BINGO

Bingo, I have a deep respect for you and the work that you have put into this, so I tread lightly. We can certainly have a difference of opinion on this topic, and I am not trying to yell from the rooftop.
I suspected early on that there were historical connections. After all, the book is a pseudo-historical tale. There are many examples in the book and the Verses that instruct us to research history. One thing that was proof positive of this fact is the Japanese edition of the book. In the interview/translation session, BP gave very clear instructions to look in the dictionary, look in the encyclopedia or history books, etc. For example, “what happened in May 1913?”
I am somewhat bemused by the fact that in Verse 2, we have a very obscure quote from Domingo Faustino Sarmiento that references a hotel which was destroyed twice over and did not exist in New Orleans at the time of the book. Yet, no one blinks an eye at the reference, which is both research based and historical.
In Verse 8 we have a clue to a woman playing a harpsichord. Obviously, we will not stumble upon this in the park, and no one has found a statue, so where else do we look? I’m not a fan of the Marietta Robusti theory, but let’s assume that is correct for a moment. How do we figure this out?
While I agree that this is an unorthodox way to create some puzzles, it is what it is.
To answer your rhetorical question, yes many of the breadcrumbs may be in fact gone. I like to believe that BP chose his locations wisely, where the landscape would not change that much over time, and I suspect he did in many cases, but this hunt was never intended to last this long.

Maybe the slowspill thread can clean up all of this uncertainty.
(I see you watching Renovator…)

maltedfalcon

So besides a couple other things in your post that I just disagree with, these are 5 things you got factually wrong.

What? Only 5? Well then, I’m doing better than I thought – considering I wasn’t really making any attempt to be absolutely factually correct. My post was more of a fictional ‘what-if’ with which I was hoping to raise a few questions and not bore the readers with straight facts. I was simply trying to wrap my head around how the treasure hunt portion was initially set up by putting myself in the author’s place. I imagined it in a way that allowed my brain to maybe make sense of how all the intricate details of a game could be laid out so perfectly to create such a giant-scale treasure hunt with (now) worldwide attention and have it all come together without any hiccups… Except that it is still only 17% completed. So, obviously, somebody miscalculated something along the way.
*Because the intended tone of printed words does not always translate correctly, I should explain that this post was not meant as a snarky retort to the criticism of another member. I’m not looking for a back-and-forth here.. I’m just ‘splaining my own methods.

gManTexas

they are two of the easiest and most visual puzzles in the book.

This actually explains why they were the easiest. There is less room for interpretation when a fence is a fence and a wall is a wall, etc. The real question is why did Byron NOT believe they were the simplest to solve when he created them?

I’m curious about this similarity.  Was there a pupose to using a specific architecture?
Sorry. I need to get a better resolution and resize…still not handling the switch to ipad too well.

what is that the pedestal for? which city is it in?
Is it in cleveland?
Ah thats the Sam Houston Monument?

You know the piece that is missing, is of course the methodology for pairing the Image to the verse, besides an arbitrary choice by the casque hunter.  I believe there is a method that clearly states, This image goes with this verse, It might have to do with the clocks or the flowers or even the birthstones, or it might be something entirely different.
I am sure, that something in the image tells you what verse to use, or something in the verse tells you which image to use (or both), I just have no idea what it is.
Perhaps, (and at this point I will only give it a perhaps) “Site confirmer images” that go with another Image/verse combination help you figure out which verse goes with which image…
Or maybe it was just done to add a unified theme through the hunt and actually means absolutely nothing beyond that.

Yes, that’s what I’m trying say.  Sorry I don’t come across so well as you do, Matt.

maltedfalcon

Or maybe it was just done to add a unified theme through the hunt and actually means absolutely nothing beyond that.

Yup.  Very hard to separate the actual content from the context in the images.

I just ran through a spreadsheet and identified six major clues called out in all images, either specifically or through some manner of objective-ish (as opposed to completely subjective) interpretation (e.g., Liberty from Cleveland or Milwaukee rebus):
Land/City/State Identifier
Building or Park Identifier
Doorway or Window by/at a Park
Statue at a Park
Entrance to a Park
Road Identifier
These things are contained in all images, and usually confirmed or played with through the verse. However, any spacial relationship to the dig location cannot be derived from these clues. Even though some of the categories are unsolved for every image, they seem to undoubtedly be present in all.
One thing to note is that just because a park is called out by one of the categories, a totally different park can be called out by another (e.g., Jackson Square – outline of a park, and Lafayette Square – statue at a park). Also, each category may have one or more image clues that fall into the category bucket (e.g., Chicago Bulls and Illinois are both in the Land/City/State Identifier bucket).
I realize this seems arbitrary, but one conclusion is that we can arrive at the correct cities without the lat/long coordinates. Have a run at it… The images that allow us to fill all six buckets seem to correspond to the images we believe we’ve correctly linked a verse with. The images for which we can only fill five buckets now work with one of the verses that has no definitive mate. Search the estranged verses for a line that identifies the final bucket… and that is your pairing??

Interesting..
I don’t know if this would help new hunters but it helped me narrow down the types of clues I should be looking for the verses.
I only put the ones that most people agree on so there are some missing.
V# Line                                     Interpretation                                                   Type of Clue
1 Fortress North Cold as glass     Glassel School of Art                                    Building
1 Friendship south                     Friendship Pavillion                                           Permanent outside structure
1 To the number nine eight two     SP Train 982                                                   Permanent outside structure
3 If Thucydides is North..             Boston public library names on side of building   Inscription or sign
3 coliseum with metal walls     Fenway park                                                   Building
3 Feel at home                     Mother’s Rest park                                           Park or area
4 Beneath two countries             Cleveland cultural gardens                                   Park or area
4 As the road curves             curved road on map                                           Map reference
4 Socrates, Pindar, Apelles     names inscribed on wall                                   Inscription or sign
8 View the three stories of Mitchell  Mitchell Hall                                                   Building
9 The first chapter                     Sign at FOY park                                           Inscription or sign
9 You can still hear the honking      Geese at FOY park                                           Permanent outside structure
9 Shell, limestone, silver, salt     Sign at FOY park                                           Inscription or sign
9 Stars move by day             Planetarium                                                   Building
11 Pass two friend of Octave..     Wright Brothers Memorial                                  Permanent outside structure
11 Ride the man of Oz..             Washington Baum bridge                                   Permanent outside structure
11 Dark forest                          words from Elizabethan garden entrance            Inscription or sign
11 After circle and square               central fountain area                                      Permanent outside structure
11 In July and August               words inscribed at Ft. Raleigh                         Inscription or sign
11 to mica and driftwood               beach                                                         Park or area
12 where M and B are set in stone Mozart and Beethoven inscribed on building Inscription or sign
12 and to congress R is known       Roosevelt University on Congress Pkwy         Building
12 L sits and left                      Lincoln statue                                         Permanent outside structure
12 rumble                               train tracks nearby                                         Permanent outside structure
12 brush                               Art institute                                         Building
12 music                               Chicago symphony                                 Building

After a cursory look at the 1st couple of pages of the book (the instructions on how to view the puzzle) I noticed the following:
The picture below, a sample puzzle and solve, the jewel, nose and dig spot line up. This template works on Image 4.
Using this template on Image 1 it points to a curved wall or a round planter, similar to my solution under the Columbus statue.
I haven’t spent much time on any other Image but recently I noticed that Image 8’s camel may be a representation of the obelisk.
Below are the links to the other images.
Image 1:
https://imgur.com/W1D4Bw2
Image 2:
https://imgur.com/fsAGY1R
Image 3:
https://imgur.com/5BGgIbm
Image 6:
https://imgur.com/pS6gkyq
Image 7:
https://imgur.com/r3vcVK8
Image 8:
https://imgur.com/1gzvUiG
Image 9:
https://imgur.com/J1MU942
Image10:
https://imgur.com/BZlv5Hx
Image11:
https://imgur.com/uQqaWnQ
Image12:
https://imgur.com/cbCk0m0

It might be helpful for folks to think about how each line of set of lines best describes a very specific object or place.  Even the quotes or literary influences have a point to get across.  I no longer think anything is just fluff or stylized.  Preiss knew his shit.  He analyzed each line and chose specific words and structure to guide the treasure hunter each time to a place that fit both loosely and exactly (if that makes sense.)
Sounds from the sky in verse 7 is just too general as a mention of seagulls.  The place where jewels abound works the same way in being too general -yes, specifically New Orleans, but think about how it shares a further specific meaning such as the ornate lamps of Canal St.

True, although there is an omnipresent -seagull population flying above this local
I agree, seagulls isnt fixed enough.
however I am comfortable  with this  understanding:
Not far away  – Just south/southwest of the park
High posts are three  – Sutro tower on mt Sutro named after SF Mayor Joseph Sutro
Education and Justice  Mt Sutro home to UCSF, UCSF Med School and also a law school
For all to see    – plainly visible from anywhere in lincoln park
Sounds from the sky  Sutro Tower is the largest radio and television tower in the area.
Near ace is high – Highway 1  Leaves Golden Gate park and goes right near Lincoln park
Running north, but first across  Runs north but just past Lincoln park has to run accross the Golden Gate.

Glossiphoniidae

… I used to proffer theories left and right, and I dug A LOT of holes to go with them, only to come up emptyhanded. A buddy of mine just spouted off the other day that he was “through digging holes big enough to drop a body into.” We both agree, however, that knowing where the casque ISN’T is complementary information to knowing where the casque IS. Digging so many empty holes seems to teach one how the puzzle doesn’t work, and allows one to funnel focus on alternate ways it might work. Do you really think we shouldn’t be digging, rather we should just keep proffering theories? How would you ever know if your theorie(s) were/are right or wrong? We are just supposed to keep stacking them on the shelf? It’s a catch-22.

Glossiphoniidae

One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is that people are so resigned to thinking the casques or the clues (at least in the way they think they should be interpreted) are gone. Go to the bottom of the ravine in Milwaukee… stare at the water… No letter, no country, no fifth, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the overlook in Roanoke… stare at the water… No “that,” nothing to be under, nothing last touched or first seen, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the Prayerbook cross… stare at the water(fall)… No object of twain’s attention, no giant pole or step, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the middle of the Children’s Zoo… stare at the fountain… No four alike, no small/split/three winged/slight, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to Mothers’ Rest or Charlestgate… rinse and repeat, et al. Does it ever seem like we are “overlooking” something?

Glossiphoniidae

if you drop solution-bias, it can also provide an opportunity to focus back on the basics…
Forget the verses and the images and the lines and the clues for a minute, get big picture… There’s a puzzle. The puzzle is to find 12 locations a casque is hidden, each in the US or Canada. There is a million square miles where each one could reside. We need facts to figure out where one resides, not subjectivity.What’s the first thing we would need to know to begin funneling down where one might be?

Well said (when penis jokes aren’t being dropped) lol. “Edison-approach”.
Overlooking, possibly. Dug/tried? Do we even know? This is the problem I have with (I’ll call them) “traditional” (the more widely accepted, earlier theories), and the more chaotic “new age” theories….of all of the original, straight-forward theories put out there in the early 2000s (and prior to this forum), were those all dug and ruled out? My first inclination is that these are not to be some fringe-science experiment to have to solve them, they should work as one-off interpretations of the clues, just like Cleveland and Chicago. Once that is established, then the dig spots/parks/cities even, could be opened up and widened to entertain a broader range of ideas. This, I have no problem with. I’d just like to know from a more logical, organized way of “checking off” the theories (i.e organizing the Edison approach). I know y’all think there is a method, and there should be one (THE) hole dug, but in reality, it isn’t going to happen-you and I both know this. This is what we have to work with.
True, not random, chaotic theories, and reasons why we think things should work. A degree of subjectivity is absolutely involved. “Ten by thirteen” wasn’t degrees, it was rows of trees. So yes, there will be that degree of interpretation based on whoever is thinking about the current line of verse. It’s just, where do we draw that line in our mind that the level of interpretation has gone too far. Once the person is “there” in their mind, they either got there by using confirmation bias, or are using confirmation bias to reinforce their own theories and they go further down the rabbit hole. (Hah, I like ‘solution-bias’) At any rate, that’s where I’m coming from and what I’m working on…
And to answer your last question, coordinates.

Accordi g to Egberts reported conversation with Preiss in 2004, “Ten by thirteen” was not rows of trees, it was 10 feet by 13 feet.

erexere

Accordi g to Egberts reported conversation with Preiss in 2004, “Ten by thirteen” was not rows of trees, it was 10 feet by 13 feet.

Being that we all know that not to be the case (i.e., it
was
trees), just marinate on what that means for a few.

erexere

Until such discoveries are made for certain (hopefully not coincidental) we shouldnt be digging holes at all.

erexere

Take my NOLA example for a dig spot. I dont have verification of any of my guesswork, but if it were the correct spot after all, then I’d expect some detail in the image to lend itself to that sense of certainty or confidence that its shovel time.

First off, the sanity exhibited in your post, e, is refreshing. Kudos. Let’s keep this going. I’ll ask a few questions and make a few notes myself …
I’ll tell you this… I used to proffer theories left and right, and I dug A LOT of holes to go with them, only to come up emptyhanded. A buddy of mine just spouted off the other day that he was “through digging holes big enough to drop a body into.” We both agree, however, that knowing where the casque ISN’T is complementary information to knowing where the casque IS. Digging so many empty holes seems to teach one how the puzzle doesn’t work, and allows one to funnel focus on alternate ways it might work. Do you really think we shouldn’t be digging, rather we should just keep proffering theories? How would you ever know if your theorie(s) were/are right or wrong? We are just supposed to keep stacking them on the shelf? It’s a catch-22.
One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is that people are so resigned to thinking the casques or the clues (at least in the way they think they should be interpreted) are gone. Go to the bottom of the ravine in Milwaukee… stare at the water… No letter, no country, no fifth, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the overlook in Roanoke… stare at the water… No “that,” nothing to be under, nothing last touched or first seen, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the Prayerbook cross… stare at the water(fall)… No object of twain’s attention, no giant pole or step, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the middle of the Children’s Zoo… stare at the fountain… No four alike, no small/split/three winged/slight, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to Mothers’ Rest or Charlestgate… rinse and repeat, et al. Does it ever seem like we are “overlooking” something?
And, it’s not even that we lack any evidence of what we think “those things” should be, it’s that the “things” we think we should be looking for are everywhere. We can envision those things as being most anything at any site we think we end at. There is seemingly no specificity like there was in Cleveland in any other puzzle, rather the verses get more vague, more playful, more whole-city encompassing. Trying to dig with that sort of ambiguity makes little sense. If you are 30 inches off, you might as well be 30 feet off, or 30 miles.
What would make you think that? Cleveland and Chicago? Does anything else that worked in Cleveland or Chicago seem to hold true in the 10 other puzzles? Better question might be, does anything in Cleveland and Chicago seem NOT to hold true?
At a certain point, it makes one say, “Fucking shit. What the f**k?” But then, if you drop solution-bias, it can also provide an opportunity to focus back on the basics…
Forget the verses and the images and the lines and the clues for a minute, get big picture… There’s a puzzle. The puzzle is to find 12 locations a casque is hidden, each in the US or Canada. There is a million square miles where each one could reside. We need facts to figure out where one resides, not subjectivity.What’s the first thing we would need to know to begin funneling down where one might be?

tjgrey

Overlooking, possibly. Dug/tried? Do we even know? This is the problem I have with (I’ll call them) “traditional” (the more widely accepted, earlier theories), and the more chaotic “new age” theories….of all of the original, straight-forward theories put out there in the early 2000s (and prior to this forum), were those all dug and ruled out?

tjgrey

My first inclination is that these are not to be some fringe-science experiment to have to solve them, they should work as one-off interpretations of the clues, just like Cleveland and Chicago.

tjgrey

Once that is established, then the dig spots/parks/cities even, could be opened up and widened to entertain a broader range of ideas. This, I have no problem with. I’d just like to know from a more logical, organized way of “checking off” the theories (i.e organizing the Edison approach).

tjgrey

I know y’all think there is a method, and there should be one (THE) hole dug, but in reality, it isn’t going to happen-you and I both know this.

tjgrey

This is what we have to work with.

tjgrey

A degree of subjectivity is absolutely involved. “Ten by thirteen” wasn’t degrees, it was rows of trees. So yes, there will be that degree of interpretation based on whoever is thinking about the current line of verse.

tjgrey

And to answer your last question, coordinates.

From personal experience, yes, the traditional theories have been dug/tried. That being said, the most common conclusions are that 1) the casque is gone; 2) the final marker is gone; or 3) the hole wasn’t big enough.
That seems to be everybody’s first inclination (as well as second, and third, and fourth…). How’s that workin’ out?
It’s called digging.
Who’s “y’all?” And, why isn’t “it” going to happen? How’s the one-off clue interpretation method working out? Seems like the clues just keep casting a wider and wider net as they get vaguer and more ambiguous.
Keep accepting that, then. I happen to be of the opinion that there is more to work with.
While this does seem to be the case on the surface, I’m not so sure. You remember when BP was quoted as saying he had to tell people he had been to every city when asked at parties, because he “couldn’t let anyone rule out any possible locations” (“I always have to say, ‘Yes, yes. I have and I enjoyed it'”)? You remember when BP told Brian he “got all the clues?” Would BP have told him if he hadn’t? Remember, we KNOW that Brian hadn’t. What can you conclude given the fact that BP didn’t share/show the additional “clues” that solved that single puzzle? Why did he give no indication that they existed? What reason would he have NOT to share the clues of a solved puzzle if each puzzle was standalone?
So, you mean, the first thing we would need to start narrowing down land, we were given in no uncertain terms? Hmmm. That doesn’t seem so “subjective.”

Unknown

Unknown:
I’d like to see how any or at least one of the puzzles might be constructed to fit something as simple as a 2-directional system where A and B are anchored to specific visual clues…

I believe that this is exactly how the Chicago casque was buried. One row of marker trees going N/S and one row of marker trees going E/W. Extend those lines and stand on the spot where they intersect, and you were standing over the casque. Or at worst, within a few feet of it owing to the fact that the trees were not in a perfectly straight line, so the intersection was not a simple point, but an area of about 3’x3″. People who have been on site say that this interpretation is supported by the location of the remaining trees as it relates to the spot where the Chicago group said they dug the final, successful hole.

Euhirudinea

I believe that this is exactly how the Chicago casque was buried. One row of marker trees going N/S and one row of marker trees going E/W. Extend those lines and stand on the spot where they intersect, and you were standing over the casque. Or at worst, within a few feet of it owing to the fact that the trees were not in a perfectly straight line, so the intersection was not a simple point, but an area of about 3’x3″. People who have been on site say that this interpretation is supported by the location of the remaining trees as it relates to the spot where the Chicago group said they dug the final, successful hole.

R, I believe that is what E was getting at. Rather than stifle his further examination of the topic with a paragraph that says, “Duh,” I will simply welcome him to the party of logical questioning and trial and error. It’s a good party to be at.
Keep up the questions, E. Proffer broad similarities and try to show how they are constant or or not, even without knowing the actual solutions for certain. Additionally, you may not want to start at the point of digspot when developing these hypotheses, rather at the point of start. Don’t get ahead of yourself too fast. Start big, funnel down.

I’d like to see how any or at least one of the puzzles might be constructed to fit something as simple as a 2-directional system where A and B are anchored to specific visual clues that would easily be perceived as a method for reaching a point of intersection that is the quintessential treasure ground (C).

Thats basically all Im thinking for the moment. Ive withdrawn from overthinking wherever possible. I dont know enough about Cleveland or Chicago to really feel the sense of certainty I would need to expand more particular ideas that would migrate to other location specifics.

erexere

Thats basically all Im thinking for the moment. Ive withdrawn from overthinking wherever possible. I dont know enough about Cleveland or Chicago to really feel the sense of certainty I would need to expand more particular ideas that would migrate to other location specifics.

No disrespect with the below to you E… mad props, but….
To the board, YOU’RE WELCOME!!! Thank you for putting up with my chatter with E for the past couple weeks. I hope you all got something out of it as well (I’d love to hear if/when you do – privately or shared on the forum). I’ve also asked as many questions as I am “allowed” to at this point; so, until next year…
…Four21 out.

Has anyone done a deep analysis of the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles? What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist. I mean 2 or even 3 objects that can take the same meaning. For example, the helmet on the centaur. Looks like a hill, a dome, a cup if you flip it over, etc.
Applying this thought to an unsolved puzzle like SF, could something like a giant pole mean 2 or more “poles” in the same area as reinforcement? Or the globes in Boston being street lamps, features in a park, a newspaper box, etc.

gManTexas

What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist.

Its my opinion (and there are others that would argue with me) is that no, there are no twists, double meanings or deeper connotations.

gManTexas

Has anyone done a deep analysis of the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles? What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist. I mean 2 or even 3 objects that can take the same meaning. For example, the helmet on the centaur. Looks like a hill, a dome, a cup if you flip it over, etc.
Applying this thought to an unsolved puzzle like SF, could something like a giant pole mean 2 or more “poles” in the same area as reinforcement? Or the globes in Boston being street lamps, features in a park, a newspaper box, etc.

I’m in the Chicago area.
I think there may not be any visual clues that can have a dual meaning. But, the first two lines of the verse can have dual possibilities, that lead you to the general area in Grant Park where the Lincoln statue is…
Where M and B are set in stone
Obscure interpretation: Mozart and Beethoven.
Easy interpretation: Man and beast …. that’s a better (if not wrong) interpretation, considering that The Bowman statue is right there, around Congess Parkway, near Buckingham Fountain….and, it’s in the image. That area is a main entrance to Grant Park.
And to Congress, R is known
Congress is just plain ol’ Congress Parkway….but, could have referred the Pick Congress Hotel, which was (is?) nearby on Michigan Ave.
R is known…..
Roosevelt University is there….but, that has you looking away from the park. (West of Michigan Ave.).
Instead….there are
R
ailroad tracks East of the Bowman. That draws you into the park…..walk past the tracks and a bit north, there’s the statue of Lincoln. Go further North and you’re in the section of the park where the casque was found.

I agree, somewhere there is a logical indisputable method that associates image to verse to gem

maltedfalcon

I agree, somewhere there is a logical indisputable method that associates image to verse to gem

Perhaps that is the secret…

The other thing that nags at me is the various orderings of 12.
The order of the twelve verses
The order of the twelve images
The order of the months of the year
The order in which the nationalities are set out in the litany
The order in which the nationalities are set out on the map
I’m intrigued by the idea that hidden somewhere in there, perhaps there’s a mathematical key which ties images to verses. The mechanism seems so intricate, is it really random, with no key…? He must have made a decision, whether to bury a key in there somewhere, or let people hunt for it when it didn’t really exist. Which did he choose…?

Thinking about Chicago and Cleveland, I recall Preiss’ response to the Chicago finders, “you have the right answer, I don’t see why you can’t find the right spot.”  It sounds like once a person is on the right track it’s practically a given that they should have no trouble finding the right spot.  Just like figuring out the Grecian Gardens in Cleveland, although it was tediously difficult to dig up the casque, it’s actual location in the plot was a no brainer.
This has me thinking that all the locations are answers in themselves and they each have some very very telling and obvious setup.

or once you figure it out
you look at the verse and pictures and go
oh thats so obvious how could I have missed it before.

The rate that these sites are changing and/or deteriorating, is far outpacing the rate at which actual progress is being made on the hunt.  Unless something changes, it is getting extremely unlikely that any more casques will be found.
…But at least the mystery will live on!

WhiteRabbit

Well, I dunno.
If you decided this image was NY and went hunting for a 74, I guess you could interpret that as a 74. I can see it as a 74 now, but it took a bit of practice.
You can see anything in these if you look hard enough. Eg, here’s 110/111 for SLC.
…or 25 and 80 for Miami, which has had
Russian immigrants
.
The eagle/liberty/Russia matches are good, but I’m still inclined to keep an open mind on this image.
That’s just conjecture though. We don’t know for sure. The intro has the Fair Folk traipsing all over the place.

While I have my personal views about whether or not there is a deliberate “74” in the image, I would argue that it is largely irrelevant.
Just like Image 10 gives us the Milwaukee rebus, making hidden coordinates unnecessary, Image 12 gives us
the face of The Statue of Liberty
. I think it’s easy to get lost in over analysis. To your initial statement, yes. I have indeed decided that Image 12 is NY based on that. It’s not even necessary to go hunting for 74’s, whether they exist or not.
I see the new play that the dress may be Staten Island, but I’m not a big fan. To me, it looks like he just flipped Manhattan 180 degrees, which we have precedent for with the inverted Illinois in Image 5. I’m not seeing Image 12 possibly being anywhere outside of the general NYC area.

It’s not so much the shape as it is the “S” and the “I” in the shadows of the dress. St. George (the name of both the neighborhood and the ferry terminal) could be another match if Gershwin is “Rhapsodic Man”. Staten Island IS New York City, after all. And one of the few places you can see all the landmarks in Image 12 (Verrazano to the south and Bedloe (Liberty) and Ellis islands to the north). But I think we’re getting more into P12/V10 territory than methodology at this point.
(and for the record, that picture of the 74, White Rabbit, is far blurrier than I see it on my screen. I can see it crystal clear. Maybe a monitor upgrade is in order.)

Frisco

Hmm…it looks exactly like 74 to me. I didn’t think that was disputable, at all.

decibalnyc

As a general rule….If you can’t get there by boat from the ocean (either one of them) it’s not a correct city

Well, I dunno.
If you decided this image was NY and went hunting for a 74, I guess you could interpret that as a 74. I can see it as a 74 now, but it took a bit of practice.
You can see anything in these if you look hard enough. Eg, here’s 110/111 for SLC.
…or 25 and 80 for Miami, which has had
Russian immigrants
.
The eagle/liberty/Russia matches are good, but I’m still inclined to keep an open mind on this image.
That’s just conjecture though. We don’t know for sure. The intro has the Fair Folk traipsing all over the place.

Unknown

Unknown:
Not at all, but I do put stock in what Egbert posted above, and what Preiss was documented to have done/said.

Fair enough. I’m not sure it really matters anyway. I was just looking for an explanation for why the puzzles in New York, Boston, and Montreal are seemingly so much harder than those is Chicago, Cleveland, and Milwaukee and this could be one of those reasons. As far as I am able to tell, nothing that I am suggesting is inconsistent with the best information that I was able to gather on the subject at the time I did the research, which was several years ago. Given the tight deadlines he had to work under, it just makes sense to me that Preiss had a plan, and that part of that plan was to put the northern casques in the ground before winter.

Egbert

(cont’d from above)
Andy and I absorbed a lot of information that B.Preiss had told us about The Secret. I hope I can recall all of it for you here:
1. The Chicago casque was found by 2 young stockbrokers, who lived in Chicago, and had recognized some of the sites and verse references right away. However, at the time, there was some type of renovation occurring, in which a large marble or concrete object had been placed over the burial site. So, they took a picture of it, and sent it to B.Preiss, who acknowledged that as soon as the renovation was finished, the treasure was theirs. He doesn’t recall meeting them, doesn’t have a copy of any newspaper article, but does recall that an article was run in one of the major Chicago newspapers at the time. Flipping through the book, B.Preiss told us that “M and B” stand for Mozart and Beethoven. “Ten by thirteen” refers to feet. “Brush” refers to the Art Museum.
2. I thought that most of the colors on my casque had been washed away, except for 1 creature that I thought looked like an imp. However, none of the 12 casques were fully painted. They were left unpainted, except each one had a different figure painted (there are 12 figures on the casque). My figure is actually the front of a centaur, which is of course contained in the Cleveland pic. B.Preiss did not recall what had been painted underneath the cover (which is in many pieces), but he believes that it may have said “The Secret.” Each key looks the same, but they are different colors (mine is orange).
3. B.Preiss had buried all of the casques over the course of only several days — carrying all of them in a large duffle bag, and armed with a shovel. He researched the sites generally from New York, but then researched each site locally once he got there. He took pics of all of the sites. After they were all buried, he created the puzzles and had John Palencar paint the pics (B.Preiss worked with him to guide J.Palencar as to what to put into the pics). After that, he purchased the jewels, all from 1 jeweler.
4. From the Cleveland pic, he said that we got all of the clues. “Birch” referred to a birch tree that had been there. “Couplet” had referred to a nearby poem (although Andy and I do not recall any nearby). “Free speech” refers to Socrates.
5. B.Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations. However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites. He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have NO connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues.
6. This last part will sadden quite a few of you. Mr. Preiss would like it to be known that he will no longer respond to emails regarding proposed solutions (or asking for hints) — and that he will only respond to actual pictures of casques. I am sad to report that he is a busy businessman, and this is not very important to him any more. I would like to point out, however, that although getting the jewel and meeting B.Preiss was nice, the best part of my adventure was solving the puzzle, traveling to Cleveland, and finding the treasure. You should keep in mind that you are doing this to achieve a personal satisfaction — solving a 22-year-old conundrum — and not just to get a jewel. The journey is more fun than the destination.
I hope I remembered everything — if I think of anything else, I’ll let you know. Good luck in your quests.

I am curious as to why you think BP started in the late summer or fall, and then took probably several weeks to bury them, according to your theory.
I went back and looked at what I had posted on the message board after meeting BP, when it was fresh in my mind. Take a look at #3:

Unknown

Unknown:
I am curious as to why you think BP started in the late summer or fall, and then took probably several weeks to bury them, according to your theory.

I am aware of the information above, but I just don’t buy some of it, especially #3. Number 5 however, I believe completely.
A couple of days? I don’t think so. Even if you knew exactly what you were doing, given the logistics of burying 12 casques all over North America, it would take at least a week, and that assumes that you could do 2 a day. Remember, he didn’t just have to dig a hole in the ground and fill it back up again. He had to walk around, gather information, take pictures, wait for the right opportunity to dig, and then, when he was satisfied that he had everything he needed (because more than likely, he wasn’t planning to return), travel to the next city and do the whole thing over again. Twelve times.
Just to be clear, I am not saying that you didn’t report the conversation that you had with Preiss accurately. I am saying that there is enough evidence (other things that he said and wrote) to suggest that he might have told you things that weren’t entirely true, either because he had forgotten the details, or because he didn’t want to give you an unfair advantage over other people who were still actively engaged in the hunt, and would not have had access to the same information.

Euhirudinea

Verse 2 goes with New Orleans
Verse 6 goes with Charleston
Verse 5 goes with Montreal
Verse 10 goes with New York

Unknown

Unknown:
I believe that NY, Boston, and Montreal were the second set of three that Preiss did, and fearing that he had made the first three too easy, ramped up the difficulty factor considerably.

I’m not as positive as I once was on these. Might take some convincing, but I’m open minded on a different arrangement here. I’m at least willing to entertain convincing alternatives.
As far as the verses? Or as far as the images? I think Image 12 is one of the more obvious. He uses the face of the Statue of Liberty as the “iconic city hint”. That’s light years ahead of Milwaukee City Hall as far as being easily recognizable to the early 80’s layman.

WhiteRabbit

If you’re right, I feel this should be the focus. I’ve seen very little on it. AFAIK the only link that’s been made here is the old Salvation Army citadel in legeater lane.

I’ve explored some ideas here that I can probably dig up my theories having to deal with the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal being the “Granite Walls, Windswept Halls, a Citadel in the night”. I thought the “wingless bird ascended born of ancient dreams of flight” referred to a weathervane, and there happens to be one on top of one of the buildings of the Royal Victoria Hospital.
The Royal Victoria Hospital was also funded in large part by George “Lord Mount” Stephen, so it’s at least connected to the legeater in Image 9, even if that’s a bit of a stretch.
I do think that once we actually figure out what this really means, we’ll make a lot of progress:
Lane
Two twenty two

Glossiphoniidae

Seems like you have pointed out three quotes – ambiguities, edwin and edwina, who build palaces – which definitively link a verse to a city. And look, there are other types of clues in those verses that are so strong, quotes in fact, we can say they
reinforce
, just like the image does, the fact that we are using the right verse with the right image/city.
Do we see this method displayed in any other verses and/or images?
What if we couldn’t find this method displayed in some images and verses? Does that mean it’s not there, or maybe just that it is still too obscure – even with the internet?
Or, perhaps those verses utilize another type of linking method, which might be common amongst a few of the puzzles that couldn’t be definitely linked and reinforced using the first method.

Totally on board with all of this. Despite what I just said, this is largely the foundation upon which I am willing to reasonably try to explore other options. Why would there be a couple of Edwins and Edwinas named after “him”. Edwin Forrest or Edwin Blymot? I’ll give Preiss credit enough to make some of these references swing both ways when trying to connect them to images which at least leaves me open to entertain other options, I suppose.

Euhirudinea

Image 2 is Charleston without dispute. If you think that Verse 7 will lead you to a dig spot in that city, advance the theory. But before you try, you might want to explain away the “Edwin and Edwina” line in Verse 6.

Again, the idea would be that Edwin and Edwina Booth were both named after Edwin Forrest and we are looking for a Forrest reference.
The “On the eighth, a scene” would be in reference to the theater, which all parties involved were stars.

Euhirudinea

Almost without exception, Preiss made simple connections between what he saw as he walked and photographed the streets, trails, paths, and parks of the twelve cities in question. Look at Chicago: set in stone, Congress, L sits, fence, 10×13. All extremely literal clues with at most, one degree of separation. Look at Cleveland: Road curves, rectangular plot, columns, 7 steps, Pindar. Same thing. Milwaukee: Nature, copper, 92 steps, compass, 100 paces SE. A little more poetic, but still no more than one degree of separation.
These were the first three puzzles he did, and they established the blueprint, and set the methodology for the rest. Sure he made subtle changes as he went along, adding and omitting things as the locations and Palencar’s drawings warranted.

An interesting theory on the 3 Midwest cities being first. Could be.
However, I seem to remember either BP or JJP telling me that JJP called BP one day, and tells BP that he has an idea for hiding a treasure in the Greek Garden. I think it was because BP didn’t have a Greek match anywhere yet, but it has been so long, I don’t remember exactly. So, I am thinking that if that actually occurred, then perhaps Cleveland was one of the last cities.
I always thought that St. Augustine was the first one, since the sign that has the “shell limestone silver salt” clue also mentions the word “casque,” and BP thought it meant a treasure holder, although it really was referring to a helmet. That’s where he got the term. Look up the definition of the word casque, and you will see that it is NOT defined as a container.

And Edwin Booth is mentioned on a plaque in New Orleans on St. Charles Ave. between Lafayette Square and the old site of the St. Charles Hotel Domingo Sarmiento loved so much. Dude got around.

Yes, #1 as well is entirely incorrect, which makes me believe that #4 could be incorrect as well, as it is self-contradictory.

Unknown

Unknown:
I always thought that St. Augustine was the first one, since the sign that has the “shell limestone silver salt” clue also mentions the word “casque,” and BP thought it meant a treasure holder, although it really was referring to a helmet. That’s where he got the term.

Winters are mild in Florida. In Montreal and Boston, not so much. While he could have edited the prose right up to the point that the final draft of the book went to the printer (assuming he hadn’t come across the word in his intial research of the park), he had a practical reason for burying the casques from north to south.

Euhirudinea

Winters are mild in Florida. In Montreal and Boston, not so much. While he could have edited the prose right up to the point that the final draft of the book went to the printer (assuming he hadn’t come across the word in his intial research of the park), he had a practical reason for burying the casques from north to south.

Some of that has never struck me as being particularly calculated.

Didn’t I read that 10×13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching?

Unknown

Unknown:
Some of that has never struck me as being particularly calculated.

Are you suggesting that he just wandered the country, putting plastic cubes in the ground at random?

Euhirudinea

Are you suggesting that he just wandered the country, putting plastic cubes in the ground at random?

Not at all, but I do put stock in what Egbert posted above, and what Preiss was documented to have done/said.
We remind me of the superfans that get pissed when their favorite actors don’t remember every single detail of a certain episode/movie they’ve done. I think it’s easy to fall prey to over-analysis, I guess is my point. I am as guilty as anyone.

Frisco

Didn’t I read that 10×13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching?

This shouldnt even be up for discussion after so many members here have been to the site in Grant Park and reviewed the solve.

Frisco

Didn’t I read that 10×13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching?

http://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&p=131519#p131519
Yes, it was from the finders who stated BP told them to go back and count the trees. Without that, they would not have found the casque. So, when #1 from Egbert says that BP told him that 10×13 was feet, I am at a loss.
Like I’ve said many times… don’t believe anything anyone tells you. Find your own proof before putting stock in ANYTHING.

Unknown

Unknown:
So, when #1 from Brian says that BP told him that 10×13 was feet, I am at a loss.

Let me help you out then. By word and by deed, and with the exception of the help he rendered to the Chicago group, Preiss was not at all interested in helping anyone find a casque. At all. As a matter of fact, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he went out of his way to make things more confusing, not less.

I put stock in the verses and images. Anything on top of that and I could second-guess myself into the ground. The 70s and early 80s were weird, man. Anything could’ve happened.

http://kspot.org/trove/ct_111682b1.jpg
“Preiss, 29, hid the jewels over several months as he crossed the country on other business, carrying with him a six-foot shovel and various “disguises” that he won’t discuss.”

forest_blight

…and various “disguises” that he won’t discuss.”

Maybe he was an alternate in the Village People.

Egbert

I thought that most of the colors on my casque had been washed away, except for 1 creature that I thought looked like an imp.  However, none of the 12 casques were fully painted.  They were left unpainted, except each one had a different figure painted (there are 12 figures on the casque).  My figure is actually the front of a centaur, which is of course contained in the Cleveland pic.  B.Preiss did not recall what had been painted underneath the cover (which is in many pieces), but he believes that it may have said “The Secret.”  Each key looks the same, but they are different colors (mine is orange).

It would be interesting to know what these twelve figures are, and see them in more detail.

I would bet they relate to characters in the story that go along with each city.

So, it appears that BP was telling me things that were incorrect, when I got the jewel from him. Saying that under the cover was “the Secret,” saying that 10×15 referred to feet, etc. I do not think he was intentionally doing this. My guess is that 22 years later, he simply did not remember all the details. So, his statement about “St. LouiD” may be incorrect as well, no?

By the books description, there could be one in Mexico. It just says North America…BUT, someone did post an email where BP confirmed there was a casque in Canada…so by process of elimination, in the sense that we have located the city image matches for at least 11 of them (if not all 12) that St. Louis MO would be ruled out as at least 1 of them would have to be in Canada…that is IF Preiss wasn’t lying about that.

Can you take some hi res photos of the casque and spin it around? I’m interested to see the different creatures.
wilhouse

I am pretty sure that we have all 4 sides of the complete Chicago casque somewhere. If we don’t, sure, I can take photos of the Cleveland one.

Unknown

Unknown:
So, his statement about “St. LouiD” may be incorrect as well, no?

Depends. Was he talking about the city, or some part of one of the remaining ten cities that prevailing wisdom favors? We know that St. Louis might factor into the New Orleans and Montreal puzzles, so perhaps we should consider this a case of Preiss being playfully cryptic. But generally speaking, everything Preiss said or wrote after 1984 (after he realized that the Chicago find wasn’t going to produce a renewed interest in “The Secret”) should be considered suspect, and not taken at face value.

Without the internet…the Chicago and Cleveland solves are far from easy.  I think everyone knows that; hindsight is 20/20 afterall.  I’ve been stepping into the 1980s mind set with a little John Denver and Judas Preist.  I’ve been visiting with retired professionals ages 70 and up who worked in jobs like the visitors center for tourism, the art museum, bookstore, and concert hall.  Some of these folks still don’t know about the internet.  Its a shock for me to imagine a world without it…well I can remember…barely.
Tourism pamphlets , travel magazines, newspapers actually do a good job highlighting the iconic sights like the old warer tower or the terminal tower or the transamerica tower or the superdome or the chicamacomico water tower etc.  These old local features all dr aw the attention of fresh eyes….and perhaps the notice of fairies and gnomes too.
Clveland seemed the easiest in its verse length and economy.  Lots of site present dedication to instructions so once finding the two colums at the entrance the rest follows quickly.  Chicago seemed much harder, but a guess at M B or L being initials to a famous person isn’t so hard and then the rest falls into place and we see how Preiss begins to finesse his word choices…rumble and hush..
The remaining verses offer even more variations to keep us from getting bored.  He said he thought we would solve them quickly…no way…has it been only 30 years?  We are simply lucky to find anything.

I think the reason they have not been solved is simple. To solve a particular casque, you needed to be very very familiar with the casque location. A person who was only generally familiar with Chicago would not have had a chance. The people who found it knew right where lincolns shoulder was.
For instance I believe If I was familiar with Lincoln Park in 1982 when I got my copy of the book I would have been able to solve it. I was familiar with San Francisco especially Golden Gate park, but not Lincoln Park.  It wasn’t until a few years ago that I became familiar enough with Lincoln park to recognize it fit. Unfortunately it has changed enough that it doesn’t fit perfectly anymore. (missing and moved landmarks)
As it happened, in 1982 I was not familiar at all with any of our suspected locations of the casques  I think it  kind of like one of those venn diagrams.
Big circle – Readers of the book
Tiny slice People who are familiar with the casque Sites and read the book
Smallish circle People who are very familiar with the casque sites
as a matter of fact, I suspect the only people who are in the tiny slice were the people who found the chicago  casque.
Now there are more people in the tiny slice but the locations have changed too much.

This is not meant to be a criticism…more of an observation….
There are countless instances of all of us saying things like “BP wouldn’t do that” or “That’s not what BP intended,” “BP Didn’t know his tree’s” etc…
Lets review what we do know about BP…
He was a teacher with a degree
He ran a business
He was an author, editor, and publisher
He was a traveler
He won a Grammy
He developed a video game
He made a treasure hunt
Probably a lot more than that as well
I don’t think that any of us have the wisdom to comment on BP’s thoughts, style, or methods.
I would trust Siskel and Eg’s comments about BP as they actually met the guy…but let’s not let our personal opinion of what he may or may not have thought or done cloud our research..thats all.

Lots of good thinking lately.  The ambiguity of any verse aspects is in my opinion that which makes it a puzzle.  However we intelectualize the finer points we must always face the reality of orientation and placement of a casque in some setting.  I’m sure some pieces of verse help get us to the setting, but the bulk of it is needed to establish the immediate surroundings.
I’ve dramatically shifted the way I approach this hunt over the past couple years.  Now I’m finding it most compelling to do a virtual exercise in a setting that I suspect to hold a casque and break it down into major features, for example: a bunch of trees, one big statue, a church steeple across the street, a fire hydrant…nothing else of note.  Then I look to the poem for clarity.  Should there be 20 lines of poem, it’s acceptable to me to see the first 3-4 lines as introductory to some key approach, the next 3-4 lines as a description of a statue, etc., and the meld one or two significant visual clues to the image.  When it all makes sense, you know you’re ready for action.  maltedfalcon knows what this process is all about.  He’s used his strict logic and best instincts to dig immediately beyond the balustrade and tried a number of different approaches to the various objects in the local sphere of influence.  Unfortunately it’s a tampered area…so much has changed that its really really difficult to see any way of recovery based on good solid principles.  I disagree that the SF casque is lost, but that requires a more ambitious approach, which isn’t a methodology that seems motivated by the overall image/verse/or past solves.  I understand that…I just think this isn’t the time to shut out the more creative approaches.

Not sure if anyone else has made this discovery, but the shape of the largest section of the centaur’s tail is exactly rotated 180 and mirrored about a vertical axis when compared to the shape of the curved shape around the rectangle of Cleveland’s Greek Cultural Garden.  This method of working map imagery might be applied to the remaining images.

fox

I have nothing further your honor.

Unknown

Unknown:
Code:
Select all
ride  (rīd)
v. rode (rōd), rid·den (rĭd′n), rid·ing, rides
v.intr.
1.
a. To be carried or conveyed, as in a vehicle or on horseback.
b. Sports To participate in a board sport such as snowboarding.
2. To travel over a surface: This car rides well.
3. To move by way of an intangible force or impetus; move as if on water: The President rode into office on a tide of discontent.
4. Nautical To lie at anchor: battleships riding at the mouth of the estuary.
5. To seem to float: The moon was riding among the clouds.
6. To be sustained or supported on a pivot, axle, or other point.
7. To be contingent; depend: The final outcome rides on the results of the election.
8. To continue without interference: Let the matter ride.
9. To work or move from the proper place, especially on the body: pants that ride up.
v.tr.
1.
a. To sit on and control the movement of: rode a motorcycle to town; ride a horse to the village.
b. Sports To glide or move while standing on or having one’s feet attached to (a board, such as a snowboard).
2. To travel over, along, or through: ride the highways.
3. To be supported or carried on: a swimmer riding the waves.
4. To take part in or do by riding: He rode his last race.
5. To cause to ride, especially to cause to be carried: The police rode him down to the station.
6. Sports To control (an opponent) in wrestling, usually by holding the opponent down.
7. Nautical To keep (a vessel) at anchor.
8. Informal
a. To tease or ridicule.

Serious question. Has anyone here taken a good look at The First Crazy Word Book: Verbs, by Byron Priess (1982)? I very glad to own a copy.
The reason I ask, is that it’s an extremely simple exercise to turn a few pages and know exactly where Byron Priess is coming from. In that book, he’s not trying to disguise or hide anything. He’s being perfectly honest in his intentions to bring a small collection of verbs to the beginner reader. The focus and attention he devotes to each single verb is truly amazing.
I know I’ve got ahead of myself one to many times when taking an alternate approach to various words and their usage in the verses, but I think people can make the mistake of dismissing the actual possibilities that exist when considering the alternatives. I’m not saying The Secret is as simple as looking at the example of the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs, but I do think it’s a simple effort to where idiomatic or alternative usage might exist. Byron Preiss actually makes the this particular claim in the preface of the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs. So that’s a small fact to consider and that’s why I approach the Secret as I do.
Take the example from Verse 11 and Image 3: “Ride the man of oz”. We typically think of the word “ride” as it would apply to transportation. The dictionary expands our options:
Here, option (8a) tells us that “ride” can be used as to mean “to tease” or “to ridicule”, and as such I explored a slightly different context for the line in how “ride” relates to the “man of oz”. I think the cleverness of the line requires that we include two meanings, both “to travel” and “to ridicule”, because I believe the “Roanoke” puzzle is strongly influenced by the Wizard of Oz, given that the Baum name is historically attached to the region and the connection we’re meant to make is to the Wizard’s hot-air balloon as it translates to the First Flight of the Wright Bros. for the purpose of this puzzle. The part of the balloon in which one would ride is the basket. I even wonder if the spherical balloon carrying a cube shaped basket is the parallel to “circle and square”, but that’s probably another case of me getting ahead of myself.
I think there’s ample opportunity for Preiss to have researched the general history of the coastal area in NC and once digested, he came up with an idea to take Baum/Wizard of Oz and play on the First Flight’s history. He looked more closely at that history, included words from the Wright Memorial itself, and designed a puzzle that fit the Fair Folk of England’s garnet by linking the rescuers of the HMS Mirlo disaster on August 16, 1918. Six surfmen of the Chicamacomico Life Saving Station heroically rescued the Englishmen from the burning wreckage after being struck by topedo from a German U-boat. All six men belonged to the family with the surname, Midgett. Life Saving Station workers were also involved in the First Flight when Daniels, Etheridge, and Dough joined a lumber merchant named Brinkley and a 16-old kid named Johnny Moore to witness the Wright Brothers success.
There continues to be a connection to riding a basket if we consider the July and August Wreck Pole drills by the US Coast Guard.

I’ve been working out a document which attempts to explain the way the verse works.
First Line = designed to connect an idea to a specific place
Lines which follow and excluding Last = designed to draw the minimum needed references to find a specific “square” of ground
Last Line = subtle confirmation that you’ve found the correct spot
I feel like I’m closing in on the way the First Lines work. The last lines are still very mysterious to me. I should have an explanation for Chicago’s “Hush,” and Cleveland’s “For the search,” but I don’t, so this theory fails to meet expectations. It’s difficult to say for sure given changes, or lack of any confirmation, but I believe “Hush” has to do with a water drain pipe of some kind that could relate to the 10×13 spot in Chicago. A hush is a terminology which may apply to anything which channels water.
I wonder at the possibility that a special type of “search” is being hinted by Cleveland’s line, possibly a “wordsearch”, which is a rectangular grid of letters that presents the challenge of finding words spelled in various directions, including backwards, which might offer an additional explanation as to why Sir Egbert was stymied by the reversal of the dig instructions which seemed to fit an oddly opposite scenario, reversing Right and Left…or the convention based on which side of the wall you’re suppose to establish such directions.
In V7, the last line is “the casque is kept”. I think ‘kept’ = keep = a jail = behind bars. This is very vague and slippery territory, since we don’t know if we’re looking at literal bars or something that we might pretend to be bars. The balusters of a balustrade for instance. Some fencing. A grating. Who knows…

Continuing the thought on the Last Line,
V9’s “Years pass, rain falls,” reminds me of V3’s “In truth, be free.”
In the V3 thread I expressed my idea that it could be saying “base the decision on where to dig precisely on treating the Somerset gates forwards S connecting to its backwards S as like a truth table which may use p and q, and the idea that the gates vertical bars across the S is like a $ symbol. Its the most intriguing way to make both portions of the line share the same object. I believe V9’s comma separated ideas also perform such a task. Its still a huge and vague riddle in my mind especially since I have absolutely no visual evidence to support my view. Exciting challenge. So, what sorts of things could this apply to? If “be free” means NOT $ in a truth table analogy, then maybe “rain falls” has to do with a calendar or age requirement setting…like being measured for a roller coaster ride…rain fall is measured in vertical inches and you have to be a certain height (which assumes you’re old enough) to ride safely. Any other ideas?

Scratch the measurement of rainfall or funride height requirements.
I think it fits the idea represented by Roberts Rock, a monument to the man responsible for the Rules of Order where a “motion” may be made at a public hearing and a vote may be rendered by all in attendence. The word ‘precipitation’ is the key.

erexere

Bringing the geometry/map convo to this thread.
There seem to be some significant effort to roughly align landmarks on a map to some of the undisputed art elements, i.e. water tower=windmill, earring=fountain, etc.

Well thats interesting but its basically meaningless unless it also can be shown in cleveland.

Frisco

The original rules didn’t require digging, but we can’t get the answers otherwise now, for sure. I didn’t mean to suggest that it wasn’t great that you’re digging, just poking fun at the fact that you’re so smug about it.
I agree about going back to the drawing board, which is why I think it’s odd that you’re so vehemently opposed to exploring theories that don’t agree with the rules you’ve arbitrarily set for yourself and your group. Personally, once I dug a few empty holes based on certain assumptions, I’d start at least considering that my assumptions might be partly at fault.
But that’s a topic for methodology, and one we’ve already agreed to disagree about.

This is a decent post here, Frisco…
“I didn’t mean to suggest that it wasn’t great that you’re digging, just poking fun at the fact that you’re so smug about it.” There’s two types of digging – 1) diggin in Oregon; and 2) diggin in lake park. I couldn’t give two shits (or one for that matter) where you dug in lake park, it would be a good thing. However, diggin in Oregon is seriously fruitless, and I have no qualm being smug about it. It is not helpful… we already knew the casque wasn’t there. in lake park though…
“I think it’s odd that you’re so vehemently opposed to exploring theories that don’t agree with the rules you’ve arbitrarily set” – I have no rules… ask renovator. I’m probably the most open-minded of this entire board (insert subtle shoutout to the juggler here). HOWEVER, I do try to stay in the confines and context of the way BP and JPP created clues, which they did methodically. For instance, when you are on Wheel of Fortune and the topic is “things that annoy you,” “i” isn’t a very good pic when “n_ggers” is on the board. So, when you are in a city, stay within the context of the game you are playing. It seems like many don’t even realize we are supposed to be guessing letters at all, let alone know the game we are playing.

Unknown

Unknown:
I have no rules… ask renovator. I’m probably the most open-minded of this entire board (insert subtle shoutout to the juggler here). HOWEVER, I do try to stay in the confines and context of the way BP and JPP created clues, which they did methodically. For instance, when you are on Wheel of Fortune and the topic is “things that annoy you,” “i” isn’t a very good pic when “n_ggers” is on the board. So, when you are in a city, stay within the context of the game you are playing. It seems like many don’t even realize we are supposed to be guessing letters at all, let alone know the game we are playing.

You definitely have rules. And you’re also making assumptions about the way BP and JPP created clues. That was the main point of your numerous Facebook rants–that there is a way these puzzles work and any theory that didn’t fit in that framework gets ignored by you and your group. That’s the sort of thing I mean–we really have no idea how these puzzles were created, outside the rough outline of burial->Polaroids for JPP->verses written. And we have no idea if they all follow the same method. All we have to go on are two found casques that practically hold your hand all the way to the dig site.
Some of the remaining verses are far more complex than Cleveland and Chicago ones, so I’m not confident that the verses are holding our hands as tightly anymore. They may be, though, so I’m happy to entertain both possibilities.
My only “rule” so far is that I don’t think they’re anywhere near as convoluted as some people theorize, but even that may be wishful thinking on my part. So even if I stick with simple explanations, I’ll happily let others do the complex ones.

Frisco

You definitely have rules. And you’re also making assumptions about the way BP and JPP created clues. That was the main point of your numerous Facebook rants–that there is a way these puzzles work and any theory that didn’t fit in that framework gets ignored by you and your group.

Frisco, there are certain things we have learned about this puzzle that took us a very long time to understand, so yes we do ignore things that don’t fit in the framework, there is a reason, and that is we have seen how exploring these options leads us off course. As Renovator explained you can make a Verse apply not only to multiple cities (just about any city actually), but also to multiple locations within the same city. The only way to distinguish right from wrong is to know why it’s a correct path. The only way to do that is to go back, study what we know, and apply it to the technique. Because everyone on our team has made an agreement to one another that we would keep the knowledge we share within the team only, we can’t just come out and tell you why certain things are right or wrong but 421, Renovator, myself, and a few others on the team have been dropping huge hints on here from time to time for the smart people to maybe pick up on. My hints are mostly ignored so I just stopped posting them, Renovator and 421’s theories seem to be argued against time and time again. Other members of the group haven’t really dropped too many hint’s, but the point is, we have dropped a lot of knowledge on here over the last month, and there are only a few people listening, and most of them are arguing against our theories instead of looking at what we have been trying to say. I’d love to expound on it more but all of us are busy digging this month. We have been digging and doing on site research all year actually. In my opinion, and we have been working strong on this as a team for 3 years now, through our own heated debates and some people’s brains almost exploding, we understand how this puzzle works. Maybe we aren’t 100% on all of it, but we are in the 90th percentile. When you immerse yourself in this thing for years, when you visit the historical societies, look through books and books of archives, endless search results, and just put in the work of trying to fully figure out what things looked like in the 80’s, and fully figure out how these verses work, and constantly go over them time and time again, you just pick up on what BP was doing…his way of hiding clues, his types of clues, his way of tying things in etc… We have left enough bread crumbs on all of these threads, not to mention all the posts we have put up individually prior to us getting together on our own, to give a picture of what we think is going on here…and anyone willing to open their mind and read between the lines is going to pick up on it. So yes, we do ignore certain finds, because there is a right and wrong in this, and you need to figure it out before you can follow the verse correctly.
Also we could just come out and post all our theories on here, but that’s not going to help because they will just be argued against because they don’t fit what other people think they know, that’s why we are trying to get all of you to figure it out for yourselves by dropping hints, but everyone is so recalcitrant towards what we have to offer that it’s becoming fruitless.

Unknown

Unknown:
I’d love to expound on it more but all of us are busy digging this month.

How patronizing.
Why bother with your little hints? Just to feel superior? You want to help people, but not enough that they’d compete with you? Is there even anyone active on this forum not in your “elite” group other than myself and erexere? Why do you guys bother logging in here at all?
Anyway, just because multiple people have agreed on what is right and wrong in this hunt doesn’t make it correct. The remaining puzzles may not follow the same pattern as the two solved ones, and even if they do, the proof is in the pudding.
Go dig up some pudding, then maybe I’ll go back and search your bread crumbs. But until then, I’ll just assume you guys are only in this for yourselves and won’t be sharing anything important.
Really. You couldn’t type a longer post because you’re about to rush out the door with a shovel. Well, sorry to have held you up.

What a load of crap.
Great to hear you’re working together, but stop yourself when you say you’re dropping hints. You’re explicitly trolling and its just as easy to see you’re trolling in between the lines.
So you have a cosy framework that you understand as a group. Its theory until you recover a casque. If you continue to treat the process like you have answers or “proof” then you may as well join the hoax-community.

Frisco

How patronizing.
Why bother with your little hints? Just to feel superior? You want to help people, but not enough that they’d compete with you? Is there even anyone active on this forum not in your “elite” group other than myself and erexere? Why do you guys bother logging in here at all?
Anyway, just because multiple people have agreed on what is right and wrong in this hunt doesn’t make it correct. The remaining puzzles may not follow the same pattern as the two solved ones, and even if they do, the proof is in the pudding.
Go dig up some pudding, then maybe I’ll go back and search your bread crumbs. But until then, I’ll just assume you guys are only in this for yourselves and won’t be sharing anything important.
Really. You couldn’t type a longer post because you’re about to rush out the door with a shovel. Well, sorry to have held you up.

That just proves my point…you think its some diabolical plot. It’s not, just like the way people dive into this with a bunch of answers already provided, you don’t learn anything when someone tells you the answer, you learn by figuring it out on your own. You’re not holding us up, my flight leaves tomorrow, I was checking in on here to see if anyone had bothered to make any progress and to review some posts from 2006…all you seem to wanna do is find a way to dispute what we say instead of pick up on what we are trying to guide you into finding out. Keep taking stabs in the dark, doesn’t bother me.

decibalnyc

That just proves my point…you think its some diabolical plot. It’s not, just like the way people dive into this with a bunch of answers already provided, you don’t learn anything when someone tells you the answer, you learn by figuring it out on your own. You’re not holding us up, my flight leaves tomorrow, I was checking in on here to see if anyone had bothered to make any progress and to review some posts from 2006…all you seem to wanna do is find a way to dispute what we say instead of pick up on what we are trying to guide you into finding out. Keep taking stabs in the dark, doesn’t bother me.

I think what is a diabolical plot? That your group scours the forums for info from other people and then doesn’t share anything with the hunting community? I don’t think that’s diabolical–just human nature.
The only things you guys have given me to dispute are some random “hints” with no context, a strong belief that you are the only ones here not in the dark, and the attitude that digging a bunch of empty holes makes you more qualified to fabricate rules for the hunt. By that measure, and with your giant brains, it shouldn’t be tough to figure out why people aren’t in total agreement. I haven’t seen a single thing that makes me believe you (or anyone on the forum) knows more than anyone else other than your own insistence. That’s just a side effect of your group being so secretive. You expect me to take your word for it that you’re brilliant treasure hunters without any concrete evidence? Pass.
I’ll definitely keep taking stabs. I make my own light.

Frisco

… That your group scours the forums for info from other people and then doesn’t share anything with the hunting community?

… Says the noob to the people who have been posting their shit on the forum since its inception. Facepalm.

Glossiphoniidae

… Says the noob to the people who have been posting their shit on the forum since its inception. Facepalm.

Decibal, who I said that to, joined a little over a year ago. You joined in 2010. I believe this forum has been around since 2001.
Do you know what “inception” means? (hint: it’s not just a crappy movie)

Frisco

I haven’t seen a single thing that makes me believe you (or anyone on the forum) knows more than anyone else other than your own insistence. That’s just a side effect of your group being so secretive. You expect me to take your word for it that you’re brilliant treasure hunters without any concrete evidence? Pass.
I’ll definitely keep taking stabs. I make my own light.

Well one of the guys in our group owns a casque…is that not evidence?

Nope. Its unproven that the method for one casque is the same for another.

decibalnyc

Well one of the guys in our group owns a casque…is that not evidence?

My wife is a doctor, but you probably don’t want me giving you a physical.
But seriously, while I think that Egbert did good work in finding his casque, I don’t think that particular puzzle gives a whole lot of insight into the others. Definitely not
all
of the others. V4 is almost unique in its dearth of clues and precise dig location. There are definitely lessons to be learned there, and I think Egbert is an intelligent guy, but I don’t think he is some sort of Rainman that is making your group into treasure-hunting savants.

No, and we never said that any of us were gods of the hunt as you’re kinda making it out to be….but we all have been open to each others idea’s and from that we started to get a bigger picture of what was going on. We argue all the time, but we all take a little from each others ideas to see the bigger picture. We are all trying to help without giving out answers. We are trying to get you and others to come to some conclusions on your own. There are a lot of things that people miss just jumping into this with some of the answers already provided, without understanding how and if those answers that you got from the wiki page or here are correct. Frisco we aren’t trying to be all high and mighty…just maybe consider that we might have figured some things out…10 people working on this like 5-8 hours a day or night, some of us every day for months…we put a lot of time into it. I think we are all happy to debate plausible theories, but the whole reason we got the group together 3 years ago is that there was a severe lack of any type of theories on here for a while. Now that there appears to be intelligent people with some pressing questions, maybe we are trying to help out. It’s just kinda discouraging when people make ad homonym attacks.

Again, glad to see you’re working in your group, but please don’t pretend that you’re helping by keeping information to yourselves.

decibalnyc

No, and we never said that any of us were gods of the hunt as you’re kinda making it out to be….but we all have been open to each others idea’s and from that we started to get a bigger picture of what was going on. We argue all the time, but we all take a little from each others ideas to see the bigger picture. We are all trying to help without giving out answers. We are trying to get you and others to come to some conclusions on your own. There are a lot of things that people miss just jumping into this with some of the answers already provided, without understanding how and if those answers that you got from the wiki page or here are correct. Frisco we aren’t trying to be all high and mighty…just maybe consider that we might have figured some things out…10 people working on this like 5-8 hours a day or night, some of us every day for months…we put a lot of time into it. I think we are all happy to debate plausible theories, but the whole reason we got the group together 3 years ago is that there was a severe lack of any type of theories on here for a while. Now that there appears to be intelligent people with some pressing questions, maybe we are trying to help out. It’s just kinda discouraging when people make ad homonym attacks.

Listen, I don’t mean to start drama with your krewe. I’m just discouraged, myself, by the attitude of this search all around. I, too, have been spending hours a day every day for months on this, but I’ve also done it without having hardly anyone to talk to about it. Half of the people in this hunt are sworn to secrecy, half of them are too bored to care, half of them are erexere and hurt my brain, and the other half are on the Wiki taking Oregonian’s nonsense seriously. (I am aware that the math does not add up there, but you typed “ad homonym”, so I expect no pushback from you on that point.)
So if you truly want to help the hunt and the people working on it, I don’t understand the secrecy. If you want to solve them all by yourselves, that’s fine too. It’s the in-between that can get annoying, since while you may not be trying to act “high and mighty”, that’s how it comes off.
Just my noob opinion.

Bringing the geometry/map convo to this thread.
This prob been done and ackowledged somewhere before.
There seem to be some significant effort to roughly align landmarks on a map to some of the undisputed art elements, i.e. water tower=windmill, earring=fountain, etc.
I’d like to treat this as a methodological certainty and then move on to how to produce some kind of strategy that links a large iconic landmark to the jewel placement in the image for at the very least a general direction to go from that landmark that would lead to a casque. For reference: pink square is used for the general area where the casque was found in Grant Park and my assumption is that the jewel in the image represents casque location. The yellow rectangle is for a curve that looks characteristic of the back of the giant’s head, I don’t think that’s been mentioned before.

Frisco

Listen, I don’t mean to start drama with your krewe. I’m just discouraged, myself, by the attitude of this search all around. I, too, have been spending hours a day every day for months on this, but I’ve also done it without having hardly anyone to talk to about it. Half of the people in this hunt are sworn to secrecy, half of them are too bored to care, half of them are erexere and hurt my brain, and the other half are on the Wiki taking Oregonian’s nonsense seriously. (I am aware that the math does not add up there, but you typed “ad homonym”, so I expect no pushback from you on that point.)
So if you truly want to help the hunt and the people working on it, I don’t understand the secrecy. If you want to solve them all by yourselves, that’s fine too. It’s the in-between that can get annoying, since while you may not be trying to act “high and mighty”, that’s how it comes off.
Just my noob opinion.

I like your posts Frisco. But I kind of like the idea of a casque-cracking SAS working in the shadows; that’s fine too.

WhiteRabbit

I like your posts Frisco. But I kind of like the idea of a casque-cracking SAS working in the shadows; that’s fine too.

The romanticism fades a bit when Batman pops in your house occasionally to hand you a picture of a hubcap and tells you that if you were smarter, you could build a Batmobile.

After reading the PM you sent me, I’ve concluded Frisco, that you are just a dick…and yes that is an ad homonym attack, I have only so much patience and I was willing to discuss things with you…maybe shed some light on your misconceptions about some of us, but you’re just an A-hole. Before I could even talk to you about anything you’re calling my friends names, telling me you don’t need my help, and asking me to tell you who I work with so you can alienate them also, Best of luck with the witch hunt Joe McCarthy.

Maybe the Chicago Water Tower and Buckingham Fountain are tied together in a geometric motif because both fit the control of water motif.

decibalnyc

After reading the PM you sent me, I’ve concluded Frisco, that you are just a dick…and yes that is an ad homonym attack, I have only so much patience and I was willing to discuss things with you…maybe shed some light on your misconceptions about some of us, but you’re just an A-hole. Before I could even talk to you about anything you’re calling my friends names, telling me you don’t need my help, and asking me to tell you who I work with so you can alienate them also, Best of luck with the witch hunt Joe McCarthy.

How could I alienate your group? I’m one person, and your group makes up, I’m guessing, a large percentage of active posters on this site. If anyone’s being alienated, it’s the few of us who aren’t in your group.
I apologize for rejecting your request to chat, but I really do think that we would have very little to talk about, given the limits on what you’re allowed to say. I wouldn’t have sent you a PM at all if you had not reached out to me.
It’s not a witch hunt–I asked who was in your group so that I, personally, could know who and who not to bother wasting my time trying to collaborate with. Sometimes I want to chat about things and I message a specific user so that we can do it real-time, since forums are slow. If I know who will and won’t be able to talk to me, I can save both of us the bother. You already know which of us you can’t talk to–why can’t the rest of us know who isn’t allowed to talk to us? It doesn’t seem like an unfair request.
I don’t see why you’re being so dramatic over what I thought was a fairly polite extension of what I’ve already said in this thread–I’m all cool with your exclusive group existing, but some of the “elite” group’s interactions with the forum feel, to me, unhelpful and patronizing. (Not all–I’ve never seen a poor attitude out of Egbert, for example.) My “misconceptions” were formed solely based on direct interactions with individuals. How would your words speak louder than their actions?
(By the way, it’s “ad hominem”. A homonym is something different entirely.)

Although the orientation of the Chicago Water Tower is upright for P5, the Terminal Tower in Cleveland is upside down and negative space, which suggests there is variability in orientation. When I look at Image 2, there are two clear landmark points: Fort Sumter and the map of Charleston. I think the scale of the map outline might be a rough but correct size relative to the jewel point. The Sumter point, like the CWT or the TT, is not to scale with respect to casque distance.
Anyone want to try this with a prospect site and share?

Kalessin

I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar.
One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year.
The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

Kalessin, just reading your post again and I’m seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless.
https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com … an-zodiac/
https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the … rabbi/2394
http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 … srael.html
What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The
Secret
and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa.
Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

Kalessin

I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar.
One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year.
The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

Kalessin, just reading your post again and I’m seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless.
https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com … an-zodiac/
https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the … rabbi/2394
http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 … srael.html
What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa.
Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

gManTexas

Kalessin, just reading your post again and I’m seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless.
https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com … an-zodiac/
https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the … rabbi/2394
http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 … srael.html
What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The
Secret
and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa.
Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice.
Of the three links you posted, the first doesn’t use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources.
The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It’s written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it’s considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided.
The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity.
If you’re playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The
Secret
, there may certainly be something there (though I don’t don’t get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

gManTexas

Kalessin, just reading your post again and I’m seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless.
https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com … an-zodiac/
https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the … rabbi/2394
http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 … srael.html
What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa.
Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice.
Of the three links you posted, the first doesn’t use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources.
The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It’s written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it’s considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided.
The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity.
If you’re playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret, there may certainly be something there (though I don’t don’t get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

Kalessin

Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice.
Of the three links you posted, the first doesn’t use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources.
The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It’s written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it’s considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided.
The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity.
If you’re playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The
Secret
, there may certainly be something there (though I don’t don’t get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

That is a great answer, thank you. Well thought out.
Then perhaps it is just a plot device. Although we could say that over time, as these notions began to evolve and take hold, they could be somewhat attributed to the 12 Tribes. For example, there is some thought that the gemstones in Aaron’s breastplate evolved into the birthstones we commonly use today for the months. While there is not necessarily any religious meaning behind them, some people would like to revise history and find connections. This is kind of like the Easter Bunny, not many people question why we have an Easter Bunny. I’m not in that camp, I would rather know if there are any actual connections. However, from a fantasy or fairy tale point of view, it seems to fit the overall narrative of The
Secret
.

Kalessin

Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice.
Of the three links you posted, the first doesn’t use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources.
The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It’s written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it’s considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided.
The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity.
If you’re playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret, there may certainly be something there (though I don’t don’t get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

That is a great answer, thank you. Well thought out.
Then perhaps it is just a plot device. Although we could say that over time, as these notions began to evolve and take hold, they could be somewhat attributed to the 12 Tribes. For example, there is some thought that the gemstones in Aaron’s breastplate evolved into the birthstones we commonly use today for the months. While there is not necessarily any religious meaning behind them, some people would like to revise history and find connections. This is kind of like the Easter Bunny, not many people question why we have an Easter Bunny. I’m not in that camp, I would rather know if there are any actual connections. However, from a fantasy or fairy tale point of view, it seems to fit the overall narrative of The Secret.

I don’t know if anybody is interested, but I have a fully scanned copy of the book at 600 dpi with OCR (i.e., fully searchable). All 224 pages are included. As this is copyrighted content, I am not making the link publicly accessible. Please let me know if you’d like the download link. If/when provided, please do not post online… any where.

All I’m saying is there is no telling how much of a role some of the thematic points play in this.  Not much to go on really, except the Greekness of it all.

It’s all Greek to me. Lol

I have a feeling there isn’t much left to the images as far as traditional onsite matches. We seem to be beating a dead horse here. Cleveland and Chicago were found because there are so many onsite image matches. The rest likely have different methods.
There are three things I believe we should shift our focus to in the images.
1. Map waypoints or map related objects.
2. What am I’s- think Lincoln in SF or Mace in Roanoke.
3. Mini Puzzles- Montreal’s “find me here” finger pointing in the GSM, Sf’s 3/4 finger pointing.

One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC?

GoldenMartyr

One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC?

If we take “the sign” in Verse 10 literally, then we should be looking for a sign that wither contains words from the Verse, the Image, or a derivation of the meaning of the words in the Verse.

The best find there seems to be the Fraunces Tavern sign.

GoldenMartyr

The best find there seems to be the Fraunces Tavern sign.

Can you elaborate on that? Reasoning and how the location relates to the puzzle?

You mentioned taking the sign literally. Fraunces Tavern has a sign that speaks of Indies native. It was discussed a lot years ago but fell off with the changing of the guard.
It’s claimed to be “the oldest building in NYC” and is a couple blocks east of Battery Park.

GoldenMartyr

You mentioned taking the sign literally. Fraunces Tavern has a sign that speaks of Indies native. It was discussed a lot years ago but fell off with the changing of the guard.
It’s claimed to be “the oldest building in NYC” and is a couple blocks east of Battery Park.

This assumes that we are looking in lower Manhattan for the casque, correct?

gManTexas

This assumes that we are looking in lower Manhattan for the casque, correct?

I’m making zero assumptions. Assumptions are a problem IMO.
My original comment was that there may be text onsite for NYC, MKE, and SF, given there is text onsite for 9 of the 12 puzzles(methodology). You brought up the fact that we may be looking for a literal sign in NY, to which I then replied about Fraunces Tavern.
I feel that some puzzles have been narrowed down to a specific area using logic. Others, not so much. The way I approach the puzzles which I feel have not been proven to be in a more specific area, is to look at the best possible interpretation of the clues in their respective cities.
If Fraunces Tavern were an acceptable interpretation to a treasure hunter then it would point to lower Manhattan. That would be better suited as a V10 discussion….we sort of crossed over from methodology.

GoldenMartyr

I’m making zero assumptions. Assumptions are a problem IMO.
My original comment was that there may be text onsite for NYC, MKE, and SF, given there is text onsite for 9 of the 12 puzzles(methodology). You brought up the fact that we may be looking for a literal sign in NY, to which I then replied about Fraunces Tavern.
I feel that some puzzles have been narrowed down to a specific area using logic. Others, not so much. The way I approach the puzzles which I feel have not been proven to be in a more specific area, is to look at the best possible interpretation of the clues in their respective cities.
If Fraunces Tavern were an acceptable interpretation to a treasure hunter then it would point to lower Manhattan. That would be better suited as a V10 discussion….we sort of crossed over from methodology.

I agree.

GoldenMartyr

One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC?

Where is the onsite text for image 11?
Moreover, where is the site? haha!

strike13

Where is the onsite text for image 11?
Moreover, where is the site? haha!

Many will attach T and X at the BPL as the on-site text. Josh Cornell even landed his solve there, it has to be there….

BINGO

Many will attach T and X at the BPL as the on-site text. Josh Cornell even landed his solve there, it has to be there….

Yes, I believe it is the verse, not image pointing to T and X.
My thought is this. Byron Preiss had a very successful career in literature. It’s no secret that children’s books were important to him and held a special place in his heart. The BPL is a fantastic specimen and was the first library to establish a space for children. I have trouble believing that he wouldn’t visit the BPL. Even if he had not visited, it was shown in encyclopedias, et al. I just cannot convince myself that this is a huge coincidence.

Im not sure yet.  Just some arches to look at.

So, what are you looking for here?
Are you trying to reverse-engineer the arch to see if it gives any additional insight to the Cleveland solution, or do you think it applies to Houston somehow?

As proud as he would’ve been after setting this hunt in motion, I wonder if Preiss felt bad about some of the places he hid casques. Thinking most would be solved and a few might never be found…only because he hid them in really questionable places.

erexere

Maltedfalcon, can you explain why you think this parking lot looks like the woman’s head and how its justified to use a rotated image?

sure
I arbitrarily cut the image along an imaginary non-existent line. and then based on the magnetic lay lines located in Haight Ashbury, home of the flower child movement, I aligned the image with the non-magnetic north (taking into account the right descension of the sun, because after all Lincoln park is 20 blocks west of haight ashbury. And because it wouldnt fit if I left it straight.

maltedfalcon

sure
I arbitrarily cut the image along an imaginary non-existent line. and then based on the magnetic lay lines located in Haight Ashbury, home of the flower child movement, I aligned the image with the non-magnetic north (taking into account the right descension of the sun, because after all Lincoln park is 20 blocks west of haight ashbury. And because it wouldnt fit if I left it straight.

Confirmed. +1

I see. Yeah, considering he doesn’t say that of all the casques, the one associated with verse 5 must be in a real private area.

If “get permission” is as literal as it seems, it’s pretty galling that Preiss would do this in light of the then-current news stories about Masquerade fanatics digging up all kinds of private property, people’s lawns, etc. in search of the hare. And if someone is concerned about being “scooped” on a casque, are they really likely to tell a property owner, “I think there’s buried treasure here. Okay if I dig it out?” Finally, if you’re supposed to get permission to dig, did Preiss get permission to bury?

I thought about that too. The permission line may be part of the hunt and not literal. Maybe the site is near a “permission” reference. Maybe a trespassing sign or private property sign. Something along those lines.

Deuce

I think the permission aspect is all about your approach. When I went to Milwaukee I asked permission from the parks director to probe only. She knew about the book from other people asking to search the parks. I told her I would only probe and if I did find something I would let her know before I ever put the shovel to the ground. She said if I found something we’ll talk about a possible dig but I would have to prove that it was indeed the site. So she didn’t say no. She was actually interested. She was mainly concerned with people just randomly digging up parts of the park without asking and appreciated how I went about it. I called her when I got there and I called her when I was leaving. If we ever narrow down a site 100% I’m sure I can get permission to dig there.

That’s an excellent resource to have, Deuce.
The only reason I mentioned the “get permission” part is to point out that from we we know of Cleveland and Chicago, the dig site related to the “permission” line in Verse 5 would need to be more precarious than Grant Park or the Cultural Gardens, locations which he evidently did not feel were necessary of a similar caveat.

Wonder if all the locations draw the position of a Thirteenth Treasure? ;^)
I mean, like a letter X with the center missing?
Just “musing” at all the GREEK mytology leads — like the locations where all the first Fraternal orders were started during those old colligiate days . . .
Just musing . . .

More and more I’m gathering the sense that Preiss drew from a very deep well of synonyms and homonyms resulting in confusion when we try to resolve these raw verses.
Here’s my take on telling the intern to get me a bagel with cream cheese and a cup of coffee,
Grant this wish
A circle covered, beaten spool
And with lampooned Colonel’s chalice filled

My casque-box replica project:  as expensive as plexiglass is I should really try to get it right.  I’ve got six sides to make a rough cube shape.  Dimensions as follows:
(2) 6.25″ x 6.25″ x 0.25″
(4) 6″ x 6″ x 0.25″
It’s basically a bottom and a top capping four walls joined together simple 90 degree style.  No mortice or fancy joint making here…It’s designed to withstand pressure from above but not so much from the sides.
Cost is about $40.

I don’t have the info off hand
but the info is on this board somewhere,
Relatively soon after he died there was an announcement that the rights to all his publishing properties had been bought.
however important to note that did not include any information about the solutions.
which remained in his private papers and are still owned by his widow.

When it comes down to it, I suspect Preiss knew he was designing each location for those with a personal connection to the clues.  The internet blurs that line to a degree, still the advantage will be in someone’s home court.  The question then is how to make it so its not too easy for a local and not impossible for a tourist?

I don’t think it’s crazy to assume that more or less he stuck to things that were pretty accessible. It’s unlikely (in my opinion) that the NYC one for example is going to be in a small out of the way park in Forest Hills, simply because you can spend a lifetime living in the city and never hear of or stumble upon some of the hundreds of parks.
He was a history buff, but that doesn’t make him an on the ground expert of 12 different cities, and we know he flew around with the jewels & a shovel rather than having a carefully orchestrated team. We also know that he sent the artist polaroids and possibly notes/books on the places. It’s probably likely that the locations are all findable in tourist guides/info guides/place of interest maps, etc, which I think would keep it fair for tourists to have a shot, or for people to come from out of state.
Because, seriously, if they’re all in McDonald Park (
https://plus.google.com/112705534128601 … l=us&hl=en
) type places we’re effed anyway & should just give up.

I’m not saying Preiss needed to be an expert on any given area.  If anything, his fresh and first time perspective was his main resource.  Imagine, he lands into an area, looks around the skyline for a tall distinctive structure, see what nearby historically or culturally distinct park setting is nearby (within a few miles, the furthest distance at which you can see a tall object).  He slapped his own personal spin on each maybe some disconnected reference to Lincoln, a hat motif, or a folklore/fantasy/fun kind of idea.

Need to ask a question, soneone on here might have done the research already.
Who owns The Secret?
I know Preiss Vis Pub went Chapter 5 and then sold to a company.
Do they own it ?
Can the rights to that book be bought?
Any info would be helpful.

I was just revisiting some of the rules of the Secret, specifically, “They may be hidden in your city or your local park or even in your own backyard. You might even figure out one of their hiding places without leaving your house…”
I thought about a couple of places we have been searching that literally lead to someones yard: the FOY location I’ve suggested next to the HoJo, and the Sullivan’s Island location that WR has proffered. Perhaps that is why we have the “get permission to dig out” line.
While I don’t think that the majority of locations are in somebody’s yard, I can’t imagine BP would have put in those lines if at least ONE location was not in a yard.

erexere

Byron’s Problems:
1) which jewel is in each painting?
2) which poem works with each painting?
3) how does the visual evidence support a general locale?
4) how do the lines/words bring attention to the setting for a casque?
At least we have all of #1 worked out.

5) how do I narrow down the land area from half a continent to a square foot?

Unknown

Unknown:
5) how do I narrow down the land area from half a continent to a square foot?

Which half?

Euhirudinea

Which half?

The top half of North America.

Byron’s Problems:
1) which jewel is in each painting?
2) which poem works with each painting?
3) how does the visual evidence support a general locale?
4) how do the lines/words bring attention to the setting for a casque?
At least we have all of #1 worked out.

I don’t know how accessible JJP is but I always theorized he has a better grasp of these clues than anyone. He did after all paint them. Maybe one day he will change his mind on helping us. If he was forth coming he could tell us what some of the objects he painted were. He might remember tid bits or we could show him some of the obscure clues and ask him, “is this a hydrant?” “is this a dragons head?” and so on.
I would, for one, love more clues. We have lost too many to time.

Okay, this is kind of a long shot and if it weren’t for the fact that the landscape of the hunt has changed (in many, many senses) and that it’s been thirty years already, I’d probably feel like this was cheating. But I don’t. So:
How accessible is Palencar? I know he doesn’t know the solutions and is sort of in the dark about a lot of the hunt, but has he been willing to answer questions about The Secret?
Specifically, I’m thinking that it would be very helpful if he could give some information about which elements in the images were taken from photographs BP gave him.
We’ve established that he doesn’t have the original Polaroids and that he doesn’t know the locations in which the photos were taken, but I still think it would be a massive help.
This is especially true for me in the case of Image 11 – the other images at the very least can be narrowed down to a city or state via landmarks. But 11 has me completely stymied.
So I guess that’s my question: how accessible Palencar has been.

Personally, I wouldn’t want any hints or any information from him at all. That would spoil the fun and the challenge.
But it might be prudent to ask him to make sure he isn’t the only one who knows about the casque locations. Maybe put the information down on paper and hide it in a safe or something.

I really don’t want hints but it would be nice for some feedback.  If the signs are clear as can be and we know there’s been a definite interruption in the landscape or markers needed to solve the puzzle then I can understand wanting clarification.  I think we’re getting kinda close to that point with San Francisco.  Malted has done lots of digging and the solution looked very favorable.  I think collectively we have all worked out some good solutions and even dug a few holes.  Maybe we can offer a sum total of all of our efforts in an easy to peruse presentation for Palencar to review.  He doesn’t have to give us hints, but if he knows something for sure and it looks like there’s some intervening reason preventing a recovery he can tell us, or he can simply weigh in and say he likes someone’s approach, it looks like a good interpretation of the visual clues.  I would expect he’d know his own drawings best.  I have a feeling he’s in the dark as much as we are about the verses.
I suggest we all pitch in for one gigantic troll sized care package with tasty treats, flowers, and anything else to show our appreciation for his work, send it to him with our gigantic summary and then see if he responds in his own time.  I nominate forest_blight as the contact person.

Went to the Indians game today and couldn’t help but keep looking at the Terminal Tower on our way in. This hunt is really something. I’ve learned more history from this thing than I did in 6 years of history classes. Just wanted to share that. Here’s to hoping a casque is found soon. Cheers!

Back at ya Deuce!  Lets simply put things together, remove the obstacles, and produce a casque.
Now dont be afraid to take a fresh look at these puzzles.  The Chicago and Cleveland puzzles make sense…the rest should mke sense too.
Just keep asking yourself what is required to justify any sensible location.  Take some pointers from the many individual views here but be sure to make a stand for any shred of sense that comes to you.  Good luck!

WhiteRabbit

This looks like a popular type of clue. These can be short, inconsequential phrases, often on their own line. Worth looking for more! I’m going to try Googling for
“Not far away” inscription
etc…

While the puzzle could be designed in such a way, isn’t this as good as being random? Aren’t you picking and choosing which line, or words to base your findings on in an unsystematic way? At the very least, wouldn’t it be more method worthy to use something like the first line as a basis for inscription only clues? Chicago’s “where M and B…” and verse 9’s “the first chapter” would support that, but many of your other links to inscription fail to follow such a rule. If you mean to suggest that a specific type of clue is found anywhere in the verse, that’s something considerably more wild.
I’ve been thinking more about the Picture Path suggested by maltedfalcon. I’ve also been thinking about a geometric rule that uses the jewel location in the image in conjunction with at least one other shape in the image. These two ideas seem to merge into something of possible use in the cases of Chicago and Cleveland. That being the case, I think it may work for all puzzles.
Here’s
Chicago
. It’s not perfect, because I really don’t know the exact spot where it was recovered, but the concept involves drawing a line from the jewel to the nearest most confirmer and also drawing a line from the the jewel to the iconic shape in the image. Fortunately, we know that the fence arch is the nearest visual confirmer. We won’t know that piece of information in the other puzzles, so things aren’t going to unfold so quickly if this discovery turns out to be real. Chicago’s historic water tower is the iconic shape. It’s a giant structure that can be seen from a great distance. The line drawn from it to the jewel is longer than the line drawn from jewel to fence/arch. This illustrates how 10×13 is applied. The longer line is the 13.
The iconic structure cooperates with the final line of verse.
Hush = idiom: Pipe down!. The water tower is literally a vertical pipe. BP takes this large structure idea and distills it down to something small and fairfolky, hidden in plain sight. The electric light poles fit that description.
I believe Cleveland does the same thing when it says “seek the columns”. A type of column is a terminus. It represents a statue carving, like a bust, on top of a column. I think the line drawn from the terminal tower to the jewel coordinates with the line drawn from from jewel to the shape of the confirming wall-sketch centered between the columns. When standing at the columns and seeing the wall in the distance (side opposite the planter), that’s a straight line. You find the backside of the wall by the verse by hopping up seven steps. Flip the image (mirror horizontal) over so that the Terminal Tower is right side up and notice how that line to jewel points to the lower right. This corresponds with the verse description of the bricks.

I still hope there might be progress on one of these by identifying some previously unrecognised feature. For instance, looking at this:
The bottom left might be curving steps. The mushroom-like shape in the bottom right might be something.
I suspect there might be a few tree drawings hidden in these, though I hope he didn’t do too many trees.
Another thing I’m wary of is that there are red herrings in the images. This is definite. The question is how misleading they get…whether it’s just that they might include a picture of something from a different part of the city than where the casque is, or whether they could include false maps/coords.

I think the only red herrings in the image are the ones we create.

decibalnyc

… the only red herrings in the image are the ones we create.

+1

Long flights of steps seems to be a common theme for many of the locations:
– Milwaukee has its 95 steps.
– New York Prospect Park has 105 steps to the top of Lookout Hill.
– San Francisco giant steps everywhere.
– Montreal has a long stairway up to top of Mount Royal Park.

wk

Long flights of steps seems to be a common theme for many of the locations:
– Milwaukee has its 95 steps.
– New York Prospect Park has 105 steps to the top of Lookout Hill.
– San Francisco giant steps everywhere.
– Montreal has a long stairway up to top of Mount Royal Park.

The common theme is that no casques have been found at the locations you list. Not to say casques are not at those locations, but linking the steps and the cities just isn’t a clue if it isn’t helpful in determining the casques’ locations (even if the casques were to be found at these locations). This is like my/others assertion that trains and their tracks are a theme… Of course they are found near the locations… they are everywhere, which yields an unhelpful, however true, linkage. It’s too broad of a hypothesis.
I’ve actually wondered if this same reasoning applies when we talk about the Olmsted commonality. He was everywhere back in the day, so surely we are going to find his hands all over the parks of major cities. Is this helpful, I dunno… Pick a random major city and see if you can’t find a major park within originating with Olmsted.

Yes, so it served as a double clue.  The only clue that I did not know, which was revealed after the treasure was found, was the State of Ohio hidden on the left side of the image.  JJP also mentioned that “there was something about the centaur’s helmet,” but no one has ever said what that was.

This is a total afterthought, but interesting to see some classical Greek column/entablature/pediment structures at the heart of three of the solutions I’ve come up with.  Two of which are no longer present in that form since having been rebuilt.
Image 9 – Stanley Park, Vancouver – Lumberman’s Arch (original)
Image 7 – New Orleans – Roulle Family tomb peaks over the wall of the Cemetery
Image 12 – San Juan Island – Officer’s Quarters (Replica style of General Grant’s home)
Image 8 – Hermann Park – Miller Outdoor Theater (original building)
I’m not saying all the solutions are required to have this kind of connection.  I just want to note a trend outcome I noticed during my search for answers

You ALL have done a wonderful job. I am new and still trying to sort through what has been posted before. I don’t want to step on any toes nor offend anyone, but you need to go back to the very beginning. Mr. Preiss taught Elementary History. He would have picked a historical time and matched it to the site.
Bryron Preiss – April 11, 1953 – July 9, 2005 – 52 years old – lived in East Hampton NY –
• Native of Brooklyn NY – Wife Sandi Mendelson, daughters Karah and Blaire
• Graduated Magna Cum Laude University of Pennsykvannia in 1972, Masters earned at Stanford
• Elementary school teacher, 1971
• 1974, founded Byron Preiss Visual Publications
• Preiss Publication filed for bankruptcy in 2006
• Mr. Preiss scouted locations, devised clues and buried the treasures himself.
• Preiss was quoted, ” I thought the treasure hunt was going to be too easy”. Sunday magazine
• Paintings commissioned 1981 – John Jude Palencar ( Where are the original paintings?)
Image 2 is Charleston – April – diamond – slave / What happened, in April / in Charleston / regarding slaves? “First shot Fired”( April 12, 1861), Civil War, Fort Sumter, to free the slaves.
Image shows Fort Sumter tied to a tree / Linking it to something else / tree limb matches hwy 703 which leads to Sullivan Island where Fort Moultrie is.
Citadel Cadets manned that station and it is debated that they actually fired the “First Shot”, at a supply ship, Star of the West, to prevent supplies reaching Fort Sumter.
I have gone trough other stuff and other paintings but am too tired to try and figure out how to post it all. Still Trying. I have a meeting with the Citadel to, hopefully, confirm clues and verify if Mr. Preiss requested burial there.

don’t forget that he also won a Grammy in 1985 and wrote a book called Dragonworld which was made into a Commodore64 video game where you had to (you guessed it) walk around and collect the Dragon Stones. Seems like the story in “The Secret” is a take off of The Hobbit as well…all of these guys seemed to be way into Tolken…wouldn’t be surprised if there is Tolken references in the verses somewhere
Obit in the Times-
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/11/nyreg … .html?_r=0

Maybe I am showing my age…but I played that Dragonworld video game on my C64 when I was a kid 🙂

I also think there is some kind of pattern going on with the origin of the fair folk for the specific treasure and some kind of cultural garden or park with strong cultural references to that origin.
Can we at least find out if all of the cities contain some kind of big public garden, and are they near anything related to the image or verse so far?

erexere

Compare the phrase “for goodness sake”. Notice the reversal of sake and goodness.

I was just thinking about that. It is an odd turn of phrase, isn’t it? I can’t even interpret it at face value, let alone as a clue.
Along similar lines… what the heck are “simple roots” anyway? That’s a phrase that sounds fine to us because it’s so familiar by now, but if someone wrote or said it in another context, we would scratch our heads and wonder what they’re talking about. Simple as opposed to what? Complex roots? Does simple mean small?

Context is everything.
I was just thinking about “there’s a road that leads to…” and I thought, hey, what about Damascus?  Damascus, Oregon is less than 20 miles away from Corbett…but the correct context would be more associated with the Outer Banks, where there’s the Oregon Inlet just south of Roanoke.
Simple roots…seems like it should apply to music or epic poetry, depending on how you interpret rhapsodic man, and then whatever is meant by soil, which could be either simple earth, or something fouled.

I think it would be interesting to study Preiss. It might give us an idea of how the man thought and formulated these puzzles. Perhaps some of his work has references to the Secret.

Wow, your
neighbor
? What are the odds of that!

FB, I shouldn’t bother, though it’s always nice to bring someone flower bulbs.  I’m just probing the farthest reaches of a desperate idea that Preiss could’ve checked with a few of his contacts on recommended locations.  We know JJP gave him the idea for where to bury the Cleveland casque.
Ultimately, I’d expect anyone having involvement in Preiss’ location ideas would get a mention in the book credits.
I wonder what J.M. Reaves might offer as a perspective.

wk, thanks. Conundrum is VERY fascinating.
I don’t like all that fancy geometry stuff anymore. There’s a lot of intuitive convention in how to locate something. Whatever was wrong with the Chicago finders perception of the area, Byron couldn’t understand why they were having trouble so he gave them the polaroid to help. I don’t have any idea what they were missing. I don’t even know if there’s any point in asking them now. Things have changed. Memories could be off about such highly specific details…and those details which were unobserved to begin with…forget about it.
The LotJ has me most suspicious. That portion of the hunt has a major Big Lebowski feel to it, like when the Dude says “that rug really tied the room together.” I honestly think there’s a hidden word that pulls things into perspective.
Aquamarine: Bound. Think of the two definitions for the word, 1) a boundary or border, and 2) to spring forward or over something. A boundary is something shared by two countries. The casque was found in a rectangular bounded area. “Seven steps up you can hop”. For the search: determine your boundaries.
Emerald: Bristle. 1) a short stiff hair or a hair that stands straight away from the skin, 2) to become irritated. Fence posts and lamp fixtures are set in stone and stand vertically up and away from the ground. Hush, relax, settle down, compromise in agreement with whatever it is that is so disagreeable.
Sapphire: Icebreaker. 1) a type of ship that may navigate icy waters, 2) a thing that serves to relieve inhibitions or tension between people, or start a conversation.
Turquoise: hmmm. Gonna think on this some more.

wk

If someone were to post a solution to the exact location of a casque, does that cause any problems now that the book has been republished as an e-book?

I don’t follow? Why wouldn’t we post one if we found them? Also where was it re-released, I didn’t see that?

it is on Amazon as an e-book by Sean Kelly. I just feel less inhibited in what I discuss if the book is out of date but now it has been re-published
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6969&p=128281&hilit=amazon#p128281

Playing with a variety of location perspectives, I had only proposed a few reasonable possibilities. Last week I discovered another idea: the wedge.
The wedge is just a variation on “two lines intersecting”, but it has a critical difference in the way it may be hinted at. As an example, I might call attention to the letter X, and draw attention to four different points of reference which close on a nice intersecting point in their interior. The variation of a wedge might also use four described points but the two closest points each follow a line connected to their respective distant points and I might use a letter V as a hint. This isnt meant to suggest Byron is using the letter V in verse 10 in this manner or Xenophon in verse 3 as an X hint for such a locating method. I’m just exercising a thought experiment.
Here are some of my suggestions on how points of reference are being used in combination for each of the locations:
Cask 4, specified by counting stones in a wall
Cask 5, “X”, 90 degree reference between two lines, fence post-park lamp and a set of lamps along the edge of the bridgehead.
Cask 1, “L”, large line reference between two distant points, giant pole-step, refined by a small scale reference of a bench-line intersecting with a point where “arms crossed” is reflected by the large scale “bridge crossing”.
Cask 2, vertical, where the fruit falls, below the tree. Maybe the tree-fruit is metaphor for rain cloud-cistern and the casque is buried in the sand below the bar (place to drink) that binds (holding tank), which sits above the sand on two cement pier blocks.
Cask 3, vertical, below the end of a platform across a large pole.
Cask 6, wedge, based on the shape of an icebreaker.
Cask 7, intersection, maybe 90 degrees, like the hands on a clock set at 12 and 3, “time keeping”.
Cask 8, slope, a straight line guided by a high point reference to a point of lower reference which then projects to a point on the ground, hinted at by the sloped stone near the pillar and the reference to scale the verse.
Cask 9, vector, magnitude and direction in a straight line, count steps based on a reference to a significant object known as the 9 O’Clock Gun, from some spot in the middle of a three giant outdoor checkerboards in the shadow of a roofed shelter made from giant trees.
Cask 10, vertical and edge, up against a wall or bank, under the boot, hinted at by imperialism, below one of the south pointing boots of Kosciuszko.
Cask 11, “T”, intersecting points, non-perpendicular, but based on two sets of objects, between two lamps and next intersected with vertical green line through an S, for a money symbol, $, only reversed symbolizing the negation of cost = lit by lamplight/be free.
Cask 12, ?…I have an idea, not ready to share it.

I promise you that all remaining riddles will be solved in a method
CLOSER
to Chicago and Cleveland’s, like the method tree posted a few pages back.
I am not saying every single one is exactly the same, or some can/cannot have different elements or types of twists/puzzles. I won’t make those statements. But I promise you that there are not 11 that work the same way and then one based on totally strange symbolism.

I’ve been steadily improving my work on these puzzles. The statements I’m making involve a core theory that dictates some method of constraint was used in their design. There’s lots of theories to toss around and lots of ways to test them if we are willing to move beyond these forums and exercise them. I’m glad you, Xiesh, are doing your part and testing your ideas. I hope you might reconsider some of my ideas. Its okay if you don’t.
If its not clear to folks already, I may have done a poor job of phrasing my intent, I’m using a simple tactic of searching for constraints that each serve a purpose:
Does the Litany of the Jewels apply to the hunt?
Does the Vanishing hold any weight in the way it describes the Fair Folk’s departure into remote places when they saw the White Man landing on the Eastern border?
Does the verse have a consistency in design or structure? Ive found word definition or familiar phrase context that may be applied in a specific way for each of the first lines and each of the last lines. The body of the verse seems to apply to outlining specific people, places or events. The image elements Seem to coordinate in some cases.
Each of my theories that Im exploring has some evidence to support it and the review of Cleveland or Chicago supports my insights. Various reports and articles bring different pieces of information to us about Cleveland and Chicago. Nobody has confirmed understanding 100% of those solutions and the non-necessity of such is clear in their successful recoveries despite having little or no confirmation from Byron on HOW or WHY he used ALL elements in his puzzles.

erexere

Playing with a variety of location perspectives, I had only proposed a few reasonable possibilities. Last week I discovered another idea: the wedge.
The wedge is just a variation on “two lines intersecting”, but it has a critical difference in the way it may be hinted at. As an example, I might call attention to the letter X, and draw attention to four different points of reference which close on a nice intersecting point in their interior. The variation of a wedge might also use four described points but the two closest points each follow a line connected to their respective distant points and I might use a letter V as a hint. This isnt meant to suggest Byron is using the letter V in verse 10 in this manner or Xenophon in verse 3 as an X hint for such a locating method. I’m just exercising a thought experiment.
Here are some of my suggestions on how points of reference are being used in combination for each of the locations:
Cask 4, specified by counting stones in a wall
Cask 5, “X”, 90 degree reference between two lines, fence post-park lamp and a set of lamps along the edge of the bridgehead.
Cask 1, “L”, large line reference between two distant points, giant pole-step, refined by a small scale reference of a bench-line intersecting with a point where “arms crossed” is reflected by the large scale “bridge crossing”.
Cask 2, vertical, where the fruit falls, below the tree. Maybe the tree-fruit is metaphor for rain cloud-cistern and the casque is buried in the sand below the bar (place to drink) that binds (holding tank), which sits above the sand on two cement pier blocks.
Cask 3, vertical, below the end of a platform across a large pole.
Cask 6, wedge, based on the shape of an icebreaker.
Cask 7, intersection, maybe 90 degrees, like the hands on a clock set at 12 and 3, “time keeping”.
Cask 8, slope, a straight line guided by a high point reference to a point of lower reference which then projects to a point on the ground, hinted at by the sloped stone near the pillar and the reference to scale the verse.
Cask 9, vector, magnitude and direction in a straight line, count steps based on a reference to a significant object known as the 9 O’Clock Gun, from some spot in the middle of a three giant outdoor checkerboards in the shadow of a roofed shelter made from giant trees.
Cask 10, vertical and edge, up against a wall or bank, under the boot, hinted at by imperialism, below one of the south pointing boots of Kosciuszko.
Cask 11, “T”, intersecting points, non-perpendicular, but based on two sets of objects, between two lamps and next intersected with vertical green line through an S, for a money symbol, $, only reversed symbolizing the negation of cost = lit by lamplight/be free.
Cask 12, ?…I have an idea, not ready to share it.

I see what you are doing but you need to include geometric points on a triangle as a possible method.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=263&p=2195&hilit=parry+point#p2195
There is a surprising variety of ways to arrive at the final location as described in the solutions to this book:
http://www.treasureclub.net/publichunts/conundrum/
If you read 8. A Child’s Dream three villages form the triangle but then you have to consider the perpendicular bisector of the triangle.
I have not found anything like this yet in The Secret but I am suspicious of the circular items being juggled in Milwaukee image.

On the topic of BP choosing a location…what do you guys (and gals) think? Probably safe to assume that BP knew what cities he was burying a casque before he got there, right?
What about the actual park/patch of land that he was going to bury it? Do you think he knew what park (or area) he was going to bury before he got to the cities, or do you think he found the best park based on the theme/fit of the hunt once he got to each city?

I wouldn’t be surprised if he had everything planned out ahead of time, mostly because what I’ve noticed (and I think I typed yesterday above) is that there are what appear to be
intentional
red herrings in every one, both in the verses and paintings, actually.
I think it would be very difficult to arrive at a city, pick a spot, then hope you can write clues that fit multiple locations on purpose. That’s just a guess, as I’ve imagined doing a hunt of my own like this someday while scoping out Boston. But as usual it’s just speculation.

I think he planned to some extent and then made excellent observations that fit his style wanting each location to have a somewhat unique feel and method of placement.

Xieish

I wouldn’t be surprised if he had everything planned out ahead of time, mostly because what I’ve noticed (and I think I typed yesterday above) is that there are what appear to be
intentional
red herrings in every one, both in the verses and paintings, actually.
I think it would be very difficult to arrive at a city, pick a spot, then hope you can write clues that fit multiple locations on purpose. That’s just a guess, as I’ve imagined doing a hunt of my own like this someday while scoping out Boston. But as usual it’s just speculation.

Yeah I honestly wouldn’t be surprised either…but…
I’m not really on-board with the whole red herring idea…him saying that he expected these to be solved within a few months or whatever seems like it wouldn’t be that complex of a puzzle/hunt. I think these are for the most part straightforward, it’s just finding the area of city that the verse and image clues match.
I think he would have some ideas of where to look before he got to the cities, but once he got there he either went on tours or grabbed tourist info (provided he didn’t have a great knowledge of any given city he was visiting). I really don’t see him having the specific site picked out before getting there because there is so much in the local clues that lead to the dig site that he would not have known. Clues that you develop while walking and looking around actually being there. On top of that, he couldn’t have researched things like the “fence and fixture” that were in Grant Park-he would have had to have been there to know that was there to make clues to that park.
My take anyway. Thoughts?

I believe I mentioned this after Siskel and I met with BP to get the jewel. BP said that he would have a general idea of what he wanted to do before he got to the city, and then did more detailed research once he got there. As tjgrey just pointed out, certain things hidden in the picture you just could not get from another city, without the internet and google maps. The fence and fixture, the helmet window, and many other images which we can now see via the internet but could not see 30 years ago.

His process may have evolved after establishing his easiest to find casques. His method may have included a true red herring only to distinguish the hardest puzzles.

I’m with tjgrey on this one, regarding the “red herrings.” Can someone please list a few examples? It was my theory that every word of every line is relevant, and every item in every Image.
For example, in Cleveland, the L and the bell seem to point to “Liberty Bell” and Philly. I suppose you could call that a “red herring,” but a “red herring” is a clue which is later deemed irrelevant. In this case, it refers to Liberty Blvd. – so it’s just a “tricky clue.” Similarly, in the Chicage verse, “Congress” is mentioned, but instead of Washington DC, it is referring to a street name.

I agree with that mostly whole cloth. I believe that he knew generally where he wanted to bury them, or had a few possible sites picked out (by sites I mean areas or parks, not like the actual physical dig spot). I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a start location in mind, and a few historic points to hit along the way. But then I think he just walked it and took pictures of things that didn’t appear transient (though some of them turned out to be, especially over
decades
. Once in the park he looked for a good spot to dig
I think he walked around with a Polaroid camera and took photos along the way, then decided which ones were good clues & sent them to JJP. (edit: For fun, I have a neat pet boston theory that ties into this. I can’t prove it, it’s just a little pet theory of mine)
I have another theory about the site that points to him knowing ahead of time, and I’m not being coy, it’s just far too early to post anything. I’m trying to collect my evidence and thoughts and self-falsify. If I get to a point where it feels like I may have something I’ll post up what I’ve got. It’s a bit of a stretch, but it is falsifiable or not, I just need to sit down and do the research and collect my thoughts. It’s in the “possibly crazy theory” stage right now.
I think something that’s important: To some degree we need to call out the Cleveland hunt when discussing methodology. JJP has said that he suggested the spot & was there during the burial, so we know BP had an idea going in – likely an exact spot, or close, and it may not fit the other patterns. It may, but we need to think about it in context.

Egbert

I’m with tjgrey on this one, regarding the “red herrings.” Can someone please list a few examples? It was my theory that every word of every line is relevant, and every item in every Image.
For example, in Cleveland, the L and the bell seem to point to “Liberty Bell” and Philly. I suppose you could call that a “red herring,” but a “red herring” is a clue which is later deemed irrelevant.

Absolutely Eg. First thing I think of is a clue that is mis-leading when I think of a red herring and I don’t think that would have been his intent.

Xieish

I think something that’s important: To some degree we need to call out the Cleveland hunt when discussing methodology. JJP has said that he suggested the spot & was there during the burial, so we know BP had an idea going in – likely an exact spot, or close, and it may not fit the other patterns. It may, but we need to think about it in context.

JJP suggesting that spot could have (probably?) just been that spot? Wasn’t JJP from Cleveland? (I just don’t think it would have been like this case for all of the locations.) So he would have known more of the local cultural parks, gardens, etc in the area…I would imagine BP talking to him, explaining his hunt, how it had cultural/immigration themes, and JJP coming back, saying he knew a spot. Basically BP had a man on the ground in that particular location, like he may have been his own expertise for the NY casque.
I know none of this for sure, just speculation…there IS a method to my madness

Red herrings play with our asumptions, here are some ideas:
Image 12 red herring: looks like statue of liberty 1) primary assumption is NY, 2) possible intention: lesser known statue of liberty at Alki Point near Seattle for RusALKI themed puzzle.
Image 9 red herring: lamp leg of transcontinental railroad builder 1) assume a location near his home, 2) or consider a miniature train modeled after the train that first made the trip to Canadas west coast.

erexere

His process may have evolved after establishing his easiest to find casques. His method may have included a true red herring only to distinguish the hardest puzzles.

I DO actually think that his puzzles “evolved” as he progressed. Look at the clues, how the structure of the verses work. They seem to go more vague than the two solved, and IMO, the Houston and FOY ones.
As far as red herrings and multitude of layers and associations, I just don’t believe that’s the way this was set up. But then again, I don’t have a casque on my mantel either

Mmm I don’t mean those types of red herrings. I just mean clues that could apply to multiple locations. The way you know you are at the
right
location is: if it’s a verse clue there will be a direct image match, and if it’s a direct image match it should be nearby to a verse clue. Two image matches in a row also confirms you’re on the right path.
For example the lamp leg in Montreal is not at all a “red herring” by my means. The statue of liberty being “obvious” but not actually being the Statue of Liberty would be a better example. Another one IMO is the map of the Observatory area of Hermann Park, I don’t think that map is anything important to finding the casque. At best, it’s a confirmer for the park, but IMO it’s a fake map inserted to throw people off the trail. It’s too easy – anything that jumps out at you like that is too easy and designed to throw you off. If it was as simple as going “that looks like part of Hermann Park!” I think we’d have dug up more than 2 in 30 years.
I don’t think the statue of liberty refers to the one in Vegas or Seattle at all, just that it might not be at face value. Or in Boston the “In truth be free” leads people to Harvard by default – something that generates an “obvious” thought in your head but it’s not that.
I ask that you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and apply exere’s type of red herrings to what I’m talking about. I just think that a lot of clues were designed to have 2 different possibilities and finding multiple clues along the same path is how you narrow it down.

Yeah, but dont confuse multilayered association with 100% metaphor when there are literal words, not play on words, linking a site or object to a definition.
Many far reaching associations inhabited my posts awhile back, so many of you mightve failed to notice my own progression, so do try to forget what Ive said before so please give my new stuff a fresh look.
this might not be the best example, but take a look at V10’s first line, “In the shadow”, while that can be attributed to anything at all in our Solar system…or to do with some specific “grey giant”, I’ve found a famously known Native Tribes poet in Canada whom wrote a poem titled “In the Shadows”. Perhaps thats just a coincidental coonection, but if you factor in a lot of interesting landmarks that may work with the verse and image including an early 80s collection of art and reference to Elek Imredy at the Maritime museum with the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture sitting on its front lawn facing the park which contains just one grave memorial to that “In the Shadows” poet…oh this sentence is wonky…anyway Imredy sculpted the Girl in Wetsuit (modeled much like Mermaid of Copenhagen – Dutch Themed puzzle hint) which sits on a little isle dedicated by Douglas Brown. Ive never heard of these people before, but they have their place in that section of Canadas landscape. The miature train next to giant checkerboards really connects this puzzle for me especially with the LotJ describing shining and shifting could be relevant to the moving pieces of checkers and a successful capture, shinning as a successor winning move as pieces shift and jump over the board. The unique looking legeater lamp literally connects with the train makers home in Montreal but is also a strong symbol of a creature (predator) eating another creature (prey/game), quite like a checkerpiece taking an opponent piece out of the game.

I think any literary connections like that are likely to be Easter Eggs, and not necessary to dig up the casque. 30 years later they may play a role, however. I don’t throw out anything you say at all, but I ask that in the middle of a discussion that you not muddy the issue. I’m not talking about red herrings in the same way you are, and would like some feedback on just the theories that I’m presenting.
What happens (and has already happened) is that your unrelated post has now muddied what I was talking about into thinking about statues in Washington, when that isn’t what I meant at all. I mean only within the context of the same city.
I think the Gargoyle in 12 is another good example: You
immediately
think Chrysler building, but the first obvious thought is probably not it. If it was that easy why haven’t we found enough images nearby to dig it up? I think some of the clues were chosen because they look similar enough to other things, and they will only be confirmed right by the nearby location of OTHER clues or a direct and obvious application to the verse.
Another example is the turrets in Image 11 – they immediately make everyone think Trinity Church by the BPL (T&X as well) and I believe that’s a “red herring” (I may just be using the wrong term) as they immediately make you jump to an obvious conclusion (in the right city, even!) but it’s not the right one.

I know very well what a red herring is based on my experience from the Silver Key. The author of the hunt confirmed the site of Eugene, Oregon and I followed clues to Mt. Pisgah Arboretum. I never found the key and when the hunts 2yr experiation happened we learned that the key was hidden at Mt. Pisgah in North Carolina.
Dude. Thats a red herring.
You wanna use red herring to talk about double meanings, thats a little cloudy to me.

If you want to argue over the colloquial definition of “red herring” i’m happy to do it over PM but I think my idea has been made extremely clear. Please focus on the ideas presented and not whether or not my use of red herring is personally insulting because
you know what red herrings are
and I don’t.
It’s a term, it may have been misused. I know it’s the internet but please let it go, sub in whatever term you want. “Intentionally misleading clues that point you in an obvious but incorrect location” seems to fit “red herring” for me. I’m sorry you got duped by that crappy hunt.
edit: “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.”
Seriously please I can’t do pedantic grammar nitpicking on the internet anymore.

Red herring: st. louid is correct (the context: a response from Preiss about johann being wrong about a spot in the city of St. Louis)
So St. Louis is correct, but in what way? Are we talking about a sovereign, a street, a cemetery in NO, or the city of St. Louis?
Im not into this to insult or argue. We have both clarified our use of the term and the forum members can readily apply the apropriate meaning to each of our posts. Im not attempting to redefine your words as they are applied to your ideas. We are discussing different locations, points of view, methodology, etc. I dont think anything Ive said will confuse anyone as to what you are saying, apologies if that is the case.
I’m mostly focused on tjgrey’s idea at the moment.

Ah! I got it now…yeah, I just think of a red herring as being something intentionally misleading.
I personally don’t think that there are mis-leading clues, nor double clues. Maybe some of the Lincoln references and the Washington references. (There seems to be a lot of obelisks that come up in random parks that are explored…)
I think the fine folks that established the majority of the theories about 10 years ago and did the groundwork were probably the closest in all of this. I think if some of the ones there weren’t found they were likely gone or destroyed, (speaking of Houston, SF, and possibly Milwaukee). That’s my view on it all.
Others, like Roanoke, and FOY seem to be there…just maybe missed? Or not at the
exact
spot but in the right park…

FWIW I don’t think it’s in FOY park. I think that is exactly the type of “red herring” I’m talking about – but at the end of the day it’s all going to come down to our personal feelings about the puzzles.
I think that the CLOSE but not EXACT match of the Conquistador/Flag is telling, but I’m really just falling back on my feelings about how they work. The fact that it’s not a picture Preiss took with a Polaroid but instead “similar to” or “inspired by” leads me to think it’s meant to throw us off the trail. But as I said, with BP dead we’ll never know for sure until we solve them all and take a step back.
My crazy theory that I’m working out would back up my “It’s not in FOY” park but that’s useless, you can’t confirm your own stuff like that

Xieish

FWIW I don’t think it’s in FOY park. I think that is exactly the type of “red herring” I’m talking about – but at the end of the day it’s all going to come down to our personal feelings about the puzzles.
I think that the CLOSE but not EXACT match of the Conquistador/Flag is telling, but I’m really just falling back on my feelings about how they work. The fact that it’s not a picture Preiss took with a Polaroid but instead “similar to” or “inspired by” leads me to think it’s meant to throw us off the trail. But as I said, with BP dead we’ll never know for sure until we solve them all and take a step back.
My crazy theory that I’m working out would back up my “It’s not in FOY” park but that’s useless, you can’t confirm your own stuff like that

I love the FOY theory…I think it’s just a matter of pinpointing…
Yeah, throw it out there to the sharks! If it stands up, it’s worth it! I’m working a few things I found in Chucktown, and I’ll post it when I put the pieces together and it makes sense in something readable…I want to see what some people think.

erexere

I’m still trying to decipher JJPs claim that there was something special about the helmet.  If someone has something solid to offer, please say something.

it is an exact physical match for one of the fountain basins in the greek cultural gardens.

erexere

Has anyone noticed that page 199 has a sketch of a train with the number ’82’ on it’s nose?  Echoes the Verse 1 lines “take your task / to the nine eight two” doesn’t it?

Yeah, I haven’t completely abandoned the idea of clues in those pics, though it seems unlikely.

Getting close to a very comfortable sense for how these puzzles work:
1. Let the Litany of the Jewels guide you in a helpful direction when considering an image and verse pair.
2. Consider the broadest or biggest clues that bring you to a city of consideration.
3. Image: Look for cultural theme in the image.  Take notice of the “action”.  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn’t being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween.  The image 4 centaur is on top of the wall-arch. The visual pieces are being organized for a thematic purpose.
4. Verse: the first line is immensely helpful in two ways, a general application comes first, but later, once the last line is resolved, the first line serves to confirm our conclusions.  Its fascinating and fun.  Elegant.
5. Verse: work from general to specific.  There will be some points that are well described for the purpose of getting the searcher in an approximate position.  The last few lines seem like inocuous fluff, really they are cryptic yet extremely specific.  There is no guessing.  Preiss chooses very precise words.

Wow. $2499.99 to be exact. Thats a crazy price. I picked up my copy about a year ago for next to nothing.
I envision a different conversation between Preiss and Palencar.
JJP: why must I draw Roanoke if you didnt bury a casque there?
BP: shut up and draw what I tell you.
JJP: yes, master
…

Why discuss JJPs artistry to that degree when its been largely established that he didnt design the puzzles or write the verses? The point of discussion that I introduced was about the way in which Preiss uses words. In one case, the Verbs book, he is being straight forward, and in the Secret he has a different goal.
There are some uncanny similarities. Whether that has anything valuable to offer is up for debate, but simply saying its unlikely that we would discover anything helpful isnt much of an argument. Talking about JJPs artistry in the same way doesnt support the argument, though it does bring attention to the obvious generalities.
As for the specifics, if you’ve looked at the Verbs book, you’ll see how it maps 12 verbs to the 12 month calendar and it illustrates various creatures in settings focused on each. A thirteenth verb is added, Im not sure why, but it reminds me of the 13 fair folk tribes story. At the end of the Verbs book is a list of all the creatures that can be spotted in each particular verb setting. Its fun to see how similar the structure is for this other 1982 Preiss publication. As for its usefulness, Im not inclined to say its useless to our considerations. You can judge for yourself after having a closer look or without looking at it at all, you can act like you have a solid argument for a point thats not actually being presented.
When I took a closer look at the April month sertting for the verb “look”, I liked how Preiss had the artist draw two cases for the words “look out” and “look out!”. In the first case he presents a panther sitting inside a hut, looking out a window. In the second case he has a porcupine trying to avoid a charging elephant.
In the May setting for the verb “ride” he portrays several modes of transportation and includes an old locomotive with its whistle blowing. A hippo dressed as a traffic cop is also blowing a whistle. Its hard to not connect these details with verse 1 in the Secret where “the number nine eight two” or “a whistle blows”, but I think these coincidences dont really bear any fruit.

Theres no schizophrenia here. Just some leisurely attention to the subject material. Some insomnia. Some beer. Some trolling whenever the urge to be stupid as a rock dislodges a person who might otherwise be helpful to the cause.
The point is the fact that the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs represents a case where Preiss supplied the words and hired an artist to represent each verb in its various forms. Its an effort to be clear as possible in contrast to the Secret where he has written words, hired an artist, but makes the effort to be as tricky as possible. Its really cool to see his mastery over words play out in different ways.

It’s possible, albeit unlikely, that we could learn something from seeing Preiss’ other works. Think about looking at JJP’s artwork outside of The Secret — once you’ve seen a bunch of it, you learn what aspects might be stylistic idiosyncrasies and probably have nothing to do with The Secret. For instance, if many of his works had glowing blue outlines, or colorful panels that look like color-blindness tests, those features in his paintings probably have no significance for The Secret and can be discounted.
In theory the same could be done for Preiss.

On one hand, I’m making a point of admiration for Preiss’ mastery of words and how he achieves a very plain goal with absolutely nothing left up to confusion. Kids get a primer of common verbs and that’s it. On the other hand, I’m not as sure as you that it’s “unlikely” we could learn something to help us in the Secret, which I believe is largely a test of our judgement of words.
I spent a great deal of time looking at this puzzle in an exaggerated way. More and more I came to realize there’s a difference between far afield ideas which are based on exaggerations in word meaning and far afield ideas that are based on actual word meanings. The simple fact: some definitions are just less common or informal.
I’m sure there’s many words in the verses that are meant to be understood in their plainest sense, but I strongly believe it takes only a few well-chosen words and cases of subtle meaning to create these puzzles that we’re still struggling to understand. I now believe there’s no exaggeration or stretch of the imagination to aid us in solving these puzzles. A look at Preiss’ simple primer on verbs has me convinced that he knows how to choose exactly the right words to meet his purpose. Having learned that, I think it’s likely that one reason we’re not making progress is that we have failed to check our natural inclination to see only the most common word meanings.