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Re: image 12

Postby erexere » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:17 pm

It isnt perfect. Milage may vary. We dont know whether it was a degree of acceptability or not involved in moving the project forward. I'm trying to make it clear that we should not assume too much and we might consider some variability in terms of visual detail, or anything that's hard to make out. Subjectivity also varies. If it's good enough detail for just one person to make out, then we are all good, and BP and JJP did know what they were doing. The question is, who is that person?
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Re: image 12

Postby Kang » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:47 pm

Thank you XeroDM!
XeroDM wrote:We're just not going to decide whether it's lavender purple or off-lavender purple. I am sure we all agree on that …
Totally agree here.

Given the flaws that we can’t control, here is an attempt to pose my question in a way that attempts to allow for XeroDM’s optical mixing. Without zooming in, is the color represented here (flawed though it is) closer to Purple or Maroon? My proposal is that it’s clearly closer to Purple. Others are welcome to judge and come to their own conclusion.
Image

XeroDM wrote:As for the image matches, I think it's more important to have a multiplicity of image and verse matches. Yes, there could be 1000 bowman statues, but if 500 of them had an "L" near them, you could rule out 500 statues, and if 250 had 10x13 near them, you can rule out more, and so on and so forth until you know which bowman statue you're looking for.. look for supporting other matches, and decrease the importance of anything that isn't supported by other things.

That is a common sense approach. And will work if this puzzle works like the solved ones did. However I propose that approach becomes exponentially more difficult given two apparent things:
1. Nothing in Image 12 that are thought to be tangible objects look exactly like anything in NYC. Examples include The woman in dress, dress lion, stained glass window a fairly generic clock, etc. The firmest one is SOL face and even that one triggers debate.
2. OR – the other items thought to be tangible objects are so generic their matches are too numerous to count. Tall arch, Tall rectangle, Scottish Lion, purple square, yellow square, arch shaped things, 3 water droplets and colored dots.
Given the vagueness of the verses, it’s the same situation. Endless possibilities for ‘matches.’ Slender paths, arms, hard words, whirring, v’s. No Congress. No L sits. No Socrates, Pindar Apelles.

So any theory location using this approach ends up being something along the lines of: spot or path to spot includes a statue that sorta looks like the woman with arms, droning sounds, a tall arch, a tall rectangle near a stained glass window and a clock that contains roman numerals near a v. Which is fine but ends up being a theory that given those things is more or less no more persuasive than 10 other theories doing the same thing with different objects in 10 other spots.

There’s nothing wrong with trying to work the puzzle that way.

All I’m saying is – is anyone willing to consider that the puzzle may just work differently from that? That there may be meaning in the items JJP put into image 12 beyond just what they look like??

Thank you X for your insights and for constructively improving this conversation.
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Re: image 12

Postby Kang » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:00 pm

renovator wrote:... the most reasonable starting point that I can imagine is that while some of the puzzles are hard, and some are easy, all can be solved using just the Images and the Verses. As they appeared in the original book (although I'm inclined to think that a resonable reproduction works just fine for those of us who don't own a copy). That's not just my opinion. It's BP's contract with anyone who purchased the book.

Agree with you Renovator that it was up to BP to ensure that anyone who bought the book had the information (including information contained in the images as printed) that one would need in order to solve the puzzles. And I for one have confidence that he delivered on that.

However, I disagree that all one needs is image and verse. Can it be done only with those? Certainly. At least for two puzzles for sure. Is it the same for others? As yet to be determined. Is there a difference between what you really "need" vs. information elsewhere that might be "very helpful?" Possibly. I wouldn't argue that. Just my opinion.
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Re: image 12

Postby davinci4 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:43 pm

Hi Kang. I would agree that this puzzle could work differently than the others and ‘line by line’ the verses can have a significant amount of interpretations. However, I would argue that the verses do convergence to a single spot when viewed collectively. While I have heard many ideas of the verses discussed here and on the podcast, very few have narrowed it down to a single spot (or perhaps more have and just don’t wish to share it). Regardless, I wouldn’t classify the verses here as “vague” when the ‘whole is greater than the sum of the parts.’ I have looked at theories of Central Park, battery park, Staten Island etc. while they make interesting connections, they fail to connect the entirety of the verse with each individual line.

On a side note, I still can’t believe more people are not looking at south Brooklyn when south of Bedloes Island, Alexander Hamilton and Gershwin are staring you right in the face.
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Re: image 12

Postby renovator » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:45 pm

Is there a difference between what you really "need" vs. information elsewhere that might be "very helpful?

Fine. Just keep in mind that you are not arguing with me, or anyone who necessarily agrees with me. You are really arguing with BP, and what he said. And while there is ample evidence to suggest that BP was trying to trick us with his choice of words, there is very little evidence that he ever lied outright. And none, to date, to suggest that this "very helpful" information is actually helpful at all.
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Re: image 12

Postby Kang » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:28 pm

renovator wrote:You are really arguing with BP, and what he said.

Hi Ren. You're not entirely clear in your messages above but you seem to be saying that BP has said that "All you need is the image and the verse." If I have that right, I'm unfamiliar with this statement from BP or the source of it. Is it from an article/interview or can you point me in the right direction as to the source of this statement from BP?
Thank you!
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Re: image 12

Postby BINGO » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:36 pm

Page 34 covers it pretty well.
“Read the book”...

No venom intended. Just having fun.
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Re: image 12

Postby NYCNative » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:46 pm

BINGO wrote:Page 34 covers it pretty well.
“Read the book”...

No venom intended. Just having fun.


Right. Where it says the pairing of the verse and the image will lead you to a casque (*not all you need is those two things). That is not the question. The question is, are there any other clues in the book, other then verse and image, that would help?
Or are we to assume BP created a published a well written and researched allegory, paid the cost to publish it, with the only intention of distracting us from the puzzle and verse?
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Re: image 12

Postby BINGO » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:52 pm

Kang wrote:”All you need is the image and the verse." If I have that right, I'm unfamiliar with this statement from BP or the source of it. Is it from an article/interview or can you point me in the right direction as to the source of this statement from BP?


My response was directed at that statement only.
I wasn’t answering for Renovator nor was I attempting to address any other topic. I simply answered a question that seemed to contain a bit of irony when asked by Kang.
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Re: image 12

Postby Kang » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:56 pm

BINGO wrote:Page 34 covers it pretty well.
“Read the book”...
No venom intended. Just having fun.

Touche, BINGO. That was funny. No venom taken. Honest and serious discussion. And an important one I think.

Below is the text from page 34.
It certainly gives the instruction that we are to match an image to a verse.
Can we agree that it does not anywhere say "All you need is an image and an verse?"

It certainly also does not anywhere indicate that image and verse is the only information in the book that is either needed or helpful to solving the puzzle.

So any opinion as to what information is helpful/needed or not needed based solely on this page would depend that person's reading of unstated intentions here. Agreed?

Bottom line for me is - this page does not serve as any evidence that "BP said - All you need is the image and the verse."
So, if BP actually said that - I'd still like to pose the question as to what the source of this quote is." In all seriousness. And without malice. Thank you.

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Re: image 12

Postby BINGO » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:01 pm

Again, I have no intention to speak for Renovator, but his comment also makes me think of the quote from Priess that explained that the rest of the book was unnecessary to solve the puzzles. I believe it was reported by the Cleveland guys after their meeting with Preiss.
I may have it wrong, but I do believe there was much debate over the value of that statement and whether it was purposely misleading or fact.
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Re: image 12

Postby NYCNative » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:28 pm

BINGO wrote:Again, I have no intention to speak for Renovator, but his comment also makes me think of the quote from Priess that explained that the rest of the book was unnecessary to solve the puzzles. I believe it was reported by the Cleveland guys after their meeting with Preiss.
I may have it wrong, but I do believe there was much debate over the value of that statement and whether it was purposely misleading or fact.


I kind of remember something about that but if memory serves me correctly, the text that was said to be nonsense was the guide to the fair people. I am not 100% sure though.
Wasn't there an interview or article that spoke to how important the immigration story was to BP? Maybe from the podcast?
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Re: image 12

Postby BINGO » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:44 pm

Page 18 of threads.
Thread name: Cleveland
Page 4 in that thread.

Egbert wrote:
5.  B.Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations.  However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites.  He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have NO connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues.
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Re: image 12

Postby NYCNative » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:47 pm

BINGO wrote:Page 18 of threads.
Thread name: Cleveland
Page 4 in that thread.

Egbert wrote:
5.  B.Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations.  However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites.  He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have NO connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues.


That clears it up nicely, I think.
Gracias BINGO!
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Re: image 12

Postby XeroDM » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:19 am

Kang wrote:Thank you XeroDM!
XeroDM wrote:We're just not going to decide whether it's lavender purple or off-lavender purple. I am sure we all agree on that …
Totally agree here.

Given the flaws that we can’t control, here is an attempt to pose my question in a way that attempts to allow for XeroDM’s optical mixing. Without zooming in, is the color represented here (flawed though it is) closer to Purple or Maroon? My proposal is that it’s clearly closer to Purple. Others are welcome to judge and come to their own conclusion.
Image

XeroDM wrote:As for the image matches, I think it's more important to have a multiplicity of image and verse matches. Yes, there could be 1000 bowman statues, but if 500 of them had an "L" near them, you could rule out 500 statues, and if 250 had 10x13 near them, you can rule out more, and so on and so forth until you know which bowman statue you're looking for.. look for supporting other matches, and decrease the importance of anything that isn't supported by other things.

That is a common sense approach. And will work if this puzzle works like the solved ones did. However I propose that approach becomes exponentially more difficult given two apparent things:
1. Nothing in Image 12 that are thought to be tangible objects look exactly like anything in NYC. Examples include The woman in dress, dress lion, stained glass window a fairly generic clock, etc. The firmest one is SOL face and even that one triggers debate.
2. OR – the other items thought to be tangible objects are so generic their matches are too numerous to count. Tall arch, Tall rectangle, Scottish Lion, purple square, yellow square, arch shaped things, 3 water droplets and colored dots.
Given the vagueness of the verses, it’s the same situation. Endless possibilities for ‘matches.’ Slender paths, arms, hard words, whirring, v’s. No Congress. No L sits. No Socrates, Pindar Apelles.

So any theory location using this approach ends up being something along the lines of: spot or path to spot includes a statue that sorta looks like the woman with arms, droning sounds, a tall arch, a tall rectangle near a stained glass window and a clock that contains roman numerals near a v. Which is fine but ends up being a theory that given those things is more or less no more persuasive than 10 other theories doing the same thing with different objects in 10 other spots.

There’s nothing wrong with trying to work the puzzle that way.

All I’m saying is – is anyone willing to consider that the puzzle may just work differently from that? That there may be meaning in the items JJP put into image 12 beyond just what they look like??

Thank you X for your insights and for constructively improving this conversation.


Purple, and a slightly deeper shade is shown than the one you picked. That's what I see.
Having looked into all of the puzzles (some more deeply than others, I would suggest that you are 100% right in saying that they don't all work the same. There's no way SF and Charleston work the same way. SF has different parks with loads of statues, markers, etc. Charleston has very few parks with these things. SF verse has what can easily be fitted into a single path, point-to-point. Charleston verse has the word "or" used more than once. How can a single path have a "this way" or "that way" in it? Not likely. The pictures have different stylistic natures. SF can be construed as a map, Milwaukee would be almost impossible to find a map in. Boston and SF have a lot of picture similarities, etc.
Each location has a different set of variables in the environment, so the puzzles need to adapt to that. The materials that BP gave to JJP for each picture would undoubtedly have been different because he could or couldn't find maps of locations/ parks, some would not have distinctive buildings nearby, etc.
I have been playing around with making my own puzzles to see how they could have made the Secret, and that's what I have learnt. You can't attack every location the same way, it just doesn't always work with the variables at hand.
Plus... if they were all the same style of puzzle, once you found the formula for one, you have cracked the rest. And the formula has been cracked: Faerie, Gem, flower, clock. These are the constants, but none of these have anything to do with the city. They are laid on top as part of the story. The rest of the "clues" become very inconsistent quickly- Milwaukee rebus stands out as unique...
If the encoding of clues if different, we certainly should be looking at what possibilities were available to BP & JJP and start exploring them. They're all valid as you said!
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