shecrab

The original story has a
lot
more characters than just these four. Not to mention the fact that the original “Man of Oz” could be L. Frank Baum himself, the author of all 14 of the Oz books, as well as
The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus
–notable for being a famous “December” character.

shecrab

First, “OZ” is not capitalized. That disturbs me. Why isn’t it? If he’s indeed talking about the land of Oz, then it would need to be capitalized as a proper noun.

shecrab

Next, you have mention of a road–which would make the idea that ‘ride the man of oz’ meant follow a road or route–why say it two ways, when you don’t need to?

Good point
shecrab
. I like adding the author L. Frank Baum to the possible “man of oz” list. It seems that the lesser known characters in
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
should be  second choices in our matching efforts. But if we run into a wall later those characters seem like a good place to look.
Very interesting. I never noticed the missing capitalization. I’m not sure what to make of it. I don’t think it was a mistake though.
The angle I take on this repeating of traveling references is that this is another travel verse (like Milwaukee). Start one place, move here, and then move here. So, as you may be eluding to, these should be separate events of movement.

I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What about the clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk? Doesn’t the weight of the evidence overwhelmingly suggest North Carolina?

definitely FB,
that shape in P3 is definitely Roanoke Island, which is the land near the window.
We just need to figure out the last part of verse 11.
-regulus

forest_blight

I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What about the clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk? Doesn’t the weight of the evidence overwhelmingly suggest North Carolina?

Good question and thanks for jumping in
Forest
. I think you are right; the verse lines are a clear reference to the Wright Brothers National Memorial at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina.
Verse 11:
To achieve
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
The Kitty Hawk Memorial inscription:
IN COMMEMORATION OF THE CONQUEST OF THE AIR
BY THE BROTHERS WILBUR AND ORVILLE WRIGHT
CONCEIVED BY GENIUS,
ACHIEVED BY DAUNTLESS
RESOLUTION AND
UNCONQUERABLE
FAITH
Where I disagree is the use of these literary links. I think we have to be careful when using literary quotes for a location solve. As far as I know the literary references and quotes in the verses have not taken us to a location. If they have or if they ever do, will it be coincidence or a pattern (part of the formula) to rely on for solutions?
I think we should at least play out this line of thinking to Salt Lake City, especially since this verse has stalled elsewhere. I am hoping we can take this verse to some kind of resolution, whether a dead end or a perfect match to Salt Lake City. Any help would be great!
Let me review what we may have so far for a Salt Lake City solution. This verse seems to be a step-by-step traveling verse. Like Milwaukee it starts one place and leads to the final location.
Pass two friends of octave
Statues of
Two brothers
Hyrum and Joseph Smith are members
of
the “
Eight
Witnesses”
In December
The brother’s life has passed as in “December of life”? Twelve of something (lions)?
Ride the man of oz
Walk
to the
lions
on the side of the Joseph Smith Building.
To the land near the window
There is a
sidewalk
next to the
windows
between every two lions.
There’s a road that leads to
Take the
sidewalk
either left or right? Probably left since that is where the world maps are.
Dark forest
Where white is in color
Not sure what these lines mean.
With two maps
Two
huge world
maps
are on the side of the Church Office Building
After circle and square
Those maps again? Both maps are
circular
as our planet and have prominent latitude and longitude lines creating
square
boxes throughout.
In July and August
Sounds hot. High sun.
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
This sounds suspiciously like “step on nature” and “over rock and soil” from Verse 8. Seems like a park reference.
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Look north at the wing
And dig
By dauntless and inconquerable
Determination
Your goal.
The direction so far seems to lead toward Brigham Young Historic Park. I have no idea what to do with these final lines.
Here is a picture of the Church Office Building (“two maps”) with Brigham Young Park in the background.
Good Hunting.
Sonoran

regulus

definitely FB,
that shape in P3 is definitely Roanoke Island, which is the land near the window.
We just need to figure out the last part of verse 11.
-regulus

I have no doubt you guys have nailed Painting 3 down to Roanoke Island. But for Verse 11, for now, I’d like to explore the merits of Salt Lake City. What do you think?

Unknown

Unknown:
I have no doubt you guys have nailed Painting 3 down to Roanoke Island. But for Verse 11, for now, I’d like to explore the merits of Salt lake City. What do you think?

It is V11 that screams Roanoke — clue after clue fit into place. The only solid link we have between P3 and Roanoke is because of that
land near the window
line
in V11
.
To my mind, the only thing pointing to Salt Lake City is that tenuous 112 in P11. But if you believe that, you have to toss out the clear 42 and 43 references in the image (her cuff and sash), because SLC is not between latitudes 42 and 43. It is between latitudes 40 and 41.
And since when is there driftwood in Utah??

forest_blight

And since when is there driftwood in Utah??

Forest
, I think this is in riddle form.
Mica
=rock
Driftwood
=soil or maybe trees
Work with me here guys.

maltedfalcon

Well certainly the next lines do where white is in color…
with two maps after circle and square

I don’t get those lines.  How do they work?

There have been several theories about these:
7  Where white is in color
8  With two maps
9  After circle and square
I think lines 7 and 8 go together. John White drew color pictures of the Roanoke area, including color maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roanoke_map_1584.JPG
…so this is yet another instance of BP’s clever wordplay. White’s paintings and drawings can be found all over the place there, including on markers stuck into the ground (some of them with “two maps” on them).
Line 9 may go with the line after it. Or “circle and square” may represent “1 and 4” because of the number of sides on these shapes (a trick he has used elsewhere).

Wow, that is staggering and juicy at the same time.  I was looking right at that map earlier and didnt even consider its maker.  John White was Virginia Dare’s grandfather.  His work is huge in Outer Banks history and not without contreversy.  Wonder where all those marker signs you mentioned were located in 1980.

I always thought this was our wing.

cw, maybe the sand in NC won’t be so hard on your probe
k, guys, i’m in austin, tx, old computer died, and still unpacking, but i’m back, hopefully.  and hopefully i can recover all my old notes

wb slappy! i too am hoping to one day be off my cell phone and back on my computer. viruses suck

Sorry to hear you’ve had an accident, CW…..get better soon!!

Bad news cw…
I hope that the therapy makes you feel better

you could always catch a ride cw but i suppose any digging would be out of the question. lol  .    get some much deserved rest and get well soon my friend.

oh cw, i’m so sorry!  you have a right to vent and thank you for letting us know!
i wish there was someway we could really help you, and i’m sorry now that i made that joke about if you needed help you could call me at “not home”……….i really would have bailed you out if you had needed help.
hope there are lots of people to help you through all this!

Did any connection between mica and driftwood
turn up?  Driftwood of course is common, but hardly
eternal.  Mica while rare?, is used in windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mica
Seems this is a step missing from this path
of the dark forest (or it is no longer there)
Nice work but I do not see any image
connection that sticks.

After circle and square
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
—————————————
After circle and square
indicates that you have to go beyond the gardens
as was tried.
A path beckons in July and August
from what I have seen the actors lead the audience
to the theater for the Lost Colony play
To mica and driftwood
mica refers to glitz and glitter (razzle dazzle)-theater
drfitwood refers to the theater itself (see photo)
UNDER THAT  (directions on where to dig)  the stage itself
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
This is also called the Waterside Theater for its location
This stage would be the last touched if someone was getting
on a boat and leaving the island behind the stage from the beach.
Also, this is the first seen standing if someone was arriving at the island
on this spot of the beach.
Behind the stage there must only be so many areas that are digging assessible
and not under water.  I assume that looking North at the Devil Hill would help
select the spot.

Just in case your search comes up empty on this one (and I apologize for bringing in a different state) the L.Frank Baum Oz Museum is in Chittenango, NY (Mr. Baum was also born here). I am not exactly suggesting that this pic go with NY, but perhaps there is another clue in the name Chittenango or something. Chittenango competes for Wizard of Oz tourists with Kansas City, Liberal and Sedan, KS; Grand Rapids, MI; Aberdeen, SD; and Chesterton, IN…just something I found that maybe someone might find a hidden clue in.

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Has anybody taken this literally yet? There is enough evidence that the “CRO” tree prop has resided in the same spot for many years (last touched), and the first scene of the play is everyone standing on the riser that the tree stands on (first seen standing). The riser is quite easy to get under, and perhaps the plumb line indicates it is truly directly “under that”. Too simple?

slappy if this sleuthing involves, jumping fences, boy are we in trouble.
im 50 something and a bad back,so my fence jumping days are over….LOL
ive left a message for the garden folks, to send me a detailed map, we will see
im thinking, this will have to take, at least 2 days in park, to look around, probe,
dig?
the old cemetery is DOUGH, couldnt find much though,
http://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/ … anteo.html
dough maggiee meekins crypt
http://www.ncgenweb.us/dare/cemeteries/ … scrypt.jpg
wasnt their someone that lived near and was working this image?
if there was pm me, id like to hook up and talk while there, even a phone chat would work,
while im there or whatever

found this map below interesting, notice the circle, square, on the left side of map,
i see a path to the beach. the only part of the park, i ever checked out was, to the
right of the employ housing. looks like you could drive there and park, then walk up
the path/trail
has anyone ever been there
an overview map of digs
http://firstcolonyfoundation.org/archae … map_01.jpg
from here
http://firstcolonyfoundation.org/archaeology/
backside of lost col theater
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … heater.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: … heater.jpg
bench decorations, check out the leg of the bench
could there be something from pic on one of the other benches too
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cryptonaut … 015762198/

cw0909:  The area that you are asking about on the first map you reference is a residential street within the National Historic Site called Pear Pad Road.  It is a cul-de sac with some residential homes on it, as well as the maintence yard for the Historic site.  There is a very old cemetery just to the north side of the cul-de sac.  If you walk into the cemetery you will soon come to a windy height the overlooks the same beach that the Sea Gate faces.  The Theatre complex is about one quarter mile up the beach from this location, with the Sea Gate at about the half way point.

wow cw, that picture of virginia dare, you could jump that fence, and look it has the curve that is in the picture on that trellis/arbor thing!
you were looking at the bench, but i saw virginia dare!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cryptonaut … 015762198/
umm, that trellis/arbor thing isn’t quite the same, sorry, it was b4 first cup of coffee.  ;D  :-[
i guess those arches in the image is the gatehouse
i like your maps cw.
another idea for “july and august” could be #7 and #8…….and in the tour map…..that’s the tea garden and queen elizabeth statue, not sure if that has always been the case:
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tour.html
but from then you head toward the beach, and virginia dare is thataway  ;D

Fox
: It indeed could be the bench. But you see the same things standing as you do sitting down – namely, the fence rail, the ocean, the beach, and vegetation. Perhaps matters were different in 1982. My little fantasy is that those two sawed-off posts once held a sign which would make everything we’ve been wondering about seem obvious. Like, oh, a paragraph with the phrases “first to see” and “last touched” in it or something similar. I have a sub-fantasy in which the sign itself has been left, forgotten, in the back of a storage shed on the premises. As you can tell, I lead a rich fantasy life.
The story of the Lost Colony can be found in many places, including here:
http://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc.us/nc/ncsites/english1.htm
intrigued
: The overlook is a few yards to the east of the Water Gate (to its left, if standing on the beach facing the island). It’s at the point in the map below where the Thomas Hariot Trail draws closest to the beach. Here are some maps of the Elizabethan Gardens and Fort Raleigh and a satellite photo with important landmarks noted:
http://www.geocities.com/quantpsy/trove/selfmap.jpg
drewsmith
: There could have been, and I hope there was! I will be writing to an administrator soon to ask some questions.

It will be very interesting to find out to what degree Braille was used at that time in any of the park areas.  It also makes me wonder about the rather strange positioning of dots throughout Image 3.  I can’t quite figure out if they point to abbreviations (such as “NC”) or something else.  But considering how much they are present in that image, I don’t think they’re entirely random.
Drew

it’d be a lot easier if you got a bulldozer!
wilhouse

maybe but after living near a beach I know if things like that fall over
they just come out with an auger truck , drill a new hole and stand it back up.
phone poles, street signs, etc…  Is not like things like tat are cemented in.

I again want to make a play for Rodanthe.  The history of this area is very significant.  While the Wright Brothers’ event is cited for December, the Mirlo Rescue revolving around this site happened in August.
I have no idea how stable the sand would be here 2-3 feet down.  Thoughts?
You know, you should hang a plumb line off the south wing tip, that would be a great place to dig.  I don’t think you’d have any problem getting permission to dig on the beach.

The sand on a beach, however deep is not stable,
sand moves on a beach.
think of it as very thick water.  If it was buried in the sand it is no longer there.
Even the planted dunes over time will move,  Especially after storm surge.

You may be right.  I figure a bad storm has no problem shifting the first few feet of sand.  The pole is still there, si maybe that’s a good sign.

I should have taken a picture of the fence — I don’t remember much about it. I vaguely remember it being made of horizontal wires and us slipping between some wires while another person held it. But that might have been one of my many other misdemeanor trespass adventures.

forest_blight

On their lunch break, some EG groundskeepers showed me a way to the beach through the woods where we could slip between fence wires

(Thanks four21thrasher, I see what you mean.)
P
ass two friends of octave
I
n December
R
ide the man of oz
T
o the land near the window
I’m drawn to this TRIP, or RIP. Tripwires…? Does the fence look anything like this Forest…? (Without the bells obviously.) Notice how the equal spacing between the wires is continued in the wall design.
There’s just too many weird shapes in this image. This one reminds me of a doorbell.

BINGO!?
These are old fashioned glass insolated wire resistors from a telephone pole.

Pass two friend of octave
In December
Speaking of the first few lines, as I just posted on the V3 thread, these lines have to be the most prominant of all the verses considering my post from above (11-22-07).  I’d like to explore that gazebo in the Elizabethan Gardens a little more.  The verse, I believe, takes us there line by line when you get to
mica and driftwood
.  I think the gazebo was constructed from such materials.
Which maybe last touched or first seen standing
will always sound like a fallen tree to me, or a knocked down tree (touched).  Like it was left there never to be moved again.

boogieman

Pass two friend of octave
In December
Speaking of the first few lines, as I just posted on the V3 thread, these lines have to be the most prominant of all the verses considering my post from above (11-22-07).  I’d like to explore that gazebo in the Elizabethan Gardens a little more.  The verse, I believe, takes us there line by line when you get to
mica and driftwood
.  I think the gazebo was constructed from such materials.
Which maybe last touched or first seen standing
will always sound like a fallen tree to me, or a knocked down tree (touched).  Like it was left there never to be moved again.

The challenge in all of the verses is to know what to be taken verbatium and what to be taken symbolically  or as a synonym.
MICA, I firmly believe, was used to represent sand.
Driftwood, is what it is – scrap lumber.
The verse references to summer hours of the long running play.
I still firmly believe that the ‘eyes on the gorund’ should look at spots behind, around, the waterside theater stage.

WhiteRabbit

Don’t get me wrong, I’m interested in the possibility that there might once have been a sign there, but look what we’ve got already…
After circle and square
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
It looks as though this could have taken you from the circle and square of the parking lot, past where the “In July and August” monument used to be, to the Hariot Trail.
Where white is in color
With two maps
Look north at the wing
And dig
The two solved casques were pinpointed by the verse rather than the image. I don’t think we can assume they all are, but either way, I don’t see how the sign (if there was a sign) could help to pinpoint this. Sure, there might be some visual confirmer, but like I say, I think there’s sufficient grounds already. I think it’s very unlikely to shed light on “that which is last touched or first seen standing”. Sure, it’s worth trying to find out, but it’s not the only thing to consider.
At the moment I’m more interested in the idea that the visual confirmer could be the railing (or some other feature at this location we haven’t seen, like a wire fence), since unlike the sign, that could indicate an actual spot to dig.
It’s a minor point. I just didn’t want this thread to get too hung up on stuff that’s not there, like some others have been…

I was not able to get into the achives today. It was a sunny warm day that baconed for a bicycle ride, rather than an aftenoon in a gloomy room. I will try for Friday. I am not sure about the Harriot Trail location. If I understand this correctly, the only two finds have been close to something rather solid and long lasting. There is nothing like that around the trail. I have walked it frequently looking for any clue to link the image or verse, with no luck so far. I will keep looking everywhere. Who knows, I might just find the “Force” one day and discover something!

Paul Kitchen

I have been asked to post photographs of the wall around the Eleizabethan Garden. They are posted @
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 … 176347805/
When facing the entance to the garden the wall extends out in both directions the left side runs about fourty feet then turns 45 degrees back away from the front wall. It is plain and can only be accessed on the outside of the gardens. The wall extending to the right also runs abour fourty feet before turning right at 90 degress and extends out about sixty feet. Both sides of the wall can bee accessed without entering the gardens. The right side walls include the iron gate and wall plaque that has the qoute concerning the “Dark Forest”.

thank you paul for the pics,i was hoping that there was a place in the wall,
that looks,like the wall near the floor, behind the armor man,every time i
look at it,it reminds me of a coped cut of baseboard,that hasnt been set in
place yet,and the little blob on that part of wall bugs me,like something
stuck to the wall
are there any paths that run next to these walls
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 … 294915521/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 … 9294915521
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8079704@N0 … 9294915521

gManTexas

Do we have any linguists here? I’m looking at this verse and the word “inconquerable” is curious. I know this word was used long ago, but fell out of favor for unconquerable.
The dedication on the Wright Brothers monument uses the word Unconquerable.
Is this just a grammatical error or does it refer to something other than the Wright Brothers?

Bump

Unknown

Unknown:
Did you consider digging behind the sign itself, Forest…? Or let me rephrase that – why the !@?#! didn’t you turn this place over while you were there?

Because I’m an
armchair
treasure hunter, WR! Seriously, I just took a day trip from Chapel Hill to see what I could see, not get arrested and fined for vandalism. My biggest regret isn’t not digging, it’s not taking mosquito repellent. You may doubt all you like, but I am certain mosquitoes ate the Lost Colony.

Here’s Paul’s pic of that sign.
Is there a drop from the sign to that sandy area…? Did you consider digging behind the sign itself, Forest…? Or let me rephrase that – why the !@?#! didn’t you turn this place over while you were there?  😉
Re: the “Graveyard” on the sign…last touched – grave…? There are enough hints in this pic for people to have researched some local cemetary in the past…
* * * * *
Introductory randomness…
From the English section of the introduction:
“
Right
gladly did all that company hear the news of a new haven in the West,
and right
swiftly they embarked therefor.”
Right and right = the Wrights.
“Therefor” – very weird word. There four.
You say, hey, we need casque-finding evidence before we can adopt such usages.
I say – well, get a spade and take a look. A discovery based on such radical reasoning would be revolutionary.
Progress = hypothesis + experiment
One of the more distinctive and eye-catching visual details on the sign is those boats.
“At lengthe wee fownd an entrance vppon our mens diligent serche therof”

OK, yes, I agree that the overlook is the most likely spot, the bench is attention-grabbing, and the words could possibly be taken to mean a seat. Somehow this particular wooden bench doesn’t look a likely dig spot to me though. Where under the bench, exactly…? In the middle…? Why…? BP couldn’t have literally dug under it without moving it, so do you imagine him dragging it out the way, digging a hole, then dragging it back…? Did he reposition it exactly after he’d finished digging the hole? Could he assume no-one else would ever move it again…? The ground under it looks pretty solid too.
that which may be…first seen standing
We’ve considered “that which is first seen when you stand” (eg seat) and “that which is standing when you first see it”. But this could also mean “the first thing you see when you stand up (from the bench)”. I still like the railing, which is fixed, is right in front of you when you stand up, has softer ground, and even a possible image match – though I can’t explain why it should be “last touched” in a simple and convincing way. I’d like to see the other end of it.

My vague memory of the bench is that it was fastened to the ground in some way, and anyway too new-looking to have been there in 1981. Maybe I’m wrong.

rookhunter

It looks like a drop off and sand under the railing.

Yep…I was wondering about the other end, but I don’t know if it continues beyond what can be seen in the pic. if not, I’d be tempted to go for the spot between the middle and right post, using the “goal” idea. (The pic also shows the gem between two pillars. The idea of using the pic for locating a spot is unproven of course, but you never know.)
Perhaps this section of railing could be represented by the strut underneath the arms.

Does Roanoke have waves on its shores?  Being shielded (armored?) by the barrier islands is a factor.
I’m looking at the wave shape in the armor piece in image 3 and the line about a path beckons.  In accordance with following the exactness of words, I think looking for “waves” is critical.
Additionally, Im critical of how a bar across a path to the beach is in any way beckoning…its warding or impeding.

when it is windy there are definitely waves.
but they are not directly from the ocean.
but ocean waves  can also reflect around the ends of barrier islands into the inland waters.

I have yet to do some research on this, but I’m putting it down anyways.
Speaking with a book buff today, I was told about a theory that Baum chose Oz as a reference to the ounce unit oz. because it had something to do with his position on the silver vs gold standard.

forest_blight

It is at the beach end of the Thomas Hariot Nature Trail, in the Ft. Raleigh park.
This is the spot from which you can look north and literally see the “wing” of the Wright Brothers memorial with the naked eye, if you know where to look. I think the casque is here somewhere, and I’d give a lot to know what those two sawed-off posts once supported.

I’m with FB on this one.  This is 1 of 2 spots I believe the casque to be….the other being out at the gate.  Ah those infamous sawed off posts….indeed, what did they once support?  Probably one of our visual confirmers in the I.

OK, if y’all like this place, can you put a cross on a map so we can see where it is and how you get there…?
The thing that strikes me about the final wing quote is that Kitty Hawk is a pretty obvious local landmark, so by the time you’ve got to Roanoke and figured out the Wright Brothers reference in the first line, it’s not going to be a “wow” moment, a revelation, at the end. It’s not like you’re going to think: “OK, so I’ve solved all these obscure references to local signposts and monuments, and…hang on…look north at the wing! It’s Kitty Hawk!”
It’s too obvious to be used like that. I see it as a “rumble, brush and music hush”-style overview. Otherwise, why not just skip straight to the last line and ignore the rest? This place has no image matches either, and I’m definitely not buying the “maybe there used to be” argument.
There are loads of maps. The water gate makes more sense to me than this place at the moment if you want a beach location, but I’m told it’s off limits. I’d still like to get a photo of it from the beach side.

Welcome!
Here is a link to an article which I think supports why I find it acceptable to consider the Life Saving Station 30 minutes south of Roanoke. This connection has value as it relates to the men who helped Orville and Wilber get their plane off the ground that day.
https://www.uscg.mil/history/articles/i … le_men.asp

Unknown

Unknown:
I remember well when there were only a handful of homes in Rodanthe at all and Mirlo Beach really was just a dream. lol (“dare to dream the impossible dream” was on their sign when they first started.)

Cask 3
Verse 11 Rodanthe
I found a picture of this sign along Highway 12 near the Chicamacomico Life Saving Station, I’d like to know how long it’s been there or if it had been there since 1981 and did it then have the words “Dare to dream the impossible dream” written below “MIRLO BEACH”?
The part that interests me most is the link it might have to the line of verse,
“Where white is in color”
Since “With two maps” follows, it’s easy to consider the connection it might be making to John White, the colonist/cartographer and grandfather to Virgina Dare -interesting that the sign contains the word “Dare”.  Had the line capitalized the word as “White”, then it would be a sure fit for John White, but as it’s lower case, I would prefer to prioritize finding something which is actually the white in color.  This sign above uses white letters to spell the word “MIRLO” which is the word for a blackbird, which makes it more interesting since we have some letters, white in color, spelling a word for a blackbird, named for it’s color.
I haven’t given any thought to the connection this might have to Don Quixote.  Something to consider.  “Dream the impossible dream”, The Quest.
e: briefly looking at the lyrics from the Man of La Mancha, there’s a line from Aldonza saying “These ridiculous…things you do!” and then towards the end of song, Quixote says, “That one man, scorned and covered with scars, Still strove, with his last ounce of courage, To reach the unreachable stars!”.  The mention of “ounce of courage” and “ridiculous” actions of Don Quixote may fit the “Ride the man of oz” line, translating it to mean “Ridicule the man of courage” since oz could be ounce.
The Wright Brothers memorial words, “In commemoration of the conquest of the air by the brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright conceived by genius achieved by dauntless resolution and unconquerable faith,” may be a good parallel to Don Quixote’s faith-filled and determined quest to reach for the stars.
ee: ooh, another idea just jumped to mind.  There’s a common question about dreaming in color.  Some people claim they only dream in black and white.  Perhaps to those people, it is an “impossible dream” to dream in color.
eee: found this from someone who writes this as if they remember the early days of home building in Rodanthe,

Glossiphoniidae

Who are the “you all” included in this grouping of yours?

Merlot Brougham

Who are the “you all” included in this grouping of yours?

Myself, and anybody who has posted since I became a member, and many who posted before that. Nobody has been able to PROVE a theory correct, only argue that it is correct. What would you need to PROVE something correct?

Unknown

Unknown:
What would you need to PROVE something correct?

A few more casques would be a good start. Because as it stands right now, we can’t even agree on how the Cleveland and Chicago solves inform the rest of the puzzles. Or even if they do.

regulus

i’m pretty sure that there is only one bench of the kind I’m speaking of.  There are multiple stone benches, but not multiple stone benches with a backrest with a symbol on it.  Which matches the bottom half of the symbol on the Armor’s chest.  With the jewel right underneath it, symbolizing that the jewel is under the symbol.

not sure maybe this is what your talking about

the stone symbol is the one on the bench, yes… but the one on the armor, no.  Lower, the armor’s abdomen, contains the bottom half of the symbol.

regulus are you going back?

forest_blight

It’s a fair point. But the verse says “Ride the man of oz /
To
the land near the window.”

But you are assuming that verse 11 is associated with the image. I am asking, in general, because I’ve found verse 10 to be almost as equally viable.
Do note, I still have a specific spot on Roanoke that I truly believe is the location, but I am just doing some tangential (dangerous!) research in the meantime.

You are right, I am assuming that. I am open to other ideas, but it would take a lot of evidence to convince me otherwise.

What?!?  ???  With the references to the Wright brothers with a word for word quote from the memorial, besides inconquerable of course, how can you consider a different verse? That would almost require casque in hand. I have no doubt that we have the correct verse/image match. Anything else is a waste of time. Just saying.

It’s a good theory: “last touched” because it was the last thing the colonists presumably touched before disappearing into history, “first seen” because White and his men saw it upon arrival at the former colony, and “standing” because it’s a tree. When I visited Roanoke in 2005, one of the gardeners took me to the spot where the “Croatoan tree” once stood. I dismissed the claim as ridiculous, because there’s no way it could have been the same tree, but I didn’t want to be rude, so we kept walking. I did take a picture of the spot, though. It is now an unassuming garden patch. I can’t remember precisely where it is, but I suspect this photograph I took may help someone on-site:

Perhaps this post above from ferrymaiden will give Bigmattyh an idea of why we keep at this hunt.
wilhouse

This does sound logical
now take it to the next  step
Lets say its a tree, whether or not original wouldnt matter only that BP chose to use it.
In July and August
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Look north at the wing
And dig
If its a tree then by saying look north at the wing and dig. would indicate to me the casque is buried north of the tree.
if you were on the south side of the tree and looked north you would see the tree…
So back to the tree looking north dig.

My point exactly.  Thanks for posting that for me wilhouse.  If the fabled tree…or one that the gardens claimed to be the tree were located….just get on the north side of the tree and dig.  Right there at the base of the tree. If that is not possible, than perhaps when gazing north, you would see an obvious spot to dig.

I see only one problem in all of this regarding a tree:  if the tree we seek is
inside
the Elizabethian Gardens, then digging the casque out from under it is going to be a problem.  It has be noted by others in this thread that the Gardens are privately owned and operated.  Permission to dig seems sure to be a problem, unless your proofs are full proof and point to the exact location without doubt.  Otherwise,I don’t think permission to dig in the Gardens will be forthcoming.
The other thing that bugs me is whether BP would have buried the casque inside the Gardens at all, considering they are privately owned and would get all kinds of people upset if treasure hunters just started digging up the place.
As a result, I have tended to shy away from the Gardens as the treasure site, and feel it is more likely that the casque was buried on the adjacent public lands of the National Historic site.  Less people, more acerage, more privacy, and presumably easier to dig up without having the local police respond.  Still, it is surley illegal today under Federal law to dig up and remove anything from the National Historic site as well.  Who knows what artifacts may be disturbed, etc.

I’m going to throw my 2-cents worth in here for a moment. It has to do with Mica.
Mica is not Sand. Sand is largely silica. I am not saying that mica can’t be a small component of the beach sand around this area, but geologically, they aren’t the same.  I have had a problem with mica being used to represent sand (or sandy soil) ever since it was first mentioned here.
Truthfully, I can’t take issue with mica being a part of this
state location
–but not in the manner that it must represent the BEACH or the SAND. As a point of fact, North Carolina is one of the country’s leading producers of mica–but this is mined in the mica mines in the
mountainous
regions of the state–and not on the beach nor on Roanoke Island. The mica mines are far inland. I don’t know why, then, there would be any mention of mica on the Hariot trail sign.

Its been ages since I have been to the area, kitty hawk, nags head etc.,,
but I seem to remember the the inland side of the islands (not the ocean side)
the sand in the beaches had tons of mica flecks…
little shiny squarish flat specs.
but I havent ever been to roanoke so I dont know for sure…

Unknown

Unknown:
I don’t know why, then, there would be any mention of mica on the Hariot trail sign.

I don’t know either, shecrab, but wouldn’t it have been a coup if it
had
mentioned mica? Or someone named Mica, or an organization whose initials were M.I.C.A., or
something
?
Still, your point is a good one. Driftwood I can understand. You have only to walk to the beach and you see it everywhere – not just the usual wood and garbage that washes up on any shore, but honest-to-goodness
driftwood
– old conifer logs of the sort that artists like to gather and use. The real deal.
But mica? This is truly a mystery. Mica was all over the place where I grew up (foothills of the NC mountains), but sheets of transparent rock aren’t exactly common on the coast. I can see BP mentioning mica as a cagey hint about beach sand (mica is a component of ocean sand, but not a prominent one). But once he says “driftwood” he’s given up all pretense at cageyness and inserted a direct reference to the beach.

I will probably be slammed for this as fitting the solution to meet the clues,
but keep in mind this was versed in 1980-something…..  low tech times
(by today’s standards)
I did think, and still think, it is possible that Mica is another word
for sand in the context used.
But consider that BP wants to lead us not to a general area, but a
specific area.  Mica and driftwood.
Mica is a large component in electronics – compacitors, wiring, etc..
Once at the Path to the Dark Forrest, the only electronics in a short distance
is the innner workings of the stage and the theater – wiring, hydrollics, sound board,
etc…
Instead of sand, mica was used to represent ‘high-tech’ (maybe)
Walk to behind the stage (or to the operational off-stage area)

A friend of mine suggests Washington DC for this verse.
“Where white is in color” may be the famous cherry blossoms.
“After circle and square” may have something to do with the Mall (I’m not sure why).
“Look north at the wing” may refer to the White House.
“By dauntless and inconquerable” may refer to what is inscribed on a plaque, statue or monument.
–Johann

Unknown

Unknown:
Wash Woods was an unincorporated town located on the coast of the Atlantic Ocean in Princess Anne County in the extreme southeastern corner of Virginia. The site of the former town is currently located within False Cape State Park in the Virginia Beach area.
According to popular legend, the community was developed by survivors of a shipwreck in the 16th or early 17th century.  The village’s church and other structures were built using cypress wood that washed ashore from a shipwreck. Around the turn of the 20th century, the area was still inhabited. Wash Woods was home to a United States Coast Guard lifesaving station, a grocery store, two churches, and a school. Three hundred people once lived there, working as fishermen, farmers, hunting guides and manning lifeboats.

I recalled an earlier idea about a “false” cape, not sure if it had to do with the actual town of False Cape, but it had to do with a spot White mapped accurately when other cartographers made maps without the cape feature.  Apparently the cape WAS there at one point.  I’m still looking for the story of that detail.
Anyways, was reading this about False Cape, Virginia and something about an Irish settlement that built itself from driftwood caught my attention:
So the town was named “Wash Woods”.  Isn’t it standard practice to sort your wash into “lights” and “darks”?  Perhaps “Dark Forest” is a reference to the area where this town once stood?
Could “land near the window” simply be referring to “port” as opposed to “starboard”?

erexere

Could “land near the window” simply be referring to “port” as opposed to “starboard”?

I would have to say no. If I followed that association, it could just as easily mean “port” land… Oregon.

Glossiphoniidae

I would have to say no. If I followed that association, it could just as easily mean “port” land… Oregon.

Ugg.  I don’t want to go there.  I’m merely considering that a window IS a port, and so is the land side of a ship seen as the definition of the ships port-side or left.
Just thinking about what this means in the most general sense.  I’m not pointing fingers or making word associations.  This is only a defining mention.
I must also point out the alternative, where the Roanoke Island is the land depicted near the window of image 3.  Perhaps that is all that might be in reference too.
There looks like three big references to the Wright brothers.  Friends of Octave, the wing, and the inscription on the memorial with “dauntless”.  That’s a lot of focus on one place.

hi paul not sure if this link will work for you,the other link,has a toolbar for zoom
or just click the 2nd pic and select slide,if you cant see it ill try something else
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ … 671444_0_0
use the view drop down
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ … VAcpw/edit

trying something else
scroll down to 2nd img
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ … sent?pli=1

Paul’s travels have now taken him onward…looks like he’s presently in Missouri.
http://www.fulltimeit.com/index_files/Page339.htm
I got in touch with the curator at the airport museum though. He’s ruled out the museum exhibits as the place postdates the puzzle, but he’s interested in the north locations and is planning a research trip to the
Outer Banks History Center
…

WhiteRabbit

Paul’s travels have now taken him onward…looks like he’s presently in Missouri.
http://www.fulltimeit.com/index_files/Page339.htm
I got in touch with the curator at the airport museum though. He’s ruled out the museum exhibits as the place postdates the puzzle, but he’s interested in the north locations and is planning a research trip to the
Outer Banks History Center
…

You are correct. We have started our travels west and currently are in Valentine, NE for a few days. I have suspended my hunt for “The Secret” tresure. However, I will return to Fort Raleigh in April of 2013 and pick up where I left off. I know that the Part Service will be getting some ground penetrating radar equipment in the next year. So, once I have an X on the gorund we will be able to check the spot before the dig! I have some spots in mind, but they will have to wait until next year. PLease keep me posted with any new developments. Best regards, Paul

Orville and Wilbur Wright were good (though somewhat on and off) friends of aviation pioneer Octave Chanute, and they first flew in December.  Thus, I read the first two lines as a reference to the Wright Brothers.
Unfortunately, there are so many references to a statue unveiled last year and their famous flight around the Statue of Liberty, that I can’t find mention of any older statues of them (might expect in their hometown of Dayton, Ohio or at the Air and Space Museum in D.C.).  They are buried in Dayton.
Also potentially relevant:  August Herring was a competitor of theirs, and the verse mentions August.  The verse also mentions a wing.

“There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest
Where white is in color”
It seems that the dark forest reference is clear but what is the white in color?  There is a local legend of Virginia Dare roaming the area as a White Doe:
http://www.icw-net.com/tales/mantwdoe.htmbut
what about it being in color?  The statue of Virginia Dare in the garden is white and it is surrounded by the colors of the plantlife….?…..
would the Elizabethan Gardens be considered off limits in the rules…page 219 – paragraph (c) “any public or private flower bed”

“is in color” is sometimes a phrase for “is in bloom”.
is there a plant that has white blossoms nearby? gardenia, magnolia or such?
wilhouse

Popularly known as the “Breeches Buoy Rescue Reenactment,” the large mast structure that looks like a football goal post literally passes friends from the platform across the beach and down to safety.  The first line about passing two friends of octave has dual applcation, first to recognize the Wright Bros and then last to connect to the casque spot at the site of the summer drills.

fox, I’ve been trying. No one seems to remember. The intern who placed trail markers throughout the trail in the 1970s (Ken Johns) has such a common name that I couldn’t track him down. I can’t find photos, either. I’d give my right ar… well, maybe a pinky toe to find out what was on that sign.

I think that it just means the beach… he couldn’t just say beach, so he said driftwood, but the mica part… I don’t know.  So… once we cross the Baum bridge, what leads us to the Elizabethan Gardens?  The Road that leads to dark forest???
-regulus

reg – the “dark forest” reference is explained in the 3rd and 4th photos in the album linked to above.

Speaking of plaques…I’ve read that there is a plaque dedicated to Albert Bell located somewhere at the waterside theatre but have been unable to find any pics or details yet….Still getting familiar with the area with all of your help and now I need to know – are there any plaques on, at, or near the actual earthen fort itself?  In photos, I just keep seeing the same sign over and over asking folks not to climb on it.

FB, maybe you can find a message board of some sort for cities/towns around Ft. R, post the picture, and see if any locals can help identify it.

Still love this as our site.  Can someone please
oh please find out what was on the 2 posted sign if that was what was there?  I think that may just be our key ingredient needed…

good plan!

Unknown

Unknown:
a. The first or foremost position.
b. One occupying such a position; a leader

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first
I was thinking about these lines and wondered about “lead”. The lead can mean the first…
…and lead is sometimes used to line coffins.
There’s also the unexplained plumb-line…
…and the line:
A path
lead
s
I reckon it might be worth checking the area around the overlook and the water gate for lead pipes, cladding, or similar. “Seen standing” might indicate upright/vertical.
(I was listening to
The Gold Bug
on the radio yesterday. The buried treasure is found using a plumb-line.)

yes I do see that similarity,
but what are the odds that in 1981 that pole or a pole with the similar support or power requirements stood there.
was there even anything building, bench, pole in that spot back then?

The odds are certainly something.  Poles are replaced very infrequently.  Storm damage and time are the main considerations here.  Lines have probably been replaced, but utility poles tend to be very well treated with that pitchy black preservation stuff.  There is going to be a code stamp on the pole itself.  I found a historical record on the site that might support little having been changed since the 50’s.  Will try to find that later.

I had posted this on the V5 thread.  Haven’t seen it here yet. (maybe I have)
Trying to get out of Fort Raleigh and stay in Kitty Hawk for this one.  Hard to do.  But maybe the path that leads to Dark Forest is actually the
Virginia Dare Trail
which is
Rte 12
that starts at the Wright Memorial Bridge and goes south, passing the two friends of octave and ends at the Washington Baum Bridge down by Whalebone.  The line
ride the man of oz
takes us to Manteo though.  Can anyone see otherwise?  Can we avoid going over that bridge and stay east with this verse?  We need a visual of that church-like window in image3.  Don’t know if we’ll find one at Fort Raleigh.  Shecrab, that last touched or first seen idea is pretty cool, what about the
Standing
bit though?

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Under that which may be last touched might refer to the edge of an airstrip, or perhaps the END of an airstrip, at the place where the plane begins its run down the strip. There is usually a light or marker at that point.
On the Kitty Hawk airstrip, there are four white granite stones marking the lengths of each of the first 4 flights.
Under that which may be last touched, is the strip itself–note how grassy and easy to dig in it would be!!
Or first seen standing–could refer to the first granite stone.  The first one seen standing. Turn north toward the “wing”, the memorial, and DIG.

yes… try it! but what about the rest of the book, don’t we have to be on roanoke island?  after all it IS the land near the window… maybe someone should post a rundown of the verse, of what we have so far.
-regulus

If you don’t have a friend who can make one, you can buy almost the exact same thing at Home Depot for $20 in the pipe area.  I have two (I bent one in the hard Zoo dirt).
wilhouse

Josh, where was your dig site on Roanoke Island?

i literally just explained it above…lol…

JoshCornell

already travelled there…it was at the tree on the raised bit on the right hand side of the beach at the end of the rightmost path at the end of dare avenue leading to the beach. (and would have been on the west side).

Fenix

Should we be paying more attention to inconquerable? I have a very hard time believing that this was just a “typo”. Think about Byron’s accolades, etc. Would he really screw up this word that is carved in stone? Inconquerable is not even a word….it had to be intentional.
Should we be looking for a clue in conquerable? Era, queen, on erable, etc etc etc….

I’ve been wondering that for a while. Did some research, came up empty. However, inconquerable is an old timey word and was used.

Fenix

My mistake there….maybe he just changed it. Strange but possible.

I found some usage but it was relatively obscure, so I stopped looking. There may be a solid hit out there though.

What’s the chance of Hurricane Florence flooding causing the casque to be unearthed (perhaps during cleanup)?

Elcid

What’s the chance of Hurricane Florence flooding causing the casque to be unearthed (perhaps during cleanup)?

Knowing our luck – it will probably create a sink hole and suck it down 80ft. further.

There are 6 lines of the verse talking about the WB Memorial.
Why so many?

erexere

if I’m not mistaken I think that the point of saying December here is helpful in connecting the first flight date to the puzzle.

… You are not mistaken.

There are three possibilities.
Go to the secret wiki and it explains it all.
1. a tree from 1500’s (at the base of it) “first seen standing”
2. The croatan tree at the waterside theater.
3. At the gate in the Elizabethan Gardens.
“go to the land near the window – there is the shape of roanoke island

Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave?  Surely you can see the wing clearly from there….
superman vison i want some too

slappybuns

i think:
V11
Pass two friends of octave
In December                                            ………………….is NC 12

This makes great sense,
NC 12 or the Virginia Dare Highway ( a reference to Roanoke)
starts just before Kitty hawk and passes by the Wright brothers memorial (2 friends of Octave
December = 12.
A problem with the man of oz, is the Ferry with the Name Baum wasnt put into serviice until 1992…
leaving the bridge as an option… if this verse theory is going to work out…

According to wikipedia and NCDOT, Baum’s ferry system was in operation before 1947:
“In 1947, the Commission purchased the ferry operations of T.A. Baum, who operated a route that ran across Croatan Sound and linked Manns Harbor and Roanoke Island. This became the first route of the N.C. Ferry System.”
On the other hand…
“The Thomas A. Baum was built at the Steiner Shipyards in Bayou La Batre, AL and was delivered to the North Carolina Department of Transportation on
June 13, 1995
. It is powered by two Detroit Diesel 12V71 DDECs each rated at 500 HP.”
Still, it’s a good point. At issue is whether there was any visible reason to connect the name “Baum” to the ferry between the years 1947 and 1995, specifically c. 1981. I have e-mailed a couple of people knowledgeable about Roanoke’s recent history to find out. I’ll let you know if I find out anything.

there is still the  washington baum bridge, it was built in 1928………i know, doesn’t quite fit the word “ride”, unless he means ride in a car, lol
” new infrastructure tied the island to other areas, Roanoke Island became less remote. In 1928 the Washington Baum Bridge was completed, linking Roanoke Island to the Outer Banks beaches. Two years later the Wright Memorial Bridge was constructed to tie those beaches to Currituck from the north. New roads were built from Elizabeth City and Manteo, and as the automobile became more popular, boat usage declined somewhat. Today around 4,145 residents make their home on Roanoke Island.”
http://www.insiders.com/outerbanks/main-overviews5.htm

maltedfalcon

This makes great sense,
NC 12 or the Virginia Dare Highway ( a reference to Roanoke)
starts just before Kitty hawk and passes by the Wright brothers memorial (2 friends of Octave
December = 12.

feeling a little slow here today.  I understand the ‘December’ part equals 12…but could you please explain how ‘2 friends of octave’ equals NC?   D:)

“Pass
two friends of octave
/
In December
” means “Pass the
Wright Brothers Memorial
/ on
NC Route 12
.”

boogieman

I had posted this on the V5 thread.  Haven’t seen it here yet. (maybe I have)
Trying to get out of Fort Raleigh and stay in Kitty Hawk for this one.  Hard to do.  But maybe the path that leads to Dark Forest is actually the
Virginia Dare Trail
which is
Rte 12
that starts at the Wright Memorial Bridge and goes south, passing the two friends of octave and ends at the Washington Baum Bridge down by Whalebone.

I took this sign to be
December
.
Anyway, has anyone noticed that the entrance to Fort raliegh has a circle driveway and a square parking lot.  just to the right of that on the map is Dare Ave.  Along that road is John White Blvd.  At the end of Dare Ave and beyond the square parking lot is the beach, facing north.  Wondering if any of you ventured down that path yet? (path to mica and driftwood?) I am assuming that the sign with July and August would be in the circle area of the entrance.  Correct?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&i … 6&t=h&z=17

boogie – I remember the marker being located about where the yellow “X” is:
Maybe I’m a little off. If I am, it’s maybe a little deeper into the woods, a smidge closer to the Fort.

Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave?  Surely you can see the wing clearly from there….
In verse10, I believe you are suppose to go to the grey giant (WTC), Statue of Liberty, and then the Verrazano over the slender path.
In verse11, I believe you are suppose to go to the Wright Memorial and read the inscription, see that sign, then follow the road to lead us to the dark forest.  Get out of your car, read the sign with July/August and notice the circle and square.
The hunt for the casques is suppose to be fun.  Says it right in the book.  What more fun can you have than going to all these places?

Jockey’s Ridge State Park
, established by Baum in the mid ’70’s seems like a good fit for “Ride the man of oz”.

kato i noticed that too, ill have the pic and v with me,
so maybe ill see, something there from the image
i know there is a half suite of armor, dont remember where,
maybe the visitor center
forgot to mention the bells,would those be wedding bells
i think they still have weddings there
whoops sorry forgot one more thing, where the bench is
the bench with engraving is in the woodland childs section
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho … 0444awrFyr

cw0909

In July and August
when the play plays

All Ok… just one detail… Plays start in June…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQO6U6w2pTc

cw…that is pretty much exactly how I take it also.  There is too darn much for it NOT to be in the E Gardens.  It is near that darn gate & bench my friends.  Mark my words…

eljayo

All Ok… just one detail… Plays start in June…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQO6U6w2pTc

was just thinking about that
so maybe in 80-81 it was at a different starting time
or it could just be a clue for the grave marker that says july august
july fouth opened and august roosevelt attended
i dont remember a marker/sign stating that but prob is one anyone know for sure
North Carolina’s Paul Green penned the production, which was a unique combination of drama, song, and dance, while Roanoke Islanders set to work building the magnificent Waterside Theatre on the very spot where the colonists settled. On July 4, 1937, The Lost Colony opened to a packed house, despite the economic hardship of the Great Depression.
The show was intended to run only through the end of that summer. But when Franklin D. Roosevelt attended on August 18, 1937, the nation’s eyes were fixed on the production, assuring that there would be subsequent seasons
http://www.thelostcolony.org/History.htm

The Water Gate: I agree, I agree, I agree. I have even probed near this Gate on three separate occassions, from both sides.  But where in Image 3 is the Water Gate or its envrions depicted?  I can’t find it in the Image, and I would think that it would be as clearly depicted as the fence post in Image 5 is (Chicago Casque) since the Water Gate is also a distinctive marker.  I agree with Fox, the casque is near this Gate. Somewhere.  But the clues have to line up, from the verse, and from an Image.  How do the clues in Image 3 get us to the Water Gate?  The verse seems to lead there, but Image 3 is a conundrum.

this very first picture of forest_blight”s has the crest shaped like a gravestone (upside down) and the cross:
http://travel.webshots.com/album/550878737WxeMst

Cormac

I keep hearing “inside the gate” and “outside the gate”, but doesn’t the v say “under”
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Having to dig under that fence from either side with the fence locked would certainly require
“dauntless and inconquerable Determination”

have thought about that and, it would have, had to been dug at
an angle, which would make it harder to find, i would think
at one of the pillars or center of gate
from this post
Re: Verse 11
« Reply #317 on: August 10, 2009, 07:06:07 pm »
Look north at the wing And dig
just in the direction of the wing
and i think that would be the left hand pillar of water gate
or the right pillar under the gate
and under the gate near pillar/s is where to dig
http://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey13.html

slappy all things are possible at this point
maybe that armor is telling us, it is around the visitor center
seems there was an engraving, or a plague, with a pic of some guy in armor
or maybe it was just the armor. dont know memory is bad LOL
see the funny 2 pointed, weapon in upper left hand corner of this pic,
looks sorta like the thing hanging, from the armor guy in p3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/46 … 059739991/
the start of that guys lost colony set
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/se … il/?page=4

and you’ll be there soon!
i like somewhere around the visitor center.  can’t wait til after your visit and your thoughts, or hopefully your hunt

Another view of the gate

“The post and the tree bearing the carvings have long since vanished, “
http://www.hometowntales.com/forum/view … hp?f=8&t=9
no one laughed at my “
to achieve”,  “to a chief”
……and i’m kindof serious  🙂
but how about this…………”which may be last touched”………………….something
lost.
………….and then with cw’s “
scene”
for “first seen”………..the lost colony play
and even “to mica and driftwood”……..
“waterside
” theater
what do ya think?
plus, “look north at the
wing and dig”
, i still like
chief wingina
,
maybe somewhere you look
“up”  (for North)  at chief wingina
maybe a “sign”, or “ceremonial pole” or “sculpture” or just a picture  of him
around the visitor center museum since that’s where the armor is, or maybe just a sign with “the lost colony”
i hadn’t noticed that looking like a bell beside the suit of armor before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461771523/

cw0909

could the armor man be the map, so to speak

I resized your image, cropped the picture to give me a straight vertical line from the middle of the entrance to the water, then adjusted  it slightly to match the angled line below the arm and matched
Doing this put the chest cross thing right in the center of the  sunken garden.
Interesting.

forest_blight

Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
If one sits on the bench at the beach overlook and stands, the first thing you see over the fence (or perhaps over encroaching vegetation in 1983?) is the left-most of these posts:
… Unlike jetties, which extend perpendicular to the beach, these lie in a line parallel to the beach, and are of different heights.
It might also be the last one you would touch if you were wading and using them as hand-holds.

Your post really got me thinking… Preface all this with the fact that I am a total subscriber to the casque being located  near the “two maps” sign now.
Your sharp description has given me a few new thoughts:
What do you make of the plumb line (surely a clue rather than an arbitrary image) when paired with a verse within which the most tantalizing clue is the “under that…”?
plumb line (NOUN)
– a line with weight attached: a line to which a weight is attached
to find the depth of water
or to verify a true vertical alignment
-Could it be tied to that left-most post sunk under the water and sand?
-Could it be at a point in a line created by tying a string to the left-most post and moving toward the beach in a) a direct north/south direction? b) the beach in a direction perpendicular to the posts?
-Could it under the “X,” which might be seen as a spot to the right of the path  as you walk/look up towards the rail/overlook?
Whoa… Right turn…
I was just researching the inlets on the maps because the sign said, “Today, only one [inlet] would appear on White’s map” (i.e., it is the last one that can be touched). I came across this while searching the names of the inlets from the map so I could determine which one was no longer there:
“
inlet of Chacandepeco, which is Algonquian for “that which is deep and becomes shallow.
“
This inlet is one listed on Hattaras.
Makes me think that this could be an obscure transformation of our verse, or that one of the other inlets on the map translates to “that which is last touched or first seen standing” directly. Then it really could be
under
that which may be (is) last touched or first seen standing. Perhaps we just drop a plum line from the inlet under the sign to the ground… perhaps it’s directly under the sign!?
http://www.lost-colony.com/cultural.html
has the names and translation of the villages on the map, but not the inlets (e.g.,
Aquascogooc: A place to embark or where a place for disembarking exists
).

421, you’re idea about plumb lines got me thinking more about the ‘last touched first seen standing’.
I’ve been working the telephone idea and haven’t yet addressed the “lines” connecting things in the image.  The insulators are hanging like bells from a plumb line.  This idea wants to go somewhere.  How about a truly simple idea:  A LINE.
People
are seen standing in a
line
.  Distant
people
are “touched” with a phone call through a phone
LINE
.  AT&T BELL had a slogan around 1980 if you recall, “Reach out.  Reach out and touch someone.”
I think it must be that the casque is located beneath a physical phone line.
Or,
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Could be connected to a sinking ship.  In the event of a shipwreck, a Surfman
standing
watch on a lookout will
first
need to observe the distressed vessel.  At that moment he initiate rescue protocol, signal the other men and hopefully make it to survivors.  Is the lookout structure the last thing touched before attending to an coastal emergency?
No…nothing I’ve come up with for these few lines has a perfect or satisfactory feel. *sigh*
How about a tree…as in a stand [of trees].  The word ‘stand’ has its less ocommon usage.  Something to consider.  The sayings “I wouldnt touch it with a ten-foot-pole,” or “I wouldnt touch you if you were the last on the planet” come to mind.  A telephone pole was first seen as one of a stand of trees.  If it is the last telephone pole in a particular line of poles like the end of a road, it would be last touched with every phone call to the house on the end..  Hmm.  That pole at the end of the road in Rodanthe does fit that description.
Maybe it fits from sitting at the bench at the end of Myrna Peters Rd.  The first telephone seen standing is the last touched when the nearest phone rings.  Phone booth neaby?

Hi Paul,
Most of us believe we’re looking for “confirmers” — visual clues near the casque site that are painted somewhere in the image.
For example, there might be some object — or something on a sign — near the burial site that has some detail from the suit of armor, like that “baseball” pattern on the left shoulder, or the hook hanging off of his right arm.  Or there could be some distinctive, clear outline in the stonework (although that might be harder to spot!).  We don’t know what it’ll be until we see it.  The image is all we have to go on.
This is the pattern that the other successful hunts took, so it’s likely we’ll see something like it in this one, too.
Thanks for joining in the hunt with us!

Paul Kitchen

What would you suggest I look for. I allways feel that each clue needs to lead to a physical thing or another clue that leads to another clue or physical thing. And, on and on and on.

More sign brainstorming…
Determination
Your goal
This isn’t from the Kitty Hawk quote. Does it have a message…? Maybe the goal is “Determination”, or:
Determine nation
Your goal
…in this case, the “nation” is England.
Ride the man of oz
The man of oz is Baum, meaning “tree”. How do you ride a tree…? In a dugout.
************************************************
As shecrab recently said, these verses aren’t necessarily in a logical order. The verse and the image will probably contain clues for the general area, and clues for a very specific spot, but it’s not easy to tell which is which. The line which most accurately pinpoints the location might be some cryptic hint in the middle of the verse, or even at the beginning.
The Hariot Trail seems to hold a lot of possible clues; almost too many. It seems to me there are various lines which could be interpreted as a cryptic hint for this or that sign. The question then is, is it practical to dig there, is there any obvious reference point like a wall or fence or pole. Is there a “site confirmer”, a picture of something specific close to the dig spot (which might possibly be disguised or hard to identify), and does the location seem to fit the instructions in the verse in a general way.
At the moment, the “overlook” is the only point where most of us have seen an overview. Can you see the “wing” from near any of the other signs…? I don’t think that should be regarded as absolutely essential, but it’s definitely a strong indicator. Alternatively, can you see something like a telegraph pole, even in the distance…? The cross shape and hanging wires seem to be a dominant idea in the image.
In terms of “site confirmers” in the verse, hints for a specific place given in the verse, I quite like the “window” idea and panes of glass…if any of these signs have panes of glass…? That’s something that appears in both the verse and the image.
(Thanks for your help and patience! It’s much appreciated.)

So what is under that armor?  Ive thought it was a giant flower with red petals.  Theres already a white flower depicted…why a second flower?  Or is it the red fabric of clothing, drapery, theater curtains, a parachute, balloon?

WhiteRabbit

I like the Hariot Trail, and info about the “missing sign”, if that’s what it was, would be interesting. But there’s not going to have been anything on it that would tell us where to dig, and there’s already enough reason to consider the overlook a possible dig site, so in a way it’s not all that significant.

That missing sign could be very significant, depending on what’s on it.  Best case scenario, the text says something about “last touched” or “first seen” or something to that effect.  Maybe an element or two from the image as site confirmers.

So what though? You can’t dig up the sign. If there’s somewhere to dig at the overlook, the clue for that is in the pic, and it’s something else.
So the sign could have more clues – well, there’s enough clues already. Whatever it said is irrelevant.

Again, this is pointing out the obvious, ad nauseum, but the only confirmed casque locations we know about had literal visual confirmers at the dig site (the wall and the fence).  If there was something on that sign that matches something in the image, that’s important.  If it doesn’t, no big deal — we can cross it off the unresolved issues list.
But hey, if you have all the answers, go dig up the casque already.

Paul Kitchen

The image on the left is exactly like that in the current park information. I do not know where the image on the right came from, however, it is a better representation of how the trail actually lies on the land. I think you are right that The Secret image does look like one or both of those pictured, but more like that on the left. I examined Harriot Trail again today. It does seem to loop, coming out at about the same point. I will be in the achives on Wed. so I will look for older documents, from 1981/2, that might show the trail then. I will also be looking at the armor that is there. Apparently, some armor was on display in the late 1970’s/early 80’s. I have lots of work to do! Best regards to all!

Great, thanks Paul. I found that other map
here
.
I like the Hariot Trail, and info about the “missing sign”, if that’s what it was, would be interesting. But there’s not going to have been anything on it that would tell us where to dig, and there’s already enough reason to consider the overlook a possible dig site, so in a way it’s not all that significant. The key is finding somewhere that looks plausible/practical and looking for possible visual confirmers at a spot where you could plant a spade.
I was wondering if it might have been possible to dig under that rail…does it extend much further…? I’d be interested to see some more photos of this area next time you visit…

I thought of how the football goal post is really just an example of something that looks like a ship mast.  The last thing touched may be a ship mast in the event of sinking.  Imagine the crew scrambling up it to avoid drowning.  The mast to a ship in distress would first be seen standing and once nearly completely sunk, it would be last touched before the sailor would need to swim for anything else that might keep him afloat.

I use to think this was a bench, something you see when standing but once sitting you don’t look directly at it.  Now I think its a football goal.
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
In overtime, the defending (making a stand – standing) loses the game when the opposing team has possession and succeeds in making a field goal kick.  When the teams are in position and the referee makes the signal to resume game, the defenders goal is the immediately or first vulnerable to being scored on, and should the ball touch the goal post but still pass through, then the condition of being last touched is met, since that scoring event signals the end of the game.  The answer to this riddle has to be a football goal post or in this case something which looks very similar, having a center post supporting a cross bar with extending upward on either side.

rookhunter

Forest, do you still have the pics you took of the site? I followed the links from 07 or so and they were no longe working.

Those had been posted on webshots, I think, but I removed them after a few years. Sometime soon I will find them and post them at my own website.
UPDATE: Found ’em:
http://www.kspot.org/trove/roanoke/
.

My favorite part of this Munchkin theory is that the practice drills in June-August actually require launching the buoy line through the practice mast exactly as if making a field goal.  I’m thrilled, but then I wonder how much sandy soil will need to be dug and if its even remotely possible to find a casque after several major storms in the past three decades.

Where white is in color
Blackbird is featured on the White album.  Blackbird = merle = Mirlo.
The Mirlo Rescue.

Fact relating to Wright Bros. Monument: three of the five witnesses of the First Flight were men of the Kill Devil Hills Life Saving Station.  They were responsible for the man power needed to drag the Flyer to the top of the hill.  The historic plaque at the Kill Devil Hills Life Saving Station (restored in 1986 and later relocated) describes the event and includes the names of the Surfmen.
Its a decent theory and by no means a stretch to consider that this verse, identifying with the Wright Bros. First Flight, also relates to other men at the neighboring Life Saving Station at Chicamacomico, the Midgetts.
It is also no stretch of the Imagination to consider that midgets relate to Oz or that a suit of armor minus the legs doesnt at least imply shortness.

Mica and driftwood are pieces of shipwreck.  Its Preiss’ way of speaking about historical events in this region of the Outer Banks.  Mica is latin for “crumb” or bits and pieces of a ship aka flotsam and jetsom.  Preiss couldn’t just say ‘pieces of shipwreck’ or this casque might be too easy.  Calling it mica and driftwood is just good enough to get people thinking about beaches.

Fox, the picture of Roanoke in P3 is concrete enough for me. Thematically, it’s the English picture, and Roanoke is all about early English settlement (Lost Colony, Elizabethan Gardens). V11 is strongly tied to both Roanoke and P3, and P3 is strongly tied to Roanoke both thematically and via the outline of the island. It’s a strong case.
If you mean tying P3 to something proximal to the casque… well, there you have me. There must be
something
, but I don’t know what it is, and it may be gone by now.

still mulling over the wording of this V:
“To mica and driftwood Under that Which may be last touched Or first seen standing…”
when worded this way…I again think of the bench which may have had driftwood underneath it when BP was around.  Also, last night I kept thinking over the “first seen standing” section of this V.  We may be taking this all wrong.  What if it isnt “what” that can be seen standing…ie.. a tree, pole, something-or-other, etc.. but what that can be seen when “you” stand from the bench?  Is that old gate leading to the beach visible from the bench…..or more importantly, visible only from a standing position by the bench?
we just Have to find something on site which is depicted in the P!!!

What you see when you stand up from the bench is pretty much what you see when sitting down – the rail, the weeds, the ocean… The foliage may have been different in the early 1980s. The gate is not visible from the bench, even though it is not far away, off to the left (west) if you are looking seaward.

forest_blight

If you mean tying P3 to something proximal to the casque… well, there you have me. There must be
something
, but I don’t know what it is, and it may be gone by now.

That, my friend, is exactly what I mean.  Just look at the 2 casques that have been found…their pix contained exact replicas of things nearby.
I too am feeling a bit

Unknown

Unknown:
In 2000 National Park Service archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar discovered rectangular-shaped objects buried beneath several feet of sand. (Park Service staff did not excavate the objects, but suspect they could be related to Hariot’s work.)
travwv – any updates or developments in your search? After reviewing this thread and the verse I’m quite convinced that the casque is there (somewhere in the Fort Raleigh Park near the gardens)

Hello everyone! I know it’s been ages since my last post.  Been busy so I thought I should check in.  After my trip to Ft. Raleigh, I made several attempts to contact the National Park Service via e-mail.  I had conversations with several employees, unfortunately the “Resource Manager” who apparently has authority over the park has not responded to any of my e-mails.
SoonerFan, your post is very interesting!  The spot where I am convinced the casque lies is indeed sandy, and it also happens to be on the trail named after Thomas Hariot! Armed with the information in your post, I will make an effort to contact the NPS again.  If they won’t arrange a dig, maybe they’ll at least give me access to that GPR data.
At any rate, to rejuvenate interest in this verse, here are some pics from my trip to tide you over.  Everyone should find the last 2 especially interesting!
http://mason.gmu.edu/~jparsley/secret/pic1.html

Cleveland Steve

Hi all, first post. I found what I think is a new reference to “July and August.” This YouTube video shows a sign directly outside the Waterside Theater with “July and August” on it. This new information probably won’t help in finding the casque, but you never know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rED8Dl_xk

I also found this out In July and August there are visible meteor showers and if you look at picture 3 you can see meteor showers.

Only have a minute and wanted to add to the “things hanging.” Hanging off a horizontal line to the right of the window is Roanoke Island (the land by the window). Just to the right of the island, and the only other thing hanging off that line, seems to be the Hariot Trail.

..and the key on the right appears to be attached to a magnet. If the right hand is raised this would pull the string and then the key would fall onto the handle of the spoon and flip the pea.
Hitting the larger bell?

wk

..and the key on the right appears to be attached to a magnet. If the right hand is raised this would pull the string and then the key would fall onto the handle of the spoon and flip the pea.
Hitting the larger bell?

Sounds very Rube Goldberg.

Paul Kitchen

I noted what looks like a pallisade with a cross above it. (See photo) Has anyone explored the connection to the pallisade that is around the Waterside Theater?

…sounds interesting, but I don’t have much idea what this area looks like. Would it be possible to take a few photos in a circle from your “two maps” location so we can see what you’re seeing…?
I’m particularly interested in the possibilities of the circle and square you suggested around the parking lot. (Are you saying it’s still possible to see the wing this far inland…?) There are plenty of circle and square hints in the image.
Each casque held a key. This key is hanging off a circle.
I’ve only just noticed what looks like a second metal object hanging to the left of it above. Might the three connections to this keyring represent three junctions from the circular road?
dauntless and inconquerable
Dauntless, or daring, reminds me of Dare Ave which runs alongside this circle and square.
Unfortunately Google maps has no access to these roads.  :-[

true, it would be very ridiculous if you had to dig in a certain season.  However, it just says gaze north… yes at the wing, i think that it’s just telling us that you need to be south of the wing… and it’s just a confirmer.  Now, if I knew that I should have dug in back of the bench!!! Darn!
By the way, I didn’t go to DC just for Roanoke Island, Roanoke wasn’t even the main reason… it was just a side trip.  I went to DC to see the sights, monuments, and history… ever since I saw the movie, National Treasure, I’ve wanted to go there.
-regulus

i’m pretty sure that there is only one bench of the kind I’m speaking of.  There are multiple stone benches, but not multiple stone benches with a backrest with a symbol on it.  Which matches the bottom half of the symbol on the Armor’s chest.  With the jewel right underneath it, symbolizing that the jewel is under the symbol.

State park. Arkansas.
http://www.craterofdiamondsstatepark.com/

That is true, rules differ. there is a park in tennesse or georgia or arkansas… where you are encouraged to dig for diamonds, and take home what you find Not sure if it is state or federal though
feel free to ask and prove me wrong…

I’ve always thought it would be fun to go to a dig for diamonds site.
Anyone know if the official rules are posted anywhere?

Kato, that’s exactly my point, and why I am so suspicious of this story I was fed. But even if the tree wasn’t the *real* CRO tree, there might have been *something* there (if the gardener is to be believed) that motivated BP to bury the casque there.
And yes, that is my memory of its location, but it is fading after 5 years. Anyone who goes there now can take my photo with them and confirm the precise spot.

Forrest:  Are you saying that you remember the Croatan or CRO tree was located inside the Elizabethan Gardens somewhere near the Sea Gate?   I like this idea very much, but you would think that there would be a marker or plaque today indicating where this historical tree once stood.  In my travels and research through both the Elizabethian Gardens and the National Historic Park I have never come across
any
markers or plaques referring to this tree.  In addition, the Visitors center in the National Historic Park has little information about the tree itself, or where it may have been located in the forrest.
Also , if the tree was still intact in 1981 when the casque was buried, then there has to be some record of where the tree was located.  If it was felled by a hurricane or other means after 1981, I would think that at least a local newspaper would have reported on it.  The tree  is after all, a significant historic artifact, and its loss would have been newsworthy.

regulus
i cant help you with the walk trough, but here is an older version ,of the layout of the park
i think early 90s. from stuff i have read, the history folks have only, messed with the fort
and they dug in the north end. if i was a betting person, i would think on the trail to the garden.
maybe the last marker before the garden. seems i read someplace those are the same.
sorry i cant be more helpful

I am vacationing to Washington DC in one week.  I am planning on taking a trip to Roanoke Island, right now the chance of that is about 90%.  So, if i do go, what should I look for?  I’ll take pictures of everything of course.
All I know is, I have to pass the WBM, and cross the Baum bridge into Roanoke Island, then do I head straight for the northern coast???
Could someone post a walkthrough of the verse to where we end up?  I’ll try out my flagpole/flag theory.
Thanks!
-regulus

regulus, long long time ago, i saw a map of the gardens and i remember a circle and square in that map, don’t have time to look now for that certain map, maybe someone has it already. i am still hooked on the lost colony part because of chief wingina in the picture. good luck and have fun!

slappybuns

regulus, long long time ago, i saw a map of the gardens and i remember a circle and square in that map, don’t have time to look now for that certain map, maybe someone has it already. i am still hooked on the lost colony part because of chief wingina in the picture. good luck and have fun!

On the map, posted of the area, the circle and the square were the
two parking lots – adjacent to the Theater Box Office.

and please poke right behind this:
http://flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461741232/
because the shape reminds me of the belt

Trohn

On the map, posted of the area, the circle and the square were the
two parking lots – adjacent to the Theater Box Office. (Trohn)
and please poke right behind this:
http://flickr.com/photos/gtstuff/461741232/
because the shape reminds me of the belt (slappy)

Might want to look for a
path
that beckons to the beach behind the theater.  Something on the path may be last touched or first seen standing.  Know which way is north so you can find the wing.

as far as we know reg…the rest of the book is simply fluff.  There were a couple of things that raised some eyebrows but I believe the majority here feels that the P/V is all that is needed.
Have a great time and take LOTS of pix.  As we always say to the fortunate soul treading ground perhaps holding a casque, “You never know what you did not see but one of us picked out in your pictures.”
dang, did that make any sense?  Just take lots of pix and have a blast.

All right – go to someone!  Unfortunately, i’m moving from Md back west as we speak, so I’m not headed back to Manteo island in the foreseeable future.
Not sure how many folks have been to the Elizabethan gardens – i got the distinct impression that if someone is not there to appreciate the gardens/flowers/trees/etc., then they are probably not welcome.  No offense to anyone who works there or knows someone that works there, but the ladies running the Gardens don’t seem to brook any nonsense.  Like catherwood said, maybe the maintenace or groundskeeping.

Paul Kitchen

I have noted that there are quite a few flag poles in the park. I was wondering it the “Which may be last touched or first seen standing” might be a flag pole.

WhiteRabbit

I finally got a copy of the play. As you say, there’s nothing that leaps out, though the most obvious “last touched” is a flag. (“Two soldiers with muskets lead the procession, followed by Bennett with the flag.”) I guess that might also pass for “first seen standing”. I wondered about the flagstones or “flags” that appear in the image.

Seems possible…
Any resemblance between the flagpoles and the cords/loops in the pic…?

Greetings from a brand-newbie to The Secret and treasure hunting in general.  The current thinking really fits in well with the verse.  I haven’t been to the Thomas Hariot Trail (or the Elizabethan garden gate access) yet, but the phrase “Under that which may be last touched or first seen standing” could refer to something that is touched by the sun.  If there’s anything tall on/near the beach, it would be the last thing touched by the sunset and first seen with the sunrise.

MrSeabass

If I have nothing to contribute, then I do not bring it up. I’ve never claimed that anything works. Nice attempt at an Ad Hominem.

I don’t have anything against you. I don’t even mind trying to understand your point of view. If I had the freedom to delete the majority of my posts, I would, since they’ve not met the standard for being discussion worthy or I’ve moved on to something more preferable. All I hope to see out of these forums is that an idea, even one that don’t seem worthy at the time, falls in line with the right circumstance and graduates to become a concrete part of a casque discovery. I’ve had many and continue to have conflicts with folks here, but that doesn’t cause my ego any injury and I’m not here to hurt anyone’s feelings. I’ve learned a lot of respect for people in the process and found it valuable to know their criticism and see what kind of theory they’re working at.
Surprisingly, less people are on the same page than it might seem. Sometimes, we must have differences, because some pieces of the puzzles are missing or there are categorical elements that have yet to be tested. In the four years that I’ve been challenging my own assumptions, I believe there’s been real progress by many of the folks here. They’ve been testing the ideas shared in forum. It may be that nothing I’ve dredged up has anything to do with that progress…and that’s okay with me; I’m just happy to offer my support and represent my struggle to meet Byron’s challenge in the best way that I know.
I’m sure you have strong opinions about something in how these puzzles work. You should share more so we can understand where you’re coming from. Claiming something works isn’t exactly a claim that something is correct. I see it more as an idea that you might have about the puzzle and how some verifiable evidence supports it. For example, you feel sure that the word ‘White’ represents John White, grandfather to Virginia Dare, and you’ve followed some interpretation to a place near the Dare memorial, therefore you might conclude that the Dare memorial works for your idea. Discovery is a more interesting process when you’ve worked out your ideas to some extent and then stop to consider whats going on in the context you’ve landed yourself in.
I had my own idea about the puzzle that involved a Dare reference. I think the Wright memorial is important to the puzzle. It represents the achievement of flight through determination and faith. I saw the roadside sign south of Roanoke as you enter Rodanthe and it said “Dare to dream the impossible dream”. Thats a quote from the 1965 song The Quest, used in Peter O’Tool’s Man of La Mancha. Its essentially the same message as the Wright memorial. See the lyrics and you’ll understand. The sign obviously is a nod to Virginia Dare and I verified it was pre-existing to 1981 and so there is a possibility for a connection. There is no certainty that we move into or past Roanoke as one might travel along hwy-12. The verse says “theres a road that leads to dark forest”, which may suggest Roanoke and the Lost Colony, but does that mean we TAKE that road or simply note that it is THERE as we continue a journey south towards Pea Island and beyond where we might encounter this Dare sign? Its an idea that works for me at the moment. I have found a practice structure shaped like a large T, known as the Chicamacomico Wreck Pole. That works because it echoes the visual of an armored practice dummy. The Wreck Pole is a dummy ships mast used for practice drills in July and August. Its at the end of Laura Ln next to Midgett Dr. I still like the idea that man of oz is a reference to a Munchkin or midget.

Unknown

Unknown:
You should share more so we can understand where you’re coming from.

This. Surely you have more to offer than telling erexere how stupid you think his idea are. I mean, we already know THAT.

Euhirudinea

This. Surely you have more to offer than telling erexere how stupid you think his idea are. I mean, we already know THAT.

R….you dog.

John White was one of the main settlers sent to Roanoke Island.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/W/White-J12.asp
He was an artist, and produced some of the earliest paintings of the New World.  Perhaps if one of his paintings is on display somewhere, you could say that “White is in color.”

Have I found the missing Hariot sign?????
Ooooooh, I really do hope so!
Forest blight, I thought for sure you were going to come back with one of your own fabulous pictures and show us all this sign is still standing.  Are you our only pair of eyes out there?  I captured the image out of a pdf I found on the internet and saved to my computer a while back.  I didn’t think of it til now. It’s from an administrative history of the fort raleigh site done in 2003.  Honestly the only picture in it I thought was relevant to the hunt is this one.  These reports are rather boring but maybe you can find the doc again at the national park service site (nps.gov).  I think there was a photo of the visitor’s center and the fort but there was nothing else about the Hariot Trail in it.  Trouble is, since it’s from a pdf and such low resolution, I can’t enlarge it to read it and that is disappointing.
You make a good point about the wing.  Although I do think there is an excellent chance the casque is at the end of the Hariot Trail, since there is little else to confirm this for now and some great ideas coming from the gardens, I wanted to delve further into the other path inside the gardens that also beckons to the “gaze”bo and then the beach. To me the shape of the front gate entrance looks a little like the “belt” or bottom portion of the suit of armor in the illustration upside down.  If someone tells me I can stand at the marker and see the EG gates from that spot, then I think the poem will still make sense to pursue it this way.  Anyone else know more about what we can see from that marker?

I might have it!!!
Under that which may be last touched (by the sunset)  or first seen standing (in the morning, sunrise).  The flag!!! I don’t know if it’s an american flag, or a flag dedicated to the lost colony or what!  But the flag is lowered at night, unless illuminated, and it’s the first thing standing in the morning!
Sorry if this has already been mentioned…
Anyone know of any flag poles there?

regulus

i’m gonna rephrase the verse just for a sec…
there is a place,
with two maps
after circle and square
(this would be the place with the bench and posts and sign and view.)
ok so we’re here now,  where to now?
In July and August
A path beckons (there is a path).
To mica and driftwood (to the beach)
Under that (dig under that)
Which may be last touched (which “MAY” be last touched by the sunrise)
Or first seen standing (???)
Look north at the wing (look north at the Wright Brothers Memorial)
And dig (and get that casque!)
so when it is phrased this way that means that we have to go somewhere from the bench/sign area.  This is not the end yet.
thoughts?  we’re pretty close to this one. i don’t think that the marker is gone yet.
-regulus

Is there a flagpole near here???

The flag idea is a good one, reg. I don’t remember if there were flags in the Ft. Raleigh area, but there could have been. There probably were one or two at the visitors center.

Yes, that’s nice thinking on the flag idea.  I can’t recall seeing any in photos, except possibly above the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens I think, but will be keeping it in mind.
I’d like to share a photo with you all and get your opinion but I’ve never done this before so please bear with me if I don’t get it right.  It’s a picture of a rather large sign on the Thomas Hariot Trail.  I can’t tell where it is located, could be at the beginning or at the end but thought it might be a clue to the missing sign by the beach.  Maybe not, but here goes….

To all who have visited the site, I have a question.
When you are standing at the Virginia Dare trailmarker what can you see from that spot around you?  Can you see the entrance to the Eliz. Gardens?  Anything at the Waterside Theater in the distance?  The headquarters building?  Really trying to think outside the box and wondering if just because a trail beckons does that mean we have to follow it?  What if we stood at the marker and looked for that which may be last touched or first seen?

ferrymaiden – where did you find that figure??? That sign no longer exists, but I would love to take a gander at the source of the figure.
And that is a good idea about the Dare marker. I can’t remember what is visible from that spot. It is right next to the visitor’s center, if I remember. Ft. Raleigh is quite close to it, not too far behind it. Trouble is, you can’t see the “wing” mentioned in the verse anywhere except from the beach, if we interpret it to mean the Wright Brothers memorial.

I have placed all my Roanoke pictures in my Webshots account. Perhaps you guys can spot something I couldn’t:
http://community.webshots.com/user/quantpsy/
One thing I noticed while uploading was that the bench in IMG_0813 (in the Elizabethan Garden) bears a pattern much like that on the knight’s pectoral in Image 3:

Very wise comments, 2fast.

Sonoran

Where I disagree is the use of these literary links. I think we have to be careful when using literary quotes for a location solve. As far as I know the literary references and quotes in the verses have not taken us to a location. If they have or if they ever do, will it be coincidence or a pattern (part of the formula) to rely on for solutions?

First, I agree that we need to be careful with the literary quotes.  I think we may be getting misguided with the fact that we have found some passages in very obscure books using tools that were not available in 1981.  The author is quoted as saying he thought the casques would be found fairly quickly.  I don’t think he ever intended on us having to match up quotes from a book that would not have been widely available, unless there were hints or pointers leading us to that book.  However, this is not a literary quote.  It matches something that was etched on a monument, which brings me to…
Second, go back and review the solutions for the two that have been found.  Verse 4 (Cleveland Solve) – Socrates, Pindar, Apelles –>  These names in the poem were found etched on a monument near the dig site and were used as part of the solve.  Verse 12 (Chicago Solve) – Where M and B are set in stone –>  If I remember right Mozart and Beethoven were found etched on a building near the dig site and used as part of the solve.
With this being the case on solved casques, I don’t think you can just dismiss the matching of lines from this verse with the Kitty Hawk monument.  I’d have to go back and look, but for the solved verses, I think the references were basically the starting point for which to journey to the dig site.  For this verse, it appears that the same holds true.

Did I read a website wrong?  I thought I just saw that the Kitty Hawk monument was built in 2003.  Couldn’t find info to verify on another site. Does anyone know?

Nono!!!  The big 60-foot monument (that holds the inscription) was erected on Kill Devil Hills dune
long
before 2003. As far as I could find, it was put up shortly after the Government stabilized the dune at Kill Devil Hills in
1927
–they had to keep the dune from migrating, and when they finally decided to do that, they also put up the monument. It was there in 1963 because that’s when the airstrip was added to the site, and one of the buildings.
There was a Centennial celebration in December 2003, to mark the 100th anniversary of the flight, and at that time a smaller OBELISK was erected, like the one that used to be there but was moved to Kitty Hawk. There was a newspaper article that talked about that celebration and the smaller monument.
In fact, this large monument is visible for miles and miles–as the only thing ‘standing’ on the beach. Could this be the “first seen standing” thing? The big monument sits right on the dune…it would be fairly easy to dig around it.
Here’s the info from Dayton’s library:
http://home.dayton.lib.oh.us/archives/w … 20009.html
Also…could this be “after circle and square” ?  The big circle is the circle around the big monument. Note that after the circle and the square, is the airstrip.

New here
and a fellow NC’er….
I know there’s some concern about erosion shifting/displacing the casque, but
wouldn’t it almost be safe to say that Preiss when placing them took these
facts into consideration? And also into consideration that the images/verses possibly
wouldn’t spawn any immediate results? He did after all protect the casques in
boxes, seems like he considered them being there for years.

It is difficult to say. Preiss is on record as saying he thought they would all be solved within months.

There’s various ancient-looking statuary – but I can’t recall any tie to Julius & Augustus Ceasar.  In the sunken garden are four statues – Apollo, Diana, Venus, Jupiter – Roman gods (at least V. & J.).
Totally unrelated, but something I didn’t catch while I was there back in March, was the Ancient Live Oak in the gardens.  Apparently, this oak has been there since the founding of the colony back in 1585.  Guess I shouldn’t have carved “The Secret” in it when I was there!  just kidding.

Unknown

Unknown:
Why are we even arguing this?

Hey…I’m NOT arguing. I’m only stating the obvious (to me) which is that there is more than one verse that fits a casque in the same area!  You can AS EASILY (not EXCLUSIVELY!) use V. 11 as you can the other verse for the same general area and the SAME PICTURE.
Until a casque gets dug up or identified, I’m putting MY money on the other interpretation. Split hairs or not.

Trohn – I looked closely at all of those markers, hoping to see some mention of mica, but alas…

I would like to share my opinions… I think positively that this first part of the verse is done, and lead us to Roanoke… (as exposed over this thread)
Pass two friends of octave
In December
Ride the man of oz
To the land near the window
There’s a road that leads to
Dark forest
Where white is in color
With two maps
After circle and square
In July and August
Here is where I see more options (Dare Av, Fort Raleigh, Elizabethan Gardens, Harriot trail, others?) all of them ending in the shore (most likely to see the wing in wright memorial)
A path beckons
To mica and driftwood
Under that
Which may be last touched
Or first seen standing
Look north at the wing
And dig
To achieve
Let me to show you a new one “path” I think no mentioned before:
Pear Pad Road
and what is remarkable over this path? ok:
Have a pear shape and I link inmediatly with de Pea-spoon
There is a very small familiar cemetery
http://files.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/cemeteries/dough01.txt
with graves
http://www.usgwarchives.org/nc/dare/photos/dough1.html
(possible reference to mica?)
This path ends in the shore
So, this cemetery could explain the cross in the pic3.
At the end of the Path, there is a odd objet in the shore and “
may be the last touched
“
I think We need more clues from pic in order to determine the exact spot to dig.
I hope one of you might explore this area soon…

fox

hmmm, never saw these guys before.  Wonder what they are doing hanging out in the E Gardens…

One of them have a fork… maybe looking for a pear (inside yellow circle?) over a pear path (pear pad rd) in red

i was at the fort first time 83,91,2004, i can not remember being able to
see to kills, as it is 3-5 miles away from where fort is. thats looking across the sound
to kills. link to a look see for size of plane and monument
http://gallery.timaltman.com/v/trips/ob … 9.JPG.html
click next four or five times. so maybe v-11 is not the v for pic.
unless you start at fort and work your way to kills

if that peaspoon is for pea island, what is the other object?  there’s not much east of pea island.  i saw where the boiler from a wreck is still above water, east of pea island and south……
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr … ref=slogin

The only problem with the Pea Spoon theory is that BP did not have these aerial views when he wrote the book. I find it difficult to believe that he had ANY aerial views, in fact.The satellite pics that Google earth and other programs use now were not in use then by ordinary folk like us.
Anything that relies on aerial views to match up with parts of the images I am suspicious of automatically–unless it’s something that could be seen from the top of a tower. Unfortunately, the road shapes that Eljayo has shown us cannot.
Also—the “two friends of octave” was thought to be referencing the idea that the Wrights were friends of
Octave Chanute
, not anything to do with Route 12, though “friends” is a term applied VERY loosely here. They met, that is certain…but friends? I doubt it. This makes me doubt the match of this v. and p. 3.
And I do not believe one can see the memorial from Roanoke Island either–it would be lost in mists on the nicest days, even if it were tall enough to be seen from that far off, which it isn’t. This is one of the reasons I began to doubt the whole solution.

Unknown

Unknown:
The only problem with the Pea Spoon theory is that BP did not have these aerial views when he wrote the book. I find it difficult to believe that he had ANY aerial views, in fact.The satellite pics that Google earth and other programs use now were not in use then by ordinary folk like us.

Unknown

Unknown:
Anything that relies on aerial views to match up with parts of the images I am suspicious of automatically–unless it’s something that could be seen from the top of a tower. Unfortunately, the road shapes that Eljayo has shown us cannot.

Unknown

Unknown:
And I do not believe one can see the memorial from Roanoke Island either–it would be lost in mists on the nicest days, even if it were tall enough to be seen from that far off, which it isn’t. This is one of the reasons I began to doubt the whole solution.

As I said before…. no needed aerial photos, just a road map. but again… I have aerial pic since 60’s available in any geographical book.
Let me ask you… why this road is called “pear pad” is a recent name (post google aerial images?)? I don’t think so… this road have a pear shape and surely named long time ago.
Its possible to see the shore line from Roanoke (see FB pics) and I think is only a confirmer that you are in the right spot (monument at north) … no need to see the monument clearly

boogs

Neat trick with the yellow x FB. Can you put it on the beach beyond the square parking lot and the end of Dare Ave?

Ha! I wish I could, but I didn’t put it there. If you visit the park, you’ll see a clearing with a gigantic, vivid, bright yellow X on the ground.
shecrab – you can indeed see the memorial from Roanoke. It’s small on the horizon, yes, but its elevation is such that if you know where to look, there is no doubt about it.
There seems to be some confusion over the Route 12 reference. It is only the word “December” that was suggested to reference Route 12. The “friends of octave” part was thought to be strictly a reference to Octave Chanute. If one drives along Route 12, though, one
passes
quite close to the Wright Brothers (friends of octave) Memorial.
As to whether they were friends, from wikipedia we have:
“Chanute was in contact with the Wright brothers from 1900, when Wilbur Wright wrote to him after reading Progress in Flying Machines. Chanute helped to publicise the Wright brothers’ work, and provided consistent encouragement, making several visits to their camp near Kitty Hawk. Chanute freely shared his knowledge about aviation with anyone who was interested and expected others to do the same. This led to friction with the Wright brothers, who wanted to protect their invention with patents. The friendship was still impaired when Chanute died in 1910, although Wilbur Wright delivered the eulogy at Chanute’s funeral.”
From other sites, we have letters back and forth between the Wrights and Chanute:
http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/i/Wrights/library/Chanute_Wright_correspond/Chan-Wright-1900.html
http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/inventors/i/Wrights/library/Chanute_Wright_correspond/1908/Chan-Wright-1908.html
From yet another site, we have:
“The Wright Brothers received their copy of Octave Chanute’s book personally from the author, who became both their friend and advisor.  At their invitation, Chanute visited the Wrights at Dayton, Ohio, and Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and it was Octave Chanute who, at a meeting in December, 1903, of the American Association for the Advancement of Science announced to the world that the Wright Brothers had flown in an heavier than air machine. Wilbur Wright wrote: ‘If he (Chanute) had not lived, the entire history of progress in flying would have been other than it has been, for he encouraged not only the Wright Brothers to persevere in their experiments, but (his) private correspondence with experimenters in all parts of the world was of great volume.  No one was too humble to receive a share of his time.  In patience and goodness of heart, he has rarely been surpassed.  Few men were more universally respected and loved.'”
From another we get: “Chanute was a mentor to Wilbur and Orville Wright and very influential in the early days of flight exploration.”
These were from the first 6 hits when I searched Google for “Octave Chanute” along with “Wright.” I’m sure I could find more.

FB, I know…I found those also by googling. However, as I said earlier, I’m a bit of a WB buff–and have a few books at home, and have visited the family homes, and quite a few other locations. Also, I’ve got a personal bio/account, (autographed, no less!) by a man named Fisk, who
was
a personal friend of the family (mentioned in the will). It’s odd, but if these accounts on google are correct, you’d think there’d be a mention of Chanute in
that
book–it’s not 100% comprehensive, but it’s definitely a good personallized account and talks about many of the people who knew the Wrights–and there isn’t. Chanute was not present at the first flight in December.
I realize they knew each other.  But their friction was significant.  Chanute did not even meet them until after the first flight, sometime in 1904.  Instead, they kept writing, but soon began to disagree over details of the newspaper accounts and other things–and in fact fell into a long period where they did not speak or write at all until 1908. (That would make sense in the light of what I have read and why he isn’t mentioned in any of it.) As for the latter correspondence, it appears that Wilbur did feel that their relationship had been a friendship, because he calls it that.  However, they never really reconciled before Chanute died. I don’t think it was for lack of trying on Wilbur’s part, though.
So I dunno whether I’d say they were friends–maybe–maybe not. I guess it’s how you look at it—and when.