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18. Milwaukee Revisted – Shhh… The Secret Podcast

by | Jun 23, 2019 | 0 comments

Season 02 Episode 04

Milwaukee Revisited

Give us any chance – we’ll take it, Read us any rule – we’ll break it, We’re gonna make our dreams come true… Depressed on a park bench!
Join John and George as they drown their sorrows, slide down hillsides, and wonder what locals are talking about when they say “We’re going to the beach” in Milwaukee.

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George Ward
Hey guys welcome to the secret podcast podcast where we talk about whatever we want because it’s our podcast, not yours. I’m joined today with Brett and with John John and I just got back from a trip to Milwaukee where we did a little bit of looking around. John as you enjoy your trip.

Fenix
I don’t know how I enjoy the trip, George. I wasn’t expecting that question.

George Ward
That’s how conversations work. Shawn, you don’t always know what I’m going to say.

Fenix
I know I’m spaced out and it’s Microsoft’s end the year and we got like a week left to close everything out, but I’ll start fresh. I was pleasantly surprised by Milwaukee. It wasn’t a hellhole.

George Ward
Yeah, I’ve always thought Milwaukee was this depressing hellhole. And I mean, it was kind of nice. It was fun. When I got there. I pictured like, all I could see was how beautiful the place would be at Christmas. It was almost like every Christmas movie you’ve ever seen where people like go home to their parents and there’s snow everywhere and Christmas lights. Milwaukee looks like that.

Fenix
We were in a really nice area in Milwaukee. Yeah, you guys seem

Brett Zingler
like you were having fun. You were texting me. You’re taking pictures. You were digging hunting. Got to hang out with each other.

Fenix
Yeah, we saw like one street and the park. Oh, that was about it.

George Ward
Yeah. That’s about it. And an Ace Hardware. I was cool.

Fenix
We left a couple of shuffles for presents.

George Ward
Oh, that’s nice. So that’s how I would like we we both flew into Milwaukee. We got there at the exact same time. Almost. I think John got there, like a half hour before me.

Fenix
Yeah, I think it was only like 15 minutes after I got in when you arrived.

George Ward
Yeah. And then he had to come find me. We couldn’t. We couldn’t order any tools to be delivered. So I had to bring all of my own tools which kind of shocked John.

Fenix
Yeah, it wasn’t expecting that. I don’t know how I expect you know, a guy to carry a shovel or probe on a plane. But you know, when your your luggage came around the carrier saw there was a probe sticking out of the bag with the end taped up. Yeah. It wasn’t expecting

Brett Zingler
that. As long as you check it, right.

Fenix
Yeah, I suppose. Right. But you got to experience what Byron experienced right? Didn’t he? Did he take a five foot shovel on a plane or some crazy rumor like that?

George Ward
People say there was like a six foot pair of was it posthole diggers that he carried around or a six foot shovel? So yeah, I mean, that was that was kind of it was just this four foot probe sticking out of a duffel bag. It was really, really easy. People have people have talked about like, how can you carry the shovel on a plane? It wasn’t difficult.

Fenix
Yeah, no one asked any questions? No, not a couple of weird looks. But

George Ward
when I first checked the bag, the lady was like, What is this? And I was like it’s a it’s a solid steel rod. She

Brett Zingler
thought it was a rifle barrel. Because it was just taped up. You could really tell. That was the only question I got. I’m glad they clarified that little known fact. My family is all from Fond du Lac, which is not too far from there. So I’m actually a fan of Milwaukee. I’ve been there a bunch and I enjoy it. And they have a lot of good beer there.

George Ward
Which helps, so I didn’t get any of that. You tried the beer. John, do you like it?

Fenix
Yeah, I can’t remember what I got for beer. I believe I got some Highlife from Florida and some three Floyds which is what Indiana?

George Ward
Okay. Yeah, the one local one at that lunch place. The one where my glass came with lipstick on it.

Fenix
That was that was the local Diet Coke. That’s my that’s my go to beverage when they don’t have Diet Mountain Dew.

George Ward
This is captivating conversation. Yeah,

Fenix
they did. They did pour a mean Diet Coke at the lunch spot.

Brett Zingler
So did you got Okay, so Rumor has it that you guys got to sit down while you were there and talk a little bit about your differing views of of what you found and what what you thought of just in general about the about the puzzle how it relates to Milwaukee? Yeah, we

George Ward
spent about three days there. And the majority of the time we were in the park and on the last day we we sort of sat down and compiled our our thoughts. We did just sort of a walk through the entire park. It’s and we recorded it for the podcast. So a little later. We’ll just play it and it’s basically just raw audio of our thoughts as we walk through the week. hear people might appreciate knowing or hearing, you know, to people, while they’re literally just walking through their ideas. Cool.

Brett Zingler
I’m intrigued.

Fenix
Yeah, it’s definitely definitely interesting, you know, because I think, you know, when you look at the some of the stuff that’s happening on the forums or Facebook, whatnot, you know, there’s this tiptoeing, and people have to agree with each other all the time. And I never thought that that for the hunt that much. No one’s challenging the theories, right? They’re just like, oh, yeah, great job. You know, good job. You have a theory too. You ever solve for 12? spots as well?

George Ward
Right? Exactly. If if if you just agree with that idea, and you don’t challenge it, it doesn’t help push the idea forward. It doesn’t help take away bad ideas and find the gems. Well, it’s also rare when two people actually get to go on site, go hunting, spend a couple of days, you know, look at looking through all the information, then kind of Huddle up about it at the end, right. We’re all almost always just collaborating online. And there’s certain rules and etiquette that we follow. But that this is cool. This will this will be fun. I’m looking forward to it. Yeah. It’s also like one of the good things about it as John and I, we don’t agree on really, we don’t really agree on anything about this puzzle. Like I’ve always been very simple. The verse tells you exactly what to do. John thinks the verse is more of a puzzle. He thinks there’s more, you know, there’s a little bit more going on, then what’s on the surface. So we had a good bit of fun arguing about that as well. Nice, nice, good.

Brett Zingler
Maybe he and I are in the same camp then.

George Ward
So why don’t we just play that now? We’ll play the whole conversation for everybody. Let’s do it. Okay, that’s good. So before we play this for everybody, I want to read the Milwaukee verse just so because we don’t really go line by line when we’re talking about this. So I want you to, I want you to know what the verse is. So the verse starts out, view the three stories of Mitchell as you walk the beating of the world, at a distance in time, from three who lived there, at a distance in space. From woman with harpsichord silently playing, step on nature, cast and copper, ascend the 92 steps. After climbing the grand 200 paths, the compass and reach the foot of the culvert. Below the bridge, walk 100 paces southeast over rockin soil to the first young birch, pass three staying West, you’ll see a letter from the country of Wonder stones hearth, on a proud tall fifth at its southern foot. The treasure waits.

Fenix
I thought that was the Montreal verse.

George Ward
That’s Montreal did what? Hey, you guys

Fenix
where do we start with Milwaukee?

George Ward
I don’t know. Like Alright, so the walk that I took yesterday I just I walked through the entire verse and it seemed really really straightforward until the end right you started Mr. Hall, you walk past the you walk essentially to where Lincoln meets oak leaf trail. Yeah, and then you start on Oak Leaf trail, but you stay to the like the oak leaf trail either go into the park or around the park. So you obviously have to I think like the reason that it’s that it’s pulled the way it is in the verse which I should bring up right now because that would be smart.

Fenix
And you you’re kind of getting a head head of yourself to write so you start at Mitchell but there are specific instructions to take Kenwood right the being and then the three that lived there the three streets that are named after people and also I believe it was summit summit used to be

George Ward
Third Avenue. I’m not sure one of them used to be Third Avenue. Yeah,

Fenix
so three and three people mean that’s a pretty good clue. You kill four streets with one one line Yeah. Why the extra 14 lines waving you through the park?

George Ward
And I mean I still like I think you explained it to me earlier the at a distance and space distance and time

Fenix
Yeah, and I don’t know that that’s correct. But I mean, if you look at a distance and time that could be referencing summit being third you know, a time ago and then a distances in space is the space that you travel to the park. Yeah. And then you get Henrietta or Marietta. I’m sorry, is it Mariana Henrietta

George Ward
are the distance and time referring to the people who lived there? Like the streets are named after the people who live here but you know, they lived here at a time ago. They don’t live here now.

Fenix
But I mean, how crazy was this guy’s knowledge? If he thought an obscure painting, self portrait of Mary had a robust D, playing a harpsichord that’s housed in Italy? Yeah. I mean, I’m fine. And you’re gonna rough, you’re gonna find the street based on that. Yeah. And it’s a cool clue. But what

George Ward
I mean, he had to have some sort of obscure knowledge, right, like, because I’m in Milwaukee now. And there’s no way I would know, these three street names are named after anyone important. Unless someone would, you know, would have told me that. I don’t even know. Like, if it’s important enough to where people in the neighborhood would know who they’re named

Fenix
after, like in Milwaukee. history buff would know that. Yeah. And maybe that was his target audience. Right.

George Ward
That’s possible. That’s possible. We would put things in the verses where if you knew a lot about the city, you were from you would, you know, automatically pick up on something. Yeah. So it’s maybe not meant for the wider audience, but it’s meant for somebody who lives there who would know. Yeah,

Fenix
the one cool thing I had always heard about the painting as that it was housed at Pabst Theater. But I can find nothing stating that that’s true.

George Ward
I haven’t been able to find that either. But even so like, perhaps theaters, it’s nowhere near where you’re at. Right. But it’s important to get walk. It’s important in Milwaukee, but there’s a lot of things that are important to Milwaukee. Sure. And it’s that would be an obscure thing, in that it’s nowhere and it’s nowhere along your path. It’s well out of your way. So why

Fenix
I’d feel better about it. Just personally if it if it wasn’t tied to my walk.

George Ward
If it was in the Pabst Theater, yeah. Okay, it would fit. I can’t find anything about it being there. But I haven’t looked super hard.

Fenix
Yeah, I’m not sure. But you made a great point about Lincoln and Oak Leaf trail. You know, there’s two, two places where that intersects and enters the park. Is he calling out multiple entrances? You know, we we have the question of locus, right? Everyone looks at that blurred blob on the painting and calls it a locus?

George Ward
Yeah, I think people don’t know what a locus to look like,

Fenix
oh, no, I mean, I can I can see it. It may be a stretch. It may be a whole lot clearer up close when it’s not that tall.

George Ward
Yeah, that’s, that’s where I would give it to you. It could be a lot different looking in the actual painting. But yeah, I mean, it tells you to step on nature casting copper, which we know is the oak leaf trail and Lincoln. Know when you step on nature, like when you’re walking down, Kenwood, you’re gonna come to the oak leaf trail first, before you Well, I guess it’s at the intersection where Lincoln is in there. But if you’re walking on the on the sidewalk, there’s no sidewalk down Lincoln, like it’s gonna take you directly to the oak leaf trail, and you’re going to be at y, like, like a V intersection, where you can either enter the center of the park where the picnic areas are, or you can continue around the left to

get outside. Yeah, like Yeah. And

logically, if you were walking down Kenwood and you came to that, you’re going to take a right and head straight into the park.

Fenix
And that’s what I don’t get. I think you’re right on with that. Why in the hell I mean, is it just because it’s such a prominent feature, the staircase that he had to include it?

George Ward
Well, I think you wanted to you to go down a specific path, right? And if you weren’t a hanger right at Oak Leaf trail, you’re gonna get lost. Like that’s a winding trail. It’s much easier to say, hey, continue down casting copper, continue down on Lincoln, until you get to the stairs. Because once you get to the stairs, there’s only two ways you can go. You can go right or you can go left. Like once you’re at the top of the stairs. Yeah, sure. Sure. And then you’ve got me you got the ascend the 92 steps after climbing, ascend the 92 steps, then after climbing the grand 200 repass the compass and reach. Yeah, right. So once you get to that intersection, I mean, you would have to you would have to know where the lighthouse is, but you just hang a left and it’s a straight shot. There’s no other real way you can go.

Fenix
Assuming the compasses the lighthouse. Yeah, but

George Ward
there’s nothing else that can. There’s really not like, I know the wiki says that the compass there’s there is a compass on what’s the WikiHouse Okay, so a prevalent theory is there’s there’s a Mason’s compass on the lamppost with the letter G, which stands for geometry, and that you’re supposed to pass that’s off to the right, you’re supposed to pass that but I don’t buy it because that’s on every single lampposts out there. Like if it’s not a new metal lamppost. There’s one of those on everything. are one of them.

Fenix
Agreed? I think the one thing that caught me by surprise is I assumed you had to climb 92 steps and take it I must not have been paying attention to the liver and and surely song on Expedition unknown, right? And then climb those two seas. But the seas are part of the 92. Yeah. Yeah. So

George Ward
the way I take it is I missed that completely until we got here. The way I take it is there’s a pause, ascend the 92 steps. Okay, do that. Now, after climbing the grand 200.

Fenix
Good point. And that’s a great way to read. And Graham’s important, yeah, calls out the staircase, right?

George Ward
surpass the compass and reach the foot of a culvert. So this is where you and I differ, right? I’m taking the stupid simple approach, right, you get to what is. So you’ve got, you’ve got a bunch of lions, right? Before you get to the there’s eight lions before right around the lighthouse. So you count them, like we count things normally, right to left, front to back, or left, I’m sorry, we count them left or right.

Fenix
I think that’s been the issue. And everybody’s everyone’s counting right to left, and I count left, right,

George Ward
so you walk up to the line and the one on the left is number one, the one on the right is number two. Then the next set, the one on the left is number three, then number four. The next set, the one on the left is number five, and number six, and number six is directly across from the lighthouse. Right? As soon as you pass the lighthouse, you get to number six, there’s a path that leads you down. Yeah, down. So the next the next line is past the compass and reach the foot of the culvert. Everybody always thinks the foot of a culvert is the bottom of the but it’s not. It’s the top, at least in my opinion. Like if you’re talking about the foot of a bridge, it’s the edge of a bridge. You’re talking about the foot of a culvert. It’s the edge of the culvert.

Fenix
I have no idea. I honestly don’t. I mean, to me, the culverts, the pipe sticking out of the ground somewhere where water’s running out. But my biggest problem with this is he just named seven streets. All of a sudden you get to the top of the stairs, and you magically transport to the lighthouse. What happened there? Why did He mean so many streets and then we’re jumping to a lighthouse just because it says compass. That that that’s just flawed to me. And maybe it’s by design? Maybe I’m missing something, but it just seems slightly unusual?

George Ward
I don’t I don’t think it matters, right? I don’t think

Fenix
so. I started assignments. Oh, okay,

George Ward
so So Well, I think that’s important. I was talking more about the reach. No, I

Fenix
get what you’re saying. You’re saying it doesn’t matter that we get to the top of the stairs and then jump to the lighthouse. But I say it does because you pass Walcott there. Yeah, but, but there’s a line. And we may argue about this one to the country line. Yeah, it has to be well cut now. And by the way, Walcott is huge, because they’re the people that didn’t know

George Ward
that is a big ass monument. I thought it was smaller. But it was much more I thought it was life size.

Fenix
I thought it was I picture to be like, 1010 foot tall. And maybe I’m just a short guy. But that thing looks like it’s 25 foot tall to me.

George Ward
So I think I think he’s narrowing you down. Right? I think he’s trying to give you a path. And he’s telling you start at Mitchell Hall. Okay, which direction Mitchell Hall? Is that a four way street? Which way do I need to go? Okay, I need to pass these four roads. So I’ve got to go that way. And then you don’t need any more instruction until you get to OakLeaf, where he’s like, You need to know to either go left or right. So I’ll tell you which way to go. And then you get to the stairs and you need to go up the stairs. So he tells you that when you get to the top of the stairs, he tells you which direction to go. That’s a long distance. But it’s not that many instructions that you need. Right, you just keep going until he tells you to stop. Once you get closer to where you dig. You need more instructions, you need to narrow it down more. So it’s gonna be more compact.

Fenix
Oh, he gives you a lot of instructions. Once you start to narrow it down, rather try to their attempt to narrow it. I don’t know this. This is the most ridiculous verse. Out of all of them.

George Ward
It’s not to me, it seems really cool what he did

Fenix
first. I honestly believe this is the first verse he wrote, because it sucks.

George Ward
Well, it seems it seems easy. It seems cut and dry to me. And it seems like even if you were doing this in 1982, it would have been just ungodly, simple. And the reason it’s not simple now is because we’re talking about we’re talking about trees. We’re talking about trees. We’re talking about birch trees whose average lifespan is 40 years. It’s 40 years late. You’re even if nobody had removed those trees, they would be dead by now.

Fenix
Yeah, yeah, agree.

George Ward
To me, it’s easy, it tells you, it doesn’t matter. You can argue over whether the foot of the culvert is at the top or the bottom, it doesn’t matter because he tells you to go below the bridge. Right? So you know, you got to walk down that path next to the six blind. You’ve got to once you get below the bridge, he gives you another instruction walk 100 paces. Okay, you can go one of two ways you can go left or right. Which way southeast? All right, that’s left. You get you walk 100 paces southeast, and you end up at the road.

Fenix
Yeah, I don’t know. I follow what you’re saying. But I mean, I thought the park was a lot bigger than it was. And 100 paces is very close to the distance you travel. From the parking lot, where the Bistro is. And by the way, what the hell was the bistro back in 82? I have no idea if anyone from Milwaukee knows that. You know, let us know that would be interesting information. But it’s very close to 100 paces to walk up, or to the first line. You know, 300? It’s Sophie, some little league field? I don’t know. Maybe it’s more like I would say it’s like 500 feet.

George Ward
Yeah, and you can even argue over paces. But then again, but why does the dude tell you go all the way out to this one specific line. And there’s no argument that this is the you’re supposed to be at the sixth line at this point. There’s not really in either of our situations. When you

Fenix
don’t know that you need to go down there. I didn’t really think that he’s just taking you to the, to the spot between the North and South Lyon bridge. And my big white house. Yeah, it’s a little bit sorry, where the lighthouse is.

George Ward
So what what’s the point of going all the way down to the lighthouse? If you’re just going to cut and go back and go to walk?

Fenix
My big question is, is he taking you on a path that I’m misunderstanding where you actually see all five of the foot bridges in the park? Because, you know, we’ve talked about this before, and I may be jumping ahead. A bridge is tall. There’s five foot bridges. He uses the word foot twice. He uses a lot of words twice in this verse, right?

George Ward
I don’t know, I can’t. Being here. I can’t think of a path that I could take. That even sort of resembles the verse where I would I can see 234 Like four, I can see four of them. But there’s the one that we went down today. Which was on Oak Leaf, but it was by the number six,

Fenix
that that you You almost hit that one as you curve all the way out around and go down Lincoln, right?

George Ward
No, it’s like, if you were to take his path from Lincoln, up to the grand 200, you’ve skipped,

Fenix
you go all the way around the outskirts of the park. Right.

George Ward
Yeah. And you’ve skipped one of the foot bridges.

Fenix
That’s true. And that’s, you know, the the question I asked myself Is he gives you all these instructions that seem to me unnecessary, because obviously I have an idea of where I believe it is, but the only reason I can feel that he gives you those instructions is because you’re you need to see something specific. And you’re coming out, you know, down on Lincoln. But I keep questioning, you know, those five bridges, you know, why is

George Ward
that? I mean, it’s probably a coincidence. I mean, it could be that’s a big park in a hilly area, they’re gonna have bridges. I don’t know. My thought is it’s unless there was something at a at the building above the to the above the grand 200 unless there was some kind of Compass there. Or as soon as you walked past the building, unless there was some sort of Compass like it seems to be, he’s only giving you instructions when you have to make a decision. So far in this verse, right?

Fenix
Well, I mean, I’d argue the start he gives you a guess. I mean, you could turn at every street.

George Ward
Why? Yeah, but Well, no, could you because if you pass the three you’re the next road is

Fenix
it’s maryada Yeah, you come to Marietta, and then you then you come to Oak Leaf in Michigan. And there’s Lake Drive there. But I mean, that’s right at the entrance. Yeah. Marietta is the painting robustly. So she’s after the three and formerly Third Avenue. So he calls out, like eighth streets in this verse. Yeah. Should we be looking for more streets in some of these other verses, I

George Ward
don’t think you need to, once you get to the grand, the grand 200, you don’t need that before.

Fenix
Now you don’t. Like he’s

George Ward
obviously telling you to climb this obvious thing. So you need to be at the top of it for the next part. So the beginning doesn’t matter as much.

Fenix
It doesn’t. But my argument is simply that he’s very specific in the beginning. Then he takes you to the staircase, then there’s a void where you pass the lawn bowling in the golf course, where there’s no instructions

George Ward
where you don’t pass the lawn bowling. So the lawn bowling is off to the right to get there. You have a you

Fenix
you come right up past that when you climb the stairs. It’s right at the top of the stairs. I mean, it’s all it is off to the right slightly. Yeah. But turns out if you come this way or that way. Yeah, that is and that’s what I mean, if you come to the right, you go right to it. If you come to the left, it’s slightly off to your right, yeah, from the parking.

George Ward
But that’s what I mean. It’s not necessarily that he is like, taking you want a path. I mean, he is taking you on a path, but he’s taking you on a path where when you have to make a decision which way to go, he’s telling you. So you get to the top of the stairs, you either have to go right or go left. If you go right, you go to the Bowling Green, if you go left, you go to the lighthouse, he’s telling you go to the lighthouse. So take a left.

Fenix
And my question is could you see the lighthouse from the you know, the top of the stairs after you get past the building rack and at ease? You know, you would almost have to know what’s there Right?

George Ward
Or there would be a sign like I could I would more see there being a sign like North Point Lighthouse this way. XYZ that way

Fenix
that could have been I have no idea. But that’s that’s

George Ward
my thing. He every time you have to make a decision, he tells you to make a decision. So like you he he tells you to go below the bridge, you got to go below the bridge, he tells you to walk 100 paces. 100 paces takes you out of the road. I’m sorry, I counted them.

Fenix
Adding to the argument though. You do pass the waterfall. And I know the waterfall is been redone. And you can go down a path there as well. So you would have to make a decision. And you could almost consider that waterfall. A culvert.

George Ward
Yeah, but to get there, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t have passed the lighthouse yet.

Fenix
But that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying you have to make decisions. From the top of the stairs to the lighthouse. Yeah, you have to visit really your compass. I think it’s misdirection. I don’t know. I think everyone assumes that’s the compass because it’s like, oh, look at that big lighthouse. It’s North Point. It’s the compass. I agree. But I think that he was doing something tricky with that line. And that’s what a lot of people are missing.

George Ward
I think nobody thinks of that as the like, I think more people Yeah, more people that I’ve talked to there that have talked at me, seem to think that either that because Masons are cool or whatever. seem to think that Masons compass is the compass or that it’s telling you you like James on podcast, like you have to have a compass with you and you go, not 100 paces, but 100 degrees and X. Like I think more people are not thinking simply enough about North Point Lighthouse being the compass. They’re thinking there’s some weird, grand thing you have to do with a compass

Fenix
to that. I mean, James Renner thought that way. He’s a cool guy, right? Yes. He did a documentary on the secret.

George Ward
Everything.

Fenix
Between James and Josh, I still can’t believe it didn’t get done. But yeah, they were at the wrong line or

George Ward
at the wrong line. I don’t understand that. Like I guess we should talk about that. Right. So

Fenix
I’m glad we’re here. Right at the end of the day, it was a pretty rash decision on my part to come out here based on dude, these people are counting the lions wrong. Yeah, like that was my whole thing. So

George Ward
everybody without fail without fail. Everybody is counting lines from the left to the right. Right to left. I’m sorry. Everybody is counting lines from C Cleveland’s everyone up on this. It is it is. Everybody is counting from right to left. And when you count, you count from left to right. That’s just the way it works. The alphabet works that way. Numbers work that way. Whatever. There is no reason like everybody’s always said the fifth line is the one right next to The White House. That doesn’t make any sense. That’s the sixth line. Yeah. And like if you’re going by that logic, if you’re going by it’s buried at the southeast foot of the fifth line, and that’s the fifth line. It doesn’t have any south. It doesn’t have any southern feet. Like the feet aren’t on the south, they’re on the north.

Fenix
That’s a good point. Yeah, for people that don’t know and haven’t looked at them closely, the lions are laying on their side. So there’s a PA that’s flat in front of PA that’s raised on sides lately. And then the two hind paws are underneath the line,

George Ward
like coming out. Yeah, like your dog with layers. They’re laying off one side of

Fenix
tail pokes around in the paws or out that way,

George Ward
so that lions feet are to the north that does not have

Fenix
they’re facing the lighthouse. Yeah, they’re technically. And I guess, you know, this probably brings us into the next important part of the discussion. directionally, they’re facing the six lions hind paws are facing north northwest, but they’re facing the lighthouse, which is, as you pointed out, north. Yeah. Always.

George Ward
Yeah. So if one thing that you could, you could argue with this, is, he’s giving you a compass. And he’s also giving you a bunch of directions. But if I were to put just take a random person, put them in a park and tell them to go north, they’re not going to know where north is, like, unless you literally have a compass. Yeah. So if he’s calling out something as a compass, why are you not using that as your compass? Why are you not using that as North? It’s not? Like, if you’re using that as North? It normally with with normal north, south, east and west, the path doesn’t run? Like perfectly east and west? Absolutely. But if you’re using the lighthouse says North, the path runs perfectly east to west. So why are you when he’s telling you go southwest? Or I’m sorry? Go west, or go south east? Or what? When he’s telling you the directions, right? Yeah, when he tells you to go south east or when he tells you to go west? Why are we why are you using actual West and not West? Due to the lighthouse? The lighthouse is no I

Fenix
love this, because I think it it fits my theory that as you travel west, you’re just moving towards the lighthouse. And it fits perfectly right. But I think that point is fabulous. I mean, what is the saying? A compass always points north. God. I mean, that’s a great twist. Right, right. I remember some dude telling me that these all had twists. And I don’t know, I thought it was bullshit. But maybe that guy was right. Who

George Ward
knows? Yeah. Just couldn’t figure it out at the time. Yeah,

Fenix
maybe it was digging at the wrong line. People have trouble left to right. Right to left. You know, it almost. I mean, there could be a cask in the ground. I know levington The ground if what was it? Andy didn’t. Yeah, look at

George Ward
that different if Andy didn’t want to hear what? He got frustrated. He threw a bow in the ground.

Fenix
Amen. Sometimes. That’s all. That’s all it takes. But still

George Ward
like, okay, all right, let’s say, you know, devil’s advocate, and giggles. You’re at the line. Why does he tell you to go below the bridge?

Fenix
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’ll let’s I mean, you can take us there again. No, I

George Ward
mean, what are your theories? And why?

Fenix
I think I think that I don’t have that figured out. I believe that that has something to do with us passing all of the bridges. I’ve seriously believe that he wants you to pass these five bridges. And that will be your proud tall fifth. Because there’s a key word with that line. And it’s on a proud tall fifth. Not at a proud health. Fifth, not anything else on a proud tall fifth. And a lot of people think that has to do with a letter. I think it’s a separate line. I don’t think you combine that with wonder stones Earth.

George Ward
Yeah. So you’re Yeah, you’re saying so it’s telling you to look at the southern foot on the prowl. Fifth. Absolutely. Yeah.

Fenix
So I mean, fifth, I think I think fifth interesting, right, because there’s so many things that could be fifth. I mean, you look at the lighthouse, North Point. That could be fifth. You look at the bridge. It’s the fifth bridge. Lion is Leo, as James pointed out so eloquently. It’s the fifth lion, for Christ’s sakes. Come on, at least dig at the fifth lion. Yeah, I mean, which, which lion didn’t have a hole but

George Ward
the fifth line?

Fenix
I mean, a lot of you Milwaukee people are digging holes.

George Ward
Oh god, there’s, there’s so many holes in this part, like two things

Fenix
right? Dig a deep hole. And at least fill in the, the tiny holes, you know,

George Ward
like, I’ll call him out because he talks so much about this shit. Had someone dig a hole at the sixth line. And that hole is still here. He sent me pictures of that. And that was back. That was before the tribute casts before the tribute was launched. That that hole is still

Fenix
here. Yeah, that’s an unusual hole to I mean, it’s, I don’t know if they got confused and they thought you were supposed to dig the hole three feet wide. Instead of three feet deep. It’s a huge hole heads. It’s a three foot wide hole. That’s probably four inches. Yeah, it’s not maybe they filled some of it.

George Ward
He could have filled some of it in rain, whatever. But like, I feel like I have to go get sand just to fill up the students fall. Yeah, yeah. Like I’m mad about that. Because a lot of holes. There’s a lot of there’s holes like the lion that all cuts

Fenix
got a lot of holes. Walcott’s full of holes in Walcott’s been from my understanding that concrete wasn’t there at one point in time and I’m going by memory but yeah,

George Ward
well I’m pretty sure that used to be

brick or something of that. That’s sort of

the hole that are the the lion that Josh gates his hole still there.

Fenix
Yeah, I think someone tried to like pinpoint Josh gates is spot.

George Ward
Yeah, probably. A cone on it. Yeah, put a cone on it.

Fenix
It’s memorialized with the Orange County

George Ward
Lord, Joshua’s here, but that whole lion all around it, in the well in the woods area is dug up.

Fenix
Oh, yeah. And by the way, those slopes are some steep slopes

George Ward
slid down, many of them.

Fenix
Don’t do this in the rain.

George Ward
So what what I think with the slopes is, you pointed out, I think more I think about it, it’s true. At some point, a truck driver was a thought idiot. And he said he was following his GPS. And he drove a semi truck over one of those bridges.

Fenix
He literally drove and this is a narrow bridge, right? They narrowed the bridge to so it would only be for foot traffic. And this dude got a semi truck over the first lions bridge, and somehow got it stuck trying to navigate the second one. And they had to repair, you know, some of the, some of the, you know, stone on the bridge because of it, but I’m crazy. And that was in my late, like, after I booked the trip. And I was like, you know, let me find all the reasons why I shouldn’t have done this.

George Ward
So in in, in doing a little looking, right. We know, you can tell looking at the bridges, that some of the facade was changed, because

Fenix
and that’s different. Right. So that was that was a project back in 2011, when they actually did a refacing of the bridge. And that concern me quite a bit. Because I I failed the look at that before booking the trip. But you know, when when you do that you start to you have to dig down to access the stone. Right? And you know, as we were as you were digging some holes, you will you’re laying up all

George Ward
I was Yeah, so it looks like what they did was they dug out the footers, which you would do, yeah, chipped away, chipped away all the facade and replaced it. Yeah. So odds are if it was around those lines, or it was around the bridge, it’s been destroyed when they pulled out the footers, or when they dug down.

Fenix
I mean, it could have been destroyed way earlier than that, right? Because the question that we keep asking is, you know, did the ground come up even with the, you know, the base of that lion and then sloped down because, you know, you have to you have to assume that you know, rain and erosion did steep in that slope, at least a good amount, right. And I’m not I’m not a technician, you know, I’m sure Matt. Matt has a brilliant equation that would Tell us exactly. You know how that how how steep that slope is and how many inches it increased over the years. But

George Ward
my thing is looking at all of Olmsted’s other parks. He doesn’t like, he like he likes for pads like he won’t. He wouldn’t like a steep path like that. Like if he wanted a path there, he would have put in steps. Right? He likes those the wooden steps like log steps, yes, yes. And that would erode easier. So what I’m thinking is we’re there log steps there for the pads going down the lions, which have rolled it out. And instead of repairing them, they just remove them be accounted

Fenix
for it right. Or at least you know, Oscar son or whoever, you know, I think son designed the bridges. And then what? Quaker, whatever was the guy that designed the lions. Yeah. But they have the drain going into the woods. I mean, it’s what, two foot?

George Ward
Yeah, but I think those drains are new. Yeah, the runoff drains I’m

Fenix
pretty sure they’re possibly, but I the way I look at the but that’s down. I mean, I only think that there was like one or two that were intentional and the others, just vast trampled

George Ward
wood. And another thing that leads me to the erosion is the presence of those drains, you’re not going to add those unless erosion is a problem, because you want to divert the water to somewhere else. And wind over the water if erosion isn’t a big deal. So 40 year, even, you know, 100 years later, even 40 years later, that ground is going to have eroded so much that now you just slide down. It’s a big ass slip and slide

Fenix
down those things. Yeah, it’s crazy. I mean, that that’s a huge miss in my mind. You know, how come nobody warned me of this before I’ve booked this stupid trip. I’m not a smart guy, but I figured it out pretty quickly when we got here. Yeah,

George Ward
but digging anywhere near those lines. I will say we dug down two and a half foot maybe. Maybe I’ll say maybe, but it’s

Fenix
tough to tell it’s on. It’s on a 45 degree slope.

George Ward
But all we did was dig up facade Ridge facade they just buried it they just buried it there’s no unless they had dug down that deep that bridge beside wouldn’t be there. So if you’re right and it was by a lion and it’s not by the line anymore

Fenix
yeah i mean i The way I see it I have to be right I don’t know about you but

George Ward
well the way I see it if you’re right then the last let’s see 123456788 and lines don’t matter they can just be thrown away

Fenix
now because you’re you’re confused and that’s that’s taking you by those bridges so you know this one is the fifth

George Ward
okay

Fenix
all right when I leave you speechless I know I’ve done something well

George Ward
yes. Josh Cornell also leaves me speechless.

Fenix
You know, Josh Cornella also leaves me speechless. So we do have that in common.

George Ward
I just don’t get it man. He’s like, he’s like go below the bridge. Okay. said this line at the top of the brace. Yeah,

Fenix
but you’re Weren’t you the one that says said the foot of the Culver isn’t necessarily below the bridge. Yeah, but you could just be looking below the bridge. Yeah.

George Ward
Okay. So my thought was, he tells you to go to the foot of the culvert. And then he says below the bridge and a foot a foot of something is at the top and is not at the bottom. So he could have been telling you pass the compass and reach the top of the the top of the bridge where the foot of the culvert is, and then he’s telling you the culvert is below the bridge. But then I’m confused because the next thing he tells you if there’s a walk 100 paces southeast over rock and soil. Like if you walk if you get to there and then walk se without going below the bridge. You you go off into the woods and data slope.

Fenix
Yeah, this versus a lot like Josh Cornell, I kind of just zone out after a little while because it’s nonsensical. Yeah.

George Ward
Well, it is. It does make sense if you go below the bridge.

Fenix
But I mean, then the way I see it is, that’s a shitty puzzle man. Like, if you take me all the way around Lincoln, up a bunch of stairs, to lighthouse, down a path by a lion through a bunch of paths over a little bridge, and then back out to Lincoln, which is 500 yards from where I was when I climbed the stairs. I’m pretty pissed because I didn’t need to do all that work.

George Ward
Yeah, but if you don’t do all the work, then it’s not a puzzle. If the dude told you to pass, pass the three who live there, get to the grand 200 or the Grand Slam to read and continue walking and the cask is buried at the ninth tree to the right, like that’s not much of a puzzle.

Fenix
It isn’t. But that’s, that’s why I’m saying this had to be the first verse, right? I mean,

George Ward
I don’t know. I mean, I see it as being pretty basic. Go to the go to the go to the stairs, climb stairs, go to the left, go to the culvert, go down the culvert, and then walks out these, like when you get to the end of that path. There’s a marker, it’s obviously new, but it has a compass on it and shows that that is a southeasterly path. And it uses the lighthouse as North.

Fenix
The sign does. Yeah. And it’s

George Ward
got the, the way the everything is positioned the way the park is positioned in the sign at points. Like

Fenix
I follow you’re saying you can you can discern that. Yeah, from the northern lighthouse. That is the southeastern path.

George Ward
Yeah. And then it tells you to go west and that’s it walks you right down the right on the sidewalk.

Fenix
So how do you get back to Walcott though,

George Ward
I don’t want to go back to walk.

Fenix
So so how do you justify country? I don’t know. And the three

George Ward
I don’t know he like because the three is

Fenix
important to me too, because I think you’ve passed three bridges. By that point. You pass the three bridges. And then you come to the two lion bridges, which are the fourth and fifth footbridges in the park. Yeah. I don’t know. I just like it, man. It seems it seems to make some sense out of this crazy verse.

George Ward
You but I think it makes it too complicated. Just

Fenix
cut it. He needed an editor. I thought he was an editor.

George Ward
I don’t know. It makes it too complicated. Like, it sounds located like

Fenix
we’re going up and down paths. And that’s complicated. I guess I think I think it’s all kind of complicated. At the end of the day,

George Ward
so the rest of it. I don’t understand. I don’t I can see. I can see a young birch like a bursary lasts a certain amount of time.

Fenix
I just forget about those lines. You know, I It’s funny, because every time someone brings them up, I’m like, Oh, shit, I forgot about the birches. Yeah. You know, who puts that in a puzzle?

George Ward
Well, like I pointed out to you today, you can tell a young bird

terminal birch, except for it wasn’t a birch.

I still think it was a birch. I’m sorry.

Fenix
Were two guys that don’t know trees? Well, about birchas.

George Ward
You can tell a young tree right? So my theory is,

Fenix
is it is easy to tell if it was a white birch, right? You know, or a paper birch, whichever you want to call it? You know, the ones that have the rings? And, you know, appear to be in the painting? If that’s what you think that is? Is it is it easy to tell? Which one is young and old? Because I mean, I grew up in Michigan around those trees and

George Ward
well, you would be able to tell a foreign was freshly planted, like within the past two years. But would you wouldn’t have five five you know what I’m saying? Oh, no. Yeah, the the brand? No, I wouldn’t have that. What do you call those trunks? Five trunks? Yeah, no, I wouldn’t have that. But you would be able to tell it to young birch. Because for the first couple of years, when you plan a birch, you’re gonna put stakes around it, you’re gonna put wires up. It’s gonna be five foot tall. And

Fenix
I guess that I mean, if we’re really counting birch trees. The fifth one doesn’t have to be on, right?

George Ward
No, it doesn’t have to be on. But

Fenix
it can’t be younger. So it’s got five. So we are drunk. We argue about

George Ward
the birch trees. But let me ask you this. If if I just plopped you down in this park, and you don’t know trees? Like what would you call those trees?

Fenix
I mean, that’s why I say they absolutely have to be a white birch, right or a paper birch. Because anyone that grew up around those trees knows it’s a birch tree. But I mean, if I’m talking about a yellow birch or something like that, I mean, I didn’t even know there were river birches that were 60 foot tall until we googled it. I’m like, Oh, shit, that’s a river birch, you know, like, but I always knew what a white birch was from a very, very young age.

George Ward
I don’t know. I mean, like, I don’t know, trees. I know palm trees.

Fenix
And, and that’s why right, because they’re native to your region. As in, you know, I mean, Michigan’s just on the other side of the lake here, right? Yeah. So it’s very similar climate very similar, you know, vegetation, but I mean, if we knew birch trees,

George Ward
those birch trees, yeah. What if you were to plop me down in this park and you were to say, what is that tree? I’d be like, well, I know. It’s not an oak. I know. It’s not a pine. I know. It’s not like an apple tree. It’s probably a birch tree that and that was my like This seriously, it looks more like a birch tree than anything like I’m telling you with what you just happen

Fenix
to like eliminate for income to Burton.

George Ward
But I’m a normal person that doesn’t obsess over puzzles like how do I know what kind of tree? It maybe it was called out somehow maybe there was a sign look, we’re planning birch trees. I don’t know. I mean, if I were to say, if he’s putting you in this area, this is going to be a very specific young tree that you’re looking for. And then he’s telling you to pass a certain number of them. But as a forest, for God’s sakes, like

Fenix
Yeah, that’s because you’re not supposed to be down under those bridges. Oh, he

George Ward
just put that there for no. Yeah, no reason. I forgot. It’s Walcott, he’s the proud tall fifth.

Fenix
And that dudes tall. He looked pretty fucking proud, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, should we talk about my crazy faces?

George Ward
Crazy faces. I mean, you can I mean,

Fenix
I was one of the biggest. I criticize people for seeing things in paintings. Yeah. You know, to a point I’m not the nicest guy on line, right? Yeah, that’s true. But this is got some fucked up faces in it, man. I don’t see animals in any paintings. But you know, I was looking at this the other day. And if you stare at the spires if you rotate the you don’t even have to rotate the the image. But if you stare at the negative space between the spires and just let your eyes relax. Let the negative space come forward. You see a side view of a face looks like a neckline you know you see a nose a mouth. A slanted eye? I have no idea whose face that is. But then if you look at the sleeve had almost see Walcott man. I almost see him walk out. I see that big beard. You know, his nose, forehead going back? I mean, think about Lincoln, right? Like everyone looks at me and they’re like, John, you’re crazy. That’s not Walcott. But think about Lincoln in the rocks in the San Francisco painting.

George Ward
Even if even if you’re right, let’s say let’s say it means nothing. Let’s say John drew Palancar comes out to you tomorrow. And he says you are right that is Walcott?

Fenix
Thank you, John. Damn right.

But what does that mean? Like? Your your means it’s buried at the fifth line. Like I’ve been saying,

George Ward
No, like the only reason like you’re doing, you’re doing you’re doing what everyone online does. And you’re ignoring the verse. You’re just completely like your,

Fenix
your I was the one that that didn’t ignore the verse because I’m at the right line. And

George Ward
then you can kind of go past the life

Fenix
like, well, you passed four of them.

George Ward
My thing is like the verse continues, it just does it tells you it tells you to walk. If if you’re at that culvert, the line is culvert, the waterfall either one pick a culvert I don’t care.

Fenix
Yeah, the waterfall is actually 100 feet from the bridge. The waterfall is 100 feet from the bridge. I apologize. 100 paces from the from say go paste that up.

George Ward
Okay. So let’s say you pass the compass you reach the foot of the culvert. So you’ve passed the lighthouse, you’ve reached the foot of the culvert that can only be at the six lots where we disagree is because you think there’s another compass? Yeah, I

Fenix
think the compass is mixed misdirection. Right? Because it’s so important to the to the actual solve and that being north and you having to be south of it in the end, that I believe it’s misdirection at the beginning. I don’t have a good explanation for the compass because I think the the whole was the other compass. The masons, yeah, the Masons compass. I think that’s pretty shitty.

George Ward
Yeah, that’s dumb. Because it’s like every every lamppost has that. So what makes that one lamppost?

Fenix
I mean, you definitely come to one right there so I can, I can see the argument it just it didn’t feel right to me, like you know, certain things like you’re on the path and you’re like, oh, shit, that feels really good. That one didn’t feel good. No.

George Ward
I don’t know, man. I think I still like

Fenix
so where do you dig? Where do you dig if you come back out on Lincoln?

George Ward
I don’t know. I mean, I would think there’s the there’s the birch trees on God. You’re gonna argue that they’re not birch trees is the bursaries in the center of the of Lincoln highway? Oh, yeah. So like three years old? Yeah. Okay. They’re not birch trees. It is whatever. But like I can, I’m trying to at this point, I don’t necessarily think those trees are correct, but I don’t I also don’t think he’s going to tell you. I don’t think he’s gonna tell you to count the trees in the forest. Right.

Fenix
I don’t think you’re counting trees. Okay, so

George Ward
what’s the Birch is nothing.

Fenix
Yeah, that’s a good point. I don’t know why he put birch in there. I mean, I think he could have left that out.

George Ward
Yeah. In order to fit your soul. He could have left, but but he did put it in there. So at some point, you got to come across a birch. At some point?

Fenix
Yeah. And I assume you probably did back in the day.

George Ward
And then you have to pass three of something. Three bridges. Okay, so we’re gonna go up the thing.

Fenix
I feel like I’m repeating myself. Yeah, you are very similar to the verse. It doesn’t make

George Ward
much sense. Because you’ve already so there’s only two bridges on that side?

Fenix
No, there’s three. There’s five foot bridges in the park? Total? Yeah, correct. Yeah,

George Ward
there’s a one hidden one. There’s a one off to the right of the steps.

Fenix
There’s three that are north in the northern section of the park. And then there’s the two lines between lines, bridges. But so you’re fast three, and you stay Wes, from the direction of the compass being north, and you come to four and five, which are the lines.

George Ward
But if you pass so if you walk up the nine easy steps and you hang a left, and you walk to the end of the park, you’re gonna go over to bridges.

Fenix
Yeah, and I agree with that. I think that’s where the confusion comes in with that, that verse. Yes, I

George Ward
agree. I’m very confused. Yeah.

Fenix
And I think everyone is right. And thanks, Byron. I know you’re alluding to the fact that my solid is confusing, but I believe that you could, I think you could take a path and see those bridges in the northern section using the the wacko directions that he gives. I agree.

George Ward
And if he wanted you to see all those bridges, he would have created that path.

Fenix
Good point. I mean, it could be on Lincoln. It could be right what is there’s some guy that says anything’s possible to? Yeah, remember his name? What’s the look? Is this what are the oak trees? Are they? What? The birch trees, right? Birch trees, Oak Island trees.

George Ward
I don’t know anything about Oak Island. In Canada, that’s a giant hole in the ground.

Fenix
It’s in Canada. You should go money. They call it the money pit.

George Ward
Like, I don’t get it. I saw I lived in Oak Island before Oak Island before the curse of the Oak Island, right? It’s a cool thing. It’s a cool thing. But they’ve never seriously never found anything. They found like a piece of wood, or something that had something carved on it. But that was when a dude that owned it was trying to convince sellers that there was shit buried there. Yeah, that

Fenix
was the one of the original things they found, right. I don’t know everything about it. I know that. It’s very intricate, in the way it was designed. Yeah. And I think that is what leads everyone to believe that there has to be something of value there. Or something. Someone was trying to hide something for a reason, right? Whether it’s to keep it away from people because it’s bad. Or because it’s valuable, and they don’t want anyone else to access it. It’s

George Ward
like a soul of the devil to the bottom of the money.

Fenix
Isn’t there something like it’s the

George Ward
so here’s what I remember about the money pit that it’s they dug down and they found some wood and they found like logs,

Fenix
and it’s bound with coconut twine, right? Or something like that. The logs? I don’t know, what’s it’s found with fibers that you that aren’t indigenous to the region.

George Ward
So I don’t necessarily trust the stuff that was found because most of

Fenix
this is the layers right? There’s there’s multiple layers,

George Ward
and there seems to be but it’s ground. There’s gonna be multiple, like I don’t necessarily trust.

Fenix
I think you need to look at it more there. Yeah, it’s very complex. Yeah. There’s different layers. And there’s several layers down and I don’t even watch the show. I’ve never even seen the show, but I’ve seen some well.

George Ward
The last time I looked at it was like 10 years ago. Most of the stuff that had been found was found by the investor who was trying to sell the place. I think the last time I looked into it, they had figured out the they had dug down in the hole kept getting filled with water. And they figured figured out there were multiple aquifers that were feeding water into the hole. Yeah, once

Fenix
you hit it, it was almost like a defense mechanism. If you hit certain it’s unspotted it filled up. Yeah. And they pumped die down and saw where it came out around the island itself. And I believe it’s like three different spots or something like that. Don’t quote me on that. Like I said, I’ve never watched the show

George Ward
Anyway, I forget what we’re talking about. No. I don’t know, I think this is one that we’re not going to solve. I think if it’s by the line, it’s gone. It’s anywhere near any of those lines has been gone for a very long time. Like, well, before this thing, you know, read the hunt got more popular? Yeah, it was gone well, before that.

Fenix
Yeah, I don’t I don’t know that I would, it would be a toss up whether it was taken by erosion or if it was taken by the constraints surfacing of the bridges. You know, it’s interesting, though, we have to talk about Milwaukee a little bit, and we haven’t ventured into the city much. And I mean, we’re in the city. You’re in the college area. We’re in the east side. I mean, we’re staying on downer, which is one of the three that lived there, then. It’s kind of cool, man.

George Ward
Yeah, it’s not as depressing as I thought it was.

Fenix
I thought it was I was not looking forward to the actual city itself.

George Ward
People seem nice. Well, yeah. I guess the only ones we’ve entered? Well, no, because they were all the people who huddled around the lake like it was a beach

Fenix
at the beach thing is weird. And that’s a Michigan thing, too. You know, they’ve, they’ve turned Lake Michigan into a makeshift beach. And it’s a lot of college age people, I think, yeah, but

George Ward
we’re in the college area. So, but it’s not that, like, the houses are nice. Everything’s pretty and

Fenix
it’s very old. It feels it feels it’s refreshing. It’s not, it’s not city city.

George Ward
So I was a little wrong, but I still don’t want to come here anymore. I’m good. I’ve seen it.

Brett Zingler
So guys, that was awesome. Rah, I gotta admit, I didn’t understand all of the things that you were talking about. But it’s really cool to just sort of have this candid, you know, be be almost like eavesdropping on your guy’s candid conversation about it after you’re done hunting. That was really cool. i My question is, so it sounds like you both differ in some, in some ways, with the verse itself. George, can you expand on that a

George Ward
little bit? Yeah. So I think the verse I think this is one of the few verses in the secret that’s very cut and dry. It’s very, go here, do this. Right. There are some verses like the Florida verse which can sort of be interpreted in different ways, like each each line of the verse, none of the lines of the verse are very specific, right? They can be taken to mean different things. This one is very, very cut and dry. It tells you to view the three stories of Mitchell you’re he’s literally telling you to look at a building you know exactly which building this is. And then he says as you walk the beating of the world you’re standing on Kenwood, right? He’s telling you walk Kenwood says at a distance in time from three who lived there, he’s telling you to pass the three streets from a distance in space from a woman with harpsichord he’s telling you to pass Marietta, silently playing step on nature cast and copper, he’s telling you, be it OakLeaf trail and Lincoln ascend the 92 steps. He’s telling you to go to the steps stay on OakLeaf trail and Lincoln, go to the steps climb the steps past the compass, he’s telling you to go past the lighthouse the lighthouse is North Point Lighthouse, it’s it’s it’s used as is used as the north point of the park and all of their signs. The thing is literally named North Point past the compass and reach the foot of the culvert go to right right past the right past the lighthouse is aligned with a path that leads down to a culvert. Stop there. Then go below the bridge. Okay, walk down the path go below the bridge. Walk 100 paces southeast, you walk 100 paces southeast you are outside of the park. Like I counted those steps. 100 paces puts you right outside the park. So the first young birch there’s a big birch tree sitting there. I mean, John, I’ll argue about whether or not that was a young birch. That’s the valid argument. But there’s one right there. You’ll see a letter from wonder letter from the country at Wonder stones hearth. I’ve got no idea. That could be a clue that’s lost a time I know that’s a cop out answer but it’s you know, it’s in some ways that’s a valid answer. Oh, I skipped past three staying west. So you’re at the first young birch pass three more saying west right when you get to that first young birch there’s a sign with a compass on it that tells you which way is West. By the way. The path you take under the bridge is South East according to the map. past three staying West, you’ll see a letter from a country of Wonder stones hearth, like I said, I have no idea on a proud soil fifth. We’ve been talking about birch trees this whole time. Um, we’ve counted birch trees, it makes sense that you would be at the fifth birch tree at its southern foot, the treasure weights. That’s pretty cut and dried. And like that’s, that’s all I’ve got to say. It’s just simple.

Fenix
Yeah, it almost feels like to me that, you know, the amount of instructions in this verse. It feels like a first pass. And I may have mentioned this earlier, I almost feel like this is the first verse that Byron wrote, you know, it’s wordy. It’s long. I don’t think that a lot of it needs to be there. But, you know, there’s some really key interesting points in it. You know, he calls out a lot of streets, he calls out streets through all of them to if you look at it, but

George Ward
that’s that’s an argument that people make a lot all of these verses right, when people are when people are sort of reaching for the verses when people are trying to make them fit something that’s what they say, this verse doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I think this might have been his first one he’s not very experienced yet and blah, blah, blah.

Fenix
Oh, yeah. And don’t get me wrong. I don’t think that this is his first because it doesn’t make sense. I think a lot of it makes complete sense. I think it’s his first just because he he overdid it, you know, he gave you too much information and this one,

George Ward
not really, if you’re standing at the if you’re standing at Mitchell, and your turn right and you walk down Kenwood, he only gives you a line when you have to make a decision. He you keep going down and would until you get to Oak Leaf and Lincoln. You can either go you can keep going on oak leaf into the into the middle of the park, or you can keep going down Lincoln and Oakwood. He tells you to go down Lincoln and Oakwood. And then when you get to the steps, he tells you to go up the steps and then you got to go right or left so he tells you to go left like that’s what it seems to me. It seems like a long path. But it seems like every single line in this verse is important.

Fenix
It’s actually I mean, for me, I was shocked. I thought it was a much longer distance that we would travel based on how long this verse was. So from the three story that Mitchell to Lake Park, it’s what like 500 feet? No, I don’t know. It’s not much further than that. Right? It’s

George Ward
three blocks. Three city well, it’s five blocks. Okay, five blocks.

Fenix
You know, when I look at this thing, I QUESTION One thing, though, is he just calling out all the entrances to the park? You can enter up near Kenwood where oak leaf trail and Lincoln me, you can enter on the backside where the grand staircase is. And you can enter over near the lighthouse where locust is. Yeah, I believe it was in the in the beginning. I mean, technically, you could enter in the back and I don’t see anything there. But

George Ward
well, you can enter you can enter at locus locus trail as well. And then both of the ravine trails. Yeah, good point. Yeah. I think there’s one more there’s the the entrance at the very back next to the main road. There’s the entrance of the lighthouse, the entrance at Oakley. But then there’s all those pads that

Fenix
but those are the three main entrances. Right. When you look at it. Yeah,

George Ward
those are the three main entrances.

Fenix
I don’t know. It’s interesting. Yeah.

George Ward
I mean, I see where people think that there’s a locus in the painting. And why would that be there? It’s odd because there’s a locus like street and there’s a locus trail.

Fenix
I don’t know. Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m right with you on that. I don’t know that that is a locus. And it may be more revealing in the original art. But it’s definitely curious that there’s a Locust Street entrance.

George Ward
Like the length of this verse is odd. It’s it’s the I believe it’s the longest verse by far, right. You said? Yeah, I

Fenix
think it’s 26 lines. Yeah, that’s

George Ward
the longest verse by far, but it’s also the most repetitive well, getting ahead of ourselves again, you didn’t go through how you thought the verse works. So how, like, know how I think it works. I think it’s just dead simple. How do you think it works?

Fenix
Well, I agree that it’s simple. I don’t think there’s much simple from a standpoint that he’s just giving you instructions, right. The one the couple of things that I’d question is the gaps you know, after you climb the staircase to pass the compass, if it is the North Point Lighthouse, there’s a decent distance there. You know, he provided what five lines above just to get you from Mitchell to Lake Park. Now you’re going to travel that same distance, maybe a little bit further, with one line. That’s doesn’t seem logical to me. And that’s, that’s what I keep trying to pull myself back to is what is a logical next step? So I have a question if that actually is the compass, or if it’s misdirection on his point. And he thinks, will everyone’s going to associate the lighthouse with the compass. So I’ll say pass the compass. And I’m actually referring to something else, like the Mason compass or whatever it may be. What else? I don’t know. I hate the rest of the verse.

George Ward
Yeah, but you hate it because it doesn’t really it doesn’t seem to agree with, with how you think the verse works, right? Let’s say the world agrees with my idea of how the verse works, which, you know, isn’t true. But let’s just say that 4% If that’s the case, you think the verse ends halfway through the verse,

Fenix
I look at a couple of things with it. Right. I think there’s some keys in here. I think you’ll see a letter from the country. Everyone goes, you’ll see see a letter from the country of Wonderstone. Sarath? Well, no, it doesn’t say that. It says you’ll see a letter from the country. And then it starts the next line. So in my opinion, that’s definitely Walcott country spelled out on on Wall calm. And I believe in your version, you’re already down under some bridges somewhere,

George Ward
right? Yeah, you’re almost you’re outside of the park. By that point.

Fenix
Yeah. Yep. And the other one is past three, staying Wes, calm couple things that I think about this, the first, why choose three. Right? There’s gotta be a reason why he chose three. He could have chose many things there. Now there’s five bridges, five major bridges in the park. That to me is the only reason you would choose three again, now you could pass the par three golf course, you could pass the three symbols on Walcott, you could pass the threes on the bridge. But you could pick other things to pass. So why pick three?

George Ward
I think when since you mentioned it, there’s something we should address. And on the previous podcast, we spent a good deal of time talking about rearranging this verse like the the person in the painting is juggling things. So we have to juggle the verse around. Now neither of us Yeah, neither of us agree with that. It doesn’t seem to make any sense. Do you? Do you have a reason you don’t agree with it? Other than it just doesn’t make any sense?

Fenix
No, it just, it feels forced to me? You know, I don’t think you need to rearrange it. I believe the reasons that people think you need to rearrange it is based on you know, where you go down under the bridge. And then coming back up, I question that you actually go down? Because why would you go down and come back up? I mean, it does not make any sense. Unless you go down over by the, I don’t know the name of the bridge over by the stairs, right? That that bridge that was closed off when we were there. Right? That to me would be the only place where you would actually go down under and then come back up? Because if you if you go down way over by the lions, I agree with you. Why would you come back up? You’re just coming back up? You know, 30 foot from where you were?

George Ward
Yeah. Yeah, I think if you if you take one of these verses, and you rearrange them willing, like the only real reason to rearrange this versus if you’re trying to make a spot fit the verse, or you’re trying to make the verse of it the spot instead of the other way around.

Fenix
You know, I will tell you though, I mean, I think others can confirm this. Palenque card did say the verses are not all in order. So I have a feeling that may be what was driving it, along with a little force action and, you know, some fetish with a juggler. Who knows, man,

George Ward
you haven’t you can you can take that as far as you want. You can stretch that out and make Oh yeah, make it mean, you’ve got to rearrange every single line. But if we’re just talking logically, like half of these verses, the dig spots in the middle of the verse.

Fenix
Yeah, exactly. That’s what I took it to be too is hey, don’t don’t read it from start to finish and think the last line is going to be where the treasure is, right? Yeah.

George Ward
And like in Florida, the dig spot is most likely behind bending branches and a green picket fence at the base of a tall tree that’s literally in the middle of the verse, the rest of the boat anchored. If, if you don’t rearrange that and put it at the bottom where it’s your final clue, then the rest of the verse doesn’t matter and why write it? Yeah, good point. Because of the way our minds work as people who dig puzzles we always think the most complicated thing when sometimes you should just like other people don’t think that way. So when they say the versus They’re out of order. They probably mean something like sometimes the deck spots in the middle rather than there’s this grand scheme where you have to rearrange every single line so that you end up at a line. So

Fenix
George, let me ask you this question. There are some people that have great confidence in Byron’s puzzle making ability. You know, they thought he was a genius, right? He, he may have made them slightly too difficult, if anything,

George Ward
right. Like in the podcast with Ben, Ben spent a good deal of time talking about how dedicated Byron was to this puzzle and how much time and effort he put into it. Ben made it a point to say that nothing was an accident in this puzzle.

Fenix
Yeah, exactly. So so now you have a 26 line puzzle that takes you a mile leads, you pass five birch trees. It did get the last one and you find a cask? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem like a great puzzle. If that’s the case,

George Ward
whether or not that makes it a good puzzle. It doesn’t in my opinion, it doesn’t really matter. That’s, that’s what the puzzle says to do. Like, if he doesn’t want you to find a birch, why is he gonna say a birch? If he doesn’t want you to be below the bridge? Why is he going to say below the bridge? Like, I get it? There could be some misdirection in the verses. But like a quarter of the verse can’t be misdirection. You can’t remove a quarter of these of these lines, just because, you know, you think they’re bad. Yeah, I

Fenix
don’t I don’t think you need to remove them either. I think I think there were probably some, I mean, we talked about this as well, when, you know, we were in Milwaukee. I grew up in Michigan, born and raised in Michigan. And you know, just on the other side of the lake, there are a ton of birch trees. And when I grew up, and I thought about birch trees and someone was talking about birch trees. We were talking about the I believe they’re the White Birch is right or what did you call them? George pay paper? birches. Yeah. They peel off really easy. They’re white, they have the blacks, black rings around them. They were very prominent in Milwaukee as well. They don’t have a long lifespan. I’d have to believe there are a lot more trees in that park. And I believe there’s been photos over the years that show that so it’s it’s very possible that you do pass a birch strange thing to say, though, young birch, you know,

George Ward
I’ll give you that man that if you follow the way I do this verse, you’re basically end up in a forest and how the hell are you going to know what the fifth Burgess?

Fenix
Yeah, I mean, we we weren’t even thinking about digging in the forest. I mean, you wanted me to come back with you and dig in the median?

George Ward
Yeah, yeah. Until Well, I mean, I figured that was that was like, uh, you know, if I were to think of a birch tree, like if I were Byron, and I was making a puzzle, and I saw a birch that had just been planted, you know, for the first couple of years, no tree is gonna have stakes in the ground, it’s going to be tied to the stakes to hold it up. Right, I would see that as a young birch. And I would know, compared to all the trees around it, if even if it’s 10 years down the road, you’re still going to recognize that as the youngest birch unless, you know, more birches were planted or whatever. The other

Brett Zingler
thing is, why is he using birches at all? I mean, why is he using trees? Like he knows that those get cut down and fall down and storms and things like that? I

George Ward
mean, I know, going from my tall tree. No, he doesn’t know that. Byron does not know how trees work. I guess not makes it tough, guys. Cuz Didn’t you say the lifespan of a birch is 40 years or something like that? I think the average, I looked it up online, the average lifespan was like 40 years. So even if the birch trees were still here, they’d be dead. Like if they hadn’t been removed or blown over or cut down or whatever, they’d be dead. Probably,

Fenix
you would have to get lucky, right? And have that like 130 year old woman, birch tree.

George Ward
But let me ask you this. So depending on whether or not we end up with the fifth line, the actual fifth line,

Fenix
like counting left to right,

George Ward
left or right, fifth, front to back counting correctly, depending on whether or not we end up with the fifth line or we end up in a birch tree? How do you know where to dig?

Fenix
That’s a great question.

George Ward
If you’re if you’re digging at the southeast foot of a tree, any tree it doesn’t matter how old the tree is, you’re digging roots. And Byron I don’t think like you got to be an asshole to dig up a bunch of roots and kill a tree just a very a cask. I don’t think he’s going to do that. So how do you know how far away from the thing to dig? How do you know where to dig?

Fenix
Yeah, and let’s let’s talk about that. You know, that’s, that’s a great question. And this was one of those things that I don’t know if I had a revelation. Or I just found an interesting coincidence. I was looking at this verse recently. And I think it’s one of the things that may have spurred the trip. It’s written very strange for a guy that made a career out of literature. I have to assume those people can write well. Because when I look at this, if I start to repeat the same words, in sentences when I’m sending emails, I correct myself, I have an awful grasp of the English language. So why do I do this? And a guy that made a living out of literature doesn’t. So I started to look at the words that repeat three distance foot. And I was like, Oh, shit, did we really miss something that obvious? For 40 years? Three foot distance. That’s a perfect modifier. For the dig spot. You dig at the southern foot. But if you didn’t figure out that clue, you’re still a mile away?

George Ward
Yep. And it’s a very, like, I gotta agree with you. It’s brilliant. Like, that’s correct. It’s brilliant. And I don’t really think there could be any way it’s not correct. Right? Even if you’re, if you’re digging it, the lion. If you’re digging right at its southern foot, you’re hitting the footer of the, of the monument, right? If you’re digging at a tree, you’re hitting the roots of the tree. If you’re digging anywhere, right up against something, you’re hitting something else three feet away. There’s nothing there. That’s just grass.

Fenix
Yep. It got us to put some holes in the ground,

George Ward
and unexplained some of the lines that you thought were, you know, that didn’t mean repetitive. Yeah, exactly. That’s in time, distance and space. What does that mean? Well, it’s distance foot of the culvert. Why does he put that there? Like even even if he just said, pass the compass and read or pass the compass below the bridge? If he wanted you to walk below the bridge? That would be fine, you would understand. But he put the foot of the culvert.

Fenix
I mean, he had to Saurus. Right? Yeah, he got to assume he could have found another word for Foot of a bridge. But of a culvert,

Brett Zingler
from what I know of what a culvert is, isn’t it one of those kind of big pipes where a water runs through underneath a road or something?

Fenix
Yeah, absolutely.

George Ward
There’s one under the bridge where the fifth line is. And then there’s a waterfall where the first four lines are, and we don’t really know if there was a culvert there. But there’s definitely one at the bridge where the fifth line is

Fenix
there, there wasn’t the pipe. Right, but that that area has been redone since so you’d have to assume there was something there.

George Ward
There’s a plaque at the bottom, like I walked that trail, and there’s a plaque at the bottom that explains why that drain was created and how it was created to prevent erosion of the of the trail. And even the plaque calls of the culvert. It calls it a culvert from before it was redone. It’s 100% of culvert. Now, whether or not the waterfall was also a culvert, I’m not sure because there is there’s a physical culvert at the waterfall to I believe, right?

Fenix
Yeah, true. The waterfall was redone. And you have to assume there was something similar there. Even on the opposite side on that northern side of the park. There could have been culverts over there too. You know, it’s it’s tough. It seems like a somewhat obscure line.

Brett Zingler
So I didn’t mean to derail the conversation about the repeated words, thing, because I think that’s boy, is that a good point? And I hadn’t even thought about that. And I you know, as you look at I just kind of was looking through some of the verses, I look at the San Francisco verse or what we think of the San Francisco verse, and it repeats the word giant, you know, at the end, giant pole giant step. Are we supposed to be looking at

Fenix
Giants?

Brett Zingler
Yeah, right. Exactly.

Fenix
I think someone said steeple recently. And I was like, that’s clever. That’s clever. I’ll give you that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there’s going to be a few of these puzzles where, you know, we have almost the whole thing solved. People have a few different spots. Sound familiar? And then there’s just one thing that no one’s looking at, that manipulates that spot. You know, that’s a modifier to the puzzle.

Brett Zingler
Well, like Cleveland, right?

Fenix
Yeah, Cleveland, Cleveland. I look at it that way. You know, that was a modifier. The backwards thing was a modifier. You know, you know, George can explain how it was hinted at throughout the puzzle. But at the end of the day, that’s what it did. It took you to a spot that made absolute logical sense. But unless you got that modifier, it’s the wrong damn spot.

George Ward
This is literally what I wish I could just beat into people’s heads, right. I every day, I get emails from people who want me to go over there, solve them, and they’re all image based. They’re all like, look at this little thing in the painting, which could be something else or whatever. Focus on verse.

Fenix
Yeah, yeah. That’s a tough one, you know, Cleveland and Chicago just screw the population because they are so damn visual. You know, everyone’s like, these puzzles work exactly the same, you know, you take the icon and the path and whatever. But to look at the rest of the images, there’s not a lot in that painting of Milwaukee. City Hall. Big Ask Kate, you know, you can look at other pelan car work, same big escape. Yeah, you know, there’s not much there.

Brett Zingler
I see, like the outline of a state. I think in the bottom left.

Fenix
I talked about seeing some crazy ass faces, you know, you look at it long enough, you can see all kinds of wacko shit, but doesn’t mean it’s true.

Brett Zingler
Maybe that’s why Chicago and Cleveland got the furthest along to where Byron started, or at least with Chicago started communicating and saying, Yeah, you actually got this because it is. So are your close, right? Because it is so image based. And maybe the rest of these just don’t work like that. No, no, by I think,

George Ward
I think Cleveland and Chicago were found because people didn’t have any preconceived notions on how they were found. Like, that’s a good, that’s a good point. Brian, and Andy, and Johan, they didn’t have this huge, vast amount of knowledge of all of the puzzles in this, you know, grand scheme of how they’re solved. Eric and Eric and Rob, they were just having fun. Nothing had been solved. They, you know,

Fenix
the left begs a question, though, George. What kicked them off? Like what was the first thing that they came across that said, Hey, this is Chicago. Hey, this is Cleveland.

George Ward
I mean, I think I think Robin Eric’s I think Rob said that he saw the water tower. And he was like, that’s in Chicago. Yeah. And the image, and then he found the Bowman. And he was like, Oh, I know where that is. And the verse that’s in the image, too. Yeah. And then the verse took over, he didn’t need the image anymore. I mean, aside from the fencepost.

Fenix
So that’s a good point. I mean, you’re right there, though. At that point. It’s kind of like the Greek gardens. You know, once they found those, the wall in the columns, it’s like, get me a shovel. I’ll figure it out, you know?

Brett Zingler
Not that it was easy. No, not at all. I

Fenix
mean, I’m definitely simplifying the whole thing.

George Ward
Maybe people are confused when people say these puzzles all work the same, right? Because what I mean by that is, there’s a verse and there’s a painting, and the painting gives you a general idea. And then the verse of where it is, and the verse takes over. And when I say like, it works like Chicago, maybe people are thinking it’s a little more complicated. Like it works exactly like I don’t know.

Fenix
Yeah, I think of it differently. So when someone tells me, hey, these all work the same, I think they have a template, right? Where they have to have a specific image that confirms the city, a path that takes you to a park. Once you’re in the park, you’re going to see something and you’re going to go a different direction and see something else that’s going to tell you to dig by it. They’re waiting for that big dig here sign, like a halo over a fence posts, or, you know, a wall. That’s exactly the wall, you’re digging it. That’s what I think of so I never thought of it how you you thought of it? Yeah, they’re there. They’re all puzzles. So they’re gonna work somewhat similar. But it may not be textbook, template stuff.

George Ward
Exactly. I mean, they’re all a little different. We know that because some have acrostic. Some don’t. You know, some seem to be taking you on a journey. And some are just like everything you need

Fenix
to do or when you’re reading the wiki again, aren’t you? Journey puzzle?

George Ward
Do they say what I’m what I’m trying to swallow? I didn’t want to say path off of a set path. But that’s, but that’s what I’m trying to say. Like we know they work differently. We know the verses work differently. But in the grand scheme of it, there’s a painting there’s a puzzle, there’s a painting and there’s a verse the painting gives you a general idea of an area and the verse takes you to a cask. So when people come to me and say the painting takes you to the cask, I immediately shut because there’s no possible way I could do that.

Fenix
I’m the only one I would argue that the painting may have a lot of impact on the final location is Houston. I absolutely think it’s a perspective painting. And I have a bad feeling that that jewel may represent the Digg spot. You know, it’s a tricky one. There’s probably a modifier in that one as well. But um, I think that’s long gone. You know, everyone can dig by trees all they want and

George Ward
I Gree with you about Houston. But if I take the verse away, could you solve it?

Fenix
Oh, no way. No way. I wouldn’t I probably wouldn’t even be in Houston. Right? Exactly. It would be arguing if that cropped out. Coordinate is really 96, or whatever it was, does it 96 I think

George Ward
that’s just what I want to beat in to everybody, man. Just look at the verse, focus on the verse.

Fenix
Yeah, I think you have to look at all of it, it’s probably going to be slightly easier to find something new in the verse, because the stuff that people find in the paintings is, is crazy stuff, right? Like I was saying, before you start seeing faces and little minut details that you need to analyze by blowing your image up. It’s probably not right, man.

George Ward
I mean, like, jjp was young, and he was inexperienced, but the man knew what reproduced art

Fenix
looks like. He painted some damn good paintings he did like, but he

George Ward
also knew like this, this, this amount of detail is gonna get lost when you print like he’s, he had stuff. Great. Great. Right? So if he’s had stuff in print, if he’s had experience with this, why do you think you would paint these minut things that he knows are just gonna get lost in the printing process?

Fenix
Yeah. Yeah, you have to ask the question, right? Did he know that there was a possibility that they’d be cropped? You might think you may think so. Right, if he did have Experience is everything on those outer lying edges. Probably not an important clue.

George Ward
You know, there was something that jjp when we, when, when Bradley and I went to the showing jjp was sitting around at the, in the gallery are talking about paintings, and I think Bradley mentioned this on the last podcast, one thing that jjp said was he hates when his art gets reproduced. Because in editing of the book, they always airbrush out fine details, I got to assume that’s the same with the secret, like, you’re gonna airbrush out brush those brush strokes, or you’re going to airbrush out this or that. He said some of his most famous art that’s in some of the highest quality prints, they still airbrush stuff out. He would be planning for this, you know, when he’s making these paintings, he would be planning for touchups he would be planning for, for the printing process losing details, like he’s gonna make whatever clues he needs to make obvious to you.

Brett Zingler
Well, also, the I mean, they saw the final version of it. And if they thought, You know what, I have an original book, I think you guys do too. I mean, if he looked at the book and goes, this is going to be unsolvable. Because they cropped it like this, or they, you know, this, this detail didn’t come out? He could or should have done something about that. Right? Yeah,

George Ward
I mean, Byron would have Myron would have gotten printing proofs before the books were even published, he wouldn’t know exactly what they were going to look like in the right. So are we missing anything?

Brett Zingler
I probably not, in my opinion, is that we’re not that we’ve got what we

Fenix
need. I question it slightly, right? Because, for one thing, and that’s just the size of the paintings, right? They were shrunk down a lot. So even as an artist, if you think your work, you know, stood up to that test, you still lose a little bit, right? Because you know, it’s there. We don’t know what’s there. So you may be able to look at it and say, oh, there’s something in those curls on the side of the Montreal hair. And I’m looking at going What the hell is that? And then I see the paintings the size of my wall. Who knows? You know, you can argue it both both ways. But I think most of the stuff is there. I’ll agree with you it things

Brett Zingler
that are essential for the solves, I think, are there and you know, and otherwise, I think we would have we would know, you know what a man somehow we would have been that would have been communicated.

Fenix
Well, Kip posted something interesting, right? He showed a close up of the Montreal square that has the leg heater in it was pretty cool. If you look at that, I mean, it’s way better than what was on Expedition unknown. There’s some major texture there. Is that paint it doesn’t look like paint goldleaf Yeah, maybe

George Ward
either way we’ve always thought that painting was brown even an expedition unknown that painting looks brown, but now we know it’s gold.

Fenix
I was calling that a golden square for a long time but it just kind of worked to my advantage. Yeah, I didn’t know if I was right.

Brett Zingler
Well, we noticed you immediately put out your your mapping of the of the what is it the golden square mile?

Fenix
Yeah, the square mile you know The interesting thing about that and I don’t know that I ever explained that well the The interesting thing about that is the streets that I put into the squares is the old version right? That was the original version when it was smaller was the square mile. Now if you look at the square, the foot comes outside of the square, but remains gold. So the mount Stevens Club was not in the square mile. It was just outside of the block but it absolutely is in the golden square mile. So that’s how I always explain that but um yeah, man that’s that’s one of my things I don’t see how that’s wrong. It’s pointing at two things it’s pointing out a square and you know that square just happens to be the street that that leg heaters on in St. Louis smack

Brett Zingler
dab in downtown St. Louis.

George Ward
So John, before we before we wind up do you want to talk about what we were we found when we?

Unknown Speaker
You’re still here, yet still, he ate Tova. Go home. Go, go. Go home. And Java gather here. Go home. Alright, leave, leave. I’m calling that couch Dalada fear. Just go go. Go go go.

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George Ward
Brett Zingler
John Hartupee

 

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