The methodology discussion

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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby gManTexas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:14 pm

Golden,

Yes, I have taken this into account and it is discussed in my Methodology document.

For the purpose of discussion here, I agree that an emerald should be expensive and dictate the difficulty of the puzzle. It may have been a case where BP created this narrative and then was stuck with how it laid out, even though the Image and Verse are very simplistic.

If I recall, the guys in Chicago that found the casque got the gem appraised at around $1,200 - 1,500.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby GoldenMartyr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:38 pm

Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve?
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby gManTexas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:47 pm

GoldenMartyr wrote:Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve?


I wouldn't say that exactly. Making a general statement about the difficultly is not the same as saying "these two puzzles are not simple".

In terms of the gems, Cleveland was supposed to an aquamarine, one of the least expensive gems on the list. So we can throw that out.

For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it.

There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby UnprovenFact » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:51 pm

gManTexas wrote:For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it.

There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.


(Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) He also included a form to fill out if you thought you were close but didn't find anything. In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found.
What do you mean it's not there? It has to be there... Unless it is somewhere else.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby gManTexas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:54 pm

UnprovenFact wrote:
gManTexas wrote:For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it.

There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.


(Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found.


You just stepped into conspiracy theory territory. BP was alive for 23 years beyond the publication of the book.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby UnprovenFact » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:16 pm

gManTexas wrote:You just stepped into conspiracy theory territory. BP was alive for 23 years beyond the publication of the book.


...And if anytime in those 23 years a casque had finally been located where others had previously dug and turned up nothing, there would have been some question as to the rightful owner of the treasure (and braggin' rights). Not to mention the backlash towards everyone involved in the book. It would have been a huge letdown to know there were never buried treasures to begin with. So IF a treasure was not in place at the time the book was published, it would have been better to leave it that way than to go bury it later. IMO, of course.
What do you mean it's not there? It has to be there... Unless it is somewhere else.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby GoldenMartyr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:22 pm

gManTexas wrote:
GoldenMartyr wrote:Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve?


I wouldn't say that exactly. Making a general statement about the difficultly is not the same as saying "these two puzzles are not simple".

In terms of the gems, Cleveland was supposed to an aquamarine, one of the least expensive gems on the list. So we can throw that out.

For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it.

There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.


I did say simplest and not simple. I'm not willing to make any assumptions regarding time invested in each puzzle or even the possibility that time ran out. Both ideas may be valid but we are discussing methodology. A better question may be why did JJP believe Cleveland and Chicago were the simplest?(sorry, no supporting documents here, just hearsay over the years)

I look at it this way. Many people have a higher capacity to process visuals. I may be generalizing but artists could fall into this category. Many of The Secret hunters also fall into this category. Just look at all of the things they find in the paintings.

Byron wrote the verses and clearly had a great love of prose. So this begs the question, what was simple to Byron? Puzzle difficulty is somewhat subjective but attempting to understand what Byron may believe is simple based on what he created could lend some level of understanding to the statement he made regarding the value of the gems having a correlation with the difficulty of their puzzles.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby GoldenMartyr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:30 pm

UnprovenFact wrote:(Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) He also included a form to fill out if you thought you were close but didn't find anything. In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found.

This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby gManTexas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 pm

GoldenMartyr wrote:
gManTexas wrote:
GoldenMartyr wrote:Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve?


I wouldn't say that exactly. Making a general statement about the difficultly is not the same as saying "these two puzzles are not simple".

In terms of the gems, Cleveland was supposed to an aquamarine, one of the least expensive gems on the list. So we can throw that out.

For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it.

There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.


I did say simplest and not simple. I'm not willing to make any assumptions regarding time invested in each puzzle or even the possibility that time ran out. Both ideas may be valid but we are discussing methodology. A better question may be why did JJP believe Cleveland and Chicago were the simplest?(sorry, no supporting documents here, just hearsay over the years)

I look at it this way. Many people have a higher capacity to process visuals. I may be generalizing but artists could fall into this category. Many of The Secret hunters also fall into this category. Just look at all of the things they find in the paintings.

Byron wrote the verses and clearly had a great love of prose. So this begs the question, what was simple to Byron? Puzzle difficulty is somewhat subjective but attempting to understand what Byron may believe is simple based on what he created could lend some level of understanding to the statement he made regarding the value of the gems having a correlation with the difficulty of their puzzles.



I don't know if we can truly answer these questions, and even if he was alive today, would he spill the beans?

The amount of time spent on each puzzle is a valid question, and it is somewhat elementary to posit which puzzles were very involved, even if they are rather simple. Even if we have to work backwards from the most involved puzzles.

Milwaukee is a great example of a relatively well researched and obscure clue laden puzzle, even though the walk through is more or less straightforward. The prize for Milwaukee is an Amethyst. It is one of the cheapest gems on the list.

I would argue that Chicago was infinitively easier from both a scale and visual perspective. Everything in that puzzle is within a couple block radius and well defined. Milwaukee is a long slog.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby BINGO » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:02 pm

Preiss lived and grew up in NYC, he wouldn’t need to spend much time to create a puzzle there. It has been speculated that Palencar and the writers may have taken part in the puzzles for their respective home base. To me, this makes perfect sense when thinking about time, budget and general efficiency for the project.

As far as the length of the “walking path” from iconic image to casque site, there are people who simply don’t believe that it needs to be a walking path at all. I’m not necessarily one of them, but both Cleveland and Chicago were “recovered” without the need to start at the water tower or the terminal tower. If Milwaukee’s city hall wasn’t in the image, would we be so convinced that it was actually in Milwaukee? It seems that they all play more of a role as the city confirmer rather than the beginning of the path. To me, more potential evidence that a local to the area (during the time period) would have an advantage.
Last edited by BINGO on Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby UnprovenFact » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:03 pm

GoldenMartyr wrote:This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales.


Obviously the goal was to sell books... that is the goal for any author, publisher, company, etc. More publicity equals (hopefully) more sales. So it would need to be marketed as widely as possible. The broadest market is the world. However, worldwide, not everyone will have the resources to physically go to the twelve chosen treasure cities in North America. So, if the world is my market, and I want every reader to have an equal opportunity to claim a treasure, I would include a form and instructions for anyone who thinks they know the correct location but are unable to personally dig up a treasure. Am I correct? And IF the intent is to make it possible for anyone (worldwide) to claim a treasure, then it would seem that each puzzle could potentially be solved without ever leaving home. In that case, we are back to going to the local library and not necessarily a strictly boots-on-the-ground approach. Although, I would think some of the clues would be missed if one couldn't get to the specific site. This may have been covered already, but do we know if the book was ever sold without the treasure hunt part included?
What do you mean it's not there? It has to be there... Unless it is somewhere else.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby gManTexas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:20 pm

UnprovenFact wrote:
GoldenMartyr wrote:This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales.


Obviously the goal was to sell books... that is the goal for any author, publisher, company, etc. More publicity equals (hopefully) more sales. So it would need to be marketed as widely as possible. The broadest market is the world. However, worldwide, not everyone will have the resources to physically go to the twelve chosen treasure cities in North America. So, if the world is my market, and I want every reader to have an equal opportunity to claim a treasure, I would include a form and instructions for anyone who thinks they know the correct location but are unable to personally dig up a treasure. Am I correct? And IF the intent is to make it possible for anyone (worldwide) to claim a treasure, then it would seem that each puzzle could potentially be solved without ever leaving home. In that case, we are back to going to the local library and not necessarily a strictly boots-on-the-ground approach. Although, I would think some of the clues would be missed if one couldn't get to the specific site. This may have been covered already, but do we know if the book was ever sold without the treasure hunt part included?


I think it would have been tough to not be on-site and that holds true for today. If for no other reason, to look at the scale and see the clues. The way I interpreted the claim form in the book is two fold.

1. We include everyone. This would also be older people who maybe had knowledge but not the inclination or faculties to go dig. The Chicago guys got some recommendations from uncles or something along those lines.

2. The searcher get to the area and either choses not to dig because they are skittish, not capable, or they don't have the tools. In 1982 we didn't just run to the hardware store and buy tools whenever we wanted.

So, you could submit the form and see if the publisher would give you the golden ticket. In the case of Chicago, he assisted the guys.

In 1982, it would have been difficult to fully decipher these puzzles remotely. Not impossible, with enough research and maybe some phone calls, but tough. I think the idea of this being a worldwide accessible hunt is a stretch. In fact, other than marketing to some well heeled travelers, I am surprised that there was a Japanese edition of the book.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby GoldenMartyr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:26 pm

UnprovenFact wrote:
GoldenMartyr wrote:This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales.


Obviously the goal was to sell books...


I was simply responding to your suggestion that the reason the form, etc. may have been included because some of the casques were not in the ground. Sorry, no way....
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby BINGO » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:59 pm

GoldenMartyr wrote:Not exactly. The Japanese hints state - ....if I gave you any hint at all, it will immediately solve the riddle....

Let's examine that statement. There is no mention of the Boston puzzle being easier or simpler. I see two potential reasons for the statement.

1. There is a difficult method, that once understood, will allow you to easily decipher the clues.
2. Hints are based on keywords listed in the Japanese book. There is no good way to hint at the keywords without giving away the answer to one of them.


Please stop trying to hurt my feelings. That hint is my only hope that is still intact.
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Re: The methodology discussion

Postby maltedfalcon » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:20 pm

gManTexas wrote: In 1982 we didn't just run to the hardware store and buy tools whenever we wanted.

That's because the garage was already full of tools.
They were made by Craftsman, Stanley and True-Temper and they lasted for decades
and we walked to our casque sites (uphill both ways) in 10 foot drifts of snow.
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