Quest4Treasure Archives

MF And....?

maltedfalcon wrote:: Just re-applied for permission to dig at Lincoln park. I will keep you all posted on the progress. due to some constraints at the park, I probably won't be able to dig until January. Good luck. I seem to recall you having dug in this area previously, so I'm glad that park officials are open to this -- that's one less headache. In my mind, I would want to try in two spots just below the parking lot perimeter: 1) along the line formed by Joan of Arc and Betsy Ross Flagpole 2) in the same northern angle from the Flagpole that Joan of Arc is traveling. I wish you all the best!

dietrologia wrote:: Good luck. I seem to recall you having dug in this area previously, so I'm glad that park officials are open to this -- that's one less headache. In my mind, I would want to try in two spots just below the parking lot perimeter: 1) along the line formed by Joan of Arc and Betsy Ross Flagpole 2) in the same northern angle from the Flagpole that Joan of Arc is traveling. I wish you all the best! with permission, I have actually dug in this are 3 times, and have two more spots to check in between my digs someone else dug and left a mess, I almost got in trouble for it. It makes it more difficult to get permission and now they are actively watching for diggers. There is a 24 hour guard right next to the area at one of the memorials, and they have instructed him to call in suspicious behavior. before it was just me and the groundskeeper, now it has to be authorized from higher up. it takes a little longer.

I just received a reply from the Legion of Honor. They were not aware of any names given to the two lions out front.

dietrologia wrote:: I just received a reply from the Legion of Honor. They were not aware of any names given to the two lions out front. I checked that a while back and I also checked on the two statues. just in case the plaques said something similar. no luck

maltedfalcon wrote:: I checked that a while back and I also checked on the two statues. just in case the plaques said something similar. no luck Yeah, this is all low-hanging fruit, I guess. Sorry to be treading over old ground.

Hey all, new here, but I come from Something Awful where there are a lot of similar theories and a crazy huge thread. I agree that the GGP map is the iconic image. For me, however, the iconic image was the representation of the Huntington falls. I first saw the picture a few years ago, and I thought "Hey, those rocks look a ton like the Huntington Falls. Nah, it's just an inkblot and I'm seeing what I want to see." It wasn't until today that I realized I should've given more credit to what I saw. San Francisco native by the way, although I now live 500 miles south in Pasadena I don't think this is one of those "stand where you can see all the landmarks" puzzle. Not that anyone suggested it was, but its just impossible to see anything in GGP with all the growth, unless you're on top of Strawberry hill. So we need to find something to give us specifics. So far, that has been in the image & the verse (Seek the columns for the search + the picture of the wall, Fence and Fixture + the picture of the post.) So, I'd like to explore what elements of the picture can also be found in the verse, and vice-versa. Not that EVERY picture has the same rules, but so far two have had them and they've BOTH been the final piece to the location, so that's what I'm working on. So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon. Glad to be here, thanks for this site.

drunknerds wrote:: So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon. Glad to be here, thanks for this site. Welcome drunk. The only thing I see linkable between verse and image is the gate in the cliffs of the image and the mention of a stonewall's door in the verse. If you want a systematic sort of indicator for how to connect the images to some cultural theme, then read the Litany of the Jewels. I don't think there's much to go on when it comes to looking for a solid connection.

drunknerds wrote:: So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon. yes, the object of twain's attention features prominently in the image. more tomorrow...

drunknerds wrote:: (Seek the columns for the search + the picture of the wall, Fence and Fixture + the picture of the post.) So, I'd like to explore what elements of the picture can also be found in the verse, and vice-versa. Not that EVERY picture has the same rules, but so far two have had them and they've BOTH been the final piece to the location. Unknown: they've both been the final piece to the location Good point. Welcome to the forum. I wondered if the grass in Image 6 represented the 'green picket fence'. (Not necessarily this one.) Maybe that could fit the pattern. More abstract though. I guess the 'tall tree' would be more obvious. I'm not sure how close the columns at the entrance to the Greek Garden were to the planter where the casque was buried. Were they both visible from the same spot...? Is this the planter between them, or something else...?

maltedfalcon wrote:: yes, the object of twain's attention features prominently in the image. more tomorrow... Did the "more tomorrow" happen yet?

Merlot Brougham wrote:: Did the "more tomorrow" happen yet? more importantly, the giant pole I was working off didn't exist in 1981 so just ignore my comment.

Which pole is that?

erexere wrote:: Which pole is that? The Betsy Ross Memorial Flagpole was taken down in 1972

Oh? I thought we had some indication from aerial imagery that there was a pole and shadow of what looks like a flag. It was kinda blurry so I dont know for sure.

erexere wrote:: Oh? I thought we had some indication from aerial imagery that there was a pole and shadow of what looks like a flag. It was kinda blurry so I dont know for sure. I was told by groundskeepers, the remembered it was removed in 1992 when they added the statue garden but I spoke with the local museum which had pictures of the parking lot in the late 70's sans pole. pictures trump memories...

By chance was it brought down temporarily for resto work or inspection after some major wind storm or for earthquake readiness?

erexere wrote:: By chance was it brought down temporarily for resto work or inspection after some major wind storm or for earthquake readiness? Sadly no the pole was removed as were all the shrubs around the fountain and then the parkinglot was paved.

Such unsettling news, thanks for your hard work maltedfalcon.

I was thinking about that "court" idea for the "scene where law defended" in terms of Golden Gate Park, which has courts of various kinds, including tennis courts. "H" - eighth letter in the dragon's tail...? Bit of a stretch, but that's where the courts are. The nearby Conservatory of Flowers has a white greenhouse which could pass for the "white house". So many curious and interesting features tucked away in this park, like the old "Horseshoe Pits" in that corner. http://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ho ... -park.html http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/gold ... shoe-pitch (Are horseshoes mentioned in the back of the book by any chance...?) Between two arms extended Embedded in the sand

Chinese years of the dragon in Golden Gate Park... 1916 Cervantes 1928 Shakespeare (inc rose poem) 1940 Fuschia Dell ...1952, 1964... 1976 Teng-Hui Lee visits San Fransisco and announces that they intend to bestow a gift from China...the temple. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o2o ... le&f=false (This one presumably?)

Between two arms extended Below the bar that binds Beside the long palm's shadow Embedded in the sand "Remorse, or Sphinx Embedded in the Sand " is a Dali painting. With his books like "Imagine a Day", Preiss was surely a Dali fan. Maybe he was one of the inspirations for this image. Sphinxes in Golden Gate Park: Perhaps buried by a palm between these two, with "arms extended". "Seen here by eyes of old" fits. The Sphinx is also described as "cruel". (The "cruel and bold" line isn't from Treasure Island.) Wonder if "Below the bar that binds" is just a repetition of "Embedded in the sand", the bar that binds being a sandbar. GGP was carved out of sand dunes. I think the verse could work, though a visual confirmer would be good. Dunno if there's a white house nearby. Roosevelt was called The Sphinx.

The illustration might be conveying through symbols that its at a place where you stand up to watch something.

I've read all 66 pages of posts. I know that Apollo 11 was mentioned for the 11 moons but did anyone ever tie in the Apollo 11 and SF Giants Baseball theory about Gaylord Perry #36. http://www.chicagonow.com/my-sports-com ... -home-run/ Giant pole, Giant step, To the place, The casque is kept. - Could mean Candlestick Park which is where the Giants played and was sometimes called the North Pole due to cold temps or the Stick. Giant step could refer to the moon landing. On the same day that Apollo 11 landed on the moon Giants player (pitcher) Gaylord Perry (jersey #36) hit a homerun which was notable as he was a great pitcher but not a very good hitter and it was quoted as saying that "They'll Land on the Moon Before Gaylord Perry Hits a Home Run" ... which he did that day after the moon landing. Sunday, July 20, 1969. In the Candlestick Park area there is a street called Key Ave. This could be the location of the Casque, located just a step away from a large pole. Bayview Park is up that way off Key Ave which people call a secret hidden gem of a park. The primary trail is a paved road that loops through the park, beginning and ending at the eastern end of Key Avenue. Remnants of stairs and retaining walls built by the Works Progress Administration during the Depression can still be seen along the roadway. Potentially the casque could be buried next to the old stairs as they are giant steps. The stairs are made of stones and twist and turn like a dragon. There is a very old antenna up that way which was one of the first major antennas in the SF area. It's owner is Ihr Educational Broadcasting. Part of the "Education" for all to see. I think you could see the old former SF County Jail #3 San Bruno which was opened in 1934 to 2006 and demolished in 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Franc ... unty_Jails Maybe this would be the Justice for all to see from the park vantage point. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... _Francisco ) There is also a rock formation called Indian Head Rock and a 1934 Art Deco radio tower building designed by Julia Morgan and built by the William Randolph Hearst Company http://bayarearadio.org/schneider/kya_site.shtml . The building has the same lines as the top of the womans dress as well as what look like similar geometric shapes in the same line of the G and H. The building now looks like this and is behind fences with razor/barb wire. When I went to research the building I found out Alcatraz opened in 1934. Which led me to research other 1934 stuff. http://www.timelines.ws/cities/SF_C_1930_1959.HTML From the loop of Bayview you can see everything. It's a 360 degree view of SF. You can spy Sutro Tower, the new (and old) Bay Bridge, hwy 101 ... and of course hear sounds from the sky (highway traffic sounds like it is in the sky as well as the airplane traffic above). What is notable about Julia Morgan is that she was quite awesome. http://www.sfcityguides.org/public_guid ... &topic=San She was the architect for Hearst Castle and Hearst and Twain were reportedly very good friends. Although I doubt that is the object of Twains attention. These are my thoughts. I would love to hear feedback.

I was in San Fran last month for work, but found a little time to do some sightseeing. I didn't have The Secret on my mind at all. We took the Powell Street cable car up to Fisherman's Wharf, and as we neared the wharf, I saw a portion of the big Ghirardelli Square sign from the back (and to the side). All I could see was the "Gh" and maybe the "i" due to other buildings and trees, and it instantly reminded me of this image. It happened so fast, but it struck me that the "G" and "h" in this image are also reversed, and maybe this is why. One of the SF photos that Preiss gave JJP from which to paint the picture must have been taken from a point south of Ghirardelli Square. Here's about the only picture I can find from behind the sign, but it has fewer obstructions.

Jambone wrote:: I was in San Fran last month for work, but found a little time to do some sightseeing. I didn't have The Secret on my mind at all. We took the Powell Street cable car up to Fisherman's Wharf, and as we neared the wharf, I saw a portion of the big Ghirardelli Square sign from the back (and to the side). All I could see was the "Gh" and maybe the "i" due to other buildings and trees, and it instantly reminded me of this image. It happened so fast, but it struck me that the "G" and "h" in this image are also reversed, and maybe this is why. One of the SF photos that Preiss gave JJP from which to paint the picture must have been taken from a point south of Ghirardelli Square. Here's about the only picture I can find from behind the sign, but it has fewer obstructions. Agreed completely. I also think the Ghirardelli sign is fundamental in linking the image to verse 7 with "At stone wall's door The air smells sweet". Its quite possibly giving you a starting point not unlike the three stories of mitchell. I think the view from atop the hill is to the reversed GH is important

Merlot Brougham wrote:: This is the image 2 thread so I wont discuss the frustration involved in the Image 1 "Gh" being the Ghirardelli building. Occam's Razor: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. In 1980 the Golden Gate Park Tourist map had the Great highway labeled using the font that was identical to these letters. when you reversed the dress it superimposed directly over the park as outlined on the map and the G and H sat on the Great Highway part of the map, also the H in Highway was lower case. Since the G and the H are on the great highway and the map lines up with the tourist map exactly. Ghirardelli square probably has nothing to do with this hunt.

Edit: Never mind, I see all this was discussed 7-8 years ago.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I was aware of the Great Highway theory but not about the tourist map. Are there any existing images of said map?

Merlot Brougham wrote:: Are there any existing images of said map? I am sure there are, unfortunately not online, The forum we used before Quest4treasure had the images but I cant even remember the name of that forum, heck it might have been geocities. my bet would be the SF library has a copy of it somewhere in their archives. If I was worried about it I would look there. Other than that I am not sure where you would look, anything online now is pretty much current and not the map I am talking about. The other interesting part of the map is that the lower half of North lake, matched the weird blue shape to the left of the ladies head.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I am sure there are, unfortunately not online, The forum we used before Quest4treasure had the images but I cant even remember the name of that forum, heck it might have been geocities. my bet would be the SF library has a copy of it somewhere in their archives. If I was worried about it I would look there. Other than that I am not sure where you would look, anything online now is pretty much current and not the map I am talking about. The other interesting part of the map is that the lower half of North lake, matched the weird blue shape to the left of the ladies head. Thanks for the info on that.

Saw this familiar scene when i looked up Chastity on Wikipedia while thinking about the LotJ reference to the chaste pearl.

Saw this familiar scene when i looked up Chastity on Wikipedia while thinking about the LotJ reference to the chaste pearl.

Not to feed your fire here, but that reminded me of Benjamin Franklin's 13 Virtues , and there are 13 nations of Fair People. Also Aristotle's 12 Virtues, but chastity didn't make his list. And yet Benny was the one who got syphilis from some French chick.

Not to feed your fire here, but that reminded me of Benjamin Franklin's 13 Virtues , and there are 13 nations of Fair People. Also Aristotle's 12 Virtues, but chastity didn't make his list. And yet Benny was the one who got syphilis from some French chick.

Thanks for sharing the Franklin information. Here's the side by side of my earlier post,

Thanks for sharing the Franklin information. Here's the side by side of my earlier post,

erexere wrote:: Thanks for sharing the Franklin information. Here's the side by side of my earlier post, That pictures very interesting. Have you found any connections to the SF area? Only connection I can find which is very obscure is that Melming was a citizen of Bruges, Belgium. MH De Youngs parents were Dutch and French which is on the northern and southern borders of Belgium. So very weak connection. Couldn't find any information if the painting was ever displayed in SF, let alone the US.

erexere wrote:: Thanks for sharing the Franklin information. Here's the side by side of my earlier post, That pictures very interesting. Have you found any connections to the SF area? Only connection I can find which is very obscure is that Melming was a citizen of Bruges, Belgium. MH De Youngs parents were Dutch and French which is on the northern and southern borders of Belgium. So very weak connection. Couldn't find any information if the painting was ever displayed in SF, let alone the US.

The only connection I am suggesting is that the painting could be something discovered in an art, history or religious studies book and serves as a template for the subject of purity or moral conduct. It isnt required that we find find this painting, but it does appeal to the idea that some deeper thematic connections are involved. The Litany of the Jewels poem gives us the word "chaste' for the pearl puzzle. I have a theory that each couplet in the lirany contains an important clue or insight on how to approach the solutions. Thinking about moral conduct may have an implications that suit using Alcatraz as the consequence for failing in these morals. Or the analagy of Heavan and Hell might be suitable to incorporating August Rodin's works at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. I'm referring to the Gates of Hell, which incorporate the Three Shades and Thinker. Also, the air smells sweet could be a good example of a temptation.

The only connection I am suggesting is that the painting could be something discovered in an art, history or religious studies book and serves as a template for the subject of purity or moral conduct. It isnt required that we find find this painting, but it does appeal to the idea that some deeper thematic connections are involved. The Litany of the Jewels poem gives us the word "chaste' for the pearl puzzle. I have a theory that each couplet in the lirany contains an important clue or insight on how to approach the solutions. Thinking about moral conduct may have an implications that suit using Alcatraz as the consequence for failing in these morals. Or the analagy of Heavan and Hell might be suitable to incorporating August Rodin's works at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. I 'm referring to the Gates of Hell, which incorporate the Three Shades and Thinker. Also, the air smells sweet could be a good example of a temptation.

The "Fucanglong" dragon is the keeper of treasures, who creates volcanos "inferno?" When reporting to heaven. It's wingless yet can fly. (V5?) http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/m/page/Fucanglong Wikipedia also mentions the Fucanglong posseses a magic or presious pearl as his most important treasure. The pearl will usually be found around the dragons neck. I would assume this has been mentioned before?

The "Fucanglong" dragon is the keeper of treasures, who creates volcanos "inferno?" When reporting to heaven. It's wingless yet can fly. (V5?) http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/m/page/Fucanglong Wikipedia also mentions the Fucanglong posseses a magic or presious pearl as his most important treasure. The pearl will usually be found around the dragons neck. I would assume this has been mentioned before?

I dont recall it being mentioned. The importance of the dragon to the puzzle idea is something that took me to some biblical interpretation tho. I 'm thinking GoldenGate=Heaven, Dragon=Gate to Hell.

I dont recall it being mentioned. The importance of the dragon to the puzzle idea is something that took me to some biblical interpretation tho. I'm thinking GoldenGate=Heaven, Dragon=Gate to Hell.

http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-m ... -francisco I love finding things like this. Mark twain writing about his experience in the 1868 San Francisco earth quake, after that of 1906. It's drawn to his attention that himself and others were not frightened by the experience. He does compare San Francisco to hell. This was found after thinking of the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fire, being hellish. Was wondering if it perhaps had a starting point like pudding lane in London.

http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-m ... -francisco I love finding things like this. Mark twain writing about his experience in the 1868 San Francisco earth quake, after that of 1906. It's drawn to his attention that himself and others were not frightened by the experience. He does compare San Francisco to hell. This was found after thinking of the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fire, being hellish. Was wondering if it perhaps had a starting point like pudding lane in London.

Ashsimmonds wrote:: I would assume this has been mentioned before? Actually I have never heard that link! good catch!

Ashsimmonds wrote:: I would assume this has been mentioned before? Actually I have never heard that link! good catch!

Using "chaste" as a hint about moral conduct, and the letters G and h as a hint to reverse the image but also to think of initials G and H, we have Gates of Heaven/Hell. Failed moral conduct = Prison/Alcatraz and the gate on the image in the background looks like the best choice for a prison motif. Successful or good conduct = Heaven or crossing the Golden Gate which looks like the symmetrical shape bound between teh letters G and h. I think these two points are linked to the map and result in fixing the orientation of the table top/watch/rose as a corresponding location on the map for Lands End and the Palace of the Legion of Honor.

Using "chaste" as a hint about moral conduct, and the letters G and h as a hint to reverse the image but also to think of initials G and H, we have Gates of Heaven/Hell. Failed moral conduct = Prison/Alcatraz and the gate on the image in the background looks like the best choice for a prison motif. Successful or good conduct = Heaven or crossing the Golden Gate which looks like the symmetrical shape bound between teh letters G and h. I think these two points are linked to the map and result in fixing the orientation of the table top/watch/rose as a corresponding location on the map for Lands End and the Palace of the Legion of Honor.

The hands pointing to a 3 and a 4 have been suggested as a street number hint since the Palace of the Legion of Honor and Golden Gate Park share 34th street. I noticed that Dante's Inferno, the inspiration for Rodin's Gates of Hell sculpture, is divided up into 34 Cantos. In the fjnal Cantos, Dante passes into the 9th Circle of Hell which is held up, not by columns but by Giants themselves. I wonder if Giant Pole / Giant Step ties into the numbers 31-34 or the 8th-9th circle somehow. Like near the 9th hole on the golf course or 9th bench along the roadway overlooking the GGB.

The hands pointing to a 3 and a 4 have been suggested as a street number hint since the Palace of the Legion of Honor and Golden Gate Park share 34th street. I noticed that Dante's Inferno, the inspiration for Rodin's Gates of Hell sculpture, is divided up into 34 Cantos. In the fjnal Cantos, Dante passes into the 9th Circle of Hell which is held up, not by columns but by Giants themselves. I wonder if Giant Pole / Giant Step ties into the numbers 31-34 or the 8th-9th circle somehow. Like near the 9th hole on the golf course or 9th bench along the roadway overlooking the GGB.

I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California.

I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California.

Toasty wrote:: I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California. Well spotted! espcially if the image is reversed!

Toasty wrote:: I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California. Well spotted! espcially if the image is reversed!

The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity.

The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007-- I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity.

Frisco wrote:: The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007-- I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity. I said well spotted, not it's new.

Frisco wrote:: The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity. I said well spotted, not it's new.

An idea I'm using to guestimate a position based on recognizing the shape of the woman's head is very similar to the parking lot shape. I'm still interested in an area off the road that looks out over the Golden Gate Bridge. This is a rough comparison of a bench location to the cliff gate.

http://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=342 Interestingly, a line drawn from this small single-door structure on the side of a cliff known as Diablo Point and c9nne ted to Alcatraz forms a nice intersection with the Golden Gate Bridge that looks like a Cross on the map. Would it be acceptable to consider the name Diablo as a connection to a Dragon?

I have decided to go ahead and post what I think is a viable solution for the San Francisco puzzle. I am not going to be able to get out there any time soon so I am hoping maltedfalcon or someone else close will have a chance to check out my theory. So here goes. First, the poem. At stone wall's door the air smells sweet. - Because of its proximity to the Conservatory of Flowers area I think this refers to the Haight Street entrance that passes under Kezar Drive. Not far away high posts are three. - I have no idea what this might be without being in the area to check. Education and Justice for all to see. - Education = California Academy of Sciences Justice = tennis courts?? Sounds from the sky near Ace is high Running north, but first across - Highway 1 In jewels direction is an object of Twain's attention. - Fulton Street Giant pole Giant step - This is the key in my opinion. The trunk of a giant redwood is called a "giant pole". Find a particular redwood in the park and take a giant step from it towards Fulton Street. To the place the casque is kept. - Hopefully we are there. Okay, the problem now is which redwood? To the painting. I am not going to rehash all of the obvious like the jewel, clock, rose, longitude and latitude, Golden Gate Park, etc. I want to concentrate on a couple of things. First and foremost is the rocks. I do not believe they are rocks. The very first time I looked at this picture the first thing that came to my mind was the bark of redwood trees. Another important thing, I contacted the Sequoia National Park headquarters and asked this question - Does the bark pattern change significantly on a Redwood in 35 years time? Their answer was no. So I believe that concealed in those "rocks" may be the bark pattern of a tree in GGP. But which tree? That brings me to my second item, her hands. I believe she is pointing out streets. In particular, because of the orientation of the park in the picture, 3rd and 4th streets. Across Fulton Street between 3rd and 4th street there is a single Redwood. Could this be the tree? I had planned on going and checking that out by using the painting and bark patterns but maybe someone that lives in the area can check it out and save me the drive from Houston. If you connect 3rd and 4th street on the north side of the park to 3rd and 4th streets on the south side of the park, maybe the tree is between those two lines. The National Aids Memorial Grove of redwoods is located within these lines. I did not see any redwoods bordering Lincoln Way using Google between 3rd and 4th streets but that area should not be overlooked if nothing turns up in the other areas. When looking at the trees on Google you have to differentiate between the redwoods and the giant sycamores that have a much smoother bark. The redwoods generally have flat tops. So there you have my idea on the GGP solution and determining the exact location using references in the painting and poem. Good luck to all.

TexWriter wrote:: I have decided to go ahead and post what I think is a viable solution for the San Francisco puzzle. I am not going to be able to get out there any time soon so I am hoping maltedfalcon or someone else close will have a chance to check out my theory. Very interesting! Although the National AIDS Memorial was conceived in 1988 (way after the the fact) and was renovated in September 1991. That would probably be bad as they tend to move and dig up stuff, who knows what was there before. Also, 3rd and 4th ave are not really near HW 1. The hints in the two found treasures all seem to have locations that are really close together, but this SF one has people all over GG park...

TexWriter wrote:: That brings me to my second item, her hands. I believe she is pointing out streets. In particular, because of the orientation of the park in the picture, 3rd and 4th streets. Across Fulton Street between 3rd and 4th street there is a single Redwood. Could this be the tree? I had planned on going and checking that out by using the painting and bark patterns but maybe someone that lives in the area can check it out and save me the drive from Houston. If you connect 3rd and 4th street on the north side of the park to 3rd and 4th streets on the south side of the park, maybe the tree is between those two lines. The National Aids Memorial Grove of redwoods is located within these lines. I did not see any redwoods bordering Lincoln Way using Google between 3rd and 4th streets but that area should not be overlooked if nothing turns up in the other areas. When looking at the trees on Google you have to differentiate between the redwoods and the giant sycamores that have a much smoother bark. The redwoods generally have flat tops. So there you have my idea on the GGP solution and determining the exact location using references in the painting and poem. Good luck to all. I explored the area this morning. Most of the space between 3rd and 4th ave is heavy foliage. There are not that many place one can get to easily. I started on Fulton and walked all the way through to the AIDs memorial. Tomorrow I will start on the Lincoln side of the park and look around that half. I'm thinking this is not the place. The other clues in the painting seem to be clustered farther away.

FYI the area where the aids memorial is was all torn out and re-landscaped at one point, even the areas where its just overgrowth were taken down to dirt, I think they were getting rid of invasive species and such. not the trees though

I kind of figured they had redone that area when they dedicated it and all. The good news is that they didn't move any of the trees. lol That might be a little hard. Plus we are only interested in one giant step from the base of the tree so that should be ok as well unless they poured concrete right up against the tree. Again, it is only a thought. Thanks for the info maltedfalcon. Also, thanks Jordan for taking the time to walk around out there. I still hope to make it out into that area some time I just don't know when it will be.

GG, Thanks for joining in! I think it's a big plus that you are remembering how things use to be in SF. Things seem more and more out of sync with the paintings as the landmarks change with the passage of time. Do you have any theory on a verse for this image? I've been working verse7 for SF. When I get to the line about a "giant step" I wonder if it has something to do with the Baseball team. Baseball steps might be those square bases that players step on, the five sided home plate or up on the pictures mound?

FYI I'm on the ground in SF if anyone needs a location checked out or scouted.

Hey everyone, first time posting here. I'm glad to see so much attention paid to the Legion of honor area as I had it in my solution. However I was working backwards. I had started at the sutro baths then worked my way to the LOH, from there I was convinced we needed to move towards GGP somehow but I couldn't rectify it. Working away from GGP makes so much more sense. Anyway, the reason I'm posting is because I think I've hit a match for the shape in the cliff. http://landscapevoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/8173941411_15c87d1a9d_b.jpg If you look at the opening that lines up with the shoreline you get a highly similar shape to the one over our girls right shoulder. More over, I've looked at a ton of pictures of that thing over the past few hours and I'm convinced its shape has been changed over the years due to pieces breaking off. Regardless, not a perfect match but really damned close. I'm in San Jose so I may go take a look this weekend and see what I can figure out up close.

Just following up my previous post with a better pic of the opening at sutro baths. http://blogs.mercurynews.com/eat-drink-play/files/2014/02/sutro.jpg

Goldengate wrote:: Hey Jerm, it looks like the location you're referencing was discussed here a year or so ago: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&p=128011&hilit=sutro#p128011 I can see why it looks like a winner -- the location itself is amazing and the Sutro Baths have kind of a magical feel about them. I know in the thread there was some discussion about the dirt and elements not making it a great place to bury a casque and having been there myself, it seemed like a valid argument. But definitely check out that link... it includes a pretty convincing animated gif. Yeah I saw it but theres not much info. Plus, I'm specifically addressing the hole in the cliffs matching the blue blob in the painting rather than the cliffs themselves. Its a huge clue, or at least a prominent feature that I haven't seen anyone identify yet. I'm not sold myself that the casque is at the baths. I am saying 3 things though. 1 That cave is definitely the inspiration for the one in the painting. 2 The baths might be the start/end point for our walking tour that priess was taking us on. 3. If it is the end point, my biggest fear is that the casque is gone with the relocation of the totem pole at the cliff house since the vantage point from its previous location overlooks the cliffs and this feature, and as we all know that is under concrete now. I'd also like to add one more thing that I haven't seen addressed enough. Adolph Sutro and Mark Twain were big time buddies from their days in Virginia city. So much so that theres a record of letters that they sent back and forth. If we think about how letters and telegrams were addressed back in the day, there was often "Attn of :" associated with the recipient. Though I'll be the first to admit I haven't found that exact wording in the letters I've looked at. In the end it's not too much of a stretch I think.

Another SF South Bay resident chiming in here, me. I don't drive to SF much, and have not been inspired yet to do so, even for possible new leads. I still haven't followed up on one image I found online which matches the face in the stone mountain better than anything I've seen. I can't remember where I found it, and I only have a date from 2011 because that's when I grabbed it off the Internet, so I have no idea how long ago the photo was really taken nor where specifically the location is. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... res/4y1309 Look to the left of center for a long diagonal line of rock, and just to the right of that will be the "face" that I think everyone refers to. (I *just* created an account on flickr to upload this, and i can do some photoshopping later to combine the similar areas from both images for comparison later.) I don't discount the matches with Chinese and Buddhist imagery as suggested above, but if these are common symbols then it might be a thematic inclusion and not a location-specific clue. I also cannot see exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at in the Sutro Bath photo above, but I take your word for it that you see a match, just as you have to assume I'm seeing a similar match in mine. (returned to add) I added a zoom and comparison image. https://flic.kr/p/DLf6gT

catherwood wrote:: I also cannot see exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at in the Sutro Bath photo above, but I take your word for it that you see a match, just as you have to assume I'm seeing a similar match in mine. http://imgur.com/nhYLtDM&q5yEPR3 This shape right here. Kinda hard to get a good shot of it that isn't partially blocked or too far away or badly lit. It seems to be very affected by shadows, giving it a variable appearance at times. From what I've seen, the left hand side may have been altered by erosion or human action over the past 30 years. And even then I'm only zeroing in on the upper half of the opening.

catherwood -- it looks like you found that picture here: http://www.berbec.com/rberbec/images/photos/1/2/630/index.html Several good pictures of the area, including the totem pole. Makes you wonder -- could the casque have been buried simply a "giant step" (5 feet) from where the pole was located in 1981? Is it that simple?

Thats an intriguing location. Maybe that portion of the story about four indians riding on the same horse is analogous to multiple totems stacked on a pole.

forest_blight wrote:: -- could the casque have been buried simply a "giant step" (5 feet) from where the pole was located in 1981? Is it that simple? (Thank you for finding my historical link.) Yes, I think it used to be just that simple. However, in which direction would you take that giant step? My fantasy is that the totem pole was right on the edge of the hill overlooking the ocean, and the giant step would be straight down the cliff onto the sandy beach. Would a cask been easy to bury down four feet into the sand? Would it have survived a season of tides, within the few months the contest was expected to have been solved? I haven't been to the site, so I cannot say how much the shoreline has changed over the decades, due to both weathering and construction. Should we go and have a dig anyway? We can dream.

No, I meant simply a few feet directly behind the totem from the wall. To go over the cliff would result in far too wide a search area, whereas the 5-foot interpretation results in an exact spot to dig.

Given GH for Great Highway and GGP, maybe you could see the shoulder patch as representing the Cliff House area, Sutro Heights Park. From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl: Chaste, perfect as the silver moon Sutro was a silver baron involved with the Comstock Lode .

catherwood wrote:: My fantasy is that the totem pole was right on the edge of the hill overlooking the ocean, and the giant step would be straight down the cliff onto the sandy beach. I agree that it makes all the sense in the world, and that was what popped into my mind as well. Just speaking in the abstract, and not about this specific location, but I always had a similar interpretation; the cask might be buried at the bottom of a ledge or cliff type structure, that has a pole on the top. I've always entertained the idea that the "giant step" may not be in terms of feet from the pole, but in terms of elevation. We already know Preiss uses the term "step" In Cleveland to refer to a vertical step. Very interesting to me, in verse 8 he he uses "ascend the 92 steps" but uses "100 paces" for horizontal distance. We don't know if the 5 steps in Thucydides' direction are actual stairs or not, but for the sake of this theory, I hope they are. He specifically uses the term "paces" in verse 5. He does use "east steps" in Verse 10. "Giant step" is open to so much interpretation, that once the actual location is found (if it isn't a casualty of time), will have some definitive direction to go from the pole. "Giant step" gives no horizontal direction whatsoever and it would be a 360 degree crap shoot from the "pole", would it not? Am I missing something there? I know there are some people who are of the opinion that Preiss is very bad at putting together puzzles, but there are seemingly no other specific numbers/treasure ground clues like we see in the other clues (9th Row, 7th Step up, end of 10 by 15, etc.. Even "In the center of 4 alike" gives you a specific spot conceptually). Here it's only "giant pole, giant step" so I think that the concept behind it being an elevation clue with the cask at the base of a cliff or ledge (literally a GIANT step down (or potentially up depending on the actual pole being described in the verse)) is pretty sound. The actual treasure ground would have to appear in such a way that one could intuit what direction from the pole one needs to go. Up/down at least gives you a sense of direction that you can line up with the pole.

Unknown: "Giant step" gives no horizontal direction whatsoever and it would be a 360 degree crap shoot from the "pole", would it not? Am I missing something there? I'm not a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought, but if that turns out to be the solution, the "giant step" would presumably be in the direction of the "object of Twain's attention". If a step is about 30", then a "giant step" would be in the 3-5 foot range, which would narrow down the dig spot considerably. Unless it is a pier sunk directly into the ground, a "giant" pole would probably have a significant concrete foundation, so moving the digger a few feet away from the base makes sense.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I'm not a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought, but if that turns out to be the solution, the "giant step" would presumably be in the direction of the "object of Twain's attention". If a step is about 30", then a "giant step" would be in the 3-5 foot range, which would narrow down the dig spot considerably. Unless it is a pier sunk directly into the ground, a "giant" pole would probably have a significant concrete foundation, so moving the digger a few feet away from the base makes sense. I'm not sure if I was suggesting I was a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought or not. I was throwing around some ideas. However, I also know that my knowledge of the specific areas being discussed as it relates to SF are far surpassed by many in this thread. I am very open to a larger-than-life statue of someone of Polish decent as the giant Pole. Per the above, and my respect for those who know what's what to the finest detail in SF, I don't want to start asking dumb questions about the totem pole in question that I will look up later, but this previously posted picture demonstrates the overall concept I was duscussing:

Unknown: I'm not sure if I was suggesting I was a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought or not. Sorry MB, I did not mean to suggest that you did. I was trying to address the problem of "horizontal direction" in the verse, and got ahead of myself. Using TOoTA (whatever that is) as a directional indicator is one way address the problem of which side of the pole (whatever it is) to dig on, and that's really the only point I was trying to make.

Goldengate wrote:: Catherwood -- I think the link below demonstrates what you were referring to... -- the similarity on the rock face is striking. yeah, you must have missed the addendum to my post. I did my own flipflop to make it match. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 785875549/ The hook in the "nose" is what stands out for me. Also, thank you for the other historical photo above. I was never at the location when the totem pole was there, so any references are helpful, if I ever do find myself near that cliff in the future.

erexere wrote:: I've been working verse7 for SF. When I get to the line about a "giant step" I wonder if it has something to do with the Baseball team. Baseball steps might be those square bases that players step on, the five sided home plate or up on the pictures mound? Well it's 90 feet between bases. Perhaps "a Giant step" is a roundabout way of saying you need to walk 90 feet.

Thanks for the input. I dont feel too compelled to figure this puzzle out these days. I think its thematically built around the idea of a doorway. If we findthe correct door, and its likely a giant door, then the spot directly in front would be considered a giant [door] step.

Hm. Been a very long time since I've posted. I really should, but I haven't read the whole topic thread on this image. While gazing at image 1 (in normal orientation), I wonder if I'm the only one who sees a faint outline of the Coit Tower, with its distinctive squared-off "step" at the bottom of of the shaft just to the left of the rose, the side of the shaft going up from that step, the place where the shaft narrows, and very faintly the arched windows and round top above that. If I'm correct, I'd guess that this would be a city identifier, with less chance of being an actual location clue in the city.

I reread all the posts in this topic. Nobody else mentioned the possible image of the Coit Tower hidden where I think I see it. While I'm at it, the winder on the watch is an, ahem, dead ringer for a cable car bell, as distinctively mounted on some SF cable cars. This may also lend confirmation to the interpretation of the outline of the upper part of the pillar under the table being in the shape of a cable car. I don't believe anyone mentioned this one, either. Those who favor derived clues may find something in "table" and "cable car" ---> "cable car round table" ---> "cable car turntable", of which there are (I believe) three, quite popular with tourists.

Kalessin wrote:: While I'm at it, the winder on the watch is an, ahem, dead ringer for a cable car bell Good idea. (The Cable Car museum where you can presumably see this kind of stuff is just west of Portsmouth Square Plaza with the RLS monument.)

A note about the Palace of the Legion of Honor in 1995, http://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-12/ ... t-museum/3

erexere wrote:: A note about the Palace of the Legion of Honor in 1995, http://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-12/ ... t-museum/3 Hey Erexere, Anything come from those Palace of the Legion of Honor pics I took for you?

Thank you for taking those. I couldnt determine anything from them. My instincts for blurring that line between what is sensible and what is beyond recognizable means have waned. SF's puzzle is very tricky. The run of herringish possibilities leaves me guessing. I think its for a local like yourself to make any further determinations. I will say though that the "near ace is high" still seems like a good fit for a golf hole number. An "ace" in golf is a "hole in one". Near a hole that is ace high or like the playing card number 14 could be 13 or 15. The 15th hole is right close to the Palace.

Hi Everyone, Just joined! I've I been checking the threads and Ive been going though old photos, talking to people I know who have lived hear since the 70s onwards and checking city data. I feel I am ready to start to dig, but not so much for the getting arrested part. Could anyone please help with information on contacting Golden Gate Park about how to get permission to dig?

Lafitte wrote:: I too thought this and posted as such many moons ago... Just came across this tower while mulling over V2 ("the place where jewels abound"). As a piece of historical SF trivia, it's quite interesting. Some of the "novagems" (100,000 of them were used in decorating the structure) look familiar. http://www.sanfranciscomemories.com/ppi ... ewels.html

Just learned about this these treasures after watching Expedition Unknown this past week. Really good stuff, so I sat at my computer and went thru image 1 clues. A coulple hours later I have solved the clues and am ready to share them with a San Francisco searcher. I'm in Cincinnati and cannot get out to SF anytime over the next few years. After reading all the many clues and websites I've seen many people follow ideas that just don't work. If you are in San Francisco area, I've got some news for you. MrBackstop

MrBackstop wrote:: Just learned about this these treasures after watching Expedition Unknown this past week. Really good stuff, so I sat at my computer and went thru image 1 clues. A coulple hours later I have solved the clues and am ready to share them with a San Francisco searcher. I'm in Cincinnati and cannot get out to SF anytime over the next few years. After reading all the many clues and websites I've seen many people follow ideas that just don't work. If you are in San Francisco area, I've got some news for you. MrBackstop I'm not trying to release any spoilers, but can you tell us what the "G" and "h" represent according to your theory?

I'm not trying to release any spoilers, but can you tell us what the "G" and "h" represent according to your theory?[/quote] The capital G and lower case h "in reverse" simply mean that the treasure is in an area on the Backside of the Ghirardelli Sign. It is not on the coastline area as some have suspected.

MrBackstop wrote:: The capital G and lower case h "in reverse" simply mean that the treasure is in an area on the Backside of the Ghirardelli Sign. It is not on the coastline area as some have suspected. I have always agreed with that assessment. However, I believe Maltedfalcon (could have been someone else, and I apologize if I have this wrong, please speak up) maintains that he G and h match a contemporary tourist flyer or something of that nature - Great Highway. Is there anyone with more information on that interpretation that might want to weigh in on this? I may be misrepresenting these clues, and that's the last thing I want to do. There is an outline in the water of Image 1 that does apparently match a contemporary tourist map? Could someone with more solid information please fill in some of these details? I would try, and I agree with the theory at large, but I am not in any position to speak on behalf of the theory as it isn't my baby. I know it is in the thread, but in the spirit of the anticipated wave of new interest, is anyone interested in clarifying some of this with a couple of bullet points? Edit: Quick clarification: I have "always agreed" with the assessment that the G and h are the Ghirardelli sign. I am open minded to thought out theories in general and I know there are other interpretations of the G h, but I lean toward Ghirardelli. Once our intreped SF boots on the ground find it, that interpretation will be proved right or wrong.

My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street.

MrBackstop wrote:: My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese That's very unlikely. The book contains a verse called the litany which associates nationalities with gems. Russia is Topaz (image 12) and China is Pearl (image 1).

I'm not in SF specifically, but more like an hour's drive away. I've been to Ghirardelli Square as a tourist, and I can't think of any diggable surface around there. Of course, the reverse of the sign is probably visible from many vantage points around the neighborhood, and this is only one of many clues in the image. If you want a local to go on a scouting mission for you, that's fine. People here will want to know whether you can address all of the previous interpretations of the clues, whether you've considered the way the city and its landmarks looked decades ago when the hunt was first published. Our community has openly discussed many theories over the years, and we're used to being able to exchange ideas (and criticisms) in a joint effort to solve the puzzle. The more you are willing to share, the more you'll find people willng to help. (But I'm probably too much of a skeptic to believe the treasure is still intact.)

MrBackstop wrote:: My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street. Apparently Preiss didn't have a Sharipe big enough to cover that up like he did the Fleur de Lis in Image 9.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: Apparently Preiss didn't have a Sharipe big enough to cover that up like he did the Fleur de Lis in Image 9. Merlot, are you in SF?

MrBackstop wrote:: Merlot, are you in SF? Negative.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: . I like you MB.

catherwood wrote:: I'm not in SF specifically, but more like an hour's drive away. I've been to Ghirardelli Square as a tourist, and I can't think of any diggable surface around there. Of course, the reverse of the sign is probably visible from many vantage points around the neighborhood, and this is only one of many clues in the image. If you want a local to go on a scouting mission for you, that's fine. People here will want to know whether you can address all of the previous interpretations of the clues, whether you've considered the way the city and its landmarks looked decades ago when the hunt was first published. Our community has openly discussed many theories over the years, and we're used to being able to exchange ideas (and criticisms) in a joint effort to solve the puzzle. The more you are willing to share, the more you'll find people willng to help. (But I'm probably too much of a skeptic to believe the treasure is still intact.) To tell you the truth I wish I could go back to SF and look for this myself but I can't so I'm happy to help. The area of this Image 1 is not a huge SF Landmark. At the Stone door (San Francisco Bay) The air smells sweet (Ghirardelli) Not far away High Posts are three (Sutro Tower) Education and Justice For all to see (Alcatraz) Sounds from the sky Near ace is high (George Sterling Memorial Tennis Courts) Running north, but first across (Columbus Ave) In jewel's direction Is an object Of Twain's attention (West toward the Mississippi) Giant pole Giant step To the place The casque is kept (Playfully using the SF Giants name)

MrBackstop wrote:: ... and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street. lulz

Oh, I forgot one, I believe that Sounds from the sky (refers to Telegraph Hill)

Now here are my thoughts on the Artwork itself: The 11 spheres in the sky could represent the 11 freeways in San Francisco. Forgive me for not reading this massive thread started years ago if this has already been mentioned. Obviously the prison window on the rock is Alcatraz. Backwards "G and h" are in reference to the back of the Ghirardelli sign. Serpent represents Lombard Street The Lady's fingers point to the 4th square on each sleeve representing the 44 hills of San Francisco. I believe the squares on the Serpent represent all the blocks and blocks of streets in San Francisco. NOW, LETS GET TO WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE ARTWORK: The rose is a symbol of the park that this "secret" is in. The clock sitting on top of the pedestal is not a pedestal at all, it is a GNOMON. And if you are not aware, a GNOMON is the raised piece of a Sundial that casts a shadow onto the sundial. So technically a sundial like this is a "clock" on a pedestal. The Roman Numerals on the Lady's garment are representing the numbers on a Sundial. The place I'm going to find a sundial like this one is in a small little park near Russian Hill, Southwest of Columbus Ave, a block away from Lombard street, located Southeast of the Ghirardelli Sign, and loaded with beautiful rose bushes. The Park is referred to as "The Secret Garden at Fay Park" So if I were in San Francisco, I'd go there and take a Giant Step to the west from the Giant Pole of the sundial and perhaps you'll find the "secret" in the base of that bush. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0

Nice one MrBackstop, some nice ideas there. I don't remember the sundial theory being discussed much, though it has been mentioned before. Looking at it again, it's quite compelling. As for Fay Park...that's got to be worth a visit... (Incidentally, the SF Giants are shown on P89.)

I believe another possibility "Of Twain's attention" could be Hawaii. He traveled there for awhile after SF. If that is the correct solve to this line, then you would need to take a Giant step toward the Southwest which would mean the spot of the "secret" would be where the rose bushes are just upon the opening of the gate to Fay Park. Keep in mind, I just found out about this treasure hunt a few days ago so the more I look at this the more ideas keep "narrowing" in my mind.

Okay so long story short my dad was watching Expedition Unknown and had tipped me off about the existence of this book and this treasure hunt, so here I am! Anyway from a couple of days of pouring over the clues (I decided I'd focus mostly on the supposed San Francisco clue, since that would be the easiest one for me to get to if I decided to pursue this treasure hunt. In jewel's direction Is an object Of Twain's attention (West toward the Mississippi) Okay from following the clues on Google Maps, I noticed that there's actually a Maritime Museum directly across from Ghiradeli Square (because if you go back to the original image, the reversed G and h are right next to where the pearl is in the picture (and from researching other posts here I only saw one other reference to the location I was thinking of, though I think it was a slightly different area: http://www.mediafire.com/view/09694d2s2 ... TSclue.png Giant pole Giant step To the place The casque is kept (Playfully using the SF Giants name) Although I couldn't figure out a way to work this into my google maps research, my theory was that the pearl in the original painting was right about where it'd be if the 'Gh' is the front steps of Ghiradeli Square, looking out (I mean if you were in the building the Gh would technically be reversed.... I only wish I lived in the area and could test this theory!

Let me add this to my current solve. The sundial at Fay Park looks just like the one in the artwork and the rose sitting on the sundial would represent the rose bushes just above it a Giant step away. In my mind this is where the "secret" has to be. Somebody let me know when you find it. MrBackstop

Looks like Fay Park was a private residence until it was donated to the city in 1998. Also there were renovations in 2005. http://sfrecpark.org/destination/fay-park/ https://tclf.org/landscapes/fay-park

Fenix, great thinking on the sundial idea. Using a table to tell time. Hmm. Could it be transit related? A trolley, bus, or ferry boat? Or is it about a place where one would stand in the middle of a circular area where a large light source is near?

Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door. https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0

Howardjthomas wrote:: Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door. https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0 Yes, by me and others, and posted about in these forums. Yes, it's a slog to go back to read pages and pages of old theories, but I did post a photograph of an area of exposed rock along the highway near the Cliff house. The texture matches. (Here's the link for the comparison, to save everyone the trouble of backtracking.) https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 785875549/

adastra wrote:: Looks like Fay Park was a private residence until it was donated to the city in 1998. Also there were renovations in 2005. http://sfrecpark.org/destination/fay-park/ https://tclf.org/landscapes/fay-park Adastra, thank for the info. I know where this rookie made his mistake. I first looked to see if the park met the time requirement and noticed that the designer Thomas Church had been designing gardens up until 1978. Then I just took off and ran with it, back to the drawing board. MrBackstop

Howardjthomas wrote:: Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door. https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0 I don't recall seeing a post about that. Does it appear to you to be someone looking to the right side of Image 1? I'm struggling to make out a clear face otherwise. If so, there is a similar looking figure on the statue dedicated to Verdi in GGP, located here: https://goo.gl/maps/e6eeXF6qBJM2 . A closeup photo of the figure can be found here: http://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/wp ... C_3800.jpg . Interestingly, the statue depicts Love, Tragedy, Joy and Sorrow, which were not unfamiliar topics for Mark Twain to write about.

JoshCornell wrote:: completed this motherfucker f**k yes...now have exact location and anxiety eases away....ahhhhh *does a little dance* For reals!?! you have it?? Can we see what it looks like? Where was it?

xarimus wrote:: For reals!?! you have it?? Can we see what it looks like? Where was it? He has completed no digs. He's posted on various threads saying he has completed the puzzles, though.

Gem wrote:: He has completed no digs. He's posted on various threads saying he has completed the puzzles, though. Ah sorry, I'm new here. Got my hopes up! Though SF is the one closest to me, not sure I'll get the chance to go hunt about myself.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I'm going through a statue phase at the moment. Considering I1 V6, it seems a heck of a coincidence that we have a plaque for RLS, a plaque for Edwin, and a great big chinese statue all right next to each other. The uneven paving of St Mary's Square reminds me of the dragon scales. And just check out that collar. It's adorned with Chinese hieroglyphics like the image. And his hands are like the mountains. I appreciate that the image has a strong resonance with GGP, but maybe this is an area pointer like the Water Tower. Of all the romance retold Men of tales and tunes Cruel and bold Seen here By eyes of old RLS plaque. Stand and listen to the birds Hear the cool, clear song of water Harken to the words: Freedom at the birth of a century Or May 1913 Edwin and Edwina named after him Foundation of Equity at Edwin Booth's place in NY. Or on the eighth a scene Where law defended Between two arms extended Below the bar that binds (Due south of Alcatraz, just as the pearl in the pic is below the bars?) Beside the long palm's shadow Near the statue Embedded in the sand Waits the Fair remuneration White house close at hand. Still a lot of unknowns here, but maybe worth a visit. It's two blocks from Clay St., named after Henry Clay who had a hand in the Emancipation Proclamation. Statue is Sun Yat Sen. (Note reference to suns in the Chinese section of the intro. I know people hate this intro but it does give us FOY so it can't be all bad.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen Sculptor is Benny Bufano. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Bufano Giving this post a quick bump after some chats with WhiteRabbit, in the hopes that it might prompt one of our San Francisco-based hunters with an open mind to look into a possible I1/V6 pairing. Having never personally been to SF it's hard to judge from Google Maps, but it looks as if all of these landmarks noted are visible within a 1/2-mile walk through Chinatown. My only contribution (so far) is that whole "Freedom at the birth of a century / Or May 1913" bit...could it be a reference to the Boxer Rebellion at the end of the Qing dynasty,1899-1901, and then the formation of the Republic of China between 1912-13? Interesting to note than Sun Yet-sen, pictured in the statue that WhiteRabbit dug up from St. Mary's Park, is also known as the "father of the nation". I also learned that he traveled back and forth between China and San Francisco somewhat regularly. It was a little challenging for me to search for images online since I don't know the area, but maybe a sharper set of eyes can find some sort of plaque or historical marker around here which reads "May 1913."

Quick follow-up to the previous post on St.Mary's square...apparently there's also a "White House" right across the street from the statue that WhiteRabbit found. It looks to be a public parking garage now, but it's apparently also some kind of historic SF landmark which might further suggest an I1/V6 pairing. Link: http://thewhitehousegaragesf.com Also: just learned that Title 8 of the US code deals with the role of aliens and nationality in the United States, and Chapter 8 of this code specifically deals with Chinese immigrants. No joke...this is officially titled as "The Cooly Trade". Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_8_o ... tates_Code Could the Chinese Exclusion Act, enacted in 1882 and repealed in 1943, possible be the inspiration for the couplet "Or on the eighth a scene / Where law defended"? Again, unsure if there's any historical markers or similar nearby, but it seems to fit well with both I1 and the immigration theme. Also interesting: The adjacent park from St. Mary's, the Union Square shopping area, was built up over a sand dune... (Link: http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/arti ... 731306.php )

Goldengate wrote:: I've looked around and haven't seen any previous reference as to what may be TWO NEW POSSIBLE CLUES I've just noticed in Image One. (Please forgive me, but I have searched here and on the Wiki, but these have not been addressed as I will below) #1 Flip Image One on her head, and read the Roman numerals on the left hand side. One of those images will be VI... what's interesting about this is that's where the SIXTH and Fulton pedestrian entrance is located in relation to what many (including me) consider to be a representation of Stow Lake. In 1981, the park closed the 6th Ave entrance to vehicles... so the pedestrian entrance was BRAND... SPANKING... NEW... as was the Chinese Pavilion. Anytime something is new in GGP, they make a big deal of it... I can imagine Preiss using new permanent fixtures at the park as markers. I'm not saying this is a home run clue, but as a guy who lived in San Francisco for many years, this seems like a very cool, not coincidental fit. Priess obviously meant this challenge to be accomplished while getting outside and walking. There are many entrances to GGP, but this one, is a formal pedestrian entrance, with a small entry plaza with small curved walls which you walk between to gain access to the park, just down from Stow Lake. Also, there's an old plaque on the left hand wall... just saying'... if this is actually a real clue, it may represent Preiss' intended starting point -- and the subsequent clues may unfold from this entry to the ultimate casque location. #2 There has been much discussion as to the blocks on the cuffs of the woman's robe. But forget which block she's pointing at. One sleeve has 18 blocks. The other sleeve has 20 blocks. If you draw two lines across the park at 18th and 20th Avenues, you will include the "top" of Stow Lake as it is illustrated in the picture... also included is the area on both sides of Crossover Drive... and Prayerbook Cross also fits neatly in there. I've got a squirmy three year old kid and a job in in LA, so odds are I won't be be running up there to dig... but I hope this helps someone who has boots on the ground! Thanks for the tip! thinking of talking the family into a road trip to try and find the casque, but I'll add these to my notes I've started!

OHHH YES! I see it The front cross is much darker from what I can see.

When I look at those "crosses" in the book, their horizontal beams appear to be formed by a faint line that extends all the way across the image, making me think it's a printing artifact instead of a deliberate inclusion by Palencar.

've been working on the boston one for some time now. I noticed that in both the cleveland and chicago finds had a clear cut image of the burial spot in the painting. I know nothing at all about san fran or what yiu guys have done for resesrch, haven't read up or analyzed yours but i did just look at the photo and, to me, in the fashion of the other finds and how the burial locations were represented in the paintings, this is the location of the burial site here: https://imgur.com/a/xILtW And thank you for entertaining my quick glance thoughts

I wish I could understand how this puzzle works. Boston seems easy compared to SF. I get the feeling the picture represents a prison in the background. The obvious choice for the symbolism would suggest a view of Alcatraz might be in the background from where we are to dig. Or the painting suggests that's where Prince Yi has contained the last fire breathing dragon, which may represent looking out towards the cliffs of Diablo Point Light. Or some more practical fire/prison/barred window kind of reference is being made. I wonder if some clues might be found around the China beach area.

Read all the posts in this thread several times (in fact, I'm going to make a DrunkNotes summary of it next time I get a free afternoon), and I'm a little shocked to not see this mentioned. I'm sure it HAS to have been mentioned, though: We've been flipping the dress about the vertical axis because of the G h. But why not flip the whole thing about the horizontal axis too, because of the upside down roman numerals? It could even be argued that every numeral on the dress border is upside down, because the I II III above her hands read the same way upside down. Not sure if this will lead anywhere, but I kind of feel its such an obvious clue and in-line with the G h flip that it must yield something. It would put the flare on the opposite corner which would make all the lay-a-map-of-GGP-over-the-dress theories kind of... different?

erexere wrote:: I wish I could understand how this puzzle works. . This puzzle makes me feel like a Giant pole

For some reason, there's another thread about this. It's too bad, because a huge breakthrough has been found there and I think this thread missed this. Let me summarize it here. Most of these are stuff they discovered that I just put labeled images to: Goonie68 and treetops, I believe, found the GGP senior center: There, they noticed a very familiar dragon statue on the senior center, and a decent "lamppost under the table" match: Note the teeth, here: Oh, hey, here's the front entrance: No bars, you say? The location was once a police station. Gosh, I guess all we need is a: Check out the top of that pole and the shape of the grounds: I believe goonies or treetops is currently researching the history of the pole. If it was there in 1980, take one step from the base towards fulton street, and dig..

Thanks for looking at the thread. I have more info as my research has begun to unravel this mystery starting point stay tuned!!!!!

Also the book has way more clues in it then you think, you have to dig deep and what I have found is mind blowing stuff!!! I am trying to put it all together....

Wow! Right there in the open by the street? Yes, the flagpole has been there: http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979

JoshCornell1 wrote:: is that the pole where that bliven guy dug? No. He dug in a different park.

Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me.

Goonie68 wrote:: Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me. drunknerds suggested right there in front of the senior center.

I cannot overstate how CRUCIAL the dragon find is: This is our fence and fixture. This is our Grecian garden wall. This is out exact match of a minor landmark at the dig location. This is real.

Goldengate wrote:: 37th Ave is interesting and there are pieces that seem to fit into the puzzle. But if I may be the devil's advocate... would Preiss have dug out in the open, directly in front of the of the Police Academy's front door -- on an extremely busy street like Fulton? Back in 82, as today, there was absolutely no cover in that area. Anything's possible, of course... but that would be BOLD. As I recall, it became the senior center in 1980 or 1981. That doesn't solve the issue of digging out in the open, but at least it was not a police station at that time. I said in a post in the other thread that I really like this location with stone wall door, the dragon, the lamp post, and the pearl appearing on top of an elusive giant pole. I don't love Fulton Street=Steamboat=Twain, but that's always been one of the more difficult lines to find a clear match. Assuming "giant step" is an instruction to take a giant step away from the pole, I think it is worth exploring a few feet surrounding the pole. At least it appears this area has been unchanged since the early 80's, so we should have a good idea of whether it's the right spot or not. Dig it up!

Goonie68 wrote:: Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me. Oh, cool, glad we have two interpretations to compare. Looking forward to yours

Goldengate wrote:: 37th Ave is interesting and there are pieces that seem to fit into the puzzle. But if I may be the devil's advocate... would Preiss have dug out in the open, directly in front of the of the Police Academy's front door -- on an extremely busy street like Fulton? Back in 82, as today, there was absolutely no cover in that area. Anything's possible, of course... but that would be BOLD. This is a great counterpoint. I'm hoping goonie68 posts a solve that is still right by that dragon statue, but much more secluded

Who's got a dumb question? Where exactly is that dragon at the senior center? I can't find it on streetview

drunknerds wrote:: Who's got a dumb question? Where exactly is that dragon at the senior center? I can't find it on streetview Go to google maps, find the Senior Center, click on photos. It's in the arch above the door.

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@37.772026,-122.497051,182.71h,5.22p,0.55z Above the front doors

I will post the picture I took later today ....you know work and all get's in the way!!!

I see your excitement about the dragon but It doesn't seem like a pure match.

I found this while searching. Some interesting photos and descriptions of GGP through the years. http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S ... 932506.php Also, wouldn't the verse air smells sweet refer to the Garden of Fragrance? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Garde ... 22.4685314

gManTexas wrote:: Also, wouldn't the verse air smells sweet refer to the Garden of Fragrance? Why, no, it's the <frantically searches the area around GGP senior center> it's the Golden Gate Park dog training area, of course

drunknerds wrote:: Why, no, it's the <frantically searches the area around GGP senior center> it's the Golden Gate Park dog training area, of course Haha, you might be onto something. Check your shoe!

In this image G-Man found, it looks like this flagpole spot wouldn't be seen from the street no the sidewalk. There's a hedge and then above it bushes. If it was like this in 1980 or whenever, I'd have no problem believing price slipped in after hours and buried a casque

Also, immediately behind the senior center, in a much more secluded area, is this thing that I don't know what it is:

drunknerds wrote:: Also, immediately behind the senior center, in a much more secluded area, is this thing that I don't know what it is: From Bing maps, it looks like a street lamp: Goonies or someone else on the ground can probably give us better confirmation, though.

Thanks meatypuffs. I emailed the art/museum director of the Senior Center and nicely asked for any and all info about the door dragons.

There's some evidence that there was a giant pole at Stow Lake in the past. The question is whether it was there when BP visited. https://www.hippostcard.com/search?keyw ... arent_id=0 This is the location where the pole used to be, directly across from the Chinese Pavillion. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7685032 ... 312!8i6656 If it was there (big if) there are some giant steps in line with it from the area of the Gardens: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7685033 ... 312!8i6656 I speculate if any of this is plausible. However, in thinking about things and digging for info, Mark Twain and Harriet Beecher Stowe were neighbors and good friends. In the direction of Twain's attention would be Stow Lake.

Hey hunters, is it safe to tap a five foot probe one step towards the street from that senior center pole? I can't imagine they'd run a pipe/wire from that weird utility box under the flagpole base, so as probing one step away from the pole would hit it. But, at the same time, I have no experience with this. I have a couple of friends who seem willing to try that out (although we'll see if they're just riding my hype-man train), but I don't want to like leave a senior center without sewage or something, lol

Goonie68 wrote:: I will post the picture I took later today ....you know work and all get's in the way!!! You took a picture of the dragon sculpture again? You are a God among men, even if the pic was of something else. This Travel channel special has yielded some results, after all: Reading old threads it seems like it took weeks/months to get pictures of a place of interest.

erexere wrote:: I see your excitement about the dragon but It doesn't seem like a pure match. I'm eager to hear back from the art director of the building. If they say the dragons weren't there in 1981, I will gain remarkable insight into the minds of all the people who have sworn they had an exact match, but didn't. So I'm going to learn something, either way. But man, this is as close a match as I've seen for one of these chimera-like images, in terms of replicated details.

Goldengate wrote:: I understand why this is a cool and very juicy idea to pursue... but I'm familiar with the post card images you're referring to and they're not where you think they are. The post card images were taken from the Roman Bridge looking West toward one of the smaller islands. While the "mainland is to the left, the paths of Strawberry Hill island are seen to the right, and Huntington Falls and the future site of the Pavilion would likewise be on the right side and ahead -- across from that smaller island. I'm not the best at posting links, and photos here (I'll try to fix that) but take a look for yourself on any map. Also, the pole is no longer there. Dang that was super insightful. Thanks!

If the final solution is something like a flag pole, how do you come up with "a giant step" from the pole to spot where the casque is buried? Looking at Chicago and Cleveland, the spot was specifically marked as where it would be, no guess work.

commish wrote:: If the final solution is something like a flag pole, how do you come up with "a giant step" from the pole to spot where the casque is buried? Looking at Chicago and Cleveland, the spot was specifically marked as where it would be, no guess work. Edit: Oh, I read too deep into your post. The answer is "the final lines of the verse that is one of the leading contenders for this image is "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept." -- Original Post: Great question. First of all, my theory relies on "in Jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's affection" right before "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept" meaning "stand at the pole and take a big step towards Fulton street." Poles often have wider bases underground, so you usually should take a step away from them if you want to dig down 3 feet. Second, I wish so hard "no guess work" was true for the solves, but the opposite actually happened : Cleveland took all day because the clues seemed to lead to the wrong side of the wall from where the casque was buried and Chicago took over a year, iirc, with the author himself stating to the hunters that he doesn't see why they haven't found it after digging a trench long enough to win WWI

drunknerds wrote:: I'm eager to hear back from the art director of the building. If they say the dragons weren't there in 1981, I will gain remarkable insight into the minds of all the people who have sworn they had an exact match, but didn't. So I'm going to learn something, either way. I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD. Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing Would be very interested to learn if your senior center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s

Goldengate wrote:: I understand why this is a cool and very juicy idea to pursue... but I'm familiar with the post card images you're referring to and they're not where you think they are. The post card images were taken from the Roman Bridge looking West toward one of the smaller islands. While the "mainland" is to the left, the paths of Strawberry Hill Island are seen to the right, and Huntington Falls and the future site of the Pavilion would likewise be on the right side and ahead -- across from that smaller island. I'm not the best at posting links, and photos here (I'll try to fix that) but take a look for yourself on any map. Also, the pole is no longer there. That's why I said it was speculative. Although I would be interested in knowing when the pole went away, wherever it was located. I still like the Twain - Stowe connection.

treetops wrote:: Just to be clear, my "contact" is "the email I found on the senior center's website." Altho4ugh, I'm really good at two things. One of which is eliciting info from people through niceness. Unfortunately, the other thing I'm good at is "hyping this thing into epic proportions beyond realistic expectations." Also, It's so hard to tell if a match is exact or not, because a lot of these images seem to have taken a statue and transformed many elements. So I'm stuck with "This phoenix is obviously not this dragon/serpent thing, but they have like 3-5 unmistakable similarities"

treetops wrote:: I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD. Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing Would be very interested to learn if your senior center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s Here's a great image of it: http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979 . Click "View Image" for a very big version of it. Doesn't look like it has moved since when it was a police station.

treetops wrote:: I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD. Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing Would be very interested to learn if your senior center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s Here's a great image of it: http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979 . Click "View Image" for a very big version of it. Doesn't look like it has moved since when it was a police station.

Goldengate wrote:: I really hate to be the guy who shoots down cool connections (and they are cool), but: 1) The lake was not named after Harriet Beecher Stowe 2) The lake is "Stow" Lake -- no "e" Again, a great and inventive idea -- but speaking for myself, It feels like a pretty big reach. Twain is / was America's humorist and chronicler in chief. He was interested in everybody and everything. You can throw a dart and find something that had Twain's attention at one point or another, which is why I think the clue is something that's a little more accessible on the surface than something like a Stowe connection. Dude, I think you are being too literal. There are way more obscure references and clues in these puzzles. Stowe and Stow are almost a 1 to 1 match in my book, but I didn't claim the lake was named after her. Twain and Stowe lived in houses next to each other and were friends. They admired each others work. I could also see the Pioneer Cabin (same area in the park) working as a reference, since Stowe wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin and Twain responded with Huck Finn. Could the Twain reference point to something else? Yes. I even made mention previously about Twain being into Hasheesh candy from Richards and Co. on the northwest corner of Clay and Sansome streets as a possible directional clue. https://www.thecannabist.co/2015/09/18/ ... nia/41175/ I'm throwing stuff out there that I haven't really come across, to get my brain thinking, but more important, for maybe someone else to make a leap of intuition.

Goldengate wrote:: Gman I'm all for making leaps! And these are GREAT and INSPIRATIONAL -- truly. I just don't feel they would be reasonably sourced in 1982. Preiss in his own words thought these puzzles would be solved in a MONTH so I'm not being overly literal, just realistic. Google is a magical tool, but it didn't exist in 82. Sourcing Twain and Stowe's relationship, which would have taken far more than encyclopedia-deep research and matching it to Stow Lake, would have been a landslide of work. Not saying it's not possible, but I went to college just prior to the internet and making a Twain / Stowe connection out of the mounds of Twain research in actual books, while hilighting dozens of other thin connections like his observations on weed, is just unlikely. I'm looking for likely solutions that are complex, but not several times removed from what most would commonly relate to Twain. All that said, I've always thought the Pioneer Cabin was a possible hit. Not because of Stowe, but Calaveras County. -- BTW, I've looked at probably every frog statue in Golden Gate park as well for the same reason, LOL! I hear what you are saying, I'm all about these puzzles being relatively straightforward. However, I disagree on Stowe. She was WAY more famous than the Abroad in America authors referenced in Verse 2. Here's a quick article and I think almost everyone had read Uncle Tom's Cabin. Requisite reading for high school. https://connecticuthistory.org/the-most ... the-world/ https://connecticuthistory.org/where-mr ... am-houses/ Anyway, there is probably some very simple solution that is just escaping everyone, probably due to time or missing features on the ground.

I agree, but on the other hand BP was a literary guy. I think he expected people to be very well read and make some of these connections. Also, using the tools from that period, we had encyclopedias, the library, etc. I did say this when I joined the forum: If it was me in 1980 and I was traveling to a distant city, I would go to the tourism office, the library, talk to the locals. Find out what was important. It might help to talk to some old timers in the location, see what they remember. These puzzle probably have to be solved on the ground at the location. I think we can only get so far with the Internet, then some people need to talk to people, walk the paths and put a shovel in the ground.

drunknerds wrote:: Edit: Oh, I read too deep into your post. The answer is "the final lines of the verse that is one of the leading contenders for this image is "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept." -- Original Post: Great question. First of all, my theory relies on "in Jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's affection" right before "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept" meaning "stand at the pole and take a big step towards Fulton street." Poles often have wider bases underground, so you usually should take a step away from them if you want to dig down 3 feet. Second, I wish so hard "no guess work" was true for the solves, but the opposite actually happened : Cleveland took all day because the clues seemed to lead to the wrong side of the wall from where the casque was buried and Chicago took over a year, iirc, with the author himself stating to the hunters that he doesn't see why they haven't found it after digging a trench long enough to win WWI I wouldn't say they are easy to find. After 35 years, there have been two found. At this rate it will take 210 years to find the remaining treasures, but once the Chicago team and Cleveland team put the clues in the correct order and using hind site we can see Preiss did have them fairly well marked. It just seems to me that Preiss wouldn't leave it up to you taking a giant step out compared to mine, compared to someone else's step. Those could easy vary enough in distance to leading a person to miss the spot. I have to believe Preiss wanted these found, if nothing more, so He could do it again. It seems to me that there would need to be some indicator at the site as what the distance would actually be to start digging.

Unknown: It really can be that simple. Milwaukee is that simple. So is Roanoke. And St. Augustine. Collectively, we are 0-653* for holes dug in those three cities. So while it can be that simple, it probably isn't. *more or less

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/ Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/ Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.

Better close up.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40112003722/in/dateposted-public/

Goonie68 wrote:: https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/ Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix. Is there any way to tell how old they are? Also, is that a lion in the stone plaque above the arch?

Goonie68 wrote:: https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/ Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix. Is there any way to tell how old they are? Also, is that a lion in the stone plaque above the arch?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364786499/in/dateposted-public/ Looks like

Found this from 1941 or thereabouts. Looks like the design was there or similar at least. https://calisphere.org/item/4fee6001c15 ... 403a6ba33/

Yes from what I can tell it was, I believe I read someone is calling the parks and recs and inquiring about the iron work above

Goonie68 wrote:: https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364786499/in/dateposted-public/ Looks like Like a lion, but also a green man.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364915449/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40112224502/in/dateposted-public/ Bars on the windows.

gManTexas wrote:: Found this from 1941 or thereabouts. Looks like the design was there or similar at least. https://calisphere.org/item/4fee6001c15 ... 403a6ba33/ Whoa, and although the windows don't have bars here, the door sure looks like it does. Plus they are thin and really close, an unusual design from the normal bars that appear on like 70% of SF windows If we can find out if the door had bars in 1980, we'd have 2-3 amazing matches right there in the same place.

commish wrote:: I wouldn't say they are easy to find. After 35 years, there have been two found. At this rate it will take 210 years to find the remaining treasures, but once the Chicago team and Cleveland team put the clues in the correct order and using hind site we can see Preiss did have them fairly well marked. It just seems to me that Preiss wouldn't leave it up to you taking a giant step out compared to mine, compared to someone else's step. Those could easy vary enough in distance to leading a person to miss the spot. I have to believe Preiss wanted these found, if nothing more, so He could do it again. It seems to me that there would need to be some indicator at the site as what the distance would actually be to start digging. But that's what he did: The Chicago casque was a few giant steps from the fencepost. If there was ever a tree marker, he would have had to bury it a step away to avoid roots. If you want to bury something at a monument/flagpole , you'd also want to be a few feet away to avoid hitting the base or destabilizing the structure

Goonie68 wrote:: https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/ Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix. Fantastic work!

Two things that just occurred to me: 1) Is this phoenix ironwork unique to the old police academy, or were similar pieces found over the entrances to other San Francisco police buildings? 2) At the point when Preiss would have been in the park, would there have been any indication that this used to be the police academy? I'm thinking plaques, historical markers, etc. If there were mentions of the old police academy, could this be a candidate for "Education and Justice" in one place?

Wow, education and justice: a policy academy Great work treetops and goldengate!

If the police station was open 24 hours, Preiss couldn't have just stood there digging, unnoticed.

Goldengate wrote:: If anything, it's a way marker, but nothing about it (to me) makes sense as the location of the casque. after education and justice in the verse is "sounds from the sky near ace is high," so if we start walking from the senior center west along Fulton towards hwy 1... Then we run north(not sure about the across: the windmill we pass?) we hit Sutro fields park

Whoops I confused Great Highway with highway 1. Too bad, I really wanted to explore a new park

I think I see what Goonie was talking about. If you go to where "ace is high" is "running north but first across" it's right down the road form the senior center. Then there's a large cross there. Where a giant pole could have ever been though, I don't know. But if Goonie found some of those dress symbols on the cross, it's a good sign. Not sure if just finding a triangle is sufficient for me. There is a log cabin about 4:00 SE from there, and Twain lived in a log cabin in San Francisco.

Her dress and sleeves make a pretty convincing cross, but then the bottom right of the horizontal part has a weird wiggle in it. Wonder what that's about? Here's the cross in 1950: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... 7uY8-L.jpg

drunknerds wrote:: I think I see what Goonie was talking about. If you go to where "ace is high" is "running north but first across" it's right down the road form the senior center. Then there's a large cross there. Where a giant pole could have ever been though, I don't know. But if Goonie found some of those dress symbols on the cross, it's a good sign. Not sure if just finding a triangle is sufficient for me. There is a log cabin about 4:00 SE from there, and Twain lived in a log cabin in San Francisco. Not that it means anything, but I saw a sketch from when they erected the cross, they used a giant pole as rigging: https://jktlibrary.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... francisco/ There also used to be a death ray in the park! http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2009/07/13/th ... gate-park/

drunknerds wrote:: Her dress and sleeves make a pretty convincing cross, but then the bottom right of the horizontal part has a weird wiggle in it. Wonder what that's about? Here's the cross in 1950: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... 7uY8-L.jpg I agree that the dress and sleeves make a very nice cross very similar to the style of cross in the park. I'm going to throw something else out there, I also notice that the right hand in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve of the dress. On Prayer Book Cross there are four blocks with text in them on the face of the cross. Is there any chance that the height of the four blocks on the cross is our giant step? Measure the height of the blocks then take the same distance out from the base of the cross towards Twain's attention and see where that lands. That's my best guess.

PB Cross is Celtic though. That's Boston, isn't it? I wonder if he'd bury an Asian-themed puzzle casque by a Celtic monument Also, there's no way he'd call that a pole. Is there any precedent in the solved ones for him to be that outrageous with a description?

Don't get me wrong: I think these are good suggestions, just discouraged by lack of pole.

drunknerds wrote:: PB Cross is Celtic though. That's Boston, isn't it? I wonder if he'd bury an Asian-themed puzzle casque by a Celtic monument Also, there's no way he'd call that a pole. Is there any precedent in the solved ones for him to be that outrageous with a description? Chicago is the Celtic puzzle. Boston is the Italian puzzle. I don't know that it really matters...

PB is Celtic, at least that's what I thought. The image of the cross in the dress appears to me to be in the Celtic style also. Coincident? Maybe. I look at a cross and see it as a pole with a cross arm. 57' tall would make a big pole to me. Personally, I'm coming to this game late and for whatever reason, I focused in on this puzzle. With that said, I do not know this park at all. I've never been there, only been to SF once about 15 years ago. So as I'm going over the image, I focused in on the hand asking what is it pointing to. With the index finger is off the "map" (assuming the map is golden gate park and the arms are HWY 1) so that can't be the spot. But the ring finger and the pinkie are still in the body of the map and I wonder if they are pointing to something, so I get out Google Maps and that when I see that is where I see PB Cross is in the park. Then thinking there needs to be a confirmation of the site in the image, I see the out line of the cross in the dress. A few days later I notice that PB Cross has the four blocks on it where as the index finger in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve. Another coincidence for me. I'm not saying that know anything, but if I were remotely close, I'd drop a hole or two to find out. I just know it won't happen for me any time soon. What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been.

There's an overlap of the police station existing after the current park police station opened up in the Haight. So it's logical that the station with the phoenix statue could have been made an academy-only spot by the time Preiss got there. I realized that, with the modest shrubbery in front of the pole, Preiss could have easily hidden the casque with a lookout to warn him... When Preiss was hiding the casques, he was dating his future wife, and she lived in San Francisco I'm asking my SF friends if any of them would probe around the area, I'm back to super-sure it's here: The Phoenix and door (and maybe post) are just too obscure for a walking tour, especially if they wouldn't be seen from the sidewalk at the time

commish wrote:: PB is Celtic, at least that's what I thought. The image of the cross in the dress appears to me to be in the Celtic style also. Coincident? Maybe. I look at a cross and see it as a pole with a cross arm. 57' tall would make a big pole to me. Personally, I'm coming to this game late and for whatever reason, I focused in on this puzzle. With that said, I do not know this park at all. I've never been there, only been to SF once about 15 years ago. So as I'm going over the image, I focused in on the hand asking what is it pointing to. With the index finger is off the "map" (assuming the map is golden gate park and the arms are HWY 1) so that can't be the spot. But the ring finger and the pinkie are still in the body of the map and I wonder if they are pointing to something, so I get out Google Maps and that when I see that is where I see PB Cross is in the park. Then thinking there needs to be a confirmation of the site in the image, I see the out line of the cross in the dress. A few days later I notice that PB Cross has the four blocks on it where as the index finger in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve. Another coincidence for me. I'm not saying that know anything, but if I were remotely close, I'd drop a hole or two to find out. I just know it won't happen for me any time soon. What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been. Malted Falcon is the one who has done the most digs and is in good with the Parks crew. And he was pretty funny on the Shhhhh podcast.

drunknerds wrote:: There's an overlap of the police station existing after the current park police station opened up in the Haight. So it's logical that the station with the phoenix statue could have been made an academy-only spot by the time Preiss got there. I realized that, with the modest shrubbery in front of the pole, Preiss could have easily hidden the casque with a lookout to warn him... When Preiss was hiding the casques, he was dating his future wife, and she lived in San Francisco I'm asking my SF friends if any of them would probe around the area, I'm back to super-sure it's here: The Phoenix and door (and maybe post) are just too obscure for a walking tour, especially if they wouldn't be seen from the sidewalk at the time Entertaining that possibility, doesn't the dragon's mouth point to that spot if you align the image with the park?

commish wrote:: What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been. Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas. First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas. First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn. I would think they would still be cool with someone probing with a soil probe, confirm or rule out this location. Heck, maybe some of the residents have insight into the park in 1980. Get a cup of coffee and walk the park with some of them.

gManTexas wrote:: I would think they would still be cool with someone probing with a soil probe, confirm or rule out this location. Heck, maybe some of the residents have insight into the park in 1980. Get a cup of coffee and walk the park with some of them. Actually quite a few came out and watched and kibbutzed one insisted that he had already dug there a discovered the treasure I was digging for, he was a little shy on details though.... LOL

maltedfalcon wrote:: Actually quite a few came out and watched and kibbutzed one insisted that he had already dug there a discovered the treasure I was digging for, he was a little shy on details though.... LOL Haha, that's funny. If I was there, I'd go visit. They are probably short on visitors, and if nothing else, you might get some salty old stories.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas. First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn. Oh, shoot, you already hit that pole? Could you tell me more specifically where you probed? All around the base and maybe 3 feet out is where I wanted to probe. Why did you do the senior center if you hadn't seen the Phoenix?

Hey, FWIW, from The Secret page 12: Man, the unbelieving and unbelievable. Man, who hates and fears himself and thus despises every living thing. Man, the hewer of trees and spoiler of streams; whose fields and roads and walls are of a straight, unnatural geometry; who taught the very beasts to be dumb; fierce, clever, heavy-treading Man, who with his weapons of forged iron had lately murdered, just for sport, what was believed to be the last, and irreplaceable, Dragon .

What if "Giant Step" meant giant steppe. As in: an extensive plain, especially one without trees I think the Bison Paddock would qualify. Going back to my previous post about wrought iron dragons, there is mention of beasts: Man, the unbelieving and unbelievable. Man, who hates and fears himself and thus despises every living thing. Man, the hewer of trees and spoiler of streams; whose fields and roads and walls are of a straight, unnatural geometry; who taught the very beasts to be dumb; fierce, clever, heavy-treading Man, who with his weapons of forged iron had lately murdered, just for sport, what was believed to be the last, and irreplaceable, Dragon.

I said I was going to swear off this one, but it's nagging at me. The lack of instructions and possibly missing features in the park... Anyway, if we entertain the idea that the casque is somewhere near the Senior Center, and possibly that the dragon above the door is an inspiration, what then? Further to what I just posted about Giant Steppe being the Bison Paddock, what about Giant pole? If we look at the edge of Spreckels Lake, there is a section the juts out into the lake. Was there ever a pole there, perhaps a flagpole? Also, thinking about the boats races, people use (or used) giant poles to retrieve their boats from the water. All of this got me thinking about Twain's attention and the boat house. The boat house has about a gazillion squares on it, like Image 1. https://www.google.ca/maps/@37.7702939, ... 312!8i6656 Let's say for the sake of argument, that the casque is somewhere between the boathouse and the Paddock directly adjacent to it? Also, if we walk back the verses, how does this play out?

Goldengate wrote:: In the early 80s I attended St. Anne’s School — TWO BLOCKS from Stow Lake. The lake, botanical gardens, De Young, Steinhart, Academy of Sciences and the concourse were essentially my back yard - I was there nearly every day after school. To this day, I consider myself lucky to have had such a great place to romp. I’ve seen a lot of transformations over the years… especially after the Loma Prieta Earthquake. The museums were razed and rebuilt, erosion has taken its toll on slopes, BUT the basic shape of the park: the main roads, the pathways, the smell, the way the fog feels on your skin… it is the same as it was in the late 70s and early 80s. When I walk into the park today, it’s the same sense I got back then… one of the rare gilded age landscapes we have left in this country. To that end, here are some of my thoughts as someone who considers this park part of his DNA. Take it all with a grain of salt of course -- I hope something serves as a spark that will help one of you find the casque -- something that will be a victory for us all -- newbies and veterans alike! IMAGE 1 OBSERVATIONS: Symbol theories: 1) 112 + 113 = Latitude — 87 in her hair = Longitude (common agreement) 2) The upside down VI = 6th Ave entrance off of Fulton which had just been converted into a pedestrian entrance in 81 making it a brand new feature when Preiss buried the casque. 3) The Three circles in the form of a triangle are known as a TRIRATNA a Buddhist symbol also known as the "three jewels.” The Triratna is represented REPEATEDLY in the Chinese Pavilion, a structure that was erected in 81 and was also brand new when Preiss buried the casques. Also the Triratna symbol is the ONLY SYMBOL on her dress to be conclusively linked to GGP — there isn’t even a Yin Yang in the park that I know of, so make of that what you will... 4) The “Double D’s” on the bottom… there have been several theories. Here’s a new (maybe stupid) one to consider with a grain of salt: Grateful Dead. The first D doesn’t look complete… in fact it looks like a G. The Dead’s concerts in GGP are legendary — in the 80s, they were still very much a fabric of San Francisco. 5) The triangle with a dot in the middle -- the only iconic pyramid or triangle shape in GGP in 82 was the roof of the De Young, which is no longer there today. HER HANDS / ARMS… I agree with the consensus that this is Crossover Drive. It is important to study the map. Even the contour of her hands and wrists match EXACTLY the curves in the road as it passes just west of Stow Lake. Also yes, I get that many believe the map is flipped, and maybe it is, but also watch Expedition Unknown… this is how the original was oriented. The original was also VERY dark... so stop with the photoshopping! In terms of the first printing of the book -- we're seeing EXACTLY what they intended us to see... Priess was a BIG NYC publisher. If a major piece of art was too dark in the proofs... he would have sent it back before printing. CUFFS / SLEEVES / BLOCKS: There are many theories, but most require math and VERY SUBJECTIVE observations about how they’re placed, locations of fingers between which blocks, finger pointed up / down, the shapes being interpreted as “Square” when they are not all that way… in short, there’s a lot of random gymnastics to force an answer. If you look at it like that there are unlimited possibilities, none are clear and NONE fit neatly into a solution. Please stand back for a moment and look at the whole chess board, take it down to it’s elements. My theory (which may not be right) feels like the most simple, reasonable version. It requires no oblique translation, no math. Simply count the squares on the cuffs she’s pointing at. One sleeve: 18. The other sleeve 20. Now look at a map — any map from any year. What is 18 and 20 around that area? Answer: 18th and 20th Avenues are DIRECTLY at her cuffs and further, her fingers are pointing EXACTLY in that zone between 18th and 20th on both sides. If you draw parallels lines from 18th and 20th across the park, you’ll have a neat strip of land that encompasses the north end of Stow Lake as well as several interesting features and possible way points around the area. There's no jumping through hoops, no convoluted reasoning to reach this theory... and I don't think it's any coincidence. So far nothing I’ve read has been a more natural fit. DESIGN: Take a look at the pathways around the Stow Lake boathouse — they match some of the detail in the same area of her dress especially in the Yin Yang area. I think this is somehow significant. LINGERING IMAGE 1 QUESTIONS: There are a couple anomalies in the image which I’ve linked to here. Overall, the pattern in JJP's work from the original publication is clear. Every clue we should be able to clearly make out with our bare eye… (not photoshop filters or extreme close ups down to the pixel). The following two links show segments where there's a notable break in the pattern… and IMO both are worth further examination from the group as a whole. 1) EAGLE? This is in the loop of the dragon’s tail under its claws. You can make it out with your bare eye. I don’t think the “eye” feature is a printing artifact… the pattern here is broken up to bring out this feature… yet lets it blend in. https://imgur.com/a/sNStA 2) JFK / REAGAN / FRED FLINTSTONE FACE I don’t think this image is any of the three above. When looking at it from a different direction (see link below), I see a different face… I see a different eye. A more realistic nose position. A clear chin. Even a swept back mustache? Thoughts? https://imgur.com/a/vPZwg VERSE 7 OBSERVATIONS: STONE WALL’S DOOR I take this to be more of general meaning than others do. As you entered GGP in 82, just as you do today, much of it is surrounded by STONE WALLS… tall walls, and short walls. But don’t get locked into the idea that the stone wall’s door must to be an arch. Yes, there are bridges and tunnels in GGP with stone arches… some with barred gates (that were also there then), so it’s a possibility, but doors come in all shapes and sizes THE AIR SMELLS SWEET When you enter GGP, one of the most carefully landscaped parks in the world, the air does smell sweet… there are flowering vines, rose gardens, juniper hedges, honeysuckle, conservancy of flowers, botanical gardens, etc. THE PARK ITSELF SMELLS SWEET! HIGHT POSTS ARE THREE Consensus is Sutro Tower and I agree… in the 80s, it was even more prominent over the cityscape (many trees are higher now), but it still an enduring icon of San Francisco. TWAIN’S ATTENTION My first choice is the paddle boats. They were there in 81. There was also a renewed attention on Stow Lake because the Pavilion was NEW and a big deal! Permanent changes to GGP are RARE… when there’s a new feature, it is front and center in park maps, guide books, and shiny new signs pointing the way. In 81, the Huntington Falls were still broken but the paddle boats were out in force. You couldn't miss the sound of the mini paddle wheels lazily churning on the water. Their very name literally elicits a very central, universal image and essence of Mark Twain. This is an accessible clue — it’s not an obscure reference of one of the thousands of things and people that attracted Twain’s attention over his lifetime. Priess wanted us to find the casque by exploring OUTSIDE… not to be buried in research libraries for years (remember this is wayyyy pre-google / smart phone era). POLE / STEP: I don’t have anything here to contribute. I wish I did. My greatest fear is that this final part of the solution has been removed via landscaping or erosion. I just don’t know. I would encourage serious on the ground searchers to contact the park directly… involve them, be transparent… ask if there are landscape workers / designers who were working in the early 80s. Bring them Starbucks and a muffin. They may let you access records. Sometimes just asking nicely will go a long way. Remember, GGP administration would LOVE for the casque to be discovered… they’re tired of policing rogue diggers. Best of luck to all the searchers who will be out there this weekend! Work together, compare notes and find this thing! (I’m chasing a potty training toddler this weekend, so my treasure is something else entirely!) This is a great post and I think everyone can appreciate your insight and efforts!

Goldengate wrote:: Cool quote and words fit which is also great. I've poured over the book, too and think there are clues within the prose. One thing also to take into account is that Preiss was a PUBLISHER... also an author, but he was a publisher... like a TV or movie producer. While by all accounts he wrote the 12 verses himself, he hired people to write the book itself... and not just any writers -- these were some of the biggest names of the day. Sean Kelly was HUGE: National Lampoon, SNL, Emmy awards... a world class satirist -- he was an edgy BIG DEAL in lit circles in the early 80s. Ted Mann if it's the same Ted Mann I'm thinking of (BTW, I'm a TV writer, so these names are significant in my arena) is a very successful TV Writer / Producer. Priess also credits Barry Denenberg for "his editorial help, generous enthusiasm and care taking of this unusual endeavor" (Denenberg is a great author in his own right) -- apologies to Denenberg who will now no doubt be flooded with calls. Like the conductor of a symphony, they all worked under his direction, like JJP and others with the art. Just food for thought when we're reading the prose in the book -- not just the verse. What's up, fellow professional writer who grew up in the Bay Area! The more I think about it, the more I feel that the profile is supposed to be a mashup of Lincoln and JFK. Just to hint at the big streets that flank GGP.

Goldengate wrote:: I'd be all for it if someone, ANYONE can find a profile of Kennedy that remotely resembles that rock formation. Same with Lincoln. Personally (see long post above), I do think it's a face, just not a former president. It's Rock Hudson, you know, cuz he's made out of a rock.

It really doesn't look anything like JFK, huh? I think Reagan is the best match, that chin really resembles early 1980s political cartoons, but then what do we have? A really vague California indicator? This drawing is maddening

So Forest_Blight has posted scans that are even better than the wiki: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1264 I'd take a look, there's some crazy stuff I've never seen mentioned. FOR INSTANCE... On the rocks over her right shoulder (our left) there are these red-headed lizard looking things. What the heck are these?

maltedfalcon wrote:: I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. Yeah... John's a pretty giving guy. Have you noticed these at the Seaman's memorial in Legion?

"Giant pole, Giant step." What if the repeated use of 'giant' is there to create a comparative measurement? Like take a flagpole for instance. If a 'giant pole' were simply a 40 foot flagpole then we could assume that the 'giant step' we needed to make would be a 40 foot distance from that flagpole.

jermajerm wrote:: "Giant pole, Giant step." I even spent a couple hours last year searching for monuments to famous "Poles" like Taddeus Kosciusko. http://www.polboston.com/taddeus_kosciuszko.htm . When you approach these verses with an open mind, the possibilities are literally endless-- polar exploration, racing positions, etc. Or who knows, this could simply be referring to some kind of standalone tower somewhere near the dig site.

If we assume for a second that the jewel location on the Images is the burial spot (still iffy IMHO), then have a look at this comparison I drew out: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzj9fow2rdlwc ... 6.jpg?dl=0 After staring at Image 1 and getting frustrated with all of the various attempts to find a suitable explanation for Giant pole, Giant step I've come back to the railing with the curled ends. Can everyone chime in and explain why the railing is not the Giant pole? Has the area above the staircase been thoroughly investigated? Up the rocks and behind that tree toward Stow Lake. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7697669 ... 312!8i6656 It seems strange to me that many people that grew up near GGP and others that have a lot of knowledge of the park are unable to find the answers.

A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered: -The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework -Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998 -Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing (Source: Christopher Pollock, San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories )

treetops wrote:: A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered: -The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework -Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998 -Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing (Source: Christopher Pollock, San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories ) Just did some googling and the 1979 movie Time after Time popped up. It's set in 1979 San Fransico. If anyone want to watch it, some clues might pop out. There are scenes in GGP. Here's a review with images: http://www.nortonsmoviemaps.com/blog/archives/09-2016

Unknown: Later, in 1963, the building was decommissioned by the Police Department. The Recreation and Park Department approved a new structure for senior citizens in 1969 [...] but the 100-member John McLaren Society, a watchdog group against park development, protested that decision. The abandoned police building became the resolution to the dispute, and the renovated building was officially inaugurated as the Senior Center on July 31, 1980... For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this San Francisco's Golden Gate Park book by Christopher Pollock: So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center.

Unknown: Later, in 1963, the building was decommissioned by the Police Department. The Recreation and Park Department approved a new structure for senior citizens in 1969 [...] but the 100-member John McLaren Society, a watchdog group against park development, protested that decision. The abandoned police building became the resolution to the dispute, and the renovated building was officially inaugurated as the Senior Center on July 31, 1980... For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this San Francisco's Golden Gate Park book by Christopher Pollock: So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center.

treetops wrote:: For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this San Francisco's Golden Gate Park book by Christopher Pollock: So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center. Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds? Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time: http://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf

treetops wrote:: For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this San Francisco's Golden Gate Park book by Christopher Pollock: So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center. Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds? Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time: http://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf

drunknerds wrote:: So as you may know, I'm tunneling the senior center pretty hard as the location for this. I see the phoenix statue as an exact match, the doorway (in 1980 was a police academy and almost definitely still had the thin bars we see in old photos) is the most exact match I've seen, by far, and we might even have a match for the post. The question lies, where do we take our giant step from the giant pole right outside? The part of the verse right before this is "in jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's attention," which has been maddeningly difficult to solve. I was thinking about the most simple solve: What's the one object people most associate with Mark Twain? Probably a pen or a newspaper, those are his two things: He wrote satire and worked for newspapers. I think those two objects are the only direct answers that are really good: Many people had mentioned Fulton street, which is also good, but I don't like it anymore because: A. Fulton was a person, and Fulton street isn't really an "object," and B. Everyone loves Fulton, there's a Fulton street everywhere, it's not just Twain. So I'm thinking the solution is "take a step towards the nearest newspaper box." Now, we live in a different time, but I remember GGP in the early 80s, and there were always newspaper boxes next to bus stops. There's a bus stop right outside the senior center. I surmise that we stand at the pole, take a giant step towards the bus stop, and dig. Of course, I need to verify the bus stop was even there in 1980, or maybe even find a photo or map telling me where the newspaper box in the area was. But I think, no matter where the solution, a newspaper/newspaper box plays into it. If I do find good evidence of a newspaper box within sight of the post in 1980, I'm going to write up a solve (and mention Malted Falcon's technique for leaving no trace of digging) and ask for permission when I get to SF in September. Feel free to beat me to it, but be sure to ask permission. Wow, nice job gang, this stuff is so useful. I'm going to unpack it in a few hours when I get off work. In the meantime, here's something I posted in the wrong thread, it's about SF:

drunknerds wrote:: So as you may know, I'm tunneling the senior center pretty hard as the location for this. I see the phoenix statue as an exact match, the doorway (in 1980 was a police academy and almost definitely still had the thin bars we see in old photos) is the most exact match I've seen, by far, and we might even have a match for the post. The question lies, where do we take our giant step from the giant pole right outside? The part of the verse right before this is "in jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's attention," which has been maddeningly difficult to solve. I was thinking about the most simple solve: What's the one object people most associate with Mark Twain? Probably a pen or a newspaper, those are his two things: He wrote satire and worked for newspapers. I think those two objects are the only direct answers that are really good: Many people had mentioned Fulton street, which is also good, but I don't like it anymore because: A. Fulton was a person, and Fulton street isn't really an "object," and B. Everyone loves Fulton, there's a Fulton street everywhere, it's not just Twain. So I'm thinking the solution is "take a step towards the nearest newspaper box." Now, we live in a different time, but I remember GGP in the early 80s, and there were always newspaper boxes next to bus stops. There's a bus stop right outside the senior center. I surmise that we stand at the pole, take a giant step towards the bus stop, and dig. Of course, I need to verify the bus stop was even there in 1980, or maybe even find a photo or map telling me where the newspaper box in the area was. But I think, no matter where the solution, a newspaper/newspaper box plays into it. If I do find good evidence of a newspaper box within sight of the post in 1980, I'm going to write up a solve (and mention Malted Falcon's technique for leaving no trace of digging) and ask for permission when I get to SF in September. Feel free to beat me to it, but be sure to ask permission. Wow, nice job gang, this stuff is so useful. I'm going to unpack it in a few hours when I get off work. In the meantime, here's something I posted in the wrong thread, it's about SF:

I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper.

mindydaile wrote:: I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper. Those paddleboats jumped to mind for me as well. However, I'm reluctant to accept them because "an object" as opposed to objects and there are dozens of them, located at different points around the lake throughout the day. "First across in jewel's direction is an object of Twain's attention" makes me really want to see a fixed, unique object that, combined with "Ace is high, running north" and "giant pole, giant step" can get me to a square foot of ground, or at least within sight of a strong match to some element of image 1. In his prose, Twain does certainly use the word "attention" in the sense of having his narrator's focus drawn to a person or object. You can google this quite handily in his works on Project Gutenberg. An example search would be: site:www.gutenberg.org twain "my attention" While I doubt that some obscure passage from one of Twain's works is required for the solve, based on what we've seen with excerpts from Abroad in America I would not be shocked to find a Twain "Easter Egg" confirming the object. This could even be from one of the many 1970s-80s books about Twain or San Francisco.

gManTexas wrote:: If we assume for a second that the jewel location on the Images is the burial spot (still iffy IMHO), then have a look at this comparison I drew out: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzj9fow2rdlwc ... 6.jpg?dl=0 After staring at Image 1 and getting frustrated with all of the various attempts to find a suitable explanation for Giant pole, Giant step I've come back to the railing with the curled ends. Can everyone chime in and explain why the railing is not the Giant pole? Has the area above the staircase been thoroughly investigated? Up the rocks and behind that tree toward Stow Lake. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7697669 ... 312!8i6656 It seems strange to me that many people that grew up near GGP and others that have a lot of knowledge of the park are unable to find the answers. For me, it was a few differences: The notch above the spiral is tilted on the rose, but not on the railing: Why wouldn't JJP just make those thorns horizontal, for a match. Also, the railing spiral ends in a nice, thick circle. The rose ends by tapering off. Throw in that the pole spiral is pretty thick whereas the rose stem is brushstroke-thin, I don't think it's a match at all.

gManTexas wrote:: Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds? Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time: http://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf I think it fits perfectly: The place was probably still labeled as a police academy, with the bars on the doors, but was in transition and so was not in use by anyone. Throw in the brush that isn't there now, and that his wife might have been around for a lookout, and I'd say it's way easier than we initially thought. I love your ability to pull up all these old photos

mindydaile wrote:: I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper. Oh, yeah, the Mississippi, that's a good one too.

treetops wrote:: Wow there's so much. I really think we could pick a spot anywhere and reverse-engineer something that's of Twain's attention. Unless it's a huge one, like riverboat, the Mississip, jumping frogs, or a San Francisco newspaper, I don't think we'll ever get anywhere.

I've felt for the longest time that the best use of the line "Near ace is high" is to think of the number that beats a king. Ace's are 1st in one sense, but also like the number 14 in another if you think of J-11, Q-12, K-13, then A-14. Things that might work: a golf course, the 13th, 14th or 15th holes, since 13 and 15 are near to the number 14. Or the casque is simply near the 14th hole. a building that is 14 floors high. a street. 1st or 13th/14th/15th streets.

erexere wrote:: I've felt for the longest time that the best use of the line "Near ace is high" is to think of the number that beats a king. Ace's are 1st in one sense, but also like the number 14 in another if you think of J-11, Q-12, K-13, then A-14. Things that might work: a golf course, the 13th, 14th or 15th holes, since 13 and 15 are near to the number 14. Or the casque is simply near the 14th hole. a building that is 14 floors high. a street. 1st or 13th/14th/15th streets. I'm pretty convinced it's highway 1 through the park: - It crosses the park going east before running north (running north but first across) - It's elevated in relation to the surrounding park (sounds from the sky) - Ace is high: Ace=1, high way Wonder if we can spot that weird highway in the art, too.

drunknerds wrote:: For me, it was a few differences: The notch above the spiral is tilted on the rose, but not on the railing: Why wouldn't JJP just make those thorns horizontal, for a match. Also, the railing spiral ends in a nice, thick circle. The rose ends by tapering off. Throw in that the pole spiral is pretty thick whereas the rose stem is brushstroke-thin, I don't think it's a match at all. Too obvious perhaps? Like the deleted fleur-de-lis in Image 9.

Spirals are a very common artistic shape. We've found a zillion spirals in SF, including ones around the Phoenix sculpture. I see what you mean, but transforming a spiral makes it utterly unrecognizable. It's like painting a square as a rectangle, to me.

treetops wrote:: A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered: -The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework -Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998 -Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing (Source: Christopher Pollock, San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories ) This whole Ghirardelli Card Shelter is quite intriguing yet I can find no information on it. I would sure love to see what it looked like in the 80's.

Unknown: The card players' shelter in Golden Gate Park, a favorite haunt of the street people of the Haight-Ashbury but an embarrassment to tourists and a headache for police, has been razed. The three-sided brick structure near the park's Stanyan Street entrance was leveled by a bulldozer this week. It had been regarded by cops and park officials as an "eyesore" hangout for winos and petty criminals. But for Linda Simpson, it used to be the only home she had. "My Jamaican husband, Tarzan, and I lived there three years," said Simpson, a heavy-set woman who was drinking wine out of a bottle in a paper bag. "Everything we owned was in shopping carts - one for clothes, another for cooking pots, another for food, another for empty beer cans and soda bottles. We used to sweep up the place every day, twice a day, in fact. Last December we even had a Christmas tree in there, with a beer can on top for a star. Nobody had any money, but there was a real Christmas feeling." "I've been coming here since '63," said her friend Dorothy Campbell, who wore a black beret and called herself a "hip-ette." "A lot of people who hung out there in the daytime were elderly white guys who played dominoes and pinochle. It was a safe place at night. People used to stay in groups, and nobody would bother you." Both women complained of increased police harassment in the past month, both in the park and on Haight Street. "They called this place an `eyesore,' but what the cops are really trying to do is get rid of folks like us," said Campbell. "You notice how few people there are in the park today. They're probably just sitting in doorways on Haight Street, with no place to go." In contrast, park gardener Mike Collins said he is glad to see the shelter go. He said he was one of several workers who petitioned the Recreation and Park Commission to tear down the 53-year-old building after an assault on a gardener who was knocked unconscious and robbed. "I wish you could have seen how filthy it was," said Collins, wrinkling his nose. "The winos used it as a toilet, and the place stank of urine." Three other women, Linda, Myrna and Robin, all so financial ly strapped that they have been camping out in the park, said they avoided walking near the shelter for fear of rowdies. "At night there was a lot of screaming and people throwing bottles at each other," said Linda. "I'm glad it's gone," said Robin. "Just a lot of riff raff, just winos and drug dealers." Police Sergeant James Pera of Park Station said 100 complaints had been received this year about thefts, assaults, concealed weapons, drunks, drug dealing and intimidation of tourists and children near the shelter. "Those winos made a garbage can out of the whole area," said Pera. Jim Rogers, the park's assistant superintendent, said the shelter was erected in April 1933 as a gift to the city from Domingo Ghirardelli, of the chocolate family. Rogers said the area will be planted with rhododendrons and a few picnic tables will be installed. Plans call for a new gazebo-like shelter for card and dominoes players to be built about a mile away, near Fulton Street and Third Avenue. "The cost will be about $47,000, and we're going to recycle the original ironwork and the Ghirardelli plaque," said Rogers. Caption: PHOTOLinda Simpson pointed to former location of park shelter, where she lived for three years / BY DEANNE FITZMAURICE/THE CHRONICLE Here's what I've got so far, from an August 2, 1986 SF Chronicle article: It looks like this former shelter was in a different part of the park even, at the extreme eastern end. As described in the article, it sounds like a place I hope Preiss would steer clear of as a burial site. It's really a question of how much difference five years made.

Good detective work. I was thinking that the location probably ruled it out, but that article kinda seals the deal.

I am just curious how man people on these boards think that Shake spears Garden has a major role in this puzzle? I think it does but would like to hear from people in the hunt.

Goonie68 wrote:: I am just curious how man people on these boards think that Shake spears Garden has a major role in this puzzle? I think it does but would like to hear from people in the hunt. My gut is telling me no, but my head is saying that BP, being a literary guy, probably thought it was important. The watch on the pedestal sure looks like the sundial in the garden.

Shakespeare? No. The Dragon from Far Cathay. His pearl. The strange people. I think it has some kind of far distance arragement of landmarks, but wherever it leads, I don't see any parallels that would sensibly include Sir W.S. In the past, I've gone full DaVinci Code with the SF map, but drawing a large upside down crucifix to connect to Diablo Point just doesn't feel right either.

Ok how about the table and the clock does that represent the sun dial in the Garden?? Strong or weak??

Shouldn't we expect the strength of a visual clue to depend largely on the reasons that brought you to the site in the first place? One might approach the puzzle in the broadest sense to include all spaces in the SF area, but examples taken from puzzles in Cleveland and Chicago may have taught us to constrain our approaches. We(rather johann) considered the Greek Gardens for obvious cultural reasons. Chicago's Grant Park makes sense in that the likeness of Ullyses Grant is merged with the giants face. Some clues were found at a good distance from the treasures but that seems to be more to do with iconic or familiar city references and than a straight sensible path connected those landmarks, i.e. Terminal Tower or Chicago Water Tower. What obvious landmarks in SF might afford us the same opportunity? The Trans America Pyramid? The Golden Gate Bridge? The Ghirardelli sign? Coit Tower? If something like that gets you to look at a sundial in a park by a straightforward route, maybe you are on the right track.

Goonie68 wrote:: Ok how about the table and the clock does that represent the sun dial in the Garden?? Strong or weak?? Frustrating, because it would have been so easy, and consistent with practice elsewhere in the book, to have the table base in image 1 match the sundial's base, and it just doesn't. If someone can show that the sundial was replaced at the same time the gates and paving stones were installed, then maybe we'll have something.

This might be a shitpost, but I'd like to point out a couple things in Image 1 that I have been frustrated by and that I haven't seen much discussion of. The two areas are circled in the image below: 1) The "hump" in the border of th design on the dress near the Dragon's wings appears deliberate, maybe representing a hill. With its proximity to Strawberry Hill and the yin-yang symbol, perhaps it's the other island to the east of the Strawberry Hill island in Stow Lake. 2) The lower circle is a portion of the dress where the border of the design slopes outward to make space for the twisting of the dragon's tail. This too seems deliberate, since no where else on the dress does the tail impact the outside border of the design on the dress. I haven't been able to locate what either of these two things represent (if anything), but I'm hoping mentioning them here will maybe spark something for someone else. With as much detail as this Image has compared to many of the others, I'm hoping there's plenty of things hiding in plain sight that we haven't been able to piece together yet to give us a firm dig site.

Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out. I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing: 37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the senior center is. If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.

Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out. I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing: 37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the senior center is. If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.

Looks forced.

erexere wrote:: Looks forced. How so?

drunknerds wrote:: Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out. I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. As I understand it, the theory is the arms represent "crossover drive", so things the map gets moved up and flipped to match the arms and the flair on the dress and most of what is west of crossover drive isn't represented in the Image. Again, it's all a theory until someone digs the damn thing up. Even then, we're still speculating at what some of the things in the Cleveland and Chicago verses and images could represent so many years later. The Senior Center is my favorite location for a dig right now. Your images line up pretty nicely to support that theory, if that's what she is pointing at. The curvature of her thumb and index finger on her right hand seems to outline Middle Drive West and Metson Road pretty closely too.

drunknerds wrote:: Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out. I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. As I understand it, the theory is the arms represent "crossover drive", so things the map gets moved up and flipped to match the arms and the flair on the dress and most of what is west of crossover drive isn't represented in the Image. Again, it's all a theory until someone digs the damn thing up. Even then, we're still speculating at what some of the things in the Cleveland and Chicago verses and images could represent so many years later. The Senior Center is my favorite location for a dig right now. Your images line up pretty nicely to support that theory, if that's what she is pointing at. The curvature of her thumb and index finger on her right hand seems to outline Middle Drive West and Metson Road pretty closely too.

I've been having this feeling that we are being misled by "object of Twains attention" and I think I've come across some level of connection. Object of Twain's attention has (possibly) two meanings here. 1. Theres evidence that Twain based Sawyer and Finn on Quixote and Sancho. "He said if I warn’t so ignorant, but had read a book called Don Quixote, I would know without asking." This is a quote straight from The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. In any case, Twain spent a lot of time with that book and allowing it to shape his characters. It was on his mind as he wrote. 2. The Cervantes statue. If we look at this statue we see Don and Sancho looking up at a bust of Cervantes with rapt attention and admiration. Here twain simply means 2 as in it's archaic sense. Cervantes is the object of twos (twains) attention. We have overlapping meanings putting us at a singular location.

Ha, looks like we both came up with the same brainstorm, jerm: something that points to Twain in two different ways. We've got another landmark that does it, will post after work.

So, Gmantexas and I have been scouring photos to make a solve which might have legs. Naturally, we built this on the shoulders of the giants who researched before us, but there's some new stuff I hope you find exciting. Or at least entertaining. Check the end for a great SF historical photo resource and ways you can help (besides, of course, giving your constructive criticism, which is always welcome.) Location: Golden Gate Park Lat-longitude and Golden Gate Park map are all we need to get us to the park. This one's a walking tour! At Stone Wall's door, the air smells sweet Shakespeare's Garden. Stone wall with a famous door in it in GGP. Surrounded by gardens. Not Far Away, High Posts are Three Sutro Tower. Kind of a Gimme because antennae on a hill can be seen from most parts of a city. Sounds from the sky, near Ace is high. Running North Ace=1. High=Highway. Highway 1 is elevated if you walk towards the north end it from Shakespeare's garden. While walking there from Shakespeare's garden using the route shown, we go down the stairs with our famous rail (at B in the map above): Past the Chinese Pavilion (Yin Yang on her smock in Image 1) Around Stowe Lake, seeing Huntington Falls: Strawberry Hill (the strawberry in her smock under her arms) and the ruins of Sweeny observatory (the 11 planets in the sky). Now we're at C. We still have to make our way up and around to where highway 1 runs north out of the park. But first across Triple meaning: Prayerbook Cross is at D. Crossover drive is right there. Plus it's where highway 1 turns E-W while crossing the park. Education and Justice for all to see Which way now? But where? For a long time we've been hitting our head against the wall with this clue: In jewel's direction Lies an object of Twain's attention. Twain went everywhere and wrote about everything. Preiss had to have known this. So, in order to prevent ambiguity, maybe he'd pick somewhere that has TWO things that are hugely associated with Twain. I surveyed a ton of people, and overwhelmingly 5 things were repeated when I asked, "what do you most associate with Twain:" - He wrote satire - He loved boats. Like a lot. - He wrote Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer - He wrote for newspapers - He loved the Mississippi River. Immediately adjacent to the senior center/police academy is Spreckels lake(E on the map). In fact, it could be seen as the only thing of note next to the sr. center. - Spreckels lake was a man made lake made for fans of boats to race their models. Lots of boats there. - Spreckels lake was named after a man who owned the newspaper Mark Twain got his start writing for Immediately after Spreckels lake, we arrive at a police academy (F on the map). It's at 37th street (37 in her hair) Leading evidence is that this police academy closed in 1980 and got turned into a senior center. So it is quite possible that, when Preiss hid the casque, there was no civilian foot traffic, and someone in a hard hat and reflective vest wouldn't seem odd at all. Plus his then-gf (who became his wife) could have played lookout. If I can stumble in Golden Gate park on hardcore drugs for hours at a time without police attention, someone sober could easily dig a hole and not be bothered. Here's the top of the door today... note the phoenix statues above the door: Now, we turn to the image for dig confirmers. There are a bunch! - The Dragon in the image matches the phoenix above the police academy door in five different ways. Weird ways, like having two different-sized fangs and a stubby chin. Also note the weirdly curved tail, and the flowers in the design. Roses? - The post the dragon matches is a match at 5/6 points, and only a little narrower than it should be at the sixth point. - The door matches the one in the image. Especially if you are standing at the flagpole- Notches in the arch, smooth sides, and bricks on the bottom. There aren't bars there, now, but the police academy picture above, and this one from 1965 show there were bars. Not how pronounced the spaces are between the bricks at the bottom, just like in Image 1. While no photo evidence has been found, the bars had to have been there in 1980: SFPD had incidents all through the 70s of radicals rolling into police stations and opening fire. All of this stuff has been here for much longer than 1980 Further confirmation of this spot as the dig site: If you overlay Golden Gate Park's map over her smock, her finger points towards 37th street and Fulton, where the police academy is located: So where exactly do we dig? Giant Pole, giant step To the place the jewel is kept Ah, there's a huge flagpole there that was definitely in the same place in 1980, as this photo from 1941 shows: Facing the door from the sidewalk, turn towards the giantpole and take a giant step Other stuff: - Can someone get a more exact match for her hairline & Spreckels Lake, North lake in 1980 and the pelican, and does anyone see the old, blanket covered woman with a fountain pen? If that retaining wall in the SE wasn't there, her hairline seems a pretty good match for Spreckels lake. I know people like it as the bridge coming in from the headlands, but that seems really obscure and redundant. North Lake people have said the pelican blue blob matched both the south side in 1980 and the north side in 1903. I could only find a map of 1903: On the lighter side, We can't stop seeing a wrinkled, sitting old person covered in a blanket here: A denizen of the senior center? - This is a great resource for digital photos of old-timey SF. The women graduating the police academy photo above was found here, and I don't think it's readily available by trying the usual avenues on Google Image Search http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82 Our current main issues: 1 Why is there no pole in Image 1? If it is the major clue shouldn't it appear somewhere? This might be our missing final "step" for the dig mentioned above. Maybe it's in the clock because, again, that hasn't been used yet. 2 For a pole, the flagpole is pretty giant. For a flagpole, it's pretty average-sized, though 3 Why the flip is this so hard for a pearl? I mean you can get a pearl for cheap!!

So, Gmantexas and I have been scouring photos to make a solve which might have legs. Naturally, we built this on the shoulders of the giants who researched before us, but there's some new stuff I hope you find exciting. Or at least entertaining. Check the end for a great SF historical photo resource and ways you can help (besides, of course, giving your constructive criticism, which is always welcome.) Location: Golden Gate Park Lat-longitude and Golden Gate Park map are all we need to get us to the park. This one's a walking tour! At Stone Wall's door, the air smells sweet Shakespeare's Garden. Stone wall with a famous door in it in GGP. Surrounded by gardens. Not Far Away, High Posts are Three Sutro Tower. Kind of a Gimme because antennae on a hill can be seen from most parts of a city. Sounds from the sky, near Ace is high. Running North Ace=1. High=Highway. Highway 1 is elevated if you walk towards the north end it from Shakespeare's garden. While walking there from Shakespeare's garden using the route shown, we go down the stairs with our famous rail (at B in the map above): Past the Chinese Pavilion (Yin Yang on her smock in Image 1) Around Stowe Lake, seeing Huntington Falls: Strawberry Hill (the strawberry in her smock under her arms) and the ruins of Sweeny observatory (the 11 planets in the sky). Now we're at C. We still have to make our way up and around to where highway 1 runs north out of the park. But first across Triple meaning: Prayerbook Cross is at D. Crossover drive is right there. Plus it's where highway 1 turns E-W while crossing the park. Education and Justice for all to see Which way now? But where? For a long time we've been hitting our head against the wall with this clue: In jewel's direction Lies an object of Twain's attention. Twain went everywhere and wrote about everything. Preiss had to have known this. So, in order to prevent ambiguity, maybe he'd pick somewhere that has TWO things that are hugely associated with Twain. I surveyed a ton of people, and overwhelmingly 5 things were repeated when I asked, "what do you most associate with Twain:" - He wrote satire - He loved boats. Like a lot. - He wrote Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer - He wrote for newspapers - He loved the Mississippi River. Immediately adjacent to the senior center/police academy is Spreckels lake(E on the map). In fact, it could be seen as the only thing of note next to the sr. center. - Spreckels lake was a man made lake made for fans of boats to race their models. Lots of boats there. - Spreckels lake was named after a man who owned the newspaper Mark Twain got his start writing for Immediately after Spreckels lake, we arrive at a police academy (F on the map). It's at 37th street (37 in her hair) Leading evidence is that this police academy closed in 1980 and got turned into a senior center. So it is quite possible that, when Preiss hid the casque, there was no civilian foot traffic, and someone in a hard hat and reflective vest wouldn't seem odd at all. Plus his then-gf (who became his wife) could have played lookout. If I can stumble in Golden Gate park on hardcore drugs for hours at a time without police attention, someone sober could easily dig a hole and not be bothered. Here's the top of the door today... note the phoenix statues above the door: Now, we turn to the image for dig confirmers. There are a bunch! - The Dragon in the image matches the phoenix above the police academy door in five different ways. Weird ways, like having two different-sized fangs and a stubby chin. Also note the weirdly curved tail, and the flowers in the design. Roses? - The post the dragon matches is a match at 5/6 points, and only a little narrower than it should be at the sixth point. - The door matches the one in the image. Especially if you are standing at the flagpole- Notches in the arch, smooth sides, and bricks on the bottom. There aren't bars there, now, but the police academy picture above, and this one from 1965 show there were bars. Not how pronounced the spaces are between the bricks at the bottom, just like in Image 1. While no photo evidence has been found, the bars had to have been there in 1980: SFPD had incidents all through the 70s of radicals rolling into police stations and opening fire. All of this stuff has been here for much longer than 1980 Further confirmation of this spot as the dig site: If you overlay Golden Gate Park's map over her smock, her finger points towards 37th street and Fulton, where the police academy is located: So where exactly do we dig? Giant Pole, giant step To the place the jewel is kept Ah, there's a huge flagpole there that was definitely in the same place in 1980, as this photo from 1941 shows: Facing the door from the sidewalk, turn towards the giantpole and take a giant step Other stuff: - Can someone get a more exact match for her hairline & Spreckels Lake, North lake in 1980 and the pelican, and does anyone see the old, blanket covered woman with a fountain pen? If that retaining wall in the SE wasn't there, her hairline seems a pretty good match for Spreckels lake. I know people like it as the bridge coming in from the headlands, but that seems really obscure and redundant. North Lake people have said the pelican blue blob matched both the south side in 1980 and the north side in 1903. I could only find a map of 1903: On the lighter side, We can't stop seeing a wrinkled, sitting old person covered in a blanket here: A denizen of the senior center? - This is a great resource for digital photos of old-timey SF. The women graduating the police academy photo above was found here, and I don't think it's readily available by trying the usual avenues on Google Image Search http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82 Our current main issues: 1 Why is there no pole in Image 1? If it is the major clue shouldn't it appear somewhere? This might be our missing final "step" for the dig mentioned above. Maybe it's in the clock because, again, that hasn't been used yet. 2 For a pole, the flagpole is pretty giant. For a flagpole, it's pretty average-sized, though 3 Why the flip is this so hard for a pearl? I mean you can get a pearl for cheap!!

More old-timey pictures of the pole, too if you can find them. Looks like it used to have some weird casing/design on the bottom.

Awesome. Thats some good light reading. One major thing that stands out to me is that Sweeney observatory never housed a telescope, it was more of a "Climb up here and look at the city" kind of observatory.

and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched. searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.

and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched. searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.

Will a metal detector pick up the casque??

Goonie68 wrote:: Will a metal detector pick up the casque?? see the casque 13 thread... it would need to be a very good metal detector, most have a depth limit of 6-8 inches...

maltedfalcon wrote:: and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched. searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector. Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort. - What is "in front of?" Do you mean "by the flag pole towards the senior center?" There was a bush there for many years, so there's a chance he would have had to avoid that section. - Did you "search" the posted solve area, which is not next to the flag pole, but more towards the sidewalk? That's one of the new parts I'm excited about: For years we've been trying to figure out in which direction to step away from the pole, but the lack of direction directly implies the pole is our final guidepost and we should be taking a step towards it. I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center.

maltedfalcon wrote:: and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched. searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector. Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort. - What is "in front of?" Do you mean "by the flag pole towards the senior center?" There was a bush there for many years, so there's a chance he would have had to avoid that section. - Did you "search" the posted solve area, which is not next to the flag pole, but more towards the sidewalk? That's one of the new parts I'm excited about: For years we've been trying to figure out in which direction to step away from the pole, but the lack of direction directly implies the pole is our final guidepost and we should be taking a step towards it. I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center.

drunknerds wrote:: Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort. I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center. I stepped away from the pole towards the street

drunknerds wrote:: I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, I believe probing is useless, That doesn't mean I haven't tried it. The only time probing would be useful is if the casque is intact and in its box, and the soil was extremely soft. Only then could you probe enough that you could determine the size and shape of the target (square) 5x5 inches. anything else requires you to dig to be sure. and if the box is broken all bets are off. IF the soil has any kind of strength it would be possible to push a probe through the casque without realizing it was there. Still this is actually the kind of scenario I created casque 13 to try out for sure...

Thanks, Malted. Great stuff, as always.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I believe probing is useless, That doesn't mean I haven't tried it. The only time probing would be useful is if the casque is intact and in its box, and the soil was extremely soft. Only then could you probe enough that you could determine the size and shape of the target (square) 5x5 inches. anything else requires you to dig to be sure. and if the box is broken all bets are off. IF the soil has any kind of strength it would be possible to push a probe through the casque without realizing it was there. Still this is actually the kind of scenario I created casque 13 to try out for sure... I don't have my data with my, and this is probably just retreading, but I believe the only thing that would damage a casque without direct contact is a freeze. SF's had a few freezes in the last 35 years. Still, it couldn't have been as hard as cleveland (and the cleveland casque had wayyyyy less surrounding soil to absorb the freeze), and they still pulled like 2/3 of that plexiglass box out intact.

drunknerds wrote:: but I believe the only thing that would damage a casque without direct contact is a freeze. Nothing says no direct contact. a trencher, an earthquake, surface pressure (a vehicle driving over) a backhoe, new construction roots, gophers a gardner. Being a casque in the ground is a dangerous thing...

Matledfalcon have you dug anywhere near Shakespeare's garden, not in the garden but maybe area's around it? Just curious?

Goonie68 wrote:: Matledfalcon have you dug anywhere near Shakespeare's garden, not in the garden but maybe area's around it? Just curious? rose garden yes, shakespeare garden no Also remember in 2005 major changes in that area.

See that mound in the lower right of the corner? that is all the sidewalks and walkways in the area. They were plowed up and replaced in 2005 to make them all ADA accessible, that includes the walkways through the Shakespeare garden and all the areas in front of the band shell So if the casque was there, in this picture it is probably in the lower right hand corner... LOL

Thanks for your insight! Very valuable!!!!

Disregard the FB post, I got my answer. Thanks!

I can't seem to see any threads on the number "38" that number within the hair. Any theory's that it could be a 36?

Goonie68 wrote:: I can't seem to see any threads on the number "38" that number within the hair. Any theory's that it could be a 36? sure looks like an 8 to me.

So no really hard evidence that 38 is a clue? I mean the coordinates are 37 122 and 38 does not show up? The reason I say this is that the loop on the top is smaller then the bottom loop usually the loops are the same when writing an 8 ? Just my opinion..

Goonie68 wrote:: usually the loops are the same when writing an 8 ? Just my opinion.. Look at that 8 the upper loop is smaller...

My argument for the # 36 is that, in my theory, My starting point is 37 ave, senior center, from there in the verse it does not tell you which way to go left, right, up, down, sideways? 36 avenue is one block down from the senior center and it is the entry way to the park. It make sense to me that this clue gives you a direct place to enter the park.

Goonie68 wrote:: My argument for the # 36 is that, in my theory, My starting point is 37 ave, senior center, from there in the verse it does not tell you which way to go left, right, up, down, sideways? 36 avenue is one block down from the senior center and it is the entry way to the park. It make sense to me that this clue gives you a direct place to enter the park. Logically that makes sense, but I'm sure the 38 is the lat/lon, However isn't that the entrance to chain of lakes drive? When I worked that area here is the link I thought connected it for me. This is from a 1982 tourist map of ggpark. The area has been bulldozed and changed a lot but back then...

The Senior Center still doesn't interest me. I think people are shoehorning. We all have that tendency, so I understand, it's just nothing really seems to fit in a definitive way. Making things work to fit a desirable outcome is a waste of time (unless it just happens to be right). I've scrapped most all of my notions about how SF was planned. What if the Trans America Pyramid is the starting point? Heading west takes you directly through a Chinatown district. I like the road name that takes you on that path: Clay St. An interesting footnote might be made about ancient pottery made from clay. One of the first methods to make pottery involved rolling the clay into snake like coils as opposed to more modern methods like using a wheel. I even wondered if the clock on the center of the table is a subtle reference to a potters wheel, in which case the clay would be in the middle so it could rotate evenly. Looking at the interesting grayish textured pattern of the dragon on the woman's robe, it also reminds me of working on a block of clay. So taking Clay St. to it's termination we find ourselves at Arguello St. Nearby is the Emanu-El temple. I feel like this is a good track, that is IF we are meant to start at the TAP building similar to how Cleveland seemed to have the Terminal Tower in mind as a route anchor. So what's the best next step from Arguello St.?

maltedfalcon wrote:: Damn thing will probably turn out to be another of JJP's drawings that Byron scribbled over.

erexere wrote:: The Senior Center still doesn't interest me. I think people are shoehorning. We all have that tendency, so I understand, it's just nothing really seems to fit in a definitive way. Making things work to fit a desirable outcome is a waste of time (unless it just happens to be right). I've scrapped most all of my notions about how SF was planned. What if the Trans America Pyramid is the starting point? Heading west takes you directly through a Chinatown district. I like the road name that takes you on that path: Clay St. An interesting footnote might be made about ancient pottery made from clay. One of the first methods to make pottery involved rolling the clay into snake like coils as opposed to more modern methods like using a wheel. I even wondered if the clock on the center of the table is a subtle reference to a potters wheel, in which case the clay would be in the middle so it could rotate evenly. Looking at the interesting grayish textured pattern of the dragon on the woman's robe, it also reminds me of working on a block of clay. So taking Clay St. to it's termination we find ourselves at Arguello St. Nearby is the Emanu-El temple. I feel like this is a good track, that is IF we are meant to start at the TAP building similar to how Cleveland seemed to have the Terminal Tower in mind as a route anchor. So what's the best next step from Arguello St.? Has anyone sat down with a street map of SF and Image 1 to match the patterns in the dragon's body to city blocks in SF? There HAS to be a reason that the blocks are varying sizes and some do not line up. For example, if I look at the wing of the dragon that is fully exposed, I see (possibly mirrored) the area labeled Rincon Hill down to South of Market with the bend to Mission Dist. Would this place the dragon over Chinatown? Is the Yin Yang symbol over Chinatown? I don't know if I have the patience and I certainly don't have a 1982 AAA map. What is intriguing is the first big coil of the tail and the section just below it between the X and A in the image. There are small blocks and large ones. Like I said, there has to be significance to this and may give us some additional clues.

gManTexas wrote:: Has anyone sat down with a street map of SF and Image 1 to match the patterns in the dragon's body to city blocks in SF? There HAS to be a reason that the blocks are varying sizes and some do not line up. For example, if I look at the wing of the dragon that is fully exposed, I see (possibly mirrored) the area labeled Rincon Hill down to South of Market with the bend to Mission Dist. Would this place the dragon over Chinatown? Is the Yin Yang symbol over Chinatown? I don't know if I have the patience and I certainly don't have a 1982 AAA map. What is intriguing is the first big coil of the tail and the section just below it between the X and A in the image. There are small blocks and large ones. Like I said, there has to be significance to this and may give us some additional clues. Yes there is a part that matches over by coit tower it is in the archives here somewhere.

An interesting association for the number 38 is the much decorated USS San Francisco (CA-38) which suffered no damage during the events of the Attack on Pearl Harbor.

The table and watch might be there as they are similar to a potters wheel.

Well no casque today! But it was a productive day. I made a good connection with the grounds supervisor and gave me some good info about the area I was at. Plus info about all the knuckle heads that are digging without permission. He told me I was the first in his section to go through the correct procedure to dig. The dig was supervised by a grounds supervisor and a Park Police Officer. The Officer took pictures and documented the dig, for there use only. You are only allowed 1 hole. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26438166048/in/dateposted-public/ This is from the location. You have 360 degree view of all. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26322764448/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39297521435/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39297490345/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25324000197/in/dateposted-public/ I am not claiming that I have solved anything, just that my research and the body of work brought me to this location that's all. It is subjective of course, the spot, but there are many markers from the illustration from this spot. Shakespeare Garden( Sun dial), Suto Towers, De Young, Steinhert Aquarium (then) Japanese Garden, The Congregation Emanu-El San Francisco( which could be in the upper left corner of the illustration) and without 30 years of tree growth you would of been able to see the botanical gardens. The spot has not had any work done to it in over 40 years, confirmed by the grounds supervisor. One other note that the De Young back in the 80's had a tower and arched windows that possible match the arched door in the illustration. This would of been another marker from that location. And that concludes today!

Sounds like a fun day. Did they seem like they'd give you another shot?

Yes for sure.

Goldengate wrote:: Hey Goonie! You’re doing it the right way — and really interesting spot to boot! Thank you for sharing! +1

Goonie, great job trying out your theory. And it was awesome that you went through the proper channels. GGP seems to be chill about the hunt, I'd hate for a bunch of illegal/messy diggers to sour this attitude. Sorry you didn't find the casque!

Thanks! I want to do this the right way and make it possible for others to have the same experience, the reward is doing it right even know you come out of it empty handed, but I'll keep going! LOL

Good job Goonies. Question, are you required to pay for the dig permission?

No payment required

How do people feel about the 4 symbols near the G and h on the robe? The two near the G are a triangle and square, the two near the h are a square and circle (or octagon). I see traffic signs in this. If the image is flipped, the Great Highway makes more sense, and the traffic signs also make sense. Thoughts?

If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway? I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols? When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get: -Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole -Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4 -Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol -A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)

If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway? I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I , II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols? When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get: -Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole -Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4 -Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I 'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol -A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)

Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?

Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?

treetops wrote:: If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway? I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols? When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get: -Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole -Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4 -Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol -A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?) I get that, but think about walking around or driving. I don't think any of this is that deep in the sense of alchemy or code. In actual orientation, the Great Highway (or Great highway) is busier on the south side, a divided section with 6 or 7 lanes, versus the north side of the park which is a normal double lane highway with maybe 4 or 5 lanes at the intersection. Looking to the north side, I see a that there would be stop sign and a square turn to the left sign. On the south side, which is crazy busy, I see a caution merge and possibly a turning circle sign. It would be great to see photos from the 80s of the Great highway, but when I look at the mirrored image from The Secret, the icons (can we call them that?) seem more prominent on the "G" side, which would be south. The mirror image, at least on the top half also "looks right" but maybe that's just the G h talking.

treetops wrote:: If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway? I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I , II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols? When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get: -Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole -Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4 -Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I 'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol -A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?) I get that, but think about walking around or driving. I don't think any of this is that deep in the sense of alchemy or code. In actual orientation, the Great Highway (or Great highway) is busier on the south side, a divided section with 6 or 7 lanes, versus the north side of the park which is a normal double lane highway with maybe 4 or 5 lanes at the intersection. Looking to the north side, I see a that there would be stop sign and a square turn to the left sign. On the south side, which is crazy busy, I see a caution merge and possibly a turning circle sign. It would be great to see photos from the 80s of the Great highway, but when I look at the mirrored image from The Secret, the icons (can we call them that?) seem more prominent on the "G" side, which would be south. The mirror image, at least on the top half also "looks right" but maybe that's just the G h talking.

erexere wrote:: Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice? Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols. If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have: 14 hG 43 The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?

erexere wrote:: Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice? Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols. If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have: 14 hG 43 The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?

treetops wrote:: Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols. If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have: 14 hG 43 The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified? I 'm not discounting any other theories, just looking at this from a on-the-ground practical view point. I 've been staring at these puzzles for maybe a month and thinking from a lot of directions, but mostly 1 or 2 layers deep. If I was searching for a treasure in 1982, I wouldn't think much beyond that. Yes, that is an affirmation that we have become smarter, maybe to our chagrin, and rely too much on the internet or other resources. Let's roll back to 1982. What do we have at our disposal? A street map, historical writings, people, and our senses. We could ride in a car or other standard mode of transportation and observe. We can walk around. We can look at a map. We can ask people what was important. Beyond that we have nothing. When this was done in 1982, they (being the authors and the illustrators) had not much to go on. A map. A tale. A body of water or land. Traffic signs. Things that show up in Polaroids or maybe old photos. The authors, primarily Preiss, had an interest in selling books. Why would they create something layers and layers deep that could not be solved? Maybe to give up only a few casques, but I don't think so. So let's reel it in and consider what was the intent. I think to create some easy and some slightly harder puzzles for people to solve. The author himself said that he expected these to be solved in a few months. Granted what is easy to one person may not be to everyone, but I believe that the more time that passes, people mistakenly believe that these are more complicated than they are. The major problem I see is that the book did not get the traction it was intended to, and probably deserved, when released. Given the relatively fluid changes in these public works (being the locations), and the general thought processes of humanity, some things are lost over time. It is hard in 2018 to picture what the culture and social outlook was in 1982, even if you lived it. Hell, I hardly remember 10 years ago. Coming back to what I said in my last post, why not simplify? Let's go back to '82. I figure out that the girl in the Image is a representation of Golden Gate Park. She is a map. Wait, the Great Hwy is reversed, no problem, I 'll get a mirror. This is basic sleuth stuff. I had a secret decoder ring in the 60's or 70's from the back of a comic book. Okay, what's next? Heck, some of these features look familiar. I drill down and match a verse that makes sense. Was Chicago or Cleveland that complicated? No, maybe more straightforward, but not complicated, like you needed an advanced dual-degree in ancient Nordic astrology and biophysics to understand these riddles. I believe that this book was Preiss' greatest achievement and failure at the same time. It's possible that he lamented this fact later, when our predecessors found the casque in Cleveland, He marveled at the fact that they were so ambitious and worked so hard for years to crack this code, and yet he seemed to have moved on from this chapter, while retaining some youthful enthusiasm, like finding an old dairy that was well written but full of pubescent braggadocio. Let's go back to basics here, especially for San Francisco. There's an image that is actually well defined by map placement. There's a verse, if by no other reason, by process of elimination. There are some clues. Could it be that hard? I don't think so. Does the casque exist? Maybe. Time has passed. Things have changed. But at the heart of it, there is a solution, and I doubt it is complicated. Look at the things that are generally immovable, like rivers and main streets. Stuff that shows up in searches over years and years. The objects, the shapes. They still exist. Finding them is the key.

treetops wrote:: Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols. If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have: 14 hG 43 The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified? I'm not discounting any other theories, just looking at this from a on-the-ground practical view point. I've been staring at these puzzles for maybe a month and thinking from a lot of directions, but mostly 1 or 2 layers deep. If I was searching for a treasure in 1982, I wouldn't think much beyond that. Yes, that is an affirmation that we have become smarter, maybe to our chagrin, and rely too much on the internet or other resources. Let's roll back to 1982. What do we have at our disposal? A street map, historical writings, people, and our senses. We could ride in a car or other standard mode of transportation and observe. We can walk around. We can look at a map. We can ask people what was important. Beyond that we have nothing. When this was done in 1982, they (being the authors and the illustrators) had not much to go on. A map. A tale. A body of water or land. Traffic signs. Things that show up in Polaroids or maybe old photos. The authors, primarily Preiss, had an interest in selling books. Why would they create something layers and layers deep that could not be solved? Maybe to give up only a few casques, but I don't think so. So let's reel it in and consider what was the intent. I think to create some easy and some slightly harder puzzles for people to solve. The author himself said that he expected these to be solved in a few months. Granted what is easy to one person may not be to everyone, but I believe that the more time that passes, people mistakenly believe that these are more complicated than they are. The major problem I see is that the book did not get the traction it was intended to, and probably deserved, when released. Given the relatively fluid changes in these public works (being the locations), and the general thought processes of humanity, some things are lost over time. It is hard in 2018 to picture what the culture and social outlook was in 1982, even if you lived it. Hell, I hardly remember 10 years ago. Coming back to what I said in my last post, why not simplify? Let's go back to '82. I figure out that the girl in the Image is a representation of Golden Gate Park. She is a map. Wait, the Great Hwy is reversed, no problem, I'll get a mirror. This is basic sleuth stuff. I had a secret decoder ring in the 60's or 70's from the back of a comic book. Okay, what's next? Heck, some of these features look familiar. I drill down and match a verse that makes sense. Was Chicago or Cleveland that complicated? No, maybe more straightforward, but not complicated, like you needed an advanced dual-degree in ancient Nordic astrology and biophysics to understand these riddles. I believe that this book was Preiss' greatest achievement and failure at the same time. It's possible that he lamented this fact later, when our predecessors found the casque in Cleveland, He marveled at the fact that they were so ambitious and worked so hard for years to crack this code, and yet he seemed to have moved on from this chapter, while retaining some youthful enthusiasm, like finding an old dairy that was well written but full of pubescent braggadocio. Let's go back to basics here, especially for San Francisco. There's an image that is actually well defined by map placement. There's a verse, if by no other reason, by process of elimination. There are some clues. Could it be that hard? I don't think so. Does the casque exist? Maybe. Time has passed. Things have changed. But at the heart of it, there is a solution, and I doubt it is complicated. Look at the things that are generally immovable, like rivers and main streets. Stuff that shows up in searches over years and years. The objects, the shapes. They still exist. Finding them is the key.

Great thoughts gmanTexas. This doesn't look like a simple image. A woman with her arms crossed -never a good sign..., standing, next to a table, watch, rose, and some prison gate in the side of a hill in the distance. Don't forget there's a bunch of big white orbs in the sky (making sounds?). She has a pearl for a prominentia laryngea. Perhaps the object of Twain's attention, meant to be the pearl in this image, has something to do with the Extracts from Adam's Diary. This leads me again to the Three Shades ( Adam ) sculpture once located at the Palace of the Legion of Honor on that car sized plinth.

Great thoughts gmanTexas. This doesn't look like a simple image. A woman with her arms crossed -never a good sign..., standing, next to a table, watch, rose, and some prison gate in the side of a hill in the distance. Don't forget there's a bunch of big white orbs in the sky (making sounds?). She has a pearl for a prominentia laryngea. Perhaps the object of Twain's attention, meant to be the pearl in this image, has something to do with the Extracts from Adam's Diary. This leads me again to the Three Shades ( Adam ) sculpture once located at the Palace of the Legion of Honor on that car sized plinth.

The take I have on what resources that people would of had back in 1980's to what we have today, is different, i think speed is what we have to day verses 1980. Meaning we have technology that gives us information quicker. For these puzzles all you would of needed is.... A class room (what we learned in school) a Map of the area, A library, and a magnifying glass. The same as we have today . Internet (classroom) Map( google earth), Library (wiki and google) Magnifying glass (computer). Priess was a very smart man Graduated top of his class at Pennsylvania university and Masters at Stanford. So to him easy might not of been easy to common folk. I just think back in the 80's we had all the things we have today but just today is much quicker in our movement.

The take I have on what resources that people would of had back in 1980's to what we have today, is different, i think speed is what we have to day verses 1980. Meaning we have technology that gives us information quicker. For these puzzles all you would of needed is.... A class room (what we learned in school) a Map of the area, A library, and a magnifying glass. The same as we have today . Internet (classroom) Map( google earth), Library (wiki and google) Magnifying glass (computer). Priess was a very smart man Graduated top of his class at Pennsylvania university and Masters at Stanford. So to him easy might not of been easy to common folk. I just think back in the 80's we had all the things we have today but just today is much quicker in our movement.

Wow, great breakdown, Goonie. I like to think (hope?) that part of the difficulty in these solves is that Preiss chose spots to represent the dig site that are not perceptible on Gogle Earth. Like is that fence and fencepost from chicago even perceptible?

Wow, great breakdown, Goonie. I like to think (hope?) that part of the difficulty in these solves is that Preiss chose spots to represent the dig site that are not perceptible on Gogle Earth. Like is that fence and fencepost from chicago even perceptible?

Okay, finally got my solve together after revisiting this Image again. I have this casque located no where near Golden Gate park. The casque is located in San Francisco Maritime National Historic Park by the Powell-Hyde Turnaround at Beach and Hyde. Some members have discussed elements of this possibility but not the spot for my dig or the details I've concluded. Verse 7 At stone wall's door - San Francisco Bay The air smells sweet - Ghiradelli Alcatraz seems like an obvious one here and Ghiradelli is too. I stayed in SF 11 years ago on a vacation right next door to the turnaround in the Argonaut Hotel and the first two things that hit you when you walk out are the view of Alcatraz and the incredible smell of chocolate. Not far away - Aquatic Park High posts are three - Balclutha (1886 ship) Aquatic Park is right at the corner of the Maritime Park and has many beautiful old ships docked at the Hyde Street Pier. The Balclutha can be seen from all over this area. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Education and Justice - Galileo Academy and Alcatraz For all to see - Both are easy to view from a distance Sounds from the sky - This refers to the Foghorns in the bay Near ace is high - Alice Marble Tennis Courts at George Sterling Park The Cable Car route for Powell-Hyde runs right passed this park which is known for its great viewing area for the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz Island. The Alice marble Tennis Courts sit on top of this park. Running north, but first across -The Powell-Hyde Cable Car route runs to the North from Market St., across Jackson and then North to the Hyde & Beach Turnaround http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 In jewel's direction - Hyde Street Pier Is an object Of Twain's attention - Paddle Wheel as you enter Hyde Street Pier http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Giant pole - The Speaking Tower in the park to the West of the Cable Car Turnaround Giant step - Not the set of Steps on the beach but a "figurative" step toward the Cable CarTurnaround Take a Giant step to the East and that will put you at the outside of the Cable Car Turnaround To the place The casque is kept. - Dig Spot in the Landscaping just below (North side) of the Cable Car Turnaround. Image 8 ----------------- Let's start with the white balls in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front of Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city of SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 The wrought iron is what is represented by the rose vine in the image curling around the table. Window on the Stone window is Alcatraz. There are many faces and images in the rocks that have been discussed like Ronald Reagan , I'm sure everyone can see different thing here but they are not important to my solve. Let's talk about the table and the rose. It was pointed out by a few that the leg of the table resembles a cable car, and I agree. But what I see is actually a Cable Car on the Coit Tower. The top of the Table is what is known as the Tabletop in the Turnaround that the cable cars stop and spin around into the other direction on. And let me give credit to Kalessin from the post on page 70 noticing the winder on top of the clock is actually the bell on top of a cable car. As you look at the rose notice how the background of the rose is above the horizon line with the "Rock" behind it. This signifies something very cool in my opinion. The rose is called a Bardou Job Rose . It is grown on Alcatraz Island and this is just a way to show the importance of the Gardens of Alcatraz. https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/bardou-job As mentioned the curly vine of the rose doesn't make the Letter "J", it is representing the wrought iron designs used all over the area around the SF Maritime Park. The number 3 that has been mentioned in the vine in my opinion is actually the Letter "M" for Maritime. Now for the Lady Her fingers are pointing to the 4th sqaure on each sleeve. This represents the 44 hills of San Francisco. Her arms are crossed to show the crossing of the rails on the turnaround. There are a couple sets of tracks for the Cable Cars that cross over on the turnaround. The Sea Serpent is a conjunction of things. It is the platform on top of the turnaround. The squares are the bricks on the turnaround that the tracks are embedded into. The Sea Serpent also represents the Cable Car system itself by the way it snakes its way around the city of SF. Now, on the Serpent in Image 1 there is what appears to be a Strawberry. And while this may be a strawberry, I see it as a representation of the famous Wildberries that grow on Alcatraz Island. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Symbols on Her Cloak The Backward "G" and "h" are for us being behind the Ghiradelli Sign. But, she is on the "other side" of Ghiradelli like the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. Squares, Circles, Triangles at the top are Freemason symbols. Square representing N,S,E,W, also representing the Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. Circles represent the Sun. The Triangle is considered the most important because it represents the Diety. Latitude and Longitude are represented by the Roman numerals I-I-II and I-II-III . Most everyone knows that one. The Yin and Yang symbol is there to represent Fire and Water because from this area you can see the Historic San Francisco Fire Department Pumping Station #2. It was built after the great earthquake of 1906. https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/nat1976000177.asp The letter "A" on the left side is for Alcatraz. The upside down IV on the right side is the "6" on the Ghiradelli Clock Tower. The "X" is in the logo from the South End Rowing Club at the North end of the Maritime Park. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 The "A" on the right side is from the Argonaut Hotel next to the Turnaround. The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas, I'm stumped on these. Now lets look as her Hair. The part in her hair appears to be the entrance of the Cable Cars coming from Hyde St into the Turnaround. The two strands of hair are the tracks. And what I see with the jewel is this, her chin is the boundary of the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. The sidewalk going around the Turnaround is the top of her Cloak. This would mean the landscaping (her hair) area between the Turnaround and the Sidewalk is my Dig Spot. There you have it, my dig spot for San Francisco. MrBackstop

Okay, finally got my solve together after revisiting this Image again. I have this casque located no where near Golden Gate park. The casque is located in San Francisco Maritime National Historic Park by the Powell-Hyde Turnaround at Beach and Hyde. Some members have discussed elements of this possibility but not the spot for my dig or the details I 've concluded. Verse 7 At stone wall's door - San Francisco Bay The air smells sweet - Ghiradelli Alcatraz seems like an obvious one here and Ghiradelli is too. I stayed in SF 11 years ago on a vacation right next door to the turnaround in the Argonaut Hotel and the first two things that hit you when you walk out are the view of Alcatraz and the incredible smell of chocolate. Not far away - Aquatic Park High posts are three - Balclutha (1886 ship) Aquatic Park is right at the corner of the Maritime Park and has many beautiful old ships docked at the Hyde Street Pier. The Balclutha can be seen from all over this area. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Education and Justice - Galileo Academy and Alcatraz For all to see - Both are easy to view from a distance Sounds from the sky - This refers to the Foghorns in the bay Near ace is high - Alice Marble Tennis Courts at George Sterling Park The Cable Car route for Powell-Hyde runs right passed this park which is known for its great viewing area for the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz Island. The Alice marble Tennis Courts sit on top of this park. Running north, but first across -The Powell-Hyde Cable Car route runs to the North from Market St., across Jackson and then North to the Hyde & Beach Turnaround http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 In jewel's direction - Hyde Street Pier Is an object Of Twain's attention - Paddle Wheel as you enter Hyde Street Pier http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Giant pole - The Speaking Tower in the park to the West of the Cable Car Turnaround Giant step - Not the set of Steps on the beach but a "figurative" step toward the Cable CarTurnaround Take a Giant step to the East and that will put you at the outside of the Cable Car Turnaround To the place The casque is kept. - Dig Spot in the Landscaping just below (North side) of the Cable Car Turnaround. Image 8 ----------------- Let's start with the white balls in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front of Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city of SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 The wrought iron is what is represented by the rose vine in the image curling around the table. Window on the Stone window is Alcatraz. There are many faces and images in the rocks that have been discussed like Ronald Reagan , I 'm sure everyone can see different thing here but they are not important to my solve. Let's talk about the table and the rose. It was pointed out by a few that the leg of the table resembles a cable car, and I agree. But what I see is actually a Cable Car on the Coit Tower. The top of the Table is what is known as the Tabletop in the Turnaround that the cable cars stop and spin around into the other direction on. And let me give credit to Kalessin from the post on page 70 noticing the winder on top of the clock is actually the bell on top of a cable car. As you look at the rose notice how the background of the rose is above the horizon line with the "Rock" behind it. This signifies something very cool in my opinion. The rose is called a Bardou Job Rose . It is grown on Alcatraz Island and this is just a way to show the importance of the Gardens of Alcatraz. https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/bardou-job As mentioned the curly vine of the rose doesn't make the Letter "J", it is representing the wrought iron designs used all over the area around the SF Maritime Park. The number 3 that has been mentioned in the vine in my opinion is actually the Letter "M" for Maritime. Now for the Lady Her fingers are pointing to the 4th sqaure on each sleeve. This represents the 44 hills of San Francisco. Her arms are crossed to show the crossing of the rails on the turnaround. There are a couple sets of tracks for the Cable Cars that cross over on the turnaround. The Sea Serpent is a conjunction of things. It is the platform on top of the turnaround. The squares are the bricks on the turnaround that the tracks are embedded into. The Sea Serpent also represents the Cable Car system itself by the way it snakes its way around the city of SF. Now, on the Serpent in Image 1 there is what appears to be a Strawberry. And while this may be a strawberry, I see it as a representation of the famous Wildberries that grow on Alcatraz Island. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 Symbols on Her Cloak The Backward "G" and "h" are for us being behind the Ghiradelli Sign. But, she is on the "other side" of Ghiradelli like the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. Squares, Circles, Triangles at the top are Freemason symbols. Square representing N,S,E,W, also representing the Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. Circles represent the Sun. The Triangle is considered the most important because it represents the Diety. Latitude and Longitude are represented by the Roman numerals I - I -II and I -II-III . Most everyone knows that one. The Yin and Yang symbol is there to represent Fire and Water because from this area you can see the Historic San Francisco Fire Department Pumping Station #2. It was built after the great earthquake of 1906. https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/nat1976000177.asp The letter "A" on the left side is for Alcatraz. The upside down IV on the right side is the "6" on the Ghiradelli Clock Tower. The "X" is in the logo from the South End Rowing Club at the North end of the Maritime Park. http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0 The "A" on the right side is from the Argonaut Hotel next to the Turnaround. The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas, I 'm stumped on these. Now lets look as her Hair. The part in her hair appears to be the entrance of the Cable Cars coming from Hyde St into the Turnaround. The two strands of hair are the tracks. And what I see with the jewel is this, her chin is the boundary of the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. The sidewalk going around the Turnaround is the top of her Cloak. This would mean the landscaping (her hair) area between the Turnaround and the Sidewalk is my Dig Spot. There you have it, my dig spot for San Francisco. MrBackstop

Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886 )

Unknown: Just one note Only one?

I spent some time at the SFPL's local history collections this afternoon and just posted a bunch of snaps of Preiss-era brochures, etc. to the Albums area of the San Francisco facebook group, including that ca. 1981 map of Golden Gate Park. Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/

I spent some time at the SFPL's local history collections this afternoon and just posted a bunch of snaps of Preiss-era brochures, etc. to the Albums area of the San Francisco facebook group, including that ca. 1981 map of Golden Gate Park. Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/

treetops wrote:: Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886 ) Why? The Barclutha used to be docked at Pier 41 right down the street. These posts can be seen from all over the SF area. Why would that change anything? The Verse states : Not far away High posts are three What am I missing?

treetops wrote:: Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886 ) Why? The Barclutha used to be docked at Pier 41 right down the street. These posts can be seen from all over the SF area. Why would that change anything? The Verse states : Not far away High posts are three What am I missing?

But you are right treetops, I did mention the Aquatic Park because that's where I saw it a few years back. I should have clarified that it used to be at Pier 41.

But you are right treetops, I did mention the Aquatic Park because that's where I saw it a few years back. I should have clarified that it used to be at Pier 41.

treetops wrote:: Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/ I hope someone feels free to curate a few of these and repost to an open image-hosting site. I am not a member of Facebook, and the group is asking for a login.

treetops wrote:: Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/ I hope someone feels free to curate a few of these and repost to an open image-hosting site. I am not a member of Facebook, and the group is asking for a login.

Unknown: The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas, I'm stumped on these. The 3 ball symbol could have something to do with lombard, it appears. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnbroker

Let me correct myself here, I was showing my solve for image 1 not Image 8 ----------------- Let's start with the white balls in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front of Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city of SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well.

jermajerm wrote:: The 3 ball symbol could have something to do with lombard, it appears. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnbroker Interesting thought there, could be. I searched as best I could and nothing stood out. The only other symbol I thought I might have solved is the one at the bottom with the two half-circles. It's not totally clear in the Image 1 artwork I'm looking at but could represent the turntable.

Alright, you all probably remember gman and I have been working on a solve that uses pretty much every image (except lincoln/reagan) and gets us to a dig site with several close matches (in our opinion). viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=1230 Our issues were A. We had no idea how to step in relation to the giant pole, and B. We found it weird that the pole wouldn't be represented at all in the image. Well, I sent some boots on the ground to take pictures of the highly unusual molding around the base of the flagpost: Well, hey, is that our rose stem spiral? We don't even need to rotate it: The base rises up to this design. Not sure what to do with that eagle, maybe some sharp-eyed people can spot it in the image. Speaking of which, look at the eagle molding from the side: Okay so we've found some images that might be a match for the flagpole, although they aren't super exact. That still leaves the question of where to dig... Check out the flagpole base from this angle: It's an X. A cross... Running north, but first across It's that misfit piece of verse we thought was either a redundant reference to Highway 1 or a Prayerbook cross point-out. But it's not, it's the final step. Stand at the cross at the base of the flagpole, take a step North (straight toward Fulton street), and dig. Note that the giant step is needed to get you off of the cement base. Alternately, Gman theorizes the molding around the eagle is in the clock's shadow, and the shadow posts East. So take a step East (towards Spreckels lake, which has two objects of Twain's attention) and dig. Also above the eagle is this weird thing: I'm hoping someone can spot a more exact match in the image for some of this stuff. There's a lot for Preiss to have worked with.

I believe a rubbing of that painted-over circle above the eagle would allow us to make out the words.

No, I did not get to see this info yet. I was working on the Boston Image and have not looked back on all the info you guys put up. That is awesome work you guys did. Very cool to see so many possibilities and how they line up with Verse. I look forward to someone hopefully poking around and digging this thing up. Incredible solve work.

treetops wrote:: I believe a rubbing of that painted-over circle above the eagle would allow us to make out the words. Or maybe a straight on photo.

gManTexas wrote:: Or maybe a straight on photo. My friend who took the picture says its 8-12 feet in the air. Although, she's tiny, so maybe a better perspective is all we need. Currently asking my 6ft+ friends in the area to check it out

Tell them to bring a selfie stick

Ah, I did forget about that. I like that they are both turning their heads to the side. I don't like that nothing else really seems to match Is this even an eagle in the photo? I'm not a bird guy

I mean, it works for me. Brings into question the other seemingly-random circles which also seem like they could be printing errors: Red circle below the X on her smock, and the circle on the rock outcropping on the far left right about the height of the top of her head

Goldengate wrote:: There are definitely circles, mostly reddish that are printing errors, this one, being the eye, I do not believe is one. Also it's worth freeze framing Expedition Unknown where you can see a wide shot of this illustration on an easel. While some details are hard to make out, I can see an eye in the original on TV. There's also another similar eye like circle on the face many believe to be JFK/Reagan/Fred Flintstone... but if you just turn the page to the other side, you can see an entirely different face. (IMO, it looks like a mustachioed samurai mask that is in the permanent collection of the Asian Art museum (housed in the de young in 82) and may also be represented somewhere in the tea garden). This is probably super- tunneling, and humorous, but I can see the face as just being an angled view of the flagpole base

Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says: COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE PATENTED L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS SAN FRANCISCO CAL [some numbers that include 78] It's on the south side of the pole

treetops wrote:: Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says: COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE PATENTED L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS SAN FRANCISCO CAL [some numbers that include 78] It's on the south side of the pole Thanks treetops. Bolander & Sons is based in SF. Looks like the plate is stamped 78. Does this mean the original pole was replaced in 1978? The photo from the 40's shows what looks like a round pole. A later photo, shows the pole we see today. Maybe the age of the photo was mis-categorized? What is interesting in that photo I am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out front by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around.

treetops wrote:: Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says: COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE PATENTED L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS SAN FRANCISCO CAL [some numbers that include 78] It's on the south side of the pole Wow, well done

gManTexas wrote:: What is interesting in that photo I am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out from by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around. The timeline I gathered from my trip to the library is that the building was actually used in some capacity for senior activities and classes since 1965 (thus stated on 1981 park map), but wasn't officially dedicated as the Senior Center until 1980 (dedication program)

gManTexas wrote:: What is interesting in that photo I am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out from by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around. The timeline I gathered from my trip to the library is that the building was actually used in some capacity for senior activities and classes since 1965 (thus stated on 1981 park map), but wasn't officially dedicated as the Senior Center until 1980 (dedication program)

Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time. The next step is obviously for someone to get in the ground. I would imagine a permit is required at the senior center. My thought is looking at where the girl is pointing at her sleeves, one finger is at 6 squares and the other is at 8 squares. I 'm think between 6-8 feet to the East, as indicated by the 'A' shaped shadow next to the clock, which is toward Spreckels Lake. 6-8 feet would be a Giant step IMHO. Also, if t matters, the eagle on the south side of the pole is looking east.

Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time. The next step is obviously for someone to get in the ground. I would imagine a permit is required at the senior center. My thought is looking at where the girl is pointing at her sleeves, one finger is at 6 squares and the other is at 8 squares. I'm think between 6-8 feet to the East, as indicated by the 'A' shaped shadow next to the clock, which is toward Spreckels Lake. 6-8 feet would be a Giant step IMHO. Also, if t matters, the eagle on the south side of the pole is looking east.

gManTexas wrote:: Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time. I 'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig. Here's all that I currently believe: -image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123) -pearl, rose, June -the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle) -Gh = Great Highway -the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon -the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping) -the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city) -verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities) -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center -the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole" Specific concerns: -whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route -in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig -is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?

gManTexas wrote:: Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time. I'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig. Here's all that I currently believe: -image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123) -pearl, rose, June -the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle) -Gh = Great Highway -the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon -the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping) -the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city) -verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities) -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center -the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole" Specific concerns: -whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route -in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig -is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?

treetops wrote:: only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful.

treetops wrote:: only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful.

treetops wrote:: I'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig. Here's all that I currently believe: -image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123) -pearl, rose, June -the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle) -Gh = Great Highway -the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon -the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping) -the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city) -verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities) -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center -the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole" Specific concerns: -whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route -in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig -is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco? I like the idea of doubting this, or any other potential solve. Although, a well reasoned theory deserves a dig. If someone could dig there and comes up empty, then we rule it out and sharpen the pencils.

treetops wrote:: I 'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig. Here's all that I currently believe: -image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123) -pearl, rose, June -the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle) -Gh = Great Highway -the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon -the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping) -the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city) -verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities) -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center -the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole" Specific concerns: -whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route -in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig -is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco? I like the idea of doubting this, or any other potential solve. Although, a well reasoned theory deserves a dig. If someone could dig there and comes up empty, then we rule it out and sharpen the pencils.

Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches: http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22

Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches: http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22

treetops wrote:: Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches: http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22 Awesome thanks! I can't wait to go through them!!

treetops wrote:: Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches: http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22 Awesome thanks! I can't wait to go through them!!

maltedfalcon wrote:: only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful. I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center.

maltedfalcon wrote:: only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful. I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center.

drunknerds wrote:: I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center. Well it was like 10 years ago, but fulton ave was my object (steamboats... ( i know, lame...) but thats where I was I probed 360 and metal detected all around.

drunknerds wrote:: I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center. Well it was like 10 years ago, but fulton ave was my object (steamboats... (i know, lame...) but thats where I was I probed 360 and metal detected all around.

I was asked where did I dig around a totem pole, This is goddess of the forest, she stood in lindley meadow until 1988 (her base is still there.) My theory started at Mccaren lodge - stone walls door there is a gated archway near there. I passed the conservatory of flowers - the air smelled sweet Education and justice and high points - all pretty standard. (note the route I am taking was totally on JFK blvd) Sounds from the sky we go under highway 1 Aces High - Highway 1 running north over us, but first A Cross (we pass prayerbook cross) Giant Pole - Giant step ( the cement base the totem pole was on) Since I did not have a object for twain, I dug around it 360 degrees and out 4 feet, that was a lot of dirt ( actually took 4 separate trips of digging.)

I was asked where did I dig around a totem pole, This is goddess of the forest, she stood in lindley meadow until 1988 (her base is still there.) My theory started at Mccaren lodge - stone walls door there is a gated archway near there. I passed the conservatory of flowers - the air smelled sweet Education and justice and high points - all pretty standard. (note the route I am taking was totally on JFK blvd) Sounds from the sky we go under highway 1 Aces High - Highway 1 running north over us, but first A Cross (we pass prayerbook cross) Giant Pole - Giant step ( the cement base the totem pole was on) Since I did not have a object for twain, I dug around it 360 degrees and out 4 feet, that was a lot of dirt ( actually took 4 separate trips of digging.)

Lord Almighty.

I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole.

I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole.

gManTexas wrote:: I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole. it still could be, I was never able to A: figure out a good object of twains attention B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front what if the direction was different... Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....

gManTexas wrote:: I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole. it still could be, I was never able to A: figure out a good object of twains attention B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front what if the direction was different... Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....

maltedfalcon wrote:: it still could be, I was never able to A: figure out a good object of twains attention B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front what if the direction was different... Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is.... I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.

maltedfalcon wrote:: it still could be, I was never able to A: figure out a good object of twains attention B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front what if the direction was different... Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is.... I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.

gManTexas wrote:: I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions. This is why I'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to "Seek the columns for the search" and "L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder" If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.

gManTexas wrote:: I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions. This is why I 'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to "Seek the columns for the search" and "L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder" If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.

You mean these holes? https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39494690445/in/dateposted-public/

treetops wrote:: This is why I 'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to "Seek the columns for the search" and "L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder" If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig. are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write... an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs: That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog. For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer. Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.” came from here https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown. maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs... i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts. just sharing

treetops wrote:: This is why I'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to "Seek the columns for the search" and "L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder" If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig. are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write... an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs: That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog. For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer. Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.” came from here https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown. maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts. just sharing

I went through all the words I could think of at one point that could work with giant step. Skip, leap, hop, jump, bounce, terrace, tier. I dunno.

I went through all the words I could think of at one point that could work with giant step. Skip, leap, hop, jump, bounce, terrace, tier. I dunno.

(yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well) I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.

(yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well) I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.

Goonie68 wrote:: You mean these holes? https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39494690445/in/dateposted-public/ interestingly enough, those are not my holes, my holes healed over quite a few years back and had been replanted with grass seed by the friendly helpful groundskeepers.

strike13 wrote:: are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write... an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs: That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog. For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer. Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.” came from here https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown. maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs... i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts. just sharing Have at it http://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ma ... frogs.html I don't think anyone will ever nail down the Twain's attention, except by reverse engineering a successful dig. Pick any square mile in the U.S. and there's almost certainly something that Twain wrote or thought or lived that has to do with it. So far, it just seems to be arbitrary support for whatever theory is constructed. Like nobody's said, " I was following what I thought was the sure path, but then I decided it was wrong because there was no object of Twain's attention somewhere."

strike13 wrote:: are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write... an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs: That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog. For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer. Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.” came from here https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown. maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts. just sharing Have at it http://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ma ... frogs.html I don't think anyone will ever nail down the Twain's attention, except by reverse engineering a successful dig. Pick any square mile in the U.S. and there's almost certainly something that Twain wrote or thought or lived that has to do with it. So far, it just seems to be arbitrary support for whatever theory is constructed. Like nobody's said, "I was following what I thought was the sure path, but then I decided it was wrong because there was no object of Twain's attention somewhere."

JoshCornell1 wrote:: i def got it. you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: i def got it. you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours.

maltedfalcon wrote:: you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours. Some chance. Josh's main purpose for being on this board is to piss people off as thoroughly as possible, and that's one thing he's very good at.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: i def got it. Yup, just like you got Houston, New Orleans, and St Augustine. Oh wait, you didn't.

JoshCornell1 wrote:: i def got it. Yup, just like you got Houston, New Orleans, and St Augustine. Oh wait, you didn't.

treetops wrote:: -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center I hope ~1,000 feet is correct, f only because it gives us more room to find exact matches. Problem is, it's all trees. Spreckles lake is near, and the Bison Paddock/Dog training place are kinda near, but I 'm pretty sure they are more than 1,000 feet away. Might be fun to poke around back of the senior center for art/ There are some signs tacked to trees that don't look interesting, but who knows.

treetops wrote:: -if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center I hope ~1,000 feet is correct, f only because it gives us more room to find exact matches. Problem is, it's all trees. Spreckles lake is near, and the Bison Paddock/Dog training place are kinda near, but I'm pretty sure they are more than 1,000 feet away. Might be fun to poke around back of the senior center for art/ There are some signs tacked to trees that don't look interesting, but who knows.

Yep, almost all of the park's sculptures and monuments are packed into its east end. The area to the west is dedicated to recreational activities, lakes and open spaces until you get to the windmills. Most of those recreational areas have, or had, associated clubhouses that might be of interest. I recently looked around inside the model yacht clubhouse at Spreckels Lake. There were some beautiful model boats and historical photos/info about the club, but nothing that jumped out as revelatory. The fly casting pool and clubhouse are tempting for some kind of riff on "giant pole", but nothing's gelling for me there either. Nearby pentanque are golf areas are likewise tempting for connections with the moons in the sky of image 1. From what I've read, the area behind the senior center used to hold some sort of senior fitness course, presumably similar to the Par Courses in many city parks. It's currently a parking lot with off-path areas and picnic benches nearby. The region of the Richmond District north of the park isn't terribly promising either: lots of square residential blocks, a few churches and schools. I believe the areas that show up as tiny parks on a map are actually school playgrounds or public basketball or tennis courts.

Yep, almost all of the park's sculptures and monuments are packed into its east end. The area to the west is dedicated to recreational activities, lakes and open spaces until you get to the windmills. Most of those recreational areas have, or had, associated clubhouses that might be of interest. I recently looked around inside the model yacht clubhouse at Spreckels Lake. There were some beautiful model boats and historical photos/info about the club, but nothing that jumped out as revelatory. The fly casting pool and clubhouse are tempting for some kind of riff on "giant pole", but nothing's gelling for me there either. Nearby pentanque are golf areas are likewise tempting for connections with the moons in the sky of image 1. From what I 've read, the area behind the senior center used to hold some sort of senior fitness course, presumably similar to the Par Courses in many city parks. It's currently a parking lot with off-path areas and picnic benches nearby. The region of the Richmond District north of the park isn't terribly promising either: lots of square residential blocks, a few churches and schools. I believe the areas that show up as tiny parks on a map are actually school playgrounds or public basketball or tennis courts.

When I was at the senior center, I did check all around the building. back, side, I didn't find anything that would of lead me in any direction. There is a small parking with a lamp post on the edge of the lot, but the rest is landscaped with hedge's and grass. The building it's self does not have any markings in the rear. There are no visual markers that lead you anywhere from the back.

When I was at the senior center, I did check all around the building. back, side, I didn't find anything that would of lead me in any direction. There is a small parking with a lamp post on the edge of the lot, but the rest is landscaped with hedge's and grass. The building it's self does not have any markings in the rear. There are no visual markers that lead you anywhere from the back.

Unknown: When I was at the senior center, Isn't the Senior Center a building? Might be instructive to look at the other buildings in the puzzle, and see how they fit into the solve, or proposed solve. Here's a hint: None of them are within 1,000 yards of the proposed dig spots, and most are miles away.

Unknown: When I was at the senior center, Isn't the Senior Center a building? Might be instructive to look at the other buildings in the puzzle, and see how they fit into the solve, or proposed solve. Here's a hint: None of them are within 1,000 yards of the proposed dig spots, and most are miles away.

catherwood wrote:: (yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well) I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example. In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you.

catherwood wrote:: (yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well) I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example. In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you.

Goonie68 wrote:: In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you. I'd entertain that notion. PM it me.

Goonie68 wrote:: In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you. I 'd entertain that notion. PM it me.

Not sure how much of a connection to the Actual teams......but if you look at the bottom 3 loops on the dragons tail. The light blue shape in the loops resemble a diamond, the Big Rec ball field there are 2 baseball diamond's that line up with the tail. The first loop is larger then the second loop which lines up with the way both fields are shaped. Now here the interesting thing is that the 3rd loop at the end of the tail has a small round shape in the middle....pearl??? Maybe in "jewels direction" ?? I guess it's one more rabbit hole??? GRRR!

Not sure how much of a connection to the Actual teams......but if you look at the bottom 3 loops on the dragons tail. The light blue shape in the loops resemble a diamond, the Big Rec ball field there are 2 baseball diamond's that line up with the tail. The first loop is larger then the second loop which lines up with the way both fields are shaped. Now here the interesting thing is that the 3rd loop at the end of the tail has a small round shape in the middle....pearl??? Maybe in "jewels direction" ?? I guess it's one more rabbit hole??? GRRR!

I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.

I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.

Unknown: I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base. And I think that's exactly what Preiss wanted you to think. Initially.

Unknown: I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base. And I think that's exactly what Preiss wanted you to think. Initially.

Goldengate wrote:: I noticed something new on this image: There are two very similar (almost exact) side-by-side images on both the Boston illustration and the San Francisco illustration. Do I know the significance? No. But it is interesting that both sets of paired images are on the woman's robes. Links to each below. Go to town, hive mind! San Francisco: https://imgur.com/a/ZLueo Boston: https://imgur.com/a/lUIWF I've thought about that. My knee jerk reaction is street signs or mapping/surveying markers. Or maybe they are BP hieroglyphics. Anyone have the Preissetta Stone?

Goldengate wrote:: I noticed something new on this image: There are two very similar (almost exact) side-by-side images on both the Boston illustration and the San Francisco illustration. Do I know the significance? No. But it is interesting that both sets of paired images are on the woman's robes. Links to each below. Go to town, hive mind! San Francisco: https://imgur.com/a/ZLueo Boston: https://imgur.com/a/lUIWF I 've thought about that. My knee jerk reaction is street signs or mapping/surveying markers. Or maybe they are BP hieroglyphics. Anyone have the Preissetta Stone?

Could be symbol for Masonic ? Symbol triangle with an eye in the middle??

gManTexas wrote:: Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I 've read all day

gManTexas wrote:: Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I've read all day

strike13 wrote:: Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I 've read all day LMAO!

strike13 wrote:: Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I've read all day LMAO!

Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??

Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??

Goonie68 wrote:: Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier?? I have always favored White Rabbit’s solution (Lafayette Park in SF). The base of the table in the image was identified as a Victorian drinking fountain near the casque site. The resemblance is strikingly similar.

Goonie68 wrote:: Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier?? I have always favored White Rabbit’s solution (Lafayette Park in SF). The base of the table in the image was identified as a Victorian drinking fountain near the casque site. The resemblance is strikingly similar.

Here is the likeness in question: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.

Here is the likeness in question: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.

treetops wrote:: Here is the likeness in question: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here. I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.

treetops wrote:: Here is the likeness in question: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here. I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.

gManTexas wrote:: I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP. I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I 'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one of the companies to make these, then and now.

gManTexas wrote:: I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP. I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one of the companies to make these, then and now.

gManTexas wrote:: I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP. I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one of the companies to make these, then and now.

treetops wrote:: I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Good thinking!

treetops wrote:: I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Good thinking!

treetops wrote:: I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I 'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Good thinking!

Here we go: https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22 Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains. And just to burn it into your brain: https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg

treetops wrote:: Here we go: https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22 Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains. And just to burn it into your brain: https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg Not bad. I like drunknerd's match to the senior center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.

treetops wrote:: Here we go: https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22 Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains. And just to burn it into your brain: https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg Not bad. I like drunknerd's match to the senior center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.

treetops wrote:: Here we go: https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22 Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains. And just to burn it into your brain: https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg Not bad. I like drunknerd's match to the senior center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.

I like the drinking fountain match to the bronze ring. That's great. I do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking fountain has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base of the pole, none of these taperings correspond to those of the image, save maybe that big section near the top. I 've been trying for half an hour to draw some point of comparison between the two and I can't even find a starting point. That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another fountain there before that bore a more striking resemblance.

I like the drinking fountain match to the bronze ring. That's great. I do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking fountain has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base of the pole, none of these taperings correspond to those of the image, save maybe that big section near the top. I've been trying for half an hour to draw some point of comparison between the two and I can't even find a starting point. That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another fountain there before that bore a more striking resemblance.

I like the drinking fountain match to the bronze ring. That's great. I do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking fountain has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base of the pole, none of these taperings correspond to those of the image, save maybe that big section near the top. I've been trying for half an hour to draw some point of comparison between the two and I can't even find a starting point. That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another fountain there before that bore a more striking resemblance.

Generally agreed on the specific Murdock fountain not being quite as perfect a match as I'd like.

Generally agreed on the specific Murdock fountain not being quite as perfect a match as I'd like.

Generally agreed on the specific Murdock fountain not being quite as perfect a match as I 'd like.

So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base??

So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base??

I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator

I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator

I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator

Goonie68 wrote:: So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base?? I 'm of the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and fountain/pole/building/etc.

Goonie68 wrote:: So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base?? I'm of the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and fountain/pole/building/etc.

Goonie68 wrote:: So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base?? I'm of the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and fountain /pole/building/etc.

The existence of this type of fountain in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.

The existence of this type of fountain in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.

The existence of this type of fountain in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.

Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks?

Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks?

Closest things I 've seen in GGP are the stones of both the Sharon Arts Studio building and the McLaren Lodge. Similar irregular sizes, though I haven't gone around either hunting for groupings that are exact matches. http://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/McLaren_Lodge-586x286.jpg https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uaixrjSr_xs/fit=1000x750/sharon-art-studio-2.jpg

Goonie68 wrote:: Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks? Yes, or city blocks is my bet. I just haven't had the patience to try and match them up.

Goonie68 wrote:: Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks? Yes, or city blocks is my bet. I just haven't had the patience to try and match them up.

Closest things I've seen in GGP are the stones of both the Sharon Arts Studio building and the McLaren Lodge. Similar irregular sizes, though I haven't gone around either hunting for groupings that are exact matches. http://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/McLaren_Lodge-586x286.jpg https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uaixrjSr_xs/fit=1000x750/sharon-art-studio-2.jpg

What if I told you I know of a picture of golden gate park with a cable car in it!

What if I told you I know of a picture of golden gate park with a cable car in it!

treetops wrote:: I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”

Bring it on! Those "cable car" party buses don't count!

treetops wrote:: I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”

treetops wrote:: I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”

LL NO party bus here!!! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.google.com/url?sa= i &rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769 Brought!

LL NO party bus here!!! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769 Brought!

Check out the BIG WHEEL in the picture!!! Must date it to about 1970's to 1980's!

Goonie68 wrote:: :rofl LL NO party bus here!!! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.google.com/url?sa= i &rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769 Brought! Boy, I love those old death trap playgrounds! Man, that was when you could really have a good time.

Goonie68 wrote:: :rofl LL NO party bus here!!! https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769 Brought! Boy, I love those old death trap playgrounds! Man, that was when you could really have a good time.

Oh, I forgot to mention, the quick litmus test that eliminates 90% of potential pole matches, at least for me, is "does it have a rectangle?" The image clearly has a large rectangular section. Now, obviously, in 3 dimensions it might be rounded, but it's still a cylinder- so it has a cross section and profile of a rectangle. I just can't see BP or JJP looking at a picture of a post that rounds out and thinking "I'll paint that as a completely different shape." That's not a puzzle, that's just drawing something wrong.

Goldengate wrote:: No kidding... there used to be a decommissioned jet you could crawl all over in Larson Park in the Sunset District... literally tunnel all the way through it from the air intake below the cockpit to the tail. The thing was a tetanus factory -- last I heard they removed it and are trying to get it restored for a museum! Haha I used to love that! "NO MORE WAR TOYS"

DUDE that jet was the boom!!!! Had swim lessons down the street at the swim center!!!

YEP!!! I would of been 70's

Goonie68 wrote:: YEP!!! I would of been 70's Oh, I had swim lessons there in 1981 when I was 3. Awesome!

Ok back to the hunt! After looking at my research again and again, lol I have to agree with Gman on then end of my theory "is a little loose" I started to take a look at the verse of " in jewel's direction" which I find that many people skip, seems like what all I have read is that people just jump to Twains object or attention. Going over the book it's kind of hard to ignore the page with Team Spirit, which is a picture of Monte Irvin in a Giants uniform and other players in the back ground with NY (Giants) uniforms. The baseball connection is just to good to pass up, because of the Giants connection to SF. So looking at the verse and then at the illustration, I believe that in jewel's direction is the Big Rec Ball field. I know this theory has been brought up before and there has been digs in this area, but I don't believe that the clues stop there. There are 2 baseball diamond's, which if you look at the two loops at the end of the tail, they are almost 100% match with the infield pitching mounds. The loops have a light blue tear drop shape that match's these fields. One diamond is larger then the other and this shows up in the illustration with the first loop larger then the second loop. I have to believe that jewel's is referring to diamond's...plain and simple. If you look at a map of the field you will see the tear drop pitchers mound. I was in the park on Sunday to verify that from ground level you could make out the tear drop shape and it was 100% match. I believe the clue in the book points to this part of the park and it is verified by verse and illustration with help from the book. Now here is what else I found going in that direction. The object of twain's is baseball, he was a huge baseball fan and was involved with a pro team back in the 1800"s ,this among the other clues tells you that you are going in the right direction. If you look at the three loops at the end of the dragon's tail there is a smaller loop at the end, that is closed by the small line at the very end of the tail. This is a complete circle with a smaller circle in the middle. I believe this to be the Carousel in the children's playground. Twain's attention would be children, since he wrote very famous novels about children's books make good senses that this would be the clue. Bringing you to this part of the park, which if you look at the illustration, the top of the dragon's head (senior center) move down to crossover drive, (arms) then to strawberry hill (strawberry in the middle) then to the 6 like shape (music note) below the strawberry ( music concourse) to the baseball diamonds ( big rec ball field) two loops at the bottom of the tail, to the third loop ( Carousel) puts you at the children's playground and with the cable car identifier from the picture I posted earlier. This route brings you through almost the whole park from west to east passing all the major landmarks that Priess wanted us to see. Looking at the two solves in Chicago and Cleveland, both has a man made structure to identify the casques location. In the SF puzzle there is not much to go on, I look at the pattern in the dragon and it appears that they are stone or bricks and that this is going to be the identifier when you reach the casque location. I found two indicators of this around the children's playground. So Giant Pole could be the Carousel, the middle of the carouse is connected to a very large pole that turns the base of the carousel, and directly behind the carousel is a building with a stone pattern and on the side of it has a large concrete barrier that you would have to take a large step up and over too. Once you have stepped up on this concert barrier it leads you to a stair case made out of stone. ( I will post pictures later tonight of my finds) The other location is what would of been right behind the cable car or behind the slide with the wood steps,(in the picture) is a stair case made out of stone. This stair case has 2 levels and curves like the dragons tail. The stair case has a rail that is attached from top to bottom. The stones in the stair case are a good match to the blocks that make up the dragons body. I think we need to be looking for some sort of stone for indicator of the location of the casque. I think the Giant pole ( flag pole) is not correct. Digging up at the base of flag poles would not be a good idea and I don't think Priess would want people destroying areas around a flag pole since they are very special place. Thoughts?? I will post pictures later tonight of the stone areas.

Interesting, Giant step meaning the baseball fields seems good. The theory tunnels just a bit in the middle for me. For instance, I can't imagine Preiss or anyone looking at a children's park and thinking, "I'll reference an author not directly associated with this park, AND I'll choose Mark Twain over the thousands of authors more associated with children." Anyone can look anywhere, find an object they think fits the solve, then link Mark Twain to that object. I'd like to see a picture of these stones that resemble the dragon scales, as well as the trolley car. I like that you take pictures on the ground and share them, thanks. Also, if you're taking a giant step away from the flagpole base, you can't be "digging up at the base," so I found that argument fundamentally flawed. Also, while digging at the base of most flagpoles would seem a bit sacrilege, it's quite reasonable that it could have been a flagpole without a flag outside a building that was being transitioned at the time, and thus vacant. I don't think digging a few feet away from there would be weird. However, even though you didn't mention this, I personally would be afraid to dig too near a flagpole base because I'd be afraid it would fall over on me. So there's a point there.

Well Twain did have an infatuation with children, there are so many Twain references to everything in the city it's hard to say yes or no, but the loops in the tail show us something and the third loops also is telling us something and leads to that part of the park. Maybe there was play structures that had a boat or a frog or something that is not there anymore. Well even with no actual flag on a pole I still think he wouldn't of wanted people to be digging up near a base (or giant step) of these types of poles. I mean if you look at where these are in the park they are well manicured places and digging around it would not be a good thing, for the park or a pole that once held a flag? Just my opinion. Also with the cable car picture reinforces that area.

Thanks Dnerds I try and bring light to information I find or share so that we can peal back the layers to this onion!

this is the chinatown - portsmouth square streetlights. posted here for davinci4

Unknown: I personally would be afraid to dig too near a flagpole base because I'd be afraid it would fall over on me. I can not imagine. I will say, however, that if your hole is big enough and deep enough to destabilize a flagpole, then more than likely you are digging in the wrong spot. Just to be clear, I have never been a fan of the Senior Center flagpole as a dig spot (it is not a new theory), but there is one very compelling reason to consider that it may be the starting point for the search.

Goonies, great wall of text. Erpobdelliforme, are you keeping track of peoples theories? which one do you favor? There's so many...Coit Tower, Strawberry Hill, Russian Hill, Legion, Goldengate Park... I'm kind of interested in whether the USS San Francisco monument ties in. It was docked at Pearl Harbor, so I like that little pearl connection. I don't think the senior center is at all part of this puzzle.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I can not imagine. I will say, however, that if your hole is big enough and deep enough to destabilize a flagpole, then more than likely you are digging in the wrong spot. Just to be clear, I have never been a fan of the Senior Center flagpole as a dig spot (it is not a new theory), but there is one very compelling reason to consider that it may be the starting point for the search. I have always believed that the senior center is the starting point.

GG, I believe that both NY and SF represent both baseball diamonds in GGP, if you will. I mean why take the trouble of putting in a page that contains ball players with NY and SF jerseys? Plus if we are looking in the park, we have baseball fields which connects the book to the location. Not sure if this makes senses but to me it's connects lol. I haven't heard a better connection for jewel's direction and baseball diamonds, jewel's go hand in hand I think, but I could be way out of the ball park here LOL!! As far as the cable car, It's hard for me to remember A cable car because my father worked for Gallo Salami off of Bryant st and the main logo is a cable car and we used to go to many events that had a cable car in it! I did find a link that has people talking about the cable car in the playground in the 70's I will try and find it. I am going to message the parks super that I meet and see if he knows when the cable car was taken out of the park. Maybe he knows somebody that can recall that information?

Unknown: Erpobdelliforme, are you keeping track of peoples theories? Not consciously E. It's just a byproduct of following the forum for all these years, reading all the posts, keeping an open mind, and having a pretty decent memory. Here's hoping that one day, one of us will find the right combination of things, and crack this puzzle. Not for nothing, but I think the dragon at the SC is one of those things.

The ball fields are also home to the vintage baseball league and the diamonds are off of 7th and Ivring....Monte Irving ?? book, coincidence ? I think not lol

Forgive me guys, where are getting Monte Irving from?

In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it

Goonie68 wrote:: In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it page 904 of the ebook

As far as the rest of the book Yes there is a SF giant player (there are also NY Giants players...) There is a fairy called the Corporate Giant in the book (NY and NJ) There is a fairy I think called the Tinkerbelle photographed in a SF chinatown phonebooth... There is a picture of a train numbered 982 that is the train # in houston. There is a Section that refers to fairys in Chicago and shows cubs hats... That being said NOTHING in the rest of the book has been shown to be a clue for Chicago or Cleveland. Byron specifically said the rest of the book has nothing to do with the hunt....

I assume Preiss had total control over the publication. Who's to say a few small hob-hints didn't sneak into the Lonely editing chamber while Shmug snoozed on a giant pile of pez candies.

Goonie68 wrote:: In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything! Someone PM me please.

gManTexas wrote:: I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything! Someone PM me please. Best bet is the secret Kindle edition amazon about $19 nice scans - the reprint (the one with the white border around the cover, or the hardback) are not worth the paper they are printed on images are dim and contain all kinds of scanner artifacts...

There is also a reference to Carl Marx ( Marx meadow in the park) in the book, but I find it very, very hard to believe that these are just coincidence and random placing in the book that can relate to the puzzle. Yes he said that it has no relation to the puzzle..... if there is no connection then why write the book? In my opinion he must of thrown in a few Easter eggs, he also said he thought the puzzle would be solved in 1 years time.....30 + years later....So not sure I would completely agree the notion that there are no hints in the book.

Karl sorry

maltedfalcon wrote:: Best bet is the secret Kindle edition amazon about $19 nice scans - the reprint (the one with the white border around the cover, or the hardback) are not worth the paper they are printed on images are dim and contain all kinds of scanner artifacts... Let me pose the question, the OCR version (I'm sure you are all familiar), how abridged is it? It seems to have the meat we need but not the potatoes where some other tidbits might be. I count 41 total pages in the OCR version.

Huckleberry house is right next to golden gate park and seems to have been around in 1980 https://www.huckleberryyouth.org/crisis-shelter/

I've found another match with the base of the flagpole:

gManTexas wrote:: I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything! "Team Spirits" are described on page 88 of the original book, with the accompanying photo of "Mr.Irvin" on page 89. Many of the black-and-white photos look like a bad Xerox copy of a color original, not a proper snapsnot made with B&W film. If someone made a reproduction of these, the quality must be horrible, if the so-called OCR edition even contains these images.

These pic are from the stair case behind the playground. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465898052/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698093370/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465970862/in/dateposted-public/ This is behind the Carousel. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26637487528/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465998972/in/dateposted-public/ This appears to be a stair case coming down from MLK. You step up on the concert ledge and this is what you see. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698241140/in/dateposted-public/

Cable Car picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ Link to stories about the cable car in the park. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3y_vvgcXZAhXQxqQKHYRCD-kQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.play-scapes.com%2Fplay-history%2Ftbt-cable-car-on-the-playground-san-francisco-c-1950%2F&usg=AOvVaw3LbKgVroHT27XRguMHsnKq Pic of iron stem and flower Art studio https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698337530/in/dateposted-public/

gManTexas wrote:: Let me pose the question, the OCR version (I'm sure you are all familiar), how abridged is it? It seems to have the meat we need but not the potatoes where some other tidbits might be. I count 41 total pages in the OCR version. 200+ pages in the actual book.

Goonie68 wrote:: These pic are from the stair case behind the playground. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465898052/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698093370/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465970862/in/dateposted-public/ This is behind the Carousel. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26637487528/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465998972/in/dateposted-public/ This appears to be a stair case coming down from MLK. You step up on the concert ledge and this is what you see. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698241140/in/dateposted-public/ Goonie! Is that the stone wall's door?!?

Well if this is a starting point, but I have this area at the end of my path.

Goonie68 wrote:: Well if this is a starting point, but I have this area at the end of my path. Does the door or window in Image 1 have to be stone wall's door? I mean, we just assumed that, right?

gManTexas wrote:: Does the door or window in Image 1 have to be stone wall's door? I mean, we just assumed that, right? No it does not- yes most people do, in the solved casques, the columns in the image are called out in the verse in cleveland, and this is a key to finding the site. In Chicago the fence and fixture are both called out and they indicate the final site. So logically if it is not referenced by stone walls door, then it is not within sight of the casque.

Everyone, get on street view and look at the entrance to the Sharon Art Center. Then look around at the streetlamp. Then look right next door at the flagpole at the bowling greens.

The picture I took of the Door was for the stone pattern on it. You can see there are two smaller stones by a lager one to the left of the door. If you look at the middle of the dragon (in the 6) there is a distinct pattern of blocks, I was thinking that the pattern might be a locator or indicator of a casque location. The ledge next to the door would be a giant step and across would be giant pole (carousel) . Just a theory tho.

I like the thought of the cable car, the stone pattern and of course the baseball diamonds that brought me to the play ground. The path way behind the door building was like...what do we have here!!!! a stone walk way?? Hidden!!! But who knows??? LOL

The flag pole is at the Park and Rec main grounds headquarters in the park, looks to new to be " the pole"

Goonie68 wrote:: The flag pole is at the Park and Rec main grounds headquarters in the park, looks to new to be " the pole" Was there an older pole at one time? Also, this area give you a clear view of Sutro Tower, doesn't it?

If we look at the image, the feature to the left of her head, and just above lincoln/jfk/Fred Flintstone looks like a hand holding a lawn bowling ball. If you zoom in, it is also a bunny. You'll spot the whiskers. Bunny Meadow is on that end of the park.

Goldengate wrote:: You DO NOT want to mess with the lawn bowling club... they will not hesitate to get blood on their whites if they catch you digging near their turf. Lol, duly noted!

Yes you get a good view of the tower for sure!

Goonie68 wrote:: The picture I took of the Door was for the stone pattern on it. You can see there are two smaller stones by a lager one to the left of the door. If you look at the middle of the dragon (in the 6) there is a distinct pattern of blocks, I was thinking that the pattern might be a locator or indicator of a casque location. The ledge next to the door would be a giant step and across would be giant pole (carousel) . Just a theory tho. Going back to when I first started looking at GGP, I was centered on the area near the playground. Before my head was filled with all sorts of possibilities, I basically walked through what I believed was a logical set of pointers from the Image and Verse. I've looked at it again and I have come to the same stumbling block. Giant pole, Giant step. I could argue that the police station next to Kezar Stadium is Justice and the California Academy of Sciences is Education. So, if we were standing somewhere in the vicinity of what is now Robin Williams Meadow, we are central to many of the clues, however, you cannot actually see all of these things. Now, it is up for debate on another thread whether all of the clues can be seen from the dig site, however, this is where this starts to fall apart near the playground. Where is the giant pole? What is the giant step? This is the albatross of this puzzle.

Goonie68 wrote:: Cable Car picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/ Link to stories about the cable car in the park. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3y_vvgcXZAhXQxqQKHYRCD-kQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.play-scapes.com%2Fplay-history%2Ftbt-cable-car-on-the-playground-san-francisco-c-1950%2F&usg=AOvVaw3LbKgVroHT27XRguMHsnKq Goonie, if you go to the article you linked, which by the way made my virus blocker pop up, look at the photo of the kids climbing on the front of the car. There is a shiny building in the back to the left. The two girls on top of the car appear to be gazing at a Giant pole. Can anyone identify this and was this photo of the same car in the GGP playground? http://www.play-scapes.com/wp-content/u ... e-car3.jpg In the meantime, I will try to see if I can orient myself to the same view if possible.

Gman, I believe the cable car was move several times in the park. Or the pic with the girls in it was a different location in the city. If you look at the fence in the back ground it appears to be a ball field with a large pole might by a light. The fence sits on a hill and the cable car is below the hill with a building in the back ground, which would suggest it's in a different location other than GGP. I think the couple of pictures in the link are showing different cable car's in the city, but the one with the slide is GGP.

Objects that are identified in the park as "Giant pole" Flag Pole, stair case railings, Lamp posts, sign posts and the only other large pole that is not very visible is the pole inside the carousel. Totem pole (which is no longer there) Or north Pole?? Not sure there is any other pole in the park?

At various points in the past, cable cars were also used as playground fixtures at the zoo (near an old locomotive) and, I believe, outside a child services center, which might be where the photo with the building in the background is from. Regarding the card shelter currently behind the conservatory of flowers, this was built in 1988, using the large chess pieces from a the Ghirardelli Card Shelter that used to be north of Alvord Lake, not far from the playground. I have searched for a photo of this old card shelter without success. It would have been in terrible shape in the early 80s, but I keep thinking, could it have had a decoration of one of the card suits ("Ace is high")? Finally, have you been through the tunnel beneath the Alvord bridge in your recent wanderings? I imagine you'll find some echoes in there of the background from image 1.

treetops wrote:: At various points in the past, cable cars were also used as playground fixtures at the zoo (near an old locomotive) and, I believe, outside a child services center, which might be where the photo with the building in the background is from. Regarding the card shelter currently behind the conservatory of flowers, this was built in 1988, using the large chess pieces from a the Ghirardelli Card Shelter that used to be north of Alvord Lake, not far from the playground. I have searched for a photo of this old card shelter without success. It would have been in terrible shape in the early 80s, but I keep thinking, could it have had a decoration of one of the card suits ("Ace is high")? Finally, have you been through the tunnel beneath the Alvord bridge in your recent wanderings? I imagine you'll find some echoes in there of the background from image 1. I have been to the Alvord bridge and on the lake side there is a lamp post just as you come out of the tunnel, but couldn't figure out from the pole giant step? The little pond does have rock formations in it but couldn't match any to image but maybe I didn't look at it more closely. Yes I do agree that the cable cars where used at the zoo and other play grounds, I spoke to the guy that runs the snack shake at the carousel and asked him if he know about the cable car that was possibly there and he said he knew of it being in the playground but could not give a time line to when it was removed.

I was thinking of the imitation natural rock formations inside the tunnel itself in connection with the background vista in image 1. I'm still really needing an alternate match for the dragon to tear myself away from the senior center, even though there's so little else to work with out there.

treetops wrote:: I was thinking of the imitation natural rock formations inside the tunnel itself in connection with the background vista in image 1. I'm still really needing an alternate match for the dragon to tear myself away from the senior center, even though there's so little else to work with out there. So your theory is that the senior center is the casque location?

I'm doubtful of the front lawn of the senior center being the actual burial spot, but the ironwork phoenixes are such a perfect match for the dragon, and such an obscure feature (compared to the bandshell, stow lake, prayerbook cross, museums, etc.), that for the casque to be more than 1000' from there would at least be a level of insanity beyond what we've seen in Cleveland and Chicago. It would be like the Chicago casque being over a mile from the fencepost.

Goldengate wrote:: IMAGE 1 OBSERVATIONS: Symbol theories: 2) The upside down VI = 6th Ave entrance off of Fulton which had just been converted into a pedestrian entrance in 81 making it a brand new feature when Preiss buried the casque. 4) The “Double D’s” on the bottom… there have been several theories. Here’s a new (maybe stupid) one to consider with a grain of salt: Grateful Dead. The first D doesn’t look complete… in fact it looks like a G. The Dead’s concerts in GGP are legendary — in the 80s, they were still very much a fabric of San Francisco. VERSE 7 OBSERVATIONS: STONE WALL’S DOOR I take this to be more of general meaning than others do. As you entered GGP in 82, just as you do today, much of it is surrounded by STONE WALLS… tall walls, and short walls. But don’t get locked into the idea that the stone wall’s door must to be an arch. Yes, there are bridges and tunnels in GGP with stone arches… some with barred gates (that were also there then), so it’s a possibility, but doors come in all shapes and sizes TWAIN’S ATTENTION My first choice is the paddle boats. They were there in 81. There was also a renewed attention on Stow Lake because the Pavilion was NEW and a big deal! Permanent changes to GGP are RARE… when there’s a new feature, it is front and center in park maps, guide books, and shiny new signs pointing the way. In 81, the Huntington Falls were still broken but the paddle boats were out in force. You couldn't miss the sound of the mini paddle wheels lazily churning on the water. Their very name literally elicits a very central, universal image and essence of Mark Twain. This is an accessible clue — it’s not an obscure reference of one of the thousands of things and people that attracted Twain’s attention over his lifetime. Priess wanted us to find the casque by exploring OUTSIDE… not to be buried in research libraries for years (remember this is wayyyy pre-google / smart phone era). I think the Double D on the bottom of the image is in fact the arched tunnel at Kezar at the very East side of the park. Or it is possibly the combination of the tunnel and the half circle entrance to the park where Haight dead-ends.

Unknown: It would be like the Chicago casque being over a mile from the fencepost. Or the Cleveland casque being over 4 miles from the Terminal Tower.

It's dangerously easy to pin hopes on this enigmatic card shelter. For instance, what if the bas relief of Ghirardelli matched the "lincoln/JFK" profile? I really want to find pictures of it just to see that it was a drab, unadorned, run-down hovel.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Or the Cleveland casque being over 4 miles from the Terminal Tower. Except the Terminal Tower is a major, well-known architectural landmark. The ironwork over the door of a Senior Center way out towards the ocean, not so much.

For me I am locked in for the hunt to start at the senior center, To me it fits the criteria of both casque found. It starts on the outer edge of the park and you work your way in. To me the second verse "air smells sweet" goes hand in hand with spreckels lake. Sugar and Sweet go better together then Flower and sweet?? Plus flowers only bloom a certain time of the year so that would bring your search from March to June. So if you are looking for sweet smell of flowers in Sept your out of luck! I think Senior and Spreckels fit well into the way the puzzle works. Then you walk right into "three posts are high" right from the lake view. It just seems very fluid in the path you take from the senior center, Verse, Physical location verified by illustration. With the dragon being really the clincher above the door confirms this is a point of interest. Again just my view lol

I too have looked for reasonable Dragon matches and so far these are the best seen, I am not ruling out others, but right now this matches as a waypoint IMO. Is it starting middle or end, I really cannot say, but if you count the curved railing staircase it leans toward the beginning or end. The clues that have us perplexed are the giant pole and giant step, which the Cliff House and the Goddess of the forest would have fit, but those have been either explored or destroyed as documented by Malted Falcon many moons ago. Twain's attention is so vast and vague a clue it is nearly worthless without the pole and step. Jewels direction is also vague as we have the Palace of fine arts area, Pearl St. and many other items that can be related. I will be back to do a walk around in the area of the Senior Center and the Conservatory of flowers soon. If you come in the Arguello entrance it has a stone wall which is behind the conservatory of flowers and views of the Sutro tower and College so it must be considered by me for now. And that is another issue in that the Tower is visible from over 50% of San Francisco so once again if this is a clue it is not definitive. Anyway I want to say anyone who finds anything of extreme importance or a match should consider letting the people who have been looking and on this board since the beginning first as they have put in so much time and eliminated so many sites that I feel they have earned it. Good Luck.

Unknown: Except the Terminal Tower is a major, well-known architectural landmark. And for the purposes of this puzzle, so now is the dragon at the Senior Center. The real question, IMO, is why is this "Polaroid" included in the Image? If it is a dig spot clue, then shouldn't we be digging within a few feet of it, like we do in Chicago and Cleveland, and not up to 1,000 feet away? That would make it an area confirmer, like the Bowman, or the fountain in the Italian Garden, but as you say, those are big and well-known and this is not.

I have put together a map of GGP of various objects that can be seen in Image 1 and also some locations suspected in Verse 7. I think it is helpful to look at the map and envision being in the park. You can see the "spray chart" of popular locations and other confirming items. This is NOT a solve. It is based on recent discussion on this thread and focuses on the Eastern side of the park. Feel free to save and edit it for your own use, or we can use it a crowd source document to expand on the hunt. Also, you can throw in your observations. Please note: This only focuses on the Eastern portion of the park, up to around 14th Ave. Thanks! https://www.dropbox.com/s/az8cdnlif03p6 ... .docx?dl=0

Goldengate wrote:: Hey G-man! That's really awesome! I don't want to accidentally screw up the your work in the file, so I'll mention here, the stairs leading from Kezar down to the playground area are really interesting and maybe worth marking? Thanks for the map... really great resource! Thanks for the props! The stairs are such a new development, I want to give it time to steep and see what rises to the top. We certainly can add detail as we go. Consider this a living document.

Great work! Have you considered knocking out a few holes around the senior center while these new landmarks are developing into a theory? I know Goonie thought it would be weird for BP to dig by a flagpole but GGP let Maltedfalcon dig there. I just feel there might be more to the ~3 door-image matches and ~3 flagpole-image matches than just a starting spot

drunknerds wrote:: GGP let Maltedfalcon dig there. actually for that dig i just asked at the senior center. the person i asked was a metal detetctorist so I got lucky

The smaller building that is boarded up near the carousel. What is it? Ticket booth? Concession stand? Maintenance shed?

I like the idea of the casque being in that end of the park... At one point I thought that "High posts are three" talked about the field goals at Kesar.

Continuing in jewel's direction ( Big Reg ball field) is an object, I believe it could be the carousel , Of Twains attention , Frog. In the illustration https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26675429368/in/dateposted-public/ Frog! Carousel Frog https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40503360112/in/dateposted-public/ Giant Pole https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40546926981/in/dateposted-public/ Giant step https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/ The stone pattern resembles the dragons body It also curves like the dragon.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39651412985/in/dateposted-public/ Silhouette matchs the silhouette of the carousel

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39835860194/in/dateposted-public/ Lincoln?

My understanding of the state of the southeast playground circa 1981 is that the carousel building was present, but closed while the animals were being restored from damage done by leaks over the years. As for the Sharon Art Building, it had a fire in 1974 and was still not fixed from that. So really, not a very lively sounding place, though I imagine the swings and such were still available for kids to play on. Any long-timers remember how lively and maintained the playground was in the early 80s?

treetops wrote:: My understanding of the state of the southeast playground circa 1981 is that the carousel building was present, but closed while the animals were being restored from damage done by leaks over the years. As for the Sharon Art Building, it had a fire in 1974 and was still not fixed from that. So really, not a very lively sounding place, though I imagine the swings and such were still available for kids to play on. Any long-timers remember how lively and maintained the playground was in the early 80s? This is great info. Do you know what the small building next to the carousel is/was?

gManTexas wrote:: This is great info. Do you know what the small building next to the carousel is/was? No idea. It's funny, because I was by there just last week wondering about that little place. The carousel was originally steam-powered. Could that building have been park of the operating machinery, a ticket booth, a maintenance shed? I might need to get up the gumption to go over to the McLaren Lodge and start asking nutty questions about the park's history.

treetops wrote:: No idea. It's funny, because I was by there just last week wondering about that little place. The carousel was originally steam-powered. Could that building have been park of the operating machinery, a ticket booth, a maintenance shed? I might need to get up the gumption to go over to the McLaren Lodge and start asking nutty questions about the park's history. Just tell them you are from the office of a potential benefactor who is really rich and interested in preservation.

From photo's that I have seen the building looks like it's been there a while. Yes the Carousel was under repair at that time but, it is a main staple in the park and I can see Preiss including it in the puzzle, Even if it was not in operation it still would of been a major mark in the park. There could of been enough work done on the carousel to include it in the puzzle. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/

Both the carousel and the Sharon Building have been there for a VERY long time (1940s and 1880s respectively). I wasn't meaning to dismiss either as relevant to the solve, just trying to get an idea of what Preiss would have encountered had he been there. For instance, if the carousel was boarding up and the animals removed, he could reasonably reference the structure's exterior, but not a specific animal like the frog.

True, anyone see the frog in the illustration? Or am I just seeing it?? LOL

treetops wrote:: Both the carousel and the Sharon Building have been there for a VERY long time (1940s and 1880s respectively). I wasn't meaning to dismiss either as relevant to the solve, just trying to get an idea of what Preiss would have encountered had he been there. For instance, if the carousel was boarding up and the animals removed, he could reasonably reference the structure's exterior, but not a specific animal like the frog. What is interesting to me is while researching a lot of these cities and parks, how run down they were in 1980. Not sure if Preiss hoped they would be restored, and maybe his book would spur interest in revitalizing these treasures. I'm pleasantly surprised how much work has gone into fixing up the parks since then. Having said that, the renovations may be detrimental to finding casques 36 years later.

Has anyone considered the Verdi monument? There is a small child holding a flagpole and taking a step on the base. It's right near the Shakespeare Garden. Some people have talked about Verdi and Twain.

So here's a question. How long did it take Press to make the book. 12 paintings ,book illustrations over 200 pages to the book. He might of started this year's before it was released. I think he would of had to have all the ground work done before he sent I'n the photos and instructions

Good thinking. The first thing to do is to see if he did his photography when he did the whirlwind cask burial in 1980. I know its been stated, I believe by BP, that he had JJP do the paintings and wrote the verses after that. So if that were true we'd know everything drawn would have to have been there in 1980, because everything was recreated from photos

My theory on the Twain connection is that if the rock formation in the illustrations is a frog, then to me it ties in Twain to a visible clue. The SF puzzle is dedicated to California, more importantly North California. Twain's clue has better traction to Calaveras county ( Frog Jumping ) than any other connection in northern California. I would think Priess would use this more so then a reference to the Mississippi River. If the object is a frog then with a frog being in the carousel then it ties the direction to that area. Then it ties in the cable car marker, possible ties the pole and then leads to the stair case which is a marker like the fence post or the wall with columns. Again just thinking out loud.

Yes about the camera that would be true that the pictures would not have a whole lot of detail in them , so the outline of the pole would be a silhouette and both cameras (polaroid and DSL) would pick up a silhouette correct?

GG, how I got to the "Frog" was that if the baseball diamonds are in Jewel's direction, then the next step would be Twains' object. Looking at the park and what is in that area the carousel came into play, plus the cable car, plus the stair case. So if there was a Twain clue anywhere near that location, the frog ties in. Yes I agree we all see different things and that's why I believe that a box has not been found in over 30 + years from renovations to speculation on the clues. Just trying a different angle to see what comes out of it...

Yeah I think the problem with the carousel is that maybe the animals where taken and then placed back during a period of time, but I post a picture from 1980 with inside top part of the carousel that looked like it was freshly painted or updated, so that makes me think that you could still see the inside of the carousel and maybe the frog was there at that time Just a shot?? LOL

Goldengate wrote:: I believe that's correct. I also seem to remember hearing he used a Poloroid camera... so if that was the case, I wouldn't be looking for detailed reference points that are hard to get close to and would require a SLR 35mm camera with a zoom lens to capture. I can get behind this theory. It's my opinion that three major visual reference sources were used to create the images. 1. Maps 2. Historical photos and paintings 3. Polaroid photos by Preiss 1. Maps would be relatively accurate and sharp. Some elements in the images are sharp and need to be that way for geo-locating us. 2. Photos and paintings allowed for JJP to integrate themes onto the images. 3. Polaroids, while not sharp would give us info on what BP saw at the location. This also would allow Preiss to almost instantly see whether he got the shot versus waiting for film to be developed. If we look at Image 1, all of the mess in the background could simply be the inherent lack of detail in a Polaroid. Especially if BP was taking them from a distance.

gManTexas wrote:: 1. Maps would be relatively accurate and sharp. Some elements in the images are sharp and need to be that way for geo-locating us. 2. Photos and paintings allowed for JJP to integrate themes onto the images. 3. Polaroids, while not sharp would give us info on what BP saw at the location. Good thinking but consider that the maps BP has been show to have used are the touristy local guide maps that are available near the locations. Sometimes these can be kind of "cartoony" for lack of a better term. Polaroids... as a traveler he probably carried the SX-70 folding camera. the sx-70 in particular but in any event all the polaroid models suffered from Barrel Lens Distortion. http://cjo.info/classic-cameras/polaroi ... nal-model/ This means even if you traced the polaroid photo exactly, there would be some images that didnt exactly match the object. for instance if you shot a picture looking up at a tapered flagpole in the worst case the flagpole would get wider in the middle but, more common it would just look the same size as it went up

maltedfalcon wrote:: Good thinking but consider that the maps BP has been show to have used are the touristy local guide maps that are available near the locations. Sometimes these can be kind of "cartoony" for lack of a better term. Polaroids... as a traveler he probably carried the SX-70 folding camera. the sx-70 in particular but in any event all the polaroid models suffered from Barrel Lens Distortion. http://cjo.info/classic-cameras/polaroi ... nal-model/ This means even if you traced the polaroid photo exactly, there would be some images that didnt exactly match the object. for instance if you shot a picture looking up at a tapered flagpole in the worst case the flagpole would get wider in the middle but, more common it would just look the same size as it went up Completely agree. I also believe that he must have had a giant atlas that he worked from. This was probably augmented with tourist maps.

gManTexas wrote:: I also believe that he must have had a giant atlas that he worked from. This was probably augmented with tourist maps. I believe he used National Geographic maps & AAA maps. If you can find some that predate 1981, it helps figure out the way things were.

I have a AAA map of SF from 1978 I will post later tonight.

Is the general consensus the verse 7 is married with image 1 amongst the members here? I'm trying to play by the rules and post verse related topics over in the verse 7 thread, but it's not getting any love. It seems that many of the verse threads now play second fiddle. Should I just post my ramblings here?

gManTexas wrote:: Is the general consensus the verse 7 is married with image 1 amongst the members here? I'm trying to play by the rules and post verse related topics over in the verse 7 thread, but it's not getting any love. It seems that many of the verse threads now play second fiddle. Should I just post my ramblings here? Yes, but that is not in any way Set in Stone. It's Just a consensus. Listen when I first suggested it, Verse 7 was by unanimous consensus paired with image 7 - first it was 7/7 so it had that going for it, but there were long detailed theories, one I think involved the Jax brewery? but anyway I thought v7 worked with SF better so I argued it... in the end the "consensus" switched around... but that being said, I havent found a casque with it yet... In general post verse stuff in the verse thread... I guess we all need to get back in the swing of posting things where they belong!

Goonie68 wrote:: I have a AAA map of SF from 1978 I will post later tonight. great!

Opps I posted the map in the verse thread. Sorry .

Goonie68 wrote:: Opps I posted the map in the verse thread. Sorry . It's okay because I made some verse related comments over there.

Here is a link to PDF with GGP inventory for Historical register it lists dates of construction for areas also - https://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/ ... 001137.pdf

Happy 100th page everyone!

Goldengate wrote:: 3) the line that goes across the top of the image just under that door, almost appears to be a crease in the painting itself. If that painting has a glass cover or some other coating, the line you see could be caused by a reflection from a window across the room. I'll need to recover my recording to see how it flows with the camera.

WHY ISN'T THE BARRED DOOR THERE?!

It looks half-finished to me. Curious. Were the illustrations heavily retouched after JJP had rinsed the brushes...?

There was a second painter on the grassy gnoll.

erexere wrote:: There was a second painter on the grassy gnoll. Lol!

If the door was a last mintue addition by Preiss, it would explain why we can't find an exact match. I doubt Preiss had JJP's ability to recreate from photos so exactly.

Some more photos from the SFPL local history center: The Children's Playground in 1981: Elephant Slide at Playground in 1989: Senior Center in 1988: Behind the Senior Center in 1988: McKinley memorial at the end of the panhandle, which I was not aware was referred to as "Justice": Still impossible to find images of: -The old Ghirardelli card shelter north of Alvord Lake -The small building behind the carousel

Goldengate wrote:: Treetops! Amazing! I agree, pure gold.

Unknown: Reporter Steve Davis explores the history of San Francisco's famous park and current problems relating to long-delayed care of structures and wooded areas. Interviews with park manager Tom Malone and activist Ray Clary illuminate a range of issues related to park restoration. They have a 26-minute video (as in VHS tape) there from 1983 that I really want to watch next trip: https://sfpl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1005597093 I would have checked it out today, but my eyes were just too bleary from squinting at all those little slides on a flickering light box.

you've inspired me to watch a video series (of at least 12 parts) called "Lost Landscapes of San Francisco" hosted on http://longnow.org/ -- they might just be history lectures but i'm hoping for images in the footage.

you've inspired me to watch a video series ( of at least 12 parts) called "Lost Landscapes of San Francisco" hosted on http://longnow.org/ -- they might just be history lectures but i 'm hoping for images in the footage.

Lost Landscapes is created by Rick and Meghan Prelinger, who run the Prelinger Libary, which would be a great place to do some more research for the hunt: http://www.prelingerlibrary.org/home/ They have a big collection of old San Francisco ephemera, planning and engineering documents, and the like. Another place for online delving for any city is Internet Archive: https://archive.org/

Lost Landscapes is created by Rick and Meghan Prelinger, who run the Prelinger Libary, which would be a great place to do some more research for the hunt: http://www.prelingerlibrary.org/home/ They have a big collection of old San Francisco ephemera, planning and engineering documents, and the like. Another place for online delving for any city is Internet Archive: https://archive.org/

I started with the most recent video -- they seem to have had these annual events -- which was 70+ minutes of home movies and odd documentary outtakes. (Reminds me a bit of the Psychotronic Film Festival at Foothill College, for the locals) A lot of city streets, but some shots of the beach in 1972 (around the 60:minute mark), looking north to the Cliff House of that era, and whatever was at the Sutro Baths back then. I 'll definitely dig into that other archive, thanks. For now, here are the direct links: http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/dec/1 ... ncisco-12/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02016/dec/0 ... ncisco-11/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02015/dec/0 ... ncisco-10/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02014/dec/0 ... ancisco-9/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02013/dec/1 ... ancisco-8/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02012/dec/1 ... ancisco-7/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02011/dec/0 ... ancisco-6/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/dec/1 ... ancisco-5/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02009/dec/0 ... ancisco-4/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02008/dec/1 ... francisco/ (3rd?) ( I didn't find the first two years with the standard search -- maybe they were under a different name at first)

I started with the most recent video -- they seem to have had these annual events -- which was 70+ minutes of home movies and odd documentary outtakes. (Reminds me a bit of the Psychotronic Film Festival at Foothill College, for the locals) A lot of city streets, but some shots of the beach in 1972 (around the 60:minute mark), looking north to the Cliff House of that era, and whatever was at the Sutro Baths back then. I'll definitely dig into that other archive, thanks. For now, here are the direct links: http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/dec/1 ... ncisco-12/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02016/dec/0 ... ncisco-11/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02015/dec/0 ... ncisco-10/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02014/dec/0 ... ancisco-9/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02013/dec/1 ... ancisco-8/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02012/dec/1 ... ancisco-7/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02011/dec/0 ... ancisco-6/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/dec/1 ... ancisco-5/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02009/dec/0 ... ancisco-4/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02008/dec/1 ... francisco/ (3rd?) (I didn't find the first two years with the standard search -- maybe they were under a different name at first)

Amazing work, hunters! Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says?

Amazing work, hunters! Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says?

drunknerds wrote:: Amazing work, hunters! Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says? I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"

drunknerds wrote:: Amazing work, hunters! Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says? I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"

treetops wrote:: I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!" LOL, it also may say, "Lost and Found desk. Inquire inside." It sure looks like they tore up the lawn to plant that sign.

treetops wrote:: I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!" LOL, it also may say, "Lost and Found desk. Inquire inside." It sure looks like they tore up the lawn to plant that sign.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it says: San Francisco Recreation & Park Dept

Actually, I 'm pretty sure it says: San Francisco Recreation & Park Dept

Are you sure it didn't say, "A great place for Mark Twain to pay attention?"

drunknerds wrote:: Are you sure it didn't say, "A great place for Mark Twain to pay attention?" or Mark Twain spent the night here.

Another question is: Was there a sign somewhere indicating it was the police academy before? "Education and Justice" fits a police academy perfectly, but it's moot if there was no indicator that's what it was.

Could also be a red-tail hawk or the Perigrine Falcon that SF is known for.

This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration.

This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration.

Goonie68 wrote:: This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration. Funny I always thought it was a crow.

Goonie68 wrote:: This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration. Funny I always thought it was a crow.

Well, I mean, there's this: I don't think you're going to get an exact match on your bird head: It's either just a coincidence made by the juxtaposition of a curve, an oval, and a triangle... or else it's so rudimentary I just can't see Preiss seeing this children's block eagle and saying "yes! That is art worthy of my book, out of all the art in GGP."

Well, I mean, there's this: I don't think you're going to get an exact match on your bird head: It's either just a coincidence made by the juxtaposition of a curve, an oval, and a triangle... or else it's so rudimentary I just can't see Preiss seeing this children's block eagle and saying "yes! That is art worthy of my book, out of all the art in GGP."

At the entrance of Arguello. From today's trip into the park. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40692393152/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25864538297/in/dateposted-public/ Maybe this is the eagle? Not an exact match, but could be the inspiration?

At the entrance of Arguello. From today's trip into the park. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40692393152/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25864538297/in/dateposted-public/ Maybe this is the eagle? Not an exact match, but could be the inspiration?

Pairings from the park today. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40025022834/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25863930167/in/dateposted-public/ This is to show the tree line of the park then and now. Almost lines up with the front tree line and back tree line, of course 30+ years of growth. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840243465/in/dateposted-public/ Possible location the casque is? Stone pattern almost a match to the dragon's body and curve. Step. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840235235/in/dateposted-public/

Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it. I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer

It would really help me if you opened paint and quickly outlined what you think is a match. For instance, the frog and peak are as different to me as two images could possiblt be, but that's probably because I don't know where to look.

drunknerds wrote:: Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it. I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer Yes it was a zoom in but when standing there you can see the eagle with the naked eye just fine. It wouldn't be a stretch to see it even from ground level.

Goonie68 wrote:: Pairings from the park today. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40025022834/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25863930167/in/dateposted-public/ This is to show the tree line of the park then and now. Almost lines up with the front tree line and back tree line, of course 30+ years of growth. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840243465/in/dateposted-public/ Possible location the casque is? Stone pattern almost a match to the dragon's body and curve. Step. https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840235235/in/dateposted-public/ This is good stuff, but wasn't the carousel closed during that time period?

drunknerds wrote:: Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it. I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer Didn't you say that BP liked to reference 2 inch tall features on the bottom of a statue? The top would be fair game too.

Yes it was closed, but it has windows and you can see in side, From what I can tell , it looks like the animals might of been there in the early 80's https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/ 1980 copyright picture.

Goonie68 wrote:: Yes it was closed, but it has windows and you can see in side, From what I can tell , it looks like the animals might of been there in the early 80's https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/ 1980 copyright picture. I can buy that. Especially any frog connection. It's a little tenuous, but works.

To me the connection with frog brings the Twain clue closer, this is northern California puzzle and most people that live up here know about Calaveras county and the frog jumping contest, would make more sense to connect something to northern California, maybe? I think Twain's involvement in that area is more pronounced then any in SF. Again only my opinion.

The carousel was completely dismantled and sent to germany during the timeframe in question.

gManTexas wrote:: Didn't you say that BP liked to reference 2 inch tall features on the bottom of a statue? The top would be fair game too. Fair point. The key here is that you couldn't get a close up on something high with the cameras at the time. You could close-up on something low. Goonie, I hear you when you say it is visible with the naked eye, but exactly how high up was it? There's a translation loss between seeing something and taking a 1980 polaroid of that something

drunknerds wrote:: Fair point. The key here is that you couldn't get a close up on something high with the cameras at the time. You could close-up on something low. Goonie, I hear you when you say it is visible with the naked eye, but exactly how high up was it? There's a translation loss between seeing something and taking a 1980 polaroid of that something I was just ribbing you a bit.

Having been through those gates countless times, I can say that the eagles are quite visible from the street. I think the real problem is, that if the overlap in the dragon's tail was deliberately made to resemble an eagle (I seriously doubt it was), it's an abstracted enough depiction to make it impossible to say it represents any particular specimen out of the many, many eagles that adorn statues and other landmarks throughout the park. Just today I passed the Grant monument (eagles), which is near the Key memorial (more eagles). Even if we restrict it to eagles with their heads turned to one side, that doesn't do much to narrow things down.

Goldengate wrote:: Plenty o eagles in GGP, I agree — and I agree none of the candidates so far have been a match — but as someone who practically lived in the Academy of Sciences / steinhart and the De Young in the early 80s, there were countless stylistic WPA era deco friezes , mosaics etc that were lost at those two locations in the years after the earthquake and subsequent remodeling. To me that image is a purposeful and highly specific stylized example meant to be recognized. If it’s gone, it’s gone but certainly easier to see to the naked eye than the elephants, bison, monkeys etc that have been noted here and elsewhere. I think the slow erosion of the horseshoe court reliefs is a prime example of once prominent features that were there in the 80s but disappeared to erosion, etc. Anything’s possible but I absolutely believe that’s a purposeful representation of a bird. It’s one of the few disruptions in patterns in the dragon visable in every version of the book, scans and even freeze frames of expedition unknown! Of all the thing people have seen in this image this feels like the least abstract of them all. I tend to agree. JJP did things for a reason. Could it the into the "and Justice for all" verse?

Well, just don't tell me about that old chain of Golden Gate Park soft pretzel carts with the distinctive logo

treetops wrote:: This is the cross section of a cable car rail, the kind of thing that would be part of any exhibit on cable cars or San Francisco transit: You all know what I'm seeing here. Please, somebody talk me off of this ledge. Have we been down this road before? Some more examples: treetops, not sure what you are seeing or making a connection to here.

...listen...it's a blob...but it's not the blob...back away from the edge...

drunknerds wrote:: Great tip, thanks! I will make some calls tomorrow and see if I can get to the bottom of what is going on. Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center. Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here: http://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/

drunknerds wrote:: Great tip, thanks! I will make some calls tomorrow and see if I can get to the bottom of what is going on. Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center. Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here: http://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/

I listened to a podcast on Outsidelands.org about the Portals of the Past. After a long intro, they got into it. It was an interesting listen, and they mentioned that the historic photo of the Portal was something almost everyone in San Francisco had on the walls growing up. http://www.outsidelands.org/podcast/WNP131_Portals_Past Another interesting thing that jumped right out at me, is that during the conversation, they mentioned the robber barons of Nob Hill. The podcast was done in 2015 and this still seems to be part of the local lexicon. If we look at the Field Guide in the Secret, in the Philharmonic Orc section, robber barons are mentioned. In fact, I believe the entire entry is about SF. Specifically, the Masonic Center Auditorium, which sits on the same site as the old Alban Towne Mansion. The Philharmonic Orc section also mentions: the nouveau riche of the main line (trains), wild frontier, and Barbary Coast. The Barbary Coast could be the historical reference to northern Africa, but it more likely a reference to San Francisco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_C ... _Francisco

drunknerds wrote:: Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center. Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here: http://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/ Never mind, I freed up some time to call this afternoon. I'm the freak about the senior center, I should finish strong.

drunknerds wrote:: Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center. Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here: http://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/ Never mind, I freed up some time to call this afternoon. I'm the freak about the senior center, I should finish strong.

Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.

Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.

treetops wrote:: Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are. Wonderful! Thank you for the update

treetops wrote:: Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are. Wonderful! Thank you for the update

drunknerds wrote:: Wonderful! Thank you for the update I say you make your best guess and see if they will dig you a hole!

The Innocents' Abroad, by Twain, contains this line: no other object can chain your whole attention. Referring to the Milan Cathedral Now, we already knew that ten years ago. Here's the thing I found which I think may be new(at least it seems to be according to the search bar) DeYoung Museum has an etching of the Milan Cathedral. https://art.famsf.org/ladislaus-rupp/il ... 9633034185 Got to commute, but then I'll hit up that department and see if they know if it was on display in 1980