One more obvious, possible confirmer, the surf depicted at bottom of painting seems like a reasonable confirmer for SHORE road/park. It’s simple, not stretching much I don’t think. So painting tie ins to south Brooklyn location:
– Surf for Shore Road/Park
– Face of woman for SOL
– Outline of painting resembling Verrazano bridge
NYC. Also agree with your post on the dots. I don’t think they are a vital clue to solving this puzzle. It might help confirm but there are plenty of other clues that could lead to a dig spot. The Charles Dickens tie in would crack this wide open, but there seem to be only a handful of “v”s in this area that would fit. May not absolutely need Charles Dickens clue, but it would be nice.
My interpretation of ‘rhapsodic man’s soil’ is that Preiss was simply saying that the treasure is buried in the ‘home turf’ of Gershwin (i.e. Brooklyn). Like saying Larry Bird’s home turf/stomping grounds are Indiana. Connotation is that this was the area of the country he was known for. A very general reference to Brooklyn.

davinci4

– Outline of painting resembling Verrazano bridge

My only question with this is why would the outline of painting 1 (San Francisco) also have the same curved arch on top? I get that 1/12 are kind of mirrors or bookends of the paintings, so they sort of match that way, but there’s no bridge in SF with the curved top like the Verrazano. The Golden Gate Bridge being the most likely bridge is rectangular, and the Oakland Bay bridge is as well.
Not that it’s that important, since we’re in agreement here about the location anyway, but: how can we say that the curved top in image 12 is from a bridge in NY, but the curved top in image 1 is not from a bridge in SF? Hope that makes sense.

Maybe the do have a resemblance too each other, Bridge and Tower, both arched frames and landmarks?? Verrazano bridge and Coit Tower
https://ibb.co/1ncX8bj
https://ibb.co/fvh1Q45

Arches could be the window/observatory opening on Chrysler building and Coit tower.
Or Queensboro Bridge!
https://tinyurl.com/y2o4nkvh

idyl

My only question with this is why would the outline of painting 1 (San Francisco) also have the same curved arch on top? I get that 1/12 are kind of mirrors or bookends of the paintings, so they sort of match that way, but there’s no bridge in SF with the curved top like the Verrazano. The Golden Gate Bridge being the most likely bridge is rectangular, and the Oakland Bay bridge is as well.
Not that it’s that important, since we’re in agreement here about the location anyway, but: how can we say that the curved top in image 12 is from a bridge in NY, but the curved top in image 1 is not from a bridge in SF? Hope that makes sense.

I believe that the arch is symbolic of a gateway. New York Harbor being its gateway for all the immigrants coming into Ellis Island. Entering SF, to go to Angel Island, would put you under the GGB no different then entering NY would put you under the Verrazzano.
I hope I explained that right..If not, Google it

Choice

Arches could be the window/observatory opening on Chrysler building and Coit tower.
Or Queensboro Bridge!
https://tinyurl.com/y2o4nkvh

See now you are just being annoying.

NYC. I hear you. Although the boards can sometimes get off track, I think you have a good thread going here. I too wish there was a better way to organize the info, Wikipedia style. Where we would pin virtual clues/leads on a board, and try to connect the dots with strings. Similar to old-fashioned detective movies.
With regards to this puzzle, I think we have narrowed down the search radius considerably and answered a lot of the verses, with particular attention to Shore Park. I think the missing link is “Him of Hard Word,” trying to see if we can somehow bridge the gap from what we have to the rest of the poem, paying particular attention to instructions at the cask site. Hoping we will have that “ah ha” moment where it all comes together.

Goonie68

One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V

Not so outlandish. And you don’t need the Brooklyn Navy Yard for it either. A whole stretch of what is now Shore Park used to be a Naval installation. Navy barracks….
https://www.heyridge.com/2016/02/the-untold-story-of-how-shore-road-almost-didnt-become-a-park/

Unknown

Unknown:
My best advice, find like minded people you can connect with, and make a study group off the forums.

I’m pretty sure that this is already happening. And I’m pretty sure that the one thing these groups have in common is a belief that whatever theory they are working on is better than all the other theories that others are working on. Like minded people are fine, but to the extent that 421 and I have made progress, it’s because initially, we couldn’t agree on anything.

davinci4

The Anatomy of the V:
1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS.

Let’s talk about v shaped paths.
Davinci, I am not picking on you or your Oliver St theory. You are not the first to question things about a v shaped path. I’m just using it an example.
I don’t care who you are. If you have a theory that the v shape is a path – it’s not a v shape.
V vs. Y is all a kerfuffle. It’s just something that someone throws up when they like a different spot with a path or thinks the V is not path related at all.
Directions: “Go up that way and bear left at the V.” Something normal humans say.
NO ONE nitpicks and says “bear left at the V – but really you know it’s a Y because the path you’re on now also counts so it’s not a V – gotcha!” That’s not a thing.
Davinci -if the path of approach (or anything else connecting to) counts, Oliver St is not a V either. When adding the sidewalk, it’s a crazy Y like #2 below. None of that mean’s it’s not Oliver st. It just means “Y” shaped paths are not disqualified.
Below are some other examples of a V path – with other stuff attached. Are none of them V’s?
Cause if you’re using a path the ONLY one that’s a true V is the last one.
A path that’s a V in a sea of grass. With no way into it or out of it. Which would be pretty dumb. I don’t think BP set this up so that you can only solve it if you parachute in….
…End of rant….

LOL. Good point Kang. One could see how Preiss might have picked his “v” based on any one of the diagrams you have provided. …I like the Oliver St “v” but only because I don’t have a better one.
I am running under the assertion (hopefully) that “Him of Hard word” will pinpoint our final site. I guess I am stuck on the idea that the v is a path because he asks us to walk from one branch. If it was a V (Roman numeral 5) on a monument that would seem to fit. Why would you have to start at one branch. Maybe the question is what are things could be a V?
Kang. Just curious. We have had some great discussion over the last two weeks on this thread. I am still not convinced we have got the correct spot either. Are you leaning towards one area? Are we too narrow in just focusing on Shore Park? Will we always question the location until “Him of Hard word” makes sense with respect to a specific cask site?
Feel like we are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel, but haven’t gotten there (yet).

Unknown

Unknown:
hope to dig it soon

Wow. Houston, and now New York. Sounds ambitious. The best of luck to you Matt.

I had to take some time off and really consider some options and methods.
The possibilities are endless with this puzzle. It has been amazing to see us all read and look at the same thing and still come up with so many different perspectives. And although I seem harsh when commenting on others ideas, I am not trying to personally bash you. I am however bashing the hell out of your theory , most of the time.
I am not convinced nor can I be, that BP and JJP changed their styles, personalities and ignored what was written in the book just to make a more challenging puzzle in image 12/v10. the immigration issue is a big one. I do think the lost spot in this hunt will have specific ties to Russian heritage. It seems out of range to think that it will be a loss association like saying it is in Brooklyn, Gershwin is from there, so anywhere in Brooklyn is Russian related or Brooklyn has a lot of Russian Immigrants, thus the connection.

maltedfalcon

hope to dig it soon so no and yes, otherwise I wouldn dig

Best of luck to you!! I do hope this thing is coming to a close soon!

Unknown

Unknown:
And although I seem harsh when commenting on others ideas, I am not trying to personally bash you. I am however bashing the hell out of your theory , most of the time.

There is, IMO, only one way this puzzle is going to be solved legitimately and NYC has summed it up nicely in the sentences above. Bash the hell out of any and all theories to see what survives the crucible. This can, however, be done respectfully. In other words, there is a vast difference between “you are stupid” and “your idea is stupid”.

Euhirudinea

There is, IMO, only one way this puzzle is going to be solved legitimately and NYC has summed it up nicely in the sentences above. Bash the hell out of any and all theories to see what survives the crucible. This can, however, be done respectfully. In other words, there is a vast difference between “you are stupid” and “your idea is stupid”.

Thank you!
This guy gets it!

We have got off track a little over last few days. Here is another idea I wanted to put out to the group.
The Anatomy of the V:
1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS.
2. “Simple roots”. I think this clue is a detail that may be slightly overlooked. Preiss has a habit of avoiding ambiguity when a potential choice needs to be made, a “choose your own adventure if you will.” In this puzzle for example, at the border of Manhattan there are several parkways, pick 278 ‘the one over the slender path’, 278 splits, pick Belt (vs BQE) because it’s near the shore. When faced with the choice of walking east from one branch, choose the one that leads to ‘simple roots.’ Presumably grass here. I am just theorizing, but I would imagine the cask location has two distinctly different terrains East from both branches of the v, hence the reason for including this detail. One major reason JPJ Park never worked for me.
Hope this helps a little when considering a location.

V also could mean 5 o’clock direction. Or one branch of 5.

Maybe?
One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V.
https://ibb.co/BChVJCy

davinci4

We have got off track a little over last few days. Here is another idea I wanted to put out to the group.
The Anatomy of the V:
1. V vs Y. In scouting potential dig spots one thought crossed my mind recently with regards to the “v”s when looking “in Shore Park. Most of them are “Y” or Forks. There are few true V paths that originate from a single point, like Oliver Street for example. Most are paths that branch, like the former one at Fort Hamilton HS.
2. “Simple roots”. I think this clue is a detail that may be slightly overlooked. Preiss has a habit of avoiding ambiguity when a potential choice needs to be made, a “choose your own adventure if you will.” In this puzzle for example, at the border of Manhattan there are several parkways, pick 278 ‘the one over the slender path’, 278 splits, pick Belt (vs BQE) because it’s near the shore. When faced with the choice of walking east from one branch, choose the one that leads to ‘simple roots.’ Presumably grass here. I am just theorizing, but I would imagine the cask location has two distinctly different terrains East from both branches of the v, hence the reason for including this detail. One major reason JPJ Park never worked for me.
Hope this helps a little when considering a location.

We are way off track that what was intended. But such is the chaos of trying to organize anything on a forum.
I think trying to find a v path, then a dig site is very premature at this point. We have a good idea of what we think the verse can mean but we have no idea if it is true.
We have taken the verse and used it to describe a neighborhood. It can very well be that the verse was just describing a much smaller area, maybe something inside a park. Seems like a a waste of time trying to find a v path when all the questions leading up to the v have not been solved or settled.
Sometimes you have to go a few steps backwards to get a few steps forward. I don’t think we are going to get a lot out of any of these threads since it is just mostly absurd theories and interpretations over the occasional good lead (which gets ignored). My best advice, find like minded people you can connect with, and make a study group off the forums. Otherwise, this is a giant waste of time.

Goonie68

Maybe?
One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V.
https://ibb.co/BChVJCy

Coastguard was part of transportation dept. not military then. That’s if you mean 5 branches. If V for victory, signing of the peace then sure.

NYCNative

That is what I thought but it seems others are trying to push another reality on this.

I don’t believe anyone is pushing a different agenda or reality. I believe that there HAS to be a better way to pinpoint where the casques were buried. Ever notice how all of the bulletproof solves always refine down to a general area? Ever notice how all of those solves yield the same results?
The point that I personally tried to make is even if you are in the correct 5 foot X 5 foot area, that is an enormous hole to dig. One that requires 1 of a few things to turn out successfully. Luck, ruthless digging, help from Preiss or a more accurate solution.
From what I’ve read here so far, you guys are only left with 2 of those options. Just because the found casques never refined down to an extremely accurate solution, that certainly doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one.
Setting the Chicago argument aside. Was it Preiss’ intention for whomever found the casque in Cleveland to dig out the entire planter after giving such clear directions to count stones in a specific direction? Or, was that person supposed to figure out the true location of the casque? “a LITTLE digging is your task.”

Bingo. I would argue that the Cleveland cask was a pretty confined space. When they started at the correct brick marker, it took 20 minutes to dig the hole if I am not mistaken. No GPR or pictures from Preiss.
I think it’s hard to say if you are dealing with a 5×5 area (or larger or smaller) because these puzzles work differently in that regard. For example, if you take one of the prevailing theories in Houston, the ‘treasure map’ was actually the painting which was a perspective drawing of the cask location. In Milwaukee, presumably it’s right next to a birch tree. I suspect the details in these paintings become more obvious when you are standing in the correct location.
Details regarding the presumed cask spot are where most ‘solutions’ start to fall apart, including my own. Two months ago, I was still trying to make JPJ Park work. I think this where people have to start analyzing their solutions. Put yourself in JPJ Park for example, and ask yourself, do things add up? There is a gazebo, cannon, cannon balls, obelisk monument, ship mast. Wouldn’t have JJP drawn influence from one or more of these potential markers? Why does 22 steps from every v put you in another insignificant patch of grass? It’s sometimes hard to analyze our own solutions, but very helpful if you are going to make strides going forward.
To quote TISOTGH, “sometimes the way to go forward is to go back.”

NYCNative

How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve?

I thought I answered this a page back. They didn’t fully solve the puzzle.
Are you arguing the side that says the intent was only to get close and mail in a solution?

Best of luck this weekend.
I’ve been excited about prospective digs in the past and I certainly understand where you guys are at. Have fun.

So where is 22 steps to the EAST of “v”? middle of street?

I guess we’ll find out on Saturday. I still feel weird about “22” steps being the accepted nomenclature. I know we know what we mean, but it could still cloud observation if it’s not actually 22 steps we’re looking for.
I also have been a staunch believer that taking steps (or more) from the V puts you in a limbo. Taking steps to the v from where you then look down and north. That’s a definitive end point.

While I’m still not convinced that the consensus here has narrowed down a spot that is reasonably and logically possible to locate a 5” square, multiple feet below ground, I hope you gain some valuable data going through the process.
Best of luck on the digging expedition.

phrabbott

I also have been a staunch believer that taking steps (or more) from the V puts you in a limbo.

The whole notion of walking 60ft, or a bit further as an instruction in a treasure hunt is completely absurd. People have rationalized it for whatever reasons over the years but it just doesn’t cut it.

I have to respectful disagree.
i think we have spent so much time over thinking this and questioning so many aspects of it that the number of possibilities to a solve makes us unsure, even when we have seemingly solved key points in the verse, which led us to the same spot that other have theorized in the past but for different reasons.
We started this thread just with the assumption that we should be in this neighborhood because of what we believed to be South of Bedloe. From there we got all the way to this point of in front of the high school. Not because of a rumor that BP went to that high school (which he did not) but because two separate lines of the verse brought us right there. Once there, the fact the the middle of the V shaped path lines up with the front of the school, its rectangle lawn, and the clock tower, all while still seeing a view of Bedloe in the distance. We got here organically from trying to decipher the verse, which is very hard to do in any spot. The fact that it matches up and the verse makes sense (not to mention the image clues that a few of us know as well and the Japanese hints) is for me, a dead give away that it is there.
I don’t understand what else is needed but a good probe and dig. Perhaps we are not impressed on what the solve can potentially be since we have other expectation that need to be met, just like Chicago and Cleveland.
I for one am all in on this, for the record. I have no reservations. I am just trying to be really patient in going to get it. Other then a giant neon LED sign saying, “dig here”, I don’t know what else is needed.
Please enlighten me if I am wrong about something here. This is solid, backed up with confirmation from the image and verse and excerpts from the book. What else do you need out of a solve?

NYCNative

a bunch of stuff

NYCNative

What else do you need out of a solve?

You should absolutely probe, dig, and whatever else you feel will forward your progress. However, you should also look for an alternative interpretation for
Take twice as many east steps as the hour
and
Or more
.
Precision

IF you actually are in the correct area, the work is just beginning.
The Chicago group was in the correct area regardless of the completeness of their solve. They dug for months. Even when they got some help from Preiss, they still never dug directly on top of the casque. It was found on the edge/bank of the huge hole they had dug.
The Cleveland guys were also in the correct area, but when they deciphered the verse literally and logically, there was no casque. It was found seemingly by chance on the other side of the planter with no accurate explanation why. (Don’t give me the reversed Greek names BS Gman, you would have dug in the same spot they did.)
My point is, we should all expect a “twist” or a “puzzle modifier” even IF we are ever lucky enough to find the correct area. Until that is properly deciphered, I’ll stay skeptically optimistic about future digs.
Again, best of luck.

Here is her “gaze north”, 9 o’clock direction from school’s clock tower.

GoldenMartyr

You should absolutely probe, dig, and whatever else you feel will forward your progress. However, you should also look for an alternative interpretation for
Take twice as many east steps as the hour
and
Or more
.
Precision

The or more is not clear to me as well but the spot seems to be precise enough. From the two solves we know, how precise was the directions on those locations? So why would be looking for an exact location through the verse or image?
That is why I think the alignment with the school, tower, and lawn are important. So at most, we are looking at a 5 x 5 area.
Hell yeah, I understand being skeptical and second guessing everything. We didn’t get this far without a lot of resistance (mostly by me). But if all the resistance is against the 22 step or more line and an exact spot, which nobody will get sitting at home, then I think we are good.

NYCNative

This is solid, backed up with confirmation from the image and verse and excerpts from the book. What else do you need out of a solve?

NYCNative

which nobody will get sitting at home…

Edited this post after re-reading your initial post and follow up. You get it. Also, I think I was belittling to the parts of the verse I’ve used to get to the school (before hamilton or dickens are even involved) which I’m actually quite proud of.
As far as the dig, we’ve latched onto an easy guess. Personally, I’m ok with this because I really believe major clues are missing after 40 years for all of these hunts and this may be the only way at this point to find any of them. I agree we should start there, but the neon sign only says “You have a reasonable hypothesis pointing to this area.”
GoldenMartyr summed up my earlier statement in one word. Precision. There are ways to read the verse that lead to exact spots, and there are ways to read it that don’t. We’re currently in the latter camp with this theory and we need to acknowledge that if we’re going to have success with our boots on the ground endeavor.
The sentiments I’ve been sharing all week. I’m not sure why we’re still talking about this unless someone actually comes up with some solid photographic information that leads to a definitive idea. Conjecture is a waste of breath if we’re actually going there soon. haha.

NYCNative

From the two solves we know, how precise was the directions on those locations?

Very precise, they just didn’t fully solve the puzzles. Well, Andy sort of did. Regardless, that only tells us that it is possible to dig up a casque without fully solving a puzzle.
I think this is a cool location, maybe not the correct location but that is just my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area, the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work and you can continue to work on the two lines till you get there. No need to wait.

GoldenMartyr

[my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area…

I have a hard time believing that any of these were described to that level of precision.

GoldenMartyr

Very precise, they just didn’t fully solve the puzzles. Well, Andy sort of did. Regardless, that only tells us that it is possible to dig up a casque without fully solving a puzzle.
I think this is a cool location, maybe not the correct location but that is just my opinion. The point I was getting at is, if BP intended to give precise instructions to a square foot area, the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work and you can continue to work on the two lines till you get there. No need to wait.

I am confused about the Chicago solve then. How did the verse/image give a precise square foot area after it was fully solved?
if I remember it correctly, wasn’t it about the 10 x 13 clue which was the tree lines with the gate in the image?

“a LITTLE digging is your task.”

GoldenMartyr

the current interpretation of lines 13 and 14 need more work

I thought for a while that Preiss was trying to line up with something in particular, hence the “or more.” He had the clue of twice the hour (twenty-two) but it didn’t quite get far enough to reach his specific spot. What spot and why that specific one? No clue.
Either that or it was an odd number of steps, like twenty-three, and the “or more” accounts for that one more past the “twice the hour” amount of steps. Not sure what one additional step would get you, but maybe this ties into the previous point about a specific location he was trying to reach.
In any case, there’s obviously/definitely something “more” to it than twenty-two steps.

idyl

In any case, there’s obviously/definitely something “more” to it than twenty-two steps.

Unpopular opinion: I still don’t think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we’ve seen so far, I think it’s more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he’s referencing the image.

phrabbott

Unpopular opinion: I still don’t think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we’ve seen so far, I think it’s more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he’s referencing the image.

Like a broken clock at the site, or a sign that says, “Park closes at 9:00”

gManTexas

I have a hard time believing that any of these were described to that level of precision.

Why? It’s already been proven.

phrabbott

Unpopular opinion: I still don’t think 22 will end up tying into this at all. I have no idea what does, but from what we’ve seen so far, I think it’s more likely that an hour is displayed on site than that he’s referencing the image.

After looking at those keywords from the Japanese hints, I found it interesting that the ‘v’ and ‘22 steps’ were not included. I got the impression at least for this puzzle (maybe others) that the keywords were the ‘armchair portion’ of the hunt whereby you use books, maps etc to solve them at home. It’s what left out of the keywords that I thought was interesting. It’s almost is if Preiss was saying a ‘v’ is a ‘v’ ‘22 steps is 22 steps’ -there is no riddle or double entendre here. Note all the included keywords seem to have a double entendre associated with them (ie slender path = narrows).
I also think Preiss included the “or more” to account for variance in human steps.

davinci4

I also think Preiss included the “or more” to account for variance in human steps.

Let’s hope that nobody has short strides.

I agree with Davinci on this. I think we are used to reading into things more then they should.
I also agree with Gman. I already asked the question about Chicago. How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve?

NYCNative

… about Chicago. How was this precise within a square foot after the full solve?…

Them’s fightin’ words yon city slicker….
You will not get a consensus answer to that question. Because there is question as to the exact dig spot.
(Depending on whether you choose to believe the most recent version of the dig spot – or whether previously other nearby spots that had been identified give you reason to doubt any/all of those). So it’s up to personal choice and opinion.
Also remember that as amazing as they did solving the puzzle, when it comes to the exact dig spot – Byron helped them. By sending them a picture of the freshly filled in hole. So it doesn’t have an end to end fully organic interpretation of the clues.

Kang

Them’s fightin’ words yon city slicker….
You will not get a consensus answer to that question. Because there is question as to the exact dig spot.
(Depending on whether you choose to believe the most recent version of the dig spot – or whether previously other nearby spots that had been identified give you reason to doubt any/all of those). So it’s up to personal choice and opinion.
Also remember that as amazing as they did solving the puzzle, when it comes to the exact dig spot – Byron helped them. By sending them a picture of the freshly filled in hole. So it doesn’t have an end to end fully organic interpretation of the clues.

That is what I thought but it seems others are trying to push another reality on this.
Thanks again Kangus!