rhapsodic man's soil.  The simple roots maybe the Indian head as a simple tie-in.  But the Look down bit still takes me to the plaque. It's the v that is the key .  For the x to be the plaque, the cente r of the v would have to be 22 steps west of the plaque that is located in the middle of one branch of that darned v.  That one branch must be headed east.  No?  The gazebo is about 60 yards to the west of the plaque so can we really consider it, I don't think so. Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Towards the Isle of B. Go 22 east steps and look down and you see the grass? When you gaze north, you see the plaque? Start digging? The v is the key.... The 'v' for me is the corner of 4th street and Shore Drive. Look at the over head images and you'll see a perfect V marked off by the cross walk.  It makes sense that 22 steps from the neaest 'branch' and more from the further one. Take a look over head, one photo shows the street before it was dug up and repaved, the other, after wards. It is perfectly west of the plaque. And there is a 'sign nearby' that is for the entrance to the Belt Parkway.

If you put a compass in the plaque and set it to 22 yards roughly, and made a complete circle around it, where the heck is the v?

tht sure doesnt look like a promising place to dig

This is where to dig.  Just can't figure the v and how it got us there.

I saw this while walking along the Mall in Washington, DC today, and thought of you boogie - our pal John Paul Jones:

Ok, so I had a thought, the isle of B couldn't be Bedloe's Island/Liberty Island, since the location you guys have found is already North of Isle B. Maybe there is a street called Benjamin Franklin St. or Bedloe St.  something for a B.  Isle meaning Aisle, Aisle like street or Lane. What do you think?

Bedloe's Island IS north of JPJ park, just not in a direct line of sight from what I understand.

regulus on google earth Liberty/bedloes island is  almost due north of JPJ park actually due north of the center span of the verrezano narrows bridge but at that distance close enough So basically All of Brooklyn is Rhapsodic man;s Soil because thats where george gershwin was born? Maltedfalcon

oh yeah, duh.  I should have looked a little better, i was looking at the peninsula of new york and i just assumed without looking for JPJ park. My Bad. Another casque 1 step away.  we got about three of those now, Milwaukee, New York City, and St. Augustine, Charleston?

Trohn wrote:: The beautiful thing here is:  Isle of B: Belle Island (in the Detroit River) was designed by Olmstead. The really beautiful thing here is that if you are on the shore GAZING NORTH TOWARD THE ISLE OF B., you are on the Canadian side of the border. digger7

ONE STEP AWAY, BASE OF THE PEDESTAL.  unless i misread, which is very likely.

While I was fiddling with some spreadsheets, I did come up with the following by taking the first and last letter of each word in the lines, and then anagramming: intesw = in west of te gy gt = of egg tt (is the West Egg From the Great Gatsby around that part?) fdteamtt = t famed tt esortesrpt  = s ports trees insr = in sr ylonhrawgsd = as long dr why csad = as dc ahtesn = Athens NY ssofisne = foss in es tensslsk = nests lks ofhmofwdin3vs = now 3 of his f md v teteasmyetssastehr =  east street them says orme = Rome fm te me of oe bh = meet home of  hbf oftev = of vet lkdn = lk dn adsesets = e dates ss inrcmssl = missn rcl orgenh = hero gn td te ie of B = Bette id  of vist a location e of fifth by oo (Taking the first letter of each line and all the captial letters) Thought this might help -- it seemed a little less than random, and the system also works with the other verses including the intro Any thoughts?

People have played around w/ anagrams and acrostics but really havent gotten very far....except for the one for Ft of Youth site.  Maybe we all should take another look

I've been trying to find time to get to my location before posting these items, but it looks as if I'm not going to make it. So, in the spirit of the hunt, I've decided to post what I believe is a solution for Verse 10, which I have paired up with Image 2. I believe the location may be in Niagara Falls, Canada. Here's the breakdown: In the shadow of the grey giant: on the Western side of Horseshoe Falls (the grey giant) itself--i.e. the Canadian side. I said the Western side because as the sun rises, the shadow would fall in the west. Find the arm that extends over the slender path : could be a bridge (there are two) or the "arm" of the New York State Observation tower which extends over the path below. In summer you'll often hear a whirring sound : Helicopters. Of course. the ones that fly over the falls. They fly in summer only. Cars abound : Very true--they do, at the lookout point. This could be the parking lot he is talking about. Althought the sign nearby speaks of Indies native : There is indeed a sign about an Indies native nearby: the native is Jose Maria Heredia, an epic poet from Cuba who wrote a poem called "Niagara.". Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols: This refers to Jacques Cartier. Him of "hard" word: Cartier is also a well-known diamond merchant, and diamonds are the hardest substance known. So "hard word" becomes diamond word, becomes Cartier. It is well-known that Jacques Cartier explored the area and probably even named the falls and the river. 3 Vols---I had a 'hard' (heh) time with this one, then I discovered that the word VOLS is French (as was Cartier) for "FLIGHTS". Vols, therefore, are not books or quantities, they are flights . Flights are either steps, stairs, or trips--and Cartier made THREE TRIPS to Niagara, three trips to the new world. "The Natives still speak of him." They do indeed. He's written in all their history and literature. It was the most important and significant thing that happened in that region ever. Take twice as many steps as the hour or more :  The hour in image 2 is 4. But this could also refer to the huge floral CLOCK that is predominate at the Falls. It isn't specific because it appends the words "or more." So this could be either steps or hours. From the middle of one branch of the v:  The V being the Queen VICTORIA parkway, which splits into two branches and runs right past the falls. Look down and see simple roots: Look down and see--roots-- ancestors . In rhapsodic man's soil: "Rhapsodic can refer to music, but it can also refer to Epic Poetry. See the entry above for Jose Maria Heredia. An epic poet. hxxp://www.mith2.umd.edu/summit/Proceedings/Luciani.htm Perhaps this is talking about the soil around the falls itself--or something else...this was one of the things I wanted to try to find out when I went there. Or gaze north toward the isle of B: There are two 'isles of B' in the area, one of which is predominately near the Table Rock location and another nearby.  Again, without being there and being able to orient myself, it was difficult to know which was being referred to. Now, these verses I believe fit with Image 2. The mask forehead is a good representation of the Grand Isle and the Niagara River. The "Butterfly fairy" speaks of (a) the Butterfly Sanctuary nearby at the Park, and (b) the pattern on her wings look a great deal like the strange 'Spanish aero-cart' that spans the falls--it has a wheel-like structure on its top that resembles the spots.  This may also be a reference to the 'whirring' sound. The latitude and longitude place you almost exactly there: 43W, -79N.  The arms of the fairy look like the bridge. The pear is representative of the largest cash crop in the area; Niagara is known for it's pear wine. The clock mask refers to the floral clock, the "hour" of the verse, and it also shows a star on one side and three stripes, red white and blue, on the other--the two sides of the river: Canadian and American. The star may be the casque location--on the "other side" of the river from the American side. The piney-branch is white cedar--a local plant that Cartier used to heal his entire crew of scurvy, which is one of those famous stories that "the natives still speak of." The eyes of the mask show a map symbol for waterfall (lines dropping down) or cataract (not the 'eye' ailment, but--also--double meaning?)  The lion refers to the Lyon's Creek Parkway, or to William Lyon Mackenzie, a famous 'ancestor' of the area. Also, one of the major thoroughfares in the area is Stanley Road--and Stanley was a well-known African explorer.  The woman in the fairy wings can be African, but she might also be Cuban--an "Indies" native. I have the casque placed in probability at the Table Rock area--there is a forked path there, and the sign for Heredia, and 'cars abound.' It is "in the shadow" of the falls, the Isle of B (Bird Isle) which is north of the Great Island, and Table Rock Point. Anyway, that's what I discovered. And I was hoping that I could get there to see if any of it confirmed anything. The area in Table Rock would be relatively easy to hide a casque in--there are lots of places it could be. So, there you have it. Go ahead and tear it up! Christin

sounds good to me!  Great job! -regulus

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned....but for those who are looking at verse 10 for NY....you may be on the right track with JPJ Park. The line referring to an Indies native could be a reference to Alexander Hamilton, who is from the British West Indies. I believe that JPJ Park is in or next to Fort Hamilton. I also suspect that the grey giant is the Empire State Building. See my post in the Guide to the Fair People's section. Shannon

shseverin11 wrote:: I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned....but for those who are looking at verse 10 for NY....you may be on the right track with JPJ Park. The line referring to an Indies native could be a reference to Alexander Hamilton, who is from the British West Indies. I believe that JPJ Park is in or next to Fort Hamilton. I also suspect that the grey giant is the Empire State Building. See my post in the Guide to the Fair People's section. Shannon JPJ is going to be thoroughly explored by some long time searchers next week. A Brooklyn group likes that John Paul Jones is both a patriot and a Rhapsodic Man. Niagra Ontarium was a popular theory but no firm spot was found in or around Victoria Park or Rainbow Bridge.  I was looking for a 'Isle of B' but never found one there to the North. Shecrab, please provide a link to the likely Isle you found....

Shecrab, I liked the way the verse fits, but image2 I'm stuck on Charleston like everyone else.  And, since I live near NY, I will exhaust all ideas there before heading to Niagara.  I have relatives up there if needed in a pinch.  Thanks for posting that.  Interesting indeed.  I can tell you honestly that at one time I was hooked on Niagara, I even ordered a video from National Geographics on it.  But right now, the slender path has me hooked on the Narrows Inlet. Shannon, if you look back through this thread, you'll find that Hamilton wrote the Federalists Papers contained in 3 volumes.  The phrase hard word had been italicized throughout the writngs.  Google it and you'll find them. We found that hard to be just a mere coincidence.  On the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano, JPJ Park is to the north side, and Fort Hamilton is at the south side of the bridge (sign nearby).  We just need the v.  (well, I just need the v, Trohn thinks he has it, but I don't see it).

boogieman wrote:: Shecrab, I liked the way the verse fits, but image2 I'm stuck on Charleston like everyone else.  And, since I live near NY, I will exhaust all ideas there before heading to Niagara.  I have relatives up there if needed in a pinch.  Thanks for posting that.  Interesting indeed.  I can tell you honestly that at one time I was hooked on Niagara, I even ordered a video from National Geographics on it.  But right now, the slender path has me hooked on the Narrows Inlet. Shannon, if you look back through this thread, you'll find that Hamilton wrote the Federalists Papers contained in 3 volumes.  The phrase hard word had been italicized throughout the writngs.  Google it and you'll find them. We found that hard to be just a mere coincidence.  On the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano, JPJ Park is to the north side, and Fort Hamilton is at the south side of the bridge (sign nearby).  We just need the v.  (well, I just need the v, Trohn thinks he has it, but I don't see it). I think a more telling interpretation at this locaton is interpretting "simple roots" to mean "father" Start at the corner of 4th and Shore Road (north east) Take your twenty two east steps from here and see if it takes you to a dig spot..... Let us know. (hmmm.... say that together.... 4 Shore... reminds me of the gettysburg Adress) thereby - "simple roots" and "middle of one branch" at the sign (where it was located in 1980) in the ground indicating "father of the american navy"

Love it Trohn.  That's the spot.  (and, oh, it wasn't moved).  I would like a v that gets you there.  I only want to dig once.

I don't know if this was mentioned before... but could be the Verrazano our 'v'? The verse give me the idea that our 'v' is something elevated when it say 'look down' and the verrazano is a place where you can see at north our 'isle of B' (or not?) hxxp://mywebpages.comcast.net/twilighteldredge/images/ny01220604.jpg One more... are you noticed that they are 22 'step' (suspender cable) between the east tower (branch) and the east anchorage? (under is the JPJ) 'or more...' (the great piece of steel suporting the main cable at the end) I hope it can help...

Could "simple roots" mean "humble beginnings," as in someone born into poverty becoming successful later in life?

Unknown: Niagra Ontarium was a popular theory but no firm spot was found in or around Victoria Park or Rainbow Bridge.  I was looking for a 'Isle of B' but never found one there to the North. Shecrab, please provide a link to the likely Isle you found.... I don't have a link. Almost any map of the falls area will show Great Isle, and to the north, Bird Isle. It's a very small little island. Horseshoe Falls spans the river between the shore and Great Isle, and Bird is the smallest island just to Great Isle's north shore. Ck PLEASE SEE MY ANNOUNCEMENT IN THE GENERAL MESSAGES SECTION OF THE SECRET FORUM.

eljayo, is this where you think the X is? I thought that too.  Only that rhapsodic soil has to be JPJ monument, no? If Fox and I ever get there, we'll look at the bottom of that support, and maybe some rhapsodic man will jump out.  Like some kind of marking on that wall. FB, you got something more on the Humble rhapsodic man?

boogieman wrote:: eljayo, is this where you think the X is? I thought that too.  Only that rhapsodic soil has to be JPJ monument, no? If Fox and I ever get there, we'll look at the bottom of that support, and maybe some rhapsodic man will jump out.  Like some kind of marking on that wall. FB, you got something more on the Humble rhapsodic man? Not really under the bridge. I think like you about rhapsodic soil not in JPJ monument but in JPJ park. I mean, If you stand on the bridge between 22-23 steps", and see north (toward the isle of B) and look down... you will see sometings like a 'circular hut' (it is wood? possible single root?) exactly in the line of sight Perhaps the exact 'X' will be done by intercept this line of sight toward north with something in the park (Lamppost or other stuf) aligned in perspective with the picture's shape. (I know... noting in verse or images hint about this, but could be).

Eljayo- The 'hut' in the park is being referred to as a 'gazebo' and from the 'father of the navy' monument one would look directly past it to see Bedlow Island to the North. The thought is that Gaze North is a word play phase for the gazebo.

yes! gazebo is the right name... please, forgive my odd english (is not my mother language) Thanks Trohn

Trohn wrote:: Eljayo- The 'hut' in the park is being referred to as a 'gazebo' and from the 'father of the navy' monument one would look directly past it to see Bedlow Island to the North. The thought is that Gaze North is a word play phase for the gazebo. Well, it fit better in BP method no? is very clever.

Just for complete the idea... The pattern in the gazebo's domus seem (I don't have a good pic of the gazebo... please check it boogieman) like the pattern in pic 12, then... Well, I enjoy to share this idea... and has having a good time. don't dismiss when you'll be there.

fox wrote:: I think boogieman interpretted the "V" as Verrazano Bridge itself.  Also, check out the pic of the park boogie posted w/ the bridge behind it....  those sets of supporting beams sure look like giant V's to me.  Can we stand directly below the bridge to either start the path or actually dig? Yes, it was mentioned before...

I like it!  I've got pics of the gazebo from my trip there last month but never posted them.  Wasn't needed I thought.  Still, no pics from that angle.  Will do!!! But Trohn, from the monument, you would have to look south to see the gazebo, and just maybe, from that monument you might see eljayo'e view of the top of gazebo centered in the arch of the bridge.  hmmmmm

Here is a line from the monument to the gazebo and the bridge is right in line behind the gazebo.  Whether it lines up perfectly, we'll have to find out.

Here's a view of JPJ Park from local.live.com.  I had to stitch 2 different pics together - the 2 shots were obviously taken from slightly different angles, so things don't line up perfectly, but hopefully it's close enough to give a good idea of how things line up.  The yellow line shows the line of sight from the monument through the gazebo.

I think the JPJ monument is in SE side of the obelisk, not the obelisk itself. (or not?) In fact, I think Obelisk, JPJ monument and gazebo don't align exactly with nothing in Verrazano's bridge. Considering there are angles corrections (correct projections) needed to obtain the real alignment in a pic, I think this is a closer approach: Red line> between Verrazano's east tower and gazebo. white line> between 22-23 step and gazebo. yellow line> between JPJ monument and gazebo... (intercept Verrazano's bridge in the middle between east tower and '22-23 step' point) I was thinking about Chicago and Cleveland casques burial sites... seem to be in hidden places... away from the public sight. What do you think?

Rethinking verse.. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v The '22-23 step' point in Verrazano's bridge Look down There is a grass area exactly below the bridge at this point. And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Reference to JPJ park. This point under the bridge belong to JPJ park? Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. This 'Or' is confusing to me... but lead me to look at north... there is a 'gaze'bo toward the isle of B as confirm. This 'X' solution have a problem... 'simple roots' match with..?. If you extend this 'gaze north' until reach JPJ monument (not exactly north) there is a possible 'simple root' (indian face in plaque) So it could be a better spot... Where would we find a pic of the JPJ monument in the 80's with this plaque at SE side of the monument? there is surrounded with shrubs like it is now? (This shrubs are a good place away from the public sight)

Wasn't the JPJ monument moved to its current location after 1982?  Do we know where it was before then? It does make sense that BP would have buried the casque out of plain view of everyone. Unfortunately, the verse doesn't seem to be any more specific as to where in the park it's buried. Hopefully, something will match up in the picture when someone is standing in the park. Shannon

shseverin11 wrote:: Wasn't the JPJ monument moved to its current location after 1982?  Do we know where it was before then? OK, I'm pretty sure it is in it's original spot.  The plaque on the other side has been added, but nothing has moved since 82'. Meanwhile, going back to the V errazano as our v scares me, like going back to zero again.  But as far as that goes, we never really got past zero anyway so what the heck...  El jayo, there is something there in your posts, just trying to work it out.  I like where it is going.  looks like we're back to the gazebo! The "or" irks me too.  Look down or gaze north?

so the slender path is the area just below the bidge and next to the parkway is it possible the location is straight down from the bridge on the slender path? It seems to me the verse just says look down and there you go. It looks like a parking lot or something. is it diggable?

The only way this would make sense to me is if the "slender path" is the Narrows itself. That's what led us to this spot in the first place.

boogieman wrote:: The "or" irks me too.  Look down or gaze north? I'll admit to not following this recent bit of brainstorming.  Without knowing anything about the location, a thought comes to mind about that "or".  What if there was a plaque or trail map of some kind back in 1982, which shows the lay of the land ahead?  You could either look down at the map or gaze up from the map facing north, looking at either the sight itself or the representation of the sight on the map.

Sorry to say catherwood, there are no maps or trails there.  The park itself can only be three, maybe four acres tops.  Then, it's all city blocks. As far as the "points" on the bridge, there are 23 of them.  I know you cannot stand on the bridge, especially at the 22nd point and look down.  Even so, can we establish that these points can be interpreted as steps?  Those 22 steps in actuality seem to measure near a quarter mile.  How can we interpret them to be Step 1, Step 2, etc.?  And coincidentally, those points are shaped like these, v and ^.  At this point, I don't think we can incorporate that into the verse, or can we? Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch of the v hmmm. (edit: Hang loose Turtle and Sonoran, just getting ready, I haven't forgotten about WSP.)

boogieman wrote:: As far as the "points" on the bridge, there are 23 of them.  I know you cannot stand on the bridge, especially at the 22nd point and look down. I thought that too... but at least one days it's posible... hxxp://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501EED71130F931A35752C1A9679C8B63 hxxp://www.nycmarathon.org/home/index.php Which will be the shadow's path of the tower east in those days?

My first thought is that the marathon sounds plausible since bikes make a "whirring" sound. But when I re-read the verse "In summer you'll often hear a whirring sound," it doesn't hold up. "Often" implies more than one day a year and the marathon is in November, not the summer. I think the Verrazano Bridge is a good lead given the similarities to the picture and the verse fitting with JPJ Park. I just don't know how BP could expect us to look down if the bridge has never been open to pedestrians. I guess that's the question, isn't it? Shannon

[quote author=shseverin11 link=topic=728.msg64600#msg64600 date=1184120463 I think the Verrazano Bridge is a good lead given the similarities to the picture and the verse fitting with JPJ Park. I just don't know how BP could expect us to look down if the bridge has never been open to pedestrians. I guess that's the question, isn't it? Shannon [/quote] Yep.  yep, yep.  Think!  Think!  I'm still trying.  Good observation Shannon

Boogieman, You have a big 'to do' list when you visit JPJ park again. I'm looking for another 'V' that lead us directly over JPJ plaque... by the way... could be 'paces' one foot? I mean 12 inch...

eljayo wrote:: Boogieman, You have a big 'to do' list when you visit JPJ park again. I'm looking for another 'V' that lead us directly over JPJ plaque... by the way... could be 'paces' one foot? I mean 12 inch... There is no other verse thatwould lead us to JJP... if this be the verse then this be the Rhapsodic Man.

Trohn wrote:: There is no other verse thatwould lead us to JJP... if this be the verse then this be the Rhapsodic Man. Eljayo meant the V to be the v in verse ten.  Not 'another verse'. Anyway, i had the great pleasure of meeting Fox and his family today.  There was a communication problem between us so hooking up was a spur of the moment thing, like "let's dig without shovels" kinda thing.  I had just gotten back from vacation and he had to fly home in a few hours, so we rushed to the JPJ Park and tore it up! Not really, but we did decide that the v is the cables that run up both sides of the JPJ monument supporting flags at the top of each side of the T making the cables v shaped......I'll give you more info later tonite.  gotta run.  PS:  Didn't find it.  Dug in one spot.  Two more to check.

boogieman wrote:: Eljayo meant the V to be the v in verse ten.  Not 'another verse'. boogieman wrote:: Anyway, i had the great pleasure of meeting Fox and his family today.  There was a communication problem between us so hooking up was a spur of the moment thing, like "let's dig without shovels" kinda thing.  I had just gotten back from vacation and he had to fly home in a few hours, so we rushed to the JPJ Park and tore it up! Not really, but we did decide that the v is the cables that run up both sides of the JPJ monument supporting flags at the top of each side of the T making the cables v shaped......I'll give you more info later tonite.  gotta run.  PS:  Didn't find it.  Dug in one spot.  Two more to check. It's right... we need pics pics pics....

how deep didya dig? -regulus

Fox has some pics and I'll look through and see what I already have. Basically, for a little over two hours, we walked around this little park trying to find this v.  We looked at everything.  gazebo, bridge supports, north, west, east.  Lines of sight...  And we focused a little on what got us to this park, the first 12 lines of the verse.  From that, we both agreed we were in the right place.  Feeling 100 % about it as a matter of fact. We started looking for this darned v.  And I have to tell you all, Fox is a lot better at details than I, looking at things that i had previously brushed off.  We find ourselves standing in front of the monument.  22 steps?  middle of one branch?  The monument is this large flagpole with a t shape at the top.  On either side is a flag, with the Stars and Stripes in the middle of the t.  One flag is of a maple leaf, seemingly the symbol for JPJ Park  ( a JPJ Park sign on the wrought iron fence around the monument had the leaf).  Couldn't tell what the third flag was.  But both outside flags were strung up by cables, starting at the base rising to the 30 some odd feet t creating the v shape.  Maybe?  The base itself is about 4 feet high where the flagpole is mounted and we noticed that you could actually stand on that thing. Look down .  Always haunted me, look down?  And see simple roots, In rhapsodic man's soil? It's gotta be right here at the base somewhere! On the east side of this huge base and against it's wall, I noticed an old styrofoam cooler hidden behind the brush.  I found an unlocked gate in the wrought iron and walked in to take a look.  It contained old stanky water with two bouquetts of flowers that had died many many months ago.  We looked at each other, we didn't have the 22 steps, we had hoped we had found the v, but gaze north?  We decided that maybe the spot could be at either side of middle of one branch of the v , east or west?  Back to the cooler.  What if, and this is a major stretch, someone close to BP who knew The Secret, left those flowers as some kind of memorial right on the x spot. I know, I know.  We laughed about that too but we were really pressed for time and Fox grabs a stick to start digging.  With that, a public parks worker pulls right up to us in a van, right on the foot path.  We though we we were busted.  We decide quickley to go to this guys and explain what we were doing.  The guy hands us a shovel from the back of the van and said "good luck".  Fate!  Now it's gotta be here!  A shovel had just walked up to us.  We got about 2 foot and this guy, Evan, had to go and he took his shovel.  Looking at our watches and a flight to catch, we dug with the stick for another twenty minutes before giving up.  To all of you who had dug before and know about it, we really thought we were going to pull this thing out of the ground.  And that my friends, was fun!  Got some work to do, but I think we'll get it.  The spot just looks so good to bury something.  Pics to come.

*lol* I bet Evan was there in Houston at one point looking on as Wilhouse pondered.... Can't wait to see the photos. Good story.  waiting for the happy ending... Did anything from the image and its details match the specific monument area?? (Did you stop and hear the whirring?)

so basically you take the twenty two steps, and then from the middle of one branch of the v look down and see the roots and soil?  sounds good i thought that we all decided that the v was the two cross streets then you take the steps to the monument. Good Luck, i think you've got it. -regulus

A casque is close to see light...  again.

Trohn, nothing really matched the image other than knowing the Lady Liberty was near, and the arch of the bridge was perfect.  Even this guy Evan spoke of the great Russian population that had immigrated to Brooklyn.  He nailed the domes as a Russian Church, but the one we found last year isn't close to the park at all.  Is knowing it is in Brooklyn enough?  Fox and I tried to match anything we could to the image.  Nothing jumped out like in Egbert's image.  The preverbial Ah Ha! glimpse...  We talked about that alot.  25 years ago, who knows what was here back then. Regulus, sounds simple to take 22 steps to the monument and look down.  Only where is the starting point.  We dug simply on the chance that where ever the starting point, it had to end at the monument.  Those cross streets, 22 steps wouldn't get you anywhere near the monument.  My best guess right now is that from the middle of one branch of the v says that the v is made up of trees.  Branch = tree.  With two rows of trees making a v shape, one of them is the branch.  It doesn't have to be a tree in the middle of one of the sides of the v, but take the steps from the middle of any of the trees itself.  And that branch or tree is the one that actually starts the v, the exact tree at the point of the v.  This puts my mind back to the steps starting out of the east side of the park heading west.  Just like an east wind comes out of the east flowing into the west.  This theory, better yet a simple guess, would put you at the tree just east of the monument, and actually 22 walking steps to the spot where Fox and I ( and his 7 year son) started digging, under the cooler.  Still, gaze north?  Like I said earlier, we got about two feet down.  Not enough.  And the diameter of the hole was quite small.  Here's a pic i took months ago:

And another;

what about digging outside of the gate?

regulus wrote:: what about digging outside of the gate? Why outside?

boogieman wrote:: My best guess right now is that from the middle of one branch of the v says that the v is made up of trees.  Branch = tree.  With two rows of trees making a v shape, one of them is the branch.  It doesn't have to be a tree in the middle of one of the sides of the v, but take the steps from the middle of any of the trees itself.  And that branch or tree is the one that actually starts the v, the exact tree at the point of the v. I thought the conclusion was that the v was the cables from the flagpole? If you did not see anything but the shape of the bridge matching the picture, what makes you 100% sure that it's the right park?  Did anyone get a chance to explore Washington Square? Shannon

what does simple root mean boogie?

While we were there, and figured we only had an hour left, we had just hoped the cables were the v and started digging.  The simple roots, the rhapsodic man's soil,  seems the logical place for the dig was at the monument.  While assuming the 22 steps are correct, how can the cables be the v?  22 steps from the cables takes you back to the base of that tree, a very old oak tree with roots bigger than me.  Just cant see it buried there.  Figuring the last 9 lines of the verse seems to be the road block.  Oh yeah, and matching pic12 to the site.  But the first 12 lines of the verse made us feel 100% sure, doesn't make us 100% correct.

I think reverse engineering can be applied here, but none of these V's has sense for me. perhaps we are failing interpreting '22 paces'...

eljayo wrote:: I think reverse engineering can be applied here, but none of these V's has sense for me. perhaps we are failing interpreting '22 paces'... Let me correct the thoughts here...  'twice as many steps as the hour' It is only assumed that hour means 'eleven'

Unknown: His vessel afire and sinking, Jones refused the enemy’s demand for surrender, replying “I have not yet begun to fight.” Three hours later, the Serapis surrendered. John Paul Jones Park- Historical Sign The above link suggests that at least some of the content on the page is on a historical sign at JPJ Park.  Here's a quote from that page (emphasis mine): Boogie, Fox, did you see any signs that match that link? The word "Indies" kind of bugs me.  Apart from "Indians", what else could it mean?  "Independents" as in films, music, or maybe "revolutionaries" (a stretch)?

Jambone wrote:: John Paul Jones Park- Historical Sign The above link suggests that at least some of the content on the page is on a historical sign at JPJ Park.  Here's a quote from that page (emphasis mine): Alexander Hamilton was a native of the West Indies. From what I've read, John Paul Jones park used to be named Hamilton Park.

shseverin11 wrote::

Oops, my comment in the last post got into the "quote" section. Sorry about that. I was thinking about the "v" in the verse. Could the v be where 4th Ave and 101st. St meet?  That part of the park is "v" shaped. Another thought is that the "v" stands for Verrazano. Maybe BP is telling us to walk from the middle of one lane of the Verrazano (not walking on the bridge, but starting next to the bridge). Shannon

A few quick things.  Fort Hamilton is a military fort named after Alexander Hamilton (Indies Native) and is located in Brooklyn on the south side of the Verrazano.  John Paul Jones Park is also in Brooklyn and is on the North side of the Verrazano. Nearby enough, I think.  The Verrazano Bridge runs east to west across the slender path , the narrows Inlet.  The eastern side of the bridge is in Brooklyn and the western side is in Staten Island.  John Paul Jones Park used to be called Cannon Ball Park.  In 1969 it was changed to JPJ Park, coincidentally, the same year that John Baldwin from Led Zeppelin changed his name to JPJ. (rhapsodic man) 4th ave runs west to east on the north side of the park.  101st runs north to south, both streets running along the perimeter of the park.  Fox and I discussed this.  There aren't any good areas around the entire perimeter to dig.

George Gershwin, Composer of Rhapsody in Blue, was born in Brooklyn so by defininition all of Brooklyn is Rhapsodic Man's soil. thats probably a little more likely than the John Baldwin connection.

Assuming that all of Brooklyn could be rhapsodic man's soil, is it possible that the casque is buried at Fort Hamilton?  The Harbor Defense Museum is in the fort and is open to the public. According to the website, it has an overlook area with a nice view of the Verrazano Bridge and Narrows. See link below. I know somebody mentioned this place before (under image 12) but I'm not sure if anyone was ableto check into it. Perhaps there is a "v" there. hxxp://www.harbordefensemuseum.com/ Shannon

maltedfalcon wrote:: George Gershwin, Composer of Rhapsody in Blue, was born in Brooklyn so by defininition all of Brooklyn is Rhapsodic Man's soil. thats probably a little more likely than the John Baldwin connection. If Gershwin is the key, and I wouldn't mind that one bit, then that would take us back to the sign nearby as the starting point.  You definitely can't dig in Fort Hamilton.  Military Fort.  Still active.  As for a sign nearby, the only one I can find is the one at the corner of 101st St. and Hamilton Prkwy.  Ok.  I'll check that out again MF.  (oops, I hope the language filters let me abbr. malted falcon)

Go to hxxp://local.live.com/  get a close up of the Verrazano in the bird's eye view option on the left of the screen.  Scan over to fort hamilton which is south-east of the bridge. I had just mentioned that you can't dig in Fort Hamilton.  But look at that huge v made out of a concrete wall.  There's actully two v's, one bigger than the other.  I can't download the image.  Can onyone else?  Geez, those v's really stand out!!!!! edit: also view it from the south option.  And you can also most definitely look down from that v.  From the image, it looks that the gaze north line tells you what side of the v to look down from.  I'm going to Fort Hamilton soon.  I bet there's something there nearby the end of the one branch that speaks of Hamilton. Wow!

Are you referring to the Belt Parkway/Shore Road on ramp, just south of the ever present shadow??

Nope.  Right in fort hamilton. It's not far from the entrance to the fort which is right under the bridge.  At local.live.com you have to move around to find it. It's kind of on the western side of the complex, closer to the swimming pools.  Here's a link from google. hxxp://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.6 ... &z=19&om=1

Just inside the Fort area, off of the sign that siads "Exit 2: Fort Hamilton", the fenced off bulding facility, could that be a cooling station for the Fort?? (in summer you often hear a whirring) The budiling is yellow with its own access road.

try this view, then zoom in: hxxp://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=k&om= ... 06083&z=17

Yes, I do see what you are referring to. It is V shaped. But it is inside the Fort and digging would defintely be prohibited (with or without permission) Now... I have an explanation for "Or More" IF BP wants you to cross the highway to get to the burial spot, it would be twenty two (or so) steps directly across in a straight line. If you've every crossed a highway, you are forced into a lot of zig zagging to make it safely to the other side. This would be the "or more"

Take twice as many east steps as the hour or more from the middle of one branch of the v Look down If BP would not have us zig zagging across a highway, why would he give us a clue to do so? I think the "or more" here could possibly mean that the east steps take you to the middle of one branch of the v where you look down, if in fact the v sat in the same direction as the v in Fort Hamilton.  One branch has to go east, correct?  In this case, both branches go east, so gaze north and look down.  This way you can only be on one side of the v looking down and facing north.  Therefore, the "or more" would mean to simply start at the end of the most southern branch of the v and head east. We can only know for sure when we find the right v.  (v not meaning verse.  LOL) The verse can be twisted to fit almost anything.  But there can only be one "right" v.  We've twisted it around alot in JPJ Park. BTW... If you can have your wedding photos taken within the fort, why not be able to dig?  We have to find out for sure so that any other ideas are not a waste of time. edit: Fox, fix you gosh darn internet connection problems and get in here!!!!!

Good luck boogie - if/when you ever get to dig there, please avoid hitting buried ordinance!

forest_blight wrote:: Good luck boogie - if/when you ever get to dig there, please avoid hitting buried ordinance! LOL.. "KABOOM"

Here's a thought... Again...  BP grew up in Brooklyn.  He had to knew Fort Hamilton pretty good.  Wouldn't he know the v shape was there?  That v is just outside the museum.  Maybe this is like FOY Park.  The clues we are missing for Image12 and V10 may be contained within the museum.

How about this v.  Scan up 4th street to 94th street using local.live.com.  Fort Hamilton Triangle.  Here's a little history. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11368 A bad pic, but definitely shows the v.  And you can go to the middle of it and gaze north. hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&g ... &z=19&om=1 edit:  this probably isn't what we need, but triangles in general do form nice v's.

boogieman wrote:: How about this v.  Scan up 4th street to 94th street using local.live.com.  Fort Hamilton Triangle.  Here's a little history. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11368 A bad pic, but definitely shows the v.  And you can go to the middle of it and gaze north. hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&g ... &z=19&om=1 edit:  this probably isn't what we need, but triangles in general do form nice v's. I like the eagle on the memorial in the triangle, but I also liked the arched windows at the Harbor Defense Museum. ... hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/common_image ... s/259.jpeg

shseverin11 wrote:: I like the eagle on the memorial in the triangle, but I also liked the arched windows at the Harbor Defense Museum. ... hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/common_image ... s/259.jpeg The arches on the museum do match up.  But the arch in Image12 has to be the Verrazano.  That's how we got here, the arm that extends. I hope to see more inside the museum. The whole place doesn't seem to be so tight with security.  They have St Paddy's Day parties there where everyone is hammered.  How tough could it be to dig?  Anything else you notice about the arched windows?  Other than the shape?

boogieman wrote:: The arches on the museum do match up.  But the arch in Image12 has to be the Verrazano.  That's how we got here, the arm that extends. I hope to see more inside the museum. The whole place doesn't seem to be so tight with security.  They have St Paddy's Day parties there where everyone is hammered.  How tough could it be to dig?  Anything else you notice about the arched windows?  Other than the shape? I was viewing the arch on the museum as a match with the "stained glass window" inside the big arch in p 12 that matches us with the bridge. I couldn't find any other matches. I did email the museum to ask them what the sign on the museum wall says (the one in the picture on their homepage) but my email was rejected as spam Shannon

Look at this old, old engraving of the Fort... hxxp://www.harbordefensemuseum.com/images/history1.jpg

Trohn wrote:: Look at this old, old engraving of the Fort... hxxp://www.harbordefensemuseum.com/images/history1.jpg hxxp://www.harbordefensemuseum.com/images/history1a.jpg

That would, of course, be Noah Webster.

Okay, I haven't followed this verse too much. I'm in New Orleans, trying to rule out verses that aren't verse two. I got to thinking about "Of Hard Word in 3 Vols." In the 1600s, glossaries were frequently referred to as 'hard-word' dictionaries. hxxp://phrontistery.info/glosstitle.jpg From the devil Wikipedia: "Webster thought that Americans should learn from American books, so he began writing a three volume compendium, A Grammatical Institute of the English Language. The work consisted of a speller (published in 1783), a grammar (published in 1784), and a reader (published in 1785)" Might there be any other Websters (possibly Daniel) that may trigger any thoughts? My $0.02

At the park, were there any guides or information about the specific types of trees growing there by any chance?

We need to generate some new ideas people! Since verse 6 seems to be back in Charleston, I went back to pondering verse 10 for NY. Someone mentioned that Hard Words used to refer to dictionaries, which got me thinking about books.  What if the word "branch" in the verse is referring to a library branch?  There is a Fort Hamilton Library Branch in Brooklyn. We've ben assuming, too, that the "sign" in the verse refers to the entrance to the Fiort, but it could just as easily be referring to the library sign. If you zoom into the library in Google and then look at the satellite view, you'll see it's right next to the "v"-shaped park, Fort Hamilton Memorial Park. I realize that if you take steps from the middle of one branch, you could be taking them from the library or from one of the branches of the v. I think both possibilities are worth exploring.  Anyone live in Brooklyn?  I can get there, but it's a real pain for me. Here's the link to the library. hxxp://www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/br ... pageid=170

The first 4 lines of the verse, if it is Brooklyn, puts you at the Verrazano.  How can the whirring sound in summer get you up to 94th street and 4th ave?  I like the Fort Hamilton Triangle as a v.  We just need to find a whirring sound by the library. Here's an eagle at the Triangle:

Subways?

Subways don't really whir, do they? (That would be an odd subway--)

Shecrab, I don't know . I 'm deaf and don't live near one . I was hoping to lend a thought.

an elevated train perhaps?  I have never been there.

hxxp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abound From the Latin form of abound, abundare , it means overflow, run over . The arm that extends has cars running over head.  Not the correct context of the word but if you play with it, run over fits nice.  With that, I'm going back to the big v that supports the Verrazano on the JPJ side.  From there you can look or gaze north, past the gazebo towards Liberty Island.  Take the 22 steps from the west end of the v and go east.  The support has many tiers of rock that I'm going to consider branches for now, and hope the 22 steps takes me to the middle of one of them, then start digging.  The thinking here is that BP must have buried it by a permanent structure, unlikely to be touched.

I like this take on the "v".  You may even try walking from west to east along the "v" with a compass until the gazebo is due north.  Hopefully something at the spot will stand out. The real downer is that there appears to be a big fence complete with barb wire to keep people from getting near that "v."  Was it there in the 1982?  Not sure who we can ask about that.

There have been temporary fences on and off for years.  This fence is due to construction to the upper roadways of the bridge, designed to keep people from getting "stuff" dropped on them.  BTW, this support v has been discussed and dismissed a few times.  Personnally, I'm stuck on the arm that extends over the slender path .  To me, there can be no other location in the world than this one.  The verse doesn't take us far from the foot of it.  We can make the verse fit into many other places (kind of), but with the grey giant (Tower Two), and the outline of the bridge, plus the Narrows Inlet, I'm digging here.

boogieman, you wanted to go west instead of east.........someone said the picture was a mirror image, that could let you go west. how long has the gazebo been there? if you all have given up on jpj park... i was thinking more about coney island it looks like a cyclone in the water hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone lots of rides (cars) here's a clock at coney island, 5th picture down hxxp://history.amusement-parks.com/insi ... echase.htm i also read there is a B and V line or something like that this picture of dante's inferno reminded me of the cobblestones in the pic hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coney_Isla ... amusements smoko the human volcano (vol) hxxp://erikweems.com/comic_atomic/_large_smoko_800.html the shape of the beach,(under her left arm in the picture) hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coney_Island but this picture reminded me of the shape of the lady in our picture hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN

also wanted to mention joseph heller--Catch 22--born on coney island--but i couldn't find anything like a plaque or monument dedicated to him. he also wrote--Now and Thenn-Ffrom Coney Island To Here and Closing Time crazy research huh, lol

Very interesting observations SB.  I had tried to get Coney Island in there for a long time.  That is where the whirring sound fits the best.  One thing that bit me about your post was the Dante's Inferno.  Not just the look of it, that is a nice find, but Dante himself.  Back before I got into this hunt I stumbled on my friend Keylime reading Divine Comedy , by Dante.  When I asked him "why", because it is such a hard read,  he showed me image12.  He said the lady looked like an angel with lady liberty's face, hovering over the water and that there are two figures looking up at her and laughing. The Divine Comedy .  That's what got me started here, but I still refused to read that book.  lol  He read that book 6 times.  Here are the figures: edit;  found this on a search: hxxp://youtube.com/watch?v=qGMszVzM6Pc& ... ed&search=

I found the map of Prospect Park interesting. There is a Washington St. on the map and a picture of George Washington in the woman's dress. If the casque is buried on Coney Island, we'll need to find it very soon before they knock it down (if they haven't already)  :-(

boogieman, i'm like keylime when it comes to a book i love, but i've never read dante. (except bits and pieces) funny that two different parts of the picture made us both think of it. i've just started this hunt, and trying to read each verse and all the posts so that i can be familiar with them. i don't know anything about new york.  could the astrolabe be the grey giant? maybe you start the verse from inside coney island. sounds like a great place to spend the day anyway, lol i did like the cobblestones and the history of it

shseverin11, it has the botanical garden, and a library (branch)

You have to start the verse at the WTC.  In the shadow of Tower Two (observation deck) you see the bridge that spans across the Narrows Inlet, the slender path .  These are the lines that put you in NY.  Without them, you could wind up with any statue or any foot path in the country. BTW, Keylime hates that book.  He was just looking for clues.  We didn't even think about Dante's Inferno at Coney Island.

The "grey giant" could describe a lot of buildings... or structures... or large statues.  You'd think that if BP wanted to point you to the WTC, he would have referenced the twin towers, or something moderately more specific. Also, why would he point you to the twin towers, in downtown Manhattan, just to move you miles down the river to the Verrazano Narrows?  It's nowhere in the shadow of the WTC. The WTC could make sense -- but not if you're trying to get to JPJ park.  It would make sense if you were trying to get to Battery Park, or Trinity Church... but this interpretation doesn't add up.

In 81' and 82', if you were vivsiting Manhattan, one of the things to do would be to go to the observation deck of the WTC.  Another would be to go to the crown of the Statue of Liberty.  Either way, what you would see is a large wide harbor.  From the WTC, you'd see Liberty and the Verrazano.  From the crown, you'd see the WTC to the left and the Verrazano to the right.  From the Verrazano, you can see the other two looking north.  If you are in the crown, and you are thinking poetically, like, maybe verse10 is in your hand, you would see that you were in the shadow of the grey giant (like the building of Image12, Tower Two, the only one of the two that had an obsevation deck on the roof), and you would find the arm (bridge) that extends or spans (a word also used for a bridge), over the part of the harbor that narrows as it moves out to sea.  This is called the Narrows Inlet, and the part that got us to NY in the first place.

The gray giant could be Tower 2 only figuratively, not literally. The WTC's shadow could not have fallen on the areas we've been considering since they were almost due north of those areas.

@boogieman: Meh.  It would make more sense if something else was the gray giant.  If BP was referring to the WTC, he probably would have said giant s . Of course, if the casque really is buried in JPJ park, it doesn't matter what the giant is.  But since there hasn't been much progress here... it's worth it to reexamine some basic assumptions.

I've said this before, but the "grey giant" could be the entire city . Visible from the harbor, or another off-manhattan location. Or perhaps East or West of said city--because he does say "in the shadow of the grey giant." That would mean to me that it was either west of the city when the sun rose or east when the sun set.  It seems rather silly to say 'grey giant' about only one building in a city full of 'grey giants.'

"It must have been cold there in my shadow, To never have sunlight on your face" Do you think Bette Midler was trying to say that she was too fat, blocking the sun from her sisters face?  Or that she was just more famous and stood out bigger and brighter than her sister?  I don't think she had wings either... I'm saying that the Verrazano looked tiny when looked upon from Tower Two.  The WTC was far more famous than the bridge.  And that has to be the building in Image12.

okay, i know i'm getting everything all confused, verses and images, but i wanted to post these pictures here that i found when i was reading image 9 thread (sheesh that's long) and i'm not sure how BP would mix up these two pictures, because the dogleg takes us to montreal but when we got there someone posted this picture: hxxp://www.clubmountstephen.net/V2/visi ... lle_en.htm isn't that our lady from pic 12? or is that found everywhere? and then someone posted a picture of this church in montreal: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/58811959@N00/41035785/ have a good Christmas everyone!

i'm sorry, this should be under image 12 i guess. ! i told you i was getting confused!

This may have been stated before, but could the "grey giant" be the bridge itself?  (I'm going to have to go back and read this whole thread.)  From my reading, since he used "THE" grey giant and not "A" grey giant I believe that "the arm that extends" belongs to the giant.

i know i jump the gun on ideas, sheesh i spent hours on bowling green because it being wedge shaped (which meant to me like a "v") and the native american museum there...then to columbus park because of chinatown  but this one i really think fits: look at this map: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo%2C_New_York turn the picture sideways with her head right...... i went there because of the catskill word and then i found this "rhapsodic soil" : The Symphony Circle in Delaware Park hxxp://preserve.bfn.org/bam/kowsky/kowold/ hxxp://preserve.bfn.org/bam/kowsky/kowo ... ce/23.html delaware park, buffalo new york for the rest i think you have to be there. what do you guys think? i know you guys are better researchers than me so maybe you can find better pictures, if so please post them! i'm not any where close to new york and don't see any possibliity of ever getting there again doesn't this look good? whoever is close to buffalo please let me know what you think! thanks

i believe it is niagara falls in the picture. there is a bridge connecting niagara falls and buffalo new york called, the "whirlpool bridge".. look at this:hxxp://wiki.worldflicks.org/niagara_falls.html

Their is a long shot that this could be New Orleans. The reason I think this is because of the line take twice as many steps as the hour or more. This could be talking about the hour on the clock in the New Orleans Image. I do not think this is the case but it is an idea we have to eliminate before we try to dig up the New Orleans casque.

A little bird told me lots of images had clocks . Having considered this and reread the verse the key to tieing this verse to an image are two things. First the sign about Indies Native. Wether or not that sign is at the location of this verse most likely the place that this goes to has records. The other thing is the Hard Word of 3 Vols. This is likely a clue to a set of books. The correct city will most likely know right away what this talking about. The Park and Recreation Department and historical societies in these cities are good places to try. But we have to be relatively confident that we think this and other verses are likely matchs to an image before we use them. We can not send them everything and say help us .

We came up with Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn named for Alexander Hamilton , an Indies native .  We also found that he had published works in 3 volumes called the Federalists Papers .  Why the natives still speak of him was never really figured out. In and throughout, the phrase hard word appears many times, and I don't know why, but all the hard word phrases were italicized.  Fort Hamilton is located at the foot of the Verrazano Bridge, opposite of John Paul jones Park.

Italics & Underlining Italics and underlining are like flashers on road signs. They make you take notice. Italics and underlining can be used interchangeably, although usually underlining is used when something is either hand written or typed; if using a computer you can italicize. If you start using italics, don't switch to underlining within the same document. Italics or underlining are used most often: for titles of longer works: books, magazines, newspapers, films, TV shows, a complete symphony, plays, long poems, albums: Albert Borgmann's book, Crossing the Postmodern Divide the TV show Frasier the film It Happened One Night the magazine Adirondack Life the newspaper The Miami Herald Longfellow's poem Evangeline the Beatles album Abbey Road Italics or underlining are also used for titles of paintings, sculptures, ships, trains, aircraft, and spacecraft: Van Gogh's painting Starry Night Daniel Chester French's sculpture The Spirit of Life U.S.S. Saratoga Orient Express Air Force One Apollo 13 Microsoft Word Tip: Shorter works, such a book chapters, articles, sections of newspapers, short stories, poems, songs, and TV episodes are placed in quotation marks. Neither italics nor quotation marks are used with titles of major religious texts, books of the Bible, or classic legal documents: the Bible Pentateuch the Torah Magna Carta the Koran the Declaration of Independence Use italics or underlining when using words from another language: Yggdrasil avatar Yahweh sabra jyotish bon vivant Tip: Many foreign words have become absorbed into our language and should not be italized or underlined. When in doubt, consult the dictionary. Also, common Latin abbreviations should not be italicized or underlined: etc. i.e. p.s. viz. Use italics or underlining to emphasize, stress, or clarify a word or letter in a sentence or when using a word as a linguistic symbol rather than for its meaning: It was the first time I felt appreciated by my children. I asked you to articulate your findings, not create a flow chart. He claimed his data to be accurate, but accurate is a word he often interprets loosely. My daughter's report card showed five B's, two B+'s and one glorious A. Exercise 5: Italics & Underlining

I'm really starting to think that BP would not have buried anything that would have been disturbed.  Like copely, he had to know there was a redesign committee and I think he buried it somewhere there where it would not be disturbed.  Now...... Who wants to come to Brooklyn?  I know some (a lot of you) don't agree, but it'll be fun!!!!! Fox, try again?  I gots a feeling!

Boogie: I would love to come down to Brooklyn given enough notice.  I'm assuming you mean sometime after the ground thaws?  I'm up in Albany, and as I haven't been to the city since re-locating up here I don't know how long it takes from here.  I normally take a train in from my Uncle's house in CT.  With enough notice I would likely try to get a visit in with my Uncle and then take a train to the city from there like I used to. Let me know when you pick a date to dig and I'll see what I can do. And: Would he have known there was a re-design coming to Copley?  Was that common knowledge when he buried these?  I've been studying the Boston idea with the thought that he would not have know such information.  Like I've said in the Verse #11 thread already I think the library courtyard an unlikely spot because he could have easily been stopped, not because of it's redesign.  The Copley idea rings for me at the very least as a starting point if not the acctual burial location. BP thought these would have been found long ago, I think the use of potentially movable objects like trees stems from his thought that these would be found long before a tree was cut down or fell on it's own.

I like trees as markers, but not for burial sites.  Too many roots. As far as copely goes, I believe I read somewhere that a committee was formed in the 70's to try to make Copely Square better.  This book was BP's baby.  I would like to think he did his homework on burial sites. Here's what I've come up with.  Just to keep it fresh I'll post it.  (I've never kept a notebook- ) 1 In the shadow 2 Of the grey giant-( WTC ) 3 Find the arm that 4 Extends over the slender path( Verrazano-Narrows ) 5 In summer 6 You'll often hear a whirring sound( boats-fishing ) 7 Cars abound( above on bridge ) 8 Although the sign 9 Nearby 10 Speaks of Indies native( Alexander Hamilton ) 11 The natives still speak 12 Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. 13 Take twice as many east steps as the hour 14 Or more ( 22 steps east from base of bridge ) 15 From the middle of one branch 16 Of the v ( concrete bridge support sections ) 17 Look down 18 And see simple roots 19 In rhapsodic man's soil( Gerschwin-JPJ Park-Brooklyn side ) 20 Or gaze north 21 Toward the isle of B.( north-beyond GAZEbo is Bedloe's Isle )

My thoughts- st louis location Gray giant-giant granite blocks that spell "ZOO" at the south entrance whirring in summer?-rotating large gates to get in the zoo-lots of people in the summer The "arm"?---train tracks go over small paths(zoo train) Cars abound--Huge parking lot just across the street a sign?-indies native?-----indias national animal is a tiger OF hard word?--tigers roar could be the last word a person in india could hear rhapsodic soil?-hell if i know isle of B.?--i'll think on this some more.. no reason to tell me i'm nuts--already know it

1983 After residents and businesses formed the Copley Square Centennial Committee, the City launched a series of public workshops to establish guidelines for a new park. It's likely that BP knew about the redesign, but probably not until AFTER the book was published.

boogieman wrote:: I like trees as markers, but not for burial sites.  Too many roots. As far as copely goes, I believe I read somewhere that a committee was formed in the 70's to try to make Copely Square better.  This book was BP's baby.  I would like to think he did his homework on burial sites. Here's what I've come up with.  Just to keep it fresh I'll post it.  (I've never kept a notebook- ) 1 In the shadow 2 Of the grey giant-( WTC ) 3 Find the arm that 4 Extends over the slender path( Verrazano-Narrows ) 5 In summer 6 You'll often hear a whirring sound( boats-fishing ) 7 Cars abound( above on bridge ) 8 Although the sign 9 Nearby 10 Speaks of Indies native( Alexander Hamilton ) 11 The natives still speak 12 Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. 13 Take twice as many east steps as the hour 14 Or more ( 22 steps east from base of bridge ) 15 From the middle of one branch 16 Of the v ( concrete bridge support sections ) 17 Look down 18 And see simple roots 19 In rhapsodic man's soil( Gerschwin-brooklyn side ) 20 Or gaze north 21 Toward the isle of B.( north-beyond GAZEbo is Bedloe's Isle ) the confirmer is that Rhapsodic Man is 'John Paul Jones' nothing was bigger than Led Zepllin in 1980.

Yeah, I know Trohn.  But if the casque is where I think it is, we don't need JJP Park.  It is a nice tie-in.  Know what?  I'll take either or.

boogieman wrote:: Yeah, I know Trohn.  But if the casque is where I think it is, we don't need JJP Park.  It is a nice tie-in.  Know what?  I'll take either or. I'm confused, I thought that you thought it was by the bridge near the gazebo in JPJ park?

Shseverin,  Sorry if my map above is confusing.  The spot is almost exactly against the bridge support, directly in line with the gazebo and Liberty island which is north.  At the foot of branch #5. edit: drawing with the mouse I find to be most difficult!

believe me my boogie friend, I would love to visit the apple again and focus on digging this thing up...especially since you gave the little one the "key" but alas, I do not see that happening anytime in the near future.  I have the fondest memories of meeting a fellow hunter at the spot we thought had to be it and actually digging for a SECRET casque.  Empty handed and a bit muddied but wow... what an afternoon.  Take him up on his offer Ringo...and go help him unearth the 3rd of 12.

Fox, luv your enthusiasm.   :app)  Because of the lack of Image (12) evidence, I can see why their aren't too many people enthused about it. But we have the Verrazano itself, which is the arch that contains the entire image within.  We have the Twin Tower from which you can find the bridge extending over the Narrows path, er , slender path .  We have Lady Liberty ( Isle of Bedloe) which is in line with the x spot and the gazebo when you gaze north .  BTW, in 81', the crown was open to the public in the Statue of Liberty, from there, the two biggest things you would see are the Twin Towers and the Verrazano Bridge.  There are domed churches throught the area, just not at the bridge.  But we do have an eagle, which is from Trohn's pic of the Fort Hamilton symbol.  Do you still have that Trohn?  There are a lot of things in Image12 that have slowed me down and confused us a little.  But still, the Verse fits pretty good.  We really didn't have to force anything here.  Fits like a glove.  Ringo and anyone else, let's pick a weekend in April and give it a shot....... Again, the slender path, and not a slender path makes it the Narrows Inlet . Oh yeah, here's a pick of a clock tower on the Fort Hamilton side of the bridge. hxxp://www.brownstoner.com/fnydome85f.jpg

Boogie: I'ld prefer if we could try to make it a Sunday.  I always have Sunday and Monday off which would give me a day of rest after getting all dirty digging it up.  If a Sunday can work for you I'ld like to shoot for one of the last two weekends.  I haven't figured out when I'm going to try to go scout out Boston with my camera I'm trying to coordinate to get a friend along and although I'm hoping for the end of March that might end up being the begining of April. As I haven't followed this thread too closely I'm going to go back and read this more thourghly so I can understand your thought process.  I do really like your "map" you posted the other day.  It sounds like you know what you're doing.  And even if you're wrong I'll be a nice opportunity to see your thoughts first hand from the location you picked and see what we can learn from the experience.  Although I certainly hope you're right.  Either way I'm looking forward to the dig. Here's to hoping we find that third one! --Ringo

This is what has convinced me that we are in the right place for v10.  I think BP had only one tower in image12 because if he had two, it would have given it away.  And I mean the day the book came out.  By putting one tower there, he caused at least 29 pages and 6+ years of discussion in this forum alone. My employers owned the WTC.  I've been there a million times.  Saw that view hundreds of times. Look at the photo above and read the first four lines of V10.  Can I hear a loud Eureka? It was from here that I tried to piece it all together.  Indies native Hamilton right there on Brooklyn soil.  John Paul Jones (Led Zeppelin) and Brooklyn born Gerschwin (Rhapsody In Blue) are both Rhapsodic men.  The tall rectangular shape in image12, Tower Two, the only of the two that had an observation deck on top.  The face of the Statue of Liberty, she sits due north of the Verrazano.  Like we all have said, you can squeeze anything into anything if you want to.  This just feels too good. edit: anytime in April is good for me!

i sure hope you guys find one!! that would be sooooooo sweet! i think you're right about the WTC building and the bridge! i'm not likely to be able to go on any hunts, so i'm living vicariously through you guys! you  are so patient! call in sick! lol crossing my fingers!!!

Are you sure?  I have safety vests and hard hats for everyone!

I'll be entering my third trimester in April so I won't be doing any digging.... but I would like to join you for moral support. Let me know the date/ time. Shseverin11

shseverin11 wrote:: I'll be entering my third trimester in April so I won't be doing any digging.... but I would like to join you for moral support. Let me know the date/ time. Congrats! Future treasure creator.

Or a future trearure hunter if this hunt is still going on.

think what a great story that would be shseverin11!

I hope we don't have to wait that long to dig up a casque!

Hi Boogie, When you'll be there, don't forget to check my theories (under the last (22-23) V shape of the Verrazano's Bridge, sadly I lost all my pics)... (I think you new spot is inside a closed parking area)

eljayo wrote:: Hi Boogie, When you'll be there, don't forget to check my theories (under the last (22-23) V shape of the Verrazano's Bridge, sadly I lost all my pics)... (I think you new spot is inside a closed parking area) Hey Eljayo, haven't heard from you in a while.  I just got back from a Florida vacation with the family, trying to catch up.  (nowhere near FOY )  BTW, welcome aboard Ty.  I can tell where you get your smarts from...momma shecrab! Back to v10.  I think that the new spot is so so simple, that it just may be the spot.  I know for a fact that the spot is a No-Parking Zone.  But from recent images from local.live.com there seems to be a construction container sitting on my X.  I'll do some recon before anyone waists their time coming to dig. As far as the 22-23 v shapes located just under the roadway of the bridge, it doesn't really fit the wording of the verse.  The verse says from the middle of one branch of the v and not one of the vees out of, let's say, hundreds of vees. Take twice as many east steps as the hour or more from the middle of one branch of the v I welcome anyone who would like to disect this verse a little more.  I'm sure I'm still missing something.....

Not that anyone needs to be reminded of this, but New York was built on top of itself many many times because parts of the original were built on swamps.  It is a city rich with history that leads in many directions.

Did I say something confusing?  I read a book published in the 1920's called "Gangs of New York," which mostly dealt with the five points and hudson river area, but which started with a great deal of info about where N.Y.C. was founded, as well as the criminals which made it what it is today.  Or were you talking about a different city?

Kuh-Lai-Bah-Ti wrote:: Did I say something confusing?  I read a book published in the 1920's called "Gangs of New York," which mostly dealt with the five points and hudson river area, but which started with a great deal of info about where N.Y.C. was founded, as well as the criminals which made it what it is today.  Or were you talking about a different city? I was only curious as to why you had brought it up now, even though it is a valid point.  I'm not suggesting to go back and look at past posts, but almost all of Manhattan's coastline, as well as Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx. Liberty Island, Ellis Island..have been built up from landfill dug out from digging the massive tunnels for rail and road purposes.  The spot where Peter Minuit bought NY from the Indians had waves crashing onto it back then.  Now it is a few hundred yards from the water.  Foundations for the Belt Parkway and Shore Rd that run under the Verrazano were constructed from landfill.  I guess the original NY wasn't that big after all.

I didn't bring up anything to do with NYC--- you did.  I was just responding with a general comment.  Well what was it before it was a landfill?  According to one source, it was mostly swamp and marsh, which the east coast used to have a lot of near its beaches.  Heck, Jesse Pomeroy, a 14-year-old murderer got one of his victims in a swamp that isn't even on boston's coastline anymore.  They get drained and built on, then when stuff falls down, they build on top of it. Or they used to.

i was looking at a statue in milwaukee, and noticed that the word "united" was written "vnited", which reminded me of the "v" in verse 10 in the book. is the v in the phrase "of the v", the same size as the "v" in the word "natives", or does it just look different because it is all alone?  and then, because i was looking at a statue with a horse, i thought the 'v" (in the verse)  looked like a horseshoe. ... or a "u"

This is the best match I have for the first two lines of verse. In the shadow Of the grey giant This is the USS Yorktown (the grey giant). It is parked in Charleston in Patriot's Point. Here is the Wikipedia link. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CV-10)

The next two lines are: Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge is the "arm" and Cooper River is "the slender path". Here is the Wikipedia link to this Charleston bridge. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ravenel,_Jr._Bridge

The next three line are: In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound My best guess "a whirring sound" is the ships at shipping docks nearby or the shipyard itself, especially with the association to the next line of verse. But, I am not sure. And why "In summer"? Have we strayed too far from Marion park? Has anyone ever been in this part of Charleston especially in Summer?

The next 5 lines are all point to the larger Calhoun monument in Marion Square. Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. There are Wikipedia pages for both Marion Square and John C. Calhoun. "the sign nearby Speaks of Indies native" is the John C. Calhoun Monument. I don't know about you guys, but I have tried to backwards engineer the last line a bunch of times over the last two years. It seems like I have gone through hundreds of Google pages looking for a "Hard" reference and a quantity of 3 match. It was such a relief to finally find this match the way I was suppose to (with the city and park i was already in). The 3 Vols. turn out to be three simple strong words posted on the monument plaque. "Truth Justice and the Constitution".

The next two liines are: Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more I don't think this is meant to be really tricky. A simple take on these lines could mean take 2 steps (maybe big steps). I believe "as the hour" is "1". So "twice as many" will make it two steps. So the interpretaion would then be two steps from the east side away from the start. "Or more I am guessing means that the casque is closer to two and a half steps or maybe three steps. Not too large of a search pattern . Any thoughts on this one? Continuing to the next lines: From the middle of one branch Of the v This is where we may move back away from the final spot for a moment. This is part of that tricky section scrambling BP did. We haven't gotten to the final spot yet, these lines should fill that gap. If you look at the aerial of the park the "V" becomes more obvious. There is a permanent feature in Marion Square, it is an "X". If you pick parts of the "X" you can get a few "Vs". "From the middle of one branch" will mean half way from the middle of the "V" (or "X") and the end in the corners of the park. The cool thing is it fits perfectly. If you walk to halfway ("middle") up the northeast path("branch") from the middle of the park you will be straight across from the battle monument (which is the final spot area).

Next lines. Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil We just left half way along the one branch of the "V". Now we are to "Look down". On the base steps themselves are the names of historic battles. "simple roots" can be the simple names of battles (nothing else displayed down here) and roots may be the battles themselves are in a sense the cause of the monument. I kinda have a feel for these three liines of verse, but I was hoping you guys you work these lines out with a good explanation. Any ideas?

Last lines. Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. These may be part of that section scrambling that we encounter in the verses here and there. We have jumped back to city landmarks. If you look on the previous picture of the bridge you'll see it lands on an island north of Marion Square. Although the island is named Drum Island I believe the "isle of B." may be actually referring to the isle of the B ridge (Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge).

Unknown: It seems like I have gone through hundreds of Google pages looking for a "Hard" reference and a quantity of 3 match. How is John C. Calhoun an "Indies Native?" This made no sense to me at all.  Quote from Wiki: "Calhoun was born the 18th (or 19th) of March, 1782 the fourth child of Patrick Calhoun and his wife Martha (nee Caldwell). His father was an Ulster-Scot who emigrated from County Donegal to the Thirteen Colonies where he met Martha, herself the daughter of a Protestant Irish immigrant father" Ireland may indeed be primitive in spots but it's definitely not the Indies. I found an interesting one when I was looking at this verse as possibly describing Niagara Falls. Him of Hard word = Jacques Cartier.  Cartier is a famous diamond seller, and diamond is the hardest substance we have. Jacques Cartier made exactly 3 trips to the Niagara Falls area...him of HARD word (Cartier) in 3 Vols--guess what Vols means in French? Flights. (as in Trips . Journies. As in he took flight to America.) so you see, you can find numerous connections if you think outside the box a bit.

here is a reference i found of "hard word" through a roundabout way from st. louis, dutch, new nederland, new york........not many can beat me in being distracted, lol "Full Title: The New World of Words: or, Universal English Dictionary. Containing An Account of the Original or Proper Sense, and Various Significations of all Hard Words derived from other Languages, viz. Hebrew, Arabick, Syriack, Greek, Latin, Italian, French, Spanish, British, Saxon, Danish, Dutch, &c. as now made use of in our English Tongue. Together with A Brief and Plain Explication of all Terms" found here: hxxp://18thcenturyreadingroom.wordpress ... ords-1706/ which made me think of dictionaries and then i read up on Noah Webster, which it seems he did 3 volumes..... "After about a decade of preparation, Merriam issued the entirely new Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (familiarly known as Webster's Third, or W3) in September 1961, edited by Philip Babcock Gove and containing over 450,000 entries, including over 50,000 new words and as many new senses for existing words." hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster's_Dictionary and then i found this American Sign Museum, in Hartford Ct, where webster lived: hxxp://www.signmuseum.com/histories/may1981.php "although the sign"............from the verse "fittingly, the museum is attached to the homestead of the man who, perhaps throughout our nation's history, has most realized the power of the written word — Noah Webster." also found this: hxxp://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... _8IaRVcltU but haven't had time to check anything....too many ideas, too little time just some more whacky research, probably nothing, but still interesting

A first response to the term "Indies Native" brought to mind, Alexander Hamilton, who was actually born in the West Indies... AP

Hmmm.....I've heard of this guy. Isn't he on the $10 bill? Just kidding AP.  I'm so exhausted reading about this guy.

A "Grey Giant" sounds like "Giant in Gray"...Wade Hampton, a confederate general...famous in South Carolina. He has several statues... ..Just thinking on line... AP

boogieman wrote:: Hmmm.....I've heard of this guy. Isn't he on the $10 bill? Just kidding AP.  I'm so exhausted reading about this guy. Hmmm....$10 bill...isn't that what they used to call a ONE dollar bill?

i looked up composers on coney island and found woody guthrie lived on mermaid avenue.  he  wrote "This land was made for me and you", which goes with the immigration theme, i think. and there was the Half Moon Hotel with a great mosaic dome: hxxp://www.coneyislandhistory.org/mrconey/ i haven't found a great picture of the mosaic dome yet, but it was on the west side of coney island, i believe, like where guthrie lived.. it was demolished in 1996. the arch with the mosaics (in the picture)  could be for half of a moon or maybe a reference for henry hudson's ship the Half Moon also, while i'm back on coney island, wanted to mention luna park: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/47967505@N00/316762895/

Well, just got back from JPJ Park.  No digging.  I found out two things.  The gazebo has only been around 6 or 7 years.  And there is no way to get to the foot of that V support.  Scary *warning* signs and cameras all around, and securely fenced off. Had a nice chat with a couple in their late 60's that have lived there all their lives.  I startled them a bit with my approach but settled in to a nice conversation.  Funny how people get into it when you convince them you are not a nut job. (fooled them huh?) The spiked wrought iron fence, with some barbed wire at the corners of the park, had only been installed after 9/11.  According to them, there was only a 4 foot chain linked fence there in 82' up until the new fence went up.  The cannon balls and the JPJ monument were at the new gazebo's location and moved to their present postion shortly after the bridge was constructed in the sixties.  So, every thing but the gazebo and the fence is the same since 82'.  I will need to contact the Bridge and tunnel Authority to see if that area by the V was accessible back then.  Nothing to hop a 4 ft fence in 82' and no real security back then either., but I'm thinking the "Gaze north" line tells us to look in the direction of the park itself. Really nice park.  i like it. edit: and BTW, somebody, for reasons I don't know, dug a hole at the southern most point of the octagon shaped gazebo.  Looked to be a month or two old.  fresh weeds growing in small sink hole. um....

boogieman wrote:: edit: and BTW, somebody, for reasons I don't know, dug a hole at the southern most point of the octagon shaped gazebo.  Looked to be a month or two old.  fresh weeds growing in small sink hole. um.... must be those few people here that keep telling us that JPJ is all wrong

I have discovered that there was probably never a time that one could just walk up to the V support on the JPJ side of the Verrazano.  One may have been able to on the Fort hamilton side, but not with a shovel.  This coming from an old timer with the Port Authority where i work. Now i want to look at the ARM THAT EXTENDS.  An arm is described in the dictionary as something that may be connected to something larger.  Here, the arm that extends has to start from land, if it extends over the Narrows, right?  Back to Trohn's rhapsodic man, John Paul Jones' and his soil. hxxp://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1 This corner of the park is very secluded.  Pretty much can only be viewed by passerbys from the road. (Shore Rd and the Belt Parkway)       22 east steps or more, from the middle of one branch of the v.  gaze north?  North side of the fence, south side of fence prohibited.  I think if you read the verse while looking at the above link, it kind of makes some sense. Just plugging away.

I think this verse goes to NY though it could go with STL but I do not think so. I think verse 6 goes to STL.

I'm really liking the Cartier theory, shecrab. Monumental figure in Canadian history... Hard word... Canadian casque... Hmmm... Speaking of Canada... Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. There is a large island not too far north of Montreal on the river, called Ile B ouchard or B oucherville Island, depending on what map you consult. Either way, it could be our isle of B. How could you see an island that far away by gazing north? One theory might be that you could see it from the top of Mount Royal. I've been up there, and the view is wonderful. They even have pull-offs with coin-operated telescopes, if I recall. Interestingly, there is a cluster of islands much closer to Montreal, most of which make up "Parc des Iles-De- B oucherville," right across from Boucherville, QC.

i can't find the post of shecrabs that talked about cartier and hard word....could someone tell me where it is? boogieman, does the john lacorte memorial have anything that points to the picture?  it has a picture of verrazano on it, do you think the verse could be talking about that?

John LaCorte?  I have no idea.  Image 12, to me, has the Verrazano (nice pic BTW slappy), II WTC, and Lady Liberty.  I wpould love to put them all somewhere more definitive, but..  Verse10 has the slender path, the Indies native, rhapsodic man, the grey giant.  I'll get this @#$*_%#  of a  @#$%* soon!  With all of your help.

Slappy, Shecrab made that Cartier connection on the 13th "page" of the Verse-5 thread. AP

Uh Oh!  Found another connection to a rhapsodic man.  Longfellow!  Look at his middle name and then look at the fort on the Staten Island side of the Verrazano... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wadsworth_Longfellow hxxp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... tnG=Search

Great catch! it keeps the bridge, is south of Bedlows island. fits the verse. and that end of the bridge has a lot more trees and wild areas for hiding things...

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. In 1913, ground was broken by President William Howard Taft for a proposed National American Indian Memorial that was to be built on the site of Fort Tompkins. The monument was to include a 165-foot tall statue of an American Indian on the bluff overlooking the Narrows, but difficulties in fundraising and the advent of World War I precluded fruition of the plan.

thank you animal_painter for that post above boogieman, but the fort didn't open to the public 'til 1997 and von briesen was german, don't we think this picture is russian? is there something at south beach, because i remember i was going to check that area, but i must have got sidetracked. i was  looking over toward long island again, because of "find the arm that extends", thinking like, the arm gets longer, long island, lol and "in summer", ..................vacation, beach but then, i liked new jersey too, because i think i read where the whole state was divided into squares ( i think it was new jersey...i've  been bouncing around everywhich a way again) and that also because i am trying to keep image 9 in mind too for the verse

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. hxxp://www.nps.gov/fora/forteachers/tho ... report.htm here tom has 3 books of what he found and saw, and he published them that way was there ever a sign that said this, i dont remember any of the signs, and what they said

boogieman, but the fort didn't open to the public 'til 1997 Thats true but... The name "Fort Wadsworth" is also sometimes used to denote the residential neighborhood surrounding the former fort, the neighborhood south of Rosebank, west of Shore Acres and north of South Beach. This neighborhood once had a station on the South Beach Branch of the Staten Island Railway; service on this branch ceased in 1953. [/quote]

malted i saw that with fort hamilton, that the area around it is called fort hamilton. i have been looking at all three areas, new jersey, staten island and brooklyn. does anyone know where the word "gowanus" comes from? i'm still looking for the definition, but i saw there is a cobble hill around it, which made me think of the image. around one of the parks i saw a punch road and i can't remember where it was, it could have been in montreal or anywhere, but i did notice a strange resemblance to image 9 and this guy: hxxp://www.bridportmuseum.co.uk/bp_imag ... udy001.jpg lol, i'm not sure if i'm serious or not, lol i'm sure someone has the book of "abroad in america" ...is there any reference to "him of Hard word in 3 vols" ? look at this arch, it is said to be in Park Slope which is close to Prospect Park........look at the vertical lines and blocks hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/wei ... train.html and just in case that is the arch, thought i'd look up this, and the lady is in the yellow block and so is prospect park.... hxxp://www.nycsubway.org/articles/indcolor.html

slappybuns wrote:: boogieman, but the fort didn't open to the public 'til 1997 and von briesen was german, don't we think this picture is russian? is there something at south beach, because i remember i was going to check that area, but i must have got sidetracked. i was  looking over toward long island again, because of "find the arm that extends", thinking like, the arm gets longer, long island, lol Slappy, We've already confirmed that the entire area is loaded with Russian history. The fort has been called Fort wadsworth since 1864.  The surrounding neighborhood is also called Fort wadsworth.  Who's Von Briesen?  I was referring to Fort Wadsworth and Longfellow. Henry "Wadsworth" Longfellow, from Wikipedia: Though much of his work is categorized as lyric poetry, Longfellow experimented with many forms, including hexameter and free verse.[59] His published poetry shows great versatility, utilizing anapestic and trochaic forms, blank verse, heroic couplets, ballads and sonnets.[60] Typically, Longfellow would carefully consider the subject of his poetic ideas for a long time before deciding on the right metrical form for it.[61] Much of his work is recognized for its melody-like musicality.[62] As he says, "what a writer asks of his reader is not so much to like as to listen".[63] He sounds like a rhapsodic man to me.  And where is South beach?

slappybuns wrote:: boogieman, but the fort didn't open to the public 'til 1997 and von briesen was german, don't we think this picture is russian? is there something at south beach, because i remember i was going to check that area, but i must have got sidetracked. i was  looking over toward long island again, because of "find the arm that extends", thinking like, the arm gets longer, long island, lol Slappy, We've already confirmed that the entire area is loaded with Russian history. The fort has been called Fort wadsworth since 1864.  The surrounding neighborhood is also called Fort wadsworth.  Who's Von Briesen?  I was referring to Fort Wadsworth and Longfellow.    Henry "Wadsworth" Longfellow, from Wikipedia: Though much of his work is categorized as lyric poetry, Longfellow experimented with many forms, including hexameter and free verse.[59] His published poetry shows great versatility, utilizing anapestic and trochaic forms, blank verse, heroic couplets, ballads and sonnets.[60] Typically, Longfellow would carefully consider the subject of his poetic ideas for a long time before deciding on the right metrical form for it.[61] Much of his work is recognized for its melody-like musicality.[62] As he says, "what a writer asks of his reader is not so much to like as to listen".[63] He sounds like a rhapsodic man to me.  And where is South beach?

animal painter wrote:: Great find, Slappy! Even the icy blue color of the sky is similar to image 12... this is all the arch we need. I don't remember how we decided that the Indies native had to be from the West or East indies.  The native american indian sounds good to me. from maltedfalcon: In 1913, ground was broken by President William Howard Taft for a proposed National American Indian Memorial that was to be built on the site of Fort Tompkins. The monument was to include a 165-foot tall statue of an American Indian on the bluff overlooking the Narrows, but difficulties in fundraising and the advent of World War I precluded fruition of the plan.

i meant the inner arch in the image with the blocks von briesen is the park on one side of fort wadsworth.

slappybuns wrote:: i'm sure someone has the book of "abroad in america" ...is there any reference to "him of Hard word in 3 vols" ? Both Siskel and I read the entire book, cover to cover, looking for other possible references and came up empty. Just the two direct quotes already mentioned.

thanks forest malted, i can't find the post where you told how to do a search....................lol....................just kidding! are we positive that "him of hard word" is hamilton? i've been doing searches on "hymn" and hard word, also composers of hymns just seems those words have to be on whatever or wherever the cask is. think i read that a library at prospect park is shaped like a book with the spine facing the park, this would make a "v" and a library has lots of "hard words" and "branches", not sure if any composers are close to that. just thinking out loud, boogieman, will probably end up back at john paul jones, but have to get there by this "route, root"

Just to throw it out, The Age of FDR is a very famous 3 volume set...

The Age of Franklin D. Roosevelt volume 1:  the crisis of the old order volume 2: the coming of the new deal volume 3: the politics of upheaval just in case we need to know the words

slappybuns wrote:: just in case we need to know the words Do they seem hard to you?

Here's what I'm thinking... The first four lines do lead to a road.  That's I 278, and the Verrazano is part of that.  After what Slappy said, the next line is key, "In summer". In summer, in summer, in summer! The seasons in the North East are very distinct.  There are winter activities and summer activities.  Spring and fall eliminate any winter activity but you can still cast a fishing reel, go boating, cycling, running, and even visit an amusement park. (Coney Island) Did BP put "summer" in there to specify a certain event that only happens around the Verrazano in the summer?  Or is it something you can do in the North East only during the summer?  Swim, sun bathe, neither of which cause a whirring sound.  Plus, on a beach, there are no "cars abound", a phrase that has to mean near the bridge itself. humm... We've all speculated quite well ,I may add, as to Hamilton, the V, rhapsodic man, and the isle of B, but without "in summer" and "whirring" we really can't nail this down.  I think that is how close we really are.

Helicopter ride. That takes care of both "summer" and "whirring."

You know, that's the first thing i thought of 4 years ago.  You can take helicopter rides in the winter as well, just not in a snow storm.

I have been looking at hundreds of photos of the Statue of Liberty.  (Never seen it in person.) In photos it looks really more green than grey. Why call it grey?...Are we looking at the right "giant"? AP

Hey AP.  In image12, there's that grey rectangular shape in the arch window.  I have been taking that to be Two WTC (or tower two, 110 stories, GIANT), where there used to be an observation deck on the roof.  I believe BP wanted us there to see the Verrazano extending over the slender Narrows path.  The Statue of Liberty in the image puts us in that harbor.  There is a photo of that view somewhere here in this thread.  If BP put both towers in image12, this would have been solved 20 years ago. edit: the statue of liberty is made from copper-which turns green over time.

Hey there, Boogie. Thanks. I see now how the giant does not necessarily refer to the Statue of Liberty. I have also been looking at the line "him of Hard word in 3 Vols." The word "Hard" can also mean "Steele". ..as in "Sir Richard Steele" , who co-wrote "The Tatler", the"Spectator" and "The Guardian". ..But what connection can he have to an area in New York?...Why would the "natives" still speak of him? AP

boogieman wrote:: You know, that's the first thing i thought of 4 years ago.  You can take helicopter rides in the winter as well, just not in a snow storm. No doubt. But are they offered in the winter?  I know when I was using this verse for Niagara Falls, that's what I found--that they aren't offered in the wintertime--only the summer.

FWIW, the inscription inside the Statue of Liberty is titled "The New Colossus".  Colossus = Giant.  Here's a link to a Wikipedia article: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_ ... nscription

Unknown: I have also been looking at the line "him of Hard word in 3 Vols." The word "Hard" can also mean "Steele". ..as in "Sir Richard Steele" , who co-wrote "The Tatler", the"Spectator" and "The Guardian" There are also the authors: Jared Diamond and Oliver Stone...did they write noteworthy volumes that the New York folk would be talking about?

Jambone wrote:: FWIW, the inscription inside the Statue of Liberty is titled "The New Colossus".  Colossus = Giant.  Here's a link to a Wikipedia article: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_ ... nscription The New Colossus Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Emma Lazarus, 1883

Someone with some free time on their hands (i.e., not me) can browse these to look for NYC connections: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_(surname) hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_(disambiguation)#people hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_(surname)

"in summer you'll often hear a whirring sound" makes me think of fans, like baseball fans, or i guess any kind of sport fans, or  skating, hockey, bicycles.. boogieman, i read this: "Interstate 278 runs from U.S. Route 1/9 near Elizabeth, New Jersey over the Goethals Bridge, through Staten Island," OVER "the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and through Brooklyn and Queens, and across the Triborough Bridge into the Bronx to end at I-95 at the Bruckner Interchange. " so it goes over the bridge.......does the belt parkway go under the bridge? i can't tell. three, triple

makes me think of cicadas

slappybuns wrote:: so it goes over the bridge.......does the belt parkway go under the bridge? i can't tell. directly under it.  The Belt Parkway runs from a few miles north of the Verrazano, then under it, and up to the Van Wyk Exspessway at JFK Airport. AP's got me thinking of Hard word .  Steel, wood, rock, stone, diamond.... hxxp://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/hard Could not find anything from FB's post.

I am doing a bit of research on Nelson Rock efeller...since there is a park named after him "in the shadow of the grey giant". There is a 3-volume book entitled: "Transactions of the Rockefeller Family Association"... AP

Oooo, good! Him of hard word may be "that rocky feller." How very punny.

I have been looking for an hour and can't find when Rockefeller Park opened in Battery Park City.  Construction started on the World Financial Center in the fall of 81' and the park is just to the north of there.  The land was all created by the construction of the WTC in 73' but there are no dates, that I can find, on the park itself. I still think we are at the Narrows but we've got to check everything.  BTW, there's another Rockerfeller Park within the Cleveland Cultural Gardens.  Can we run in circles or what?

i like that animal painter , i tried to find some pictures of it, but mostly just found newer art sculptures so far. i was going a different route (root), lol since the picture has 11 o'clock and the verse says "take twice as many east steps as the hour", i went to e. 22nd street and "gramercy park" is right there, lol get it?  grammar, hard word, gramercy, lol i find this interesting at the brooklyn marine park: (close to e. 22nd street brooklyn) "and the John V. Lindsay Model Airport was dedicated in 1971."  for the "whirring" and this: "and of Lenape Playground at Avenue U. " there is an avenue "V" also........gonna go look some more

Unknown: since the picture has 11 o'clock and the verse says "take twice as many east steps as the hour", i went to e. 22nd street and "grammercy park" is right there, lol get it?  grammar, hard word, grammercy, lol

hxxp://www.panoramicearth.com/2810 Here is a link to a panoramic photo of Nelson Rockefeller Park. AP

hxxp://tinyurl.com/59v34q According to this link of the book "Divided We Stand", The Nelson A. Rockefeller Park was officially dedicated in June of 1996.  Still, the Rockefeller name and presence in New York City for generations, is unquestioned. AP

the statue is facing france right?  so does that mean if  her left arm was straight  (the tablet), she would be pointing to manhattan? and the other arm to staten island? extend: # To open or straighten (something) out; unbend: extended the legs of the folding table.

yes, if you could unfold her left arm and she pointed perpendicular to her body She would point almost directly at the site of the world trade center.

thanks malted you can see why i haven't found anything, lol.

her other arm is extended of course and is pointing up straight ahead of her is staten island and to her right is new jersey

And she is facing Brooklyn.

boogieman wrote:: BTW, there's another Rockerfeller Park within the Cleveland Cultural Gardens.  Can we run in circles or what? You see FB?

Ah, but is there a lion sculpture there? And did Olmsted design the park?

THis is most likely the verse that goes with the NYC image. If however it turns out Verse 6 does not go with Image 9 then this would be the next most likely match. I do not think this goes to STL. Image 9 seams to be indicateing Forest Park and less strongly the Muny/Pagoda Area. This verse could also fit Forest Park but it would be a streach of the imagination to make it work. I think the thing that ties the image and verse together is the "gray giant" I will look over this image soon to try to find a potential dig site hidden in the image.

Thanks.

just an idea guys, but maybe it means "find the arm that extends over the narrows", and not the bridge...and i'm thinking "in summer"..........        "to reside during the summer, of or relating to summer"...................means like shore road, or south beach........ wouldn't that fit with what malted is saying? that's as far as i got

But what could "arm" refer to, if not the bridge?

Unknown: just an idea guys, but maybe it means "find the arm that extends over the narrows", and not the bridge...and i'm thinking "in summer"..........        "to reside during the summer, of or relating to summer"...................means like shore road, or south beach........ wouldn't that fit with what malted is saying? that's as far as i got Here's the grey giant.  Two WTC.  Hey, no antenna in image 12.... The fact that the verse reads " over the slender path " and not " into the slender path", I take it to mean it cannot be a pier or a penninsula.  It has to be a bridge.  Or something that sticks out over the path, like an arm of a legeater lamp post.

forest, the arm could be the statue"s arm......................... if that is marble instead of eye charts, seems like most of it comes from long island. i was reading about the marble on the met life building, my roundabout research. scotrocks, that maple leaf design you mention or see in image 9, could be the new york leaf design for the parks. hxxp://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260 i live to confuse....lol

Slappy, The "arm" could be something as simple as this found in Liberty State Park almost due West from the Statue of Liberty. I do not know what it is...but it could be a "sculpture" of some sort. Just thinking that it may not have to be on as grand a scale as a bridge.

Just thinking of "rhapsodic man's soil"... Of course Gershwin comes to mind. Ira or George?  Ira was born in Chinatown. George was born in Brooklyn, but grew up in the lower east side of Manhattan. Of course, BP could just be referring to somewhere in New York in general. AP

Given the choice of Ira or George, I'd choose George. He wrote "Rhapsody in Blue." Ira's input was limited to suggesting the title.

Look at this link for the lower east side of Manhattan (speaking of gershwin). Hamilton Fish Park!  This is the kind of thing that makes you nuts... I'm linking it because I still can't figure out how to save an image from local.live.com hxxp://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1

Unknown: I still can't figure out how to save an image from local.live.com Hey cool, it even looks like an arched window (sort of). Just hit the PrntScrn key on your keyboard, then paste into Windows Paint; edit, save, and post.

isnt it Alt - PrtScrn?

Just PrntScrn works for me. Alt+PrntScrn copies the particular window you're in. They both work.

"in the shadow"  .......if this is a road, could mean east, west north or south, right? (wherever shadows fall) then "grey giant"  ......liberty street or umm, time of day, times square?

while researching pic-1 and v-7, i ran across this, maybe this is what bp is saying, when he says,..........The natives still speak  Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. prob not coit tower..though columbus is there, cant read sign hard word in three vols hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmyrowla ... 1/sizes/l/

Great Idea, hard words = written in stone or metal 3 vol = 3 plaques.... definitely something to keep an eye out for...

But who is the "him" of Hard word?

forest_blight wrote:: But who is the "him" of Hard word? Speaks of Indies native, yes a bad thing not known if west or east, indies native looked up east indies most refer to, the dutch east indies, that may help with p-9

Native Americans were once called "indies" as well.  I should have saved that tidbit.  It was on page 30 something of a google search.

In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Suppose you are on the top floor of Tower Two and find the Verrazano over the Narrows, do we have to go all the way down river to the bridge to find the whirring sound?  Or can we see and hear the whirring from the WTC just from looking south in the direction of the bridge?  Battery Park... I can remember seeing Ronald Reagan arrive at the heliport at Battery Park back in 82'.  The heliport is right by the nice square clock.  It is also across the park from the National Museum of American Indians that is also right next to Alexander Hamilton's Customs House. You have a nice view of the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island (the domes).  A very nice Eagle at the granite memorial walls within Battery Park. If I coiuld only find a v and an Isle of B.  hmmm.  Wow.  Verse5 fit this so well years ago.

Unknown: Suppose you are on the top floor of Tower Two and find the Verrazano over the Narrows, do we have to go all the way down river to the bridge to find the whirring sound?  Or can we see and hear the whirring from the WTC just from looking south in the direction of the bridge?  Battery Park... I was never there, but I bet you wouldn't have been able to hear squat from the upper levels of the WTC. Too high.

Unknown: I was never there, but I bet you wouldn't have been able to hear squat from the upper levels of the WTC. Too high. Only when the helicopters lifted off and flew around the towers. isle=island or islet 2: something resembling an island esp. in its isolated or surrounded position: as a: a usually raised area within a thoroughfare, parking lot, or driveway used especially to separate or direct traffic. Island of the Wall Street Bull .  Easily viewed from Battery Park, and NORTH. hxxp://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Wall+Street+Bull&m=text

Wasn't put there til' 89'. Kind of isle to keep in mind though.

Interesting idea though.  An even more interesting tidbit regarding said bull: hxxp://gemssty.com/2007/01/01/wall-stre ... %E2%84%A2/ I thought I read somewhere that it was because Wall St stock traders would rub it for good luck in the day's trading. ...and before you ask....yes, I shined them up a bit during my visit to the big apple...

fox wrote:: It looks like the city lacks the interest in cleaning up after that bull.

ouch... = ???? That is harsh...

Touche!  Pepe Le Pue

Unknown: Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. A vexing little snippet.  The text reads "vols." -- and we've assumed it means volumes, as in books in a series.  Are we reading it correctly?  Could it mean something else? * Volunteers? * Volumes in the auditory sense -- soft, medium, loud?  This clue certainly goes to 11. * Maybe it's a non-literal suggestion, such as three Roman numerals that follow the man's name, like Rockefeller I, Rockefeller II, Rockefeller III -- which could be described cryptically as three volumes. Things that make you stroke your chin in contemplation.

I thought at one time that this verse referred to Jacques Cartier. As you know, Cartier is famous for diamonds--and nothing harder exists...so "him of hard word" might be "him of diamonds" e.g., Cartier. And if that is true, then "vols" can mean something completely different:  Cartier is French, and the French word "VOLS" means "flights". In three vols, therefore, means "in three flights".  A "flight" can mean either a set of stairs (unlikely) or three "escapes"---i.e., trips. Cartier made exactly three trips to America.

Except that "Vols." is capitalized and has a period after it, which indicates that it is (a) short for something and (b) refers to a proper noun.

"Flights" had crossed my mind too, but that interpretation seems overly obscure to me.  Jacques Cartier the explorer wasn't the man who made the name Cartier famous for diamonds.  (What diamonds he did bring back to France were actually worthless quartz crystals.)  But anyway, even then, Cartier made his voyages to the new world by boat.  As far as I know, his expeditions wouldn't be called "flights" in French or in English. FB, I like what you're saying about it being a proper noun.  Hard is also capitalized, isn't it?  Is there a connection then?

Trinity.  Three? vols?  Don't know where I'm going with this but Hamilton is buried at Trinity Church by Battery park.  The guy has an awful lot of real estate in lower manhattan!!!

hard vols? both are capitalized, do they go together?

[edit] Publication The Federalist Papers appeared in three New York newspapers: the Independent Journal, the New-York Packet, and the Daily Advertiser, beginning on October 27, 1787. Between them, Hamilton, Madison and Jay kept up a rapid pace, with at times three or four new essays by Publius appearing in the papers in a week. Garry Wills observes that the pace of production "overwhelmed" any possible response: "Who, given ample time could have answered such a battery of arguments? And no time was given."[10] Hamilton also encouraged the reprinting of the essay in newspapers outside New York state, and indeed they were published in several other states where the ratification debate was taking place. However, they were only irregularly published outside New York, and in other parts of the country they were often overshadowed by local writers.[11] ( Publius was Hamilton's code word for the Federalist Papers) I dont know if we can consider the three newspapers as volumes.  I think the verse's use of the words "still speak" would mean that the newspapers would still be around. But I do think that Hamilton is the key Indies native that we do have to work around.

Something to research... "Hard word" is a term used in reference to a dictionary.... Noah Webster was a noted figure in New York (started the first daily newspaper in NYC) who not only wrote the first American Dictionary, but also the first American school books. (Three volumes) hxxp://education.stateuniversity.com/pa ... -1843.html Is there anything pointing to Webster in New York City in our area, other than Webster Ave. ?...a statue, plaque, park....? AP

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Is Noah Webster an Indies native?  I've been twisting this part of the verse around and still come up with that the Indies native, that the sign speaks of, is the same indies native of hard word in 3 vols.

fox wrote:: hard vols? both are capitalized, do they go together? I wouldn't think so. The capitalization in the verses seems kind of arbitrary.  So I wonder if the capital V even means anything.

boogieman wrote:: Is Noah Webster an Indies native?  I've been twisting this part of the verse around and still come up with that the Indies native, that the sign speaks of, is the same indies native of hard word in 3 vols. Boogie, I keep reading the verse with BP just enjoying using the word "native" twice, not with the same reference. I agree with you about Hamilton being the "Indies native". Then the next use of "native" goes along with "him of Hard word" Here is a literary definition of "hard word" hard word: a term used in early English dictionaries to designate difficult and unfamiliar words, usually from classical or foreign languages, which had recently entered (or were thought to have entered) the language. Using this definition, it would be easy to think of the volumes as dictionaries or related reference books. Since Noah Webster is thought of as the creator of the first American dictionary, I see him as a possible candidate for our "him of Hard word"....Plus, he did much of his work in New York City. But is there any park or statue or historical marker in our NY area for Webster? AP

Boston Tea Party... they dressed up like Native Americans / Indians / Indies native

animal painter wrote:: Boogie, I keep reading the verse with BP just enjoying using the word "native" twice, not with the same reference. I agree with you about Hamilton being the "Indies native". Then the next use of "native" goes along with "him of Hard word" AP You may be right AP.  But the word although bothers me.  Why did he use this here?  Maybe the natives of where the sign is located still speak about the Indies native of Hard word.  Maybe they speak of him in 3 vols. If Hamilton is our guy, then we have three spots to look.  John Paul Jones Park, Battery Park area, and Weehawkin NJ where he was killed in a duel with Aaron Burr.  I like the slender path and the bridge, but that may be just an indication as to what direction to look when standing on top of the grey giant.  That would leave Battery Park and JPJ Park.  I think image12 matches up better with the Battery. Geez cormac, why would you want to move verse10 to Boston?

Looking for the "Isle of B"... Is "The Bronx" considered an island? New York City includes many islands. Some of the lesser known islands' names begin with the letter "B" Barren Island Belmont (U Thant) Island North and  South Brother Islands A native New Yorker would be familiar with these. AP

The Bronx is not considered an island, but a part of the Bronx, City Island, is in fact an Island located just beyond Pelham Bay Park.  City Island is surrounded by the waters of Long Island Sound and East Chester Bay.  The place is more like New England than New York, and once there it is easy to forget that you are in New York City.  Many pirate and buried treasure legends abound there, and BP would certainly have known of it's existence since he lived and worked in New York.  City Island is a major tourist attraction, with fine restaurants and other commendable reasons to visit.  It is also in the shadow of a Grey Giant:  The Throgs Neck Bridge, carrying Interstate 295 from the Bronx to Queens.  True, it is not an isle that begins with "B", at least not currently.  Some research is in order, because I seem to recall that it was not always called City Island.

i was thinking the "B" might be for bedloe island (liberty island) you live there too Kato? i imagine you've scoured battery park? but then, and this is my problem, i get distracted too easily. i've always liked the idea of noah webster for "him of hard word", and he was known as the "dictionary" guy, so what if it just means a library, you have another reference to a library in the verse, "one branch"..and i'm pretty sure the branch at bryant park was shaped like a book, so that would make a "v", but then i wouldn't know what the "isle of b" would b... there are other branches of the library. another idea i had was, "in the shadow of the grey giant", there wouldn't be much shadow at 11:00 (the time in the image), i think if you extended the shadow from the statue, it would be on manhattan also, bryant park is close to the new york times building, which is called the "gray lady", and bryant was a poet the jefferson market public library is close to washington square park, and it has a clock on the tower hxxp://freelargephotos.com/000410_s.jpg hmmm seems all the public libraries are close to a park, ugh

boogieman wrote:: Geez cormac, why would you want to move verse10 to Boston? "Arthur Fiedler (December 17, 1894 – July 10, 1979) was the long-time conductor of the Boston Pops Orchestra His recordings began in July 1935 at Boston's Symphony Hall with RCA, ......., and the first complete recording of Rhapsody in Blue by George Gershwin"... ... maybe our reference to a "rapsodic man" Boston honored him with a stylized sculpture, an oversized bust of Fiedler, near the Charles River Esplanade, and named a footbridge over Storrow Drive after him. This area is home of the free concert series that continues through the present day. "From its earliest beginnings, the North End has been cut off from Boston proper…... In Colonial days, it was known as the "Island of North Boston" " North    Isle of B  =  Isle of North B  ? Christopher Columbus Park is also south(ish) of Boston’s North End Columbus could easily relate to "Indies native"

J B Thatcher wrote about Christopher Columbus' harsh treatment of the natives... it was a 3 volume set.

Cormac wrote:: J B Thatcher wrote about Christopher Columbus' harsh treatment of the natives... it was a 3 volume set. Then what are we supposed to do with a verse that has an obvious connection to Paul Revere, the Greeks, etc.? Where would this one go?

Well remember, the verse with the obvious connection to the lincoln memorial, and Congress. turned out to be about Chicago, Not Washington DC....

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well remember, the verse with the obvious connection to the lincoln memorial, and Congress. turned out to be about Chicago, Not Washington DC.... This is annoyingly very possible. I'm going to start looking in NYC for "a green tower of lights" then.

This one's for you slappy.  Notice the connection between Gershwin and Bryant Park. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_Hall_(New_York ) If you go to flickr.com.search and search Bryant Park NYC, you will see pictures that will remind you of every image of the Secret. That link doesn't work.  Go here: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_in_Blue and click on Aeolian Hall midway down in the 1st paragraph.

Since the Statue of Liberty is indeed green, we may want to look around for another "Grey Giant" Another possible candidate for that reference may be "The Flatiron Building" on 175 Fifth Ave. Its shadow is cast on Madison Square Park, where several statues of notable people can be seen. hxxp://www.nyc-architecture.com/GRP/GRP024.htm hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatiron_Building "New York City's Flatiron building - is a grey giant of a building reaching to the sky; and forming a triangle on the ground where traffic flows around it." Just looking around... AP

Could  She  be a Green Tower of Lights ?

thanks boogieman but hey, i've had 1000 of other ideas since then, lol like, "him of hard word" sounding like american indian talk to me, i keep hearing it in my head like that, lol, so i've wasted hours on looking for an american indian, or even to sheridan who had "hard words" to say about the indians. like, "the only good indian is......" but i'm thinking now, the image is russian, so i think we have to find something russian and instead of the narrows "bridge" (the slender path), all of that around manhattan is called "the narrows", right? so i'm looking at  all bridges that might have a reference to "summer" and then i just read this, "But for real taste of Russia go to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn!" and then, i wanna keep in mind, it could still be any verse or any image, lol  ( i still think image 9 is dutch and the obvious one for new york! so i've been looking up ironworks too for that stupid dogleg, and yes i know there is one in montreal ) (there's also a building i bookmarked that reminded me of the zigzag from image 9, close to battery park, i'll see if i can find it, but i couldn't get a front view, just an angle) my problem i can't just stick to one area....maybe we should set up teams for each area (new jersey, manhattan, staten island, brooklyn and all the others) that "whirring sound" has to be an airport road or ferry, wouldn't you think? lucky my life doesn't depend on solving this...i'd be dead, lol in my notes on the fair people (if there is any value to it), the russian one has 2 for economic (which makes me think of brighton beach) and 2 informational (signs, markers....), 2 social, (1 household, 1 political, 1 environmental, 1 regional) whatever that might mean, i'm not even sure if i could figure out how i figured that out... sorry to go on so long about NOTHING!! late night and this puzzle drives me  bonkers here's the zigzag house: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/2977231 ... 141231424/

The Narrows Inlet is just that.  The part of the Hudson Bay the narrows between Brooklyn and Statin Island that lets ships into NY from the sea.  To me, The Verrazano is the only bridge that extends over the slender path.  The other bridges in NYC either cross the Husdon or East Rivers.  From there, I'm open to anything.

Another twist on rhapsodic man. Adj. 1. rhapsodic - feeling great rapture or delight ecstatic, enraptured, rapt, rapturous joyous - full of or characterized by joy; "felt a joyous abandon"; "joyous laughter"

thank you boogieman, you cleared up the "narrows" for me!

Here is a list of islands in the New York archipelago that I have compilied from various sources.  I believe it is thorough and comprehensive, meaning that just about all of the islands in and around New York Harbor have been accounted for: New York County:  Manhattan.  Upper Bay Islands: Ellis Island, Governors Island, Liberty Island. East River Islands:  Mill Rock Island, Randall's island, Roosevelt Island, U Thant Island, Ward's island. Bronx County:The Blauzes, Pelham Islands,Chimney Sweeps Islands, City Island, Hart island, Hunters Island, Rat Island, Travers Island, Twin Island, North Brother Island,  South Brother Island, Rikers Island. Queens County: Long Island, Jamaica Bay Islands, Rulers Bar Hassock Kings County: Long Island, Jamaica Bay Islands Richmond County: Staten Island, Hoffman Island, Isle of Meadows, Prall's Island, Shooters Island, Swinburne Island. New Jersey: Robbins Reef, Plum Island As you can determine, only one set of Islands, The Blauzes, begins with "B" ( and maybe North Brother Island). The Blauzes cannot be seen from the ground near the Verrazano Narrows bridge. (or even from on the bridge) My conclusions are these: Maybe the "Isle of B" is not an island at all, but something else, another double entendre or clever play on words describing another object near JPJ park.  It is also obvious to me that you cannot look north for an "Isle of B" from JPJ park, because there is no Island that begins with "B" that you can see, even if you are on the VN Bridge.  My most radical conclusion: Perhaps JPJ Park is not where the cask is buried, and the "Grey Giant" is not the VN Bridge.  This is also evidenced by the fact that no one has been able to locate an exact match of the "Russian Church" in Image 12 anywhere around Brooklyn or nearby the VN Bridge.

Has anyone ever considered the fact that this p. may only represent New York STATE and not necessarily the CITY of New York? I have a pretty good reason for thinking this:  there isnt' a "box" of latitude/longitude numbers in this P. There is only actually ONE number visible that I can see--74--but it could also be loosely seen as 79 (I'm looking at a high-res image. It could be either one.)  Both numbers are longitudes in New York State, 79 on the western side and of course, 74 on the east. However, 74 (if it is) runs north through the Adironack Mountains. 79 runs right through Niagara Falls. And if it is a 79, then Niagara Falls could very easily adapt to this p.

I had been thinking all along that the grey giant was tower two at the WTC.  In the shadows was the arm that extended over the slender path (Verrazano and narrows inlet).  The isle of B is, was, could be, Liberty island, once known as Bedloe's island which is directly north of the Verrazano. A couple of days ago I told Slappy why the Narrows was called the narrows.  That is still a fact.  BUT....While the Hudson Bay becomes the Narrows to the south, to the north it splits into two rivers, The Huson River and The East River.  Can these two rivers be considered ARMS of the Bay?  If we can do that, and I'm gonna get shot for this by Slappy who brought this up months ago, then the Hudson River may be the arm that extends over the slender PATH trains.  Two tunnels cross under the Hudson River from NJ.  One of them went directly under the WTC and still travels into ground zero today. In the shadow of. This could take us back to the church I found in Paulus Hook in downtown Jersey City close to the river. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/7355435@N04/801373514/ And the tower behind it looks familiar.  Like it belongs right next to it in image12. But that might douse my grey giant idea. EDIT:  shut up Fox

lol, boogieman! but i didn't know what "PATH" meant, do you think BP did?

Anyone in NYC knows what PATH is.  I took the PATH to Madison Square Garden last night to go to a hockey game.  It was when I went as a passenger, and not as an Inspector, that I thought of this.  It is the other tunnel that goes to the WTC.

For all of you non-New Yorkers, PATH is an acronym for Port Authority Trans Hudson.

As I saw this photo, it struck me that Ft. Wadsworth is literally in the "shadow of the grey giant". (Named for Brig. General James Wadsworth) Wikipedia: "Fort Wadsworth on Staten Island, one of the defenses of New York Harbor, also is named for the general; it is i n the shadow of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge ." I don't know if this area has been discussed yet. But is sounds like an apt reference. AP

We looked at this before.  What I like is that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow may be our rhapsodic man. But the verse doesnt make sense if the Verrazano is the grey giant.  What happens to the slender path?  Is the ARM part of the grey giant?  The bridge has three sections but they all cross over the Narrows.  If the bridge is the grey giant, we would have to find another slender path which an arm extends over.  That has been my problem with it, or maybe I mean mental block... I don't know. I also like the fact that you can see the Statue of Liberty and the WTC from Statin Island yet they are obscured from view at John Paul jones Park in Brooklyn.

Kato wrote:: For all of you non-New Yorkers, PATH is an acronym for Port Authority Trans Hudson. Which is where I have been working for the past 22 years.......

AP, i've been trying to find something that people called "grey giant", just yesterday i found where the george washington bridge was made famous by the book " "The Great Gray Bridge", ...........which is close (I think) to "The Little Red Lighthouse". couple of weeks back I found where the New York Times building was called "The Grey Lady". and i've been looking at architects named "gray, grey"........ i like the statue of liberty, because that's what the image looks like......but the shadow could be anywhere, 'cept the "slender path" has to be the "narrows" ( i think ) but then i read stuff like: "Manhattan  is a Native American word that has been variously translated as meaning "good place to collect bow wood", "place of general inebriation", and "people of the whirlpool", among others." and in the image it looks like a whirlpool..... i'm trying to stay open to anything, even the niagara falls area ck, especially around toronto with the cn tower.

Any of these places could be it if there was a sign nearby that speaks of Indies native.

The National Museum of the American Indian, George Gustav Heye Center, is located at One Bowling Green adjacent to the northeast corner of Battery Park, New York, New York hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN

Nice!  I've been there cormac.  But I was looking at verse5 at the time.  This is why the Battery is high on the list.  Anyone like the church in Jersey City?  There is also a Hamilton Park close by in the downtown Historic Paulus Hook District of Jersey City.  Another Slappy find.... I think.

boogieman, i'm not sure if it was me or not, but i have  been looking again in jersey city, but ....it's with the italian casque which would be image 11 because...the italian folletti  on the shores of new jersey....... i'll probably come back to everyone's way of thinking eventually, but right now i'm going to kind of follow up this way.... that's why i deleted that last post about battery park.......i like battery park but because of a different verse, the one that went "in the middle of 21".....because battery park is 21 acres, and that same verse has "where jewels abound, and there is the whole jewelry district there in new york.....plus that building with the shape i liked, like the shape in  image 9 is close to battery park (13-15 south william street) yep, i'm going way out there again, mixing them all up in my head but remember that solved one that seemed like it had to be washington, dc.....wasn't so i'm thinking the obscure quotes are or could be screwing with us. so i'm trying image 9 going with new york, because of the dutch and the canarsie tribe in the book, but to me....the dutch and new york seem to go together don't hate me, i know you think i go way out in left field sometimes, but i'm not gonna give up, and if this doesn't work, i'll go back to the other way of thinking,ok?

Good Hunting!

The New York City neighborhood of Hamilton Heights is directly south of the George Washington bridge and is in the shadow of this "Great Grey Bridge."  The community derives its name from Alexander Hamilton, who lived the last two years of his life in the area: Specifically, he lived in what is now known as Hamilton Grange National Monument.  The Grange has been physically moved recently from Convent Avenue to Saint Nicholas Park www.nps.gov/hagr/ In addition, Riverside Park and Riverbank State Park both run along the Hudson River the length of Hamilton Heights.  These parks have "slender paths"  running through them for jogging and walking along the river bank. Hamilton Heights is in the shadow of a "Grey Giant," and there are historic signs or markers in the neighborhood which specifically refer to Alexander Hamilton.  In September 1776 Hamilton participated in the battle of Harlem Heights.  This battle occurred in an area just outside the current border of the Hamilton Heights neighborhood ( to the south.) Here is one additional thought I had about the "Isle of B":  Some New York City subway kisoks are located in the middle of wider streets, like Broadway. The kisoks are often situated on their own isles of concrete which are in fact islands in the middle of busy streets.  The New York City subway B line runs under Hamilton Heights.  Some of the B line kisoks are located on the aforementioned islands in the Hamilton Heights district.  Thus, you could very easily look north at one of these Kiosks and call it the "Isle of B" for the B train that runs under it.  Maybe I have too much time on my hands........

That's good thinking, Kato - worth a trip to that area, Boogie? Interesting coincidence - yesterday I was flying over Manhattan toward Laguardia (one stop on a 3-leg trip) and got the best view of New York Harbor and Manhattan I've ever had. What a beautiful city! I couldn't spot the casque from that high but I did notice the George Washington Bridge, and thought to myself that the openings in its supports look an awful lot like the ones in the Narrows bridge (which I also saw from the air), which in turn look like the outline of P12. I didn't know there was a Hamilton connection, too. Worth investigating up close!

Very interesting stuff indeed Kato.  I was surprised to find "in the shadow of the “Great Gray Bridge.”" while doing a little research on the Ft Washington Park.  Web page is here: hxxp://www.fortwashingtonpark.com/ Look at the pic on that website while reading these lines of the V: "From the middle of one branch Of the v" hmmmmmm

In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (There is a "George Washington Bridge Heliport") Cars abound (George Washington Bridge is said to be one of the busiest bridges in New York, with over 300,000 cars per day crossing it.) Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native (There is an Alexander Hamilton Bridge just East of the George Washington Bridge) But where is the isle of B? AP

Fox: That terrific picture you posted of Fort Washington Park is taken from the southern walkway of the Geroge Washington Bridge.  The picture also includes Riverside Park which is stretching away to the south.  You can see how close the Hamilton Heights neighborhood is to the bridge,  with Riverside Park begining just past those tennis courts.  Washington Heights and Hamilton Heights are contiguous neighborhoods, but only Hamilton Heights is in the shadow the Great Grey Bridge. And , as Animal Painter pointed out, there are other connections to Alexander Hamilton in upper Manhattan:  The Alexander Hamilton bridge is just across the narrow neck of Manhattan from the George Washington Bridge,  and connects Manhattan with the Bronx, spanning the Harlem River. So I believe that this area is worth investigating and examining in our quest for the casque.

Kato wrote:: So I believe that this area is worth investigating and examining in our quest for the casque. animal painter wrote:: In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound (There is a "George Washington Bridge Heliport") animal painter wrote:: But where is the isle of B? AP I would have to agree with you Kato....although, I am really beginning to hate NYC since there are sooooooooooooooooooo many parks that fit the bill ...or even the constant whirring of pedals all along the bike paths. There has to be some sort of 'island' with a 'B' name around there...even the kiosk idea holds water

I have to stress this one more time since we may be looking at the GWBridge.  No ordinary hair looks like this.

How possible is it for you to go poke around or at least explore & take pics of the area Boogie?  Maybe we too can experience a Christmas miracle and unearth another one of these casques.

I plan on getting over to this area as soon as possible, and will take any and all applicable photos.

Unknown: I would have to agree with you Kato....although, I am really beginning to hate NYC since there are sooooooooooooooooooo many parks that fit the bill Fox:  You got me thinking (again) and it seems that I didn't go far enough with the subway kiosk idea.  There are also many vest pocket or urban parks in New York City that are  situated in the middle of busy streets.  These small parks are located on isles or islands in the middle of urban thoroughfares, like Broadway.  Broadway is the spine of the Upper West side of Manhattan, and it is here that the Broadway Malls Park is located.  This park is in the middle of Broadway, on its own isles or islands, and stretches from 156th Street to 168th Street.  This puts it dead center in the Hamilton Heights neighborhood.  My research indicates that there is lots of public art located inside this 1.14 acre urban oasis, and that the park is used as public gallery space. Perhaps some of the renderings in Image 12 could possibly be found here. As with some of the subway kiosks, you could look north at this park (or a section of it) and call it the "Isle of B."  Since Broadway runs north and south the entire length of Manhattan, looking north at the Broadway Malls Park in Hamilton Heights is a simple exercise.

Kato wrote:: Since Broadway runs north and south the entire length of Manhattan, looking north at the Broadway Malls Park in Hamilton Heights is a simple exercise. But would you be looking north at this possible isle of B if you were in the park under the GW Bridge?  I say we explore this area to death...and...upon once again finding nothing, we ALL meet in the Big Apple and systematically tear apart every park we can find until the casque is unearthed.  In no time at all, all of Manhattan will look like:

If we meet the Beers are on me.

Things got a little out of hand last time you said that Kato....

I LOVE grolsch! wilhouse

The Grolsh with the corked bottles!  Yum. Back to the hunt.  I would go out and take some pics but first... I love that people like this verse for NYC, but how do you get NY without the image?  The slender path is what got me going.  If its not that, then the verse could just as well be niagara falls.  I like the Broadway Isle thing.  Just the most southern part.  No way is image12 the GWB.  The arch to the VNB is the same shape as the image.  The GWB is a little different, not "as" arched.  You guys gotta convince me before I go out there.  Hour and a half away.

Unknown: You guys gotta convince me before I go out there.  Hour and a half away Boogie: Working on it.  The reason I initially thought the VNB could be the "gray giant" was because when the Secret was published in 1983 the VNB was the longest suspension bridge in the world.  Certainly a giant then as well as now.  In addition, Fort Hamilton is in the shadow of the VNB, and that is a solid Alexander Hamilton connection to the area surrounding the VNB. The GW bridge area deserves a fair shake though, since there are also many Hamilton connections in its shadow as well.  In addition, the Hildegard H. Swift children's book, The Little Red Lighthouse and the Great Gray Bridge seems to also connect Verse 10 with the GW bridge. So I am still opened minded about both sites, but I am concentrating more on the GWB and its environs  at this time.  Nothing wrong with investigating both sites though, and keeping the ideas flowing.  The more brainstorming the better in my opinion.

kato, I agree totally with that last statement.  I have looked at the GWB many times and will keep looking all over NYC. (and NJ)  I dont care where it is found.  But before i go treking up to the GWB, I'll need to see more connections.  I've been looking since this was brought up.  Again, great views from local.live.com .

just a few ideas to toss around. fort hamilton park is located right by leif ericson drive. also gowanus expressway is nearby, possibly a sign near there pointing to it, and that is a word referring to native americans. all i got so far. gonna look at this verse more closely, with the hopes it actually is nyc. being so close and all.

Welcome bemo12! The VNB, if coming in from Statin Island turns into the Gowanus.  Also named the Brooklyn-Queens expressway- or I 278.  If you can find some hard word in three vols. about Gowanus, that would make me happy for sure.  Have you found a connection between either v10 or image12 to Leif Ericson? BTW, been reading all the posts and u guys are cracking me up!

I haven't been able to find anything to tie in Leif Ericson. But John Paul Jones park is right near the Verrazano (grey giant, V), and the Gowanus (Indies Native) Parkway is also near there. John Paul Jones Park is named after a Navy hero, but interestingly enough John Paul Jones is also the stage name of one of Led Zeppelin's composer's and musicians. (Rhapsodic Man's Soil). From what I remember about John Paul Jones' park, it is a small park with a pathway by the water. (slender path) As i read on here, the whirring sound could be fishing reels or bikes on the pathway. Cars abound being the major motor ways in the area. "Him of Hard word in 3 Vols." is still confusing me though. Something about Vols. makes me think it isn't neccesarily meaning volumes. Why abbreviate it? I dunno. I'm gonna research this some more.

Okay after doing some thinking and a lot of research I may have (using that loosely) figured out what the Hard word in 3 volumes is. John Paul Jones is a war hero, as well as, a member of Led Zeppelin. A Led Zeppelin literally is a rigid war craft, making it a "Hard word". Led Zeppelin's albums were Led Zeppelin I, II, III. Three volumes. There is a fourth album which people call Led Zeppelin IV, but it was officially untitled. Could this be the "Hard word in three vols."? If this is true, could that be the last piece? Is anyone up for digging in Brooklyn? I'm in NJ and it would be a short trip, but if someone would like to go that would be great too.

boogieman has always loved jpj park! i like the zeppelin part........maybe there's some album part in all of them?  the pink floyd one, now this! i like it. boogieman? i haven't been looking at these because of the weather, but if you all don't mind, i'll start looking at the russian fair folks for this ok?  i don't think it helped much, except maybe to keep interest alive.  would you rather i posted what i find in the fair folks thread? i did find this pic of verrazano at battery park and i don't think i had ever seen the lady with it b4. hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... nstat.html

I was enjoying my winter slumber you dirty dogs! Just when you think you're out, they drag you back in. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin_IV I never thought about that fourth album.  Always thought LZ had 4 vols.  Nice find bemo12.  You got me going again. I have always looked at a song from another album Houses of the Holy called The Crunge.  At the very end of that song Robert Plant asks "Where is that confounded bridge?".  Could he mean the Verrazano?  I would always come back to the Statue of Liberty as the woman in the song. Now, how about from the middle of one branch of the v ?  v = five?  or fifth? The Crunge hxxp://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/ ... 870002F423

Pesky v. I don't think it would be the Verrazano because I think that that is our grey giant, so why repeat it twice? Is there precedent in any of the earlier finds that a letter by itself could be the first letter of a word?

Unknown: Is there precedent in any of the earlier finds that a letter by itself could be the first letter of a word? Yes - it's done 4 times in V12.

Unknown: Him of Hard word in 3 Vols." is still confusing me though. Something about Vols. makes me think it isn't neccesarily meaning volumes. Why abbreviate it? Why indeed? It is the only time a period is used other than at the end of each verse. Which leads me to wonder if it is indeed an abbreviation at all. I discovered once (and still sort of think it's relevant) that "vols" is a French word for "flights". A "flight" can be a trip, (i.e. journey), a set of stairs, or even a "rush" of something--like ideas.

Vols. is a tricky one for sure.  Would BP have used a foriegn language in a verse? Oh, and the Verrazano is blue not grey.  Always has been.  The WTC was grey and is in image12.  How do you figure the bridge to be the grey giant, even if it was grey?  What would get you to it without the slender path (Narrows Inlet)?

Alright let me try and get what we have down so far for this theory. In the shadow Of the grey giant -- --Manhattan? WTC? Both possible. Find the arm that Extends over the slender path -- -- Could this be the verrazano? forgive me but I get a little confused. the narrows is the strip of water the verrazano crosses? if this is so I think it fits very well. Plus i really like "slender path" to mean narrows or something like that. In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound -- - this could be boats, fishing reels, bicycles Cars abound -- - there are plenty of cars near by, especially with the bridge and the road ways Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native - -- Alexander Hamilton. Fort Hamilton. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 vols.--- I really like John Paul Jones (Led Zeppelin) for this one. I think it is strange to have vols. abbreviates but I just don't think that BP would put foreign words in this. I think it is strange but it really fits snug. Take twice as many east steps as the hour ---matching this with picture 12 that gives us 22. or more From the middle of one branch of the v ---------------------------------------??? Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil ---- Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. Questions to ponder. Why the "or more"? Is this just because it might not be the exact number or is it something more than that? "Simple roots"? What exactly does this mean? I think if we are to take this verse as JPJ Park, the most important element is going to be "the middle of one branch of the v". Are there any good theories about this? I'll do some more research and hopefully get up there to take a look around, but I think everyone here has such great ideas. I think if we all put our heads together we might be able to dig this one up before Summer.

bemo12 wrote:: I think if we are to take this verse as JPJ Park, the most important element is going to be "the middle of one branch of the v". Are there any good theories about this? I'll do some more research and hopefully get up there to take a look around, but I think everyone here has such great ideas. I think if we all put our heads together we might be able to dig this one up before Summer. It is quite refreshing to see another soul aboard the JPJ Ferry along with Boogie and myself.  Welcome aboard Bemo!  Most of your ideas listed above are what was brought up by Boogie some time ago.  I know...there is soooooo much to read. Boogie & I did just that.  My family & I were in the Big Apple for a concert and I luckily got to meet Boogie in person and spend a brief amount of time {my flight was leaving later that day} exploring JPJ Park.  We even 'thought' we located our V...& I suppose it still may be correct.  We did a little digging but came up empty handed except for what appeared to be part of an old Letterman's jacket.  I still like this as our park.  It is nice and small...it is out of the way...and it has many linkings/confirmers with our Verse.  I'm with you Bemo...I think we are really close with this one and perhaps your new set of eyes is just what is needed.

Sorry that I haven't gotten to reading all the material. I'm sure most of it is really good, but I wanted to go head first into this verse with very little back story. But I think it is a good sign that three or more of us have come to the same comclusions (on most things). I'm very new to this, and I probably sound naive, but I have a really good feeling about this location. The only thing I am worried about is being able to pinpoint the exact location of this needle in what will probably seem like a neverending haystack. I am going to go to JPJ this weekend and just look around to get my bearings, because I think I have done all the research I can do without actually looking for our v. Did you two encounter any resistance to digging? I don't think I am going to be doing any of that this weekend, but just incase the mood takes me over, will I be okay as long as I replace everything and keep it confined to one or two locations?

bemo12 wrote:: Sorry that I haven't gotten to reading all the material. I'm sure most of it is really good, but I wanted to go head first into this verse with very little back story. But I think it is a good sign that three or more of us have come to the same comclusions (on most things). bemo12 wrote:: I'm very new to this, and I probably sound naive, but I have a really good feeling about this location. bemo12 wrote:: The only thing I am worried about is being able to pinpoint the exact location of this needle in what will probably seem like a neverending haystack. bemo12 wrote:: I am going to go to JPJ this weekend and just look around to get my bearings, because I think I have done all the research I can do without actually looking for our v. bemo12 wrote:: Did you two encounter any resistance to digging? I don't think I am going to be doing any of that this weekend, but just incase the mood takes me over, will I be okay as long as I replace everything and keep it confined to one or two locations? Don't be sorry...it is alllllloooooottttt to read!  Diving head first into seems to have worked nicely for you though, seeing as..like you state..you have come up with almost exactly the same ideas as Boogie. It doesn't take newbieness or naivety to feel good about this location.  Many old timers, myself included {who is probably the oldest timer around these boards}, also feel good about this park. Welcome to our world my friend Maybe not reading back posts is a good thing right now.  Refrain from reading anything regarding the 'V' and see what you come up with during your exploration of the park.  Maybe you will come up with what I noticed while perusing the area with Boogie. That is a funny story in and of itself.  Boogie posted what happened some time back in these threads.  Read it when you get back.  Until then, I don't think park people mind if you are just digging in a small area as long as you fill the hole when you are done.  My suggestion, don't do any digging until you are almost positive you have the right spot... (or) as in our case, are fairly secluded from snooping neighbors and....wait...I'll let you read the other part when you get back. Good luck on your quest!  Maybe Boogie can meet up with you there and this time around he will be on a Successful dig since this has become his baby.

I wish I could go bemo.  My daughters birthday is today and Sunday I will be marching in the St Patrick's Day Parade in Belmar NJ.   but Fox is right.  Have a look around and maybe your eye's will see something relevant.  I would only clutter your thoughts. Hard word, hard rock lyrics, Led Zeppelin...none of it seems to relate to an indies native.  Unless we can find something connecting Zeppelin to Hamilton.  Wait.... I got it. Although the sign nearby speaks of indies native Fort Hamilton the natives still speak of Him of Hard word in 3 vols. The natives here are New Yorkers who have named a park (still speak) after an english native named JPJ the Navy hero. But the name is also connected to a hard rock lyricist from England who was the main force in Led Zeppelin's I, II and III albums. This is why BP has the word Although in there.  Although there is an indies native across the street, the local natives still speak of an English native JPJ by naming a park after him.  A composer and lyricist of hard rock albums in 3 vols. I like it.

Boogie, you and I are on the same page. I liked the natives still speak of him, because when this book was written Led Zeppelin was pretty big so NY'ers would definitely be talking. And Fort Hamilton is the sign of the Indies Native. I like this too, unfortunately I was going to go in on Sunday, but the weather is looking bad. Oh well, soon.

Where in Jersey do you live bemo?  I live in Monroe Twp.  I work in Jersey City mostly.

Bound Brook. It's by New Brunswick. Somerset County

As being the one to mention JJP as being both the Father of the Navy and the rapsonic man - let me wiegh in.... The first part of the verse gets you to New York and the Bridge and the Narrows, but you do not know anything else until you see the plaque indicating that you are standing in John Paul Jones Park and have the dual connection. I believe that 'simple roots' indicates 'one generation' or father. 'Take twice as many east steps as the hour' 'From the middle of one branch' 'Of the v' I think that 'one branch' is talking about the Navy. And you count your eastern steps from the 'v' in navy on the plaque. Why does it say 'or more', I do not know.  Could it be a visual reference or an anagram (?) I think it is there somewhere.

I like the simple roots thing.  I know you brought that up some time ago trohn. The branch may mean a military branch ergo the Navy. But why take steps from the v in navy?  the plaque is probably smaller in width then a single step.  to take 22 steps from a letter barely an inch  wide doesn't jive with me.  I read the verse so that you take 22 steps from the middle of one branch of the v.  to me, that v must be large. The biggest nag is the lack of an onsite visual confirmer from image12.  We have the arch of the bridge.  That's pretty much it.  The verse has been packaged nicely.  But we've known that for a year or so.  Getting dizzy. Again.

Maybe 'v' stands for 'visual confirmer.'

"middle of one branch of the v" Good thoughts, but I don't see how the navy is a branch of the v? I know the navy is a branch of the military, but the middle of one branch of the v just doesn't jive with navy to me. I'm with boogie on this one.

I know this is probably the wrong place to post this, but in the armpit of the lady in picture 12, the area looks very similar to an obelisk, like the one found in the park? Maybe or I am imagining things.

I've posted many times that, if you stand back from the computer just a little, with the full image12 on the screen, you will see clear shadows at her armpits.  From her right armpit is a #5 or an S.  Her left armpit is either a #1 or the letter I.  51 or S.I. for Staten Island.  I bet it is S.I.      No "visual" v on her at all FB.

Boogie, I have found that if you stand far enough back, turn your monitor 43 degrees left, jump up and down, hum the theme to Starsky and Hutch as loud as you can, and imbibe spirits... you can see Churchill Downs in her dress.

in the verse the "v" isn't capitalized, it's a little "v" on the plaque is it capitalized?

forest_blight wrote:: Boogie, I have found that if you stand far enough back, turn your monitor 43 degrees left, jump up and down, hum the theme to Starsky and Hutch as loud as you can, and imbibe spirits... you can see Churchill Downs in her dress. Repeat after me..... Mint Julips.

slappybuns wrote:: in the verse the "v" isn't capitalized, it's a little "v" on the plaque is it capitalized? On the plaque... 'Navy'

thank you trohn the only 2 fair folks that pertain directly to russia are the devil dogs and the tax burden.  the tax burden could mean anything to do with hamilton. the devil dog had me stumped, there is a snack called devil dogs  and they are made by the drake company in wayne, nj, ( along with ring dings, that are pictured w/ the devil dogs, p. 84)15 miles from manhattan, but...... the marines are also called "devil dogs" and marine can mean anything pertaining to the sea.......and jpj was the father of the navy so ....lol, that's all i've got, oh, i do like this too: Many New York City Subway stations are decorated with colorful ceramic plaques and tile mosaics. Of these, many take the form of signs, identifying the station's location. and to go to fort hamilton, they are yellowish beige like in the pic: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ft_Ha ... nkbone.JPG

Unknown: in the verse the "v" isn't capitalized, it's a little "v" So...then it's a Wee Vee? Weevy? hxxp://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/surnames.php?surname=WEEVY Maybe one branch of this family...? Okay....it's a stretch.

forest_blight wrote:: Boogie, I have found that if you stand far enough back, turn your monitor 43 degrees left, jump up and down, hum the theme to Starsky and Hutch as loud as you can, and imbibe spirits... you can see Churchill Downs in her dress. Well, I saw Winston Churchill naked and dropped a bottle of Irish whiskey on my toe.  Thanks alot!

i haven't had a chance to find this picture: "Tom Baril photographed the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge that connects Brooklyn and Staten Island from underneath so that it manifests itself as a powerful ''V'' shape." also, the only thing i could find about summer, is that the roadway is 12 feet lower in the summer........that's kind of spooky to me. "due to thermal expansion/contraction of steel, the bridge roadway is 12' lower in summer than its winter elevation." umm, i have the norse guys with my russian guys,  and there is the geodesic gnome......the pagoda and the mugwumps......which sit on both sides of the fence... i was thinking maybe from the pagoda, walking toward the fence in the picture (4th picture down) (would that be around 22 steps?): hxxp://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigm ... /index.htm and the corporate giants, the giant flagstaff, said something about loves acting through committee, and the flagstaff marker has "memorial committee" on it......or the giant could just be for "jack".....you know always with giants in fairy tales, and jack is a nickname for "john"......lol  (all of this without imbibing......yet) also, thinking of "simple" ..........easy as pie, PICNIC[b] (the pagoda) [/b, walk in the park i like trohn's "father" of the navy for roots, but guess it could be family "tree"..... that "gaze north""  i believe he's talking about the gazebo, why not just say "look"

slappybuns wrote:: i haven't had a chance to find this picture: "Tom Baril photographed the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge that connects Brooklyn and Staten Island from underneath so that it manifests itself as a powerful ''V'' shape." Anything with the v and the Verrazano interests me.  I'll see if I can help you find it.  As far as the rest of your post slappy.... The verses are tough enough, never mind the rest of the book.  I can't even wrap my head around it.  Where do you get your strength? Anyway, since bemo12 kicked this off again, I'm ready to go back to JPJ Park.  Also, I have a buddy who just joined the forum and I am waiting for him to make his grand entrance (1st post).  He loves this park too.  So, bemo, we can have three pairs of eyes out there when the snow is gone. I first want to start with the flagpole as the v.  I'd like to dig on the other side of the base that Fox and I dug at, which was the east side.  Because you take eastern steps, to get to the base of the flagpole and the v, you would have to be on the western side of it or you would have to walk through it.  I know there wasn't a Fort Hamilton sign west of the pole, but maybe there is a JPJ Park sign 22 westerly steps from it.  I can't remember where it was but the sign was there.  Fox, do you remember?  so I was thinking that this could be the starting point for the 22steps.  Look down, gaze north and dig. BTW slappy, the gazebo has only been there for a few years.  Not 27 yrs ago.

Just let me know when you want to dig and I will meet you there. I have some ideas about where to dig, but I want to see them in person before conjecturing on here about them.

Here's the memorial plaque to JPJ the navy guy.  The base of the flagpole is just behind it.

boogieman i was wondering, since i think there's only 4 things in the park, could you match them with the "stones, or whatever" in the image, to the park? hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B035/monuments/page/1 like, it would be the 2nd one from left, or 3rd from the right? which is the flagpole?

i found the picture boogieman: hxxp://www.wesleyan.edu/dac/exhb/past/2001b.html sorry, it's not exactly what i'd hoped

slappybuns wrote:: i haven't had a chance to find this picture: "Tom Baril photographed the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge that connects Brooklyn and Staten Island from underneath so that it manifests itself as a powerful ''V'' shape." Here it is: I think the "v" is more likely to be a reference to the name of the bridge than to its shape.

slappybuns wrote:: boogieman i was wondering, since i think there's only 4 things in the park, could you match them with the "stones, or whatever" in the image, to the park? hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B035/monuments/page/1 like, it would be the 2nd one from left, or 3rd from the right? which is the flagpole? Not sure what you mean by "match up" but here is the flagpole where Fox and I dug.  The obelisk is to the right about 10 to 15 yards.

Ahh, such fond memories.  Thanks for the pic Boogie.  Both Fate and Destiny showed up to our little gathering in the park in the form of a truckload of gardening tools....unfortunately, I think we forgot to send out Luck's invitation.  Sorry, I do not recall where the JPJ sign was.  Are you referring to the small sign with the leaf shape on it?  I kind of think there was one of those along the fence towards the water and the end of the V bridge nearest the park.{in your pic, it would be out of frame towards the left}..not sure though. Good luck guys...dig this one up for me.  If you do happen to find it on the other side of the flagpole, save a jar of dirt for me, ok?

thanks for the pictures boogieman! i'm getting so excited for you guys! i find it interesting that the led zeppelin III album has "'The Immigrant Song".... boogieman, in our picture in the book, what do you think the stones and the "topaz" stand for?  do you think the "topaz" just means brooklyn? i was trying to figure out which monument matched up to those stones in the image.  in this map: hxxp://gis.nyc.gov/parks/lc/NYCParkMapIt.do it doesn't tell which is which.. i found it interesting that the dover patrol one was in that raid on April "22"........because that "take twice as many east steps as the hour" hxxp://flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1994476660/ from the park  site it says the dover monument is at ft. hamilton park and the flagstaff is at john paul jones park........is that how it is really? wonder if the "v" could be for 5th avenue? fox mentioned a sign on a fence...i like that idea too, but the plaque seems perfect since you have to look down. did u dig on the north side of the plaque? outside the fence?

I can't find anything connecting the topaz to the verse or brooklyn.  Can't connect November to it either.  I thought that the other objects next to the topaz in image12 were eye balls or something.  Stones are ineresting.  The way they are laid out in the image haven't hit me either. Other than the Liberty face, the bridge, and WTC, the rest of the image irks me.  Digging in JPJ park is really a shot in the dark.  The verse fits nicely but like we all know, you can squeeze anything anywhere.  I'm hoping that there once was a JPJ Park sign 22 western steps away from the flagpole at one time.  That would take us to one branch of the v shaped flag cables. It really is a perfect place to hide a casque. Looking down and seeing simple roots in JPJ's soil where the plaque is.  If we could tie up the loose ends this would be sweet. The park was dedicated to JPJ in 69'.  Maybe there were still signs all over the place in 81'.  So long ago... edit: a lot of the internet info confuses Fort Hamilton with JPJ park.  The entire area is considered but not named "The Fort Hamilton Area".  The Dover Monument is just feet away from the JPJ flagpole in JPJ park.

well, she's floating in the air, like a flag would do , but she's probably just being the statue of liberty in the harbor. i just hope it's not something you have to figure out like this: Lecture 13: Simple Roots. Recall: De¯nition: A ¯finite subset R ½ V satisfying the following is called a root system in V . ugh, simple roots and a V (i don't know how to post those subset symbols) i would fix some sort of 007 gadget in a cane, where u press a button and a long, steel rod comes out the bottom of the cane........i've seen  a knife come out of a cane in some movie.......i would do that and stroll around with it, but it would be nice if it had a lot of pressure, like an air gun or something, hmmm maybe someone could invent this for our hunters, lol and call it "buns of steel" .........after me ( slappy "buns)

Unknown: from the park  site it says the dover monument is at ft. hamilton park and the flagstaff is at john paul jones park........is that how it is really? wonder if the "v" could be for 5th avenue? Maybe not Fifth Avenue, but I really like the idea of the V being "five." And that five could be a Roman Numeral on any edifice--or clock.

there's a bus stop 5 here, the B5: hxxp://www.qsl.net/bklynqrp/jpj-park.htm here's another coincidence about the Immigrant Song: "The song is dedicated to the Icelander Leif Ericson," and leif ericson dr is right there with the bridge, and when you do the "map it" at the park site, it says ericson dr.  EN-SB one thing that bothers me is the Russian theme, unless u put the Norse with it........john paul jones was in the russian navy, and then leif ericson was nordic.. and then those "eyeballs"...........lol from the pictures of the norse guys, i would look where the bridges overlap, the cables to the bridges, and maybe the utilites (bathroom?)

if those tiles in the image are showing subway stops, then maybe, it is near the B5 stop or subway stop and look, i'm believing in his "obscure" synonyms from album to volume: hxxp://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/album maybe "in the shadow" means right under the bridge look at the mugwumps on p. 147, look at that "v" on the cable, and the podium looks like the bottom of the tower thingies and there is a place where marine (devil dogs)  ave. meets it, and then on p. 146 with the gavel , the l loops[b] [/b], is that area still part of the park boogie, or is it far away from where u've been looking? on google earth it says it is still john paul jones park. look at the blue tile: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/army_arch/3147915902/ on the tax burden, too, there is a  "v" and some loops, p. 215, kindof looks like the revolutionary war memorial (rock) hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1993680335/ "escaping thru a " loophole guess that podium on the mugwumps could be the base of the obelisk or the triangle

If the casque is not in JPJ Park, then it is not in Brooklyn.  The subway stop is 6 blocks away. If the bridge is the grey giant then the Narrows Inlet has nothing to do with the verse, which is how we got to the bridge in the first place. Please, please don't make me look in the book! Ok.  Ok.  I have to find it first.  It would be negligent not to investigate anything that has to do with a  v.  Have to find my book. What is l loops ?

boogie, you don't have to get out your book, lol. i'm just hoping that something in there will help with the spot. in all the images of the fair folks, (that i think pertain to this one), have loops somewhere in the picture. the mugwumps have a picture of this gavel, with a loop in the middle of the gavel and this guy being held up with cables, and the tax burden guy is tied with loops, and then it mentioned on one of them "a loophole". just seemed there might be something to it.  i was thinking maybe where leif ericson drive looped over (or under) the verrazano. but mostly, i'm just hoping something i say helps you in your hunt

Thanks slappy.  Can't find that darn book.  Hope it didn't make it's way to the attic.

the household unfamiliars remind me of the subway stops: "green spots, ketchup spots, gravy spots, brown spots, yellow spots, indelible spots"..............spots----stops and.......they have a [b]B[/b  for "isle of B." like B16, B41........ you'd be looking north to the bus stop at marine ave?

I have an observation that I do not know what to do with concerning the verse....keep in mind, it was written in 1981. Taking the first letters of the middle lines... you get the curious 'acronym' C A N S T O T O or  'Cans Toto' Now we all know that in 1981, a huge rock band was Toto. So, the question I have is.... Who fired the band Toto?

hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=xdCL5V ... #PPA145,M1 bay ridge had more norwegians than anywhere in the world besides norway top of p. 145 trying to find out what the eyeballs are, i was thinking lights, because when you take a pic sometimes the reflection kind of looks like that, but, then i looked at "stanchion" for flagstaff, and it said "beam"  an upright post. they do seem to "beam" and twinkle (the eyeballs in the image) hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... N%26um%3D1 which can circle around to stars on a flag, lol

Trohn wrote:: I have an observation that I do not know what to do with concerning the verse....keep in mind, it was written in 1981. Taking the first letters of the middle lines... you get the curious 'acronym' C A N S T O T O or  'Cans Toto' Now we all know that in 1981, a huge rock band was Toto. So, the question I have is.... Who fired the band Toto? The band or the Italian Actor?  If you're talking about the actor, I supposed you might say he was ultimately made redundant by the Big Man himself--he died in 1967.  As for the band, well, they probably should have been fired after the soundtrack of Dune, but that didn't happen until after the book was published--the movie was not released until 1984.

I was lucky enough to be in Battery Park NYC one day in 1984 when they were filming Desperately Seeking Susan .  TOTO's song Rosanna was about Rosanna Arquette who starred in that movie with Madonna.  Great song.  Showing my age.

boogieman wrote:: I was lucky enough to be in Battery Park NYC one day in 1984 when they were filming Desperately Seeking Susan .  TOTO's song Rosanna was about Rosanna Arquette who starred in that movie with Madonna.  Great song.  Showing my age. Desperately seeking Susan was a good film. But talk about age --when you said "Madonna" I thought of Jesus' mom.

I am still planning to on dig at JPJ Park thursday..... I am throwing this out there so the Battery Park favoritists can ponder. In the shadow of the grey giant find the arm that extends over the slender path Still going with the 2 WTC tower.  The slender path could be the Narrows Inlet and the Verrazano.  You can see the battery from the top of the WTC with the Verrazano off in the distance.  Or it can be the arm of the Hudson Bay called the Hudson River that travels over the PATH rail tunnels that run from Jersey City to ground zero which can be called slender paths.  Very tight, a person and a train cannot occupy the same space in those tunnels at the same time.  Walked them a thousand times. In summer, you'll often hear a whirring sound You have the heliport and the Liberty Island Ferry down at the Battery.  As I recall, the heliport was open all year round back in 82', but the trips to the Statue were not.  In the summer, the ferries ran more frequent than in the spring or fall.  So, very often in summer, not so often otherwise. Cars abound Take your pick.  There is a subway station for the MTA subway cars, the entrance to the Brooklyn/Battery tunnel for autos right there, plus heavy traffic running along the Battery and around Wall St.. Althought the sign nearby speaks of indies native Almost all of the older buildings around the Battery have to do with Alexander Hamilton.  There's the Custom House and various Bank of New York buildings around, which, coincidentally is a bank that old Alexander founded. The natives still speak of him of hard word in three vols. If we are talking about Battery Park, I think we have to go back to the Federalists Papers written by Hamilton for the Hard Word. Maybe we can find something on them at the Customs House. Take twice as many east steps as the hour, or more, from the middle of one branch of the v Look down and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil or gaze north towards the isle of B Where is that confounded v that contains rhapsodic guy's dirt and is south of some stupid isle that starts with a B?  I dont think we can take the same concepts of these lines from the JPJ Park equation.

bowling green could be the "isle of B." bowling.......aisle good luck thursday, boogieman!!

You may be right slappy.  The starting point though has to be the v I think.  Just like it is at JPJ Park.  Without it, we are just standing south of what may be our isle.

Good luck on your dig tomorrow (Thursday) Boogie!  I sure hope you find it.  You deserve a find with all of your work on JPJ.  Don't forget to bring a long an empty jar just in case. ...and, if I were you, I would come prepared with digging utensils instead of hoping another truck will pull up Best of luck my friend....

Well, Thursday has come and is almost gone with nary a word from boogie.  I am thinking there was no find since there is no post.  I know that if I found the casque, I would probably at least hit the boards with a big "We Found It...more to come later" thread.  Oh well....

another day gone and still no word?

fox, can you call him and make sure everything's ok?

Sorry for the delay folks.  Had some issues and couldn't go to JPJ Park.  I will go this Tuesday, I promise. i didn't mean to keep you guys hanging.  I know what that's like.

What time on Tuesday? I might be able to meet you there.

Yeah, maybe I can meet you too....oh wait, no I can't, I'm still in NM Good luck guys!

I'm going to head out around 10am.  That should get me there at..... you guessed it!! 11:00 AM.

and...?

And we are going to dig at the west side of the base of the flag post with the JPJ plaque just a foot north of it.....

boogieman wrote:: On the other side of this flagpost.  In this image I took 22west steps.  I'm going to take east steps tomorrow starting from the west side of the monument.  (assuming that the v point is 22steps west from the flag)

Cormac wrote:: and...? boogie was referring to the time on the clock in P12 and the twice as many steps = 22. come on guys, dig it up!

I'm running a little late but heading out the door now at 11:10 am.  Should be there by 12:15.  I will bring the lap top and hope I can pick up a signal from the park.  Bemo, are you going?

Nothing again!  Couldn't get to deep in the hole.  Those green bushes have gotten so big the roots were impossible to get through.  More later.....

Here's what have so far linking Prospect Park and V10 Particularly; sign of Indies native, him of Hard word in 3 Vols, and the isle of B In the shadow Of the grey giant Meaning outside the main "down town New York Area" Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Manhattan bridge heading to Brooklyn which becomes Flatbush Ave heading straight to Prospect Park In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Could be the nearby fountains, could also be the many birds in the area. Excerpt from Dope on the Slope:  "I was out photographing the various blooms and blossoms popping up in Prospect Park this afternoon when I heard a bizarre whirring sound in a stand of trees .....very similar to that of quail wings. I looked up and saw a flash of black and red in the brush - a redwing blackbird! Cars abound Roads going through and around Prospect Park Here is a link to a good map of the park: hxxp://home.earthlink.net/~parkadvocate ... irdMap.jpg Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The Montauk Club:  Ste A, 25 8th Ave, Brooklyn, NY‎ - (718) 638-0800‎ (just off the northern edge of Prospect Park to to me could = "Nearby") The Montauk Club is a slice of Victoriana that would be pretentious if it weren’t so enjoyable and fun to view when walking past. The club itself was established in 1889 as a “gentleman’s social club”; a plaque at the front entrance describes its (completed in) 891 building at 8th Avenue and Lincoln Place as modeled by architect Francis Kimball after the Ca’ d’Oro in Venice. There is a lengthy frieze above the third floor depicting the “exploits of the Montauk Indians”, as the plaque puts it , in terra cotta. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Isaac Asimov Isaac Asimov was born in Petrovichi in Smolensk Oblast, RSFSR (now Russia)  His family emigrated to the United States when he was three years old. Growing up in Brooklyn, New York, Asimov taught himself to read at the age of five, and remained fluent in Yiddish as well as English. His parents owned a succession of candy stores,  (the last was at 174 Windsor Place, between Fuller Place and 10th Avenue... very close to the park )    and everyone in the family was expected to work in them. Most of his popularized science books explain scientific concepts in a historical way, going as far back as possible to a time when the science in question was at its simplest stage. He often provides nationalities, birth dates, and death dates for the scientists he mentions, as well as etymologies and pronunciation guides for technical terms. Examples include his Guide to Science, the three volume set Understanding Physics , Asimov's Chronology of Science and Discovery, as well as numerous works on astronomy, mathematics, the Bible, William Shakespeare's works and, of course, chemistry subjects. Understanding Physics is a non-fiction book written by Isaac Asimov, originally published in 1966. It is considered to be a reader-friendly informational guide regarding the fields of physics and chemistry, written for lay people. It is one of several science guides by Asimov. The book is divided into three volumes, each of which have also been published separately as books. They are: •  Motion, Sound, and Heat •  Light, Magnetism, and Electricity •  The Electron, Proton, and Neutron A good hike south of the park is a school named after him          PS 099 Isaac Asimov  1120 East  10 Street  Brooklyn, NY 11230 Not sure of relevant dates regarding the school or it's name. Here are the various addresses around Brooklyn he lived or worked in his father's candy stores... -  When the Asimov family came to the United States in 1923, they moved into their first apartment at 425 Van Siclen Avenue, in the East New York section of Brooklyn. -  In the summer of 1925 they moved one block away to an apartment at 434 Miller Avenue. -  They moved half a mile eastward in December 1928 to another apartment at 651 Essex Street, above the second candy store bought by his father. -  In early 1933, they moved to an apartment on Church Avenue, -  and after a brief stay there they moved to an apartment above yet another family candy store, at 1312 Decatur Street, in the Ridgewood section of Brooklyn. -  In December of 1936, Asimov's father sold his third candy store and bought his fourth, at 174 Windsor Place, (between Fuller Place and 10th Avenue), and the family moved to a house across the street. -  After completing military service and his work as a chemist with the government during WW 2, he returned to the states in May, and after his discharge from the army in July, he and his wife Gertrude moved into a small apartment in Brooklyn on 213 Dean Street in September 1946. -  In September of 1947 they moved to the downstairs apartment of his parents' house on Windsor Place. He later lived in Manhattan, Philadelphia, and Boston. Isaac Asimov could also be our connection to the  "Russian" Orthodox Church in the picture. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v The "V" can be seen from the Grand Army Plaza looking south into the park. Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil ? Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. The Bailey Fountain is in Grand Army Plaza, which is at the north end of Prospect Park From the wikipedia page for Grand Army Plaza: The Bailey Fountain was built in 1932 by architect Edgerton Swarthout and sculptor Eugene Savage. Named after Brooklyn-based financier and philanthropist Frank Bailey (1865-1953), he funded it as a memorial to his wife Mary Louise. It features an elaborate grouping of allegorical and mythical figures that includes the god of water Neptune and a pair of female nudes representing Wisdom and Felicity.

Here is the next part... I now think it is a mistake in assuming “rhapsodic” in this verse has anything to do with music or a composer. “rhapsodic” is an adjective describing the “man”. In it’s literal form I’m now thinking of it as a:  man with great enthusiasm, or who felt great delight based on the definitions Here are our definitions showing the differences between rhapsodic and rhapsody: rhapsodic - Adjective - feeling great rapture or delight - extravagantly enthusiastic; ecstatic - pertaining to, characteristic of, or of the nature or form of rhapsody rhapsody - Noun - Music: an instrumental composition irregular in form and suggestive of improvisation. - an ecstatic expression of feeling or enthusiasm. - an epic poem, or a part of such a poem, as a book of the Iliad, suitable for recitation at one time. - a similar piece of modern literature. - an unusually intense or irregular poem or piece of prose. - Archaic: a miscellaneous collection; jumble. To help with the solve I give you: James S.T. Stranahan Here is an excerpt from an historical account relating to Grand Army Plaza, the entrance to Prospect park : As the need for open spaces in Brooklyn increased, the New York State Legislature authorized the City of Brooklyn, in 1859, to select sites for public parks. In 1860 a Parks Commission was created which selected the site for Prospect Park. The Commission was led by James S.T. Stranahan (1808–1898), known as “the Father of Prospect Park.” Stranahan served as the board’s president for 22 years, and is honored in Grand Army Plaza with a portrait sculpture by Frederick MacMonnies (1863–1937) dedicated in 1891. After serving for 22 years and seeing his efforts brought to fruition,  I am sure the definition would fit this proud park papa. and paraphrased from his speech at a dinner held in his honor, regarding the park: I am heartily glad that the opportunity was afforded to me and that the service has been cheerfully rendered. … That it commands your approval is to me a source of great gratification. If I could get up there I would poke/dig the following area…: As I mentioned in the prevous post, looking from Grand Army Plaza toward the entrance of the park you can see the “V”  (a grassy area). To the left (eastern side) just past the “Eagle Columns” you should see the statue of James S.T. Stranahan .  The park grounds behind him would be the  “rhapsodic man’s soil”. Half way on the Left (Eastern) side of the grassy V head due east 22 steps, crossing the road into this area… to the spot. Oh yeah....and when we gaze north toward the isle of b  (the bailey fountain) what do we also see... a beautiful arch.

I was reading James Joyce's collection of short stories, Dubliners , today and encountered the phrase "hard word" in the story Two Gallants . I didn't understand what it meant in context: "Whenever any job was vacant a friend was always ready to give him the hard word." I found a website that explains it: hard word : unpleasant information (that employment might be available for Corley, who doesn’t like to work). I don't know that this really helps, but it's not every day I encounter that phrase. Could it mean "unpleasant information" in The Secret ? "The natives still speak / Of him of... unpleasant information"?

I always took that line to mean that the natives spoke of him (whoever he is) in a negative manner...in other words, whatever "he" did..the natives did not think too highly of him....

The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. In trying to break down the literal meaning of the lines, here is my take. The locals still speak of this person. Now the question is... do the locals speak in 3 vols, or is the Hard word divided into 3 vols. The later is more likely which makes "Hard word" become an object rather than a description of "him" which makes the word "of" imply that "him" owns or is known for the 3 vol. of Hard word The reason locals would speak of this person is likely because he or she was also local, or did something locally and gained enough recognition (positive or negative) to not be forgotten. So with Slappy's mention of Prospect park, the logical local famous person who published something with 3 volumes, which happened to be 3 books on Hard (or difficult to understand) words and concepts, is Isaac Asimov.  (noted in my recent postings)

I find this all very interesting guys.  The one issue I have would be the indies native.  Who is that?  Asimov?

Not unless Russia and New York are part of the Indies. Asimov has nothing to do with "Indies native."

shecrab wrote:: Asimov has nothing to do with "Indies native." I couldn't even be a smart@$$ on this one.  Was trying desperately to find mention that Isaac's favorite bevarage was a cup of Indies Darjeeling tea.  Oh well... I do find the connection (or lack thereof) of Asimov & Indies natives very suspect.

With Kibitz' ideas for verse7 I think we would want to think of the indies native as a street sign.  Alexander Hamilton Parkway for instance.  We haven't locked in any street clues for this one yet.  I will look into this more.  (soon) After my 3 month layoff from the hunt I feel refreshed.

I am not all-fired happy with the solution to this v. I think there have been better interpretations in the past, and even my strange Niagara Falls interp fit better, IMHO. HOWEVER---that said, I will not discount anything yet. I'm not very familiar with the research on this one, except as it pertained to Niagara Falls, which, BTW, is still in New York.

the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native I still think the sign relating to indies native is the plaque at the Montauk club that references the exploits of the Montauk Indians. I think this would be a sign that "speaks of"  where a road sign wouldn't tell you anything but a name.

That makes perfect sense but how does that relate to Asimov?  Or am I confusing locations now?  Who does the plaque speak of in hard words?

I don't think the "indies native" sign needs to point or relate to Asimov. Separately, the two clues indicate that the Slappy's choice of Prospect park are quite reasonable. If you think of them as separate clues and separate meanings for the word native in each clue 1.  the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native    -    There is a sign nearby relating to Native Americans to let you know that you are close. 2. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols  -  The natives meaning the Current Locals, speak of someone, likely famous, who lived there or did something notable in the local vicinity in the past.  Asimov lived within a block of the park.

Believe it or not Cormac...that makes perfect sense now that you broke it down. To make your point even a little clearer, you shouldn't have left some off.  Look: "Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." The "although" could be just what you need.  Emphasize it & Indies and you get Although the sign nearby speaks of Indies natives...... The (some other type other than Indies) natives still... It sure makes sense but are we supposed to differentiate between the natives? Argggghhhhh!

With slappy's Prospect Park idea, and my two large previous posts with pictures and supporting evidence, I think we have a reasonable dig spot... or at least a poking spot. Is anyone available in that area? Willing to poke around there and let us know?

Boogieman....that would be you.  Are you available anytime in the fairly near future?

I may be heading to Brooklyn soon.  Nothing related to the hunt but will try to squeeze this in.  That part of the city is a nightmare to get around though.  Keep the thoughts flowing.  I still need convincing. hxxp://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T ... 40.6680699

remember when we were talking about the albums of led zeppelin and pink floyd? (reading about cw's blimp on verse 5 thread made me think of the zeppelin, lol ) look at the synonyms for volumes: aggregate, amount, body, bulk, compass , content, contents, cubic measure, dimensions, extent, figure, mass, number, object, quantity, size, total amplification, degree, intensity, power, sonority, strength album , edition, publication, tome, treatise, version

Has anyone poked around yet?

Boy the board has been dead... in an effort to stir something up... How about this. Verse 10 - Charleston SC. in the shadow Of the grey giant The grey giant being the Citadel Military school So in the shadow of the grey giant would be the park next to it, Hampton Park. Find the arm that Extends over the slender path No idea, a statue on campus maybe? In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cicadas!!! Cars abound Mary Murray drive encircles Hampton park Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native the South Carolina Inter-State and West Indian Exposition was held on this site in 1902 and there are still signs, buildings and structures standing. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Teddy Roosevelt attended the west indian exposition in 1903 and there are monuments there about this. his bio was supposed to run to three volumes but is unfinished. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more 8 steps the clock in the image2 shows 4:00 From the middle of one branch Of the v Where two paths connect? Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil ? Gershwin wrote porgy & bess which was set in Charleston... Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. In the center of the park is a lake that has an island, this island was the original location of the bandstand at the exposition. hence its name , bandstand island. So without being on site I cant get more accurate. It would be great if someone could go check this out to see if it pans out... but my location would resolve to somewhere in the southwest corner of Hampton Park next to the citadel near mary Mary Murray Blvd.

This is a great theory, Malt, were there not such strong support linking V6 to Charleston. One suggestion: I see no reason to associate "grey giant" with the Citadel. Why can't it be a tree, and the "arm" could be a branch that extends over one of the park paths? There are plenty of large live oaks in that park.

that's one of the fascinating (or frustrating) part of these poems....that they could be made to fit anywhere...it'd take some convincing to make me think this verse was for charleston in the shadow of the grey giant------------------statue of liberty,  and the spelling "grey" because she was a gift from the french find the arm that extends over the slender path-----------------verrazano-narrows bridge hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=jr9odn ... q=&f=false a book about immigrants and i'm stuck with boogieman on "john paul jones" ......it seems like the play on words BP would do with "the natives still speak of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. "............... john paul jones, led zeppelin III, hard rock, and that album has the "immigrant song" happy new year guys! good luck hunters!

slappybuns wrote:: that's one of the fascinating (or frustrating) part of these poems....that they could be made to fit anywhere... How true Slappy.  Malted, i like what you did with V10.  i remember having V5 assured to Battery Pak NYC way back when.  Talk about hitting a rock.  But I'm sticking with V10 and NY.  Check out the video below.  This one broke my heart.  But that is image12 and v10.  BTW, I have had the misfortune of my hard drive crashing, without a back up, and lost all of my Secret notes and pics.  Can anyone send me the high res images 1 thru 12? hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Do645Qv ... re=related

boogie try this hxxp://tweleve.org/upload/secret.rename_to_zip_please

Thanks CW.  I missed my images and verses.  I own two books.  One is still in NC and the other......who knows.  Maybe we donated it accidentally.  Your link was excellent.

thanks cw!! i've got them on my desktop now! lol i still haven't retrieved my notes for when my computer crashed either if someone could scan page 221 and 222 i would really really appreciate it! mine is torn and the pieces are missing and i would like to start over with my fairy folks' notes.  please!

boogieman wrote:: hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Do645Qv ... re=related Thanks for the video Boogie... If you watch timeframe  3:54 to 4:15  it supports that from Prospect Park you would likely to have only seen one tower.

trying to be open minded Cormac...If you can, explain to me again how the verse10 or Image12 leads you to prospect park.  I mean, I cant get past the Narrows, twin Tower, arm and slender path leading anywhere outside of the harbor.  PP is not in the shadow of the grey giant.  If we can agree on slender path and the verrazano, how do we then head to PP according to the verse?  We can make it fit anywhere, like we have seen, but is doesnt lead me there.

forest_blight wrote:: This is a great theory, Malt, were there not such strong support linking V6 to Charleston. One suggestion: I see no reason to associate "grey giant" with the Citadel. Why can't it be a tree, and the "arm" could be a branch that extends over one of the park paths? There are plenty of large live oaks in that park. Actually I was watching a football game and the announcer was describing the schools and the he called the Citadel "The Grey Giant"  not being from there I have no idea if  that is a common nickname or not. but I looked it up and there was a park next to it. with a lake with an island in the lake that could be considered the isle of B. somebody local would know better- but my main point is boy the boards are dead, - might be better to talk about wild ideas, think outside the box etc etc.,, then just re-hash the same stuff over and over.

Thank you Boogie (and everyone else) for the open-mindedness in this forum. I’m sure many of my thoughts require this BP puts several clues that it is near NY, but like the Chicago hunt I don't think he stays in the immediate area of the obvious (tourist) clues. Another idea influencing my thinking is the one where we have a starting point... head a little distance... then head or turn left into the dig area... If from the "V" we are to take "east steps", this would be a left turn if we arrived at the "V" from the north. First we need our start point. Rather than thinking of Prospect Park being “in the shadow of the grey giant” I think that the 4 lines as one sentence makes a lot more sense, and aside from Image12 basically telling us to go to NY, these are our first actual instructions "In the shadow Of the grey giant, Find the arm that Extends over the slender path" paraphrasing: Within the general area of the “grey giant”, you will find your start point at the “arm that extends over the slender path.” Within the Image12 a prominent feature is the water at the base of the picture. To me,  the wave on the left is too similar to the Chinese Lion to be a coincidence. (In previous posts it was referred to as possibly a Chinese foo dog) This is at the entrance of the Buddhist temple at 113 Canal Street ...basically the beginning of the Manhattan Bridge. In Image12 the water wave ridge spans the picture like a bridge with the Chinese Lion facing forward possibly indicating we should cross the water. The whole image almost implies we should look out over the water. Now lets look at the path. This “path” could be the East River.    I know… Bear with me here… The East river is a narrow tidal strait connecting Upper New York Bay with Long Island Sound and separating the boroughs of Manhattan and the Bronx from Brooklyn and Queens. and the definition of a strait… noun:   A narrow channel joining two larger bodies of water. So … our “slender path” could easily be a narrow channel... (a simple play on words without taking things too literally) our “arm that Extends over” that “slender path” could be the Manhattan Bridge especially if that Chinese Lion at the Buddhist Temple is our starting point. Following this “arm” takes us from one island to the other and leads us to Prospect Park.

I can see at narrow body of water being a slender path - no problem. and an arm over that path would be a bridge so where do you dig?

I posted the rest on this thread, down to the dig spot, on Page 45, Replies  #665 on: July 18, 2009 and #666 on: July 21, 2009 I really wish I could get up there to at least poke the spot.

I can be your tour guide when you get here.  But I will have to convince myself that PP is the place because Brooklyn is quite the zoo and my time is sparse.  But I am looking into it.  First, I need some deprogramming.  LOL

Thinking about the line: "natives still speak of him of Hard word in 3 Vols" Isaac Bashevis Singer  was a 1975 Nobel prize-winning Jewish writer. He lived in New York City for several decades and wrote about Jewish life. He wrote in Yiddish...which could be considered Hard words. (There was a well known 3-volume English-Yiddish dictionary published in 1965. or it could refer to volumes of Singer's own works.) Singer is buried in Cedar Park Cemetery, 735 Forest Ave, Paramus, NJ 07630...not really close...but in the area. This information may not lead directly to a casque, but it could explain the reference in the verse.

cormac I went back and reread page 45 #665, a lot of it makes sense. one question I would like to ask though is about the Isle of B. how does Isle of B translate to Bailey fountain? I get the B and Bailey, but Isle and fountain? its the opposite of one Isle = land surrounded by water, fountain = water surounded by land. I dont see the connection logically in a way that makes me go - oh yeah!

Cormac wrote:: [ The Bailey Fountain I'm thinking the sculpture part of the fountain rising from the water could be our "Isle"

maltedfalcon wrote:: well sure is one thing, but until we actually use a verse to find a casque for instance, in the northwest corner of Golden Gate Park there stands a large grey windmill its arms extend over many slender paths I believe in the summer they actually used to let the windmill spin which might make a whirring noise. lots of cars there at the intersection of Fulton and Great Highway lots of possibilities for natives of Indies I just never could find an Isle of B if someone can think of an Isle of B this one could also then fit SF I will admit that this is a stretch! As far as the Isle of B goes......I think it could depend on how North is to be used or interpreted.  North on a map? or North as far as which way your body is positioned? It says to travel East as many steps as the hour or more.  If North is to be used as far as which way your body is facing, then "your" north would be east on a map. Then I would argue that SF would be an excellent choice!

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. I am inclined to agree with previous  "searchers" that the sign of the Indies native refers to the sign of either the Alexander Hamilton expressway or Hamilton Fort, both in the vicinity of the New York City area near the "Narrows"...bridge. The repetition of the word "native' in the next line, may be trying to confuse us. I have recently been trying to determine who these "natives" are and who "him-of-Hard-word" is. Native New Yorkers (not necessarily Native American Indians)  would be proud to acknowledge that Norman Rock well was a native New Yorker...born in NYC.  ( Rock ...meaning... Hard ... ) B. Preiss was also a native New Yorker...born in NYC...and he would have known of Norman Rockwell's connection. It just so happens that a 3-volume set of books entitled... Norman Rockwell & the Saturday Evening Post was published in the 1970s...the final volumes published in 1979...at about the time B. Preiss was putting together his "Secret" manuscript.  Being in the publishing business, Mr. Preiss would have been aware of this. I put it to you that the "natives' refer to people born in NYC  and him-of-Hard-word is Norman Rock well.

Museum of American Illustration New York Cit Address: 128 E. 63d St. New York NY 10021-7303 ... If you Google on the address of this museum, which memorializes Norman Rockwell, you will see that it is in the close proximity to the Narrows bridge and Central Park (another park created by Frederick Law Olmsted.  (as are several other parks related to this hunt).

AP, when i google earth that address...it's on manhattan near the same "Central Park"  that BP said there wasn't one hidden. (still could be one outside of the park) i did get the feeling of Norman Rockwell when reading some parts of the fair folks......(i' m thinking it was with the french image) i still like : "find the arm that extends over the slender path", to be Long Island and Verrazano Narrows bridge you've got "arm" (inlet of water, or the bridge) and "extends" (to make longer, (long))......long island and the first two lines should be telling you which roads to take, i think, i hope............i am just wondering if we have the wrong image for new york...........

Slappy, I believe that BP did prefer out-of-the-way places. There are a couple of small parks in this area...Owl's Head Park is situated on the shoreline side with a view of the Statue of Liberty and other islands.  I will have to research this park and others to see if there are any visual confirmations. Norman Rockwell's birthplace was Amsterdam Ave. & 103rd Street, New York City. It is also on Manhattan.  But he does seem to fit the clues for "him of Hard word". AP

There is another possibility for "him of hard word". Ralph Waldo Emerson. In his essay "On Self-Reliance" (from Essays, First Series) he states: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again , though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood. Now this presents another problem. If Emerson is the "man of Hard Word", this verse ought, by rights, to belong not to New York, but to Boston, since Emerson was a well-known denizen of Harvard. So can you find another connection for Emerson in New York? And can you figure out which of the rest of his essays the third volume is? It could be what is widely considered to be the third most important group of his writings, "Nature". With Essays, First series, Essays, Second Series and Nature, scholars everywhere consider Emerson's philosophy fairly well summed-up. There is one connection I know of: Emerson Hill, a neighborhood in the New York City borough of Staten Island, is named for his eldest brother, Judge William Emerson, who resided there from 1837 to 1864. (from Wikipedia).

Shecrab, Do "natives" speak of Emerson in 3 volumes? AP

Well, sort of, yes: In Ira K. Morris's book "Memorial History of Staten Island Vol. 2" there is this passage: Judge William Emerson.—Judge Emerson was a brother to Ralph Waldo Emerson, the most celebrated of American philosophers. and was born in Boston about the commencement of the Nineteenth century, and graduated from Harvard College when quite a young man. From about 1837 to 1856 he resided on Staten Island, in a low, brown house, located on the Richmond road on the sloping lawn now belonging to the Unger place. The spot may be more properly described as being nearly in front of the late Edward A. Moore residence. William Emerson was County Judge of Richmond ill 1841-3. The Emerson residence was known as " The Snuggery," and was burned down several years ago. The end of the house faced the road, while a long grape-arbor stretched to the gate, and the old fashioned box-bushes bordered the garden paths. Kalph Waldo Emerson spent a great deal of his time at " The Snuggery,'' and there is no doubt that he wrote many of his poems and prepared his lectures on "Representative Men," which he delivered in England just after his stay, on Staten Island. He was of clerical lineage, being the eighth in succession of a consecutive line of Puritan ministers. Old residents of the Island remember the Emersons as very genial and friendly. They mingled with the people in a manner that made their final departure a sincere regret to all. There is nothing left of " The Snuggery•' to tel! the present generation that it once existed, and few indeed who pass the spot daily know that it was once the home of such distinguished Americans.

And another thing: Staten Island is connected to Brooklyn by the V:  The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. I think this was mentioned as what was being considered the "V" in the verse, wasn't it? The "Isle of B" could very well mean "Brooklyn". The reason I say this is because if you simply SAY the words, it sounds like the "AISLE OF B"--the passageway to B. The Bridge--(the V) to B (Brooklyn). So maybe there is a connection after all.

brain hurt, so many circles. i like that essay from emerson, best i've heard for "him of hard word"  (besides john paul jones ) and emerson wrote "nature", and i think his essays were 3 volumes,  (just a quick search) and you have the greenbelt "nature"  center on staten island, emerson hill and longfellow avenue, and all those parks and...... a golf course! (my pet theory, that he went golfing while hiding the casques ) i like this area, but have to find "indies native", hamilton fits that so well.......but...if you put "Hard word".......together and say it, it could be "harvard"  ,  hehe, which could be pointing to emerson.... either side of the bridge i like, not much time for research til after the new year (Happy New Year everyone!)

Shecrab, Interesting...but I still like the word-play use of Hard meaning Rock . The verse says "word"...Hard word (not words )...with the capitalization of H ard to point to a name. The three volumes I referred to were about Norman Rockwell exclusively and published in the contemporary time frame of BP's writing of this book. I have been looking at the West side of the Narrows bridge where we also see "Hamilton Park" at the North end of Staten Island...If you stand there, you can look North at B ayonne, NJ which may be considered the "isle of B". Since we are looking  down on the "rhapsodic man's soil, we surely are standing New York soil...maybe Staten Island. Happy New Year to all... AP

forest_blight wrote:: Boogie, we may be onto something here. From Hamilton's "Works" (in, as you said, three volumes), both dating to 1797: "But I confess, I have not been well satisfied with the answer reported in the House. It contains too many hard expressions; and hard words are very rarely useful in public proceedings. Mr. Jay and other friends here have been struck in the same manner with myself. We shall not regret to see the answer softened down. Real firmness is good for every thing. Strut is good for nothing." The italics are in the original. Here's the other passage: "I received your letter of the ———. Though I do not like in some respects the answer of the House to the speech, yet I frankly own that I had no objection to see it softened down. For I think there is no use in hard words —and in public proceedings would almost always unite the suaviter in modo with the fortiter in re ." Again, italics in the original. Why would Hamilton italicize hard words ? Does he mean it as a euphemism for stern language? This from our own FB on page 9 of this thread.

animal painter wrote:: Shecrab, Interesting...but I still like the word-play use of Hard meaning Rock . Unknown: The verse says "word"...Hard word (not words )...with the capitalization of H ard to point to a name. The three volumes I referred to were about Norman Rockwell exclusively and published in the contemporary time frame of BP's writing of this book. Well, that might be a good way to go, if there just weren't so many possibilities for the definition of "hard". "Rock" is only one--why not "stone" or "calloused" or even "solid"? There must be a gazillion names beginning with the word "stone", for instance. I can't think of any reason to single out "rock". Hard also can mean "true" or "real." Again, too many possibilities, even if Rockwell DID have 3 volumes of something. Yes, again---it does say WORD (singular) but three volumes is not A WORD--it is thousands of WORDS. And I would not associate Norman Rockwell with words anyway--more the opposite, I'd say. He could certainly paint a thousand words--not word. I'm just not loving this one. Sorry.

Shecrab, I was looking at "him of Hard word" not in reference to the "3 volumes" but as the name of the man.   Had BP written..."him of Hard words"... it would more likely be referring to a man who wrote or spoke something hard-to-take, or discussed difficult-to-understand subject matter.... BP did love wordplay...such as using "compass" to mean Northpoint and using "cast in copper" to refer to Lincoln {in verse number 8}. The fact that Rockwell uses this possible wordplay Hard=Rock , and the 3 volumes of Norman Rockwell's Saturday Evening Post artwork were published in the 1970s... and Rockwell was a world-renown figure born in NYC, are enough evidence for me... AP

We could play this game for hours. How about Neil Diamond (born in Brooklyn)?

FB, Nice hearing from you... I looked into Neil...but could not find 3 volumes related to him. He does have 2 volumes of his greatest hits.... AP

forest_blight wrote:: We could play this game for hours. How about Neil Diamond (born in Brooklyn)? Or by the same token: Jacques CARTIER...(Cartier is a renowned diamond merchant--pretty "hard" word there) who made 3 "vols" to the New World. Vols is the French word for "flights", i.e., trips. Of course, that would probably put this verse in Canada, near Quebec--not NYC. The "Isle of B" could be the straits of Belle Isle, where Cartier sailed on his 2nd voyage up the St. Lawrence river. The "natives" (Indians) are still talking about those voyages, since they figure prominently in their history. I posted this theory before.

LOL.  We have been playing this game for years and years. Happy New Year!

Boogie, What do you think of this idea? quoting from verse 10... Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more If you consider each city block as a "step", and "twice as many as the hour"  could mean 60 minutes in an hour x 2 = 120 "or more" can mean a few more than 120.... On the North shore of Queens, just below the Bronx, are two parks...College Point Shore Front Park at about 115th St, and Powell's Cove Park at 130th St. (That is a few more than 120) They are near Laguardia Airport. If you are standing at either of these parks gazing North, you will be looking at the "isle of B" (the Bronx). Looking at Powell's Cove Park, you see a very obvious "V" formed by the sidewalk around its perimeter. From the middle of one branch Of the v Take the branch of the "V" which is closest to the North shore. and walk halfway  as shown by the "X" on the photo. Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Who knows what simple roots were there 31 years ago? The trees could have been saplings...or there could be simple grass. It could be sedge grass growing on the rocky beach. Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. Look North to see the island which is also home to the Bronx.

Unknown: f you are standing at either of these parks gazing North, you will be looking at the "isle of B" (the Bronx). You're willing to allow the Bronx to be an "isle" but you're not willing to allow hard words for Hard word?  See, this is where you lose me on this theory.

apples and oranges

From Answers.com is the Bronx an island? No. The Bronx is the only New York City borough that is not an island, or part of an island. The borough of Manhattan and the borough of Staten Island are both islands, and the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens are located on the western end of Long Island. The Bronx is the only New York City borough that is attached to the mainland of New York State.

Thanks Malted. The Bronx as a whole is definitely not an island. Googling , I came up with "City Island", which is considered part of the Bronx. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Island,_Bronx It could be an oblique reference... Due South of City Island, are Little Bay Park and Fort Totten Park. Fort Totten is the shape of a "v" right on the shoreline... hxxp://www.forttotten.org/

animal painter wrote:: Thanks Malted. The Bronx as a whole is definitely not an island. Googling , I came up with "City Island", which is considered part of the Bronx. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Island,_Bronx It could be an oblique reference... Due South of City Island, are Little Bay Park and Fort Totten Park. Fort Totten is the shape of a "v" right on the shoreline... hxxp://www.forttotten.org/ hi ap is there anything connecting alexander hamilton to those parks AH is the only indies native, ive found connected to ney york Alexander Hamilton was born in Charlestown, the capital of the island of Nevis in the British West Indies. He was born out of wedlock to Rachel Faucett Lavien, of partial French Huguenot descent, and James A. Hamilton, hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton i looked didnt see anything about AH there

cw0909, We still have to drive over the Verrazano-Narrows bridge, where we see the signs for Fort Hamilton and the Ft. Hamilton Parkway. What other "isle of B" is under consideration at this time? AP

Being originally from Brooklyn, and reading almost everything on it, I am shocked to learn that Brooklyn is a county that lies within Long Island NY.  It is considered a borough of NYC, but at the same time, it is a county of Long Island.  Geez.... Isle of B.  Isle of Brooklyn hence, gaze north at Long Island? hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island Check out the overview from Wikipedia and the map on the top right hand side of the page above.  If this is true, we are digging in either the shores Staten Island, or New Jersey.

I just learned that the island on which the Statue of Liberty stands, was once named Bedloe's Island...hmmm...any New York City native must have known this....(isle of B) The Shore Rd. Park has a North-gazing view of Liberty (Bedloe's) Island, and also has a view of the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge.  It has a "v" shape in its walkways...It is relatively out-of-the-way. It is also close to Fort Hamilton. If you go to the Google street-view, it offers several photos of things that can be seen from the park. Here is a Flickr album of photos taken from Shore Rd. Park. Apparently you can see the Statue of Liberty from there. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/emilio_guerra/3695491472/ Looks like it could be a place of great interest...

I kept trying to find a sculpture to account for the female figure with arms held out in image 12... The arms of the sculpture of Alice in Wonderland in Central Park have a good deal of similarity...Also, the face in the front of the robe, has a certain resemblance  to the  Mad Hatter's face. I know that Central Park is not the treasure location... It may just be a NYC visual confirmer. If you look at the figure's robe folds, around the area of the right shoulder/arm. (on the left of the image)...it looks like a tree trunk.

A church in Battery park NY.  I've showed this before, but worth showing again. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/garrets/3314785737/

Boogie, The more I look at the verse and the area, the more I think BP is referring to Ft Hamilton Park or the park along that shore. It is "in the shadow of the grey giant" (The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge). It is "rhapsodic man's soil" (Brooklyn, birthplace of George Gershwin) It has a North-gaze view of the "isle of B" (Bedloe's Island) We would have to find the "arm over the slender path" in the park. It could be a tree branch, a light post or a sign over the sidewalk... The "simple roots" might still be there...grass of some sort. AP

animal painter wrote:: I just learned that the island on which the Statue of Liberty stands, was once named Bedloe's Island Good find. I like that...

I don't think it's possible to see Bedloe's Island from Fort Hamilton. But if we are focusing on Fort Hamilton again, remember that what led us there to begin with was that the NARROWS bridge could be the SLENDER path. More BP wordplay.

FB, I do not think Fort Hamilton itself is the location, but the park area along the shore near the bridge. It is possible to see Bedloe's Island from the Shore Rd Park... which appears to be an extension of Ft Hamilton Park along the shore. Where one park stops and the other begins, I do not know. The verse says only that the sign nearby speaks of the Indies native. We have the signs for Fort Hamilton and Ft. Hamilton Park. The more I look at the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, the more it seems to fit the description of the "grey giant"...So we would be looking in its shadow...or land that could fall within/near its shadow. I will be looking for photos of the park areas along the shoreline to see if there is a significant visible "arm"of some sort. AP

There's a Narrows Road that stretches left of the bridge.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: There's a Narrows Road that stretches left of the bridge. I like that!

The verse says: Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v The clock in the image-12 is set at 11:00. I suppose that means we will be taking approximately 22 steps toward the East from the middle of the v. The "v" is probably the sidewalk which forks. We will walk 22 steps East ,to the treasure location from the half-way mark of one side of the walkway. It might make sense that the walkway would run North-South if we had to take East steps to get to the dig site...assuming the dig site is off the walkway far enough to be out of public view. The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge (grey giant) casts it shadow from the Northeast to the Northwest. So we should maybe look at the park areas starting closest to the bridge foundations and work our way North. Fort Wadsworth and Arthur Von Briesen Park on the West end and Fort Hamilton Park and Shore Rd Park on the East end. Either side could be considered due South of Bedloe's Island.

Here's an overview of the area, with the bridge and the island. Here's Narrows Road. I looked at Wagner College (top left) because their athletics team is the Sea Hawks . This logo is on their sports pitch. In the pic, the topaz is below the hawk. On the map, what's below the hawk is...The Staten Island Horrible Haunted Monastery. (Note Emerson Drive just over the road, probably named after Ralph's brother.) This is an abandoned Augustine monastery - legend has it that one of the monks went off his head and murdered them all. (Complete nonsense of course. But it looks like a cool place to search for buried treasure...) hxxp://www.lostdestinations.com/mnastry1.htm

There is a Narrows Ave. on the east side of the Narrows, too. It terminates at Owls Head Park, another likely place to look. Got a free weekend coming up, boogie?? I think we have enough ideas for you to explore now.

Just found this photo of Shore Rd Park...facing the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. Those are real "steps" that form the walkway. They start halfway along the branch of the v. Are there 22 or more of them, leading to "simple roots"? A tree branch (arm?) over the narrow sidewalk...? The robe-folds on the shoulder of the female figure resemble a tree. I will keep looking for more visual confirmers.

Here's a history of Owls Head Park: hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/OwlsHe ... lights/151 Created from land donated by Eliphalet Bliss. Another rhapsodic gentleman. Was apparently associated with the Canarsie Indians. BP did seem to like his indigenous tribespeople. So...Narrows Ave connects Shore Rd Park and Owl's Head Park... (PS Did you notice the bridge was dumped on top of Fort Lafayette? There's no getting away from that bloke. And you noticed Gershwin's parents were Russian?)

Nice work people!  Gershwin being russian is a new one for me.  But I cant forget about Wadsworth yet.  I have already planned out a trip to Staten Island.  Go to your favorite  map and look under the Verrazano  Bridge on that side of the Narrows.  I have never walked around down there so I need to stand in the middle of both sides of the v bridge to see the view from there.  The lack of visual confirmers for image12 are eating me alive.  I believe we can see the statue from there.  And back in the day, you could see the twin towers from anywhere. From there i will take the nice long walk from John Paul jones Park up to Owl's Head.  I need a month or two for it to warm up first.  But I think the bridge is do-able now.  There seems to be a large white stone on the Staten Island side.  I'll go soon.  Dang, did i just say "soon"?

(Thanks for your patience boogieman, I see this area was closely investigated years ago. Will keep looking for some new angles on it...)

one idea i had for isle of B....was the bailey fountain in grand army plaza in front of prospect park B---aile----y seems like a play on words that BP would use and also grand army plaza: "It consists of concentric rings arranged as streets, with the outer ring being named Plaza Street. The inner ring was originally intended to be a circle," makes me think of the circles in the water in the image (also saw the bailey seton hospital on staten island, the seton part came after the hunt i think ) had forgotten about gershwin being russian wanted to mention the Brooklyn eagle newspaper,  at 28 old fulton street hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Warehouse i like around prospect park becausse of lefferts homestead, and i remember somewhere in the book reading about lefferts curve woody guthrie still comes to mind also for his song "this land is your land"  and he lived somewhere in brooklyn too going to have to go back and look at cormac's theories thought this was funny, looking up dongan oak (simple roots)  and found thomas dongan and found he was the 2nd earl of limerick.......would a limerick be considered "rhapsodic"............ hxxp://www.andrewcusack.com/2006/01/16/thomas-dongan/

i like this idea of mine too (lol, i'm so humble) you know how you use " v "   (little v)  for legal documents, meaning versus ( i think) what if you read it "from one branch of the verses (instead of versus)( or "verse is"), and so somewhere in this verse- top part, bottom part, middle down, will spell out where...........like a crossword what do you think?

capital letters with the words in the verse: IndiesHardVolsB BHind............behind?.......but i can find a lot of words like.....solve......silver.........dover (obelisk)

to Ward B in jersey city: hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&expId ... CBwQnwIwAQ which to look north at we'd be in liberty state park, new jersey?

As you walk along Shore Rd, you pass by Fort Hamilton High School. This could be the "sign nearby that speaks of Indies Native".

Fort Hamilton High School has a clock tower with Roman Numerals on the face....

I like this horsehead railing at Owl's Head. Wonder how old it is. An arch from above... It reminded me of that strange story about horse-stealing in the introduction. "Finally, I got a good idea. I stole the horse" Steal horse / steel horse...? At the bottom of the same page there's a reference to the Canarsie tribe. "...their old friends the Canarsie tribe traded Manhattan Island for a handful of trinkets..." (P29) "Canarsie Indians who were part of the Mohegan Nation and spoke Algonquin, once lived in and around the present day Owl’s Head Park." hxxp://www.buzzle.com/articles/bay-ridge-brooklyn.html (Waves are called "white horses".) Speaking of arches, the first and last images are the only two with that arched "grandfather clock" shape in a white border. All the rest are full-colour pages. There's a similarity between the two women.

ap more on the 22 steps or more, rabbit i like the seahawk good catch i tried to make um click able thumbnails, sorry couldnt do it this was hmmm ,just south of ball field

cw0909, Very nice shot of the "steps".  It appears that each "step" may require two human-steps to cover it.  That would make the distance just over 22 human-steps...and would put you in a nice copse of trees...perfect place to look down and see simple-roots (maybe the tree roots on top of the ground.) At Shore Rd and 79th Street (by the checkerboard) there is a long light pole "arm" over the slender path (the crosswalk or bicycle lane...aka..bike "path"). AP

Another possible location on Shore Rd... There is a pedestrian bridge over Lief Ericson Hyw. (about 3 blocks from Ft. Hamilton High School) It could be considered the "arm" over the slender path. At the end of the bridge, you have to go down "steps" to get back to ground level. If you take the Eastward steps, when you look down, you see either grass or shrub or a few trees. If you look North, you have an unobstructed view of Liberty (Bedloe's) Island. I can envision BP digging a small hole just there in the dark of night...unseen.

View of the Eastward steps.

One more view of the pedestrian bridge...

Overhead view of the pedestrian bridge area. Boogie, Maybe you can take a look at this isolated area. Unless it is under snow at present.... AP

link to that map shot i posted, choose birds eye,have a look around hxxp://tinyurl.com/3ypt34u some shots of jpj john-paul-jones-park hxxp://parkodyssey.blogspot.com/2010/09 ... -park.html hxxp://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigm ... /index.htm hxxp://millefiorifavoriti.blogspot.com/ ... yn-ny.html

ap that flag by the checker board, is called a yard arm, and it dosent look to far from the v steps

cw0909, That Bing overview works very nicely. Yes, that does make sense for us to see the "yard arm" from Shore Rd....telling us to head over in that direction to the walkway on the shoreline park area. So we have two possible locations. The "v" mentioned in the verse,tends to make us move further along to about  74th street and Shore rd.... The pedestrian bridge is open to the shoreline to easily see Liberty (Bedloe's) Island...but may not have a "v" feature. AP

what if the V is the v bridge, where it makes a v, and there is a small area east,of one branch of the v whoops i see a house, wonder if the house was there then

it says gaze toward the isle, im not taking that as being able to see B island Or gaze north Toward the isle of B.

i found another yard arm in shore rd pk, it also has steps and a V link to a yardarm hxxp://www.gravesendflag.com/flag-pole_ ... -gaff.html

Another "v" I wondered about was Victory Boulevard.

Here's a random thought. A Topaz is the Russian prize: The royal sunstone, frozen fire. Liberty's copper torch is the "frozen fire", symbolised in the picture by the white chrysanthemum. (Under Liberty, note the four columns - corresponding to the four gems...?) In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path From Lighthouse Hill on Staten Island, you can see the New York Harbour across the Narrows. Maybe the arm that extends is Liberty's arm. (From the bottom up, the red marks show Lighthouse Hill, Emerson Hill named for Ralph's brother, Wagner College, Liberty Island. Victory Boulevard is the road joining Silver Lake Park and Clove Lakes Park, to the left of Wagner.)

cw0909 wrote:: i found another yard arm in shore rd pk, it also has steps and a V cw0909, The yard-arm location is where I was looking, too...at the pedestrian bridge.  It may not be as obvious a "v" as the walkway down the road near the baseball diamonds..(about 74th st.) AP

cw0909 wrote:: Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v cw0909 As much as I like that pedestrian bridge, this walkway by the baseball diamond has "steps" that start at "the middle of one branch of the v". The pedestrian bridge does not obviously fulfill that part of the verse...

ap your right i forgot the EAST directional,the V by the B field fits better hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 82#p110982 the V at the Bfield fits better hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 55#p111055

i love how ya'll do the map pics! cw can you get a better picture of this statue at the church? hxxp://www.saintjohns1834.org/ this guy kindof looks like the guy in image 9.........:/ hxxp://theweblicist.com/wordpress/2006/ ... ay-statue/ i don't mean to go back and forth......

cw0909 wrote:: a blog about the jpj ,with pics (...yeah, I started thinking about the JPJ area, then realised that boogieman & co looked at it pretty closely back in 2007...)

cw0909, Great coverage of the JPJ Park! I agree that JPJ park is more "in the shadow of the grey giant". It has wonderful older trees and a lot of walkways. The only sure way to tell is to be there in person. AP

i was thinking ,john paul jones led zeppelin, or john paul jones revolutionary war,maybe the face in the robe looking for a early pic of JPJ LZ, and pics of JPJ of rev war TY ap forgot to link JPJ rev war hxxp://www.sonofthesouth.net/revolution ... -jones.htm

just some info The reclamation of Narrows Botanical Gardens is an example of an important recent trend in park management: community involvement. These gardens have been improved as a result of the sustained efforts of many concerned local residents. Narrows Botanical Gardens hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/shorer ... ghts/11223 Shore Road Parks Conservancy hxxp://www.shoreroadparks.org/aboutus.html Shore Road Parks Conservancy is on Facebook hxxp://www.facebook.com/shoreroad hxxp://www.spirit-of-metal.com/membre_g ... s-4843.jpg hxxp://www.navysna.org/awards/Award%20P ... _Jones.jpg the park is JPJ------ The granite shaft by Sir Ashton Webb was a gift from England after World War I. These tributes to United States military history ushered in the 1969 name change to John Paul Jones Park. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/johnpa ... ghts/11908 As an officer of the Continental Navy of the American Revolution, John Paul Jones helped establish the traditions of courage and professionalism that the Sailors of the United States Navy today proudly maintain. John Paul was born in a humble gardener's cottage in Kirkbean, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland hxxp://www.history.navy.mil/bios/jones_jp.htm Life of John Paul Jones hxxp://www.jpj.demon.co.uk/jpjlife.htm

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bkln_ ... er_jeh.JPG hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/left-unins ... 361476805/ i like the shadow of wings cadman plaza park and walt whitman park is right beside it.... or could she be representing the goddess columbia, notre dame or just freedom (liberty park).....or just that she is suspended in the air like the verrazano bridge and its right under it or does the big shadow on her nose mean sunset  (park, or morningside)... summer---june 21st..............6 month,  21 day.........6th street, 21st  street? or beach, shore

It has always been my contention that In the shadow of the grey giant find the arm that extends over the slender path means that the rectangular structure in the window of image12 in One WTC where the observation deck was.  In the shadow of the Trade Center, find the bridge that extends over the Narrows Inlet.  This is the Verrazano, which is blue.  The trade center was grey. In summer, you will often hear a whirring sound.  Cars above you, around you, coming and going.  The bridge, the Belt Prkwy.  The whirring sound???  Cruising boats, fishing poles.  Could be anything.  Lots of noise under the bridge during the summer. Indies native?  Hamilton.  Still speaking natives?  Your guess is as good as mine. The Narrows Inlet is what got us to the Verrazano.  The rest of the verse gets us to the X.  We must be near the signs for Fort hamilton, IMO, and standing by the v.  The all elusive v.  I love what is being talked about here.  Shore park, the steps being the v and all.  And the Isle of B is almost 100% Liberty Island for me.  Bedloe's.  You can draw a straight line from north to south and cross both liberty island and the coast of the narrows, including Shore Park and JPJ Park.  And the other side too, Staten Island. Taking a stroll along the Narrows may just be what is needed here.  I will be there as soon as I can.

u know me boogieman, just throwing stuff out there, hoping something helps you i had thought the "whirring" noise was the ferries, but i mostly think (when i think of it)  "whirring" as fans, like madison square garden or, a sport arena, or something like that....i keep going all over the place, so not much help to you, but maybe these guys will really make something click for you, fresh eyes

If you Google on "helicopter, Statue of Liberty" you will see that there are multiple helicopter tour companies which include the Statue of Liberty in their tours.  That is a definite whirring sound. AP

If it is One WTC, and you find the arm over the Narrows, the X can be anywhere in between.  Even battery Park where we have the Hamilton Customs House.  Three Bank of NY buildings, which the Bank of NY was created by Hamilton.  Heli pads, big square clock set in grey, perfect view of Lady Liberty and Ellis Island (domed roof).  How's that for insanity?

There was some question about work done recently in Shore Rd Park, which questioned the age of the steps near the baseball diamond. I wrote to the Shore Road Parks Conservancy to see if the age of the steps could be verified.  This is the response I received: I've been in touch with Art DeCesario who is the Park & Recreation Manager for our District and in turn Art contacted Kaitilin Griffin who is the Parks' Librarian for NYC Dept of Parks & Recreation. The story from so far is that the park was transferred to Dept of Parks in 1945, so that the steps were in all likelihood built after that date, most probably by Moses before the end of his tenure in the late 1960's. As there are not any signs of a capital project since then for that section of the park it's quite probably the late 60's as indicated by Kaitilin. I am attending the monthly Executive Board meeting of the Conservancy this week and there are some life-long residents of Bay Ridge on the board so I will ask there as well. As I find out more I'll let you know. Best regards and many thanks for your interest. Robert Hutt Corresponding Secretary Shore Road Parks Conservancy

animal painter wrote:: Boogie, I don't think anyone expects you to go digging in the middle of winter. Speak for yourself AP We are counting on you Boogie....get out there and do your job.  lol

The Russian architecture might be St Petersburg, where Gershwin's parents came from. It's gotta be the Brooklyn side for me.

hxxp://www.ascemetsection.org/content/view/340/874/ hxxp://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigm ... /index.htm Cars abound ----------could be a parking lot, maybe where the staten island ferry or st. george terminal is located i like the beige/tan color at this terminal....like where her head is hxxp://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/20 ... in_st.html just thinking.......grover cleveland was the 22nd and 24th president of the US...and he was born in new jersey  .. hxxp://www.presidentialavenue.com/gc.cfm and he was the one that officially accepted the statue of liberty: hxxp://www.nj.gov/nj/about/resources/st ... berty.html

Boogie, Do you have a picture of the clock face that looks like the one in image 12? I think BP used some visual markers of Manhattan for the sake of narrowing down the possibilities of locations from around the entire country. (The same way he used silhouettes of recognizable city buildings in Milwaukee...City Hall.) Milwaukee's City Hall is not visible from the Lake Front, but it is a visual location clue. The same with NYC visual clues in image 12. They may not be visible from the exact treasure location, but they do narrow down the search. Some of these clues would be the WTC, the Russian Orthodox church silhouette, the bird (looking like the Chrysler building "gargoyle") the similar pose of Alice in Wonderland at Central Park to the pose of Image 12's figure...even the resemblance of the Mad Hatter's face to the face on the figure's robe. They point to Manhattan. Once BP gets us to NYC, he then directs us with the clues in the verse. AP

hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jewishfan/4800187901/ this url is from Battery Park at the southern tip of manhattan.  behind it is the heliport. BTW AP , your enthusiasm is very appreciated. You too Slappy and Co. Fox, i can use a man who knows how to dig holes......randomly. When's your next visit? White rabbit, all things point to brooklyn, but like JJP (artist for the images) once told me, elves can be tricksters you know.

Boogie, On the clock-face in image 12 the Roman numerals are drawn straight across and all are right side up. On almost every clock-face I have found so far, the numerals are drawn around the arc-shape of a circle..and the VI is always drawn upside down. When we find the VI  right-side-up and straight across, it may lead to a specific location. (Of course, there is always the rebus-type clue for Times Square.)

Boogieman, I like both JPJ park and Shore Rd Park. Looking at JPJ... (I know you have done some searching there already.) Positive points: 1. It is in the literal shadow of the grey giant 2. There is a yard arm over the path 3. There are several "v's" formed by paths. 4. You can look north toward the isle of B from there. 5. You can hear whirring, and cars abound (on the bridge). Find the path which points most East Take 22 steps...or more... (This may be 22 steps from the middle of the "v" or it may be 22 steps to the middle of the "v" Look down..."Simple roots" may mean just grass. There are several very good-sized trees in this area of JPJ. It may be that you could recognize the one which seems to be drawn in the shoulder-folds of the figure in image 12. At least that would narrow down the search area. This may all be a repeat of earlier posts...but I wanted to write it down in a current post. AP JPJ Park aerial JPJ Park from 101st St. tree-folds

I don't like that mysterious instruction, "twice as many east steps as the hour or more". That's extremely vague unless the casque is buried next to something. I tend to think that you must either be walking towards something recognisable, or there's some cryptic meaning for it. (One random thought was "amour" - Bedloe's used to be Love Island.)

i found a clock tower see map its at dyker, near ft ham pk/jpj pk havent found a better img though, for the VI that ap is talking about clock tower Poly Preparatory Country Day School 9216 Seventh Avenue Brooklyn, New York 11228-3698 map hxxp://tinyurl.com/46sex2a pic of clock hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... .tower.jpg hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polyclock.jpg info bottom of pg, it says, can be seen from far and wide in Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/NEIGHBORHOO ... /bath.html

wouldn't ellis island fit the scheme? with immigration and it was once called "the island of tears" and that looks like teardrops in the image hxxp://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/el ... istory.asp k, never mind, i'm back on alexander hamilton custom house and battery park

cw0909 wrote:: i found a clock tower see map its at dyker (That's right by the Victory Memorial Hospital.)

what if the 4 "teardrops"  are for the 4 continents on the alexander hamilton custom house......and the europe one has an eagle and a bull (which would explain the buffalo i see in image 12) hxxp://www.oldnycustomhouse.gov/history ... hester.asp hxxp://www.europesname.eu/16_Your_Comme ... d_half.htm hamilton is involved somehow somewhere, lol castle garden, the first immigration center

looking for the tree in the robe, maybe an arm of the tree is the arm we are looking for, in the links click pics,opens new window big hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=38784 a tree hxxp://www.hmdb.org/PhotoFullSize.asp?PhotoID=64455 yardarm and a tree far right hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=19277 bigger hxxp://www.hmdb.org/PhotoFullSize.asp?PhotoID=64455 more trees hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?MarkerID=13202 The Church of the Generals St. John’s Episcopal Church hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=13271 big hxxp://www.hmdb.org/PhotoFullSize.asp?PhotoID=42288 list of markers in brooklyn hxxp://www.hmdb.org/results.asp?Town=Br ... New%20York another pic of clock hxxp://www.michaelminn.net/newyork/infr ... -28-51.jpg dover patrol hxxp://www.michaelminn.net/newyork/infr ... -50-33.jpg pics of V bridge, and surrounding areas click pic=big hxxp://www.michaelminn.net/newyork/infr ... ws_bridge/ video of pk,and bike tours of the area, i didnt look see those hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxPXBAylPI

animal painter wrote:: I think BP used some visual markers of Manhattan for the sake of narrowing down the possibilities of locations from around the entire country. (The same way he used silhouettes of recognizable city buildings in Milwaukee...City Hall.) Milwaukee's City Hall is not visible from the Lake Front, but it is a visual location clue. The same with NYC visual clues in image 12. They may not be visible from the exact treasure location, but they do narrow down the search. Some of these clues would be the WTC, the Russian Orthodox church silhouette, the bird (looking like the Chrysler building "gargoyle") the similar pose of Alice in Wonderland at Central Park to the pose of Image 12's figure...even the resemblance of the Mad Hatter's face to the face on the figure's robe. They point to Manhattan. Once BP gets us to NYC, he then directs us with the clues in the verse. AP I still think our major confirmer image is this:

verrazano in battery park hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... ghts/12324 emma lazarus hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... uments/891 hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batterypark/highlights hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/348 ... otostream/ 3 story samuel morse might have something to do with "vols." hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_%28insignia%29 a V hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/348 ... otostream/ "the powerful chevrons"  over the entrance hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/348 ... otostream/ almost 1st day of summer hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/348 ... otostream/ 3 city blocks

what if the the V is part of the arm, like maybe a tree limb see the tree in the foreground, the arm/limb of the tree extends over the path, and the limb and the trunk of the tree form a V, and if someone is looking, look for a cut tree limb/arm that may have extended over the path click on = big hxxp://quirkynyc.com/wp-content/uploads ... d-path.jpg another example hxxp://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/24189 ... 450226.jpg one more hxxp://pixdaus.com/single.php?id=250881 directions for the buried casque In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. identifiers for park where the casque is buried In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.

AP: I think you are equating "grey giant" with the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. I don't think this is true. First, better candidates are the Statue of Liberty (literally a grey giant) or Manhattan itself. In both cases, "in the shadow of" can be read simply as "near." Second, I strongly feel that if the casque is in this area, "the arm that extends over the slender path" must be the bridge itself. It's more of BP's clever word-play, with "slender" referring to the "Narrows." This is the reasoning that led us to this area in the first place. BP wouldn't refer to the bridge both as the "arm" and as the "grey giant." He also wouldn't use the word "slender" unless it meant something special (all paths are slender, but only some are "slender"). My point is that it is logically inconsistent to use the phrase "the arm that extends over the slender path" first one way to get to the general location, and then in a completely different way once you're there.

I thought the statue of liberty was green

Malted, Yes, Lady Liberty is definitely green. That is one thing that made me start looking for a different "grey giant". When you look at the Statue of Liberty on Google images.. you are struck by the green patina in every photo. But when you look at Verrazano-Narrows Bridge on Google images, you see grey arches.  Taking the Google-street view across the bridge, you are struck by the immensity of the structure! For years, I have been caught in the "Narrows=Slender" mindset. But just lately the bridge has looked more like a grey giant to me. Also, finding the "slender" bike path along Shore Rd., gave me pause, especially when a yard arm was near it. Finding the name of Liberty Island once having been Bedloe's Island, also gave me reason to look at parks which were South of it. The discovery of the "steps" in the Shore Rd. Park was a real surprise! BP has used the words "paces and steps" to move us along a route. It could be either measured lengths or physical risers. Only the uncovering of a casque will prove us right or wrong. AP

i figured the spelling "grey"  was because the french gave it to us, (statue of liberty) usually spelled like that by the french or canadiens i still love jpj park, because everything seems to fit the directions, but just in case, still checking other areas but if it's at jpj, the dover patrol obelisk has 19 22 hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/199 ... otostream/ on it and john paul jones flagstaff is in the Middle of the park and he would be the rhapsodic guy right? and he's the Father (simple roots, family tree ) of the navy hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/201 ... otostream/

The use of the grey spelling is not unusual apparently. It was used to describe the color of the bridge in this article.... The bridge was red as it was built and clad in steel, painted "battleship grey", before the openin g. excepted from the following link: hxxp://everything2.com/title/Verrazano+Narrows+Bridge

Don't want to "muddy the water"... but in my searching of the NYC area, I found that Roosevelt Island was called Blackwell's Island until 1921.  It was infamous (after the expose of corruption in its prison) in a movie of the same name "Blackwell's Island". If BP's visual clues are all related to Manhattan Island, could he have been pointing to a park area on Manhattan...like the East River Park? What about the Hamilton sign nearby...or a "v"? So many clues...so little time...

Unknown: I thought the statue of liberty was green A minor technicality.

This is a sculpture in East River Park. Reminds me of the face in the fabric of image 12? I do not know when it was created. The photo was posted in 2007.

had this thought with all you guys talking about the clock and the roman numerals..., if the image is flipped, like some of the others, that vi would be iv.........like the 4th of july on the statue in roman numerals and also saw this line........".on the northern end of madison square, on an island bordered by Broadway" also, can't find it now but on the subways there are something called islands.......... still kindof looking at george washington for the "twice as many east steps as the hour.........2  times 11......22

Other walkway sculptures were created in 2001....

There is yet one more "isle of B" near Manhattan. It is Belmont Island...a small uninhabited piece of land just south of Roosevelt (Blackwell's) Island. So we have at least 3 "isles of B" to consider: Bedloe's Island (Liberty) Blackwell's Island (Roosevelt) Belmont Island (U Thant) With the sign mentioning Hamilton, and Gershwin (rhapsodic man) being born in Brooklyn, with the shadow of the grey giant (Verrazano) and the "v"s and "steps" of the park walkways and the yard arm present... I am still more of a fan of JPJ or Shore Rd Park. AP

animal painter wrote:: With the sign mentioning Hamilton, and Gershwin (rhapsodic man) being born in Brooklyn, with the shadow of the grey giant (Verrazano) and the "v"s and "steps" of the park walkways and the yard arm present... I am still more of a fan of JPJ or Shore Rd Park. AP Me too AP.  But the WTC is still the giant to me. I have been to JPJ Park many times.  (Battery Park many times.)  Even dug near the John Paul Jones Memorial with Fox.  There are no visual confirmers there except the arches of the bridge, which is image12.  When the snow melts, Shore Park, here I come.

Boogie, The Shore Rd Park does have its attraction. The steps' existence having been validated by a park representative, at the right time for BP to have seen them in the 1970s or 1980s. As for visual verifiers, the tree in the folds of the robe may be what we need to recognize the spot. Boogie, as a native New Yorker, were you familiar with the earlier names for the three isles of B? Were these names spoken about in school or just as a matter of local reference? AP

I have an idea for the identity of "him of Hard word". The verse says: The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. What if BP were referring to William Woodward, Jr. ..from NYC...heir to the Hanover Banking fortune? (Hard=Wood) Wood-word...Woodward He was shot by his wife in 1955...but she was not convicted. It was called "The shooting of the century." New York natives may still talk about it. Three novels were written about him: (BP was after all in the publishing business.) Truman Capote's novel, Answered Prayers Dominick Dunne's novel, The Two Mrs. Grenvilles , and Susan Braudy's novel, This Crazy Thing Called Love . The William Woodward, Jr. Nursery School was created in his memory and is located in Manhattan at: 436 E 69th St New York, NY 10065 hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Woodward,_Jr . hxxp://everything2.com/title/And+Justice+for+All%253F Post Script...the books listed were written after 1982... (Capotes early version of his book was published in Esquire in 1975. and was responsible for Woodward's wife's suicide.) But vols could be referring to volumes of the magazines and newspapers of the days...among them... Life , Tim e and Esquire ran articles that are quoted.

I love it! Good thinking, AP. It is difficult to reconcile the "3 vols" however. But let's say that William Woodward is the wrong guy, but "Woodward" is still correct. A google search for: "woodward" "three volumes" "new york" ...still netted 130,000 hits, so I see a lot of potential.

FB, You 're right. William Woodward, Sr. was also a famous and wealthy New Yorker who was into breeding thoroughbreds and hobnobbing with royalty. Between him and his son Wm. Jr.... the playboy...there must be 3 books which tell of their lives. AP

BP could be referring to New York City authors (natives) who wrote about Bob Woodward...and his part in the uncovering of Watergate... He may not be saying that "him of Hard word" is from New York...but the natives who wrote about him. Surely there are three books written by New York City authors on Woodward! Is he trying to get us to equate this all with NYC for general location, or his he trying to get us to see the name Woodward on a park or building? AP

i like the hanover banking stuff.........looking into it, i found this India House Club @ 1 hanover square, it's right around all the financial stuff, and India.....indies? hxxp://www.indiahouseclub.org/Default.a ... 3637&vnf=1 hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_Square,_Manhattan hxxp://www.indiahouseclub.org/Default.a ... 3637&vnf=1 hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/M212/highlights/6459 hxxp://www.nyu.edu/classes/finearts/nyc ... india.html

I have always wondered why the "tower" in image 12 was outlined in red. I think I may have figured it out. Our visual clues seem to all be in Manhattan. There is a small park directly across from the UN...called Ralph Bunche Park. (on 1st Ave between 42nd and 43rd st) In Sept of 1980, they erected this memorial obelisk there. It is made of reflective silver metal...and when you look at it, its edges are red...reflecting the red brick from the surrounding buildings.

The image 12 "tower" also bears a resemblance to the side view of the UN Building... but it is not outlined in red...

So many clues focusing on Manhattan. I had been drawn to Brooklyn, because Gershwin was born in Brooklyn, but now...I find that one of Gershwin's famous musical pieces is called.. "Manhattan Rhapsody"  (also called New York Rhapsody or Second Rhapsody).  It was written as the score for the 1931 movie "Delicious". You can hear it at this link...at the bottom of the page. hxxp://www.jackgibbons.com/2nd_rhapsody.htm This opens the possibility of Manhattan as the location of the casque.  I see a walkway at 10th st and at 6th st over East River Dr. Bikeway leading to East River Park, (an arm over a slender path) where there are baseball diamonds ("v") with a branch heading East.  One ends almost at the River's edge, where you can look north to gaze at Belmont or Blackwell's Island. There are signs for Hamilton dotted over Manhattan (as well as nearby Hamilton Fish Park). Food for thought. This is the Eastward branch of the ball-field just north of the Williamsburg Bridge. The treeline goes almost to the river...where you might see "simple roots".

OMG....welcome to my nightmare AP!

Boogie, I'm sorry for creating more possibilities... I found that BP's office was on Manhattan (24 W. 25th St.) So I started to "Google-walk around" his work place to see if clues were things he saw every day. It does seem that BP did prefer to bury casques in our-of-the-way places.  Shore Rd. Park is still a good candidate. AP

Boogie, Had you ever heard of the three alternate "B" island names before? AP

One branch of the V?? hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of ... 179126841/

I added one more picture to my previous post to show the Eastward branch of the ball-field by the Williamsburg Bridge. There are other ball-fields along the river that may have good tree-areas to bury a casque unseen at the end of the "v" of the ball diamond.

I was taking a look at the pedestrian bridge you pointed out on P51 and noticed this: Symbols.com suggests this is a symbol for "Copper" and "Venus". Sounds like a pretty good description of the Statue of Liberty... hxxp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/06/062.html As Fox pointed out, there's also a belt tie-in with the image. It's an arm over a slender path or "belt" (Belt Pkwy) which is in the shadow of its big brother the grey giant, figuratively speaking. (Here's a shot of Verrazano through its archway.) These could be the steps. The circle is this flagpole. From the middle of one branch of the V... (Here's the view north from the crossing. She's out there somewhere.) The other semicircle in the image might provide a clue to pinpointing the location within the flagpole area... ...or it could be some clock thing.

Nice graphics, WhiteRabbit! The artist may have used just this kind of thing. Here is a map showing some of the possible locations of interest. BP's office is in the middle of Manhattan. Sutton Place Synagogue was where BP was a member. The Ralph Bunche Obelisk may be in image 12 The UN Building might even be the "grey giant". The Chrysler Building may be home to the bird-head gargoyle. A Ball-field in East River Park may be the "v" A little farther North, to the East of Central Park (not on the map) is the Church of St. Jean Baptiste, that looks very much like church silhouette.

The stretch of Belt Parkway under that bridge is called Leif Ericson Drive. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B166/highlights/11917 Leif was a viking - maybe the grey stone with the red outline is a viking symbol. If you search Google Images for viking runestones, there's a lot of this kind of thing. There's a Leif Ericson park in the area which might have one. Down ice green fjords of Scandinavia, and away to the Land of the Eagle - P15

A few more Manhattan locations added to the map: A. William Woodward (Hard-word) Jr. Nursery School B. Sutton Place Synagogue (BP was a member) C. Church of St. Jean Baptiste (church silhouette) D. Ralph Bunche Obelisk (rectangular image outlined in red?) E. UN Building (maybe rectangular image or grey giant) F. Central Park (Alice in Wonderland statue with arms  posed like image 12 and possible similar face of Mad Hatter statue to the face in the robe) hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/huumbug/2495613305/ G. BP's office H. East River Park with ball-fields..."v's" form ball diamonds from which you can see Belmont or Blackwell's Island (isle of B) I. Chrysler Building (bird head gargoyle) J. Mahayana Buddhist Temple in Chinatown (oriental lion statues like animals in water) (See photo below) K. Roosevelt (Blackwell's) or Belmont Island (isle of B) L. Gershwin Hotel (I have since changed my mind about this Lion statue and found a Bear Figure by the Delacorte Clock at Central Park.) (See update on next page)

animal painter wrote:: The image 12 "tower" also bears a resemblance to the side view of the UN Building... It could also be a location where only one of the twin towers could be seen, or a spot where the view of one was blocked by the other.

Cormac, It is possible...but I was intrigued by the red outline. AP

animal painter wrote:: A. William Woodward (Hard-word) Jr. Nursery School B. Sutton Place Synagogue (BP was a member) C. Church of St. Jean Baptiste (church silhouette) D. Ralph Bunche Obelisk (rectangular image outlined in red?) E. UN Building (maybe rectangular image or grey giant) F. Central Park (Alice in Wonderland statue with arms posed like image 12 and possible similar face of Mad Hatter statue to the face in the robe) hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/huumbug/2495613305/ G. BP's office H. East River Park with ball-fields..."v's" form ball diamonds from which you can see Belmont or Blackwell's Island (isle of B) I. Chrysler Building (bird head gargoyle) J. Central Park Delacorte clock Bear (animal in water) see photo below To see the animated figures, go here: hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clLHA0WE0gk K. Roosevelt (Blackwell's) or Belmont Island (isle of B) L. Gershwin Hotel Once more I have modified the map. Today I found a better match to the animal in the foamy water in image 12. It is a bear figure by the Delacorte Clock... another Central Park location...not Chinatown. You can watch the animals on the clock move around, at the link posted below. I know someone said that BP denied burying a casque in Central Park, so it is merely a clue to get us in the right area.

Re: the bridge, this is the Fort Hamilton sign: Flagpole cross and Tricolore...? (Same colours as the Russian flag, though in a different order.) (OK, so you'd have to be slightly colourblind.)

There are at least two statues of A. Hamilton in Manhattan; one in Central Park and one on the border of Central Park at the Museum Of the City of New York...Hmmm Will the casque be in Manhattan or Brooklyn? East River Park...or Shore Rd. Park?

Another possible candidate for "him of Hard word"... Edward Durell Stone...architect Several books written about him and by him. Though not a native born New Yorker, he lived there and worked there and died there. His list of New York buildings is long. I have not yet looked on a map to see just where they are located as pertaining to this hunt.

AP, that's just amazing (the bear)! A very good match. This could be one of those little clues to let us know we're at least in the right city (like maybe the "legeater" lamppost in Montreal?).

animal painter wrote:: Another possible candidate for "him of Hard word"... Edward Durell Stone...architect Several books written about him and by him. Though not a native born New Yorker, he lived there and worked there and died there. His list of New York buildings is long. I have not yet looked on a map to see just where they are located as pertaining to this hunt. As much as I like the word play of Hard-word...Woodward, I must admit that Edward Durell Stone , with his extensive catalog of New York architecture is much more likely to be "him of Hard word". One of Stone's famous New York buildings is just a few blocks from Central Park...in our Manhattan area. hxxp://www.nyc-architecture.com/UES/UES034.htm Some of his other buildings are even more famous: (and are in the nearby area) Radio City Music Hall, Museum of Modern Art, Columbus Circle hxxp://www.nyc-architecture.com/ARCH/ARCH-Stone.htm hxxp://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID095.htm

Looking for any out-of-the-way park on the East River to be able to look north at Blackwell's or Belmont Island. Here is a small park just north of East River Park... It is called Murphy Park , and it has a ball-diamond. If you walk 22 steps toward East...starting from the half way of the branch of the "v", you would end up in the secluded corner of the park, near a tree that might just match the tree in the shoulder robe-folds.

Alice and the bear are good, and according to your map they're in the right relative positions too. Russia is "The Great Bear". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Bear

Are you ready for this? Just when you thought it was safe to say that we knew all of the possibilities for "isle of B".... Who knew that Ward's Island was once a separate island, which is now connected to Randall's Island by landfill? "...the island's name changed several times. At times it was known as " Buchanan's Island " and " Great Barn Island ," both of which were likely corruptions of the surname " Barendt ," the name of an early owner." If this is a possible "isle of B", we could be standing on Hellgate Field, Astoria Park or (maybe Charles Schurz on Manhattan) to gaze at the "isle of B"! Hellgate and Astoria parks are in Queens .  Is that still Gershwin's soil? If BP wanted to really throw us off by using this name for Ward's Island...it worked! All of the visual clues are still on Manhattan Island...Maybe we are supposed to stay on the West side of the East River... hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?hl=&rlz=1B3 ... CB8QnwIwAA hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/M107/highlights/12869

Here is a link to the earlier map of 1896 showing the separate and distinct Ward's Island...previously Buchanan's Island hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Long_ ... p_1896.jpg

Guess what there is at Carl Schurz Park?.... a yard arm !  This park is going to need an inspection!

There appear to be 22 steps in this part of Charles Schurz Park. Just looking around.... The statue in the garden is Peter Pan.

i like that play on words "toward the isle of B"----------to ward B

Good eye, Slappy! I didn't see that before. It does seem that we will have several "isle of B"'s to consider. Bedloe's Blackwell's (with Belmont nearby) Buchanan's The nearby sign of Hamilton may help us. I was looking for anything that resembles the colorful circles to be a location clue... like a color-lit fountain. AP

i know we thought of times square long time ago because of the clock in the square in the image. but think of these references..............in summer. ........... .time of year take twice as many steps as the hour .......................... twice= 2 times .................... .hour (time ) will be doing more research tomorrow at times square..oh here's a pic of the ball for new years..............another "time" reference hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Times_Square_ball.jpg ( i put this on image 12 thread too)

Personally I still think this thing is in Brooklyn, where we seemed to have a lot of possible correlations going on. At the moment the idea of starting over somewhere else doesn't grab me unless it comes ready-made with a bunch of confirmers. But "In summer" and "twice as many or more" are weird. I don't get that. The only idea I've come across for the whirring sound in summer in Brooklyn so far is helicopters. It's not ideal, though I expect there's a danger of trying too hard.

WhiteRabbit, The verse does seem to lead us to Brooklyn. Shore Rd. Park is still a favorite...especially with its "v" which has "steps" starting halfway along each side. The definitions of the "grey giant" and the "isle of B" will help narrow the possibilities. The "grey giant"... Is it the Verrazano bridge or the Statue of Liberty or the UN Building? It would make sense for it to be the bridge...since it is a double layer road where cars "abound". The "isle of B"... Bedloes, Blackwell's, Buchanan or Belmont? Identifying  the "isle of B" which we are to gaze toward, would also help us, by allowing us to look South of it to find the casque location. The thing that gets me, is the use of so many Manhattan visual clues in image 12.  If BP just wanted to let us know that he was referring to New York City, he could easily have used one building, as he did in Milwaukee.  But he used even more detailed visual clues, like the bear on the Delacourt Clock and the statue pose of "Alice in Wonderland", both in Central Park...the Chrysler Building gargoyle...and possibly the Ralph Bunche obelisk. We need a visual clue for Brooklyn...close to the casque location. At this time,  the "tree-in-the-robe-folds" may be our only close-by clue.

(...yeah, it's like New Orleans, where there seem to be plausible clues for widely separated landmarks such as Lafayette Square, Storyland and Preservation Hall. The solved Grecian image seemed to present a pretty clear indication to the location. I've been thinking of the grey giant as the bridge, but I guess it could well be Liberty. I like that the picture seems to show Liberty, though I haven't looked at the UN Building yet. Didn't mean to sound opposed to investigating alternatives, since it could still be anywhere...)

...it's just a crazy idea, but here it is anyway. I was experimenting with a map of the image which included the Verrazano area and the bear in Central Park. Here I've circled the bear and the Shore Road Park area, and stuck the flower in the Brooklyn Botanic Garden . (Looking at it this way, the bridge could be the belt.) I also did a search for Webster (as one of the old suggestions for him of Hard word) and turned up nearby Webster Place...

hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/88058079@N00/284932846/ This is the photo that I saw a few years ago that lead me to believe that the grey giant was Two WTC,  that the Narrows was the slender path.  This photo was taken from the observation deck in the mid 80's.  I had to use the word "shadow" as a metaphor to make it work, the real shadow went east to west where as the bridge is south.  The one thing missing from this photo that I would like to see is Battery park.  That is the southern tip of Manhattan and would be in the picture if it were a tad bigger.  I am sad, in more ways then one, that that observation deck is no longer there. Look at the picture and recite the verse to yourselves and see if you can see what I saw.

reading this today made me think the "grey giant" was a tower or a lighthouse The shining tower rose out of the water like a grey giant, warning the tiny ... “Let him do his own thing lads, this is no ordinary horse,” Mickey concluded. .... Ballynaul, Mister mister and the Bony Boy put it up to the judge not sure if this guy wrote that, but just found scottish ballads by james "semple"............strange huh simple roots....

I dont know if it really is a tower.  But it is something big.  Whether it be the WTC, or the Statue of liberty, you can see the entire landscape of our treasure area from the top of either of them in 1981.  Which too me, leaves Battery Park or Brooklyn Bay Ridge area.  Hamilton is found at both sites.  Rhapsodic man may not be.

Nice pic boogieman. * * * * * Take twice as many east steps as the hour "...from the East, from the Far Marches, from the wide snowy Steppes and boundless fertile plains of Russia...across the winter prairie to the Black Sea shore..." (p15)

I always thought that the grey giant was the City of New York itself. Since the sun rises in the east, "In the shadow" of the grey giant would have to mean west of the city. When you are talking about the city, with so many large structures--bridges, skyscrapers, monuments--it would be really almost impossible to pick out just one and call that one a "giant" anything. Compared to the entire city, which IS a giant (and which, BTW, has a team called the Giants,) nothing seems large enough to be called a single giant. That's why I took this as far more general than specific.

For Charleston we have the mystery of the Gold Bug, for Roanoke there's the mystery of the 13th colony, and for New York we have The Shore Road Mystery. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shore_Road_Mystery Hardy Boys - Hard word...? There might be some whirring sounds going on in Franklin Dixon's other books. Eg: "...rustling among the leaves of the trees was followed by a whirring sound..." hxxp://fliiby.com/download.php?f_id=409 ... kg.rtf&s=1 "Microcosm, honest reader, is a hard word." (Another Franklin - Benjamin.) In three vols... hxxp://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8360722 Clock on 11. Eleventh Hardy Boys book - "While the clock ticked". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/While_the_Clock_Ticked Or maybe that's the one we use to solve New Orleans.  ;)

i'm sorry, i keep posting verse stuff on the image stuff, so i'll post here what i posted on the image 12 : nd some guy owned that land (columbus circle..central park).......guess what his name was... john somerindyck   ......in summer.......summer in  Grin here's more for my theory of the subway or railways..........the door motors make a "whirring" sound hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_%28Ne ... way_car%29 "The old cars made an odd whirring noise as the electric motor powered the car. I also remember the putt-putt-putt sound made by the car's air compressor for the air brakes. The very ol" hxxp://johnsantic.com/nyc_dorm/ and trying to go that PATH with the subways (and i hate maps) but would "in summer", make you think of the bahamas (in the west indies)?  (or Jamaica) and the capital of bahamas is "nassau"  , then the "whirring" line, be the subway......., cars abound (parking lot?)

hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/332155554/ this mentions "22"  west indies, east indies i would love for this to be it, but it doesn't seem to have been there for BP hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/332 ... otostream/ and this mentions immigrants also: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/332 ... otostream/

Since Verse 7 is fitting Image 7 I would say that this Verse or Verse 6 goes with Image 1

Find the arm that Extends over the slender path The definition of "arm": A relatively narrow extension jutting out from a large mass Usually an arm is attached to something only on one end. If we look at the "slender path" as the Narrows that refers to the entire area shown in red. That covers the Brooklyn-side shore from Owl's Head Park to the Verrazano Bridge. (Brooklyn is the land on which Gershwin was born.) The most obvious "arm" is the 69th street pier.  It juts out from the shore and extends over the Narrows. So if we are walking toward the pier from the Verrazano Bridge (grey giant), we pass several signs that display the name "Hamilton". The 69th St. Pier and Bedloe's Island (Liberty Island) are both visible from Shore Rd Park, but not from JPJ Park. I am still liking Shore Rd. Park with its v-shaped sidewalk comprised of "steps" half way along. The trees in image 12 may be the final x-marks-the-spot clues if we can find them. AP P.S.  The bulk of the visual clues may be used only to get us to New York City, since they are seen in locations where most tourists would go when visiting the city.

I do like the Edward Durell Stone connection to him of Hard word , because of his architectural influence in New York City....and New Yorkers writing about him in various volumes of architectural literature. But if you want to zero in on Brooklyn, you could also say that the history of the Ft. Hamilton area does have several references to Stone wall Jackson...with at least two streets named after him there.. Stonewall Jackson Dr. and Jackson Ct.  There are books written about him , serving at Ft. Hamilton.

How about this for a spot: Monastery Square, a park in Brooklyn one block from the Narrows. Evidently there is a view north (to the isle of B?) from the ridge here. A quote from the Visitation Monastery's website: "Consequently, a new site was sought and found in an uncultivated section of Brooklyn, called Bay Ridge. The new property consisted of about seven acres of land and two buildings. The Sisters admired the location, with its excellent landscaped gardens and fine trees, all of which were enhanced by a magnificent view of the Narrows, Upper New York Bay, Staten Island, and the New Jersey coast ." If only that view weren't blocked by the 20-foot-tall wall surrounding virtually the entire grounds...

if up to the part "speaks of indies native is hamilton parkway doesn't gowanus express way fit for "the natives still speak"  ......... express yourself means to speak , and i'm sure i read where gowanu s were native americans from that area so then we come to mckinley park, where part of it is named after monsignour sweeney and richard kennedy, who both preached at St. Ephrem's Parish hxxp://www.stephremparish.com/SaintEphremsHistory.asp (found this one) hxxp://www.stephremparish.com/Welcome.asp so then i looked up St. Ephrem and he was a HYMN ographer and theologian hymn of Hard Word........ him of hard word hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian "The principal edition of the Syrian and Greek texts is that which appeared in Rome in 6 vols. fol., 1732-46, under papal authority’, - 3 vols. Greek text, with Latin translation, edited by J. S. Assemani, a nd 3 vols. Syrian text, also with Latin translation, edited by Petrus Benedictus and S. E. Assemani. " hxxp://www.earlychurch.org.uk/ephraem.php okay leveler heads than mine, does this make sense? or maybe, right above mckinley park to leif erricson square, since it is shaped like the building outlined in red.... i like that leif ericson is spelled with a "V" hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B052/monuments and look boogieman! "rhapsodic man's soil"................... TUNE, Norway hxxp://piercingmetal.com/wordpress/wp-c ... 040002.jpg

wouldn't this make sense?  BP is telling us through roads , the path to get there for that matter, from mckinley to leiv ericson makes a big V and it could be the very last dragon  ;D i guess that is a dragon around the stele and here from the park name hxxp://piercingmetal.com/wordpress/?p=2736#more-2736 : boogieman, if you look on the map on p. 10....the russian line goes thru the norwegian area and leif ericson was norwegian hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B052/highlights having a hard time finding good pictures of the troll and animal pavers, but i know we've posted them before

Tune, Norway -- I love it!!

Bad news for important trees: There was a freak tornado in Leif Ericson Park in 2007: hxxp://www.brooklynparrots.com/2007/08/brooklyn-parrots-survive-devastating.html Weirdly, there is a colony of parrots there, just like at Coit Tower in SF.

forest, remember how we used highway #12 for "in december" at roanoke? do you think "in summer" means 6th avenue?  or 6th street (which goes over the williamsburg bridge to brooklyn, (domino sugar and the navy yard, and ends at washington plaza (or continental army plaza), which is a terminal  ;D  ) don't you think we should take that PATH? chief engineer of the bridge was leffert l. buck (leffert's curve is mentioned in the book), i saw where they had a celebration on the 22nd of june to celebrate its 100th bday, but b4 it says it was opened on dec. 19th 1903

around mccarren park you have a russian orthodox church and another church with  a clock tower (607 humboldt street). hxxp://nycslav.blogspot.com/2008/09/wal ... point.html (oops! this should have been with the image 12 thread, gonna put it over there too) if it's between these two churches, seems like it would be at mccarren park

but then on the other hand...if it is 6th avenue ......i think it goes to washington square park.......which would make the line "take twice (2)  as many east steps as the hour  (11)      (22) washington's bday...... and then again......fort greene park in brooklyn was washington park..........

okay, "him" can be a male or a thing (redundant?), lol so i'm thinking this whole "him" is a bridge..............gonna look into the hell gate bridge.......since she looks like she's an angel "The Hell Gate Bridge connects Wards Island to Astoria Queens"..............To Ward the isle of B architect Gustav Lindenthal, Othmar Ammann lol, and see a dictionary does fit....................an  a bridge d one (abridged)  (hard word in 3 vols.).......it didn't have to be webster's dictionary, just any old abridged one  ;D but it could be any of the great bridges in ny... but with twice (2) as many east steps as the hour (11)=22........must be george washington bridge? the williamsburg does end right at washington plaza.............. and washington park road is right by fort greene park

slappy wrote:: forest, remember how we used highway #12 for "in december" at roanoke? I remember that theory, but I don't buy it. I think "December" is a reference to the Wright Brothers' first successful flight at Kitty Hawk, which took place in December.

forest! ya gotta give me hope!  how do you feel about the bridge theory, or  george washington something or other for the line about "twice...." ? i'm glad you liked Tune, Norway not giving all that up yet either, just get distracted to other areas what about gowanus expressway for "the natives still speak" ? we know he did word play with the road names and i'm not sure, think i'll keep checking up on the 6th streets......

Slappy, You are indefatigable! (That's said as a compliment... ) Looking at Stonewall Jackson for him of Hard word that natives still speak of in 3 volumes... I found that "Lee's Lieutenants: A Study in Command" by Douglas Southall Freeman,  is a 3-volume set that was written originally in 1940 and republished several times...once in 1972. Charles Scribner's Sons of New York City , is the publisher. It is all about the soldiers who served under Robert E. Lee... Stonewall Jackson being one of them who served at Ft. Hamilton with Lee. With Jackson Ct. near JPJ park, and Stonewall Jackson Dr. just on the other side of the Verrazano Bridge, it seemed to be a street-name-clue for the location. I am trying to pin down each line of verse 10...like you are... Let's keep at it! AP

slaps, the day I hand you free, no-strings-attached hope will be when I see you in person holding a mud-encrusted casque in your grubby paws. Unless I say I like a theory, you can bet I regard it with a high degree of skepticism. But maybe I don't get the gowanus connection -- explain? I, too, appreciate your indefatigability. Also, your perspicacity.

thank you guys we have to get lucky sooner or later! not sure how perspicacious i am (had to look it up) but i guess it does seem i get like a dog with a bone, just won't let it go....lol forest, i was thinking the line:  "The natives still speak" --- might be Gowanus Expressway natives= Gowanus "The area really doesn't have a name, so I usually call it what it was called in the past: Gowanus, after an Indian tribe or chief. " hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/SLICES/gowanus/gowanus.html still speak (express yourself, to talk)= Express way it's right there by the verrazano bridge with the line before that being : speaks of Indies native = Hamilton Park, fort hamilton, or fort hamilton parkway(another road) i'm not stuck on anything yet, waiting for more perspicacious  ( ) minds than mine to let me know if it made sense (because of my tendency to zooooooom out there) i don't see me being a real hunter, i can't be sneaky and i always get caught, so i just hope to help and would love it if i did come up with the one thing that made every one say....!that's it!!..............like johann did for the cleveland one. i would love to help boogieman find this one in new york! can't stop, lol found another clock: hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... illie.html

Oh! Now I get it. Yeah, now I really like the Gowanus theory -- that's clever. If only BP had thought of it

Love your words FB. Can I have one? What label do I get?

Fox, I have a word for you... Frabjous ...It's like fabulous, but with a lemon twist. (word credited to Lewis Carroll...) AP

edison's birthday is today........february 11th just thought i 'd mention him since i keep coming across him in my research.......2  11 even in researching the cememtery  he was mentioned because he needed the copper from which marcus daly mined

Frabjous fox. . . That has a nice ring to it. Thanks!

This was interesting local history...and probably not relevant to the verse, but I found out that the construction boss for the Verrazano Bridge was known as: John " Hard Nose" Murphy. In the book entitled "The Bridge" (publ 1964) written by local Gay Talese, he tells about "Hard Nose" Murphy and how he pushed to build the bridge in record time. The book also has a chapter entitled "The Indians" which tells about the Mohawk Indians who worked on the Verrazano bridge as iron-workers...and spent their time off at a bar called The Wigwam at 75th Nevins St. in the Gowanus area (now a pharmacy...) This book is very interesting reading, hxxp://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Building-V ... 0802776442 along with these two blogs about the Bay Ridge area: hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... ridge.html hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... ridge.html

okay guys, i really believe this verse and image  is for scandinavia..here's why: in "The Passage to the New World"  at front of book: "1st t set foot...Ruddy Alf, saga (leif ericson), copper haired sea trolls of nortland , he who bragged . ...(speak).often sang .......left scandia to brave alone the Hellhounds (guard the dead.......cemetery?)........left a single print from his reindee rhide boots....on the beach, and he who came back to harp (speak) on it. (this could be l eif ericson drive or the park) "down ice green fjords of scandinavian and away to the land of the eagle, then sailed the elle folk ( L) ..in their Long ships(long island)....squat, squinting Wood (green wood cemetery)..and in the bows ......... faces set to the cold, salt air ( sunset park )..........the elves themselves, yellow hair streaming in the wind (yellow hook, bayridge area)....blue-gray eyes set on the far horizon (new york yankees? and sunset park)...........of all the folks of [b]Jotunheim (home of the giants, new york giants)[/b].........some stayed behind and they turned into wooden playthings for the children (park)" wondering if we couldn't take the body of the bird and make it an owl f rom image 12 ( yellow block) and her head ( yellow block)......... owl's head park on leif ericson's drive, and the feet of the bird could be a "hook"................ yellow hair streaming in the wind.............just use the yellow blocks from the image hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/OwlsHe ... lights/151 or we go from there straight to lie v ericson park........reindeer hxxp://www.coroflot.com/jmslinky/JS-Por ... -Images/32 i did like Rudolph, for the reindeer, but he wasn't there in time hxxp://www.coroflot.com/jmslinky/JS-Por ... -Images/29

since it mentions "yellow"  .........just use the yellow blocks in the image........

slappybuns wrote:: okay guys, i really believe this verse and image is for scandinavia..owl's head park on leif ericson's drive ...yep, was taking another look at Owl's Head Park the other day. This still seems a plausible location. It's 22 blocks (east steps) from one end of Narrows Ave at Shore Rd Park (90th St) to the other end at Owl's Head Park (68th St). (The Viking connection is confusing though...Leif Ericson looks tempting, but the Scandinavians are distinct from the Russians in the intro.) A dozen paintings share the clues Yet Fairy secrets Come in twos My general approach to this book at the moment is that clues to the locations are scattered throughout the verses and images, though you need a specific pair to tie it down. So for instance, I would think: "OK, we've got clues for Brooklyn, what image and verse could pinpoint a casque there?" "You need only decipher the clues in any pair to learn the location of a treasure casque." Yep, but gimmee a break - they're highly interconnected. A pair may contain sufficient clues, but not necessarily the only clues. Eg, Owl's Head Park railings: Image 6 (yeah, I just don't care  ;)) Owl, Head, Horse-on-a-stick

that's pretty kool about 22 blocks WhiteRabbit all of it 's confusing me ......but it does say (about the russians) the russian came from the east and emigrated west and it mentioned "rose up"  (the rose in image 1 ) , "emigrated west", and "across" (a cross? (mont royal), (crossover drive, GGP?), and wide "steppes" and far "marches" (parade ground?), fertile plains (flatbush?) and also, the line that goes to russia on the map on page 10, does go  through scandia......... anyway, it's  just another way to look at it all that yellow stuff makes ya wonder

The general shape of the park reminds me of the image 12 'Tiffany' cornerpiece. A V... There's a skate park, which would be great for whirring sounds except that it's too recent, so the layout's probably changed a bit. hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/pa ... pt_01.html OHP then. OHP now.

why do you think the line isn't finished between the wings?.....and the extra straight line under the oval........that all bothers me this article talks about the 69th point pier....."embarkation for the ferry to st. george on staten island" st. george! who slayed the dragon hxxp://mysummerwithmoses.tumblr.com/pos ... -head-park

Dunno, I think JJP put a lot of this stuff in just to annoy people.

that word embark............hehe..........."to get on board a vehicle for transportation.........lol "The Scandinavian East Coast Museum will be hosting its annual Viking Fest at Bliss/Owl’s head Park on 68th Street and Colonial Road from noon to 5:00. Featuring “The Norseman” a half size replica of a Viking ship, two re-enactment groups, fencing demonstrations, rides, Scandinavian food and crafts. Read more" this was Bliss's land.............couldn't bliss be rhapsodic ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yes they both are like ecstasy! what do you think WhiteRabbit!??? gotta go eat! bbl! hxxp://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/12/nyreg ... 29852.html " if you go to the parks and enter the gate located between the swing sets and the water fountains, you'll see a bulletin board with a photo of the the mansion that stood on the ground." hxxp://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories ... 1&id=35523 this one mentions 3 rd Connecticutt Vol unteers.... hxxp://www.usgennet.org/family/bliss/bios/ny/eli.htm

slappybuns wrote:: this was Bliss's land.............couldn't bliss be rhapsodic ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yes they both are like ecstasy! what do you think WhiteRabbit!??? I think it's brilliant! Sheer genius! Even suggested it myself.  ;)

ohhhhhhhhhh i'm just louder than you!  i honestly missed it when you said it! boogieman?  what do you think?

there is the "step" street between colonial road and ridge road that goes straight to owls head park. very last picture: hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... steps.html here's more on the 3rd volunteers: hxxp://www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=271184 athena (if that is who our image is of) is often pictured with an OWL on her shoulder okay, back to confusion...the russian passage mentioned steppes, marches, rose up (rebellion?): marches: the area on each side of a border between two regions or countries, especially between England and Wales makes ya think of the canada one..... or maybe, just "3rd" month, linking russian with verse.... happy valentine's day to everyone!!  i got some power tools!  i'm so happy!  but it's gonna take me away from the hunt quite a bit!

this site tells where the Rune with Tune on it is located..and if you look on google earth there is a big V (drive) at that location: east of 4th avenue hxxp://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SC ... /lief.html Tune is a synonym for rhapsody and from that you can get "saga"  or epic poem and jotunheim, is land of the giants, but also home of the frost giants and rock giants the waves in image 12 could be like the waves on the park sign, and of course now i am seeing a big reindeer in the waves could mention that 5th avenue could be the V, but i think it would be behind the rock, and i'm hoping it's right there on one side of the v drive..... are you listening boogieman?

or...more linking the verse to Russia wide ------broadway? steppes--------plains, plain (simple?) (grand steps) far marches------------march, 3rd month, boundary? abandoned-----------left rose up---------awakened?  (get up in the ) morningside park?  cliffs at the park? rebellion? and followed black sea shore...(inland sea) the pond at morningside? over to riverside park? ummm morningside park also has that seligman (bear and faun) statue,  (image 9?) with the cloven hoof hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/mornin ... ights/6495 hxxp://www.zyxwvvwxyz.com/wordpress/200 ... side-park/ hxxp://wikimapia.org/13890364/Carl-Schurz-Memorial dedicated:      May 1913 " While you’re at Morningside Park, visit the charming Bear and Faun Fountain (114th St. and Morningside Ave., at foot of the stairway) and the statue of Lafayette meeting Washington (intersection of 114th St., Manhattan Avenue and Morningside Avenue). Nearby Columbia University (entrance at 116th St. and Broadway) has a number of representational sculptures, among them Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Rodin’s Thinker, the Great God Pan, Alma Mater (by Daniel Chester French) and the Marteleur." thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton, alma mater pan is playing a flute.... another goat leg and the carl shurz monument , who commanded 3rd division, 11th company or something like that hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/mornin ... ghts/11963 grand staircase..steps?: hxxp://crackertracker.blogspot.com/2010 ... ument.html they described shurz monument with an excedra........etcetera?....or more? hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/34639903@N03/3538236009 carl shurz......kindergardians, and mugwumps....and wisconsin and new york.........  and new orleans, i think,  hmmmm he and his wife started the first kindergartens, and he was a mugwump of course the other side of broaway goes to carl shurz park, and over into brooklyn.........i think

hxxp://ephemeralnewyork.files.wordpress ... plaque.jpg carrere grand stairs at riverside....looked like color of the clock to me "the plain of claremont playground" hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/rivers ... ights/6392 steppes, plain, simple? this is a "giant rock", dates from 1911 hxxp://www.michaelminn.net/newyork/park ... _memorial/

slappybuns wrote:: could mention that 5th avenue could be the V, but i think it would be behind the rock, and i'm hoping it's right there on one side of the v drive..... are you listening boogieman? did you say something Slappy? just kidding.  trying to catch up. Lots to read and digest here.

i'm sorry boogieman,  just can't seem to find that "thing" that will make it click

cant remember anymore,prospect park and,why did we move away from it found this you couldnt get any more rhapsodic,5 composers,in a small area boogie hope you have kids that like adventure, in brooklyn ny,seems your spring, summer like your going to be busy there In rhapsodic man's soil prospect park hxxp://newyorkcitystatues.com/prospect-park/ interactive_map,chose monumebts only hxxp://www.prospectpark.org/visit/inter ... _grove#map Concert Grove hxxp://www.prospectpark.org/visit/places/concert Places to Go hxxp://www.prospectpark.org/visit/places videos hxxp://www.prospectpark.org/about/videos

lol, cw, we're gonna make him work for it i've always liked prospect park because of olmsted, and i believe 22nd street was up there..we just have to convince them

I like the tree by JPJ Park across from Jackson Ct., but I have a hard time envisioning Byron Preiss digging  so near to the residential buildings... so I kept looking around the area. The strip of parkland along the shore (West of Belt Parkway) gives a more secluded place for BP to dig unseen...There is a parking area close to the possible tree...easy enough for BP to drive there with his shovel in the trunk. The "arm" that extends over the slender path can be the overpass which extends over the Belt Pkwy... (A belt can be a slender strip or band) and the Parkway can be a path . ..a slender path. The sidewalk splits into a "v"...from which you can walk in an East direction to a very familiarly-shaped tree. From there. you can see a nearby sign for Ft. Hamilton...and can also gaze North to see Liberty (Bedloe's) Island...all in the shadow of the grey giant (Verrazano Bridge).

Here's a thought... Does the part of the verse that says : The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. mean that we have to see a sign with that man's name on it...or does it mean that "him of Hard word" was famous and just lived in Brooklyn using this only as a confirmer? Woodrow Wilson ( Woody ) Guthrie (hard word) lived in Coney Island, Brooklyn...(where his son Arlo was born.) In fact, he died in Brooklyn in 1967...when BP would have been a teenager. He recorded three volumes of songs "Songs to Grow On"...? or it could be three biographies.

Woody only made one recording: Dust Bowl Ballads. He made it in 1940. Anything else recorded with his voice was made after his death in 1967 and there were far more than 3..

Shecrab, I am not really convinced of the reference to Woody Guthrie as "him of Hard word"...I'm just trying to determine if we are looking for a specific visual confirmer...like a sign...or a general area clue.. like Brooklyn. The sign for Ft. Hamilton is mentioned just before this in the verse, so it may be that the next line of the verse would be for another sign, like Jackson Ct.... Stone wall. I see three trees of interest in this area The tree in JPJ Park, by Jackson Ct.... The tree in Shore Rd. Park at about 73rd St. that is more secluded.... And the tree along Belt Parkway...in the shadow of the Verrazano Bridge.

i don't see why BP wouldn't have used robert moses for Moses him of hard word in 3 vols.-----------well, not sure if after he broke the 1st two stone tablets, did he just make one more tablet? 'cause i'm sure new yorkers still speak of robert moses hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses

animal painter wrote:: If we want to "see" the reference of "Him of Hard word" at the same time we are seeing the "nearby sign of Indies native"...could it be the sign over the Belt Prkwy for Kennedy Airport?  It is visible at the same time as the Ft Hamilton sign over the Pkwy when you are standing in the park along the shore. Kennedy made an oft-quoted speech at Rice University on September 12, 1962, in which he said: "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard ."

animal painter wrote:: The same criteria are met with the John Paul Jones tree from which both Ft Hamilton and (Stonewall) Jackson Ct. street signs may be seen. On the "plus" side: The tree does resemble the tree in the folds very much. On the "minus" side: The tree would not lend itself well to digging unseen & You cannot see the Isle of B...or even the water from there.

hxxp://mapandcounters.blogspot.com/2010 ... lumes.html "Lee's Lieutenants" (3 volumes) // If Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson had not been mortally wounded by his own pickets at the battle of Chancellorsville in May 1863, the dynamic and aggressive General Jackson, “Lee’s strong right arm” — and not the cautious Lt. General Richard Ewell — would have commanded the corps on the left wing of Lee’s army at Gettysburg on 1 July, 1863 .// Although the sign nearby speaks of Hamilton, the natives still speak of Stonewall in 3 volumes. You can see Fort Hamilton from Jackson Ct.  About 50-75 yards away. Authors Charles Schibner and sons are from NY.  (natives of NY)  But Douglas Southall Freeman is from Virginia.

Boogie, As long as "natives" are people born in America...it could be enough. As long as Americans...or New Yorkers. (authors, readers or publishers).. have a connection to 3 books or volumes, it could be enough. BP wanted to make a reference to something in the immediate area...without handing it to us on a platter! The specific number of 3 volumes of Lee's Lieutenants is good. Being able to get a look at the local trees without leaves would help to identify them more easily. AP

ugh...I am SO against digging near a tree.

Boogie, The "simple roots" sound like grass. A botanical definition says that carrots are considered simple roots (like a tap root). The 22 steps from the branch of the v will probably make you stop on grass... or a  dirt bed. (Queen Anne's Lace is a simple root...wild flower...related to the carrot.) A metal detector or a pointed metal rod may be essential to finding this casque... since BP gave no specific marker. AP

There ought to be some way to identify the spot. I reckon we just haven't found it yet.

that's interesting that you mentioned "carrots" as simple roots, somewhere in the fair folks (devil dogs (russian), marines, junk food) it said "and help is as close as your nearest carrot". which i took to mean market, fruit stand, something like that..........or the diamond district (carat) or walt whitman, leaves of grass  ;D whitman helped get ft. greene park and he was editor of the eagle paper led zeppelin......lead, hard word john paul jones .......navy robert plant. .........led zeppelin, lol "nearby" can mean "hard" also........near at hand, across the street, under your nose...abutting, vicinity

(From the preface: "yellow hair like Whitemen". Whitemen/Whitman? Liberty's hair is framed in yellow.)

sweet! whiterabbit........i do like the shape of cadman plaza as the shape of the long belt loop in the image worthy is on the dover monument...."worth" being from "the same worth as the alven's treasure stone" and the word "comradeship"  makes me think of russia hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Marker.asp?Marker=38784 i know we found a "22" around here, will search again, but what if the flagpole is 22 feet from the ground? here's the "22" hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1994476660/ here's the flagpole..... hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/2011956877/

I think we will find our solution here in  Electrogravitics.

animal painter wrote:: A metal detector or a pointed metal rod may be essential to finding this casque... since BP gave no specific marker. AP a metal detector won't find the  casque, not enough metal, the small piece in the key would be masked by soil mineralization unless you were within 6 inches or so. Im sure he considered the fact that most places he buried the casques are regularly searched by hobbiests with metal detectors.. I tried to use a pointed rod in golden gate park, but the sandy soil compacts into a solid mass and stops the rod after about 8 inches. Im sure one could hammer it in but that kind of defeats the purpose...

Malted, Sand may be more difficult to search, but a soil probe can go down over 3 feet in dirt...even clay. A metal detector has been successful in finding nails and pop-top rings in Milwaukee soil at over 2 feet down. AP

After Eggbert found his casque, I created a casque dummy based on what he found using a plexiglas box an unfiired bisque  jewelry box and a key wrapped in dried clay. in sand I could detect it down to 6 inches using my whites coinmaster 3000 metal detector. I tried it in various other soil types. and could not sense it unless it was less than that. Which makes sense because if it registered on a metal detector, it would have been dug up long ago. parks are constantly scoured by metal detecting hobbiests. who dig up the slightest indicator. a probe might help but a metal detector wont. your best bet will be a shovel.

Cormac wrote:: I think we will find our solution here in  Electrogravitics. Hey Cormac, long time no see. Glad you're still around, even if your posts are slightly gnomic...

If you google  Electrogravitics  Wiki Some, such as Byron Preiss, considered electrogravitics development to be "much ado about nothing, started by a bunch of engineers who didn't know enough physics". Preiss stated that electrogravitics, like exobiology, is "a science without a single specimen for study".[3] 3. ^ Byron Preiss (1985). The Planets. Bantam Books. p. 27. So we have Byron Preiss discussing Physics... and I've already presented a person with a very logical link to Physics, The Russian image in the picture, him of Hard word in 3 Vols., a prominent literary figure that is very easily referenced, AND though he's Russian born he grew up in the Prospect Park area. Understanding Physics: Volume 1: Motion, Sound, and Heat Understanding Physics: Volume 2: Light, Magnetism and Electricity Understanding Physics: Volume 3: Electron, Proton, and Neutron for "him of Hard word in 3 Vols." I give you (again)...    Isaac Asimov

I looked back... this must be the answer.... I got hooked on Prospect park on July 13 (2009). My wife's birthday, which is also a combination of my birth month and lucky number. Divine inspiration I tell ya!!!

it's great to have you back cormac! was thinking more of The Foundation Trilogy "Asimov's father sold his third candy store and bought his fourth, at 174 Windsor Place, in the Park Slope section of Brooklyn, and the family moved to a house across the street." i liked the candy store because of the devil dogs (junk food or marines) i can't find any markers to asimov.......'cept i think there is a picture maybe at ellis island..not sure but going straight from his store on 10th to prospect park you hit, harmony playground and the bandshell

boogieman,  when the ground gets warm don't forget about Leif Ericson Park with Tune, Norway, okay?   (lei v ) besides john paul jones, immigration song, III album all these words mean TUNE- --- song, bliss, harmony , content , plus friendship (comradeship(on the monument ), peace, symphony, concert, unity and we have owl's head park, (bliss), and harmony playground (prospect park) and concert grove p. 23- "So long as the Native Peoples would live in harmony with Nature, the " Shining Ones From Over The Big Sea Water" (as they were called) were content to live in harmony with them. ........saluting the flag, national anthem "shining ones" are depicted as  the fair folks (spirit?), or gods........ gods of the sea.........the navy? okay, after posting all that.........i keep thinking of the song "America, My country tis of thee and [b] O Beautiful..)[/b]".........and the song " Star-Spangled Banner and singing sea to shining sea, fruited plain , dawn's early light (sunset park)........yellow hair s treaming (gallantly streaming).......whose broad stripes (broad boats)........rockets red glare ( gaze north)  or look up (flagpole),  toward the isle of b.....brooklyn... the flagpole at john paul jones park hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/johnpa ... uments/824 and the dover patrol has " worth y" and comradeship , and most remembered for the Zeebrugge Raid on April 22 still would make more sense for this to go with the dutch image, because the dover straits are right there by the netherlands spangle: Definition: shimmer  (shining.......),(beady?) Synonyms: adorn, coruscate, decorate, flash, gleam, glimmer, glisten, glitter, ornament, sequin, sparkle, sprinkle, star, trim, twinkle Definition: shimmer, flicker Synonyms: beam, bedazzle, blaze, blink, coruscate, dazzle, flame, flare, glance, glare, gleam, glimmer, glint, glisten, glitter, glow, incandesce, light, phosphoresce, radiate, reflect, scintillate, shine, shoot out, spangle, spark, sparkle, twinkle strange that spangle means glare, which could mean gaze. north.... look up toward the stars and stripes..... keep all this in mind okay boogieman? one more word for song: hymns

or of course the netherlands flagpole in battery park hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... ights/8094 "consider a group of those  frugal (financial district) lowlands dwarves, the Alven, hovering (hanging, floating over (flag)), invisible (spirit) and observing (gazing?  discovering? surveying?) in economic agony ( the sale of manhattan) while their old friends the canarsie tribe traded manhattan for a handful of trinkets! 22 hxxp://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/N9 ... HJUEQq7WjA it mentions the "dutch merchant empire".........the west india company, and "the creation"..........discovery? there is a jewish flagpole by peter miniut plaza emma lazarus was jewish.... hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... ghts/13319 hxxp://infotrue.com/tourjewish.html and also........the guy with "the monitor" (battery park, john ericsson?)...........monitor could mean gaze or look at

guys, just what "if"......this verse goes with the french picture (image 7) grey giant could be "Jackson (square)... (you know, the war, blue and gray uniforms, and jackson wore gray, for the south) the ferries are there or the streetcars (whirring) the picture has a " V " right in front of the jewel  (preser V ation) and rhapsodic man could be l ouis armstrong (park) if only the st. charles quote wasn't in the other verse

okay, one more thing on "harmony".........the peace bridge you always hear peace and harmony together and also another peace symbol is the "V", (you know, with the fingers making a V)

I'm working on becoming more dogmatic and inflexible in my approach to this puzzle. I'm still pinning my colours to the OHP mast. The kind of questions that tax me are: Is that the skate park (too new) in the top right? Has it made any other incursions in the park? What are the other features; eg, the thing to the right of that V below it? Where are those horse heads? Am I going to find a stereogram in Image 12 before I go blind looking for it?

The natives still speak Of him of Hard word One possibility for him of hard word is Ralph Waldo Emerson. "Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again." I was wondering if the natives might be the Canarsie. This is a Brooklyn district bordered by Ralph Ave., and a railway line featuring "intricate mosaic tilework" that reminded me of image 12. hxxp://www.nycsubway.org/lines/canarsie.html Liberty has been compared to Athena, whose symbol was an owl. (Here's a couple at OHP.)

lol!  that was one of my main theories!  with the subway tiles and railroads and the colors in the image!! i like the reference of liberty and the owl..

I'd forgotten that. Well, it all points irresistibly to the Canarsie at OHP. I'm coming round to your "Gowanus Express" idea as well, since this appears on a sign by the park. (Turn left at the top of Narrows Ave.) This is my fave OHP owl. In the shadow of the great grey . Image 12 has hoop shapes all over it.

i've sorted been leaning toward columbus park and cadman plaza lately, with henry ward beecher being "him of hard word" and toward isle b, being the subway or " to ward beecher" the shape of the belt loop in her robe looks like cadman plaza to me or maybe the shape on his cloak hxxp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... rd_Beecher but seems there was something in the book that makes me think italian (whereas columbus park would fit), something about "stowed" in the boat (harriet beecher stowe, (some relative of henry ward beecher)  and peeping toms, and she wrote Uncle Tom's cabin................. hmmm, edward everett hale married a Beecher, and he's in boston, and he has a cane!  and he is in boston public garden and he was a preacher...(hard word)! hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/29661629@N00/372940474 (guess this should all be on the image 11 thread , i always liked that sailors and soldiers monument that had longfellow on it)

i've sorted been leaning toward columbus park and cadman plaza lately, with henry ward beecher being "him of hard word" and toward isle b, being the subway or " to ward beecher" the shape of the belt loop in her robe looks like cadman plaza to me or maybe the shape on his cloak hxxp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... rd_Beecher but seems there was something in the book that makes me think italian (whereas columbus park would fit), something about "stowed" in the boat (harriet beecher stowe, (some relative of henry ward beecher)  and peeping toms, and she wrote Uncle Tom's cabin................. hmmm, edward everett hale married a Beecher, and he's in boston, and he has a cane!  and he is in boston public garden and he was a preacher...(hard word)! hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/29661629@N00/372940474 (guess this should all be on the image 11 thread , i always liked that sailors and soldiers monument that had longfellow on it)

V for vector? Has this verse been narrowed or pinned down at all? So, is Hard words in 3 vol. at all resolved?  Can we use the physics/engineering angle in a specific way? I haven't read this thread yet...just jumping over here looking for any possible connection to P3 and the Confessions of St. Augustine.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I previously suggested Fort Hamilton High School as a shape in this image. I was just taking another look at it and I still like this, so I thought I'd have another go at trying to convince y'all. View opposite: Aerial view: Here's that same "V" seen from the coast road: Note the road sign (circled above): It's generally reckoned to go with Image 12, New York. I see it something like this: In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path Involves the Statue of Liberty, the Verrazano Bridge, the Narrows, Narrows Ave, Belt Parkway in some combination. Take your pick about which is which. In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound Best guess so far is cars and helicopters. Slightly banal though. Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The "Indies Native" is reckoned to be Hamilton , and the sign possibly the one at Brooklyn's Fort Hamilton High. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Dunno, possibly Webster. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Possibly a V-shaped pathway beside Fort Hamilton High, Gershwin being the "Rhapsodic Man". Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. Bedloe's, an old name for Liberty Island, which you can see north of this point.

Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native This makes me think of the Arawak Indians of the West Indies or the Carib people. Arawak sounds like "Air Walk" and so I imagine this could be signage for some kind of air travel: airport, airlift, high bridge, or tram.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Best guess so far is cars and helicopters. Slightly banal though. Someone once suggested it might be the whirring sound of fishing reels.

bigmattyh wrote:: Someone once suggested it might be the whirring sound of fishing reels. Are you suggesting the reels of a tram might be like fishing reels? Okay, I was just researching a bit and discovered I had the wrong idea for a 'tram', which is just a railway trolley type of system.  I'm thinking of those cars suspended by wires used to bridge gaps...what are those called?

erexere wrote:: Are you suggesting the reels of a tram might be like fishing reels? I'm thinking of literal, actual fishing reels, if you can believe it.  Which make whirring sounds. Like these.

erexere wrote:: Okay, I was just researching a bit and discovered I had the wrong idea for a 'tram', which is just a railway trolley type of system.  I'm thinking of those cars suspended by wires used to bridge gaps...what are those called? Gondolas

Incidentally, re: the cars, they might tie in with the Chrysler building. BP also played with making one thing look like another in Imagine A Day . "In another painting, children walk along a picket fence, which almost imperceptibly turns into a city skyline that features the Chrysler Building." Chrysler may also connect with Chrysanthemum, the image 12 flower (from Chrysos, gold).

Unknown: Yampah Hot Springs vapor caves are historic underground steam baths. They are over 100 years old and were used by the Ute Indians as a source of rejuvenation and healing. Today, the vapor caves consist of three adjoining underground rock chambers. Cave temperatures average 110 to 112 °F (43 to 44 °C). The hot springs and mineral caves are prime attractions to tourists and were a main reason for the settlement of Glenwood Springs. As such, there is an adjoining spa and salon. The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Could 'Hard' be a word for water with a high mineral content aka Hard water? The 3 Vols. or Volumes could be a reference to just any volume or 3 dimensional encapsulation such as the 3 adjoined underground rock chambers. Wikipedia: Basically a glowing blue/green circle with steam rising off of it.

Isle of Basalt?  A volcanic peak formation is easily an isle if enough water is introduced around the base... I'm beginning to consider the Tule Lake / Lower Klamath Basin area which is very active in its Native Indian history and also an area where water irrigation and reclamation took place in order to support a large influx of new inhabitants (immigration?).  It was also a Japanese American Intermnent camp.

I wonder if the whirring is the sound of the Captain Jacks Stronghold Substation, part of the Path 66 power cable network.  I see it started in the 70's but I don't know how infrastructure was handled or added after 1980.  The Native Modocs were defeated by a 1000 man unit after the fatal shooting of General Canby. I have another idea about whirring and rhapsodic pertaining to an industrial sewing facility.  In 1979 the Tulegoose Pillow and Comforter company started up in the Tule Lake area.  Maybe that is too newly established.

Going back to the Camp Amache site near Granada, CO, I thought I'd apply the Sun shadow idea Maltedfalcon gave me. Just deciding what date to apply to the 6 o'clock reference I first considered Pearl Harbor but then I went with Summer Solstice in 1980 and discovered that the angle of the Sun at 6pm is about 24 degrees elevation and 282 degrees azimuth.  The interesting thing about this is that a shadow will be cast Eastward and an object of height X will be about twice-X in length.  This rouses attention to the line Take twice as many east steps as the hour .  The memorial stone that I happen to think reminds me of the shape of the woman's neck line and overall robe length from top to bottom is about 6 feet tall...so 12 steps east?

This is an interesting find, again looking at Granada, CO.  There is a map engraved on a wood plank that shows how the houses were arranged in lettered blocks.  Comparing that with an aerial and extrapolating out to the memorial stone where I just based some sun shadow observations actually fits perfectly with the last two lines of verse: Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. The red arrow is pointing north, notice the B-Block, is this the B-Aisle?

erexere wrote:: This is an interesting find, again looking at Granada, CO.  There is a map engraved on a wood plank that shows how the houses were arranged in lettered blocks.  Comparing that with an aerial and extrapolating out to the memorial stone where I just based some sun shadow observations actually fits perfectly with the last two lines of verse: Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. The red arrow is pointing north, notice the B-Block, is this the B-Aisle? Just to be clear, I did manipulate the image to add three additional blocks "D C B" to show that extrapolating and using the E F G H that's already there to discover that the "B" aisle isn't any stretch of the imagination, it simply maps out.  I kind of like this area, but it really does bother me that it's far from any port area.  The area has everything to do with immigration however, so it has it's considerations. I've been hot onto looking up Solar Charts and placing shadow positions lately.  I just worked with this image as a 6pm on the Summer Solstice.  Both of these are assumptions only and based on the line in verse "In Summer" and the 6pm vs 6am is still open for discussion.  The many moons in the sky, what twelve or so, really put this at a twilight or sunrise time.  I'll next look at the 6am shadow and see where that leads.  I don't know if either am or pm work for the Pearl Harbor date as far as usable Sun goes.

San Francisco's Japanese community was moved into temporary housing at Tanforan Racetrack.

I have to scrap my ideas on this verse.  I think I've found a good candidate for the grey giant and slender path, the Le Phare du Cosmos statue in St. Helen's.  It is within view of the Bioshpere and the Habitat 67 and within hearing distance of the race way where cars abound and whirr.

Well, I'm officially scrubbing the Japanese Intermnent theory.  Ain't nothing to do with fair folk I guess...actually I'm restructuring my approach based on maltedfalcon's encouraging posts. Now, I feel like I have evidence of a picture path, now to apply the verse. Mim looking at a chunk of granite that has a speech from Harding in his address to the Canadians. The monument was dedicated by Kiwanis, an obscure organization that I only heard of when I got an award in 1986 from John Adams Highschool in NY.  The name Kiwanis is based on a Native American etymology.  Harding's State of the Union speech was published in a 3 vol. collection of presidential speeches from 1790-1966.

The three forgotten giant checker boards that use galvanized pipe style checker pieces has an appealing quality considering a pipe might be thought of as a root in the soil.  Do those look like "giant grey" tiles? As it was 30 years ago, it wouldn't know if those exact pieces were getting any action, but the quote from the article (see image9 thread) made it sound like they had been requested sometime around 27 years ago.  (sounds like a strange number to make up...I wonder if there is a sign out sheet for the key to the closet that shows the date last checked out like a library book...).

Rethinking as I jump around randomly...can industrial pipes channeling water in the ground be analogous to a plant's roots?

id say no. especially if they werent buried.

In the shadow Of the grey giant A possibly elegant interpretation might be the fact that the Amphitheater in Stanley Park is called the Marion Malkin Memorial Bowl after the wife of W.H. Malkin who was Mayor in 1929 at the time when Point Grey was absorbed into Vancouver jurisdiction.  The title of Mayor means "greater, great, or superior".  I wonder if that could be taken to mean "giant" which is slightly different, but "greater" than small, much greater.  The "grey giant" then makes use of a word for color as a place name, similar to how he uses "white" as a reference to a map in Roanoke.  I feel like this is a compelling, simple, and elegant fit.  Not obscure at all in terms of "what is this giant theater called: Malkin, eh?" "who was Malkin:  Mayor in the late 20's, eh?"  "what's that, Point Grey became part of Vancouver, eh, that's cool...hmm...Grey...Great...Giant...Mayor...Great..ah, grey giant".

erexere wrote:: The three forgotten giant checker boards that use galvanized pipe style checker pieces has an appealing quality considering a pipe might be thought of as a root in the soil.  Do those look like "giant grey" tiles? As it was 30 years ago, it wouldn't know if those exact pieces were getting any action, but the quote from the article (see image9 thread) made it sound like they had been requested sometime around 27 years ago.  (sounds like a strange number to make up...I wonder if there is a sign out sheet for the key to the closet that shows the date last checked out like a library book...). I want to reiterate this checker board discovery as applied to the line "look down and see simple roots". Checkers is considered simple compared to chess which uses the same basic board.  This giant ground inlay checker board includes checker playing pieces.  30 years ago was practically the last time someone used those actual pieces! What kind of roots are we seeing when we look down? We see squares...8 x 8  = 64.  The squareROOT of 64 is 8. The checker patterns in image 9 and the contemplative pose of the renaissance character really persuades me to consider this "thinking at the board" approach.

Unknown: I want to reiterate this checker board discovery as applied to the line "look down and see simple roots". The rest of the verse is "In rhapsodic man's soil" Roots in soil ---if he meant checkers or chess by that I will EAT THIS BOOK.

This statue greeting those who enter the park area containing the checkerboard looks rhapsodic to me, hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/elsbro/2375094245/

erexere wrote:: This giant ground inlay checker board includes checker playing pieces.  30 years ago was practically the last time someone used those actual pieces! Please take your seats students. 2012-30=1982 If I remember correctly, I DID NOT dress that way in high school

I should've said the pic of those pieces in action was from a much older date.  Looks around late 1920's. The article I read said the last time a person checked the pieces out from the park storage was 27 years ago.  Add a few more years to account for the date of the article.  It's conceivable that BP actually saw those pieces being used. No, I'm not a teacher.  I'm just a guy with a little ladder. Edit-  btw, i want to put emphasis on the dual nature of the word choice of 'simple roots'.  I've just mentioned the type off root that is square as applied to the simple game of checkers.  The second understanding that relates well is that these particular pieces were made out of repurposed irrigation pipe, which serves the same function as actual plant roots which transport water through the ground.  This is either a very big coincidence or BP was really proud of this little connection..."simple roots"...ah, you kidder Shecrab, you seem to have a flair for the rhapsodic as well.  Is it at all interesting to you that the etymology of the word 'mayor' means "greater or superior" which is reasonably synonomous with the word 'giant' and the coincidental fact that the amphitheater of this park, Malkin, is the name of the Mayor of 1920's Grey Point?  It serves as a logical associaion to "grey giant".  The Malkn Theater is a sizable structure and sunlight does shine upon it, therefore it can cast a shadow.  Does it grab your attention that the Harding Memorial is right next to this building?

Isle of B. North of Stanley Park is the Burrard Inlet, named after an Admiral. Of the Royal Navy.  He is from the South East part of England.  I'm not that familiar with the geography of England, but I know the Isle of Wight is in southeast England.  I'm just pputting this out there.  Its not the slckest reasoning, but if Burrard was actually born or represented the Isle of Wight then we would have a consistent logic to see Burrard Inlet as "Burrard of the Isle (of Wight) Inlet".  I'll have to dig more for these facts.

If only BP had written "Look down and see simple rooks..."

Ah, southeast England. Rooks. Now you're talking my language. Filmed this just the other day. hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0YagcRq1G0

Nice work WR. I just finished looking over the map of England.  I see the Isle of Wight is right outside the windows of Lymington where Burrard was buried.  I am only assuming he was born, raised, or otherwise associated with that area along the coast of the Isle.  It still feels like a stretch, but it seems good enough to support the Isle of B[urrard] notion, although there is no such place, the relational elements play out. One other thing to note is that this particular Burrard was at the Siege of Charleston in 1780.

Mentioning "gray giant" and "simple roots" in the same sentence only makes me think of "Just for Men" hair products. (sorry, i have nothing to contribute, but i am reading along in silence, usually)

catherwood wrote:: Mentioning "gray giant" and "simple roots" in the same sentence only makes me think of "Just for Men" hair products. (sorry, i have nothing to contribute, but i am reading along in silence, usually) Does she or doesn't she?

Unknown: Shecrab, you seem to have a flair for the rhapsodic as well.  Is it at all interesting to you that the etymology of the word 'mayor' means "greater or superior" which is reasonably synonomous with the word 'giant' and the coincidental fact that the amphitheater of this park, Malkin, is the name of the Mayor of 1920's Grey Point?  It serves as a logical associaion to "grey giant".  The Malkn Theater is a sizable structure and sunlight does shine upon it, therefore it can cast a shadow.  Does it grab your attention that the Harding Memorial is right next to this building? No.

catherwood wrote:: (sorry, i have nothing to contribute, but i am reading along in silence, usually) (Hey, long time no see catherwood! I think the last time was back on Schatzsuche...)

shecrab wrote:: No. Shecrab, i was hoping for the usual stalwart and robust response.  If assuming this can be a meaningful dialogue, would anyone else like to weigh in on whether or not the word Mayor is a big or small stretch from BP's word choice of 'giant'?    Im sttill chewing on the idea, which is why I ask.  I dont wish to be too loose in my iinterpretation of synonym.

I think it's a pretty big stretch. But occasional stretching can be healthy.

The "usual stalwart and robust response?" No. Sorry. I don't buy this layered wordplay. I don't believe these puzzles have that much distance between the words and the conclusions. And I don't believe this verse goes with this location.

sure, I think it borders on ludicrous.

Okay, thanks.  I was hoping this would fall under the non wordplay element.  Etymology is just about the origin of meaning.  One word that means "greater" vs another word that also means "greater".  Whether or not BP would choose words carefully in this way is all I'm toying with.

I wonder if there are any Sequoiadendron Giganteum or "Giant Sequoia" trees in the area.  Interestingly the only other building next to the Harding Monument is called the Sequoia Grill.  I'd like to know how long that business has been in operation, then we would have an actual 'giant' reference.  Still not sure what would be grey about it...need to see a 1980s picture. There is this too, hxxp://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/7548196 That's a really old tree.  Is the word 'grey' acceptable as meaning 'very vey old' or is that ludicrous or too Gandalf?

Kato wrote:: My conclusions are these: Maybe the "Isle of B" is not an island at all, but something else, another double entendre or clever play on words describing another object near JPJ park. Over 3 years ago, Kato listed many islands around New York City, some of them starting with "B," and concluded: But BP could have been referring to an actual island. One of those mentioned by Kato was North Brother island . This island has a couple of things going for it in its name alone. It begins with "B" and has "North" in its name, so " Or gaze north / Toward the isle of B " would certainly fit. In addition, there is land to its south, so one could literally gaze north at it, and in fact there is land all around it, so one could gaze "north" at it from all directions. This island is "In the shadow / Of the grey giant" in that it is right there by NYC, but figuratively in its shadow. George Gershwin wrote Rhapsody in Blue and was born in Brooklyn. My point: If one were looking at a map of New York City and focused on Queens, one could look "down" (south) and see Brooklyn, or "rhapsodic man's soil." They could look north and see North B rother Island. Forgive me if this has been brought up before. A forum search yielded only Kato's message from 2008.

Pairing with image 9, I failed to work up a sensible Isle of B solution when I thought it was good enough to say there was an Isle from which looking north you could see land from where Burrard came, which was looking at the mainland of England from the Isle of Wight.  That was to justify the Burrard Inlet.  I shouldve said Isle = Aisle and that is the difference between a simple island and a simple passage.  Burrard Inlet is a waterway passage between Vancouver and North Vancouver at the area North of Stanley Park.

so you are saying isle of B is possibly a misdirection of two levels. 1 B is abbreviated, so we are not sure which B he means. 2 Aisle is purposely misspelled Isle to doubly throw us off. This is possible, Did BP do this in any of the other Verses?

maltedfalcon wrote:: so you are saying isle of B is possibly a misdirection of two levels. 1 B is abbreviated, so we are not sure which B he means. 2 Aisle is purposely misspelled Isle to doubly throw us off. This is possible, Did BP do this in any of the other Verses? Correct.  Obviously there is that variant in the Chicago find, but I only suspect he uses homophonic methods...sorry I have no proven examples to offer.

I wonder if a good lead might be to consider the "Hard word" something about "Hard Alcohol".  Perhaps the choice of words "in 3 Vol." is to suggest the "Volstead Act". What think we?

Find the arm That extends over the slender path followed by Take twice as many steps as the hour Has me considering the cannon attraction in Stanley Park.  It's called the " 9 o'clock Gun ".  Since an alternate meaning for arm could also be a gun I wonder if this makes a good fit.  It's having the name of an hour might help in this interpretation eventually leading us to take 18 steps or more . What is a slender path?  A trail?  Something with no fat?  The path or way to having no fat might be a riddle representing death, which after much time is a natural path towards becoming a skeleton.  The 9 o'clock Gun fires daily at 9pm in a direction over or past the Deadman's Island. Added (10/12/12):  I think slender path could very well mean an actual foot path that contains a view of something "slender" and in this case totem poles are slender.  When describing someone as "skinny", often is the comparison made that they are "skinny as a pole".  Something which has a corroborative element to this slender idea is the Brockton Point light house sitting right next to the Totem pole area in Stanley Park.  It was named after Francis Brockton of the HMS Plumper.  I like the implied contrast of slender/plumper.

In the shadow Of the grey giant With a focus on Canada, "grey" is could be a reference to Grey Point which is directly north of Stanley Park in Vancouver.  This would follow the same logic used in Cleveland where the casque was below two countries.  If "below" is taken to mean "south of" then "north of" implies "above".  Being in somethings shadow is a good fit if Grey Point is "above" Stanley Park in that sense. An alternate idea uses the term grey as a Canadian Football League reference in that the trophy is called the Grey Cup after Lord Grey whom after Grey Point is named.

erexere wrote:: In the shadow Of the grey giant With a focus on Canada, "grey" is could be a reference to Grey Point which is directly north of Stanley Park in Vancouver.  This would follow the same logic used in Cleveland where the casque was below two countries.  If "below" is taken to mean "south of" then "north of" implies "above".   Being in somethings shadow is a good fit if Grey Point is "above" Stanley Park in that sense. An alternate idea uses the term grey as a Canadian Football League reference in that the trophy is called the Grey Cup after Lord Grey whom after Grey Point is named. Oops.  I had my geography wrong.  Point Grey is more of a south relationship to Stanley Park.  Perhaps I should adjust the first line of verse as relating to the first place to start on the image path.  Mitchell Island looks very close as a match to the hat shape in image 10.

Unknown: It was on the train, with its steely rhythms, its rattle-ty bang, that is so often so stimulating to a composer – I frequently hear music in the very heart of the noise... And there I suddenly heard, and even saw on paper – the complete construction of the Rhapsody, from beginning to end. No new themes came to me, but I worked on the thematic material already in my mind and tried to conceive the composition as a whole. I heard it as a sort of musical kaleidoscope of America, of our vast melting pot, of our unduplicated national pep, of our metropolitan madness. By the time I reached Boston I had a definite plot of the piece, as distinguished from its actual substance. I've been ignoring a possibly crucial idea that the "rhapsodic man" is anyone else but Gershwin.  I thought I'd sidestep the obvious choice in favor of a more root understanding of the word rhapsody, which is why I thought the enthusiastic expression with arms raised of the Lord Stanley statue in Vancouver might be it. In reevaluation I'm taking a moment to look more closely at the Gershwin idea.  According to his biography, Gershwin shared how the Rhapsody in Blue came to him, So it was "on the train, with it's steely rhythms."  Does this allow us to substitute "Railroad" for "Rhapsodic man"?  I consider this idea because it is consistent with a result I've gained from exploring the Lumberman's Arch in Stanley Park.  The plaque there explains the history of how a previous arch once stood in the park after being relocated from the intersection of streets Pender and Hamilton.  It turns out that the intersection of Pender and Hamilton is the west corner of Victory Square which is bound by P ender street and Highway 7 a.  This P and 7, including the normal map perspective of the intersection actually match the square with X icon in image 9.  It even matches with respect to Pender being a 4-lane two-way street and Hamilton being a narrow single-lane one-way street and that the X shape in it's orientation shows a thick line and thin line also corresponding to this observation. Now consider what significance this site has, if any, to anything to do with Gershwin or the Railroad.  The site of Victory Square is actually quite significant for being owned by the CPR, George Stephen's Railroad -remember, it's his home which has the LegEater lamp.  L.A. Hamilton drove the first survey stake in the north corner of Victory Square establishing the city boundary between the Grainville Townsite and the CPR Townsite and signified the terminus of the Montreal based Railway. That establishes the soil rights of the railroad, but of Gershwin I can only see that Victory Square and it's Cenotaph memorial with WW1 steel helmets which look just like the one worn by the Centuar was established in April of the year 1924, only a couple months after Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue was performed in February, 1924. I'm considering the line where you take twice as many steps as the hour from the middle of a branch of the v.  If we take "V" for victory, then we have a clear choice for using the Victory Square cenotaph as the marker.  It has 3 paths leading from it's center.  Two paths lead into the street bounding the northern sides but one path leads southwest into the park and just around 60ft up a small flight of steps there's a retaining wall with a tree and then a grassy hill.  I've been working with the idea that one piece of this puzzle involves the 9 o'clock Gun which actually aims in this direction from the eastern tip of Stanley Park.  I'll look into whether it actually aims directly at this site, that would be cool.  So if the name of that historical artifact is what we use to determine "the hour", then we are looking at twice 9, or 18 steps or more.  If a step is about 3 feet, then we're looking at 3x18= 54 feet.  I'm only estimating here, but 54ft is comparably close to 60ft.  I wonder if I'm finally piecing this together. This is a mind blowing thing to consider, but it first requires everyone to put aside the notion that the Legeater is the primary indicator of location.  I believe it has it's place in this solution, but it doesn't indicate location or proximity for the casque.  Granted, it is a good assumption based on the Cleveland and Chicago solves.  I think it's solely important for realizing the significance of the 1881 CP Railway.  The next step is picking up on the theme of "end to end" or "connecting the east to the west", that being Montreal to Vancouver.  The first train to perform the transcontinental task was the No.374, which is why it was chosen as the model for a miniature train established in Stanley Park.  I have a suspicion that it's very possible that the historical significance of the CPR in Vancouver might've resulted in a photograph or painting of the Mount Stephen Club being viewable somewhere like the miniature train station or in a Pavillion or museum space nearby.  This is similar to my experience when I stop by a pizza house or bagel shop on the west coast and see a wall sized photograph of New York City.  The Mount Stephen Club does look pretty sharp as a photograph, so I don't think it's out of the question. Some changes have been made to the pathways of this site, but I don't think it has interfered with the casque which might be at this location.  In my haste, I drew the contours of the main path curving in the wrong direction, but you can see an early photo to make the mental adjustment.  The yellow line represents about 18 or more steps.

**Will be making changes to this** Integrating the Image elements in bold, Hat is the shape of Mitchell Island south of Vancouver // Cambie Street northbound connects you to downtown Vancouver where it adjusts to northeast travel until you cross Pender and land on Highway 7A (Hastings St.) at the site of the Victory Square WWI cenotaph.  Go west, passing rail cars, marina, and northward view of Deadman's Island, then turn southwest for one block and then northeast on Pender St. to the entrance of Stanley park where you are greeted by the massive enthusiastic posture of the statue of Lord Stanley.  Circle Stanley Park and take in the sites.  The Harding memorial, the 9 o'clock Gun, Lumberman's Arch, the miniature train, the Hollow Tree, Siwash Rock, and the burial cairn of poet Pauline Johnson (looks more like the blob than anything I've seen yet). In the shadow Of the grey giant // The famous Hollow Tree of Stanley Park.  A western red cedar tree, said to be the oldest and biggest tree in the region. Find the arm that Extends over the slender path // The 9 O'clock Gun is an "arm", but this line fits the Lumberman's Arch best as it extends over a narrow path. In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound // Also along Hastings is a dense boat marina. Cars abound // Travelling W on Hastings in downtown Vancouver you pass a huge waterfront area with rail cars. Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native // (?) Look for a marker that speaks about the Natives of "XwayXway". The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. // The Harding Memorial with established by a Native American named organization, written in granite about the Harding speech.  A three volume set of books titled Presidential State of the Union Messages 1790-1966 contains President Harding's words.  The Harding Memorial is near the Pavillion just beyond the entrance. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more // Use the 9'oclock Gun as input to get 18 or more steps originating from the east, therefore it is west we walk.  (Is there a wind direction motif anywhere?) From the middle of one branch Of the v // Look down And see simple roots // The giant checker boards, there are three. In rhapsodic man's soil // Lord Stanley (His statue with raised arms in a rhapsodic pose of welcome at the entrance to Stanley Park). Or gaze north Toward the isle of B. // The Legend of Deadman's Island.  It was discovered originally as a Native American burial site where hundreds of red cedar boxes were lashed to the upper boughs of the trees below them the "fire-flower" (Poppy) would grow where the warriors fell.  The boxes were filled with these warrior's bones.  A common symbol for bones is an "X".  A box with an "X" in it seems like a connection to image 9.  The isle was off limits to the public during the time Preiss would've buried a casque, so it's an unlikely place for us to consider as a treasure ground.  This site is seen most easily in 1982 when gazing north from the corner of Hastings and Jarvis.  This is a good place to turn south for a block to land on Pender St. in order to continue on to Stanley Park. If the legeater is the equivalent of the CPR, and the blob is P.J.'s cairn and the flower is the Lumberman's Arch are smaller pieces of the art, then the largest parts, the hat, head, neck collar, hans, and checkers are the best candidates for the treasure ground.  I think the hands represent the Hollow Tree, but I've also cited the verse for doing that with the first line.  I think the most central element tends to be the correct answer (fence in Chicago, wall in Cleveland), which means the collar portion or checkerboards might be the most central, though I think the checker boards are kind of background.  I think the collar has a sketch line of a trail...

East steps...I missed that mental note putting ths together.  The steps I indicated aren't east.  That shoots the cenotaph idea down.  Drat.

erexere wrote:: East steps...I missed that mental note putting ths together.  The steps I indicated aren't east.  That shoots the cenotaph idea down.  Drat. If we were talking about wind, as in an east wind, then its a convention of originating from the east and blowing west.  Is this a pssible interpretation?  If Preiss wrote "take 10 steps east" that wouod surely mean in that direction, but to place the word east in fro nt of the noun, doesn't that change things?  So, are "east steps" actually westbound? That reminds me, "cars abound" may refer to a train as well, since railcars are a kind of car.

I have to consider the infinite possibilities of what could be meant by the "v" which is also something with branches.  The v itself is a letter which might be thought of as having two branches. Some ideas I'm leaning towards, 1) v is a Vancouver related object, like a statue of George Vancouver (I'm not to interested in this option since it's a lower case "v" and not a capital "V". 2) v is an actual V letter, like on a sign at a branching roadway.  There's a trail named Avision, where the lowercase v is clear. 3) v is a shape of an object at an intersection. 4) the variation with 180 degree rotation forming a simple arch /\.

After Hurricane Sandy, we may find it even more difficult to recognize landmarks in NY...

animal painter wrote:: After Hurricane Sandy, we may find it even more difficult to recognize landmarks in NY... True. But it also makes it easier to get away with traversing city parks with a shovel and a city-worker type reflective-orange jacket . Digging might not appear the be that extraordinary either. On a similar note, this makes it a good time to be looking for " me sweet stuffed animal type friend " too.

Can someone direct me to the email where Preiss said the treasure was not in Central Park? I have quite a few clues that point there or close to there.

boogieman wrote:: BP reponded three diffrent times about NY locations.  Nothing in Central Park, the Statue of Liberty (or Liberty Island), and this one on point, Ground Zero.  I assume that his ***not so*** came after the other two. Why wouldn't he just say ***get out of NY***?  He gave up Canada, Houston, and St Louis for us.  I think one has to believe here, with the history of his contacts, that his ambiguity surrounding NYC is about not handing anyone the shovel to dig.  Afterall, his office was located on 25th Street, Midtown Manhattan, and born and raised a Brooklynite.....Image12 has the Statue of Liberty, Two WTC, and the Verrazano Bridge.  You can tinker with the verses, but the image belongs to NY. Here you go, Rockhunter... ------------------------------------------------- From: To: Subject: Re: Sorry to bother you. Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 8:08 PM there is no treasure in central park

boogieman wrote:: He gave up Canada Unknown: From : Sent :  Monday, April 7, 2003 2:08 PM To :  [email protected] Subject :  Re: "The Secret" thanks! yes, there is a treasure in Canada. Unknown: Very impressive work esp since the book is 20 years old.  I think you deserve to  know that you are correct about st. Louid,but not correct about the location.thanks for all your excellent work. He did...? Do you have that one too AP...? If there's one in St Louis and one in Canada, something's gone badly wrong somewhere. *edit* Oh OK, found it. I'd forgotten about that one. ...and there's also... It's hard to see any of the other images except No. 9 pointing to either St Louis or Canada. But if we assume the St Louis remark was a cryptic hint about a different puzzle it kinda makes it difficult to believe anything he said. (It's also difficult to see how St Louis, if it's a reference to New Orleans, has anything to do with a casque in Lafayette Square.)

How about image11? If we assume what he said is true, and not some cruel joke on an already difficult hunt, then the only image that can possibly be St Louis is image 11. Its that or he made a mistake. Given Egberts description of him as an "absent minded professor", it could be possible.

you know, it must be explored that appreciation goes both ways.  Where Preiss worked hard creatively to present us with this challenge, the response he received was at first hopeful with Chicago, and then a numb sense of pride in 2004 when Egbert collected on Cleveland.  I believe he put his hunt to slumber long before 2004 and didn't feel it necessary to give anything up freely.  Perhaps Johann displayed the most exemplary work and so he gave him something to work with, but it should not be assumed he gave enough of an answer to confirm what part of an image or verse exactly determined the city of St. Louis is correct.  He doesn't do that at all.  We have so much expectation wrapped around our heads that it acts like a blindfold to the simple illusion that these casques are discretely proposed.  It seems more and more evident that they are all channelling eachother to some degree through a consistency and uniformity of Preiss' literary mind and JJP's artistic ability.  This is a situation not unlike Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  We aren't observing one casque wholly separate from another.  Even maltedfalcon admits that by expressing a logic of defining principles based on Chicago and Cleveland that says other casques must follow a discernible method. Think about it folks.  Listen to eachother.  Get your shovels ready.

I've looked at this a lot of ways, but this is the one that I think deserves a good look, What's going on here is much of what I've been working on for awhile, only now it's come together when I consider the basic meaning of a 'branch'.  When speaking of a road or a path as is most common and if not speaking about an actual tree with branches, we are typically working with the idea of something as a "main" and then at least one offshoot or "fork".  This is Pipeline Road and a triangular shaped area next to the parking lot near the Children's park and the Miniature train.  I see this amphitheater with the central checkerboard and two slightly offset boards turned at an angle.  It could be seen as a branching of checkerboards, the main and with two branching off to either side.  The line of verse "in the middle of one branch of the v" might be resolved as the exact center of one of these side boards.  The side that makes the most sense to me is on the north side.  The next issue is to consider the difference in "east steps" vs. "steps east".  I've recently taken the view that "east steps" are actually in the westward direction but stated as "coming from the east".  If this site is correct, then steps heading east wouldn't work since there's a wall side of the amphitheater structure obstructing travel after only a small number of steps.  I'm really leaning towards the 9 O'Clock Gun tourist attraction as the answer to the riddle of how many "steps as the hour" to consider.  Twice that makes 18, and 18 steps is around 55 feet.  That much travel west puts us in the vicinity of the star I've placed on the picture. At this point, I've economized much of my thinking on all the lines of the verse and then image 9.  Taking the "middle of a branch" to mean the "exact center of a checkerboard" is really compelling.  The game of checkers is one which allows only options of "forked" movement.  Even the line "look down and see simple roots / in rhapsodic man's soil" really draws my focus to this area when I consider the squares of a checkerboard (64 squares, 8 per side) and those in image 9, and the fact that the pieces custom constructed for these boards were crafted from "clear cedar" or high grade cedar pipe. The pieces were ACTUALLY attached to tree roots in the soil. Anyone can see that the statue of Lord Stanley in Stanley Park, Vancouver easily displays the characteristic of being rhapsodic: The best part about this is Leonard Bernstein is very likely the most well known person to have conducted the Rhapsody in Blue.

Whoa, I didn't know folks here considered Stanley Park way back as early as page 6 in this thread when Aces88 mentioned it.  Even Wilhouse landed some considerations on the Harding memorial.  Everything changed when Ravel07 found the Legeater on Aug. 11, 2006. A friend of mine is driving up to Whistler next week.  I'm going to run it by him to see if he's willing to stop at my proposed location for a dig 18 paces west of the northern most checkerboard's center.

Whoa, I didn't know folks here considered Stanley Park way back as early as page 6 in this thread when Aces88 mentioned it.  Even Wilhouse landed some considerations on the Harding memorial.  Everything changed when Ravel07 found the Legeater on Aug. 11, 2006. A friend of mine is driving up to Whistler next week.  I'm going to run it by him to see if he's willing to stop at my proposed location for a dig 18 paces west of the northern most checkerboard's center.

Find the arm that Extends over the slender path I checked the direction for where the Nine o'Clock Gun points and it actually does extend in the direction of the Canadian Pacific Railway terminal. 1) May a cannon "gun" be considered an "arm"? 2) May a transcontinental railroad track be described as a "slender path"?

Yes I would agree that both those would/could be valid possibilities. a gun is an arm, I'm surprised no one else has made that association And a railroad is definitely a slender path, I have heard that analogy before. but it was in conjunction with a narrow gauge railroad. If you compare a railroads width to its length and you surely get a slender path.

I've carefully looked at a map and in my best estimation of the direction this gun is pointing, here are some of the possible intersections for that vector: White triangle is the Nine o'Clock Gun's location in Stanley Park. Orange square is the location of the Waterfront Station which was the terminus for the CP Rail prior to 1979.  It still operates as a terminus of sorts, but the primary terminus has since been defined as the Pacific Central Station highlighted as the blue rectangle.  As you can see the "arm" does protract to that location to satisfy the "extends over the slender path" idea.  As far as I can tell, most guns of this type have a range from 1500 to 2000 yards.  This range limitation might be a consideration here.

Unknown: "The Siwash Rock" by E. Pauline Johnson [Tekahionwake] (1862-1913) From: Legends of Vancouver. by E. Pauline Johnson. Vancouver: David Spencer, Limited, 1911. pp. 11-20. Editor: Mary Mark Ockerbloom [Facing Page] THE SIWASH ROCK Bishop & Christie, Photo. [Page 11] The Siwash Rock UNIQUE, and so distinct from its surroundings as to suggest rather the handicraft of man than a whim of Nature, it looms up at the entrance to the Narrows, a symmetrical column of solid grey stone. There are no similar formations within the range of vision, or indeed within many a day's paddle up and down the coast. Amongst all the wonders, the natural beauties that encircle Vancouver, the marvels of mountains, shaped into crouching lions and brooding beavers, the yawning canyons, the stupendous forest firs and cedars, Siwash Rock stands as distinct, as individual, as if dropped from another sphere. I saw it first in the slanting light of a redly setting August sun; the little tuft of green shrubbery that crests its summit was black against the crimson of sea and [Page 12]  sky, and its colossal base of grey stone gleamed like flaming polished granite. My old tillicum lifted his paddle-blade to point towards it. "You know the story?" he asked. I shook my head (experience has taught me his love of silent replies, his moods of legend-telling). For a time we paddled slowly; the rack detached itself from its background of forest and shore, and it stood forth like a sentinel–erect, enduring, eternal. "Do you think it stands straight–like a man?" he asked. "Yes, like some noble-spirited, upright warrior," I replied. "It is a man," he said, "and a warrior man, too; a man who fought for everything that was noble and upright." "What do you regard as everything that is noble and upright, chief?" I asked, curious as to his ideas. I shall not forget the reply; it was but two words–astounding, amazing words. He said simply: "Clean fatherhood." Through my mind raced tumultuous recollections of numberless articles in [Page 13]  yet numberless magazines, all dealing with the recent "fad" of motherhood, but I had to hear from the lip of a Squamish Indian chief the only treatise on the nobility of "clean fatherhood" that I have yet unearthed. And this treatise has been an Indian legend for centuries; and, lest they forget how all-important those two little words must ever be, Siwash Rock stands to remind them, set there by the Deity as a monument to one who kept his own life clean, that cleanliness might be the heritage of the generations to come. It was "thousands of years ago" (all Indian legends begin in extremely remote times) that a handsome boy chief journeyed in his canoe to the upper coast for the shy little northern girl whom he brought home as his wife. Boy though he was, the young chief had proved himself to be an excellent warrior, a fearless hunter, and an upright, courageous man among men. His tribe loved him, his enemies respected him, and the base and mean and cowardly feared him. The customs and traditions of his [Page 14]  ancestors were a positive religion to him, the sayings and the advices of the old people were his creed. He was conservative in every rite and ritual of his race. He fought his tribal enemies like the savage that he was. He sang his war-songs, danced his war-dances, slew his foes, but the little girl-wife from the north he treated with the deference that he gave his own mother, for was she not to be the mother of his warrior son? The year rolled round, weeks merged into months, winter into spring, and one glorious summer at daybreak he wakened to her voice calling him. She stood beside him, smiling. "It will be to-day," she said proudly. He sprang from his couch of wolf-skins and looked out upon the coming day: the promise of what it would bring him seemed breathing through all his forest world. He took her very gently by the hand and led her through the tangle of wilderness down to the water's edge, where the beauty spot we moderns call Stanley Park bends about Prospect Point. "I must swim," he told her. [Page 15] "I must swim, too," she smiled, with the perfect understanding of two beings who are mated. For, to them, the old Indian custom was law–the custom that the parents of a coming child must swim until their flesh is so clear and clean that a wild animal cannot scent their proximity. If the wild creatures of the forests have no fear of them, then, and only then, are they fit to become parents, and to scent a human is in itself a fearsome thing to all wild creatures. So those two plunged into the waters of the Narrows as the grey dawn slipped up the eastern skies and all the forest awoke to the life of a new, glad day. Presently he took her ashore, and smilingly she crept away under the giant trees. "I must be alone," she said, "but come to me at sunrise: you will not find me alone then." He smiled also, and plunged back into the sea. He must swim, swim, swim through this hour when his fatherhood was coming upon him. It was the law that he must be clean, spotlessly clean, so that when his child looked out upon the world it would [Page 16]  have the chance to live its own life clean. If he did not swim hour upon hour his child would come to an unclean father. He must give his child a chance in life; he must not hamper it by his own uncleanliness at its birth. It was the tribal law–the law of vicarious purity. As he swam joyously to and fro, a canoe bearing four men headed up the Narrows. These men were giants in stature, and the stroke of their paddles made huge eddies that boiled like the seething tides. "Out from our course!" they cried as his lithe, copper-coloured body arose and fell with his splendid stroke. He laughed at them, giants though they were, and answered that he could not cease his swimming at their demand. "But you shall cease!" they commanded. "We are the men [agents] of the Sagalie Tyee [God], and we command you ashore out of our way!" (I find in all these Coast Indian legends that the Deity is represented by four men, usually paddling an immense canoe.) He ceased swimming, and, lifting his [Page 17]  head, defied them. "I shall not stop, nor yet go ashore," he declared, striking out once more to the middle of the channel. "Do you dare disobey us," they cried–"we, the men of the Sagalie Tyee? We can turn you into a fish, or a tree, or a stone for this; do you dare disobey the Great Tyee?" "I dare anything for the cleanliness and purity of my coming child. I dare even the Sagalie Tyee Himself, but my child must be born to a spotless life." The four men were astounded. They consulted together, lighted their pipes, and sat in council. Never had they, the men of the Sagalie Tyee, been defied before. Now, for the sake of a little unborn child, they were ignored, disobeyed, almost despised. The lithe young copper-coloured body still disported itself in the cool waters; superstition held that should their canoe, or even their paddle-blades, touch a human being, their marvellous power would be lost. The handsome young chief swam directly in their course. They dared not run him down; if so, they would become as other men. While [Page 18]  they yet counselled what to do, there floated from out the forest a faint, strange, compelling sound. They listened, and the young chief ceased his stroke as he listened also. The faint sound drifted out across the waters once more. It was the cry of a little, little child. Then one of the four men, he that steered the canoe, the strongest and tallest of them all, arose, and, standing erect, stretched out his arms towards the rising sun and chanted, not a curse on the young chief's disobedience, but a promise of everlasting days and freedom from death. "Because you have defied all things that come in your path we promise this to you," he chanted: "you have defied what interferes with your child's chance for a clean life, you have lived as you wish your son to live, you have defied us when we would have stopped your swimming and hampered your child's future. You have placed that child's future before all things, and for this the Sagalie Tyee commands us to make you for ever a pattern for your tribe. You shall never die, but you shall stand through all the [Page 19]  thousands of years to come, where all eyes can see you. You shall live, live, live as an indestructible monument to Clean Fatherhood." The four men lifted their paddles and the handsome young chief swam inshore; as his feet touched the line where sea and land met he was transformed into stone. Then the four men said, "His wife and child must ever be near him; they shall not die, but live also." And they, too, were turned into stone. If you penetrate the hollows in the woods near Siwash Rock you will find a large rock and a smaller one beside it. They are the shy little bride-wife from the north, with her hour-old baby beside her. And from the uttermost parts of the world vessels come daily throbbing and sailing up the Narrows. From far trans-Pacific ports, from the frozen North, from the lands of the Southern Cross, they pass and repass the living rock that was there before their hulls were shaped, that will be there when their very names are forgotten, when their crews and their captains have taken their long last voyage, [Page 20]  when their merchandise has rotted, and their owners are known no more. But the tall, grey column of stone will still be there–a monument to one man's fidelity to a generation yet unborn–and will endure from everlasting to everlasting. [Page 20] The first two lines, In the shadow Of the grey Giant I've already noted a visual similarity in the Siwash Rock to the 180 degree flipped collar in image9, Now I'm curious about this writing by poet Pauline Johnson, there is talk of giants and Siwash Rock, standing over 50 feet tall is described as grey.

The two lines where "Natives speak" had me wondering if there is emphasis on the word "speak" for the reason that it might apply to a dog's "bark".  Bark is also the skin of a tree.  Native Indians used trees for many thi  I'm thinking either totem poles or canoes have a significance in this puzzle. "Hard word" seems like a curse.  Something hard and also a word...perhaps hard as stone, a stone curse then?  Why is Hard capitalized?  I've previously jumped to the conclusion od the Harding Memorial of Stanley Park.  This is in the sense that Hard is a variant on the Presidents name.  The word hard is typically an ordinary adjective.  Perhaps this instance of capitalization is similar to the case where common pronouns Him, His, or He are capitalized to reference God.  "Hard word" could then mean God-like word.  An alternate consideration stems from the line about simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil.  Simple is the opposite of hard.  Does this offer insight into some situation where a word is difficult?  What difficult word could this be about in the minds of Natives?  Are Natives necessarily Native Americans?  Natives could be local domestic people.  Any foreign word might be difficult for locals.  There might be a lot of interesting possibilities with this. Something particular to Stanley Park occurred to me.  A note on Siwash Rock says it shares the alternate name "Nine-Pin Rock".  Ninr -pin is the European version and precursor to American 10-pin bowling.  The word rhapsodic is a synonym for joyous.  Leaping to Beethoven's Ode to Joy, I wonder if it connects with the number 9, (9th Symphony, 9-pin, 9 o'clock gun).  I do like that Siwash Rock is the result of the four great chief's cursing the young chief thus immortalizing him as a stone monument to Clean Fatherhood.  I also like the note that word siwash is considered a pejorative term in some contexts.

The two lines where "Natives speak" had me wondering if there is emphasis on the word "speak" for the reason that it might apply to a dog's "bark".  Bark is also the skin of a tree.  Native Indians used trees for many thi  I'm thinking either totem poles or canoes have a significance in this puzzle. "Hard word" seems like a curse.  Something hard and also a word...perhaps hard as stone, a stone curse then?  Why is Hard capitalized?  I've previously jumped to the conclusion od the Harding Memorial of Stanley Park.  This is in the sense that Hard is a variant on the Presidents name.  The word hard is typically an ordinary adjective.  Perhaps this instance of capitalization is similar to the case where common pronouns Him, His, or He are capitalized to reference God.  "Hard word" could then mean God-like word.  An alternate consideration stems from the line about simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil.  Simple is the opposite of hard.  Does this offer insight into some situation where a word is difficult?  What difficult word could this be about in the minds of Natives?  Are Natives necessarily Native Americans?  Natives could be local domestic people.  Any foreign word might be difficult for locals.  There might be a lot of interesting possibilities with this. Something particular to Stanley Park occurred to me.  A note on Siwash Rock says it shares the alternate name "Nine-Pin Rock".  Ninr -pin is the European version and precursor to American 10-pin bowling.  The word rhapsodic is a synonym for joyous.  Leaping to Beethoven's Ode to Joy, I wonder if it connects with the number 9, (9th Symphony, 9-pin, 9 o'clock gun).  I do like that Siwash Rock is the result of the four great chief's cursing the young chief thus immortalizing him as a stone monument to Clean Fatherhood.  I also like the note that word siwash is considered a pejorative term in some contexts.

In the shadow A synonym for shadow is 'dog', to track or pursue.  I cant help but wonder if we're playing the flip the letters game DOG = GOD.  Not a very strong idea, but I just want to toss it in the mix anyways. Perhaps "In the pursuit" is the intention of this line.  The indirect synonym of dog might be a supporter of the idea that the use of the word "speak" as synonymous for 'bark'. Another synonym related too shadow is 'umbrage', which means to take offense or to be in the shade cast by trees.  I like the offense or insult version as it bolsters the sense that Hard word might relate to the "cursed by the gods" idea.  Siwash rock certainly represents that case having a plaque historical marker even saying so.  I have to check back on the name of the god, it starts with the letter 'Q' which could possibly be worked into how the legeater is presented in the square, like a Q with the small line segment breaking a circle but a square instead.  Another note about Siwash Rock, the word 'siwash' (v.tr) means to camp outdoors using only natural shelter.  Shelter such as the cover of trees relates to umbrage, thus 'shadow' is one of the keenest choice of words imaginable if Siwash Rock was Preiss' object. The first two lines of every verse I think act as the first stepping stone for each path. Of the grey giant could be a "Canada's vastness above (north) casting a shadow on America".  Its a broad stroke in that sense but possibly carefully constructed to fit a more specific context at the same time.

Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Three volumes could refer to any three solid objects having mass and volume.  The legend reviewed by Pauline Johnston describes the transformation of of a young chief into Siwash Rock but also says his wife and newborn child join him in the immortalization of becoming monuments in stone.  Chief + Mother + Child = 3 volumes.

well by your own logic that would not work as it would be 3 people in three separate volumes Where the line specifically states him in 3 vols. singular, not them. so I don't think that works.

It's still strange that the word Hard is capitalized.  I think it looks very ambiguous whether the "him" of Hard word is the person(s) transformed, the target of the Hard word or the person speaking the Hard word.  In that sense, the logic affecting 3 separate people should work. Here's the plaque: Q'uas spoke the Hard word's in this case. maltedfalcon, on a similar note, I've had trouble finding that wall plaque at the Palace of the Legion of Honor.  I think you confirmed that there were the words "Spreckles sugar fortune" on it?  Could you dig that up (again) please?  Search function hasn't been working very well for me on these forums lately.

I know this has been mentioned before (digger, trohn), but Windsor, Canada might be a good place to look for clues. It is "in the shadow of the grey giant" (Detroit), and there is a prominent "isle of B" right there in the Detroit River, which one can look north toward. Also, "cars abound" = Detroit in most people's minds, and we know there's a Canada casque. Any substance to this?

forest_blight wrote:: I know this has been mentioned before (digger, trohn), but Windsor, Canada might be a good place to look for clues. It is "in the shadow of the grey giant" (Detroit), and there is a prominent "isle of B" right there in the Detroit River, which one can look north toward. Also, "cars abound" = Detroit in most people's minds, and we know there's a Canada casque. Any substance to this? I just looked into this preliminarily, and some of the connections i've found are fun. I think I am going to look into this for a while today... just for fun. det to win -> ambassador bridge -> arm that extends 1410 Drouillard Rd, Windsor, ON N8Y 2R9 -> street view lady of the lake nearby seminole st across from ford plant

Not to mention Chopin park (rhapsodic man?).

forest_blight wrote:: Not to mention Chopin park (rhapsodic man?). gosh buddy, give me a minute. stop spoilin' it for me!

the annontated shakespeare?

Id go with Gershwin as my first choice, Beethoven second, and Chopin third.

Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down approximately 22 driveways east of the main VIA branch (the v) in windsor, just past a alexander park (see woman's neck), and due south, is chopin park. due north is belle isle. alternatively, there are opposite running via tracks running next to each other on the north border of chopin. alternatively, next door to the via branch is the worlds biggest parking lot and an onion dome church on Drouillard and Cadillac St. - here's the Cadillac St. side - hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=298+Walker+Rd,+Windsor,+ON+N8Y+2M9,+Canada&daddr=Riverside+Dr+E&hl=en≪=42.326441,-83.002208&spn=0.000466,0.000698&sll=42.322985,-82.993255&sspn=0.020973,0.044675&geocode=FYHYhQIdPmAN-ylxh9KGuSw7iDHP_GyXCssNhQ%3BFRbdhQId5L4N-w&t=h&mra=mrv&z=21&layer=c&cbll=42.326441,-83.002208&panoid=0oBoKuVMnvm-lS9zfpo0Xg&cbp=12,235.41,,0,-13.45 - check out the backyard on aerial (circle in park) the woman at the Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument is has an arm extended toward Cadillac sq. Take that to Cadillac St. and end up in Cadillac park... phew... cars abound.

Oh goodness, an onion dome. This is almost too much! Still, it's one dome too few...

forest_blight wrote:: Oh goodness, an onion dome. This is almost too much! Still, it's one dome too few... I am not entirely sure that we need to find all three in one spot. Consider the castle in the box on the Boston image. At the end of the day, though, the only possibility for v10 being windsor is i12. And i12 pretty clearly has a 41/74. While the considerations and coorelations are fun, I am HIGHLY doubtful that this verse is Windsor.

Hey all. My first ever post on this site. I've been scoping out other peoples ideas on this hunt and started to get a few of my own. It took a while to get approved to enter. I just want to share my ideas. These are my thoughts for verse 10 and image 12. I like NY due to all the references in the pic. So I started there and this is what I came up with. Hopefully someone from NY reads this so they can check out the site and prove me right or wrong. I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts on this verse or pic so if I repeat an idea I apologize. I agree that the shape of the dress is Manhattan but I also think the griffin at the bottom left with the crown means Kings in Brooklyn. Also if you flip the image over and look at the part of the dress hanging off the waist at about a 45 degree angle you will see the Statue of Liberty head and arm. Feel free to tear apart my theory or add to it. "In the shadow Of the grey giant" Standing on liberty island you will be in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty, literally or metaphorically. I know she isn't really grey but bear with me.. "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path" At the front of the base of the statue there is a small path from the waters edge. If you follow this path it goes under the base. The base has a star-like appearance. This path goes under one of the points of the star. So this point is the "arm" that "extends over the slender path". Look at that particular star point. Use it as an arrow. It points somewhere. But we need a boat to follow it. "In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound" Maybe need to work on this part a bit. When there are boats on the water you can ride one to the mainland. Following the star point you will end up in Brooklyn where cars abound. "Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native" I'm not sure about this. There's possibly a sign referencing natives of the land (maybe Lenape?) or maybe we need to break down this line more. I'm still looking for a solution. Once in Brooklyn, keep following the exact path of the star point. It will eventually take you directly to the entrance of Prospect Park. At the entrance is the Soldiers and Sailors Arch, like the arch in the pic. Maybe in this area is a reference sign about the natives so we know to stop here. Inside the park is Concert Grove. There are many statues in the grove, one of whom is Lincoln. "The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." Many people believe this refers to Harding. It may, but I'm looking for a connection to Lincoln. You'll see why in a minute. "Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more" OK. So decoding the verse correctly is supposed to give us an exact location to dig. There's no denying that for all the verses. So for this one we are to stand in a certain spot and "Take twice as many east steps as the hour". We should follow that exact number and not deviate from the instructions. So I asked myself, why "Take twice as many east steps as the hour  / OR MORE"? "Or more" can be 1 more step or 50 more steps. That would take us out of the dig area and veer away from precise instructions. So I looked into it. If you stand at the Lincoln statue in Concert Grove and "Take twice as many east steps as the hour" (that being 22 steps due to the 11 o'clock in the pic), you will line up with another statue to the north. That statue just so happens to be Thomas Moore! So I came to the conclusion that this part of the verse is telling us to go east 22 steps from Lincoln OR go east until you line up with Moore. Considering everyone's steps are different, this could be a reference that we are lined up in the correct spot after taking the steps. "From the middle of one branch Of the v" Following the 22 step/Moore route you will be standing near the middle of one of the walkways in Prospect Park. And conveniently it is one arm of a "V" shaped sidewalk! These sidewalks are also round bricks like the stones in the window of the pic. "Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil" Of all the statues in Concert Grove, most of them are composers. And "Concert" Grove? Sounds like rhapsodic mans soil to me. "Or gaze north Toward the isle of B." An isle is a small island. Directly north of Prospect Park is Belmont Island in the East River. A very small island. So to sum up, I think we need to dig at the point where we are in line with the Lincoln and Moore statues next to one arm of the V. I could be way off base here but it can't hurt to throw ideas out there right? Deuce

Deuce wrote:: Hey all. My first ever post on this site. I've been scoping out other peoples ideas on this hunt and started to get a few of my own. It took a while to get approved to enter. I just want to share my ideas. Deuce Welcome, buddy. Glad to have you, and thanks for sharing your ideas! While they leave a lot unsaid, I'm glad you didn't jump in here with a full solution. It's great to see new ideas! Your play with "Take twice as many east steps as the hour / Or more" is interesting.

I must say it's a fun exercise thinking about NY and verse 10.  I spent a lot of time dinking around Ellis Island and took the Staten Island Ferry a few times. I can't say any whirring ideas come to mind.  If anything, whirring must be associated with a "fan" type of machinery...and then summertime...conveys sunlight, heat, vacation, etc.  I was vacationing, it was summer, my family thought it would be fun to go see the SoL.  ...hmm, "sol" is sun right?  sol + R = solar.  Just free associating here, could the latin "R" sound where the tongue rolls kind of a whirring?? The use of "Or" in the verse interests me, it's an option clue.  Option A or B.  Hmm... the thematic inference here is that we are in a position to make two choices. NY is a tricky place to work with.  It's got it all.

Being Mr. Preiss worked in NYC and lived in Long Island at the time the booked published, seems just natural for him to plant a treasure close to home. I would have. No airfare, flying to another state, etc, etc.

erexere wrote:: I must say it's a fun exercise thinking about NY and verse 10.  I spent a lot of time dinking around Ellis Island and took the Staten Island Ferry a few times. I can't say any whirring ideas come to mind.  If anything, whirring must be associated with a "fan" type of machinery...and then summertime...conveys sunlight, heat, vacation, etc.  I was vacationing, it was summer, my family thought it would be fun to go see the SoL.   ...hmm, "sol" is sun right?  sol + R = solar.   Just free associating here, could the latin "R" sound where the tongue rolls kind of a whirring?? The use of "Or" in the verse interests me, it's an option clue.  Option A or B.  Hmm... the thematic inference here is that we are in a position to make two choices. NY is a tricky place to work with.  It's got it all. I have another meaning for S.O.L. that fits well into this hunt!!!

I found this map of Prospect Park which clearly shows the locations of the statues that were mentioned. We have another link to Mozart and Beethoven. The paths radiate in a V from Lincoln. I thought the map was a golf course but it seems it is an unofficial disc golf course whereby frisbees are thrown. The reviews of Preston Park are interesting as the competitors have problems with the public in the park who return their discs to them not knowing they are playing a golf game. They also lose their course markers. hxxp://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1714&mode=rev A few reviews containing some useful comments on when best to go to the park.

Thanks wk. I feel good about this location although my idea needs touched up a bit. Still trying to verify a reference to Lincoln. But looking at your map puts things into perspective since I didn't post one. Hope someone can prove or disprove this site soon.

I agree.  This is a totally cool map.  Reuse of M and B and another L reference seems like a very positive direction as well.

First and second lines have this meaning for me, In the shadow, idiomatic for something lesser as in being dwarfed by someone's greatness. Of the grey giant, something the color grey that represents some great achievement.

Just a basic analysis of the poem informs us of something to do with a tree: branch, roots, soil.  The legeater lamp from the image draws significance from Lord Stephens residence/club as either a landmark or as a significnace in some other respect.  Being that his involvement with the C.P. Railway was tremendous to say the least, I think that fact pairs well with the line "Cars abound" giving us a secondary focus: trains. Reviewing my thoughts on the first two lines, I am considering one or more things to do with: small and big in sense of size or importance as well as the color grey (but possibly the name Grey or the attribute of old age as its commonly related to the color grey).  I have considered Vancouver primarily for my interpretation of the lat and long of 49/123 since I see the "4" and inverted "9" sharing the same vertical line in the bottom left corner of the flower in image 9.  I have not considered the Montreal location even though that's the location of the legeater lamp.  Perhaps someone might have something to suggest having to do with tree and rail that fits Montreal.  In the meantime, I'm actually most intrigued with the tree and rail references offered in Stanley Park, Vancouver BC, specifically the "Hollow Tree" and the miniature train, both being mere shadows of a once great past.  The tree still stands with the support of metal rods and cement.  It's size and age of it and it's hollow center that allow a person to stand in or park a car inside are it's allure.  The miniature train represents the CPR and it's great contribution towards uniting east and west Canada.  Perhaps the train is or was seen as 'grey' in color.  I don't know. Anyways, those are my thoughts.  I currently think it's very important to interpret the first lines for an initial starting connection but also to revisit them for the additional or secondary value they might have as a form of verification of being on the right track.

Not to disprove your idea but here is just something I found and wanted to add. I've been thinking about your "grey giant". I like my pointing liberty idea but it may or may not be correct considering shes green. So I started looking at the Soldiers and Sailors Arch in Grand Army Plaza at the entrance to Prospect Park. It is a triumphal arch dedicated "To the Defenders of the Union". So I dug further... Standing in the arch on the "slender path" you are literally "in the shadow of the grey giant". On the walls inside the arch are Grant on a horse on one side and Lincoln on a horse on the other. The interesting thing is that Grant has his arms bent holding the reins while Lincoln has one "arm that extends". Can this be a clue to make us look at Lincoln inside the arch and then find him in Prospect Park? Also the roadway is very close to and actually surrounds the arch. "Cars abound"? Just thinking out loud. Deuce

The more alternatives the merrier. That Grant/Lincoln/Arch idea rocks.  If my head wasn't packed full of so many other ideas I'd get into the Prospect Park idea. I can't argue that Image 12 doesn't have some good NY/SoL characteristics.  The Moorish/Russian architecture hasn't been rolled into that yet has it? Keep rollin with it, Deuce.  ;)

We've been looking at the arch for a while, and Lincoln's arm points to Grant on the other side of the arch rather than outward somewhere. What is interesting though, is that the Empire State building is centered in the arch (similar to the chrysler gargoyle in the middle of the arch/image): A really interesting read: hxxp://thebrooklynmirador.com/

That's awesome. I'm liking this location more and more each day. I think I read a post where someone pointed out a possible Empire State Building in the sleeve shadow of image 12. Lets keep this rhythm going. I think we're close.

That's what she said

If this Prospect is the right track I'll be suprised.  I have doubts about my theories just the same.  Its suprising to see how well something fits together only to end up wrong is what I'm saying. So, how does prospect park fit a root, branch, soil theme?

Deuce wrote:: "Or gaze north toward the isle of B." An isle is a small island. Directly north of Prospect Park is Belmont Island in the East River. A very small island. I just got round to looking at this on Google maps. No way. Prospect Park is miles inland.

True. It is inland. But since the verse says "or gaze north "toward" the isle of B." I don't thing we need to actually see the island. It's just a reference point to say this island is north of the site. It doesn't say anything about "seeing" the island.

Erexere you're exactly right. That's what makes this so tough. The endless possibilities. But until a site is absolutely disproved we don't know what is actually right or wrong. I'll never say that I'm 100% right on any of these but who's to say I'm wrong.

Deuce wrote:: I'll never say that I'm 100% right on any of these but who's to say I'm wrong. malted. Seriously though, here's a fun one:

Where is that? I hope at Prospect!

Yes. It's a tuft of chest hair on Bailey Fountain.

I think the simple roots and rhapsodic mans soil are the grounds of concert grove.

Now consider how to work in the moorish architecture and the XI oclock.

Never considered the 11 o'clock for anything other than doubling it for the number of steps. But after taking a quick look at Prospect Park I just realized that if you use Grand Army Plaza as the center of the clock and due south as XII, 11 o'clock would be near Concert Grove. It's not exact, more like 11:30. But it's just a thought. I might be getting tunnel vision and just looking for things that fit my ideas.

it's the time between vanderbilt and flatbush

Deuce wrote:: It doesn't say anything about "seeing" the island. Well, it kind of does...if someone invited me to "gaze north toward the Eiffel Tower", I'd expect to be able to see it - and the image has a clear picture of Bedloe's Island, visible from Shore Road Park, not to mention all the other clues that have been found for this unvisited location.

I agree that it looks like Shore Road Park. What else has been found to point to this site? Anything in the park? I'll totally jump on board if there's enough proof.

The only proof would be finding a casque. Are you in or near New York...? I've never been able to get in contact with anyone local willing to investigate. I didn't come up with this park but it's definitely my favourite. Here's my summary on it... hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc/thesecret/newyork.pdf The stuff about the 22 steps or more is a bit confusing; it could do with someone exploring the area on foot.

I'm in Ohio. It's just my luck that the closest one to me was already found. I would love to go to NY though. Don't have any free time right now to travel. Need to convince the wife to go "sight-seeing" there someday. "Why are you bringing a shovel honey?" "Oh, you know... it can be a pretty dangerous city."

hxxp://www.amazon.com/Military-Surplus- ... el+in+case and keep it at the bottom of your suitcase...

maltedfalcon wrote:: hxxp://www.amazon.com/Military-Surplus- ... el+in+case and keep it at the bottom of your suitcase... Wow that looks perfect for those covert digs. I want one.

Title:    In The Shadows Author: E. Pauline Johnson I am sailing to the leeward, Where the current runs to seaward Soft and slow, Where the sleeping river grasses Brush my paddle as it passes To and fro. On the shore the heat is shaking All the golden sands awaking In the cove; And the quaint sand-piper, winging O'er the shallows, ceases singing When I move. On the water's idle pillow Sleeps the overhanging willow, Green and cool; Where the rushes lift their burnished Oval heads from out the tarnished Emerald pool. Where the very silence slumbers, Water lilies grow in numbers, Pure and pale; All the morning they have rested, Amber crowned, and pearly crested, Fair and frail. Here, impossible romances, Indefinable sweet fancies, Cluster round; But they do not mar the sweetness Of this still September fleetness With a sound. I can scarce discern the meeting Of the shore and stream retreating, So remote; For the laggard river, dozing, Only wakes from its reposing Where I float. Where the river mists are rising, All the foliage baptizing With their spray; There the sun gleams far and faintly, With a shadow soft and saintly, In its ray. And the perfume of some burning Far-off brushwood, ever turning To exhale All its smoky fragrance dying, In the arms of evening lying, Where I sail. My canoe is growing lazy, In the atmosphere so hazy, While I dream; Half in slumber I am guiding, Eastward indistinctly gliding Down the stream.

Of the grey giant It's always a shot in the dark when evaluating a single line as vague as this... Of the grey giant might mean something which is a substance of a whole.  This puts me back on the idea of the Lumberman's Arch where it's just one tree being used to represent the great arch that preceded it, made of many large trees.

hxxp://voices.yahoo.com/the-chrysler-building-famous-art-deco-architecture-2818135.html great article. while you read, consider... grey giant tiny red and blue spheres from the painting cars abound (def.: to be used with in or with) Given this, I had a little fun: the grey giant is the Chrysler Building (tallest 'grey' brick building in the world) it's shadow is grand central terminal (cars abound) with the statues arm extended pointing towards Madison Ave take 22 streets south across the East streets (twice as many east steps as the hour) and get to 23rd St. (or more) you are now at Madison Square Park. go to Worth Obelisk, who fought in the Seminole Wars (3 of those) gershwin hotel (since 1903) is right next to you the clock and the rightmost onion dome is above you (met life tower) the V is right next to you (Flatiron Building) the door is right next to you (the water main controller buidling door)

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Twice as many steps as the hour?  What are all the options here?  In regular time we have only the hours numbered 1-12, but in military we add 13-24.  It could be a question of which hour, perhaps the "11" from image 12, or some other image if it's not 12.  We all know I'm already set on verse 10 with image 9, but even so, I'm using a land mark that actually is called "Nine O'Clock" to derive an 18 step answer (twice 9 = 18).  I was just thinking that's just another shot in the dark until I've really grasped the options.  I was just looking at the clock on my wall, analog, and I wondered if it's typical to see five markings for the five minutes interlaced within each hour delineation.  What if we're suppose to consider each stepping of the second hand within the frame between one hour mark and the next.  Five steps.  I think that rationale could just be a tricky move to consider when digging. A point of advice: if you start with whichever hour you think gets you there and find nothing, be sure to try digging at 10 steps (paces) or about 30 feet as backup option.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: hxxp://voices.yahoo.com/the-chrysler-building-famous-art-deco-architecture-2818135.html great article WhiteRabbit wrote:: Re: the cars, they might tie in with the Chrysler building. BP also played with making one thing look like another in Imagine A Day . "In another painting, children walk along a picket fence, which almost imperceptibly turns into a city skyline that features the Chrysler Building." Chrysler may also connect with Chrysanthemum, the image 12 flower (from Chrysos, gold). Thought I'd re-post this to go with your Chrysler idea... You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound "Cars abound" is strange, and there may be more to it. Perhaps the "cars" reference and the representation of the Chrysler building is a subtle way of helping tie the verse to the image or something. (I was also wondering randomly about a helicoper that was "casa bound".)

you'll often hear a whirring sound is most likely grand central terminal departure boards (until 1996, anyways -- read about split-flap boards); this is why i say the cars abound line is also most probably grand central, if this V is nyc anyways.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Did you get the red and blue marbles? I was pretty proud of that one.

erexere wrote:: Title:     In The Shadows Author: E. Pauline Johnson Hyperlinks are your friend. Loooooooooong posts that make it hard to read through pages on the forum are not.

Thanks for the etiquette tip four21.  I was just compensating for my shorter attributes.

erexere wrote:: Thanks for the etiquette tip four21.  I was just compensating for my shorter attributes. I am the last to understand any sort of etiquette. I was simply saying that for my own benefit. You're reply made me LOL!

Whirring.  I just reviewed the dictionary on this and realized I had it stuck in my head that it was synonymmous with whirling.  Appar ently this might just be a good hint to do with the miniature train as it makes noise while rapidly transporting people.

I think I'm having a moment of clarity here in consideration of the word "isle".  Conventionally we refer to any small island as an isle, but it can be less conventionally be used to describe any small area or platform used for the placement of something. In Stanley Park, I've been looking at different things involving the a name that start's with B spread out over a great distance, Burrard, Beaver, Brockton, and Bowen.  It's all too loose or abstract and therefore wrong.  I'm gathering a strong sense for these verses now and I think the "isle of B" must be some reference that is very well defined, possibly a point of reference for finding the specific casque spot. I've been researching the Lumberman's Arch quite a bit and may have something sharp.  Originally it was built in 1912 by architect George Pigrum Bowie at Pender and Hamilton.  It was then moved to the current site of the Lumberman's Arch, dismantled in 1947, and replaced by the simple log arch with plaque since.  It's nickname is the "Bowie Arch".  I believe it satisfies the unconventional sense of an isle.  Something could concievably be placed upon it and it would be cut off or isolated from it's surroundings unless it were to fall off.  I think we must find a spot that is visually south of the arch, or "isle of Bowie". The spot by the checkerboards isn't directly south of the Lumberman's Arch but there is a direct path which passes the WWI memorial that connects the two.

The more I look at it, it's grey, it's giant, it's a slender path, it has historical significance, a plaque, a B. name, isle-like, and most of all it leads to a WWI memorial (poppy flower symbolism) and then the checkerboards.  No stretches of imagination, all literal, all clever in an unconventional sense. To bad I can't pin down the blob.  nada on that damn thing.

Unfortunately, I think you are forcing answers again x. There have been so many clarity moments for you...unfortunately they are all on the same V/I and all lead to different locations.

fox wrote:: Unfortunately, I think you are forcing answers again x. There have been so many clarity moments for you...unfortunately they are all on the same V/I and all lead to different locations. Sheesh, I thought my vapid-flaccid-garrulous findings wouldn't continue to be percieved as forced.  My ideas must seem like the infected corpses on the Walking Dead.  If so, I invite a cout de grace.  Show me the crowbar.  Convince us where an idea has utterly failed to perform up to standards.  There is nothing wrong with a hearty and precise stab to the core. If my pairings are wrong, we won't know until a casque is found.  But if that is the extent of you're criticism, then why bother reading any of these posts?  Let's get down to business.  Look for clarity and yes, avoid forcing things, that has gotten so many of us into trouble, we (I) know that now (and thanks for the reminder), but have I really done that?  How?  I've only made a statement of clarity in the syntax of "See Spot.  See Spot run.  See spot fetch ball."  I'll be damned if that log isn't grey, extending over a slender path (all other paths around are actually wider by comparison), the No.374 CPR train has an irrefutable connection to Lord Stephens who has the infamous legeater on his doorstep, the poppy flower IS well known as a symbol of the Canadian involvement in the theater of WWI, and then we have giant checkerboards.

egads.  I'm sorry for ranting, it doesn't really contribute towards making positive strides. Regardless of what V/I pairing I'm working with, one thing I'd expect worthy of inspection is the idea relating to the games children play.  A pretend island is a common game.  A couch, a throw rug, a tree stump, or anything that allows a child to feel like they are stranded on an island in an imaginative landscape might be the tactic at work here.  Imagine getting close to where the casque is buried and then wondering what next thing will bring you closer.  Gazing north at the isle of B... could be relating to a childs pretend game as I said.  That would be most suitable if there's a children's play area to the north of where the casque is buried. I'll take a look at the map of my area in Stanley Park and see if there's a children's area.

slappybuns wrote:: i still like robert moses, on page 16 it says "Law of the Prophets", and then i found this: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Unknown: Situated just south of the United Nations , this full-block site was acquired by the city in 1937 as part of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel construction, another Moses undertaking. The playground, which was completed in 1941, shares the block with the tunnel’s ventilating tower. The site was named for Moses by the City Council in 1982 If the arm that extends be Moses... ...which is straight down the street from Chrysler, and on the coast looking north is Blackwell Island. It's basketball courts around a ventilation building. The picture sure looks like a bball court key.

still chewing on the island idea...took the kids to gymastics and watched them pretend they were on a boat as they walked across the balance beam. The first line: In the shadow I think it's terrific that Pauline Johnson has a poem named "In the Shadows" and maybe that's an obscure reference, but if my suspicions are correct then it will have more to do with the site including an alternate meaning such as to look for a situation where a person is contrasted with someone more skilled or better known (which might apply to anything and everything) or something which is obscure or secondary to something more recognized (again, that might apply to anything and everything). My current focus on a site is the checkerboards area of Stanley Park in Vancouver BC.  One thing that I can think would apply is the general sense that each time people play checkers there's a winner and a loser, the loser then is in the shadow of the winner.  Another is based on the etymology lookup referring to a designation of members of an opposition party chosen as counterparts of the government in power.  Another is the verb form to do with protecting or sheltering and also to follow closely.  Checkers is a game where you meet in opposition.  If the word takes the place of shadow we have the phrase "in the checkers", which I like since I've determined that you must stand in the center of the checkerboard that represents one of the branches of the V, but it might also apply to the closet where the pieces are kept away in storage and "in the shadow" then means "in [closet] the checkers".  I'm still chewing on the idea of "Or more" being a heterograph of "armoire".  It might seem a stretch, but considering that many of the lines each have their own purpose, we have a choice to consider that thre's a measure of twice as many steps of the hour and then the next line "or more" really puts strain on the previous line.  Considered separately, what else does it leave us to consider?  At least now we have an option, armoire=closet.  If there happens to be a closet and nothing else notable near a site, then you might have to conclude that it's there as a marker to be used for locating an exact spot.  That's my latest theory, someone needs to investigate this site and see what's really going on.  Google view isn't cutting it.

Reread Pauline Johnson's poem In the Shadows and the first line, "I am sailing to the leeward," is very interesting to me.  In the Preiss verse, the line about taking "east steps" intrigues me because it is an unusual way to pose a direction.  The usual way is "steps east", which is clearly saying steps towards east, but calling the "east steps" places emphasis on the step in a way similar to how wind direction is described.  An east wind is actually blowing in the direction west.  So a step east is in the direction east and an east step is in the direction west.  It is actually a pleasant surprise that Pauline Johnson poem begins with a line about wind direction.  Figuring out the rest of the line, what hour to base the distance on and what is meant by "or more" in the next line is very challenging and I'm still considering what the title of her poem means.  She talks about the natural settings encountered by a passing canoe only it isn't so much passing as it is following the beauty and being present in the immediate surroundings.  The words "In the shadows" is referring to the all encompassing beauty that is witnessed in the many momentus details of the landscape.

I would guess it more likely that "east steps" indicates that there are also "west steps" as in a matched stairway with one side to the east and one side to the west. This is a clever way to indicate which staircase to use...

I think I thought of this before, but in case I hadn't, Find the arm that Extends over the slender path The Nine o'clock Gun aims over the water and over the railways.  A rail is slender.

Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v I have an adjustment here.  The reason you can take more steps is that it takes you to a spot that doesnt allow further travel.  The number of steps will fit something, what, I'm not sure, but it really diesnt matter because the start and end of the path are limited.  The V is the center of the stone seating area beneath the center of the shelter.  East steps takes you west, as opposed to "steps east" which would take you east.  I think the stopping point is the edge of the concrete or the tree.  I can't tell for sure.  Maybe try due west through the center checkerboard.

erexere wrote:: The reason you can take more steps is that it takes you to a spot that doesnt allow further travel.  The number of steps will fit something, what, I'm not sure, but it really diesnt matter because the start and end of the path are limited. Very possibly; I can't think of a better interpretation.

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It appears that this Verse has come down to either New York or Montreal.  I will just "throw out there" some ideas that I recall were kicked around some time ago, one of them by my friend Siskel: Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native Probably a reference to Alexander Hamilton, a native of the West Indies. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Siskel came up with Charles Dickens, who wrote Hard Times, which is composed of 3 books. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Times So, find 2 plaques/monuments/statues relating to these 2 guys in New York or Montreal.  Go! (there is a monument to Hamilton's duel with Burr in Weehauken, NJ, which is near Ellis Island)

Wow. I like the Charles Dickens idea.  I would pursue it if I wasn't fully commited to the Warren G. Harding in Stanley Park theory.  Also the Duel has been something in the back of my mind every time I see the line from verse 6, "between two arms extended".

I spent many hours on the internet looking at Stanley Park, Warren Harding, etc.  However, it appears that Image 9 is Montreal and Image 12 is New York.  There really is not much doubt about it at this point.  So, I think it is just a coincidence that there is a Harding memorial in Vancouver.  There are no more Images left for Vancouver, IMHO.

I'm satisfied with the poetic reference by P.J. (her initials in the X square on image 9's lapel) and her poem "In the Shadows".  I'm solidly convinced by the Gateway to the Northwest Passage as a match to the Legeaters border.  I'm 100% inclined to think the Montreal based clues are correctly identified for the reason that they apply to the railway and the expansion of the forrest industry.  Trees are giants, trees are shade, wood builds shelters.  I think ts important to recognize what is meant by "shining shifting smoke". The LotJ gives a clue in what to look for or let guide your focus when searching for meaning to the verse/image pair.  The line that fits gives us opal, Dutch, gnomes, and cloud.  The result is from etymology: cloud = clud/clot/clog.  This gives some heavy variation to play with, from cumulus nimbus to large rocks to stopped pipes to dancing shoes made of wood.

This is an idea I had a while back. Wanted to repost with some changes for critique. Verse 10 and image 12. I think the griffin and the crown in the water tells us Kings, Brooklyn. "In the shadow Of the grey giant" Standing under the Soldiers and Sailors monument at the entrance to Prospect Park you are literally in its shadow. "Find the arm that Extends over the slender path" On both sides inside the monument are Lincoln and Grant. Grant's arm is bent while Lincoln's is extended. We can possible say the slender path is the one Lincoln's horse is on in the etching or the path through the monument. Anyhow this makes us look at Lincoln and his arm. Now "find" Lincoln. He is in Prospect Park. "In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound" The monument is surrounded by roads and cars. "Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native" I'm not sure about this. There's possibly a sign referencing natives of the land or maybe we need to break down this line more. There may be a sign entering the park or inside the park as another confirmer to go that way. "The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." I think this refers to Lincoln again and to find him in Prospect Park. "Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more" Once you find Lincoln's statue you use this part of the verse. So decoding the verse correctly is supposed to give us an exact location to dig. There's no denying that for all the verses. So for this one we are to stand in a certain spot and "Take twice as many east steps as the hour". We should follow that exact number and not deviate from the instructions. So I asked myself, why "Take twice as many east steps as the hour OR MORE"? "Or more" can be 1 more step or 50 more steps. That would take us out of the dig area and veer away from precise instructions. So I looked into it. If you stand at the Lincoln statue in Concert Grove and "Take twice as many east steps as the hour" (that being 22 steps due to the 11 o'clock in the pic), you will line up with another statue to the north. That statue just so happens to be Thomas Moore! So I came to the conclusion that this part of the verse is telling us to go east 22 steps from Lincoln OR go east until you line up with Moore (Or more). Considering everyone's steps are different, this could be a reference that we are lined up in the correct spot after taking the steps. "From the middle of one branch Of the v" Following the 22 step/Moore route you will be standing near the middle of one of the walkways in Prospect Park. And conveniently it is one arm of a "V" shaped sidewalk! These sidewalks are also round bricks like the stones in the window of the pic. "Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil" Of all the statues in Concert Grove, most of them are composers. And "Concert" Grove? Sounds like rhapsodic mans soil to me. "Or gaze north Toward the isle of B." An isle is a small island. North of Prospect Park is Belmont Island in the East River. A very small island. Some think this is wrong since you can't actually see the island. But it says to "gaze toward" it not "see" it. I think this is another confirmer that we're in the right location since the island is north of the park. So to sum up, I think we need to dig at the point where we are in line with the Lincoln and Moore statues next to one arm of the V. I could be way off base here but it can't hurt to throw ideas out there right?

I have liked this location too. I think nearer the Lincoln statue border. Grieg is too out in the open so on your map the spot near the middle red dot on your map above would put you in the border and on a corner behind the stonework. Is that then 22 steps from Lincoln?

While I like the tie-ins at the end of the Verse (the V, the Moore statue, the tiles, rhapsodic man's soil, and the isle of B), there are too many things you have "skipped over," in my mind. How is Lincoln "him of Hard word in 3 Vols.":? (As I said above, my guess is that this is a reference to Dickens) The Indies native (I do not see a Hamilton reference around). The whirring sound (helicopter pad?). Simple roots? Not too crazy about the leap from Lincoln's arm to the statue of Lincoln, but okay. Most importantly, as said by wk, there is no way that BP could bury a casque in Prospect Park, even at 3 a.m.  There would always be someone walking around in this area.  If we can get some clue from Cleveland and Chicago, BP needs to have something at his back, so he is not surrounded by open space and can see if someone is coming.  Both were buried near a wall, in a secluded area. I like the crown in the clouds you pointed out.  That could signify Kings or Queens, though.

That map with the statue locations is from a frisbie throwing website and there are reviews on there saying when it is clear. You could say you were looking for your frisbie Here is another website which I think might show the location. The second picture shows some bushes behind a stone wall. hxxp://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigm ... ncertgrove

Here's another Indies native in lower Manhattan:

Very nice find, Merlot. I have searched and searched for any type of plaque or monument mentioning Charles Dickens in New York, but I have come up with nothing so far. There are plenty of writings about him, and one of the more famous biographies of Dickens is John Forster's "The Life of Charles Dickens."  I am mentioning it because it was published in 3 Volumes. hxxp://www.gutenberg.org/files/25851/25851-h/25851-h.htm hxxp://www.amazon.com/Life-Charles-Dickens-I-III-Complete-ebook/dp/B001COV1HY However, John Forster is not a native of New York.  So, although it fits "...still speak of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.," it does not jibe with "the natives..." The only other thing I can think of, as a connection, is the New York Public Library, but that is a stretch.

Am I going out on a limb to include the following when considering the lines find the arm that extends over the slender path ? If we can consider the arm motions as a YMCA, I can find one extending over the slender path.

Egbert wrote:: I have searched and searched for any type of plaque or monument mentioning Charles Dickens in New York, but I have come up with nothing so far. "The architecturally impressive, block-long Bonsecours Market still occupies the site today at 330 Saint-Paul Est; all that remains of the city's first professional theatre is a plaque on one corner of the market, where the theatre stood for nineteen years. The street named for the visiting author has fared no better, for Dickens Lane at the side of Francisco Rasco's Hotel opposite (where the Dickenses stayed for 19 days) disappeared in 1999 to make way for a large-scale condominium project. On the hotel was a plaque commemorating Dickens's visit to Montreal, but it, too, together with items of Dickens memorabilia, has been swallowed by the sands of time." in Montreal

Hirudiniforme wrote:: "The architecturally impressive, block-long Bonsecours Market still occupies the site today at 330 Saint-Paul Est; all that remains of the city's first professional theatre is a plaque on one corner of the market, where the theatre stood for nineteen years. The street named for the visiting author has fared no better, for Dickens Lane at the side of Francisco Rasco's Hotel opposite (where the Dickenses stayed for 19 days) disappeared in 1999 to make way for a large-scale condominium project. On the hotel was a plaque commemorating Dickens's visit to Montreal, but it, too, together with items of Dickens memorabilia, has been swallowed by the sands of time." in Montreal And for anyone subscribing to the Cartier theory, there's an endless supply of that in Montreal, too. I've still got Verse 5/Image 9/Montreal as far as the working theory, but there's a ton of Cartier in Montreal. In Montreal

Double post

Prospect Park sounds quite intriguing. While doing a very brief search on it...I wasn't surprised to come across a name that I have seen so many times during my research on this hunt. That name being Fredrick Law Olmsted. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Law_Olmsted#ABC Take a look at some of his parks in Milwaukee, Boston, Montreal, NY, Chicago, Cleveland, etc.... Unfortunately neither Greek Cultural Gardens nor Grant Park are on this list. I still think he plays a major part in our locations. Just some food for thought

He was probably the most prolific park designer of the late 1800s. I doubt the association is intentional.

Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil In an attempt to avoid the perception that I'm just plucking randomly at words and then misconstruing them in some random direction, this is more of a chunk assessment of three lines that clearly seem to go together. "Look down" is either an instruction to physically see something in the down direction or it's a disassociation from the following lines and taken in a figurative sense where "looking down [on someone]" may be a derogatory sense or value judgement. What is meant by "simple roots"?  Simple is also usable in the derogatory sense, or it may be a standard as in basic verses complex.  Roots offers a larger variety of interpretations.  As I've previously mentioned, I thought it applied to things relating to squares, since a basic square root is the fractional exponent of 1/2 (where n is 2), and becomes higher ordered or complicated as the value of n increases.  Other senses of roots may relate to the use of the word Natives, since both have to do with place of origin.  Yet another sense, most common, would be to do with trees or plants, which rely on their roots in the soil for support and nutrients. What man would be rhapsodic?  I see the popular notion is it's to do with Gershwin, but that's mainly a result of an attempt to play with a New York setting.  It's a functional fit if we have no other real support or clue that creates a reference to a State.  Like Chicago, we had M and B to give us some music composers as a good reference to a nearby building.  Does Gershwin's soil mean Brooklyn or near Ozone Park neighborhood where I use to live, btw?  I'm more invested in an alternate take on rhapsodic as it relates to epic poetry or any poetry with content on legend or larger than life people or events. It's fun to play with these ideas although I'm maintaining a bias on the Stanley Park, Vancouver BC interpretation where I believe it meets the poetic connection, since Pauline Johnson (P.J. initials are in the "X" box in the image) wrote poetry about the Native legends of that area.  I think the Siwash Rock legend in particular is most applicable.  The giant rock is a great Native Indian chief who was cursed by the gods, this is the rhapsodic man IMHO.  The term 'siwash' is derogatory, similar to calling someone a 'homeless bum', but it also means shelter or to camp without a tent, using only the natural canopy of the trees for shelter.  Perhaps this is all too hard to swallow or believe as achievable knowledge without Google.  I'm more of the impression that a person couldn't avoid learning such details if they bother to read the customary tourist pamphlets or interpretive markers and plaques that are established in Stanley Park.  Pauline Johnson is an impressive poet.  I've read a fair amount of her work now and she's no slouch.  I think the simple roots end up belonging to the squares and/or pieces of the three giant checkerboards located beneath the shelter between the children's playground and Pipeline road.  I'm not 100% sure yet how to unravel the final details, but I'm feeling very close.  I should get on with getting updated passports for my family so we can vacation up there with a shovel.

The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. I think if we can figure out these 2 lines, this will get us pretty close to the treasure.  These 2 lines are referring to a specific individual, and there is probably a reference to that individual near the treasure site (a plaque, a monument, or maybe something in 3 parts). Also, the "in 3 Vols." part is very interesting.  It could be referring to the natives speaking in 3 volumes about the person, or it could be referring to the "Hard word" being in 3 volumes.  As an example of this, I explained above that Hard Times by Charles Dickens was written in 3 parts, and also there is a famous biography of Dickens written in 3 parts. I thought of 2 other possibilities.  "Hard word" could be referring to something other than a book, such as lyrics in a song.  Two famous New Yorkers who could both be considered of "Hard word" are John Lennon (A Hard Day's Night) and Bob Dylan (A Hard Rain's a-gonna Fall).  There is a memorial to Lennon in Central Park, but I could not find any other plaque or monument to him in NY.  I couldn't find anything on Dylan, even though he was very famous in the Greenwich Village area. Last thought, for now.  I find it extremely unusual that BP has abbreviated and capitalized volumes.  It was not for the sake of rhyming within the verse - there is no rhyme.  Could it mean something other than a book volume?  A Tennessee Volunteer fan is called a Vol.  "Volume" could refer to sound, not the printed word.  It could also refer to how much space is taken up by something - so maybe there are 3 containers of something in the area.  Also, sometimes crossword puzzle clues give clues as abbreviations because the answer is an abbreviation.  So, a clue might be "footnote abbrev." and the answer is "ibid."  Just throwing things out, since I am "bothered" by the abbreviation.

The Kiwanis International Volunteer Organization remembers Hardings' speech on a granite memorial in Stanley Park.  I think "-ing" on Harding may be considered superfluous to an extent just so the capital H formalizing Hard makes sense.  The number 3 is something I'm not fixed on yet.

Egbert wrote:: It could also refer to how much space is taken up by something - so maybe there are 3 containers of something in the area. Also, think about how you would properly write out the volume of something. Such and such cubic liters or liters cubed.... liters3.

Liters^3

The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols the old vinyl LPs hxxp://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ ... LfEvWg.jpg

How is Nat King Cole of "Hard" word?

Just thought of what "cars abound" could mean! A car ferry.  New York has a few of them, I believe. Here is a link of routes - not sure it includes all car ferry routes, and not sure if all of these routes are for cars. hxxp://www.panynj.gov/commuting-traveling/ferry-transportation.html "you'll often hear a whirring sound." There is the Downtown Manhattan Heliport at the southern tip of Manhattan, near the car ferry and Battery Park: hxxp://goo.gl/maps/MgCbl There are other helicopter pads in New York, but I have not yet done the research as to whether there are any others near a car ferry. If you recall, Battery Park has a number of interesting monuments, including immigration-related, Peter Minuit, and a bird reminiscent of Image 12. hxxp://www.thebattery.org/the-battery/monuments/

Egbert, I think it has to do with some kind of mechanical thing that is on a route.  The use of the words often and whirring seems like it best describes something that is reoccuring and the sound doesn't have to be caused by the whirring itself, just that the implicated object is audible and it has a circuitous path or makes routine rounds.  A ferry works.  A miniature train works.  One of those kiddie carousels in a playground works, but only if the kids are making gleeful noises or it's squeaky.  A roller coaster.  Even an elevator would work, since it goes up and comes back down. This talk about Vol. has me thinking about verse 8's "View the three stories of Mitchell".  Maybe the three stories are the equivalent of parts of a book, or a volume.  The other lines that talk about "at a distance in time and space" are basically pointing out dimensions.  Maybe I'll jump over to that thread to chew on that idea some more.

Egbert wrote:: How is Nat King Cole of "Hard" word? sorry, did not mean NKC, HARD WORD...the old vinyl LPs in 3 Vols.......NKC just happen to be vol3 hxxp://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ ... LfEvWg.jpg

I think this is the place. There are lots of steps to count. You can see 5 miles away. Lots of tree roots apparently. Description says "... peace and isolation..." Unfortunately the Google Street Tricycle did not go there. It is just further on into the park from the Concert Grove if you enter from East. hxxp://untappedcities.com/2013/01/24/un ... kout-hill/

Maybe the woman in the image is the "grey giant". The verse tells us to look "in the shadow" which is Prospect Park. So maybe we need to look for the arm that extends to narrow it down. A bridge? Something over a path? I like my Concert Grove idea but I'm keeping an open mind.

I was looking at bridges before I found Lookout Hill. Look down and see simple roots could be referring to the low down "nature carvings" in the stonework. There was one back near the Lincoln statue that I found but not enough resolution. Look down could also be from a bridge. There is one called Cleftridge near Concert Grove which has a carving. Also a good place to hide. I found this a good description: hxxp://forgotten-ny.com/2001/08/the-bri ... pect-park/

Hi folks, I found my way here from the Something Awful thread, which is all-but-defunct since the abolition of rules in the General BS forum there has made the place ... interesting and inhospitable to that kind of discussion. Being from southwest CT, the presumed P12/V10/NYC combo has been on my mind, and I want to float an idea by all of you that a cursory search doesn't show has been discussed. Whether I'm right or wrong (probably wrong,) I'd just like your opinions and feedback. The first paragraph is just backstory about why I started looking for verse matches. A few weeks ago, I was walking around the capitol building in Hartford CT and noticed a couple of things. First, the birds on the flagpoles looked kind of/sort of like the bird in picture 12. My phone was dead so I couldn't look anything up, and looking at the few pictures now it doesn't seem to be such a good match; but the beaks and plumage are similar looking up from ground level. The statues of the women around the dome of the capitol as well as the neoclassical statues on the CT Supreme Court building ( img ) were similar to picture 12. The Supreme Court Building also has that neoclassical design with Beaux-Arts arched windows that we see in the painting. In fact, between the general neoclassical, neoclassical Romanesque revival, and neoclassical Beaux-Arts architecture, visual similarities were everywhere around me. It was later pointed out to me that the Colt Armory ([] img [/u]) has a nice blue onion dome on top of it. I walked down into Bushnell Park and whether you look at the capitol building or the Travelers Tower you are In the shadow of the grey giant. I walked a couple of laps around the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Arch, which is over a slender path (a small one-way road in the middle of downtown) and what do you know? on one side of the bas relief on the frieze directly above the center of the arch was a man on horseback with an arm extended ( img ) and on the other side was a woman with both arm extended ( img .) So there I was In the shadow of the grey giant, having found the arm(s) that extend over the slender path. It was not summer, therefore I did not hear a whirring sound since the carousel only a few feet away from the arch only operates from mid-May to mid-October and it was late October. Cars did abound, as I was alongside a busy road downtown. No signs nearby spoke of Indies native, but maybe a few hundred feet away is Corning Fountain ( img ), a tribute to the Indians (nowhere in The Secret did Preiss seem concerned with using politically correct terms!) native to the area. The natives still speak of him of hard words in 3 vols. Noah Webster is native to the city, having been born and raised in West Hartford, and had released two volumes of his dictionary when he died, plus a posthumous publication of the appendix that he was working on at the time of his death. I'm sort of at a dead end about where to go from here. I'd appreciate any feedback you may have.

Really great stuff, Ian! Since "rhapsodic man's soil" seems to be the final marker, is there some grove or memorial to Liszt, Gershwin, or someone named George or Franz? Less likely, something Bohemian, for the Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody." "Simple roots" could also be a further musical reference. Just did some Google research and found that there's a bust of Liszt at the Morgan Memorial, very close to Bushnell Park. Not sure that that helps though, since I assume the sculpture is indoors.

It would be so easy if the bandstand in Bushnell Park was around in 1982. Sadly, it hasn't. Going strictly by the musical definition of "rhapsodic," the first musician with a Hartford connection I can think of is Ray Gilbert, but there are a whole bunch. The water theme of picture 12 doesn't fit well with Hartford, though. There used to be a river running through Bushnell Park, but it was rerouted long before the book was published.

Also in keeping with the water theme, the "isle of B" is problematic for Hartford, unless we're looking for a traffic island or some other non-obvious implementation.

treetops wrote:: Also in keeping with the water theme, the "isle of B" is problematic for Hartford, unless we're looking for a traffic island or some other non-obvious implementation. This has been one of my big stopping points. Every time I look at Hartford and get excited about something I find, I tell myself "if you're so sure, why can't you find an isle of anything?" When I came up with the Hartford idea, I threw it at a bunch of people who know the area and asked them for ideas. One got really into it, and naturally he went straight back to NYC for image 12, verse 10. I'm not sure whether I should post it here, the image thread, or its own thread, but I get the feeling that the people working on this read every thread, so I'll just put it here. I searched and only found a couple of references to the park from 2003 and 2008, so I think it's worth a fresh look. Here's the Google Document he wrote out with his ideas and confidence level (for someone diving headfirst into it, he did a really good job of evaluating how sure he is.) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jww ... &forcehl=1 In the shadow of the grey giant -Statue of Liberty or Verrazano Narrows Bridge (confidence low) Find the arm that Extends over the slender path -Verrazano Narrows spans the slender/narrow path (confidence high) In summer you'll often hear a whirring sound -Helicopters? Boats? (no confidence specified) Cars abound -It's a bridge in NYC. Cars are everywhere (confidence medium) Although the sign nearby Speaks of indies native -Fort Hamilton [Alexander Hamilton is from the West Indies] is on the east side of the bridge (confidence high) The natives still speak of him of hard words in 3 vols -"Hard words" are words with 3 or more syllables. John Paul Jones has 3 syllables, JPJ also served the Russians for a Russian tie-in (confidence low - this is a stretch.) Take twice as many steps east as the hour Or more -22 steps? Curiously, there are 22 cables between the eastern tower of the V-N bridge and the east end. (no confidence specified) From the middle branch of the V -V = Verrazano Narrows Bridge OR the north end of the park could be the inverted V, and starting in the middle of the west branch, take 22 steps east (confidence medium) Look down And see simple roots -Eugene Dynkin discovered the mathematical concept of "simple roots" and he's Russian (low confidence - this is a stretch and seems to have not ties to the location) In Rhapsodic man's soil -JPJ once said "I have not yet begun to fight, which sounds Rhapsodic [non-musical definition] to me. (confidence medium) Or gaze north Toward the Isle of B -Liberty Island used to be called Bedloe's Island (confidence med. - a number of islands in the area used to start with "B") Images (links for full size) hxxp://i.imgur.com/GydU0Bl.jpg hxxp://i.imgur.com/9P0rII8.jpg Verrazano Narrows Bridge. I did a quick google image search and this does not appear to be a common bridge design. hxxp://i.imgur.com/DBbh7Bb.png hxxp://i.imgur.com/IKrytEz.png I looked at many windows from many buildings, and this was the only one that had the same segments of the picture. And it’s from the cathedral below The domes used to be pale green (they’re copper). They were replaced recently. This Cathedral is in brooklyn but quite a distance from John Paul Jones park This monument is a few blocks away from John Paul Jones park on the wedge where 5th splits off from 4th Squint I think this indicates where the casque is buried. Find something that looks like this in the park and that is where to dig. From what I can tell using Google and Bing maps, this is the only rectangular monument in the park. When viewed from the side, it has the same shape as the picture. Go back up to the map, where the purple arrow is pointing. It is pointing exactly on the side of this monument, the far side in this picture. __________________ I asked if he was OK with me sharing it here and he would appreciate it. I think it was someone here who said "I wouldn't dig there, but I'd watch you do it" and that's how I feel about this solution. If the monument was a perfect match, I'd be convinced, but I have my reservations. We'd love any feedback and criticism you have to offer.

IanH84 wrote:: hxxp://i.imgur.com/9P0rII8.jpg I can't speak for anyone else, but it would seem the Ellis Island Ferry Building bird statues are a much better match than the Chrysler Building gargoyle, down to the tongue: This is the Ferry Building: The fact that the ferry slip on Ellis Island has red brick trim is a big clue for me considering it matches the red in outline in the image.

Here's an interesting location... hxxp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8310/8005173998_79aefe7349_z.jpg

I don't know what to make of it and haven't really looked into it, but I just noticed that the line, "Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.", is a lipogram ( hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogram ). Notice that the line is constrained to 3 vowels (o, i, a), and avoids the letter "e" by using a number and an abbreviation instead.

Been working on this one a bit. There are some original/good posts early in this thread. Did a little "digging" to expound on a few this past week. I think i might have found "the sign nearby" that "speaks of Indies native." What's the most accepted interpretation of that line right now? Also, I'd mentioned it before, but does anyone else see the 7 and the 5 in the lady in Image 12's arm/shoulder area?

I like the Walloon monument in Battery Park even though it doesn't go with any of my other ideas. I like that it has the lion/bear symbols on it from the water in the image.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Been working on this one a bit. There are some original/good posts early in this thread. Did a little "digging" to expound on a few this past week. I think i might have found "the sign nearby" that "speaks of Indies native." What's the most accepted interpretation of that line right now? Also, I'd mentioned it before, but does anyone else see the 7 and the 5 in the lady in Image 12's arm/shoulder area? Well, no responses, so I guess I'll just share. The sign that speaks of Indies native, I believe, is the 1976 sign on Fraunces Tavern, and this is confusingly nearby-ish (half mile):

It's a great sign, though I still don't see how you can look north towards the Isle of B this far north...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: It's a great sign, though I still don't see how you can look north towards the Isle of B this far north... My guess right now is that the clock has nothing to do with the hunt, it's just a good (confusing) find. The "Indies" sign, however, I believe, is the sign that is "nearby." Interestingly, running north along Broad St., I can find most of the images from the picture (eagle, woman, window, etc.). What makes you think the "isle (not capitalized) of B." is an actual island? Have you seen the subway sign down the stairs of the Brooklyn Tunnel ventilation building subway stairs? The one next to the NYANA (Russian ref.?)?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: What makes you think the "isle (not capitalized) of B." is an actual island? Mainly the picture of it... It would be hard to convince me this wasn't Shore Road Park. But I'll admit it seems very plausible that BP was aware of this plaque. It's the best fit for that line, just, not any of the rest of it.