Quest4Treasure Archives

This is the "Grant Park" pic.  I believe it falls under the following theme: May?(can't see a time) Emerald Lily of the Valley Celtic Theme "Brilliant as the eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald." Gee, it would be nice to know if Lilies of the Valley grow in Grant Park. Would anyone be able to find out?

Still trying to reverse engineer this puzzle.  Take a look at the indian statue.  Take a look at the shape underneath the horse...now, turn the P upside down.  Is it just me or does it read GPB.  The G is obvious, the P is on the post leading to the horse's belly and included in the B, and the B is quite obvious.  This statue is titled "The Bowman"..  Could we have (G)rant (P)ark (B)owman?

Unknown: Still trying to reverse engineer this puzzle.  Take a look at the indian statue.  Take a look at the shape underneath the horse...now, turn the P upside down.  Is it just me or does it read GPB.  The G is obvious, the P is on the post leading to the horse's belly and included in the B, and the B is quite obvious.  This statue is titled "The Bowman"..  Could we have (G)rant (P)ark (B)owman? I definitely see a GB, but I do not see the P.

Also notice the silouette of the Hancock building hanging from The ear on the left and near the ear on the right is a drawing from verticlly above the Large fountain in grant Park. My favorite though is the Chicago Bears C on his neck... I have a picture with these items noted on it if you want a copy send me an email and I will email you the picture I also have some arieal shots of grant park - the fountain the lincoln statue and the music pavillion behind the licoln statue. Matt

Fox's theory on latitude and longitude points to Chicago for this pic: 41 latitude by 87 longitude (both numbers appear both forward and backward in the windmill).

hmmm. i'm new to all of this, and have been trying to reverse engineer this one to get a feel for how the author was thinking. i didn't see the hancock building at all. what i saw was the chicago bull's head. turn the image upside down and look at that "earring" again. in addition, i've seen loads of stuff on the boards talking about the casque having been found in grant park. i know i'm new to this, but do we have absolute confirmation on the burial site? again, i have to tell you that i'm seeing something a little different. if i'm right then the lincoln statue in grant park was definitely a marker, but that wasn't the actual burial site. my guess is the actual burial site was a couple of blocks behind the statue, and it has been modified since the casque was unearthed. at the risk of sounding mysterioso: the word "hush" in the verse had relevance beyond rhyming...and there was more music in that area than an amphitheater. actually, if you look at loph's photo of the seated lincoln, the verse is absolutely accurate -- beyond his left shoulder is where i think the casque was buried, and you can see it in that photo. so...does anyone have confirmation about the actual burial site of the chicago casque???

I remember the article about the find, and I have several times walked through the treasure trail.

thanks for the reply! this is great -- i was hoping someone on this board had information about the actual burial site for the chicago casque! i saw the photos posted in another thread, and am wondering if anyone has confirmed that was the actual burial site? if so, and what did the phrase "ten by thirteen" reference in the verse?

i'm not positive but i think the 10x13 referred to a nearby fence.  is this right?

Or it could refer to the nearby corner of J(10)ackson and M(13)onroe.

I located the elusive Chicago Tribune article detailing the first find (in Grant Park). It is reproduced below. My apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere, but I could not find it.

Here are a few things we can learn from this article. First, the casque was clearly dug up - it is no longer there to be found. The finders knew where it was, and spent a lot of time and effort searching for it. After a few failed tries, they send photos to Mr. Preiss, who helpfully told them they were on the right track, and sent them a photo of the precise location. That enabled them to find the physical casque, dig it up, and redeem the key. Second, the second paragraph notes, "Preiss buried 12 ceramic casks in the far reaches of the 48 states ..." What about Canada? The finders got to keep the hand-painted ceramic casque, valued at $500 in 1983. So be careful when you dig! "M and B" does stand for Man and Beast, as johann has noted elsewhere, not Mozart and Beethoven as Mr. Preiss has said. It would be inappropriate to ask Preiss for helpful snapshots like the one he sent the finders in Chicago. The rules of the game have changed slightly, and we should respect that. The primary finders were Eric Gasiorowski and Bob Wrobel. David James should also be considered a finder, but was not on hand the day of the discovery. Danny Rosenbach, a friend, discovered the actual, physical casque. The article suggests that Gasiorowski, Wrobel, and James were considered the finders and were to split the find three ways. I did a little digging (figuratively speaking) and found an Eric Gasiorowski who seems to be about the right age: hxxp://www.jobpostings.net/Saturn/openingdoorsjan2005.cfm SearchBug.com lists two addresses for Eric Gasiorowski, one in Michigan and one in Cedarburg, Wisconsin ( very close to Mill-Walk-Key!), and the other in Birmingham, Michigan (a suburb of Detroit). There are a few listings elsewhere for "E. Gasiorowski." There are many, many Rob Wrobels and David Jameses out there. If we want to contact these guys, it will probably have to be through Eric Gasiorowski. We should be careful how this information is used. The finders do not need to be bombarded with e-mails, letters, phone calls, etc. However, I do think it would be appropriate to send them a single, collective, polite invitation to rejoin the hunt. Clearly their proven expertise could help locate the remaining casques.

GREAT WORK FINDING THIS ARTICLE AND THE ARTICLE POSTED IN "WHAT HAS BEEN FOUND" !!!  THANKS FOR SHARING BOTH.

Forest Blight, thank you!!!  You found what the Cleveland Plain Dealer couldn't find. It is a bit strange that they would not have found the casque without BP's help.  Maybe he was just trying to generate more interest in his book.  FYI, my buddy Siskel and I are going to try and contact BP about re-issuing the book now that we have this additional info, and now that A Treasure's Trove is almost over.

My pleasure! I also posted an article in the "what has been found" forum you might get a kick out of. By the way, when I was searching for these articles I ran across all kinds of references to "The Masquerade." Boy would I love to have been a part of that! Reissuing the book is an interesting idea, one with pros and cons. Our cozy little group would expand 1000-fold, I think, once all the trovers realize there is a 23-year-old treasure hunt still going on. But I don't think the idea is realistic. My thinking is that "The Secret" should not be reissued (despite BP's promise of a second edition), because some of the locations are (we suspect) inaccessible, dangerous, or just not there anymore. Also, the bulk of the book wouldn't be funny enough to sell to today's audiences. It barely sold 27,000 when it was in print, so I heard. However, I definitely think a new book should be written along the same lines, commissioning the same artists, but hiding 12 new casques in 12 new locations. After the success of ATT, a new "The Secret" would sell like hotcakes.

Forest, Any Luck trying to contact the chicago finders?

I haven't tried yet. I'm waiting on a consensus from you guys on whether or not it would be wise to. Want me to try and contact them? Unless I hear warnings to the contrary, I will attempt to do so on Sunday.

I guess I'm a little confused as to what we would be contacting them for?  Help on the unsolved puzzles?  More information about the Chicago find? (I thought the article described their search pretty well.)  Kind of interesting that BP provided them with the picture--but at the time he was trying to sell more books.  This book is well in the past for him--he has moved on to selling books by Ray Romano, Billy Crystal, and Jay Leno...

I definitely think you should try and contact them the more people we have working on this the funner it gets - and more people > mean more ideas and thats the way we're going to solve these Ive never read a newspaper article that got it "exactly" right - and I work for a big newspaper publisher So Id love to hear their story I bet they have no idea this is still going on and they'd get a big kick out of it. And I'd love to know why they thought there was one in colorado....

I think they would get a kick out of it, too. And I also would love to hear about the Colorado story. Can you imagine getting a letter like that 20+ years after you thought everyone had forgotten? I just sent an e-mail to Carlson Marketing Group asking for Mr. Gasiorowski's e-mail address. If they get back to me, I'll send him a note to see if he is really our guy. Failing that, I will send a letter to the two Eric Gasiorowskis I found on searchbug.com. Failing *that,* I'll write to the two E. Gasiorowskis. This is fun.

I'm all for contacting them.  If nothing else, getting them up to date on what we're doing would be cool. I also would be interested in knowing why Colorado.  Remeber all, we're 20 years late, they had the advantage of being on top of it. I would personally pay Mr. Preiss for a photo of the burial spot of the Houston casque just to stop digging holes in the zoo!! wilhouse

Well, no reply from Carlson Marketing Group yet. I'll wait another week.

No reply from Carlson Marketing Group, and it has been a month. Not even a courteous "we don't give out that kind of information" note. Time to enact Plan B...

Okay, Plan B (e-mailing Eric Gasiorowski) didn't work either. The message didn't bounce, so a mailbox must exist for the address I had. At this point, I think further efforts to contact him via snail mail might be construed as harrassment, so I will drop it.

David James and Bob Wrobel have run races together within the last couple of years.  See, for example: hxxp://cararuns.org/race_results/results04/cosleyrun5all.txt James is from Wheaton, Illinois.  Wrobel is from Winfield, Illinois.  The treasure was found in Chicago. Here are their phone numbers!  : hxxp://www.google.com/search?sa=X&oi=fwp&pb=f&q=%22david+james%22+wheaton+illinois hxxp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&pb=f&q=%22robert+wrobel%22+winfield+illinois&pb=f

Hey cool! I didn't even think to Google them together. Unless you want to, I will contact these guys and share what I find out.

Be my guest!  Please invite them to post on this bulletin board, and read all about our hunting.  You should also see if they can give us contact info on the third member of their group.

I am presently in St. Louis, but I travel to Chicago every few months.  Let me know if I can be of any help.

Unknown: Be my guest! I've sent letters to both parties (I didn't feel comfortable calling them out of the blue). I'll post if/when I get replies.

Since the Internet is the best place for arguing about stuff that doesn't matter.... Disclaimer #1: I'm not trying to be a jerk. Disclaimer #2: The question I'm asking does not matter one little bit. Question: Why does there exist the general belief that the Chicago jewel was an emerald, as opposed to a peridot? Point #1: It is clearly one or the other.  There are two images (5 and 11) showing green jewels, and there are only two green jewels in the litany -- emeralds and peridots. Point #2: I do not believe that Images 5 and 11 contain enough visual information for anyone to differentiate between an emerald (green) and a peridot (green).  I'm not a gemologist, but they look terribly close to me, and after looking at pictures of both on the internet, I'm pretty sure that I couldn't tell even if I were. Point #3: We know the emerald is Celtic and the peridot is Irish.  I believe that one goes to Boston and the other to Chicago.  Both cities are quite well known for both ethnicities, so I don't think that either can be described as arguably being a "sure thing". Point #4: The Litany of the Jewels describes the emerald as "Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk", but both Mr.5 and Miss 11 seem to have blue eyes in my book. Point #5: Page 29 puts the Celts in Massachussetts.  I believe that Image 11 is Boston, and if the association is correct, then Image 11 has the emerald. Point #6: The Chicago Tribune article from 8/9/83 refers to the Chicago jewel as an emerald, in the future tense. In the fourth paragraph, it reads "...will receive an emerald..." which means that as of the writing, they did not have it yet.  So why did they think it was an emerald?  On one hand, perhaps in their earlier communications with BP he had confirmed it to them.  We just can't tell this from the article.  On the other hand, maybe they weren't sure whether it was an emerald or a peridot, and just guessed.  We can't tell that, either. Points 1-4 are toss-ups.  Point 5 would indicate that 5 is the peridot.  Point 6 has the potential to be a confirmer for the emerald, but we can't tell from the article whether their prize was definitely the emerald or not. So is there any better evidence?  It seems to me that the 1983 article may be the best piece of information we have, but for the reasons above I'm not sure if it's definitive. My guts say that Image 11 looks more Celtic and that Image 5 looks more Italian.  But that's not really worth much, and I'm apparently the only one who believes that. What do ya'll think? Pine

Unknown: Question:  Why does there exist the general belief that the Chicago jewel was an emerald, as opposed to a peridot? I have a simple answer. Chicago is the emerald because emerald is the birthstone for May, and the Chicago image (Image 5) was the "May" theme (note the 5 warts). In support of this theory is the lily of the valley on the Image 5 guy's collar. Lily of the valley is the birthflower for May. By elimination, that means Image 11 has the peridot, the birthstone of August. Note the 8 gold notches on the globe support, signifying August, and the gladiolus, birthflower of August (the big pink flower is a gladiolus).

Some pictures of our Lady of the Lake. She faces west, just south of the Art Institute:

Some images of the Chicago Water Works, Water Tower, and Fire Department, taken last week. All are near each other.

From the Chicago Water Works, across the street from the Water Tower itself:

Our favorite fencepost...

I find it interesting that the hat on the fairy is the hat on the statue. that is what preiss did on the djinn for image 8 and the elf statue in the zoo - use the same cap. wilhouse

I've posted all my Chicago pictures at Webshots: hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/quantpsy/

hey, did someone smite me??? wilhouse

It looks that way; don't know why, though. I just applauded you, so maybe that will take off some of the sting.

wilhouse wrote:: hey, did someone smite me??? wilhouse huh.... ?

The little 'karma' ratings under your name. Other readers can 'applaud' or 'smite' you. Looks like someone else smote wilhouse when he wasn't looking (it wasn't me, I swear!).

I thought smite was what the Brits had for breakfast. ( If my Karma is too high then I must not be trying hard )

ahh, thanks for the explanation FB.  I obviously didnt smite him either...I didnt even know what you guys were talking about

"Smite as well face it, we're addicted to.......the Secret"

Speak for yourself. I can quit any time I want to .

"Smite me once, do I not dig?"

"Once smitten, twice shy, baby".... Looking for my first smite here!

Smite be time to stop this. wilhouse

Your karma ran over my dogma. Smite be time to get back to the hunt... I'm fascinated by Forest_Blight trips returning to the site of the two found casques.  I believe that Priess laid a clear path of clues from a map of the US, down to the specific location where he dug.  I think that both found casques in some way short-circuted this path.  For example, the internet search for the Greek names short-circuited the clue path to the Cleveland casque at the Greek Cultural Garden. This is my real purpose for the wiki site, to put the known clues in order.  Maybe we can usehow the known clues work to analyze the remaining 10. I am trying to pull together the specific map hints, and the "architectural landmark" clues that put you in the vicinity.  My gut instinct tells me that Preiss had a limiited number of "source documents" such as the National Register of Historic Places or USGS topographic maps which he used to set up the puzzle.  I would imagine that he had some type of map atlas of the US, showing all of his 12 cities.  Otherwise, how would he have planned his approach? Sorry if this is off topic for Image 5, but our puns put me on my soapbox. AnotherDoth

I'll present a contrary view, because that's what I do. I think it's also possible that Preiss did plan some locations to coincide with his immigration theme, but for others (Milwaukee? Cleveland?) he simply took advantage of business trips he had been planning anyway, then found a convenient park or location once he got there, took plenty of pictures, and returned home. Later he could write the verses and organize his photographs at leisure. There doesn't have to be a master plan linking all the casques. It would be nice if true, but maybe the product of wishful thinking. Have you read the solution guide to A Treasure's Trove ? Stadther and his wife simply drove around the country as fast as they could, stopping in at random parks along the way to hide tokens. That's it - no grand scheme, no master plan, no atlas... they just wanted to spread the tokens around the country. I also never visited the Cleveland site, but I hope to!

Except that I believe there was a grand prize of some amount of money offered when the book came out.  This indicates that the smaller puzzles lead to some overall solve.  Preiss indicated that this money was no longer available--only the individual gems.

I have seen no mention of this anywhere. Can you elaborate?

I have recollection of this as well.... but nothing in writing. I believe that is what the title is referring to... as well as the Fair People and the story attached. Casques Keys Gems Immigrants Verses Images *makes the head hurt*

I have read the Secret cover to cover and there is no mention of any grand puzzle or prize other than what you get for redeeming a casque. wilhouse

Maybe there's a sub-poem hidden in the table of contents

When I looked back for the source of my thinking that there is a grand prize, I found that the old armchair treasure hunt site indicated that there was a rumor about a cash prize.  It is not in the book--don't know if it could have been in the newspaper advertising that Preiss had his wife do as part of the PR for the book. I also based my assumption about the grand prize on the poem in the book, specifically: "Each jewel in its weird-wrought casque, Gift of the Viking craftsmen Elves. Wonder and glory thirteen-fold: These are the treasures the Fair Folk bring." Seems to indicate an overall 13th casque--perhaps solved by information from the 12 images/verses.

The 13th "treasure" is the casque itself, no 13th jewel. I think this has come up before.

FB--I disagree.

See The Litany of the Jewels , pp. 20-21. The poem is 30 lines long. After a 2-line introduction, BP devotes exactly two lines to each of the 13 treasures and then wraps up with 2 closing lines. For example, Peridot of old Italy: / Antique, and olivine, and rich are the two lines for Italy's peridot. In the same vein, Each jewel in its weird-wrought casque, / Gift of the Viking craftsmen Elves are the two lines for the 13th "treasure." Following this immediately, he says Wonder and glory thirteen-fold / These are the treasures the Fair Folk bring . It's clear that the casque itself is considered the thirteenth treasure. They really are quite nice, from what I hear, and probably worth a lot intact.

I will add that on p. 20 BP says, "When the Thirteen Nations of the Fair People came to the New Found Land, twelve tribes brought with them their chief pride and treasure: a gem of the Old World... The Elvish folk of Scandia provided the uncanny casques in which the jewels were kept."

I too agree whole heartedly...... the 13th treasure by the Vikes are the casques that the jewels were buried in...nothing more, nothing less. Now is not the time to get off tangent on a wild goose chase.  We have found the 2nd casque after remaining hidden for 20 plus years when these threads were begun....and we are closing in on a few more.  Lets stay focussed guys

Hey all, This post covers multiple verses (1, 3, 7, 12) and multiple pictures (5, 6, 7, 8 ).  There doesn't seem to be just one thread that was appropriate for this kind of post so I just posted it in all 8 threads.  So if you have read this post once you don't have to read the other 7 as they are all the same. Socrates, Pindar, Apelles Free speech, couplet, birch To find casque’s destination (Verse 4) (Lines 10, 11, 12) The word birch rhymes with verse so I think the line is supposed to read FREE VERSE, COUPLET.  Now separate the initial letters of each couplet that rhymes from the initial letters of the free verse(i.e. the lines that don’t rhyme).  You can do this for all the verses(although some of them are all free verse with no lines that rhyme), however, for reasons that I will make clear below I think the only verses that matter here are Verses 1, 3, 7, and 12.  In all the verses below I have highlighted the lines that rhyme. I will start with Verse 12 as we already know the answer for that one. Where M and B are set in stone And to Congress, R is known L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks’ Treasure holder The end of ten by thirteen Is your clue Fence and fixture Central too For finding jewel casque Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. So you end up with: WABTICBH which when you rearrange the letters and use the B’s as blank spaces between the words you get: CHI B WA B T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the B’s - Chicago Water Tower.  As we all know this is the tower in Picture 5.  This also explains the use of the word Hush in the verse, BP needed a word that started with H and rhymed with Brush. On to Verse 1 Fortress north Cold as glass Friendship south Take your task To the number Nine eight two Through the wood No lion fears In the sky the water veers Small of scale Step across Perspective should not be lost In the center of four alike Small, split, Three winged and slight What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight Falls gently In December night Looking back from treasure ground There’s the spout! A whistle sounds. So you end up with: NISPOILA which when you rearrange the letters and use the I’s as blank spaces between the words you get: NO I S I PLA or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the I’s – New Orleans Spanish Plaza.  And there is a Spanish Plaza in New Orleans. On to Verse 3 If Thucydides is North of Xenophon Take five steps In the area of his direction A green tower of lights In the middle section Near those Who pass the coliseum With metal walls Face the water Your back to the stairs Feel at home All the letters Are here to see Eighteenth day Twelfth hour Lit by lamplight In truth, be free. This time use the letters that begin the free verse lines: INTANWWFYFAETL which when you rearrange the letters and use the extra WFA as blank spaces between the words you get: FT W WAYNE F LIN A T or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the WFA – Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower.  And there is a Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Indiana built in 1929. And finally Verse 7 At stone wall’s door The air smells sweet Not far away High posts are three Education and Justice For all to see Sounds from the sky Near ace is high Running north, but first across In jewel’s direction Is an object Of Twain’s attention Giant Pole Giant step To the place The casque is kept. I first started anagramming this one using the same method of separating the letters that I used above and ended up with some wrong answers that wilhouse pointed out.  So I think for this one you anagram all the letters together: ATNHEFSNRIIOGGTT which when you rearrange the letters and use the G’s as blank spaces between the words you get HST G NATION G FRET or filling in the letters left out of the abbreviations and removing the G’s – Houston National Forest.  This one didn’t anagram to my satisfaction as you end up with an extra I but there is a Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Now as cool as all that was this is the really cool part and the reason that I think that this particular solution only deals with the above 4 verses.  Going back to verse 4 and using the words Socrates, Pindar, Apelles, birch along with information that we already have from the pictures(i.e. the latitudes and longitudes) you can as BP put it, “wed one picture with one verse.” Birch = 5 letters, picture 5 we know is Chicago goes with verse 12 which gives us Chicago Water Tower. Apelles = 7 letters, picture 7 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is New Orleans and verse 1 gives us New Orleans Spanish Plaza. Socrates = 8 letters, picture 8 we are pretty sure from the longitude and latitude is Houston and verse 7 gives us Sam Houston National Forest. (sort of) Pindar = 6 letters, by process of elimination picture 6 goes with verse 3 which gives us Ft. Wayne Lincoln Tower. So to sum up. Verse 1 goes with Picture 7 and give us a starting location of Spanish Plaza in New Orleans Verse 3 goes with Picture 6 and gives us a starting location of Lincoln Tower in Ft. Wayne Verse 7 goes with Picture 8 and gives us a starting location of Sam Houston National Forest in Houston. Verse 12 goes with Picture 5 and gives us a starting location of the Water Tower in Chicago. Just some further thoughts that might not lead to anything but are rattling around in my head so I will throw them out for your consideration.  Two of the verses (9 and 11) are all free verse, nothing rhymes but there are two additional verses that do follow the free verse, couplet pattern. The first comes right before the pictures and second right after the pictures.  It is possible that some information is hidden in these two extra verses. Also if you like the idea of the number of the letters in a word indicating a picture(or a verse) then you might find this interesting.  There is only on significant instance of a one letter word in all of the verses(I know that there are various A’s in the verses but I said significant) and that is the v in verse 10.  In addition there is only one 12-letter word in all of the verses, remuneration.  I know that wonderstone’s is also 12 letters but I don’t count that one because you need to add the possessive s in order to get to 12. digger7

Just curious if anyone familiar can confirm a Humboldt park stables resemblance for just a section of roof dormers and spire?  It's iconic, not so much as the water tower, but a little something to go on, still leading to the water tower and on to Grant Park.

Just looking for answers.  The LotJ suggests there's a turquiose somewhere having to do with France.  It can be argued that Chicago has to do with cultures other than France, but it can't be argued that it doesn't have anything to do with France.  My main concern is with the word, Chicago "town founded in 1833, named from a Canadian French form of an Algonquian word".  The fact that an emerald was given to the finders but also that the sapphire was given to Cleveland's finder throws additional confusion into the mix.  The jewel in the image looks as much like an emerald as the jewel in image 11.  The large swath of turquise coloration on the giant's hat is probably my most compelling evidence that this portion of the LotJ may fit this site.  Image 8 uses a fair amount of turquise in the coloring of the horizon, but the red jewel in the image as well as its "Arabesque" style convince me that it is probably not the home of the turquoise jewel. I read that maypoles have something to do with Midsummer's Day.  Something about this maypole image from wikipedia reminds me of image 5 as well.

Lily of the Valley flower--fifth month Five warts on the face--fifth month May--fifth month Emerald--birthstone for the fifth month It is an emerald!

Thanks for dropping in Pickwick, this is just beginning to get interesting. You've just stated what might be the oldest accepted paradigms for this treasure hunt.  I am challenging it. Are the months confirmed by some external evidence beyond their association to the type of gemstone?  I don't believe the numerological type associations are really strong enough.  Counting things may be useful at times but what is there to really confirm that the number of warts is absolutely essential as a clue to tell us a month.  Do we really need to know the number 5 just to say the big green jewel earing is an emerald or that M and B are set in stone at the music hall?  I could probably phrase that question differently but you get my drift.  You do see that image 11 has a green stone as well?  Process of elimation may be useful in telling us it must be one of the other green type gems, turquoise (French), aquamarine (Greek), or peridot (Italian). We should all be most confortable with the aquamarine belonging to image 4 even though Egbert got the sapphire (clearly a mistake!) which should belong to image 6, since the jewel is drawn with an asterism specific to that of a star sapphire. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Star-Saphire.jpg image 7 shows no gem so it's a bit of a wildcard.  We would think it's surely New Orleans, and so it would follow best to select the turquoise which is French, but there's a slight chance it could be the Italian peridot since Napoleon, though also a French association, may be considered a strong candidate for Italy given his family heritage and his being crowned King of Italy during his attempt to merge its domain with France.  Suffice it to say, New Orleans isn't just rich in French culture.  The more I talk of Italy, the more I recall Cleveland for having the Italian Gardens just next to the Grecean Garden, but I'm still not going to stretch things that far. Image 11 is pretty much dead on for a Celtic origin with the large front panel on the dress and the red hair.  Image 5 has a small portion of Celtic pattern down at the bottom of the page.  That may make sense given the Middsummer clue in the LotJ since it ties in directly with Celtic history. I'm just rambling at this point...it's a bit late.  I'm leaning towards New Orleans as the peridot.  Boston is the emerald.  Chicago was the turquoise.  Cleveland was the aquamarine.  Huston is ruby.  Corbett is sapphire.  Vancouver B.C. is opal.  Milwaukee is amethyst.  San Franciso is the golden pearl.  San Juan Island is the blue topaz.  Cape Romaine is the diamond.  Outerbanks is the garnet.

erexere wrote:: The large swath of turquise coloration on the giant's hat is probably my most compelling evidence that this portion of the LotJ may fit this site. a Blue color scheme and highlights (including the same turquoise) are found in a lot of the pictures, Its compelling evidence that they coordinated a color palette for the book.

maltedfalcon wrote:: a Blue color scheme and highlights (including the same turquoise) are found in a lot of the pictures, Its compelling evidence that they coordinated a color palette for the book. True, but you understand the point is its one thing to suggest use of color as far as the ambiguities are concerned where the blue or turquoise color choice is more assignable to a purpose than counting things and saying that the number five = an emerald?  What are you're thoughts on the turquoise jewel now that you're engaging the topic? Maltedfalcon, you've always very keen in your points.  Why do you seem so lackluster in your activity these days?  It would be great if you would take my advice and dig next to thwt bench in San Francisco.

Isn't the stone in P7 the turquoise -- the same image that has the loups-garoux (French werewolf) claw also mentioned and pictured on p. 13? "Turquoise the Fays of France keep: stone Rare as a blue midsummer's day."

I'm not arguing that New Orleans isn't French.  Just don't ignore the Italian connection.  I thought I went into those details about Napoleon, the Louisiana Purchase and his being King of Italy.

Image 7 is absolutely a turquoise. (Half-moon shape under the starry sky and above the word Preservation.) Twelve-December-Turquoise-done.

"M and B are set in stone" could still be the Spearman and Bowman (man and beast) statues at the entrance to Grant Park because even though they were cast in bronze, the statues are set in granite (stone). They flank both sides of Congress and sit directly across from R, which is Roosevelt University on the corner of Congress and Michigan Ave. This combination of clues in just the first two lines of verse 12 describe a very distinctive, iconic and focused area. I lived there for ten years and regularly frequented this park. It is no more complicated than that. Actually going to the locations is the way to narrow the search and solve what is still solvable. Let's listen to the people on the ground, the ones visiting these parks. They can see what we can't see. If you can, visit possible locations yourself. Take notes, take pictures. Get out there, have fun!

pickwick wrote:: Image 7 is absolutely a turquoise. (Half-moon shape under the starry sky and above the word Preservation.) Twelve-December-Turquoise-done. Oh! I see it now, thanks pickwick!  My eyes missed that this whole time.  I'd say that's a turquoise for sure! Now that leaves some explaing as to why image 11 and image 5 both look like emeralds.

Unknown: Chicago has one of the largest concentrations of Italian Americans in the US, with more than 500,000 living in the metropolitan area.[15] Chicago has the third largest Italian American population in the United States, behind only New York and Philadelphia. Chicago's Italian community has historically been based along the Taylor Street and Grand Avenue corridors on the West Side of the city. There are also significant Italian populations scattered throughout the city and surrounding suburbs. I've been looking at ethnic demographics from 1980.  Clearly the Italian population was significant in some respects.  I read this in the wiki which looked hopeful at first, but I'm not convinced: ...not finding any Benito Mussolini monuments set in stone near Grant Park anyways.

Cook County Illinois One of my theories is that the artist in addition to concealing the outline of the state, also used a more local map outline such as a county boundary. So I tried it on Image 5 and Chicago is in the Cook County. If inverted, the outline matches the drawing of the towers at the upper part of the image as shown below. To be pedantic, the lower right tower should be more out to the right but this would spoil the drawing. Within Cook County is a smaller township called Evanston and this has boundaries within it which look very similar to the windmill!

hxxp://www.mappery.com/map-of/Evanston-City-Map can you see a windmill?

Has anyone ever noted that the area adjacent to the casque location in Grant Park is Daley Bicentennial Plaza? hxxp://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/park ... ial-Plaza/

Damn...now I'm hooked on this '76 conspiracy.

I mean, we can't prove anything, especially since until someone finds a casque in Louis Armstrong Park or proves it's near/a stop on the way it may have no connection to the New Orleans puzzle. I think it's neat, and I think that in 1981 the bicentennial was fresh in everyone's mind and is likely information that would be easy to find in visitor's guides, booklets, newspapers, etc. There's the 76 trail in Milwaukee of course (the Oak Leaf Trail now, not our Step on Nature), the idea that the "grand 200" could be related to the bicentennial, my Boston area which was the site of our Bicentennial stuff, this in Grant Park, etc. But deep down in the part of me that's a little bit crazy, I want it to be true

Theres the date of publication for Abroad in America and also a three volume set of Presidential speeches, both in 76.

I know this is this image 5 thread, but... Is it Expo 67? Is it a Capricorn? Or is it a Capricorn and a '76? I don't subscribe, but go wild.

The famed Canadian bicentennial?

Xieish wrote:: The famed Canadian bicentennial? Because Terry Fox said so. Speaking of legeaters.

Don't forget the Spirit of '76.

Okay, I'll bite. How does the Cleveland solution relate to the Bicentennial?

I don't think it does. JJP suggested the location, which is also why I think the Cleveland puzzle involves a lot less walking around. It was 'started' with a solution in mind. No research, tourist guides, or Preiss methodologies involved.

Egbert wrote:: Okay, I'll bite. How does the Cleveland solution relate to the Bicentennial? image of the liberty bell - was one of the bicentennial's big symbols

Liberty Bell works for me. Now we need to extend our theory to area51.

For what it's worth I don't agree with that. I mean, maybe. But I don't think it's some sort of secret code to crack these puzzles, I just think it's a theme that runs through many of them, very possibly because of the reasons I stated above (very big event, fresh in everyone's mind, visitor's guides, etc.)

Xieish wrote:: For what it's worth I don't agree with that. I mean, maybe. But I don't think it's some sort of secret code to crack these puzzles, I just think it's a theme that runs through many of them, very possibly because of the reasons I stated above (very big event, fresh in everyone's mind, visitor's guides, etc.) I totally agree with you, the theme if it is actually present is most probably a red herring.

Does anyone have a good interpretation for the symbol hanging near the Image 5 fellow's left ear? There was some talk a few years earlier on this thread that this might have something to do with a fountain in Grant Park. Is that still the prevailing theory? Are we talking about Buckingham fountain? The way those white lines cross makes me wonder if this is meant as a compass in some way.

I think it's a manhole cover.

It sure looks like an aerial of Buckingham Fountain in terms of general shape, and the fountain is adjacent to the treasure ground... but I don't know how you'd get the Google Maps shot of the fountain in the 80s.

Xieish wrote:: but I don't know how you'd get the Google Maps shot of the fountain in the 80s. Well you didn't- if you wanted aerial photographs you went down to the local US Geological Survey office (every city had one) and you checked out (like a lending library) the photograph of the piece of land you were interested in. there were 3 levels of photos, 2500 feet, 7500 feet and 10,000 feet These were copies of the photos that the US geological survey used to create the topographical maps of the united states. In a way they were more advanced then Google maps, in that you could grab two from overlapping airplane passes and use steroptican viewer to look at the images in 3D. and for a long long time, the resolution of the photos easily was better than anything online. but it wasn't in color and most of the photos were at least 20 years old, they did not update them often. however , I believe he didn't do that I believe he took a photo of the fountain from one side on the ground and then JJP using that photo made his best guess at what the aerial view would have looked like the white lines representing fountain spray. In the past it was "oh yeah! that's Buckingham fountain!" only now with google's easily obtained views people are thinking, hmmm that's not an exact match...

Oregonian wrote:: Does anyone have a good interpretation for the symbol hanging near the Image 5 fellow's left ear? forest_blight wrote:: So, I was strolling around Chicago the other day on a family trip (but by myself for the moment) and happened to spy this only a couple of blocks from the treasure ground: It's not an exact match, but pretty close? It is the marquee on the Target at 1 S. State Street. Here is the location, and I placed a "target" where the treasure was found: You can read about the building, and see a better picture of the marquee, here: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson,_Pirie,_Scott_and_Company_Building edit: fixed link

Whoa - That's really an outstanding match for the symbol! Thanks WhiteRabbit (and Forest Blight)! Somehow I didn't even know about that other thread for the Chicago treasure. Now I'll need to go read through all of those other posts to see what else I've missed.

It has similarities, and it's better then other matches,if it were on michigan I would say yes. or if you could see it from the treasure ground. but with the fact its not and its opposite of the way the hunt routes you I would say its just a cooincidence and not a match

Okay FB, I'll see you one good match for the design and raise you a better one! Check this out: It's a piece of the terracotta ornamentation that was once on the exterior of the Carson, Pirie, Scott and Company Building , the same building where FB took his picture. The ornamentation has now been removed and I only found the picture because in 2010 this piece was on display at the Chicago Cultural Center . But I'll bet this piece was either on the building or on display somewhere else in 1981. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter where Preiss saw it. The design appears to be a hint toward Louis Sullivan and the architecture of downtown Chicago.

Is it a Celtic symbol?

Fantastic work Blight and Oregon!

Oh that's just wonderful! Good find!!

I just can't get over this -- wow! Coolest thing since that "leg-eater" lamp was found in Montreal. This is more evidence that matches (like the lamp) can be *exact* -- remember how sure a lot of people were that this design represented the fountain? That was forcing a fit -- this is the kind of thing we ought to be looking for. Too bad it's for a casque that has already been located. Historic Google street view shows that the building facade was under renovation for years, at least as far back as 2007. My guess is that these blocks came from the first floor exterior, where they would have been practically eye-level with Preiss as he walked by. The motif still appears all over the ironwork. The architect was Louis H. Sullivan. There are still several other Sullivan buildings standing in Chicago -- is it possible that motif appears on another? Part of it appears on the facade of the James Charnley Residence. Interestingly, one of the Sullivan buildings is the auditorium building of Roosevelt University, right on Michigan near the treasure site (...to Congress, R is known). Like that quote from "Pierre," this reference was extremely obscure and hard to spot. We must be vigilant, people!

Hey folks, How sure are we about the exact location of the spot where the Chicago casque was found? We've all seen this photo several times now. It shows a spot in Grant Park northwest of the seated Lincoln and just south of Jackson Drive. This is the spot described in the Chicago Tribune article of 8/9/83, which says that the treasure was found "a few feet from a cement retaining wall that runs next to Jackson Drive and close to a link fence that keeps the bums off the railroad tracks." The problem is that the spot shown in the photo is west of the footpath that runs down through the park from Jackson Drive. But we know from the verse that the casque should be where a row of 10 trees in a line meets a row of 13 trees in a line. As this aerial photo from 2002 seems to show, the trees in the park are only planted in straight rows on the east side of that footpath. So I'm just starting to wonder if maybe we've been thinking about the wrong spot. Do we have any solid evidence about where the casque was found? By "solid evidence" I mean either A) the photo that Preiss sent to the guys in Chicago, or B) a photo taken at the time the casque was found, or C) the solid recollections of at least two people who were there at the time. The article in the Tribune says that the group of people who were there when the casque was found included "[Bob] Wrobel, [Eric] Gasiorowski, his mother and sister, some neighbors, a photographer and a lookout." It's really hard for me to imagine that they brought a photographer but then didn't get a group shot by the hole when the casque was found. So where is that group photo? If anyone has a copy or can get one, please post it so we can all take a look. It could be a big clue.

The thing is, it seems pretty clear that the Chicago search was meant to use a 10x13 grid of trees. There's no way that the area to the west of the path would match that description, but the area to the east of the path is perfect. If I'm counting correctly, the grid on the east side is 14 trees from east to west and at least 12 trees from north to south. To see 13 trees in a row, one could stand on either the east end or the west end of the grid, but the verse takes care of that ambiguity by telling us to go left (west) from the Lincoln statue. Of course, the only way to find a perfect intersection of row and column in the grid would be if a tree was missing. At that spot, one would be in line with the rest of the grid system. I think that's what the pattern of warts on the dwarf's cheek is meant to tell us. So then it's just a matter of finding the missing tree that matches "The end of ten by thirteen." It could be the corner of a 10x13 grid (in which case, one would see 9 trees in one direction and 12 in the other) or it could be the corner of an 11x14 grid (in which case, one would see 10 trees in one direction and 13 in the other). I don't think Preiss worried about a misinterpretation because it would be obvious which tree was missing. Do we have anyone in Chicago on this forum? I'd like to know whether there's a missing tree in either spot that I've marked with a red circle above. I'd also like to know whether the gray line through the row of trees and the empty spot intersects one of those distinctive fence posts above the train tracks. That would at least help us know whether the sites I've marked with red circles should be considered possibilities.

I think its 10 paces by 13 paces, making a rectangle that suits the fence and fixture locations. "In the middle too" Makes sense to me in one of two ways, either it means in the middle of the rectangle or the pacing from point A to point B results in the exact middle of two points that are very distinct, such as the two nearest trees or light fixtures. I havent been to the site, and things have clearly changed in significant detail over the years, so this is just a theory.

Oregonian wrote:: Of course, the only way to find a perfect intersection of row and column in the grid would be if a tree was missing. At that spot, one would be in line with the rest of the grid system. I think that's what the pattern of warts on the dwarf's cheek is meant to tell us. So then it's just a matter of finding the missing tree that matches "The end of ten by thirteen." It could be the corner of a 10x13 grid (in which case, one would see 9 trees in one direction and 12 in the other) or it could be the corner of an 11x14 grid (in which case, one would see 10 trees in one direction and 13 in the other). Didn't Tenbythirteen or shadowrunner confirm that the tree there at the end (I assume what would be the corner) was actually not there when they dug up the casque? Edit: Have you checked through the "Chicago Treasure" thread? Discussion on the missing tree is here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=5050&start=60#p96261

maltedfalcon wrote:: There was a row of 10 trees and 90 degrees off those trees was a row of 13 trees the casque was at the intersection of the two lines where there was a "missing" tree" X * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Malted nailed it. This was what I always took as being the answer to "The end of ten by thirteen..."

Yes, I've read through the other thread. But where would the "X" on MF's map appear on the aerial photo? The trees to the west of the path don't seem to be planted in a straight line (and it also looks like there are more than 10 of them). The 10x13 grid almost seems like it has to be on the eastern side of the path. And to get 10 north-south trees in a row, one would almost have to start counting at Jackson and go south.

Oregonian wrote:: Yes, I've read through the other thread. But where would the "X" on MF's map appear on the aerial photo? The trees to the west of the path don't seem to be planted in a straight line (and it also looks like there are more than 10 of them). The 10x13 grid almost seems like it has to be on the eastern side of the path. And to get 10 north-south trees in a row, one would almost have to start counting at Jackson and go south. what you are missing is, you are trying to map it out with the current trees. those are not the trees and pattern that was there then. sometime between the late 80s and early 90s , there was much grounds renovation. many tree plantings and removals. for instance the tree in the picture that shows the fence and fixture. that is there now, was not there, the last time I visited the site. The fixture you were asking about was the box on the wall. and to answer another of your questions, yes we know that was the location of the casque, from spending lots of time asking questions of the people that found it.

Here's a photo that might help make the discussion more clear. This is taken looking south along the footpath from Jackson Drive. As you can see, the trees on the left (east of the footpath) are in a regular grid system. The trees on the right (west of the footpath)... meh, not so much. You could argue that they are in line, but it wouldn't be a particularly straight one. And those big ones were definitely there in 1981. This photo omits the first two trees on the left, before the lamppost. If you count south from here, you can see that there is a lamp (a "fixture"!) beside the 11th tree. So if you went over one row to the left from that lamp post, you might be in a position to see 10 trees in one direction (north) and 13 in the other (east). What this picture can't tell us is whether there is (or was) a gap in the trees right there or whether there is one of those fenceposts off to the right (west) that would be in line with the trees and lamp. (Anyone in Chicago want to go check?) Don't get me wrong, I'd still say the odds are about 60/40 that the standard assumption about the placement of the casque is correct. It would be pretty shocking for that mistake to go undiscovered for so long. But 60% confidence isn't enough to pass peer review. There's enough doubt about the placement that I'd still like to see those original photos from 1983. Either way, I'm fairly sure that the warts on the dwarf's face are meant as a map.

Oregonian wrote:: Don't get me wrong, I'd still say the odds are about 60/40 that the standard assumption about the placement of the casque is correct. It would be pretty shocking for that mistake to go undiscovered for so long. But 60% confidence isn't enough to pass peer review. There's enough doubt about the placement that I'd still like to see those original photos from 1983. The odds are 100% as are the odds that image 5 goes with chicago. on your wiki you have the quote "It is possible (if unlikely) that this image is meant to be used with Verse 3 to find the casque in Boston." I realize you have come late to the search, but if we have to stop every time somebody new comes along and explain all the original research, we will bog down at get nowhere. Just to clarify for you, we did not know the exact location until the people from chicago came on to the board and walked us through it. at the time all we knew was Grant Park, nobody had an exact solution. So the location by the wall and by the fence is per them.

Oregonian wrote:: I've read through the other thread Unknown: If you search for Shadowrunner's old posts, you'll find various threads like, eg, "Chicago walk thru" ...

Oh God...the Chicago finders were all gung hole. They practically dredged that area of the park. I think the light fixtures had some part in the exactness, but the observation was never made in connection with the final dig spot. Id like a marker to be placed in the exact spot and then the whole area photgraphed from all angles.

Not much evidence of a straight line of trees west of the walking path in either 1973 or 2002:

might have looked different if you were looking at trunks rather then tree-tops but the bottom line is the casque was found in that corner near the wall and fence. We have that from multiple people who were there.

Unknown: But we know from the verse that the casque should be (near) where a row of 10 trees in a line meets a row of 13 trees in a line. There, I fixed it for you. That particular line in the verse is, IMO, just a treasure ground confirmer, and not the dig spot confirmer. I know you think that each image gives us a precise dig spot, but ask yourself this question: if it were true for Chicago, why did Preiss feel the need to help the treasure hunters find the exact spot? And having established the precedent, why didn't he help other treasure hunters in the same manner? Personally, I find it hard to believe that of all the people who contacted Preiss in the early years, this was the only group who came close. Yet, to our knowledge, they are the only group who received this level of assistance from Preiss. There are a lot of possible explanations, but the logical inconsistency has always bothered me. And it's one of the main reasons that I personally think that the puzzle as a whole is not as precise and tight as others here assume it to be, time and change notwithstanding.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: if it were true for Chicago, why did Preiss feel the need to help the treasure hunters find the exact spot? And having established the precedent, why didn't he help other treasure hunters in the same manner? Oh the answer to that is simple and well known. We asked that question and resolved the answer satisfactorily. First and foremost BP was a marketing guy. The Secret, a Treasure Hunt had been released over a year before, and sales had dropped off to nothing, nobody was in making any progress on any of the hunts. BP himself said that he was surprised since he had thought that all the casques would be found witihin the first year or so... and then he would capitalize on this interest by releasing a sequel This lack of news/interest finds, made the prospects of a sequel poor. In a last ditch effort to revive interest in the hunt (and therefore make the book more marketable) he chose from one of the groups of hunters who had sent him questions and helped them with clues and guidance. Then he made sure the find was covered in the news. Sadly for him it did not create a newsworthy slew of casque discoveries... So as the pragmatic marketer he was, he cut his losses, dropped plans for the sequel and moved on to other projects.

rennovator, those are good critical thoughts. I think the Chicago finders were missing a vital component. We simply don't have any confirmation on what that information was. Preiss' decision to give them a polaroid in addtion to being helpful to them for being what was considered "close enough" may have included the secondary motive to stimulate the hunt by proving to his customer base that the jewel rewards aren't something fictional. I think 10 x 13 might look like trees NOW, but it may not have looked that way THEN. It could be some assumed unit of distance, like the pace, or feet, or meters, but I firmly believe that to only be a rough estimation of where you end up as long as you chose the correct parameters for what objects define points on one or both sides of the rectangle. It may well be trees, but that could be confusing with so many trees around. I like the practicality of limiting it to something more unique to that corner of the park, hence the fence post, or a lamp fixture, or an electrical junction box.

Unknown: nobody was in making any progress on any of the hunts Well, we don't know this for sure. All we know is that only one was dug up initially, and that was accomplished in large part due to his direct involvement. Who knows how many more would have been dug up had he offered the same level of help to other treasure hunters who got as close as the Chicago group did. We know that Preiss received over 700 "solutions" and/or requests for help. I find it hard to believe that all of them were completely off the mark. Which brings me back to my point that maybe Preiss realized based on early feedback that the puzzles were flawed (at least in regard to pinpointing a dig spot), and other than this one, clumsy attempt to correct the mistake, decided as you say to just cut his losses and move on to other, more profitable ventures.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: We know that Preiss received over 700 "solutions" and/or requests for help. I find it hard to believe that all of them were completely off the mark. I don't know about that I have been concentrating on SF since 1999 when I moved close enough to make regular trips. I know alone, I have dug 10 times, and considered dozens more. If the option had been available, I would have sent an email to BP for each one. (just in case). But by then there was a "do not disturb BP" unless you dig one up feeling going around Looking back from what I know know, I have at least 50 SF solutions that were way off the mark, and that's just me alone. I am really surprised how few "solutions" were actually submitted.

Unknown: I think the Chicago finders were missing a vital component. We simply don't have any confirmation on what that information was. More importantly, we can't be sure whether the puzzle even contains that information. Oregonian seems to think the images do, and has made a compelling case for the Cleveland (and IMO San Francisco) solve(s). But until he can do the same for the Chicago solve (which is the only other puzzle besides Cleveland where we know exactly where the dig spot is), I'm inclined to think that this particular puzzle is flawed in that way, and that's one of the reasons that Preiss got so closely involved with this particular group and essentially all but dug it up for them.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: More importantly, we can't be sure whether the puzzle even contains that information. Oregonian seems to think the images do, and has made a compelling case for the Cleveland (and IMO San Francisco) solve(s). But until he can do the same for the Chicago solve (which is the only other puzzle besides Cleveland where we know exactly where the dig spot is), I'm inclined to think that this particular puzzle is flawed in that way, and that's one of the reasons that Preiss got so closely involved with this particular group and essentially all but dug it up for them. I agree to disagree and will get back to you in january -reguarding how compelling his cases are...

Always exciting to hear when someone is certain enough to dig, regardless of whether I agree with their dig spot or not. Good luck and happy hunting.

"The end" of 10 by 13 is your clue. That is what the verse says. By including the words, "The end," I believe BP is saying that you have to extrapolate past the grid when you get to the tree that is 10 by 13. My guess is that is how you get to the exact treasure spot. If the trees were separated from each other by the same distance - say, for example, 9 feet, then you just have to go another 9 feet past the grid to dig. Has anyone tried to do that? I think if it just said "10 by 13 is your clue," then (I believe Renovator suggested) that only gets you to a tree, and not the dig spot. But "the end" is a clue in itself. Remember, BP doesn't waste words in a verse.

Unknown: Remember, BP doesn't waste words in a verse. Sure he does. The last five lines of the verse are almost completely irrelevant as they direct you to things that are on the other side of East Jackson. Fortunately for the Chicago group, there are very few likely dig spots over there or they might have spent their time aimlessly searching on the north side of the street. For all we know, they might have before ruling it out. My interpretation of "the end..." is different from Sir Egbert's in that I think it is just meant to direct us to the NW corner of the copse (the other end from the Lincoln statue as it were). From that spot, you would notice the fence (easily identifiable by the distinctive post/halo in the image), the fixture (also distinctive on the wall albeit a little harder to spot in the image) and the Central Line (maybe also meant to convey that the treasure was in the center of those two other things), and you could reasonably conclude that you had reached the treasure ground. The problem is, as the Chicago group realized, that without additional information, this is still a pretty big area to search if you are looking for a small box buried three feet deep.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Sure he does. The last five lines of the verse are almost completely irrelevant as they direct you to things that are on the other side of East Jackson. [snip] The problem is, as the Chicago group realized, that without additional information, this is still a pretty big area to search if you are looking for a small box buried three feet deep. When you see the questions oregonian was having, where even when we knew where the casque was found, he still couldn't figure out which end of the park to go to and I see you dismiss the last five things, because they are across the street. I really have to scratch my head... The last five lines don't send you accross the street. They just about nail you to the corner of the park where the casque was found For finding jewel casque Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. over sitting Lincoln's shoulder at the edge of intersection of a row of two trees, near railroad tracks near the art institute. And lastly the word Hush, discounted by so many as fluff or just a filler word. That's just dumb. There are several logical possibilities, especially when we consider that BP assumed these puzzles would last about 1 year before being solved. Its possible the word hush was something transient, i.e graffiti on the wall. Its possible a vendor or store nearby had a large hush puppies sign. I think more likely though if you were a local to chicago at the time. you would have associated the word Jackson not with andrew or Stonewall, but with Mahalia. and Mahalia is known for songs such as Hush, somebody's calling my name, Hush, the wind, and of course Summertime... you know, Hush little baby don't you cry... and jackson is the street next to the casque BP was a word craftsman, Every line was chosen carefully and meant something.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: From that spot, you would notice the fence (easily identifiable by the distinctive post/halo in the image), The trouble with that idea is the "distinctive post/halo" is replicated all along the length of that fence. you need specific language to get you to that corner and there it is... the last 5 lines.

Unknown: The trouble with that idea is the "distinctive post/halo" is replicated all along the length of that fence. Again, we don't know that for sure. Today, very few of the 'halos" remain and it's possible that in 1982, enough were missing that the one with the halo that defines our treasure ground boundary stood out. But, even with that clue, the treasure ground (defined as an area bounded by the path to the east, the wall to the north, the tracks to the west, and the fence post to the south) encompasses an area of roughly 1,250 square feet, and nothing in those last five lines narrows that down at all from what I can tell. At best, it confirms the area. The lack of precision wouldn't have been a problem if Preiss determined that identifying the treasure ground was close enough, as he seems to have done for the Chicago group. But unless you assume that this is the closest that anyone got to the treasure ground (for this or any of the other 11 puzzles), or that we are missing something in this puzzle that precisely narrows down the dig spot (which Preiss in an effort to jump start book sales, choose to overlook in this case), it's a real problem today. My question still stands: what in this puzzle (image or verse) precisely defines the dig spot? I don't presume to speak for Oregonian, but as I understand it, that's the general nature of his argument as well. Precision or bulldozer as he put it (although a backhoe would be a better tool for the job).

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Again, we don't know that for sure. Today, very few of the 'halos" remain and it's possible that in 1982, enough were missing that the one with the halo that defines our treasure ground boundary stood out. But, even with that clue, the treasure ground (defined as an area bounded by the path to the east, the wall to the north, the tracks to the west, and the fence post to the south) encompasses an area of roughly 1,250 square feet, and nothing in those last five lines narrows that down at all from what I can tell. At best, it confirms the area. The lack of precision wouldn't have been a problem if Preiss determined that identifying the treasure ground was close enough, as he seems to have done for the Chicago group. But unless you assume that this is the closest that anyone got to the treasure ground (for this or any of the other 11 puzzles), or that we are missing something in this puzzle that precisely narrows down the dig spot (which Preiss in an effort to jump start book sales, choose to overlook in this case), it's a real problem today. My question still stands: what in this puzzle (image or verse) precisely defines the dig spot? I don't presume to speak for Oregonian, but as I understand it, that's the general nature of his argument as well. Precision or bulldozer as he put it (although a backhoe would be a better tool for the job). I visited the site in the mid to late 90s and all the halos were in place along the fence. the dig site was specifically inidicated by the lines: The end of ten by thirteen Is your clue Fence and fixture Central too so equidistant between the halo fencepost and the fixture and lined up with the trees ... that is a specific dig spot... and it turns out is where they dug and found the casque. That is much more specific than "1,250 square feet" actually being more like 10 square feet. Why do you insist on ignoring so much of the verse?

Egbert wrote:: Remember, BP doesn't waste words in a verse. Birch?

Xieish wrote:: Birch? Who you callin' a birch?

I can't remember if this has been pointed out before, but another possible interpretation of "ten by thirteen": 10th letter = J = J ackson Blvd. 13th letter = M = M ichigan Ave. Tenuous, I know, but worth mentioning.

Unknown: that is a specific dig spot... and it turns out is where they dug and found the casque Unknown: Why do you insist on ignoring so much of the verse? Once again, I have to ask how you know this. It isn't from information on this forum because I've been over the relevant threads several times now and the best I can tell was the casque was somewhere in that corner. Even if I accept your estimate of 10 square feet (and for that, I have to assume that the original grid of trees extended to the west of the footpath, and to date I have found no evidence of that either) that still requires the removal of 300 cubic feet of soil if you want to be certain that the casque isn't there to a depth of 3'. What we do know is that the final retrieval was difficult, and might not have been possible without Priess' direct involvement. That much is beyond dispute. You believe that the puzzle was complete, accurate, and precise, and the only reason Preiss got involved with the Chicago group was to jump start moribund sales with some positive press. Since I find this explanation dubious, I'm looking for an alternative. I think you've answered your own question. The treasure ground is pretty accurately described by the 3 lines that immediately follow "L sits", and just in case that's not clear enough, the area in question is also bounded by hardscape (a walking path, a street, and the railroad tracks). I'm ignoring the last 5 lines simply because I don't need any more confirmation that I am on the treasure ground. What I need, and what I'm not convinced the verse provides, is a clear and unambiguous dig spot (again, preferably an area no larger than 3' x 3').

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Once again, I have to ask how you know this. It isn't from information on this forum because I've been over the relevant threads several times now and the best I can tell was the casque was somewhere in that corner. Yes, not everything made it onto the boards, because when Forest_B posted his picture of the corner and Bob Wrobel (Tenbythirteen) wrote "FB, excellent pictures of where the casque was buried. And yes the area has changed quite a bit however the site remains accessible." I messaged him and asked lots of questions sent diagrams, and narrowed it down to a small spot, that fits the verse perfectly. The spot I described in the previous post. But what you are saying is: I don't understand how the verse works, so it must be a failure of the verse.

I think its also important to remember that even though the verse resolves to a particular spot. The group that found the Chicago casque had not really solved the verse at the time. They arrived at the treasure ground. and started randomly digging. It was only analysis years afterwards that resolved the clues That does not mean the verse didn't work, just they didn't fully solve it.

Unknown: That does not mean the verse didn't work, just they didn't fully solve it. According to you, there was a row of ten trees and a row of thirteen trees, and where these two rows intersected there was a tree missing, and in that precise spot was where the casque was buried, and somehow, they missed this? They dug a hole big enough to hide in and still missed it? Preiss told them they had the right spot, and again, they missed it? Really? One thing is certainly true. Without a historic photograph of the area as it appeared circa 1981, this casque would be very difficult (although not impossible) to retrieve today. Sound familiar?

The Chicago casque in situ, July, 1983: Not much to be learned from this, except perhaps (a) the ~1'6" depth of the casque and (b) the marked lack of tree roots. Here is the newspaper story, one source of the "trees" theory: Note the words on p. 3: "...Preiss, dressed in a modest, blue-collar disguise, had crept into Grant Park and planted the ceramic cask, protected by a plastic box, in a woodsy, secluded area a few feet from a cement retaining wall that runs next to Jackson Drive and close to a link fence that keeps the bums off the railroad tracks ." Sounds pretty definitive to me. Also, the article mentions "ten by thirteen" referring to trees, but it's unclear how much we can trust that, since we know the "man and beast" reference is incorrect.

Unknown: The Chicago casque in situ, July, 1983: You know, I've been looking at that picture for almost 5 years (ever since I joined the forum) and every time I look at it I am struck by the same question: how come there is no dirt on top of the plexiglass box? I mean, did they take the box out of the hole, clean it up (completely by the looks of it), and then realizing that they might need or want a picture of it in the ground, put it back and then snap the picture? That seems like the most likely explanation anyway. Otherwise, that box is pretty pristine for something that was in the ground for almost two years before this group dug it up.

I believe the plexiglass box goes all the way up to the top of the dark part. So you're not seeing the top; it's still in the dirt.

Of course. I just assumed the box was square, which is clearly not the case. Mystery solved. Thanks.

Shadowrunner once posted a walk-through for his group's Chicago solve. I must have saved it in May, 2008 in case his website ever disappeared (which it did, not too long after). With apologies to Shadowrunner, I just posted a .pdf version here: hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chicago_solve.pdf It settles some of the questions that have recently come up regarding trees. Also, of course, now we know that M and B stand for Mozart and Beethoven. We also know where the circular design comes from, and that the windmill likely was a reference to the Windy City. I also uploaded some photographs I took of the environs in May, 2006 and May, 2008: hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chicago.2006 hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chicago.2008

Thanks for posting all of this FB. A lot of good information there, and a real wake up call for anyone who thinks they can just go out, dig a hole, and retrieve one of these things.

(more ramblings... and thanks Hirudiniforme for his insights) There are many facets to these puzzles. Something I think intended for the keen observer is the hint for the state of Illinois. Take the pertaining letter clues: M B R L They aren't in order. Three words near the end of the verse start with three of the letters: Rumble, Brush, Music = R B M. If M (Mozart), B (Beethoven), and R (Roosevelt) are intended to correspond to Music, Brush, and Rumble respectively, then it would seem the L (Lincoln) corresponds to Hush. L + Hush = L + noise = Illinois. The key is the sounds of RUMBLE are those letters R M B L and the short vowell sound of the U. Next consider the sounds of BRUSH, MUSIC, and HUSH. BRUSH = short U, Music = long U, Hush = short U. MUSIC is a word of special importance because it's the one that sounds different. Playing with the letters gives us the following: MUSIC = MUCIS, sounds like "mucus". I think this same method applies to the word CELTIC = ILECTC = "elect" + ic. A connection must be found between "mucus" and "elect". The LotJ gives us "Brilliant as eyes, Celtic emerald, cold morning green." The last three words all may relate to the quality of being or looking ill: common cold, morning sickness, looking green. COMPLEXION is a word used to describe the quality of how someone looks. COMPLEXION rhymes with ELECTION. There certainly seems to be a connection to ELECTION given the references to Roosevelt and Lincoln. Then we have Grant. I wonder if there's something more. Consider the word COMPLEXION. COMPLEX + ION. In chemistry a "complex ion" is known as a coordinated complex of a metal ion/atom at the center (Central too) of a structure bound by ligands (Fence and fixture). This is no doubt wackadoo to everyone given the sway of Mozart to Lincoln to a Fence and Train and then this strange talk of being sick followed by some erudite topic in chemistry...but restrain your Occamsian point of view and take an imaginative step if proper nudging is to be found. The jump to chemistry is extremely subtle if that. Perhaps MUSIC = CIMUS = "chemis" + try. There's not much else to squeeze out of those five letters, but maybe we do have some wacky MUSIC = "chemis" and/or "mucus" letter/sound combinational idea at play. Ugg...it boggles my mind. What if "The end of ten by thirteen" doesn't solely refer to a "10x13" grid. As it is common lingo to take the word "by" as meaning "x", I think it might also be considered as meaning "any operation". I could say divide 100 by 4, in which case the "by" would mean the "/" symbol. I could say subtract 50 by 15, meaning the "by" is a "-" symbol. I think the "by" in this case could also be a "+", and so the end of ten by thirteen is simply saying "10 + 13 = ?". 23 The 23rd letter of the alphabet is W. W is also an element on the periodic table. A metal known as Tungsten (Wolfram). It was patented in 1913 in it's application to the light bulb by William Coolidge. Coolidge is also the name of an elected President. So what's the goal in all this? We've followed Roosevelt and Lincoln into Grant Park...now Coolidge and his light bulb? Cool...cold... I still wonder if the point of the puzzle is to lead us to a spot where lamp fixtures are aligned in such a way that the exact dig spot would be revealed.

Inspired by decibalnyc, I took a closer look at Image 5. I can't remember if this has been posted before (maybe?), but until 1928 the Chicago Club had its headquarters at the corner of Michigan and Van Buren (very close to the casque site), and there are significant parallels between that building and Image 5: The arch still exists. When the building collapsed in 1928, they moved the arch around the corner and incorporated it into the new structure. It can be seen today, under a green awning on Van Buren.

Is it possible "M and B" is "Martin van Buren"? Edit: I should rephrase that. If R is Roosevelt and L is Lincoln' then it might have made sense for M and B to be Van Buren, although its been debated to be Man and Beast or Mozart and Beethoven. forest_blight's great architecture references on Van Buren just got me thinking.

Great find forest (and decibel). They are definitely of the same architecture...Which, may I open the can of worms, could there be more than one possible 'iconic' building or structure to an image-location? Or none? And Eric, I think M&B is Mozart and Beethoven. Period. Although your former fits really well too.

I've been researching this for a while, and I've found some things also...but nothing that really changes the fairly straightforward instructions of what you do when you find Lincoln. The most baffling thing about this puzzle is that those guys were in the right spot a dozen times...and on the last try, WITH HELP, supposedly in a moment of frustration, they uncover it. The dig instructions for this puzzle are far more clear than many others...so, let's say this happened and those guys had never had the help from Byron...that spot would have been ruled out as "not there," if these guys were in the right spot digging a dozen holes and missing it. Then years go by and the bridge is replaced, and the casque is gone forever, and people would look forever for it. TJ, I don't know if it's as much of an Icon thing as it's possibly a shortcut thing....very weakly possibly.

Exploring a notion based on letter count. At the end of ten by thirteen, might be useful in giving us the intersection of J (10th letter) and M (13th letter). The casque was discovered closest to the Jackson and Michigan intersection, so perhaps there's room for exploring what features in the chosen viscinty drive the variables of the puzzle.

Technically it was found closer to Columbus and Jackson at 397 feet away, rather than Michigan and Jackson which is 505 feet away, also I can assure you M & B are Mozart and Beethoven.

True. Its also worth considering whether the techicality offers more guidance than the common understanding where the east side of the park is adjacent to Columbus and the west side is adjacent to the railway and Michigan. Its never been absolutely clear that M and B are Mozart and Beethoven. We know the Chicago finders said it was Man and Beast and that Preiss didnt argue on that point, while he did ask them to clarify their opinion on ten by thirteen. 20 years later Egbert posed the question of M and B to Preiss. How much certainty and in depth clarification was Preiss giving him while being occupied with the Cleveland solve and the delivery of Image 6's sapphire? My opinion on the line "Where M and B are set in stone" is that it is saying "Where streets M and B intersect at a location hinted by the idiom "set in stone"". Set in stone = fixed arrangement, such as a contract or agreement. Grant Park can be related by this idiom given that the word 'grant' involves the process of agreement.

Okay, got my head on straight. I didn't realize MOZART and BEETHOVEN are such large letters on the face of that Orchestra Hall building. It seems possible that at a time when the trees were smaller or without foilage, M and B could be seen from a line pointing past the corner of the art building and to the treasure ground. I don't think it's for the purposes of accuracy, but it does look like it gets you there to that corner of the park.

Forest, Could this maybe be the representation of the castle in the image. Both this building and the one next to it have been there since the 50's, probably before. One of the only spots along Michigan that has architecture with an A frame top...and that Castle looking building in question is the University Club established in 1887 for the purpose of fostering an appreciation of literature and the arts. College or university graduation remains the basic requirement for membership, and within the membership nearly every business and profession is represented. (from their website). So far all of the buildings I've found that match up to the image were chosen wisely...a university, a landmark hotel, statues, a old school college club for continued education, the 1 building that didn't burn in the "great fire." It seems that these aren't as much treasure ground clues, but rather area clues...but area clues that aren't going away.

The direction of that yellow star in my mock up above is approx 130-degrees from the position of the Mozart and Beethoven facade, perhaps suggesting some compass work plays a role in 10 x 13 being selected.

decibalnyc -- that is certainly possible. I have always assumed that the artist drew inspiration from the Water Tower (the windmill in the image), further north on Michigan. It has crenelations just like this.

Decibel-I think you've at least "cemented" some of the types of area landmarks (some we already know), but definitely are more apparent. Image "environment", if you will. I will be keeping an eye out for the things we should look for that are embedded in the image...they for sure seem to and give us 1. the city and 2. quite possibly the area of the treasure ground. And if more and more of these point to the treasure ground, maybe we should give the images another look with the context of buildings surrounding some of the suspect parks. Good job man.

Still dinkin around with these lines. Taking a closer look at that statue outside the Art building, it looks like the figure to the left of the central figure was the model for the fairy in the painting and it's been photographed at an angle. I wonder if that angle is in the direction of the casque.

tjgrey wrote:: Decibel-I think you've at least "cemented" some of the types of area landmarks (some we already know), but definitely are more apparent. Image "environment", if you will. I agree, the area along Michigan has that architecture, as Forest pointed out it's also down by the water tower, and all along Michigan Ave... Really wherever you look on the Miracle Mile at an old building, it has that architecture...you can find a ton of image matches all over the stuff around grant park. When I was in NOLA, walking around certain areas...it didn't have the same feel as in the image...same with Houston...there isn't really an Arabian desert vibe going on at the CZ. I would say that in the Chicago puzzle, he did seem to paint out the atmosphere of architecture along Michigan Ave, and especially near the Congress Parkway. Now TJ are you saying this in a general sense. Chicago image has buildings, a crane, weather vane's, a water tower....so it has a downtown, city vibe. Cleveland has a statuesque, clash of the titans vibe going on, so you feel it fits the surroundings of the cultural gardens. Ok I can see that...in those two, yes. Then how would you apply that to say...Montreal, or Charleston? I think Chicago, and Cleveland probably look like the area's they were found near for a reason...also they are out of the ground, something to consider...perhaps if another image had such unmistakable architectural clues and atmosphere clues, a 3rd would possibly be out already. Either we are looking in the wrong spots or Cleveland and Chicago were made easier than others...something to ponder.

I meant Magnificent Mile, the Miracle Mile is L.A. I get them confused.

I am in Chicago this weekend for a wedding tomorrow evening. Going to take some time tomorrow in Grant Park. Got way too nerdy on the drive in tonight when we passed exits for Congress and Roosevelt. I am looking forward to walking the trail tomorrow.

I know we have seen it a thousand times but it feels a little like being on hallowed ground.

hxxp://imgur.com/TGQ3bdr The bowman in the distance as seen from the fence and fixture.

Go.to the absolute corner measure 10 feet exactly along the fence then and walk exactly 13 feet away from the fence and co.pare that spot to the photo provided by Eric, one of finders, for whbere he recalls digging for the casques. Then you'll be able to decide for yourself whether "ten by thirteen" is about trees or about foot-measure.

It is/was trees

how much can I pay you to take a tape measure to the site and send a pic of the spot? Mind if I pay you in Ethereum?

I was in Grant Park yesterday for an event and got a chance to visit the site. So fun to see it in person. It really hit home though how much the world has changed since the early eighties. There is no way you could get away with burying something there today - so much surveillance and police presence.

I friend of mine now lives in the Chicago area, so at some point I'll get a few tape measurements based on the photo provided by Wrobel. I've always been interested in verifying whether an exact distance measure in feet or meters might make additional sense for the "ten by thirteen" line. I would love to visit the site myself someday, but I've been way too busy with work, family and the crazy increase in cryptocurrencies. The CME adding futures to exchanges in Dec. will be most interesting.

erexere wrote:: ... tape measurements based on the photo provided by Wrobel. I've always been interested in verifying whether an exact distance measure in feet or meters might make additional sense for the "ten by thirteen" line. Totally believe everything BP "says." Ten and thirteen were... M and B were... You got all the clues... It wouldn't be a waste of time... You deserve to know you are right... The most expensive jewels are the hardest...

Cool. Was there a specific reason why you didn't want payment in exchange for the measurement?

erexere wrote:: Cool. Was there a specific reason why you didn't want payment in exchange for the measurement? Yes, there is a reason. A few more than that, actually. *All measurements are to tree center. >10-foot sections of fencing from post to post along the tracks... the decorative post seen in the image is 30 feet from the wall on Jackson (i.e., third post from wall). >The large tree the book was closest to (i.e., the last in the zig-zag line of trees that lined the tracks) - the N/S line - is 18 feet from the wall on Jackson, 22 feet to the sidewalk on Jackson, and 6 feet from the path (i.e., wall is 4-feet wide). >The last tree on the end of the line of trees behind Lincoln - the E/W line - (i.e., running parallel to Jackson) is 11 feet from the sidewalk on Jackson, 5 feet from the path. >The distance from the fencing along the railway to the path that runs from Lincoln to Jackson is 35 feet. >The width of the path that runs from Lincoln to Jackson is 22 feet.

Did Preiss use a tape measure or a yardstick to do these specific measurements while he was covertly digging a giant hole in Grant Park during his whirlwind cask burying tour?

I think a 25' tape measure and a compass might be the handy tools he could easily carry along.

Bumping this thread forward. I have a feeling that it might become relevant again.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Bumping this thread forward. I have a feeling that it might become relevant again. It probably will be but the image below while supplied by Rob, is not where he just indcated the casque was found. so the measurements are invalid anyway, Look you cant even see the fence post that had the arch in this image. its on the wrong side of the tree.

and before we get deeper into a discussion of where it was/ where they said it was /where we think it was it wasn't where i thought either. What Rob said, surprised me. but when he explained it all, it totally made sense. why they missed. why they dug in the wrong spot even after getting the photo. etc etc.

I probably would have too, the iconic three post fence as seen in the image is yards away from where the casque was. The posts are at the corner intersection of where the ten met with 13 trees. But as I understand Preiss meant us to follow along the ten trees/ seeing the three posts / continue down the row to the (end) thirteen trees / (your clue) fence and fixture too (fixture on the building where the thirteen trees ended). At the crosshairs of the last tree and the fixture on the building by the fence is, as I understand, where the casque was dug up.

Goldengate wrote:: ... It was about being at the 90 degree juncture between the fence and fixture, rather than between. ... As I understand it at this part of the fence there were no indenifers. It was the 90 degree juncture of the last tree and the fixture on the wall. Which was in between the fence that has the three posts and the row of 13 trees. The problem they were having is two of the trees had already been removed. That’s what prompted BP to tell the to “go back and count them again.” The last tree in the line was already missing when they keyed in on Grant Park, so they were going off 12th tree in row not knowing. One of the recollections said they were about to give up when one of them throw the shovel at the wall of the hole and a clump of dirt fell revealing the casque. The information came out in pieces from different interviews, posts and print articles. Is this how everyone else recalls the information or am I off on parts?

Probably you are correct, so much information and misinformation hard to keep things clear and organized on the boards a wiki on the board would be useful. I just was reading up on pbworks wiki they have an updated picture of them on EU and it shows one of the fence post markers but it doesn’t have the halo anymore. So I guess it was that intersection or the intersection of all three things? Who knows?

Unknown: It probably will be but the image below while supplied by Rob, is not where he just indcated the casque was found. If you are referring to the photo with the tape measure in it, that photo was supplied by 421 when he was in Chicago last year. It shows the approximate location of the red-shaded book, which was Eric Gasiorowski's best guess as to where they dug the final, successful hole. As a frame of reference, that spot is about 20' north, and 15' east of the decorative fence post shown in the Image. And it is consistent with both the interview they gave to the television reporter in 1983, and the recreation they did for Renner's documentary a few years ago. If you look on the previous page of this thread, you will see a picture (posted by Merlot Brougham) that shows the location that Rob Wrobel now claims is where the casque was actually dug up. Based on what was said in the recent podcast, that spot was in line with both the fence and the fixture, so that would put it about 30' south of the wall, and about 3' east of the fence, directly in front of the decorative fence post. It's close to, but not exactly the same spot that they showed Josh Gates. So, obviously there is disagreement. And I will leave it at that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: It's close to, but not exactly the same spot that they showed Josh Gates. So, obviously there is disagreement. And I will leave it at that. not really you have Eric who said it was his best guess and you have Rob saying it was exactly here. because of this and this and this... we can leave it at that. I will just take the word of someone who was there.

Unknown: you have Eric who said it was his best guess Unknown: and you have Rob saying it was exactly here Unknown: I will just take the word of someone who was there. His "best guess" was corroborated by Rob on at least two occasions, including once in 1983 when the location was still fresh in their minds. Not exactly. I have you saying that someone told you that Rob told him...well, you get the idea. Meanwhile, the location keeps changing. Eric Gasiorowski was there too Matt. And while he has never said exactly where they found it, it's pretty clear that he thinks (and Rob once thought) that they were at least 20' away from the decorative fence post when they dug it up.

The video is up on FB. so please ignore what I have said. Rob is quite explicit and exacting. Sorry if that messes up your previous theories.

Unknown: Sorry if that messes up your previous theories. I didn't have any theories because I didn't know exactly where it was dug up. I just knew that as explained, the dig spot did not resolve to a precise spot based on the orientation of the trees. For reasons that I have tried to explain as logically as I can, I still don't know where the dig spot was. You are welcome to believe that for the last 35 years (and as recently as last year when the EU episode was taped) Rob had forgotten that the casque was 3' in front of the only recognizable landmark in that part of the park. And you are welcome to believe that despite the mathematical precision of that spot, they still almost missed it despite digging a 9 square foot hole. But I don't. Sorry.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I didn't have any theories because I didn't know exactly where it was dug up. I just knew that as explained, the dig spot did not resolve to a precise spot based on the orientation of the trees. For reasons that I have tried to explain as logically as I can, I still don't know where the dig spot was. You are welcome to believe that for the last 35 years (and as recently as last year when the EU episode was taped) Rob had forgotten that the casque was 3' in front of the only recognizable landmark in that part of the park. And you are welcome to believe that despite the mathematical precision of that spot, they still almost missed it despite digging a 9 square foot hole. But I don't. Sorry. He did explain why their 9 square foot (3'x3') hole (so just a routine hole not a huge excavation) was in the wrong spot and that they didn't figure out the mathematical precision of the spot only recently and now understand why they had so much trouble. But this is an approximate version (they figured it out exactly, just recently)

Unknown: But this is an approximate version Why approximate? The decorative fence post is still there, exactly where it was (sans the halo) 35 years ago. And for the most part, so it the "fixture", although the original box was replaced when they rebuilt the bridge. But if that's not conclusive enough, we have pictures of the original fixture and it's precise location. And we are triangulating off those two things, which gives us an exact, mathematically precise spot, down to the width of both objects. What do the trees have to do with anything?

Unknown: Renovator... Goldengate, You don't know anything about me. Please stop pretending that you do. Thanks in advance.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Why approximate? The decorative fence post is still there, exactly where it was (sans the halo) 35 years ago. And for the most part, so it the "fixture", although the original box was replaced when they rebuilt the bridge. But if that's not conclusive enough, we have pictures of the original fixture and it's precise location. And we are triangulating off those two things, which gives us an exact, mathematically precise spot, down to the width of both objects. What do the trees have to do with anything? simply because my picture was so low res and my arrows are so big, I had trouble picking out the exact spots of the arch and fixture. and on my current desktop I do not have the pictures of the fixture and fence locations... so to be technically accurate, I noted my approximations. That way no one will say this image is obviously wrong... while totally missing the point. What do the trees have to do with anything??? The trees are the intersection of 10x13? did you miss that part of the verse? So in reality you went to the intersection of the trees. and then... you went to the intersection of the fence and fixture. two separate operations...

Unknown: So in reality you went to the intersection of the trees. and then... you went to the intersection of the fence and fixture. I think I understand now. In this solution, the "end of 10 by 13" locates you in the general vicinity of the dig spot (in reality, it's about 30' away, at least), and the intersection of the fence and fixture locates the precise dig spot, down to the width of the fence post and the fixture box. An area of approximately 1' x 1' square. Which, again, they almost missed because they didn't understand how to interpret "Fence and fixture Central too". Or maybe because Preiss wasn't precise when he indexed off these two things, using line of sight for the fixture (which is 30' away) instead of an actual measurement. Or he did and they didn't when they dug their hole, relying on a picture of a hole that didn't include the one thing they really needed (the fence post) instead. Still, I have to wonder just how Eric feels about this latest development. I'd love to get his version, just for the record.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I think I understand now. In this solution, the "end of 10 by 13" locates you in the general vicinity of the dig spot (in reality, it's about 30' away, at least), and the intersection of the fence and fixture locates the precise dig spot, down to the width of the fence post and the fixture box. An area of approximately 1' x 1' square. Which, again, they almost missed because they didn't understand how to interpret "Fence and fixture Central too". Or maybe because Preiss wasn't precise when he indexed off these two things, using line of sight for the fixture (which is 30' away) instead of an actual measurement. Or he did and they didn't when they dug their hole, relying on a picture of a hole that didn't include the one thing they really needed (the fence post) instead. Still, I have to wonder just how Eric feels about this latest development. I'd love to get his version, just for the record. No, your 30' away was incorrect, you must understand the lines are seperate, Fence and fixture, Central too. so this 1x1 area is either the endpoint of a triangle , or right in the middle between 2 object

Unknown: so this 1x1 area is either the endpoint of a triangle , or right in the middle between 2 object Not at all what the illustration shows. We are indexing off the fence post, at a 90 degree angle from the fixture, which in reality is 30' to the north. By the by Matt, I can see why you like this solution so much. It is another piece of evidence that some or all of the remaining puzzles might, in fact, be "gravestone" puzzles. That is, there is something shown clearly in the Image that not only indicates the Treasure Ground, but actually locates the dig spot precisely. Perhaps the hardest part of the Montreal puzzle was finding the "legeater".

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: In this solution, the "end of 10 by 13" locates you in the general vicinity of the dig spot (in reality, it's about 30' away, at least), and the intersection of the fence and fixture locates the precise dig spot, down to the width of the fence post and the fixture box. An area of approximately 1' x 1' square. Which, again, they almost missed because they didn't understand how to interpret "Fence and fixture Central too". Or maybe because Preiss wasn't precise when he indexed off these two things, using line of sight for the fixture (which is 30' away) instead of an actual measurement. Or he did and they didn't when they dug their hole, relying on a picture of a hole that didn't include the one thing they really needed (the fence post) instead. Still, I have to wonder just how Eric feels about this latest development. I'd love to get his version, just for the record. That does sound very close to what Rob said , although when you line up the 10 trees and the 13 trees, you are basically standing near the spot not 30 feet away.. maybe 10,15 or so. That is a good point I will suggest that JM reach out after he finishes talking to the Palencars today.

Unknown: maybe 10,15 or so. The only way this could have been possible is if they were using the westernmost tree line (i.e. closest to the fence line) for their "10". The eastern tree line (i.e. closest to the path) is 30' away from the fence line. It's a minor detail, and probably not important since the trees no longer figure into the final dig spot. They are Treasure Ground indicators, and for this solve, just a way to know which decorative post we need to be digging at.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: The only way this could have been possible is if they were using the westernmost tree line (i.e. closest to the fence line) for their "10". The eastern tree line (i.e. closest to the path) is 30' away from the fence line. It's a minor detail, and probably not important since the trees no longer figure into the final dig spot. They are Treasure Ground indicators, and for this solve, just a way to know which decorative post we need to be digging at. yes if you review the video he points at the trees along the fence...

Bumping this link back up for the newbies since people don't seem to be combing through the previous pages of the threads these days. hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chicago_solve.pdf

Unknown: if you review the video he points at the trees along the fence... I'll take your word for it. The problem is that there weren't 10 mature trees along the fence line. Not in 1981 when Preiss buried the Chicago casque, and not in 1983 when the Chicago group dug it up. For this theory to work, we have to assume that 10 x 13 refers to some portion of the grid of trees on the east side of the path, and the purpose it serves is to locate you north of the first decorative fence post (the one they originally dug) and in the vicinity of the second (the one Rob is now claiming as the "gravestone"). You are still on the eastern side of the path, which is almost 60' away from the fence, but as a Treasure Ground confirmer, that's probably close enough.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I'll take your word for it. The problem is that there weren't 10 mature trees along the fence line. Not in 1981 when Preiss buried the Chicago casque, and not in 1983 when the Chicago group dug it up. For this theory to work, we have to assume that 10 x 13 refers to some portion of the grid of trees on the east side of the path, and the purpose it serves is to locate you north of the first decorative fence post (the one they originally dug) and in the vicinity of the second (the one Rob is now claiming as the "gravestone"). You are still on the eastern side of the path, which is almost 60' away from the fence, but as a Treasure Ground confirmer, that's probably close enough. I don't think you have that right at all. I have pictures of these trees ( the numbered ones) back to the late 80s and they were mature then, I think it is safe to assume they didn't plant mature trees. so they probably had been there since the 70s or before. because even now they aren't that much bigger than the were then. So the numbers add up, the location adds up, the dates add up and it looks like the Chicago casque was actually located with the verse to a very small specific area.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I have pictures of these trees ( the numbered ones) back to the late 80s Renovator asked me to post this picture from three years before BP launched the book. Are these the trees to which you are referring? Cause if they are, you can now clearly see there was never a line of 10 along the fence. In fact, seems to be much the same as your current day image

Renovator asked me to post this picture from three years before BP launched the book. Are these the trees to which you are referring? Cause if they are, you can now clearly see there was never a line of 10 along the fence. In fact, seems to be much the same as your current day image Yes I can clearly see the line of trees with 8 and 9 missing, but since we have pictures from 1988 where there are pretty good sized trees in the 8 and 9 spots that sometime between this picture and 1988 the trees were replanted. or to put it simply yes there was a row of 10 trees there. and over time trees were removed and replaced some not exactly in the same locations but there just the same. For instance Rob said the tree that is there right now next to the casque site was not there when they dug.

Goldengate wrote:: Maybe you're right, maybe your not, and I certainly don't KNOW for sure how many there were, but this photo sure isn't a smoking gun. Goldengate wrote:: I'll trust the word of the guys who found the casque. I didn't post the smoking gun. There's another thread for that. You are trusting the new words of one of the guys that found the casque.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You are trusting the new words of one of the guys that found the casque. ooooh italics.. it must be a conspiracy... Maybe he is trying to throw us all off the track so we can't find anymore casques... Or maybe he is trying hard to accurately recall what happened years ago to clear up any previous mis-communications made at a time when people didn't realize how spefically hunters would parse their words and to clarify for the record what happened. In that case we should say Thanks Rob! and Thanks JM for that clarification. and move on.

Well, don't really know how to respond to you, MF. I didn't even use (you say parse) the words of anyone. I showed you a picture, which is the same today as it was then (with just two exceptions). You can say there is/was a line of 10 along the fence all you want. However, any one who looks at the image i posted and a current day image can see the trees are the same. That includes the gap where you put 8 and 9... still a gap there today (it's where the other fencepost is, and you can see the base of it in my image). Whether you continue to state otherwise is irrelevant. I have nothing against Rob, and in no way think he is trying to mislead.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Well, don't really know how to respond to you, MF. Ok lets just agree to disagree. I have this photo in my notes labled 1989 and it shows trees in the 8/9 spots... but all that does is say the were there at some point.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Ok lets just agree to disagree. I have this photo in my notes labled 1989 and it shows trees in the 8/9 spots... but all that does is say the were there at some point. img No. It doesn't "say" there were trees there at some point, MF. Your image only makes it appear that way. In fact, here's a picture that also makes it appear to have trees there. But if you stand on the ground, you can clearly see there are not.

Unknown: In that case we should say Thanks Rob! and Thanks JM for that clarification. and move on. It is the furthest thing from "clarification" to say something that is not only at odds with conventional wisdom, but also at odds with the facts on the ground. Which is why I asked 421 to post the pictures. With regard to the latter, it doesn't really change anything because as I said before, the "end of 10 by 13" can simply lead us to the general area, and nothing more. After 35 years, I wouldn't expect Rob or anyone else to remember a detail like the location of specific trees, so I don't really care if he got it wrong in the latest re-telling. With regard the former, I will simply say (again) that there is more than one side to this story, and I will thank those who now tell it to tell it completely before they expect me or anyone else to thank them for it. Especially since it is so at odds with the conventional wisdom.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: It is the furthest thing from "clarification" to say something that is not only at odds with conventional wisdom, but also at odds with the facts on the ground. Which is why I asked 421 to post the pictures. With regard to the latter, it doesn't really change anything because as I said before, the "end of 10 by 13" can simply lead us to the general area, and nothing more. After 35 years, I wouldn't expect Rob or anyone else to remember a detail like the location of specific trees, so I don't really care if he got it wrong in the latest re-telling. With regard the former, I will simply say (again) that there is more than one side to this story, and I will thank those who now tell it to tell it completely before they expect me or anyone else to thank them for it. Especially since it is so at odds with the conventional wisdom. eye witness account vs conventional wisdom, go with conventional wisdom.?? so we agree 10x13 leads us to the general area, fine... we can go with that. and then fence and fixture leads us to the exact spot... great, Chicago resolves to an exact spot. clear enough.

Unknown: eye witness account vs conventional wisdom No, no, a thousand times no. This is not a contest Matt. With all due respect, you are trying so hard to win the argument that you have lost sight of what is truly important here: accurate, vetted, verifiable information. So be it. If you think the standard has been met, and the question is resolved, fine. Go with that. I don't think the matter is resolved at all, and that's what I will go with until I get more complete information. And if I don't get any more information, then I am no worse off than when I started. The rest of you (well except for the sycophants) will make up your own minds on how best to use the information presented here. That's why I brought the thread forward. Good luck to us all.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: , you are trying so hard to win the argument that you have lost sight of what is truly important here: accurate, vetted, verifiable information. Not trying to win an argument, Trying to report accurate vetted and verified information, from an Alpha source, one who was there. My opinion and yours does not matter.

With reports of 500,700, and possibly more (speculated by Renovator) incorrect answers that were supposed to have been submitted, why would Preiss choose to help these kids if they had it all wrong? They found the fence, the fixture and used the alignment of the trees to locate the treasure ground. Preiss must have believed that they had successfully decoded enough information to warrant his assistance. He never did this to that extent for anyone else. In fact, he seemed to give out cryptic answers and often misleading information from that point on. People argue about the 10x13 trees being incorrect. People argue that the 10x13 represented feet from one object to another. People argue that Preiss just handed over the answers to these kids. People just argue too damn much. Can we ever start to help each other again and not worry so much about who is right and wrong? To me, it’s obvious that no one person or group has all of the answers. End of report...

Unknown: With reports of 500,700, and possibly more (speculated by Renovator) I saw the 500 number somewhere recently, but the 700 number comes directly from the 8/9/83 article in the Chicago Tribune so 500 is moot. To the extent that I speculated, it was only that it's likely that Preiss received a few more (or possibly more than a few) solves between the time the article came out, and when people finally lost interest in the book. But you are correct that to the best of our knowledge, the only person/group that got it right enough for Preiss to help them was the Chicago group. But not's the same as saying that they got it exactly right. They just met the standard. With Preiss gone, and that avenue closed, I'd argue (ha, see what I did there?) that we don't argue too much, but just the right amount Bingo. That is to say, we try to look at the information from as many angles as we can, and we try to reach consensus whenever possible. Once that happens, the arguments tend to stop, on that subject at least. For example, I can't help but notice that ever since the "Slow Spill" thread gained traction, nobody seriously argues the conventional City/Image/Verse connections any more. Unfortunately, there is plenty more to argue about. That's the nature of this puzzle. With regard to your last point, all I can say is that agreeing on what is correct, and what requires further investigation is the only way we can help each other. Or as Mark Twain never said, it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Peace.

The 500 submissions number was Translated from the last page of the Japanese text.

Yes, thank you Rob. And thank you Eric, for the kind of boots on the ground perspective that could ONLY COME from someone who was there when the casque was unearthed. But there's this thing... If you look at Eric's PDF, you see that he clearly identifies the southern fence post as a false dig spot. The one they found by going 130 degrees from Lincoln, when they thought that's how the "10 x 13" clue was resolved. The one where Eric dug a hole so big, he was able to hide in it when the police came by. And the one where they eventually found...nothing. To say that he was familiar with the fence post would be an understatement. In the same PDF, he also identifies the northern fence post as being "just south west of the treasure site". Not the treasure site, and certainly not the dig spot. Eric never says, and up until recently, no one has ever even suggested that the only problem with their solve was that they were digging at the wrong fence post. Not once. I find this curious.

Unknown: WE ALL GET IT. Speaking for the group again GG? Why is that? Can't they speak for themselves?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Speaking for the group again GG? Why is that? Can't they speak for themselves? Well, speaking for myself.... I get it. You're passionate about it and disagree with Malted regarding the location, exact versus general area. The past several days are proof of that....in my opinion....because I don't want to speak for anybody else. Also in my opinion, going back and forth for days worth of point /counterpoint, with both of you effectively saying, 'I'm right, you're wrong and here's proof that my opinion is better than yours" is highly productive and not distracting at all. If it didn't happen, I wouldn't have gotten to see those nifty areal photos from the time period. (And, despite sarcasm vs. snark in the posts, I'd say that you've both been respectful, whether or not either of you are getting exasperated with the other. Cheers to both of you.)

Unknown: 'I'm right, you're wrong and here's proof that my opinion is better than yours Thank you EZ. But I will apologize right now to you and to anyone else who thinks this is about who is right and who is wrong about the final dig spot. I don't care as I can use the information either way. And although I don't think the matter is settled, I do think this conversation has run it's course and the thread can sink back into oblivion. I will bring it back if/when I think there is more pertinent information on the matter. And I encourage others to do the same.

Seems to me that the single letters are factored into some equation of sorts. First you identify things like M and B are Mozart and Beethoven. L is Lincoln. R is Roosevelt. Then you are left with wondering what 10 and 13 are. Its possible they are grid or intersection descriptors for the 10th and 13th letters of the alphabet. J and M. Jackson and Michigan are the closest intersection to that corner in Grant Park. I still wonder why Brian Zinn remembered 10x13 had to do with feet... Whateva...

erexere wrote:: Seems to me that the single letters are factored into some equation of sorts. First you identify things like M and B are Mozart and Beethoven. L is Lincoln. R is Roosevelt. Then you are left with wondering what 10 and 13 are. Its possible they are grid or intersection descriptors for the 10th and 13th letters of the alphabet. J and M. Jackson and Michigan are the closest intersection to that corner in Grant Park. I still wonder why Brian Zinn remembered 10x13 had to do with feet... Whateva... Wrong supposition. No reason to disbelieve Egbert's recollection of the words that came from the mouth of the man who handed over the wrong gemstone. As I understand it from my memory of these forums and Egbert' recent appearance on the podcast (and Egbert or anyone who knows more than me, please chime in and correct me), i have no reason to think that the error was on anyone's part but Byron's. 22 years later, he said it was feet after not even getting the correct gem. Something to consider anyway.

Also if 10x13 wasn’t tree lines why did BP back in the 80’s “chuckle and tell them to go recount the number of trees?”

10x13 is foot/feet, ft, Units

jayheedan1 wrote:: Also if 10x13 wasn’t tree lines why did BP back in the 80’s “chuckle and tell them to go recount the number of trees?” And something to the tune of account for anything missing or removed. (paraphrasing)

Merlot Brougham wrote:: Wrong supposition. No reason to disbelieve Egbert's recollection of the words that came from the mouth of the man who handed over the wrong gemstone. As I understand it from my memory of these forums and Egbert' recent appearance on the podcast (and Egbert or anyone who knows more than me, please chime in and correct me), i have no reason to think that the error was on anyone's part but Byron's. 22 years later, he said it was feet after not even getting the correct gem. Something to consider anyway. MB is correct. After Siskel and I met with BP, I came back and typed everything I could remember him telling us while it was fresh in my mind. I believe at the time, that the Chicago details were unknown at that point (I don't believe anyone actually knew that another treasure had been found, and it was just a rumor, but I could be wrong about that). The reason I mention that is because if I knew that 10x13 referred to trees, I would have asked a follow up question to BP when he told me they referred to feet. I would have said something like, "Oh we thought it referred to trees," and let him try and correct himself. I truly believe it was not purposeful deception on BP's part - it had been 22 years, and BP just misremembered it. My guess is that he was getting the clues mixed up in his head, because other puzzles refer to feet and distances. For heaven's sake, it had been over 2 decades. Of course he is not going to remember every detail, especially since he did not have the solutions to review before meeting us.

Unknown: Of course he is not going to remember every detail, especially since he did not have the solutions to review before meeting us. But he was a "very good poker player".

I appreciate that BP protected the integrity of the puzzles. It takes a certain quality and work to solve each detail of significance and he preserved that opportunity by not spoiling or hinting too much. I think he was clever in how he related answers to peoples questions so a similar quality of effort was needed to penetrate his responses.

Unknown: I appreciate that BP protected the integrity of the puzzles. I think he was very proud of what he had created, and believed that people were finally making progress without his help or interference. He was a smart man, and must have realized that the internet was the perfect tool for the job, as it gave people the ability to work on all the puzzles simultaneously, and share the clues as he intended. It is my belief that had he lived, and fulfilled his end of the bargain (let people know when they were right without having to actually dig up a casque), this puzzle would have been solved in its entirety within a few years of when the Cleveland casque was found. And not for nothing, I believe that this is exactly how JJP feels, then and now.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: But he was a "very good poker player". IMHO, being a good poker player is about not revealing any emotion in the course of the game, knowing the odds for hands and draws, knowing the betting system, and having a good short-term memory for cards (what's revealed in *this* hand, previous hands don't matter). Long-term memory for detail doesn't really enter into it as much.

Unknown: IMHO, being a good poker player is about not revealing any emotion in the course of the game Exactly. And as far as Preiss was concerned, the game was still on when he spoke with Andy and Brian. I think Brian felt the same way, but you can find the original quote here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1126&p=15955&hilit=poker#p15955 and decide for yourself.

Goldengate wrote:: you're not sincerely thanking someone when you say "thank you" but then in very next sentence essentially write that you don't believe them. Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I saw the 500 number somewhere recently, but the 700 number comes directly from the 8/9/83 article in the Chicago Tribune so 500 is moot. Erpobdelliforme wrote:: To the extent that I speculated, it was only that it's likely that Preiss received a few more (or possibly more than a few) solves between the time the article came out, and when people finally lost interest in the book. But you are correct that to the best of our knowledge, the only person/group that got it right enough for Preiss to help them was the Chicago group. But not's the same as saying that they got it exactly right. They just met the standard. Gratitude does not equals consent, believes does not equals fact. 500 is on a book published on 5/1983, and 700 was 3 months later, so it's not moot. I agree, and I believe so too. Maybe out of all the letters and solves BP received, they were the only group lucky enough to have the correct V/I paired, and their luck even brought them all the way to the dig site, they just couldn't figure out where the dig spot was. So BP gave them a very cost effective respond " One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words "

Unknown: So BP gave them a very cost effective respond "One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words" The picture would have been even more cost effective had it included the decorative fence post.

Seems I recall reading the original fixture box on the park building was replaced, is that true? Anyone know what the original looked like? In the painting under the halo fence there are three blocks different from the rest to me they look like wire/fuse boxes.

maltedfalcon wrote:: That looks correct.

Unknown: I will bring it back if/when I think there is more pertinent information on the matter. As of today, and as far as I am aware, there is no more pertinent information on the matter. Which I find pertinent. YMMV.

In Image 5 we have the fairy which is basically a dead ringer for one of the woman in the Fountain of the Great Lakes. This fountain is a very short distance from the casque site and sits in the South Garden of the Art Institute of Chicago. I was there a couple of weeks ago and walked the path and visited the site, however, the South Garden was closed for the winter. There was a sign stating that the gardens were currently closed. Has this always been the case? Would we not have been able to see this very visual clue if we were looking for the casque in the winter? Any Chicago natives that can chime in?

Why would they need to build a fence to keep "bums off the railroad tracks," and why would they think a 3-foot fence would do it? Was that just a hit job line from a homeless-hating newspaper writer? Such a weird line.

Just wondering if anyone found a good connection for this dog/lion image in the spare space of the fairy ? (the image is the fountain of the great lakes lady on it's side) Is there a statue like this nearby ? I know there are lions at the entrance of the Art Institute, but those are not an exact match... (or any other general dog references to the area?)

drunknerds wrote:: Why would they need to build a fence to keep "bums off the railroad tracks," and why would they think a 3-foot fence would do it? Was that just a hit job line from a homeless-hating newspaper writer? Such a weird line. As far as I can tell you have never been on those tracks, so the fence is doing the intended job. You want to blame the reporter? But seriously, it would otherwise be a blind drop off the retaining wall to the tracks below. I'm sure some intrepid hunter with a measuring tape can give you the precise few feet of distance. Why bums would be the only ones, were the fence not there, susceptible to falling to their doom or shattered ankles/knees is the nagging question.

Oh, that makes perfect sense then. Someone could drunkenly stumble over the edge then sue

maltedfalcon wrote:: The video is up on FB...Rob is quite explicit and exacting... Back in August, there was a discussion on this thread of a video on FB where Rob Wrobel discusses the Chicago treasure area. I've searched, but can't seem to locate this. Can anyone point me in the right direction or have the link that they could post? Thanks everyone.

Kang wrote:: Back in August, there was a discussion on this thread of a video on FB where Rob Wrobel discusses the Chicago treasure area. I've searched, but can't seem to locate this. Can anyone point me in the right direction or have the link that they could post? "The video is up on FB" means it is on Facebook, probably inside the group, of which I am not a member. I cannot give you a link, but the FB group is mentioned elsewhere and should point you to a login/join.

There is a video on Renner's site: Eric Gasiorowski and Rob Wrobel take us to Grant Park and reveal the location of the buried key they discovered in 1983. https://twelvesecretkeys.blogspot.com/2 ... e8ihTKck8Y

Another video from Renner's site about Chicago treasure: 3 young guys on a TV show in 1983 discussing how they found the treasure https://twelvesecretkeys.blogspot.com/2 ... Qh-Mv37JXk

Durian wrote:: I've been toying with the Chicago puzzle and trying to figure out if there are more than two of the fenceposts with halos once one moves north past the Lincoln statue? From the previous posts on this thread it appears that there are only two: one where the group finding the casque dug first, and a second where they found the casque. Do any of the old-timers on the board know if this is accurate? Are there only two of the decorative fenceposts along this stretch of fencing and north of the statue? From my visit I saw two, but that does not mean there were not more in 1981-82. The thing is, once you look over Lincoln's shoulder, there is only one halo and fixture that would align. The other clues drive you there as well.

Durian wrote:: I've been toying with the Chicago puzzle and trying to figure out if there are more than two of the fenceposts with halos once one moves north past the Lincoln statue? Here is a photocopy of the original "map" that the finders sent to Preiss when they asked for help. I found it shown in a local news story last year. It identifies only two 'halo' fence structures. Could there have been more that they didn't put on the map? Sure. But if this helps you, wanted to throw it out there.

Durian wrote:: Fair warning… If you are easily offended at the idea the puzzles may include references to famous authors, literature, or even pop culture as clues, look away! There seem to definitely be literary references in many of the puzzles, IMO. I’ve pointed out a couple that may serve as clues related to possible dig sites—clues found in the imagery and specific to the last lines of a couple of verses. I’ve noticed other people over the years have seen literary references in places as well, such as erexere noting the Wizard of Oz references in the Roanoke puzzle. Anyway, I think I’ve found a clue in the Chicago puzzle involving J.M. Barrie’s Peter Pan stories. I think it’s tied to another clue involving the four letters capitalized in the verse: M B R and L, as well as the last lines of the verse. I’ll attempt to explain them… Starting with the letters, they seem to have been intentionally included as letters (as opposed to some other word clue) for a reason. My first thought is that they are missing vowels that spell a word when found. Assuming this is the case, we have the word ‘rumble’ late in the verse, so my thought is that maybe we’re supposed to seek the letters U and E to complete the word. I’m noticing the verse says: Seek the sounds Of rumble Pretty straightforward reference to the railway… But it’s also interesting that the verse says ‘sounds’ plural. Letters of course represent sounds, and since we already have M, B, R, and L, and since the E in ‘rumble’ is silent, going off the ‘seek the sounds’ instruction, maybe we should be looking for a U? The final lines of the verse seem to me to reinforce the idea that we are looking for this particular missing letter: Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. That’s five instances of the letter “U” in the last nine words of the verse, and four instances in the last five words... So, what’s in the general area of the railway? The fence. And the two fence-posts running between the Lincoln statue and E Jackson Drive each had their halo, or an inverted letter “U.” I think the puzzle is telling us to find them... Now for the Peter Pan part… Peter Pan was the invention of J.M. Barrie, a Scottish writer, so that works with the immigration reference. And the following things in the image also evoke Peter Pan, IMO: -The winged fairy of course could easily be Tinker Bell. -She’s pouring something that looks suspiciously like fairy dust—or pixie dust as it was called in the Disney movie. -She’s pouring the dust onto a plank, as in ‘walk the plank,’ which Captain Hook attempts to force Peter’s companions to do. -Speaking of Hook, there are a pair of hooks in the image. -And the main character of the Chicago image has pointed ears, as does Peter Pan. It’s interesting that the character is old, since Peter Pan is specifically the boy who never grows old… If this is supposed to be Peter Pan, I don't have a good explanation for why he is specifically presented old, except that he could also be doubling as Grant or Lincoln... Anyway, if these are all references to Peter Pan, there also seems to be an emphasis on flying—another hallmark of Peter Pan. The main character seems to be wearing a cap reminiscent of a pilot’s cap, under the larger Blarney Castle structure. I’m basing this off the fact the cap is tight to the skull and has an elongated ear. And of course fairy dust is the mechanism that allows Peter’s human companions to fly in both the Peter Pan books and the Disney movie, once they have been sprinkled with it. So how might this tie-in with the last lines of the verse and help solve the puzzle? Chapter four of Peter and Wendy is titled: The Flight. This chapter starts with the famous quote: " Second to the right, and straight on till morning. " This is the way you find Neverland when flying. Now if you are on the ground hunting treasure, and you’ve just passed the Lincoln statue heading north and you are seeking the sounds of rumble, you are going to naturally move toward the railway and fence. If you’ve picked up on the possibility that you should be looking for a “U,” you are most definitely going to notice the two fence-posts, especially since one of them is presented in the image. If the 10x13 clue isn’t enough to tell you exactly where to dig, second to the right could well be a clue confirming that it is the second fence-post with the inverted “U” that should be your target. Assuming you are facing the railing, it is the second fence-post to the right... I also think further confirmation that this is the intent of the Peter Pan references can be found in the last few lines: Brush and music is a pretty good description of the 1950’s Disney animated classic version of Peter Pan. Brush for the animation, and music because it’s full of songs… Why reference the movie as well as the books? Hush implies quieting something, like a baby or child. One of the more famous Disney songs from the movie is “ The Second Star to the Right. ” It’s a takeoff on the lullaby “ Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star ,” an old reliable when it comes to hushing babies… I like this. Fairy clues come in twos, and it seems that BP designed a lot of these puzzles to appeal to an audience both young and old alike. You've read my Methodology document, the NOLA puzzle appears to reference Alice in Wonderland, so why not Peter Pan for Chicago? In 1979 there was a major revival of Pater Pan on stage starring Sandy Duncan, which ran for several years. Chicago may have been on the list of tour cities, but certainly it was in the popular culture at the time.