MERLIN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Times_Come_Again_No_More ?
Foster = Foster Farms Chicken?

Good song that describes welfare system.
Oh damn, Welfare Island again!

Of the things I bring to the forum, the people choose my half-assed Oliver St idea to be the one they run with.
Dickens seems really random. But he’s also classic at this point. So maybe as random as a Thucydides reference in Boston? I mean, natives still speak of him because he’s one of the most well known and read authors in the world.
Crap. I’m coming around to this idea a little.

NYC. Agree to disagree on this one.
. For fun though, there are several websites that offer word association. Type in “Oliver” for example, you might be surprised what associations are at the top of the list. Remember Preiss started with ‘something’ and worked his way towards the ‘hard word’ clue we are given.
Just curious from the forum. Has this area (South Shore Park at Oliver Street) been photographed or explored extensively? Anyone familiar with that area or live close by? The wooded area on the east side of the v would be interesting to look at.
Phrabbot. I think it could be a major breakthrough. Like I said. This clue just may be a little dated, hence our reason for being hesitant. Ask someone in there 50-60s what comes to mind when they hear the word Oliver. Let me put it this way, if you were going to create a clue about Oliver St. What would be the first thing that comes to mind? How would you create it?

davinci4

Just curious from the forum. Has this area (South Shore Park at Oliver Street) been photographed or explored extensively? Anyone familiar with that area or live close by? The wooded area on the east side of the v would be interesting to look at.

As mentioned before, I have. The Oliver St idea is from a long time ago for me. I abandoned it and didn’t present it then because the area didn’t seem to work. Everything park related is West of Oliver St. Also that V is huge. Where’s the middle? Digging in a wooded area is going to be near impossible based on how many tree roots are in some seemingly open areas.
I would imagine with so many theories in that area it’s been walked a fair amount by others as well.
You should def nip down there and walk shore park and promenade, though. Interesting area. And you’ll definitely get a much better feel for what makes the most sense down there as opposed to virtual walk throughs.

The middle is a bit subjective. Hoping that when you walk from the middle East , 22 steps later you come to something that is only obvious to us. Maybe you reach the iron fence on Shore Road. Not sure. Would be nice to have some boots on the ground here. This part of the park appears relatively hidden and undisturbed.

I was thinking about something from a previous post (I apologize, I forgot whom). They pointed out the lack of proper street names (mostly numbered) that line South Shore Park. I thought this fact might be something Preiss could have used to point to a specific cask location. Also consider the lack of monuments and plaques in South Shore Park. It would be hard to provide a precise location without offering us something unique.
The list of streets with non-numbers:
-Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway
-Mackay
-Oliver
-Ridge
Interestingly, a parking lot (“cars abound”) starts at Oliver at this point in the park.
With regards to Dickens, I encourage people to look back in the forum. This is not a new idea and was theorized well before the Japanese hints came out. The Japanese hint may have further solidified it for some
.
Prhabbot thank you for that hint. ..I do think the v is on a large scale given we are told to walk to the middle of one branch

idyl

Maybe I missed this, but which Hamilton signs were in Owl’s Head and the north end of Shore Park?

The theory about that is that since the park is right on the Belt parkway, you can see the exit signs on the pkway. One of which is Ft. Hamilton exit. Other then that, there should be no signs near Owl’s head or North parts of the park about Hamilton that I can remember.

davinci4

‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria:
-v needs to run in N-S direction.
-adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch
-can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east
-dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain.

I would 100% agree with everything you said here.

davinci4

I was thinking about something from a previous post (I apologize, I forgot whom). They pointed out the lack of proper street names (mostly numbered) that line South Shore Park. I thought this fact might be something Preiss could have used to point to a specific cask location. Also consider the lack of monuments and plaques in South Shore Park. It would be hard to provide a precise location without offering us something unique.
The list of streets with non-numbers:
-Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway
-Mackay
-Oliver
-Ridge
Interestingly, a parking lot (“cars abound”) starts at Oliver at this point in the park.
With regards to Dickens, I encourage people to look back in the forum. This is not a new idea and was theorized well before the Japanese hints came out. The Japanese hint may have further solidified it for some
.
Prhabbot thank you for that hint. ..I do think the v is on a large scale given we are told to walk to the middle of one branch

I bet the other time Dickens was mentioned was in the Lower Manhattan/Battery park theories. Even though, I still have the Dickens theory, with a passion. It is creative to use Oliver st. to support it, but I still would have no clue as to why the natives would still speak about Dickens, especially when thinking about the word still, as if they have always spoke about him. I totally understand your logic behind it but it makes zero sense to me. We are just going to have to agree to disagree with that one.
Also, I employ anyone and everyone to check the translation for themselves on the Japanese clues. I do think that a few words get lost in translation. Nothing crucial but simple things. For example, when I ran it thorough 3 different translation programs, 2 of them said, “he is a chicken.” I am just assuming that since Japanese is so different from English that some words can be interpreted different ways when trying to make a accurate translation.
I ran with the “he is a chicken” and looked up famous names of chicken characters around that time, such as Cornelius (the Kellogs mascot) or foghorn leghorn, something in that realm. When doing that and cross referencing Brooklyn, I came up with Kennedy Chicken. Seems to make more sense that the Natives would still be talking about JFK after his assassination, especially since many places around adopted his name to honor him. I especially like the fact that the sign near the Hamilton sign says Kennedy airport rather then JFK.
Plus, let me just throw this out there. ” The natives still speak of him of hard word in 3 vols.” Is it that the natives still speak of “him of hard word in 3 vols” or they still speak of him in 3 vols.? Is the person’s description him of hard word in 3 vols. or are the natives still speaking about him in 3 vols.?

davinci4

‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria:
-v needs to run in N-S direction.
-adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch
-can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east
-dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain.
I know the area in front of the HS has been renovated but doesn’t rule it out. And there definitely other v’s in the area which could also fit. Feel like there could be another clue here that would eliminate ambiguity, hence my excitement of the possibility of “85 st.” being hidden in the painting.

Lets say between the high school and Owl’s head park, there has to only be about 10 V shaped paths.
And I know someone before was commenting about the shape of the dress being Manhattan (which would be a horrible drawing of Manhattan). A portion of the bottom of her dress matches very well to the shape of shore park from Owl’s head to about 74th or so.

That’s good. That’s really good. Actually much better fit than lower Manhattan, especially if you use Shore Road and bay ridge parkway as your verticles. Nice observation!…if you haven’t yet, take a look at the aerial imagery website provided by Kang. The v’s were far more defined back then.

davinci4

‘The v is the key.’ I propose the following criteria:
-v needs to run in N-S direction.
-adjacent dig spot approximately 50 feet away from middle of one branch
-can walk 22 steps from either branch as long as one is walking east
-dig spot should ‘say something’. Vague I know. But feel like the spot should be at a wall or gate or be designated by difference in terrain.

So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more?
And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots?
V has to be a path?
I personally don’t love these constraints.

davinci4

That’s good. That’s really good. Actually much better fit than lower Manhattan, especially if you use Shore Road and bay ridge parkway as your verticles. Nice observation!…if you haven’t yet, take a look at the aerial imagery website provided by Kang. The v’s were far more defined back then.

So lets say this is all true and spot on, now what? What will tie everything to one spot? Like you said, something like a gate, or plaque or something?
Also, have you noticed how many streets and pathways have a distinct arches?!

phrabbott

So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more?
And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots?
V has to be a path?
I personally don’t love these constraints.

More of just seed balling a theory about a v path along these paths. Not married to it at all. Even if the verse is 100% correct, as we have it, we still don’t have a spot.

phrabbott

So you don’t think that upon finding Him of Hard word you take 22 east steps or more?
And then from the middle of one branch of the v (that you have now reached) you look down at simple roots?
V has to be a path?
I personally don’t love these constraints.

I was just thinking about that. I agree. The v is likely a path (worth discussing though). The positioning of the line of “him of hard words” between ‘the sign nearby’ and the ‘v’ makes me think this clue is very site specific and will eliminate any ambiguity about which v we should be standing at (Preiss must have taken into account the fact that the v would be ambiguous). The Hamilton sign helps but we have mentioned at least two Hamilton signs in Owls Head/north end of Shore Park. That line (hard words) could be the last piece of the puzzle. What was he thinking when he wrote it? There has to be a ground marker we are missing.
Any other thoughts on what a ‘v’ could be? The fact you to start at the middle of one branch, makes me think of something large in scale (like path) versus say a Roman numeral V on a monument.

NYCNative

…A portion of the bottom of her dress matches very well to the shape of shore park from Owl’s head to about 74th or so.

Props to NYCNative for this one. I hadn’t heard of this match before he proposed it. Here’s a pic for those who like a visual.
Second, I know some disagree, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that once something in the image is “matched” to something – that’s it – cross it off the list because it can be nothing else. I think JJP was even more brilliant than that. Others disagree and that is fine – but they may miss out on clue opportunities in the process. (Just my opinion).
The above match seems to deviate from Shore Road at about 74th. Why? Perhaps there is a reason.
Perhaps it is so the bottom of the dress better ALSO matches Staten Island (upside down). A well worn idea – but one that I think was already a better match than the bottom of Manhattan. And if NYCNative is correct (and I think he is) – that very rounded edge and line angle is not quite right for Staten Island because JJP snuck in the Owl’s Head Park roundness/Shore Road match.
Just one thought. And just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Kang

Props to NYCNative for this one. I hadn’t heard of this match before he proposed it. Here’s a pic for those who like a visual.
Second, I know some disagree, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that once something in the image is “matched” to something – that’s it – cross it off the list because it can be nothing else. I think JJP was even more brilliant than that. Others disagree and that is fine – but they may miss out on clue opportunities in the process. (Just my opinion).
The above match seems to deviate from Shore Road at about 74th. Why? Perhaps there is a reason.
Perhaps it is so the bottom of the dress better ALSO matches Staten Island (upside down). A well worn idea – but one that I think was already a better match than the bottom of Manhattan. And if NYCNative is correct (and I think he is) – that very rounded edge and line angle is not quite right for Staten Island because JJP snuck in the Owl’s Head Park roundness/Shore Road match.
Just one thought. And just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Thank you sir. I am internet challenged when it comes to posting pics correctly

Here’s my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iwjkf088ccpe … 0.jpg?dl=0
The reason I had him do it, and that I overlayed it on the text, was I was never sure what was the translator’s ideas, what was the Japanese editors ideas, and what Preiss actually said. So this is word for word. Seems the editor has a lot of opinions that may be leading.
Edit for context: My friend has lived in NYC since going to college at NYU, so his English is equal to his Japanese and if you spoke with him you wouldn’t even know he’s from Japan. I think this is the most natural translation I’ve found. Interestingly, he also mentioned that the hints are written a little weird. (which I think I’ve heard from others?)

phrabbott

Here’s my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iwjkf088ccpe … 0.jpg?dl=0
The reason I had him do it, and that I overlayed it on the text, was I was never sure what was the translator’s ideas, what was the Japanese editors ideas, and what Preiss actually said. So this is word for word. Seems the editor has a lot of opinions in my mind that may be leading.

That is awesome Phil, Thanks!
I will look it over now!…
Well that cleared up somethings for me.
Whirring sound, seems easy enough.
So him of hard word can very well be an author but I suppose it is just implied, not for sure?
And yeah, as much as I hate Gershwin, there isn’t many other choices. The only two songs that have been thought of with rhapsody in it would be Rhapsody in blue and Bohemian rhapsody.

Thanks for sharing that. It’s such an odd hint. Not sure how to interpret it. Feel like it should make sense at dig spot (hence
my preference for Olivér st.)
Here are some of the possibilities for this line:
-Kennedy Chicken
-Charles Dickens
-also have heard the dictionary as a possibility (Webster’s Dictionary)
Any others?
Other question for group as well. I have never been to South Shore Park. Is it really that scarce when it comes to plaques, monuments, landmarks? Not much on Google.

No prob. I had posted it on the NYC facebook for fear of people here getting upset at reposts haha.
Him of Hard word. The problem is, in my mind, that they’re all just candidates and never anything better. That’s why I think it’s going to be purely contextual in the area and that when you see the one that makes sense in context of the other clues, you’ll be like ‘oh, I guess that’s him.’
That’s why NYCNative’s is so far the best I’ve seen other than RicHard Cochlea at Old Glory. Richard really seems like an obscure clue to me though, and I’m not sure where to take it from there. My idea on the chicken clue there is that these clues were a phone conversation and can’t be that deep of clues, so when the editor asked BP about this, BP scrambled to think of a CH word because Hard is masked by a CH sound in Richard. That’s really all I’ve got and it’s totally contradictory to my “hard can’t be the word hard” spoutings.

NYCNative

And yeah, as much as I hate Gershwin, there isn’t many other choices. The only two songs that have been thought of with rhapsody in it would be Rhapsody in blue and Bohemian rhapsody.

Now you understand why I won’t let up on that clue haha.
The whirring, while I wholeheartedly believe bikes, does seem very tainted by Japanese editor’s opinions.

phrabbott

Now you understand why I won’t let up on that clue haha.
The whirring, while I wholeheartedly believe bikes, does seem very tainted by Japanese editor’s opinions.

How so?
on land and man powered.

Okay. Let me throw one more v out there.
The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park.
This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical.
Anyone explored here before?
My best guess at a complete solution so far:
In the shadow
Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan)
Find the arm that (pick a parkway)
Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE that extend over narrows)
In summer
You’ll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore)
Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road)
Although the sign
Nearby
Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton Sign)
The natives still speak
Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Oliver Street, Charles Dickens = Oliver! Or Oliver Twist)
Take twice as many east steps as the hour
Or more (take 22 steps east)
From the middle of one branch
Of the v (v at Oliver street in the park)
Look down
And see simple roots (?grass)
In rhapsodic man’s soil (general Brooklyn reference)
Or gaze north
Toward the isle of B. (SOL)

phrabbott

Here’s my verse 10 translation done by my bonified, born and bred Japanese friend who knows nothing about this hunt:

This is great. Did your friend translate the other hints?

phrabbott

No prob. I had posted it on the NYC facebook for fear of people here getting upset at reposts haha.
Him of Hard word. The problem is, in my mind, that they’re all just candidates and never anything better. That’s why I think it’s going to be purely contextual in the area and that when you see the one that makes sense in context of the other clues, you’ll be like ‘oh, I guess that’s him.’
That’s why NYCNative’s is so far the best I’ve seen other than RicHard Cochlea at Old Glory. Richard really seems like an obscure clue to me though, and I’m not sure where to take it from there. My idea on the chicken clue there is that these clues were a phone conversation and can’t be that deep of clues, so when the editor asked BP about this, BP scrambled to think of a CH word because Hard is masked by a CH sound in Richard. That’s really all I’ve got and it’s totally contradictory to my “hard can’t be the word hard” spoutings.

Can you elaborate on the RicHard Cochlea idea? The Cochlea has three chambers. Hmm.

davinci4

Can you elaborate on the RicHard Cochlea idea? The Cochlea has three chambers. Hmm.

Oof. I messed up his last name. Cocheo.
He’s with two other plaques, so those are the three vols in this idea.
I’m on my phone. Sorry!

davinci4

Okay. Let me throw one more v out there.
The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park.
This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical.
Anyone explored here before?
My best guess at a complete solution so far:
In the shadow
Of the grey giant (at border of Manhattan)
Find the arm that (pick a parkway)
Extends over the slender path (278/Belt/BQE that extend over narrows)
In summer
You’ll often hear a whirring sound (ferries in NY Bay or bike path along Belt I.e. stay by the shore)
Cars abound (South Shore Park, bounded by Belt and Shore Road)
Although the sign
Nearby
Speaks of Indies native (Fort Hamilton Sign)
The natives still speak
Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. (Oliver Street, Charles Dickens = Oliver! Or Oliver Twist)
Take twice as many east steps as the hour
Or more (take 22 steps east)
From the middle of one branch
Of the v (v at Oliver street in the park)
Look down
And see simple roots (?grass)
In rhapsodic man’s soil (general Brooklyn reference)
Or gaze north
Toward the isle of B. (SOL)

Everything but that god damn Dickens BS!!!!!!

LOL. ..NYC, Why don’t you like the Dickens reference? Hard Times was written in Household Words in three volumes. Even if you don’t like the Japanese hint. Plus Preiss pays homage to the great authors of American classical literature throughout the Secret (Twain, Melville, Longfellow, RLS). An odd reference to Dickens I agree, but one I could see him using.
Have you ever visited this spot before? By Aerial imagery, it appears unchanged over last 40 years.

davinci4

LOL. ..NYC, Why don’t you like the Dickens reference? Hard Times was written in Household Words in three volumes. Even if you don’t like the Japanese hint. Plus Preiss pays homage to the great authors of American classical literature throughout the Secret (Twain, Melville, Longfellow, RLS). An odd reference to Dickens I agree, but one I could see him using.
Have you ever visited this spot before? By Aerial imagery, it appears unchanged over last 40 years.

The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn’t they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens?

davinci4

The Hamilton sign helps but we have mentioned at least two Hamilton signs in Owls Head/north end of Shore Park.

Maybe I missed this, but which Hamilton signs were in Owl’s Head and the north end of Shore Park?

Maybe by chicken he means coward or yellow – something to that effect – he said play with words – not rhyme.

NYCNative

The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn’t they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens?

I agree with this. I’ve never even come close to thinking that “Dickens” was part of this solution. And I’m honestly kind of surprised so many people jumped onto that bandwagon since, as you said, it’s practically the “laziest solution.” Sure, it
might
be correct, but I’d wager against that.

davinci4

Okay. Let me throw one more v out there.
The v at the northern aspect of Vinland playground in South Shore Park.
This v starts at Oliver street. Charles Dickens = Oliver Twist? ..Oliver! was actually the name of the broadway musical.
Anyone explored here before?

I have a little bit. When I first thought of the Oliver/Dickens idea and saw the V nearby haha. Inconclusive… That would be one I would just blindly probe (if I blindly probed.)
I actually commend you for running with Oliver idea. I thought for a second that there might be something there, but I stand by the fact that Hard word is not going to actually be the word “Hard.” Probe me wrong. Pun intended.
Re: V question. If the V is the end of the 22 steps as I implied and not the beginning, it could be anything. Branch could imply tree. Could end near a path. Could be a structure or shorthand for something. Could be a metal fence support

NYCNative

The thing about the Dickens reference is that it was created because the Japanese clue said it was word play with the word chicken. The laziest solution was to rhyme chicken with Dickens. I am sure we can connect a lot of literary people with the 3 vols. insert, but two questions: One. If we are going by those Japanese clues, didn’t they also say that this person was NOT a writer? Two. Why would any natives, none alone Brooklyn natives, still be talking about Dickens?

Siskel, 2004

other tidbits that drew us to this area included the reference to the “natives still speak of him of Hard word in three vols.” which thus far Egbert believes might refer to Charles Dickens (author of Hard Times which, when written, was divided into three novellas)

Not so, the Dickens was a contender for “Him of hard word / 3 vols” well before the Japanese hints were released
http://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&p=15456&hilit=dickens#p15456

GoldenMartyr

This is great. Did your friend translate the other hints?

As he’s not into the hunt, I just did the one most pertinent to me as to not ask to much of him. Due to popular demand I’ll get some beers and we’ll do a full translating sess. I do think it came out very well and reads much more naturally. (sorry verse 12 I hope to be drunk by then)

phrabbott

As he’s not into the hunt, I just did the one most pertinent to me as to not ask to much of him. Due to popular demand I’ll get some beers and we’ll do a full translating sess. I do think it came out very well and reads much more naturally. (sorry verse 12 I hope to be drunk by then)

Completely understood. Appreciate it and would be happy to fund beer.

dosethree

Not so, the Dickens was a contender for “Him of hard word / 3 vols” well before the Japanese hints were released
http://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&p=15456&hilit=dickens#p15456

Noted.
I still do not like the theory and I think the Oliver link is thin still. Why would the natives still speak of him?
I think when they first thought of Dickens it was due to something in downtown Manhattan and even that was pretty lose.

GoldenMartyr

Completely understood. Appreciate it and would be happy to fund beer.

As a professional beer drinker, that will be unnecessary haha

Speaking of Japanese translation. Let me throw this out to the group (NYC bare with me):
If there was a street named “Christmas Carol Drive”’ next to South Shore Park would you think about the Dickens reference differently. I only ask because I am not sure if its “hard word” or “Oliver” part that people don’t like. With regard to hard word, even if you don’t like “chicken” clue, the translation does say you are looking for the name of an author (?agree). With regards to “Oliver” Preiss has put ‘two step riddles’ in other puzzles (like “step on copper”, copper -> penny-> Lincoln Memorial vs saying something one-step like ‘where the 16th sits’). Thoughts?
Dosethree that’s an excellent point.

NYCNative

Why would the natives still speak of him?

Perhaps because he trashed them in the article
The Noble Savage
.
The Noble Savage
was published in
Household Words
, the weekly magazine Dickens edited. The same weekly magazine where
Hard Times
was initially published in installments.

davinci4

Speaking of Japanese translation. Let me throw this out to the group (NYC bare with me):
If there was a street named “Christmas Carol Drive”’ next to South Shore Park would you think about the Dickens reference differently. I only ask because I am not sure if its “hard word” or “Oliver” part that people don’t like. With regard to hard word, even if you don’t like “chicken” clue, the translation does say you are looking for the name of an author (?agree). With regards to “Oliver” Preiss has put ‘two step riddles’ in other puzzles (like “step on copper”, copper -> penny-> Lincoln Memorial vs saying something one-step like ‘where the 16th sits’). Thoughts?
Dosethree that’s an excellent point.

It is both and the question of why the natives, any natives, would STILL be talking about him? Also, when the verse uses the word although, it seems to suggest it is someone opposite to indies native. But that might just be my interpretation of it.
And yes, if that street was named Christmas Carol drive I would be knee deep in Dickens (no homo).

Start with chicken – CHarles dICKENs – check
Hard – Hard Times – check
3 vols. – Sowing/Reaping/Garnering – check
word – Household Words – check
Natives – The Noble Savage – check
Come on, this has to be wrong!

GoldenMartyr

Perhaps because he trashed them in the article
The Noble Savage
.
The Noble Savage
was published in
Household Words
, the weekly magazine Dickens edited. The same weekly magazine where
Hard Times
was initially published in installments.

That is interesting!
But then that makes the natives into the native american population (and not even the original native tribes of NY). Still doesn’t make sense that native americans are still speaking of Dickens, who didn’t write the article, just edited.
Not trying to be harsh on this point, just pointing out that it seems off. I get you have to make connections from one thing to the other but this is a little much.
Agree to disagree on this one friends. I just don’t see it.

GoldenMartyr

Start with chicken – CHarles dICKENs – check
Hard – Hard Times – check
3 vols. – Sowing/Reaping/Garnering – check
word – Household Words – check
Natives – The Noble Savage – check
Come on, this has to be wrong!

Hey, if you are positive about it, go with it!
Don’t forget Oliver as well!!

I think ‘the natives still speak of him’ is (could) basically saying the people of this neighborhood in Brooklyn who live on Oliver St. Connotation is that they speak of him (really one of his famous works) because they live there. …,NYC interesting about “Christmas Carol Drive.” I completely understand your point “Christmas Carol” way more appealing than “Oliver.” Could this be a dated reference and we are not getting it because we are not living in 1982? Oliver! was a very popular broadway musical in the late 1960’s. Wikipedia actually references Oliver Twist as s reason this name rose in popularity (I think of the kid from the Brady Bunch). I could see Preiss standing at that spot and seeing “Oliver st.’ and using the name “Oliver” to invoke Charles Dickens in his clue. Its not as recognizable as “Christmas Carol” but maybe we are having difficulty given how ‘dated’ this clue might be.

davinci4

I think ‘the natives still speak of him’ is (could) basically saying the people of this neighborhood in Brooklyn who live on Oliver St. Connotation is that they speak of him (really one of his famous works) because they live there. …,NYC interesting about “Christmas Carol Drive.” I completely understand your point “Christmas Carol” way more appealing than “Oliver.” Could this be a dated reference and we are not getting it because we are not living in 1982? Oliver! was a very popular broadway musical in the late 1960’s. Wikipedia actually references Oliver Twist as s reason this name rose in popularity (I think of the kid from the Brady Bunch). I could see Preiss standing at that spot and seeing “Oliver st.’ and using the name “Oliver” to invoke Charles Dickens in his clue. Its not as recognizable as “Christmas Carol” but maybe we are having difficulty given how ‘dated’ this clue might be.

I appreciate you trying with Dickens but I am not going to be sold on it. i get the logic but I just do not agree.
And from the Japanese clues, I does not say he is for sure an author. It says it makes you think it is an author because of “volumes” .
Obviously, this verse is the bitch of the bunch. it can be interpreted many different ways and the clues are vague.
You can say that him of hard word in 3 vols. is a title of this person, or you can say the natives still speak of him in 3 vols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Time … in_No_More
?
Foster = Foster Farms Chicken?

Unknown

Unknown:
Recovery effort underway. Fingers crossed.

The best of luck to you as well.

Kang I do wish you best of luck in your recovery efforts as well..most of the fun in these hunts, I find, is the process of exploring new ideas and discussion that develops on the forum as a result. For example, I was convinced the cask was in JPJ for years until just a few weeks ago. The ideas presented here have generated new thoughts and taken me in different directions than I previously considered.
As I told NYC, this particular thread has been one of the most enjoyable (and insightful) threads I have been on in a long time. I do hope we can continue our discussion.

davinci4

Kang I do wish you best of luck in your recovery efforts as well..most of the fun in these hunts, I find, is the process of exploring new ideas and discussion that develops on the forum as a result. For example, I was convinced the cask was in JPJ for years until just a few weeks ago. The ideas presented here have generated new thoughts and taken me in different directions than I previously considered.
As I told NYC, this particular thread has been one of the most enjoyable (and insightful) threads I have been on in a long time. I do hope we can continue our discussion.

Thank you Ren, Davinci4 and NYCNative.

Good luck Kang and hurry before Dambala get there 1st!

Choice

Good luck Kang and hurry before Dambala get there 1st!

davinci4

:)..nice one.

I seriously can not find any information on that field. We know it is Frank Schnurr ballpark now. I have no idea when that name was placed there. What was it before!?

Not sure. …Kang, can you help us with this one?

I am just surprised we can’t seem to close the loop on this one. I look at the Hard Word clue like the “beating of the world.” It would have been very difficult to make the “Kenwood” connection without looking at the word “Kenwood” and working backwards. I am not a fan of reverse engineering but, in this case, I think it’s the approach one has to take, especially since we have narrowed down our search radius considerably. As I have mentioned before, I don’t think we are missing some mysterious plaque or inscription that will give us the answer. I think the answer is in front of us and we just haven’t seen it yet.

phrabbott

You seem to be going through the standard stages of considering South Brooklyn. Haha. Everything you’ve discussed is why many of us liked and then abandoned the Bay Ridge area at some time. But with this hunt, I’ve found I keep crawling back to locations I considered and abandoned years ago.
I know I believed the “major culture, major park required” theory for a while and have spoken to others that shared that sentiment as well, but I really don’t think we know enough to impose that kind of restriction. And having worked pretty much every major park in Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Manhattan extensively, I’ve found that all we can really do is follow the clues.
I’d take some time and scan the i12 and v10 threads for more info as this has been discussed extensively.

Yes. I have read through many. The problem with the other threads is that you often get incomplete solutions. A line or two that match up but not the complete walkthrough. The other problem is that the locations in NY are all over the place. It’s not that the ideas are bad, it’s just tough to focus on one location. One of the main reasons I like the way this thread is organized. ..phrabbot, do you have a v10 walkthrough (Any location-South Shore, Sunset, Prospect) you wouldn’t mind sharing?

In my findings so far, there’s only one location in Brooklyn at which all of my [brooklyn] theories have naturally ended that also makes sense thematically. I’ve personally gotten there two different ways using different interpretations of V10, 3 if I include my friend’s theory. As such, we’re currently in the “excavation” process, and would prefer to keep it to ourselves probably for a few more weeks. I have every intention of sharing these interpretations afterwords as I’m convinced that right or wrong “x” spot, one of them is the correct verse interpretation up to that spot.

I like that NYC is super active right now. I’m rooting for y’all.

phrabbott

I know I believed the “major culture, major park required” theory for a while… but I really don’t think we know enough to impose that kind of restriction… I’ve found that all we can really do is follow the clues.

For those who didn’t grow up around here or not old enough to remember, areas of NYC in the 70’s and early 80’s were far from the gentrified places full of high income hipsters they are now. The city had almost gone bankrupt, Ford told us to “Drop Dead”, everything including parks were dilapidated and crime and drugs were rampant. Many parks were places to be avoided especially at night. Many were dangerous to be in. Muggings were SOP, some parks were called “needle parks.” Not a place you’d want to be at night or rooting around the ground or digging. Simply No-Go places.
Remember at some level, Preiss is on the hook for searchers’ safety. What would Bantam say and what would book sales do if the local news story was “Local teen stabbed to death in _____ park looking for buried treasure.” Might sound far fetched now, but back then I assure you it was not.
I’m not bashing anyone’s park of choice. But take a look at some of the info below and ask yourself – “Though my neighborhood and park is a great place to be now – what was it probably like in 1982?”
(Take a look at the many pics in this article)
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-central-park-looked-like-in-the-1980s-2015-1
“Central Park was a dangerous place in the 1980s….The park was covered in garbage and graffiti, the meadows were barren dust-bowls, the playground equipment and benches were in decay, and the one-hundred-year-old infrastructure was crumbling.
In fact, many thought it was lawless ruin— and avoided it at all costs.
In efforts to make the park a safe place again, a Central Park Conservancy was formed. In 1980, the Conservancy began to enact a ‘master plan’ that would lead to the gradual reestablishment of the park…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_Park_(Brooklyn)
“…By the 1970s, Prospect Park was beset by crime;
a 1974 report found that 44 percent of city residents would warn people to stay away from the park under any circumstances.
[34] The mayoral administration of Ed Koch formed plans in 1980 to turn over the administration of the troubled Prospect Park Zoo to the Wildlife Conservation Society.[85] Over the next seven years, the city invested $17 million in cleaning up the park,[86] including $10 million in federal funds from a Community Development Block Grant.[87] Annual visitor numbers had nearly tripled to 5 million between 1980 and 1987…”
Now SW Brooklyn parks were not immune to this. I’m sure they were far different and scuzzier than they are now. But contrast the statements above with those of this 1982 NY Times article about the neighborhood we’re talking about.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q2c7-5jzvmTRaPAvGBwDTIRVvqzNgr-p/view?usp=sharing
“…Views of the bridge and the Narrows are a selling point for apartments and houses,
especially along Shore Road, known as the ”Gold Coast” of Brooklyn
…
Crime is not much talked about partly because it is not a major problem.
Sgt. John Granite of the 68th precinct said that burglaries and auto thefts were the area’s most serious crimes, but that
”from 65th Street to 101st Street is one of the safest areas in Brooklyn.”
Looking through that lens and given the choices Preiss had at the time, a smaller park in a safe, affluent neighborhood might have sounded like a very good idea. Perhaps the decision was less about what those string of parks “have” than what they “didn’t have”…

Thanks GMan!… I have never walked Shore Park but let me reverse it. If a cask were buried in that park, there seem like very few landmarks Preiss could have used to help us locate the ‘v’ (agree?). A few streets with proper names (Oliver, Bay Ridge), only a handful of monuments, Fort Hamilton HS. Any others?
Also if the cask is in Shore Park, I do feel that the walkthrough ‘ends’ with “him of hard word” analogous to walking ‘past his left shoulder’-you are at the cask site. The remaining part is ‘recovery instructions.’ And I thinks it’s cleverly constructed too. You really can’t get to the v (since as we have discussed, a v could mean several different things), unless you have solved every clue up until that point.
With that said, are we at a stalemate? If we can’t figure out a logical interpretation of “him of hard word” as it relates to this area, is there a discussion point beyond that?

Thanks for that post Kang. We sometimes forget these casks were buried almost 40 years ago. It seems a lot has changed at these parks. Shore Park looking more promising……

Speaking of 40 yrs ago; Soviet Union could be a connection to Union Square.
[ADDED] Also is that branch of the v or u?

Just doing some ground analysis. Question for the group. Could someone tell me (best guess) how far it is from the old v in Shore Park in front of Fort Hamilton HS to the flagpole in front of the school. Seems slightly absurd to cross Shore Road, but just considering different possibilities of v’s. …total side note, I always liked the Roman numeral clock at the school as a marker and wondered if the students could be ‘natives’ Preiss was referring to. Never could make a good connection though.

davinci4

I always liked the Roman numeral clock at the school as a marker and wondered if the students could be ‘natives’ Preiss was referring to. Never could make a good connection though.

If “Him” is Charles Dickens, the students are almost certainly the natives in my opinion.

phrabbott

If “Him” is Charles Dickens, the students are almost certainly the natives in my opinion.

How do we connect them (Charles Dickens and high school students)?

Students still speak of Charles Dickens. NYCNative always had the gripe that noone in NYC is speaking of Charles Dickens. That’s true. But in school, they certainly are.
“Although the sign nearby says [ft.] Hamilton [High school]”, the students still speak of [read] Charles Dickens.
Seems like a pretty reasonable logic puzzle. (if we’re assuming these two phrases need to make sense together.)

phrabbott

Students still speak of Charles Dickens. NYCNative always had the gripe that noone in NYC is speaking of Charles Dickens. That’s true. But in school, they certainly are.
“Although the sign nearby says [ft.] Hamilton [High school]”, the students still speak of [read] Charles Dickens.
Seems like a pretty reasonable logic puzzle. (if we’re assuming these two phrases need to make sense together.)

I hate to say it, but this makes sense.

Hmmmm. Yes. When you put it that way. That actually does make a lot of sense. Interesting. ..take a look at White Rabbits solution. It has great picks of this area. …very interesting. Wow. Three weeks of discussion. 276 replies. This could be our “ah ha” moment.

davinci4

Hmmmm. Yes. When you put it that way. That actually does make a lot of sense. Interesting. ..take a look at White Rabbits solution. It has great picks of this area. …very interesting. Wow. This could be our “ah ha” moment.

DAVINCI! Don’t make me search this forum for that post!!
I am way to lazy for that today!

NYCNative

DAVINCI! Don’t make me search this forum for that post!!
I am way to lazy for that today!

Haha…it’s in the Wiki. Scroll to bottom under “ Online Resources”

davinci4

This could be our “ah ha” moment.

Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction!

phrabbott

Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction!

I remember this solve. Well, lets hope it was not there.

phrabbott

Heh, Ya, you can ah ha right across the street to the V shaped path that got completely ripped apart in construction!

But the area in question was not disturbed (correct me if I am wrong). The v was redone, but the area east of the v and Shore Road where the trees are was left intact, no?

Was just thinking the same thing. haha. Race you? I think I have a geographical advantage. jk.
NYCNative, has someone dug there before or did they just consider it? I remember seeing it quite a bit in my early forrays in this hunt and I assumed everyone was in this area. My assumption would be that you line up with the clock or something. Maybe even one of those fence designs. Dare we go just to cross it off the list? Classic phrabbott systematic probe?

Honestly. I am way too far away but would so happy is someone found this. ..the clock tower, the “83 or 85 st.” are kind of all making sense now.

davinci4

Thanks GMan!… I have never walked Shore Park but let me reverse it. If a cask were buried in that park, there seem like very few landmarks Preiss could have used to help us locate the ‘v’ (agree?). A few streets with proper names (Oliver, Bay Ridge), only a handful of monuments, Fort Hamilton HS. Any others?
Also if the cask is in Shore Park, I do feel that the walkthrough ‘ends’ with “him of hard word” analogous to walking ‘past his left shoulder’-you are at the cask site. The remaining part is ‘recovery instructions.’ And I thinks it’s cleverly constructed too. You really can’t get to the v (since as we have discussed, a v could mean several different things), unless you have solved every clue up until that point.
With that said, are we at a stalemate? If we can’t figure out a logical interpretation of “him of hard word” as it relates to this area, is there a discussion point beyond that?

I guess it is all about how you look at it. If we think that we have the other lines in the verse correct, him of hard word would be nothing but more confirmation (which would still be great).
I have a feeling that when we actually know who him of hard word is, it is going to be a slap in the face. I showed the verse to a Professor friend of mine, who is a great problem solver, as well as another intellectual. Both said the same thing which I found fascinating. They said it sounds like a biblical figure (we can all understand why).

davinci4

Honestly. I am way too far away but would so happy is someone found this. ..the clock tower, the “83 or 85 st.” are kind of all making sense now.

So what was that part of the park named in 1980?

Hardword Johnson III Park

phrabbott

Hardword Johnson III Park

LMAO
That’s F ^

..nice one.

24″ ruler may be relevant to a 24 hour clock. 11 O’clock then would be 23, which is 11X2+1.

Here’s what I think is going on with the window panels:
I think the top row panels describe the bottom row panels. So from left to right:
Rectangle: 83/85 St.
Blue Domes Map: Description devided into two 1/2 panels. Bird wing on top half panel spells out “Ellis” (mirrored)
Bottom half, on bird’s body you can read “5 NY” perhaps the boroughs; 5 extends to bird’s feet, 3 ‘fingers’ point to Ellis, Liberty isle and the land mass south.
There may be other hidden writings there.
Womans head: All blue bubbles; perhaps represents SOL surrounded by water.
Clock: Large 9 in the panel shows the direction of travel and the number to double

Da fack!? She’s a cyborg?

No, Superman’s illegitimate sister.

phrabbott

Da fack!? She’s a cyborg?

LMAO!

Hi, I’m trying to do this on my phone so I apologize if the link doesn’t work. My NY (Brooklyn) theory (I apologize for calling it my solution, I meant theory, when I wrote it and I can’t change it at this time) is in The Greater the Difficultly piece. My strong visual for Old Glory is the entire window frame being equal to the city blocks next to Old Glory. My theory follows along simply until the ending. I think we’re to take 32 steps rather than 22. My NY theory follows with my Old Testament theory. Old Glory = the Glory of God. I understand if you find this far fetched, no worries. I don’t like that I think it’s near a tree either.
www.thesecretofthesecret.blog
Also, a link to my updated OT theory maybe on the top of this WordPress site, otherwise it can be found on the main FB site.

leighanny

Hi, I’m trying to do this on my phone so I apologize if the link doesn’t work. My NY (Brooklyn) theory (I apologize for calling it my solution, I meant theory, when I wrote it and I can’t change it at this time) is in The Greater the Difficultly piece. My strong visual for Old Glory is the entire window frame being equal to the city blocks next to Old Glory. My theory follows along simply until the ending. I think we’re to take 32 steps rather than 22. My NY theory follows with my Old Testament theory. Old Glory = the Glory of God. I understand if you find this far fetched, no worries. I don’t like that I think it’s near a tree either.
http://www.thesecretofthesecret.blog
Also, a link to my updated OT theory maybe on the top of this WordPress site, otherwise it can be found on the main FB site.

Thanks for sharing Leighanny!

Does anyone know the number of steps on each side of the Old Glory, the curved stairways?

leighanny

http://www.thesecretofthesecret.blog

That was a good read. The mention of the ruler was something that I hadn’t seen before, and works in concert with my own thoughts about this particular puzzle. Looking forward to my next dig attempt with that in mind.

Fair. Let me just say that given the fact they are blue, and in an image relying heavily on water, they likely are. Unless you don’t think the water below the floating lady is water? Is that a fair assumption?
It doesn’t seem likely to me. They are egg shaped, not tear shaped like a drop. The have more then one color, and also, the only other image in the book that has the same exact shape, is a woman balancing or pointing to it. I see no reason why it would just be a water drop.

Choice

P.S. I see you’re using Wiki image? Download images from 12treasures.com. George went true a lot of effort scanning those in hi-res. ]

davinci4

I am not from NY, just researching a little. Maybe New Yorkers could weigh in here. Is Brooklyn know for its Russian immigration? Reading about Brighton Beach. I think of the Italian immigration when it comes to NYC, but maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn. NY is such a melting pot, but is it fair to say Brooklyn is specifically known for its Russian immigrants (similar to the Irish in South Boston)?

idyl

Yes, Russian Jews make up a huge portion of Brooklyn’s southern sections, mostly based on immigration.

davinci4

Just wanted to hopefully close the loop. Kang poses a good question regarding St. Basils. It is, at first, seemingly redundant to create a Russian image in this painting. It’s very easy to pair each painting with a country of origin by using the jewels as outlined in the beginning of the book.
It seems by including such an iconic image of Russia in the painting, JJP/Preiss are basically saying, ‘we want you to take extra consideration about the country of origin in this particular puzzle- it will help you.’ ..….

Sorry for the delay. Just catching up on today’s posts.
Only for pics I post here. George’s files are fantastic but so hi-res I have to scale them down or what I post comes out obnoxiously large. Thanks again George!
First – davinci4 – You would be correct in your feeling that that the number of Russian immigrants to NYC are
way
down the list of immigrant groups for NYC. More well known groups and more numerous would include Italians, Irish, Puerto Rico and Chinese and others. And I’d like to push back a bit on Idyl’s assertion here. Here’s a primer on Brooklyn’s neighborhoods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brooklyn_neighborhoods
.
Russians or Russian Jews are not and have not been particularly noteworthy in Southwest Brooklyn, which is defined as Bay Ridge, Fort Hamilton, Bensonhurst, Bath Beach, New Utrecht, Borough Park, Dyker Heights, Sunset Park.
The vast majority of Jewish immigrants and/or Russian immigrants settled in Brighton Beach or Sheepshead Bay – both of which are South Brooklyn not Southwest Brooklyn – or in Manhattan’s Lower East Side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Americans_in_New_York_City
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_New_York
What group IS Southwest Brooklyn particularly known for (well, used to be known for)? Hint: Leif Erikson Park, Vinland Playgroud and Leif Erikson Parkway are not accidentally named. The whole area, including Bay Ridge used to have SO many Norwegians, it was called “Little Norway.” They still have a Norwegian Day Parade every May 17th.
https://www.norwegianamerican.com/heritage/norwegian-brooklyn/
https://forgotten-ny.com/2006/06/norse-code-in-bay-ridge/
I believe this is a very important statement.
Does Cleveland leap to mind when you think of Greek immigration? Or Persians in Houston? What if there’s something else going on here??
If Russians or Jewish immigrants are not particularly associated with Southwest Brooklyn, what gives? No Russian church very nearby. No Famous Russian residents. No Russian Park. No Russian statue or monument that’s catching anyone’s eye. Maybe what’s needed is something outside the box.
Davinci4 and Idyl, if you have not already, I urge you to give my post below a read and the document/analysis within. Particularly Parts 2 & 4.
It theorizes that for some of the puzzles, what if the immigration link (and related clues) were more about where the Fair Folk immigrated and the places they are drawn to – than about Man’s immigration.
http://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=480#p153116

Durian

So back to the albatross… does anyone have any idea why JJP seems to have rendered the woman’s eyes with the distinctive black markings of an albatross? Seems to me this is a fairly important clue. Especially when taken in context of the bird in the image. It appears to me to be part of a repeated clue, empahsized.

i have no idea how you made a connection between the bird in the image, an albatross, and the woman’s eyes.
The head is obviously something of a eagle, and we have a few famous ones in NY to choose from. the body, one would assume is closer to that of a seagull, which would make sense for New York harbor. More sense then a bird that doesn’t exist in this part of the country.
I am curious. Which came first in your thoughts. The woman has eyes like an albatross, so therefor the bird is one or vice versa?

Like the windows too.
https://tinyurl.com/y2vmr6yx

Glossiphoniidae

You’re right… it definitely can’t be that Ophelia… the BarryMORE on the “steps” store.Maybe it’s a painting of Ophelia we are looking for?

Choice

Greatness Kang! Pretty close.
https://tinyurl.com/y3mz4ooq
But at the risk of getting screamed at
If you stand a bit to the left then the “Manhattan” part of the gap would be even narrower.
Maybe JJP manipulated the image to insert a Manhattan like feature in there.
(takes cover)

davinci4

Kang. …St Basil drawn in perspective. No question. Nice work! …One panel we can cross off the list now.

Psst! He fellas. If you’re gonna post random pictures of statues of women in a long dress and pretend it’s a P12 image match, please be sure they are statues in SW Brooklyn, as this is what this thread is focused on. All other random non-image matches should go in the usual Image 12 thread. (Rim shot). Thanks for your understanding.
I think you may have be confused with someone else. Never any screaming from me. But I will take your question seriously and try to reason with you, if that’s OK.
The image you linked may be from an even better spot from my original. Well done. However, I don’t think it helps make your case. Maybe the opposite. It seems that the optimal spot may be between #1 & #2 below. As you can see, the negative space gap is widening, not getting smaller. It’s actually getting closer to JJP’s icon. Maybe you need to remove/clean up peek-a-boo back dome from #2. After that, it’s pretty spot on to the painting. No agenda needed.
And one last thing, peek-a-boo blue and white dome from #1- Seriously, that’s pretty spot on.
Now if you want to say that negative space is a match to Manhattan. You are welcome to. But you will never convince me no matter how many times you post it. To me – and I speak only for myself – it is just not a match. Full stop. In any way, shape or form. I could pull a sock out of a drawer and it’s got a 50/50 chance of being a better match. Sorry, but you’re not going to convince me on this one. But you are welcome to think what you like.
Well, not so fast. At best we may know the inspiration for the icon and can stop looking for a building. And that would be a win. Thing is – if it’s not an image match – what does it mean and why is it there? (Why do I feel like we went from frying pan to fire) – DOH!

Anyone wish to discuss the other panel in the painting? It’s not unique (a gray rectangle), but it’s significance is unclear. Accepted theory is that it one of the twin towers. Thoughts?
Also, following NYC’s lead in starting this thread, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion about South Brooklyn.

I’m talking about that lower Manhattan part. I don’t see any possible way you could recreate that part from real picture unless it was added to. Looks just like lower Manhattan.
Then it’s the matter of the two small “islands” to the left of “Manhattan”.
P.S. I see you’re using Wiki image? Download images from 12treasures.com
George went true a lot of effort scanning those in hi-res.

Hi Kang. That’s an excellent question. St Basil is representative of Russia. My thought ties back to the immigration theme that Preiss put in all the puzzles, a general reference to the country of origin as NYC has suggested. We see do see similar influences in other paintings (like columns in Cleveland) where there is a strong association to the country of origin. But you are correct, there could be more here, as the Cleveland columns also helped identify the cask location in addition to helping capture the Greek theme.

Kang

Psst! He fellas. If you’re gonna post random pictures of statues of women in a long dress and pretend it’s a P12 image match…

I honestly didn’t know that anyone thought it was a twin tower and I certainly don’t think that there is an accepted theory on that panel. Way too vague. The prevailing theories seem to be the Ellis Island dock or something visual and local to the site.
Why red outline? All I can come up with is that the dock is surrounded in brick.
You have to be careful with words like “accepted” or you’ll derail the thread as people will just argue over “who says it’s accepted!?” and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi.

I am not from NY, just researching a little. Maybe New Yorkers could weigh in here. Is Brooklyn know for its Russian immigration? Reading about Brighton Beach. I think of the Italian immigration when it comes to NYC, but maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn. NY is such a melting pot, but is it fair to say Brooklyn is specifically known for its Russian immigrants (similar to the Irish in South Boston)?

I’ve believed for a long time that the onion dome was an angled view of Saint Basil’s, and Kang’s images basically align exactly with what I’ve come up with. As to what it means, we’re yet to know, but I’m leaning toward the overall Russian-immigration-to-the-area theme for now.
I’m also of a mind that the negative space between the domes has nothing to do with the shape of Manhattan Island. I mean, I just don’t see it.
As for the pictures of statues of women in a long dresses that have been discussed, I’d be willing to entertain the theory of something to do with the I. Miller Building if anyone might provide something more than “the statue looks sort of like the painting.” Also, as mentioned, I’d be much more interested if it had anything to do with Southwest Brooklyn, since that’s where we’re focusing in this general discussion.

davinci4

maybe Russian theme was chosen due to the cask’s location in Brooklyn.

Glossiphoniidae

We need a stronger wall!

davinci4

Anyone wish to discuss the other panel in the painting? It’s not unique (a gray rectangle), but it’s significance is unclear. Accepted theory is that it one of the twin towers. Thoughts?
Also, following NYC’s lead in starting this thread, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion about South Brooklyn.

Just to clarify, I am all ears when it comes to hearing theories that are not about S. Brooklyn. But if I am going to give any consideration to them, I ask you do your own homework and research on them before bringing them here for people to tare apart. So far, people have chimed in with their own (non S. Brooklyn related) theories and clues but not one of them followed up with them or even had any relevance in proposing them in the first place.
Durian: My intentions is not to be mean to you, although my post might be harsh. I feel no matter what is said to you, you will still believe you are 100% right about your theory. My only suggestion to you is that you get a better understanding of the book and all the elements in it. Image 12 is supposed to be one, if not the hardest puzzle in the group, I seriously doubt that it can all be solved using one central figure and ignoring everything else ( or taking it with a grain of salt).
Yes, lets keep this conversation on S. Brooklyn or at very least about the verse or the image, which I think we need to cover better.

phrabbott

I honestly didn’t know that anyone thought it was a twin tower and I certainly don’t think that there is an accepted theory on that panel. Way too vague. The prevailing theories seem to be the Ellis Island dock or something visual and local to the site.
Why red outline? All I can come up with is that the dock is surrounded in brick.
You have to be careful with words like “accepted” or you’ll derail the thread as people will just argue over “who says it’s accepted!?” and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi.

LMAO.
I laugh because it is true!

Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice?
Hard to look at this puzzle with fresh eyes sometimes, but imagine it’s 1982 and you connect this panel to St Basil’s and then to South Brooklyn. Would be an extremely helpful clue when you consider all
the possibilities in NYC and greater NY area.

davinci4

Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice?

Yes, Russian Jews make up a huge portion of Brooklyn’s southern sections, mostly based on immigration.

Choice

We need a stronger wall!

is that a MAGA thing!…. >:D

MERLIN

is that a MAGA thing!…. >:D

Yes. Sorry. “Accepted” was probably not a good word to use there. I agree. …this is an odd panel. A rectangle is such a common shape.

Durian

… Peter … Hard …

Hide your stone-markers!

davinci4

Let me rephrase it. If we were to pick an immigration population for (South) Brooklyn (like Irish in South Boston), would Russian immigrants be a reasonable choice?
Hard to look at this puzzle with fresh eyes sometimes, but imagine it’s 1982 and you connect this panel to St Basil’s and then to South Brooklyn. Would be an extremely helpful clue when you consider all
the possibilities in NYC and greater NY area.

“The lone eagle” works with both Brooklyn and Roosevelt Island.
Spirit of St. Louis took off from Roosevelt Airfield on Long Island which Brooklyn technically a part of.
So question is Coney island or Jersey shore for summer vacation?

Unknown

Unknown:
and then 421 and the like will show up and list every rectangle east of the Mississippi.

Can’t speak for 421, but “the like” will just point out that 12 pages into this thread, the only thing that seems to be “accepted” is that the Statue of Liberty is represented in Image 12.
Carry on.

Euhirudinea

Can’t speak for 421, but “the like” will just point out that 12 pages into this thread, the only thing that seems to be “accepted” is that the Statue of Liberty is represented in Image 12.
Carry on.

Then you obviously did not read all 12 pages. Do you always ignore the details to make your weak point strong?
The point of the thread, just like any other, is not to unanimously agree and accept a theory or idea.
So the like, can kiss my ass! Especially those who criticize all day long and put zero effort into making their own theories and ideas.

Durian

Forgot to mention another key thing about St. Peter, in addition to being a “rock” in three of the Gospels…
We think of the word rhapsodic as meaning music. But it actually means elated. In fact, if you look it up in Merriam-Webster’s dictionary, the word is defined in terms of feeling elated. This is straight from the dictionary…the caps are not mine, but the dictionary entry’s: “extravagantly emotional : RAPTUROUS”
Now in addition to being the rock of the church, walking on water, and being the patron saint of Peter the Great (who named St. Petersburg after him), St. Peter famously holds the keys to heaven. Think of how busy Christians believe he will be at the Rapture! The word rapture itself means feeling elated. Rapture = Rhapsodic. Literally holding the keys to heaven makes St. Peter the rhapsodic man. And if the casque is buried at St. Peter’s church, it is literally in the Rapture man’s soil, on the grounds of a church that bears his name.

Hey Durian and welcome to the thread!
I really like your perspective and your first post was very clever. I will for sure do my homework on it.
I am just curious as to why you ignored the Japanese clues with your rhapsodic man interpretation? And surely you can be suggesting the verse is referencing the same person in two different ways.
Also, your site location is on private property
The three saints is very interesting! I will look up the spot later and get back to you.
Thanks for your perspective and insight and welcome to this “branch” of hell!

NYCNative

Especially those who criticize all day long and put zero effort into making their own theories and ideas.

Before I respond, I’d like to know if I’m lumped in here. Do you think I am one of these people?

I also believe that the onion dome building in the image represents Russia in general as opposed to a specific building in NYC. I was thinking that JJP may have used something local as inspiration for the building, so I did some research and found some info about St. Theodosius, a Russian Orthodox Church in Cleveland. It seems to match the onion dome building in Image 12 quite nicely.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286613472/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286449551/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48286559467/in/dateposted-public/

davinci4

Yes. Sorry. “Accepted” was probably not a good word to use there. I agree. …this is an odd panel. A rectangle is such a common shape.

https://live.staticflickr.com/30/607081 … 49c8_z.jpg

“hell is what you make it”
I like the twist on Brighton Beach/West new Brighton.
Are you supposed to dig on the church’s property?
The backside of that church is medieval cool.
https://tinyurl.com/y39dp55t

Just wanted to hopefully close the loop. Kang poses a good question regarding St. Basils. It is, at first, seemingly redundant to create a Russian image in this painting. It’s very easy to pair each painting with a country of origin by using the jewels as outlined in the beginning of the book.
It seems by including such an iconic image of Russia in the painting, JJP/Preiss are basically saying, ‘we want you to take extra consideration about the country of origin in this particular puzzle- it will help you.’ And clearly the Russian Immigration/South Brooklyn connection does. It also may help answer the question some have asked why he chose Russia (versus Italy or Ireland) for the theme of the NY painting.
It’s not as help as the Greek origin in Cleveland, but a helpful clue nonetheless.

You should also consider st basil day (orthodox).

Merlin, I had not seen this one yet–very cool. Rectangles, rectangles everywhere… and it seems there’s not one a better or worse match than the one before it. Do you have any thoughts on the red outline?
Though I know I’m a bit of an a**, and my post can be construed as “shots fired,” 421 does do very good work on these puzzles and their posts are rarely impulsive or unresearched.

phrabbott

421 does do very good work on these puzzles and their posts are rarely impulsive or unresearched.

And all serve a very important purpose. They may not always make sense to everyone (or anyone), but they eventually will.

MERLIN

https://live.staticflickr.com/30/607081 … 49c8_z.jpg

I thought this is well, Merlin. Just could never make it fit into anything productive, Brooklyn or not.
How can we speculate what a common shape could be in reference to? There are just to many possibilities even when we use the strong clues we think we have. I think we can speculate all day on what it can be but I think it is one of the clues that will be found at the dig site and make sense.
I am some point would like to do some experiments with different color filters and the hard copy of the book, go old school. I am sure its been done before but I think the hope is that it would reveal something easy like numbers or letters. In considering the podcast interview with the photographer, it may just lead to another game of counting bubbles or separating them based on size. So while tried, I would like to try different methods with the results. Whatever is there, would probably be crucial but I don’t think it will be all we need.
We still have the mess of clues from the water. The waves and ripples and reflections. This is where we are all going to stare at the image again and make out things that probably are not there.
Obviously, we only have two solves that we can use as examples, although those puzzle are not the same beast as this one. But, if the idea is that every casque is in an area with ties to the immigration story of that puzzle, would it really be as easy and broad as saying something like Gershwin was Russian and he lived in Brooklyn, so close enough? Or would the actual spot have an undeniable Russian link to it? BP seemed to be really into the immigration theme for a reason. Hell, the entire book is dedicated to it, so hard to see why he would omit that crucial detail when picking a spot.
Thoughts?

I thought the red line could possibly be a reference to Russia’s Red Square – which coincidentally houses Saint Basil’s in Russia.

MERLIN

I thought the red line could possibly be a reference to Russia’s Red Square – which coincidentally houses Saint Basil’s in Russia.

Durian

Yes, you are supposed to dig on the church’s property. It’s St. Peter’s Church, and St. Peter holds the keys to heaven. He is
the man
for the rapture, and getting into heaven, period. Rapture is defined as elated. Rhapsodic is also defined as elated. Rapture = Rhapsodic. Miriam’s even includes the word rapture in the definition of rhapsodic.
So dgging in rhapsodic man’s soil means digging in St. Peter’s soil, literally.
And the church is in the St. George neighborhood of Staten Island, on St. Mark’s Pl. Three Saints for the three domes.
BTW, St. George is the grey giant. St. George was a Roman soldier executed for failing to recant his Christian beliefs. For this he is considered a Great Martyr of the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches. Great = Giant. And he is grey because he is always depicted in paintings as wearing knight’s armor, since he was a soldier. Being “In the shadow of the grey giant” means literally being in the St. George neighborhood of Staten Island.
BTW, St. Mark looks a little familiar:

So we are supposed to ignore all the Japanese clues, all known patterns of the puzzles we know and have come to hate, and ignore the clear print in the book that says it wouldn’t be buried in private property?
Are we even playing the same game?
I will say good try. I like some aspects of your theory but the rest comes of a bit lazy. You are clearly not playing within the bounds of this game and that is going to be a big issue with anyone giving a serious attempt at it.

NYCNative

I am some point would like to do some experiments with different color filters and the hard copy of the book, go old school. I am sure its been done before but I think the hope is that it would reveal something easy like numbers or letters. In considering the podcast interview with the photographer, it may just lead to another game of counting bubbles or separating them based on size. So while tried, I would like to try different methods with the results. Whatever is there, would probably be crucial but I don’t think it will be all we need.

I think that if you’re going to try light gel overlays, start with a magenta and [yellow?] that are similar to the solid panels. Maybe that’s their purpose.

NYC. I always adopted a more simple theory for the water/waves. Other than hiding the coordinates, the generally imagery is a shore= Shore Road Park or Shore Road.
Thoughts? I don’t want to fall into the trap of overthinking these two much… The bubbles seem like quite a different story. ….

Like I said. I don’t think we are playing the same game.
How strong is your theory when it took one comment to change it. Then when you change it, you still try to make it fit your original assumption. You are living in the bubble of your theory.
The Japanese clue also says more about the rhapsodic man which you seem to have left out, for some reason.
Sorry but I don’t see the connection here, at all. The site is on someones lawn, yet you have no problem with that (WOW). Don’t mean to be ultra rude, but the only thing that seems right about this is Russia.
I think you should research the book in its entirety before researching more things to make you theory fit the way you hope it will.

davinci4

NYC. I always adopted a more simple theory for the water/waves. Other than hiding the coordinates, the generally imagery is a shore= Shore Road Park or Shore Road.
Thoughts? I don’t want to fall into the trap of overthinking these two much… The bubbles seem like quite a different story. ….

I agree I think it just means you can see water from the site.

I don’t know… it seems like devoting 1/3 of a painting to water with crazy waves and squiggles should be more than just “we’re near water”

Durian

Definitely. I am certain the patterns in the water have a meaning to the puzzle. But let’s take a step back:
We are looking at a complete seascape. No land. Why?
Why are there three drops of water?
Why is the central figure able to rise above the waves?
Why is the only other living thing a seabird?
I believe explaining why these choices were made in the image design will probably go a long way towards solving the puzzle.

Why assume they are water drops?

phrabbott

I don’t know… it seems like devoting 1/3 of a painting to water with crazy waves and squiggles should be more than just “we’re near water”

I hear you, of course it could depend on how prominent a feature the water near the site is.

It would seem durian is hinting that it’s on an island in that sage-like way people like to present theories here

phrabbott

sage

… in all fields.

I think it’s more than just water near the site given the appearance of the surf/tide. There are distinct possibilities on how to interpret it. Let me reverse it. If one were trying to convey the idea of a “Shore” wouldn’t this image be the way you would represent it?
Also, consider the discussion of both verse and image thus far in this thread regarding South Brooklyn/Shore Road Park. I think is similar relationship to how the liberty bell was used in Cleveland. Just my opinion, but I think the word “Shore” was specifically meant to be drawn from this part of the painting.

For me, it is a little hard to believe that everything in the water just is symbolic of one thing, there is just to much going on there. Sure there is a general theme of the shore or near the river, but for sure there is more to it then just that.

Oh boy! Chicken rhymes with foundation. There must be a joke there.
I was sweating balls (BINGO?!) thinking you were going to go with Church’s Chicken!

Durian

Why is the only other living thing a seabird?

Do you think that seabird has an eagle or turtle head?

NYCNative

For me, it is a little hard to believe that everything in the water just is symbolic of one thing, there is just to much going on there. Sure there is a general theme of the shore or near the river, but for sure there is more to it then just that.

Don’t forget JJP did hide the coordinates in there as well. Will be curious to see if the group finds anything more. ..
NYC. Total side note. I did go through the passages in the book. I looked at the introduction, as well as the fairy in NY and those with Russian ancestry. The only thing that stood out (and I know you are not going to like this observation) was the Tax Burden giving money to orphans…Oliver Twist. Anyone?

davinci4

Oliver Twist. Anyone?

I’m in…
http://www.traceguthrie.com/lifesize-sculptures/oliver-twist
New thread… I8/V10… who’s makin’ it?

Yes, the body is albatross not the head.

Choice

Yes, the body is albatross not the head.

A double eagle on an eagle? Wew!

Columbus Circle/USS Maine memorial area is all about sea.
Is that thing on the nose of the ship an eagle or turtle?!
https://tinyurl.com/yyqg3lz4

Glossiphoniidae

A double eagle on an eagle? Wew!

Choice

46 being 2 X 23:00, 11PM.

Comon’, Choice…. a 2 and a 3…
Where’s times square again?

Broadway/46
On an unrelated subject!:
The birds feet form the same pattern as the woman’s left hand fingers. Look where it points to.

Choice

the birds feet form the same pattern as the woman’s left hand fingers.

Isn’t that the islanders logo?

NYCNative

Guys,
We need more information about other possible probes or digs on the site since we are not the first ones to arrive at this spot for a solve. If anyone can point us in the right direction or has info on this site and what has been done or not done it would help a lot.

Why do you need that info? Just go dig. Even if someone previously dug there and was off by 6 inches, no cigar.

gManTexas

Why do you need that info? Just go dig. Even if someone previously dug there and was off by 6 inches, no cigar.

When your right your right.
I AM ON IT!!

There is a chapter about dickens travels to the US in ABROAD IN AMERICA

Because of the similarities between image 1 and 12; if the cask turns out to be in front of the high school then the odds of San Francisco cask being in front of the Galileo High would be higher. One next to baseball field, the other football field.

Choice

Because of the similarities between image 1 and 12; if the cask turns out to be in front of the high school then the odds of San Francisco cask being in front of the Galileo High would be higher. One next to baseball field, the other football field.

Choice. If this cask winds up being there, you deserve credit for the “83 (or 5)” in the red dot panel. Still one of my favorite image confirmers.

This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn’t seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not.

NYCNative

This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn’t seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not.

Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol.

NYCNative

This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn’t seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not.

NYC. When was that photo taken? Isn’t there a fire hydrant where that hole is/was?

gManTexas

Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol.

I will be there no later then Tuesday afternoon just to do a recon. It seems all the did was a bit of landscaping and that massive hole. This also all happened right after Hurricane Sandy, from the looks of it. Weird thing is the rest of the area looks fine, right after the storm, but this little portion. So probably not damage from the storm.
There should be little problem if we have to probe or dig there.

gManTexas

Are one of you going to head over there? Maybe they let you dig, lol.

As of now, this area is completely resodded and park-like again. This picture must be around 2012 when it was completely barricaded.

davinci4

NYC. When was that photo taken? Isn’t there a fire hydrant where that hole is/was?

I believe this was in 2014. NO fire hydrant. My guess is that it is a storm pipe. I am sure I will know when I get there. It isn’t a big deal since this is not where I imagine the casque would be. Be a damn shame if it was though.

Agreed. You are only looking at a very small part of the park (east side) near the fence at Shore Road, which by the looks of it, was relatively undisturbed.
NYC. If you do decide to go, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. Not only about the logistics, 22 east steps, v etc. but also your general feeling. You have studied this puzzle a long time. Will be curious what your instincts tell you as you get to the middle of the v and look up at the clock tower. Take the 22 steps (or more) to the fence. Does it all line up? Without the trees, is SOL visible in the distance? Can you see (“hear”) the bikers on the promenade? How is the view of the Verrazano? What is the terrain like there?
Maybe you will uncover additional clues we can’t see without being there.
Very exciting!

davinci4

Agreed. You are only looking at a very small part of the park (east side) near the fence at Shore Road, which by the looks of it, was relatively undisturbed.
NYC. If you do decide to go, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. Not only about the logistics, 22 east steps, v etc. but also your general feeling. You have studied this puzzle a long time. Will be curious what your instincts tell you as you get to the middle of the v and look up at the clock tower. Take the 22 steps (or more) to the fence. Does it all line up? Without the trees, is SOL visible in the distance? Can you see (“hear”) the bikers on the promenade? How is the view of the Verrazano? What is the terrain like there?
Maybe you will uncover additional clues we can’t see without being there.
Very exciting!

For sure! I will take in the sights. I will take some pictures and post them on the discord first. If anything pops out to us, then I will post them here.
I am very excited as well!

NYCNative

This is the area in full construction/renovation status. It looks as if the major part of this construction is that deep hole at the top of the V. Not sure what that is. I am trying to find out what the reason for the construction is but it doesn’t seen that they broke much ground, except for that one spot. At least I hope not.

NYC. Found the info on the construction in front of Fort Hamilton HS in 2012. It was called “The Siphon Project,” part of building a new water tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island to update old infrastructure as well as to make the new one deeper, so that larger boats can now pass into New York harbor.
https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/pres … 42pr.shtml

Doghousereiley

There is a chapter about dickens travels to the US in ABROAD IN AMERICA

This is interesting. Seems to me that entire book is worth a read.

davinci4

NYC. Found the info on the construction in front of Fort Hamilton HS in 2012. It was called “The Siphon Project,” part of building a new water tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island to update old infrastructure as well as to make the new one deeper, so that larger boats can now pass into New York harbor.
https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/pres … 42pr.shtml

This is awesome!!
Great find D!
I won’t have time today to go to the site, so for sure tomorrow. Although now I am just tempted to go with the shovel and probe and go for it!
We would be surprised to find out that nobody has gone to the spot before to probe or dig. If they did, no posts have been made about it. Doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen and also doesn’t matter at this point.
Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling.
Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this?

NYCNative

Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling.
Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this?

That’s why I said, you have a natural obstruction at about 22 steps of the fence. Line yourself up with the rectangle, flagpole and clock. Look down, stick shovel in the ground.

NYCNative

This is awesome!!
Great find D!
I won’t have time today to go to the site, so for sure tomorrow. Although now I am just tempted to go with the shovel and probe and go for it!
We would be surprised to find out that nobody has gone to the spot before to probe or dig. If they did, no posts have been made about it. Doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen and also doesn’t matter at this point.
Just using google maps, I notice that the 22 steps from the V puts you under some trees, on the lawn of that portion of the ballfields. While standing there, if you look directly across the street, you are right in front of the High school entrance. I thought this overhead seemed compelling.
Do you think the shape of the lawn in front of the school has anything to do with this?

That lawn in front of the school kind of matches the gray rectangle panel we have been pondering over..even more interesting when you look at it from that angle- A patch of grass between the trees and the fence about 50 feet from middle of the v, lining up with the clock tower!

Guys,
We need more information about other possible probes or digs on the site since we are not the first ones to arrive at this spot for a solve. If anyone can point us in the right direction or has info on this site and what has been done or not done it would help a lot.

Hi All. Just getting caught up here.
Thanks for taking and posting the photos of Oliver St. Rules out that location in my opinion. Very similar to JPJ: although some nice confirmers here and there, Oliver street doesn’t really have anything on the ground going for it.
The Fort Hamilton HS “v” looks very promising indeed. The photo you posted at the middle of the v, lines up almost perfectly with the clock and 22 steps right to the fence.
Looking back, this solve was created organically with no preconceived locations that were “retrofitted” with a solution. It was a step by step process, including/excluding locations based on the clues in the verse. Put it this way either you have identified the correct location or this one of the biggest coincidences in the history of solutions in the Secret. The fact that you are standing right in the middle of the v, lined up with the clock tower and take twenty two steps to the fence makes it hard to argue, especially when you can check off all the boxes in the verse that got you there.
NYC, phrabbot. A few questions: was SOL and bike path visible from the location? Whats the deal with lock, did someone leave it there as marker or did it actually lock something? More subjective, but was your general feel of the location? Preiss traveled all over the country to hide these, was it “Secret worthy” in your opinion?

How did the search go???

Ok, so I actually feel better about this area than I originally did.
The good? It was quite easily 22 steps and change to the fence. Like 23 steps. Unless you’re NYCNative and take little kid baby steps.
So we went ahead and dug a few holes in the most likely “line ups.” Had a couple cops loop around on us, so we would fill our hole and sketch off for a bit making it slow going.
The ground along the fence is super diggable. Very few rocks or roots. Anyone in NYC have a GPR? I think it might actually do something here. Interestingly (and expectedly), the key, most obvious line up had a pretty big divot. Not a 6″ divot, but definitely an “I’ve been dug before divot.” Grass had regrown, so at least a couple months had passed. It also had a pad lock hanging above it. Not sure if the pad lock was related, but still weird.
However, we didn’t find anything… yet.

LOL “little kid baby steps”! I was actually scared that the steps would take us out the park but like poopy doo doo head said, It brought us right up to the fence which is awesome because that lawn is a lot bigger then it looks in aerial photos. Had the 22 taken us to the middle of the field only, we would have serious problem locating a logical dig spot.
There are a few possible dig spots that line up with what we think are the clues to this puzzle. If we had a permit or better window to dig without being ultra paranoid and cautious, we would have either dug it out or been able to rule out the spot totally. We will be back shortly with a better set up, better tools, and a better cover for the people traffic and police.

I applaud you guys for digging. Not sure how many people on here would actually dig.
Keep at it!

@davinci: Here are your Oliver St. “v” photos. I don’t believe in it, and regret putting the idea in your head, but I will defend to my death your right to look into it
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k1qh8z2y4bak … W_0ia?dl=0
Behind us is a really long staircase of oversized stairs. More than 22, surrounded by fence and ‘forest’ (as a little girl that was quite excited to go down the steps described it.)

Are those steps coming down from old glory pedestrian bridge? The curved ones on each side, how many steps (if steps)? 18 + 1?
https://tinyurl.com/y4ef7ol4

maltedfalcon

many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses
together and seperately
no one has found anything ever
are you saying you found something?

I am sure someone has tried every lens possible and color combos by now. What pops up are distinct “bubbles” in a pattern. Doesn’t seem to spell anything out.
However, did anyone actually try the color filters with the theory of counting the bubbles and applying it to a solve area?
I also tried stereogram programs and that seems to be a big no go. However, when I removed one layer, what was left was the same dominant bubbles.
Meaning, we might have the right tool, just not the right method of putting it together.
OR Choice has the only magic eye here and the complex puzzle of solving the panels was as easy as his proposal.
I wish I could remember the name of those puzzle and games from the 80’s with the plastic colored tabs that reveal messages and patterns.

Hi All.
Just thought it might be worth listing any substantial landmarks in South Shore Park (we need a break from him of hard word
). Doesn’t seem like there are a lot of them in South Shore Park.
The list of streets with non-numbers:
-Bay Ridge Ave/Parkway
-Mackay
-Oliver
-Ridge
Buildings:
-Fort Hamilton HS
Monuments/Plaques:
-Dewey/Old Glory
-Memorial for Richard Cochea
Any others?

Here are a couple of panoramic images from high vantage points:
Top of the school’s clock tower
https://tinyurl.com/y3o96at8
Drone shot?
https://tinyurl.com/y6xhhsto

To be honest, I think we have a lot of information on the verse.
I think we should be spend more time on the image and images in the book that could be important to the puzzle.
I would love to know what is in the bubble patterns. Common answer to what it could be, even from folks who are not into the puzzle at all, is the color blind test. Perhaps we need better insight as to how the tests works and try to deconstruct it that way. If it is something in the range of color minipulation, then maybe we should focus in on a way they would do that in 1980. 3D glasses seem to have no effect but I am sure there are other ways. I remember little sheets of plastic that was used to decipher clues on cereal boxes back then. So maybe just a different color, like yellow.
I would love to also know what those egg shaped orbs are. I have heard numerous theories but they fell apart, for me, when I really looked at this illustration
This is the only time I have seen the egg orb anywhere else but in image 12. I see some patterns with the hair but I am not sure if it is wishful thinking, so I would like to get some other perspectives on it.
Thoughts?
Also, this is the illustration from the page about the Russian fair folk leaving Russia. As you can see in the far right side of the page, we have an onion dome that is obviously related to image 12’s. We have a clear view of the window and it’s detailed shape. Just another reason why I do not think we are visually looking for an onion domed building in NYC.

NYCNative

3D glasses seem to have no effect but I am sure there are other ways.

You missed the point of my suggestion of using the 3D glasses. The idea was to filter blue and red light since the panels are red and blue color based.
To do this you need to look at the panels with single lens at a time. So if you have 3D glasses wear it then cover red lens with your hand and look at the red panel. The bluish area will pop. Color contrast is less with other panels so one may have more difficulty hence the degree of hardness.

Yes. The painting is somewhat of an enigma. In previous thread, we were discussing this observation with Kang. The issue here is whether or not this image acts more like Chicago (lots of detail) or Milwaukee (little detail). My gut feeling is that this puzzle is more ‘verse heavy’ like Milwaukee. However, there very well could be hidden clues in those bubbles. I do like Choice’s observation about the red ones, one would think the other bubbles would yield something as well. The red seems to offer more color variation than the others however. Perhaps the two non-red bubbles are supposed to be solved differently. A possible clue about ‘size ratio’ was offered in the podcast.
Choice. Thank you for the aerial imagery. ..Hmm. the set of lights outlines the V very nicely in front of the playground. Would love to know if there is anything of interest, just adjacent East (between the V and Shore Road).

Choice

You missed the point of my suggestion of using the 3D glasses. The idea was to filter blue and red light since the panels are red and blue color based.
To do this you need to look at the panels with single lens at a time. So if you have 3D glasses wear it then cover red lens with your hand and look at the red panel. The bluish area will pop. Color contrast is less with other panels so one may have more difficulty hence the degree of hardness.

many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses
together and seperately
no one has found anything ever
are you saying you found something?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=754&start=1289

maltedfalcon

many many people have tried all kinds of filters including 3d glasses
together and seperately
no one has found anything ever
are you saying you found something?

I think Choice has. As I mentioned before. I don’t think the “85 st.” is coincidental considering the area we are looking in

Goonie68

Maybe?
One branch of the V, Military branch = NA-VY? From the Brooklyn Naval Yard south , Flatbush and Washington form a V.
https://ibb.co/BChVJCy

One branch of the V:
Navy’s connection to Russia: USS Maine Memorial –> Cuba [island] –> Cuban missile crises with USSR
Coast Guard connection: Founded by Hamilton, base on Governors Island [island]

I created a discord channel so that we may continue conversations on this topic as well as open some new ones on image 12/v10.
Perhaps if we have the ability to have a closed group, without unneeded distractions, we can make a bit more progress.
No offense to those on the spectrum. It is just difficult to build on a conversation when others just want to post every brain fart they have as a possible solve.
Anyone who would like to join are welcomed!
pm me for invite.
On a separate note: Props to anyone going out to dig/probe in this HEAT! That is more dedication that even I have! Best of luck!

NYCNative

I created a discord channel… others just want to post every brain fart they have as a possible solve

Translation: “My farts smell better than your farts.”

Glossiphoniidae

Translation: “My farts smell better than your farts.”

Interesting translation. Sounds like you are projecting more then translating.
Don’t fret. One day your posts will make total sense…..One day.

NYCNative

Props to anyone going out to dig/probe in this HEAT! That is more dedication that even I have! Best of luck!

Glossiphoniidae

Translation: “My farts smell better than your farts.”

No luck today. Unless rocks count, which they don’t. Renovator – you can cross an additional 0.00000001% of NYC off the list of where it might be. That’s the only good news.
Much as I’d love some good fart humor, let me try a different tact. Posting in the Image 12 thread is like tying a rope around a tree and pulling. But that tree is not going anywhere because there are 10 other groups with their own rope pulling the tree in another direction. Then it devolves into a fight about who’s rope is better and which way is the right way to pull and nothing goes anywhere.
NYCNative created this thread as an experiment to see if a conversation could be more constructive if all the folks there were pulling in the same direction. Is it the right direction? Who knows.
If someone posts there that the woman in the dress looks like a statue in Dyker Heights and someone wants to critique that by saying that it’s not a match because the hair, dress and arms are totally not a match, that’s constructive and so be it. But if you just post over an over again that the match is to a statue in Eisenhower Park on Long Island, then you’re just trolling this thread. And then it devolves into aforementioned mudslinging.
Go ahead with your ideas. But I think NYCNative would ask you to please post them in the Image 12 thread. People reading this thread will see it. And respond there if they like.
An experiment like this to see if it might reduce the unnecessary aggressiveness around here is worth a try. Because it’s needed.

Unknown

Unknown:
Don’t fret. One day your posts will make total sense…..One day.

Man, I certainly hope so.

Even if it doesn’t at least he had fun doing it. I take that over being miserable and angry any day!

Here it is. Courtesy of Harley Quinn
http://imgur.com/gallery/7YU1ERn

davinci4

I was looking into past threads about Fort Hamilton HS. One major reason they were sidetracked was regarding the false information that he attended it. I mention it because I don’t want the group going down this rabbit hole again.

Yes, given what his classmate Ben Asen said on the podcast last year and the yearbook photo you mention, it seems pretty clear that Byron went to Midwood High school. For what it’s worth I chased that rabbit last year – I contacted the Brooklyn Library and someone kindly went through their copies of “The Tower” (Fort Hamilton HS yearbook) for 1967-70 and reported back to me that she could not find a Bryon Preiss in any of those.
And not to muddy the waters, but another thing I found last year, since davinci brings up the subject (well done):
The current site of Fort Hamilton High School and it’s athletic fields used to be the site of the Crescent Athletic Club – and it went all the way down to the water – including what is now the ballfield davinci is interested in. Some of the members there are the source of some of the mansions that still exist near there.
https://www.brownstoner.com/history/past-and-present-the-crescent-athletic-club-bay-ridge/
There seems to be quite a few crescents and arches piling up in this puzzle, huh? Anyone sense a theme?

davinci4

Here it is. Courtesy of Harley Quinn
http://imgur.com/gallery/7YU1ERn

Just for fun….
According to his yearbook credits – and if the info that he graduated in 1968 is accurate – he should be in these somewhere. They were/are kind of a big deal at Midwood High School.
1,000 Secret ‘nerd points’ if you can pick out Byron’s voice….
Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dtBEQyi-hQ
Midwood High School “Senior Sing” Side B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_doiJjQaEY

davinci4

Not sure. …Kang, can you help us with this one?

Umm, you guys are asking if I can help you with your Hardword Johnsons? Pass. Sounds like a setup.
What’s next, a round of “Moron says, what??”

Kang

Umm, you guys are asking if I can help you with your Hardword Johnsons? Pass. Sounds like a setup.
What’s next, a round of “Moron says, what??”

LMAO Hardword JOhnson!
No that was a joke. We where trying to find what the baseball field in front of the High school was named before its current name, which is Frank Schnurr ballfields.

Not as bad as Muffin grounds
http://www.covehurst.net/ddyte/brooklyn/otherparks.html