forest_blight

It’s lonely out there, and sand is easy to dig in.

Also easier for Mother Nature to dig in tho.  Wouldnt erosion be something BP would think about when burying a casque?

Yes, if he thought the hunt would last more than a few months, which he didn’t.

Unknown

Unknown:
mica refers to glitz and glitter (razzle dazzle)-theater
drfitwood refers to the theater itself (see photo)

Unknown

Unknown:
This is also called the Waterside Theater for its location
This stage would be the last touched if someone was getting
on a boat and leaving the island behind the stage from the beach.
Also, this is the first seen standing if someone was arriving at the island
on this spot of the beach.

Unknown

Unknown:
Behind the stage there must only be so many areas that are digging assessible
and not under water.  I assume that looking North at the Devil Hill would help
select the spot.

To play devil’s advocate…
This is a pretty big stretch, I think. There is no shortage of
actual
driftwood on the beach west of the stage. The stage is locked up at night and there are people there during the day. I don’t think it is quite remote enough to bury a casque in. The beach itself, though, would be ideal.
But this would apply to
any
location on the shore.
Behind the stage, and for some distance in either direction, the beach is covered by large rocks to prevent erosion. Aerial views through Google Earth will show you what I mean. It’s treacherous to walk on them.

Assuming that Goggle Earth was not around in 1982,
but it is a great shot and great thought provoker….
Look at this which is proably the medium used for this
book….
http://www.nps.gov/fora/about.htm
Can the reference to circle and square refer
to the theater parking and not the garderns.
If this were the case, you would be searching too far
west.

I’ll buy that as a possibility. But I think the Sunken Garden is a better match, since they are a true circle and square whereas the parking lots are only approximations.

But as the verse saids, you are not looking at
the actual areas, just their representations
on a map.

Following the link about the play,
the right side of the stage has a
repesentation of the boat
as a mast which actually moves on
and of the stage within the production.
This mast, at its resting position,
is between the stage and just
beyond the parking lot area.
Could this be “last seen standing”?
You can see it on your goggle earth.

See behind the scenes….
a photo of behind the stage
(but from the left side)
http://www.nps.gov/fora/images.htm
I am still wodering about the last part
of the verse and if it was written in
describing either their sailing vessel, their
voyage, or just the lost people.

BINGO.
The last lines describe the “wing”
you are looking North at.
see……
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/nc-historic … ndunf.html
The title is from the inscription on the Kitty Hawk momument.

spacecraft9 noted that the lines refer to the Kitty Hawk monument in 2004. It has also been noted that one can see the Memorial itself from the beach on Roanoke. There are many, many good findings in earlier pages in this thread.

Seems so long ago….

Photo of the poles in the water…
this is early 1960 after the second theater
was knocked down.
Nice shot of shoreline.
http://www.outerbanks.com/lostcolony/hi … y-06.shtml

Nice find! I’ll bet the protective rocks were placed there after the reconstruction, which would have been years before the casque was buried.
Even if the verse didn’t point us to the beach west of the theatre (I think it does), remember that the beach would have been much easier for BP to access than the theatre. It’s lonely out there, and sand is easy to dig in.

You still need a virtually unmovable reference
point in which to key off of.
Byron would have made sure of that.
The path to the Dark Forest to me
is the walk from the box office to the stage.

While driftwood may be very common on the beach there,
mica would not be…
Its uses are in paint and heat resistant insulation – electronics..
sounds like amniotronics and lighting.
http://www.mii.org/Minerals/photomica.html
Not your common variety garden material.

i hope you are able to go cw!  i think you will need to spend a couple of days right there at the elizabethan gardens and lost colony.
it just hit me ( duh) that BP mentions Image 3 itself in this verse.   “to the land near the window”  (the shape of roanoke island beside the window in  Image 3)….wonder if this could be another thing he does in other verses, like in verse 7 where it says “in jewel’s direction”, could be from GGP shape to the jewel in the image.
this is what forest_blight has for the roads for verse 11 (from p. 18 of the General Questions thread)
V11
Pass two friends of octave
In December (NC 12)
Ride the man of oz
To the land near the window
There’s a road that leads to (almost certainly Hwy. 64)
Dark forest

cw is now slapping self on head and expressing a BIG DUH!
thanks slappy, have been trying to work that line out, since i read the V
way back when. good idea about the other verses too
nothing like a clue, right in your face, and in the open
then your sure to miss it
eljayo if i can fit the ride to the park in ill take the pics
is this a place i should give attention to? if i get there

i may have time to go to N.C. at the end of september, ill be in chesapeake va.
for 8 days, and if i can squeeze, a 70 mile ride in, about the middle of my stay,
ill go to the park, and see what i can see. so ive been looking, and thinking
about v11 and v5,. so far this is all ive come up with.
any suggestions would be great
and that bench, will be the first thing i look at, and dig at
from what i understand, 2 foot or more of sand could be there/ ie hurricanes tropical storms,
and just the wind blowing sand for 20+ yrs
…………………………………………………………………………..
v5 not ruled out yet to me, and i did  find a west baum, street/road near the sight of
FFA, just south west of the memorial, and landing strip
the line, ……….lane two twenty two………
may be saying, 2 lane, lane 20, and lane 2
see below, there is a left and right traffic pattern
yes i know iffy, just trying to cover the bases ya know
Runway Information
RUNWAY 2
Gradient:  0.1%
Traffic pattern:  LEFT
Markings:  nonprecision, in good condition
Obstructions:  15 ft. road, 486 ft. from runway, 19:1 slope to clear
HAS +15 FT ROAD 125 FT R; 0-200 FT FROM THLD. 80 FT PLINE 1700 FT FROM THLD.
Runway 20
Gradient:  0.1%
Traffic pattern: RIGHT
Markings:  nonprecision, in good condition
Obstructions: 34 ft. trees, 1089 ft. from runway, 4 ft. left of centerline, 26:1 slope to clear
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFFA
i thought of hang gliding too,
not exactly wingless ie; one large wing
http://www.kittyhawk.com/info/history.cfm
……………………………………………………………………………………..
always thought v11 was the v to p3, but again just trying, to cover all bases ya know
anyway, near the circle square, and grave marker, is a path that has not been followed
at least i found no mention of it, could have missed that discussion though,
and the other path/trail has been checked, as it goes to the garden. sorry no map to show of the
other path/trail
anyway pause vids at times indicated, to see what im talking about
i think i remember a marker/sign, was there to indicate where the
circle square/ earthworks are
last visit was 2004 i think, maybe 2003
circle and square…look/pause at 42 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSmuj6twbtY
i dont remember this marker at all
symbol on armor at the marker/ grave stone and the july and august reference
i think this is near the circle square ie: earthworks
look/pause at 3 minute and 53 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM6exVR_zXI
To the land near the window
has this line, been resolved as to what its saying
a house has windows, and i found this
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lon=-75 … atum=nad83
from this link
http://www.topozone.com/states/NorthCar … ure=Island

Unknown

Unknown:
“Yes the road does end in a cul-de sac.  To the right is the cemetery, which is very old and seems to contain the remains of just two families.  Past the cemetery is the beach, but it is inaccessable from this location.  The reason is that the cemetery and environs are on a bluff, which rises about 25 feet above the beach, and is tangled with brush and large rocks which were placed there to curtail erosion. You cannot get onto the beach safely from the bluff.  From the bluff you can look down the beach all the way to Waterside Theatre.  There is lots of
driftwood at this end of the beach, and you can see the “Wing” very clearly from this location
as there are no obstructions at all.  I also think that the cross in Image 3 has to do either with the ships mast used at the Waterside theatre, or as you postulate, the cemetary at the end of Pear Pad road.    Sorry, no pictures.  The road is a paved surface, and is about 300 feet from the beach.”

YES! It seem to me if you follow the v11’s instructions you will end at the cul-de-sac of pear road where you can see the wings monument.
Kato already was there, but don’t have pics:
So… If I could be there, first sight surelly would be this place. (see previous thread to read more about other details).

I think a strong connection betwen p3 and v11 is
“Ride the man of oz” (cross the bridge)
“To the Land near the window” (in p3 the shape of Roanoke isle is beside the window).
cw, if you’ve the oportunity to go there, try to get some pictures at the end of pear road. It’ll be appreciate.

Simple in concept.
I like it.

Has anyone ever noticed that the clappers on those two bells are a “circle and square”…?

forest_blight

Has anyone ever noticed that the clappers on those two bells are a “circle and square”…?

I didn’t, but I know someone who has and happens to think they actually match a certain device used by the coast guard.

I just thought they looked like wind chimes.

Glossiphoniidae

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the “CRO” tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly “under that”. Too simple?

four-
I like literal interpretations. Absolutely not too simple. It would be worth a probe if the age checks out…
While I’m not sure about the age of the tree prop, do you or anyone know if that gate has for sure been dug at from the beach side? Dug down enough, and forward possibly to be actually under the gate? Can we for sure rule this out?
To me, that is something that is last touched (i.e. when you leave somewhere the last thing that you do is close a door). And the first thing (structure?) seen standing to anyone approaching the beach there (let’s say by boat) would be the gate (
http://www.carolsorgen.com/sampledet.as … ampleId=69
). I don’t know. I like this area, and it would be the secluded, back part of the park. And to me, the column that is holding the suit of armor looks similar to one of the gate columns.

cw0909

i think this is the plaque, does anyone know what it says

To mica and driftwood
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Beach…beech…?
. . . . . . . . .
Here’s a couple more pics of the Bell plaque.

Now, if only there weren’t a hurricane hurtling toward Manteo…

I believe I might drive out to Roanoke this Saturday to do a little reconnaissance. I plan to take my camera and copies of V11 and P3. Any requests or advice?

Good luck forest – if I could do my trip over again,  i’d (a) spend some more time around the Garden Gate to the beach, (b) talk to someone at the Gardens to see if they have heard rumors of the treasure, and (c) look closer at the pic of what looks like Manteo island and compare it to the actual map – the line on the pic that extends northwards might be important.  I don’t think I was in the place that corresponds to the line on the pic.
Unrelated to the secret, don’t forget the good seafood, if you are into that.  And there are some cool shipwreck remnants as you follow the beach south.

The most amazing thing about this hunt for me is it is all about the find. People who are in it for the money or fame soon lose interest.
Hear hear!
I’ve got my printouts, my maps, my Coppertone, my bug spray… and heck, I’ll even toss my shovel in the trunk on the .1% chance inspiration strikes and no one is looking.

Not for nothing, but the Gazebo is made without nails.  EJ Bandfield’s MY TROPIC ISLE talks about a structure built from mica and driftwood, tied together without nails. “Which may be last touched or first seen”, haven’t got a clue.  Definately look around the Gazebo though.  Good luck.

if it’s the sea gate, and looking at it from cw’s point of view, being inside the garden it would be the right side of the gate looking out into the sea, because that’s the only one shown in the image clearly, don’t you think? or clearer anyway.  but since the jewel is “over” the ball of the gate column (in the image), maybe it’s on the outside of the garden, but still the one on the right from inside. lol
is that the side you probed on kato?

eljayo

•There is a very small familiar cemetery
http://files.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/c … ough01.txt
with graves
http://www.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/photos/dough1.html
(possible reference to mica?)
So, this cemetery could explain the cross in the pic3.
At the end of the Path, there is a odd objet in the shore and “
may be the last touched
“
I think We need more clues from pic in order to determine the exact spot to dig.
I hope one of you might explore this area soon…

I just love cyclic thinking of “The Secret forum”… Pear Pad road again… we all can find new things revisiting old threads.
Please cw.. when you visit roanoke, do not forget to take a look around pear pad road, and i will give you an exact location to search…
Try to find this tombstone:
http://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/dough_manteo/unknown.jpg
(take a picture of the other side) and look at the wings direction(wright monument). Next step: go out of the cemetery to the shore follow wings direction (all us know there is not a casque) and then… well you know…  :mop  ;).
Kato says there is a bluff, but may BP was able to dig there or close…

lol cw! i’m sorry, i just get excited and want someone to go find these things!  but you know, even the digging is going to be hard, seems you have to go like 3 or 4 feet deep, and then 3 or 4 feet wide, that’s bad enough without jumping fences and running from the law………..
kato,  do you live there?   have you gone the route of getting the park people involved? has anyone?
forest_blight? didn’t you live near there?  eljayo, you seem to know the area, did you live there, or are you still close by?
i just can’t get excited outside of the garden, like the cemetery and pear pad road…..i’m not convinced.
Image 3 has the stylus devil, and he’s cultural……..and to me, the elizabethan gardens fits that, for the english (queen elizabeth) or americans (virginia dare) and even native americans with the lost colony.
i wish i could meet you cw, but it’s like 7 hours from here or more, i’ve seen the wright brothers and “the lost colony play”, but it was years before i’d ever heard of this hunt.  we didn’t go to the elizabethan gardens.  and if i’m remembering right, it was dark when i saw the play, so i didn’t see much of that area.
matter of fact, i don’t think we saw the museum or anything, we just went to see the play.

Unknown

Unknown:
Guess the 80’s were a much different time.

They were. But my guess is that the phone call he would have received back then would be just as scathing as the one he would receive today, were he alive. It would have just been a little more expensive to place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV__vRQ8fC0

We wish you the best in your search but rest assured the search does not include The Elizabethan Gardens.
In my world, that’s exactly what they are saying. I was just trying to have a little fun with the comment and the fact that they mention the Search on their website.

I have found 3 new hidden clues in the image……I’m pretty sure I have solved this puzzle.

MERLIN

I have found 3 new hidden clues in the image……I’m pretty sure I have solved this puzzle.

It’s in Roanoke, Alabama?
Roanoke, Illinois…?
Would you believe Roanoke, Indiana?
How about Kentucky…or, Louisiana….? ?
Texas or Missouri….? ? ?
(West Virginia…?)

http://www.placesnamed.com/r/o/roanoke.asp

Unknown

Unknown:
It’s in Roanoke, Alabama?

Well crap. No wonder I can’t find it. Good news for our friends in ‘bama, though. Roll Tide.

Mister EZ

It’s in Roanoke, Alabama?
Roanoke, Illinois…?
Would you believe Roanoke, Indiana?
How about Kentucky…or, Louisiana….? ?
Texas or Missouri….? ? ?
(West Virginia…?)

http://www.placesnamed.com/r/o/roanoke.asp

https://youtu.be/l6i-gYRAwM0
12 seconds in he tells you where the casks are buried.

Unknown

Unknown:
I’m pretty sure I have solved this puzzle.

In all seriousness, my understanding is that the next podcast is going to feature the Roanoke puzzle, so your timing couldn’t be better. You may want to reach out to them Merlin.

Merlot Brougham

https://youtu.be/l6i-gYRAwM0
12 seconds in he tells you where the casks are buried.

So
that’s
what JM looks like….

The reason we know it’s gotta be in Elizabethan Gardens is because the Park says its not.
https://elizabethangardens.org/the-secr … sure-hunt/

Unknown

Unknown:
because the Park says its not

They don’t say that at all. They are saying they are not involved. If it is there, it’s because Preiss put it there without their knowledge or permission. The thing you need to ask yourself is do you think he would do that? And before you answer, consider the phone call he would have received from the fine ladies of The Garden Club of North Carolina the very first time someone was caught digging surreptitiously in their gardens, looking for buried treasure.

Honestly I can’t believe he would have buried them anywhere public or private in this day and age; probably why Michael Stadther put tokens in tree knots when his book came out. Guess the 80’s were a much different time.

This seems silly, but I thought about the idea of making a gesture combined with the Wright brothers theme and I thought this cheerleading position resembled the shape of the lookout pole.

Unknown

Unknown:
You had asked several months ago regarding the vintage of the signs located along the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail at Fort Raleigh National Historic Site.
Most were designed and placed along the trail by 1985, in time for the 400th anniversary of the Roanoke Voyages. They were designed with assistance from the Harpers Ferry Wayside Design and planning office for the National Park Service.
My apologies for the late response, but this is the ideal time for taking care of your question. Please feel free to email or contact me for any other questions and comments you may have.

Unknown

Unknown:
I have consulted someone who had worked here years ago, and here is an additional note to share with you:
All the present nature trail waysides were designed by a student intern in the late 70’s named Ken Johns. There was no involvement by Harpers Ferry Center, and they were in place by 1982.
There was once a very handsome dual post sign for the Thomas Harriot Nature Trail near the trail entrance. It seems to have been removed, perhaps due to rot.
Hope this will help fill out the answer I had given earlier. The only other improvement to the spot would be the erosion control logs, holding back the soil near the water upon which the bench and posts rest. I do not know of the record or information of that kind of work to share with you.

Unknown

Unknown:
I wish there was a warmer lead to find Ken, but that goes back so many years that it may have left our institutional knowledge. I’ll ask one or two local people, but unfortunately I probably won’t be able to locate him for you. I’ll check, but if you don’t hear back soon it means I can’t find what you need to contact him.

Happy holidays to all. I have been in contact with an official at Fort Raleigh on Roanoke Island regarding those signposts on the Hariot Trail overlook. Recall that I am of the opinion that whatever these posts once held may prove to be the key to this riddle.
He responds (12/9/05):
and (12/13/05):
I am looking for Ken Johns. I’ve also made an inquiry at the Harpers Ferry Center about the contents of their old markers. I’ll report if I find out anything.
Followup:

I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there’s nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious “last touched” is a flag. (“Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.”) I guess that might also pass for “first seen standing”. I wondered about the flagstones or “flags” that appear in the image….I always had this idea about one of the casques being buried under a stone slab.
From four21thrasher’s pics I can see how the path to mica and driftwood could lead naturally on from the Fort Raleigh “circle and square”. If I was on Roanoke I’d definitely want to walk the Hariot Trail and look out for wire fences like this with a view of the wing, especially for any leaning posts or paving slabs. Any chance of taking an afternoon off Paul…?  🙂

WhiteRabbit

I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there’s nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious “last touched” is a flag. (“Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.”) I guess that might also pass for “first seen standing”. I wondered about the flagstones or “flags” that appear in the image….I always had this idea about one of the casques being buried under a stone slab.
From four21thrasher’s pics I can see how the path to mica and driftwood could lead naturally on from the Fort Raleigh “circle and square”. If I was on Roanoke I’d definitely want to walk the Hariot Trail and look out for wire fences like this with a view of the wing, especially for any leaning posts or paving slabs. Any chance of taking an afternoon off Paul…?  🙂

I will have some photos done in the next few days. I wll try to look at all these recent posts and see if I can come up with something for each idea.

Thanks Paul. I see the Nature Trail has a series of signs with quotes from Hariot’s
Briefe and True Report
. I’d be interested to get the texts from these. (I wonder if the missing sign was one of them.)
Here’s the frontispiece to Hariot’s report. The column…?
The hanging bells?
The book was illustrated by
Theodor de Bry
. I imagine BP could have obtained a copy. The same illustration seems to have been used as the title page for de Bry’s “Grand Voyages”, and a higher resolution version can be seen
here
. I wonder if any of the signs in this area show Theodore’s illustrations, or even that particular image.

boogieman

Not for nothing, but the Gazebo is made without nails.  EJ Bandfield’s MY TROPIC ISLE talks about a structure built from mica and driftwood, tied together without nails. “Which may be last touched or first seen”, haven’t got a clue.  Definately look around the Gazebo though.  Good luck.

This little tidbit (MY Tropical Isle) goes well with the Lost Colony.  I think I found it on the Project Gutenberg, which has alot of BP’s things on there.  Another literary reference?  I forget where I read that the gazebo at the Gardens was built without nails.  That was 2 1/2 yrs ago. I’ll have to search again.  Trohn, I believe that the verse could be using mica and driftwood symbolically or as a synonym for the gazebo.

boogie – there are nails at least in the
flooring
of the gazebo, and maybe the walls as well. I remember looking for nails when I was there, since the issue had recently come up before I visited.

Paul Kitchen

I am not sure about the Harriot Trail location. If I understand this correctly, the only two finds have been close to something rather solid and long lasting. There is nothing like that around the trail.

2/12 isn’t really enough to draw any firm conclusions. Anything that was there in 1982 and is still there now is long-lasting though, and fair game…a wire fence, a sign, a railing…
Quick recap. Here’s how I’m seeing this at the moment.
Pass two friends of octave
In December
Wright brothers
Ride the man of oz
To the land near the window
Roanoke
There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest
Elizabethan Gardens
Where white is in color
With two maps
The overlook on the Hariot Trail.
After circle and square
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
After the parking lot, the Hariot Trail
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Dunno
Look north at the wing
And dig
To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
View of the Wright brothers monument
Determination
Your goal
Dunno
The overlook is my favourite at the moment. Might “goal” be the railing? Pretty low goal though. More a hockey goal. I feel this “goal” might be key.

Dude, that goallie idea is slick.

Has anyone noticed a detail from the film footage of the first flight where the off-duty men from Kill Devil Hills LSS are pulling a rope together?  Its rigged to a big lead weight thats being hoisted up a skeletal tower as the potential energy source for the Wright Flyer’s take off launch from the track on the hill.
Thats a perfect reason for having a bunch of objects hanging from lines in image 3.
I discovered theres a certain theme interconnecting some elements.  Oz, of the Wizard of Oz, is an inventor, he utilizes the form of flight that preceded the Wright Bros… the hot air balloon.  The theme for this puzzle is the suspension of objects and the inventions for that purpose which transports people from one place to another.*
*George W. Manby

WR,i like the rail idea,
Under that
Which may be last touched
—–
the rail,most people are inclined to,rest their hands,forearms on it
the MAY BE,could be you touched the rail,after you sat,instead of b4
EX.
http://www.louisfuqua.net/leaningonrail.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2FJOB7E0dng/T … G_0260.JPG
Or first seen standing
—–
when you walk up the path,maybe the rail comes into view 1st,as the
bench may have been where the stumps are
EX.
http://www.indonesiateakfurniture.com/t … re-set.jpg
http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-page-mai … 00×800.jpg
utube of island wood @ 3:44,starts view of a rail,maybe the rail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlraPcV4Hg4
older imgs i think
http://www.roanokesound.com/photo-galle … oke-island
maybe the grave stone cross looking things mean this
http://www.graveyardoftheatlantic.com/History.htm

Unknown

Unknown:
My biggest regret isn’t not digging, it’s not taking mosquito repellent. You may doubt all you like, but I am certain mosquitoes ate the Lost Colony.

Lol  😀

travwv, glad to see your still on the case for the NC treasure. Looking forward to reading about your find in the Roanoke Daily Herald soon.

WhiteRabbit

lol.
OK, sounds cool. What do you reckon Paul…?
I like the fact he was an astronomer…are these telescopes…?
Your goal
Goal…goalposts…between two posts…?

The black meatal objects are small cannons. They are replicas of small guns that would have been mounted on the ships that brought the settlers to the New world. They have a special name that I need to look up. I will get back to you with that. Over the next few days I will photograph the beach area outside the Water Gate and along the beach inside the park. Keep in mind that the Wing can be seen from just about every spot along the edge of the park. I have discovered an intersting alignment using the two maps (that I found), the Dare monument, and the wing. Standing at the two maps location the dare monument is visible to the south, and just over a dune is the wing to the north. just west of that line, and looking toward the beach is a palisade type wall that surounds the theater. I am going to try and match the image to anything,,, something allong that wall. More news in a few days.

WR, this location has been discussed to death, repeatedly. There are maps galore if you trawl back through the posts. It is at the northwest corner of the Fort Raleigh NHS, just east of the Water Gate at the Elizabethan Gardens.
Past the wooden rail is a steep, brambly descent to the beach interrupted by a rusty fence to keep tourists way from the protected beach. On their lunch break, some EG groundskeepers showed me a way to the beach through the woods where we could slip between fence wires and sink our toes in the sand. So the beach is only as “off-limits” as you let it be.
What really draws me to this particular spot is that there was a path (the Hariot trail) “beckoning” me toward driftwood (a.k.a., the beach), so I took it and wound up at a place where I could quite literally look north at the wing (the Wright Brothers monument being a stylized, art deco wing — see pictures). I feel strongly that if there is a casque on Roanoke, it must be on the very northern tip within spitting distance of the beach itself. There are lots of trees there, so the only place one could look north toward Kitty Hawk is right there at the beach, like at this overlook.
I am not often given to wild unsubstantiated theories (who among us is?), but I make an exception for this spot. It’s an ideal location to bury a casque, and I think whatever sign or info-display those posts supported in the 1980s had some of White’s color maps on it and some supportive text that would finally explain the  “under that which…” stanza that has plagued my dreams for 8 years. If I ever meet St. Peter the first thing I’m asking him is what the hell those words mean.

welcome paul and im looking forword, to the info you get from
your walk around the pk,hopefully something will click and
say dig here

Thomas Harriot (Hariot) was an astronomer who made the first moon maps using a telescope he called a “Dutch trunk.”
This is from one of the sites that discusses the trail:
Perhaps the most intriguing attraction is the most understated – the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail. Named after a scientist on Grenville’s expedition, it’s a nature trail with a twist – signs along the way point out what the explorers survived on in the absence of supplies from England. The trail leads to a peaceful soundside beach, the perfect spot to ponder the challenges the colonists faced

cw0909

welcome paul and im looking forword, to the info you get from
your walk around the pk,hopefully something will click and
say dig here

Thanks for the welcome! I will be in the park until after Easter. So… if you have any ideas to investigate feel free to let me know and I will be your eyes. Best regards!

(Cheers Paul.)
More random ideas…circle and square on the bells…clappers…audience…?
First seen standing, last touched (emotionally)
Still waiting for my copy of the Lost Colony play via an inter-library loan…

forest_blight

I am not often given to wild unsubstantiated theories (who among us is?)

Unknown

Unknown:
Perhaps the most intriguing attraction is the most understated – the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail. Named after a scientist on Grenville’s expedition, it’s a nature trail with a twist – signs along the way point out what the explorers survived on in the absence of supplies from England. The trail leads to a peaceful soundside beach, the perfect spot to ponder the challenges the colonists faced.

lol.
OK, sounds cool. What do you reckon Paul…?
I like the fact he was an astronomer…are these telescopes…?
Your goal
Goal…goalposts…between two posts…?

Being on a coast with possible windy conditions and hurricanes I would also think the bench would have to be attached to the ground somehow. That’s a good thing. There would have to be something in the ground for the bench to connect to. I don’t see them replacing the ground supports just to replace the bench. So we can assume that if that bench has always been there, it’s been in the exact same location for the last 30 years. Lets just hope it’s not on a concrete slab!

I have family going to the Outer Banks today for vacation. They said they would go to Roanoke and dig if I give them a good location. As of now I was going to tell them to dig under the right side of the overlook post where it’s flat. Not sure if Preiss would put it right on the path you use to get to the beach. I’m not too thrilled about the bench being the spot unless someone gives good reason. I also doubt it’s on the beach due to the possibility of water erosion and the casque being lost. If anyone has any other ideas please share. They only have time for one site but even if they don’t find it at least we can possibly rule out a spot.

Deuce

I have family going to the Outer Banks today for vacation. They said they would go to Roanoke and dig if I give them a good location. As of now I was going to tell them to dig under the right side of the overlook post where it’s flat. Not sure if Preiss would put it right on the path you use to get to the beach. I’m not too thrilled about the bench being the spot unless someone gives good reason. I also doubt it’s on the beach due to the possibility of water erosion and the casque being lost. If anyone has any other ideas please share. They only have time for one site but even if they don’t find it at least we can possibly rule out a spot.

The best reason I can come up with is to eliminate possibilities. I strongly believe its under that bench given the posts in the picture. If you are going to dig there, might as well try out all the possibilities. At the very least take tons of pics, especially of the bench. (under it, on the side, the legs, etc) Good luck! you will be making Secret history!!!!

Has that bench always been there? If so, in that same spot? Is it the same bench that has always been there? If its ever been replaced, visual confirmers may be lost.

Deuce

Has that bench always been there? If so, in that same spot? Is it the same bench that has always been there? If its ever been replaced, visual confirmers may be lost.

I suspect from the photos that the bench is fixed on that location with cement or some other anchoring method. It also looks well weathered but nothing is known for sure.

I know benches in some climates get rotated every 10 years.  Outdoor benches get really beat up in coastal conditions.

I use to think the writing on the Wright Monument was quoted exactly in the verse, but after taking a closer look I see only a strong similarity, which doesn’t mean it’s not intended to be evidence of that monument for some particular role it plays in the puzzle, but it does lead me to wonder why Byron wrote it exactly as he did.
I’ve found a road sign at Chicamacomico that says “Dare to dream the impossible dream,” which is clearly inspired by two things: a person (Virginia Dare) + a song (The Quest aka Dream the Impossible Dream). This is among many brilliant moves by Byron Preiss in which he takes a moment to appreciate the meaning of a recognizable line from something he deems fitting for the theme or context of his particular puzzle. In Charleston he uses the Treasure Island line “Of all the romance retold” to effect as a key reference to bird mating call lingo known as “drumming,” because the drum is a key component of that puzzle. In Houston he quotes Melville’s “what we take to be our strongest tower of delight falls gently,” because that page of the book also talks about the Fates (Three weird sisters) as it relates to death. I see a perfect opportunity there for Preiss to have taken only a moment to consider the Atropos sculpture in Herman Park and then pull out a favorite line in a book he once studied by Herman Melville. I think Preiss made a similar, fun connection when he worked his mojo in the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
He already knew the Don Quixote stuff. He recognized the sign along the road and thought of the song. It’s a song about pure determination. It’s about finding the strength to reach the unreachable goal. That kind of meaning aligns precisely with the language used on the Wright memorial, because those brothers accomplished something nobody else before them could, First Flight. It’s an awesome achievement and right up their with the idea of Don Quixote. Being a literary person, Byron had to jump at the opportunity. A couple days ago I posted that link to a 1977 local news article where it mentions both a woman named Baum and the life saving station workers named Midgett. How could Preiss or anyone literary NOT think of the Munchkin’s of Baum’s land of Oz? Another perfect opportunity. The verse and the painting represents the task of leading a searcher to a spot 30 minutes south of Roanoke where a large road sign with the name of John White’s grandaughter Virgina Dare has been cleverly worked into a well recognized song line from 1965: the sign for Mirlo Beach, where we dare to dream the impossible dream [in color]. That’s a thing right? People often talk about dreaming in color or black and white. The word “Mirlo” sounds like the dark-blue colored wine grape, and is also a name for the “blackbird”.
Check this comparison of verse to monument to song:
This is the original Wreck Pole:

MrSeabass

Of course I could be wrong. I’ve cited facts from which I’ve drawn conclusions. I’m brave enough to share an idea.
MrSeabass, you’re intelligence isn’t in question, but rather than cite facts of you’re own, or draw different conclusions from the facts I’ve shared, you convey only as much as to say “I am wrong” or “I am stupid”. I could say you’re also being brave, but in actuality you’re being a typical coward like a lot of people who troll on the internet. They aren’t brave enough to explain their position. They demonstrate disatisfaction at every turn and they distract for their own purposes rather than show the world they are worthy of any respect by making any sense or contribution of their own.

Nope, not mad. Just using sentences and feeding you of my own free will.

regulus

no, the reason I was able to make a trip there was because I was visiting relatives in DC, and seeing the sites.  I don’t know of any parents that would drive their son 1,000 miles to Roanoke to look for a treasure with no cash value.  Which is not the way I see it, it’s just the way someone who isn’t as intrigued by Mr. Preiss’ work may see it.

directed to me?
Not as intrigued by BP’s work..??..  I was the one who got this whole ball of wax rolling again after many years of intrigue.  I started these threads and I am the one who is always saying “Who cares if there is no treasure…we just want to crack this 20+ year old hunt”.

no, the reason I was able to make a trip there was because I was visiting relatives in DC, and seeing the sites.  I don’t know of any parents that would drive their son 1,000 miles to Roanoke to look for a treasure with no cash value.  Which is not the way I see it, it’s just the way someone who isn’t as intrigued by Mr. Preiss’ work may see it.  The treasure, to me, has much value!
Look’s like someone else is going to have to dig this one up!!!
Also, didn’t BP also write comedies???  that might give some support to the “under your butt” theory.
-regulus

Follow-up. No, I don’t think you can stand at the tree’s former location and look over to the wing.

Pass two friends of octave -pass the WBM
In December – they flew in december
Ride the man of oz – cross the Washington Baum bridge
To the land near the window – To Roanoke Island
There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest – There is a road that leads to the Elizabethan Gardens
Where white is in color – there are water color paintings???
With two maps – that area with the bench that has the sign with two maps on it???
After circle and square – 14?  1 and 4??? actual circles and squares???
In July and August – That’s when they landed??? there was a sign saying this???
A path beckons –
To mica and driftwood –
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing – Underneath a flagpole???
Look north at the wing – The WBM is visible
And dig – DIG!!!
To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal. – confirmer
HELP!!!!

Yes reg – that’s the theory. The only significant stumbling blocks are “circle and square” and the final “dig” location.
“Where white is in color” = John White was a Roanoke colonist whose maps and paintings are found everywhere in the park area.
“In July and August” = stated on the first line of the 1896 Virginia Dare marker.

The beach is accessible from the national site – which surrounds the Elizabethan Gardens.  To get to the beach, you can either hop off the Harriot trail (the beach is just over a berm at one curve of the trail), or you can get to the beach from the theater.  Once on the beach, you can walk up the beach, passing by the Gardens (with the closed off gate) and keep going.
When I was there in late March/early April, the beach had a few people close to the Harriot trail approach, but it was empty further up.  I dug (with my hands, no shovel) near a tree near the Garden’s closed off gate.  Every now and then, someone would pop their head up on the Garden side, but because of the scrub & trees, they couldn’t really tell what I was doing.

Well folks, as I live in North Carolina, I am thrilled that there is a high probability of a casque in my neighborhood (two, actually, counting Charleston).
It sounds like everyone has the location pretty well nailed down except for that final, crucial detail. “Under that / Which may be last touched / Or first seen standing.” I agree with the theory that this refers to the tallest thing around, probably a tree that was blown down by one of the many hurricanes that passed through the area in the last quarter-century, and we need to dig on the north side of where it was. If no living tree stands out as tallest, the only way we will ever find this casque is to (a) find photographs of the beach near the Elizabethan Garden or (b) take a metal detector. Option (b) is probably easier, but may require a permit of some sort.
I wonder… is that section of beach approachable from somewhere *other* than the Garden? Somewhere that a guy carrying a shovel wouldn’t look suspicious?

Here is the sign (photo taken June, 1963), for anyone who’s interested…

Although I can’t refute the uses of mica in electronics, it isn’t something that’s exactly common knowledge, either. I don’t think when one says “Mica” one immediately thinks about electronics. That’s just an added bonus.
So I’m kinda iffy on this one.
I liked the idea of maybe “mica” being something
other
than the mineral—maybe initials, a name, etc…..

Thought I would bring this verse up again. A while ago, I thought it had the best chance of being solved since it was a clear walkthrough the Elizabethan Gardens. Just to review:
Pass two friends of octave
In December (Kitty Hawk/Wright Brothers)
Ride the man of oz (take Baum ferry service)
To the land near the window (to Roanoke Island ‘image to verse’)
There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest (Elizabethan garden, plaque at entrance with words “dark forest” to describe garden)
Where white is in color
With two maps (?Map of garden with white color and black background)
After circle and square (pass the sunken garden)
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood (one of the paths to the beach behind the sunken garden)
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing (???)
Look north at the wing
And dig
To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal.
The tricky part of this walkthrough has been the final part. It’s frustrating because there is not much past the sunken garden besides the gate and the gazebo. Neither really seems to fit specifically with last touched or first seen standing. Also, I recall the park had maps (in black and white) in the area but I can’t seem to find one (or two) specifically for the garden. Thoughts?

davinci4

I recall the park had maps (in black and white) in the area but I can’t seem to find one (or two) specifically for the garden.

I kept a local copy of a map of the gardens, and I assume I got the original image from someone here. My file is dated 2014, and it’s going to be a pain to find the original post, and the original link might even be dead by now, so… give me a few mins and I’ll upload my copy…
Here ya go!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 … 769101310/

catherwood

I kept a local copy of a map of the gardens, and I assume I got the original image from someone here. My file is dated 2014, and it’s going to be a pain to find the original post, and the original link might even be dead by now, so… give me a few mins and I’ll upload my copy…
Here ya go!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 … 769101310/

Thanks! ….too bad on this one. Reading some of the other posts, it’s likely is was buried under the watergate and probably got washed away. Some very compelling arguments regarding the gate, one even mentioned an old latch that had a resemblance to the armor in the image (haven’t seen the pick yet). ..wonder if the “wing” may have referred to the gate since it is doubled-winged.

Personally, I wonder if that “By dauntless” is supposed to be taken another way. As in “Near the ‘Dauntless'”.
A Coast Guard ship named “Dauntless” was berthed near Miami until 1993 (in other words, that is where it was when “The Secret” was published).
There was also a WWII warplane called the “Douglas Dauntless”.  I wonder if any are sitting around in some park or air museum?
Now, all we need is a synonym for “inconquerable determination.”  Like, is there a ship called “Resolve”? And where is it?

From over at Tweleve:
Hello all!!! (night owl 2704)
Just thought I would let everyone know that my daughter and a friend will be travelling to Manteo in search of this Casque this weekend.  After much research and thought and more research and thought I think that the Casque is under that marker.  I even spoke with a professor in Greensboro who is an expert in this area (The Lost Colony, Virginia Dare, the Thomas Hariot Trail, etc.) and he agrees with my findings.  He told me that the Hariot Trail was actually “opened” officially over 20 years ago.  About the same time as The Secret was published….keep fingers, toes, eyes crossed.  We need all the luck we can get.  They are leaving for the area tomorrow afternoon and will probably start hunting Saturday.  I’ll keep everyone posted.  Let’s hope for the best.  Vitta
Back to top

Paul Kitchen

I will return to Fort Raleigh in April of 2013 and pick up where I left off. I know that the Park Service will be getting some ground penetrating radar equipment in the next year.

Now you’re talking. Enjoy your wanderings and get yrself back here in 2013…

Verse 11
Pass two friends of octave
In December
Ride the man of oz
To the land near the window
There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest
Where white is in color
With two maps
After circle and square
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Look north at the wing
And dig
To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal.
“After circle and square” may refer to the overhead view of the area.  There’s definitely a circle.
http://www.nps.gov/wrbr/indepth/wrightmap.htm

cool!  amazing how the authors seem to have anticipated the google age, in which simply substituting an i for a u makes ‘dauntless and inconquerable’ almost impossible to find – now we’re getting somewhere. . . could this be the circle, square, July, and August (7th and 8th Ave.)?

Unknown

Unknown:
With two maps
After circle and square
In July and August
http://www.nps.gov/wrbr/indepth/wrightmap.htm

it has been suggested the circle and square refer to the layout of the garden, but July & August.
I dont see how it applies but both July & August hold great meaning with the Elizabethan Garden…
…….On July 13th, 1966 the new Gatehouse is completed and opened as the new entrance to The Elizabethan Gardens.
…….On August 18th, 1955 The Elizabethan Gardens were dedicated and opened to the public.  The Elizabethan Gardens has a ceremony and formally opens on August 18, 1960 Virginia Dare’s birthday.

“To the land near the window”
another definition of window: A means of access or observation: St. Petersburg was Peter the Great’s window onto the Baltic. Maybe this area is a window to the ocean?

our window?
“From here, the piney path leads directly to the shore where a delightful gate opens to the sea. “
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/garde … aspx?id=16

it was our hope that one could see the Wright Memorial wing from that shore, or at least the beacon on its top at night.  The verse doesn’t say that one needs to see the “wing”, though, just to turn to face its direction.

The “gate” is on the shoreline facing the barrier islands and by the looks of a map at expediamaps.com, depending on how tall the monument is, I suppose it may be conceivable to see it.

m220m

I work on Roanoke Island, and used to work for the Elizabethan Gardens. I think the “last touched…first seen” clue refers to the “Croatan Tree” that used to stand in the gardens.

I like this.  If one stands at the site where the Croatan tree was, can one see the wing?

I saw this on the tweleve site posted from OBXMom….thought it was interesting.
http://tweleve.org/verses/16281-verse-11-a-4.html
I work on Roanoke Island, and used to work for the Elizabethan Gardens. I think the “last touched…first seen” clue refers to the “Croatan Tree” that used to stand in the gardens.
When the colonists disappeared, the only clue left behind was the word “Croatan” carved into a tree (hence, the “last touched”) The tree used to stand in the gardens until a storm damaged it about ten (?) years ago. Believe it or not, a tree service was called in, and the tree was cut down, and CHIPPED!!! (You would think the part with the carving would have been saved and preserved in a display!) The storm was before my time at the gardens, but several people showed me where it used to be.
I love the idea about July and August and the statues. The statues are located in the “sunken garden.” The “sunken garden” is the central formal garden. It is a large square, with a circular fountain at the center. The statues are in the four quadrants between the fountain, and the boundaries of the square. One path leads directly towards the water. Two other paths go sideways and then both go towards the water. The fourth path leads away. I personally, have examined all three paths where they meet the water. From all three areas, you can look north and see the wing (the Wright Brothers monument across the water). I couldn’t find any distinguishing marker from which to dig! At the time, I was an employee, and digging was quite frequently in my job description. (But if I’m not mistaken, in NC, all beaches are public property to the high tide mark.)
The only concearn I have is that there has been alot of erosion over the last ten years. I confirmed this with a second generation gardner who used to work there.

Thank you m220m.
That is very interesting indeed!
AP

Ha ha!  That is too funny FB – most of my friends and family already give me that look when I tell them what I’m doing.  I’m hoping to avoid it from total strangers.  I really admire your brass.
I’m curious what protocol and channels everyone would follow for digging here given this is a state park?  Anyone know if the Elizabethan Gardens is privately owned?  What are the rules on that and does anyone think this might keep a casque from being buried there?
If it’s already been discussed, I’d appreciate a direction to the link, thanks!

Wait… making me do the work is a good plan?? I thought this was
armchair
treasure hunting!
I drove all the way out to Roanoke Island to take pictures and got about 50 mosquito bites to show for it.
Your turn!

Wow, 50 mosquito bites is worth a medal in my book – and a casque!  You’ve certainly earned it!  Maybe it was the skeeters that just carried the lost colony away one day…
Forest Blight, I really enjoyed looking at your photos and it is thoughtful of you to share your detective work.  I can practically see myself walking down the trail and landing on the beach now thanks to your efforts.  I hope you were able to get a rough idea where those old trees were standing on the beach, they still seem like a good lead next time you go.  If I recall you were working with the gardeners there.  Is the rest of the park service staff working with you as well on this?
Was really hoping to get a better idea from the photos where else to look but it seems almost anything stationary like the beach gate and garden statues have concrete pads beneath them not conducive to digging.  Mica makes me think of radio towers, I wonder if there are any in sight?  I’d sure like to have a contact with someone there at some point but I hesitate because I don’t know who best to talk to over the phone to ask such zany questions about the site.
FB, you were there in 2006, right?  I have a feeling some things have already changed since then.  Here are two photos of what looks like the interior of the earthworks.  One is from 2003 the other is 2007.  Looks like they took down signs?  I thought your image 0836 was of this sign at first, but it seems shorter.
Kato, I’ll bet you’ve seen alot of such changes over the years.

Forgot to add, it’s entirely possible the sign is just around the corner in the bottom photo and it’s just a perspective difference I’m seeing.  That’s the difficulty of hunting this way.  It’s also a good example of something I’d like to call and ask a regular contact, that and a zillion other things, so I don’t mislead anyone.

ferrymaiden – what casque? I never found a casque! Hope springs eternal…
I think the two photos you show were taken with the same perspective (see the trees in the distance?), and that the sign is missing in 2007. I don’t remember if it was there in 2006, and I can’t tell if that sign is the one I photographed.
I did buddy up with a couple of park employees while I was there, but we didn’t communicate afterwards. It was fun at the time – they got excited about the hunt, and showed me a secret way to the beach from the Gardens that (mostly) avoided gates, brambles, and fences. At Fort Raleigh, I spoke with the park ranger on duty (Rob Bollings of the NPS), but I doubt he remembers me. I also spoke with a lady at the Elizabethan Gardens who gave me some very skeptical “who is this nutcase” looks as she smiled and nodded.

Dark forest
Does that simply refer to Roanoke?  Roan – dark (tan) color + “oak”?
Malted, that pole is leaning, what if that is because BP dug a big hole there!?
What if,
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing,
Is having to do with ‘touched with a ten foot pole?’ or ‘reach out and touch someone’ might fit the pole or telephone idea?

Does that simply refer to Roanoke?  Roan – dark (tan) color + “oak”?
Well certainly the next lines do where white is in color…
with two maps after circle and square.
Also it says look north at the wing. not toward the wing.
So from wherever you are you need to see “the wing” whatever that is…

I imagined the wing as the soth pointing part of the telephone pole.

JoshCornell

already travelled there…it was at the tree on the raised bit on the right hand side of the beach at the end of the rightmost path at the end of dare avenue leading to the beach. (and would have been on the west side).

I’m pretty sure you mean left side.

interesting tidbits from a national geographic story back in March…
A group of archaeologists and historians met in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, earlier this month to launch the First Colony Foundation to raise money for new archaeological excavations in the Fort Raleigh park. They plan to start digging into one of the United States’ most enduring historical puzzles early this summer.
…i wonder if they went through with the excavation?
In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand. (Park Service staff did not excavate the objects, but suspect they could be related to Hariot’s work.)
…could it be?? maybe?? nahhhhh… but it would be interesting to see if we could get ahold of those gpr results in details.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … olony.html
travwv – any updates or developments in your search? After reviewing this thread and the verse I’m quite convinced that the casque is there (somewhere in the Fort Raleigh Park near the gardens)

Fenix

If anybody knows of a place where there is a group of people working together to solve these puzzles without all the drama, please let me know. I’m interested if you will have me.

Well said.
If you find that place, please pm me. I would love for the opportunity to join.

the word inconquerable…oh wait youre right it is un…doesn’t change anything…just reinforces the reading already espoused.
makes the clue way cooler though lol.

JoshCornell

the word inconqurable…

Bullshit artist

JoshCornell

the word inconquerable…oh wait youre right it is un…doesn’t change anything…just reinforces the reading already espoused.
makes the clue way cooler though lol.

Actually, and to the earlier point it says “Unconquerable”

dude you need to take a nap or lay off the fucking meth…youve gone full blown troll. doesnt look good on you dawg. if you think i feel bad or guilty or wrong for pointing out how much of a birdass you are…well, i want you to know…i dont. at all.

dizalot

Actually, and to the earlier point it says “Unconquerable”

i love how you read that sentence before posting *bravo*.

JoshCornell

dude you need to take a nap or lay off the fucking meth…youve gone full blown troll. doesnt look good on you dawg. if you think i feel bad or guilty or wrong for pointing out how much of a birdass you are…well, i want you to know…i dont. at all.

Who’s the troll here?

you are gman. you are. my existence isnt trolling you.

JoshCornell

you are gman. you are. my existence isnt trolling you.

Okay, tough guy. If this is true, stop claiming that you have solved everything and produce a casque. Then your bullshit just might be accepted on this forum.

Fenix

Should we be paying more attention to inconquerable? I have a very hard time believing that this was just a “typo”. Think about Byron’s accolades, etc. Would he really screw up this word that is carved in stone? Inconquerable is not even a word….it had to be intentional.
Should we be looking for a clue in conquerable? Era, queen, on erable, etc etc etc….

its written on the west side of the monument in kdh, and so tells you to dig on west side of the tree, at the end of right path at end of dare ave (now overturned)….like ive been saying…

Goldengate

It began the day after the Expedition Unknown segment aired and Josh arrived claiming to have solved the puzzle in a week. Yes, there have been other savants who go on about miraculously “solving” one or more casque locations — but considering Josh’s five accounts (three purged and banned), he has posted over 3,000 times… in ten months.
I’m as guilty as many others who have repeatedly called him out on the trolling, but that tone and tenor he brought here when he joined was the beginning of the slide. Those 3,000 posts (roughly 2,000 mercifully purged by our moderator) have buried much of what was good about this nearly 20 year old forum, which IMO remains the most important resource on The Secret.
You’re not alone, Fenix, we’ve lost several great key searchers, veteran and newcomers alike who are done with his trolling and bullying and have found other forums like Facebook where Josh has been permanently blocked. Those forums are not perfect, they still attract the “I solved it all in one day” crowd… but nothing approaches the toxicity he’s brought to bear on this group.
I don’t think all is lost, I think the vigorous debate, semi-respectful virtual hair pulling and fair discussion can return. But as long as this troll continues to swamp every conversation, I think we all know that simply won’t be the case. Until something can be done about it, the forum has become Josh’s personal sounding board — which is exactly what he wants… and that’s a shame.

Agree GG.

fox

Then you definitely can’t go wrong with a hot tub full of margaritas
wheeeeeeeeee

aahhh
have a return to work, next week, super lght duty, hoping 4hr days
therapy starts soon, hoping to be on the road again, o to speak

Cleveland Steve

Hi all, first post. I found what I think is a new reference to “July and August.” This YouTube video shows a sign directly outside the Waterside Theater with “July and August” on it. This new information probably won’t help in finding the casque, but you never know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rED8Dl_xk

Hey Cleveland Steve! Another fellow Clevelander here! I just got re-interested in The Secret after we decided on going back to the Outer Banks for vacation in 2017. I was on the board a while ago (10+ years) but just came back. I also just got the book for a penny on Amazon. It’s not what I was expecting at all.
But anyway, I started researching this one again, and I apologize if this has been discussed already. Carolina Designs realty has a blog on their web site about OBX history. I e-mailed the author and asked him if the Washington Baum Bridge was so named in 1981. He said it was named thus in ’62, so “Ride the Man of Oz,” IMO, refers to the bridge… Or…
I also contacted the NC Transportation Authority about ferries named Baum, and there indeed is one that is still in service, and has been since the ’70s. And it used to go to Roanoke Island.

Just another dumb thought to toss out in the mix.  Could the “man of oz” be Frank Oz of Muppets fame?  Watched the end of The Muppet Movie with my son and the name Oz in credits made me think of this hunt.  Think he may also have been the voice of Yoda.  Oh well…back to the hunt.

forgive me but i am on my cell right now. i think the months have been explained. as for the wing, i believe the wright memorial is north of our bench. the treasure may not be directly under the bench but i would be willing to bet it is nearby.

i believe the casque is hidden at the water gate
my thinking is
Pass two friends of octave In December
wright bros
Ride the man of oz
baum bridge
To the land near the window
roanoke near window in p3
There’s a road that leads to  Dark forest
the path after the parking lot, with
the start of the interpretive signs
Where white is in color
john white
With two maps
sign that has map of gardens and map of fort site and paths/trails
After circle and square
this area
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey11.html
In July and August
when the play plays
A path beckons To mica and driftwood
the path to water gate # 13
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html
Under that
may be the gate its self, as it does not open
at least it didnt use to
Which may be last touched
the water gate as everyone tries to open it/me included
Or first seen standing
the water gate
Look north at the wing And dig
just in the direction of the wing
and i think that would be the left hand pillar of water gate
or the right pillar under the gate
and under the gate near pillar/s is where to dig
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey13.html
i could never figure out what, the keys were for till now,
keys open locks, such as the one on the water gate,
and where the jewel is in pic3 looks a lot like the
entrance gate
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey2.html
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey1.html
whoops forgot a link,you can see where water gate and theater are
http://www.icw-net.com/aa_SiteObjects/a … dsmap1.jpg

If the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens is the “window” in I3
After circle and square…A path beckons To mica and driftwood
#9 the Mount and Well Head is a circle with #11 the Sunken Garden being a square
the path #13 the Walk to Water Gate
from
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html
If Walk to Water Gate is the one with the bench at the end that we’ve seen in several posts, then the theater is not North it would be East.
The wing to the north would likely be Colington Island.
It looks rather like a bat wing,
and pairing this v with I3, there is a bat shape with one wing under the wrist of the arm on the left side of the image.

I’ve been contemplating the months mentioned in the verse.
I’ve been wondering why December and July & August are mentioned but not other months.
Thinking about the months, December is at the end of the year and in winter or a cold time, where July & August are near the middle of the year and in the summer or a warm time.
What else ties in with these opposite times of the year…
Then it hit me… Birds migrate South for the cold months and North for the warm months.
Then I look at the phrases containing the months and the surrounding lines as directions.
Pass two friends of octave  (pass the wright brothers historical area)
In December      (heading South to, or South of this area)
Ride the man of oz To the land near the window    (Cross the bridge with the name Baum)
After circle and square (Elizabethan Garden’s  Mount&Well Head (circle) and Sunken Garden (square))
In July and August  (head North to , or North of this area)
A path beckons To mica and driftwood (the Walk to Water Gate (path))

slappybuns

and i like that bench that someone had posted, because it reminds me of the old riddle about what do you have when you sit down but lose when you stand up……. (your lap)

Under that  Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Look north at the wing
And dig
I would poke under and to the north side of that bench.

i think that bench has been dug around many times by now cormac
that’s a different look at “december” cormac, pretty neat
but i’m still convinced that’s for highway #12, and “july and august” are summer months when they only do the “lost colony theater”
cw’s “scene”……….just makes me feel, that’s it……somewhere around the theater, probably behind it on the beach side. i hope, i hope, i hope

“That which may be last touched
Or first seen standing….”
That sounds like something tall !
The memorial…a lighthouse…
a bridge..an arch?
Just thinking out loud here…
AP

Lots of great pix and information FB…thanks!  It seems quite apparent we have the correct “general” location (Roanoke) and now have to hone in on the target…..Eliz Gardens or the fort?  hmmmmm.
One idea I have had and seem to keep coming back to when thinking of
“Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing”
is a tree…..probably the tallest of several trees in that area and the farthest away.  When approaching the trees….you will, of course, see the tallest one first.  Just another twist on this part of the V.
thanks again for the walking tour FB.

Yes, that’s my favorite theory too (hence the “tree” postcard) but photographs of the beach area are scarce. The only tall trees on that part of the beach are pines, and they go up and come down quickly, as trees go. There are cypress trees elsewhere on the island.

who are the “not conquerable” ones?……the indians?
to achieve, to a chief……….lol
maybe indian chief manteo, instead of chief wingina or wanchese
has this one been shown b4:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jps246/3563412162/
it has “july and august” on it
are the trees that had the letters “cro” and “croatoan” on them  still around somewhere?……last touched
“The only clue to the fate of the “Lost Colony” was the word “CROATAN” carved in the bark of a tree near the gate of the fort, and the letters “CRO” carved on another tree stripped of bark. What had happened to the colonists? “
http://www.trivia-library.com/a/mysteri … rginia.htm
and what happened to the trees?

The 3 markers on the tombstone ->
-Markers are circled shape
-Markers A and B are together.
-Markers ABC form an arch looking down
The 3 markers on image 3 (tombstone) ->
-Markesr are circled shape too
-Markers A’ and B’ are together.
-Markers A’B’C’ form an arch looking Up
I’m trying to figure out what is in the other side of the tombstone…
In the border of the cemetery are a bluff…
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal.
Make sense to me if we have to dig on a bluff (or close to)

I keep hearing “inside the gate” and “outside the gate”, but doesn’t the v say “under”
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Having to dig under that fence from either side with the fence locked would certainly require
“dauntless and inconquerable Determination”

To the land near the window
I have not found this line discussed much. I see this as a way marker for Roanoke Island. So many others are mentioning other areas as alternatives. I don’t see it as possible. Many searchers before me have studied these images and verses for years and years. Their hard work cannot merely be tossed aside.
Here’s my view (see what I did there?) of this line:
The window is the Oregon outlet which is where the boats go from the Sound to the deep ocean waters.
“To the land” refers to Roanoke Is”land”.
This line lets us know that we need to go to Roanoke Island which is near the Oregon inlet.
I bring this up because others are talking about the possibility of the casque being buried on the Outer Banks at Nags Head or the Wright Bros. monument. Keep this in mind, the lands of the Outer Banks aren’t land “near” the window,….they are lands that create the “window”. The island of Roanoke is “near” the window while the outer banks isles ARE the window.
Thoughts?

erexere

Jockey’s Ridge State Park
, established by Baum in the mid ’70’s seems like a good fit for “Ride the man of oz”.

Jockey’s Ridge is at Milepost 12 on the South Croatan Highway (“In December…”)

splumer

Jockey’s Ridge is at Milepost 12 on the South Croatan Highway (“In December…”)

if I’m not mistaken I think that the point of saying December here is helpful in connecting the first flight date to the puzzle.

the last thing you could touch would be the entrance gate, (when you leave)
and the first thing you see when you get there (standing, getting out of the car)
right?
possibly, lol

thanks FB ill put them in a photo program, and see what i can see
you wouldnt happen to remember, a date on them would you
slappy thought of that, would require some stealth
you guys got that bail $$, right  :rofl
sorry didnt mean to post map here, if you want ill move it later

The Gazebo photos date to April, 1981, when it was built. The EG plans probably date to 1952-1953.

cw, circle  queen elizabeth too,  just in case
you know, what with the “order of the garter”  and all
i like that, “coat of arms/armor” idea, as in the image, it could be a “coat”, lol
his right finger is pointing, so i would check that side, “inside” the gate, don’t you think?
when is it you get to go?  soon now right?

Glossiphoniidae

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the “CRO” tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly “under that”. Too simple?

Simple is good! Where is the CRO tree prop located? I’ve seen close-up shots of it, like the one below from Flickr, but then I can’t find it when I see
the big, open shots of the theater
. Is it something on wheels that gets rolled out for certain scenes, or is it hidden by other scenery most of the time?

forest_blight

Yes. Consult my post in this thread on Dec. 23, 2005, which comes close to answering the question. Miraculously, all my images and maps still seem to be active even though geocities folded some time ago.

Thanks, FB. As many times as I have read over this thread, I don’t think I went back that far. Glad to know no wrenches have been thrown. I was feeling a bit distraught.
Back to happily speculating and contemplating.

Good point.

http://chicamacomico.net/The-Mirlo-Rescue.htm
Im thinking July and August = Ceasar = Sea Sir.  Was it that the six recipients of the Grand Cross (American version) be called Sir or Knights?

WhiteRabbit

Here’s Paul’s pic of that sign.

I just noticed (put 2 + 2 together) the title of this sign is
Four Hundred Years of Coastal Geography
, and the text on the sign is marking it from 1590. Does that mean that the sign wouldn’t have been in place until 1990?

WhiteRabbit

Good point.

Do we have any confirmation to say otherwise?

maltedfalcon, I’ve been thinking about the use of the word ‘ride’ in ‘ride the man of oz’ and it seemed most natural to apply it to some vehicle like a bus, ferry, or train.  The fact is the ferry system’s originator was T.A. Baum.  The Bridge sharing the same name as that is as applicable although one doesn’t “ride a bridge” itself.  My interpretations are only guesses, but I do like the “beast of burden” idea as it identifies with a pack animal, which would suit a horse or “nag” relation along with the image 3 horse shaped head in armor relating also to Nags Head, which fills the gap between Kill Devil Hills and Roanoke.
The point of Pea Island National Wildland Refuge hasn’t really been brought to light as well as people are trying to report.  All thing’s considered, Pea Island and Roanoke aren’t very far from each other.  Either spot might be on the way to the other or both might just be points of interest along a greater path.  This is largely uncertain ground.  We need to study the verse much more closely and understand the themes, if any, involved.  So far, I’m probing a few ideas, 1) telephones, 2) Wright(s) – Orville/Wilbur and possibly a lateral Civil War Colonel named Augustus Wright and perhaps something to do with the homonym “right”, 3) flight – also refers to fleeing and “Refuge” with regard to the Pea Island area means “a place to flee back to”, 4) Knight – heroism, 5) freedom – keys.
The line “where white is in color” seems surely about John White, but there is something about the use of the word ‘color’ as it could possibly refer to a “skin complexion” or “covering/concealment”.  Anyone have any guesses where something white is concealed?  Or perhaps a distinction between the seasonal uniform colors for the Navy where there is a contrast between Summer and Winter (possibly a reason for using December in one line and July and August in another).

Glossiphoniidae

Do we have any confirmation to say otherwise?

Yes. Consult my post in this thread on Dec. 23, 2005, which comes close to answering the question. Miraculously, all my images and maps still seem to be active even though geocities folded some time ago.

erexere

Maybe youre on to something.
After circle and square, could refer to the eye, which is a circular view, to the glass or map which is a square view.

Help me here. What would you suggest I look for. I allways feel that each clue needs to lead to a physical thing or another clue that leads to another clue or physical thing. And, on and on and on……

shecrab

They also resemble a mast

One of the signs is for “firre trees fit for masts of ships, some very tall and great”.

I see why people like that sign with its two maps, including one by White.
Can I just confirm, that Paul’s photo…
…shows this specific sign…? (There’s no other copy…?)
And can we be sure that those sawn-off stumps didn’t look the same in BP’s day…? Maybe the picture shows them as they are.
Are there any other distinguishing features…? Fences, poles, steps, wires…?
It would be interesting to get a better overview of this area, and that railing. Perhaps it has goalpost potential (“your goal”). Is there any way you could dig under it…? You could make “last touched” / “first seen standing” fit just about anything you wanted really. The log that lies across it would be “first seen standing”, and I’ve always had an idea that “last touched” might be a pun on “touched by a last” (as used for shoemaking, see below), which could be leather, wood…might make more sense if the museum had an exhibit about footwear or something.
A key is hanging off this unidentified shape. A
last
…?
As Thomas explained, “There is Shoemake well knowen, and vsed in England for blacke”

erexere

Yeah, the new flood of pictures and research is great.  I tried to understand the connections to that area better but I cant get convinced.  Its not that i have other ideas getting in the way.  The only part that i like is the bead on Kill Devil Hills FB talked about.
My big question is where does the window come in?  The window behind the cruciform has to fit into place.  Any windows around there?  Maybe a little roadside vendor of antique junk or a museum building that looks out east towards KDH?

I went over to Jockey Ridge State Park the other day. I found a referance to mica that might help. The sand all around the OBX is filled with minerals including a soft type of mica called Biottie. That might lock in the mica and driftwood. With the mica refering to sand. I also looked up mica and noted that the Latin form means grain perhaps as in a grain of sand.

Paul Kitchen

With the mica refering to sand.

erexere

My big question is where does the window come in?

Unknown

Unknown:
The name of muscovite comes from Muscovy-glass, a name formerly used for the mineral because of its use in Russia for windows.

I’m sure that’s right.
A path beckons
To m
ica
Tom – Thomas Hariot…?
Here’s the White map from that sign. Maybe we’ve overlooked an image match.
Brainstorming…
Ride the man of oz
To the land near the window
We know this means Roanoke, but perhaps it means more. The “man of oz” is Baum, from “tree”.
I keep thinking “mica” might connect with “window”. “Common mica” is also called “Muscovite”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite
Does this sign have a glass front…? Looks like it might…
Could “the land near the window” mean the ground near a glass-fronted sign…? Does the “two maps” sign look like it might ever have been glass-fronted…?

Maybe youre on to something.
After circle and square, could refer to the eye, which is a circular view, to the glass or map which is a square view.

Fantastic work Paul, thanks for the pictures.  It is great having feet on the ground at this location.  Now, if only, you could poke around and see what “used to be” on those 2 cut down posts at the overlook.  This sure looks like a prime spot for a casque.l

Paul Kitchen

I looked at every power pole along Dare Raod and inside the park. No glass insulators. That does not mean that back in 1981/2 there were none, just not today!

Unknown

Unknown:
the gate swung on its rusty hinges. Being at last touched

Hmm, that’s a shame. Still, with all those hanging wires…
…and cross-like shapes…
I still like this idea. Any telegraph poles with diagonal supporting struts…? Are there any telegraph poles at all visible along the Hariot trail…?
Here’s another possible telephone hint.
(Erexere – don’t tell anyone, but I got that idea from P179. Check it out.)
Taking another look at that top image, another thing that strikes me is how it resembles a series of uprights with a loop on top, and the key is one of them. Could be telegraph poles, or something completely different, like the posts of a wire fence…or even that water gate.
–
Great Expectations
First seen standing would be “gait”. (Very random, just throwing it out there.)
It’s great to get a picture of it from the other side at last, and I see it has a wire fence.
I suppose you could look for a match in the brickwork. (Not saying there is one.)

WhiteRabbit

Four21thrasher posted up a comparison between the Hariot Trail and a shape in the image, but on the only other map I’ve seen it looks different.
Has it changed, or is one of the maps wrong…?  ???
(It might be interesting to see what is at the point where Four21thrasher’s map intersects with the line it’s hanging from.)

The image on the left is exactly like that in the current park information. I do not know where the image on the right came from, however, it is a better representation of how the trail actually lies on the land. I think you are right that The Secret image does look like one or both of those pictured, but more like that on the left. I examined Harriot Trail again today. It does seem to loop, coming out at about the same point. I will be in the achives on Wed. so I will look for older documents, from 1981/2, that might show the trail then. I will also be looking at the armor that is there. Apparently, some armor was on display in the late 1970’s/early 80’s. I have lots of work to do! Best regards to all!

erexere

Just did a search to check, nobody seems to have mentioned yet that the image looks similar to a man in a chariot.  C_hariot trail?

I have been asked to post photographs of the wall around the Eleizabethan Garden. They are posted @
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 … 176347805/
When facing the entance to the garden the wall extends out in both directions the left side runs about fourty feet then turns 45 degrees back away from the front wall. It is plain and can only be accessed on the outside of the gardens. The wall extending to the right also runs abour fourty feet before turning right at 90 degress and extends out about sixty feet. Both sides of the wall can bee accessed without entering the gardens. The right side walls include the iron gate and wall plaque that has the qoute concerning the “Dark Forest”.

Four21thrasher posted up a comparison between the Hariot Trail and a shape in the image, but on the only other map I’ve seen it looks different.
Has it changed, or is one of the maps wrong…?  ???
(It might be interesting to see what is at the point where Four21thrasher’s map intersects with the line it’s hanging from.)

…random brainstorming…
I wouldn’t have thought it would be something that could be too easily repositioned.
b
e
l
ast
t
ouched
o
r first
first letters…blto…bolt…?
I think someone previously suggested the CRO tree…maybe just any tree though, referencing this mystery…now a beam, or log (goal=a log)…

its a seat
if you were sitting the seat was the last thing you touched when you get up
and its the first thing thats uncovered when you stand up

The bench?

In response the random brainstorming: you cannot seriously pick out only a few words and anagram their first letters. That isn’t logical or sensible. As tempting as it is to do that, it’s so random and can be manipulated so much that it makes it almost impossible NOT to find something you want in any group of sentences.
In further response:
That which may be last touched:
the end of the trail–it’s touched last because you’re there at the location you need to be at.
or first seen standing:
Meaning you cannot see it SITTING DOWN. You would only see it if you STAND UP. Something that is in a depression or hollow–or behind something ELSE.

fox

The bench?

Nice job Maltedfalcon.  I see a bench next to that dock just past the last telephone pole on Myrna Peters Rd. in Rodanthe.

To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal.
To achieve, is about succeeding.  A “dark horse” is an unlikely success.
A goal,
Looks a lot like the lookout I’ve been proposing.  It’s specifically designed for practice drills that require the simulation of a ships mast.  The ships mast with sail is alternatively referred to as a “wing”.  Looking north at this wing and digging seems like a really good idea.

Fact checking and follow up on the Manteo Weather Tower, it was ran by a man named Alpheus Drinkwater and he was responsible for broadcasting the first telegraph of the First Flight.
We have a fairly good case for telephone poles given the perfect match of the object on the line in image 3 with the glass insulators for lines.  Combined with the Wright Bros. clue at the beginning we might have good cause to look for a specific telephone pole.  The large pole used in the Beecher Buoy drills looks very telephone pole like, which is why I’m inclined to consider it a candidate.  I didn’t know until yesterday that it was regularly used for drills in July and August that rigged it with lines.

forest_blight

A few years ago I found the name of a summer employee who helped clear the Hariot Trail in the late 1970s, but it was such a common name (I forget what it was; it’s in the archived posts here) there was no hope of locating him. The park had no records of what was there. So unless we locate someone’s old vacation photos of that area, there’s no telling. no one buries posts like that for no reason — they must have held a sign of some sort.

Forest, do you still have the pics you took of the site? I followed the links from 07 or so and they were no longe working.
Another question, has anyone really taken shovel to that bench? It would be the most viable spot right now but then again few of us have been there.

To the land near the window
land: come to shore
window: a time period for beginning and finishing something
I’m still biased towards a Rodanthe solution, but even so this makes for a good example.  The rescue drills performed in July and August at Chicamacomico LSS, called a Beecher Bouy, involves firing a small Lyle Gun which sends a rope line out over the shore to a ship in distress.  During this window of rescue passengers are brought to shore.

There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest
There’s not much alternate word meaning to do on the first part, except “leads” could be an indicator of something like the tethers attached to the head of a horse: 1. A long narrow leather strap attached to each end of the bit of a bridle and used by a rider or driver to control a horse or other animal. Often used in the plural.  If this line is indicating a horse related idea, then let’s consider the following line and consider where in horse related terminology the word ‘dark’ or ‘forest’ might come into play.
‘dark horse’ comes up in the dictionary as a little-known person or thing that emerges to prominence, especially in a competition of some sort or a contestant that seems unlikely to succeed.
The only road that I can see fitting the picture is that of highway 12 through Nags Head Woods.
In consideration of the choice to use ‘dark’ if it meant utilizing it as a hint to anything befitting an unlikely success, I would think it applies to the doubts of whether the Wright Bros. could fly their craft, or perhaps the story of the Mirlo Rescue, an incredible rescue that achieved the highest of honors in our nations history.  The “Mighty Midgetts”: midget as a reference to an usually small person works well with the term ‘dark horse’.  There are other unlikely yet great historic events related to the Outer Banks.  I happen to think the Life Saving Stations are the best candidates, specifically the Chicamacomico location, for this verse/image pairing.
An afterthought, it might be worth mentioning that the Munchkins of Oz were portrayed by midget actors.  I would consider whether the reason for mentioning the man of Oz is the result of Preiss considering that we should travel the Washington-Baum bridge or is it his Oz-based take on the more historically significant Mirlo Rescue.  Figure in the alternate meaning if the word ride and its well known that midget’s are often pelted or ridiculed.

Found a 1956 Fort Raleigh National Park Service manual on ebay – bought it on the off chance of some useful information.  No luck, but there were a couple of pictures.  The granite marker (which is clearer than the one I posted a year ago), and a 1956 map of the area.
I was really hoping to see something interesting at the beach where the pier supports (or whatever they are) are showing up now.  But nothing was noted on the map in 1956, so can’t tell if there was anything there in 1982, or what is remaining in 2006.  And we thought a 24 year old mystery was tough, try 50 years!
I’ll be scanning in the manual over the next week – shoot me a line if you’d like a pdf of it.  Or even the larger marker picture.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up already, but that marker above does say “in July – August,” which is in Verse 11.

Unknown

Unknown:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up already

That would be nodon

I still think we need to find something concrete (not literally) to tie in the possible P with the locale.
on another note however…and getting back to the P’s somehow linking with one another….did you know that the 1st European to sail to the shores of NC (Cape Fear) was none other than Giovanni da Verrazzano….whom the Verrazano Narrows Bridge was named after…

In researching some ideas about V11, I discovered some intresting facts about the Loblolly Pine tree, which is found in abundance within the National Historic Site, as well as on Roanoke Island:
The Loblolly Pine is a pioneer tree, meaning it is one of the first trees to grow in a field.
FIRST SEEN STANDING
The bark is thick,scaly, and dark grey:  It closely resembels the scaly art work of the pedestal, wall, and floor in P 3.
http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLand … y_pine.htm
Perhaps the casque is buried under a Loblolly tree that
MAY BE LAST TOUCHED
as you leave the forest for the beach, whereupon you would have an unobstructed view of the “wing” to the north.
Also, this would coincide with BP’s penchant for burying the casques under or near trees, as is strongly suspected.

Like this one?
That’s a very good idea, Kato. I’ll tuck that away.

Exactly so.  That particular tree is a very good candidate. On the edge of the forrest, and not quite on the beach.

forest_blight

This V vexes me more than any other. . What could be “last touched or first seen standing” at that lookout? Well, this bench:
If you read V11 to mean “Under the object that, upon standing up, is the first thing made visible and the last thing you touch,” it’s the bench.
Thoughts?

I’m with you.  When this locale first popped up on these boards some time ago, I liked it.  Liked it then, like it now.  It is indeed remote enough for BP to do his thing w/out nosey people wondering what the heck he was doing…..and… to me, it just LOOKS like a spot BP would choose.
do we have a definite P for this V yet?  any of our non-committed P’s have what looks like a bench in them?  I say, if anyone is close enough to this site, do some serious poking (if not digging) around this site.  Next person there should at least take several photos of the area looking in every direction.
casque #3, here we come……

Fox, I am 100% sure that P3 is the proper one for this V. “The land by the window” being the outline of Roanoke Island beside the window in P3 nails it.

ahh, land by the window…cool tie in.  always thought this referred to something near the actual site, not in linking P with V.  Time to go over this image with a finer toothed comb and see if anything stands out.  All other P’s have had either a famous building (both Cleveland & Chicago had one, as well as the Milwaukee City Hall) but where is this one?  Cleveland and Chicago also had very prominent as well as exact items depicted in the P that was at or on the path to the casque.  Does this P have anything “exact” from this site, the park this site is located or even the nearest city?  We have to find it….

yes, it is covered by many plants

Reg:  Are you saying that you can only search and find the casque in December because thats when you can see the Wing from the bench?  Have you visited the site in December to verify this? I doubt that this casque or any other was only ment to be discovered during a tiny window of the year.  Personally, I think the reference to December in the verse ties in nicely with the Wright Brothers flight on December 17, 1903. Does anybody know positively that you can see the Wing from the bench in December?  I know for a fact that you CANNOT see the Wing from the bench during the summer months.

My memory is already hazy, but I don’t think it’s possible even to see the water from where that bench is, much less the memorial. Even when you’re right at the beach, you really have to squint and know where to look.

Glossiphoniidae

I found Ken, and am currently having exchanges with his friend, a ranger at the park until 2006. Will have news regarding the chopped-off posts today, I think!
Update (I’ll keep probing):
The lopped off posts are supports for the old trail bench, which was just a halved log placed horizontally between the posts. They probably date from the 1960s.
The present teak bench was a gift to the park from Colonial Dames or Colonial Daughters or some group like that. There was a little plaque on it, but the lettering may be worn away now. They also gave the bench at the beginning of the trail.
There was probably a trail marker at this spot earlier. There were little aluminum signs with screen printed text. The message was probably something similar to what is there now, but probably without the drawing. I think there is something shown of London Bridge with grisly heads on pikes. The earlier signs were more about the botany, present signs more about the ecology.
I can’t recall exactly when the present trail signs were installed. The signs themselves were fabricated by some place out west-Utah or something. Chief of Interpretation Bob Woody ordered them. They seem to hold up well.

You found him?? Well done! How did you do it??
A lot of the current trail markers are about botany, or rather the colonists’ likely agricultural activities, etc.
As for heads on pikes… they would be seen standing, and I certainly wouldn’t want to touch them.

You would think…
That does make sense logically.
but bureaucratically, it wouldn’t happen. The  thought process would be if it is there then leave it. searching for it would cause damage. Leaving it there will cause none.
What happens if you are injured, while performing a completely illegal act (digging in a state/national park) that some ranger gave you the ok to do. there is not a ranger who would go out on that limb.
You will find the answer to a request like that is a blanket and uniform no.
If you found something of tangible or intangible value  buried in a state or national park, it belongs to the state or federal government, and you would not be able to get permission to remove it from the park,
While a state park could be different from state to state, In California, they would be as strict as in a national park, and in a national park they are governed by federal laws, and they don’t allow any leeway.
I live near the American River. The american river riverbed is federal property.  A local artist created, little porcelain sculptures and placed them in the river. – hundreds of them.
people started finding them and taking them home. – a lot of people knew they were an “art” project. but some people didnt, One guy went down to the river and collected about 100 of them and took them back to his shop and put them on display. the newspaper wrote it up highlighting the “mystery” of where they came from. The paper mentioned the possibility they were old, The next day the FBI visited this guys shop, arrested him and confiscated all the pieces.
When it turned out that they pieces were all less then 6 months old, everybody thought the issue would go away and the guy would get off.
Turns out the law they arrested him on makes no difference between old/new/valuable or not. Simply the act of removing something from federal property was the issue.
He ended up not gettting any of them back and having to pay a fine.
I think the artist got “warning” about littering.
If one of these is in a national park, I seriously suggest leaving that one…

I truly think you will have to go on a case-by-case here. Not all Federal lands are off-limits to such activities. We have an entire river valley in my state that is Federal park land, but you can do quite a number of things you might not be able to do at, say, the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone. It depends on whether the ecology would be damaged, not on a blanket Federal prohibition.
For instance, in Utah’s Arches National Park one is not even allowed to WALK on the land, lest it disturb the desert’s “Biological Soil Crust.” In our federal park nearby, there wouldn’t be anyone to stop you if you wanted to dig a hole or bury a puzzle piece. It’s simply not patrolled except near the tourist stops. It would be extremely easy to bury almost anything there–even something relatively large.

That’s a very interesting story.  But don’t treasure hunts often lead the public to state/federal parks?  Tokens in A Treasure’s Trove were found in state parks and national forests (and publicized) But because those were found in knotholes in trees above the ground, I assumed that it was only digging that might be a problem, not removing…hmmmm

Cool, thanks for the info.

i often have to remind myself how long ago this book and hunt were developed.  Researching ‘croatoan’ now, i find this: In 1998, “The Croatoan Project,” an archaeological dig sponsored by East Carolina University, discovered the first material connection between Roanoke and the Croatan.
And think of how long ago that project happened!  Could we contact anyone about where they dug?
Even later investigations have been published, and yet they are also years old at this point:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … olony.html
If you can put up with the banner animation which slowed down my browser, click thru to the second page and read this: “In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand.”
Would that not have been cool if that were our casque?!? “(Park Service staff did not excavate the objects)”

just so i know i’m clear on where to go…
I take highway 158 to 64 (virginia dare trail S) (which is also the washington baum bridge???) then make a right onto S US Highway 64(now on the island).
here is the part that confuses me, take a right onto National Park Dr.?  Then what?  Is that the “road that leads to dark forest(the elizabethan gardens)?
i’m leaving on Wednesday!  Early morning, so could someone post by tomorrow!?
-regulus

Yes, reg – your directions are correct so far as we know. I would guess the road that leads to “dark forest” is 64 itself. The Gardens and the Ft. Raleigh Park are immediately adjacent, so you can park at either one (for free) and simply walk a few minutes to the other.
Take a camera and a copy of
The Secret
, coat yourself head to toe in insect repellant, and have fun!

great! thanks!  however, i don’t have a copy of “The Secret” i just have copies of the Verses and Images.  Which should be sufficient, unless there are clues in the story???

You may want to stay a few more days and talk to some of the historians there. They may be helpful in confirming the location of the image and the verse that goes to it. If we get a definat verse match and general area of this image the Canadian image is definately Image 11 and the city is Quebec City, Toronto or Sault Ste Marie

I think the place to dig would be right under the center of the gate opening.  The verse just mentioned the path beckoning toward the driftwood.  Then the gate is the last thing standing at the end of the path.  It’s also the first thing seen as you come back into the garden.  I would guess the “look north at the wing” is just further confirmation that it’s at the shore.

Hey, that gives me more hope!
Good thing I own a shovel…

Paul Kitchen

Here are my thoughts on the recent posts about the Harriot Trail and the railing at the lookout. I have looked over this area in great detail. The tide comes right up to the edge of the dune at this point. In fact the rail is loose and in danger of falling into to sea! If the casque were north of the rail, it would have been lost to the sea a long time ago. The errosion along the north of the island is very bad. The island was actually a 1/4 of a mile longer, to the north, 400 years ago. As to recent comments about the cemetary in the park. I read the book “The Secret”. On page 219 it specifically states that “any cemetery” does not hold any treasure. That’s a good thing.
I have been busy looking at a mountain of photographs in the park Museum Resource Center. However, so far I have had no luck finding anything dating back to 1981/2 that has shead any light on anything. Keep thinking and I will post anything that might help. Regards, Paul.

I have noted that there are quite a few flag poles in the park. I was wondering it the “Which may be last touched or first seen standing” might be a flag pole. The flag is lowered at night (last touched) and raised in the morning (first seen standing). An comments would be helpfull.
I continue to look at everything I can that might help. I just passed the 5000 photographs point! But still no luck on the old sign by the overlook.

Was just thinking about the word ‘octave’ in the first line, generally attributed to Octave Chanute, but I wondered if oct-ave could work as a hint for 8th Avenue or even 10th Ave, if there were any justification for looking at the puzzle that way. I don’t think ‘octave’ takes such usage here, but I thought I’d share the idea anyhow.

MrSeabass

I think it’s interesting, but looking at historical aerial imagery, 8th and 10th avenues barely even existed in 1983. The first line is strongly confirmed to be Octave Chanute as the connection to Kitty Hawk/the Wright Brothers is what establishes the verse. Also since all other visual landmass clues point to Roanoke Island and Fort Raleigh specifically. No other interpretations will help this one unless it deals with that area in particular; of all the ten remaining sites (besides St. Augustine) this one is the best candidate of narrowing down the area where it can be buried at.

Not to give you a hard time, but its clear to most that very little of anything is “strongly confirmed”. Some people maintain a strong prejudice for a particular link, and others remain open minded to a fault that the only confirmation of anything will come not until the next casque is actually pulled from the soil.
In as much as we generally agree the word ‘octave’ is attributed to Octave Chanute, and by association place an interest in the Wright memorial, that doesn’t fully release us from exploring any additional motivation in why the line was written in that way. The first word, ‘pass’, is interesting. Does it only suggest movement beyond that historic marker, or can it also suggest something in connection with the last word of verse? “Pass…goal”. I’d be tempted to run down a team sport oriented perspective. For what reason, I’m not completely sure, but I do like the sense of football, since 8-man is something ‘octave’ could apply. The armor could easily relate to the shoulder pads and harness of a football player. Actually, this reminds me a lot of the character Wez from Mad Max (1979), who had a big red mohawk, wore football gear, and had a weapon strapped to his gauntlet. Its a fun thought… “man of oz” = man of Aus. Mad Max is Australian right?

Oh, most of everything people have put forth is wrong. Yes, most of my ideas are wrong and yes, the Mad Max, man of Aus is stupid, but it was funny. What do you have that works?