Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. ============================= some thoughts and notes on Verse 3: ...letters lit by lamplight, "in truth, be free" I found lyrics from "Ode on Washington's birthday" By Mrs. Dr. Macgowan. "Dedicated to the Ladies' Relief Association, for the opening of their Fair, February 22d, 1864." 1) I have not yet found WHERE this fair took place. 2) I'm thinking that the letters could be engraved at a location: -a) on the site of the fair -b) on a Washington memorial -c) something to do with the lyricist 3) or the phrase has nothing to do with these lyrics: Burst the fetters of oppression, Let our land in truth be free , And no longer Slavery's curse Blast the land of Liberty. On to victory! brothers, on! Shout the name of Washington. Another poem "Freedom", a long poem with a section "The Spirit Voice; or Liberty Call to the Disfranchised" (sic) NEWYORK, JULY20, 1841 The captive in his hut, with watchful ear, Awaits the sweet triumphant songs to hear, That shall proclaim the glorious jubilee When crippled thousands shall in truth be free . Come! rouse ye brothers, rouse! The rest of the verse makes me think of a clock, with "Thucydides North of Xenophon" indicating a position of hands with names on them.  Or perhaps a moving display, like a calendar, because the rest of the verse implies that the way will be lit only at a certain time on a certain day.  (Maybe the 18th day of every month, at either noon or midnight)

Focus on the last 4 lines of this V and you will see.... - nlad - ase

It seems my intent may be being questioned here so I wont beat around the bush anymore. my above post ending meant "1 if by land, 2 if by sea". "Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free." seems to me to be referring to Paul Reveres ride warning of the British.  If this is the case, we are looking at either Lexington MA or Boston MA where the actual church he signalled from still stands. simply my opinion however...

Unknown: "Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free." seems to me to be referring to Paul Reveres ride warning of the British.  If this is the case, we are looking at either Lexington MA or Boston MA where the actual church he signalled from still stands. I think you nailed that one on the head, Mr. Fox. "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction" Paul Revere's House is on Boston's North End, on North Street, in North Square.  The church in which the lanterns were hung is Christ Church a.k.a. Old North Church.  I don't know what Thucydides or Xenophon is referring to (sculptures? paintings?) --- they are both ancient historians --- but my guess is that Thucydides IS north of Xenophon, since Paul Revere's House and the Church have many references to "North," and since the verse doesn't say what to do if Thucydides is NOT north of Xenophon.  The only question is where you need to be standing when you take the 5 steps.  Also, the phrase, "In the area of his direction" is strange.  If the verse wanted you to simply take 5 steps north, then it would read "In his direction," but it doesn't say that. "A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls" The Prudential Building in Boston could be considered a green tower of lights.  Again, we have awkward wording here.  "In the middle section"?  No idea what that could mean.  "The coliseum with metal walls" could be a stadium --- the Fleet Center? Any thoughts?

Thanks egg  :) I too am a little stumped on the 2 greeks.  Also, the 5 steps in the area of his direction.....Area?  sounds like geomotry to me.  Your green tower of lights is located in Copley SQUARE.  The Boston Public Library is also located in Copley Square...what better place to find ancient greeks than in a library? Also, WHOSE direction are we taking the 5 steps?..Mr Thucydides, Mr. Xenophon or Mr. Revere? or...maybe we are breaking down the V's incorrectly.  There seems to be a flow when reading them, but, maybe we should pause between lines 3 & 4.  Do you understand?  Maybe it isnt "Take 5 steps in the area of his direction". I'm glad you also found the P building as a possible "tower of green lights".  I also found that but for some reason have been trying to talk myself out of it for some time.  Here is a nice shot of Boston from atop the P building:  hxxp://www.keshava.com/boston.htmlIt shows a stadium ("coliseum"?), a river (line 10 "face the water") and a large park (what better place to bury a treasure). Or the other way:  hxxp://www.merseycards.co.uk/bostoncards/cards/pruview.html  ------   more water and another park.

Oops, looks like I should gather all of my info before posting. One other possibility.  This shows the front of the Boston Public Library. hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg More water and stairs...."back to the stairs" In this closeup of the library:  hxxp://www.grendelvs.inc.new.net/bobames/images/SN03.jpgnote the 2 statues flanking the doors.  I have yet been able to locate specific names of these but 1 represents Art and the other represents Science.  Were Thucydides & Xenophon artists and scientists? maybe just more rambling but maybe not.....

I see this different, not boston T and D are greeks from Athens, one a diplomat, scholar, the other a soldier / horseman. Coliseum - tower - letters - this smacks of a University to me. Which universities have statues of t and d ?

Good theory Falcon, but how can you discount the last few lines of the V?  Aren't they obviously referring to Paul Revere?

Here is a link to a good site about the Boston Public Library.  It includes a nice closeup of the statues I mentioned above.. too bad it may not be Thucy or Xeno. hxxp://www.virtualtourist.com/m/tt/f0a8/

"If Thucydides is North of Xenophon" I believe this may be an astronomy reference to give a direction to face. Is there a star or galaxy or cosmic grouping named after Xenophon and Thucydides?

Check out: hxxp://www.giga-usa.com/gigaweb1/quotes ... inx001.htm "Thucydides at Boston, Xenophon at New York" There are more obvious references to Boston though later in the verse.

Any still working on this?...I wonder if any cluse are in teh book..besides verse, pics, and the poems at front with match gems..ect.

robp, I believe there is a little more to it than what robh provided but I think he is on the right trail.  If we were to use this quote by Homer......Thucydides (Boston) IS north of Xenophon (NY).  So, where does that leave us?  Does anyone know what is directly between Boston & NY?  I still find it hard to discount the last lines of the verse leading to Boston.  It seems soooo obvious.

ooops, wasnt Homer  :-X

hmmmm  :o ...can anyone guess where our good friend Horace Mann was born?....... hxxp://oasis.harvard.edu/html/gra00039.html

The quote is from "Letter to Horace Mann"

a few observations "in the middle section" could refer to Middlesex County Mass., which Paul Revere rode through: hxxp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... sachusetts hxxp://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/maps/m ... s_map.html "the area of his direction" does sound like the North End, but could also be Westford or Weston (in Middlesex County) if "his" refers to Revere. Fox - I think you may have posted a link to the wrong [1844-1868] Horace Mann.  His more famous father [1796-1859] was also born in Mass. and is discussed here: hxxp://www.cals.ncsu.edu/agexed/aee501/mann.html There are schools named after him all over the country. I'll be in Boston in early June and have friends who own shovels.

i talked to fox on this one too.  had the same idea about Middle section being middlesex, which is just north of downtown boston.  i'll actually be out there may 19th thru the 23rd to visit a friend and do some looking around.  anyone have a starting place??  im thinking the Boston Commons and the freedom trail and take it from there.  Might drop by Revere's house and check that out, also might go by North Point Park, i beleive its in Middlesex and near to Fenway (coliseum made of metal, or whatever the verse says)

Just wondering - I reread Johann's great walk through of the Chicago find and noticed that the Jackson St. was found by the clue 10. Could Thucy and Xeno be refernces to 20 and 24, perhaps 20th and 24th streets or avenues? I am not familiar with this area - someone who is? wilhouse

thats not a bad idea, but heres the thing.  that first line "if Thucy....north of Xep"  its a logic statement, like in computer programming.  If that statement is true, then you take 5 steps in that direction.  Well, what if that first statement isnt true??  then we dont take 5 step?? likely not, so thats why i think that the first two lines are just location clues to the starting place. everyone understand ??

Loph, well it would be easy to determine.  if 20th st is north of 24th st (or ave or blvd or whatever), then you're done.  If someone knows this location well enough to check it out on mapquest, we can figure it out. wilhouse

I have to agree with you loph.  I think whatever Thuc & Xen are referencing, Thuc WILL be north of Xen.  The only other thing I can think of is if Thuc IS NOT north of Xen, then do the exact opposite "take 5 steps away from his direction." another possible starting place may be the Boston Public library as I stated to you earlier loph.  Go do a little digging into the 2 green statues flanking the entrance.  I posted long, long ago that I thought maybe they represented Thuc & Xen.  Take a compass and see if one is north of the other.  There is also a nice fountain nearby..."face the water".  possible explanation of "all the letters are here to see": could also be referring to the library......a man of letters is one who specializes in literature or writing as a profession...also one of knowledge.  Maybe the library has a large display of all the letters (men of) to see. good luck in your quest loph....keep us all posted !!

I don't think the Boston Public library statues are X & T, even in symbolism.  One statue is supposed to represent Art and the other Science -- both our guys were historians.

Please consider this theory: 1.  Start at Thucydides.  His name is carved on the front of the Boston Public Library with lots of other "men of letters" (a la fox's 5/8 posting).  You're standing on Dartmouth St. at Copley Square. 2.  Go 5 blocks ("five steps") north ("...Thucydides is North"..."In the area of his direction").  Count just the real named streets and ignore the tiny alleys in between and one glorified median. 3.  Now you're very looking at Storrow Drive, which runs along the Charles River.  Just beyond Storrow is the Charles River Esplanade ("Face the water"). 4.  Just downriver on the Esplanade is the Hatch Shell ("Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls").  It's like a shell-shaped bandstand or theater with a steel skin, built in 1941.  I'm not sure if we're supposed to focus on the shell itself, or just being close to Storrow Drive ("Near those who pass..." ). 5.  Either way, the water's just north of you ("Face the water") and the river's lower than the land, so there's gotta be stairs around ("Your back to the stairs"). 6.  AOL CityGuide says the Shell "features big bronze letters across the lower front and back spelling out the names of dozens of the world's foremost composers...", so maybe this is related to ("All the letters Are here to see"). 7.  If the "green tower of lights" is either the Pru or John Hancock, then maybe you can see one or both.  Heck, when you were at the library you were literally standing right between them. Thoughts?

Not that it matters a whole lot, but I didn't mean to put the frowny face in, or to bold that text.  I just typed 3 question marks to indicate uncertainty.  Inexperience with this stuff. Sorted, you just tick the Disable Smilies box. Mark

I'm glad we have newer members of this board bringing this thread to the forfront.  This V seems to be the most obvious V leading us to a city.  It seems pretty certain this IS Boston with the last few lines referring to Paul Revere.  Maybe we should all once again focus on this one and see if we have or will come up with new directions.  Only if we were certain of a P with this one.....

and you can research that "coliseum with metal walls" which existed in Boston back in 1982 but which was recently demolished -- if indeed the verse is being literal about a coliseum...

That was the Boston Garden, replaced by the Fleet Center in 1995.

hey all, havent been around much do to working and school, but ive been trying to drop in on occasion to see if anyone has found anything new.  anywho, when i was at the Public Library, i never saw the word Thucydides carved anywhere.  In fact, the library area was one of the worst places i looked.  It didnt have much at all.  anyway, my best friend from home just got accepted into Med School at Tufts in boston, so now i have a reason to head back there.  i'll probably go sometime in october.  and i think i have a great place to look:  the public gardens.  people can actually rent these plots out, and plant anything they want.  i had driven by it and not even given it a second thought, but then it dawned on me, that maybe Byron Priess just bought one of the plots back in 1982, buried it there.  its all kind of condensed but theres definately plenty of room for it and maybe also a marker in the plot, possibly something thats in the P for Boston.  so anyway, im pulling my book back out, im on the case yet again, and hopefully this will be my last trip out there for this frickin thing.

Hey loph, I've never actually seen Thucydides' name there either.  My "confirmation" source on it was the reference desk at the Boston Public Library. I had to be in Boston for work a couple of months ago (prior to learning about this hunt), and saw all the names in the window panels. With our subject being a Greek historian, I figured he was a good candidate for inclusion, so on 7/16 I called the library.  The Reference Librarian asked me to call him back at 2:00, stating that he would go check on one of his breaks.  When I called back, he said that Thucydides was there. I may have erred in using the term "front".  That's the face of the building that I originally saw, and I may have carried it over into my description.

I'm pretty convinced the verse is associated with Boston, although Paul Revere rode from Charleston, right by Boston.  But he did ride on April 18 at midnight and his signals were lamplights.  So the bottom verses seem to indicate Boston. I, like Fox, looked right at the Boston Public Library, believing the greek authors would be in the library (which they are, I checked).  To me, the verse is indicating that the Prudential building (green at night) needs to be lined up in the middle of the library.  The P building is directly behind the library. All signs seem to point to Copley Square, somewhere by Trinity church.  I think the Greek Authors might also indicate the church, since it is designed in the shape of a Greek Cross. Check out this site for Trinity Church: hxxp://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/bost ... nrich.html The most puzzling thing is the coliseum.  Initially I thought of Fenway Park, a modern day coliseum which is nearby.  This still may be the case.  But in the early 1900's Harvard used to have an old Football Colisuem (right before the 'new' one was built--which is the oldest stadium in the US).  Don't know the exact location, and don't think it is around, so how could anyone pass by it?  But Feway is brick, not metal, so this doesn't quite fit either. Can anybody in or around Boston, go and check the area out? ABQRAM

ooh, I like the Greek tie in with the Church.  Nice one.  The BPL still seems an obvious point in this trail.  "All the letters to see" still seem to refer to the authors (or men of letters) in the library. The last of this V seems obviously Boston and many other things fit...let's find that Coliseum! col·i·se·um also col·os·se·um    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kl-sm) n. A large amphitheater for public sports events, entertainment, or assemblies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Medieval Latin Colisum, an amphitheater in Rome, Italy, variant of Latin Colossum, from neuter of colossus, gigantic, from colossus, huge statue. See colossus.] colossus is a large statue....any Large Statues and not arenas around the area? also..let's find that P that goes with the V  :P

Fox, I know you are trying to tie in image 11 with verse 3.  I don't see much tie in really, BUT there is a castle at BU, which is nearby....  Fenway is right there as well.  I really think it is in this area. ABQRAM

In Boston, just north-northeast of the Hatch Shell (coliseum? mentioned by Pine_Tree earlier) there's a Revere St .  I've modified a map of the area to show the Boston Public Library, Hatch Shell, and Revere St.   I'll post it here once I have a place to host it.

Is there a school next to where you are looking? could the clue read: All the letters Are here to "c" meaning abc, or an elementary school? wilhouse

Here's the map... I'll see if I can find a school nearby. - Jambone

hey Ram,  I am not trying to tie in a specific P with this V just yet.  I am simply trying to locate some of the items mentioned in the V itself.  I am still wavering among several P's and just cant nail one down yet.

Unknown: Fenway is right there as well.  I really think it is in this area. Maybe we are trying too hard to find the typical Roman Coliseum.  Look at the 1st entry of the definition I posted above: col·i·se·um also col·os·se·um    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kl-sm) n. A large amphitheater for public sports events, entertainment, or assemblies. Fenway sure fits that bill.  The confusing part, which we may all be reading wrong is the following line "with metal walls" Just keep in mind the post I made long ago about the "flow" of the lines in the V's and that we may be reading them and joining sentences by how we think they sound good.  Maybe we just need to pass Fenway...then there will be something else large with metal walls.....?.....

My take on "all the letters..." was the idea that the Hatch Shell and it's associated structure is decorated with very large lettering (maybe big bronze letters, not sure) spelling out the names of composers and musicians. Pine

How about a post office?

Here are some pictures of the Hatch Shell.  The names of famous composers are in pretty large letters along the front below the stage.  Don't know that this is what the verse is pointing to though. hxxp://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/545/990619hatch/9906hatch.htm#pics

Unknown: Is there a school next to where you are looking? could the clue read: All the letters Are here to "c" meaning abc, or an elementary school? wilhouse There's an Advent School (elementary) very near by, on Brimmer St. just south of Pinckney St.  So it's about 1.5 blocks south of Revere St.  Don't know how old the school is though. - Jambone "The Boston gig has been cancelled..." "What?" "Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it though, it's not a big college town."

Perhaps the C refers to a street beginning with C.  There are several on the map.  Or a pun on "sea"?

Also, if we may be referring to the Hatch Shell, dont forget about the letters (musical notes) ABCDEFG.  Well, then the clue should have read "All the letters are here to hear." (not see). hmm

was just recently discussing this with my buddy (Abqram) and he told of something else he kind of remembers but did not post for fear of irrelavency.  I quickly told him nothing is irrelevant in this darn hunt so here it is. We may need someone who is either from Boston or has a very good memory about a trip there to corroborate this.  While interning there many years ago, he specifically remembers a nightclub called the Coliseum which was not far from both Fenway Park and Copley Square.  He remembers that inside of the club, there was a giant upturned hand where the dj's booth was (dont think the hand is in any of the P's...he just remembered it).  Both he and I have googled and googled but can not seem to locate any mention of this Coliseum in Beantown.  Was it there anyone?....&....if so, could this be our "Coliseum"?  ??? I did locate this: hxxp://ypng.infospace.com/_1_91YUYF0437 ... SRC%3DInfo space%26N%3Dcoliseum%26T%3DBoston%26S%3DMA%26R%3DN%26AL%3D%26LID%3D0093713005%26 display%3D1&kcfg=ypus&ypinsp=0&searchtype=all&fromform=qsearch&qhqn=coliseum&qn= coliseum&qc=Boston&qs=MA&qk=15&recid=0093713005⊤=internal ...which is near the area but I am quite sure this is not the one he refers to.

I took a quick look at the map posted and noticed a "Back Street".  Could this correspond with the line "Your back to the stairs."?  Hmmm..  Someone in the area, please scope the area! ABQRAM

That does make sense.  If you look at the map, Back St runs parallel to the Charles River for quite a ways.  "Face the water"  Now, where are the stairs?  Are there any streets in the area called Stair St....Step Ave....etc...?

could there be stairs leading down to the river? I know there are in New Orleans and there are near the rivers I lived by in other states. wilhouse

Hey Wilhouse, that gives me an idea.  Maybe we are reading these lines all wrong.  Instead of "Back to the stairs" = bum, butt, rear-end, posterior, etc.. to the stairs   ------   maybe it means Take Back St to the stairs.  Anyone familiar with Boston...are there any famous stairs nearby?  or just maybe a simple set of stairs leading to the river? Could we be onto something?  It has been awhile since anything important has come up...maybe this will lead to the discovery of casque #3.

The more I look at this V, I like the idea of somewhere quite close to Fenway Park.  The "green tower" {Prudential Tower} is still quite nearby......The "coliseum" sure fits the baseball park...."Feel at home" might refer to homeplate...."Face the water" the park is right near the river or there is what appears to be a nice sized park called {our favorite casque burial site} southwest of Fenway with a small creek/river running thru it. (check out my extremely long URL a few posts above).  Here is another aerial photo showing both Fenway and the park:  hxxp://www.skypic.com/boston/17-3142.jpg ....check out the name of the bay  :) looks like the park is the Back Bay Fens state park :  hxxp://www.fenwayculture.org/images/muddyriversm.jpg

Here is an image of the odd shape on the wall (Image 3) overlayed on a map of The Back Bay Fens Park.  Looks like a pretty good match. Also, there are two baseball diamonds in the park ("Feel at home") and gardens.

hey bclews, that is a pretty nice match you found there.  coincidence...?.....hmm...maybe not.  Now, if only we can find a match for the war memorial in the park (the asian fan looking thing).  There is the Clemente ballpark there...homeplate.  Could we finally be zeroing on the next casque or are we trying too hard to make things fit?  Hopefully the former....

OK, I decided to take a close look at picture 3, thanks to bclews, and perhaps I'm reaching, but here goes:  If you look to the right side of the picture, it appears to be a partioal map of freedom trail (starts with a check mark right underneath the left side of the window).  Following the trail, there is a cross.  I used that as a 'marker' and discovered that it matches up with Paul Revere's house.  I looked further and found out that on the freedom trail is the Granary Burying Ground.  Guess who's buryied there?  Yup, Paul Revere.  Ok, the Granary Burying ground has an imposing entrance.  Check it out:  hxxp://www.bizkard.com/freedom/granery/index.shtml If you flip picture 2 upside down, doesn't it look ALOT like the entrance?  Then I took a look a Paul Revere's headstone:  hxxp://www.thenewsletter.dyndns.org/oldgranary.htm  Boy, it looks like the thing the knight is on. The problem is, can someone bury something in an old cemetary like the granary?  Don't really think so. Also, while I was doing some research, I saw that the old Boston Public Latin School is on the freedom trail.  It was torn down, but a plaque still remains:  hxxp://www.insidegretchenshead.com/images/pictures/boston_april02/photos/photo_23.html There are "all the letters are here to see"  But don't see where they could bury the treasure nearby.  Further research is warrented.  Any help from the Bostonians out there? ABQRAM

Sorry, its hxxp://www.bizkard.com/freedom/granary/index.shtml

sorry again, it's hxxp://thenewsletter.dyndns.org/oldgranary.htm

Here's another view of the tombstone: hxxp://masstraveljournal.com/scrapbook/ ... os1_4.html the plaque sure looks similar to the window, doesn't it? and yes, when you flip Image 3 upside down around the window looks just like that entrance way. With Paul Revere's ride being at midnight on April 18, this tie in is too firm. Where are our Bean Towners when we need them? loph, aren't you close by? someone needs to take a look at all this stuff. I think this is very close. wilhouse

The greek authors are key--It tells us where to start.  I think the treasure is definately buried somewhere along the freedom trail.  Xenophon wrote Anbasis, which was a continuation of the history of Thucydides.  X marks the spot?  THe place is norty of the starting point.  Who's got freedom trail fever? Abqram

hey all, glad to see theres some new developments on this V and P.  I actually live in Indiana, but was out in boston earlier in the year to visit a couple friends and to work on the hunt.  I can safely say that its not on the Freedom Trail.  I walked the whole thing while i was there, which is actually the second time ive traversed it, and there was no place to hide a casque.  The only grassy areas on the whole trail are cemetarys and i beleive in the rules it says they wont be in cemetaries.  And since ive visited the sites of both "found" casques, and can tell you that they are tucked away in places that arent highly "traveled", meaning, Byron had to hide these things in a way so that a passerby either couldnt see him, or wouldnt think anything of it.  Example, the chicago casque was buried in a part of Grant Park kind of shielded Byron from people walking by.  Im assuming he hid them at night for added secrecy, but in a park that size, there still would be people out walking, so the shielded spot helps.  As for the cleveland casque, it was buried on the opposite side of the wall where most people would be standing and looking. Also, if you were standing on the "main" side of the wall looking at it, and you were to turn 180 degrees, you would be stairing straight at residential neighborhood nor more than 50 feet from you.  so Byron had to hide it on the other side where there wasnt a lot of "traffic."  Ok, with all that said, i really dont think its on the Freedom Trail, since its a high traffic area with VERY few places to hide.  So it will definately be in one of the parks nearby.  I checked the entire Commons, but i could not find any of the visual confriming clues that have been seen in the other 2 casques, so i think we can count out the Commons.  The Back Bay Fens park is definately on my list as well as the Public Gardens.  The good thing about the gardens is that people can "rent" plots of land to plant vegetables, flowers, shrubs, etc.  And that would make a GREAT place to bury a treasure.  You "rent" the land year after year, or maybe Byron just bought a plot out (they arent big, maybe like 6 feet by 6 feet).  so he gets a plot, buries the treasure, and puts a visual confirmer there (maybe the pedastal that the statue is on)  Anyway, i'll be going back out there in late May (after the ground thaws) for a wedding, so i'll poke around some more and hopefully by then we'll have a place narrowed down.  With "A Treasure's Trove" out, i'll be shifting more time toward that, but i'll check back in from time to time with any new info ive got. so take it easy all, and happy hunting !

I'm a couple of hours away, but I'll go if we can narrow it down a bit more.  I'll definitely stop by the Back Bay Fens Park to look around (and take photos). I've been considering the Old Granary for a while.  It was once known at the Middle Burying Ground ("In the middle section"). Any other specifics?

Fox, I think you may have mentioned this before.  I think there is a link from one key to another.  If not a direct link from one to the next then perhaps a common thread.  There are a couple of instances, but the one that comes immediately to mind is this photo from the Cleveland (?) find.

loph, i like your ideas on where (& when BP) probably buried the casques....but.......there is NOWHERE on the trail fitting any of your criteria?  How about a nice secluded park a block off of the trail?  Maybe we follow the trail until we see the (?), take a left and hit the park.  I really like abq's finds. abq, nice work.  now for a dumb question..  does the trail end up anywhere near the Fens? as of now, this park seems to fit both loph's theory as well as the 2 found locations quite nicely. yes bclews, I did post that some time back and your photo of the Cleveland wall is precisely what I was referring to.  :o and look, Xenophon is north of Thucydides.  hmmm, is there anything (or anyone ie...herodotus) in Boston near our possible sites?  Maybe there are clues in other V's/P's leading to the next site?  ......  or would that be too complicated to set up?

I've been reading the discussion on image 3 and alot of people are leaning toward Boston as well.  As far as linking verse 3 with image 3, the Granery burial ground is adjacent to Park Street Chuch, on Park and Tremont.  This area bumps up to Boston Common.  Could the treasure be buried just outside the burial ground in the commons? ABQRAM

In trying to answer my own question, it looks to me that the burial grounds are adjacent to the common.  I found this site that shows the backside of the burial ground:  hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston2004/Jul-03.asp  Look at the wall:  all the letters for you to see!  And it seems to me that it is pretty secluded.  Further examination of the common reveals a baseball park nearby.  Loph, what do you think? ABQRAM

In trying to answer my own question, it looks to me that the burial grounds are adjacent to the common.  I found this site that shows the backside of the burial ground:  hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston2004/Jul-03.asp  Look at the wall:  all the letters for you to see!  And it seems to me that it is pretty secluded.  Further examination of the common reveals a baseball park nearby.  Loph, what do you think? ABQRAM

thats a good find on that website, it looks as if they've taken pics periodically on the whole trail  (i did the same thing ) anyway, i did check the commons pretty thoroughly for any sort of visual clue, but came up empty.  and good call on the baseball diamond being in the commons, i got really excited when i saw that there.  the statue of Horace Mann in front of the state house also got me excited but i still couldnt piece it all together.  as for it being in the burying grounds, im doubting it.  if you look closely at the wall, you can see quite a few "doors" that kind of look like vents or something. well, those are doors to the crypts right there.  the pic that has a close up of the wall with writing on it (says George), is a pic of the "headstone" right above each crypt door.  so burying it around there has to be illegal or something; i could be wrong though.  im still liking the Back Bay Fens area the best, it seems to fit the verse the best.

thanks for the walking tour of Beantown Ram!  Quite enjoyable  8) by referring to the picture showing the burial grounds backing up to the commons, do you mean the grassy shot with the wall running down the middle?  If so, just what is that white column/pedestal in the background?....looks a lot like what our knight in P3 is perched atop.

Fox, The people on the tour are a little geeky, but they took good pictures!  The picture is the backside of the burial ground.  The 'pedestal' you see is none other than Paul Revere's headstone!  There has to be a link.  The wall (in my mind) is what separates the granary burial ground with the common. By the way, I think there may be two statues of Paul Revere, one well known and a second at the Boston Common. see hxxp://www.worldtravelers.org/boston.asp Could that be a place to look? ABQRAM

just to correct Ram on this, the pedastal that Fox is referring to, is NOT Pual Reveres.  Pual reveres head stone is in a pic on the same page next to the dragonfly.  Those to burying grounds are two comepletely different places.  sorry to rain on the parade, but someone had to  :)

This may have been said already, but could the " letters " be entire documents rather than letters of the alphabet?

This may have been said already, but could the "letters" be entire documents rather than letters of the alphabet?

OK so is it verse 3 and pic 11?  i have friends in boston who live near BU and know the area very well ...

Hi, I'm very new to this and still catching up on the whole thing, but I do live in Boston and would be happy to go look for things if there's a definite plan. I know the Pru or Hancock are the likely candidates for the "green tower of lights," but there's one other building that immediately came to my mind.  On the MIT campus across the river from Boston, there is a building known as the Green Building (officially "Building 54").  It is a fairly ugly building, with a noticeable orb on the top that is an astronomy lookout.  See a pic of it here: hxxp://pthbb.org/offal/54/ It has also been the site of several notable "hacks" (MIT speak for pranks), in which people sneak into the rooms and turn on the lights to make a shape.  For instance, they made an Oscar in 1998 to celebrate Good Will Hunting (set at MIT): hxxp://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/1998 ... reenspeak/ I'm going to try to catch up as best I can with this hunt.  I look forward to working with any of you as a ground troop!

Welcome aboard AmeliaElf.  It's always good to see contributions from new members, and in your case you carry the added benefit of being in a city almost certainly holds a casque. As I'm sure you'll discover in studying the boards, the question of which is the Boston Image is still considered open.  I personally favor Image 11, for reasons outlined in that thread and in the "what has been found" thread.  Others consider Image 3 to be a stronger candidate. To selfishly tie into your mention of MIT... On July 16th I posted an idea in this thread that starts at the Public Library and ends on the Esplanade, looking north across the Charles, roughly towards MIT and another "school". Freedom Trail and the Back Bay Fens are the other areas that have had recent mention. Anyway, like I said, welcome aboard and happy hunting. Pine Tree

Yes indeed...welcome aboard Miss Elf.  Now is the time to invest in a shovel, a metal rod, a camera, and a good pair of walking shoes because you will be looking all over beantown for us as poor wilhouse has been doing in Houston.  Now that we have an insider, let's narrow this one down and find it folks......

Groovy.  I look forward to it.  But we're definitely going to need to narrow things down or get some new ideas, because even a location like Copley Square is way too big to search around in.  There's something we're missing.  I just hope it isn't something in one of the pictures, since it isn't clear exactly which picture is the Boston pic. I took an ancient Greek lit class last semester (I'm a senior at Harvard), so I'm going to email my professor to see if he knows of any place in Boston that would have to do with Thucydides and Xenophon.  I'll let you know if he has any ideas!

Hi all... I am new here too, trying to get caught up. I don't actually have a copy of the book yet... I'm just reading all the posts and getting my mind wrapped around it all. I also live in Boston and would love to help out with groundwork! : ) This is going to be a toughie, because it is hard to hide anything in this city. I letterbox a lot and have been trying to come up with a place in Boston Proper to hide an urban box and it's been HARD! I will try to get caught up over the next few days. AmeliaElf, if you'd ever like to get together and search as a team, let me know!!

I see that a while back there was some discussion about the Charles River. Well there are stairs there, near the big head on the esplanade... if you climb the stairs you are on a bridge that takes you over Storrow Drive. But this is awfully close to the half shell. Just an idea.. Amy

Amymisha, What's the Esplanade like in this area?  Any chance you could post pictures somewhere on the web?  If you try to cross Storrow Drive from Dartmouth Street (headed generally north) are there any stairs that could fit the description of facing the water with your back to the stairs?  I guess the same question goes for any stairs near the Hatch Shell. Another way to approach this is to look around the Esplanade area for distinctive "hard" features from the Images (11 or 3) that are under consideration as matching Boston.  For instance, for Image 11 it might be the circular window, the castle on the box, or a globe.  For Image 3 it might be the arched windows, the pedestal, or a bell.  Either way, I suspect that something relatively permanent (stone, structure, memorial, etc.) should be in the Image and at the casque site. Great to have you and Ameliaelf both on board from Boston.  Feet on the ground beats Google any day. Pine

Hi Amymisha, glad to have another Bostonian on board.  I'd definitely be up for doing some recon together sometime!  I'm pretty busy these days, but hopefully I'll have more time in the weeks to come. Update on that Greek lit prof: he didn't have any solid ideas except for the Boston Public Library, although he did mention that Xenophon's histories begin exactly where Thucydides' unfinished history ends. I'm going to an event in downtown Boston tomorrow (Wednesday), so I'll look around the BPL and Copley Square.  I may not have time to check out the Esplanade (it's a pretty long strip of waterfront). I don't have a working digital camera anymore, so I'll try to see if I can borrow my roommate's camera before I leave the house tomorrow. - Amelia

I'll try to get out and take some pictures this weekend. If you cross Storrow, from the Public Gardens side, to the Esplanade you do face the water with the stairs at your back, I think! I haven't been for a while, so I will take a visit this weekend and take pictures. In the meantime I will study the images and familiarize myself with them. Maybe I'll look for the big head...I need to print the pictures out on better paper....wish I had a book to work with! Amy Pine wrote: Amymisha, What's the Esplanade like in this area?  Any chance you could post pictures somewhere on the web?  If you try to cross Storrow Drive from Dartmouth Street (headed generally north) are there any stairs that could fit the description of facing the water with your back to the stairs?  I guess the same question goes for any stairs near the Hatch Shell. Another way to approach this is to look around the Esplanade area for distinctive "hard" features from the Images (11 or 3) that are under consideration as matching Boston.  For instance, for Image 11 it might be the circular window, the castle on the box, or a globe.  For Image 3 it might be the arched windows, the pedestal, or a bell.  Either way, I suspect that something relatively permanent (stone, structure, memorial, etc.) should be in the Image and at the casque site. Great to have you and Ameliaelf both on board from Boston.  Feet on the ground beats Google any day. Pine

Unknown: Hi Amymisha, glad to have another Bostonian on board.  I'd definitely be up for doing some recon together sometime!  I'm pretty busy these days, but hopefully I'll have more time in the weeks to come. Update on that Greek lit prof: he didn't have any solid ideas except for the Boston Public Library, although he did mention that Xenophon's histories begin exactly where Thucydides' unfinished history ends. I'm going to an event in downtown Boston tomorrow (Wednesday), so I'll look around the BPL and Copley Square.  I may not have time to check out the Esplanade (it's a pretty long strip of waterfront). I don't have a working digital camera anymore, so I'll try to see if I can borrow my roommate's camera before I leave the house tomorrow. - Amelia Hi.. thanks for the welcome. I also am pretty busy, but we shoudl try to get together sometime. Will you be near the part of the Esplanade that is closer to the Public Gardens? Near the big head. I'll try to get there this weekend and take some photos. I know there is a letterbox there... I take that as a good sign, because if one can find a secluded enough place for a letterbox, then one can find other secluded places.... Amy

Unknown: Amymisha, For instance, for Image 11 it might be the circular window, the castle on the box, or a globe.  For Image 3 it might be the arched windows, the pedestal, or a bell.  Either way, I suspect that something relatively permanent (stone, structure, memorial, etc.) should be in the Image and at the casque site. Pine Just a thought here..... the Esplanade Deicatin Memorial is a circular thing....there's a picture at this website hxxp://web.mit.edu/scotty/Public/artifa ... tm#Statues and Monuments I will take pictures this weekend of it... that's the first thing that jumped out at me. A.

Hi everyone.  I looked around Copley today and took lots of pictures, but I haven't been able to get them off the camera yet.  I'll post them as soon as I can.  For now, here are my observations: 1) Among the many, many names carved on the Boston Public Library are our friends Xenophon and Thucydides.  Thucydides' name is decidedly NOT North of Xenophon's, though.  They are vaguely near eachother, but are in different panels (panels with over 20 names apiece wrap around the building).  This will make more sense when I upload the pictures. 2) The motto of the BPL, which is carved over the entrance, is "Free To All."  Interesting. 3) There are two castley-looking churches near the BPL.  One is across Copley Square, and the other is just across Boylston St.  Neither is particularly good match for the castle box, but I suppose they're vaguely similar. 4) The library has an interior courtyard with some exposed earth covered by a groundcover.  It's conceivable that someone could bury something there, but there's no real reason to think that's the place. 5) I don't think the treasure is buried in Copley Square.  There is a large expanse of grass in the middle of the square, but the whole place is just too public.  It seems very unlikely that anyone would be allowed to dig there. So, I don't know.  The Thucydides and Xenophon sighting is promising, but otherwise I don't feel much closer to a solution. I'll upload those pictures as soon as I'm able.  I took a LOT!

Excellent!  Good work!  It looks like it all starts at BPL.

remember that some clues merely are confirmers of an area, not of the treasure site.  The lake in chicago was not next to the treasure, the fountain in cleveland not right next to the burial site. Confirmers are GOOD things!! wilhouse

Okay, I got the pictures uploaded.  I made an account on webshots.com to store them.  You can view them all here: hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/ameliaelf Thucydides is in the picture labeled Panel 1, and Xenophon is in the picture labeled Panel 2.  I also got a couple shots of the two panels together. One thing you'll notice is that the names in the panels on the front of the BPL are arranged in a very regular manner.  They could go into cells of a spreadsheet, even.  If you gave someone a starting name and a direction, you could move around on the panels and get to another name.  I don't think this is exactly what the verse does, but it's an idea. I don't know what it means that Thucydides is NOT North of Xenophon.  Very puzzling.

Hmmm.  One (perhaps overly self-justifying) interpretation would be that the Thucydides/Xenophon reference is doing double-duty.  It's first job might be in reference to "A Letter to Horace Mann", as mentioned in late '03 and early '04.  This relates Thucydides to Boston and Xenophon to New York.  As Boston IS North of NY, then go north.  The second job would be to get you to the BPL as a starting point. Or maybe I'm wrong.  Right now I'm thinking of 4 base options. 1.  We seem to have found several literary references in the various verses, and the Thucy/Xeno as Boston/NY connection seems really good, especially as paired with the other Boston references in the text.  If this is right, then we're on a good track and the panel placement dilemma is immaterial. 2.  If the Thucy/Xeno as Boston/NY connection is true, but does not refer to the BPL, then we still need to go north, but from where.  We'll need a new starting point. 3.  If the Thucy/Xeno connection is unrelated to the Boston/NY text but does serve to get you to BPL, then maybe the (false) boolean if/then phrase really means to head South from the BPL.  5 blocks?  5 something... 4.  If the Thucy/Xeno connection is unrelated to Boston/NY and also unrelated to the panels on the BPL, then we need to find another starting point altogether. I'm personally still liking #1, but I'm also biased in favor of the BPL/Dartmouth St./Esplanade theory.  Better ideas? By the way, thanks to AmeliaElf and amymisha for doing what you're doing.  It's great to have somebody there. Pine

I agree with Pine, it's too coincidental that this exists at the BPL to be a red herring. Frankly, I like the look of copely square as a possible hiding place (photo 11). wilhouse

Unknown: I agree with Pine, it's too coincidental that this exists at the BPL to be a red herring. Frankly, I like the look of copely square as a possible hiding place (photo 11). wilhouse Well, I'm dubious, because Copley is an extremely public place.  I don't think someone would ever be given the go-ahead to dig there.  Hundreds of people pass through the area every hour.  There are no secluded corners, either.  It's just one big block of grass. Pine, you do know that there's a Horace Mann statue in front of the Statehouse, right?

Wow.  No, I didn't know that.  I have to come to Boston for work occasionally (actually stayed at the Westin Copley in your pics last time), but have never been to the Statehouse area. That statue could be very important. Maybe an alternate starting point?  Gotta study my maps tomorrow. By the way, I'm under the impression that Preiss planted all of the casques clandestinely, rather than getting permission of any kind -- shovel at dusk in the hidden part of the park, that sort of thing.  That being said, Copley Square is hugely public, fairly small, and not at all secluded, so it feels wrong to me. Pine

well, I could only tell by looking at one picture. there would have to be some place secluded to hide it. Yes, I agree that he did this mostly without permission.  If he did hide the casque in the zoo in Houston, he didn't get anyone's permission that they know of. He would have probably used a secluded or hidden area. But understand, there's no reason to think he did this during the day. He could come by late at night, a couple of shovels full of dirt, drop the box, cover it up and run.  15 minutes is all you'd need. wilhouse

Unknown: Wow.  No, I didn't know that.  I have to come to Boston for work occasionally (actually stayed at the Westin Copley in your pics last time), but have never been to the Statehouse area. That statue could be very important. Maybe an alternate starting point?  Gotta study my maps tomorrow. By the way, I'm under the impression that Preiss planted all of the casques clandestinely, rather than getting permission of any kind -- shovel at dusk in the hidden part of the park, that sort of thing.  That being said, Copley Square is hugely public, fairly small, and not at all secluded, so it feels wrong to me. Pine Yeah, I assumed you had seen the statue because one of the links from this bulletin board was to somebody's travel photos, which is where I saw the Horace Mann statue (I've actually not seen it in person).  The statue is near the entrance to the Statehouse.  Here's the link to the picture: hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston ... g_1007.jpg And to the person's photo page again: hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston2004/Jul-03.aspV The statue is pointing in a direction, so it would be neat to see where ol' Horace is pointing.  The Statehouse is on a hill and looks out over Boston Common, so Horace is probably pointing some direction over the Common.  I'm going to be out of town for the weekend, though, so I can't go exploring until next week. I don't know if the Horace Mann connection is going to be fruitful in the end.  It's pretty obscure... But I do think it's worth looking into.  Grr, I wish I had time to go looking!  AmyMisha, if you go to the Esplanade this weekend, you might think about taking a little swing over to the Common and the Statehouse.

Unknown: Yeah, I assumed you had seen the statue because one of the links from this bulletin board was to somebody's travel photos, which is where I saw the Horace Mann statue (I've actually not seen it in person).  The statue is near the entrance to the Statehouse.  Here's the link to the picture: hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston ... g_1007.jpg And to the person's photo page again: hxxp://www.slivka.com/Trips/MaineBoston2004/Jul-03.aspV The statue is pointing in a direction, so it would be neat to see where ol' Horace is pointing.  The Statehouse is on a hill and looks out over Boston Common, so Horace is probably pointing some direction over the Common.  I'm going to be out of town for the weekend, though, so I can't go exploring until next week. I don't know if the Horace Mann connection is going to be fruitful in the end.  It's pretty obscure... But I do think it's worth looking into.  Grr, I wish I had time to go looking!  AmyMisha, if you go to the Esplanade this weekend, you might think about taking a little swing over to the Common and the Statehouse. Sure thing! I'll probably be going tomorrow afternoon. I'll swing by the State House and check out Horace. Amy

So it turns out I'm going to stay in town after all.  I've infected my friend Ben with the Secret bug, so the two of us are going to be doing some recon and taking some photos tomorrow in Boston. AmyMisha - we might actually end up crossing paths with you on the Esplanade tomorrow.  If you see us, come say hi!  We look like this:

how did you post a picture? many of us have tried unsuccessfully to do this! wilhouse

It's hosted @ harvard.edu so I guess student or lecturer. Then just point to it with the Insert Image link above. Mark

Yah, it's gotta be hosted somewhere on the web.  Mine's just on the server space they give us as students.  Then you just use the little BB image tags and paste in the url.

If you have problems finding somewhere to host it I can put it somewhere and just send you a link. Email me the picture if you want. Mark

Hi everyone, I'm Ben, AmeliaElf's friend and roommate. We spent the weekend in Boston trying to find locations that could possibly be described in verse 3 or depicted in either image 3 or 11. We did not find much worth talking about, but we did take a lot of pictures. You can see them here: hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/bengb007 We focused on locations that have to do with Paul Revere (because of the Revere reference in verse 3), so we spent a lot of time in the North End. Paul Revere Mall was interesting because it looked a little bit like a coliseum and on the walls were metal plaques (coliseum with metal walls)... We would gladly go back to Boston to take more pictures, but unless we had new clues, we wouldn't know where to go next. -B

I'm afraid I wasn't able to get to take pictures this weekend. I stupidly procrastinated and then we had a snowstorm on Monday, so the places I wanted to shoot were covered. I will do it this week, though... my daughter is out of town and I'll have free time after work. Sorry... Amy

Man oh man.....I have been gone WAYYYYY to long & it sure feels good to be back. Still trying to get caught up! It's exciting to see a lot of new faces around here.  Thanks ALOT elf & ben for the pics...they are great.  I have been one of those all along thinking BPL is DEFINITELY important.  If you look at the panels and think "maps"  Thucy IS north (above) Xen....not directly but his name is higher than Xeno's.  Tying into the Thu/Boston Xen/NY theory.....I like the pic of the street sign pointing to NY.  Maybe that is the path we need to take after starting at the BPL?  Does that road lead towards the Esplanade?  Just odd ramblings....

I don't have much to add. But note that previous interpretations of Near those / Who pass the coliseum / With metal walls could have fallen prey to a misplaced modifier. Perhaps metal walls modifies those rather than coliseum . In that case, it could refer to people driving by in cars (most of which have metal "walls"). Given this reading, those three lines could be translated as "Right beside a road next to a coliseum." It strikes me as unlikely that a master riddler like Preiss would mean "coliseum with metal walls" to be taken literally.

I still feel the BPL is very important to this casque.  I believe "Feel at home All the letters Are here to see" refers directly to the library.  Authors or writers are known as men of letters and I think this is saying all of the authors are here to see. Here is one of the bldgs of the BPL w/ our green tower of lights (hancock bldg) just behind it hxxp://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/pj/bpl.jpg A strange, French fellow named Alexandre Vattemare is credited with founding the library.  With the line "Face the water" I was kind of hoping that Vattemare was french for water but alas, I was wrong.  However;  breaking his name down you do get: va - goes te - you, to you mare - pools, pond, pool must be a coincidence but I thought it was interesting.  is there a statue of Vattemare nearby?

There is this: "The family of Josiah Phillips Quincy, mayor of Boston, became close friends of Vattemare, taking him into their home and corresponding with him regularly after his return to France. A plaque commemorating his achievement can be seen today in the entrance hall of the Boston Public Library at Copley Square, placed there twenty years after Vattemare’s death by Quincy’s son." hmm

yet more ramblings.  BP wouldnt be able to pull something like this off would he? hxxp://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/ ... /bpl07.jpg w/in a courtyard at the BPL.  It IS in the "middle section", there IS "face the water",  there ARE "back to the stairs",  i suppose you CAN "feel at home" & being a library "all the letters are here to see"

Police officers just drove past me when I had been digging in St. Louis (in the wrong spots, of course).  Perhaps library patrons would just assume that BP worked there.

Possibly, just acting like he is planting flowers or something?  If that is the case tho, will we need to ask permission or just dig?  Probably not even the right spot...but just in case....

Unknown: In looking at the 1981, 1983, and 1985 Boston White Pages, I see no listing for Coliseum or Colisseum.  There were no nightclubs listed with a similar name in the 3 May 1983 Boston Phoenix club listings. Might you have been thinking about the Saugus nightclub the Palace? If you have any more information on the club, we might be able to use it to search this club out. In December fox and abqram conjectured that that Coliseum was a night club. I sent a query to the BPL asking them to look up any clubs or dance joints by that name in Boston that existed in the early 1980s and received the following reply: So if anyone can brainstorm on possibilities, I can send a second request, but I would like to do it sooner rather than later.

Introducing myself to this hunt after a tough heartbreak at Newaygo Park, searching for Pook in the Treasure Trove hunt.  First let me commend everyone for the great efforts on this board.  I love to watch puzzling minds work.  Because nothing has been written here in a while I would like to offer the following.  This verse, more than all the others looks like it could be switched around.  For example, If Thucydides is In the middle section Near those Lit by Lamplight, Take five steps North of Xenophon etc.....  I know this would be just plain terrible and not in keeping with the other verses, so I'm curious as to whether it is worth pursuing??  Any thoughts?

coach6060, I feel your pain. I drove to South Carolina with some friends to reach into tree holes looking for Pook, to no avail. I had not considered switching a verse around, since that was not necessary for the Cleveland or Chicago casques. If it's true, then... wow. Our friends Art and Science are certainly lit by lamplight in front of the library.

quite true Mr. Blight.  Welcome to The Secret from ATT coach.  I kind of share in your pain as well......I was THERE when the Bee was removed from the tree but seem to have been left out as a co-finder. I really dont think these verses will be jumbled up like that....but than again, who knows?  The only thing that seems obvious about this verse is that it is in Boston.  I am still leaning towards the BPL coming into play somehow.

Thanks for the welcome Fox and Blight.  Trover commiseration is great if we lock onto a new challenge.  I looked over the posts and agree with the BPL assessment.  Sounds promising and I will do what I can to help and perhaps get this forum active again.  Prior to reading the posts, I thought perhaps Georgia for this P and V pairing.  References to ATHENS (Thucydides and Xenophon) ROME (coliseum) inputting Georgia Towers to the net reveals Helen where Oktoberfest and a large German contingent reside.  Alas, it proved unfruitful.  Glad to join the hunt for now and will be working hard for the next few months.

The last line of this verse reads " In truth, be free ." If this is a reference to John 8:32, the quote can be found everywhere. For example, "The truth shall make you free" is the motto of the California Institute of Technology. The phrase "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" is chiseled in the face of the University of Texas Tower in Austin. This is the famous tower where, in 1966, Charles Whitman climbed to the top with a rifle. I'm sure it can be found elsewhere in numerous places.

"IN TRUTH, BE FREE" Could this mean to use the real events of Paul Revere's Ride as oppose to the trumped up folklore version.... this could mean to follow the actual path of his ride, which is quite a bit more abreviated than is commonly known. See link for both stories... hxxp://www.paulreverehouse.org/ride/real.shtml hxxp://www.paulreverehouse.org Bumping this thread up to current because it is being discussed and needs an image... Tron

Interesting.... at the start of the Freedom Trail (Boston Commons) is a Coliseum.. can it be that easy?

The top of image1 looks like the top of The King's Chapel on the Freedom Trail. hxxp://nanosft.com/freedom/kingchap/index.shtml

"In the middle section" Granary Burying Ground With its massive Egyptian Revival-style gates facing Tremont Street, the Granary Burying Ground is the final resting place of many eminent Revolutionary-era patriots, such as Samuel Adams, Peter Faneuil, Paul Revere, and John Hancock. Originally called South Burying Ground because of its location at the most southerly area of Boston settlement, it was then renamed Middle Burying Ground, as Boston sprawled toward the south. The current name is derived from the grain storage building, or granary, which stood on the site where the Park Street Church now stands. Now about finding a tower of green lights....

Unknown: The verse on "with metal walls" always seemed redundant to me, until I saw where "Old Ironside" has been parked. Trohn said: I'll respond to this quote here rather than in the Image 3 thread. I think this is a terrific insight! It's exactly the kind of wordplay BP was up to in Verse 8. But why "coliseum"?

I am considering the Coliseum to mean the old Boston Garden, directly across the Charles, from USS Constitution. This has since been torn down, but certainly a historic landmark.

Hi all, Started looking at this board again after job search/move.  Looking at this verse, some "random" thoughts popped into my head (in some cases helped out by Google).  I haven't tied these together, but maybe they'll jog someone else's memory: 1.  As someone else mentioned, there is a 20-story building on the MIT campus called the Green building.  designed by I.M. Pei.  It's almost exactly in the middle of the campus, and fairly close to the Charles. 2.  The line "In truth be free" brings to mind a.  Harvard, whose motto "Veritas" is Latin for truth  Harvard also kinda sorta fits the "feel at home" line, as it uses the "house" system. b.  Boston University has a memorial outside the Marsh Chapel for Martin Luther King Jr, who was an alumnus of BU. 3.  There is a plaque in the sidewalk outside the Old City Hall building commemorating the first site of the Latin school.  It is a "hopscotch" type board with the alphabet around the border ("all the letter are there to see"), and some facts about the Latin school incorporated in the design.  There is a park next to the Old City Hall building.  ( hxxp://www.photographybymaureen.com/boston4.html ) 4.  If P11 goes with this verse, there is an old armory in Boston at Columbus and Arlington (1st Corps of Cadets Armory/Park Plaza castle).  There's a pic at hxxp://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/parkplaz.htm (note that the skinny tower has arrow slits, like the one in the pic). Don't know about "the Greeks" (Thucydides/Xenophon) , but there are a number of libraries around Boston (Mary Baker eddy Library, Harvard University Library, etc.).  Also, Hellenic College is in Brookline right outside Boston That's all I can come up with now.  I'll post other links as I find them. -dan

Nice photo of the hopscotch. "All the letters are here to see" I like it. And it is on the Freedom Trail. But with this area so densely concrete, where to bury something in secret? And by your phrasing of Thucydides and Xenophon as "The Greeks", could these be markings on Fraternity houses? It is a given that the only place one will find mention of these two folks are on a college campus. I am fairly certain that this is the correct area in Boston: Iron Side, Freedom Trail, Old Boston Gardens, Paul Revere Home, MIT, the Charles crossing - now the hopscotch at Old State House seems to cement it (no pun intended). Just have to orient ourselves properly. And now the image and its details....

For those looking to scout this area out, see the hopscotch mosaic, a plaque with a animal looking like the image's stone animal(lower left), Ben Franklin staue, and Grainiery Burial Grounds all on the same four corners... hxxp://www.frommers.com/destinations/boston/A29758.html hxxp:/bizkard.com/freedom/firstschool/index.shtml Old Iron Side is near but not right here. Also here, King's Chapel (do not know what year it was expanded) and Park Street Church. Also, Boston Athanaeum... (where to face water??)

AmeliaElf and I had seen that plaque and, after much excitement (i.e. ALL THE LETTERS ARE HERE TO SEE!!! IT'S HERE!!!), we realized that the plaque had been put there a few years after the book was written. Alas.

AmeliaElf and I had seen that plaque and, after much excitement (i.e. ALL THE LETTERS ARE HERE TO SEE!!! IT'S HERE!!!), we realized that the plaque had been put there a few years after the book was written. Alas.

Alas... City Carpet, 1983. Ceramic,brass and stained Concrete 25' sq. Lilli Ann Killen Rosenberg (see Newton: Five Concrete Mosaic Sculptures). Hi John, Let me try to find that infomation for you.  I'll get back with you shortly. Management Office Old City Hall Landmark Corp. 45 School Street Boston, MA  02108 P:  (617) 523-8678 F:  (617) 523-3782 email: [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: Alfano, John W (alfanoj) To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:40 PM Subject: Sidewalk Mosaic Hi- Can you tell me when the sidewalk mosaic hopscotch recognizing the Latin School was installed?  (in which year) Thanks. John Alfano Juniata College

Trohn wrote:: ...It is a given that the only place one will find mention of these two folks are on a college campus.... You will also find them on the outside of the Boston Public Library.

I think the BPL is the correct correlation with both our Greek buddies as well as all the letters are here to see. Letter: letters (used with a sing. verb) -Literary culture; belles-lettres. -Learning or knowledge, especially of literature. -Literature or writing as a profession. "letters" would refer to highly educated people....authors and the like. BPL definitely ties in with this V.

I think the BPL is the correct correlation with both our Greek buddies as well as all the letters are here to see. Letter: letters (used with a sing. verb) -Literary culture; belles-lettres. -Learning or knowledge, especially of literature. -Literature or writing as a profession. " letters " would refer to highly educated people....authors and the like. BPL definitely ties in with this V.

"You will also find them on the outside of the Boston Public Library." I am assuming this is the main branch only-Copley Square... can someone post a photo of where the two are in relation to each other here...?

See AmeliaElf's post and photographs, this thread, February 17, 2005.

Near Those   Who pass the coliseum MASS Pike runs right by Pru, Trinity, Hancock... If the coliseum can be nailed down with some certainty.  I liked Boston Garden, but doesn't fit the current area. OR could BP be referring to the Boston Marathon, while the original olympic marathon ended in the Athens Coliseum, the modern Boston Marathon ends in Copley Park. (so instead of 'those' referring to cars, 'those' could mean the runners.  Runners are referred to as 'passing' the spectators. The Boston Marathon has been around for over a hundred years. hxxp://www.bostonmarathon.org/BostonMar ... seMaps.pdf

ahhhh, right back to Copely Sq.  How refreshing

How about Trinity Church for the last line of verse 3?  I see it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but this could tie it into the verse. I found: hxxp://www.revelation13.net/Trinity.html which is an inside shot of the church which has the John 8:32 verse.  The church is located right next to Copley Square, across from the Library.  Hard to tell from the picture, but maybe the sanctuary is lit with lamps? The church webpage is hxxp://www.trinitychurchboston.org

I like this area for BP. A lot of stuff for him to key off of. I love the Science statue of the Library holding the world. I love the fact that Copley Square had a main street running through it cutting the square in half. (see the cut squares on the side of the Pandora) Problems for solve:  Copley Square has new statues in place since 1982 so I have not had luck knowing exactly what comprised the square in 1982. I have over head blue print shots of the time, but they lack the detail to key off of the verse. I found the old Boston Opera House had been referred to as the Coliseum Theater.  It is down the block on St James heading towards the Commons.  (I do not know how common that name was for it though) The North verse South on the Greeks needs to be resolved. Did the architecture design any other buildings in the area and use Greek names on the facade? What about the Art Museum on the other front of the Square? Any links to the verse?

niteowl9 wrote:: How about Trinity Church for the last line of verse 3?  I see it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but this could tie it into the verse. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." YES

And don't forget this, on the BPL facade:

Does someone want to post a photo of the "green tower of lights in the middle section" Tis the season.... hxxp://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2 ... g_boston-i hxxp://boston.about.com/od/thingstodo/a ... masHub.htm

Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Boston Public Library Facade (across street from Copley Square) Take five steps In the area of his direction What are the five steps? (Library Steps?) Who is he?  (John Copley Statue, recent addition) A green tower of lights  Famous Boston Christmas Tree (seasonal though) In the middle section      Location of the tree within Copley Square (used to be a street splitting the square - has been closed and part of the park for a while) Near those Who pass the coliseum The street that passes the square towards the Boston Garden (has been replaced - but location is known as North Station) With metal walls "the people passing the Garden continue along this street also will pass 'Old Iron Side'" Face the water Your back to the stairs Your back to the library and across the street you are facing the famous Copley Fountain Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. Obvious reference to Paul Revere and the North Church And another quote on the front of the Boston Public Library. Anyone still around Boston for the holidays wants to explore this yet again?

Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Boston Public Library Facade (across street from Copley Square) Take five steps In the area of his direction What are the five steps? (Library Steps?) Who is he?  (John Copley Statue, recent addition) A green tower of lights  Famous Boston Christmas Tree (seasonal though) In the middle section      Location of the tree within Copley Square (used to be a street splitting the square - has been closed and part of the park for a while) Near those Who pass the coliseum The street that passes the square towards the Boston Garden (has been replaced - but location is known as North Station) With metal walls "the people passing the Garden continue along this street also will pass 'Old Iron Side'" Face the water Your back to the stairs Your back to the library and across the street you are facing the famous Copley Fountain Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. Obvious reference to Paul Revere and the North Church And another quote on the front of the Boston Public Library. Anyone still around Boston for the holidays wants to explore this yet again?

It is just my opinion...but I still believe the Green Tower of Lights to be the Hancock building.

wow, where the #Q$%# do we dig then? come on.

Uh, we're supposed to dig where the casque is, remember? Good grief, do I gots ta do all the #Q$%# thinking 'round here?

lol

Having been to the area I am still not convinced that Boston has a casque. First, if the line "Lit by lamplight" is a reference to the Old North Church shouldn't it say "Lit by lantern light"? Also, Revere's ride was at midnight, which would be described as either "0 hour" or the "24th hour".  The "twelfth hour" would seem to indicate noon. Of course, I could be completely wrong....

It is my opinion that the last four lines of this V are most obvious. hxxp://poetry.eserver.org/paul-revere.html or, according to one entry in wikipedia...could we be looking for sunset? "In ancient and medieval cultures, in which the division between night and day mattered far more than in societies with widespread use of artificial light, the counting of hours started with sunrise. So sunrise was always exactly at the beginning of the first hour, noon at the end of the sixth hour and sunset exactly at the end of the twelfth hour." I am still sold on Boston for this V though.

but then what P? one goes to charleston, and on to salt lake city!  and new orleans!  what now?

bclews wrote:: First, if the line "Lit by lamplight" is a reference to the Old North Church shouldn't it say "Lit by lantern light"? A line from Longfellow: A second lamp in the belfry burns.

regulus wrote:: but then what P? ahhh, now that is the 64 thousand dollar question....and unfortunately, I am still befuddled with this one.

there is one thing that is bothering me about this V, It doesn't seem to specify a place to dig

Sure it does. When you're in the right place, the V instructs you to Take five steps / In the area of his direction . Then Face the water / Your back to the stairs . Implied at that point is dig .

Hey all, This post covers multiple verses (1, 3, 7, 12) and multiple pictures (5, 6, 7, 8 ).  There doesn't seem to be just one thread that was appropriate for this kind of post so I just posted it in all 8 threads.  So if you have read this post once you don't have to read the other 7 as they are all the same. Socrates, Pindar, Apelles Free speech, couplet, birch To find casque’s destination (Verse 4) (Lines 10, 11, 12) The word birch rhymes with verse so I think the line is supposed to read FREE VERSE, COUPLET.  Now separate the initial letters of each couplet that rhymes from the initial letters of the free verse(i.e. the lines that don’t rhyme).  You can do this for all the verses(although some of them are all free verse with no lines that rhyme), however, for reasons that I will make clear below I think the only verses that matter here are Verses 1, 3, 7, and 12.  In all the verses below I have highlighted the lines that rhyme. I will start with Verse 12 as we already know the answer for that one. Where M and B are set in stone And to Congress, R is known L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks’ Treasure holder The end of ten by thirteen Is your clue Fence and fixture Central too For finding jewel casque Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. So you end up with: WABTICBH which when you rearrange the letters and use the B’s as blank spaces between the words you get: CHI B WA B T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the B’s - Chicago Water Tower.  As we all know this is the tower in Picture 5.  This also explains the use of the word Hush in the verse, BP needed a word that started with H and rhymed with Brush. On to Verse 1 Fortress north Cold as glass Friendship south Take your task To the number Nine eight two Through the wood No lion fears In the sky the water veers Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Falls gently In December night Looking back from treasure ground There’s the spout! A whistle sounds. So you end up with: NISPOILA which when you rearrange the letters and use the I’s as blank spaces between the words you get: NO I S I PLA or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the I’s – New Orleans Spanish Plaza.  And there is a Spanish Plaza in New Orleans. On to Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. This time use the letters that begin the free verse lines: INTANWWFYFAETL which when you rearrange the letters and use the extra WFA as blank spaces between the words you get: FT W WAYNE F LIN A T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the WFA – Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower.  And there is a Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Indiana built in 1929. And finally Verse 7 At stone wall’s door The air smells sweet Not far away High posts are three Education and Justice For all to see Sounds from the sky Near ace is high Running north, but first across In jewel’s direction Is an object Of Twain’s attention Giant Pole Giant step To the place The casque is kept. I first started anagramming this one using the same method of separating the letters that I used above and ended up with some wrong answers that wilhouse pointed out.  So I think for this one you anagram all the letters together: ATNHEFSNRIIOGGTT which when you rearrange the letters and use the G’s as blank spaces between the words you get HST G NATION G FRET or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the G’s – Houston National Forest.  This one didn’t anagram to my satisfaction as you end up with an extra I but there is a Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Now as cool as all that was this is the really cool part and the reason that I think that this particular solution only deals with the above 4 verses.  Going back to verse 4 and using the words Socrates, Pindar, Apelles, birch along with information that we already have from the pictures(i.e. the latitudes and longitudes) you can as BP put it, “wed one picture with one verse.” Birch = 5 letters, picture 5 we know is Chicago goes with verse 12 which gives us Chicago Water Tower. Apelles = 7 letters, picture 7 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is New Orleans and verse 1 gives us New Orleans Spanish Plaza. Socrates = 8 letters, picture 8 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is Houston and verse 7 gives us Sam Houston National Forest. (sort of) Pindar = 6 letters, by process of elimination picture 6 goes with verse 3 which gives us Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower. So to sum up. Verse 1 goes with Picture 7 and give us a starting location of Spanish Plaza in New Orleans Verse 3 goes with Picture 6 and gives us a starting location of Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Verse 7 goes with Picture 8 and gives us a starting location of Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Verse 12 goes with Picture 5 and gives us a starting location of the Water Tower in Chicago. Just some further thoughts that might not lead to anything but are rattling around in my head so I will throw them out for your consideration.  Two of the verses (9 and 11) are all free verse, nothing rhymes but there are two additional verses that do follow the free verse, couplet pattern. The first comes right before the pictures and second right after the pictures.  It is possible that some information is hidden in these two extra verses. Also if you like the idea of the number of the letters in a word indicating a picture(or a verse) then you might find this interesting.  There is only on significant instance of a one letter word in all of the verses(I know that there are various A’s in the verses but I said significant) and that is the v in verse 10.  In addition there is only one 12-letter word in all of the verses, remuneration.  I know that wonderstone’s is also 12 letters but I don’t count that one because you need to add the possessive s in order to get to 12. digger7

Two notes to throw out there. First, if we pursue the Paul Revere angle and link this V with P11 considering Boston, perhaps Brandeis is an option. It's located in Middlesex of "Midnight Ride" fame (the "middle section"?), and has a sprawling castle-like dormitory (Usen Castle) that bears some resemblance to the box in P11. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jlehrfeld/sets/874036/ Second, Thucydides and Xenophon could be clues to look for the greek letters theta and xi. There is a Theta Xi fraternity at MIT, and we have considered MIT a potential site before.

Fenway Park is perhaps most famous for the left field wall called the Green Monster. Constructed in 1934, the 37-foot, two-inch high wall is 240 feet long, has a 22-foot deep foundation, and was constructed from 30,000 pounds of Toncan iron. Metal wall?  Found this here: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/156106776/ I wonder if back in 81', 82' the light towers at fenway were green? ( I apologize if this has been mentioned.  I just re-read thru the complete Verse3 thread and was not about to re-read the entire Image11 thread. But I will soon) The Back Bay Fens Park has 2 baseball fields, feel at home .  All the foul lines have bleachers that look like stairs from the overhead from local.live.com.  Two of them are backed up to water. Bleachers, section(middle), stairs, looks good but.... All the letters are here to see ?  Across the river is the Museum of Fine Arts.

OK, lets try this,  If Thucydides is North of Xenophon, which BTW he's not, he is East of Xenophon, and this is according to the location of their names on the BPL,  maybe...we are to simply go in the direction Thucy sits on the wall compared to Xeno.  This could be the reason for "If".  So than he's east and not North, go five blocks east and it takes you to the Plaza Castle.  There's a little park area there shaped like a triangle.  Not sure if this could be the spot, but I surely forced the first four lines to fit. Find a good map and you'll see it.

Not only is there a tiny little triangle park, the "Castle" has a moat. Could this be the "water" that you have to face? hxxp://www.bostonparkplaza.com/location.shtml (Good view of the grounds and streets) hxxp://www.bostonparkplaza.com/castle.shtml (layout of Castle, showing moat)

oops. I'm wrong again.  Thucy's south of Xenophon.  I have DDD.  Direction Deficit Disorder.  I'm working this angle for now.

If you take five steps south, the direction that Thucy is from Xenophone, depending on how big the steps, you may have to cross the street, look down The Avenue of Arts.  The biggest thing you'll see is the Prudential Tower which is green (I think).  I haven't figured what the five steps actually are, streets, blocks, or paces?  Just past the Tower is The Christian Science Church Park. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jabb/1700219751/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsscarrot/313158192/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmccracken/1214778995/ hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/sissnitz/378147920/ The first pic is a view of the Church park from the tower.  The second and last of these four photos shows the columns much like the Colosseum in Rome.  The third pic shows what might be the "box".  Not as good as the Plaza castle, I'll admit, but still part of the Church with the columns and could most definitely work. I'm lost with In the middle section , but it still could be the Back Bay Fens. Yet, Near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls reminds me of what FB said a while back, Cars! Near the road?  Face the water.  I think we need to find a road name in the image before we jump to conclusions.  And, the Back Bay Fens Park is one block further down from the church on Westland Ave. Feel at home Your back to the stairs All the letters Are here to see ? And I think the last four lines only confirm Boston as the locale, absolutely. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour lit by lamplight In truth be free

Unknown: The first pic is a view of the Church park from the tower.  The second and last of these four photos shows the columns much like the Colosseum in Rome.  The third pic shows what might be the "box".  Not as good as the Plaza castle, I'll admit, but still part of the Church with the columns and could most definitely work. Er....the Colosseum in Rome did not have columns. It had arches.  In fact, the church more resembles the Temple of Hercules, which was round (a "dipteral" temple)  and had columns.

OK, Roman design then.  And I've just found that the Hancock Building is green and not the Pru tower.  There is a green tower in the Pru Center, but wasn't built until the 90's.  It's here somewhere.

shecrab wrote:: Er....the Colosseum in Rome did not have columns. It had arches.  In fact, the church more resembles the Temple of Hercules, which was round (a "dipteral" temple)  and had columns. Take a look, as I suggested before, of Harvard Stadium  (not in this part of Boston though) for the Coliseum 'look'

boogieman wrote:: OK, Roman design then.  And I've just found that the Hancock Building is green and not the Pru tower.  There is a green tower in the Pru Center, but wasn't built until the 90's.  It's here somewhere. Yes, I am convinced a casque was placed in the Boston area. Thing I have to reason out (what does 'his direction' mean)

Trohn, I'm still trying to work off of the BPL.  If we can find a part of the verse that takes us to the Harvard Stadium, I'll certainly spend more of my time there.  What have you got?

boogieman wrote:: Trohn, I'm still trying to work off of the BPL.  If we can find a part of the verse that takes us to the Harvard Stadium, I'll certainly spend more of my time there.  What have you got? Nothing yet.... trying to find another meaning to Thucydides and Xenophone. Its very possible with the colleges around. Something I just gound... interesting... that the matching image has an emerald in it: Emerald NecklaceBoston's Emerald Necklace consists of an 1,100-acre chain of nine parks linked by parkways and waterways. This linear system of parks and parkways was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted to connect the Boston Common, which dates from the colonial period, and the 1837 Public Garden along the Muddy River and Leverett, Willow, Ward's and Jamaica ponds through the Arnold Arboretum to the great country park - Franklin Park. From Boston Common to Franklin Park it is approximately 7 miles by foot or bicycle through the parks. Boston Common Public Garden Commonwealth Avenue Mall Back Bay Fens Riverway Olmsted Park Jamaica Pond Park Arnold Arboretum Franklin Park

What would stop one from interpretting the verse as: from the Boston Public Library - take the T (green line) five stops (This will get you off at North Station) The bird in the image is (after all) standing on a 'T'

The thing that got this thread going on Boston was the line about Thucydides and Xenophon, from a quote from a letter to Horace Mann, written by HORACE WALPOLE. I have not seen that name mentioned. I have seen Horace Mann, and the two Greeks, mentioned several times--but no one has bothered to research Horace Walpole. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that you may want to put Walpole into Google and see what Wikipedia has to say about where he lived--you might be shocked to your shoes. THIS MIGHT BE THE CASTLE IN P.11. Yes, the castle is in London, on Strawberry Hill. But that would seem only to confirm Walpole --NOT Horace MANN--as the focus. And if that is the case, we may indeed be way off geographically--or maybe not. Walpole was commenting in his letter to Mann about the American Revolution--which has its roots in Boston, of course. However--we may want to investigate more of Horace Walpole--such as perhaps a Walpole Building, or Walpole Street...or something... what do you think?

shecrab wrote:: The thing that got this thread going on Boston was the line about Thucydides and Xenophon, from a quote from a letter to Horace Mann, written by HORACE WALPOLE. I have not seen that name mentioned. I have seen Horace Mann, and the two Greeks, mentioned several times--but no one has bothered to research Horace Walpole. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that you may want to put Walpole into Google and see what Wikipedia has to say about where he lived--you might be shocked to your shoes. THIS MIGHT BE THE CASTLE IN P.11. Yes, the castle is in London, on Strawberry Hill. But that would seem only to confirm Walpole --NOT Horace MANN--as the focus. And if that is the case, we may indeed be way off geographically--or maybe not. Walpole was commenting in his letter to Mann about the American Revolution--which has its roots in Boston, of course. However--we may want to investigate more of Horace Walpole--such as perhaps a Walpole Building, or Walpole Street...or something... what do you think? Actually, Thucydides and Xenophon are on the external frieze of the Boston Public LIbrary. And the last four lines of the verse briefly summarize Paul Revere's signal to ride. I do not know of any reference between the verse and the letter by Walpole - can you point this out?

shecrab wrote:: The thing that got this thread going on Boston was the line about Thucydides and Xenophon, from a quote from a letter to Horace Mann, written by HORACE WALPOLE. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that you may want to put Walpole into Google and see what Wikipedia has to say about where he lived--you might be shocked to your shoes. THIS MIGHT BE THE CASTLE IN P.11. Yes, the castle is in London, on Strawberry Hill. But that would seem only to confirm Walpole --NOT Horace MANN--as the focus. And if that is the case, we may indeed be way off geographically--or maybe not. Walpole was commenting in his letter to Mann about the American Revolution--which has its roots in Boston, of course. However--we may want to investigate more of Horace Walpole--such as perhaps a Walpole Building, or Walpole Street...or something... According to wikipedia, Walpole wrote a book called The Castle of Otranto.  And if you rearrange the letters of the final word it spells Toranto.  Ok, maybe it isn't an exact match for Toronto, but it's interesting.

Trohn, back at the beginning of this thread, there was a discovery made about the names Xenophon and Thucydides. You can read it if you go to the first page of the thread, but I'll reproduce the quote here: The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveler from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra. This quote is from a letter Horace Walpole wrote to Horace Mann, and refers to the collapse of the great European cities and empires...he was commenting on the American Revolution in the letter. it was stated, (and I believe quite accurately) that the Verse line: "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon" meant --- Thucydidies = Boston Xenophon =  New York and Boston is indeed North of New York--I believe this is the clincher that fixed this V at Boston for a lot of people, along with the reference to Paul Revere's ride in the last lines. However, the quote wasn't fixed as being BY HORACE WALPOLE, but ABOUT HORACE MANN, and the focus then fixed on MANN, not WALPOLE. I thought that that was something of an oversight, hence my post about Walpole. I know the names Thucy and Xeno are on the frieze...but on that Frieze, Thucy is NOT north of Xeno--it's actually East or West. Either way, it still matches the V and the idea. There is, btw, a Walpole Massachusetts, which happens to be 18 miles NORTH of Boston. I think that fact only reinforces the idea of Thuc being Boston and Xeno being New York. I know about the Castle of Oranto, but dismissed it because of the misspelling--AND because I believe this V points to Boston, not to Canada. It was tempting, however! The Castle Walpole lived in is a pretty good GENERAL match for the one on the box in P. 11--not great, but good. The Castle Plaza hotel in Boston is better. But taking both of them together, I think this might just clinch the pairing and the location. Also, the line "Feel at home" might refer to the Castle being a home--Walpole's home. Double puns all 'round!

Here is a picture of Walpole's home: Strawberry Hill. Not a bad match, but not exact...as all our matches have been.

Start at the BPL (thucydides & Xenophon panels) walk five blocks (take five steps) pass by the Pru (green tower of lights in the middle section) continue to the Mass. historical society (where the Revere family letters are kept)? You could then contnue to Fenway Park or The Victory Garden? Coliseum with metal walls says Fanway Park to me. Could the verse be out of order? I just started looking at the Secret so I'm not to sure if the two solves were in order.

Forget my last post, I was going in the wrong direction. Today I found what is on the front of the girls dress in image 11 and also what I believe is the circle behind her and a few of the smaller designs on her dress. I'm going there next Saturday and will post photos.

insatiable wrote:: Forget my last post, I was going in the wrong direction. Today I found what is on the front of the girls dress in image 11 and also what I believe is the circle behind her and a few of the smaller designs on her dress. I'm going there next Saturday and will post photos. Please post them on the Image11 thread.  BTW, any other hint besides going in the wrong direction?

Hi Boogieman, I didn't mean for "going in the wrong direction" to be a hint, but I guess it could be one....when you leave the BPL instead of going heading west toward the Ma. Historical Society stay in Copley Square. I posted a pic of what I think could be a match for the dress in image 11....have a look and let me know what you think. I have more photos of other things that match the image and the verse I'm trying to get the clearest pics I can and get all the info together before I post it. I could be completely wrong about all of it, but it feels right to me.

The green copper cupola in the background is refered to as a lantern (a green tower of lights)

The designs around and behind the window in this picture ALSO reflect the designs on the girl's dress and some of the elements of Image 11. The 'checkerboard' and the stripes around the curve.... Nice work, Melissa!

shecrab wrote:: The designs around and behind the window in this picture ALSO reflect the designs on the girl's dress and some of the elements of Image 11. The 'checkerboard' and the stripes around the curve.... Nice work, Melissa! I think so too. Also, inside of Trinity Church and inside of the Old South Church there are other things that look like the window in image 11. Those 2 churches are diagonal from each other in Copley Square. One corner is the library, one is Trinity and one is Old South Church......I don't remember what is on the 4th corner there.

"Eighteenth day Twelefth hour" April 18th at midnight, Paul Revere was not the only one to ride at midnight, William Dawes did also. William Dawes was a member of the Old South Church in Copley Square. I believe that verse is pointing to him not Paul Revere.

There were three , actually---William Dawes, Paul Revere and William Prescott. I don't think it matters which one of them the reference is about, however. It clinches the location, and that's the most important thing.

shecrab wrote:: There were three , actually---William Dawes, Paul Revere and William Prescott. I don't think it matters which one of them the reference is about, however. It clinches the location, and that's the most important thing. I think what has always clinched this general area to me was "In truth be free" becuase this is the one of the most common historical stories that have been mistaught as general knowledge due to the poem. With this knowledge of the true story versus the poetic one, also know that 'Longfellow Bridge" is not too far away, spanning the Charles.

Another thing: isn't Post Office Square a short distance from Copley Square? Post office=letters (all the letters.)

Nice stuff Insatiable. Trying to take this out of Copley Square was definitley taking us in the wrong direction.  With your observations, you have saved us all from further chasing our own tails.  I have seen some similarities but didn't put it together like you did. One problem.  The Square is not the same as it was in 1982.  From Wikipedia: In 1983 to address public dissatisfaction with the lack of greenery and sightlines, the Copley Square Centennial Committee was formed. A series of public meetings and seminars established design criteria for a new park. A national design competition was held in 1989 and the current design was selected. In 1991 the new Copley Square Park was dedicated. All of this had been discussed here before, but now we know the casque was buried there.  Well, some of us believe it's was. In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home Impossible to know what these lines mean without knowing the changes that were made.  That is the next challange.

I didn't realize the park was not there back then, or atleast it wasn't the same park. Hopefully the casque is somewhere close to a building or some other structure that was untouched during the parks construction. Would you happen to know if the water was there prior to the new park? That would make a huge differnce. The only other water that I know of around there would be the fountain in the library courtyard.

I believe the fountain was there but don't know if it was changed.  We know the buildings are the same.  Oh wait, in 83' they redid the Old South Church, but pretty much brought it back to life with no changes.  When you go there, look at these lines carefully. In the middle section  -may mean the park itself, enclosed by streets Near those - always wanted it to mean near a road or path where people pass by, car or foot. Who pass the coliseum -building around the Square? With metal walls Face the water- could be the fountain, and could mean from anywhere in the park near those who pass. Your back to the stairs Feel at home -relax, sit down on a bench? Or something that reads HOME and you can touch it? It's a daunting task.  Good luck.  I would like to hear any and all interpretations of this verse as it may be used at Copley Square.  It may help us all.

bclews, where are you?

Hold it....there's something else to consider here. First, if the park wasn't suitable for burying something in in 1982, then maybe that's not what BP did...maybe, just maybe, he meant something else by those words. Let's try this: If you stand between the BPL and Trinity Church, you stand in Copley Square. On the East side of the square is Clarendon Street, and on the West side is Dartmouth Street. Both these streets run N-S. If you 'take five steps in the area of his direction' you must take "five steps" NORTH. What if those "steps" were streets? There are five streets North. Five full city blocks. Face the water --and you face North. These streets are, starting in order from Copley Square and going North: 1.) Boylston Street 2.) Newbury St. 3.) Commonwealth Ave. 4.) Marlborough St. 5.) Beacon Street. The next street is BACK STREET. I remember a post on here about this...what if it meant Your "Back" to the Stairs--well, there are stairs to the Esplanade. Pedestrian overpasses. Get past Back Street and you are in the Charles River Reservation, 17 miles of parkland along the river. How about "those who pass the Coliseum" meaning "those roads" that pass the Coliseum--the Coliseum either referring to Harvard stadium, Fenway Park, or another athletic venue? And "in the middle section" might refer to the Middle Charles Basin area of the Reservation. (there's an Upper and Lower basin as well.) The Middle Basin of the Reservation is the largest open space...here's a quote from their brochure: The Middle Basin is a zone of transition from urban and formal to rural and natural. Parkways lining the Charles River Basin separate it from contiguous open spaces. The largest open space is between the Harvard University athletic fields on the south and Mt. Auburn and Cambridge cemeteries on the north. Together, these areas form a critical oasis for migrating birds. note that it mentions migrating birds...maybe that's why there's a bird in the picture. It's been a well-known birdwatching spot for many decades. So, facing the water with your "Back" to the stairs, would put you in the Charles River Reservation. The only other explanation I have for some of this is that there is an L St. and a K St. in Boston--I'm presuming there are other "letters" as well--these are all in South Boston. I have no idea if they are close enough to consider. All in all, there are still possibilities for this casque--even if we never get out of Copley Square, which is the preferred location. We don't know how much or what renovation was done there--maybe it wasn't that much to erase the features of the square. If there is a fountain,or even if there isn't --"face the water" still means "Face North."  The Charles river hasn't changed direction, we can count on that anyway. If you can find a starting spot to count "steps" from, you will be okay--but that's the real difficulty here.

I don't have a map of the middle basin area to see if this would be a possibility, but maybe "Feel at home" is referring to the home base of a baseball diamond? Shecrab mentioned an athletic field near by, maybe it's a baseball field. A thought on "back to the stairs" and maybe this is obvious...but I've always read it to mean "turn your back to the stairs." But maybe it means "Return or go to the stairs" Not sure if it would make a difference.... I look forward to reading about your discoveries on Saturday. Happy hunting!

These perhaps? hxxp://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/metroboston/ebersol.htm They were restored in 2006 and reopened--I have no idea when they were initially put in.  Check out the photos--interesting. They are located on Storrow Dr.

I'm not sure when those were put in shecrab....over the past 10 years there has been so much construction in the city it's hard to keep up.....and 25 years ago I have hardly any clue what was where ....I was only about 8 lol I'll ask around at work today about the baseball fields on storrow and about what was at copley before the new park and hopefully someone there will know something.

Ok I think I found the coliseum.........in 1869 a temporary coliseum was built for the peace jubilee on dartmouth street in copley square. I don't know yet if it's walls were metal or not.

I know I posted about the green cupola (the lantern) being the "green tower of lights" but I came across a photo this morning of that church at night. The cupola is not lit up but the other tower on the church (the one that matches the 211) is lit up at night by a green light. So either way that church has a green tower of lights. So far thi is what we have...... "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon" Clearly this is pointing to the panels at the library. "Take five steps In the area of his direction" This is either literaly 5 walking steps which keeps us in the library or take the five steps (stairs), either five actual stairs in or in front of the library, or 5 steps meaning blocks heading north to storrow drive. Or could Thucydides or Xenophon be pointing in one of these panels in the direction we are suppose to go? "A green tower of lights" Obviously the Old South Church which sits north across the street from the library. "In the middle section" unknown "Near those Who pass the coliseum" Coliseum could be the old peace jubilee building, the baseball fields on storrow drive, it could just mean the location is NEAR fenway park. MIT, BU and Harvard all used to have buildings in Copley Square, did any of them have a coliseum? "With metal walls" unknown "Face the water" Face the fountain in the library courtyard, face the fountain in Copley Square, face the water on Storrow drive. "Your back to the stairs" Keep your back to the stairs at or in the library, keep your back to any other stairs that may be in Copley Square, Stairs on Back Street. "Feel at home" Feel around at home plate at the baseball field on Storrow drive, make yourself at home and sit somewhere in library or in Copley Square, or some other unknown thing that means "home" "All the letters Are here to see" Corespondence letters at the library, engravings on the buildings? "Eighteenth day Twelefth hour" This part of the verse could simply mean Boston, or it could be something more specific like William Dawes being a member of the Old South Church or something else having to do with Paul Revere. "Lit by lamplight" Another Revere/Dawes clue or the lamplights in Copley Square. "In truth, be free" Is there a statue with justice scales in Copley area? The library engraving "Free to all" or some other unknown. In image 11 most everything points to Trinity Church across the street from the library and the Old South Church. One thing from Old south church is in the image (possibly 2) and one thing from the library are in the image. So simple but still so complicated.

boogieman wrote:: Nice stuff Insatiable.   :o Trying to take this out of Copley Square was definitley taking us in the wrong direction.  With your observations, you have saved us all from further chasing our own tails.  I have seen some similarities but didn't put it together like you did. One problem.  The Square is not the same as it was in 1982.  From Wikipedia: In 1983 to address public dissatisfaction with the lack of greenery and sightlines, the Copley Square Centennial Committee was formed. A series of public meetings and seminars established design criteria for a new park. A national design competition was held in 1989 and the current design was selected. In 1991 the new Copley Square Park was dedicated. All of this had been discussed here before, but now we know the casque was buried there.  Well, some of us believe it's was. In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home Impossible to know what these lines mean without knowing the changes that were made.  That is the next challange. This is not new (for this discussion) but may be useful at this juncture... hxxp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084855/ A nice overview of Copley Square at the point in time that we need!

Hi Trohn, I thought that movie was filmed in South Boston? Does it also have scenes in Copley Square? Still a great idea, there must be something that was filmed in Copley around that time if this one wasn't.

Soemthing just occurred to me: the verse says "IF Thucydides is north of Xenophon, take 5 steps in the area of his direction." If Thucydides is NORTH of Xenophon, then Xenophon is SOUTH of Thucydides. So what if "his" direction refers to Xenophon, not Thucydides?  In other words, we're going in exactly the opposite direction we should?  Instead of going NORTH, we should be 'taking five steps SOUTH'??? The reason this just occurred to me is because of the link that Trohn just posted to the film The Verdict, which was shot in South Boston--where ALL THE LETTERS ARE THERE TO SEE. The letters, of course, being the street names: H st., K st., etc.... Perhaps we're all off by a compass point--and we should be searching around Columbus Park, Dorchester Heights, or maybe Marine Park? You can face the water there, also: Boston Harbor or Dorchester Bay. Another thing I was pondering last evening: I went over the solution to Cleveland's casque, since this is very near where I live. There are a lot of pictures of the Greek garden in the Cleveland Cultural Gardens on line. I noticed something interesting about the verse: the verse does indeed point to the exact place the casque was found, but it's OUT OF ORDER. You don't start at the first line and go to the next and then the next. It's all jumbled. It talks of the 'seven steps up' after it talks of the stones, and the columns--and to find that casque you'd have to FIRST find the columns, THEN take 7 steps up, then Count the stones and bricks. The lines of the verse do not go in order that way. I don't know Chicago's solution as well, and there isn't as much information on it on line, so I couldn't compare it. But the Cleveland one is pretty fairly documented, and the park is well-photographed. The other thing that occurred to me was that it was a public garden, but the casque was pretty well off the beaten path IN that garden--so anywhere a casque is going to be is going to be off the path enough that (I hope) construction or refurbishment isn't going to affect it as much. I know BP thought these would be solved soon--and they weren't, and 30 years has gone by here, but that casque was still in Cleveland! I have hope here about Boston. I think we might be in the wrong place--because there are elements of this verse that just don't match with anything we can find. I mean, not much of anything. A "temporary" coliseum might not be something to use as a landmark--I'd think that BP would have found something more permanent. Anyway, those are just my thoughts here.

Good thoughts shecrab. If "all the letters" means the alphabet streets in southie that would also be close by the Black Falcon terminal that trohn mentioned. I wonder if anything in the image or verse would match up with things in southie too, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. One more thing about alphabet streets.....the streets in Boston also go in order.... from east to west ....Arlington, Berkley, Claredon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Glouster, Hereford.

All of those streets run from north to south starting at Storrow drive, crossing over Commonwealth ave. and ending on Boylston st. The middle would be Dartmouth Street where it intersects with Commonwealth ave.

Even though all of these are great ideas I am still convinced its in Copley Square. To many things in the image line up. I'm not sure that all of those elements would match up to somewhere else all within the same city block....in Boston or elsewhere. 90% of what is in the image and in the verse can be found in Copley.....and that is without even going there. I'm trying really hard to have an open mind on this but with so much pointing to one spot it's hard to think of other places. The only 2 things that can't be matched to the area are the bird and the line in the verse that talks about the coliseum and metal walls.

Looking at Chicago's and Cleveland's solutions shows that an item in the image was atleast a mile away from where the casque was buried, the water tower in Chicago and the Terminal Tower in Cleveland......maybe these two landmarks were used just to point you to that city, maybe there is a "Tower" theme going on. If it's a tower theme and the tower is atleast a mile from the casque then the green tower in Boston could work the same way, but that of course would mean that the casque is not in Copley Square. If towers are not a theme and something in the verse could be atleast a mile away then Fenway Park could definitely be the coliseum with metal walls about a mile from Copley Square.

Black Falcon Street (and terminal)  is in South Boston where all the "letter" streets are. I think this points BIG TIME to the area. As much as I liked the Copley Square stuff this really makes me think that we DO have the wrong area.

shecrab wrote:: Black Falcon Street (and terminal)  is in South Boston where all the "letter" streets are. I think this points BIG TIME to the area. As much as I liked the Copley Square stuff this really makes me think that we DO have the wrong area. The expo center is close by there, maybe that could be considered a coliseum? I'm not sure if it's walls are metal.

shecrab wrote:: Black Falcon Street (and terminal)  is in South Boston where all the "letter" streets are. I think this points BIG TIME to the area. As much as I liked the Copley Square stuff this really makes me think that we DO have the wrong area. The only downside to this is that I don't believe there is anything having to do with Paul Revere in Southie........but the Paul Revere verse could only be pointing to the right city.

My boyfriend, who grew up in Southie, says there is something called "Golden Gate Stairs" and if you had your back to them you would be facing the water.....you cannot see black falcon terminal from there though. Neither one of us can think of any "green tower of lights" in the area. South Boston also has a huge park and Castle Island is a well known historical spot.

I still like the Copley Square location.... take a walking tour as you had planned and see what you discover.... A different interpretation (not necessarily correct) -The finish of the Olympic marathons ended in the Coliseum (one lap around the stadium) -Copley Sqaure is the finish line of the most famous American Marathon.

hmmm.... could it be this simple.... hxxp://varacalli.com/ShowPicture.html?i ... ures/misc/ (green lights in the middle section)  tower?? hxxp://search.isp.netscape.com/nsisp/im ... tyard2.jpg the coliseum?? Inside the courtyard, one could orient themselves to have Thucydides be North of Xenophone (standing on the inside of the wall where the frieze is) hmm....

Let's hope it was not in the library courtyard, trohn. The entire courtyard was torn apart and put back together after the 80's.

If it's in the Library courtyard, you don't account for the stairs, facing the water, the metal walls, the Paul Revere reference, or 'feel at home.'

I still feel strongly about Trinity Church....the verse doesn't point there, only to the area, but image 11 has ALOT pointing to Trinity Church.

Here's ameliaelf's webshot photos of Copley Square from Feb. 05'.  Insatiable, this will show you that we've scoured this area before and to me, the match-ups you have made with the images confirms the area.  I was too busy trying to find the castle, you came up with alot more.  (notice in these pics the Thucy is decidedly south of Xeno) hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/ameliaelf

insatiable wrote:: My boyfriend, who grew up in Southie, says there is something called "Golden Gate Stairs" and if you had your back to them you would be facing the water.....you cannot see black falcon terminal from there though. Neither one of us can think of any "green tower of lights" in the area. South Boston also has a huge park and Castle Island is a well known historical spot. It's the Golden Stairs....and here's a quote about it from Sen. Ted Kennedy...it's also a park now. am reminded of this awesome responsibility each time I gaze from the windows of my office in Boston. I can see the Golden Stairs from Boston Harbor where all eight of my great grandparents set foot on this great land for the first time. They walked up to Boston’s Immigration Hall on their way to a better life for themselves and their families. hxxp://www.davidcoffin.com/enrichment_programs/bostonbysea.html Here's a pic: So if you have your back to the stairs, you ARE facing the water---Boston Harbor.

Thank you for those boogieman It looks like Xenophon is in the second panel from the left, I didn't see thucydides....is it in one of those pictures and I missed it? Do you know what panel thucydides is on?

There's one pick with just the two panels.  Thucy on the left and Xeno on the right. hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/127599 ... 1054LBBPfM Thucydides is the second from the top, in the middle section, just above the tiny window.

Thanks Boogieman, i found it. I am a little confused about 5 steps in his direction, if we walk in thucydides direction we are going south....towards ....nothing that we have talked about thus far. Could it mean if he is not north of xenophon we are to take 5 steps in the opposite direction...heading north?

5 walking steps won't bring us anywhere....probably not even to the front door of the library. The library building is surrounded by steps, I'm not sure how many from the sidewalk to the building though. If you took 5 steps north of Thucy and xeno and then put your back to tthe library steps you would be facing Trinity Church, you would also be facing the water fountain (new fountain, still looking for a water feature there prior to the book being written).

Trohn wrote:: I still like the Copley Square location.... take a walking tour as you had planned and see what you discover.... A different interpretation (not necessarily correct) -The finish of the Olympic marathons ended in the Coliseum (one lap around the stadium) -Copley Sqaure is the finish line of the most famous American Marathon. I like this idea trohn......The Marathon route IS the coliseum......the metal walls are the buildings lining the route?

I take the first two lines to mean orient/position your body so that you are facing in a direction where T is north of X.  If you look at the picture of the two panels and use the picture insatiable posted, this actually has you facing west.  I'm not sure what the next move would be or how to interpret "take five steps", but approximately 5 city blocks west is the Back Bay Fens.  I haven't looked into this much, just throwing it out there for others to nibble on.

Unknown: I take the first two lines to mean orient/position your body so that you are facing in a direction where T is north of X. I don't understand this - no matter how you orient yourself, T will still not be north of X. It doesn't depend on the viewer, unless you have the ability to rotate buildings or change the location of magnetic north. I read this instead to mean that we have to find a place where T is north of X. I'm sorry to say it, but that pretty much rules out BPL. Still... Does anyone other than me find it incredibly coincidental that TWO casques involve Xenophon and Thucydides? There is the explicit mention of them in V3, which led us to the BPL. But their names are also carved on a panel of the wall from P4 in Cleveland. What are the odds? I wonder if we can find a book that describes both of these inscriptions, and if so, maybe that source could yield more insights.

If you are to rule out the BPL, then you are also ruling out the Old South Church and Trinity Church match-ups that Insatiable found, shown on the image11 thread.  Is that correct FB?

hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2378093430101570177odlYRz?vhost=good-times Maybe this will make it more clear what I am trying to explain.  T is the second name down on the column of names on the left panel.  X is four names down in its column on the right panel.  If you stand facing the panels (facing west), T is North of X. I read the first two lines to mean you do not take the five steps until you have T north of X and by doing this now you do.

Unknown: If you are to rule out the BPL, then you are also ruling out the Old South Church and Trinity Church match-ups that Insatiable found, shown on the image11 thread.  Is that correct FB? Not necessarily - I still think this one is probably in Boston.

Okay...here's the problem with this. The verse says IF. IF Thucy is North of Xeno. Well, in only ONE way, is Thucy "north" of Xeno. It's actually ABOVE--higher than--Xeno. That's a liberal interpretation of "North" strictly speaking. The verse says IF Thucy is north of Xeno, take five steps in the area of his direction." But if you see Thucy as NOT being north, then what? Then you DON'T take five steps. That's the only 'legal' inverse of that statement: If A, then B. If NOT A, then NOT B. But also--what if the "HIS DIRECTION" means Xeno's direction, not Thucy's? You can interpret it either way. And if that's the case, then you have an inverse of the inverse. If Thucy is NOT NORTH, he is SOUTH. If you take five steps in the Area of his direction, you take five steps in the AREA OF SOUTH. --or-- If Thucy is NOT NORTH, he is SOUTH, and XENO is North. If you take five steps in the area of XENO's direction, you take five steps in the AREA OF NORTH. In the North End, where Copley Square is, is the Old SOUTH Church (Trinity.) So you have the South in the North already. I think this means we should not rule out any direction. AND that "steps" doesn't mean human steps. It means something different. Neighborhoods, streets, blocks, boroughs--something else. If you take five steps in the NORTH or SOUTH AREA, you could be anywhere, and going in any direction! The verse does not say "Take five steps in HIS DIRECTION" it says "IN THE AREA of his direction;" i.e., not five steps North (or south) but five steps in the NORTH AREA or SOUTH AREA. And I also think we shouldn't rule out any of Melissa's finds--they fix the location at Boston almost beyond a shadow of doubt. Just because the Terminal Tower appeared in the Cleveland find, it didn't mean the casque was AT the Terminal Tower. Just because there was snow in the picture (image 4) did not mean we had to search in the snow, or only in the winter. There are elements in all the images that fix the locations in larger areas than where the casques actually are buried. The particular elements in Image 11 fix the location--but not the PRECISE location, necessarily. The verse is for that. Also, I don't think it's so weird that Thucy and Xeno appear on two elements of two different locations. They're very famous after all.  There is a website for the Cleveland Cultural Gardens that explains them, in a lot of detail--Google for it. It made more sense to me to have both of these names appear in a Greek garden and on a seat of learning than to have someone mention them both in a letter. I think that (for me anyway) clinches the idea that the actual carved names on the Frieze, and the directions they lie in, are not what is important--that the location is BOSTON because Thucydides IS North of Xenophon--which is New York in Walpole's letter--simply becasue Boston is north of New York--and nothing more. Occam's razor: When all else is equal, the simplest explanation is often the most accurate.

Unknown: If you stand facing the panels (facing west), T is North of X. No - no matter what you do, X is north of T. T may be higher on the wall relative to X, but it's a stretch to call that "north" unless it's directly above X, as on a map (where up is indeed usually north). No amount of reorienting will make T be north of X on the face of the BPL. But let's say you're right and that the verse is referring to this particular set of T and X. What do we do now? Take five steps / In the area of his direction . Whose direction? Logically it can't be T or X, because "his" has an ambiguous interpretation. I read this part of the verse as follows: 1. Find the place where T is north of X. You'll know it when you see it (but we haven't found it yet). 2. Now, take five literal steps in a direction that should be obvious from the context. 3. At this point, you can follow the directions in the rest of the verse, find a spot, and dig. All of this rests on finding a place where T is north of X, which the BPL ain't. If we're looking for simple explanations (a la Occam), then literal interpretations should be given preference, as in the V4 solution. There are too many problems with the BPL idea, and we're having to do gymnastics to make things fit. Perhaps we should be looking for statues of Greek historians with outstretched hands, pointing at a green lamppost near a stadium (?).

I'm going to brainstorm a bit. For the sake of argument, let's assume for the moment that we didn't know about the inscriptions at the BPL. In that case, what would we be looking for? Here are some ideas: Names carved in stone, metal, etc. (as in the BPL and the Grecian Cultural Garden in Cleveland). Statues or sculptures (heck, even topiary) of Thucy and Xeno. A passage in a book mentioning Thucy and Xeno along with a directional cue (we know BP loved his obscure literary references). Place names including "Xenophon" and "Thucydides." For example, there is a Xenophon Ave. in Tulsa, OK, and a tiny community called Xenophon in Tennessee. There is a Xenophon St. in San Diego, and another one in Morrison, CO. Just examples; there are probably others. A sign with the letters T and X (or theta and ksi/xi) in some meaningful arrangement. Zoo animals, large trees, rock formations etc. named Thucydides and Xenophon. Maybe they were zoo animals whose pens were in a N-S arrangement (echoes of Snowflake and Pierre, anyone?), or noteworthy rock outcroppings jutting out of a hillside. Buildings. For example, in William Dean Howells' novel A Hazard of New Fortunes (1890), there are fanciful New York City apartment buildings called "The Xenophon" and "The Thucydides." Just "thinking outside the casque" here...

Also note that the Chicago solve had M and B set in stone...Mozart and Beethoven were etched/carved/whatever in the building across the street from park if i recall correctly.  That is why i think BPL is the best fit we have found so far.  In both of the solved casques, the start of the physical journey basically started where something literally from the verse was etched/carved/whatever. My explaination seems more logical than liberal to me, but that may just be my mathematical mind speaking. 1.  regardless of whether or not they are directly above one another, technically T is north of X 2.  In engineering and math classes, when there was a problem that had the key words "if" and "then", you don't do the "then" until the conditions of the "if" are satisfied.  If T>X then take 5.  How do I have to look at this to make T>X, because until T>X, I can't take 5. To me T north of X is the part that is to be looked at literally and taking 5 steps is where you need to interpret liberally because 5 literal steps will basically get you nowhere. ------------------- Here is another thought.  I read that Books written by the people on each tablet are located in the library directly behind each panel.  Can someone verify?  What if T is above, or "north" of, X as far as the books go. Thinking outside box, what if it is 5 literal steps from the window to the bookshelf where the T and X books are located.  If that were true, thinking extremely outside the box, is it possible it is hidden inside the BPL?  How easily I don't know, but you could find references to everything from the verse in a library I am sure.  The question would be how easily.  Do we know for a fact that every casque is definitely buried and/or buried under earth.  You probably need to disregard this line of thinking, its late and I am tired. --------------------- Another option I haven't been able to fully explore is the area of the MIT campus.  It has several buildings that have panels of famous historical figures much the same as BPL has.  I have came across pictures of some, but haven't located X or T on the ones I have seen.  I know there are panels I haven't looked at yet, but I haven't found any pictures of them and living in TN have no way of exploring the campus.  MIT is just across the waterway from BPL so it is basically the same area of Boston. ---------------------- The one thing that bugs me about this one is that we haven't been able to nail down a building identifier yet.  For the two solved casques and for the Milwaukee casque, there are spot on identifiers.  We have pretty much focused on trying to match up something to the the castle looking building on the box, but looking back at the three i just mentioned, the castle almost seems too small and lacks the detail needed to match it as well as we have with the others.  I'm not going to stop trying to match it up with something, but I am also going to start focusing on different aspects of the image as well in an effort to find a match

I'm wondering what is on the panels of the other 3 sides of the library, we only have photos of the east side. Could the panels be the same on all sides? If so the only way T would be north of X is if these panels were the same on the west side of the building. That's something to atleast look into before ruling it out. Someone mentioned it earlier in this thread, If t is not north of x he is south of him so we take 5 steps in his direction, either south or old south church, to me this makes sense. forest I think talked about T & X being in chicago or cleveland as well, this could be here to confuse us as to which verse to use at those locations. Maybe if you seen T & X in chicago you would try to use verse 3 instead of the one you are suppose to use?

shecrab wrote:: In the North End, where Copley Square is, is the Old SOUTH Church (Trinity.) So you have the South in the North already. Copley is the Back Bay, the North End is north east of Copley by the ocean....lol Boston is confusing.

forest_blight wrote:: A sign with the letters T and X (or theta and ksi/xi) in some meaningful arrangement. The subway here is called the "T"and has a stop at Copley. I don't know about any X's though.

Even if nothing in verse 3 matches there is still no doubt in my mind image 11 is Copley Square. The design on her dress matches the alter at Trinity Church almost perfectly. The window behind her with the stone that looks like a turned around utah matches one of the entrances,  a round arch with a design that looks just like the utah block right next to it. The checkerboard pattern is on the outside of Trinity church. The triangle is inside Old South Church. The squares inside of squares are on a wall painting inside of Trinity. The dark and light half circle is on the inside of Old South Church. One of americas most famous globe makers was Charles Copley, there is a globe in the image. On the stained glass inside of Trinity there are a few peices that also match, on the top of one is a man standing with a circular stone window above him just like image 11. The birds claw almosts fits an outline of Bostons water front perfectly. If this is the wrong spot it is going to be extremely hard to find all of these elements together in one place somewhere else, if not impossible. And don't forget the lat and long 71 & 42 and also the 112, the tower is 211 ft high. Also, I read on here somewhere this image is suppose to match up to Italy, the Trinity Church and surrounding buildings are italian architecture. And one more thing I notice as I'm looking at the image is the big star in the sky...north star? Follow the north star to Bethlehem = jesus= church. Even if you exclude the library (which has a woman holding a orb in front of it) image 11 matches Copley Square. I would be astounded if all of these elements in the image matched up to two buildings across the street from one another anywhere else in the country.

insatiable wrote:: The subway here is called the "T"and has a stop at Copley. I don't know about any X's though. Trinity churchs shape is built based on a cross , a giant t shape.....a cross could be a "t" or an "X" .......even the crosses on the outside of the churches could be t's or x's.

Before we can forget Copley we have to find out how the Square looked in 81'.  The north/south "If" thing could just be a play on words.  We are either off the mark or the park has changed so dramatically that the confirmers are gone.  The BPL must have pictures of the Square from then, I hope.  I feel that we know the verse is Boston, and we know that Image11 has too much of the Square in to be too far from that area.  The coliseum, the letters, the steps, water, all could be in older photos. Feel at home - famous house, bench to sit on, home plate,  "Welcome" sign???  We could use a real good librarian!!!!!

boogieman wrote:: Before we can forget Copley we have to find out how the Square looked in 81'.  The north/south "If" thing could just be a play on words.  We are either off the mark or the park has changed so dramatically that the confirmers are gone.  The BPL must have pictures of the Square from then, I hope.  I feel that we know the verse is Boston, and we know that Image11 has too much of the Square in to be too far from that area.   The coliseum, the letters, the steps, water, all could be in older photos. Feel at home - famous house, bench to sit on, home plate,  "Welcome" sign???  We could use a real good librarian!!!!! I think the coliseum with metal walls is fenway park.....the big "green monster" is made of iron, and it's a very well known landmark just like clevelands terminal tower and the water tower in chicago. It is not far from copley, 1 mile to be exact. All the letters could easily be the streets that go in alphabetical order, arlington, berkley, claredon, dartmouth, exeter, fairfield, glouster, hereford. If there was no fountain in copley back then...face the water could mean face the charles river which would be north if you were standing at the library panels. Or it could mean face the ocean which would mean to face east towards Trinty Church.

insatiable wrote:: The subway here is called the "T"and has a stop at Copley. I don't know about any X's though. But TH is not T in the Greek alphabet. It is THETA. TH. T is represented by TAU. And sorry about the BackBay/North End thing!! I thought Trinity was North!

boogieman wrote:: Before we can forget Copley we have to find out how the Square looked in 81'.  The north/south "If" thing could just be a play on words.  We are either off the mark or the park has changed so dramatically that the confirmers are gone.  The BPL must have pictures of the Square from then, I hope.  I feel that we know the verse is Boston, and we know that Image11 has too much of the Square in to be too far from that area.   The coliseum, the letters, the steps, water, all could be in older photos. Feel at home - famous house, bench to sit on, home plate,  "Welcome" sign???  We could use a real good librarian!!!!! Even though the square has changed, the actual building where TH and X's names are has not changed since it was built....the name landmarks are going to be the same no matter what else has been altered. Here's a thought: The Golden Stairs--(your back to the Stairs) were the stairs that immigrants to Boston stepped onto from the wharf when they got off the ship at their new home.  Feel at home could refer to the influx of immigrants--and the welcome they received in Boston when they got here to make it their new home!

shecrab wrote:: But TH is not T in the Greek alphabet. It is THETA. TH. T is represented by TAU. And sorry about the BackBay/North End thing!! I thought Trinity was North! Thanks shecrab I learn something new everyday. Trinity, North?

Here's a thought: The Golden Stairs--(your back to the Stairs) were the stairs that immigrants to Boston stepped onto from the wharf when they got off the ship at their new home.  Feel at home could refer to the influx of immigrants--and the welcome they received in Boston when they got here to make it their new home! [/quote] Very good idea shecrab, that would make sense. The image just screams copley to me so I'm still not completely on board with the southie thing but you are slowly pulling me over lol

I brought this up about six months ago, and I will bring it up again.... Across the street from Copley Square/Trinity Church is Marshall's (department store) and this picture had caught my eye as the photo of the courtyard looks very much like a coliseum... can someone in Boston confirm or deny this claim... hxxp://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/No ... ?frdir=yes (500 Boylston)

Trohn wrote:: I brought this up about six months ago, and I will bring it up again.... Across the street from Copley Square/Trinity Church is Marshall's (department store) and this picture had caught my eye as the photo of the courtyard looks very much like a coliseum... can someone in Boston confirm or deny this claim... hxxp://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/No ... ?frdir=yes (500 Boylston) hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_Boylston_Street On wiki it says it was built in 1985, I have no idea what was there before that.

Here's how I see this: We are trying to make things fit in this verse a little too literally, and maybe we should try taking it more out of order. Steps = not human footsteps, but AREAS, or BLOCKS, or maybe even numbers in the ZIP code? i.e, from 0211 2 to 0211 7 ? In the area of his direction = In one of the aforementioned AREAS Take five steps IN THAT AREA. The verse doesn't say take five steps TO that area, but IN THE AREA of his direction. IN THE AREA. WITHIN, in other words. Face the water. Is there a place in Boston where you can't face the water? LOL....This is very ambiguous, but that works in our favor here. If you're in the Back Bay, you face North. If you're in Southie, you face, er, East and South. If you're on or near Castle Island, you can face any direction. Your back to the Stairs Well one thing we know is that it doesn't say YOU'RE (you ARE) back to the Stairs. It says YOUR BACK. The possessive, not the contraction. So If we put OUR backs to the stairs, and we think these might be the Golden Stairs, then WE FACE WEST Because the Stairs are in the East Boston Area--near East Boston Piers park and Brophy Park on Webster Ave.   But here's he weird thing: if you FACE the WATER with your back to the stairs, then you can ONLY be in one place: on the piers in East Boston, looking across the water to the North End . So we're back to the North End. And if that's the area we need to be in, then we need to find five of something that make 'steps.' Feel at home = the welcome that we gave to immigrants who landed on these piers in Boston. Much the same thing as "give me your tired, your poor, etc."  I think this refers to the influx of ships that came here--from the Pilgrims who landed in Cape Cod to the Irish and Italians who populated most of Boston. Either that, or we should be able to see some baseball field from our location--which isn't the case that I'm aware of. Green Tower of lights = we just don't know. We don't know if this means "green tower" or "green lights" on a tower. Or if it means something entirely different. Just some thoughts.

shecrab wrote:: Your back to the Stairs Well one thing we know is that it doesn't say YOU'RE (you ARE) back to the Stairs. It says YOUR BACK. The possessive, not the contraction. So If we put OUR backs to the stairs, and we think these might be the Golden Stairs, then WE FACE WEST Because the Stairs are in the East Boston Area--near East Boston Piers park and Brophy Park on Webster Ave.   But here's he weird thing: if you FACE the WATER with your back to the stairs, then you can ONLY be in one place: on the piers in East Boston, looking across the water to the North End . So we're back to the North End. And if that's the area we need to be in, then we need to find five of something that make 'steps.' I thought the stairs were in South Boston, not East Boston? I also thought that the stairs ran from bottom (east, the water) to top (west, immigration hall)? I'm confused, I need a map lol

Here's one photo of Copley Square's previous sunken concrete pavilion.

Ok, I think we have some confusion here. I found the staircase you posted shecrab and it says those are the golden stairs in jamacia plain......whole other part of the city from south boston, or east boston. I'll keep looking to try and find exactly what street. This would be a different "golden stairs" than what my bf mentioned in south boston, I will call him to get a more specific area.

Here's another bunch of thoughts on the green tower of lights. Tower=tall thing, Beacon Green= grassy thing Where is there a tall thing on a grassy thing? A beacon on a hill...Beacon Hill. So I'm looking at the Beacon Hill area to see if there's some tower there, and lo---look what I found! This is the inside of the Athenaeum in Beacon Hill. The ATHENAEUM= Athens = where Greeks like Xeno and Thucy hung out....could any of these busts in here be our two Greeks? And it would be really EASY to determine then if Thucy was north of Xeno!!

insatiable wrote:: Ok, I think we have some confusion here. I found the staircase you posted shecrab and it says those are the golden stairs in jamacia plain......whole other part of the city from south boston, or east boston. I'll keep looking to try and find exactly what street. This would be a different "golden stairs" than what my bf mentioned in south boston, I will call him to get a more specific area. Nope...the OTHER Golden Stairs (there are two!)....look here: hxxp://mass.gov/czm/coastguide/online/descriptions/boston_inner_harbor.htm These are the stairs from the Pier to the upper neighborhood--the ones the immigrants would have walked up from the ships docked at the harbor.  Sorry forgot this the first time: Golden Stairs Stairway, overlook, and benches. Connects Brophy Park on Webster Street to East Boston Piers Park.

lizardlips wrote:: Here's one photo of Copley Square's previous sunken concrete pavilion. Probably not relevant, but since there were questions about what it had looked like . . . hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg

lizardlips wrote:: Probably not relevant, but since there were questions about what it had looked like . . . hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg Very relevant lizard, ty. So there was water there before contruction AND stairs

shecrab wrote:: Nope...the OTHER Golden Stairs (there are two!)....look here: Geesh how many golden stairs does one city need! So far there are 4. Yours, the ones in East Boston from Brophy Park to Piers. Then there are some in Jamaica Plain that run from Park Ln. to Olmstead St., There are some in Dorchester Heights and some off of East 8th St. in South Boston. Crazy. There are no golden stairs in the verse or the image so I think we would need to find something else in those areas to match for any of them to be even relevent.

lizardlips wrote:: Probably not relevant, but since there were questions about what it had looked like . . . hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg Did you notice the lights are globe lights not lamp lights like they are now? interesting.

All of these are Copley hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-032.jpg hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 2-031~.jpg hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 2-030~.jpg hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 2-029~.jpg hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-028.jpg hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 22-027.jpg

Notice in this image Trinity Church has 5 stairs hxxp://libraries.mit.edu/rvc/kidder/kjp ... 2-031~.jpg

One more thought after seeing copley pre-constuction....it looks like the area in front of Trinity Church was all concrete so nothing could of been buried where the construction happened.

Not only that, but it says in the rules in the book that no casque can be buried in any public flower beds. The courtyard of Copley isn't going to likely be where to find this casque.

shecrab wrote:: Not only that, but it says in the rules in the book that no casque can be buried in any public flower beds. The courtyard of Copley isn't going to likely be where to find this casque. Flower beds on the trinity church property maybe? ugh I wish I could get there before Saturday, this is driving me crazy. Hopefully there will be someone who works there that was around back in the 70's & 80's that will be able to shed some light on what was where and when.

There is a flower bed on the church's property, and it's in the middle section.   BP could easily have buried it there without being seen.  But I'm not digging there... You might find the following helpful -- hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/ hxxp://www.crocker.com/~bclews/

But he wouldn't have buried it in the flower beds!! the rules say there ARE NO CASQUES buried in flowers beds. I am intrigued by that sidewalk pattern on the north side of the plaza...can we get more pics of that area?

shecrab wrote:: But he wouldn't have buried it in the flower beds!! the rules say there ARE NO CASQUES buried in flowers beds. I am intrigued by that sidewalk pattern on the north side of the plaza...can we get more pics of that area? I thought either the chicago or cleveland casque was buried in a planter (flower bed) behind the statue?

No not really....the casque was behind the wall, not in the flower beds. Here's a pic of the wall: You can see more pics here: hxxp://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/gardens&CISOPTR=9&REC=2

For those who are wondering, here is the thread where the Cleveland find was described by the finder, Egbert. hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1126.45 It's page 4 of the thread "Cleveland" in this forum. There is information there we probably ought to review.  It gives some insight as to the verse and the find and the location. And I may be wrong about the casque being buried behind the wall--it may not have been. I don't know how accurate the newspaper article was. But it still was not buried in a flower bed. Note that all the elements of the verse are in the find--but not AT the location of the find! The fountain is not pinpointing the exact location. The verse describes elements from all over the area. The Terminal Tower is quite a distance from the Cultural Gardens--not even in the same area. So things in the pictures CAN be away from the casques burial site--they dont' have to all be right there.

Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. I have just had an apithany!!  We have been interpretting this verse slightly wrong and its been causing us grief.... let me tell you.....(a few people probably will not be happy) I had this thought after reading the new post talking about the publicness of the Copley Square.... Here is what we ALL have been doing wrong... 'A Green tower of lights' does not get linked to 'in the middle section'  They are completely seperate clues! In the middle section tells you that that is where the burial site is (either in the middle of the library courtyard - or in the middle of the Church's garden)  I think it is the first becuase of... The last four lines (Paul Revere)  He saw his one latern in the North Church Tower. If you are standing in the middle of the libarary and look North - you can see the 'green tower of lights' of the Old South Church - doing exactly what Paul Rever did!! Since the courtyard has been totally redone, the other clues may not be available anymore. I have a thought on 'all the letters are here to see' What if this is a Library sign (giving directions on the Fiction Section) A-F (to the right) G-S (to the left) T-Z (in the basement) How am I doing????

The image supports this theory - using Pandora's box... Why is the light emphasized coming out of the box?? Becuase the courtyard is open aired (and surronded - boxed in)

I have been thinking to that the middle section clue does not go with the tower.....the middle of what, i don't know, but not the tower. When the last one was one all the clues were mixed up.

The Courtyard Next to the quiet grandeur of the Main Staircase, the McKim Building’s deep interior courtyard delights and charms the visitor. It is a haven of peace and beauty rarely found in a public building. The wall of the Main Staircase projects well into the courtyard. Along the other three walls rounds an arcaded promenade which is an almost exact facsimile of the arcade of the Cancelleria Palace in Rome. Frederick MacMonnies' "Bacchante and Infant Faun," is the bronze cast fountain statue.

Here is a (I think pre-renovation) photo of the courtyard. Can someone tell me what are hanging on the walls surrounding the court?  They look like small statues or busts....

"You enter the older part of the library from the Dartmouth Street side, passing under the motto " Omni lux civium" (Light of all citizens) through the enormous bronze doors by Daniel Chester French, the sculptor of the Lincoln Memorial. Or you can walk around Boylston Street to enter through the addition. The corridor leading from the annex opens onto the Renaissance-style courtyard -- an exact copy of the one in Rome's Palazzo della Cancelleria -- around which the original library is built. A covered arcade furnished with chairs rings a fountain; you can bring books or lunch into the courtyard, which is open all the hours the library is open, and escape the bustle of the city. Beyond the courtyard is the main entrance hall of the 1895 building, with its immense stone lions by Louis Saint-Gaudens (brother of the more celebrated Augustus), vaulted ceiling, and marble staircase. The corridor at the top of the stairs leads to Bates Hall, one of Boston's most sumptuous interior spaces. This is the main reference reading room, 218 feet long with a barrel-arch ceiling 50 feet high." "with metal walls" Since there are two ways to enter the library/courtyard, the first part of the verse directs you to the correct entrance. This would also explain 'Take five steps' Take the five steps into the libaray (from the Dartmouth entrance) If you go into the library from the Boylston entrance, you would have to descend the great staircase to get into the courtyard. That is not the intended path that the verse wants you to take.

"The McKim building contains an unexpected delight. At the top of the Main Staircase, visitors can look down upon the wide, airy inner courtyard . The other 3 sides of the courtyard are enclosed by an arcade which is a copy of the arcade of the Cancelleria Palace in Rome. In the center of the courtyard is a clear pool with waterfountains surrounding a bronze statue, "Bacchante and Infant Faun", by Frederick MacMonnies. " "near those" - the people on the top of the stairs (who pass and do not come down) "the coliseum" - it is the courtyard itself if your back is to the stairs, like in Cleveland where the wall hides you, you can get some partial cover to dig without being seen from up stairs.

I was just looking at "In truth, be free" again....Thomas Hobbes “one can, in truth, be free to act; one cannot, however, be free to desire.”....and then I just read this quote about Thomas Hobbes "Thomas Hobbes, the noted philosopher and a man of letters , who was tutor to Charles II, is buried here. Hobbes is world famous for his book "Leviathan", foundation of the British liberal constitution." I'm not positive but I think the libraries rare book section has something of Hobbes.

I was just looking at "In truth, be free" again....Thomas Hobbes “one can, in truth, be free to act; one cannot, however, be free to desire.”....and then I just read this quote about Thomas Hobbes "Thomas Hobbes, the noted philosopher and a man of letters , who was tutor to Charles II, is buried here. Hobbes is world famous for his book "Leviathan", foundation of the British liberal constitution." I'm not positive but I think the libraries rare book section has something of Hobbes.

I'm following Trohn.....  but what about Thucydides and Xenophon?  Did BP just mess it up, the area of his direction?  OK, tough digging in a courtyard.  If you needed "permission to dig out" I'd like it a lot better. Insatiable, you're gonna need lots of help with this one on Saturday.  Keep it fun though.  Alas, wish I could go with.

Is everyone sitting down.... hxxp://muddyriver.typepad.com/photos/bo ... /lib3.html Look at the great photos of the courtyard..but look what else is in BPL: Someone want to copy this over to image 9.

insatiable wrote:: I was just looking at "In truth, be free" again....Thomas Hobbes “one can, in truth, be free to act; one cannot, however, be free to desire.”....and then I just read this quote about Thomas Hobbes "Thomas Hobbes, the noted philosopher and a man of letters , who was tutor to Charles II, is buried here. Hobbes is world famous for his book "Leviathan", foundation of the British liberal constitution." I'm not positive but I think the libraries rare book section has something of Hobbes. BPL has a few rare Hobbes books........ one of which is "Thucydides"

insatiable wrote:: I was just looking at "In truth, be free" again....Thomas Hobbes “one can, in truth, be free to act; one cannot, however, be free to desire.”....and then I just read this quote about Thomas Hobbes "Thomas Hobbes, the noted philosopher and a man of letters , who was tutor to Charles II, is buried here. Hobbes is world famous for his book "Leviathan", foundation of the British liberal constitution." I'm not positive but I think the libraries rare book section has something of Hobbes. BPL has a few rare Hobbes books........ one of which is "Thucydides"

Holy crap!!!  That's it.  I QUIT!!!!!!!!!

Here is the courtyard today: All fine and dandy--but...where the five steps? Where the "feel at home"? Where the "Back to the Stairs?" Again, I think too much is left out of this--despite your very good epiphany, Trohn--which I agree with--they ARE separate clues, and I've been sort of saying that for several posts--trying to explain that the clues are not IN ORDER or connected, but may be DISconnected and separated.

boogieman wrote:: Holy crap!!!  That's it.  I QUIT!!!!!!!!! lmao i think im with you boogieman

Trohn wrote:: Is everyone sitting down.... hxxp://muddyriver.typepad.com/photos/bo ... /lib3.html Look at the great photos of the courtyard..but look what else is in BPL: Someone want to copy this over to image 9. lol nice find trohn, I guess montreal is not the only place that has one of those.

shecrab wrote:: Here is the courtyard today: [img=hxxp://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4643/bpl2jh5.jpg] All fine and dandy--but...where the five steps? Where the "feel at home"? Where the "Back to the Stairs?" Again, I think too much is left out of this--despite your very good epiphany, Trohn--which I agree with--they ARE separate clues, and I've been sort of saying that for several posts--trying to explain that the clues are not IN ORDER or connected, but may be DISconnected and separated. five steps :  takes one into the libarary back to the stairs :  put your back to the wall of the grand staircase (making sure to face the water) feel at home :  no idea.

I don't understand....what's so shocking? These are similiar elements, but the ones Melissa found earlier are better....I don't get it..

shecrab wrote:: I don't understand....what's so shocking? These are similiar elements, but the ones Melissa found earlier are better....I don't get it.. Shecrab-he posted that dog with the leg because of image 9...not image 11

I still think Trinity Church has too much in common with the image for it not to be right. When the last casque was found all of the things leading to it were pictured in the image.....the lion head & fountain, the columns, the wall that the casque was behind.

Exactly---the dog/leg is fine--but the other one that was found in Montreal was EXACT...this one is just similiar . That's what I said...I think we got a little excited here--a little too excited maybe. I liked the way we were going with this image and verse, and I believe that we can't possibly consider Image 9 because the lat/long in that image don't match Boston--so why would the rest of it? That vine design Melissa found earlier at Trinity is RIGHT ON. The 'checkered' pattern on the brackets holding the spheres were exact...not just similiar--patterns in the sidewalk and ceiling on the Trinity church--exact...the spheres, the Black Falcon, the castle on the box--even if it's metaphorical (i.e., Castle Island ) the bird's claw, the collar and cuffs of the girls' dress, the numbers, everything in this image points to Boston in SOME way. And--I know someone mentioned earlier that they thought the girl's hair (down by the flower) might be a skyline--but it's not--it's a COASTLINE. It matches the WHARVES in Boston Harbor. Check it out on a map. I don't like the courtyard at BPL for quite a few of unmatched clues just aren't there or aren't clear. BUT...I'd be willing to dig there to see, because it's changed a lot since 1982.  I've been thinking about something more confirming in that round window, too--maybe the numbers there ARE significant. After re-reading through the Cleveland and Chicago solves, almost NOTHING in the verse was left out or INsignificant. Though we know that the paintings might be different, I don't think we can ignore obvious elements.

Trohn wrote:: "Take five steps" can also mean 'to go up'  (I took the stairs.  Take the elevator. etc...) Did you notice that the distance between Thucy and Xeno on the outside of the BPL is about five steps?

Yet another thought (brain is working overtime here...) A GREEN TOWER of lights... We've always assumed that green meant a color. What if it doesn't? What if it means a place--i.e., VILLAGE GREEN? A "green tower" would be any tower, any tall structure, ON THE GREEN. Whaddya think?

shecrab wrote:: A GREEN TOWER of lights... We've always assumed that green meant a color. What if it doesn't? What if it means a place--i.e., VILLAGE GREEN? A "green tower" would be any tower, any tall structure, ON THE GREEN. yeah, kinda like fenway park.  I had wondered if the light towers on the field that lit up the Green Monster  (iron wall) were painted green.

"all of the letters are here to see" Here is a possible, albeit, arcane reference:  The portrait at the top of the stairs. The Nine Muses From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For the mythological figures, see Muse. "The Nine Muses" may also refer to nine letters written by Aeschines, or a recent anthology. "Apollo Dancing with the Muses" by Francesco BartolozziThe Nine Muses, Or, Poems Written by Nine severall Ladies Upon the death of the late Famous John Dryden, Esq. (London: Richard Basset, 1700) was an elegiac volume of poetry published pseudonymously. The contributors were English women writers, each of whom signed their poems with the names of Muses. The collection was edited by Delarivier Manley (who wrote as "Melpomene" and "Thalia") and includes pieces by Susanna Centlivre ("perhaps," according to Blain et al.), Sarah Fyge Egerton ("Erato", "Euterpe", and "Terpsichore"), Mary Pix ("Clio"), Catherine Trotter ("Calliope"), and Sarah Piers ("Urania"). The poet writing as "Polyhymnia" has not been accurately identified. edit:  WOW... who knew?! Invention of the letters The MUSES are credited with the invention of the letters and their poetic combination, but Prometheus 1, known for having claimed to be a benefactor of mankind, has mentioned that invention as his own; for he says: Priess was either educated or well researched!  Can I get a whoop whoop!

boogieman wrote:: yeah, kinda like fenway park.  I had wondered if the light towers on the field that lit up the Green Monster  (iron wall) were painted green. hmm I wonder, I've been there a hundred times but have no recollection of what color the light towers are. The first day I read this verse the first thing I thought of was fenway park because of the green metal wall and when sitting in the park you see a citgo sign made of hundreds of bulbs, it's a very well known sign, if you say "the citgo sign" to any one from Mass. or any red sox fan they know exactly what it is. It's not actually on the green monster, it's on a building a few blocks away in kenmore square but it looks like it is on top of it. Just thought I'd give you more to ponder

Yup.  Even Yankee fans know where that citgo sign is.  I was there before I got into this hunt and everything looked green.  Too much time at the Cask & Flaggin the night before, I guess.  (I'm really a Mets fan)

Trohn, you are making a strong case for the courtyard, you are!

Puvis de Chavannes Gallery The second floor corridor is known as the Puvis de Chavannes Gallery after the French artist whose mural paintings decorate the corridor and the upper portion of the Main Stair Hall. The Gallery is separated from the Main Staircase by an arcade of five arches supported by graceful columns resting on the posts of a low parapet directly over the stairwell. Like the staircase the arcade is of yellow Siena marble. Mural Paintings Covering the entire gallery wall to the left and right of the arched vestibule leading into Bates Hall is Puvis de Chavannes’ major composition "The Muses". Here the nine muses of Greek mythology are seen hailing a male figure representing the "Genius of Enlightenment" amidst the setting of a grove of olive and laurel.

Boston Public Library Press Release - Courtyard Opening News and Events Mayor Menino Reopens Historic Courtyard at the BPL November 15, 2000 Mayor Thomas M. Menino, the Boston Public Library's Board of Trustees, Library President Bernard A. Margolis and Chief and Director of the City's Department of Neighborhood Development, Charlotte Golar Richie, today reopened the library's historic interior garden courtyard in Copley Square and welcomed everyone to see the restored masterpiece. "The courtyard at the Boston Public Library has always been a place for quiet reflection in the middle of our busy city," said Mayor Menino. "Now, with the original architecture restored and with new access ramps for handicapped visitors installed, everyone can take advantage of this beautiful oasis for study or solitude." The BPL's courtyard was designed by Charles Follen McKim to resemble the interior courtyard of the Palazza della Cancelleria in Rome. The library's McKim Building with its interior courtyard was originally opened in 1895. More than 100 years of New England weather, extensive use by the public, and architectural changes in the courtyard took its toll on the space. Last year, as a part of a larger McKim restoration project, the construction began to restore the space based on its original design. In addition to landscaping, painting, restoring the fountain, cleaning and repairing the courtyard masonry, the area was made handicapped accessible. The roof of the McKim Building was also extensively repaired. The $7 million project was designed by the Boston architectural firm of Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott, which has been the architect for the entire McKim Building restoration program. W.T. Rich was the general contractor for the courtyard and roof project. "The City has shown a true commitment to preserving the original design elements of the 105-year-old Boston landmark while modernizing all of its spaces for improved accessibility and making way for new technology inside," said Mr. Margolis. "We have done so much to restore the original beauty to the inside of this celebrated building, and now thanks to the generosity of the City, the Commonwealth, the Boston Public Library Trustees and donors contributing through the Boston Public Library Foundation, we have been able to complete the work to restore this courtyard and repair the roof as well," said Ms. Richie. Funding for the entire $65 million McKim restoration project has been provided through a combination of public and private sources, including the City of Boston, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the Trustees of the Boston Public Library, and the Boston Public Library Foundation. "Today marks a milestone in the restoration of the McKim Building," said John Cullinane, Chair of the Boston Public Library Foundation. "It is rewarding to see the courtyard returned to its original splendor thanks to the many generous gifts to the Foundation, including a $1 million gift from an anonymous donor. Our success here will help inspire us all to complete the task of raising $20 million more for the next phase of McKim project." The next phase of the restoration will include the John Singer Sargent Gallery, the Edwin Austin Abbey Room and public exhibit space. Previous phases of the project have included the restoration of such design treasures as Bates Hall, the Sienna marble Grand Staircase, and the Chavannnes murals. Heating, plumbing, fire detection and technology systems upgrades as well as air conditioning, elevators, stairs and ramps are being added in each phase. The Boston Public Library (BPL), established in 1848, was the first publicly supported municipal library in America, and the first public library to allow people to borrow books and materials, a truly revolutionary concept at the time. In 1870, the BPL was the first library to institute a system of branch libraries linked to a central library with the opening of the East Boston branch. It was the first library to establish a space specifically designed for children with the opening of the children's room in Copley Square in 1895. Today, the BPL has more than six million books; serves more than two million people every year and is one of only two public libraries in the country that is a member of the Association of Research Libraries. It is in the process of building its 27th branch library, and all of its events are free and open to the p hxxp://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/g ... 10043v.gbi

Sanity check... Could BP have even buried the casque in the courtyard and got away with it?  Don't automatically just say yes -- think about the logistics.  He'd be walking through a library with a shovel.  He'd have to spend at least 10-20 minutes digging -- and that's a fast estimate.  Then he'd have to walk out with a dirty shovel.  Wouldn't that be suspicious?  BP did these digs on quick trips... I doubt he cased the BPL for days looking for the perfect time to pull off this caper.  It just seems really unlikely that he'd have done this in the middle of a public building, where he'd have no legitimate alibi for what he was doing.

bigmattyh wrote:: Sanity check... Could BP have even buried the casque in the courtyard and got away with it?  Don't automatically just say yes -- think about the logistics.  He'd be walking through a library with a shovel.  He'd have to spend at least 10-20 minutes digging -- and that's a fast estimate.  Then he'd have to walk out with a dirty shovel.  Wouldn't that be suspicious?  BP did these digs on quick trips... I doubt he cased the BPL for days looking for the perfect time to pull off this caper.  It just seems really unlikely that he'd have done this in the middle of a public building, where he'd have no legitimate alibi for what he was doing. I agree, I don't believe it's in the BPL courtyard for that very reason.

insatiable wrote:: I agree, I don't believe it's in the BPL courtyard for that very reason. One point against this line of thinking... Priess was not sane! "If you eliminate the impossible, then you are left with the possible - no matter how improbable." Sherlock Holmes. I want someone to come up with a better location that is even close to matching the line "in the middle section"!

I think I did come up with a better location!  Little Italy in the North End!! It's where Paul Revere house is, it's where the Printing company is, the Old North Church IS in the middle section and the USS Constitution is docked there! That knocks out the midnight ride, the 18th, the North "area" and "direction", all the letters, with metal walls, "feel at home", the tower of lights and maybe even the Green--as in a village green--the only things missing are the coliseum and the stairs! But I may have solved that one too: The jewel is from Italy, according to the Litany. The Spanish Stair and the Coliseum are in Rome . ROME IS IN ITALY. Maybe there is some business or restaurant or institution in the North End with those images on it? Such as--just a thought here--the Italian American Club?  Murals on the wall maybe? A restaurant with that name? A plaque to the Italian immigrants? I don't think it's in Copley for the reasons stated--shovel, library, etc.--but also for another reason. I think if they had dug up the entire courtyard, they'd have found it. That might have been a newsworthy item--small, but fun--to put in the paper or the BPL website. "Ancient Treasure found?" etc. etc. We're talking about a jewel here--maybe worth some $$. Either way, I don' t think the courtyard is a viable location, not when other places fit even better.

Another possible connection with the falcon/hawk-- Falco is Italian for 'falcon.'  Maybe this name appears somewhere prominent. A variant might be Falconi. OR..here's a literary reference: Robert B. Parker the novelist created two Boston detectives named Spenser and Hawk. They figure in numerous novels, rich with description about the city. here's an example of one of these books (this one written in 1999--but he's been using these two detectives since 1970): Boston has been described, detailed, and displayed many times and by many observers. From its Puritan beginnings in 1630 to the present, the city has been the subject of countless books, essays, and articles. Nobody, though, has managed to survey the various charms and quirks of Boston like Spenser and Hawk, the ever popular pair of crime solvers created by novelist Robert B. Parker. Here, in the introduction to Boston: History in the Making, Spenser and his frequent partner are hot on the trail of yet another suspicious character who's apparently working a scam amid the streets and watering holes of Boston. As they follow their suspect, Spenser and Hawk deliver a guided tour of the city, from the shops and restaurants of Beacon Hill to the swan boats at the Public Garden to the Italian enclave in he North End. Spenser figures the duo is about "as inconspicuous…. As two tarantulas on a wedding cake," but they manage to solve their case and, in the process, introduce us to Boston as only they could. Accompanying Parker's introduction are hundreds of outstanding images culled from the collections of the area's finest photographers. The result is a portrait of Boston filled with details of a city where the trail is never cold, the sleuths are never idle, and the discoveries that each neighborhood holds are nothing short of exhilarating. Biography Featuring rapid-fire dialogue and spicy characters, Robert B. Parker's books are top-shelf reading for fans of detective crime novels. His Spenser series is several titles strong and an established classic; lately Parker has raised the stakes with two additional series (one featuring private eye Sunny Randle, the other featuring police chief Jesse Stone) that may eventually rival his beloved Boston P.I.

shecrab wrote:: I think I did come up with a better location!  Little Italy in the North End!! I am one to impose my will, I am here to provide my analysis and assistance and help to avoid people digging in the wrong location. The site needs:  Tower with lights A castle A Thucydides and a Xenophon A lady holding something in her hand A round stone window An 'Old Church'  (can we agree the location is either at the Old North or the Old South) And, a coliseum. At any rate, a visual review of the location(s) may help and resolve (or complicate) things.... Its been thrity years. FWIT - The jewel was not buried, just a ceramic box with a ceramic key.

Unknown: The site needs:  Tower with lights A castle A Thucydides and a Xenophon A lady holding something in her hand A round stone window An 'Old Church'  (can we agree the location is either at the Old North or the Old South) First, the Thucy and Xeno are to fix the location at the North end--nothing says they have to BE in the area we dig in. A lady holding something in her hand? Why?  That's a tenuous "need" at best.  There was a centaur int he Cleveland pic--but there was no centaur in the dig site. There was a guy with a castle on his hat in the Chicago pic--but...well, you get the idea, I'm sure. Ditto for the round stone window. It SHOWS a window, certainly--but that does not mean the window WILL BE at the dig site. The Copley square BPL site did not have round stone windows either--they were arched windows. The Old Church is not spelled out either--it doesn't have to be an old church --the BPL was not a church. That said, the Tower with lights is the Old North Church--I think no one is going to disagree with that qualifying! As for the Castle, once again--there does not have to be a castle per se --not when there are many 'castle-like' buildings and an island named Castle Island IN Boston. We have never successfully matched that box castle with anything except elements of other buildings--nothing has been an exact match in numerous tries--that's why I, for one, think the box castle is just a metaphor for a landmark in the area--not an actual building. "Castle" in Boston--you can get a lot of hits on that term if you search on it. And all of them point to one of two things: either the hotel downtown or the island. Not a single one of them points to Trinity church, yet, that was our best match, visually for the turret on the box! So we fixed on it. However--I think we're narrowing our point of view too much here with this castle--there IS no exact match, that has been determined--so it MUST, therefore, logically, be an INEXACT one. Other types of Castles--i.e., the hotel, the island, etc.--point to the CITY we are searching in, just like the Ohio shape and the Terminal Tower pointed to the CITY needed in Image 4. The casque was not buried at the Terminal Tower. It was several blocks away. I think the castle, the Falcon, and some of the other elements are only there to fix the CITY--the GENERAL area in the city, and not exact elements. And NONE of these things appear in the VERSE--only the image. The verse is what fixes the digging site, no?

It really does sound like the last 4 lines puts you at the Old North Church.  Maybe those should be the first 4 lines of the verse and then work from there.  There really isn't a burial spot near the Old North, is there?

Old South Church-"The church building was designed between 1870 and 1872 by the Boston architectural firm of Cummings and Sears in the Venetian Gothic style. The style follows the precepts of the British cultural theorist and architectural critic John Ruskin (1819 – 1900) as outlined in his treatise The Stones of Venice." "Delicate stone tracery decorates the porticos and large open arches in the campanile. " "A campanile – pronounced /kæmpəˈni:leɪ/ – is, especially in Italy, a free-standing bell tower, often adjacent to a church or cathedral. The word derives from the Italian campanile, from campana (bell).""The east side of the Chancel, behind the choir, is faced by a running screen of wooden arches with quatrefoil lunettes adapted from the second floor walkway of the Doge's Palace in Venice." Boston Public Library-"To Copley Square the library presents a façade reminiscent of Palazzo della Cancelleria, a sixteenth century Italian palace in Rome" "Architect Charles Follen McKim chose to have monumental inscriptions, similar to those found on basilicas and monuments in ancient Rome, in the entablature on each of the main building's three façades." "The form of Bates Hall, rectilinear but terminated with a hemi-circular apse on each end, recalls a Roman basilica." Trinity Chusrch-"Trinity Church is the building that established Richardson's reputation. It is the birthplace and archetype of the Richardsonian Romanesque style," Lots of Italian feel to Copley Square. My biggest problem with going outside of copley is all of the matches in the image. If the verse leads us to anywhere else....north end, south boston etc.......what about the image? Practicaly everything in the image is found in copley except for the bird, and if the bird is only there to be a partial map to Bostons coast line it's only there to point us to Boston, not copley, not the north end, not anything more specific than the right city....just like the states were found in the images for chicago and cleveland and just like the map on the skull of charleston SC. I just don't see why everything in the image would be within one block of each other but the treasure would be buried 10,20,30 blocks away. We also have most of what's in the verse in copley except for the coliseum....which could easily be fenway one mile away.  I don't think it's in the courtyard of the library because it would hard to bury something there, I don't think it's in copley park in front of the church because that was cement back then. I do think it's possible though that it could be at one of the churches or even at the trinity rectory. I just need something more solid to get me away from copley.

I think there is something in the verse that we are missing. I think parts of the verse have to be direction to get us within feet of the casque.

This is dubious, but I'll post it anyway... In Boston Public Garden, there is a statue of Edward Everett Hale, and the inscription around the base includes "Man of Letters".  Maybe this relates to "All the letters Are here to see".

This is dubious, but I'll post it anyway... In Boston Public Garden, there is a statue of Edward Everett Hale, and the inscription around the base includes "Man of Letters ".  Maybe this relates to "All the letters Are here to see".

I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006...

I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006...

Unknown: I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006... Trohn discovered that it was created in 1983, after The Secret was published.

Unknown: I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006... Trohn discovered that it was created in 1983, after The Secret was published.

Jambone wrote:: I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006... I have an e-mail reply that that mosaic was installed way after 1981 pubslishing of the book.

Jambone wrote:: I like this better for "All the letters Are here to see", and I believe that danok2 posted this back in May 2006... I have an e-mail reply that that mosaic was installed way after 1981 pubslishing of the book.

I do like the feel of a clue like that though... it would really help to have several specific confirmers for the location.

Oops, my bad.

Jambone wrote:: This is dubious, but I'll post it anyway... In Boston Public Garden, there is a statue of Edward Everett Hale, and the inscription around the base includes "Man of Letters ".  Maybe this relates to "All the letters Are here to see". Edward Evrette Hale was also a pastor of a church, one in worchester and one in boston.....does anyone know which one in boston?

Jambone wrote:: This is dubious, but I'll post it anyway... In Boston Public Garden, there is a statue of Edward Everett Hale, and the inscription around the base includes "Man of Letters".  Maybe this relates to "All the letters Are here to see". Edward Evrette Hale was also a pastor of a church, one in worchester and one in boston.....does anyone know which one in boston?

Here's a link for Mr Hale.  Can't see him having anything to do with it.  It isn't any of our churches. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Everett_Hale Are you ready for the day.  Good luck!

boogieman wrote:: Here's a link for Mr Hale.  Can't see him having anything to do with it.  It isn't any of our churches. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Everett_Hale Are you ready for the day.  Good luck! ick nooo! It's not looking so nice out today....it's in the low 30' and cloudy bleh I figure I am going to start at the BPL then the two churches and Copley Square in general then I am going to go down Claredon St (so I can pass the rectory) to Commonwealth Ave and walk the Commonwealth park heading east to the Public Garden and Boston Common and end at the other side of the park at the beginning of the Freedom Trail, I'll stop and take pics of anything interesting along the way. I was just looking at Kings Chapel...it looks like the box, not the castle type thing on the box but the box itself.

This is from the special collections hall at the BPL "When observers called the Library a “shrine of letters,” they linked spiritual enlightenment (“shrine”) with intellectual achievement (“letters”). If Sargent intended Triumph of Religion to chart a progressive course toward spiritual privacy and subjectivity, a second theme concerned the Library's function as an educational institution. The bookcases Sargent designed for the Special Collections Hall emphasize the “letters,” or educational aspect of the Library."

This is from the special collections hall at the BPL "When observers called the Library a “shrine of letters ,” they linked spiritual enlightenment (“shrine”) with intellectual achievement (“ letters ”). If Sargent intended Triumph of Religion to chart a progressive course toward spiritual privacy and subjectivity, a second theme concerned the Library's function as an educational institution. The bookcases Sargent designed for the Special Collections Hall emphasize the “ letters ,” or educational aspect of the Library."

If Priess wanted to say "All of the muses are here to see" what word would he have replaced 'muses' with to make it a riddle? 'Letters' in this phrase is absolutely a quiery as we've been thinking: alphabet, post office, collections, etc... I think, if anyone thought, BP had the opportunity and the gumption to dig in the courtyard,  then the clues fit. just my last bit of politicing.  have a nice walk.

If Priess wanted to say "All of the muses are here to see" what word would he have replaced 'muses' with to make it a riddle? ' Letters ' in this phrase is absolutely a quiery as we've been thinking: alphabet, post office, collections, etc... I think, if anyone thought, BP had the opportunity and the gumption to dig in the courtyard,  then the clues fit. just my last bit of politicing.  have a nice walk.

They used to call intelectuals "letters" so "all the letters" could very well be "all the intelectuals" .....at a library, school etc.

So can we try little Italy next? Melissa, to answer your question about the birds all over the place...that's a common architectural element in any Federal-type architecture, which Boston is full of. It's EAGLES however, not FALCONS that you see all over. Not the same bird. That bird is either a Hawk or a Falcon. I'm going with Falcon, because the obvious and most simple answer is that Boston has a Black Falcon street and a Black Falcon sea terminal. I don't know why we need to find any further id'ers for it. It points us to the wharf, the wharf (from a distance) looks like the edges of the hair on the girl in the image, the verse says "face the water..."    I mean, why look further if it fits in all those ways? As for 'all the letters' I will go along with the idea of the muses being associated with letters (litera) but--I think there are better explanations.

Unknown: It's EAGLES however, not FALCONS that you see all over. Not the same bird. That bird is either a Hawk or a Falcon. I'm going with Falcon, because the obvious and most simple answer is that Boston has a Black Falcon street and a Black Falcon sea terminal. I don't know why we need to find any further id'ers for it. It points us to the wharf, the wharf (from a distance) looks like the edges of the hair on the girl in the image, the verse says "face the water..."    I mean, why look further if it fits in all those ways? Earlier there was some discussion over the proper identification of the bird, and I thought it was agreed that it was a Cooper's hawk. And why do you think the edges of her hair resemble the wharf? I can't see a resemblance. Her hair looks like it might be *a* port shoreline with wharves and such, but can you point to something specific that pinpoints it as Boston's waterfront?

I don't understand why the hair thing is in dispute at all...it looks like the wharfs on a map of Boston. No, it doesn't match exactly--or rather I can't GET it to match exactly because I do not have the software that will do an overlay on my home 'puter. But why does it need to match exactly? Is there any doubt this is Boston? Not really. It looks very much like the wharfs--square edged, choppy, etc. It doesn't mean that it needs to be an exact fit. As for the bird--it can be either Cooper's Hawk, or a Black Falcon, or Merlin, or Kestrel. Many birds resemble the profile of the painting bird. In fact, the bird in the painting really does not resemble a real bird at all--it's wing feathers are impossibly long for a raptor, as is the tail.  It's got a hawk or falcon (as opposed to eagle) head, but that's really the only thing you can say for certain about it.

Unknown: I don't understand why the hair thing is in dispute at all...it looks like the wharfs on a map of Boston. No, it doesn't match exactly--or rather I can't GET it to match exactly because I do not have the software that will do an overlay on my home 'puter. But why does it need  to match exactly? Is there any doubt this is Boston? Well yeah... There should be doubt until the casque is found. So far the pattern is that the images have all had something that is an exact representation of something at the casque site.  In Chicago, it was the water tower, and in Cleveland, it was a composite of real-life elements in the cultural gardens -- all nearly perfectly represented in the image, enough so that you could overlay them if you needed.  The only other pic we can be 100% sure on so far is the one for Milwaukee, because it has an exact silhouette of Milwaukee City Hall.  ( hxxp://galenfrysinger.us/1/us/beastie15.jpg )  Three times is a pattern.  I think it's safe to say that we need to see something exactly represented in the pic to call it a clue for sure. So far, we haven't seen anything that's a perfect representation of anything in this pic.  The elements from the church are pretty good, but nothing is a knockout.  The checkerboard arch isn't a terribly uncommon design feature, and the squiggle pattern doesn't match up exactly.  But you might call these close enough -- if there was something else to go on. I'm not saying it's not Boston, but you've got to be careful not to get ahead of yourself here.  You don't want to fall into the trap of confirmation bias.

Question- What if the circular window is not a window at all, but a floor, with a circular pool, with the water reflecting the sky above? It is not a black sky, but a light blue one, and only the north star and the moon are reflected.

Unknown: So far the pattern is that the images have all had something that is an exact representation of something at the casque site.  In Chicago, it was the water tower, and in Cleveland, it was a composite of real-life elements in the cultural gardens -- all nearly perfectly represented in the image, enough so that you could overlay them if you needed.  The only other pic we can be 100% sure on so far is the one for Milwaukee, because it has an exact silhouette of Milwaukee City Hall.  ( hxxp://galenfrysinger.us/1/us/beastie15.jpg )  Three times is a pattern.  I think it's safe to say that we need to see something exactly represented in the pic to call it a clue for sure. Actually, I agree wholeheartedly here. I think you're right...there has been SOMETHING in every image. You're absolutely right. Hmm...so what's your bet for the item (or items) in the Boston pic, since every single image we've found is really really close, but none are smack on? I like the idea of the window being a pool, or pond. That makes some sense.

the Massachusetts State House is on Beacon Street ( i think ) and the State Library (all the letters) is inside of it. Is boston common right in front of it? i was thinking lamplight-beacon. is there anything about sojourner truth in boston common? where are the bells located that play the 1812 overture? i saw there was a jean b. waldstein park at 1812 beacon street but couldn't find any information on it. could there be a plaque or something for sojourner truth? my book still hasn't gotten here! it's taking forever!

slappybuns wrote:: where are the bells located that play the 1812 overture? Slappy, the Boston Pops play the 1812 overture on July 4th every year at the Hatch Shell.  For references see these links: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1812_Overture#Performance_venues hxxp://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/tchaikov/1812.html The Hatch Shell is along the Charles River Esplanade. hxxp://www.hatchshell.com/

thank you jambone! that esplanade is separated into lower, middle and upper sections, and everything anyone has mentioned seems to be right along side of it. so is everyone thinking that the hatch shell is the coliseum? i saw there are 2 baseball fields in boston common for "home"

I don't think the Hatch qualifies as a coliseum. A coliseum is an arena for sports. This music venue doesn't look anything like the Roman Coliseum or any other one I've ever seen. I posted the idea about the "middle section" of the Charles River Esplanade/Reservation a while back, but there weren't any other markers in that area that I could find.

hi shecrab i looked up coliseum and it can be a theatre or a special building for public meetings. the hatch looks more like concrete to me than metal tho (from the internet) i'd had a few thoughts about "home" and looked it up and read"Home is often a place of refuge and safety,." and " in the introduction to the film Patch Adams, home sweet home, the concept of "home" is compared to the human need for peaceful sanctuary, the absence of it thus leading to restlessness." which just made me think of a park or church.  the old north church is not in this vicinity is it? the 18th day and 12th hour made me think of shakespeare, The Twelfth Night" and found they did shakespeare on the common every year, but i don't think they did it 1982. and of course the 1812 overture, hmmmm is there anything in the commons about tchaikovsky?

hey guys look at this picture of the hatch. it has composers. hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... F%26sa%3DN

"In truth, be free",  from "John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 8 feet? church? or is that line just pointing you to the longfellow bridge? has that flag always been there beside the hatch? i'm sure it is lit up by a light. i know i'm rehashing old stuff that most of you have thought of but it's all new to me and i don't know the area so maybe it'll help someone.

Let's review this verse a little for some of the newer hunters to see where we've already gone: Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon This has been accepted by a lot of us to mean the carving on the frieze around the Boston Public Library, where the names Thucydides and Xenophon both appear. There is some dispute as to whether the one name is actually physically "north" of the other. It has also been suggested that Thucydides, which begins with the Greek letter THETA is actually "north" (further toward the top) of Xenophon (XI) in the Greek Alphabet and that this is stated in this manner only to fix the direction we must look as North. (This is the theory I favor.) It has also been suggested that both Thucydides and Xenophon, as THETA and XI, are suggestive of Fraternities. If you favor the first theory, then the casque location narrows to Copley Square. If you favor the second, it broadens to the North End (Little Italy) or any area North in the Boston region. If you favor the third, it narrows to college or university grounds, for the most part. Take five steps In the area of his direction We have pretty much determined this means take five steps North. There is another rather complex line of thought that reverses this direction to South, by using logic. Steps can mean actual paces with human legs and feet, or they may mean blocks, stairs, areas....we just don't know for certain. A green tower of lights The only explanation that has ever surfaced for this is the tower on Trinity church in Copley square, which is green due to copper patina. There is dispute as to whether the words mean a "green tower" or a tower of "green lights" or a "Tower on the Green with lights in it." In the middle section Undetermined. There are a lot of "middle sections" we've found and none seem to fit perfectly with all the other clues. Near those Those what? We do not know. Who pass the coliseum Again, undetermined. The closest match we've come across is Harvard's stadium which is a dead ringer for the Roman Coliseum. With metal walls A couple of ideas here: Old Ironsides is one. It may also be that the coliseum is the place with metal walls. We just don't know. Face the water In Boston this isn't hard. Pretty much every direction you face you will somewhere face some water. But water may also mean a fountain, a pool, a pond, or a drinking fountain! Maybe it even means a picture of water--a mural on a wall or a building with plumbing supplies! Your back to the stairs We've found a lot of stairs. There are the Golden Staircases in Jamaica Plain and in Little Italy--steps that immigrants came up from the wharves to their new homes. There are the steps at Boston Public Library. There are steps at the Charles River Reservation near the Hatch shell. There are steps at pretty much all the locations we came up with. Feel at home Unknown at this time--maybe a home plate, a new home (for immigrants), Paul Revere's home, a home for the unusual, a half-way house, a Home Depot--we don't know. All the letters Are here to see Again, we've found a few explanations: The Printing office in the North End; Paul Revere's house (which contains his letters); Boston Public Library; a mosaic on the plaza with an alphabet border; colleges or universities. Lots of things we can look at, nothing fixed upon yet. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight This probably only has one explanation: that of Paul Revere's ride, which happened on the 18th of April at midnight. Of course, it has also been suggested that "twelfth hour" means Noon, not midnight, which is more accurate. In truth, be free. there is a better explanation for this in the very first post in this thread by Catherwood: QUOTE: I found lyrics from "Ode on Washington's birthday" By Mrs. Dr. Macgowan. "Dedicated to the Ladies' Relief Association, for the opening of their Fair, February 22d, 1864." 1) I have not yet found WHERE this fair took place. 2) I'm thinking that the letters could be engraved at a location: -a) on the site of the fair -b) on a Washington memorial -c) something to do with the lyricist 3) or the phrase has nothing to do with these lyrics: Burst the fetters of oppression, Let our land in truth be free, And no longer Slavery's curse Blast the land of Liberty. On to victory! brothers, on! Shout the name of Washington. Another poem "Freedom", a long poem with a section "The Spirit Voice; or Liberty Call to the Disfranchised" (sic) NEWYORK, JULY20, 1841 The captive in his hut, with watchful ear, Awaits the sweet triumphant songs to hear, That shall proclaim the glorious jubilee When crippled thousands shall in truth be free. Come! rouse ye brothers, rouse! That's what we have so far...any new ideas are appreciated!

Good synopsis.. One thing I just reviewed, which may explain the globe in the image, walking in the Darthmouth entrance of BPL, the map room is on your right just prior to entering the courtyard. Also, with your 'back to the stairs', straight in front of you, on the western wall, is a clock (still working I believe) that is illuminated (lamplight?) from behind. Check it out on the old courtyard phtotos. edit: Monumental inscriptions Bates Hall has a coffered ceiling in a wide catena-arched barrel vault. Internet and power connections are discreetly placed under the large wooden research tablesArchitect Charles Follen McKim chose to have monumental inscriptions, similar to those found on basilicas and monuments in ancient Rome, in the entablature on each of the main building's three façades. On the south is inscribed: "MDCCCLII • FOUNDED THROUGH THE MUNIFICENCE AND PUBLIC SPIRIT OF CITIZENS;" on the east: "THE PUBLIC LIBRARY OF THE CITY OF BOSTON • BUILT BY THE PEOPLE AND DEDICATED TO THE ADVANCEMENT OF LEARNING • A.D. MDCCCLXXXVIII;" and on the north: "THE COMMONWEALTH REQUIRES THE EDUCATION OF THE PEOPLE AS THE SAFEGUARD OF ORDER AND LIBERTY". The last quotation has been attributed to the library's Board of Trustees. Another inscription, above the keystone of the central entrance, proclaims: "FREE TO ALL". Across the street from the central entrance to the library is a twentieth-century monument to the Lebanese-born poet and philosopher Kahlil Gibran who as a young immigrant educated himself in the Boston Public Library. The monument's inscription responds to the McKim building reading "IT WAS IN MY HEART TO HELP A LITTLE, BECAUSE I WAS HELPED MUCH". The text is excerpted from a letter enclosed with Gibran's generous bequest to the library. Is this the "his" mentioned for "in his drection"  ? (a male figure on the building frieze) hxxp://maps.bpl.org/ex/about/

Now there's a new idea!! Good thinkin' Trohn!! I never thought of it but you're right---In truth BE FREE may also be referring to the public library system in general --and that Boston had the very first FREE public lending library in the United States. And the figure on the frieze--could be, could be. Nice work.

shecrab wrote:: A green tower of lights The only explanation that has ever surfaced for this is the tower on Trinity church in Copley square, which is green due to copper patina. There is dispute as to whether the words mean a "green tower" or a tower of "green lights" or a "Tower on the Green with lights in it." Awesome post shecrab....I have one correction though. The green tower of lights is at the Old South Church notTrinity Church. Actualy there are two things at Old South Church that would fit with "green tower of lights" ...the first is the green copper cupola that you mentioned but there is another  tower at Old South Church that is lit up with green lights in the evening.

Ooops!! Sorry!! You're right...I had forgotten that one!

How about yet another stretch going along with the whole BPL theory. "Feel at Home."  =  "Feel a tome".  Grab yourself a book.  Wouldn't it be soooo cool if these are simply directions to a specific book in the BPL that basically shows you where the casque is?  Now that would be coool. [glow=red,2,300] Merry Christmas all! [/glow]

I had another thought: In truth be free... The motto for Harvard University is "Veritas".  Means "Truth."  In this light, you might interpret that line above as "IN HARVARD be free." In other words, the casque will be "freed" at Harvard. The closest thing we've come to a coliseum is also at Harvard. Also, that's where "all the letters" are there for us to see. And by letters you can mean Greek letters (frats/sororities--I know the don't exist on the Harvard campus but they might at MIT, etc.), the Muses (the "Literati"), the "men of letters" (anyone educated/intellectual) or actual letters--as in things you write to other people--as well as any other interpretation you can think of for "letters." The university would be the place for not only one or two of these interpretations, but ALL of them. I don't know what a green tower of lights might mean, or a middle section--though there are plenty of those in various places. There is another thought: the Harvard Lampoon operates from a replica of a Flemish Castle--a little turreted building. It does not look like anything resembling our box castle, but if that box castle is a METAPHOR for the word "castle", then it fits. Box has castle, Lampoon has castle. We already know of the connection between BP and the Lampoon--this seems like the kind of trickery he'd find amusing.

I think this verse goes with Image 11 because of the Greek relation. Thucydides and Xenophon are Greek scholars and Pandora is a character from Greek mythology this could be the Image to Verse connecter. I am not sure though that Boston is the right city. In the next few days I hope to get this image and verse out to a distant relative of mine who has lived in Boston since before most of us were even born. Hopefully he can help us determine if Boston is this location. In the meantime I will continue to investigate Toronto. I think the building on the box is Casa Loma and I do not know what I found but i remember running Thucydides and Xenophon through google and getting references to Toronto.

Here's a thought... I was noodling around on Image 11, and came up with a site that had an interesting building, the Grain Exchange building (next to Faneuil Hall). The building had a passing resemblance to our box castle in Image 11, and it also had some elements of that image in the facade. When I looked into the building, I discovered it was designed by H. H. Richardson, so I googled him--and discovered that he also designed Trinity Church ...where we have been looking. Many of the elements in the image are associated with Trinity, including the box castle, and the checkerboard images...and the collar images...So I googled the church again--and something jumped out at me.  This: Note the arrows. Not only do they repeat elements of Image 11--the round window, the checkerboard pattern on the dress, the collar designs (see the courtyard blocks!--I got excited when I saw that!)  but also they echo some of the verse elements: notably, your back to the stairs. Could THESE be the stairs? There look like plenty of places to bury a casque, and with other elements present, perhaps THIS is the area we're supposed to be in, not in the BPL--which is of course, right across the way from Trinity Church.  The "middle section" could mean the middle section of that courtyard--where there appears to be plants and trees. I don't know what's across the courtyard from the stairs, but there would be really only ONE way to "face the water and keep your back to the stairs" if that was the ocean or the river he refers to--but perhaps there is a fountain there as well so that might be the water you could face? This location might solve all our problems: Not only can it be located by using Xenophon and Thucydides on the library freize,it keeps us in Copley Square, where most people thought the verse led to, AND it satisfies a lot of the elements in the image. What do you all think?

I think the idea has merit, but I doubt he would bury it *right next* to the church -- too risky. Perhaps somewhere between it and the fountain.

Well, yes, that's what I meant. At some distance, but with your back to the stairs, you can see quite a bit of the enclosed gardens there.

shecrab wrote:: Well, yes, that's what I meant. At some distance.... That would have to be 5 steps in the area of His direction.

How very true!!!

Green tower of lights?  This is a green dayboard in Boston Harbor. hxxp://users.rcn.com/dhkaye/Boston%20Ha ... BEACON.jpg

The is a huge blue beacon of light across the country this morning and that is a big NY GIANTS FOOTBALL HELMET!!!!!!!

A green tower of lights, hmm... since we're all looking for a "green" tower... i thought about looking for a different meaning for green.  And Green is the color of Islam.  So maybe there is a Islamic Tower, or a Mosque.  Or something of that nature.  I tried google street view for Boston, it's very helpful!  Check it out! -regulus

Ok...  LONG SHOT...  Just trying to think VERY outside the box: What if the phrase "A green tower of lights" were two separate phrases hidden in one line??? It COULD [like I said long shot] mean: Something Green & A Tower of Lights Two object.  Let me run with this for a moment.  "Tower" could be play on words for "something large" or "Monster" as in "Green Monster".  Fenway's wall has been known as "The Green Monster" long before the official mascot became "Wally". The Stadium lights could be considered "A Tower of lights"  ALSO, the Citco sign outside the park could be called "A Tower of lights".  It was around the that these were buried that the Citco sign became a matter of public controversey.  Citco wanted to remove it because of the cost of upkeep, it was attempted to get it put on the national registry of protected landmarks, which as far as I know never happened, although a local historical society managed to save it at the time.  It is just as much a landmark of Boston as any building would be. Farther down in the verse "coliseum" could be a reference to Fenway.  Fenway doesn't look like a coliseum, but if "arena" or "ball park" could be substituted for that word it might work. Does anyone else here do a form of crossword known as "cryptic crosswords" this type of word play I'm trying to use here is similar to clues in a cryptic. I'ld rather throw this out and have it shot down than not share and have it be right.  Fenway is certainly not close to Copley, but it seems like landmarks in the previous finds were not always right near the location.

The following line "In the Middle Section" could be something like: Outside the arena, middle section of the wall" could be a starting point to start walking from.  It seems late in the verse to be a starting point.  A thinking point though. --Ringo

Clue on the Question of T and X Read this from 18th Century English writer Horace Walpole: "The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru." Hmmm..  Boston is North of NY.  These lines could MERELY be telling us to start in Boston? **Entire Text of Walpole can be found at Project Gutenberg *** Here is the link: hxxp://www.gutenberg.org/files/12074/12074-8.txt

The Horace Walpole text has been discussed at length.  As well as Fenway.  Wow you are quick.  It took us a while to come up with those. Besides the fact that those Greek names are on the facade of Boston Public Library, HP's text would actually make better sense because on that wall, Thucy is south of Xeno.  Where it loses me is, you would still have to find a Thucydides somewhere in Boston in order to take five steps in his direction .  Maybe you can read it differently

Steps could have multiple meanings.  The first meaning is going to be "paces" but I have already seen others to have thought of "stairs". Being a city it could mean "streets," "blocks," or "stops" [as in the T]  Fenway is on the Greenline as is Copley to use my T theory.  However, They are only two stops away from each other. I myself am not totaly convinced the reference is to the outside of the building, but perhaps to artwork in the building.  I also wonder if perhaps there is more than one place where the two names are within the city. Words can often have two dictionary meanings, but in a quest of this sort a metaphorical meaning MAY be just as valid. {*Does anyone remember the old computer game Zork??  In the second Zork there was a room described as having "oddly shaped angles" and that was all you knew....  It felt like a maze but after the game kept saying "At this rate you'll never get to the first base" I eventually figured out that I was supposed to run in a circle, the "odd angles" were a baseball diamond.  *} I'm trying to use some strange logic, and without standing there I can't let my mind wander as much as I would like.  I wish still lived in NH I'ld just hop in my car tomorrow after work and walk around the BPL. --Ringo

Ringo - I like the way you think. I'm addicted to cryptic crosswords, and the thought did cross my mind once or twice, but little came of it. But that may say more about my mind than about your idea. I'm in the camp that thinks "Small of scale" is a reference to fish, and that "Cast in copper" means "on the back of a penny." It does help to be open to different interpretations. These are riddles, after all.

Forrest: I'm glad you like my thinking, and I like the examples you just used.  Riddles are an interesting form of word game, and are nearly as old as language itself.  Stephen King describes a riddle game in The Dark Tower similar to the same one used by Tolkien in the Hobbit.  I seem to remember the Canturbury Tales containing riddles, and you can keep going backward to the Greeks with the Sphinx.  And Riddles are ALWAYS obvious in hindsight.  Remember there is a difference between a riddle and a joke:  A riddle uses logic. Once it's solved many people will groan.  I've been searching for photos online of the Fenway area, but I can't find any of the angle I'm looking for.  I just need to get down there on my own...  Luckily it's not an unreasonable drive for me, just no time in the forseeable future, nor money to put in the gas tank.

Unknown: Once it's solved many people will groan. Indeed. I groaned when someone pointed out the "obvious" (in hindsight) fact that "compass" in V8 referred to the "North Point Lighthouse" because (wait for it) compasses "point north." BP had an evil sense of humor. There is also the SELOY acrostic, which seems a little out of place in this hunt but of undeniable importance. Perhaps there are other instances of wordplay we haven't discovered yet.

Forrest: SELOY acrostic

Oh, sorry: S ails pass by night E ven in darkness L ike moonlight in teardrops O ver the tall grass Y ears pass, rain falls. St. Augustine's Fountain of Youth Park has been many hunters' top pick for the V9 casque for years now, and recently an employee of the FOY park pointed out that the last 5 lines in V9 spell out "SELOY," which is the name of the Native American village once on the site. This fact was in brochures and plaques at the time BP was burying his casques, and he would have seen it.

Maybe we should return to shecrab's recent post on Harvard as a possibility for the V3 casque. What Harvard has going for it: "In truth be free": Harvard's motto (or at least its crest) is "VERITAS." "all the letters": Greek organizations? Men of letters? Something more literal on campus? All of the above? "middle section": Harvard is located in MIDDLESEX COUNTY, Massachusetts. Harvard Lampoon is based there. Is there a green tower of some sort there?

Unknown: From FB- "In the area of his direction" is grammatically ambiguous - who is "he"? Xenophon? Thucydides? I move "neither," because if BP meant T or X it would have been clear from the verse's composition. I'll suggest we take this discussion to the V3 board . I guess any verse or riddle can be ambiguous by definition.  But here the subject of the first four lines is obviously Thucydides. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction or, If HE is north of Xenophon, take five steps in Thucydides direction .  We can cut it up differently and say If Thucydides is north of Xenophon, take five steps. Then, In the area of his direction, a green tower of lights . Either way, Mr T is still the subject, no? edit: waiting for my crash course on grammer.

boogieman wrote:: The last thought "In the area of his direction, a green tower of lights" is not a sentence or a complete thought; it is not likely broken up this way. More inclined to have the first four lines act as one.

another thought... Perhaps "his" means "historic."  He used single letters in the Clevland M, B, and L.  Why not a shorter word that could be used to clue us in the wrong direction on purpose?  I only thought of this because of talk of schools, and my school used three letter codes for class descriptions. HIS was the designation for History classes. I that theory was correct, it should be in the direction of "the history building" if we are talking about a college campus.  It could also mean "a historic building" or "where something historic happened" LASTLY: Remember my suggestion of "five steps" being stops on the T.  MAYBE thinking "Five Stops along the freedom trail."

Unknown: I guess any verse or riddle can be ambiguous by definition.  But here the subject of the first four lines is obviously Thucydides. ... edit: waiting for my crash course on grammer. With pleasure. The possessive pronoun "his" requires a male antecedent, and there are two options: T and X. Note that if we were to replace either name with a female name, it would be equally "obvious" for "his" to refer to T or to X. For example: If Thucydides is North of Cleopatra Take five steps In the area of his direction Here, everyone would agree "his" refers to T. If Cleopatra is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Here, everyone would agree "his" refers to X. See what I mean? We can't tell which (if either) of T or X is the antecedent. So I vote neither of them.

While suggesting alternate meanings and "double meanings": The lines: "Eighteenth day Twelfth hour" Perhaps a clue to direction as well as a clue to placing this in Boston.  It seems late in the verse to be a simple "hey in case you didn't guess this is in Boston."  I'm not sure how I want to interpret "eighteenth day,"  However "twelfth hour" could mean simply "12 0'clock" before you say "duh" think about sitting with a friend and saying "look at 12 o'clock"  We use clock directions as slang for "look there" all the time in conversation without thinking of it.  It could mean from a certain place "look at 12 o'clock."  ALSO, consider a clock face to be a compass, in which case it could be used as a metaphor for "North." I'm wondering if perhaps something besides Paul Rever's ride took place on the 18th of a month.  If August 18th was important it could clue in a reference to the August theme.  Perhaps there is a plaque in a park somewhere with that date on it.  I found photos of plauqes in Boston but so far no hits on this train of thought. To give a clue as to what I am thinking, look at the lines in verse 12: "Fence and fixture Central too" It clued in that half way between the fence post and the electrical picture was where it was buried.  Although I have no clue if this is really a good theory, I have no clue where such a plaque might be, I have no clue what park, etc.... I'm trying to take guess at things I have no yet seen suggested, no matter how out there my theories might be in the hope that something sticks with something else.

I obviously agree with Forrest: "His" is PROBABLY neither.  My theory may be wrong, and potentially too vauge, but it seems with current knowledge just as likely as either T or X. I think in riddles that perhaps proper grammar as used in the lesson Forrest just gave isn't always needed.  I think it would pain any author to use immpropper grammar, BP might have used something that didn't follow the rules to throw us off a little.  Proper grammar would never allow "L sits and left" [from verse 12] to mean "lincoln" it's more like current text message use.  Yet in riddle talk it fits just fine.

Forrest: I really like the way you bounce back quick ideas on everything, so here's another one for your consideration [and really everyone else of course]. What if T and X are being used at metaphors for something else?  [I do know I like to throw the word "metaphor" out on EVERYTHING, but I hope to be right on one of these] Perhaps insight into their lives will lead to something.  I never learned about either man in school, so my only source is wikipedia.  Correct me where I misunderstand... Thucydides was a historian.  Xenophon was a political philosopher. I don't know what to go on...  my mind is reeling in too many directions.  However, there may be something historic north of something related to politics.  Perhaps a building used by the historical society?  Perhaps city hall?  Perhaps Faneuil Hall?  I like the later, and may relate better.  Quincy Market has those pillars that in my opinion "look Greek". So Forrest, bounce some ideas back and I'll get my mind turning some more.  I obviously can't always be right by suggesting everything is a metaphor, but perhaps one of my ideas will become helpful. --Ringo

Trohn wrote:: The last thought "In the area of his direction, a green tower of lights" is not a sentence or a complete thought; it is not likely broken up this way. More inclined to have the first four lines act as one. Trohn, In verse, there are no sentences.  And usually, as like these verses, the reader completes the thought. I see what you are saying FB.  I was looking at it differently.  It basically comes back to the word "IF" again.  Take that word out of there and you have the name of the person for which direction to travel in. Thucydides is north Of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction What "IF" not?

boogie wrote:: I see what you are saying FB.  I was looking at it differently.  It basically comes back to the word "IF" again. Ringo wrote:: What if T and X are being used at metaphors for something else? I disagree, boogs. There is still complete ambiguity over the antecedent if you remove "IF." Think "Cleopatra" for each one in turn and you'll see. I like it. To continue this line of thought, perhaps T represents a history building and X represents a political science / philosophy building. If we were to locate a campus where the History Dept. happens to be just north of the PoliSci Dept (c. 1981), maybe that would nail it. It wouldn't hurt if there were a statue of some guy between them pointing at, oh, a patch of dirt with a big "X" on it.

My own reading Boogie is that this is a case of logic: " I this is true, you are in the right place" and "If not, you've got to keep looking" My thinking is that there may be more than one place with both names present.  The definition of "North" appears to have been debated, and I think is likely still up for farthur debate.  Does it mean map direction, or one is above the other? I've been trying to find other references to either name, and it seems near impossible to find anything outside of searches for books.  I'm probably just looking in the wrong places.

Once again I like your thinking Forrest.  If we can make a guess what college or university to look at if MAY be easy to find out where buildings were at one point.  My school had plaques on walls saying "former X Dept" where appropriate.  Also, we had access to old catalogs going back to the 1960,s at the school library, and those all had old maps of the school.  Not that I ever had a use for such materials...  It was fun to go and find out what classes were offered twenty years earlier...  but if most schools hang on to such things...  A trip with an educated guess may lead in the direction we're discussing. Also: There may be a good chance that those buildings are still being used for said purpose...

ringo, i know it's a lot to read, but a lot of this has been discussed in the Image 11 thread also, as that is the picture we think is boston........it's long but it has a lot of information. i really love reading about boston, and even tho i'm trying to zone in on charleston now, when you all discuss boston i keep being drawn back. the one thing i am trying to keep in mind, if i am recalling it correctly, the ones that were solved, the first lines of the poems named streets and buildings close by or something on a building. i believe they were both historians and we discussed it just being "greek" or greek architecture,  or just the "t" or the "x" and even "ex". image 11 thread is over 40 pages! but something we said on there, since you know the area, might give you an "aha!" moment, i hope. maybe something from the picture stands out to you that we don't see. i'm still getting the different parks and areas confused but i'm sure (if they aren't found) then i'll eventually know these places as if i've lived there, lol i like your idea of "12" being straight ahead.

i like the idea of the campus buildings! i remember learning truth tables in math class........if this then that.... so maybe start at the math building and go toward the history building like forest said! truth tables---in truth be free, hehe lol, at least i'm offa babe ruth

I've read a great deal [although not all] of the image 11 thread as well.  One thing that I have noticed in most of the threads in these boards is that there are links people placed that no longer work, which has made trying to follow the paths of logic already present difficult, although I am trying to not purposefully repeat information already given. Right now I'm really wishing I had a day to just drive down and take some photographs, but that's not going to happen until at least March, but probably more like May or even June. The first thought on the image I had, which I have already seen posted, but I will repeat so you know one of the directions my mind is in: The squares in image 11 made me think of overhead views of either buildings, city blocks, or city parks.  Or at least a couple of them do.  The square within a square could be the BPL, with it's courtyard.  Having stood within that courtyard, in fact having set up lights in that coutyard for an event only two years ago I will say that I am 90% sure or even better that that courtyard is not going to be the casque location.  There is no place that BP could have stood in that square where he would not have risked being seen from multiple directions.  Security is maybe tighter now than 25 years ago, but even 25 years ago it could have taken minutes for him to be stopped and at the very least questioned in that space.  I believe that space had some kind of remodling done in recent years that would have comprimised the casque were it there...  The location could be a great starting or mid point of the trek to it's location.  It would be a great answer to "all the letter"  One of the murals inside might even explain the "Face the Water" the same as a fountain or the ocean would.  It doesn't make sense as a burial spot though.  That is my opinion.  Perhaps something will lightup changes my mind.  The square above the one I feel could represent the library I think may be an intersection of streets, or a path through a park.  The line of thinking Forrest and I are tossing around makes me wonder if it's a Quad at a college. I wouldn't want to dig at a college or university without being REALLY REALLY sure, and not without some permission in writing.

Slappy; Truth tables?  I hadn't thought of other meanings to that line yet [this is what brainstorming is about :-) ] Have you ever taken a class in Philosophy/  Truth tables are used in intro classes as well as logic classes. As for campus buildings: Harvard seems a good guess, and I just did a search.  The philosophy building is Emerson.  History is PROBABLY spread over several buildings, but the head of the department is in Robinson, just north across a quad.  The philosophy building has a long history there, and would have been the philosophy building in 1981.  I don't know how to find out if History was in Robinson that far back.  We should seek out the same information from other Boston colleges, but considering the Colesium Harvard is likely a best bet.

ringo there isn't any "logic" to anything i do! you'll see once you read some of my posts, lol. luckily,  i have logical people around me who beat it into me. just kidding!! they only try to, lol. and also, the smart ones here (on this board) tend to keep me grounded. (mostly ) i had that problem too, with some of the sites disappearing, but hopefully got the gist of the threads.

If I see a picture I think will be useful, *usually* I will toss it into a bin at my geocities site, then link to it from here. That way I know it will be around for a long, long time.

Forrest: Glad to hear that someone has some kind of archive going.  If there is a particular one I feel the need to look at do you mind me asking to re-post then? --Ringo

I showed this verse to a co-worker today.  They looked at it and said "Feel At Home" sounded like it meant "home is where the heart is". Has that been suggested? I don't know where to run with that.  I don't think it could be "heart of the city" but perhaps heart of the park it's in? Boston's state house was called "The Hub of the Universe". That meaning echoes the line "In the middle section." ** I also want to appologize for bringing up things already mentioned.  I've not meant to.  I started a notebook of ideas being passed around here so I can try to minimize repeated ideas. If repeating others here becomes an issue please tell me before it becomes an issue.  **

You can ask, but I was referring to the images I included in my own posts. The majority of those are still there and visible.

While not buildings, we do have the muses at BPL. hxxp://www.bpl.org/guides/chavannes.htm

bclews: Yep the muses, I'm pretty sure that's what I was thinking of that I mentioned in a different thread.  But the picture on the BPL website is too far away to see any of the details of the mural.  I've been hoping to find a better photograph of it.  I've been trying to find something somewhere that the fairy in Image #11 might match up with, and my mind is wrapped around the art at BPL.

boogieman wrote:: Trohn, In verse, there are no sentences.  And usually, as like these verses, the reader completes the thought. I see what you are saying FB.  I was looking at it differently.  It basically comes back to the word "IF" again.  Take that word out of there and you have the name of the person for which direction to travel in. Thucydides is north Of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction What "IF" not? In computer programing if/then logic works on the premis that if there is no "else" clause the word else is implied to just bypass the "then" clause and keep going.  Since this wouldn't work in the case of the verse, we have to assume there is no else.  T MUST be North of X to even start. PERHAPS: Bp might have known that someone could get close on the Cleveland one with the painting alone?  The if/then logic works like this: Engraved in stone you will notice in the Cleveland find X was above or "north" of T in the engraving.  The implication I get is simply: If T is NOT north (above) X you have to find another verse to match this painting" Obviously T an X are clues to Verse 3's hunt but it's also trying to tell the Cleveland hunter who is lucky enough to get close with the painting alone to match a different verse to the painting. JUST A POSSIBILTY!

Er.... It doesn't make any difference whether Thucydides is North of Xenophon because you might have to go in any direction ---let me explain: if T is North of X, then Thucydides is North, and Xenophon is South. If the "his"  refers to Xenophon, you go south, if it refers to Thucydides, you go North.  You have only two choices. So:  IF T is north of X, then go EITHER five steps north or five steps south. BUT...if Thucydides is NOT north of Xenophon, then it does not necessarily imply that Xenophon is North of Thucydides.  Xenophon may be ANY direction from Thucydides -- North, South, East, or West. That way, if the "his" refers to Thucydides, you can go five steps in ANY direction, and it would be the same for Xenophon if the "his" referred to him. And BTW: you can also add two other directions into this mix....UP and DOWN. If "north" refers to "up," then it's opposite is "down." So perhaps, "five steps" means GO UP (or DOWN) FIVE STAIRS. Note also that it says five steps IN THE AREA of his direction . That means, literally, that you must be IN THE AREA already. It does not say "in to the area" or "toward the area," it says IN.  If you were giving someone directions you would not say it this way--you would say "take five steps north," or "take five steps toward the north," implying that you were not there yet. Preiss wrote this as if you would already BE IN the area, and need only take five steps somewhere.

"AREA" can also mean 'field of expertise' so if one would take five steps 'in the area of his direction' you would take five steps into something related to his subject or teachings....

Trohn wrote:: "AREA" can also mean 'field of expertise' so if one would take five steps 'in the area of his direction' you would take five steps into something related to his subject or teachings.... yep... Ringo touched on that earlier.  Nice thought.  Area of Politics or Philosophy?

Thucydides and Xenophon were both historians. Thucy only wrote one book, the History of the Peloponnesian Wars. He is considered a benchmark military historian and his writing is required reading at the Naval War College.  Xenophon, OTOH, was more broadly drawn. He was considered to be an expert in horsemanship, (may have been the original "horse whisperer") and he wrote more about everyday life in Greece. His greatest work, The Anabasis, is about the march of the Ten Thousand (Persians) during the same war that TH. wrote about. Interestingly enough, both were Athenians, but one fought for Athens, and the other for Sparta.

shecrab wrote:: His greatest work, The Anabasis, is about the march of the Ten Thousand (Persians) during the same war that TH. wrote about. I believe the Ten Thousand were Greek mercenaries that were hired to fight in a Persian army.

You are correct, digger. My answer was unclear.

If Thucydides is north Of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction I'm not sure that I can clearly articulate this. Bear with me... In mathematical terms, "is" would be =.  Therefore it would read, If T=N. There is no "direction" associated with X. "In the area of his direction"..."his" is  a possessive. Only one person in this verse has a direction-Thucydides. In addition "of xenophon" is a prepositional phrase. Therefore, I think the "his" has to be referring to Thucydides.

You just might have articulated that phrase better than you think.  The thing that seems to bother us most is that both names are men, so "his" could be either of them.  You probably noticed I'm a huge fan of placing a second meaning on a word, your "replace is with equal" works for me. but we then still need to determine if T is literally his name, a statue, or an abstract that could represent him.  I like your thinking. ---- I know that Old South Church has been mentioned.  I just found the most awsome photo of this place.  Take a look: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/shyto/2241181044/ Out of literally hundreds of photos of that church that I've looked at that just is AMAZING. Also created a new analogy in my head: What if "green tower of lights" meant an analogy for "light of God"?  I don't buy it because I don't think BP would get religious on us.  However, like everything else I don't think the concept should be swept aside.  Perhaps replace the word "tower" with "steeple"?

Another "green tower of lights" photo.  This one shows the tower on one side of "Old South Church" at night.  This MAY be a trick of light due to happenstance on the part of the photographer.  But it APPEARS to have green light coming out of it.  I will try to find a better night time photo of this particular part of the church.  Maybe someone here has already seen better night time photos of this?  The angle the photo is taken from and the distance really could just make this an "accident" so know that before you look: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/leecullivan/957318217/

Well, if "steps" actually means paces then the ONLY direction that would mean anything is South.  When you area looking at the wall you are facing West -- five steps West takes you nowhere.  Turn around and five steps East also takes you nowhere.  Turn North and again five steps takes you nowhere.  However, five steps to the South takes you to the edge of the building and the street corner.  It's not much of a landmark, but it is a specific place to begin the hunt. Of course, if "five steps" means anything else.....

I forgot to take the theory all the way to the end. If we are to go in Thucydides direction, BP is not saying to go toward Thucydides. He is saying to go north (the direction associated with Thucydides (T=North).  But as someone pointed out, 5 steps north doesn't take you anywhere....unless steps mean something else....

Also keep in mind "five steps" isn't a very far direction unless the verse is saying "you start here and you're darn close already"  The nearest patch of dirt to even dig in is at the very least Coply accross the street from the Library and crossing the street is certainly more than five steps.  Unless you count the courtyard, and there is very little chance he could have hidden it there. I know that it has been brought up that renovation was done to the courtyard meaning if it was there that it's not now.  Haven't been in that courtyard, I highly doubt he could have buried it without hassle.  I'm for now assuming it was someplace else.

Ringo wrote:: Unless you count the courtyard, and there is very little chance he could have hidden it there. I know that it has been brought up that renovation was done to the courtyard meaning if it was there that it's not now.  Haven't been in that courtyard, I highly doubt he could have buried it without hassle.  I'm for now assuming it was someplace else. Shelock Holmes says that once you eliminate the impossible, then you are left with the possible, no matter how unlikely. Steps I believe does not indicate distance, but literally five steps taking you into the building. (it is five steps up into the library from the side walk - this door takes you directly onto the courtyard) The courtyard has water, stairs, and a place for people to pass by. It is next to the map (and globe) room. And the courtyard IS the middle section. Sorry to keep bringing up the discovery, but if you try to make the clues fit a place that has been undisturbed, you are not treasure hunting - you are chasing rainbows.

Thron: I agree with you. and yet disagree. Thank you for the Sherlock analogy, because it is VERY true. The ONLY reason I don't like the courtyard theory is because I think it would have been impossible for him to have buried it there.  I tend to think BP would not have wanted to be seen burying the casques.  Forget for a moment that the courtyard has been remodeled.  It is only accessible through the building, which means he would have had to bury it during library hours.  There is no part of the courtyard that is not obscured from view.  There are windows looking in on all four sides.  The courtyard is also very small, but the view out into it is great.  The few times I have been in the library I can't help but look into the courtyard not just to see the courtyard but to view the architecture of the building itself. There are things that would make a great fit, the archways within the building may be a good match for the archway or portal behind the figure in image #11.  "middle section" certainly puts the courtyard there.  Also the square shape in image could suggest the courtyard. I'm not concerned with the work that was done to the courtyard, I'm concerned with the fact that BP would have literally been out in the open, and very visible.  Because of the likely hood of "getting away with it" I rule it out. I LOVE the library, and when I do get to Boston I will certainly visit, and try to photograph the courtyard.  I'm willing to continue to explore it as an option, but I would want some proof not that he DID but that he COULD HAVE.  The "could have done it" is in my opinion such a slimm chance.  Does anyone know of any photographs online that show the courtyard at all before the renovation?  I wouldn't care if they were arial view, from a window, or from within the courtyard.  I'm concerned with photos from preferably 25 years ago.  If such photos disprove me then I think we seriously explore the courtyard theory.  If there's even a 50% he could have gotten away with it then it should be considered a PRIME location.  I know that if I were in his shows the idea of planting this item in the middle of an important library would tickle me pink. I'm going to spend a good deal of my afternoon looking for library photos.  If someone beats me to it share the links. Throhn, I'm with you unless we can prove it impossible.

Thohn [and who like the BPL] : I have so far found only one photo of the courtyard that can give an idea of the area back then.  This claims to be from the 1970s but there's nothing that really defines it as such.  HOWEVER if may clue in that you could be right.  Notice that there's some trees in this photo.  I would like to find some better images.  However, your point is well taken because there may have been enough coverage from folliage to cause an obstructed view and allow for a burial there.  I'm going to continue digging around for better photos from that time.  I'm still not convinced it would have been feasible to bury it unnoticed, but I'm starting to lean towards your theory.  But I want more proof that would have been possible before I'm willing to fully jump on board with it.

Sorry, forgot the link: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/rnolan1087/426090098/

I'd been staying out of this one, but then I had a few thoughts I was wondering if could be disproved: The Thucydides and Xenophon -- I was writing them out as TX, then remebered the Greek Frat my brother used to belong to:  Theta Xi, which I think is still quartered along the very diggable area of Beacon Street. "ALL THE LETTERS ARE HERE TO SEE" -- All the Frats on the Beacon Street row? Face the waters -- my god, one wrong step and you fall in the Charles. And, (of course this must have been brought up before, I just can't find it!)  whose motto is "In Truth, Be Free"?** **(In doing a little more digging, I realized we might be looking at Harvard -- which has the Latin motto "VERITAS" or "Truth".  Combine this with the possible expression "The Truth with set you Free" (John 8:32), and we might be looking for an area more near Harvard (not MIT) fraternity row that somehow refereces a John-someone-or-the-other . . .) Also, at this point I think it is VERY important to note that at least two of the people  (Sean Kelly and Ted Man, both listed as Authors) worked on "National Lampoon" -- which is the spin-off of Harvard Lampoon.  (LITerature BY 'LAMP'LIGHT -- where LIGHT = Humorous?) Still digging (on the internet)

I'd been staying out of this one, but then I had a few thoughts I was wondering if could be disproved: The Thucydides and Xenophon -- I was writing them out as TX, then remebered the Greek Frat my brother used to belong to:  Theta Xi, which I think is still quartered along the very diggable area of Beacon Street. "ALL THE LETTERS ARE HERE TO SEE" -- All the Frats on the Beacon Street row? Face the waters -- my god, one wrong step and you fall in the Charles. And, (of course this must have been brought up before, I just can't find it!)  whose motto is "In Truth, Be Free"?** **(In doing a little more digging, I realized we might be looking at Harvard -- which has the Latin motto "VERITAS" or "Truth".  Combine this with the possible expression "The Truth with set you Free" (John 8:32), and we might be looking for an area more near Harvard (not MIT) fraternity row that somehow refereces a John-someone-or-the-other . . .) Also, at this point I think it is VERY important to note that at least two of the people  (Sean Kelly and Ted Man, both listed as Authors) worked on "National Lampoon" -- which is the spin-off of Harvard Lampoon.  (LITerature BY 'LAMP'LIGHT -- where LIGHT = Humorous?) Still digging (on the internet)

MEOW: Perhaps the LATIN for "In Truth, Be Free"??? Many schools and fraternities use Latin for their mottos.  My grandfather used to drill the phrase "Acta Non Verba" into me as a kid that comes from the Merchant Marine Academy. Perhaps "In Truth Be Free" is written in latin on an old public school.  I like your thoughts on Greek organizations.  Somebody has mentioned that Harvard doesn't have fraternities, but something to remember honor societies usually use Greek letters like a Fraternity does, so I don't want to rule our Harvard yet either. Could "green tower" be a tower covered in Ivy or Moss? nice visual image. As Ivy can cause damage in older walls, could it be possible that ivy was removed from a structure and no longer be "green"  Ivy is difficult to remove without causing more damage, but it the theory at least POSSIBLE?

MEOW: Perhaps the LATIN for "In Truth, Be Free"??? Many schools and fraternities use Latin for their mottos.  My grandfather used to drill the phrase "Acta Non Verba" into me as a kid that comes from the Merchant Marine Academy. Perhaps "In Truth Be Free" is written in latin on an old public school.  I like your thoughts on Greek organizations.  Somebody has mentioned that Harvard doesn't have fraternities, but something to remember honor societies usually use Greek letters like a Fraternity does, so I don't want to rule our Harvard yet either. Could "green tower" be a tower covered in Ivy or Moss? nice visual image. As Ivy can cause damage in older walls, could it be possible that ivy was removed from a structure and no longer be "green"  Ivy is difficult to remove without causing more damage, but it the theory at least POSSIBLE?

Unknown: He is saying to go north Er, no he is not saying GO NORTH. That's what I was explaining earlier. He is saying take five steps IN HIS DIRECTION.  If you identify "his direction" as North, then he is saying take five steps IN THE NORTH. There's a difference between GO TO THE NORTH (proceed in a northerly direction,) and take five "steps" (whatever steps are) while IN THE NORTH. Big difference.

Last night I went from "Holy Crap!" to just "Crap".  My mother-in-law was over to watch a movie and we watched The Gameplan with Dwayne Johnson.  Cute movie.  It takes place in Boston and I remember when they were filming it at Gillette Stadium. During one exterior shot they showed the skyline of Boston at night -- that's the Pru on the right, there's the Hancock Building in the middle, and ("Holy Crap!") what's that tower of green lights on the left?!  "That's got to be it", I'm thinking.  We've been looking during the daytime and it needs to be night to see the lights. I remembered, however, that someone (Ringo) had posted about a weather tower in Boston that he had remembered as being green, but his researched had shown that it is blue in fair weather.  Also, it was not lit in the early 80s so BP probably wouldn't have seen it. Was this that tower?  Yep.  ("Crap.") It's on top of the old John Hancock Building right beside the new Hancock Building. Now I suppose that since it was off BP didn't know that it was blue (others across the country use green), but that's a long shot.  Also, John Hancock and "truth" and "free" certainly go together. So I wasn't going to even bother to post this, but I thought perhaps it would trigger some other thoughts. Crap... Here's a shot of that scene -- hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/2263374968/ Close up -- hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/bclews/2262578345/

I didn't think we were all looking for daytime in particular, I think we were just looking for the three words to fit SOMETHING, I saw a post where the Christmas tree was suggested which would certainly be a nighttime event. Bclews: I think you could have been spotting a light coming out of the Old South Church [also near the two Hankcock buildings and Prud].  I ALMOST posted a photo of that at night, because I found two different one on Flickr that show the light lookin green.  However, most of the night photos of Boston at night I have found show a yellow or white light coming from the church tower.  I took the two photos I found of a green light to be possible weird conditions the nights of the photographs, or reflections off something else.  If you are telling me that you also saw a green light in the skyline in that same area then perhaps it is lit green sometimes, and yellow others?  I don't know what to infer.  But see if this looks like your green light: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/noisecollusion/211466570/ Here is a photo on Flickr of the Weather Beacon lit at night: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterscript/448329549/ [My information on the weather beacon not being re-lit until 1983 came from Wikipedia so MAY not be correct, but you will see the light is clearly blue in the photo NOT the green I thought I remembered seeing as a kid] I like your thought process a lot.  I don't have time to research this because I have to jet to work, but with the weather beacon unlit, could the top of the Old Hankcock look green?  I think the metal around the top is copper, and copper does look green with age?  I haven't thought to look at photos of it unlit or imagine it unlit until your suggestion. Running to work, look forward to some more brainstorming later.

Don't forget that at M.I.T., there is a building called "Green Tower." Designed by I.M. Pei. This could also be the Green Tower of lights... hxxp://eng.archinform.net/projekte/1511.htm

bclews wrote:: what's that tower of green lights on the left?!  "That's got to be it", I'm thinking.  We've been looking during the daytime and it needs to be night to see the lights. Have you ever read the first Hardy Boys book, "The Tower Treasure"?  They were looking in the wrong place much of the novel based on a clue of "in the old tower."  Not going to spoil the ending but they had the wrong "old tower."  Good analogy for what we're thinking about right now.  If you've read that book think about the line I'm drawing with this.  I don't want to post a potential spoiler of the book in case anyone here like me enjoys reading those classics and has missed it.  The real meaning of "old tower" may just be a thought process to use with this? Someone tell me some protocol on trying to be more clear here.  It feels inappropriate to spoil a book someone else might read, but it also feels like I'm holding back something by not speaking my mind. --Ringo

Let it rip!  It would only spoil it if the casque is found.  Otherwise, nobody will remember it forever.  Let's get our priorities in check.

If this were a Hardy Boys forum, I might object, but it ain't so let's hear it!

Are you trying to say that "old tower" is an ancient truck with a hook and chain for pulling cars?

shecrab wrote:: Are you trying to say that "old tower" is an ancient truck with a hook and chain for pulling cars? SHECRAB: I LOVE your idea.  Don't towers normally have yellow lights, they do around here.  Maybe we're looking for one with green lights???  Hahaha.  You just MADE my morning. Well, as I've been on my way to and from work lately I've been looking for "types of buildings" that could fit "tower" OR "metal walls" going for "general type of building" rather than specific to the hunt as a brainstorming technique.  As I drove past one particular structure the Hardy Boys just hit me and so I didn't want to take credit for this other than as a connect the dots.  And to farther credit where credit is due my current brainstorming mode started because of bclews comment about us all looking for something we might not see during the day.  We obviously need to think differently: So: Hardy Boys -- They were using a clue that reffered to "old tower" and ASSUMED it meant the mansion which had at one time an addition put on it, so there was both an old and new tower.  They can never find what they are looking until they happened to be accross town at the railroad station and noticed two water towers...  One new and one old.  Their treasure ended up being inside the old water tower. Although I don't believe OUR search is for a water tower I will say that most of the water towers around here are Green and made of metal. [which could refer to "metal walls" and the ones that are near the airport all have lights on top. So what lesson do we get from this?  So far no one has made any clear assumptions of knowing the tower BP is reffering to.  But I think we need to modify our search parameters and not assume it is a particular building YET  Too many ideas have been suggested with so far nothing concreete leeping out.  Think about the following question:  What TYPES of ITEMS [note I did not say buildings] could be considered poetically to be a TOWER?  Here is the list I have from my brainstorming session the past few days.  Note, I am not holding back on things that "might not be in Boston."  Anyone else's answers:  Bonus points for something that is Green, is a tower AND has lights.  Most of mine don't fit all three on first glance. -- Skyscraper -- Water Tower -- Silo -- Observation Tower [such as at an airport] -- Really Tall Tree [The only tall tree in a park, or REALLY tall tree amongst smaller ones, or as already suggested by someone else: X-MAS Tree] -- Lamp Post -- Church Steeple -- Smokestack -- Stadium Lights [Also the big lighting towers at the end of a runway] -- A Monument -- Some bridges, especially drawbridges, can appear "tower like" -- Something NAMED Tower that might not be.  Tower Records comes to mind.  Any other "Tower" places that aren't VISUALLY a "tower" in design that anyone is a where of??

belfry, castle, citadel, cloud buster, column, fort, fortification, fortress, high rise, keep, lookout, mast, minaret, monolith, obelisk, pillar, refuge, skyscraper, spire, steeple, stronghold, turret cover, den, harbor, haven, hideaway, hideout, hole, ivory tower, port, preserve, refuge, retreat, safe house, safety, sanctuary, security, shelter alcazar, chateau, citadel, donjon, fasthold, fastness, fort, fortification, fortress, hold, keep, manor, mansion, palace, peel, safehold, seat, stronghold, tower, villa All synonyms for TOWER from a thesaurus. I was somewhat surprised at the middle group--which defined tower as "refuge". Especially since "hole" was to my way of thinking the antonym for "tower." And I don't think BP got that esoteric in defining tower. Interestingly enough, Logan Airport does not have the usual type of Control Tower--it has an H-shaped structure that is not very tower-like, and not green. But here's another thought: a 'tower of lights' could mean the type of light tower that is found on a drag raceway--that's what it's called--a "tower". The lights descend from red to green to count down the beginning of the race. Is there a raceway of some kind near Boston's North End? I doubt there's one in the Back Bay area; besides the Marathon, I mean--which to my knowledge, does not have a tower of any kind to start it. But is there another race-car track nearby? One that might have a "tower" to signal the beginning of the races? This might also be considered the "coliseum" and "with metal walls" could also apply to either the wall around the race course or the cars themselves.

Whether the tower is a silo or a control tower, I think that first it has to be green, and then add the lights, which can be many colors. The race track tower has such diffrerent colors of lights.  As would a traffic light.  I read the verse to mean that the tower itself is green.  The lights can be green, white, red, blue and so on.  Just like a christmas tree.  But I doubt BP would have a clue that only shows itself in December.

there are also "Conning Towers" on battleships, not sure if there is one on the cassin young at the Boston Navy Yard. here is the USS Yorktownone from Charlestowne, SC hxxp://flickr.com/photos/photorolandi/1448812344/ what are you all leaning more toward about our oval in the image, a porthole or an observatory? just for laughs, every time i google earth boston, i see "The Secret is in the Sauce" over by little Italy, lol

shecrab wrote:: Interestingly enough, Logan Airport does not have the usual type of Control Tower--it has an H-shaped structure that is not very tower-like, and not green. I had not thought about Logan not having a "traditional" tower.  I drive past the Albany airport everyday on my route to work and yesterday the control tower looked so soiltary and "tower like" against the cloudless sky that it just SCREAMED of "tower."  [by the way the top of it happens to be green...  but it is also over 100 miles away from where we are looking.]  Like I said in my previous post though I'm trying to throw out images of "type" rather than fitting the full definition, then we can rule out the definite nos and try to fit the possibilities into a narrower search. I can't believe that I left an "obvious" tower off the list which is lighthouse.  I grew up in a fishing town and so loved the lighthouses.  Boston has only one that I am aware of and it is white. Also, although I wrote "control tower" on my list I don't think the casque is near Logan [although hangers come to mind as "metal walls"] as I doubt there is a convenient enough area BP could have gone to bury one near Logan [Look at Google Earth you'll see what I mean]. As Boogie pointed out "it first has to be green."  True enough.  However my line of thought is "there's more things that are green than things that are towers so let's find towers and knock off the list all of them that aren't green."  ALSO: What if the tower in question is something that was green in 1981 and isn't now? I keep thinking green MAY be "ivy or moss covered."  Does anyone know anything about removing ivy from a building?  I DO know that ivy is supposed to be bad for buildings, but I also THINK that removing ivy can cause worse problems once it's already grown there.  As I'm anything but an expert in this area I pose the question for someone who may know better:  Is ivy ever removed from old buildings such as the historic buildings of Boston in renovation or restoration efforts?  I'm asking more if it's done in general than "has it been done in Boston"  However that second question pertaining to Boston in particular is probably more helpful. Also: If something was painted green it could be painted a different color now. I seem to think this next one has been stated before but lightS is plural.  I posted a link to a flickr photo the other day of a church steeple, which shows light coming out of it but the image showed "light" not "lightS."  The plural keeps bringing "one if by land, two if by see" to mind.  In keeping with my above question:  Does the Old North Church or did it ever have ivy?  Could it in any way be considered "green?"  I think not, but as that is where two lightS were placed as the signal to Revere and he keeps being brought up I have to ask even though I think the answer is no.

Also keep in mind that this is a riddle, and BP has been mischievous before (pass the compass, cast in copper, etc.). Perhaps it is a play on words. Maybe a building whose name has something to do with "light" or "green" if you think outside the box, the same way North Point Lighthouse had something to do with compasses (which "point north").

That's why I suggested something NAMED "tower" that isn't a tower.  And as Shecrab already stated there is a tower called "the green building" at MIT. Perhaps lights are pointed AT the "tower" not coming from the tower?? BP certainly had some fun here.

What if "Green" or "Greene" was the name of the architect or famous company that was in it at the time? Or if perhaps "Tower" is the name, and we are to look for "green" as in a park or common area?

Any towers in Beacon Hill?

Unknown: "the green building" at MIT. Actually, it's called Green Tower. As for architects or other personnel involved with a building of any kind, I've done quite a lot of searching and came up empty on that account.  MIT's Green Tower is the closest you'll get there, I'm afraid. I've looked in the past, and in the LONG past as well. Nothin'. It's been said before, but Beacon could mean tower, and Hill could mean the "green." Beacon Hill-Green Tower. Or "green" could mean the park area (flat) that contains a tower--such as in village green. So a "green" tower could mean a tower on the green. The Bunker Hill monument would qualify there--certainly on a green and certainly a tower.

check out this photo of MIT at night. hxxp://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/sox-1026.html [notice in the photo just how close to the river it is.  makes the lines "Face the water, Your back to the stairs" fitting?] Shecrab: Do you know if the Bunker Hill Monument is lit at night?  I can't find any nighttime photos of it.  If it IS lit, kind of like the Washinton Monument then perhaps the following line "in the middle section" would become more clear.  The tower being lit is what's sitting "in the middle" of the lights?  I can't find any photos of Bunker hill at night though to prove or disprove this idea. I'm going to repeat myself.... BP must have had a LOT of fun with this.

bigmattyh i had the same idea you had except i figured "HILL" is the "TOWER" and "BEACON" is for "LIGHTS" and "GREEN" could just mean "HILL" also BEACON HILL also a Mr. Greene owned Cotton HIll which is now Pemberton Square I think i'm still thinking boston common and maybe the shaw monumentl because their weapons look like her hair and the angel could be our fairy and it has the big round ball thingies and the eagle. i think shecrab mentioned somewhere that the "verses" are jumbled from going straight to the casques. here's a picture of the shaw monument, and it is right across from the state house on beacon street: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/historyofboston/2078347751/ and the backside looks like this: which could match the bottom of the picture: hxxp://flickr.com/photos/historyofboston/151439740/ and also the liberty mall steps and guild steps are over there on that side of the commons.

[quote author=Ringo Shecrab: Do you know if the Bunker Hill Monument is lit at night?  I can't find any nighttime photos of it.  If it IS lit, kind of like the Washinton Monument then perhaps the following line "in the middle section" would become more clear.  The tower being lit is what's sitting "in the middle" of the lights?  I can't find any photos of Bunker hill at night though to prove or disprove this idea. I'm going to repeat myself.... BP must have had a LOT of fun with this. [/quote] Yep...Here's one photo of it at night. It is lit up, with white light:

ya'll are gonna kill me i know, but i was looking closely at the george robert white memorial and the cornucopia (spl?) reminded me of image 6, and i had been drawn to that picture of the mounted guy before when i saw the george washington statue in the public garden because of his hat: check these out: hxxp://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_fre ... _pg_08.jpg hxxp://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_fre ... te_pg.html george washington's hat: hxxp://gonewengland.about.com/cs/boston ... hoto10.htm hxxp://www.boston-cruises.com/boston-cruises-4.jpg please ringo if you go to boston, check these guys at the public garden, they're both at the arlington street side.

This is a great angle the Montreal solve. If Thucydides is                            Greek from Olympiad time North of Xenophon                      North side(dig spot). Greek from Olympiad time Take five steps                            Five Olympic Rings In the area of his direction Ground area and Greeks Olympic in time A green tower of lights Green stadium top In the middle section                 Is in middle Near those                                 Subway station entrance Who pass the coliseum                 Subway route by stadium With metal walls                 Subway car Face the water                 Face the Olympic pool venue Your back to the stairs                 Olympic podium Feel at home                 Gold medal position All the letters                 Flags of nations ("Letter of the country") Are here to see                 Displayed nearby Eighteenth day                 July 18, 1976 The Olympic sport competitions begin Twelfth hour                 Final hour Lit by lamplight                 Olympic torch In truth, be free.                 Recover casque

Here is good areal view the area.

Unknown: But there were parts of the verse that never got explained: couplet was one. I don't believe they ever found out what that referred to. Why are the words those who pass in the verse? Why was it not sufficient to instead write Near the coliseum with metal walls ? What is special about those who pass ? I have difficulty with the idea that metal walls is a reference to Old Ironsides. In no way could Ironsides be referred to as a "coliseum" - it's a ship, not a building. So coliseum with metal walls does not make sense to me as Old Ironsides. On another thread, shecrab noted: I think it has been mentioned that Free speech, couplet, birch parallel the names Socrates, Pindar, Apelles on the previous line. Socrates was associated with free speech, Pindar was a poet (hence couplet), and birch was a reference to ancient paintbrushes.

Unknown: I have difficulty with the idea that metal walls is a reference to Old Ironsides. In no way could Ironsides be referred to as a "coliseum" - it's a ship, not a building. So coliseum with metal walls does not make sense to me as Old Ironsides. Unknown: I think it has been mentioned that Free speech, couplet, birch parallel the names Socrates, Pindar, Apelles on the previous line. Socrates was associated with free speech, Pindar was a poet (hence couplet), and birch was a reference to ancient paintbrushes Punctuated that way, it wouldnt' make sense. Punctuated another way it makes just as much sense as any other solution. Those who pass the coliseum could refer to streets. The streets are "those." With metal walls can refer to something else entirely, not related to the line above. What the post by Egbert said was that they did not find a poem nearby. There are a couple of references to couplets in the Cleveland Cultural Gardens, esp. in the Greek garden--there was a tribute to Byron there.  Also, he said birch referred to a tree, not a paintbrush.

Somehow or other, I keep finding myself in potential "casque cities." I will be in Boston in less than two weeks for a conference, and there is a teeny weeny chance (2%) I will have an opportunity to do a little snooping around. If I do, I'll report back, hopefully with photos.

what are your ideas for boston,  forest? i'm still hooked on the boston common and public gardens............especially the hancock monument and flagstaff hill soldier's and sailor's monument, or that monument across from city hall.

Oh, I dunno. I'd like to just be a tourist and visit the BPL and Copley Square. Maybe see some Revolutionary War stuff and the Boston Common / Public Garden area. Maybe something will hit me.

FB, try to get a pic showing a close up of the copley fountain (looking for the scar and dot)... Look at: hxxp://virb.com/teevio/photos/2177 and compare with the uper right shape of the image 11...

That fountain is already near the top of my list, eljayo. I can't remember, but didn't someone say the fountain was installed after The Secret was written?

Here is a nice link to some "virtual tours" of the Copley Square/Boston area. No close-up of the fountain, though. hxxp://www.panoramamagazine.com/virtual%20tours/ AP

That fountain was installed in the 1990's. Prior to that, the fountain in the middle of Copley was a round one with a single jet in the middle. There is a pic on here of it, I believe.

Ech, that's right. Darn. "A beautiful hypothesis slain by an ugly fact." --Thomas Huxley

I am going to have to break ranks with all of you and say that this verse and image 11 go to Ottawa. All of you can keep looking in Boston if you want but it looks to me like the casque is in the canal area of Ottawa. Under any condition I have some aquaintances in Toronto I cxan get to do some digging if I come up with something concrete.

I live not too far from Ottawa if you come up with convincing evidence...

"Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free." (OR) ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

forest_blight wrote:: That fountain is already near the top of my list, eljayo. I can't remember, but didn't someone say the fountain was installed after The Secret was written? I think I posted this before, forest. This is a pic after the renovation though I was freaking out when I first seen it until I found out.

Yeah, I know (*sigh*). But I felt pretty good about that one when I first saw that photo, and nothing you say to me can take that away, party-pooper! So I was in downtown Boston today. I traipsed all over Boston Commons and the Public Garden, then down to Copley Square and the BPL. Took a few pictures, but nothing you guys haven't already seen. I soaked up every statue, plaque, ornament, and architectural detail along the way, too, but nothing grabbed me. Great town, but so disappointed. I need more time here. The interior of the BPL is magnificent. Definitely see it if you visit Boston.

My trip to Boston last week did not result in any revelations, but I did get to see plenty of things in person that I had been wanting to, including the Italian North End (with Paul Revere's house, the Old North Church, etc.), the BPL (beautiful!), the Park Plaza Castle, Boston Commons and Boston Public Garden, and the Hatch Band Shell. I did not get to visit Harvard, Bunker Hill, MIT, or Old Ironsides. Nor did I get to travel the Freedom Trail or do any of a dozen other things I wanted to do. D!*#& conference... My photos are posted here: hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/quantpsy Earlier there was some doubt about whether V3 really contained references to Boston. Remember that the connection was made because of some possible references to the familiar poem "Paul Revere's Ride" by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. This poem contains references to midnight, lamplight, freedom, etc., hence the theory. But why " twelfth hour " if it was midnight rather than noon? And why Italy? Further down in the poem we see... It was twelve by the village clock When he crossed the bridge into Medford town. ... It was one by the village clock, When he galloped into Lexington. ... It was two by the village clock, When he came to the bridge in Concord town. So "twelve" actually does appear in the poem, and V3 could be read to refer to a specific place: Medford, which is where Paul Revere found himself at at the twelfth hour, according to Longfellow. Medford, incidentally, is in Middlesex County (the Middle section ?). What about a P for this V? Many favor P11, which is evidently the Italian P, despite our girl's Celtic look. The majority of Medford's population consists of Italian-American families, and every other building in the North End of Boston is now an Italian restaurant, despite the area's very British history. I have no problem linking Italy with this area.

Forest, Thanks for the "legeater" photo in BPL. That was quite a photo tour of Boston...so many statues...so little time... I was sure that you would have had a "Eureka" moment as you stood between the BPL and Copley Square... AP

FB, you lucky devil you.  It seems that you have visited almost every city where there is "most likely" a casque hidden.  You really need to start skipping these droll conferences and pack the shovel Medford huh?  Interesting tie ins.  Did you happen to notice the name of the very large park just above Medford in Middlesex County.  Doesnt that bring you right back to our little conversation over lunch so long ago?

fox wrote:: FB, you lucky devil you.  It seems that you have visited almost every city where there is "most likely" a casque hidden.  You really need to start skipping these droll conferences and pack the shovel fox wrote:: Medford huh?  Interesting tie ins.  Did you happen to notice the name of the very large park just above Medford in Middlesex County.  Doesnt that bring you right back to our little conversation over lunch so long ago? Ha! Been there, done that, and it didn't pan out. I've reverted to armchair hunting As for conferences, the next two I'm attending will take me to Montreal (!) and San Francisco (! !). Middlesex Fells Reservation? Not sure I read you, unless you're referring to the little corner of it known as "Wrights Park," which opens up a whole 'nother can of worms!

Forest - be sure to post when you will be in SF I will come down and we can do lunch MaltedFalcon

You bet, Malt - it will be in late May.

wrights park is what i was referring to. they all just might be connected after all.

Or they may not be. Friendly contrarian who thinks this is Canada here. I know alot of you think the last few lines talk about the midnight ride. I however think they talk about the 1982 Canadian Constitution. I know the constitution was signed on the 17th but I am somewhat in agreement with thoes that think this is saying midnight on the 18th. Anyway the significance of the '82 Constitution was it for all practical matters it severed all ties with the United Kingdom. Hence what in Truth Be Free means. Alsol as I look at the canal area of Ottawa it sure looks like it matches the verse. I think Ottawa is the city because if this therory is correct because that was the location of the signing of the constitution. Soon I hope to scan the image and isolate what is I think is the Canadian Maple Leaf in the image. When I do get this done I will E-mail it to Fox to put up.

if you are looking for a side by side comparison of anything, I would email it to FB... he seems a little more computer literate when it comes to things like that.

Here is a new thought... If you are standing in front of the Boston Public Library looking at the frieze with the names of Thucydides and Xenophon, if you "take 5 steps" North (5 streets)...heading up Dartmouth St., you will pass the "dome" and stop at the center of Commonwealth Ave. ("near those who pass the coliseum"..(two sides of Commonwealth Ave. pass near both Fenway and the Alumni Stadium). There is a statue of a man named William Lloyd Garrison. He was a radical abolitionist...who fought for the end of slavery and for women's rights. ("in truth be free"..was part of the lyrics to an ode to Washington's birthday, written about slavery.) According to a description of the statue: The stern abolitionist is seated, ("feel at home") manuscripts in hand and scattered beneath his chair, ("all the letters are here to see") If you "stand facing the water" (St. Charles River), "with your back to the stairs" (steps surrounding the statue)... maybe you will be in the right place to look for the casque. Just trying an entirely new direction... Is there anyone in the Boston area who can look around in this vicinity?...Just see what is there.... AP Here is the link to the PDF of the brochure about the area. hxxp://www.walkboston.org/resources/ima ... aveMap.pdf (description of the statue:) 9. William Lloyd Garrison was sculpted in 1886 by Olin Levi Warner. The stern abolitionist is seated, manuscripts in hand and scattered beneath his chair, staring contemplatively, perhaps envisioning a future in which man no longer enslaves his fellow man. Be sure to read the inscription of Garrison’s statements from his publication, The Liberator. The green oxidized copper surface of the statue is unique along the Mall. Garrison’s presence here is unquestionably fitting, as he was largely based in Boston.

My idea is only a "what if"...to get us looking at possible directions other than in Copley Square "proper".... AP

below is a line from #3 point of interest in the link ap posted hxxp://www.walkboston.org/resources/ima ... aveMap.pdf commonwealth follows a straight line [unusual for Boston] which takes us back to the straight line idea, if this is at the  other end of commonwealth.......... near both Fenway and the Alumni Stadium). i have not looked at map to see if the stadiums are there ap i like the letter idea works well with the path you followed ....... Lit by lamplight is this just a line, or maybe the spot where its buried, is lit by lamp light Starting at Arlington Street, Commonwealth Avenue follows a straight line [unusual for Boston] through the Back Bay. Note that the cross-streets are in alphabetical order: Arlington, Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Gloucester, Hereford. They alternate as one-way streets; careful as you cross!

Unknown: Note that the cross-streets are in alphabetical order: Arlington, Berkeley, Clarendon, Dartmouth, Exeter, Fairfield, Gloucester, Hereford. They alternate as one-way streets; careful as you cross! Also note that the ALPHABET has ALL THE LETTERS. (for you to see.)

shecrab, good point i had forgotten the abc idea with the LETTERS so now where to dig is the Q

One more idea... If "Take 5 steps" meant pass 5 "named "streets (There are a 4 public alleyways along Dartmouth and 5 "named" streets) you would end up at the Storrow Memorial Drive along St. Charles River. There is a park and an enclosed type of waterway...with a wide staircase leading right down to the water.  If your back were to the stairs, and you were "facing the water" you would be standing on the opposite side of the enclosed waterway.  There are some very nice trees and land there . Can't tell on Google if there are any other nearby "confirmers" in the park.

I found that this area is called "The St. Charles Esplanade" The stairway leading into the water is the "Dartmouth St. Landing", one of three granite landings. I have not yet searched for photos of the area that may give us a reason to  "Feel at home"...as verse 3 says... What makes you "feel at home"?...sitting on a bench? There is a hotel whose tag line is "Feel At Home", Marriott Residence Inn, across the St. Charles River...6 Cambridge Center; Cambridge, Whether that was their ad slogan in 1981-82...or if they even existed then...I don't know. But there may have been some sort of sign in the area that BP saw and quoted. (a home realty sign, a nursing home sign, a hotel sign...a restaurant sign)... I doubt that any advertising sign would be up for over 26 years... AP

Does anyone know if there was a fountain in Copley Sq. before the last renovation?...any photos of pre-construction? AP (No matter how I try to "get away" from Copley Sq., it keeps drawing me back...)

animal painter wrote:: Does anyone know if there was a fountain in Copley Sq. before the last renovation?...any photos of pre-construction? AP (No matter how I try to "get away" from Copley Sq., it keeps drawing me back...) Keep in mind, that in #1 from your map (staring at the frieze) taking five steps brings you into the Library.

animal painter wrote:: Does anyone know if there was a fountain in Copley Sq. before the last renovation?...any photos of pre-construction? AP (No matter how I try to "get away" from Copley Sq., it keeps drawing me back...) Yes, there was....it was smaller,and round. There is a picture on the Image 11 thread.

"Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls" It would be helpful to have city street maps of Boston from 1980. Apparently, the Mass. Turnpike was put underground after 1982...And the elevated railway, which was still in operation, was removed in the 1980's. Both of these modes of transportation could  possibly be the reference from verse 3 above...Or any streets that used to pass Fenway and the Copley Sq. vicinity. Fenway Park is famous for its "Green Monster", which is a 37 foot sheet metal wall...(which was later covered in green plastic.) More searching... AP

Once again, (all this REhashing!!): "Those" who pass the coliseum with metal walls does not have to mean "people". "Those" can mean anything---streets (near the streets that go past Fenway or any other coliseum) or BUSES--near the BUS shelter that has a bus that goes past this coliseum--or taxis--near a taxi stand, or SUBWAY stop (The T--see the perch the bird is on!) that goes past the coliseum. NEAR THOSE --can mean near anything that passes some coliseum--like the Harvard coliseum--their athletic field has a perfect replica of the Roman Coliseum. Or it could mean Boston Gardens. Near a bus stop that takes you to Boston Gardens arena.  Or even near a bus that takes you to the wharf where Old Ironsides is docked. Or maybe a special shuttle that takes you to any of these places or others.

But Shecrab... I just love "Hash"... Thanks for your constant re-supply... AP

LOL.....I like hash too...but sometimes I just wanna steak!

I like the elevated trains.  They could be the those with metal walls that pass the coliseum .  I don't like twisting the lines in the verse but maybe BP did.

shecrab wrote:: Or maybe a special shuttle that takes you to any of these places or others. I think this special shuttle may take us a little too far away from our casque site unless one was buried at Mare Tranquillitatis.

Hey....I see the word "Harvard" on that wing....

Verse 3 says: "a green tower of lights Did you know that there is an evergreen called the "green tower"? hxxp://www.nurgapuukool.ee/enindex.php? ... =2&sid=951 There is a tradition of a towering evergreen lit up every Christmas in the Boston Commons. Also a traditional tall evergreen lit at Faneuil Hall.

That is an interesting little find AP since I am really beginning to like the Commons.  Here is a little more info on the Pinus Nigra 'Green Tower' or Austrian Pine: hxxp://hcs.osu.edu/plantlist/description/pi_nigra.html Unfortunately, but it may not really matter, the tree used in the Commons every Christmas does not seem to be a Pinus Nigra. hxxp://boston.about.com/od/historylandm ... astree.htm It is quite interesting that the tree comes from Canada though...

Here is a little exerpt describing the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in the Common. "The platform is thirty-eight feet square, and rests on a mass of subterranean masonry sixteen feet deep. Four projecting pedestals sustain four bronze statues [presumably stolen], each eight feet high, representing Peace, a female figure bearing an olive-branch and looking to the South; the Sailor, a picturesque mariner carrying a drawn cutlass, and looking seaward ; History, a graceful female figure, in Greek costume, holding a tablet and stylus, and looking upward; and the Soldier, perhaps the best statue on the monument, representing a Federal infantryman standing at ease, and bearing the face of a citizen-soldier rather than that of a professional warrior." Face the water?

I wonder if the Greek statue is North of the Sailor....? Did you say presumably stolen ? You mean they aren't there now?

I did not say presumably stolen , the article did.  From what I gather by looking at the pics, no, the statues are not there.  I wonder how long ago they went missing.  Even if they are gone, I think we could figure out which went where.  We know Peace is facing South.  It does say that History {in greek costume} is looking upward.  Upward on a map is north but I doubt that counts.  Now, if History was on the opposite side of the column, then yes...history is facing north.

If History is facing north, hmm... Thucydides and Xenophon were historians, were they not? I wonder what was written on that tablet of hers. The web page to which fox refers also notes: "Note: After vandalism in 2004, one of the statues was damaged. As far as I remember (my last visit was 28 February), all the statues were missing. They may have returned by now - I'm not sure." The article about the vandalism can be read here: hxxp://pittsburghpost-gazette.com/pg/04132/314421.stm More recent photographs (August, 2008) of the monument can be found at my webshots site: hxxp://good-times.webshots.com/album/565535535bSKUow See images 1978 and 1979. The statues are still missing. My guess is that after one statue was damaged, all 4 were removed for safe-keeping. So, Peace faced south, Sailor faced "seaward" (east), and Soldier faced west , so History must have been on the north (actually northeast)? pedestal.

forest_blight wrote:: See images 1978 and 1979. The statues are still missing. If they were gone in '78 & '79, would BP have known about them?

Here is how they looked loooong ago.

Flickr has others taken in both 2003 & 2008 that show the statues.  Big question is, were they there around BP's burial trips... Wait...the tag on this pic said taken in 2008 but that obviously isnt the case. A more recent photo can be seen here: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/radunzel/2801919252/

Unknown: If they were gone in '78 & '79, would BP have known about them? Just numbers, fox, not dates!

DOH

forest_blight wrote:: If History is facing north, hmm... Thucydides and Xenophon were historians, were they not? The web Hmmmm, yes and no.  To be more exact, Xenophon was a soldier!  So now we have a greek historian {Thucydides} and a soldier {Xenophon} on this monument. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon

Famous quote by Xenophon: “The sea! The sea! (Anabasis)” egad, now the sailor too?

what i liked about the soldiers and sailors monument (last year, during my boston obsession, image 11, p. 40) was that Longfellow is pictured on one of the reliefs: "Between these pedestals are four large bronze reliefs. In the front is "The Departure for the War," with a regiment marching by the State House steps, the mounted officers, from left to right, being Colonels Lowell and  Shaw, both of whom were killed, Colonel Cass, General Benjamin F. Butler, and Quartermaster General Reed. On the steps are the Revs. Turner Sargent, A. H. Vinton, Phillips Brooks, and Archbishop Williams; Governor Andrew, shorter than the others; Wendell Phillips, Mr. Whitmore, the poet Longfellow, and others."

Looking at verse 3, Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Moving past Quincy Market (where there are the glass globes and a dome)...following the Freedom Trail....starting at the intersection of Hanover St. and Cross St.... At 211 Hanover St. is a restaurant named "Mother Anna's" (what better place to "feel at home" than at "mother's"?) It has been there for over 60 years...famous enough for President Kennedy to stop and eat there... Next door to it there are about 4 mailboxes on the sidewalk in front of a Post Office sign...(all the letters there to see) Hanover St. leads to St. Leonard's Church (with the checkered arches, and the statue of the girl that looks like the fairy...in the Peace Garden). It is at the intersection of Hanover and Prince St. Prince Street forms one of the sides of "North Square" (intersecting Moon St....as the "moon" in  image 11) where Paul Revere's historic house is located. There is also another famous restaurant in North Square named Mamma Maria's. (another "mother" to feel at home...) It has been there long before 1982...(I have written to the owner.) There are 5 steps in front of the restaurant. Hanover St. goes past Paul Revere Mall/The Prado, with a round stone fountain and park setting. ..You see the Old North Church though the Mall...on Salem St. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight That is as far as I have gone...so far... Now trying to find the reference to In truth be free. written on something. AP

Nice tie ins AP.  One question for you though...is there a nice park nearby where the casque could be buried?  I am not too familiar with the area you are describing.  Is it toooo far from the Common for that to still work?

Fox, The Prado is a park...BP may have gotten away with digging shallowly in the shadows at night. If The trail leads still closer to the Bay (water) , The North End Playground may be a good place to search. (It has been there for a VERY long time.) I was thinking that the line "in truth be free" might be a good line to put on a headstone in the Copp's Hill burying ground..leading toward the Bay.  it would take a person on foot to find a clue like that. AP

Not a man at Copps', but a woman...Mary Dyer. Hanged on Boston Common for heresy. hxxp://www.projo.com/specials/women/94root2.htm or here: Burst the fetters of oppression, Let our land in truth be free, And no longer Slavery's curse Blast the land of Liberty. On to victory! brothers, on! Shout the name of Washington. From "Ode on Washington's Birthday (1864). Or my favorite: hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=jEYyYiEqC9IC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=%22in+truth+be+free%22&source=web&ots=t-QT0dCNB2&sig=FFevbFqRU20_qzpzQiaWiBbtEAE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result The man who said this phrase, Thomas Hobbes, is famous for----translating Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian Wars in 1628. In fact, he was the first to translate the book from the original Greek.

Shecrab, It is also a line from a famous African American poet, Charles Reason in his verse, "The Spirit Voice"... hxxp://tinyurl.com/668mw3 (but I cannot connect him to Boston) AP

I am beginning to wonder again if we are interpreting this V wrong. I still believe that: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon and Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. simply get us to Boston. I think that: Face the water Your back to the stairs is the specific area of our casque...and possibly including Feel at home All the letters Are here to see These seem to be very area specific to me. Now it gets a little fuzzy. A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls I think that these may be describing things seen along the route or nearby the area but not as area specific. Now, the big problem with our area is that once we are there facing the water with our back to the stairs, we are basically left with no other instructions or directions to go.  Do we just dig there with our back to the stairs?  This is where I think the final 2 lines of the V which I have left out come into play.  I think a different read of these lines will help narrow down our area once we are there. Take five steps In the area of his direction This always sounded a little odd to me until now.  I think this may be another instance where we are emphasizing these lines wrong.  I hope I can explain this without confusing you guys too badly.  Let's break it down like this: Take five steps In the area & of his direction .  Now it would read more like this: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon {we know this to be true since Boston is North of New York} Take five steps In the area {we know our area and now have more directions to follow once there} of his direction {North}. So, once we find our starting place in our general area {more then likely with our back to the stairs} we take 5 steps North.

I believe I have a possible dig-location for someone to check out. Here is a small park by Copp's Hill Cemetery.  It may be considered an extension of the North End Playground on the other side of Commercial Street. If you are walking down Charter Street, you see a stairway leading down to the park on the Commercial Street level. When you reach the bottom of the stairs, you face North looking out at the harbor. With your back to the stairs, you have a nice tree in front of you...about 5 steps away. Here you see the stairway from Commercial St....The stairs at the far left are the ones you just came down...See the tree with the "X"?  If you use the stairs at the right, you will have to cross Commercial St. to get to North End Playground...Which may be an alternative dig-area. Here is a very simplified route through "The Area of Thucydides' Direction"...or the Area of the North End. The green line is one route, and the pink line is a more direct alternative.  Of course, BP could also have gone down Prince Street and meandered his way to the park. This looks like a place to at least probe around with a metal rod. AP

Just sharing the Hanover St. image of Mother Anna's Restaurant (on the right) with the mailboxes next door... "Feel at home" "All the letters here to see" AP

Just a few more ideas for the Boston casque. The final lines of verse 3 say: Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. Definite reference to Paul Revere, and a neighborhood where there is still "lamplight".  In the North End area, there are still gas lights that burn all day long.  There are old street "lamplights" in North Square, where you can see Paul Revere's House. I was looking at the ground there, which is now covered in bricks. According to the owner of "Mamma Maria's Restaurant", "prior to the bicentennial in 1976, it was just an open square with cars parked all over." So the trees and grassy area were created only a few years before BP came to bury his box. Here you can see the front 5 steps of Mamma Maria's. They face out North toward the "square" where there is an old fashioned "lamplight" and a manhole cover. There are a couple of trees planted nearby.  Apparently two of them died, leaving two bare dirt squares...Hmmmm...could there have been room to bury a small box? I cannot make out what is written on the manhole cover. It very well may say "water"...If so, we can "face the water". (If you Google on "manhole covers, Boston" you will see it could be our "water" reference. This is a manhole cover in Harvard Square.) Here is the planted area at the "pointed end" of the square.  There is a metal box there which is yet, unidentified...an old "letterbox"?  This area could qualify for a digging site, since it is not a "flower bed". Here is a link to the Freedom Trail PDF on which you can get a closer look to see where the trail leads. ( In truth be FREE ) hxxp://www.thefreedomtrail.org/maps/pdf ... ps-map.pdf Since BP referred in verse 3 to "the area of Thucydides' direction", which is North , which may be the North End , I do not think he would have taken us across the bridge to Charlestown.  (I have not found any visual clues there yet.) North Square may not be secluded, and may not have been easy to dig unobserved, but I offer this as a possibility. AP

Unknown: There are a couple of trees planted nearby.  Apparently two of them died, leaving two bare dirt squares...Hmmmm...could there have been room to bury a small box? I only have one thing to say about this theory:  ROOTS.

go fast then becuase a either they will be paved over or new trees planted and if that is the case the casques will probably be destroyed by the diggers. Actuallly in this area the frost cycle has probably already crushed it. so it would just be pieces (ala clevland) a tree planter might not even recognize it as anything besides trash

Malted, Personally, I am more attracted to the other area, by the strange metal "letterbox'.  There is more digging space in that area. This is another view of that "letterbox area" AP

Is that a small statue in the right portion of the picture?  What is it a statue of?  Personally, I think this area to be way too small for BP to bury a casque.  The 2 found casques, as well as very probable locations we have located, are all large parks.

And with that small of an area, the only thing you will discover if you try to dig is.... ....wait for it.... ROOTS.

fox wrote:: Is that a small statue in the right portion of the picture?  What is it a statue of? It may be St. Leonard...His church namesake is nearby. AP

Just an update on the search of the North Square... In May 2006, there was a mailbox on the sidewalk by "Mamma Maria". I found a photo that shows the manhole cover more clearly. In May 2006, the cover on the left,did not say "water". If you look at verse 3, North Square has the following clues (in bold) I f Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. I am going to let this place "rest" now. No more searching here. AP

a freinds kid that is 9, gave me an idea for face the water, maybe a play on the word as in water,lake, atlantic, pacific ect. for. a street name or building name ect. havent read all posts to the areas that have been looked at, are any of these names in those areas

Pretty smart 9-year-old! Any chance s/he would join the forum??

forest_blight wrote:: Pretty smart 9-year-old! Any chance s/he would join the forum?? fb not sure if your  serious,dont know her parents would let her i was working on p-11 v-3 at time, she also noticed the lines, see image,....sorry cant see image... because fourm says a 9.60kb jpeg is to big anyway she thought they may be a map of sorts,she was moved up to 6th grade, because of her reading Comprehension, she also has that common sense factor going on i dont think i could describe  the lines  she is talking about, well enough for the fourm to follow sorry

Anyone who visited Boston in the 1980's would have been overwhelmed by the the Elevated Central Artery....the "other Green Monster" of Boston. This is a night shot of the Elevated Central Artery. "A green tower of lights...in the middle section"...Near those...who pass the coliseum...with metal walls" Here is an early photo of the Central Artery passing by the Boston Garden Arena (the coliseum) and Mother Anna's Restaurant...(where you "feel at home") which is on Hanover St...leading down the Freedom Trail . Here are two close-ups  of the Central Artery as it passes the "Coliseum"...Fleet Center... (which was another name for the remodeled Boston Garden Arena)...See the "metal walls". The Zakim Bridge in the background was built after 2000, but the Elevated Central Artery was not torn down until after 2004. If BP was wanting us to be "Near those that pass the coliseum with metal walls", it would be near the Elevated Central Artery...near the Boston Garden Arena. The Central Artery is so tall...that it could conceivably be referred to as a "green tower"...where the multi-levels had to be lit up at night. AP

I'm not too sure about an elevated highway being referred to as a "tower".  Roadways are known to go horizontally and not vertically like a tower would.  In my opinion, both the Hancock Tower or the Prudential Tower are better matches...I even like the Christmas tree idea since it is much more towerlike than an elevated roadway.  And if some of you don't buy into a Christmas tree being towerlike...remember, we found Pinus nigra.

But this isn't pinpointing anything, either. Especially since other things in the verse already got us to Boston.

Fox, You are probably right...But as for "those that pass the coliseum with metal walls", I am convinced that it is referring to the Elevated Central Artery.  According to the maps, it does not go near Copley Square. I am still interested in the Copp's Hill Terrace, (the park with the multi-level stairs, located across the road from Copp's Hill Burial Ground.  The park was designed by none other than our "friend" Olmstead...who seems to be ubiquitous... popping up in every casque-location city....even Montreal (Mt. Royal). AP

fox wrote:: I even like the Christmas tree idea since it is much more towerlike than an elevated roadway.  And if some of you don't buy into a Christmas tree being towerlike...remember, we found Pinus nigra. Fox, As much as I like the Pinus Nigra , too, unless the tree were growing in the ground, BP would probably not use it as an all-year-round clue. In Milwaukee, BP seemed to be very "step-by-step" in verse 8. Did he give clues in sequential order for the two found casques? Or did he "jump around" as far as his clue locations went? I'm trying to determine just what he was looking at, when he ended verse 3 with "In truth be free" ...Was that the location marker??? AP

in the cleveland verse, Beneath two countries    general park cultural gardens, As the road curves          describes the road beside the garden In a rectangular plot Beneath the tenth stone From right to left Beneath the ninth row from the top            Specific steps to casque Of the wall including small bricks Seven steps up you can hop From the bottom level Socrates, Pindar, Apelles Free speech, couplet, birch                things near the casque To find casque's destination Seek the columns For the search.                The the last 3 lines is where you start walking toward the casque after stopping on the curving road.....

Let's just say that BP outdid himself on creating covert references in verse 3. If we do not look at the obvious historical sites, we might want to look at more "covert" references: Longfellow Place (Midnight Ride of Paul Revere reference), Canal Street, (water) Washington St....(who always told the Truth.) Liberty Hotel, (Be Free) Just freely associating. AP

Unknown: To find casque's destination Seek the columns For the search.                The the last 3 lines is where you start walking toward the casque after stopping on the curving road..... Hmm. I kind of assumed this meant "look for the P containing columns to pair with this V." Maybe a double meaning.

animal painter wrote:: Fox, You are probably right...But as for "those that pass the coliseum with metal walls", I am convinced that it is referring to the Elevated Central Artery.  According to the maps, it does not go near Copley Square. but does it go by Boston Common?

Fox, I was under the impression that the Central Artery was the roadway that cut the North End off from the rest of Boston...On this map, it is in red. Here it is from an aerial view. AP

Boston Public Library...above the keystone of the central entrance, proclaims: "FREE TO ALL"

forest_blight wrote:: Hmm. I kind of assumed this meant "look for the P containing columns to pair with this V." Maybe a double meaning. Well so far I havent seen any other verse/p connections and Im pretty sure the columns in the picture are the ones on the wall and these columns are out by the street. the columns are at the entrance to the garden and would mark the spot you start looking (among all the other gardens along that street)

Unknown: Well so far I havent seen any other verse/p connections Unknown: and Im pretty sure the columns in the picture are the ones on the wall and these columns are out by the street. the columns are at the entrance to the garden and would mark the spot you start looking (among all the other gardens along that street) "...land near the window"? The columns are on the wall only in the P, not in real life, but I agree that at least your interpretation is correct -- perhaps both of our interpretations.

If verse 3 is merely pointing out "The Pru" as one of Boston's icons, (Prudential Building), not necessarily a dig-site location of the casque, it could be referred to as: a green tower of lights in the middle section Address....800 Boylston St.

Big building that can be seen from many different places

I have been doing a bit more research on verse 3 which says: All the letters Are here to see There is a business in Boston's North End on Prince St. that BP could have been referring to. On Prince Street, just off Hanover St., near North Square (close to.. Mamma Maria's Restaurant and Paul Revere's house) is a small newspaper printing shop, (which has been in business for 110 years) called "The Post Gazette"/ North End Press (printer) No doubt, there used to be a lot of letters here...Printer's type. AP

Verse 3 makes reference to: In truth, be free. (reference from an anti-slavery poem) In Copp's Hill Burying Ground, hundreds of African slaves and free men of color were buried. Here, Copp's Hill Burying Ground is near Copp's Hill Terrace, which has several (maybe 5) sets of steps, leading down to The North End Park (over 100 years old) Face the water Your back to the stairs If you stand with your back to the last set of stairs at Copp's Hill Terrace, and face the "water" of the bay, you will be facing North End Park... (It might be "5 steps/paces" from the stairs to cross the street)... you see a short stone wall...with a rather nicely secluded grassy area behind it.. Anyone in the Boston area have a soil probe?? AP

As I haven't found any postings about this verse and Montreal, has there been any real consideration/discussion about this? I've recently given thought to the idea that the "five steps" may be referencing the five leading up to the "middle section" of Mount Stephen Club's enterence, also being "lit by (legeater's) lamplight." Also, the keys seem to reside very close to the most exact representations in the image... the ones that are actually drawings of something recognizable in real life when at the correct location. Image 9's legeater, I believe, will remain the most exact representation in the picture (even if buidlings' sillouettes can/continue to be found). There also could be a emphasis/syllable pattern in key lines that connect with the pictures (not that other lines don't fit the same scheme)... seek the col lumns fence and fix ture lit by lamp light Could the "coliseum" be Windsor Station... marked by the Roman Numeral X (symbol for station)? It is modeled after Roman coliseum architecture. Merry Christmas all! And yes, I do realize that this verse is more easily connected to Boston/Image 11, just trying to keep thoughts flowing

If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Five steps somewhere in the north of Boston. A green tower of lights In the middle section "Tower of flights" -> Terminal building. Here's Terminal St in the north of Boston. There's also a more literal "green tower" here in the form of the Tobin Memorial Bridge , aka the "Mystic River Bridge". Near those Who pass the coliseum These have previously been identified as the marathon runners who pass in front of the coliseum-like Harvard Stadium. The bottom right of the above map shows Marathon Tours to the right of Barry Playground. With metal walls This is Old Ironsides Way, shown winding around to the left of Barry Playground. Face the water Your back to the stairs Haven't found these yet. I like the sound of a "little mystic access area". (Top left.) There are loads of tall lamps all around here. Wonder what this feature is at the top of Barry Playground. (Alternatively, I guess the next lines could be leading south towards USS Constitution and Revere Park.)

This is the "mystic access area"... View from the marked spot... Down the other end of 13th St from Marathon tours, there's a "circle garden" which has got numerous sets of five steps, turrets, lamps, homes, and you're facing the water. (It's at Pier 8...Peridot...8th month.) I like the Eaton's-style check pattern. Looks quite new, and it would be fairly conspicuous digging it up... I like this though...

animal painter wrote:: I found that this area is called "The St. Charles Esplanade" The stairway leading into the water is the "Dartmouth St. Landing", one of three granite landings. I have not yet searched for photos of the area that may give us a reason to  "Feel at home"...as verse 3 says Only just caught onto this area, via a statue of Tobin on the esplanade. Right by Revere St., and Longfellow Bridge ("Paul Revere's Ride") not far away. hxxp://esplanadeassociation.org/park/documents/CLR.pdf I reckon the green tower of lights near those who pass the coliseum with metal walls is a plausible reference to Tobin Bridge, as explained above. (It's green, and adjacent to Old Ironsides Way / Marathon Tours.) Could this be a pointer for the Tobin statue here on the St Charles Esplanade? I was wondering about the "feel a tome" theory for that thing under his arm. All the letters are here to see...In truth, be free. IN truth = T be = B free = 0 hxxp://www.boston-discovery-guide.com/b ... anade.html Earlier I was thinking: "What's the significance of that bird that looks like it's about to burst a bubble...?" At the south end of the esplanade....The Hatch Shell... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Memorial_Shell hxxp://www.hatchshell.com/history.php Be free! So here's the Hatch Shell.There are steps in front, though it's tricky to get a clear view of them. With its list of names, it's a bit BPL-esque. ("All the letters"...?) (You can see the edge of it in the bottom-left of the above map.) This is a very image-11-friendly location. I think Tobin might be right next to it as he appears in this list of Hatch Shell photos , but I can't figure out where he is. (On second thoughts, forget the lower arrow - that's from the BPL statue. The hair's not bad though...) As a V3 bonus, it seems they play Tchaikovsky's 1812 every 4th July since 1973.

animal painter wrote:: What is your thinking about the top of the stone circle which looks like a purple heart and a jagged crack? There you go then AP, that's my revised feather theory. Hatchling. ;)

Hey, remember this theory... If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Starting at Thucydides and taking five steps in the direction of Xenophon, you end up at Shaw The Hatch Shell was designed by Richard J Shaw . hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Memorial_Shell hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Shaw This is it. I'm shaw this is it.

That's not a bad idea...but, you have a much more famous Shaw around the Boston area. hxxp://www.nps.gov/boaf/historyculture/shaw.htm

This is true, although I think there are some interesting correspondences in the Hatch Shell area. I tracked down a photo of Tobin standing next to it... Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. It seems to me that you could stand facing the water, your back to the stairs of the Hatch Shell, and see Tobin. Regarding the last line, there are a couple of possible sources for “In truth, be free”, one being the “Ode on Washington’s Birthday”: hxxp://memory.loc.gov/rbc/amss/as1/as109860/001q.gif Birthday / hatching…? The inscription on the statue has the name of “Truman” / “true man”. I’ve previously wondered if this picture might be hinting at the idea of lifting a tile, or a slab. There seems to be a set of paving stones in front of Tobin. I guess it’s unlikely that Byron Preiss could have buried the box under one of these, but who knows. There's also stuff like this howitzer which is used for the 1812 concert: hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM8Z ... _Boston_MA I recently got in contact with someone who works on the Esplanade, and he's kindly agreed to take some photos... (He also pointed out that Image 11 reminded him of the Mapparium .)

citgo sign and triangle on sleeve, sign is 1 mile west of the hatch could be getting closer hxxp://www.citgo.com/AboutCITGO/BostonSign.jsp

Unknown: The original, wooden shell was built in 1928 as a temporary venue for the Pops with expectations of construction of a permanent structure in the near future. It was first used for a concert on July 4, 1929, with Arthur Fiedler conducting the Boston Pops Orchestra. A second, temporary shell, made of metal, was built in 1934 , but construction of a permanent Hatch Shell was delayed until 1939-1940. Today's permanent shell was designed by architect Richard J. Shaw, given by Maria Hatch in memory of her brother, and dedicated on July 2, 1940. Let's have another go at this. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Shaw -> Hatch Shell A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum "Those who pass the coliseum" are marathon runners. Assuming The Boston Marathon route hasn't changed from this , it goes down Beacon St alongside Boston Common - a green and a tower of lights. Or, the Hatch Shell could be the green and the tower of lights, near Beacon St. It's not ideal. Alternatively, Harvard Stadium was built on Soldiers Field, and Soldiers Field Road runs next to it. Saint Maurice is the patron saint of soldiers, so in that sense Maurice is "near those who pass the coliseum". It's still a bit convoluted. With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs (The stairs in front of the Hatch Shell) Feel at home Feel a tome? Maurice Tobin's not actually holding a book though. This is more tome-like. Not sure exactly where it is, though it's somewhere on the "Hatch Shell Circle". His bird has the right idea. All the letters Are here to see ...on the Hatch Shell, covered in the names of composers... Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Revere/Boston hint, also the 1812 performed at the Hatch Shell every year Lit by lamplight Another Revere confirmer which can also apply here In truth, be free "Truman" on the Tobin statue, seen looking towards the water from the Hatch Shell Still trying to find someone to take some photos of this area...

Re: the statue of David Ignatius Walsh , the motto Non Sibi Sed Patriae on his statue means "Not for self, but for country", and is associated with the Navy. Might explain why the globe is all sea and no land.

WhiteRabbit, could you get pictures like that of the guild steps??  they were built in 1917, which would fit the numbers in the oval..........and guess what!!  he was ambassador to russia.  i remember thinking this picture seemed nordic to me.................. hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2v ... ss&f=false curtis guild was ambassador to russia i'm thinking that feather is just a quill for a writer now, like longfellow (bridge, or statue (sailors monument), oliver wendell holmes (feel at home) holme's path guild steps: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/489 ... otostream/ i like how the next picture of wallyg's, the founder's memorial has "wee"  and "small" really getting confusing now with the "ether" monument and the image 2 lion, and the shaw memorial with the angel: hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_photos/4521200534/ hxxp://ctmonuments.net/2010/05/robert-g ... al-boston/

(I got those photos from Google...haven't been able to get anyone to wander round there with a camera yet...)

David again. I like this one now, with his tome, and the bird. Statue by Coletti (cf Folletti). Navy slogan -> "Intrepidly nautical". Listen my children and you shall hear Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five; Hardly a man is now alive Who remembers that famous day and year David's birthday was 11th Nov, Remembrance Day.

the steps leading down from the shaw monument are dedicated to ww i soldiers and sailors and the two elm trees are over 200 years old, and one supposedly planted by john hancock (all the letters are there to see) hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2v ... ss&f=false

the steps leading down from the shaw monument are dedicated to ww i soldiers and sailors and the two elm trees are over 200 years old, and one supposedly planted by john hancock (all the letters are there to see) hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=TX7S2v ... ss&f=false

Unknown: #1 The Boston Marathon does come down Beacon Street but changes to Boyleston over near Kenmore Square by Fenway Park, home of The Red Sox. The section of Beacon Street near the Esplanade is about 1 mile away from Kenmore Square. #2 The base around the Tobin Statue is all flagstone that is cemented in place. These stones cannot be removed without destroying them.The same goes for the cannon that they perform the 1812 around. #3 The statue you are now interested in faces the Hatch Shell from the front/left, about 250 feet from the front of the shell, at the base of The Arthur Fiedler footbridge.This monument does not face the water it faces the Hatch Shell #4 Take a good look at the stone work at the front of the shell. There are 5 levels/steps on both sides of the shell leading to the center of the shell. If you were to front and center while standing on the shell and look down, you would be in the tulip garden. Every spring thousands of tulips can be seen here. It is one of the only places in close proximity to the shell that you could actually dig. #5 Just for curiosity sake. have you considered the statue of George Patton. This statue is in front of the shell looking out at the water? Helpful reply from Boston: Patton has interesting possibilities. Coincidentally, he has the same birthday, Remembrance Day.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Re: the statue of David Ignatius Walsh , the motto Non Sibi Sed Patriae on his statue means "Not for self, but for country", and is associated with the Navy. Might explain why the globe is all sea and no land. This has a nice tie-in with Revere. " Non sibi . Not for self. Paul Revere forged this motto into Phillips Academy’s original seal 230 years ago." hxxp://www.andover.edu/about/Pages/default.aspx It's right opposite the Hatch Shell. Here it is from the back. We have Hatch Shell north for hair, Walsh statue south for box.

thing is whiterabbit?  shouldn't there be something "italian"  about tobin?  or is this area considered "little italy" the only thing i've seen that says "italian" is st. francis of assisi at the old north church, which is close to paul revere mall hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/videoqueen/3963850769/ are the commons and public gardens or that area considered part of little italy? still think "lit by lamplight is beacon street"........close to the guild steps

slappybuns wrote:: shouldn't there be something "italian"  about tobin? Unknown: To Copley Square the library presents a façade reminiscent of Palazzo della Cancelleria, a sixteenth century Italian palace in Rome. The arcaded windows of its façade owe a debt to the side elevations of Alberti's Tempio Malatestiano, Rimini, the first fully Renaissance building...Architect Charles Follen McKim chose to have monumental inscriptions, similar to those found on basilicas and monuments in ancient Rome... I've abandoned Tobin - this is David Ignatius Walsh. The trail starts at BPL, which is as Italian as spaghetti, and ends with "Non Sibi", which is Latin.

Hello, all!  Totally new here.  Found this board last night after searching to see if anyone out there remembered an obscure book I had when I was a kid, called "The Secret." Had never given this serious thought before, so if I'm repeating what's already been posted and have just missed it. I apologize.  I agree with the Boston/Esplanade thoughts totally.  Just a few thoughts and observations of my own. "green tower of lights": I agree Tobin Bridge, viewed from the Esplanade, the bridge is partially obscured by the Longfellow bridge, except for it's two "towers", which can be seen between the "towers" (I don't know the proper word) of the Longfellow bridge. "Feel at home".  A hotel?  There are several nearby, one, The Liberty Hotel, is on Beacon Hill.  Perhaps a link between "Feel at home", "Lit by lamplight", and "in truth be free."? There's also the Bull and Finch Pub (later renamed Cheers), which according to it's website, always had a warm,, friendly, cozy atmosphere. It's located on Beacon Street.  Maybe I'm reaching. Could the lines in the verse refer to several different landmarks that could be used to sort of triangulate the location of the casque? Or, if painting 11 is the correct image, coulld the globes and the star be a map?  With the globes being the landmarks and the star being the casque location? Again, new to this and unsure of how to look at the clues.

Hi Tzalos....welcome. The best thing to do is to (I know you'll hate this) literally slog through all the posts on this forum and see how things are put together and what people have already proposed.  I would start with the two that have already been solved, the Cleveland and Chicago casques. Those are Image 4 with Verse 4, and Image 5 with verse 12. You can learn a great deal by going over those two and seeing what Preiss did to hide the casques. Also keep in mind that this hunt is 30 years old and was published before many world-changing things happened: 9/11, Katrina, etc. Almost nothing will still be the same and that may make everything simply a moot point. The author has died, the prizes will not be given out, and after 30 years underground, even plexiglas falls apart. This hunt is probably a paper exercise only now, so don't be afraid to post whatever you wish--no one is going to "steal" your prize away from you if you do. Good luck with the research.

TzalosRex wrote:: Could the lines in the verse refer to several different landmarks that could be used to sort of triangulate the location of the casque? Or, if painting 11 is the correct image, could the globes and the star be a map?  With the globes being the landmarks and the star being the casque location? Hi Tzalos - Welcome to The Secret forum, the world's most patient band of armchair treasure hunters. ;) The most common approach is to consider the verse as a trail within the city which includes various things within the images. For instance, in the case of the solved Chicago puzzle (Verse 12 / Image 5): 1 Where M and B are set in stone – Symphony Hall ("Mozart" and "Beethoven" inscription, confirmed by Preiss) 2 And to Congress, R is known - thought to be  Roosevelt University 3 L sits and left - Lincoln statue 4 Beyond his shoulder - Casque The visual references for the Chicago image include various statues and other landmarks in the area of Grant Park such as The Bowman, Spirit of the Great Lakes, the front of Symphony Hall, and a fencepost near the location, as well as the Chicago Water Tower as a general "Chicago" clue. * * * * * With this in mind - although I still like the possible "Shaw" clue for the Hatch Shell in the opening lines of this verse, I'm currently seeing the Boston trail as something like: Boston Public Library (Thucydides) -> Commonwealth Ave (5 steps) -> Boston Public Garden (the green) -> Beacon St (tower of lights, marathon) -> Arthur Fiedler Footbridge (metal walls) -> Walsh statue (Revere) (Interesting suggestion about the nearby Bull & Finch.) WR

Hi Shecrab!  Hi White Rabbit!  Thank you both. Shecrab, I absolutely am and will be reading through posts, I just wanted to pop in and say hi instead of just lurking around for ages. (as I often do on forums ) I understand these hunts may lead to nothing, I'm OK with that. White Rabbit, Thanks for that.  Since I wrote the above, I've come across one of your earlier posts of it.  Verse as trail makes sense.  I often over-think riddles and such, maybe treasure hunts are the best place for me. The reason the Boston location grabbed me is because I grew up in Somerville, MA, just outside of Boston.  The idea that there is/was a casque so "close" is very cool to me.  Admittedly, like many who live near Boston, I didn't spend a great deal of time there.  I'm sure there are visitors who've a better knowledge of the city than I.

TRex, Welcome to the best group of "mentally challenged" treasure hunters you could possibly find on line!  (Did that come out right?) I know that you will add to the flow of ideas...and maybe even be the next "finder" of a coveted casque.  (No jewels are being awarded any more, so the casque itself has become the prize.) The Boston threads are many...Happy reading! AP

TzalosRex, you will find many confirmers in Copley Square, from the design on the cathedral to the shape of the land itself. Since so much has been reconfigured there, however, it's unlikely to yield a casque. But welcome to your ideas anyway!

animal painter wrote:: Welcome to the best group of "mentally challenged" treasure hunters you could possibly find on line!  (Did that come out right?)

up late, beer in hand, and I just want to put down in words my instinctual feeling after reading this verse- Feel at home / All the letters / Eighteenth day / 12th hour This section has a high school sort of fit: "home coming", "letterman", soon to turn 18 graduating 12th grade senior.

up late, beer in hand, and I just want to put down in words my instinctual feeling after reading this verse- Feel at home / All the letters / Eighteenth day / 12th hour This section has a high school sort of fit: "home coming", "letterman", soon to turn 18 graduating 12th grade senior.

Here's a random thought. "All the letters " could refer to the alphabet, and we commonly refer to the alphabet as the "ABCs." There are many businesses in the Boston area called "ABC something." Perhaps the casque site is within sight of one of these businesses? All the letters are here to see (or "R here, to C?" hmm...).

Here's a random thought. "All the letters" could refer to the alphabet, and we commonly refer to the alphabet as the "ABCs." There are many businesses in the Boston area called "ABC something." Perhaps the casque site is within sight of one of these businesses? All the letters are here to see (or "R here, to C?" hmm...).

or how about something having to do with the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog ?

@FB: "R here to C" wouldn't be all the letters. What about a post office?

@FB: "R here to C" wouldn't be all the letters . What about a post office?

shecrab wrote:: What about a post office? ...or just a post, maybe. Re: the characters on the circle: The lat and long for Boston are 42 / 71. The 42 appears on the bracelet. Maybe the two markings shown here on the arch to the left could be 17 for a reversed 71. This group of four numbers might then suggest the date 1719. This is when the Boston Gazette was founded. "The paper's masthead vignette, produced by Paul Revere, shows a seated Britannia with Liberty cap on staff, freeing a bird from a cage." In truth, be free (The 'escaping' fairy's resemblance to the character on the next page - image 12 - representing the Statue of Liberty might also tie in.) Re: posts, maybe the bird has some clues. With metal walls ...or the Arthur Fiedler footbridge...? Fiedler was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour "For the past 30+ years, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture has been performed during countless United States' Independence Day celebrations, due largely in part to an exhilarating performance by the Boston Pops in 1974, conducted by Arthur Fiedler." I'd like to try and find someone to wander round the Esplanade with a camera. Don't suppose you have any helpful contacts in Boston Tzalos...?  ;)

animal painter wrote:: I have been doing a bit more research on verse 3 which says: All the letters Are here to see There is a business in Boston's North End on Prince St. that BP could have been referring to. On Prince Street, just off Hanover St., near North Square (close to.. Mamma Maria's Restaurant and Paul Revere's house) is a small newspaper printing shop, (which has been in business for 110 years) called "The Post Gazette"/ North End Press (printer) No doubt, there used to be a lot of letters here...Printer's type. AP I had thought the same thing...On Boston's North End...

animal painter wrote:: I have been doing a bit more research on verse 3 which says: All the letters Are here to see There is a business in Boston's North End on Prince St. that BP could have been referring to. On Prince Street, just off Hanover St., near North Square (close to.. Mamma Maria's Restaurant and Paul Revere's house) is a small newspaper printing shop, (which has been in business for 110 years) called "The Post Gazette"/ North End Press (printer) No doubt, there used to be a lot of letters here...Printer's type. AP I had thought the same thing...On Boston's North End...

I'm wondering about the Thuc/Xeno bit.  Perhaps they provide the context for us to think 'Pelopponesian' which has the same number and start and end letters of 'Pennsylvanian' or 'Philadelphian'.

I'm wondering about the Thuc/Xeno bit.  Perhaps they provide the context for us to think 'Pelopponesian' which has the same number and start and end letters of 'Pennsylvanian' or 'Philadelphian'.

All the letters Are here to see An eye chart...? The New England College of Optometry at 424 Beacon St is one of the oldest in the US, founded by August Klein (August being the month for this image). The edge of the white building (circled) is the college, at one end of Hereford St. The short tower in the photos is the adjacent Church of Scientology. The tall tower is a building at the other end of Hereford St. Lit by lamplight In truth, be free Lit by lamplight - Beacon St...? If you follow it right to the end, it eventually stops where it runs into Washington St. The Ode on Washington's Birthday is a possible source for "In truth, be free". This is way out in Newton . I think the marathon goes along this route. At the junction is the Newton-Wellesley Hospital , founded on my fave date 1881 (from image 4). Newton's seal bears the inscription: "Liberty and Union". Longfellow Road runs alongside to the north for added Revere-ness. The other end of Beacon St. (red dot) in the heart of Boston is close to where Revere is buried (circle) - the Granary Burying Ground. It's got a bit of a cradle-to-the-grave ring to it.

All the letters Are here to see An eye chart...? The New England College of Optometry at 424 Beacon St is one of the oldest in the US, founded by August Klein (August being the month for this image). The edge of the white building (circled) is the college, at one end of Hereford St. The short tower in the photos is the adjacent Church of Scientology. The tall tower is a building at the other end of Hereford St. Lit by lamplight In truth, be free Lit by lamplight - Beacon St...? If you follow it right to the end, it eventually stops where it runs into Washington St. The Ode on Washington's Birthday is a possible source for "In truth, be free". This is way out in Newton . I think the marathon goes along this route. At the junction is the Newton-Wellesley Hospital , founded on my fave date 1881 (from image 4). Newton's seal bears the inscription: "Liberty and Union". Longfellow Road runs alongside to the north for added Revere-ness. The other end of Beacon St. (red dot) in the heart of Boston is close to where Revere is buried (circle) - the Granary Burying Ground. It's got a bit of a cradle-to-the-grave ring to it.

hi erexere i like your ideas on school, homecoming and everything, and bringing up thucydides and xenophon (both historians) i think it is saying historic road, like the freedom trail.  if the first lines of the verse are saying roads, then it could be saying "historic road" .  the freedom trail map shows today that the 5th stop is king's (castle in the image) chapel and burying grounds, and of course right after that is the first public school, with the plaque of the letters on school street (abc's, letters ) hxxp://www.aviewoncities.com/boston/freedomtrail.htm whiterabbit your picture of the bird's tail feather (hmm, the feather in the oval), made me think of bunker hill 11th stop, fanneuil hall: The next stop on the Freedom Trail is Faneuil Hall, a building known as the 'Cradle of Liberty' the 18th stop, would be going back, to copp's hill......in truth be free----cop's---jail----  be free,  lol

hi erexere i like your ideas on school, homecoming and everything, and bringing up thucydides and xenophon (both historians) i think it is saying historic road, like the freedom trail.  if the first lines of the verse are saying roads, then it could be saying "historic road" .  the freedom trail map shows today that the 5th stop is king's (castle in the image) chapel and burying grounds, and of course right after that is the first public school, with the plaque of the letters on school street (abc's, letters) hxxp://www.aviewoncities.com/boston/freedomtrail.htm whiterabbit your picture of the bird's tail feather (hmm, the feather in the oval), made me think of bunker hill 11th stop, fanneuil hall: The next stop on the Freedom Trail is Faneuil Hall, a building known as the 'Cradle of Liberty' the 18th stop, would be going back, to copp's hill......in truth be free----cop's---jail----  be free,  lol

(General brainstorming...) In the Chicago verse, the lines which apparently give the clearest indication of the specific position of the casque are 9/10 of 15. ("Fence and fixture / Central too"). In the Cleveland verse these seem to be 4/5/6 of 14 ("Beneath the tenth stone / From right to left / Beneath the ninth row from the top", if that's actually where it was found.) I was looking at verse 3 wondering if there might be a similar instruction somewhere early on; eg: "A green tower of lights / In the middle section", with green reminiscent of the peridot; the only obviously green thing in the picture. Revere and his beacon seem to be a significant feature of the verse... ...mostly he watched with eager search The belfry tower of the Old North Church... I quite like the way Beacon St has Revere near one end and Longfellow near the other, as well as the marathon route, so I was wondering about the "middle section" - perhaps Chestnut Hill Reservoir , a body of water pretty much in the middle of Beacon St, with the adjacent Cleveland Circle . The main feature of the image is the circle, which looks aquatic to me; like a porthole or something. Possibly also ophthalmological. (I'm also interested in a possible relationship between this figure and image 10, who appears similar and is apparently looking through the millstone circle at the image 11 circle. Image 10 has a key, and it's been suggested that image 11 has a keyhole. Image 10 has a lion, and image 11 corresponds to Leo.) Eighteenth day Twelfth hour 18th letter is R - Right / Revere 12th letter is L - Left / Longfellow In the middle is the 15th letter, O, the circle

The end of the marathon route from Newton to Boston: It seems to turn onto Beacon St at the reservoir. Interested to see it then goes Commonwealth...Hereford...Boyleston which takes it past that tall tower similar to the one on the box which I posted above. "The course route map continues on Commonwealth through the Newton Hills, bearing right at the reservoir onto Chestnut Hill Avenue to Cleveland Circle. The Boston Marathon 2011 route map then turns left onto Beacon Street continuing to Kenmore Square and then follows Commonwealth Avenue inbound. The course then turns right onto Hereford Street then left onto Boylston Street, finishing near the John Hancock Tower in Copley Square." Here are the two ends of Beacon St and the reservoir (22 on the route map)... So...yeah, I like the marathon thing; those who pass the Coliseum, a trail which seems to pass various things suggested in the verse & image, and a part of Boston history (eg see this piece on Bobbi Gibb ). This is the kind of spot I'm thinking about at the moment...steps beside the reservoir, the circle where the marathon turns onto Beacon St. just to the right.

In truth, be free Re: the Hatch Shell theory, I was thinking: True - T Be free - Hatch Thatch...? Thatcher St runs next to Freeman St. The section of Beacon St seen to the south is on the marathon route (shortly before it switches to Commonwealth Ave at Kenmore Square). Alternatively...free, vacant, empty, like the box. MT / Maurice Tobin.

WR, you may be onto something here. I like your building pic matches. Also, remember how this verse begins? If Thucydides is North of Xenophon If you look up where the word "marathon" comes from, an ancient Greek city and battle, you'll find lots of mentions of both Xenophon and Thucydides. For example: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon

"It is interesting to note that as Postmaster of the American Colonies, Benjamin Franklin had use of what is known as a "franking privilege." This privilege allowed him to mail letters free of charge like Congressmen. What is unique about Franklin's frank is that he signed his franking signature on out going mail as "B. Free Franklin." Historians believe that this alludes to his commitment to gaining freedom and independence from the English government. B. Free------be free hxxp://boston.povo.com/Benjamin_Franklin_Statue on school street--- along with the latin school mosaic with the ABC's hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/493150668/ and he has a cane

"It is interesting to note that as Postmaster of the American Colonies, Benjamin Franklin had use of what is known as a "franking privilege." This privilege allowed him to mail letters free of charge like Congressmen. What is unique about Franklin's frank is that he signed his franking signature on out going mail as "B. Free Franklin." Historians believe that this alludes to his commitment to gaining freedom and independence from the English government. B. Free------be free hxxp://boston.povo.com/Benjamin_Franklin_Statue on school street--- along with the latin school mosaic with the ABC's hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/493150668/ and he has a cane

Lit by lamplight In truth be free Nice find Slappy. Seems to be at the end of Beacon St., near where Revere is buried.

A lot of thiings in this thread seem to be coming together nicely.  I have a lot of confidence in that someone will figure it out once they spend some more time on location.  BPs "directions" seem to require close inspection of two or three sites based on what element is considered most significant on the image, right?  Was the chicago find really close to the castle type building in the hat?  And the wall and colomns are the big stand out for clevelands cultural gardens?  I'm thinking the large oculus (dome? Lantern and Pinecone at State House? ) is going to play the most significant role in tracking this one down. Here's further oculus research and other stuff: The inside of the Barker Library dome at MIT Did someone else already have this detail? The towers on the building were already pointed out to have some similarities.  My main interest is that it is across the street from the New England College or Optometry.  Something about all the blue orbs on Image 11 remind me of eyeballs, which are helpful when looking at art such as Copley.

erexere wrote:: Was the chicago find really close to the castle type building in the hat? I don't know what the castle is; it may be fictional. The hat includes the Chicago Water Tower as a windmill, as well as a couple of statues found in Grant Park - The Bowman and Spirit of the Great Lakes - and a distinctive fencepost. It was stuffed with leads compared to some of the other images. The exact location was given in the line: "Fence and fixture central too" - it was apparently between them. See here . (Another possibility which has been suggested for the Oculus - good word - is the Mapparium . This circle is the most striking thing in this image but it's still not clear what it is. And there's a curiously shaped crack in the 4-o-clock position which hasn't been identified either.)

The castle on the box does not have to be fictional at all. The Boston Park Plaza hotel nearl Copley Square is known as the "Castle" because it looks very similar to the castle in the image.

since paul revere was french the verse is either saying "longfellow"  or the places in the poem,  or maybe just boston. longfellow bridge longfellow house soldier's and sailor's monument--by land and sea from the poem, and longfellow is on a plaque are some of the  places with longfellow's name one thing i like about the hatch whiterabbit (except that he was russian), is that tchaikovsky's name is on it, and he wrote the 1812 overture (eighteenth day, twelfth night), which has been played there by the boston popps since 1929, every independence day (liberty) twelfth day, makes me think of shakespeare's twelfth night, and they have the shakespeare at the common, by the parkman bandstand i think, which is closer to the Holmes (feel at home) path. the soldier's and sailors monument and the parkman bandstand both have very large stone circular paths around them, be nice to have better pics of those paths just an aside.......wonder if another connection to all could be "scouts",  the girl scout trail in milwaukee,  james storrow (storrow drive, boston)  was a president of the boys scouts of america, and there was a scout trail in city park, new orleans also.......

erexere wrote:: Something about all the blue orbs on Image 11 remind me of eyeballs, which are helpful when looking at art such as Copley. Handy Longfellow summary. Incidentally I noticed this statue while exploring the route to the Hatch Shell...not a brilliant match but I thought I'd point it out anyway. (BPL circled left, statue circled right.) I'm thinking in terms of a trail from BPL via five steps (streets) / green ( Public Garden ) / tower of lights (Beacon St) to this point. Afterwards it might go towards one of two Shaw/Revere combinations - Hatch Shell / Longfellow Bridge or Robert Gould / Granary Burying Ground. (I'd forgotten, if I ever knew, that the Gould memorial was by Augustus.) One way, those who pass the Coliseum with metal walls could be marathon runners / Fiedler footbridge, and "be free" could be hatching / birthdays. The other way, could be soldiers / plaque / Franklin. The main thing that's drawn me to the Hatch Shell so far has been the visual matches, though these could just be in passing, like Milwaukee's Pabst Theatre, or "iconic", like the water tower. Re: Erexere's roof idea...Massachusetts State House roof near Gould also has possible visual connections to the main circle, or the globe stand...(and a Revere connection.) "Revere built the first copper rolling mill in the United States in Canton Massachusetts and our first products sheathed our ocean going Naval fleet (Old Ironsides), and covered the roofs of government buildings including the Massachusetts Statehouse." ...yeah, this always reminded me of weird glasses or optical equipment... (While I'm on the subject, another circular/optical possibility I considered was Patton's binoculars, another metallic Hatch resident.) I suppose if it turns out to be Gould after all, I could draw comfort from the fact there's a bird hatching an egg there too. The nearest water would be the frog pond... ...although having a frog opening the box instead of Walsh, isn't quite the same.

Hello again, Everyone.  I had a thought about the "castle" on the box.  Everyone seems to be trying to find the "castle", but what if this isn't one building, but several buildings that, when viewed from the casque site, line up like the picture on the box?  Even if true, that's not really helpful, I know.  About the verse, Googling "In truth, be free", I got a hit for John 8:32 (New Testament)... "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."  A paraphrasing?  Could the site be near a church?  I wasn't into the copley thing, but trinity does have a carving of Saint John (and Luke, et Al.) outside.  One more crazy thought, "18th day, twelfth hour"..Who was Rever going to meet?  Sam Adams and John Hancock .  Two John references?  Hancock Tower?  I'm going to just keep throwing my weird ideas at you all, for the record. P.S. My copy of the book came today.  Five dollars US on Ebay!  Yay!  Last time I held this book in my hand I was 10.  Good Night, Good Day, All.

TzalosRex wrote:: About the verse, Googling "In truth, be free", I got a hit for John 8:32 (New Testament)... "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."  A paraphrasing? Yep, you could imagine that the figure with the box is opening a wide book, with a slightly twisted perspective, and I'd wondered about this being a biblical reference, with a possible 1611 on the archway (King James Bible) and the resemblance between the flying fairy and the character "Faith" from Copley's Red Crosse Knight. Re: the castle, me and Erexere were talking about the one in Image 5. The one in this image is likely an adaptation or montage of a building or buildings like the Park Plaza hotel and/or a couple of buildings in Hereford or elsewhere. (There's another Boston building called a castle - the Boston University Castle - although it doesn't look like one.) Boston seems to be quite well endowed with turrets. For instance, here's another further out on the marathon route at the intersection of Beacon St and Dean Rd. Left to right, this view has the general low tower / high tower / building-end form. No crenelated walls though. It's currently Lubin Chiropractic . It's at 1751 Beacon St. Samuel Prescott was born in August 1751. He did the ride with Revere. In fact, he got through and Revere didn't. That would be quite a nice twist - not Revere's ride, but Prescott's ride...

congrats tzalosrex it's funny you should mention churches, i was doing the same last night, not because of the castle but because of the words "in truth, be free". i thought it was a quote from Jesus, tho, not John.  :( i was looking at the churches along the freedom trail. ............ king's chapel  (castle) :)  and it is the 5th stop on the freedom trail hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1stKi ... Boston.jpg look at the turret hxxp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TAWaREVqIFA/T ... Boston.JPG i remember long time ago, i thought that looked like a football helmet, behind the tall turret in the image, and with the line "near those who pass".......lol also remember there being a circular plaque in the commons or the public garden, of a writer, i remember it had a big feather quill pen (image  (top),  (gilbert stuart) plaque) i liked john hancock because he signed his name so large, for "all the letters are here to see" ck posted a pic on page 38 of this thread, of the curlicues , and it shows 5 small round leaves: remember how you guys were looking up fisk because of the dogleg in montreal.......look: "The musical tradition of King's Chapel dates back to 1713 when the church became the first in New England to acquire an organ. The present organ, the sixth, was made by C.B. Fisk in 1964. "

Some rough ideas here and it would be great to get a detailed closeup of the facade at 448 Beacon Street, which I simply found by taking five steps North and East of the BPL.  I interpreted X as the intersection at BPL and Copley Square and T as the nearest bridge that takes you to MIT's Engineering Library while taking a view from the steps of the Optometrist building.  There are lots of details yet for me to understand.  Understanding how the Freedom Trail works in is important and anything else related to a bird or L. Ron Hubbard might help. I like the window architecture angle, let's dig deeper into things glazier...

Metal walls. Oliver Cromwell was known as Old Ironsides . Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote a poem called Old Ironsides . Feel at home - Oliver Wendell Holmes...? Possible tie-in with green/olive/olivine in the litany. There's an Oliver Wendell Holmes walk on Boston Common, and he has a memorial sundial on the esplanade.

Oh, I see now.  I like that line of thinking, WhiteRabbit.  Does it seem possible the word 'green' is only a clue for olives in this case? Something I haven't been able to confirm is how long or when 448 Beacon was owned or occupied by the Church of Scientology.

Peridot of old Italy Antique and olivine and rich "Olivine" jumped out as a weird word. Just brainstorming, as this Boston one is driving me nuts. Seems so close yet so far, with almost too many possible leads. One of the key questions is where it would be practical to bury a casque. Do people think Boston Common is feasible, for instance...? Do they think the esplanade is feasible...? * * * * * Although I was previously talking about five steps to Commonwealth Ave, having tried it in Google Street View, five north steps to Beacon St. seems more likely, as several of the roads that appear on the map are just alleys. Five proper roads gets you to Beacon St.

Unknown: "Inscription:  (On front of pedestal:) OLIVER/WENDELL/HOLMES/1809-1894 (On back of pedestal:) PHYSICIAN/PHILOSOPHER/POET/A MAN HONORED/AND BELOVED/BY MANY/MCMXV (On exedra bench:) FOR OVER 20 YEARS/DR. HOLMES LIVED AT NO. 296/BEACON STREET. HIS LIBRARY/OVERLOOKS THIS MEMORIAL unsigned Description:  A semicircular plaza adorned with an exedra bench and two steps leading to a small circular pedestal. The pedestal is carved around the top with a shell design. Each end of the exedra bench is carved with a claw and ball foot." Unknown: Oliver Wendell Holmes' Boston residences 8 Montgomery Place, Beacon Hil, Boston (site no longer exists) 164 Charles Street, Beacon Hill, Boston (site no longer exists) 296 Beacon Street, Back Bay, Boston Holmes also had country houses on the North Shore (Beverly) and in the Berkshires (on "Holmes Road," in Pittsfield), where Herman Melville was his neighbor. I've been trying to figure out where the Oliver Wendell Holmes memorial is. According to Wiki, "Bostonians placed a memorial seat and sundial behind Holmes's final home at 296 Beacon Street". (He also has a memorial tablet at Kings Chapel, which is alongside Franklin and Revere.) The buildings in the pic seem to match the view from Storrow Drive behind 296 Beacon St., though I can't see it...maybe it's screened off, or has been relocated...

Head north just past the Hatch Shell and you get to Community Boating , opposite Revere St. Feel at home All the letters are here to see Home - House "All" the letters I am sailing, I am sailing, home again across the sea. I am sailing, stormy waters, to be near you, to be free.

A little further north again, you reach the area round the Longfellow Bridge. The pics of the longships in the intro remind me of the Viking ships on the bridge. The poet Henry Longfellow who wrote Revere's Ride had a younger brother Samuel Longfellow , a clergyman and hymn-writer. "One in the freedom of the truth" Longfellow Bridge north, Hatch Shell south, circle marks footbridge and steps. Steps and boathouse... I reckon the fairy somehow holds the key. This shape gets my attention. I'm reminded of the I12/Liberty/Bridge thing. There's a tower thing on the patch of green that corresponds to the Peridot in that lineup, near the footbridge stairs on the opposite side to the river. I like the look of that area.

Curious, what all connects Melville?  This Longfellow / hatch / sundial line up looks promising.

Been resting my attention to this verse for awhile, coming back to it I have this interpretation full of pomp and swank as usual... If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps T and X = Theta Chi, 1st fraternity at MIT.  Go 5x5 blocks north and west of Boston Public Library to the doorstep of Theta Chi. In the area of his direction "area" is a "square", find the square on the upper right corner of the occulus in P11, it corresponds to a square area below an overpass at Beacon/Charlesgate. A green tower of lights Charlesgate has green tower architecture, 'lights' are aligned here In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water your back to the stairs Feel at home In the middle of the block between the river and I-90 which allows people to pass by Fenway Park (green monster - 37' metal wall), Gil Stratton quote: "Time to call 'em as I see 'em" = coliseum.  Face the water = light post globes (water orbs in P11), and then the actual set of stairs in this area. All the letters Are hear to see New England College of Optometry Eighteenth day Twelfth hour 18th Greek letter = Sigma, 12th Greek letter = Mu.  Next door to Theta Xi is Phi Kappa SIGMA , Alpha MU chapter.  Day is subdivided by Hours is an analogy to the fraternity being subdivided into a chapter. Lit by lamplight In truth, be free More focus on lamps and light to find the aligning perspective where the lamp globes match those in P11. This pic shows the following: yellow arrow points to Fenway Stadium, orange triangle is staircase below overpass, red rectangle is Charlesgate Hotel with "green tower" design, blue dots are lamp globes, and green square is dig spot next to box and railing.

New Boston theory... If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Five traffic junctions north of the BPL onto Beacon St. A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Turn right and go east three blocks until you reach the metal walls of the Fiedler footbridge. Those who pass the coliseum are the marathon runners who go down Beacon St. The green tower of lights is the tower of traffic lights seen here with the green "Beacon" sign. Face the water At this point you can see the "Angel of the Waters" fountain in Boston Public Garden. Your back to the stairs Feel at home Behind you are the stairs of a private residence with wrought iron railings. All the letters Are here to see The inscription on the statue. It dates from 1924. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight Revere -> Boston. Also possibly 18th letter is "R", Day is "D", 12th hour is "XII", all visible in the inscription. The statue has a bunch of lamps near it. In truth, be free. The fairy flying out of the box, representing the statue. Also a possible quote from "Ode on Washington's Birthday" - there's a statue of Washington in the park a short distance south. (I sometimes wonder if the beginnings of BP's trails are obscurely connected with their endings. This one starts at Copley Square and ends at a statue represented in the image by what looks like a detail adapted from Copley's Red Cross Knight. My New Orleans theory starts at St Louis Cathedral and ends at the residence of one of its architects. Milwaukee starts at the German club with its grand lion staircase and ends at a lion bridge.)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: (I sometimes wonder if the beginnings of BP's trails are obscurely connected with their endings. This one starts at Copley Square and ends at a statue represented in the image by what looks like a detail adapted from Copley's Red Cross Knight. My New Orleans theory starts at St Louis Cathedral and ends at the residence of one of its architects. Milwaukee starts at the German club with its grand lion staircase and ends at a lion bridge.) Thats an interesting theory, apply it to Chicago and Cleveland and see if you get a hit.

'Take Five steps' gets one into the library from the correct side because the wrong side has a different number of steps leading into the building. 'In the middle section' is the description of the garden level of the BPL. 'Your back to the stairs, face the water' indicates where you need to be to dig in the correct spot. 'In truth, be free' reconfirms that the Free Public Library is the absolutely correct spot.

I know some of this has been pointed out before, but the names Xenophon and Thucydides have been etched elsewhere. BPL is one place, but two others are: 1. Stone tablets at the Greek Cultural Garden in Cleveland (yes, that garden!). 2. The old San Francisco Public Library, now the Asian Art Museum (NE corner of Larkin and Fulton).

forest_blight wrote:: Stone tablets at the Greek Cultural Garden in Cleveland (yes, that garden!) (I noticed Pindar also reappears on the Wright Brothers monument.)

That is most likely why BP put in the eightenth day, twelfth hour -  reference Paul Revere - and reconfirm for the hunter that Boston is the reference point.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Thats an interesting theory, apply it to Chicago and Cleveland and see if you get a hit. I think he might well have connected parts of his riddles--without a doubt. But a "trail?" That's the part I have trouble with. I don't think all the solutions have a "trail" to follow, and I think thinking that way will be the most sure way to gt us sidetracked. Of course, they don't all HAVE to have a trail--but some might.

...sure, I agree with you there.

I found the position of the small bright star fits a position for overlay with respect to the curve and square that fit overpass segment and park area opposite the Charlesgate building.  Follow a line from that point a short distance puts us right in the viscinity of Somerset and Mothers Rest.

shecrab wrote:: I don't think all the solutions have a "trail" to follow, and I think thinking that way will be the most sure way to gt us sidetracked. Of course, they don't all HAVE to have a trail--but some might. At this point, I agree with you there is just not enough evidence to say,  verse  wise, however image wise both cleveland and chicago contain imagery of two places, several miles apart that take you to the treasure ground that are connected by a straight route. I find evidence the same thing in SF and milwaukee and possibly N.O. That of course still doesn't mean it applies 100% Yet I am a firm believer in there being 1 method (however general) for solution for all the puzzles.  I may be wrong, but it seems to me we make a whole lot more tangible progress when we compare ideas to the known solutions, then we do when we make up far-fetched unique solutions.

I agree with you MF. I will give BP a little leeway in finding unique hiding places--but all in all, I think his methods for locating a burial site were probably consistent. I just have a little trouble believing that you start at a single point and TRACK your way to the casque. Yes, there is a single point in each image that pinpoints its city location. At least. But there isn't in the verses. We can find tons of iconic imagery. Shoot--he even GAVE us the latitudes and longitudes in those images! Just from that alone I can't imagine why any alternate locations are even being considered for some of these! But the verses--those are our bane. He was tricky sometimes, he didn't follow a single verse-method at ALL, and he threw in a bunch of stuff that may or may NOT have anything whatsoever to do with the solution. With the verses, he wasn't consistent. Some have specifics, some don't. THe verses were obviously cobbled together at the locations or soon after visiting the sites--but the images were ALL DONE at the same time, allowing Palencar to be a lot more consistent in his methods.

forest_blight wrote:: I know some of this has been pointed out before, but the names Xenophon and Thucydides have been etched elsewhere. BPL is one place, but two others are: 1. Stone tablets at the Greek Cultural Garden in Cleveland (yes, that garden!). 2. The old San Francisco Public Library, now the Asian Art Museum (NE corner of Larkin and Fulton). I don't remember this. I just did a forum search and nothing shows up. Were there any photos posted of the old library?

No, but I found lists online of the names that are chiseled in the tablets. If you view the building from Google street view and look up, the tablets are near the top of the facade. Search this thesis for "Xenophon" and you'll see it. hxxp://cardinalscholar.bsu.edu/bitstrea ... 2_BODY.pdf The same list can be found here (p. 23): hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=_5K_AA ... &q&f=false

lit by lamp light,could have 2 meanings,at about 5:10 starts the discussion of street lighting on comm,@ 5:40 laffer says it was a big deal,a switch from gas to electric again,during the bicentennial maybe there is a marker,stating that event hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4RRL0B5 ... grTIi3xrEZ Late 1970s early 1980s: A major MBTA Project – the Southwest Corridor Project – gets underway to replace the existing overhead orange line along Washington Street. This project involves streets from the Back Bay to Jamaica Plain. The Federal Government, under the Urban Systems Project, gets involved with the reconstruction of several major thoroughfares in the City during this time period. Streets like Blue Hill Ave, Tremont Street, and Columbus Ave are totally reconstructed with new roads, sidewalks, and lighting hxxp://www.cityofboston.gov/publicworks ... istory.asp more about the lighting, the project was called the Diamond Necklace on the pdf counter-pgs 1,68,72 hxxp://lightboston.org/diamondnecklace.pdf

Thanks FB. I will try to get some photos. The current Google street view isn't much help.

forest_blight wrote:: No, but I found lists online of the names that are chiseled in the tablets. If you view the building from Google street view and look up, the tablets are near the top of the facade. Search this thesis for "Xenophon" and you'll see it. hxxp://cardinalscholar.bsu.edu/bitstrea ... 2_BODY.pdf The same list can be found here (p. 23): hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=_5K_AA ... &q&f=false it seems as though on the SFPL, however, that Xenophon is north of Thucydides. this was the same with their names in Cleveland.

I believe the same list appears on the facade of the Multnomah County Library.  I did a scavenger hunt there last year that asked me to locate names on it.

If anyone seriously considers the "2 C's" area as a candidate, I think its important to understand it's not just a random spot in Boston.  In my mind it's not completely determined how we arrive at that spot or where we really start if there is in fact a path.  We all share the idea that BPL is the most sensible place, but there is an alternative or two to consider, which I won't discuss here.  The thing tghat interests me most is the string of connections to Paul Reveres Midnight Ride.  That is a Longfellow poem.  In reading the poem there is a clear reference to the Somerset warship.  The 2 C's right across from the building of the same name.  This is not a random assignment of significance.  If it means anything, it is to say we just learned of a location via research of a specific reference "eighteenth day, twelfth hour".  That process did not occur in Chicago or Cleveland.  Although this Boston casque remains to be recovered, we might still consider how one or more approaches might be needed to interpret these verses.

So, I overlayed the 2005 and the 1978 aerials in an attempt to jog old memories as to what the building is. I'm very interested in the possibility of this building being in Mothers Rest when the casque was buried. Could the building have had metal walls (aluminum or tin siding, a metal fence shaped like the dress as walls, etc.)? I've been thinking about AA (the Boston Conservatory) being on Fenway St. and directly across from the building. I've also been considering reading the entire verse as paired lines... Near those who pass the coliseum (near Fenway St., instead of near Fenway Park) With metal walls Face the water (along with the metal walls that face the water, you should face the water... i.e., get on the side of the building that faces the water) Your back to the stairs Feel at home (put you back to stairs of the building? and feel at the ground of Mothers Rest... i.e., dig here) All the letters Are here to see (across from Victory Gardens) Eighteenth day Twelfth hour (dunno, but its a naturally paired lined) Lit by lamplight In truth, be free (maybe a reference to a lamp mounted on the roof of the buidling?) I realize this supposes a lot; but, I am short on ideas for a dig spot and would like to rule in, or rule out this buildings inclusion in the puzzle. Anybody else looked more into my theory yet?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Could the building have had metal walls, a metal fence shaped like the dress...stairs...a lamp mounted on the roof... Unknown: This world-famous, three-story, painted-glass globe is one of the key attractions at the Library. Probably not. I think you're getting unnecessarily sidetracked by this thing. I still reckon it's behind this building, where lamps, stairs and a metal fence can actually be seen... I've been taking another look at the Mapparium at the Mary Baker Eddy library, and I reckon BP had it in mind for the globe. In truth be free She was always hammering on about truth and freedom; eg: "The Pilgrims came to establish a nation in true freedom."

Near those who pass the coliseum I've only just realised how close the Boston Marathon route passes to this Charlesgate location aka the 2C (circled below), and the fact that the finishing line is in front of the Boston Public Library. This is the route that "those who pass the coliseum" take... If Thucydides is north of Xenophon Take five steps in the area of his direction Perhaps "he" is Xenophon, and you start by taking five junctions southwest from the BPL along Boylston to Hereford St, retracing the Marathon route. There's a tower match at this junction which I've pointed out before... The "green tower of lights" could simply be this, remembering that the verse doesn't have to describe things in order... So to recap, you'd have: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Start following the marathon route backwards as far as the Hereford junction where you see a confirmer... A green tower of lights ...seen at the location In the middle section Dunno Near those Who pass the coliseum You're following the marathon route; this is close to the marathon route. With metal walls The fence Face the water Your back to the stairs Behind the building, beside the fence Feel at home Dunno All the letters Are here to see Possibly the nearby Victory Gardens, or the letters on the building. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight Revere, maybe also another reference to the green lamp[i]

Near those who pass the coliseum The Boston Coliseum was a temporary building in Copley Square. hxxp://www.celebrateboston.com/architec ... liseum.htm BP said that the homeland was significant. I guess the Italian connection is the Roman Coliseum which marks the end of the Rome marathon just as the BPL and Copley Square mark the end of the Boston marathon. The Boston marathon takes place on Patriot's Day, which provides a Revere connection. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriots'_Day Twelfth hour It traditionally started at 12.00am. "...20,000 runners taking off from the town of Hopkinton at the hallowed noon hour as has been the case since 1924..." Starting at the BPL, the tall tower shown above is five turnings down Boylston marking the turn on the marathon route. This is (1) on the map. Turn up Hereford, and on the corner of Hereford and Commonwealth where the route turns left (retracing) is this building at (2) ... Sure, it's another castle, whoop-de-do.  ;) If you glance right here you can wave at Sarmiento. (His statue is on Commonwealth between Hereford and Gloucester.) Retrace the marathon route a bit further along Commonwealth and you find yourself at the 2C. You can see the Citgo sign at the turning (3) . The 2C is at (4) . The puzzle revolves around the marathon route. The key is finding the coliseum/BPL/marathon connection and then realising that you're being guided back along the route via directions and visual signposts until you reach the stairs by the water and the green tower of lights (beside the cross). Simple.  :)

You do realize that Marathon is as famous a Greek import into our culture as Xenophon and Thucydides.

Yeah, it does tend to recall the Greek puzzle...

I've been considering the BPL --> Boylston --> turn right on Massachussets --> turn left at Newbury route.  The Berkley School of Music building looks very Colosseum-esque.

sorry, trying to catch up on this thread? why the focus on the Boston marathon? The verse says near those who pass the coliseum, not follow those who pass the coliseum which seems to say at one point in the verse you will get near those who pass the coliseum. and while once a year the marathon does, unless you were solving the puzzle on marathon day, you are never Near those who pass the coliseum. its not saying be near their route, it says near them. In this area the only thing that fits that description is the people on the freeway that passes the "coliseum" unless I am missing something I don't think the idea about the Boston Marathon root is valid.

erexere wrote:: The Berkley School of Music building looks very Colosseum-esque. maltedfalcon wrote:: why the focus on the Boston marathon? The verse says near those who pass the coliseum, not follow those who pass the coliseum...its not saying be near their route, it says near them. In this area the only thing that fits that description is the people on the freeway that passes the "coliseum" Trohn wrote:: Near those who pass the coliseum Could BP be referring to the Boston Marathon, while the original olympic marathon ended in the Athens Coliseum, the modern Boston Marathon ends in Copley Park. maltedfalcon wrote:: unless you were solving the puzzle on marathon day, you are never Near those who pass the coliseum. No it doesn't. And it's not even on your route. I'm not sure what coliseum you're referring to...? Having discovered that there was a building called the Boston Coliseum in Copley Square, I think this is undoubtedly one reference. I'm thinking that the verse and image are leading you back along the route of the marathon from the BPL to the 2C, which is "near those who pass the coliseum"; ie, near marathon runners. Aw c'mon, it's a riddle. I think you're being a bit too literal here. "Near the marathon route" is close enough.

I was thinking of this building at Boylston/Mass. I'm with maltedfalcon on the "Near" idea, which is why I'm not too keen on following the Commonwealth route.  Newbury/Mass/Boyleston are all "Near" rather than on the literal Marathon route.

erexere wrote:: I'm with maltedfalcon on the "Near" idea, which is why I'm not too keen on following the Commonwealth route.  Newbury/Mass/Boyleston are all "Near" rather than on the literal Marathon route. This doesn't make sense. Boylston and the BPL are the final stretch of the marathon route. I'm saying the 2C is near the marathon route. Following the course of the marathon route back to this area seems more rational to me than almost-but-not-quite following it, especially since there are visual confirmers. But what the heck, as long as you finish up at the right place that's OK.  ;)

While I am enthusiastic about considering all possibilities, I just cannot understand how you get to 2Cs using the verse. Feel at home , when paired with All the letters are here to see cannot possibly mean "all the letters are here where you stand, at something that looks like 2 letter Cs." The shape of the walls doesn't even look distinctly like 2 Cs, nor do they resemble any part of the image closely. Using the verse to lead you to this place is just... askew. Basing the whole theory around interpretation of the line meaning 2 Cs is rubbish. Sorry to be blunt.

You're paraphrasing to occlude the homophone "to see" as "2 C".

yes, i am.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Basing the whole theory around interpretation of the line meaning 2 Cs is rubbish. There's a bit more to it than that. A green tower of lights With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs You're trying to solve this verse at Mother's Rest by imagining these things might have been there once, ignoring the fact that you can actually see them a short distance away.

It might be misleading to talk about a "trail". Let's just say the verse has a number of references. One of these is to the BPL at Copley Square. ("The Coliseum" was a large, well-known building in Copley Square. I think it's likely that the verse is referring to this, rather than some sports stadium several miles away.) Now, after Four21thrasher put us in the right area, Erexere made the excellent suggestion that the casque is at the 2C, based on evidence like this. . Perhaps the reversed metal "S" on the dress was inspired by the reversed metal "S" on the entrance gate to Somerset House opposite the 2C. It also matches various lines in the verse as shown above. So we've got the library, and the 2C, at A and B. (Don't be put off by the nomenclature - I'm not saying it looks exactly like two "C"s, that's just what we're calling it because we don't know what else to call it.) If you superimpose the final stretch of the Boston Marathon onto this map, it provides a rationale... The original marathon ended at the Coliseum, and the Boston one ends at a place where there was also once a building called "The Coliseum". We can surmise that "those who pass the coliseum" is a cryptic reference to marathon runners, and observe that the 2C is near the marathon route, thus fitting the line "near those who pass the coliseum". This also hints at a method for finding it - the "green tower of lights" at the 2C can be seen towards the end of the route. If you also consider the visual confirmers along this route... ...it starts to look pretty convincing IMHO. The lines: Feel at home All the letters are here to see ...aren't explained particularly well here, but I didn't think "Feel at home" was very convincing for Mother's Rest either. They could be at the location, something we've seen, or something we've overlooked, something along the route, something more generally "Boston" - who knows. But there's already plenty to go on and a specific place to dig.

I still would like to consider a possible break in the line "near those who pass" | "the coliseum". The Somerset ship was nearby as Paul and his mate passed by rowboat.

Only a casque could prove the site, but even a casque couldn't tell us what BP was thinking. It's a nice connection though.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: You're trying to solve this verse at Mother's Rest by imagining these things might have been there once, ignoring the fact that you can actually see them a short distance away. I am trying to solve the verse at Mothers' Rest by doing research about what the place contained at the time, not by imagination. I've asked for input and help many times, but the boards remained silent. I've asked for you to better explain your theory so I can better consider it, and you just keep going on about the 2Cs. How bout the 5 steps in his direction? Feeling at home? I'm tired of asking the same questions and getting no answers. How am I supposed to be persuaded (not that persuasion is what is important). I've also NOT ignored the fact that 2Cs is close by (although, its not nearly as close as you pose and cannot be seen from the Mothers Rest location), and provided much input as to how it might work. Who pointed out that the Citgo sign is viewable from both MR and 2C? The fact that you cannot name the place though, is significant to me. The fact that the place I've found is called Mothers Rest (named to complement the house on Revere Beach), is well known and historic, is in direct view of ALL the letters and has been for 70+ years... this is all quite consistent with the other solves and purposed solves. The 2Cs only very slightly resemble the image you pasted. Are there other image confirmers in puzzles that resemble their real life counterparts to that slight of a degree? You've cut off a significant portion of the backwards S, which seems to be connected to another letter or two... even some numbers in that mess. You want the S to work so bad you call it "metal," but it has leaves on it like a vine. Have you considered the AA that is on the brick opposite, and is a much more defined shaping than the Citgo sign? I can dismiss the Citgo sign very easily, as I'm sure you could also. Why aren't we having conversations about these things, rather than just saying 'you're wrong'. I've contacted people, I've gotten pictures, I discarded my own theories after investigation (remember the wall?). I am not afraid to be wrong. I am just tired of people getting so stuck in their own theories that they refuse to help construct others' (as opposed to destruct). It defeats the purpose of sharing information, of this board.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: The fact that you cannot name the place though, is significant to me. The fact that the place I've found is called Mothers Rest (named to complement the house on Revere Beach), is well known and historic. Unknown: I've asked for you to better explain your theory so I can better consider it, and you just keep going on about the 2Cs. How bout the 5 steps in his direction? Unknown: You want the S to work so bad you call it "metal," but it has leaves on it like a vine. Hirudiniforme wrote:: I've asked for input and help many times, but the boards remained silent. The equivalent placename to Mothers Rest is Charlesgate Park. There's not much left of it though. I don't know what this particular structure is called, just as you don't know what the MR building was called, so I just carry on referring to it as the "2C". To suggest that I haven't attempted to explain it beyond "going on about the 2Cs" just isn't true. Didn't you read the last couple of pages? I'm not bothered about it, just throwing it out there. Doesn't it look like metal to you? Overall you've received quite a lot of suggestions and encouragement about Mothers Rest, but I don't think people have anything else to add. I'm still hoping you go to Boston sometime, because I doubt anyone else ever will.

Unknown: I am just tired of people getting so stuck in their own theories that they refuse to help construct others' (as opposed to destruct). It defeats the purpose of sharing information, of this board. I, for one, am BONE tired of the same thing. I would like to see your theory tested, because we pretty much exhausted the other theories in Boston, namely most of those at Copley Plaza and the Library. I can't think how we can test it, however, unless some digging is done. If I didn't live in Ohio, and Boston was not a 12 hour drive, I would be happy to help look and dig; unfortunately, it's not very convenient for me. I am also bone tired of these oblique references based on layer upon layer of word-manipulation, reverse engineering, and satellite imagery that would not have been part of the original concealment, and probably not been a part of the riddle in any way. When anyone DOES refute those types of ideas, the refutation is met with either (a) disbelief that one might even consider such a thing or (b) whining. Meaningful exchange goes right out the window in the face of such opposition. Four21, I like your Mother's Rest ideas. I think it incorporates a lot of the verse. I was not successful in finding any on-line pictures to support what you had already posted, to see if it has any support there--so until someone does go and photograph everything in the vicinity, and puts it where it can be evaluated, I'll just have to trust your ideas; and wait for someone to actually dig. At any rate, the reason for the silence is not necessarily because someone doesn't agree.

shecrab wrote:: At any rate, the reason for the silence is not necessarily because someone doesn't agree. Cool, my suggestions clearly meet with more widespread approval than I'd realised.  :)

(+1 for the digging idea.)

"one IF by land, two IF by sea" I think the first word of the verse, "If" implicates the usage of this farmers lamplight coded message. 2 if by C.  I don't regard the word "letters" as an alphabetical reference.  I think of it in the message sense.  To paraphrase, "all the lights are here to see", since the lamp light was the message used to ready the resistance to British attack from the Somerset warship.

erexere wrote:: "one IF by land, two IF by sea" I think the first word of the verse, "If" implicates the usage of this farmers lamplight coded message. 2 if by C. this is actually quite an interesting justification, but continue your logic... since there is only one "if," does that mean it is not by 2C? Kind of like how we thought "If T is north of X" was an equation, but we were missing the "then" statement... You weren't supposed to go on because the first part of the equation was true. Funny how these two assumptions would link the lines that are formulaic wordplay of 'if' statements. Just musing.

I think the "if" portion of the Thucydides line had its own reason.  This could be it. This leads me to consider the first word of the next line for its own purpose..."North".  Perhaps this is the clue needed to see the Viking element and consider the Leif statue as the intended source for "his direction".  The statue faces west. Btw, Norse is North.

Gad. This is needlessly complicated. You don't have enough stuff to satisfy "all the LETTERS are here to see?" Have you looked in the vicinity for a freakin' POST OFFICE? or Mailbox?  Why do you always think there is such cryptic wordplay in these verses?

shecrab wrote:: Gad. This is needlessly complicated. You don't have enough stuff to satisfy "all the LETTERS are here to see?" Have you looked in the vicinity for a freakin' POST OFFICE? or Mailbox?  Why do you always think there is such cryptic wordplay in these verses? In the sense that Paul Revere's Ride by Longfellow might bring context to this verse, I think its a good approach to consider the usage of "letter" as meaning epistle or message by post, but to consider that the British cut off the usual routes for communication, it was left to lamp lights in the North Church tower to communicate a vital message.

Feel at home. Mothers Rest.  To feel comforted at your mother.  Being home where you can rest.  This location, approached as an option by derivation of its name, is a very good interpretation.  The incorporation of how much of the verse to get there is still unclear.  The main ideas so far suppose that five "steps" means five junctions and all the "letters" refers most litterally to alphabet named rows in a garden adjacent to the location.  Incorporation of image elements has us looking for cracks in stones, arch or circular shaped features.  There's a lot that might be revealed should a person go to the site for a closer look.  I'm sure we all feel that way.  I'm not ready to dismiss this theory which I believe has a lot of vitality, but I am interested in looking at alternatives. Home.  In a baseball sense, means homeplate.  At home plate you are either sliding in for a score or you're facing the picher waiting for a chance to hit the ball.  I suppose you could also be catching or umpiring.  I like the image pairing motif of T-ball, how playful is that!?  I like that the little house structure adjacent to the 2C is simple and not cryptic in any way...it has a roof, a door, a window, some steps, the perfect little cottage for an aspiring writer to become the next Jules Verne...  I think the baseball idea comes from a few items.  The Green Monster is a good candidate being the word 'green' plays a part in the verse and mention of 'coliseum' aides in exploring the nearby Fenway Park Stadium as an option.  The Citgo sign is viewable over the left field wall.  The Green Monster obstructs view of the Somerset (2C) site.  If anything is analogous to the moment where the large overpowering reflection of the moon helping Paul Revere and his men row past the Somerset unnoticed, then this Green Monster is just that, though it's a rectangular instead of round body. (see rectangular semi-translucent pane at the bottom lower right of center in image 11) I think the underpinnings of Revere's Ride fit the 2C site better than the Mother's Rest site.  The Green Monster doesn't actually obscure view in the direction of Mother's Rest, but that doesn't serve as enough reason to debunk.  I'm only finding it easier to see the prospects of a novel clustering of T-ball shaped lamp globes in a park corner containing a little "home" and those circular shaped stone features.

erexere wrote:: In the sense that Paul Revere's Ride by Longfellow might bring context to this verse, I think its a good approach to consider the usage of "letter" as meaning epistle or message by post, but to consider that the British cut off the usual routes for communication, it was left to lamp lights in the North Church tower to communicate a vital message. So what? That's just a one-off. It happened ONCE, and it wasn't the only way the message was communicated, either. Boston happens to the be the site of the first post office in America. To wit: "The first post office in Boston—and probably in the first in America—was established in the home of Richard Fairbanks, on or very near the site of the [old] Boston Globe building in 1639. On November 6 of that year, the Court voted: Site of First Post Office '[color=purple]For preventing the miscarriage of letters; & it is ordered, that notice bee given that Richard Fairbanks his house in Boston is the place appointed for all letters which are brought from beyond the seas, or are to be sent thither, are to bee brought into; and hee is to take care that they bee delivered or sent according to their directions; and hee is allowed for every such letter 1 penny, & must answere all miscarriages through his owne neglect in this kind; provided, that no man shalbee compelled to bring his letters thither, except hee please .' " Richard Fairbanks was an influential person in Boston, England, and had emigrated to Boston, New England with Reverend John Cotton in 1634. His house also served as a public tavern, and was licensed to sell "stronge water" by the government. The property had a large garden that extended east to Devonshire Street, then known as Black Jack Alley. [/color] Note my emphasis on Boston GLOBE. There's a prominent GLOBE in the picture. My point is that there are better interpretations out there. More pertinent ones. More LIKELY ones. Paul Revere's Ride and REference do not have to be there for any reason other than to point us to Boston.

I really like that first post office idea and the globe connection.  Now to unfurl my brain of excess bubblewrap to consider a sensible way to work that historically relevant intel...

Unknown: The original logo depicted Paul Revere on horseback with the words "Massachusetts Turnpike Authority" in a circle around him. Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Could "Feel at home" be a reference to country of origin, and Boston's Italian connection...? We're given the home countries and a method to link them with images. BP has been known to work with verse initials. Is this the only verse with all the letters of a country of origin, ITALY, in its initials...? That could make this a clue to connect verse and image. We haven't seen many of those. I noticed a possible Revere connection to the 2C. It's beside the Massachusetts Turnpike... ...which used to have Revere as the logo. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Turnpike There are hundreds of names on the BPL. Why Thucydides and Xenophon...? Maybe there's something in that Horace / Go West idea... The "take five [-5] steps" are what you find when you get there.

I'm down with the MTA sign, WR. Great find!

I just thought briefly about the falcon being a clue to use a skytale on the verse.  Put all the letters on one line and wrap it around a stick (no clue about what dimensions to use) continuously and see if the letters line up to make anything else...not that silly of an idea considering it was the only cryptographic method written about by both Thucydides and Xenophon (Kahn, David. 1967).

erexere wrote:: I just thought briefly about the falcon being a clue to use a skytale Makes more sense than the Count Falconara theory I was wondering about earlier. (Character in a novel by Horace Walpole .)

I see it has an alternate spelling, scytale.  does the falcon's claw look like a scythe? I've ran all kinds of passes on this verse, just to waste my time of course...I'll have to say it doesn't look like there's any secret message snuck into this verse....

erexere wrote:: ... Like the M and B were glimpse references to the full name inscriptions Mozart and Beethoven, I think the lines "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour" are a similar glimpse reference to the full poetic piece.  M and B represented a site location in Chicago. It seems the best thing to extract from the poem in terms of a site location is something callled Somerset. Using the logic of the first two factual statements and the theory that we should be reading this as literary reference and not simply Paul Revere/Boston, wouldn't the logic be that the best thing to extract is the full text of the poem's lines that are quoted: Listen my children and you shall hear Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five; Hardly a man is now alive Who remembers that famous day and year. It was twelve by the village clock When he crossed the bridge into Medford town. He heard the crowing of the cock, And the barking of the farmer’s dog, And felt the damp of the river fog, That rises after the sun goes down. On a tangent, but timely thought... "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour"... it's literal Layer 1 Interpretation: it means look for a place on the 18th day and 12th hour ?? it's referencing Paul Revere's Ride poem Layer 2 Interpretation: it means look for Paul Revere something Layer 3 Interpretation: it means the Longfellow Bridge Layer 3.5 Interpretation: it means cross a bridge (you're being given directions) Layer 421 Interpretation: it means look Summerset for something

I don't see how it makes sense to extract only a portion of the poem.  The crossing of a bridge doesn't seem to be a real point of tension.  Crossing undetected by the Somerset makes this poem memorable.  The ship and the crossing was factual.  The poem fictionalizes some details for effect. The Landlord's Tale. Paul Revere's Ride By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Listen, my children, and you shall hear Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five; Hardly a man is now alive Who remembers that famous day and year. He said to his friend, "If the British march By land or sea from the town to-night, Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch Of the North Church tower as a signal light,— One, if by land, and two, if by sea; And I on the opposite shore will be, Ready to ride and spread the alarm Through every Middlesex village and farm, For the country folk to be up and to arm." Then he said, "Good night!" and with muffled oar Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore, Just as the moon rose over the bay, Where swinging wide at her moorings lay The Somerset , British man-of-war; A phantom ship, with each mast and spar Across the moon like a prison bar, And a huge black hulk, that was magnified By its own reflection in the tide. Meanwhile, his friend, through alley and street, Wanders and watches with eager ears, Till in the silence around him he hears The muster of men at the barrack door, The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet, And the measured tread of the grenadiers, Marching down to their boats on the shore. Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church, By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread, To the belfry-chamber overhead, And startled the pigeons from their perch On the sombre rafters, that round him made Masses and moving shapes of shade, — By the trembling ladder, steep and tall, To the highest window in the wall, Where he paused to listen and look down A moment on the roofs of the town, And the moonlight flowing over all. Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead, In their night-encampment on the hill, Wrapped in silence so deep and still That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread, The watchful night-wind, as it went Creeping along from tent to tent, And seeming to whisper, "All is well!" A moment only he feels the spell Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread Of the lonely belfry and the dead; For suddenly all his thoughts are bent On a shadowy something far away, Where the river widens to meet the bay, — A line of black that bends and floats On the rising tide, like a bridge of boats. Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride, Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere. Now he patted his horse's side, Now gazed at the landscape far and near, Then, impetuous, stamped the earth, And turned and tightened his saddle girth; But mostly he watched with eager search The belfry-tower of the Old North Church, As it rose above the graves on the hill, Lonely and spectral and sombre and still. And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height A glimmer, and then a gleam of light! He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns, But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight A second lamp in the belfry burns! A hurry of hoofs in a village street, A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark, And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet: That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light, The fate of a nation was riding that night; And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight, Kindled the land into flame with its heat. He has left the village and mounted the steep, And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep, Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides; And under the alders, that skirt its edge, Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge, Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides. It was twelve by the village clock, When he crossed the bridge into Medford town. He heard the crowing of the cock, And the barking of the farmer's dog, And felt the damp of the river fog, That rises after the sun goes down. It was one by the village clock, When he galloped into Lexington. He saw the gilded weathercock Swim in the moonlight as he passed, And the meeting-house windows, blank and bare, Gaze at him with a spectral glare, As if they already stood aghast At the bloody work they would look upon. It was two by the village clock, When he came to the bridge in Concord town. He heard the bleating of the flock, And the twitter of birds among the trees, And felt the breath of the morning breeze Blowing over the meadows brown. And one was safe and asleep in his bed Who at the bridge would be first to fall, Who that day would be lying dead, Pierced by a British musket-ball. You know the rest. In the books you have read, How the British Regulars fired and fled, — How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farm-yard wall, Chasing the red-coats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load. So through the night rode Paul Revere; And so through the night went his cry of alarm To every Middlesex village and farm, — A cry of defiance and not of fear, A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door, And a word that shall echo forevermore! For, borne on the night-wind of the Past, Through all our history, to the last, In the hour of darkness and peril and need, The people will waken and listen to hear The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed, And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

erexere wrote:: I don't see how it makes sense to extract only a portion of the poem.  The crossing of a bridge doesn't seem to be a real point of tension. Crossing undetected by the Somerset makes this poem memorable. The ship and the crossing was factual.  The poem fictionalizes some details for effect. i only extracted the portion to which the verse 'quotes' in order to put the lines in their context (what i later referenced as a 3.5-layer deep interpretation, which I consider too deep to consider, and only provided for context as to how deep of a layer the Somerset interpretation was). the two stanzas seem important to extract because the "twelfth hour" is quite specific, especially considering that the poem mentions things that happen at 12, 1 ,and 2 o'clock hours. clearly the Somerset is not what makes this poem memorable (what I referred to as a 421-layer deep interpretation). What is the first thought that pops into your mind when you hear "eighteenth day, twelfth hour?" Paul Revere and Boston, not the Somerset! You didn't even know about the Somerset until you researched an arbitrary line that is not even quoted from the poem!

I disagree.  Read the poem and tell me people weren't excited when Longfellow mentions the warship.  It's like the most intense scene in Shawshank Redemption where you think they'll get caught while escaping. By the way, nice job being as specific as possible about your layers of interpretation. Eh, it's in the poem. Lines 19-23. There's an assortment of objects mentioned in the poem, but of them, only a couple aren't arbitrary.  The Northtower, perhaps the clock (I don't know where that is), and the Somerset.  The Longfellow bridge is also a consideration.  Anything else?

erexere wrote:: There's an assortment of objects mentioned in the poem, but of them, only a couple aren't arbitrary.  The Northtower, perhaps the clock (I don't know where that is), and the Somerset.  The Longfellow bridge is also a consideration.  Anything else? NO! Please, God, NO!

I just noticed the title of the poem was changed to "The Landlord's Tale".  Doesn't that go with "Feel at home"? Or would it go better with "Feel evicted"?

If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Similar to “Where M and B are set in stone,” both in placement and structure/interpretation. This just tells us a general place, or place to start… the BPL. Take five steps In the area of his direction This means go North on Dartmouth St. from looking at BPL, to Back St. Then take five streets on Back St., to where it meets with Charlesgate. “in the area of his direction” means “toward North.” But it also means “in the area of his [possessive] direction [gate – to gate is to direct, to gait is to move].” In the area of whose direction then? … well, his direction... his gate … Charles' direction … Charles' gate… toward North and toward Charlesgate! So how do we know start taking those steps on Back St. going toward Charlesgate (and not toward Hatch where there are also image clues)? Because the latter verse must be taken out of chronology..the “your back to the stairs”…  steps… back…  means the steps are on Back. When you get to that latter line in the verse, you come back to the "steps" because it tells you definitively where you are --- "your [you're] back to the stairs." So, you gotta go back to the line where the steps are to be back at the stairs. When you get back to where the steps are, the five steps are Back cause you are back to the stairs! This is a jarbly mess, I know. It's half-circular logic, but it's simple substitution and should be read as: Take Back St. Toward Charlesgate Take five steps In the area of his direction Your back to the stairs A green tower of lights In the middle section Take Charlesgate to the green lamppost, which is in the middle section below the overpass. Near those Who pass the coliseum Near the overpass (those who pass anything overpass by definition), the Bowker overpass more specifically. I really think this might have a tad more/different meaning. With metal walls The electrical box. Face the water Look straight in front of you toward the water (i.e., look at the image and see a corresponding image of what is right in front of you to confirm). Your back to the stairs **This must be read and understood with the “take five steps” section above. Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Mothers Rest and Victory Gardens nearby… Reads and describes nearby locations very similar to “Seek the sounds of rumble, brush and music,” and is placed in a similar position. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour No idea. Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. The electrical box is lit by lamplight, which may be the lamp in the bottom right corner. This also may have to do with "T" for truth marking the spot. In the image, the T would mark the spot  on the corner of the electrical box (which is seated on a 3-foot high block of concrete by the way, so digging there would be safe). This is also like the chicago solve in that you do not need the image. There are, however, many image confirmers en route and also images symbolizing the city. This is a very straight and direct path if you look at the map.

I'd agree that Back St seems the likeliest route from the BPL. I'm not really drawn to that electricity box though. The pump house seems to have more that fits in with the verse and image...steps, letters, etc. Its sign has a white circle on a green square. It would be good if we could get some photos of the thing...there are some features that are hard to make out which might be represented somewhere in the image.

But the images don't lead you... the verse does.

Verse-wise, I'd go with facing the water behind those steps myself...

Thankyou for your latest contribution fo21.  I think you have the right approach.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Verse-wise, I'd go with facing the water behind those steps myself... I just really think that the steps aren't literal, and that we will not use/see real steps in finding the location of the casque. My thought is that the only reason "steps" and "stairs" are mentioned is to get us to link the lines and elicit Back St. to Charlesgate. This interpretation means you are at the location when you "face the water" along "with metal walls" that also face the water. You do not "face the water" with "your back to the stairs." Confirmation of this for me is that we have the exact image in front of us from the picture. Think about the Cleveland and Chicago solves... the site was directly connected to a substantial section of the image depicted in real life. Again, though, the site can be found using the verse only, and does not RELY on the image. For instance, Hatch/Esplanade "seems to have more that fits in with the verse and image..." as well as Copley and Trinity, but the verse leads us elsewhere. In general, the images seem to contain a lot of confirmers that are red herrings if we follow them. Instead, follow the verse almost exactly (when ordered properly), and some image confirmers will be seen on the way, while the others are simply to distract us from the path if we try to follow them, yet they still confirm the city/general surroundings. There is only one portion of the image which is exact at the site, and it is generally (given 2 solved sites) a comprehensive chunk of the image, not the merging of a bubble from over here and a green square over there. I think of it this way: A map is scattered with pins marking each of the image confimers. No matter which image confimer you are at, you are drawn to another as a possible solution. But... If you pick up the verse and decipher it properly, a path leads through some of those points to the casque location. While the path does not visit all of the points, some of them will be seen on the way. There is no image path, and only confusion if you let the images guide you.

What are the candidates for a specific dig spot location method?  Alignment of 2, 3, or 4? A---B---X A---X------B | | C or A | B----X----C | D?

huh?

As you process the pieces of the puzzle, I suspect some of them will yield to a method of alignment.  Cleveland was laid out as a count of stones from right to left, Chicago was a spot on a grid between to landmarks.  What parts of this pic/verse are considering and what kind of approach would best fit the Boston site?

I guess it is easier said in hindsight, but the Cleveland solve seemed to pinpoint the spot (using the verse only, I might add) out of necessity. The location was more-or-less in a planter, and BP couldn't have us digging the whole thing up. Chicago, on the other hand, was not at all precise in defining the dig location with either the verse or the image. There was a bit of trial and error needed, but you were pretty much led to within several feet of the spot by correctly interpreting the verse only. Based on this, the only similarity is you do not need the image, but it will help confirm the path. As far as the exact dig spot, we have 2 different solves - 1) and exact spot; and 2) you are put in a place where there is only a few possibilities. This leads me to believe that either each solve will be different in pinpointing the location, or each solve will fall under one of those categories (exact spot, or close to exact spot with few possibilities). For Boston, I think the spot it found through the latter method - you are led to a spot with few possibilities within a small area. I wanted it to be mothers rest, but I couldn't make it fit or narrow it down to a sufficiently small location (other than under the lamp next to the wall of the bridge). With this, you are kind of in the same situation, except not only is the land available A LOT smaller, but the bottom left corner of the image is a match to where you would be when you "face the water." A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Lit by lamplight Similar to the steps/stairs play off each other in this verse, I think the duplication of lights - tower of lights (plural) and the lamplight (singular) calls out attention. RIGHT at the box is both of these. See the one-light lamp right next to the box like the one in the bottom right of the picture (same as those in 2C)?

how about counting stones again? On the big circular section of the 2C count 18, then count 12 on the smaller circular section.  Perhaps those two stones connect a line to a spot over grass. I'll have to take a closer look later tonight to see if this has any chance of working.

It feels like I counted every stone in the city... don't you remember when I was on that kick? Don't waste your time. There haven't been any solves where something did not make complete "analogical" sense (the analogies in the verse lines were pretty straightforward). Nothing in this verse means "count rocks."

All the letters are here to see There is an 'S' on the gate across the street.  Now where can we find an 'E' and then another 'E'?

All the letters are here 2C?

I haven't abandoned the "2C" version completely.  We're making a leap taking "to see" to "2 C".  I'm not finding anything satisfying to the absolute literal "to SEE" unless it's Charl es gat e , but then that's a much greater stretch. 2 C is two leaps combined.  Let's leave the word "to" alone and only change "see" to "C".  Then it's like Chicago's M and B. All the letters are here to C.  CITGO? I noticed if it weren't for some intervening greenery that you can stand right around the small box and the globe light and see the letters of the CITGO sign.  Further down closer to the green light post we have a building (looks like an old building) blocking except for the letters "-GO" and part of the red triangle. Perhaps we shouldn't need to modify the word at all; leaving it as "see" might fit perfectly with the nickname "see it go". I'm less enthusiastic about the nook between the two circles given this development.

What if "stairs" = "stares"? People driving over Bowker wont be focused on you digging.  People exiting the SS gate to the sidewalk may stare in the direction of the Citgo sign for a moment and see your back as you dig...

I believe "In truth be free" is an instruction to align something. Truth has a definition for being accurate.  It also has a usage in balancing or straightening a wheel.  Given we have some circular items here, maybe this is a possible take. The other side of this is "in untruth be imprisoned".  Does this bring the barred gate across the street into play?

erexere wrote:: I believe "In truth be free" is an instruction to align something. How about aligning this: I honestly believe that that is simply a city confirmer.

Truth and light seem to relate to eachother in theseb lines.  Perhaps it serves to say the side of the box which is directly lit as opposed to the opposite side where some shadow will be cast. I'm liking the spot between box and lamp.

Something tbat continues to nudge at me is the fact of Thucy and Xenophon both primarily being historians.  We might consider his "direction" to be history itself as he directs our attention to the story of past events.  The main vigilance or burden of focus for historians is largely sorting through sources from what may be true or false.. hopefully true, but then we have to trust their sources. Perhaps the reason for this isn't only serving to reference the BPL.  Wherever the casque is exactly to be found, perhaps the historic accounting of Paul Revere is the goal.

If the Somerset building represents the warship, then the object  to best represent the full moon should be one of those big white globes in the park facing the Somerset.  I think it makes sense for "all the letters are here to see [it go]" to mean seeing all the letters oof the CITGO sign.  "Feel at home" makes sense along with Fenway Parks "see it go" nickname for CITGO if the same spot offers a T-ball setup, in which case I'm looking at standing on top of the box and having the sam kind of feel as one would when hitting a homerun from homeplate in Fenway and seeing the CITGO sign. I really like the Landlord's Tale as the historical focus since its partly true but also contains well known inaccuracies.  The rowboat was actually eastward of the warship and the moon rising in the east (southeast enough that Revere saw the moon over the bay but the Somerset saw the moon rise over the city of Boston, this from a 1982 calculation of events so its not a matter to base our conclusions on here with this casque, although it was well known that the rowboat was between the ship and rising moon for all pr actical purposes. I think the truth be free line does imply some knowledge of the inaccuracies and allows Preiss to point out his playfullness or freedom with the facts as this is merely a mock scenario of Revere's events and working best he can with what's provided.  A warship (building).  The Moon (a globe lamp).  A mast looking like a prison bar (the green tower light).  In his direction would seem to apply first to either Thucy or Xenophon, but if they are essentially in place of a "historian", that wouod apply to Longfellow, or the subject of his poem, Paul Revere.  The wording of the Thucy/Xenophon lines really seems to indicate that absolute direction isn't a concern because this is a case of things relative to a situation.  I don't want this to come off sounding overly complicated.  I just think theres a couple ways to look at the problem but only one way works. Id like to try starting at the far corner where the overpass meets Commonwealth and E. Charlesgate.  Hop the short fence. Standing in the grassy corner walk five steps (15 feet) roughly south to a spot where the first globe lamp and green tower align.  That's just about to the cement base with the metal walled box.  Dig? Okay, more reconsiderations.  Thucydides is a historian of an earlier age than Xenophon.  If Leif (a representation of an older history) is north of Revere (history not as old) then take five steps in the area of his direction (with respect to the Somerset, Revere rowed south to cross the bay.

Could bleachers be considered steps?  Are bleachers typically located behind the home plate?

Sure... bleachers could be steps. they are typically in the outfield, however.

The park yard baseball diamonds have bleachers behind the fencing along bith sides of the homeplate.  Team seating? I'm trying to determine if pretending you're hitting a ball to the CITGO sign while standing on the metal box and imagining your back to the stairs might be bleachers and his direction being the direction of running to first base.  That would be like moving in a 45 degree to the northwest...not a lot of room for that idea to play out though..

erexere wrote:: I'm trying to determine if pretending you're hitting a ball to the CITGO sign while standing on the metal box and imagining your back to the stairs might be bleachers and his direction being the direction of running to first base.  That would be like moving in a 45 degree to the northwest... Yeah... I haven't seen a whole lot of imagination or fantasy play used in the solved I/Vs.

That's true.  I'm not too enthusiastic about it.  I do however want to look for reasonable justification.  If all other pieces look to fit then such play might be a worthy approach.  The cuff of the arm looks like a foot and leg leading of a baseball plate...I'm convinced.

erexere wrote:: I do however want to look for reasonable justification... erexere wrote:: The cuff of the arm looks like a foot and leg leading of a baseball plate...I'm convinced. Then I'm sure you will find it. ... And the fairy looks like Hatch. That doesn't mean the casque is there, or that it has anything to do with how we interpret the verse. Follow the verse, not the pictures. It's hard, I know.

Maybe "take five" refers to taking a break or a rest.  The crack in the top of the circle actually reminds me of a quarter rest squiggle shape in music notation.

four21, you're "his direction" breakdown is really growing on me.  I'm finally convinced of the idea of "-gate" leading to Charles' gate or "Charlesgate". Let's take another look at the first two lines, If Thucydides is North of Xenophon The word north doesn't make automatic sense.  We simply have to look BACK and say Thucydides comes before Xenophon.  If we recognize their historical placement on the timeline, then north becomes in a sense a point of reference or origin.  The IF-statement is then true with knowing Thucydides preceded Xenophon.  I think we have the gist of the word BACK for a pointer to Back St. from BPL if we play with the idea of history or precedence and origination.

erexere wrote:: four21, you're "his direction" breakdown is really growing on me.  I'm finally convinced of the idea of "-gate" leading to Charles' gate or "Charlesgate". Let's take another look at the first two lines, If Thucydides is North of Xenophon The word north doesn't make automatic sense.  We simply have to look BACK and say Thucydides comes before Xenophon.  If we recognize their historical placement on the timeline, then north becomes in a sense a point of reference or origin.  The IF-statement is then true with knowing Thucydides preceded Xenophon.  I think we have the gist of the word BACK for a pointer to Back St. from BPL if we play with the idea of history or precedence and origination. In Boston, is Thucydides north of Xenophon on the building?

yes

Yes.  I think there's somethi ng subtle about starting that lne with IF.  IF is the beginning of a condition followed by a rule.  I think this could be an indication of a rule for some supportive reason.  I thought the image look d vaguely like a baseball catcher holding a glowing box instead of a catchers mitt.  I wondered if there were any "five step" rules in baseball.  The rule of Obstruction looked like a possibility.  I then wondered how it would apply to the 2C setting.  Likely I'm looking too abstractly or too deep.  I'm not a baseball nerd..but its fun to consider.  Boston has some rich baseball history.

Are you sure Thucydides is north of Xenophon on the BPL? I seem to remember that was not true.

forest_blight wrote:: Are you sure Thucydides is north of Xenophon on the BPL? I seem to remember that was not true. i was always interested in the nearby "virgil" (...and a virgil at mexico...). there's a "newton" right at the seat of the statue below too. I am not convinced that the interpretation of these lines is as straight forward as, "Where M and B are set in stone," because of the injection of a directional relationship between the two objects (T is North of X). The direction seems to throw us off as T is actually Northwest of X. For me, the thought of these lines representing BPL comes from additional evidence that 1) T is North (above) of X, even is is also to the left (West); 2) the nearby proximity of Virgil and Newton ; 3) the order in which these lines appear in their respective verses is very similar; 4) the structure of these lines and use of capitalization is very similar; and 5) the interpretation of, If T is North of X , as reference to BPL is less ambiguous than, " And to Congress, R is known , referring to the Roosevelt University being on Congress Parkway nearby. On top of this, we know that BP probably made it tricky to decide which verse to use with which image. The inclusion of Pindar in V4 not only helps confuse our efforts, but also narrows down the possibilities of usable verses. I would say that is a good type of clue if you are creating a puzzle that you don't want to be easy, but that you also want to be solved. Interestingly, T and X also appear on a stone at the Greek Cultural Gardens , but on that stone, X is North of T. Not only that, but BP said that some of the locations would be quickly found, while others may never be found (right?). There are a few verses and images we still think are tricky, but of them all, there are a few that we think are/were relatively simple to connect (now that we have Google), and Boston is one of those. So it's easy to believe that finding Chicago first, which with using Google would have been relatively easy, would be followed by the also relatively easy Boston in discovery. It might not be coincidence that the verses could be connected through Pindar , X and T as the connection would be a form of leading and confusing.

There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. Is Boston north of New York? Yes it is.

fox wrote:: There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. Is Boston north of New York? Yes it is. Indeed. And, what's fun is that you don't need the literary connection to solve the clue.

A green tower of lights Tower: a person or thing which tows.  How about the Green Line Trolley?  It hauls commuters.  I read that the line is locally referred to as the "T".  Maybe this ties into the Thucydides line. "..of lights" could mean "of electricity", which is what a trolley would use as a power source.  Perhaps we're suppose to catch the Trolley at the stop in front of the Trinity church directly north of the BPL.

erexere wrote:: A green tower of lights Tower: a person or thing which tows.  How about the Green Line Trolley?  It hauls commuters.  I read that the line is locally referred to as the "T".  Maybe this ties into the Thucydides line. "..of lights" could mean "of electricity", which is what a trolley would use as a power source.  Perhaps we're suppose to catch the Trolley at the stop in front of the Trinity church directly north of the BPL. Trolley... hmmn... interesting. I've just been looking for a Hulk connection.

I'm very curious about the fact that Roberto Clemente is the name of an actual coliseum .  (Those who pass the coliseum) Those who pass might refer to those who are dead, passed away.  Clemente's monument stands in the Fenway of the Emerald Necklace.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Trolley... hmmn... interesting. I've just been looking for a Hulk connection. Hulk...is that meant to relate back to the Longfellow poem which describes the Somerset warship as a hulk?  Or is it tondo with the Colosseum in Rome as it relates to the Colossus, the giant statue?

With respect to baseball, a bat is used to hit the baseball.  The origin of the word 'bat' refers to it as a staff or cudgel and to beat or strike.  I continue to wonder if there's a level of music theory at work here, since in music notation there is also a "staff". Another random notion, "one if by land, two if by sea", -> "2 [IF] x C", hmm... 2xC is like saying "two-hundred". The line "in truth be free," might also be read "in alignment, no money", so how about finding a spot near the 2Cs where you find something that obstructs view of the intertwined double-S on the Somerset gate? The Ss are on bars which might be interpreted as two $$, or money symbols.  This might bring the small pump house back into play.  Perhaps moving to a spot just to the point where your back is to stairs, facing water and the two $$ just become obscured by the corner of the building.  That place might even be exactly 5 steps away from some significant spot or setting where there's a visual match to the image.

Five steps in an area seems like its designed to meet an important visual condition either preceeding or after the five steps are taken, if actual foot paces are to be explored.  The direction of these steps don't seem to be indicated whatsoever.

take five streets (steps) down back street from BPL and it turns into charlesgate (his direction).

erexere wrote:: Five steps in an area seems like its designed to meet an important visual condition either preceeding or after the five steps are taken, if actual foot paces are to be explored.  The direction of these steps don't seem to be indicated whatsoever. The five steps line sounds like the digging directions to this verse like, "giant step, in the center of four, beneath the tenth stone" in the other verses.

I'm willing to consider that the locations are limited with respect to precision. I think he must have eyeballed some relative symmetry in surroundings or counted paces or used whatever means made the most immediate sense for each specific location.  The first two discoveries resulted in a lack of precision.  Its all relative to an extent depending on factors like Preiss' height or stride and whatever else could throw tuings off...earthquakes, tsunamis, hooligans, quicksand...etc.

I dont know how you can say that, the locations for Chicago and Cleveland were extremely specific. down to basically a 2-3 foot square but a 3 foot by 3 foot square 3 feet deep requires you to move at the minimum 9 cubic feet of dirt. but you actually have to move more than that because the sides of a hole need to slope down usually at approximately 35 - 45 degrees depending on the looseness of the soil. which means to dig out a 3 foot square hole at the surface the hole needs to be 16 square feet in hard soil and in sand (ie Golden Gate Park) 25 square feet, Just to make a 3 foot square hole at the depth of 3 feet. Frost heave, in an area that freezes can move the casque laterally as well as up or down, as well as crushing it. but in examining the found casques, it is obvious they were placed in a specific location.

True, I am only saying it's a matter of eyeballing a location and using the closest markers to do so.  I should've made my point clearer that I no longer think sun calculations or strict compass usage are required.  The Chicago finders did say they had a hard time.  It only takes being off an inch and you'd never know how close you were.  Like you say, moving a 3'x3' square of dirt is probably the best approach after all this time.  Oh, and one more thing, I don't think counting paces perfectly will make any difference.  You'll know you're in the right spot when you're reading the verse correctly.  You'll find those near-markers and see the right spot the simplest way.  It's a matter of widening the dig hole enough to account for any meddling factors.

In truth be free, Has me thinking of a newspaper box.  Here in Eugene there are several news boxes lit by lamplight with free press, local community news, student papers, etc.

In truth be free, has been on mind more lately.  I think it might be a way of saying "In a space not enclosed".  That's just a tidbit, hope it helps.

I believe there are four inspirations at work here, compounding Image 11 with this verse: Greek, Celtic, The Landlord's Tale and The Wizard of Oz. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Boston Public Library, intended to catch the eye of someone reading the names of historical figures upon it's walls, Thucydides and Xenophon included.  Both known to be Greek historians.  The "area of his direction" is history itself which in terms of direction is "looking back" at past events.  Some blocks north of BPL is Back street, follow that five large blocks west and it puts you in the vicinity of E. Charlesgate.  A curved line on the upper-right of the oculus in image 11 shows a true fit with that curve of the Bowker Overpass ramp.  Continue south to see other indications that lead you to a spot just past Commonwealth and to a park space at the foot of the Somerset (an old Hotel, sharing the same name as the great British man-o-war described in the Landlord's Tale, the poem of Paul Revere's Midnight Ride by Longfellow. A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs These lines seem to describe the area next to the overpass including some directions for locating the casque.  Which water to face and which stairs is still uncertain. Feel at home These three words have caused me to cover a range of possibilities.  I just came up with the idea that this is a "There's no place like home, there's no place like home, ..." Dorothy of the Wizard of Oz idea here. I've been "feeling at home" so much that I considered looking at this Dorothy and her silver shoes by W.W. Denslow, illustrator of the original Wizard of Oz book.  Doesn't it have a similar feel to the woman in image 11, wearing a dress, standing in the center, large blue circle behind her?  I ask myself how I might use this image association as a clue and so far one idea is sticking with me: a cyclone.  The short black "cyclone" fence that surrounds my particular area of interest near the overpass. Also consider that this line instructs us to gather the sense of being at home plate where one would -if they could- hit a "Homer" (score 1 more point for a Greek reference).  See hidden in the image, in the area of the woman's right wrist of what looks like a home plate and a single leg leading off.  At a spot just opposite the front gates of the Somerset there's a cement light post with a white globe on top.  Just to the north of that is (was) a steel box (purpose unknown) that you could easily stand upon if you first step over the short, waist high, black cyclone fence.  Awhile back I ventured a theory about things related to "tea", because this is Boston and "tea" could be a homonym for "T-ball" a children's variant on Baseball.  This globe light on a post much resembles such a T-ball configuration. All the letters Are here to see These two lines also work with the above image.  In Fenway Park, when a home run is hit, it is celebrated with the expression "See It Go!", since the large iconic CITGO sign sits just beyond the left side of the outfield.  "C"-IT-GO.  I believe this is a clue that we must be able to stand in a spot where we can see ALL the letters to this sign in the distance.  It turns out, this is possible from this particular spot.  Consider that this is now a perfect scenario for pretending to hit a home run, "See It Go!" sign included. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour These words help reference the Paul Revere poem and correspond nicely to reference the Somerset. (See poem, The Landlord's Tale) Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. And we do have a lamp in the above image to consider.  "In truth, be free" may aim at the implication that there is a "closed" area, an enclosure whereby opening or disclosure (truth), one would be free. The nearest actual stairs to this spot standing upon the box which is no longer there are those just south in a circular mini-amphitheater.  The nearest water is obvious.  I would consider standing with my back to those stairs and facing the water at a point along a line centered on that spot on the box with a view of the CITGO sign.  Here's a map overhead I've constructed but I'm still not seeing a good fit.  The brown triangle is part of the cyclone fence enclosed area which allows for line of sight on the CITGO sign.  The pink diamond is the main gate to the Somerset.  The green diamond is the tall green post.  The yellow diamond is the nearest stairs.  The blue line is the waters edge.

All the letters Are here to see These two lines also work with the above image.  In Fenway Park, when a home run is hit, it is celebrated with the expression "See It Go!", since the large iconic CITGO sign sits just beyond the left side of the outfield.  "C"-IT-GO.  I believe this is a clue that we must be able to stand in a spot where we can see ALL the letters to this sign in the distance.  It turns out, this is possible from this particular spot.  Consider that this is now a perfect scenario for pretending to hit a home run, "See It Go!" sign included. snip > This is a huge example of oh I see something that is cool so it must be part of the solution. So I will come up with a convoluted theory that in reality serves to only take us farther from the casque... This seriously makes absolutely no sense with these two lines. Especially when right accross the street at Mothers rest park, you can stand at the bottom of a staircase and look accross the water at a garden well labeld with section A, Section B, Section C....

I don't need to defend my theory.  Its easy to see there is no right or wrong approach, certainly not enough proof of Preiss' prcess to go around smearing or criticizing peoples ideas.  Malted, if you have any actual errors or reasonable considerations to point out than please share. If it helps you to understand I'll spell out my approach once more:  I'm making the assumption that Preiss was capable in execution of a thematic creation.  If you wish to adhere to your own rigid  method based solely on gleanings from Chicago and Cleveland, then we understand your resistance to any progressive approaches.  I think its short sighted to be so rigid especially to support the idea that Preiss would consider creating a challenge devoid of theme, that is to say he chose a start, middle, and ending to his process and only described random features in his surroundings.  If I am able to reflect on a variety of possible connotations then I think its more a testament of the rich location choices.  I cant see how you can look at the picture or verse and not see any relationship between the ideas.  I see baseball connection, therefore its reasonable to ask how something baseball related might be included in a method applying to locating a specific spot.  That is a HUGE example of straightforwardness.  Everyone here might do better to look for the underpinnings involved in each pairing. Come on man, HOMER?  That's both baseball and Greek!  That's totally cool even if Preiss didn't intend it...but I expect he did.

A bit late to answer this, sorry, but: I live in Boston. I've stood at the front of the Public Library holding a compass and I can tell you that Thucidydes' name is not north of Xenophon's. I think it's the reverse, actually.

jsp wrote:: A bit late to answer this, sorry, but: I live in Boston. I've stood at the front of the Public Library holding a compass and I can tell you that Thucidydes' name is not north of Xenophon's. I think it's the reverse, actually. Wow that confuses things a bit. I think we need visual confirmation.

i need a refresher on which side the T and X names are on zooming in you can see names,but not clearly dartmouth street entrance hxxp://goo.gl/maps/7qX9d Boylston st entrance hxxp://goo.gl/maps/S7J4x blagden st hxxp://goo.gl/maps/HD5fV and i dont remember when this was added,were the names on this side too,and gone now hxxp://goo.gl/maps/sqYUt hxxp://goo.gl/maps/tYanV

cw0909, I've seen the names Thucydides and Xenophon on other notable libraries around the country.  They aren't duplicated on other walls and they just occur once.  I see no reason to believe they were on any other wall in the Boston location. Maybe the clearest way to look at the lines is that Thucydides and Xenophon are on the north side of BPL, and the intention being that the word "If" represents what is north. If is a conjunction and it is how Preiss is fooling us with his riddle.  CON-JUNCTION.  "Con" means to trick or cheat.  "Junction" is where roads meet.  With reference to the starting location of the two Greek historians, where does "five steps" take us in terms of counting of road junctions that allow north access? We could consider walking either east or west along Boylston street.  Starting with the first north junction at Dartmouth we might continue east til we arrive at the fifth junction north which is Charles street or we might go west starting with Exeter street's north junction and arriving at the fifth junction of Massachusetts avenue. It is then up to us to determine what clue gets us one step closer to the casque from either the intersection of Charles St. or Massachusetts Ave.  The appropriate choice for the possessive pronoun "his" is Charles.  The next line "In the area of his direction" after coming to the "take five steps" conclusion might then be "Charles' area", which could lead to the area named Charlesgate Park where we would next look for a "green tower of lights". Skipping ahead for a moment to consider verse 3 lines 15-16, my absolute favorite place of interest is the front gates of the Hotel Somerset.  Here's why:  the clue "18th day, 12th hour" is our instruction to look at the historically relevant "Tales of a Wayside Inn," by Longfellow.  This includes the somewhat fictionalized account of "Paul Revere's Ride," Lines 2-3 Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five; I'm additionally in favor of the Hotel Somerset location, because this poem speaks of the warship named Somerset.  For fun I wonder if we're suppose to catch the playful idea of the word in Paul Revere's name, "revere", which suggests a few possibilities, one of which being the synonym "worship", which is in turn a homonym for "warship", Lines 18-19 Where swinging wide at her moorings lay The Somerset, British man-of-war; So let's recap, we've used the names on BPL to locate the street Boyslton and then counted five junctions to reveal Charles St., we then use that to conclude the name of a park area. It might be possible to actually take a specific path to this location from BPL:  Boylston east, left on Charles St., continue left on Beacon St. and arriving at the northeast corner of Charlesgate Park bound by W. and E. Charlesgate, Beacon and Newbury.  In this area of Charles', Charlesgate Park, in front of Revere's "warship", Somerset, there's one green light post in particular and I think the remaining visually appealing clues. We're now just up to line 6 of verse 3, "In the middle section," could be anything "waist high"...anyone have ideas on how to continue this interpretation?

cw0909 wrote:: i need a refresher on which side the T and X names are on zooming in you can see names,but not clearly dartmouth street entrance hxxp://goo.gl/maps/7qX9d Boylston st entrance hxxp://goo.gl/maps/S7J4x blagden st hxxp://goo.gl/maps/HD5fV and i dont remember when this was added,were the names on this side too,and gone now hxxp://goo.gl/maps/sqYUt hxxp://goo.gl/maps/tYanV The names Thucidydes and Xenophon are carved into the wall above the Dartmouth Street entrance. That entrance faces sort of east. I can try to give some sort of visual confirmation that T is south of X the next time I'm there.

You can verify that just using Google Street View and matching up the images.  Thucydides is actually south of Xenophon on the facade. My interpretation is that this doesn't change anything.  If you start from scratch and draw a compass in front of the BPL, where T could be considered "north" of X -- then the old south church is, indeed, "south".  Which, if you go five streets in *that* direction (fake "south"), then it puts you on the path to the 2 C's.

If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction I'm still trying to quit posting.  It's a tough habit to break. I say Thucydides = historical time frame X, then Xenophon = historical time frame Y because it follows X given that Xenophon's recording of history followed that of Thucydides. I believe there is little to do with a "trail" from BPL around the park and then to the casque site.  I think this is largely a process of find the right site and then read the verse.  In the location in front of the gates of Somerset we find ourselves standing at the base of the stairs of the smaller circular space.  Realize the two historical frames of reference to be found, X = his direction, Leiv Eriksson, 500 years before Columbus, c. 999 Y = 18th day, 12th hour, Paul Revere, 1775 X is north of Y, Leiv Eriksson is north of the Somerset.

Sad day for those who pass the coliseum...

Some mostly random thoughts, First line:  If Thucydides is If...a prison, Château d'If, the setting of The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexander Dumas. Thucydides...a war historian, name appears on BPL, a historian of ancient Greece is...Isaz is the reconstructed Proto-Germanic name of the i-rune ᛁ, meaning "ice". In the Younger Futhark, it is called Iss in Icelandic and isa in Old Norse. As rune of the Anglo-Saxon futhorc, it is called is.  Ice, slang for "to kill or murder".  The cooler, slang for a jail cell.  Leif Ericcson, a nearby statue, is from Iceland. A home run...idiom for saying somethin is successful. Homer...short for "a home run", also the name of ancient Greek writer of the Illiad and the Odyssey. Edmund Dantes, Count of Monte Cristo character succeeds at breaking out of "If" prison. John Boyle O'Reilly, a nearby statue, succeeds at breaking out of "Freemantle" prison. In truth be free, captures the essence of Edmund Dantes, being wrongfully imprisoned, or anyone for that matter. The actual events not reported in Longfellow's poetic account of Paul Revere's midnight activities include his capture by the British in Lincoln, Mass. where Major Edmund Mitchell questions Revere and if he doesn't tell him the true answers, he'll blow his brains out. I'm not seeing anything fully forming as a good reason to mix all of these seemingly random elements.  I may as well try to make a three men in a bar joke...Paul Revere, Leif Ericcson, and John Boyle O'Reilly are sitting at a bar...what song are they singing as they knock back a few beers?  Who pays for the next round?

Any mention of the lettered paths in The Fens? Could be our letters to see.

Deuce, yes, there has been some conjecture on those alphabet ordered garden paths in the fens linked with the Mothers Rest site across the way.  No concrete purpose has been brought to light of using that site as a point of reference.  At best it suggests this is either a general area near the casque site or it's contains a specific resource for locating the exact spot of the casque. I've spent some time researching some facts on John Boyle O'Reilly's book Moondyne and Thucydides' role related to Athens.  At first I confused Moondyne Joe with a fictional character based on John himself, but today I learned he was a real person, however he was fictionalized in the book, based on a bushranger John learned about while in exhile at Freemantle prison. My idea about the first word 'If' still nags me as a clue about Edmond Dante's exile to the Chateau d'If.  It's a huge guess, but not without reason, educated by the relationship Thucydides had with Athens.  Thucydides was exiled from Athens for 20 years.  He was tried for his role in the loss of Amphipolis.  That name alone gives me cause to wonder, since the word Amphi-theater is very similar.  "polis" means city. "amphi" means "on two sides".  "amphitheater" means "spectators all around a stage".  Most circular or semicircular areas where one can stand in the center are called "amphitheater" as an architectural reference.  I find those circular areas in front of the Somerset to meet the criteria for being amphitheaters.  Back to Thucydides, his place of exile was the Thracian land to the north of Athens where he held a large estate and gold mines.  "Xenophon of Athens" is a perfect fit for referencing Thucydides in exile to the north.  The lines of verse may as well read as follows:  If Thucydides is north of Xenophon in Athens, then Thucydides was in exile in Thrace.

erexere wrote:: Deuce, yes, there has been some conjecture on those alphabet ordered garden paths in the fens linked with the Mothers Rest site across the way.  No concrete purpose has been brought to light of using that site as a point of reference.  At best it suggests this is either a general area near the casque site or it's contains a specific resource for locating the exact spot of the casque. Duece, Most likely It's a site confirmer. when you are at the site of the casque, all the letters are here to see. So to really be considered as possible casque location somehow you need to be able to see "All the letters." What that means is up for grabs.  But the pathnames with clearly readable signs from the possible casqe location at Mothers Rest make the location very probable.

TzalosRex wrote:: Hello again, Everyone.  I had a thought about the "castle" on the box.  Everyone seems to be trying to find the "castle", but what if this isn't one building, but several buildings that, when viewed from the casque site, line up like the picture on the box?  Even if true, that's not really helpful, I know.  About the verse, Googling "In truth, be free", I got a hit for John 8:32 (New Testament)... "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."  A paraphrasing?  Could the site be near a church?  I wasn't into the copley thing, but trinity does have a carving of Saint John (and Luke, et Al.) outside.  One more crazy thought, "18th day, twelfth hour"..Who was Rever going to meet?  Sam Adams and John Hancock .  Two John references?  Hancock Tower?  I'm going to just keep throwing my weird ideas at you all, for the record. P.S. My copy of the book came today.  Five dollars US on Ebay!  Yay!  Last time I held this book in my hand I was 10.  Good Night, Good Day, All. Hi everyone, I just wanted to chime in and say that this post from 2011 is probably the most spot on. I'm currently working on a location that matches everything in this post, more or less. The castle does line up from a fairly specific location (and ONLY that location), and the biblical quote has been physically located nearby, as well as a few other potential visual matches. All of the matches are close to the level of that seen in the other paintings, these are not "if you rotate it and squint it looks a lot like this path" type stuff. There is an incredibly, incredibly strong link to Revere. All of the supporting evidence is within 5 minutes from the location, and most physically border it. I also have links to Italy, as well as theories about "feel at home" [trying to verify its age, believe it to be pre 1980] and "all the letters" - which I believe are another image that only work from a specific location. Absolutely nothing seems to work for the first 4 lines, I will admit, but the site hasn't been fully canvassed yet. One issue is that this verse does not appear to lead to as specific a location as Chicago & Cleveland did. Though Cleveland's was far more specific than Chicago's, they both led you to a physical spot. I have theories, but unfortunately that's all they are right now. If I am right about the location, we have a decent shot of digging it up within the next 12 months, as the area is about to undergo major renovation. The bad news is that the window for finding it may be very small, if the dig has to be clandestine, or trial-and-error. Also, it could just not be here Anything is possible.

Xie, that's a pretty good looking connection.  Good of you to acknowledge the gaps. I say the best way to move forward is to have a look at the location in person and gauge how strongly it pulls you in or points you in a direction.  Chicago had a lot of decoration points.  The simple question of where nearby would be a good place to look for dig dirt was obvious to the area, Grant Park pulled you in.  In Cleveland, the final line was highlighting the columns, and once standing at the entrance to the Grecean Gardens it pulls you in as you hold your book up and pick out the centered sketch of wall. IMHO, you could have Boston by the balls if you are using the final line to effect.  The Hancock building is visually interesting, go have a look and tell us where the nearest dirt pulls you.

Xieish wrote:: I'm currently working on a location that matches everything in this post, more or less. Is it in Boston?

It is not technically in Boston, but yes, to someone not from here they would habitually call it Boston. I've been on the ground - the image discoveries were made in person by me, and were of the type mentioned by others - that 'holy f' moment when you see it. I have verified the castle match & also disproved similar structures (like Trinity Church) through physical trial and error. The very specific design of this building is what produces the exact image on Pandora's Box. They also only line up & are 100% visible from a historic park with multiple monuments and sections, fitting the overall clue. The other visual match I have is on the building next door to the towers. The other visual matches are one more building over, and may (may! the style is not entirely uncommon in this area) include the checker pattern, the triangular tiles, and the arch in the bottom right. All of these locations border two locations strongly tied to the midnight ride, one of them literally being part of it, containing a plaque with the words "midnight on April 18-19." this is not flawless, but is a FAR stronger connection than The Somerset. The area with the quote is right there too, this is all on one block, all border the park. I have been on the ground at every reasonably suggested location in Boston. Charlesgate is not it, there are absolutely 0 matching images - I walked the entire Comm Ave Mall from the Public Gardens. the basins that look like the globes are not the right shape. There are actually 4 lights there, not 3, so it doesn't form the pattern of crystal balls in the picture. The Charlesgate building, or anything near by, does not come close to matching the turrets on the box. The S on The Somerset building doesn't match at all. You cannot see the Citgo sign from the proposed location. Etc. I was never a big believer in Trinity Church/Copley,despite the names on the library (too obvious?). Copley was never a good place to dig, it isn't really a park, and is heavily foot trafficked all day. If it was there, it's gone now anyway as th e entire area has been dug up twice. I tried my own theory which was a park shaped similar to the Rose Garden near Mothers Rest. Able to match much of the verse, but no images at all, which I am positive are the keys - you can fit a verse almoste anywhere in any city, but finding Revere stuff in Boston makes this even tougher since its all over. Nothing at Old North Church either - spent a few hours along the west & north ends. I strongly believe I have it narrowed down to 1-2 solid areas, with the potential for it to be nearby, but you lose the turrets, and I'm a believer in them being visible from the dig site. My theories for 'All the letters' are a huge iconic sign that is visible in entirety also only from specific angles in the park. I think that finding the location where you can see both is important, though tree growth may mean we can only get so close. Feel at home, I have a few theories, one of which is a literal home plate for a softball field. Not positive what the turrets look like from there, not that it needs to be directly adjacent. I've got nothing on T&X, green tower (well, I have a theory but it feels weaker than the rest), and think "in truth be free" may have a dual meaning, as there are things related to G Washington & Lincoln on the grounds, both of whom are known for bringing freedom and being honest. On the ground again tomorrow. Handily, it's .7 miles from my place of work Edit: there are no stairs in the park from what I can tell, though only one building that borders it has stairs - the same building I think -may- be the green tower, but I don't know how much of a tower it is. There is another possibility, but I need to go at night, Water is near enough that it doesn't bother me, the colesium is under a mile away & the water is closer than that. The Charles is big enough to be the water. It's just a directional orientation, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are looking at water. Facing it also puts your back to my poorly thought out green tower: the only nearby building with stairs.

Xieish wrote:: ... I have been on the ground at every reasonably suggested location in Boston. Charlesgate is not it, there are absolutely 0 matching images - I walked the entire Comm Ave Mall from the Public Gardens. the basins that look like the globes are not the right shape. There are actually 4 lights there, not 3, so it doesn't form the pattern of crystal balls in the picture. The Charlesgate building, or anything near by, does not come close to matching the turrets on the box. The S on The Somerset building doesn't match at all. You cannot see the Citgo sign from the proposed location. Etc. ... In terms of precise matches, there's little to go on, but I thought I'd point out the similarities and a variety of points of interest concerning the Charlesgate section nearest the Somerset, because there's a big difference between you saying "absolutely 0" and the street view reporting a good number of similarities. A curve of road as might be seen with a regular map, fixed to north orrientation: Look north to see the top portion of the Charlesgate building in the distance: Sections of space between the balusters along Charlesgate look like they were the template for the lower right portion of the illustration: The green light tower: a rectangular shape base with skinnier post extending from the top. There are two S's on the Somerset Gate (the second is in reversed orrientation): there is one S and the hint of a second S (also in reversed orrientation) on the illustration.  There's a grid of what looks like three distinct squares that I'm still curious about. You say the CITGO sign can't be seen from the area, Bing Maps and Google Maps street views suggest otherwise, but there are some tree branches obscurring the view, which might raise the question did those skinny branches grow that much in the last 30 years? There are 5 globe lights in all: one to the south next to the hut (in grass), three in the paved section of depressions, and one just to the north in the fenced area (in grass).  There are three main orbs in the illustration and two bubbles, perhaps the bubbles represent the two globe lights that are floating higher than the three globes set lower in the brick paved section. There's a section of the sidewalk that might fit the line and box shape on the oculus: There's the idea that the oculus is the artist taking a straight layout of sidewalk and other elements and fitting them to the arc perspective.  (I wish I was more skilled with editing tools to show this.) The presumption that ONLY exact matches will get us closer to a casque is an additional obstacle.  A looser perspective that allows the characteristic elements in the art to define the same characteristic elements seen in person might be a better way of discerning what's been disguised by the artist's creative layer.

I suppose a site that looks visually appealing on Google or Bing street view and some photographs could be completely and absolutely incomparible to a first hand account from someone who's spent a good time at the site actively trying to "feel at home". As a exercise I'd like to think of the poem verse as outlining the fewest possible points of interest: 1) Guide us to a specific area in some standard or strangely acceptible way: name, address, description, or even something inferred. 2) Describe one, two or more point references that form a cohesive locating motif. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Starting place + cryptic: Boston Public Library Take five steps In the area of his direction cryptic: 5 blocks travel on Boyleston to the Boyle statue A green tower of lights non-cryptic description, look for just that In the middle section narrowing: Something, an area or an object to have at least three parts Near those Who pass the coliseum crpytic: Near where people would pass an amphitheater (a place of two semi-circles) With metal walls non-cryptic Face the water non-cryptic: turn head towards place of water; cryptic: boldy or adventurously challenge the water =Leif Erikkson Your back to the stairs non-cryptic Feel at home cryptic: implies making a stay or being very comfortable, may relate to the following line of hitting a homer in direction of CITGO, could mean an overhead area acting as a roof (home = having a roof over your head) All the letters Are here to see non-cryptic: actual alphabet letters, or postal letters; cryptic: place where you see well-educated people Eighteenth day Twelfth hour literary reference: The Landlord's Tale by Longfellow Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. wild theory: interrogation, the threat of imprisonment = a wall with a barred gate for example. According to my rotation of the perspective from Google street view while standing in one place, I can see it's possible look in the direction of and see various elements that might conform to this break down of the verse: a green light tower, the CITGO sign, Leif Erikkson statue, the two semi-circles, some stairs, and a wall with bars belonging to the Somerset which was a word appearing in the Longfellow poem. In terms of using the fewest possible elements purely as point reference, I'm most inclined to think the nearest dirt to the spot that accomplishes as many visual connections as possible.

If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction Because Thucydides and Xenophon are names appearing on the outer wall of the Boston Public Library, which may only be a presumption of similarity to how M and B were set in stone in Chicago, the inclination to think of their names as only references to points in space presents an immediate conflict.  Thucydides the name in the stone is not north of Xenophon on the library wall. My attempt to explain why these lines are so puzzling takes into consideration who Thucydides and Xenophon were in relation to one another.  They were both Athenians of Greece and both historians who wrote about the events of the Peloponnesian War.  Thucydides recorded events of the first 20 years while he was in exile and Xenophon's Hellenica held record of the later part of the war of 27 years.  Once I took the time to learn a little about who these two Greek historians were, I'd expect it should be enough and the answer should be obvious.  The only thing that seems to work is that Thucydides was in exile and Xenophon was not.  During those 20 years, Thucydides lived on his property in Thrace, about 230 miles northeast of Athens.  In exile he was north of Xenophon. If an exiled old man is North of a younger man It becomes something to consider that the John Boyle O'Reily statue is precisely 1000 meters from the corner of the Boston Public Library's corner of Exeter and Boylston.  Standard city block lengths in that area of Boston are 200 meters. Take five blocks (1000m) In the area of an exiled man's direction At this point there might be no need to complicate things with establishing a younger man statue somewhere south of the John Boyle O'Reily.  Xenophon only served as a reference to sort out the necessary key concept of exile. I feel like this should've been settled long ago.  We would then have had a clear sense of where to go next in the area.

What do you think about the statues just possibly being an older guy and a newer guy? Say someone from the 1600s and then a guy from the 1800s? Could it possibly just be a reference to 'if the older one is north'? I'm thinking that this line may be simpler than I have been giving it credit for. Who cares who exactly is Thucydides - the poem tells us their location, and in my park there are two statues that are due north/south of each other. The northern most one faces south, the southern one faces north. So either start at one and go a bit south, Or start at the other and go a bit north. I'm crowd-sourcing this one because this is the last line I need to solve before having a tentative dig spot, and it's really really vexxing me. I also don't exactly have a green tower of lights, but I strongly suspect the lighting in the park has changed, and have made outreach to those who may know/have photos. Edit: also I very clearly am too far down the rabbit hole to see my own bias, so I want other's ( not just erexere) opinions Totally with someone from SA's help one of the other verse lines came into strong focus for me. There is no stretch involved in it, and it explains why you need to face the water (in reality, a dig spot should be omni-directional, as we are no longer taking steps. It does not matter in Chicago if you face the park or the road, and in Cleveland it really doesn't matter if you face the wall or out from it). The new verse line is strongly, strongly in line with previous solved verses in that it perfectly encapsulates a bordering street, much like the 'Congress St' clue. With my current hunch, if you follow the instructions it's the only way you can see the letters, as well as the turrets. If you face away you don't see them, even in the right spot. Long story short I'm very close to probing the ground with a rod.

lol... is there a plaque to Kościuszko in the park?

Xieish wrote:: I'm crowd-sourcing this one because this is the last line I need to solve before having a tentative dig spot, and it's really really vexxing me. I also don't exactly have a green tower of lights, but I strongly suspect the lighting in the park has changed, and have made outreach to those who may know/have photos. Edit: also I very clearly am too far down the rabbit hole to see my own bias, so I want other's ( not just erexere) opinions You're not really crowd-sourcing this, you are speaking in vagaries. If you want help, share information. I told you I would share notes, but you just ignored.

I honestly did not see that! My apologies, I was not ignoring you. I am being vague not to be secretive (my entire theory is posted over at SA), but to avoid poisoning people with my own biases, because I'm very excited about the site. The identity of the statues is unimportant, so I'm not sure what you'd like me to provide here - just ask! Yes, it is Cambridge Common.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: lol... is there a plaque to Kościuszko in the park? I don't know. I doubt there would be a statue without one. Doh!  Now I get it.

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erexere wrote:: I don't know. I doubt there would be a statue without one. Doh!  Now I get it. I was just pointing out that the Commons had a plaque dedicated to him. You know, trying to make you crazy with all the connections.

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Unknown: Since the spacing of streets in grid plans varies so widely among cities, or even within cities, it is difficult to generalize about the size of a city block. However, as reference points, the standard square blocks of Portland, Houston, and Sacramento are 260 by 260 feet (79 m × 79 m), 330 by 330 feet (100 m × 100 m), and 410 by 410 feet (120 m × 120 m) respectively (to the street center line). Oblong blocks range considerably in width and length. The standard block in Manhattan is about 264 by 900 feet (80 m × 270 m); and in some U.S. cities standard blocks are as wide as 660 feet (200 m). The blocks in Edmonton, Canada are 560 by 330 feet (170 m × 100 m). The blocks in central Melbourne, Australia, are 660 by 330 feet (200 m × 100 m), formed by splitting the square blocks in an original grid with a narrow street down the middle. Emphatic claims have been made to say Boyle isn't 5 blocks from BPL.  This online measuring stick says it is 5 blocks. The distance of blocks in Boston are variable, but many fit the 200m length.  There's indeed a variety of different standards for a block length, 200m being among them (see Melbourne, Australia): Wikipedia "city block": 5 blocks = 1000m.  Taking Thucydides north of Xenophon to mean "exile", since Thucydides moved to Thrace to avoid execution for his role in the Battle of Amphipolis (BTW, I wonder if it's important that Amphipolis means amphi- "two or double", and -polis "city".  When Athens surrendered to the Spartans 20 years later, Thucydides was allowed to return home but supposedly was attacked and killed on the return.  A decade later, Xenophon's actions and political disagreements with Athens led to his exile and is reported to have died in Thrace.  Exile is at least one of the commonalities to these two men.  Exile is also a theme in the life of John Boyle O'Reilly who was sent from Ireland to a prison colony in Australia from which he escaped to Boston in America. In my picture above, I suggest there's only a short distance travel up onto the overpass and down the off-ramp to Commonwealth and Charlesgate.  In the past solutions with Cleveland and Chicago, there's a working theory that a descriptor can be applied to each "turn" one makes from what is considered the beginning of a path from the furthest point from the casque.  The John Boyle O'Reilly monument is a straight shot from the BPL and at that point where one might consider taking a turn it seems reasonable to head around the bend to the overpass.  The triangle of the Citgo sign can be glimpsed as you start around the bend.  Up on the overpass you might see the Charlesgate Hotel site as the sign to take the offramp since the top of the woman's head matches the curved top of it's facades.  Certainly that feature isn't unique to that building, but it is the firstmost feature that fits this particular journey.  Working with the least random constraints is by far more logical than so many random assorted theories floating around here.  At the bottom of the offramp there are several possibilities.  The next line is the green tower of lights and the illustration has in it's lower right corner the hint of the Charlesgate ballustrades along sections of Commonwealth Ave.  Turning does take you around to the double semi-circle areas including the green light pole and light globes.  I see a complete solve despite the inexactness of visual clues.  The correlation of clues is what's more important because it requires a thoughtful approach.  If we assume Preiss and Palencar made no attempt to be sneaky, then the pursuit of visual exactness is an excellent approach.  In the case of Boston, I think they were sneaky, so we have our work cut out for us.  I see a reveresed "S" pattern in the dress and then a partial "S" being mirroed below that.  When I see the Somerset Hotel's gate with two S's, although they don't match the exact font or layout with one S above and partial S below, the thoughtful approach confirms that an S is an S and a reversed S is a reversed S even if the axis has been changed from vertical to horizontal.

Just another possible comfirmer to this site. Not sure how the wall looked 30 years ago though.

erexere wrote:: Emphatic claims have been made to say Boyle isn't 5 blocks from BPL.  This online measuring stick says it is 5 blocks. ...yeah...although the direction is a problem. Still bet on the 2C though. What makes me despair is people who are allegedly intrerested in this puzzle visiting the place, saying "nah", and heading off again. The problem with this quest is that there have always been far more people willing to say "No, thats wrong" than "OK, let's give it a try".

Why is the direction a problem? I'm having talks with a person about a healthy donation to improve the grounds at the 2C.  Next week, I'll know if that will open the door to unfettered access on the site with a shovel.

erexere wrote:: Why is the direction a problem? I'm having talks with a person about a healthy donation to improve the grounds at the 2C.  Next week, I'll know if that will open the door to unfettered access on the site with a shovel. who will do the digging?

Can't say right now.  Looks like nobody from SA or her since there's less and less interest in the site.  It looks like it could use some improvement, so there's a chance the city will allow a contractor to trim and replant at some point.

erexere wrote:: Why is the direction a problem? The two Cs are slightly south of the BPL.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: ...yeah...although the direction is a problem. Still bet on the 2C though. What makes me despair is people who are allegedly intrerested in this puzzle visiting the place, saying "nah", and heading off again. The problem with this quest is that there have always been far more people willing to say "No, thats wrong" than "OK, let's give it a try". I've visited it and I assure you I'm far more than allegedly interested in the puzzle. But here's the thing: I've been there more than once. I've been to the Fenway Victory Gardens. I headed off again because there are no visual confirmers. There are some things which sort of maybe resemble stuff you might see either at that site or near that site, but nothing like what we saw in Chicago or Cleveland. The only exception I can think of is, as someone pointed out, the wall behind the woman looks kind of like the wall on the Pike, but it's also a very simple design and could easily be a coincidence. This is the problem I have with the site: You'd think there would be something . At least one element that is an exact visual match for something in the painting, something undeniable - not just the wall design but a clear representation of a statue, a sculpture, a plaque, a fountain, something . There isn't. I realize that all of it is kind of encouraging when you're looking at it on Google Maps but I assure you that when you're actually standing there, it becomes much clearer that the site is just not a good fit. In literally every other image, there's at least one easily recognizable visual indication of either the city or something in it - a map, a sculpture, a landmark, a statue. In this one there's nothing that we've found. This is why I haven't dug: I just don't believe the casque is there. Believe me when I say that I want more than anything for a casque to be in Boston, but I don't think it's at that site.

Jsp, I totally understand.  I can't contend with your in-person observations. Or maybe I can.  The site I've perso ally worked with in Corbett didn't have those exact details I had hoped for.  After visiting three times I still didn't understand the orientation problem.  I got way too focused on my compass and then shoehorned a spot that seemed like it fit.  The rock on which Ponce is standing is actually highly accurate to some parts but then other parts flip the perspective (exactly what happens when you make a carbon trace with the carbon flipped to the bottom of your pages.  Something tells me he did some good work to make some matches and he did some sloppy work on purpose and then used the artist to dial it up a notch. Don't underestimate the essentials that make a spot worth consideration.  Exact matching is hard to guarantee given the additional handling in the several step art process.  Use the verse to overcome the flaws in the image.

Unknown: In literally every other image, there's at least one easily recognizable visual indication of either the city or something in it - a map, a sculpture, a landmark, a statue. This didn't fit as a recognizable visual indicator? It looks very close to me.

Honestly...no, it didn't. Not for me. It shares a shape, sort of, but in the image they're half-circles and in real life one is a full circle and the other is three-quarters, and in the painting, the lower one has a pattern that isn't on the real one. There's certainly something of a resemblance, but it's only a resemblance. I'm talking about something like the recognizable outline of the terminal building, or the water tower, or the fountain in the grecian cultural gardens. Or the Chrysler building gargoyle, etc etc. There just isn't anything like that in image 11, not for Boston. Suppose it's 1983. A guy is standing in Copley Square with his copy of The Secret. He's looking at the BPL and he's noticing that the names Thucydides and Xenophon are indeed on the facade of it. How did he get there? What in the image brought him to that location where he'd see it?

jsp wrote:: Honestly...no, it didn't. Not for me. It shares a shape, sort of, but in the image they're half-circles and in real life one is a full circle and the other is three-quarters, and in the painting, the lower one has a pattern that isn't on the real one. There's certainly something of a resemblance, but it's only a resemblance. I'm talking about something like the recognizable outline of the terminal building, or the water tower, or the fountain in the grecian cultural gardens. Or the Chrysler building gargoyle, etc etc. There just isn't anything like that in image 11, not for Boston. Suppose it's 1983. A guy is standing in Copley Square with his copy of The Secret. He's looking at the BPL and he's noticing that the names Thucydides and Xenophon are indeed on the facade of it. How did he get there? What in the image brought him to that location where he'd see it? Oh I see, a city confirmation visual.  You are correct on that.

I agree with everything that JSP has said. Myself and my roommate pored over the entire Comm Ave mall all the way to Charlesgate and back out to Hines. I'm sorry, but if you don't live here, if you haven't spent time there, it's pretty insulting to continully claim something that multiple people have confirmed isn't true. The "2C" really aren't, one is an almost complete circle, and neither is an exact match to the globe/arch in the painting. The Citgo sign can't really be seen from where you want it to be seen. There are no "all the letters" and there are approximately hundreds of green lamps in the city. I wanted this site to fit. I really did. I spent hours looking at photos from all years I could find, on the ground, on Google Maps, etc. There's nothing that actually resembles the turrets in a meaningful way. The S on the side of The Somerset is not even close to the S on her apron. The lamps you see which look like the 3 globes don't form the same pattern. There are no letters to see. "Feel at home" requires you to buy a condo? The Somerset is a very, very tenuous reference to Revere - it's a part of the poem but not the most famous. Every single thing about the site is a stretch. There are no actual matching elements. It relies on really wacky verse interpretations - if it was that on top of a ton of images, I'd agree with the site a bit more, but when all you have is a bad "C" carved in the ground that isn't a C and Google Maps, there just isn't anything that makes me want to dig. I'd be a lot more willing to "let the verse flow" if your verse interpretation was any good, instead of a series of huge leaps - every. single. step. of your verse interpretation requires a gigantic leap that hasn't been necessary in any other riddle. On top of that, you're arguing that this should supersede the complete and utter lack of imagery matching the site. Based on the completely incorrect shape of 2 stone depressions in the ground. There's a reason a cask hasn't been dug up yet in Boston, and it's not because some of us are only "allegedly" interested. edit: In terms of city confirmers for boston: There's the potential "BOS" on her sleeve (eh), the potential "B" of the globes (eh), the potential skyline in her hair. Something about the bird? Everything else is too small to be a city confirmer, unless after all these years everyone is equally blind.

Xie, not trying to insult you.  I just showed you a pic from street view that shows the Citgo sign.  I discussed it and other factors in a legitimate way without the presumptions that may not support the puzzle.  What you hope to find as an exact match may not be there, but to say two letter S's are not relevant to a spot that also has two S's is outrageous.  There's so much artistic license and guile in this hunt that you should take a pause and not call anything a giant leap until you really have a case.  I don't live in Boston, I am relying on internet imagery, but I'm also using my brain. I'm tickled by the commonality that can be discovered by just reading the first line.  IF, the word 'if', is in fact the name of a prison.  Thucydides was in fact an exile.  The threat of incarceration is a good way to start working this puzzle.  Think about the variety of ways a child might play the game of "go to jail".  Finding a spot like that may be a big leap for all of us.  I feel like things get very interesting with the John Boyle O'Reilly and actually measuring the distance based on a true standard for block length.  There is a gap for me in connecting that to the 2Cs, but they are fairly close.  John Boyle was exiled, imprisoned, and escaped.  Taking a leap might be implied.  Then we have Longfellow.  That could lead anywhere, but the nearest connection might be the simplest explanation, which in his words might be the Somerset.  Longfellow describes it like a prison if I recall, a black hulk with bars.  Ill read it again later just to be sure. Anyways, contend with what I've said however you like.  I'm totaly stoked by this hunt.

You can see the Citgo sign from elsewhere in the park, but it's not where you want to dig at all. You can't even see a hint of it. Sigh. Do as you want, but your brain makes connections that are tenuous at best and then locks them down as ironclad. Over, and over, and over again for years. I've read it. None of them have been right - now, that does not mean you will never be right - but at some point it may be better to acknowledge that it's more likely the other 10 puzzles (or at least SOME of them!) will be solved like the others, as opposed to with leaps of logic and 4-6 layer deep literary references. The letter S is one of the most common letters in the English alphabet. :\ Do you know what's a great way to start working this puzzle? Matching images on the ground that look like things in the painting. I'll tease this out for you - here are all of the things that I consider a fantastical leap of logic in your theory: 1) The theme of incarceration is important -All of the solved ones begin with a very simple verse that get you in the right area. One of them is actually quite a poor clue, referring to something 1.5 blocks away, but is just initials carved into the rock. The other describes the park in a clever way, but directly describes the park. You know it when you get there. Finding a theme by doing encyclopedia reference about the Greek name and applying it as a skewed way to view the rest of the verse doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a huge leap, it's certainly not even close to any other verse interpretation (Roanoake, etc.) 2) Using a "standard block length" to justify the distance. -This is incredibly unlikely. I'm not a huge fan of 5 steps = 5 blocks anyway, especially not 5 blocks West (it's 6, and then 1-2 up) in the first place, but when you need to bust out an archaic definition of block to make it fit, completely ignoring the actual layout of the city (the most important part of these puzzles), you're setting of my logic detector. It's another leap. Maybe not the biggest. 3) The quote refers to Longfellow/Somerset -This is unknown. It may refer to Revere, it may refer to Longfellow, it may refer to someone else (Dawes, or the 3rd rider, or some plaque that will be visible from the dig site). If it does refer to Longfellow, it's absurd to call The Somerset the prevailing reference to him, it's just the most convenient in a city that has hundreds of them. You can't go 20 feet around here without running into something he was involved with. Bridges named after him, his home, he did lots of stuff for Harvard, roads, etc. This just isn't how they work. It's too many leaps upon leaps. No person could be expected to solve these multi layered puzzles that are of Da Vinci code complexity. I want to dig up a cask, and I'm not going to do anything to stop you from digging if you can, but I also think that a very critical & skeptical approach to this hunt is going to yield the best results.

None of my current theories use any connection layering beyond 1 layer.  I think it's a matter of picking the right layer.  Sure I float a lot of ideas around, but there's a reason and purpose for each and when it doesn't reconcile after some good ol' chewing then into the spitoon in the corner it goes. We have an extremely small canon in Cleveland and Chicago to form any certainties.   I'm careful not to deviate from what worked in Cleveland and Chicago.  You and others might be mistaken on how you think Cleveland and Chicago worked.  Only recently I've worked out some very clear reasoning to their first lines of verse and I doubt anyone's embracing even a trial perspective.  Someone called "set in stone" a stretch when I said it can relate contract agreement and the word "grant".  Having a plan to hide the casque in a specific place and considering some aspect of the solution will share a cornerstone link to the first line of the verse is a great way to engineer the process. We don't know for sure yet that is what Preiss did, but we have no proof that he didn't, and I have only two solutions that suggest he did.  I've based the rest of my solutions on that process in hopes that I might be right.  I wouldn't say it's ironclad, but it's conventional.  There's some good idiomatic and conventional leads in these verses.  They are cryptic.  Research can be useful. Let's review, Cleveland, "beneath two countries", like the Centaur in the image demonstrates, we can stand on a wall that borders two countries, the casque was found at the wall of the Greek Garden and so it follows to note the first line may implicate a wall. Chicago, "Where M and B are set in stone", the casque was found in Grant Park and the word "grant", defined in Law, may be a transfer of property by deed, or in other words a conveyance which is "set in stone". It seems more and more likely that Preiss looked for a precise way to relate the first line of verse to each of his hiding spots.  Now I'm looking at Verse 3, and "If Thucydides is" is to follow suit, then there is some subtle intention in these three words beyond just telling us to chance upon some names written on a wall.  It's actually leading us to conclude or ask "what is Thucydides?"  Exiled.  I can only conclude that the casque will be in a place where we could pretend is a place designed to keep someone in or out.  The best thing I can come up with is a fenced in, boxed in, or even encircled area.  There just has to be a prison motif. The Somerset , British man-of-war; A phantom ship, with each mast and spar Across the moon like a prison bar , Excerpt from The Landlord's Tale, Paul Revere's Ride , appeals to my breakdown as the first word of the first line of verse may be considered to be the name of the prison, Château d' If . Street view reveals there is a fenced portion of ground at the 2C's.  I don't think it's impossible to move dirt with a shovel there.  I think it was possible to perch oneself up to a height where the CITGO letters were all in view.  A small step ladder could easily prove or disprove this theory, but there's also the matter of the tree branches that may have grown to the point where they obscure the sign.  Hello, it's been 30 years!  We dont need xray vision, but we do need to reconsider everything possible so that we don't miss small but important details.

This is one of the things where it might make sense to sort of defer to the experience of people who have actually been there, because the place you've drawn your arrow is a muddy riverbank. If the casque was buried there, it was buried in mud. I'm comfortable saying I'm certain that Preiss was smart enough not to bury casques in mud.

erexere wrote:: Chicago, "Where M and B are set in stone", the casque was found in Grant Park and the word "grant", defined in Law, may be a transfer of property by deed, or in other words a conveyance which is "set in stone". Or, as Preiss himself said, it referred to "Mozart" and "Beethoven" inscribed, literally, in large letters, in stone, on a building across from the park.  But clearly, Preiss was being cheeky, and obscuring the true meaning involving "grant" or a "conveyance." Crafty guy. Xie, did you post where you think it's buried?

There's a cement slab and light post on either side of the spot.  I think if the mud was as problematic as you say those things would've sunk or floated away by now, taking the casque with them.  There's got to be a good 8-10 feet from the walkway to the flagstone edged waterway. It's totally cool to reject my interpretation, and thanks to anyone who's got the balls to share their own fully formed theory, sane or demented.  Don't reject a dig location unless you're prepared to poke it with a stick. It's about time people start walking around with a utility probe.  I'm going to buy a couple.  I'll be happy to ship one to someone if they want, otherwise I'll be dual-wielding next time I have a chance to get close to a location.

Look, I think you're doing a lot of good work here and coming up with a lot of good ideas but this is exactly what I'm talking about. I've been there. I've been there more than once. I've stood on the other side of the fence from where you drew the arrow. I'm trying to tell you that if you were actually standing on the spot - which two people, including myself, have done - it would immediately become clear why the casque is not buried there. It may not be clear from looking at it on Google Maps but it is very, very clear if you're standing there and looking at it. It's mud. A huge slab of concrete would not float away. A light post, and its concrete base, would not float away. But the mud in question is not stable, it's not a terrain you could bury something in and still expect it to be there the way you could with dirt. I would happily make a not insignificant wager that Preiss never buried a casque in that spot, but if for some reason he temporarily took leave of his senses and did so, it's long gone.

Unknown: Way back when (September), Egbert said, "The Chicago casque was found by 2 young stockbrokers, who lived in Chicago, and had recognized some of the sites and verse references right away. However, at the time, there was some type of renovation occurring, in which a large marble or concrete object had been placed over the burial site. So, they took a picture of it, and sent it to B.Preiss, who acknowledged that as soon as the renovation was finished, the treasure was theirs. He doesn't recall meeting them, doesn't have a copy of any newspaper article, but does recall that an article was run in one of the major Chicago newspapers at the time." I'm very curious about spot, because the fact that it's been observed as muddy doesn't mean its always been muddy.  If there's any grass at all, then that's a sign that the turf has some stability.  It might get soaked, it might have worms and rodent crap in it, but that isn't enough to rule out a spot.  Preiss buried some casques knowing they might be lost to construction or other factors.  If I recall, he said "covered by a cement slab", maybe this is just a case where the feel of the spot has changed to the degree that it's only natural we have doubts. Something about this spot draws me in.  I'm sorry to bother you with my persistent belief, and I appreciate you're candid feedback. Ah, found it, So Preiss sent them the jewel after the renovations and a photo of where he buried it.  They were able to work off the photo and find the casque after.

erexere wrote:: I'm very curious about spot, because the fact that it's been observed as muddy doesn't mean its always been muddy. LMAO it's literally called "Muddy River" hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muddy_River_(Massachusetts )

Face the water I feel like this is less about looking in water's direction and more about being in a spot where you have to worry about getting wet. Is the bank very steep and would you consider it dangerous?  I don't see a sweeping current.  Is it even more than waste deep?

The bank is definitely on a slope but I wouldn't call it very steep. I don't know how deep the water is.

This forum blocks my work IP from logging in or posting, which is what's kept me from posting my theory. But here goes, because I grow weary of the "maybe face the water means face h2o which means face hydrogen since the are more Hs in water than Os, so maybe face the water means to face the sun where there is lots of hydrogen" types. The cask is near or in the Cambridge Common, a park that borders Harvard Yard, and sits adjacent to Harvard Law School. I currently have 3 strong visual matches in the park to the painting, and a huge section of the verse fits with absolutely no twisting and turning, and one of them fits so well (and in line with the solved puzzles) that I consider it very very strong. Here is the area we're working with: hxxp://goo.gl/maps/eVGBV The first visual clue I matched was the "4" on the woman's sleeve, which I had never considered a visual clue until I saw it. Now, it seems somewhat obvious, as the 4 is visually distinct from everything else in the painting, being made of straight lines and having texture. I observed the "1" and the "2" from the road and immediately knew it was the correct style. I went looking for the 4 and found it easily. It is on a building which borders the park to the East side, known as Hastings House. It's unlabeled on the above link, but I'll be providing a tagged map below. Image: hxxp://i.imgur.com/Wb7aSJk.jpg The second visual clue are visual matches that are key architectural elements in Richardson Romanesque architecture, as anyone familiar with Trinity Church has seen before. They are found on Austin House, the oldest building in the USA built for a law school. It also borders the park to the East, and is adjacent to Hastings House. This building contains 3 separate elements from the painting - 1) The checkerboard pattern viewed on the | | behind the woman, 2) The triangular pattern on the same pieces, 3) The arch seen below the globe on the bottom right. Images: hxxp://i.imgur.com/MWwSvKN.jpg & hxxp://i.imgur.com/jrQvgiF.jpg The final visual clue is the turrets. Yes, those turrets, the ones on the box held by the woman. I believe they, like the Chicago Tower, are hidden in the image of a castle with ramparts. They appear to be "any" two turrets, in a city full of them. However, they actually are quite unique. The shape of the turret doesn't match turreted roofs. They are at different heights and different sizes, something that isn't possible to achieve with two parallel turrets (as seen on The Charlesgate, for example). The perspective is *key* to this picture. The turrets are a perfect match to the turrets as seen on the Harvard Epworth Memorial Church, a building adjacent to the park from the East, and (stop me if you've heard this before) adjacent to Hastings House to the north. The turrets are designed differently than others around the city, and the view on the box can only be perfectly re-created while standing in the Cambridge Common (Example hxxp://i.imgur.com/Zt5RkCp.jpg ). Any other view of the turrets does not work, due to the specific way these are designed. The turret closest to the common is bigger than the other 3, which leads to the perspective seen in the image. Looking at the turrets from any other angle, or from the wrong location in the park yields a completely different image.  (Example of wrong view: hxxp://i.imgur.com/KsMUxhj.jpg ) (ANOTHER wrong view: hxxp://i.imgur.com/jmJuuSm.jpg ) Bordering the park (a bit further, it's actually bordering Dawes Island Park [formally Flagstaff Park]) to the Southeast is the Harvard Yard 1881 gate, which on it contains the quote: "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make ye free" written out in full text. hxxp://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k93345&pageid=icb.page572577 Also bordering the park, directly to the South of the entrance gate, is a traffic island known as Dawes Island. William Dawes is the 2nd rider, often forgotten (thanks mostly to Longfellow's poem) on the midnight ride. He rode directly past/through the Common and down JFK St, passing what is now Harvard Stadium. There is a plaque on Dawes Island that contains the words "on midnight April 18-19" as well as gold hoofprints on the ground showing his actual path. Images of everything: hxxp://www.wmdawes.org/dawesisland.html On the Northeast corner of the park, there is an iconic sign on top of the Sheraton Hotel. It reads "SHERATON COMMANDER" ( hxxp://i.imgur.com/lYRNR5p.jpg ). It too can be seen from Cambridge Common, and there are very specific locations where you can see both the sign and the church turrets. Tree cover has changed in 30 years, so you have to imagine it in autumn, but the letters are huge & iconic in the neighborhood. Finally, I have wondered aloud why you need to "face the water" - digging is directonless. It doesn't matter if you face the water to dig or not, there is no reason to have a facing direction without movement. I do believe exerere is correct, the water involved is not actually water. The street that borders Cambridge Common to the north is called Waterhouse Street. Face the water. Feel at home. Facing Waterhouse St is the only way to see the Sheraton Commander sign as well as the Harvard Epworth church. Any other direction, you won't see both, and certainly not all the letters. Missing pieces: Thucydides and Xenophon. At this point I'm desperately trying to call the two statues in the park this, but I've got nothing concrete. Green tower of lights: I have confirmed that the lighting on the Common is not the same as it was in the 1970s. Directly in the middle on Waterhouse St is the Church of Christ Scientist building, with a big green roof. I personally am not comfortable calling this a "green tower of lights," but it very well might be. It's also very likely that the common has changed quite a bit and any green towers of lights are simply gone. Everything else fits. The entire site is well under a mile from Harvard Stadium, a very clear Colosseum, that has been literally described in literature as having metal walls. There are no big stretches here, and as you can see on the map below, a lot of clues. So there you go, it's in Cambridge Common. Someone come help me find the exact spot & dig it up. https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit? ... QsnEm98vQI

Unknown: very clear Colosseum, that has been literally described in literature as having metal walls. For reference, where is Harvard Stadium referred to as having metal walls?

I like the 1881 Brooks Gate as the source of "In truth, be free." Also, the filigree on the gate resembles some of the viny elements of P11. And I like the 4 (although I favor the theory that the 4 coupled with the immediately adjacent 2 is a reference to latitude 42). But I'm just not seeing the resemblance between the church's turrets and the castle on the box. Also, can you help me understand why the Sheraton Commander is important?

The Turrets are the same shape as the ones on the box, and the same size. They have the same 'mushroom cap' design. They are in the same position & are in proportion, only from the middle section of the park. Ignore the ramparts, it's not a real castle. If you look at similar buildings the turrets never align like that. Either they are the same height, or due to the distance, the taller one shrinks to be the same size. The single larger turret on the Epworth keeps it larger. I've looked at almost every notable (and many not) turrets in the city. none of them look like that. I have no idea why anyone thinks the 42 can't also be there, like there's a rule about it. I agree with you, and it's likely serving a dual purpose, otherwise why make it so visually distinct? The Sheraton Commander sign is, of course, all the letters that are here to see from the same spot the turrets align on the park, if you face Waterhouse St you can see the sign to the left, the turrets to the right. The green roof is dead center between the two, but I'm not calling that anything as of yet,. Edit: The Stadium is called that in a Nov-Dec 1980 issue of Harvard Magazine, in an article titled 'Charlesbank Harvard: Radical Innovation, Architectural Masterwork' - unfortunately I don't have the full text at the moment.

A first-hand perspective on any of the proposed locations would normally trump any theory we cook up.  Even so, I'm looking for anything with consistency and a spot to put a shovel. Taking another look at the Charlesgate site in front of the historic Somerset building, here are four globe lights: A fifth globe light is sitting all alone in this short fenced-off portion of the park, This precise spot interests me for a variety of reasons, The letters of the CITGO sign are viewable from this spot, especially given that at one point a metal box sat on the cement pad and a person standing upon it would have a better chance of noticing the sign.  This goes with verse 3's line "All the letters / Are here to see" [SEE it go! -Fenway Park term for hitting a homer] "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour" is consistent with the Landlord's Tale , a Longfellow poem, Listen, my children, and you shall hear Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five; Hardly a man is now alive Who remembers that famous day and year. and which also makes mention of the Somerset, Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore, Just as the moon rose over the bay, Where swinging wide at her moorings lay The Somerset , British man-of-war; A phantom ship, with each mast and spar Across the moon like a prison bar , And a huge black hulk, that was magnified By its own reflection in the tide. "Feel at home," the line preceding "All the letters," is perhaps a good way to think of this spot in two ways: 1) The Landlord's Tale presents the opportunity to associate the word "home" with "landlord", and "letters" is a great association to Longfellow given his work was primarily epistolary, 2) Baseball motif where standing on the metal box you see the CITGO sign and the globe portion of the lamp is like a giant "Tee Ball". "Lit by lamplight / In truth, be free," the ending lines of verse 3, brings focus to the precise spot where the casque is buried.  I think there's something clever going on in the final words.  The letter "T" is all you need to represent the word "Truth".  A "home run" is a good way of saying "be free".  Once the ball is over the fence, runners head to home without fear of being tagged out. "If Thucydides is," makes the best possible introduction to this puzzle.  Thucydides is EXILED from Athens.  Exile or imprisonment is essentially seperating or excluding one from society.  I am taking that notion and applying it to the Charlesgate site with the four globe lamps gathered in the area and the one sitting in the fenced portion as representing the theme of exile.  The Longfellow-Baseball motif neatly wrap things up to suggest a spot right next to the base of the exiled lamp.  I think the falcon perched on the "T" is a good indication that we dig right in the T portion of the fence. The thing I find most settling in my approach is that Preiss starts this puzzle with an ancient Greek reference to support the spin on things having to do with HOMER.  He then utilizes the perfect place where he can blend the poet Longfellow's "Home" orriented reference in the Landlord's Tale and the well known baseball reference of a "home run". Kit Williams' Masquerade was cool, but this the most perfect puzzle I've ever seen.

Xieish......I like it. I like it a lot. There are some very strong confirmers there. I am one of those that still believe the T and X are solely there to get us to Boston....not necessarily at the site itself. This area really needs some more investigating. How far is this area from say downtown Boston or Copley Sq?

Oops, sorry, I misread. Xieish's spot is in Cambridge which is pretty far from downtown Boston and Copley.

fox wrote:: Xieish......I like it. I like it a lot. There are some very strong confirmers there. I am one of those that still believe the T and X are solely there to get us to Boston....not necessarily at the site itself. This area really needs some more investigating. How far is this area from say downtown Boston or Copley Sq? maltedfalcon wrote:: While that is possible. It is important to remember that at this point 100% of the found casques resolve the exact same way. Everything else is pure supposition. T and X... kind of stupid to say they are solely a fit for Boston when many old libraries around the nation have Thucydides and Xenophon etched in their stone facades.  Here's the panel from the Central Library of Portland, Oregon: I'm tired of seeing people say things are strong confirmers without gathering any serious momentum.  It's nice to know that you agree or disagree with things, and it's nice to know how you're feeling about anything in general, but don't pull out some milquetoasty qualifying statement that ends up being a very insignificant lead.  Thucydides and Xenophon on BPL is a fantastic find.  Of a all the names that are etched on those panels, why did Preiss select those two?  Why two at all?  Why not just one name, or three?  The important point to consider is that he chose Thucydides and Xenophon A) at random, B) for a reason.  How sure are we that the verses depend on the LotJ?  There's no real proof of that consideration in the Cleveland or Chicago solves is there? This is true, but potentially misleading.  There has never been total clarification from the author on all resolvable points.  From what Egbert tells us, Preiss wasn't too chatty about the details or the other casques for that matter.

It isn't the names on the library people. It's the quote. It gets us to Boston.

The quote is ethereal by comparison to how the first lines of other verses result in tangible perspectives.  BPL is a fantastic reference point.  The Celtic styling of the image alone is good enough as a Boston direct clue.  Then there is the Revere lead in 18th day 12th hour. There is clearly a clever something going on in the verse and referring to it as something only to place you in a non-specific spot in Boston is ridiculous. I'll grant that Xieish has worked up some decent ideas, but they have some huge gaps.  People make theories look so interesting as a collection or variety of points, but then they have little or no framework to their development.  Shecrab should get back to her non-linear analysis, those at least kicked major butt when it came to internal consistency.

fox wrote:: It isn't the names on the library people. It's the quote. It gets us to Boston. See, I'd agree with this if Preiss had created the hunt sometime in the last decade. But if knowledge of the quote "A Thucydides in Boston, a Xenophon in New York" were required to make sense of that and figure out it meant Boston, it would make the hunt more or less unsolvable in 1983. Back then, there was no Google. There was no way for a layman to sit at a computer and do a search of all literature that contained both terms. It would mean that the only way a person would be able to move forward with verse 3 would be if they'd happened to read one specific letter, which in the case of most people is so unlikely that I have a really hard time thinking we're supposed to take it to mean Boston. There are literary references in other verses, but none of them are integral to solving the puzzle - they just provide a bit of a hint (Hermann park, etc), a little something for people who've happened to have read those works. But if T and X referred to that quote, you'd be dead in the water without having read that one letter. I certainly agree that the individual puzzles seem to be of varying difficulty and that lateral thinking might be required for some more than others (or it might not - we only have two definitive solutions and a couple good starts), but I just don't think any of them require such an obscure piece of trivia to solve. I'd even say that I depart from the majority in that I don't think T and X refer to the Boston Public Library. I don't have a strong hypothesis as to what they do refer to, but I don't think it's the BPL.

The paths in Fenway Victory Gardens are named with "All the letters Are here to see" Path T is actually east of Path X but if you turn the map left 90 degrees so T is North of X then plots 1 to 5 are in front of you "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction" hxxp://www.docstoc.com/docs/105492446/Maps---Fenway-Victory-Gardens Now see the photos on Google Street Map just outside plot 5 on path P !

I was content to badger just fox... We know M and B were etched in the stone facade of a popular building related to music and along the road, both hinted at in the Chicago verse.  The process of walking to the library just to learn more about Thucydides or Xenophon is neither Boston specific nor Google specific.  Relating Celtic fashion to Boston is easy.  Without a strong hypothesis to defray from the BPL, I can't think why youbwould be against it.  As to why Thucydides and Xenophon, I thought it was hashed out quite well that the best idea so far to come around n a long long time is they were both exiles.  It fits the question, begged by the construction of the verse, "if Thucydides is", is what? In a simple dissociation from the following line, what can we consider?  Exile is a good answer.  Historians or Greek is another.  One idea gains more traction than another...when xieish corrected my assumption, I thought we absolutely nailed the answer. Don't be afraid to use Google.  It enhances our research ability but it doesn't prevent us from using our brains.  Lots of brains around here, but most of it is wasted on stumbling blocks.

wk wrote:: The paths in Fenway Victory Gardens are named with "All the letters Are here to see" Path T is actually east of Path X but if you turn the map left 90 degrees so T is North of X then plots 1 to 5 are in front of you "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction" hxxp://www.docstoc.com/docs/105492446/Maps---Fenway-Victory-Gardens Now see the photos on Google Street Map just outside plot 5 on path P ! I love this idea at first glance.  Go with substitution.  If M and B can be Moz and Beets then Thucy and Xens can be T and X.  Turn that map 90 degrees and you have a working theory. Other things bother me about the idea but I'll hold off for now.

erexere wrote:: We know M and B were etched in the stone facade of a popular building related to music and along the road, both hinted at in the Chicago verse.  The process of walking to the library just to learn more about Thucydides or Xenophon is neither Boston specific nor Google specific.  Relating Celtic fashion to Boston is easy.  Without a strong hypothesis to defray from the BPL, I can't think why youbwould be against it.  As to why Thucydides and Xenophon, I thought it was hashed out quite well that the best idea so far to come around n a long long time is they were both exiles.  It fits the question, begged by the construction of the verse, "if Thucydides is", is what? In a simple dissociation from the following line, what can we consider?  Exile is a good answer.  Historians or Greek is another.  One idea gains more traction than another...when xieish corrected my assumption, I thought we absolutely nailed the answer. Don't be afraid to use Google.  It enhances our research ability but it doesn't prevent us from using our brains.  Lots of brains around here, but most of it is wasted on stumbling blocks. I'm not against it in the sense of thinking it's bad or anything, it's just not a line I'm pursuing. If others want to, that's awesome and they should do that. If you want to know why, here's why. First: It's not common Bostonian knowledge that Thucydides and Xenophon are names engraved on the BPL. No one here would have read that and thought, "Oh yeah, the library." I live here and I didn't know that until someone pointed it out in these forums. What this means is that, if the names refer to the BPL, something else in the image or verse would have to have led the reader to Copley, to get to the point where they'd look at the facade and notice the names.  In Chicago, Mozart and Beethoven were names etched on a wall but there were also references in the image which would lead a person to the general area (the water tower, the turret) and narrow it down to Grant Park (the Bowman, etc). You'd have been in the area and seen the names set in stone and then you'd know you were on the right track. In the present day, we know those names are there on the library because we can Google them. Since no one knows that the solution for v3/p11 is, I can't say that Preiss's intent wasn't for you to read these two names and then go to a specific library in Boston to find out more about them, and then see them on the facade, but I'm just not seeing it. So we come back to the question: A guy in 1983 is standing in front of the library and looks at the facade. What in the image or verse led him there? Not just "Oh, it says 'all the letters' and that could maybe refer to a library," but what specific things would he have looked at that got him there? This is what I keep coming back to - I don't see anything. Second: None of the working solutions have required an especially deep knowledge of trivia to proceed. For the most part, they've all been stage directions. Even the ones in progress tend to work along the same lines: the image gives you a broad sense of where to start looking, then the verses narrow it down and give you an idea of where to dig. None of the verses have required a great deal of lateral thinking or extrapolation. While it's not impossible that verse 3 is the one exception and that you're supposed to interpret "If Thucydides is" as a twisty cryptic clue as opposed to a stage direction (and arrive at the conclusion that it means "exile"), it doesn't fit with the rest of what we know about the construction of the puzzles. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Third: Thucydides is not north of Xenophon. This means that someone in 1983 might have gotten there (however they got there) but then they'd bust out a compass and find out that the verse contains a condition that the physical reality does not meet. Now, if there were some incontrovertible trail from the image and verse which would have gotten them to the BPL, I'd be more inclined to think that maybe the first two lines shouldn't be taken literally and are a riddle in and of themselves, since our 1983 treasure hunter would be thinking, "Well, obviously I'm supposed to be here, but T isn't north of X so it seems like it must mean something else." When I say incontrovertible, I mean something like an exact representation in the image of statuary found in Copley or at the library. In other words, not something that could refer to a visual cue, but something that definitely does . But there isn't anything like that. So if it did refer to T and X, we'd be talking about a clue constructed to dissuade you from a path that was already pretty uncertain. In other words, bad puzzle design. Not only that, but it would mean that the one puzzle is designed badly in a way that the other eleven aren't. The same is true if the lines refer to the letter. Most people wouldn't have read the letter, thus would have been confused by the contradictory nature of what the verse appears to say. But if there were an abundance of additional hard confirmation, they'd be able to ignore that part. For example, the Chicago solution: People were uncertain what was meant by "Where M and B are set in stone," and in fact for a long time there was the incorrect assumption that it must have meant Man and Beast. But there were so many other confirmers that it didn't matter. Fourth: Google doesn't hinder us by preventing us from using our brains. In fact, it hinders us by doing the opposite. The human brain is exceptionally good at seeing patterns, whether those patterns actually exist or not. We draw connections in our heads. Take a look at this: What do you see when you look at it? A human face, right? But it isn't. It looks nothing like one. It's a circle, two dots and a line. But your brain won't let you see anything but a human face, and a smiling one at that. For another example, watch this clip: hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bG7EFhMw8w So Google gives us access to more info than we could possibly have had in 1983 and it gives our brains the chance to draw a lot of different connections, for better or for worse. This is why I keep trying to think about this in 1983 terms. It's easy to take for granted the tools we have now that weren't available thirty years ago, but it's a box that needs to be broken out of. The puzzles were designed by someone who didn't have Google, to be solved by people who also didn't. Which leads to what I said about not having a strong hypothesis. Which I don't. But I do have a slightly hazy one, and here it is. I think that image 11, and probably verse 3, most likely refer to St. Louis. I think this because the only things that seem to correspond directly to things found in Boston are the T and X names, and "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour / Lit by lamplight." The numbers in image 11 are pretty unclear except for 4 and 2. We've established that T and X are names found elsewhere in the country. So either the first two lines of verse three are an incredibly cryptic riddle unlike any found in the other verses, or they don't refer to the T and X found at the Boston Public Library. I think it's St. Louis because Preiss confirmed it. I don't think he intended it as some sort of wizardy riddlemaster clue. He said, "I think you deserve to know you're right about St. Louis, but not about the location." (Yes, I know he wrote St. Louid but I really see no reason to think of that as anything but a typo.) The wording is important. "You deserve to know you're right." He said that to someone who thought they had a solution for that city, and had done work on it. Otherwise, I think he'd have phrased it differently. He wouldn't have said, "For all your hard work, you deserve to know that an unrelated solution in a completely different city halfway across the country involves Louis Armstrong." Others may disagree, and that's fine. This leaves two of the images that we aren't certain about (9 and 11), and image 9 contains a piece of sculpture that is an exact match for one found in Montreal. This leaves image 11. There are no hard confirmers in image 11 that point to Boston. There just aren't any. The best we've come up with are some elements that kind of resemble stuff that's in Boston, kind of, if you use your imagination. There are no Polaroid matches. So in terms of the image, St. Louis is just as likely as Boston. So what I think is that image 11 either refers to things we haven't yet found or to things that aren't there anymore. We're fumbling in the dark with the image. This brings us to the verse. I think the line "In the area of his direction" is significant, assuming it refers to north. If Preiss just wanted us to take five steps north, he'd simply have said, "In his direction." He didn't. "The area of his direction" is nonsense if we try to make it mean heading northward. What I think is that, somewhere out there, there is or was a park in which some of the following conditions are or were met: - There are statues of Thucydides and Xenophon, or a bas-relief, or whatever, and T is north of X, and one of them (since the verse isn't clear who is meant by "his") is gesturing or pointing towards an area of the park (directing you to that area), or - No statues but the names are engraved somewhere in or very near the park, and T is north of X, and the park is in sections and there's a northern part, or - A combination of the two - the names are there, T is north of X, and some statuary is gesturing towards an area; in this case, it wouldn't be clear who "his" refers to unless you're standing there. The "Eighteenth day" (etc) is reminiscent of The Landlord's Tale, sure. But I think it's important to be open to the possibility that it might refer to something else. What, I don't know. It's another thing that might be clearer once you're actually there. For example, plaques don't usually mention the hour. But imagine a plaque that refers to the 18th of a month, and that "twelfth hour" refers to twelve o'clock, the naval direction - in other words, once you've met the conditions laid out in the verse (facing water, your back is to the stairs, you've done whatever other things it says to do that landed you in a particular spot that is lit by a lamp of some kind), the place to start digging is at twelve o'clock - right in front of you. All I'm saying is that I can easily imagine a scenario in which the verse isn't referring to the Landlord's Tale, and in the absence of any other hard confirmation that points us to Boston, it's not something we can rule out. Anyway. Like I say, I'm keeping an open mind. If someone can come up with a path which would lead to the BPL using the image (again, with Polaroid matches and not just resemblances) and which would have been solvable in 1983 (and which is at least consistent with the relatively straightforward method in other solutions - in other words, without relying on obscure references or things like, "Well, the woman holding the box is wearing a scoop neck top, and a 'scoop' is something a news reporter wants, and there are globes in the image, so that's clearly a reference to the Boston Globe"), I'll happily admit that I'm wrong and start doubling down on Boston. But for the time being, the lack of clear hits means to me that Boston is no more likely than some other place we're missing entirely.

Jsp, thank you for a solid post.  Everything you point out is something I can agree with.  My approach may be wrong as well.  I'd like to say more but for now, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts.  Much remains.

I don't know if this is useful or relevant, but the names Thucydides and Xenophon were also carved in the same set panels as Socrates, Pindar, and Apelles in Cleveland. For that matter, Socrates, Pindar, and Apelles are also carved on the facade of BPL. What are the odds?

Unknown: "Mending Wall" is a metaphorical poem written in blank verse, published in 1914, by Robert Frost (1874–1963). The poem appeared as the first selection in Frost's second collection of poetry, North of Boston. It is set in the countryside and is about one man questioning why he and his neighbor must rebuild the stone wall dividing their farms each spring. The neighbor rebuilds the wall without question, quoting "Good fences make good neighbors," a line listed by the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations as a mid 17th century proverb. But Frost's narrator questions the proverb, noting that neither his apple trees nor his neighbor's pine trees are likely to encroach on the other's property. He says, "Before I built a wall I'd ask to know / What I was walling in or walling out / And to whom I was like to give offense." He also observes, both at the poem's opening and again midway through the poem, "Something there is that doesn't love a wall," referring to the forces of nature that bring a wall to decay and require it to be repaired and rebuilt. But the neighbor is not receptive to the narrator's doubts, quoting again at the poem's close that "Good fences make good neighbors." Sidenote: I don't really like the following idea, since it comes togther so weakly.  Its just entrely too complex.  I don't see how Preiss would expect someone to get somewhere with the idea.  Mayb I'm missing something.  I just can't ignore the use of the LotJ and words "cold morning" to mean frost. Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon "Cold Morning" "North" Frost, Robert North of Boston, a collection of poems by Robert Frost. Something to consider.  Why might a great American poet be part of this verse' introduction?  Perhaps this bolsters the resulting location of the John Boyle O'Reilly memorial to Patriotism and Poetry. Deep as this reference is, I think it would make a good selection to support my notion of exile and how the small fence keeps one of the lamps in and fences out the other lamps.

If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction I believe this has three key pieces of information: 1) IF = a prison, Chateau d'If was the place of exile for Edmond Dantes.  Falsely accused of being a Bonapartist, he would've been free had the truth been revealed by the letter which was destroyed by Villefort. 2) 2 objects, one is north of the other and is a metaphor for Thucydides in exile north of Athens.  Thucydides and Xenophon are similar in several respects, a clue that the 2 objects are also similar.  I believe they are both lamps. 3) the ambiguous personal pronoun, "his" may refer to either Thucydides or Xenophon since they are both of male gender.  It seems natural to apply the personal pronoun to the first subject of the main clause.  Stand at lamp-Xenophon and walk five steps towards lamp-Thucydides.

All the letters are here to see The only letters that may have the gift of sight would be "I" or "i".  A simple riddle, seeing = eyes = i i i ...  notice the globe lights in the Charlesgate area?  They look like dotted i's.  I think its very pertainent that the globe lights are used in the specific locating details for the casque.

Unknown: The Massachusetts Historical Society is famous for the thousands of letters of Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Thomas Jefferson held in the Adams Family Papers and the Coolidge Collection of Thomas Jefferson Papers. What about "C"? Going in another direction with this... maybe it's a reference to the Silence Dogood letters?  They were originally published by the New-England Courant newspaper in Boston.  Or maybe it's letters by Presidents such as John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Thomas Jefferson.  The Massachusetts Historical Society holds thousands of these letters and is located at 1154 Boylston Street, near the Back Bay Fens (part of the Emerald Necklace park system). From hxxp://www.masshist.org/collection-guides/view/fa0329 :

naturally the letter C seems like a good fit.  I have a totally direct reasoning to map out the exact spot sometime today.  Hope someone picks up my theory and shows the world another casque.

Landmark A North of Landmark B Stand at A Take 5 steps towards B Turn (there is a latched gate just before the green tower of lights) You are now in the middle Next to a sidewalk and an overpass The fence is metal and forms a wall Facing the water walk down (if this were stairs, you'd be walking DOWN if you're back was on the stair side) Stand just inside the “front door” The globe lights look like letter the letter I I = eye, eyes see. Paul Revere's Midnight Ride in the Landlord's Tale holds a major clue about the Somerset (ship, but in this location it's the building across the street). A = north light, B = south light nearest, F = fence opening, G = green tower Who's going to dig this up?

That diagram in my previous post is missing something essential.... In truth, be free Wk, wasnt it you who mentioned something about truth tables once? Im thinking of p and q being a mirror of eachother like the SS on the Somerset gate....if they could be peceived somehow as $ symbols, then the following might apply, If p is True, then NOT p is False. ...or NOT p = q If $ is Cost, then NOT $ is Free. ...or the backwards S on the gate with some overlapping vertical line, from a lamp or fence post?

I was thinking of a Venn diagram where two circles overlap. Then investigate two lamplights overlapping. Also consider the light area on the globes and NOT the actual globe. That is the lamp is away from the globe.

ah. That makes good sense. One might say the area that's guaranteed to have the most overlap would be precisely between two light sources...or the point exactly between two light sources?

I am about to share some information that will hopefully lead to a solve. Maybe not my solve, but this information will get us to one. I am confident. Use the image however you want... there are confirmers all over the place... BUT IT IS THE VERSE THAT GETS US THERE. If Thucydides is North of Xenophon BPL Take five steps In the area of his direction North on Dartmouth St. - Dartmouth is the school that Oliver Wendell Holmes taught at. From BPL, the street goes 5 blocks until it becomes one-way in the opposite direction for another half-block. But directly in the middle in front of you is... A green tower of lights In the middle section Cross over Storrow on Dartmouth and you'll impale yourself on a green tower of lights before hitting a park. Not just any tower of green lights... our only other tower of green lights at Charlesgate. Notable in front of that is (was) Trimbloid X. With metal walls Face the water Oliver Wendell Holmes , best known for "Old Ironsides" is engraved in the column of his memorial facing the water, so face the water with him. Your back to the stairs Standing directly behind Holmes' memorial, your back is to a large set of stairs (a fire escape on a tall slender home), and your back is also facing Back St. Feel at home You are right next to Oliver Wendell Holmes' home. All the letters Are here to see The poem on the sundial of his memorial's column is "All here" by Oliver Wendell Holmes. Eighteenth day Twelfth hour The poem is opposite his name on the column, so the poem is what you are facing. According to the sundial, you are also facing 12 o'clock. You are staring at the Storrow Lagoon, the home of the Boston Model Yacht Club, founded in the 1920s, which began using the Storrow lagoon in the mid-1930s and it was known as one of the most prestigious model yacht lagoons in the United States. Club racing generally opened in mid-April. If you follow this on street view, you will have a good time. Also, you may want to find Trimbloid X for fun. Give me some credit if you have a good time with this info, cause I think it's legit. You have no idea how bad I personally want to dig this one up. If I have significantly helped you solve this thing, I'd love to do the same with a shovel IMHO, Here's the kicker to all of it... The image is a of the Maltese Falcon and the woman's hand holding the treasure. The Maltese Falcon is the epitome of a MacGuffin. What could we be fixated on that has little importance, but that might reappear in the climax? I find the great in this world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving: To reach the port of heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it,-but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor. - Oliver Wendell Holmes Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch. - Oliver Wendell Holmes

You know thats a damn good theory. Damn you.

erexere wrote:: You know thats a damn good theory. Damn you. Well thank you. According to my theory, there are only a 3 places the casque could be, and they rely on the image: 1) On the memorial side of the Dartmouth St. Comfort/Sanitary House, next to the wall with the box about chest high in the corner: hxxp://goo.gl/maps/Qd3Cg -the box in the image about chest high with the tops of the column below marking the corner 2) Directly in front of the "stairs" in the middle of the the three trees: hxxp://goo.gl/maps/Wqzi3 -the 3 trees to the left of the memorial are aligned like the globes, and when standing in the middle of them, you are also centered with the door, two windows and copula. 3) Directly in from of the memorial at 12 o'clock at the first grass you get to across the jogging path: hxxp://goo.gl/maps/cwDbS -the verse seems to specify 12 o'clock, and the half of the image's window is the memorial. All three places are strong contenders, but I think 1 and 2 are best. I do like how the box being held in the image indicates the spot in all three.

erexere wrote:: You know thats a damn good theory. Damn you. A few people and a couple of shovels would have the casque unearthed in a matter of hours. That's what scared me about posting this. But, go big or go home.

I really like this four21!! Wish we could walk the park on google. What are the odds that there's a crack or chip in the memorial at the same location as the image window? Also this exact location has a view of the top of the citgo sign in the distance. Nice work!!

Deuce wrote:: I really like this four21!! Wish we could walk the park on google. What are the odds that there's a crack or chip in the memorial at the same location as the image window? Also this exact location has a view of the top of the citgo sign in the distance. Nice work!! Thanks, buddy. I am actually aware of quite a bit more than I posted. I've been working on this one for quite a while. I have actually even looked into that being the "K" in "BROOKLINE" on the Storrow Memorial, a quartered cicular tablet with the "<" being split off the "K" from the quartering (however, the assumption that the triangle on the dress was the one that represented the CITGO sign): I posted just the verse solve, because I think we can find many confirmers in the image - and likely some that were unintended - and argue a lot about them too, which doesn't seem to be constructive. See, who knows what the "<" is?? We won't even know for certain once the casque is in hand (just like the Chicago and Cleveland solves - we still argue about the visual confirmers).

This is also an interesting spot on the water side of the Dartmouth St. Sanitary House. I can't figure how your back could be at the stairs at this point, but maybe it doesn't matter and the stairs are just a chronologically earlier clue. You've got the columns, one a bit in front of the other, and the side of the building that is a square inside a square inside a square (wall - window - inner window). You might be parallel with the water, but you can still look at it from between the columns (the fountain kind of looks like the 7 in the sleeve's "70" or the darkened L on the right-hand side of the image). Don't know how long that fountain has been there though.

Yeah we could probably argue for years about which is the correct confirmer. We need some eyes on location and some pics. Looking on google earth there seems to be some steps down to the waters edge in the area. That's not to say your building stairs are wrong. I like those too. But it looks like a nice little nook to the left of the water steps if you walk down. Hard to tell from google but it looks like the steps will block anybody from seeing a person dig. Just food for thought. We need to dissect this area. Also on top of these steps is some kind of round manhole cover type plaque or something. Wonder if it says anything.

Deuce wrote:: We need to dissect this area... Also on top of these steps is some kind of round manhole cover type plaque or something. Wonder if it says anything. This area is called the Dartmouth St. Landing, or the Dartmouth St. Balustrude in the planning. It's original, but the plaque is new (1993). Believe me, I've dissected the area... Shovels in a few spots is all that is required. I think the visuals will make us argue forever, but the location is true, IMHO. I suppose you could get angled with the steps at your back and face the water fountain (again, no idea if it was even there).

Hirudiniforme wrote:: This area is called the Dartmouth St. Landing, or the Dartmouth St. Balustrude in the planning. It's original, but the plaque is new (1993). Believe me, I've dissected the area... Shovels in a few spots is all that is required. I think the visuals will make us argue forever, but the location is true, IMHO. If I had time I would be there with a damn backhoe.

The squares at the very bottom of the image 11 look similar to the stone capping where the man has just walked between. Zoom in. hxxp://goo.gl/maps/Dod4h Hey , you updated it so fast I did not see that you already found this!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... I have actually even looked into that being the "K" in "BROOKLINE" on the Storrow Memorial, a quartered circular tablet with the "<" being split off the "K" from the quartering I posted just the verse solve, because I think we can find many confirmers in the image - and likely some that were unintended - and argue a lot about them too, which doesn't seem to be constructive. See, who knows what the "<" is?? We won't even know for certain once the casque is in hand (just like the Chicago and Cleveland solves - we still argue about the visual confirmers). Here's a thought... I think the first few lines of the verse solidly take us the Dartmouth St. Landing. You'll notice that in the above post, I pointed out the "K" from the Storrow Memorial, which is at the far east end of the esplanade. Considering the exactness of "portal" in the image in relation to the Storrow Memorial, maybe "all the letters are here to see" references the 130-year-old optometry college (read: Snellen chart) on the corner of "[url]Here[/url]ford" Street and Storrow/Back. Then, if you had your back at the Memorial's steps, you would be facing "Water" on the Memorial. After all, I can only confirm the poem was on the sundial, but not that the sundial was there in 1980 or that BP knew about it if it wasn't. Interestingly, if you draw an "X" across the image's circular window to evenly quarter it, you can rotate it to produce the cut-off "<" and it squarely meets with particular lines. It's similar to this, but rotate the "X" and not the image. I might post some more on this later, but the back side of Storrow Memorial matches a quarter of the window after the axises are set as described. Including that bastard circle. It's the quarter with "Water" on it.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: After all, I can only confirm the poem was on the sundial, but not that the sundial was there in 1980 or that BP knew about it if it wasn't. Whoa.

I've got an exact spot... exact... that is spelled out in the verse and that the image confirms. Does anybody know a Boston digger that I can get in touch with?

Well, here it is. The culmination of my recent endeavor to find a new path to the Boston casque. I think it's legit, but you may not. It takes a really different twist at the end, but it utilizes the verse and image word for word and picture for picture. I just couldn't stand the fact that there didn't seem to be any exact dig spot in the lines, so I tried to use the numbers in the verse. https://www.dropbox.com/s/hi12ryrm43v038m/V3I11.pdf?dl=0

I love your idea and won't disagree. You got a lot here. And it all seems legit. However... I'll bring up a question from a while ago. Sure we have coordinates for Boston. That gives us the city and a starting location. But pre-google, how would anyone know to start at the library? Say there was no internet. A person would go to Boston and have no idea to go to the library unless they just happened to pass it and look up to see the names on it. A lot of area and buildings in the city. It would almost be impossible to know you have to start at the library unless it's spelled out to go there. Again I like your theory but the starting position is definitely in question. In your solution you give the first lines of the verse and just say BPL but no idea how you got there except the names which again is nearly impossible.

Deuce wrote:: I love your idea and won't disagree. You got a lot here. And it all seems legit. However... I'll bring up a question from a while ago. Sure we have coordinates for Boston. That gives us the city and a starting location. But pre-google, how would anyone know to start at the library? Say there was no internet. A person would go to Boston and have no idea to go to the library unless they just happened to pass it and look up to see the names on it. A lot of area and buildings in the city. It would almost be impossible to know you have to start at the library unless it's spelled out to go there. Again I like your theory but the starting position is definitely in question. In your solution you give the first lines of the verse and just say BPL but no idea how you got there except the names which again is nearly impossible. I appreciate the feedback and actually agree some what. Calling BPL a "starting" point was a bit wrong. This speaks more the methodology, but I think of the first couple of lines as a place that the verse gets us started at. Walking around from the point identified in the first couple of lines (think about Chicago, Cleveland, St. Augustine, Milwaukee, etc.), we can we find the clues. Sometime in front of you, sometimes behind. It all depends on how you walk. Didn't Chicago and Cleveland do the same thing? As long as you could find your way - NOT to the iconic building that was quite a ways away - but to the first couple of lines, you could park your car and get out and walk around. From there you would find the text and image clues. How could you have found any of those image or verse clues in 1982? All the verses do seem to give a somewhat logical walking line to the clues, and the verse or the image doesn't identify stuff you'd have found anywhere back then.

Thanks for going easy on me. I didn't want to sound like an ass. I think your idea is great and believe your area is correct. Just a reasoning as to where to start is all I need. In Cleveland at least we knew to look for a rectangular area near a curving road and in Chicago we had to match up M, B, Congress, R and L which could be confusing but it worked out and helped as to where to start if you solved the riddle. Maybe those were the easier ones. I don't know. It's just that it seems far fetched to think someone would find the library names without guidance somehow. And there is none. Also is there anything in the image that is undoubtedly a site confirmer that doesn't need interpretation like the solved ones? Just a skeptic finding his way.

I guess I always thought the solved locations relied heavily on interpretation, of both the image and verse. Although, they both did both have at least one clue that was a Polaroid. In my mind, the Storrow compass is as good as it gets. The side view of a bench on a slab ain't that bad, but it is artistic. I don't think the compass is artistic.

some imgs of compass hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMT1 ... mpass_Rose i always thought we should start at the revere house, went there and found somethings maybe now we should go to longfellow bridge 5 N square, scroll work [url]https://www.google.com/maps/@42.363954,-71.053464,3a,75y,309.07h,130.76t/data=!3m4!1e1! 3m2!1sQLOuLMT0VjOl9bvpKYbKwg!2e0[/url] img of scroll [url]https://irs1.4sqi.net/img/general/600x600/THAeGS9MRfLJRMOc9WoqQaLd_7VfyxWfymXl6- TfROU.jpg[/url] moon street and N square street near revere house https://goo.gl/maps/RA5Co street view building with scroll,revere house at N square and moon street [url]https://www.google.com/maps/@42.363881,-71.053163,3a,75y,273.32h,89.08t/data=!3m4!1e1! 3m2!1sN1TwxAaopD5mvmjepQKNfQ!2e0[/url]

I read your description and don't think you need to prove how to get to this location. This is so obvious after Chicago 10 by 13. How did you decide which was seat 1? Could the 18th seat be where you have number 13? The angle of North/South on the overhead view of the compass rose appears to match the tilt of the axis on the globe in image 11 and not the marks on the circular window frame. So we know which is South on the 3 squares. Can anyone see 28,18,8 vertically in the swirl ornamentation? Now the 12th hour if noon, could be in the same south direction. Here is a possible "X marks the spot" on the edge of the concrete slab. (8685)

sorry i dint know the links were bad,trying again, hope it works 5 N square, scroll work https://www.google.com/maps/@42.363954, ... KYbKwg!2e0 img of scroll https://irs1.4sqi.net/img/general/600x6 ... -TfROU.jpg street view building with scroll,revere house at N square and moon street https://www.google.com/maps/@42.363881, ... pQKNfQ!2e0 moon street and N square street near revere house https://goo.gl/maps/RA5Co

One hour video of a bike ride along the esplanade. Skip to about 10 minutes in where the rider reaches the steps and compass rose and see all the benches. Tall lamp posts here too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjCpcp9sFbI (8703)

wk wrote:: I read your description and don't think you need to prove how to get to this location. This is so obvious after Chicago 10 by 13. How did you decide which was seat 1? Could the 18th seat be where you have number 13? The angle of North/South on the overhead view of the compass rose appears to match the tilt of the axis on the globe in image 11 and not the marks on the circular window frame. So we know which is South on the 3 squares. Can anyone see 28,18,8 vertically in the swirl ornamentation? Now the 12th hour if noon, could be in the same south direction. Here is a possible "X marks the spot" on the edge of the concrete slab. (8685) The axis angle is an EXACT match to the upside down image. when standing at the X, with the north star(N) on the north side and the < on the south end. When you number the benches, you are numbering them like the April calendar, from left to right and top to bottom. If you were looking at the compass FROM THE ROAD, 13 would be 18. But you are holding the image upside down to see the bench and slab in the image. If you number while looking FROM THE ROAD and go to bench 18 (what I call 13), your back was never to the stairs... you were just facing the water. But if you have your back to the stairs and face W-A-T-E-R when you number like a calendar, the 18 bench is to the west. Also from this point, the Prudential is directly lined up with the center of the compass (and the tree, which I think is her hair). When you head to it with an upside down image from this point, the slab kicks out to the left exactly like in the picture. Why try to find another X marks the spot when the slab has an ARROW pointing down into it on the 18th bench?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Well, here it is. The culmination of my recent endeavor to find a new path to the Boston casque. I think it's legit, but you may not. It takes a really different twist at the end, but it utilizes the verse and image word for word and picture for picture... https://www.dropbox.com/s/hi12ryrm43v038m/V3I11.pdf?dl=0 Any thoughts from the veterans on this idea?

a friend of mine thinks you may be right

You have a photo of the numbered benches facing the river with a sailboat, but on the previous photo you start from the X (facing WATER on memorial) with your back to the steps and river, then the benches are numbered wrong. 28 would be the farthest in this photo. Maybe this is what confused me before. BTW, the nearby Hatch Memorial Shell has Mozart and Beethoven in stone on the front wall.

wk wrote:: You have a photo of the numbered benches facing the river with a sailboat, but on the previous photo you start from the X (facing WATER on memorial) with your back to the steps and river, then the benches are numbered wrong. 28 would be the farthest in this photo. Maybe this is what confused me before. Yeah... Looking at it now you are right. I'll renumber the PDF when I get home.

"All the letters are here to see" I already found that this may refer to the university fraternities. Now that we are on the Charles river, then this makes more sense now. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=774&p=127152#p127152

bike ride along the esplanade, citgo sign hxxp://youtu.be/70T0dUuZ2EM?t=2m34s

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Yeah... Looking at it now you are right. I'll renumber the PDF when I get home. updated, the other links still work ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/hi12ryrm43v038m/V3I11.pdf?dl=0 ). I appreciate you noticing. I was thinking nobody really bothered with the doc since there hasn't been much feedback, and this is a world away from anything that has been proposed so far. Some support or some criticism would be great. Throwing a wrench in my theory would be much appreciated, if one exists. I'm thinking I'll go dig this weekend. While I enjoy going out for digs, a ride to Boston ain't cheap.

I think it's great. Im sure you've seen it but there's also a leg from the bench on the upside down slab in the image. Didn't see any mention of it though. And what about "twelfth hour"? With the way you have it oriented I was thinking maybe you dig at the south end of the bench 18 slab which would be the 12th hour if you think of the slab as a clock. Just a thought.

Deuce wrote:: I think it's great. Im sure you've seen it but there's also a leg from the bench on the upside down slab in the image. Didn't see any mention of it though. Deuce wrote:: And what about "twelfth hour"? With the way you have it oriented I was thinking maybe you dig at the south end of the bench 18 slab which would be the 12th hour if you think of the slab as a clock. Just a thought. Absolutely! What do you think I have been talking about!?!?! It is sitting in the exact position on the slab in proportion! Do you see what is on the far side of it (i.e., behind the 18 bench)... AN 8! There is also a 28 in the sleeve (the 2 of the 42 is also a 28).Though, I mention none of this because I might just be stretching. Either way, I think this our slab and bench. You come up on the bench from the side, the way the image shows the bench from the side. The arrow points just to the left of the front bench leg straight down. To see the bench oriented like in the picture, you are above 28, below 18, and between the two. 12 o'clock is NOON on the 18th day, that is right in the middle of the 18th day. Or, right in front of you (i.e., "Watch out! Slab at 12 o'clock!). Both the image and the verse seem to have pinpoint accuracy as to where to dig using this theory.

Just a thought about the last line. In truth, be free. This line along with the idea of the bench/calendar lineup got me thinking about the song/poem "On Washington's Birthday", which I thought I saw mentioned by someone before a while back. Perhaps we're not to use April from Revere's ride to orient the benches but maybe some connection to Washington's Birthday in 1732. Maybe February of 1732. Or maybe April of that year to tie in both Washington and Revere. Again, just a thought.

Deuce wrote:: Just a thought about the last line. In truth, be free. This line along with the idea of the bench/calendar lineup got me thinking about the song/poem "On Washington's Birthday", which I thought I saw mentioned by someone before a while back. Perhaps we're not to use April from Revere's ride to orient the benches but maybe some connection to Washington's Birthday in 1732. Maybe February of 1732. Or maybe April of that year to tie in both Washington and Revere. Again, just a thought. The idea is that we have to use the numbers in the lines for something, just like Cleveland and Chicago. So, if we have to find the 18th of something, what is the most important missing information? ... The number of things in total! We need to find a certain number of things so we can go to the 18th. How many are there in total? That isn't specified in the verse. Well, the lines in the poem are taken from the Longfellow poem that describes Paul Revere's ride on April 18th. That would make 18 out of 30... or the total number of days in the month of April. Now we know what 18 is out of! And, what do you know! There are 30 benches in front of you when staring at "WATER" with your back to the stairs!

Very nice deduction, Hirudiniforme! AP

I agree with everything you said. Still doesn't explain the last line. But it might not matter anyways.

It does seem so obviously simple solution to me.

Well, I'll be there tomorrow morning digging a hole. We'll see how it pans out.

Good Luck!

Hirudiniforme, Wonderful...exciting! Godspeed! AP

Have fun. Chuck a spadeful for me.

Thanks, all. Like wk said, it just seems like an obviously simple solution to me too. After confirming everything is as it was, the only way to disprove this theory is to dig. Well, I put the whole theory out there, so rather than have somebody else go dig it up, I decided it'd be best to give it a whirl myself. Disappointment or satisfaction will be fruitful in my mind. T and X to the green tower... down towards fenway... see the compass... 30 benches... stairs and water... dig.

It doesn't seem like it on Google, but the green tower of lights is clearly visible from the names on the BPL. I'll be adding imaes all day. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ads55ugc0d1z ... s6uXa?dl=0

I'd be interested to see what the view is if you face the water, your back to the stairs, at the Arthur Fiedler footbridge.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I'd be interested to see what the view is if you face the water, your back to the stairs, at the Arthur Fiedler footbridge. It has none. It's a ramp.

photo 7 is confirmation of the stone caps on the bottom of image 11. Is there a crack on the compass rose? Do you have "to let" signs outside your buildings? That might explain "all the letters"

Damnit, I was around all day on Saturday. Did Renner meet you. How'd it go??

Hah, I just found a 360 panoramic view from the bottom of the steps and you can turn round and see the Storrow memorial and a nice lamp post. I am using classic Google maps. Not seen that photo before. Is it new? hxxp://goo.gl/maps/pFC4R Where did 421 disappear to? (9016)

wk nice, i think 421 only had a day there, so probly resting now, Xieish, and renner are there viewtopic.php?p=128632#p128632

Ok thanks. I have prepared an explanation to a very exact location but I do not want to post it until I hear from 421. Then it is up to him and possibly Xie. Maybe they are getting permission to dig.

I hit Renner up on twitter completely coincidentally last week just to start a conversation. He mentioned he might be coming to Boston on Sat, but then never followed up. I got excited after reading this, thinking it may be connected and maybe he went dark because they found something but now IDK. Either way I went to 421's site and there was clearly no real dig done. It looks like someone dug around a tree near his bench, but if they found it then damn, because it was right next to a tree & the hole was made with surgical precision. I'm not even positive a human made it. I remain unconvinced that it's at those benches, personally. You get there and you want it to be right, and I follow a lot of the matches that 421 saw. But I just don't feel it, you know? I think the 'K" on Brookline on the compass is dead on, brilliant find. I think I see the turning image upside down & look at the Pru thing. Here's my issue - why does the poem get you to this really unnecessarily specific spot? If the bench/calendar thing is correct, there is no reason to direct you to such a specific location on the compass only to have you vaguely set off toward a bench. Getting you on the N side of the compass looking back in any way would work there. It seems oddly specific, and I'm not sure "feel at home" particularly means take a seat. I guess it could? I also am not sure you can get away with "take 5 steps" being both 5 blocks and 5 footbridges. IDK I'm getting the feeling that the compass is a park confirmer, not a dig confirmer. I think the bench in the Pandora's box is our 'fence and fixture' here and will be visible from the site, however there are 200+ benches on the park. I'm not saying the calendar thing doesn't make a little sense, but it is a bit more difficult than the previous counting solves, which were steps/bricks and trees with no transformation required into a calendar grid. If 421 is correct about everything, I think it's dead between benches 18 and 19, not 12 o'clock ahead, but if the benches are days on a calendar 18th day, 12th hour is directly between the 18th and 19th days. I live here, I ride my bike past this exact spot every single day on the way to work. If it's here, it will be dug up unless the police stop me, and then it's probably just a matter of reaching out to one of the film crews. My fear is that someone will use our work here and finish it off for personal glory rather than the spirit of the hunt but f it, let's just get one out of the ground. I will follow up with what to me is a 100% confirmer of the site, though it points closer to the hatch shell. Again could be a park confirmer, not a dig. I have a theory that I want to look at tomorrow if I can, one specific area that I really didn't look at enough today that has an almost solitary bench and a fixture I can't quite make out.

So it's 5 blocks/bridges to either the Compass or the Hatch Shell, and here is why I find the hatch shell extremely compelling, and also believe strongly that we are in the correct park. hxxp://i.imgur.com/hMp5JFc.png This is a rotation of the map from above of the DCR hatch shell. Notice the dock, which is notably not 100% centered on its boardwalk. Take a look at our image again and tell me when you see it. Our annoying bird friend on his... not quite centered perch? Here's a poor job of illustrating: hxxp://i.imgur.com/z8vCI50.jpg Let's dig this one up. edit: Visual matches from 421 that I also discount: I'm not sold on that window, but OK. I'm definitely 100% not sold on the triangle posted as a confirmer for the triangular pattern on the pillars. There are two of those triangles and they're stylized. There are lots of triangles in Boston, there's a bunch as you walk up Dartmouth St in windows. Tough sell. Need more for "lit by lamplight" IMO as bench 18 isn't even near a lamp. I was wondering about the plaques on the back of the benches but the clues seem more permanent than that. They're all empty now though. In truth be free of course doesn't quite get there, but we dont need a 100% solve I guess.

Thanks 421 for reigniting the fire for me, I had long since assumed I was likely wrong about Cambridge Common but felt defeated and back to square one. I have a strong belief on a site in this exact location. There's another small image confirmer (I think) this morning, but I think it's too vague to post before I go there. There is a spot that I saw a picture from last night that screams "Holy ****" to me, I will be going there after work sometime this week. The Pru is indeed hidden in her dress, except 421 is looking at it from the wrong location, I believe. One thing that bothers me: If the light tower is the end of Dartmouth street, I'm not really sure how that works. By 421s verse solve we're already past the light tower by taking the 5 blocks/foot bridges. Aren't the verses supposed to start in the park? I can get myself to Dartmouth, but I can't get myself anywhere after the green tower of lights... the movement directions stop there.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Any thoughts from the veterans on this idea? Hi. Sorry for jumping in. I only discovered this puzzle a couple of weeks ago, but have been obsessed with it ever since! What's really strange (for me) is to come across this the same week that it's being solved (I believe). Have read most of these huge threads, I'm quite convinced that 421 has the right spot! But I have a few things to add to help make the solution more satisfying. I know everyone here's been hung up on the BPL as the starting point. I think that's complete bunk. T is not North of X there, there's no visual reference to the library in the picture, no one would think to look there pre-Google, yet people are clinging to this. Here's how I think the puzzle was actually meant to be solved (leading to 421's spot): A 1982 person could easily recognize the Hatch Shell design in the lower right of the picture. Confirmed by the 18/12 reference in the poem which denotes both the Longfellow Bridge AND the 1812 Overture - both immediately associated with the Hatch Shell. Also confirmed by the depiction of the curved building on the right side of the main circle in the image, and the fact that the whole top of the image represents the circle around the Hatch Shell, interrupted by the woman's hair and body where the grass in front of the Hatch Shell interrupts its circle. (All pointed out by others on this Forum). So you can get to the Hatch Shell in 1983 without Google. NOW let's start looking for T & X. This job was made harder over the years because the Trimbloid X was moved a few years ago. But the Trimbloid X *is* your Xenophon! Anyone looking for anything relevant near the Hatch Shell that starts with an X couldn't miss it! It was basically where the Esplanade meets Clarendon St. But where is our Thudycides? Where's something that starts with a T that's north of the Trimbloid X statue? Xieish almost has it! He pointed out the T-shaped dock that's right near the Hatch Shell, that's the same off-center shape as the falcon's perch in the picture. But that T isn't quite north of the X. But look what happens if you place the falcon from the picture *on* that perch. I'm having trouble uploading a picture I just made, but if the bird from the image is sitting on that T, his beak and/or the bubble he's about to pop sits pretty much directly north of the X! The damn bird is your Thucydides! Now, got 5 steps in "the area of his direction". Guess which direction our Thucydides is pointing? West towards 421's spot. In the area of his direction means towards the West along the little island of land that's parallel to the esplanade. Take 5 steps means 5 bridges to the end of the island, bringing you to 421's Storrow Memorial Compass! Simple. T is North of X. The bird from the image has a role in the solution. And 5 steps makes sense without having to do Google Maps gymnastics. The green tower of lights is probably the pole right by the Storrow Memorial Compass, to make you actually stop and think about the Compass an realize that it matches the image. Near those who pass the Colliseum confirms you're in the right place near a road that passes near Fenway. Now, you put your back to the stairs and get confused because you can't face the water. But wait, the letters are all here to see. Let me look for the *letters* that say water, which happen to be right in front of me! The reason the verse has to place you on the correct side of the compass is so that you know what orientation to use for the calendar when numbering the benches. From this spot, you're facing the benches, so you know the calendar starts from 1 at your upper left (versus facing the benches from the street). Now you're looking at the 30 days of April/benches, and pick the 18th one, which is right in the *Middle* of a *Section* of benches, and also sounds like Middlesex (Boston's county). BTW the 02115 or 02216 zip code is quite small, but covers this area! Now we have the rest of 421's story. The upside-down box picture matches the bench and slab. Lit by lamplight is the light coming out of the box, shining directly on the prize - represented by the one different-looking stone in the woman's "Emerald Necklace". The reason you have to "Feel at Home" is so that you have a reference point to know where 12:00 is. You sit down, and 12:00 is right in front of you. The casque is directly in front of the bench. Where your feet would be if you're sitting in the center of the bench. Not at the spot to the side where the bench itself would be at 12:00. I also don't understand In Truth Be Free. But I think it's irrelevant like the last lines of some other verses. Best I can come up with is an anagram for Burn Their Feet (that lamplight looks hot at the spot under your feet). But that really doesn't seem right. I'm convinced enough to go digging, but this is really 421's find. 421: Are you still in Boston? Are you looking for help digging? Someone to dig on your behalf? If 421 gives the go-ahead, anyone want to join me on Saturday?? -Len

Before attempting a dig in that area I would have a criminal lawyer on retainer. I'm not being sarcastic, it's a very public spot and there may be repercussions. The ground is also un-probable with anything that isn't a drill. I'm not so sure I am with you on the Thucydidies/Xenophon thing. For one, they would be findable for sure on the ground (which is I'm still pretty sure the main way these were to be solved - Preiss expected locals to solve them quickly). For two, while I can't say for certain anything about the "X" - I'm fairly certain there's no logical way to get the bird to be Thucydidies. A solver in ~1982 would need to confirm things, that solution only makes sense when you have a final spot in mind. I think the hatch is the hatch and not too much more, I mean shoot we stared at this picture for how many years without recognizing it? I had it pegged as like 8 different objects/buildings around Boston. edit: I do like the 1812 overture - whether or not it was intentional (even Preiss wasn't all knowing or omnipotent) it has a nice feel to it

Unknown: I also don't understand In Truth Be Free. But I think it's irrelevant like the last lines of some other verses. See my post on image 11 thread.

Xieish wrote:: Before attempting a dig in that area I would have a criminal lawyer on retainer. I'm not being sarcastic, it's a very public spot and there may be repercussions. The ground is also un-probable with anything that isn't a drill. I'm not so sure I am with you on the Thucydidies/Xenophon thing. For one, they would be findable for sure on the ground (which is I'm still pretty sure the main way these were to be solved - Preiss expected locals to solve them quickly). For two, while I can't say for certain anything about the "X" - I'm fairly certain there's no logical way to get the bird to be Thucydidies. A solver in ~1982 would need to confirm things, that solution only makes sense when you have a final spot in mind. I think the hatch is the hatch and not too much more, I mean shoot we stared at this picture for how many years without recognizing it? I had it pegged as like 8 different objects/buildings around Boston. edit: I do like the 1812 overture - whether or not it was intentional (even Preiss wasn't all knowing or omnipotent) it has a nice feel to it Xie, 1) I think you're right about being careful about digging their without permission. It's very public. 2) I still think my explanation for T and X is fairly likely. The X is an on-the-ground find, and then if you're looking for a T that's north, you might make the bird/T-shaped perch connection. But I also have an alternate explanation: Xenophon means foreign voice. I.e. someone who spoke with an accent, I.e. Arthur Fiedler, whose statue is visible from the Hatch Shell. Nearly directly North of this literal Xenophon is the statue of a guy whose name starts with T - Maurice Tobin. Tobin's statue is very near the first bridge (first of five steps). I think either of my theories on T and X is possible. Either way, you get to take the 5 steps, and logically flow into the rest of 421's solution. 3) What I'm sure about is that the green tower of lights is the lamppost right by the Storrow Compass, which you see immediately and obviously right after you finish the 5th step (bridge). I went there, and it feels unmistakable. Esp when you notice that directly opposite you across the river from this spot is the Green Bldg - tallest in Cambridge. If you're standing at the Storrow Compass looking across the river, you see this tower of lights with the Green Bldg directly behind. A Green Tower of lights. 4) I don't get why WK is looking for a complex theory of In Truth Be Free. Why should that mean "True line of sight?" There's nothing about sight - just truth. And sight to what? Why to a lamppost? How does that lead to a specific spot? 12:00 while sitting on the bench is a specific pinpoint location. The last line should either confirm the spot, or encourage you to dig. I still think In truth be free might be an anagram because it's not a commonly known phrase as written, and seems like a nonsequitor. Haven't come up with a good anagram, but still seems possible, and more likely than a more contrived reference to line of sight. 5) You're right - ground there is not easily probable. 6) 421thrasher - why the radio silence? Getting permission? I'm interested in following up on your behalf (perhaps by trying to get permission), but don't want to without your blessing since (I believe) you solved it. -Len

Yo... I'm back. I had a great time in Boston, but had to sneak the trip in between extensive travelling for work. I'll do a write-up soon. I just got back from Salt Lake City (I visited the Temple and Smith statue - cool stuff). I was also in Phoenix yesterday... hot as hell. Glad to be back. I head to Chicago this weekend and am staying at... the Congress Hotel

So...it's been a month or so since 421 posted what seems like the correct solution, and the board has been strangely quiet. Anyone make any progress pulling it out of the ground? I walked by the site yesterday and notice the ground had definitely been disturbed since I was there last a few weeks ago. There was a 2x2' square of bare ground in front of the bench that used to have sparse grass on it when I looked a few weeks ago. If someone actually dug down here, it was done really neatly - well done. Not sure if it would be possible to dig down 2-3 feel and pull out a casque without having a wider-area opening than 2x2'. So not sure if the grass removal was just a probing mission. Anyway - really curious if the digger found anything? Anyone have any exciting announcements to make?

lengrano wrote:: 6) 421thrasher - why the radio silence? Getting permission? I'm interested in following up on your behalf (perhaps by trying to get permission), but don't want to without your blessing since (I believe) you solved it. -Len Sorry, buddy. I have been travelling non-stop for work over the past 5 weeks. I am exhausted. Additionally, I have been throwing a lot of offline effort at the Charleston image, which I hope to have permission (or at least a meeting to get permission) by the end of day. I will post a full Boston write-up this evening when I get home (9 or so PM because I have Q1 parent/teacher conferences today). BTW - Thanks for the support! I am totally down with you or anyone digging. I just want to know when it's been dug up and get credited with the solution. I will be continuing to dig again at that site until it's out of the ground.

421 are you still going to post a write up of your boston trip?

jekatt wrote:: 421 are you still going to post a write up of your boston trip? Unfortunately, no. It was a great idea when the group was small and homogeneous (for the most part). Now that there are people coming out of the woodwork, it doesn't seem like the smartest idea. Sorry.

Secrets, secrets are no fun That's too bad! You seem to have some pretty good ideas. Personally I think the Boston casque (if there is one) is in the Fens... it's the only place that has multiple visual confirmations. Your 30 benches = 30 days of the month idea is a really good one though, was hoping you'd find one up here

jekatt wrote:: Secrets, secrets are no fun That's too bad! You seem to have some pretty good ideas. Personally I think the Boston casque (if there is one) is in the Fens... it's the only place that has multiple visual confirmations. Your 30 benches = 30 days of the month idea is a really good one though, was hoping you'd find one up here Stick around for a while and make some contributions. People will start to share more with you.

Fair enough!

I dont think anyone has mentioned this here yet, the Italian sculptor Louis St. Gaudens created the Progress of Railroading in DC's Union Station. An inscription there: THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.

I'm in San Francisco for the weekend and decided to do some hunting and found a plaque on the Asian museum in un plaza with both xenophon and thucydides on the side of the building....im heading back up there later today to check out the area again.i took a picture of the plaque but it's too big of a file to post here

gillyworx wrote:: I'm in San Francisco for the weekend and decided to do some hunting and found a plaque on the Asian museum in un plaza with both xenophon and thucydides on the side of the building....im heading back up there later today to check out the area again.i took a picture of the plaque but it's too big of a file to post here nice

Ive found thucydides and xenophon written on the sides of many buildings. Its not an uncommon architectural detail.

In the middle section Note, the double S on the gate of the Somerset building and the fact that a "section" symbol is also a double S, §.

Here's the "green tower of lights" from 2007 compared to the new fancy fresh green one in 2009,

Since Im talking about the Somerset double S as the money symbol $ and the section symbol, I wonder if the lines "all the letters / are here to see" have something of a gambling meaning. A common protocol of etiquette in a Poker situation would go "I see your $5 and raise you $10". It could be argued that Paul Revere took a big gamble hoping he would cross the Charles river undetected. Maybe...

Maybe you stand on the ledge opposite the stairs and face the water, but if you turn to the right you'll see the green tower of lights pole intersecting the middle of the intersecting S's, or "section symbol". That spot could be why there's a small feather (looks like a crack) in the top of the stone circle in image 11. The feather indicates that is where the falcon was standing and using his keen vision. That line of sight also intersect with the spot that's approx 5 steps from the inside of the metal walled fencing.

...that never looked like a fun place to dig. Those heavy shrubs have probably grooted up that ground really well.

I do not at all subscribe to the Charlesgate theory. That is all.

I dont think anyone has mentioned this before, In truth, be free = fence A definition for "fence" involves the sale of stolen goods. How cool is that? A single word that both involves cost and dishonesty. This idea comes as a methodology based on matching a large scale iconic feature for Boston with a small scale Fair Folk riddle hinted at specifically in the last line of verse. In my proposed case, the Green Monster is the best example for a giant fence, which is then followed by the short fence wall along Charlesgate.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: I do not at all subscribe to the Charlesgate theory. That is all. Good because it's not there :-)

decibalnyc wrote:: Good because it's not there :-) That's a relief to hear.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: That's a relief to hear. While it's perfectly okay to not subscribe to the[a/any] Charlesgate theory, how are you so certain that it's not there?

Unknown: Feel at home All the letters Are here to see "Feel at home" is one of the more mysterious lines. Previous suggestions have included Mothers Rest, a house, and Wendell Holmes. Pulling words off signs is a favourite trick, and we haven't seen any of those in Boston yet, so I also wondered about the Fenway Park signs saying "Home of the Boston Red Sox". It's close to the Victory Gardens for the letters. It's worth remembering that we're not necessarily looking for a trail through the lines, or a specific place where everything like the stairs, the water, the letters, feeling at home etc all come together at once; these can just be scattered around the neighbourhood. We do need some specific line to pinpoint a spot though. Facing the water with your back to the stairs sounds like it could be it, though it's still pretty vague. I'm also wondering if the dig spot might include those "five steps".

Unknown: In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle your eyes. And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free ? There's a plaque dedicated to Kahlil Gibran in Copley Square near the library. Not the words on the plaque, but:

Although those words are not on the plaque, the name of the book where that quote is from, is on the plaque - "The Prophet." Interesting. Could "In truth, be free" be another quote from an obscure work of literature? The plaque was created in 1977, right around the time that BP could have been researching the area for clues. Perhaps he saw a newspaper article about the plaque's dedication, and decided to take a quote from The Prophet? Also, "feel at home" could refer to home plate and baseball, in addition to the "home" of the Red Sox as mentioned by WR.

I'm a Red Sox fan, and go to games fairly often. While Fenway Park's shape and grandstands are the same, almost every sign you see has been replaced or changed since 1982, the Jumbotron has been replaced a few times, seats have been built on top of the Green Monster (which is, by the way, a wooden wall sheathed in metal), a large club seating structure has been built above and behind home plate, various parts of the outside periphery have been rebuilt to give more space for new concessions inside (especially under the bleachers), etc. Remember to use photos of the same era.

Feel at home Seems to me this is just a clear instruction to consider the Landlords Tale https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems- ... tail/44637 Line 3 is borrowed. The method of using lamp signals and then avoiding detection by the Somerset seem like good inspiration for how Preiss might hide a casque.

I'm not going to read all of the posts of this particular thread. I think we can attribute the line "In truth, be free." to The Pilgrim's Fathers - Poem by John Boyle O'Reilly. His statue sits at Boylston and Fenway. Read this poem about the Pilgrims and coming to the New World. https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-pilgrim-s-fathers/ Here's the first three lines of the poem: ONE righteous word for Law—the common will; One living truth of Faith—God regnant still; One primal test of Free dom—all combined; See Image 11 thread for possible solve location in Mothers Rest area of Back Bay Fens.

Feels like Home could be Paul Revere's Home in Boston. If you look at the buildings surrounding his house you can see the scrolls which match the Mystic's dress, and other square designs. Why not keep it simple. Yes Paul Revere Mystic is Mystic River The hair looks like Boston Harbor and her face like Columbus The box and castle looks like the old Funeral Parlor which has been torn down The moon is in the "third quarter" Lit by Lamplight The "Old North Church" there is also scrolling on the organ inside the church that matches the mystics clothing and the back fence also matches it. 18th day and 12th Hour = Midnight ride 4/18/1775 All the letters are here to see - Fenway Garden, maybe a referral to his own written letters, or the freedom trail... a is a site, b is a site,c is a site, d is a site and so on.... Hancock feather could refer to Hancocks letters, that were in the trunk, he was getting up in Lexington The large key could be the fountain and the psada where his statue is. T = Tram system 5 steps could be 5 stops at the tram which brings us to North Boston - near Paul Reveres House In truth, be free Bible verse John 8:32 Lit by Lamplight is at the "CHURCH" Well those are my thoughts so far.

I am brand new to this so forgive me, but when I read that verse all I can think of (as a Boston Resident) is the old Rte 93 Overpass/Underpass structures which had tall columns were green and had lights on them, that ran through the portion of the city, right past the Boston garden (the ‘coliseum’) and then straight down Atlantic Ave running parallel to the waterfront where a good portion of piers are. That 93 over pass would definitely have been there in 82 as it wasn’t torn down till the mid 2000s. If I am viewing this right, the verse goes to the woman with the flowing hair. While there are tons of other interpretations of course, a lot of the other landmarks that seem to be represented, in that image many of those people have noticed seemed to be not in the forefront of the picture. Well the only thing I can say is when you would come down 93 before you got to the Garden - you could see the Citgo sign in the distance and a bunch of other Boston landmarks on either side. Bunker Hill Mememorial also comes to mind there as something you could see. For some reason the North End of Boston seems like a great place for this, or just beside it at least ... waterfront park ... I don’t know, liike I said I’m totally new to this but it’s fascinating and I’d love to join the conversation and hunt. Looking forward to hearing more theories! I’m local too if anyone is looking for a ‘digger’ haha

DelRayBoston wrote:: I am brand new to this so forgive me, but when I read that verse all I can think of (as a Boston Resident) is the old Rte 93 Overpass/Underpass structures which had tall columns were green and had lights on them, that ran through the portion of the city, right past the Boston garden (the ‘coliseum’) and then straight down Atlantic Ave running parallel to the waterfront where a good portion of piers are. That 93 over pass would definitely have been there in 82 as it wasn’t torn down till the mid 2000s. If I am viewing this right, the verse goes to the woman with the flowing hair. While there are tons of other interpretations of course, a lot of the other landmarks that seem to be represented, in that image many of those people have noticed seemed to be not in the forefront of the picture. Well the only thing I can say is when you would come down 93 before you got to the Garden - you could see the Citgo sign in the distance and a bunch of other Boston landmarks on either side. Bunker Hill Mememorial also comes to mind there as something you could see. For some reason the North End of Boston seems like a great place for this, or just beside it at least ... waterfront park ... I don’t know, liike I said I’m totally new to this but it’s fascinating and I’d love to join the conversation and hunt. Looking forward to hearing more theories! I’m local too if anyone is looking for a ‘digger’ haha I also thought of the elevated 93 as the green tower of lights. running through the middle of the city. Also ran right up against a castle style building at 177 milk...the grain exchange building. When i first started looking into this, i was convinced it was in the north end as well, around long wharf, cc park area. I dont believe so any more though, but all food for thought

Intereasting. Why have you moved off that area? The more I am reading the verse, the T and the X could be the T Station and the X could be the crossing between Causeway and where the Charlestown bridge is - that is an X that one way goes down Atlantic again with the waterfront and piers that are there at that part of the waterfront ... I don't know it just jumped right out to me reading it. ' Also in the image I have seen the discussion several times about the #42 number. Wasn't that Ted William's number? I don't know, something else that popped for me. Again - sorry I am new at this.

DelRayBoston wrote:: Intereasting. Why have you moved off that area? The more I am reading the verse, the T and the X could be the T Station and the X could be the crossing between Causeway and where the Charlestown bridge is - that is an X that one way goes down Atlantic again with the waterfront and piers that are there at that part of the waterfront ... I don't know it just jumped right out to me reading it. ' Also in the image I have seen the discussion several times about the #42 number. Wasn't that Ted William's number? I don't know, something else that popped for me. Again - sorry I am new at this. Whatttttt....Ted Was 9!!!!!

I know I was kidding about Teddy Ballgame ... but I did post the below in the picture thread but what do you think about this: what if you read the verse as prose and not a verse: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon, take five steps in the area of his direction. A green tower of lights in the middle section, who pass the coliseum, with metal walls. Face the water, your back to the stairs, feel at home. All the letters are there to see. Eighteenth Day, Twelfth Hour, Lit by Lamplight. In truth, be free. if you read this like prose I feel like the Green Tower of lights in the middle section, with metal walls - refers to the T (Boston's transit system) - specifically the Green Line. Which starts north of Boston (slightly) at Alewife station. So the T(hucydides) is North of X(enophon) the X meaning your real starting point. Well if you take 5 stops (steps toward the X) on the Green Line (a vehicle with metal walls) from Alewife the X could be Boylston Street Station which is at the corner of the north side of Boston Common. It is also at a 4 corner intersection of roads (an X). Incidentally two things the T passes along the trip to Boylston Street (even though it is underground at this point) are Park Street Church, which has a spire and buidings around it relating to the painting - and the State House which has a dome top. The reason I focus on the Green Line to begin with is because of the Raised portion of it which opened in 19 42 and happens to pass a coliseum in the Boston Garden. The other reason why I focus on the Green Line is because you pass thru Park Street (one stop before Boylston) where all letters are represented so to speak - the A, B, C, D & E trains all run through there and there are signs for them So what if the eighteenth day, twelfth hour, lit by lamplight, in truth be free can all be found in the public gardens. You could make a case too that all of the other potential Boston landmarks that have been spotted including the Citgo Sign, why they are in spots of the painting that are slightly behind the woman is maybe that refers again to all of the points of Boston that the Green Line can take people to if they continued on it - E train goes out towards back bay, B and C and D all go to Kenmore, D going to Fenway, C and B going to different points past the Fenway including boston college (the Eagles). Have you ever thought about the public gardens? Either side has water in it, monuments, stairs...

I further explored the notion that Thucydides and Xenophon, were chosen by Preiss to represent the histories of Ancient Italy. I thought they shared some idea in common which mattered to how the fair folk approached their plan to hide the casque. I wondered if the 3 hour run of Phillipides from Marathon (north) to Athens (south), bringing a message about the Persian invaders, was being compared to Paul Revere's Ride, bringing word of the impending attack of the British. The older Thucydides resided far to the North in Thrace at the time Xenophon was born in Athens. They were both alive at the same time as the reign of King Artaxerxes I. Apparently the prefix "arta-" means truth. I wonder if "in truth, be free" is also a nod to being free or not enslaved by the invading Persian armies.

erexere wrote:: I further explored the notion that Thucydides and Xenophon, were chosen by Preiss to represent the histories of Ancient Italy. I thought they shared some idea in common which mattered to how the fair folk approached their plan to hide the casque. I wondered if the 3 hour run of Phillipides from Marathon (north) to Athens (south), bringing a message about the Persian invaders, was being compared to Paul Revere's Ride, bringing word of the impending attack of the British. The older Thucydides resided far to the North in Thrace at the time Xenophon was born in Athens. They were both alive at the same time as the reign of King Artaxerxes I. Apparently the prefix "arta-" means truth. I wonder if "in truth, be free" is also a nod to being free or not enslaved by the invading Persian armies. That's a fascinating theory. One that warrants merit.

Unknown: Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch Of the North Church tower as a signal light,— One, if by land, and two, if by sea; Unknown: Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore, Just as the moon rose over the bay, Where swinging wide at her moorings lay The Somerset , British man-of-war; A most general sense or gentle nudge may be gathered LotJ lines: Peridot of old Italy: Antique, and olivine, and rich. antique: something that existed long ago olivine: something like an olive tree. Could be some symbolism based on the foundation myth for Athens, or its use as a gift for abundance or glory, or the symbol for peace. rich: in foods it would mean contains a lot fats or oils; or simply a wealth standard. I think taxation at the center of the conflict with the British is really a good link to the Boston puzzle. Perhaps that's why Preiss uses the word "rich" to describe the jewel. Another track might involve the name of Paul Revere, since "reverence" is something which olives where used since ancient times the oils anoint or circular wreaths to glorify people of significance. The Landlord's Tale by Longfellow, source for the ride of Paul Revere may be strongly associated for the lines "Feel at home", "Eighteenth day", "Twelfth hour", and even "Lit by lamplight", since one often rents a home from a landlord, the poem contains descriptive events at midnight of the eighteenth of April and the passing of a message by lamplight, The poem also highlights the name shared by the building next to the Charlesgate park area, There doesn't seem to be an easy to identify large iconic structure in image 11. Maybe it's the triangle of the citgo sign. Maybe it's some building fitting the architecture drawn on the box. Whatever the case, I think the Longfellow poem gives us the best link limiting us to a space in the city.

adding to my recent musings, I wanted to explore the birthstone connection. Peridot is August. august (adj.) "inspiring reverence and admiration, solemnly grand," 1660s, from Latin augustus "venerable, majestic, magnificent, noble," perhaps originally "consecrated by the augurs, with favorable auguries" I wonder if Preiss gave a bit of thought to the word august = revere nce. At a glance, that seems like a simple way to jump to something to do with Paul Revere.

erexere wrote:: adding to my recent musings, I wanted to explore the birthstone connection. Peridot is August. august (adj.) "inspiring reverence and admiration, solemnly grand," 1660s, from Latin augustus "venerable, majestic, magnificent, noble," perhaps originally "consecrated by the augurs, with favorable auguries" I wonder if Preiss gave a bit of thought to the word august = revere nce. At a glance, that seems like a simple way to jump to something to do with Paul Revere. I really like how your mind works, but unless Preiss was a super genius, I wonder if he got this philosophical with The Secret.

Hope everyone's having a great weekend! Thought I'd post a couple thoughts to go against the grain, just in case anyone's open to a possible Image 8 / Verse 3 pairing. (Before you call me a complete j/a, the "search" feature did pull up a handful of times that this had been discussed before.) -Regarding Thyucides & Xenophon: it looks like pretty much everyone agrees that we're probably looking for engravings, as was done in Cleveland, but... is it possible these names were just chosen as a way to spell out the postal abbreviation "T.X."? -Houston was also home to the "Sam Houston Coliseum", 801 Bagby Street, which was demolished in 1998. -On those "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour" lines, could these be a reference to the Juneteenth celebrations, which began in Texas, as opposed to Longfellow's poem about Paul Revere? (Although the holiday is officially celebrated on June 19, apparently Union troops first arrived in Galveston on the 18th.) Anyone know if there's any emancipation-related monuments in/around Houston?

JamesV wrote:: Hope everyone's having a great weekend! Thought I'd post a couple thoughts to go against the grain, just in case anyone's open to a possible Image 8 / Verse 3 pairing. (Before you call me a complete j/a, the "search" feature did pull up a handful of times that this had been discussed before.) -Regarding Thyucides & Xenophon: it looks like pretty much everyone agrees that we're probably looking for engravings, as was done in Cleveland, but... is it possible these names were just chosen as a way to spell out the postal abbreviation "T.X."? -Houston was also home to the "Sam Houston Coliseum", 801 Bagby Street, which was demolished in 1998. -On those "Eighteenth day / Twelfth hour" lines, could these be a reference to the Juneteenth celebrations, which began in Texas, as opposed to Longfellow's poem about Paul Revere? (Although the holiday is officially celebrated on June 19, apparently Union troops first arrived in Galveston on the 18th.) Anyone know if there's any emancipation-related monuments in/around Houston? Emancipation Park at 3018 Emancipation Avenue, in the Third Ward. There are some small monuments, but they’re really beneath public notice. I can’t tell you where they are. Interesting ideas you came up with, but those of us in Houston all like Verse 8. I threw that out there in case you’re onto something,

shecrab wrote:: Another thing: isn't Post Office Square a short distance from Copley Square? Post office= letters (all the letters .) Wanted to bump this old post from SheCrab... did any Boston searchers ever take a closer look at this idea? The Post Office idea seems reasonable enough to me. Just a couple observations/V3 thoughts: -As much as it pains me to reference Google Maps imagery, or any theories from the Wiki site, the map view of the George Thorndike Angell Memorial next to Post Office Square does seem to "resemble" the Charlesbridge "2C" site that a lot of people seem to have focused on. -Also, it looks like there's a "Water Street" just north of Post Office Square... any possibility that a street name might be the reference point for "Face the water", as opposed to an actual body of water? At first glance, it looks like the Post Office Square area (now called the Norman B. Leventhal Park) has gone through a lot of renovation since 1981. Still, I'd bet that the Boston Public Library's main branch would have some period photos of this area.

shecrab wrote:: Another thing: isn't Post Office Square a short distance from Copley Square? Post office=letters (all the letters.) Wanted to bump this old post from SheCrab... did any Boston searchers ever take a closer look at this idea? The Post Office idea seems reasonable enough to me. Just a couple observations/V3 thoughts: -As much as it pains me to reference Google Maps imagery, or any theories from the Wiki site, the map view of the George Thorndike Angell Memorial next to Post Office Square does seem to "resemble" the Charlesbridge "2C" site that a lot of people seem to have focused on. -Also, it looks like there's a "Water Street" just north of Post Office Square... any possibility that a street name might be the reference point for "Face the water", as opposed to an actual body of water? At first glance, it looks like the Post Office Square area (now called the Norman B. Leventhal Park) has gone through a lot of renovation since 1981. Still, I'd bet that the Boston Public Library's main branch would have some period photos of this area.

Unknown: Take five steps In the area of his direction Unknown: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon https://www.asla.org/2014awards/img/381-01_mini.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Offi ... re,_Boston https://www.asla.org/2014awards/381.html "The above-ground parking garage was demolished in 1988" Re: post office square - it looks like it was made in 88. In 81 it appears to have been a parking garage. (links above). It's 1.3 miles from copley to post office square, seems too far. re: The boston verse 13 in general: the thing I think we're missing most is a clear starting point (that is connection to the verse and the image and the next steps in the verse). "Take first steps in the area of his direction" seems to confirm to me we need to decode the two lines to determine where to start so that then we may "take five steps". Which is tough because they don't appear to tie to a specific location that's confirmed in the image, and it's an obscure literary city reference to Boston. We know these two lines most as a direct reference to Boston (and nyc) in a letter from Horace Walople (British art historian, man of letters) to Horace Man (with a bonus reference to August via Augustan Age). - This seems like a rather obscure reference in 1982 without google. - It seems like more of to point to boston in the verse (Like the revere reference later) without tying to a specific place (at least that we know about yet) - There doesn't seem to be a clear way to tie these first two lines to the image (or a specific location besides BPL or the Horace Mann statue) - There is a Horace Mann statue outside the Boston State House / edge of Boston Common Freedom Trail, which is a near a lot of stuff. - As we know Thucydides & Xenophon are inscribed on the exterior wall of the BPL. The BPL seems like a pretty good starting location, but the lack of image confirmers and path confirmers (a street name, for example) and a clear direction out of there to another area have me worried it's still an unclear place to start, what does everyone else think? Are there any other locations these first 4 lines might be starting from?

Unknown: Take five steps In the area of his direction Unknown: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon https://www.asla.org/2014awards/img/381-01_mini.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Offi ... re,_Boston https://www.asla.org/2014awards/381.html "The above-ground parking garage was demolished in 1988" Re: post office square - it looks like it was made in 88. In 81 it appears to have been a parking garage. (links above). It's 1.3 miles from copley to post office square, seems too far. re: The boston verse 13 in general: the thing I think we're missing most is a clear starting point (that is connection to the verse and the image and the next steps in the verse). "Take first steps in the area of his direction" seems to confirm to me we need to decode the two lines to determine where to start so that then we may "take five steps". Which is tough because they don't appear to tie to a specific location that's confirmed in the image, and it's an obscure literary city reference to Boston. We know these two lines most as a direct reference to Boston (and nyc) in a letter from Horace Walople (British art historian, man of letters ) to Horace Man (with a bonus reference to August via Augustan Age). - This seems like a rather obscure reference in 1982 without google. - It seems like more of to point to boston in the verse (Like the revere reference later) without tying to a specific place (at least that we know about yet) - There doesn't seem to be a clear way to tie these first two lines to the image (or a specific location besides BPL or the Horace Mann statue) - There is a Horace Mann statue outside the Boston State House / edge of Boston Common Freedom Trail, which is a near a lot of stuff. - As we know Thucydides & Xenophon are inscribed on the exterior wall of the BPL. The BPL seems like a pretty good starting location, but the lack of image confirmers and path confirmers (a street name, for example) and a clear direction out of there to another area have me worried it's still an unclear place to start, what does everyone else think? Are there any other locations these first 4 lines might be starting from?

I agree that, without Google, Preiss couldn’t have obtained this info. One consistent element is that Preiss only used extremely common sources like those Abroad in America copies that seem to be littered on every street corner. Plus, it’s not like there was some magical building nearby that archives obscure information.

Seriously speaking, I like your notion that the starting point needs to be recalculated. I just think the google deduction is not in line with the references we’ve sleuthed out so far, most of which are pretty obscure

drunknerds wrote:: Seriously speaking, I like your notion that the starting point needs to be recalculated. I just think the google deduction is not in line with the references we’ve sleuthed out so far, most of which are pretty obscure I agree. For example using T and X as symbols for actual things, such as T (subway system), possibly X for Exeter Street. I am not saying that these are what I am saying the T and X are, I just like to think along those lines. Along lines like these too...The Lenox Hotel, in Copley, has a huge sign on it that says THE LENOX at the top in neon red. Shining in the sky, for all to see. All the letters . That sign has been there for decades. THE LENOX starts with a T and ends with an X. Another 2 examples of a T and X . And the T is north of the X in this case. Again, I am not saying this is what T and X represent. Could be though. I just think the starting point could be something other than, possibly still near to, the BPL. Also worth noting with the Lenox Hotel is that Judy Garland stayed there in the 60s and there is a Judy Garland suite in the hotel. What was her famous wizard of oz line...."there's no place like home" Also wondering if the ref to Thucydides and Xenophon are just to show that we are supposed to be in Boston, as Boston is nicknamed Athens of America. hxxp://www.celebrateboston.com/culture/ ... origin.htm I do find the Aristedes statue interesting, as he is called Aristides the Just (truth), and another Greek. Yes, I know we are looking for an Italian connection. But why start with those Greeks.

drunknerds wrote:: Seriously speaking, I like your notion that the starting point needs to be recalculated. I just think the google deduction is not in line with the references we’ve sleuthed out so far, most of which are pretty obscure I agree. For example using T and X as symbols for actual things, such as T (subway system), possibly X for Exeter Street. I am not saying that these are what I am saying the T and X are, I just like to think along those lines. Along lines like these too...The Lenox Hotel, in Copley, has a huge sign on it that says THE LENOX at the top in neon red. Shining in the sky, for all to see. All the letters. That sign has been there for decades. THE LENOX starts with a T and ends with an X. Another 2 examples of a T and X . And the T is north of the X in this case. Again, I am not saying this is what T and X represent. Could be though. I just think the starting point could be something other than, possibly still near to, the BPL. Also worth noting with the Lenox Hotel is that Judy Garland stayed there in the 60s and there is a Judy Garland suite in the hotel. What was her famous wizard of oz line...."there's no place like home" Also wondering if the ref to Thucydides and Xenophon are just to show that we are supposed to be in Boston, as Boston is nicknamed Athens of America. hxxp://www.celebrateboston.com/culture/ ... origin.htm I do find the Aristedes statue interesting, as he is called Aristides the Just (truth), and another Greek. Yes, I know we are looking for an Italian connection. But why start with those Greeks.

gManTexas wrote:: That's a fascinating theory. One that warrants merit. you got half the top one, consider another verse clue as well...theres a key word in there

JoshCornell wrote:: you got half the top one, consider another verse clue as well...theres a key word in there I am absolutely not looking for any clarification or validation from you with regards to Boston. We have met, I see what you know about our city. No disrespect of course, but I am not interested to hear your opinions on what you think is right or wrong with regards to here.

starting point is christopher columbus btw

that reply wasnt to or for you..so who cares what you think? lol

JoshCornell wrote:: starting point is christopher columbus btw Why?

there is a very simple logic, to discern a general starting point, though sometimes youre pushed back further overall. but lets do it this way...the face is from the statue...and what is the first clue...?

Unknown: But why start with those Greeks. My guess is that they are going to be easier to find, relatively speaking. As we have found, the literary clues make a basic, but irrefutable connection. So it's important that they exist, and that you could find them if you knew what you were looking for. That, to me at least, seems pretty clear. It's only when we try to expound on their significance that we start arguing.

JoshCornell wrote:: there is a very simple logic, to discern a general starting point, though sometimes youre pushed back further overall. but lets do it this way...the face is from the statue...and what is the first clue...? Again, let's separate opinion from fact. It is your opinion that the Christopher Columbus statue looks like the woman in the image. It is not a fact. Please stop littering this forum with your self-proclaimed facts.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: My guess is that they are going to be easier to find, relatively speaking. As we have found, the literary clues make a basic, but irrefutable connection. So it's important that they exist, and that you could find them if you knew what you were looking for. That, to me at least, seems pretty clear. It's only when we try to expound on their significance that we start arguing. yeah was really a rhetorical question

im not even addressing you...let follow reply to his/her own query ffs.

JoshCornell wrote:: im not even addressing you...let follow reply to his/her own query ffs. Perhaps you should have sent a private message then hahahahaa

why would i do that? you could just not troll. that would be sufficient...

Unknown: yeah was really a rhetorical question Shouldn't have been. It was a good question to ask and answer.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Shouldn't have been. It was a good question to ask and answer. Fully agree. Well not so much rhetorical, however, more of a question to ask, think about, and try to answer. I just meant it as I was not asking in hopes of someone answering it, but more in hopes of asking to try to really figure out why. Rhetorical was a poor word choice on my part

In thinking more about the month of this image (as is being discussed in another thread) August, I go back to something I was researching quite a bit this winter. The New England College of Optometry. This is located at 424 beacon street. Founded by a man named AUGUST Klein in 1894. It is the oldest continuously operating college of optometry in the US. In addition to the use of the month of August, it could be used for the line "all the letters are here to see". As that is exactly what you are doing when undergoing an eye exam, looking at letters. I noticed in the past that the New England College of Optometry was discussed, but not in connection with the founder's name, August. Just behind this building (424 Beacon) is Back Street. I like this too, with there now being ramps (possibly stairs in the 80s, maybe had to change to ramps to comply w handicap ramp codes/guidelines), over Storrow drive to the Esplanade. "Back to the stairs" Back street to the stairs. I still like the esplanade for this....

the sf puzzle has a strawberry and rose, with moons, and a full moon in june is known as the strawberry and/or rose moon

you know what's funny? I told someone about it(the moons) and colors in a PM just recently, and that person replied me he have no comment and good luck

Hey all a couple of things I wanted to clarify regarding the age of significant statues in Boston related to the hunt that I got wrong in an earlier post and I've seen confused a few times John Copley statue in Copley square was erected in 2002 https://friendsofcopleysquare.org/john-singleton/ . So the theories that say start at the BPL and go in the "area of his direction" being the direction copley is facing (north) are out. The letters from Horace Walople that mention thucidydyes/xenophon/boston/newyork are actually to Sir Horace Mann (edit: mann not man) (a British diplomat who resided interestingly in Florence Italy (italian connection ya'll), not Horace Mann the famous boston public educator (who has a statue at Boston State House). So that connection seems out, unless Preiss was using the similar names purposefully or made a misconnection himself.

youre wrong on both accounts. if you dont see the connection bw man and mann...youre doomed for failure. also, why would you need a statue when you have the square named after him? not saying this is how i use the clues...just sayin...

JoshCornell wrote:: youre wrong on both accounts. if you dont see the connection bw man and mann...youre doomed for failure. also, why would you need a statue when you have the square named after him? not saying this is how i use the clues...just sayin... For someone who hasn't proved himself right yet, you show an amazing ability to call other people wrong.

ive more than proven myself lol. y'all are just ignorant. (not all, but many) if you guys want to let ego get in the way that's fine. its your problem not mine. if you dont want to listen to me, thats also fine. but it would be an err on your part. that i can assure you. the fact that you dont want me to see the bigger picture, doesnt mean i dont

you need to reflect on that comment, and see that i told the person telling other people they are wrong, they are wrong...therefore i was actually saying the other observations were valid.

JoshCornell wrote:: ive more than proven myself lol. y'all are just ignorant. (not all, but many) if you guys want to let ego get in the way that's fine. its your problem not mine. if you dont want to listen to me, thats also fine. but it would be an err on your part. that i can assure you. the fact that you dont want me to see the bigger picture, doesnt mean i dont I've listened to you, in person. You did not prove anything. You did not even know the age of the fountain in Copley or that the floors of the BPL courtyard were made of wood in the past. You referred to Michigan for some unknown reason, for a Boston puzzle. No one is facing in the direction of MICHIGAN to look for the Boston casque. Please stop polluting our threads for Boston with this madness when we are actually, for the most part, trying to work together. Actually, you have proved a few things, but nothing in relation to this puzzle.

Unknown: For someone who hasn't proved himself right yet Honest question: What would it take before someone is considered "right"? Is it a casque in hand and only a casque in hand, or can it be something (an idea, a methodology, and observation, etc.) that most reasonable people can agree with, and then use to help all of us move the puzzle along? IOW, is the statement above another example of the Step 5 Fallacy, or is there more substance to it than that?

strike13 wrote:: I've listened to you, in person. You did not prove anything. You did not even know the age of the fountain in Copley or that the floors of the BPL courtyard were made of wood in the past. You referred to Michigan for some unknown reason, for a Boston puzzle. No one is facing in the direction of MICHIGAN to look for the Boston casque. Please stop polluting our threads for Boston with this madness when we are actually, for the most part, trying to work together. Actually, you have proved a few things, but nothing in relation to this puzzle. you talked to me for like 5 mins.

i dont recall ever mentioning michigan lol...i didnt say face the direction of michigan...you either misheard or misremember...i apologize i wasnt more clear. but you shouldnt think you know what i think or know. also, as bingo and i discussed after you left...neither of those matter i knew the place was renovated, i just didnt know the statue wasnt there when bp was there (also doesnt matter, as it is very clearly referenced...and i was right about the ref...)...and...did you see how i found the statue the other day? in a totally different state? also, if you would have listened to what i did tell you...you would have made the potential connection yourself. concerning michigan, dont think i said anything about it...i did say to look at a person, however. which is the obvious answer. in the most primary sense.

if you do choose to meet me, you should probably listen more carefully than miss strike.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Honest question: What would it take before someone is considered "right"? Is it a casque in hand and only a casque in hand, or can it be something (an idea, a methodology, and observation, etc.) that most reasonable people can agree with, and then use to help all of us move the puzzle along? IOW, is the statement above another example of the Step 5 Fallacy, or is there more substance to it than that? Good question that would be the person has a methodology that demonstratably leads to a casque. So yes without digging up a casque and key (or proven-part thereof) the person has a theory, Some theories are really good, some are really obvious, some are very convoluted, but they are all still theories, and deserve the same scrutiny . You ask what about "(an idea, a methodology, and observation, etc.) that most reasonable people can agree with, and then use to help all of us move the puzzle along?" which comes back to the basic question of what does "Move the puzzle along?" mean, - obviously digging up another casque is the only guage of that.

Unknown: that would be the person has a methodology that demonstratably leads to a casque. ...more than one casque, for me.

Baseball players, back in the day, used to talk about Fenway Park as playing in a metal box (think Green Monster). Am I the only one who sees Erin's box as a Fenway Park night game with the stadium lights?

Unknown: what does "Move the puzzle along?" mean, - obviously digging up another casque is the only guage of that Really? If there are people in St. Louis, or Louisville, or Philadelphia looking for a casque, and you show them that there is not, and has never been a casque in their city, wouldn't you agree that the puzzle has moved along for those searchers? Similarly, if you are using Verse 7 to search for a casque in New Orleans, or Verse 10 to search for a casque in San Francisco, or Verse 5 to search for a casque in Charleston, and you are shown that you are using the wrong verse, wouldn't those also be examples of "moving the puzzle along"? The puzzle is moving along, and we are, IMO, getting closer to understanding how it was supposed to work. This despite the fact that we have not dug up a casque in over 14 years. Solving for Step 5 is one of the best gauges to be sure, but it is far from the only one. There is a casque in Boston. You will need Image 11 and Verse 3, and a whole lot of other information to find it. There, Back on topic.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Really? If there are people in St. Louis, or Louisville, or Philadelphia looking for a casque, and you show them that there is not, and has never been a casque in their city, wouldn't you agree that the puzzle has moved along for those searchers? Similarly, if you are using Verse 7 to search for a casque in New Orleans, or Verse 10 to search for a casque in San Francisco, or Verse 5 to search for a casque in Charleston, and you are shown that you are using the wrong verse, wouldn't those also be examples of "moving the puzzle along"? The puzzle is moving along, and we are, IMO, getting closer to understanding how it was supposed to work. This despite the fact that we have not dug up a casque in over 14 years. Solving for Step 5 is one of the best gauges to be sure, but it is far from the only one. There is a casque in Boston. You will need Image 11 and Verse 3, and a whole lot of other information to find it. There, Back on topic. Really? in that, while we can suspect there is no casque in ST.Louis, Louisville or Philadelphia, someone finding a casque there would prove the theory wrong, don't you agree? yet so in reality although you really really want to believe that we know the cities and image/verse combinations. (and I agree with you) We don't really know, because the moment that someone finds a casque using a different city or verse combo.(however unlikely) they would show not only did we not make progress by thinking and sharing those things, we actually moved things backwards.... so you see the only gauge is finding a casque.

Unknown: so you see the only gauge is finding a casque. If that were true, knowledgeable people would still be looking for these things in Philadelphia. There are valid and perfectly logical reasons why they don't, even if you refuse to acknowledge it Matt.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: If that were true, knowledgeable people would still be looking for these things in Philadelphia. There are valid and perfectly logical reasons why they don't, even if you refuse to acknowledge it Matt. to simply refute that I point you to the current batch of Facebook Posts. seems Philadelphia, New Jersey and Delaware are still in the running.

delaware? lmao. delaware prob needs one tbh.

Unknown: Nowadays, I suppose no one reads Horace Walpole. [discusses how Walpole invented serendipity via Three Princes of Serendip fairy tale ] The outstanding example of Serendipity is the discovery of America. Columbus stumbled by accident and sagacity on an unknown continent. Just wanted to jot down a few of my recent thoughts after reading all 140 image 11 posts and most or all of the verse 3 posts. This stuff isn't new just my thoughts on how it all comes together (spoiler alert it probably doesn't but I'll try my best) Starting points Boston Public Library is still the best we got. It has the names written on the facade, it's a fantastic place with tons of history that Byron would've loved. The main issue is there are no clear image connections in the area, and it's kind of an unclear direction given in the verse. A nearby image match pandoras box (3 or 4 blocks away) is the Castle at Park Plaza . Interestingly this building was designed by William G. Preston who also the old Coliseum a possible verse match which was located in Copley as well. Also this building is on Columbus Ave (see next section). And also, it's design (and really all Romanesque Revival architecture building were probably influenced by Walpole's Strawberry Hill, which looks a lot like the box as well and obviously is referenced in the verse). The Christopher Columbus Connection. There is a small verse literary match for Christopher Columbus: The first two lines reference Walpole, who invented the term serendipity. In this letter by MJ Rosenau (1935, Harvard Medical School, Boston) Also I do think the face of Pandora does match the christopher columbus statue (for me, the shape of the nose matches) It's a tempting to stretch this Columbus reference to the Leif Erikson statue (located in a very diggable fens area near 2c) (since Leif preceded Columbus like Thucydides preceded Xenophon) but there's nothing I've been able to to find to confirm the connection in the image or verse. Where to go from BPL North to the Esplande. It's like 5 blocks to back street North. You can then "your back to the stairs" (back st to the pedestrian bridge "stairs" to the esplande). "All the letters" might also match the alphabetical street names you pass along back street to the bridge. Then possibly "18th day, 12th hour" can refer to the 1812 overture could be a reference to the Hatch Shell (which could also be an image mage) or the Longfellow bridge in the distance. No clear feel at home reference or in truth be free reference. And from there we would need to figure out the rest of the verse/image matches to a dig spot. I also wanted to point out the Maurice J Tobin statue (and the arthur fielder bridge plaque and a paul revere plaque at the paul revere mall) by the Hatch Shell is kind of interested because it was sculpted by Emilius Ciampa who immigrated to the North End from Italy at a young age and did some cool shit. I can't find any clear verse/image connections though to Tobin/Ciampa though. Southeast to the Fens. It's about 5 or 6 blocks from the BPL to the fens. Southeast might make sense because it's the direction or Lief Erikson (or where he is pointing) (Thucididyes to Columbus's Xenophon) or it's just the direction of New York referenced in the walpole letter. After arriving in the Fens it's somewhat unclear what to do. There are some juicy verse matches (all the letters=fenway victory garden paths) (feel at home = others rest), but not a good match for "18th day/12th hour" or "in truth be free". There are plenty of cool lamps though.

dosethree wrote:: Just wanted to jot down a few of my recent thoughts after reading all 140 image 11 posts and most or all of the verse 3 posts. This stuff isn't new just my thoughts on how it all comes together (spoiler alert it probably doesn't but I'll try my best) Starting points Boston Public Library is still the best we got. It has the names written on the facade, it's a fantastic place with tons of history that Byron would've loved. The main issue is there are no clear image connections in the area, and it's kind of an unclear direction given in the verse. A nearby image match pandoras box (3 or 4 blocks away) is the Castle at Park Plaza . Interestingly this building was designed by William G. Preston who also the old Coliseum a possible verse match which was located in Copley as well. Also this building is on Columbus Ave (see next section). And also, it's design (and really all Romanesque Revival architecture building were probably influenced by Walpole's Strawberry Hill, which looks a lot like the box as well and obviously is referenced in the verse). The Christopher Columbus Connection. There is a small verse literary match for Christopher Columbus: The first two lines reference Walpole, who invented the term serendipity. In this letter by MJ Rosenau (1935, Harvard Medical School, Boston) Also I do think the face of Pandora does match the christopher columbus statue (for me, the shape of the nose matches) It's a tempting to stretch this Columbus reference to the Leif Erikson statue (located in a very diggable fens area near 2c) (since Leif preceded Columbus like Thucydides preceded Xenophon) but there's nothing I've been able to to find to confirm the connection in the image or verse. Where to go from BPL North to the Esplande. It's like 5 blocks to back street North. You can then "your back to the stairs" (back st to the pedestrian bridge "stairs" to the esplande). "All the letters" might also match the alphabetical street names you pass along back street to the bridge. Then possibly "18th day, 12th hour" can refer to the 1812 overture could be a reference to the Hatch Shell (which could also be an image mage) or the Longfellow bridge in the distance. No clear feel at home reference or in truth be free reference. And from there we would need to figure out the rest of the verse/image matches to a dig spot. I also wanted to point out the Maurice J Tobin statue (and the arthur fielder bridge plaque and a paul revere plaque at the paul revere mall) by the Hatch Shell is kind of interested because it was sculpted by Emilius Ciampa who immigrated to the North End from Italy at a young age and did some cool shit. I can't find any clear verse/image connections though to Tobin/Ciampa though. Southeast to the Fens. It's about 5 or 6 blocks from the BPL to the fens. Southeast might make sense because it's the direction or Lief Erikson (or where he is pointing) (Thucididyes to Columbus's Xenophon) or it's just the direction of New York referenced in the walpole letter. After arriving in the Fens it's somewhat unclear what to do. There are some juicy verse matches (all the letters=fenway victory garden paths) (feel at home = others rest), but not a good match for "18th day/12th hour" or "in truth be free". There are plenty of cool lamps though. With regards to the esplanade. There is a perfect fit for "feel at home". The signs on sorrow dr., which are viewable from the esplanade, have read IF YOU LIVED HERE, YOU'D BE HOME NOW. been there since the 60s. https://imgur.com/a/pQ1j1bU

strike13 wrote:: sorrow dr. Possibly the most accurate typo ever.

BINGO wrote:: Possibly the most accurate typo ever. Hahahaha! it is full of sorrow yes...love it! hahaaha!

So no hints for Verse 3, because any hint would give it away? That makes this seem like an easier puzzle...

Feel at home is the Victory Gardens

Unknown: Feel at home is the Victory Gardens In your world, of course.

How many of the lamp posts are there at Charlesgate Park like the ones in the “circles?” I’ve been going through the threads looking for a count but haven’t come across it, if it’s there. Anyone live in the area that has counted them? I counted at least 15 so far There are five at the circles, (E 48 Charlesgate) Another five in the 1999 photo on the pbwiki page (b&w photo all in a row near an overpass) I can not locate them on google earth/map Another five at E 1 Charlesgate (the other street corner down from the circles) Wonder if from the stairs at mothers rest we count the number of lamp posts then dig a number of steps from that post. Example at the 18th lamp post take 12 steps then dig or vice-versa.

jayheedan1 wrote:: How many of the lamp posts are there at Charlesgate Park like the ones in the “circles?” I’ve been going through the threads looking for a count but haven’t come across it, if it’s there. Anyone live in the area that has counted them? I counted at least 15 so far There are five at the circles, (E 48 Charlesgate) Another five in the 1999 photo on the pbwiki page (b&w photo all in a row near an overpass) I can not locate them on google earth/map Another five at E 1 Charlesgate (the other street corner down from the circles) Wonder if from the stairs at mothers rest we count the number of lamp posts then dig a number of steps from that post. Example at the 18th lamp post take 12 steps then dig or vice-versa. From Day 1 I could never accept the Charlesgate "2 C" location. I have always felt that was Kenmore level bad. I hope to be proven wrong, but, c'mon.

I can see the stairs at Mothers rest, coming down them walking straight (back to the stairs facing the water) it over looks the gardens (all the letters are here to see). But from there I’m not convinced of anything. The circles could be an earlier waypoint marker (get of the highway here at Charlesgate, then go to Mothers rest) or could be the last waypoint on a trail from Mothers rest. The lines tie us to Boston via the midnight ride, but the Japanese clues tell us what’s important is the 12, 18 and lamp light. So I tend to think it has at least something to do with light posts.

strike13 wrote:: With regards to the esplanade. There is a perfect fit for "feel at home". The signs on sorrow dr., which are viewable from the esplanade, have read IF YOU LIVED HERE, YOU'D BE HOME NOW. been there since the 60s. https://imgur.com/a/pQ1j1bU But, "if you lived here you'd be home now," specifically means you DON'T live there. So I think it's a 180 from "feel at home"

drunknerds wrote:: But, "if you lived here you'd be home now," specifically means you DON'T live there. So I think it's a 180 from "feel at home" Allow me to add a little context for flavor. The "If You Lived Here... You'd Be Home Now" signs were put up on the Charles River Park apartments back in the 1970's, right at the east end of Storrow Drive. The apartments were built as part of a still hotly-debated urban renewal project which leveled Boston's West End and replaced it with, among other things, a group of apartment blocks that were immediately marketed to doctors at the ever-growing Mass General Hospital next door. Charles River Park apartments is right at the corner where drivers reaching the east end of Storrow Drive are at a stoplight just before the onramps to I-93 north and south (the dreaded Southeast Expressway to the south). Traffic backs up there for *hours*. It's been awful since the 1960s, and the Big Dig did nearly nothing to mitigate it. If you know what you're looking at, the wave pattern on the signs makes it even worse on super-hot summer days with no air conditioning in the car, because they're hung on Charles River Park's private swimming pool. You can see the backs of the top row of cabanas behind the signs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/156936251@N07/ Please view photos and written solution on Flickr. The link is above.There is a lamp post base at 12 plus 18 pavers from the base of the stairs at the WWII Memorial. Walk the edge of the curved sidewalk and then the straight sidewalk. It is under 4 inches of dirt and I believe that is where the casque was buried. When the Korean and Vietnam Memorials were put in I believe they took out the old lamppost and put in a new one at the end of the sidewalk. The site would be about 4 feet off the sidewalk and the cherry tree is nearby. It is a white cherry tree and only blooms in May. Under the dirt is an old conduit. The new conduit to the new lamppost is modern material. The casque could still be there but needs more digging. The best next steps are to check out the Boston Public Library to see if there are photos of the original lamppost. The Historical Society or Green Necklace Society may also have photos taken before 1988 when the two new memorials were added. The cherry tree is significant in that it represents "in truth be free" a nod to George Washington who stayed in the same house at Harvard that Longfellow stayed in years later. "I cannot tell a lie" and ties it to the Paul Revere Poem. Probe around and see what you can find. I am sure it was there but with construction not any more.

elizabethmcfarland wrote:: https://www.flickr.com/photos/156936251@N07/ Please view photos and written solution on Flickr. The link is above.There is a lamp post base at 12 plus 18 pavers from the base of the stairs at the WWII Memorial. Walk the edge of the curved sidewalk and then the straight sidewalk. It is under 4 inches of dirt and I believe that is where the casque was buried. When the Korean and Vietnam Memorials were put in I believe they took out the old lamppost and put in a new one at the end of the sidewalk. The site would be about 4 feet off the sidewalk and the cherry tree is nearby. It is a white cherry tree and only blooms in May. Under the dirt is an old conduit. The new conduit to the new lamppost is modern material. The casque could still be there but needs more digging. The best next steps are to check out the Boston Public Library to see if there are photos of the original lamppost. The Historical Society or Green Necklace Society may also have photos taken before 1988 when the two new memorials were added. The cherry tree is significant in that it represents "in truth be free" a nod to George Washington who stayed in the same house at Harvard that Longfellow stayed in years later. "I cannot tell a lie" and ties it to the Paul Revere Poem. Probe around and see what you can find. I am sure it was there but with construction not any more. Has anything really changed since the first two times you posted this? EDIT: I mean, beside posting it this thread, this time, instead of the image 11 thread...

Mister EZ wrote:: Has anything really changed since the first two times you posted this? EDIT: I mean, beside posting it this thread, this time, instead of the image 11 thread... Right there with you EZ! "Walk the edge of the curved sidewalk and then the straight sidewalk."....where would one come up with these as directions anyway?

I only heard about this last night because of a TV show, but you are all shit and I know where he treasure is. 99% sure. Let me explain it to you dumb shits. . You see, the blue aura is a map....

Merlot Brougham wrote:: I only heard about this last night because of a TV show, but you are all shit and I know where he treasure is. 99% sure. Let me explain it to you dumb shits. . You see, the blue aura is a map.... Down to a 1" x 1" spot....? Me too!!

Mister EZ wrote:: Down to a 1" x 1" spot....? Me too!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAgQiSyjnz8

I wanted to share some information with everyone about the Victory Gardens in the Fens. Many people like to apply the lettered paths of the Gardens to the lines in verse 3 “all the letters - are here to see.” In the past, I have done some volunteer survey work for the Fenway Garden Society that manages the Gardens. A while back, I decided to ask one of the organizers about the history of how the plots and paths were configured. What she explained made me rethink this widely accepted association to the verse. To the best of her recollection, the plots were organized numerically and some by surname. It wasn’t until the late 1980’s and into the 1990’s that the Gardens were cleaned up, organized and the majority of the paths were CONSTRUCTED. The booming economy of the 80’s brought in more donations and public funds to allow for these projects. I checked the available aerial photos of the area and found one from 1978 and another from 1995. When you compare those photos, it’s pretty clear that only a few of the main paths existed in 1978. Even today, it is difficult to see from any distance what letter path you are walking on. Many of the paths have no signage at all, and the ones that are marked have very small tags on the fences that line the paths. I’m sure there will be people who dismiss and disagree with this information, but unless you have other information to the contrary, I am of the belief that my contact is correct. Feel free shoot holes, but I am officially out on all the letters are here to see. Direct link (side by side) https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png

I wanted to share some information with everyone about the Victory Gardens in the Fens. Many people like to apply the lettered paths of the Gardens to the lines in verse 3 “all the letters - are here to see.” In the past, I have done some volunteer survey work for the Fenway Garden Society that manages the Gardens. A while back, I decided to ask one of the organizers about the history of how the plots and paths were configured. What she explained made me rethink this widely accepted association to the verse. To the best of her recollection, the plots were organized numerically and some by surname. It wasn’t until the late 1980’s and into the 1990’s that the Gardens were cleaned up, organized and the majority of the paths were CONSTRUCTED. The booming economy of the 80’s brought in more donations and public funds to allow for these projects. I checked the available aerial photos of the area and found one from 1978 and another from 1995. When you compare those photos, it’s pretty clear that only a few of the main paths existed in 1978. Even today, it is difficult to see from any distance what letter path you are walking on. Many of the paths have no signage at all, and the ones that are marked have very small tags on the fences that line the paths. I’m sure there will be people who dismiss and disagree with this information, but unless you have other information to the contrary, I am of the belief that my contact is correct. Feel free shoot holes, but I am officially out on all the letters are here to see. Direct link (side by side) https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png

My take on "all the letters are here to see," it could work as a clever way to connect two letter-i's.

My take on "all the letters are here to see," it could work as a clever way to connect two letter-i's.

erexere wrote:: My take on "all the letters are here to see," it could work as a clever way to connect two letter-i's. Maybe he was referring to a post office or mail box.

erexere wrote:: My take on "all the letters are here to see," it could work as a clever way to connect two letter-i's. Maybe he was referring to a post office or mail box.

MERLIN wrote:: Maybe he was referring to a post office or mail box. I dont think so. Im thinking more as in seeing "eye to eye".

BINGO wrote:: It wasn’t until the late 1980’s and into the 1990’s that the Gardens were cleaned up, organized and the majority of the paths were CONSTRUCTED. The booming economy of the 80’s brought in more donations and public funds to allow for these projects. well damn.

burnstyle wrote:: well damn. Good post Bingo! I also am one who does not like the Victory Gardens for "all the letters are here to see". Additionally, I am not trying to push this theory, nor do I necessarily feel super strongly about it, but I will repost what I said a few weeks ago, just a different way to look at the line in the verse: In thinking more about the month of this image (as is being discussed in another thread) August, I go back to something I was researching quite a bit this winter. The New England College of Optometry. This is located at 424 beacon street. Founded by a man named AUGUST Klein in 1894. It is the oldest continuously operating college of optometry in the US. In addition to the use of the month of August, it could be used for the line "all the letters are here to see". As that is exactly what you are doing when undergoing an eye exam, looking at letters . I noticed in the past that the New England College of Optometry was discussed, but not in connection with the founder's name, August. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3515916 ... 312!8i6656

burnstyle wrote:: well damn. Good post Bingo! I also am one who does not like the Victory Gardens for "all the letters are here to see". Additionally, I am not trying to push this theory, nor do I necessarily feel super strongly about it, but I will repost what I said a few weeks ago, just a different way to look at the line in the verse: In thinking more about the month of this image (as is being discussed in another thread) August, I go back to something I was researching quite a bit this winter. The New England College of Optometry. This is located at 424 beacon street. Founded by a man named AUGUST Klein in 1894. It is the oldest continuously operating college of optometry in the US. In addition to the use of the month of August, it could be used for the line "all the letters are here to see". As that is exactly what you are doing when undergoing an eye exam, looking at letters. I noticed in the past that the New England College of Optometry was discussed, but not in connection with the founder's name, August. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3515916 ... 312!8i6656

strike13 wrote:: Good post Bingo! I also am one who does not like the Victory Gardens for "all the letters are here to see". Additionally, I am not trying to push this theory, nor do I necessarily feel super strongly about it, but I will repost what I said a few weeks ago, just a different way to look at the line in the verse: In thinking more about the month of this image (as is being discussed in another thread) August, I go back to something I was researching quite a bit this winter. The New England College of Optometry. This is located at 424 beacon street. Founded by a man named AUGUST Klein in 1894. It is the oldest continuously operating college of optometry in the US. In addition to the use of the month of August, it could be used for the line "all the letters are here to see". As that is exactly what you are doing when undergoing an eye exam, looking at letters . I noticed in the past that the New England College of Optometry was discussed, but not in connection with the founder's name, August. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3515916 ... 312!8i6656 great clue. takes us all the way to sunny? LITHUANIA!

strike13 wrote:: Good post Bingo! I also am one who does not like the Victory Gardens for "all the letters are here to see". Additionally, I am not trying to push this theory, nor do I necessarily feel super strongly about it, but I will repost what I said a few weeks ago, just a different way to look at the line in the verse: In thinking more about the month of this image (as is being discussed in another thread) August, I go back to something I was researching quite a bit this winter. The New England College of Optometry. This is located at 424 beacon street. Founded by a man named AUGUST Klein in 1894. It is the oldest continuously operating college of optometry in the US. In addition to the use of the month of August, it could be used for the line "all the letters are here to see". As that is exactly what you are doing when undergoing an eye exam, looking at letters. I noticed in the past that the New England College of Optometry was discussed, but not in connection with the founder's name, August. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3515916 ... 312!8i6656 great clue. takes us all the way to sunny? LITHUANIA!

Fenix wrote:: Have you local Boston folk given much thought to this? At the State House, corner of Beacon and Bowdoin. I know how everybody loves those c's but this is a pretty strong contender for In truth be free. I'm sure it has been discussed in the past. I fully admit that I’ve never given it the attention that it probably deserves. I’ve been there a few times, looked things over and nothing grabbed my attention. So, I moved on. Myself and others in Boston tend to revisit areas regularly just to see if we missed anything and to take another look with fresh eyes. This is definitely a site that deserves another visit.

BINGO wrote:: I fully admit that I’ve never given it the attention that it probably deserves. I’ve been there a few times, looked things over and nothing grabbed my attention. So, I moved on. Myself and others in Boston tend to revisit areas regularly just to see if we missed anything and to take another look with fresh eyes. This is definitely a site that deserves another visit. I'll take a walk over there again on my lunch break this week. I do not believe you can get in that area of the lawn of the statehouse. I tried to get on on the other side of the lawn to see the Horace Mann statue. No luck. I usually dont strike out when i ask for these types of favors haha. I asked some of the guards about it and even tried to get one to come out with me. They are very protective of the lawn area post 9/11 and let no one on it. Nice people though. They brought me to a Horace Mann painting inside instead. Nothing noteworthy there. I'll definitely give it another shot!

Also, Backstop...I'll head over to the fens again soon. It's not an easy lunch break trip for me because I work downtown. Maybe I'll score some sox tix...hoooopefully... and then hit up the fens first! Go Sox!

strike13 wrote:: I'll take a walk over there again on my lunch break this week. I do not believe you can get in that area of the lawn of the statehouse. I tried to get on on the other side of the lawn to see the Horace Mann statue. No luck. I usually dont strike out when i ask for these types of favors haha. I asked some of the guards about it and even tried to get one to come out with me. They are very protective of the lawn area post 9/11 and let no one on it. Nice people though. They brought me to a Horace Mann painting inside instead. Nothing noteworthy there. I'll definitely give it another shot! thats the one across from the commons right? i could not access it either when i was there...was wondering what they said lol

Fenix wrote:: What I am interested in understanding from Strike and Bingo, or any other locals, is what are the other top options for In truth, be free matches. I cannot imagine that line being matched to something that is not close to the final location. I'm not saying the casque is on the state house lawn but if the Dyer statue is correct, then it is likely nearby. One of the popular theories is the song Ode on Washington’s Birthday, one line says “let our land in truth be free.” Two lines later, the lyric is “on to victory”. Many people believe that this is a direction to go to the Victory Gardens at the Fens. I’m not really a huge supporter of this theory. But, my opinion changes regularly about almost everything Boston related. I’ve knocked around a theory that involves the Freedom Trail through Boston. It is a historical walking tour of the cities most notable landmarks. A few of the lines in the verse can be applied to stops along the trail. (Paul Revere’s home, the Old North Church, the Old State House and even the statue of Washington at the entrance of the Public Gardens.) I may not be the biggest fan of the walking path solutions to these puzzles, but you can make the Freedom Trail fit verse 3 if you try hard enough.

Fenix wrote:: Have you found anything that ties directly to truth? The Dyer statue is near the beginning of the trail at the Boston Common/State House. Also, the statue of George Washington is at the Boston Public Gardens which is next to the Boston Common. Other than that, I got squat for in truth be free. Edit: One other thing that I’ve seen and heard discussed is that all of the public libraries in Boston have the motto “Free to all” engraved into the doorway. I personally know of 2 that have it, but I can’t be sure that they all do. It’s usually a point made by the Copley and BPL theorists out there. It seems to be missing the “in truth” part.

BINGO wrote:: The Dyer statue is near the beginning of the trail at the Boston Common/State House. Also, the statue of George Washington is at the Boston Public Gardens which is next to the Boston Common. Other than that, I got squat for in truth be free. Edit: One other thing that I’ve seen and heard discussed is that all of the public libraries in Boston have the motto “Free to all” engraved into the doorway. I personally know of 2 that have it, but I can’t be sure that they all do. It’s usually a point made by the Copley and BPL theorists out there. It seems to be missing the “in truth” part. How about Sojourner Truth, born Isabella Baumfree. She is connected to the Charles Street Meeting House at 70 Charles Street. https://www.biography.com/people/sojour ... th-9511284

strike13 wrote:: Also, Backstop...I'll head over to the fens again soon. It's not an easy lunch break trip for me because I work downtown. Maybe I'll score some sox tix...hoooopefully... and then hit up the fens first! Go Sox! Sounds great Strike, hopefully you can get your World Series tix. Our Cincinnati boy saved the day and ended the game with a beautiful diving catch in game 4 last night. Andrew has been in my building before and he also played against my son and our Summer team as well. He just keeps getting better.

gManTexas wrote:: How about Sojourner Truth, born Isabella Baumfree. She is connected to the Charles Street Meeting House at 70 Charles Street. https://www.biography.com/people/sojour ... th-9511284 Also there is Veritas for Harvard. Additionally, I did like someone's theory from a long time ago, possibly it was 421 or Xie. They were talking about a spot on the Esplanade which is directly across from the Athenaeum in Cambridge and topped with a statue of Greek goddess Athena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenaeum_Press Hmmm...Press...alll the letters are here to see This can be viewed from the river, very near to the Longfellow bridge. I do not know much about Greek gods/goddesses, but i have seen mixed info that she is the goddess of truth. Also there is a building called the Green Tower right there. As with Bingo, my thoughts and opinions change on the daily with regards to Boston. I still like the esplanade for all of this, in so many ways. But brings me further from the newly found info of the translated Japanese words that were selected, which to me, scream Fenway. Go Sox! PS - 3 of the 4 teams left in the playoffs are casque cities...

I kinda like the Freedom Trail idea, but I dont want to change my views about Charlesgate, which remains a hopeful answer to this mystery. So much still seems uncertain to me.

erexere wrote:: I kinda like the Freedom Trail idea, but I dont want to change my views about Charlesgate, which remains a hopeful answer to this mystery. So much still seems uncertain to me. What is perplexing, although I don't know how much stock to place on it, are the Japanese hints that claims that any clue would give away the puzzle for Verse 3. Is it really that simple?

gManTexas wrote:: What is perplexing, although I don't know how much stock to place on it, are the Japanese hints that claims that any clue would give away the puzzle for Verse 3. Is it really that simple? If so, the word coliseum in the verse heavily narrows down the reasonable search areas. Fenway Park is probably the most recognizable and the original Boston Garden would have been another major attraction. To me, any other “coliseum” in and around Boston pales in comparison to those two examples.

BINGO wrote:: If so, the word coliseum in the verse heavily narrows down the reasonable search areas. Fenway Park is probably the most recognizable and the original Boston Garden would have been another major attraction. To me, any other “coliseum” in and around Boston pales in comparison to those two examples. Well spoke sir.

What is perplexing, although I don't know how much stock to place on it, are the Japanese hints that claims that any clue would give away the puzzle for Verse 3. Is it really that simple?[/quote] If so, the word coliseum in the verse heavily narrows down the reasonable search areas. Fenway Park is probably the most recognizable and the original Boston Garden would have been another major attraction. To me, any other “coliseum” in and around Boston pales in comparison to those two examples.[/quote] Well spoke sir.[/quote] Especially with metal walls, green tower of lights...BP seemed to use baseball as a recurring theme ...why not use America's most beloved ballpark!? With that being said...GO SOX!!!!!!

gManTexas wrote:: What is perplexing, although I don't know how much stock to place on it, are the Japanese hints that claims that any clue would give away the puzzle for Verse 3. Is it really that simple? BINGO wrote:: If so, the word coliseum in the verse heavily narrows down the reasonable search areas. Fenway Park is probably the most recognizable and the original Boston Garden would have been another major attraction. To me, any other “coliseum” in and around Boston pales in comparison to those two examples. strike13 wrote:: Especially with metal walls, green tower of lights...BP seemed to use baseball as a recurring theme ...why not use America's most beloved ballpark!? With that being said...GO SOX!!!!!! Crazy to think he was not a Yankees fan, although I think he had a soft spot for the Dodgers, being from Brooklyn and all.

Fenix wrote:: Didn't most of the Brooklyn Dodger fans become transition to Mets fans due to the deep Yankee hate? That's a great question for the locals.

Stopped by Mary Dyer today. Turns out you can get to that side of the statehouse, it's not really a lawn over there. A walkway. Was trying really hard to make something from this, even looking at the surrounding buildings. I took these 3 pics https://imgur.com/a/wDv3LkH

I stopped by there today as well. Here are a few other photos that I took of things in the general area. Strike’s photos show everything the statue has to offer. A lamp on the wall directly behind the Dyer statue. (I believe there are 3 on that wall.) https://i.imgur.com/QSX5bUF.jpg A bird statue at the back courtyard of the State House. (Also behind the Dyer statue) https://i.imgur.com/WtEXo3k.jpg Just a picture for comedic purposes. This entrance is located to the left of the Dyer statue. (There have been numerous unsuccessful protests trying to have the name changed.) Mr. Hooker was an actual General... https://i.imgur.com/SeRnLEk.jpg In all, I dont see any earth shattering image matches in the area. I would be much more excited if the words on the statue were an exact match to the verse. Or, if we could find a legeater level image match somewhere close by.

Alright secret lovers, I've been making some real headway on this verse: All the letters are here to see "All the letters" is the alphabet. Where do you see the alphabet? Children's television shows. So I did some research and found out that Preiss worked on some children's show called, "Sesame Street." I watched a few clips on Youtube, and it's apparently about some mentally ill/challenged muppets living in a poor, run-down neighborhood. I did some Googling, and Boston has a large section of low-income housing, so we know we're in the right city. here's where it gets interesting: This is the logo for Sesame Street: "All the letters are here to see..." Check out that trio of letters on the top: CTW. Now move the C to the end: TWC TWC ... ... Do you see it yet? TW(O) C . All the letters are here "Two C" He has incorporated both a hom*nym puzzle and a word scramble puzzle in the very same clue ! He wants us to check out the 2C area of Charlesgate, one of the most popular sections, I believe first discovered by erexere! It's right there, in one line with two clues, both pointing right at 2C! That's not all that's hidden there. Rearrange CTW again: WCT ... Pronounce it aloud like it's a word... ... ... Do you hear it yet? Wicket! As in "wicket awesome," a popular Bostonian saying that probably refers to a love for croquet or cricket or something! More associations: - There is a muppet named Polly Darton... The woman in image 11 looks like a brunette Dolly Parton! - A lot of Bostonians look a lot like Muppets! It's there, we just have to keep tracking all the dig spots until some blind pig (it could be you, it could be me) sniffs out the treasure.... Do you smell it yet? I can feel it: It's so close I can taste! I'm currently scouring archived historical photos to see if there is a garbage can or a bird's nest that was there in 1980 which would pinpoint a dig spot. Wish me luck!

drunknerds wrote:: Alright secret lovers, I've been making some real headway on this verse: All the letters are here to see "All the letters" is the alphabet. Where do you see the alphabet? Children's television shows. So I did some research and found out that Preiss worked on some children's show called, "Sesame Street." I watched a few clips on Youtube, and it's apparently about some mentally ill/challenged muppets living in a poor, run-down neighborhood. I did some Googling, and Boston has a large section of low-income housing, so we know we're in the right city. here's where it gets interesting: This is the logo for Sesame Street: "All the letters are here to see..." Check out that trio of letters on the top: CTW. Now move the C to the end: TWC TWC ... ... Do you see it yet? TW(O) C . All the letters are here "Two C" He has incorporated both a hom*nym puzzle and a word scramble puzzle in the very same clue ! He wants us to check out the 2C area of Charlesgate, one of the most popular sections, I believe first discovered by erexere! It's right there, in one line with two clues, both pointing right at 2C! That's not all that's hidden there. Rearrange CTW again: WCT ... Pronounce it aloud like it's a word... ... ... Do you hear it yet? Wicket! As in "wicket awesome," a popular Bostonian saying that probably refers to a love for croquet or cricket or something! More associations: - There is a muppet named Polly Darton... The woman in image 11 looks like a brunette Dolly Parton! - A lot of Bostonians look a lot like Muppets! It's there, we just have to keep tracking all the dig spots until some blind pig (it could be you, it could be me) sniffs out the treasure.... Do you smell it yet? I can feel it: It's so close I can taste! I'm currently scouring archived historical photos to see if there is a garbage can or a bird's nest that was there in 1980 which would pinpoint a dig spot. Wish me luck! I already explained this much better, you ignoramus. Everyone knows it's sesame seeds which makes you think of McDonald's and I already proved this verse is about Canadian prime minister John McDonald. But that's just a very, extremely specific connection to put you on the opposite side of town from where I already proved it was, but I already explained that too, dummy. That said, welcome to q4t! Really enjoying your fresh new perspective which is exactly what this hunt needs. Don't listen to people who actually read threads or understand well-established mechanisms, just pick a random city and then put together some things out of whole cloth. Anyway, I need to get back to the St. Louis thread. Have fun floundering around here, amateurs.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: I already explained this much better, you ignoramus. Everyone knows it's sesame seeds which makes you think of McDonald's and I already proved this verse is about Canadian prime minister John McDonald. But that's just a very, extremely specific connection to put you on the opposite side of town from where I already proved it was, but I already explained that too, dummy. That said, welcome to q4t! Really enjoying your fresh new perspective which is exactly what this hunt needs. Thanks! Personally, I think Preiss threw in the sesame seed connection to mislead solvers and point them in the wrong direction, otherwise this puzzle would be too eay.

Has anyone ever tried to play with the periodic table for clues? Because of the Japanese translation hint, it really makes me think that same kind of cipher is needed that would immediately unravel the verse (hence he could give no clues). Anyways back to the periodic table, When working with Thucydides and Xenophon, I lean more and more towards thinking those stand for something else. Played with T and X for awhile, which could mean Boston's T and a railroad, or Texas. But if you add the second letters Th and Xe, Xe is Xenon on the periodic table. It's also right next to "steps" of sort as it is drawn on some tables. And then of course "metal" walls, "all the letters are here to see". A cipher playing with the periodic table would be pretty cool. I haven't gotten anywhere further, but if someone is interested and wants to put a second pair of eyes on it, please feel free. I've just never liked the Boston library answer for the names. There's so many other names, it's just way to open ended for my liking. The ONLY other places I've seen those names carved is next to the Cleaveland spot (very ironic) and Thucydides on Little Rock library, but that's too new. Those just HAVE to be codes for something...but what? It will haunt me for all my years, as it has the past year :-)

danielrisk wrote:: Has anyone ever tried to play with the periodic table for clues? Because of the Japanese translation hint, it really makes me think that same kind of cipher is needed that would immediately unravel the verse (hence he could give no clues). Anyways back to the periodic table, When working with Thucydides and Xenophon, I lean more and more towards thinking those stand for something else. Played with T and X for awhile, which could mean Boston's T and a railroad, or Texas. But if you add the second letters Th and Xe, Xe is Xenon on the periodic table. It's also right next to "steps" of sort as it is drawn on some tables. And then of course "metal" walls, "all the letters are here to see". A cipher playing with the periodic table would be pretty cool. I haven't gotten anywhere further, but if someone is interested and wants to put a second pair of eyes on it, please feel free. I've just never liked the Boston library answer for the names. There's so many other names, it's just way to open ended for my liking. The ONLY other places I've seen those names carved is next to the Cleaveland spot (very ironic) and Thucydides on Little Rock library, but that's too new. Those just HAVE to be codes for something...but what? It will haunt me for all my years, as it has the past year :-) [EDIT: I realize the top posts on this page of the thread are my old goon comrade drunknerds and I just funning around. I'm giving him some shit in the spirit of his post. All theories and snide remarks in my post were 100% in jest. More casual readers or those new to the forum might be confused, so I want to point that out and mention what I say below is a serious post. Sorry I have to add the disclaimer, but these are the times we post in now] I'm not sure it MUST be a code, but I have actually thought about both theories you mention and was never really able to figure anything out along those deeper lines. I would inevitably be forced to draw conclusions upon conclusions and it would implode from there. I tend to err on the side of simplicity, but I also agree with what you say about the BPL carvings to be 'the best we've had' for a long time. I never liked having to use a figurative "north" to explain that. I suppose I could have missed something that satisfies my concern there, so if I did, please feel free to post a link to that (Not the Walpole quote either, that's borderline Kenmore explanation for me (double parenthesis shoutout to burnstyle)). We know his directions in the Cleveland verse weren't exactly precise either, though, so know knows. Many people have spent longer on Boston than I have, I freely admit that. I just always got the feeling most theories start with "We have Thucydides and Xenophon on the library, then *abracadabra*, we end up in this other part of Boston" to continue with where the given theory wants you to wind up. Liked your post and the angle you took to look at it, so I wanted to thank you for throwing that out there. I've looked at those connections before and was never able to come up with anything worthy of mentioning, but that doesn't mean a thing. You asked, though.

If someone decides to use the Walpole quote to land in Boston, that seems reasonable to me. Boston is North of NY and Walpole has Boston ties, so it fits. (I’m not implying this is the correct use, but it isn’t that much of a stretch.) What bothers me is most people will use that quote and then immediately start their Boston journey at the Library. Is it really necessary to double down on the use of the T & X portion of the verse? You already got to Boston via Walpole. The names on the library wall become unnecessary and potentially coincidental. Much like the batch of painful explanations that show how Thucydides’ name is somehow North of Xenophon’s name on the wall when it clearly isn’t.

BINGO wrote:: If someone decides to use the Walpole quote to land in Boston, that seems reasonable to me. Boston is North of NY and Walpole has Boston ties, so it fits. (I’m not implying this is the correct use, but it isn’t that much of a stretch.) What bothers me is most people will use that quote and then immediately start their Boston journey at the Library. Is it really necessary to double down on the use of the T & X portion of the verse? You already got to Boston via Walpole. The names on the library wall become unnecessary and potentially coincidental. Much like the batch of painful explanations that show how Thucydides’ name is somehow North of Xenophon’s name on the wall when it clearly isn’t. The Library seems to fit the puzzle: "Aligning the southern edge of Copley Square is McKim, Mead & White’s Boston Public Library. At its opening in 1895 the Renaissance Revival building was proclaimed a “palace to the people.” The building is ornamented by many lavish embellishments including monumental inscriptions, sculpture, murals, and light fixtures. Nestled into the building’s core is an open-air courtyard closely based on that of the sixteenth-century Palazzo della Cancelleria in Rome. Designed in the manner of a Renaissance cloister, the courtyard is surrounded by an arcaded gallery. In the middle is a small plaza with a square fountain basin. At the center of the basin is Frederick William Macmonnies’ "Dancing Bacchante and Infant Faun" atop a granite plinth, animated by a circle of water jets." https://tclf.org/landscapes/boston-publ ... -courtyard

danielrisk wrote:: ... Xenophon ... My 1st look and 1st post on this thread so be gentle! Xeno-phon literally means phonetically sounds like Xeno. Anyone been to planet Xenu?!

gManTexas wrote:: The Library seems to fit the puzzle: "Aligning the southern edge of Copley Square is McKim, Mead & White’s Boston Public Library. At its opening in 1895 the Renaissance Revival building was proclaimed a “palace to the people.” The building is ornamented by many lavish embellishments including monumental inscriptions, sculpture, murals, and light fixtures. Nestled into the building’s core is an open-air courtyard closely based on that of the sixteenth-century Palazzo della Cancelleria in Rome. Designed in the manner of a Renaissance cloister, the courtyard is surrounded by an arcaded gallery. In the middle is a small plaza with a square fountain basin. At the center of the basin is Frederick William Macmonnies’ "Dancing Bacchante and Infant Faun" atop a granite plinth, animated by a circle of water jets." https://tclf.org/landscapes/boston-publ ... -courtyard How do you get to the Library to begin with? Do you have a QUALITY image match? Anything that is beyond dispute? What part of the verse gets you to the Library? The T&X quote and names on the wall? If so, I've never heard a reasonable explanation why T is North of X on the building. Most of the accepted explanations are crap, plain and simple. Is it the Romanesque style of the building? The city and surrounding towns are rich with those types of buildings. They can be found everywhere. Not to mention, art, literature and sculptures are abundant in every city with a cultural history. Boston is no exception. Is it the courtyard? For me, the courtyard is out for a few reasons. The original statue from your article was removed just a few years after it was displayed because of the unsavory image that it portrayed. The courtyard has undergone multiple renovations and the statue that stands there now is a replica replaced during one of those renovations. One happened just before the book was published and another in the 1990's. At the end of 1980, the whole area was boarded up. (See pic) Currently, there is a plaque on the wall inside the courtyard that explains how it was renovated again in the 1990's with money that was donated in honor of a benefactor's wife or husband. My point is, we don't have to believe or be influenced by everything the wiki tells us. I think this hunt has turned into people taking a preconceived location and using the piss poor wiki explanations of clues to help prove their case. This hasn't worked for a long time and I highly doubt that it will start to pay dividends any time soon.

BINGO wrote:: How do you get to the Library to begin with? Do you have a QUALITY image match? Anything that is beyond dispute? What part of the verse gets you to the Library? The T&X quote and names on the wall? If so, I've never heard a reasonable explanation why T is North of X on the building. Most of the accepted explanations are crap, plain and simple. Is it the Romanesque style of the building? The city and surrounding towns are rich with those types of buildings. They can be found everywhere. Not to mention, art, literature and sculptures are abundant in every city with a cultural history. Boston is no exception. Is it the courtyard? For me, the courtyard is out for a few reasons. The original statue from your article was removed just a few years after it was displayed because of the unsavory image that it portrayed. The courtyard has undergone multiple renovations and the statue that stands there now is a replica replaced during one of those renovations. One happened just before the book was published and another in the 1990's. At the end of 1980, the whole area was boarded up. (See pic) Currently, there is a plaque on the wall inside the courtyard that explains how it was renovated again in the 1990's with money that was donated in honor of a benefactor's wife or husband. My point is, we don't have to believe or be influenced by everything the wiki tells us. I think this hunt has turned into people taking a preconceived location and using the piss poor wiki explanations of clues to help prove their case. This hasn't worked for a long time and I highly doubt that it will start to pay dividends any time soon. I hear what you are saying and I agree to certain extent. I think most of the hunts begin at Libraries. In that time period, it is where you would go to research the puzzle, and they are Free to All. My motivation is not because of the Wiki site, in fact, most of the stuff on there is wrong in my opinion. Unless there is a better option for T&X out there, it seems reasonable that the library is a good landmark. Let's look at it the other way, since the question is "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon". Since it is not on the library wall, we would be instructed to go in the opposite direction. If we consider that Walpole is the source of "his" direction, being in the East, this leads us West, toward the Fens area. Having said that, I think that T&X probably have some other meaning as well, since most of the clues come in two's. The question to be answered is what is the second clue?

gManTexas wrote:: I hear what you are saying and I agree to certain extent. I think most of the hunts begin at Libraries. In that time period, it is where you would go to research the puzzle, and they are Free to All. My motivation is not because of the Wiki site, in fact, most of the stuff on there is wrong in my opinion. Unless there is a better option for T&X out there, it seems reasonable that the library is a good landmark. Let's look at it the other way, since the question is "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon". Since it is not on the library wall, we would be instructed to go in the opposite direction. If we consider that Walpole is the source of "his" direction, being in the East, this leads us West, toward the Fens area. Having said that, I think that T&X probably have some other meaning as well, since most of the clues come in two's. The question to be answered is what is the second clue? I like T for just the T and X maybe for Exeter St. Also...THE LENOX hotel...signs just says THE LENOX - starts w T ends w X. T is north of X in that case. I dont love the library. I feel like there are much better explanations for T and X....if even just to get you to the small city of Boston w that letter.

T&X are almost a moot point since we know the casque is somewhere in Boston. I'm not sure how much value T&X adds to solving this puzzle. I'm in the camp that you can probably solve these with only 80% of the clues figured out.

BINGO wrote:: How do you get to the Library to begin with? Do you have a QUALITY image match? Anything that is beyond dispute? What part of the verse gets you to the Library? The T&X quote and names on the wall? If so, I've never heard a reasonable explanation why T is North of X on the building. Most of the accepted explanations are crap, plain and simple. Is it the Romanesque style of the building? The city and surrounding towns are rich with those types of buildings. They can be found everywhere. Not to mention, art, literature and sculptures are abundant in every city with a cultural history. Boston is no exception. Is it the courtyard? For me, the courtyard is out for a few reasons. The original statue from your article was removed just a few years after it was displayed because of the unsavory image that it portrayed. The courtyard has undergone multiple renovations and the statue that stands there now is a replica replaced during one of those renovations. One happened just before the book was published and another in the 1990's. At the end of 1980, the whole area was boarded up. (See pic) Currently, there is a plaque on the wall inside the courtyard that explains how it was renovated again in the 1990's with money that was donated in honor of a benefactor's wife or husband. My point is, we don't have to believe or be influenced by everything the wiki tells us. I think this hunt has turned into people taking a preconceived location and using the piss poor wiki explanations of clues to help prove their case. This hasn't worked for a long time and I highly doubt that it will start to pay dividends any time soon. I hope you charge your phone soon...you're getting into the danger zone

The "Walpole is west" part really baffles me. 1. Why introduce another direction and character. We already have two characters (X and T) and a direction (North). 2. Preiss had a master's degree in communications. While not outside the realm of possibility, I just can't see someone that obsessed with words using a pronoun which refers to an antecedcent that's not the most recent applicable noun. It's a staple of grammar. So "take five steps in his direction" would have to refer to Xenophon, as it is the most recently used masculine name before the pronoun. So five steps south. From what though? The library? If so, that's a great clue but five steps from the library gets us... nowhere really?

drunknerds wrote:: The "Walpole is west" part really baffles me. 1. Why introduce another direction and character. We already have two characters (X and T) and a direction (North). 2. Preiss had a master's degree in communications. While not outside the realm of possibility, I just can't see someone that obsessed with words using a pronoun which refers to an antecedcent that's not the most recent applicable noun. It's a staple of grammar. So "take five steps in his direction" would have to refer to Xenophon, as it is the most recently used masculine name before the pronoun. So five steps south. From what though? The library? If so, that's a great clue but five steps from the library gets us... nowhere really?

Also, if you mention two guys and then use the word "his" you'd better be referring to one of those two guys. Otherwise it's not a puzzle, it's just lying. Let me check satellite photos and report back...

drunknerds wrote:: The "Walpole is west" part really baffles me. 1. Why introduce another direction and character. We already have two characters (X and T) and a direction (North). 2. Preiss had a master's degree in communications. While not outside the realm of possibility, I just can't see someone that obsessed with words using a pronoun which refers to an antecedcent that's not the most recent applicable noun. It's a staple of grammar. So "take five steps in his direction" would have to refer to Xenophon, as it is the most recently used masculine name before the pronoun. So five steps south. From what though? The library? If so, that's a great clue but five steps from the library gets us... nowhere really? You're the one who has said that BP was a crappy puzzle maker My guess is that he was warping the words because it had to fit whatever other 2nd meaning to the clue.

I’m not sure how Horace Walpole’s letter to Horace Mann relates to Horace Greeley’s “Go West, young man”. I guess if you mix up a bunch of Horasses and the word man a couple times, you can get anywhere you want.

gManTexas wrote:: You're the one who has said that BP was a crappy puzzle maker My guess is that he was warping the words because it had to fit whatever other 2nd meaning to the clue. True, but he was particularly choosy about words. It would be cool if there were five steps leading south from the library wall with the words. Today there are six though, not sure how it looked in 1980 Edit: Just verified, it's had 6 steps for a long long time.

And, if I'm going to get literal, why not take it all the way: Since T is not north of X on the library wall, we shouldn't take five steps in his direction. Heck, I can do that at home!

The way I see it, BPL is a nonstarter. I agree that 'his' direction is Xenophon, south of Thucydides. One reason Preiss may have chosen those names is to represent T and X as a setting hint for taxes, which gels with Boston's history. Another place in the verse which may help direct us south is "your back to the stairs", which could be the stairs of the Old North Church tower as a generalized implication having to do with the signal light used to communicate with Paul Revere -one if by land and two if by sea. I'm not suggesting we physically take a position off the Old North Church. Could be one of those light posts in the Charlesgate is playing out it's message to locate the casque by going south from it's position. Where those five steps begin and end is still a matter of finding the right cross references.

erexere wrote:: The way I see it, BPL is a nonstarter. erexere wrote:: Another place in the verse which may help direct us south is "your back to the stairs" I like this... I think. By "nonstarter," do you mean "just a popular landmark Preiss used to get people on board with the general area?" Because I can get on board with that. Unless it's a final dig spot indicator (which I think it is, all thanks to your finding the 2C area. So the stairs have to be the stairs of the emergency metro exit), "your back to the stairs" is useless. Everywhere has stairs. Every house, library, church, etc. has stairs. Go anywhere in any city and you can see some stairs nearby. It's like "White house close at hand," in that unless there is actual quoted words nearby (like a plaque saying "Paul Revere had his back to the stairs") it can only be used as meaningless confirmation of whatever solution we want. It's like "brush" in the Chicago verse. Hey there's brush anywhere there is bushes or trees... that seems like a wide range of options. Then we find out it had nothing to do with bushes or trees, it's art, which is also everywhere. ... ... ... Except Antarctica.

In the Cleveland puzzle we had the names Socrates, Pindar, Apelles in the verse and they were carved into the Pylon Wall. No one debates the validity of this reference. Why should we hate on the fact that the names Thucydides and Xenophon are carved on the wall of the BPL? Or is this a question of what to do after we find those names? By the way, the word Free appears on the Sir Henry Vane statue in the entry to the library, and the word Truth appears on the bronze doors as you enter the library. Not to mention the slogan "Free to all" on the front of the building.

gManTexas wrote:: In the Cleveland puzzle we had the names Socrates, Pindar, Apelles in the verse and they were carved into the Pylon Wall. No one debates the validity of this reference. Why should we hate on the fact that the names Thucydides and Xenophon are carved on the wall of the BPL? Or is this a question of what to do after we find those names? By the way, the word Free appears on the Sir Henry Vane statue in the entry to the library, and the word Truth appears on the bronze doors as you enter the library. Not to mention the slogan "Free to all" on the front of the building. I like this. And weren't Mozart and Beethoven just two among many names carved on the wall? I think this has merit, can you link me a picture of the bronze doors? I'm googling around but can't find anything

drunknerds wrote:: I like this. And weren't Mozart and Beethoven just two among many names carved on the wall? I think this has merit, can you link me a picture of the bronze doors? I'm googling around but can't find anything Boston Public Library hxxp://www.cryan.com/daily/20170720.jspBronze Doors

Socrates, Pindar and Apelles are also carved into the wall at the BPL. Thucydides and Xenophon are also on the Cleveland wall. Using this logic, the Cleveland verse could have been erroneously applied to the Boston puzzle and specifically the library. And vice versa. The huge difference is IMAGE CONFIRMERS that are all around the Gardens in Cleveland telling searchers that they are in the right spot. Please, explain 1 good image confirmer near the BPL. Something close to the quality found in Cleveland. Relentless historical research and endless connecting of famous and historically important people is not a substitute for image confirmers. Crickets...

gManTexas wrote:: In the Cleveland puzzle we had the names Socrates, Pindar, Apelles in the verse and they were carved into the Pylon Wall. No one debates the validity of this reference. Why should we hate on the fact that the names Thucydides and Xenophon are carved on the wall of the BPL? Or is this a question of what to do after we find those names? By the way, the word Free appears on the Sir Henry Vane statue in the entry to the library, and the word Truth appears on the bronze doors as you enter the library. Not to mention the slogan "Free to all" on the front of the building. I'm not hating on BPL, I just don't see a point in to conform to something which may serve no purpose. I have a belief about the wall in Cleveland that the names were chosen for a specific reason, serving an acrostic for S P A, because it fits nicely with the aquamarine description in the LotJ, "Nymphs of Hellas, springwater clear". I like the usage of Thucydides and Xenophon as an acrostic as well, T_X for "TAX", which seems distinctly harder to pick out than the Cleveland example. I use this to consider the supporting character of the Tax Burden in the field guide portion which was drawn by JJP.

BINGO wrote:: Socrates, Pindar and Apelles are also carved into the wall at the BPL. Thucydides and Xenophon are also on the Cleveland wall. Using this logic, the Cleveland verse could have been erroneously applied to the Boston puzzle and specifically the library. And vice versa. The huge difference is IMAGE CONFIRMERS that are all around the Gardens in Cleveland telling searchers that they are in the right spot. Please, explain 1 good image confirmer near the BPL. Something close to the quality found in Cleveland. Relentless historical research and endless connecting of famous and historically important people is not a substitute for image confirmers. Crickets... Doubling down...let's explain one solid, indisputable image confirmer for anything boston in image 11.

BINGO wrote:: Socrates, Pindar and Apelles are also carved into the wall at the BPL. Thucydides and Xenophon are also on the Cleveland wall. Using this logic, the Cleveland verse could have been erroneously applied to the Boston puzzle and specifically the library. And vice versa. The huge difference is IMAGE CONFIRMERS that are all around the Gardens in Cleveland telling searchers that they are in the right spot. Please, explain 1 good image confirmer near the BPL. Something close to the quality found in Cleveland. Relentless historical research and endless connecting of famous and historically important people is not a substitute for image confirmers. Crickets... It is my opinion that the Cleveland and Chicago images were the two most visual puzzles of the twelve. This is also the problem with this hunt in that lots of people want to apply the same rules to the remaining images. If it was that easy, and there were straightforward visual images confirmers, I would think that many more of these would have been solved and dug up by now.

I figure it's OK to draw some parallels but be careful when you draw too many and also don't rely too heavily on them.

gManTexas wrote:: It is my opinion that the Cleveland and Chicago images were the two most visual puzzles of the twelve. This is also the problem with this hunt in that lots of people want to apply the same rules to the remaining images. If it was that easy, and there were straightforward visual images confirmers, I would think that many more of these would have been solved and dug up by now. Also, to play devil's advocate to myself... the shitty thing is, probably with both Chicago and Cleveland...it is not like in the Chicago fence post in the pic was automatically recognizable as an image confirmer until you were there, via the verse. Same with Cleveland, yeah it says"seek the columns" but it is not like those columns in that garden were super well known to Cleveland as in..."this is definitely where the columns are"...it wasn't until you got there, again via the verse, did you know, and see. With that being said, maybe no one has gotten to where we need to be yet, with regards to Boston, otherwise there would be more solid matches?

strike13 wrote:: Also, to play devil's advocate to myself... the shitty thing is, probably with both Chicago and Cleveland...it is not like in the Chicago fence post in the pic was automatically recognizable as an image confirmer until you were there, via the verse. Same with Cleveland, yeah it says"seek the columns" but it is not like those columns in that garden were super well known to Cleveland as in..."these are definitely where the columns are"...it wasn't until you got there, again via the verse, did you know, and see. With that being said, maybe no one has gotten to where we need to be yet, with regards to Boston, otherwise there would be more sold matches? That is possible. I had the pleasure of going to Cleveland recently and I did a deep dive into that puzzle. I saw a lot of stuff that people have either missed or just not discussed. When you are walking the pathof the verse, which is not 100% straightforward, you come upon the columns if you are on Upper East Blvd. If we are following the intended path to the Italian Gardens first to see the fountains, then you enter the Greek Gardens from the side and wind up in between the Pylon Wall and the columns. But yes, it is an a-ha moment.

strike13 wrote:: maybe no one has gotten to where we need to be yet, with regards to Boston, otherwise there would be more solid matches? This could be a very good possibility. I strongly believe that if you are in the correct area, the image and the verse will make sense. Boston has its fair share of solves. Some spots have good image matches that are difficult to line up with the verse. Some follow the verse perfectly but have no good image matches. So far, all have yielded the same results. It is very possible that we just havent stumbled upon the the correct spot. Yet... On a somewhat related note: Does anyone think that Egbert (hopefully he can answer this) would have driven to Cleveland without seeing a picture of the wall? Would Johann’s internet search that resulted in finding Socrates, Pindar and Apelles inscribed on the wall at the cultural gardens been enough to take that trip? If it was, he could have easily been driving to the Boston Public Library because it too shares those same names. My gut tells me no, but I could be wrong. The kids in Chicago had the M&B clue completely wrong. It didn’t matter because of one very important thing. They were applying the wrong verse interpretation to the Bowman statue which is obviously a very important part of the image. This led them to the next series of correct verse and image interpretations. Everyone can argue all day long about how to apply the verse and image to a particular site. We are all free to draw our own conclusions of what is more important, the verse or the image. My theory stands, without strong connections to both, you are just pissing into the wind.

BINGO wrote:: Socrates, Pindar and Apelles are also carved into the wall at the BPL. Thucydides and Xenophon are also on the Cleveland wall. Using this logic, the Cleveland verse could have been erroneously applied to the Boston puzzle and specifically the library. And vice versa. The huge difference is IMAGE CONFIRMERS that are all around the Gardens in Cleveland telling searchers that they are in the right spot. Please, explain 1 good image confirmer near the BPL. Something close to the quality found in Cleveland. Relentless historical research and endless connecting of famous and historically important people is not a substitute for image confirmers. Crickets... BINGO, I think the first confirmer, although not in the Image is this part of the verse: Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight The historic significance of Paul Revere's historical ride is the Boston confirmer. Now, how do we get to BPL from there with the more limited resources of BP's era? There was no internet so I would have done what I did in college, go to the Library and look up info. In this case though, the information (their Names) is actually ON the library.

MrBackstop wrote:: BINGO, I think the first confirmer, although not in the Image is this part of the verse: Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight The historic significance of Paul Revere's historical ride is the Boston confirmer. Now, how do we get to BPL from there with the more limited resources of BP's era? There was no internet so I would have done what I did in college, go to the Library and look up info. In this case though, the information (their Names) is actually ON the library. I don’t disagree with anything you mentioned here. Another thing that wasn’t available to Preiss or searchers from the time period is the wiki site and its solutions. As a college student who finds the names on the wall while doing research for this puzzle, please explain how you get anywhere from the Library by using the verse. If you buy into the wiki explanations, I simply disagree with you. They don’t make sense. There is no clear direction. Many people think these puzzles are a walking tour and the iconic image is the usual starting point. Many people believe the iconic image is the Kelleher Rose Garden. Why do most people believe the starting point is the library? Shouldn’t it be the rose garden? (Seems like a more centrally located place when thinking about many of the proposed dig sites) Or is it because the names on the BPL wall match the first lines of the verse? Are we really trying a bit too hard to substitute 5 bus stops, 5 T-stops, 5 named streets, for 5 steps outlined in the wiki? If you start at the library, you can molest the number 5 and the direction of travel enough to get anywhere you like in the city of Boston. I just don’t buy any of it. My opinion, feel free to draw your own or let the wiki make one up for everyone.

I'm willing to listen to alternatives to the library. BINGO, what's your thoughts?

I just want to throw this out there, in my recent searches I actually discovered that Thucydides is also on the wall of the Brooklyn Museum, right at the edge of Prospect Park. To be fair, I can't find a clear fit for Xenophon nearby. But, Thucydides is not in very many other places in the US, and the fact that it's on a museum at prospect park is really cool, for obvious reasons. Has this been vetted previously?

danielrisk wrote:: I just want to throw this out there, in my recent searches I actually discovered that Thucydides is also on the wall of the Brooklyn Museum, right at the edge of Prospect Park. To be fair, I can't find a clear fit for Xenophon nearby. But, Thucydides is not in very many other places in the US, and the fact that it's on a museum at prospect park is really cool, for obvious reasons. Has this been vetted previously? That is an interesting find. Definitely something to think about.

I disagree. Thucydides is written on buildings in many places. I dont see what brings you to Brooklyn museum here to establish the importance of this Thucydides amount the other options. I also dont agree that it's necessary to interpret Thucydides or Xenophon as requiring them to be written in stone. The Cleveland example of M and B are not necessarily a trend.

erexere wrote:: I disagree. Thucydides is written on buildings in many places. I dont see what brings you to Brooklyn museum here to establish the importance of this Thucydides amount the other options. I also dont agree that it's necessary to interpret Thucydides or Xenophon as requiring them to be written in stone. The Cleveland example of M and B are not necessarily a trend. On the contrary, I have not found Thucydides to be common on many buildings. The Greek cultural garden in Cleveland, BPL, library in Little Rock (circa 2001), and now the museum in Brooklyn. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen it in many other places. I do agree about there being a good chance it's not carved. M and B were pretty obvious with the "carved in stone" bit. Especially when you consider that one is North of the other, it would make more sense that they were both on ground level and north/south of each other. I do think it's important that we put out other ideas to research. We have a whole new slew of people wanting to research these puzzles, and the go-to solutions have been exhausted to death. I think it's fun to give new folks alternative avenues to explore.

erexere wrote:: I disagree. Thucydides is written on buildings in many places. I dont see what brings you to Brooklyn museum here to establish the importance of this Thucydides amount the other options. I also dont agree that it's necessary to interpret Thucydides or Xenophon as requiring them to be written in stone. The Cleveland example of M and B are not necessarily a trend. The BPL hasn't really led us anywhere particularly convincing to me as far as image and verse matches go anyway. As far as alternatives ( not that this is a new idea):. My initial impression of T&X is that it's used to refer to two statues relatively close to each other and obviously in or nearby a park. Then you take "his direction" to be the direction of one of the statues and you are off to the races. I would also imagine the two statues have a relationship similar to T&X. They are often mentioned together in the same breath and they Xenophon really followed along in Thucydides footsteps and basically finished his history of the Peloponnesian war. I'll do some more research on candidate statues but so far, the ones along the commonwealth avenue mall might fit ok. Or I have often thought about Columbus + Leif Erickson as matches but they are quite far from each other so it gets too ambiguous to follow.

I believe you mean Chicago when talking about M and B. I think it is useful as it is a methodology that Byron Preiss used I believe clues set in Stone is more likely than old book references to Boston and New York but I could be wrong I have read the forum but am curios as to the other places but Erexere do you know off hand where they are The Brooklyn Museum is interesting but I dont see the coliseum or stairs and water in the verse My theory is that the first lines of Chicago, Cleveland and Houston give you the boundaries or north and south of search area

Doghousereiley wrote:: I believe clues set in Stone is more likely than old book references to Boston and New York but I could be wrong I whole-heartedly agree. Using quotes from popular literature as a reference is one thing, but expecting anybody in the early 80's pre-Google to be able to reference these Horace Mann letters has always felt silly to me. It also seems like a stretch to think the T and X and the Horace Mann thing only points to the city. In the other examples, no lines of the verse were meant to get you to a city. That's the image's job (presumably).

Oh ya, M B in Chicago...everything is melding together as the holidays approach... Doghousereilly, RE: other places. I've found their names on the outside of library buildings and college campus buildings in several states.

danielrisk wrote:: I whole-heartedly agree. Using quotes from popular literature as a reference is one thing, but expecting anybody in the early 80's pre-Google to be able to reference these Horace Mann letters has always felt silly to me. Strong disagree. How much do you know about Gilbert Parker? Are you familiar with his writings enough to recognize them when quoted? Much of verse 5 are direct quotes from his writing. Honestly, without google, I wouldn’t have had the slightest clue who he was or that he had any involvement with verse 5. Being a Boston local, Horace Mann and Horace Walpole are much more recognizable. Probably by design.

Never heard of Gilbert Parker. Which part of verse 5 is attributed to him? I recognize that some verses have some little know literary quotes. Herman Melville's Pierre is obviously a quote although I think random and little known. Bryon Priess say it is a quote in the Japanese version of the text and the New Orleans verse and Charleston verse quote Abroad in America which is another book I would call obscure Gilbert Parker. sure why not? Horace Mann why not? I just think the Horace reference to two cities doesn't work I think T and X and land marks

Doghousereiley wrote:: Never heard of Gilbert Parker. Which part of verse 5 is attributed to him? I recognize that some verses have some little know literary quotes. Herman Melville's Pierre is obviously a quote although I think random and little known. Bryon Priess say it is a quote in the Japanese version of the text and the New Orleans verse and Charleston verse quote Abroad in America which is another book I would call obscure Gilbert Parker. sure why not? Horace Mann why not? I just think the Horace reference to two cities doesn't work I think T and X and land marks I believe parker’s poem/story “the citadel” is quoted in multiple lines of verse 5. (Wind swept halls, etc.) I would love for t and x to be landmarks. The problem is that no one has found anything reasonable in 36 years. It would be difficult to convince me that verse 3 doesn’t belong to Boston, and I just don’t think those landmarks exist here. My opinion is that the Walpole quote is a more reasonable explanation than the names on the wall of the Boston Public Library. It’s simple, direct and doesn’t require a bunch of assumptions. Also, let’s not forget one commonly overlooked part of the quote. It starts with “ the next Augustan age”. Verse 3 has been assumed to be the puzzle for Boston and the month of August. Others disagree and I’m fine with that.

I believe the Walpole letter, if that's what T&X refer to, are rather like the Melville quote in verse 1: not necessary to solve the puzzle, but helpful if you happen to know it. I live in Boston and while I know the name Horace Mann (there's stuff that's named after him), I can promise you that it would have been extraordinarily rare for anyone to have read his letters, especially in 1983. Without Google or a searchable OCR database of the guy's letters, the puzzle would have been borderline unsolvable at the time. I don't dispute that it may very well refer to Boston (again, like the Hermann Park bit in v1), but there's no way T&X were intended as the clues that reveal the city is Boston. To put it another way, there's no way Preiss intended for the reader to have needed to read this one letter from Walpole in order to solve this puzzle.

jsp wrote:: I believe the Walpole letter, if that's what T&X refer to, are rather like the Melville quote in verse 1: not necessary to solve the puzzle, but helpful if you happen to know it. I live in Boston and while I know the name Horace Mann (there's stuff that's named after him), I can promise you that it would have been extraordinarily rare for anyone to have read his letters, especially in 1983. Without Google or a searchable OCR database of the guy's letters, the puzzle would have been borderline unsolvable at the time. I don't dispute that it may very well refer to Boston (again, like the Hermann Park bit in v1), but there's no way T&X were intended as the clues that reveal the city is Boston. To put it another way, there's no way Preiss intended for the reader to have needed to read this one letter from Walpole in order to solve this puzzle. For me, the wording that ties this verse to Boston is "18th day, 12th hr, lit by lamplight" Not T & X and not those names with regards to the BPL

BINGO wrote:: I don’t disagree with anything you mentioned here. Another thing that wasn’t available to Preiss or searchers from the time period is the wiki site and its solutions. As a college student who finds the names on the wall while doing research for this puzzle, please explain how you get anywhere from the Library by using the verse. If you buy into the wiki explanations, I simply disagree with you. They don’t make sense. There is no clear direction. Many people think these puzzles are a walking tour and the iconic image is the usual starting point. Many people believe the iconic image is the Kelleher Rose Garden. Why do most people believe the starting point is the library? Shouldn’t it be the rose garden? (Seems like a more centrally located place when thinking about many of the proposed dig sites) Or is it because the names on the BPL wall match the first lines of the verse? Are we really trying a bit too hard to substitute 5 bus stops, 5 T-stops, 5 named streets, for 5 steps outlined in the wiki? If you start at the library, you can molest the number 5 and the direction of travel enough to get anywhere you like in the city of Boston. I just don’t buy any of it. My opinion, feel free to draw your own or let the wiki make one up for everyone. My first confirmer from the Image were the latitude and longitude numbers after reading the Verse. I didn't say a college student necessarily found it on the wall doing research but maybe. I was just saying what I used to have to do when I was in college to find info. I would spend hours trying to find books to write college papers for different classes. Hell, I could write a paper today in an hour that would have taken 10 hours or more back in the 70s and 80s. Now to answer your question about how to get anywhere if you start at BPL. I was looking at West from a physical standpoint of which way I'd go if I were looking at the names on the wall of BPL. As you know, the name Thucyidides is above, or North of Xenophon on the wall. Now I can't go up the wall, but I can walk in that direction. Next, one has to figure out what BP meant by "step". The conclusion that had been thrown out about a "city block" made good sense (and for me has been confirmed in the Houston and SF puzzles). So if I go 5 blocks West I end up at the John Boyle O'Reilly statue. That statue helps connect the image and verses beautifully for me. And I agree, you can molest the numbers and words in many ways. But as for the Wiki, they are all over the place with good and bad info.

jsp wrote:: I believe the Walpole letter, if that's what T&X refer to, are rather like the Melville quote in verse 1: not necessary to solve the puzzle, but helpful if you happen to know it. I live in Boston and while I know the name Horace Mann (there's stuff that's named after him), I can promise you that it would have been extraordinarily rare for anyone to have read his letters, especially in 1983. Without Google or a searchable OCR database of the guy's letters, the puzzle would have been borderline unsolvable at the time. I don't dispute that it may very well refer to Boston (again, like the Hermann Park bit in v1), but there's no way T&X were intended as the clues that reveal the city is Boston. To put it another way, there's no way Preiss intended for the reader to have needed to read this one letter from Walpole in order to solve this puzzle. I’m not saying that the Walpole quote is the ultimate solution to the Boston puzzle. However, everyone likes to use that quote as “reinforcement” or in addition to the T&X on wall at the BPL. If you start your search from that point, the directions are clear as mud. What I am saying is that it is far more likely that Preiss would use a obscure quote with a connection to a local writer. Gilbert Parker being quoted in verse 5 is a perfect example. He was CANADIAN and it is absolutely irrefutable that his poem was included in the verse that many people attribute to the Montreal puzzle. Since everyone loves to double down and find reinforcement for weak clues, “the next Augustan age” is your second connection to Walpole’s quote. Image 11 is the the Peridot puzzle, the birthstone for August. It’s an easier stretch for me to think that Preiss included a quote from a local writer that could decipher the city AND potentially link the verse to an image. But, by all means, head directly to the library, have a good look at the names on that wall, and then report back with your confidence level of what direction you were really meant to travel. Most people have a specific end point in mind before making an honest assessment of the clues (or lack there of).

strike13 wrote:: For me, the wording that ties this verse to Boston is "18th day, 12th hr, lit by lamplight" Not T & X and not those names with regards to the BPL 100% agree. That line is a lock for Boston in my eyes as well. One thing about it that I think is a little different is it can be associated with many possible locations within Boston and the surrounding area. It can be linked to Paul Revere, Longfellow and the Old North Church. There are many important places in Boston that have specific ties to that historic ride and the poem that was written about it. I have a feeling that it is meant to be a nod to a location, just my opinion.

drunknerds wrote:: The "Walpole is west" part really baffles me. 1. Why introduce another direction and character. We already have two characters (X and T) and a direction (North). 2. Preiss had a master's degree in communications. While not outside the realm of possibility, I just can't see someone that obsessed with words using a pronoun which refers to an antecedcent that's not the most recent applicable noun. It's a staple of grammar. So "take five steps in his direction" would have to refer to Xenophon, as it is the most recently used masculine name before the pronoun. So five steps south. From what though? The library? If so, that's a great clue but five steps from the library gets us... nowhere really? Just to entertain your argument, the full quotation from Horace Walpole is: "The next Augustan age will dawn on the other side of the Atlantic. There will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston, a Xenophon at New York, and, in time, a Virgil at Mexico, and a Newton at Peru. At last, some curious traveller from Lima will visit England and give a description of the ruins of St Paul’s, like the editions of Balbec and Palmyra." While I agree that this is obscure and we would have to dig deep in 1982, let's assume we find the quote, perhaps in Barlett's. The final person that is referred to in the quote is Newton, which is a suburb of Boston just to the west. Not saying any of this make sense, because it is a very strange clue or instruction, but the Newton connection is interesting. Alternately, there is a statue of Horace Mann in front of the State House on Beacon and at the Common, and near the path of the Freedom Trail. Maybe this is all just a pointer to get us to the State House as the start point. The flag shape in the circle above the woman's head is a pretty good indicator and the feather for Stuart Gilbert is another (his tomb is in the Central Burial Ground in the Common).

gManTexas wrote:: Alternately, there is a statue of Horace Mann in front of the State House on Beacon and at the Common, and near the path of the Freedom Trail. Maybe this is all just a pointer to get us to the State House as the start point. The flag shape in the circle above the woman's head is a pretty good indicator and the feather for Stuart Gilbert is another (his tomb is in the Central Burial Ground in the Common). Are you referring to Gilbert Stuart, famous for painting portraits of early presidents? How does he connect to the puzzle? Is it simply the feather (as a paint brush) and that he is buried in Boston? I admit, I’m not really up to speed with his connection, but willing to learn.

BINGO wrote:: Are you referring to Gilbert Stuart, famous for painting portraits of early presidents? How does he connect to the puzzle? Is it simply the feather (as a paint brush) and that he is buried in Boston? I admit, I’m not really up to speed with his connection, but willing to learn. Yeah, Gilbert Stuart, got a little twisted up there. The feather looks very similar to the one on his tombstone which was a replica of the marker someone put on the fence long ago at the Central Burial Grounds. Let's suppose that it is Gilbert Stuart, his painting of Washington is very well known. You have the In truth be free line in the verse, which some claim to be connected to Washington. I believe this may be a pointing to Mt. Vernon and the old Meeting House on the corner at Charles. Gilbert Stuart's tombstone is at Charles and Boylston. If we follow the path from the Horace Mann statue to Stuart's gravestone, traveling across the Common (SW direction), you are heading in the direction of Columbus Ave. At Columbus Avenue and Stuart Street, you are in front of the Armory, which I believe is the model for the Castle on the box the woman is holding.

Ok. I wasn’t aware of the potential feather connection. I’ll be sure to check that out the next time I’m over in that area. Could be a spot that offers other visual info.

I wanted to share a thought that I had recently about the verse and its potential connection to Longfellow and see what others might think. I grew up in New England and have spent most of my time in Boston and a small town in New Hampshire. Thinking back to history classes from grade school, I am fairly certain that every kid from the New England States learned about Paul Revere and his famous ride. The lanterns in the church, the route, the message, all of it. Is it possible that Eighteenth day, Twelfth hour is simply a reference to history? Not the Landlord's Tale? I fully understand that the poem is based on historical facts and this is an exercise in splitting hairs. I'm not a believer in Preiss adding red herrings to these puzzles, but could Longfellow be an unintended one? Most of my research lately has been testing the proposed and accepted theories and clues that have been floating around for years. If you dig deep enough into most of them, their flaws begin to shine through. However, many connections to Longfellow exist and are completely valid. (2C site/Somerset hotel, Sites along the Esplanade/Longfellow Bridge, etc.) The problem is that they don't ever get us to a clear finish line. If we drop Longfellow, the story doesn't change very much, but does it simplify things and help eliminate areas that have been fruitless?

BINGO wrote:: I wanted to share a thought that I had recently about the verse and its potential connection to Longfellow and see what others might think. I grew up in New England and have spent most of my time in Boston and a small town in New Hampshire. Thinking back to history classes from grade school, I am fairly certain that every kid from the New England States learned about Paul Revere and his famous ride. The lanterns in the church, the route, the message, all of it. Is it possible that Eighteenth day, Twelfth hour is simply a reference to history? Not the Landlord's Tale? I fully understand that the poem is based on historical facts and this is an exercise in splitting hairs. I'm not a believer in Preiss adding red herrings to these puzzles, but could Longfellow be an unintended one? Most of my research lately has been testing the proposed and accepted theories and clues that have been floating around for years. If you dig deep enough into most of them, their flaws begin to shine through. However, many connections to Longfellow exist and are completely valid. (2C site/Somerset hotel, Sites along the Esplanade/Longfellow Bridge, etc.) The problem is that they don't ever get us to a clear finish line. If we drop Longfellow, the story doesn't change very much, but does it simplify things and help eliminate areas that have been fruitless? Given the fact the there are a ton of literary quotes and references in the book, it seems reasonable to attribute the lines in the verse to Longfellow.

I'm much more accepting of dropping anything from a theoretical view and inspecting how it affects the feel of the puzzle. No matter how convincing nor good a fit something might seem, it's not necessarily true to the intent or course of the puzzle. A clear finish line is a great way to put it. The Boston puzzle has been a marathon of clashes in perspective. Getting things exactly right is not easy nor is it easy to test.

Boston is turning out to be another big dig, big dig 2.

This is how I broke down the lines of Verse 3 to come up with my interpretation of their meanings: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon - These 2 names engraved on the Boston Public Library wall Take five steps - City blocks In the area of his direction - West toward Back Bay Fens A green tower of lights - Fenway Park Lights In the middle section - Center (Middle) Section of VG, other 2 sections are Boylston Section and Park Section Near those Who pass the coliseum - Path of the Boston Marathon going near Fenway Park With metal walls - Fenway Park Face the water - Muddy River Your back to the stairs - Fenway Park's stairs Feel at home - Victory Gardens plots All the letters - PRUDENTIAL(L) Bldg Are here to see - Means 2 C, as in Compost Area #2 in Victory Gardens From Compost Area #2 you can see the top of the Prudential Bldg. The word "All" in this verse is a creative play on the end of PRUDENTIAL(L). Eighteenth day - April 18th, Paul Revere's Day Twelfth hour - Midnight, Paul Revere's Time These two lines also refer to the first Scheduled game at Fenway Park which was supposed to be on April 18th at noon. Unfortunately the first game got rained out on the 18th and then again on the 19th. Eventually being played on April 20th. My speculation is that this game was scheduled at this time and date in honor of Paul Revere's Historic Ride. Lit by lamplight - Casque location is lit by the Arc Lamps on the LF line from Fenway park. These reach the VG between the two buildings on each side of Ipswich. In truth, be free - There's a lot of detail to this clue from a poem......"In truth be free" is a line from an 1864 anti-slavery song called "Ode on Washington's Birthday." The longer quote goes like this: Burst the fetters of oppression, Let our land in truth be free, And no longer Slavery's curse Blast the land of Liberty. On to victory! <<<<<This is the convincing part of the clue. The last line tells you to go to Victory Gardens.

This is how I broke down the lines of Verse 3 to come up with my interpretation of their meanings: If Thucydides is North of Xenophon - These 2 names engraved on the Boston Public Library wall Take five steps - City blocks In the area of his direction - West toward Back Bay Fens A green tower of lights - Fenway Park Lights In the middle section - Center (Middle) Section of VG, other 2 sections are Boylston Section and Park Section Near those Who pass the coliseum - Path of the Boston Marathon going near Fenway Park With metal walls - Fenway Park Face the water - Muddy River Your back to the stairs - Fenway Park's stairs Feel at home - Victory Gardens plots All the letters - PRUDENTIAL(L) Bldg Are here to see - Means 2 C, as in Compost Area #2 in Victory Gardens From Compost Area #2 you can see the top of the Prudential Bldg. The word "All" in this verse is a creative play on the end of PRUDENTIAL(L). Eighteenth day - April 18th, Paul Revere's Day Twelfth hour - Midnight, Paul Revere's Time These two lines also refer to the first Scheduled game at Fenway Park which was supposed to be on April 18th at noon. Unfortunately the first game got rained out on the 18th and then again on the 19th. Eventually being played on April 20th. My speculation is that this game was scheduled at this time and date in honor of Paul Revere's Historic Ride. Lit by lamplight - Casque location is lit by the Arc Lamps on the LF line from Fenway park. These reach the VG between the two buildings on each side of Ipswich. In truth, be free - There's a lot of detail to this clue from a poem......"In truth be free" is a line from an 1864 anti-slavery song called "Ode on Washington's Birthday." The longer quote goes like this: Burst the fetters of oppression, Let our land in truth be free, And no longer Slavery's curse Blast the land of Liberty. On to victory! <<<<<This is the convincing part of the clue. The last line tells you to go to Victory Gardens.

Do you have a 1982 era map that shows the limits of compost area #2? Or something that even shows an area labeled anything similar? Do you have a way to narrow down your search area to a 5 1/2” square? From your drawing, the red lines create a very large search area by the time it gets to the victory gardens. In my opinion, those are two pretty important items to establish before much stock can be into this theory.

BINGO wrote:: Do you have a 1982 era map that shows the limits of compost area #2? Or something that even shows an area labeled anything similar? Do you have a way to narrow down your search area to a 5 1/2” square? From your drawing, the red lines create a very large search area by the time it gets to the victory gardens. In my opinion, those are two pretty important items to establish before much stock can be into this theory. I believe in a post that either you or someone else posted showed an older area from the 80s or so, showing how the paths were not as defined as they are today. But there were the main paths along with many "trails" between the various plots. My red lines from the Fenway lights are just to show how the angle of those lamps line up thru the opening between the buildings on both sides of Ipswich and into VG. That area encompasses Compost Area #2. From that angle with the clues provided in Verse and Image, I see the location as being the left triangular "corner" inside Path P and Path U. I know that you and Sarah and others have worked you butts off in some of those spots already. My main target area is a triangle about 3'x3'x3'. As you have said before those compost areas have changed in size over the years but from the overheads I've seen posted, the specific area I'm talking about in Compost Area #2 is the same while the edge going away from Path P has varied somewhat. This is my target area :

I'll try to find those side by side photos on this site when I get a chance and am away from my many customers at the moment.

MrBackstop wrote:: I'll try to find those side by side photos on this site when I get a chance and am away from my many customers at the moment. I think we lost MrBack... to the porn bots.

Choice wrote:: I think we lost MrBack... to the porn bots. Those porn bots got more chance of solving this thing than we do Choice.

Maybe Bing and Google bots. Those things get around!

Thanks again to BINGO for this side-by-side: https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png

MrBackstop wrote:: Thanks again to BINGO for this side-by-side: https://i.imgur.com/fXH38HI.png ah, it's my good old "hand opening the box"!

Box? You mean lantern?

Choice wrote:: Box? You mean lantern? no, i meant box.

I want to give Strike total credit for one of the clues that solidified my final dig spot. She is the one that realized "Face the water" meant two things. First, in the logical sense meaning face a body of water (Muddy River) and secondly, in a literal sense, the river bank of the Muddy River on the Victory Gardens side, makes the shape of a human profile. Strike, I thought this was an incredible observation months ago.

Unknown: Who pass the coliseum Unknown: With metal walls Unknown: Who pass Hey all I wanted to point out a few possible verse matches for Harvard Stadium The Harvard Stadium is modeled after the Roman Coliseum. This has been brought up before and speaks for itself The Harvard stadium pioneered the use of reinforcing concrete with steel rebar. The Harvard Stadium is also famous for one more thing - pioneering the use of the forward pass in American football. Football was running-only and was too dangerous at the time and they were considering widening the regulation field size to reduce collisions, but the recently built Harvard Stadium was wasn't big enough and because of that the forward pass was introduced to football. The fact that the verse uses the words pass, coliseum, and metal walls and all of those things are integral to the history of Harvard Stadium is just struck me as a little more than coincidental.

dosethree wrote:: Hey all I wanted to point out a few possible verse matches for Harvard Stadium The Harvard Stadium is modeled after the Roman Coliseum. This has been brought up before and speaks for itself The Harvard stadium pioneered the use of reinforcing concrete with steel rebar. The Harvard Stadium is also famous for one more thing - pioneering the use of the forward pass in American football. Football was running-only and was too dangerous at the time and they were considering widening the regulation field size to reduce collisions, but the recently built Harvard Stadium was wasn't big enough and because of that the forward pass was introduced to football. The fact that the verse uses the words pass, coliseum, and metal walls and all of those things are integral to the history of Harvard Stadium is just struck me as a little more than coincidental. If you're gonna go with Harvard Stadium, I think that "near those who pass" could also refer to Memorial Drive.

strike13 wrote:: If you're gonna go with Harvard Stadium, I think that "near those who pass" could also refer to Memorial Drive. I have been thinking about what if "With metal walls" has nothing to do with the previous line. And it could pair with "Face the water'. Now that changes the whole meaning. Could just mean a fence. Just a thought.

Maybe this will stir up some new ideas - take it or leave it. "A green tower of lights In the middle section" Seems there are two main schools of thought on these lines. The "green tower of lights" refers to either Fenway Park or the Hancock Tower. I was never a huge fan of the Fenway theory, but the Hancock theory seems far more outlandish. For a hunter to know that the Hancock is said "green tower of lights," he/she would have to be out searching at night. I'm pretty confident Preiss wasn't aiming for this. Any other theories floating around out there?

I have often thought the green tower of lights may refer to the statue of liberty. Possible mismatch of puzzle and verse.

FollowTheWay wrote:: Maybe this will stir up some new ideas - take it or leave it. "A green tower of lights In the middle section" Seems there are two main schools of thought on these lines. The "green tower of lights" refers to either Fenway Park or the Hancock Tower. I was never a huge fan of the Fenway theory, but the Hancock theory seems far more outlandish. For a hunter to know that the Hancock is said "green tower of lights," he/she would have to be out searching at night. I'm pretty confident Preiss wasn't aiming for this. Any other theories floating around out there? There's several that have been thought of/mentioned: fenway the hancock the green building at MIT a random green lamppost the old elevated 93 was a green structure towering over the city and the lights would be the cars on it the tower on the old south church that lights up green at night the green steeple tower thing at simmons college near the fens the lombard lamppost on the comm ave mall near kenmore square surely more...

It seems to me that whatever Preiss was referring to either had to be lit up during the daytime, or at least appear to be lit. I thought the old elevated 93 might be the answer for a while as well since it was referred to as the "other green monster" given how much traffic was constantly present. However, daytime running lights on vehicles didn't exist back in 1982.

FollowTheWay wrote:: It seems to me that whatever Preiss was referring to either had to be lit up during the daytime, or at least appear to be lit. I thought the old elevated 93 might be the answer for a while as well since it was referred to as the "other green monster" given how much traffic was constantly present. However, daytime running lights on vehicles didn't exist back in 1982. That's why things that hold lights may be better....such as fenway, such as a lamppost. they do not have to be lit for one to know that it is a green tower, consisting of lights.

I was thinking about this Verse the other day and recent discussions regarding sentence structure. This is very strange linguistically: "Take five steps In the area of his direction" We would not typically say: " In the area of his direction " It would normally be written, "In the direction of his area." This tells me a few things. First we are going north because we are kind of instructed to do so in a round about way. Once we are there, "his direction" could mean a male Director (Conductor, Leader, etc.). "In the area" would be the the general area we are in. If we interpret it this way, we are not necessarily taking five steps North, but rather five steps toward the casque location. If this is the case, then there are other instruction in either the Verse or the Image, including the line about "Your back to the stairs", which then does not necessarily have us facing north. Discuss.

I visited the Paul Revere Mall (Prado) a while ago and realized a few interesting things while standing there. While standing in front of the statue, I noticed there is a water fountain directly in front of me. (Behind Paul). There were a few granite steps directly behind me at the entrance. The statue is Paul Revere sitting on his horse, looking forward but pointing at something almost behind him. Back to the stairs, facing the water. Take 5 steps in the area of his direction (Paul is pointing or giving us direction). 5 steps from Paul’s hand puts you into a tree planter. The entire area is brick walkway with the exception of the tree planters. The Prado/Mall is directly under the Old North Church steeple and it’s famous lanterns from the midnight ride. Also, all of this is located in the most Italian area in all of Boston. I didn’t find anything casque related, nor any image matches. But, if you are spitballing for ideas of what the area of his direction means, I think something like this could definitely apply.

BINGO wrote:: I visited the Paul Revere Mall (Prado) a while ago and realized a few interesting things while standing there. While standing in front of the statue, I noticed there is a water fountain directly in front of me. (Behind Paul). There were a few granite steps directly behind me at the entrance. The statue is Paul Revere sitting on his horse, looking forward but pointing at something almost behind him. Back to the stairs, facing the water. Take 5 steps in the area of his direction (Paul is pointing or giving us direction). 5 steps from Paul’s hand puts you into a tree planter. The entire area is brick walkway with the exception of the tree planters. Not to mention the Prado/Mall is directly under the Old North Church steeple and it’s famous lanterns from the midnight ride. I didn’t find anything casque related, nor any image matches. But, if you are spitballing for ideas of what the area of his direction means, I think something like this could definitely apply. Did you probe the planter? Reading the Verse, it seems like the casque location would have to be bounded by something.

gManTexas wrote:: Did you probe the planter? Reading the Verse, it seems like the casque location would have to be bounded by something. Yes, multiple times. Also, the entire mall was dug up this past summer and is still being rebuilt. I made multiple stops during construction. Since I work for one of the biggest contractors in the city, it’s very easy to talk to the guys doing the work. Everyone is always looking for a contact person when looking for their next job. None of the workers saw anything interesting during the excavation. I’m definitely not trying to say that I think it is or was there at any point. I’m just sharing an experience that opened my eyes to other potential meanings to lines in the verse.

Did you probe the planter? Reading the Verse, it seems like the casque location would have to be bounded by something.[/quote] Would have to probe all of the planters there. They have all been thrown to one corner for the past few months, in order for the renovations of the prado to take place, therefore removing any sense of direction as to the planters and the verse/image once they are placed back. Surely each one wont be placed back exactly where they were, same location, however it wont be the same planter to the same location. I am unsure if this has been done prior to now, renovations there. I know some have been done, but I do not believe to this extent, full overhaul of the park/brick area. I know there was a flagpole by the fountain, possibly still there in the 80s too. I do not think a renovation of this current scale and magnitude has taken there place between 80 until now.

[quote="strike13”] Would have to probe all of the planters there. They have all been thrown to one corner for the past few months, in order for the renovations of the prado to take place, therefore removing any sense of direction as to the planters and the verse/image once they are placed back. Surely each one wont be placed back exactly where they were, same location, however it wont be the same planter to the same location. I am unsure if this has been done prior to now, renovations there. I know some have been done, but I do not believe to this extent, full overhaul of the park/brick area. I know there was a flagpole by the fountain, possibly still there in the 80s too. I do not think a renovation of this current scale and magnitude has taken there place between 80 until now.[/quote] I’ll clarify this with a little more detail. There were urn like planters scattered throughout the prado that were for various plantings. Those are the planters Strike is talking about above. They are still there and likely will be reused when the prado is complete. There are also fully grown trees within the brick walkways that have rectangular areas where the brick is absent to allow for the trees to grow. My immediate focus was these tree areas, but the urns got a piece of the probe as well.

Another thought on this Verse. What if BP didn't know that the names Thucydides and Xenophon were carved into the library. Wouldn't that change things significantly? In this case, the reference to Horace Walpole's quote is only a locater for Boston, not unlike the Sarmiento quote in Verse 2 for New Orleans. I still feel strongly that T & X stand for something else after we locate in Boston though.

gManTexas wrote:: Another thought on this Verse. What if BP didn't know that the names Thucydides and Xenophon were carved into the library. Wouldn't that change things significantly? In this case, the reference to Horace Walpole's quote is only a locater for Boston, not unlike the Sarmiento quote in Verse 2 for New Orleans. I still feel strongly that T & X stand for something else after we locate in Boston though. Call me a skeptic or everything that Choice has called me, but I’m still not convinced about the T&X at the library. If it truly is a reference to the BPL, I think we are missing CLEAR instructions/clues on how to get there and where to go after we arrive. The Horace quote could be coincidence as well. I just don’t think there is enough evidence to call either of these topics actual facts.

Acrostically speaking and somewhat a hybrid or selective notion, I cant bring myself to ignore the idea that Thucydides And Xenophon are hint worthy of the link to Boston's TAX history.

erexere wrote:: Acrostically speaking and somewhat a hybrid or selective notion, I cant bring myself to ignore the idea that Thucydides And Xenophon are hint worthy of the link to Boston's TAX history. That could certainly make some sense if it were in the verse.

BINGO wrote:: Call me a skeptic or everything that Choice has called me, but I’m still not convinced about the T&X at the library. If it truly is a reference to the BPL, I think we are missing CLEAR instructions/clues on how to get there and where to go after we arrive. The Horace quote could be coincidence as well. I just don’t think there is enough evidence to call either of these topics actual facts. Thucydides and Xenophon seem too intentional and specific to be a coincidence.

gManTexas wrote:: Thucydides and Xenophon seem too intentional and specific to be a coincidence. I completely agree. My opinion is pretty simple, I don’t believe anyone, including myself, has made a good enough argument to seal the T and X line into law. Every theory has reasonable doubt. Every theory is missing something important. I just don’t think we have the evidence to say what it really means without question. Doing this is a recipe for another fruitless 37 years in Boston. My opinion, nothing more.

BINGO wrote:: I completely agree. My opinion is pretty simple, I don’t believe anyone, including myself, has made a good enough argument to seal the T and X line into law. Every theory has reasonable doubt. Every theory is missing something important. I just don’t think we have the evidence to say what it really means without question. Doing this is a recipe for another fruitless 37 years in Boston. My opinion, nothing more. You've probably considered numbers for the letters, but anyway. T = 20 X = 24 Maybe dimensions or steps or something like that?

gManTexas wrote:: You've probably considered numbers for the letters, but anyway. T = 20 X = 24 Maybe dimensions or steps or something like that? Dabbled with letters too. Never got too far with any of it. T is North of X if you stack the alphabet vertically. It's just hard to tell if it's complete garbage or a clue. O P Q R S T U V W X

T>X is perfectly 5 steps

Spiritr wrote:: T>X is perfectly 5 steps 5?

"If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps" 1 2 3 4 5 T U V W X

But you don't count the step that you are at.

Spiritr wrote:: "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps" 1 2 3 4 5 T U V W X

Maybe it's a way of placing the map on the table. T north of X. T and X are both crosses. Lets say T is Trinity church and X is for XP (Chi-Rho) for Church of Christ or Old North. Set the map on the table so Trinity church is on top. Another word, turn the map upside down.

In the spirit of Gman's pin suggestion, I thought I would share a few verse related items that I found interesting. Here is an older map of the freedom trail. Today, many of the sites are no longer official stops and some of the "freedom path" sites are now part of the freedom trail. Not sure when these changes were made official, not sure if it really matters. #4 & #5 are in the same general location and there is a plaque in the sidewalk that has the complete alphabet displayed in honor of the first public school. #11,12,13 are located in the North End of the city. (The Italian District) All of these stops are strongly tied to Paul Revere and his Midnight Ride. (#4 & #5 and the Boston Garden seem to be the exception, #4 & #5 are also the furthest away geographically.) One unmapped item of interest is the infamous Columbus Statue that is located just below #11 near the waterfront/Harbor. For the history buffs that are attacking this verse, I just can't imagine how this isn't the top area of interest. Each potential location/verse match is labeled on the map. For the image match truthers (like me) this area will suck the life out of you. It is barren when it comes to image matches. ***DISCLAIMER*** This in no way should be taken as a "solve". I am simply sharing interesting potential connections to the verse and the City of Boston. direct link https://i.imgur.com/uvBFA2c.jpg ?

BINGO wrote:: In the spirit of Gman's pin suggestion, I thought I would share a few verse related items that I found interesting. Here is an older map of the freedom trail. Today, many of the sites are no longer official stops and some of the "freedom path" sites are now part of the freedom trail. Not sure when these changes were made official, not sure if it really matters. #4 & #5 are in the same general location and there is a plaque in the sidewalk that has the complete alphabet displayed in honor of the first public school. #11,12,13 are located in the North End of the city. (The Italian District) All of these stops are strongly tied to Paul Revere and his Midnight Ride. (#4 & #5 and the Boston Garden seem to be the exception, #4 & #5 are also the furthest away geographically.) One unmapped item of interest is the infamous Columbus Statue that is located just below #11 near the waterfront/Harbor. For the history buffs that are attacking this verse, I just can't imagine how this isn't the top area of interest. Each potential location/verse match is labeled on the map. For the image match truthers (like me) this area will suck the life out of you. It is barren when it comes to image matches. ***DISCLAIMER*** This in no way should be taken as a "solve". I am simply sharing interesting potential connections to the verse and the City of Boston. Thanks for sharing this. Pretty sweet find and great line of thinking. Do we have a time frame on the postcard, and more important when the "Freedom Path" existed a separate thing from the Trail?

gManTexas wrote:: Thanks for sharing this. Pretty sweet find and great line of thinking. Do we have a time frame on the postcard, and more important when the "Freedom Path" existed a separate thing from the Trail? It is not separate from the Freedom Trail, it is virtually the same exact path.

strike13 wrote:: It is not separate from the Freedom Trail, it is virtually the same exact path. Pretty much all it is is just one trail now...as you see the "path" and the "trail"...it is the same thing, just all called the Freedom Trail. I am sorry I think i misunderstood your initial question, you just wanted to know when they were separate. Although the postcard says they are separate, I am not sure whether tourist would be able to discern the paths form the trail back then, prob would just be all the same thing, as it is today.

gManTexas wrote:: Thanks for sharing this. Pretty sweet find and great line of thinking. Do we have a time frame on the postcard, and more important when the "Freedom Path" existed a separate thing from the Trail? I have a pile of various maps like this one. None have dates that I can tell and this one seemed to be older than the others. A current map will show a 2.5 mile trail that starts at the State House and goes all the way to Bunker Hill Monument and the Charlestown Navy Yard. A few stops like the Boston Stone and Provincial Steps have been replaced with other sites. The changes seem difficult to date, but all the sites have always been important to the history of the City.

BINGO wrote:: I have a pile of various maps like this one. None have dates that I can tell and this one seemed to be older than the others. A current map will show a 2.5 mile trail that starts at the State House and goes all the way to Bunker Hill Monument and the Charlestown Navy Yard. A few stops like the Boston Stone and Provincial Steps have been replaced with other sites. The changes seem difficult to date, but all the sites have always been important to the history of the City. Except Columbus, cause he is not important to the history of our city. Which is why he is not a stop on the trail, or the path. And also why the woman in the image looks nada like him. I am also a Columbus statue truther

strike13 wrote:: Pretty much all it is is just one trail now...as you see the "path" and the "trail"...it is the same thing, just all called the Freedom Trail. I am sorry I think i misunderstood your initial question, you just wanted to know when they were separate. Although the postcard says they are separate, I am not sure whether tourist would be able to discern the paths form the trail back then, prob would just be all the same thing, as it is today. I have to believe that the official Freedom Trail was what was shown on the post card in red, and there were some outlying sights labeled Freedom Path. I wonder if that post card was done soon after the Trail was established in 1951.

The original idea for the Freedom Trail came from Bill Schofield, Boston Herald-Traveler writer, and Bob Winn, a member of the Old North Church, both of whom noticed the need for a clearer and more concise wayfinding tool for tourists visiting Boston's historic sites. Schofield outlined this plan in his "Have You Heard" column on March 8, 1951. "All I'm suggesting is that we mark out a 'Puritan Path' or 'Liberty Loop' or 'Freedom's Way' or whatever you want to call it, so [visitors and locals will] know where to start and what course to follow... [Y]ou could do the trick on a budget of just a few dollars and a bucket of paint. Not only would it add to the personality of the city, but also it would please the tourists."1 The idea reached City of Boston Mayor John B, Hynes' office. On Monday, June 11, 1951 at 12:00 noon, Mayor Hynes officially dedicated the Freedom Trail. The City of Boston installed "a series of painted signs along 30 prominent street corners pointing toward Old Boston's most famous historical shrines." The Freedom Trail took off immediately, and in 1953, it was recorded that 40,000 visitors utilized this new wayfinding tool. In its original form, the Freedom Trail was measured at a mile and a fifth long, beginning at Boston Common and ending in the North End. There was no red line on the ground, but a system of signs marking the path. In 1958, the red line was added and, in 1972, the Trail officially extended into Charlestown including all 16 of the present-day official Freedom Trail historic sites. https://www.thefreedomtrail.org/about/f ... ablishment

gManTexas wrote:: The original idea for the Freedom Trail came from Bill Schofield, Boston Herald-Traveler writer, and Bob Winn, a member of the Old North Church, both of whom noticed the need for a clearer and more concise wayfinding tool for tourists visiting Boston's historic sites. Schofield outlined this plan in his "Have You Heard" column on March 8, 1951. "All I'm suggesting is that we mark out a 'Puritan Path' or 'Liberty Loop' or 'Freedom's Way' or whatever you want to call it, so [visitors and locals will] know where to start and what course to follow... [Y]ou could do the trick on a budget of just a few dollars and a bucket of paint. Not only would it add to the personality of the city, but also it would please the tourists."1 The idea reached City of Boston Mayor John B, Hynes' office. On Monday, June 11, 1951 at 12:00 noon, Mayor Hynes officially dedicated the Freedom Trail. The City of Boston installed "a series of painted signs along 30 prominent street corners pointing toward Old Boston's most famous historical shrines." The Freedom Trail took off immediately, and in 1953, it was recorded that 40,000 visitors utilized this new wayfinding tool. In its original form, the Freedom Trail was measured at a mile and a fifth long, beginning at Boston Common and ending in the North End. There was no red line on the ground, but a system of signs marking the path. In 1958, the red line was added and, in 1972, the Trail officially extended into Charlestown including all 16 of the present-day official Freedom Trail historic sites. https://www.thefreedomtrail.org/about/f ... ablishment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7DQ_wwH7U

strike13 wrote:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7DQ_wwH7U Wow lots of globe lights as he rounds that corner from School to washington st

Am I the only person looking at the light poles, buildings and fences in the background while completely ignoring the runner in the video? It's a sickness...

BINGO wrote:: Am I the only person looking at the light poles, buildings and fences in the background while completely ignoring the runner in the video? It's a sickness... Not at all....that's all i was looking at hahahaa

gManTexas wrote:: Does anyone know what things looked like back then near Water Street? real Water street boston, or the water st chucktown near the new paul revere park?

Does anyone know what things looked like back then near Water Street?

strike13 wrote:: real Water street boston, or the water st chucktown near the new paul revere park? Water Street off Washington.

gManTexas wrote:: Water Street off Washington. it has looked largely the same. More than likely only different around the post office square area, as the parking garage was demolished in 95 and the park added in its place.

Choice wrote:: But you don't count the step that you are at. no, it obviously count, let me explain, let say the first 3 lines of the original context were one sentence, it goes: "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps" then it will be something like: " If T is 5 steps above X" And something I've always wanted to say, while all the guessing and focus are over Thucydides and Xenophon, the most important word I think is the first word "IF", it's not "Where", it's a hypothesis, like something you wrote on a sketch paper kind of clue, it might not be a physical location. Its something like BINGO posted, a map of some sort.

Spiritr wrote:: no, it obviously count, let me explain, let say the first 3 lines of the original context were one sentence, it goes: "If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps" then it will be something like: " If T is 5 steps above X" And something I've always wanted to say, while all the guessing and focus are over Thucydides and Xenophon, the most important word I think is the first word "IF", it's not "Where", it's a hypothesis, like something you wrote on a sketch paper kind of clue, it might not be a physical location. Its something like BINGO posted, a map of some sort. If we are to take this part of the Verse as a logical statement, like lines of code in a program, then the result would be to do nothing if Thucydides is NOT North of Xenophon. Obviously that is not helping us. I think your post above is meaningless. BP was a linguist and not a mathematician.

He is VERY good at math, and so is Alex Jay

Spiritr wrote:: He is VERY good at math, and so is Alex Jay BP could very well be good at math, he was a brilliant guy, however there does not appear to be much of any math involved in these puzzles. However, I would argue that someone that is "good at math" would never provide a clue of "Walk 100 paces". Not only are there too many variables, the natural reaction for your average person hunting is to count their own strides introducing error into the measurement. The only way I see this working is if there was a sign in the park that stated something was 250 feet away.

Many similarities. And freemasons!

Spiritr wrote:: looks like image 3

Even more resemblance if you combine both images.

oops, I posted in the wrong thread...

Spiritr wrote:: oops, I posted in the wrong thread... Spirit, where did you find that drawing?