Quest4Treasure Archives

We think this picture (the Centaur) is Philadelphia, right? (Because of the Keystone and the Liberty Bell).  And our experience in Chicago suggests we look for statuary in parks, right? Here's a list of the major artwork in Philadelphia parks: hxxp://philaparks.org/ewaas.htm (I'd add the list itself, but I think it's too long for this board.) Does anything here remind anyone of anything in Image 4 or any of the verses?

Nice find on the list of statues Shawn.  I agree, statues seem to play a large part in these P's.  I also believe this P leads us to PA ..... but am still not sure about Philly.  Yes, the L-bell is in Philly but could this also just be a confirmer for the state of PA?  For some reason, I keep finding myself leaning to Pitt instead......

I believe this image falls under the following theme: March? (3-sided triangle?) Aquamarine Jonquil? Violet? Daffodil? (can't tell) Greek Theme "The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear."

Sorry, I tottaly missed the page 2 of listings, I started another thread about image 4.... Just a couple things: Liberty Bell: points to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania The arch is prominent in the picture. There is an Arch St, in Phili. The image shows what looks like apollo, as the man side of the minator: the position of the face look like the face on the emblem of the Athenaeum of Philadelphia (although that image is of athena). The image looks like a tomb, there is a "tomb of the unknown soldier" in Phili. Does anyone live near there. I would love to see a good picture of the front of the Athenaeum of Philadelphia building.. By the way, in almost every photo I found of landmark buildings in Phili, there was some kind of archway, my guess is there is one that looks exactly like the one in the image... Has anyone figured out the face? might be a lion face??

One more thing..... I am trying to tie this to Verse 9.. Anyone else have any better verse?

ok robp....now you are getting somewhere.  There has been mention of the outline of a building in the upside down trees elsewhere on these boards.  Yes it is there.....yes, it appears to be a church but are you sure you have the right church?  Oh the anticipation..... it is good to see that it did not take long for you to catch up  😀

you are making me wait

Excellent find, funny how you can look at something a hundred times and not actually see it.... I agree the building seems to match your photo.. Anyone live in that area? Also, did anyone else have better verse? although it interesting that in verse 9 there is "Behind bending branches" which could be a reference to an image in branches (though something tells me no!) I don't understand your reference to the neighborhood called friendship?

This could be promising.  Perhaps our overall problem is that we are too scattered across multiple casques. Perhaps we should all temporarily leave aside all other issues and converge our brains on this single possibility until we either find the casque or decide it is a rabbit trail. All USA hunters speak up!  Who is closest? I am in St. Louis. --Johann

If you are just asking whether the two feline heads are the same, it's hard to tell.  [The image is dark, but on closer inspection I see a lion's full mane around our image's face, which is not really like the panther in the photo at all.] If you are asking whether that location is a match to the clues, I don't think so. I was thinking that there would be a wall fountain more closely resembling the image, rather than taking the attributes separately.  For example, in the image the lion head is inside the alcove under the arch, not above it as in the photo.  The book image also shows a small shell bowl in the wall, inside the alcove under the arch.  I think the right location has to take all of those attributes into account. Bellow the shell bowl in the image are two pillars or columns which might be part of another structure.  I imagine there is a single large park with a horse statue at one end and that wall fountain at the opposite entrance, and the building silhouetted in the tree branches will be visible in the distance.  The pillars might be near the fountain, or they might be in yet another area of the park. We have the Chicago image as a reference for just how close together the visual clues are linked in real life.  Also, they seem to be quite literal likenesses for the real thing, so our horse statue is not going to be just any statue, but the horse must be posed in the same manner. I tried online searches for images of horse statues -- and there are a LOT of them just in Philadelphia proper -- but have not yet come up with even a close match.  Perhaps it is a famous painting and not a statue, hanging in a famous lobby?

Ok, to respond to Johann, I am no direct help, as I am in California. We need someone who is closer to PA; and knows the area. I agree that it would be great to concentrate on one image, figure out the most likely verse and beat it to death till we figure it out! About the "lions head" I agree that it looks like a lion, and I also agree that the images inside the alcove probably mimick real life landmarks, but I think they are separate. The lion head and shell are tradition style, but the other image (lets call it the glass panels, have a modern architechtural look). Also I think the shell is actually an upsidedown dome. It may be apart from the lion head.

It looks like I am going to be in Philadelphia in about 4 weeks.  So, I am going to lay out everything I have from this pic so far, which I believe leads to a casque in Philly.  Here are the links to a courtyard on the Penn campus (the first link is the most striking): hxxp://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/about/Overview/buildinghistory.html hxxp://www.facilities.upenn.edu/artHistory/view_art.php3?id=13 hxxp://www.facilities.upenn.edu/artHistory/view_art.php3?id=8&a=Search This "cup" could conceivably be the centaur's cup: hxxp://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/about/Overview/buildinghistory.html There could be fountains which resemble the centaur's hat: hxxp://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/about/plan/needs.shtml The high-res pic of this image is very good -- but I still can't figure out what the fountain image is --- man or beast?  Ben Franklin?  A lion? btw, the verse that we also think may lead to Philly is verse 6, discussed in that thread.  However, the Freedom Theater is not near this courtyard.

Catherwood, it's good to see you back. Since you started the search in verse 1, do you have any comments to that? wilhouse

Does the helmet resemble a WWI helmet? --Johann

OK.  Here is more information on the Cleveland Cultural Garden and let your opinions be known.  I am pairing this image with verse 4. Go to www.clevelandmemory.com/ebooks/tpap/pg51.html for the images of the Greek garden.  Compare the Doric columns and the backgrounds (frieze?) to image 4. Go to www.clevelandmemory.com/ebooks/tpap/pg73a.html and compare the large "bowl" to the one held by the centaur and especially compare the lower Terrace Wall to image 4. It looks to me like image 4 combines images of the two gardens.  The gardens are next to each other and joined by a path.  For a map, go to: www.csuohio.edu/history/fac-stf/mtebeau ... 20Cultural %Garden.JPG The Gardens are located between Martin Luther King Blvd. and East Blvd., and between St. Clair and Superior Avenues. King Blvd. was first named Lower Level Dr. and then was named **Liberty Blvd.**  This would account for the L and Bell at the bottom of the image.  The upside-down spire looks like a narrowed outline of one of Cleveland's notable buildings. --Johann

addendum: The spire-building could be the Terminal Tower. www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/ ... ltower.jpg But I'm not sure. --Johann

That's wonderful!  It certainly looks convincing to me --- especially the fountain area.  For that wonderful person who does high-res scanning, is there a way to get a closeup of the Cleveland fountain?  I've searched for a better pic on the internet, but came up empty. Johann, your link to the map doesn't seem to work.  If you read Verse 4, it seems that the treasure may be hidden on the path, but I'm not certain.  There is a "rectangular plot" and "rows and columns" (verse 4) in the Greek garden, but I am not sure if you would be allowed to dig there, so maybe they didn't hide it there.

Unknown: OK.  Here is more information on the Cleveland Cultural Garden and let your opinions be known.  I am pairing this image with verse 4. Go to www.clevelandmemory.com/ebooks/tpap/pg51.html for the images of the Greek garden.  Compare the Doric columns and the backgrounds (frieze?) to image 4. Unknown: Go to www.clevelandmemory.com/ebooks/tpap/pg73a.html and compare the large "bowl" to the one held by the centaur and especially compare the lower Terrace Wall to image 4. It looks to me like image 4 combines images of the two gardens. Unknown: The Gardens are located between Martin Luther King Blvd. and East Blvd., and between St. Clair and Superior Avenues. King Blvd. was first named Lower Level Dr. and then was named **Liberty Blvd.**  This would account for the L and Bell at the bottom of the image.  The upside-down spire looks like a narrowed outline of one of Cleveland's notable buildings. --Johann I agree that both pairs of columns bend out oddly at the top, and that all the columns have nothing on top (which is rare, to my experience.)  It bothers me that the ones in the photo are grooved and the ones in the image are smooth.  I suspect that's a deal-breaker...anyone else? The arch looks very similar, but I can't see the bowl in this monitor I'm using. Okay, that's good....

I actually think this is a bullseye.  The wall in the Greek Garden is an exact match with the wall under the arch in Image 4.  The columns are virtually the same.  The tower is a match as well.  The fountain in the Italian garden is the clincher.  That's Image 4 --- you've got it!  I have looked at Image 4 so many times, I would love to take a trip to Cleveland just to see that fountain.  All these years, I've been looking in Philly, but now I can see that it's not Philly.  Johann, are you really going to go there in May?  Verse 4 may be a bit tricky, so it would probably help to have 2 people talking it out on site.  (Also, a couple of websites say the area is a bit dangerous.)  If I can convince my wife to let me do this crazy thing (and I think I can) --- we live in New Jersey --- I can meet you there.  If you want to do it yourself, I can understand that as well.

I have to attend an academic conference (International Medieval Studies Congress) in Kalamazoo, Michigan from May 6-9.  I would like to leave for the conference and take an out-of-the-way route that would put me in Cleveland on May 5th.  I would enjoy meeting anyone willing.  Or, if someone wanted to go there earlier to either retrieve the treasure or gather info, that would be great too.  That would help me either by pre-dig info or saving me the trip. --Johann

Excellent work! This is as strong a lead as we've had, and I agree that the columns and "bowl" are too close to not match.

Sorry Johann, I can't do it during the week.  I live in New Jersey!  But please take a digital camera with you.  I would love to see a head-on shot of the fountain, and pictures of the path that hopefully curves between the Greek and Italian gardens (verse 4).

I am currently negotiating with my wife about getting to Cleveland.  She does have a digital camera, and that also may take some negotiation.  I'm going to do what I can. I am still curious about that branches in the lower left of the picture, or any other little details. --Johann

I am very impressed with the finds in Cleveland; however,  I hate to  ;D rain on everyones parade but how did we all just migrate from PA to OH with P8?  I still feel that the gem (being in the KEYSTONE position) leads us to the Keystone State....sorry folks, think I will stay in PA with this P.

oops, I meant P4.  I'm also not too keen on V4 going with this P.  Another location makes much more sense....especially the very first line.

Well, we do have to keep our minds open and consider that we could be wrong.  Fox's perspective is a healthy one. I think that somehow the "Beneath two countries" can work well for a garden composed of many small gardens each devoted to a different country.  I still am clueless about the dates on the monument: 1442 and 1881, noting that the circles of the eights are divided.  For those of you who are believers in the P4 + V4 = Cleveland idea: Alas, lack of gas money keeps me from Cleveland.  So, if anyone can and will go fetch the treasure (if it's there) then please do so. Meanwhile, I think it's a good idea that we also pursue Fox's theory.  Eventually, the truth will be known, whether it's Cleveland or PA. --Johann

My wife seems to be okay with the idea of me heading to Cleveland for a day.  I will be on vacation for 2 weeks starting at the end of this week, and I will go to Cleveland when I get back.  I have a digital camera to take pics and put them on the internet.  I'll bring a shovel just in case --- who knows? It would be nice if we could get all of the other clues figured out before I head to Cleveland.  I would think that verse 4 indicates that it is buried in the rectangular plot of the greek garden --- either that, or the pathway between the greek and italian gardens.  It would be nice to see what it says on the greek wall.

I neglected to mention: There is a pylon of some sort in the Greek garden that bears the names (among others) of Socrates, Pindar and Apelles. A friend of mine noted that the following line of the poem could be a parallelism: Free speech (Socrates's ideals), couplet (Pindar the poet) and birch (he and I are clueless as to how this would relate to Apelles). I notice that there is what looks to be a music note to the right of 1442. --Johann

i recall reading somewhere in the book, that you WONT have to dig in any gardens or cemetarys.  am i right in thinking this?? or did i read that somewhere else ?

Well, I don't see how I am going to be allowed to go into the Greek Garden with a shovel, start digging in that rectangular plot, and not get arrested.  Does anyone have any ideas? BTW, Johann (and SoonerFan) --- how did you guys come up with the Cleveland Cultural Gardens? Also, that musical note, under high-res, appears to be nothing more than a few cracks.

The book specifically says that no treasures are buried in a cemetery or public flower bed. I found the Cultural Gardens by doing a Google search of "Socrates Pindar Apelles." --Johann

First Post since picking "The Secret" back up... just thought you might want to look at this thought of mine since Cleveland is where I thought it might be all along and since there seems to be someone checking it out... hxxp://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presi ... 0.htmlThis would relate to 1881, James Garfield is buried in Cleveland.  There is a lake there that has been renamed, however, used to be called "Centaur Lake" once upon a time. hxxp://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?a ... taur+Lake+ )) you will need to copy this link as clicking doesn't work with all the parenthesis Also of note:  The Liberty Bell had it's initial repairs done in Cleveland, The Triangle is a symbol of the Mason's; of which Garfield was a member. Just my 2 cents And still not sure which verse goes

Nice work, Rexbolius.  Here is some further info: James Garfield is buried in Lake View Cemetery located at 12316 Euclid Ave. To the west is Wade Park, which has Centaur Lake (whatever it is called now). From there, follow Wade Park Rd./St. west and it will come to Rockefeller Park.  The northern part of this long park is the Cultural Gardens at 690 E. 88th St. This area as a whole is the east side of Cleveland. --Johann

Unknown: Well, I don't see how I am going to be allowed to go into the Greek Garden with a shovel, start digging in that rectangular plot, and not get arrested.  Does anyone have any ideas? How is this for an idea?  It isnt in the Garden in Cleveland.  ::)

i like the matching of that one wall with the arch in the Cleveland cultural gardens. I went in search of other images, didn't find too much more. bowl in hand ? hxxp://www.clevelandmemory.com/ebooks/tpap/pg70a.html hxxp://www.wcpn.org/accents/images/gallery-1/20.html sphere? hxxp://www.wcpn.org/accents/images/gallery-1/11.html hxxp://www.sculpturecenter.org/oosi/scu ... sp?SID=596 hxxp://www.sculpturecenter.org/oosi/scu ... sp?SID=594 (the triangle could represent the Tri-State area) map of the cultural gardens hxxp://www.csuohio.edu/history/fac-stf/ ... ardens.JPG I'm rusty on what all the verses say, and i've lost track of what were the last best guesses for each.  Maybe a summary thread is in order...

Darn you Cat.  Just as I was beginning to feel good about myself not thinking P4 was in OH instead of PA, you come along with some more great finds  :D.  But why not PA the Keystone State?  The more of these pics you guys keep finding, the more logical it seems to be in Cleveland.  We just need to get someone there and dig up casque 2 once and for all so we can turn our focus on the remaining 10. Since I have been quite the naysayer lately (wanting to believe P4 was still in PA), I will spill my beans about my theory on V4 as well.  I have always liked my theory about the first 3 lines especially leading us here : hxxp://www.childrens-express.org/gifs/photo_un_un.jpg "Beneath two countries...."  and the sidewalk/road even curves.  Still trying to tie this with P12.....

As I said before, after examining all the links, and reading about the Greek and Italian gardens, I am convinced that the treasure is there, and I WILL go to Cleveland when I get back from my 2-week vacation, which should be May 1.  I will go there with a camera and a shovel (and maybe a friend), and will try not to get arrested! At the very least, I will get to see that darn fountain.

I ran across this site before, but couldn't get into it.  Thanks Rob.  The small columns you see appear to be just small seats, and they are grouped in 3s, not 4s (unless I'm looking at the wrong pic).  The other pics on this page appear to be from the Chinese garden. Page 8 is the Greek Garden, and it has some closeups.  You can see the names of the philosophers on the wall. On Page 10 is a head-on shot of the Italian fountain --- but it's too dark to see anything!!!!  Arrrrgh.

That csuohio.edu site has a nice map of the gardens.  You can even read the labels as to which garden is which and see how the Italian and "Grecian" gardens are connected.  For some reason, my earlier attempt to post the link failed. Go for it, Egbert! If you also want to see some other beautiful treasures, I highly recommend the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  I once ditched an academic conference to go there and left with no regrets. --Johann

If I may offer some advice - after going to Hermann Park with a shovel and coming away with nothing, I have been thinking about a better plan. When you go, buy a Tshirt with the logo of a local university.  Go to the site with a clipboard, tape measure, pen and a 5 foot long dowel or pole, preferably sharp on one end. Bring a hammer. Go to where you believe the treasure might be, and use the pole and hammer to "tap around" in the dirt at the 3-4 foot level.  The treasure should be in a plastic container, and you will feel the resistance.  This assumes the dirt is not too hard. If anyone asks what you are doing, tell them you are taking water level measurements for a study the school has been hired by the city to do.  Better yet, get permission first. good luck. wilhouse

why not just bring a metal detector with you.  Theres a metal key in with the casque, and the book says they're all 3-3.5 feet down, which is well within range of any metal detector today.

Looking at the picture in the book of the casque and key, it seems that they are both made of ceramic, so I don't think a metal detector would work. I like the college idea.  I was also thinking of taking a long pole with me, but I am not sure that I would be able to feel the resistance when I am banging with a hammer.  So far, though, that is the best idea I've heard.  Anyone else?

The school shirt and the dowel idea is fantastic.  I also agree the metal detector wont work because both the casque and the key are ceramic. Best of luck on your hunt through the garden.  I do; however, feel that we need a little more of an idea as to the V.  V4 may be correct but I still like my UN idea.  Be sure to bring your copy of the verses, that way, if you reach a dead end using V4..keep applying the other verses until one takes you to the treasure.  I too am pretty well convinced with the P being in OH but not the V.  8)

This is still really encouraging and I wish you luck!

Unknown: Lots of interesting pictures from the site available at this linked website: hxxp://academic.csuohio.edu/clevelandhi ... mages1.htm The picture labeled "Welcome" at the top looks just like the columns under the centaur's arch, which basically does away with the only reservations I had.

I am heading to Cleveland on Friday night, and will be there all day Saturday.  A friend of mine will likely be accompanying me, and he has come up with some nice ideas. We are going to attempt to obtain a ground-penetrating radar, for example.  We have other ideas as well. Since we will be at the site all day Saturday, we are bringing a laptop and would like to email you guys and gals if we become stumped.  For example, I have been dissecting verse 4 regarding the number of rows to count "from the top of the wall," and comparing it to the various pics of the Greek Garden to figure out where to dig.  This appears to be the major impediment to finding the exact location.  I will discuss it in depth in the Verse 4 thread. So, my question is ---- who will be around in the morning (Cleveland time) to talk with me about this, either by email or phone?  The treasure is there, and I intend to find it.

Good luck Egbert, I do hope you find the elusive casque.  Take some pics for us to see.

Egbert, I will be around all day on Saturday. Obviously from some of my posts, I may not be the most helpful of people on the board, but I will be around if you want. I live in Michigan, which is on the same time as Cleevland, so let me know.

I should be awake.  I'll leave you a private message with my e-mail addresses, okay?

may I ask how you intend on getting ground penetrating radar? I could use that for my investigations. good luck. wilhouse

We have contacted a nearby university, in the hope of having their geology or engineering department "assist" us with the radar.  We also hope to speak with someone who has contacts with the Cultural Gardens.  We just learned that the area is patrolled heavily by park guards, so there is no way to dig without getting arrested. The only way to get it is to get permission, which we may be on the verge of doing.  I'll keep you all updated.  (and thanks for your email Shawn)

The unhappy update. I have found out that if you dig in a public park without permission, especially in an area relating to a specific nationality (the Italian and Greek gardens), I could very well be arrested and held without bail under the current terrorism laws.  So, digging without permission is apparently out of the question. However, I am contacting various agencies, and believe I am  very close to obtaining permission.  It just isn't going to happen before tomorrow, so I will go as soon as I get it.  I am hoping that I can do it on one of the next 2 weekends. Sorry for the delay, but I am still very hopeful.

Fox's theory on latitude and longitude gives us Cleveland: 42 (from "1442") latitude by 81 (from "1881") longitude. I am very hopeful that I will get permission to dig this week.  I'll let you all know.

Egbert-- Does this mean that you have put together the clues and can actually put your foot on a spot? I'm not asking what that spot is, but I would just be excited to know that you are so close.  I really hope you are. --Johann

Oops.  I'm sorry.  I have been reading the threads backwards and didn't see the "bricks" dilemma.  Well, I hope that is solved soon. --Johann

Well, it's all set.  I got permission, and will be in Cleveland this weekend.  BTW, I think I figured out the triangle.  Euclid was the father of geometry.  Euclid Street goes right through the Cultural Gardens.

So what does the "L-Bell" signify?

Here is another thing I just found out which I dont remember egg mentioning which may also be a confirmer for Cleveland (a little late...yes, but maybe an idea of what else to look for in Ps). I am referring to the ball with the triangle.  I always believed this to be a comfirmer to my Pitt idea since everything around there is 3.....3 rivers....tri-state...etc...  But,  a triangle shape is also known as a Delta.  There just so happens to be a Delta State College located in a town in Mississippi.....oh yeah, the Mississippi town is called Cleveland.  So, maybe there are items in the P's that are "indirectly" linked to the location.  For example, maybe we will find something about Sam Houston (or even Angelica Houston for that matter) in the P that leads us to Houston.

That's a bit of a stretch, but I guess it's possible.  If I ever get to speak to Byron Preiss for any length of time, I'll ask him about the solution (which is in the safety deposit box with the jewels --- no, I still don't have the jewel yet). I took the triangle in the circle to mean 2 things:  Euclid Ave. which runs by the Gardens, and 3 o'clock (3 sides of the triangle) since the "3rd month" theme is in the picture (aquamarine, my birthstone).  The thing that bothered me was the dot on the circle which seems to indicate 9 o'clock rather than 3 o'clock (if the circle can be considered a clock).

Any word Eg?

As an fyi, I submitted a solution to Verse 1 to BP, in the area that is bricked in, because I can not dig there (the bricks are in 6" of cement). BP responded by saying that he would go to the vault and look for the solution in "about a month".  That was about 10 days ago. I say this because if he is looking for the solution to Verse 1, he can get Eg's jewel. wilhouse

Thanks for the info Wilhouse  🙂

He's still looking for the key to the vault.  Hopefully, it won't be long now..............

trying to see if there is a link to the park shape being in each image, looking at cleveland park map here: hxxp://www.culturalgardens.org/gardenDe ... ardenID=11 the shape of the grecian garden could be seen in the slant of the trees with the centaur guy in the middle, don't you think?

Egbert wrote:: I actually think this is a bullseye.  The wall in the Greek Garden is an exact match with the wall under the arch in Image 4.  The columns are virtually the same.  The tower is a match as well.  The fountain in the Italian garden is the clincher.  That's Image 4 --- you've got it!  I have looked at Image 4 so many times, I would love to take a trip to Cleveland just to see that fountain.  All these years, I've been looking in Philly, but now I can see that it's not Philly.  Johann, are you really going to go there in May?  Verse 4 may be a bit tricky, so it would probably help to have 2 people talking it out on site.  (Also, a couple of websites say the area is a bit dangerous.)  If I can convince my wife to let me do this crazy thing (and I think I can) --- we live in New Jersey --- I can meet you there.  If you want to do it yourself, I can understand that as well. I liked this level of support.  Kudos to you Egbert and the time when folks really went for it.  Lets again emulate this example.  Come on folks, kick it up a notch!

Haven't seen this mentioned and I apologize if it was. A subtle clue in the Ohio map. This is the exact location where the casque was found. Notice the circle. There may possibly be other "X marks the spot" confirmers in the other images.

deuce you might be right, img 5 on the left tower,and where the bars come off the tower and closest to the tower a cable runs from, looks like it might be a pully forms an X, and looks like about where chicago and the park are,but at the least the city area,chicago hxxp://goo.gl/maps/2Pw21

I noticed that one of the Doric columns in Image 4 is slightly tilted. Not seen it mentioned before. So I looked on Google Maps and was surprised that the columns could be seen in Streetview. I had always assumed the stonework was in the gardens between the Greek and Italian cultural gardens. If you go to this location and turn round, the Greek Cultural Garden is just like in the image! https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF-8 ... ted+States ... and the exact location is shown in this middle photo I think. hxxp://www.culturalgardens.org/gardenDe ... rdenID=11#

might the cap that nobody has found be the same shaped rooftop window as you look opposite? hxxp://goo.gl/maps/zVwwC

How do you produce that url? I looked at Bing Streetview and it is easier to see because there are no leaves on the trees. That window is a big confirmer. Good spot.  :app)

wk wrote:: How do you produce that url? The link you create will lead the user to google maps with a view of exactly what was in your screen when you created the link: 1. click the create link button once your view is where you want it. 2. create a short url by checking the box, then copy and paste it where ever.

Thank you. I will try it on another image location.

i always thought the hat was the italian garden fountain, but i guess the fountain is the chalice good find on the window/hat hxxp://goo.gl/maps/gg9zJ hxxp://goo.gl/maps/JGtC2

forest_blight wrote:: Wow, thanks for the streetview.  Spent lots of time the past couple of days enjoying "walking around."  Too bad there are no good views of the back of the wall, since you can then see the "7 steps up you can hop." BTW, when you are standing in the Greek Garden, and look to the right, the chalice is right there in the Italian Garden.  I never turned around to look at the houses, but that window is a pretty good match.  If the centaur's helmet in the Image is supposed to be the window on the house (and it probably is, since I do not recall anything else that came close, and not even JJPalencar could remember), then that got me thinking. Of course, we all understand that there are "site confirmers" in each image, that when you are near the treasure spot, you will see these things.  However, for the most part, in all of the Images, the site confirmers that we have been discussing are somewhat "famous" confirmers that may actually be in books about the area, etc. (for example, the Archer in the Chicago Image, or the Centaur's chalice, or the eagle in Image 12, or the Gh in Image 1, etc., etc.).  But, it appears from the Cleveland and Chicago treasures, that there is also something "non-famous" in each Image; something which is very non-descript and you can see it when you are standing there, but there is no way it would be in any book.  The house window in Cleveland is one example, and the fence outline in Chicago is the other: So, maybe there is something unexplained in each Image - such as the "blob" in Image 9 - that we just cannot find a description or photo of, on the internet, because, who would take a photo of some non-descript thing - like the Chicago fence or the Cleveland window.  So, maybe looking around in Google or Bing streetview a little more than we have been doing, will yield some results.  Just a thought.

Egbert wrote:: Wow, thanks for the streetview.  Spent lots of time the past couple of days enjoying "walking around."  Too bad there are no good views of the back of the wall, since you can then see the "7 steps up you can hop." Pleased you like it, it has made my day.  🙂 Is this not the back? "Every spring, flowering trees and shrubs welcome new life back to the gardens, as shown in this photo of the Greek Cultural Gardens taken from below its main patio." How about this one?

Lots of step photos on this report of repairing the garden in 2009. hxxp://blog.culturalgardens.org/index.p ... ek-garden/

wk wrote:: Pleased you like it, it has made my day.  🙂 How about this one? That's a good close-up, but you still cannot see the 7 steps to the wall.  There are actually 5 steps, as I recall.  The bench itself is step 6, and the garden is 7.  When Siskel and I counted those steps, we knew we had it.  You just cannot see those steps on any internet site, in advance. Also, those 2 cups next to the garden were not there when we were digging.  Perhaps that is the reference to "couplet" in the Verse?

How about this original drawing Grecian garden planting plan dated 1938? It even gives you the name of the plant that you dug up near! 3 steps then 2 steps = 5? You can download it or zoom in too. Amazing "Rockefeller park - Greek cultural garden Detailed plans for the garden design, including layout, plans, Poet's Urn, and stone work." hxxp://cdm16014.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ ... 24/id/1736 Grecian gardens stone structure drawing is even more amazing! Grecian garden plan of capital gives details of the columns. ... and even drawings of the missing poets urns.

Very cool.  Well, I think that just about settles what "couplet" refers to:  the 2 poet's urns.

President Garfield, entombed not too far away, called the First Lady "Crete" (Lucretia). Perhaps the Nymphs of Hellas cherished this sweet nickname, since Crete is large Greek island.

keystone No one seems to have ever mentioned that the jewel is on a crooked keystone. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_(architecture ) Notice that the left side of the keystone is at more of angle than the right side. I think this is a hidden clue for the Cuyahoga county which Cleveland is in. The map needs to be inverted but I have not been able to match the municipal and township districts with the stonework on the left side of the arch in image 4. hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Labels.PNG (2177)

I have a favor to ask. On one of the other threads we're getting down to the nitty-gritty of lines that appear to show the exact placement of each casque in the ground. It would be enormously helpful if we could test the theory by knowing the precise burial spot of a casque that has already been found. The obvious one to test is the Cleveland site. One photo from the Plain Dealer article shows Egbert digging in the left end of the bed: But another photo from the same article shows him celebrating in the right end: So where was it? I know it's been 10 years, but could Egbert (or someone else who knows) give us a precise location for where the Cleveland casque was located in the garden bed? Here's a map showing what would be an aerial perspective of the garden bed: So, where exactly in that green rectangle was the casque buried?

Unknown: So, where exactly in that green rectangle was the casque buried? On the right, as you face the treasure ground from below. The verse leads you to the left, which is why they were digging there initially. Egbert had this to say about that in the Verse 4 thread (page 4); "The crazy part was the "right to left" clue, which I think should have been "from left to right."

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: On the right, as you face the treasure ground from below. That was my understanding, too. Okay, so let's draw a line from the tip of the centaur's nose through the very center of the jewel: Here's a close-up of where we go (with color added to show the garden bed): How's that for a match?

Unknown: No one seems to have ever mentioned that the jewel is on a crooked keystone Nice Work! The slope of the line is the same as the left of the keystone too. Is this a coincidence? ...or a clever hint by the artist?

Drawing a line from the tip of the Terminal Tower connecting to the triangle in the sphere looks interesting as it points towards the middle of the picture.

When you stop and think about it, any of these puzzles really, you might ponder the question of whether Preiss chose to a most specific degree what visual elements are working in concert or whether JJP had more freedom to work a set of polaroids into something meta-themed to fit a general Fantasy feel. Surely there's an artist' touch to it all, but I'm getting a strong inclination to believe Preiss organised the material in a very specific way. (I'll discuss that in the Methodology thread) This image presents us with a centaur. A centaur is half horse, half man. The numbers 1881 may be connected to the date of President Garfield's death. His tomb is not far south east of the Cultural Gardens in Cleveland. I brought forth the idea that LotJ mentions the Nymphs of Hellas and the cherished sweet of their aquamarine as a focus on a woman figure, namely "Crete", Garfield's nickname for his wife Lucretia. I think I've found another thematic link between Image 4 and Cleveland, this time a word fragment of sorts. Cleveland = "Cleave" + land. Cleave is the verb for "to split apart". The centuar is a half-breed, split into part horse and man. Interestingly, Garfield's death was the result of a politically motivated assassin in the Stalwart party which was pitted against the "Half-Breeds" (half Republicans) political party. I think this bit of historical recognition helps to identify Preiss' breadth of knowledge and how he works with particular words to find a uniquely strong and playful connection between a location and a particular Fair Folk.

Unknown: n . A bust or figure of the upper part of the human body, terminating in a plain block of rectangular form; a half-statue or bust, not placed upon but incorporated with, and as it were immediately springing out of, the square pillar which serves as its pedestal. I've been wondering why specific visual details are used in each image. In most cases it looks like visual clues are just for directional purposes, but sometimes I wonder if there's more to it. We know the Terminal Tower is found in the image and it's considered an major structure, iconic to Cleveland, and far from where the casque is recovered. The word 'terminal' is very similar to 'terminus', and I found an intriguing definition that fit the Grecean context, Doesn't this seem like a good fit given there was a decision to place a Centaur up on top of the pedestal? I've also been thinking the Historic Water Tower in Chicago had a similar relevance. It's essentially a vertical or stand pipe for allowing firefighters access to water and for controlling water surge. Almost like a giant fire hydrant? I once theorized that the reason for the Chicago verse using the word "Hush" in the final line was like the idiom "Pipe down!" This leads me to wonder how other puzzles' iconic image clues might inspire a correct line of focus.

The urn on top standing on top of the corner of the plot fitting the defintion of a "terminus" looks like a great candidate for being a small scale fit for the Terminus Tower. Once you flip the image 180 and mirror to match the road map curve, then you have the jewel set in the right place to draw lines that might some geometry .

Revising my geometry idea . Draw a line from the jewel to the 4-windowed-wall sketch Draw a line from the Terminus Tower to the jewel The poet urn is the terminus the end of the planter wall. Use the lines to cross reference the count of the bricks.

Was watching "A Christmas Story" with the family last night and I couldn't help but notice right after the opening shots is a big view of the Terminal Tower. It wouldn've been awesome if someone got their first lead on this puzzle while watching this movie in 1983...

erexere wrote:: Was watching "A Christmas Story" with the family last night and I couldn't help but notice right after the opening shots is a big view of the Terminal Tower. It wouldn've been awesome if someone got their first lead on this puzzle while watching this movie in 1983... It sure would be. Also, I think it's awesome that you're watching A Christmas Story and it reminds you of the hunt because you happen to know that the building in the movie is the Terminal Tower. I bet if someone had noticed that, the line to the cask would have been backed up to Terre Haute. I forget what movie it was I was watching recently, but I had a similar experience. I believe the city being portrayed in the movie was Detroit, but I realized that there was a sequence shot in Dorchester Square, Montreal because I recognized the Dominion Square Tavern. 5 treasure hunt points for anyone who can tell me what movie that was. It was a newer film, but I can't remember. I tried some basic Googling but nothing rings a bell.

Deadfall (2012)?

You know you're hooked when you start queuing up old movies or TV shows hoping to catch a glimpse of some Fair Folk... I've watched the Blues Brothers for some old Milwaukee footage...

forest_blight wrote:: Deadfall (2012)? edit: I don't recall ever seeing that movie, but it has to be the one.

Whether a person could actually perform this kind of analysis in 1982 is hard to say, but here I've taken a map and made some simple assumptions to illustrate a concept that there could be "anchors" from the perspective that uses two significant features to produce a geometric relationship on a standard city map. We have the problem and "answers" fairly well defined for Cleveland, so, Assumption 1: the Terminal Tower is the largest scale iconic landmark Assumption 2: the Terminal Tower's position in the painting is relative to the frame of the perspective (this is the center of the bottom edge of the picture). Notice how the Greek Garden is actually positioned so that when you look directly on the twin columns with the large wall in the background, you're facing a direction slightly southwest. What is that, negative 15-20 degrees from west? I've rotated the perspective to make a clear comparison with respect to the framed image. Now draw some imaginary lines and compare the right triangles. Not to shabby. I assumed the same thing might work if you compare the fence with halo and Historic Water Tower positions in Chicago to a map but I didn't get the same results, because I realized that the location of the casque was somewhere east of the fence. There's a lot of eyeballing here, so don't expect it to be an exact science. Maybe there's something to be learned here.

The constraint that would make a geometry to map method work is to have any success would be some indication of direction. A north arrow for example. The presence of ths triangle on the sphere might be such a device. It gives us a 1/3rd chance of correctly aligning the painting's main perspective to the anchored iconic landmark. Chicago's and Boston's image have some strong arrow indicators that may set the painting in a top-is-north perspective.

erexere wrote:: The constraint that would make a geometry to map method work is to have any success would be some indication of direction. A north arrow for example. The presence of ths triangle on the sphere might be such a device. It gives us a 1/3rd chance of correctly aligning the painting's main perspective to the anchored iconic landmark. Why choose the triangle? Why not the horse's hoof, the tip of the tower, the centaur's elbow? Do you really think that BP would have required us to arbitrarily choose and object and drawn lines? Better questions... we know that JPP made these images by himself for the most part, and we know that he didn't know where the casques were. How could JPP have conveyed anything in the images other than what BP told him to and/or gave him? You think an artist would have been happy being dictated to? Why did BP not just create the images himself if they were that precise? Is there anything in the image that looks as if JPP maybe didn't paint in there?

JJP didnt make the images by himself. I'm proposing a theory that something in the image points to North. When correctly aligned, the only thing that looks close is the one corner of the triangle. Thats why. Nothing else looks obvious. This might still be as arbritrary as anything else. I dont know yet. So far, I'm relying on some facts and taking an educated guess.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You think an artist would have been happy being dictated to? Unknown: Why did BP not just create the images himself if they were that precise? Not that I'm on board with this particular theory, but: I think when you're getting paid to do a project and that project was to create a picture that needed to lead a person to a hidden treasure (or at the very least not lead them away from it), then you do what you are paid to do. The Secret was one of JPP's earliest projects, and he was what, 23? He likely didn't have a whole lot of leverage to tell his employer to screw off. Maybe the lack of total artistic freedom is why JPP isn't a bigger fan of the hunt. BP was not an artist. At least not on the level of JPP.

If you are just hired for a job, then why go act as lookout while your boss is burying a casque...wouldn't you just do the contracted art and get paid and be done with it? What reason would you have to actually help bury a casque if you were just being hired as an artist?

decibalnyc wrote:: If you are just hired for a job, then why go act as lookout while your boss is burying a casque...wouldn't you just do the contracted art and get paid and be done with it? What reason would you have to actually help bury a casque if you were just being hired as an artist? If anything, that's evidence in favor of JPP having more contact with BP about what to put in the images, not less. But to hear 421 talk about it, you'd think BP sent JPP some Polaroids and didn't give him any other details whatsoever. If JPP was closer to BP than strictly business partners, one would think that they at least had some conversation about the images and how they needed to complement the verses and the lead to the casques. We still had telephones back then, even if they looked like this .

Agreed, but consider the magnitude of what he was doing, and the time frame he was trying to do it in. BP was ahead of his time with computers, but as you said, Ma Bell was the only real way to communicate, that and the mail. I think Preiss had to have been sending Palencar the polaroids as he was in the process of burying them for Palencar to have the art done in time...then the whole thing had to be put together in a book, old school format...matte's made, film shot and plate transfers made before it could be printed...it took a lot of time back then. Even if they were doing it together (which I believe they were) both of them still had to operate using what would be considered archaic methods by today's standards.

Follow up on my mockup as a map. When I look at it again, I don't see that the triangle in the sphere works perfectly as a pointer to North. At a glance it looked like a maybe, but I don't think BP/JJP would've been off by that much. I don't think the hoof or elbow are obvious or correct choices either. The only thing that keeps it from being arbritary is that the location of the Terminal Tower is strictly south west of the Greek Garden, which is itself aligned slightly southwest such that the placement of the Terminal Tower in the image is marginally correct when viewing the wall itself from the 2 columns on the northeast side of the wall. From that fact, it's hard to dismiss there's some kind of rough geometric coincidence when looking at a standard map of the city. Using this information as a reliable or practical method to approach the other puzzles is the tricky part and where arbritary decisions are bound to be flawed.

decibalnyc wrote:: Agreed, but consider the magnitude of what he was doing, and the time frame he was trying to do it in. BP was ahead of his time with computers, but as you said, Ma Bell was the only real way to communicate, that and the mail. I think Preiss had to have been sending Palencar the polaroids as he was in the process of burying them for Palencar to have the art done in time...then the whole thing had to be put together in a book, old school format...matte's made, film shot and plate transfers made before it could be printed...it took a lot of time back then. Even if they were doing it together (which I believe they were) both of them still had to operate using what would be considered archaic methods by today's standards. Having to do it quickly doesn't preclude them from working closely, or stop BP from giving precise instructions for the images. I try not to guess too much about what either of them were thinking three decades ago, but It feels unlikely to me that with how much work went into this project that BP would only give loose instructions and free reign for JJP to add whatever he wanted. The images may be second fiddle, but it seems like it would be lazy to open the possibility of even more false leads by letting stuff into the images that may lead people away from the treasure. That's not to say I think every piece of the image is a clue. If you have a flower, it needs to have a stem. If you have a clock, it needs hands. Trees need leaves and realistic surfaces need imperfections. But when something stands out as odd, I think it's more likely to be a clue than artistic license.

Frisco wrote:: Having to do it quickly doesn't preclude them from working closely, or stop BP from giving precise instructions for the images. I try not to guess too much about what either of them were thinking three decades ago, but It feels unlikely to me that with how much work went into this project that BP would only give loose instructions and free reign for JJP to add whatever he wanted. The images may be second fiddle, but it seems like it would be lazy to open the possibility of even more false leads by letting stuff into the images that may lead people away from the treasure. That's not to say I think every piece of the image is a clue. If you have a flower, it needs to have a stem. If you have a clock, it needs hands. Trees need leaves and realistic surfaces need imperfections. But when something stands out as odd, I think it's more likely to be a clue than artistic license. Very much agreed on all of this. People were able to closely collaborate on projects pre-internet, if that's the major concern here.

erexere wrote:: When I look at it again, I don't see that the triangle in the sphere works perfectly as a pointer to North. . Especially when we are using the triangle as a a visual confirmer of where to turn off Euclid street to enter the park and drive straight to the treasure ground. from the transit tower it is a straight drive with only 1 turn (at the triangle, a big sign on Euclid) that takes you right into the park (East Blvd)

decibalnyc wrote:: What about Ohio? Kidding. This is good stuff. I had a longer post here, but I think I'll move it over to Methodology, even with all the drama over there at the moment.

Unknown: A march or mark was, in broad terms, a medieval European term for any kind of borderland, as opposed to a notional "heartland". More specifically, a march was a border between realms, and/or a neutral/buffer zone under joint control of two states, in which different laws might apply. In both of these senses, marches served a political purpose, such as providing warning of military incursions, or regulating cross-border trade, or both. The Aquamarine is the jewel for Cleveland (ignoring the sapphire debacle), and is the birthstone for March. A "march" is also a word used to describe a boundary, I think BP acted with purpose when he chose the Terminal Tower and leads the seeker to a rectangle bounded plot "beneath two countries". If you think about it, quite simply, two countries can't exist without a "march".

Unknown: "Dedicated on October 12, the 441st anniversary of the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus, in commemoration of the successful flight of General Italo Balbo and his air armada from Italy to America and return, appropriately named the Modern Columbus." I'm a bit curious about a plaque on a monument standing between the Italian fountain and the Greek wall. It reads, The number "1442" displayed in image 4 happens to be the reverse of 4 of the 5 numbers that appear on this plaque in order: October 1 2 , the 441 st.

I recently noticed that there are 024 hours in a day... all three numbers reverse meaningfully... Coincidence?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I recently noticed that there are 024 hours in a day... all three numbers reverse meaningfully... Coincidence? Nope... not a coincidence.

Thanks! So in the original image, the numbers weren't there? Interesting

1442/1881...? Sure they are.

I’m sure this has been talked about before, but I haven’t seen or found this specific explanation previously. Anyway, while having a conversation last night with a friend and fellow hunter, the topic of the seemingly reversed directions of verse 4 came up. The specific directions that lead to the casque burial site read “from right to left”. When on site standing at the back of the wall, it is known that the casque was buried on the right side of the planter. This would imply that the directions were incorrect or reversed for a multitude of speculated reasons. While looking at image 4 with this in mind, it appears that the front of the wall is pictured. If you think of where the casque was actually recovered, with the perspective from the front of the wall, the directions are then correct. Were the directions simply intended to be followed from what is pictured in the image? From right to left of what you are shown? Just a thought taken from a 4 beer conversation.

BINGO wrote:: I’m sure this has been talked about before, but I haven’t seen or found this specific explanation previously. Anyway, while having a conversation last night with a friend and fellow hunter, the topic of the seemingly reversed directions of verse 4 came up. The specific directions that lead to the casque burial site read “from right to left”. When on site standing at the back of the wall, it is known that the casque was buried on the right side of the planter. This would imply that the directions were incorrect or reversed for a multitude of speculated reasons. While looking at image 4 with this in mind, it appears that the front of the wall is pictured. If you think of where the casque was actually recovered, with the perspective from the front of the wall, the directions are then correct. Were the directions simply intended to be followed from what is pictured in the image? From right to left of what you are shown? Just a thought taken from a 4 beer conversation. I went to Cleveland and did the whole walk through. As you are facing the wall in the Greek Garden, you see the names and they travel to the right, then back. The left side forces you to step back and take a set of stairs in a roundabout way. The right side is an easier path to get to the back or street side of the wall. I made a "map" of the wall. It is showing you to go down to the right and then over (on the other side of the wall). The casque was lined up with Apelles in the planter box. You can stick your head through the window and look down on the dig spot. https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view ... VKwIUYxZ5p Please forgive the link only, I can seem to get Google Drive to display in-line today.

Here is another page in the book I see as Cleveland: Can you guys see any other clues or information in this illustration?

MrBackstop wrote:: Here is another page in the book I see as Cleveland: Can you guys see any other clues or information in this illustration? That's really interesting.

MrBackstop wrote:: Can you guys see any other clues or information in this illustration? Damn you MrBackstop! Now you actually have me looking at the back of the book. Have you no sense of decency, sir?? With it being a common pop culture reference to show a reporter with a "Press" card stuck in his hat - and with hats being so generic, this is probably just a coincidence - but - Paul Brown, coach and alleged namesake of the Browns famously wore a fedora, long after they went out of style. It was kinda his thing. In so far as one fedora looks like any other - the dog wearing the hat did make me think of Paul Brown....

That's not a fedora its a walker... https://vintagedancer.com/1930s/mens-ha ... the-1930s/

Sorry Kang, it's Karlene's fault. I first dismissed her idea and then rambled thru the book one morning when my power was out. Next thing I know, I started to see pieces of the Images in the back of the book. I was just happy to find one illustration that had to do with one of the found casques.

maltedfalcon wrote:: That's not a fedora its a walker... Apologies, I thought it was a generic term for old-timey hat. No offense was meant. I stand corrected. Is there anything you don't know Malted? Lol.

There should be an Edible Haberdasheries thread...

Kang wrote:: Apologies, I thought it was a generic term for old-timey hat. No offense was meant. I stand corrected. Is there anything you don't know Malted? Lol. I don't know where the casques are...

Sorry I posted this in the wrong thread, deleted it and here it is now... If I actually got my hands on the pieces and photograph them myself, I could reconstruct this in much more detail but as it is I see it is not 5:00 it is not 4:20 (since the large hand does point to the 12) It looks kind of like the small hand points to the 10, but that is arguable still. but from this reconstruction all I can say is it is not 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 or 5:00

Best guess is the time is the same as image, 1 o'clock to 12. That eye piece could be rotated up a bit more to allow for 4 o'clock.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Sorry I posted this in the wrong thread, deleted it and here it is now... If I actually got my hands on the pieces and photograph them myself, I could reconstruct this in much more detail but as it is I see it is not 5:00 it is not 4:20 (since the large hand does point to the 12) It looks kind of like the small hand points to the 10, but that is arguable still. but from this reconstruction all I can say is it is not 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 or 5:00 Hmmm not sure what I am looking at. can you take out the Chicago image so we can see what's left I can't say it is not 4:20. I can see from your post that anything is pointing to 12

Choice wrote:: Best guess is the time is the same as image, 1 o'clock to 12. That eye piece could be rotated up a bit more to allow for 4 o'clock. it could but then the line under the eye looks wonky also then need to explain the straight line pointing at the 10

I am not sure about the part for 12 either. it is only the 2 part. there should a the 1 in the space to its right to complete the 12

the shard for 12 is up side down. it is the top of the 7 and the right cheek of face

Doghousereiley wrote:: the shard for 12 is up side down. it is the top of the 7 and the right cheek of face You mean that big red piece belongs down in the blue area? and the arrow that is under the 2 goes where? and If I do that it completely covers up the lips...

I think I see what you are talking about when you mean arrow I think you meant the black line because the clock hand are white outlined in black that black could be a shadow from the nose and your 2 of 12 the nose If the black part is the arrow. point it to the four. the colors match. you can see by the 8s that the numbers are not identical I say your bottom part of 2 of 12 is the top of 4 it is obvious not par t of 12 because the is nothing in the 10 columns. or nothign in front 2 to make it a 12 so in my mind it is not part of 12

Are you sure that's a line to 10 or just the broken sharp edge of the piece?

does anyone know who painted the inside of the lids? JoEllen Trilling? Does that person know the times on lids? Where they left unpainted so Byron or JJP could fill them in? The lids had to be painted before he buried them. so there must of been a logic to the times my thinking was that the lid was the indentifying feature

I think she holds that info for authentication.

Doghousereiley wrote:: does anyone know who painted the inside of the lids? JoEllen Trilling? Does that person know the times on lids? Where they left unpainted so Byron or JJP could fill them in? The lids had to be painted before he buried them. so there must of been a logic to the times my thinking was that the lid was the indentifying feature Maybe the time indicates the month/stone that goes with the key.

Choice wrote:: Are you sure that's a line to 10 or just the broken sharp edge of the piece? it is paint on the piece, but there is no way at this point to know if it is the paint that showed when the piece was new as the lid was obviously painted in layers...

MERLIN wrote:: Maybe the time indicates the month/stone that goes with the key. Clearly not 3 O'clock for image 4

I dont think the arrow is one of the clock hands they are white on the Chicago casque

Doghousereiley wrote:: I dont think the arrow is one of the clock hands they are white on the Chicago casque your mileage may vary, also know that much of the paint has flaked off in layers so the last layer ie the black around the hands of the clock would have been the first to go....

Did those guys ever go back to the site to see if they can recover more pieces?

Choice wrote:: Did those guys ever go back to the site to see if they can recover more pieces? many people have and I believe originally they were very thorough. I'm not sure if any subsequent searchers have found any more pieces.

Unknown: If I actually got my hands on the pieces and photograph them myself, I could reconstruct this in much more detail So, what's stopping you?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: So, what's stopping you? I live in California, the pieces are not. all the pieces are not in one place - they do not belong to me and the owner is busy so i've done the best I can with what I have and now I see I was wrong and this clock definitely points at 3:00

the left side shows the adjusted pieces the right side shows the adjusted pieces with the hands from chicago superimposed to show what a 3:00 position would look like.

So the 6 O'clock position on the Gay Cask is correct!

Choice wrote:: So the 6 O'clock position on the Gay Cask is correct! that is a possibility but 2 out of 12 is evidence for a theory not a definite method. but even a broken clock is right twice a day...

What other possibility could it be than the birthstone for image 4 to give us 3 o'clock?

Choice wrote:: What other possibility could it be than the birthstone for image 4 to give us 3 o'clock? I dont understand your logic in your theory what time would the lid for the Houston casque be?

Doghousereiley wrote:: I dont understand your logic in your theory what time would the lid for the Houston casque be? Actually Merlin mentioned this but it makes perfect sense. Ruby, birthstone for July. So 7 O'clock.

List of Images by number and time on the clock per Merlin's suggestion: 1. 6 O’clock, Pearl 2. 4 O’clock, Diamond 3. 1 O’clock, Garnet 4. 3 O’clock, Aquamarine 5. 5 O’clock, Emerald 6. 9 O’clock, Sapphire 7. 12 O’clock, Turquoise 8. 7 O’clock, Ruby 9. 10 O’clock, Opal 10. 2 O’clock, Amethyst 11. 8 O’clock, peridot 12. 11 O’clock, topaz

Unknown: I live in California Unknown: the pieces are not Unknown: all the pieces are not in one place Unknown: they do not belong to me Unknown: the owner is busy Unknown: i've done the best I can with what I have Allow me to translate: Irrelevant. Problematic, but hardly a non-starter. #FedEx #UPS #USPS #DHL One piece is not with the rest. It's the big piece with the 8 on it. The other 999 pieces are all together, or so we were told. Ah, I see the problem now. The owner has been "busy" for over fifteen years. Too busy to try and put the pieces back together. Too busy to let someone else do it for him. Busy, busy, busy. No doubt. Thank you.

Don't rag on MAtt. He's a living encyclopedia and an asset to this forum.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Allow me to translate: Actually your translation leaves a bit to be desired. Here let me help you. I live in California, The pieces are not in California, - If you owned an arguably very valuable damaged piece of art, would you just throw it in a fed ex pouch and cross your fingers ---- probably not -the safest thing to do would be to limit it's movements. The only 1 piece separate from the others - I think your data is out of date. The pieces don't belong to me, If they did I would have restored them into a single piece. but since I don't that isn't my or your decision. He's busy, yep that's what he said so I take his word for it. But the bottom line is you wanted to know if they Cleveland lid was different from the Chicago Lid I let you know it was months ago. but hey Hooray today we proved it points to three oclock I would have thought you would have been thrilled. why so glum?

Choice wrote:: Don't rag on MAtt. He's a living encyclopedia and an asset to this forum. great now I really feel old...

Choice wrote:: What other possibility could it be than the birthstone for image 4 to give us 3 o'clock? well I have no idea. I was stumped when I realized they didn't match the image number.. but this makes sense. I am just saying there is still the possibility there is something we don't know that would cause the numbers not to follow that pattern.

I guess we have to wait till Dr Gay pulls another one out!

Unknown: I let you know it was months ago. It was actually over a year ago;hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7246&p=137330&hilit=lid#p137330

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: It was actually over a year ago;hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7246&p=137330&hilit=lid#p137330 Months is a subset of Year so yes, months ago. but you know, time flies!

Your efforts are appreciated Matt.

maltedfalcon wrote:: great now I really feel old... Matt is a living, breathing, ever evolving, modern, internet-y version of what an encyclopedia used to be. But much cooler. (I won't say the 'W' word and further insult the man). And he can by sight alone tell the difference between a fedora and a walker. And has links as provenance. I got your back Matt. Rock on brother man....That perk you up?

maltedfalcon wrote:: but hey Hooray today we proved it points to three oclock I would have thought you would have been thrilled. why so glum? You did? I cant really see that. I guess the best you can say is you convinced yourself that the arrow point to 3. and Brian Zinn on facebook guaranteed that what it says. So end of story I still dont see it. also hard when you see only 5 pieces stuck into spots that I dont think they fit. I wonder what the other colored pieces look like. Yes I know it was painted in layers and the paint has fallen off or....... I really dont understand that part of your explanation. but whatever. you proofed it

Doghousereiley wrote:: does anyone know who painted the inside of the lids? JoEllen Trilling? Since your question was left unanswered. No I dont think anyone actually knows who painted the lids. The one was sculpted by JoEllen, then it was sent to Cali where a mold was made and the rest were poured. I've never thought to ask who painted the lids. I can ask, but I doubt I will get an answer.

Unknown: also hard when you see only 5 pieces stuck into spots that I dont think they fit. Give the man a break Dog. He's only 35% done.

burnstyle wrote:: Since your question was left unanswered. No I dont think anyone actually knows who painted the lids. The one was sculpted by JoEllen, then it was sent to Cali where a mold was made and the rest were poured. I've never thought to ask who painted the lids. I can ask, but I doubt I will get an answer. I wrote to JoEllening asking about the casques material This is her response The casque... was first built out of plasticine..it was then cast of some plaster/composite by a place on Lafayette St. in NYC that recreated architectural details. I no longer have the only copy that I had. Thank you for asking though. Best wishes, Jo-Ellen

........so did you asked who painted the bottom of the lid?

Spiritr wrote:: ........so did you asked who painted the bottom of the lid? I did not ask her. but I just sent a follow up email I just asked what the casque was made of in the initial email

Email from Jo Ellen I received today Sorry.... I don’t know who painted the inside of the casque lid. Best to you, Jo-Ellen

Doghousereiley wrote:: You did? I cant really see that. I guess the best you can say is you convinced yourself that the arrow point to 3. and Brian Zinn on facebook guaranteed that what it says. So end of story I still dont see it. also hard when you see only 5 pieces stuck into spots that I dont think they fit. I wonder what the other colored pieces look like. Yes I know it was painted in layers and the paint has fallen off or....... I really dont understand that part of your explanation. but whatever. you proofed it Doghousereiley wrote:: I wonder what the other colored pieces look like. "proved" , " proofed" is the process of allowing yeast to rise in dough So here is the methodology using small words, so you don't think it is just me sticking random images anywhere I think they fit. 1 Get a copy of the original background. 2 get pictures of the broken pieces from all sides, (it is important that all the photos of the new pieces be taken at the same distance from the broken pieces- more on that later) 3 find one piece that is recognizable as a piece from the edge of the casque (an area without paint) 3a in this case that piece is the piece in the upper right hand corner. I turns out that the not painted part is an exact match for the edge of the chicago casque (same bumps bubbles ridges and grooves) 4 - resize the photo of that piece, keeping the aspect ratio identical, until it matches the "terrain" underneath - at that point you know the resize amount to apply to all the pieces. 5 resize the photos containing all the other pieces (since the photos were taken at relatively the same height, the enlargement/reduction amount is the same as the first piece) 6 isolate any piece with paint on it, in the best case scenario the photo was taken perpendicular to the paint so besides trimming of area of non-paint there is not much to do. 7 on pieces where the photo was not taken perpendicularly, there are photoshop tools that allow you to determine the angle and distort the image, correcting the view to perpendicular 7a note this was only done with the piece in the lower right hand corner. 8 using photoshop tools, rotate the pieces each in an individual layer to until you determine its location. 8a To determine a pieces location you either match it to a spot on the paint underneath that is an exact match. for instance the corner of the 2 in the letter 12 , by placing it in that spot, not only does the corner match the 2 under the 2 the left hand side of the minute hand arrow is clearly visible and lines up with the right hand photo, and in that spot the curve of the 0 in 10 lines up. 8b the second method is to ignore the paint underneath on the chicago casque and line up the edge of the lid with the match edge of the lid. in this way we can see the 8 is clearly painted in a different location on the Cleveland casque. 9 using those methods I was able to demonstrate months ago that this casque pointed to a different time than chicago. 10 it wasn't until yesterday that I found in the photos (from Brian Zinn) the piece with the eye. (I had not noticed it before) 11 I placed it where I thought it went (matching the eye) but then Brian said he was sure the clock pointed to 3 12 I re-examined the placement of the eye and realized I had it 45 degrees off, once corrected it obviously fits there and what was simply marks on the paint became apparent they were the edges of the hour hand. 13 To be "placed" every piece needs at least 3 points of match from the Chicago casque, on the eye which was such a small piece, this was difficult. 14 I thoroughly apologize for the confusion. placing the eye incorrectly was my bad. I sincerely hope these facts don't get in the way of your theory. 15. yes, me too, sadly I don't beleive they exist anymore, I included everything I could find that had paint on it. Again it was only yesterday that I realized I had missed the eye piece. - I am sure I could do better if I had all the pieces and could photograph scan each piece in 3D as well as use a camera jig to photograph each piece exactly under the same lighting and positions and distance, But I don't think that is actually ever going to happen. I think I posted this here but if not here is the correctly adjust photos - in the second picture I just superimposed the two hands from Chicago in the 3 oclock positions just so we could possibly see what it would look like.

Unknown: But I don't think that is actually ever going to happen. Oh I don't know Matt. Maybe once Brian realizes that whatever is on the lid is not giving him the advantage he had hoped for, he will be more willing to share the information with the rest of us. Like the Chicago Boys did. #178 Months

(This seems more Methodology than anything, but we're here so... ) Maybe I am missing something, but how does the time on the lid help in the initial pairing of verse to image? Wouldn't we have already made the correct pairing, as would be evident in the fact that we would be holding the casque... which we just dug up... without any information from the lid? I think if anything, the time painted on the lid was: 1. Verification that this was a genuine casque (because who in their right mind would go through all the trouble to make a fake one just to get some attention), Or.. 2. Confirmation as to which stone BP was to send out. He may have simply numbered the stones to make it easier to distribute later. When he gets a letter from a reader claiming to have found a casque, he looks at the photos, matches the time with the stone, and mails it out. Who knows?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Oh I don't know Matt. Maybe once Brian realizes that whatever is on the lid is not giving him the advantage he had hoped for, he will be more willing to share the information with the rest of us. Like the Chicago Boys did. #178 Months Hmmm if that were even remotely the case I would have expected him to be more involved in searching in general. I get the feeling he is interested and likes to keep up but is not really involved day to day. I think you are attributing motives that don't actually exist.

UnprovenFact wrote:: (This seems more Methodology than anything, but we're here so... ) Maybe I am missing something, but how does the time on the lid help in the initial pairing of verse to image? Wouldn't we have already made the correct pairing, as would be evident in the fact that we would be holding the casque... which we just dug up... without any information from the lid? I think if anything, the time painted on the lid was: 1. Verification that this was a genuine casque (because who in their right mind would go through all the trouble to make a fake one just to get some attention), Or.. 2. Confirmation as to which stone BP was to send out. He may have simply numbered the stones to make it easier to distribute later. When he gets a letter from a reader claiming to have found a casque, he looks at the photos, matches the time with the stone, and mails it out. Who knows? as far as I understand it you are not missing anything other than 3. it probably helped him know which casque to grab when he went to go plant them also the stones were not numbered as we know Brian got the wrong stone for Cleveland.... Just confirming the cleveland number is an additional fun little detail with no real application whatsoever.

Unknown: When he gets a letter from a reader claiming to have found a casque There were two ways to claim the jewel. The first was to deliver the key, like Andy and Brian did, and the Chicago Boys before them. My guess is that the keys were color-coded, so BP would know without asking which puzzle had been solved. The second was to send in the answer sheet at the back of the book with enough information to satisfy BP. Either way, he would not have needed any more information to give out the correct stone. The casque, and the lid, had nothing to do with the endgame, otherwise BP would have insisted on recovery. They are unique works of art, and exist solely to preserve the integrity of the game, and to protect the key. Or so it seems.

Unknown: I think you are attributing motives that don't actually exist any more Fixed if for you Matt. Because as you know, I know. And I don't look good in tin-foil hats.

Choice wrote:: What other possibility could it be than the birthstone for image 4 to give us 3 o'clock? Wow, you guys have had some discussion on this issue. When I first looked for the "3" in this Image I immediately saw it in the centaur's tail. Growing up around horse racing it immediately struck me as strange when I looked at the tail....that's where I saw the "3" worked into the image.

MrBackstop wrote:: ... When I first looked for the "3" in this Image I immediately saw it in the centaur's tail. Growing up around horse racing it immediately struck me as strange when I looked at the tail....that's where I saw the "3" worked into the image. That may be so however there are many numbers present in images. Trying to find a common theme to the clock time painted on the reverse side of the lid. IMO there are 3 possibilities: Image #, Verse # or birthstone #. Or less likely maybe something completely different like # of orbs or symbols or fill the blank. Image # works for Image 5 but not for image 4 apparently. Verse # doesn't work for Image 5 so that's out. Leaves us with birthstone month.

Choice wrote:: What other possibility could it be than the birthstone for image 4 to give us 3 o'clock? For me it's the L+Bell engraving. A bell can be a symbol of time when it indicates the hour by ringing (that's the symbol to set the alarm on many clocks). Additionally, the word "clock" comes from the Latin word clocca, meaning bell. In an enigma where Italy and ancient Greece are bound together, a bell makes more sense than a modern clock. And yet, the L is the shape that the hands of a clock would make at 3 o'clock. Sure, the horizontal bar of the L should be shorter, but if you're looking for a time-related clue in this picture I think this interpretation is OK.

the L is the time indicator

maltedfalcon wrote:: "proved" , " proofed" is the process of allowing yeast to rise in dough So here is the methodology using small words, so you don't think it is just me sticking random images anywhere I think they fit. 1 Get a copy of the original background. 2 get pictures of the broken pieces from all sides, (it is important that all the photos of the new pieces be taken at the same distance from the broken pieces- more on that later) 3 find one piece that is recognizable as a piece from the edge of the casque (an area without paint) 3a in this case that piece is the piece in the upper right hand corner. I turns out that the not painted part is an exact match for the edge of the chicago casque (same bumps bubbles ridges and grooves) 4 - resize the photo of that piece, keeping the aspect ratio identical, until it matches the "terrain" underneath - at that point you know the resize amount to apply to all the pieces. 5 resize the photos containing all the other pieces (since the photos were taken at relatively the same height, the enlargement/reduction amount is the same as the first piece) 6 isolate any piece with paint on it, in the best case scenario the photo was taken perpendicular to the paint so besides trimming of area of non-paint there is not much to do. 7 on pieces where the photo was not taken perpendicularly, there are photoshop tools that allow you to determine the angle and distort the image, correcting the view to perpendicular 7a note this was only done with the piece in the lower right hand corner. 8 using photoshop tools, rotate the pieces each in an individual layer to until you determine its location. 8a To determine a pieces location you either match it to a spot on the paint underneath that is an exact match. for instance the corner of the 2 in the letter 12 , by placing it in that spot, not only does the corner match the 2 under the 2 the left hand side of the minute hand arrow is clearly visible and lines up with the right hand photo, and in that spot the curve of the 0 in 10 lines up. 8b the second method is to ignore the paint underneath on the chicago casque and line up the edge of the lid with the match edge of the lid. in this way we can see the 8 is clearly painted in a different location on the Cleveland casque. 9 using those methods I was able to demonstrate months ago that this casque pointed to a different time than chicago. 10 it wasn't until yesterday that I found in the photos (from Brian Zinn) the piece with the eye. (I had not noticed it before) 11 I placed it where I thought it went (matching the eye) but then Brian said he was sure the clock pointed to 3 12 I re-examined the placement of the eye and realized I had it 45 degrees off, once corrected it obviously fits there and what was simply marks on the paint became apparent they were the edges of the hour hand. 13 To be "placed" every piece needs at least 3 points of match from the Chicago casque, on the eye which was such a small piece, this was difficult. 14 I thoroughly apologize for the confusion. placing the eye incorrectly was my bad. I sincerely hope these facts don't get in the way of your theory. 15. yes, me too, sadly I don't beleive they exist anymore, I included everything I could find that had paint on it. Again it was only yesterday that I realized I had missed the eye piece. - I am sure I could do better if I had all the pieces and could photograph scan each piece in 3D as well as use a camera jig to photograph each piece exactly under the same lighting and positions and distance, But I don't think that is actually ever going to happen. I think I posted this here but if not here is the correctly adjust photos - in the second picture I just superimposed the two hands from Chicago in the 3 oclock positions just so we could possibly see what it would look like. 3 point match. what you use for 12 has no 1 infant fo it. that is not a point match. actually it is a point not matched. where is the rest of the 12??????? your 2 for the 12 is the top of 7 and the right cheek of face. I am sorry. I am not convinced at all you all the have 3 point matched. I think you have maybe shards in the right place

Unknown: I guess the best you can say is you convinced yourself that the arrow point to 3. and Brian Zinn on facebook guaranteed that what it says. So end of story For those of us not on FB, did Brian offer an explanation? Surely the guarantee can't be based on the pictures provided by Matt, especially since we now know that the first version (and perhaps the second version as well) might be wrong. In either case, I agree with Dog. Neither version is conclusive and nowhere near what I would assume Brian would need to guarantee what's on the lid. Is it possible that at long last, Brian got around to finally putting the puzzle together? And if that's the case, why not provide a picture of the lid instead of asking us to take his word for it?

Brian did finally put all of his pieces together recently. So it is possible that he was able to determine the time on the lid. Last I saw of all his pieces, I dont think he has enough of the lid to be sure.... but who knows, I could be wrong. He doesnt really post much, but either Me or Matt can send him a message and ask.

Unknown: I dont think he has enough of the lid to be sure.... Thanks for the straight answer George. I really appreciate it. But to be clear, Dog said Brian guaranteed it. Seems to me either that's an incorrect statement (as I said, I'm not on FB), or Dog got it right and Brian's statement is based on something provable, as he is usually not one to speculate without making it clear that he is offering his opinion and not a fact. Thing is, rock solid information in this puzzle is hard to come by. It's nice when we can finally get some.

Ren has a point even though not proven. Using the same argument the 2 or top of 7 piece could as easily be top of 4. That makes it 4 O'clock for image # assuming that's the hr hand. If 4 then that eye piece should fit the larger 4 piece on top.

I just hope if/when another casque or two are recovered, there's enough of the lids remaining to make out the time on the underside... Because otherwise, this is yet another little detail that's going to drive us crazy! And also... I don't think BP was much of an artist (in the painting and sculpting sense). JoEllen says she didn't paint the undersides of the lids. One wonders... who did the painting?

Unknown: Ren has a point even though not proven. Just to be clear, I am not knocking Matt or his efforts. As he said, he did the best he could with what he had to work with. What I'm saying is that his rendition is hardly conclusive IMO, and not something Brian is likely to use to guarantee that the time on the lid is 3 o'clock, if in fact that is what he said over on Facebook.

Choice wrote:: Ren has a point even though not proven. Using the same argument the 2 or top of 7 piece could as easily be top of 4. That makes it 4 O'clock for image # assuming that's the hr hand. If 4 then that eye piece should fit the larger 4 piece on top. You guys can take this or leave it. I will just say, You obviously have no idea what you are taking about when it comes to something like this... the statement.. " Using the same argument the 2 or top of 7 piece could as easily be top of 4. That makes it 4 O'clock for image # assuming that's the hr hand." is easy to make but patently ridiculous. sure it could easily be the top of the 4 - unfortunately if that were true it would require the piece with the 1 and the 2 to be moved out of bounds of the lid. Sure it could easily be the edge of the 7 but that means the mouth would be covered up as well as the hour hand would be coming in from the direction of the 9... heck it could be the tip of the 4 but in that case it would actually stick out of the side of the casque You are also missing the fact that I digitally trimmed the pieces so that we are only dealing with the painted surface.... I didn't just stick the pieces on where I liked them I rotated every piece and compared it to the chicago casque, the contstraints of the edge of the lid and the flat surface of the painted area as well as all the other material sticking out from the other pieces.... I worked on this for hours and hours. Am I wrong, maybe, I doubt it. I would love to see the pieces in detail, but I have learned what I needed to from this and shared my results. Why don't people want to share things? Hmmm I don't know probably because of reactions like Rennovator's...

Not criticising your work Matt, just offering an alternative view. The piece with 1 and 2 looks like chipped in an angle. The light color area could be the sheared edge with no color. If that's the case then the piece with the 12 O'clock hand may be the adjacent chipped part with top part of 4. That would fill in the eye part too. This all depends on if the two large pieces are chipped in an angle.

Unknown: Hmmm I don't know probably because of reactions like Rennovator's... What reaction is that Matt? I'd hate to be responsible for inhibiting the free flow of accurate information that moves this puzzle forward.

Choice wrote:: The piece with 1 and 2 looks like chipped in an angle. The light color area could be the sheared edge with no color. If that's the case then the piece with the 12 O'clock hand may be the adjacent chipped part with top part of 4. That would fill in the eye part too. This all depends on if the two large pieces are chipped in an angle. again please remember that you are only looking at the painted sections these parts are 3d an have thickness and width that is not shown here. Here we can see it cannot be the top of the 4 because it would interfere with the 1/2 piece the mouth piece and the eye piece.( if you look carefully you can see the tip of the 4 on the bottom of the 1/2 piece already) Here we can see it connot be the side of the 4 because then the painted piece would actually stick out into the unpainted lip of the casque Now if we look at piece 8 we can see the actual start of the number 7 -so I moved the chicago 7 to line up, then placed the 7 correctly based on the edge of the 7. (again there are edges beyond the paint on the pieces shown here that I have digitally removed. (which means the paint cannot simply fit together like a jigsaw puzzle.) so this shows it can't be part of the 7 because it covers up the mouth. also it really can't be in this position because of underlying parts of the 8 piece and the mouth piece. It just wouldn't fit here physically. lastly this would mean the arrow head is pointing at the top of the 7 and the hand comes from somewhere up around the 9 or 10 area.... Therefore... it shows 3:00

In furtherance of the discussion in the Verse 4 thread: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=725&start=90#p152965 - about the counting of the bricks being backwards/reversed - being hinted at by the names on the Greek Wall being in the reverse order as mentioned in the verse as well as the verse being in whole or in part being backwards in itself: I also believe that there is another hint at that in Image 4. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the 'face' and the 'back' parts are sketchy and could be easily dismissed as pareidolia. (I see you eyeballing me MaltedFalcon)....And I would agree. However, I think the "wards" portion is relatively solid. If present, there might be limited options as to what word is there and the reason for it - puzzle-wise. So I'm not prepared to dismiss as pareidolia or a coincidence/accident. My opinion only. Your mileage may vary...

Kang wrote:: In furtherance of the discussion in the Verse 4 thread: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=725&start=90#p152965 - about the counting of the bricks being backwards/reversed - being hinted at by the names on the Greek Wall being in the reverse order as mentioned in the verse as well as the verse being in whole or in part being backwards in itself: I also believe that there is another hint at that in Image 4. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the 'face' and the 'back' parts are sketchy and could be easily dismissed as pareidolia. (I see you eyeballing me MaltedFalcon)....And I would agree. However, I think the "wards" portion is relatively solid. If present, there might be limited options as to what word is there and the reason for it - puzzle-wise. So I'm not prepared to dismiss as pareidolia or a coincidence/accident. My opinion only. Your mileage may vary... Good you see that, cause if you look hard, it also says George Ward. or bruins ucla or Boise or any number of other fun words.

maltedfalcon wrote:: ...if you look hard, it also says George Ward or bruins ucla or Boise or any number of other fun words. If you see those fun words, I believe you and take your critique in good humor. However with all deference to George Ward, none of those words are known to have a role in how the puzzle was designed, nor would help someone figure out that the counting of the bricks was to be reversed. While the word 'backwards' would certainly be helpful with that. If it's there, it would add to what is known about the solved puzzles, to the possible benefit of the remaining ones. I posted so that all can consider and come to their own conclusion.

I've thought there was something special about Socrates, Pindar, Apelles. Perhaps an acrostic for S P A. Is it possible that is a state reference for narrowing down where this verse leads? S next to or to the left of PA. State next to Pennyslvania?

For Kang if you start at the place you see the building you are on the square in front of the cleveland transit tower follow that road (its one way) you can keep going in a circle or you can exit onto euclid stay on euclid until you see the sign for the Triangle this is plaza with buildings around it - The sign was shaped exactly like the triangle in the image. Turn left onto east blvd (thats just one turn) now go straight - the road does curve but you are just following it. unfortunately you cant do this anymore as they tore out the road and built a hospital but in 1980 East road curved around and you could easily stay on it. today before See that horse tail curve, follow that and with just one turn at the triangle you go straight from the transit building to the columns . That curve is East blvd the blvd that has the columns you are supposed to seek now once you get there - everything is backwards. you are on the wrong side of the wall. you need to walk there.

the sign for the triangle is gone but the place is still called the triangle just google cleveland and the triangle. intersection of ford and clevland that takes you straight to the columns (or at least it did)

Thanks for the information, maltedfalcon. Does anybody have a picture of this triangle sign?

I do not, but soon after cleveland was solved it was visible on google street view when did street view start? seeing it would have had to been post that date.

Closest I could find was 2007: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zz4vpkzcvqjs3 ... e.JPG?dl=0 I think this is the intersection. I could only find the text and no symbol. Lots can happen in 3 years. Was it on the building or on a sign? Now it's an art museum... The world may never know.

I'm just glad to know it ain't the symbol on the fountain at the base of terminal tower. That probably means the bell in the image isn't the famous bell sitting just next to that on the sidewalk in front of Old Stone Church either. Phew! I almost got all this wrong. Glad I got set straight.

phrabbott wrote:: Closest I could find was 2007: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zz4vpkzcvqjs3 ... e.JPG?dl=0 I think this is the intersection. I could only find the text and no symbol. Lots can happen in 3 years. Was it on the building or on a sign? Now it's an art museum... The world may never know. You could determine when the building was built, and see if it is even worth checking on what has been proffered.

maltedfalcon wrote:: the sign for the triangle is gone but the place is still called the triangle just google cleveland and the triangle. intersection of ford and clevland that takes you straight to the columns (or at least it did) Anybody taken the time to verify when this building was built yet? You could always search for when the land parcel was sold to build it here: https://myplace.cuyahogacounty.us/ Try searching for parcels 120-29-001 and 120-29-002. Doesn't seem to be there in 1979:

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I'm just glad to know it ain't the symbol on the fountain at the base of terminal tower. That probably means the bell in the image isn't the famous bell sitting just next to that on the sidewalk in front of Old Stone Church either. Phew! I almost got all this wrong. Glad I got set straight. That's actually a map symbol for a platform.

Choice wrote:: That's actually a map symbol for a platform. Dang. I was under the impression it was a Civil War Army Corp badge, along with the rest of the badges surrounding the Civil War memorial fountain. BTW - MF... did you find when The Triangle was built yet so we could determine if that was the sign?

Yeah I know. Way too complicated.

A platform with a symbol of platform on top of it? Just where the cask was found; hop on the platform at that corner? Yeah must be the AA, “Alcoholus Anonymous” symbol. JJP must’ve had one too many “Fockink Dry Gin”! (Quotes from page 122/123 of the book. Don’t report me! )

maltedfalcon wrote:: For Kang if you start at the place you see the building you are on the square in front of the cleveland transit tower follow that road (its one way) you can keep going in a circle or you can exit onto euclid stay on euclid until you see the sign for the Triangle this is plaza with buildings around it - The sign was shaped exactly like the triangle in the image. Turn left onto east blvd (thats just one turn) now go straight - the road does curve but you are just following it. unfortunately you cant do this anymore as they tore out the road and built a hospital but in 1980 East road curved around and you could easily stay on it. See that horse tail curve, follow that and with just one turn at the triangle you go straight from the transit building to the columns . That curve is East blvd the blvd that has the columns you are supposed to seek... MaltenFalcon, thank you for your reply and for moving conversation over to this thread Setting The Triangle - was it there or not question aside for a moment - I know you're applying your 'literal path' from iconic building all the way to dig spot theory here and while I'm on the fence on that, let's assume that is the case for this discussion. The path from the point the verse starts (for me) fits both image and verse clues better with an approach that comes from Liberty Blvd (Now MLK Dr) rather than East Blvd. And I don't think would necessarily disagree with your full path theory. "As the road curves" could just as easily be Parkgate Ave which would be just as good an image match to the centaur tail as well. However - with your proposed approach up East Blvd - assuming you are to hang a left into the Greek Gardens once you see the columns (you don't specify about that part) - there would be no way to see the image matches in the Italian wall (Arch w keystone, Lion/shell fountain). Those can ONLY be seen from Parkgate Ave (or the path to the feature that runs along it). To me, that is the best evidence that the approach is from Liberty Blvd (along with the Liberty image icon). However, even with your 'full path" theory, only one small tweak would be needed at the traffic circle in your pic to transition from East Blvd to Liberty Blvd. Any thoughts MaltedFalcon? Or anyone else?

If I told you where a casque was buried, would it matter what path you took to get there?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: If I told you where a casque was buried, would it matter what path you took to get there? If I buried 12 casques and DID NOT tell you where they were buried but instead encoded clues into 12 poems and 12 paintings that when correctly interpreted leads someone to a spot to dig one up - and two thus far been already found, and those clues appeared to have a beginning, an end and discrete points in between, would understanding how the clues as I intended them to be clues and whatever path exists from beginning to end for the two that were already solved be helpful in trying to understand how to interpret similar clues in the other puzzles and would that possibly lead to another one being found? Now THAT is the question. (As well as a run on sentence).

Kang wrote:: If I buried 12 casques and DID NOT tell you where they were buried but instead encoded clues into 12 poems and 12 paintings that when correctly interpreted leads someone to a spot to dig one up - and two thus far been already found, and those clues appeared to have a beginning, an end and discrete points in between, would understanding how the clues as I intended them to be clues and whatever path exists from beginning to end for the two that were already solved be helpful in trying to understand how to interpret similar clues in the other puzzles and would that possibly lead to another one being found? Now THAT is the question. (As well as a run on sentence). But that's what people have been doing for 20-30 years, and another has not been solved.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: But that's what people have been doing for 20-30 years, and another has not been solved. Yup. And if any of the remaining ones are recoverable, someone's going to get it right one of these tries and dig up another one. And It's highly likely that person will have done so by following a certain set of clues in a logical order (per their subjective interpretation of those clues). And I guarantee that person will be very happy. (And I will be happy for them - and ask them how they did it).

Kang wrote:: However, even with your 'full path" theory, only one small tweak would be needed at the traffic circle in your pic to transition from East Blvd to Liberty Blvd. yes true almost like you would think BP would stick something like a horsetail map in the image to keep you on track Yes I realize Liberty would be a more direct route to the casque location but.... Assuming a reversed verse, your first instruction is.... " For the search. Seek the columns To find casque's destination So East Blvd.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Assuming a reversed verse, your first instruction is.... " For the search - Seek the columns - To find casque's destination maltedfalcon wrote:: yes true almost like you would think BP would stick something like a horsetail map in the image to keep you on track Totally see your thinking here. And while I agree that certain things must be reversed with the verse, I think that "assuming a reversed verse" as in fully reversed linearly from end to beginning might be an assumption too far. If you are arguing that the entire verse must be reversed, then I would argue several things: First that the dig instructions would need to be the first lines (and thus last lines when reversed), which they are not. And that would mean that "Beneath two countries" and "As the road curves" would take place at the end of the verse instructions, which would run counter to your argument that the curved road is East Blvd traffic circle - and it doesn't fit for me - that the planter spot is "Beneath two countries." While Liberty Blvd for that clue would (to me). So, I believe it is a better fit if the verse is selectively reversed or in chunks. Agree with the thought, but have a different spot in mind. The road curves we are discussing are near identical in shape. So I think there's no objective evidence against either of them being incorrect. So a subjective thing it is, I guess... Would also like your thoughts on the Italian wall image matches. (Arch w keystone, lion/shell fountain). The only place one can see those is from Parkgate (specifically the path that runs along it up to that area). Why would those be in the painting if they could never been seen with an approach that comes from East Blvd? Wondering how this works into your path. You haven't said, so I don't want to assume anything. I appreciate your thoughts and insights MaltedFalcon. And appreciate this debate as one where reasonable folks think about other's idea in an effort to try and understand more about how BP intended the clues to work. And can ultimately have different opinions. Thank you. Any thoughts on the above?

Okay let me throw this out there since you asked directly I am not ready to defend the following theory it is going to take a lot of research and I won't be able to spend any time on it until July so far I only have chicago, Cleveland, SF, houston, and Milwaukee documented I suspect in one form or another Every Image/Verse combination - There are two separate specific routes that take you to the park It has been suggested to me that there is a way in and a way out. but I think it is simply a method of bi-angulating onto the proper park to be specific not only is there one path there are two in Cleveland the path goes down euclid to ford and east blvd The second path goes down st clair to Liberty past Park gate (MLK) so actually both horsetails work. as far as once you get there since I have never actually been on site at the greek garden - im not sure

MF- I've been there. Give me the gist of your idea and I'll try to help you flesh it out.

I don't want to interfere with your efforts to build a theory that applies to all casques (although I don't see why there should be one), but as I look at the picture and verse, I can only see clues that tell me "look from both sides". The verse alternates sentences that can only been understood from different sides of the wall; the picture shows architectural features that can only be seen from one side of the gardens or the other; and there is even a mixture of elements from the Italian and Greek gardens, as if the message was "cross the border, see how it looks from both sides, understand the situation from the point of view of the people on the other side". So I don't think it matters if you take one path or the other, if you arrive from one side or the other, since you need to consider both.

chevechercher wrote:: I don't want to interfere with your efforts to build a theory that applies to all casques (although I don't see why there should be one), but as I look at the picture and verse, I can only see clues that tell me "look from both sides". The verse alternates sentences that can only been understood from different sides of the wall; the picture shows architectural features that can only be seen from one side of the gardens or the other; and there is even a mixture of elements from the Italian and Greek gardens, as if the message was "cross the border, see how it looks from both sides, understand the situation from the point of view of the people on the other side". So I don't think it matters if you take one path or the other, if you arrive from one side or the other, since you need to consider both. This is an theory about how to get to the proper park not how to resolve the verse and not what to do once you get there.

What would he the minimum lines needed to hint the dig spot?

erexere wrote:: What would he the minimum lines needed to hint the dig spot? Socrates, Pindar, Apelles If we look at the wall and the names inscribed, it is a map or instructions to the dig spot. One line gives up the casque. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WIeUa0 ... sp=sharing

Thanks gman. Good to see you're still around.

Anyone have ideas as to why the centaurs fingers are so purposely jenky?

dosethree wrote:: Anyone have ideas as to why the centaurs fingers are so purposely jenky? rumor has it it matches the hand of a statue on the corner of St. Claire and Liberty. (MLK)

maltedfalcon wrote:: rumor has it it matches the hand of a statue on the corner of St. Claire and Liberty. (MLK) Not a rumor... something I shared with you a couple years back, MF. You should post that side by side so people can make up their own minds. They can also note the 1881.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Not a rumor... something I shared with you a couple years back, MF. You should post that side by side so people can make up their own minds. They can also note the 1881. That was you guys too? Damn.

burnstyle wrote:: That was you guys too? Damn. It was all us, burnstyle. All of it. All of it.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: They can also note the 1881. I’ll add that to my increasingly irritating list of 1881 “coincidences”.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Not a rumor... something I shared with you a couple years back, MF. use the word rumor to describe it without having to defend it as my theory. Although I do see it as totally valid.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Not a rumor... something I shared with you a couple years back, MF. You should post that side by side so people can make up their own minds. They can also note the 1881. Let's suppose that this is an actual reference and not a coincidence. The best concept I would have is that there are bookends, 1881 being this statue and 1442 being another reference point. Searching for 1442 yields not much, but what would be relatively easy is the Jews leaving Egypt in 1442 BCE. The Greek Garden is almost exactly halfway between the Romanian Garden where George Enescu sits and the Hebrew Garden, both of which existed in 1980.

I’m not sure if the 1881 reference that 421 made was pointed solely at the 1881 depicted in the image. There are a ton of 1881 coincidences throughout many of the puzzles. Cleveland coordinate and Mr. 3 knuckle’s statue. Boston Symphony Orchestra founded. Harvard Class of 1881 gate motto. Plaque of Twain’s 1881 speech on Rue Drummond in Montreal. Multiple Sutro 1881 references in SF. The list seems to go on and on. Some people call it a coincidentally charged rabbit hole. Others think there is something important that these 1881 connections tell us. I’m not sure of which one it really is. Search 1881 and look for White Rabbit’s posts. It’s an interesting read.

BINGO wrote:: I’m not sure if the 1881 reference that 421 made was pointed solely at the 1881 depicted in the image. There are a ton of 1881 coincidences throughout many of the puzzles. Cleveland coordinate and Mr. 3 knuckle’s statue. Boston Symphony Orchestra founded. Harvard Class of 1881 gate motto. Plaque of Twain’s 1881 speech on Rue Drummond in Montreal. Multiple Sutro 1881 references in SF. The list seems to go on and on. Some people call it a coincidentally charged rabbit hole. Others think there is something important that these 1881 connections tell us. I’m not sure of which one it really is. Search 1881 and look for White Rabbit’s posts. It’s an interesting read. Will do, thx.

gManTexas wrote:: Searching for 1442 yields not much... Au contraire mon frere, As I posted recently about coordinates of Persepolis in Image 8, coordinates 14/42 is smack in the middle of Italy where you have a bunch of Italy garden image matches. https://epsg.io/map#srs=4326&x=14.00000 ... er=streets

I think I may have found something. In the podcast for Chicago, they said the casque was found where “fence and fixture” make a right angle. In rhe painting, if you draw a line out to the right of where Chicago is in the outline of Illinois, you find a black semi-circle under the fence. I don’t know what this is, but if you look at Chcago as a fixture in the painting, the dark area could represent the dig spot. Anyone think this could be a visual key to pinpointing the others?

Guardian wrote:: I think I may have found something. In the podcast for Chicago, they said the casque was found where “fence and fixture” make a right angle. In rhe painting, if you draw a line out to the right of where Chicago is in the outline of Illinois, you find a black semi-circle under the fence. I don’t know what this is, but if you look at Chcago as a fixture in the painting, the dark area could represent the dig spot. Anyone think this could be a visual key to pinpointing the others? when you actually comparet the casque spot to the fence and fixture it wasn't a right angle, although it was lined up wiht the fence, not so much the fixture...

maltedfalcon wrote:: when you actually comparet the casque spot to the fence and fixture it wasn't a right angle, although it was lined up wiht the fence, not so much the fixture... The spot in the painting is off a little, though in the wrong direction.