forest_blight

Think about looking at JJP’s artwork outside of The Secret — once you’ve seen a bunch of it, you learn what aspects might be stylistic idiosyncrasies and probably have nothing to do with The Secret. For instance, if many of his works had glowing blue outlines, or colorful panels that look like color-blindness tests, those features in his paintings probably have no significance for The Secret and can be discounted.

Good point actually – never thought about doing that. First thing I hit up in Google image search…
Pretty Secret-esque in ways. Admit it, you’re looking for lat/long clues in those wrinkles already…

erexere

Why discuss JJPs artistry to that degree when its been largely established that he didnt design the puzzles or write the verses?

Because this is the Methodology Discussion forum. And JJP did have a hand in designing the puzzles. He even suggested one of the sites. I would not be surprised if Preiss wrote his Verses with input from JJP, or modified them in response to having seen the Paintings. Here’s how I imagine the Roanoke puzzle being discussed:
BP: “I hid a casque in Roanoke.”
JJP: “Great idea! Hey, I know, I’ll paint a little picture of Roanoke Island next to a window.”
BP: “Oo, good one! I’ll add a reference in the verse that reads ‘the land near the window’.”
JJP: “Brilliant!”
I was actually trying to support your point that we can learn by looking at other works by the same artists (Preiss included). I guess I wasn’t too clear. Saying that it is possible but unlikely is a lot more support than your ideas typically receive around here. Yes, absolutely, it’s
possible
that we can learn something from Preiss’s other works. But how much of The Secret did Preiss actually write? Certainly he wrote the Verses and headed up the project, but what else did he actually pen? It was a collaborative effort, and we are instructed that the Verses are the only text we need to attend to. But what else from his oeuvre would be informative about his poetry and riddles? Not much, I would argue. Nevertheless, I like the parallels you draw between the Verbs book and “The Secret.” I would even buy a copy, if it didn’t cost $2500 on amazon.com (I’m not even kidding). Any chance you could scan and post the book for us?
On the other hand, JJP has given us a
lot
of work since 1982, and work that is of the exact same sort (paintings and drawings), but minus the treasure-hunting elements. If we examine all of his work — and again, there is a lot — we can see what elements P1-P12 share with that other work and dismiss those elements as irrelevant. Perhaps some of the elements that remain are relevant to The Secret.
To be completely clear: I’m taking your point about Preiss and saying it is a good idea in principle, and that we can apply it to JJP’s artwork with even greater effectiveness.

I’ll try to control my compulsion to post useful info. But you go on with your instant knee-jerk (emphasis on jerk) nonsensical postings.

Choice

I’ll try to control my compulsion to post useful info. But you go on with your instant knee-jerk (emphasis on jerk) nonsensical postings.

I rest my case.

This is an idea but it is not based on anything. I could give you “up is north and down is south” if it worked in a solved puzzle. I do not see how you got “out is east and back is west.” I think the verses are clear. Up is up and down is down. Interesting Idea but I don’t see how it is useful.

I thought I should push this thread back up from page 4.
The words up, down, back and out may be used as directional pointers:
up = north
down = south
back = east
out = west
For example:
V02: Fifteen rows down to the ground
V10: Look down (south) Or gaze ‘north’
V01: Looking back (east) from treasure ground
V05: From the west side To dig out (west).

You never heard “out west” or “back east”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2xCLKNXmQ

Choice

You never heard “out west” or “back east”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2xCLKNXmQ

Was this available prior to the Wade Hayes release in 2000? If not, probably just Preiss using his time machine to make the 1981-82 era puzzles more difficult.

No genius, I was giving an example of out west, back east.
I’m sure the saying was used before the 80’s since it’s commonly used in the old western movies.

Compliment accepted.
My point is, the example would have been slightly less ridiculous if it was from one of your old western movies.

Put your T-rex lil hands to work and Google out west imdb

Doesn’t really work for down.
In Maine, Down East has been a thing a lot longer than your western movies and country songs. Just admit it was a dumb theory and we can all move on.

Have you ever eaten at Eastwest. I had a Bloomin’ Onion and it was delirious. Did I say Eastwest, I meant Outback. My bad, you know how the words are interchangeable.

BINGO

Doesn’t really work for down.
In Maine, Down East has been a thing a lot longer than your western movies and country songs. Just admit it was a dumb theory and we can all move on.

I’ve heard of down south, not down east. Anywho, don’t use it if you don’t think it’s plausible. Just don’t have a cow man!

Choice

I thought I should push this thread back up from page 4.
The words up, down, back and out may be used as directional pointers:
up = north
down = south
back = east
out = west

I don’t know this was actually used, but it is totally plausible to me as a method.

maltedfalcon

I don’t know this was actually used, but it is totally plausible to me as a method.

It’s possible for individual situations and even then more likely to be coincidence. As an all encompassing methodology, ridiculous.
If I’m wrong, I’ll gladly admit it and apologize. Until then, there is some real work that needs to be done to take this theory to the level of method.

The whole reason I posted on this thread was so that I don’t have to post on 1/2 dozen image threads and then I’d hear from the usual reactive suspects about posting too many times. Control your reactive (today’s word) tendencies.

I’ll control my reactions when you control your compulsions.
Tit for tat. It’s a vicious cycle.

So the point of my post was that there may be alternate meaning to up/down/out/back; perhaps directional pointers like a compass.
Then reactively reject the idea and then suggest that down may mean east which is also a directional pointer. So great, we agree!
In fact I like to expand on my theory and add directional numbers; i.e. 12/north, 3/east, 6/south and 9/west.
Did anyone find a match for the NY clock with only 4 digits on the face?
Down for east works perfectly well for the NY puzzle.
So Matt in his previous post was very sure that he has a match for the clock and eagle. Does the clock have only 4 digits?

Anyone for toast and coffee this morning?

Choice

I’ve heard of down south, not down east. Anywho, don’t use it if you don’t think it’s plausible. Just don’t have a cow man!

well it is a thing. in fact…i am taking the Amtrak DOWNEASTER to portland this weekend.

Come on strike, let’s not let facts get in the way of an amazingly productive theory…

Unknown

Unknown:
i am taking the Amtrak DOWNEASTER to portland this weekend

“Down East” is a regional idiom, in much the same way the folks in New Jersey say “down the shore”, or the way Texans divide their state into north, south, east, and west when referring to another part of the state. It’s perfectly valid, but something I think BP would have avoided in a puzzle designed to appeal to the whole of North America.
An apropos of nothing, Maine is the only state east of the Mississippi River that I have never set foot in. Have a great trip.

Euhirudinea

“Down East” is a regional idiom, in much the same way the folks in New Jersey say “down the shore”, or the way Texans divide their state into north, south, east, and west when referring to another part of the state. It’s perfectly valid, but something I think BP would have avoided in a puzzle designed to appeal to the whole of North America.
An apropos of nothing, Maine is the only state east of the Mississippi River that I have never set foot in. Have a great trip.

You are really missing out!! If you ever make it up to Boston you should DEFINITELY check maine out. Portland is awesome…has a lot to offer….good food…good beahs…good scenery. It’s only like an hour and 45 mins from Bos.

Goonie68

After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk

I like it. There are some parallels and possible inspiration at play with this.
I would be excited to see if this can be expanded upon enough hone in on actual locations.

regardless of current values or past values
The complexity of solving the puzzles today probably has no relation to the complexity of solving the puzzles in 1981
as each site has undergone many changes over time.
there is no possible way to estimate complexity, based on missing or changed ground features. clues that have moved or simply disappeared orreferences that have been obliterated by time.
perhaps the most complex puzzle is the least changed and the simplest no longer even exists.
While an interesting tidbit and a fact that BP said the puzzles vary in complexity with the value of the jewels.
It is also a fact BP was atrociously awful at estimating puzzle complexity and how long it would take for a puzzle to be solved.

maltedfalcon

regardless of current values or past values
The complexity of solving the puzzles today probably has no relation to the complexity of solving the puzzles in 1981
as each site has undergone many changes over time.
there is no possible way to estimate complexity, based on missing or changed ground features. clues that have moved or simply disappeared orreferences that have been obliterated by time.
perhaps the most complex puzzle is the least changed and the simplest no longer even exists.
While an interesting tidbit and a fact that BP said the puzzles vary in complexity with the value of the jewels.
It is also a fact BP was atrociously awful at estimating puzzle complexity and how long it would take for a puzzle to be solved.

MF, I was not referring to the actual casque locations, but rather the complexity of the puzzles themselves. Before we could even begin to dig somewhere, the puzzle from the particular Image and Verse combo has to be mostly figured out. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that it is 1982 right now and we are seeing things on the ground as they were. This has no bearing on how much brain power I have to use to figure out each one. Chicago was simplistic. Cleveland was a little harder. Milwaukee a bit harder yet, and so forth.

After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk

My execution earlier today hasn’t panned out very well. The trial idea where I take 1) iconic landmark and 2) jewel position, and try to sync them together with a geometry that makes sense on the map isn’t looking convincing. The part that works against the idea is there’s no good indicator for North.
When I take into consideration a word definition that is strongly connected to the target landmark, then I have a specific kind of characteristic that might be paired with some other image target. With the Terminal Tower the word “terminus”, meaning “the end of an extremety or final point of something” or in architecture it’s “a figure of a human bust or an animal ending in a square pillar from which it appears to spring, originally used as a boundary marker in ancient Rome.” There is the figure of the sphere in the image and it’s terminus or the place from which it springs is at the base. When I connect that point to the location of the jewel, I have a line that has approximately the correct slope as the line drawn on the map that connects the Terminal Tower to the Greek Garden. When I connect the base of the Terminal Tower in the image to the end point of the Centaur’s tail, that slope matches as well. This works with the image flipped vertically,

The trouble with your sketch below is the map is definitely a point between two lines.
however you arbitrarily picked the points on the image so that it matched your lines.
you are forcing it.
for instance why that spot on the terminal tower. other than it lines up with your other line

I chose the base point of the tower because that might qualify as a terminus in the sense that the the tower springs from that boundary of the painting. It qualifies as forced just as much as terminal vs terminus offers the instructional motif.
Its radical and slim, but I’m not giving up on it yet. Thanks for the input.

It would be nice to see Shecrab complete her linear analysis of the verses.  That was some of the most cerebral work Ive seen on these boards.  More of that kind of approach might help us understand the subtleties at work.

Hey arm chair treasure hunters,
As many of you know, I joined this forum in January 2018 right after the episode of Expedition Unknown in an effort to research and understand The Secret. Little did I know at the time that I would get so wrapped up and have the chance to visit almost half of the sites myself. It has been a really interesting year.
Almost from the beginning, I felt that there was a lack of approach from the methodology standpoint. I understand that many people are interested in one particular puzzle or location, so the focus is narrow, but I feel that any project has a method behind it. The book “The Secret” is no exception. I have written a document regarding the Methodology and would like to share it to stimulate conversation and move this hunt forward. Some of this work has involved taking bits and pieces of research posted on this forum, but most of it is from analysis of the book itself.
This document is a work in progress, although it is complete enough at this time to release the First Edition. I am currently working on some of the puzzles and connections as you will see in the document. It is a rather lengthy document, so it may be best to download and read offline.
I would like to give a special thanks to Goonie68 who has been instrumental in helping develop parts of this Methodology. There are a few others that I have credited in the document as well.
Enjoy, and happy hunting!
~ gManTexas
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHk7l … OpEYHqgPkM

I have read through countless posts from the past several years and have noticed many good theories have been put out there only to be swallowed up by the not-so-helpful ramblings of ‘experts’ in the field of ‘Because I Said So..’ Eventually, some of the theories resurfaced and seemed to get a better reception. Maybe the timing was better, or maybe the others had given up or got kicked out. Either way, I keep thinking to myself, It can’t be this hard. Can it? I feel like I may have missed something in all this, so I wanted to back up and start over to see if I can wrap my head around this mystery. So, let’s say I am new to this story and I am trying to figure out not only how to match the Images and Verses but why Mr. Preiss chose to do what he did the way he did. Even more importantly, I want to know how he went about setting up the hunt in the first place. I guess that would be Methodology. So here we are.
Believe it or not, I have put a little time in on this. (not as much as others, but in fairness, I didn’t even know about this until last year) I understand that there are twelve Images which pair with the twelve Verses. The Images give you visual clues about the correct geographical area, which has a historical immigration connection, and the Verses give you further clues once you are in the correct city as to where the dig location is. Makes sense. It is a big treasure hunt puzzle. There is no ‘X’ in the Image marking the dig spot, and there is no step-by-step instruction in the Verse alone to get you there. We need both Image and Verse, or this puzzle won’t work. The instructions even tell us this. The Images and Verses are not numbered in a way that they match themselves, so there needs to be some method of connecting one to the other. There would need to be a clue in the Image as to which Verse pairs with it, or a clue in the Verse as to which Image pairs with it. It could be a word, a phrase, or some other clear reference from one to the other. Otherwise, how do we make the connection? More on that later.
Now, it is 1980-ish, and I want to write a book. If I want to write a book about elves and fairies and far-off lands, I can do that. If I want to tell the story of their fleeing the old world with “dreams of freedom and contentment” I could write a wonderful tale of man versus nature… and so on. But I want something more unique. I want to create a game for people to play where they search their own backyards for some buried treasure. I want to make it fun, entertaining, educational and unique, but I can’t make it too hard, because people will eventually just give up and this will have been all for naught. Now let me think how I want to market this fairy treasure hunt. Who is my target audience? Children? Nah. They have Sesame Street to keep them busy. Retirees? While they do have some time on their hands, they are not likely to travel the country and dig holes for fun. Grown adults with “real jobs” won’t want to spend any of their free time on a treasure hunt. That would just be silly, Right? So those groups aren’t going to work. Who is left? I know, my target demographic will be.. teenagers, maybe early 20’s, mostly male, you know.. “D&D Nerds” (I’m only quoting the show here.) These kids already have a gaming mindset. They like fantasy themes. They have entire summers off to go get lost in nature. They are also less likely to stop and think, “Maybe I shouldn’t be digging a giant hole in this park in the middle of the night.” So, I write my book and include a task for all the world’s aspiring adventurers to go forth and seek buried treasure!
Here is the catch: This group of young treasure hunters would have limited resources. They likely aren’t well-versed in cartography, 19th century manuscripts, or determining the complex algorithms hidden in the everyday world. They probably have little or no money to travel. There is no internet. There are no chatrooms. Back then you just went to the book store, bought the book, grabbed a buddy, and got to work. If you were super-confident, you grabbed a shovel on your way out the door. Libraries may have been helpful but were likely not an absolute necessity. After all, you already have the only book you need. Why would you need to go to the library? Now, supposedly, you can just go out and dig up a treasure using only an Image and Verse pairing. The rest of the book is reportedly not needed to find the treasure. Although, I am starting to think that Image-and-Verse-only thing is not entirely correct. I believe it was said that one
could
find the treasure using only the Image and Verse pairing, but I think it should go on to say that method is not recommended. The rest of the book contains important information which may prove helpful.
So, we have the book and a buddy and a shovel, because confidence is key. And lucky for us, we just happen to live in one of the 12 treasure cities. Now what? How do we match the Image to the Verse? I don’t know. Is it as simple as matching the words in a Verse to what we see in an Image? I mean, Verse 4 tells us to “Seek the columns for the search” and Image 4 has columns in it. Boom! Found it! But then, Image 2 would match with Verse 1 “No lion fears” and Image 1 with Verse 9 “With wind rose” and so on. Maybe the birthstones and flowers in the Images are the key? But why both? If we are looking for specific months, the stones should suffice. Unless, because some stones look similar, the flowers simply confirm the month. Maybe we are supposed to be looking for month confirmers in the Verses? Nope, the only months in the Verses are May, July, August, and December. July and August… and December are mentioned in the same Verse, and December is in two Verses. Seems the month connection may be lost there. Maybe just by reading all the Verses and studying all of the Images, someone familiar with the area would be able to put it together. That seems to be how it worked for the first found treasure in Chicago. However, they almost missed it.
By most accounts of the find back in ’83 it was a combination of intelligence, creativity, perseverance, and a little luck. If I remember correctly, one of the Chicago Crew later recalled having a conversation with Mr. Preiss about the location. Among other talking points, they discussed the “end of ten by thirteen” clue. Once thought to be 130 degrees using a protractor, the question about the trees was raised. They were told to go back and look at the trees again. Here is the issue with this: In 1983, within one year of this book being published, a key clue marker is already gone. One of the trees which was apparently used to mark the dig site was no longer there. Now, one could ask why it was no longer there, but that is not the main issue. The biggest problem here is that the landscape changed enough in one year to almost prevent the discovery of a treasure. If Preiss used this method of marking dig sites, or even waypoints, with natural objects, he must have considered that those things would likely change over time. This means one of two things: Either there are backup clues in the Images or Verses which can confirm locations in the event the landscape changed, or Preiss truly thought the treasures would be found so quickly that everything would be exactly as it was when he buried it. And if his intention was that these puzzles would be solved and the treasures found quickly, he would have to ensure that they were not too difficult. He would also need to have all of the treasures in place and the book published within a short timeframe or risk losing everything. So, how exactly did he go about getting it all set up?
It got me thinking. If I went off to bury 12 fairly important objects all over North America, how would I do it? How long would it take? How much time do I have with all my other projects going on? Do I fly or drive? Where do I stay? I really need to think this through. In the end, I must have all of the treasures in the ground and allow for the disturbed earth to return to a more natural look before people set out to locate them. Otherwise, it would be pretty obvious where to dig. Also, I don’t want to be stuck digging in frozen ground, so maybe there is a better time of year to do all this. Is that what the months are for? Oh well, where is my shovel? There is a funny story of Preiss going through airport security with a shovel, but just that one time, I think. I don’t recall reading that he ever said anything like, “Every time I went through security with a shovel…” or something to that effect. And if you don’t want security asking about the shovel, why not just buy a shovel when you get there? However, regardless of whether he had a shovel when he went through security, he would have certainly had the plexiglass box and ceramic casque with him, right? Wouldn’t that have raised some questions? I know security was not what it is today. Depending on the airfield, it may not have been any more than, “What’s that?” … “Not a bomb.” … “Ok. Move along. Move along.” I know we are talking about pre-9/11 but it was also post-D.B. Cooper. There was an awareness. While a shovel may have been more easily explained away, a funny-looking object in a plastic box might have made more of an impression on the folks at the security checkpoint. They probably would have had him explain what he was doing and his need to bring it on board and then called a coworker over and had him tell the whole story again. We all know how that goes. Why risk it? Just Drive.
So, I am trying to get this treasure hunt going. I am in the pre-planning stage and trying to figure out how to get the casques buried all over the country. Do I wait until I get there to research the area and jot down some clues for my Verses? Likely not. All of the research could be done from back home. Immigration references, maps, historical places and people, popular attractions and events could all be thoroughly researched and documented, and the main themes to each location could be hammered out well before I set off a-diggin’. Sure, there may be some things I wouldn’t know until I got there, but I think most of it could be sorted out in advance. That way, when I do get to my predetermined location, all I really need to do is bury the treasure, do a little recon to be sure my research is correct, snap a few photos for my good friend John Palencar and head out. Repeat this process eleven more times, and I’m good to go. Now I am no artist, but let’s say one who paints for a living could create one Image per week. (I really have no concept of the time it takes. I’m just guessing.) That would be a minimum of 12 weeks, plus any other drawings and illustrations. Then we need to make some prints, or at the very least, I need to check them out before I put them in the book. I may need to do a little editing, run it by the legal department, blob over any obvious areas that might give it away, etc. That could take some time. Should I rethink this strategy?
Provided that I have the research completed, the storyline written up, the casques and keys created, the plexi-boxes made, the jewels secured in my safe, and a cheat sheet of sorts in case I forget how I paired the Images and Verses or where the dig sites are… or, God forbid… my only task now is to bury the boxes and publish the book. There are three ways all this comes about: I could go get everything buried and then start on the book. That would ensure the treasures are in place before my readers go looking for them. However, somebody might stumble on a treasure well before the book is released, and then there would be nothing for the treasure seekers to find. Or possibly an important clue, say a tree, goes missing in the meantime. On the other hand, I could get everything around for the book and then go bury the treasures. But what if the book is released before I get everything buried? It is unlikely, but it is something to think about. If I was unable to bury the treasures before people started looking for them, there would be people out there digging in the right spot but not finding anything. My other option is to go city-to-city burying the boxes, taking the photos and mailing them back to Palencar who will complete the paintings in rapid succession to be added to the storyline, which is already complete, and just a short time after the final brush stroke, the book is printed and released. How much time do I have for all this? Maybe I had better get everything else done well before I go dig the holes.
Whatever we decided on, the holes were dug, the treasures are in place, and the book was released. Hopefully, nothing changes, and all treasures will remain safely buried until dug up by one of the readers – whenever that may be. Wow, with all that hard work, and the lengths everyone went to in order to ensure the success of The Secret and the integrity of the hunt, I should keep tabs on the locations to make sure this puzzle remains solvable. If for some reason the treasures are not found quickly, maybe I will release another book with updated Verses or at the very least print some hints in local papers or something, right? I should definitely keep this alive until they are all found. Maybe. Unless this is the true intention of the game.
How do you keep an idiot in suspense? So here we all are. Grown adults with real jobs spending our free time on a ‘silly game’ from nearly 40 years ago. Only a handful of people can say they have actually dug up a buried treasure. If nothing had ever been found, I would have to say this was all an elaborate hoax designed to sell more copies of the book. The fact that even one treasure was unearthed means that these puzzles are solvable. Or at least they were. A lot can happen in four decades. I would have to say this was a well-thought-out puzzle game that not only got the readers involved in the fantastic world of fairies and treasures, it made them go outside and experience the world around them. It would be nice to find another one, but I think we are relying too much on the overly-complicated, technologically-driven methods of today’s world and forgetting that this was all thought up around 1982. Strangely, I think what is making this so difficult is that it was designed to be simple and straight-forward. I just don’t know. Byron Preiss was many things. In the end, he may have simply been too clever. I mean, It can’t be this hard. Can it?

UnprovenFact – Great post!
Your post talks more about the method of burying the casques, so let’s dig into that a bit. I personally take some of the statements attributed to BP with a grain of salt. There are probably seeds of truth in some of the stories, but he had to promote the book, so things may have been embellished. The tale of the shovel is a great example. It is difficult looking through the lens of a post 9/11 world and conceiving that you could bring certain things through security, but I can attest to the fact that security was extremely lax beforehand, especially in the 70s and early 80s. Some smaller regional airports were more or less open and if you looked like a businessperson, they would just waive you through. A shovel would not have been a problem at all.
My theory is that BP probably coordinated some of the travel with business trips to symposiums, other publishers, sellers, etc. At a minimum, maybe as a write off for business expenses. In some cases, the scope of the puzzle and the level of detail (to me) indicates how much time he had on the ground. New Orleans appears to be well thought out with a high level of detail (not to be confused with difficulty), but Houston seems rather simple with few details. I would reckon that he went to NOLA, had a great time and chewed up his schedule. Possibly took the train to Houston and was limited in what he could do there, even though the prize of a ruby is much more expensive than a turquoise in New Orleans. So we have a matter of practicality which had to balanced against the worth of the gems and the difficulty of the puzzles.
I suspect that geography plays into this. Being a native of NY would give him a lot of time to research the NY, Boston, and potentially Montreal puzzles. Then spending time in the SF area allowed for time there. Chicago seems like a hit and run job. Cleveland, while simple, seems much more thought out.
None of this is to say that up-front work was not done, I believe there was. However once on the ground, you have to find connections to match the narrative of the book, and write the Verses.

Durian, one observation that I’d like to make is that we have to take the clues somewhat collectively and see where the thing flows. As others have pointed out, Twain could be connected to just about everything, but when we look at the other lines of the Verse, it tends to narrow our choices down.
Further to your point, in broader brush strokes, rather than focusing on the minutiae, if we look for more general things then the choices are even easier. There was a discussion a while back about what would people think of if you asked them about Mark Twain. Instant reactions are somewhat limited to things like: The Mississippi River, steamboats, Books, newspapers, maybe a jumping frog, etc.

UnprovenFact

(1) Grown adults with “real jobs” won’t want to spend any of their free time on a treasure hunt. That would just be silly, Right? So those groups aren’t going to work. Who is left? I know, my target demographic will be.. teenagers,
(2) The biggest problem here is that the landscape changed enough in one year to almost prevent the discovery of a treasure. If Preiss used this method of marking dig sites, or even waypoints, with natural objects, he must have considered that those things would likely change over time.
(3) “Every time I went through security with a shovel…” or something to that effect. And if you don’t want security asking about the shovel, why not just buy a shovel when you get there? However, regardless of whether he had a shovel when he went through security, he would have certainly had the plexiglass box and ceramic casque with him, right? Wouldn’t that have raised some questions?
(4) Maybe I had better get everything else done well before I go dig the holes.
(5) I should keep tabs on the locations to make sure this puzzle remains solvable. If for some reason the treasures are not found quickly, maybe I will release another book with updated Verses

Hi, Great post – but I have some issues with some of your ideas.
So besides a couple other things in your post that I just disagree with, these are 5 things you got factually wrong.
(1) The secret came out in November to take advantage of the Christmas shopping season. – The target market was People buying Christmas presents for others. The target demographic was intended to match the demographic of the book Masquerade and hopefully match the sales too. While Masquerade looked like a children’s picture book, It’s target market was adults 23-50 and that’s where it made most of it’s sales.
(2)He did not consider that, as he fully expected all the casques to be found within 6 months to a year. his biggest worry was that they would be found so quickly the hunt would be over before it started and he could capitalize on it with more sales based on all the expected news coverage.
(3) No since the casque, key and plexiglas box would have been inside his checked luggage, No one would have opened it or looked in it on a domestic flight, so no questions at all. (the shovel simply didn’t fit in his luggage)
(4) since we have identified images and ephemera found at the dig sites, used in the images. we know he would have had to bury the casques prior to the paintings being finished.
(5) your logic is exactly backwards, since no progress was made on the hunt – there was no interest or ready market for a second book, Write the project off as a loss and move onto other projects with a better chance of financial success.

Durian

Exactly. To use my metaphor of a test, why would a question about Twain be included in the test? Probably because the person who designed the test knows we studied the point in question and are prepared for it. Back in school, exams covered what we are supposed to know, to see if we studied and paid attention in class. Asking obscure questions nobody studied for is a great way to guarantee people will fail.
Now if you are designing a puzzle, it needs to be challenging but fair, with things that the average person had at least somewhat ‘studied for’ simply by being a part of the culture. How disappointed (and turned-off to the puzzle) would we all be if we discovered the riddles of the verses are unreasonably detailed and full of tenuous connections? If I took a literature course on Mark Twain, and part of the curriculum involved reading Huckleberry Finn and a biography about Mark Twain, I’m going to be pissed-off if the instructor asks a question on the final exam where the answer concerning the life and work of an American icon is ‘Verdi.’
I sincerely doubt Preiss and co. were scouring encyclopedias to create obscure clues. Your point about ‘instant reactions’ is
much
more likely and probably spot-on. The writer(s) of the verse saw a steamboat, frog, Mississippi reference, etc. and said ‘Aha! I’ve got something that will work here: Twain!” That would be their ‘instant reaction’ to a photo Preiss took of a steamboat, for instance. They would expect that it would also be the ‘instant reaction’ of their audience. IMO we ignore the obvious at our own peril.

I believe we are going to deviate here. Let’s take the somewhat obscure literary references in some of the verses, or perhaps not so obscure, like Treasure Island. We have to first figure out that Treasure Island and Robert Louis Stevenson are referenced. Then we have to figure out why, and what is connected to that. This would all take a trip to the library and or the encyclopedia.
I think one of the failings of the puzzles and the book as a whole, is that a really intelligent man misjudged his audience. He injected too much of his teachings (humanities) into the puzzles. If we stay with the Treasure Island clue, what the heck does that have to do with Charleston? On the surface, yes, pirates. But that doesn’t give us much to go on, since we could have pirate activity in a lot of places.

Durian, yes, I probably didn’t write what I should have. Some of the clues may be obscure, but I believe they are connected to something not obscure. So, the Treasure Island clue in the end might just point us to an object or event that is relatively easy to figure out. Maybe with some historical research.
BTW, my current line of thinking about that, coupled with the Japanese edition clues, is that in May 1913 a ship was blown up in Baltimore. The ship was named the Alum Chine. The ship was named after the area in England of the same name. Robert Louis Stevenson had a home there where he wrote part of Treasure Island, which is referenced earlier in the Verse for Charleston.
This gets us thinking about ships that were blown up, and of course everyone “Remembers the (USS) Maine”. Or should at least from history class.

fox

Also, dont forget that the Cleveland Image was connected, via the story and the I’s jewel, to the Hellas.  Although the Greeks call the country Hellas or Ellada (Greek: Ελλάς, Ελλάδα) and its official name is Hellenic Republic, in English the country is called Greece.  This casque was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens.

That LOJ connection really does a number on us doesnt it?  As long as BP maintained a cultural distinction between jewels then it remains likely the LOJ will identify with things to some extent, but to say Clevelands connection follows the association isnt sound.
May i suggest Milwaukee is the Polish connection?  I might also suggest Montreal is the French connection, where a puck is smuggled to Vancouver, B.C…

erexere

May i suggest Milwaukee is the Polish connection?  I might also suggest Montreal is the French connection, where a puck is smuggled to Vancouver, B.C…

Hang on a minute…the connections are explicitly set out through the association of each image with a gem, and the litany which ties each gem to a nationality. France corresponds with New Orleans, and Poland doesn’t come into it.
1 San Fransisco – China (Chinatown?)
2 Charleston – Africa
3 Roanoke – England (Elizabethan Gardens / Lost Colony)
4 Cleveland – Greece (Greek garden)
5 Chicago – Ireland
6 Florida – Spain (Ponce de Leon)
7 New Orleans – France
8 Houston – Arabia
9 Montreal – Dutch (Fur trade? See P27 footnotes)
10 Milwaukee – Germany
11 Boston – Italy
12 New York – Russia (Gershwin?)

I get that, but isnt there some healthy skepticism that the actual jewel locations were not based on the Litany?  One person claiming to have had a conversation with Preiss recalls him saying that.  The writings other than the verse were essentially seperate from his secret casque site selections depending only on the verses, right?

erexere

I get that, but isnt there some healthy skepticism that the actual jewel locations were not based on the Litany?  One person claiming to have had a conversation with Preiss recalls him saying that.  The writings other than the verse were essentially seperate from his secret casque site selections depending only on the verses, right?

Egbert

Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations.  However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites. He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have no connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues.

Nope, quite the contrary…
Note that Preiss discounted the pages
following
the verses. It’s clear that the images connect with the litany, which falls in the middle of the introductory notes, despite people’s reluctance to look at them. Also note that Preiss confirmed that the fairies’ country of origin is connected with the sites. In other words, the book has additional clues besides the images and verses.

Parks have been seen as the likeliest place to find a casque now since the two found were in parks.  It’s a good bet that others might be in parks as well.  Reference to at least one point followed by an general area and a strict angle seemed to be used; we can see the method applied to Chicago’s fence fixture and then picking a line directly to it, and perpendicular to the wall perimeter and in the middle of 10 by 13 trees.  Cleveland had some very specific instructions, but Egbert dug extensively before finding the shattered box.
I believe Preiss worked to use the most stable environments for his hunt.  Historic sites, monuments, memorials, things of rock, engravings, facades, and street names.  Time affects these items in the least way.  Some historic sites get bulldozed, some streets get renamed like MLK.  Most parks stay well maintained once established.  I doubt he’d pick a park that was on the outs.
Image 5 had a bunch of visual elements to satisfy an erratic trek through around and through the general area of Grant Park.  Image 4 had just a few: terminal tower, twin columns, and a wall.  What wasn’t utilized in either was the main personality in each image.  There wasn’t a giant with a hat unless it was a metaphor for Abe Lincoln, and there wasn’t a centaur.  Use of an iconic starting point and a combination of picture and word clues helps navigate by street names.  When you think about, there’s a number of basic ways to communicate a set of directions or path instructions.  Whether an image uses one approach or two, we’ll have to be attentive to all conceivable navigational methods.
The FOY theory lands you at the park directly. I didn’t catch any mention of street name methods or Iconic structures in the area.  Image 6 doesn’t offer a whole lot of elements beyond the one personality of Ponce de Leon and so it becomes a more abstract word search and descriptive approach.  The non-linear aspect of that approach defies anything simple as lining up a visual confirmer with a description.  A palm tree in the background doesn’t seem unique enough.  The white rock in the water looks like the thing to be found…but nobody has found that exact rock in FOY…what happened to it?  Is the iceberg next to tree a visual metaphor or complex rebus like eyes-berg[amot] + tree, as in “see a citrus tree”?  The horse and rider are both upon a higher peak, looking down and away from the white rock.  How does this image play out according to the methods used in Image 4 or 5?  So far, from what I’ve read and seen in the highlighted and circled images, I see a major departure from the empirical view.  There are excellent descriptions and word matches to places and fixtures like the observatory and salt cellar but they don’t connect as simply as the columns did to the rectangle and wall of image 4.  FOY is a mess despite all the love and attention it’s been given.
My personal theory on Image 6 applies to Verse 5 and uses the “222” as a highway and exit number.  The road climbs and curves to a vista where the first historic site has a plaque that advertises the heaviness of the monument: “here sits a 50-ton boulder in honor of Sam Hill…”.  The line “Weight on roots extended”  The boulder sits on three square stone platforms, each extending out farther than the one above it.  There’s little embellishment needed to see the simplicity in that descriptive to visual confirmer.  The rest of the verse flows smoothly as butter and all elements fit snugly.  The one thing that gave me the most trouble was “wingless bird ascending” since it seems to apply in more ways than one, but only one way supports a method consistent with finding a white stone and taking 12 paces.  It was the folklore of the local region that tied the three nearest mountains together into a legendary Indian love triangle.  My methodology was simple, I recognized some options with the first line of the verse: Lane, could be a person, place, or thing…Joseph Lane, or a roadway, a county, or a bowling alley.  Since I live in Lane County I had to satisfy my curiosity and so I proceeded to investigate the meaning of “222”.  Step by step each thing discovered confirmed without need for any loose imaginings.  Now that I’ve been to the site and researched many options, I can’t find any room at all for being fooled into thinking this is the right way to go with this image.
Wilhouses (and other contributors) theory on Hermann Park was treated much like the FOY theory.  Start with being dumped at the park entrance.  Lots of good descriptions and a loosely connected path to the Children’s Zoo.  Where as much visual and verse information was reserved for describing the treasure ground.  Sometimes the desire for economy can be misleading.  I tried a number of different approaches and admit I got very fooled at times by things which have changed a great deal over time, like the Hospital lot or the miniature train track additions.  My latest strategy approaches the verse as a collection of three line breaks and the last line alone looking very dodgy, “A whistle sounds.”  It fits snugly to see the Cathedral and the Glassel school as confirmers.  I believe if you are set in their proximity, the next line Friendship South seems to apply to Hermann Park.  Friendship…”her man”…a girlfriend and her boyfriend…seems like a snug fit.  When we pursue the Take your task to the 982 line we are now making a path towards the center of the park and beyond.  I think it’s a honeypot setup to stick us in the CZ.  The visual confirmer of the Elf says it all…trickster.  If it’s not there then where is it?  It is at this point you have to have fun, climb high (a tower if you will), take flight and fall gently somewhere within these descriptive confirmers that fits the image of sand, columns, and something charging like a rhino…like Samel Houston signaling a charge from his steed.  I’m unclear where the park boundaries are, but the tree covered areas near the Mecom fountain and Sam Houston statue seems like the way to go.  Is that inside the park boundary?
Redundancies have been discussed some but I think they need much more attention.  Why would Preiss write a single word if it didn’t have enough meaning to go with it?  Isn’t one well selected word enough to make a point or does he really want to put redundancies in his work?  Hey, this is Hermann park….oh btw, Hermann park here…did you know this is Hermann park?  Blah.  I think the Melville quote had a sly purpose.  Hermann Park is a big happy place that gets lots of visitors…shouldn’t it be expected that we’d figure out the 982 or land on a Zoo context given the rhino/camel?  I don’t think concluding Melville’s first name is the only use of that line.  A tower then?  A high standing structure…or something which tows, like a train engine…its strong and especially a delight to ride in miniature scale (until you find out how not cushy is the ride).  Hermann Park is full of attractions.  It seems right that we would be invited to visit every literal connection: the trains, the lions, the rhino’s, snowflake, etc., but then you’re stuck turning over every rock, looking for every discrete dig possible spot…and with what methodology?  Overlay?  The gem located next to the ball-topped column (globe lamp)?  In the center of three statues…?  (Sorry, Wilhouse, I know you tried everything you could).  Going beyond the literal is all that’s left to do if a bulldozer and a highly motivated hunter didn’t find it.  The likeness in shape to the Houston roundabout and large rectangle pool is clearly meant to be seen as the column, but how is that like our towering long range icons in Image 4 and 5?  It’s not, but what else is there in this desert image?  Nothing.  This is a departure where the verse does the work of describing the city of Houston’s iconic tower.  I really think it’s going to be the First City Tower.  In 1981, it was high on the iconic list.  It has four alike in it’s design.  What’s in the middle of it?  From a distance, Fannin street points to it’s middle.  I think this sounds unlikely to most, but it just utilizes a shift in perspective from visual to written.  Both are used to convey information.  We only prefer the visual method because of the discovered casques.  There is no basis beyond that to exclude written descriptive information from being as applicable as visual information.
I don’t know if I’ve opened up any worthy ideas to discuss, but please give it consideration.  I promise I’ll hold off on the more divergent ideas for a day or two.

I see, this is hard for me to accept and is a big deal breaker towards how I’ve approached the problems.

erexere

The working definition of iconic isnt in my mind something that has to be universally recognized as it a city identified component.  … I feel the more important use is to see something from a perspective or good distance that does have a distinctive character.  First Tower isnt the Astrodome in comparison, I agree, but it does remain distinct from a long distant view on Fannin street.

At a distance, it’s even more white and boring.  I actually don’t think you can any of its facade from that distance anyway — it’s right in the middle of downtown, with many other buildings surrounding it.  If you want to find a building that goes with your idea, you’d probably be better off looking at the buildings in the Medical Center — right adjacent to Hermann Park.  There have been tall buildings in that area since the 50s.
I’m totally open to the idea of the litany being part of the puzzle.  But how does it contribute clues to the hunt, beyond the country-based “themes” for each casque?  At some point, if they’re going to be useful, they have to provide something more specific to help us get to that tiny plot to dig up.

bigmattyh

At some point, if they’re going to be useful, they have to provide something more specific to help us get to that tiny plot to dig up.

(True – having now settled on the list of cities, and largely parks, we’ve probably gone beyond that point.)

Big, I researched the Houston tall buildings and a lot of new construction happened post 80.  Not seeinf First Tower from a Herman Park vantage isnt any diifferent than not seeing Chicago/Cleveland towers from their park areas.  I see it as a street signifier.

erexere

I believe Preiss worked to use the most stable environments for his hunt.

this is an erroneous assumption, as we know BP believed they would all be found quickly, you cant assume much in the way of permanent markers
which is why a llama named snowflake is actually an acceptable clue

erexere

Big, I researched the Houston tall buildings and a lot of new construction happened post 80.  Not seeinf First Tower from a Herman Park vantage isnt any diifferent than not seeing Chicago/Cleveland towers from their park areas.  I see it as a street signifier.

I don’t think it’s in the image, frankly.

erexere

I see, this is hard for me to accept and is a big deal breaker towards how I’ve approached the problems.

In which way do you mean?

Mmmm…well, its the Spain/Florida thing that puts the biggest doubt in the Oregon theory.  From that theory, some of my other verse pairings differ from the mainsttream.  Bruno de Heceta is the only spanish explorer I would think significant to Oregon coastal history…I’d wager he could be cited for Face Rock and Haystack Rock that I strongly believe to be contained in image 6.  I never thought of the Spain connection before…got a lot of thinking and review ahead of me.
Thanks.

Also, dont forget that the Cleveland Image was connected, via the story and the I’s jewel, to the Hellas.  Although the Greeks call the country Hellas or Ellada (Greek: Ελλάς, Ελλάδα) and its official name is Hellenic Republic, in English the country is called Greece.  This casque was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens.

bigmattyh

Another more literal possibility: An out-of-order confirmer for “Texas”.  We’re taught in Texas schools from an early age that the name Texas is derived from the local Native Americans’ word for “Friendship.”  Friendship South = Texas, a state in the South.  (This is, actually, common knowledge around here.

The state motto of Texas is “friendship” — probably what BP was referring to (more directly than the etymology of the word “Texas”).

erexere

I believe if you are set in their proximity, the next line Friendship South seems to apply to Hermann Park.  Friendship…”her man”…a girlfriend and her boyfriend…seems like a snug fit.

Unknown

Unknown:
I think it’s a honeypot setup to stick us in the CZ.

Unknown

Unknown:
Redundancies have been discussed some but I think they need much more attention.  Why would Preiss write a single word if it didn’t have enough meaning to go with it?  Isn’t one well selected word enough to make a point or does he really want to put redundancies in his work?  Hey, this is Hermann park….oh btw, Hermann park here…did you know this is Hermann park?

Unknown

Unknown:
I don’t think concluding Melville’s first name is the only use of that line.

Unknown

Unknown:
The gem located next to the ball-topped column (globe lamp)?  In the center of three statues…?

Unknown

Unknown:
The likeness in shape to the Houston roundabout and large rectangle pool is clearly meant to be seen as the column but how is that like our towering long range icons in Image 4 and 5?  It’s not, but what else is there in this desert image?  Nothing.

Unknown

Unknown:
This is a departure where the verse does the work of describing the city of Houston’s iconic tower.  I really think it’s going to be the First City Tower.  In 1981, it was high on the iconic list.  It has four alike in it’s design.

A few responses about your Houston thoughts:
As maltedfalcon said, BP expected these to be solved within a year or two.  He didn’t have longevity in mind.  Think of this: even the 982 train — which everyone almost unanimously agrees is, in fact, the train — isn’t there anymore.  They moved a giant multi-ton fixture that looked as permanent as anything.
Not every clue still exists anymore.  Things Change.
Another more literal possibility: An out-of-order confirmer for “Texas”.  We’re taught in Texas schools from an early age that the name Texas is derived from the local Native Americans’ word for “Friendship.”  Friendship South = Texas, a state in the South.  (This is, actually, common knowledge around here.
http://bit.ly/xy9NfO
)
I think you’re overthinking things.  BP expected these to be solved within a year or two.
I think you’re overstating these “redundancies”.  I see one clue that signifies a nearby art school (“Fortress north, cold as glass”) — much like “M and B set in stone”.  And I see one clue that’s a confirmer for Hermann Park (the Melville quote).  The 982 train is another thing inside Hermann Park, as is the aqua tunnel, etc., but at this point, the purpose of the clues is to get you to the specific casque site within the park.  They’re not just redundant confirmers.
I think it stands just fine on its own as a sort of a semi-obscure signifier for Hermann Park.  He did, clearly, put in quotes from not-so-well-known sources.  “Here is a sovereign people…”, for example.  I think of these as bonuses for the well-read.  If you get them, it was like a little wink from BP.  I do think that this was as obscure as he got.
It seems like a good idea, but there isn’t any evidence that the location of the gem in the images has anything to do with the burial sites.
As for “In the center of four alike”, well, not every clue still exists anymore.  Wilhouse’s best guess was that the casque was buried somewhere in the center of four of those cinderblock statues, and I think that’s as good a guess as any.  BP didn’t know they’d be moved.  He expected these to be solved in a year or two.
There are actually a few markers in the zoo.  The lampposts are an unusual design — large spheres on top of posts.  I still remember these from when I was a kid; they’re fairly unique.  Someone recently posted a good match for the rhino on top of a pole, as a sign for the Houston Zoo.  Wilhouse has pointed out, many times, that the hat on the djinn is the same as the hat on the gnome in the CZ.  The Chicago/Cleveland solves had about 3-4 literal confirmers.  This tracks pretty well with what we know to be true in the other confirmed solutions.
Okay. Chicago had the Water Tower; Cleveland has Terminal Tower; and Milwaukee has City Hall.  You definitely have my attention here.  But I do have to tell you the First City Tower has never been considered an “iconic” tower in Houston, at least not to my knowledge.  It’s a rather bland, boring office building.  If BP wanted to use a building to signify Houston, its best-known one at the time was the Astrodome.
Anyway.  I know you don’t want to leave any word un-meaning-ified, but I think with Houston especially, it’s important to remember: not every clue still exists anymore.  Things Change.  If any other casques are dug up, it’ll be where things change less, and the clues have a higher likelihood of still existing.  Maybe like the Roanoke one.

Malt, I wasnt assuming he was trying to design it to last more than a year or two, but I can see how my stance might be seen that way.  I am trying to say it seems that BP made a conscious effort to avoid the less stable environments whether it was a stylistic choice or just good commn sense.  Early on I recall wondering if he used an art exibit in Milwaukee as a reference point (this was a current art show that wouldnt be expected to change in a year or two).  I was 100% wrong on that btw, since I was trying to pair Image 2 with Milwaukee at the time.  Im just saying given each general location there are more established and stable places than others.  I would focus on those oldest and historically important or recognized sites first.  Anything with a plaque is a good start, even places that were only recently put on the historic register.
As a point of style, I thought he was going for anything that fit an old and established context to preserve a fair folk theme.  Associating each in a culturally distinct, older, natural setting.
Big, I didnt know that about Texas, what a great piece of information, attaching meaning of a Native American reference to signify the state sounds solid.
I might be overthinking many things as usual, but it sure seems like BP selected the ambiguous items to play with our focus, not to confuse those items with redundancies.  His efforts might have been as simple as recognize the big clues that home in on the general area and then quickly find the confirmers after getting a good feel for the area, its statues, and architectural standouts.  It couldve been that he made the trail as clear as day at the time and done nothing to be elusive, but I find his work more compelling as a reward system to those who solved some of the fairy contorted challenges.
The working definition of iconic isnt in my mind something that has to be universally recognized as it a city identified component.  I see it as a matter of perspective.  The Terminal Tower was very distinctive and fits that purpose, but I feel the more important use is to see something from a perspective or good distance that does have a distinctive character.  First Tower isnt the Astrodome in comparison, I agree, but it does remain distinct from a long distant view on Fannin street.  It just sits in the middle of the perspective and has those four column like shadowy features in its face.  In Boston, I like the Citgo sign as a long range clue.  In Rodanthe, I like the Chicomacomico water tower.  In Corbett, I like Sentinel (Phoca) Rock which stands out in the middle of the Columbia River.  In Montreal, I like the the lamp in front of the Railroad mogul’s historic residence…which is a real departure from long range and probably a significant indicator in the difficulty level of that solution.  In Florida, I’d say its Ponce’s statue.  SF is a tough one to decide on, it offers several choices, which adds a layer of difficulty rather than making things easy.  New Orleans uses the Superdome.  Sumter in Charleston.  The First Towers face where the column shapes are vertically stacked succesively and diminish in proportion based on a close up view could explain the horizontal spread of literal columns also similarly proportioned in the background of the image.  I said verse did the work to describe the iconic structure as an exception but now I realize it is more likely a Fannin street signifier.
Big, i like your perspective on the obscure quotings as winks, but my suspicions remain that if he had the option to affix it to a specific challenge point, I think he knew what a thrill and sense of accomplishment it would bring.

forest_blight

The state motto of Texas is “friendship” — probably what BP was referring to (more directly than the etymology of the word “Texas”).

Six of one, half dozen of the other…?  It all comes from the same place, and it still makes “Friendship” a clue for “Texas.”

I was just thinking “beginning, middle, end” and I realized what hasn’t been discussed anywhere in the forums as far as I can tell that Preiss may have utilized an appreciation for the game of chess in his methodology.  Everyone here likely knows the game of chess, and surely some of us can play a decent game, but who among us understand the depth and style of each of these early masters: Francois Philidor, Emanuel Lasker, Jose Capablanca, Alexander Alekhine, Paul Morphy, Harry Nelson Pillsbury, Mikhail Botvinik, and many others?  Everyone has talked about Bobby Fischer or Gary Kasparov, but knowing better the players much further in the past really adds a new level of appreciation for them and the game in general.
What I’m getting at is the way in which chess works and what separates a mediocre player from a great player.  Before you roll your eyes and hurt yourselves, I just want to say I consider myself less than mediocre.  I have a terrible win percentage, but I then I have a lot of experience playing against chess masters and I’ve played through many many published games involving all the names of players I’ve just mentioned.  What I’ve learned in all my mediocre experience is that the game is on one level just a collection of simple rules, e.g. pawns move forward, bishops diagonally, rooks on rank and file, etc., but it also involves strategy.  Mediocre players tend to perceive strategies based on the pieces themselves, but great players perceive the possibilities and actions that relate to the pieces in concert with a variety of considerations related to their opponent’s pieces and even style.  There’s something in chess which when perceived is very beautiful, elegant and even simple, given that when you see it, it adds a sense of clarity in understanding from beginning, middle, and to end.
I say all this because I think Preiss had this kind of appreciation.  His solutions, whether fully understood or not, in Chicago and Cleveland, seem to have a chess game like elegance.  The beginning lines introduce us to a wide range of possibilities but then the middle puts us right at the boundaries of where we will find the casque and finally the right visual and word elements work in concert to bring about a certainty, a checkmate.
Strategic themes make a great game of chess.  Random moves make a farce.  I believe Preiss used his own talents, a knowledge of history, literature, architecture, and people united in a thematic approach.  I believe we will eventually figure things out, but we have to start appreciating the smaller picture, the etudes, before we grasp the bigger picture.

Unknown

Unknown:
I’ve always entertained the idea that the “giant step” may not be in terms of feet from the pole, but in terms of elevation. We already know Preiss uses the term “step” In Cleveland to refer to a vertical step. Very interesting to me, in verse 8 he he uses “ascend the 92 steps” but uses “100 paces” for horizontal distance. We don’t know if the 5 steps in Thucydides’ direction are actual stairs or not, but for the sake of this theory, I hope they are. He specifically uses the term “paces” in verse 5. He does use “east steps” in Verse 10.

I had an idea while I was typing out this portion of my post in the Image 1 thread.
Since everyone who comes across The Secret thinks they’re the first person to “reach out” to Palencar and the Widow Preiss and piss all over our Corn Flakes, I thought we might harass someone like Dr. David Van Nuys. I remember watching some videos he made a few years ago where he produced a psychological profile of the Zodiac Killer based upon the letters that were sent to various news outlets. Anyway, we already have 2 solves, and some other specific details/locations/literary references in the other verses.
I’ve posted about it before, but I think Preiss deliberately wove certain similarities into the verses in order to make things a little challenging. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in Verse 3 he mentions Thucydides and Xenophon who also appear on the same monument for the Image 4 solve even though they aren’t related. I’m not sure if all three of “Socrates, Pindar, Apelles” are on the Boston Library, but I see Pindar after a very brief search. I think that’s secondary to the point I’m making,.
.
Basically, I’m curious to know if anyone has ever gone about any kind of linguistic deconstruction of the verses like this, and whether or not anyone thinks this is even a legitimate line of inquiry. Please advise.
My original point about SF was that we know enough to realize that Preiss attempted to be specific in the directions he was giving for most of the burial grounds, and I’m considering exploring deeper if anyone thinks there’s merit. But we see him say things that are pretty definite like “At the base of the tree” or “Underneath that which is first seen…”, ” at 12 paces… get permission”, even if we don’t know specifically where they are, once we were to find that specific location (in the early 80’s) it would seem like a definitive place which to dig. “GIant Pole, Giant Step” would be a 360 degree directional crap shoot.

“I, Themistocles, am come to you, who did your house more harm than any of the Hellenes, when I was compelled to defend myself against your father’s invasion – harm, however, far surpassed by the good that I did him during his retreat, which brought no danger for me but much for him.” (Thucydides)
Generals.  Thucydides was all about reporting on the activities of military leaders.  Most all of my interpretations have inadvertently led to places that have some link or significance to a military place or person.  Perhaps that observation doesn’t narrow anything down but maybe there is something to do with the cultural context.

It is concise from a technical and empirical perspective.  All we need to do now is take things a step further and actually discuss the riddles and context.

My trial reenactment went well.
I had fun burying this the week before Thanksgiving.  It containd a magic box that makes things disappear through a secret compartment.  On Thanksgiving the kids went to work with theiir tools of escavation and recoveres the box.  It was immense fun seeing the process through.  This box was extremely durable and water tight.

love it concise and all in 1 post,
http://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h … 65#p127265

Brick Tower Press own the rights to the book. Would be fun to bring out an annotated Kindle edition.
http://www.bricktowerpress.com/

Four21thrasher, I’ve been thinking a lot about that as well.  I have a feeling Preiss was busted on one of his digs or he himself asked for permission and he made promise to include a note to request permission before digging.  Someone at some point may have known the location of interest, and been willing to respect the game Preiss was running.
In consideration of the location where I think involves the permission request, I’ve learned that several people who use to be involved with the Portland Women’s Forum were quite old back in 1981, many have passed away, and of the current membership, none of them recall anything to do with a guy digging a hole to bury a cube for a treasure hunt.  The president of the Forum was nice enough to ask her members at the monthly pancake house meetup.  I think time has taken it’s toll on any memory that may resurface in that regard.
Here’s a new list of my ideas for first lines acting as dual purpose.
First line dual-purpose ideas:
Image 1: At stone wall’s door = stuck in thought at the gates = sit on bench looking at Golden Gate
Image 2: Of all the romance retold = birds repeating mating calls (drumming) = at a metal drum barrel (water cistern)
Image 3: Pass two friends of octave = (Wilbur&Orville) To fly you must “take-off”, to land you must “touch down” = Chicamacomico’s Rec Pole (looks like a Football goal post) “Pass [for a] two [point conversion]”?
Image 4: Beneath two countries = a border wall = casque found at a wall
Image 5: Where M and B are set in stone = a deed of property transfer, an agreement “set in stone” = grant = casque found in Grant Park
Image 6: Lane = name of 1st Governor of newly explored land, Joseph Lane, Oregon Territory (Ponce was the 1st Governor of a newly explored land, Puerto Rico 1508) = roadways are presented as lanes = near the monument to Sam Hill and Sam Lancaster for their efforts in the Good Roads Movement.
Image 7: At the place where jewels abound = “great in number” = No.1 is the greatest number = St. Louis Cemetery No. 1
Image 8: Fortress north = isolation, in the cold [the north] = on the backside of Miller Hill
Image 9: In the shadow = Poem by Pauline Johnson = under a shelter = roof over checkerboards
Image 10: View the three stories of Mitchell = three accounts = Mitchell Bank = three things in a row, benches?
Image 11: If Thucydides is = prison for exiled = incarceration = prison, an enclosed space = fenced area at the 2C?
Image 12: The first chapter = Washington chapter, Daughters of the American Revolution = plaque on Robert’s Rock in San Juan Island

To date, for the remaining puzzles, the “methodology” seems to be…
1) subjectively interpret the image, find some subjective matches
2) subjectively interpret the verse, find some subjective descriptions of objects/places
3) find a place nearby that subjectively satisfies the vague-as-fuck dig direction lines
4) dig as many fucking holes as you can near that place
5) come up empty
6a) dig bigger holes
6b) return to #1
6c) resign that the casque or #3 is gone
Does this seem problematic? Does anybody else believe we should be able to know we are right BEFORE we have a casque in hand, or is it just me?

There is no avoiding the subjectivity issue. How BP thought his directions would make sense is just one hurdle, while JJPs artistry (was it his or BPs idea to reverse some of the image elements?) is another. Then we have the issue with selecting the correct P# V# pairing. The effects of time are the least of our problems.
The range of difficulty, BPs concept of an easy puzzle (Chicago/Cleveland?) and his concept of a hard puzzle (???) is something else to consider.
I think there are tricks in the verse and image to be detected that might never be guessed unless the person is totally on the right track, standing in a place where BP once stood. Until such discoveries are made for certain (hopefully not coincidental) we shouldnt be digging holes at all.
Take my NOLA example for a dig spot. I dont have verification of any of my guesswork, but if it were the correct spot after all, then I’d expect some detail in the image to lend itself to that sense of certainty or confidence that its shovel time.

forest_blight

So I’m not ruling out anything (except Juneau Park in Milwaukee — that’s just crazy talk!).

Not ruled out until its found somewhere else!

I’ve been working on a first line analysis as it echoes in some way the conditions in which the casque is discovered.
I posted a bunch of ideas before, many turned out wrong, rather I’ve come up with a new more preferable list.
Its my first real take on a backbone theory.  Alternate word definitions are used and some synonyms.  Nothing funky in terms of word play which is a huge improvement.

WR,great post,now i have to go back and read it again and again
wheres slappy,she always tried to find a connect

These are very good points WR.

Thoughts on the litany…(just idle brainstorming).
What are the treasures the Fair Folk bring?
Easily named, and lovingly told:
Fairies of England proudly bear
Garnet, crown-jewel of their Queen
Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk,
Cold morning green, their Emerald
The Hadas of Iberia:
Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower
Turquoise the Fays of France keep: stone
Rare as a blue midsummer’s day
Dwarves’ treasure: purple Amethyst,
Imperial star of Germany
The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes:
A cloud of shining, shifting smoke
A Topaz is the Russian prize:
The royal sunstone, frozen fire
Peridot of old Italy:
Antique, and olivine, and rich
The Ruby out of Araby
Scarlet of desert sky at dawn
Africa’s Diamond, earth-born star,
Bright harvest of the midnight rock
The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet
Aquamarine, spring-water clear
From far Cathay, the dragon’s Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon
Each jewel in its weird-wrought casque,
Gift of the Viking craftsmen Elves.
Wonder and glory thirteen-fold:
These are the treasures the Fair Folk bring.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Each image has an indicator for a month. This one is relatively obscure…Triangle -> 3 -> March. This gives the birthstone Aquamarine. The litany entry for this gem is:
The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet
Aquamarine, spring-water clear
This gives us Greece, which provides a confirmer for the Grecian garden. More than that, perhaps it also gives us a hint for the drinking fountain.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The month indicator in this image is simpler – the watch at 1.00 gives us January -> Garnet. The litany entry is:
Fairies of England proudly bear
Garnet, crown-jewel of their Queen
Roanoke is associated with England and the Lost Colony. But beyond that, the Elizabethan Gardens which feature in the verse were named after the English Queen, and there’s a statue of her there.
Preiss confirmed to Egbert that the nationalities were involved in the locations. Since the nationality is established directly by linking the month and birthstone of the image to the relevant couplet in the litany, this is tantamount to confirming that the litany holds clues.
I’ve been wondering what other hints might be buried in there. Consider Boston for example…
A very obscure month confirmer, eight gold squares on the globe base, gives us August -> Peridot.
Peridot of old Italy:
Antique, and olivine, and rich
Could the globe be the antique…?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This is even more tenuous, but I’m also still interested in the possibility of the introduction in general containing hints which are connected with the litany. The most striking example of such a clue is for image 6.
Nine flowers gives us September -> Sapphire.
The Hadas of Iberia:
Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower
Note how the couplet reminds us of the flowers in the image which gave us September. It seems to me that BP has gone to some trouble to weave these links into the puzzle.
Connected with this, the introduction relates how…
For slow centuries, the exotic Dracs and
Fadas
from the Riviera had sported and dozed on the beaches of new-found
Florida
. Perhaps the metal-clashing landfall of the
Conquistadores
took them by surprise and they fled without taking time to disenchant their
Fountain of Youth
.
Hadas and Fadas are the same thing; the words have the same root. And the picture actually shows us a conquistadore, of course; Ponce de Leon. These clues are hard to ignore.

Many of the thoughts shared on these boards continue to be blunt tool approach. I’m not judging whether anyone is right or wrong and I’m not commenting on the semantics of saying “solved”. I just wonder why very few people talk about how a particular clue is expected or justifiable based on a whever proposed framework the puzzle represents.
I often preach would contexts would be derived from a Folk Folk perspective. Man, one that is good enough, is the target audience for each puzzle. Is there some lesson or trick insight that is especially attractive or purposeful to that Fair Folk?
Is Boston all about messages? Is it about memorials to war? Is it about T&Xation? Is it about American Revolution? What memorials or locations are supported by their justifications?

Cleveland’s “spring-water clear” has eluded me in terms of clarity. One idea I have is that it quickly associates with the Socrates, Pindar, Apelles line as S-P-A, of the derivation from a mineralized water or word for “fountain” in the Walloon language. I think Preiss wanted to capture the setting of nymphs playing in a bath.
The way idioms and origins work, however, doesn’t seem like an especially good way to lead us towards a solution, although it looks fine from a big picture or retrospective view.
I grew up and Cleveland and one of the biggest jokes we Clevelanders have to dispel is the one about the river catching on fire in the late 60s. People still talk about it like it happened two days ago. Perhaps he’s making a point about it finally being clear of industrial waste?

Unknown

Unknown:
Um, no! I’m the guy who doesn’t want hints, remember? I don’t peek at crossword answers, either. It completely defeats the purpose of having a puzzle in the first place.
If the answers are known by NO ONE, that would be awful. I would feel comforted knowing that if we ever do agree on a solid solution, there’s someone we can submit it to. But I want ZERO hints. We’re collectively smart enough to figure this out on our own. I am 100% against approaching JJP with anything less than a SOLUTION, meaning (a) we
all
agree that we’ve found the exact location for a casque but it has been destroyed, or (b) we have an actual, mud-encrusted casque in our hands and can provide him with photographic proof.
I haven’t seen any truly convincing solutions since johann and SoonerFan correctly identified the Cleveland location and Egbert dug it up.
I’m sorry to burst bubbles, but I haven’t seen any SOLID clues since the Fiske lamppost was discovered in Montreal. I recommend you review the events surrounding the P4 / V4 Cleveland find in this forum to see how absolutely certain people were when the casque site was identified. And see:
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/egbert/secret.html
When the next casque site is identified, there won’t be any ambiguity or debate — we’ll
know
it’s right.

I don’t understand, this forum has identified at least three casque sites (just like in cleveland). After Cleveland was identified, Egbert took off and dug it up. Roanoke, Boston and Florida are clearly casque sites. With the exception of Eric, I think most of us agree. What we need now are diggers willing to take a chance. I don’t think any of us are going to agree 100% even if we have the exact spot under our noses.

Unknown

Unknown:
I nominate forest_blight as the contact person.

Um, no! I’m the guy who doesn’t want hints, remember? I don’t peek at crossword answers, either. It completely defeats the purpose of having a puzzle in the first place.
If the answers are known by NO ONE, that would be awful. I would feel comforted knowing that if we ever do agree on a solid solution, there’s someone we can submit it to. But I want ZERO hints. We’re collectively smart enough to figure this out on our own. I am 100% against approaching JJP with anything less than a SOLUTION, meaning (a) we
all
agree that we’ve found the exact location for a casque but it has been destroyed, or (b) we have an actual, mud-encrusted casque in our hands and can provide him with photographic proof.
I haven’t seen any truly convincing solutions since johann and SoonerFan correctly identified the Cleveland location and Egbert dug it up.
I’m sorry to burst bubbles, but I haven’t seen any SOLID clues since the Fiske lamppost was discovered in Montreal. I recommend you review the events surrounding the P4 / V4 Cleveland find in this forum to see how absolutely certain people were when the casque site was identified. And see:
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/egbert/secret.html
When the next casque site is identified, there won’t be any ambiguity or debate — we’ll
know
it’s right.

I’m not questioning the theories that Roanoke, Boston, and St. Augustine hold casques. I’m quite sure they do. My diatribe above was in response to folks wanting to petition JJP for clues. Dig all you want, but I would consider approaching JJP with anything short of a casque or a certain solution for a specific square yard of dirt unacceptable. IMHO.

That I can go along with.

Listening to Gustav Mahler’s 9th symphony has helped me appreciate The Secret.  It has a lot of movement.  I find myself lost in wonder for a good 20-30 seconds and then I have to push myself to ask “what’s happening…now” and then I start thinking about things and again pushing myself to be an active engaged listener.  It’s never boring, it’s just so intense that you have to be present.
I think Preiss’ verses, those that we have still failed to fully understand are much like Mahler’s work, not specifically his alone, but as an example of the process of creating something that keeps you filled with wonder and has many steps, each provoking you to be very present and yet appreciate the whole.

I make myself laugh seeing that list of “great” achievements in the things thought impossible category.  I want to add to it all the ridiculous things I’ve attempted like how long I held my breath or hiking up a glacier without any gear or a long list of jackassness.  Really I thought it should be important for people to stay positive and don’t let thoughts of failure pry their confidence from the goal.  We need Egbert to come back and boost morale.  We need a casque to be found to get things rolling.

Maybe NYC only has one (very obvious) number that puts it in NA (74) because it’s the only major NA city on that longitude. You have Philadelphia and Ottawa at 73, Montreal and Albany at 75, but nothing at 74 except NYC and the Atlantic Ocean.
I do admit, I’m confused by the 15s in the water and the shadow, but that’s the only really obvious extra number there. We can force 3’s into the wings or the flower, but neither of those look intentionally inserted as numbers, to my eye. Though I’m of the opinion that the 15s are really upside-down SIs (for Staten Island).

Frisco

Maybe NYC only has one (very obvious) number that puts it in NA (74)…We can force 3’s into the wings or the flower, but neither of those look intentionally inserted as numbers.

The flower could easily be 38. The 74 doesn’t look much like 74 at all IMHO.

Hmm…it looks exactly like 74 to me. I didn’t think that was disputable, at all, but I guess it is. If you don’t think there’s a 74 there, it could be in D.C., Sacramento, Louisville or St. Louis. But if that’s the case, where’s the other coordinate? I don’t see a 77, 121, 85, or 90 anywhere.

As a general rule….If you can’t get there by boat from the ocean (either one of them) it’s not a correct city

Happy to address the “red herrings” comment via PM. In particular, I’m bothered by Image 12, which has a couple of good image matches for NY but numbers which seem to bear no relation to the lat/long. AFAIK BP never confirmed NY. Something like LA or SF would be more plausible for the visible numbers, and have Russian Immigrant credentials. The Statue of Liberty is almost too easy compared to some of the “iconic images” – it depends whether BP thought this was one of his easy puzzles, or one of the difficult ones. It could be a clue for something else instead, like “Between two arms extended” or “Liberty Square” or “In truth be free” or something.
Another random thought; Masquerade, published three years earlier, referenced the periodic table. Considering the comment about how the Fair Folk are “the natural children of those elements”, I’ve wondered if there might some tie-ins. Eg, Image 1, Hg=Mercury=80. Image 3 has symbols reminiscent of Dalton’s diagrams for Sulphur and Azote.
Some verses begin with words like “In” (Indium) and “At” (Astatine). (Just brainstorming. We might have got all the main connections right, on the other hand there are some stumbling blocks that aren’t easily explained simply by the felling of trees etc.)

Has anyone ever seen a reference to “secrete” a type of helmet worn beneath a hat?

The acrostic for Keats seems to be a good justification for the discovery of SELOY in verse 9.
I wonder if the juggler in image 10 is a way to justify looking for an anagram.

By the way here is the entire walk through of the Dragonworld video game. This was developed by BP and released in 1984 RIGHT AFTER he did The Secret. From what I remember in the game you basically walk around on quests to find the “dragonstones” sound familliar.
There is an entire list of commands included here as well as the story, maybe you could find similarities in the story line, or matches to certain verse words and commands in the game…anyways it’s something to look into the madness of Byron Preiss
http://www.gamefaqs.com/c64/569088-drag … faqs/45113

And if you still have a C64, you can download the actual game from here…
http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=13018
I would love to play this BTW…I played it when I was a kid but had no idea about the book then. If anyone knows how I could get the game in a playable mode without finding a C64 that would be awesome!

forest_blight

I’m afraid I disagree, malt. In each case, BP gives a pretty strong hint without directing you unambiguously to the correct image. In any case, a reference to an image in a verse need not be for the purpose of establishing a pairing, but could also be a way to give a clue that can only be understood once the pairing has been made.
1. For “seek the columns,” there are really only two good candidate images he could be talking about, so that’s actually a really good hint for finding a P/V pairing. It eliminates 10 images for that verse.
2. For the “east steps,” I realize that many images have clocks. One must first pair the verse with the relevant image to make any use of this clue, but it is definitely a reference to a specific image (i.e., when you have identified the correct image for this verse, figure out the relevant hour, multiply it by two, and start walking).
3. For the “land near the window,” the land in question is clearly the outline of Roanoke, which is literally “near the window” in P3. Of the windows in other verses, none of them have “lands” near them, at least not quite so blatantly. So this is a clue for pairing an image with a verse.

Forgive me ahead of time for re-hashing a bunch of existing theories, but as far as discussing methodology, this train of thought also lends some weight to the Image 1 / Verse 7 pairing.
My personal thoughts are, “Stone wall’s door” could, and probably does serve 2 purposes.
First, it’s a hint to direct us to the portcullis in Image 1. The fact that the object is a portcullis and not some other type of door is significant to me. Note that I say “stone wall” and not “rock formation”.  I think the lack of texture in the drawing of the stone that the portcullis is on compared to the other rocks in the picture is worth noting. Also, Image 1 is the only image left containing a literal door on a stone wall. I say “left” because you could make a case for Image 5, but since we know that can’t match due to Image 5 being found in Chicago, that one’s out. I actually kind of like that fact because it does fall in line with how some of the other pieces of the larger puzzle have stacked up thus far.
My take on what you said about “Seek the columns”: Theoretically being either Image 4 or Image 8, if one was a completely new to The Secret, knowing nothing about the clues, you’d probably be drawn to Image 8 first when looking to match this verse. Good one, Preiss.  That being said, I think that seems to be the depth of the “trickery” employed in the construction of this hunt altogether. He didn’t want to make it too easy, so of course there are going to be one or two (or more) images that can potentially match the BIG hint that links the image to the verse.  It’s up to us as the treasure hunters to fit the other clues together so that it makes sense.
And to again repeat some of what you already said, when you apply that to the “land near the window” in Verse 11, it only becomes painfully obvious that this is what he did when we can back that up with the quote from the Wright Brothers monument, also in Verse 11. Before you have that piece of information to solidify things, I suppose you could make a case for other windows in other Images, etc, but even then, “Many images have windows” is a stretch. I’m totally with you on this one.
So back to Image 1 / Verse 7 and Methodology
“At stone wall’s door
The air smells sweet”
This “couplet” (If I’m using that term correctly, I’m no poet) takes you in to Jackson Street (Stonewall Jackson) and more specifically the (original) Ghiarardelli Chocolate building on Jackson Street, which is backed up by the stone wall’s door in Image 1 and the “Gh” on the fairy’s robe.
The epiphany can only happen, though, AFTER you’re pretty confident Image 1 is San Francisco due to “the rock” and Golden Gate Park, etc, and you’ve decided to take a look at Verse 7 because Image 1 has a “stone wall’s door” in the picture. I think that’s how Preiss put this one together.
Just for fun:
Image 8 (arguably image 6) = Verse 1’s “Treasure Ground” (The jewel in image 8 is the only one drawn on the ground).
edit: Just clarifying I mean the original Ghirardelli building, (415-431 Jackson St).

WhiteRabbit

But it’s unequivocally wrong about one of the only two solved puzzles.  😛
Image 4, Month 3, Verse 4.
Without explaining that, you’ve no hope of explaining the rest.

Oh sorry, I thought Four21Thrasher explained that.
Look carefully at image 4  While there is a triangle on a sphere (That indicates Euclid,
Not 3
)
There are no clock hands , nothing at all that really indicates a Number (besides lat lon…) It is totally possible that the number for this image
is zero
in which case you start a 4 and stay at 4
giving you verse 4.

I would hope, like JJP if any of BP friends and acquaintances had answers, clues or ideas, they would keep them to themselves as JJP does to honor BPs memory.

I firmly believe that the Chicago solvers solved it “incorrectly.” We could ask Eggbert to recount CLE as well, but I also got the idea they drove right to the park?
My guess has long been that Chicago and Cleveland are the easier puzzles, mostly because they contain a lot of (not well hidden) imagery that’s very visible in the parks. Most of the other visual confirmers are scattered, and smaller. I have always gotten the sense that the solvers of Chicago narrowed it down to a park via the image clues, then went there and figured it out half on their own, rather than a step by step following of the directions. I mean, once you get Grant Park “fence and fixture” really isn’t that hard, and it’s pictured fairly easily in the image itself.
It was easier, they were natives and recognized the images tied to the park. Which is why Preiss expected them to be solved so easily, I think. I just don’t think he realized how ‘poorly’ some of the paintings hid the images.

Back to the methodology…(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can’t remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour?
I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor’s centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride.
Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He’s definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn’t, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the “holes” of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

Back to the
methodology
…(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can’t remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour?
I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor’s centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride.
Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He’s definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn’t, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the “holes” of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

tjgrey

Back to the methodology…(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can’t remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour?
I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor’s centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride.
Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He’s definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn’t, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the “holes” of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759
I was going to follow it using Streetview.
Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc

tjgrey

Back to the
methodology
…(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can’t remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour?
I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor’s centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride.
Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He’s definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn’t, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the “holes” of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759
I was going to follow it using Streetview.
Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc

I’ve always liked the idea of guidebooks or tourist info being relevant. Not to the point of one of the clues just being a walking tour, but I’ve always assumed that in 1980-81 when he was researching & burying tourist and guidebooks were the #1 source for info. There was no Trip Advisor or anything like that. I wish there were an easy way to access that info though – maybe local libraries?
I’ve had enough trouble trying to find old road maps/aerial maps.

wk

Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759
I was going to follow it using Streetview.
Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc

Thanks wk-that’s a great idea! I’d like to see where the Charleston Slave/Freedom Tours lead…or if any were around 30 years ago. Even then, the history hasn’t changed, so it’s likely that the tours are pretty much the same…I might have to take one of these and see what they say.
http://palmettotours.com/charleston-sla … -tour.html
http://www.charlestonwalks.com/new_slavery&freedom.html

Elizabethan Gardens has an audio and visual tour on its website. click on take a tour.
http://elizabethangardens.org/

erexere

Yeah, but dont confuse multilayered association with 100% metaphor when there are literal words, not play on words, linking a site or object to a definition.
Many far reaching associations inhabited my posts awhile back, so many of you mightve failed to notice my own progression, so do try to forget what Ive said before so please give my new stuff a fresh look.
this might not be the best example, but take a look at V10’s first line, “In the shadow”, while that can be attributed to anything at all in our Solar system…or to do with some specific “grey giant”, I’ve found a famously known Native Tribes poet in Canada whom wrote a poem titled “In the Shadows”. Perhaps thats just a coincidental coonection, but if you factor in a lot of interesting landmarks that may work with the verse and image including an early 80s collection of art and reference to Elek Imredy at the Maritime museum with the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture sitting on its front lawn facing the park which contains just one grave memorial to that “In the Shadows” poet…oh this sentence is wonky…anyway Imredy sculpted the Girl in Wetsuit (modeled much like Mermaid of Copenhagen – Dutch Themed puzzle hint) which sits on a little isle dedicated by Douglas Brown. Ive never heard of these people before, but they have their place in that section of Canadas landscape. The miature train next to giant checkerboards really connects this puzzle for me especially with the LotJ describing shining and shifting could be relevant to the moving pieces of checkers and a successful capture, shinning as a successor winning move as pieces shift and jump over the board. The unique looking legeater lamp literally connects with the train makers home in Montreal but is also a strong symbol of a creature (predator) eating another creature (prey/game), quite like a checkerpiece taking an opponent piece out of the game.

I should add that image 9 looks to contain two runic symbols in the “X” shaped box that may be the initials of the poet: P J, Pauline Johnson. So many really tangible clues in Vancouver B.C., we have yet to see anything substantial in the Golden Mile of Montreal or NY depending on which verse/image combo considered. We know Preiss uses name initials in Verse, is this the only case we might know of for initials in an image?

erexere

Masks are also worn for Mardi Gras.  I think its just a matter of avoiding assumptions that will help us through these puzzles.  Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn’t completely understood.  I don’t think we should oversimply them just yet.

Let’s see, who else wears masks: robbers, surgeons, baseball catchers, raccoons, Walter White & Jesse Pinkman, hockey goalies, half the population of China, firefighters, jet pilots, scuba divers, riot police, gas masks, actors, and yes kids on Halloween. But what about the plain and simple (not Amelia Earhart) explanation of the Mardi Gras mask which isn’t standing alone but is being supported by many other confirmers in the pic?
The clock can just as easily represent 14 seconds after noon.
This is forcing. Pick one object out of any picture and I can force a fit to my home town of Albuquerque.

fox, you’ve tailored and misconstrued the case to sound right.
Lots of information goes into solving these puzzles.  In the end, holding a casque will mean you had to decide where the information means.  You can’t dodge the metafocus of anything being force fit if you’re set on ignoring or being selective.  My approach stems from the LotJ, and the reference to Midsummers Day as a hint to consider “holidays”.  Not to make you sound wrong, but I’m pointing out my effort to stay on course within a structure that’s clear in it’s presentation.  I admit jumping to the conclusion of Halloween only because I haven’t thought of wearing a mask on any other of the typical holidays.
I understand you could say it’s 12:00:14 in the afternoon, but then you’d have to explain why the clock is broken, since it’s showing the moon and stars.  I don’t live in Albuquerque, so I wasn’t aware that the moon and stars are considered afternoonish events.

I forgot about the moon and stars. Thanks for you’re attempt at belittling me with the comment about night skies in Abq at noon. Perhaps we should turn our focus to Anchorage since many afternoon skies are dark AND they wear ski masks to protect themselves from harsh winters? After all, you can clearly see the head of a sled dog in the checkerboard pattern and the Alaskan flag looks eerily similar to the stars on the clock.

Sorry for the jab, but it’s more a point of looking at the whole picture.  Does it generate a thematically useful construction?  I know there hasn’t been much discussion or support about that for Cleveland or Chicago, but that shouldn’t be justification for abandoning one particular investigative direction.  The portrayal of time may have something to do with more than just finding an actual clock.  The mask being removed may be a clever way to suggest All Saints Day.  I find that as an interesting counter to the mention of Midsummers Day, although I don’t think the LotJ capitalizes it (does it just say “rare as a blue midsummers day”?).
So maybe I’m off on this theory and it means nothing.  Still, it’s interesting to ask some questions and see if they work in the same possible direction along with all the remaining pieces of the puzzle.  If it doesn’t jive, then it’s not part of the hive.

Remember, these hunts always say can be solved by a child. It is a Mardi Gras style mask held up by a hand in a purple sleeve (main Mardi Gras color). If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck….
Still waiting for my challenge of an object in a pic.

object in a pic?  sorry, I have very little on that front.  Legeater in montreal still takes the cake.  There’s a major shortage of finding exact visual confirmers.  I think many good things fit the San Francisco image.  I also like the Vancouver BC Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture that resembles the square outline around legeater.

My challenge was that you could give me any random object from any of the 12 pictures and I could directly tie it to Albuquerque by force fitting.

Ah, I reject the challenge, but I’m interested in anything that you think fits as long as you provide some details on you’re process.  I think the goal of looking for how a puzzle works with all of it’s pieces is what’s important.  Just choosing a piece of a fantasy illustration rendered from multiple pieces of visual information at a casque site and then showing how much you can fit it to you’re own back yard isn’t really compelling.
I’m more interested in the Litany of the Jewels since you helped bring it to my attention.  I think it’s a real kick in the right direction for any of these solves.  Let’s think about what hints might be contained in each.  Right off, there’s a cultural reference, but then there’s a little something more.  That Midsummer’s Day idea really fascinates me.  The celebration of a Solstice day which also is known as Saint Johns Day fits some of my thoughts on the 21st day of the month.  Could even be that “in the middle of 21” means “Noon on a solstice”.
I think there could be a little more discussion about the content specific to the images and the verses rather than ubiquitous champing on my outside-the-box style.

erexere

Ah, I reject the challenge, but I’m interested in anything that you think fits as long as you provide some details on you’re process.  I think the goal of looking for how a puzzle works with all of it’s pieces is what’s important.  Just choosing a piece of a fantasy illustration rendered from multiple pieces of visual information at a casque site and then showing how much you can fit it to you’re own back yard isn’t really compelling.

I have nothing further your honor.

Its not random.  The clock says midnight plus about 14 seconds.  If the mask was in the process of being put on then its 14 seconds late.  You should stop scratching your head.
Halloween IS a holiday when masks are worn.  That’s not a random holiday nor a random event.  Most people have taken notice that the holiday happens on the same 31st day of October every year and without fail, kids wearing costumes knock at your door.  When Halloween is over, masks come off.  Why do you find this such a mystical process?
Masks are also worn for Mardi Gras.  I think its just a matter of avoiding assumptions that will help us through these puzzles.  Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn’t completely understood.  I don’t think we should oversimply them just yet.

erexere

Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn’t completely understood.  I don’t think we should oversimply them just yet.

And yet… the simple solutions and explanations are what actually led to actual casques being actually dug up. But whatever?

Well, it wasn’t easy for anyone involved to find those casques.  Getting close enough to find a casque without engineering an exact solve is all that we have.  Confirmation from the author in the form of a walkthrough, line by line, image element by image element has NEVER occurred.

Let me rephrase:
The simple approach is what worked
for the two groups that found that two casques. If there’s some deeper, more complex “real” solution that underlies the only two actual solutions that produced actual casques — casques that were found using
simple
interpretations — then it doesn’t even make a difference, now, does it?

erexere

Getting close to a very comfortable sense for how these puzzles work:
1. Let the Litany of the Jewels guide you in a helpful direction when considering an image and verse pair.
2. Consider the broadest or biggest clues that bring you to a city of consideration.
3. Image: Look for cultural theme in the image.  Take notice of the “action”.  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn’t being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween.  The image 4 centaur is on top of the wall-arch. The visual pieces are being organized for a thematic purpose.
4. Verse: the first line is immensely helpful in two ways, a general application comes first, but later, once the last line is resolved, the first line serves to confirm our conclusions.  Its fascinating and fun.  Elegant.
5. Verse: work from general to specific.  There will be some points that are well described for the purpose of getting the searcher in an approximate position.  The last few lines seem like inocuous fluff, really they are cryptic yet extremely specific.  There is no guessing.  Preiss chooses very precise words.

Seriously folks, this is a structured method, maybe it can be improved upon, please do.  If you must resort to calling a prepared approach “force fitting,” then you have failed to think critically.

erexere

Seriously folks, this is a structured method, maybe it can be improved upon, please do.  If you must resort to calling a prepared approach “force fitting,” then you have failed to think critically.

Yeah… no. That’s false. What you’re doing is the definition of force fitting. It’s not name-calling; it is your methodology.

bigmattyh

Yeah… no. That’s false. What you’re doing is the definition of force fitting. It’s not name-calling; it is your methodology.

Wrong.  What I’m doing is presenting one of my findings, of which there are many alternate possibilities, because its part of the relationship of starting with a clean slate,  brainstorming, and then shooting down ideas with critical reasoning.  If the dictionary didn’t support my conclusion I wouldn’t present it.
Whether my San Juan Island theory works or not should be subject to a critical process.  That should be where your our level of conversation is concerned.  You don’t seem to understand that.

erexere

Whether my San Juan Island theory works or not should be subject to a critical process.  That should be where your our level of conversation is concerned.  You don’t seem to understand that.

The problem, Eric, is that you don’t ever engage on the question of whether a set of clues is better or worse than any other. Critical thinking is about value judgments, but your “clues” all seem equally valid.
We can’t dig four feet down on every patch of soil on this continent. So it’s reasonable to focus on what’s most likely and make value judgments that determine the real clues from the chaff. But — case in point — you treat SELOY as somehow
less valid
than your anagram for Selby and troop movements to San Juan Island, and a tortured interpretation of “near men with windrose” to “a conflict escalation having to do with pigs” = “Pig War”. Sorry, man, but… no. There is not one shred of evidence that this hunt was constructed with anything like that level of complexity or convolution. You want there to be a casque in the Pacific Northwest
so badly
, that this logic actually makes sense.
But whatever. You don’t want to engage on that level, for whatever reason. You never make any case for
why
your “complex” theory makes more sense than the simple theory that actually led to two actual casques.
I guess it’s enough for you to do your research and have fun with the hunt, which, that’s perfectly fine. But, seriously, if you want to actually convince anyone else here of your theories — which you obviously seem to want to do, because you keep posting — you’ve got to start working on this angle of why your underlying complexity makes more sense than the only actual proven alternative.

B. Why are you nt taking this as an opportunity to engage the specifics that I’ve provided?  Your words are absent the specifics that help the discussion and only serve to color your negative opinion of my process.
I have not claimed my San Juan theory itself is more valid.  What I’ve done is explained with specifics what I think makes San Juan as valid.  I’m not dismissing FOY at all.  I’m very interested in what makes it valid as well.  Then we may look at this with even more criticality.  One specific I’ve engaged on is the entire acrostic of 15 letters as a message verses selecting just the last 5.  The issue of involving a level of anagramming is a huge consideration.  We might dismiss it on that basis alone, or we can look at whether or not adjusting four lines is doable.
The C&C factor of always using what we know about the found casques as a litmus test is problematic.  Yes, it makes sense to use what we’ve learned, but are we comfortable saying we KNOW C&C 100% just because the casques were recovered?  I think there are may be a side to this hunt that deserves investigation.  Are you willing to discuss that topic or are you just going to settle and close the book?
I’m not trying to make a bad idea fit.  I’m trying to contest my ideas and probe where they have opportunity to fit or be ruled out.  That will be dependent on my strategy as recerencing a more developed approach.

I can picture Erexere sitting in his den with books, maps, thesauruses (thesauri?), and millions of pieces of paper piled up around him, while he types his convoluted theories in earnest, and then bigmattyh in his neat living room throwing pencils at his laptop after reading another entry by Erexere.
I don’t know if I should get more popcorn, or continue to bang my head against a wall after reading another Erexere post.
Maybe I’ll do both.

erexere

I’m trying to contest my ideas and probe where they have opportunity to fit or be ruled out.  That will be dependent on my strategy as recerencing a more developed approach.

I think this is what I was trying to get at in my poem to you, E. You have an idea, a methodology and a strategy that is uniquely yours. The forum has another idea, methodology and strategy, but it is communal. We each tinker with the communal idea and methodology a bit, but mostly we all stay within its bounds and play the same game (and we do so willingly… we do not feel confined).
When you came along, you brought a different set of rules and seem to be playing a different game. You keep trying to get us to start playing by your rules, but we see that as playing a completely different game. We are satisfied with the game we are playing and quite happy with the rules we’ve developed. You can understand how it would be irritating to have someone playing shuffleboard in the middle of your basketball game, no?

Egbert

I don’t know if I should get more popcorn, or continue to bang my head against a wall after reading another Erexere post.

I choose popcorn.
I check back daily hoping that you or johann or ravel07 will drop another bomb. It’s been 7 years but I still get goosebumps every time I see this:

What if we give Eric his own thread? He can post volumes there if he chooses. It just seems that the last 4 or 5 pages of most threads is starting to become Eric and others debating things that we already accept like the FOY location.

I think Erexere did start his own thread, and fittingly called it “Dogpile Discussions.”

erexere

Take notice of the “action”.  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn’t being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween.

What?
It is random thought after random thought like this in all of your theories that makes me scratch my head. First, how does a mask being held up lead you to coming off at midnight? Using your reasoning, isn’t it just as plausible that the mask is going on? Which would lead us to dawn and a specific celebration is beginning? Can’t it just be a mask on a stick which ties in with everything else leading to New Orleans?
Why does every piece of every image as well as every word in every verse have to have some mystical meaning to you? I just don’t get it. There was nothing mystical about the 2 casques that have been found.